text:
Talk:Polo shirt

buttons
Some polo shirts have 3 buttons or even 2 in Marks and Spencers--Snow storm in Eastern Asia (talk) 13:24, 4 June 2010 (UTC).

I've seen this to.--Reatostly (talk) 09:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

3.Trish pt7 (talk) (talk) 18:46, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Number of Buttons
I have yet to see a Polo Shirt with 2 buttons, most of the ones I have ever seen have 3 or 4 buttons-User:GeorgeFormby1 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 09:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm wearing one now :) 68.226.137.18 04:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm also wearing a two button Polo Shirt at the moment. However, I do think this shirt is one of the most recent ones I bought. Jon (talk) 22:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Mine has 5, chavs!--Sarurahn (talk) 19:11, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Mine has 3.Trish pt7 (talk) (talk) 19:10, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Buttoned to the Top
Who decided that polo shirts are to be buttoned to the top? Almost no one does.

Polo or Tennis?
I think this page should be titled "Polo Shirt". Not only do I believe that to be the more common name (althought I don't know for sure -  no polls have been done), it is also the name that most refers to the type of shirt and least to the type of sport. People might wear a tennis shirt for tennis, a golf shirt for golf, but few people, unless they own a horse and are members of the British Royal family, would wear a polo shirt for polo, or associate the style of shirt particularly with polo. Also, Carson Kressley, in Off the Cuff, states that a golf shirt is different from a polo shirt (although only slightly - and I am aware that a statement by Carson Kressley is not the be-all and end-all judgement on the matter.) - Matthew238 07:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree; the generic term (at least in the US) is "Polo Shirt" Joncnunn 21:11, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Depends who you are and where you are. Lots of people call it a "tennis shirt" (both in the US and elsewhere), which is its original designation and purpose. There's a redirect anyway, so if someone puts in "polo shirt" they'll find what they're looking for. I say leave it be. 65.28.2.172 22:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I challenge the notion that Tennis was the original purpose of the shirt. In unrelated fashion research I have come across references to "polo shirts," some with illustrations and photos that leave no doubt that we are talking about the same garment, from the 1910s and 1920s, before Rene Lacoste changes the typical tennis uniform.  I don't know a lot about this topic, but it is pretty clear that the style at least (can't sat the fabric) existed and was called "polo" prior to 1933. TheCormac (talk) 03:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

 * In California, everyone calls them "polo shirts" in my experience. I've just checked two dictionaries of American English (American Heritage 4th ed. and WordNet) and FWIW both have an entry for "polo shirt" but no entry for "tennis shirt". I'd call this evidence that "polo shirt" is the vernacular form, at least in the USA. hajhouse 20:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I have heard people use both terms interchangeably. Once again, though, there's a redirect as it is, and the article makes the whole story very clear. Let it be. 65.28.2.172 21:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

ive never heard of tennis shirts only polo shirts. Dappled Sage 23:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Polo shirt is by far a more widely used term - a simple Google search of "polo shirt" vs "tennis shirt" shows 1.5 million matches vs just 120 000. The article really should be renamed. Uuuppp 15:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I would support a move to polo shirt too. Anyone feel like proposing an RM? Cheers, DWaterson 01:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

 * In the UK it is called a polo shirt too - one of the rare instances where there's a debate over the name and there are people on both sides of the Atlantic arguing for the same name. Blankfrackis (talk) 23:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

"Polo" may have supplanted "tennis" in recent years but it makes more sense to use the original since "polo shirt" is really just a genericized trademark. If we've got a non-commercial, widely recognized term, like "tennis shirt," I say that should be the one we use. Also, the introduction says it was formerly known as a tennis shirt. The term's still very much in use, and the author of that statement seems to imply there's some recognized authority that decides what to call things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.226.18.227 (talk) 20:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

It's 'Polo' or airtex in the UK.--Snow storm in Eastern Asia (talk) 13:26, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Source needed for style
A source is definately needed for this; particularly since the temperature would be a natural factor in how many (if any) too button while outside when this isn't worn as a uniform. Jon 20:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

separate article for polo shirt needed
who calls it a tennis shirt ??
 * Lots of people do. Lacoste does. I do. Most of my friends do. It's the original name. Leave this be. 65.28.9.8 06:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

they are two different things

 * I'm sorry but I find that to be preposterous. The two terms are simply interchangable names for the same piece of clothing. I do agree however, with the above points to rename this article "Polo Shirt." In my experience this is the more common name and is used far more in modern Western vernacular. -Poj21
 * I disagree. The shirts were originally designed by renowned tennis player Rene Lacoste for tennis. Only years later after Ralph Lipshitz put a horse and polo player on his tennis shirts did people start calling them "polo shirts." To this day, Lacoste still calls them tennis shirts. Considering that there's a redirect, this page is appropriately named. 65.28.2.218 02:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * who is ralph lipshitz? i changed it to a link yet nothing.... Dappled Sage 23:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You might know him as Ralph Lauren. 69.125.62.245 07:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not accurate. Polo shirts were called polo shirts long before Ralph Lauren.  Polo shirts are seen and described as such in numerous fashion advertisements in magazines and newspapers for decades before the first one marketed by Ralph Lauren's Polo brand in 1972.  (Indeed they are seen in advertisements before Rene Lacoste began marketing his in 1933, contrary to this article's assertions.)  Lauren's Polo brand started in 1967 making ties; its now famous logo is actually a symbol of the island of Brioni which had been reproduced on a scarf that Lauren had bought sometime after his company was named and launched.  Lauren first used it commercially on the sleeves of shirts in a woman's wear line before he later used it (in a clever and/or lucky piece of marketing) on the chest of polo shirts. TheCormac (talk) 03:49, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I went to Tysons Corner Mall in the DC Metro area today to test this theory and went to five stores that sell this kind of shirt ( I was shopping for them anyway). When asking if they had tennis shirts, not one of the sales people knew what I was talking about. Upon pointing to one on the rack and saying "Oh, I see them there", the general response was "oh, you mean polos".  Case closed. I have never in 36 years heard anyone call this a "tennis shirt". Not while originally wearing them in the 80's, nor anytime since. I am not a 'tennis person' though. I suspect this is a effort by tennis players and fans to try and claim some sort of ownership of this currently popular style and usurp the common name to suit their own bias. Ask anyone who is NOT a tennis person what kind of shirt this is (probably 95% of the world) and you will be told "polo shirt".

 * I tried it out at J. Press, Paul Stuart, and Brooks in NYC, and all three responded to "tennis shirt" just fine. Besides, Wikipedia articles never should be based on personal research. Whatever your or my personal research may or may not have uncovered is wholly invalid for Wikipedia purposes. Typing in "polo shirt" links immediately to this article. As such, there is no difficulty linking to or finding this article by using the term "polo shirt." The article should remain as it is. 65.66.153.99 18:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Really? Because I visited the websites for J. Press and found nothing of this type. I searched Paul Stuart for "tennis shirt" and got zero hits. Then I searched for "polo" and found an extensive collection. Then I went to Brooks Brothers and searched for "Tennis Shirt" and got a "Tennis Collar Dress Shirt" collection which is a completely different style of shirt. "Polo" search on Brooks site resulted in...you guessed it, a bunch of Polos.  So, pardon me if I doubt your story, but it seems inconsistent with their corporate catalogs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.98.151.209 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 24 August 2007

Contradiction?
In the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of the "Application to polo and other sports" section, it first mentions that the term "polo shirt" became universal in the 1950's, and then says that in 1967 people began calling Lacoste's tennis shirts "polo shirts". Is the article contradicting itself here?

I'm as confused as you are, comrade!Wipsenade (talk) 17:59, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

In what way is a collar that can be turned up useful for athletics?
In the 2nd to last paragraph, "The easily-upturnable collar remains another athletic aid." this makes no sense to me. Revan111 20:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Read the article upturned collar. Rene Lacoste's original purpose for the upturnable-collar on the tennis shirt was to block the sun from one's neck. Today, one sees this most in golf. 65.28.9.8 16:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is wrong about History, Dates, and the Proper name of the polo shirt
From newspaper archives we researched "new line polos" with pictures showing the style known today as "polos" were first advertised in August 1887.

1887 – August, ads appear in The News, Fredrick Maryland. “Just the thing for hot weather, new line polos”.

1893 – From the Magazine, Economy & Business September 1, 1986 - the new version of the polo made it’s debut in 1893 when worn by players from the Hurlingham Polo Club near Buenos Aires. Could this be the first bona fide sports shirt?

1920 – Lewis Lacey opens a sports store in Buenos Aires selling the new style polo shirts with the logo of a polo player astride a pony. Most likely the first time a logo has been used commercially. This information was taken from Time Magazine September 1986. (Ralph Lauren introduces a polo shirt in 1972 with depicts a polo player but from a different angle).

The editor who wrote the article on the tennis shirt for Wikipedia needs to do more research when he insists that the generic name for the polo shirt is tennis shirt. The article has further errors when it implies that Lacoste is responsible for the modern day polo shirt. Lacoste first marketed his shirt in France in 1933 and the US in 1951. The notable difference between the Lacoste shirt and the polo shirt was the longer tail of the Lacoste. To claim or imply that Lacoste was somehow the inventor of the polo shirt is insane.

