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Punch Imlach

George "Punch" Imlach (March 15, 1918 – December 1, 1987) was a Canadian ice hockey coach and general manager best known for his association with the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Buffalo Sabres. He is a member of the Hockey Hall of Fame, and the Ontario Sports Hall of Fame (2004).

Early career
Born in Toronto, Imlach attended Riverdale Collegiate Institute and played junior hockey in the OHA for the Toronto Young Rangers (1935–38) and senior hockey with the Toronto Goodyears (1938–40) and the Toronto Marlboros (1940–41). He enlisted in the Canadian Army during World War II, where he coached for the first time, with an army team in Cornwall, Ontario. He was invited to training camp by the Detroit Red Wings after being discharged, but felt he had put on too much weight and declined.

Imlach played for the Quebec Aces of the QSHL from 1945 to 1949 and spent 11 seasons with the team, becoming coach and then general manager, and then vice-president and part-owner of the franchise. After the 1956–57 season, Imlach moved to professional hockey, hired by the Boston Bruins as general manager of their Springfield Indians farm team. Before the season ended, Imlach had made himself head coach as well. After the season, team owner Eddie Shore took back control of the team, leaving Imlach without a job, although he was still under contract to the Bruins.

Joining the Maple Leafs
In July 1958, at the age of 40, the Toronto Maple Leafs hired Imlach as one of the team's two assistant general managers, along with King Clancy. However, the Leafs did not have a general manager, and Imlach instead reported to a seven-member committee headed by Stafford Smythe which oversaw the team's business operations. In November, Imlach was named general manager—only the third full-time general manager in the team's 40-year history. Only a week after his hiring, he fired coach Billy Reay. Reay had been offered the manager job before Imlach was hired, but turned it down. Initially, Imlach said he was replacing Reay with Bert Olmstead as player-coach, but almost immediately, he changed his mind and made himself head coach.

Imlach was known as a harsh taskmaster who frequently abused his players verbally and physically. He had a preference for older players, many of whom were his strongest supporters as they felt Imlach was giving them their last chance at winning the Stanley Cup. By contrast, many younger players, such as Frank Mahovlich, chafed at Imlach's autocratic coaching style.

Imlach took over a team that had finished last the previous season and was mired in last place again at the time he took over for Reay. However, the team staged a strong run late in the season and finished a point ahead of the New York Rangers for fourth place, allowing them to squeeze into the playoffs. They defeated the favoured Boston Bruins in the first round before losing to the league-leading Montreal Canadiens in five games in the Stanley Cup Finals. Three years later, Imlach led the Leafs to their first Stanley Cup in 11 years. He coached three more Cup-winning teams, in 1963, 1964 and 1967.

In February 1964, he traded Dick Duff, Bob Nevin and three young prospects – Rod Seiling, Arnie Brown and Bill Collins – to the Rangers for Andy Bathgate and Don McKenney. Nevin played a major role in the Rangers' resurgence in the late 1960s, while Duff won four more Cups with the Canadiens. The players acquired by the Leafs were both gone following the next season. In the 1965 intra-league draft, Imlach left Gerry Cheevers, a young goaltending prospect, unprotected. He was snapped up by the Boston Bruins and went on to have a Hall-of-Fame career there.

Following expansion of the NHL from six teams to 12 for the 1967–68 season, the Leafs struggled and Imlach responded by pulling off another big trade. In February 1968, he sent Mahovlich, 20-year-old Garry Unger, Pete Stemkowski and the rights to Carl Brewer to the Detroit Red Wings for Paul Henderson, Norm Ullman and Floyd Smith. Two months later, he sent 28-year-old Jim Pappin to the Chicago Black Hawks, where he would become one of that team's top scorers.

In December 1968, Imlach was asked by Stafford Smythe to give the coaching job to John McLellan, but Imlach refused and told Smythe to fire him or leave him alone. During the season, Mike Walton walked out on the team, saying he wouldn't play for Imlach again. He returned about a week later. On April 6, 1969, minutes after an early and embarrassing playoff elimination at the hands of the Boston Bruins, Imlach was fired by the Leafs. He still had a year remaining on his contract, which paid him about $35,000 a year. In the dressing room after the announcement was made, veteran Leafs Johnny Bower and Tim Horton both said they would leave with Imlach (they both returned the following season, although neither would remain with the Leafs for long). Imlach's assistant, Clancy, had previously said that he would walk away if Imlach was fired, but he was persuaded to stay with the team. Jim Gregory was immediately announced as Imlach's replacement as general manager.

