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Gender Trouble

Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity is a book by the post-structuralist gender theorist and philosopher Judith Butler in which the author argues that gender is performative, meaning that it is maintained, created or perpetuated by iterative repetitions when speaking and interacting with each other.

Summary
Butler criticizes one of the central assumptions of feminist theory, that there exists an identity and a subject that requires representation in politics and language. For Butler, "men" and "women" are categories complicated by factors such as class, ethnicity, and sexuality. Moreover, the universality presumed by these terms parallels the assumed universality of the patriarchy and erases the particularity of oppression in distinct times and places. Butler thus eschews identity politics in favor of a new, coalitional feminism that critiques the basis of identity and gender. They challenge assumptions about the distinction often made between sex and gender, according to which sex is biological while gender is culturally constructed. Butler argues that this false distinction introduces a split into the supposedly unified subject of feminism. Sexed bodies cannot signify without gender, and the apparent existence of sex prior to discourse and cultural imposition is only an effect of the functioning of gender. Sex and gender are both constructed.

Examining the work of the philosophers Simone de Beauvoir and Luce Irigaray, Butler explores the relationship between power and categories of sex and gender. For de Beauvoir, women constitute a lack against which men establish their identity; for Irigaray, this dialectic belongs to a "signifying economy" that excludes the representation of women altogether because it employs phallocentric language. Both assume that there exists a female "self-identical being" in need of representation, and their arguments hide the impossibility of "being" a gender at all. Butler argues instead that gender is performative: no identity exists behind the acts that supposedly "express" gender, and these acts constitute, rather than express, the illusion of the stable gender identity. If the appearance of “being” a gender is thus an effect of culturally influenced acts, then there exists no solid, universal gender: constituted through the practice of performance, the gender "woman" (like the gender "man") remains contingent and open to interpretation and "resignification". In this way, Butler provides an opening for subversive action. They call for people to trouble the categories of gender through performance.

Discussing the patriarchy, Butler notes that feminists have frequently made recourse to the supposed pre-patriarchal state of culture as a model upon which to base a new, non-oppressive society. For this reason, accounts of the original transformation of sex into gender by means of the incest taboo have proven particularly useful to feminists. Butler revisits three of the most popular: the anthropologist Claude Lévi-Strauss's anthropological structuralism, in which the incest taboo necessitates a kinship structure governed by the exchange of women; Joan Riviere's psychoanalytic description of "womanliness as a masquerade" that hides masculine identification and therefore also conceals a desire for another woman; and Sigmund Freud's psychoanalytic explanation of mourning and melancholia, in which loss prompts the ego to incorporate attributes of the lost loved one, in which cathexis becomes identification.

Butler extends these accounts of gender identification in order to emphasize the productive or performative aspects of gender. With Lévi-Strauss, they suggest that incest is "a pervasive cultural fantasy" and that the presence of the taboo generates these desires; with Riviere, they state that mimicry and masquerade form the "essence" of gender; with Freud, they assert that "gender identification is a kind of melancholia in which the sex of the prohibited object is internalized as a prohibition", and therefore that "same-sexed gender identification" depends on an unresolved (but simultaneously forgotten) homosexual cathexis (with the father, not the mother, of the Oedipal myth). For Butler, "heterosexual melancholy is culturally instituted as the price of stable gender identities", and for heterosexuality to remain stable, it demands the notion of homosexuality, which remains prohibited but necessarily within the bounds of culture. Finally, they point again to the productivity of the incest taboo, a law which generates and regulates approved heterosexuality and subversive homosexuality, neither of which exists before the law.

In response to the work of the psychoanalyst Jacques Lacan that posited a paternal Symbolic order and a repression of the "feminine" required for language and culture, Julia Kristeva added women back into the narrative by claiming that poetic language—the "semiotic"—was a surfacing of the maternal body in writing, uncontrolled by the paternal logos. For Kristeva, poetic writing and maternity are the sole culturally permissible ways for women to return to the maternal body that bore them, and female homosexuality is an impossibility, a near psychosis. Butler criticizes Kristeva, claiming that her insistence on a "maternal" that precedes culture and on poetry as a return to the maternal body is essentialist: "Kristeva conceptualizes this maternal instinct as having an ontological status prior to the paternal law, but she fails to consider the way in which that very law might well be the cause of the very desire it is said to repress.". Butler argues the notion of "maternity" as the long-lost haven for females is a social construction, and invokes Michel Foucault's arguments in The History of Sexuality (1976) to posit that the notion that maternity precedes or defines women is itself a product of discourse.

Butler dismantles part of Foucault's critical introduction to the journals he published of Herculine Barbin, an intersex person who lived in France during the 19th century and eventually committed suicide when she was forced to live as a man by the authorities. In his introduction to the journals, Foucault writes of Barbin's early days, when she was able to live her gender or "sex" as she saw fit as a "happy limbo of nonidentity." Butler accuses Foucault of romanticism, claiming that his proclamation of a blissful identity "prior" to cultural inscription contradicts his work in The History of Sexuality, in which he posits that the idea of a "real" or "true" or "originary" sexual identity is an illusion, in other words that "sex" is not the solution to the repressive system of power but part of that system itself. Butler instead places Barbin's early days not in a "happy limbo" but along a larger trajectory, always part of a larger network of social control. They suggest finally that Foucault's surprising deviation from his ideas on repression in the introduction might be a sort of "confessional moment", or vindication of Foucault's own homosexuality of which he rarely spoke and on which he permitted himself only once to be interviewed.

Butler traces the feminist theorist Monique Wittig's thinking about lesbianism as the one recourse to the constructed notion of sex. The notion of "sex" is always coded as female, according to Wittig, a way to designate the non-male through an absence. Women, thus reduced to "sex", cannot escape carrying sex as a burden. Wittig argues that even naming body parts as sexual creates a fictitious limitation of what body parts can be considered erogenous, socially constructing the features themselves and fragmenting what was really once "whole". Language, repeated over time, "produces reality-effects that are eventually misperceived as 'facts'.

Butler questions the notion that "the body" itself is a natural entity that "admits no genealogy", a usual given without explanation: "How are the contours of the body clearly marked as the taken-for-granted ground or surface upon which gender signification are inscribed, a mere facticity devoid of value, prior to significance?." Building on the thinking of the anthropologist Mary Douglas, outlined in her Purity and Danger (1966), Butler claims that the boundaries of the body have been drawn to instate certain taboos about limits and possibilities of exchange. Thus the hegemonic and homophobic press has read the pollution of the body that AIDS brings about as corresponding to the pollution of the homosexual's sexual activity, in particular his crossing the forbidden bodily boundary of the perineum. In other words, Butler's claim is that "the body is itself a consequence of taboos that render that body discrete by virtue of its stable boundaries." Butler proposes the practice of drag as a way to destabilize the exteriority/interiority binary, finally to poke fun at the notion that there is an "original" gender, and to demonstrate playfully to the audience, through an exaggeration, that all gender is in fact scripted, rehearsed, and performed.

Butler attempts to construct a feminism (via the politics of jurido-discursive power) from which the gendered pronoun has been removed or not presumed to be a reasonable category. They claim that even the binary of subject/object, which forms the basic assumption for feminist practices—"we, 'women,' must become subjects and not objects"—is a hegemonic and artificial division. The notion of a subject is for them formed through repetition, through a "practice of signification." Butler offers parody (for example, the practice of drag) as a way to destabilize and make apparent the invisible assumptions about gender identity and the inhabitability of such "ontological locales" as gender. By redeploying those practices of identity and exposing as always failed the attempts to "become" one's gender, they believe that a positive, transformative politics can emerge.

Publication history
Routledge first published Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity in 1990; other Routledge publications occurred in 1999, 2006 (Routledge Classics) and 2007.

Reception
Gender Trouble was reviewed by Shane Phelan in Women & Politics. The work has enjoyed widespread popularity outside of traditional academic circles, even inspiring a fanzine, Judy!. Butler, in a preface to the second edition of the book, writes that they were surprised by the size of the book's audience and its eventual status as a founding text of queer theory. Anthony Elliott writes that with the publication of Gender Trouble, Butler established themself at the forefront of feminism, women's studies, lesbian and gay studies, and queer theory. According to Elliott, the core idea expounded in Gender Trouble, that "gender is a kind of improvised performance, a form of theatricality that constitutes a sense of identity", came to be seen as "foundational to the project of queer theory and the advancing of dissident sexual practices during the 1990s."