For more info and records/photos that prove how wrong the "tennis shirt" nonsense is, please see the following page:

http://www.love-u-tshirt.com/polo-shirt.html

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.94.145 (talk • contribs) 12:22, 18 August 2007

 * Thank you - excellent input - this is very convincing. I see little opposition.  It is time to move the page and make some updates!  --NealMcB 16:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I edited the page to call it a Polo shirt and redo the history a bit - but would welcome work by others also - I didn't get all the wording changes etc. --NealMcB 17:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Nonsense. The page you linked to simply confused what was called a "polo shirt" in the 1890s-1960s (what we today would call a button-down dress shirt) and implied that it meant the Lacoste-style tennis shirt.  Moreover, a website set up specifically to counter a wikipedia article is not a valid source; only its cited sources are.  Instead, check out the actual histories from Lacoste, Ralph Lauren, and Brooks Brothers:

 * "1896 - THE BUTTON-DOWN POLO SHIRT - John Brooks, grandson of the founder, made fashion history by introducing the button-down polo collar shirt. His design inspiration came after attending an English polo match where he observed the players' shirts secured with buttons to keep them from flapping in the wind. The shirt became an instant success and soon one of the best-selling Brooks Brothers items." - Official Brooks Brothers history website

 * "In 1933, René LACOSTE and André GILLIER, the owner and President of the largest French knitwear manufacturing firm of that time, set up a company to manufacture the logo-embroidered shirt. The champion had designed this for his own use on the tennis court, as well as a number of other shirts for tennis, golf and sailing - as can be seen in the first catalogue, produced in 1933." - Official Lacoste website

 * "1967 - Already interested in promoting a lifestyle with his ties, Ralph Lauren names his line after a sport that embodies a world of discreet elegance and classic style: Polo." - Official Ralph Lauren history website: "1967"

 * "1972 - Polo’s original mesh shirt with the polo player logo is introduced in 24 colors. No other sport shirt offers the same combination of quality and variety. The shirt instantly becomes an American classic." - Official Ralph Lauren history website: "1972"

 * Also check out the Brooks Brothers history coffee-table book, which has more information about the history and progression of the "original" Polo shirt. The book was edited by George Plimpton and meticulously produced to mark the 200th anniversary of the company. Lacoste invented the shirt, he originally called it a tennis shirt, what people called "polo shirts" previously were what we would call button-down dress shirts, and Ralph Lauren popularized the name. It's quite simple, as these real sources show. 65.66.153.99 18:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I can't speak to this other website you speak of, but I find it absurd and hysterical that you are suggesting that corporate promotional material - which is what "official websites" of commercial enterprises are - is a legitimate source for a Wiki article. Everything you say may be true for all I know (well, except that I have seen ads for polo shirts - with illustrations that show we are not talking about the button-down dress shirt - that pre-date the 1930s) but you need to back it up with a reference that is not a brand promotional website or self-published brand book. TheCormac (talk) 03:58, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

 * For the record, my quick rewrite attempt was at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tennis_shirt&oldid=152953878 . I claim no expertise on the history, but ads for short-sleeved polos from the 1800's seem relevent there, even if they were different in other ways from what we now call a polo shirt.  But I have a sense that people are talking past each other here.  Our goal should be to reach consensus, and to not delete opposing views.  Attacking a well-documented source of references because it disagrees with "wikipedia" is hardly cause for elimination.  But I would also prefer some sources with page numbers, etc. that are easy to verify and put in context.  I put a link to the detailed history given above back in the article - please don't delete it unless even better references covering the same material is provided.  --NealMcB 21:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If anything attacked well-documented sources, it was the page to which you referred for your so-called "history" of the tennis shirt, which only attempted to attack the style's accepted history. The history of the tennis shirt has been documented extensively by the sources now referenced in the article. A revisionist website designed specifically to counter a sourced wikipedia article which displays a consensus-accepted history is not a valid source for Wikipedia purposes. Rather, the sources to which this article's references are made are valid sources. As your website notes, hundreds of websites recount the accepted history of the tennis shirt (invention by Rene Lacoste, label as "tennis shirt," popularizing of the term "polo shirt" by Ralph Lauren, &c.). Your website seeks to counter this consensus by using original research (prohibited by Wikipedia), accepting a failed defense to a lawsuit in the 1980s, taking undocumented claims as true, and attacking accepted history. Your site is not a valid Wikipedia sources, and it has no place in this article. 65.28.9.8 23:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I certainly agree with you regarding original research. This Neal person should go get published and peer-reviewed, or cite the published sources more completely to include them here.  But to that point, the "sources now referenced in the article" are really pretty thin.  Website repeating each other (and many, many of them just repeating what is in wikipedia) and folk-tales is not really research.  Can't you (or someone, but you are the one seeming so belligerent on this point) find some peer-reviewed honest to god academic history work on this topic? TheCormac (talk) 04:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

The UK player and 1920's Labour Party peer Fred Perry sold his first shirt in Paris, after beating a French player, during 1932. --Snow storm in Eastern Asia (talk) 13:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Requested move
Based on the many discussions above, and the newspaper ad evidence, and the fact that most links to this page already use the term Polo shirt, I tried to move it to Polo shirt. But that failed because there is an existing Talk:Polo_shirt page, so something was done wrong in the past. So I asked the admins to do it at Requested_moves --NealMcB 17:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. If one types in "polo shirt," it redirects to this article, where all relevant information is displayed, including information about the different names for this type of shirt. Moreover, the website on which your proposed move relies was set up specifically to counter not only this page, but also the entire accepted history of the tennis shirt, only to make an ultra-minority view into a mainstream one. Your "polo shirt history" page is not a valid source for Wikipedia purposes, and certainly does not do away with the accepted history of the tennis shirt, as mentioned on countless websites, including the official histories of Brooks Brothers, Polo Ralph Lauren, and Chemise Lacoste. Your page relies solely on information from a lawsuit's failed defense in the 1980s, a misconstrual of what the term "polo shirt" meant between the 1890s and 1960s, and a disdain for the accepted history. By all means include a "cricitism" or "minority view" section in this article, but moving it to "polo shirt" simply to placate your desire to overturn the accepted history of the tennis shirt is not necessary.65.66.153.99 21:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a vote on the name of the page, not the history. Naming_conventions says Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. The fact is that hardly anyone uses the term "tennis shirt" now, and most people use Polo shirt. And as I noted that also is reflected in how most people link to the page already. So thanks 65.66.153.99 for your input, and I encourage whoever wants to to debate the history, but the name of the article is a different thing. --NealMcB 16:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Typing in "polo shirt" redirects to this article. There is no problem with linking to or finding this article. I don't know about the "majority of English speakers," but Rene Lacoste originally called this style of shirt - which he invented - a "tennis shirt," and marketed it as such. I have always heard this type of shirt referred to as a "tennis shirt," except in very recent years. That Ralph Lauren's marketing in the early 1970s made people identify the shirt with the sport of polo so as to enhance his company's and clothing's allure, is not reason enough to change it. As such, because "polo shirt" is mere marketing for Ralph Lauren, and there currently is no difficulty linking to or finding this article, the name should not be changed. This article is not about the shirt manufactured by Ralph Lauren, but rather the basic style of shirt which Rene Lacoste designed and marketed in the 1920s and 1930s, which is, and always has been, a tennis shirt. Leave it be. 65.66.153.99 18:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. by Brian Vegaswikian 04:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Support. Polo shirt is the most common name.  I have never seen it advertised or sold as a tennis shirt.  The fact that a redirect exists is not a reason to not make the move.  Vegaswikian 06:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME. If the historical name for the shirt was tennis shirt, this can be mentioned in the intro line.  Otherwise, go with the most common contemporary form. —   AjaxSmack   19:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

External links to sales sites
The External links to the home pages for lacoste, brooksbrothers and polo/lauren don't directly provide any information relevant to this page - this isn't a page to promote sales of shirts or particular brands. Note External_links '''4. Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services.'''

Note, in the spirit of Conflict_of_interest, that I have no personal interest in the history or any of the companies involved - I'm just a Wikipedia user and editor trying to contribute to a useful and non-POV page. I encourage other participants in this discussion to disclose any relevant interests. --NealMcB 18:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I, too, have no personal interest in the history or any of the companies involved. I am simply a lay Wikipedia user and editor with an amateur fascination with the history and purposes of style and clothing, among other things. As for the links, the three websites contain a plethora of information about the history and style of the tennis shirt, as detailed and referenced throughout the article. For that reason, and that reason alone, they should remain. 65.66.153.99 18:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Prior to 8/24/07 I the web master of love-u-tshirt.com (cited above) was unaware that the site had been cited in this arena. From that you may draw the correct conclusion that none of the above comments have been entered by anyone associated with love-u-tshirt.com and that the contributor who cited reference to my site did so independently.

 * Love-u-tshirt.com is not a web site specifically set up to counter a wikipedia article as alluded to above, but a site about t-shirts whereby the history of the polo shirt gets a mention (3 pages) because of it’s close relationship to the t-shirt in terms of style and use. Like all the articles in the love-u-tshirt.com site they were thoroughly researched before publishing. The only part of the site that disputes any articles in wikipedia is the pages on the polo shirt.

 * If you read the list of historic events at love-u-tshirt it is not difficult to reason that the so-called “actual histories” from the Lacoste web site are in-fact inaccurate. To label self-congratulatory articles written by large business as “actual history” is I believe, commercially naive.

 * Wikipedia has sourced all its information on the polo shirt and tennis shirt from the web sites of the polo shirt manufacture themselves or sites that it would appear, got their information from the same sources. Hundreds of web sites have copied almost word for word the history of the polo shirt from sites like Lacoste and Lauren etc. But this does not give substance to their correctness and hardly what I call sourced information, it’s called copy. The dates and events referred to in the Love-u-tshirt polo shirt page(s) is sourced from either advertisements or articles in old newspaper archives and should be considered more independent.

 * One very important point that seems to be ignored is the fact that Lacoste did not market his shirt into the US until 1951. This was also confirmed by searching thousands of US Newspapers prior to 1952, which did not turn up one advertisement for Lacoste shirts prior to that year.

