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Official (gridiron football)

In gridiron football, an official is a person who has responsibility in enforcing the rules and maintaining the order of the game.

During professional and most college football games, seven officials operate on the field. Since 2015, Division I college football conferences have used eight game officials, the Alliance of American Football (AAF) in its only season in 2019 and the 2020 version of XFL have used eight game officials. College games outside the Division I level use six or seven officials. Arena football, high school football, and other levels of football have other officiating systems, which use less than the standard seven officials. High school football played under the National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) rules typically use five officials for varsity and 3, 4, or 5 for non-varsity games.

Football officials are commonly, but incorrectly, referred to collectively as referees, but each position has specific duties and a specific name: Common positions include referee (which is the lead member of the officiating team), umpire, head linesman (or down judge), line judge, field judge (or back umpire), side judge, back judge and center judge. The CFL used an eighth official (with no official position name) only during the 2018 playoffs, but that official's only responsibility was watching for head contact with the quarterback. Because the referee is responsible for the general supervision of the game, the position is sometimes referred to as head referee or crew chief.

Equipment

American football officials generally use the following equipment:

 * Whistle: Used to signal a reminder to players that the ball is dead; i.e., that the play has ended or never began.
 * Penalty marker or flag:A bright-yellow-colored flag that is thrown on the field toward or at the spot of a foul. Officials in Canadian amateur football use an orange-colored flag; the CFL switched to yellow flags in 2022. For fouls where the spot is unimportant, such as fouls which occur at the snap or during a dead ball, the flag is typically thrown vertically. The flag is wrapped around a weight, such as sand or beans (or occasionally ball bearings, although this has been discouraged since an incident in an NFL game demonstrated that those could injure players), so that it can be thrown with some distance and accuracy and to ensure it remains in place and not moved by wind. Officials typically carry a second flag in case there are multiple fouls on a play. Officials who run out of flags when they see multiple fouls on a play may drop their hat or a bean bag instead.
 * Bean bag: Used to mark various spots that are not fouls but which may be possible spots of penalty enforcement or illegal touching of a scrimmage kick. For example, a bean bag is used to mark the spot of a fumble or the spot where a player caught a punt. It is typically colored white, blue, black, or orange, depending on the official's league, college conference, level of play, or weather conditions. Unlike penalty flags, bean bags may be tossed to a spot parallel to the nearest yard line, not necessarily to the actual spot.
 * Down indicator: A specially designed wristband that is used to remind officials of the current down. It has an elastic loop attached to it that is wrapped around the fingers. Usually, officials put the loop around their index finger when it is first down, the middle finger when it is second down, and so on. Instead of the custom-designed indicator, some officials use two thick rubber bands tied together as a down indicator: one rubber band is used as the wristband and the other is looped over the fingers. Some officials, especially umpires, may also use a second indicator to keep track of where the ball was placed between the hash marks before the play (i.e., the right hash marks, the left ones, or at the midpoint between the two). This is important when the ball is re-spotted after an incomplete pass or a foul.
 * Game data card and pencil: Officials write down important administrative information, such as the winner of the pregame coin toss, team timeouts, and fouls called. Game data cards can be disposable paper or reusable plastic. A pencil with a special bullet-shaped cap is often carried. The cap prevents the official from being stabbed by the pencil while it is in his pocket.
 * Stopwatch: Officials will carry a stopwatch (typically a digital wristwatch) when necessary for timing duties, including keeping game time, keeping the play clock, and timing timeouts and the interval between quarters.

Uniform
For ease of recognition, officials are usually clad in a black-and-white vertically striped shirt and black trousers with a thin white stripe down the side (this was formerly white knickers with black/white striped stirrup stockings or one-piece stockings). Officials also wear a black belt, black shoes, and a baseball cap. A letter indicating the role of each official appears on the back of the shirt at some levels, while NFL officials have numbers with a small letter or letters above. Shortly after the September 11, 2001 attacks, an American flag was added to the shirts of NFL officials, but was removed in 2006.

The stripes were introduced in the 1920s. Prior to this, plain white shirts were worn. College football referee Lloyd Olds is credited with the idea after a quarterback mistakenly handed the ball to him. The officials are colloquially called "zebras" due to their black-and-white striped shirts. In addition, officials wore white (or red) "newsboy" style hats.

During the 1940s, the NFL officials wore color-striped shirts that represented their positions; black and white for referees, red and white for umpires, orange and white for head linemen, and green and white for field judges. During most of the American Football League's existence (1960–1967), officials wore red-orange striped jerseys. Around this time, the hat style of the officials changed to the current baseball cap. The referees wore red hats, the others white, each with the AFL logo; the league switched to the standard black and white stripes emulating the elder league for their last two seasons before their merger with the NFL was completed (1968 and 1969). The red and orange look was recreated in 2009 during AFL Legacy Weekends to mark the 50th anniversary of the AFL's founding.

The original United States Football League, which played from February to July in its three-season existence from 1983 to 1985, allowed officials to wear black shorts for warm-weather games. The United Football League, which launched play in October 2009, featured officials wearing solid red polo shirts without stripes with black numbers and black pants. As no teams in the league wore red or orange, there was no prospect of a clash of colors. In 2010, the UFL switched to a customized version of the traditional black and white stripes, and wore this uniform until its 2012 shutdown.

In its single aborted season in 2019, The Alliance of American Football's officials wore shirts that are black and white on top with stripes from the middle down, white stars on the sleeves and the number on the back and on the left front pocket. The pants were black with no stripe and used the same hat system (white for the referee, black for all other officials) as all other levels of football.

Stripes on officials' shirts in high school are one inch wide and in college are two inches wide. Although in some states, high school officials wear shirts with two-inch or two and one-quarter inch stripes. NFL officials wear shirts with an uneven striping pattern. If wearing knickers, high school officials wear socks with a "Northwestern stripe" pattern, which college officials used to wear; NFL officials wore socks with two white stripes bordering one black stripe.

In 2006, the NFL completely redesigned the shirts, going to a sleeker-looking uniform which, however, no longer identified a given official's position from the front. Also new for 2006 were black pants with a white stripe down the side to be worn in cold weather instead of the traditional white knickers. These looser-fitting pants allow for layering of warmer clothes underneath. In the 2010 season, college officials and, in many states, high school officials, were given the option of wearing the black cold-weather pants. The black pants became mandatory for college officials in 2011 and for NFL officials in 2012. In 2014, several high school associations started mandating the wearing of the black slacks for varsity level games.

From 1982 to 1986, the D-I Atlantic Coast Conference allowed officials to wear white shorts for hot weather games.

For several decades, all NFL officials wore white hats. In 1979, the referees changed to black hats with white stripes, while the other officials continued to wear white ones. Finally, in 1988, the NFL switched to the high-school and college football convention: the referee wears a white hat (with the NFL logo since Super Bowl XXXIX), and the other officials wear black hats with white stripes. This has led to referees being referred to as "white hats". It was not until 2019 that the CFL finally mirrored this convention, which had also been in use at the lower levels of football in Canada; prior to this, the referee wore a black hat, with the other officiating crew members wearing white hats with a black bill and black piping.

Officials' hats are occasionally used as markers. If a player not carrying the ball steps out of bounds (a wide receiver running a deep passing route or a player running downfield on punt coverage, for example), the official will drop his hat to mark the spot of where the player went out of bounds. The hat also is often used to signal a second foul called by the official on a play (by those officials that may carry only one flag); to indicate unsportsmanlike conduct committed against the official himself (as when a player shoves an official); or when some other situation requires a physical mark and the official has already used the ordinary item on the play. Some conferences and high school associations discourage the use of the hat in these situations; the bean bag will be used instead.

Positions and responsibilities
The following are the positions and responsibilities of each officiating positions. Prior to the snap and during the play, each official, by position, has a specific area of responsibility on the field to watch specific player positions and watch for specific fouls. Using these prescribed mechanics ensures that the officiating crew sees all 22 players and their actions wherever they occur on the field. Additionally, during the dead-ball interval between plays, each official has separate administrative duties, such as counting players, timing the play clock, monitoring (or timing) the game clock, and spotting the ball as ready for the next down.

Referee

The referee (R) is responsible for the general supervision of the game and has the final authority on all rulings. In the NFL, the referee also has final authority on the score and the down number in case of any disagreement. Although all officials on the crew may be responsible for any decision involving the application or interpretation of the rules, the referee has the final decision. Thus, this position is sometimes referred to as head referee and is considered to be the crew chief. The referee can be identified by a white cap, while the other officials wear black caps (the hat color scheme was reversed in the NFL from 1979 to 1987, and in Canadian football until 2019).

During each play from scrimmage, the referee is positioned behind the offensive team, favoring the right side (if the quarterback is a right-handed passer). The referee also counts offensive players.

