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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting/Guidelines

Stub sorting guidelines
I sincerely believe that we really need to lay down the law in stub sorting, and really provide a guideline. I believe that we should all attempt to reach a general consensus by April 2, 2005 in a set of rules that we can follow. Once we have built a set of guidelines, we can formally create a policy out of those guidelines. We need to define what a specialized topic stub is, how many articles it should cover, when is it appropriate to create it, what defines its need for its creation, what defines its need for deletion, what criteria it should follow, what are the general steps should one take when sorting a stub, whether or not to start using subst: for all templates, whether or not use subst: for all templates created by the meta-templates, and any other matters that may come up in consideration. I thank jag123 for initially creating the subpage for the project at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Stub sorting/Guidelines. Even though they have been discussed, I feel that we really need to confirm everything. For that, we should discuss each issue with its own sections, and raise a list of issues that we need to nail down before really continuing on. The English Wikipedia is nearly at 500k articles. Either the MediaWiki software needs to handle stubs such that they can be found with a simple union of categories, or the sorting is done manually by Wikipedians. Personally, I think the latter is less taxing on the server load, especially when we use subst:, which I think would help the Wikipedia out, performance wise. Please make your comments at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Stub sorting/Guidelines. I apologize for making this somewhat of a spam notice, but since the project has more members, the project can finally decide on these important issues at hand. -- AllyUnion (talk) 23:22, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Creation of stub categories
In an attempt to start the ball rolling on this, these are the questions I ask myself before deciding on (or suggesting) a new stub category:
 * 1) will the creating of this category help Wikipedians to find the articles (are the current stubs so buried in a host of other stubs that hunting for them is difficult)?
 * 2) does the new category cover ground not covered by other categories, or does it at least create a reasonable subcategory of an area already covered?
 * 3) will there be a significant number of stubs in this category (preferably at least 40)?
 * 4) does the new category conform with existing stub hierarchies?
 * 5) will the creation of this category help to reduce the size of any current stub categories that have a large number of stubs(*)? (* here I use an arbitrary rule of thumb - a reduction by between 10 and 50% for a category with over 200 stubs.)

Ideally an answer if yes to all five of these questions is needed for me to consider a new stub category to be an important addition to stub sorting. Grutness|hello? 23:43, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * These are good; my vote is for them to become the guidelines on creation of new stub categories. I'd like to add that the significant state stubs do fit in all of these categories (5 a little bit of a stretch: the creation of a few will do this, but not one), especially number 1, which is the purpose of the stub notice anyways. --YixilTesiphon 00:00, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * I must admit, I do often use 5% as the cutoff, and a lot of that's guesswork anyway. Perhaps that would be a fairer lower margin? Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]]

Those are good points. When you say Wikipedians, do you mean editors or readers? Stubs are designed for editors who wish to expand articles that are related. The guideline for categories is 100 - 1000 (preferably 500) articles. 100 is a bit steep, but it should be at least 60-70, if not more. In the same respect, creating a new category to reduce an existing one should be done if it meets the above criterias.

We should also establish, for the record, what are stubs. My definition, a way to flag and group articles for editors who wish to expand articles on a related subject. They should be used in cases where the article is obviously lacking important information, and not for articles that are not yet perfect. The length shouldn't be a factor at all; the focus should be the content.

Later this evening, if it's not done, I'll start organising and creating pages to clearly address every point that needs to be addressed. --jag123 00:03, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Good point, though defining a stub could be a tricky one! - by "Wikipedians" I meant editors, BTW. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]]

New topics
I've added some topics that should be discussed. I'm not really sure if we should set up a new page for every entry or if every point should be discussed on this talk page. I don't want to make this too bureaucratic or complicated that people won't be participate, but I'd like to keep it organised. I'm sure no one will agree on a definition of stub, but I'm sure we can all agree on some points of what should be or what isn't a stub. At the very least, that will narrow the definition. I'm not sure if you all want to vote on every point or just discuss the topic and take it from there. Suggestions would be appreciated. Feel free to add your definition/criterias under each point. --jag123 02:43, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Questioned stub categorizations for discussion
I don't want to pick on anyone (unduly draw attention to particular individuals, that is), but there are sometimes stub categorizations that I disagree with enough to serve as potential fodder for discussion. Perhaps others will point examples out for discussion as well.

 * Probiotic: this is stubbed to Category:Bacteria stubs, which is the distinguishing characteristic of probiotic foods. I'm wondering whether it would be better stubbed to Category:Food and drink stubs though, as the focus is on a type of dietary supplement.  So in this case it seems that it is a choice between emphasizing composition or use (bacterial and food, respectively). Courtland 04:42, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)
 * Antifungal drug: this is stubbed to Category:Fungi stubs and I'm thinking it would be better stubbed to Category:Medicine stubs. In this case, peculiar to therapeutics, it's a choice between emphasizing the target or the context (fungus vs. medicine). Courtland 04:58, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)

In cases like these, where several stubs could equally apply, I pick the one that is more in-line with the focus of the article (until more explicit criterias are established for stubs). In the first case, the emphasis appears to be on bacteria, not the food or medicinal aspect, so I'd leave it as is. For the second, since fungi is barely "relevant", I'd go for med. --jag123 05:24, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * It's tricky, I stubbed probiotic as bacteria, as I thought microbiologists such as myself would be more likely to contribute to the article. 12:25, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Lists are addressed in a policy input request below content of block below suppressed but present in the page
 * List_of_famous_discoveries

 * Bastinado and Chinese raping chair : both of these have gotten stubbed to Category:Weapon stubs. However, the first is a method of torture and the second began as a method of torture but is thought to have become a "marital aid", so to speak.  My thinking is that neither of these constitute weapons in the traditional sense and that there isn't a good category to stub either to at this time. Courtland 06:48, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)
 * the struckout item has been re-categorized Courtland 02:22, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)

subst considered harmful.
I'm seriously against the use of subst. (That is, the use of including some static markup instead of dynamically including the template text.) The pages can be cached. This is an unacceptable reduction in functionality and flexibility to pander to what's really a coding problem, a database problem, but not a content problem. The kludge is unnecessary. grendel|khan 04:54, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)
 * Hey maybe it won't matter after we get all that google hardware ;-), If editors have to type in a whole lot of text rather than  or  ect.. then people will be less likely to edit. If it works in the same way as ~ it will still clutter up the page. Onco p53 12:34, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * subst would work the same way as ~ . In addition to cluttering up the page, it also means that we can't change the stub text after we start using it without a lot of work. grendel|khan 19:17, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)

Range of article count
I propose that the minimum count of article needed to create a new stub / stub category be 75, with the expectation that the category will reach a minimum 100 article in the near future.

