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Stutz Blackhawk

The Stutz Blackhawk is an American luxury car manufactured from 1971 through 1987. Other than the name, it bears no resemblance to the original Blackhawk (1929–1930). Prices ranged from US$22,500 to US$75,000. All early Blackhawks were coupes, but rare sedans were produced later. Convertible versions were called D'Italia and Bearcat. By 1976, Stutz had sold 205 Blackhawks, and about six a month were handbuilt in Italy and shipped to the U.S. By April 1980, 350 Blackhawks had been sold, and by the time production ended in 1987, approximately 500 to 600 cars had been manufactured.

History
The Stutz Motor Company was revived in August 1968 by New York banker James O'Donnell. He joined forces with retired Chrysler stylist Virgil Exner who designed the new Blackhawk. Exner's design included a spare tire that protruded through the decklid, a faux radiator shell-type chrome grille and freestanding headlamps. The new Blackhawk was prototyped by Ghia in Italy at a cost of over US$300,000. To offer exclusivity and still permit easy servicing in the U.S. a General Motors platform and engine served as the base for the custom built Italian body. The Blackhawk debuted in January 1970 at the Waldorf Astoria in New York City. Series production began in 1970; the original design (Series I) has a split windshield and was handmade at Officine Padane in Modena, Italy. From 1972, with the Series II, production commenced at Carrozzeria Saturn in Cavallermaggiore, near Torino, Italy. In 1973 the Series III was introduced; this version was kept in production until 1979. New series numbers were issued almost every year, ending with the Blackhawk VII, but there are no serious distinctions until the new, smaller Blackhawk VIII appeared for 1980. Mechanical changes mirroring those of the Pontiac Grand Prix took place, and the taillights were changed on occasion. For 1978 Pontiac chose to downsize the Grand Prix, but Stutz did not want to follow the same route and did not have a new design at the ready. Instead, they stocked up on a large number of 1977 Grand Prix and kept building the car for an additional two years.

In 1980, the Blackhawk VIII was presented. The basic design was reworked to suit the Pontiac Bonneville chassis (later on the Parisienne), which had a near-identical wheelbase to that of the earlier Grand Prix. In 1985, Stutz changed to using the Oldsmobile Delta 88/Buick LeSabre chassis - versions of the same General Motors B platform which had been used earlier, but no longer offered by Pontiac.

Design and manufacturing
With an extra heavy gauge steel body, the Blackhawk measures greater than 19 ft long. Production Blackhawks used Pontiac Grand Prix running gear, Pontiac's 7.5 L (455 in3) V8 engine, a GM TH400 three-speed automatic transmission, and rear-wheel drive. With its engine tuned to produce 425 hp and 420 lbft, the 5000 lb Blackhawk can accelerate to 60 mi/h in 8.4 seconds with a 130 mi/h top speed, delivering eight miles per gallon (30 L/100 km).

Later Blackhawks use Pontiac's 403 and 350 V8 engines. Also Ford, Chevrolet and Cadillac engines were used. The handbuilt Blackhawk received 18 to 22 hand-rubbed lacquer paint coats that took six weeks to apply. Total production time for each vehicle was over 1500 man-hours.

Special features
Exner's design included a spare tire that protruded through the trunk lid and freestanding headlamps. The fuel filler cap is positioned inside the spare tire on the first models. The interior includes 24-carat gold plated trim and bird's eye maple or burled walnut and redwood, Connolly leather seats and dash, instrument markings in both English and Italian, fine wool or mink carpeting and headlining, a cigar lighter, and a liquor cabinet in the back. There is a clock in the steering wheel hub on some later models. Other special features include automatic headlamp controls with twilight sensor, cornering lamps, bilevel automatic air conditioning, Superlift air adjustable shock absorbers, Safe-T-Track limited slip differential, an electric sunroof, cruise control, central locking, a burglar alarm, non-functional exhaust side pipes, and a high-end Lear Jet AM/FM eight-track quadraphonic sound system. The first models rolled on special 17-inch Firestone LXX run-flat tires and rims. These were taken off the market however as they turned out to be unsafe.

Price and value
The 1971 Blackhawk's factory price was $22,500. In 1974 the factory price had increased to $35,000. A year later, in 1975, the factory price was US$41,500. In 1976 a Blackhawk's base price was $47,500. And in 1981 the coupe sold for $84,500. The Stutz d’Italia was advertised as "the most expensive car sold today" at $129,500 at the same time as the Bearcat VI was offered for under half this at "only $64,165". Mint condition early generations (1971–1975) had an estimated value in 2002 of $32,000 to $35,000. After his death Wilson Pickett's well preserved 1974 Stutz Blackhawk was auctioned off in 2007 for US$50,600.

Notable Blackhawk owners
The very first Blackhawk sold was purchased by Elvis Presley on October 9, 1970, for $26,500. This was the second Blackhawk prototype, as built by Officine Padane (the first one, built by Ghia, was driven by James O'Donnell himself). Frank Sinatra had vied with Presley for the car. Sinatra was offered the second prototype on the condition that the distributor, Jules Meyers, could show the car at the LA Auto Show, and get publicity photos with Sinatra upon delivery. Sinatra declined, but Presley accepted and ended up with the car. Presley had it customized by George Barris after purchase. In January 1971, Presley had a mobile telephone installed for $1,467.50. In July 1971, a hired driver destroyed the car. Distributor Jules Meyers offered $1,000 for the wreck, but Presley declined and put the wrecked car in storage. It was only restored, with non-original parts, after his death and can now be seen at the Graceland museum. Presley bought at least three more Blackhawks and leased one other (he bought a black 1971 for himself and a white 1971 for his Las Vegas doctor, Elias Ghanem, and leased a white 1972 and a black 1973, his favorite Blackhawk, which he purchased at the end of the lease; this 1973 car is also on display at Graceland).

Other famous owners included Dick Martin (1971), Lucille Ball (who got her 1971 Blackhawk as a gift from her husband Gary Morton with a dash plaque saying I Love Lucy - Gary), Sammy Davis Jr. (who owned two 1972, one for himself and one for his wife), Dean Martin (who owned three and crashed his 1972 Blackhawk with vanity plate DRUNKY), Robert Goulet (1972), Evel Knievel (1974), Wilson Pickett (1974), Luigi Colani (1974), Lou Brock (1974), Johnnie Taylor (1975), Johnny Cash (1975), Curd Jürgens (1977), Erik Estrada (1978), Larry Holmes (1982), as well as Jerry Lewis, Charley Pride, Liberace, Willie Nelson, Isaac Hayes, Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, Tom Jones, Billy Joel, Elton John, Paul McCartney, Al Pacino, Wayne Newton, Barry White, and H.B. Halicki. The Shah of Iran reportedly owned twelve of them. Stutz collector Ken Ramsey owns at least ten Blackhawks.

Each car included a dash plaque naming its original owner.

