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Richard Peter

Richard Peter (10 May 1895 – 3 October 1977) was a German press photographer and photojournalist. He is best known for his photographs of Dresden just after the end of the Second World War.

Life
Richard Peter was born and raised in Klein Jenkwitz, Silesia, where as a teenager he worked as a smith and a miner while dabbling in photography. He was drafted into the German army in 1914 to serve in the First World War. After the war he settled in Halle and later in Dresden. He joined the labor movement and the Communist Party of Germany, and during the 1920s and early 1930s his photographs were published in various left-wing publications. Because of this, he was promptly barred from working as a press photographer when the Nazi Party rose to power in 1933. During the Third Reich, he worked in advertising, before being drafted again to serve in the Second World War.

Peter returned to Dresden in September 1945 to find the city destroyed after the bombing of Dresden of February 1945. His personal archive and equipment had been completely destroyed in the raids. Starting over with borrowed equipment, he began to document the damage to the city and the beginnings of its reconstruction. His photographs were published in 1949 in a volume called Dresden, eine Kamera klagt an ("Dresden, a photographic accusation", ISBN 3-930195-03-8).

Dresden was in the Soviet occupation zone, and Peter's later life was in the new communist East Germany. In 1949, Peter was expelled from the ruling Socialist Unity Party of Germany, the successor of the Communist Party, when he investigated corrupt party officials. He continued to work as a freelance art photographer in Dresden until his death in 1977, and eventually won some international recognition for his work. Peter's more than 5,000 negatives and prints were acquired by the Saxon State Library in 1983.

title: Richard Peter


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User:Bjadter

Brian Jetter

Currently working in Yerevan, Armenia, I'm a graduate from Olivet Nazarene University with a B.A. in computer science.

N'uff said.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Bjadter


text:
Time Fades Away

Time Fades Away is a 1973 live album by Canadian-American musician Neil Young. Consisting of previously unreleased material, it was recorded with the Stray Gators on the support tour following 1972's highly successful album Harvest. Due to Young's dissatisfaction with the tour, it was omitted from his catalogue and not released on compact disc until 2017. The album is the first of the so-called "Ditch Trilogy" of albums that Young recorded following the major success of Harvest, whereupon the scope of his success and acclaim became so apparent that Young subsequently experienced alienation from his music and career.

Nevertheless, Time Fades Away received much critical praise and was widely pirated after lapsing out of print because of the ensuing demand from fans. It was initially reissued on vinyl as part of the Official Release Series Discs 5-8 Vinyl Box Set for Record Store Day in 2014, then reissued again for its 50th anniversary in 2023 as Time Fades Away 50. The album finally saw an official CD release in August 2017 as part of the CD version of the boxset. It gradually became available on streaming platforms and on the Neil Young Archives website in 2021.

History
Though "Love in Mind" dates from a 1971 solo tour, all other songs on the album are from the Harvest tour in early 1973. The program featured an acoustic solo set followed by an electric set with the Stray Gators. Longtime collaborator and former Crazy Horse guitarist Danny Whitten had been set to join the Gators as a second guitarist before being sent home from rehearsals after it became evident that he was in no condition to embark on the rigorous tour. He succumbed to a fatal combination of Valium and alcohol on the night following his dismissal.

Unlike Young's previous ensembles, the Stray Gators consisted of notable Nashville and Los Angeles session musicians; keyboardist Jack Nitzsche was the only member of the group who had worked with Young prior to Harvest. During the rehearsals, drummer Kenny Buttrey demanded a salary of $100,000 (roughly $727,577 in 2023) to compensate for lost session work, leading Nitzsche (with support from Tim Drummond) to prevail upon the singer to extend this salary to the other band members. Although Young reluctantly acquiesced, Nitzsche would later reflect that "Neil got so pissed off ... I don't think things ever recovered after that."

In the wake of the relatively dulcet Harvest, audiences did not always react positively to the new songs, many of which were emblematic of the Gators' raucous and heavily electrified live sound. Struggling to cope with Whitten's death, Young lambasted band members' performances following concerts and scheduled soundchecks that were often cancelled on short notice. Such behavior frustrated Buttrey, who left the band and was immediately replaced by former Turtles/Jefferson Airplane percussionist Johnny Barbata. Having previously stepped in to replace Dallas Taylor on Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's 1970 tour, Barbata ultimately performed on all of the Stray Gators selections on the album. At the instigation of Drummond, Young also developed a penchant for tequila, with the singer later remarking that "it does something else to me than alcohol usually does."

Other band members performed erratically: according to producer Elliot Mazer, Nitzsche would often spew obscenities into his switched-off vocal microphone, while pedal steel/dobro player Ben Keith was so inebriated at one soundcheck that he could not recall the key of "Don't Be Denied", a song slated for the album. Following the loss of a pickup on his signature Old Black (a heavily modified 1953 Gibson Les Paul Goldtop), Young switched to a Gibson Flying V; according to Young, the guitar "wouldn't stay in tune" and had other problems. Biographer Jimmy McDonough has characterized Young's performances on the instrument as "the worst guitar playing of his career."

Alcohol abuse and strained singing would lead the singer to develop a throat infection in the final days of the tour. In a partial reunion of CSN&Y, Young hired David Crosby and Graham Nash to augment the harmonies and play rhythm guitar. Despite their integration, the band's repertoire remained confined to Young originals. Moreover, clashes among the Stray Gators continued, with Nitzsche complaining that he couldn't hear himself playing because Crosby's 12-string electric guitar overpowered the sound mix. Following sixty-two concerts over three months, the tour ended at the Salt Palace in Salt Lake City, Utah on April 3, 1973.

Songs
Though the ambitious tour was booked to promote Young's hugely successful Harvest album, Young also used the setlists to introduce several new songs. In addition to the eight songs that would eventually make up Time Fades Away, he also debuted the songs "Borrowed Tune", "New Mama" and "Lookout Joe", all of which see release on Tonight's the Night as well as "Come Along and Say You Will" and "Sweet Joni", which would go unreleased until 2020's Archives Volume II.

Prior to the tour, Young would record several of these songs in studio. On November 15, 1972, he booked solo sessions with producer Henry Lewy at A&M Recording Studios in Los Angeles. One month later on December 15, he would record additional songs with the Stray Gators at his ranch with Elliot Mazer producing. Although these sessions produced several master takes, a live album from the tour was assembled instead. Much of the sessions were released on Young's Archives Volume II in 2020.

"Love in Mind", "Journey through the Past" and "The Bridge" all date to Young's solo acoustic tour in early 1971, but were ultimately not included in the album Harvest.

"Love in Mind" was written in Detroit during the 1971 solo tour. Young explains during his BBC Television appearance that year: "I used to call this girl from the road, that I'd never, that I was in love with, but I'd never really met. I used to talk to her on the phone all the time. And late at night I would talk to her on the phone because of the time difference. And I'd wake up the next morning feeling so good."

"The Bridge" was inspired by the 1930 long poem of the same name by Hart Crane.

The song "L.A." dates from 1968, and its lyrics consider the city's freeway traffic and smog and people who "live under palm trees looking out at the ocean and worry about earthquakes." Young wrote the song around the time of his first album after leaving Buffalo Springfield, but was too paranoid to release it then due to its critical lyrics. Jack Nitzsche helped remind Young of the song at the beginning of the tour: "It's not really new; I wrote it in 1968. My friend Jack reminded me about it a couple weeks ago. He wrote it down and I had to read it all out again because I had forgotten it totally." Young performed the song on the tour both by himself on acoustic guitar and with the full band. An acoustic performance appears on Archives Volume II.

"Don't Be Denied" is one of Young's most autobiographical songs. Its lyrics recount his experiences as a schoolchild in Winnipeg after his parents' divorce, learning guitar with his friend Comrie Smith and dreaming of being a star, and achieving that stardom in Buffalo Springfield. The song was written in mid December 1972, during rehearsals for the tour.

Recording
Time Fades Away was recorded directly from the soundboard to 16-track and mixed simultaneously to LP cutting using the Quad-Eight Compumix.

"There were no 2-track masters ever made of this record. The master discs were cut directly from the 16-track masters through the Compumix system. A mix was recorded to a second 16-track machine--we had 2 that would run perfectly together--to feed the variable pitch system of the lathe--but was discarded when we were through. I was the mastering engineer who cut the masters". - Phil Brown

While no master tape was created in the traditional sense, stereo tapes were in fact created while cutting to enable future remastering.

Release
Time Fades Away was released on Reprise on October 15, 1973, catalogue number MS 2151. The album reached #22 on the Billboard Top LPs & Tape chart, and quickly achieved gold status, selling over 1 million copies in both the US and UK. It was issued on vinyl, cassette and 8-track.

The album's title track was briefly released as a 7" single in November 1973, with the B-side of "Last Trip to Tulsa", a live version of the song recorded in Baton Rouge, Louisiana on the Time Fades Away tour and unavailable anywhere else at that time. It continued to remain unavailable for another 47 years until its release on the Neil Young Archives Volume II: 1972–1976 box set released in November 2020.

Legacy
Cameron Crowe pays homage to both the album itself and the Joel Bernstein album cover photograph in his movie Almost Famous. In great detail, as the lights go down during Stillwater's first concert performance of the movie, the short scene recreates the cover, from the raised hand of the concert-goer, to the solitary rose at the edge of the stage.

