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Leif Elggren

Leif Elggren (born 1950, Linköping, Sweden), is a Swedish artist who lives and works in Stockholm.

Active since the late 1970s, Leif Elggren has become one of the most constantly surprising conceptual artists to work in the combined worlds of audio and visual. A writer, visual artist, stage performer and composer, he has many albums to his credits, solo and with the Sons of God, on labels such as Ash International, Touch, Radium and his own Firework Edition. His music, often conceived as the soundtrack to a visual installation or experimental stage performance, usually presents carefully selected sound sources over a long stretch of time and can range from quiet electronics to harsh noise. His wide-ranging and prolific body of art often involves dreams and subtle absurdities, social hierarchies turned upside-down, hidden actions and events taking on the quality of icons.

Together with artist Carl Michael von Hausswolff, he is a founder of the Kingdoms of Elgaland-Vargaland (KREV) where he enjoys the title of king.

History
Elggren spent five years at the Academy of Fine Arts in Stockholm, specializing in drawing, design and bookprinting. In the late ‘70s he began to associate with performance groups, meeting people like Hausswolff and Thomas Liljenberg. With the latter he formed Firework in 1978, a duo that put up exhibitions and performances. Around the same time he purchased a press and started to publish art books. In 1982 he founded Firework Edition, a small publishing company, together with Liljenberg.

In 1988 he formed the duo Guds Söner (The Sons of God) with Kent Tankred, whom he had met four years earlier. The duo excels in creating long, puzzling stage performances that give equal roles to physical action (or inaction) and soundtrack (live or taped) with themes such as violence, love, the quotidian, food and royalty.

Elggren released his first 7" records in 1982 and 1984 on Hausswolff's label Radium. A first solo LP, Flown Over by an Old King, came out in 1988. The inception of Firework Edition in 1996 allowed Elggren to release more of his music and the growing popularity of installation art in avant-garde music circles (thanks to its ties with experimental electronica) has given his work more international exposure since the late ‘90s. Other key solo works include Talking to a Dead Queen (1996) and Pluralis Majestatis (2000).

Together with Hausswolff, Elggren curated the Nordic Pavilion at the Venice Biennale in 2001.

In 2007 he appeared (with John Duncan) at the Netmage festival in Bologna organized by xing and executed "Something Like Seeing in the Dark".

Selected discography

 * Flown Over by an Old King (Radium 226.05, 1988)
 * Talking to a Dead Queen (Fylkingen, 1996)
 * Pluralis Majestatis (Firework Edition, 2000)
 * 9.11 (Desperation Is the Mother of Laughter) (Firework Edition, 2000) with Thomas Liljenberg
 * UGN/MAT (2000) with Per Jonsson and Kent Tankred
 * Two Thin Eating One Fat (Firework Edition, 2000) with Thomas Liljenberg
 * Triangles (Moikai, 2001) with Kevin Drumm
 * Extraction (2002)
 * DEG (Firework Edition, 2002) with Mats Gustafsson and Kevin Drumm
 * The Cobblestone Is the Weapon of the Proletariat (Firework Edition, 2004)
 * Gottesdienst (iDEAL, 2006)
 * Das Baank (Fragment Factory/Rekem Records, 2016)
 * MOTOR for an Unknown Vehicle (Opening of the Grave) (Fragment Factory, 2019)

Compilation appearances

 * Emre (Dark Matter) (2000)
 * suRRism-Phonoethics sPE_0100: Peak the Source Vol.3 (2011), Surrism-Phonoethics
 * 30/4 (2013), Fragment Factory

Interviews

 * interview from Bananafish #16
 * interview from Dusted (2004)
 * interview from Perfect Sound Forever (2005)

title: Leif Elggren


text:
Talk:St. Paul's School (New Hampshire)

Article title
Discussion about the title of this article and its recent change can be found at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (acronyms). Feel free to contribute. -- hike395 16:38, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Copyrights
I'm guessing somebody removed the picture of hockey players next to the New chapel because of copyright issues and not because of the image itself. I'd ask whoever put it up in the first place to put it back, and vouch for it being used fairly. It is the only picture this article had that showed the New Chapel, which is a wonderful building. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.220.23.137 (talk) 23:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I have another picture of the new chapel which I'll try to fit in somewhere. Also, whoever added the definition of bag, please defend it soon; I want to delete it.  Bag is a word used outside of Millville extensively (just like grody) and I think this page wants to be careful of not developing an overgrown lingo section, á la Exeter.  Let's keep the lingo down to SPS-specific words.  Yes, bag is a common word there, commoner than elsewhere, but it only makes sense to define words that no one else would know. Mjl0509 17:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Alumni
Let's try to keep this list down to notable alumni. I haven't heard of half the people on this list; it looks stupid to be like, the following forty unknown people went to SPS. Anyone else got another opinion? (Not that anyone writes on this talkpage) Mjl0509 16:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree with MJL that we should cut down/be more selective with the distinguished alumni list, but somebody recently erased Poker player Annie Duke. Now Annie Duke might not be that well known with most adults, but with the growth of ESPN's annual World Series of Poker and popularity in the sport, especially with a more contemporary audience, her name should definitely remain. She is constantly advertised on television during such poker tournaments, and I think it is an honor for her to be where she is, especially when there are so few female poker players as it is. I don't mean to offend, but I am assuming the person who removed her name either has little knowledge of poker or is possibly of older age, although I might be wrong.  I am re-adding her name to the list, and I hope people will agree to keep it there.  -PND — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.88.124.202 (talk) 22:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, either way, rather than battling it out by removing and then un-removing her (I'm with you on leaving her, incidentally), we should discuss this. If anyone in favor of removing Annie Duke from the alumni page wants to explain, we'd be happy to listen.  See you at Anniversary, whoever else reads this page.  Mjl0509 22:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Why not just create a category for SPS alum? The long list would then be replaced with a link in See Also, but only the info on people who do not otherwise have articles would be lost. Keziah 12:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I am fine with filtering the alumni page, however I think that Annie Duke and Howard Lederer should be added to this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.158.47.87 (talk) 22:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Would anyone be opposed to the replacement of the Alumni section within this page with a category into which Alumni would be added? Keziah (talk) 15:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Create s separate list article. This list is a distraction anyway. It breaks the editorial flow. If they are at least as important as Archibald Cox, then maybe they belong on this page. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:42, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

"Lingo"
To the person who is going to yell at me for removing the section "lingo," I'll save you the time: WP:NOT Urban Dictionary. Paul 07:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I've followed debates quietly on other pages such as the PEA page about lingo and leaving it. If you want to delete the entire lingo section, you're going to have to offer the Wikipedia community more than two lines of justification.  I would caution that this section does not represent original research unverified by published material.  I would direct your attention to a book called "Changes: Life at St. Paul's. 1856-1998."  I'm happy to photocopy pages of it when I can get my hands on it in a week.  For more on Paulie lingo, check out several Grateful Dead histories that discuss Dead lingo that started at St. Paul's.  I'm fine with this page not being an urban dictionary or whatever, but I fail to see the similarities between this documentable (though, admittedly, currently -- on Wikipedia, anyway -- undocumented) research and that collection of personal opinion.  Mjl0509 01:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Almost every "jargon" section has been removed from school articles, even PEA. This is a dead issue in Wikipedia. Nbruschi 17:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Quickly: my point was that, unlike the PEA page, which was "verified" by several PEA students (which was good enough for me personally but is not acceptable by Wikipedia standards), the SPS lingo page is verifiable using several books available. We ought to take this into account.  Mjl0509 22:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV and Advert (tags since removed)
Was the material from this article copied word for word from their website, or was it manufactured by a PR firm? The bias in the article is among the most blatant I have ever seen on Wikipedia. This article is not supposed to be an advertisement or an unabridged account of every aspect of the school, but it reads like a admissions information packet. Here are three steps to fix the problem:

 * 1: State only the facts. Don't go into stuff about how 'some people' feel or make judgments about the school.  Report the facts and let the reader form his own opinions.

 * 2: Avoid the unremarkable. This article delves too deeply into every detail of trivial elements of the school.  Keep to the fundamental institutions and mention the rest in passing.  This article is way too long for its subject; look at the length of other schools' and colleges' articles.

 * 3: Avoid overly obtuse and esoteric prose. Wikipedia is for the masses, not people who go to the school or are looking to go there.  This article is not an advertisement.

Now let's clean it up.