Fictional owners

 * Nikki Sixx (played by Douglas Booth) in the 2019 Mötley Crüe biopic Netflix film The Dirt, drives a black 1974 Stutz Blackhawk.
 * Bill "Blaze" Blazejowski (played by Michael Keaton) in the movie Night Shift appears not to drive a Blackhawk but a 1981 Stutz IV-Porte sedan.
 * In the movie 8mm, James Gandolfini's character Eddie Poole has a black Stutz Blackhawk.
 * In the movie Never Die Alone, DMX's character King David owns a Stutz Blackhawk, which is then inherited by David Arquette's character Paul Paskoff.
 * In an episode of Dragonball GT features the appearance of an escape vehicle with a remarkable likeness to the Stutz Blackhawk.
 * In an episode of Columbo, ('Forgotten Lady', episode), John Payne's character Ned Diamond drives a white Stutz Blackhawk.
 * In another episode of Columbo, ('Murder Under Glass', 1978), Louis Jourdan's character, Paul Gerard, drives a two-tone black and grey Stutz Blackhawk.
 * In the original Gone in 60 Seconds (1974 film), a 1973 Stutz Blackhawk (codenamed 'Karen') was one of the 48 vehicles stolen to fulfill Maindrian Pace's contract.

title: Stutz Blackhawk


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ken Clinger

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 14:35, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ken Clinger
Another home-recorded/MP3-download only artist from the anon contrib of Beeg Srahka/B. Srahka vfd'd above. 23 hits for "Ken Clinger" bored. Niteowlneils 02:35, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * del. 04:19, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC).Sorry, forgot to sign. Mikkalai 04:58, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Above vote was by Mikkalai . JoaoRicardo 04:31, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, possible artist vanity. Megan1967 06:15, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, unless someone adds good, solid notable references. Zzyzx11 06:52, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for not meeting the Notability and Music Guidelines. Tuf-Kat 04:33, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Fioretti

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 14:35, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dan Fioretti
Another home-recorded/MP3-download only artist from the anon contrib of Beeg Srahka/B. Srahka vfd'd above. Less than 100 displayed hits. Niteowlneils 02:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete. No evidence of notability. JoaoRicardo 03:42, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * del. 04:20, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)Sorry, forgot to sign. Mikkalai 04:58, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Above vote was by Mikkalai. JoaoRicardo 04:25, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, possible artist vanity. Megan1967 06:11, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, unless someone adds good, solid notable references. Zzyzx11 06:49, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not notable. utcursch 13:30, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for not meeting the Notability and Music Guidelines. Tuf-Kat 04:32, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ellen Mizell

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 14:36, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ellen Mizell
Another home-recorded/MP3-download only artist from the anon contrib of Beeg Srahka/B. Srahka vfd'd above. 9 displayed hits for stella humpo Ellen. Niteowlneils 02:35, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete. No evidence of notability. JoaoRicardo 04:06, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * del. Mikkalai 04:58, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, unless someone adds good, solid notable references. Zzyzx11 06:51, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for not meeting the Notability and Music Guidelines. Tuf-Kat 04:33, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)


text:
Cup of Gold

Cup of Gold: A Life of Sir Henry Morgan, Buccaneer, with Occasional Reference to History (1929) was John Steinbeck's first novel, a work of historical fiction based loosely on the life and death of 17th-century privateer Henry Morgan. It centres on Morgan's assault and sacking of Panama City (the "Cup of Gold"), and the woman (La Santa Roja, or the Red Saint) he seeks there, reputed to be fairer than the sun.

Plot
The novel begins with young Henry on a Welsh farm, listening to Dafydd, an old farm hand who became a pirate and returned to tell of his adventures. The old farm hand tells Old Robert (with Henry listening) his colorful tales of the Caribbean, then leaves by morning. Those stories encourage Henry to leave home to seek his fortune. Henry becomes a famous pirate captain with two goals: to capture Panama from the Spanish, and to win the heart of the Red Saint (La Santa Roja). When Morgan captures Panama, the Red Saint is waiting inside the city. The city is easily taken, but the Red Saint puts up a fight. After Morgan and his crew raid the city, they leave with riches and no Red Saint. Morgan ends his career as a pirate and is knighted by the English King, who places Morgan in charge of disciplining other pirates.

Release details

 * 1929, Robert McBride & Co. (First edition) 1537 copies sold, yellow cloth binding
 * 1936, Covici-Friede (Second edition) Maroon cloth binding (939 copies)
 * 1938, Viking Press
 * 1976, Penguin Books
 * 2008, Penguin Books, introduction by Susan F. Beegel, ISBN 978-0143039457pp

title: Cup of Gold


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ray Carmen

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 14:37, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ray Carmen
Another home-recorded/MP3-download only artist from the anon contrib of Beeg Srahka/B. Srahka vfd'd above. 17 displayed hits for "Ray Carmen" kinski. Niteowlneils 02:35, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete. No evidence of notability. JoaoRicardo 03:49, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * delete. Mikkalai 04:59, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, possible artist vanity. Megan1967 06:13, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, unless someone adds good, solid notable references. Zzyzx11 06:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for not meeting the Notability and Music Guidelines. Tuf-Kat 04:33, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, agree with Tuk-Kat. —RaD Man (talk) 04:30, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)


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Apportionment in the European Parliament

The apportionment of seats within the European Parliament to each member state of the European Union is set out by the EU treaties. According to European Union treaties, the distribution of seats is "degressively proportional" to the population of the member states, with negotiations and agreements between member states playing a role. Thus the allocation of seats is not strictly proportional to the size of a state's population, nor does it reflect any other automatically triggered or fixed mathematical formula. The process can be compared to the composition of the electoral college used to elect the President of the United States of America in that, pro rata, the smaller state received more places in the electoral college than the more populous states.

After the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the EU in 2020, the number of MEPs, including the president, dropped to 705 but since the 2024 election, it increased to 720. The maximum number allowed by the Lisbon Treaty is 751.

Background
When the Parliament was established in 1952 as the 78-member "Common Assembly of the European Coal and Steel Community" the then-three smaller states (Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands) were concerned about being under-represented and hence they were granted more seats than their population would have allowed. Membership increased to 142 with the Assembly expanded to cover the Economic and Atomic Energy Communities. It then grew further with each enlargement, which each time allowing smaller nations to have greater proportion of seats relative to larger states.

Influence is proportional to seats-to-votes ratio and inversely proportional to Inhabitants to MEPs ratio.
 * Relative influence of voters from different EU member states (2024 - 2029)

Nice system (2003 – 2009)
The Nice Treaty provided for a maximum of 736 seats. In 2009, with about 500 million EU citizens, this meant that there were on average 670,000 citizens represented by each MEP. Some states divide the electorate for their allocated MEPs into sub-national constituencies. However, they may not be divided in such a way that the system would no longer be proportional.

The 2004 European Parliament election was the first conducted under the Nice Treaty, with 732 seats for the 25 member states.

The 2009 European Parliament election was conducted under the rules included in the Nice Treaty which provided for a maximum number of 736, although that figure had been breached on the accession of new members to the EU, these states being allowed parliamentary representation without a corresponding reduction in the number of MEPs allotted to other member states. This happened in 2007 on the accession of Romania and Bulgaria, when the number of seats temporarily increased to 785. It subsequently returned to 736 in the 2009 election.

Lisbon system (2009 – present)
Under the Lisbon Treaty, which first applied to the 2014 European Parliament election, the cap on the number of seats was raised to 750, with a maximum of 96 and a minimum of 6 seats per state. They continue to be distributed "degressively proportional" to the populations of the EU's member states.

