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George III of Georgia

George III (გიორგი III) (died 27 March 1184), of the Bagrationi dynasty, was the 8th King (mepe) of Georgia from 1156 to 1184. He became king when his father, Demetrius I, died in 1156, which was preceded by his brother's revolt against their father in 1154. His reign was part of what would be called the Georgian Golden Age – a historical period in the High Middle Ages, during which the Kingdom of Georgia reached the peak of its military power and development.

Life
He succeeded on his father Demetrius I's death in 1156. He changed his father's defensive policy into a more aggressive one and resumed offensive against the neighboring Seljuqid rulers in Armenia. The same year he ascended to the throne, George launched a successful campaign against the Shah-Armens. It may be said that the Shah-Armen took part in almost all the campaigns undertaken against Georgia between 1130s to 1160s. Moreover, Shah-Armens enlisted the assistance of Georgian feudals disaffected with the Georgian monarchs and gave them asylum.

In 1156 the Ani's Christian population rose against the emir Fakr al-Din Shaddad, a vassal of George III, and turned the town over to his brother Fadl ibn Mahmud. But Fadl, too, apparently could not satisfy the people of Ani, and this time the town was offered to the George III, who took advantage of this offer and subjugated Ani, appointing his general Ivane Orbeli as its ruler in 1161. A coalition consisting of the ruler of Ahlat, Shah-Armen Sökmen II, the ruler of Diyarbekir, Kotb ad-Din il-Ghazi, Al-Malik of Erzerum, and others was formed as soon as the Georgians seized the town, but the latter defeated the allies. He then marched against one of the members of the coalition, the king of Erzerum, and in the same year, 1161, defeated and made him prisoner, but then released him for a large ransom. The capture of Ani and the defeat of the Saltukid-forces enabled the Georgian king to march on Dvin. The following year in August/September 1162, Dvin was temporarily occupied and sacked, the non-Christian population was pillaged and the Georgian troops returned home loaded with booty. The king appointed Ananiya, a member of the local feudal nobility to govern the town.

A coalition of Muslim rulers led by Ildeniz, ruler of Adarbadagan and some other regions, embarked upon a campaign against Georgia in early 1163. He was joined by the Shah-Armen Sökmen II, Ak-Sunkur, ruler of Maragha, and others. With an army of 50,000 troops they marched on Georgia. The Georgian army was defeated. The enemy took the fortress of Gagi, laid waste as far as the region of Gagi and Gegharkunik, seized prisoners and booty, and then moved to Ani. The Muslim rulers were jubilant, and they prepared for a new campaign. However, this time they were forestalled by George III, who marched into Arran at the beginning of 1166, occupied a region extending to Ganja, devastated the land and turn back with prisoners and booty. In 1167, George III marched to defend his vassal Shah Aghsartan of Shirvan against the Khazar and Kipchak assaults and strengthened the Georgian dominance in the area.

There seemed to be no end to the war between George III and atabeg Eldiguz. But the belligerents were exhausted to such an extent that Eldiguz proposed an armistice. George had no choice but to make peace. He restored Ani to its former rulers, the Shaddadids, who became his vassals. The Shaddadids, ruled the town for about 10 years, but in 1174 King George took the Shahanshah ibn Mahmud as a prisoner and occupied Ani once again. Ivane Orbeli, was appointed governor of the town. Throughout this period, the Georgian army was swelling with Armenian volunteers, enthusiastically participating in the Iiberation of their country. In 1177 George III was confronted by a rebellious faction of nobles. The rebels intended to dethrone George in favor of the king's fraternal nephew, Demna, who was considered by many to be a legitimate royal heir of his murdered father, David V. Demna's cause was little but a pretext for the nobles, led by the pretender's father-in-law, the amirspasalar ("high constable") Ivane Orbeli, to weaken the crown. George III was able to crush the revolt and embarked on a crackdown campaign on the defiant aristocratic clans; Ivane Orbeli was put to death and the surviving members of his family were driven out of Georgia. Demna, castrated and blinded on his uncle's order, did not survive the mutilation and soon died in prison. Once the rebellion was suppressed and the pretender eliminated, George went ahead to co-opt Tamar into government with him and crowned her as co-ruler in 1178. By doing so, the king attempted to preempt any dispute after his death and legitimize his line on the throne of Georgia. At the same time, he raised men from the Kipchaks as well as from the gentry and unranked classes to keep the dynastic aristocracy away from the center of power.

He died in 1184, and was succeeded by his daughter Tamar. He was buried at Gelati Monastery, western Georgia.

Marriage and children
In ca. 1155, George married Burdukhan (Gurandukht), a daughter of the King of Alania. They had two daughters:

 * Tamar, who succeeded him as ruler.
 * Rusudan, married Manuel Komnenos, the eldest son of Andronikos I who was briefly Byzantine emperor. Rusudan and Manuel were the parents of Alexios and David, founders of the Empire of Trebizond.

title: George III of Georgia


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Wikipedia:Peer review/Iranian Revolution/archive1

Iranian Revolution
This was the COTW in June 2004. I put it up on WP:FAC in December 2004 (here is its sub-page) but objections were raised about: This is still one of the best ex-COTWs and I'd like to get it up to featured status: I don't think it is far off. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:25, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * lack of information on the number of people killed or who fled the country under the new regime
 * references - it has "further reading"
 * section on post-revolutionary impact is too short
 * POV was said to be anti-shah and/or cleric (apparently a lot of people welcomed the Shah's modernization and westernization, and, for example, women lost a lot of their rights after the revolution)

Yes it looks pretty good overall. One sentence did catch my eye though: it began, "During this three-day..." and concerned the 2500yr celebration of the founding of the Persian Empire. But the sentence did not include a conclusion. — RJH 18:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's looking quite good. I tightened up the intro paragraphs a bit, but they could still use a little more tweaking. They provide a good overview of events, but would benefit by being more concise. Also:

 * The first section, "Precursors", begins a little too abruptly. The beginning of Pahlavi's rule in 1941, rather than its resumption in 1953, would be a better starting point. The rest of this section looks good, but would be better if the writing were made more precise. Sentences "The dominant theology..." and "These included..." could be merged, the "Inflation accelerated..." sentence is kind of hard to parse and the rest of the paragraph could use some polishing, etc.
 * "Pre-revolutionary conditions" could be more neutral. It comes across being strongly anti-Shah; by focusing on all the negative things the Shah did, it gives the impression he was universally hated. Certainly the Shah maintained some support during this time; why did they support him? And the same for later sections. I think in order to understand why so many revolted against the Shah, it would help to know why so many others remained loyal.
 * "Overthrow of the Shah", same issue. Perhaps it's because I'm reading this from a U.S. perspective, but I can't understand how anyone could support a Shah who continues to kill hundreds of protesters. Obviously, by this point most of the population is saying "we can't let this guy do whatever the f. he wants", yet some remain loyal; why?
 * During the period leading up to the Shah's overthrow, it'd be good to see more development on how Khomeini, among the opposition leaders, came to be chosen. He is leading a "small faction" in 1977, the press attacks him in 1978, and he has majority support in 1979. That's about all we get. I'd like to know more about why he became the people's choice.
 * The "Consolidation of power" section is organized rather differently from the rest; making this consistent with the rest would help, I think.

Aside from that, I'd say it's mostly a matter of polishing the style a bit and tightening up the narrative flow, and it'd be near-featured status. Nice work! -- Wapcaplet 20:02, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

_____________________

If I may add about the last point (excuse me if this is not the right place to add), revolutions do not require a majority of the people's support. A majority of American people weren't beholden to Washington in 1776. A majority of the Russian people did not support Lenin's Bolsheviks in 1917. A majority of Ukrainians did not support Yukashenko in 2004. I seriously doubt a majority of the Iranian people supported Khomeini in 1979. All you need for a revolution is a sufficient mass number, which needs be nowhere near a majority. That part of the article almost certainly needs correction.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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Brianchon's theorem

In geometry, Brianchon's theorem is a theorem stating that when a hexagon is circumscribed around a conic section, its principal diagonals (those connecting opposite vertices) meet in a single point. It is named after Charles Julien Brianchon (1783–1864).

Formal statement
Let $$P_1P_2P_3P_4P_5P_6$$ be a hexagon formed by six tangent lines of a conic section. Then lines $$\overline{P_1P_4},\; \overline{P_2P_5},\; \overline{P_3P_6}$$ (extended diagonals each connecting opposite vertices) intersect at a single point $$B$$, the Brianchon point.

Connection to Pascal's theorem
The polar reciprocal and projective dual of this theorem give Pascal's theorem.

Degenerations
As for Pascal's theorem there exist degenerations for Brianchon's theorem, too: Let coincide two neighbored tangents. Their point of intersection becomes a point of the conic. In the diagram three pairs of neighbored tangents coincide. This procedure results in a statement on inellipses of triangles. From a projective point of view the two triangles $$P_1P_3P_5$$ and $$P_2P_4P_6$$ lie perspectively with center $$B$$. That means there exists a central collineation, which maps the one onto the other triangle. But only in special cases this collineation is an affine scaling. For example for a Steiner inellipse, where the Brianchon point is the centroid.

In the affine plane
Brianchon's theorem is true in both the affine plane and the real projective plane. However, its statement in the affine plane is in a sense less informative and more complicated than that in the projective plane. Consider, for example, five tangent lines to a parabola. These may be considered sides of a hexagon whose sixth side is the line at infinity, but there is no line at infinity in the affine plane. In two instances, a line from a (non-existent) vertex to the opposite vertex would be a line parallel to one of the five tangent lines. Brianchon's theorem stated only for the affine plane would therefore have to be stated differently in such a situation.

