text:
Talk:Bektashi Order

Untitled
This page should be renamed "Bektashi Order of Dervishes". Either that or "Bektashi Islam". In addition it should be accesible by both Bektashi and Bekteshi spellings as the original Albanian can be translated differently. freestylefrappe 02:18, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

 * In Albanian it's bektashi, but I don't see why couldn't have a redirect. If you want to move it feel free, I just picked the most common name. Dori | Talk 03:51, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

 * I would if I knew how... freestylefrappe 00:54, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

Bektashi are not Sufi order. Sufi are Mevlevi Order

I can add some things I know about Bektashi similiarities to other religions but it would be helpful if it was re-termed by someone that knows what and how Bektashi see it. Example: confession was clarified to read, "yearly confession to a baba". The names of the rites that Bektashi do would be better named by bektashi names. I don't know them.

Baptism was taken out by the next edit. Is this untrue?

Other similiarities I will add to the article with input from others:

Shared reverence for Cosmas of Aetolia (Shen Kosma or Choban Baba) and Spyridon (Sari Salltik) as well as many saints with Albanian Orthodox Christians.

Religious imagery of saints.

Secretive baptism in water mixed with the essence of roses. Those who go through it don't say what goes on.

The use of the Christian Gospel of John.

The use of the greeting, "the Lord is risen." on Christian easter.

Some Bektashi(s)? claim lineage to Adam through Seth.

I wanted to get feedback from others before putting this in the article.

Bektashi similarities
I think too much has been made in the past regarding alleged borrowings or similarities with faith traditions outside of Islam. As a Bektashi, I can assure you that every aspect of Bektashi thought can be backed up with some sort of Islamic precendent. For instance there is no such practice of “Baptism” in Bektashism, unless the aspirant’s making ghusl and wudu’ right before initiation is considered as such. The popular use of images of Imam Ali, the Twelve Imams and other saintlu personages is widespread throughout the Shi’i world and it appears to be something of a more modern phenomena and originating from Turkey. I know of no Bektashi ritual that utilizes amy of the previously revealed scriptures, although mention is often made in Bektashi and Alevi poetry of the “Four Books” (the Torah, Psalms, Gospel, Qur’an). I have never heard of, or experienced, Bektashis using the greeting "the Lord is risen." on Christian easter, nor have I heard of any claims to a primordial lineage that goes back to Seth, other than ones found in traditional Islamic legends. The phenomenon of “saintly borrowings” is, however, wellknown, and Hasluck made a determined study of it at the start of the last century. However, it must be known that these saints are venerated as Muslim holy men (and women) not as Christian ones.

And, yes, the Bektashis have traditionally been seen by Muslims as being a Sufi order, although in post-WWII Albanian and the Balkans it has evolved more into a sect rather than and order.

Humor & Legacy
May I learn what was "racist" in the sample jokes I put in Humor & Legacy section and why they were deleted? I can't believe this is serious. I am strongly offended with this meaningless accusation. I guess you consider them offensive against sunni muslims, but they are not considered offensive by sunni muslims in Turkey, these jokes are also common among them. Moreover, bektashis and sunni muslims share the same religion, ethnicity, and culture, so there is no western-sense "racial" discrimination between them. Even if we assume that the jokes could be considered offensive today from a universal perspective (which I don't agree as a muslim), this wouldn't make inclusion of them in an encyclopedia "racist", because they tell something about the culture and its history. Censoring these jokes simply means ignoring the culture, which is indeed anti-democratic, let alone being unrealistic. Will we delete the article about "Satanic Verses" because it is considered offensive by many muslims? Whatever your response is to my opinions, regardless of how we end up with this article, I am expecting an apology for the "racism" comment. It should not be this easy to label people as racist. I recommend Freestylefrappe's version be kept with the addition of two sample jokes, which were deleted by them. The text of the jokes could also be revised to remove any language that can be considered offensive. AldirmaGonul 04:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Some links to sample Bektashi jokes, from Alevi/Bektashi websites:

http://www.bektashi.net/beliefs-jokes1.html http://whalesoundervish.blogspot.com/2005/08/bektashi-jokes.html http://www.musaeroglu.de/humor.html http://www.alevibektasi.org/xalevis1.htm AldirmaGonul 04:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi, I just tried those links and unfortunately, 3 are broken. Only the 4th link is still working. I'm not gonna judge whether they're appropriate here, though.  Thanks.  99.9.112.31 (talk) 03:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)NotWillDecker

 * The jokes you posted were deleted because you do not put "jokes" on a religious article. Thats like putting black jokes on the African American article. I was referring to the article as a whole as racist, though your edits seem highly suspect. freestylefrappe 21:19, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe that the jokes are "censored" because of religious intolerance. Religion is not only about philosophy and beliefs, it is also about culture, and these jokes are an important part of the Bektashi culture. Anybody, who has some knowledge about the interaction of Sunni and Alevi/Bektashi muslims in Ottoman Empire and Turkey will agree that there is no parallelism between these jokes and black jokes, simply because these jokes are a means of challenging opression rather than opressing other people. I consider the deletion of these jokes as an act of supressing alternative beliefs and cultures. It is amazing to see that the Bektashi culture is threatened to be supressed even in a diverse international enviroment today. I am also uncomfortable with your attitude of insisting on accusing me of racim. I don't think you are listening to me and we will able to reach a consensus together, so I will request mediation. I will also report your offensive attitude. AldirmaGonul 21:52, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Those jokes are great and should be included! Sam Spade 00:36, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

They are not "my" jokes, they belong to the Bektashi culture. I provided links to many websites they are full of samples of these jokes. All of these websites are devoted to the Bektashi culture. They wouldn't put them there if they were "inappropriate" or irrelevant to their culture. I don't know what you know about Bektashi culture, but if this whole thing is about those stories being not confirmant of what you understand from religion, you don't have any right to censor them. Because this is our culture, this is our understanding of religion, and we will not let our way of looking at things suppressed anymore. I will also include a section about Bektashi poetry in there, and probably you won't be able to stand what's in that poetry as they will not obey your understanding of religion. Will you then tell me "there is no place for poetry in an article about religion?" This is what Bektashi culture is about, and this kind of censorship is unacceptable. AldirmaGonul 14:54, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I enjoyed these jokes so much that I shared them with my family after reading them all. I have this page watched because I am interested in Sufi islam, and related topics. If these were indeed racist jokes (which they are not), it might be true that including them is inappropriate. But they are not racist jokes, and instead are very educational regarding bektashi culture and its interaction with other muslims. They are also very funny, and should definitely be included. Sam Spade 16:40, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * No. These jokes arent funny, they're offensive and dont belong here. Show me the Wikipedia precedent for placing jokes on religious pages. Are there Muslim jokes on the Islam page? Ahmadi jokes on the Ahmadi page? I dont think so. You want to have Bektashi jokes then start a new article. freestylefrappe 21:23, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * There are no Muslim jokes in Islam page because Muslim jokes are not part of Muslim culture. There are no Ahmadi jokes in Ahmadi page because (probably, I don't know Ahmadi culture) there are no Ahmadi jokes related to their culture or philosophy. If you are knowledgeable about Bektashi belifs or culture, please let us know why the assertion "these jokes are an important part of Bektashi culture" is not true. AldirmaGonul 21:54, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * First of all the culture of Muslims is Islamic culture, and second of all Bektashi is an Islamic sect. You have yet to provide any proof of the importance of Bektashi jokes. freestylefrappe 19:28, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I already provided proof, but you didn't take them into account. The links I listed above are from websites prepared by Alevi/Bektashi organizations who intend to provide reliable information on their culture and beliefs. They also include articles by international researchers. If you cared to check them, you'd see they all assign an important place to Bektashi humor & wit, and provide examples. If you need additional proof, please search for "Bektashi", "Bektasi", "Bektashi jokes", "Bektashi humor", and you'll get plenty of answers for your question. I wasn't able to understand the relevance of your first sentence. AldirmaGonul 18:31, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe you simply did not click the link to Bektashi jokes. freestylefrappe 02:02, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe you simply did not explain why the article should be divided and try to reach an agreement. AldirmaGonul 19:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Let me add a comment here in this discussion. While it certainly seems strange that jokes are included on a page concerning 'religion', dismissing it completely without some discussion and consideration would be doing a disservice.  It may very well be that Bektashi culture is intimately tied to a rich collection of jokes which serve some pedagogical role in the religion.  For example, if we look at this site:
 * http://www.alevibektasi.org/xalevis1.htm
 * It is written that

"X. Alevi-Bektashi Humor Alevis and Bektashis love to use humor to mock religious legalism, hypocrisy, and those who they feel have persecuted them. This humor reveals much about Alevi-Bektashi thought. To understand their humor is to understand the Alevi-Bektashis’ approach to life, religion, and their place in society. Here are only a few examples of the hundreds of Bektashi jokes (fıkralar) that have been collected. This first joke reflects the Alevi attitude toward the legalism of the five pillars"