On November 23, 2018, the playwright Jordan Tannahill read the entirety of Gender Trouble outside the Hungarian Parliament Building in protest of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's decision to revoke accreditation and funding for gender studies programs in the country.

title: Gender Trouble


text:
User:EVILEYEZ

Hardcore Rapper EvilEyez is an underground rapper unfortunatley unknown outside the Bristol area. EvilEyez born Ahmed Salem Al-Ali 1982, lead a variously intresting lifestyle dating back to his birth in Neath Wales. His first approach to music came in the year 1996 when gangster rap music was in rife in the golden era of Hip-Hop, his peers had influenced him into the major names of Hip-Hop, such as Snoop Doggy Dogg, 2Pac and Notorious B.I.G. Ahmed had soon found his lyrical style in the form of demonic/ Horror Hop.It wasnt until he left his home of Dubai and had moved to Bristol, U.K in 1997, that he started to write his first rap songs. Having no musical experience or no background whatso ever in music, he started looking and learning how to begin his music career. He continued to write rap songs and preform infront of gangs of freinds from the Cadbury Heath and Oldland estates. In the year 1998 EvilEyez had finally established his image that he wanted, he became the rebel he wanted to be, had the freinds he wanted to have and he was ready to take on the world. 1998-1999 proved to be very rebelious years for EvilEyez as he was repeatingly hanging out with gangs and causing mayhems in shopping centers around Bristol. Although no profound success in the music industry EvilEyez continued to work on his rapping by rehearsing and preforming freestyles infront of freinds, and recording on tape recorders. The Year 2000 sparked a positive move for EvilEyez mentally and skillfully, he joined a Music Tecnology course at soundwell college in Bristol. He had learned how to record,produce, and plan his own projects. He had joined the underground movement known as the Di-Wrecktives, who were based in Bath. The alliance was brought to an early close, as there had been creative diffrences between him and DJ Mecca. He had managed to record a few verses with the Di-Wrecktives, but had to move on with his own path in the awake of September 11th. In 2002 he started to have revelations about a new government and Kingdom within the Hip-Hop Community. Tired of continuos promotion of cars, jewellery and materialistic subjects in music, he decided to create a new force that will change the course of British Hip-Hop. He went into the studio and began to work on his first step to a new revolution he had recorded his first E.P titled Ghost Townz R Real. The majority of production was done by himself until he earned the respect of fellow rapper and college freind Young Trigga of the Young Gunz, his brother had produced two super tracks for the album titled In My syndicate and Crash and Xrossover. The album wasnt put out independently but was met through good reviews which inspired him to continue the idealistic revolution he had yet not named. He proceeded to make a second album orginally titled The Final Kingdom which would be the most strongest meaning to him at a later date. He recieved production from other producers including best freind Shaun Yakoob, who produced the lead track on his second E.P, Show Down in Mega City-D. Sadly although forming a crew and mini record label to begin his quest, EvilEyez destructive and rebelious attitude had him expelled and sent to exile by his own mother had destroyed his rap career, EvilEyez was sent to the United Arab Emirates. in 2002 and has not returned to the UK since. In recent he is plotting to return and create his own revolution in the form of the I.F Revolution which will be a change of government within the Hip-Hop community. He insists that he will round up enough supporters to create his own regime in Bristol city, he hopes to rename it the Final Kingdom and the ruling power of the I.F Regime. It is rumuored he will return in 2005 to start the revolution.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:EVILEYEZ


text:
Zami: A New Spelling of My Name

Zami: A New Spelling of My Name is a 1982 biomythography by American poet Audre Lorde. It started a new genre that the author calls biomythography, which combines history, biography, and myth. In the text, Lorde writes that "Zami" is "a Carriacou name for women who work together as friends and lovers", noting that Carriacou is the Caribbean island from which her mother immigrated. The name proves fitting: Lorde begins Zami writing that she owes her power and strength to the women in her life, and much of the book is devoted to detailed portraits of other women.

Plot summary
Audre Lorde grows up in Harlem in the 1930s and 1940s, a child of Black West Indian parents. Lorde is legally blind from a very young age, isolating her even further from her surroundings and a family from which she does not receive much warmth or affection. Her two older sisters, Phyllis and Helen, are very close, but are rarely mentioned in Zami and Lorde spends little time with them. Her parents and other adults, especially her mother, discipline her harshly for insolence.

Lorde does not speak until age four, when she declares that she wants to read, and promptly follows through on this desire. She witnesses racism from a young age. The family's landlord hangs himself for having to rent his flat to Black people. When the family takes a trip to Washington, D.C., they are not allowed to eat ice cream at a lunch counter because of Jim Crow laws. Despite the rampant racism of this era that Lorde encountered in her daily life, her mother attempted to shield her from it. When white people spit at them during Lorde's childhood, her mother would disparage those low-class people for spitting into the wind.

After getting her first period at age 15, Lorde makes friends with a small number of non-Black girls at Hunter College High School, who label themselves "The Branded". She is elected literary editor of the school's arts magazine and begins writing poetry. After graduation, she leaves home and shares a flat with friends of Jean's (one of The Branded), ceasing contact with her parents and two sisters. At the same time, she also goes out with Peter, a white boy who jilts her on New Year's Eve after finding out she is pregnant. Lorde ultimately decides to get an abortion.

After some unhappy times at Hunter College, she moves to Stamford, Connecticut, to find work in a factory, where the working conditions prove atrocious. Following her father's death, she returns to New York and starts a relationship with Bea, whose heart she ends up breaking when she decides to move to Mexico to get away from McCarthyism. There, she goes to university and works as a secretary in a hospital. In Cuernavaca, she meets a lot of independent women, mostly lesbians; she has a relationship with one of them, Eudora, and works in a library. Back in New York, Lorde explores the lesbian bar scene, moves in with lover, Muriel. Another woman, Lynn, moves in with them and ends up leaving without warning and steals their savings. Finally, Lorde begins a relationship with a mother named Afrekete, who decides to leave to tend to her child. The book ends on a homage to Lorde's mother.

Characters

 * Audre Lorde, the author
 * Linda Lorde, Audre's mother. She knows patois. She prepares lunch for the Dad. Each child is asked once or twice a year which dish they would like her to prepare for dinner. The Dad keeps his distance, unless the Mom is in any way disrespected or talked back to, and then he will jump in. She is always longing for "home", the island community she emigrated from. She is able to obtain work as a cleaner, but only because she is light enough to pass as Spanish. When the employer finds out she is black, she is fired. She outlives her husband. She refuses the free milk given to poor families.
 * Phyllis and Helen, Audre's older sisters
 * The Branded, Audre's friends at high school
 * Maxine, Audre's Jewish friend at high school
 * Gennie, a.k.a. Genevieve, Audre's closest friend in high school who takes dance classes and commits suicide. The first person she consciously, truly loves.
 * Louisa, Gennie's mother
 * Philip Thompson, Gennie's father who left home early and comes back when she is 15
 * Ella, Gennie's stepmother
 * Peter, a white boy whom Audre dates in New York
 * Ginger, Audre's colleague from the factory at Stamford; Audre's first female lover. Audre later moved in with Ginger and her Mom, and paid rent for room and board.
 * Bea, Audre's lover, met in New York. Only dated each other because of the mutual fact they were gay. They were supposed to go to Mexico together, but Audre stood her up when she realized it would be a bad idea to go together. With Bea, Audre did all the work, and Bea wasn't that responsive. They commuted back and forth from Philadelphia to see each other.
 * Eudora, an older woman and Audre's lover in Mexico. She was a journalist and alcoholic. She was passionate about Mexican culture and history. She had a clothing shop with her ex in the Mexican town where they lived. She had lost a breast due to cancer.
 * Muriel, Audre's lover. Her first long-term committed relationship. Muriel moves in with Audre. Muriel has been diagnosed with schizophrenia and has undergone electroshock therapy. Audre supports Muriel financially. Ginger introduced Muriel to Audre, as Muriel held the same job at the Stamford factory before Audre did.
 * Rhea, Audre's roommate in New York after returning from Mexico. A straight white woman whose political work was jeopardized by living with a black lesbian, she leaves for Chicago in order to keep her job under the pretense of starting a new life after the demise of a relationship, but Audre does not know this at the time. Audre also lived with Rhea before going to Mexico. Rhea never has satisfying romantic relationships and wonders longingly at the love Muriel and Audre are experiencing at the beginning of their relationship.
 * Felicia, a.k.a. "Flee", a black lesbian who has a close but platonic relationship with Audre
 * Lynn, a lesbian who lives with Muriel and Audre for a while and is their mutual lover during this time
 * Toni, Audre's old acquaintance from high school, who turns out a lesbian
 * Gerri, a black lesbian from Queens. Gerri and her partner are known for their wonderful parties, which have abundant food, in contrast to the Upper West Side parties which do not have much food and are much more uptight.
 * Kitty, a.k.a. Afrekete, the last lover mentioned in the book, met through Gerri; she has a daughter and leaves abruptly back to Atlanta to visit her Mom and daughter. Lorde never sees her again, but mentions Kitty will always be part of her.