 * And although Lacoste advertised his shirt as a Golf shirt in the US between 1952 and 1970, disputing Lacoste as the inventor or the tennis shirt is not my intention.(The following is an example of one advertisement that appeared in the Charleston Gazette dated June 4 1970. The ad was for GOLF shirts by Lacoste from Izod and read in part “Our status GOLF SHIRT, designed by Rene Lacoste is equally at home on the TENNIS courts or patio). Today Lacoste refers to tennis shirts on one page and polo shirts on another page of his web site, perhaps still undecided.

 * What is in dispute is the fact that the polo shirt was well entrenched prior to Lacoste’s golf or tennis shirt and therefore the polo shirt is the grandfather of all shirt names for this style of shirt. Whether Lacoste calls it a golf shirt, polo shirt or tennis shirt is up to him and irrelevant to the history of the origins of the polo shirt.

 * Check out the table of eBay sellers at love-u-tshirt and see what the majority of people (not just in the US) call their polo shirts. In September 2006, out of a total of 114,412 (polo) shirts listed on eBay, only 1,088 were listed as tennis shirts. Pretty compelling evidence, so why not have a page on polo shirts independent of the tennis shirt and either rewrite or scrap the page on tennis shirt altogether? As the name ‘tennis shirt’ is sooo irrelevant the page on Lacoste should suffice.

 * The following are some of the more important examples of support for the origins of the polo shirt prior to Lacoste entering the market with his golf/tennis/polo shirt in France in 1933 and the US in 1951/2. If in doubt you can access these articles by going to newspaperARCHIVES.com, a small fee is required.

 * In August, 1887 an advertisement in The News, Fredrick Maryland, for polo shirts read in part “Just the thing for hot weather, new line polos”. Yet Wikipedia tells us “Before Lacoste’s 1933 mass-marketing of his tennis shirt, polo players wore thick long-sleeve shirts made of Oxford-cloth cotton.” Hardly the thing for hot weather?

 * 1930 – The Morning Star October 17, Article by O O McIntyre: “The polo shirt becomes a democratic bit of wearing apparel. Originally it marked the Fop but today graces the Tough Mug and International Banker. They are seen at Newport and Coney Island on Park Avenue and Avenue A and priced from one dollar to $42. New York saw the polo first on Vernon Castle.”

 * 1930 The following article headed “Berets and Polo Shirts Find Place in He-Man Wardrobe” was published in the Syracuse Herald: Wednesday July 23, 1930. It is clear from this article alone that the polo shirt was well and truly entrenched in US fashion by 1930.

 * “The polo shirt is another more or less recent innovation as an article of popular fashion, and the wearing of same signifies no greater knowledge of the game then in the relationship between knicker-bocker pants and golf, and the shirt has gone strong in Syracuse, according to local merchants, just as it has taken the rest of the nation by storm this season.

 * Mere man apparently favors gay pastel colors too, since those who sell polo shirts testify there is more demand for green, blue, red, the variety of so-called canary yellows and buff, than for white”.

 * Going by a photo (advertisement) in the Appleton Post Crescent the polo shirt also had a place in women’s fashion in 1930.

 * The image is of a pretty young woman wearing a tweed skirt, polo shirt and hat for a casual outing.

 * The history of the polo shirt and the page name are interlinked and both need to be agreed upon together. In summary the polo shirt much like we know it today, was well established in the US for many years prior to Lacoste first marketing his shirt in France in 1933 or in the US in 1952.

 * To say that the tennis shirt is the forerunner to the polo is as absurd as putting the cart before the horse. And to claim the garment is more often labeled tennis shirt then the polo shirt is as equally absurd. To justify a redirect from polo shirt to tennis shirt as some how being ‘ok’, well, doesn’t deserve mention.

 * And because something is published by a hundred web sites or even a thousand it does not qualify it’s correctness, it could however show that some webmasters find it far less time consuming to copy then to research.

 * With reference to Brooks Brothers it is my understanding that they produced a dress shirt with a (button down) polo collar in around 1986. This shirt should not be confused with the new line polo shirts of similar times.Drogan 06:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Your insistence that the entire consensus-accepted history of the tennis shirt, which your site admits is the accepted consensus history, is wrong. It is based on two fundamental misunderstandings.

 * First, what was referred to in print as a "polo shirt" prior to the sport of polo's adoption of Lacoste's tennis shirt is not a "polo shirt" or "tennis shirt" as we think of them today. Instead, the reference is to the original "polo shirt", the oxford-broadcloth soft button-down collar shirt which Brooks began producing in 1896 and which they had introduced in many other pastel colors in 1898. Check out Brooks Brothers's history site, the Brooks history coffee-table book edited by George Plimpton a few years ago, or any site detailing the history of the tennis shirt/polo shirt besides yours for more information.

 * Second, your site insists that someone in Argentina was selling emblemized tennis shirts in the 1920s, and uses this throughout as evidence that Rene Lacoste did not invent the tennis shirt. It cites to a 1986 Time Magazine article to support this assertion. Instead of being fact, however, that story was the unproven defense to a trademark-infringement lawsuit which Ralph Lauren brought against a Buenos Aires haberdasher in 1986. The haberdasher settled the lawsuit out of court and agreed not to use Mr. Lauren's polo-horse emblem, and his wild allegation that Rene Lacoste did not invent the shirt was not found to be true. It simply was an allegation, nothing more. Indeed, that is not even Time Magazine's position, and Time did not express it as such in the 1986 article; it simply reported the haberdasher's defense. Check outthis link to see that Time Magazine also considers Rene Lacoste to be the inventor of the tennis/polo shirt.

 * With respect to Mr. Lacoste's invention, although Chemise Lacoste may not have marketed the shirt directly to Americans before 1951, clearly the shirt did wind up throughout the United States, and appeared in haberdasheries and European resellers years before being directly marketed to the USA by Lacoste himself. Indeed, Lacoste did first wear his invention in the United States in 1926, and newspapers commented on it. Whatever its marketing status by Chemise Lacoste, the shirt soon took the US by storm, as the bona fide sources to which the article is directed attest.

 * As a result, your conclusions are unfounded and not sourced correctly for Wikipedia purposes. They are based on misunderstandings and unproven allegations. Moreover, self-published information is not a valid source on Wikipedia (see WP:SELFPUB for more information). Your self-published history makes allegations which are unmatched by any other source anywhere regarding the history of the tennis shirt, either in print or on the internet, and thus is not a fitting source for Wikipedia. 66.142.58.162 15:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted your removal of the Missing information box. Your comment (→History - box rm per discussion) seems inappropriate given that there are at least 3 people arguing for the need for extra history, and only one (yourself) arguing against it. I'll also second the need to find references that don't rely on commercial vendors with a conflict of interest. You argue that love-u-tshirt.com is an inappropriate source of references, and at least two of us point out that the same is true of the vendors you largely rely on (with many references to the same article rather than "ibids" which makes it seem like there are more sources than there are).

The article continues to suggest that Lacoste introduced more innovations at once than the record seems to indicate. E.g. it seems that more casual short-sleeved "polo" shirts, though with different fabric, were in fashion before he came on the scene. (They may be dress shirts now, but the description suggests that they were more casual in that time). Given that the article is properly titled "polo shirt" as we've now established, clarifying the history of the name up front will help.

All these details need to be properly sourced of course, and we need someone to look at the newspaper references cited above. Some more history on knitted vs woven cloth would be nice. References to the lawsuit seem relevant also - do you have sources better than the Time article, and does it talk about more than the logo controversy (e.g. what polo players were wearing in 1893)?

So who has access to the newspaper archives, and "Economy & Business September 1, 1986", that can help us find a consensus here (or at least let us represent whatever remaining properly-referenced controversy remains)? --NealMcB 01:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Lacoste in USA 1926.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Lacoste logo.gif
Image:Lacoste logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Image copyright problem with Image:Polo Ralph Lauren logo.png
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Weird discussion at the end of the article
It's in first person and reads like a blog entry. I deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.32.197 (talk) 03:08, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Proper Way to Button a Polo Shirt
This has been a question since Business Casual became the craze in the 1990's. Most Polo (Golf) shirts have 3 buttons. When wearing a 3-button polo (golf) shirt to the office, the rule of thumb is that the bottom two buttons should be actually buttoned. If you are wearing a golf shirt with 2 buttons, then the bottom button should actually be buttoned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.2.193.1 (talk) 14:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Very few golfers wear anything else
I don't know about everyone else, but I get some weird images in my head when I read that sentence. Evanh2008, Super Genius (User page) (talk)  08:53, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Gay gits?Trish pt7 (talk) 19:22, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Gays like wring them?79.77.207.102 (talk) 15:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Knit vs weave
The intro says Polo shirts are usually made of knitted cloth (rather than woven cloth), usually piqué cotton, but the linked article says piqué is a kind of woven cloth. Again in the history section, He designed a white, short-sleeved, loosely-knit piqué cotton (he called the cotton weave jersey petit piqué) shirt. I think we can all agree that polo shirts are of knitted fabric. So is the piqué article wrong, or are polo shirts not piqué? My guess is that the fabric is properly called "piqué knit", i.e. a knit that's named after the weave called piqué, and that this is common enough that it ought to be noted in the piqué article. But that's just a guess. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 11:29, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Currently, 2024, there is no link in support of the statement. (All my polo shirts are woven).Kdammers (talk) 17:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

List of brands is unencyclopeadic
I suggest that the section be deleted. Roxy, the dog . wooF 18:47, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

It dose not mention the Argentine 'Peplau Ranges'.79.77.207.102 (talk) 15:21, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

"Chukker shirt" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Chukker shirt. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 November 14 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Ibadibam (talk) 06:11, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Intro
The introduction is inadequate. How could one get an idea of what a PS is from it? It's a shirt with a collar -- that leaves out a key point to wit, the shirt has a collar placket. Kdammers (talk) 17:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Polo shirt


text:
User talk:Tvaughan77

Corporate logos
Copyrighted logos may be exhibited on Wikipedia under the fair use doctrine of United States copyright law. – flamurai (t) 01:35, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Tvaughan77


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old/Transwiki

Needing Transwiki — Transwiki log
'''Please do not remove items from this list until the results of the AfD debate have been completely finished. That is, the article has been Transwikied, and then deleted, merged, or redirected, whichever was decided.'''

