text:
Franz Abt

Franz Wilhelm Abt (22 December 1819 – 31 March 1885) was a German composer and choral conductor. He composed roughly 3,000 individual works mostly in the area of vocal music. Several of his songs were at one time universally sung, and have obtained a more or less permanent place in the popular repertory. Abt was a renowned choral conductor, and he spent much of the last three decades of his life working as a guest conductor with choirs throughout Europe and in the United States.

Biography
Abt was born at Eilenburg in Prussian Saxony, and showed musical talent at an early age. His father was a clergyman and a talented pianist, and it is he who gave Franz his earliest instruction in music. Like his father, Abt was interested in both music and theology, and he followed both pursuits at the Thomasschule Leipzig and Leipzig University with the ultimate intention of becoming a member of the clergy. While in school, Abt became friends with Albert Lortzing, Felix Mendelssohn, and Robert Schumann.

Upon the death of his father in 1837, Abt abandoned his theological studies and decided to concentrate entirely on music. It is at this time that he began to compose and publish music, mostly works for the piano which were written for performance in Leipzig's salons. In 1841 Abt became kapellmeister at Bernburg, then moved to Zürich in the same year where he became an immensely popular and skilled choirmaster, often conducting his own compositions. While in Zürich he was appointed director of almost all of the city's numerous choral societies in succession, often winning prizes for them. In 1852 Abt returned to Germany to become musical director at the court theater in Braunschweig where he served until 1882.

Abt also remained active as a choral conductor during his time in Braunschweig. He was appointed director of the Hofkapelle in 1855, serving in that position for many years. He was also frequently invited to conduct choirs in many capital cities of Europe during the 1850s through the 1880s, having at this point developed an international reputation. He notably toured the U.S. in 1872 where he was received with overwhelming enthusiasm by music critics and the public alike. By 1882, his busy schedule wore him down to a state of ill health and he was forced to retire to Wiesbaden where he died in 1885. He is buried in the Südfriedhof (South Cemetery) In Wiesbaden.

Music
Abt's compositions comprise more than 600 opus numbers which make up over 3,000 individual items. He was primarily a composer of vocal music and was particularly prolific in writing music for male choirs which he thought was lacking in sufficient literature. Indeed, his greatest successes in Germany and Switzerland were obtained in part-songs for men's voices. Abt was also successful in writing choral music for mixed choruses both a cappella and with either piano or orchestral accompianement. He also wrote numerous popular vocal art songs for solo voice, part songs for multiple voices, and several songs for children.

Abt's compositional style betrays an easy fluency of invention, couched in pleasing popular forms, but without pretence to depth or individuality. Many of his songs, were at one time universally sung, and have obtained a more or less permanent place in the popular repertory. Several were translated into English by Helen Tretbar. Due to their simple and melodic style some of Abt's songs, such as Wenn die Schwalben heimwärts ziehn and Die stille Wasserrose are easily mistaken for genuine folksong.

Abt's other compositions include three operas: Des Königs Scharfschütz, Die Hauptprobe, and Reisebekanntschaften. In the early part of his life Abt composed much for the piano, chiefly pieces of light salon character. These have never had the same popularity as his vocal works.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Franz Abt


text:
Talk:Tsutomu Shimomura

Picture
Where is Tsutomu Shimomura supposed to be in the picture? Is he Deth Vegetable? No mention of this alias is in the article. Alvis 04:39, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * The photograph is a screenshot of Freedom Downtime, where someone identified as Shimomura climbs on stage. It seems that this person was misidentified and is in fact Deth Vegetable. Someone needs to review the film to acertain this thing. Rama 08:22, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I seem to recall that the picture shows volunteers from an audience at a hacker conference acting scences from Takedown. Tsutomu Shimomura is not in the picture. Tim Ivorson 10:18, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Woops... now that also makes the identification of Mitnick questionable... Does anyone happen to have the DVD and be able to do the verification ? (I have it but I am not a native English speaker, so I am afraid of losing details like that :/ ) Rama 10:45, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * That's definetely not Mitnick or Tsutomu, I'm changing the caption.

 * Well, if it's none of the two, it doesn't make sense anymore to put this photograph on Mitnick or Tsutomumora. I'm removing them -- of course, if there's objections to that, we can discuss but I imagine it's more reasonble, isn't it ? Rama 10:59, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Copyvio
Considering everything here is lifted straight from, isn't it a copyvio? Or is that site a mirror or something? Shiri — Talk 21:44, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

 * I does indeed look very mcuh like a copyvio now... Rama 22:17, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Restored latest "home-made" version. Rama 22:23, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Good show. I was going to do that, but I wasn't sure if I needed to list it on Copyright problems first or whatever. Shiri — Talk 22:32, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Name
The article is listed in Category:Hackers under S for Shimomura and the article seems to use Shimomura as a surname. However, it is more usual for modern Japanese names to be written surname first. Is Tsutomu his surname and, if so, should the article be under T for Tsutomu? Tim Ivorson 11:47, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Tsutomu Shimomura is a citizen of the USA, and is therefore not necessarly bound by Japanese tradition. Unless I am mistaken, Tsutomu is the first name (not so frequent, yet you can find other examples) and Shimomura the family name. Rama 13:33, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Ok. Thanks. Tim Ivorson 08:43, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Rama, Tsutomu is a resident of the USA, but my understanding is that he is actually a citizen of Japan. But he HAS lived most of his life in the US, and speaks completely unnaccented English, and so is accustomed to American culture.  Possibly he is a Dual Citizen; the US doesn't recognize Dual Citizenship but some other countries do.  I am not dead certain that this is the Gospel Truth, but when Tsutomu was hired as a Nuclear Weapons Designer at Los Alamos National Laboratory, someone - it may have been a common friend, or it may have been Tsutomu himself - told me that the United States Congress passed a law to grant Tsutomu - and ONLY Tsutomu! - a Q Clearance, the clearance required to design nuclear weapons.  That's because it has been Capital Treason to pass Nuclear Secrets to a foreigner ever since Julius and Ethel Rosenberg and Klaus Fuchs were discovered to have been leaking Manhattan Project secrets to the Soviet Union.  MichaelCrwford 50.131.200.103 (talk) 13:28, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Arrogance
Like many other internet "personalities", shimomura is widely known for his arrogance. He is demeaning and insulting to everyone around him -- coworkers, academic colleagues, even the law enforcement officials he worked with! That takes real balls. No idea how this can be presented as a neutral POV but it's an important data point about him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.109.251.117 (talk • contribs) 09:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC).
 * I added the Sterling quote from "Freedom Downtime." As an interview quote from a documentary, I believe it's a suitable source. Rob T Firefly 18:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * So he enabled the net monitor mode on a cellphone... Big deal, i had it enabled on a Motorola StarTAC back in high school. The only thing that quote illustrates is the author's lack of knowledge. 78.0.151.217 14:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Widely known by people who don't know him I presume.
 * I know him, very very well. He is in fact arrogant; those who aren't up to snuff he regards as "ankle biters".

Legal Pictures of Tsutomu on Their Way
I have many pictures of Tsutomu that I shot while he and I were fellow Physics Majors in the Caltech Ricketts House Class of 1986, as well as others that I took when another Institute friend and I spent a weekend at his place in La Jolla in 1989.

I own the copyright in all those pictures, and so I have the authority to place an appropriate license on them that would be suitable for Wikipedia. I will of course study the licensing terms before I actually upload any of them.

It's going to be a while before I can actually upload any of the photos, as they are in a storage facility in Canada, where I once lived, and will remain there for a while until I get settled somewhere that has enough space to put all that stuff once I get it delivered. But I AM quite certain that I have some good photos of him: I am quite a serious photographer, and Tsutomu is an excellent subject for artistic photography.

Some shots were taken with 35mm Kodachrome Slide Film, and were well-focussed, composed, and being a slower speed of Kodachrome, have rich color and extremely high resolution. I expect I can get PhotoCD Scans of them.

Like Kevin Mitnick, I played with the Sun Workstation in Tsutomu's living room, but I had the G-d Given Sense to ask PERMISSION first! MichaelCrawford 50.131.200.103 (talk) 13:38, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

External Link to "Ankle Biters" Essay
I am Wikipedia member MichaelCrawford, but I've been posting without logging in because I have some email trouble that prevents me from resetting my password. I'll fix that problem soon, but have not had the headspace to deal with it.

Just a little while ago, I added an external link to my essay [Allow Me to Show You Ankle Biters How It's Done] at [Solving the Software Problem].

The first part of that essay, while strictly speaking a work of fiction, quite accurately portrays my experience of what Tsutomu is really like as a person.

When I posted that External Link, my Edit Summary quite clearly said to refer to this Talk Page for my explanation of why I posted it, some further details as to how I got to know Tsutomu so well, as well as my identification of myself as user MichaelCrawford.

But it could not have possibly been more than three or four MINUTES after I saved that edit, well before I had any time to post anything at all to this Talk Page, before User_Talk:Solarra accused me of an act of vandalism, and reverted my edit.

That was anything but vandalism!

Just now I posted a lengthy explanation to her User Talk Page. After posting it, I read over her other items there, and noted that many others - including some more-experienced Wikipedia editors - take her to task for her overzealous deletions of new article contributions.