The projective dual of Brianchon's theorem has exceptions in the affine plane but not in the projective plane.

Proof
Brianchon's theorem can be proved by the idea of radical axis or reciprocation. To prove it take an arbitrary length (MN) and carry it on the tangents starting from the contact points: PL = RJ = QH = MN etc. Draw circles a, b, c tangent to opposite sides of the hexagon at the created points (H,W), (J,V) and (L,Y) respectively. One sees easily that the concurring lines coincide with the radical axes ab, bc, ca resepectively, of the three circles taken in pairs. Thus O coincides with the radical center of these three circles.

The theorem takes particular forms in the case of circumscriptible pentagons e.g. when R and Q tend to coincide with F, a case where AFE is transformed to the tangent at F. Then, taking a further similar identification of points T,C and U, we obtain a corresponding theorem for quadrangles.

title: Brianchon's theorem


text:
User talk:Stuart Yeates

Hi! welcome to Wikipedia!

Hope you enjoy contributing to Wikipedia. Be bold in editing pages. Here are some links that you might find useful:

 * Try the Tutorial. If you have less time, try How to edit a page.
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I hope you stick around and keep contributing to Wikipedia. Drop a note at New user log.

-- Utcursch | Talk to me

title: User talk:Stuart Yeates


text:
User talk:Harishc

Hi! welcome to Wikipedia!

Hope you enjoy contributing to Wikipedia. Be bold in editing pages. Here are some links that you might find useful:

 * Try the Tutorial. If you have less time, try How to edit a page.
 * To sign your posts (on talk pages, Articles for deletion page etc.) use 	 ~ (four tildes). This will insert your name and timestamp. To insert just your name, type (3 tildes).
 * You can experiment in the test area.
 * You can get help at the Help Desk
 * Some other pages that will help you know more about Wikipedia: Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines, Neutral point of view, Civility, What Wikipedia is not
 * If you made IP edits before creating a user account, you can attribute your IP edits to your account at Changing attribution for an edit.

I hope you stick around and keep contributing to Wikipedia. Drop a note at New user log.

-- Utcursch | Talk to me

title: User talk:Harishc


text:
Bagrat III of Georgia

Bagrat III (ბაგრატ III) (c. 960 – 7 May 1014), of the Bagrationi dynasty, was the king (mepe) of the Kingdom of Abkhazia from 978 on (as Bagrat II of Abkhazia) and king of Georgia from 1008 on. He united these two titles by dynastic inheritance and, through conquest and diplomacy, added more lands to his realm, effectively becoming the first king of the Kingdom of Georgia. Before Bagrat was crowned as king, he had also reigned in Kartli as co-ruler with his father Gurgen from 976 to 978.

Youth
Bagrat was born in the 960s, probably in Kartli. He is the only known son of Gurgen, titular king of Iberia, and Gurandukht, daughter of King George II of Abkhazia. Bagrat was thus heir to the Bagrationi dynasty. Still young, the Crown Prince of Iberia was designated heir by his father's cousin, David III of Tao, who reigned over the Duchy of Upper Tao and had been the Kouropalates of Iberia since 966, and who educated the young prince at his court.

At that time, Iberia was under the rule of the Kingdom of Abkhazia. In 780, Abkhazia, which had escaped the Arab invasions, had emancipated itself from Byzantine suzerainty and established itself as a powerful kingdom and master of the region; in 916, the Abkhazian state reached its apogee by invading Iberia and threatening Armenia. But in 975, King Theodosius III, known as the Blind (who was also Bagrat's maternal uncle), acceded to the throne and came into conflict with his nobility. Civil war broke out in Abkhazia and chaos spread throughout the country. Exploiting the situation, Kvirike II of Kakheti, who reigned in eastern Georgia, organised raids against Iberia, challenging the power of the Abkhaz monarch. He eventually completely invaded eastern Georgia. However, the eristavi (governor) of Kartli, Ioane Marushisdze rebelled against Kvirike II and sought the help of the young Bagrat's adoptive father, David III of Tao. In 976, David III arrived in Iberia and defeated the Kakhetians, who had to leave the country. David III, the new liberator of Iberia, offered a kingdom liberated from all its previous overlords to Bagrat who, still young, was placed under his father's regency.

Between throne and exile
The first part of Bagrat III's reign in Iberia is short and little is known about it. What is known is that soon after his arrival on the throne, the nobles, who had taken advantage of the bad situation in Georgia to recover their former power, began to rebel.

In 978, the Nakurdevelians (feudalists from Kurdis-Khevi) and the Baratians united and allied themselves with the new prince of Kakheti, David. He soon seized the fortress of Uplistsikhe and took young Bagrat III and his parents hostage. On hearing the news, David III of Tao launched an expedition against the Kakhetians who, after negotiations, returned Iberia to the royal family, but retained the fortresses of Grouvi and Tsirkvali. From then on, the kingdom was ruled by Queen Gurandukht, mother of Bagrat III.

King of Abkhazia
Meanwhile, in Abkhazia, King Theodosius III's weakness in the face of the nobles further weakened the kingdom. Taking advantage of the situation, Ioane Marushisdze, who had already placed Bagrat on the Iberian throne, tried to bring his protégé to the head of the Kingdom of Abkhazia. The eristavi allied himself with the nobility of Iberia and Abkhazia and they all agreed that a powerful new king was needed to unify the two countries. Bagrat III was invested with the royal attributes and, having reached maturity, saw all the nobility bow at his feet. This event is said to have taken place in 978, but others place it two years later. Bagrat, now master of western and central Georgia, sent the deposed king Theodosius III the Blind to his adoptive father David III of Tao as a gift.

Having become King of Abkhazia, Bagrat III had to return urgently to Kartli, where his mother, the regent Gurandukht, reigned and wanted to make herself independent. The nobles of Kartli, who appreciated their situation under the regent's reign, refused to recognise Bagrat III as King of Iberia and placed a certain Kavtar Tbeli at their head. The nobles took up defensive positions throughout central Georgia, but the king defeated them in battle at Moghrisi. Bagrat advanced into his own kingdom and took Uplistsikhe back from his mother. Having put down the noble rebellion, he returned to Abkhazia, where he summoned his mother. Bagrat III then began to put Abkhazian affairs in order. He calmed the nobles and established himself as a loyal and honest monarch.

Family War
A few years later, before 994, the Iberian nobleman Rati, son of Liparit, Duke of Kldekari, emerged as a powerful nobleman in the eastern part of Bagrat III's kingdom. He soon came into possession of the fortress of Ateni and all Kartli south of the Mtkuari, Trialeti, Manglis-khevi, and Skvireti, and then refused to submit to Bagrat III. The latter then marched with a powerful army, reinforced by his father Gurgen's militia, against the rebellious nobleman. However, fearing that Bagrat would be more powerful than he was, the king's adoptive father allied himself with Bagrat Regueni, Gurgen's own father, and with the Armenian monarchs Smbat II of Armenia and Abas of Kars, in order to stop Bagrat's intervention.

The first battle took place on the plains of Gardatkhinlni, at the entrance to Shavsheti. Gurgen's armies were defeated and the prince had to take refuge in the fortress of Tsepta. King Bagrat III, who had suspended his campaign against Rati, learnt to his great regret that he did not have enough strength to take on the armies of David III of Tao and Bagrat Regueni and began negotiations with the opposing camp. In the end, peace was granted and the so-called "family war" came to an end.

Bagrat III returned to Abkhazia and reigned peacefully, leaving Rati, the rebellious nobleman, to return to his domains. But the king's strategy was to let Rati return to Kartli to make him believe that the conflict was over. So, during the following winter, Bagrat gathered his troops and laid siege to Kldekari, before defeating the insolent duke. Rati was pardoned and made Duke of Argveti, in western Georgia.

The unification
On 31 March 1000, Bagrat III's adoptive father, David III Kuropalates, died, probably assassinated. The Georgian Chronicle of Vakhushti of Kartli states that when the ruler of Tao died, the region was left desolate. The Byzantine emperor Basil II, to whom David had bequeathed the Tao as a result of his role in the Bardas Phokas revolt, decided to force his way back. However, the emperor, who had just returned from a campaign in Syria against the Fatimid Caliphate and was expecting a difficult campaign, found himself faced with understanding nobles who recognised themselves as vassals of a powerful monarch, thus denying the authority of Bagrat III. In just a few months, he completed the conquest of Tao-Klarjeti, before granting the title of "Magistros" to Gurgen, Bagrat's father, and that of "Kouropalates" to the king himself. He thus tried to set the son against his father, but no conflict arose, as Gurgen was considered an honest and upright man and father. As a result, Bagrat III, in addition to his title of King of Abkhazia, became Kuropalates of Iberia, unifying western Georgia in the process, but losing a large part of his family heritage.

In 1008, he received the hereditary title of "King of the Georgians" and the unified duchy of Lower Tao-Javakheti when his father, Gurgen I of Iberia, died. Having become master of all the lands ruled by members of the Bagrationi dynasty, Bagrat III decided to intervene in Eastern Transcaucasia. He began by claiming from David, prince and Chorbishop of Kakheti[24], the lands he had annexed after his victory in the Kartli War of 978. However, the latter refused and announced his intention to go to war. Bagrat III, angered by the Kakhetian's refusal, headed for Kakheti, crossed the Kartli and devastated Hereti, an eastern province of the principality of Kakheti. He appointed a certain Aboulal as mtavari ("count") of the region, but he was overthrown by the local nobility, who took control of the country and decided to unite with Kakheti.

