text:
User talk:Tomlillis

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Meelar (talk) 23:45, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Tacky clothes
You asked ''"The Tacky Clothes Incident?" How long has that been sitting there unnoticed?''. Per the history page, five minutes. Thanks for fixing it. -- John Fader (talk | contribs) 23:22, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Christian X of Denmark
Hi. I see that you're updating the article on King Christian X. If you understand Danish, I can recommend Tage Kaarsted (1968): "Påskekrisen 1920", Århus: Universitetsforlaget. It has a good coverage of the dismissal of the Zahle cabinet. --Valentinian 16:55, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

 * My pleasure. It should always be encouraged when a foreigner wishes to learn more about one's own country. Påskekrisen 1920 is the most comprehensive work on the "Easter Crisis of 1920" (in any language) and Danish historians consider it to be the "definitive work". You might find it interesting that we also had a smaller "Easter Crisis of 1948". Following the Soviet coup-d'état in Czechoslovakia in February 1948, the Danish government was extremely anxious and convinced that Denmark was next on the Soviet menu. You can imagine what happened when the government suddenly received rumours that a Soviet invasion of Denmark was imminent. According to one of my old professors, the government got as far as giving a cabinet minister full powers to set up a government in exile, soldiers' leave was cancelled and trenches were dug near the garrisons on Zealand (or was it Lolland?, probably Zealand). A small story to illustrate; Prime Minister Hans Hedtoft spent the Easter on Gjorslev Manor in the country. One morning, he woke up Colonel Lunding, a Danish intelligence officer, also residing at the manor. The PM had seen lights and heard noices and was convinced that Soviet paratroopers had landed to capture him. In fact, neighbouring farmers had just started work pretty early.

 * Well, this second "Easter Crisis" is almost known exclusively by Danish historians. The event played a key role in making Danish politicians abandon Denmark's traditional policy of neutrality and Denmark became one of the founding members of NATO in 1949.

 * Påskekrisen 1920 is the doctoral dissertation of Professor Kaarsted, a very well-respected historian, who unfortunately died in 1994. If you get stuck, feel free to send me a message, I own a copy, and might be able to help. Btw, since you're writing about King Christian X, you might want to include a reference to Kongemærket (literally, the King's Mark). This was an small silver ornament showing the Danish flag and the insignia of the King. It was introduced in 1940 when the King celebrated his 70th birthday and was worn by a great number of patriotic Danes throughout the German occupation. You can see a (probably copyrighted) image on [], right coloumn, first image. This picture shows the "proper" Kongemærke from the silversmiths of Georg Jensen. Georg Jensen also made it in gold but that version is pretty rare. Another company also made a cheaper version in brass, just an oval with the CX insignia. Since the German authorities accepted the King remaining on the throne, they could hardly deny his subjects the right to wear the royal insignia. Regards. --Valentinian 22:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Page moves
Hey, not coming to your talk page to tweak you, I promise, but I just wanted to make sure you knew about the "move" button on the top. In a new article like OSM, the page history isn't THAT important, but when you use the move button to put articles in their right name, it preserves the prior history of that article. Just tohught I'd fill you in if you weren't aware, hopefully we'll be able to keep the PM article looking sharp --badlydrawnjeff 18:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Re:My user page was vandalized
Hey Tom! I can't believe you noticed it! I appreciate your notice. Cheers -- Svest 20:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™

Interesting bio
Interesting bio. FearÉIREANN \(caint) 21:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Tomillis changed the NPR logo to PBS
It was him who did this to the article.

Becoming bilingual
I agree, all of the stuff that author is posting does appear to be original research. Perhaps it should all be nominated for deletion? Some guy 05:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Overland nonsense.
Good Sir:

As a High School history teacher I am greatly offended by your dismissal of Dr. Overland as a mere "hoax". It seems as if people like yourself have been leading a coordinated attack against the good doctor. Please cite your reasons to disbelieve this fact so as I may counter them.

 * Communication goes on the talk page, thank you.

re: Uniformity of your edit summaries
Administrators have a "rollback" button that appears when viewing page differences. Using this rollback feature automatically leaves the edit summary you see. Users without administrator privileges can add rollback functionality by modifying their monobook.js pages. Please see this link for the script. Your monobook.js is located at User:Tomlillis/monobook.js. —Wayward Talk 09:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Attack page you labelled with a CSD
I deleted Wc3forum.tk. User:Iopq recreated it. You tagged it. I deleted it. It has been recreated again. I would appreciate it if you might drop by that user's talk page to explain why such an article is unacceptable. Thanks. Jkelly 02:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I notice that you had your page vandalized in return. Sorry about that.  Thanks again.  Jkelly 02:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

re: American terrorism, thanks
Thanks for your generous comment on my talk page. I look forward to working with you on the article. It's always easier to edit with someone who reads between the lines, understanding what I was unable to articulate myself. Tom Harrison (talk) 14:48, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Musicology
Hey, thanks! I appreciate it! Wikipedia is simply the most fun I've had yet on the internet ... I find it dangerously addictive. Happy editing, and hello from a fellow (mostly) Irishman. Enjoyed your userpage by the way. :-) Antandrus (talk) 23:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Your assistance needed
I am afraid I need to ask you for another favour. Judging from User talk:Iopq seems to think that ysterday's events were funny. I am therefore considering opening a user conduct WP:RFC. I cannot, however, do it without the certification of someone else who tried to "resolve the dispute". Since everyone else involved simply blocked the IP sockpuppets on sight, you are the only other user who tried to "resolve" the issue through talk. I'm sorry to have to ask you to go out of your way again, but, if I were to go through the process of gathering the evidence and writing the RfC, would you be willing to certify your attempt to resolve the problem? Thanks for considering it. Jkelly 01:30, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

 * At Requests_for_comment/Iopq, you need to certify the dispute. At Requests_for_comment/User_conduct you need to move it to "Approved pages - have met the two person threshold".  Please feel free to edit the description summary, and add evidence or other applicable policies.  Also, thank you.  Jkelly 03:06, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks. I assumed from your rollback-like edit summaries (and your cool-headed protectiveness of Wikipedia) that you were an administrator.  Perhaps I should have consulted WP:LA.  Jkelly 03:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Have you considered eventually becoming an admin? Jkelly 03:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Fair enough, but I hope that you do not, in fact, wait for another whole year. Jkelly 21:33, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

RE: Creation of Aragon High School, Lists
I intended the page to give information to perspective students and their parents, as well as for the current students within the school who seek the relative success of each teacher / class. As such, I believe that the recent history, as measured by the list of scores, may be helpful for such parties. Just as a list of ACE of tropical cyclones would be appropriate for pages on Hurricane season, scores (the easiest measures, like catagories or ACE of hurricanes) would be for schools. To distant 3rd observer, any lists of numbers would not be inherently "informative," but to parties seeking for such information, such lists are valueable. The list also needs to be recent, as students and staff of most institutions are relevant to such institutions for limited period, and because Wikipedia, unlike other encyclopedias, has the benefit of constant updates to keep any information, including lists, relevant to the time of access, the nature of the list are suited to Wikipedia, in which subsequent concerned student may update from time to time and maintain the page's informative nature. In addition, I had various commentaries that perhaps you had missed with your reverse edit. Would you comment on the notes that I had written? My hope was that they complement and expand upon the information the list may imply.SiriusAlphaCMa 08:56, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

rv vandalism on CP
Thanks for reverting the vandalism on CP (the blanking). I noticed that a number of people have appeared from out of nowhere with no other edit history and started editing that page, so I presume that they are users of the talker, and hence would make good contributors to the article. I would therefore like to see it given a week to see how it goes with its editing, to see if they can sort things out. One user added a lot of useful information, and I think that if they work legitimately towards the project then they should be able to use their combined knowledge to get somewhere. However, I disagree that ignoring individual incidents that were referenced explicitly as cause for people abandoning talkers is a good way to go. These things are historically significant. If they are ignored, then the page may as well not be there. It's not like its a popular talker or anything. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 03:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I know that a lot of people commented that it should all be merged, and I can see the merit to that. On creating the CP article by itself, I questioned to myself whether it was individually sufficiently notable. Its not the first of anything or the most popular of anything. Indeed, its only claim to fame is the controversy part. I could have written that whole thing in the PoE part, and not written CP at all. And indeed, I could have merged sleepy's, fantasia and lintilla all in to lintilla. If someone wants to suggest a merge in that manner, I won't object. Fantasia and CP are not notable in their own right, and, if it weren't for alexa telling me that sleepy's was the 3rd most popular talker in the world right now, sleepy's isn't notable in its own right either. lintilla is though.

