text:
Talk:Lingua Franca Nova

The Conjugation Table: It seems really pointless to me. All verbs conjugate the same no matter whether it ends in "ar", "er", or "ir". Also, the conjugations are given in text above it.

Your thoughts?

I quite agree. I'm sure whoever put it there was well intentioned, but it gives the impression that lfn actually has three different classes of verbs and a full range of inflexions, which is, of course, not true. I removed it, but did separate the present/past/future sentences to make the simplicity more obvious.

I also removed the "our father" that seems to have been added by the same well-intentioned person. I don't think it is wise to compare lfn with esperanto or interlingua. It needs to stand on its own.

George Boeree

Why did you remove the our father?--Jondel 04:26, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

In the context of Wikipedia, it did not seem appropriate to present the language in any one particular religion. In the LFN wiki, there are a number of translations of texts, Old Testament, New Testament, Buddhist Sutras.... Anyone is welcome to add more in any religious tradition.

George Boeree

I removed the suggestions for the Greek alphabet. Because they are merely suggestions, they do not belong in an "official" overview of LFN.

George Boeree

Shouldn't the Greek alphabet suggestions still appear in this article? It is, after all, an encyclopedia. As long as it is clearly marked as a suggestion, and does not seem to be "set in stone."

King Hajj

Orthography section?
The section on pronunciation also contains some orthographic information (such as using k for c.) Should there be a seperate section for orthography? Or, perhaps, should the pronunciation section simply be retitled "Pronunciation and Orthography"? --24.23.48.248 09:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Total number of speakers
30 seems unrealistically precise. Wouldn't < 100 be a better alternative? Besides, does anyone have a reference for the number of speakers? MrTroy 14:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 30 is probably the number of members of the LFN Yahoo Group, though only a few of those members regularly post. Most, I would assume, are like me, and only read what others post.
 * In that case there are probably a lot more speakers. Many people regard mailing groups as outdated: I doubt every LFN-speaker is a member of the group. MrTroy 09:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Then the question arises, if they don't use LFN on a mailing list, where do they use it? How have they achieved fluency? I can't see a lot of messaging going on except among people who have previously extablished some kind of relationship via (e.g.) a mailing list.--CJGB (Chris) 12:58, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems that some write for the LFN wiki. But fluency in a language such as LFN can be easily achieved on one's own! Agricolaplenus
 * I rather beg to differ. Mastery of a language is two-sided, and cannot be measured without actual interaction. I learned Esperanto from books in my early teens and thought I was fluent. But when I actually met other Esperantists and began to (try to) converse with them, and to correspond in the language, I discovered that I was far less fluent than I thought. fluent: 2 a: capable of using a language easily and accurately   (Merriam-Webster Online) Thnidu (talk) 00:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

If speakers refers to the number of people who speak (converse in) the language, then surely the number is close to zero. Encoding text into an auxlang with the help of dictionaries and grammar rules is considerably different from actually speaking a language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.30.241.48 (talk) 06:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of r
The article states that the r is lightly trilled as in Spanish, i.e. //. However, in the samples, the r is pronounced as. It's not trilled. Are the examples wrong, or is the article? MrTroy 09:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Listening carefully to the three examples, I hear, not . Agricolaplenus

Uicipedia/Yикиπедиа
Do any of you guys think that LFN has enuf speakers to warrant a Wikipedia?Cameron Nedland 13:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, that's why they have their own at http://lfn.esef.net/index.php/Paje_Prima . Once there the wiki there is complete, and there are more speakers, LFN might earn itself a place in the official Wikipedia.--Kinghajj 01:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

LFN has as much if not more support than Novial which was recently accepted for its own Wikipedia. The difference is that as a newly-created language LFN has more to prove and they (we) are content to take their time. Wikipedia's not going anywhere so there's no rush. Mithridates 01:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Copyright of language
This article says the language is not copyrighted. I didn't even think a language could be copyrighted. Does anyone have a link which gives more information about this? Guyjohnston

 * Loglan was claimed to be copyrighted... AnonMoos 16:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

HELP making new account
I've been trying to make a new account at the non-Wikipedia LFN wiki for a few hours now, and I can't understand how to do so.

I click "Crea un conta o sinia per entra" and try to login, because that's my only choice. Then it says "use the form below to make a new account" and there is no form.

Page of reference: Please help. Chuffable 02:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi - I left a message on the LFN group regarding this. There was quite a bit of spam for a while and the wiki was changed to only allow registered users to edit. I tried changing the login settings myself but I'm not all that proficient in MediaWiki. I'll write on your talk page when it's fixed. Mithridates 04:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Still nothing after two weeks. Is this at all a priority to you fellows? Chuffable 21:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion discussion
Please bring further deletion-related discussion on the deletion discussion page. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

stress rule
Quoting the article: 2 contradicts 1: casas 'houses' is pronounced "CA-sas", not "ca-SAS" as would follow from 1. The statement of stress should be corrected to reflect that it applies only to the base form of the word. Thnidu (talk) 19:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Stress is on the vowel before the last consonant or, if that is not possible, on the first vowel. For example la casa de me tio ("my uncle's house") is pronounced "la CA-sa de me TI-o."
 * 2) To make a noun plural, add -s if the noun ends in a vowel, or -es if the noun ends in a consonant. It never alters the original stress of the word.

 * How about this: Stress is on the vowel before the last consonant or, if that is not possible, on the first vowel. For example, la casa de me tio ("my uncle's house") is pronounced "la CA-sa de me TI-o." Plural vowels have the same stress as their singular counterparts. For example, la casas es bela ("the houses are beautiful") is pronounced "la CA-sas es BE-la." --24.10.63.237 (talk) 06:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

 * It now reads The one exception is the plural in -s or -es, which does not alter the original stress. That covers it. Thnidu (talk) 02:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Article issue templates
In this edit, Saizai removed the issue tags "notable", "primarysources", and "self-published" with the explanation that "claims of WP:NOT and WP:SPS were found to be wanting in the AfD." Please note that the AfD, in which the primary arguments for deletion centered on a lack of reliable third-party sources to established notability, closed without consensus. Until there is consensus that these issues have been resolved, the tags should remain. -- Schaefer (talk) 03:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * LFN is notable enough I think, the fact it has an ISO code will say enough. Evenso the number of interwikis. --OosWesThoesBes (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * From WP:NOTE: "A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." I can't see how the ISO page referenced, which contains not even one complete sentence of information on LFN, could be considered "significant coverage". If "Name: Lingua Franca Nova / Satus: Active / Scope: Individual / Type: Constructed" is considered significant coverage, then I'd love to see an example of what insignificant coverage would look like. -- Schaefer (talk) 17:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the ISO people BEGIN with the application, then go to the sources and investigate them. They are professional linguists. Many requests are denied. You should really become more familiar with a topic before you take up a crusade. I suggest that people who are involved in the constructed languages community are far better equipped to judge the value of articles in that domain. I don't judge Schaefer's articles or Amir's (though I might note that the stub for his Latin teacher, peace be unto her, contains no references at all). This business of being an "immediatist and deletionist," as Schaefer proudly declares, seems a far more biased orientation than anything some of us well-meaning language people might have. This is remarkably frustrating to me. I am 56, I have a PhD, I have been teaching for 30 years (including psycholinguistics), my language project is intended to revitalize discussion of an international auxiliary language.... and yet a simple article is repeatedly attacked by authoritarian types with no visible credentials. In the meantime, wikipedia is filled to the brim with garage bands, obscure local footballers, and porn actresses. I you want to improve the image of wikipedia, why not start with those? Or is the prospect of being overwhelmed by ignorant masses of angry fans too frightening? I used to love wikipedia. Now, not so much. Cgboeree (talk) 21:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Please see WP:NPA. -- Schaefer (talk) 22:26, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

My comments are not directed at persons, but at their actions. See WP:NPA Cgboeree (talk) 22:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

 * First things first - Peace be upon her?! My Latin teacher is very much alive and well. I wrote that silly little article long before i learned Wikipedia's rules about referencing. I really should take responsibility about it and add better sources, but in the meantime, if you try googling her name, you'll find that she passes the notability test with flying colors. If you think that she doesn't, you are welcome to butcher that article with articleissues templates or nominate it for deletion.

 * Am i an "authoritarian with no visible credentials"? As for credentials - i don't have a degree yet, but i am studying for a B.A. in Linguistics, which is a tiny bit more than nothing at all. As for authoritarian - it's quite ridiculous to call me that, but one thing you and everyone on WP should understand is that on WP everyone is equal and no-one is authoritarian, and no-one can be authoritarian. No, not even the admins. Really. This site doesn't have an editorial committee or anything of that kind; this site doesn't have a group of "they", who decide what goes in and what stays outside. You decide. Wikipedia's policies and decisions are made by consensus and boldness of completely random people who simply give a damn.

 * I very much understand your frustration about footballers and porn actresses. I don't like this either. I don't go to a crusade against them, because there are experienced Wikipedians fighting excessive porn articles. Footballers are a mess too, not just because of their articles' repetitiveness and borderline notability, but because they create a lot of boring work for compulsive disambiguation links fixers like myself. I also speedily deleted one footballer the other day. I don't like the frequent attacks against bands articles, being a musician myself, but i deleted a few of those, too, and i won't dare to create an article about my band yet at least until we release an album.

 * I do go to a crusade against possibly problematic conlangs, because as a student of Linguistics, that's a subject about which i know a thing or two. There are sites that accept info about conlangs easily, such as LangMaker and Omniglot. Wikipedia is not such a site and i strongly believe that it shouldn't be. Wikipedia is that one site, which - i believe - should be obnoxiously anal about accepting novel ideas, even good ideas from well-meaning people. While Omniglot is a nice site for quick info about languages and writing systems, i don't accept it as an authoritative proof of notability about conlangs, because it's operated by one man, who admittedly accepts for publishing everything that he personally likes.

