text: User talk:165.138.243.50

title: User talk:165.138.243.50


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Bay-class tugboat

The Bay-class tugboat is a class of 140 ft icebreaking tugboats of the United States Coast Guard, with hull numbers WTGB-101 through to WTGB-109.

They can proceed through fresh water ice up to 20 in thick, and break ice up to 3 ft thick, through ramming. They can also ram pressure ridges of up to eight feet in thickness. These vessels are equipped with a system to lubricate their progress through the ice, by bubbling air through the hull.

Service Life Extension Program (SLEP)
A SLEP is a major overhaul intended to extend a vessel's service life; it is typically scheduled as the vessel approaches the end of its originally planned service life. The Bay-class tugboat SLEP project includes significant system upgrades and improvements to the propulsion plant; to the heating, ventilation, and air conditioning systems; installation of an engine-room fire-suppression system; boat launching davit replacement; Oily Water Separator replacement; stack exhaust configuration modifications; hull air-ice lubrication system; and crew habitability improvements to meet current standards (including removal of lead paint). When the Coast Guard described the Bay-class tugboat SLEP to the U.S. Congress in 2015, the first SLEP was scheduled to take 12 months; however, the Coast Guard anticipated that after the third SLEP the Coast Guard Yard would have enough familiarity with the process to complete two SLEPs per year, with an anticipated duration of 9 months each. The first of nine cutters (Morro Bay) entered SLEP at the Coast Guard Yard on July 1, 2014. Morro Bay returned to her homeport of Cleveland in September 2015

Ships

 * (WTGB-101) Katmai Bay (Homeport - Sault Ste. Marie, MI / Builder: Tacoma Boatbuilding Company)
 * (WTGB-102) Bristol Bay (Homeport - Detroit, MI / Builder: Tacoma Boatbuilding Company)
 * (WTGB-103) Mobile Bay (Homeport - Sturgeon Bay, WI / Builder: Tacoma Boatbuilding Company)
 * (WTGB-104) Biscayne Bay (Homeport - St. Ignace, MI / Builder: Tacoma Boatbuilding Company)
 * (WTGB-105) Neah Bay (Homeport - Cleveland, OH / Builder: Tacoma Boatbuilding Company)
 * (WTGB-106) Morro Bay (Homeport - Cleveland, OH / Builder: Tacoma Boatbuilding Company]
 * (WTGB-107) Penobscot Bay (Homeport - Bayonne, NJ / Builder: Bay City Marine Incorporated)
 * (WTGB-108) Thunder Bay (Homeport - Rockland, ME / Builder: Bay City Marine Incorporated)
 * (WTGB-109) Sturgeon Bay (Homeport - Bayonne, NJ / Builder: Bay City Marine Incorporated)
 * (WTGB-110) Curtis Bay (Construction cancelled)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Bay-class tugboat


text:
Talk:Vietnamese phonology

Accessibility
An effort to make the article more comprehensible to a non-linguist would be appreciated; obviously the article doesn't need to be "dumbed-down" or anything, but just explained with less reliance on technical jargon. For instance, in several cases it makes reference to sounds using IPA standard notation without making any note of which letter combinations actually make the sound. It seems silly that a native speaker of both English and Vietnamese cannot tell what sound you are referring to in an English article about Vietnamese. (Keep in mind that since as you well know the pronunciation of a sound varies by region, merely referencing the literal phonetic sound can be inadequate to identify what you are referring to.)

comments/suggestions?
I have, so far, been the main contributor to this page. It is very unfinished and my research is very preliminary. So I urge you to read at your own risk.

I dont know the Vietnamese language. I, simply, enjoy the way Vietnamese sounds to my ear, and I wish to know a little more about the precise phonetic description of this language's sound system. This page is really just some notes to myself. I thought perhaps others plugged in to Internet might be interested in reading my notes, so I am providing them to this community (but hopefully a little more cleaned up). Since I have a background in linguistics, I may not provide enough explanation for some readers. Please ask for better explanations if the material is not clear.

I have not actually read all of the materials listed in the bibliography. In fact, I do not have all of these works. But I do have the majority of them.

I would be interested to know what native speakers have to say or anyone else who has comments, suggestions, questions, answers, etc.

One thing that I am concerned with is whether or not this article is becoming too specialized and therefore not suitable material for an encyclopedia.

Another thing I predict is that this article will become too big. We may need separate the phonology stuff from the orthography stuff. There already exists a small Vietnamese alphabet article.

Peace. — ishwar  (S PEAK )  04:32, 2005 Mar 28 (UTC)

On Phomenes
A lot of work has gone into it. Good on you. I did change one fact - that about "v"s not being pronounced in HCMC. That's not exactly true. It's a Mekong Delta thing to pronounce their "v"s as "j"s- the city siders generally pronounce their "v"s quite well.

There's one problem - which will need some work to address. The U with a hook (ư) is pronounced as /ɯ/, not /ɨ/. Basically, you take your /u/, and flatten the lips. The /ɨ/ sound occurs in Russian (which I tried to learn some years back), and that sound does not occur in Vietnamese.

(I live in HCMC, and have been learning the language.)

It's a tough thing to work out the IPA for a, â, ă and ơ. There's no standard trascription for these letters. Having an "Endnotes" for this "controversy" is a good idea, but maybe it belongs on another page.)

Anyway... well done! Tphcm

re /v/
hi. thanks for your comments. although i dont doubt your observations, perhaps "generally pronounc[ing] their 'v's quite well" is a bit more complex. i note that your observation is contrary to the some works i have read (e.g. Thompson 1965, Nguyễn 1997). i list some relevant bits:

 * Thompson (1965:85) :

 * "Bas-Annam. The general characteristics of Đà-nẵng speech apply for the most part to the balance of the territory of south central Viet Nam.... Somewhere not far north of the Saigon region [v] disappears; it is replaced by [j], which everywhere from Huế south resembles English y in you, yes. An early picture of this area is presented in Cadière 1911. The correspondence of Cochinchinese [j] to [v] of other dialects is discussed historically in Maspero 1912 (pp. 41-42, 70-74)."

 * Thompson (1965:89) :

 * "The lenis oral consonants in Saigon [v, th, r, l, g, h] are very noticeably more relaxed than their Hanoi counterparts. In addition there are a few other differences. Saigon [v] appears only before the semivowel [j] (4.22) and is itself palatalized in anticipation...

 * "vợ [vjợư̯] HN [vợư̯] wife

 * "The initial cluster [vj] corresponds to Hanoi initial [v]. Actually, this is a spelling pronunciation on the part of educated speakers in Saigon: the majority of the Saigonese (including many educated people) pronounce simply [j] in these forms. Some, then, add a [v] before the [j], knowing that the form is spelled with v. There are a few who pronounce a [b] sound before [j] in the same form; this sound is also lenis (quite unlike the sound heard in bài lesson)."

 * Thompson (1965:93) :

 * "The clusters [vj, kw] seem obviously secondary introductions into the system based on knowledge of the spelling of the words involved; less educated speakers have simply [j, w] in these forms, and educated speakers, too, often use them in less careful speech.

 * "vừa [(v)jừâ̯] HN [vừâ̯] to fit, suit"

 * Thompson (1965:97) :

 * "Although initial [w] is not distinguished from [v] by being preglottalized, the fact that [v] occurs only before [j], where [w] does not appear, places them together in a /w/ phoneme, as in Hanoi speech. (For those speakers who have a lenis stop before [j] this [b] clearly belongs to the /w/ phoneme, in place of the [v] just discussed). The semivowel [j] is seen to fill the empty position in the laminal column...."

 * Thompson (1965:98), in a chart of dialectal correspondences:

 * " ORTHOGRAPHY v; HANOI v; VINH v; HUE v; DA-NANG v; SAIGON (v)j; TRA-VINH j; "

 * Thompson (1959:459) :

 * "/w/ Lenis labial oral nonsyllabics [sic].
 * Initial before /j/ : [v] palatalized.
 * /wjɑ`/ ‘and’
 * Before /y/, and after /i y u ʌ/ : nonsyllabic [u].
 * /wyŋ/ ‘Huân [family or given name]’, /twyŋ`/ ‘week’; /ˀiw/ ‘cherish’, /kyw`/ ‘sheep’, /ɑuw˜/ ‘sleep’, /ˀtʌw/ ‘unspecified location’, /ˀʌwŋ/ ‘gentleman’
 * Before syllabics other than /y/, and after /e a/ : nonsyllabic [ᴜ].
 * /kwen/ ‘forget’, /kwɑ/ ‘to pass’, /ɑwɑj`/ ‘outside’; /new´/ ‘if’, /ˀawŋ/ ‘bee’
 * After /ɛ ɑ/ : nonsyllabic [o].
 * /hɛw/ ‘pig’, /ˀtɑw/ ‘sick’ "

 * Thompson (1959:466) :

 * "Note that aside from /ˀp ˀt wj/ all clusters have /w/ as second element.... The clusters /wj kw/ tend to disappear in less careful speech; the resulting forms are the same as the corresponding popular forms. Since these clusters are distinguished in the official orthography but are not present in the popular speech of the dialect area, it is reasonable to suggest that in the educated dialect of Saigon they represent artificial restorations under the influence of the written language.
 * /wj/ is replaced by /j/  /ja`/ ‘and’ "

So, basically what Thompson is saying is that generally southern-ish varieties dont have a contrast between [v](/[b]) and [j] unlike the northern and central varieties and in Ho Chi Minh City there is a situation of literacy affecting pronunciation and perhaps somewhat marginally the sound system. Thompson further analyzes this marginal [v]/[b] as an allophone of /w/ occuring before /j/.