Considering that only three or four minutes elapsed between my post and her reversion, that my Edit Summary specifically said to refer to the Talk Page, that she reverted my edit with any warning to or discussion with me, and that she posted nothing at all to the Talk Page, I humbly submit that it was completely inappropriate of her to revert my link, and that Solarra would do well to curb her overzealous enthusiasm.

If any editor at all has a problem with that link, I invite them to discuss it with me HERE, in the Talk Page, rather than summarily deleting it before anyone else gets a chance to even look at it.

That's what these Talk Pages are for after all.

I was all set to re-post my External Link, when Solarra replied to my post in her User Talk page to suggest that I initiated a discussion right here in hopes at arriving at a consensus.

I am completely cool with that. HOWEVER:

That is what Solarra HERSELF should have done, rather than just nuking my submission outright. If she found my link there and had some problem with it, I assert she should have left it be, but instead asked here in the Talk Page as to whether it should be removed.

I expect that my edits have been getting reverted as I have been editing without logging in. But in every single Edit Summary I ask that one refer to the talk page, where I explain that I am not logging in because I cannot.

Perhaps Wikipedia's anti-spam code has too much of a hair trigger.

User_Talk:MichaelCrawford 50.131.200.103 (talk) 16:49, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

 * User:MichaelCrawford Apology (more or less) issued by Solarra at User_talk:Solarra/Archive_1. The link in question is not on the page, dead, and not in archive.is or archive.org.-- Elvey (t•c) 22:41, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Tsutomu Shimomura


text:
User talk:Bryanjjones

Your edit to University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, along with your summary, shows that you don't understand how links work on Wikipedia. It said Environmental Sciences and you changed it to Environmental Sciences. The page titled Environmental Science with an incorrectly captialized S is of course a redirect page, to the page titled environmental science. Writing Environmental Sciences causes the reader to see ONLY the words Environmental Sciences with both words capitalized, which is correct since it's the name of an academic unit, but when the reader clicks on the link, it goes to environmental science, which is of course where it should go. I've put it back the way it was. Michael Hardy 04:40, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstood my edit, I didn't change the formatting of the environmental sciences link. Environmental sciences was listed two distinct times in the list and I merely removed the second instance. You are correct that the capitalized could have been better in the remaining reference, but that was not my change. It looks like you figured this out and kept my changes.

title: User talk:Bryanjjones


text:
Talk:Donations for victims of the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake/Protecting this page

I recommended that a poll be set up on this topic some time ago, and getting no response I decided to start it up myself. The basic issue is, should the page Donations for victims of the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake be protected? On the one hand, it guarantees that we won't have problems with scam artists taking advantage of this page. On the other hand, this page may still need additions, and blocking it will cause problems. What do you think?

(Please only list your names under support/oppose/neutral. Place long-winded comments under Comments. Thank you.)

Support
 * 1)  →Iñgōlemo←   talk  donate  04:41, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)

Oppose
 * 1) User:Bldarter
 * 2) Brianjd | Why restrict HTML? | 02:58, 2005 Mar 26 (UTC)

Neutral

Comments
 * The possibility of scams is huge and dangerous, and I find that we cannot allow that to happen. It is our moral responsibility if scam artists list false charities that divert money from the relief effort.  →Iñgōlemo←   talk  donate  04:41, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)

 * I somewhat agree but oppose blocking it yet. Two reasons. First: There have been scam pages posted and various vandaliztions but they have corrected quickly by a wide variety of people. Second: Just when I think I have found all the reputable charities involved in the relief effort, I find several more. User:Bldarter

 * Protecting this page will do nothing to stop scammers and is inconsistent with the nature of Wikipedia. Brianjd | Why restrict HTML? | 02:58, 2005 Mar 26 (UTC)


text:
Rube Bloom

Reuben Bloom (April 24, 1902 – March 30, 1976) was an American songwriter, pianist, arranger, band leader, recording artist, vocalist, and author.

Life and career
Bloom was born and died in New York City. He was Jewish.

During his career, he worked with many well-known performers, including Bix Beiderbecke, Joe Venuti, Ruth Etting, Stan Kenton, Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey. He collaborated with a wide number of lyricists, including Johnny Mercer, Ted Koehler, and Mitchell Parish.

During the 1920s he wrote many novelty piano solos, which are still well regarded today. He recorded for the Aeolian Company's Duo-Art reproducing piano system various titles including his "Spring Fever". His first hit came in 1927 with "Soliloquy"; his last was "Here's to My Lady" in 1952, which he wrote with Johnny Mercer. In 1928, he made a number of records with Joe Venuti's Blue Four for OKeh, including five songs he sang, as well as played piano.

Bloom formed and led a number of bands during his career, most notably Rube Bloom and His Bayou Boys, which recorded three records in 1930, that were considered some of the best made early in the Depression. The Bayou Boys was an all-star studio group consisting of Benny Goodman, Adrian Rollini, Tommy Dorsey and Mannie Klein. At other times, Bloom played with other bands, such as with Bix Beiderbecke and Frankie Trumbauer in the Sioux City Six and his frequent work with Joe Venuti's Blue Four.

Bloom's "I Can't Face the Music" was recorded by Ella Fitzgerald on her 1962 Verve release, Rhythm is My Business, in a swing/big band version with Bill Doggett.

Bloom published several books on piano method during his lifetime.

Rube Bloom is buried in Beth David Cemetery at Elmont, New York.

Folkways released an album of his and Arthur Schutt's recordings.

Songs

 * "Here's to My Lady" (1952) - lyrics by Johnny Mercer
 * "Day In, Day Out" - lyrics by Johnny Mercer
 * "Don't Worry 'Bout Me" - lyrics by Ted Koehler
 * "Fools Rush In (Where Angels Fear to Tread)" - lyrics by Johnny Mercer
 * "Give Me the Simple Life“ - with Harry Ruby
 * "Good-for-Nothin' Joe" - lyrics by Ted Koehler
 * "I Can't Face the Music" - lyrics by Ted Koehler
 * "Lost in a Dream" - lyrics by Edgar Leslie
 * "Maybe You'll Be There" - lyrics by Sammy Gallop
 * "Out in the Cold Again" - lyrics by Ted Koehler
 * "Take Me" - lyrics by Mack David
 * "The Man from South"
 * "Truckin'" (revised as "Ev'rybody's Twistin'" (Frank Sinatra, 1962)
 * "What Goes Up Must Come Down"
 * "Mysterious Mose"
 * "Duo-Art Piano Roll #713297 "Just a Bird's-Eye View" Arr and Played by Rube Bloom

title: Rube Bloom


text:
Talk:Marriage license

Introduced by Maximinus II?
From Lactantius: "Eunuchs and panders made search everywhere, and no sooner was any comely face discovered, than husbands and parents were obliged to withdraw. Matrons of quality and virgins were stripped of their robes, and all their limbs were inspected, lest any part should be unworthy of the bed of the emperor. Whenever a woman resisted, death by drowning was inflicted on her; as if, under the reign of this adulterer, chastity had been treason. Some men there were, who, beholding the violation of wives whom for virtue and fidelity they affectionately loved, could not endure their anguish of mind, and so killed themselves. While this monster ruled, it was singular deformity alone which could shield the honour of any female from his savage desires. At length he introduced a custom prohibiting marriage unless with the imperial permission; and he made this an instrument to serve the purposes of his lewdness."

I haven't come up with good search terms to track down secondary sources, and this may be the sort of inference from a primary source I shouldn't make here. Nonetheless it sounds to me as if the foundation of the institution in Roman law, the presumptive precedent for so many others, indicates the purpose of the marriage license as for droit de seigneur. Wnt (talk) 16:23, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Bad citations
The citations are of intolerably poor quality. The Coontz NYT reference is an opinion piece, not a fact-checked article which is subject to corrections of fact by the publisher. The reference to the eugenics journal does not appear to support the statement to which it is attached. The result is distinctly POV, making this appear to be a political propaganda piece. I move that either better references replace these, or the statements they support should be removed. Aminorex (talk) 12:51, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

 * Not only is the Coontz NYT reference not fact checked, but the claims based on it are manifestly false. The early marriage license was a defense against charges of bigamy, or demonstration of a special dispensation to marry. They were liberalizations of marriage, not restrictions upon it. "Marriage licenses from their inception have sought to establish certain prohibitions on the institution of marriage.".....! If you look at the timings of the various marriage licensing statutes, you'll see that ten states never passed them (licenses are not required today in Alabama or Texas, for instance, and were not required in Georgia until the 1990s), many states passed their marriage licensing laws long before they passed anti-miscegenation laws (much of New England), some repealed their anti-miscegenation laws before passing marriage licensing laws (Pennsylvania, for instance, passed its marriage licensing law 225 years after repealing its race law, while Florida passed its marriage licensing law the year after its race law was invalidated (1968 and 1967, respectively).) Few marriage licensing laws are passed during the period when anti-miscegenation laws are at their peak. The Coontz article contains no specific support for its claims, and there is considerable counter-evidence. As such, I am deleting the claims as inadequately sourced.--Jamesofengland (talk) 08:34, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Page title
The page title is spelled "licence" but the lead section spells it "license". Perhaps changing one of these would be in order? A412 (Talk * C) 20:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Currently the article title is "Marriage license". "Marriage licence" would be better. "C" is typically used for the noun, "S" for the verb, like "advice"/"advise". cagliost (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Inaccurate concerning legal marriages in the UK
Since the Marriage Act of 1836 Roman Catholic and Nonconformist Ministers can register marriages so it is plain wrong to say that people can only be married legally in Angican churches and otherwise they have to respect the rules of civil marriages. PhilomenaO'M (talk) 11:17, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

 * I would say that as currently worded the Article is substantially correct in the way it deals with Roman Catholic and Nonconformist marriages. Marriages in the Church of England and the (disestablished) Church in Wales take place through church procedures which are sanctioned by the State, but do not rely upon the presence or intervention of the civil registrar. Roman Catholic and Nonconformist marriages require the intervention of the local Registrar, who will have to attend in person, unless a person (who may be a member of the congregation) has been proposed by the church and appointed by the Registrar to act as "Authorised Person" for that Church.