They are good candidates for merge, and if you want to suggest that, then we can do that. And since the bits are duplicated anyway, its really already merged. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 08:00, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I should point out that had my PoE article not had an AFD notice slapped on it 30 seconds after creation, I probably wouldn't have created the CP article separately, and it was created in a large way to verify notability for the PoE article. Similarly with sleepy's and fantasia's used to verify notability for lintilla. Sleepy's and fantasia's are direct spin offs from lintilla, so a merge is sensible. Whilst esoterically CP has nothing to do with PoE, since the controversy links directly, then it is.

I could very easily combine the 5 articles there in to 2. That might make things easier. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 08:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

By the way, is it bad form for me to nominate for deletion articles that I was the primary contributor to? I don't see a point in having CP as an article now. All of the relevant notable parts are included elsewhere. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 08:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I am tempted to laugh at the latest development. Apparently one of the anon IP addresses that was vandalising the page has now filed a Requests_for_page_protection asking that I not be permitted from editing the page! I found this to be most amusing, since my editing was related to removing vandalism and trying to reach a diplomatic compromise. They have launched several personal attacks on me not only in the article's talk page, but also in the request for page protection itself! Oh, I also tried what you suggested, with merging the pages. The redirect was reverted, and they are now trying to claim that it is sufficiently notable in its own right, and have made a lot of incorrect assertions about its notoriety (such as it being "unique" in combining MUDs and talkers - sorry, then what's a MUSH?) I would just put an AFD flag on it straight away, but I thought I'd let them fight it out first. I would be interested to see if they can provide a single piece of evidence to support their point of view. To date, they have not included a single one, and have admitted that it is all just their personal opinion and belief as to what happened. Their evidence, it seems, is that the person who runs the place told them so (yet didn't even write it on a web page anywhere). I wonder if that really counts as evidence. I would be very surprised if it did. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 23:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought that I would let you know that these people, as part of their protest, put in an AFD on PoE, and have made sure to have a number of new people create new accounts so as to make sure that it gets voted delete. They actually did this before you put the Crystal Palace page up for deletion, and I had thought to wait until that one was over first. From what I can gather, since it was nominated for deletion just 2 weeks ago, and was voted 7/3 to keep, and since they put it up for nomination so as to prove a point, I imagine that it fulfils the criteria for a speedy keep.

It seems that these editors are not interested in editing anything else besides things related to CP, and have gone to lengths to change articles so as to "clear their name". I have tried to be diplomatic with things, but they are basically changing history. This has included the Talker article and I imagine will later include Nuts (Talker) as well as zoophilia, all of which reference it (I didn't put it in to the zoophilia page, FH2 did, because he thought that it was relevant to zoophiles as it destroyed their community, something which was well documented within the zoophile community - and caused all of the zoo talkers to shut down because of it). I imagine that they might also attack the lintilla (talker) page which also indirectly references it.

It reminds me a bit of that guy who was going around trying to change history to make it look like Adolf Hitler was a good guy, by wiping out huge chunks from lots of articles that talked about him being a bad guy. I am happy to reword it so that it looks very neutral, but I don't think that it should be allowed to be removed. That's my opinion at least. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 06:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Merge
I am happy to merge all of the talkers. In a lot of ways its already been done. What I am not happy to do is to delete history. We can present 2 sides to the story if they like, but we can't just delete history. How to merge them all? All in to talker? Or perhaps have them split by code base, half in ew-too and half in nuts? Or maybe just split them by relevance. I can put in all of the ew-too talkers under Foothills (talker) since historically that is the main one (even though its not the most popular one, it is the most influential one), and wipe 4 of the NUTS ones - CP, Crossroads, Ncohafmuta and Lighthouse, and then merge PoE in to lintilla, since it was based on that. Then we'd be left with 2 talkers. As a comparison, so you know, there are 46 articles about individual MUDs on wikipedia, 2 articles on individual MUSHes (which are virtually the same as talkers), 1 article on an individual MOO and 2 articles on individual MUCKs (although MUCK doesn't have its own article for some bizarre reason - its a redirect to MUD). Now, from my understanding, talkers were much more popular than MOOs or MUCKs, and were a little bit more popular than MUSHes, but nowhere near as popular as MUDs. However, the top 2 talkers (resort and surfers) would have both been listed in the top 5 MUDs of all time, if they were MUDs. Number 3, foothills, would struggle to make the top 20 MUDs, and none of the others beyond that would have been as popular as any of the 46 MUD articles. So perhaps 2 articles is fair. Or do you think that it should all be merged in to the code bases?

Also, as to the controversies. There's 5 major ones. Other than the first, which is the university one (that the university where foothills and resort were hosted banned them, and then universities all over the world followed suit), none of the others have any kind of independent source. But yet those 5 major controversies (only 2 of which involve CP, and only 1 directly) were unbelievably important to the history of talkers, and indeed you could describe the entire history of talkers purely by talking about those 5 controversies, and not even mention anything else. So do I list them? Or just the university one and then just make general statements about the rest? I thought that NPOV said it was okay to mention them so long as we put forward both sides of the argument. I thought that I'd done that. Yet their version of NPOV seemed to be to wipe out the whole lot of them and then make something up. So what is the answer? Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 12:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Response to CP nomination
I'm not going to delete this, but I suggest you take the writer's comments with a grain or two of salt. Tom Lillis 10:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

My word, you are exceptionally familiar with WP policy for someone who joined yesterday. Good research. Unfortunately, I think you may misunderstand certain policies.

 * Probably because I didn't join yesterday as even a cursory look at my contributions would have shown.  I've been an active contributor for well over a year.   However, I've only been registered under this name for about 6 months and often don't bother to log in for simple edits.   Pardon me for being bold here, but you've shown a lot of distain toward everyone involved in this process, especially everyone you consider to be a newcomer (even if they aren't).   You've even copped a superior attitude with me with your very message, which I strongly object to.   I, on the other hand, have been doing my best to keep everyone in their respective corners and give everyone, including newcomers, an equal voice.

 * As for misunderstanding policies, I disagree. We might have different interpretations, but that's what the AFD discussion is all about.  The AFD procedure specifically says that we should use the policy in our arguments and I've done precisely that.  You are free to come up with an opposing opinion and post it in your own argument.  In fact, I encourage you to do so.

Perhaps I should have been clearer: I find the reams of material on talkers to be overkill, and this is where I'm choosing to start. Here's why:

1.) The size of each individual community suggests to me that, while talkers as a phenomenon are certainly worthy of documentation, different articles detailing these communities is probably not valuable.

 * I am not necessarily in disagreement with this. However, you picked out only one of over a dozen articles of that type for your AFD.  Unless you are willing to open up AFDs on every single one of them, I have to vote to keep ALL of them in the spirit of fairness.   Otherwise, it appears you are making a focused attack on a single article simply because people are interested in that particular one.   So, the question is this:  Is the real reason because of the article itself, or because of the actions of some of the newcomers?   Your conversation with Zordrac make it appear to be more the latter than the former.   However, if suddenly an AFD is opened on every single one of them, you might find that I'll change my vote.

2.) The discussion of the internal politics of the talker doesn't meet the standards for notability in my opinion. If we aren't accepting biographies of local political candidates in jurisdictions many times larger than the entirety of the talker universe, then I can't justify the inclusion of details of the talkers' politics.

 * I agree. However, all references to internal politics have been removed from the Crystal Palace entry, even before you opened the AFD on it.  Therefore, this argument is completely moot and bogus.

3.) The discussion of the internal politics and many of the nitty-gritty details of a given talker's history relies on inherently unverifiable facts. There are no real records of substance; I suspect that has a great deal to do with the fact that it is not a topic of substance.

4.) You cited a number of items listed under problems that may not require deletion. However, demonstrating multiple problems from that category are legitimate matters to consider when debating deletion.

 * Then I would propose this would make a good candidate for stubbing or request for cleanup.  If we killed every article that needed cleanup only days after its inception, Wikipedia would be very very small.

5.) The list of problems that are potential causes for deletion is not definitive or complete.

 * Until an alternative comes along, I'll stick with the current policy. Otherwise, the process becomes completely ad hoc.

6.) The policies are wonderful, but the golden rule for inclusion is this: "Would this same type of material normally be found in a print encyclopedia?" The answer is no, not unless we were discussing the most esoteric single-subject encyclopedia in existence--"The Encyclopedia of Internet Chat Mechanisms," or something.

 * Then Wikipedia is chock-full of stuff that needs to be deleted, including detailed descriptions of every Star Trek episode to the meaning of Midi-Chorlorians from Star Wars. Wikipedia has always served niche markets.  You know as well as I do that Wikipedia is big enough for everyone, including us.

I hope this clears up what I meant. An addendum to this effect will be made to the AfD discussion relatively soon.