Thompson's fieldwork was done during the 1950s. Several have noted that in big cities, such as Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City, there has been a certain amount of mixing of varieties. So I would speculate that you may be observing (1) stronger influence of literacy (assuming, of course, that more Ho Chi Minh speakers have become literate since the Vietnam War) and (2) more influence of northern/central varieties on the Ho Chi Minh variety. Anyway, just a guess! It would be interesting to note if all speakers that you observe having [v] are literate and/or of the same socioeconomic background. I would also be interested in knowing if [v] is still as palatalized as Thompson describes.

There have been several phonological works written in Vietnamese which I havent seen (and probably will not be reading). There are a few PhD dissertations on Vietnamese phonology scattered here & there. These are all more recent than Thompson. They may have something on this. Also, Thompson's grammar explicitly does not claim to be a comprehensive study of Vietnamese language variation: he very pointedly states that there is little work in this area (as of 1965). (if you dont have this grammar, i could provide a biblio with references in Vietnamese). peace — ishwar  (S PEAK )  09:41, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

re /ư/
ok, my short answer: i dont know. traditional description is following Thompson (who is generally very accurate). what i remember from Han's studies in the 60s (i dont have a copy, just looked at them) is that she indicates that this vowel is central, not back. her evidence is the average frequency of the 2nd formant as measured with a spectrograph. but, i dont remember how she calculated F2. maybe she just reported it without any weighting of F3. (if you arent familiar with acoustic phonetics, the value of F2, i.e. the second formant, is generally a rough indication of horizontal tongue position. a high F2 indicates an advanced tongue & a low F2 indicates a retracted tongue.) there are a few researchers now that transcribe or otherwise indicate this vowel as central (i'm speaking of Brunelle & Pham). but, as i have mentioned before, i am not a Vietnamese linguist so i havent read all that much. i personally want some more data. anyway, i will read more & report back here. peace – ishwar  (speak)  06:27, 2005 July 31 (UTC)

 * I can only give a piece of anecdotal evidence here (native Hanoian Viet, speak English decently, currently learning Japanese). The Vietnamese Ư is unlikely to be a back vowel, since there is a clear distinction between it and Japanese う (/ɯ/ when not preceded by a consonant). I tried to replicate Vietnamese Ư and Japanese う in a few times, and I believe it is correct to transcript Ư as a central vowel. My friend (another native Hanoian Viet, speak English and Chinese fluently) noticed that when she heard the Japanese う for the first time, it sounded like a mix between Vietnamese U and Ư (probably because う is unrounded back, while U is rounded back and Ư is unrounded central). Pokokichi2 (talk) 17:07, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

re ǎ & â
Great article. I have two observations. This one is about the lax/tense vowels. The main difference between the short vowels and ǎ & â and the long vowels a & ơ is in their phonation. The long vowels are tense (using modal phonation), while the short vowels are lax (lax/slack phonation.) IPA uses a small circle under a phoneme to mark lax phonation. Vietphone (talk) 03:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

re õ
This seems to be a vowel in Vietnamese, as in the name of the singer Võ Hạ Trâm. Shouldn't this article treat it? The Wikipedia article on Õ does discuss its Vietnamese use briefly.Peter Brown (talk) 17:18, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Nope, this is the vowel  with ngã tone. Both are covered in the article. MuDavid (talk) 00:59, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

re th
I am pretty sure th consonant is glottalized (glottalic egressive), regardless of southern/northern dialect. I think what you have pointed out as glottalized consonants: b, đ, plus th and maybe even kh, would become "pharyngealized" in emphasized speech, (whether they are ingressive or egressive seems to correlate directly with whether they are voiced or voiceless.) I mean, in emphasized speech, sometimes I can hear a pause or a RTR schwa between these consonants and the vowels that follow. (RTR = retracted tongue root.) By "pharyngealized" I mean the airway is not just closed at the glottis, but closed with tongue root closing the pharynx. For instance, the Vietnamese word thi sounds different from English word tea, not just in consonant... in emphasized speech, even the vowel sounds a bit different because of the tongue-root retraction. Anyway, too technical. I wish there is another place where people could talk more about Vietnamese phonetics in detail. Thanks for your hard work. The points I am raising may be too technical to be included. Vietphone (talk) 03:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Terminology
I have a small quibble. In normal usage, I've never heard the southern dialect being referred to as "Ho Chi Minh City dialect". It's either "Saigon dialect" (tiếng/giọng Sài Gòn) or "Southern dialect" (tiếng/giọng nam). Do any of your more recent references refer to it as "Ho Chi Minh City dialect"? DHN 04:05, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

 * hi.

 * using Ho Chi Minh City variety is just an arbitary editorial decision. older work refers to it as Saigon dialect.  older still: Saigonese.  as far as i can tell more recent works used Southern variety.  i have seen Ho Chi Minh dialect somewhere, but this is not used in the majority of what i have read.  i choose this because of the city's name change and because someone else on Wikipedia used HCMC dialect.  if you (or anyone else) would prefer to use Saigon, then please change it.

 * as a linguist, i dont really like the word dialect due to all of the negative associations this word carries, regardless of this widespread use in popular writing. variety is a more neutral term (this term is common in linguistics).

 * so, i am not so interested in labels, just the phonology. you can make this editorial change with no objection from me.  peace — ishwar   (S PEAK )  15:59, 2005 May 17 (UTC)

nh and ch
Hi. The article says:

 * In the Saigon variety the codas nh and ch do not exist.

Does this mean that these are pronounced differently? If so, how? I only speak a little Vietnamese and I'm not a linguist, but I've always had the impression these codas are always pronounced, although not always in the same way. Beautiful article. If it's somewhat finished, I may translate it to Dutch – as I've done with the main article on Vietnamese language already.

David 11:33, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

 * hi. the Saigon variety does not have syllables ending in /c/ or /ɲ/. the proto-Vietnamese sounds that have remained in the North have merged with /t/ & /n/. so,

 * orthographic ch & nh = North /c/ & /ɲ/ = South /t/ & /n/
 * orthographic t & n = North /t/ & /n/ = South /k/ & /ŋ/  or   /t/ & /n/ (depends on environment)
 * orthographic c & ng = North /k/ & /ŋ/ = South /k/ & /ŋ/

 * using orthography here is confusing, so this should be clarified in the future (actually it simply needs to be written in the first place!). a helpful note is that the syllable-initial consonant letters represent mostly the southern varieties while syllable-final letters represent mostly the northern varieties. (no Vietnamese speaker will make all the contrasts that are suggested in the writing system.)

 * i dont think that the article is even halfway finished. (i havent even finished responding to one editor's comment up above). it doesnt have a phonological processes section yet. the discussion of tone is very empty. there is an 8-tone analysis that needs to be presented. Vietnamese tone is very complicated. i havent had time to figure it out yet. i am not saying dont translate, i think that you should (Vietnamese is a very nice language, after all). but it will have to be a living translation, just like the article is slowly growing. but, better yet, you can always go to source material which is listed in the article.

 * anyway, thank you reading. please offer suggestions if you have any. peace – ishwar  (speak)  06:14, 2005 July 31 (UTC)

 * Okay, I see. This clarifies a lot. I'm watching this article and one day I'll certainly translate it. It will indeed be "living" as you say, just as the Dutch article on Vietnamese language is living as the English version is being elaborated. And as for using the source material listed in the article: there isn't much material about Vietnamese language here in Belgium (where I live) and Wikipedia is one of the better sources I've discovered so far. Peace tot you too. David [[image:Da Vit in Chu Nôm.jpg|23px|Da Vit]] 11:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Some requests
Hi, the article looks great! But it would be nice if there were some discussion of how the sounds of the northern dialect map onto the sounds of the southern dialect and vice versa. As for the pronunciation of final -ch and -nh above, it was said they're pronounced in the North but /t, n/ in the South. But in Đinh-Hoa Nguyên's chapter "Vietnamese" in The World's Major Languages (ed. Bernard Comrie, Oxford University Press 1987, ISBN 0-19-520521-9), the author says they're pronunced, so anh "elder brother" and bach "white" are pronounced and  respectively. Is that a third dialect? Is it just a narrower transcription of and ? Is it a mistake? --Angr/undefined 20:54, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * What do Southern correspond to in the North?
 * What does Northern /z/ correspond to in the South?
 * Is the orthography pandialectal, or are words spelled differently in each dialect, based on pronunciation? What letters stand for which phonemes in each dialect? (We have this information for vowels at the very bottom of the page, but we don't have it for consonants at all.)
 * Regarding the pan-dialectical nature of the orthography: In the early years of the 20th century when quốc ngữ was just becoming popular, everyone pretty much used their own orthography (Ho Chi Minh's revolutionary pamphlet Đường kách mệnh would be written as Đường cách mạng nowadays). After some conferences the issue was somewhat settled.  However, the partitioning of the country in 1954 caused some differences to form: the North used an orthography based on the northern variety of Vietnamese while the South used its own variety.  Some differences include bệnh (N) vs. bịnh (S), nhất (N) vs. nhứt (S), etc.  After reunification, the Southern orthography gradually died out in favor of the Northern orthography.  The orthography is not settled, however.  There have been occasional recommendations to change it in favor of a more "scientific" approach: ph->f, d->z, đ->d, etc.  Most of these never gained momentum, but some already have: the issue of i/y and over which vowel to place tone mark had been settled with textbooks favoring the i spelling (although everyone else use the y orthography) and placing the tone mark over the main vowel. DHN 00:21, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

 * hi. thank you for the comments. the correspondences will be written one day...