Reception
Upon its release, Time Fades Away received positive reviews from Rolling Stone, The New York Times, and Robert Christgau of The Village Voice. In more recent years, it has been rated highly by AllMusic, Sputnikmusic, and Blurt Online.

Cash Box called the title track "infectious" stating that it is "a rocker with that laid back Neil Young quality that has made him the favorite of the masses." Record World said that it "should be another hit for the living legend."

Comments from Young
Neil Young commented on Time Fades Away in the original, unreleased liner notes for his 1977 triple-album compilation Decade: "Time Fades Away. No songs from this album are included here. It was recorded on my biggest tour ever, 65 [sic] shows in 90 days. Money hassles among everyone concerned ruined this tour and record for me but I released it anyway so you folks could see what could happen if you lose it for a while. I was becoming more interested in an audio verite approach than satisfying the public demands for a repetition of Harvest."

In 1987, Young told an interviewer that Time Fades Away was "the worst record I ever made – but as a documentary of what was happening to me, it was a great record. I was onstage and I was playing all these songs that nobody had heard before, recording them, and I didn't have the right band. It was just an uncomfortable tour. I felt like a product, and I had this band of all-star musicians that couldn't even look at each other."

Young has rarely played songs from Time Fades Away live. "Don't Be Denied" was included in the 1974 CSN&Y tour. In July 2008, he performed the record's title track at a concert in Oberhausen, Germany. A 2014 documentary on Young was also named Don't Be Denied. On April 24, 2024 he played the song with Crazy Horse in a concert at the San Diego State University Open Air Theater.

Reissues
Time Fades Away long remained the only officially released Neil Young album unavailable on compact disc. Young had often cited his unfavorable memories of the tour as the main reason that the record had not been reissued.

In the mid-1990s, plans were made to release the album on CD using the HDCD encoding; several test pressings were made, and a release date of November 7, 1995, was announced. However, the CD release was shelved for unknown reasons. In early 2007, Young's management reiterated that there were no plans to release the album on CD. Pristine vinyl copies are still available in used stores and on eBay, often with the fold-out liner notes still intact; some CDs from the 1995 test pressings exist, and copies of these CDs are circulated as bootlegs. Additionally, some fans have made CDs from the more readily available vinyl copies.

In 2014, Young released a limited edition box set of vinyl records that includes the original Time Fades Away along with On the Beach, Tonight's the Night, and Zuma. From December 2014, Young's first 14 albums, including Time Fades Away, were released as high-resolution downloads via the Pono digital music service, HDTracks and Qobuz. The album finally saw an official CD release in August 2017 as part of the CD version of Official Release Series Discs 5-8 boxset. The CD version was finally released for individual purchase on September 23, 2022.

Time Fades Away is also available on streaming platforms such as Deezer and Apple Music. It is also available for streaming and download in high resolution audio on the Neil Young Archives website.

On November 3, a 50th anniversary reissue entitled Time Fades Away 50 will be released, featuring an extra track, "Last Trip to Tulsa", previously released as the B-side to the single release of "Time Fades Away".

Time Fades Away II and Tuscaloosa
In October 2009, Young told Guitar World that a disc titled Time Fades Away II would be included in the second volume of the Archives box set series, noting: "It's interesting because [Time Fades Away II] has a different drummer than what was on that album. Kenny Buttrey was in there for the first half, and Johnny Barbata came in for the second. It's a completely different thing, with completely different songs."

In January 2019, in an interview with Rolling Stone, Young mentioned the upcoming release of Tuscaloosa, a live album featuring the February 5th, 1973 show at Tuscaloosa, Alabama from the tour. The album was released on June 7, 2019. Young has since stated on his Archives website that Tuscaloosa is "as close as Time Fades Away II that we'll get".

Track listing
All tracks written by Neil Young.

Side one

 * 1) "Time Fades Away" (5:36)
 * 2) * Neil Young – guitar, harmonica, vocal; Ben Keith – slide guitar, vocal; Tim Drummond – bass; Jack Nitzsche – piano; Johnny Barbata – drums
 * 3) * Recorded at Myriad Convention Center, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 3/1/1973. Produced by Elliot Mazer & Neil Young.
 * 4) "Journey Through the Past" (3:19)
 * 5) * Neil Young – piano, vocal
 * 6) * Recorded at Public Hall, Cleveland, Ohio, 2/11/1973. Produced by Elliot Mazer & Neil Young.
 * 7) "Yonder Stands the Sinner" (3:17)
 * 8) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal; David Crosby – guitar, vocal; Ben Keith – slide guitar; Tim Drummond – bass; Jack Nitzsche – piano; Johnny Barbata – drums
 * 9) * Recorded at Seattle Center Coliseum, Seattle, Washington, 3/17/1973. Produced by Neil Young & Elliot Mazer.
 * 10) "L.A." (3:11)
 * 11) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal; Joe Yankee – bass; Ben Keith – pedal steel guitar, vocal; Jack Nitzsche – piano; Johnny Barbata – drums
 * 12) * Recorded at Myriad Convention Center, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 3/1/1973. Produced by Elliot Mazer & Neil Young.
 * 13) "Love in Mind" (1:58)
 * 14) * Neil Young – piano, vocal
 * 15) * Recorded at Royce Hall, Los Angeles, California, 1/30/1971. Produced by Henry Lewy & Neil Young.

Side two

 * 1) "Don't Be Denied" (5:16)
 * 2) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal; Ben Keith – pedal steel guitar, vocal; Tim Drummond – bass; Jack Nitzsche – piano, vocal; Johnny Barbata – drums
 * 3) * Recorded at Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum, Phoenix, Arizona, 3/28/1973. Produced by Elliot Mazer & Neil Young.
 * 4) "The Bridge" (3:05)
 * 5) * Neil Young – piano, harmonica, vocal
 * 6) * Recorded at Sacramento Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento, California, 4/1/1973. Produced by Elliot Mazer and Neil Young.
 * 7) "Last Dance" (8:47)
 * 8) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal; Ben Keith – pedal steel guitar, vocal; Tim Drummond – bass; Jack Nitzsche – piano; Johnny Barbata – drums; David Crosby – vocal; Graham Nash – guitar, vocal
 * 9) * Recorded at San Diego Sports Arena, San Diego, California, 3/29/1973. Produced by Elliot Mazer & Neil Young.

B-side and 50th anniversary edition

 * 1) "Last Trip to Tulsa" (4:19) – from the 45 RPM single of "Time Fades Away"
 * 2) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal; Ben Keith – lap slide guitar; Tim Drummond – bass; Jack Nitzsche – piano; Johnny Barbata – drums
 * 3) * Recorded at LSU Assembly Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 2/18/1973. Produced by Neil Young & Elliot Mazer.

Neil Young Archives album outtake

 * 1) "Sweet Joni" (2:42) – outtake first appearing on Neil Young Archives Volume II
 * 2) * Neil Young – piano, harmonica, vocal
 * 3) * Recorded at Bakersfield Civic Auditorium, Bakersfield, CA, 3/11/1973. Produced by Elliot Mazer and Neil Young.

Personnel

 * Neil Young — vocals; guitar on "Time Fades Away", "Yonder Stands the Sinner", "L.A.", "Don't Be Denied" and "Last Dance"; piano on "Journey thru the Past", "Love in Mind" and "The Bridge"; harmonica on "Time Fades Away" and "The Bridge"; bass† on "L.A."
 * David Crosby — guitar on "Yonder Stands the Sinner"; vocal on "Yonder Stands the Sinner" and "Last Dance"
 * Graham Nash — organ, vocal on "Last Dance"
 * The Stray Gators
 * Ben Keith — pedal steel, vocal on "L.A.", "Don't Be Denied" and "Last Dance"; slide guitar on "Time Fades Away" and "Yonder Stands the Sinner"; vocal on "Time Fades Away"
 * Jack Nitzsche — piano on "Time Fades Away", "Yonder Stands the Sinner", "L.A.", "Don't Be Denied" and "Last Dance"; vocal on "Don't Be Denied"
 * Tim Drummond — bass on "Time Fades Away", "Yonder Stands the Sinner", "Don't Be Denied", and "Last Dance"
 * Johnny Barbata — drums on "Time Fades Away", "Yonder Stands the Sinner", "L.A.", "Don't Be Denied" and "Last Dance"

† Neil Young credited as "Joe Yankee"

Additional roles
 * Gary Burden – art direction
 * Joel Bernstein – photography

Charts
Singles

title: Time Fades Away


text:
Talk:Walter Breen

Sources?
I don't see sources for the claims of pederasty against this person. I'll admit I don't really know much about the case myself. Nevertheless, the onus is upon the editors who added or support the inclusion of the information, to back it up with sources. Accusations of felony crimes are serious business and should never be thrown around unsourced at Wikipedia; the last thing Wikipedia needs is another high-profile libel scandal. Please cite sources. -Kasreyn 05:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's public record that he pled guilty.

Pled guilty twice, in two separate trials over two different children; of whom one was seven when he was first assaulted. He was convicted in 1993 of 13 counts of 288.a,b,c,and d and sentenced to 13 years in San Quentin. He died in Chino before he could be transferred to San Quentin.