 * I said it before and i'll say it again - LFN must be one of the nicest IAL's that i encountered. C. George Boeree made a good job recognizing the weaknesses of earlier IAL's and creating a new IAL that is easy to learn (especially for people who happen to know Italian :) And i strongly believe that C. George Boeree is very serious about getting the language properly recognized in a mainstream way. But here's one problem: Who described it except C. George Boeree? Nobody i know of. It is a problem, because this article uses the copula "to be" many times, "describing" features of LFN - it is phonetically spelled, the vowels i and u are used to represent the sounds of y and w, the general word order is subject verb object, etc. I put "describing" in quotes, because that's not really a descriptive grammar, but C. George Boeree decision. (One could say that a conlang cannot have a descriptive grammar by definition; i would argue that today's Esperanto and Quenya grammars can be called descriptive.)

 * Now, what happens if C. George Boeree suddenly decides that the word order should be SVO, or that he does want to use y and w? Will the LFN community's reaction be the same as the Esperanto community's negative reaction to Zamenhof's proposed reform? Or will the community quietly accept it? And if it will quietly accept it - will this Wikipedia article just be rewritten to reflect this change?

 * It's too hard to predict the future in this case, because it's hard to say what the community is in the first place. The number of edits on a wiki or a number of subscribers to a mailing list are by themselves very weak pieces of evidence that describe a community, but this article doesn't have anything better.

 * This is just one of the many problem with a weakly-referenced article about a conlang. I like conlangs, but i am on a crusade against problematic conlangs articles, because their encyclopedic value is highly dubious, and they have potential to hurt both the encyclopedia and the language.

 * Also, a quick note about ISO recognition: ISO recognized Europanto as a "language spoken in the European Union buildings ... for use among members of the European Union". I argue that an organization that makes such a blooper and grants a language code to an obvious joke, long ago neglected by its own author, should not be trusted blindly.

 * P.S. Can anyone fix the account opening screen at the LFN wiki? Thanks in advance. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 23:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Peace be upon her - I only meant that I wish her well. I found 37 references in google, which more than satisfies me as to her notability.  But you say it yourself:  I am welcome to "butcher" the article with templates?  I wouldn't think of doing so.

 * Authoritarian - Here's the rub: You can block me from doing things - I can't touch you.  Not all is equal in the happy land of wikipedia.

 * Footballers - But most of us don't care whether there are lots of articles on footballers or not. Let them have their articles - it makes wikipedia into something far more inclusive than the Britannica.  But let us conlangers have ours, too.

 * Omniglot's "inclusionism" - Isn't that the same criteria used by an author of a book - one, for example, about conlangs? He or she will include what he likes.

 * The problem with describing a grammar of one-man language - Thank you for your kind words about lfn. Many people have participated in describing it in our independent wiki, and decisions about changes to the language are made on the basis of consensus.  The language is quite stable, and changes at this point in time are simple matters of extending vocabulary to cover techical areas.

 * The possibility of reform - Yup. It happened only recently.  After years of using "un person..." we finally decided it was easier to use "on..."  Several of us were relieved, no one objected.

 * ISO recognition of Europanto and LFN - They were simply recognizing one of their own. Even linguists have a sense of humor.
 * Because of a crazy amount of spamming, we create accounts on request. No one has ever been denied. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgboeree (talk • contribs)

 * (As Sai says - interleaving comments is not so good. It's great for email, but not for wikipedia.)

 * Not all is equal - I can block you technically, but i need a good reason to do it. If i block you without justification, you can complain, and i'll be desysopped.
 * I didn't become and admin by inheritance or by having good connections. I worked for some time on improving the encyclopedia and when the time was right, i nominated myself and won. It's not too hard.
 * Being an admin is not a big deal.

 * Isn't that the same criteria used by an author of a book - Of course it is. The big book of Wikipedia is written by a community, and it usually doesn't like material which is based only on primary sources.
 * If anyone has the feeling that the community has become "deletionist" recently, then it is probably right, and it is certainly not just me. Compare this VfD from 2004 and this AfD from 2008.
 * I say that it's for the better - Wikipedia should be different from everything2. (That great site doesn't have an entry about LFN - how could that be?)

 * Many people have participated in describing it in our independent wiki - Well, that's the heart of the problem: a wiki. According to WP:SPS, open wikis are not acceptable as the only source. "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." This is a long-established policy.
 * Although, since you say that you only create accounts on request, it is not so open, which makes me think differently about it.
 * What do you know, i am starting to get convinced.

 * ISO recognition of LFN and Europanto - Hmm, but standards committees? :)
 * Yaroslav Zolotaryov should have tried harder at getting ru-sib recognized ... but considering his notoriously obnoxious attitude, maybe it's for the better that he didn't. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 06:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

First: I am removing the tags again. As I said in the edit comment, please do not re-add it unless something DEGRADES on those issues past the version as read by the AfD editors.

The AfD clearly showed consensus to keep. That it is listed otherwise is (AFAIK) because of Amir and/or Schaefer convincing a (fellow) admin to change the wording.

In any case, it was decided at that AfD. Unless something changes, or there was an issue with that AfD, that decision is final. If you don't like it, list it for DRV or re-AfD. But adding tags to an article claiming something that did NOT fly in the AfD is not acceptable, and I am willing to escalate this to Arbitration if necessary. If you revert this again, you will be breaking WP:3RR.

FWIW: I do not personally give a damn about Slovio or LFN. I don't personally like most auxlangs at all really. But I consider it notable and verifiable. I also consider notability as a requirement to be bullshit in full agreement with WP:NNOT, and I believe that primary sources are ABSOLUTELY acceptable for verification of simple FACTS about something (and not, perhaps, for things it would have reason to lie about).

As for what the language might be in the future, that is irrelevant. WP ain't a crystal ball, right? So when/if it happens, then we can add language to the article NPOV-describing the debate. (Just like, say, an article about French should discuss the efficacy of the attempts to regulate it, viz. 'balladeur' vs 'walkman'.)

This approach of deleting things instead of improving them, and otherwise tearing down the work of others, completely pisses me off.

Amir, you should not be deleting, nor otherwise acting as anything but just another editor, ANYTHING having to do with issues you have something to do with personally (like conlangs, about which you clearly have conflict of interest). If you do it again, I will file RfC for your admin powers to be removed. Please play nice. Sai Emrys  ¿?   ✍  02:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Sai, you are welcome to RfC me right now. But please, re-read WP:NPA first. If i shouldn't propose deletion of conlang articles because i have a "clear conflict of interest", then you shouldn't be editing conlang articles for the exact same reason. I'd say that it's a draw; if you still want arbitration or RfC, go for it.
 * You all seem to be taking AfD too seriously. AfD is not as final as you suggest. See Talk:Katamine for an extreme example (AfD it again if you want.) And see Articles for deletion/Penis game for the other extreme.
 * LFN's AfD was clearly "no consensus" and not "keep". I didn't have to work hard to convince the closing admin that it was no consensus, because he said it himself and i just asked him to write it at the AfD, too.
 * Now, about the main problem: the articleissues tags.
 * Self-published sources, Primary sources - esef.net and lingua-franca-nova.net are self-published. Or primary, if you want to insist that Stefan Fisahn is an external publisher. It's not a big difference, because in the world of vanity press someone has to operate the machines. I am NOT saying that Stefan Fisahn is a mindless operator of machines or that LFN is "vanity" in the bad sense of the word, but it is, for the most part, a creative work of one man, that wasn't reviewed by almost anyone (see above for my opinion of the ISO code process). So it's a problem either way.
 * You say: "I believe that primary sources are ABSOLUTELY acceptable for verification of simple FACTS" - the Wikipedia community believes otherwise. Read and re-read WP:PSTS, please. I suppose that Boeree's LFN grammar would qualify as an "original philosophical work" as far as the bureaucratic PSTS definitions go, but in any case this a blatant primary source. It cannot be used in a descriptive way, because it describes little except Bouree's state of mind. You cannot compare this to French grammar, because countless prescriptive and descriptive peer-reviewed grammars of French were written by "official" authorities and by independent researchers.
 * As for the notability tag, you say: "I also consider notability as a requirement to be bullshit" - again, the community thinks otherwise. Saying that the AfD is a proof of notability, and then saying that community's opinion about notability is bullshit is a bit of fallacy.
 * One last thing: "This approach of deleting things instead of improving them, and otherwise tearing down the work of others, completely pisses me off" - all work in Wikipedia must adhere to a consensus. Working for consensus is improving and not "tearing down". All reverted and deleted versions are preserved. You may take them and publish them on langmaker, esef.net, wikia, everything2 or any other website which is not as anal as Wikipedia about notability and sources. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no conflict of interest with anything I've edited except Language Creation Conference, which I founded. It survived AfD, and my contributions to it have been purely NPOV-factual, which is perfectly allowable under the CoI guidelines.
 * You however have interest in topics which where have also acted as an administrator. I can't do this, because I'm not an administrator. WP:NPA simply does not apply. You violated the rules - which in this case are supposed to be absolute, not merely guidelines - about the use of your administrative power. I called you on it. This has nothing to do with you as a person - it's not like I'm calling you fat or ugly or stupid or irrational the like. (If anything, I've defended your good faith elsewhere, despite my complete disagreement with your actions and philosophy.) Claiming that it is is a red herring fallacy, appeal to motive.
 * I am warning you about this issue, rather than listing you for RfC right now, because that is the appropriate and polite thing to do. It allows you the chance to knock it off.
 * Now, on to the article "issues"...
 * Who publishes something is completely irrelevant. The real underlying question is that the things in the article be verifiable or verified.
 * Primary - or as you would say self-published - sources are the only possible root source of certain information - e.g. in this case, any grammar of the language. Every other source possible would simply ask that primary source and regurgitate the information, possibly with errors in the process. If you disagree, please name a way that a non-primary source would have more accurate and complete versions of this for the thing in question.
 * Some other information, like birthdates, number of speakers, etc., is externally verifiable. Where that's possible, by all means it should be done and sourced.
 * Yet other information, like popularity or importance to some field, is something that should only be gotten from third party sources, because someone with direct conflict of interest would have motive to be biased, even if they are presumed to act in good faith.
 * I HAVE read WP:PSTS, and I believe that you completely ignore the underlying logic (which I explain above) and the relevant exceptions in favor of interpreting it as a rule for the sake of itself.
 * Essentially, you are claiming that something needs a secondary source even when a secondary source would NOT be more accurate than the primary, and when the issue at hand is not something about which they have a real CoI.
 * Please try to remember that verifiability, and reliable sources OF verifiability, are about *facts*. If you believe that specific facts in this article or any other are inaccurate, then please be SPECIFIC about which those are.
 * I did not say that the AfD is "proof" of notability. It's proof that a claim of WP:NOT was rejected as insufficiently substantiated. As such, it should not be de facto claimed on the article.
 * I can simultaneously say that I believe the whole concept of notability as a criterion is bullshit. Please feel free to refer to a specific fallacy if you believe I have committed one, but I doubt you'll be able to. You, however, have committed fallacy of argumentum ad populum (falsely!) in justifying your implicit claim that WP:NOT is reasonable. I don't believe that it is, and moreover I don't believe that there really is consensus in its favor. If there were, then we wouldn't keep having contested AfDs, DRVs, etc. As such, by definition this is not a consensual issue amongst the editors interested in these articles. But even so, I am perfectly capable of discussing whether or not something is notable.
 * Finally - I suggest you not toss around the word "fallacy" unless you can substantiate it as something more than "I disagree with you". Name the syllogistically accurate fallacy or don't engage me in that kind of debate.
 * P.S. Whoever interleaved comments in Amir's response above, please de-interleave, sign, and put it in sequential order. Interleaved comments are harder to read overall. Thanks. Sai Emrys   ¿?   ✍  00:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Finally - I suggest you not toss around the word "fallacy" unless you can substantiate it as something more than "I disagree with you". Name the syllogistically accurate fallacy or don't engage me in that kind of debate.
 * P.S. Whoever interleaved comments in Amir's response above, please de-interleave, sign, and put it in sequential order. Interleaved comments are harder to read overall. Thanks. Sai Emrys   ¿?   ✍  00:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. Whoever interleaved comments in Amir's response above, please de-interleave, sign, and put it in sequential order. Interleaved comments are harder to read overall. Thanks. Sai Emrys   ¿?   ✍  00:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Conflict of interest
I did indeed make many edits of the article. They have never been promotional. Rather, they have been small additions of npov information or attempts to make the page easier to read. If this is considered a breech of conflict-of-interest rules, I invite anyone to alter any edits they find offensive in that regard. Cgboeree (talk) 21:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