 * the analysis of Nguyễn is different from the analysis of Thompson. this is partly due to Hanoi variation (Nguyễn's speech is not the same as all Hanoi speakers). an article by Thompson discusses these different analyses:

 * Thompson, Laurence E. (1967).  The history of Vietnamese final palatals.  Language, 43 (1), 362-371.

 * (i have a pdf of this article if you are interested & dont have access to it...). the analysis of [c] as /k/ is supported by the funny distribution of [c] and by some phonetic data indicating that [c] is really articulated further back. there is a vowel which could be a realization of  or . Thompson notes that the glide [j] is not always present in his data. i dont have Thompson or Nguyễn's grammars with me right now, so i cant consult them.

 * i dont know what the status of /c/ is in all dialects. it was present in the Vietnamese of the 1600s. i need to get some info on other regions (i feel bad about their under-representation).

 * peace – ishwar  (speak)  06:09, 2005 August 1 (UTC)

 * I notice that Haiphong dialect is similar to Hanoi but it has the "right" r-, s- not same as x-, gi- d- r- not the same, and seems that tr- and ch- not the same. The endings -ch -nh are just [j]+velars.

 * There's finally a note about the final palatals. – ishwar  (speak)  19:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

8 tone
Would it be possible to hear (as briefly as you like) what you hope to cover under the Eight Tone Analysis? I'm using this article as help in my Vietnamese-learning (and it IS a help!) and I was wondering what further information might appear here... [philip]

 * hi. I dont remember exactly what it is (Vietnamese is not one of my areas of study). Basically, 2 of the tones in the 6-tone analysis are split up into 2 different tones each. The 8-tone is an older analysis that is assumed in traditional poetry & the like (before Vietamese was written in Roman characters). Recently, Pham's dissertation (2003) has presented evidence in support of 8 tones. If you are reading pedagogical stuff, then you probably will not encounter any mention of 8 tones. It would be harder to teach too because the current writing system only identifies 6 tones. You should also be aware that speakers in different regions of Vietnam have different numbers of tone (the north has 6, other places have less). None of this is in article, of course. peace – ishwar  (speak)  08:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for this. It gets me somewhere! - philip

 * following Chinese, the eight system assumes the stopped syllable (with -p,-t,-c,-ch) to be separate tones. You may notice that those syllables only have sac and nang tone.

Comment: Imiraven
Imiraven 16:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC) Imiraven 06:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)Writing that the letter "ă" represents the "ash" vowel is a serious mistake. It should be similar to the low central vowel [a] as in German "dann". Please check again.

 * hi. i believe that is what the article explains (i.e. that it is low central). can you point out where it says otherwise (because i cant seem to find it). peace – ishwar  (speak)  19:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Imiraven A sound similar to the ash vowel exists in Southern Vietnamese dialects and is represented by the letter "a", when it stands in isolation or doesn't stand before "nh."

Cleanup needed
There is a lot of good stuff here. All of it is pretty much relevant. However, I'd try to make it more consise. My ideas:

(a) Put the phototactics first. That would make a lot of the subsequent article make sense.

(b) Then make one table (not two) encompassing the consonants of Hanoi and HCMC. Add footnotes for which sounds only occur in one of the cities (e.g., "z").

(c) Then make two tables - one for initial consonants, and then one for coda consonants. A lot of the information is spread around the place. It would be nice to have it in one place.

(d) Then vowels.

(e) Finally tone.

(f) Finally, the rough appendix - showing the various symbols used by various authors for the same phoneme. Again, a little cleanup here would be good.

All honor and praise to "Ish ishwar", whose work made it possible.

--Tphcm 05:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

An example of this can be found here:

--Tphcm 08:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Chinese-Vietnamese tone correspondence
Say what the correspondence between Vietnamese tones for Chinese loanwords vs. the Old Chinese tones is, if any. Jidanni (talk) 01:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Vietnamese IPA key
As part of an effort to have consistent IPA transcriptions in various languages, I'd like to develop a Vietnamese IPA key and corresponding IPA-vi template, and would appreciate the input of people here. The idea is that we would make all the distinctions relevant for Hanoi and Saigon, and hopefully for Vinh, Hue, etc. as well, so we would transcribe e.g. v, d, r and the 6 (8) tones with distinct IPA values in the transcription, and leave it to the key to note that certain ones of these are not distinct in Hanoi, and others are not distinct in Saigon. This isn't meant for detailed treatments like this article, but rather for articles that include one or two Vietnamese terms, for which we need to give basic pronunciation information for readers who are not familiar with Vietnamese orthography, often alongside Chinese, Khmer, or other languages. It would be similar to WP:IPA for English, which glosses over the differences between the US and the UK; or WP:IPA for Spanish, which is moving in the direction of having the Castillian transcription as the default, since Latin American pronunciations are predictable once you know the Castillian. I think it would be best to use fairly common symbols as long as that does not cause a loss of information (say [a] for ă rather than, and [ə] for â rather than ), since many of our readers struggle with the IPA. It would also be nice if we could agree on tone diacritics along the lines of Thai, such as I've proposed in the key, rather than tone letters, which might lead to arguments over the exact phonetic realizations of the tones.

If you think it is worthwhile, we might even develop a template like convertIPA-hu (for Hungarian), which would automatically convert an input of Vietnamese orthography to IPA. That way if we later decided to change our IPA conventions, we could do it at the template rather than going through every article. kwami (talk) 22:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

/ɔ/
/ɔ/ is often pronounced /ɒ/. Fête —Preceding undated comment added 12:14, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I noticed you put that in the article. Do you have a source? — Æµ§œš¹  [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]  15:23, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Saigonese kh
Is it really an aspirated /k/ (/kʰ/)? This is one mind-blowing discovery for me, since I'm Vietnamese and I've never perceive the sound that way.Fumiko Take (talk) 02:39, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I very much agree with you in that I have never heard this particular accent in formal or informal speech. I removed the claim, and I encourage anyone to argue their points if they believe it to be true. Including sources from the past 30 years would be ideal. Mijcon (talk) 05:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

 * That was introduced by this person: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/138.229.28.169

 * It's wrong. The only [k] for /x/ (kh) is mentioned by Thompson is when /x/ is syllable-initial and follows another word ending in /k/ or /ŋ/ and he describes it as weak (and notates it with a superscript [k]). This is obviously some slightly differing timing alignment of voicing relative to lingual articulation. (Compare to English words like sense where the [ns] sequence is often realized as [nts] thus becoming similar to cents.) Probably not worth mentioning.

 * Most of the article is based on Thompson, so you don't need another source for /x/. – ishwar  (speak)  00:09, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

 * Hello everyone, it's not wrong, many Southerners pronounce exactly as the English "k", Khánh Hoà , the first word is pronounced as the first syllable as "country". 138.229.19.202 (talk) 16:00, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, as far I know most Vietnamese fricatives always begin with correspondent stop sounds, for example: /kx/ kh, /gɣ/ g, /bv/ v, /ts/ x. It is unusual and somehow difficult for them to pronounce pure fricatives.Khiemnguyen09 (talk) 05:45, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

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Error in common Vietnamese rhymes
In the table of common vietnamese rhymes the row /ʷo/ is wrong, it should be deleted. Such sounds don't exist in Vietnamese. In a word like muối the u is not a labiovelar glide, instead uố is the same vowel nucleus as in mua and i is an off-glide. Qtng (talk) 09:24, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Neutral form?
A Vietnamese friend told me that there actually is a Vietnamese which is pronounced as written, i.e. every distinction made in spelling is made in speech, and that this was the language they spoke at school. Yet the article makes it sound like there simply is no such thing. Can someone clear up that situation for me? Korn (talk) 10:32, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

 * I am a Hanoian, and I may clarify it for you. No Vietnamese dialect actually speaks as it is written. You can hear a Hanoian Vietnamese anchorman speaking in the official TV channel here: https://vtv.vn/video/nguy-co-chay-rung-tu-viec-dot-rung-lam-ray-30849.htm. No Hanoian differentiates R (/r/) and D (/z/), albeit we do differentiate TR and CH in some very specific situations. The same with other dialects. Pokokichi2 (talk) 17:25, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I am full agreed with Pokokichi2. If you take a look at the figure Regional consonant correspondences, Article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_language, you will see, what Pokokichi2 means.