 * However, this Article, so far as it relates to England and Wales, is inadequate and needs to be rewritten to draw out these points more clearly.Ntmr (talk) 16:02, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

 * Another assertion in the Article, so far as it relates to England and Wales, which seems to me questionable is the suggestion that the Marriage Certificate has replaced the entry in the Parish Register as the proof of the marriage. A birth, marriage or death certificate states that it is a "certified copy" of the "entry" that has been made in the register. If the relevant person made the entry in the register but failed to issue a certificate at the time, the marriage (or other life event) could still be proved by the issue of a certificate at a later time. I think that one change which was effected in 1837 was that Marriage Registers had to take a standard form, with the church retaining one copy, and returns being made to the registration authorities. Further, even before 1837 the officiating clergyman would issue a certificate to the couple. Again, the detail of this needs to be set out much more accurately.Ntmr (talk) 16:14, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:21, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Marriage license.jpg

Issued to the bride?
> Since 1837, the proof of a marriage has been by a marriage certificate, issued at the ceremony; before then, it was by the recording of the marriage in a parish register.

I seem to remember that the certificate is issued to the bride, not to the couple. It is her proof, should she be widowed and have children, that she was married. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c5:ee9c:7a00:b473:7f68:e99c:7305 (talk) 15:54, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Marriage license


text:
Talk:Pu'er tea

Article Revamp
Based on the "To Do" list below, I've revamped the article, incorporating previous information and including much, much more information about the tea and reorganizing the topics more comprehensively. I've added regions, factories, a dissection of a cake, and lots of characters and pinyin. My pinyin may not be 100% correctly formulated (I don't know Chinese tone-shifting rules), and I welcome any changes by those with this knowledge. --Bearsbearsbears 08:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Necessary Sections / To Do List
1. Can we create a disambiguation page that would redirect "Pu'er" to "Pu-erh"? Or, better yet, considering that "pu'er" is the pinyin form, and this tea is from the mainland, rename this post entirely to "Pu'er Tea"? I don't mean to approach political issues regarding Wades-Giles and Pinyin, only to reflect the heritage of the tea. 2. It would be helpful to include Chinese characters wherever possible for names of places and concepts in pu'er, most helpful to include both simplified & traditional.

3. There are a lot of issues to cover about this tea that need flushing out, as this is a complex tea:

a) Pedigree by factory, tea mountain/region, year, and season: any understanding or even introduction to pu'er has to approach the idea of the factory (wine analogy: bottling company), tea mountain/region (vineyard/grape region), year (vintage), and season (spring pu'er, autumn pu'er, summer pu'er, are usually valued in that order, with an occasional strange winter production)

b) Tea Mountains and Regions: what are some of the major regions (Bulang, Bangwei, Nannuo, Banzhang, Lincang, Simao, Snow Mountain, Menghai, Mengsa, Yiwu, etc.), and hopefully some information about them.

c) Pu'er shapes: What are they, their history, their benefits for aging.

d) The Marketplace/Trends: Taiwanese businessmen who are pu'er fans forming small-batch operations; lots of fakes of new and old teas in the marketplace, particularly for aged tea, and particularly online; pu'er in the news, maybe?

e) Pictures! I have quite a few, but could use some help posting them.

f) Anatomy of a cake: neifei, neipiao, etc. (something akin to what's available on Hou De Asian Art but with more information)

g) Aging: what are ideal conditions for aging, what changes does aging bring about, etc. There is very little information about this process in English, so I suspect that no more than a cursory review of this information could be constructed.

h) Recipes - deciphering a recipe code. Bearsbearsbears 22:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Great additions Bears! I can respond to a couple of your questions.

1) I've created the disambiguation page and a couple of other articles, one of which redirects here (Pu'er (tea)).

e) I can help you with pictures if you'd like to message me. Otherwise, there there are two guides which may be of use. The first guide helps you upload images. The second guide helps you place the uploaded images into the article.

Thanks for the help with the article, Scott5834 07:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Random stuff
The following line is removed. The facts are flawed. Over this time it acquires an earthy flavor due to the layer of mold that develops on the leaves (or tea brick if they are compressed). -- sltan

This article is completely lacking in sources and citations. Of particular concern for me is the line "Pu-erh tea has been subject to a number of health studies. A number of medical studies have substantiated claims that the tea helps reduce cholesterol levels and saturated fats in humans, and that it might also assist in weight loss." Is there any evidence for this? Or is it something that the manufacturers and marketeers would like to have us believe?

Pur-Erh should be classified under green tea. --sltan

I have found many references to the presence of mold in at least some varieties of Pu-Erh tea, so I have restored language in the article that mentions it (along with the fermentation and earthy flavor that are characteristic of this tea). Dr.frog 23:28, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Please post the references, it would be interesting. --Iateasquirrel 22:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, it doesn't matter, since the author that wrote "Judging quality" has clear the dust. Actually, the "special quality Pur-Er with mold" are merely myth created by unscrupulous traders to sell the inferior products.--Sltan 18:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks ;) But I'm not sure most of the "dust" has cleared. First, aging and ripening of most pu-erhs do require the presence of some mold species (A. niger). Second, a slightly moldy tea does make the tea taste smoother, as such some collectors (though less so now) will promote their growth by storing their tea in damp environments. Sjschen 02:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

 * It is not encourage to consume molded tea. Whether from the view of tea maker or food scientist, it is a dangerous and discourage practice. It is known that dangerous mold will growth whenever the condition is permitted. Due to mineral and nutrient contain in tea leaves, there is no way for one to make sure only Aspergillus niger growth on the tea, but also other harmful mold(which can cause cancer or other illness). --Sltan 14:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Mold can generate a host of crazy compounds being the chemical factories that they are, and no doubt some are bad for you. Still our bodies have evolved certain things to defend against stuff like that, and assuming we don't drink too much of it, it's really not that "bad". As for whether faster or slower fermentation produce less or more of the bad stuff I don't know. Besides, the same process also occurs whether in aged raw dry-stored teas or ripened teas, with all kinds of molds working on the teas. They have the same things in French cheeses if you know what I mean. Sjschen 15:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Rinsing (part of the drinking ceremony) will remove surface contaminants. No mention is made of this in the article. For a few seconds the tea is washed with boiling water and the result discarded. The second and subsequent infusions are then consumed. The rinse water is unpleasant tasting (I tried it, being skeptical). 24.7.14.141 (talk) 15:24, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

 * The Ninth infusion of 102 year olf Pu-erh tea seems to taste a bit like a dancer previously dancing on the tip of the tongue(in the infusion#8) has become a wallflower of sorts on the sides of the tongue.-By: Cafe Soihtu,Helsinki 21:50, 8 September 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.197.238.82 (talk)

Black teas...
The problem with saying that puer cannot be processed from black tea is a confusion of terms. There are three main classifications of tea: Red, Black and Green. All teas begin as green teas, and can be adulterated to become black or red.

Red tea is what we call "Black Tea" in the west. It is tea that is partially fermented. True Black teas are processed in more intense ways, and Oolong is one of the black teas.

Pu'er tea can fall into two categories: Fermented Green Tea, (生茶）Sheng Cha and Black (processed,not red) tea, （熟饼）Shu Bing - this type of pu'er is less valuable as it has been adulterated to accelerate the natural aging process.

There is a third kind of Pu'er, known as 青毛 Qingmao or green hairs. These are the fresh leaves of what will eventually become real pu'er after a few years.

There are a few things that need addressing in this article: Pu'er is in no way related to Oolong tea The chemical aging process is more complex than mere mold or fermentation, and not fully understood. The initial processing is to wash and trample the leaves, then allow them to dry in indirect sunlight. The old caravans would soak the tea again in cold water to fit their mule packs better, and then the tea would pass through several altitudes and climate zones on the way to Canton (Guangdong). True Pu'er is never heated, but stored in underground cellars to age naturally.