On passing plays, the referee primarily focuses on the quarterback and approaching defenders. The referee determines any fouls for roughing the passer and, if the quarterback loses the ball, determines whether the ball was fumbled or if an incomplete pass had been thrown.

On running plays, the referee observes the quarterback during and after the time he hands off the ball to a running back, focusing on him until the action has cleared in case the play becomes a play action pass or some other trick passing play. After it has been established that the running back will keep the ball, the referee then checks the running back and the contact behind him.

During punts and field goals, the referee observes the kicker (and holder) and any contact made by defenders approaching them. On a punt out of bounds, referees use their vantage point behind the punter to direct the nearest sideline official to the spot where the ball went out of bounds.

In college football, the NFL, and other professional leagues, and in some high school games, the referee announces penalties and the jersey numbers of the players committing them (required for college and professional games; high school referees are no longer prohibited from announcing the number of a player committing a foul; on rare occasions, the player's position is announced instead of the jersey number), and clarifies complex and/or unusual rulings over a wireless microphone to both fans and the media. CFL referees, unlike their counterparts in the NFL and American college football, identify the team committing the foul when announcing penalty enforcement, instead of using "offense" or defense".

During instant replay reviews in the NFL, the referee confers with the NFL's replay center in New York City, which makes the final ruling. In college football, the referee confers with a replay official, who is stationed in the press box above the field, on the play and then announces the final result over the wireless microphone.

In addition to the general equipment listed above, the referee also carries a coin to conduct the pregame (and if necessary, overtime) coin toss.

Umpire

The umpire (U) traditionally stands behind the defensive line and linebackers, observing the blocks by the offensive line and defenders trying to ward off those blocks, looking for holding or illegal blocks. Prior to the snap, he counts all offensive players.

During passing plays, umpires move forward towards the line of scrimmage as the play develops to penalize any offensive linemen who move illegally downfield before the pass is thrown or penalize the quarterback for throwing the ball when beyond the original line of scrimmage. The umpire also assists in ruling incomplete passes when the ball is thrown short.

As the umpire's traditional starting position is situated where much of the play's initial action occurs, it is considered by many to be the most dangerous officiating position. For this reason, the NFL carried out experiments in the 2001 preseason with the umpire placed in the offensive backfield adjacent to the referee. In March 2010, the NFL announced that this repositioning would be permanent, after five major injuries were suffered by umpires in 2009 (two concussions and three knee or shoulder injuries requiring surgery). From 2010 to 2015, the umpire returned to the defensive side of the line of scrimmage during the last five minutes of the second half. In 2016, this provision was deleted, and the umpire stood in the offensive backfield on all plays. In 2023 the NFL returned the umpire to the defensive backfield with the side judge for field goal and extra point attempts.

In addition to on-field duties, the umpire is responsible for the legality of all of the players' equipment.

Down judge/head line-judge/head linesman
The down judge (DJ) in the NFL, CFL, and the 2022 version of the USFL; head line-judge (H or HL) in college and some states for high school football; or head linesman (H or HL) stands at one end of the line of scrimmage (usually the side opposite the press box, always with the chain crew), looking for possible offsides, encroachment and other fouls before the snap. As the play develops, the head linesman is responsible for judging the action near that sideline, including whether a player is out of bounds. Responsibilities on a passing play include watching the receivers near that sideline to a point five to seven yards beyond the line of scrimmage.

The down judge/head line-judge marks the forward progress of the ball and is in charge of the chain crew with regard to its duties. In addition to the general equipment listed above, the head linesman/down judge also carries a chain clip that is used by the chain crew to properly place the chains and ensure an accurate spot when measuring for a first down.

The position was traditionally known as head linesman. The NFL transitioned to the gender-neutral term down judge in 2017, when it moved Sarah Thomas to the position. The following year, the CFL followed suit with the name change. The NCAA transitioned to the gender-neutral term head line-judge. Some states have revised their high school officials manuals to also use the term head line-judge.

Line judge
The line judge (L or LJ) assists the head linesman/down judge at the other end of the line of scrimmage, looking for possible offsides, encroachment and other fouls before the snap. As the play develops, line judges are responsible for the action near their sideline, including whether a player is out of bounds. A line judge is also responsible for counting offensive players.

During the start of passing plays, they watch the receivers near their sideline to a point five to seven yards beyond the line of scrimmage. Afterwards, the line judge moves back towards the line of scrimmage, ruling if a pass is forward, a lateral, or if it is illegally thrown beyond the line of scrimmage.

On punts and field goal attempts, the line judge also determines whether the kick is made from behind the line of scrimmage.

In some high school and minor leagues, the line judge is the official timekeeper of the game. In other leagues, the responsibility is assigned to the field judge or the back judge.

For the NFL, this was the sixth official, added in 1965.

Field judge
The field judge (F or FJ) or back umpire (BU) works downfield behind the defensive secondary on the same sideline as the line judge. The field judge makes decisions near the sideline on his or her side of the field, judging the action of nearby running backs, receivers and defenders. They rule on pass interference, illegal blocks downfield, and incomplete passes, and are also responsible for counting defensive players. The field judge has sometimes been the official timekeeper, and in a number of leagues will run the game clock on a six-person crew.

Together with the back judge, the field judge rules whether field goal attempts are successful.

For the NFL, this was the fourth official, added in 1929.

The position is called the back umpire in Canadian amateur football; all other leagues use the term field judge. However, in the CFL, this was the fifth official, added in 1951.

Side judge
The side judge (S or SJ) works downfield behind the defensive secondary on the same sideline as the head linesman or down judge. Like the field judge, the side judge makes decisions near the sideline on the nearest side of field, judging the action of nearby running backs, receivers and defenders. Side judges rule on pass interference, illegal blocks downfield, and incomplete passes, and also count defensive players. During field goal attempts field judges serve as a second umpire.

In college football, the side judge is responsible for either the game clock or the play clock, which are operated by an assistant that the side judge directs.

For the NFL and CFL, this was the seventh official, added in 1978 and 1991 respectively.

Back judge

The back judge (B or BJ) stands deep behind the defensive secondary in the middle of the field, judging the action of nearby running backs, receivers (primarily the tight ends) and nearby defenders. Like the side judge and the field judge, the back judge rules on pass interference, illegal blocks downfield, and incomplete passes. Back judges cover the area in the middle of the field between themselves and umpires. The back judge has the final say regarding the legality of kicks not made from scrimmage (kickoffs). The back judge is also responsible for ruling a "delay of game" infraction if the play clock expires.

Together with the field judge, the back judge rules whether field goal attempts are successful.

In college football and some high school leagues, the back judge is responsible for either the game clock or the play clock, which are operated by an assistant that the back judge directs.

For the NFL, this was the fifth official, added in 1947. However, in the CFL, this was the sixth official, added in 1979.

Center judge
The center judge (C) is positioned beside the referee in the offensive backfield adjacent to the referee, positioned equivalent to the umpire. Such responsibilities include ball spotting, penalty marking, and assisting the referee and umpire. In NCAA Division I FBS, the Center Judge becomes the "Acting Referee" should the referee become injured and unable to continue offiating. The NFL has experimented with the center judge in the 2015 preseason for 5 or 6 games,  but instead positioned 20 yards downfield of the line of scrimmage to observe the center and guards. In the professional level, the center judge has yet to be used in either the NFL or CFL; however, two leagues, the AAF and the 2020 XFL utilized the center judge.

In 2013, the D-I Big 12 Conference began using an eighth official, an alternate judge (A). The alternate judge stands in the offensive backfield opposite the head referee, in the same position as an NFL umpire, while keeping the Big 12 umpire in his traditional position behind the defensive line. The alternate judge will also help spot the ball. In the 2014 season, any conference that wanted to use the eight-official system could do so on an experimental basis. The Atlantic Coast Conference, Big Ten Conference, American Athletic Conference, and Big 12 Conference implemented an eight-official system for games; the eighth official's position name changed to center judge (C) but this judge's location on the field was the same as the alternate judge was in 2013. The eight-person crews were used in bowl games, including games in the College Football Playoff, since officials from conferences using eight-person crews were chosen for the three playoff games. In the 2015 season, the center judge became standard across all of FBS. It is also used by the Kansas Jayhawk Community College Conference.

Ball-spotting official
In the 2020 version of the XFL, there is one official dedicated to spotting the ball, with the purpose to reduce downtime during the game. This official wears a red cap.

Transitioning during turnovers, punts, and other returns
During turnovers, punts, and other returns by the defense, and play transitions from one direction to the other, the officials must also adjust. The field judge, side judge, and back judge become the trail/back positions, and the referee, head linesman/down judge, and line judge then become the lead/front positions. The umpire, having a traditional position in the middle of the field, usually stays stationary until the returner and the other players are past.