 * The author is John Shindeldecker, and he is listed as one of the researchers on the fairly official-looking homepage
 * http://www.alevibektasi.org/makale_engl.htm
 * In this case, this material suggests that humor is an integral part of defining Bektashi culture as distinctive from other factions of Islam. Much as Zen Buddhism is characterized by the sometimes meaningless Koans or Gospel music in certain factions of Protestant Christianity.  In all of these cases, I don't think it's fair to say that it's like "adding black jokes to an article about African Americans."  This comparison is also a bit overreaching, and unwarranted.  AldirmaGonul has made a good faith case for why the jokes should be placed on this page.  freestylefrappe has deleted it by only saying that it's "suspect" and "racist".  But given what we read from another source, this seems an overly simplified and inaccurate depiction of the "jokes" section.  I would like to hear an argument against these lines of evidence from freestylefrappe.Wilgamesh 03:28, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * If you vandalize this page by reverting you will be blocked. It's just that simple. Aldirma has not made a good faith case at all. He's engaged in personal attacks and taunts. In fact, I highly doubt that you and Aldirma are not the same person. Either way it makes no difference. freestylefrappe 04:48, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Assumptions again huh, my admin friend? It shouldn't be this easy to accuse people of cheating - well, who am I talking to? Just for completeness, I don't know this person, and I haven't looked at or edited anything in wikipedia since you have threatened me. And be happy, you will never see me again, so you can keep wikipedia free from any fact you don't like. AldirmaGonul 05:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Third Opinion
Someone requested a third opinion in this dispute between freestylefrappe and AldirmaGonul (plus SamSpade and Wilgamesh, whom freestylefrappe accuses of being a sock puppet, on no better evidence than him agreeing with AldirmaGonul). I am not a Muslim of any sect, and before seeing the request for a third opinion, knew nothing about Bektashi religion or culture. I have been reading the discussion here, the article, and the references, and I've been holding my tongue until I had enough of an understanding to make a decision one way or the other. AldirmaGonul has made a very strong case that jokes of this type are an integral and important part of Bektashi culture. It is completely irrelevant that freestylefrappe finds them offensive, for exactly the same reason it is completely irrelevant that SamSpade likes them and finds them funny. It is also irrelevant whether they are 'racist jokes' or not (an issue which has not been and need not be decided). The only issue is whether they are a part of Bektashi culture, because if they are, then an impartial encyclopedia article that accurately and completely documents that culture would include at least samples of such jokes. An analogy has been drawn to including 'black jokes' on a page about African Americans, but I find that analogy hollow. Perhaps a better analogy would be including 'black jokes' in an article about the Ku Klux Klan, if such jokes were an important part of Klan culture (but without any pejorative implication about Bektashi culture that the analogy might convey). An even better anology might be including 'Pollack jokes' in a page about Poland, if Poles themselves told those jokes about themselves. To the extent that the Bektashi jokes criticize other Muslim sects (as well as their own), members of those sects will be offended, but that is irrelevant in a decision about what to include or exclude. The focus should be on accurately and completely describing the subject of the article. If an accurate description offends members of other sects, that is not Wikipedia's fault. Indeed, it would be a fault in Wikipedia to leave out an important fact, to make Bektashi culture appear less offensive to other sects than it is (if it is). I cite the five pillars, particularly the first, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia", and the fifth, "Wikipedia doesn't have firm rules" such as "absolutely no jokes in articles about religion" that freestylefrappe wishes to enforce. My third opinion: this article should have those sample jokes in it, and anyone who deletes them, or reverts the article to delete them, should be blocked. I will delete the request for a third opinion; I leave it up to the participants in the dispute to restore the jokes to the article, and I hope this ends the dispute. Aumakua 03:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Obviously this didn't work, since the jokes remain deleted. A pity, since a page about Bektashism with no mention of Bektashi jokes is like a page about Zen with no mention of koans. Solri (talk) 05:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I have added a section on Bektashi humour. The jokes are different, but if anyone wants to dig out the original ones and add them, that would be fine. Please note Aumakua's comment about deleting or reverting; if there is anything problematic about these particular jokes, feel free to edit, but deleting jokes because they are "offensive" is vandalism. Solri (talk) 12:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Copyvio?
What reason is there to think that Nygdan's material is a direct text dump? He's stated it isn't ; have you checked his sources, Freestylefrappe? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Pagan Survivals
As a Bektashi, I take issue to Nygdan's overuse of this material stressing pagan borrowings in folk religion. Such traditions are NOT part of Bektashi spirituality. Perhaps this person should initiate an entry on pagan survivals among the people of the Balkans instead. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Bektashi110 (talk • contribs) 00:21, January 28, 2006 (UTC)
 * I've restored the material for now, since it belongs somewhere, probably. If you want to split off the material from this page, you should make the effort to do so, instead of just deleting the information. Note: I personally have no interest in or knowledge of this subject area; I'd strongly suggest you and Nygdan talk about the content here to hash out what is best for the article. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:59, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The info looks like a copyvio text dump to me. For now it should stay until another page, perhaps your suggestion of Paganism in the Balkans, is created, or illegitimacy is proven. freestylefrappe 20:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

freestylefrappe, why should anyone grant your opinion here any weight? Your ridiculous allegations of 'copyright violations' on material from a /scientific journal/ are baseless.

As far as creating another page, seems silly to have a 'paganism in the balkans' page just to remove information that some people dislike. The fact that a particular bektashi doesn't follow these customs or this spirituality is irrelveant, they are old customs and beleifs maintained by the bekthashi in this part of the world. They aren't even, properly 'borrowings', they are survivals of ancient religions. These customs and beleifs have consistently been attacked and in many cases destroyed over the generations of sectarian strife in that region. Merely because now different people find them 'offensive' is hardly reason to eliminate them. Also, I get the impression that, if there was a page on these survivals, that the same people would demmand that there be no linking to them on this page. And, I have to re-iterate, it doesn't make much sense to exclude information from an article merely because it is unpopular. Also, this is part fo bekthashi theology, so it properly belongs on a page about the bektashi. Nygdan 21:07, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you understand you cant just dump text from a book without permission? I saw your userpage. Bektashi and Alawi are Islamic divisions whether you like it or not. The content you added is not being ridiculed for offensiveness as you are trying to misportrary, but its irrelevance. freestylefrappe 21:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It is obvious there is some sort of agenda here. There is nothing crypto-pagan in Bektashism and I would like to know, if there is, in what part of Bektashi 'theology' is this found? What you have inserted here may be survivals from ancient paganism, but I challenge you to show me how this is particularly relevent to Bektashis, especially given that Orthodox Christians and Muslims, Sunnis, Catholics, Sufis and Shi'is practice the same folk rituals other than by producing out of date material written by late 19th century European travellers. Bektashi110

Sabbatai Sevi et. al.
There is no evidence whatsoever that the 17th century Jewish "messiah" had contact with the Bektashi Order. Unfortunately this is an oft repeated fallacy that need no be repeated here. It is equally unfortunate that this entry has become a dumping ground for all sorts of misinformation and half truths. Perhaps if would be wise to seek a lock on it. Bektashi110
 * The influence of Sabbatainism (Sabbatai Zevi) and Hurufizm (Ali Al-Allah) on Bektashism

You can get some references by googling Sabbatai Bektashi, eg http://www.kheper.net/topics/Kabbalah/Zevi_and_Bektashi.htm http://www.donmeh-west.com/re-evaluation.shtml http://www.sunnirazvi.org/forum/read.php?f=15&i=3&t=3 Although soemone is removing the links from the Bektashi page for some reason... I think they are also removing links to Hurufizm. There are ongoing debates about whether Hurufizm is an Islamic or pagan or atheist discipline and so I think soem Bektashia maybe eager to distance Bektashism from either Sabbatainism or Hurufizm. Paki.tv 23:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Paki.tv: Do you know of any Bektashis personally? Can you, or the neo-pagan chap, read Ottoman Turkish or even modern Turkish, the language in which countless Bektashi books are written? If not, please refrain from you sweeping generalizations of "I think soem [sic] Bektashia maybe eager to distance Bektashism from either Sabbatainism or Hurufizm." This is definately not the case, as any serious student of the Tarikat knows all too well. If there are indeed any debates on anything it comes from the fact that people have no access to source material due to their lingustic limits and therefore decide to invent all sorts of erroneous assumptions. These website entries that you have listed regarding the false theory that there was some sort of Sabbataian influence on Bektashism can hardly be called credible sources (two Jewish and one traditionalist Sunni), while I have no problem with the Hurufi links to Bektashism. If anything it was Bektashism and Batini Islam that influenced Sabbatai Sevi and not the other way around! Also Fadlullah's khalifah's name is Ali al-'Ala not Ali al-Allah! Cheers! Bektashi110

OK I take your point about source material and admit i have waded in here with a very limited knowledge. Perhaps you could arrange for the translation of key texts into English to lift the veil from our eyes? In the meantime, i will re-write the reference to Sabbatai Zevi to simply mention contact between himself and Bektashia of the time, and also add that there are misinformed debates in the english language about links between Hurufi and Bektashi sufis, as well as Sunni anti-Bektashi propoganda which suggests the same. How does that sound? Paki.tv 09:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for graciously understanding the point. I would recommend the best book written in the English language on Fadlullah Astarabadi and the Hurufis to be the recent work by Prof. Shahzad Bashir, which is readily available. It includes a sizeable discussion on the Hurufi/Bektashi relationship, a portion of which is online (link is at the bottom of the Wikipedia entry). Also I think it would be more in place to put your reworked information on Sabbatai Sevi into the "History" section rather than right in the introduction, since it is something that, even if true, is peripheral to understanding Bektashism. As far as original source information we are slowly trying to make available Bektashi works to the public via (initially) our website www.bektashi.net All the best! Bektashi110

Many thanx, I will certainly check out the links, and shift the mention of Sabbatai to the history - it will make more sense there. All the best with your work, Paki.tv 22:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Bektashi's are not muslim as they say they dont have to pray 5 times a day, allow alochol, and say they do not have to preform the hajj.