Having learned of the revolt in the newly annexed Hereti, Bagrat III decided to unite his troops and returned to the conquest. In a short space of time, he completed the annexation of Hereti, domesticated the local nobility in Imereti, and placed the relics of the country's first Orthodox queen near these nobles. In 1008, Bagrat III began the conquest of Kakheti. He completed it in 1010, without encountering too much opposition. He left the fortress of Bodchorma to Prince Kvirike III of Kakheti, son of Bishop David, but took it from him and annexed the country completely some time later. At the end of this war, Bagrat III found himself absolute master of the whole of Georgia. He had completed the unification of the country and was now "King of the Abkhazians, Kartvels, Rans and Kakhs".

War against the Shaddadids
As King of Georgia, Bagrat III decided to embark on campaigns against neighbouring countries. He chose to attack the neighbouring Emirate of Ganja, whose emir, Fadl ibn Muhammad, had been raiding eastern Georgia for some time. To achieve his aims, Bagrat formed an alliance with the Armenian king Gagik I. In 1012, Armenian and Georgian troops joined forces and finally set off for Ganja in Dzoraget, Armenia. Fadl, who had sworn to the death of all Christians and had never met a ruler capable of defeating him up to that point, was very surprised when he learned of the advance of the armies of two countries that worshipped the Cross, and took refuge in a fortress where he prepared for a difficult siege. Bagrat took advantage of the situation to seize the lands of Arran, which he made a Georgian province, and began the Siege of Shamkor, the fortified town in which the Shaddadid emir had taken refuge. In just a few days, he overcame the city's defences and granted peace to the vanquished. Fadl found himself a vassal of Georgia and was obliged to come to Bagrat's aid if necessary; Ganja also had to pay tribute (Kharaj) from then on. The Emir offered many sumptuous gifts to the King of Georgia, as well as to the nobles who had persuaded Bagrat to conclude the peace without annexing Ganja.

Power of Georgia
After subduing eastern Transcaucasia, Bagrat III took charge of the border with the Byzantine Empire in the south-west of the country. Since the year 1000 and the death of David III Kuropalates, who had ceded his domains to Byzantium in his will, Tao-Klarjeti had been part of the Byzantine Empire. For a while, he found himself master of Lower Tao and Javakheti, following the death of his father, but he still had no power over the lands under Byzantine administration. However, between 1011 and 1012, Bagrat chose to regain control of his hereditary lands.Sumbatd war against the princes Sumbat and Gurgen of Klarjeti, who, having submitted to Byzantium, had taken the title of "King of Klarjeti" and threatened the power of Georgia. He soon succeeded in defeating them, without any opposition from the Byzantine Empire. In 1012, he had the two brothers Sumbat and Gurgen killed while they were imprisoned in the citadel of Tmogvi, while he allowed their children to go into exile in Constantinople.

Bagrat III, having just annexed the duchy of Artanuji, found himself definitively master of all Georgian lands. But he didn't stop there. He led campaigns in the Caucasus and subdued Arran, Shirvan and, according to contemporary Georgian charters, Armenia[33]. He allied himself with the Abbasid caliph Al-Qadir and set himself up as an enemy of Basil II. Under his reign, Georgia was united and there were no noble revolts. The king, who held Georgia in his hand like an absolute monarch, was also loved by his people, and the peasants considered themselves his servants.

Bagrat and Christianity
With the unification of Georgia, King Bagrat III also created the Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia, which still exists today. Indeed, before the 1000s, Patriarch John IV bore the title of “Catholicos of Iberia”. A very Christian king, Bagrat III had several churches built, including the Bedia Cathedral, in 999, which he elevated to the rank of chief town of a bishopric and also the religious capital of Abkhazia, thus taking this title from Goudakva this title. Georgia's first monarch was also responsible for Bagrati Cathedral, in his capital of Kutaisi, a remarkable religious building, the construction of which was completed in 1003. The monument was part of UNESCO'S World Heritage from the 18th session in 1994 until 2017, when it was withdrawn because it was "the subject of a major reconstruction project affecting its integrity and authenticity”.

According to Vakhushti Bagrationi and Marie-Félicité Brosset, Emperor Basil II, who did not have such good relations with Georgia, offered the Caucasian Patriarchate the monastery of Kestoria (probably in Greece). At the same time, the Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia acquired no less than one hundred and five villages, silver and gold, icons and crosses to decorate the churches. According to Vakhushti, writing in the 18th century, it was under Bagrat III's protection that the Svetitskhoveli Cathedral (Mtskheta), now the seat of the Catholicos-Patriarch of Georgia, was built, or rather restored, using the ornaments brought back from Kestoria. However, it is now known that this did not happen until the next reign.

Death

After defeating the dukes of Klarjeti, Bagrat III undertook a final journey to his homeland. He crossed the whole of his kingdom, from Abkhazia to Hereti, passing through Kartli and Kakheti before finally stopping in Tao, where he spent the winter of 1013-1014 in the fortress of Panaskerti, the former residence of the sovereigns of Tao. He died on 7 May 1014 in his royal residence, at an advanced age, with long white hair, after a reign of thirty-six years. Count Zviad Orbeliani, who reigned in a province of Abkhazia, took care of his body, transporting it to the north of the country. The first monarch of unified Georgia was buried in 1014 in the Bedia Cathedral.

He was canonized by the Georgian Orthodox Church on 22 December 2016, his feast day set for 7 May (NS 21 May).

Family
According to genealogist Cyril Toumanoff, King Bagrat III had a wife, Martha, who bore him a son: George I of Georgia. Other sources tell us of a second child, Basil, who was canonised as Basil of Khakhuli by the Georgian Orthodox Church.

title: Bagrat III of Georgia


text:
Wikipedia:Peer review/Tangshan earthquake/archive1

Tangshan earthquake
This was the COTW in January 2005. I think it is pretty good on its topic, although any expansion would be great, but it particularly needs some proper references. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:27, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Swadesh list

General
It should be noted that all linguistic sources are extremely old and outdated. Further no single textbook is even mentioned (what I made up for). This is a bad sign.HJJHolm 11:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

source, 207? 200?
what is the source of this list, and why does it have 207 rather than 200 items? dab (ᛏ) 13:28, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Swadesh himself started with ca. 500 words (before 1950), referenced a list of 225 (1950), referenced a list of 215 (1951), and gradually shortened it via 207, 200, to finally 100 words. Even these have often been proved to contain a lot of lexemes, wich are not at all resistant to borrowing.HJJHolm 11:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I correct myself: The criterion is primarily "universal availability".HJJHolm (talk) 09:04, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The source is here at wiktionary: --Arcadian 04:31, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I see -- the Rosetta project gives you a choice of 100, 200 or 207 word lists. It is our job to find out who introduced which list. A google search gave me no conclusive answers. It is very important to stick to a fixed list. It doesn't do to pick any old list of basic vocabulary: It can be so rigged to show greater or lesser realtionship, depending on what you want to show. I think Swadesh originally proposed 100 items, and it was later expanded to 200 (by whom?), and the additional 7 items may be an idiosyncracy of Rosetta project. (also, which are the 7 items added?). I'll try to find out, but I'm not sure where I'll find this information. dab (ᛏ) 06:45, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * the 207-word list is simply the combination of the 100 & 200 word lists. The 200-word list is not the 100-word + 100 more words. The following 7 words appear in the 100-word list but not the 200-word list: breast, fingernail, full, horn, knee, moon, round. peace – ishwar  (speak)  18:45, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

 * the 200-word list comes from Swadesh (1952). This list was later divided into two 100-word groups of which the 1st group is preferred and the 2nd group is secondary & to be used if there are items in the 1st group that are difficult or impossible to translate. The revision is proposed in Swadesh (1955). The original list had 215 words. – ishwar  (speak)  19:06, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * This is all not the full truth and not at all an answer to the question of dab. Swadesh nowhere used a 207-word list, out of well established and substantiated reasons. Thus, the 207 is an "Ishwar (not a Swadesh) list" and is a misuse of Swadesh's name and intentions. Such personal ad-hoc lists destroy any chance for exact computations. HJJHolm (talk) 09:04, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Moreover, ANY list has its shortcomings in one or the other language or culture. For the sake of compatability, and last, not least, to honour Swadesh, the Ishwar-version in wiktionary has urgently to be replaced by the final, original Swadesh 100-word list. HJJHolm (talk) 09:05, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

concepts across languages
I find it interesting what the page on glottochronology has to say about Swadesh lists:

"The process makes use of the Swadesh list, a list of basic lexical terms compiled by Morris Swadesh. This core vocabulary was designed to encompass concepts common to every human language, eliminating concepts that vary by culture and time."
 * This is correct - contrasting to the repeated entry in the specific lists, " Its only objective is to give a rough idea of the language, by showing its lexical and, when possible, phonetic basis.", which is absolutely erroneous. HJJHolm (talk) 09:33, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

While the concepts might be common to most languages, they are certainly not common to all, and at that, the words each individual language uses could be very different in form and function. I forget the name of it, but there is a language spoken in South America that has almost no number words -- just "one" and "more than one".
 * You are most likely refering to the Pirahã language. Actually, the closer they have to numbers is few/fewer/small and another word for more/many/bigger as they have no need for numbers. Also, they don't even have any specific word for colors (they would use something like «of the same color than the sky») nor words for abstract concept like all, soul or cute.  06:05, 18 July 2012 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.163.127.193 (talk)

Combined with the controversy about the rate of language change, I see some pretty big holes. For instance, aside from my native tongue of English, I am most familiar with Japanese, which is far enough from Indo-European that the Swadesh list does not seem to fit very well. For instance, Japanese has several words for first-person and second-person pronouns, and these have changed over time as the most polite form becomes gradually more commonplace until it is replaced by something new. Kisama used to mean something along the lines of "o honorable noble" and was used as a term of polite address, but using it today could get you into a fight as it now means something more like "you little SOB". One of my dictionaries here suggests this shift took place over the course of about 400 years. Meanwhile, the word yama (mountain) was apparently present in the language about a thousand years ago, and is still in current use.