Replay official
The replay official is located upstairs in the stadium of the game played. They can initiate replay reviews on in certain circumstances.

In CFL football, the replay official is not located at the stadium itself, but rather at the CFL Command Centre at the CFL Head Office in Toronto. The official is responsible for the final determination of challenges made by the two teams' head coaches; and in the final 3 minutes (and all of overtime) of the game initiating a review of any play they believe warrants such attention. The official also reviews all scoring plays during the game. When a review is underway, the referee speaks to the replay official via headset at the sideline. The replay official has the final call over all challenges and reviews.

U Sports and other leagues in Canada do not utilize the replay-review process.

Sky judge
The Alliance of American Football used the sky judge, who had the authority to assess penalties (or overturn penalties) for unsafe play, and (within the final five minutes of the fourth quarter) either call or overturn pass interference penalties against either the offense or defense. The XFL (2020) has adopted this.

Alternate
One or more alternate(s) may be designated to replace any on-field official who is injured or otherwise unable to finish a game.

In some leagues, alternates are only appointed for postseason play when there are typically an ample number of qualified officials available to work the reduced number of games.

CFL eighth official
Late in the 2018 playoffs, the CFL added an eighth official to the on-field crew; it did not have an official position title. This official lined up in the offensive backfield, and whose sole responsibility was judging helmet contact on the quarterback. This position was only used in the Eastern and Western finals and the Grey Cup. The eighth official did not return in 2019.

Deep judge
In four games in the 2010 preseason, the NFL experimented with an eighth official, a deep judge (DJ), in the defensive backfield opposite the back judge. The primary responsibility for this new position is the action of receivers, and it allowed the NFL to adjust coverage after the umpire was moved to the offensive backfield. The experiment was continued for 12 games in the 2011 preseason, and was then discontinued afterwards.

Second umpire
For the 2015 and 2019 NFL preseasons, for 8 and 2 games respectively, the NFL experimented with the umpire (U2), positioned in the offensive backfield. Their responsibilities were to focus on center pre-snap and offensive guards and tackles.

Middle judge
For the 2016, 2017, and 2019 NFL preseasons, for 16, 5, and 2 games respectively, the NFL experimented with the middle judge (MJ). Main responsibilities were to look for holding near the line of scrimmage. The middle judge is placed in the center of the field, adjacent to the back judge (BJ).

History
When the NFL began in 1920, only three officials (referee, umpire, and head linesman) were used. The field judge was added in 1929 and the back judge in 1947. In response to scrambling quarterbacks (Fran Tarkenton in particular), the line judge was added in 1965 to watch the opposite side of the line of scrimmage. The side judge was added for 1978, when the NFL implemented new rules to open up the passing game. In 2017, the NFL renamed the head linesman to down judge.

Up until 1950, the forerunner leagues to the present-day Canadian Football League (founded in 1958) used only four officials: The referee, umpire, head linesman and line judge. Over the next 40 years, the system would change into what is more-or-less equal to what most American football leagues use today, a seven-official system. The first new addition to the crew was the field judge (also referred to as the back umpire) in 1951, then the next addition being the back judge in 1979, and the seventh official, the side judge being added in 1991.

The practice of having the referee announce penalties or clarify complex and/or unusual rulings over a wireless microphone started in the NFL in 1975. College football and other professional leagues soon adopted this practice.

For years, college football referees were prohibited from announcing the number of a fouling player, except in the Western Athletic Conference and Mountain West Conference (and in all conferences when ejecting the offending player). In 2004, the rules were changed throughout college football to permit the fouling player's number to be announced. Under NFHS rules used in all states except Texas for high school games, announcing the player's number went from "not allowed" to "not required" in 2014.

Among the various Halls of Fame for major North American sports, the Pro Football Hall of Fame is unique in that it did not induct any officials until Art McNally in 2022; the Baseball Hall of Fame, Basketball Hall of Fame, and Hockey Hall of Fame have each inducted numerous game officials as members. (1966 inductee Hugh L. Ray was inducted for his 14-season tenure as the league's head of officiating, an off-field position.) However, in Canada, the Canadian Football Hall of Fame has inducted a few game officials as members of their Hall of Fame.

NFL employment status
Because their regular season spans only 18 weeks, the NFL is one of only two major sports leagues in the United States that only pay their officials on a contract basis as opposed to being full-time salaried employees, the other being Major League Soccer. Advantages to this system include being able to eliminate unqualified officials simply by not offering them a contract the following season. Critics argue that full-time officials would be free from the distractions of a second job, but proponents of part-time officials point out that the NFL would lose a number of qualified officials because many of them are owners, presidents, or CEOs of various companies. Proponents also argue that there is only one game per week and the regular season is only four months long, and that having full-time officials does not necessarily guarantee that they will make fewer officiating mistakes. The level of training and review in which NFL officials participate makes additional time redundant. In any event, veteran officials can earn substantial salaries for their work. The NFL Referees Association serves as the union that represents officials in the NFL.

Female officials
Historically, American football officials have been men.

In 2007, Sarah Thomas became the first woman to officiate a major college football game, working a game between Memphis and Jacksonville State. Thomas later became the first woman to officiate a bowl game when she worked as a line judge during the 2009 Little Caesars Pizza Bowl between Marshall and Ohio. Since then, other women have officiated Division I college football games. In 2015, Thomas became the NFL's first permanent female official. She entered as a line judge, and moved to the down judge (head linesman) role in her third season. In 2017, she was an alternate in an NFL wild card game. In 2019, she became the first female official to officiate an NFL playoff game in an AFC divisional round between Los Angeles Chargers at New England Patriots. She worked NFC divisional games in 2020 and 2021, and was the down judge for Super Bowl LV.

In 2021, line judge Maia Chaka became the NFL's second full-time female on-field official. Robin DeLorenzo became the third the next season when she was hired as a down judge.

Terri Valenti became the first woman to officiate professional football when she began working United Football League games in 2009. The UFL later hired Thomas in 2010. In 2017, the NFL hired her as a replay official. She officated the 2020 AFC Championship game. She is also doing replay officiating for the XFL.

In 2012, Shannon Eastin became the first female official of an NFL game. She was a replacement line judge while the league had locked out the regular officials due to a labor dispute. Darin Gantt of Profootballtalk.com and Sam Farmer of the Los Angeles Times lamented that it was in this manner that this gender barrier was broken.

In 2017, Amanda Sauer-Cook became the first ever female referee in a Division I game,. Her first game as referee was Morgan State at Rutgers. She is also the first openly bisexual official to work in a major professional football league and in college football. For the defunct 2019 Alliance of American Football, and the 2020 XFL, she works as center judge.

In 2019, the AAF had three female officials. In 2020, the XFL has six female officials. Having six total officiating crews, there will be one female official for each crew. There is also one female replay official.

title: Official (gridiron football)


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Wikipedia:Notice board for India-related topics/INCOTW/History

The Indian collaboration of the week process began on February 6, 2005. The winners for each week are listed below, along with a brief summary of how it was improved during its featured week.

The template should be added to the talk pages of past collaborations.

To archive a vote, move it to Wikipedia:Notice_board_for_India-related_topics/INCOTW/Article Name, and create a link to it in the table (vote column).

Please update the table with at least the Date and Article title - the rest can be done later. (see below table for more details)

Updating the table
To update the table with the details on past collaborations, this text should be put into the top of the table, replacing words with details where necessary:

 * Month Day Year||Article Name || Number of votes||See ||

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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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Aeromar Líneas Aéreas Dominicanas

Aeromar Líneas Aéreas Dominicanas (also known as Aeromar Airlines) was an airline based in the Dominican Republic.

History

The airline was founded as Aeromar Cargo in 1962 as an airfreight forwarder and all-cargo carrier. The airline was then established in 1998 as a passenger carrier by Raymundo Polanco Alegria to replace the defunct Dominicana de Aviación. Polanco-Alegria was an Air Force military commander and a key figure in the Rebellion of the Pilots movement in November 1961, when military action was taken by a group of aviators to guarantee the democratic process after the death of the dictator Rafael Leonidas Trujillo

Aeromar services began with a single Boeing 727 leased from Falcon Air Express, for routes to Miami and San Juan. In 2001, it bought a Boeing 747 to a new route to Madrid, but the route was suspended 5 months later due to heavy competition with Iberia. In 2002, new services to New York, In 2003 The Airlines began to fly to Aruba, Havana and Caracas with Boeing 737, 757 and 767. In 2003, the airline ceased operations. Aeromar was the first airline to fly New York– Santiago, DR route in 2002.