I'll try and add something to the article when I can get something more solid. Regards, Jeff Crosby

Fermented vs. cultured.
Is the process that changes Green Tea to Pu-Erh best described as fermentation? My understanding of the process is that the tea is cultured -- more like milk into yogurt, than grapes into wine. Isn't "fermentation" the conversion of sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide? Perhaps it is the established term and has a wider meaning than this and I am mistaken, but I imagine most people would have this idea of fermentation as well. Perhaps a line clarifying the difference in meaning would be helpful.4.158.141.210 23:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

 * This is tricky, the dictionary using Dictionary program on GNOME gives that fermentation is simply in the wider sense organic transformation of things to new things. I think in terms of Pu-erh fermentation is correct and it is often used, also some people say oxidation as the processes apparently occur only when Pu-erh is exposed to air. Why I think using fermentation is better; because oxidation can be used in terms of Oolong and Black/Red tea and its a somewhat different process. --Iateasquirrel 02:26, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

 * IMHO, the word "tea fermentation" is direct translate from the Chinese language. The word is used in the Chinese tea processing for thousand of year because the people have no idea about enzyme break down due to oxidization process, thus view the process similar to fermentation. While the word "oxidization" appear to be modern scientific discovery. Books produce by expert in China has pointed it out as oxidization process.--Sltan 14:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Two suggestions...Three Suggestions Now
Great article. Two suggestions: 1) discuss the Cantonese style tea that is half pu'erh and half chrysanthemum flowers (called "leihua"?); and 2) make a page for the Pu'erh County that the tea is from. Badagnani 08:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The combination of puerh and chrysanthemum is actually called "Jupu" 菊普(chrysanthemum-puerh), or "Gok-po" in Cantonese (same words). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarshalN (talk • contribs) 16:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

New Suggestion: Can someone add a section or more clearly point out where information is regarding how to store this tea?

Cantoneese
Can the characters for the Cantonese "bolei"/"bolay"/"bonay" be added? Badagnani 10:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know Cantonese, but I think those are mainly different pronunciation for the same 2 chinese characters. Sjschen 17:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Can we add "bonay"? I don't have any idea how they derive that pronunciation but it's used on the Foojoy package and elsewhere, I believe. Badagnani 05:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure, why not? The more the merrier! Sjschen 05:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Cantonese doesn't have its own characters, at least not strictly speaking it doesn't. The characters for puerh are exactly the same, they're just pronunced differently. However, proper Cantonese pronunciation for puerh is actually "po-lei". The Foojoy romanization is off. I'm not sure if that could actually be a Minnan dialect pronunciation.MarshalN 16:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see they don't block you when in HK :) I'm not sure where "bolay" comes from but it could be cantonese done using mandarin pinyin. It's not Minnan since I remember it as being pronouned "po-ee" or something. Sjschen 16:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don’t know Cantonese romanization, but using English spelling I would say it’s “bow lay” (bow as in bow tie). As for “nay” instead of “lay”, I suspect that is because a lot of Cantonese speakers don’t distinguish between “n” and “l”, eg I prononuce “you” as “lay”, but others pronounce it “nay”. Obviously this is all without indicating the tones.  To get a bit technical, the “b” in Cantonese “bow lay” is unvoiced and unaspirated, the same as in “Beijing”, some romanizations use "p", it's also "p" in IPA. LDHan 06:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this invaluable help. Two comments:  1. Isn't it "l" and "r" (not "l" and "n") that are used interchangeably in Asian languages?  I've never heard that "l" and "n" were interchanged in Cantonese.  That's very interesting.  2. The "B" in "Beijing," I think, is definitely voiced (that's why it's a "b" and not a "p"), but a bit explosive like the letter "Paw pla" ("Bpaw bpla") in Thai.  Badagnani 14:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Merging "l" and "n" is common in a lot of southern Chinese dialects, not just just Cantonese, see Standard Cantonese and Cantonese (linguistics). The "B" in "Beijing" as pronounced in Chinese is unvoiced and unaspirated, similar to the first sound in "Paris" pronounced in French, in fact most varieties of Chinese, including putonghua, do not have voiced intitial stops/plosives, the exceptions being Wu and Xiang. "B" and "p" in pinyin are used according to its own system of romanization and do not necessarily follow the spelling conventions of English or any other language.

 * Actually, I might be wrong about the Cantonese pronounciation of "bolay", I’m sure I’ve heard the first sound as unvoiced and unaspirated, but when I look up the first character it’s given as pou, ie unvoiced but aspirated. Then I realised it’s the same character as pu as in putonghua, which IS unvoiced and aspirated in Cantonese. LDHan 18:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I am a native Cantonese speaker, at least of the Hong Kong variety, and usually puerh is pronunced as "po-lay" with an aspirated initial.

It is true that sometimes P and B sounds in Cantonese are mixed, and the same can be said, to a certain degree, of L and N sounds, but more often than not one is the correct one and the other one is accepted as a substitute. They are not strictly interchangable. If you say "bo-nay" and want to talk about the tea puerh... people will look at you funny and think you have a weird accent, or simply unable to aspirate consonants. Do a survey in local dim sum restaurants and see how often you hear "po-lay" instead of "bo-lay" or "bo-nay" or "po-nay", and you'll know what I mean.MarshalN 10:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Can we get an IPA pronunciation or a generic English romanization estimate for those of us that don't know pinyin or Wade-Giles? Or a sounds-like/as-in? TIA. -kslays 19:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Six famous tea mountains
I've seen a couple of different versions of mountains listed as being the "six mountains". Which are you ones that we should note down? There is some interesting information about it here, but is there a more primary source for the information? Sjschen 19:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that the second list of Six Famous Tea Mountains is erroneous and needs to be investigated. I'll check my sources and see what I can find. Xiefeilaga 05:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

On passing GA
Article is comprehensive, well referenced, and well organized. All images are relevant and well licensed. Good job! --Jayron 32  05:26, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Time for more nit-picking: The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Sjschen 02:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.
 * Per WP:MOS, avoid using words/phrases that indicate time periods relative to the current day. For example, recently might be terms that should be replaced with specific dates/times.
 * Per What is a featured article?, Images should have concise captions.
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -  between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 6ft, use 6 ft, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 6&nbsp;ft.
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.
 * Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Summary style.
 * This article may need to undergo summary style, where a series of appropriate subpages are used. For example, if the article is United States, than an appropriate subpage would be History of the United States, such that a summary of the subpage exists on the mother article, while the subpage goes into more detail.
 * There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
 * arguably
 * might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).
 * Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: flavor (A) (British: flavour), flavour (B) (American: flavor), categorise (B) (American: categorize), ization (A) (British: isation), catalyze (A) (British: catalyse),  aging (A) (British:  ageing), any more (B) (American: anymore),  grey (B) (American:  gray), curb (A) (British: kerb), mold (A) (British: mould), mould (B) (American: mold).
 * Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
 * While additive terms like “also”, “in addition”, “additionally”, “moreover”, and “furthermore” may sometimes be useful, overusing them when they aren't necessary can instead detract from the brilliancy of the article. This article has 28 additive terms, a bit too much.
 * Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “ All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
 * As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space inbetween. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]
 * Please provide citations for all of the s.
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.

Withering of leaves before maocha
I do not have a copy of Mr. Chan's new book, so I don't know what he says. However, it is my understanding that withering the freshly plucked leaves before the "kill-green" in the wok is NOT proper puerh processing and is NOT how they used to make things. It is one of the newer styles of making puerh that is quite controversial. Can someone tell me what exactly he said (as I don't have access to this very new book) and whether or not he says this SHOULD be how puerh is done? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarshalN (talk • contribs) 16:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

I do not have the book as well, however what I wrote were taken from reading the samples pages at Houde and at Mr. Chan's picture site. From pane 3-5 here, we see "dehydration" by withering prior to "kill-green" in the wok in pane 6 and 7. It is possible that he has given additional information in the book that will state otherwise, but if that is the case, then the information given in the panes would be rather misleading. I've also read in a few sites that some sun withering is done prior to kill-green, which is why I am lead to believe that what I have read in the book pages is not entirely wrong. Do you have the sources that state that fresh tea leaves undergo kill-green directly without initial wilting? Sjschen 02:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Aside from other experienced tea friends -- people on Sanzui all seem to think that withering is not a good idea, as it basically makes the tea into an oolong before it gets pressed. Withering, aside from losing water content, will also mean that the tea is actually going through oxidation. Oolongs are made by letting the tea wither and oxidize over a number of hours, and then frying it, rolling, and finally drying the tea. Puerh, however, is not oolong. So that's why I'm questioning what's going on there.... perhaps the best is to caveat the withering bit with something like "this is still a controversial process that is not widely accepted as standard practice for processing puerh maocha".MarshalN 12:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, withering without first denaturing the enzymes through kill-green (KG) causes oxidation of the leaves. But then again I've never really considered pu-erh maocha as a "pure" green tea for several reasons. First is as there is the "pile and wither" process described above that I have see being bantered around. Second, aside from panned KG, there is also sunned KG (...用日光晒干的茶，主要作为沱茶、紧茶、饼茶...) which is traditionally used (...传统普洱茶工序：杀青(生晒、锅炒)...) to make pressed pu-erh. The low temp and slow pace of this kill green method probably allows for a little but still significant amount of oxidation. Third, panned KG at lower temps are considered better, but with this process of KG, not all of the enzymes are eliminated (...度较低，叶温多在80℃以下，多酚氧化酶钝化较少...), thus "well-performed" panned KG in pu-erh only retards oxidation in the leaf to the point where the leaves can remain relatively green until it's pan dried or sun dried. This is significant, since enzymatic oxidation may be occuring even with cakes that have been pressed and completed. Finally, there is the matter of smell. To me, pu-erhs of any kind never really smells either like "vegetal" green tea or "sweet" oolong. I also remember reading somewhere that grassy or vegetal scents are not a sign of good pu-erh processing. Furthermore, there is always a hint of light floral and "buttery" nuances in the scent of my raw pu-erhs that reminds me of a certain pouchong I've had, telling me that pu-erh is not all "green". If it's does not smell green, and is not considered good to smell green, or does not look green, can this tea really be green? This being said, maybe the raw pu-erhs I have are all not too good. Maybe there is a study out there on the oxygenase activity in the processing steps of raw pu-erh, which can clear some of this up. Overall this has turned out to be more complicated then ever, and yes I agree with editing the withering part to allow for a caveat. Sjschen 22:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