Nbruschi 17:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I've removed what I can tell was clearly not acceptable; anyone who wants to point out more specifics that need to be changed, I'd be much obliged. Mjl0509 22:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * With all due respect to those of you who (justly) tagged this page, please don't just tag it and then dust off your hands and congratulate yourselves on a job well done. I'd love for someone to actually clean up the page.  Mjl0509 03:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you to those who helped with the NPOV problems; I think that this is as close as we will get. I have removed the tags. Nbruschi 16:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a note: I become increasingly disturbed every time I read your comments, Nbruschi. The goal of Wikipedia should not be to present shortened, bland, minimalist articles on the subjects. The founding principle - and to me, beauty - of this website is the fact that if there is an expert on a random subject, they can offer a very detailed article that might get only two lines, if any, in a traditional encyclopedia. Granted, I am a "wiki-layman" when it comes to editing, but if I was heavily involved with this website I would WANT people to look up, say, "St. Paul's" to see details of SPS life that the school website doesn't include. In short, your views are contrary to the spirit of Wiki, and your 'exclusionism', at least from what I've seen here, is self-important and not helpful at all. Jondoodly 21:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

 * It is I who am disturbed by your ability to jump into editing Wikipedia without understanding what it is and isn't. There is no "should" when it comes to the goals of Wikipedia: they exist.  The beauty of Wikipedia is that it can cover any topic and can be reasonably trusted as being correct.  Many spin-offs exist with your inclusionistic attitude and they are all completely unreliable.  Look into the Wikipedia standards and then evaluate if my exclusion of "unverified" or "bias" or "incorrect" information is justified or not.  (hint: it is) Nbruschi 05:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is for the masses, not people who go to the school or are looking to go there."...I completely disagree with this statement, and think it is very naive. Actually, I would argue that many prospective students probably search Wikipedia to learn more about the school. Not only is it an easily accessible resource, but due to the multiple and insightful contributions from existing and former school members, one might find its depth of information about daily life quite interesting and unique. As far as I'm concerned, make the page as long as it needs to be, as long as its not filling up with "dead language." There is nothing advantageous about the "less is more" philosophy here. For a school with over one hundred years of wonderful history and stories, I would expect/hope it would be longer than one or two pages. No need to mimick other boarding school's and college's Wikipedia pages (in terms of length). -PND — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.131.121.109 (talk) 21:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I was thinking of sending my daughter to St. Paul's and, like many, thought Wikipedia the best place to learn more. -- JDG — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.72.34.53 (talk) 21:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Athletics
The statement that the first Hockey game was played at St Paul's is factually incorrect. The first ice hockey games in the U.S. were played at Yale and Johns Hopkins in 1893 (according to the Ice Hockey article in Wikipedia). I cited the squash statement (references should be given in cases like that) but was unsuccessful in determining the validity of the racquets statement. This needs to be referenced or removed. - Nbruschi 22:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm quite sure the first hockey game thing is right, but I'll check up on it. It may be somethign else I'm getting it confused with. - MJL0509 (sorry for not logging in.) — Preceding undated comment added 20:31, 22 June 2006

 * Sorry again for not logging in. I found an attribution on the SPS library's sesquicentennial celebration page.  BTW, according to the page, the SPS athletic association made up rules for ice hockey in 1884 (which would seem to indicate the game was played at least that early at the school.) -MJL0509 — Preceding undated comment added 18:47, 26 June 2006

References require external and unbiased sources. The school web site's claim is unverified and is even contradicted by the Wikipedia article on Ice Hockey and the International Olympic Committee here:. Furthermore, if you search google for "Ice Hockey History" and "St Paul's School," you are met by no usable hits. Because of the lack of evidence for it, and the presence of evidence against it, I am going to remove the statement that the first Ice Hockey game in the United States was played at St Paul's. Don't cherry pick your evidence. Show me external and verifyable evidence from an authoritative source that can combat the other contrary sources and the statement can stay. But until then... - Nbruschi 01:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, shoot. I didn't think that'd be good enough, though I promise I'm not out to 'cherry pick' evidence, nor do I need a lecture in same.  I'll keep looking, and meanwhile, might I suggest that a Google search is neither comprehensive nor conclusive enough to bolster a case. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjl0509 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

 * MJL - I found a website that states that a certain James Potter Conover, an SPS faculty member, traveled to Montreal in 1880-81, witnessed a hockey game, and brought back rules and equipment for use at St. Paul's. Supposedly, the game then developed further, and the alumni took the rules etc. to the ivy league (most likely Yale and Johns Hopkins).  The website is not very authoritative (a squash talk website), but here it is:  .  I hope it helps you in your search for a quality source.  And Nbruschi, I hope this adds at least a shred of evidence for the statement that St. Paul's is the birthplace of American hockey - and I hope you will practice what you preach, and not "cherry pick" your sources AGAINST St. Paul's, as you seem determined to do... - Jondoodly 05:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Me and my cherry-picking with those backwater websites like "The International Olympic Committee" and uh... "Wikipedia"... way to set the example with squashtalk.com, a website devoted to the history of all things... hockey? Don't get me wrong, I can't say for sure whether or not St Paul's was the home to the first hockey game in America, but I can read the resources and they don't help your case. Your "shred of evidence" website addresses SPS as a link for hockey to travel from Canada to the States, but not as the site of the first U.S. game- the fact being debated. St Paul's seems like a wonderful place with a rich history but, unlike you, my bias is towards the facts.

Forever and ever endeavor. - Nbruschi 05:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi Nbruschi, thanks for the inspiration, prickly and impolite though it may be! I found a few references that might pass more muster with you.  If you're still not satisfied, I'll give the school's librarian a call and ask HIM where the school got the info.  CHeck it out:

 * "Last Square Tennis Player: A Chance Discovery Leads the Author to the Champion-for-Life of a Forgotten Sport". Magazine article by James Zug; The Atlantic Monthly, Vol. 289, January 2002
 * "Squash tennis was invented, more or less accidentally, in 1883 at St. Paul's School, in New Hampshire. James P. Conover, the St. Paul's master who also introduced ice hockey to the United States, had ordered rackets and balls from England for his new racquets courts (racquets is an older, faster, deadlier version of squash)..." - Mjl0509 12:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Further evidence the first hockey game in the United States was played at St. Paul's is evidenced by these two sources:
 * Stephen Hardy, "Memory, Performance, and History: The Making of American Ice Hockey at St Paul's School, 1860-1915," International Journal of the History of Sport 14, no. 1 (1995:) 97-115.

and

 * Encyclopedia of Ethnicity and Sports in the United States, by Othello Harris, George B. Kirsch, Claire E. Nolte; Greenwood Press, 2000.
 * "Canadians played a major role in virtually all early U.S. ice hockey activities. While it has not been definitely established where and when the first formal game of ice hockey was played in the United States, records indicate that by the season of 1894-95 the game was being played on an organized basis in Baltimore, Maryland, and Hallock and Minneapolis, Minnesota, and at the St. Paul's School in Concord, New Hampshire... The St. Paul's School, which had been playing ice polo in the 1880s and early 1890s, changed to ice hockey rules for the season of 1894-95. Faculty member James Conover had been instrumental in introducing ice sports at the school after he had made a trip to Montreal to purchase equipment. Coach Malcolm K. Gordon subsequently played a key role in the early development of ice polo and ice hockey at the prestigious New Hampshire school. Gordon is also remembered as the coach of the legendary Hobey Baker, who went on to star at Princeton University."

 * Hopefully that's sufficient... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.103.54.99 (talk) 01:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

"Me and my cherry-picking with those backwater websites like 'The International Olympic Committee' and uh... 'Wikipedia'... "

I hope you realize how ridiculous it is to say that wikipedia can be used as a citation on wikipedia. Because that is exactly what you just said. The Swankster (talk) 02:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Vanity Fair article
Is there some reason all the problems a while back at St. Paul aren't covered?
 * http://www.dispatchesfromthevanishingworld.com/dispatch32/d32_1.html
 * http://www.dispatchesfromthevanishingworld.com/dispatch32/printerD32.pdf

--A. B. (talk) 21:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I mean, if you raelly want to go into all that stuff we can, and we probalby should. Add in a couple sentences in history?  It's hard to acccurately and neutrally sum up that whole thing.  Mjl0509 21:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree with Mjl0509's comments. Mathchem271828 22:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Ballet
If anyone can provide a citation that the ballet program is well-known (I can confirm personally that it is, but am well aware that this is not sufficient), we should add it back. Having people's names on the Wikipedia page is something best left for the SPS website. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mjl0509 (talk • contribs) 04:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

RFK
First of all, the rumor was always JFK, no? And second of all, he didn't graduate. Third, do you have any substantiation of that? Mjl0509 15:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

 * It was RFK for like a month before he left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.104.229.66 (talk) 23:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Daily Life section
I think it makes more sense to have it be separate from the Millville section which is about the campus and grounds as such. (Perhaps changing the title of that section to Campus or Grounds would make more sense?) Also, the formatting was funky. Other thoughts? Mjl0509 15:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Hazing
I am probably not the most impartial judge of this, since I was a senior at the time the hazing incidents occurred, but I a) don't think they're notable historically (way, way worse hazing "scandals" happened in the mid-nineties, and if we're going by whether major media outlets reported on things, the kid who was kicked out in 2002 for dealing drugs made it into the Boston Globe, if I'm remembering correctly), and b) think that if we are going to include the incidents, they should be in history, not traditions.