Currently I am concerned about the fact, that vietnamese dictionaries do not completely consider the 3 different pronunciations as well as the words of the 3 regions of Vietnam. And teachers for vietnamese language do not care of this information lack neither. Intentionally or not intentionally! Sad but true.

By the way: In South Vietnam, before 1975, all 3 dialects (north, central, south) are spoken in the state-owned media (radio, TV, newspapers) and non state-owned media e.g. newspapers. Words of all 3 dialects are of equal value and written in all media, applying for all dictionaries. In official and non-official events. In "educated" and in "non educated" circles. Each vietnamese, regardless from North, Central or South, is proud of his/her dialect. No dialect is more privileged than the other. And that was in South Vietnam before 1975. Beautiful Bavaria (talk) 16:04, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

/i/
In the South, the /i/ is really pronounced, Ba Vì , it sounds like "ba vay". 138.229.19.202 (talk) 16:00, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

I am sorry. You make the thing more complicated that it is. The /i/ is pronounced as /i/. OMG. That is so simple. Please, don´t make the pronunciation different as it is. By the way: In "pure" south vietnamese dialect (Tiếng Nam) v is always pronounced as [j]. So: Ba Vi will be spoken as Ba Ji.

Anyway: Pronunciation of v as [v] used by south vietnamese people does not mean, these south vietnamese people are more "educated", "intellectual" than people speaking "pure" south dialect. That is not a question of educated/or not, of intellectual or not. It is just a question of where you are working, either as reporter, as correspondent, as moderator,as "someone" who speaks to any audience (TV or social media, e.g. YouTube.). In fact it is not yet clear, when this "mixture" of north- and south pronunciation appears in the very first time. As mentioned, this "mixture" only appplies to south vietnamese people speaking in the "spoken" media.

As far as the north vietnamese dialect is concerned, north vietnamese people do not pronounce d, r, tr as written neither. They still pronounce their "pure" north vietnamese dialect.

Vietnam should be proud of their (at least) 3 different dialects (north, central, south).

Please remember: A good vietnamese teacher teaches vietnamese language with all the nuances (pronunciation, words) of the 3 dialects, since these 3 dialects are in equal value. Beautiful Bavaria (talk) 15:32, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Saigon Finals section rework
The Saigon Finals section as it stands is so bad as to be totally useless. I have PhD in Linguistics and I could not understand what it was trying to communicate. Besides the terrible quality of English, the "Merger of finals" is way too compressed and self-contradictory, and it is utterly unclear what the "table of rimes ending in /n, t, ŋ, k, ŋ͡m, k͡p/ in the Saigon dialect:" is trying to communicate: what is the vertical axis – a claim about what the underlying coda phoneme is? Why does each cell contain 2 forms? If this is supposed to illustrate pronunciations, why is all the content of the cells orthographic forms, no phonetic transcription? Why are some cells empty? Why do some cells have "–" as the second form? It says "Combinations that have changed their pronunciation due to merger are bolded" – but if *every* cell that isn't empty has a bold-faced string as the first of the 2 strings in it, what is the bold-facing representing?

In contrast, the Language Variation > Consonants section of the Vietnamese Language article is crystal clear. The "Regional consonant correspondences" table there is crystal clear too: the vertical axis is labeled with the orthography, sometimes with qualifications like "after i, ê", and the Saigon column has the phonetic transcription of the coda consonant. I suggest that Vietnamese Phonology > Saigon Finals be scrapped entirely and essentially replaced by the relevant section of Vietnamese Language > Language Variation > Consonants section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:189:C480:DF40:8C85:EB01:4A72:225D (talk) 13:06, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Chapter Saigon initials
In this chapter I am wondering about following remarks, e.g.: 1) ... careful speech by some speakers. 2) ... especially in careful speech or when reading a text.. 3) ... However, in many speakers .. 4) ... In informal speech .. 5) ... formal speech or when reading a text... The way how south vietnamese people are pronouncing the above mentioned "mixture" of north- and south dialects has absolutely nothing to do with the form of the speech (careful, not careful, formal, not formal/informal). This dialect mixture is rather used by south vietnamese people speaking in state-owned media, in "censored" socia media, regardless of the "form" of the speech.

In South Vietnam before 1975 south vietnamese leaders always spoke their own, pure dialect, regardless of they were born, from North, Central or from South Vietnam, regardless of where they have spoken, on media, with the audience, private or not private, "careful" or not "careful", "formal" or "not formal". They always keep their own dialect.

Example:

Ngô Đình Diệm born in Quảng Bình, central North Vietnam. He spoke north central dialect. Dương Văn Minh born in Mỹ Tho, Mekong Delta, South Vietnam. He spoke south dialect. Nguyễn Cao Kỳ born in Sơn Tây, North Vietnam. He spoke north dialect. Nguyễn Văn Thiệu born in Phan Rang, central South Vietnam. He spoke this own south central dialect.

A mixture of pronunciation like mentioned above is unknown for them.

The question is:

WHY THIS MIXTURE? WHERE DID IT BEGIN?

I guess, a south vietnamese leader of the current political system in Vietnam has triggered for the very first time this "mixture". This mixture is "promoted" by the massive resettlement of north vietnamese population to South Vietnam and especially to Saigon (aka HCM city), by the nearly complete presence of north vietnamese people in the media, in the administration.

In a nutshell: The presence of south dialect spoken vietnamese people is more or less "zero" in the spoken media!

The "north vietnamese" presence is so all over in main cities of South Vietnam, so that one should have the feeling, he is staying in North Vietnam, and not in South Vietnam. Beautiful Bavaria (talk) 20:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Phonetic nature of the so-called “preglottalized” and “unaspirated” voiceless stops in Vietnamese
The article mainly draws on Thompson’s excellent A Vietnamese reference grammar (1965), but the description of what the author terms “Fortis stops” (2.2, p 22) is incorrect. This is particularly true of what he calls the “preglottalized stops” b [ɓ] and đ [ɗ]. These stops are not “preglottalized”, that is, they do not start with a glottal stop, as the author claims, but are simply voiced implosives, whose mechanism is well described e.g. in Catford (1988) and Ladefoged (2001). Thompson does not even use the term “implosive” but only writes of possible “implosion”. Thompson apparently believed that a glottalic airstream – egressive or ingressive - can only be initiated with a completely closed glottis, which is not true. Implosives are initiated with the glottis slightly open and ready for voicing, but unlike in the case of ordinary [b] and [d], the egressive (upward) airstream necessary for the vocal chords to vibrate for [ɓ] and [ɗ] does not come from pulmonic pressure, but from a rapidly descending larynx increasing subglottal pressure and decreasing intraoral pressure at the same time, thus generating the pressure difference necessary to set the vocal chords vibrating. Thompson writes the “preglottalized” voiced stops are “much stronger articulated” than their English counterparts. What really creates this much stronger sound effect in implosives is not the strength of articulation, but an oral resonance chamber greatly enlarged by the downward movement of the larynx. This is why [b] and [d] sound muffled compared with their implosive counterparts. Thompson’s “sharply released” voiceless unaspirated syllable-initial stops [t] and [k] are strictly speaking not just that. What Thompson describes as “sharply released” is in fact a kind of ejective where the glottis is not completely closed (as in an ordinary ejective) but slightly open and ready for voicing. This is why with the Vietnamese voiceless unaspirated stops you don’t hear a subsequent glottal stop, as is the case with ordinary ejectives. Thompson’s “sharp” release of the Vietnamese voiceless unaspirated stops is in reality the typical popping sound of ejectives. The aspiration of Vietnamese “th” is actually quite weak and can be almost completely absent. The acoustic difference between “t” and “th” for the native speaker mainly lies in the different initiating processes, glottalic (a pop) and pulmonic (absence of the pop). Thus the three-way distinction among Vietnamese stops seems to be one of airstream initiation (pulmonic – ejective – implosive), rather than one of phonation (voiceless aspirated – voiceless unaspirated – voiced), with aspiration just a by-product of open-larynx pulmonic initiation. The above also applies in large measure to the phonetics/phonologies of Thai and Khmer, which apparently form a sprachbund with Vietnamese. Soundshift (talk) 15:45, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Contradictory info on ʐ
The article states that the red phonemes in the consonant table are exclusively northern consonants, a color that ʐ is marked with, yet the only mention of ʐ occurring in Vietnamese is as a phoneme in southern Vietnamese. I'm not an expert on the language, so I want to bring this to the attention of someone who knows if it really is a northern or southern consonant, and if this discrepancy could be corrected. AnyGuy (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

 * According to Phạm & McLeod (2016), "Standard" and Central dialects pronounce an orthographic r as /ʐ/, Northern dialects as /z/ (creating the r-z merger) or /r/, and Southern dialects as /ɣ/.
 * The introduction from the IPA on Hanoi Vietnamese mentions only /z/, no /ʐ/.
 * Thompson (1987) says that Hanoi has the r-z merger, whereas Saigon has a /j/ and a [r] that "varies rather widely in manner", which is being represented with /ɺ/ in the table.
 * English Wiktionary currently assigns /ʐ/ to Central Vietnamese only. E.g. rượu.