Routes

 * Santo Domingo (SDQ) - New York (JFK)
 * Santo Domingo (SDQ) - Miami (MIA)
 * Santo Domingo (SDQ) - San Juan, PR (SJU)
 * Santo Domingo (SDQ) - Aruba (AUA)
 * Santo Domingo (SDQ) - Havana (HAV)
 * Santiago (STI) - New York (JFK)
 * Santiago (STI) - San Juan, PR (SJU)

Destinations

 * New York City (John F. Kennedy International Airport) Hub
 * Miami (Miami International Airport) Focus city
 * Madrid (Barajas International Airport) Service launched but ended a week later
 * San Juan (Luis Muñoz Marín International Airport) 2002
 * Caracas (Simón Bolívar International Airport)
 * Havana (José Martí International Airport)
 * Aruba (Queen Beatrix International Airport)
 * Curaçao (Curaçao International Airport)

Fleet
The Aeromar Líneas Aéreas Dominicanas fleet consists of the following aircraft:

title: Aeromar Líneas Aéreas Dominicanas


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Common emerald

The common emerald (Hemithea aestivaria) is a moth of the family Geometridae. The species is found throughout the Nearctic and Palearctic regions and the Near East. It is mostly commonly found in the southern half of the Ireland and Britain. It was accidentally introduced into southern British Columbia in 1973.

All wings are generally dark green with grey and white chequered fringes and narrow white fascia, two on the forewing, one on the hindwing. The green colouration tends not to fade over time as much as in other emeralds. The hindwings have a sharply angled termen giving the moth a very distinctive shape. The wingspan is 30–35 mm. It flies at dusk and night in June and July and will come to light.

The larva is green with reddish-brown markings and black v-shaped marks along the back. The young larva will feed on most plants but later it feeds on trees and shrubs. The species overwinters as a larva.

 * 1)  The flight season refers to the British Isles. This may vary in other parts of the range.

Recorded food plants

 * Aralia
 * Artemisia
 * Betula – birch
 * Camellia
 * Carpinus – hornbeam
 * Castanea – chestnut
 * Citrus
 * Corylus – hazel
 * Crataegus - hawthorn
 * Diervilla – bush honeysuckle
 * Hypericum – St John's wort
 * Juglans – walnut
 * Larix – larch
 * Ligustrum – privet
 * Malus – apple
 * Morus – mulberry
 * Photinia
 * Prunus
 * Quercus – oak
 * Rhamnus – buckthorn
 * Ribes – currant
 * Rosa – rose
 * Rubus
 * Salix – willow
 * Sorbus – rowan
 * Tilia – lime
 * Vaccinium
 * Viburnum

title: Common emerald


text:
User talk:Sundar/Archive0

This is an archive of some selected discussions as of February 8, 2005.

Welcome message
Hi there. Welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like it here and stick around. If you want, you can drop us a note at New user log to introduce yourself.

I noticed that your article at Data Mining is a duplicate of Data mining, so I turned it into a redirect. Most of the time, assume we already have articles on subjects like that - if you don't find it, you might not be looking under the right name.

If you need editing help, visit How does one edit a page. For format questions, visit our manual of style. You can use the Show preview button before you save, to make sure your edits do what you intended.

You can sign your name on talk pages by using " " for your username and " ~ " for your username and a timestamp.

Some time when you're bored, you can read through our policies and guidelines.

If you have any other questions about the project then check out Help or add a question to the Village pump. You can also drop me a question on my talk page.

Happy editing, Isomorphic 07:15, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks Isomorphic -- Sundar 07:53, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

A minor grammar issue
I guess in your signatures list, it should've been One who mixes sports than One who mix sports. Any way, they were good.--Sundar 11:12, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm very poor in English. Thanks for correcting me. Nice to see you in Wikipedia. Wishes. --Rrjanbiah 13:53, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Rajesh, we need not be defensive about our knowledge of English as it is not our native language. Even, my English is not all that good. Thanks for your wishes. I've read your views on Kural. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll reply there.
 * -- Sundar 04:59, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Sundar for your loving advice. I gratefully accept your advice. But now, I have the notion that newsgroups and blogs will be a better choice than Wiki like thing. --Rrjanbiah 04:51, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your wishes --Rrjanbiah 08:37, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Java
Please disambiguate Java on your User page. Thanks. RedWolf 01:01, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)

 * Done. Thanks, Redwolf.
 * -- Sundar 05:58, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)

Wikidreams
Hi Sundar - I think this is a page I created by mistake, I moved my talk to Wikipedia talk:Wikidreams, so as far as I'm concerned this page can de deleted... Calexico (Talk) 11:29, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hijra (India)
To: User:Chancemill, User:Sundar, User:Harikishoreaj, User:Nichalp, User:KRS, User:Ambarish, User:Arvindn

The Hijra article needs some help/comments. If you know more on the subject, please feel free to comment at Talk:Hijra (India). Thanks. --Rrjanbiah 04:24, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Rajesh, I do not (though I would like to) have a thorough understanding of Hijra. May be I'll study the topic and then edit the page.
 * -- Sundar 05:09, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks Sundar, for your reply. --Rrjanbiah 06:01, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Mitochondrial DNA
Hi, I forgot that most people don't have access to that page :-( The link now points to the PubMed page with abstract, and link to the full article for those who do have access. --Magnus Manske 12:47, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

Look-over
I'll check it out- can't promise tonight, but def tommorow, and see what all I can add to it. Might do a bit of reorganizing/factoring into sections and such. Lyellin 05:12, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Thank You
My spelling is very bad, and I often do not pay attention to details. Thanks. :) func(talk) 04:31, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Image:Iiit-b-logo.jpg
Hi. Image:Iiit-b-logo.jpg didn't seem to upload properly. Would you mind uploading it again? Vacuum | tcw 03:36, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * Hi Vaccuum, I uploaded Image:Iiitb-logo.png thereby making Image:Iiit-b-logo.jpg redundant. Feel free to remove this image. Thanks. -- Sundar 06:06, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

Version 1.0 Editorial Team
Hi, Sundar. I was wondering whether you're still interested in this project and whether you have any suggestions or comments. Maurreen 08:01, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi Maureen. Of late, I'm not able to devote a lot of time to Wikipedia. However, I continue to make some small edits. I am in principle a supporter of the Version 1.0 Editorial Team, but sorry that I won't be able to contribute actively and significantly for the effort. I'll continue to watch that, though. -- Sundar 06:26, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Talk:Tamil alphabet
Ping: Talk:Tamil alphabet

(Uhhh, and BTW, I'd sorry for not doing a followup on Venpa, but User:Dbachmann is a far better reviewer than me anyway)

Pjacobi 09:20, 2005 Jan 21 (UTC)

 * I've replied in Talk:Tamil alphabet. I agree with you. Feel free to revert me. No problem with Venpa since User:Dbachmann has already done it. -- Sundar 09:33, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

India-geo-stub
Hi Sundar - I note the picture I designed for the india-geo-stub has been changed. Fair enough but I deliberately avoided using a map for a very good reason - Kashmir. Any indication via a map in a stub message that Kashmir belongs on one or other side of the I-P border loses some of the NPOV status of the article. Of course, it is possible that there are issues of cultural insensitivity with using the Wheel of Destiny as a compass rose, and if so then it makes sense to change it... I'm just not convinced that a map is the best alternative. Grutness|hello? 06:43, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Grutness, your concern makes sense to me. Feel free to revert me. -- Sundar 06:50, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks... and also thanks for the good work on India-related articles! Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]]
 * Several countries have geo-stubs using their national arms... perhaps the Asokan lions would be better for India than the wheel? [[Image:Emblem of India.svg|30px|]] What do you think?  Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 04:06, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Grutness, are you reading my mind? I had the same thought, go ahead with the plan. -- Sundar 04:08, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * OK - thanks :) Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 06:47, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Seeking you support
I am seeking your support and participation for starting the "Indian Collaboration of the Week". Please enlist your support on the page Wikipedia_talk:Indian_wikipedians%27_notice_board if you would like to support. Thanks Arunram 09:37, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi Arunram, I've already enlisted myself to that. Thanks. -- Sundar 09:39, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

Sundar, thanks for your participation and support. Look forward to editing collboratively with you. Arunram 12:41, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi, I seek your support in bootstrapping WP:INCOTW. The infrastructure is in place. We only need a popular support and participation for the COTW. Please spread the word around and let other wikipedians know. Regards Arunram 15:21, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sure. I'll do that. -- Sundar 15:35, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar
Thanks for the barnstar. You too are doing a good job on the political front. Nichalp 18:15, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks Nichalp. -- Sundar 06:54, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sundar/Archive0


text:
Talk:Dalian

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 March 2019 and 8 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Eddiegaooooo.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:46, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): ZoeXin.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Inter-governmental clarification
I made a small correction in "Inter-governmental". The previous version used "Japan maintains a Consulate General office and a JETRO office in Dalian." For clarity sake, it now says " Japan maintains a branch office for its Consulate-General of Japan at Shenyang and a JETRO office in Dalian". This is because the previous version can be interpreted to mean that there is another consulate general in Dalian for Japan which is incorrect. Source from Ministry of Foreign Affairs of JapanAnyu (talk) 15:44, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Grammar correction
I made a small grammar correction in "Sightseeing and Attractions". The previous version used "It is about 800m long and is an excellent for swimming." For clarity sake, it now says "It is about 800m long and is an excellent place for swimming." I will be traveling to Dalian for the first time in a few days, and will try to add to the page on my return. Stringbean 15:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Sections
What to do? sports as a topic at cultural life, or as a chapter sports, because now it is 2 times mentioned? (RvD) (What is luda???) I suggest to put cultural life, education, sports behind each other.

why is this directed from luda?