 * Until that addendum is put in, I'm sticking with the current policy. I have no desire to discuss this with you further.  I've made my vote and I'm sticking to it for now.   I have no wish for you to continue to berate me on my talk page because you disagree with my vote or my reasons for it.  Please do not contact me regrading this again, Tom.  -- Shinmawa

Shinmawa
I too found this to be odd. I woke up the other day to see all of these masses of vandalism on CP page and these were reverted by yourself and Shinmawa. You have a huge userpage, while his was totally empty. I checked your respective edit histories, and yours was extensive while his had like 4 entries. It just seemed to be very odd.

It just seemed to me as if he was someone with a vested interest either with me or else with the article in question. Whilst they did revert edits, I had more than a few questions about whether they were personally biased about it. They basically took a rather irrational view supporting the anon IP edits as well, and seemed to have a knowledge of my conversations on other talk pages around here, as if they knew me.

I wrote them a message, and not only didn't they respond, but they also wiped it off their talk page. I guess that you are allowed to do that, but it just seemed a bit odd to do that. I noticed that they did the same thing with yours as well.

My first thought had been that it was an admin who I'd had a disagreement with who was trying to use a new account to avoid detection, but I am not so sure. I thought perhaps that it was a friend of the folks who were using CP, but just that this person already had a Wikipedia account. After all, they didn't write a lot of messages to each other, yet seemed to have a lot of coordination.

I don't want to be seen to be falsely accusing people, because I am really guessing as to what is going on. It could be any one of a number of things. But it seems that Shinmawa is trying very hard to protect their identity, so that we don't know who they are, or who they were, or why they have suddenly taken a huge interest in the topic. Nor why they have a very odd view of what NPOV means.

At this stage I am feeling pretty disillusioned about the whole thing, because of the weight of time I spent on those articles all being removed in just a few minutes basically, and especially because of the factual inaccuracies. Whilst I would have thought that judgements by admins in the matter would be pretty obvious, I guess that its not necessarily so. So I guess that I will go back to the whole merge idea.

As for the disputes about the reliability of sources etc, I thought that perhaps one way of doing it is to not mention specifics. They all agree that these things happened, and that they had a major impact, the dispute is as to the specifics of what happened. So I thought perhaps I would generalise them a bit. I had a go at that on talker and I hope that that is a good compromise. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 02:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Merge them all
I saw your note to merge lintilla (talker) in to talker. As I said before, I think that this would be difficult in still maintaining continuity (you should check out what happened to MOO if you want to see why), but I could try. I have also put up Crossroads (chat site), Ncohafmuta and Lighthouse (chat site) for deletion, all articles that I created as part of compiling the history. I am just not convinced that either of those 3 is suitably notable. I plan to merge the rest all together, in to 2 articles, or possibly 1. I think that it has to be done in stages though. I guess it is a matter of perspective too, as there is no question that all of the articles I created are notable, but they might not be sufficiently notable for an article in their own right. Except for the 4 that I think I always knew weren't really notable. So I am asking for them to be deleted. Its damn hard to figure out how to do the deletions though. I stuffed it up again. LOL. The rest other than those 4 can be happily merged. I am not convinced that CP should be merged though, IMO it should be outright deleted. I can still refer to it with a link to their web site though, which is what I planned to do in the brief mentions it warrants. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 11:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Response
Going to attempt to be polite about this:

 * Thank you. I appreciate this.   I'm rather tired of being attacked, insinuated that I'm pretending to be an admin (I've never even implied it), that I'm orchestrating things, etc.

1.) I'm curious as to what IP address you made your unattributed edits with.

 * Well, no one particular one. Depends on where in the world I am at the time.  I travel a lot.   However, some of the artciles I've taken an interest in are Sadako Sasaki (I'm very proud of this one), hedcut, Virgin Mary in Islam, and the Hiroshima Peace Park.   There are others of course, but these are some of my personal favorites.

2.) Making sweeping statements about what is and is not policy tends to draw my ire, especially when those statements are misleading or inaccurate. Your initial contribution to the AfD discussion was, while very dramatic, not entirely accurate. That deserved addressing and I addressed it.

 * My intention was not to draw your ire. I apologize if I have.   However, you made just as many sweeping statements as I did.  For example, you brought up WP:POINT.  However, my 'dramatic' vote on AfD pretty much did all the applicable 'dos' in that article.   Bottom line, I think we have a different philosophy is all.   There's nothing wrong with that.   I'll respect your philosophy if you respect mine.

 * I'm glad you did respond to my point of view with your own. I encouraged you to do so.  Open debate is a positive thing, as long as it is kept where it belongs.  I liked that you responded to my point of view on the AfD page, but disliked that you challenged me on my talk page with the implication that I was a know-nothing newbie.  That draws MY ire.

3.) I deny being condescending to newcomers. I also missed your handful of earlier edits. I think you misunderstood the intent of the apparently very offensive statement: the "newcomers" seem remarkably adept at citing (or mis-citing) Wikipedia guidelines and policy. Either this article attracted a lot of very quick learners, or someone is feeding them material.

 * Well, no one is doing any "feeding" as far as I know. I've certainly not seen anything of the sort.  There's been only a single announcement made to the community about the article followed by a plea from me to NOT vandalize the pages (which was eventually heeded).   I don't think these people have a higher-than-usual learning ability either.   I think that these people are familiar with the system.   Since I don't know who they are, I can't say for sure.

4.) If you know who is sending people to the AfD debate from Crystal Palace in order to vote no, I would like to speak with that person. I have no connection with the community and I assume, by the way you've referred to CP as "us," that you do. If I am to believe that all of these relatively wellspoken new folks arrived at the debate on their own... well, I don't. (You may want to inform whoever is arranging the campaign that votes from brand new users are frequently discounted.)

 * If you want to find out if there is a campaign, you might want to start with asking if there is one rather than just making an accusation. Such things lead to people to believe that you are assuming bad faith, which I'm sure you are trying to avoid.

 * However, there is no campaign that I'm aware of. There's been no announcements to the community about the AfD at all.  In fact, the community has been silent about the whole matter for days.   If there WAS a campaign, it would have been formed by Virus himself who would have encouraged people to vote to DELETE it, not the other way around.  Virus has made his opinion quite clear on that in his original announcement and I think that was what spawned the initial rash of "blanking" vandalism (which you and I both reverted).   I'm afraid those are legitimate votes, Tom.   Again, I don't know who any one involved in this is, other than myself, so I can't say for sure.   If there is orchestration of any kind, it hasn't appeared on any message boards or any other community-wide communication channels that I've seen.

 * Last time I checked (last night), the votes were pretty much tied between delete, keep, and merge. I would hardly call that much of a campaign at any rate.

5.) "Until that addendum is put in, I'm sticking with the current policy. I have no desire to discuss this with you further. I've made my vote and I'm sticking to it for now. I have no wish for you to continue to berate me on my talk page because you disagree with my vote or my reasons for it. Please do not contact me regrading this again, Tom. -- Shinmawa " Debate and discussion are how we work here. Unilaterally declaring that you're done with me is somewhat meaningless and entirely unhelpful.

 * I won't be dragged into a deterioring debate that has no constructive outcome.  I have the right not to be contacted if I don't wish to be.  If you wish to debate, feel free to debate it on the discussion forums, not my talk page.   I shouldn't have to defend my vote to anyone.

6.) AfD is half policy, half ad hoc; it'll probably be that way forever, as something new not covered by policy shows up with astonishing regularity.

 * I agree, but its what we've got.