Here lies my dad, he died in jail Of broken lives, he left a trail For all his coins, they'd brook no bail And cancer made his liver fail. --Moira Stern —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.1.49 (talk) 21:37, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: added source
Thank you very much, and it's a good start. But I'm still concerned about the allegation that he was convicted of the crimes alleged. Once again, to forestall any flames, I'd like to point out that my interest here is protecting Wikipedia from defamation claims, not protecting dead jailbird child molesters (assuming good faith here). Thanks. -Kasreyn 07:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

There is Marion Zimmer Bradley's testimony in the lawsuit filed against her by Ken Smith, Walter's last victim and the one he went to prison for. It is excerpted at: http://www.sff.net/people/stephen.goldin/mzb/excerpts1.html Bgoldnyxnet

Why Texas?
I don't understand why this article has been placed in the Texas project. Breen lived in California during the time I knew him (approx. 1966-1990). While apparently born in Texas, he seems to have been a Californian for most of his adult life. Bgoldnyxnet
 * Project tags aren't awards (for the Project or the subject), they are used to identify possible sources for additional information. Since Breen was born in TX there is a pretty clear reason to tag.  The more eyes watching a project, the better.  Jacksinterweb (talk) 00:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Why did I end up here trying to make sure this article complies to wiki policy and guidelines?
I thought trying to protect the Tom Metzger from policy/guideline violations was bad(I have since given up), but this one is out there too. Oh well. Is it too much to ask for better/more sources?? Thanks --Tom 20:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * He is well known for his writings about pederastry? Since its in the lead, is there a source for that?--Tom 20:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Read the article in Before Stonewall (listed in the "Further reading" section) for details. -- Orange Mike 02:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

pederasty and LGBT activist.
I have removed the "LGB activist", and "gay" categories. There is no supported evidence in the article that he's gay, and I'm not sure being a advocate of pederasty makes one an LGBT activist. I'm not very informed here, so I've cross posted to to the LGBT wikiproject.--Scott Mac 00:11, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You certainly aren't. I'll leave it to the LGBT project on the activist tag, but Breen's gayness is not in question and hasn't been since the late 1950s. -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  01:45, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * No problem - can you give a source for that?--Scott Mac 01:49, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * See the excellent potted biography of Breen in Before Stonewall.--Fafhrdrn1154 (talk) 16:52, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted two edits by House1630, who removed "pederasty" in two places. Breen was an outspoken proponent of pederastry and differentiated it from androphilia. Given that, I'm not at all clear why "pederastry" was replaced with "homosexuality". Zentomologist (talk) 04:28, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

gay tag copied over from my talk page
The category was removed under the BLP policy. Do not replace it without a solid citation or you maybe blocked.--Scott Mac 01:51, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The "L" in BLP stands for "living". -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  01:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I missed that. Nevertheless, if it is as well known as you claim, a reliable source should be easy for you.--Scott Mac 01:55, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure; how many more do you want? -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  01:56, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, if you read D.H. Mader's "Walter Breen aka J.Z. Eglinton (1928–1993)," in Before Stonewall: Activists for Gay and Lesbian Rights in Historical Context, edited by Vern L. Bullough (New York: Harrington Park Press, 2002), you'll see that both tags should be restored, since Mader and Bullough both consider him a pre-Stonewall LGBT activist. -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  01:58, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I was taking a look at Before Stonewall.... on Google books, but I don't it either calling him gay, or an LGBT activist for that matter, although that is the topic of the book. Could you elaborate? And perhaps this discussion should be on the talk page. Prodego  talk  02:03, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Try page 313 (inter alia): ''"He also found the etiology for his sexuality in his past lives; if it was classically Greek, that was because he had once sat literally at Socrates' feet." -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  02:13, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I am correctly understanding the meaning of that. Page 318 seems to me to be more direct. Prodego  talk  02:35, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think the "Gay writers" category is valid. Breen's arguments (from what I've read in the Before Stonewall book on Google) are that "Greek Love" is nothing like "androphile homosexuality" (same-sex relationship between adults).  He seems to have self-identified as the former, not the latter.  See especially pg 317.
 * Having said that, he probably *does* belong to the "LGBT activists" category, since (as that book argues) his writings are some of the first on the study of homosexualities throughout history. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 04:15, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, so I'm being a vulgar old het boy here, stomping all over the subtle distinctions: Breen made a rather esoteric and (IMHO) self-justifying distinction between "Greek Love" and regular androphile sexuality (garden-variety gayness, if I understand it correctly). Just because he had this rather fringey theory, does this really justify excluding him from the gay writers category? For better or worse, he's certainly of more note than some of the more obscure folks in that category whose careers were enabled by the work of pre-Stonewall pioneers like Breen. -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  22:58, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Re: gay activist' -- despite his inclusion in Before Stonewall: Activists for Gay and Lesbian Rights in Historical Context, he is classed in that volume in the category "Other Voices and their Influence" rather than the sections on people who were activists as such. He was included because editors though his specific "belief" was important (p. 301), and I don't think belief = activist. He is called a "theorist" and we're told he "made a notable academic contribution" p. 312. Even being a path-breaking and/or original scholar doesn't add up to activist in my book. Re: gay -- his theory of Greek love explicitly requires the older man to introduce the younger into sexuality, specifically heterosexual practice. Thus neither person in the relationship is exclusively homosexual. That's vey clear in Before Stonewall p. 318. I don't pretend to understand it. Not clear to me how Breen defined himself, but I suspect "LGBT writer" works and "gay writer" doesn't. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 23:33, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Organgemike, thanks for asking about all this! As a "vulgar old het boy", the subject may (or may not) be outside your normal zones :)  Here's the "official" reason Breen isn't considered "gay": The LGBT community, for the most part, rejects man-boy relationships (what Breen called "Greek Love").  The reason given is because such relationships almost always have a "power over" contributing factor - the adult almost always has some form of power over the youngster.  Since (by and large) LGB relationships are based in love, they tend to not have that factor.  That's the official reason, anyway - as you might guess, there are large gray areas in that reasoning, but there ya go. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 03:39, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Walter H. Breen. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes: When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://coins.ha.com/common/features/numisarticles.php?id=225

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 08:52, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Article lacks quite a lot of official statements and commits and/or cites spurious synthesis
So we have mainly three sources that contradict and openly contest most or even all of the claims regarding Breen's sex crimes, legal record up until 1990, and synthesis in this article regarding them:
 * Official statement by Elisabeth Waters, Secretery to Marion Zimmer Bradley's Estate (not dated, but the terminatus post quem as the earliest possible date is given by the fact the latest date mentioned in the official statement is September 1999)
 * Excerpts from Zimmer Bradley's deposition (1997-1998)
 * MZB's full deposition (1997-1998)

According to the Official Statement by the MZB Estate, Breen had never in his entire life been convicted for a sex crime up until 1990, and when he was convicted in 1990, the only evidence used against him in court was his own confession over the event of March 1989. Considering all the legal evidence put before MZB and the Estate (the latter had also been officially involved as a defendant), the Official Statement expresses doubt about the truthfulness of Breen's confession (interestingly enough, the opposite councellor hired by the boy's parents as late as the late 90s still went on record as calling it an "alledged molestation" during an official testimony). The Official Statement points out that the parents of the 13-year-old boy involved in the March 1989 event were under official investigation of "atrocious neglect" up until at least September 1999 because it was considered legally proven that the alleged act of molestation in March 1989, if it had taken place at all, had undoubtedly occured at the house of the victim's mother, with the mother present in the room next door during the event, and that, according to the Estate's Official Statement, there was reason to believe the mother had deliberately and actively encouraged her child towards the crime, if it had taken place at all, and that the victim's parents had, at the time, been sexually open to him for years to a degree bordering obscenity. After MZB died, the charges against the victim's parents were suddenly dropped as part of an out-of-court settlement.

Now, let's move over to the sources for this WP article as it currently stands and how it's synthesizing them:

As for the 1954 accusation, this WP article here uses two sources to claim that it had to do with child molestation. The first source used for this claim doesn't call it that it all. It only cites "lewd behavior" without any mention of minors at all for that event. The second source is a deleted private website that has been put online in 1999 on behalf of Ken (the boy from 1989), his stepfather (whom the Official Stament of the MZB Estate accuses of having both a financial interest and an interest in not being legally persecuted for his and his wife's acts towards their son up to and including in 1989), and Moira Grayland, and it's this one deleted private smear website that most of the other sources have used in this article to privotally directly or indirectly quote and synthesize from, including quoting and indirectly referencing its interpretations of documents and events, since at least 2007 and at least up until Greyland made her public accusations in 2014.

So what do we have so far regarding 1954, outside of the deleted private smear site and other sources referring or alluding to it and its interpretations?
 * a.) The source Soy Taylor already used in this here WP article only mentions "lewd behavior" for 1954 and makes no mention whatsoever regarding minors for that event, which markedly differs from how explicitely Taylor names later accusations.
 * b.) The Official Statement by the MZB Estate points out, interestingly, that Breen was not convicted in 1954 at all, and that the document presented to MZB during her deposition only referred to an "arrest" that had no legal conesequences at all.
 * c.) Finally, according to Bradley Zimmer's own deposition linked above where she was confronted with said 1954 police document, the 1954 event related to "lewd behavior" with a "Kevin" who at the time was aged "21 or 22" that Breen was involved with in a "marriage triangle".