Wikibooks prefers to do transwiki by way of a 'request for import', which should be made prior to deletion here. Ask the importer to leave a note here once it has been done.


text:
Culture of San Francisco

The culture of San Francisco is major and diverse in terms of arts, music, cuisine, festivals, museums, and architecture but also is influenced heavily by Mexican culture due to its large Hispanic population, and its history as part of Spanish America and Mexico. San Francisco's diversity of cultures along with its eccentricities are so great that they have greatly influenced the country and the world at large over the years. In 2012, Bloomberg Businessweek voted San Francisco as America's Best City.

Museums
The Museum of Modern Art (SFMOMA) contains 20th Century and contemporary pieces. It moved to its building in South of Market in 1995 and attracts 600,000 visitors annually. The California Palace of the Legion of Honor contains primarily European works. The De Young Museum and the Asian Art Museum have significant anthropological and non-European holdings.

The Palace of Fine Arts, a remnant of the 1915 Panama-Pacific Exposition, used to house the Exploratorium, a popular science museum dedicated to teaching through hands-on interaction, which moved to a new location on the Embarcadero in 2013. The California Academy of Sciences is a natural history museum and hosts the Morrison Planetarium and Steinhart Aquarium. The Asian Art Museum of San Francisco has one of the most comprehensive collections of Asian art in the world. From 1958 until 2003 the collection was housed in a wing of at the original de Young in Golden Gate Park. When the de Young closed while constructing a new building, the Asian Art Museum moved to the former San Francisco City Library building, which was renovated for the purpose under the direction of Italian architect Gae Aulenti who had previously overseen the conversion of the Musée d'Orsay in Paris.

The San Francisco Zoo cares for a total of about 250 animal species, 39 of which have been deemed endangered or threatened.

Other museums include the Museum of the African Diaspora, the Contemporary Jewish Museum, the Museum of Craft & Folk Art, the Cartoon Art Museum, and the Mexican Museum. Some "offbeat" museums and galleries dealing in unconventional topics include the Antique Vibrator Museum, the Musée Mécanique (dedicated to penny arcade machines), the Museum of Ophthalmology, Ripley's Believe it or Not Museum, the Stamp Francisco/Stamp Art Gallery (rubber stamps not postal stamps), the Tattoo Art Museum (old tattoo machines and instruments), the UFO, Bigfoot and Loch Ness Monster Museum, and the Wax Museum at Fisherman's Wharf.

Music and nightlife

Classical and Opera venues in San Francisco include the San Francisco Symphony, the San Francisco Opera and the San Francisco Ballet. They all perform at the San Francisco War Memorial and Performing Arts Center. San Francisco's Ballet and Opera are some of the oldest continuing performing arts companies in the United States. San Francisco is the birthplace and home city of the vocal ensemble Chanticleer. The city is also home to the American Conservatory Theater, also known as A.C.T., which has been routinely staging original productions since its arrival in San Francisco in 1967. Additionally, the New Conservatory Theatre Center (NCTC) is known for being an intimate theater that routinely stages original productions by the local, national, and international LGBTQIA+ community. Hundreds of smaller, alternative theatres also attract a significant portion of the audience given their historical role in the San Francisco performing arts culture. The oldest of these are Intersection for the Arts, founded in 1965, and the Magic Theatre, founded in 1967. A major player in the promotion of theater in the Bay Area is Theatre Bay Area (or TBA). A non profit organization, Theatre Bay Area has members from more than 365 Bay Area theatre and dance companies, is the publisher of Callboard Magazine, and runs San Francisco's Half-Priced Ticket Booth.

The Fillmore is a music venue located in the Western Addition. It is the second incarnation of the historic venue that gained fame in the 1960s under concert promoter Bill Graham, housing the stage where now-famous musicians such as the Grateful Dead, Janis Joplin, Led Zeppelin and Jefferson Airplane first performed, fostering the San Francisco Sound. Beach Blanket Babylon is a zany musical revue and a civic institution that has performed to sold-out crowds in North Beach since 1974. Bimbo's 365 Club, in North Beach, is one of the city's oldest entertainment venues and plays host to music shows of all genres. Most nightclubs in San Francisco are exclusive to audiences age 21 and older; the two most prominent nightclubs in the city which are open to ages 18 and older are 715 Harrison (known locally by its two event names Club X and City Nights) as well as DNA Lounge. Nightlife venues occasionally have a strong affiliation with a certain theme or culture, such as 1015 Folsom, which has a history with BDSM culture, or Temple, noted for its futurism and energy-generating dance floor.

Additionally, San Francisco is home to the 200-member San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus, the world's first openly gay chorus, as well as the San Francisco Lesbian/Gay Freedom Band. Two additional gay choruses, the Lesbian/Gay Chorus of San Francisco and Golden Gate Men's Chorus, also perform throughout the year.

Theater
San Francisco has a large number of theaters and live performance venues. Local theater companies have been noted for risk taking and innovation, as documented in the film Stage Left: A Story of Theater in San Francisco. The Tony Award-winning non-profit American Conservatory Theater (A.C.T.) is a member of the national League of Resident Theatres, and has been in San Francisco since it moved from Pittsburgh in 1967. Other local winners of the Regional Theatre Tony Award include the San Francisco Mime Troupe, and Berkeley Rep in nearby Berkeley. The Magic Theatre was the home theater of the playwright Sam Shepard during his most productive period, and many of his plays were first staged there. San Francisco-based SHN hosts productions of Broadway shows in its vintage 1920s-era venues in the Theater District: the Curran, Orpheum, and Golden Gate Theatres.

San Francisco has had a thriving improv theatre community, with a distinctly different style of improv than much of the rest of the country. Unlike Chicago where one venue will host three 30-45 minute shows in one evening, most San Francisco improv shows are 2 hours long, complete with their own intermission. And while Chicago and New York are full of improv companies who perform formats based on the Harold (with multiple storylines going on at the same time), San Francisco is full of improv shows with single-story formats. Often referred to as play-length improv shows, these improv shows are rooted in the idea that if someone can perform something scripted (like a play, movie, or musical) then it can also be improvised just as well. Some groups that define the improvisation scene in San Francisco are: BATS Improv, The Un-Scripted Theater Company, and The San Francisco Improv Alliance.

San Francisco theaters frequently host pre-Broadway engagements and tryout runs, and some original San Francisco productions have later moved to Broadway. Plays and productions that have been staged in San Francisco (or nearby) prior to their Broadway productions include the following:
 * A Chorus Line (revival) at the Curran Theatre (2006)
 * Ain't Too Proud at Berkeley Rep (2017)
 * Amélie at Berkeley Rep (2015)
 * American Idiot at Berkeley Rep (2009)
 * Angels in America: Millennium Approaches at the Eureka Theatre (1991)
 * Beautiful: The Carole King Musical at the Curran Theatre (2013)
 * Biloxi Blues at the Curran Theatre (1985)
 * The Boys in the Band at Theatre Rhinoceros (1990)
 * Brighton Beach Memoirs at the Curran Theatre (1983)
 * Bring It On the Musical at the Orpheum Theatre (2011-2012)
 * Buried Child at the Magic Theatre (1978)
 * Cabaret (revival) at the Golden Gate Theatre (1987)
 * Carnival in Flanders at the Curran Theatre (1953)
 * Choir Boy at the Boyer Theatre (2015)
 * Dame Edna: Back With a Vengeance at the Curran Theatre (2004)
 * Defending the Caveman at The Improv San Francisco (1991)
 * Diversions & Delights at the Marines Memorial Theatre (1977)
 * Evita at the Orpheum Theatre (1979)
 * Fences at the Curran Theatre (1987)
 * Fool for Love at the Magic Theatre (1983)
 * For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow Is Enuf at the Bacchanal Bar in Albany, California (1974)
 * Forever Tango (1994-1996)
 * Gigi at the Curran Theatre (1973)
 * Godspell at the Geary Theater (1972)
 * Head Over Heels at the Curran Theatre (2018)
 * High Society at the Geary Theater (1997)
 * Home Sweet Homer (Odyssey) at the Curran Theatre (1975)
 * Hugh Jackman in Performance at the Curran Theatre (2011)
 * In the Next Room (or The Vibrator Play) at Berkeley Rep (2009)
 * Jitney at the Curran Theatre (2002)
 * Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat (revival) at the Golden Gate Theatre (1993)
 * Kismet at the Curran Theatre (1953)
 * La Boheme (Baz Luhrmann's production) at the Curran Theatre (2002)
 * Latin History for Morons at Berkeley Rep (2016)
 * Legally Blonde at the Golden Gate Theatre (2007)
 * Lennon at the Curran Theatre (2006)
 * Lestat at the Curran Theatre (2005-2006)
 * Magdalena: a Musical Adventure at the Curran Theatre (1948)
 * Mama Mia! at the Orpheum Theatre (2000-2001)
 * Martin Short: Fame Becomes Me at the Curran Theatre (2006)
 * Memphis at TheatreWorks (2002 & 2004)
 * Metamorphoses at the Zellerbach Playhouse (Berkeley Rep) (1999)
 * My Fair Lady (revival) at the Golden Gate Theatre (1981)
 * No Man's Land (revival) at Berkeley Rep (2013)
 * Oh, Hello at the Herbst Theatre (2016)
 * Oliver! at the Curran Theatre (1962)
 * Passing Strange at Berkeley Rep (2006)
 * Peter Pan at the Curran Theatre (1954)
 * Pickwick at the Curran Theatre (1965)
 * Ring of Fire at the Curran Theatre (2006)
 * Seared at San Francisco Playhouse (2016)
 * Show Girl at the Curran Theatre (1959)
 * Stones in His Pockets at the Magic Theatre (1999)
 * Straight White Men at the Boyer Theatre (2018)
 * The Act at the Orpheum Theatre (1977)
 * The Grand Tour at the Curran Theatre (1978)
 * The Invention of Love at the Geary Theater (2000)
 * The Two-Character Play at the Showcase Theatre (1976)
 * Three Wishes for Jamie at the Curran Theatre (1951)
 * True West at the Magic Theatre (1980)
 * What the Constitution Means to Me at Berkeley Rep (2018)
 * White Christmas at the Curran Theatre (2004-2005)
 * Wicked at the Curran Theatre (2003)
 * Wishful Drinking at Berkeley Rep (2008)

