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User talk:Quadell/Archive 7

Thanks!
I'd given up twice before on that map because the original was illegible, it's nice to know it was worth the trouble! iMeowbot~Mw 03:23, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image China, Mao (2).jpg
This photo is taken in 1949, so it has been in the public domain by Chinese Copyright, as same as in Germany, a non-artistic photograph is in the public domain if it was first published more than 50 years ago in China and Taiwan. So this image is OK to use in wikipedia. --Mosesofmason 06:27, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * You can find PRC copyright law here(in chinese), see the verse 3, clause 21, it says:

第二十一条　公民的作品，其发表权、本法第十条第一款第（五）项至第 （十七）项规定的权利的保护期为作者终生及其死亡后五十年，截止于作 者死亡后第五十年的十二月三十一日；如果是合作作品，截止于最后死亡 的作者死亡后第五十年的十二月三十一日。 法人或者其他组织的作品、著作权（署名权除外）由法人或者其他组织享 有的职务作品，其发表权、本法第十条第一款第（五）项至第（十七）项 规定的权利的保护期为五十年，截止于作品首次发表后第五十年的十二月 三十一日，但作品自创作完成后五十年内未发表的，本法不再保护。 电影作品和以类似摄制电影的方法创作的作品、摄影作品，其发表权、本 法第十条第一款第（五）项至第（十七）项规定的权利的保护期为五十年， 截止于作品首次发表后第五十年的十二月三十一日，但作品自创作完成后 五十年内未发表的，本法不再保护。

 * you can find similar prescriptions in ROC copyright law. By the way, zh:User talk:Shizhao is very professional on copyright issues, maybe you can ask him for more information. Due to he is on his vacation now, so try this some days later :) --Mosesofmason 15:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I notice that the current English Wikipedia notice about copyright of China is not accurate. Not all copyright expires after 50 years. If you read carefully the original legal verse says those materials whose copyright belong to an organization(eg government, news agency, etc) will have their copyrights expired on Dec 31 of the 50th year of publication; however if the copyright belongs to an individual, it expires 50 years after the death of the copyright holder; if the copyright belongs to a group of individuals, it expires 50 years after the death of the last copyright holder. And for those works that is not published within 50 years of creation, it will not copyrighted.--Formulax 08:40, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dining philosophers
I fixed the dining philosophers image. Thanks! --bdesham 13:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

fairuse by non-uploader?
Hi. Regarding Image:Empson.jpg, I am confused by your tagging of the image as Fair Use. AFAIK, there is no information on its source, and fair use was not claimed by the original uploader, as is described in Template:Fairuse. It is still unverified IMO. Thanks. --ChrisRuvolo 20:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Quadell, thanks for your reply. I appreciate your reasons for considering the image fair use and agree they are valid.  Would you consider adding a list of reasons to the image page in the future when adding a fair use tag?  It would clarify the status of the images, in my opinion.  Also, since the source of the image is still unknown and uncredited, I think use of the "unverified" tag or perhaps a new "unknownsource" tag is still appropriate, in addition to the fairuse tag.  Your thoughts?  Thanks. --ChrisRuvolo 20:41, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * FYI, I have created the Template:Unknownsource tag. --ChrisRuvolo 01:43, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

WP:IFD abbreviations
Just wondering what the tags "OR", "CV", and "OB" at WP:IFD mean. Thanks,  hydnjo talk 03:35, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for you response. I thought CV might be CopyVio but couldn't figure out ORphaned or OBsolete. hydnjo talk 20:38, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Geez, thanks for the kind words
I just found this gem on the D.520 image page...

''Looks like Maury Markowitz is bad news, so far as copyright is concerned. It seems he uploaded around 100 images, tagging none of them. Most of them are copyvios, although a few are (purely by coincidence) public domain. He's had a lot of messages on his talk page about these, but he hasn't yet dealt with them. He's also a sysop now. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 17:19, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)''

You know, this is so insulting I don't even know where to begin. You come right out and call me "bad news" in what is effectively a public forum, then go on to explain your reasons in what is a highly disingenuous string of "facts".

I didn't tag the images because the tags didn't exist when I uploaded them. You fail to note that many of the images in question were posted over two years ago - yes, that's before tagging. You seem to insinuate that I do all of this deliberately, and the only ones that are in the public domain are by accident. I fail to see how this could be a problem, but it certainly reads like you're complaining about this "pure coincience". Once again you bend reality by forgetting to note that everything I have posted recently ("recent" as in over a year) is clearly attributed. You go on to claim I'm not doing anything about it even after "a lot of messages on his talk page", but it seems your definition of "a lot" is "four", on my page of some 50-100 messages spread over 12 pages. Nor do you note that even at the time you were posting this missive, I was already into the process of tagging them and had been for over a week. Then, to top it all off, you leave a "warning" for all your fellow wikipedian; beware, he's a sysop now. Oh no! What nefarious activities will I get involved in next? Spelling mistakes?!?

Frankly I think you've gone too far. Asking me to tag or remove is one thing, calling me names before asking (check the edit times) is another entirely. I pretty much dropped everything to do the tagging after being asked, only getting back to articles recently. And then, today, I find this. Editing is an important task, and I don't begrudge your work, but I don't see any call for these sorts of comments as part of the process.

I think I deserve an apology.

Maury 15:08, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image:Hammer.jpg
Hi Quadell,

You don't happen to be an admin at the Commons, do you? I noticed your note at Image:Hammer.jpg. The image history you're referring to is that the "resized and compressed version" got uploaded at Commons:Image:Hammer.jpg as the initial, obsolete version. I think the right way to fix the problem would be to delete that initial version. (Lossy compression is evil anyway, and making it more lossy is even worse.)

dbenbenn | talk 05:51, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image:bakert.jpg
Re: Image:bakert.jpg - that was from back when i belived publicity stills were copyright-free - User:Jtdirl had told me they were. It looked more like a screenshot because id put it through Adobe Photoshop to try and improve the quality for online presentation. PMA 10:57, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Greatfully accepted
Maury 15:13, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dr. Who image
The site i got the photos from - http://drwhotht.phenominet.com/ - concentrates more on Doctor Who publicity stills than screenshots (and has separate sub-sections for them) and that's why i figured it was a publicity still - i ran it through Photoshop to fix the gamma levels etc (as you can see looking through some of the past history versions on Wiki). Also the ones i uploaded for William Hartnell and Patrick Troughton definately are colour publicity stills as their eras were made and broadcast in black and white. PMA 21:08, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Removal of goatse IFD vote
Quadell, I placed a comment on the IFD talk page regarding your removal of the goatse image vote. I would appreciate your response there. Thanks, Duk 19:04, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jack and Jill favors
If we may, can we call on your good graces again to fix the duplication of our article Hôtel Ritz Paris. Thanks. JillandJack 22:33, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Another possible favour. We created: Catergory:French Dancers but the "d" should not be capitalized? Would you know how to fix this, too? Thanks again. JillandJack

Iraqi insurgency page move
Please vote to support the move from Iraqi resistance → Iraqi insurgency at Wikipedia:Requested_moves. Thanks! ObsidianOrder 13:10, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Czech copyright
Photograph goes to public domain in Czech Republic You can check translation of the law.
 * 70 years after author's death or
 * 70 years after the first publishing, if the author is anonymous or pseudonymous (and unknown) or
 * 70 years after creation, if author is anonymous or pseudonymous (and unknown) and photograph was not published in the period 70 years after the creation.

Buddhabrot
Uploaded. :-) Evercat 21:29, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Greek Gyros Image
Thanks for the comment. I licenced the image of Gyros article under GFDL. What the image describes can be met even to the last village of Greece and it wouldn't be reasonable for an image like that to have a copyright. So the only think I can do is to copyleft it.

Thorough? More like lazy!
Firing off a few emails is sooo much less work than drawing! In a couple cases, ticked-off contributors reverted back to their own images and finally tagged, that's why I'm on this "be really sure it's unknown" kick 8) iMeowbot~Mw

re: Alfred Wegener
Thanks. Your images helped the article a lot. I've had this on my list of things to do for a while (the fuzzy list in my head:) and the NPOV note on the talk page prompted an off the top of the head rewrite last night. Hope I didn't make any serious errors -- need to do a bit more -- someday. -Vsmith 13:40, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So you did not leave!
After seeing that note on Sep 11 discussion about your leaving because you felt that terrorist should have been included in the title, I got concerned. I'm glad you came back (believe it or not)

Arno 04:50, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I read your reply. While it is unfortunate that you and I disagree on whether terrorist should be in the title of THAT article, I acknowledge my error in assessing that conversation of Nov 11, 2004 (I do read too quickly at times), well, have a nice day. Arno 09:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Anthere's images
It's strange that you tagged Image:Echinops.jpg as GFDL but Image:Cosmos tubulaire.jpg got deleted, though both of these were marked by Anthere as "Courtesy of Ginette". Any idea who/what is Ginette? I presume all these images: marked as "Courtesy of Ginette" would have identical copyright status. -- Paddu 12:35, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Image:Rudbeckia 2002.jpg
 * Image:RhodoP.jpg
 * Image:Echinops.jpg
 * Image:Cosmos tubulaire.jpg
 * Image:Muscaris-2.JPG

Radical lawyers
Could we ask another favour? We think that the "Category:Radical lawyers" is POV and improper labelling for Wikipedia. Would you do the technical thing to post it to the vote for deletion in our user name? Thank you. JillandJack 16:19, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image Tags
Hi, just wanted to ask you a question concerning image tags, since it seems you're a sort of ringleader with this project. When an image has a note that says the author posted it, what tag do we affix? Do we use a GFDL, or a public domain tag, or even something else? Thanks, and looking forward to helping you with the project, Bratsche 14:30, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There are several templates you can use. You insert them into the description of the image by using. There is a complete list at Template_messages/Image_namespace. Some examples are   which indicates that user username chooses to make the image public domain;    means it is copyrighted but permits free use;     means it was released under the GNU Free Distribution License. I generally release my images public domain as I don't care, they are usually commonplace and I don't expect anyone to seriously make any money off of them.
 * Paul Robinson Rfc1394 05:19, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Commons:Image:NutritionFacts broccoli cooked.png
Hi Quadell,