Any objections? If no objections are made regarding this proposal within 10 days, it will be added as a guideline for this project. --jag123 15:50, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * hm. Not sure about that. I think that there is no need for a hard-and-fast number. I used 40 as standard when splitting up geo-stubs, but there were definitely cases where logic demanded a new category when there were a handful less than that - as happened with BritOT-geo-stub, which got the last 32 otherwise unsubcategorised geo-stubs. Seventy-five would be a bit high for my tastes in any case. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 05:38, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the whole point is to pick a hard-and-fast number. I suggested 100 because it's listed here . The purpose is not to subcategorised every article in a "catch-all" category so it's empty, but to create new templates when necessary, such as when a category has hundreds of articles and a new template could split that up significantly. In my opinion, 32 stubs is not enough to create a new category, especially when UK-geo-stub would have been okay. The BritOT-geo stub is specific, and it was a logical grouping, but that reasoning could be applied anywhere really. If there's no specific number, then anyone can create new stub templates to logically group 30 articles and we'll end up with 10,000 categories to maintain. --jag123 23:34, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, with 20,000 stubs, it'd actually be nearer 800 - and that's if all categories had only 30 (most would have far more). I'm just saying we should use common sense to know when a category is needed rather than thinking "hmm...this would be a perfect stub category, but it's only got 95 articles, so I can't create it". I'm sure I've seen guidelines elsewhere which suggest 20 as the number, but that would be far too few IMHO.

 * To put it another way, the title of this page is "guidelines", not "rules" - may I suggest wording the suggestion as such - say, "Ideally, a stub template should not be created unless a considerable number of items (prefereably over x) will be stubbed with it." Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 00:41, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * My proposal doesn't explicitly state 100 articles, but 75 with the expectation that it will eventually reach 100. Besides, it's not like there is a stub nazi going around deleting templates that have 99 articles since it's not 100. If common sense was common, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The title says guidelines because you can't really make rules here. No one is obligated to respect our criterias when making a new stub template. What if someone rearrange a bunch of stubs into several seperate categories that contain a handful of articles. It's entirely possible that it would make sense but it might complicate things.
 * Another reason for the guidelines is somewhat of a foundation for AllyUnion's proposed policy. In it, there's a section on removing unapproved stubs and that bothers me because we can't agree on anything here. Who, then, decides what's unapproved or not? Admins who participate in the stub sorting project (like you)? Are we going to have to examine every stub and decide on a case-by-case basis? If that happens, then it's only a matter of time before someone starts screaming that there is bias, cabal, etc and lacking any agreed-upon "guidelines" that justify our decisions, it would not be a baseless accusation. That's not where I want to see things go.
 * I know guidelines are not rules, and no one is bound by them, but at least we can point to this discussion and say "This was discussed already and the Project, as a whole, agrees that we should move in that direction". Previous discussions and previously reached consensus carries a lot of weight, which is why I'd like to see proper guidelines made. I'm not making this stuff up to constrict or govern people of this project; I'm more worried about those who aren't participants and who may not have much "common sense". --jag123 02:04, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * well, okay - we're arguing for exactly the same thing then. Currently there already seem to be too much regulation, hence it already seems to be too much "bias, cabal, etc". Adding more strict guidelines will only increases that feeling. I simply think it's far more useful to have stubs created where there seems to be a valid, logical need, than to wait until it seems that there are 75 articles and an expectation that the number will reach 100. It's good to have guidelines to help us in our decisions, but to try to pin something down to pure numbers doesn't necessairily help to show where stub categories are needed and where they aren't. And I definitely think you're underestimating wikipedians if you don't think that common sense will win out. And as you implied yourself, those that don't have "common sense" will do what they want, whether it's part of the guidelines or not. So what you're in essence doing is adding further guidelines to those who have enough common sense to already be creating stubs logically. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 03:20, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Why are numbers important at all? The point of stub notices, which I never tire of saying, is to help people find and fix them. Thus we should categorize them based on what makes sense, not what works by some arbitrary number, especially a large one. --YixilTesiphon 03:37, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

Why are numbers important? To keep things reasonable. People can still read article names; there's no need to narrow everything in groups of 20-30 for people to find them. It seems like creating stub templates with pretty pictures and organising stubs has now transcended their actual purpose. 100 is not an arbitrary number Regarding regulations, what regulations? What can you do or not do because of regulations? The only thing we ask is that people in the project are kept in the loop regarding creation/deletion of stubs, in case someone is working on something else. It doesn't look like there will be a consensus here, on anything, so I'm done here. --jag123 04:50, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * The point of this page, surely, is to debate and find out what things there can be consensus on. In this case, maybe not - in other cases, yes there will be and is. Your input is important - including (especially?) in this case, and you have kicked off a number of big discussions.. We'll never come to realistic consensus without seeing all sides of an argument. I hope your "I'm done here" doesn't mean you won't take part further! Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 07:21, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What not to stub
I propose that lists, disambiguation pages (including pages that contain a list of definitions but not marked as disambiguation pages) and definitions of words, expression or slogans NOT be stubbed. Since these types of articles are expecteted to be incomplete (such as lists) or short (such as definitions) or lacking content (such as disambig pages), stubbing them is not necessary and redundant.

Any objections? If no objections are made regarding this proposal within 10 days, it will be added as a guideline for this project. --jag123 15:50, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * "definitions of words" ... these should be tagged for transwikification to Wiktionary (Template:Move to Wiktionary (placed on the article's discussion page, I think). Courtland 18:30, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)

 * Agree on disambiguation pages - these should not be stubbed. And agree with Courtland on definitions. But lists? Have a look at List_of_cities_by_longitude - you telling me that's not a stub? I think the same rules should apply to them as to articles in general - if there's clearly a shortage of items on the list, or if whole sections of information are clearly missing, then it's a stub. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 05:44, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * The List of cities by longitude is short, but at what point will you consider it not a stub? 50 cities? 100 cities? 10% complete? 75% complete? How will you even determine that? Do you know the amount of cities on the planet? Assuming the list contains 500 items, but mostly from one area, like the United States, then there is still a clear shortage of items. Either way, a city today could be amalgamated tomorrow, or seperated from a previous fusion (like in Montreal). A list like this will eternally be incomplete and contain some incorrect entries. If stubbed, it would have to be permanent, and that defeats the whole purpose of stubs. --jag123 16:32, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Why would an incomplete list be always a stub? The decision of when to remove the stub message would have to be arbitrary, that much is obvious, but there is an "incomplete list" template for those circumstances. There is no way that such a list could be completely canonical, but it could at least be comprehensive - common sense should prevail. A "list of cities" that contains only two cities is clearly a stub. One with 100 of the largest cities from around the planet would clearly not be a stub. One with 500 cities, all of them from the US, should be renamed "List of United States cities by longitude". Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 00:36, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * One way to look at it is whether a) items in the list are wiki-linked and b) those wiki-links are live. There have been a very small number of lists I've seen where most of the items are wiki-linked but those links are only placeholders (red) or that aren't wiki-linked at all.  I think I'd stub those list types; but a short list with all items linked to articles (or stubs), no ... that's an organizational assist and isn't deserving of "stubbiness". Courtland 00:42, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)
 * Here's a borderline case perhaps: List_of_Alaska_state_highways; here we have a pair of overlapping lists where 1/3-to-1/2 of the wiki-links lead no-where (red). I did some investigating and found support for a redirect from Route 98 to Klondike Highway and that level of work on all those red-links or removing them would drag the list out of its stubbiness ... in my opinion.  By the way - I didn't put the stub-notice; that was there when I found it. Courtland 01:43, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)

