text:
WEPN (AM)

WEPN (1050 kHz) is an sports radio AM radio station licensed to New York, New York. The station is owned-and-operated by Good Karma Brands and its transmitter site is located in North Bergen, New Jersey.

The 1050 AM facility in New York signed on in 1922 as WHN. For the majority of its existence under these call letters, as well as during its 14-year stint as WMGM, the station broadcast several different music-based formats, finally assuming a country music format in 1973. In 1987, WHN dropped its country format to become the first radio station dedicated entirely to sports programming, changing its call letters to WFAN. A series of transactions in the late 1980s resulted in WFAN's format and call letters moving in October 1988 to 660 AM (on which WFAN has continued to broadcast since), with the brokered programming format and call letters of The Forward-owned WEVD (previously on 97.9 FM) being moved to 1050 AM in February 1989. In 2001, The Walt Disney Company took control of the station (later buying it and renaming it to WEPN in 2003) and transformed it into a full-time affiliate of its ESPN Radio network. In 2012, WEPN became an affiliate of the Spanish-language ESPN Deportes Radio network, reverting to broadcasting the English-language ESPN Radio upon ESPN Deportes Radio's shutdown in 2019.

Since its return to ESPN Radio programming in 2019, the station has aired the national ESPN Radio lineup in its entirety, including programs not cleared by WEPN-FM and overflow play-by-play rights, including most New York Islanders games, and some New York Rangers games.

History
The 1050 frequency has a long history prior to this format. Starting in the 1920s as WHN, its programming was a standard mix of music, news, weather and drama. It was renamed WMGM in the late 1940s, continuing the same format until a switch to rock & roll in the late 1950s and early 1960s. As WHN again, it played adult standards in the 1960s and country music in the 1970s and 1980s (the format it was best known for). In the late 1980s as WFAN it was the original frequency for the very successful first of its kind all-sports station. Then began a truly convoluted set of ownership, call sign, and format changes from the Spanish language WUKQ to WEVD, a brokered station in the 1990s, to today's incarnation as WEPN.

WHN (1922–1948)
Originally owned by the Ridgewood Times newspaper, WHN was one of the first radio stations in New York City, going on the air on March 18, 1922, at AM frequency 833 kilocycles. The station's schedule was not originally published in its owner's radio page. The first mention of the station in the press may have been in the Brooklyn Eagle of April 9, 1922, with the following schedule: 9-11 a.m., Hour For Women; 12:15 p.m., Lunch Hour Gossip; 3:15, Afternoon Tea Discussion; 4:15, Radio Gossip For Amateurs, Boy Scout News. The "Radio Gossip" appears to have been instructions on how to build or operate a radio set by E.H. Lewis of the New York Y.M.C.A. Radio School. Before the end of April, WHN had added a two-hour Sunday afternoon program of religious music and a brief sermon, and augmented its Monday through Saturday programming with a talk on real estate at 6:15 p.m., and a children's bedtime story by James Baldwin at 7:15, followed by jazz or another talk.

The station was sharing 360 meters with WJZ, WWZ and WOR.

In March 1924, the station was sued by AT&T, which claimed that WHN failed to pay it for a commercial broadcasting license. However, public opinion turned against AT&T, with the public beginning to view AT&T as a monopolist, and AT&T began to fear an antitrust investigation. AT&T backed away from its lawsuit and agreed to settle out of court, with WHN paying $1,500 for a patent license. AT&T never again sued a broadcaster for failing to pay it for a commercial broadcasting license.

The station played jazz and contemporary dance music, including Sophie Tucker, Fletcher Henderson, and Duke Ellington, as well as broadcasting Columbia University football games. In 1928 the station was bought by the Loew's Theatre Organization. During the 1920s the station's frequency changed to 830, 760, and then 1010. In the 1930s it broadcast the Major Bowes Amateur Hour, which was picked up by the CBS Radio Network.

In 1933, WHN became a full-time station when it acquired the licenses of WRNY and WQAO-WPAP with approval by the Federal Radio Commission on January 31 and February 3, respectively.

In 1938, WHN hosted a show called Whiz Kids.

WHN made its final frequency change to 1050 in 1941. During the 1940s the programs Radio Newsreel and Newsreel Theater were prototypes for what later became the all-news radio format. The station broadcast Brooklyn Dodgers games with Red Barber as well as the New York Giants and New York Rangers with Marty Glickman.

In 1946, the station hired Eddie Cantor's daughter Marilyn as one of the earliest female disc jockeys. She ran a program for children.

WMGM (1948–1962)
On September 15, 1948, the station changed its call letters to WMGM, reflecting Loew's then-ownership of movie studio Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer. The station had a diversified format that included pop standard hits, drama, talk, and sports, and briefly featured New York talk host Barry Gray.

In May 1956, the station switched to playing Top 40 rock and roll hits, which covered a broad spectrum of music. The '50s brand of Top 40 played by WMGM and its competitors included what might today be considered rhythm and blues and country music, in addition to popular instrumentals (Percy Faith's 1960 "Theme from A Summer Place" and Acker Bilk's 1962 "Stranger on the Shore" hit the top of the charts during this era). WMGM was overall more up-tempo than the competition, featuring artists like Elvis Presley, Fats Domino, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis, Frankie Lymon, the Crystals, the Tokens, Ray Charles, Dinah Washington, Brook Benton, Ricky Nelson, and Bill Haley. Playlists were narrower and more predictable than mainstream MOR stations'. WMGM's disc jockey lineup included morning man Ted Brown and the Redhead (Ted's then-wife Rhoda ), Jerry Marshall, Peter Tripp, Norm Stevens, Dick Shepherd, Bob Lewis, Ed Stokes and Bob Callen. Among its newsreaders were Bill Edmunds, Dick DeFrietas and Aime Govin. During its Top 40 incarnation, WMGM was for a time home to New York Yankees baseball with Mel Allen, Red Barber and Phil Rizzuto. Ex-athletes Marty Glickman and Gussie Moran worked Yankees pre- and post-game shows from the studio.

WMGM had a theme song incorporating the names of many of its DJs in the 1960s. The words were: He was a US Marshal and Jerry was his name. So they called him Jerry Marshall and widespread was his fame. He went to catch the outlaws, Bob Callen and Ted Brown Who were roping old Dick Shephard's sheep and herding them to town. Sing a song about Western hero men will never ride the range again. They're on 1050 WMGM.

By 1962, with 1010 WINS, 770 WABC, and 570 WMCA also playing predominantly rock and roll music, WMGM-1050 was sold by Loew's to Storer Communications, which owned mostly TV stations, but also owned WIBG, a rock and roll radio station less than 100 mi away in Philadelphia.

WHN again (1962–1987)
Storer immediately dropped Top 40 for slow-paced standards and beautiful music, the province of much of FM radio at the time. The station was renamed WHN again on February 28, 1962, with special permission of the FCC. Three-letter call sign sets are a rarity and have not been issued to broadcast stations since the early 1930s.

Through the 1960s, WHN became New York City's Mutual Broadcasting System affiliate. On-air hosts included Jim Ameche, and early on, the comedy team of Bob Elliot and Ray Goulding (Bob and Ray). (Morning host Ted Brown remained with WHN for only a short time of transition, heading eventually to MOR WNEW. The station played vocalists such as Nat King Cole, Perry Como, Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby, Peggy Lee, Patti Page, and Johnny Mathis, plus a heavy dose of instrumentalist groups, notably Percy Faith, Al Hirt, Ray Conniff, and Henry Mancini. The station was about 75% vocal and 25% instrumental. Ratings were respectable, but the demographic was older by a generation or two. In 1968, WHN gradually began mixing in softer songs by artists like Elvis Presley, The Everly Brothers, The Beatles, The Association, and others with their easy listening format. Still, the ratings were below average. By 1970, the station had evolved into more of a MOR format and less of an easy listening format and by 1972 evolved into more of an adult contemporary format similar to what WNEW was then doing.

WHN picked up New York Mets baseball for 1964 (with announcers Lindsey Nelson, Bob Murphy, and Ralph Kiner), after the team's original NYC flagship, WABC 770, dropped the rights, broadcasting through the 1966 season, with the Mets later returning to their airwaves from 1972 through 1974. The station also became a launching pad for the radio sports broadcasting career of Marv Albert, who hosted the "Interwoven Scoreboard" after Mets games and later on reintroduced New York fans to the Knicks and Rangers on radio. Initially, Rangers games were broadcast in small doses: the last two minutes of the first and second periods, then the entire third period. The entire metropolitan area enjoyed Red Holzman's miracle 1969–70 Knicks championship run, much of which was blacked out on TV.

Overall though, WHN's ratings were still low. After a lot of research, on February 26, 1973, WHN became a country music station. The New York Metropolitan Area had never been a country music hot spot, and prior to WHN, the area had only had two country music stations: WJRZ in Hackensack, New Jersey and WTHE in Mineola, New York. In the early years of WHN's country format, it featured on-air personalities such as Larry Kenney, Big Wilson and Jack Spector. Some of these were holdovers from the previous middle of the road format. As a country music station, they played artists like Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, Tanya Tucker, Lynn Anderson, Kenny Rogers, Mel Tillis, Charley Pride, Mickey Gilley, Ronnie Milsap, and many more. Also, they mixed in non-country and country-pop cross-over artists that had country-friendly songs such as The Eagles, Elvis Presley, Anne Murray, Olivia Newton-John, Linda Ronstadt, and others. Over the years, as WHN evolved as a country station, on-air personalities such as Dan Daniel, Alan Colmes, Jerry Carroll and others moved in. During this era, WHN was programmed by Ed Salamon, who was inducted into the Country Radio Hall of Fame in 2006. Salamon and promotional partner Dale Pon were able to walk the line between country music like Johnny Cash, Dolly Parton, and latter day Elvis, Top 40 radio programming tactics, and the late 70s rock artists –including The Eagles, Ronstadt, Newton-John, and Rogers– who had absorbed country into their contemporary pop– and, using extensive, award-winning television and transit advertising, into one of the most successful Country radio stations in history.