On top of that, I can think of at least four, possibly five different ways of expressing "if" in Japanese, only one of which includes a separate word that correlates to English "if" (the rest all use specific verb forms).

Has there been any effort to expand on Swadesh's word-list ideas to correct for these issues? --- Eirikr 07:53, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * yes, Swadesh reduced his list from 215 to 100 due to European bias. read: Swadesh (1955) & Hoijer (1956). peace – ishwar  (speak)  19:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

"Person"
I changed "person" to "man (human being)" because it's all too common to get translations like Latin persona or German Person for this, when what is intended is translations like Latin homo or German Mensch. --Angr/comhrá 07:59, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
 * This again is a personal ad-hoc change. Moreover, this is completely senseless and ignorant, because the final Swadesh list has "man" AND "person". To maintain worldwide compatability, all have to use the final Swadesh list of 1971. HJJHolm (talk) 05:58, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:NOT
While discussion of the Swadesh list is valuable for WP, including the translations is not encyclopedic, per What Wikipedia is not. That is something clearly more suitable to Wiktionary, and they are already duplicated there for the most part. To reduce wasted duplicated effort, I believe all the lists should be on only Wiktionary, except perhaps the English list can stay in this article. I started the discussion on Talk:Hindi_Swadesh_list where I first saw one of the lists before I reallized there were many more. In short I believe we should transwiki all of them to Wiktionary. That is specifically what Wiktionary is for and we should use it for that. - Taxman Talk 16:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

 * This makes sense to me, and is something I've already effectively agreed to in a discussion with Peter Isotalo over on the Japanese Swadesh list Talk page, opting instead to develop one over at Swadesh list for Japanese.

 * For the English-language article Swadesh list, I think it might be useful to have the list showing more than just English, as an example of how the list is used in comparison. Perhaps instead of the flat English-only list currently on the page, we could use the example table at wikt:Appendix:Swadesh list?  Having a populated table like that, in which we can see many different languages and how the words begin to correlate and how sound differences sometimes follow a pattern, would make it more clear what the list was developed for in the first place.  :)  Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 22:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The problem with using that example, is it still basically incorporates a source document that is more effectively placed elsewhere. It's just as beneficial to the reader to point them to Wiktionary. There's also the issue of that table including only European languages and the bias that that represents. But I'm ok having some kind of an example (ideally more balanced) if people want it as long as we don't have separate lists here at Wikipedia. - Taxman Talk 00:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I understand the example is biased towards IE languages, but that's partly the point -- the list was developed to show relatedness. Comparing English with Swahili, Nahuatl, Wiradhuri wouldn't do any good, as you have to compare with languages that might have at least some interrelation.  :)  But then perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by more balanced?  If you simply mean that you'd rather the sample list be more along the lines of, say, the Swadesh lists for Finno-Ugric languages, where the English column is just a reference, that's fine by me.  And I definitely agree about not having separate lists here at Wikipedia.  Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 15:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I've redirected Afrikaans Swadesh list to wikt:Wiktionary:Swadesh lists for Afrikaans and Dutch, and fixed most of the mistakes and omisions at the wiktionary list. Anyone brave enough to do the other languages? (Dutch Swadesh list should redirect to wikt:Appendix:Swadesh list, not the Afrikaans/Dutch list.)-- Jeandré,t12:04z
 * Great, thanks. I certainly don't have time to transwiki them all, but I've started tagging them with Template:Move to Wiktionary to get the process rolling. I won't be able to finish that either, but it's a start. I've done Hindi also. Are cross project redirects considered a good idea though? - Taxman Talk 12:57, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki redirects - Well, we have a nice Template:wi which looks better than a simple #redirect whatever, which easy to use. As a Wiktionarian and a Wikipedian, I believe Wiktionary could benefit from the move, but we have lots of Swadesh lists already. If nobody else moves or redirects and merges them, then I'll do it. --Dangherous 21:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

German equivalent
The German equivalent to Swadesh list is not Grundwortschatz. The backlinks from there to many other languages are all wrong.

The sense of Grundwortschatz is a vocabulary which contains the 1200 or 2000 most used words of language. Booklets containing such a Grundwortschatz  are used by language learners.

Thus I remove the link and the backlinks. Hirzel 01:22, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

 * As this wrong link is present in the corresponding pages of the other languages, it's likely that your fix will be removed by a bot in a next future ... So, the links should be fixed in all corresponding pages. Croquant 09:05, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Correct. For this reason I canceled the last sentence in the first chapter erroneously referring to the usage as core vocabulary.HJJHolm 11:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Cognates?
What if one language has a word that is a cognate with a similar meaning, but not precisely what the Swadesh list has? For example, in Russian отец means "father." In Ukrainian it's батько, but one can say "святый отец" when they mean what in Russian would be described as "батюшка"! So the words have switched meanings! Another example: In Russian one says человек for male person in the singular nominative, but люди in the plural nominative, and back to человек in the genitive plural while Ukrainian has the same pattern, but the other way around!! Obviously, these two languges are closer than just two languages where these words don't match. -Iopq 20:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

 * This is hardly relevant since the method doesn't actually work. It is here as a curiousity at best, so there's not much point in discussing how it should be modified. It cannot be modified into a functioning form since it´s presumption of steady lexical replacement is false.--AkselGerner (talk) 19:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

 * It means that father and male person are not good examples for the beginning linguist who wishes to use Swadesh lists for comparative purposes.
 * Swadesh lists are used in comparative linguistics in reconstructing phonological changes since either language has split or since one language borrowed the other's word. So the Spanish word for "word" is palabra but it's mot in French.  A little investigation finds that palabre in French means "endless discussion."  French mot comes from Latin muttum (a mutter, a grunt) and I'm not sure where mot's cognates appear in spanish (mutis?).  The idea behind Swadesh lists is that they are words that speakers are least likely to change from borrowing.
 * In the scheme of the comparative method, such semantic shifting doesn't deter a linguist. AEuSoes1 02:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Incorrect terminology! Swadesh's method does not belong to comparative linguistics. Comparative linguistics is a fully viable method of studying genetic relations between languages and by extension to reconstruct predecessor language forms, be it sounds, words or grammatical forms. Swadeshian lexicostatistics however does not use the comparative method at all, instead relying entirely upon fonetic similarity of lexical equivalents in the studied language. Besides using such quick-and-dirty technique it also uses completely false theoretic assumptions that render it´s results completely useless. Comparative linguistics does not generally involve any kind of dating of linguistic diversion, but lexicostatistics uses nothing else. See Lyle Campbell, Historical Linguistics - an introduction for comfirmation.--AkselGerner (talk) 22:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * All right, so then what sorts of words do comparative linguists use? — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  00:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Any word will do. The point is that comparative linguistics looks at both meaning and soundshape and meticulously reconstructs the sound changes that a language has gone through, looking both at the body of evidence found within the language itself ([internal reconstruction], in fact similar to generative phonology, except that generative phonology mistakenly believes itself to be synchronic science), and at the body of evidence of related and/or neighbouring languages. For example, while not genetically related to indoeuropean languages (in the sense that no evidence to the fact can be shown with any scientific merit) the finnish language has loan-words from baltic and germanic languages that can be used to show the sound changes of their donor languages. In other words, to show that a language is related to another the vocabulary must first be analyzed in depth, the noise of later loanings and typologically commonplace changes must be filtered out and the complete set of sound changes reconstructed until the point where a common denominator lexicon can be shown to exist. Comparative linguistics is a complete science, not a mere hack like Swadeshs method, and the possibility of very peripheral vocabulary to be preserved intact over millennia is not excluded, in fact it can be shown that high-frequency words are more likely to suffer from atrophy than low-frequency words. Low-frequency words of course are more likely to disappear without trace so they are rarely simultaneously available in distantly related languages. In comparative linguistics the soundshape is more important than the meaning, semantic shift is always possible but phonetic change is subject to rules, at least more so than semantics (but see also grammaticalization theory and grammaticalization pathways). There is no widely accepted method of doing what Swadesh tried to do with his infamous lexicostatistical method, noone can date the protolanguages proposed by the comparative method unless there happens to be written evidence, and then only if the written evidence can be dated. This arises from the nature of diachronic investigation, it is like an x-ray vision that completely ignores the synchronic layers, and all dates are by definition synchronic. . See [comparative method]. --AkselGerner (talk) 20:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * While I disagree with you on a few points, I don't feel like arguing or doing the research to back up my disagreements, especially since it won't have any bearing on the article itself. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  22:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't think? If you don't give good arguments I might edit the article. If you give a non-answer like that there's no telling what I might do. However, I'm cutting some of my arguments above because they are not necessary and are available elsewhere. The generative phonology stab by the way is completely solid: both methods use the same input (synchronic morfophonological variation), make the same practical assumptions and perform parallel operations. They are identical in all but name. It just so happens than any comparative method (internal reconstruction is the comparative method when applied to morfophonological variations within a single language, although the term is also sometimes used for using the comparative method on the dialects of a single language) is always diachronic, the abstracting of the results of past sound changes always gives a pre-form, a reconstructed form.
 * Go ahead and edit the article. If I or anyone else find your edits disagreeable we can talk about them in the talk page.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  02:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