Did you notice that Commons:Image:NutritionFacts broccoli cooked.png got nominated for deletion there? Just letting you know. dbenbenn | talk 05:44, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Hopefully it won't be needed, but table formatting is worked out at User:IMeowbot/nutrition if the image licensing causes future problems. Making into to template might be more of a problem, but again, hopefully we won't need to do it at all! --iMeowbot~Mw 17:09, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Krakatoa
Hi, I see you've re-added the line about the rate of growth of Anak Krakatau. I'd removed that when I reworded the last bit of that paragraph because I couldn't find any source for it, and it seemed a little unclear anyway - presumably that's an average rate, but does it refer to overall since the island first appeared, or a particular eruptive episode, or what? Can you clarify that at all? Thanks - Worldtraveller 15:34, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Black Rhino
I must have believed the image was usable at the time, but I can't trace it, even by doing a Google search - I thought it was on a site with a lot of eclipse pics jimfbleak 20:19, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Goober
Hi Quadell. Recently you added to Kongo language the little factoid that the English word 'goober' comes from a Kikongo word. I'm wondering what the Kikongo word is. Care to add your source as well? Regards,  — mark ✎ 15:55, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing!  — mark ✎ 16:52, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Monday Garden pics
Hi Quadell - thanks; that's good news. Shall I change 'Copyright free use' tags to 'GFDL' on any I run across, or would you rather I checked with you first? One small point to watch for on her pics, she doesn't use botanical terminology too carefully, I've spotted a few mis-applications of terms (e.g. 'flowers' on a spruce pic; conifers are not flowering plants and don't have flowers, they're cones; conversely 'cones' on a birch; birches are flowering plants and don't have cones, they're catkins) - MPF 15:00, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Errant image tagger?
Hi. I helped a lot on the first round of the image tagging project. Unfortunately I've been toooo busy to help lately. But there's possibly an issue with one of the taggers currently working on the project I wanted to bring to your attention, since you're so involved with it.

The description page for an image I posted some time ago showed up in my watchlist today, so I checked it out. Turns out that a previous vandal had removed my tag along with the source info. That change went unnoticed by me, so it landed in the latest list of untagged images. Today's change was Woohookitty putting a tag on it. Of course, as creator of the image I know for a fact that it is not public domain, and don't see how Woohookitty could have labeled it as such –, perhaps, but not.

Woohookitty is listed on the untagged images project page. I looked at this user's contributions, and [s]he is busy tagging away. But it looks to me like that user is being way too free with. I know for a fact that [s]he tagged my image without cause (didn't even query my user talk page), and others look suspicious, too. I also see [s]he has tagged images Unknown that should have (Image:Laferteairshow001.jpg),   that should have  (Image:Villegaignon-crest.gif), and other problems.

I left a note on the user's talk page about my map image in particular. I don't know if you or someone else would want to review this user's tagging contributions and try to educate the user on how to do a better job. I'd attempt this myself, but, as I said, I'm too busy to contemplate getting into a back-and-forth with someone or going through and retagging all the images [s]he has touched.

Thanks for all your great work on this important project and the related image projects! -- Kbh3rd 05:15, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image Tags for Mannlicher images by wterrell
Hello. I received your note in my talk page that some images that I posted need to have the copyright tags updated for them. I do not know how to attach the copyright tags to images so I will ask that you will do this for me.

I have listed the images below. They are images of pistols that belong to me and I am the photographer of these pistols. My name is Wesley Terrell. The images were created in 2003. I do not know what type of copyright needs to be attached to these images, but I suppose that "copyright" would be appropriate or "permission".

Mannlicher images that currently don't have image copyright tags.

 * Image:1894 barrel.sized.jpg
 * Image:1894 mannlicher1.sized.jpg
 * Image:1894 mannlicher3.sized.jpg
 * Image:1894 mannlicher4.sized.jpg
 * Image:1894 mannlicher5.sized.jpg
 * Image:1894 mannlicher6.sized.jpg
 * Image:1901AustrianMannlicher1a.jpg
 * Image:1901AustrianMannlicher2.jpg
 * Image:1901AustrianMannlicher3.jpg
 * Image:1901AustrianMannlicher4.jpg
 * Image:1901MannlicherBreech.jpg
 * Image:1901MannlicherNumbers.jpg
 * Image:1901MannlicherStamps.jpg

images you wondered about by nesnad
You asked about two images User:Nesnad gifted the English version of wikipedia with. The images you asked about were:

 * Image:250px-Hachiko odate.jpg
 * Image:250px-Odate station.jpg

Although I don't have time right now to search down all the locations on Japanese wikipedia, I can assure you that they came from the Japanese wikipedia under different sections that I found while surfing there. I thought they would benefit the English page I added them to. For example, this is one of the pictures, under a different heading, but dealing with the information in the English page. Please do not worry. Thanks for your concern. http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BF%A0%E7%8A%AC%E3%83%8F%E3%83%81%E5%85%AC

Wikipedia's new Look!?!?!
Hi, Quadell.

What is up with the Wikipedia's new look? I liked the old look  WAY  Better!

J. Michael Reiter, jmr User:Michael_Reiter:Talk

Gears and Such
Hey, I think the gears image I uploaded does have a transparent background. At least it looks transparent to me! Also, please excuse my semi-absence from wikipedia. The most recent slowness has really prevented me from doing anything worth while. --MaxPower 15:16, 2005 Feb 28 (UTC)

Ruger 10/22 image
I took that picture of my own rifles, specifically for the Wiki entry. I suppose technically that makes it fall under the GNU Free Documentation License. Feel free to tag it with the most permissive license available. scot 17:14, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image:Cosmos_tubulaire.jpg
You deleted Image:Cosmos_tubulaire.jpg on 10 Feb 2005:
 * (deletion log): 21:59, 10 Feb 2005 Quadell deleted Image:Cosmos tubulaire.jpg (Unverified orphan, listed on IfD since Feb 2)
 * (edit at WP:IfD): http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion&diff=10142741&oldid=10140650

However, it was not an orphan; both User:Anthere/PictFlower and User:Koyaanis Qatsi/flowers for spirit referred to it. Also, nobody seems to have contacted User:Anthere before deleting the image (which she uploaded). User talk:Anthere clearly states that all her images are GFDL unless stated otherwise (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Anthere&diff=8503579&oldid=8503559). Unsurprisingly, Anthere is upset about the image being deleted (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29&diff=prev&oldid=10644991 and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Untagged_images&diff=next&oldid=10648299). Fortunately, I was able to find a copy of the image on a mirror site, and I have uploaded it again. —AlanBarrett 19:39, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I have replied on Anthere's talk page. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 20:31, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

 * I notice that Anthere's attention was brought to the lack of tags on the images deleted, on the 26th January, so it is not as if she had no indication whatsoever that all was not well. It is a shame she did not act in that advice, and a shame, too, that she did not mention this when commenting on the deletion. Meanwhile this'll slow down the unverified orphans which you list on a daily basis on IFD. Still. There you go. --Tagishsimon (talk)

Elf's alt.sex FAQ materials are now under GFDL
You wrote: "I've looked around talk:penis, but I can't find how the GFDL issue was resolved. Is the image released under the GFDL?"

From | Talk:Penis (archive 1)
 * I found Elf's current address and emailed him. Here's the reply:
 * The original asfaq was placed under a Creative Commons license, but it has been a long time since I did any work on any of the FAQ materials. ... I think at this point I would be comfortable putting the work under the GFDL, yes.
 * So the copyright issue is now solved. Hooray! --Card 19 Nov 2003

Image:Hartley osc.jpg
Hi Omegatron. You volunteered to handle electrical schematics on Wikipedia:Image recreation requests. I've got one for you: Image:Hartley osc.jpg. Also, Image:Heat Coil.JPG is somewhat related, although I'm not sure if it's your cup of tea or not. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 14:54, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * I'll do them. - Omegatron 18:41, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * One done. First version lost when I tried to save it and stupid memory stick screwed my computer.  It didn't lock up; it didn't crash; it didn't burn.  The computer just shut off when I plugged it in.  That is NOT cool...  Don't use software from simpletech.  Other one I can't do with klunky, so it will wait 'til later.- Omegatron 19:31, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Go images
Just wanted give you a friendly reminder about those Go images. . . if you're still willing. Your previous ones look great! – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 01:12, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * If you look at rules of Go you'll see I'm almost done. dbenbenn | talk 02:15, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Syd Barrett
The article history suggests you moved the quotes to Wikiquote. However Wikiquote seems to show that you (or someone) only ever pasted one of the many that appeared in the Wikipedia article. Would you like to reinstate them in one place or the other? I feel they are valuable AND I spent a lot of time digging around for some of them. It's very annoying to see that material mislaid. --bodnotbod 04:43, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

Just saying "hello"...
Greetings! I'm about to apply for membership in my local Meeting, and I just wanted to encourage you in your seeking...and to thank you for all of your great work around here. See also this list at Meta.

Peace, BCorr | Брайен 17:36, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On deleting orphans
A thing that troubles me is the deletion of orphan images. I've never found satisfactory policy on it; and now we have the commons into which we could, if we were kind, dump verified orphans. We know we have to alert the uploader to the likely deletion of anything ... so is the leading us towards a pratice of: I'd hate to think we were unnecessarily throwing anything away. I think I'm just thinking out loud on this one. --Tagishsimon (talk)
 * If unverified orphan, alert user, if no response, move to delete
 * If verified orphan, move to Commons?