Bektashi Poem
I found a Bektashi poem in "Bektachiyya Etudes sur l'ordre mystique des Bektachis et les groupes relevant de Hadji Bektach". It is in Turkish with adjoining translation. It has strong Hurufis undertones, and is attribute Balim Sultan (d.922/1516). I would like to put it on in the article any thoughts? Text: Istivayi ozler gozum. (My eye seeks out repose) Seb'al-mesani'dir yuzum (my face is the oft reperated seven. ie Fatiha) Ana'l-Hakki soyler sozum (My words proclaim 'I am the truth') Miracimiz dardir bizim (Our ascension is by means of the scaffold) Haber aldik muhkemattan *(We have become aware through the firm letters) Gecmeyiz zattan sifattan (we will not abandon essence or attributes) Balim nihan soyler hakk'tan (Balim speaks arcanely of God) Irsadimiz sirdir bizim (Our teaching is a mystery). Any input?Altrafton 19:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:30, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Bektashism → Bektashi Order – per WP:COMMONNAME

 * "Bektashi Order" -Llc 3,670 results (1923-2011 minimum 3,390 results)
 * Bektashism -Llc 5,340 results, but these results include not only Bektashism but also Bektashis.
 * Bektashism without Bektashis 820 results
 * "Bektashism" -Llc 1,220 results, 1923-2011 minimum 1,020 results)

Takabeg (talk) 00:22, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

haji bektash isn't persian
his name bektash is turkic bek means lord or strong tash means rock his name means strong rock in turkic languages. it's uncommon a native persian adopted a turkic name while it's common to turks taking islamic (arabic or persian) names. furthermore haji bektash is in the list of silsila (chain) of turkistan saints after saint of turkestan hodja ahmad yesevi. branches of that silsila exclusively turkic. of course theirs was to a degree persianized culture and bore elements from both turkic shamanism and iranic zoroastrianism. origins of a historical figure creates unnecessary controversy yet i think it's important to give credit to turkistan saints silsila's cultural origins, because they represent a distinctive form of islam compared to persian and arabic cultural influences. without giving that credit it will be harder to analyze certain cultural influences in islamic thinking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.45.131.182 (talk) 14:07, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Shia infoboxes
The bektashi are sufi not shia.عبد المؤمن (talk) 16:02, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

 * Yes, I'm surprised that the infobox places this article under Shia Islam. As the article points out, the Ottoman Janissaries were also initiated into Bektashism, and they weren't exactly Shiites ;-) Solri (talk) 06:00, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Shi'a Islam
If this is about Shi'a Islam, shouldn't that be sourced somewhere in the article? Did I miss it? Seraphim System ( talk ) 22:48, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Development of the Bektashi faith
The large table given has no source, and I am strongly minded to remove it. On the face of it (to me, with some academic training in Islam) it looks tendentious: I note several comments from Bektashis in the threads above about being wrongly accused of syncretism, where their perception is that they are authentically Muslim (for want of a better term): the table would seem to do the same, forte. We should probably expect a source on every one of those links. But perhaps we don't even need to debate the merits of the genealogy given there: the connecting pipes are so vague as to make the table meaningless (and unhelpful) beyond vague insinuations. Are there other thoughts on this? Eteb3 (talk) 17:54, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Order name
The opening claim that the Bektashi Order is short for what is confusingly called here the "Shī‘ah Imāmī Alevī-Bektāshī Ṭarīqah" is simply incorrect and unsubstatiated by existing literature on this religious tradition.

The name of the order is, in keeping with typical Sufi practice of organising a set of teachings around that of a founding historical and religious personality, dervied from the name of the 13th century Anatolian religious figure from whom the Order traces it's lineage. It is not an abbreviation of anything.

On the subject of including the Bektashis under the rubric of Imami Shi'ism, this has sometimes been a practice by some historians of Shi'ism such as Moojan Momen who includes it in a list of Shi'ite groups due to some superficial similarities in devotional practices and rhetoric but is rarely taken seriously by specialists in the field who stress the amalgamation of various religious currents in Medieval Anatolia to the distinct character of the Bektashis

In older literature on the subject it was thought that the Bektashis may have been "Shi'itised" in the 15th century due to their proximity to Safavid propogandists. This view has been challenged in more recent studies which indicate increased Alid cultic practices to communities outside of this reach. In any case the Bektashis themselves don't refer to themselves as Shi'ite, and certainly not Imami which conventially designates a particular form of religiosity maininted by a scholastic and legalistic hierarchy, not simply a devotion to the Twelve Imams which can be found amoung a multitude of non Shi'ite Muslim communities, especially in Anatolian Sufism.

On the question of the common term Alevis often use to express their tradition in contemporary Turkey, that is "Alevi-Bektashi". This is a rather novel self designation of Alevi communities, particularly intellectuals in the 1980s and never a term used by the Bektashi Order which is an entirely seperate institution. On this subject I'd recommend consulting Markus Dressler's "Writing Religion" for a history in the evolution of this terminology.

To summarise, I feel it would be far more accurate to refer to the tradition in question to what it is called by both the Bektashis themselves an academia at large. That is simply, The Bektashis. Spinningsun (talk) 15:53, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Bektashi is much less than 20% of Muslims in Albania
The 3rd paragraph of the page states that "Albania is the country with the most Bektashis, where they make up 20% of the Muslim population." The number comes from reference 9. The number is highly though in the referred source it is mentioned twice. According to the Albania page, the whole population of the country is 2.8 million, there is less than 1.6 million Muslims (all Sunnis) and only 58 thousand Bektashi. That would do only about 3.75% of the Albanian Muslims, so the 20% is way off. PeterGabris (talk) 08:07, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

 * updated data here -- https://www.turkiyetoday.com/world/albanias-muslim-population-drops-below-50-for-first-time-in-centuries-24897/ 47.229.6.8 (talk) 21:37, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Request move January 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 13:42, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Bektashi Order → Bektashism Bektashism is much more suitable for this article as it is the WP:COMMONNAME now. See [Ngrams]  QKIMK (talk) 15:08, 10 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)  — Relisting. —  Coffee  //  have a ☕ //  beans  // 21:51, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That Ngram is about 50:50, so it makes little case for a move. Meanwhile, Google Scholar shows quite a different story. You get 2,050 hits for "Bektashi Order", versus just 53 hits for "Bektashism", so likely not at all the common name in reliable sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:27, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Your google scholar search has a spelling mistake, 'bektashism' has 2,170 hits —blindlynx 20:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Restricting google scholar searched to the last five years (2017-present) shows a clearer trend towards 'Bektashism' with 750 hits vs 519 —blindlynx 20:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Oops, I could have sworn I double checked that. All of these comparisons are still little better than 50:50, 60:40-ish. We really need a better argument than Ngram and Google Scholar. This case should be being made by pulling up examples of recent authoritative sources referring to it as Bektashism rather than the Bektashi Order. It should be doable, as the movement appears to have shifted fairly clearly over its history from being a Sufi Order into something far more akin to its own syncretistic faith. Sources should reflect this. This type of narrative is reflected in pieces such as this, but we should really be looking for more scholarly evidence for such a shift in terminology from reputable, academic sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:31, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * So something else to consider is that 'Bektashi Order' (searched without quotes) has 1660 hits since 2017 .  We're going to have to look at the sources more closely to see what's going on—blindlynx 21:38, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There are also plenty of people and companies with Bektashi as a name, as noted in the last review of this, which went about things by excluding "LLC". So yes, source studying required. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There is also a not uncommon trend for some works to manage to refer to the movement without deferring to either term - instead, sticking to just Bektashi and Bektashis (E.g.: here) Iskandar323 (talk) 21:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Support per points made by QKIMK and blindlynx. It is also supported by a broader ngram, comprising Bektashism, Bektashiyya, Bektashi Order, Bektashi Islam and other. See [here] 9:03, 12 January 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.63.138.220 (talk)
 * Please re-read the points i have made, i don't think there is a clear case for a moveor keepwithout a review of sources that is simply haven't had the time to do—blindlynx 16:21, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

 * Both the nom and 119.63.138.220 are block-evading sockpuppets. For the nom, see the current case section on Sockpuppet investigations/SheryOfficial. For the IP a case section still needs to be filed. ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 16:31, 16 January 2022 (UTC)  [ Struck since this SPI case isn't going anywhere atm. ☿  Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 19:54, 26 January 2022 (UTC)]
 * Comment The ngram results get even closer if you combine the spelling variants "Bektashi Order" and "Bektashi order". Colin M (talk) 16:58, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

After doing a look around myself I do want to note that the phrase 'Bektashi' seems to be vastly more popular than any other used term. Using one of the searches above and adding it to the list highlights how much more common it is in usage. If it can be found out if this term relates to the religion as a whole then perhaps it is the better article title? Dubarr18 (talk) 00:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

title: Talk:Bektashi Order


text:
Category talk:Musicians from Minnesota

CfD discussion
The following discussion comes from Categories for deletion. This is an archive of the discussion only; please do not edit this page. The decision was to move Category:Minnesota Musicians to Category:Minnesota musicians.

Category:Minnesota Musicians
Improperly capitalized, should be Category:Minnesota musicians. -- Rick Block 18:29, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes. I think also that the description and criteria for inclusion for this and all similar People from X state subcategories need to be narrowed.  A musician whose only connection to Minnesota is that he was born there is not a "Minnesota musician" in any meaningful sense (I haven't checked to see how well the currently included articles fit in this case).  People should only be included in State subcategories of professions if they actually practiced their profession there to a significant extent, or their profession was about it in some way.  Stephen King is a perfect example: he is very properly put in Category:Maine writers because he has lived there his whole life, writes from there, and many if not most of his books take place in Maine.  Any suggestions about how to effectively police and focus these categories?  Postdlf 00:03, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't this be Category:Muscians of Minnesota? Guettarda 20:40, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * The only other "by state" musician category in Category:United States musicians is Category:California musicians which is not a tremendously compelling precedent. More compelling is that all Category:Musicians by nationality are of the form " musicians".  Then again, if we're actually going to standardize "by country" categories per Beland's suggestion below then perhaps "by state" categories should similarly be standardized.  I'm fine either way (even deleting this category would be fine with me), but one way or another "Minnesota Musicians" needs to be changed. -- Rick Block 23:15, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Please add Hüsker Dü, they need to be included —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.75.228.130 (talk) 18:48, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category talk:Musicians from Minnesota


text:
User talk:Fuzz~enwiki

No consensus?
Hey, just wondering what happens next when a no concensus verdict is given in VfD? Fuzz 01:38, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * It'll be kept for now. It can be nominated again for deletion, though, anytime someone want to do it.  dbenbenn | talk 02:18, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image:Masturbationlinedraw.jpg
Hi! Thanks for uploading Image:Masturbationlinedraw.jpg. I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use if you release it under the GFDL, or  if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know where you got the image and I'll tag it for you. Thanks so much, – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 22:17, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Fuzz. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Fuzz~enwiki that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name. If you think you might own all of the accounts with this name and this message is in error, please visit Special:MergeAccount to check and attach all of your accounts to prevent them from being renamed.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:57, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 13:04, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:Masturbationlinedraw.jpg

The file File:Masturbationlinedraw.jpg has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern: "unused, low-res, no obvious use"

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.

Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and files for discussion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

This bot DID NOT nominate any file(s) for deletion; please refer to the page history of each individual file for details. Thanks, FastilyBot (talk) 01:02, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

title: User talk:Fuzz~enwiki


text: User talk:64.56.112.2

title: User talk:64.56.112.2


text:
User talk:68.165.99.171

Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia! You don't have to log in to read or edit articles on Wikipedia, but creating an account is quick, free and non-intrusive, requires you to provide no personal information, and gives you many benefits, including:

 * The use of a username of your choice
 * The ability to view all your contributions via a "My contributions" link
 * Your own user page
 * Your own talk page which, if you choose, also allows users to send you messages without knowing your e-mail address
 * The use of your own personal watchlist to which you can add articles that interest you
 * The ability to rename pages
 * The ability to upload images
 * The ability to customize the appearance and behaviour of the website
 * The eligibility to become an Administrator or Sysop (can delete and undelete pages, protect them from being edited, edit protected pages, and block users for violation of our policies)
 * The right to be heard in formal votes and elections, and on pages like votes for deletion

Click here to create an account. ✏ Oven Fresh ☺  02:24, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Nomination of NASA Watch for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article NASA Watch is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/NASA Watch until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. — Huntster (t @ c) 02:37, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Roy Stuart (photographer) for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Roy Stuart (photographer) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Roy Stuart (photographer) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:31, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

title: User talk:68.165.99.171


text:
Fritz Weaver

Fritz William Weaver (January 19, 1926 − November 26, 2016) was an American actor. He appeared in over 170 theatre, television, and film productions in a career spanning nearly 60 years.

Weaver won the 1970 Tony Award for Best Actor in a Play and the Drama Desk Award for Outstanding Performance for his performance as Jerome Malley in the original Broadway production of Child's Play, and was nominated for Tony Award for Best Featured Actor in a Play for The Chalk Garden (1958). He was also well-known as a Shakespearean, and for his portrayal of Sherlock Holmes in the musical Baker Street.

On screen, he made his film debut in Sidney Lumet's Fail Safe (1964), and appeared in Marathon Man (1976), Black Sunday (1977), Demon Seed (also 1977), Creepshow (1982), and The Thomas Crown Affair (1999).

Weaver portrayed Dr. Josef Weiss in the 1978 television miniseries Holocaust, for which he was nominated for a Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Limited Series or Movie. He was also a fixture as a featured and guest actor on science fiction and fantasy shows, including The Twilight Zone, 'Way Out, Night Gallery, The Martian Chronicles, and The X-Files. He also narrated many educational television programs.

Early life
Weaver was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on January 19, 1926, the son of Elsa W. Weaver (née Stringaro) and John Carson Weaver. His mother was of Italian descent and his father was a social worker from Pittsburgh with deep American roots.

Weaver attended the Fanny Edel Falk Laboratory School at the University of Pittsburgh as a child, followed by Peabody High School. He served in the Civilian Public Service as a conscientious objector during World War II.

Career
Following the war, Weaver worked at various jobs before turning to acting in the early 1950s. His first acting role for television came in 1956 for an episode of The United States Steel Hour. Weaver continued to act in television during the next four decades. In 1969, he appeared as Hebron Grant, a Mormon married to two women, on The Big Valley in the episode "A Passage of Saints." He also appeared in several episodes of Mission Impossible.

Weaver also appeared in the made-for-TV movies Holocaust (1978) and The Legend of Lizzie Borden (1975) in which he played Andrew Borden. He earned an Emmy nomination for the former; the award went to his co-star Michael Moriarty.

Weaver won the Tony Award for Best Actor in a Play and the Drama Desk Award for Outstanding Performance for the Broadway play Child's Play (1970). His other Broadway credits included The Chalk Garden (Tony nomination and Theatre World Award win), All American, Baker Street, Absurd Person Singular, “The Price,” Love Letters, and The Crucible. He appeared in the off-Broadway play Burnt Piano for the HB Playwrights Theatre, and with Uta Hagen in a television adaptation of Norman Corwin's play The World of Carl Sandburg.

Weaver also acted in motion pictures, generally as a supporting player. He appeared in such movies as Fail-Safe (1964; as a jingoist and increasingly unstable U.S. Air Force colonel, ashamed of his foreign-born and alcoholic parents, whom he refers to as "those people"), Marathon Man (1976; as a professor advising the protagonist, a graduate student), Black Sunday (1977; as the lead FBI agent in an anti-terrorism effort), Creepshow (1982; as a scientist who discovers a monster in a crate), and John McTiernan's remake of The Thomas Crown Affair (1999). He also had roles in The Day of the Dolphin (1973), Demon Seed (1977), The Big Fix (1978), and Sidney Lumet's Power (1986). Beginning in 1995, Weaver worked primarily as a voice actor, providing narration for programs on the History Channel. After making his third guest appearance on Law & Order in 2005, Weaver made a "secret decision to retire."

In 2010, Weaver was inducted into the American Theater Hall of Fame. Shortly thereafter, he came out of retirement to make an uncredited cameo in This Must Be the Place (2011), voicing the deceased father of Sean Penn's protagonist. He went on to give prominent supporting performances in the Emmy-nominated television film Muhammad Ali's Greatest Fight (2013) and the theatrically released We'll Never Have Paris (2014), The Cobbler (2014), and The Congressman (2016).

Personal life
His brother was the illustrator Robert Weaver, and his younger sister was art director Mary Dodson. Via his sister, he was the brother-in-law to actor Jack Dodson.

Weaver was married twice. His first marriage, to actress Sylvia Short, lasted from 1953 to 1979, and ended in divorce. His second marriage, to actress Rochelle Oliver, lasted from 1997 until his death in 2016. He had two children from his first marriage, Lydia and Anthony.

Fritz Weaver died at his home in New York City on November 26, 2016, at the age of 90.

Film

 * To Trap a Spy (1964) – Andrew Vulcan (archive footage)
 * Fail Safe (1964) – Colonel Cascio
 * The Borgia Stick (1967) – Anderson
 * The Maltese Bippy (1969) – Mischa Ravenswood
 * A Walk in the Spring Rain (1970) – Roger Meredith
 * The Day of the Dolphin (1973) – Harold DeMilo
 * The Legend of Lizzie Borden (1975) – Andrew Borden
 * Marathon Man (1976) – Professor Biesenthal
 * Black Sunday (1977) – Corley
 * Demon Seed (1977) – Alex Harris
 * Captains Courageous (1977) – Harvey Cheyne Sr.
 * The Big Fix (1978) – Oscar Procari Sr.
 * Martian Chronicles (1980) – Father Peregrine
 * Nightkill (1980) – Herbert Childs
 * Jaws of Satan (1981) – Father Tom Farrow
 * Creepshow (1982) – Dexter Stanley (segment "The Crate")
 * Power (1986) – Wallace Furman
 * The Thomas Crown Affair (1999) – John Reynolds
 * This Must Be the Place (2011) – Cheyenne's Father (voice)
 * Muhammad Ali's Greatest Fight (2013) – Hugo Black
 * We'll Never Have Paris (2014) – Phillipe
 * The Cobbler (2014) – Mr. Solomon
 * The Congressman (2016) – Harlan Lantier (final film role)

Television

 * Beyond This Place (1957) – Charlie Castle
 * Way Out (1961, Episode: "William and Mary") – Dr. Landy
 * The Twilight Zone (1961, Episodes: "Third from the Sun" / "The Obsolete Man") – William Sturka / Chancellor

 * The Asphalt Jungle (1961) – Victor Vanda
 * ''The Defenders - Series 2 Episode 22 "The Traitor" (1963) - Vincent Kayle
 * Dr. Kildare (1963) – Arthur Hobler
 * The Man from U.N.C.L.E. (1964) – Andrew Vulcan
 * Twelve O'Clock High (1964) – Col. Peter Raff
 * Rawhide (1964) – Jonathan Damon
 * The Fugitive (1966, Season 3 Episode 28 "A Taste of Tomorrow") – Joe Tucker
 * Combat! (1966) – Major Chaplain Ernest Miller
 * Gunsmoke (1967) – Marshal Burl Masters
 * The Invaders (1967, Episode 30 "The Captive") – Deputy Ambassador Peter Borke
 * The Big Valley (1967–1969) – Hebron Grant / Burke Jordan
 * Cannon (1971) – "The Nowhere Man" - Leo Kern
 * Night Gallery (1971) – Dr. Mazi (segment "A Question of Fear")
 * Mission: Impossible (1966–1971) – George Berlinger / Emil Skarbeck / Erik Hagar / Imre Rogosh
 * Mannix (1968–1973) – William Avery / Dr. Cameron McKenzie
 * Kung Fu – Hillquist
 * Movin' On (TV series) (1974) - Eli Hoffner
 * Great Performances (1974) – Creon (Antigone)
 * The New Land (1974, Episode: "The Word is: Giving" – unaired)
 * The Streets Of San Francisco (1975) – Ted Whitlock
 * The New Adventures of Wonder Woman (1977) – Dr. Solano
 * Holocaust (1978) – Dr. Josef Weiss
 * Hawaii Five-O (1979) – Dr. Harvey Danworth
 * The Martian Chronicles (1980) – Father Peregrine
 * Magnum, P.I. (1980) – Captain J. Cooly, USN
 * Don't Eat the Pictures (1983) – Osiris
 * Tales from the Darkside (Episodes: "Comet Watch" (1986), "Inside the Closet" (1984)) – Sir Edmund Halley / Dr. Fenner
 * Murder, She Wrote (1984–1987) – Paris Inspector Hugues Panassié / Edwin Dupont / Judge Lambert
 * ''The Twilight Zone (1985, Episode 13; segment "The Star") – Father Matthew Karsighan
 * Dream West (1986) – Sen. Thomas Hart Benton
 * I'll Take Manhattan (1987) – Mr. Amberville
 * Friday the 13th: The Series (1989, in the two-part episode of the third-season opener named "The Prophecies") – Asteroth
 * Matlock (1989) – Pastor James Hubert
 * All My Children (1992) – Hugo Marick
 * Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (1994, S2:E25 "Tribunal") – Kovat
 * The X-Files (1996) – Senator Albert Sorenson
 * Frasier (1998) – Sir Trevor Ainsley
 * Law & Order (1991–2005) – Nathan Fogg / Larry Weber / Philip Woodleigh