Popular music
San Francisco has often hosted influential rock music trends, starting with the San Francisco Sound during the 1960s. Two of the most influential bands from that era, the Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane, started out in San Francisco in 1965. Other groups include rockers Creedence Clearwater Revival, Santana, soft rock band Pablo Cruise and Journey, seminal punk band the Dead Kennedys, and alternative metal band Faith No More. It is the birthplace of thrash metal with bands such as Metallica, Testament, Exodus, Slayer, Death Angel, Megadeth and latterly Machine Head. San Francisco has had significant influence on punk rock in California since the late 1970s. In the late 1980s and early 1990s it was somewhat influential in rave and electronica. Activity in the Goth/industrial scene has been continuous in the city since then, with it being home to the world's second longest running goth club after Slimelight in London, England. Gentrification during the late 1990s is said to have forced many performers to move away. However, San Francisco is still home to a number of respected music acts, such as Chuck Prophet, Lords of Sealand and John Vanderslice, and especially in the Fillmore and Hunters Point districts, San Francisco is the home of numerous rappers, including Messy Marv, RBL Posse, Rappin' 4-Tay, HughEMC, San Quinn, Andre Nickatina, Big Rich, JT the Bigga Figga, Ant Rich 415, and Paris. San Francisco DJs and electronic musicians are credited with defining the laid-back, dub-influenced sound of the West Coast house music. Prominent DJs and artists include Kaskade, Miguel Migs, Mark Farina, and DJ Garth. Dub Mission is among the city's regular music parties. Since 2000 San Francisco has hosted the How Weird Street Faire, claimed to be the longest-running electronic music street festival in North America.

Famous songs about San Francisco include Tony Bennett's "I Left My Heart in San Francisco", the Scott McKenzie song "San Francisco (Be Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair)", People Under The Stairs' "San Francisco Knights", Chris Isaak's "San Francisco Days", Journey's "Lights", "Fake Tales of San Francisco" by the Arctic Monkeys, and "Save Me, San Francisco" by Train.

Comedy
Comedian and actor, Robin Williams helped San Francisco become recognized as a good town for comedy clubs. He rose to fame, having gotten his early start in San Francisco clubs such as the Holy City Zoo, the Punchline and The Other Café in the '70's. He also shot seven films on location in San Francisco.

Cuisine
The city is the birthplace of the local variety of sourdough bread, the Mission burrito, and steam beer. Fisherman's Wharf has served local specialty Dungeness crab for decades. Food companies include Anchor Brewing Company, Boudin Bakery, the Ghirardelli Chocolate Company. Famous past and present restaurants include the Tonga Room, Fleur de Lys, Greens, Original Joe's, Stars, Vesuvio Cafe and the Top of the Mark. California Cuisine and fusion cuisine are prominent in the city. Food trucks are a source of ethnically diverse, and gourmet street foods, with concentrations of various trucks at regular times and places. Notable grocery stores, which often focus on locally-grown organic produce, include the Rainbow Grocery Cooperative and Bi-Rite Market. Johnny Kan opened one of the first modern Chinese restaurants, in Chinatown in 1953.

Festivals and street fairs
San Francisco is home to many different and unique street festivals, parties and parades. Most famous are its gay pride parade, held every June; the Folsom Street Fair held every September; Chinese New Year Parade held in February; Carnaval, held during the spring; Litquake and Hardly Strictly Bluegrass in October. It used to host a North American version of the Loveparade electronic music festival (later known as the "Lovefest" and "LoveEvolution"), held in late summer/early fall, until city officials revoked the event's permits due to safety concerns in 2009. Since 2000 San Francisco has hosted the How Weird Street Faire, claimed to be the longest-running electronic music street festival in North America. Outside Lands Music and Arts Festival in the city is the largest independently owned music festival in the United States. San Francisco is also home to running races such as the Bay to Breakers and the San Francisco Marathon. During Labor Day weekend in 2008, the city played host to the first Slow Food Nation, the first major public event for Slow Food USA and one of the largest food events in the nation.

Many neighborhoods in San Francisco have annual street festivals featuring live music, arts and crafts vendors, and community organizations. Among the largest of these are Castro Street Fair, Union Street Art Festival, North Beach Festival, and Haight-Ashbury Street Fair. The San Francisco Opera company puts on an annual free Opera in the Park performance in Golden Gate Park. The San Francisco Symphony does likewise on several dates in July, including one as part of the Stern Grove Festival. On the Fourth of July holiday, there are fireworks shows over Fisherman's Wharf and Marina Green. Another fireworks show is held every May as part of the KFOG: Kaboom!.

Architecture and tourist attractions

San Francisco contains a plethora of unique architecture that serve as tourist attractions in their own right. They include its Civic Center, Coit Tower atop Telegraph Hill, the Ferry Building on its waterfront, the world-renowned Golden Gate Bridge, the twisty and windy Lombard Street in Russian Hill, "Painted Ladies", terraced victorian houses that can be found citywide, the San Francisco cable car system, the abstract San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, the San Francisco–Oakland Bay Bridge, the ruins of the once great Sutro Baths, Chinatown, and the Transamerica Pyramid.

Cultural Enclaves
San Francisco has long been home to many different ethnicities and nationalities from around the world as well as sexual and gender identities, and have developed unique cultural neighborhoods (either naturally or through redlining) over its time.

title: Culture of San Francisco


text:
Apocryphon of John

The Apocryphon of John, also called the Secret Book of John or the Secret Revelation of John, is a 2nd-century Sethian Gnostic Christian pseudepigraphical text attributed to John the Apostle. It is one of the texts addressed by Irenaeus in his Against Heresies, placing its composition before 180 AD. It is presented as describing Jesus appearing and giving secret knowledge (gnosis) to his disciple John. The author describes it as having occurred after Jesus had "gone back to the place from which he came".

Overview
Many second-century Christians, both Gnostic and orthodox, hoped to receive a transcendent personal revelation such as Paul the Apostle reported to the church at Corinth or that John experienced on the isle of Patmos, which inspired the Book of Revelation. As Acts narrates what happened after the time Jesus ascended to heaven, so the Apocryphon of John begins at the same point but relates how Christ reappeared to John.

The opening words of the Secret Book of John are, "The teaching of the saviour, and the revelation of the mysteries and the things hidden in silence, even these things which he taught John, his disciple." The author John is immediately specified as "John, the brother of James—who are the sons of Zebedee." The remainder of the book is a vision of spiritual realms and of the prior history of spiritual humanity.

There are four separate surviving manuscripts of "The Secret Book of John". One was purchased in Egypt in 1896 (the Berlin Codex) and three were found in the Nag Hammadi codices discovered in 1945. All date to the 4th century and are Coptic translations from Greek. Three appear to have been independently produced. Two of the four are similar enough that they probably were copied from a single source.

Although the different versions of the texts have minor variants (the Berlin Codex has many minor differences with Nag Hammadi II and IV), all texts generally agree on the assertion that the main revealing entity was Jesus.

History
A book called the Apocryphon of John was referred to by Irenaeus in Adversus Haereses, written about 185, among "an indescribable number of secret and illegitimate writings, which they themselves have forged, to bewilder the minds of foolish people, who are ignorant of the true scriptures" —scriptures which Irenaeus himself helped to establish (see the canonical four). Among the writings he quotes from, in order to expose and refute them, are the Gospel of Truth, Gospel of Judas, and this secret book of John.

Little more was known of this text until 1945, when a cache of thirteen papyrus codices (bound books) that had been hidden away in the 4th century, was fortuitously discovered at Nag Hammadi in Egypt (CG II). The Apocryphon of John was among the texts, in three Coptic versions translated from the Greek. Two of the versions are very similar and represent one manuscript tradition; they incorporate a lengthy excerpt from a certain Book of Zoroaster appended to the Apocryphon (as chapters 15:29 – 19:8f) A shorter version of the Apocryphon found at Nag Hammadi does not contain the interpolation and represents another manuscript tradition. Still another version of this short edition of the text was discovered in an ancient Coptic Codex acquired by Dr. Carl Reinhardt in Cairo in 1896. This manuscript (identified as the "Berlin Gnostic Codex" or BG 8502) was used along with the three versions found at Nag Hammadi to produce the translations now available. The fact that four manuscript "editions" of this text survived—two "long" versions and two "short" versions—suggests how important this text was in early gnostic Christian circles. In the three Nag Hammadi codices the Apocryphon of John appears always in the first version.

Influence
The Apocryphon, set in the framing device of a revelation delivered by the resurrected Christ to John the son of Zebedee, contains some of the most extensive detailing of classic dualistic Gnostic mythology that has survived; as one of the principal texts of the Nag Hammadi library, it is an essential text of study for anyone interested in Gnosticism. Frederick Wisse, who translated it, asserts that "The Apocryphon of John was still used in the eighth century by the Audians of Mesopotamia" (Wisse p 104).