In the late 1970s, Mutual Radio bought WHN from Storer. In 1980, WHN got some competition when WRVR was sold to Viacom and dropped jazz for country and became WKHK (also known as "Kick 106 FM"). As a result, ratings went down for WHN, although they again added New York Mets baseball to their lineup in 1983 (WHN had previously carried the Mets from 1964 through 1968, and again in 1972 through 1974).

In 1984, WKHK became "Lite FM" WLTW, playing a soft adult contemporary format. Without direct competition, WHN remained country, with decent ratings. In 1985 Doubleday Broadcasting acquired WHN, and sold the station to Emmis Communications in 1986. Emmis added sports talk in the evenings, but kept the country format the rest of the day until 1987. In late April 1987, Emmis announced that WHN would drop country on July 1 for an all-sports format, the first of its kind on radio. They would drop the WHN calls and become WFAN (The Fan). In May, NBC announced that Adult Contemporary WYNY (today's WQHT) would go country on July 1. Dan Taylor signed off WHN's 25-year history at 3 p.m. that day with "For The Good Times" by Ray Price.

WFAN (1987–1988)
The first voice heard on WFAN was that of Suzyn Waldman with a sports update at 3:00 pm, followed by the first show, which was hosted by Jim Lampley. Waldman would report for the station, covering the Yankees and Knicks, for 14 years. Other personalities that hosted shows besides Lampley in the 1050 kHz years included Bill Mazer, Pete Franklin, Greg Gumbel and Ed Coleman. WFAN also inherited broadcast rights to the defending World Series champion New York Mets from WHN, who had held the rights for several years. Ratings were low initially but gradually improved.

In early 1988, General Electric, which now owned NBC through its purchase of RCA two years earlier, announced that it would sell off the NBC Radio division. In February of that year, GE made a multi-station deal with Emmis; in New York, the WNBC and WYNY licenses were included in the sale. This ended up giving Emmis control of four frequencies: 97.1 FM, 103.5 FM, 660 AM and 1050 AM, whereas duopolies were not permitted yet by the Federal Communications Commission.

On September 22, 1988, Emmis ended up moving their Dance/R&B "Hot" format and call letters WQHT over to the 97.1 frequency (while selling the 103.5 facility and WYNY's intellectual property over to Westwood One; that station would later become WKTU in 1996), and then moved WFAN's format and call letters from 1050 to 660 on October 7, at 5:30 pm, replacing "66 WNBC", which signed off forever.

WUKQ (1988–1989)
As for the 1050 license, the Spanish Broadcasting System bought it, intending to swap it with cash to The Jewish Daily Forward for their FM station, WEVD (97.9 FM). However, Spanish Broadcasting already owned WSKQ (620 AM) in Newark, New Jersey. The deal for WEVD could not be consummated at the same time as Emmis' purchase of 660, which left Spanish Broadcasting owning two AM stations in the New York market, which (as was the case with Emmis earlier) was not permitted under FCC rules at that time.

The FCC granted them a temporary waiver to run 1050 on a noncommercial basis until it could be transferred. Therefore, following WFAN's move to 660, 620 WSKQ flipped from Spanish Adult Contemporary to Spanish Oldies while the 1050 facility became "KQ 1050" WUKQ, playing Spanish Adult Contemporary music (commercial-free, to satisfy the FCC requirement).

For the first few hours after the switch of WFAN to the 660 facility, WUKQ broadcast a recorded message which was continuously looped stating:

"'This is WUKQ-AM New York, operating at 1050 Kilohertz. If you're looking for SportsRadio 1050, we've moved... down the dial to 66 AM. Join us now for the new SportsRadio 66 WFAN.'"

WEVD (1989–2003)
The FCC approved the trade of WUKQ for WEVD on February 1, 1989. Under the deal, the Spanish AC format on 620 would move to 97.9 FM, and the station would become WSKQ-FM. Meanwhile, WEVDs call letters and programming moved to the 1050 facility. Dating back to October 20, 1927, WEVD had been the radio station owned by the Workman's Circle (Arbeter Ring) in New York City. Its call letters were a tribute to legendary Socialist Party leader Eugene Victor Debs, who died one year earlier.

This was WEVD's second existence on the AM dial, as it was originally a time-share at 1330 AM with WPOW, an arrangement that lasted until 1984. WEVD soon added an FM counterpart at 107.5 FM in 1950, which then moved to 97.9 FM in 1952. Both stations maintained the same programming through the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. The AM station was sold on March 2, 1981, for $1.1 million to Salem Communications, and changed the call letters to WNYM (now WWRV) while WEVD continued on the FM dial.

By 1988, the station was mostly an outlet for leased access foreign language programming. WEVD had a brokered format with Jewish programming (in Yiddish and English), ethnic programs, talk shows, and a big band show with Danny Stiles. The station generated cash flow by selling blocks of airtime, which allowed it to be profitable despite minimal ratings.

By the mid-1990s, WEVD was branded as "News-Talk 1050 WEVD", and had a talk format with a liberal emphasis on weekdays, with ethnic programming at night and on weekends. Talk hosts included Bill Mazer, former New York mayor Ed Koch, Jay Diamond, and Alan Colmes.

During most of 1050's existence as WEVD, the station broadcast Mets, Jets, Knicks and Rangers games produced by WFAN, when WFAN was already broadcasting another game. WFAN game overruns are now broadcast on WBBR.

In 2001, WEVD entered into a local marketing agreement with ABC/Disney and added ESPN Radio's The Dan Patrick Show to the talk lineup. Despite a public campaign to save the old format, the LMA was signed into effect. During its final day on-air as "News-Talk 1050 WEVD", the outraged public campaign was subtly extended into the station's control room, as soon-to-be terminated staffers occasionally interrupted portions of the brokered programming with audio clips, some of which contained obscenities. On September 1, 2001, Alan Colmes was the last voice heard on WEVD closing out the station by giving out his web address, playing Steam's "Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye", and said the last words similar to the last words he said on 66 WNBC in 1988 saying, "We thank you very much, thank you for listening and for the very last time, This is News-Talk 1050 WEVD New York".

On September 2, 2001, at Midnight, WEVD began running ESPN Radio full-time, albeit having simulcast WABC's coverage of the September 11 attacks nine days later. The first local voice on "1050 ESPN Radio" was Don La Greca.

WEPN (2003–present)
The call-sign was changed to WEPN on April 28, 2003, after being sold to ABC/Disney outright for $78 million. They continued to run the station as "1050 ESPN Radio". For years, WEPN billed itself as New York City's only all-sports station, since competitor WFAN's former morning show, Imus in the Morning, was primarily a politically based talk show. However, this is now a misnomer, since Don Imus has been replaced by a sports-themed show, Boomer and Carton in the Morning.

Despite the fact that it is a 50,000-watt station, it cannot be heard clearly in many parts of the New York metropolitan area, especially west of New York City and in Suffolk County on Long Island. WEPN has a highly directional signal, due primarily to the fact that there is another 50,000-watt station on 1050, CHUM, a few hundred miles to the northwest in Toronto, and yet another 50,000-watt station, KYW, in Philadelphia on the adjacent frequency 1060 AM, along with protecting the signal of Monterrey-based XEG in Northern Mexico to the southwest.

According to Arbitron data of as early 2006, WFAN's daytime ratings were about 3 points higher on average than WEPN's, though WFAN's most-known and now-defunct Mike and the Mad Dog show had been airing since 1989, or well over a decade longer than WEPN had existed. Because of WEPN's limited signal, all Jets games once were simulcast on WABC, which reaches more of the suburbs. The station had also worked with MSG Network to find affiliates for Knicks and Rangers games outside WEPN's coverage area. Early in 2008, to strengthen the reach of WEPN, ESPN reached local marketing agreements to simulcast WEPN on WLIR in Hampton Bays, extending WEPN's reach to eastern Long Island, and on WNJE in Flemington (for "New Jersey's ESPN"), extending WEPN's reach into the Skylands Region and the Trenton market. WNJE broadcast the WEPN signal full-time. WLIR broke off the simulcast in the summer of 2011 when the station was sold to a religious broadcaster. WNJE ended the simulcast with WEPN on December 3, 2012.

There were also partnerships with Syracuse University and the United States Military Academy to air college football games, but those usually aired on former sister stations WABC or WQEW due to scheduling conflicts. WEPN had overflow agreements with WNYM and WWRL, the former airing Knicks or Rangers games that overlapped with each other or with the Jets and the latter airing when there were two overlapping games.

Bidding for baseball
WEPN was expected to bid for the radio rights for either the New York Yankees, at the time on WCBS (AM), or New York Mets, from their longtime home of WFAN. Both teams had contracts that expired at the end of the 2013 season, with the Yankees purposely extending their deal with WCBS to expire at the same time as the Mets, for better leverage. It had been reported that WEPN had been looking to move to a stronger frequency to accommodate having a Major League Baseball team full-time. Ultimately the Yankees moved to WFAN, displacing the Mets, who signed on with WOR.

ESPN Deportes Radio

On April 26, 2012, Disney announced a 12-year lease of Emmis Communications' 98.7 WRKS, under which WEPN's programming would transition to FM, and the AM signal would be converted to a new Spanish-language sports format as part of the ESPN Deportes Radio network by mid-September 2012 (to coincide with National Hispanic Heritage Month).

The transition began on April 30 when WRKS, now christened as WEPN-FM, began to simulcast WEPN's AM signal as 98.7 ESPN New York. WEPN broke away from the simulcast on September 7, 2012, and re-launched as promised as ESPN Deportes Nueva York. At launch, the station carried the national lineup of the network, and local morning and afternoon drive shows (Firma ESPN and Zona ESPN NY). The station also acquired Spanish-language rights to the New York Jets.