BTW, I've noted your merge tags on the other entries. I said before if this was done, I would change my vote. I'm a man of my word and agree that merging is the best option. My vote is changing from "keep or merge" to just plain "merge". Just FYI. -- Shinmawa 21:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

You said: I hate to do this, but I'd ask you to consider working with Zordrac on the merge process. You seem to know what you're talking about and he has done his homework; you were also on opposite sides of the delete debate. It seems to me that, if you're both willing, you'd probably produce the fairest and most balanced result of a merge process by working together.
 * I have no problem with this. Sounds like a good idea if Zordrac is willing.  -- Shinmawa 02:04, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The merge has already been done. All that it needs is for CP to be deleted and PoE to have a REDIRECT put on it. And if people REALLY insist on having CP in the talker article, in spite of having no historical significance, then I suppose it can stay. But then there's a whole host of others that could go in as well, and we would keep going forever. Want to add Snowplains as well? Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 05:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

talker
I have taken the steps to merge all of the talkers in to talker, a task which has now been completed, bar the AFDs for PoE and CP. All that needs to be done now is to put a REDIRECT talker on those two articles. By the way, I believe that I am permitted to do the merge myself on the other articles without consultation since I was the only contributor. I have speedy deleted Crossroads (chat site), Ncohafmuta and Lighthouse (chat site), and am requesting also for Crystal Palace (chat site) to similarly be deleted. The reason to do so is because I cannot find a way to merge it from a historical perspective, except with relation to the controversy, and they have requested for their names not to be explicitly mentioned, so I have instead listed them as "a talker" and not mentioned specific details. I will do the same for the other 4 major controversies if they are challenged. I also note that the anon IPs voting on the 2 articles (PoE and CP) probably fall under the definition of a sock puppet, or at least a meat puppet, and their votes probably should be ignored. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 22:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Huh? The merge is done. All that remains is for CP to be deleted and for PoE to have a REDIRECT sign on it. That's it. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 05:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

As I said before, CP has no claims to notoriety, other than things which are not true. Is nowhere near the most popular in history (over 100 talkers have had over 100 users on at a time, their peak is 50), has never even briefly been number 1, has nothing unique about it, and hasn't influenced anything or led to anything. I mean there hasn't been another talker that was based on CP, they haven't released their code publicly, nobody else tried to copy them. There were about 10 talkers before them that had a mix of MUD and talker code, and indeed the MUSH from 1989 was really the first one to do that (and a lot of people refer to MUSHes as talkers...) The biggest claim to notoriety is the controversy, especially surrounding their owner, Virus. Now, if they are determined that they don't want his name mentioned or the talker, then they quite simply aren't notable. They were the 5th, or possibly 6th place to have multiple worlds (there was also Ancient Realms that was the first all-ages place to have multiple worlds). I mean their code is unique, no doubt about that. But every talker's code is unique (apart from lintilla, sleepy's and fantasia's which were identical to each other). Is it more unique than any others? Let's see. Other claim to fame is that they had A, B, C for the 3 different kinds of BDSM. But Iron Rose did that first, and I think maybe 10 other BDSM places had that first. Okay, so they added Vanilla, which the others didn't have, but I don't see that as a big change. Credits? Far from the first to do that. They weren't even the first to use credits in a BDSM setting. First to make their own code? Nope, lots of places did that. First to claim that their code was entirely unique and different from any others? Well, they probably did that with more certainty than anyone else had ever done - even Ncohafmuta concedes that it is based on Iforms which is based on NUTS. Its actually a bit of a joke where they pretend that their code was created from scratch, when it obviously wasn't. But probably not a joke to them. Probably to them they honestly believe that. I just find it odd that you could create something from scratch yet it ends up looking like it would if it was based on something else. I mean I really struggle to find any uniqueness there. But look, for the sake of peace, keep it, but then for the sake of fairness, we are going to have to add 100 more equally notable ones. Those are the 3 options really - 1) add 100 other equally notable ones 2) delete it 3) include the controversies and specifically list them. The thing is that it's not just that they don't want the controversies displayed in a certain way - they want them wiped.  They've admitted and agreed that they happened pretty much exactly as I first said, they just don't want the world to know about it.  So I dunno.

As for creating a rift, I'm not all that worried about that. These people will stay here for a few days, get bored, and then leave to do whatever they were doing before. There's no real possibility that they will become actual editors. They are just here to try to make it look like Virus was a good guy and CP has never had any problems. That's all that they care about. Another reason why deletion is the best option. If Virus himself wants it deleted, then I don't see why we should disagree. It'd be a lot easier if we did that. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 06:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I am quite confident that these people have no genuine interest in Wikipedia. In the 4 days that they've been editing, only 1 has made a significant number of editing, all of them personal attacks on me. Check out some of the edit messages. So I am sure that it is just goading, and that if I leave them alone, then they'll go away, get bored and so forth. I think that it is at the stage where we just have to accept the demands, so I am just going to let them do that, even if it means them advertising their site, and writing about it like an advert, and getting rid of "my" talker, the PoE one, plus any other ones that they don't like (apparently they've got a problem with surfers as well, since it "claims" to be the most popular ever - and they actually dispute that - they must be the only people in the world to dispute that). And they will write down that CP is the most popular in history. I actually saw that written there at one point, and had to revert it. But I guess we just have to accept that that is what they will write. So really this is just not worth it. Hostility, nastiness. I wonder why anyone would go to their talker if thats what they are like. lol. It seemed to me like they were trying to "ban" me from their talker, and that that's what they thought that they were doing. lol. There was apparently an order from Virus to do all of this, and the coordination is on their talker. So someone who is a wikipedia regularly obviously went to their talker to help to organise it. Who that is is speculative. But anyway, whatever. I for one think that the talker article as it is now is very close to perfect. I guess that there are tiny little fiddly bits that could be done, but I am quite proud of it. It looks better than the Peter Falconio article. And yes, the merge idea worked well in the end. I was reluctant at first, but I think in the end that it looks good like that, and I managed to do it without ruining the article's flow. By the way, do you want to look through the MUD articles? I heard from somewhere that they probably need pruning. By the way, I did just make a (stubby) article for Aardwolf MUD, which is statistically the most popular mud in the world for the past 9 years straight. Somewhat surprised me that that was not one of the 46 articles. But maybe popularity isn't enough. That one only gets 500-1,000 people on at a time, with a highest ever of just on 5,000. Not much really. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 07:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Arabic Numerals
Thanks for your message, but I had taken this up on the talk page many times if you would check that. The recent additions were simply a bunch of original research after the deletion of credible supporting material to the prior version of the article. If you would challenge any part of the version I reverted, then please follow your own advice and take it up on the talk page.--Astriolok 15:57, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Crystal Palace (chat site) and related issues
I've posted my reply here. Owen× ☎  02:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Tom. I've decided to leave them be now. I think that I have contributed enough there, and I will just have to stay out of it. I think that I'll have to use Eventualism to just say that eventually they'll get bored of harassment etc (unless I get wikistalked in to other articles) and either start editing properly, or else just up and leave. So I will go off and do other things now. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 08:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

WP:MC
WP:MC/S copy one of those for a template in posting your nom correctly. Cheers, R  e  dwolf24  (talk)  Attention Washingtonians!  04:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Medcom
Hello. The medcom is filled up with cases, and I have no open mediators other than myself, and I'm only getting 20 minutes a day on a computer lately. Meanwhile, the medcom wants more to judge you on. So, you may take a case of your choice in the first section at WP:RFM, and update Template:MedComOpenTasks, writing in deputy mediator near your name. R e  dwolf24  (talk)  Attention Washingtonians!  10:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

 * (West Azerbaijan province of Iran)

Hi and Thank you Tomlillis. I try answer your questions in a clear way:

1 .)

a) Kurds are majority (about 80%) in West Azerbaijan province by the population and land.

b),  , ,,,,
 * Credible sources regarding Kurds are majority in West Azerbaijan province of Iran:

, , ,, , Warning: Might Offend, A Kurdish activitist in West Azerbaijan province
 * Status of the Kurds in Iran and West Azerbaijan province of Iran:

, ,
 * Despite of all of the above mentioned political, religious, ethnical, cultural... etc. reasons (and there are thousands other ones like those) even official sources do not (or can not) claim kurds are minority or even a significant minority but as a main group:

2. ) The user user is trying to push that the majority of the population in the province is not kurdish but turkish and keeps deleting a credible map (the only one) which is clearly showing the borders of the province.

Thank you  D iyako Talk + 15:17, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

The Kurds in West Azerbaijan Province of Iran
Request mediation for article West Azerbaijan. User:Zereshk keeps putting unverified (+ protected) tagg for no acceptable reason regarding the Kurds in Northern part of the province, despite of numerous credible sources. Thank you.  D iyako Talk + 01:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Random user you have targeted
Excuse me, but your comment here:

''Please stop adding nonsense to Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you.

''Your edits to Muhammad are inherently subjective, point-of-view-pushing, and inflammatory. Please stop. Tom Lillis 22:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)''

retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:*****"

Is inaccurate. I was editing the Shenmue Online page at the time, I have not made any changes to the "Muhammed" article whatsoever, nor have I visited it. I was not posting "nonsense" of any kind.

I believe you got IP Addresses mixed up, or you are just being a prick to random people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.187.68 (talk • contribs)

Update
Yes, and you called me a rasict. GOOD DAY. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.187.68 (talk • contribs)

beckjord
I removed my threat to trash wiki a week back.