The Apocryphon of John has become the central text for studying the gnostic tradition of Antiquity. The creation mythology it details has been studied by Carl Jung and Eric Voegelin.

Texts
There are currently four surviving copies of The Secret Revelation of John. They are largely the same in their basic structure and content. One notable difference between the codices is their individual length. The Berlin Codex and Nag Hammadi Codex III are shorter than the Nag Hammadi Codices II and IV. Another point of departure between codices is the portrayal of the Savior/Christ figure. The Berlin Codex generally uses the term “Christ” more frequently, whereas the Nag Hammadi Codex III narrative often substitutes the term “Lord” or “Savior”. However, the Nag Hammadi Codex III closes its text with the prayer “Jesus Christ, Amen.” An additional distinction, with regards to the Christian framing of the texts, is that Nag Hammadi Codex III goes into greater detail about the descent of the Christ/Savior figure into the prison-world of Demiurge and his role in facilitating the reawakening and liberation of mankind. These distinctions may represent a certain degree of variation in the way that Gnostic cosmology was woven into a Christian context.

Summary of the text and its cosmology
The following summary of the Apocryphon is derived from Wisse's translation.

The text begins with John describing his own state of grief and bewilderment after Christ's crucifixion. The Savior then appears, takes various forms, and after banishing John's fears, provides the following cosmological narrative.

The highest divine principle is the Monad. The Monad is described as a "monarchy with nothing above it". He is supreme, absolute, eternal, infinite, perfect, holy and self-sufficient. However, his transcendent ineffability is also emphasized. He is neither quantifiable nor can his qualities ever truly be described. The Monad exists in inconceivable perfection.

The Monad produces from his thought a feminine divine entity or principle named Barbelo. She is described as "the first thought", and the "image" of the Monad. While Barbelo is always referred to as a "she", she is also described as both the primordial mother and father. She is also regarded as "the first man", "Holy Spirit", "Mother/Father" and described in various terms of androgyny. She is the first of a class of beings referred to as the Aeons, and an exchange between herself and the Monad brings the other Aeons into being. Additionally, the properties of Light and Mind are born from the Monad's reflection on Barbelo. Light is synonymous with Christ, also called "Christ the Autogenes". The Light and the Mind engage in further creative activity, aided by and glorifying the superior principles of Barbelo and the Monad. Together, they bring forth further Aeons and powers.

Eventually, one of the Aeons, Sophia "of the Epinoia", disrupts the harmony of these processes by engaging in creative activity without the participation or consent of the Spirit of the Monad and without the aid of a male consort. The creative power of her thought produces an entity named Yaldabaoth, who is the first of a series of incomplete, demonic entities called the Archons. Yaldabaoth, whose character is malevolent and arrogant, also has a grotesque form. His head is that of a lion while he possesses a serpentine body. Recognizing the deformed, imperfect nature of her offspring, Sophia attempts to conceal it somewhere where the other Aeons will not discover it. The act of hiding Yaldabaoth also has the result that Yaldabaoth himself remains ignorant of the upper world and the other Aeons.

Despite the fact that Yaldabaoth possesses only a single parent and was created without the consent of the Spirit of the Monad, he is powerful enough to mimic the creative processes of the superior Aeons. He creates a whole host of other Archons, each of whom share his own basically deficient character, and creates a world for them to inhabit. This world is fundamentally inferior to the world above. It is fashioned out of darkness, but animated by light stolen from Sophia. The result is a world that is neither "light nor dark" but is instead "dim". In his arrogance and ignorance, Yaldabaoth declares himself the sole and jealous God of this realm.

Recognizing the imperfection of Yaldabaoth and his counterfeit world, Sophia repents. In forgiveness of her error, the Spirit of the Monad assists the other Aeons and powers in an attempt to redeem Sophia and her bastard creation. During this process Yaldabaoth and his Archons hear the voice of the Monad's Spirit. While they are terrified by the voice, its echo leaves a trace of an image of the Spirit on the "waters" that form the roof of their realm. Hoping to harness this power for themselves, they attempt to create a copy of this image. The end result of this process is the first human man, Adam.

Recognizing an opportunity to retrieve the light imprisoned in the darkness of Yaldabaoth and his world, Sophia and agents of the higher order, referred to variously as the "plenoria" or the "Epinoia", and later as the "pleroma", devise a scheme. They trick Yaldabaoth into blowing his own spiritual essence into Adam. This simultaneously animates Adam and empties Yaldabaoth of the portion of his being derived from Sophia.

Seeing the luminosity, intelligence and general superiority of the now animate Adam, Yaldabaoth and the Archons regret their creation and do their best to imprison or dispose of him. Failing to do so, they then attempt to neutralize him by placing him in the Garden of Eden. In this narrative, the Garden of Eden is a false paradise where the fruit of the trees is sin, lust, ignorance, confinement and death. While they give Adam access to the Tree of Life, they conceal the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. According to this narrative, the Tree of Knowledge actually represents the penetration of the positive forces of the higher world and the Epinoia into Yaldabaoth's realm.

At this point in the narrative, Christ reveals to John that it was he who caused Adam to consume the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Additionally, it is revealed that Eve is a helper sent by agents of the higher order to help liberate the light imprisoned in Yaldabaoth's creation and in Adam. She is created when Yaldabaoth attempts to draw the light out of Adam. This results in the creation of the female body. When Adam perceives her, he sees a reflection of his own essence and is freed from the bewitching power of Yaldabaoth.

The narrative then details Yaldabaoth's attempts to regain control over the essence of Light. His primary scheme is to initiate the activity of human reproduction, by which he hopes to create new human bodies inhabited by a counterfeit spirit. This counterfeit spirit allows Yaldabaoth and his agents to deceive the human race, keeping them in ignorance of their true nature, and is the primary means by which Yaldabaoth keeps humanity in subjugation. It is the source of all earthly evil and confusion, and causes people to die "not having found truth and without knowing the God of truth". Following this revelation, the narrative then takes the form of a series of questions and answers between John and the Savior. These address a number of subjects, but are largely soteriological in nature. John asks Christ who is eligible for salvation, and Christ responds with the answer that those who come in contact with the true Spirit will receive salvation, while those who are dominated by the counterfeit spirit will receive damnation. Christ also reveals his own role as a liberating agent of the higher realm, in this context. Christ, who describes himself as the "remembrance of the Pronoia" and "the remembrance of the pleroma", brings light into the darkness of Yaldabaoth's prison. Here, he rouses the prisoners to wakefulness and remembrance. Those who receive and are woken by Christ's revelation are raised up and “sealed… in the light of the water with five seals”. They are thus spared from death and damnation. This aspect of Christ's role is elaborated on more fully by Nag Hammadi Codex III, whereas it is omitted from the Berlin Codex.

This concludes Christ's message. Finally, the savior states that anyone who shares these revelations for personal profit will be cursed. The Nag Hammadi Codex III version of the text ends with the prayer, "Jesus Christ, Amen".

title: Apocryphon of John


text:
Talk:Aloha shirt/Archive 1

Untitled
The Aloha shirt, often mistakenly called the Hawaiian shirt by non-natives, is a style of dress shirt originating in Hawai'i, a state of the United States.

I'd be willing to bet the use of the phrase "Hawaiian shirt" is quite deliberate.

What is it?
What is an Aloha shirt? Why is it different from a normal short-sleeved buttoned shirt? --Spikey 03:08, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not, for the most part. It's just a shirt that has a "tropical" design, whether plants, fruit, or whatever.  In one sense, it could be compared to the oversized, button-up "anime" shirts you may have seen, with anime/manga characters or a dragon motif on them. Crystalattice 18:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Missionary origin of shirts
I don't know why I didn't notice this earlier, but the section on missionaries was completely, absolutely, utterly wrong -- and unreferenced.

The missionaries did not impose dress codes. They "asked" their converts to dress decently by New England standards and as far as I know, that consisted of putting the women into Mother Hubbards (the term used at the time was holokū) and the men into whatever simulacra of shirts and pants they could muster. There were no laws forcing Hawaiians to wear Western clothing. Any such laws would have been impossible to enforce, because Western clothing required imported cloth, which was expensive. Hawaiians often wore ragged castoffs to church, prompting much amused comment from Western observers.

The shirts worn by Westerners during the 19th century were not cut like aloha shirts. They were always made of white linen or cotton. If Hawaiians wore castoff shirts, the shirts were of the prevailing Western pattern. If they sewed their own, the shirts were of the prevailing Western pattern ... which was ingenuously designed, with pleats, gathers, and gussets, to use every scrap of a rectangle of cloth. See the book Cut My Cote for details. They were not aloha shirts! Zora 22:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Facts and cited sources
Wikipedia (DE) has more about the Aloha shirt here. ThT 00:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Aloha
''Discussion moved to Talk:Aloha shirt after tagged with template:move. --ThT 00:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)''