On December 13, 2012, ESPN announced that it had acquired the rights to the Spanish-language broadcasts of the Mets, starting with the 2013 season.

ESPN Radio
On June 11, 2019, ESPN announced that it would be discontinuing the ESPN Deportes Radio network on September 8, 2019. It was stated that WEPN would switch back to an English-language sports format at this time. In September 2019, ESPN agreed to a two-year deal to carry at least 60 New York Islanders broadcasts; due to WEPN-FM's existing contracts with the Knicks and Rangers, most Islanders games are aired on 1050 AM, with select games on WEPN-FM, and previous flagship WRHU continuing to be the primary station for games not carried on either WEPN or WEPN-FM.

In December 2021, Good Karma Brands announced that it would acquire WEPN. The deal closed on March 1, 2022.

title: WEPN (AM)


text:
User:Asdfdsa

Asdfdsa is Asdfdsa.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Asdfdsa


text: User talk:170.161.64.16

title: User talk:170.161.64.16


text:
Wetting layer

A wetting layer is an monolayer of atoms that is epitaxially grown on a flat surface. The atoms forming the wetting layer can be semimetallic elements/compounds or metallic alloys (for thin films). Wetting layers form when depositing a lattice-mismatched material on a crystalline substrate. This article refers to the wetting layer connected to the growth of self-assembled quantum dots (e.g. InAs on GaAs). These quantum dots form on top of the wetting layer. The wetting layer can influence the states of the quantum dot for applications in quantum information processing and quantum computation.

Process
The wetting layer is epitaxially grown on a surface using molecular beam epitaxy (MBE). The temperatures required for wetting layer growth typically range from 400-500 degrees Celsius. When a material A is deposited on a surface of a lattice-mismatched material B, the first atomic layer of material A often adopts the lattice constant of B. This mono-layer of material A is called the wetting layer. When the thickness of layer A increases further, it becomes energetically unfavorable for material A to keep the lattice constant of B. Due to the high strain of layer A, additional atoms group together once a certain critical thickness of layer A is reached. This island formation reduces the elastic energy. Overgrown with material B, the wetting layer forms a quantum well in case material A has a lower bandgap than B. In this case, the formed islands are quantum dots. Further annealing can be used to modify the physical properties of the wetting layer/quantum dot .

Properties
The wetting layer is a close-to mono-atomic layer with a thickness of typically 0.5 nanometers. The electronic properties of the quantum dot can change as a result of the wetting layer. Also, the strain of the quantum dot can change due to the wetting layer.

title: Wetting layer


text:
Talk:Maximum parsimony (phylogenetics)

comments
Good article, anon, but I wish to improve it to clarify some points and possibly make it more accessible.

OLD: Maximum parsimony

Maximum parsimony is a simple but popular technique in bioinformatics to predict the best phylogenetic tree for an organism.

NEW: Introduction

Maximum parsimony is a simple but popular technique used in cladistics to predict an accurate phylogenetic tree for a set of taxa (commonly a set of species or reproductively-isolated populations of a single species.

Comments: The level 2 heading 'maximum parsimony' is redundant - have replaced with 'Introduction'. 'Bioinformatics' has been replaced with 'cladistics' because the former is more of a broad approach to biological research than a specific field of research. Have removed 'best' from introduction as this does not scientifically-describe the criteria for an optimal tree - 'accurate' is better. In addition, 'best' could be inferred as stating that MP is the best method to produce a tree when there is no consensus that any method is the best under all circumstances. Have also replaced 'organism' with 'set of taxa' and given two examples of appropriate sets to compare.

--ChrisJMoor 00:59, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There needs to be some mention of bootstrapping. Jim Bowery 18:57, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

NEW VERSION
I've done the best I can with what is here, but it would be great if, in the future, someone could break this out into separate artciles for different classes of data, types of analysis, and optimality criteria. As it is, the MP entry is pretty much holding down the entire subject of character-based phylogenetics, which isn't ideal. And, of course, citations would really help alot. Everything in the article is supported, honest. Google Hillis. 24.174.131.158 02:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup taskforce: you are doing a really good job with this article!70.113.48.142 15:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

redo
The WP:LEDE is probably too long... and many other nitpicks to be repaired... I'll try to add some cites as time permits but will be busy this week... --Ling.Nut 06:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mmmm, also looks to me like there may be more than a little shtuff that needs to be moved to some other article(s), such as the paragraph beginning: "Neighbor-joining is a form of star decomposition..." Will do as time permits. --Ling.Nut 07:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, almost the entire Alternatives section is not directly related to this article & should be moved out to other articles... --Ling.Nut 08:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Plus the Criticism section is looking disturbingly like WP:OR. It was filled with... really blatant violations of WP:SELF as well.. "It has been asserted in a previous version of this article.." Yikes! --Ling.Nut 08:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

feedback
Great job editing this page!

- Agree on the "alternatives" material: I do hope some of it can be salvaged...

- The "criticism" is not Original Research... most of these criticism IS in fact published, but finding references is not going to be pleasant. Some of the RESPONSES may be even more difficult to find references for.

- I haven't read the "self-referencing" guidlines, but I never actually CITED myself. For what it is worth.

Again, you are doing a great job! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.83.166.125 (talk) 16:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

'Maximum' considered unnecessary
"Maximum parsimony" is not the correct title for this article - the word "maximum" is implicit in the term "parsimony" and its usage... So many seem to get this wrong!' Ryan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.132.41 (talk • contribs) 26 March 2008

clarify "Problems with maximum parsimony pylogeny estimation"
I have a hard time understanding the example in this section. In the first paragraph, it is referred to "charactes (A & C)", but surely these are taxa?

Then, is the figure supposed to represent the actual relationship, or the calculated (MP) tree?

While I see the point with only one character, won't the many substitutions (another word could profitably be used here, this seems to assume we're working on a molecular level) between branches A and D ensure that the tree will be more accurate when more characters are taken into account?

kzm (talk) 11:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

repetitive
Several times throughout the article, it is said that it's not good to exclude input data only because they have gaps/wildcards. Probably a valid point, but there's no need to hammer. (I also wonder how biologists can use such ad-hoc elimination methods on their data in seemingly arbitrary fashion, without a mathematical proof that they are useful, but maybe I'm misinterpreting the text.)--87.162.58.83 (talk) 04:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Citation Needed
There's a citation needed tag about inconsistency of ML with suboptimal models. The citation is Farris, James S., 1999. Likelihood and Inconsistency. Cladistics 15, 199–204. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.192.51.242 (talk) 15:58, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Minimum Evolution
Minimum evolution redirects here, but I don't think it should. MP and ME are different approaches, and there is no mention of ME in this article. In the absence of a separate article on 'minimum evolution', how about having a min evolution section in 'computational phylogenetics', and redirecting there? Objections?tom fisher-york (talk) 01:55, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree in part: minimum evolution should definitely have a dedicated page and the balanced minimum evolution should be sufficiently highlighted as it is the most accurate statistically consistent estimation model in distance method (and in broad phylogenetics).

However, it should be noted that in Kidd and sgaramella-zonta’s article the framework minimum evolution actually relies implicitly upon the lex parsimoniae (or occam razor’s principle). This particular detail connects ME to MP. I invite to read that article again because this issue is delicate. Daniele.Catanzaro (talk) 20:15, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Minimum Evolution - Part 2
I rewrote the previous paragraph on Minimum Evolution mainly due to the presence of numerous imprecisions and nonsenses. I have also proposed the creation of a main article on Minimum Evolution (to be slowly and accurately completed over time). Minimum Evolution is the ONLY method currently available to analyze very massive datasets such as those relative to the SARS-Cov2 pandemic (see https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global) The removed text is the following:

The minimum-evolution tree-optimality criterion is similar to the maximum-parsimony criterion in that the tree that has the shortest total branch lengths is said to be optimal. The difference between these two criteria is that minimum evolution is calculated from a distance matrix, whereas maximum parsimony is calculated directly using the character matrix. Like the maximum-parsimony tree, the minimum-evolution tree must be sought in "tree space", typically using a heuristic search method. A "fast minimum evolution" method can be quicker than the usual neighbor-joining algorithm for (greedily) generating such a tree.

The new text looks like the following

From among the distance methods, there exists a phylogenetic estimation criterion, known as Minimum Evolution (ME), that shares with maximum-parsimony the aspect of searching for the phylogeny that has the shortest total sum of branch lengths.

A subtle difference distinguishes the maximum-parsimony criterion from the ME criterion: while maximum-parsimony is based on an abductive heuristic, i.e., the plausibility of the simplest evolutionary hypothesis of taxa with respect to the more complex ones, the ME criterion is based on Kidd and Sgaramella-Zonta's conjectures (proven true 22 years later by Rzhetsky and Nei ) stating that if the evolutionary distances from taxa were unbiased estimates of the true evolutionary distances then the true phylogeny of taxa would have a length shorter than any other alternative phylogeny compatible with those distances. Rzhetsky and Nei's results set the ME criterion free from the Occam's razor principle and confer it a solid theoretical and quantitative basis.

A stab at a simplified lead
I didn't think the lead was serving the needs of an intelligent middle-schooler at all well, so I made rather aggressive structural changes to the lead, while denting the actual text as little as possible—though I did add my own explanatory text concerning the core challenge of phylogenetics to help set the stage. Having not massaged the original text, the revised structure is not as smooth as it might be (and there are some obvious warts). I encourage anyone with a sense of appropriate language in this subject domain to further polish the flow. — MaxEnt 10:51, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

technical content swizzle in lead
I took a second stab to make the lead more comprehensive and less essayish in tone, bumping the last two paras off the lead into a new section titled "Alternate characterization and rationale" (admittedly an ugly limbo) and replacing these two paragraphs with substantive concerns lifted from the main article and mildly restructured for reading level. — MaxEnt 11:23, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Maximum parsimony (phylogenetics)


text:
Mens sana in corpore sano

Mens sana in corpore sano is a Latin phrase, usually translated as "a healthy mind in a healthy body". The phrase is widely used in sporting and educational contexts to express that physical exercise is an important or essential part of mental and psychological well-being.