My printable Swadesh
I should propose a list here for easy printing reasons - the question was in WP:RD yesterday. Notes :
 * you (singular)
 * you (plural)
 * man (adult male)
 * man (human being)

What do you think ? -- DLL .. T 23:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This is of no use. Simply take the only valid final Swadesh list of 1971 and stop this additional confusion! HJJHolm (talk) 07:53, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Swadesh tables
I've created Swadesh list of Slavic languages that has multiple languages for direct comparison. I invite other editors to create and contribute to it and similar pages for Celtic, Germanic, Indo-Iranian, Afro-Asiatic, Sino-Tibetan, Romance, Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Austronesian, and whatever other language family there's enough information for. For a base table without any words in it, see this edit. Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 23:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Articles in Nature
I added something about the latest study as that is probably relevant in light of the widespread scientific scepticism. I just realized that it probably belongs in glottochronology rather than here, dagnabbit... and of course it should probably be tuned for a more unbiased tone.--AkselGerner (talk) 20:59, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You have obviously not read or understood that 2003 or the following articles of G&A, because the title suggests that the early split of Hittite were the outcome of their computations. Only by exact reading we detect that the original outcome is a so-called "unrooted" network, and "rooting" this at Hittite is copied from very questionable sources. HJJHolm (talk) 07:59, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Addition: Since the header of the article conceals this fact (though admitted in he article itself), it can nearly be regarded close to a lie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HJJHolm (talk • contribs) 10:24, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

False friends, "great"/"gross"
The current page states:

Do not include false friends into genetically similar lists, e.g. German "gross" : English "great". The English counterpart in this case should be   "big", which is the most basic, simple word for something large in size.

As per the "basic" rule, "big" is indeed the better word; however, "gross" ("groß", more accurately) and "great" are not truly false friends, but near synonymous cognates. Cf. e.g. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=great. The English version has a slightly wider meaning in modern use ("That's just great!"), but even the extended use in "He was great king."/"Er war ein großer König." coincides.)

Depending on the original intentions, which are not entirely clear to me, a better example should be chosen or the text re-written for clarification. Notably, the _English_ "gross" is a false friend of the German "groß".

(As an aside: For an analysis that takes the historical development of languages into account, not just a synchronic analysis, "great" may well be preferable to "big".) 88.77.143.68 (talk) 06:07, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

 * This discussion misses the point: The original is Swadesh's 1972-list, naturally in English. The German translation can be found in the corresponding German article. HJJHolm (talk) 10:20, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

The logical fallacy of our times?
From the article:

Because of this and false underlying assumptions of rates in language change, the work is generally argued against by practitioners of historical linguistics (cf. e.g. Campbell 1998:177ff), although the criticism has very little concrete basis, apart from verbal argument.

This begins with acknowleding the faults of the theory and the dismisses criticism altogether!

Could someone bring some sense into this?

Cheers 85.220.117.90 (talk) 18:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Different lists
It is complete nonsense to list here each and every available list, incompatable to each other, without the least knowledge of the mathematical and linguistic implications and mantraps, of which the item "False friends" may give a small insight. It further does not help anyone to create lists without giving any sources AND etymologies. Out of these reasons at least all lists apart from the last Swadesh list should be cancelled. HJJHolm (talk) 15:03, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Yakhontov list
Regarding this "shorter list", S. Starostin (2000:257, EN25) wrote, " The list of 35 most stable words with = 0.07 or 0.08 has been compiled by Yakhontov. ... However, this short list is not quite suitable for dating or classification." Therefore, and because any use of these lists is extremely difficult and debatable anyway, even for linguists and statisticians, it is urgently demanded to remove all "not-Swadesh-lists" from this article. HJJHolm (talk) 10:17, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I see no sense whatever in presenting a list, which has long been abandoned by S. Starostin, and thus cancelled it. Regarding Hollman (2008) and other recent work: The authors seem to be unaware of the fact that Swadesh himself had already presented figures of the relative stability himself. Already Sh. Embleton came to the conclusion that a 200-word list were the best choice for her calculations, becauses the results from smaller lists grow more and more insignificant. HJJHolm (talk) 06:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

 * If you see no sense to it, you don't need to use it. However, the Holman list is supplanting simple Swadesh. I see it being used more and more often. If you have refs that ist is unreliable, you can add them. — kwami (talk) 07:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean, however, these applications have nothing to do with Swadesh's intentions of "glottochronology", which You obviously have no experience with. HJJHolm (talk) 09:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

 * So, if I disagree with you, I must be ignorant. I suppose that's a step above claiming I'm part of a conspiracy to silence the Truth.
 * Whether they have anything to do with Swadesh's concepts re. glottochronology is irrelevant. Swadesh lists are not in general used for glottochronology.
 * A ref for Starostin having abandoned Yahontov would be useful. Also, if you feel Holman is inaccurate, there are other ranked lists out there, which can be given for comparison. As you argue above, more data is more useful than less. — kwami (talk) 02:29, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Sex?
Wasn't having sex in any way essential for ancient people??? 89.178.241.23 (talk) 21:32, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure, but they probably didn't spend a lot of time writing about it, and when they did, they probably used euphemisms or circumlocutions, e.g., the bible's "lie with." Friendly Cave (talk) 16:29, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

"Core vocabulary" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Core vocabulary. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 October 18 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 10:31, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Error? louse
Please, consider in the 'original' list... Was louse a misprint of 'house' ?

Thank you, M. Michel￼ 174.240.251.29 (talk) 13:33, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

 * No, it's really 'louse'. It's a bit unexpected, I guess, but it's a remarkably stable and rarely borrowed concept. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 04:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Houses, on the other hand, aren't as cross-culturally universal, I think. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 04:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Basic lexicon
I just realised that Wikipedia doesn't have an article (nor even redirect) for "basic lexicon" or "basic vocabulary", and never had. What gives? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 04:21, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Swadesh list


text:
Kingdom of Hereti

The Kingdom of Hereti (ჰერეთის სამეფო heretis samepo) was a medieval Georgian monarchy which emerged in Caucasus on the Iberian-Albanian frontier. Nowadays it roughly corresponds to the southeastern corner of Georgia's Kakheti region and a portion of Azerbaijan's northwestern districts.

According to traditional accounts, the name of the province originated from the legendary patriarch "Heros", the son of Thargamos, who founded the city of Hereti (later known as Khoranta) at the Alazani River.

Background
From the earliest times, Hereti came under the rule of the Caucasian Albania. With the decline of Caucasian Albania, the area was gradually incorporated into the Iberian kingdom forming one of its duchies (saeristavo) in the 5th century and its peoples were eventually assimilated into the Georgians proper. It was when the name Hereti first appeared in the Georgian sources. Hereti was populated by Caucasian Albanians, Dagestani, Armenians, Persians and Georgians. It had flourishing towns that traded with Persia and Armenia.

As a reward for the contribution in the struggle against the Arab occupation, the Iberian ruler (erismtavari) Archil gave Hereti to the noble family of Bagrationi in the 740s–750s. After the death of the last Iberian princes John and Juansher, the Heretian lords extended their fiefdoms and, in 787, established an independent principality (samtavro) with the capital in Shaki.

History
Its first recorded ruler, Sahl Smbatean, slaughtered the Caucasian Albanian (Mihranids) royal family in 822 and declared himself "Shah of Arran", currying favour with the Caliphate by betraying the Zoroastrian Babak Khorramdin he was recognized as the ruler of Arran. Sahl later incurred Arab distrust, was arrested and sent to Baghdad; he was succeeded by his son Adarnase I and grandson, Grigol Hamam. The principality gained significant strength and prestige by 893, allowing Prince Grigol Hamam to be crowned as the king.

Alarmed by the increasing power of the Heretian kingdom, Kvirike I, the ruler of the neighbouring Kakhetian principality, allied himself with King Constantine III of Abkhazia and, in 915, campaigned against King Adarnase II Patrikios. The allies occupied and divided the country but for a short time as Adarnase Patrikios soon reconquered what had been lost. The kingdom survived Kakhetian attacks but lost Caucasian Albania to its Sallarid (Iranian Azerbaijan) neighbour. Adarnase married Queen Dinar, a daughter of Adarnase III of Tao, with whom he had a son Ishkhanik. Ishkhanik was the son and successor of Adarnase Patrikios. Under Ishkhanik, Hereti was forced to recognize the supremacy of the stronger neighbour, Principality of Daylam, ruled by the Salarid dynasty. According to The Georgian Chronicles, Queen Dinar, during the reign of her son Ishkhani, converted Hereti to the Eastern Orthodox confession and abandoned the Oriental Orthodox confession in the 10th century. In 950, Ishkhanik took advantage of the bitter power struggle in the Sallarid state, and ceased to pay tribute effectively restoring his independence.

The next Heretian ruler, John (Ioane Senekerim, 951–959), during his reign kingdom of Hereti reached a climax of power and prestige, mainly after the annexation of the right bank of Caucasian Albania. Armenian historian Movses Kaghankatvatsi calls him "restorer of the Kingdom of Albania". Later he annexed parts of Kakheti and adopted the title of "King of the Tsanars". John had good relations towards the representatives of the Sallaried Dynasty and with David III Kuropalates of Tao. Like his father and his grandmother Queen Dinar, he contributed a lot to the conversion of his kingdom. He died in 959 without an heir.