Please note.

beckjordBeckjord 06:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

sliderule history
Not removed, just intended to move it to the top, & had to save the page to get back. If you reverted, check again; I saved after moving. Don't need 2 history sections. Trekphiler 10:39, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Whoa, fast response! Feel free to delete these posts at your convenience... Trekphiler 10:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

reply to reply
Thanks. Good on you staying on top of it! I'm in complete agreement, there's enough ignorance (not to mention stupidity) to go around, which is why I've been posting questions, comments, & rare edits. As for deleting, we disagree. Unless it's substantive, or contains something of interest, I'll pull it after 2-3 days, so you'll be gone soon.... Trekphiler 10:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Mediation
While some people's behaviour is still uncivil, I think the main issues on West Azerbaijan have been resolved last night. So I guess your mediation is probably irrelevant now. Refdoc 23:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not the person you name but I did the articles based on extensive coverage he receives in the Scottish printed press & television, not just "on a bit of protest coverage by the BBC". Winning Parliamentary debates which turn into successful legislation & changes in regulatory rules, helping users of a required service - that of a solicitor is on the whole, more than 'a bit of a protest'.

You can delete the articles if you like. It is your privilege to do so.

For the avoidance of doubt, in the short statement left in the blanked article, there was no one identified by name who "demanded " that the article be removed.

i note the matter & issues arising. Based on this, I am no longer interested in wikipedia.

Lawscottie 00:54, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Erik Beckjord
I'm not hellbent on keeping the critical stuff out. Since so many ppl want to trash him, I just like for ppl to take a second look before they add stuff. I realize what you are saying that he is not popular due to his research, but rather the entertainment value. In fact, I've said that several times to others. I just get a kick out of him.

You seem to be a fairly reasonable guy, so I'll just defer to your judgement as to whether to restore those additions. --DanielCD 15:54, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV ?
How can "an advoacte of NPOV" made the edit you made (without it seems bothering to understand the whole background) is beyond me. If you indeed read the whole relevant talk page and indeed think that you have contributed to NPOV I apologize in adavnce on this comment (but I would still disagree with you about the edit being toward NPOV) Zeq 15:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

what "provocative comment in the article text" ? Zeq 16:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

do you mean the comment "In fact, even describing the dispute is very much disputed, so someone will probably remove this text not before too long " ?

If so let's break it to two parts:

"In fact, even describing the dispute is very much disputed" - true but irelevant "so someone will probably remove this text not before too long " - indeed occured but also iralvant

Nither of them are my original text ( a left over from someone else) so I don't have a problem with removing them.

Is that all you object too ? Zeq 16:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

did not understood your last message at all. (all 3 parts of it)

Is that all you object too ? Zeq 16:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I understand. I agree it is not a solution and not even a step toward solution. But the text you have revereted to is LESS NPOV. so I suggest: Remove the part you object to otherwise restore the slightly more NPOV text.

An alternative: Detele the article all together from wkipedia while both sides as part of mediation workout a brand new NPOV text. Not having an article on this subject in wikipedia will be a catalizator for encouraging cooperation by the Pro palestinian side. I will comit not to intreduce undue delayes. Zeq 16:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Mediation Committee
I'm sorry to have to be the bearer of bad news, but I must inform you that your request to join the Mediation Committee has been denied. The Committee has a policy of denying requests where two or more mediators oppose the nomination, and unfortunately, your nomination was opposed by two members. Please feel free to reapply in the future, and to take on informal mediation tasks as the opportunity presents itself. You may also be interested in the Mediation Cabal. Again, my apologies.
 * For the Mediation Committee, Essjay  Talk •  Contact 07:25, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Commas
If you're going to be changing a lot of puncatuation you may want to have a look at what the manual of style has to stay about that subject: Manual of Style. Qutezuce 00:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia New York Meet-Up
Howdy! Please come to the First Annual New York Wikipedian Central Park Picnic. R.S.V.P. @ Meetup/NYC --David Shankbone 18:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

"Hugh O'Neill disambiguation" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Hugh O&. Since you had some involvement with the Hugh O'Neill disambiguation redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. DannyS712 (talk) 01:07, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tomlillis


text:
Figueira

Figueira may refer to:

Brazil

 * Figueira, Paraná

Cape Verde

 * Figueira Pavão, Fogo Island
 * Figueira (Maio), Maio Island
 * Figueira da Naus, Santiago Island

Portugal

 * Figueira da Foz, a city and municipality in the district of Coimbra
 * Figueira de Castelo Rodrigo, a municipality in the district of Guarda
 * Figueira (Faro), a village in the municipality of Faro
 * Figueira, a civil parish in the municipality of Lamego
 * Figueira, a civil parish in the municipality of Penafiel
 * Figueira (Proença a Nova), a village in the civil parish of Sobreira Formosa

People

 * Daniel Figueira (born 1998), a Portuguese footballer
 * Edmar Figueira (born 1984), a Brazilian footballer
 * Gilberto Figueira, nicknamed Uaué, (born 1988), an Angolan handball player
 * Guilhem Figueira, Languedocian jongleur and troubadour of XIII century
 * José Figueira, (born 1982), an English-Spanish football manager
 * Manuel Figueira (born 1938), a Cape Verdean artist
 * Maria Luisa Figueira (born 1944), a Portuguese psychiatrist
 * Maria Tomásia Figueira Lima (1826-1902), Brazilian aristocrat, abolitionist
 * Nayara Figueira (born 9 June 1988), a Brazilian synchronized swimmer.
 * Roberto Horcades Figueira (born 1947), a Brazilian cardiologist
 * Tchalé Figueira (born 1953), a Cape Verdean artist
 * Tony Figueira (footballer) (born 1981 as José Antonio Pestana Figueira), a Venezuela-born Portuguese footballer
 * Tony Figueira (photographer) (1959–2017), a Namibian photographer
 * Walter Figueira (born 1995), English footballer

Other uses

 * Fig tree, the literal translation of Portuguese "figueira".

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Figueira


text:
Mudéjar art

Mudéjar art, or Mudéjar style, was a type of ornamentation and decoration used in the Iberian Christian kingdoms, primarily between the 13th and 16th centuries. It was applied to Romanesque, Gothic and Renaissance architectural styles as constructive, ornamental and decorative motifs derived from those that had been brought to or developed in Al-Andalus. These motifs and techniques were also present in the art and crafts, especially Hispano-Moresque lustreware that was once widely exported across Europe from southern and eastern Spain at the time.

The term Mudejar art was coined by the art historian José Amador de los Ríos y Serrano in reference to the Mudéjars, who played a leading role in introducing Islamic derived decorative elements into the Iberian Christian kingdoms. The Mudéjars were the Muslims who remained in the former areas of Al-Andalus after the Christian Reconquista in the Middle Ages and were allowed to practice their religion to a limited degree. Mudéjar art is valuable in that it represents peaceful co-existence between Muslims and Christians during the medieval era, although all Muslims and Jews in Spain eventually were forced to convert to Christianity or exiled between the late 15th century and the early-to-mid 16th century.

The Mudéjar decorative elements were developed in Iberia specially in the context of historic architecture. There was a revival in the late-19th and the early-20th-century Spain and Portugal as Neo-Mudéjar style.

Etymology
Mudéjar was originally the term used for Muslims of Al-Andalus who remained after the Christian reconquest of Muslim controlled territories in the later Middle Ages but were not initially converted to Christianity or exiled. It was a medieval Castilian borrowing of the Arabic word Mudajjan مدجن, meaning "tamed", referring to Muslims who submitted to the rule of Christian kings. The term likely originated as a taunt, as the word was usually applied to domesticated animals such as poultry. The term Mudéjar can also be translated from Arabic as "one permitted to remain", which references Christians allowing Muslims to remain in Christian Iberia. The concept "arte mudéjar" was coined and defined by the Spanish art historian José Amador de los Ríos y Serrano in his induction discourse El estilo mudéjar, en arquitectura at the Academia de Bellas Artes de San Fernando in 1859.

Muslims in medieval Christian kingdoms
The Muslims living in the medieval Christian kingdoms of the Iberian peninsula, called Mudejars, were tolerated and could practice their religion with certain restrictions. However, soon after the last Muslim stronghold in the peninsula, the Granada, fell to the Christian Castile in 1492, Muslims were forced to choose between becoming Christians or to leave, first in Castile and soon after in Aragon. Those who chose to convert and stay were called Moriscos, and were often suspected of secretly practicing Islam, and were finally expelled from Spain after 1609.

What allowed Mudejar culture to survive and flourish in the medieval Christian kingdoms depended upon whether the capture by Christians was accomplished through negotiated surrender or military defeat, the ratio of Muslim to Christian populations, the competing interests of the monarchy and the papacy, and economic exigencies. With a balance of these things, Mudejar art was born. As a result of this local variation, the Islamic influences that were absorbed into the Christian architectural practices of the different regions in the Christian kingdoms differed greatly, but all come under the general umbrella term of Mudejar art.

Mudéjar style in architecture

Mudejar style in architecture refers to the application of decorative Islamic art styled motifs and patterning to Christian styles of architecture. It is thought to have begun with Muslim craftsmen who applied traditional constructive, ornamental, and decorative elements derived from the Islamic arts to Christian styles of architecture. These methods became part of local Christian building traditions and were applied to Romanesque, Gothic, and Renaissance architectural styles in the expanding Christian kingdoms of Iberia. These decorative techniques included calligraphy, intricate geometry, and vegetal forms derived from Islamic art and architecture.