Italic text (Chinese characters following): 现在还存在"新金州区"这样的计划或者说法吗?我好像从来也没听说过哦. 如果没有异议的话我先删掉了.欢迎到我的讨论页留言.--Mickeymousechen 10:33, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup request - Off By Forty Miles
I'm placing this clean here as this matter needs attention by someone with appropriate geographical references.

Lushun (Port Arthur) is about 40 miles from Dalian, The first paragraph is thus in error. The opening sentence should probably read that Lushun is administered as a district or sub-port of Dalian, which I believe I've seen somewhere in text, but the whole statement seems to be an akward way of interposing the free port (City) status onto the geography. Moreover, iirc, Dalian may be unique in the world in that both sides of the peninsula have useful deepwater harbors and are used that way. Any article covering the city should cover this fact. (See the landsat photo herein), albeit 80 plus nautical miles apart by boat or ship, but only a brief flight to Jonathan Livingston Seagull. In any event, this needs untangled by someone with better geographical references than I have, being concerned with the Russo-Japanese war. Sorry. Fabartus 22:59, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Golden Pebble Beach
This national resort area should have its own discussion.

I do not know enough to write the article but I do know that this area is protected from certain kinds of development, has a world-class 36 hole golf course, every August hosts some kind of festival or something similar, now has a really nice road leading there and is the terminus of the Dalian commuter railway. There are several luxury housing and hotel projects currently under construction. This area has some unique rock structures along the water's edge and has many areas where fossils are being dug up.

I am sure that there are many other important and fascinating facts and details that could be added by someone who is more familiar with it than I and I encourage someone to write an article and post some pictures. I do have a couple of suitable pictures that I can add if the article is written.

Thanks,

California Tiger

 * Hey, Are you really a tiger or just a couger trying to pass as one? --Manchurian Tiger 01:49, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Hey Manchurian Tiger - How have you been? My wife told me that you posted here.  You inspired my name.  Any guesses as to who I am?  Say hello to your wife and son for me.  p.s. Take a look at Dalian on Google Earth.  It is really cool.  Maybe we could post a picture here.  It is much better than the satellite photo posted here. - California Tiger 03:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

 * hi buddy. I sure knew who you are right away when you first showed up here. I did some work on this article and contributed some pictures including that Lushun Train Station picture I took this spring. Have fun.--Manchurian Tiger 02:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Origin of Name
Does anyone know why the name "Port Arthur" was originally given to the city/district? ~ Dpr 04:02, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Port Arthur was named after a British navy captain. He sailed his ship to the port after it was damaged during a conflict later 1800s. I don't quite remember the details but if I found more I'll post here.--Manchurian Tiger 02:39, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you...though why did the Russians adopt such a name? --Dpr 22:36, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

what does Dalny mean in Russian? Hanfresco 03:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

"Faraway" Bogomolov.PL 09:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Transportation
Section seems kinda vague. E.g. the full list of international/domestic destinations by plane is available here, is it usual practise to include this information? http://www.dlairport.com/English/CityConnections.htm

More importantly, the 客轮 (translate as "ferry" rather than "oceanliner"? It doesn't travel on the open ocean; but the amenities on board are more like a cruise ship than a commuter ferry) probably deserves some more mention, seeing as it is a more unusual form of travel (especially international travel). Right now the cities served include Yantai, Tianjin, and Incheon (S. Korea). The Incheon ferry runs 3x/week, with the whole trip taking about 16 hours. Since it's about 60% less than a plane ticket, a lot of students from Korea coming for holiday/studying take the ferry instead of a plane. http://www.daking.com.cn/Article_Print.asp?ArticleID=3336

cab 21:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Climate
It would be nice if there was a reference to the climate during the different seasons (in geography). I might be living there next year, and it would have been a usefull addition. ABart26 17:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Massive deletions
Could anybody explain why the following passage was deleted from the article:

"Part of the State of Yan in the Spring and Autumn Period, a minor fishing village Ch'ing-ni-wa became a small town in the 1880s, when the Qing Empire established bridges, cannon platforms and camps there. The settlement was occupied by the British in 1858, returned to the Chinese in the 1880s, and then occupied by Japan in 1895 during the first Sino-Japanese War.

In 1898, the Russians took the lease of the peninsular and established Port Arthur (Lüshunkou) as ice-free headquarters of their Pacific Fleet and Dalnyi as a major commercial port. The city's name is derived from the Russian word "dalnyi", which means "distant (port)". Recently, some Chinese scholars pointed out that the Chinese form of the name, Dalian, had been used as early as October 1879, in a document by Li Hongzhang.

Both Dalny (Qingniwaqiao 青泥洼桥 of Zhongshan District, Dalian) and Port Arthur were developed and heavily fortified by the Russians in the period prior to 1904. Consequently, some historians blame the fall of Port Arthur, a world shaking event of epic proportions, during the siege of Port Arthur on January 2nd, 1905 for the failure by Admiral Eugene Alexeieff, to concentrate on the naval base and its fortifications, instead spliting precious resources shipped 5,000 miles across the single tracked Trans-Siberian Railway and Manchurian railways.

After the Russo-Japanese war Port Arthur was conceded to Japan (Treaty of Portsmouth), who set up the Kwantung Leased Territory or Guandongzhou. Since the foundation of Manchukuo in 1932, the sovereignty of the territory moved from China to Manchukuo. Japan still leased it from Manchukuo. In 1937, the modern Dalian City was enlarged and modernized by the Japanese as two cities: the northern Dairen (Dalian) and the southern Ryojun (Lushun)." -- Ghirla -трёп-  11:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I had a quick glance at this and I see no problems with it. Give your detractors some time to respond, and then you can include. As for Dalian vs. Dalny, I know that the Gulf of Dalian got its name before 1898 and I have seen Chinese records referring to Dalian wan 大連灣. I don't think we need to prove who was first, it suffices to state that both names were in use at the time of tjhe foundation of the city.--Niohe 16:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the current version is better. The above to too long and too many unnecessary info, in consideration of other sections of the article. Zhang Qiang 19:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Massive deletions reverted. `'mikka (t) 04:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Dalny
I added the Russian name in the heading, follwing the practice in Harbin. --Niohe 18:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Dalian is just too far away for you to add Russian name. What's wrong with you? Snle 17:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't get what you mean with "too far away". --Niohe 18:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

This is an English Wikipedia. There is no need for Russian language. There are a lot of languages in the world. Why do you want to put Russian name here. Is it because Dalian was invaded by Russians before or sth? Snle 19:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, this is English Wikipedia, thanks for reminding me. But why don't we do away with all kinds of variant Chinese renderings and content ourselves with just one?

 * Well, the particular rationale here would be that the Russians founded Dalian as a modern city and named it accordingly. That is part of that city's history just as much as any other city in the world. As you are no doubt aware of, there are precedents for giving multiple names for cities on Wikipedia, such as İzmir and Gdańsk. --Niohe 19:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Dalian existed well before the Russians came. Snle 19:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, they built the city, but I guess that is not important to you. Anyway, that was not my only argument. Shall we go and change the articles on İzmir and Gdańsk, following your suggestions?--Niohe 19:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Go ahead. Change them. But Dalian is different from them. It was only temporily occupied by invaders. So only English and Chinese names are needed here. Snle 19:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you seriously suggesting that we change those articles? Or can I reinsert Mukden into Shenyang?--Niohe 19:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Anyway, I have reinserted Dalny and added Dairen to the heading of this article. Hope it stays this way. The Russians and Soviets continued using the name Dalny long after the city fell into Japanese hands, and the name Dairen was the most commonly used name in English for a long time. I think it has an encyclopedic value to include both. If someone disagrees, please come back to the discussion.--Niohe 00:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Considering Dalian's history with heavy influence by Russia and Japan, it makes sense to list the Russian and Japanese names.--Manchurian Tiger 00:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The Russians and Japanese they build the railways in their own interest, not in the interest of the Chinese. Versions in other languages is only one click away, on the left of the article. It is ridiculous to have Russian and Japanese language here.Zhang Qiang 19:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Stop these deletions of verifiable content, this is clearly a WP:POINT edit. Whether the Russians and Japanese built railways in their own interest is immaterial.--Niohe 19:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not point of view thing. Dalian was also heavily influenced by the Mongols and Koreans. How many languages do you need to put here. This is an English encyclopedia. Stop adding other languages. Zhang Qiang 19:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * What are you talking about? If you're a serious contributor to Wiki not just wanna pick a fight here, let me teach you something about history: In Dalian's history, the Russians and Japanese both established legitimate governments and ruled the city for a considerable time with the offial names in their languages widely recognized. Whereas neither Mongols nor Koreans did, and Dalian never had offial names in Mongolian or Korean except translations. The infrastructure of modern Dalian were built first by the Russians then the Japanese, the last, the Chinese. That why I said listing the Russian and Japanese names makes sense here because in many historic publications Dalian is under these names.--Manchurian Tiger 02:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Dalian was under Mongol and Korean control during the Yuan dynasty and Goguryeo. The Russian name "Dalny" doesn't even exist in English. If you look it up in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. You even can't find this word. As for the Japanese word, it is totally inappropriate for you to put it here in consideration of Japanese invasion of Northeast China during World War II. Zhang Qiang 14:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