There was controversy over the fact that the population figures are based on residents, not citizens, resulting in countries with larger disenfranchised immigrant populations gaining more under Lisbon than those with smaller ones. Italy would have been the greatest loser under the Lisbon system and sought the same number of MEPs as France and the United Kingdom. Italy raised the issue during treaty negotiations and succeeded in gaining one extra MEP (giving it the same as the UK) while the President of the European Parliament would not be counted as a lawmaker hence keeping the number of MEPs to the 750-seat limit.

2011 amendment
In 2011 an amendment, which came into force on 1 December, temporarily increased the Lisbon limit to 754. This allowed member states who gained seats under Lisbon to take them before the 2014 election, while allowing Germany which lost seats under Lisbon to retain them until the 2014 election. This amendment, in effect, institutes a transitional manner of distributing MEPs to take account of the fact that the 2009 European Parliamentary elections took place under the rules contained in the Nice Treaty and not in the Lisbon Treaty. That result means that member state that are to gain seats in parliament under the Lisbon rules may take them, but that Germany which loses three seats under the Lisbon rules keeps those seats until the next elections, due in 2014. As a result, Germany temporarily exceeds the maximum number of MEPs allocatable to a member state under the Lisbon Treaty by having 99 MEPs, three above the intended limit.

2013 amendment
Following the accession of Croatia on 1 July 2013 with 12 extra seats, the apportionment was amended for the 2014 elections, when 12 countries lost one seat (including Croatia itself).

2014 election
From October 2008, MEP Andrew Duff (ALDE, UK) has advocated within the European Parliament for a reform of EU electoral law for the 2014 elections, including the creation of a single constituency of 25 seats in which each European citizen would be entitled to vote on the basis of pan-European lists. He has been nominated rapporteur, as the European Parliament has the right of initiative in this field ruled by unanimity in the Council. After the 2009 election, Duff proposed a new version of his report, which was adopted by the parliamentary Committee on Constitutional Affairs (AFCO) in April 2011. However, the plenary session of the Parliament referred the report back to the AFCO committee in July 2011. A third version of the report was published in September 2011 and adopted by the AFCO committee in January 2012, but was withdrawn before being discussed in plenary in March 2012 for fear that it would likely be turned down.

On 13 March 2013 the European Parliament voted a new proposal updating seat assignments per country for 2014, taking into account demographic changes and bringing the total number of seats back to the nominal 751 enshrined in the Lisbon Treaty. The same document suggests the creation of a formal process "based on objective criteria to be applied in a pragmatic manner" for apportioning seats in future elections.

2019 election
The EU needed to revise the apportionment of seats in time for the next European Parliament election, expected to be held in May 2019, when the United Kingdom's 73 MEPs may have vacated their seats following Brexit. In April 2017, a group of European lawmakers discussed what should be done about the vacated seats. One plan, supported by Enrico Letta, Gianni Pittella and Emmanuel Macron, was to replace the 73 seats with a pan-European constituency list. Other options which were considered include dropping the British seats without replacement and reassigning some or all of the existing seats from other countries to reduce inequality of representation. A plan to reduce the number of seats to 705 was approved by the Parliament in February 2018. It involves redistributing 27 seats to under-represented members and reserving the remaining 46 for future EU expansions. A proposal by the Constitutional Affairs Committee to create a pan-member constituency was rejected by the Parliament at the same time. The proposed redistribution did not occur due to the Brexit extension until 31 October, and the allocation used was the same as in 2014. After Brexit took legal effect, the seat distribution was decided by the European Council. Those countries which were allocated additional seats elected MEPs who only took office after Brexit had taken effect.

2024 election
In February 2023, the AFCO committee of the European Parliament released a draft report (whose rapporteurs are Lóránt Vincze and Sandro Gozi) on the necessary changes to the composition of the European Parliament in order to respect the principle of degressive proportionality (enshrined in the TEU). The draft report suggested a new apportionnement which aimed at respecting the degressive proportionality while also resulting in no loss of seats for any Member State, therefore leading to an expansion in the number of MEPs, from 705 to 716. On 12 June 2023, the report was approved by the AFCO committee, with the apportionment being unchanged compared to the draft report. On 15 June 2023 the report was approved by the EP plenary.

In July 2023, the European Council put forward its own proposed apportionment for the tenth European Parliament, which would add 15 new MEPs and thus take the number of seats from 705 to 720. In this proposal, no Member State would lose any spots in the hemicycle and the countries gaining new seats would be as indicated in the table below under New allocation of seats (final decision for 2024).

On 15 September 2023, the European Parliament approved the apportionment proposed by the Council, with 515 votes in favor, 74 against and 44 abstentions.

Furthermore, this decision envisages the future (before the 2029-2034 parliamentary term) definition of "an objective, fair, durable and transparent seat distribution method implementing the principle of degressive proportionality, without prejudice to the institutions’ prerogatives under the Treaties".

Degressive proportionality breached.

Changes in membership
Source for MEP figures 1952–2004: European Navigator. Source for population figures and MEP figures for 2007 and 2009: European Parliament, full population figures. December 2011 figures reflect the members added to the European Parliament by the Protocol Amending the Protocol on Transitional Provisions (OJ 29.9.2010, C 263, p. 1) which came into force on 1 December 2011. Figures for 2019 follow parliamentary decision of February 2018.


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Talk:The Decline of the West

Older comments
My work on Spengler's book is dreadfully incomplete. I approached his book from an international relations POV, and so my summaries present only that side of his writing. I've given short shrift to his racial ideas, and more detailed comparative cultural studies (art, math, etc). Also, I've skipped over the individual characteristics of each Culture Spengler examines, presenting only bits of the general theory. Finally, my reading was too selective for me to lay down his general schema of stages for rise & decline. If anybody has read this book, or taken a class on it, I would very much appreciate your contributions. (Also: I have tried to keep the capitalization that Spengler uses for his concepts of Culture, Civilization, History, etc; I don't know if it should remain, but it's not accidental on my part). —thames 02:36, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Also: the German wikipedia article (see the interwiki link) has a good overview. Anyone who knows German, or who wants to use machine translation could harvest a lot of useful information to improve this article. —thames 04:30, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Sections of the article could definitely do with work, and as such should get the sect-stub template. But the article as a whole is far too massive and comprehensive to be considered a stub article. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 01:12, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This article definitely reads like it was written by "anybody [who] taken a class on it", instead of someone who actually has actually read the book. Its terrible -- just plain terrible.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.226.64.200 (talk) 03:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Please define these important terms
"The book includes the idea of the Muslims being Magian, Greeks being Apollonian, and the Westerners being Faustian ..." We should define these terms in The Decline of the West, and should probably include quick mentions in the other articles: e.g, "In The Decline of the West, Oswald Spengler used the term "Magian", meaning ...". -- Writtenonsand 18:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Magian links to Magus, which provides no definition or explanation of the term in a Spenglerian context.
 * Apollonian links to The Birth of Tragedy, with main article on this topic at Apollonian and Dionysian, neither of which provides more than the barest definition or explanation of the term.
 * Faustian links to the disamb page Faustian, which is probably somewhat confusing unless you already have some idea what Spengler is talking about, and which links to Faust, Goethe's Faust, and Faust Part One -- again, none of which are helpful to the newcomer to Spengler's ideas.
 * Writtenonsand, you're a 100% correc that these terms need to be properly defined. I have the book, but I'm in the middle of finals and can't get around to it for a while.—Perceval 01:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * completely agree, have added a section on Spenglerian Terms. FeydHuxtable (talk) 19:03, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Some more terms that need clarification badly (from the section "Democracy, media, and money"): How can the existence of "a Caesar" mean that no currency (money) can exist? This makes no sense unless these terms are both defined in a very specific and unconventional way. Further: Last, I hope someone with more insight can remedy these issues. clsc (talk) 20:57, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Money was linked to the article money but clearly has another meaning in the text than mere currency, so the article on money was misleading. Example quote: "money operates a democratic political system". What is the Spenglerian definition of "money" exactly?
 * Caesar and Caesarism - what is ment by these terms, exactly? What does eg. this mean: "Before such a leader, money collapses"?
 * the market is used in the section "Reception" - is that a synonym for "money" or something altogether different? What market, exactly? That of the marxists, that of the liberalists, or a third version?
 * Culture seems to be used both in a Spenglerian sense and in a traditional sense interchangeably throughout the article, and it's not easy to know when this or that meaning is intended.