How do we address the tag issues
Sorry for the "interleaving." You guys have one hell of a lot of rules!

Here's what the tag now says:

This article or section has multiple issues:

 * It may contain original research or unverifiable claims. Tagged since February 2008.
 * It may have been edited by a person who has a conflict of interest.

My question: How do we address these issues?

I read more of your guidelines, and I can't see how the article contains original research. The article is an accurate report of something which exists; it contains no original research. Neither does it contain any unverifiable claims. Everything in the article is easily verified by looking at the sources. If someone could point to lines in the article that contain original research or unverifiable claims, we could certainly try to correct them. Please understand that I am not trying to be facetious! I genuinely want this to be a good article.

I assume that the person with the conflict of interest is me. I guess I would have been smart to let others work on the article. But I don't really understand how conflict of interest applies here. Conflict of interest only arises when the interest someone has in the topic of an article distorts the information. Again, if specific instances of conflict of interest could be pointed out, something could be done about them.

I am gratified that the issue of notability has been dropped for now, and I sure hope it doesn't come up again. I would point out to anyone involved in editing Wikipedia that we live in a very different world of information than we did in the days of (e.g.) the Encyclopedia Britannica. Less and less information is concrete and more and more is fluid. Wikipedia, in fact, is a part of this change. This is what makes the net so wonderfully revolutionary! The net is profoundly democratic (in the sense of "of the people"). So notability can indeed be judged by things like "lots of people are interested," rather than "some corporation published it."

If Wikipedia abandons its open, accepting nature, you might as well sell it to Microsoft.

Cgboeree (talk) 22:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC) (damn - I keep forgetting to log in first! old-timer's disease, I guess)

 * I don't see how issue notability has been dropped.
 * From Notability: "Substantive coverage in reliable sources suggests that the subject is notable. "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive." Explanation of "trivial": "The one sentence mention by Walker of the band Three Blind Mice in a biography of Bill Clinton is plainly trivial."
 * What reliable sources cover LFN non-trivially? Omniglot covers LFN non-trivially, but it is not reliable about conlangs in my opinion. A couple of books that were cited in the AfD discussion only mention LFN very briefly.
 * So, i don't see how the notability issue has been addressed. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I like what it says at the top of the notability page: "This page documents an English Wikipedia notability guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should follow, though it should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception." (Emphases added) Cgboeree (talk) 20:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Notability for constructed languages is a difficult philosophical issue. If mailing lists, google hits and wikis are sufficient to establish notability, then any determined, fanatical individual can make his conlang "notable" merely by devoting a few months to maniacal online activity. Even a conlang that nobody is using could be made to appear notable by populating a mailing list with sockpuppets and making it look like a thriving community. We need an objective, verifiable list of criteria for notability. Evidence that people are routinely having spoken (or sign-language) conversations in the language. The existence of regularly scheduled radio broadcasts or podcasts over a period of ten years or more. The existence of substantial books written in the language about various topics. That sort of thing. Until we have objective verifiable criteria, notability of conlangs will be an endless and annoying debate! (Unsigned for Good Reasons) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.30.241.48 (talk) 21:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * My point exactly.
 * There's Conlangs, where such criteria were supposed to be established.
 * I don't really think that it's a very good idea to have special "notability criteria" for every topic, because then people will do the bare minimum to pass them, and because quantifying everything with hard cold numbers is just not the right thing, intuitively. But apparently this topic of conlangs may be special. It's that gray area between art and science, and it's quite modern and thus web-centric, which indeed makes it hard to look at it according to the older style of verification etc.
 * In this case of Lingua Franca Nova i assume good faith - i believe that Cgboeree's intentions are good. But assuming good faith is not enough by itself.
 * P.S. Being anon on Wikipedia is not supposed to be a good thing ... but reality proves the opposite. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 22:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

 * There is absolutely no need for "endless and annoying debate." Leave the issue of conlang notability to those with interest and knowledge of the subject, as is done in pretty much every other interest area on wikipedia. The idea that one "fanatical individual" has attempted to make LFN notable by means of "maniacal online activity" and "sockpuppets" is downright paranoid. To end the debate, stop debating and start doing something useful.  Cgboeree (talk) 22:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

 * The anon user above didn't say that some tried to make LFN notable by maniacal online activity, but it may happen. That's why Verifiability invalidates personal websites and open wikis as sources, and all sources on this article are personal websites and open wikis. (The only exception would be SIL, which is not really a source for the information in the article, but just an external link, which tries to establish notability, and IMO doesn't succeed.) --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 22:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a discussion on the notability and verifiability of LFN. It is obvious that the conveniently anonymous comment is directed at LFN. Cgboeree (talk) 23:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

 * No, the comment was not directed at LFN. Many participants in the LFN mailing list (Steve Rice, Rex May, Jens Wilkinson and others) are obviously real people and not sockpuppets; they have been participating in a variety of auxlangs for many years. My comment was an attempt to convince you, George, that there need to be some objective tests for notability. Being known within the tiny world of auxlang enthusiasts is not the same as being notable for inclusion in a general interest encyclopedia. Would you expect Encyclopedia Britannica to contain an article on LFN and other proposed auxlangs that are at the same stage of development? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.30.241.48 (talk) 00:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Article status in Wikiproject Conlangs
Oh, one more thing: How does one up-grade the status from start-class? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgboeree (talk • contribs) 23:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * WikiProject Constructed languages/Assessment lists the classes. AFAIK, Sai Emrys and IJzeren Jan are the main maintainers of this Wikiproject, so i suppose they can decide something. Or anyone else can be bold.
 * In any case, i'd say that it can't be more than start, as it lacks a key element: reliable sources. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyone is welcome to join and tag 'em. My suggestion is that if you disagree with how an article is currently tagged, you a) be bold and just edit it (the tag is at the top of the talk page; see the template page for what variables it takes), and simultaneously b) be polite and announce that you've done so and your reasons for doing so on the Assessment page that Amir linked above. If anyone disagrees, then that would be the place to discuss it. The Assessment page also lists the standards for each categorization for both importance (to the project) and quality (to Wikipedia).
 * I marked this page as start-class, because of not a lack of reliable sources but a lack of better thoroughness / description / etc overall.
 * Take a look at the WP:CL page; it has a box with links to all WP:CL articles by quality & importance. You can compare against other articles that are B and A quality. Sai Emrys   ¿?   ✍  04:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

This is me being bold
I thought I would try "being bold" (something mentioned a few times in all those tag rules) and delete the tags on the lfn article, until such time as someone can provide specifics. Cgboeree (talk) 17:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Being bold is about improving the encyclopedia. It is about not offering to help improve an article, but just improving the article. It is about not asking how to improve the article, but trying to improve the article.
 * You cite "occasional exception" as an explanation why LFN adheres to the Notability criteria. Well, the "occasional exception" thing at the top of the notability policy is a link to the Ignore all rules policy. This policy is very short, but it has a separate page with a detailed explanation, which says: "A rule-ignorer must justify how their actions improve the encyclopedia if challenged."
 * I'm sorry, but i don't see how the LFN article doesn't improve this encyclopedia. The website about LFN improves the Internet; LFN may some day improve communication between people; but an article about LFN here doesn't improve the encyclopedia. To me it's not just a cold rule - it makes a lot of sense, and in my opinion only this way Wikipedia can stay reliable and useful. You may argue that Pokemon articles don't improve the encyclopedia much, and there indeed are many discussions about it. LFN and conlangs in general are interesting and intellectual topics, but their notability is problematic.
 * Please don't cite the AfD as a proof of notability - the AfD closer said it himself: "no consensus".
 * Now, there's also a technical part to it. An article with the notability tag is added to Category:Articles with topics of unclear notability. There are editors who go over that list and decide what to do with those articles. (I do it every now and then when i'm bored, and, believe it or not, i usually remove the tag instead proposing deletion.) It's a very slow process, as there are still thousands of articles listed there. Now, you may be negative and say that this way i am trying to bring more deletionists here, so that they will delete the article, but if you try to be positive, then this way i am trying to gather more opinions and consensus.
 * I am not going to AfD this article again, but any way you turn it, the notability issue has not been addressed in a way that is customary to Wikipedia, so the tag should remain.
 * In any case, I urge you again to consider writing an article about LFN on Everything2, where no-one will raise notability objections. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 21:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I feel like K in Kafka's The Castle. I give up. Cgboeree (talk) 23:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