Next up: Some joker has obviously defiled this article by changing the "Boondoggle" event to "Breendoggle", making it sound like some humorous public nickname for Breen's supposed illicit sexual activities at sci-fi cons during the 1960s as something supposedly widely known and joked about. As can be read in MZB's deposition, the "Boondoggle" was simply the common nickname for a public raffle for American sci-fi fans to go to a British sci-fi con where Breen bought a ticket for the raffle, and so did, separately, a minor that Breen at no point in time was ever involved with or had ever even met by the time of his death in 1992. But since Breen had written about Greek homosexuality before, some local journalist called Jack Sphere wrote a smear article about Breen that he'd only bought the raffle ticket to his own name to solicit pre-adolescent American males like the one that had also bought a ticket at the raffle entirely separate from Breen. *THAT* was all that was to Breen's supposed "illicit activities" at cons during the 1960s.

When WZB publically defended her husband against Sphere's smear article by stating adamantly that he was not into pre-adolescents at all (which WZB's own WP article calls "defending his pedophilia") and that anything else was nobody's business, a cartoonist that didn't even know them responded by publishing a cartoon based solely upon WZB's public defence of her husband that alledged that she and her husband where engaging in incest with their own pre-adoelescent children. This smear cartoon created out of sheer malice is referred to in Breen's WP article here as "allegations of further pedophilic acts" as if it was anything remotely credible, and due to this cartoon in combination with Sphere's smear article, Breen was banned from Pacificon II.

The scandal caused by this purely malicious print cartoon referred to here as "allegations of further pedophilic acts" also led to WZB's mail correspondence being intercepted (illegally, as she emphasizes in her deposition) and she was arrested and found guilty over charges of "sending obscene material" to a socially isolated adult male seeking her advice (she'd sent him a biology textbook drawing of internal female organs) and a copy of Nabokov's Lolita that she had sent to herself from France. This conviction of WZB's is referred to here even as a possible "further molestation conviction in 1964" as that's what it was publically alledged to be at the time when it was purposefully muddled up with Sphere's smear article simply due to a public raffle ticket in Breen's name and the malicious cartoon directed against Breen and WZB afterwards.

The WP article here as it stands then makes it look like MZB was "cognizant" of illicit activities with preadolescents it has so far construed out of thin air, and in a similar flimsy fashion, MZB's own article even makes it look like she "defendend his behavior" as if she'd somehow known about any such behavior and told him it was okay to have sex with any pre-adolescents. The source used here for MZB's being "cognizant" again links to the deleted private smear website, which in turn points towards MZB's deposition. But what MZB actually talks about as to she was aware of at anytime prior to 1990 were sexual activities with, in her own words, "older teenagers" between 15 and 20 years of age, namely one "14 or 15-year-old" (MZB was unsure how old the boy really was) that throughout the deposition (and the media) occurs as Victim X. By means of an entirely unsourced "editor's note", the deleted private smear website simply dates these activities with Victim X and MZB's knowledge of it several years back in time to around 1960, before Breen and MZB had even begun their relationsip, only to claim that Victim X "was really 10 or 11", in spite of the fact that every single person recorded in the deposition refers to him as "14 or 15" or "older teenager" (although the opposite councellor hired by the 1989 parents against MZB often suggestively interchanges those terms with "that little boy" and "those little boys").

In her own (and partly Breen's) defence regarding Victim X and Breen's sexual activities with other "older teenagers" throughout the 1960s, MZB points out in her deposition that:
 * all the parents of these "older teenagers" of c. 15-20 years of age were well aware of the activities, they often knew long before she did, and often spontaneously, even proudly told her about the matter, verbally approving of and even aggressively defending these activities towards her at the time,
 * at one time in the mid-60s, she consulted Breen's female lawyer about it who told her not to worry, since all of Breen's partners were at legal marriage age at the time (but after a series of legal changes, by the 1990s those very same partners had suddenly turned into "innocent child victims" in retrospect), and wide portions of her deposition indicate that that's what largely informed her perception of her husband's extra-marital activities at least up until the late-70s,
 * and all of Breen's partners she was aware of during the 1960s and 1970s were physically taller and stronger than Breen. Particlularly with Victim X as the only legally identifiable person that Breen had extra-marital sex with during the 1960s and 1970s (they were only affiliated during the 1960s, but no other person could ever be legally identified as definitely having had extra-marital sex with Breen before at least 1985, as the mid-1980s is the very earliest point when other people beside Vicitm X known to authorities by name enter Breen's life that he might have had sex with, starting in the mid-80s at the very earliest), she emphasizes a number of times that she considered especially Victim X's physical maturity at the time matching that of her husband's and also found him mentally mature and willful enough to have sex with her husband; literal quote: "he could have tied Walter into a bow knot" because "the boy" was obviously stronger and taller than Breen at the time the sexual activity occured during the mid-60s. During her deposition, she even openly mocks her interrogator (which is the opposing councellor trying to roast her) for telling her she should have "protected" Victim X from Breen who was stronger and taller than she *AND* Breen.

According to her protracted deposition spanning over a hundred pages, the only other suspicious behavior MZB was, as this article claims, "cognizant" of was that sometime during the late 1970s, Breen tried to unsuccesfully proposite Greyland's BF aka "Johnny Doe 4" who was "17 or 18" at the time and Greyland herself was attending university (which gives the opposite attorney plenty of opportunity again to ignore the age and only talk about "this other little boy" and time and again call him by this innocently-sounding name "Johnny Doe 4", a depiction also of this event that this article's sources are running rampant with). Fast-forward a decade into the late 80s, we have that diary entry by either Moira or Elisabeth (and pretty much flaunted by MZB's WP article) where she acts like that verbal exchange between Breen and Greyland's "17 or 18"-year-old BF would be successfully completed child rape and calls that reason enough alone to report Breen for child molestation of both Moira and her BF and that her mom MZB was "actively concealing serial child molestation" for having told her back in the late 70s that her BF was old enough at 17 or 18 to defend himself. That section of MZB's WP article next connects Greyland's allegations relating to her then 17 or 18-year-old BF back in the late 70s, and that her mom knew about it, with Breen's 1990s conviction for an alledged deed in March 1989, making it look like MZB knew of and was actively concealing Breen's alledged late-80s activities with pre-adolescents, when in fact they hadn't been living together and hardly seen or talked to each other for close to a decade at that time, even though at the time he was living for rent in a place that WZB owned (though this part is not quite clear; MZB several times says that while he'd lived in that place he rented for most of the 80s, he had moved out by the time of the alledged molestation in March 1989, whereas the opposite councellor at more times than one says that he was still living there, and never once either of them seems to realize they're contradicting each other).

During the late 1970s, Breen and MZB separated over her jealousy over his extra-marital affairs with "older teenagers", and sometime between the early to mid-80s, MZB considered adopting a homeless 12-year-old boy aka "Johnny Doe 1" after he had been living in her place for a time. Breen wasn't even living there anymore, but because they were still married officially, she legally required his signature and the authorities required both of them to turn up to check whether they were fit as adoptive parents, so she told Breen once that he could do whatever he wanted with his "older teenagers" but he better not act suspicious around this 12-year-old, plus for all she knew, he was too old and physically impotent by then to engage in any sexual activity at all. During her deposition, the opposite councellor uses this single occurrence for hours and hours and days and days to no end to aggressively suggest the deceased Breen had been after and had raped many, many 12-year-olds by that time and aggressively tries to make MZB confess again and again that she'd known and concealed it all.

Similarly treated by the opposite councellor (and hence spawning another depiction largely informing this article's sources in how they're feeling entitled to call Breen having been after pre-adolescents all his life and constantly getting convicted over it) during MZB's deposition is an event that had occurred between her son David and a family friend who'd propositioned her then 13-year-old son once during the mid-60s. In her deposition, she emphasizes several times how her son was "almost six feet" at the time and the family friend was "five feet one", and she pretty much told David that if he felt annoyed over it, he should turn to Breen for help against that family friend, as she pretty much thought that (no literal quote but more of a summary of her rationale) "gays should be disciplined by their own kind when crossing red lines", but her son responded that he felt Breen would consider him "too old to still need help" to defend himself against unwanted attention (or that Breen had really, openly said so in response to the event, after 30 years MZB wasn't quite sure which). The opposite councellor immediately jumps upon this quote during her deposition to aggressively pretty much call this an open, clear-as-day confession from Been's own mouth that 13-year-olds were "too old" for his "sexual tastes" to finally have any smoking gun against both Breen and MZB at all and nag her again and again if this wasn't perfect proof that she'd known for all those years that Breen was after pre-adolescents and that she's concealed it all.

Being only a few weeks from her death at the time, under heavy medication according to the official protocol, already living in a home for the disabled, according to the Official Statement by the MZB Estate "dying of congestive heart failure", and weary after hours of enhanced interrogation by the opposite councellor, the deposition protocol shows she during that moment obviously cannot fully grasp the accusations and questions hauled at both her and Breen and only responds "yes" several times, and when she is then aggressively questioned "Yes, what?" several times persistently and protractedly, she ultimately repeats her original statement several times in open contradiction to the opposite counsellor's accusations and questions, which is that Breen had said (or her son felt he'd say) that her son had been "too old" at the time as to be needing any help against that family friend. It is there and then that her very last deposition session is abruptly ended out of health concerns, at the outspoken protest of said opposite counsellor interrogating her, and a few weeks after, she was dead.