 * So in conclusion /ʐ/ is a realisation of /ɺ/ in Saigon, and a "standard reading pronunciation" in Hanoi, but a natively distinct phoneme in Hue (although it is simply the main realisation of the orthographic rhotic r).
 * Michael Ly (talk) 11:08, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Vietnamese phonology


text:
User talk:Riotgirl11gc

Hi - welcome to Wikipedia! I've just noticed your edit to Good Charlotte and your article on Good Charlotte Live. These aren't really written from a NPOV viewpoint, and it seems that you're actually promoting your own site, which is against Wikipedia policy. If this is the case, I'd say Good Charlotte Live is a candidate for deletion. Why not check out What Wikipedia is Not and Welcome, newcomers!. Good luck with your future edits! If you've got any questions, feel free to ask on my talkpage. Drw25 16:54, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Riotgirl11gc


text:
SLPP

SLPP may refer to:

 * Sierra Leone People's Party
 * Sri Lanka Podujana Peramuna (also known as Sri Lanka People's Front), a political party in Sri Lanka
 * Simple Loop Prevention Protocol (Nortel) (see Avaya Simple Loop Prevention Protocol)

title: SLPP


text:
Talk:Whitby Goth Weekend

from Vfd
On 18 Feb 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Votes for deletion/Whitby Gothic Weekend for a record of the discussion.

History
Might be worth filling in the older history? I know that the full line-ups from 1994 onwards are recorded in various places online, so we should be able to capture that info here. It might also be worth adding a bit more history text? Or maybe just a link to the Starvox history? Mrph 09:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks like we're getting there - but still more work to do... --Mrph 17:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Always sells out?
Well, I know that October 2006 has sold out. And it might be fair to say that it usually sells out these days. But I've turned up and purchased tickets from the info stall 'on the day' before - only anecdotal evidence, but if we're actively going to claim that it always sells out, I think we need a source to cite. --Mrph 17:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

"Alumni"?
I'm not really bothered by what the heading is, but is there some reason for using "Alumni" over "Line ups"? I'm not aware of any such usage of the word in this context (and especially misleading if we are listing band line-ups in the future).

As an aside, it is probably not a good idea to mark reversions as "minor" - please see Minor_edit. Thanks. Mdwh 22:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Wgw logo.GIF
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 19:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Listing bands by each night?
I agree that sorting into a table is nicer, but I'm suspicious that a lot of the information for older years is incorrect. Was the editor who made this change working from sources, or just randomly splitting into each day?

I just fixed errors for October 2004, and I can confirm it's correct for April 2004 (again from the official flyer), but I don't know apart from that.

In particular, October 2003 had four nights... Mdwh (talk) 16:41, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I've fixed October 2003 - reference is the official flyer (it lists Sunshine Blind instead of Faith and the Muse for Thursday, but I believe that was a change in bands after printing - the official website confirms this change Mdwh (talk) 17:07, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Whitby X
I think the numeric naming (as in X, X.V, etc) is wrong. Autumn 2003 was definitely branded as "Whitby X", not X.V. (source, an original programme owned by a friend, of which I have high res photos of all pages). I have a feeling April 2003 was "Whitby 10" and Autumn was "Whitby X", with April 2004 then being "Whitby 11". Can anyone who has promotional material from April 2003 conform this? 83.136.123.72 (talk) 17:00, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 5 one external links on Whitby Goth Weekend. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090223233654/http://wgw.topmum.co.uk:80/about/the-bands/ to http://wgw.topmum.co.uk/about/the-bands/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080726173914/http://wgw.topmum.co.uk/2006/03/21/wgw-april-2006-final-line-up/ to http://wgw.topmum.co.uk/2006/03/21/wgw-april-2006-final-line-up/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081226124305/http://wgw.topmum.co.uk:80/2007/05/09/addition-to-the-band-line-up/ to http://wgw.topmum.co.uk/2007/05/09/addition-to-the-band-line-up/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100605122720/http://wgw.topmum.co.uk:80/2010/04/15/spa-line-up/ to http://wgw.topmum.co.uk/2010/04/15/spa-line-up/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100605122740/http://wgw.topmum.co.uk:80/2010/05/06/confirmed-bands-for-october-2010/ to http://wgw.topmum.co.uk/2010/05/06/confirmed-bands-for-october-2010/

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"Whitby Goth Weekend" trademark?
Can you please clarify your line of thinking with your summary of "Anything unofficial referred to as 'Whitby Goth Weekend' is an infringement of Trademark" in this edit please?

It is not wikipedia's place to censor alleged trademark infringements, just to report the facts, as shown in reliable sources. Take this for example - Whitby Gazette - which clearly states that under the umbrella heading of "Whitby Goth weekend" there is an event on Thursday night at RAW, which is held in order to raise funds for the Sophie Lancaster foundation. This information is also - ironically - already present in the article itself, under the "history" heading, as is mention of the Monday evening beach barbie. Thursday is not a weekend, yet the events are included. Are these official or unofficial events? It doesn't matter - for the purposes of my edit they happena on a Monday/Thursday, ergo the term Whitby Goth Weekend does not just cover the weekend.

Or how about this nugget, taken from the WGW FAQ itself: "Q. Are there any other official events in the town? A. We run club nights at RAW nightclub on Baxtergate on the Thursday, Sunday & Monday of each festival. These nights are not covered by your ticket and must be paid for separately. " - so that's another official event, but not a weekend event.

Much like the term "Hoover" - and as noted in the Hoover article - WGW is recognised as meaning more than just the weekend, or even the weekend specific events, and whether you consider it a trademark infringement, that's no reason to exclude it.

Do you consider that the thousands of visitors in character and the equal number who arrive to see the characters are not part of the WGW, simply because they don't visit any of the gigs or events going on? If not, how would you describe them? Chaheel Riens (talk) 22:12, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

 * Additional - I've reinstated the text while it is discussed, as per WP:BRD - the text was boldly removed, then reverted - now discussion takes place. Also, suggesting that something is a trademark infringement isn't really justification for removal in the the first place.  If anything, it should be highlighted that other events are taking advantage of the term WGW.  Chaheel Riens (talk) 08:37, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I've copy-edited this a bit and expanded the bare IPO references.
 * Can we get some coverage in here for "Notby" too, the increasing tendency for 'Goths at the Seaside' to visit the town where their friends will be, but to take less part of the trademarked event. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm happy with the new layout and phrasing. Chaheel Riens (talk) 12:53, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Some other topics
Some other bits missing from coverage: Andy Dingley (talk) 11:33, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Goth-spotting tourism
 * 'Togs and the various "corsets on the gravestones" ructions
 * Steampunks

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100821140227/http://wgw.topmum.co.uk:80/2010/08/03/band-line-up-for-october-2010/ to http://wgw.topmum.co.uk/2010/08/03/band-line-up-for-october-2010/

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100701072712/http://wgw.topmum.co.uk:80/2010/04/20/april-2010-line-up-change/ to http://wgw.topmum.co.uk/2010/04/20/april-2010-line-up-change/

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Assessment comment
Substituted at 18:45, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Tomorrow's Ghosts Festival
Should this article include lineups for the "Tomorrow's Ghosts Festival", which is running bands at the Spa as a de facto replacement for the Whitby Goth Weekend? I think one could argue it either way since it is a de facto but not a de jure replacement; conversely the rump of WGW intends to continue organising something at Whitby.

I have a conflict of interest; I am not associated with Tomorrow's Ghosts, but I am dissatisfied with the "old" WGW regime and hope for the success of the replacement. I hope other editors with a conflict of interest will also declare it. Pinkbeast (talk) 00:35, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Whitby Goth Weekend


text:
Talk:Class (warez)

from Vfd
On 18 Feb 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Votes for deletion/Class (warez) for a record of the discussion.

Class on the C64
As noted by an anonymous editor, "Class" is also the name of a cracking group in 1990 for the Commodore 64, which can be confirmed by CSDb. Is there any evidence that the relationship of these two groups goes beyond their name similarity? —RaD Man (talk) 00:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Their first NFO seems to say no to that question. --Ipggi 03:53, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

UHA not ACE
the compression metods used by class is much more complex than simplily put a archive in a .ACE archive with right mouse button they disassemble the sound and compress it with an copressor designed to sound use UHARC to copress the remainder and after this divide in several ACE copressed parts and oftentimes create their own installers.

the same compression is used by TECHNIC.

Image
I'm addin an image of crackto intro... ITS NOT WAREZ OR PIRATE MATERIAL! Just an intro, with 3D animation and stuff, itn't not an installer... Does nothing, only shows graphic and music (chiptunes). --R2cyberpunk 03:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Class endtro demo.PNG
Image:Class endtro demo.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyway i'm sure Moonlord didn't copyright this endtro, but who cares... I won't add image again. --R2cyberpunk (talk) 14:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

CLASS (warez) → Class (warez) – Firstly, proper disambiguation is "warez group" (entity that pirates), not "warez" (actual pirated material). Secondly, per MOS:TM and WP:TITLE, we don't stylize "Paradox" unless exclusively known by that stylization. However, I realize this is borderline WP:COMMONNAME, so taking to requested moves instead of moving myself. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 12:08, 15 August 2011 (UTC) See also: Talk:PARADOX (warez)
 * The move looks reasonable to me. bobrayner (talk) 20:04, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Updated to Class (warez) per one of two WP:NCDAB alternatives which is closer to Category:Warez groups. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:12, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:ALLCAPS and MOS:TM. Jenks24 (talk) 09:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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title: Talk:Class (warez)


text:
User talk:StuTheSheep

Hi, you can call me StuTheSheep, or Stu for short. My interests are wide-ranging, but are mostly focused on science, particularly physics, and history. I've been using Wikipedia as a resource since about November 2004, and began adding and editing in February 2005.