Mudejar constructive systems were very simple and extremely effective. The materials used included brick, along with other artificial stone materials, and wood, which were not only entrusted with a constructive function but which were also decorative. Brick held great importance as a material of construction, its maneuverability and resistance, aesthetic characteristics and inexpensive nature, made it suitable for architecture that needed to be built in a timely fashion.

Mudejar decoration and ornamentation includes stylized calligraphy and intricate geometric and vegetal forms. The classic Mudéjar elements include the horseshoe and multi-lobed arch, muqarna vaults, alfiz (molding around an arch), wooden roofing, fired bricks, glazed ceramic tiles, and ornamental stucco work. Mudejar plasterwork, sometimes called Yeseria, includes all the Islamic motifs, such as epigraphic, “atauriques,” or arabesque ornament, and geometrical motifs, although motifs of Christian art are also included, such as Gothic vegetables and shields, they are depicted in the rhythm of Islamic tradition, which plays an important role in chromatics. Mudéjar often makes use of girih geometric strapwork decoration, as used in Middle East architecture, where Maghreb buildings tended to use vegetal arabesques. Scholars have sometimes considered the geometric forms, both girih and the complex vaultings of muqarnas, as innovative, and arabesques as retardataire, but in Al-Andalus, both geometric and vegetal forms were freely used and combined.

Iberian Peninsula

With the re-establishment of Christian rule throughout the formerly Muslim controlled areas of Iberia came the different Mudéjar construction methods for creating a building using inexpensive materials like brick, wood, and stucco. It is generally accepted by scholars that Mudéjar art in architecture first appeared in the northern town of Sahagún in the 12th century Christian Kingdom of León. Mudéjar spread to other parts of the Kingdom of León: notable examples can be found in Toledo, Ávila, Segovia, Toro, Cuéllar, Arévalo and Madrigal de las Altas Torres. Later, Mudéjar was spread into southern Spain by the Kingdom of Castile. A particularly fine example of Mudéjar Renaissance is the Casa de Pilatos, built in the early 16th century at Seville. Seville includes many other examples of Mudéjar art. The Alcázar of Seville is considered one of the greatest surviving examples of Mudéjar Gothic and Mudéjar Renaissance architecture although its so-called Mudéjar Rooms are directly related to the Moorish Nasirid architecture of the Alhambra rather than to Mudéjar art techniques; the Christian king Pedro of Castile employed architects from the then Islamic Emirate of Granada to construct them.

Mudéjar art emerged in the north-eastern Christian Kingdom of Aragon in the 12th century and includes more than a hundred surviving examples, located predominantly in the valleys of the Ebro, Jalón and Jiloca. Its first manifestations have two origins: on the one hand, a palatial architecture linked to the Christian monarchy, which amended and extended the originally Moorish Aljafería Palace and maintained an Islamic ornamental tradition, and on the other hand, a tradition that developed Romanesque architecture using brickwork rather than stone construction and which often displays Hispanic ornamental tracery. Examples of the latter type of Mudéjar elements can be seen in churches in Daroca, which were started in stone and finished off in the 13th century with Mudéjar brick panels.

Portugal commissioned fewer Mudéjar decorated buildings, which generally incorporated simpler Mudéjar elements. The Church of Castro de Avelãs in Braganza features classic Mudéjar art brick work. Mudéjar also tended to be applied to the gothic Manueline style in Portugal, which was very lavish and ornate. Portuguese use of Mudéjar art developed particularly in the 15th and 16th centuries, and structures such as the Palace of the Counts of Basto and the Royal Palace feature characteristic wooden Mudéjar roofs that are also to be found in some churches in towns such as Sintra and Lisbon. Since trade was an essential part of Portugal's culture in the 16th century, imported Mudéjar art decorated tiles from Seville appear in churches and palaces, such as the Royal Palace of Sintra.

Hispanic America
Christian builders and craftsmen carried Mudéjar style elements to the overseas territories of the Spanish empire, especially in the 16th century, complementing Renaissance architecture before the emergence of Baroque. The Mudéjar "style" in architecture is most accurately described as a “common visual language” rather than a cohesive structure with particular regulations. This led to Mudejar design themes in the New World to be considered purely a continuation of an architectural blend that was unique to Spain.

The Church of San Miguel in Sucre, Bolivia, provides an example of Mudéjar in Hispanic America with its interior decorations and the open floor plan. Mudéjar geometric design can be seen through its octagonal patterned wood ceiling and in the underside of the supporting arches, which are carved with a vegetable motif based on the arabesque. San Miguel is a direct inheritor of the Mudéjar and tradition of the expansion and multiplication of an initial pattern. Around the octagonal dome, there are more wooden ceiling panels carved with the same pattern as the church's ceiling. Additionally, the white stucco walls demonstrate the Baroque influence on the church exemplifying the transculturation found in Spanish architecture.

Some other notable examples of Mudejar design in Hispanic America are:

 * The Monastery of San Francisco in Lima, Peru also contains Mudéjar elements. The vaults of the central and two side naves are painted in Mudéjar style. The halls of the head cloister are inlaid with Sevillian glazed tiles, and the main altar is made entirely from carved wood.
 * The Iglesia del Espíritu Santo in Havana, Cuba.
 * Other examples of Mudéjar art can be found in Coro, a UNESCO World Heritage Site in Venezuela.

Decorative arts
Mudejar artisans brought into the Christian kingdoms the elaborate geometric designs found in tilework, brickwork, wood carving, plasterwork, ceramics, and ornamental metals of Al-Andalus. Objects, as well as ceilings and walls, were often decorated with rich and complicated designs, as Mudéjar artists were not only interested in relaying wonder, a key feature of Islamic art and architectural traditions, but in conveying the sumptuousness of materials and ornament. Many decorative arts were applied to architecture, such as the tiling and ceramic work, as well as carving practices.

To enliven the surfaces of wall and floor, Mudéjar art developed complicated tiling patterns. The motifs on tile work are often abstract, leaning more on vegetal designs and straying from figural images (which is common in Islamic work). The colors of tile work of the Mudéjar period are much brighter and more vibrant than other European styles. The production process was also typical of techniques that had been used in Islamic Iberia, the tile was fired before it was cut into smaller, more manageable pieces. This approach meant that the tiles and glaze work shrank less in the firing process, and retained their designs more clearly. This allowed the tiles to be laid closer together with less grout, making the compositions more intricate and cohesive.

Ceramics
Ceramics had been a sophisticated art form during the period of Islamic rule in the Iberian Peninsula and Mudéjar style ceramics were built on the techniques developed in the previous centuries of Islamic art. Pottery centers all over Spain - e.g. Paterna, Toledo, Seville - focused on making a range of objects, from bowls and plates to candlesticks. Mudejar style ceramics were typically worked in three “styles:” green-purple ware (manganese green), (cobalt) blue ware, and gold-glazed ware (lusterware). Mudejar artisans introduced their perfected glazing techniques to Medieval Europe where Mudejar pottery from Manises, Paterna, and Teruel were the most popular. A transparent glaze could be achieved through the mixing of lead and tin for an opaque, shiny white glaze, and mixtures of metal oxides were applied to the glazed and fired surfaces to create lustre decoration. This technique was carried on from the Nasrid period. Typically, artisans would apply a layer of opaque white glaze before the colors. On top of the white, cobalt blue, green copper, and purple manganese oxides were used to make vibrant, shimmering surfaces with the appearance of gold and other precious metals. Similarly to tile and stucco work, ceramic motifs included vegetal patterns, in addition to figurative motifs, calligraphy, and geometric patterns and images. There are also Christian influences in the imagery, such as boats, fern leaves, hearts, and castles.

Neo-Mudéjar
Mudéjar art has had modern revivals, the most important in Spain and Portugal being Neo-Mudéjar that appeared in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It combined modern architecture and materials, including cast iron and glass with Mudéjar art styled arches, tiling, and brickwork.

Some Spanish architectural firms have turned their attention to building projects in the modern Arabic-speaking world, specifically Morocco, Algeria, and Eastern Arabia, where Mudéjar art influences are commissioned as a preferred style of housing. Mudéjar characteristics continue to act as a foundation for modernizing styles. Muslim architects are also currently making great strides in terms of modern architecture, reflecting the technical and engineering feats, as well as aesthetic expertise, reminiscent of the Mudéjar styles.

title: Mudéjar art


text:
User talk:Camalex

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

Here are some tips to help you get started:

 * To sign your posts (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).
 * Try the Tutorial, and feel free to experiment in the test area.
 * If you need help, post a question at the Help Desk
 * Eventually, you might want to read the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines.
 * Remember Neutral point of view
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck!