Napoleonism
I was redirected (jumped) from "Napoleonism" to "The Decline of the West" although the entry has nothing to do with Napoleonism. Napoleonism was a political-social movement in Britain which looked favorably upon the accession of Napoleon's nephew to power in France. It was distinct from Bonapartism which is the term used to denote the actual advocacy of claims to the Imperial throne. Napoleonism was more of a social disposition than political advocacy and was symptomatic of an inclination for a radical and dramatic change in society and politics. I surmise some all-knowing "SuperEditor" resolved upon simplification decided that Spengler would cover any necessary discussion of Napoleonism [Spengler's treatment of Caesarism is only remotely linked to the meaning of Napoleonism]. It remains the most substantial weakness of the Wikipedia model that ignorance clothed in authority is enabled to determine what should be entered in this, the People's Encyclopedia. LAWinans (talk) 04:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

For further information on Napoleonism, see "The Napoleonists: A Study in Political Disaffection, 1760-1960" [Oxford 1970] LAWinans (talk) 01:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Blood
I've wrote a long description about how Spengler didn't primarily use the word Blood to refer to race feeling and Im going to edit a line in the article that could be read that way. This is important not just for scholarly accuracy as per comments above, but also as its been understood by serious people in the Financial world they could thwart Spenglers prophecy about their downfall by over promoting diversity and thus diluting any sense of racial identity. While diversity can immigration are good things I hope most can agree that is only true up to a point. For sure most folk who believe in free markets and who argue for open immigration do so as they feel its the right thing to do, or as they feel its in their economic interest as they will benefit from downwards pressure on unskilled labour rates. Yet from my experience of International Bankers I know some do indeed see racial identity as an enemy. You can get an idea of this from this Investment Bank Diversify and conquer report I dont consider that Money will succeed in delaying the downfall of their world view by lobbying for more immigration than is good for social relations  - if anything they will achieve the opposite. However they will cause much unnecessary social unrest by doing so. FeydHuxtable (talk) 19:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Prediction – worth not deleting?
I see a lot a value in retaining this section and clearly its attracted some interest since it was introduced. How is it original research? The editor who added the OR didnt explain, Im assuming he or she was referring to the lack of references on each prediction. I plan to later add a reference for each prediction showing where in the book Spengler made them. Essentially the section reports on Spenglers predictions, then references events which justified the predictions. Decline of the West is largely a prophetic book, Spengler said so himself. This aspect of the book surely warrants attention? Now granted this section does involve interpretation, but that is not grounds for deletion. You surely cant write an encyclopaedia without interpretation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by FeydHuxtable (talk • contribs) 20:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Prediction issues
The issue with these predictions is that, though they are often backed up with some reference, you could potentially do the same thing with the predictions of Nostradamus and the entire Apocalypse (or numerous other predictions). You could find interpretations of Hinduism, the Quran and Buddha's teachings that seemingly confirm Quantum mechanics, the expanding universe and cyclic universe. All of this can be backed up with some reference and a little creativity in your writing style. However, the same thing can essentially be done to back up exactly opposite views... In that, I view the Predictions section, at least in its current form, essentially Sophism. I don't say that Spengler was wrong, I don't say he was right, but I do think that while it may be no OR, the author it at least drawing his own, rather creative, conclusions from the facts presented in various hand-picked references. Therefore, the section needs to be updated with references to sources that elaborate the views of experts on this topic. 77.20.56.229 (talk) 12:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree absolutely: putting such figures as Hitler, Obama and Putin in the one list is but a most blatant example of this section's inadequacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kallikanzarid (talk • contribs) 03:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the above statement takes a narrow and simplistic view of Spengler's work. For example the predictions of Rule of the Rich, Caesarism, Cults of science, The last mathematical thinkers etc., denote very definite historical events. It may be an open question of debate whether these predictions correspond to present day reality, but it is quite apparent that these predictions have an obvious sense and it is not in fact possible to "back up the exactly opposite views". That said I do not approve of the predictions section given the form that it was presented in, as it appeared merely as a rationalization of various cross-section's of current events to fit Spengler's models. Perhaps it would make sense to make a section restating the more strongly formulated statements of Spengler's predictions, without passing comment on whether these are true or false (unless there are specific and credible sources that can be cited). [I don't know if the section containing the summary of the cyclical theory of civilization with the corresponding attributes already qualifies for this.]

Caesarism
There is a link entitled Caesarism which links here and which might at some point be deserving of its own stub. ADM (talk) 09:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Following on from the above points entitled "Caesarism" and "Prediction ...", I have added something on the main page under Spengler's influence on Francis Yockey - looking in particular at World War II (and I). If what I suggest is true, then predicting the future is rendered difficult by the fact that the West has not followed its natural or "normal" course (in the Spenglerian sense). DLMcN (talk) 19:41, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

"Fascist Book"
"(Considering that I was looking for this book on the list of books about fascism I considered it might be appropriate to add to the list of fascist books (which right now is very short). This book predicts fascism very well. )" I would object to this categorisation. For one, I do not think it actually does predict facism much at all, (at least intentionally), examine the Hour of Decision wherein he further clarifies that facism was not really what he had in mind, for the 20th century at least. If I remember correctly he argued that facism was at most a sort of precursor to the force-man "caesarism" he predicted for the 21st century. Threadnecromancer (talk) 01:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)Threadnecromancer

 * It could be argued that "The Hour of Decision" does relate quite strongly to the Fascism of the 1930s, by discussing the nature and possible relevance of that movement - so this book could presumably be included as "one which is about Fascism" (together with many other topics). "The Decline of the West" is of course a preliminary to that later book. --DLMcN (talk) 14:42, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

 * I suppose it depends upon how the "fascist book" category is defined, it appears to be a category dedicated exclusively to books written by fascists on the topic of fascism. So, Roger Eatwell's History of Fascism would not go on the list, but Imperium would (I agree that the list is rather small, and was actually going to add some undeniably fascist books like Imperium to it before discovering that Wikipedia does not in fact have an article on the book). Am I not comprehending what the fascist book category is intended for? Threadnecromancer (talk) 19:40, 20 December 2012 (UTC)Threadnecromancer.