But I think the key is that there is a crucial difference between the oxidation that occurs before ANY KG happens (i.e. in wilting) vs oxidation that takes place AFTER some KG has occurred (i.e. sun drying). Whereas the latter is the accepted as part of puerh production, the first variety happens much quicker (producing redness in leaves, among other things) and is said to destroy important molecules that may hinder future aging potential.MarshalN 10:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

In this case I may have slightly misunderstood the terminology of the processes. Assuming sun drying for for all processes and no prior processing of the fresh leaves, my understanding is that that sunned KG involves ONLY sunning the leaves (sun->knead->sun), that panned KG involves only pan heating the leaves (pan->knead->sun), and that baked KG involves only baking the leaves (bake->knead->sun). Do you mean that all forms of KG will always be in the form of panning, or artificially heating the unprocessed leaves (pan->knead->*something*) ? Before this discussion, my understanding of maocha processing from fresh leaves is sunWilt->panKG->knead->sunDry which changed to coolWilt->panKG->knead->sunDry with Mr. Chan's book pages, but now I have to say I'm sure anymore considering these different and conflicting views. It is interesting to note that in ''Puerh teapot mag. No15.'' the article describing the traditional method states that some red colour from oxidation is a feature of the traditonal method, and that it involves "cool wilting" the leaves (steps 2-3). Do you think this information is erroneous? The mag is the same publisher and images as in Mr. Chan's book. Sjschen 17:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe the whole wilting business is actually a Taiwanese way of making tea in general. From what I understand, the proper way to make puerh in the traditional style is pan-cooking, kneading, and then sun drying. It should all be done quickly, rather than through a long period of time. There will always be some redness involved in this process, since there will be redness from the time the leaves were picked to the pan, if nothing else. Wilting, however, creates artificial fermentation that, from what I understand, is not desirable. Wilting, however, is an integral portion of Taiwanese tea making, and it does make the tea less bitter, more aromatic, and some say age faster. The price for this, claims skeptics, is that it doesn't age nearly as well. Who to believe? I think nobody, Taiwanese, HKers, mainlanders included, know what it takes for a good puerh to become a good puerh. We're all still learning. MarshalN 04:32, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Cantonese spelling
There are today official variants of the Pinyin spelling system for regional languages in China.

Official Cantonese language Pinyin should be used in:

"In the Cantonese language, it is known as po-lay (or bo-lay) tea."

If there is a previously established English rendering (such as "po-lay") this should also be indicated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.244.110 (talk) 08:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Historical "Pu-er Tea Company" with trade route to India
This article:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2583137,00.html

mentions:

"... retracing an ancient trans-Himalayan tea route ... the 1,400-mile Tea Horse Caravan Road from Deqin in Yunnan province, southwest China, to the Tibetan capital, Lhasa ... on ... to Nepal ... a group of travellers following the ancient Pu’er Tea Company trade route, where tea has been traded for horses for more than 1,000 years ..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.244.110 (talk) 08:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Pu erh??
Bearsbearsbears once said: "Can we create a disambiguation page that would redirect "Pu'er" to "Pu-erh"? Or, better yet, considering that "pu'er" is the pinyin form, and this tea is from the mainland, rename this post entirely to "Pu'er Tea"?

So somebody made the article "pu erh", as requested. Bearsbearsbears in one go wants to redirect "pu er" to "pu erh", and then says "better yet", basically lets rename the whole thing "pu er". Wtf??

I believe all references that state "pu erh" need to be changed to "pu er" (as was bearsbearsbears' original request... although perhaps bears was feeling a little lightheaded when writing that).

Also, we have canto romanization in the article, so I've added pinyin. Absolutely crazy not to have it, seeing that it IS from Yunnan.

What is with "pu erh"? What's with the h? And yes, I'm aware of the risk of starting another huge war over this pinyin vs Wade Giles issue. Now just in case Wade Giles lovers like Badagnani disagree, from the word go I'll say, "I don't care" what you think. :) It's from Yunnan. It's called "pu3 er3" and that's the way it is. Not "pu erh". See the times article quoted above :)

Goodnight. Djwatson 22:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Move request
From WP:RM:
 * Pu-erh tea → Pu-erh — a type of Chinese tea, "Pu-erh" redirects there and is not used in any other articles. Though I didn't see it at first or thought of it, a google search of "Pu-erh" turns up the Chinese tea MUCH more than the Dragon Ball  character Pu-erh. I'm also using Oolong tea which redirects to Oolong as an example to this, as "tea" is uneeded in the page title. — ~ I'm anonymous 04:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This survey, on my part, is over. From the looks of it, Oolong will be changed to Oolong tea for consistency with the complete tea names.  ~ I'm anonymous
 * It may well be called "Pu-erh" in the tea trade, but most people are likely to call it "Pu-erh tea" to show that it is a sort of tea and not a man or a place name etc. Anthony Appleyard 06:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

A cursory web search also seems to indicate that "Pu-erh tea" or "Pu-erh teas" is more common than "Pu-erh" alone. --Stemonitis 11:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Oppose as pu-erh tea is usually referred to as such (as is Oolong BTW) and is not a pleonasm in English or Chinese (cf. most of the teas listed at Category:Chinese tea). —  AjaxSmack     02:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - again, why is it that "Oolong" is placed as the page title of "Oolong tea", and what makes this case so different? This is a matter I don't understand. What does a cursory web have to do with any of this?  ~ I'm anonymous
 * Nothing. I'll propose a move of Oolong so it matches the scores of other tea varieties, OK?   —   AjaxSmack     05:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps
This article has been reviewed as part of WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed. I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are being addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, OhanaUnitedTalk page 15:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Lack of (or very little) references in some sections of the article, such as the investment, storage, and other sections
 * As there's no significant improvement to sourcing information. I'm now delisting this article. OhanaUnitedTalk page 20:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Identifying Counterfeits
Just so you all know, if I can find sufficient sources, I'd like to add a section on counterfeit detection, as it could help the reader, I think. Thanks. --Isaiah 21:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Cleaning up References
I have been cleaning up references on a number of tea-related articles. I have found fairly heavy WP:CITESPAM on articles, mostly including blogs, self-published sites, and company sites. It's hard to say where the sloppy sourcing ends and citation spam begins, but I think that because tea is a profit-making industry, and tea company sites are selling something, and because they are self-published, we need to be extra-cautious of referencing company websites--only doing so when there is strong reason to trust the source. This fits with the guidelines on WP:RS.

I kept the sources to http://www.pu-erh.net/, because that site identifies the author by name, is old / well-established, and shows evidence of thorough research. But even that is somewhat questionable and I'd be open to discussion of removing that as a source if others are critical of it. But besides that one, I think the other self-published sites, including company sites need to go. If anyone wants to add them back, please give justification here before doing so. In general, some sort of compelling reason is necessary. I.e, per WP:SPS:

 * Self-published material may in some circumstances be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

Cazort (talk) 16:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the hard work! -- Sjschen (talk) 15:22, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

It is good that fellow editors are agreed on the issue of avoiding the use of commercial sites as references. I think another area worth looking at is the amount of traditionally published literature by reputable sources. We have been relying too much on the internet sometimes. Nevertheless, the current content of this article is still so much affected by marketing publicity. I shall shortly proceed to clean it up to reveal the traditional concept of pu'er that was previously agreed by academics and the trade until the recent two decades, when marketeers began to "re-construct" a "history" and a "tea character" to raise margin that fattens only the middle merchants. Please let me know your opinions and if there are any issues. Kwanchungleung (talk) 09:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Terminology

 * Tea Studies Index
 * addresses Puer (green and dark)
 * raw/green Puer青普: sun fixation曬青 > rolling揉捻 > sun drying曬乾
 * ripe/dark Puer熟普: sun fixation曬青 > rolling揉捻 > piling 渥堆 > sun drying曬乾

Puerh should have sun fixation and sun drying.

Added processes: green Puerh and dark Puerh can be compress into cakes and aged.

fixation曬青 is shaqing

rolling揉捻 is kneading

dark tea黑茶 is what some call "red tea", but this can cause confusion for rooibos and "black tea紅茶"

Puer/h or Pu'/-er is a place and should be capital (P)u/'/-/er/h

icetea8 (talk) 03:27, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Too much marketing content from price speculation influence
Too much of the content of this article is influenced by marketing intent for price speculation of the tea and a lot lack references of reputable sources other than the marketers' or price auction news. Formal academic contents and independent references are missing here, and yet Wikipedia has not been marking this. If there is no argument in realigning at least the introductory, origin and nature of the tea variety into a more encyclopedic accuracy, I shall go ahead and re-write this article, bit by bit, whenever I have the time, starting from tomorrow.

Kwanchungleung (talk) 10:03, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposal: Consensus and Dispute

 * first issue is what is the agreed letter spelling of the term with or without the "h" puer/h.
 * The name of the article is with the "H", by having the content of the article without the "H" will cause confusion.