Meelar (talk) 23:49, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Stool.JPG
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May 2008
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September 2008
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RfD nomination of True cricket
I have nominated for discussion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. uKER (talk) 19:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:Camalex


text:
Battle of Sitka

The Battle of Sitka (Сражение при Ситке; 1804) was the last major armed conflict between Russians and Alaska Natives, and was initiated in response to the destruction of a Russian trading post two years before. The primary combatant groups were the Kiks.ádi ("Ones of Kíks", Frog/Raven) Clan of Sheetʼká Xʼáatʼi (Baranof Island) of the Tlingit nation and agents of the Russian-American Company assisted by the Imperial Russian Navy.

Previous colonization and resistance
Members of the Kiks.ádi of the indigenous Tlingit people had occupied portions of the Alaska Panhandle, including Sheetʼká Xʼáat'i (present-day Baranof Island), for some 11,000 years. Alexandr Baranov (Chief Manager of the Russian-American Company) first visited the island aboard the Ekaterina in 1795 while searching for new sea otter hunting grounds. Baranov paid the Tlingit a sum for the rights to the land in order to prevent "interlopers" from conducting trade on the island.

On 7 July 1799, Baranov, with 100 fellow Russians, sailed into Sitka Sound aboard the galley Olga, the brig Ekaterina, the packet boat Orel; and a fleet of some 550 baidarkas, carrying 700 Aleuts and 300 other natives.

Wishing to avoid a confrontation with the Kiks.ádi, the group passed by the strategic hilltop encampment where the Tlingit had established Noow Tlein ("Big Fort") and made landfall at their second-choice building site, some 7 miles (11 kilometers) north of the colony. The location of the Russian settlement at Katlianski Bay, "Redoubt Saint Michael", is known today as Starrigavan Bay, or "Old Harbor" (from Russian старая гавань stáraya gavanʼ) The outpost consisted of a large warehouse, blacksmith shop, cattle sheds, barracks, stockade, block house, a bath house, quarters for the hunters, and a residence for Baranov.

Though the Koloshi (the Russian name for the Tlingit, based on the Alutiiq name for the Tlingit) initially welcomed the newcomers, their animosity toward the Russians grew in relatively short order. The Kiks.ádi objected to the Russian traders' custom of taking native women as their wives, and were constantly taunted by other Tlingit clans who looked upon the "Sitkas" as the outsiders' kalga, or slaves. The Kiks.ádi came to realize that the Russians' continued presence demanded their allegiance to the Tsar, and that they therefore were expected to provide free labor to the Company. Competition between the two groups for the island's resources would escalate as well.

1802 battle
Despite a number of unsuccessful Tlingit attacks against the post during the winter of 1799, business soon prospered. Urgent matters required that Baranov return to Kodiak (then capital of Russian America) in 1800. 25 Russians and 55 Aleuts, under the direction of Vasilii G. Medvednikov, were left to staff the post. In spring 1802, the population of Redoubt Saint Michael had grown to include 29 Russians, 3 British deserters, 200 Aleuts, and a few Kodiak women. It was rumored that the British (under the auspices of the Hudson's Bay Company) staged a meeting with the northern Tlingit clans in Angoon in 1801, wherein they offered muskets and gunpowder to the Tlingit in exchange for exclusive fur trading rights.

In June 1802, a group of Tlingit warriors attacked the Russian fort at mid-day. Led by Skautlelt (Shḵ'awulyéil) and Kotleian, the raiding party massacred many, looted the sea otter pelts, and burned the settlement, including a ship under construction. A few Russians and Aleuts who had been away from the post hunting, or who had fled into the forest, subsequently reached safety and relayed news of the attack. British Captain Barber, Unicorn, seized the ringleaders, rescued 3 Russians, 20 other native allies, and many of the pelts. The Unicorn then set sail for Kodiak, where it delivered the survivors and the news of the attack to Baranov on June 24. Barber extracted a ransom of 10,000 rubles for the return of the colonists — a mere 20% of his initial demand.

Russian reprisal
Following the Kiks.ádi victory, Tlingit Shaman Stoonook, confident that the Russians would soon return, and in force, urged the clan to construct a new fortification that was capable of withstanding cannon fire, and provided an ample water supply. Despite strong opposition, the Shaman's will prevailed, and the Kiks.ádi made preparations for war. The Sitkas sent messages to their allies requesting assistance, but none was forthcoming; they would face the Russian fleet on their own.

The Tlingit chose to construct the roughly 240 feet by 165 feet (73 by 50 meters) Shís'gi Noow (the "Fort of Young Saplings") at the high water line near the mouth of the Indian River to take advantage of the long gravel beach flats that extend far out into the bay; it was hoped that the shallows would prevent the Russian ships from attacking the installation at close range. Some 1,000 native spruce logs were used in the construction of 14 buildings (barabaras) and the thick palisade wall that surrounded them. The Kiks.ádi battle plan was a simple one: they would gauge the Russians' strength and intentions at Noow Tlein, then strategically retreat to the perceived safety of the new fort. Baranov returned to Sitka Sound in late September 1804 aboard the sloop-of-war Neva under the command of Lieutenant Commander Yuri Feodorovich Lisyansky. Neva was accompanied by the Ermak and two other smaller, armed sailing ships, manned by 150 promyshlenniks (fur traders), along with 400–500 Aleuts in 250 baidarkas.

In this engagement, fortune favored the Russians from the outset. On September 29, the Russians went ashore at the winter village. Lisyansky dubbed the site "Novo-Arkhangel'skaya Mikhailovskaya" (or "New Archangel Saint Michael"), a reference to the largest city in the region where Governor Baranov was born. Baranov immediately sent forth envoys to the Tlingit settlement with offers of negotiation for the Noow Tlein site, all of which were rebuffed. The Tlingit merely hoped to stall the Russians long enough to allow the natives to abandon their winter village and occupy the "sapling fort" without the enemy fleet taking notice.

However, when the Kiks.ádi sent a small, armed party to retrieve their gunpowder reserves from an island in nearby Shaaseiyi Aan (Jamestown Bay), the group (electing not to wait for the cover of darkness, instead returning in broad daylight) was spotted and engaged in brief a firefight with the Russians. An errant round struck the canoe in which the Tlingit were transporting the gunpowder, igniting the cargo and causing it to explode. When the smoke cleared, it was evident that none of the expedition, comprising upper-caste young men from each house (all future Clan leaders) and a highly respected elder, survived the encounter. Baranov's emissaries notified the Tlingit that the Russian ships would soon begin firing on the new fort.

Day one
On or about October 1, Neva was towed by the Aleut from Krestof Sound into the shoals near the mouth of the Indian River. A Russian landing party, led by Baranov and accompanied by about 150 men, assaulted the Tlingit compound, only to be met by continuous volleys of gunfire. The Aleuts panicked and broke ranks, retreating to the shore where their baidarkas waited.

The Kiks.ádi warriors, led by their new War Chief Ḵʼalyaan (Katlian) — wearing a Raven mask and armed with a blacksmith's hammer, surged out of Shis'kí Noow and engaged the attacking force in hand-to-hand combat; a second wave of Tlingit emerged from the adjacent woods in a "pincer" maneuver. Baranov was seriously injured and the Russians fell back to the water's edge, just as Neva opened fire to cover the retreat. Twelve of the attackers were killed and many others injured during the melee, and the Russians were forced to abandon several small artillery pieces on the beach. Lisiansky reports only two were killed, but fourteen wounded (one mortally), and they were able to save their guns.

That night, the Tlingit rejoiced at having repulsed the Russian onslaught.

Day two

In as much as Baranov's battlefield wounds prevented him from continuing the battle, Lieutenant Commander Lisyansky assumed command, ordering his ships to begin shore bombardment of the Tlingit position. The initial barrage consisted mainly of "ranging shots" as the vessels attempted to determine the optimum firing range. Unable to breach the fort's walls, the Russians ceased fire in the early afternoon and sent a messenger ashore under a flag of truce. According to Lisyansky,

 * It was constructed of wood, so thick and strong, that the shot from my guns could not penetrate it at the short distance of a cable's length.

Much to the Kiks.ádi's amusement, the message demanded their surrender, which they rejected out of hand. The Tlingit replied with their own demand that the Russians surrender, which was also rejected. The Russian cannon fire resumed until nightfall. After dark, the Kiks.ádi met to consider their situation. They all believed that the Russians suffered too many losses the day before to mount another ground attack. The Tlingit's goal had been to hold out long enough to allow the northern clans to arrive and reinforce their numbers, but the shortage of gunpowder limited their ability to remain under siege, a factor that made ultimate victory seem less likely. The Tlingit concluded that a change in tactics was in order: rather than suffer the ignominy of defeat on the battlefield, they formulated a strategy wherein the Clan would disappear into the surrounding forest (where they felt that the Russians could not engage them) and establish a new settlement on the northern part of the island.