 * During the Yuan dynasty and Goguryeo, there was no Dalian at all. Talking about Dalian by Yuan and Goguryeo times is like talking about computer in 1600s. It totally makes no sense at all. Regarding Japanese invasion, what does it have anything to do with a city's name which was adopted about 50 years before? Wiki is not a political forum, if you wanna sell you nationalist mania crap, go some where else to dump your *****.--Manchurian Tiger 15:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Lao Zhang, if you ever bothered to look at sources from the early twentieth century, you would find both Dalny and Dairen in use. Just take a look at this map, for instance.

As to whether a name should be included into Wikipedia or not, the extent to which that name is considered "offensive" by some people or not is immaterial. Please look at to the article on Xinjiang for reference.--Niohe 16:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't see how Xinjiang is relevant here. As you know, Xinjiang is an autonomous regions. The languages used in are local languages. There is nothing wrong with that. Anyway, the words you want add are nonstandard outdated words. It is better keep them in the history section. Zhang Qiang 17:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Zhang Qiang, if you don't stop disrupting wikipedia by deleting information, and putting misleading edit summaries, you will be blocked from editing. `'mikka (t) 18:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

 * First, Zhang Qiang, you did not respond to the evidence I presented.

 * Second, Xinjiang is relevant because the very name Xinjiang "is considered offensive by many advocates of independence, who prefer to use historical or ethnic names", as the article points out. Are we to exclude that name on those grounds? Of course not. Similarly, you should refrain from editing verifiable content that you find offensive.--Niohe 20:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

As you said yourself. The words you want to add were used in the early twentieth century. They are definitely outdated. As for Xinjiang is offensive to independence advocates doesn't help here at all. At least it is not offensive for the local people and governoment. On the other hands the non-standard, outdated words you want to add are offensive to local Dalian people and the governoment. Zhang Qiang 20:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

 * May I ask for a source supporting those very bold statements? And could you explain to me why the taking of offence of one group should be taken more seriously than other groups? When I visited Xinjiang I found a lot of people that were offended by the word Xinjiang. I hope you can take my word for it, but I still don't think it's a good idea changing the article on Xinjiang because of that. If you feel uncomfortable with the verifiable contents that other editor post at Wikipedia, I suggest that you refrain for using this resource.--Niohe 20:25, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, Xinjiang is the official name, like Dalian. At least nobody will find it offensive, if those nonstandard words are moved to the history sections. Zhang Qiang 20:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Dalian is a Chinese city, not a Japanese or Russian one. It is totally inappropriate to put Japanese and Russian names here. Snle 17:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Please familiarize yourself with Naming conventions. Istanbul is a Turkish city, yet we have the Greek name up there for historical reasons. — Khoikhoi 20:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such policy for Chinese cities. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 918 (talk • contribs).

 * Where's the rule that says we can't have historical names at the top? — Khoikhoi 20:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such rule that says it is a must to put nonstandard, outdated names on the heading either. Since there are people offended by your addition, it is better not to list them on the top of the article. People only need to know these words, when it comes to history. So some indication in the history section will do it. 918 21:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I disagree. We shouldn't hide these names in the history section, remember what I said about serving the reader? By having them at the top the reader can see the names right away from easier reference. As I said before, compare to Lviv and Istanbul... — Khoikhoi 21:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

(To Snle/Zhang Qiang/918) If not being offensive is so important to you, User:Snle, why did you choose the date of the Japanese invasion of Manchuria as your new username?--Niohe 21:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a number not a date. 918 21:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

 * So I must have misunderstood this completely then.--Niohe 21:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You see. Taiwan was liberated by the Japanese from the Machu Qing's enslavement. And Taiwanese are quite grateful for that. If your reasoning holds water, then every city in Taiwan should have a Japanese name on the top of its article then. Zhang Qiang 15:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I will add that today Dalian has a strong russian influence (we can see some adds in the city in russian beside japanese and chinese of course), there is a russian little town in Dalian, and there are a lot of russians tourists in Dalian. I think that the name in russian should be kept :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anselme (talk • contribs)

Historical names
Snle, it's important to have historical names for cities at the top, not just the current ones. The question is really what serves the reader, and by erasing these names I don't think we're helping them at all. You will find similar policies in other areas which have been governed or populated by many different language groups over time. For example:

 * Sibiu (IPA [si'biw], German: Hermannstadt, Hungarian: Nagyszeben) -- in Romania
 * Lviv (Ukrainian: Львів, L’viv [ljviw], German: Lemberg; Polish: Lwów; Russian: Львов, Lvov; see also other names) -- in Ukraine

I think it is a good thing to represent all the history of a place, not just its recent history. — Khoikhoi 17:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I couldn't agree more with the above. I find it very useful to have historical names at the top of the page.--Niohe 19:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The place was known as Lü-Ta both in China and in the West for more than thirty years, between 1944 and 1981. It's ridiculous that this is erased from the article.Strausszek (talk) 04:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Wasn't it also called Beifeng (北丰)? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 21:06, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

History of Dalian
The following is the history information about Dalian I find at Dalian's official website. . As you can see Dalian was not founded by the Russians or Japanese.

"As early as 6000 years ago, our ancestors first exploited Dalian region. In Qin and Han period (221B.C.-220A.D.), Dalian region was under the jurisdiction of Liaodong county. In the early period of Tang Dynasty (618-907), Dalian region was under the jurisdiction of Andong Prefecture in Jili state, and in Liao Dynasty (916-1125), it was under the jurisdiction of Dong Jing Tong Liaoyang county. Dalian was named Sanshan in the period of Weijin (220-420), San Shanpu in Tang Dynasty (618-907), Sanshan Seaport in Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) and Qing Niwakou in Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). In the 1880’s, Qing government constructed loading bridges and fortifications with built-in cannons, and set up mine camps in the northern coast of Dalian gulf, making it become a small town. After the invasion and occupation of Russia, the city was called Qing Niwa and was renamed Dalian in 1899.During the 1st and 2nd Opium War, Dalian was invaded and harassed by the British army. As the main battlefield of the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895 and Japanese-Russian War, Dalian suffered great calamity in these two wars in modern history. Consequently, Dalian became Russian and Japanese colony for nearly half a century, meanwhile under the Japanese colonial rule for 40 years. The unconditional surrender of Japan on August of 1945 marks the liberation of Dalian in the anti-fascist war, thus ends 40 years’ colonial rule over the city. On September of the same year, the Preparatory Committee of Dalian Workers' Union was founded. On October, the northeast bureau of the Communist Party of China appointed Mr. Hanguan secretary of the CPC Dalian Committee, and the CPC Dalian Committee and Dalian municipal government were founded. On July of 1946, the CPC Dalian Committee was reorganized into the CPC Lüda committee. From 1949 to 1956, the socialist transformation was almost finished. From 1957 to 1966, the all-around socialist construction started. From 1966 to 1976, Dalian experienced the Cultural Revolution. After 1976, Dalian entered the new period of socialist modernization construction. In 1984, Dalian was approved by the State Council to be the coastal open-up city and was designated as the city with separate economic plan in 1985, enjoying provincial level decision-making authority." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 918 (talk • contribs) 20:20, 1 October 2006.