Building the Sabres
After being fired by the Leafs, it was expected that Imlach would join the NHL's new Vancouver franchise. Imlach, Joe Crozier, and Foster Hewitt had become partners in the Vancouver Canucks of the Western Hockey League and were in line to become owners of the Vancouver NHL team. But they didn't have the financial resources to buy the team, which went to Medical Investment Corporation (Medicor). Medicor bought the WHL Canucks for $2.8 million, with Imlach making a reported gain of more than $250,000. He was offered a job with the NHL Canucks, but instead accepted an offer from the NHL's other expansion team, the Buffalo Sabres, as their first coach and general manager in 1970.

In the team's first draft, it was a foregone conclusion that the first selection would be junior phenom Gilbert Perreault. The first pick would go to the team that won the spin of a roulette wheel. Imlach opted to take numbers 11–20 on the wheel, since 11 was his favourite number. When league president Clarence Campbell spun the wheel, he initially thought the pointer landed on 1. However, while Campbell was congratulating the Vancouver delegation, Imlach asked Campbell to check again. As it turned out, the pointer was actually on 11. Imlach promptly selected Perreault, who would go on to play 17 years with the Sabres and still holds every major offensive record in Sabres history. (Perreault, incidentally, would himself be assigned the number 11 for his entire career in Buffalo - the same number he had worn for his three seasons with the Montreal Jr. Canadiens - a number that has since been retired by the Sabres organization.)

Imlach suffered a heart attack on January 7, 1972, and stepped down as Sabres coach in May after being told by doctors that fatigue would put his health at risk. Joe Crozier filled in as interim coach after Imlach's heart attack and was given the job outright for the 1972–1973 season.

In the 1974 entry draft, Imlach—frustrated with the excessive tedium and length of that year's draft proceedings—deliberately selected an imaginary Japanese centre, Taro Tsujimoto, supposedly of the Tokyo Katanas, in the 11th round (183rd overall). Only after weeks had passed did the league discover that Tsujimoto did not in fact exist. Today, the league officially records the 183rd selection of the 1974 entry draft as an "invalid claim"; the Sabres still list Tsujimoto among the team's alumni.

During the 1974–75 NHL season, the Sabres, coached by one of Imlach's former players, Floyd Smith, made the Stanley Cup finals in only their fifth year of existence. With notable exceptions like Gilbert Perreault and Rick Martin, many Sabres players feuded with Imlach, particularly Jim Schoenfeld, Sabres' captain from 1974 to 1977, whom Imlach criticized publicly. After being eliminated in the second round of the playoffs in 1978, Imlach promised sweeping changes to the roster, but the changes never came. With the team off to an 8–10–6 record, Imlach was fired by the Sabres on December 4, 1978, along with coach Marcel Pronovost. Nevertheless, he was one of the inductees in the inaugural class of the Buffalo Sabres Hall of Fame.

Controversy in Toronto
In July 1979, Imlach returned to the Leafs as general manager and the right-hand man of owner Harold Ballard, his longtime friend. It was a controversial return, one that involved the dismantling of a team that had faced the Montreal Canadiens in both the 1978 and 1979 playoffs and was viewed by many as having a promising future. On his first day with the team, Imlach told the media that the Leafs only had five or six good players and the rest of the team needed to be improved.

Imlach implemented a dress code requiring that all players wear a jacket and tie when in the Leafs' offices. Tiger Williams was fined $250 for not wearing a tie, and the fine would have doubled for a second offence. Players were no longer allowed to drink beer on plane and bus rides back from road games.