Reviewing my previous posts here on the talk page, no one else seems to be very interested in discussing changes, but let me know if you feel otherwise. Mjl0509 13:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Sps shield.jpg
Image:Sps shield.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

ASP Advanced Studies Program
I think that we might be amiss to leave out any mention Saint Paul's summer program. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WittyQuote (talk • contribs) 18:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I think that's a great idea. I know literally nothing about it. Mjl0509 (talk) 15:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Under the History section?
 * St. Paul's School founded the Advanced Studies Program (ASP) in 1958. The summer residential learning program is designed for New Hampshire students entering their senior year of high school.
 * Zue Jay (talk)  18:17, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, wouldn't it be better as its own section, with a sentence about history in there? Or, how about: add everything except the founding date to the lead paragraph of the story, like "the school also runs blah blah blah" and then add the 1958 thing to the history. Mjl0509 (talk) 04:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

 * I would agree that it deserves its own section, with maybe a list of classes and teachers that are fairly constant, maybe something about the scheduling, if someone has been invited to apply this year their handbook probably has enough information to use for this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WittyQuote (talk • contribs) 16:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Going downhill
I'm really reluctant to make the hackneyed "In my day" case, but the latest vandalism really speaks poorly to the quality of the current student body. Chapel and seated are wastes of time?? Shame on you, whoever decided to place that on teh intertubes. Mjl0509 (talk) 00:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Or they're, you know, outdated, poorly implemented traditions being clung to for the sake of tradition itself rather than any intrinsic benefits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.104.229.66 (talk) 02:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

top importance
I go to hotchkiss so i really have no reason to want SPS to be ranked a top importance school but I think it aught to be I mean St. pauls is like one of the best schools in the world it's a disgrace for all of the english public schools to get higher importance ratings while our American prep schools are underrated despite our school's superior quality as evinced by IVY league admissions as opposed to lame Oxbridge admission rates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.6.214.3 (talk) 17:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

St. Paul's in Popular Culture
I propose adding a St. Paul's in Pop Culture section, or alternatively, St. Paul's in Print and St. Paul's in Film sections, like Exeter. Got the idea while reading Wallace Stegner's Pulitzer Prize Winning Angle of Repose this evening. I know there are many others. Thoughts? DeKreeft27 7:42, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Whoa, didn't realize SPS is in there. The only issue would be, would there be enough to fill a section?  I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head... Mjl0509 (talk) 04:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

 * I'd imagine that if alumni works counted you could get quite a few more. The Swankster (talk) 22:04, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Bonfire of the Vanities protganist went to St. Pauls also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.104.229.66 (talk) 02:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Rick Moody graduated from St. Paul's. His book The Ice Storm, which was also made into a film, features a boarding school student named Paul. Paul seems to be an SPS student, but I have not yet found a link for verifiability.TVC 15 (talk) 12:21, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Cfd
There is a current cfd on the alumni category. Occuli (talk) 14:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Sculpture in the chapel
I added a link to John Angel (sculptor) and a reference. Both have been removed. So that we are not unclear, here is another reference which specifies the work that was being mentioned.

Put it back, put it somewhere else, or not as you will. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:12, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

 * I have no opinion as to whether a reference to the John Angel sculpture belongs in the article, but I am quite certain it does not belong in the caption of the photo of the New Chapel, which should be remain a very brief description of the associated photo. If others want to re-insert this reference somewhere more appropriate, I have no problem with that.  Ebikeguy (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

 * I've offered you alternatives. I understand your POV on the caption. It is up to you and those other editors interested in this article. Which doesn't include me.  I have proposed. You may dispose.  7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:30, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Reference does not back claim
"The school is one of only six remaining 100% residential boarding schools in the U.S.[9]"

But reference 9 only profiles five (not even 6!) boarding schools. It never says they are the only ones. If no other reference can be found, this claim should be dropped. GeneCallahan (talk) 01:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

 * I just did a little research: the claim is almost certainly false: http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/highest_percentage_boarding_students/sort/1

 * That link list 26 100% boarding schools, most of them in the US. I will remove the claim. GeneCallahan (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

 * Actually, the source does state that St. Paul's is one of only 6. The source does not need to list all 6. However, your link does show 26 schools which have 100% boarding, and the sources are one and the same between the 6 claim and your link.  Therefore, the question becomes is there a difference between "residential boarding", which is the current reference, versus "boarding", which is your list?  I don't have a dog in this hunt, but think, since the same source is referenced for both claims, that their might be a difference between the two, and then both statements might be correct.Onel5969 (talk) 02:18, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Senior Salute
The names of the students, and blow by blow accounts of testimony, are inappropriate, as is spin from either the prosecutor or the school. The subject is the school and its culture. It is what it is. We have no article on the alleged rape; that is not notable, thousands of similar incidents occur every day in the United States; they are not notable, nor are the victims or alleged perps. It is the location of the alleged offenses that make the matter notable. User:Fred Bauder Talk 09:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

 * In that regard, I'm thinking a separate article on Labrie would be appropriate given the amount of news coverage this case has gotten. I recently tried to create one but it didn't work.  And, of course, the level of news coverage, whether one agrees with it or not, is highly pertinent in determining notability. Tom Cod (talk) 19:47, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

 * Note the letter from Boulder, Colorado here. User:Fred Bauder Talk 10:23, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

 * It is clearly a highly notable story. It has been covered by all major mainstream media outlets on a daily basis and was the top story on every network's nightly newscast following the verdict. Further, the incident happened on campus as part of a long-standing custom. Lootbrewed (talk) 07:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Notability on Wikipedia is defined by multiple reliable sources; however, editorial discretion is also involved. The incident itself is common as dirt; which is what outrages the girl's parents, paying $50,000 for what they could have gotten by letting their daughter join a street gang. User:Fred Bauder Talk 07:48, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * I certainly agree that sexual assaults on school campuses are very common. However, what's not common about this particular incident is the extremely wide coverage by mainstream media, including the highest quality sources. And it was all part of a school "custom", with the incident happening on campus. Should the media have covered it as closely as they have? Probably not. But because they did, it's now a significant event in the school's history that can't be erased, either literally or figuratively. This custom, or whatever one calls it, was clearly a part of the culture at the school, regardless of how covert or inappropriate it was. Lootbrewed (talk) 08:13, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Any source for "long-lasting custom?" The only source I saw was the testimony by the dean of students that he had heard of it in spring 2013. User:Fred Bauder Talk 07:43, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * I actually said "long-standing custom", but there's really no difference. And, yes, the dean of students said it, but Labrie's own attorney also said it. He said, per the New York Times (current source 43) and others, "the girl chose to accept his invitation to the “senior salute,” which he described as an old tradition that many young students joined with pride". The headline of that story even calls it a "Rite at St. Paul's". I've read and heard several other references to it being a longtime "custom" or "tradition". Keep in mind, though, that the article doesn't allude at all to how long it's been around. Lootbrewed (talk) 08:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Current source 42 from the New York Times also says that Labrie's attorney said, "the senior salute was a longstanding tradition at the school". Lootbrewed (talk) 08:28, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Publication in The New York Times does not render one individual's assertion into a fact. User:Fred Bauder Talk 08:49, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia's priority is verifiability, not truth. The content is well sourced and gives proper context with regard to Senior Salute. The school's own dean also said it's a long tradition. Lootbrewed (talk) 08:57, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * When you cite "The school's own dean" are you citing the testimony of the dean of students or some other source? Wikipedia verifiability requires a reliable source. We barely have that if only the court testimony of one dean of students is the actual source. User:Fred Bauder Talk 09:49, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes, a St. Paul's dean. His exact title is irrelevant. The important point is that a St. Paul's administrator made that acknowledgement. And your edit summary that said "Poorly sourced material which makes the school look bad" is highly inappropriate. Not only is calling the New York Times "poorly sourced" outrageous, but basing your editing decisions on what makes a subject look good or bad is a violation of one of the most basic tenets of editing. As editors, it is not our concern about what makes a subject look good or bad. Our only concern should be about making sure that only encyclopedic, well sourced content is included. And for the record, the fact that Labrie's attorney said that has been published in numerous reliable sources. It obviously gives relevant context to school's "custom" that precipitated the incident. Lootbrewed (talk) 18:12, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

The exact source is the dean of students, who testified, not that the Senior Salute was a "tradition", but that he became aware of it, and its sexual nature in Spring 2013 (material you removed from the article). Tradition has connotations of being somehow official, part of school tradition. We have no evidence dating to prior to Spring 2015. By the way, that last revert was past 3RR. Poorly sourced information that defames a person is covered by WP:BLP; analogous principles apply to all editing. User:Fred Bauder Talk 21:29, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * First this is not a BLP article. It's about an institution. And you should take a look at your own number of reverts in the past day. The content at issue is about an event, which is properly sourced. Traditions may be sanctioned or unsanctioned. This one was obviously unsanctioned, although there was testimony detailing how faculty were quite aware of it, with it even being referred to at school meetings. Clearly, there are a large number of quality sources available which use "tradition" or similar words to describe it. How long has Senior Salute existed? We simply don't know. But a tradition, by definition, is a custom or belief that is passed on over more than a short period of time. We even have sourced content about how the names of participants on a wall were painted over each year by the school. In any case, my only concern is assuring that only reliably-sourced, encylopedic content is included. Are you an alumnus of St. Paul's? Lootbrewed (talk) 21:50, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * South High School (Denver), class of 1960 User:Fred Bauder Talk 18:51, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