And a bit like K in "The Trial" as well. Thanks anyway, Sai. Cgboeree (talk) 22:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I suppose that you refer to The Trial.
 * It's been a while since i last read it, but IIRC, the bad guys there didn't ever bother to explain him what's the problem. At least i am trying to explain... --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 22:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a point of curiosity: How does 9 "keeps" vs 2 "deletes" constitute no consensus? Especially when the "deletes" define themselves as deletionists? Cgboeree (talk) 23:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia deletion discussions are discussions, not votes. (Hence, comments in deletion discussion are often called "!votes", "!" being the "not" operator in some programming languages.) So vote count is mostly irrelevant, even when it shows very clear victory for one of the sides.
 * Arguments in deletion discussions are supposed to be related to established policies. None of the "keeps" cited established policies but expressed dissatisfaction with them. Both "deletes" tried to demonstrate how the article doesn't adhere to policies. So i suppose that the closing admin saw that there are a lot of "keep" !votes and the "delete" !votes sounded convincing, but were too few. So he did bring vote count into his consideration and closed it as "no consensus". It could be a case for Deletion review, but the discussion here on the talk page is rather interesting for me.
 * I don't define myself as a deletionist. I do, however, define myself as someone who thinks that the current established policies on Wikipedia make a lot of sense. You may call that "deletionism", and i won't be too offended, but do keep in mind, that there are deletionists who are much more extremist than i am and would support deletion of just about anything. I'd call that trolling, but some people seem to appreciate that for some reason. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 23:22, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Removal of tags
I have removed two of the three tags because they do not appear relevant to this article at this time. The information is accurate, and there is no evidence of bias. Inasmuch as notability appears to still be a concern of some, I have left that tag. Agricolaplenus (talk) 22:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Agricolaplenus, the references you have added are much appreciated. To my surprise, the notability criteria have been met and I now have no objection to removing the notability tag as well. I will remove it myself if nobody voices further concerns in the next few days. -- Schaefer (talk) 03:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Did i miss something - did you have an objection to remove the notability tag at some point? :)
 * Notability here is not completely absent, but it is still weak. Notability is defined as non-trivial coverage in secondary sources; Secondary sources are defined as "at least one step removed"; Hence, an article by Stefan Fisahn is hardly a secondary source, because he is very closely related to the ... core LFN developer (pardon my usage of words from the software engineering world.) I'll assume that an article in the Shippensburg University Magazine is a valid source, even though i haven't read it. (I'd gladly read it, not just to "establish notability", but because i'm genuinely curious, so if it's online, please post a link.) But then again - though it is valid, it is weak, because Shippensburg is the place where CGBoeree works. If an article like this one would be published by a magazine of another university, then it would be much better.
 * However, that would still leave the problem of primary sources. Most of the information in the article comes from sources written by a small group of people, and the same people edit it in Wikipedia, so there's no peer review. Reliable sources need to be peer-reviewed; to be more precise, first they need to be peer-reviewed, and then they may be used in Wikipedia. Publishing something in Wikipedia is not peer review.
 * So, i'd say that the existence of this article is problematic, because of its subject's very weak notability, and the content of the article is problematic because it's based on primary sources. I am not saying that the information is wrong or inaccurate, but that the sources are primary and essentially self-published.
 * After re-reading WP:COI, i did remove the COI tag, because this article doesn't blatantly violate it, even though it was extensively edited by the creator of the language. It's a matter of Assuming Good Faith and basic courtesy on my behalf. But i do insist of Notability and Primary Sources.
 * BTW, if anyone here thinks that i'm a brutal kafkaesque bureaucrat about sources and notability, take a look at Talk:Zomet Institute. Tags are not a "bypass" way to get an article deleted, but to get it improved, and in the case of that article it worked pretty well. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. Thanks, Amir, for cleaning up the references. I removed the article on myself (though desperate for third party references!) because it is embarrassing and only mentions lfn briefly. Cgboeree (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

With the addition of an article by Richard Harrison in the new journal Invented Languages, we can safely remove the remaining tags on Lingua Franca Nova. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.216.178 (talk) 14:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Greek Romanization
I have some minor problems with the romanization (or should I be saying the page's sounds matching to the Greek letters?). For instance "B/β" sounds more like a "v" than a "b". Another thing is "Χ/χ" is on the board twice. I fixed the miniscule Hi and was not challenged about it, now I was wondering if I could be given permission to fix the table. Kostantino888Z (talk) 23:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Why the rainbow?
Any universal or local meanings of the rainbow ? (I'm not from the States (where the language was invented, it seems) so I'm not sure if it's not some local cultural reference to it. 24.203.68.10 (talk) 06:24, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It's just a rainbow, or the morning sky. It symbolizes peace and tolerance. The arrangement is from the Seychelles flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.60.121.218 (talk) 21:42, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Far too long
I think this article is far too long. It almost contains the entire LFN reference grammar, and is currently about the longest entry on any language (let alone an auxlang - see e.g. the articles on Esperanto and Interlingua). If it were called "LFN grammar", ok, but this is supposed to be an article on the language, not a complete drill-down. I would therefore boldly suggest to do a major clean-up, and also add sections on comparing it to Esperanto and Interlingua (the most well-known and the most well-known Romance auxlang, respectively) and perhaps also to its major source languages, and have some "Reception" and/or "Critisism" section etc. Currently, the article is very unencyclopedic. Jalwikip (talk) 15:38, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It is shorter than the coverage of other languages if one includes the separate sections ("grammar", "phonetics", comparisons, etc.) The article has been trimmed a bit anyway. Separating it into parts risks even more "delete" attempts. A comparison article was actually online, but was deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.60.121.218 (talk) 21:27, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I have removed some of the examples and shortened some of the lists. I hope that this addresses your concerns! Cgboeree (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:28, 1 June 2011 (UTC).