So there. That's what official sources, documents, and statements say that have been linked above, and it's entirely in contradiction what this article paints Breen's sex life and legal record to have been, which in turn is based on a number of sources almost all of which only ultimately point directly or indirectly to a deleted private smear site that was originally put online in 1999 by an interested party with a financial interest, as well as an interest to not get sent to prison themselves, in maintaining their version which consists of painting both Breen and MZB as these two boogeymen with a "relevant history". --2003:71:4E07:BB70:A047:3A81:9919:9D4C (talk) 06:48, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The long-winded diatribe above shows that even now, child rapists like MZB and Breen can count on their sympathizers to make excuses for them and try to obscure the plain facts: Breen raped children, he was convicted for it, and Bradley helped him get away with it.  I know Moira Greyland, and I believe her, as the court did when they put this evil son of a bitch away for the remainder of his worthless life.  Shame on you for trying to minimize his crimes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:4f00:7d:e5a3:108a:12a6:357b (talk • contribs)
 * I will only add that the term "Breendoggle" is contemporary to the controversy within fandom over Breen's alleged behavior; and that the poster, apparently ignorant of science fiction fandom and its history, has somehow bizarrely managed to conflate the Breendoggle and the Trans-Atlantic Fan Fund! -- Orange Mike |  Talk  17:04, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

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Requested move 23 July 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved >>>  Ingenuity . talk ; 15:50, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Walter H. Breen → Walter Breen – Breen is seldom referred to with his middle initial, and there are no other Walter Breens such that disambiguation becomes necessary. Thanks. NotReallyMoniak (talk) 13:48, 23 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:16, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment. It should be noted that the correspondence, holograph notes and printed material from Walter H. Breen at Cornell University Library Division of Rare and Manuscript Collections is referenced as Walter H. Breen papers. He is also listed as "Walter H." at numismatics.org. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:27, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:14, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Support as per nomination. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!(talk or whatever) 07:41, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The "comment" above gives some evidence, but despite the support here, no evidence has been presented to support the claim that he is seldom referred to with his middle initial. Is there any? Dekimasu よ! 06:26, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support – my ProQuest search suggests that although a small minority of sources use the middle initial, "Walter Breen" does appear to be the common name, plus it's also preferable under WP:CONCISE. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:28, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lede sentence
The lede opens with child sex offender, NAMBLA activist before anything else. Seems, however, that most of the mentions on the wiki refer to his work as a numismatist. In other words, he's more notable as a numismatist rather than a child molester, or more appropriately, a numismatist who was a child molester rather than a child molester who was a numismatist.

I propose the lede should be revised along these lines, but I'm interested in hearing dissenting opinions since the topic is likely very touchy. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!(talk or whatever) 12:57, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Looking through the history, it seems the current word order is actually quite recent, changed by User:Sapphiremind with the summary Yeah, I put the words in a better order. It's more important that he was a pedophile and an activist for pedophiles, not LGBTQ people, unless you count advocating abusing young boys as advocating for LGBTQ. I'm going to be WP:BOLD and change the word order. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!(talk or whatever) 13:03, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Walter Breen


text: Talk:NFL Rejects

title: Talk:NFL Rejects


text:
User:Jabo~enwiki

This is just a way for me to save some writing i found: It doesnt pertain to you do not delete. // resources money spent the world is so much bigger than you or me how can one be afraid of people - and the games they play - out on the lawn and the tension and the impurities in the skin - watching yourself in the mirror and realizing how small and fucked up you are and how little you have accomplished -- but everyone is different and has things to make them happy, what makes you happy is not having to pay for happiness. learning how to be healthy and direct bloodflow to your face. scrounging pennies on the sidelines and using public resources and satisfying yourself with who you are and the extent of your ambitions. your ambition is to never change and to know lots of things worth talking about. some people are deep and act shallow, for others its the other way around. i want to pretend to be someone who has knowledge and advice to give. im always afraid of the consequences of becoming fidgety and wanting more than is directly available. and the city can be ugly, especially if your not confident and directly assertive. if you believe in yourself and have confidence you are right even if you know that you are wrong a little warmth can go a long way. and hispanic people who talk nonstop and look earnestly into your face. one was sick all the time. the other couldnt concentrate. the third didnt know what he wanted to do with his life -- maybe he would fall into pretension and become a hipster. we heard dancing and singing - but also the daily struggle of coming to this country and believing what people tell you. its hard to not have sympathy for the naivety of simply not knowing what your getting into. when the world thats in your head and the external world dont mesh sometimes you can be led astray. but she knew it was big and busy outside-- but instead she liked to confine herself to a single room, a pathway from front to back that she walked calmly many times during the day-- it gave her assurance. it was a big world out there, but she purposely made hers small. technology and standards and he was cleanshaven and well spoken and destined for a nice job and a nice life with a few standards of its own. he believed in good restaurants and independent films and pretending to be special. the fact is we all think were beautiful -- and we all are, in our own way, and to ourselves and to a few other people. we all think we have good posture, and something to contribute. and we all do, for a few people. but you cannot ask to burst out of your circle of a few people because outside of that is a very scary place -- all your assumptions and definitons become pointless. he worked on his goal slowly. people wondered at his ability to create something so beautiful in such a short time -- was he super percceptive and sensitive- -was he any different than most poeple? this question was built on a fallacy. and in the end what happens in our mind has little to do with what happens on the street. and she was so much better than him. and its hard to be secure with yourself when you are jealous of every single person that you see, for their freedom from doubt, their ambition, their steady purpose and ability to block out harmful things from their vision -- their gauranteed success in this world.

and the technology allows us to remember and it allows us to forget. and her voice sounded smooth and thin but it was alive and she wasnt afraid to use it. we grew up together. no we didnt thats a lie. the school is so big what are we doing here. we cant explain our backgrounds but sometimes we can laugh at the common jokes. im not common to anything because im just going to pass out.

title: User:Jabo~enwiki


text:
Picea rubens

Picea rubens, commonly known as red spruce, is a species of spruce native to eastern North America, ranging from eastern Quebec and Nova Scotia, west to the Adirondack Mountains and south through New England along the Appalachians to western North Carolina. This species is also known as yellow spruce, West Virginia spruce, eastern spruce, and he-balsam. Red spruce is the provincial tree of Nova Scotia.

Description

Red spruce is a perennial, shade-tolerant, late successional coniferous tree that under optimal conditions grows to 18 - 40 m tall with a trunk diameter of about 60 cm, though exceptional specimens can reach 46 m tall and 100 cm in diameter. It has a narrow conical crown. The leaves are needle-like, yellow-green, 12 - 15 mm long, four-sided, curved, with a sharp point, and extend from all sides of the twig. The bark is gray-brown on the surface and red-brown on the inside, thin, and scaly. The wood is light, soft, has narrow rings, and has a slight red tinge. The cones are cylindrical, 3 - 5 cm long, with a glossy red-brown color and stiff scales. The cones hang down from branches.

Habitat

Red spruce grows at a slow to moderate rate, lives for 250 to 450+ years, and is very shade-tolerant when young. It is often found in pure stands or forests mixed with eastern white pine, balsam fir, or black spruce. Along with Fraser fir, red spruce is one of two primary tree types in the southern Appalachian spruce-fir forest, a distinct ecosystem found only in the highest elevations of the Southern Appalachian Mountains. Its habitat is moist but well-drained sandy loam, often at high altitudes. Red spruce can be easily damaged by windthrow and acid rain.

Notable red spruce forests can be seen at Gaudineer Scenic Area, a virgin red spruce forest located in West Virginia, the Canaan Valley, Roaring Plains West Wilderness, Dolly Sods Wilderness, Spruce Mountain and Spruce Knob all also in West Virginia and all sites of former extensive red spruce forest. Some areas of this forest, particularly in Roaring Plains West Wilderness, Dolly Sods Wilderness as well as areas of Spruce Mountain are making a rather substantial recovery.

Related species
It is closely related to black spruce, and hybrids between the two are frequent where their ranges meet. Genetic data suggests that the red spruce peripatrically speciated from the black spruce during the Pleistocene due to glaciation.

Uses
Red spruce is used for Christmas trees and is an important wood used in making paper pulp. It is also an excellent tonewood, and is used in many higher-end acoustic guitars and violins, as well as musical soundboard. The sap can be used to make spruce gum. Leafy red spruce twigs are boiled with sugar and flavoring to make spruce beer. Also it can be made into spruce pudding. It can also be used as construction lumber and is good for millwork and for crates.

Damaging factors
Like most trees, red spruce is subject to insect parasitism. Their insect enemy is the spruce budworm, although it is a bigger problem for white spruce and balsam fir. Other issues that have been damaging red spruce have included the increase in acid rain and current climate change.