Major themes

 * Lesbianism – The book describes the way lesbians lived in New York City, Connecticut and Mexico during the 1950s through 1970s.
 * Racism – The landlord who hangs himself, the ice-cream episode in Washington, D.C., and the increased suspicion during the McCarthy era all contribute to highlight the theme of racism.
 * The mother – Lorde's difficult relationship with her mother, whom she credits for imbuing her with a certain sense of strength, pervades throughout the book.
 * McCarthyism and the Rosenbergs are also mentioned.

Critical reception
On November 5, 2019, the BBC News listed Zami: A New Spelling of My Name on its list of the 100 most influential novels.

title: Zami: A New Spelling of My Name


text:
User:Jasonzhuocn

Experience about wikipedia

 * 2004, joined Wikipedia
 * 2005-2007, administrator of Chinese Wikipedia
 * 2006, preparatory committee of Chinese Wikimedia Conference 2006
 * 2006, temporary administrator of Cantonese Wikipedia
 * 2007, founded Wikimedia Taiwan
 * 2012-present, administrator of Chinese Wikipedia
 * 2016-present, managing supervisor of Wikimedia Taiwan

Speeches and lectures

 * 2007, WikiReader for Wikimania 2007 at National Taiwan University with Koika
 * 2008, introduce for Wikipedia at Tainan National University of the Arts
 * 2008, Wikipedia and Local knowledge at National Cheng Kung University with Koika
 * 2010, Understanding Wikipedia at Government Information Office of Republic of China

zh:User:Jasonzhuocn

title: User:Jasonzhuocn


text:
Talk:Bagenalstown

Names
Muine Bheag / Muinebheag / Muinebeg / Bagenalstown.

We could do with a consolidated paragraph on the various names! (< reminder to self). -- Picapica 11:07, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Hopefully a little clearer, Irish is a language full of variation. Djegan 16:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Grma, a Djegan. Some info (from twin town Pont-Péan) which I am parking here, pending incorporation into the article:
 * In 1932 the Town Commission passed a vote, officially naming the town Muinebheag, without consulting the people. Some called it one name and others called it another name, and so it was for 43 years. In 1975 Carlow County Council held a Plebiscite so that the people of the town would decide which name it would be. The total poll turn out was only 50% and of that the majority of votes came out for Bagenalstown. But as it was a plebiscite, the majority poll required to carry would have to have been 75%. So officially the name is Bagenalstown-Muinebheag, whichever one you like.
 * En 1932, la Commission de la ville vota pour appeler la ville officiellement Muinebheag, mais sans consulter la population. Alors certains l'appelaient Muinebheag et d'autres Bagenalstown et ceci durant 43 ans. En 1975 le Conseil Départemental de Carlow déclara un plébiscite pour que la ville puisse choisir un des noms. La participation fut de 50% en faveur de Bagenalstown, la majorité devant être de 75% le nom officiel est donc Bagenalstown-Muinebheag, au désir de chacun! -- Picapica 08:47, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I have cited the name, of the town, as it appears in the Local Government Act, 2001 whilst this act does not state that the name of "Muinebheag" is the official name of the town the fact that it names it as such and that the term is more widely used or used in a more prominantly than "Bagenalstown" throughout the Irish Statute Book gives it some weight, also the town council itself uses the former term, the term "Muine Bheag" is used somewhat particularily in older orders whilst "Muinebeg" is unused. Ultimately it is somewhat an academic question, as with many Irish language terms their is a certain amount of ambiguity which is not helped by the differences between old and new Irish and their is info on my talk page regarding recent developments about name of places in Irish and the Official Languages Act. Djegan 19:04, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Name
This should probably be under Muine Bheag, rather than Muinebeag. See logainm.ie for the official name:http://www.logainm.ie/?text=muine+bheag&placeID=3405. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 00:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

OK. Sarah777 (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

--Yumegusa (talk) 21:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The article currently states: "The English name "Bagenalstown" is more commonly used, but "Muinebeag" is the official name of the town while the variation "Muine Bheag" is more commonly used, and is often used in speech as "Muinebeg"." So, 'Bagenalstown' is more commonly used, and 'Muine Bheag' is (also) more commonly used?? If someone understands the intent, perhaps they would rewrite it more intelligibly. Are there references for any of this?

Names and google

 * [[Image:Venn A subset B.svg|150px|thumb|right|B = Bagenalstown, A = Muine Bheag]]

Bagenalstown has over 40,000 hits, Muine Bheag has about 21,000. That reflects the reality - everyone still calls it Bagenalstown.86.42.240.22 (talk) 14:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If that were true surely you'd expect Bagenalstown to have 61,000 hits? Sarah777 (talk) 14:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily.... --HighKing (talk) 15:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Can't see how A is a subset of B in this case. Sarah777 (talk) 12:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I've lived in south County Kildare all my life and I have never once heard it called Muine Bheag in conversation by us natives. It's a new thing for civil servants and blow-ins. The Bagenal part is 2 syllables: Bag Nall. As I am an "irish at national school and left young" person, I looked it up and muine doesn't mean thicket - unless in an obscure very local dialect. So as well as being brand new, it is also bad Irish. Muine means manners, in my book, and I suggest that "Little manners" is a joke cooked up by some civil servant with a weird sense of humour.Red Hurley (talk) 11:34, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't in any way wish to offend Red Hurley, but I must say that his rather ludicrous and ill-informed speculations on the origins of "Muine Bheag" were most amusing. May I suggest that he should avoid this kind of thing unless he is actually familiar with the subject or has done some proper research into it? Again, none of this is said wtih intent to offend and I am sure that he has contributions of value to make on subjects which he is more knowledgeable on.

Let me present the true facts as far as I understand them. Walter Bagenal founded the town in the eighteenth century at a place known in Irish as Muine Bheag. Alongside "Bagenalstown", there persisted this Irish name with the Anglicisations of Moneybeg and even Moonbeg, which are found on some old documents. At the time of Independence in the twentieth century, English had established itself as the locality's sole vernacular speech, and Bagenalstown was established as the most common English name. The decision was nevertheless taken to officially establish the Irish name Muinebheag/Muine Bheag in both languages. The anglicisation Muinebeg is also used. All these versions are still used, although my personal impression is that Bagenalstown remains clearly most common in ordinary speech among locals. Visitors may find the multiple versions confusing, and it is what meant for example that there were established side by side in the same town the Muine Bheag Fire Station and the Bagenalstown Health Centre. In fact a plebiscite was held on the name issue in 1975 but could make no final decision due I believe to low turnout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.203.35 (talk) 13:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * ...and the low turnout was most likely because everyone called it Bagenalstown then, and still does. It's a bit like Daingean Uí Chúis / Dingle.Red Hurley (talk) 20:29, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

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Time to formally rename the article per WP:COMMONNAME
It is clear from past discussions, the inquorate plebiscite (50% voted 70+/30 to move back to Bagenalstown), and sources, Google, etc., that the common name should be Bagenalstown. It's certainly the only thing one hears locally / when visiting. And our policies are clear. Not Muine Beag, and certainly not Muinebeag, etc. Are there any real objections? SeoR (talk) 12:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

 * I'd support a move. The article is clearly misnamed. Zacwill (talk) 16:04, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

 * When I was in Kilkenny (neighbouring) some years ago it was usually referred to as Moneybeg Sarah777 (talk) 22:44, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

 * As a Carlow woman, I have to say that it will always be Bagnalstown to me! It appears that this is still the most commonly used name for this town? I know that Google hits don't tell the whole story, but I think here it is indicative. Smirkybec (talk) 20:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 16 August 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus leaning towards Bagenalstown being the common name, noting that Muine Bheag is the official name of the town is agreed upon on both sides of the votes.