Imlach quickly butted heads with team captain Darryl Sittler, using confrontational tactics to try to undermine his influence on the team. Imlach also disliked Sittler's prominent role in the NHL Players Association; during Imlach's first stint with the Leafs, he was well known as an ardent foe of the union and its executive director, Alan Eagleson. In September, Imlach went to court in an unsuccessful attempt to get an injunction to stop Sittler and goaltender Mike Palmateer from appearing on the TV show Showdown. Sittler had a no-trade clause in his contract and, through his agent Eagleson, insisted on $500,000 to waive it. With Sittler apparently untouchable, Imlach instead traded Sittler's best friend Lanny McDonald to the moribund Colorado Rockies on December 29, 1979. An anonymous player told the Toronto Star that Ballard and Imlach made the trade specifically to undermine Sittler's influence on the team. In protest, prior to the Leafs' first game following the trade, Sittler removed the captain's "C" from his sweater, and resigned as team captain after the game. Eagleson called the trade "a classless act."

Imlach offered Sittler to the Sabres in return for Perreault, but was turned down. He also rejected an offer from the Philadelphia Flyers who were said to be willing to trade Rick MacLeish and André Dupont for Sittler. In March 1980, after Floyd Smith was injured in a car accident and acting coach Dick Duff led the team to two lopsided defeats, Imlach named himself as coach, though it would actually be assistant coach Joe Crozier who would direct the team from behind the bench for their last ten regular season games. Imlach and Crozier were able to get the Leafs to squeak into the playoffs, albeit with a record five games under .500—the first of 13 straight seasons without a winning record. Imlach named Crozier as his full-time successor after the season.

It looked like the Leafs were ready to accept an offer for Sittler from the Quebec Nordiques when Imlach had another heart attack in August 1980. Ballard used the opportunity to name himself acting general manager and hold talks with Sittler, and the two agreed that Sittler would return to the team as captain for the 1980–81 season. Ballard also signed defenceman Börje Salming to a new contract with terms that Imlach had refused to offer. Before the end of 1981, Imlach was back running the Leafs as general manager.

During the Leafs' training camp in September 1981, Imlach suffered a third heart attack, which was followed by quadruple bypass surgery at Toronto General Hospital. Ballard became interim manager and told the media that Imlach's poor health meant that "he's through as general manager." Imlach was never officially fired, but when he tried to return to work in November, he found that his parking spot at Maple Leaf Gardens had been reassigned and Gerry McNamara had been made acting general manager. Imlach never returned to work and his contract was allowed to expire.

He suffered a fourth heart attack in November 1985 at a casino while on vacation in Las Vegas and died after a fifth heart attack in Toronto on December 1, 1987, at the age of 69. Over his career, Imlach amassed a coaching record of 423 wins, 373 losses and 163 ties to go along with four Stanley Cups. His 365 wins with the Leafs are still the most in franchise history. He was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame as a builder in 1984.

title: Punch Imlach


text: File:Mage - the Hero Defined (no. 1, cover art).jpg

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Lakatoro

Lakatoro is the capital of Malampa Province of the island country of Vanuatu. It is situated on the eastern shore of Malakula and is the largest settlement in that island. Lakatoro consists of a couple of retail shops, a supermarket, and a local market selling locally farmed goods.

Transportation
The town is served by Norsup Airport. There is a weekly shipping service from Port Vila (Efate) to Litzlitz (Malekula) to Luganville (Santo).

Banking
The National Bank of Vanuatu (NBV) is the only bank in Lakatoro. An agent for Australia and New Zealand Banking Group has a representative in Lakatoro who acts as an agent for their GoMoney product. The agent's office is at PIM Trading, next to the Market house.

Mobile
Telecom Vanuatu Limited (TVL) and Digicel (Digi) both provide mobile phone service in Lakatoro.

title: Lakatoro


text:
Regulation Fair Disclosure

Regulation FD (Fair Disclosure), ordinarily referred to as Regulation FD or Reg FD, is a regulation that was promulgated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) in August 2000. The regulation is codified as. Although "FD" stands for "fair disclosure", as can be learned from the adopting release, the regulation was and is codified in the Code of Federal Regulations simply as Regulation FD. Subject to certain limited exceptions, the rules generally prohibit public companies from disclosing previously nonpublic, material information to certain parties unless the information is distributed to the public first or simultaneously.

Details
The regulation sought to stamp out selective disclosure, in which some investors (often large institutional investors) received market moving information before others (often smaller, individual investors), and were allowed to trade on it.