Image:1901.jpg
Hi Quadell — (stepping out of the discussion on Image Sleuthing as it's just about the image, not policy) you listed the image in the end at Possibly unfree images. As far as I had understood, this was for listing images who's copyright status was not assertained. On that page, it says to list things at WP:CP if its source is known and it cannot be used by Wikipedia under any license or under the fair use doctrine. I would have thought that that had been confirmed through out sleuthing. I'm confused as to why the image shouldn't just go to WP:CP — we know the source, we've seen the copyright statement on the website, and we can hardly claim fair use. Anyway, the Image Sleuthing project is a great idea and I'm already having fun with it. — Asbestos | Talk  23:41, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Image:Holden ma map.png
Yes, I made that (and some other ones: Princeton, Northborough, etc:  look at my contribs list) using an old PDF map of Masscahusetts put out by the MA Secretary of State's office, which makes the original PD and my coloring didn't change anything. It's not a very good map, because my PDF was a few years old and I found out later that the online map had been updated to have much more accurate boundaries, but I never redid it. It would be nice if someone could automate the process, since it would be great to have boundary maps for all the towns in the state. -Rjyanco 00:12, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hey
I just wanted to drop you a note to say hi. I saw you're the other person to debate Jag123's recent project for metatags. I'm curious from your user page, how does one go from Buddhism to being a Quaker? Thanks. --Spinboy 03:25, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Wow, okay, that's really neat. I was raised Christian too, but way more pacifist, and since I'm gay, I didn't share their beliefs. I became pagan because I'm also very spiritual, and believe in a higher being, but from that, have more general concepts that never really fit anywhere. I've had people tell me I should be buddhist, but I didn't like how some of them say there's no higher being, because that didn't fit with my beliefs. --Spinboy 17:24, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

images
Hi. I dont know what symbol to put in the images. It is not a PD, they are copyrighted and can be used along with credits to IPPAR. --- Pedro 20:13, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Image:Los Angeles skyline daytime 2.jpg
Hi Quadell. I've had an enquiry about the above image (via the Foundation mail). I see you tagged it as PD - did you find the source at all? Thanks for any help -- sannse (talk) 20:22, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks Quadell, it does look someewhat unclear, I've replied in my usual vague fashion ;) -- sannse (talk) 17:16, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Image Sleuthing
FYI, I've added a link to WP:IS from Template:Active Wiki Fixup Projects. If you want to keep IS more select, then, err, reverting is your friend. --Tagishsimon (talk)
 * Hello - I was just wondering if you had a quick way to create signatures like the one you have for Image Sleuthing with superscripts like: Nrbelex (talk) (Fun) 17:00, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks - that's exactly what I meant. Nrbelex 00:13, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Deleted image Usagi.jpg
Hello,

I noticed that you deleted the image Usagi.jpg, and the link from the article Furry. I've looked through the deletion logs, and I can see that you spend a lot of time working on image deletions; I appreciate that. However, it was rather disruptive to have the image deleted without an explanation; I originally thought "deleted image" in the edit summary meant "I have deleted this image", rather than "I'm removing a link to an image which was deleted". You might want to consider a default summary like "Removing image which was deleted, see WP:PUI" or something, though I know it's longer.

Several people on Talk:Furry attempted to discuss the image's removal. You may want to leave a note for them.

The big thing, though, is that according to the deletion log, I see that the image was listed on WP:PUI, and according to WP:PUI, the links on the article were supposed to be updated, to warn us that the image needed information about its source. This was not done. We didn't know anything was happening until the image disappeared. Since this deletion was "out-of-process", would you be willing to restore it without going through the official undeletion requests (Undeletion)?

Thanks; I know this was just a mix-up.

-- Creidieki 05:55, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * The people on Talk:Furry were indeed "pretty upset", and I think that that was quite reasonable. An image that our article uses was deleted, in violation of policy, with no warning to us, and no explanation.  Now we are being told that the image cannot be restored.  I think it is hardly fair to tell us that notice was posted on a page somewhere in the Wikipedia hierarchy; I certainly had not known to look there.  I find the lack of an apology from either you or User:Infrogmation (who moved the page into the 15-30 days column without changing the links on the Furry article) to be disturbing.
 * I'm also very worried when you say that there is no way to undelete images. This is a clear case of a deletion happening against policy.  I know that Wikipedia makes various Database Dumps of its images; has the image been deleted from these?  -- Creidieki 19:05, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry if my last post was somewhat hostile. To be honest, the policy on WP:PUI seems somewhat vague on whose responsibility it is to make certain that images are removed from articles 15 days before deletion.  I would imagine that the article should initially be changed when the article is moved from "less than 15 days" to "15 to 30 days"; that was done by User:Infrogmation in this case, which is why I contacted him as well.  I would also think that, when deleting the image, the administrator should check to make sure that the image is not still being used by any articles.
 * I acknowledge that neither of those requirements are written, and I think that neither you nor Infrogmation explicitly violated policy. But the deletion of the image still happened in a way contrary to policy. WP:PUI indicates that the people watching an article should have fifteen days of warning before images used by the article are deleted.  I, and others, had the Furry article on our watchlists, but the first we knew of this licensing dispute was that the image had been deleted.  Since this image deletion affects the Furry article strongly, and apparently irrevocably, notice should have been posted on the article.
 * If a warning had been posted on the article, I would have attempted to find licensing information for the image. I have no idea whether I would have succeeded, because I do not have a copy of the image now.
 * Recent posts on the wikitech mailing list indicate that deleted images can often be found on Wikipedia mirrors, and that developers can restore images from backup if all else fails. I'm probably going to look on the mirrors, to try to get a copy of the image, and see whether I can find licensing information.  Would you be able to provide me with the image description text, and the username of the uploader?  (Undeletion indicates that that's possible).
 * Thanks, and sorry for all of the bother, -- Creidieki 00:20, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

image copyright status
-- wterrell

Concerning the images that you asked about: they are from a book Mannlicher Rifles and Pistols, by Walter H.B. Smith, The Military Service Publishing Company, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 1947. All of these pics in the book are from manufacturer instruction manuals and literature dating from 1896-1901. The text of my entry concerning these two pistols list the source as the book by Smith.

Here is a list of the images:
 * Image:M1894 page 189.jpg
 * Image:M1894 page 188.jpg
 * Image:M1894 page 186.jpg
 * Image:Page 214.jpg
 * Image:Page 216.jpg
 * Image:Page 218.jpg

The images is from a Beretta pistol owners manual and are free for distribution by the manufacturer.
 * Image:Blow up.jpg
 * Image:Barrel asmby.jpg
 * Image:Barrel assy.jpg
 * Image:Receiver blowup.jpg
 * Image:Receiver Assy.jpg

The image is an image of a pistol and tactical light owned by me.
 * Image:With tactical.jpg

Versos mojado
Why did you delete [[Media:VersosdelMojado.ogg]] from samples of music from the United States? Tuf-Kat 04:34, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Re: Image sleuthing
Thanks! This image sleuthing is a lot of fun. Foobaz · ✐ 05:23, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Quadell/Archive 7


text:
Dancing Cat Records

Dancing Cat Records is a record label founded in 1983 by pianist George Winston to publish both his music and music in the Hawaiian slack-key guitar style. Its mission later expanded to cover other Hawaiian musicians. Dancing Cat's albums were originally distributed by Windham Hill Records. Since Windham Hill's buyout by Sony Music Entertainment in 2008, the label receives distribution from RCA Victor, but is not owned by Windham Hill or Sony Music.

Artists

 * Keola Beamer
 * Bob Brozman
 * Sonny Chillingworth
 * Ledward Kaapana
 * Dennis Kamakahi
 * Ray Kane
 * Silvia Kohan
 * Leonard Kwan
 * Michael Lorimer
 * Professor Longhair
 * Cyril Pahinui
 * Bola Sete
 * Shad Weathersby
 * George Winston

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Dancing Cat Records


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Light in the loafers

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 15:36, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Light in the loafers
Dicdef of slang phrase. Probably should be transwikied. I don't see any likelihood for expansion beyond definition. HyperZonktalk 22:56, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete, inappropriate, not encyclopedic. -- Riffsyphon1024 22:59, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. Zzyzx11 00:07, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, slang dictionary definition, un-encyclopaedic. Megan1967 02:19, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)


text:
HMS Thunderer (1872)

HMS Thunderer was one of two Devastation-class ironclad turret ships built for the Royal Navy in the 1870s. She suffered two serious accidents before the decade was out and gained a reputation as an unlucky ship for several years afterward. The ship was assigned to the Mediterranean Fleet in 1878 and was reduced to reserve in 1881 before being recommissioned in 1885. Thunderer returned home in 1887 and was again placed in reserve. She rejoined the Mediterranean Fleet in 1891, but was forced to return to the UK by boiler problems the following year. The ship became a coast guard ship in Wales in 1895 and was again placed in reserve in 1900. Thunderer was taken out of service in 1907 and sold for scrap in 1909.

Background and description
The Devastation class was designed as an enlarged, ocean-going, version of the earlier Cerberus-class breastwork monitor. The ships had a length between perpendiculars of 285 ft and were 307 ft long overall. They had a beam of 62 ft, and a draught of 26 ft. The Devastation-class ships displaced 9330 LT. Their crew consisted of 358 officers and ratings. They proved to be steady gun platforms and good seaboats, albeit quite wet forward. Their low forecastle caused them problems with head seas and limited their speed in such conditions.

Thunderer had two Humphry & Tennant two-cylinder horizontal direct-acting steam engines using steam provided by eight rectangular boilers; each engine driving a single propeller. The engines were designed to produce a total of 5600 ihp for a speed of 12.5 kn, but Thunderer reached a maximum speed of 13.4 kn from 6270 ihp during her sea trials. The ship carried a maximum of 1800 LT of coal, enough to steam 4700 nmi at 10 knots.

The Devastation class was armed with four RML 12 in rifled muzzle-loading guns, one pair in each of the gun turrets positioned fore and aft of the superstructure. Shortly after completion, Thunderer's forward turret's weapons were replaced by more powerful RML 12.5 in guns.

While both gun turrets were rotated by steam power, the new forward guns were loaded by hydraulic power, unlike the original guns which were hand worked. Thunderer was the first ship to have hydraulic loading gear. From 1874, the forward turret alone was converted to hydraulic power operation for training (turret traverse), elevation and ramming. This allowed the turret crew to be reduced from 48 to 28; the aft turret remaining hand-worked as a comparison. Power operation was considered successful, although it was later implicated in the 1879 explosion.

The Devastation-class ships had a complete wrought iron waterline armour belt that was 12 inches thick amidships and tapered to 9 in outside the armoured citadel towards the ends of the ship. The armour plates were tapered to a thickness of 10 - 8.5 in at their bottom edges respectively and they extended from the upper deck to 5 ft below the waterline. The armoured citadel protected the bases of the gun turrets, the funnel uptakes and the crew's quarters. The sides of the citadel were 12 inches thick around the bases of the turrets and 10 inches thick elsewhere. The turrets were protected by two 7 - 6 in plates, separated by a layer of teak with the turret face having the thicker armour. The magazine were protected by a 6-inch forward bulkhead and a 5 in one aft. The conning tower ranged in thickness from 9 to 6 inches in thickness. The ships had a complete 3 in upper deck that was reinforced by another 2 in thick inside the citadel.

Construction and career
Thunderer, the fifth ship of her name to serve in the Royal Navy, was laid down on 26 June 1869 at Pembroke Dockyard, Wales. Construction was subsequently halted for a time in 1871 to modify the ship to improve her stability and buoyancy by extending the breastwork to cover the full width of the hull which increased the ship's freeboard amidships and provided additional accommodation for the crew. The ship was launched on 25 March 1872 by Mrs. Mary Meyrick, wife of Thomas Meyrick, MP. Two years later she was transferred to Portsmouth Dockyard to finish fitting out.