History
The phrase comes from Satire X (c. 2nd century AD) of the Roman poet Juvenal (10.356). It is the first in a list of what is desirable in life:

Traditional commentators believe that Juvenal’s intention was to teach his fellow Roman citizens that in the main, their prayers for such things as long life are misguided and that the gods had provided man with virtues which he then lists for them.

Over time and separated from its context, the phrase has come to have a range of meanings. It can be construed to mean that only a healthy mind can lead to a healthy body, or equally that only a healthy body can produce or sustain a healthy mind. Its most general usage is to express the hierarchy of needs, with physical and mental health at the root.

An earlier, similar saying is attributed to the 6th century BC Greek pre-Socratic philosopher Thales of Miletus:

Usages

 * Later usages
 * John Locke (1632–1704) uses the phrase in his book Some Thoughts Concerning Education, 1693.
 * Heinrich von Treitschke used this phrase in his work titled The Army. He uses the phrase to highlight a sound principle of his German nationalistic doctrine.  His work echoes the principles of late nineteenth century Prussian society.
 * Its first use in an athletic context appears to have been by John Hulley in December 1861. In 1862, he chose it as the motto of the Liverpool Athletic Club and Liverpool Olympic Games.
 * Koenraad Keyer, leader of the Public Health Council of the Netherlands during the Second World War, used the phrase as a goal for public health care.
 * Slavic Sokol movement (f. 1862)
 * Usage as the motto of athletic clubs:
 * Liverpool Athletic Club
 * Paraná Clube
 * Gimnasia y Esgrima de Buenos Aires
 * Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata
 * Georgetown Hoyas
 * R.S.C. Anderlecht
 * C.D. Santa Clara
 * Associação de Educação Física e Desportiva
 * The Turners Organization American Turners and their local organizations like the Los Angeles turners.
 * Carlton Football Club
 * Asociacion Atletica Argentinos Juniors
 * The Israeli Institute of Technology athletics teams
 * Mens Sana Basket
 * Beale Gaelic Football Club from County Kerry
 * Torrens Rowing Club
 * Sydney Rowing Club
 * Usage as the motto of military institutions:
 * Royal Marines physical training instructors (PTI).
 * Riverside Military Academy in Gainesville, Georgia
 * Hargrave Military Academy in Chatham, Virginia
 * Army Physical Training Corps (APTC)
 * PERI (Physical Education & Recreation Instructors), which is part of the Canadian Military
 * New Zealand Defence Force Physical Training Instructors.
 * Usage as the motto of educational institutions:
 * East Brisbane State School, Queensland, Australia
 * Windham High School (Ohio)
 * Hiranandani Foundation School, Mumbai, India
 * Teacher's College of Columbia University has this phrase engraved on its Horace Mann hall, on 120th Street in New York City
 * The University College London Men's Rugby Football Club, Based out of the Bloomsbury in London
 * Grant Medical College and Sir J.J. Hospital, Mumbai
 * Widener University and the State University of New York at Buffalo
 * The phrase appears in stone on the western facade of the School of Public Health at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana
 * The phrase appears in stone above the entranceway to the Athletic Center at Mount Allison University in Sackville, New Brunswick
 * Albert Schweitzer Pastoral Medicine Institute
 * Dhaka Physical Education College in Dhaka, Bangladesh
 * Sparta High School in Sparta, New Jersey
 * Charleston Female Seminary
 * Detroit Country Day School in Beverly Hills, Michigan
 * Erskine Academy in South China, Maine
 * Roger Bacon High School, St. Bernard, Ohio
 * Bjelke-Petersen School of Physical Culture, Australia
 * Bridgewater Junior Senior High School in Bridgewater, Nova Scotia
 * Kongsbakken videregående skole in Tromsø, Norway
 * Lakefield College School in Lakefield, Canada
 * Polish Association of Sport named SOKÓŁ before World War I. Poland, Galicja in that time Austria
 * The Internado Nacional Barros Arana in Santiago, Chile.
 * Used as a line in the school song of Bangor Grammar School, in Bangor, County Down, Northern Ireland.
 * Used as motto for Lundsbergs skola, an elite school in Sweden.
 * Used as motto for Foxcroft School, an all-girls' boarding school in Middleburg, Virginia.
 * Westholme School, an independent school set on the edge of the countryside of Blackburn, England
 * Loyola High School in Montreal, Quebec, Canada
 * Winsor School in Boston, Massachusetts uses the English translation as their motto.
 * Usage in other cases:
 * The phrase was a favorite of Harry S. Truman, the 33rd President of the United States.
 * The sneaker and sports equipment manufacturer Asics takes its name from an acronym of a variant: "anima sana in corpore sano" 'a healthy soul in a healthy body'.
 * Mensa, a high-IQ society, derives its name both from the Latin word for table, "mensa" and a pun on the phrase "mens sana".
 * Sound Body Sound Mind, a United States nonprofit organization (501(c)(3) that promotes self-confidence and healthy lifestyle choices among children.
 * A variant, in Danish En sund sjæl i et sundt legeme was the motto of Captain J.P. Jespersen, a Danish gymnastics educator/instructor.
 * Nikola Tesla, in his work titled "The Problem of Increasing Human Energy" supports the idea, recommending moderate exercise and avoiding overemphasis on physical fitness.
 * "In corpore sano" is a song by the Serbian singer-songwriter Konstrakta which she represented Serbia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2022 with, finishing 5th.
 * Victoria Wood uses it in comedic parody Mens Sana In Thingummy Doodah

title: Mens sana in corpore sano


text:
Aktuelle Kamera

Aktuelle Kamera (Current Camera) was the flagship television newscast of Deutscher Fernsehfunk, the state broadcaster of the German Democratic Republic (known as Fernsehen der DDR from 11 February 1972 to 11 March 1990). On air from 21 December 1952 (daily broadcasts did not take place until 11 October 1957) to 14 December 1990, Aktuelle Kamera was one of the main propaganda tools of the East German government.

Editorial line
Originally, Aktuelle Kamera was (at least by Eastern Bloc standards) fairly critical of the ruling Socialist Unity Party. This was because television was not considered part of the mass media at the time due to its limited reach. However, this changed when the television service reported accurately on the uprising in East Berlin on 17 June 1953. In the repression following the uprising, DFF's director was sacked. Afterwards, DFF/DDR-FS's newsroom was directly linked to the SED Politburo, and Aktuelle Kamera took on a similar look to its radio and newspaper counterparts. For most of the next 37 years, it had a marked pro-government bias and typically did not report on news that could potentially fuel anti-government sentiment. With few exceptions, stories promoted socialism and portrayed the West in a negative manner.

Schedule and popularity
Aktuelle Kamera's main edition was initially scheduled at 20:00 before being moved to 19:30 in the 1960s, so as not to coincide with the major West German newscasts, ZDF's heute at 19:00 and the ARD's Tagesschau at 20:00, both of which were widely watched in East Germany. The broadcast lasted 20 minutes until 1972 when it was expanded to a full half-hour. Starting in the mid-1970s, another 30-minute edition was presented on DDR2 (launched on 3 October 1969) around 21:30. Prior to that, both channels aired Aktuelle Kamera simultaneously at 19:30, then repeated the following day when DDR1 signed on around 9:30 (later 8:30), before airing school-oriented programming, co-produced by the DDR-FS and the GDR Education Ministry.

News summaries were added as the transmissions increased during the day. There was a bulletin at the end of the morning programs (i.e. between 12:00 and 13:00) and another, the afternoon news update, at 17:00 on DDR1. DDR2's evening schedule always began with the news at 18:45 (later 17:45 and 18:55). Late newscasts didn't appear until the 1970s when DDR1 screened a headline update following the magazine programs, around 22:00. From the 1980s, Aktuelle Kamera's final round-up was the last scheduled program at the end of the day.

In fact, television audiences largely ignored Aktuelle Kamera, preferring to watch West German newscasts, like the ARD's Tagesschau. The East German authorities adopted the French color standard SECAM rather than the PAL encoding used in the Federal Republic of Germany. The basic television standard remained the same. It did prevent reception in color by native East German television sets though the majority of them were monochrome (black and white) anyway.

East Germans responded by buying PAL decoders for their SECAM television sets. Eventually, the government in East Berlin stopped paying attention to so-called Republikflucht via Fernsehen, or "defection via television" and from 1977 onwards permitted the sale of dual standard (PAL/SECAM) sets; the SECAM standard stopped being used in East Germany after reunification, instead using PAL as it had been in the West.

Aktuelle Kamera served as an example for the Estonian newscast Aktuaalne kaamera that was first aired in Eesti Televisioon on 11 March 1956. Aktuaalne Kaamera, even after several changes in format and Estonia restoring its independence, still airs as a daily newscast there today.

Coverage during the last days of GDR
Starting in October 1989 almost a month before the fall of the Berlin Wall (9 November), Aktuelle Kamera loosened its fidelity to the party line and began presenting fair reports about the events transforming East Germany at the time. On 16 October, it showed its first pictures of the massive opposition rallies taking place every Monday in Leipzig. Within two days of its historic coverage of the Monday demonstrations in East Germany, AK broadcast highlights of the dramatic October SED plenum that saw the mass removal of the party leadership and of several members of its Central Committee.

On 30 October 1989, Aktuelle Kamera on DDR2 was rebranded as AK Zwo. Three months later, long after the Berlin Wall fell but before German reunification, AK Zwo's theme and graphics were carried over to Aktuelle Kamera versions on the DFF1 (the former DDR1) on 12 March 1990. The 12:50 newscast was from then known as AK am Mittag ("CC at Midday") and the main broadcast at 19:30 became AK am Abend ("CC Evening"). News summaries received the generic name of AK-Nachrichten (simply "CC-News") or AK-Kurznachrichten.