 * My interest is more sociological than anything else; I read Shamus Khan's book Privilege: The Making of an Adolescent Elite at St. Paul's School. According to Khan boys on scholarship, like Owen Labrie, sometimes don't fit in because they try too hard rather than having, or acquiring, the ease associated with successful socialization at St. Paul's. Seems to be true in his case. User:Fred Bauder Talk 19:05, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

 * You said, "The exact source is the dean of students, who testified, not that the Senior Salute was a "tradition", but that he became aware of it, and its sexual nature in Spring 2013". You are simply wrong. He did in fact say it was a "tradition". Per the Concord Monitor: "Chad Green, dean of students at St. Paul’s, testified late Monday that he was aware of the senior salute tradition, having learned about it in spring 2013." Lootbrewed (talk) 22:25, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * A tradition would have to be longer lived than one year. User:Fred Bauder Talk 18:51, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Exactly. That's why witnesses said it was a tradition. That's why the dean of students said it was a tradition (contrary to what you claimed). That's why both the defense and prosecution said it was a tradition. Most importantly, that's why the sources say it was a tradition. Lootbrewed (talk) 19:09, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

 * The Concord Monitor used the word "tradition" to summarize the dean's testimony. We don't have the transcript to know if that's the word the dean used. The Monitor has done its share of purple prose covering this case. --Ken Gallager (talk) 12:46, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

 * We don't need a transcript (which is a primary source); all that matters is that a countless number of high-quality, reliable, secondary sources say it was a tradition (or other synonymous description). And your personal opinion about the Monitor's coverage of the story is irrelevant. They are unisputably a reliable, mainstream source. Lootbrewed (talk) 20:29, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes, remarkable for a small-town newspaper. However, there is still no reliable source for the Senior Salute being a tradition. Please see Tradition, and other definitions of tradition. I would like to revert back to the sentence describing the testimony of the dean of students without putting any particular label on it, defining it rather in operational terms. User:Fred Bauder Talk 16:35, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you claim "there is still no reliable source for the Senior Salute being a tradition", when there are obviously many. Perhaps it has something to do with your prior talk page comment, "when I began editing the article there was no, zero, negative information in the article", I don't know. In any case, we as editors do not and cannot exclude encyclopedic and properly sourced conent simply because it's "negative". The is an encylopedia article, not a school fan club. In any case, the following are just a few of many high quality sources that call Senior Salute a "tradition". I've attached several of them to the applicable content. They are in addition to the sources that already existed in the article. Lootbrewed (talk) 03:40, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * CNN: "Rape trial draws attention to St. Paul's prep school 'Senior Salute' tradition" (headline) and "a campus tradition known as the "Senior Salute""
 * The Boston Globe: "a “senior salute” tradition"
 * Yahoo News: "a tradition called Senior Salute"
 * CBS News: "a tradition of sexual conquest called Senior Salute"
 * MSNBC: "a school tradition called 'Senior Salute'"
 * The Washington Post: "this was a different, sordid kind of tradition"

 * I have not viewed all the articles you reference, but The Washington Post use of "tradition" is an example of irony not assertion of a fact. Such subtle literary devices have no place here. User:Fred Bauder Talk 10:08, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure what is motivating your denial of the obvious, but it actually doesn't matter because you are not the judge and jury on sources that are universally deemed high quality and reliable. And I'm sure you well know that there are dozens more good sources that say it was a tradition; the above was merely a sampling of them. Even some headlines allude to it being a tradition, such as CNN's ("Rape trial draws attention to St. Paul's prep school 'Senior Salute' tradition"). Nevertheless, there are already more than enough proper sources being used. So I'll move on to a more productive conversations. Lootbrewed (talk) 17:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Please listen to this segment on Morning Edition User:Fred Bauder Talk 15:31, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

 * That two-minute piece simply says some St. Paul's parents heard or believe it wasn't a tradition; it is not the source (NPR) saying it wasn't a tradition. On the other side, the overwhelming number of mainstream reliable sources that have alluded to Senior Salute actually describe it as a tradition. The only unknown among them is exactly how long the tradition has existed. Again, verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three core content policies. When most of the high quality sources report and use the word "tradition" (or a synonmyous word) to describe it, then that's what we as encylopedia editors go with. As WP:UNDUE tells us, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources" (emphasis added). Of course, no editor should take this particular issue personally; I actually don't care one bit whether it was a tradtion or not. My only concern is what the reliable sources say. Most of the them say it was a tradition. If most of them said it was not a tradition, I would just as passionately defend that content being used in the article. If any editor tries hard enough, they can probably find a few sources that say whatever they want them to say about a particular subject. I would be surprised, though, if anyone could find more than one or two - or possibily even any - high quality sources that actually state Senior Salute was not a tradition. Having said all that, I would be willing to discuss including a brief follow-up sentence that points out that some people claim Senior Salute was not a tradition. Lootbrewed (talk) 19:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Assertions by counsel in contested cases are not reliable sources; publication of such assertions by reliable sources does not convert them to reliable sources, see Fact laundering. That would be true even if, as in these cases, the unverifiable information had not originated in the testimony of one St. Paul's staff member. Only information from reliable sources needs to be given coverage. Material from unreliable sources should not be included in the first place. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:54, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Please reeducate yourself on what defines a reliable source on Wikipedia. Then, if you believe any of the sources used in the section are not reliable, feel free to report it to the WikiProject Schools coordinators. Lootbrewed (talk) 19:38, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

"The only unknown among them is exactly how long the tradition has existed." Exactly. If it's only been around for the length of time of the students involved in this case, it's not a tradition, and a different term should be used. News sources cited above were merely reporting testimony; the term "tradition" was of minor importance to the overall facts of the case, and less weight should be given to each source's reflexive use of the word. NHPR, on the other hand, which is a reliable local news source, decided to actually investigate the meaning of the concept of "tradition" and called it into question. Mere numbers of cites is a mechanical way of looking at the sources; examine the context of the sources given as well. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Craig Anderson
The content about Craig Anderson regarding his prior work, the person who replaced him, and his nickname (totally trivial) is clearly not worthy of inclusion in an encylopedia. Just because something in sourced does not at all mean it's important enough to be in an encylopedia. It's about the value of the content, not the quality of the source. I left the relevant content about the incident itself, what he was accused of, and the result. The rest of it is extraneous. I also removed the wikilink for his name since the likelihood of there ever being an article for him at this point is very unlikely. Lootbrewed (talk) 08:46, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * I seem no reason to remove any of it; interesting details like his nickname are often included, as is professional background. You also remove the resolution of the matter, as respects the school. Please keep in mind that when I began editing the article there was no, zero, negative information in the article. User:Fred Bauder Talk 4:57 am, Today (UTC−4)

 * "Interesting" doesn't matter at all. All that matters is if the content is encylopedic. Clearly, a non-notable person's nickname is purely trivial, so while "Bish" may be interesting to St. Paul's insiders, it's of no value to an encylopedia article or its readers. And his background and the person who replaced him have absolutely no relevance to the controversy he was involved in. All that matters is what did he do that makes it important enough to include it here, and how was it handled. I didn't remove the resolution; it still says, "There was an investigation by the Attorney General of New Hampshire which resulted in a settlement agreement and an audit by the IRS." Frankly, I debated whether any of the Anderson content should remain. Lootbrewed (talk) 09:19, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * The cited sources included the "interesting" material. Publication in reliable sources is the threshold for notability, thus being encyclopedic. Anderson was an Episcopalian highmuckymuck; his prior positions establish that and support the red link (liking or not liking red links is not a matter worthy of being the subject of serious controversy; there may, or may not be, a policy). Our readers include anyone interested in elite education, an extraordinarily broad demographic, who may be interested in just such details, as well as St Paul insiders, itself a demographic in the thousands, as well as anyone in the Episcopal Church and the congregations in communion with it. The central theme is lodging responsibility in organizational leaders, bishops, and the nature of that leadership. That theme is embedded in the word "episcopal." User:Fred Bauder Talk 09:42, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * When you say something like "Publication in reliable sources is the threshold for notability", you are completely misunderstanding what determines if content in worthy of inclusion in a Wikipedia article (or any encylopedia). Obviously, just because something is published doesn't mean it's encylopedic. Otherwise, everything that's ever been published in reliable sources would qualify for inclusion. There are trillions of "interesting" facts that have no business being in an enyclopedia. In terms of red links, they are only to be used for subjects that are likely to, or clearly should, have an article created soon. Lootbrewed (talk) 17:55, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Publication in a reliable source is a necessary, but not sufficient condition, for inclusion in an article. The student body referred to Anderson as "the Bish," with connotations of popularity. Such a fact is relevant to the article. User:Fred Bauder Talk 21:38, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * No, his nickname nor his popularity are relevant in the least. And it is, quite frankly, ludicrous to claim that a nickname connotes popularity. Obviously, a nickname can have a positive or negative connotation. Nevertheless, his popularity level is completely meaningless. The only important facts are that he was an administrator that was accused of wrongdoing, investigated, and forced to retire. Period. This is an encylopedia for the world, not just alum of St. Paul's. Readers do not care or need to know that he was called "The Bish". And of course mere publication of something is not sufficient in and of itself; that's what I have been trying to explain to you. Lootbrewed (talk) 22:09, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Other discussions
Lootbrewed has started, or attempted to start, discussions at User_talk:Kudpung and User_talk:Mdann52. User:Fred Bauder Talk 08:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Another has been added at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dennis_Brown&diff=prev&oldid=679951324 User:Fred Bauder Talk 21:45, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes, I was concerned about a lot of the article's content possibly not being enyclopedic and so asked the coordinators of WikiProject Schools to read this entire article to provide feedback about which content is or is not enyclopedic. tedder provided his detailed assessment (below) and asked that it be pasted here. I agree with all of his points and have edited the article accordingly. With regard to the socialization content, I also feel none of it probably belongs in the article. However, I simply reduced it and merged it into the daily life/culture section, although I would likely not oppose other editors who think it should be removed entirely. I do think the content is interesting, but that content applies to many schools, as tedder stated, and it clearly gives undue weight to one person's opinion. Lootbrewed (talk) 19:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Comments from Tedder:
 * I've seen worse too. Here's my feedback from reviewing [this version https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=St._Paul%27s_School_(New_Hampshire)&oldid=679282915]:

Feel free to edit this for formatting and context and paste it into the school's talk page if you like. I don't want to be involved any more directly, but I thought it was worthwhile to give my feedback. tedder (talk) 17:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There's an EL in the history section, which is generally not appropriate
 * I'm okay with everything else, generally speaking, through the bottom of the "dormitories" section. In other words, it seems encyclopedic and appropriate.
 * The school days/hours are only unique because of school on Saturday. The exact hours/schedules are inappropriate otherwise. In fact, the only things that are relevant in that section are 'Saturday' and 'Harkness method'.
 * "Socialization"? Um. I'm mildly biased against including any of it, mostly because what is described is fairly standard upper-class Western culture. If St. Paul's was replaced with Yale it would ring true.
 * I don't see anything in Traditions that is worthy of keeping.
 * The 'controversies' are generally fine. Well-sourced. I'd suggest integrating them into the History (see WP:CRIT, though I'm not all-in on that).
 * Athletics is fine. It's actually a model of the appropriate level of information.
 * Advanced Studies is .. almost completely unencyclopedic. If well-sourced, the approximate size and admission rate could be kept, but that doesn't warrant a full section.

 * Sorry, but talking about an article and changes regarding it isn't done on the talk pages of individual editors. It's done at the article talk page, out in the open, and transparent, with consensus being the final result.  Individuals alone do not give permission for large portions of content being taken out of articles.  When someone reverts what you took out, the next step is to discuss per WP:BRD at the article talk page, not go forum shopping at the talk pages of various administrators as is now being done by  with  and  here and here, respectively.  My comments regarding the chain of events with this article are found at Tedder's talk page: "here are the comments I left on Kudpung's talk page after Lootbrewed's blanket removal of content and edit warring behavior after the removal was reverted: . My comments at 's talk page regarding same are here: .  For some reason, Lootbrewed believes the discussion at Kudpung's talk page was a carte blanche to remove a large amount of content at the St. Paul's article; that Kudpung alone okay-ed the content removal. I can't say I've ever seen something like this before in Wikipedia.  One editor (allegedly) making a decision without consensus and another editor taking that as license to gut an article.  Since Lootbrewed has dragged you into this, I'd be interested in your take on all of it.  In spite of Lootbrewed's obvious attempt to poison the well against me here, none of what's going on has anything to do with any past transgressions I may or may not have committed.  At this point, it's about what I see as disruptive editing on Lootbrewed's part and his claim that an admin told him to do it.".  Further discussion about this article and the major changes Lootbrewed has started edit warring over need to take place here in the future, not at the talk pages of editors.  -- WV ● ✉ ✓  20:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Any editor may revert content that is not in line with polices or guidelines. That is why the vast majority of reverted content is done unilaterally, with no discussion at all and certainly no consensus. I, however, chose not to unilaterally make the changes until after I sought the input of the editor who oversees all of the articles about schools (who also happens to be an administrator). Do you think you know more than Tedder about what's appropriate or not for a school article? When an editor reverts content that doesn't belong, in lines with policies or guidelines about what's important enough to be in an encylopedia, it is not to be reverted back. It's supposed to go to the talk page for discussion. Until the then, the original reverts are supposed to stand based on the originally stated objections. In this case, we have far more than that; a thorough evaluation and explanation by a highly qualified editor of school articles - the school articles coordinator himself. Your inappropriate behavior is well documented and has been addressed recently by multiple administrators, as pointed out to Tedder. Lootbrewed (talk) 21:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

WSPS
WSPS User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:44, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Thank you, Lootbrewed. User:Fred Bauder Talk 21:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

 * My pleasure, Fred. Lootbrewed (talk) 22:47, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Editing disputes
User:Lootbrewed has entered into a number of editing disputes with respect to this article. Those need to be resolved before embarking on wholesale revisions of the article. Not reverting Lootbrewed's edits is not a sign of acquiescence in them. Please address the prior issues regarding your editing of the controversies section. In most cases Lootbrewed has responded with alphabet soup rather than with rational arguments. The point Tedder makes about integrating the controversies section into the history section is sound. I'll think about how to do that. A separate section is not the best form, for subtle, but good, reasons. User:Fred Bauder Talk 21:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

page locked, edit warring
Stop the edit warring. I've locked the page for three days. There are some suspicious IP edits and some clear edit warring among registered users. If it continues after the page protection ends, consider this your warning against disruptive editing/edit warring.

Going forward, deletions/reverts/re-additions of sections should only occur after reaching a consensus on the talk page.

Note I've given my opinion about what content on the article is encyclopedic. That isn't a ruling on what should happen- nor does that seem to fully support the 'sides' of this conflict. tedder (talk) 23:53, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Socialization
Sociological descriptions of anything have a "To a Louse" flavor that does not comport with its self-image. Nevertheless it may be good science. As there is only one study done by one participant-observer, the summary of the study is ascribed to him, not presented as fact. User:Fred Bauder Talk 14:39, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Another source, not specific to St. Paul's is http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/09/23/why-are-working-class-kids-less-likely-to-get-elite-jobs-they-study-too-hard-at-college/ User:Fred Bauder Talk 22:01, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Socialization
Why is this section here? I think it is out of place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.74.88.91 (talk) 17:27, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

High powered scholarship on St Paul's
The Khan book is solid scholarship --and has been very well reviewed. It is cited by 518 diffgerent scholarly books, journals and articles says Google Scholar at https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=963362377158792015&as_sdt=5,27&sciodt=0,27&hl=en. It's by a scholar who is now chair of the sociology department at Columbia University. The critic here who denounces the book in edit summaries says he is currently a student at the school. Years AFTER graduating Khan came back and he spent several years studying the scene and interviewed hundreds of students, faculty and alumni. Then he gave papers at leading sociology departments to get feedback. That is exactly the sort of WP:RS based on years of hard work that has been recognized at the Ivy League level that Wikipedia depends upon. Is it a surprise that the school is highly oriented toward  privilege and prestige?? Going there is the height of "privilege" in USA. Rjensen (talk) 12:48, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

"...the austere, bucolic countryside"?
Under the heading "History", the second sentence reads "Shattuck wanted his boys educated in the austere, bucolic countryside." This is awkward because "austere" and "bucolic" are somewhat antonymic, since "austere" means "without luxury or ease", "severe", "grave", "strict" or "forbidding", whereas "bucolic" means "idyllic" and "pastoral". Since no source seems to be given for this odd pairing of words, I wonder if someone can choose a better pair. Thanks. Bricology (talk) 02:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 25 November 2019
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move as proposed. There appears to be consensus against pre-emptive disambiguation. Should another school in one of these localities have an article created on them and it passes organisational notability guidelines, another requested move discussion can take place as to whether there is a primary topic or whether further geographical disambiguation is required. (closed by non-admin page mover)  SITH   (talk)   11:10, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

– As listed on the St. Paul's School disambiguation page, Wikipedia has no articles of two or more St. Paul's School's in the same US state. Including the city names in article titles is redundant and naming could be clearer with only the state names. Junk2711 (talk) 18:02, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * St. Paul's School (Concord, New Hampshire) → St. Paul's School (New Hampshire)
 * St. Paul's School (Covington, Louisiana) → St. Paul's School (Louisiana)
 * St. Paul's School (Brooklandville, Maryland) → St. Paul's School (Maryland)
 * St. Paul's School (Princeton, New Jersey) → St. Paul's School (New Jersey)
 * St. Paul's School (Garden City, New York) → St. Paul's School (New York)
 * St. Paul's School (Meredithville, Virginia) → St. Paul's School (Virginia)

 * Support per conciseness. (I have a vague fear there might be some obscure wikiproject guideline that mandates this extra disambiguation, but if it exists, I can't find it.) Colin M (talk) 20:11, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

 * Support for same reason. By now if a US school of similar notability doesn't have an article, it probably will continue not to have one. No need to preemptively disambiguate. --Ken Gallager (talk) 20:25, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose St Paul's school is highly generic, doubt there is only one per state. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:23, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment That may be for some states. Perhaps people could offer evidence. There is only one St. Paul's in New Hampshire, however. If people find counter-examples in other states, perhaps this move request could be split up. --Ken Gallager (talk) 14:04, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

 * Comment I think notability is also an important issue. If there is no Wikipedia article of the matching name in the same state, is there a need for further disambiguation just because we "doubt there is only one per state"? For example, if there is an article called "Johnny Johnson (actor)" should we just pre-emptively change it to "Johnny Johnson (actor born 1978)" because there might be another actor named Johnny Johnson who clearly is not as notable and does not have an article? I'm not sure how the relevant guideline would apply but perhaps somebody could share that.
 * Maybe it would make sense to only move the cases where we know for sure are the only ones in their state, and the other cases can remain with the city name included. Just for comparison, there are two articles for St. Paul's School's in London - the more notable and central one is called St. Paul's School, London rather than "St. Paul's School, Barnes, London." The less notable on is called St. Paul's School, Winchmore Hill rather than "St. Paul's School, Winchmore Hill, London" - essentially making for more concise naming. --Junk2711 (talk) 21:29, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

New lead section
I've changed the article's lead section a good deal and would like to hear others' thoughts - is there anything that's been overlooked in making these changes? Thanks. -Editchi (talk) 22:46, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

As I stated clearly here months ago, I would be more than happy to hear thoughts and suggestions on the lead. For example, I think there needs to be a section included about controversies but I’m not exactly sure how much to include there. There is likely much more that can be improved which is why I would appreciate input here.