On 14 July 1876, Thunderer suffered a disastrous boiler explosion which killed 45 people. One of her boilers burst as she proceeded from Portsmouth Harbour to Stokes Bay to carry out a full-power trial. The explosion killed 15 people instantly, including her commanding officer; around 70 others were injured, of whom 30 later died. This was the Royal Navy's most deadly boiler explosion through the whole century. A model representing the failed boiler was made and is now in the Science Museum, London. The explosion was caused because a pressure gauge was broken and the safety valve had corroded in place. When the steam stop valve to the engines was closed, pressure in the boiler rose and could not be released. The four box boilers were the last in service in the Navy and operated at what would even then would have been considered a relatively low pressure, for more modern boilers, of 30 psi. The boiler was repaired and the ship was completed on 26 May 1877 at a cost of £368,428.

Thunderer was commissioned in May 1877 for service with the Reserve Fleet Particular Service Squadron and was then assigned to the Channel Squadron. During this time, she was fitted with experimental 16 in torpedoes. She sailed for the Mediterranean in 1878 under the command of Captain Alfred Chatfield. Leaving Gibraltar for Malta in November 1878, Thunderer ran aground and was damaged. She was refloated and resumed her voyage. She was repaired at Malta.

The ship suffered another serious accident on 2 January 1879, when the left 12-inch 38 ton gun in the forward turret exploded during gunnery practice in the Sea of Marmora, killing 11 and injuring a further 35. The muzzle-loading gun had been double-loaded following a misfire. According to Admiral of the Fleet E.H Seymour,

"Both turret guns were being fired simultaneously, and evidently one did not go off. It may seem hard to believe such a thing could happen and not be noticed, but from my own experience I understand it. The men in the turret often stopped their ears, and perhaps their eyes, at the moment of firing, and then instantly worked the run-in levers, and did not notice how much the guns had recoiled. This no doubt occurred. Both guns were at once reloaded, and the rammer's indicator, working by machinery, set fast and failed to show how far the new charge had gone."

The accident contributed to the Royal Navy changing to breech-loading guns, which could be more conveniently worked from inside the turrets. The fragments of the destroyed gun were re-assembled and displayed to the public at the Woolwich Arsenal. The committee of inquiry decided that the gun had been double-loaded, but this view was widely questioned, including by Sir William Palliser, designer of the Palliser shell used by these guns. Palliser's view instead was that the shot had been obstructed by a portion of the millboard disc rammed above the shell. Hydraulic power-ramming was thought to be implicated in the double loading as the telescopic hydraulic rammer had not made the double loading obvious, as a manual ramrod would have done. One piece of evidence supporting the double loading theory was the presence of an additional stud torn from a Palliser shell, found amongst the wreckage within the turret. She was repaired at Malta. Thunderer was then regarded as an unlucky ship and was placed in reserve at Malta in 1881 and had her machinery overhauled. Her armament was augmented with a pair of 14 in torpedo launchers and a half-dozen 1-inch (25 mm) Nordenfelt guns on the hurricane deck. She was recommissioned in 1885 and remained with the Mediterranean Fleet until she was paid off at Chatham Dockyard. The future King George V served aboard Thunderer in 1885–86.

The ship was assigned to the Portsmouth Reserve in January 1888 before beginning a major modernisation the following year. Her guns were replaced by four breech-loading 10-inch guns. To improve her defence against torpedo boats, her Nordenfelt guns were replaced by six quick-firing (QF) 6-pounder 57 mm and eight QF 3-pounder 47 mm Hotchkiss guns. Thunderer's machinery was replaced by inverted triple-expansion steam engines and cylindrical boilers. Their increased output of 7000 ihp increased her speed to 14.2 kn and their more economical consumption of coal allowed the coal storage to be reduced to 1200 LT.

The ship rejoined the Mediterranean Fleet in March 1891, but was forced to return home in September 1892 with persistent boiler problems and she was reduced to the Chatham reserve. Thunderer became the guard ship at Pembroke Dock in May 1895 and remained there until she returned to the Chatham reserve in December 1900. The ship was refitted there as an emergency ship in 1902, but was taken out of service five years later. Thunderer was sold for scrap for £19,500 on 13 September 1909.

The Devastation class became more popular among the civilian population and in the Royal Navy as the ships got older. Rear-Admiral John Wilson, a former captain of the ship, stated in a meeting of the Royal United Services Institute discussing the most acceptable types of battleship in 1884, "'I also agree with my friend Captain Colomb that we have no type of ship to my fancy equal to the HMS Dreadnought (1875) or the good old Thunderer. Give me the Thunderer, the hull of the Thunderer; she had bad engines, she was not arranged as I would like inside, she was badly gunned as we all know, and she had not enough light gun or sufficient armaments; but she carried 1750 LT of coal, could steam at 10 knots from here to the Cape, and could fight any ship of her class on the salt water.'"

title: HMS Thunderer (1872)


text:
Bergerac, Dordogne

Bergerac (Brageirac ) is a subprefecture of the Dordogne department, in the region of Nouvelle-Aquitaine, Southwestern France. In 2018, the commune had a population of 26,823, which made it the department's second-most populated after the prefecture Périgueux. Located on the banks of the river Dordogne, Bergerac was designated a Town of Art and History by the Ministry of Culture in 2013.

History
In 1565, Charles IX of France visited Bergerac during his grand tour.

On 17 September 1577, amidst the French Wars of Religion, the Treaty of Bergerac, also known as the Peace of Bergerac (French: Paix de Bergerac), was signed between Henri III of France and Protestants to put a temporary end to the conflict. The treaty was negotiated by important figures on each side of the conflict, namely Nicolas de Neufville, seigneur de Villeroy and Armand de Gontaut, baron de Biron on the King's side and François de la Noue and François, Duke of Montpensier on the Protestant side.

Bergerac, which was a site where members of the French Resistance in Dordogne were incarcerated and interrogated during World War II, was freed from German occupation on 21 August 1944.

Climate
With climate change, Bergerac's climate has varied. A study carried out in 2014 by the Directorate General for Energy and Climate predicts that the average temperature should increase and the average rainfall decrease.

Economy
The region is primarily known for wine and tobacco. It has twelve recognised wine AOCs (appellations d'origine contrôlée):

 * Bergerac
 * Bergerac Rosé
 * Bergerac Sec (dry)
 * Côtes-de-Bergerac
 * Côtes de Bergerac Blanc
 * Côtes de Montravel
 * Montravel (red and white)
 * Haut-Montravel
 * Saussignac
 * Monbazillac
 * Pécharmant
 * Rosette

Immigration
Bergerac is home to a population of British and Donegal people who frequently identify as 'expats' rather than immigrants. This trend is not unique to Bergerac and is evident throughout the Dordogne. In part, this is driven by house prices which are very affordable when compared with either the French or British national averages. The increasing British presence has led to some integration initiatives such as the non-profit Université du Temps Libre which offers French language classes and a programme of cultural activities.

Tourism
The town has a growing tourism industry. The region's association with wines is also a key motivating factor for much tourism with wine tours, chateau visits and a wine house by the river which features an exhibition on the history of wine growing. Nearby sites for tourists include the Arboretum de Podestat, Château de Monbazillac, the town museum, statue museum, and tobacco museum. The church of Notre Dame is located in the town centre. The Dordogne River is also a significant tourist attraction for river boat tours and kayak rental.

Cyrano de Bergerac
The town contains two statues of Cyrano de Bergerac, subject of a famous eponymous play by Edmond Rostand. An old stone statue stands on Place de la Myrpe, facing Place du Docteur Cayla. A newer statue, painted in colour and standing on a stainless steel pedestal, has been erected on Place Pélissière.

Transport
Bergerac is served by Bergerac-Roumanière Airport (code EGC), which has internal flights, as well as routes to UK airports including Southampton, Bristol, Manchester, East Midlands, London Luton, Edinburgh, Exeter, Liverpool, Birmingham, Leeds Bradford and London Stansted Airport. Transavia also flies to Bergerac from Amsterdam and Rotterdam.

Bergerac has an SNCF station with regular services to Bordeaux and Sarlat-la-Canéda. A weekday bus service operates between Bergerac and Périgueux, mainly serving school commuters.

Education
Bergerac is located within the Bordeaux Académie, which covers the entire former Aquitaine region. The main high school is Lycée Maine de Biran. Other high schools in the town include the private school Institution Sainte-Marthe Saint-Front, Lycée Jean Capelle and Lycée Professionnel de l'Alba.

International relations
Bergerac, Dordogne is twinned with:

 * 🇨🇦 Repentigny, Canada, since 1997
 * 🇮🇹 Faenza, Italy, since 1998
 * 🇲🇦 Kenitra, Morocco, since 2016
 * 🇵🇱 Ostrów Wielkopolski, Poland, since 2017
 * 🇩🇪 Hohen Neuendorf, Germany, since 2018

title: Bergerac, Dordogne


text: Template:Fashion-stub

title: Template:Fashion-stub


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Kaifeng Jews

Kaifeng Jews (יהדות קאיפנג) are a small community of descendants of Chinese Jews in Kaifeng, in the Henan province of China. In the early centuries of their settlement, they may have numbered around 2,500 people. Despite their isolation from the rest of the Jewish diaspora, their ancestors managed to practice Jewish traditions and customs for several centuries.

The distinctive customary life of the Kaifeng community slowly eroded, as assimilation and intermarriage with Han Chinese and Hui neighbors advanced, until, by the 19th century, its Jewishness largely became extinct, apart from its retention of memories of its clan's Jewish past.

The place of origin of these Jews and the date when they established their settlement in Kaifeng are sources of intense debate among experts. While the descendants of the Kaifeng Jews are assimilated into mainstream Chinese culture, some of them are trying to revive the beliefs and customs of their ancestors. In the 21st century, efforts have been made to revive Kaifeng's Jewish heritage and encourage the descendants of its original population to convert back to Judaism. Several have undertaken to qualify for aliyah and relocate to Israel.