 * Like I said above, I don't believe in common sense or arbitrary decisions. What if someone decides to stub every single list? What you define as stub-worthy might differ from their definition, and since it's all arbitrary, anyone can do anything really. I suppose we could agree on a set of criteria for lists because I do see some usefulness in stubbing *some* lists, but I really don't care that much about lists to bother arguing over it. Expanding articles is totally different from expanding lists. If there's an incomplete list template, that should be used. --jag123 02:11, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * If... Is anyone likely to stub all lists, simply because they are incomplete? If they do (unlikely) simply remove the stub messages. It's quite clear that some incomplete lists are stubs and some aren't, and that there cannot be a single cut-off point at which you can say "lists below a set size are automatically stubs". As you pointed out further up, it's highly unlikely that anyone would know the number of cities in the world, so it's impossible to set a criterion in actual number or percentage terms as a cutoff. But it's equally clear that some lists are so far below an acceptable standard that they cannot not be considered stubs. The "Alaskan highways" list has loads of information - I don't know whether it's close to listing all of Alaska's highways, but it is a detailed list. The "Cities by longitude" list had two cities on it - that's not a case of "could do with some expansion" - it's a stub. Having said that, I'd agree that 99% of lists shouldn't be stubs. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 03:07, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I'll admit it - I was wrong. Every list I've seen cone through category:Stub has simply needed a listdev or similar. Lists probably shouldn't be stubs after all <:) Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 10:35, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

One thing that (IMO) should never be a stub (though I've noticed one or two creeping into Category:Stub) - a category. How can a category be a stub? I suppose it's analogous to the list situation, except that at least with additions to a list, they are in the form of edits, and it would be easy to notice that ther's a stub message there. With a category that wouldn't happen. Grutness|hello? 09:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Non-articles as stubs
Categories require

Lists may use any of Template_messages/Lists (However,,  and  should probably be merged, I'll submit them to WP:TFD asap.)

 * How about Disambiguation pages - unless they form part of an article on one of the items disambiguated? That is, a simple disambiguation list is not a stub (although it might conceivably get a listdev template or similar), but an article which is about one subject but adds at the bottom "this term also could refer to:" followed by a list is fair game. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 00:00, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * If I find a stub on a disambiguation page, I remove it. If I find a stub that is a non-templated disambiguation page, I remove the stub and add the disambiguation message.  If I find a stub on a list , I remove it; I generally do not add an expand-list type of message, but perhaps I should; that's a toughy because most lists are expandable, some (almost) infinitely so.  Courtland 01:17, 2005 Mar 18 (UTC)

Subst:stub
I propose that "subst:" not be used. There does not appear to be much support for it's use and other alternatives should and can be explored.

Any objections? If no objections are made regarding this proposal within 10 days, it will be added as a guideline for this project. --jag123 15:50, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * good move. All that substub does is break Category:Stub in two according to length of article - hardly the most useful criterion. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]]

Comment: I wonder if there is a misunderstanding here? What are we talking about: The "Substub" template or the method of substituting templates to static wikitext with  ? -- grm_wnr  Esc  14:54, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Oops - my bad. Please ignore my comments above (although the thread that developed from it does indicate that there is some antipathy to Template:substub as well!). I hope, for that reason, that Courtland and YixilTesiphon do not mind that I have split this section into two separate parts and moved their comments into the next section to reflect the two different topics! Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 07:31, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Use of substub
I propose that "subst:" not be used...jag123

(User:Grutness misread this as "I propose that "substub" not be used - the following thread resulted) Update: It seems, from inspection of the Category:Substubs for the last month, that few new substubs are being labelled as such - the category's population seems to be a stable 3000 or so. I am trying to work through at least ten a day, merging, vfd'ing or upgrading to stub subcategory wherever appropriate. See also note below at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Guidelines. Grutness|hello?  07:31, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * good move. All that substub does is break Category:Stub in two according to length of article - hardly the most useful criterion. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]]
 * Agree I've wondered why someone would use "subst:" when "stub:" seems to cover things all the way down to a handful of words. Will a bot be run to convert them, or will this be a manual re-categorization process? Courtland 04:00, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)
 * I don't know; though I do Agree to a certain extent in that subst just seems to be a more pathetic plea for expansion. --YixilTesiphon 23:00, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

Category criterion
A suggested addition to the "what is a stub" - irrespective of length, any article is a stub if it hasn't got at least one category (Ideally, a category should be found rather than a stub message added, but this isn't always possible). This ensures that all the articles are listed somewhere other than the complete list of articles, rather than "free-floating in cyberspace". This, technically, could come under "article missing important information", since its place in the category hierarchy is important information. Grutness|hello? 02:39, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Categories are cheap and easy to make and I'd seriously be surprised if there is a topic that doesn't already have related categoriess. I believe there is an uncategorised pages project (if not, there are definitely people who do this) which handles the task of categorising pages. If anyone finds an uncategorised page, I certainly encourage them to categorise it but I think stubs should be left for articles that are lacking content. --jag123 02:57, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Number of stub categories
If there are, in fact, 20,000 stub articles then interestingly enough if they are evenly divided into stub categories each with the minimum of 100 articles that would be 200 categories... Which happens to be the number of categories displayed at once at category:stub categories. What a coincicdence. RJFJR 03:50, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

Division of biography stubs?
Inspite of the fact that I'm a big proponent of merging stub categories I'd like to hear if there is interest in splitting bio-stubs into two categories: modern-bio-stub and historical-bio-stubs. It sounds like they'd be worked on by editors with different interest. I'd suggest that if we did then we could arbitrarily make 1900 the dividing line. People who's notable contributions were mainly before then would be in historical and if after that would be modern. Comments? RJFJR 03:50, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Judging by comments on stub sorting in general there seems to be more of a move to divide bio-stubs by profession and/or nationality. I agree that they need to be split up, and thie historical criterion is a viable one, but I think I'd prefer the other ways of splitting the stubs up. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 05:34, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Me too, I'd prefer other ways of sorting. There's some problem with picking an arbitrary dividing line as there are historical eras that are better categoricals for binning biographies.  For instance, rather than 1900 for the dividing line between "old" and "new", a fuzzier "Industrial Era" category for modern biographies might be better.  Further, one could go farther back along generally accepted era boundaries in the West and East, etc.  This provides and orthogonal and alternative axis for sorting to the profession/place-in-history categorization that is currently in place; I wouldn't say it replaces that pre-existing axis.  Courtland 00:26, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)