title: Fritz Weaver


text:
Talk:Succession to the Norwegian throne

Why is the S capitalized? Michael Hardy 02:25, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

no it doesn't
From the article: The last paragraph states that King Harald's sisters are excluded from the line of succession and that Crown Prince Haakon has precedence over his elder sister Princess Märtha Louise.

But that's not what it states. Maybe that's what the intention of that paragraph or maybe that's its practical implications — but we deserve to have it explained. Just what does ¶6 of the old constitution say to exclude the king's sisters? Doops 05:21, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * added birth years. Hope that helps Fornadan (t) 21:39, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't, really. For those born before the year 1971, Article 6 of the Constitution as it was passed on 18 November 1905 shall, however, apply. For those born before the year 1990 it shall nevertheless be the case that a male shall take precedence over a female. This seems to imply that ¶6 specifies male-preference primogeniture, which would put Ranghild and Astrid (given their birthdates) behind any younger brothers in line. But why are they excluded altogether? There must be something else in ¶6. Doops | talk 07:59, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll try again:
 * Until the law was changed Norway had strict Salic primogeniture, so that all the princesses where excluded from the succession.
 * The law was then changed to cognatic primogeniture to be effective from Haaakon's children.
 * However the lawmakers thought it unfair that it should be impossible for Märtha Louise or her desceandants to succeed to the throne. They therefore put in an interim period of semi-salic primogeniture which for all practical purposes would be restricted to Harald's children. Thus Ragnhild and Astrid remains outside the line of succession
 * .Fornadan (t) 12:51, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks. It was the salic law bit which wasn't clear. I've fixed the article accordingly. Doops | talk 00:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

HH
I have read somewhere that Märtha Louise has the right to use Her Highness abroad as well as her aunts. I unfortunately do not remember where. I think this will apply to Sverre Magnus as well. But I am certainly not sure. They can not use HRH anyway. But this needs to be veryfied. Inge 04:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Found a link in the history of Märtha Louise's webiste [1|here]. It is in Norwegian. If anyone can translate, that would be great. Prsgoddess187 11:17, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

 * The article only states that the King has revoked Märtha Louise's right to use the title Her Royal Highness. 80.202.99.136 14:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge
Norwegian Law of Succession should be merged into this article. — Nightst a  llion  (?) 17:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, that article should be renamed Norwegian Law of Succession of 1163 or something similiar. There is no real connection between that law (that was never used) and modern practice Fornadan (t) 19:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Foreseeably useless article
This article is useless repetition to a section at Norwegian monarchy, and presumably will remain such. There is practically nothing more to say about the current line of succession and rules behind it than already are in that section. Requested merge -> this article will be changed to a redirect. Suedois 05:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree, but it is part of a series. Are the others facing the same problem? I don't think it would be a good idea to delete this one article when there are many more like it. Inge 17:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Unborn child
Is it too soon to include Princess Märtha's unborn child in the line of succession? I agree that the child has a right, and that hypothetically if everyone before it in the line were to die before it is born (hypothetically, remember) that it would still become monarch upon birth, even if there were people further down in the line; but I don't think it's right to mark it as an heir when it is not yet considered a person by many groups (which I won't comment on, as this isn't the place for it). Also, I don't think we should mark "(b. 2008)" when the birth is still in the future. For the time being I'm removing the year of birth but I won't touch the actual placement of the child in the line without further support. Andrei Iosifovich (talk) 02:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the constitution the unborn child takes its place in the line upon birth so it should be included at that point.Inge (talk) 15:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Wrong.
 * Upon CONCEPTION 46.15.114.244 (talk) 03:32, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Please expand this article
There are some questions left unanswered by the article. Perhaps these are questions left unanswered by the law. The questions I allude to relate to one main question: What happens if the eight people listed (the King and seven successors) all die at once? For instance, does Parliament pick a new monarch? If so, is there any provision for an acting head of state while Parliament does so? Has Parliament ever considered having a wider universe of heirs to the throne? I could keeping coming these, but that probably wouldn't be helpful. -Rrius (talk) 21:00, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Politicians are not human.
 * They are merely parsites leaching off the people.
 * No one gives a f what they say or write, 46.15.114.244 (talk) 03:34, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Line of succession to the Norwegian throne. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131113013504/http://www.royalcourt.no/seksjon.html?tid=28765&sek=28430 to http://www.royalcourt.no/seksjon.html?tid=28765&sek=28430

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 09:47, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Monarch's religion
according to treaty of 12th Century, does the Ruler still have to be Catholic? or has there been a recent change and is no longer obligatory to be Catholic?

Hypothetically

if Ingrid got married to Prince George of Cambridge, would either one be forced to abdicate their placement? ( as spouse of the ruler ( or potential ruler ), would either George have to convert to Catholic or Ingrid to Anglican? ) and what about their first born? would he or she have to take only one title ( as one can't be both Catholic and Anglican which are probably required of the monarchy of each country ) Verdad63 (talk) 02:48, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

 * Because the Treaty of the 1200`s did not unclude Vatican 2 and the accompanying change in The Popes failure to
 * slaughter heretics and start Wars as Proper Poes should.
 * We are de Jure now back to Pre-Scisms Christianity.
 * Of course:
 * No "rules" or "laws" given after 1458 has any de jure effect in Norway. And hardly any de-facto either.
 * The whole "Constitution" is pure BullShit by some somemodernist dudes who had no Legal Right to change Original Norwegian Laws
 * The last de-jure King or Norway died in 1459
 * according to the Laws of St. Olaf the *Eternal King of Norway*
 * SO:
 * First in time, best in right.
 * but congratulation Verdad63:
 * You seem to be the only one here that understands that the concept that what was decreed in the past dictates the legal status of the present
 * and future.
 * laws decreed valid "for all future in the past", will remain valid "for ever" as one cannot change the past.
 * That Democracy-bullshit is a Greek Hoax they can ram up their mothers rectums.
 * Still congrats for undertanding that truth is eternal. 46.15.114.244 (talk) 03:17, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

HELLO WIKI-MILLENIALS.
Please delete all articles about Norway in English.

That makes it far easier to galvanize national support for breaking off all ties with your countries and galvanise national support for

the forthcoming nuclear anihilation of countries which disrespects us.

Such as yours. But keep it up, please.

It proves you have no Honour nor respect for the dead.

Thus proving the words of the leaders of the nations

whose nukes are aimed at your peoples right now

for the exact same reasdons.

Insults KILLS. 46.15.114.244 (talk) 03:29, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Succession to the Norwegian throne


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Proof that 1 = 2

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS.

The votes were 7 delete, 6 redirect. I'm going to redirect it. dbenbenn | talk 08:01, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Proof that 1 = 2
This is already covered at Invalid proof under examples. Delete, nothing to merge that isn't already there. ÅrÐ£nT † ∈ 02:28, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect. ✏ Oven Fresh  ☺  02:31, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Invalid proof. Megan1967 03:53, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Invalid proof. It's already covered completely there.  Antandrus 03:56, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, it's already in Division by zero. RJFJR 06:25, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * Thats great. Require someone to understand the answer when searching for the question. - Taxman 03:58, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete. I can't see anyone searching for or linking to this.  Maybe, possibly, for 1 = 2 (which, on preview, I see is a redirect to this).  But even that's dubious. —Korath (Talk) 06:55, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect. I can see people searching for it, or trying to make another article with this name. Kappa 10:12, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't see people searching for this with its exact spacing and phrasing. If we make this into a redirect we might as well make 1=2, 2=1, Proof that 1=2, Proof that 2=1, and any number of other articles into redirects as well.  Which after seeing now, are redirects mostly to this article for deletion, I believe there is no real reason to keep them hanging around, since a user searching for this phenomenon would most likely have to use the search function anyway, which would lead them to the Invalid proof page, where they would find what they're looking for.   ÅrÐ£nT † ∈  15:14, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * They aren't doing any harm by 'hanging around' and they have a good chance of being useful. This "proof" is quite commonly discussed, and I think people would be likely to type in of those things if they were looking for it. But if the admin decided redirecting all of them would be too much bother, I'd understand. Kappa 03:31, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Comment: For a more general and I think valid (but faceteous) treatment, see my brief treatise on Ridiculous Numbers. No vote. Andrewa 11:43, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Please, delete this page. LeeJacksonKing 15:12, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. No one is going to search for this... Agriculture 04:44, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. JimmyShelter 09:10, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. -- AllyUnion (talk) 05:40, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect. This "proof" is very common and redirects are cheap. - Taxman 03:55, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Invalid proof. Neutralitytalk 16:58, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
North-link line

The North-Link Line is the central section of the Eastern Line of the Taiwan Railways Administration. The length of its mainline is 79.2 km, and there is a 7.4 km long branch between Beipu and Hualien Port.