POV concerns
I have noticed that this article has been flagged because of my involvement in the development of the article. Although I did not write the original article, I have indeed contributed extensively to its development (as have others), in an effort to make it as informative as possible. For obvious reasons, I am very fond of LFN. However, I have tried to be as neutral in POV as possible. If anyone has any specifics that I might address, I welcome your comments. Thank you! Cgboeree (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:09, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello, thanks Cgboeree. Every statement in a Wikipedia article ought to have references to reputable, reliable secondary sources--newspapers, magazines, scholarly journals, major news blogs, and sites like Ethnologue or Encyclopedia Britannica or references in published books... could you please add such references to the article? I apologize as it seems your constructed language has many more supporters than many of the others on here, but we're requesting this of all of them, not just yours. Kraŭs (talk) 21:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi. I have tried to add the detailed references you asked for. But regarding the idea that the article is somehow like a textbook, I have to insist that it is not. It is no different than articles in wikipedia on any other language. In fact, it was modelled on some of these! So, if you please, would you remove the tags? Thank you - I appreciate your efforts very much. - George  Cgboeree (talk) 12:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have removed some of the lists of examples and words, as well as the "travel guide" type of examples. I hope that helps as well. Perhaps you know a way to make the references less repetitive, though, for "esthetics" sake. Thank you. Cgboeree (talk) 20:07, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That's been taken care of. There is only one issue: you can't really use a wiki as a source. Anyone can edit a wiki, and as a result information that is correct today will suddenly be wrong tomorrow. I would strongly suggest to limit the entire grammar section basically to what is writtin in the "Overview" section with a few additions, and use one reference for the whole thing to a PDF version of the grammar. As I suggested, the long version of the grammar could find a better home at Wikibooks. Regards, —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu?  13:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The grammar and dictionary for LFN are not open to changes by anyone other than the sysops/bureaucrats of the wiki, which are the four members of our "commitee": "simon" (england), "sunido" (france), "guido" (england), and "jorj" (myself). But I went ahead and used the pdf version as the reference, as that is totally controlled by simon. I would like to "fight" to keep the full grammar, as it is no more detailed than other languages, including esperanto, ido, interlingua, etc. Since LFN is recognized as a real language by SIL, it seems persecutorial to deny it full coverage. Wish me luck!
 * PS Although I don't believe that area languages will prove useful for the "real world", I admire your efforts enormously! Slovianski is a work of art, something we aspire to with LFN as well. Many of the constructed languages, including IALs, seem like they were just thrown together without much thought. I believe ours (yours and mine) are better than that! Cgboeree (talk) 15:48, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the complement! Although in all honesty I should note that Slovianski is not mine - it is the work of an entire group of people. All I did was making the first draft of the natural version of Slovianski, which later became "Slovianski". But as it turned out, all of it had already been done long before. As for the use of area languages, I would say that our ambitions are relatively modest. It is not about building a user community or gaining recognition, but (in the case of Interslavic) simply about being equally understandable to Poles, Russians, Serbs and Bulgarians. As long as it fulfills its task, I am more than happy! By the way, I am willing to make a version of the LFN introduction and LFN for travellers, if you like.
 * As for the LFN Wiki: I have to say that it is a really admirable achievement! I honestly regret that LFN didn't get its own Wikipedia edition, because I'm sure it would have become a success (compare that to the Novial edition, where most pages have little or no content at all!). It's just that policy says wikis are never accepted as sources, not even as primary sources, because anybody can start a wiki under any name, write whatever he likes under whatever title he likes. So from that point of view, a PDF on the official website is always more reliable as a source. Mind, what the Wiki DOES prove is its very existence as well as the number of articles it contains, and for those facts using it as a reference is perfectly okay.
 * Regarding the grammar section: sure, I do wish you luck! But for the sake of balance, I'd still recommend you do to something similar to f.ex. Interlingua, namely: a brief overview in Interlingua and a detailed description in Interlingua grammar. This is certainly not a matter of denying it full coverage (which is about the last thing I'd ever do), rather a means to ensure that the main article is about the language and not a reference guide for using it. In my opinion, that would be justified for two reasons. First of all, because the grammar section is very detailed (especially in comparison to other sections) and covers much more than half of the entire article, which in itself is quite long already. And secondly, because the "brief overview" section merely duplicates information that is given below. In the constellation I am suggesting (merely suggesting, mind!) the grammar section would be upgraded to a separate article, while a slightly expanded version of brief overview itself would cover the very basics and contain a link to the grammar page. Best, —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu?  01:37, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I took your advice and separated the main article from the grammar, and used the Interlingua pages as guidance. Wish me luck! Now, how do I get rid of all the warnings? Cgboeree (talk) 13:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Yes, I think this is a great improvement. I have taken the liberty to remove two tags. The one about encyclopedic style had been addressed already. As for the "Conflict of interest tags": there is already such a tag on the talk page as well, and I can't see the need of having it twice. Since IMO the article does not in any way reflect this conflict (whether there is one or not), there's no need for warning the readers either. I have left the remaining ones intact for now: although I personally think notability is not a problem at all here, others might believe differently. It would be good to add a few newspaper articles or book references to take care of this for good. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu?  16:23, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Tags
In response to the remaining issues tags:
 * 1. The notability question has been answered repeatedly in the past. LFN is arguably the best known IAL since Interlingua. It has been featured at the Constructed Languages Portal three times, has had an article devoted to it in "Invented Languages", has a published book written entirely in LFN, and has been recognized by SIL with its own code. There are articles on LFN in 48 other wikipedias, none of which were created by the original author.
 * 2. There is no original research in the article. All information is taken from external resources, as indicated by copious inline references.
 * 3. As a modern phenomenon of the internet, it does rely on internet sources, especially the LFN wiki. However, it is also discussed in "Invented Languages" and in independent newsletters. Cgboeree (talk) 13:45, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * LFN is arguably the best known IAL since Interlingua. Perhaps, but the problem is: who says that? This is precisely the sort of assertments that require independent sources. Of the things you sum up, there are only two that matter: Alice and the SIL code. The article in "Invented Languages" is certainly a source, but the title itself makes it abundantly clear that LFN has not been the only language discussed there.
 * The Portal has a "language of the month" each month indeed, but please do note that many languages have been featured three times the same way. The main criterion is that the article in question is substantial enough. People can always suggest new LOTMs, but since nobody has done that for years, I just follow the principle that when we've had all suitable languages in a row, we start over again from the beginning. Besides, I should add that referring to the portal is a typical case of self-referencing, which is against policies. The same goes for 48 interwiki links as well. In practice, this has never been accepted as a criterion for notability here - unlike f.ex. on the Russian edition, where an argument heard frequently in deletion discussions is this: since there are so many other editions that consider the subject notable, who are we to say it isn't? However, neither can it be denied that Wikipedia articles tend to multiply themselves, because people blindly translate versions from other languages instead of doing some research themselves.
 * In the case of constructed languages, it cannot be required that every grammatical detail is taken from secondary sources. Let's face it: any Esperanto or Interlingua grammars or dictionaries are primary sources as well. Here I would rather rely on verifiability: a statement confirmed by a primary source can be considered verified if this source is named as such by reliable secondary sources. For constructed languages, especially the modern ones, goes that this primary source is almost always a website.
 * Most important, however, is that at least a significant part of the article relies on independent, reliable secondary sources, like for example this one - but I'm sure there are more of those. Cheeṙs, —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu?  15:32, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Phonology
Would not only it be extremely hard for speakers of Portuguese and Catalan to never do vowel reduction (e.g. even though unstressed and not strongly nasalized isn't really hard, I can't naturally make my  not become about as raised as, be it English, Spanish, French or Japanese, especially in the case of the central or open vowel and if it is stressed)? IMO even Spanish speakers would think it to be extremely boring to use instead of  in the case of the word e ("and") thoroughly.

Something you can't also expect from native speakers of said languages is to people not lenite voiced bilabial, dental and velar stops to fricatives or approximants in their respective positions (it is so natural, intuitive and imperceptible that Brazilians don't know they have it, even though I can easily hear that they do the bilabial and dental cases in unstressed position). Also you can't expect complete lack of palatalization of coda sibilants in Portugal, of dental stops in Brazil, and of both in Rio de Janeiro in a language they would admit as auxiliary and naturalistic rather than foreign (especially the last two ones, that palatalize English, Spanish...). I think it should be made clear if the phonology is tolerant to individual speech characteristics that come out of the speakers' native languages, or is it more dictative on the issue like Esperanto, especially if LFN's creator spoke about it. Lguipontes (talk) 23:55, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

 * I believe you do an injustice to speakers of Portuguese. I am certain that they can learn non-native speech patterns as well as anyone. If you pity them, think of the poor speaker of English, in which practically every vowel has a glide of some sort. But understand that LFN permits a great latitude of pronunciation, and that is included in the "official" grammars, as well as in other articles on the language. I will add that fact to this article, although I have become wary of doing so, since every time we add a detail, someone comes out and tells us that we have too much detail! Thank you for your comment! Cgboeree (talk) 21:20, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

 * There is one comment on vowel phonology in the article that can be misguiding. It is said that vowels are pronounced as in Spanish or Italian, but there vowel repertoire of those two languages is different - Italian has 7 vowel phonemes while Spanish has 5, and, further, Spanish /e, o/ are articulated in a different position from Italian /e, o/, in an intermediate position between Italian /e, o/ and Italian /ɛ, ɔ/. Anyone reading that phrase is bound to wonder where are these vowels actually articulated - purely mid as in Spanish /e, o/, close-mid as in Italian /e, o/, or open-mid as in Italian /ɛ, ɔ/? That ambiguity should be corrected.62.117.243.70 (talk) 10:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Why another language
Why is this language better than existing languages like, say, interlingua?

How is it different to Interlingua?
Can anyone add a paragraph or even a sentence to say why this was invented when Interlingua already existed? Or why someone would choose to learn LFN over Interlingua? Thanks. Great floors (talk) 19:41, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Facebook users?
Seems like a bad source for total speakers... DemonDays64 (talk) 19:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

 * Truth is, numbers of speakers of constructed languages are always a tricky subject. For natural languages, the numbers given usually refer to native speakers only, as in most cases it is pretty much impossible to say how many L2, L3 etc. speakers there are. Constructed languages don't have L1 speakers (the only exception is Esperanto, but even Esperanto has no monolingual speakers), which is quite natural, since it's the kind of language that people learn by choice. Of course, members of a Facebook group are not necessarily speakers, but at least they belong to a community of active and passive users, and that's basically the only hard data we have. As long as it is explicitly mentioned what the number actually refers to, I can see no harm in mentioning it. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu?  21:54, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

How did this get its own Wikipedia??
There has been great reluctance to set up Wikipedias for artificial languages other than Esperanto (a Toki Pona Wikipedia slipped through in the early days, but was then removed), so I'm curious how this particular language got its own Wikipedia... AnonMoos (talk) 18:42, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

 * It got its article because someone went to the trouble of creating it. I suppose it was kept because it was sufficiently well done and no one saw an adequate reason to remove it. I would suppose that the Toki Pona article, for example, wasn't equally well sourced. -Roy McCoy (talk) 20:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

 * No, no, I'm not talking about this article, I'm talking about the Lingua Franca Nova Wikipedia https://lfn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paje_xef ... The standards for having a Wikipedia set up are much more stringent than having an article on English Wikipedia... AnonMoos (talk) 21:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

 * It's reasonably simple: if the language has a valid ISO 639-3 code and there is sufficient activity on the Incubator, that's proof enough that a Wikipedia edition in it is viable. Whether the language is artificial or not is of little consequence here. Besides, it is not true that Esperanto is the only constructed language with a Wikipedia. There's Wikipedias in Interlingua, Ido, Volapük, Interlingue, Novial, Lojban and Kotava as well. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiel/tu?  22:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

 * Lingua Franca Nova seems to be the most recently created and least "established" of any of those. There must have been a fairly drastic change of policy since the last time I was monitoring new Wikipedia creation (which was admittedly close to ten years ago) to allow the LFN Wikipedia to be created... AnonMoos (talk) 11:33, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lingua Franca Nova


text:
Talk:San Gabriel Mountains

Untitled
Willmcw - Care to source your last edit? It's described as "The observatory has never ceased being used. Individual telescopes are another matter" but I sure don't see anything sourcing this. Both of the links are dead and neither is about any observatory. You'll also need to identify the statement that it never ceased being used by citing an astronomer or other qualified expert there who holds that position, seeing as the information needs to be reliable and verifiable. Otherwise I suppose, as an editor once said, it should be removed. Patiently awaiting your compliance... Rangerdude 04:00, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * No I don't have a source. It's common knowledge. You could spend time googling, and maybe find the information or not. Or you might consult obscure out-of-print journals. But no, the burden of proof is on me. I suppose the right and just thing for you to do is remove my unsourced information. Thank you for making Wikipedia a better, more reliable reference. -Willmcw 05:29, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Unlike you, I am not in the business of deconstructing articles. I do not mind applying your own selective standards and arguments to your edits that fail to meet the very same demands, many of them absurd ones, that you persistently make of other editors. Therefore I will reiterate once again that you have failed to source your edit to this article and ask you to bring it into compliance with your own standards. Have a nice day! Rangerdude 05:40, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Nope. I don't have a source. Or rather, I won't get it for you. So go ahead. Do the right thing. Take out the unsourced, unverified, possibly POV material. Be my guest. You are doing Wikipedia a service. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:18, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * As I said previously, I'm not in the business of deconstructing other articles and you are not in the business of abiding by the very same standards you demand of everyone else. If you don't want to source this then don't expect others to respond to your similar requests. Rangerdude 17:28, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Just as with any unsourced edit, it is liable to be removed by other editors who believe it is inaccurate. If I wanted it to stay, then I'd provide a verifiable source. My lack of a source is an indication of my minimal interest. If this was a subject that I cared more about, if this was a fact that I thought was important to the article, then I would certainly provide one or more sources. -Willmcw 20:44, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