The 1990 editions featured highlights of the events on the eve of national reunification (2–3 October) and on the day itself.

Fate after reunification
The last AK am Abend was anchored by Wolfgang Meyer on 14 December 1990 at 19:30, while the last newscast as Aktuelle Kamera was anchored by Petra Kusch-Lück at 1:00 on DFF1. The following day, DFF's newscasts were re-titled Aktuell ("Current"). East German television was reduced to one channel, after DFF1 folded, its transmitters becoming part of the Erstes Deutsches Fernsehen (now Das Erste) network.

On 1 January 1992 at 0:00 (midnight), the former DFF2 was regionalised and incorporated into the ARD as the regional channel ("Dritte Programme" – "Third programme") for the "New Länder" under the names of Mitteldeutscher Rundfunk Fernsehen (Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Thuringia), ORB-Fernsehen (Brandenburg, later merged with Sender Freies Berlin to form Rundfunk Berlin-Brandenburg on 1 May 2003) and N3 (Mecklenburg-Vorpommern).

In October 1999, the AK news broadcasts were re-run on a daily basis to mark 10 years to the events leading to the fall of the Berlin Wall and German reunification. The news programs were broadcast one a day, corresponding to their original broadcast date a decade earlier. The rebroadcasts provided a daily contrast between the reunited Germany of 1999 and the last months of the DDR in 1989 by giving a daily window into the past.

In popular culture
The 2003 film Good Bye, Lenin!, about a woman who falls into a coma before the Berlin Wall comes down and does not emerge until several months hence, features Aktuelle Kamera as a plot point. The film deals with how her children create a "DDR in her bedroom", doing such things as putting food in old jars, wearing old clothes – and showing AK tapes heavily. One of the first things protagonist Alex's friend Denis does is get tapes of old East German shows: "about 30 Aktuelle Kamera, 11 Der schwarze Kanal, six of Ein Kessel Buntes (shown in subtitles as "that variety show you mentioned"), and three or four of Everyday Life in the West." When Alex said that his mother would notice that the news was old, his friend replied that "they're all the same old crap, anyway." Denis, an amateur filmmaker, even goes as far to produce fake newscasts that say that West Germans were streaming into the DDR to avoid neo-Nazi groups and unemployment, not the other way round.

Hosts
Aktuelle Kamera's principal presenters from 1952 to 1990:

 * Herbert Köfer
 * Klaus Feldmann
 * Elisabeth Süncksen
 * Hans-Dieter Lange
 * Angelika Unterlauf
 * Wolfgang Meyer
 * Wolfgang Lippe
 * Matthias Schliesing
 * Renate Krawielicki
 * Anne-Rose Neumann
 * Peter Kessel
 * Christel Kern
 * Klaus Ackermann
 * Heidrun Schulz

title: Aktuelle Kamera


text:
Picea engelmannii

Picea engelmannii, with the common names Engelmann spruce, white spruce, mountain spruce, and silver spruce, is a species of spruce native to western North America. It is mostly a high-elevation mountain tree but also appears in watered canyons.

Description
Picea engelmannii is a medium-sized to large evergreen tree growing to 25-40 m tall, exceptionally to 65 m tall, and with a trunk diameter of up to 1.5 m. The reddish bark is thin and scaly, flaking off in small circular plates 5–10 cm across. The crown is narrow conic in young trees, becoming cylindric in older trees. The shoots are buff-brown to orange-brown, usually densely pubescent, and with prominent pulvini. The leaves are needle-like, 15–30 mm long, flexible, rhombic in cross-section, glaucous blue-green above with several thin lines of stomata, and blue-white below with two broad bands of stomata. The needles have a pungent odour when crushed.

Purple cones of about 1 cm appear in spring, releasing yellow pollen when windy. The cones are pendulous, slender cylindrical, 2.5 – long and 1.5 cm broad when closed, opening to 3 cm broad. They have thin, flexible scales 1.5 – long, with a wavy margin. They are reddish to dark purple, maturing to light brown 4–7 months after pollination. The seeds are black, 2 – long, with a slender, 5 – long light brown wing.

The tree grows in a krummholz form along the fringe of alpine tundras.

Distribution
Engelmann spruce is native to western North America, primarily in the Rocky Mountains and east slopes of the Cascade Range from central British Columbia to Southern Oregon in the Cascades and commonly in Montana, Idaho, and Colorado, and more sparsely towards Arizona and New Mexico in the Sky islands; there are also two isolated populations in Northern Mexico. It is mostly a high-elevation mountain tree, in many areas reaching the tree line, but at lower elevations occupies cool watered canyons. It grows from 520-3650 m above sea level, rarely lower towards the northwest. It appears in the canyons of the Idaho Panhandle and more limitedly in the northeastern Olympic Mountains; the latter includes exceptionally large specimens, e.g. one 2.1 m thick and 179 ft tall. It can be found in the Cascade Range (mostly on the eastern slopes) from elevations of 900-1800 m and liberally in the Rocky Mountains. It can also be found in the Monashee and Selkirk Mountains, as well as the highlands surrounding the Interior Plateau.

Ecology
Both water uptake and water stored in roots appear to be critical for the survival of subalpine Engelmann spruce saplings that are exposed above the snowpack in later winter to early spring. Transpiration is greatly reduced in small saplings while engulfed in snowpack. For exposed trees, the availability of soil water may be critical in late winter, when transpirational demands increase. Increased rates of transpiration in response to loss of snowpack, coupled with low sapwood water reserves and an extended period of soil frost in windswept areas, may prevent Engelmann spruce from regenerating in open areas both above and below the tree line. Cuticular damage by windblown ice is probably more important at the tree line, but damage caused by desiccation is likely to be more important at lower elevations.

Despite wind damage, the species tends to grow taller than others at the tree line. It is shade tolerant, but not so much as subalpine fir. Thus, it is somewhat dependent on fires to outgrow competitors, although its thin bark and shallow roots make it vulnerable to fire as well. Spruce bark beetles attack the tree, being particularly deadly to groups which have stood for centuries. It is also susceptible to avalanches.

Although older spruce forests are not very useful to animals for forage, they are so in the aftermath of fires, which allow many other plants to rise. Engelmann spruce-shaded streams are exploited by trout. Additionally, aphids produce galls which hang from the tree and look similar to cones when they dry out.

Subspecies and hybrids
Two geographical subspecies (treated as varieties by some authors, and as distinct species by others) occur:
 * Picea engelmannii subsp. engelmannii (Engelmann spruce). All of the range except as below.
 * Picea engelmannii subsp. mexicana (Mexican spruce). Two isolated populations on high mountains in northern Mexico, on the Sierra del Carmen in Coahuila (Sierra Madre Oriental) and on Cerro Mohinora in Chihuahua (Sierra Madre Occidental). Engelmann spruces of the Madrean sky islands mountains in the extreme southeast of Arizona and southwest of New Mexico also probably belong to this subspecies, though this is disputed.

The Engelmann spruce hybridises and intergrades extensively with the closely related white spruce (Picea glauca), found further north and east in the Rockies, and to a lesser extent with the closely related Sitka spruce where they meet on the western fringes of the Cascades.

Uses
Native Americans made various medicines from the resin and foliage.

Engelmann spruce is of economic importance for its wood, being light and fairly strong. It is harvested for paper-making and general construction. Wood from slow-grown trees at high elevation has a specialized use in making musical instruments such as acoustic guitars, harps, violins, and pianos. Because it is odourless and has little resin, it has been used for food containers such as barrels. It is also used to a small extent as a Christmas tree.

title: Picea engelmannii


text: User talk:130.191.207.48

title: User talk:130.191.207.48


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nick Hamilton

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was keep. Joyous 23:08, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

Nick Hamilton
Does being a pro-wrestling referee make one worthy of inclusion on Wikipedia? Nick Hamilton returns 347 hits on google. GRider\talk 01:01, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)~
 * Delete. He's a ref, not one of the entertainers.  (Granted, I don't watch the stuff, but it doesn't seem to me that he actually is part of the show.) – Beginning 02:20, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, under the bar of notability for me. Megan1967 05:27, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. A referee is just as much part of the match as the wrestlers themselfs, would you delete football referees just because they dont score goals? plus he is not just a referee, he is the senior offical of SmackDown! and has worked with the top promotions in North America. deleting this would be the same as deleting Earl Hebner, and thats just not right. Paulley 12:59, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, agree with above user. Grue 17:58, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Way above the bar of notability for me. Xezbeth  18:01, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Remember that in pro wrestling, "referees" are performers too.   — Gwalla | Talk 23:30, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Agree with Paulley and Gwalla.  —RaD Man (talk) 02:25, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, widely seen professional entertainer. Kappa 08:40, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. ComCat 02:16, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - David Gerard 15:07, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, wrestling cruft. JamesBurns 06:26, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Alexander Ovechkin

701 goals
Update :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.162.15.141 (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Ovechkin weight? 218 is old!
Ovechkin's weight keeps getting changed. I think the source of the problem is that the IIHF has the wrong weight, since I doubt very much that the IIHF is weighing the players themselves. The weight they use is likely out-of-date regardless of when they publish it. His 218 weight is before he bulked up. Any other opinions? BashBrannigan (talk) 01:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I doubt, that he could reduce by 7 kg too, but I doubt more, that the International Ice Hockey Federation uses every year the old information of the Ovechkin's weight. I have the opinion, that he is weighed in the NHL with a hockey kit. Der russische Patriot (talk) 16:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

 * The chronology of the Ovechkin's weight on the IIHF-site since 2006:
 * 15 May 2006 — 90 kg
 * 12 May 2007 — 103 kg
 * 9 May 2008 — 99 kg
 * 16 May 2010 — 99 kg. Der russische Patriot (talk) 17:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The Caps 2010 playoff media guide lists Ovechkin's weight as 233. here on page 45--Mo Rock...Monstrous (talk) 00:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Ovechkin only plays a few games in IIHF tournaments, so his NHL stats should take preference. BashBrannigan (talk) 00:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Varlamov and Semin have the bigger Weight in NHL too. Compare: SEMYON VARLAMOV: NHL - Wt.: 209, IIHF - 194, ALEXANDER SEMIN: NHL - Wt.: 208, IIHF - 205. How often are players weighed in NHL? Der russische Patriot (talk) 12:27, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know how often they are weighed since a Google search turned up more about Doug Weight than the NHL weighing processes. However, I agree with BashBrannigan (talk) that the NHL number should take precedent being that he is most notably an NHL player. Are there more references that say Ovechkin in 218 besides the one you mention? I know of four that list him at the 233 (the media guide I mentioned before, Hockey DB, NHL.com and Hockey Reference.com) I also feel we should go with the majority.