Formality
The article makes several unsourced claims that these shirts are considered "formal" wear, and that actual formal clothing is almost a taboo. This really needs to be backed up or deleted. -Branddobbe 02:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * See references added. Maybe somebody can add pictures from a legislature session with    people wearing Aloha Shirts or something similiar. --ThT 23:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Requested move
''Discussion moved from Talk:Aloha shirt after tagged with move. --ThT 00:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)''
 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposed move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

no consensus to move. The article's subject is more specific than the generic target.--cjllw ʘ  TALK 13:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone call them this? I think the entire universe, except apparently Hawaii itself, calls them Hawaiian shirts. The article should be moved. -Branddobbe 00:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Aloha Shirt seems to be the original term (see: Aloha Shirt Creator Chun Dies at 91, 7.6.2000), therefore the redirection from Hawaiian shirt is IMHO correct. Also this GOOGLE result answers the question "Does anyone call them this?" sufficiently. --ThT 02:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Original" doesn't mean correct. Replacing Aloha with Hawaiian in the search you provided brings up close to three times the number of hits; it is clearly the most commonly used term, and, as such, should be the title of the article. See Naming conventions: "Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize", "use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things", etc. -Branddobbe 01:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Contra: The term Hawaiian Shirt is less specific than Aloha Shirt. For this reason the first sentence specifies: "The Aloha shirt, is a style of dress shirt originating in Hawaii." For example many shirts with unspecific flower patterns are sometimes called Hawaiian. This might be the explanation of the higher GOOGLE number of hits. There is a separated entry in the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary for Aloha Shirt as well. Following the conventions Be Precise (when necessary) the term Hawaiian Shirt is the more ambiguous one and therefore Aloha Shirt the better choice. --ThT 23:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Oppose moving from "Aloha shirt" to anything else. Aloha shirt is the authentic name, like Kielbasa instead of Polish sausage, Emmental (cheese) instead of Swiss cheese, and Baguette instead of French bread.  That's what they call it in Hawaii, and it's the most authentic Hawaiian name.--Endroit 17:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

We think that the References are not within guidelines because one of them clearly links to a commercial site. Take a look at "Hawaiian Shirts - Aloha Shirts History". It links to hawaiian.com, can anyone tell me what hawaiian airlines has to do with Aloha shirts? Maybe reference something like History of Hawaiian Holoku attire by Linda Boynton Arthur, that would at least be more appropriate. Hawaiianshirts (talk) 20:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC) Remove the commercial link. Might have once been a valid link, if anyone wants to check the history. (Anon, 12/26/07) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.143.10 (talk) 20:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Question
Anyone know where you could get this exact shirt in the picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mp3 boy (talk • contribs) 00:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Aloha shirt/Archive 1


text:
Talk:Coldfire

VFD Result
The result of the VFD can be found here: Votes for deletion/Coldfire -- AllyUnion (talk) 01:45, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Coldfire


text:
Talk:Radioactive cloud

VFD Result
The result of the VFD can be found here: Votes for deletion/Radioactive cloud -- AllyUnion (talk) 01:46, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Radioactive cloud


text: User talk:83.108.221.8

title: User talk:83.108.221.8


text: User talk:68.161.191.144

title: User talk:68.161.191.144


text:
Makin Island

Makin Island may refer to:

Places

 * Butaritari, an atoll in Kiribati known to U.S. military forces during World War II as "Makin Atoll" and "Makin Island"
 * Makin (atoll), the local, and now preferred, name for an atoll in Kiribati adjacent to Butaritari, known to U.S. military forces during World War II as "Little Makin"

Ships

 * USS Makin Island (CVE-93), a United States Navy escort aircraft carrier in commission from 1944 to 1946
 * USS Makin Island (LHD-8), a United States Navy amphibious assault ship commissioned in 2009

title: Makin Island


text:
Keys to Ascension 2

Keys to Ascension 2 is the fifth live and sixteenth studio album by the English progressive rock band Yes. It was released as a double album in November 1997 by Essential Records as the successor to the previous live/studio album Keys to Ascension. After guitarist Steve Howe and keyboardist Rick Wakeman returned to the band in 1995, the group relocated to San Luis Obispo, California and started to write new material. The reunion of this particular line-up was promoted with three concerts at the city's Fremont Theater in March 1996, the five's first live performance together since 1979. Keys to Ascension 2 features the remaining half of the live set from the 1996 shows and five new studio tracks including two which marked a return to the group writing long-form pieces. It would ultimately serve as Wakeman's final studio album with the band.

Keys to Ascension 2 received mixed reviews from music critics. It reached No. 62 on the UK Albums Chart and No. 169 on the Billboard 200 in the United States. A promotional North American tour was set to start in June 1997, but was cancelled after Wakeman departed from the band due to scheduling conflicts. The studio material from the Keys to Ascension albums was compiled on Keystudio (2001), and both albums were reissued in their entirety in 1998 and 2010, the latter with the concert video as a bonus disc.

Background
In mid-1995, guitarist Steve Howe and keyboardist Rick Wakeman returned to the group, which had also comprised lead vocalist Jon Anderson, bassist Chris Squire, and drummer Alan White. The five assembled in San Luis Obispo, California to rehearse and record new studio material which included concerts at the city's Fremont Theater from 4–6 March 1996, the first live performance of this particular line-up since 1979. The first half of their live set from the 1996 shows, plus two new studio tracks, were released as Keys to Ascension in October 1996 by Essential Records.

By the time Keys to Ascension was released, the label had expressed a wish for the group to put out roughly 45 minutes of new studio material with the remaining unreleased live tracks from the 1996 concerts as a second installment of the Keys to Ascension series. The band agreed, and had a deadline to hand over the finished album by the end of November 1996 in exchange for a sum of money from the label that Christmas. Wakeman was "heavily against" the album's title due to his excitement over the quality of the new songs that Yes had recorded which he thought deserved to be released as a separate album.

Live tracks
Disc one contains the remaining unreleased live tracks from the three shows at the Fremont Theatre in March 1996. This includes material from Time and a Word (1970), The Yes Album (1971), Close to the Edge (1972), and Going for the One (1977).

Studio tracks
Disc two contains five studio tracks that were recorded in the course of a year from the fall of 1995. After promoting Keys to Ascension the group finalised the arrangements mainly from ideas that Anderson, Squire, and White had already put down and recorded the songs in November 1996. The band leased a building in San Luis Obispo that was once a bank and set up a recording studio inside that was later dubbed Yesworld Studio on the album's sleeve notes. Working with the band was Tom Fletcher, who was only available to oversee production of the live tracks as he had commitments with Steve Lukather. This prompted Squire to suggest Billy Sherwood, who had played additional guitars during Yes's 1994 tour, to complete production on the studio material and additional recording, engineering, and mixing. This was the first time Wakeman had worked with Sherwood, and the keyboardist praised Sherwood's attitude and contributions to the album. Wakeman was particularly pleased with the studio tracks on Keys to Ascension 2, rating them "light years" ahead of the studio material on its predecessor. He reasoned this down to the sense of maturity in the songs and the greater amount of input from the band in terms of what they and other members played, something that had not been done for a long time.

"Mind Drive" was originally a song that was rehearsed by the proposed supergroup XYZ featuring Squire, White, and guitarist Jimmy Page. "Children of the Light" was originally written by Jon and Vangelis in 1986 as "Distant Thunder". A demo version was recorded by Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe which was included as a hidden track on the 2011 reissue of Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe (1989). The lyrics to the song were printed on the band's 1991 tour book. The original version of "Children of the Light" included a keyboard introduction written by Wakeman entitled "Lightning", but it was removed prior to the album's release. In 1998, Howe said that the introduction was taken off following the group's overall dissatisfaction with it, an opinion that the record company also shared. The section was restored on the 2001 compilation album Keystudio, which combined the studio tracks from both Keys to Ascension albums. The version of "Children of the Light" on the compilation, however, has a verse removed.

Artwork
As with its predecessor, Keys to Ascension 2 features cover art by Roger Dean on an outer sleeve that fits around the package. On the sleeve, the image's predominant colour is magenta, but the booklet features the painting in its original blue colouration.

Release
The studio tracks from this album and Keys to Ascension were rereleased on Keystudio. The whole album was reissued in 2010 along with its earlier companion album Keys to Ascension and the concert video of the same name as part of the Keys to Ascension box set.

Track listing
Note: "Children of Light" is called "Children of the Light" on some pressings of Keys to Ascension as well as Keystudio.

Personnel
Credits are adapted from the album's 1997 liner notes.

Yes
 * Jon Anderson – vocals, guitars, harp
 * Steve Howe – 6- and 12-string electric and acoustic guitars, steel and pedal steel, 5-string bass, vocals
 * Chris Squire – bass guitar, vocals
 * Rick Wakeman – keyboards
 * Alan White – drums, vocals

Production
 * Yes – production
 * Billy Sherwood – production, recording, mixing
 * Tom Fletcher – live tracks recording
 * Kevin Dickey – Sonic Solutions digital editing
 * Joe Gastwirt – mastering at Ocean View Digital Mastering
 * Roger Dean – paintings, logos, lettering
 * Martyn Dean – packaging design
 * Gottlieb Bros./Yes Magazine – booklet design, photography

title: Keys to Ascension 2


text: Category:Serbian soldiers

title: Category:Serbian soldiers


text:
The Catch

The Catch may refer to:

Film and television

 * The Catch (American TV series), a 2016–2017 American mystery series
 * The Catch (British TV series), a 2023 British family drama series
 * The Catch (1961 film), by Nagisa Oshima
 * The Catch (1983 film), a Japanese film by Shinji Sōmai
 * The Catch (2017 film), a Canadian short film by Holly Brace-Lavoie

Music

 * The Catch (American band), a rock band from Seattle, Washington
 * The Catch (British duo), a new wave duo
 * The Catch (album), a 1984 album by Nazareth
 * The Catch, a band featuring Annie Lennox and Dave Stewart before they formed the Tourists

Baseball

 * The Catch (baseball), a defensive play by Willie Mays in the 1954 World Series
 * The Catch, a defensive play by Endy Chávez in Major League Baseball's 2006 National League Championship Series
 * The Catch, a defensive play by Chas McCormick in the 2022 World Series

Gridiron football

 * The Catch (college football), a winning touchdown reception by Jerry Butler of Clemson against South Carolina in 1977
 * The Catch (American football), a winning touchdown reception by Dwight Clark in the 1981 NFC Championship
 * The Catch, a reception by Alabama receiver Tyrone Prothro that was named 2006 ESPY Best Play of the Year
 * The Catch, Tony Gabriel's winning touchdown reception in the Canadian Football League's 64th Grey Cup in 1976

Other uses

 * "The Catch", a short story in Nadine Gordimer's 1957 collection The Soft Voice of the Serpent
 * "The Catch", an installation artwork by Thom Ross as a recreation of Willie Mays' famous catch
 * The Catch (novel), a 2014 novel by Taylor Stevens

title: The Catch


text:
Dispositive motion

In law, a dispositive motion is a motion seeking a trial court order entirely disposing of all or part of the claims in favor of the moving party without need for further trial court proceedings. "To dispose" of a claim means to decide the claim in favor of one or another party. As a lawsuit may comprise numerous claims made by and against numerous parties, not every dispositive motion seeks to dispose of the entire lawsuit. In the U.S., the most common type of dispositive motions seeking to dispose of the entire lawsuit are those for summary judgment. Many U.S. state jurisdictions also provide for a "partial summary judgment" or motion for "summary adjudication of issues" which only seeks to dispose of part of a lawsuit. See, e.g., California Code of Civil Procedure section 437c(f)(1). Regardless whether the dispositive motion is for summary judgment or adjudication, the motion must be supported by declarations under oath, excerpts from depositions which are also under oath, admissions of fact by the opposing party and other discovery such as interrogatories, as well as a legal argument (points and authorities). The other party may respond with counter-declarations, discovery responses, and legal arguments attempting to show that these issues were "triable issues of fact." If there is any question as to whether there is conflict on the facts on an issue, the summary judgment or adjudication must be denied regarding that matter.