San Gabriel Mountains vs. Angeles National Forest
Both articles indicate that one is inside the other, but which way is it? Maps show the San Gabriel Mountains inside of Angeles National Forest. Travisk 20:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The vast bulk of the SG Mtns lies within the ANF (the far eastern end is inside the San Bernardino National Forest). The ANF also covers at least one small mountain range, the Sierra Pelona. I'm not sure what could be meant by "This Transverse Range lies in and is surrounded by the Angeles National Forest". It isn't surrounded by the ANF, it is part of the ANF. This should be rewritten for clarity. -Will Beback 23:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

National Monument Status!?
Word on the street is that it has been declared a "National Monument", but it is all happening too fast and it looks like this particular Wiki page is not caught up on that fact, yet. Here is one blog with some info: http://geotripper.blogspot.com/2014/10/san-gabriel-mountains-national-monument.html

AND i notice it's mentioned on this brand new Wiki page, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Gabriel_Mountains_National_Monument

Seems like it should probably be mentioned on the front page of this article, but I normally do not edit front pages, Thank-You!!! Lesbrown99 (talk) 00:58, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The National Monument did not "happen too fast," this was a process that began a long time ago, I was at the National Parks Service meeting where this was discussed back on 14/Sep/2009, and documents about the proposal were filed and available on the Internet at least a year prior to that.
 * Some people were caught unaware because they were not paying attention -- because most of us are not constantly plugged in to what takes place in and around our public lands. But those of us who work, volunteer, or spend a great deal of exercise time in public spaces and are plugged in to Facebook and such were aware of the proposal to attempt to establish a National Recreation Area, expand the Sheep Mountain Wilderness, or classify the area as a National Monument were talking about this openly and in public meetings since before 2009.
 * There is a write-up on one of the meetings, this is one of which I attended At the Crystal Lake page Damotclese (talk) 16:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Missing citation
I have a copy of the Environmental Impact Report for the Caltrans evaluation for reconnecting Highway 39 to Angeles Crest which the extant article notes "citation needed." Question: If such a lengthy PDF file which discusses the proposed roadwork and its impact on the flora, fauna, and habitat considered to be a suitable citation, do you think? If so, I can add the citation. Thanks! Damotclese (talk) 16:34, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:San Gabriel Mountains


text:
Detasseling

Detasseling corn is removing the pollen-producing flowers, the tassel, from the tops of corn (maize) plants and placing them on the ground. It is a form of pollination control, employed to cross-breed, or hybridize, two varieties of corn.

Fields of corn that will be detasseled are planted with two varieties of corn. Removing the tassels from all the plants of one variety leaves the grain that is growing on those plants to be fertilized by the tassels of the other, resulting in a hybrid. In addition to being more physically uniform, hybrid corn produces dramatically higher yields than corn produced by open pollination. With modern seed corn, the varieties to hybridize are carefully selected so that the new variety will exhibit specific traits found in the parent plants. The detasseling process usually involves the use of both specialized machines and human labor.

Machine detasseling
Nearly all detasseling is done in two steps; the field is first detasseled by machine and then detasseled manually. Machine detasseling itself is typically a two step process. Initially a detasseling machine called a "cutter" goes through the rows of corn to be detasseled and cuts off the top portion of the plant. This is done to make the field more uniform so that a "puller" machine can come through the corn field a few days later and pull the tassel out of the plant by catching it between two rollers moving at a high speed. This removes the majority of the tassels.

Detasseling machines typically remove 60 to 90 percent of the tassels in a seed corn field. This is far less than the 99.5 percent that need to be removed to produce the uniformity of seed desired by farmers. The main problems for the machines are that they are unable to adapt quickly to height differences in plants and they throw tassels into the air where they can become lodged in other corn plants and inadvertently allow pollination. It is desirable that the pulled tassel ends up on the ground to prevent this problem.

Manual detasseling
Whether or not a field of seed corn is initially detasseled by machines, eventually people are employed to detassel the plants that the machines missed and to remove any tassels that the machines left in the leaves of other corn plants. This is done either by having "detasselers" walk through the corn field removing the tassels or by having detasselers ride through the corn field on a detasseler carrier. Detasseler carriers are typically employed when the corn is too tall to be detasseled from ground level. Each carrier can hold from eight to twelve detasselers.

Detasseling work is usually performed by teens; as such, it serves as a typical rite of passage in rural areas of the Corn Belt of the Midwestern United States. For many teens in these areas, it is their first job. Exact starting dates depend on the specific area of the country and the growing conditions of any given year. The detasseling "season" typically lasts from two to four weeks, with work days varying from just a few hours to over 10 hours, depending on the growing season. Wages for detasselers vary greatly; some detasselers earn minimum wage, while others earn over $12.00 per hour. Individual wages depend on the seed corn company, the detasseling contractor, the experience of the detasseler and even the individual field conditions, such as the number of plants per acre, percentage of the tassels pulled by a detasseling machine or the height of the corn.

The manner by which wages are determined can also vary greatly between detasseling contractors. Some pay a straight hourly wage; others pay on a piece rates basis, where detasselers are paid an amount for every row, panel or acre detasseled. Other contractors use a rating system to determine detasseler wages for a given day.

In addition to employing a large teenage workforce, some areas of the country employ migrant workers as detasselers. Migrant workers wages are usually paid on a piece rates basis.

Early 20th century
Detasseling was used in the late 19th and early 20th centuries in the "ear-row" method of corn breeding. In this method, alternating rows of corn are detasseled and the seed from the detasseled rows is saved for planting the following season. However, ear-row breeding did not result in large yield increases and was largely abandoned after a few years.

Around 1910, experimental corn breeders became excited by the possibility of improving corn yields by crossing two high yielding varieties. Again, this was accomplished by planting the varieties in alternating rows and detasseling one of the varieties. This method of seed production also proved disappointing and was also abandoned.

However, the modern hybridization process, where one inbred line of corn is crossed with another, developed from this early work in cross breeding. In 1908, George Harrison Shull described heterosis, also known as hybrid vigor. Heterosis describes the tendency of the progeny of a specific cross to outperform both parents. In 1917, a process was developed that would make this hybridization commercially viable. In 1933, less than 1% of the corn produced in the United States was produced from hybrid seed; by 1944, over 83% was. This hybrid seed is produced by crossing two inbred lines by planting a row of one inbred variety followed by several rows of a second variety. The tassels of the second variety were removed by hand so that the second variety could be pollinated by the first.

Late 20th century
Hybrid corn was detasseled manually until the mid-1950s, when a cytoplasm was discovered that would cause one of the inbred lines to be male sterile while the hybridized seed corn it produced would regain male fertility. This gene allowed seed corn companies to greatly reduce their labor costs by producing seed corn without the need for manual detasseling. By the mid-1960s, nearly all seed corn was produced with this gene.

This situation changed in 1971 with an outbreak of the fungus southern corn leaf blight. The cytoplasm used to produce male sterility was highly susceptible to this fungus. At the time, approximately 90% of hybrid corn used in the United States contained this gene. About 15% of the corn crop was lost to infection, and for the next few years, male sterility was abandoned and nearly all seed corn was again detasseled manually.

In the mid-1970s, machines were developed to help reduce the large labor costs associated with manual detasseling and as a response to a shrinking rural teen labor force. In the 1980s, male sterile varieties that were not susceptible to southern corn leaf blight were reintroduced; however, the reliance on a single sterile variety seen in the 1960s has not been repeated.

Today, corn hybridization is accomplished by a combination of machine and manual detasseling as well as male-sterile genes.

Seed corn fields
Seed corn fields are planted in a repetitive pattern known as a "panel", "block" or "set", depending on the area of the country. There are two main planting patterns for these panels. A panel may be planted in a 6:2 pattern, where six "female" rows, the rows to be detasseled, are followed by two "male" or "bull" rows, the rows that will be used to pollinate the detasseled rows. Panels are also commonly planted in a 4:1 ratio, with four female rows followed by a single male row. Other, less common, patterns are also used, including 4:2 and 4:1:6:1. In all cases, the pattern is continued throughout the corn field.

All or portions of seed corn fields may be surrounded by extra rows of male plants if it is likely that wind may carry foreign pollen into the seed corn field. These extra rows are called "buffer" or "isolation" rows, depending on the area of the country. Another important aspect to keeping undesirable pollen out of seed corn fields is a process known as roguing, a process that removes plants that differ from the variety intentionally planted.

title: Detasseling


text:
Wald's equation

In probability theory, Wald's equation, Wald's identity or Wald's lemma is an important identity that simplifies the calculation of the expected value of the sum of a random number of random quantities. In its simplest form, it relates the expectation of a sum of randomly many finite-mean, independent and identically distributed random variables to the expected number of terms in the sum and the random variables' common expectation under the condition that the number of terms in the sum is independent of the summands.

The equation is named after the mathematician Abraham Wald. An identity for the second moment is given by the Blackwell–Girshick equation.

Basic version
Let $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ be a sequence of real-valued, independent and identically distributed random variables and let $N ≥ 0$ be an integer-valued random variable that is independent of the sequence $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$. Suppose that $N$ and the $X_{n}$ have finite expectations. Then

 * $$\operatorname{E}[X_1+\dots+X_N]=\operatorname{E}[N] \operatorname{E}[X_1]\,.$$

Example
Roll a six-sided dice. Take the number on the die (call it $N$) and roll that number of six-sided dice to get the numbers $X_{1},. . ., X_{N}$, and add up their values. By Wald's equation, the resulting value on average is

 * $$\operatorname{E}[N] \operatorname{E}[X] = \frac{1+2+3+4+5+6}6\cdot\frac{1+2+3+4+5+6}6 = \frac{441}{36} = \frac{49}{4} = 12.25\,.$$

General version
Let $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ be an infinite sequence of real-valued random variables and let $N$ be a nonnegative integer-valued random variable.