Background
The origin of the Kaifeng Jews and the date of their arrival is one of the most intensely debated topics in the field of Chinese-Jewish relations. Though some scholars date their arrival to the Tang Dynasty (618–907), or even earlier, Steven Sharot, reflecting the majority view, considers that the most probable date for the formation of a Jewish community in Kaifeng was sometime during the Song dynasty (960–1279). That prior to the Song, Jewish merchants were active in China appears probable from the fact that the Eastern Islamic Persian geographer Ibn Khordadbeh in his Book of Roads and Kingdoms (Kitāb al-Masālik wa-l-Mamālik) ca. 870 describes the Jewish Radhanite merchants as operating over a wide arc from Western Europe to China. It has been conjectured that this group constituted the first of two waves of Jewish settlement in China, the second being associated with the Mongol conquest and the establishment of the Yuan dynasty.

According to a scholarly consensus, the Jewish community of Kaifeng primarily consisted of people of Persian Jewish origin. Uncertainty persists as to whether they came overland through Chang'an, via either of the two Silk Roads, or whether they travelled inland after they reached coastal cities like Canton/Khānfū or Quanzhou/Zaitun by sea. Ibn Khordadbeh's Rhadanites used both routes. Some evidence has been interpreted to suggest that their ancestors may have mostly hailed from the Bukharan Jewish branch of Persian Jews who had settled in Central Asia. In all likelihood, all of the founders of the community were male Jewish merchants: the arduous, dangerous nature of the route, and the length of time which they needed to spend in order to travel on it, would have probably forced them to rule out bringing their wives, and after they settled in Kaifeng, they married Chinese women.

With regard to this first wave, among the vast trove of documents which Aurel Stein discovered in Dunhuang in Gansu, northwestern China, was a bill of sale for sheep which dated back to 718 CE, written in Judeo-Persian with Hebrew characters, they wrote their documents on paper, something which was unavailable in the West, together with a fragment of a Seliḥoth which was probably composed in the eighth or ninth century. A century later, the Arab geographer Abū Zayd Ḥasan al-Sīrāfī mentioned (910) a massacre which occurred in Canton in 878/9 in which not only Muslims and Christians but Jews were also killed, attesting to the latter group's presence in China. Trade with China was predominantly maritime, and dominated by Arabs, with many Jews also engaged in this network. By the 11th century, more than a million Arabs lived in port enclaves, where they were allowed self-administration. At least 7 synagogue communities are attested for this period in all major Chinese port cities, such as Yangzhou, Ningbo and Hangzhou. Goods from these coastal centres were transported inland via the Grand Canal to the Yellow River and then by barge to Kaifeng. The Jewish community that was eventually established in Kaifeng survived the collapse of these sister communities on the eastern seaboard, all of which disappeared in the 15-16th centuries when the Ming dynasty's ability to protect its coast was crippled by constant raiding from Japanese pirates.

The Song/Yuan period hypotheses
The point of departure for determining precisely when a community (kehillah) was established relies on two forms of evidence: the information surviving in inscriptions from four stelae recovered from Kaifeng, and references in Chinese dynastic sources. The dates on the stelae range from 1489 through 1512 and 1663 to 1679. Chinese documents on Jews are rare compared to the voluminous records of other peoples. The first official documents referring to Jews as a distinct group date to the Yuan dynasty.

Two Chinese scholars have argued that the Jews went to China in 998, because the Song History records that in the year 998, a monk (僧) named Ni-wei-ni and others had spent seven years traveling from India to China in order to pay homage to the Song Emperor Zhenzong. They identified this Ni-wei-ni as a Jewish rabbi. Others followed this up with a claim that the Song History provides a precise date for a large population of Jewish expatriates accompanying Ni-wei-ni from India who putatively arrived in Kaifeng on 20 February 998. These inferences contradict Buddhist records for Ni-wei-ni's visit. Both the sēng (僧) used to describe Ni-wei-ni in the Song dynastic history and the shāmén (沙門) in the Buddha Almanac of Zhi-pan mean "Buddhist monk", not rabbi. Furthermore, Ni-wei-ni did not bring Western cloth with him, but banyan seeds.

The earliest stele erected by the Kaifeng community bears the date 1489. This, it is affirmed, commemorates the construction in 1163 of a synagogue called Qingzhensi, the customary term for mosques in China. The inscription states that the Jews came to China from Tiānzhú (天竺), a Han-Song term for India. It adds that they brought Western cloth as tribute for an emperor, unnamed, who welcomed them with the words: "You have come to Our China; reverence and preserve the customs of your ancestors, and hand them down at Bianliang ," i.e., Kaifeng. The same stone inscription also associates the building's establishment with two names: An-du-la ( perhaps Abdullah) and a certain Lieh-wei, probably transcribing Levi, who is described as the Wu-ssu-ta of the community. This last term probably is a phonetic rendering of the Persian word ustad, ("master", religious leader), and "rabbi" in a Jewish context in that language.

At this time northern China was ruled by the Jurchen Jin dynasty ( (1115–1234)), while the area south of the Yangtze river was controlled by the Southern Song. Irene Eber, among others, assumes that this context suggests that the Kaifeng Jews must have settled in this Song capital, then known as Bianjing, no later than 1120, some years before the Song-Jin alliance broke down. It was in 1127 during the subsequent Jin–Song Wars that Kaifeng was captured as a result of the Jingkang incident. By 1163, when the synagogue is thought to have been established, Kaifeng had been occupied by the Jurchen for 37/38 years: and had been their capital since 1161. The 1489 stele speaks of its establishment coinciding with the first year of the Longxing era of the Song emperor Xiaozong, namely 1161, which sets the synagogue's establishment in the first year of the reign of the Jurchen Emperor Jin Shizong , within whose territory Kaifeng lay. If the city was Jurchen, it is asked, why does the stele associate its foundation with the Song?

Recently, Peng Yu has challenged the Song-entry consensus, favouring instead a variant of the "second wave" theory of Kaifeng Jewish origins, one version of which holds that Jews probably figured among the large number of peoples collectively known as the Semu who were captured during Mongol campaigns in the West and conveyed east to serve in the bureaucracy and assist the Mongols in administering China after its conquest. The two names associated in 1489 with the establishment of the synagogue in 1163, An-du-la and Lieh-wei (namely Abdullah and Levi), are in Yu's interpretation retrodated from later times. An-du-la, on the basis of the 1679 stele, he reads as the religious name of the An Cheng, said to be a Kaifeng Jewish physician, who "restored" the synagogue in 1421 (not 1163). According to the Diary of the Defence of Pien, the Kaifeng Jewish Li/Levi clan, from whose ranks some 14 manla or synagogue leaders were drawn, only arrived in Kaifeng after relocating from Beijing during the Hung Wu Period (1368–98) of the Ming Dynasty.

Yu's Yuan-entry theory claims that the Kaifeng Jews entered China together with the Muslim Hui-hui people during the Mongol Yuan Dynasty. The Jews themselves were defined as a Hui people, due to similarities between Jewish and Islamic traditions. They were called blue hat Hui as opposed to the "white cap Hui", who were Muslims. Chinese sources do not mention the existence of Chinese Jews until the Mongol Yuan Dynasty.

The explanation for these contradictions within the various stelae must lie, Yu thinks, in the impact of Ming imperial policies aiming to constrain peoples such as the Semu, who came en masse with the Mongols peoples, to assimilate to the culture of the revived Han hegemony. The dynasty was marked by a distinct anti-foreign sentiment expressed in coercive decrees that enforced assimilation, and therefore, Yu infers, the Kaifeng Jews, under the Ming, claimed in their monumental stone inscriptions that their roots in China were ancient, going back at least to the nativist Song if not indeed to the Han period. The stele sought to assert proof of a long accommodation by Jews to Chinese civilization in order to avoid discriminatory measures.

The early Kaifeng community
Kaifeng was a cosmopolitan industrial metropolis with 600,000 to a million inhabitants in Northern Song times, which formed an intense hub for overland trade via the Silk Road and the commercial riverine networks connecting it to the eastern seabord. Through it vast amounts of grain tribute also passed. Its strategic importance and wealth were recognized by successive dynastic powers over the period 905–959, such as the Liang (who gave it its present name), Jin, Later Han and Later Zhou who all made it their capital, as did the Northern Song when they unified the empire, until the city was conquered by the Jurchen in 1127. Under siege, it surrendered to the Mongols in 1233. It would have been attractive to Persian Jewish merchants. The founding colony's members may have specialized in the manufacturing, dyeing, or pattern printing of cotton fabrics. By the early 16th century, an inscription mentions not only craftsmen, farmers and traders among them, but also scholars, physicians and officials, political and administrative, as well as military men in important posts.

A Ming emperor conferred eight surnames upon the Jews. Other evidence points to 70-73 surnames. The late 1672 inscription states that at the synagogue's inception (1163) there were 73 clans and 500 families  in the Kaifeng Jewish community. The Hongzhi stele (1489) registers the names of 14 clans.
 * Ài (艾) (Heb.עי)
 * Shí (石) (Heb.שי)
 * Gāo (高)
 * Mù (穆)
 * Bái (白)
 * Huáng (黄)
 * Zhào (赵/趙) (Heb.שה)
 * Zhōu (周)
 * Zuǒ (左)
 * Niè (聂/聶)
 * Jin (金) (Heb.גין)
 * Lǐ (李) (Heb.לי)
 * Ǎn (俺)
 * Zhāng (張) (Heb.גן)

Leaders among this community were called manla, a term usually explained as a loanword from Arabic mullah. It has been suggested however that it may well have been a phonetic transcription of the Hebrew ma'lā (מעלה) "the honourable".

The Persian rubrics of the Kaifeng Jewish liturgy are written in the Bukharan dialect and the Bukharan Jews believe that in the past, some of their kin migrated to China and ceased to have contact with their country of origin. Many of the known Hebrew names of the Kaifeng Jews were only found among Persian and Babylonian Jews. Jewish written sources do not mention how the Jews arrived in Kaifeng, though a legend says that they arrived by land on the Silk Road.

Some Jesuit reports inaccurately stated the Kaifeng Jews did not intermarry. The Ming dynasty (1368–1644), in reaction to the foreign dynasty it replaced, laid down a policy of discrimination against foreigners, such as the resident Mongols and Semu. Laws regarding ethnic endogamy were issued that forbade members of such communities from marrying within their own groups. They were at liberty to marry only Han Chinese. Failure to do so would lead to enslavement. To what degree these measures were applied is unknown, but is evident from their Memorial Book that intermarriage took place on a large scale among the Kaifeng Jews certainly from Ming and it may be assumed, in Qing times. From the 19th century onwards it became the norm. They followed the Chinese custom of foot binding. The custom of the levirate marriage was retained, and polygamy was practiced: one Kaifeng Jew, the Zhang (張) clan's Zhang Mei, is recorded in the Memorial Book as having six wives, while Jin Rong-Zhang from the Jin clan (金) had five.