In many cases, a decision on a dispositive motion is a prerequisite for appellate review. See, e.g., Wash. Rules of Appellate Procedure 2.2.

The two principal types of dispositive motions in contemporary American legal practice are the motion to dismiss (sometimes referred to as a demurrer in a minority of U.S. state jurisdictions) and the motion for summary judgment or summary adjudication of issues. A dispositive motion may also be used to request that an indictment be dismissed or quashed, or for judgment on pleadings. At least in some jurisdictions, a corporation's motion to terminate a shareholder's derivative suit is treated as a dispositive motion. See, e.g., Dreiling v. Jain, 151 Wn.2d 900, 93 P.3d 861 (2004).

title: Dispositive motion


text:
User talk:Suckmesaggytits

Your user name is offensive. Please change it, or you may be banned from the Wikipedia. ugen 64 01:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Suckmesaggytits


text: User talk:200.35.210.115

title: User talk:200.35.210.115


text:
Talk:List of cities in Afghanistan

Discussion from Cleanup/December

 * List of cities in Afghanistan - someone put a cleanup template on this, but it doesn't seem to have been reported here. I did some, but it needs alphabetising, dab'ing... how can a country of 16 million have so many "cities"? Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 09:50, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree - looks like someone has taken an atlas of the country and copied every settlement on the list!!! I have Googled and used two or three of the appropriate sites; plus I also used my own encyclopaedia (1966 version but what the heck!) and come up with some dozen names of cities (altho some of them are arguably so - I suppose local information might upgrade some towns.
 * I see that some on the huge list are already cross-referenced, so I will check back on those. The first two are no-nos however: Ahmadabad is in India, and Balkh is called a "small town" in its article!
 * I have reached the letter K and am going to give up!! This was a quite ridiculous exercise, must have taken hours to produce, and it is obviously a gazatteer of Afghanistan. What is more, once produced there was no attempt to do the exercise I have been doing, so many of the cross refs have nothing whatsoever to do with Afghanistan. Dalak is a Danish word; Divali is a well-known festival; Garmin is a US group of companies; Husayn is another spelling of Hussain; Jura are French mountains - and as for Islam ... words fail.
 * I don't want to scrap it, after all that work, but it really isn't a Wikipedia article, is it?Peter Shearan 16:28, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Then I suggest that the whole lot is scrapped and the considered list substituted Peter Shearan 11:26, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I may have broken all the rules, but have reduced the sheer volume of this article somewhat. I took out the first list -"the top ten" cities, which I found from a Googled website were out-of- date anyway - and produced a new article with a slightly altered title List: Cities in Afghanistan where there are now 32 large "places". Some of those on the original list are drastically changed - one is 11X as big! I have then re-titled the original article Places in Afghanistan and simply announced it as a gazetteer. I still think it is out of place here, but would appreciate another POV on that Peter Shearan 15:15, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I picked up on this... it looks consistent now. --Joy [shallot]   15:17, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * List of cities in Afghanistan I've started VFD because of the articles sheer volume. Please take another look at it and vote if you were involved in the page. --Banana04131 01:07, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect figures and list-order
World Gaztteer is not a reliable source that the contents of this article are based on. It is a private unit and not a formal or recognized research unit.

According to the Central Statistics Office of Afghanistan, the presented demographic figures in this article/list are not accurate and the list is in disorder.

Here are the figures according to CSA:

 * Kabul - 2,536,300 (and not 3,120,963 because it seems to be the population of Kabul Province. The total population of Kabul province according to CSA is 3,138,100)
 * Kandahar - 450,300
 * Herat - 349,000
 * Mazari Sharif - 300,600
 * Kunduz - 264,100
 * Taloqan (center of Takhar province) - 196,400
 * Puli Khumri (center of Baghlan province) - 180,0
 * Jalalabad - 168,600
 * Charikar (Parvan Province) - 153,500
 * Sheberghan (Jowzjan Province) - 143,900
 * Ghazni - 141,000
 * Sari Pul - 136,000

All these figures compromise both the Urban and Metropolitan populations. The figures are as of 2006 estimation.

According to CSA, Bamiyan and Balkh cities have respectively 73,200 and 105,300 populations, so the figures of World Gazetteer are completely inaccurate. I suggest to choose the reports of Central Statistics Office of Afghanistan as the reference. Ariana310 19:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Internal Contradictions
There is no doubt that the collection of accurate data is difficult for this subject. Nevertheless, even by WP′s highly uneven standards, this is a pretty unreliable article.

Look at the pictures on the right and you will see that Kandahar is the #3 city: the table on the left, however, states otherwise. Now place your cursor over Mazari Sharif and you will see, without even leaving the page, that that is also #3 city. Now put the cursor over Herat and you get yet another #3 city. Call it the Rule of Threes. 3 options - choose you own.

This article, and those of the cities themselves, purport to be supervised by two separate projects: Cities; and Afghanistan. Can neither come to a conclusion as to which source might be the more reliable, and why, and make sense of this? Protozoon (talk) 20:22, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:List of cities in Afghanistan


text:
Thergothon

Thergothon was a Finnish doom metal band which lasted from 1990 until 1993 and pioneered the funeral doom subgenre. They only released one demo, Fhtagn nagh Yog-Sothoth (1991), and one album, Stream from the Heavens (1994). Their sound was extremely slow and dirge-like in long pieces, which combined heavy guitar riffs, extremely deep death grunts and sparse lead guitar melodies. The band disbanded a year before the release of the album and its members focused on other projects.

Niko Sirkiä and Jori Sjöroos went on to form This Empty Flow, which marked a distinct stylistic departure from Thergothon. The project began as somewhat of a shoegaze band, taking cues from groups like Slowdive, but ended up as more in the area of trip hop.

Lately Sjöroos has gained reputation for composing songs for popular Finnish pop rock act PMMP.

Sirkiä, later known as Niko Skorpio, works as a visual artist and records experimental electronic music. He also used to run a record label called Some Place Else.

History
The band was founded in 1990 by vocalist Niko Skorpio, drummer Jori Sjöroos and guitarist Mikko Ruotsalainen as a death metal band, but soon became a doom metal band. In early 1991, Sami Kaveri was added as a second guitarist. A first demo recorded afterwards titled Dancing in the Realm of Shades was never officially released and the band made a new attempt in November 1991. This demo, titled Fhtagn nagh Yog-Sothoth, was released the same year in a limited edition of 600 copies and was licensed to the US and Poland. In the spring of 1992, the band gave two concerts in or near Turku, where they played an extremely slow version of Venom's "In League with Satan". The band itself did not find concerts as an appropriate presentation of the studio material.

Preparations for the debut album began in the summer of 1992. Sami Kaveri left the band at that time and the band focused entirely on the role of a studio band, neither playing live nor rehearsing for it. Through this concentration of roles and people, the roles gradually dissolved and the members of the band exchanged their instruments and experimented with new ones. After the band had signed with the Italian label Obscure Plasma Records and began recording Stream from the Heavens in autumn 1992; two of the six songs on it were new recordings of songs from Fhtagn-nagh Yog-Sothoth. After completing the recordings and selecting the cover for the debut, the group decided to disband in spring 1993. The release of the album was delayed until 1994 and it was highly neglected by the music press. With time however, it sold several thousand copies worldwide.

In 2009, Russian record label Solitude Productions released a tribute album titled Rising of Yog-Sothoth: A Tribute to Thergothon, which contains contributions from bands such as Worship, Evoken and Asunder, Mournful Congregation, Colosseum and Officium Triste.

Musical style
Thergothon's music was very slow with extremely deep guttural vocals, using heavy guitar riffs, very deeply tuned guitars and with few lead guitar melodies. In addition to death metal, the band also integrated influences from styles such as gothic rock, ambient and progressive rock. Cosmic horror author H. P. Lovecraft remained a prevalent influence throughout their discography, as evidenced by titles such as Fhtagn nagh Yog-Sothoth and The Unknown Kadeth in the Cold Waste.

Discography

 * Studio albums
 * Stream from the Heavens (1994)

 * Demos
 * Fhtagn nagh Yog-Sothoth (1991)

Last line-up

 * Niko Sirkiä (aka Niko Skorpio) - vocals, keyboards
 * Jori Sjöroos - drums
 * Mikko Ruotsalainen - guitar

Former members

 * Sami Kaveri - guitar

title: Thergothon