History
The high mountains and cliffs in eastern Taiwan, between Yilan and Hualien, is a major barrier to the transportation between northern Taiwan and eastern Taiwan. The highway was narrow and dangerous. Ferry service between Keelung and Hualien was an overnight trip. Thus in 1973 the construction of North-link line started. The line branched from Yilan line at Nan Sheng Hu in Su'ao, traveling through mountains and valleys with 91 tunnels and 16 bridges, and ended at a newly constructed Hualien Station. The line was completed in 1979 and was almost immediately overloaded in passenger and freight services. Despite Taiwan Railways Administration continued upgrading signals, tracks, and rolling stock of the line, the great demand could not be fulfilled. The line was then electrified in 2003 and expanded to two tracks (double track) in January 2005.

Stations

 * Yongchun Station: Located between Su'aoxin and Yongle. Merged by Yongle Station in 2002.

title: North-link line


text:
File:Josie-hannabarbera-title.jpg

Summary
Screen capture from Josie and the Pussycats (1970 TV show)

title: File:Josie-hannabarbera-title.jpg


text: User talk:67.1.180.239

title: User talk:67.1.180.239


text:
Laysan albatross

The Laysan albatross (Phoebastria immutabilis) is a large seabird that ranges across the North Pacific. The Northwestern Hawaiian Islands are home to 99.7% of the population. This small (for its family) gull-like albatross is the second-most common seabird in the Hawaiian Islands, with an estimated population of 1.18 million birds, and is currently expanding (or possibly re-expanding) its range to new islands. The Laysan albatross was first described as Diomedea immutabilis by Lionel Walter Rothschild, in 1893, on the basis of a specimen from Laysan Island.

Etymology
It is named for Laysan, one of its breeding colonies in the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands.

Description
The Laysan albatross averages 81 cm in length and has a wingspan of 195 to(-). Males, which weigh 2.4 to(-), are larger than females, which weigh 1.9 to(-). This albatross has blackish-gray upperwing, mantle, back, upper rump, and tail, and its head, lower rump, and underparts are white. It has a black smudge around the eye, and its underwing pattern varies between individuals, with some having narrower black margins and variable amounts of black in the underwing coverts. Finally, the bill is pink with a dark tip. Juveniles have a gray bill and a dark upper rump. This species does not have a breeding plumage.

The Laysan albatross is usually easy to identify. In the North Pacific, it is simple to separate from the other relatively common albatross, the all black black-footed albatross. It can be distinguished from the very rare short-tailed albatross by its all-dark back and smaller size. The Laysan albatross's plumage has been compared to that of a gull, two-toned with a dark gray mantle and wings and a white underside and head.

Distribution and habitat
The Laysan albatross has a wide range across the North Pacific, with 16 nesting sites. All but 0.3% of the breeding population is found among the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, particularly the islands of Midway and Laysan. Small populations are found on the Bonin Islands near Japan and the bird has begun to colonize islands off Mexico, such as Guadalupe Island and others in the Revillagigedo Archipelago. The Laysan Albatross is protected in Guadalupe Island Biosphere Reserve. When away from the breeding areas, they range widely from Japan to the Bering Sea and south to 15°N.

Behavior
The Laysan albatross is normally a silent bird, but on occasion may be observed emitting long "moo"-ing sounds, descending whinnies, or rattles. Female Laysan albatrosses may bond for life and cooperatively raise their young.

A female Laysan albatross named Wisdom is the oldest known wild bird in the world. Wisdom was banded by a U.S. Geological Survey researcher in 1956, and in December 1956, she was seen rearing a new chick on Midway Atoll. Because Laysan albatrosses cannot breed until they are five years old, as of 2016, Wisdom was estimated to be at least 66 years old. Wisdom’s latest chick hatched on February 1, 2021, and her current estimated age is over 70.

Reproduction
Laysan albatrosses are colonial, nesting on scattered small islands and atolls, often in huge numbers, and building different styles of nests depending on the surroundings, ranging from simple scoops in the sand to nests using vegetation. They have a protracted breeding cycle, and breed annually, although some birds skip years. On Hawaiian Islands, breeding season typically lasts from November to July. Juvenile birds return to the colony three years after fledging, but do not mate for the first time until seven or eight years old. During these four or five years, they form pair bonds with a mate that they will keep for life. Courtship entails especially elaborate 'dances' that have up to 25 ritualized movements.

Occasionally, the birds form same-sex pairs consisting of two females. This has been observed in the colony on the Hawaiian island Oahu, where the sex ratio of male to female is 2 to 3 and 31% of all pairs are between females. Paired females can successfully breed when their eggs are fertilized by males. This phenomenon has been useful to conservation efforts in the Hawaiian Islands, where researchers have successfully swapped unfertilized eggs from female-female pairs with fertile eggs translocated from pairs nesting on military airfields and in other unsafe nesting areas. The female-female pairs then hatch and raise the foster chicks.

The single egg is buff-white and may have spots. Both birds incubate the egg; the male does so first. Incubation takes about 65 days, and is followed by several weeks of brooding, after which both parents are out at sea to provide for the growing chick. The chick takes about 160 days to fledge. This time investment by the parents may explain the long courtship; both parents want to be sure the other is serious. The chicks are fed regurgitated meals of very rich "stomach oil" and partially digested squid and fish by the parents.

The Laysan albatross and the black-footed albatross have been known to hybridize. Like all albatrosses, the Laysan albatross is known to be a long-living bird. The oldest known live bird, a female named Wisdom, was at least 70 years old. In 2014 she hatched a healthy chick which is believed to be her 36th. The longest lifespan confirmed for a wild seabird was for a breeding male found to have been banded 53 years previously. Other albatross are thought to match or maybe even exceed this record, but few confirmations of very old albatrosses exist.

Feeding
The Laysan albatross feeds predominantly on cephalopods, but also eats fish, crustaceans, and other invertebrates.

Conservation
The IUCN had classified the Laysan albatross as vulnerable due to drastic reductions in populations, but the population may be rebounding. The IUCN now classifies the Laysan albatross as near threatened. The Laysan albatross, while a common species, has not yet recovered from the wide-scale hunting of the early 1900s, with feather hunters killing many hundreds of thousands and wiping them out from Wake Island and Johnston Atoll. This slaughter led to efforts to protect the species (and others) which led eventually to the protection of the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands.

The Laysan albatross has an occurrence range of 38800000 km2 and a breeding range of 3500 km2 with a population of 1,180,000 mature birds estimated in 2006. Midway Atoll, Laysan Island, and the French Frigate Shoals have more than 90% of the breeding pairs at 551,940. Bonin Island has 23 pairs and offshore Mexico has about 400 pairs, with 337 pairs on Isla Guadalupe. The northwestern Hawaiian Islands have suffered a 32% reduction in breeders from 1992 to 2002. However, the last three years have had a rebound that stabilized the period between 1992 and 2005. This species was extirpated from Wake Atoll, Johnston Atoll, and Minami Torishima. The Mexican population has been increasing since its inception.

In the past, harvesting for feathers was a major threat, along with high-seas drift net, but both of these have ceased, barring some small-scale illegal drift net operations. Current threats today are the longline fisheries.

Midway Atoll
70% of the global population of Laysan albatrosses nest on Midway Atoll annually.

In October 2009, an estimated 10,000 Laysan albatrosses nesting on Midway Atoll, part of the Papahānaumokuākea Marine National Monument, were killed each year from lead poisoning. The Laysan albatross has been globally listed as vulnerable to extinction by the World Conservation Union and is a special trust species on the Midway Atoll National Wildlife Refuge in the recently established national monument.

"Laysan chicks raised in nests close to 90 buildings left behind by the Navy are ingesting lead-based paint chips. This is causing shockingly high lead concentrations in their blood, leading to severe neurological disorders, and eventual death," said George Fenwick, president of American Bird Conservancy. "Federal funds are urgently needed to clean up this toxic mess to protect the Laysan albatross, as well as future visitors to the new Marine National Monument." As many as 10,000 chicks, or 5% of hatched chicks, may be killed annually by exposure to lead-based paint. Many Laysan chicks that nest within 5 m of building structures exhibit a condition referred to as "droop wing", which commonly manifests itself in the chicks’ inability to raise their wings, which then drag on the ground, resulting in broken bones, infestations of maggots, and open sores. Chicks with droop wing will never be able to fly and will die of starvation or dehydration. Other chicks in close proximity to buildings also suffer detrimental effects from lead exposure. These chicks have blood lead concentrations that cause immunological, neurological, and renal impairments, significantly decreasing their chances of survival.

The Department of the Interior (DOI) estimated that $22.9 million was needed to clean up the toxic lead paint on Midway Atoll. The 95 federally-owned government buildings would need to be stripped of all lead-based paint and sand areas surrounding these old buildings thoroughly sifted to remove lead paint chips. When American Bird Conservancy staff presented the severity of this growing threat to an already imperiled bird species to DOI officials, they were told that the new Northwestern Hawaiian Islands Marine National Monument did not have any federal funds dedicated to its operation. Moreover, the DOI officials stated that the current federal budget for the nation's wildlife refuge system would be insufficient to prevent the continued ingestion of lead paint by Laysan chicks.