 * What's your point? Do you think the criteria for having historic names at the top means they have to be founded by a certain ethnic group? — Khoikhoi 20:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

That's the ridiculous logic Niohe uses.918 20:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

 * What did he say? — Khoikhoi 20:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You can see the above disscussion. Anyway, Dalian is a Chinese city not Russian or Japanese one. There shouldn't Russian or Japanese names on the heading of this article. 918

 * No, Zhang Qiang/Snle, that is not my logic. But if the Russians built Dalian as a modern city, it might be relevant to mention the name they gave the city.--Niohe 20:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

(to 918) It is common practice at Wikipedia to have historical names at the top. Did you see the example I gave about Lviv? It's a Ukranian city, yet we have the German, Polish, and Russian names up there. To erase these names would be something called 沙文主义. — Khoikhoi 20:37, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

 * BTW, why don't we use the authoritative Encyclopædia Britannica as an example?

 * Lü-ta: also called (locally) Ta-lien, Pinyin Lüda, or Dalian, Russian Dalny, conventional and Japanese Dairen, city and port on the Liaotung Peninsula, Liaoning sheng (province), China. The name derives from a combination of Lü-shun and Ta-lien.

 * I don't see Britannica erasing historical names from city articles because they are Chinese cities today. — Khoikhoi 22:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

918:

It is normal practice to provide the names of cities and regions in a variety of languages, including the languages of surrounding countries, the languages of former empires and powers, the languages of ethnicities that inhabit or have inhabited the region, etc. This is because we want to prevent the sort of confusion that readers may experience when dealing with alternate names, especially in historical contexts. It has nothing to do with politics. -- ran (talk) 23:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm really tired of wasting our time to deal with those "nationalist" idiots, aka inferiority complex syndrome patients. Dalian had never been a Chinese city before 1945, and before late 1800s there was no Dalian at all - there was only a fishing village. Even this small village was not Chinese - it was part of Manchurian Qing Empire. Then it was leased to Russian and Japanese till 1945 when the Soviets kicked out Japanese and occupied the city.--Manchurian Tiger 02:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It is so pathetic of you to flatter Russian and Japanese while deriding Chinese. The existence of Dalian and relevant names are all listed in the above. Zhang Qiang 15:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Please tell us, why do you want so badly to think listing Russian and Japanese names to reflect a city's true history is to "flatter" Russians/Japanese and "deriding" you? --Manchurian Tiger 16:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is about how we should list the Russian and Japanese names, not whether ancient settlements in the area before Russian colonization should be considered to "be" Dalian. Whether such a "sameness" exists is a matter of semantics and nationalist sentiment anyways. Please get back on topic.

Also: Zhang Qiang, Wikipedia is not a place for you to spew racist BS. -- ran (talk) 18:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I go away for a few weeks and look what happens. What is going on here? Zhang Qiang this is not the place to distort history. It is the place to report history and let the user make their own judgments. Also it is not up to you to decide what should be deleted and what should stay. If you have context to add, please do but do not try ti insert your editorial opinions whether by inclusions or by deletions. As you probably know, many cities around the world suffered from foreign invasions and had their names changed either temporarily or permanently by the invading force. That does not mean that the historical name should be omitted from a history of the place.--California Tiger 17 November 2006

Cultural Life
The annual Dalian Beer Festival should deserve some mention Hanfresco 10:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

History section of the article
I found this sentence to be too long and confusing. Could someone rewrite it?
 * "Consequently, some historians blame the fall of Port Arthur, a world shaking event of epic proportions, during the siege of Port Arthur on January 2, 1905 for the failure by Admiral Eugene Alexeieff, to concentrate on the naval base and its fortifications, instead spliting precious resources shipped 5,000 miles across the single tracked Trans-Siberian Railway and Manchurian railways."

—Tokek 14:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

About 50% More Information Added
Hi, All. As Wikipedia can now be accessed from China, as of August, 2007, I have recently added about 50 percent more infomation in this page, mainly in the Economics and Education sections. I didn't do much about the History section, but added some sub-titles because it is long. I hope someone would do some more editing on my use of English. I have lived in Dalian, China, for six years. Yoshi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yoshi Canopus (talk • contribs) 01:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Sister cities of Dalian
Hi. Rostock in Germany is a sister city of Dalian. But it is not in Texas. Needs to get changed.--91.38.82.169 (talk) 11:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Most livable city?
Is that type of thing allowed in an article like this? I can't think of any way that the 'livable' quality of a city can be measured, so who is to say that another city is not more 'livable'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.109.131.1 (talk) 23:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, made that comment while not logged in, just putting note here to get emailed responses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daemonax (talk • contribs) 23:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Obviously "most livable city" is an awkward translation of the Chinese term "最适合居住的城市". I think that "most desirable city for living" might be better. --GnuDoyng (talk) 11:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Seems article has been updated from what I can remember, it now says "Dalian was rated No 1 of the most livable city in China in 2006 according to China Daily." Which is more sensible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daemonax (talk • contribs) 23:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment on edits in the History/Ancient section
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dalian&action=history/index.php?title=Dalian&action=historysubmit&diff=441331846&oldid=441321317

This edit seems to get pushed over and over by the author, three times now. It implies a "correlation" of info describing some rocks with 17,000 years (number seems to been pulled out of thin air) history of the city Dalian. Also the city/area being inhabited for 6,000 years seems to contradict the 2nd source by several thousand years and seems like free interpretation of references. If the person or someone else can reason why this should stay...otherwise it should be removed. Cold Season (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

POV concerns
this articles seems to much as an advertorial on how good it is for business. LibStar (talk) 08:39, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you offer no specifics, I (esp. since I am on vacation) cannot take you seriously. all I see that is problematic is a few sentences in the economy section, so there is really no need to have that ugly tag, a byproduct of your drive-by tagging, at the top of the page. The other statements regarding the environment and quality of life are well-sourced, so do not complain about that. — Xiaoyu: 聊天 (T)  和  贡献 (C)  04:39, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * the economy section is fully of advertorial talk of how so many businesses have set up there and quite lacking in sources. please do not WP:OWN this article. LibStar (talk) 04:42, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * there is also an issue of WP:UNDUE presentation of the glowing editorial of Dalian's economy. surely there is evidence of negative effects of this growth. a balanced WP:NPOV presentation is required. LibStar (talk) 04:53, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Really, when such an industrial city has managed to maintain high livability and environmental ratings? Also, I don't know what the devil you are smoking about ("OWN this article")...the only set of articles that I consider to truly own are lists. If I may have appeared to have been "owning", that was because until early this morning (UTC−4:00), you were doing nothing but dropping tags and it seemed all criticism was bouncing off you. — Xiaoyu: 聊天 (T)  和  贡献 (C)  14:22, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * please focus on content. "high livability and environmental ratings". that's questionable too. why are 10000 people protestingthen if it's so good LibStar (talk) 06:41, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * or Dailan having China's largest reported oil spill. these events were only included briefly in this glowing article. LibStar (talk) 07:08, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

or this is a classic People in Dalian have a lot of complaints about deterioration of quality of life and environment. LibStar (talk) 07:13, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Air Pollution is becoming the new killer in the city of Dalian! oh dear. LibStar (talk) 08:17, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You think I am not aware of any of this? In your speedy search you have even missed the chemical plant story (the greatest environmental event of the year) and in your haste you have also sought to create WP:UNDUE attention on the developments of only a few years.
 * And do not falsely state that I am not focusing on content, when "high livability and environmental ratings" have both been cited. — Xiaoyu: 聊天 (T)  和  贡献 (C)  13:37, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * worst oil spill in recorded Chinese history that even Chinese leaders commented on is not undue. The environmental problems, traffic and air and water pollution have all worsened in recent years. The article when I first came across it did hardly mention this. There is a cost to this rapid economic growth. High livability? Not on the basis of multiple independent and international sources I found with many residents complaining. You just want to paint a picture that everything is great in this city hence my POV tag. This is not state media. LibStar (talk) 13:49, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * A hogwash claim that I only wish to echo state media, which is in effect a severe personal attack characterising all mainland Chinese as lapdogs of "The State". I am not attempting to cover up any of the two major events (Jul 2010 and Aug 2011), and all I ask is that you provide more evidence than the paltry amount you have given so far.
 * Yes, it is clearly undue in the history section to have gaping holes in modern history and then suddenly a bombardment on the events of just this past year. However, note this has been moved.
 * High livability is established by surveys which you can search for yourself. — Xiaoyu: 聊天 (T)  和  贡献 (C)  14:23, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

yep high livability "United States National Academy of Engineering have raised concern about rising traffic in Dalian stating that "rapid growth of traffic in Dalian and in similar Chinese cities will repeat the air quality and energy consumption mistakes of Los Angeles and other U.S. cities, if not better managed." LibStar (talk) 01:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation
My Chinese and IPA are both rather rusty, but I'm pretty sure the first phoneme of Dalian is closer to /d/ than /t/. Solri (talk) 06:37, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

 * Chinese "D" is usually an unaspirated voiceless stop. English "D" is an unaspirated voiced stop; while "T" is an aspirated voiceless stop. Take your pick as to which you think is closer. Personally I think the aspirated voiceless stop is closer because the aspiration of a phoneme is usually less noticeable than the voicing (which is why I prefer Wades Giles transliteration to Pinyin). Fig (talk) 17:25, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

About time...
To remove the POV tag. Most of the problematic statements are un-cited to begin with, so is more appropriate. I will go ahead and change this, lest someone interjects...  The Tartanator   17:04, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Strange numbers in the demographic section
The demographics sections starts out great but quickly runs into trouble with numbers like "58337 thousand". If I were to re-write that using the common English-language conventions it might read "58.3 million" with a little rounding. I assume however that this is simply not the correct number. Can someone find a better source to rewrite the Demographics section to comply with both the facts and the English language? - Metal lunchbox (talk) 07:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

article name at ZH wiki
Our sister page has the Simplified Chinese name as followed by the character for City or Town: 市

cf: http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A7%E8%BF%9E%E5%B8%82

It may seem a small thing, but the traditional symbol was so easy to read, but combined with Dai and 市 the triple looks so easy to read.