 * OK then, going with your "...books written by Fascists on the topic of Fascism", there might be a case for arguing that Spengler displayed strong sympathies for (and approval of) the principal developments initiated by Fascism - although he did not actually regard himself as a Fascist as such. In any event, as you know, he paid tribute to Mussolini. So "The Hour of Decision" might qualify, if and when someone writes an article on it for Wikipedia. --DLMcN (talk) 17:12, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Spengler may have critizized Fascism 15 years after The Decline of the West over one thing or another, but the fact is, the book was one of the most important influences to the Conservative Revolution, the closest Weimar German equivalent to Italian Fascism, and a lot of research into Spengler and the book is based upon and debates that very fact, that Spengler thus was an important influence and figurehead for and within this German form of Fascism, in fact so much so that many scholars say it would never have happened without Spengler, or it would've looked very different. Considering Spengler's immense popularity especially within the first five years or so after the book's publication, many contemporary protagonists of the Conservative Revolution would've readily agreed to that assessment or did, in fact, attest to his book's importance to the movement. Denying this link to Fascism would be like glossing over the fact he's written the book altogether. And yes, all this still goes even though, paradoxically, Spengler had fallen out of favor quickly by many on the German right by 1932 already. The book still was, or had been, an important early, formative influence upon the Conservative Revolution. --2003:EF:170B:F970:84DC:6656:53AB:F8BC (talk) 14:18, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

What about Decline's influence on American writers?
Allen Ginsburg, William Burroughs, Jack Kerouac, Henry Miller, and (more reservedly) Saul Bellow all admired Spengler. And they were all more artistic than intellectual. It's not a big discovery...in the Influences links on some of the above writers Spengler is mentioned. But it could make for an intriguing addition to the legacy section for this article. Spengler has fared better with the imaginative types than with the professional historians. The Decline of the West is essentially an epic world poem and has often been read as such and therefore appealed to poets and novelists, especially American ones. SPOR — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.37.14.196 (talk) 04:46, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The above was written somewhat hastily. The article on Spengler reports on Decline's influence...but not so much the article on Decline. And what were the communal Beat Poet readings of Decline like? Is there any documentation of them? I'd like to know...it would make for some interesting reading to be certain. SPOR — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.37.14.196 (talk) 04:57, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Link to Spengler's civilization model
It appears that the link to the page on Spenglers's civilization model (<-- right link here) seems to be directed to an older, highly controversial version (see Talk page), with content that does not meet Wikipedia guidelines. Specifically a section called "The Prolegomenon" is the controversial one, and it seems to have been deleted and reverted multiple times (See Previous revision). I've corrected the link so as to link to a later version of that page, without this section (ie. the link above). clsc (talk) 21:25, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Capitalization of "Culture" and "Civilization"
Aside from some other cleanups, my recent edit involved the changing of capitalization of "Culture" and "Civilization" in order to comply with the specific meaning Spengler assigned these terms. This was already present in the article, but it was inconsistent and thus could appear confusing. I've made sure each and every instance was capitalized where I believe it was used in the Spenglerian sense, and uncapitalized where I believe it was meant in the more general sense. I didn't do this with the other terms, however tempted I was, since I didn't think it was necessary and I believe that he didn't load those terms up with so much specification. The only case where this didn't apply was in the instances wherein Spengler was quoted, since I felt it was best to leave the capitalization however he had it seeing as he was the one who used the terms so particularly.

If you believe this was unnecessary, or that all the instances should be capitalized or not capitalized, feel free to respond explaining why. Otherwise, I caution anyone and everyone editing (or reading) this article to be wary of the capitalization of these terms, since it appears Spengler meant them in a very specific sense. –Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 12:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on The Decline of the West. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060617230103/http://home.att.net:80/~a.f.aly/khaldun.htm to http://home.att.net/~a.f.aly/khaldun.htm

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Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 12:17, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Fixing things
I have around 100 pages left in Vol 2 of DOTW and during my reading experience I have engaged in numerous discussions and debates on the subject material, usually on platforms like 4chan's /lit/ and some small discord servers. When I am done with the book I will heavily re-edit the article, sadly it will still lack in content on Spengler's analysis of art and some historical events. This stems from me being an uncultured ruffian who knows little of the fine art of europe. Gastrointestinal Cancer Simulation (talk) 17:32, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Spengler's Civilization Chart
There used to be a Wikipedia page specifically dedicated to the graphical representation of Spengler's civilizations. This content was and is worth preserving, where has it gone? This is the type of content that deserves to be preserved and made easily available, and is ESSENTIAL to truly understanding the Decline of the West. At the very LEAST it deserves to be preserved on Wikimedia as well as being linked and easily available on the Spengler and Decline of the West articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.25.221.36 (talk) 16:43, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Adorno's review
Adorno's assessment of Spengler reads like enthusiastic praise for the most part in this article, which it definitely is not. Adorno considered Spengler a reactionary, anti-democratic, anti-humanist, obscurantist, irrationalist right-wing hate preacher. According to Adorno, Spengler saw the crisis symptoms of Capitalism and the German defeat in WWI, but blamed it on scapegoats such as liberalism, democracy, and minorities, as part of his overarching anti-liberal hatred for modernity, humanism, and democracy, entirely in the typical fashion of an authoritation personality. --2003:EF:170B:F970:84DC:6656:53AB:F8BC (talk) 14:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Reception Section Unbalanced
Why are 2 paragraphs allotted to the analysis of one critic not particularly well known in the context of the work at least relative to others? Reddeadfedsaid (talk) 06:54, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Claims by other authors; that Justin Popovich cites Spengler´s assessment that the Catholic and Orthodox will unite
I have looked through a web PDF copy of this book and couldn´t find this claim. That being said that doesn´t mean that it isn´t there because the control F had no impact on the web page because when I typed in the word "the" itself nothing showed up, I will include the link to the left: https://www.reissinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/St-Justin-Popovich-The-Orthodox-Church-and-Ecumenism.pdf. I would simply the person who uploaded this to show my where within the book this statements is? As for the following paragraph I will detete it because for one, the website it cites doesn´t work and secondly I don´t think that the main sections (excluding those which are for references), are supposed to contain links to other website, and besides what´s important about the website byzantineprophecy.org, who do they represent (of course they claim to represent the Orthodox Faith in some regard), but is it taken seriously by the mainstream of Orthodox Institutions. StrongALPHA (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Decline of the West


text:
North Hollywood shootout

The North Hollywood shootout, also known as the Battle of North Hollywood, was a confrontation between two heavily armed and armored bank robbers, Larry Phillips Jr. and Emil Mătăsăreanu, and police officers in the North Hollywood neighborhood of Los Angeles on February 28, 1997. Both robbers were killed, twelve police officers and eight civilians were injured, and numerous vehicles and other property were damaged or destroyed by the nearly 2,000 rounds of ammunition fired by the robbers and police.

At 9:16 a.m., Phillips and Mătăsăreanu entered and robbed Bank of America's North branch. The robbers were confronted by Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) officers when they exited the bank and a shootout between the officers and robbers ensued. The robbers attempted to flee the scene, Phillips on foot and Mătăsăreanu in their getaway vehicle, while continuing to exchange fire with the officers. The shootout continued onto a residential street adjacent to the bank until Phillips, mortally wounded, killed himself; Mătăsăreanu was incapacitated by officers three blocks away and bled to death before the arrival of paramedics more than an hour later.