Category

 * See Category talk:Physics:
 * You are free to restore the notice on the category:physics page if the additions did not address your concern. I merely commented out the notice. Ancheta Wis 11:50, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Principle of relativity
Since you wrote the article on the subject, I have a question I want to ask you. My understanding of the principle of relativity is that (among other things) it requires the laws of physics to be the same in all frames of reference. I want to be sure that this is absolutely true, or if it is only true for inertial frames. The reason I ask is because I linked the frames of reference page to the principle of relativity page. StuTheSheep 16:55, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi Stu,
 * It is important to appreciate the distinction between properties of the way laws are formulated and properties of physics itself. The two are closely connected, but they are not exactly the same.

 * In terms of pure properties of physics: it's only in inertial frames that the physics is the same everywhere. When a force is accelerating an object (for example an accelerometer) then there is acceleration with respect to inertial motion. Without going into symmetry and non-symmetry now, suffce it to say that velocity is fundamentally relative, but acceleration is absolute with respect to the inertial reference frames.

 * A 'frame of reference' is of course a human abstract thought, it is not a physics phenomenon. Very often people find it easier to formulate ideas in terms of properties of 'frames of reference'. What has crept in, I think. is that sometimes people assign a status of being a physics thing, to a frame of reference. I think it is a good exercise (and a measure of physics understanding) to try and phrase a dynamics phenomenon in such a way that the expression 'frame of reference' is not used.

 * Using a high level of mathematical abstraction, it is possible to formulate for example Newton's laws of motion in such a way that the formulation is the same in all reference frames including rotating and otherwise accelerating frames. That would be a unnecessarily tedious formulation to use, but it is possible. This is called 'covariance'. However, covariance is a property of the formulation of the law(s) of physics, this property doesn't necessarily describe a property of nature. --Cleon Teunissen 21:36, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * The measurements that an observer makes about a system generally depend on the observer's velocity relative to that system. Every relative velocity corresponds with a particular set of measurements. Each set of measurements can be used as input for calculations, and each set of measurements shows that the same laws of motion hold. Only the group of measurement sets done by observers that are in inertial motion with respect to the system that is being measured share this property.

 * An observer in circular motion needs to adjust for that when performing calcultations. This adjustment always refers to an inertial reference frame, for the laws of motion only hold good in inertial reference frames. --Cleon Teunissen 22:26, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing that up for me. StuTheSheep 05:40, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

 * I cannot resist adding some remarks. As I write in the current 'principle of relativity' article: in general relativity the description of gravity and of inertia are unified into a theory of geometro-dynamics. In geometro-dynamics, inertia is not described as a property of objects, but as a property of the interaction of matter with space-time geometry. I think the following interpretation is very interesting: by flying apart, the matter in the universe is creating the volume of space-time. Chunks of matter are interacting with their local space-time. With space-time acting as mediator across vast stretches of time, chunks of matter are interacting with all of the matter in the universe, and thus they have the inertia they have. (Mind you, that is an interpretation of what the mathematics of general relativity might mean.)
 * Spinning gyroscopes maintain their alignment, if they are suspended sufficiently frictionless. Effectively, spinning gyroscopes take an astronomical measurement. As they are being spun up, they 'lock on' to the orientation they happen to point to at that particular moment. Shifting the orientation of this 'locking on' requires a force. For an observer in a module who is confined to local measurement there is very little possibility of detecting a difference between being accelerated by a force in a straight line or gravity being opposed by a force. But rotation of the module can be measured locally in a number of ways, among them monitoring a frictionfree suspended spinning gyroscope. See also Gravity Probe B and frame dragging --Cleon Teunissen 10:26, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

AfD aka VfD on Philosophical interpretation of classical physics
We could use your opinion on this article at Articles for deletion/Philosophical interpretation of classical physics

I have nominated as original research but feel that it is important to solicit additional opinions on the matter before an administrator is forced to make a decision. As I mention in the discussion on the AfD page - I think the underlying idea - to discuss the impact of classical Newtonian physics has had on other discpiplines and the impact that QM should (but in many cases has not fully) had on those same disciplines - is an interesting one; however, I need help in determining if existing article should be the starting point for such a discussion (or if this topic is covered elsewhere). Thx in adv - Trödel| talk  10:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Total re-write of the main Physics page is in progess
You might like to join us at Physics/wip where a total re-write of the main Physics page is in progess. At present we're discussing the lead paragraphs for the new version, and how Physics should be defined. I've posted here because you are on the Physics Project participant list. --MichaelMaggs 08:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Physics participation
You received this message because your were on the old list of WikiProject Physics participants.

On 2008-06-25, the WikiProject Physics participant list was rewritten from scratch as a way to remove all inactive participants, and to facilitate the coordination of WikiProject Physics efforts. The list now contains more information, is easier to browse, is visually more appealing, and will be maintained up to date.

If you still are an active participant of WikiProject Physics, please add yourself to the current list of WikiProject Physics participants. Headbomb {ταλκ – WP Physics: PotW} 16:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:StuTheSheep


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Good Charlotte Live

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. Joyous 03:14, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)

Good Charlotte Live
Promotion of own website Drw25 17:01, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Come on, if anyone wants to find this, they'd search for the band name Good Charlotte, not the name of the website of the band. This is just stupid advertising. Average Earthman 17:58, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * This should be a speedy deletion—it's really nothing more than a link. Postdlf 18:12, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not even the band's web site. This is just an "ad" for a fan site. Vanity is perhaps the more accurate raison d'eletion. :) HyperZonktalk 18:26, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Ad. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 20:14, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ad for a fan site. Zzyzx11 00:16, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, website advertisement, band vanity. Megan1967 03:23, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


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User:Grm wnr

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lumber room — evil böxen —  Grammy Beta™

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title: User:Grm wnr


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Category:Stutz vehicles

Automobiles produced by the Stutz Motor Company

title: Category:Stutz vehicles


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Talk:Tâmega (river)

Untitled
It would be interesting to investigate the etymology of the name of this river. It strikes me the number of rivers in Galicia with names that begin with Tam- (like Tambre, Tamuxe and Támoga). Could these etymologies be related to the the name of the river Thames, which is thought to derive from a Celtic (Brythonic) expression that meant "dark waters"?

<> From the article "Thames" --62.6.139.10 14:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Spam
Iberdrola bots laid it really thickly on this one: Build a hydro damm and that reduces pollution and overextraction? Causation and all that. Tuvalkin (talk) 02:17, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tâmega (river)


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User:Ronincyberpunk

My name is Patrick, I've been a long time Wikipedia contributor (anonymously for the most part) I signed up a while ago and then never really logged in or put anything to work. It was the article in Wired which spurned me to finally get logged in and get to work.

My main self assigned duty is anti-vandalism work, but I've also written a few articles and modified a few in hopes of helping this gargantuan project.

You can find me on the irc.freenode.net server in #wikipedia as 'Phineas'

title: User:Ronincyberpunk


text:
Saint John's Co-Cathedral

St John's Co-Cathedral (Kon-Katidral ta' San Ġwann) is a Catholic co-cathedral in Valletta, Malta, dedicated to Saint John the Baptist. It was built by the Order of St. John between 1573 and 1578, having been commissioned by Grand Master Jean de la Cassière as the Conventual Church of Saint John (Knisja Konventwali ta' San Ġwann).

The church was designed by the Maltese architect Girolamo Cassar, who designed several of the more prominent buildings in Valletta. In the 17th century, its interior was redecorated in the Baroque style by Mattia Preti and other artists. The interior of the church is considered to be one of the finest examples of high Baroque architecture in Europe.

History
Following the Great Siege of 1565, St. John's Co-Cathedral was commissioned in 1572 by Jean de la Cassière, Grand Master of the Order of St. John. It was initially named, in the Italian common language of the time, as Chiesa Conventuale di San Giovanni Battista. The church was designed by the Maltese architect Girolamo Cassar, who was also responsible for the construction of many important buildings in Valletta. It is held that Cassar went to Rhodes to bring a plan of an already existing church that was by then converted to a Mosque, to use it as a model for the present co-cathedral. However Cassar still took decisions over the final design and made modifications, and thus became the sole architect of the co-cathedral. Once St. John's was completed in 1577, it became the new conventual church of the Order instead of St. Lawrence's Church in the Order's former headquarters Birgu. Construction of the oratory and sacristy began in 1598, during the magistracy of Martin Garzez, and they were completed by Grand Master Alof de Wignacourt in 1604.