We need to follow a common rule
 * Most established Chinese words used in common English don't use any punctuation in their spelling.
 * Punctuation capitals, and spaces can be used for pronunciation help of syllables.
 * If punctuation is used in common spelling, then we need to insert in all Chinese derived terms or have rules for when and why used.
 * Whatever we decide we should follow the rules for what we decide.

We Need Rules and Conventions icetea8 (talk) 04:47, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * For studying Chinese punctuation is used for tones but for English we can omit them.
 * Punctuation can be used for pronunciation help. (added feb04,2010)
 * Omit the punctuation, inside capital, and space for Pu-erh, Pu'er, Pu er(h), and PuEr(h), just write Puerh and Puer.

I think the use of the punctuation is not for study of pinyin or any other thing but rather to help the reader to pronounce the words in question a little closer to the original intended phonetic. I have problem, however, in seeing the main entry title as Pu-erh, as Pu'er is the mainstream romanization of the character. I know the word with the "h" has been in use for certain merchants for a while, but so are other names as Po Lay or Bo Lei. It is to Wiki's standard that the proper use of word should be the main entry and the others properly addressed in the content. I think I will amend the situation accordingly.

Kwanchungleung (talk) 04:00, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

 * i have rearranaged the proposal section.

 * this spelling issue needs to be solved or it will destructive to the goals of the puer(h) article and also infuence future articles. below is the "puer(h) tea types template" and it is using the "H".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Tea/Types/Puerh icetea8 (talk) 12:47, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

 * to "Kwanchungleung" your edits have changed some of the "h"s not all, we need to be consistant within the article, either all "puerh" or "puer".icetea8 (talk) 15:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Hello "icetea8", now I have standardized the "pu'er" spelling for most, do you have any idea how to amend the title and the template? Kwanchungleung (talk) 15:19, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

 * for changing/moving please read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Page_move http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves   icetea8 (talk) 16:15, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

máochá
this should be spelled in common English using raw tea or maocha, "á" puncuation is for Chinese. icetea8 (talk) 15:12, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Hello Icetea8, I agree it should be consistent spelling "pu'er" without the "h". I shall finish my job with it. I actually want to change the title to one without an h too, but that is taken by an article without content and I have no idea how to correct the situation. Any help you can offer would be nice.

I also agree with you that maocha or better yet mao cha be spelled without the accents. However, I think "raw tea" is a very misleading English term for that expression. Maybe you have any good idea?

Kwanchungleung (talk) 14:42, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

 * another term for raw tea can be taken from the fact, after "Primary Tea Processes 茶葉初制" we have primary processed tea. about the spelling of Pue(')r, if you look at this tea's wrapper (do a search on google) it will usually be written without the ('). it is vital that we editors to use simple English and consistency for the good of this article, i dont want a spelling war over this tea, all that will happen is more confusion. what is the purpose of putting the ( ' )in the term ? icetea8 (talk) 15:20, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

 * i have removed "copyedit tag", discussion of spelling convention should be brought out here not in the article, icetea8 (talk) 15:50, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

as this part of the talk page seems to be both (a) relatively current and (b) a discussion between language experts, I place my remark here. Forgive the lack of adepter formatting and by "forgive" I mean please feel free to edit or reorganize me. Ahem. Is there some sort of w'pedia convention preventing adding a phonetic parenthetical of pu'er at the top of the entry? I came here as one having asked naively at a dinner, "what is this tea exactly?". Some expert pronunciation advice would help me pontificate my new tea-knowledge with confidence henceforth. konastephen (talk) 5:34, 1 Sept 2011 (UTC)
 * Added in the first sentence, Pu'er, Pu-erh, Puer, (pronounced: poo-urr or poo-air). icetea8 (talk) 13:17, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Cooked (shou) / Raw (Sheng)
I've changed the information on shou and sheng to correct a factual error in the originally cited article. I will do further research to find citations and further clarify the point. My understanding is that cooked pu-erh is stored in humid rooms to accelerate post-fermentation ripening. They become qualitatively different teas based on whether they are "cooked" or not. JonSidener (talk) 06:03, 25 May 2012 (UTC)JonSidener

 * The process actually involves spraying the tea with water, not just storing in humid rooms. The process is in fact highly controlled composting. I do have an issue with changing the term to "cooked", which I don't see as an accurate translation of the the term "shou". -- Sjschen (talk) 16:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

congratulations to editors and request for commercial value section
Great article. On a site with so many non-notable articles it is a pleasure to find an in depth treatment of an important topic. The only thing lacking as far as I can see is information on the commercial value of this tea. 66.249.80.86 (talk) 07:29, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

What is Hei Cha (黑茶)   Supposed to say in English,  "Black Tea" or "Dark Tea" ?
What is  Hei Cha (黑茶)   Supposed to say in English,  "Black Tea" or "Dark Tea" ?

I talked with some specialists, it should be this:
 * Hong Cha(红茶)： "Black tea"
 * Hei Cha(黑茶)：  "Dark tea"  or “Fermented tea"

Welcome to talk with me User_talk:LisaAmy

Cantonese
Great and reliable source: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3344 --Espoo (talk) 01:08, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

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Intro needs revising; reads as if all pu er undergoes wo dui
The intro has some points which would be correct, if this article were solely about shou pu er. The consideration of sheng as hei cha is contentious, but not the biggest offender. The intro reads as if all pu er undergoes the wo dui process, and implies that all fermentation in the context of pu er is solely related to wo dui as well (this is contradicted later in the article, where it explains the difference in how sheng ferments over time)

Personally I think it'd just be better for them to have two separate pages, but if they are destined to be under one, please consider rewriting the intro. It's not nearly misinformative as most pu er writings out there, but it's a pretty misleading summary.

My suggestion would be to introduce pu er, mention both production styles, give a minor overview of each, don't lay too hard into the contentious provenance of shou (citation sorely needed on the proposition that the sole reason it was invented was to mimic aged sheng), and leave the description of wo dui for latter portions of the article. The little overview of fermentation can be changed to indicate that both undergo fermentation, but through significantly different methods. 2601:183:200:3D30:8D1E:2446:405C:8076 (talk) 12:41, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA22 - Sect 200 - Thu
— Assignment last updated by Rheaxx666 (talk) 18:26, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pu'er tea


text: User talk:219.93.185.42

title: User talk:219.93.185.42


text:
User:Starwed

I'm a graduate student in physics at the University of Kentucky. I have a background in music and math.

Other interests include anime, XUL, and SF/Fantasy.

Work in progress

 * User:Starwed/AbenobashiDraft

title: User:Starwed


text:
User talk:70.24.138.3

Marko the racist
Referring to Perez's up-and-down season, Marko said: "We know that he has problems in qualifying, he has fluctuations in form, he is South American and he is just not as completely focused in his head as Max [Verstappen] is or as Sebastian [Vettel]." 70.24.138.3 (talk) 18:35, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

title: User talk:70.24.138.3


text:
Lawrence Sanders

Lawrence Sanders (March 15, 1920 – February 7, 1998) was an American novelist and short story writer.

Life
Lawrence Sanders was born in Brooklyn in New York City. After public school he attended Wabash College, where he obtained a Bachelor of Arts degree. He then returned to New York and worked at Macy's Department Store. In 1943 he joined the United States Marine Corps and was discharged in 1946. Sanders was a former magazine editorial writer and later turned to full-time fiction writing. He wrote his first novel, The Anderson Tapes, in 1970 at the age of 50 and in 1971 received the Edgar Award from the Mystery Writers of America for best first novel. It deals with a plot by a group of criminals to rob a luxury apartment building. His Archy McNally series was continued by author Vincent Lardo.

Lawrence Sanders bibliography
Edward X. Delaney series:
 * The Anderson Tapes (1970)
 * The First Deadly Sin (1973)
 * The Second Deadly Sin (1977)
 * The Third Deadly Sin (1981)
 * The Fourth Deadly Sin (1985)

Peter Tangent series:
 * The Tangent Objective (1976)
 * The Tangent Factor (1976)

The Commandment series:
 * The Sixth Commandment (1978)
 * The Tenth Commandment (1980)
 * The Eighth Commandment (1986)
 * The Seventh Commandment (1991)

Timothy Cone series:
 * The Timothy Files (1987) [collection]
 * Timothy's Game (1988) [collection]

Archy McNally series:
 * McNally's Secret (1991)
 * McNally's Luck (1992)
 * McNally's Risk (1993)
 * McNally's Caper (1994)
 * McNally's Trial (1995)
 * McNally's Puzzle (1996)
 * McNally's Gamble (1997)

Written with or by Vincent Lardo:
 * McNally's Dilemma (1999)
 * McNally's Folly (2000)
 * McNally's Chance (2001)
 * McNally's Alibi (2002)
 * ''McNally's Dare (2003)
 * McNally's Bluff (2004)
 * McNally's Files (2006) - 3 for 1 collection (Secret, Luck, Risk)

Miscellaneous titles
 * The Pleasures of Helen (1971)
 * Love Songs (1972)
 * The Tomorrow File (1975)
 * The Marlow Chronicles (1977)
 * Caper (1980) [under pseudonym Lesley Andress]
 * Dark Summer (1980) [under pseudonym Mark Upton]
 * The Case of Lucy Bending (1982)
 * The Seduction of Peter S (1983)
 * The Passion of Molly T (1984)
 * The Loves of Harry Dancer (1985)
 * Tales of the Wolf (1986) [collection of 13 stories published in Swank, 1968-9]
 *  The Dream Lover (1986)
 * Capital Crimes (1989)
 * Stolen Blessings (1990)
 * Sullivan's Sting (1990)
 * Private Pleasures (1993)
 * Guilty Pleasures (1998)

title: Lawrence Sanders


text:
Kansas City Southern de México

Kansas City Southern de México, S.A. de C.V. is a Mexican railroad and operating subsidiary of Canadian Pacific Kansas City Limited (CPKC). The company was founded in 1996 as Transportación Ferroviaria Mexicana, a joint venture between KCS and Transportación Maritima Mexicana after the companies won a concession from the Mexican government to operate the 3315 mi Northeast Railroad connecting Monterrey and Mexico City with a US port of entry at Laredo, Texas and seaports at Lázaro Cárdenas and Veracruz. In 2005, KCS bought out its partner's shares in the railroad, giving it full control.