In regards to the edit in question - one of the main objectives with a lead is establishing the subject of the article’s notability early on. This school’s “eliteness” is perhaps the most notable thing about it - and more often than not in a negative connotation now. The concept of “elite” is referred to throughout the article, talking about the school’s original purpose, its student body, its social culture, and perhaps notably its perception as such in the context of current controversies.

More importantly, I have looked over the essay at WP:BOOSTER and have not noticed a direct example here. It is likely that I might have missed something so I would appreciate if any such case could be pointed out. For example, use of the word ‘selective’ here refers to the type of school and the relevant Wikipedia article is linked as such. -Editchi (talk) 16:44, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * The Sheldon Building at St. Paul's School (New Hampshire).jpg

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Wiki Education assignment: Medical missionaries to Community Partners
— Assignment last updated by Remy.2005 (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:St. Paul's School (New Hampshire)


text:
Annie Easley

Annie Easley (April 23, 1933 – June 25, 2011) was an African American computer scientist and mathematician who made critical contributions to NASA's rocket systems and energy technologies.

Easley's early work involved running simulations at NASA's Plum Brook Reactor Facility and studying the effects of rocket launches on earth's ozone layer. She taught herself assembly programming using languages like Formula Translating System (Fortran) and the Simple Object Access Protocol (SOAP) to help with these simulations. She would also work on developing code used in researching and analyzing alternative power technologies like batteries and fuel systems, which would be later used in hybrid vehicles and NASA's Centaur upper-stage rocket.

Childhood and Education
Annie Easley was born to Samuel Bird Easley and Mary Malvina Hoover in Birmingham, Alabama. She had a brother six years her senior. Her mother raised them as a single mother.

Before the Civil Rights Movement, educational and career opportunities for African-American children were very limited. Segregation was prevalent, African-American children were educated separately from white children, and their schools were often inferior to white schools. Annie's mother told her that she could be anything, but she would have to work at it. She encouraged Annie to get a good education. From the fifth grade through high school, Annie attended Holy Family High School, and was valedictorian of her graduating class. At a young age Annie had interest in becoming a nurse, but around the age of 16 she decided to study pharmacy.

In 1950, Easley enrolled in classes at Xavier University in New Orleans, an African-American Catholic university, and majored in pharmacy for about two years. She left Xavier to get married and moved to Cleveland, Ohio.

In 1977, she obtained a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics from Cleveland State University.

Career
In 1955, Easley read a story in a local newspaper about twin sisters who worked for the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA) as "computers". She applied for a job the next day, and was hired two weeks later, becoming one of four African Americans out of about 2500 employees. She began her career as computer at the NACA Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory (which became NASA Lewis Research Center, 1958–1999, and subsequently the John H. Glenn Research Center) in Cleveland. Later after electronic computers started being used at NASA her title changed to mathematician and computer technician. Even with a degree, Easley also had to complete internal specialization courses to be considered a professional at NASA. Easley was denied financial aid that other employees received for education, without explanation from the agency. She also noted that she did not feel that her pay was very high when she first started with two years of college. Although she was promised a GS-3 in her interview, her first paycheck was a GS-2, and when she questioned it she was told there were no more GS-3s available.

Easley's outreach for minorities did not end with her volunteer work at college career days. At NASA she took upon herself to be an Equal Employment Opportunity (EEO) counselor. This was one of the formal ways that she helped her supervisors at NASA address discrimination complaints from all levels. She was also part of a recruitment effort on behalf of NASA for engineering students from numerous colleges.

Her 34-year career included developing and implementing computer code that analyzed alternative power technologies, supported the Centaur high-energy upper rocket stage, determined solar, wind and energy projects, and identified energy conversion systems and alternative systems to solve energy problems. During the 1970s Easley worked on a project examining damage to the ozone layer. With massive cuts in the NASA space program, Easley began working on energy problems; her energy assignments included studies to determine the life use of storage batteries, such as those used in electric utility vehicles. Her computer applications have been used to identify energy conversion systems that offer the improvement over commercially available technologies. Following the energy crisis of the late 1970s, Easley studied the economic advantages of co-generating power plants that obtained byproducts from coal and steam. After retiring in 1989, she remained an active participant in the Speaker's Bureau and the Business & Professional Women's association. Despite her long career and numerous contributions to research, she was cut out of NASA's promotional photos. In response to one such event, Easley responded by saying "I'm out here to do a job and I knew I had the ability to do it, and that's where my focus was, on getting the job done. I was not intentionally trying to be a pioneer."

Easley's work with the Centaur project helped lay the technological foundations for future space shuttle launches and launches of communication, military and weather satellites. Her work contributed to the 1997 flight to Saturn of the Cassini probe, the launcher of which had the Centaur as its upper stage.

Annie Easley was interviewed in Cleveland on August 21, 2001, by Sandra Johnson. The interview is stored in the National Aeronautics and Space Administration Johnson Space Center Oral History Program. The 55 page interview transcript includes material on the history of the Civil Rights Movement, Glenn Research Center, Johnson Space Center, space flight, and the contribution of women to space flight. In that same Interview, Easley was asked whether she still played with gadgets and stated "I don't have the time or the desire. I will get the email and I'll send it, but I don't play with it. It's not like this fascinating thing I play with. I'd much rather be out doing something actively, like on the golf course or doing other things."

Easley lived in a time where women and African-Americans were facing discrimination from society. She experienced discrimination related to being an African-American during her career. In one incident, her face was cut out from a picture to put it on display. In her 34-year career she worked in four different departments: the Computer Services Division, the Energy Directorate, the Launch Vehicles Group and the Engineering Directorate, although none of her moves were due to promotions, which she recognized may have been due to her race or sex.

Throughout the 1970s, Easley advocated for and encouraged female and minority students at college career days to work in STEM careers. She tutored elementary and high school children as well as young adults who had dropped out of school in a work-study program.

Easley was also a budding athlete who founded and subsequently became the first President of the NASA Lewis Ski Club and participated in other local ski clubs in the Cleveland area.

On Feb 4, 2022, NASA's History Office Twitted (Posted on X): “I just have my own attitude. I’m out here to get the job done, and I knew I had the ability to do it, and that’s where my focus was.” Annie Easley was hired at the NACA (NASA's predecessor) in 1955 as a "human computer," launching a career that would last 34 years.

Personal life
In 1954, Annie Easley married a man from the military. After her husband had been discharged from the military, the two of them moved to Cleveland, Ohio to be near his family.

After divorcing her husband, Easley returned to Birmingham. As part of the Jim Crow laws that maintained racial inequality, African Americans were required to pass a literacy test and pay a poll tax in order to vote, which was outlawed in 1964 in the Twenty-fourth Amendment. She remembered the test giver looking at her application and saying only, "You went to Xavier University. Two dollars." Subsequently, she helped other African Americans prepare for the test.

Easley had always loved dressing up. She wore stockings and heels almost every day in college. Although there was no dress code in her work department, wearing pants as a woman during that time was still not normalized. However, she was one of the first to wear pants to work in the 1970s after talking to her supervisor about it.

In her first three years after retiring from NASA, Easley focused on volunteer work, often telling people she put more miles on her car as a retiree than as a worker. She traveled the world, mostly to ski, and become an independent contractor in real estate. Although she no longer tutored, she expressed that she was always willing to talk to students at career days and similar events if asked.