Day three
Neva and her escorts resumed their day-long bombardment of the Tlingit fort at sunrise. The Kiks.ádi responded with offers of a truce, hostage exchanges, promises of more talks, and even the possibility of surrender. Unbeknownst to the Russians, the Clan's elderly and young children had already begun the trek to G̱aajaa Héen (Old Sitka). At nightfall, the House Chiefs met again to discuss their planned march across the island. Mothers with infant children were to depart in the morning.

Day four
The naval cannon fire began at daybreak, halting periodically to allow the Russians to extend offers of peace to the Kiks.ádi, which were in turn rejected. That afternoon, the Tlingits' response was that they had tired of battle, and would accede to the Russian demands to evacuate Shís'gi Noow the following day. Once the sun had set, the natives held their last gathering in the sapling fort. The elders offered praise for their clansmen who had defended the Kiks.ádi homeland against a formidable enemy. The Clan gathered together for a last song, one that ended with a loud drum roll and a wail of anguish (which the Russians interpreted as a sign of their surrender).

The Tlingit then departed undetected under the cover of darkness.

Aftermath
It was not until the evening of 4 October that the Kiks.ádi began their retreat. The Russians landed a large contingent of troops to secure the beachhead and to reconnoiter the area in and around Shís'gi Noow. To their great surprise, none of the natives was to be found as, unbeknownst to the Russians, the Tlingit had embarked on what is now referred to as the "Sitka Kiks.ádi Survival March".

On 8 October, Captain Lisianski visited the abandoned Tlingit fortification, in which he estimated eight hundred males lived, and recorded:
 * ...what anguish did I feel, when I saw, like a second massacre of innocents, numbers of young children lying together murdered, lest their cries, if they had been borne away with their cruel parents, should have led to a discovery of the retreat...

The fort was razed to preclude the possibility of its being used as a stronghold against the Russians and their allies ever again. Neva sailed out of Sitka Sound on 10 November.

In January 2021, the fort was rediscovered using electromagnetic induction.

"Sitka Kiks.ádi Survival March"
The first leg of the Tlingit's sojourn entailed a hike west from  G ajaa Héen to Daxéit (the Clan's fishing camp at Nakwasina Sound, where each May the Kiks.ádi harvested herring eggs, a traditional native food). From there, the group's exact path across the mountains north to Cháatl Ḵáa Noow (the Kiks.ádi "Halibut Man Fort" at Point Craven in the Peril Strait) is a matter of some conjecture. However, a coastal route around the bays of northwest Baranof Island appears to be the most likely course as it would have allowed the travelers to circumvent the Island's dense forests, based on significant firsthand research into the event conducted by Herb and Frank Hope of the Sheetʼká Ḵwáan — Sitka Tribe of Alaska. Canoes fashioned out of red cedar trunks facilitated the ocean crossing to Chichagof Island.

Several warriors remained in the vicinity of Noow Tlein after the Battle as a sort of rear guard, in order to both harass the Russian settlers and to prevent them from pursuing the Kiks.ádi during their flight north. Shortly thereafter, eight Aleut trappers were killed in Jamestown Bay and another was shot in the woods adjacent to New Archangel. From that point forward, Russian hunting parties went out in force, ever alert to the possibility of attack. The Kiks.ádi encouraged other Tlingit clans to avoid contact with the Russians by any means possible.

In November, 1805, Cháatl Ḵáa Noow was visited by John DeWolf and Georg von Langsdorff from Sitka, with several Alutiiq men and the daughter of a Tlingit clan head to serve as translator, provided by Baranov. The visit lasted two days. DeWolf and Langsdorff's writings provide some useful information on the state of affairs at the time.

Russian Alaska
Atop the kekoor (hill) at Noow Tlein, the Russians constructed a fortress (krepostʼ) of their own, consisting of a high wooden palisade with three watchtowers (armed with 32 cannons) for defense against Tlingit attacks.

By the summer of 1805, a total of 8 buildings had been erected inside the compound, including workshops, barracks, and the Governor's Residence. Aside from their annual expeditions to "Herring Rock" near the mouth of the Indian River, the Kiks.ádi by-and-large steered clear of the ever-expanding settlement until 1821, when the Russians (who intended to profit from the natives' hunting prowess, and to put an end to the sporadic attacks on the village) invited the Tlingit to return to Sitka, which was designated as the new capital of Russian America in 1808.

The Tlingit who chose to return were allowed to reside in a part of the village just below the heavily guarded stockade on "Blockhouse Hill" (an area known as the Ranche until around 1965). Russian cannon were constantly trained on the natives as a reminder of their defeat at Shís'gi Noow. The Kiks.ádi supplied the Russians with food and otter pelts, while the colonists introduced the Tlingit to the various aspects of Russian culture and the Russian Orthodox Church. Occasional acts of Tlingit aggression continued until 1858, with one significant uprising (though quickly quelled) occurring in 1855.

In 1867 Russian America was sold to the U.S. After that, all the holdings of the Russian–American Company's holdings were liquidated. Following the transfer, many elders of the local Tlingit tribe maintained that "Castle Hill" comprised the only land that Russia was entitled to sell. Native land claims were not addressed until the latter half of the 20th century, with the signing of the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act.

The 1880 census reported a population of 43 Tlingit living in and around the Indian River, the Kiks.ádi's traditional summer fishing camp.

Tributes
U.S. President Benjamin Harrison set aside the Shís'gi Noow site for public use in 1890. Sitka National Historical Park was established on the battle site on October 18, 1972 "...to commemorate the Tlingit and Russian experiences in Alaska." Today, the K'alyaan Pole stands guard over the Shís'gi Noow site to honor the Tlingit casualties. Ta Eetí, a memorial to the Russian sailors who died in the Battle, is across the Indian River at site of the Russians' landing. In September 2004, in observance of the Battle's bicentennial, descendants of the combatants from both sides joined in a traditional Tlingit "Cry Ceremony" to formally mourn their lost ancestors. The next day, the Kiks.ádi hosted a formal reconciliation ceremony to "put away" their two centuries of grief.

Historic designations

 * National Register of Historic Places #NPS–66000162 — "Baranof Castle Hill" site
 * National Register of Historic Places #NPS–66000164 — "Battle of Sitka" site
 * National Register of Historic Places #NPS–66000166 — Old Sitka ("Redoubt Saint Michael") site

title: Battle of Sitka


text: User talk:69.208.212.21

title: User talk:69.208.212.21


text:
Pericallis × hybrida

Pericallis × hybrida, known as cineraria, florist's cineraria or common ragwort is a flowering plant in the family Asteraceae. It originated as a hybrid between Pericallis cruenta and P. lanata, both natives of the Canary Islands. The hybrid was first developed in the British royal gardens in 1777. It was originally known as Cineraria × hybrida, but the genus Cineraria is now restricted to a group of South African species, with the Canary Island species being transferred to the genus Pericallis; some botanists also treat it in a broad view of the large and widespread genus Senecio. Some varieties are sold under the trade name Senetti.

Cultivation and uses
Florist's cinerarias can be raised freely from seeds. For spring flowering the seeds are sown in mid spring in well-drained pots or pans, in soil of three parts loam to two parts leaf mould, with one-sixth sand; cover the seed thinly with fine soil, and press the surface firm.

When the seedlings are large enough to handle, prick them out in pans or pots of similar soil, and when more advanced pot them singly in 10 cm pots, using soil a trifle less sandy. They should be grown in shallow frames facing the north. If so situated that the sun shines upon the plants in the middle of the day, they must be slightly shaded; give plenty of air, and never allow them to get dry. When well established with roots, shift them into 15 cm pots, which should be liberally supplied with manure water as they get filled with roots.

In winter remove to a pit or house, where a little heat can be supplied whenever there is a risk of their getting frozen. They should stand on a moist bottom, but must not be subjected to cold draughts. When the flowering stems appear, give manure water at every alternate watering. Seeds sown in early spring, and grown on in this way, will be in flower by Christmas if kept in a temperature of from 5° to 7 °C at night, with a little more warmth in the day. Those sown in April and May will follow them during the early spring months, the latter set of plants being subjected to a temperature of 4° to 5 °C during the night. If grown much warmer than this, the chrysanthemum leaf miner may damage the leaves, tunnelling its way between the upper and lower surfaces and making whitish irregular markings all over. Such affected leaves must be picked off and burned. Aphids are also a major pest.

title: Pericallis × hybrida