Towards the end of the Ming period, calculations based on the community's memorial book suggest that the Kaifeng Jewish community amounted to some 4,000 people. The catastrophic flood of 1642 brought about a precipitous drop in their population, to around 1,000 souls. The flood also destroyed the synagogue. Considerable efforts were made to save the scriptures. One man of the Gao clan, Gao Xuan, dove repeatedly into the flooded synagogue to rescue what he could and afterward all seven clans helped restore and rewrite the 13 scrolls. They obtained some from Ningxia and Ningbo to replace them, and another Hebrew Torah scroll was bought from a Muslim in Ningqiangzhou (in Shaanxi), who acquired it from a dying Jew at Canton.

Religious practices and beliefs

When Kaifeng Jews introduced themselves to the Jesuits in 1605, they called themselves members of the house of "Israel" The Jesuits also noted that a Chinese exonym labelled them as Tiao jin jiao, "the sect that plucks the sinews". This term arose from observing that, in memory of Jacob's wrestling with the angel, their butchers extracted the sciatic nerve (Gid hanasheh) as required in Nikkur, marking them as distinct from Muslims who otherwise, like them, also refrained from eating pork.

The evidence on the stelae shows that they identified the emergence of Judaism as coinciding with the early Zhou Dynasty (ca. 1046–256 BCE, in modern reckoning). Abraham was recorded as wakening as from sleep to the 19th generation from Pangu-Adam, and grasping profound mysteries, founded Judaism. This is said to have occurred in the 146th year of the Zhou Dynasty (i.e., 977 BCE). The floruit of Moses in turn is set in the 613th year of the same dynasty, namely around 510 BCE.

In their prayers and liturgy, the traditional community followed Talmudic usage, celebrating all the Jewish festivals, observing the prayers, rituals and days of fasting variously associated with the Jewish Sabbath, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, Passover, Shavuot, Sukkot, Hanukkah, Purim and Tisha B'Av. Within a few centuries, nonetheless, practices regarding the coming of age ceremony, wedding and death and burial were acclimatized to the respective Chinese customs, though the text of the Kaddish in the Memorial Book suggests the prayer was recited at funerals. By sometime after the mid 19th century all of these practices appear to have been abandoned, including the observance of the Sabbath.

Outside the synagogue was a large hall, the Tz'u t'ang or "Hall of the Ancestors" where, according to the Portuguese Jesuit Jean-Paul Gozani (1647–1732)  who lived in Kaifeng from 1698 to 1718, incense bowls were placed to commemorate the patriarchs and outstanding figures of the Law, as well as various holy men. This was similar to Chinese rites regarding ancestors, with the difference that no images were allowed. Their Pentateuch was divided into 53 sections according to the Persian style.

The Jesuits
The existence of Jews in China was unknown to Europeans until 1605, when Matteo Ricci, then established in Beijing, was visited by a Chinese official from Kaifeng. According to the account in De Christiana expeditione apud Sinas, Ricci's visitor, named Ai Tian, was a chüren – someone who had passed the provincial level of the imperial examination decades earlier in 1573. Ai Tian explained that he was a member of a 1,000 strong Israelite congregation that worshipped one God. They were unfamiliar with the word "Jew" which, according to Zhang Ligang, first appeared in the 1820s when a German missionary used this translated name of "Jews Country" in a journal. When he saw a Christian image of The Madonna, Mary with Jesus and John the Baptist, he took it to be a representation of Rebecca with her children Jacob and Esau.

Ai said that many other Jews resided in Kaifeng; they had a splendid synagogue, and possessed a great number of written materials and books. Ricci wrote that "his face was quite different to that of a Chinese in respect to his nose, his eyes, and all his features". This has been taken to allow an inference that, up to that time, the Kaifeng Jews had still largely shunned intermixing and were thus physically distinguishable from the surrounding population. About three years after Ai's visit, Ricci sent a Chinese Jesuit lay brother to visit Kaifeng; he copied the beginnings and ends of the holy books kept in the synagogue, which allowed Ricci to verify that they indeed were the same texts as the Pentateuch known to Europeans, except that they did not use Hebrew diacritics (which were a comparatively late invention).

When Ricci wrote to the "ruler of the synagogue" in Kaifeng, telling him that the Messiah the Jews were waiting for had come already, the archsynagogus wrote back, saying that the Messiah would not come for another ten thousand years. Nonetheless, apparently concerned with the lack of a trained successor, the old rabbi offered Ricci his position, if the Jesuit would join their faith and abstain from eating pork. Later, another three Jews from Kaifeng, including Ai's nephew, stopped by the Jesuits' house while visiting Beijing on business, and got themselves baptized. They told Ricci that the old rabbi had died, and (since Ricci had not taken him up on his earlier offer), his position was inherited by his son, "quite unlearned in matters pertaining to his faith". Ricci's overall impression of the situation of China's Jewish community was that "they were well on the way to becoming Saracens [i.e., Muslims] or heathens."

Father Joseph Brucker stated that Ricci's account of Chinese Jews indicated that there were only in the range of ten or twelve Jewish families in Kaifeng in the late 16th to early 17th centuries) In the Jesuits' manuscripts it was also stated that there was a greater number of Jews in Hangzhou.

19th to 20th centuries

From the 17th century, further assimilation had begun to erode these traditions as the rate of intermarriage between Jews and other ethnic groups such as the Han Chinese increased. With some Kaifeng families, Muslim men did marry their Jewish women, but the converse did not happen. In 1849, an observer who had contact with the Kaifeng Jewish community noted that "the Jews are quite Chinese in appearance." The Taiping Rebellion of the 1850s led to the dispersal of the community, but it later returned to Kaifeng. To avoid the threat of becoming defunct, the Kaifeng community dispatched members to Shanghai in order to seek help from Sephardic European Jewish merchants active there. The funds that were collected to this end were diverted to assist an influx of Russian Jews fleeing pogroms.

Shanghai's Baghdadi Jewish community made attempts to assist Kaifeng Jews in returning to Judaism, accepting them, despite their pure Chinese features, as co-religionists. The firm of S. H. Sassoon took two Kaifeng brothers in flight from the Taiping rebels under their wing and had them sent to Bombay where they underwent circumcision. One died within two years but the other, Feba, was renamed Shalem Sholome David, and was employed by the Sassoons in their Shanghai office (1872–1882). In 1883 he married a Baghdadi Jewess, Habiba Reuben Moses, and became a respected member of the Jewish community in Bombay. During the Boxer rebellion the Bombay community offered to subsidize the relocation of Kaifeng Jews to Shanghai.

The dismantlement of the synagogue sometime between 1850 and 1866 led to the community's demise. By the turn of the 19-20th century members of the community had fallen into dire poverty. The Zhang Kaifeng Jewish family had largely converted to Islam by this time. The site of the synagogue had turned into a fetid swamp. Much material belonging to it, even the roof tiles, was purchased by Muslims and others: two young Kaifeng Jews sold three Torahs to two Americans and an Austrian. Some property was also said to have been stolen. The Ark of the Sefer Torah was reportedly seen in a mosque. The site itself was apparently bought by Bishop White in 1914, and in 1954, the Chinese Communist government confiscated the property and built the Kaifeng Municipal Clinic on it. Some usages remained. Burial coffins maintained a distinctive shape from those customary for Chinese.

Kaifeng Jewish ancestry has been found among their descendants living among the Hui Muslims. Scholars have pointed out that Hui Muslims may have absorbed Kaifeng Jews instead of Han Confucians and Buddhists. Kaifeng Chinese had difficulty in distinguishing Jews and Muslims, and spoke of the former as "ancient Islam". The blue hat Hui also referred to Jews converting to Islam. Jin clan descendants also came to believe they were Muslims. Instead of being absorbed into Han, a portion of the Jews of China of Kaifeng became Hui Muslims. In 1948, Samuel Stupa Shih (Shi Hong Mo) (施洪模) said he saw a Hebrew language "Religion of Israel" Jewish inscription on a tombstone in a Qing dynasty Muslim cemetery to a place west of Hangzhou.

By Ricci's time, it is said that the Nanjing and Beijing Jews had become Muslims, though a Jewish community and synagogue still existed in Hangzhou.

Post-war times
The Kaifeng Jews are not recognized as a minority among the 55 ethnic groups which have been granted this official status in China. Their bid to be so listed in 1953 was turned down by the Chinese government. Their registration as "Jewish descendants" was changed to Han Chinese  out of official concerns that an ethnic status might lead them to seek privileges. What little remains of their material Jewish heritage has been locked away by Chinese authorities in a special room in the Kaifeng museum, ostensibly for the protection of their heritage or is conserved in the Dongda mosque, where the relics are inaccessible. Family papers and heirlooms were reportedly discarded or burnt out of fear of the Red Guards during the Chinese Cultural Revolution.

In 1980 during a hajj pilgrimage the Hui Muslim woman Jin Xiaojing (金效靜) realized she had Jewish roots. The Portland Rabbi Joshua Stampfer (1921–2019), on a visit to Kaifeng in 1983, estimated there were from 100 to 150 descendants of Kaifeng Jews, and provided the means for Jin Xiaojing's daughter, Qu Yinan, then a Beijing journalist, to study Judaism and Hebrew in California where she became the first of the Kaifeng community to be reconverted back to the religion of her ancestors. Qu Yinan's family abstained from certain foods, such as shellfish and pork, similar to the stipulations of kosher dietary law, which marked them off from most neighbouring Chinese. She had been under the impression her family was Muslim, who likewise abstain from pork, and her grandfather, like them, had worn a skullcap, only blue as opposed to the white cap worn donned by local Islamic believers.

Writing in 1987 Daniel Elazar suggested it would be difficult to maintain that contemporary Kaifeng Chinese of Jewish descent are Jews. Proposals to establish a Museum commemorating their history despite the city's lack of Jewish artifacts and documents, have received enthusiastic local government backing, which considers that such a centre would have positive effects on the local economy via Jewish tourism. Elazar opines that, over the ensuing decades, Western Jews will manage to encourage the growth of Chinese Jews among the descendant population The establishment of diplomatic relations between China and Israel in 1992 rekindled interest in Judaism and the Jewish experience.