In February 2010, the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) announced an impending lawsuit against the United States Fish and Wildlife Service for violations of the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, the Endangered Species Act, and the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act. By September of that year, the Fish and Wildlife Service made plans to spend $1.4 million on cleaning the lead paint at the Midway Atoll military buildings, with plans to spend more than $21 million overall to removed paint chips from the soil and clean 71 buildings in total; the American Bird Conservancy reported that the clean-up would begin by July 2011. In 2011, the Fish and Wildlife Service announced its plans to begin the clean up of lead-based paint at federal facilities. By 2016, more than 20,000 cubic yards of lead-contaminated soil had been treated. In August 2018, Midway Atoll was declared lead-free after a long campaign of remediating the buildings and soils.

title: Laysan albatross


text:
St Nicholas Church, Durham

St Nicholas Church, commonly known as St Nics, is a Church of England parish church located in Durham in County Durham, England. The church is part of the open evangelical tradition of the Church of England.

Old St Nicholas' Church
The original St Nicholas' Church is thought to have been founded in the early 12th century by Ranulf Flambard, Prince Bishop of Durham. He cleared Palace Green, between the cathedral and his castle, and established the current marketplace below the castle, with the church of St Nicholas, patron saint of merchants, beside it. The first recorded vicar was Galfrid de Elemer, in 1133.

This church had a buttressed nave and chancel, and a square tower with battlements. Its north wall formed part of the city walls, and abutted the ancient Clayport Gate on one side until the gate's demolition in 1791. A graveyard lay between the church and the marketplace, and another behind the church.

The building was extensively modified over the centuries, including shortening of the east end to allow widening of the road, and in the 19th century a market piazza was built against its south wall. It was described in 1803 as "very ruinous", while Sir Stephen Glynne, who visited in 1825, said it was "a large structure, & displays some marks of antiquity, although the barbarous hand of innovation has swept nearly all before it", and that its windows "alas! are of too sad a description to be mentioned". He did, however, note that it was "neatly pewed" and that the South porch was "good Perpendicular".

1858 rebuilding
In 1854, a competition was held to secure an architect to renovate the church, which was won by 24-year-old Darlington-based architect James Pigott Pritchett junior. However, when the market piazza was demolished, it was found that the church was beyond repair, and Pritchett was engaged instead to design and build a new church. The incumbent, George Townshend Fox, gave an initial donation of £1000 towards the cost of rebuilding.

The old church was demolished in June 1857. Almost all that remains from it is its font, dating from 1700, and its five bells, dating from 1687 and therefore the oldest ring of bells in the diocese. Though the bells were not rung from the 1970s onwards due to fears for the safety of the tower, ringing resumed in 2000 and the 17th-century bells, along with a sixth added in 1889, are now rung frequently.

Pritchett's new church, in the decorated gothic style, was estimated to cost £3,600 and was opened with great ceremony in December 1858. The building was described by the Illustrated London News at the time as "the most beautiful specimen of church architecture in the north of England", and was considered by Nikolaus Pevsner to be one of Pritchett's best. It was the first church in Durham to have a spire; which had not been part of Pritchett's original plan, but was added at the behest of Fox, who paid the £400 cost himself. It is a Grade II listed building.

Reordering and later
George Carey, later Archbishop of Canterbury, was vicar of St Nicholas from 1975 to 1982. During that time he led a project, supervised by ecclesiastical architect Ronald Sims, in which the pews and the majority of the Victorian interior features of the church were removed to allow the church to be used more flexibly for worship and community activities. Carey's book The Church in the Marketplace describes the process and its impact on the life of the parish.

During the 2020 COVID-19 pandemic, the church moved many of its activities online, producing morning and evening services each Sunday as well as daily prayer. Vicar Arun Arora reported that the church had seen increased attendance at some online services compared to previous in-person events, and intended to continue livestreaming its services once in-person gatherings resumed.

Parish and population
The parish is small (covering only the area around the Market Place, Claypath and The Sands) and is bounded by the parishes of Durham's three other ancient city churches – St Giles', St Oswald's and St Margaret's. Historically the parish was densely populated; however, slum clearance in the 1920s (as well as commercial development of previously residential areas) greatly reduced the population of the parish, and though more recent building has increased this a little, the church draws the majority of its congregation from outside its own parish. It has a large student population, and is classified by the Diocese of Durham as its own locality, meaning that its mission is recognised as distinctly different from those of other city centre churches. The church has a long tradition of evangelicalism, and its patronage has been held by the Church Pastoral Aid Society since the mid-19th century.

Outreach
One notable feature of the reordered church was the Gateway World Shop, which occupied the south-east corner of the church, having its own outside entrance, and sold Fair trade goods. The shop reflected the church's long involvement with the fair trade movement; Richard Adams, founder of Traidcraft, was a member of the church. The shop closed in February 2023 (shortly after Traidcraft went into administration), citing increasing costs and falling profits linked to the COVID-19 pandemic, and the increased availability of fair-trade goods through mainstream supermarkets.

St Nics has a long history of supporting overseas mission. The first bishop of Uganda, Alfred Tucker, left his curacy at St Nics to bring Christianity to Uganda. This support is currently expressed by the church's financial support of the Church Mission Society, South American Missionary Society, the Bible Society, Spanish Outreach Ministries and the Diocese of Lesotho.

Notable clergy

 * Arun Arora, previously Director of Communications for the Church of England and subsequently Bishop of Kirkstall, was vicar 2017-2022
 * Pete Broadbent, later Bishop of Willesden, served his curacy here in the late 1970s.
 * George Carey, later Archbishop of Canterbury, was vicar of St Nicholas from 1975 to 1982.
 * David V. Day, former Principal of St John's College, Durham, was a non-stipendiary minister from 1999 to 2007, and remains part of the ministry team as of 2021.
 * Alistair Magowan, later Bishop of Ludlow, was curate here 1984–9.
 * George Marchant, later Archdeacon of Auckland, was vicar of St Nicholas from 1954 to 1974.
 * Maeve Sherlock, Baroness Sherlock, became curate here in 2018, and Associate Minister in 2022.
 * Alfred Tucker, later Bishop of Eastern Equatorial Africa, served his curacy here in the 1880s.
 * John Wenham, Biblical scholar, was vicar 1948–1953.
 * Frank White, later Bishop of Brixworth, served his curacy here in the 1980s.

title: St Nicholas Church, Durham


text:
Jan Matthys

Jan Matthys (also known as Jan Matthias, Johann Mathyszoon, Jan Mattijs, Jan Matthijszoon; c. 1500 – 5 April 1534) was a charismatic Anabaptist leader of the Münster Rebellion, regarded by his followers as a prophet.

Matthys was born in Haarlem, in the Holy Roman Empire's County of Holland, where he worked as a baker, and was converted to Anabaptism through the ministry of Melchior Hoffman in the 1520s. Matthys baptized thousands of converts, and after Hoffman's imprisonment, rose to prominent leadership among the Anabaptists. Matthys rejected the pacifism and non-violence theology of Hoffman, adopting a view that oppression must be met with resistance.

In 1534, an Anabaptist insurrection took control of Münster, the capital city of the Holy Roman Empire's Prince-Bishopric of Münster. John of Leiden, a Dutch Anabaptist disciple of Matthys, and a group of local merchants summoned Matthys to come. Matthys identified Münster as the "New Jerusalem", and on January 5, 1534, a number of his disciples entered the city and introduced adult baptism. Reformer Bernhard Rothmann apparently accepted "rebaptism" that day, and well over 1000 adults were soon baptized.

They declared war on Franz von Waldeck, its expelled prince-bishop, who besieged the fortified town of Münster. In April 1534, on Easter Sunday, Matthys, who had prophesied that God's judgment on the wicked would take place on that day, attacked with twelve followers, under the idea that he was a second Gideon, and was cut off with his entire band. He was killed, dismembered and his head stuck on a pike. Later that evening, his genitals were nailed to the city door.

title: Jan Matthys


text:
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/biographies/W

Why the nowiki tags? Ground 02:32, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)


text:
Boozoo Chavis

Wilson Anthony "Boozoo" Chavis (pronounced CHAY-viss) (October 23, 1930 – May 5, 2001) was an American accordion player, singer, songwriter and bandleader. He was one of the pioneers of zydeco, the fusion of Louisiana Creole and blues music developed in southwest Louisiana.

Early life
Chavis was born to parents Arthur and Marceline Chavis in Church Point, Louisiana. When he was young, his parents moved to a Cajun Creole settlement called Pied des Chiens (Dog Hill), in Lake Charles, Louisiana. He was the son of tenant farmers, and acquired the nickname "Boozoo" in his childhood, although the origin of the nickname is unknown. When asked by a reporter about his nickname, Chavis replied "Man, I hate that question".

Accounts vary as to when and how Chavis obtained his first accordion. A Living Blues magazine story says that at age 9, he traded a small riding horse for his first accordion, a little single-row model, and taught himself to play. An article in OffBeat Magazine claims that Chavis bought his first accordion with money earned from riding in a horse race when he was a teenager; similarly, Sing Out! claims that he bought the accordion at 13 with horse race bet winnings. He was exposed to music within his family; his father, some uncles and cousins all played accordion. His great uncle was Sidney Babineaux, a popular accordionist from Rayne who played in the "La La" style. Boozoo played washboard and harmonica prior to obtaining his first accordion, and his father taught him early accordion lessons. Chavis credits his mother as being especially enterprising, as she took on cleaning jobs and selling barbeque at informal horse races to raise extra money, with which she bought three acres of land. When he was 14, the Chavis family moved "across the highway".

Later, Chavis bought a button accordion and began performing regularly at a dance club that his mother opened, often sitting in on performances with Clifton Chenier, his father, Morris Chenier, and brother, Cleveland Chenier. Chavis also played music as a side job at house dances on weekends and evenings. As well as developing the playing style that came to be known as zydeco, Chavis worked as a farmer, jockey, and horse trainer.