Side note: TIL on endonym and exonym. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 03:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Muine Bheag → Bagenalstown – "Muine Bheag" is the name favoured by officialdom, but "Bagenalstown" is undoubtedly the WP:COMMONNAME, returning over four times as many results on Google. Going by the 1975 plebiscite, it's also the town's preferred self-designation. Zacwill (talk) 13:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Oppose - People love to reference Google hits, but if you look at Google trends (actual peoples searches, not number of pages (incl. spam?), Muine Bheag actually beats it, and that is not even including the term Muinebheag without the space. Google Trends to compare. I don't think Bagenalstown is undoubtedly the Common name. The official name would be the town's preferred self designation? Not an almost 50 year old poorly turnout poll. Since it is so close, I vote in favour of keeping it Muine Bheag. ~ Ablaze (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not a regular user so I'm not "voting" but you guys have a policy to prefer the commonly used name, and there's only one of those in this case - "Bag'nals town" is how we say it, Bagenalstown is the spelling. Maybe by coincidence, it has an element like "Beag" but the two languages have different bases. And FYI, the poll was not badly turned out - more than 50% of the population voted, more than in many major elections, referenda, etc. It's just there was a target of 75% for a binding vote. And >75% of that 50% voted for the proper name. A previous poll by one or two local newspapers had a similar outcome, 3:1 in favour of Bagenalstown. 185.114.163.227 (talk) 16:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have noticed a flaw in the cited Google Trends comparison in which the town is selected for "Muine Bheag" instead of the search term. In my comparisons (Google Trends (Bagenalstown vs Muine Bheag in Ireland since 2004)) I have made three tweaks in which I selected the search term as well as narrowing down my comparison to searches from Ireland (considering Wikipedia prefers the formal dialect of a country to be used if there are strong national ties to the topic (see Manual of Style)) and to searches since 2004 in which there appears to be a strong surge towards "Bagenalstown" over the intervening years. Tk420 (talk) 06:47, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Oppose - not least because Wikipedia sometimes refuses to use the WP:COMMONNAME for entire countries, never mind villages. Self-designation isn't the deciding factor on Wiki, as illustrated by the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who live in the country of Ireland refer to the place as simply Ireland - yet Wiki is still using a "description" instead of the name! The current article name for Mhuine Beg is the official name of the town, and is commonly used, usually in the anglicised form of "Moneybeg". Sarah777 (talk) 14:20, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What has the naming of the article for Ireland / RoI got to do with this? And anyway, while "the Republic" and "RoI" are inferior, they are used every single day by Irish government bodies, newspapers and academics, to be clear which bit of the island is referred to. And "Republic of Ireland" is enshrined in law for 70+ years. 185.114.163.227 (talk) 16:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. The state is commonly referred to as simply "Ireland" - in exactly the same way you claim that "Bagnelstown" is common usage. Except, Muine Bheag is manifestly the official name of this town, just as Ireland is manifestly the official name of this state. A bit of consistency would help here. Sarah777 (talk) 03:37, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Support - per previous discussions above, road signs, tourist literature (e.g. https://carlowtourism.com/bagenalstown-map/), the past poll (a clear if not quorate result), and multiple book references. And my own experience supports - I've heard Bagenalstown (mostly), Moneybeg (a little) and never, ever heard anyone actually call it Muine Bheag or Muinebeag - in Google, these will get hits just because of the dubious (no discussion at all of that undemocratic move) official naming. All names will remain mentioned, of course. SeoR (talk) 17:12, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I reinforce my !vote, and hope I also partly answer Asarlaí, with a check on one of Ireland's better general reliable sources, the paper of record, the Irish Times - a quick search gives 237 hits for Bagenalstown, and 12 for Muine Bheag. Now both of those numbers could be cut, taking out a few results as Gaeilge, and others, but I think this is still fairly indicative. I also note that Smirkybec has looked at substantial local sources below. SeoR (talk) 20:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The Irish Times ceased to even claim to be a "paper of record" about 15 years ago! Sarah777 (talk) 03:30, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but it is still considered so by many, and it’s anyway one of the main RS for Ireland. It’s not perfect, makes mistakes, has a property bias, etc. But anyway, its archives overwhelmingly support the Bagenalstown name. I really don’t see anything controversial in this move request, it seems obvious, and our current naming position, using an undemocratically-adopted, largely unused, official name, is not a plus for Wikipedia. It would be like having Kell under Ceannais or Navan at An Uaimh. Seriously, does anyone have a good argument for the current naming? SeoR (talk) 08:08, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Support - as per SeoR above and previous discussions. As someone from Carlow, it has always been Bagnelstown in conversation and in any histories I have read related to the area for my whole life. Smirkybec (talk) 20:32, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support, as others list above, this is the common name in use in and about the town. It is also in the title of the two volumes of local history, all the tourist information leaflets, and many local businesses. Muine Bheag has no local usage at all and not much in academia either, it's an !official invention! 93.107.40.190 (talk) 12:31, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Good on ya - Myles whats-his-name produced two detailed local history books, and they're called "Bagenalstown: A step back in time, people, churches, land, buildings, mountain, river and canal" 1 and 2, with not a "Muine" in sight. 185.114.163.227 (talk) 16:10, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Oppose - per the evidence given above by Ablaze. Wikipedia is based on verifiability. This means our own experience isn't enough, we need sources to prove it. ~Asarlaí 11:31, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What evidence from Ablaze? A Google search on its own is not verification of anything, this needs proper sources, and both primary and secondary favour Bagenalstown. Someone mentioned books, and for the rest we should look to newspapers, maps and so on. Note that the Irish-language name has been pushed officially (but not accepted in normal usage), which is a distorting factor. I'm Dublin myself, so I can't speak to deep local knowledge but editor Smirkybec above has local background and can probably point to solid local sources. On a quick check, I found:
 * From a summary of the local history book: "A chapter on Moneybeg, an area situated on the outskirts of the town, provides interesting reading and has a close association to the Irish name for the town." So it seems Moneybeg isn't even an alternative for the whole town.
 * From the official local authority tourism site: "Bagenalstown, also known as Muine Bheag in Irish" which is unequivocal as to the name in English.
 * Even the less-research-based Wikivoyage better summarises the situation than Wikipedia, which is embarrassing: "Muine Bheag, meaning "small thicket", is the official name of the town known in English as Bagenalstown." So again clear recognition that the name in English is . . . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.6.3 (talk) 16:23, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Just had a look at real sources and newspapers and local organisations and these speak to "Bagenalstown" as the English language name, with "Muine Bheag" perhaps relevant to the Irish-language Wikipedia. Even the GAA, for heavens sake, is "Bagenalstown Gaels", not to speak of the soccer club, the credit union, charities, and so on. I did not find a single "Muine Bheag" organisation yet, though I'm sure something exists. 86.44.6.3 (talk) 16:34, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm also not convinced by the evidence cited by Ablaze and Asarlaí, as mentioned and to expand a little:
 * Carlow Tourism only refers to the area as Bagenalstown. Moneybeg is the townland, not the town.
 * In local historical literature the 2016 index of the Carloviana journal lists entries under Bagenalstown with Muine Bheag listed as see Bagenalstown.
 * The local Chamber of Commerce uses Bagenalstown, and is what the local paper (The Nationalist) refers to the town as.
 * The recent local history by Myles Kavanagh is Bagenalstown, A Step Back in Time (2021). Smirkybec (talk) 18:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The local Catholic parish also uses Bagenalstown. Smirkybec (talk) 18:53, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * A few more examples that speak to local, common usage:
 * Met Eireann redirects Muine Bheag to Bagenalstown in their search function for local weather.
 * Local soccer club is Bagenalstown AFC and also the Cricket Club.
 * Property listing site Daft uses Bagenalstown and doesn't recognise Muine Bheag at all. Smirkybec (talk) 20:38, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment on my evidence. The actual reason given under the request for move was: returning over four times as many results on Google, yet when I respond to results vs. trends it was dismissed as not a proper souce, yet the the original request is fine? ~ Ablaze (talk) 11:24, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You can support a nomination while not thinking much of the rationale offered. Scolaire (talk) 15:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, the GAA may use Bagenalstown but the camogie club goes by Muinebheag. Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:35, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Support per the sources provided by SeoR and Smirkybec. Scolaire (talk) 15:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Oppose - According to Carlow county council the official name does appear to be Muinebheag, and that is the name used by other state agencies such as Gardai, Iarnród Éireann and Dept. of Social Protection. On streetview the approach to the town the nameplate is bilingual, with the sign for town twinning uses only Muinebheag
 * Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:28, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * On a point of policy, we do not rely on official naming as a default - the rule is "what is most commonly in use". That Muine Bheag is the official name is not in dispute, and the dubious origin of that naming is explained above, and official bodies have had to use it, but it never changed what people en masse actually called the town. As an aside, we could also look to other encyclopedias, but this small town did not make Britanica, for example (and then again, Britanica has County Laois as Laoighis, so it might not be fully solid on these matters). I find Smirkybec's points re. local bodies, Met Eireann and even DAFT quite convincing. SeoR (talk) 19:47, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The streetview check is a useful one, and if you go a little further back, all the signs on motorway and major road exits, and at Leighlinbridge, use only Bagenalstown. SeoR (talk) 19:49, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you are missing the point that WP:COMMONNAME, is happily ignored when it suits, such as in the naming of the article for this country. Maybe we could copy that example and use a disambiguation term instead of a placename for Muine Bheag?
 * If it's appropriate in the case of Ireland, where RoI is neither the most commonly used name, the official name nor the name used by most of those organisations cited above, then we have an overwhelming precedent for not sticking rigidly to a particular interpretation of WP:COMMONNAME. Sarah777 (talk) 22:17, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, and good to discuss, but I just don't see the relevance of the Ireland Naming Dispute to this small town's case; the basic "common name" rules still apply generally ("overwhelming precendent" seems a bit strong, I'd call it rather "unhappy compromise debated to death for 15+ years") - Ireland is a very special case, due to the island (millions of years old) vs country (newer but probably the more searched term) issue, and I'd rather say that it's the exception that proves the rule. I really think Bagenalstown is more aligned to Navan, Kells and Dingle, and I think the situation with those three is very clear. I ask again, does anyone have a good argument for Muine Bheag? And now back to the rating slush pile, N-Z complete, on to M. SeoR (talk) 22:29, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:COMMONNAME is not "happily ignored when it suits". However, it does need to be taken in conjunction with the other conventions governing article titles. The reason why the RoI's article isn't just called "Ireland" is because "Ireland" in itself is an ambiguous term. Per WP:NATURAL, we resolve the ambiguity by using a common alternative name. Zacwill (talk) 01:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It absolutely is ignored when it suits the majority. Anyway, I'm probably not supposed to be even discussing this under some 15-year-old suppression edict awarded on foot of some WP:GIBBERISH. So I'm out of here. Sarah777 (talk) 11:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Weak oppose.Xx78900 (talk) 20:05, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per arguments by SeoR and Smirkybec. Spleodrach (talk) 13:21, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment I have been involved in similar discussions over place names such as Aberdyfi (also known by the anglicised Aberdovey) and Bala Lake (also known by its Welsh language name Llyn Tegid) in Wales and have used the Muine Bheag article as a model, as an example of a similar issue within the English-speaking world, when editing those articles. I have also been involved in a discussion over the common name for Basel in Switzerland, which I have also used as a model, but in that case it is more about what the city is "also known as" (in this case the more common name in British English (arguably "Basle")) rather than the city's common name in the general English-speaking world which has already been established as "Basel".