Selected works

 * Performance and Operational Economics Estimates for a Coal Gasification Combined-Cycle Cogeneration Powerplant. Nainiger, Joseph J.; Burns, Raymond K.; Easley, Annie J. NASA, Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio. NASA Tech Memo 82729 Mar 1982 31p
 * Bleed Cycle Propellant Pumping in a Gas-Core Nuclear Rocket Engine System. Kascak, A. F.; Easley, A. J. National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio. Report No.: NASA-TM-X-2517; E-6639 March 1972
 * Effect of Turbulent Mixing on Average Fuel Temperatures in a Gas-Core Nuclear Rocket Engine. Easley, A. J.; Kascak, A. F.; National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio. Report No.: NASA-TN-D-4882 Nov 1968

title: Annie Easley


text:
Talk:Persian traditional music

Removing of copyvio material
I removed a lot of material, but before anyone blames me for it, keeping it there would have it remain a copyright violation...see here ...plus, it wasn't NPOV anyway. "Artistic gift of the Perisan people"?! -- Natalinasmpf 13:15, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, the Iranchamber itself has been known to engage in copyvios: They've lifted a number of color illustrations from Osprey Military books.  Besides, you're an anarcho-communist opposed to plutocrats and their oppresive copyright systems, aren't you? --Jpbrenna 02:25, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Iran isn't a signatory to the copyright treaty, technically they can take anything they want and so can you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.251.108.100 (talk) 20:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Great Article, but...
Why no mention of the rise of Modern Persian music (Persian Pop)? Kirbytime 22:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * See here: Persian pop music.Sangak 20:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a really good article, thank you but two of your links fail. Failing links are;
 * 1) Radif (PDF)
 * 2) About Persian classical music  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.184.18.72 (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm questioning the neutral point of view and the origin of the second large paragraph under "Major Instruments", which seems a bit off topic. 108.208.141.237 (talk) 17:15, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Wiki Title is Wrong
Please consider changing the title and contents to Iranian traditional music instead of Persian. Many of the artists and ensembles mentioned on this page are not of Persian origin, but are in fact Kurds. Iran is not Persian, just like as Persian is not Iran. The ancient Empires weren't known as Persian Empires either. This article is full of misconceptions. Changing everything Persian (except when it refers to someone of the Persian ethnicity) is simply put: wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 (talk) 18:31, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Title
Since the article is supposed to cover the classical music of modern-day Iran and its historical background throughout various eras, it is inaccurate and somewhat impossible to use the controversial archaic term of Persia. This term needs to be replaced with Iran, the well-established official demonym of the country. —Rye-96 (talk) 15:30, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

 * Support 'Persian' and 'Iranian' are not interchangeable. The word 'Persian' pertains of an ethnic group, while 'Iranian' pertains to the nationality. And only half or Iranians are Persians. Lets change "Persian" to "Iranian" in the title, to include the other ethnicities such as Kurds and Azerbaijanis. And the unsigned IP poster above this also seems supportive of this. Amin (Talk) 20:55, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

 * True. I'd say we should think of it as "the traditional music of Persia" vs. "the traditional music of Iran". The latter makes more sense for sure, while the archaic term would lead the article into a complex direction. However, if we are to keep the archaic word in the lede because of the use of it in some sources, I think a simple a.k.a. can be a solution. —Rye-96 (talk) 21:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

 * Not this again. Persian is archaic in a modern political context. It is still current in historical and cultural contexts. Not everyone in Germany is ethnically German, either. Genealogizer (talk) 05:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC) <--- CU blocked sock of User:Bobby Martnen

 * Right, but Germany's official and only dymonym is German. Not a rational comparison at all. —Rye-96 (talk) 15:21, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

 * And Persia's official and only demonym in English would have been Persian if the Shah hadn't been influenced by Nazi ideology and thus desired to convince people that Persians were "Aryan". What's your point? 2601:246:C003:C110:19E:4294:C102:3966 (talk) 03:25, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 2 June 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. —Guanaco 23:12, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Persian traditional music → Iranian traditional music – Replacing the archaic term of Persia with the well-established official demonym. — See also: Talk:Persian traditional music. Rye-96 (talk) 22:03, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). TonyBallioni (talk) 01:59, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

 * Comment – : sending this to an RM since a change in names could be controversial. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:59, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Opppose - While it is incorrect to use Persia in a modern political context, it is still appropriate in a cultural context, and things named after places usually retain their names, even after the place is officially renamed. (See Peking duck, Leghorn chicken, or even Persian cat) It's also worth noting that even when you exclude Wikipedia results, "Persian traditional music" still gets almost twice as many hits as "Iranian traditional music". When you reverse the first two terms, "traditional Persian music" gets more than twice as many hits as "traditional Iranian music" Genealogizer (talk) 05:43, 4 June 2017 (UTC) <--- CU blocked sock of User:Bobby Martnen
 * This is a quite different case. Persian cat is a term culturally used in the West to refer to that species, while this article is supposed to refer to the traditional music of Iran and it is rather reasonable to use the official demonym. The search result argument is not a good excuse. You must consider the fact that the term Persian, apart from being an archaic exonym for the country, would also specifically refer to the traditional music associated with the Persian people, and this is while the classical music of Iran includes some regional variations (e.g. Kurdish traditional music, Azeri traditional music, Balochi traditional music) which cannot be referred to as Persian (especially while being discussed specifically). That's what makes it complex and controversial, and also what makes the search results unreliable in my opinion. —Rye-96 (talk) 15:17, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment You're the nominator, you don't need to vote support for your own proposal. Given that this is about traditional music, use of the traditional exonym is appropriate, keeping in mind it was official until 1935. While Persia is archaic in a modern political context, it is not archaic in a historical cultural context. Traditional music is both historical and cultural. Genealogizer (talk) 15:34, 4 June 2017 (UTC) <--- CU blocked sock of User:Bobby Martnen
 * Alright; I removed the tag. I was just pointing out that I'm supporting the idea. Well, I think that's a disregard of the complexity of the issue. I still believe that the official demonym would be the proper and impartial term. How about classical music of Iran, besides an a.k.a. Persian traditional music in the lede? This can also be a good idea from the point of view that the term traditional itself usually refers to folk music, rather than classical music. —Rye-96 (talk) 16:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with including also known as classical music of Iran in the lede, but the page is currently at the right title. Genealogizer (talk) 16:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC) <--- CU blocked sock of User:Bobby Martnen