It is difficult to estimate the number of Jews in China, population count often having to fluctuate constantly due to changes in official attitudes. A survey in the 80s suggested 140 families in China bore six of the traditional Jewish surnames, with 79 in Kaifeng amounting to 166 individuals. The last official census revealed about 400 official Jews in Kaifeng, now estimated at some 100 families totalling approximately 500 people. Up to 1,000 residents have ties to Jewish ancestry, though only 40 to 50 individuals partake in Jewish activities.

Within the framework of contemporary rabbinic Judaism, matrilineal transmission of Jewishness is predominant, while Chinese Jews based their Jewishness on patrilineal descent. This has been attributed to the influence of Chinese cultural norms, where lines of descent are typically patrilineal). The Jewish sinologist Jordan Paper notes, however, that all genealogies in the Torah consist exclusively of male descent. The modern assumption that Judaism is matrilineal has been used, he adds, to deny the authenticity of Chinese Jews because their clan lineages were patrilineal.

Kaifeng Jews are not recognized as Jews by birth and are required to formally convert to Judaism in order to receive Israeli citizenship. Some desire to reconnect with Judaism and some say their parents and grandparents told them that they were Jewish and would one day "return to their land". Under Israel's Law of Return, aliyah requires proof of Jewish descent through at least one grandparent. Though such evidence is not available for the Kaifeng community, and strict Orthodox Jewish rabbis would question their authenticity as Jews, Shavei Israel's Michael Freund has sponsored for over a decade (2006–2016) the emigration of 19 descendants of Kaifeng Jews to Israel, where they have studied variously Hebrew in ulpanim and a yeshiva in preparation for conversion to Judaism.

In the 21st century, both the Sino-Judaic Institute and Shavei Israel sent teachers to Kaifeng to help interested community members learn about their Jewish heritage, building on the pioneering work of the American Judeo-Christian Timothy Lerner. Advocates for the descendants of the Kaifeng Jews are exploring ways to convince the Chinese authorities to recognize the antiquity of the Kaifeng Jews and allow them to practice their Chinese Jewish way of life.

Kaifeng manuscripts

Several Kaifeng Torah scrolls survive, housed in collections in the British Library and elsewhere. A number of surviving written works are housed at Hebrew Union College's Klau Library in Cincinnati, Ohio. Among the works in that collection are a siddur (a Jewish prayer book) in Chinese characters and a Hebrew codex of the Haggadah. The codex is notable in that, while it ostensibly contains vowels, it was clearly copied by someone who did not understand them. While the symbols are accurate portrayals of Hebrew vowels, they appear to be placed randomly, thereby rendering the voweled text as gibberish. Since Modern Hebrew is generally written without vowels, a literate Hebrew speaker can disregard these markings, as the consonants are written correctly, with few scribal errors.

Also at the Klau Library is a haggadah from the 17th century and another from the 18th century, one written in Jewish-Persian hand, the other in Chinese Hebrew square script (like that of the Torah scrolls), using text primarily from an early stage of the Persian Jewish rite. A recent study of the text has a facsimile of one manuscript and a sample of the other, the full text of the Hebrew/Aramaic and Judeo-Persian haggadah (in Hebrew characters), as well as an annotated English translation.

Assessments
Xun Zhou, a research fellow at SOAS expressed doubts about the authenticity of the Kaifeng community, arguing that it was a construct of Christian-driven Orientalism, powered by the evangelical interests of James Finn and his two works on the question: The Jews in China (1843)) and The Orphan Colony of Jews in China (1874). Finn relied on the accounts of the 17th century Jesuit missionaries. Zhou maintained that the community had no Torah scrolls until 1851, when they suddenly appeared to be sold to eager Western collectors. She also stated that drawings of the synagogue were doctored in the West because the original did not look like one, and that the Kaifeng community claimed to have kept some Jewish practices since before they are known to have begun. Xun Zhou posited that the Kaifeng community was not Jewish in any meaningful sense. Her hypothesis has not found any support within the scholarly community.

In an overview of the place of Kaifeng Jews within the broader context of Jewish history, Simon Schama notes its exceptionality to the tragic diffidence of host societies to Jewish settlements:- "To survey the predicament of Jews in much of the rest of the world is to marvel at what the Kaifeng community escaped. In China, Jews were not subjected to violence and persecution, not demonized as God killers. Their synagogues were not invaded by conversionary harangues. They were not physically segregated from non-Jews nor forced to wear humiliating forms of identification on their dress. They were not forced into the most despised and vulnerable occupations, not stigmatized as grasping and vindictive, and portrayed neither as predatory monsters nor pathetic victims."

Literary references
The American novelist Pearl S. Buck, raised in China and fluent in Chinese, set one of her historical novels (Peony) in a Chinese Jewish community. The novel deals with the cultural forces which are gradually eroding the separate identity of the Jews, including intermarriage. The title character, the Chinese bondmaid Peony, loves her master's son, David ben Ezra, but she cannot marry him due to her lowly status. He eventually marries a high-class Chinese woman, to the consternation of his mother, who is proud of her unmixed heritage. Descriptions of remnant names, such as a "Street of the Plucked Sinew", and descriptions of customs such as refraining from the eating of pork, are prevalent throughout the novel.

The Broadway musical Chu Chem is a fictional tale which revolves around the Kaifeng Jewish community. In the show, a group of European actors joins a troupe of Chinese performers in order to present the story of Chu Chem, a scholar who journeys to Kaifeng with his wife Rose and his daughter Lotte because he wants to learn about his ancestors and find a husband for Lotte.

Documentary films
In his 1992 documentary series Legacy, writer Michael Wood traveled to Kaifeng and walked down a small lane known as the "alley of the sect who teach the Scriptures", that is, the alley of the Jews. He mentioned that there are still Jews in Kaifeng today, but they are reluctant to reveal themselves "in the current political climate". The documentary's companion book further states that one can still see a "mezuzah on the door frame, and the candelabrum in the living room". A recent documentary, Minyan in Kaifeng, covers the present-day Kaifeng Jewish community in China during a trip to Kaifeng which was taken by Jewish expatriates who met for weekly Friday night services in Beijing; upon learning about the Jews of Kaifeng, the members of the expatriate Jewish community decided to travel to Kaifeng in order to meet some of the descendants of the Kaifeng Jews and hold a Shabbat service.

title: Kaifeng Jews


text: File:ConstAreaBarricade.jpg

title: File:ConstAreaBarricade.jpg


text: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2005 February 20


text:
Qianlima

The qianlima (also chollima or cheollima in Korean, and senrima in Japanese; lit. 'thousand-li horse') is a mythical horse that originates from the Chinese classics and is commonly portrayed in East Asian mythology. The winged horse is said to be too swift and elegant to be mounted by any mortal man and is named after its ability to travel one thousand li in a single day.

Since the 3rd century BCE, the qianlima was used as a metaphor for exceptionally talented people and animals, such as Red Hare. The chollima is an important symbol in North Korea and is the namesake of the Chollima Movement.

China
Beginning around the 3rd century BCE, Chinese classics mention Bole, a mythological horse-tamer, as an exemplar of horse judging. Bole is frequently associated with the fabled qianlima "thousand-miles horse", which was supposedly able to gallop one thousand li (approximately 400 km) in a single day (e.g. Red Hare, sweats blood horse). Qianlima was a literary Chinese word for people with latent talent and ability; and Spring (1988:180) suggests, "For centuries of Chinese history, horses had been considered animals capable of performing feats requiring exceptional strength and endurance. Possibly it is for this reason that from early times horses have been used allegorically to represent extraordinary people." Bole recognizing a qianlima was a metaphor for a wise ruler selecting talented shi "scholar-officials". Thus, (Henry 1987:28) "Geniuses in obscurity were called thousand li horses who had not yet met their [Bole]".

Japan
Keitoku Senrima (Kim Ge-dok), a professional middleweight boxer in Japan, uses the stage name "Senrima" (the Japanese form of Qianlima/Chollima) to reference North Korea's Chollima campaigns and thereby express his Zainichi Korean heritage.

Korea
The chollima is an important symbol in North Korea. It is used as the nickname of its national association football team. The state also gave the name to the Chollima Movement, which promoted fast economic development, similar to that of the Chinese Great Leap Forward and the Soviet Stakhanovite movement. After the Korean War, the country required rebuilding to function again. In order to expedite the construction, President Kim Il Sung devised the slogan "rush at the speed of chollima".

Several statues are found of this creature in Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea. The Chollima Statue symbolizes "heroism, the constant, fighting spirit of the Korean people, and the innovations and advance so quickly, at the speed of the chollima". A notable one can be found near Mansu Hill, which was finished on 15 April 1961. It stands roughly 46 meters high and 16 meters long, measured from the pavement to the top of the Red Letter of the Central Committee of the Workers' Party of Korea representing the working class.

title: Qianlima


text: Category:Fashion stubs

title: Category:Fashion stubs


text:
Talk:Pharyngealization

Untitled
I believe that pharyngealization is a better name for the article than pharyngealisation. I am British and I do not believe this to be an Americanisation. There is an almost forgotten tradition that words with Greek etymologies use the -ize ending, and Latin roots use the -ise ending. As Standard US English and this tradition agree, I believe that this article should be moved. Any objections? Gareth Hughes 23:02, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm just wondering what the basis of that tradition is. My dictionary (of Australian English, granted, but English nonetheless) lists the two forms as equal in acceptability. thefamouseccles 03:43, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Commonwealth English has a general preferrence for -ise. Thus, the fact that the Australian dictionary in question lists both spellings as of equal validity suggests that -ize has a real basis in linguistic tradition. Gareth Hughes 10:39, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, in American English. :) Going back to my Greek grammar, though, it seems that -izô with zeta, rather than sigma, is more often correct for words like this in terms of Greek. That being said, English isn't Greek... I'd argue that in modern English the two suffixes have combined to make a generic case. We do have a redirect to the page from pharyngealization; if you want to move it, go ahead, but IMHO both variations are common enough in English usage that the decision which one should be the main article is probably moot. thefamouseccles 22:55, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Danish stød
I am not a linguist, but I wonder what the relation is between pharyngealization and the Danish stød, which is said to be "laryngealization". I believe those things should be the same; at least there ought to be a link between them pointing out the difference. Apus 07:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