Since I first contributed to those discussions, I have learned the words endonym and exonym, which I have so far not seen used in this discussion, with an endonym being the more common name used by the inhabitants of a place and an exonym being a name used by outsiders in case this is helpful to this discussion. Since then, it has occoured to me that the most common endonym for Muine Bheag/Bagenalstown could be different to the most common exonym but as I am not an expert in the local area I would like to ask if any better informed readers could shed some light on this. I would also like to point out another guideline on Wikipedia over places known by more than one name (Naming conventions (geographic names)) in case it is useful. In that guideline, there is the suggestion to try to reach a compromise but, again, as I am not an expert on the local area I am not sure what compromise there is to be had over Muine Bheag/Bagenalstown although the sources already cited appear to be in favour of "Bagenalstown" as the most common name in English.

In case anyone is still curious about name disputes around the world, I learned the terms "endonym" and "exonym" in the video Turkey CHANGES its Official Name by Geofocus on You Tube (apologies for the low source volume) which discusses countries which changed their official names in recent years. For older examples, there is Ivory Coast (with its government officially preferring the French "Côte d'Ivoire" to be used in every language since 1986) and Myanmar (officially changed from Burma in 1989 although its new name has not been recognised by the British or American governments (at least before the early 2010s democratic reforms) but official usage has not stopped the former names being commonly used in English (at least by older generations). Tk420 (talk) 11:27, 22 August 2022 (UTC)-edited
 * I have since thought of a possible compromise. If this article is moved to Bagenalstown the article about the railway station could remain titled Muine Bheag railway station to reflect usage by Iarnród Éireann including passengers' exposure to the Irish-only nameboards (although I have never visited the town, I know of the station nameboards after seeing them featured in an episode of Great British Railway Journeys, which also covers Ireland, (I think it was series 4 episode 23 (Kilkenny to Athy) about 10 minutes into the feature in which the naming issue is discussed with a local historian shortly after arrival) but this might have to be discussed separately in Talk:Muine Bheag railway station. I based this suggestion on the current de-facto compromise on Wikipedia over Aberdyfi/Aberdovey in Wales in which the Welsh Aberdyfi is generally used for the village and community and the anglicised Aberdovey is used for the the railway and lifeboat stations reflecting usage by the railway companies, including on the bilingual nameboards, and the RNLI. Tk420 (talk) 19:20, 22 August 2022 (UTC)-edited
 * Muine Bheag Railway Station (geograph 4687079).jpg
 * As of 2015, the signs in this train station follow the convention of all other Irish train station - English in bold with the Irish name in italics above. So, while it is officially known as Muine Bheag by CIE/Irish Rail, the signage shows both. Smirkybec (talk) 10:10, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * As a side note, on their website, Irish Rail actually refer to this station as Muine Bheag (Bagenalstown) which goes some way to acknowledging the common name of the town. Smirkybec (talk) 21:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Before I read your second reply above, I used the search term "Bagenalstown railway station" in a Google image search to try to find a clear photo of the current nameboards at the station and I found an image of a set of stamps on thejournal.ie with "Bagenalstown" used in the bilingual caption which could be a sign that An Post also recognises that it is commonly known as Bagenalstown. I have included the link in case it is useful. Tk420 (talk) 20:11, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have since checked An Post's article on the local post office and I found that although the headline reads "Muinebheag" the address is given as "Bagenalstown Post Office" which could be a sign that An Post officially uses Muine Bheag as the name of the town but recognises that it is commonly known as Bagenalstown. However, on the Eircode website I found the name of the town given as Muine Bheag when I searched for the post office by its Eircode although it gave the name of the business as "Bagenalstown Post Office" which is most likely how the post office is registered. The name of the town is also given as Muine Bheag, most likely reflecting the government's official usage, when I searched for the railway station by its Eircode but the map showing the location gave the name as Muine Bheag (Bagenalstown) like on Iarnród Éirann's website. Tk420 (talk) 21:14, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose The last few weeks, the national newspapers were full of "Muine Bheag" (due to the Michael Collins Memorial). Never seen the English name in those articles. The Banner  talk 13:09, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Do you have any examples? I've never heard of a connection between this town and Michael Collins? When I did a news search for Muine Bheag and sorted by date, nothing of that sort is coming up. Smirkybec (talk) 13:31, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I mixed up names and scratched my comment. The Banner  talk 16:23, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * are you thinking of Béal na Bláth? Collins doesn't have any connection with County Carlow, as far as I can tell. Smirkybec (talk) 16:00, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I mixed up names and scratched my comment. The Banner  talk 16:23, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Similarly confused, . Can you give us some links to newspaper reports of a Michael Collins Memorial in Muine Bheag? Google isn't returning any results. Scolaire (talk) 16:18, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I mixed up names and scratched my comment. The Banner  talk 16:23, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME; I don't think I've ever heard the place actually referred to as "Muine Beag" and Smirkybec and SeoR present good evidence/arguments. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:56, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bagenalstown


text:
Disappointment Islands

The Disappointment Islands (Îles du Désappointement) are a subgroup of the Tuamotu Archipelago in French Polynesia. They are located towards the northeast, away from the main Tuamotu group.

The Disappointment Islands are a small group of coral islands, which includes the island of Tepoto and the atoll of Napuka. Puka-Puka, 180 mi to their southeast, is often included in this subgroup.

These islands are arid, and are not especially conducive to human habitation.

Demographics
The Disappointment Islands are sparsely populated. The inhabitants are overwhelmingly native Polynesians. According to the 2002 census, the population of the islands is as follows:
 * Tepoto: 54
 * Napuka: 257
 * Puka-Puka: 197

Administration
Administratively Tepoto Island belongs to the commune of Napuka, while Puka-Puka has its own commune.

History
The western Disappointment Islands, Tepoto and Napuka, were colonized by voyagers from the neighboring Tuamotus, but Puka-Puka was colonized by settlers from the Marquesas Islands, several hundred kilometres to the northeast.

The first European to see these islands was Ferdinand Magellan in his 1520 expedition to the Philippines and the Spice Islands. He called them the "Unfortunate Islands" (Ilhas Desafortunadas) because his sailors could not find a water source there from which to replenish, while en route to the Philippine Islands.

Further European contact with Napuka Atoll only took place again two centuries later, in 1765, with British explorer John Byron. He named Napuka and Tepoto "Disappointment Islands" because he found the natives to be hostile toward him. The islands were also visited by the United States Exploring Expedition in 1839.

title: Disappointment Islands


text:
Database publishing

Database publishing is an area of automated media production in which specialized techniques are used to generate paginated documents from source data residing in traditional databases. Common examples are mail order catalogues, direct marketing, report generation, price lists and telephone directories. The database content can be in the form of text and pictures but can also contain metadata related to formatting and special rules that may apply to the document generation process. Database publishing can be incorporated into larger workflows as a component, where documents are created, approved, revised and released.