As a general note: the edit warring over his bloody weight needs to stop. I will be handing out blocks if it continues. Resolute 21:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Resolute, keep in mind that several editors reverted his weight to 233, but only one keeps changing it to 218. I ceased early on in changing it to 233 to avoid an edit war, but have tried to have it discussed here for a consensus. Also, while weight isn't usually a significant issue, in Ovechkin's case it "carries more weight", if you'll excuse the pun. His weight gain, mostly muscle, was much talked about in the last few years as he's become one of the strongest, if not THE strongest forward in the league. BashBrannigan (talk) 21:43, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I warned two editors directly who were bordering on 3RR. This was just an additional general warning.  Ultimately, I'd say we just need to pick one number for now and wait until training camp.  The Caps will ultimately update their roster page with each player's weigh-ins at that time. Resolute 22:03, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

For those warring, I have read and heard numerous times that hockey players lose between 5-10 pounds during a game. So its quite possible that he was 7KG different from his start of season weight and his IIHF weight. That being said, standard is that we go by the weight from the league website of the league a player is in as being considered the most "accurate" to avoid this squabbles. -DJSasso (talk) 11:52, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from TChalk945, 19 October 2010
I am required for a class to make a change or addition to Wikipedia. I am a huge Washington Capitals fan, and a big fan of Ovechkin. I would just like to include his stats during the 2010 Winter Olympics in the International Play category. I will get my Information from this source:  thank you.

TChalk945 (talk) 19:14, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Hello, and thanks for your interest. If you look closely, those statistics are already there, so I'm not sure what you are requesting Forseti11 (talk) 16:12, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

 * "TChalk945," it appears to me that you satisfied your assignment: You made a change to Wikipedia when you posted your comment on this page! 1995hoo (talk) 19:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Comments
Nice second photo. His ex-girlfriend must have posted that one... — Preceding unsigned comment added by CEKC (talk • contribs) 07:28, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Ovechkin website?
Does anyone know how to verify if www.ovie8.com is really Ovechkin's own website. He seems to have a twitter account which lists this website. But what makes me suspicious is that the ovie8.com doesn't have any personal commentary by Ovechkin the way most personal website would. If it's not his own website it should not be in the infobox. BashBrannigan (talk)
 * The website appears to be maintained by IMG, which is the company that represents Ovechkin. Resolute 01:59, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that seems to make sense. BashBrannigan (talk) 01:16, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 30 December 2011
Citation needed can be replaced with this information: http://capitals.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=462124

Jspoke (talk) 00:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)Julie Spokus

Jspoke (talk) 00:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * ❌ Please request edits to protected pages only when you've specified what exact text needs to be replaced, what the exact replacement is, and why the change needs to be made. -- Bryce  ( talk  |  contribs ) 01:12, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

✅ found what the request was referring to and added provided reference. Cheers. --Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 16:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 January 2013
Ovechkin is now playing Right Wing.Hefd (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)HefD

Hefd (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Changed, thanks for the notice. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism
Some of the information on this page was vandalized (weight and height both altered to intended joke values as was his draft pick). Changing information to published values. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drailing55 (talk • contribs) 01:48, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 18 February 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Opinion and evidence is divided on whether Alex is a true common name in reliable sources. Several suggest retaining the existing name, while others suggest a move. I don't see an overwhelming consensus one way or the other to be honest, after two listing periods. — Amakuru (talk) 15:20, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Alexander Ovechkin → Alex Ovechkin – As per the discussion began below. Alex is the player's more commonly used name, see the player profiles linked below from the English language sources. WP:COMMONNAME. --Relisted. — Amakuru (talk) 21:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC)  G  loss  17:45, 18 February 2015 (UTC) Is there a long standing consensus on why this article uses "Alexander" as the title instead of "Alex"? Seems pretty clear that he's used "Alex" for years now, that's the name on all of his biographies and stat pages and every news article about him says his more common name, Alex.  G loss  21:20, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Not to be a wiseass, but you realize 3 of the 5 stat pages on this article all use Alexander right? I haven't done an extensive search but doing a quick google search it seems to come up 50/50. Though it is hard to be sure because Google includes Alexander results in when you search just for Alex. But the Alex total is roughly twice what the Alexander total is which would indicate its about half and half. That being said if its so close I would default to their full name. There is a discussion in the archive of this talk page about it. Not an extensive one by any means but it did seem to result in the decision to use Alexander. Granted it was 5 years ago. -DJSasso (talk) 15:40, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Right, I did look at the discussion but it was very short and like you said, 5 years ago. 3 of the 5 stat pages on this article doesn't really sell it to me, because we could rack up tons of more stat pages if we really wanted, this article just has 5 listed. But the fact that the NHL's calls him "Alex" and every article on the Capital's website refers to him as "Alex", I just feel like per our Common Name policy, the article should use Alex instead.
 * Alex Ovechkin at hockeyreference.com
 * Alex Oveckin at ESPN.com
 * Alex Ovechkin at Yahoo.com
 * Alex Ovechkin on NBC's Rotoworld
 * Alex Ovechkin at SBNation.com
 * Alex Ovechkin at CBSSports.com
 * He uses "Alex" even on his personal twitter
 * My point is just that the 5 links provided on this article don't mean much when you look at all of his other profiles online and they're all listed this way. I could also list the extensive number of articles about him that all use Alex, but a google search will lead anyone who wants to check those out to them.  G loss  16:33, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * My quick summary is that older references from European websites use Alexander, while newer references from North America use Alex. 65.95.104.173 (talk) 18:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what it looks like. Being in his 10th year playing in a North American hockey league which of course is where he's gained immense popularity for his game, I feel Alex makes more sense as his common name. I probably don't need to keep repeating that though :)  G loss  19:08, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Personally I would give it a few more years because we don't go based on recentism, we have to take the sum of all sources despite their age. And it appears in my analysis that they are about 50/50 right now. In a few years that might not be the case if the trend you mention continues. Either way both names end up here so readers will not be lost. -DJSasso (talk) 13:44, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * IMO, I think part of the hangup might be that Russian players don't typically shorten their names like North Americans do. Most others stick with Alexander/Aleksander, so mentally, it is easier to stick with Alexander. From my perspective, it feels right to stick with Alexander, even as I have no issue with the shortened form for Alex Galchenyuk, because he is American.   That being said, both his nhl.com profile and the Capitals media guide goes by Alex, so it is very hard to argue that this is not his common name in English. Resolute 15:15, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Right, that's what I'm getting at here. I'm absolutely not trying to be difficult, and I do understand where you're coming from Djsasso, but I find it very hard to ignore the common name policy. "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." As mentioned above, the English-language sources all go by the shortened Alex. So my concern isn't that readers won't be able to find the article, because of course they will with the proper redirects existing, it's just that this article doesn't follow our article titles policy.  G loss  17:39, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, for what it's worth, the articles for Slava Fetisov and Slava Kozlov both use their full name, even though you rarely heard either of them called Vyacheslav once they became household names via ESPN's Gary Thorne and Bill Clement (and others) while playing on the Red Army Line. Why not leave it as is and just put 'Alex' (with the quotation marks) in the boldfaced portion of his name in the lead?Ryecatcher773 (talk) 07:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * support WP:UCN/WP:UE that's his common name (or his nickname, Ové ) -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 05:30, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Support as nominator - WP:COMMONNAME exists for situations like this. Alexander Ovechkin will still redirect here, but as illustrated by the links above, Alex is much more commonly used.  G loss  06:32, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2018
The last bullet under the "NHL" subsection of the "Awards and Achievements" section uses incorrect grammar. The phrase currently reads: "Scored his 4th career Game 7 goal on 23 May 2018, handing Tampa Bay Lightning there first Game 7 loss at home in its 25-year history..." This phrase should be corrected to: "Scored his 4th career Game 7 goal on 23 May 2018, handing the Tampa Bay Lightning their first Game 7 loss at home in the franchise's 25-year history..." Jonsoff (talk) 19:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 20:02, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2018
Please change "Stanley Cup Finals" to "Stanley Cup Final" (no "s"). Thank you. Curatedlanguage (talk) 00:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * ❌ per this discussion there is consensus against no S. For more information, check out Talk:Stanley Cup Finals. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 02:04, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:24, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2018
Change "Las Vegas Golden Knights" in Stanley Cup Section to "Vegas Golden Knights" ; Las is not in the team name 108.219.247.89 (talk) 10:46, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:24, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2018
Error in "Player Profile" section, second to last sentence starts with "After after", change to "After".