The area then was contested between the ruler of Kakheti, David (c. 976–1010), and the Georgian king Bagrat III who sought to bring all Georgian lands into a single monarchy. The next Kakhetian ruler, already titled as the king, Kvirike III the Great (1010–1037) finally absorbed Hereti into his Kingdom of Kakheti-Hereti in the 1020s. When the Georgian king David the Builder brought the kingdom under his control in 1104, Hereti became a saeristavo (i.e. a duchy) within the Georgian realm. Georgian rule of Hereti was interrupted by Atabegs of Azerbaijan, Khwarezmid Empire and Ilkhanid rule. After the final disintegration of the unified Georgian monarchy in 1466, Hereti came under the Kakhetian crown. Afterwards, the name of the province itself has gradually disappeared from the historic records and public usage due to successively Kara Koyunlu, Aq Qoyunlu, Safavid, Afsharid, and Ottoman rules.

Literature

 * Papuashvili, T. Problems of Heretian history. Tbilisi, 1970.
 * Papuashvili, T. Kingdom of the Rans and Kakhs. Tbilisi, 1982.

title: Kingdom of Hereti


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. Ajith Kumar

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. Joyous 16:35, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)

J. Ajith Kumar
Vanity. Inter\Echo 13:33, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not notable. Possible vanity. Also copyvio from . utcursch | talk 13:38, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - looks like vanity/self-promotion to me -- Cyrius|✎ 00:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, vanity. Megan1967 04:02, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not encyclopedic, notability not established. -- Brhaspati (talk, contribs) 05:40, 2005 Mar 2 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
David Turashvili

David "Dato" Turashvili (დავით (დათო) ტურაშვილი) (born May 10, 1966 in Tbilisi) is a Georgian fiction writer.

Biography
In 1989, Turashvili was one of the leaders of the student protest action taking place at the Davidgareja monasteries in eastern Georgia, whose territory was exploited by the Soviet Union military as a training ground. His first novels, published in 1988, are based on the turmoil of those events. The premier of his play Jeans Generation was held in May 2001. Turashvili's other publications include the travelogues Known and Unknown America (1993) and Kathmandu (1998), and two collections of short fiction and movie scripts; his first collection of short fiction is Merani (1991).

Besides scripts, Turashvili writes novels, short stories and plays, including 16 books in Georgia. His works have been translated into seven languages and published in periodicals of various countries. His novel Flight from the USSR has been published in five European countries. He is the author of Georgian best-sellers and has participated in Mountaineers' expedition in the mountains of the Caucasus, Andes and Himalayas. Furthermore, he is the author of scientific-research letters in literary criticism and historiography. He has translated both prosaic and poetic texts from Russian, English, Spanish, and Turkish.

Plays

 * One Fine Day (1991), Kutaisi Drama Theatre
 * Dialogues in Train (1993), Rustaveli Theatre
 * Troubadour (1997), Manhattan Theatrical Studio and Tkibuli Public Theatre
 * Jeans Generation (2001), Free Theatre
 * Green Horizon (2003), Free Theatre
 * Two Islands in the Black Sea (2005), Bolnisi Theatre
 * Tomorrow they will fly above our Garden (2007), “Come and See” Theatre
 * Border Line (2008), Marjanishvili Theatre
 * Black Sneakers (2009), Free Theatre
 * Euro-Georgia (2011), Marjanishvili Theatre
 * While Waiting for Dodo (2012), Akhaltsikhe Theatre
 * While Waiting for Dodo (2013), Marjanishvili Theatre

Translations

 * Jeans Generation, Translated into Dutch by Ingrid Dekhrave, publishing house Cossee (2013)
 * Jeans Generation, translated into Croatian, publishing house Sandorf (2013)
 * Jeans Generation, translated into Italian by Ketevan Charkviani, Publishing house Palombi Editori (2013)
 * Jeans Generation, translated into Turkish by Fahrettin Çiloğlu, Publishing house Ezgi Kitabevi (2012)
 * Jeans Generation, translated into Armenian by Esmeralda Yeritsyan, Publishing house Antares [Անտարես] (2014)

Awards

 * Literary Award “Saba” in the nomination for “The Best Novel” - Black Sneakers (2008)

title: David Turashvili


text:
Nasal irrigation

Nasal irrigation (also called nasal lavage, nasal toilet, or nasal douche) is a personal hygiene practice in which the nasal cavity is washed to flush out mucus and debris from the nose and sinuses, in order to enhance nasal breathing. Nasal irrigation can also refer to the use of saline nasal spray or nebulizers to moisten the mucous membranes.

Medical uses

Nasal irrigation can be an effective therapy to relieve symptoms of acute sinusitis caused by upper respiratory tract infections such as the common cold. The evidence for effectiveness in relieving chronic sinusitis is weak.

It can also be useful for the temporary relief of the symptoms associated with allergic rhinitis.

Adverse effects
Adverse effects include nasal irritation, nosebleeds, headache, and drainage after the irrigation is done. It is generally well tolerated.

There is a risk of infection if the water is not sterile or the device is not cleaned after use. If the device is used improperly this can be harmful. In fact, proper application suggests the use of boiled water or saline water. In 2018, a patient was reported to have contracted Balamuthia mandrillaris after one month of using tap water filtered through a Brita water purifier for nasal irrigation.

Rare cases of fatal naegleriasis have occurred due to nasal insufflation of the amoeba Naegleria fowleri (the "brain-eating amoeba") from untreated tap water. Two people died from Naegleria fowleri infections tied to using neti pots containing tap water in 2011. A Louisiana man died from the same amoeba in 2013.

Mechanism of action
Flushing the nasal cavity can soothe inflamed tissue and remove irritants like allergens; it may help clear mucus.

Typical use involves the pouring or pumping of saline water through one nostril and letting it drain from the other.

Solutions
The water should not be tap water, which may contain small amounts of bacteria that are safe to drink but may be dangerous in the nose. The water should be sterile or filtered for micro-organisms; if tap water is used it should be boiled and cooled. Saline solution is also sometimes used.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has a fact sheet recommending one of four methods to make the water safe:
 * 1) Boil: Use water that has been previously boiled for 1 minute and left to cool. At elevations above 6,500 feet, boil for 3 minutes.
 * 2) Filter: Use a filter designed to remove some water-loving germs. The label may read "NSF 53" or "NSF 58". Filter labels that read "absolute pore size of 1 micron or smaller" are also effective.
 * 3) Buy: Use water with a label specifying that it contains distilled or sterile water.
 * 4) Disinfect: Learn how to disinfect your water to ensure it is safe from Naegleria. Chlorine bleach used at the right level and time will work as a disinfectant against this germ.

A number of other compounds may be included in irrigation fluids such as the steroid budesonide in an effort to treat chronic rhinosinusitis.

Devices
Neti pots are commonly used and rely on gravity and head position in order to rinse the outer sinus cavities. Typically they have a spout attached near the bottom, sometimes with a handle on the opposite side.

Various squeeze bottles for nasal irrigation have also been used to apply the water.

Bulb syringes are commonly used for infants and children.

There are also irrigation machines available that utilize electric motor-driven pumps.

History
The earliest record of nasal irrigation is found in the ancient Hindu practice of Indian Ayurveda whose roots are traced to the Vedas. It was customary to perform jala-neti daily, as part of soucha (personal hygiene according to scriptures). Jala neti, which means to cleanse the nose with water, is an old yogic technique from India. The container used to administer the saline is called a "neti pot". This process removes mucus and dirt and clears the nose. A second neti technique known as sutra neti uses a piece of string instead of water.

title: Nasal irrigation


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Larry the Lobster

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. Joyous 16:36, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)

Larry the Lobster
Nonsense, however amusing joke

This article is amusing, but the author seems to have created an article about a non-existant lobster for the fun of it.

 * Delete - DNAOBJ njaard 13:34, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, meet Danny the Delete. Btw Userfying may be nice. Radiant! 15:14, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * Larry the Lobster can't quite be "in action" in that photograph. Live lobsters are black or brown. They only turn red when cooked, and they can't do much after that.   — J I P | Talk 16:53, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * DeleteLukeSurl 20:34, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to SpongeBob Squarepants. There's a minor character by that same name on that show.  Pass the drawn butter, please. - Lucky 6.9 20:37, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Alternately you could redirect to Saturday Night Live. Larry the Lobster's fate (boil him or save him) was decided by viewers in 1982, but until someone writes up a lengthy article on this particular lobster and the Kaufmanesque debacle, I vote Delete. Spatch 02:06, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Awww, it's so cute! Delete. --BD2412 23:58, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Examining his previous user contributions, I suspect that the author of this article wrote it so we would move it into BJAODN. However, I abstain from that thought. Zzyzx11 06:28, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Adorable. Delete.  Nice pic, though; pity it's untagged and probably a CV. —Korath (Talk)
 * Keep--69.140.94.88 00:55, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Trolling. Gamaliel 18:21, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete This artical is a POS, cute but still a Pos answers4u

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
User talk:Achaeus

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Here are some links I thought useful:

 * Tutorial
 * Help desk
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 * Policy Library
 * Utilities
 * Cite your sources
 * Verifiability
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Feel free to contact me personally with any questions you might have. About, Help desk, and Village pump are also a place to go for answers to general questions. To read up on the latest wikinews, have a look at the Wikipedia Signpost.

You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

(Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:34, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Achaeus


text:
Bishops and Clerks

The Bishops and Clerks are a group of rocks and islets, approximately 1+1/2 mi west of Ramsey Island, Pembrokeshire, Wales.