Assume that:

 * $$. $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ are all integrable (finite-mean) random variables,
 * $$. $E [ X_{n}1_ ] = E [ X_{n} ] P(N ≥ n)$ for every natural number $n$, and
 * $$. the infinite series satisfies

 * $$\sum_{n=1}^\infty\operatorname{E}\!\bigl[|X_n| 1_{\{N\ge n\}}\bigr]<\infty.$$

Then the random sums
 * $$S_N:=\sum_{n=1}^NX_n,\qquad T_N:=\sum_{n=1}^N\operatorname{E}[X_n]$$

are integrable and
 * $$\operatorname{E}[S_N]=\operatorname{E}[T_N].$$

If, in addition,
 * $$. $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ all have the same expectation, and
 * $$. $N$ has finite expectation,

then

 * $$\operatorname{E}[S_N]=\operatorname{E}[N]\, \operatorname{E}[X_1].$$

Remark: Usually, the name Wald's equation refers to this last equality.

Discussion of assumptions
Clearly, assumption ($$) is needed to formulate assumption ($$) and Wald's equation. Assumption ($$) controls the amount of dependence allowed between the sequence $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ and the number $N$ of terms; see the counterexample below for the necessity. Note that assumption ($$)  is satisfied when  $N$  is a stopping time for a sequence of independent random variables $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$. Assumption ($$) is of more technical nature, implying absolute convergence and therefore allowing arbitrary rearrangement of an infinite series in the proof.

If assumption ($$) is satisfied, then assumption ($$) can be strengthened to the simpler condition

 * $$. there exists a real constant $C$ such that $E [$ for all natural numbers $n$.

Indeed, using assumption ($$),

 * $$\sum_{n=1}^\infty\operatorname{E}\!\bigl[|X_n|1_{\{N\ge n\}}\bigr]\le

C\sum_{n=1}^\infty\operatorname{P}(N\ge n),$$

and the last series equals the expectation of $N$ [ Proof ], which is finite by assumption ($$). Therefore, ($$) and ($$) imply assumption ($$).

Assume in addition to ($$) and ($$) that
 * $$. $N$ is independent of the sequence $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ and
 * $$. there exists a constant $C$ such that $E [$ for all natural numbers $n$.

Then all the assumptions ($$), ($$), ($$) and ($$), hence also ($$) are satisfied. In particular, the conditions ($$) and ($$) are satisfied if
 * $$. the random variables $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ all have the same distribution.

Note that the random variables of the sequence $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ don't need to be independent.

The interesting point is to admit some dependence between the random number $N$ of terms and the sequence $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$. A standard version is to assume ($$), ($$), ($$) and the existence of a filtration $(\mathcal{F}_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$_{0}}|undefined$ such that
 * $$. $N$ is a stopping time with respect to the filtration, and
 * $$. $X_{n}$ and $\mathcal{F}_{n–1}$ are independent for every $n ∈ $\mathbb{N}$$.

Then ($$) implies that the event ${N ≥ n} = {N ≤ n – 1}^{c}$ is in $\mathcal{F}_{n–1}$, hence by ($$) independent of $X_{n}$. This implies ($$), and together with ($$) it implies ($$).

For convenience (see the proof below using the optional stopping theorem) and to specify the relation of the sequence $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ and the filtration $(\mathcal{F}_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$_{0}}|undefined$, the following additional assumption is often imposed:
 * $$. the sequence $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ is adapted to the filtration $(\mathcal{F}_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$, meaning the $X_{n}$ is $\mathcal{F}_{n}$-measurable for every $n ∈ $\mathbb{N}$$.

Note that ($$) and ($$) together imply that the random variables $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ are independent.

Application
An application is in actuarial science when considering the total claim amount follows a compound Poisson process

 * $$S_N=\sum_{n=1}^NX_n$$

within a certain time period, say one year, arising from a random number $N$ of individual insurance claims, whose sizes are described by the random variables $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$. Under the above assumptions, Wald's equation can be used to calculate the expected total claim amount when information about the average claim number per year and the average claim size is available. Under stronger assumptions and with more information about the underlying distributions, Panjer's recursion can be used to calculate the distribution of $S_{N}$.

Example with dependent terms
Let $N$ be an integrable, $$\mathbb{N}$_{0}$-valued random variable, which is independent of the integrable, real-valued random variable $Z$ with $E [ Z ] = 0$. Define $X_{n} = (–1)^{n} Z$ for all $n ∈ $\mathbb{N}$$. Then assumptions ($$), ($$), ($$), and ($$) with $Z$ are satisfied, hence also ($$) and ($$), and Wald's equation applies. If the distribution of $Z$ is not symmetric, then ($$) does not hold. Note that, when $Z$ is not almost surely equal to the zero random variable, then ($$) and ($$) cannot hold simultaneously for any filtration $(\mathcal{F}_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$, because $Z$ cannot be independent of itself as $E [ Z^{2} ] = (E [ Z ] )^{2} = 0$ is impossible.

Example where the number of terms depends on the sequence
Let $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ be a sequence of independent, symmetric, and ${–1, +1}$-valued random variables. For every $n ∈ $\mathbb{N}$$ let $\mathcal{F}_{n}$ be the σ-algebra generated by $X_{1},. . ., X_{n}$ and define $N = n$ when $X_{n}$ is the first random variable taking the value $+1$. Note that $P(N = n) = 1/2^{n}$, hence $E [ N ] < ∞$ by the ratio test. The assumptions ($$), ($$) and ($$), hence ($$) and ($$) with $C = 1$, ($$), ($$), and ($$) hold, hence also ($$), and ($$) and Wald's equation applies. However, ($$) does not hold, because $N$ is defined in terms of the sequence $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$. Intuitively, one might expect to have $E [ S_{N} ] > 0$ in this example, because the summation stops right after a one, thereby apparently creating a positive bias. However, Wald's equation shows that this intuition is misleading.

A counterexample illustrating the necessity of assumption ($$)
Consider a sequence $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ of i.i.d. (Independent and identically distributed random variables) random variables, taking each of the two values 0 and 1 with probability $1⁄2$ (actually, only $X_{1}$ is needed in the following). Define $N = 1 – X_{1}$. Then $S_{N}$ is identically equal to zero, hence $E [ S_{N} ] = 0$, but $E [ X_{1} ] = 1⁄2$ and $E [ N ] = 1⁄2$ and therefore Wald's equation does not hold. Indeed, the assumptions ($$), ($$), ($$) and ($$) are satisfied, however, the equation in assumption ($$) holds for all $n ∈ $\mathbb{N}$$ except for $n = 1$.

A counterexample illustrating the necessity of assumption ($$)
Very similar to the second example above, let $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ be a sequence of independent, symmetric random variables, where $X_{n}$ takes each of the values $2^{n}$ and $–2^{n}$ with probability $$. Let $N$ be the first $n ∈ $\mathbb{N}$$ such that $X_{n} = 2^{n}$. Then, as above, $N$ has finite expectation, hence assumption ($1⁄2$) holds. Since $E [ X_{n} ] = 0$ for all $n ∈ $\mathbb{N}$$, assumptions ($$) and ($$) hold. However, since $S_{N} = 1$ almost surely, Wald's equation cannot hold.

Since $N$ is a stopping time with respect to the filtration generated by $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$, assumption ($$) holds, see above. Therefore, only assumption ($$) can fail, and indeed, since

 * $$\{N\ge n\}=\{X_i=-2^{i} \text{ for } i=1,\ldots,n-1\}$$

and therefore $P(N ≥ n) = 1/2^{n–1}$ for every $n ∈ $\mathbb{N}$$, it follows that

 * $$\sum_{n=1}^\infty\operatorname{E}\!\bigl[|X_n|1_{\{N\ge n\}}\bigr]

=\sum_{n=1}^\infty 2^n\,\operatorname{P}(N\ge n) =\sum_{n=1}^\infty 2=\infty.$$

A proof using the optional stopping theorem
Assume ($$), ($$), ($$), ($$), ($$) and ($$). Using assumption ($$), define the sequence of random variables

 * $$M_n = \sum_{i=1}^n (X_i - \operatorname{E}[X_i]),\quad n\in{\mathbb N}_0.$$

Assumption ($$) implies that the conditional expectation of $X_{n}$ given $\mathcal{F}_{n–1}$ equals $E [ X_{n} ]$ almost surely for every $n ∈ $\mathbb{N}$$, hence $(M_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$_{0}}|undefined$ is a martingale with respect to the filtration $(\mathcal{F}_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$_{0}}|undefined$ by assumption ($$). Assumptions ($$), ($$) and ($$) make sure that we can apply the optional stopping theorem, hence $M_{N} = S_{N} – T_{N}$ is integrable and

Due to assumption ($$),

 * $$|T_N|=\biggl|\sum_{i=1}^N\operatorname{E}[X_i]\biggr| \le \sum_{i=1}^N\operatorname{E}[|X_i|]\le CN,$$

and due to assumption ($$) this upper bound is integrable. Hence we can add the expectation of $T_{N}$ to both sides of Equation ($$) and obtain by linearity

 * $$\operatorname{E}[S_N]

=\operatorname{E}[T_N].$$

Remark: Note that this proof does not cover the above example with dependent terms.

General proof
This proof uses only Lebesgue's monotone and dominated convergence theorems. We prove the statement as given above in three steps.

Step 1: Integrability of the random sum $S_{N}$
We first show that the random sum $S_{N}$ is integrable. Define the partial sums

Since $N$ takes its values in $$\mathbb{N}$_{0}$ and since $S_{0} = 0$, it follows that

 * $$|S_N|=\sum_{i=1}^\infty|S_i|\,1_{\{N=i\}}.$$

The Lebesgue monotone convergence theorem implies that

 * $$\operatorname{E}[|S_N|]=\sum_{i=1}^\infty\operatorname{E}[|S_i|\,1_{\{N=i\}}].$$

By the triangle inequality,

 * $$|S_i|\le\sum_{n=1}^i|X_n|,\quad i\in{\mathbb N}.$$

Using this upper estimate and changing the order of summation (which is permitted because all terms are non-negative), we obtain

where the second inequality follows using the monotone convergence theorem. By assumption ($$), the infinite sequence on the right-hand side of ($$) converges, hence $S_{N}$ is integrable.