Error in section "Stanley Cup Finals", second to last sentence says 17-year career, should be 13 as only his NHL time counts in this case. Should not include his time in the KHL Canellac (talk) 14:05, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: first request is done but I counld'nt find a place that said 17-year career. L293D (☎ • ✎) 15:25, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2018
Second to last paragraph in "Off the ice" section should the following text be appended: "On June 7, 2018, in an interview after winning his first Stanley Cup, it was made public that Ovechkin and his wife are expecting their first child." Canellac (talk) 14:11, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 15:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Player profile (removed)

 * Finally winning a Stanley Cup, age, and experience may be tempering Ovechkin's intense self-focus. In an October 22, 2018 game against the Vancouver Canucks he passed on the easy chance to score a hat trick. Getting the puck late in the third period after Vancouver had pulled their goalie from the net, "instead of letting a shot rip" he passed to teammate T. J. Oshie. "To me that's a huge thing. . . He could have easily scored himself but it wasn't even a thought," head coach Todd Reirden said. "It doesn't bother him one bit and that's where you saw maybe a different player than maybe you saw three or four years ago that's not focused on individual stuff," he added. When even Oshie questioned his move, Ovechkin's response was charitable: "[He said] 'Why you pass me the puck?' But he was so wide open and I try to give him pass. Save mine for next time."
 * Perhaps a shorter version.Artaxerxes 12:54, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The quote at the end by Ovechkin himself isn't necessary at all. It also needs general copyediting. And also, if something may be anything, I'm on the fence about if it should even be there. The only thing that has me half-convinced is Reirden's quote.  danny music editor  oops 18:03, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * How head coach Todd Reirden praised Ovechkin for "his leadership" on passing on his chance for a hat trick:
 * ""He could have easily got in the red and tried to score himself and it wasn’t even a thought,” Reirden said. “He passed right to Osh and Osh couldn’t go back to him and that’s the way it worked out. It doesn’t bother him one bit and I think that’s where you see a different player than maybe you saw three or four years ago that is not focused on individual stuff. He’s doing the right thing and he feels if you do the right thing for long enough, you’re going to get rewarded. We were benefactors of that last season with being able to win out at the end. He’s really got a lot of buy-in right now for doing the right thing. I think his leadership is really in the last probably year, year and a half has really gone to a new level.""

 * (outdent) I do applaud your efforts to adding to the article, but I feel it is getting bloated with extraneous things like the above, as well as a lot of detail you added regarding the Cup win. I'm hoping to go through it soon and kind of trim the whole article down a bit, if only to clean up the wording throughout. I pinged you just to let you know that, as well as solicit any further info you want to add, and let you know that your efforts are appreciated, though do consider recency bias. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:51, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the appreciation, and for the focus on the new material. Much can be improved with further editing. (Footnotes might be used for some of the details.)Artaxerxes 15:19, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Stanley Cup
Barry Trotz Moscow meeting with Ovechkin removed here:

 * In September 2017, after the summer wedding (where he danced shirtless), but before his honeymoon, coach and captain had a heart-to-heart in Moscow (where Trotz was visiting his son). The coach reminded the team captain that the 2017-18 Capitals would be less experienced and talented than in recent years. The Capitals simply could not afford another "lackluster" season from their Russian star like the previous one. Trotz recalls telling Ovechkin:

Artaxerxes 15:19, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * "The game’s changing, and a lot of people think your game is not going to translate and you can’t do anything anymore because you’re getting older. The game’s getting quicker; it’s a young man’s league, and you’re getting older. Just as a coach and just as a friend, knowing this game, how you’re going to have continued success is you’re going to have to become more of an athlete."

Early life
He certainly merits an early life/history section -- as other players of his stature have in their pages (SEE: Sidney Crosby, Wayne Gretsky, etc.)--Artaxerxes 16:05, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I think "early life" is under "Personal and family" HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 21:08, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Goal-scoring record
"Alex Ovechkin is putting Wayne Gretzky’s untouchable goal-scoring record within reach" Artaxerxes 22:07, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Hat tricks
NHL active hat trick leader with 22; Malkin with 12; Crosby with 11 (as of 12.17.18). Back-to-back hat tricks:
 * "becomes just the 14th NHL player to record hat tricks in consecutive games more than once in his career."
 * "also performed the feat in October 2017."
 * "first new member of that elite club since Alex Kovalev, who had back-to-back hat tricks twice in 2001." Artaxerxes 16:54, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Variety of English
The article doesn't seem to consistently use one national variety of English as advised by MOS:ARTCON. I think it should use American English since his ties there are the strongest of any English-speaking nation.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:20, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no issue with that, so long as one system is used consistently. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:28, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

One of the Greatest Ice Hockey Players of all time.
I have no idea who keeps undoing my edit claiming he is one of the greatest ice hockey players of all time but in the most respectful way you are on crack if you think otherwise. He is a 3x MVP (more than crosby just saying) 3x ted lindsay award winner, a 12 time all star, a 9x maurice rocket award winner, a champion and mvp of the finals and is on pace to not only become the all time scorer but close to breaking numerous other scoring records as well. Go ahead he is not one of the greatest hockey players of all time STOP undoing the edit. MrHindsight (talk) 02:00, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

 * In 2017. the NHL named the 100 greatest players since 1917, with Ovechkin among them. Since then, he's added achievements and records. There's little doubt he's in the top 10 greats in history, and not just for scoring, as this NHL essay discusses. So for the lede, I think the article is understating Ovechkin if it doesn't say he is one of the greatest of all time. Zefr (talk) 04:47, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Correct and keep in mind that a year later he won a stanley cup, a conn smythe award, another 50 goal season and set a few records between now and then. I'm not arguing a top 10 I just want his wiki to acknowledge the fact that he is one of the greatest ice hockey players of all time. MrHindsight (talk) 05:45, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * It already says he was named one of the 100 Greatest NHL Players of all time in the third paragraph. You can move that to the first paragraph if you want.--Killashaw (talk) 00:24, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

All of these statistics are already mentioned in that section of the article. I don't know myself whether it is truly necessary to mention that he is widely regarded as one of the all-time greatest players in general, but keep in mind, Wikipedia prefers to let things speak for themselves. All of those things you mention are truly impressive, but readers can draw their own conclusions from all of that information. It's not Wikipedia's place to "understate" or "overstate", it can only comment on what has happened and can be objectively proven. Please keep in mind that while Wikipedia does strive to be respectful towards the persons it describes, Wikipedia does not owe anyone anything, so it does not owe Ovechkin any sort of description as one of the all-time greatest in general. If consensus sees fit to include this bit, great, but if not, please do not interpret it as being disrespectful of him or his legacy. I myself have no real opinion on the matter, but I can see this is a touchy subject for some folks. Perhaps we can explore an alternative like our friend Killashaw mentioned, or even something else? Zeke, the Mad Horrorist  (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 21:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

"Player profile" section and block quotes
It seems like the "player profile" section is being swallowed up by a string of block quotes from other players and coaches. Is this really necessary or appropriate? It seems like it significantly interrupts the flow of the article's text. 1995hoo (talk) 21:03, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. There are too many of them, they need some context and only one of them is long enough to meet MOS:BLOCKQUOTE.--Killashaw (talk) 18:31, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the MOS link. It confirms that block quotes should not be set in quotation marks (other than internal ones midstream, of course), which had been my gut feeling based on most style guides. I note several of the ones in question are set that way. If I have time I may clean those few up, but it will be this weekend at the earliest before I do anything about the larger issue involving the string of these things (unless someone else revises it first). One reason I wanted to raise it here is, frankly, that my observation has been that the editor who added them seems to take umbrage at having edits removed such that I wanted to throw the issue out there for discussion first (in the nature of CYA, I suppose, though not quite the same concept). 1995hoo (talk) 19:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I've sought help with this matter at Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey. 1995hoo (talk) 12:42, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

"some consider" language re goals record
"some consider" seems a bit too cautious and outdated, no? He's at 822 goals, 72 back. The narrative has rapidly shifted from if to when. Inspector Semenych (talk) 17:56, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

 * You make a good point, plus words like "some" are generally deprecated per MOS:WEASEL. The word "widely" earlier in the sentence accomplishes the same thing, so I rewrote the sentence to make the same point without the "some." 1995hoo (talk) 19:44, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alexander Ovechkin


text:
Gusii

Gusii or Kisii may refer to:
 * Gusii people, a tribal people of Kenya
 * Gusii language, their Bantu language

title: Gusii


text: User talk:81.152.43.45

title: User talk:81.152.43.45


text:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/RK 2/Proposed decision

all proposed

Arbitrators should vote for or against each point or abstain.
 * Only items that receive a majority aye vote will be enacted.
 * Items that receive a majority nay vote will be formally rejected.
 * Items that do not receive a majority aye or nay vote will be open to possible amendment by any Arbitrator if he so chooses. After the amendment process is complete, the item will be voted on one last time.

Conditional votes for or against and abstentions should be explained by the Arbitrator before or after his/her time-stamped signature. For example, an Arbitrator can state that she/he would only favor a particular remedy based on whether or not another remedy/remedies were enacted.

On this case, 2 arbitrators are recused and 1 is inactive, so 5 votes are a majority.

Proposed wording to be modified by Arbitrators and then voted on.
 * For all items:

Motions and requests by the parties
Place those on the discussion page.

Proposed temporary injunctions
Four net aye votes needed to pass (each nay vote subtracts an aye) 24 hours from the first vote is normally the fastest an injunction will be imposed.

Temporary staying of previously issued ban
Enacted 1) The one year ban against RK's editing of articles related to Judaism is suspended pending the completion of this case.

 * Aye:
 * I would like to see RK's current editing behaviour on these articles before determining whether the ban is warranted. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 01:11, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 01:37, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC) Worth a try.
 * Personally, I would be more interested in hearing what the other people who frequently edit those articles have to say. →Raul654 01:51, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 02:39, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delirium 02:44, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 05:02, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 08:21, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

=Proposed final decision=

Civility
1) Wikipedia users are expected to behave in a calm and mutally respective manner in their dealings with other users. When disputes arise, users are expected to use dispute resolution procedures instead of merely attacking each other.

 * Aye:
 * Previously passed wording of this principle. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:33, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 20:57, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 04:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

No personal attacks
2) No personal attacks.