For the first century of its existence, the church's interior was modestly decorated. However, in the 1660s, Grand Master Raphael Cotoner ordered the redecoration of the interior so as to rival the churches of Rome. Calabrian artist Mattia Preti was in charge of the embellishment, and effectively completely transformed the interior in the Baroque style. The annexes on the side of the cathedral were added later and feature the coat of arms of Grand Master António Manoel de Vilhena who reigned from 1722 to 1736.

St. John's remained the conventual church of the Order until the latter was expelled from Malta with the French occupation in 1798. Over time, the church grew to equal prominence with the archbishop's cathedral at Mdina. In the 1820s, the Bishop of Malta was allowed to use St John's as an alternative see and it thus formally became a co-cathedral.

In 1831, Sir Walter Scott called the cathedral a "magnificent church, the most striking interior [he had] ever seen." In the mid-19th century, Giuseppe Hyzler, a leader of the Nazarene movement, removed some of the Baroque art of the cathedral, including the ornate altar in the Chapel of the Langue of France.

The cathedral's exterior was slightly damaged by aerial bombardment in 1941, during World War II, barely escaping total destruction. The contents of the cathedral had been transferred elsewhere before the bombardment, so no works of art were lost.

The cathedral was restored between the late 1980s and the early 1990s. In 2001, the St. John's Co-Cathedral Foundation was set up to administer and conserve the cathedral and its museum. The sides of the cathedral were restored between 2008 and 2010, and a complete restoration of the exterior began in July 2014 directed by architect Jean Frendo and eight restorers. Restoration of the central part of the façade was completed in September 2015 and project completion was expected in 2017.

Today, the cathedral is one of the most popular tourist attractions in Malta, and is listed on the National Inventory of the Cultural Property of the Maltese Islands.

Exterior
The cathedral's exterior is built in the Mannerist style typical of its architect Girolamo Cassar. Its façade is rather plain but well-proportioned, being bounded by two large bell towers. The doorway is flanked by Doric columns supporting an open balcony from which the Grand Master used to address the people on important occasions. On the side are also two empty niches. The niches and the columns are a break with the rest of exterior Mannerist architecture.

Overall, the exterior is rather austere and reminiscent of a fortress, reflecting both Cassar's style as a military engineer as well as the Order's mood in the years following the Great Siege of Malta in 1565.

Interior

The cathedral's interior is extremely ornate, standing in sharp contrast with the façade. The interior was largely decorated by Mattia Preti, the Calabrian artist and knight, at the height of the Baroque period. Preti designed the intricate carved stone walls and painted the vaulted ceiling and side altars with scenes from the life of John the Baptist. The figures painted into the ceiling next to each column initially appear to the viewer as three-dimensional statues, but on closer inspection we see that the artist cleverly created an illusion of three-dimensionality by his use of shadows and placement. Also noteworthy is the fact that the carving was all undertaken in-place (in-situ) rather than being carved independently and then attached to the walls (stucco). The Maltese limestone from which the cathedral is built lends itself particularly well to such intricate carving. The whole marble floor is an entire series of tombs, housing about 400 Knights and officers of the Order. There is also a crypt containing the tombs of Grand Masters like Philippe Villiers de L'Isle-Adam, Claude de la Sengle, Jean Parisot de Valette, and Alof de Wignacourt.

In 1666, a project for the main altar by Malta's greatest sculptor, Melchiorre Cafà, was approved and begun. Cafà intended a large sculpture group in bronze depicting the Baptism of Christ. Following Cafà's tragic death in 1667 in a foundry accident while tending to this work in Rome, the plans were abandoned. Only in 1703, Giuseppe Mazzuoli, Cafà's only pupil, finished a marble group of the Baptism of Christ which might have been influenced by his master's undocumented designs but certainly is strongly dependent on a small baptism group by Alessandro Algardi.

The funerary monument of Grand Master Marc'Antonio Zondadari (died 1722), nephew of Pope Alexander VII, is located close to the main entrance. It was originally meant to be installed in the Chapel of the Langue of Italy, but it was too large so it was placed in the nave.

Chapels

The cathedral contains nine chapels, one dedicated to Our Lady of Philermos and the rest dedicated to the patron saints of each of the Order's eight langues (or divisions). The following chapels are located on the south side of the church:

 * Chapel of Our Lady of Philermos, also known as the Chapel of the Blessed Sacrament – originally contained an icon of Our Lady of Philermos, which had been in the possession of the Order since the Crusades. The icon was taken to Russia by Grand Master Ferdinand von Hompesch zu Bolheim when the Order was expelled from Malta in 1798, and it is now found at the National Museum of Montenegro.
 * Chapel of the Langue of Auvergne – dedicated to Saint Sebastian. Its altarpiece depicts the saint's martyrdom, and dates back to the 17th century. The chapel contains the funerary monument of Grand Master Annet de Clermont-Gessant (died 1660).
 * Chapel of the Langue of Aragon – dedicated to Saint George. Its altarpiece is Saint George on Horseback, and it is considered to be one of Mattia Preti's masterpieces. Grand Masters Martin de Redin (died 1660), Raphael Cotoner (died 1663), Nicolas Cotoner (died 1680) and Ramon Perellos y Roccaful (died 1720) are buried in funerary monuments in this chapel.
 * Chapel of the Langue of Castile, Leon and Portugal – dedicated to Saint James. Its altarpiece depicts the saint in an aesthetically pleasing manner, and it is the work of Mattia Preti. Grand Masters António Manoel de Vilhena (died 1736) and Manuel Pinto da Fonseca (died 1773) are buried in ornate marble funerary monuments in this chapel.

On the north side of the church, one finds the following chapels:
 * Chapel of the Anglo-Bavarian Langue, also known as the Chapel of Relics – dedicated to Saint Charles Borromeo. Its altarpiece depicts the presentation of the saint to the Virgin Mary, and it is attributed to Beaumont. The chapel originally contained many relics that the Order acquired through the centuries, but these were removed in 1798.
 * Chapel of the Langue of Provence – dedicated to Saint Michael the Archangel. Its altarpiece depicts the archangel leading God's armies against Satan, and it also contains marble funerary monuments of Grand Masters Antoine de Paule (died 1636) and Giovanni Paolo Lascaris (died 1657).
 * Chapel of the Langue of France – dedicated to the Conversion of Saint Paul. Its altarpiece depicts The Conversion of St Paul on the Way to Damascus, and it is the work of Mattia Preti. The chapel also contains the funerary monuments of Grand Masters Adrien de Wignacourt (died 1697) and Emmanuel de Rohan-Polduc (died 1797), as well as the Marquis de Wignacourt (died 1615) and Louis Charles, Count of Beaujolais (died 1808). Parts of the chapel were redecorated in the late 1830s.
 * Chapel of the Langue of Italy – dedicated to the Immaculate Conception and Saint Catherine of Alexandria. Its altarpiece depicts The Mystic Marriage of St Catherine, and it is the work of Mattia Preti. The chapel also contains the funerary monument of Grand Master Gregorio Carafa (died 1690).
 * Chapel of the Langue of Germany – dedicated to the Epiphany of Christ. The chapel was originally assigned to the langue of England, but was given to the langue of Germany following the English Reformation. Its altarpiece depicts The Adoration of the Magi by the Maltese painter Stefano Erardi.

Notable works of art

The painting depicting The Beheading of Saint John the Baptist (1608) by Caravaggio (1571–1610) is the most famous work in the church. Considered one of Caravaggio's masterpieces, the largest canvas he painted and the only painting signed by the painter, the canvas is displayed in the Oratory for which it was painted. Restored in the late 1990s in Florence, this painting is one of Caravaggio's most impressive uses of the chiaroscuro style for which he is most famous with a circle of light illuminating the scene of St John's beheading at the request of Salome. The oratory also houses Caravaggio's Saint Jerome Writing (1607–1608).

Another impressive feature of the church is the collection of marble tombstones in the nave in which were buried important knights. The more important knights were placed closer to the front of the church. These tombstones, richly decorated with in-laid marble and with the coats of arms of the knight buried below as well as images relevant to that knight, often telling a story of triumph in battle, form a rich visual display in the church.

Adjoining to the church is the St John's Co-Cathedral Museum containing art objects. Among the contents of the museum there are the Flemish Tapestries designed by Peter Paul Rubens, which were donated by Grand Master Ramon Perellos y Roccaful, paintings of Grand Masters Jean de la Cassière, Nicolas Cotoner and Manuel Pinto da Fonseca, and paintings which were formerly in the side chapels such as St. George killing the Dragon by Francesco Potenzano.

Visiting

St. John's Co-Cathedral is located in the centre of Valletta, and it is a short walk away from the bus terminus near City Gate. The main entrance of the cathedral is in St John's Square, but the visitors' entrance is from Great Siege Square in Republic Street, facing the Law Courts.

The cathedral is open to the public from Mondays to Fridays between 10:30 and 14:30 (last admission at 14:00), and on Saturdays between 09:30 and 12:30 (last admission at 12:00). It is closed on Sundays and public holidays. As of October 2022, the entrance fee is €15 for adults, €12 for students or senior citizens, while children under the age of 12 enter free of charge when accompanied by an adult. This fee includes the provision of audio guides available in Maltese, English, Italian, French, German, Spanish, Japanese and Russian.