First era: 1950s
Chavis made his first recording in 1955, "Paper in My Shoe", based on a song he heard performed by Creole accordionist Ambrose "Potato" Sam. Chavis's version was an uptempo tune with a dance beat about being too poor to afford new shoes or socks, so he placed a paper in his shoes to keep his feet warm when the holes in the sole got too large. The song, sung in both French and English, was originally released on the Folk-Star label, a subsidiary of Goldband, before being reissued by Imperial Records. This recording was among the first commercially released zydeco songs and a regional hit, and was subsequently acknowledged as a zydeco standard. The song was recorded at the instigation of local entrepreneur Eddie Shuler, who teamed Chavis up with a rhythm and blues band named Classie Ballou's Tempo Kings. The first recording session was not successful, so Shuler brought whiskey in for subsequent takes, and the band lost their inhibitions. An inebriated Chavis fell off of his chair at the end of the released version of "Paper in My Shoe", so the song fades out, which was one of the first records to use that technique. Chavis denied this widely shared anecdote.

Chavis was convinced that the recording was more successful than the record companies claimed, later saying: "I got gypped out of my record. I get frustrated, sometimes. I love to play, but, when I get to thinking about 1955... They stole my record. They said that it only sold 150,000 copies. But, my cousin, who used to live in Boston, checked it out. It sold over a million copies. I was supposed to have a gold record." As a result, Chavis lost trust in the music business, and over the next thirty years only released three more singles: "Forty-One Days" (Folk-Star, 1955), "Hamburgers & Popcorn" (Goldband, 1965), and "Mama! Can I Come Home" (credited to the Dog Hill Playhouse Band, Crazy Cajun, 1974). He found difficulty booking gigs without steady record releases.

He performed rarely during the 1960s and 1970s, except for friends and family events, devoting most of his time to farming and raising racehorses on his property in Dog Hill, on the outskirts of Lake Charles, Louisiana. The area derived its name because it is where people traditionally went to dump unwanted pets. During those years, zydeco's popularity was limited mainly to Louisiana. By the early 1980s however, zydeco was gaining recognition outside of Louisiana in the United States, as well developing as a strong following in Europe, thanks largely to the popularity of artists such as Clifton Chenier, Buckwheat Zydeco, and Rockin' Dopsie. Those artists were performing as main attractions at music festivals, were included in magazine stories, and were getting the attention of major record labels.

Second era: 1984–2001
In the early 1980s, Chavis was making a meager living with his race horses, and earned only a small amount of money performing at occasional house parties or dances. Chavis's family, and in particular his wife Leona, encouraged him to resume his music career. Chavis returned to performing music regularly in 1984 after discovering that another musician was impersonating him. He and his wife were driving to a horse race and heard an advertisement on the radio for a dance featuring Boozoo Chavis, after which he realized that there was enough name recognition for him to return to performing.

He signed a five-year contract with the Maison de Soul label, and released a locally successful single, "Dog Hill" (on the ZBC label) and four albums: Louisiana Zydeco Music (1986), Boozoo Zydeco! (1987), Zydeco Homebrew (1989), and Zydeco Trail Ride (1990). Louisiana Zydeco Music included a re-recording of "Paper In My Shoe" that was included on many jukeboxes in Louisiana and became a regional hit for a second time. These four albums were frequently played on local zydeco radio shows. In addition, Rounder Records released a live album Zydeco Live! in 1989, and a compilation of his 1950s recordings, The Lake Charles Atomic Bomb, in 1990. He also recorded two albums for Sonet Records in the early 1990s. During this time period, many of his songs also appeared on compilation albums issued by labels in both the US and Europe that featured many of the most well-known zydeco performers.

Chavis earned the nickname "The Creole Cowboy" because of his background raising horses, as well as his habit of wearing a white Stetson hat during performances. In addition, the subject matter of some of his songs was explicitly rural, such as "Zydeco Hee Haw", "Johnnie Billy Goat", and "Motor Dude Special" named for his prized thoroughbred horse. Chavis also routinely wore an apron while on stage, to keep his sweat from damaging his accordion. Stylistically, Chavis provided a rural contrast, with fewer instruments and more repetitive (yet unpredictable and energetic) compositions, with la la roots, compared to the urban zydeco developed and popularized by Clifton Chenier, which featured a broad instrumental lineup, standardized compositions, and electric influences from soul and rock.

Chavis was a prolific writer of zydeco songs, some including references to his friends and acquaintances and others too raunchy to be sold openly. The release of X-rated versions of his songs "Uncle Bud" and "Deacon Jones" on his 1999 album Who Stole My Monkey? resulted in a parental advisory sticker, the first for a zydeco recording. Many of his songs have become standards of the zydeco repertoire, in spite of, or perhaps because of, their generally idiosyncratic and quirky construction and subject matter. "If it's wrong, do it wrong, with me," he would tell his band. "If I'm wrong, you wrong, too!"

Until 1990, Chavis was notoriously afraid of flying. He told record producer Floyd Soileau that if Soileau wanted him to fly to performances, he'd have to get him drunk to get on an airplane. Over a prior five-year period, Chavis made just one trip to California, and he drove there from Louisiana. But after Chavis's mother died in May 1990, he decided he had to overcome his flying phobia in order to advance his music career. His first flight was to New York City to perform at a club called Tramps, and he claimed to have enjoyed the experience.

During the 1990s, having overcome his fear of flying, Chavis performed widely with his band, the Magic Sounds (also credited as the Majic Sounds), and was crowned "The King of Zydeco" in New Orleans in 1993, after Clifton Chenier's death. His style, using a button rather than piano accordion, was more traditional than that of Chenier. He switched between single-, double-, and triple-row accordions and played in "cross position" and in relative minor keys to make a bluesy sound on the diatonic instruments. Around this time, he would stage battles with Beau Jocque, who was a young rival, but the two were in fact friends.

According to The New York Times, "with his rough-hewn voice and hefty accordion riffs, his band's one-chord grooves had a mesmerizing intensity that kept dance floors packed". He appeared at the New York Jazzfest for ten consecutive years as well as appearances at the Newport Folk Festival and the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival, and in 2000 he was a featured act at the San Francisco Jazz Festival. Chavis was featured in a 1994 documentary film titled The Kingdom of Zydeco.

Death
Chavis died on May 5, 2001, from complications resulting from a heart attack after a performance a week earlier in Austin, Texas. He was funeralized at Our Lady Queen of Heaven Catholic Church and interred at Highland Memorial Gardens, both in Lake Charles, Louisiana.

Awards and honors
Chavis was inducted into the Zydeco Hall of Fame in 1998. In 2001, he was awarded a National Heritage Fellowship by the National Endowment for the Arts, which is the highest honor in the folk and traditional arts in the United States.

Personal life
Chavis married Leona Predium who often accompanied Chavis on tour, and on breaks between sets would sell records, T-shirts, and panties with his photo printed on them. Leona died in 2009.

Boozoo and Leona had six children, Wilson Jr. ("Poncho"), Margaret ("Do-Right"), Louann, Charles, Licia, and Rellis Chavis, as well as 21 grandchildren, and many great-grandchildren. Two of his sons (Charles on washboard and Rellis on drums) were full-time band members, and a grandson occasionally performed with the Magic Sounds.

In 1995, Chavis had the tips of two fingers on his left hand amputated after an accident involving a barbeque pit. With his hand wrapped up in bandage tape, he played a gig the following night.

Legacy
Chavis had completed the recording of what would be his final album only a few weeks before his death. Tentatively titled I'm Still Blinkin'  the album was released on Rounder Records later in 2001 under the title Down Home On Dog Hill. AllMusic wrote of the album: "Chavis may have been at the peak of his musical form when this album was recorded….[It] is a worthy legacy for a sorely missed star of Louisiana music."

After his father's death, his son Charles took on the role of bandleader for the Magic Sounds. However, Charles died of a heart attack at age 45, only eight months after his father's death. Charles is buried in the same Lake Charles cemetery as his father.

Following Charles' death, Poncho Chavis kept the Magic Sounds band going, including a tribute performance to his father at the 2002 New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival, just four months after his brother's death and less than a year after his father's passing. Photos of both Boozoo and Charles graced the stage at the Jazz Fest show. Poncho Chavis and the Magic Sounds continued to perform at festivals until at least 2008.

In 2005, five of Boozoo Chavis' grandsons started a band named The Dog Hill Stompers, partly to keep their grandfather's legacy alive. They released their debut album Keeping the Tradition in 2007, and also performed for the first time at Boozoo's Labor Day Festival in 2007. As of 2017, the Dog Hill Stompers continue to play clubs and festivals in Louisiana as well as around the United States.

Chavis founded the "Labor Day Dog Hill Festival" in 1989 as a fan appreciation party, but also to showcase zydeco musicians and to keep the zydeco tradition alive. Originally held in a field near the Chavis family home, the popularity and growth of the festival required a move to larger venues, with the festival location varying between the Knights of Columbus Hall in Iowa, Louisiana and the Lake Charles Civic Center. The event was always a family-friendly affair, with Leona cooking Creole dishes for the crowds, ranging from red beans and rice to crawfish étouffée.

After Boozoo's death, the festival was renamed as Boozoo's Labor Day Festival to celebrate his legacy and love of zydeco music. His widow Leona managed the festival until her death in 2009, after which their children have been determined to continue the tradition in honor of their father, with daughter Margaret acting as festival promoter. In 2015 the Southeast Tourism Society, which has 12 states as members, named Boozoo's Labor Day Festival a "Top 20 Event". The festival celebrated its thirty-second anniversary in 2016.

Other musicians have acknowledged Chavis's influence and legacy by writing songs about him. Rock band NRBQ included a tribute song titled "Boozoo, That's Who" on their 1989 album Wild Weekend, on which both Boozoo and Charles Chavis also performed. In the song, Chavis is described as "the king of zydeco". Younger zydeco musician Jo Jo Reed released a song he wrote titled "Got It From Boo" on his 1995 album Funky Zydeco.

Several zydeco, Cajun, and musicians from other genres appeared on a tribute album titled Boozoo Hoodoo!: The Songs of Boozoo Chavis released in 2003 on the Fuel 2000 record label.

title: Boozoo Chavis