Phillips and Mătăsăreanu had robbed at least two other banks previously, using similar methods involving using their automatic rifles to get past security doors, taking control of the entire bank, and firing weapons illegally obtained and capable of fully automatic fire. They were also suspects in two armored car robberies.

Standard-issue sidearms carried by most local patrol officers at the time were 9mm pistols or .38 Special revolvers; some patrol cars were also equipped with a 12-gauge shotgun. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried Norinco Type 56 rifles (a Chinese AK-47 variant) and a Bushmaster XM-15 Dissipator with a 100-round drum magazine, both of which had been illegally modified to be select-fire capable, as well as a Heckler & Koch HK91 rifle and a Beretta 92FS pistol. The robbers wore homemade body armor which successfully protected them from handgun rounds and shotgun pellets fired by the responding officers. An LAPD Metropolitan Division SWAT team eventually arrived with higher-caliber weapons, but they had little effect on the heavy body armor used by the two perpetrators. The SWAT team also commandeered an armored car to evacuate the wounded. Several officers additionally equipped themselves with rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their firepower in preparation for similar situations in the future.

Due to the large number of injuries and rounds fired, equipment used by the robbers, and overall length of the shootout, it is regarded as one of the most intense and significant gun battles in U.S. police history. Combined, the two robbers had fired approximately 1,100 rounds in total, while approximately 650 rounds were fired by police. Another estimate is that a total of nearly 2,000 rounds were fired collectively.

Backgrounds
Larry Eugene Phillips Jr. (born September 20, 1970) and Decebal Ștefan Emilian "Emil" Mătăsăreanu (born July 19, 1966) first met at a Gold's Gym in Venice, Los Angeles, California, in 1989. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu had mutual interests in weightlifting, bodybuilding, and firearms. Before meeting, Phillips was a habitual offender, responsible for multiple real estate scams and counts of shoplifting. Mătăsăreanu, born in Timișoara, Romania to parents who relocated to Los Angeles in 1974, was a qualified electrical engineer and ran a relatively unsuccessful computer repair business.

On July 20, 1993, Phillips and Mătăsăreanu robbed an armored car outside a branch of FirstBank in Littleton, Colorado.

On October 29, they were arrested in Glendale, northeast of Los Angeles, for operating a stolen vehicle. A subsequent search of their vehicle—after Phillips surrendered with a concealed weapon—found two semi-automatic rifles, two handguns, more than 1,600 rounds of 7.62×39mm rifle ammunition, 1,200 rounds of 9×19mm Parabellum and .45 ACP handgun ammunition, radio scanners, smoke bombs, improvised explosive devices, body armor vests, and three different California license plates. Initially charged with conspiracy to commit robbery, both served 100 days in jail and were placed on three years of probation due to plea bargaining. After their release, most of their seized property was returned to them, except for the confiscated firearms and explosives.

On June 14, 1995, Phillips and Mătăsăreanu ambushed a Brink's armored car in Winnetka, Los Angeles, killing one guard, Herman Cook, and seriously wounding another. In May 1996, they robbed two branches of Bank of America in the San Fernando Valley area of Los Angeles, stealing approximately US$1.5 million. The pair were dubbed the "High Incident Bandits" by investigators due to the weaponry they had used in three robberies prior to their attempt in North Hollywood.

Preparation
On the morning of February 28, 1997, after months of preparation that included extensive reconnoitering of their intended target—the Bank of America branch located at 6600 Laurel Canyon Boulevard—Phillips and Mătăsăreanu armed themselves with a semi-automatic HK-91 and several illegally converted weapons: two Norinco Type 56 S rifles, a fully automatic Norinco Type   56 S-1, and a fully automatic Bushmaster XM15 Dissipator, which has been equipped with a triangular, M16A1-style handguard.

The robbers allegedly filled a jam jar with gasoline and placed it in the back seat with the intention of setting the car and weapons on fire to destroy evidence after the robbery. Phillips wore roughly 40 lb of equipment, including a Type IIIA bulletproof vest and groin guard; a load bearing vest with multiple military ammo pouches; and several pieces of homemade body armor created from spare vests, covering his shins, thighs, and forearms. Mătăsăreanu wore only a Type IIIA bulletproof vest, but included a metal ballistic plate to protect vital organs. Additionally, each man had a watch sewn onto the back of one glove, in order to monitor their timing. Before entering, they took the barbiturate phenobarbital, prescribed to Mătăsăreanu as a sedative, to calm their nerves. The Forensic Toxicology Laboratory of the Coroner's Office later also found ephedrine and phenylpropanolamine in Phillips' blood, and phenytoin in Mătăsăreanu's blood.

Bank robbery
Phillips and Mătăsăreanu, driving a white 1987 Chevrolet Celebrity, arrived at the Bank of America branch at the intersection of Laurel Canyon Boulevard and Archwood Street in North Hollywood around 9:16 a.m., and set their watch alarms for eight minutes, the police response time they had estimated. To come up with this timeframe, Phillips had used a radio scanner to monitor police transmissions prior to the robbery. As the two were walking in, they were spotted by two LAPD officers, Loren Farell and Martin Perello, who were driving down Laurel Canyon in a patrol car. Officer Farell issued a call on the radio: "15-A-43, requesting assistance, we have a possible 211 in progress at the Bank of America."

As they entered the bank, each armed with a Norinco Type 56 S-1 rifle, Phillips and Mătăsăreanu forced a customer leaving the ATM lobby near the entrance into the bank and onto the floor. A security guard inside saw the scuffle and the heavily armed robbers and radioed his partner in the parking lot to call the police; the call was not received. Phillips shouted, "This is a fucking hold-up!" before he and Mătăsăreanu opened fire into the ceiling in an attempt to scare the approximately thirty bank staff and customers and to discourage resistance.

Mătăsăreanu shot open the bulletproof door (which was designed to resist only low-velocity rounds) and gained access to the tellers and vault. The robbers forced assistant manager John Villigrana to open the vault and begin to fill their money bag. However, due to a change in the bank's delivery schedule, the vault contained significantly less than the $750,000 the gunmen had expected.

Mătăsăreanu, enraged at this development, argued with Villigrana and demanded more. In an apparent show of frustration, Mătăsăreanu then fired a full drum magazine of 75 rounds into the bank's safe, destroying much of the remaining money. He then attempted to open the bank's ATM, but due to a change in policies, the branch manager no longer had access to the money inside. Before leaving, the robbers locked the hostages in the bank vault. In the end, the two left with $303,305 and three dye packs which later exploded, ruining the money they stole.

Shootout
Outside, the first-responding officers heard the gunfire within the bank and made another radio call reporting "shots fired" before taking cover behind their patrol car. While the robbers were still inside, additional North Hollywood Division patrol and detective units arrived and took strategic positions at all four corners of the bank, establishing a perimeter around it. At approximately 9:24 a.m., Phillips exited through the north doorway and after spotting a police cruiser 200 ft away, opened fire for several minutes. In the initial shooting, Phillips wounded Sgt. Dean Haynes, Officers Martin Whitfield, James Zaboravan, and Stuart Guy, and Detectives William Krulac and Tracey Angeles, as well as three civilians that had taken cover behind Sgt. Haynes' patrol car. Phillips also fired at an LAPD helicopter flown by Charles D. Perriguey Jr. as it surveyed the scene from above, forcing it to withdraw to a safer distance. Phillips briefly retreated inside, then reemerged through the north doorway, while Mătăsăreanu exited through the south exit.