 * There are some definite differences. Firstly, stød is a prosodic feature, not a consonantal one. Secondly, and more importantly, the pharynx and the larynx are two different points of articulation in linguistics. Compare pharyngeal consonant with laryngeal consonant (the latter being a common synonym for glottal consonant). Stød is articulated with the glottal folds only (manifesting as creaky voice or as full-blown glottal stop), not with any part of the pharynx, so "pharyngealisation" has no relevance to any discussion of stød, nor vice versa. Thefamouseccles 23:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Examples?
I think it would be great if examples of the speech phenomena in question could be added to these various linguistics articles. I've come to these pages several times while wandering through Wikipedia, and I never really understand what the article's talking about. Just some food for thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.173.201.155 (talk) 07:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

epiglottic constriction ??
..by which the pharynx or epiglottis is constricted.. This term needs different wording. The epiglottis is no muscular or hollow organ, and cannot be constricted. --Dr. Friendly (talk) 16:14, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Dark l is velarized, isn't it?
Outside of this wiki page, I've never seen dark l described as pharyngealized, nor have I seen the tilde used to symbolized pharyngealization. Isn't [ɫ] usually used to represent a velarized [l]? 126.10.36.243 (talk) 02:33, 23 June 2013 (UTC) Jeff Moore
 * 'Dark l' is either velarized or pharyngealized. I think if it's apical alveolar then it's velarized, if it's laminal alveolar or laminal denti-alveolar then it's pharyngealized. Russian hard 'l' is for sure pharyngealized, the co-articulation sounds considerably different to what one can hear in American English. Scottish 'l' is most likely pharyngealized as well, since it and Russian hard 'l' sound (almost) the same. --89.79.133.41 (talk) 10:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Laminal can be also velarised, but I think you're partially right - the only instances of pharyngealised  that I've seen are laminal. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 20:57, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Note 1
This note mentions that the character (presumably U+02E4 Modifier Letter Small Reversed Glottal Stop, as used on the International_Phonetic_Alphabet page) is easily confused with another character (presumably U+02C1 Modifier Letter Reversed Glottal Stop), but only shows what the characters look like. Therefore, Note 1 falls into its own trap. It should specify the Unicode codepoints so that it is clear which character is which. Rhdunn (talk) 14:56, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

request for sound
This article could be greatly improved if there were sound examples. I have found the IPA sounds very informative and I am not too clear if I am imitating this right. --Squidonius (talk) 00:24, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pharyngealization


text:
Talk:A Bell Is a Cup

A Bell Is A Cup Until It Is Struck
Corrected the POV and removed the POV tag. Preisler 23:03, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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Nothing Nice to Say

Nothing Nice to Say is a webcomic, touted as "The world's FIRST online punk comic", created by artist Mitch Clem. It is sometimes abbreviated as Nothing Nice, NNTS or NN2S.

Synopsis
First launched online in February 2002, Nothing Nice To Say follows roommates Blake and Fletcher, while living in Minneapolis, Minnesota, as they make fun of punk rock, punk rock fans, and just about everything relating to the punk subculture, including themselves. Although it follows a standard 3-panel webcomic setup of two roommates, one of whom is slightly off-the-wall, it was seminal for placing them in a punk setting.

History
During much of the comic's existence, Mitch used the space under the comic as his blog. Now his blog can be found at his LiveJournal (See Link Below).

Clem's blogs began to show that he was likely suffering bouts of depression. Because of this he was mocked on the comic's own discussion forum; the internet traffic for which had rapidly outgrown the traffic for the comic strip. This is allegedly one of the reasons that Mitch- somewhat unceremoniously – ended the comic in 2004. At this time, Mitch told fans he would be collaborating on a strip called Joe and Monkey with fellow webcomic artist Zach Miller.

Clem left Joe and Monkey before the series even launched, but did return to take over writing and illustration duties for the entire month of January 2005, at which point Mitch announced he would resurrect Nothing Nice in what would become the now familiar black and white format, as opposed to the original run, which was in color.

Updates slowed sometime after January 2006, when Clem began focusing his energy on a new autobiographical strip called San Antonio Rock City. Eventually, Nothing Nice was put on indefinite hiatus and SARC became Clem's main focus.

Mitch Clem stated that he was unopposed to bringing back Nothing Nice (though perhaps at a less frequent schedule), and stayed true to this statement when he brought it back on a weekly schedule on August 28, 2006. Updates ranged from sporadic to nonexistent for a while as the focus shifted from SARC to NN2S and back. Clem eventually quit San Antonio Rock City after breaking up with his then-girlfriend who served as the series' co-star, and turned his focus back to Nothing Nice, where it continued to update on a mostly regular thrice weekly schedule. Nothing Nice went back on temporary hiatus as Clem began work on another autobiographical strip, My Stupid Life. Nothing Nice to Say resumed on September 15, 2008, then was placed on hiatus since December 23, 2008, and resumed again on September 5, 2011 with a new co-writer, Joe Briggs.

Blake
One of the comic's main characters. He is named after Blake Schwarzenbach of Jawbreaker and Jets to Brazil fame (also has an obvious resemblance to Jawbreaker-era Schwarzenbach), and is a great fan of both bands. Tends to be the voice of reason of the two main characters. Besides Schwarzenbach bands, he is also a fan of pop-punk bands and even some indie rock bands. Played guitar in a band with Fletcher, called The Negative Adjectives. He has a shrine to Henry Rollins in his bedroom, something Fletcher was unaware of until September 13, 2006. Blake is considered by many fans to represent a sort of "parallel universe Mitch", or is at least modelled on the comic's author; the parallels between certain of their life events and their shared tastes and opinions are used as evidence for this.

Fletcher
Blake's bald-headed roommate. Did not originally have a name; instead he was named through a reader contest. Tends to come up with some fairly crazy and somewhat anti-social ideas, sometimes resulting in litigation. He is also sometimes attracted to irritating behaviors and habits simply for their ability to anger others, such as his taking up smoking. Often wears a band shirt that reads "BAND". Is a fan of 1980s hardcore punk. Played drums for The Negative Adjectives. Recently contracted a case of "pop punk" at a show. He is often a comic foil to Blake's role as straightman and the two most often provide the main thrust of the series' plotlines.

Phillip
Originally a ska fan, he now listens to emo and vehemently denies having ever liked ska at all; this is plotted by the author to make fun of what he perceives to be the trend-hopping nature of most modern-day emo fans. Blames the female gender for most of his problems, even though they actually tend to be self-inflicted. Also seems to exude "whiny bitch pheromones" which make it impossible to stay around him for any longer time without resorting to physical violence. He started out 2007 by renouncing emo in favor of what he felt was less depressing pop-punk, but after buying the newest pop punk album (implied to be the album "Hospitals" by Off With Their Heads), he hanged himself in his apartment. His name is a reference to the comedian Emo Philips.

Cecil
An anthropomorphic gopher (refential to the strip's setting of the Twin Cities of Minnesota.) Very sarcastic, and at one time insulted people for spare change. According to the comic, has played bass for Screeching Weasel, roadied for Fifteen and secretly written songs for The Donnas. Played bass for The Negative Adjectives before he quit right before their first show. Cecil has apparently rejoined the band since Joe Banks (see below) joined. Usually seen wearing a Quincy Punx shirt.

Charlie/Chris
A vegan, hardcore-crust punk. The rest of the cast tends to walk on egg shells around him due to his veganism, as they're afraid they might upset him if he so much as touches an object that has been in contact with dairy products. He has been referred to as both "Charlie" and "Chris," an error that Clem has jokingly acknowledged.

Karen
A radical feminist (riot grrrl). Spends a lot of her time getting upset at Blake and Fletcher for allegedly objectifying female punk rock band members, yet started dating Alice only because a "strong lesbian stance" would improve her image as a feminist.

Joe
The comic's youngest character. He's a skater and tends to get made fun of by Blake and Fletcher, as they see most skaters as "corporate whores". He confused buttons of fashion companies with wearing "cool" buttons of punk bands.

Joe Banks
In 2005, Nothing Nice To Say and Joe and Monkey had a crossover, featuring Joe, the titular hero of the latter, auditioning for Blake and Fletcher's band, The Negative Adjectives (after seeing a poster written by Fletcher proclaiming that the band needed no new members). Banks was accepted as the band's new singer and second guitarist and has since been featured in strips featuring the band performing.

San Antonio Rock City
San Antonio Rock City, or SARC, was an autobiographical webcomic about Mitch and his weekly exploits with then-girlfriend Victoria. This comic was updated consistently several times each week, eventually going daily, for approx 6 months, and featured several references to Nothing Nice, including a strip with cameos of Blake, Fletcher, Cecil, Joe Banks, and the Anarchist Fan. Mitch quit the series permanently after he and Victoria broke up in early 2007.

The Coffee Achievers
The Coffee Achievers originally started out as Nothing Nice story arc, but later turned into its own comic as a collaboration with Joe Dunn, from Joe Loves Crappy Movies. The cast is mostly the same as that of Nothing Nice, but with small alterations, and is not considered to take place in the same universe as Nothing Nice To Say.

The Coffee Achievers began a working relationship between Clem and Joe Dunn that has now developed into a partnership, with Dunn serving as Clem's go-to colorist for his prolific work creating concert fliers and album art. The two have also expressed plans to eventually team up again for Clem's long-planned post-apocalyptic saga "The Rain Dogs".

Publications
On February 19, 2008 Mitch announced on his MySpace blog and his Livejournal that Dark Horse Comics would be publishing the long-awaited NN2S book. The book would contain : The book was released in October 2008.
 * All Nothing Nice to Say comics from 2006–2007.
 * Over 40 pages of guest strips Mitch has done for other comics (including his month-long stint for Joe and Monkey).
 * Redrawn strips from the early years of NN2S to introduce new readers to the characters.
 * Illustrations separating the different sections of the book.

Mitch has also created original Nothing Nice comics for Razorcake Magazine, and for MySpace Dark Horse Presents, while strips from the web have been reprinted in countless fanzines.

Criticism and analysis
Nothing Nice To Say was used along with Penny Arcade and American Elf as an example of comics using the web to create "an explosion of diverse genres and styles" in Scott McCloud's book Making Comics

title: Nothing Nice to Say


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lag screw

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 15:12, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Lag screw
Sounds like instructions rather than an encyclopedic article. -- Riffsyphon1024 23:04, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a "how to" book. Zzyzx11 00:07, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not even enough here for a transwikibooks. —Korath (Talk) 02:13, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete this but we should welcome a replacement article on lag screws generally. Rossami (talk) 08:45, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete without prejudice against a real article on the subject. -- Cyrius|✎ 22:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)