 * Aye:
 * Previously passed wording of this principle. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:33, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 20:57, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 04:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Consensus
3) As put forward in Dispute resolution, Wikipedia works by building consensus. This is done through the use of polite discussion, in an attempt to develop a consensus regarding proper application of policies and guidelines, such as Neutral point of view. Surveys and requests for comment process are designed to assist consensus-building when normal talk page communication has not worked.

 * Aye:
 * Previously passed wording of this principle. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:33, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 20:57, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 04:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Previous personal attacks / incivility
1) Prior to the previous case against him, RK engaged in innumerable personal attacks and general incivil practices.

 * Aye:
 * This much is clear to me, or the previous committee would not have passed findings to this effect. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:38, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 20:57, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 04:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Changes in editing habits
2) RK has significantly improved his editing habits since the previous case against him, and after the four-month ban instituted by the previous case has edited articles seen by others to be contentious to him in a fashion consistent with the principles of civility and consensus.

 * Aye:
 * RK still may not be a model editor, but he certainly appears to be more calm and collected than he was before. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:38, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)
 * Concur with Grunt. Neutralitytalk 20:57, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 04:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) He's not perfect but has calmed down a lot.
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:
 * Looking through the evidence, I really want to split this up. He has significantly improved, but still manages far too much incivility (c.f. the Jayjg evidence) - David Gerard 21:02, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) as David - there is still far too much characterisation of others state of mind rather than addressing questions. The apparent lack of understanding of the reasons for the previous ban also concerns me.

2.1) RK has not significantly improved his editing habits since the previous case against him, and after the four-month ban instituted by the previous case has not edited articles seen by others to be contentious to him in a fashion consistent with the principles of civility and consensus.

 * Aye:

 * Nay:
 * RK still may not be a model editor, but he certainly appears to be more calm and collected than he was before. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:38, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)
 * Concur with Grunt. Neutralitytalk 20:57, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 04:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) As above.
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Abstain:
 * Looking through the evidence, I really want to split this up. He has significantly improved, but still manages far too much incivility (c.f. the Jayjg evidence) - David Gerard 21:02, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) see above

Personal attacks on mailing lists
3) RK has historically taken disputes on en: Wikipedia to the wikien-l mailing list, his mails about the disputes including accusations of anti-Semitism or Nazi sympathies.

 * Aye:
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) This is not talking about the last month.
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 23:35, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 01:25, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 11:01, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Previous ban
1) As RK has demonstrated improved editing habits, remedy #2 of the previous Arbitration case is hereby revoked.

 * Aye:
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 20:39, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 04:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Abstain:
 * Waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait! It's way, way too early to be making decisions like this at this point in time. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 15:50, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)
 * Agree with Grunt. →Raul654 16:46, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) I want to think further on this before giving it a solid 'aye'

1.1) As RK has not demonstrated improved editing habits, remedy #2 of the previous Arbitration case is reaffirmed.

 * Aye:
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) I would like to ammend this to "sufficiently improved"

 * Nay:
 * Read my opinion on the associated FoF above. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:39, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 20:57, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 04:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Abstain:
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) abstain on this and 1 as I don't think it's that clear-cut

1.2) As RK has demonstrated some improvement in editing habits, but not to the status of "model editor", remedy #2 of the previous Arbitration case is hereby revoked and replaced with the measures outlined below.

 * Aye:
 * If your concern is with saying outright that RK has reformed... -- Grunt 🇪🇺 15:34, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
 * I am happy with this wording Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:00, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 23:52, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 04:20, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) I don't see enough change to reverse the previous ruling - however - if 1.1 doesn't pass, I will agree to this
 * David Gerard 22:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Revert limitation
2) RK is limited to one revert per twenty-four hour period on articles material directly or indirectly related to Jews and/or Judaism for a period of three months, with violations treated as violations of the three-revert rule and also resetting the three-month period. Determing what is directly or indirectly related shall be left to the discretion of the administrators.

 * Aye:
 * If the ban is lifted, I would still like to see measures implemented to prevent RK from getting out of hand again. I view a one-revert limitation as an effective way to curb POV pushing which appears to have been a major issue in the last case. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:45, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)
 * Addendum: only if 1) or 1.2) passes and 2.1) and 2.2) do not pass. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 15:32, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 20:57, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 04:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) I've changed "articles" to "material". Also, this is only if not 2.1 or 2.2.
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) conditional on 1.1 not passing, 1 or 1.2 passing. Only if not 2.1 or 2.2

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

2.1) RK is limited to one revert per twenty-four hour period on material directly or indirectly related to Jews and/or Judaism for a period of six months, with violations treated as violations of the three-revert rule and also resetting the six-month period. Determing what is directly or indirectly related shall be left to the discretion of the administrators.

 * Aye:
 * David Gerard 21:46, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) If not 2.2.
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 01:30, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)
 * Addendum: only if 1) or 1.2) passes and and 2.2) does not pass. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 15:32, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 03:21, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 23:53, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) conditional on 1.1 not passing, 1 or 1.2 passing. Only if not 2.2

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

2.2) RK is limited to one revert per twenty-four hour period on material directly or indirectly related to Jews and/or Judaism for a period of twelve months, with violations treated as violations of the three-revert rule and also resetting the twelve-month period. Determing what is directly or indirectly related shall be left to the discretion of the administrators.

 * Aye:
 * David Gerard 21:46, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) This is the original period applied. Reverts are bad. Reverts to any previous version bad. Convincing other editors through discussion that your revert is good enough for them to apply is good.
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 01:30, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)
 * Addendum: only if 1) or 1.2) passes. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 15:32, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 03:21, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Nohat 06:45, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 23:53, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) conditional on 1.1 not passing, 1 or 1.2 passing. First choice in this section.

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Personal attack parole
3) RK is placed on standard personal attack parole for three months. If he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be personal attacks, then he shall be temp-banned for a short time of up to one week, and the three month period shall be reset.

 * Aye:
 * If the ban is lifted, I would still like to see measures implemented to prevent RK from getting out of hand again. Personal attack paroles like the one above are, I view, an effective way to squish potential personal attack behaviour. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:45, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)
 * Addendum: only if 1) or 1.2) passes and and 3.1) and 3.2) do not pass. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 15:32, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 20:57, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 04:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) - only if not 3.1 or 3.2
 * I should note also that this is intended to be a very short leash. At admin discretion is the normal criterion. To be safe, RK should IMO stick strictly to discussion of the article content and references, and take care not to attribute any descriptions to other editors whatsoever - David Gerard 21:02, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC) too short. We are replacing a year long ban of certain articles, our replacements should therefore also be a year long.
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) agree with Theresa

 * Abstain:

3.1) RK is placed on standard personal attack parole for six months. If he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be personal attacks, then he shall be temp-banned for a short time of up to one week, and the six month period shall be reset.

 * Aye:
 * David Gerard 23:34, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) - if not 3.2
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 01:34, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)
 * Addendum: only if 1) or 1.2) passes and and 3.2) does not pass. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 15:32, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 11:02, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 03:19, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Nohat 06:44, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC) only if 3.2 does not pass
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) only if 3.2 does not pass

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

3.2) RK is placed on standard personal attack parole for twelve months. If he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be personal attacks, then he shall be temp-banned for a short time of up to one week, and the twelve month period shall be reset.

 * Aye:
 * David Gerard 23:34, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) - preferred
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 01:34, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)
 * Addendum: only if 1) or 1.2) passes. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 15:32, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 11:02, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 03:19, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Nohat 06:44, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC) (prefer this length)
 * sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) First choice in this section.

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Personal attacks on Wikimedia mailing lists
4) The personal attack parole shall include posts to Wikimedia mailing lists, such as wikien-l, carrying on disputes on Wikipedia. If he makes any posts which are judged by a mailing list administrator an en: Wikipedia administrator to be personal attacks - including but not limited to accusations of anti-Semitism or Nazi sympathy - he may be temp-banned for up to a week under the provisions of the personal attack parole, he may be suspended for up to a week from the mailing list in question, and the three month personal attack period shall be reset.

 * Aye:
 * David Gerard 16:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) Who does the judging may need some work. Note the "may" in there - we're not ordering anyone running the lists to do anything. I am an admin on wikien-l and we've tended to apply a very light hand to blocking the obnoxious, but personal attacks would be a good reason. Feel free to fiddle with the wording to get the point across that expanding the dispute to the mailing list is unacceptable.
 * I've changed the wording to match whatever period is decided in 3. - David Gerard 23:34, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Nohat 21:56, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 11:02, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 03:19, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 20:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Only if the personal attack period applies, of course. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 15:32, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:
 * Nohat 20:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) (for now). Are there enough mailing list admins to implement this effectively?
 * I'm one, if it doesn't risk crossing the streams (which would of course be bad). But I've changed it to read "an en: Wikipedia administrator", of which there are plenty on wikien-l - David Gerard 21:02, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not really happy with the idea of connecting behaviour on the mailing lists to bans on the wiki - any more than I would with a similar connection to another project or language version. In my opinion, this is a matter for the mailing list community and administrators to decide sannse (talk) 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Template
1) {text of proposed enforcement}

 * Aye:

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

=Discussion by Arbitrators=

General
RK honestly doesn't see any problem, others do and have provided substantial evidence. That makes this a tricky one. But we've fairly consistently held that accusations of anti-Semitism or of Nazi sympathy without damn good substantiation constitute personal attacks, for instance - David Gerard 16:48, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Motion to close
Four net Aye votes needed to close case (each Nay vote subtracts an Aye) 24 hours from the first motion is normally the fastest a case will close.

 * Raul hasn't voted (significanty) on this case, and has declared himself away, which means that there is a majority of five required. The remedies appear to have met this threshold and I move to close. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 16:24, 2005 Apr 3 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Neutralitytalk 17:30, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * Aye (by 16:24, 2005 Apr 4) - David Gerard 22:47, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed - all is clear now sannse (talk) 23:03, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) (vote valid at 16:24, 2005 Apr 4)
 * Aye ➥the Epopt 17:58, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)