One of the consequences of acid rain deposition is the decrease of soil exchangeable calcium and increase of aluminum. This is because acid precipitation disrupts cation and nutrition cycling in forest ecosystems. Components of acid rain such as H+, NO3−, and SO42- limit the uptake of calcium by trees and can increase aluminum availability.

Calcium concentration is important for red spruce for physiological processes such as dark respiration and cold tolerance, as well as disease resistance, signal transduction, membrane and cell wall synthesis and function, and regulation of stomata. Conversely, dissolved aluminum can be toxic or can interfere with root uptake of calcium and other nutrients. At the ecosystem and community levels, Calcium availability is associated with community composition, mature tree growth, and ecosystem productivity. One study testing the effects of added aluminum to soil, found that P. rubens mortality rate increased under these conditions.

During the 1980s, increased acid deposition contributed to a loss of high-elevation red spruce trees, due to leached calcium and decreased freezing tolerance. Additionally, the structure of the spruce needle enhances the capture of water and particles, which has been shown to add to soil acidification, nutrient leaching, and forest decline.

However, more recently, reductions in acid deposition have contributed to red spruce resurgence in some mountain areas in the northeastern United States. This increase in red spruce growth has been associated with an increase in rainfall pH, which reduces bulk acidic deposition. This suggests that policies aiming to reduce atmospheric pollution in this area have been effective, although other species sensitive to soil acidification, such as sugar maple, are still continuing to decline.

Conservation
The red spruce has low genetic diversity as well as a narrow ecological niche, meaning the tree is easily susceptible to changes within its environment. The Central Appalachian Spruce Restoration Initiative (CASRI) seeks to unite diverse partners with the goal of restoring historic red spruce ecosystems across the high-elevation landscapes of central Appalachians. The partners that make up this diverse group are Appalachian Mountain Joint Venture, Appalachian Regional Reforestation Initiative, Canaan Valley National Wildlife Refuge, Natural Resources Conservation Service, The Mountain Institute, The Nature Conservancy, Trout Unlimited, U.S. Forest Service Northern Research Station, U.S. Forest Service Monongahela National Forest, West Virginia Division of Natural Resources, West Virginia Division of Forestry, West Virginia Highlands Conservancy, West Virginia State Parks, and West Virginia University.

Prior to the late 1800s, 600,000 ha of red spruce were in West Virginia. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, a vast amount of logging began in the state and the number of red spruce dwindled to 12,000 ha. Silviculture is being used to help restore the population of the lost red spruce.

Significant efforts have been made to increase the growth of red spruce trees in western North Carolina. Most notably by Molly Tartt on behalf of the Daughters of the American Revolution. Tartt, a resident of Brevard North Carolina, embarked on a mission to find the lost red spruce Pisgah Forest that had been planted by the DAR as a memorial to the lives lost during the American Revolution. The forest, consisting of 50,000 trees was dedicated in 1940 and had until recently been forgotten until Tartt located and identified the forest.

title: Picea rubens


text:
Talk:Julie Billiart

The dates don't agree for the day Julie Billiart died
On the page, it lists both 8 April and 13 May as the day that Julie Billiart died. One of these dates is also the date of her beatification. I don't want to edit anything just yet, but I wanted to let someone know. AdustKitten237 (talk) 23:57, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Julie Billiart


text:
Talk:Wally Heider Studios

Albums Recorded
I just put in a couple of albums, but there must be 100's that were recorded here. Someone with more knowledge might like to add to this article. JoeD80 (talk) 23:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

 * There are probably more albums mentioned casually among the stories written here and here. I don't know a place where all the albums are listed specifically. Binksternet (talk) 01:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Los Angeles
I can't really add anything as I don't have any definitive references, but there was (or still is?) definitely a Wally Heider Studios in Los Angeles before the San Francisco studio opened. The Beach Boys did some recordings there in September 1967, specifically re-recording much of their live "Lei'd In Hawaii" album. -Dauber Special:Contributions/99.46.65.242

Pacific High Studios - Pacific High Recording Studios - Pacific High Recorders
Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk)
 * You've Got the Power
 * Stand!
 * Wally Heider Studios
 * Joy of Cooking (band)
 * It's a Beautiful Day
 * Early Flight
 * Mexico (Jefferson Airplane song)
 * Blows Against the Empire
 * Workingman's Dead
 * Aoxomoxoa
 * Casey Jones (song)
 * Uncle John's Band
 * Almost Independence Day
 * Wonderful Remark
 * Hound Dog (song)
 * Primordial Lovers
 * Lost in the Ozone
 * The Charlatans (American band)
 * The Charlatans (1969 album)
 * Saint Dominic's Preview (song)
 * Saint Dominic's Preview
 * Rock Festival (album)
 * Neville G. Pemchekov Warwick
 * Quicksilver Messenger Service
 * Shady Grove (Quicksilver Messenger Service album)
 * Jackie Wilson Said (I'm in Heaven When You Smile)
 * Here We Are Again (Country Joe and the Fish album)

title: Talk:Wally Heider Studios


text:
Talk:Council for the Development of French in Louisiana

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 October 2021 and 13 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): DNUWwikiF. Peer reviewers: Ckw27.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:33, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Citation Error
The citation for the criticism of Le Conseil links to the about.com conjugation for the verb venir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.190.186 (talk) 20:41, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I fixed this error. --Skb8721 (talk) 14:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

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Talk:Al-Tabari

Herr Beethoven's removal of my improvement of the Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari article in Wikipedia (10 July 2012)
Dear Herr Beethoven: I don't understand who has empowered you to decide what is and what is not constructive in the Wikipedia al-Tabari article, and thence to control the contributions of others. For your information, present-day scholarship notes al-Tabari's conspicuous errors; by removing this fact, you are misleading the reader. Please retain my emendation to the article, or I will rectify the matter through Google. Sincerely,    74.162.153.99 (talk) 02:55, 10 July 2012 (UTC) Grisham Welles Monday, 10 July 2012

 * What you wrote may very well be true. However, you need to cite your sources for anything that could be challenged. Otherwise we can't tell whether or not it is really true. Herr Beethoven (talk) 04:18, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

"Al-Tabari"
I thought that they say "At-Tabari", the L changed to a T because the next word starts with that consonant. You also see that with other letters, such as in these examples : So "At-Tabari" should also appear in bold chars in the introductory sentence (perhaps replacing "Al-Tabari" altogether?). —Jerome Potts (talk) 09:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * As-salam, such as in the "As-salamu alaykum" greeting
 * At-Tawbah, the 9th sūrah of the Qur'an,
 * Ar-Ra'd, the 13th sūrah,
 * An-Nahl, the 16th,
 * As-Sajda, the 32nd,
 * Az-Zumar, the 39th
 * As-Safir, a former newspaper in Lebanon ; As-Safira, a city in Syria
 * At-Tuwani, a Palestinian village
 * See Sun and moon letters - it’s not as straightforward as when it’s followed by a consonant. But I don’t believe the spelling in Arabic changes anyway - it’s only the way it’s pronounced. As noted in that article the convention normally followed when transliterating a name of a person into Latin script is to maintain the Al. Google books gives 200k returns for “Al Tabari” and 90k returns for “At Tabari”. I would say it’s not necessary to give both versions - which (AFAIK) is the norm for articles with Arabic names on English WP. DeCausa (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for this explanation and pointer, which led me to Arabic definite article.—Jerome Potts (talk) 04:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Recent edits have made me interested to read more about Al-Tabari. In reference 3, the following is mentioned: "None of those ancestors can be identified any further (although there seems to be an implication in some of the sources that Kaṯir b. Ḡāleb was a known personality), and about all that can be said about them is that they have Arabic names. However, Ṭabari is never known to have claimed or to have had attributed to him any tribal affiliation and is always called by his regional nesba. He certainly knew some Persian, and his history showed more than a passing interest in subjects concerning his homeland, but that proves little. When he was asked about his ancestry, he was deliberately vague and quoted a verse belittling the importance of such genealogies (Yāqut, Odabāʾ VI, p. 428; see Rosenthal, 1989, pp. 12-13 on the possible moralizing aspect of this anecdote). There is thus no way of knowing for certain whether Ṭabari’s family was native to the Āol region or perhaps arrived with the wave of Muslim colonists after the Abbasid revolution, either as converts or Arab settlers"

Isn't this source claiming the opposite of what is supposed to claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moor919 (talk • contribs) 00:57, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Confusion about one of the references
Recent edits have made me interested to read more about Al-Tabari. In reference 3, the following is mentioned: "None of those ancestors can be identified any further (although there seems to be an implication in some of the sources that Kaṯir b. Ḡāleb was a known personality), and about all that can be said about them is that they have Arabic names. However, Ṭabari is never known to have claimed or to have had attributed to him any tribal affiliation and is always called by his regional nesba. He certainly knew some Persian, and his history showed more than a passing interest in subjects concerning his homeland, but that proves little. When he was asked about his ancestry, he was deliberately vague and quoted a verse belittling the importance of such genealogies (Yāqut, Odabāʾ VI, p. 428; see Rosenthal, 1989, pp. 12-13 on the possible moralizing aspect of this anecdote). There is thus no way of knowing for certain whether Ṭabari’s family was native to the Āol region or perhaps arrived with the wave of Muslim colonists after the Abbasid revolution, either as converts or Arab settlers"