 * I prefer other ways of sorting. Dividing people by era seems unnatural. I think it's more likely that someone will have knowledge of scientists or army generals or authors who've lived in any century than someone with knowledge of all kinds of people who've lived in so-and-so time period. --jag123 00:36, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, it should be by profession or nationality. --YixilTesiphon 23:01, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

Beginner Mind
As a brand new user of Wikipedia,I would like to say that it is an amazingly wonderful and valuable thing you are all creating. I came here for information on English pronunciation, particularly phonology and I found a lot of useful stuff. I also found some valuable related info on a page noted as a "stub," which I followed to get a definition and later encountered this discussion. I have no technical expertise to offer, but in the debate on whether to kill stubs or not, it does not seem like a good idea since much valuable information might be lost. Would it be wishful thinking to hope for gathering this related info into a master document? Remember, I said I brought no technical expertise, but perhaps there is something in this beginner's perspective that can help you in this complex discussion. Keep up the good work! --Lamusette 19:41, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't worry - at least on this page the people are involved with sorting stubs rather than removing them - to make it easier for editors to find the articles and expand them. Wikipedians tend to have what are known as 'inclusionists' (who want to keep as many articles as possible) and 'deletionists' (who think that tiny articles are worthless and should be deleted). Thankfully there are enough inclusionists that most of the articles deleted have something majorly wrong with them (like vanity pages) or are so small as to have no information at all. Oh, and thanks for the compliments! Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 01:53, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Substubs
Not sure whether this belongs here or elsewhere(I'm going to cross-post it to Criteria as well for this reason), but this came up in discussion recently on tfd ater Template:PBS-substub was discovered. The suggestion was made (which I agree with) that substubs should not be subdivided in the same way as stubs.

Substubs seem to fall into four types: dicdefs that should be moved to Wikipedia, scraps of information which should be merged into larger articles, potential vfds that will never amount to anything, and potential articles which should be at the very least expanded into stubs. At some point, some effort from WP:WSS should probably go into sifting through Category:Substubs to work out which ones go where and doing something with them. Those that can be made into proper stubs, all well and good, they can them get changed into whatever subcategory of stub is appropriate. The rest should be dealt with according to their needs. Grutness|hello? 22:56, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Porn-stub and Bio-stub: sorting between these
I've started sorting Bio-stubs for porn actors/actresses into the Porn-stub rather than double-stubbing them to Porn- and Bio-stubs. What do you think about the merits of this decision? Would you do the same? Thanks for your input. Courtland 21:43, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)

Sounds fine. RJFJR 22:51, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm beginning to think that anything that reduces the size of Category People stubs is a good move. Go for it. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 00:41, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)


text:
Angham

Angham Mohamed Ali Suleiman (أنغام محمد على سليمان ; born 19 January 1972), known by the mononym Angham (أنغام), is an Egyptian singer, recording artist, and actress. Her debut was in 1987 under the guidance of her father, Mohammad Suleiman. Following her divorce from Magdy Aref in 2000, Angham took much more control over her image and musical style after that Leih Sebtaha (Why Did You Leave Her) record established her into a strong position amid the constant emerge of new voices in the Middle East music scene. After a highly publicized feud between Alam El Phan Music Records' president Mohsen Gaber and the artist, She moved to another record company, Rotana.

In 2005, She released the album Bahibbik Wahashteeny (I Love You, I Miss You). It was critically acclaimed, but commercially was not as expected. After three years, Angham returned to the forefront of Arabic pop music in 2007 with her album Kolma N'arrab (Whenever We Come Closer) which sold more than 500,000 CDs across the Middle East in less than three months and was awarded a platinum certification.

Childhood and youth
Angham was born in Alexandria, Egypt, the eldest child of Mohammad Suleiman, a former violinist, music composer, orchestra chief, and singer, while her mother, Mageda Abdel Haleem, is a well-known artist. She grew up in a Muslim family.

The family moved to Cairo by the late 1990s, and settled down at El Mohandiseen, an area known for being home to many many celebrities. Angham has three siblings. Her brother, Khaled, studied music arrangements. While her brother Ahmad, owing to his physical handicap, remained away from the spotlight.

Angham began singing at around the age of sixteen, under the guidance of her uncle, Emad Abdel Haleem. Angham performed for the first time in public during Cairo's Radio syndicate ceremony. She sang "el Gannah Taht Akdamek" (Paradise Is Under Your Feet), a song dedicated to mothers. She recalled how her father was not pleased with her performance.

Upon finishing high school, Angham joined Cairo's Conservatory of Music. She studied the basics of the music, improved her voice's capacities, and learned how to play on the traditional piano and Oud. However, Angham fell into a nervous breakdown when she received news about her uncle's death which happened on the same day of her first tour in Tunisia at the Carthage International Festival.

1987–1994: Debut with her father
Released in 1987, Fil Rokn elBaeed elHady (In The Far Distant Corner) is Angham's first breakaway record.

Her father introduced her to Sayed Naser, a businessman and record producer, who agreed on producing and financing her records and tracks. Angham was the first artist to join Sayed Naser Records company, and the youngest to be accepted. Due to her father's wide recognition in the music industry, famed composer Mohammed Abdel Wahab gave Angham the copyright of his track "Basbosa".

This record features a series of records that are mostly musically composed by Mohammad Suleiman. Angham's lyricist, Ezzat el Gendy, who was behind the success of "Sidi Wisalak" (Your Charm) in 2001, also saw his debut with Angham on the "La Yal Hob" (No Love) track. "Fil Rokn elBaeed el Hady" was a pivotal success.

The following year, Angham conceived Awal Gawab (The First Answer), her second record, as a homage to Egyptian soul music composer, Sayed Makkawy, and she worked with a variety of lyricists on the record. Sayed Makkawy gave her the copyrights of his song "Aalo Enseeh" ("They Said Forget Him") to add it to the record.

The Awal Gawab record was released soon after her debut record but was neither critically nor commercially as successful. "Awal Gawab" and "Hawa elMasayef" ("Summer Love") were her most successful tracks on this record. During 1988, although she occasionally performed live, stage fright prevented Angham from embarking on any major tours. Her first widely seen concert appearances were mainly at the Cairo Opera House, and she said she felt that her performance proved her vocal abilities were not, as some had previously speculated, simulated using studio techniques.