The basic idea is using database contents like article and price information to fill out pre-formatted template documents. Templates are typically created in a normal desktop layout application where certain boxes or text are designated as placeholders. These placeholders are then targeted with new content which flows in from the database. This allows for quick generation of final output and, in case of changes to the database, quickly perform updates, with limited or no manual intervention.

Another model of database publishing is found in many web-to-print sites where users browse templates from an online catalog (such as business cards or brochures), personalize the selected template by filling in a form and then view the rendered result. In this case the initial source of data is from user input, but it is captured in a database so that if the same user revisits the site later, they can resume editing where they left off. The form is then pre-filled from the database-stored variables the user entered before.

The main layout applications for this workflow are: Datalogics Pager, Adobe FrameMaker / InDesign, QuarkXPress, Xyvision, Arbortext Advanced Print Publisher (formerly 3B2) and priint:suite. Generally, these layout applications have a corresponding server version, which receives commands via web interfaces rather than desktop interaction. QuarkXPress Server and Adobe InDesign Server both take full advantage of the design features available in their respective desktop versions.

These applications make their broad spectrum of features available for extension and integration with vertical products, that can be developed either internally, through some form of scripting (e.g. JavaScript or AppleScript for InDesign), or externally, through some API and corresponding developer kits.

Other variants of database publishing are the rendering of content for direct PDF output. This approach prevents manual intervention on the final output, since PDF is not (comfortably) editable. This may not be perceived as a limitation in situations like report generation where manual editability is not needed or not desired.

title: Database publishing


text:
Puka Puka

Puka Puka may refer to:

 * Puka Puka (Chumbivilcas), a mountain in the Chumbivilcas Province, Cusco Region, Peru
 * Puka Puka (Cochabamba), a mountain in the Cochabamba Department, Bolivia
 * Puka Puka (La Paz), a mountain in the La Paz Department, Bolivia
 * Puka Puka (Lima), a mountain in the Lima Region, Peru
 * Pukapuka, a coral atoll in the northern Cook Islands in Polynesia
 * Puka-Puka, a small coral atoll on the north side of the Tuamotus in French Polynesia

title: Puka Puka


text:
Giovanni's Room

Giovanni's Room is a 1956 novel by James Baldwin. The book focuses on the events in the life of an American man living in Paris and his feelings and frustrations with his relationships with other men in his life, particularly an Italian bartender named Giovanni whom he meets at a Parisian gay bar.

Baldwin’s controversial novel has brought forth complex discussions surrounding a multitude of issues, including representations of homosexuality, bisexuality and struggles with internalized homophobia. Alongside these prevalent discourses, the novel also raises concepts of social alienation, identity, masculinity, and manhood into the public eye. This thereby fosters a broader public discourse of issues regarding same-sex desire.

Plot
David, a young American man whose girlfriend has gone off to Spain to contemplate marriage, is left alone in Paris and begins an affair with an Italian man, Giovanni. The entire story is narrated by David during "the night which is leading me to the most terrible morning of my life," when Giovanni will be executed. Baldwin tackles social isolation, gender and sexual identity crisis, as well as conflicts of masculinity within this story of a young bisexual man navigating the public sphere in a society that rejects a core aspect of his sexuality.

Part one
David, in Southern France, is about to board a train back to Paris. His girlfriend Hella, to whom he had proposed before she went to Spain, has returned to the United States. As for Giovanni, he is about to be guillotined.

David remembers his first experience with a boy, Joey, who lived in Brooklyn. The two bonded and eventually had a sexual encounter during a sleepover. The two boys began kissing and having sex. The next day, David left, and a little later he took to bullying Joey in order to feel like a real man.

David now lives with his father, who is prone to drinking, and his aunt, Ellen. The latter upbraids the father for not being a good example to his son. David's father says that all he wants is for David to become a real man. Later, David begins drinking, too, and drinks and drives once, ending up in an accident. Back home, the two men talk, and David convinces his father to let him skip college and get a job instead. He then decides to move to France to find himself.

After a year in Paris, penniless, he calls Jacques, an older gay male acquaintance, to meet him for supper so he can ask for money. (In a prolepsis, Jacques and David meet again and discuss Giovanni's fall.) The two men go to Guillaume's gay bar. They meet Giovanni, the new bartender, at whom Jacques tries to make a pass until he gets talking with Guillaume. Meanwhile, David and Giovanni become friends. Later, they all go to a restaurant in Les Halles for breakfast. Jacques enjoins David not to be ashamed to feel love; they eat oysters and drink white wine. Giovanni recounts how he met Guillaume in a cinema; how the two men had dinner together because Giovanni wanted a free meal. He also explains that Guillaume is prone to making trouble. Later, the two men go back to Giovanni's room and they have sex.

Flashing forward again to the day of Giovanni's execution, David is in his house in the South of France. The caretaker comes round for the inventory, as he is moving out the next day. She encourages him to get married, have children, and pray.

Part two
David moves into Giovanni's small room. They broach the subject of Hella, about whom Giovanni is not worried, but who reveals the Italian's misogynistic prejudices about women and the need for men to dominate them. David then briefly describes Giovanni's room, which is always in the dark because there are no curtains and they need their own privacy. He goes on to read a letter from his father, asking him to go back to America, but he does not want to do that. The young man walks into a sailor; David believes the sailor is a gay man, though it is unclear whether this is true or if the sailor is just staring back at David.

A subsequent letter from Hella announces that she is returning in a few days, and David realizes he has to part with Giovanni soon. Setting off to prove to himself that he is not gay, David searches for a woman with whom he can have sex. He meets a slight acquaintance, Sue, in a bar and they go back to her place and have sex; he does not want to see her again and has only slept with her to feel better about himself. When he returns to the room, David finds a hysterical Giovanni, who has been fired from Guillaume's bar and falsely accused of stealing from the till.

Hella eventually comes back and David leaves Giovanni's room with no notice for three days. He sends a letter to his father asking for money for their marriage. The couple then runs into Jacques and Giovanni in a bookshop, which makes Hella uncomfortable because she does not like Jacques's mannerisms. After walking Hella back to her hotel room, David goes to Giovanni's room to talk; the Italian man is distressed. David thinks that they cannot have a life together and feels that he would be sacrificing his manhood if he stays with Giovanni. He leaves, but runs into Giovanni several times and is upset by the "fairy" mannerisms that he is developing and his new relationship with Jacques, who is an older and richer man. Sometime later, David finds out that Giovanni is no longer with Jacques and that he might be able to get a job at Guillaume's bar again.

The news of Guillaume's murder suddenly comes out, and Giovanni is castigated in all the newspapers. David imagines that Giovanni went back into the bar to ask for a job, going so far as to sacrifice his dignity and agree to sleep with Guillaume. He imagines that, after Giovanni has compromised himself, Guillaume makes excuses for why he cannot rehire him as a bartender; in reality, they both know that Giovanni is no longer of interest to Guillaume's bar's clientele since so much of his life has been played out in public. Giovanni responds by killing Guillaume in rage. Giovanni attempts to hide, but he is discovered by the police and sentenced to death for murder. Hella and David then move to the South of France, where they discuss gender roles and Hella expresses her desire to live under a man as a woman. David, wracked with guilt over Giovanni's impending execution, leaves her and goes to Nice for a few days, where he spends his time with a sailor. Hella finds him and discovers his bisexuality, which she says she suspected all along. She bitterly decides to go back to America. The book ends with David's mental pictures of Giovanni's execution and his own guilt.

Characters

 * David, the protagonist and the novel's narrator. A blond American man, David spends a lot of the novel battling with his sexuality and his internalized homophobia. His mother died when he was five years old.
 * Hella, David's girlfriend. They met in a bar in Saint-Germain-des-Prés. She is from Minneapolis and moved to Paris to study painting, until she threw in the towel and met David by serendipity. Throughout the novel David intends to marry her.
 * Giovanni, a young Italian man who left his village after his girlfriend gave birth to a dead child. He works as a bartender in Guillaume's gay bar. Giovanni is the titular character whose romantic relationship with David leads them to spend a large amount of the story in his apartment. Giovanni's room itself is very dirty with rotten potatoes and wine spilled across the place.
 * Jacques, an old American businessman, born in Belgium. He spends money on younger men, one of whom is David.
 * Guillaume, the owner of a gay bar in Paris, who also pays for the company of younger men.
 * The Flaming Princess, an older man who tells David inside the gay bar that Giovanni is very dangerous.
 * Madame Clothilde, the owner of the restaurant in Les Halles.
 * Pierre, a young man at the restaurant, implied to be a rent boy.
 * Yves, a tall, pockmarked young man playing the pinball machine in the restaurant.
 * The Caretaker in the South of France. She was born in Italy and moved to France as a child. Her husband's name is Mario; they lost all their money in the Second World War, and two of their three sons died. Their living son has a son, also named Mario.
 * Sue, a blonde girl from Philadelphia who comes from a rich family and with whom David has a brief and regretful sexual encounter.
 * David's father. His relationship with David is masked by artificial heartiness; he cannot bear to acknowledge that they are not close and he might have failed in raising his son. He married for the second time after David was grown but before the action in the novel takes place. Throughout the novel David's father sends David money to sustain himself in Paris and begs David to return to America.
 * Ellen, David's paternal aunt. She would read books and knit; at parties she would dress skimpily, with too much make-up on. She worried that David's father was an inappropriate influence on David's development.
 * Joey, a neighbor in Coney Island, Brooklyn. David's first same-sex experience was with him.
 * Beatrice, a woman David's father sees.
 * The Fairy, whom David had a relationship with in the army, and who was later discharged for being gay.