Isn't this source claiming the opposite of what is supposed to claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moor919 (talk • contribs) 01:10, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * , depends on what you want it to claim, I suppose? ;-) There are two sources given for the claim in the article that at-Tabari was of "either Persian or Arab origin"; reference 4 rather clearly describes him as being "Persian by origin", meaning that really, all that we could expect reference 3 to add to the sentence is the "Arab" part, which is indeed mentioned at the end of your quote. Personally, I feel that the relegation of "Arab settlers" to the end of the paragraph implies that there was a rather remote chance that this was the case, and I don't see why it is being given equal weight to the more logical idea, also supported by sources (including this very one), that he was of some sort of Iranian ethnicity, but consensus appears to be against me here. M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 13:25, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I checked the two sources for ethnicity and [3] states "Iranian" whereas [4] states "Persian". Where in there does it state any possibility of him being an Arab by origin, exactly? --Qahramani44 (talk) 01:14, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * um, had you actually read the thread to which you were replying, you would have known that one of the sources clearly says Ṭabari’s family ... perhaps arrived with the wave of Muslim colonists after the Abbasid revolution, ... as ... Arab settlers. M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 02:05, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * See also Rosenthal's introduction (pp. 12-13): Tabari himself discouraged speculation about his ancestry. When he was asked ... he replied by quoting a verse in which the famous Umayyad poet deprecated pride in one's pedigree. Wiqi(55)  06:58, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

 * It is important to emphasize that the disagreement here is not about whether it was mentioned before that he was of Persian ancestry. It is about this claim being disputed in secondary sources. It seems ambiguity always existed precisely because of how Altabari wished to be viewed by others. The current writing of the article simply doesn't convey this ambiguity although it was mentioned in the references included in this very article. I believe my way of writing does make it clear. Moor9119 (talk) 16:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Now I'm confused. How does Persian or Arab fail to "convey this ambiguity", as opposed to a definitive "Persian"? M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 20:40, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

 * No, this works fine. What I meant to say is calling him Persian only doesn't convey the ambiguity. Moor9119 (talk) 11:19, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

 * Deducing from this sentence : "Ṭabari’s family ... perhaps arrived with the wave of Muslim colonists after the Abbasid revolution, ... as ... Arab settlers" that Tabari was perhaps an Arab sounds WP:OR in my humble opinion, since someone can have Arab ancestors without being an Arab, especially when the sources explicitly support a Persian ethnicity. In other words, the only uncertainty here is about Tabari's origins, not about his ethnicity. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  19:36, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

 * yes and i added two source from cambrige and harvard but someone deleted these source that say who was a persian

 * I find your statement about how ancestry is not necessarily linked to ethnicity to be interesting. It is new to me to be honest. I also would like to add to this discussion the following quote from the Encyclopedia of Islam that added as an answer to my question to him on his talk page. The quote reads: "whether the family was of indigenous stock or descended from Arab colonists in Tabaristan is unknown." In addition, there is a part of the quote included at the beginning of this discussion that reads: "He certainly knew some Persian". The point I am trying to make is that it can't be that the sources support without any doubt that he was an ethnic Persian as you mentioned if all of the above (him being possibly a descendant of Arabs and him not necessarily being fluent in Persian) is being written about Al-Tabari. Plus, the sources never actually discuss his ethnicity and conclude that he was Persian. This is not as strong as one might understand from your statement because Persian and Iranian have been frequently used interchangeably in many secondary sources.  But, I guess maybe others here can see things differently from me. Let's hope some people add their opinions to this discussion. Moor9119 (talk) 17:14, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I find your statement about how ancestry is not necessarily linked to ethnicity to be interesting: I mean, it's worth noting that per DNA testing, I'm of at least partial Dagestani (or possibly Azerbaijani, Talysh, etc.) ancestry, yet that doesn't make me ethnically Caucasian (I'm as Punjabi as it gets). M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 18:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand your point. But does that mean you are in favor of listening to how people define their own ethnicity or in favor of using an objective set of measures? Either way, in the case of Al-Tabari, it is clear he was purposely ambiguous about it and that he didn't exhibit clear signs of being of one ethnicity. Otherwise, why would this discussion continue to be a thing he avoids talking about? Moor9119 (talk) 18:59, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Do we have reliable sources supporting that Al-Tabari was an ethnic Arab ? As i said above, it looks to me that the only uncertainty is about his origins, not about his ethnicity (both cited sources say that he was a Persian). If there is no reliable sources explicitly supporting an Arab ethnicity, then "Arab" should be removed, as per WP:OR. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  21:53, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

 * The part of the article being discussed currently already reads as follows: "Iranian ... of either a Persian or Arab origin." Moor9119 (talk) 22:40, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, just seen it right now, then it's fine by me. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  23:42, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Moving his origin/background from the lead section to Biography
I think this is a similar case like Al-Farabi. Removing ethnicity from the lead and expanding the Biography would be a good solution.  Wario-Man  talk 06:21, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

 * I personally disagree. I think the way it is written now is clear and in accordance with what is stated in the sources provided. It is clear that whomever provided the sources originally never actually read carefully through them and I have yet to see any strong arguments against the way it is written now. The recent edits were all based on personal knowledge. Moor9119 (talk) 13:43, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

 * It's not about being well-writen or well-sourced. The lead section is a summary of the whole article. When some stuff are uncertain/disputed or there is no consensus in the references and scholars' works, we better move those stuff to the body of article and expand/clarify the relevant section(s). Since I never really involved myself in contributing to this article, I ping other editors who are involved in the recent edits on this article. Your thoughts?  Wario-Man  talk 06:27, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

 * Agree with Wario-Man. Per WP:LEAD, whether he’s of Arab or Persian ethnic origin is important why? There seems to be some editors exercised by that debate but it appears to me (at least) to be an esoteric rabbit hole of little interest, and certainly not enough for the lead. The fact that he’s Iranian is good enough there. Discussion on his deeper family origins is better suited for the main body of the article. And Moor9119, whether it’s well written and well sourced is not the question. It’s where in the article those well-written well sourced words should appear in order to comply with WP:LEAD. DeCausa (talk) 10:27, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I think it helps in explaining "Iranian", which can be misconstrued as an ethnic claim. Al-Farabi doesn't have that problem. Wiqi(55) 12:22, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * MOS:ETHNICITY: “ Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.” Don’t think it is in this case.DeCausa (talk) 14:36, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 14:57, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * MOS:ETHNICITY also applies to "Iranian", so we should get rid of that too, right? We already have "from Amol, Tabaristan (modern Mazandaran Province of Iran)" which is factual and doesn't imply any ethnic connotations. Wiqi(55) 15:44, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "Iranian" is a national identification (not an ethnic identifier), but as it's a modern country, I don't see any issue with removing this. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 15:49, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree with DeCausa.--Kansas Bear (talk) 15:58, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , Iranian can most certainly be an ethnic designator as well, and that meaning is certainly the first one that comes to my mind when used in pre-modern contexts. In fact, if we are to treat it as a nationality in this context, that raises a plethora of questions about many Central Asian figures (just to give one example, consider Imam Bukhari: would we list him as an ethnic Tajik or an Uzbek by nationality? Neither: he's "Persian" for our purposes). Eliminating mention of Iran almost entirely also smells suspiciously of the usual Arab-washing of Islamic history. M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 23:29, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

 * To be honest, I don't understand why whether he was Persian or Arab is important either. I have found all of this to be a good exercise in learning about the rules of Wikipedia and also in learning about how western scholars view Islamic history. Certainly, ethnicity seems to be overly emphasized on Wikipedia which makes the existence of MOS:ETHNICITY a little confusing to me. I guess this is because personally I have always understood that notability of important figures in early Islamic history almost always stems from how that person was involved with someone with authority like some governor or some school, rather than with some united ethnic (or national) group. But, I guess I have to keep navigating around to make more sense of English Wikipedia articles. Moor9119 (talk) 23:42, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I’ve gone ahead and boldly moved the Iranian/Persian/Arab reference out of the lead into the Biography section to comply with MOS:ETHNICITY. DeCausa (talk) 23:46, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

 * Also, there is no such thing such thing as the 'usual Arab washing.' If people choose to read Islamic history away from ethnic considerations when ethnic backgrounds didn't dictate what happened, and it so happened that the people being studied used only Arabic in their writings and had Arabic names, that doesn't mean Arabs now are trying hard to 'Arab-wash' the history of Islam. This is simply false. Moor9119 (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

 * You're entitled to your opinion. I think it's pretty obvious why people are trying to rebrand the Muslim Golden Age as the "Arab Golden Age", and why people have been spreading the lie for centuries that Iran never truly accepted Islam because they couldn't tolerate Arab domination, etc. There's a difference between simply using Arabic names and actively denying that non-Arabs ever contributed to Islam, and I run into the latter on a near-daily basis. M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 00:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Agree with the removal of his ethnicity from the lead section. ---Wikaviani  (talk) (contribs)  00:17, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