People visiting the cathedral for Mass only do not have to pay the entrance fee.

title: Saint John's Co-Cathedral


text:
La Cantuta massacre

La Cantuta massacre took place in Peru on 18 July 1992, during the presidency of Alberto Fujimori. Supposed members of Shining Path, including a university professor and nine students from Lima's La Cantuta University, were abducted, tortured, and killed by Grupo Colina, a military death squad. The incident occurred two days after the Shining Path's Tarata bombing, which killed over 40 people in Lima Province.

The massacre was one of the crimes cited in the conviction of Fujimori on 7 April 2009, for human rights abuses.

Context
The Enrique Guzmán y Valle National Education University (Universidad Nacional de Educación Enrique Guzmán y Valle, or "UNE"; better known as "La Cantuta", from the neighbourhood in which it stands) was founded as a teacher-training college in 1822, granted its university charter in 1965, closed down by the military government in 1977, and reopened in 1980.

Because of its remote location, far away from the centre of Lima, the fact that most of its students hailed from the impoverished interior of the country, and that most of them intended to enter the highly politicised teaching profession, La Cantuta gained a reputation as hotbed of radical politics, such as communism and anarchism as early as the late 1950s and early 1960s. A series of student-led protest actions on the campus — including the blocking of the railway line linking Lima with the interior of the country — that led to the suspension of its activities in 1977.

With the return of democratic rule in 1980, President Belaúnde reopened the university. The radical elements among the students and lecturers were quick to return, and by the mid-1980s the country's two main insurgent groups, Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso) and the Túpac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA), had a strong presence on campus, being widely regarded as 2 very legitimate organisations. This was in spite of operations such as that of 13 February 1987, when 4000 police officers conducted night-time raids at the dormitories of three state universities (including La Cantuta); 20 April 1989, when a joint force of police and army descended on La Cantuta University and San Marcos National University and arrested over 500 students on charges of subversion; or 22 May 1991, when, in response to a hostage crisis and rumors of an explosive device squirreled away on campus, Fujimori sent the army in to restore law and order at La Cantuta. Graffiti alluding to Sendero Luminoso and its leader, Abimael Guzmán, were painted over with patriotic slogans; students went about their business only after passing checkpoints and under close supervision from the armed forces; and the campus remained under military control for several years.

Abduction of July 1992
In the pre-dawn hours of 18 July 1992, two days after the Tarata bombing, members of the Army Intelligence Service (SIE) and the Army Directorate of Intelligence (DINTE), most of whom were attached to the recently established Grupo Colina death squad, burst into the residences of the Enrique Guzmán y Valle National University.

Once inside, the troops forced all the students to leave their rooms and lie belly-down on the floor. Nine students believed to be linked to the Tarata Bombing — Bertila Lozano Torres, Dora Oyague Fierro, Luis Enrique Ortiz Perea, Armando Richard Amaro Cóndor, Robert Édgar Teodoro Espinoza, Heráclides Pablo Meza, Felipe Flores Chipana, Marcelino Rosales Cárdenas, and Juan Gabriel Mariños Figueroa — were separated from the others and taken away. Meanwhile, in the staff residences, a group of soldiers broke into the home of professor Hugo Muñoz Sánchez. After searching his bedroom, they gagged the professor and led him away.

Prosecutions and amnesty
In April 1993, a group of Peruvian military officers anonymously released a document detailing the events at La Cantuta. Their document claimed the death squad had abducted the victims, tortured and murdered them, and then hurriedly buried them; later, they claimed, after questions had been raised in Congress, that the armed forces had exhumed, incinerated, and reburied the bodies in another location. The military whistleblowers named the members of Grupo Colina involved, identified the operations chief as Major Santiago Martín Rivas, and suggested that the group operated on the orders of Vladimiro Montesinos, head of the National Intelligence Service (SIN) and a close advisor to President Fujimori.

On 6 May, Lt. Gen. Humberto Robles Espinoza, the army's third highest-ranking officer, publicly denounced a number of human rights violations committed by the SIN and the armed forces, including the La Cantuta killings. He was later dismissed from duty and subjected to death threats, and finally fled the country for political asylum in Argentina.

In June 1993, Justo Arizapana Vicente, a recycler, and his friend Guillermo Cataroca, leaked a marked map to congress man Roger Cáceres Velásquez and Radio Comas journalist Juan Jara Berrospi. Cáceres then shared the map with Ricardo Uceda at the news magazine Sí, who published it in July of that year. Mariella Barreto, an agent of the Peruvian Army Intelligence Service, is also sometimes credited with leaking this map to a Peruvian magazine. An investigation of the site indicated on the map by the public prosecutor revealed four clandestine graves. Forensic tests conducted on the remains, and on another set of bones found at another site, revealed that they belonged to Muñoz Sánchez and the students Luis Enrique Ortiz Perea, Armando Amaro Condor, and Juan Gabriel Mariños Figueroa, and that at least some of them had been tortured prior to receiving an execution-style coup-de-grâce to the base of the neck. Barreto was murdered some years later: her decapitated and dismembered corpse, showing signs of ante-mortem torture, was found in March 1997. A few weeks after Mariella Barreto's death, her colleague Leonor La Rosa, was on TV in a hospital bed, declaring she had been tortured and that Barreto had been killed in retaliation for leaking information to the press about the Groupo Colina's plan to intimidate journalists and politicians from the opposition.

The military authorities had begun an investigation into the killings in May 1993. In addition, in December 1993, a civilian prosecutor filed criminal charges against several named members of the military. A conflict of jurisdiction thus arose between the military and civilian courts. The controversy was placed before the Supreme Court which, on 3 February 1994, ruled that it was unable to reach agreement on which venue should apply. Consequently, on the night of 7 February, Congress enacted a new law whereby the Supreme Court could decide such matters with a simple majority, instead of a unanimous vote. By a three-to-two vote of the Supreme Court's criminal division, the case was placed under military jurisdiction.

On 21 February 1994, the Supreme Council of Military Justice (CSJM) sentenced ten of the perpetrators to prison sentences of between one and 20 years.

Following Fujimori's landslide re-election in April 1995, in another all-night session on 14 June 1995, Congress enacted law No. 26479, the "Amnesty Law", ordering the release of all police officers, soldiers, and civil servants convicted of or charged with civilian or military crimes during Peru's War on Terrorism. On 15 July, the Supreme Council of Military Justice ordered the release of all the individuals convicted for the La Cantuta killings.

Repeal of the Amnesty Law
The Amnesty Law was repealed after the Fujimori government in 2000 and, on 21 March 2001, Attorney General Nelly Calderón presented charges against Fujimori, accusing him of being one of the "co-authors" of this massacre and of the 1991 Barrios Altos massacre. She presented evidence that Fujimori, acting in concert with SIN supremo Vladimiro Montesinos, exercised control over Grupo Colina. The charges alleged that the group could not have committed crimes of this magnitude without Fujimori's express orders or consent, and that the formation and function of the Colina group was part of an overall counter-insurgency policy that involved systematic violations of human rights.

Prosecutions and apology
In November 2005, Fujimori was detained in Chile. Peruvian authorities filed for his extradition to face charges arising from various incidents during his presidency, including the La Cantuta massacre, and he was returned to Peru on 22 September 2007.

On 8 April 2008, a court found a number of people, including Julio Salazar, guilty of kidnapping, homicide, and forced disappearance.

In October 2007, pursuant to a 2006 ruling from the Inter-American Court of Human Rights, the government extended a formal apology for the massacre and undertook to make amends to the victims' next-of-kin, including compensation in the amount of US$1.8 million.

Fujimori's trial
During the trial of Alberto Fujimori, it was asserted by former Colina member José William Tena Jacinto that at least two of the victims were positively identified as Shining Path members.

Lieutenant Aquilino Portella and the Dean of the Social Science Department of the University, Claudio Cajahuaringa, have also claimed that Professor Hugo Muñoz Sánchez and student Bertila Lozano Torres were involved with Shining Path. In the case of Lozano, it was claimed that documents allegedly in her possession revealed that she was indeed an actual member of the insurgent organization.

In 2009 it was determined by a judicial ruling that not a single one of the victims in La Cantuta massacre was linked to any terrorist organization, it was in the same ruling that condemned Fujimori to a 25 years imprisonment for crimes against humanity.

title: La Cantuta massacre


text: User talk:205.213.21.1

title: User talk:205.213.21.1


text:
Category:Marina Militare

Everything related to Italian Navy Marina Militare

title: Category:Marina Militare


text:
Talk:Maia Morgenstern

"Morning Star"
"Her surname Morgenstern means "Morning Star" a title of the Virgin Mary". Of course, it's also a title of Lucifer. Does this really belong in the article? If so, I'd much rather see a citation of Mel Gibson or some such saying this. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:07, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * Gibson cuts in. "You want to hear something else? One of the spiritual names for Mary was 'the morning star' (which in German translates to 'morgenstern')."
 * USA Today Bogdan | Talk 18:16, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Great, I'll get that citation in there if someone doesn't beat me to it! -- Jmabel | Talk 19:56, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Maia Morgenstern