 * Support - Rye-96 pretty much said it all. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:56, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose – This is another example of editors who are 'specialists' in a subject area, or are non-native speakers of English, that want to right the great wrong of using the common English terminology, so as to correct some perceived imperfection in it. This article is about Persian traditional music. In English, the term "Persia" is used in a broad sense that refers to more than just to "Pars" (Fars). The problems cited by Rye-96 do not exist in English. "Persian" is not archaic in a cultural context, and is retained for subjects such as these. The supposed 'error' of using a term derived from "Pars" to refer to something proper to Iran is not something that Wikipedia can correct. This is simply a feature of the English language. I'm sure if I were to take the time to go through the Persian language, I'd find various exonyms for other countries, cultures, places. All languages have these, and it is not Wikipedia's job to erase them, no matter what 'errors' they may contain. If a certain term is the most common term for a certain subject in the English language, we use that term, per WP:UCN. We can examine commonality by looking at Google Ngrams. On a broader level, if we look at a comparison between "Persian music" and "Iranian music", one will see that "Persian music" has always been more common in English. If we narrow the search to "Persian traditional music" and "Iranian traditional music", no results are returned at all for "Iranian traditional music". On this basis, there is no way that the term "Iranian traditional music" is acceptable for this subject. RGloucester  — ☎ 17:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment Please assume good faith when commenting about the motivations of others to propose a name change. Your accusations seem unfounded, and out of touch. Amin (Talk) 18:46, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I never said I was a "specialist". I don't understand this behavior. Remember that discussions are supposed to be kept civil. What you're saying is true about 20th-century English language, prior to 1935. In contemporary terminology, Persia and Persian are archaic terms if replacing Iran and Iranian. Wikipedia is not supposed to "correct" the issue, and I wasn't suggesting that. But it is Wikipedia's duty to be impartial. The search result argument is unreliable, since the terms Persian and Iranian are not always treated synonymous. Iran's local Kurdish, Azeri and Balochi traditional/classical music cannot be referred to as Persian; thus, sources which would cover information about them would not use the term Persian. In other words, we could say the traditional music associated with Persians has been discussed more on the web than all sorts of traditional Iranian music collectively. That's why I believe it has to be dealt with regarding classical music of Iran vs. classical music of Persia. By the way, check the results again; "Iranian traditional music" occurs in over 45,000 results. —Rye-96 (talk) 18:52, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Persian traditional music occurs in over 84,000, significantly more than 45,000. Genealogizer (talk) 19:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC) <--- CU blocked sock of User:Bobby Martnen
 * I know. That was in response to "no results are returned at all for 'Iranian traditional music'". —Rye-96 (talk) 19:21, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Please look at the Ngrams that I linked. First of all, they show that "Persian" in this context, dominates "Iranian", even in the present day. The results are charted by year, and therefore this is easily verifiable. Therefore, you argument about the "archaic" nature of "Persian" falls apart. 1935 has nothing to do with anything. An official proclamation does not change the English language as spoken by English speakers. It is up to people who use the language, academics, journalists, etc., to decide whether to take up such a change, or not do so. In this particular context, that of 'traditional music', they have not done so. Reliable sources, to the present day, consistently prefer "Persian traditional music". The "no results..." sentence that I wrote was in reference to the Google Ngrams I cited. Please look at these again, and you will see "no results" for "Iranian traditional music" in reliable sources such as books.
 * "Persian" and "Iranian" are synonyms in the English language. I know this can be hard to grasp, but that's how it is. The fact that the word "Persian" holds multiple meanings does not change the fact that this music is called "Persian", even if that is a misnomer by your own personal standards. We follow common usage in reliable English sources, per our policy on using common names, and your claims are not backed up by usage in reliable sources. What I meant by my first comment was that, because you do not have distance from the subject, you cannot be objective. You are not a native English speaker. You are Iranian, and you understand the words "Iran", "Persia", &c., in a way that is very different, and perhaps deeper, than an English speaker does. For this reason, you, working within that mental framework, feel that "Persian" as a label for this music is wrong, even if English speakers the world over use it for this subject, as is demonstrated by reliable sources. Unfortunately, your personal feelings about the "wrongness" of an English exonym cannot be the basis for change on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is written in English, and follows English common usage. It is also based on reliable sources. Until English reliable sources feel the same way about "Persian" as you do, there can be no endorsing of the change you propose here. RGloucester  — ☎ 21:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Things are being mixed up here. In present-day terminology, if not yesterday's (!), the term Persian is (at least occasionally) not synonymous with Iranian—where it occurs as a group of Iranians with a particular cultural system. Persian as a nationality, in the sense "from Persia", is definitely archaic (because the term Persia as a nation is archaic); but Persian as an ethnicity, referring to the branch of Iranians, is not. Accordingly, "Persian" would (at least occasionally) be a hyponym of "Iranian". And I'm talking about its use in English, not in Persian. Thus, "Persian traditional music" would refer specifically to a branch of the traditional music of Iran belonging to the Persians—which is actually true, since other groups of Iranians do have their own versions. This makes the comparison between the search results of "Persian traditional music" and "Iranian traditional music" technically unreliable, at least partially. It's like saying the term lesbian has to replace homosexual, because it occurs in more search results (!). This is why I'm suggesting it has to be regarding classical music of Iran VS classical music of Persia—where you can see you do get more results for "Iran". —Rye-96 (talk) 00:02, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but you really haven't the latitude to do original research and analysis on this manner. I perfectly aware of the narrower meaning of the word "Persian", but this meaning is subsidiary in English to the broader meaning, which is the one being used by this article, and by the relevant reliable sources that make-up the Google Ngrams searches above. "Persian traditional music" refers to "Persian traditional music", which is the subject of this article, and indeed, the original title of this article. Google Ngrams shows no results in reliable sources for either "classical music of Iran" or "classical music of Persia", but does show that "Persian classical music" dominates "Iranian classical music". If we take a look at any of the books found by the Ngrams search, it is clear that the meaning used is the broader one. As an example, look at this book. It dates to 1990 at first printing, though this is a newer edition. Read the page linked, and what will you see? Talk about the "westernisation of Persia" during the Pahlavi dynasty, and simultaneous talk about classes on "Persian traditional music" at the University of Tehran. Are you going to claim that this book is referring to westernisation of Pars/Fars? I think that you can see that the way that you view this matter simply isn't the way the word "Persian" is used in English. RGloucester  — ☎ 05:35, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Home come that's an original research? I'm not self-formulating the title; I'm suggesting something which is actually in use. Take the Classical music of the United Kingdom article, for example. I think that's a similar situation, where they have dealt with it with a title which also results in nothing using your suggested way of naming an article. Complaining on some individual example like this is actually what original research is. Look up on the web for Kurdish traditional music, Azeri traditional music and Balochi traditional music, and you will see that these terms exist; and, ask people who are a little familiar with the case, they cannot, ever, be replaced with Persian. What you're suggesting regarding Persian traditional music VS Iranian traditional music is pretty much like this. You are, again, insisting to ignore the complexity of the term Persian in present-day English terminology. I'm not saying Persian traditional music has to be removed from the lede, since it does imply that way in many sources; but if the article's title get moved to classical music of Iran, it would help the accuracy of the reference, which has to be to the present-day state of Iran, and would be impartial. —Rye-96 (talk) 18:30, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm aware that Kurdish traditional music exists, &c., but this article is about "Persian traditional music", not about Kurdish music (which is covered at Kurdish music) or Azeri music (which is covered at Azerbaijani folk music, amongst other places). Again, I'm aware of the fact that there are multiple meanings to the word Persian...but we follow reliable sources on this. We don't try to improve accuracy independent of the way in which reliable sources use a word. If reliable sources find "Persian" accurate enough for this subject, then so does Wikipedia. RGloucester  — ☎ 19:10, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

 * Support move to Classical music of Iran – Much better, and deals with the entire issue at once. - LouisAragon (talk) 18:38, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * A title found that has 'zero results' in Google Ngrams does not meet the requirements set forth by WP:AT. RGloucester  — ☎ 19:10, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Disagreed. Both of the suggested titles are well-attested and clear. What do you think? Would you agree with either classical music of Iran or Iranian traditional music (or traditional Iranian music) if they could replace the current title? —Rye-96 (talk) 22:59, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, I would go for Classical music of Iran. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:56, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not an exert on this, but since you pinged me.. My preference goes to "Traditional music of Iran". I think it flows better than "Iranian traditional music". And I like 'traditional' more than 'classical', perhaps I associate 'classical music' with European composers. Again, I am not an expert on this. Amin (Talk) 15:42, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the preposition of (instead of in) would make it clear that it's a native thing. —Rye-96 (talk) 16:35, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Once again, Persian is the standard term in cultural contexts. In the English language, Iran and Iranian are only preferred in political and post-1935 historical contexts. Cultural and pre-1935 contexts are still usually Persian in English. Just like how Burma is now officially Myanmar but the language is still Burmese. 2601:246:C003:C110:19E:4294:C102:3966 (talk) 03:24, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That's not quite factual. It's more like an alternative, and would actually be pretty contradictory in this occasion. The terms Iran and Iranian would be more precise and consistent, and are definitely practical for this use in English. —Rye-96 (talk) 11:15, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Funny, this random IP (with only two edits) uses the exact same silly comparison and style of logic as another person :) --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:35, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * No surprise. A lot of users/IPs are obsessed with this term, just because it supposedly sounds better to them. But let's assume good faith. —Rye-96 (talk) 16:02, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

 * Oppose. Most of the article deals with pre-1935 material. —  AjaxSmack  17:03, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

 * The article is supposed to be about Iran's classical music, not Persia's. If it was specifically created to cover pre-1935 material, then this argumentation would make sense. —Rye-96 (talk) 06:48, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

 * Oppose. As RG showed, "Persian" is more commonly used than "Iranian" to describe the music in reliable English-language sources. As is the case with Persian language, etc. And the article itself describes the music as belonging to "Greater Iran", which is not the same as the modern country. If there should be a separate article including the non-Persian traditional music of modern Iran, that's fine. But that's not this article. Dohn joe (talk) 17:22, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * In what way is this related to the case of the Persian language, Dohn joe? Like, what case are you referring to? What do you think the Persian language would've been referred to instead of Persian?... The article's lede, in the current edition, does mention Greater Iran as a supposed area across which the music is "appreciated and enjoyed", but it is clearly an unsourced self-formulated add-up. And then again, "Greater Iran" is not a synonym for "Persia". A separate article to include "the non-Persian traditional music of modern Iran"? But this article is already referring to archaeological records from ancient Elam, ridiculously referring to it as Persia, besides the music of the Safavid and Qajar eras. This article is certainly about modern-day Iran's classical music, not ancient Iran's classical music. —Rye-96 (talk) 20:39, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The only reason that English-speakers call Persia Iran today is because some Persian officials of the 1930s thought that it sounded similar to Aryan and admired Hitler. Genealogizer (talk) 20:51, 15 June 2017 (UTC) <--- CU blocked sock of User:Bobby Martnen
 * Is that so, Genealogizer? :) Would you please add a reference to where this information comes from? —Rye-96 (talk) 21:20, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Suggestion
Good work so far. How about including a list of artists of Persian traditional music, both old and new, in this article as well? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.54.94 (talk) 03:50, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Recommendation to make article even better
Unfortunately my knowledge on music is very little, however, I know that all the very similar musics of the Iranian peoples makes up what is Iranian music. Music of the Kurdish, Azeri, Persian, Balochi, Luri, Mazandarani, Gilak, Pashtun, Tajik etc are all what makes it up. If there is someone knowledgeable enough on this topic, it would be very good if they can add these sections into it.

Title
Why is the title referred to as "Persian" traditional music. As of today, out of the historical context, Persian is associated with the Persian ethnic group. Persians are one of the Iranian peoples. Just like the name of the country Iran which is derived from the Iranian peoples. The very large majority of the ethnic groups in Iran are of the Iranian peoples and simply labeling it "Persian" isn't correct. Although all the music is very very similar, it must be noted that there are a few different sub-groups of this music family as well. Sub-groups such as Azerbaijani, Kurdish, Baloch, Tajik, Pashtun, Lur, Gilak, Mazandarani etc music. Stating simply Persian will confuse many as nowadays it is used to refer to an ethnic group. I would propose changing the title the Iranian traditional music. Migboy123 (talk) 11:17, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Persian traditional music