Four next records which were all produced by Sayed Naser Records except the last one which is produced by "Sawt elCahira" (Voice of Egypt) Records saw the light. They were a transitional phase of Angham in her adolescent years. Most of the tracks dealt with love, breakup, friendship, family and fun. These albums were titled as "LaLiLi Lali", "Layek", "Ettafakna" and "Bibassata Kida". The first two were released in the year 1989, the third in 1990 and the fourth in 1991. In 1992, she sang two songs composed by the Saudi composer, Mohammed Al-Senan, which are "Shayfak" (I See you) and "Ain El-Hawa" (The Eye of Love). The lyrics of both songs were written by Ezzat elGendy. They were produced by Alkhoyool in 1992, and they were reproduced by production label Rotana in 2002 among the famous collection musical record Mahrajan Nagham Watarab 2002 (Festival of Melodies and Oriental 2002). However, Angham's relationship with her father started to deteriorate when he discovered her intention of separating from him. He felt stress over the public's reprisal of his daughter's as a person and artist. Among the four records, it was the last one that had a phenomenal success. The latter featured the hit "Ya Tayeb" (Humble Person), which tackled the subject of humanity and stabilized Angham's position as a celebrity. In 1992, the feud between Angham and her father resulted in her working less with her father to conceive her seventh record, "Intal Alam" ("You Are The World") which was produced by "Sawt elCahira" ("Voice of Egypt") Records.

The 1993 record Ella Ana ("Except Me"), produced by Rocky Records, was the best record for Angham between 1987 and 1994. This fact was attributed to the critical and commercial success of such tracks as "Telephonak Kam" ("What's Your Number"), "Shantet Safar" ("Luggage") and "Ella Ana".

1995–2000: Search for expansion
After her separation from her father, Angham collaborated with music composer, Ameer Abdel Mageed. He worked subsequently on "Baollak Eih" (Tell You What) record in 1995 and musically composed all its tracks. The record was produced by Laser Records owned by Mustafa Dagher.

The track "Tekdar Aal Meshwar" ("Up for the Journey") was sung in 7.6 octave voice with a rich oriental music background. "Law Hasseit" which was filmed as a music video is the first track to contain quick Latin/Spanish beats, and perhaps helped Angham gain more popular in the young demographic. The sound engineering was taken care by Ameen Akef, Hussein Aahdy, and Omro Hashem, while the record was co-produced by Angham and Adel Othman Helal.

In 1996, under Laser Records' production, Angham's tenth record Akdar ("I Can") saw the light. It was entirely composed by Ameer Abdel Mageed. The record was released in a second copy featuring the unreleased track "el Amar" ("The Moon"). Angham stepped up to show that she can make it without father's guidance. International composer, Abdo Dagher, also worked with Ameer Abdel Mageed in the construction of the tracks' melodies.

Angham started to experiment recording in the Lebanese dialect, but could not master it. However, she rehearsed for the Gulf dialect and released "Shay Daa" ("Something Got Lost") in 1996, which was her first Gulf record, produced by Founoun el Jazeera Records. It was an instant hit in the Persian Gulf region, and led to her performing in Qatar, Kuwait, and UAE, and other places.

Angham returned to the spotlight with a very successful record Betheb Meen ("Who Do You Love") in 1997 with Rotana, where she worked once again with her father, but on only two songs. Upon its release, Angham silenced all rumors about her relationship with father, indicating that even though they had separated on the professional level, the link of father and daughter remained intact.

Due to her first Gulf record's success, Angham embraced a second experience at the same level. "Khalli Bokra L'Bokra" (Keep Tomorrow For the Future) record released in 1998 and produced by Stars Records company was even more successful than the first one. The record contained hits like "Haybet Malek" ("Pride of a King"), "Ma Had Fady" ("No One Cares"), "Eedna Mbarak" ("Happy Anniversary"), and "Ghareeb" ("Strange"). In this record, the music of the tracks were mainly composed by Tarek Mohammad, Khaled elSheikh, and Talal Medah. "Ghareeb" track is only available in its complete version on the CD. The record Wahadaniya ("Lonely Woman"), released in 1999, produced by Sawt elCahira Records, which took back Angham under its wings after knowing her popularity grew more intense. All the tracks in this records were hits, but the most successful ones were "Bet'hebbaha Walla" ("Do You Love Her Or What"), "Baatly Nazra" ("Send Me A Glance") and "elAlak Had" ("Find Someone").

For the first time before they wed in 2004, Angham worked with Fahd, who co-arranged "Wahadaniya" (Lonely Woman) track alongside Mika. Though the song did not receive much acclaim, Angham received "Best Female Artist" in 2000 for it. Her music video "Bethebbaha Walla" received "Best Music Video" in 1999.

2001–2003: New image, independence and liberalism
Angham and Magdy Aref separated in 2000. She said she felt trapped by her relationship with Magdy, whom she often described as controlling. Soon after the separation, Angham hired an independent publicist and a new attorney and manager.

Angham's next album, 'Leih Sebtaha' (Why Did You Leave Her) which was produced by Alam El Phan Records company and released in 2001, yielded the number-one single "Sidi Wisalak" ("Your Charm"), the lyrics and music video for which presented a more overtly feminine and sensual image of her that had been previously seen. She stated that Leih Sebtaha defined the point that she attained full creative control over her music, which continued to move in a steady direction with material mostly written and composed by Bahaa elDeen Mohammad and Sheriff tagg respectively. However, she added: "I never thought it's that much of a departure from what I've done in the past. It's not like I went crazy and thought I was going to be the artist I am now. Personally, this album is about doing whatever I dreamt to do".

"Sidi Wisalak", co-written by Angham and her lifetime friend, Ezzat elGendy, was a commercial success. Both "Sidi Wisalak" and "Magabsh Serty" ("Did He Mention Me") tracks boosted the sales and gave her the title of the best selling living Egyptian female artist. "Magabsh Serty" is the last song that Riyad elHamshari composed for Angham.

That same year, she appeared on 3 Sharee elNoujoum (3 Stars Avenue), a televised programme. She was honored officially as "Egypt's Number 1 Female Artist" in 2001. By the following year, she had entered a relationship with music arranger, Fahd.

Omry Maak ("My Life With You"), Angham's sixteenth studio album, was released in 2003 and produced by the same record company as its precedent. It comprised more R&B, Rock 'n' Roll and ballad songs, many of them arranged by Fahd. "Omry Maak" and "Arrefha Beya" ("Introduce Me To Her") tracks reached number one in the Middle East, in a time where the industry witnessed the release of unsuccessful records from fellow Arabic artists. Media reception of "Omry Maak" was in majority enthusiastic, with the Riyad Newspaper saying the album is like "a state of euphoric love between the loss of human senses and the phenomena of passion in its ultimate summit".