Social alienation
One theme of Giovanni's Room is social alienation. Susan Stryker notes that prior to writing Giovanni's Room, James Baldwin had recently emigrated to Europe and "felt that the effects of racism in the United States would never allow him to be seen simply as a writer, and he feared that being tagged as gay would mean he couldn't be a writer at all." In Giovanni's Room, David is faced with the same type of decision; on the surface he faces a choice between his American fiancée (and value set) and his European boyfriend, but ultimately, like Baldwin, he must grapple with "being alienated by the culture that produced him." Baldwin also develops this theme through other characters who appear in his novel, such as Giovanni. Both by David and by his background as an Italian immigrant, Giovanni is found to be isolated throughout the book. Giovanni is pinned as 'alien' by David, in which he becomes a figure of mystery, though the reader does learn a lot about Giovanni in relation to David, there is not much revealed about Giovanni himself, apart from small revelations about his social status and class, which work to separate him from the other characters in the novel, such as Jacques, Guillaume and David. Thus, Giovanni faces issues of social alienation by both the information given to the reader and the information that is withheld from the reader – which may have been how Baldwin felt with his social presence in America.

Identity
In keeping with the theme of social alienation, this novel also explores the topics of origin and identity. As Valerie Rohy of the University of Vermont argues, "Questions of origin and identity are central to James Baldwin's Giovanni's Room, a text which not only participates in the tradition of the American expatriate novel exemplified by Stein and, especially, by Henry James but which does so in relation to the African-American idiom of passing and the genre of the passing novel. As such, Giovanni's Room poses questions of nationalism, nostalgia, and the constitution of racial and sexual subjects in terms that are especially resonant for contemporary identity politics.

Sexuality and race
Scholars at the time of the publication of the book had the mindset that whiteness was transvalued as heterosexuality and blackness as homosexuality. Giovanni’s room presents 'race' in different ways. All characters are portrayed through David’s experiences and prejudices; he is the representation of whiteness; he is tall and blond-haired; he grows up in a toxic environment regarding masculinity; and he struggles throughout the novel between his internalised homophobia and his sexuality. On the contrary, Joey and Giovanni, the two men David had relations with, are both described as dark by David. Giovanni, in particular, is coded as black in David’s perception. First, it is said that Giovanni’s enthusiasm is of a “blacker brand” than his, stating a clear difference between the two men. Furthermore, Italians immigrating to the United States were for a long time considered not to be white; they had special cases in the form of immigration as 'North Italian' or 'Sicilian' rather than whites. It was not until the mid-1950s, when the book was published, that Italian Americans were beginning to be considered whites. It is suggested that Italians acquire white status and privileges in the United States, so Italians living in Italy are still viewed as coloured or non-whites. In the novel, David clearly has this mindset, and it shows in his perception of Giovanni. David felt superior to Giovanni also because of his social class, which is also a sign of his 'blackness'. White people in the United States, especially from upper-class families like David, often view non-whites as inferior. Indeed, Giovanni came from a poor village in southern Italy and had in Paris a precarious job as a bartender with a small wage with which he could only provide for himself, and his class made him darker for someone like David with all his prejudices.

Baldwin, in Giovanni’s Room, deconstructed the discourse about sexuality and race and highlighted that the idea that whiteness opposed blackness and heterosexuality opposed homosexuality is false and that they are related and dependent.

The novel was viewed as a 'raceless' novel, thus being studied mainly in sexual manners rather than racial studies, but it clearly challenges the notion of a novel about white people having no race.

Masculinity
David grapples with insecurities pertaining to his masculinity throughout the novel. He spends much of his time comparing himself to every man he meets, ensuring that his performative masculinity allows him to "pass" while negotiating the public sphere. For David, masculinity is intertwined with sexual identity, and thus he believes that his same-sex desires act against his masculinity. One of David’s prominent male figures is his alcoholic father, with whom he holds a complex and sensitive relationship. After a drunk driving incident, David is met by his father in the hospital, where his father repeatedly reassures David that he "is going to be all right", to which David replies "Daddy" and begins to cry. This moment of expected vulnerability from David and his father cements the pain behind their relationship, which can be seen to cause David to put up a front of masculinity, which—to him—does not coincide with his sexual attractions.

Manhood
The phrase 'manhood' repeats throughout the book, in much the same ways that masculinity manifests itself. The difference between the two themes, in this case, is that David's manhood seems to be more to do with his sexual relationships, whereas his masculinity is guided by learned public behaviours he claims to inherit from his father. The self-loathing and projecting that ensues seem to depict the final blow to a man who already had a great amount of dysphoria. Baldwin's positioning of manhood within the narrative aligns it also with nationhood, sexuality and all facets of performance within the public sphere. Josep Armengol linked Baldwin's description of manhood as a way of him navigating his experiences of blackness in the LGBTQ+ community, particularly when David describes his earliest same-sex encounter with a boy called Joey. In this description "black" becomes a motif for experience and his dark thoughts surrounding Joey and his body.

LGBTQ+ spaces and movement in the public sphere
Much of the integral plot of Giovanni's Room occurs within queer spaces, with the gay bar David frequents being the catalyst that not only drives the plot, but allows it to occur. The bar acts as a mediator for David, Baldwin uses this setting to bring up much of the conflict of the novel, however, it remains a place that David returns to. Meanwhile, Giovanni’s room acts as a private space where Giovanni and David can return to in order to avoid public scrutiny. It is the place where they can actively live out their queerness. David rejects the room as much as he rejects his queerness, linking the privacy and life of queer people together. The novel negotiates the behavior of publicly LGBTQ+ people alongside those who are still "closeted", like David, and how these differing perspectives have an effect on the individual as well as the community that they navigate. Even within the public queer spaces like the bar, they act differently than in the safety of Giovanni’s room. Away from the scrutiny of other people, David is more ready to display his affections. These differences of how David acts in different spaces shows the intersectionality of class and sexuality that is explored in the novel. Not everyone is able to afford private spaces based on their class status. With that, not everyone is able has spaces to be queer in as the public sphere doesn’t allow it. This can be seen at the end of the novel, when all falls apart because Giovanni needs money and is forced into the public sphere. The private sphere is a protection from the public sphere and its loss has dire consequences. The less money one is able to make, the more likely this is to happen while high class people don’t experience similar fears of loss.

Question of bisexuality
Ian Young argues that the novel portrays homosexual and bisexual life in western society as uncomfortable and uncertain, respectively. Young also points out that despite the novel's "tenderness and positive qualities" it still ends with a murder.

Recent scholarship has focused on the more precise designation of bisexuality within the novel. Several scholars have claimed that the characters can be more accurately seen as bisexual, namely David and Giovanni. As Maiken Solli claims, though most people read the characters as gay/homosexual, "a bisexual perspective could be just as valuable and enlightening in understanding the book, as well as exposing the bisexual experience."

Though the novel is considered a homosexual and bisexual novel, Baldwin has on occasion stated that it was "not so much about homosexuality, it is what happens if you are so afraid that you finally cannot love anybody". The novel's protagonist, David, seems incapable of deciding between Hella and Giovanni and expresses both hatred and love for the two, though he often questions if his feelings are authentic or superficial.

Internalised homophobia
Leading on from David’s issues with his masculinity, another key dilemma became prevalent – David’s struggle with internalised homophobia. As Alaina Masanto states, David “has internalized the social hatred directed towards him”. This problem presses onto David's psyche and becomes alarmingly apparent in his first encounter with Giovanni. As they meet in a Parisian gay bar, David appears reluctant to speak to Giovanni, though once their conversation begins, he falls in love. He continuously denies these feelings, until he cannot, and he ends up repeatedly staying in Giovanni's room, which David describes as dark and dingy, a room of shame and sin.