Origins of the name
There was a local tradition that the name arose from the sixteenth century wreck of a fleet of merchant ships from which there were only three survivors: Miles Bishop, James Clerk and Henry Clerk. However, this derivation is now thought to be unlikely and that the name probably comes from there being a larger island surrounded by smaller islands. Similar names are used for islands in the Isles of Scilly and for the Bishop and Clerk Islets in the southwestern Pacific Ocean.

The islands are named as the Bisshoppis and his clerkis in the manuscript Sailing Directions for the Circumnavigation of England which dates from the middle fifteenth century or earlier. They are named The bisshop and his clarkes in a 1578 map of Pembrokeshire by Christopher Saxton.

An ecclesiastical link is supported by the Pembrokeshire antiquarian George Owen:

Geography
There are four distinct groups of islets. From the north these are:

 * North Bishop (44 metres, 144 feet)
 * Carreg Rhoson (44 metres, 144 feet)
 * Carreg Rhoson E Island (30 metres, 98 feet)
 * Maen Rhoson
 * Daufraich
 * Maen Daufraich
 * Moelyn
 * Cribog
 * Emsger or South Bishop (37 metres, 121 feet)

In addition, the three small wave-washed rocks of Carreg-trai, Llechau-isaf and Llechau-uchaf sit in the waters between the Bishops and Clerks and Ramsey Island and the Welsh mainland.

Lighthouse
The islands and their neighbouring rocks are dangerous to shipping, and about thirteen shipwrecks are recorded in the waters immediately surrounding the islands, notably North Bishop. The South Bishop Lighthouse was built on Emsger (South Bishop) in 1939.

Geology
The two northerly islet groups are formed from gabbro, a hard-wearing rock of igneous origin whilst those of the Daufraich group to their south (and indeed Llechau-isaf) are formed from microtonalite, another intrusive igneous rock. The most southerly, Emsger is formed from rhyolite. All these are of probable lower Palaeozoic origin. Llechau-uchaf is formed from the late Cambrian 'Lingula Flags' whilst Carreg-trai is formed from Ordovician acid tuffs of the Llanrian Volcanic Formation. The submarine geology between the main groups is formed by sandstones and mudstones of Cambro-Ordovician age, though the bedrock is partly covered by sand and gravel.

title: Bishops and Clerks


text:
Kauguri, Jūrmala

Kauguri is a neighbourhood of Jūrmala city, Latvia.

title: Kauguri, Jūrmala


text:
Talk:Nathan Kline Institute for Psychiatric Research

from Vfd
On 17 Feb 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Votes for deletion/Nathan Kline Institute for Psychiatric Research for a record of the discussion.


text:
Ann Collins

Ann Collins, also known as Ann Collins Evans (April 29, 1916 – January 6, 1999), was an American artist of thoroughbred racehorses.

Personal life
Ann Collins was born in Lyons, New York. Her father went to Colorado for his health and worked for a timber operations as an overseer soon after she was born. She lived with her parents, Cornelius and Lisetta, and older sister, Ellen. She grew up in a remote area of Colorado where buffalo ran wild on the 25 mile tract of land. At four years of age was given a pony. She was breaking in colts and riding any horse on the tract by the time she was eight years old. She began drawing ponies as a young girl and at the age of 14 went to school at Mount St. Scholastica Academy, a Benedictine convent in Cañon City, Colorado. Her father's health improved and the family returned to Lyons. In 1934, she graduated from Lyons Central School. She studied art at Syracuse University. Her professors encouraged her to pursue oil painting and two years later had her first exhibit on the lawn of the Saratoga gambling casino, Piping Rock, which her father ran with Red Dywer. Col. E.R. Bradley, owner of four Kentucky Derby winners, bought one of her paintings there and launched her career.

She married Laramie Evans with whom she had a daughter, Larry Ann Evans. She lived in many places during her life and returned to Lyons, New York in 1975, where she died in 1999.

Career
Collins began painting thoroughbred racehorses in the 1930s. In 1941, she won first prize for Bronco at the Finger Lakes exhibition in northern New York. She became interested in painting racing colts in Florida at Hialeah and at Oriental Park in Havana. Collins held an exhibition in 1941 at Saratoga, New York, and sold paintings to Al Sabath and Col. E. R. Bradley. She then painted Alsab, who won the Narragansett in the fall of 1942, for Sabath. To complete a painting, she researched the horse, visited its stable, and sketched the horse and any distinctive marks. Collins used vivid colors and illustrated the effects of sun and wind in her works. It took about a month to complete her realistic paintings that captured the horses personalities. In the early 1940s she worked in her Lyons, New York studio. Collins was hired by trainers, breeders and racehorse owners. The more than 75 racehorses that she painted through the 1980s include:
 * Citation, commissioned by Nat Herzfeld former President of Tropical Park Race Course
 * Chrysler II and By Jimminy for Walter P. Chrysler
 * Dom Bingo for Bing Crosby
 * Tom Fool for Jock Whitney
 * Discovery and Bed O' Roses for Alfred Gwynne Vanderbilt Jr.
 * Rouge Dragon, which is in The National Museum of Racing collection in Saratoga Springs, New York.
 * Quadrangle for Paul Mellon
 * Alsab and Whirlaway in a famous match race, commissioned by Narangasett Park
 * Jabneh and Belle Soueur for Louisa Carpenter

title: Ann Collins


text:
Talk:Coed

I dont think that coed should redirect to coeducation, as long as there is no explenation for coed a refernce to coeducation should be sufficient.

I agree with the above, searching the word coed took me directly to coeducation which made me believe there was something wrong with the search. 2006-10-25

title: Talk:Coed


text:
John Tornike

John Tornike (იოანე თორნიკე; Ιωάννης Τορνίκιος), also known as Tornike Eristavi (თორნიკე ერისთავი; died in 985) was a retired Georgian general and monk who came to be better known as a founder of the formerly Georgian Orthodox Iviron Monastery on Mount Athos in modern-day northeastern Greece.

Life
Tornike came from a notable Georgian noble family and was in the immediate circles of the ruling dynasty of the Bagrationi. His father, Chordvaneli, had been in the suite of the Georgian prince Ashot II Kuropalates who had paid a visit to the Byzantine emperor Constantine Porphyrogennetos in Constantinople in c. 950. Three of his nephews had military careers and one of them, Varazvache, held a post of katepano (military governor) of the significant Byzantine eastern outpost Edessa in 1037–8.

Tornike served a very successful military and court career (specifically he was eristavi, a Georgian equivalent to strategos) under the Georgian Bagratid dynasty and also gained the Byzantine title of patrikios. He resigned his position as a general of the Georgian prince David III of Tao in c. 963 and, under the name of Ioane (Ioannis, or John), retired to Athanasius’ Lavra on Mount Athos. He was joined, in the early 970s, by another retired Georgian officer Ioane and his son Ek'vt'ime.

In 976, a rebellion led by Bardas Skleros broke out in the Asian provinces of the Byzantine Empire, the greatest upheaval of the emperor Basil II’s early reign. Skleros had won a series of battles against the then-loyal general Bardas Phokas and marched from the east through Anatolia to Constantinople. Basil summoned John-Tornike to his capital to mediate the alliance with David III of Tao, a measure that seemed to be necessary to save the situation. The monk agreed reluctantly, persuaded chiefly by his fellow monks that it would be in the best interests of the Athonite community for him to obey the imperial command. David responded vigorously and entrusted his former general the command of some 12,000 Georgian cavalrymen sent to reinforce the imperial army. The decisive battle was fought at Pankalia near Caesarea on March 24, 979 and resulted in the crushing defeat of the rebels.

Founding of Iviron monastery
In reward for their support, David was awarded with the lifetime stewardship of the extensive lands in northeastern Anatolia, while John-Tornike was conferred with the title synkellos (assistant to the patriarch of Constantinople). More importantly, the victorious monk-general returned to Athos laden with the spoils of war, "precious objects" as well as twelve kentenaria (1,200 lb) of gold, that enabled the Georgians to establish their own house on Athos, called Iviron. Although populated now with Greeks, the monastery is to this day known by the Greek appellation Iviron, "of the Iberians", i.e., Georgians. The emperor also showered him with lands and privileges, granted him subsidies and exemption from taxes. The new monastic house, destined to become a vibrant center of the Georgian Orthodox culture, was jointly run by John-Tornike as ktetor (founder) and his friend John the Iberian as hegoumenos (abbot).

title: John Tornike


text:
Evgeni Gegechkori

Evgeni Gegechkori (ევგენი გეგეჭკორი) (20 January 1881, in Martvili – 5 June 1954, in Paris) was a Georgian nobleman, politician, and Social Democratic revolutionary.

Born of a noble family, he entered the Social Democratic student movement in 1903 during his studies at the Imperial Moscow University and soon joined the Menshevik wing of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party. He was involved in the 1905 revolution in Georgia and was elected a member to the Third State Duma for the Kutais Governorate from 1907 to 1912. During the February Revolution in 1917, Gegechkori became commissar for the Russian Provisional Government in western Georgia. From 28 November 1917 to 26 March 1918 he chaired the Transcaucasian Commissariat and served as minister of labor before leading the Transcaucasian Sejm and becoming its minister of war. After the establishment of the Democratic Republic of Georgia in May 1918, he became its Minister of Foreign Affairs. In 1921, he briefly served as a Minister of Justice. After the Red Army invasion of Georgia, Gegechkori left for France in March 1921. From 1953 until his death, he headed the Georgian government in exile.

title: Evgeni Gegechkori


text:
Nino Dadeshkeliani

Nino Dadeshkeliani (June 17, 1890 – 1931), a Georgian author, was the daughter of General Prince Alexander Dadeshkeliani and Princess Eristavi. Her father, an inspector of State Forests, was assassinated in 1909.