Omry Maak was Angham's third best selling record in her career. She accused Alam El Phan of under-promoting the record: "The current situation that I am living in my professional career is not positive. I'm getting a lot of negative feedback from certain corporate people. I wanted to be free from Alam El Phan", she replied upon the news of her separation from Alam El Phan, adding that the owner of her company refused to let her film Arrefha Beya as her second music video. There were many promises that he did not accomplish. In 2004, Angham released "Khaleeny Maak" ("Keep Me With You") single on St Valentine's Day. It was broadcast on the radio and later on released on the Internet. The track features Fahd's first singing attempt alongside the artist.

2004–2006: Personal and professional struggles
Angham's popularity declined with the release of Bahibbik Wahashteeny ("I Love You, I Miss You") record in July 2005. After "بتحب مين" (Who Do You Love), Angham returned to another collaboration with Rotana to produce and promote the 2005 record. She officially joined the record label in March 2004. Angham's new marriage to Fahd topped with her constant exhaustion, second pregnancy and an operation for a kidney stone prior to giving birth made it impossible for the artist to focus on the record. The lead track, "Bahibbik Wahashteeny", got good reviews, and its music video, directed by Hady elBajoury, was filmed in September 2005. In the video, Angham displayed her real pregnancy in the clip while her ex-husband appeared on the clip too briefly at the end. However, due to late production and release of the music video, the audience was unaware of the record's release in the market. Angham tried to boost the sales of the record by filming "بحب نفسي" ("I Love Myself") track as her second music video, but it brought a moderate boost to the overall sales. She began a long series of tours to help promote the record. Two days after the release of the record, she performed a successful concert in Tunisia at the Carthage International Concert alongside artist Ramy Ayash. She participated in the fourth season of Star Academy, appeared on the Maa Hobby (With Love) and "خليك بالبيت"(Stay Home) talk show ], and "Saat Samee" ("An Hour of Hearing") on Noujoum FM radio.

Angham performed at "هلا فبراير" ("Welcome February") concert at Kuwait, alongside artist Saber elRibai, Khaled Slim and Hamoud elNaser. Angham then won "صوت الحب" ("Voice Of Love") Award in 2006 at the Alexandria National Music Festival in its fourth round. Despite the promotion, the record became the artist's commercially least successful record in her career.

2007–2008: Return to stardom
Angham's eighteenth studio album, Kolma N'arrab (Whenever We Come Closer), was released in 2007 and contained contributions from music composers such as Khaled Ezz, Tamer Ali, Ramy Gamal, Baleegh Hamdy and Sheriff Tagg. After criticisms that Angham is over-using her ex-husband to rearrange the tracks in "Omry Maak" and "Bahibbik Wahashteeny" ("I Love You, I Miss You") records, Angham collaborated with a variety of music arrangers. They include: Fahd, Tarek Madkour, Walid Fayad, Ashraf Mahrous, Tamim and Essam elSharayty. The record features a remake of "Ashky Lmeen" (Who Can I Complain To) as a tribute to Mohamed Mounir. Angham is the first female artist to include a remake in her record for a living artist. Kolma N'arrab became the best-selling record for a female artist in the Middle East in 2007. A reviewer for Almotamar (The Conference) concluded that Angham is the best-selling female artist during summer 2007, beating sales of Lebanese artists Nancy Ajram and Najwa Karam. The record earned Angham a platinum certification. Her music video, which cost US$500,000. and was directed by Ahmad elMahdy, peaked on rank one at Rotana Top 20 chart on 25 August 2007. "Dah Elly Indi Track" peaked at rank two at Radio Orient chart in France, while "Kolma N'arrab" track peaked on rank one on 6 August 2007, at "Eftekasat Top 10 Songs of the Week" chart. Angham won Best Egyptian Female Artist award in 2007 officially given to her by the Nile Entertainment channel.

Angham began a series of televised appearances to promote her record. She appeared on X-Factor at Rotana, "Nejm elNoujoum" (Star of the Stars) in Kuwait, Studio 2M in Morocco and "Maa Hobbi" ("With Love") in Lebanon. She debuted her first tour with a successful performance in Cairo at the "Layali elTelevision" (Nights of the Television) concert on 14 July 2007, which took part at the Chinese Garden, amid a young demographic which surpassed 3000 in number. Kolma N'arrab has been nominated for Best Selling Record at the World Music Award 2007 alongside Amr Diab and Nancy Ajram.

On 3 February 2008, she appeared for the second time on Taratata to honour Egyptian artist, Mohammad Mounir, alongside artists Zein elOmar, Hussein and Houda Haddad. She took part with Syrian singer Asala in the first live airing of "elArrab" (The Mentor) show in its first cycle, hosted by Nichan Deirharotonian. The artist recorded an episode for "Inta Meen" ("Who Are You") programme, hosted by Nadine Fallah on Abou Dhabi Channel. Angham was invited to the "10th Hour" show on Dream channel on the second January 2008.

According to Elaph E-newspaper, Angham will continue her tour and her third concert around the Middle East is due to take place at the Doha's 9th Music Festival, where she will be closing the event alongside Gulf legend artist Mohammad Abdo on 29 January 2008. The concert was a phenomenal success and tabloids acclaimed Angham for her appearance. Angham's second single from the 2005 record, "Mabataallemsh" (Never Learning), was filmed as a music video under the directing of Ahmed elMahdy. The music video peaked number 1 in Rotana for three consecutive weeks, and ranked number 2 in Nadine, a Lebanese magazine.

2009: Nefsy Ahebak
For two years, Angham had been working on her nineteenth studio record. The album contains contributions from lyricists Amir Teaima, Bahaa elDin Mohammed, and Mohammad Atef, composers Khaled Ezz, Mohammed Nadi, Tarek Madkour, Walid Saad, Ammar elShareei, and Mohammed Yahiya, arrangists Nader Hamdi, Issam Shrayti, Hassan elShafiei as a substitute of Fahd, and Khaled Ezz. In an interview in Kelmet elFassel (Last Word), she revealed that she would be singing for the first time a Lebanese song written by Catherine Moawwad and composed by Salim Assaf.

According to FilFan, the tracks' names are the following:
 * "Yah, Law Ayeesh Maak" (I Wish I can Live With You)
 * "Habibi Malak" (Darling, what is up)
 * "Nefsi Ahebak" (I wish I love you)
 * "Saat Keteer" (Many times)
 * "Delwa'ty Ahsan" (Now, I am better)
 * "Mahzouma" (Defeated)
 * "Fi Wahda Bethebak" (Some girl loves you)
 * "Esht Sneen" (For Years I've Lived)
 * "Law Nsarah Baad" (If We Were Honest to Each Others)
 * "Day Einak" (The sparkle of your eye)
 * "Mosh Fi Balak" (Not In Your Mind)
 * "Helwa" (Beautiful)

The album was released on 25 June 2009. For the album, Angham recorded "Mahzouma" (Defeated) in Prague with the Philharmonic Orchestra of Prague under the direction of Issam Shrayti, for a cost of $50,000 US, becoming the first female artist to have the most expensive song in the Middle East. As for the music video, Angham's choice of directors was restricted down to either Lebanese director, Nadine Labaki, or Egyptian movie director, Khaled Merghi, who collaborated with her previously in 1999 with the video for "Bethebbaha Walla" (Do You Love Her Or What).