Santiago Herrera describes this darkness that David sees in the room, stating: "Just as the tightening noose of heteronormative oppression gets ever closer to David through Hella, so too does the painting remind him of his indecision. Giovanni's room is dark, with only one window with soaped-up panes instead of curtains for privacy and trash all over. When the boys go out, it's in the early mornings or at night, before or after Giovanni's shifts as a bartender. Their lives are always shrouded in a darkness of some kind, and it only worsens when Hella comes to Paris."

David's push–pull relationship with Giovanni and his murky relationship with Hella showcases his torn mental state; he finds himself falling into this 'dark side' yet he cannot pull himself out of it as a result of his internalised homophobia.

Inspiration
An argument can be made that David resembles Baldwin in Paris as he left America after growing up under its racism. David, though not a victim of racism like Baldwin himself, is an American who escapes to Paris. However, when asked if the book was autobiographical in an interview in 1980, Baldwin explains he was influenced by his observations in Paris, but the novel wasn't necessarily shaped by his own experiences:

"No, it is more of a study of how it might have been or how I feel it might have been. I mean, for example, some of the people I have met. We all met in a bar, there was a blond French guy sitting at a table, he bought us drinks. And, two or three days later, I saw his face in the headlines of a Paris paper. He had been arrested and was later guillotined. That stuck in my mind."

Literary significance and criticism
Even though Baldwin states that "the sexual question and the racial question have always been entwined", in Giovanni's Room, all of the characters are white. This was a surprise for his readers, since Baldwin was primarily known for his novel Go Tell It on the Mountain, which puts emphasis on the African-American experience. Highlighting the impossibility of tackling two major issues at once in America, Baldwin stated:

"I certainly could not possibly have—not at that point in my life—handled the other great weight, the 'Negro problem.' The sexual-moral light was a hard thing to deal with. I could not handle both propositions in the same book. There was no room for it."

Nathan A. Scott Jr., for example, stated that Go Tell It on the Mountain showed Baldwin's "passionate identification" with his people whereas Giovanni's Room could be considered "as a deflection, as a kind of detour." Baldwin's identity as a gay and black man was questioned by both black and white people. His masculinity was called into question, due to his apparent homosexual desire for white men – this caused him to be labelled as similar to a white woman. He was considered to be "not black enough" by his fellow race because of this, and labeled subversive by the Civil rights movement leaders.

Baldwin's American publisher, Knopf, suggested that he "burn" the book because the theme of homosexuality would alienate him from his readership among black people. He was told, "You cannot afford to alienate that audience. This new book will ruin your career, because you're not writing about the same things and in the same manner as you were before, and we won't publish this book as a favor to you." However, upon publication critics tended not to be so harsh thanks to Baldwin's standing as a writer. Giovanni's Room was ranked number 2 on a list of the best 100 gay and lesbian novels compiled by The Publishing Triangle in 1999.

On November 5, 2019, the BBC News listed Giovanni's Room on its list of the 100 most influential novels.

The 2020 novel Swimming in the Dark by Polish writer Tomasz Jedrowski presents a fictionalized depiction of LGBTQ life in the Polish People's Republic. Citing Giovanni's Room as a major influence in his writing, Jedrowski pays homage to Baldwin by incorporating the novel into his narrative, the two main characters beginning an affair after one lends a copy of Giovanni's Room to the other.

Most criticism of the novel has focused on the role of heterosexuality.

Santiago Herrera attempts to provide more insight as to why Giovanni’s Room was so heavily criticised: "Early critics of Giovanni's Room were split in two: they either did not like it because the main characters, David and Giovanni, were explicitly shown in a same-sex relationship, or because David was white. 63 years after the novel’s publication, this still makes me wonder: why was there so much initial opposition? Why was there so much controversy over David just being an average American man? The answer, Baldwin was black." As Herrera states, much of the criticism was due to Baldwin’s race, even though the novel was deliberately written to focus on sexuality alone. It is important to note that, whilst Baldwin was attempting to write a more or less 'raceless' novel, this could not be achieved due to the societal yearning for racial discourse.

title: Giovanni's Room


text:
Talk:List of people from Melbourne

Livina Nixon
I removed Livina Nixon as it is probably best to only include people that are recognised internationally. --203.217.38.157 11:12, 13 February 2005 (UTC)

 * i dont think international notability should be the only test. famousness within melbounre should be sufficient.
 * also, these people should be categorised at some stage. Xtra 11:14, 13 February 2005 (UTC)

Is Ned Kelly a Melburnian?
He was born in Beveridge, not a part of Melbourne, and then moved north to Glenrowan. His main connection to Melbourne is that he was hanged in Melbourne Gaol and his suit of armour is now displayed here. But in his lifetime he had little or no connection with Melbourne. He is certainly a Victorian, but Melburnian ????? Cheers JackofOz 21:38, 20 March 2005 (UTC)

The "other" categorie
when putting people in that category please say what they are famouse for as "other" is not verry descriptive. Xtra 03:25, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion
I've always interpreted "come from Melbourne" fairly narrowly, ie. being born or at least brought up in Melbourne. Which is why I've removed Geoffrey Rush more than once - he's a Queenslander who has only latterly become a Melburnian. But some other editor always put him back in the list. Others seem to consider him a Melburnian because he now calls the place home and he's active in Camberwell civic affairs. I don't have a problem with that, but I'd be interested in having some clear criteria for inclusion in this category. What do others think? JackofOz 13:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm sick of trying to make the contents conform to the criteria, so I've amended the criteria to include "significant associations" with Melbourne. Now we can let Geoffrey Rush remain in the list.  JackofOz 06:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

John So didn't make the list?
Shouldn't John So be among the list of notable Melburnians given that he's the "longest serving Lord Mayor" of the city? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.58.120.11 (talk) 05:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

notability for list
I note there are some people on the list that don't have their own Wikipedia entry. and some of these people I've never heard of (not saying this is a notability test!) but surely the minimum requirement should be it's own wikipedia entry. I'm also aware you could put in basically most AFL papers based in Melbourne, so some of criteria should be set. Michellecrisp 07:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I think for people to be notable, they need to be known outside of Melbourne, and Australia. Also, some times people are known for what they have done, not who they are, so it would be difficult to write a page for them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.27.109.219 (talk) 14:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't figure out the grid, but it seems to me Rick Springfield should be included. Although born in Sydney, he spent a significant amount of his life in Melbourne..and he is certainly notable worldwide for his music and acting. 71.210.24.144 04:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Some Names in Wrong Columns
I'm not game to move these names in case I muck up the columns, but someone more experienced than me might like to do it:

 * Geoffrey Rush - Crime
 * Crowded House - Literature
 * Robert Menzies - Music
 * Vince Grella - Science & Engineering
 * Steve Vizard - Sport

I haven't checked them all - there may be others. Brograve 13:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

John Ilhan aka Crazy John
I reckon he deserves a mention, being one of Australia's most successful and well-known businessmen. Sad that he passed away a couple of days ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azzarr (talk • contribs) 11:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Integrate the two lists?
I'd like to suggest integrating the two lists. The first in any case still includes several non-native born. The act of birth is not normally the criterion for fame and so not directly relevant to notability in Melbourne. I would also suggest integrating the little list of the very famous at the beginning. Bmcln1 (talk) 12:40, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Famous notables?
According to what were the "Famous notables" selected? Of the six, I only know Dame Edna, Steve Irwin and Kylie Minogue.

On the other side, some famous are listed in the "other" section, of which at least Cate Blanchett and Nick Cave could be classified quite famous... 85.76.151.49 (talk) 01:47, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * This (old comment) completely begs the question: What is it we're trying to show here? Famous notables? As opposed to non-famous notables? Or as opposed to people who are famous but non-notable??
 * We have a huge problem because almost none of the names on the page are referenced, but the Famous notables not only lack refs for being Melburnians, all of them also lack sources for being famous.
 * I'm moving the non-duplicates down to their respective letters and removing this section entirely. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 15:33, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of people from Melbourne


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steve Almond

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. Joyous 19:58, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

Steve Almond
Vanity. The only thing notable (?) about him seems to be that he brags about his sex life. Radiant! 11:13, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete - vain nonsense - not really interested in his sex life - cabbages are more interesting! Brookie 11:52, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, promo, possible vanity. Megan1967 01:03, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for preceding reasons. But what if cabbages are involved in his sex life?  Barno 01:18, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, self-promotion and it's true, I've had encounters with cabbages that were much more exciting. Wyss 02:03, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ugh. I don't even want to guess how one of his sexually explicit stories earned him the nickname "Scoutmaster Money". Carrp | Talk 17:43, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.