Phillips and Mătăsăreanu continued to engage the officers, firing sporadic bursts into the patrol cars that had been positioned on Laurel Canyon in front of the bank and in the parking lot across the street. Officers, who were mostly armed with then-standard issue Beretta 92F/FS 9mm pistols, Smith & Wesson Model 15 .38 Special revolvers, and 12-gauge Ithaca Model 37 pump-action shotguns, continued to return fire at both robbers, but found their handguns and shotguns would not penetrate the body armor worn by Phillips and Mătăsăreanu. This was compounded by the fact that most of the LAPD officers' service pistols had insufficient range at longer distances, where most officers found themselves positioned relative to the bank entrance. An officer was heard on the LAPD police frequency approximately 10 to 15 minutes into the shootout, warning other officers that they should "not stop [the getaway vehicle], they've got automatic weapons, there's nothing we have that can stop them." Additionally, the officers were pinned down by the heavy sprays of gunfire coming from the robbers, making it extremely difficult to attempt a head shot with their handguns. Several officers acquired five AR-15-style rifles from a nearby gun store to combat the robbers. Two locations adjacent to the bank's north parking lot provided good cover for officers and detectives. Police likely shot Phillips with their handguns while Phillips was still firing and taking cover near four vehicles adjacent to the north wall of the bank. One location that Officer Richard Zielenski of Valley Traffic Division effectively used for cover was the adjacent Del Taco restaurant's west wall, 351 ft from Phillips. Zielenski fired 86 9mm rounds at Phillips and is believed to have hit Phillips during their exchange. Zielenski was also able to use this position to draw Phillips' fire away from Sgt. Haynes and Officer Whitfield, who were both wounded and had only marginal cover behind trees across Laurel Canyon Blvd. The other location that proved advantageous for the LAPD was the backyard of 6641 Agnes Avenue. A cinder block wall provided relative cover for several detectives shooting at Phillips with their 9mm pistols. Detective Vince Bancroft and Detective Kevin Harley in particular, were able to position themselves behind cover and fire between 15 and 24 rounds at Phillips, from a distance of approximately 55 ft. After Mătăsăreanu backed the Chevrolet Celebrity out of the handicapped space in the north parking lot, Phillips received a gunshot wound to his left wrist, based upon helicopter news footage that showed him react to pain.

At the same approximate time, LAPD gunfire struck the Heckler & Koch rifle that Phillips was firing, rendering it inoperable with a penetration to the receiver. Phillips discarded it and rearmed himself with another assault rifle from the trunk of the sedan.

Arrival of SWAT team
After LAPD radio operators received the second "officer down" call from police at the shootout, a tactical alert was issued. An LAPD Metropolitan Division SWAT team (Donnie Anderson, Steve Gomez, Peter Weireter, and Richard Massa) arrived 18 minutes after the shooting had begun. They were armed with AR-15s, and wore running shoes and shorts under their body armor, as they had been on an exercise run when they received the call. Upon arrival, they commandeered a nearby armored car (driven by Hector Quevedo and David Campbell), which was used to extract wounded civilians and officers from the scene.

Deaths of the gunmen
While still in the parking lot, Mătăsăreanu was shot in the right buttock, the right leg, and the left forearm. A fourth projectile then lacerated his upper right eye socket and prompted him to duck behind the hood of the getaway car in shock; he subsequently abandoned his duffle bag of money, entered the getaway vehicle, and started the engine. Phillips retrieved the HK-91 from the open trunk and continued firing upon officers while walking alongside the sedan, using it for cover. As Phillips approached the passenger's side of the getaway vehicle, he was hit in the shoulder and his rifle was struck in the receiver and magazine by bullets fired by police. After firing a few more shots with one arm, Phillips discarded the HK-91 and retrieved the Norinco Type 56 before exiting the parking lot and retreating onto the street while Mătăsăreanu drove down the road.

At 9:52 a.m., Phillips turned east on Archwood Street and took cover behind a parked semi-truck where he continued to fire at the police (Lt. Michael Ranshaw, and Officers Conrado Torrez, John Caprarelli, and Ed Brentlinger) until his rifle jammed. Unable to clear the jam because of a gunshot wound to his left wrist, he dropped the rifle and drew a Beretta 92FS pistol, which he began firing. He was then shot in the right hand by Officer Conrado Torrez, causing him to drop the pistol. After retrieving it, he placed the muzzle under his chin and fired. As he fell, Officer John Caprarelli shot him in the upper torso, severing his spine. Either bullet may have been fatal. Officers across the street continued to shoot Phillips' body several times while he was on the ground. After the firing had stopped, officers in the area surrounded Phillips, handcuffed him (though obviously deceased at this point, it was still standard procedure for police to arrest a criminal of his severity as if he were alive) and removed his ski mask. Mătăsăreanu's vehicle was rendered inoperable after two of its tires were shot out and the windshield covered in bullet holes. At 9:56 a.m., he attempted to carjack a yellow 1963 Jeep Gladiator on Archwood by shooting at the driver, who fled on foot, three blocks east of where Phillips died. He quickly transferred all of his weapons and ammunition from the getaway car, but was unable to operate the Jeep due to the driver engaging the electrical kill switch before fleeing. As KCBS and KCAL helicopters hovered overhead, a patrol car driven by SWAT officers Donnie Anderson, Steve Gomez, and Richard Massa quickly arrived and stopped on the opposite side of the truck to where the Chevrolet was stopped. Mătăsăreanu left the truck, took cover behind the original getaway car, and engaged them in two-and-a-half minutes of almost uninterrupted gunfire. Mătăsăreanu's chest armor deflected a double tap from SWAT officer Anderson, which briefly winded him before he continued firing. Anderson fired his AR-15 below the cars and wounded Mătăsăreanu in his unprotected lower legs; he was soon unable to continue and put his hands up to show surrender.

Ambulance personnel were following standard procedure in hostile situations by refusing to enter "the hot zone", as the area was not cleared and Mătăsăreanu was still considered to be dangerous. The police radioed for an ambulance, but Mătăsăreanu, loudly swearing profusely and still goading the police to shoot him, died before the ambulance and EMTs were allowed to reach the scene almost 70 minutes later. During a later lawsuit against retired policemen John Futrell and James Vojtecky and the city, jurors heard testimony that involved an ambulance crew that arrived but left without Mătăsăreanu after Vojtecky allegedly told the crew to "get the (expletive) out of here." During the trial, Vojtecky testified he said something similar. The ambulance driver testified he believed he was in danger by being in the area. The officers testified they tried to get the ambulance to come back or to get another one, but the plaintiffs focused on a point at which Futrell canceled an ambulance call and told the dispatcher, "I have no officers or citizens down, only a suspect." Later reports showed that Mătăsăreanu had been shot 29 times in the legs and died from trauma due to excessive blood loss from two gunshot wounds in his left thigh.

Most of the incident, including the death of Phillips and surrender of Mătăsăreanu, was broadcast live by news helicopters, which hovered over the scene and televised the action as events unfolded. Over 300 law enforcement officers from various forces had responded to the citywide tactical alert. By the time the shooting had stopped, Phillips and Mătăsăreanu had fired about 1,100 rounds, approximately a round every two seconds.