The album was well received by critics and fans.

Angham shot the video clip "Saat Keteer" under the direction of Randa Alam.

Acting career
Angham began to take professional acting lessons in 2000. She made her debut as an actress in the romantic comedy Leila Men Alf Leila (Night of a Thousand Nights) starring prominent actor Yehia elFakharany, actor/artist Ali elHajjar, Sleem Sahab band, and the Cairo Opera House ballet. It was produced by the Cairo Opera House in Egypt. Angham's first acting project was huge, but did not continue for more than two months, and was not aired on television.

Angham's second acting experience was with Ali elHajjar again in the theatrical drama Rossassa fil Alb (Bullet Right in the Heart). The plot was written by Toufic Hakeem and was originally intended for theatre before it was transformed in the 1940s into a movie which starred actor/artist Mohammed Abdel Wahab and actress Rakiya Ibrahim. Angham loved both experiences, but said to Middle East Newspaper:

I benefited from these two experiences a lot, but standing on the stage is a very tiring job, which forces the artist to leave lots of other things including his personal and professional life as a singer to be able to fully focus on it. This was the sole point that I did not like in the acting experience.

Rossassa fil Alb is Angham's most successful acting experience, and many movie offers came later for her. However, she did not accept them because she wanted to focus on her singing career. Among the offers she refused were Sahar elLayali (Sleepless Nights) which was nominated for Best Foreign Movie at the Academy Awards in 2003, in which the singer was supposed to act instead of actress Mona Zaki, Shiqet Maser elJadida (Heliopolis Apartment), Aan elAshk Wel Hawa (About Love and Passion) elShoumouaa elSawdaa (Black Candles) where she was supposedly to remake the acting part of legend actress/artist Najat elSagheera, and Hayat Thekra (Life of Thekra) where Angham was supposedly to remake the life of assassinated Tunisian singer, Thekra.

Personal life
On the talk show Maa Hobby (With Love) in 2005, host Joumana Bou Eid asked Angham how she felt toward her dad after eight years of collaboration in making records. Angham replied that she owes him many things, and that she is lucky he is her father and an important figure in the music industry. The publicity of Angham's separation from her father whether on a personal or artistic level stabilized Angham's independent entrance into the industry of music.

Months before the release of Bet'heb Meen (Who Do You Love) in 1999, Angham married Magdy Aref, an Egyptian businessman and music video director, with whom she had a son named Omar. Angham's father was strongly against his daughter's choice of husband, but the artist married Magdy without her father's approval. In 2000, their divorce caused a riot in the press who criticized Angham's lack of experience in managing to keep her records unaffected by her private life. Angham remained single for four years before she met music arrangist Fahd, with whom she became romantically involved during the making of her 2003 record Omry Maak. In April 2004, they were married in an extravagant ceremony on "The Place" yacht in 2004.

Among the invitees present at the wedding were artists Elissa, Sherine, Mohamed Hamaki, Khaled Agag, Sheriff Makkawy, and Ehab Toufic. Rotana Records company's president, Salem el Hindy, and his spokesperson, Tony Semaan, attended the wedding. Angham's father and son, Omar, chose not to attend her wedding. In December 2005, Angham gave birth to a son Abdel Rahman. The marriage did not last long, and Angham divorced Fahd in June 2008.

Voice
Angham has said that from childhood she was influenced by Arabic classics and soul musicians such as Mohammed Abdel Wahab, Fairuz and Umm Kulthum. Her music contains strong influences of gospel urban contemporary music, Arabic classics, R&B, waltz and lately reggaeton. Angham is said to be able to cover all the notes from alto vocal range to six-octave vocal range.

In her early years, she attempted to emulate Fairuz's simple notes, to ensure an efficient way of communication emotions. In Maa Hobby (With Love) talk show, Angham said that "singing in a low voice is far much more difficult than screaming in high pitch notes. There are not so many artists today that are capable of doing so." Angham's vocal trademark is her ability to sing in the whistle register and to transfer true emotions through her songs.

Studio albums

 * 1987: Fil Rokn elBaeed elHady (In The Far Distant Corner)
 * 1988: Awal Gawab (First Letter)
 * 1989: Lalili Lali
 * 1989: Layeg (It Suits)
 * 1989: Shokran (Thank You)
 * 1990: Ettafakna (We Agreed)
 * 1991: Bibasata Kida (As Simple As That)
 * 1992: Inta El A'alam (You Are The World)
 * 1992: Shayfak (I See You)
 * 1993: Ella Ana (Except Me)
 * 1994: Inta Mahboubi (You Are My Beloved, love)
 * 1995: Baollak Eih (Tell You What)
 * 1996: Akdar (I Can Make It Through)
 * 1996: Shey Daa' (Something Lost)
 * 1997: Betheb Meen (Who Do You Love)
 * 1998: Khally Bokra li Bokra (Leave Tomorrow for the Future)
 * 1999: Wahdaniya (Lonely Woman)
 * 2001: Leih Sebtaha (Why Did You Leave Her)
 * 2003: Omry Maak (My Life With You)
 * 2005: Bahibbik Wahashteeny (Loving You, I Miss You)
 * 2007: Kolma N'arrab (Whenever We Come Closer)
 * 2009: Nefsy Ahebbak (I'd Like to Love You)
 * 2010: Alhekaya Almohamadia (Prophet Mohammad' Story)
 * 2010: Mahaddesh Yehasebni (Don'the Judge Me)
 * 2015: Ahlam Barea'a (Innocent Dreams)
 * 2018: Rah Tezkerny (You will remember me)
 * 2019: Hala Khassa Geddan (Very Special Case)
 * 2020 : Mazh

Singles

 * Nehlam Eih (What Should We Dream Of?) ft. Thekra
 * Mahabba (Love) ft. Talal Salama
 * Le Soal (I Have a Question) ft. Abdalla Rweished
 * Maizza (Preciousness) ft. Abdalla Rweished
 * Khaleeny Maak (Keep Me With You) ft. Fahd
 * El Ard Hiya Hiya (The Land Will Stay) tribute to Kuwait's liberation
 * Azeez We Ghali (Dear and Precious)
 * elAmaken (The Places) tribute to Mohammad Abdo
 * Ana Mnel Balad Dee (I Am From This Country) tribute to Egypt
 * Mitel elAwal (Like The First) released on the Internet
 * Hadeeth el Sabah Wel Massa (Talks Of the Mornings and the Nights) intro for episode
 * Ra' w Ein (R and N) released for princess Reem elWaleed's wedding
 * Ya Rab (Oh God) released for Holy Month of Ramadan
 * Hekayat elGharam (Love Stories)
 * Ma Bataallemsh (I'll Never Learn)
 * Ynayer (January) 25 January 2011
 * Sebto (I've left him) 2011
 * `Aeish Galby (Staying in the heart) (Khaliji song) 2012
 * Law Kont (If You Were) 2012
 * Ajmal Makan (The Most Beautiful Place) 2014
 * Ann Farh Ghayeb 2017