Note that the JA wiki article has 大連市 as well.

I propose changing the intro to have the name appear on the page as in the ZH web page and the traditional as in the JA web page.

Note that both the JA and ZH wiki pages have 市 as the last character in the URL path for each page and in the page title in bold.

One recurring oddity on the ZH sidepanel, the Nihon-go link is after I and before K as if it started with "J". That is not how the Russian link is positioned in that list. Note that our list has

Nederlands 日本語

I was thinking back to 1919 and the problems faced by the representatives of 日本の国 at the Paris conference and their one humane demand that European diplomats would not concede.

I have noticed this oddity at another national language wiki. Is there a policy ? The name starts with the mora or syllable "ni" and not "ja".

One scrolls to read the sister page, but it is not there ... Oops, it is - just up in the top half of the list. Of course consistency can be a hobgoblin ...

G. Robert Shiplett 13:16, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That "市" is included in the title of every officially designated city in the PRC and Taiwan is actually a policy at ZH wiki ( I don't know the policy's name, and I have more important things to do than look it up ). I recommend against including "市" in the first sentence, because otherwise the lede may well have to open with "Dalian City" instead (to match with the "市"), which is not so natural. Note that the official name (大连市) IS in the infobox, and that most other articles here on EN-Wiki do not use "市" in the first sentence. GotR Talk 02:57, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Jinshitan National Geopark
I have removed the gallery of Jinshitan National Geopark form the article. It gives undue weight to one location. There needs to be some rational given to why this location deserves so many pictures while not having any description in the article. Rather is seems like an attempt to WP:COATRACK Jinshitan onto the Dalian article. There are generally too many photographs already in that section of the article. Please see WP:IG, "The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject." and, "However, Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the above paragraph or moved to Wikimedia Commons." Rincewind42 (talk) 02:14, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 12:42, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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 * Xinghai Square at night.jpg

Dalian "railroad" and Flash
I can't verify which "Dalian railroad" that was shut down by the sunsetting of Flash, as reported here:

Apple Daily VI Interesting Engineering Jalopnik

Can anyone confirm if this article is appropriate or where else this news should be inserted? Thanks CapnZapp (talk) 19:00, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * X-posted: Talk:Trams in Dalian, Talk:Dalian Metro CapnZapp (talk) 19:01, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

New Environment sections and my thoughts on improving
Hello all! I believe this article could be improved in a couple of ways: KhiVoh (talk) 19:48, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) The article for Shanghai, which is flagged as a 'Good' article, contains an 'Environment' section. Dalian is know for it's parks, wildlife, and marine environment. I believe a similar section would fit the Dalian article. I have therefore added an Environment section. I have moved the already-existing 'Environmental issues' section under this new section. The environment could be expanded to include several different sections: Parks, wildlife, pollution, etc.
 * 2) I see the Dalian article lists many tourist spots. Since Dalian is so tourist-focused and friendly, I think what would serve this article is creating a 'Tourist Attraction in Dalian' list. Shanghai ALSO has such a list. I have found many tourist attractions for Dalian that have their own Wikipedia page. Many of these are not listed currently. Therefore, I think we could remove some of the tourist locations from the main page and put it into a list. This would clean up the article, save space, and not make it so 'list-heavy'.
 * 3) Lastly, and this is related to the list above, I think we should add a 'Parks and resorts' section under the new 'Environment' section. I think a parks section is needed because of the city's heavy focus on its green space.

title: Talk:Dalian


text:
Talk:Time Out of Joint

Untitled
"In the end he heroically decides to embrace the delusion for the sake of humanity."

innacurate

Truman it is not.
You see, this is why this "allusions" section is dumb. People take one coincidental feature, and try to justify a connection. You might as well say that Pearl Harbor alludes to Homer's Odyssey because they both feature boats.

Secondly, the Truman Show's plotline was lifted from a rash of reality television programs, not a book most hollywood types have never heard of.

Third, if a prefabricated world is all it takes to be mentioned in this section then we should also add The Real World, The Surreal Life, Scare Tactics, and even an episode of South Park (believe it or not). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.102.241.40 (talk) 02:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

This is what annoys me about wikipedia: Nitpicking people. The similarities are so obvious between the novel and the movie and yet you just delete it? And believe me: More Hollywood types have read the novel than you think. Truman lives in a world made to appear real to keep him docile and under surveillance. In the novel, Ragle Gumm is being watched and kept docile in a fake small town until one day he escapes from it, just like Truman. And yet you do not see the similarities? Give me a break! Sliponshoe

 * Nevertheless, the claims made in this section are unverifiable. Without quotations from the authors, we do not know from where they drew their inspiration.
 * If this section was made just to list incidental similarities between unrelated works (regardless of the authors' intentions), then it breaks like, a hundred wiki rules, including Original Research and Verifiability. Further, the information is trivial (you yourself said it was "obvious") and not suitable for an encyclopedia.  The claims in the section are also arguable.
 * So, I'm going to delete the whole section. kthxbai ^_^
 * 139.102.239.12 00:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

 * No, wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is not meant to be a means of listing every perceivable subjective trivial similarity between every subject. Kegon (talk) 10:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Marilyn Monroe
Why is she an anachronism in 1959? That was the year (according to the monroe article) that she made "Some like it hot"! NOT knowing who she is is the anachronism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.216.146.105 (talk) 19:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Right, it's the opposite of an anachronism. It's irony because we know something the characters don't. I changed the paragraph, and also expanded the plot section. Sluggoster (talk) 20:04, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Proof of the Truman Show connection
I removed the bit in the lead section talking about the connection to the Truman show. This isn't a matter of opinion. It is forbidden per Wikipedia policy to make 'your own' analysis. You don't get to say that one inspired the other unless a reliable source says that (An interview with the director, and so on). You don't get to say that the themes are similar. Again, that's your own analysis of the themes in the two works. "But it's obvious!" you say. Doesn't matter. We don't write our own analysis, no matter how obvious it is and how many people agree that it's obvious. You only get to reprint the opinions of others

"But lots of articles do this!" you say. That's right. And every one of those articles, no matter how many hundreds of thousands it may be, is wrong. That's the dirty secret of Wikipedia: A substantial amount of its content is really poor quality, even by its own standards!. We help improve and clean up all this garbage content, all this content that is an embarrassment to a serious encyclopedia, by removing it, and demanding sources.

tl;dr - Anything at all related to the Truman Show must go until reliable sources are found which make the case for these comparisons. Reliable sources do not include some Joe Blow's blog and his musings on how the two seem similar, by the way

The relevant policy:

WP:Original Research

Read it, read it good. Make sure you really understand it. A great number of articles are full of "original research" and need to be chopped up, one by one — TheBilly(Talk) 15:51, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Was this ever a movie?
I remember seeing a movie when I was a kid during the 80's. This movie was about a entire town that thought they were living in 1950's America but in fact were living in 1980's Russia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.83.75.110 (talk) 21:52, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You are right that The Experts was a movie; it was absolutely awful, and had nothing to do with this novel. Idontcareanymore (talk) 18:13, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Precious Artifact
To chime in on the whole "has the same premise as story X" business: Of course many P.K.Dick stories deal with the protagonists immersed in some kind of artificial or imagined reality, but what comes to my mind specifically is the short story Precious Artifact: It is about a man who comes to realize that his familiar surroundings are somehow fake, and he is finally told that he is the only human left alive by the aliens after they have conquered Earth. The similarity is, that the main character is kept in an artificially upheld environment, where he is expected to just continue living his normal life. This is in contrast to most PKD stories, where the "alternate" environment is something extremely special. I'd have to reread it, to be more precise. Also I'd have to look up when it was written. PKD often reused ideas from short stories for later novels, so there actually might be some relevance here. --BjKa (talk) 11:26, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Time Out of Joint