During World War I, Dadeshkeliani joined the Russian Army, and served with the 4th Tartar Regiment. She drove an ambulance on the Austrian front before being wounded in 1916.

After the war, Dadeshkeliani lived in Georgia and served in the Constituent Assembly of the Democratic Republic of Georgia. However, when Soviet Russia took control of the country in March 1921, the family moved to Paris. An account of Dadeshkeliani's wartime experiences, Princess in Uniform, was published in 1934.

title: Nino Dadeshkeliani


text: User talk:196.25.255.242

title: User talk:196.25.255.242


text:
User talk:Conch Shell

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Here are some links I thought useful:

 * Tutorial
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Feel free to contact me personally with any questions you might have. About, Help desk, and Village pump are also a place to go for answers to general questions. To read up on the latest wikinews, have a look at the Wikipedia Signpost.

You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

(Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:44, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

IMDB links
Please don't link individual titles to IMDB, but link to a wikipedia article. Like on Winona Ryder.

Keep IMDB links to the WP article about the movie. Cburnett 18:41, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * sorry but this time I made sure I only replaced the brown links that weren't working, I just thought they'd be better than the 'This page does not exist yet message'. Just out of interest is there any particular reason why people shouldn't do this?

 * NOTE: please sign your posts with ~

 * External links should be used sparingly; the primary means to link is the standard wiki link. IMDB links should only be on the articles about them.

 * If you link something externally to replace a red link, then if the article is created later then the link still links externally. External links are substitutions for internal links when an article doesn't exist.  It's also possible to determine how many articles link to a non-existant article. Cburnett 19:17, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Gospel and its precursors
Thanks for the contribution. I hope we can develop this subject further. — Italo Svevo 19:03, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I did a Google search and found quite a lot of material on the matter but I kept the section to a minimum as it's a controversial topic and I didn't want to violate the Wikipedia NPOV. Hopefully people who know more about the subject than me will be able to expand it. Conch Shell 14:34, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Image:Winona ryder.jpg
Thanks for uploading this picture. However, would you please add the source (URL where you got the image from) to the image description page? Thank you. Lupo 10:02, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

RE: Shahak Worshiping Allegations

 * I would very much appreciate if you could enlighten me as to your motives.

Denis Diderot 16:32, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The idea of an encyclopedia is to provide information in an objective format. Jayjg has included links to Werner Cohn's webpage from the Israel Shahak page and the Jewish History, Jewish Religion page. Werner Cohn's webpage contains a misleading copyedit. People should be made aware of this or the link should be removed, otherwise Wikipedia is being used to promote a non-NPOV Conch Shell 08:33, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Image:Tatra-t97-small.JPG
Hi, where do this photo come from? Who has decided it is public domain? Regards, Thuresson 18:38, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I found the photo by doing a Google image search for "Tatra T97". I've just tried to find the exact photo again but I can't so I've changed its copyright tag to "Fairold" which is probably more acceptable.
 * Conch Shell 08:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Image:Winona ryder.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Winona ryder.jpg, has been listed at. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in its not being deleted. Thank you. —MetsBot 19:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC) Thuresson 01:38, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Same material twice: Israel Shahak
Hi, I´m sending a note to you as I see you have edited Israel Shahak and his book Jewish History, Jewish Religion. My question is: why is there partly exactly the same text in both articles? About 1/3 of the Jewish History, Jewish Religion is also in Israel Shahak. And; NB: it is the critical part. Now, this suprises me, as I have met some of the same editors on other articles relating to Israel/Palestine, and then the argument has been that the same info. should not be in two places. (I guess I should inform you: the info. was critical of Israel). Why not remove "one copy": say: rm everything except the ADL statement/link from Shahak-page, and vice verca on the book-page? Huldra 03:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree that the duplication is messy. I created the Jewish History, Jewish Religion page and Jayjg added the same criticisms to it as the ones on the Israel Shahak page.  I then countered these on both pages.  You're quite welcome to clean-up these pages (that's what Wikipedia is all about!) but please could you maintain their balance?  Thanks. Conch Shell 08:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I have blocked out (in the manner outlined above) inf. given twice. There is still one sentence left (given twice): that is the sentence about "fabricating incidents" etc. I´ll have to check the ref. more to know where (in which article) to block that sentence. I´m not sure if I understand your "maintain their balance"? Between the two articles?  Huldra 16:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
 * By "maintain their balance" I meant between those who argue that Shahak's views are anti-Semitic and those who argue they aren't. Unfortunately this is lost by removing one set of arguments from the page.  I'll see if I can reword these so the text isn't identical on both. Conch Shell 08:32, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Classic Rock
Hello. I was wondering if you would like to participate in my classic rock survey. I'm trying to find the most like classic rock song. There is more information on my user page. Hope you participate! 02:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Done Conch Shell 09:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Terrorism and Baroukh Goldshteyn (its Hebrew and Yiddish, why not spell it like that?)
I have read and re-read what Wikipedia considers as terrorism and cannot find the obvious evidence you seem to find in order to classify Goldshteyn as a terrorist. In fact, you were debating days ago on the very fact that according to you any statement on his motive is an unauthorative claim. Now you are the one claiming you know his motive. Clearly, Goldshteyn does not fit properly into what Wikipedia calls a terrorist. Now with your own POV, it may well fit but that is not the point that Wikipedia should make. Concerning "his government", Israel spoke clearly of Nathan Zaeda as a terrorist (through the clumsy statement of Sharon) but never did officially concerning Goldshteyn (only some spokespeople of denominations of Judaism). What do you know really of the whole subject? You read hebrew? Where you in Israel when all this happened? ... You may have to take this to arbitration. hasofer 22:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Let us hope that this nonsense is over, thanks to Aiden. No arbitration then? hasofer 00:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Not even... Is Zero0000 a friend of yours? hasofer 03:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Conch Shell 11:03, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) This is the English language version of Wikipedia so I've used the English spelling of Goldstein's name.
 * 2) The Israeli government demolished a shrine at Goldstein's tomb under a law forbidding the erection of monuments to terrorists.  They therefore consider him to be one.
 * 3) Wikipedia discourages the use of the word 'terrorist' but they have a terrorists category.  Perhaps it's best if the category is just removed?

Regarding your question, like many categories it's a hopelessly POV mess. For every Baruch Goldstein you'd like to add, there are many who would equally like to add Yasser Arafat, George W. Bush, Fidel Castro, etc. Ideally a more objective definition could be use; the sub-category "People convicted of terrorism" is a good start. Jayjg (talk) 21:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Translating Göring
Hello. I was interested in your Göring article, and indeed was not aware of the infamous Nazi's brother. I would like to translate this page for the French Wikipédia. However I am new here on Wiki, so I am not sure: is it OK to simply translate a page from one language to another? Thanks for the info. Syrius 17:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I assume it is, you rewritting the page in French would be no different from me rewritting information from the original sources in my own words. However it might be best to check with an administrator (eg Sam Spade) first. Conch Shell 10:18, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

OK. Thanks a lot for the quick response. All the best. Syrius 08:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:47828.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:47828.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
 * Image use policy
 * Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. 11:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Favorite Songs
My survey has changed. I am now continuing my mission for the best songs, but now I am accepting all genres. I'm giving you a chance to revote for your top ten favorite songs of any genres (not just classic rock which is still the best). I've made a executive decision to keep the existing survey results and just add on to that with the new entries. My feeling for doing this is because classic rock is the most influential genre in music currently so it should be expressed more in the survey. Thank you for contributing in the past, and hopefully in the future. ROCK ON. RENTASTRAWBERRY  FOR LET?   röck  03:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

In danger of 3RR violation on Israel Shahak
Hello Conch Shell, I should notify you that you are in danger if violating the 3RR rule on Israel Shahak, if you revert again you could be blocked from editing wikipedia.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks - so are you. Conch Shell 08:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Your complaint about User:Jayjg
I've removed your complaint about Jayjg from User talk:Jimbo Wales because you don't seem to have made any meaningful attempt to Resolving disputes|resolve this dispute. . Please give that a go before complaining to Jimbo, who I'm sure you realise is very, very busy and cannot intervene in all disputes. --Tony Sidaway 18:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Unspecified source for Image:47828.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:47828.jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be a justification explaining why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the file also doesn't have a copyright tag, then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the GFDL-self tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Fair use, use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following [ this link]. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Jkelly 21:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Israel Shahak
Conch Shell,

Helping hands are always needed in Wikipedia. Your assistance in the Israel Shahak article would be much appreciated. :) Itayb 22:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Unspecified source for Image:Tatra-t97.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Tatra-t97.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, then you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, then their copyright should also be acknowledged.

As well as adding the source, please add a proper copyright licensing tag if the file doesn't have one already. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the GFDL-self-no-disclaimers tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Fair use, use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following [ this link]. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the image is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Fair use) then the image will be deleted 48 hours after 03:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. —Bkell (talk) 03:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:Albertgoering.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:Albertgoering.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 15:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:Epenstein.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:Epenstein.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 15:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Non-free use disputed for Image:Shahak.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Shahak.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read carefully the instructions at Non-free content and then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our Criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 03:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Non-free use disputed for Image:Tatra-t97-small.JPG
Thanks for uploading Image:Tatra-t97-small.JPG. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read carefully the instructions at Non-free content and then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our Criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Conch Shell