 * Feel free to correct people when they state something which is wrong. No need to make such general statements. Unless you are into history, you are bound to think of every muslim as Arab. It is hard to make the distinction without serious study to be honest. Nothing being organized here to deny anyone anything. Moor9119 (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Unless you are into history, you are bound to think of every muslim as Arab. It is hard to make the distinction without serious study to be honest. Um, what? Either you worded that poorly or you are terribly, terribly wrong. Over 80 percent of Muslims today are non-Arab. Knowing that doesn't require any knowledge of history at all, and yet I run into Arabs all the time who are unable to wrap their head around the fact that I'm proudly Muslim yet have zero interest in belonging to their ethnicity or culture. This is exactly the problem: somehow they seem incapable of imagining how little of a connection there is between their ethnic identity and the religion that they happen to follow, and so we are gaslighted and denied us our importance in the ummah through dogwhistles like "history" and "[requires] serious study" (compare, for example, my local Muslim Student Association, which said Persia and Central Asia would be "too advanced" of a topic for a talk but had no qualms covering the openly Arab supremacist Umayyads; coincidence? I think not). Also, want to declare your alternative account? M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 00:42, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

 * This is all irrelevant to the main discussion of the how the Al-Tabari article should be written. I have nothing to add with regards to the recent edit, so I will respectfully not reply to your statements here. Moor9119 (talk) 01:12, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Talk:Al-Tabari Is an Article Talk Page
User:Moor9119, User:Xerxes1985, User:شاه عباس - This is the article talk page, and is where to discuss edits. Edit summaries are not a satisfactory alternative to discussion on an article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:06, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Athari?
Is Tabari really an Athari? Do these theological schools even exist during Tabari's life-time? Somewhere in the article, Tabari appears to be distinguished by Hanbalites (Atharis?) for his "heretic" beliefs. So are the source properly understood citing him an "Athari"? 2A01:C23:895A:A900:7D46:18B5:309A:E62D (talk) 17:56, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Proposed guideline regarding Islamic honorifics and user-generated calligraphic images
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles. ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 20:03, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Ethnicity
Almost all of the sources of this article says he was of Iranian or Persian origin on what basis said here he was an Arab? Alihd23 (talk) 20:09, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Recent changes
some of the changes you made in : Good: Mistakes:
 * Deleting "Iranian" from short description
 * Deleting "polymath" from occupations
 * Deleting "seventh-century": obvious mistake; however, it should've been changed to the correct form, not removed.
 * Changing "Qur’ān" to "Quran"
 * Changing "traditionist" to "traditionalist": two separate words; traditionist is a translation of muhaddith and traditionalist is a translation of Athari.
 * Deleting details such as "Sunni"
 * Deleting legitimate occupations: four or five isn't "too many"; there are several articles that already list more than that. Al-Tabari is well-known for his theology and jurisprudence and was active in those fields, so I see no reason it should be failed to mentioned as his occupation.
 * Deleting links in the introduction: why? Every single article has these linked in this place.
 * Replacing Arabic/Islamic links with general ones: again, why? Al-Tabari literally worked in those exact fields and we have articles for them. I don't see why we should get rid of it and link to a general article.
 * Changing the definite article -al to always be capitalized: read WP:Manual of Style/Arabic.
 * Changing the name of Qur'an Tabari.jpg: wrecked the image.
 * Removing quotation around a source: direct copy of the source and not paraphrased, so it must have quotations.
 * Adding romanization of books in introduction: unneeded clutter and against Wikipedia's style; again, see the MOS.

Overall, this isn't an improvement; yet, now you've reverted to an older version with no explanation. Yasinzayd (talk) 03:06, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Al-Tabari


text:
Talk:Sidiq Koya

Untitled
I can't log in for the time being, but Siddiq Koya needs to be created as a redirect to this page. 82.121.239.101 (talk) 15:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sidiq Koya


text:
Talk:Serafino Dubois

old talk
This article is marked as POV and cleanup, but I can't really see any grave issues with neither, particularly with the neutrality. Of couse, most articles can allways be improved uppon, but that doesn't automatically make them candidates for cleanup. This one is on par. I propose to remove the tags in a couple of weeks if no one objects. -Frodet 17:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Second the motion. I'll go ahead and do that now. Kerowyn 06:42, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Chessmetrics and WP:UNDUE
Chessmetrics has many shortcomings, particularly for 19th century players. Sometimes players drop off the list for several years at a time then come back, in the mean time a lesser player has taken over the number one ranking spot. Does anybody seriously believe Berthold Suhle was the world #1 player between 1865 and 1867? Another, perhaps more accurate historical rating system can be found at edochess.ca; they rate Dubois #5 at his peak, which sounds more realistic to me than #1. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:35, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Chessmetrics has no rated games for Dubois during the 2.5-year period when it has him ranked #1. And even Edochess ratings and rankings have to be taken with a huge grain of salt: Dubois was ranked #7 at the end of 1860 and #5 at the end of 1861, even though neither he nor the two people he passed on the rating list (Petrov and Harrwitz) played a single game that year. Misuse of these historical rating websites is a frequent problem with our chess biographies. Cobblet (talk) 09:06, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Serafino Dubois


text:
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Demoscene/archive1

Demoscene
An interesting article regarding an amazingly creative and artistic subculture which was born from the hands of software pirates during the 1980s and continues to thrive in the 21st century. I believe this document is worthy of being a featured article on Wikipedia. —RaD Man (talk) 23:57, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Object and refer to peer review. Needs copy-edit for one. Consider sentences like: When a cracked program was started, the cracker or his team would take credit via an increasingly impressive-looking graphical introduction or intro. Over what period of time does the impressiveness of the artwork increase? Or: Since any given computer platform before the PC age meant every computer of a given line had identical capabilities, a comparison between demos on earlier platforms was directly possible. This sentence is barely comprehensible. Generally, the prose is not outstanding.
 * The author is also obviously fascinated by the subject, as the article has a rather biased tone: Where games/application writers were concerned with stability/functionality of their software, the demo writer was typically interested in how many CPU cycles a routine would consume and how best to squeeze as much effects and activity onto the screen. or most demos were written by groups with interesting names. Moreover, the prose to links ratio is extraordinarily low. See for example the Parties section, a collection of over a dozen links, with little to no context. (What is a party in this context?)
 * Lastly, the use of two images by the same demoscene artist group also feels like advertising. Images are for representative illustration purposes: if the cultural movement in question is large enough to deserve an article, the images should represent a broader spectrum of demoscene graphics. Phils 00:53, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Object Couldn't understand the first sentence, and stopped after there (sorry). Let me know when you've done a copyedit and I'll re-read, jguk 00:58, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Peer Review. Nice subject, and will be a good candidate with some work, specifically:
 * 1) Technical aspects... most readers will associate a PC demo with either a) A preview of a video game or b) a product showcase. PC demos are much, much more than that - can we go into the technical aspects of what makes a PC Demo so special?
 * 2) Parties are briefly skipped over, "Assembly" and "The Party in particular have had an enormous impact on the scene and this needs discussed
 * 3) Groups are hardly mentioned (Farbrausch is singled out for fr-08, but that's about it). Some focus on some of the more influential groups is needed... off the top of my head Future Crew, Triton, TMD are particularly influential but there are others
 * 4) Particular demos... can we go into a little more detail on this?
 * 5) POV issues need to be resolved, it's not bad but it could be better. Zerbey 01:22, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Refer to Peer Review. What they^ said.  — mark ✎ 00:55, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Object. The list-to-text ratio is pretty high. Only 7 paragraphs - it needs much more text, and the list of groups should probably be broken out into its own article, with mentions of notable groups in the main article. Rhobite 02:41, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fireball 999

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. Joyous 18:28, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

Fireball 999
This "company" looks like either fiction or vanity - I can't find any evidence that it exists. CDC  (talk)  23:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete. I can't find anything on either 'Fireball 999' or 'Rhodium design'.  At least one of these should have been spelled correctly.  After having the failed google search to make me sensibly suspicious I re-read and decided that it did not make sense.  (nice techno-babble, though).  Conclusion: Probably hoax. RJFJR 02:57, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Vanity. Radiant! 10:33, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete likely hoax. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 12:46, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text: Category:Baking

title: Category:Baking


text:
Intrinsic equation

In geometry, an intrinsic equation of a curve is an equation that defines the curve using a relation between the curve's intrinsic properties, that is, properties that do not depend on the location and possibly the orientation of the curve. Therefore an intrinsic equation defines the shape of the curve without specifying its position relative to an arbitrarily defined coordinate system.

The intrinsic quantities used most often are arc length $$ s $$, tangential angle $$ \theta $$, curvature $$\kappa$$ or radius of curvature, and, for 3-dimensional curves, torsion $$\tau $$. Specifically:
 * The natural equation is the curve given by its curvature and torsion.
 * The Whewell equation is obtained as a relation between arc length and tangential angle.
 * The Cesàro equation is obtained as a relation between arc length and curvature.

The equation of a circle (including a line) for example is given by the equation $$\kappa(s) = \tfrac{1}{r}$$ where $$s$$ is the arc length, $$\kappa$$ the curvature and $$r$$ the radius of the circle.

These coordinates greatly simplify some physical problem. For elastic rods for example, the potential energy is given by
 * $$E= \int_0^L B \kappa^2(s)ds $$

where $$B$$ is the bending modulus $$EI$$. Moreover, as $$\kappa(s) = d\theta/ds$$, elasticity of rods can be given a simple variational form.

title: Intrinsic equation