Step 2: Integrability of the random sum $T_{N}$
We now show that the random sum $T_{N}$ is integrable. Define the partial sums

of real numbers. Since $N$ takes its values in $$\mathbb{N}$_{0}$ and since $T_{0} = 0$, it follows that

 * $$|T_N|=\sum_{i=1}^\infty|T_i|\,1_{\{N=i\}}.$$

As in step 1, the Lebesgue monotone convergence theorem implies that

 * $$\operatorname{E}[|T_N|]=\sum_{i=1}^\infty |T_i|\operatorname{P}(N=i).$$

By the triangle inequality,

 * $$|T_i|\le\sum_{n=1}^i\bigl|\!\operatorname{E}[X_n]\bigr|,\quad i\in{\mathbb N}.$$

Using this upper estimate and changing the order of summation (which is permitted because all terms are non-negative), we obtain

By assumption ($$),

 * $$\bigl|\!\operatorname{E}[X_n]\bigr|\operatorname{P}(N\ge n)

=\bigl|\!\operatorname{E}[X_n1_{\{N\ge n\}}]\bigr| \le\operatorname{E}[|X_n|1_{\{N\ge n\}}],\quad n\in{\mathbb N}.$$

Substituting this into ($$) yields

 * $$\operatorname{E}[|T_N|]\le\sum_{n=1}^\infty\operatorname{E}[|X_n|1_{\{N\ge n\}}],$$

which is finite by assumption ($$), hence $T_{N}$ is integrable.

Step 3: Proof of the identity
To prove Wald's equation, we essentially go through the same steps again without the absolute value, making use of the integrability of the random sums $S_{N}$ and $T_{N}$ in order to show that they have the same expectation.

Using the dominated convergence theorem with dominating random variable $|S_{N}|$ and the definition of the partial sum $S_{i}$ given in ($$), it follows that

 * $$\operatorname{E}[S_N]=\sum_{i=1}^\infty\operatorname{E}[S_i1_{\{N=i\}}]

=\sum_{i=1}^\infty\sum_{n=1}^i\operatorname{E}[X_n1_{\{N=i\}}].$$

Due to the absolute convergence proved in ($$) above using assumption ($$), we may rearrange the summation and obtain that

 * $$\operatorname{E}[S_N]=\sum_{n=1}^\infty\sum_{i=n}^\infty\operatorname{E}[X_n1_{\{N=i\}}]=\sum_{n=1}^\infty\operatorname{E}[X_n1_{\{N\ge n\}}],$$

where we used assumption ($$) and the dominated convergence theorem with dominating random variable $|X_{n}|$ for the second equality. Due to assumption ($$) and the σ-additivity of the probability measure,

 * $$\begin{align}\operatorname{E}[X_n1_{\{N\ge n\}}] &=\operatorname{E}[X_n]\operatorname{P}(N\ge n)\\

&=\operatorname{E}[X_n]\sum_{i=n}^\infty\operatorname{P}(N=i) =\sum_{i=n}^\infty\operatorname{E}\!\bigl[\operatorname{E}[X_n]1_{\{N=i\}}\bigr].\end{align}$$

Substituting this result into the previous equation, rearranging the summation (which is permitted due to absolute convergence, see ($$) above), using linearity of expectation and the definition of the partial sum $T_{i}$ of expectations given in ($$),

 * $$\operatorname{E}[S_N]=\sum_{i=1}^\infty\sum_{n=1}^i\operatorname{E}\!\bigl[\operatorname{E}[X_n]1_{\{N=i\}}\bigr]=\sum_{i=1}^\infty\operatorname{E}[\underbrace{T_i1_{\{N=i\}}}_{=\,T_N1_{\{N=i\}}}].$$

By using dominated convergence again with dominating random variable $|T_{N}|$,

 * $$\operatorname{E}[S_N]=\operatorname{E}\!\biggl[T_N\underbrace{\sum_{i=1}^\infty1_{\{N=i\}}}_{=\,1_{\{N\ge1\}}}\biggr]=\operatorname{E}[T_N].$$

If assumptions ($$) and ($$) are satisfied, then by linearity of expectation,

 * $$\operatorname{E}[T_N]=\operatorname{E}\!\biggl[\sum_{n=1}^N \operatorname{E}[X_n]\biggr]=\operatorname{E}[X_1]\operatorname{E}\!\biggl[\underbrace{\sum_{n=1}^N 1}_{=\,N}\biggr]=\operatorname{E}[N]\operatorname{E}[X_1].$$

This completes the proof.

Further generalizations

 * Wald's equation can be transferred to $R^{d}$-valued random variables $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ by applying the one-dimensional version to every component.
 * If $(X_{n})_{n∈$\mathbb{N}$}$ are Bochner-integrable random variables taking values in a Banach space, then the general proof above can be adjusted accordingly.

title: Wald's equation


text:
Talk:Rita Barksdale

Couldn't this be covered on a page called Minor characters from Daria? See Minor Jedi characters in Star Wars for an example --nixie 04:00, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Probably. When that's started this can be a redirect page, but we might as well leave it for now. james_anatidae 10:26, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Rita Barksdale


text:
Great Highway

The Great Highway is a road in San Francisco that forms the city's western edge along the Pacific coast. Built in 1929, it runs for approximately 3.5 mi next to Ocean Beach. Its southern end is at Skyline Boulevard (State Route 35) near Lake Merced; it extends to Point Lobos Avenue and the Cliff House at its northern end. In 2020 a portion of the road was closed to vehicular traffic, opening back to traffic in 2021 during weekdays.

Description

The Great Highway is a four-lane divided road built in 1929 that is approximately 3.5 mi long and runs next to the Pacific Ocean along to Ocean Beach on the west side of San Francisco. The Great Highway starts at Skyline Boulevard and runs north to Point Lobos Avenue and the Cliff House in the Outer Richmond neighborhood of San Francisco. It forms the western border of Golden Gate Park with two windmills, the Dutch Windmill and the Murphy Windmill at the northwestern and southwestern corners of the park along the highway. Both windmills were built to pump water into Golden Gate Park.

As a north–south throughway, this section of the highway does not provide access to destinations in the nearby Sunset neighborhood, other than Lincoln Way and Sloat Boulevard. It is a recreational street with no car-usable turn-offs in the two miles between Lincoln and Sloat. This provides limited use for local traffic, so a parallel street named Lower Great Highway is immediately adjacent to the east of the recreational street. This street has residential dwellings on one side and a mixed use trail running parallel between the two streets. It is adorned with stop signs and speed bumps on nearly every block.

The N Judah, a San Francisco Municipal Railway streetcar line, ends at Great Highway and Judah, while the L Taraval, another streetcar line, ends two blocks from Great Highway at Wawona and 46th Avenue.

History
The Great Highway was laid out in the Humphreys-Potter map of 1868 which laid out the streets of San Francisco's newly acquired Outside Lands, including the Richmond and Sunset districts.

In the 1890s, a railway line was run along the route of the Great Highway from its Southern terminus to Golden Gate Park in order to build the California Midwinter International Exposition of 1894. Although these tracks were removed in February 1895, the berm that supported them is still visible on the East side of the Great Highway today, supporting a multi-use pathway.

In the early 1900s, as the automobile gained popularity, efforts were made to improve and widen the Great Highway as well as protect it from erosion. City engineer Michael O'Shaughnessy’s Ocean Beach Esplanade was completed in 1928, along with a newly paved Great Highway in 1929. The concrete seawall survives to this day.

During the Hot Rod era of the 1950s-60s, the Great Highway was a popular destination for owners of modified cars and others who wished to engage in rolling drag races. In the 1980s, San Francisco converted the highway from eight lanes to four lanes with an underwater stormwater transport box to adhere to the California Coastal Act and Clean Water Act.

Pedestrianization of middle section
The two-mile-long middle section of the Great Highway, between Lincoln Boulevard and Sloat Boulevard, is currently closed to motor vehicles on holidays, weekends, and Friday afternoons and evenings to provide recreational access, but remains open to traffic the rest of the week. This hybrid setup has been in effect since August 2021, is slated to continue until 2025, and is a compromise between residents who want a full reopening to cars and other residents who prefer the section of highway to become a permanent, 24/7, 17-acre park.

The segment was fully pedestrianized on a temporary basis in April 2020 during a COVID-19 stay at home order, a move that led to some people referring to the segment as the "Great Walkway". City officials claimed the closure attracted an average of 26,400 weekly pedestrian and bike visitors, versus 140,000 vehicles per week passing through when it had been open to motorized traffic.

By 2021, the closure, along with the pedestrianization of JFK Drive in Golden Gate Park, had become hotly debated. One city survey of 4,000 San Francisco residents found 53% of respondents supported making the closure to motor vehicles permanent. A community created petition got over 11,000 signatures to reopen the highway to cars as of August 2021. That month, three westside San Francisco supervisors and Mayor London Breed announced the new plan to reopen the Great Highway to motor vehicle traffic on weekdays (except Friday afternoons). This announcement short-circuited a separate and ongoing planning process by the San Francisco County Transportation Authority to plan for the long-term future of the space, causing some protests.

Prior to the motor vehicle closure, the roadway was closed an average of 27 times a year for sand removal and flooding. In April 2022, due to sand, the Great Highway was partially or completely closed to motor vehicles for the entire month.

In December 2022, after city voters rejected a ballot initiative that would have forced the Great Highway back open to motor vehicle traffic, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted 9–2 to renew the hybrid compromise until 2025. A group of neighbors called Friends of Great Highway Park praised the vote and continues to advocate for a fully car-free space.

Planned closure of southern extension
Due to rising sea levels the southernmost portion of the highway, Great Highway Extension from Sloat Boulevard to California State Route 35, is slated to close to vehicle traffic permanently starting early 2026 as part of the Ocean Beach Climate Change Adaptation Project, to be replaced with a multi-use pathway, plaza, and seawall protections for city wastewater infrastructure. The new plaza, to be located at the intersection of Great Highway and Sloat, will feature a new restroom building, while the southern end of the closed section will feature a parking lot accessible from Skyline and a new staircase down to the beach.

title: Great Highway


text: User talk:66.156.60.70

title: User talk:66.156.60.70