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Angham


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kim Jun-Yop

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP

Kim Jun-Yop
The sub-stub reads: "Kim Jun-Yop, historian, educator, social activist. Attended Nanjing University." End of article. 29 google hits. GRider\talk 23:23, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete. People of his caliber are probably in the tens of thousands. Oleg Alexandrov 00:35, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, possible vanity. Megan1967 05:44, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Former president of Korea University in South Korea, major academic in North Korea relations. Declined appointment as prime minister of South Korea in 1990 under Roh Tae Woo. Needs cleanup, expansion. JuntungWu 02:49, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep but expand some more. Radiant! 09:10, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. ComCat 02:13, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep per JuntungWu Kappa 22:31, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, average academic, nothing outstanding. JamesBurns 06:14, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Article establishes notability. Mikkalai 22:16, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)


text: User talk:69.177.117.179

title: User talk:69.177.117.179


text:
Talk:François Guizot

Untitled
Should the first body paragraph not call Mme. Guizot a typical Huguenot of the 18th, or even 19th C?
 * I removed the egregious error. It now says "of her time". --Jmabel | Talk 00:15, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

Bias/POV
Don't feel like slapping up a POV tag or trying to fix this article right now, but it is overflowing with the biases of the old Britannica. In some parts it approaches a work of propaganda. 75.183.8.246 17:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. It is biased as could be. Should be shortened. Very difficult to read and very verbose. At least a summarizing introduction would be helpful...--85.140.31.47 18:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Rating
There is a lot of information here, so this merits B article status. However, there are no specific citations despite the number of references. This would help in upgrading the article as would adding more detail and trying to help the flow of the article. ludahai 魯大海 05:15, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

There is way too much detail here, and it is difficult to glean out the parts important to posterity. I came on here to find out "why is this guy important" and although I'm convinced he is, I can't give you a twenty five word or less summary. It is tedious ploughing through it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.68.88 (talk) 03:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Did he say it?
Is he the originator of the famous quote, attributed to about every politician in varying wording: "Not to be a republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head"? Some say he is, but without a proper source.--87.162.57.103 13:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Since it is copied from the 1911 Britannica, I am much inclined to trust it for facts. Not that it's a good article; it is written for its time, for people who remembered 19th Century European history from living it.  Thus it vaguely references the "Syrian situation" and "the unhappy young queen of Spain" and other matters little known to modern readers having no idea of church/state relations and other background of that particular time.  Knowing a bit of the history, I added links for a few particular people and places but it remains a difficult trek for anyone who is slogging through unfamiliar territory.

 * Does anyone know how to find the name of the principal author? My 1943 Britannica has essentially the same article, without the Wikipedia additions but also without attribution.  Jim.henderson (talk) 16:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:François Guizot


text:
WBNS-FM

WBNS-FM (97.1 MHz) – branded 97.1 The Fan – is a commercial sports radio station in Columbus, Ohio. It and WBNS (1460 AM) are the only two radio stations currently owned by television company Tegna, Inc. The studios are co-located with WBNS-TV (channel 10) on Twin Rivers Drive, west of Downtown Columbus.

WBNS-FM is a Class B station. It has an effective radiated power (ERP) of 20,500 watts. It shares a transmitter tower with WBNS-TV, the tallest free-standing structure in Columbus. It is adjacent to the studios on Twin Rivers Drive near Interstate 670. WBNS-FM broadcasts using HD Radio technology.

Programming
WBNS-FM airs local sports talk shows during weekdays and early evenings. It carries the syndicated ESPN Radio Network late nights and weekends. Its sister station, WBNS 1460 AM, runs the ESPN Network most hours.

WBNS-FM is the FM flagship for the Ohio State Sports Network, the Columbus Blue Jackets Radio Network, and the Columbus Crew, and the market affiliate for the Cleveland Browns Radio Network, the NFL on Westwood One Sports and ESPN Radio, the latter in a shared affiliation with WBNS (AM).

Previous stations

WBNS's sister station, WBNS (AM 1460), was established in 1922. It is one of Ohio's oldest stations. In 1929, it was acquired by the Wolfe Family, which also owned the major daily newspaper, The Columbus Dispatch. WBNS began FM broadcasts as early as 1940 with experimental station W8XVH.

In 1941, it became commercial station W45CM, and later WELD. But few people owned FM receivers in those days, so management suspended operations in July 1953. WELD was formally deleted on July 14, 1953.

Beautiful music
WBNS-FM signed on the air in June 1959. It used the same frequency, 97.1 MHz, previously used by co-owned WELD. At first it largely simulcast WBNS 1460 AM.

In 1970, it broke away from the simulcast. It began airing a beautiful music format, playing quarter-hour sweeps of instrumental cover versions of popular songs, Broadway and Hollywood show tunes. In the 1980s, the station began playing more soft adult contemporary vocals, in an effort to appeal to a younger audience.

Oldies and AC
In November 1991 the station moved from easy listening, to oldies, calling itself "Oldies B-97.1". The playlist was made up of Top 40 hits of the 1960s, along with a few songs from the late '50s and early '70s. Almost ten years later, in July 2001, WBNS-FM moved to modern AC as "The New 97.1", with a mix of pop alternative music.

Eventually, the station evolved with a hot AC format as "97.1-More Music, More Variety." In August 2005, the station began using the "Mix" name and became "Mix 97.1-80s, 90s, Now." Meanwhile, co-owned WBNS 1460 AM had good ratings as an all-sports AM station, as more cities were getting FM sports outlets. Management decided to capitalize on its sports franchise.

Sports format
On January 26, 2009, at 2 PM, WBNS-FM began a simulcast of AM sister station WBNS "1460 The Fan." WBNS-FM became "97.1 The Fan." The final song played on Mix 97.1 was "Leave Out All The Rest" by Linkin Park.

On June 11, 2019, The Columbus Dispatch announced it was selling its broadcasting assets, including WBNS-AM-FM-TV, to Tegna Inc., for $535 million in cash. The deal was expected to close in the third quarter of 2019, pending Federal Communications Commission approval. The sale was completed on August 8.

Over time, WBNS-FM became the exclusive home of local Columbus-based sports shows, while WBNS 1460 AM airs the national ESPN Radio Network feed. The AM station is also heard on one of WBNS-FM's HD Radio digital subchannels. In May 2024, the BetQL Network, carrying sports gambling shows, began airing on WBNS-FM-HD3.

title: WBNS-FM