Canadian Pacific Railway purchased KCSM in December 2021 for US$31 billion. On April 14, 2023, KCS and KCSM became subsidiaries of CPR, and began conducting business under the name of their new parent, CPKC.

History
Kansas City Southern de México was originally formed in 1996 when Kansas City Southern Industries and Transportación Maritima Mexicana (TMM) purchased a government concession to operate on a rail system in Mexico. It was the Mexican President, Ernesto Zedillo, who proposed the privatization of the Mexican railways because the Mexican railway system had fallen into a state of disrepair and needed drastic work to become profitable. Since the late 1930s, Mexican trains and tracks were the property of the government as Ferrocarriles Nacionales de México (Mexican National Railways). When the decision to privatize the railroad was made, only 15% of freight was moved by rail in Mexico (versus 42% in the US ).

The most sought-after portion of the concessions, called the Northeast Railroad, was bid on by many major companies, including the United States' largest railroad company, Union Pacific Railroad. This concession included about 3315 mi of track with connections to many key cities, including Monterrey, Mexico City, and Laredo, Texas. This track carried 46% of all rail traffic in Mexico and 60% of all freight coming from the United States. KCSM and TMM bid and won the concession for US$1.4 billion for the rights to operate the concession, paying 49% and 51% respectively.

In 2005, Kansas City Southern Industries purchased Transportación Maritima Mexicana's share in TFM, giving them full ownership of the company, and the TFM was officially renamed Kansas City Southern de México.

11 of 14 of Mexico's auto assembly plants, plus two more under construction, are located on the railroad. Automobile traffic (autos and parts) accounted for 9% of the 2012 total carloads.

Key connections

 * Guadalajara
 * Laredo, Texas – United States port of entry
 * Lázaro Cárdenas – Pacific Ocean port
 * México City – served by Ferrovalle, a terminal railroad co-owned by KCSM
 * Monterrey
 * Queretaro
 * Saltillo
 * San Luis Potosí
 * Tampico
 * Veracruz – Atlantic Ocean port

title: Kansas City Southern de México


text:
George Nicholas Sanders

George Nicholas Sanders (February 1812 – August 13, 1873) was a former official of the United States and supporter of the Confederate States of America. Sanders was believed by some to have a level of involvement in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

Early life and career
Sanders was born in Lexington, Kentucky in February 1812. His father was Lewis Sanders, and his mother was Ann Nicholas.

During his early career he was involved in breeding cattle and race horses. Sanders later moved to New York, and married Anna Reid in 1836. His father-in-law was Samuel Chester Reid. He was involved in the Young America Movement and was editor of the "Democratic Review."

Revolutionary ideas and causes
Sanders was appointed as Consul in London in 1853. Although he moved to London, he was never confirmed by the United States Senate, and recalled the following year. He publicly advocated for the assassination of heads of state, including French Emperor Napoleon III, and had previously been involved in schemes supporting revolutionaries on the European continent.

Sanders interacted with European revolutionaries such as Lajos Kossuth and Giuseppe Mazzini.

Civil War
During the Civil War, he was involved in activities in Europe and Montreal to support the Confederacy. Sanders was involved in organization of the 1864 Niagara Falls peace conference, and negotiated with the United Kingdom to build ships for the Confederate States Navy.

Following Abraham Lincoln's 1865 assassination by John Wilkes Booth, the Judge Advocate General of the United States Army, Joseph Holt, became convinced that the plot was organized by leadership of the Confederate States of America. Sanders was among these leaders who Holt accused of involvement, and a reward of $25,000 was created for his arrest. It was dropped in November, after Sanders had not yet been apprehended.

Later life
After the assassination of Lincoln, attempts were made to take Sanders into custody, but he fled to Canada and Europe. In 1870, he was in Paris, where he attempted to aid the city's defenders during the Prussian siege: "Mr. George Sanders, while serving as United States Consul in London, and one of the leaders of the ex-Confederacy, is here; he is preparing plans for a system of rifle pits and zigzags outside the fortifications, at the request of General Trochu. Mr. Sanders, who took an active part in the defense of Richmond, declared that Paris is impregnable, if it be only well defended. He complained, however, that the French would not use the spade."He later returned to the United States and died on August 13, 1873, in New York. He is buried in an unmarked grave in Greenwood Cemetery in Brooklyn, New York.

In popular culture
Sanders was portrayed by Anthony Marble in the 2024 Apple TV+ miniseries series Manhunt.

title: George Nicholas Sanders


text:
Tax withholding in the United States

Three key types of withholding tax are imposed at various levels in the United States:
 * Wage withholding taxes,
 * Withholding tax on payments to foreign persons, and
 * Backup withholding on dividends and interest.

The amount of tax withheld is based on the amount of payment subject to tax. Withholding of tax on wages includes income tax, social security and medicare, and a few taxes in some states. Certain minimum amounts of wage income are not subject to income tax withholding. Wage withholding is based on wages actually paid and employee declarations on federal and state Forms W-4. Social Security tax withholding terminates when payments from one employer exceed the maximum wage base during the year.

Amounts withheld by payers (employers or others) must be remitted to the relevant government promptly. Amounts subject to withholding and taxes withheld are reported to payees and the government annually.

History
During World War II, Congress introduced payroll withholding and quarterly tax payments with the vote of the Current Tax Payment Act of 1943 :

In their History of the U.S. Tax System, the U.S. Department of Treasury describes tax withholding.

"This greatly eased the collection of the tax for both the taxpayer and the Bureau of Internal Revenue. However, it also greatly reduced the taxpayer's awareness of the amount of tax being collected, i.e. it reduced the transparency of the tax, which made it easier to raise taxes in the future."

Withholding on wages
In the US, withholding by employers of tax on wages is required by the federal, most state, and some local governments. Taxes withheld include federal income tax, Social Security and Medicare taxes, state income tax, and certain other levies by a few states.

Income tax withheld on wages is based on the amount of wages less an amount for declared withholding allowances (often called exemptions). Withholding for allowances are calculated based on the assumption of a full year of wages. Amounts of tax withheld are determined by the employer. Tax rates and withholding tables apply separately at the federal, most state, and some local levels. The amount to be withheld is based on both the amount wages paid on any paycheck and the period covered by the paycheck. Federal and some state withholding amounts are at graduated rates, so higher wages have higher withholding percentages. Withheld income taxes are treated by employees as a payment on account of tax due for the year, which is determined on the annual income tax return filed after the end of the year (federal Form 1040 series, and appropriate state forms). Withholdings in excess of tax so determined are refunded.

Under Internal Revenue Code section 3402(f)(2) and related U.S. Treasury regulations, an employee must provide the employer with a Federal Form W-4, "Employee's Withholding Allowance Certificate." Most states will accept the W4 form, but a few have a similar form, especially if the employee is filing different information at the state level than at the federal (an employee may be paying a different amount in withholding or claiming a different number of exemptions at the state level than the federal level). The form provides the employer with a Social Security number. Also, on the form employees declare the number of withholding allowances they believe they are entitled to. Allowances are generally based on the number of personal exemptions plus an amount for itemized deductions, losses, or credits. Employers are entitled to rely on employee declarations on Form W-4 unless they know they are wrong.

Social Security tax is withheld from wages at a flat rate of 6.2% (4.2% for 2011 and 2012 ). Wages paid above a fixed amount each year by any one employee are not subject to Social Security tax. For 2023, this wage maximum is $160,200. Medicare tax of 1.45% is withheld from wages, with no maximum. (This brings the total federal payroll tax withholding to 7.65%.) Employers are required to pay an additional equal amount of Medicare taxes, and a 6.2% rate of Social Security taxes.

Many states also impose additional taxes that are withheld from wages.

Wages are defined somewhat differently for different withholding tax purposes. Thus, federal income tax wages may differ from Social Security wages which may differ from state wages.

Withholding on payments to foreign persons
Companies and individuals who make certain types of payments to foreign persons must withhold federal income tax on those payments. Foreign persons include nonresident aliens, foreign corporations, and foreign partnerships. Payments subject to withholding include compensation for services, interest, dividends, rents, royalties, annuities, and certain other payments. Tax is withheld at 30% of the gross amount of the payment. This withholding rate may be reduced under a tax treaty. This tax withheld is usually considered a final determination and payment of tax, requiring no further action or tax return by the foreign person.

In addition, partnerships are required to make tax payments (referred to as withholding) on behalf of foreign partners. These payments are required regardless of whether income is actually distributed to the partner. Payments are also required quarterly or at year end for business income or other undistributed income. Partnership payments on business income are treated like estimated tax payments, and the foreign person must still file a U.S. tax return reporting the business income.