Weapons and armor
An inventory of the weapons used:
 * A Bushmaster XM-15 converted illegally to fire full auto with two 100-round Beta Magazines and fitted with a M16A1-style handguard
 * A Heckler & Koch HK-91 semi automatic rifle with several 30-round magazines
 * A Beretta 92FS Inox with several magazines
 * Three different civilian-model Kalashnikov-style rifles converted illegally to fire full auto with several 75- to 100-round drum magazines and 30-round box magazines

It was speculated during news reports that Phillips had legally purchased two of the Norinco Type 56s and then illegally converted them to be fully automatic. However, as Phillips was a convicted felon, it was not possible for him to legally purchase firearms.

The two well-armored men had fired approximately 1,100 rounds, while approximately 650 rounds were fired by police. Following their training, the responding patrol officers directed their fire at the "center of mass", or torsos, of Mătăsăreanu and Phillips. However, aramid body armor worn by Phillips and Mătăsăreanu covered all of their vitals (except their heads), enabling them to absorb pistol bullets and shotgun pellets, while Mătăsăreanu's chest armor, thanks to a steel armor plate, successfully withstood a hit from a SWAT officer's AR-15. The service pistols carried by the first responding officers were of insufficient power and used the wrong type of ammunition for penetrating even pistol-rated soft body armor. Furthermore, the police were pinned down by fully automatic suppressive fire, making it difficult for them to execute the type of well-aimed return fire that would be required to attempt head shots. Phillips was shot 11 times, including his self-inflicted gunshot wound to the chin while Mătăsăreanu was shot 29 times.

Casualties
Twelve police officers and eight civilians were injured and the two suspects died in the shootout.

Police Officers

 * Sergeant Larry "Dean" Haynes was hit in the left shoulder
 * Officer Martin Whitfield was shot and seriously wounded four times in the left arm, right femur and chest
 * Officer Conrado Torrez was grazed in the right side of the neck
 * Officer James Zboravan was shot twice and seriously wounded in the lower back, hip and thigh
 * Detective William "John" Krulac was hit in the right ankle
 * Detective Tracey Angeles was grazed in the stomach and buttock
 * Officer Stuart Guy was hit twice in the right femur and right forearm
 * Detective Earl Valladares was hit in the head by flying debris
 * Officer Ed Brentlinger was hit by gunfire and by concrete fragments on his face and left forearm
 * Officer William Lantz was hit in the right knee
 * Officer John Goodman was hit by flying glass and shrapnel
 * Officer David Grimes was injured in a traffic accident

Civilians

 * Mildred Nolte was struck across the face
 * John Villigrana was struck across the head by the stock of an assault rifle
 * Javier Orozco was struck across the face
 * Barry Golding was hit by flying glass and shrapnel
 * Tracy Fisher was hit in the left ankle
 * Michael Horen was hit in the left side of the chest
 * Jose Haro was hit by flying glass and shrapnel
 * William Marr was hit by glass and shrapnel fragments in the right arm, left temple and nose

Suspects
Both perpetrators sustained numerous injuries from shrapnel and non-lethal gunshot wounds, only the fatal wounds are mentioned.
 * Larry Phillips Jr. committed suicide via a gunshot to the head from his handgun
 * Emil Mătăsăreanu was shot 29 times in both legs and died from blood loss

Aftermath

The shootout contributed to motivating the arming of rank-and-file police officers in Los Angeles and nationwide with semi-automatic rifles.

The ineffectiveness of the standard small-caliber police pistols and shotguns in penetrating the robbers' body armor led to a trend in the United States toward arming selected police patrol officers, not just SWAT teams, with heavier firepower such as semi-automatic AR-15-style rifles. SWAT teams, whose close-quarters battle weaponry usually consisted of submachine guns that fired pistol cartridges such as the Heckler & Koch MP5, began supplementing them with AR-15 rifles and carbines.

On April 17, 1997, police raided a house in Anaheim traced to Phillips and Mătăsăreanu. Among the items seized included incendiary 7.62×39mm ammunition, flak jackets and ballistic helmets, approximately $400,000 in stolen cash and various firearms. One particular firearm—a short-barreled AR-15 with an aftermarket red dot sight—was later released from evidence for use by a law enforcement agency.

Seven months after the incident, the Department of Defense gave 600 surplus M16 rifles to the LAPD, which were issued to each patrol sergeant; LAPD patrol vehicles began carrying AR-15s as standard issue, with bullet-resistant Kevlar plating in their doors as well. Also as a result of this incident, LAPD authorized its officers to carry .45 ACP caliber semi-automatic pistols as duty sidearms, specifically the Smith & Wesson Models 4506 and 4566. Prior to 1997, only LAPD SWAT officers were authorized to carry .45 ACP caliber pistols, specifically the M1911A1 .45 ACP semi-automatic pistol.

On June 12, 1998, LAPD Chief of Police Bernard C. Parks released to the Board of Police Commissioners a memorandum detailing his review of officers' use of force during the February 28, 1997 North Hollywood shootout. The memorandum contains many details about the shootout including badge numbers of officers and detectives, where they positioned themselves in the perimeter around the robbers with distances of fire, and how many rounds they fired from their weapons. Parks commended department personnel for their actions to "distract" the robbers and "obstruct" the robbers from attempting to evade police. The memorandum lists the injuries of all officers who received injuries at the hands of the robbers.

A lawsuit on behalf of Mătăsăreanu's children was filed by lawyer Stephen Yagman against members of the LAPD (Detective James Vojtecky and Officer John Futrell), claiming Mătăsăreanu's civil rights had been violated and that he was allowed to bleed to death. The lawsuit was tried in United States District Court in February and March 2000, and ended in a mistrial with a hung jury. The suit was later dropped when Mătăsăreanu's family agreed to dismiss the action with a waiver of malicious prosecution.

The year following the shootout, 18 officers of the LAPD received the departmental Medal of Valor for their actions, and met President Bill Clinton. In 2003, a film about the incident was produced, titled 44 Minutes: The North Hollywood Shoot-Out. In 2004, the Los Angeles Police Museum in Highland Park opened an exhibit featuring two life-size mannequins of Phillips and Mătăsăreanu fitted with similar armor and clothing they wore, and weaponry they used. Also on display at the museum is the robbers' getaway car and Officer Martin Whitfield's LAPD squad car.

In popular culture
The incident has since inspired and influenced many pieces of media, such as films and songs. It has also been covered and portrayed in several television documentaries.
 * 211 – 2018 York Shackleton film loosely based on this event, starring Nicolas Cage
 * 44 Minutes: The North Hollywood Shoot-Out – 2003 made-for-television film about a semi-fictionalized version of this event
 * North Hollywood Shootout (album) - album by Blues Traveler based on this event
 * "44 Minutes" – song by American metal band Megadeth based on this event
 * Grand Theft Auto V – 2013 video game containing a mission, "The Paleto Score", loosely based on this event
 * Casefile True Crime Podcast – Case 18: The North Hollywood Shootout covers this event
 * S.W.A.T. – 2003 film starring Colin Farrell and Samuel L. Jackson, with an opening scene loosely based on this event
 * Zero Hour – 2004 docudrama TV series features and portrays this event in the fifth episode of the third season
 * Shootout! - 2005 documentary series featured on The History Channel covers and portrays this event in the first season

title: North Hollywood shootout