Purchasers of U.S. real estate must withhold 10% of the sales price from payments to foreign sellers. This amount can be reduced to the anticipated federal income tax due, upon advance application on Form 8288-B to the Internal Revenue Service. These payments are treated like estimated tax payments, and the foreign person must still file a U.S. tax return reporting any gain or loss.

Backup withholding
Payers of interest, dividends, and certain other items must withhold 28% Federal income tax on such payments in limited circumstances. Generally, this applies only if the recipient is a U.S. person, and either
 * the person has failed to provide a tax identification number on Form W-9 to the payer, or
 * the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has notified the payer that the payer must withhold.

Payment of withheld taxes
Withheld taxes must be paid to the appropriate government promptly. Rules vary by jurisdiction and by balance of total payments due. Federal employment tax payments are due either monthly or semi-weekly. Federal tax payments must be made either by deposit to a national bank or by electronic funds transfer. If the balance of federal tax payments exceeds $100,000, it must be paid within one banking day. Beginning January 1, 2011, payments may be made only by electronic funds transfer. State rules vary widely, and generally allow slightly more time for deposit of withheld taxes.

Reporting of withheld taxes
Employers must file a quarterly report of aggregate withholding taxes, Form 941, with the Internal Revenue Service. This report includes income, Social Security, and Medicare tax totals for the quarter. Partnerships making payments for partners must file Form 8813 quarterly. State requirements vary.

All persons withholding taxes must file annual Federal and state reports of the tax withheld and the amount subject to withholding. A copy must be provided to the employee or other payee. The relevant forms are as follows:
 * Form W-2 series for wages (the Federal report is also used for states), due to employees by January 31. A summary is filed on Form W-3.
 * Form 1042-S for payments to foreign persons, due to payees by March 15. A summary is filed on Form 1042.
 * Form 8805 for partnership payments, due at the same time as the partnership return. A summary is filed on Form 8804.
 * Form 1099 series for backup withholding

Federal filings must be done electronically if more than 250 forms are required. States generally do not require separate filings other than for partnerships, instead relying on information provided by the IRS.

Penalties
Failing to pay Federal taxes withheld can result in a penalty of 100% of the amount not paid. This may be assessed against anyone responsible for the funds from which payment of withheld tax could have been made.

Paying withheld Federal taxes late may result in penalties up to 10%, plus interest, on the balance paid late. State penalties vary. Failure to timely file withholding tax forms may result in penalties up to $50 per form not filed.

Intentional failures may result in criminal penalties.

title: Tax withholding in the United States


text:
Abstemius

An abstemius (plural abstemii) is one who cannot take wine without risk of vomiting. Since in Catholic practice the consecration at Mass must be effected in both species, of bread and wine, an abstemius is consequently irregular.

De jure divino vs. canonical law
Alphonsus Liguori, following the opinion of Suarez, teaches that such irregularity is de jure divino (Latin: "of divine law"); and that, therefore, the Pope cannot dispense from it. The term is also applied to one who has a strong distaste for wine, though able to take a small quantity. A distaste of this nature does not constitute irregularity, but a papal dispensation is required, in order to excuse from the use of wine at the purification of the chalice and the ablution of the priest's fingers at the end of a Mass celebrated in the Tridentine Mass. In these cases the use of wine is a canonical law from whose observance the Church has power to dispense. A decree of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, dated 13 January 1665, grants a dispensation in this sense to missionaries in China, on account of the scarcity of wine; various similar rulings are to be found in the collection of the decrees of the Sacred Congregation of Rites.

Non-Catholic views
Abstention from the use of wine has, occasionally, been declared obligatory by various Christian sects. It was one of the tenets of Gnosticism in the 2nd century. Tatian, the founder of the sect known as the Encratites, forbade the use of wine, and his adherents refused to make use of it even in the Sacrament of the Altar; in its place they used water. These sects, mentioned by St. Irenæus (Adversus haereses, I, xxx), are known as Hydroparastes, Aquarians, and Encratites.

Aabstemii on a somewhat different principle have appeared in more recent times. These are total abstainers, who maintain that the use of stimulants is essentially sinful, and believe that the wine used by Christ and his disciples at the Last Supper was unfermented. They accordingly communicate in the unfermented "juice of the grape."

Controversy over the reception of both species
At the beginning of the Reformation, one of the grievances alleged against the Church was that she did not allow the faithful to communicate under both kinds. "We excuse the Church", so runs the Augsburg Confession, "which has suffered the injustice of only receiving under one kind, not being able to have both; but we do not excuse the authors of this injustice, who maintain that it was right to forbid the administering of the complete Sacrament." How, then, were those to be admitted to the Lord's Table, who were unable to communicate under the species of wine? A decree of the Synod of Poitiers, in 1560, reads: "The Bread of the Lord's Supper shall be administered to those who cannot drink the wine, on condition that they shall declare that they do not abstain out of contempt." Other Protestant synods also lay down the rule that persons unable to take wine shall be admitted to the Lord's Table on condition that they shall at least touch with their lips the cup which holds the species of wine; Jurieu, on the other hand, starting from the principle that Christ has founded the essence of the Eucharist on the two species, held that an abstemius does not receive the Sacrament, because it consists of two parts, and he receives only one. A great controversy ensued among the Protestants themselves on this point. Bossuet held that communion under both kinds could not be of divine obligation, since many would thereby be deprived of the Sacrament owing to a natural weakness.

title: Abstemius


text:
Crypt Lake Trail

The Crypt Lake Trail is one of the premium hikes in Waterton Lakes National Park in Alberta, Canada. It is accessed by a dedicated ferry service operating from the Waterton Park Townsite.

The first part of the trail offers the choice of two alternate routes for ascent and return running through forest, the longer of which passes the impressive Hellroaring Falls. After that the trail becomes an open walk through a valley crossing small mountain streams and leading up to the views of Crypt Falls. The cascading Crypt Falls are over 150 m high and are fed by Crypt Lake in the hanging valley above the falls. The last part of the trail is the ascent to Crypt Lake. This part is more challenging; in parts the walk runs at the edge of steep drops, secured by cable and also involves crawling through a narrow, but short, tunnel. Finally the trail reaches the shores of Crypt Lake through a small forest.

Crypt Lake
Crypt Lake is a pristine alpine lake occupying a cirque that often has ice into August. Most of the area around the lake is covered in scree and/or snow, and hiking around the circumference of the lake requires approximately 45 minutes. Wildlife can be spotted in the mountains towering above including mountain goat and bighorn sheep. From Crypt Lake it is only a short walk to the edge of Crypt Falls with views over the valley below.

Hiking
The Crypt Lake Hike was voted "Canada's Best Hike" in 1981. The hike is accessed via the local ferry service, and begins with a gradual climb through shaded forests. As visitors progress into the hanging valley, the forest begins to thin out, and the strenuous section of the hike begins. Immediately after Burnt Rock Falls, the hike steadily climbs up onto the open alpine mountain side. This section of the hike, offers views of the Crypt Valley as well as that of the cascading Crypt Falls. After hiking along the mountain side, hikers arrive at the Crypt Lake Campground. This camping area was provided for overnight backpackers and was equipped with an outhouse and fireplace. However, the campground is now permanently closed and is no longer equipped with a fireplace. After continuing over the alpine creek adjacent to the campground, hikers follow the trail towards the ledge and tunnel. The ledge is about 50 cm wide, and continues over to a steel ladder and access to the tunnel. For nearly 100 ft, hikers crawl through a natural mountain tunnel before arriving at the cable transverse. This section of the hike involves a scramble along a sheer cliff, with the assistance of a steel cable. After the scramble, the route passes through a shaded forest before arriving at Crypt Lake. The hike is a total of 17.2 km round trip, with a gradual 2300 ft elevation gain.

The southern tip of Crypt Lake skirts Canada's international border with the United States, and the trail enters the United States for less than 50 m, meaning that hikers technically enter the United States illegally. However, there is no border-related signage or warnings, and no legal consequences for hikers, as entry any further into the United States at this location is impossible due to sheer mountain cliffs at the south end of the lake.

Wildlife
The slopes along the Crypt Lake Trail serve as primary bear country. Both grizzly bear and black bear can be seen on this trail. It is important to check with the visitor information centre and/or ferry service regarding recent bear sightings on the trail. Other large mammal species that call the Crypt Valley home include bighorn sheep, moose, mountain goat, mule deer and white-tailed deer. It is not uncommon to see striped or least chipmunk frequenting the trail, as well as other rodent species, such as hoary marmot, yellow-bellied marmot, red squirrel and Richardson's ground squirrel. Crypt Lake itself is stocked with cutthroat trout and is one of several destinations for local fishermen in the park.

Ferry service
Ferry service from the Waterton townsite brings hikers to the trail head twice in the morning and returns to pick them up, twice in the late afternoon (off of peak season [May–June, Sept-Oct], ferry services only make 1 round trip per day.) The time span is reasonable to perform the whole trail, but it's always a good idea to keep an eye on the time. There is no potable drinking water provided at the trail head (ferry landing site) or anywhere along the trail. There is an outhouse at the start of the trail where the ferry docks, and near the top of the trail at the designated campground before crossing to the cave entrance, however hikers are advised to bring their own toilet paper.

title: Crypt Lake Trail