Insider exception
Under Regulation FD, selective disclosure may be made so long as the company first collects a confidentiality agreement from the other party (or the other party is already subject to a duty of trust and confidence). Although the agreement need not include an undertaking not to trade on the information, the regulation was heavily driven by a desire to make it easier to prosecute recipients of selective information for insider trading, because in many instances only persons who owe such a duty are subject to such prosecution. Thus, the SEC explained in the Proposing Release:

"To make clear the scope of the Regulation, paragraph (b) of Rule 100 expressly states that the Rule does not apply to disclosures of material information to persons who are bound by duties of trust or confidence not to disclose or use the information for trading. Paragraph (b) expressly refers to several types of persons whose misuse of the information would subject them to insider trading liability under Rule 10b-5: (1) "temporary" insiders of an issuer – e.g., outside consultants, such as its attorneys, investment bankers, or accountants;42 and (2) any other person who has expressly agreed to maintain the information in confidence, and whose misuse of the information for trading would thus be covered either under the "temporary insider" or "misappropriation" theory."

Thus, in essence, there is an exception to Regulation FD that allows disclosure to anyone who is an insider, or becomes a "temporary insider," subject to insider trading prohibitions.

Venues and social media
On April 2, 2013, the Securities and Exchange Commission said companies can use social media to disseminate information if certain requirements are met. As with company websites, investors’ access to the chosen social media platform must not be restricted and investors must be notified about which social media will be used to disseminate information.

Materiality and public record
The rule only prohibits private disclosure of material information. This means that the company disclose "seemingly inconsequential data" which might prove consequential in a mosaic. The company can inform also analysts of public record information without necessarily violating the rule.

Applicability
The rule only applies to certain groups such as securities market professionals and shareholders, which allows the company to continue providing necessary information to business partners.

Background
Before the 1990s, most individual investors followed the progress of their stock holdings by receiving phone calls from their broker, by reading annual or quarterly reports mailed to them by the company, by reading news in newspapers or financial publications, or by calling the company with questions. Most investors relied primarily upon full service brokers, such as Merrill Lynch, for trading advice.

By 1999, individual investors became more aware of quarterly analyst conference calls, where a company's management would disclose the results of the quarter and answer analyst questions about the company's past performance and future prospects. At the time, most companies did not allow small investors to attend their calls.

One small investor, Mark Coker, founded a company called Bestcalls.com, a directory of conference calls open to all investors, to help persuade public companies to open up all their calls ( and ). Coker campaigned in the press to educate individual investors about the benefits of conference call attendance as a fundamental research tool, and worked constructively with the SEC to educate them about the pervasiveness of selective disclosure on earnings conference calls. At the same time, companies such as Onstream Media, Broadcast.com, Vcall.com, Shareholder.com and Thomson Financial (now Thomson Reuters) offered webcasting technology and services that made it more practical, and more affordable, for companies to allow all investors to listen in.

In December 1999, the SEC proposed Regulation FD. Thousands of individual investors wrote the SEC and voiced their support for the regulation. But support was not unanimous. Large institutional investors, accustomed to benefiting from selectively disclosed material information, fought vigorously against the proposed regulation. They argued that fair disclosure would lead to less disclosure. In October 2000, the SEC promulgated Regulation FD.

Enforcement
In 2017, the SEC charged TherapeuticsMD with violating Regulation FD, which was the first case focused on the regulation in six years.

title: Regulation Fair Disclosure


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prometheism

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 16:42, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Prometheism
The Prometheism article is non-notable, unencyclopedic original research. It was created on February 4 by an anon IP, believed to be User:Dnagod contribs, who has been banned indefinitely for making anti-Semitic attacks on other editors, and who is an associate of User:Paul Vogel, who has also been banned indefinitely for similar reasons. Prometheism seems to be a set of ideas, invented by Dnagod or his associates, promoting white supremacism, racial separatism, anti-Semitism, and eugenics. Dnagod is the webmaster of a number of websites that promote prometheism, including http://www.prometheism.net, http://neoeugenics.home.comcast.net , and http://www.cosmotheism.net. There apppears to be no evidence outside these websites that prometheism exists as a religion (as the article claimed). A Google search for "prometheism" returns 710 entries, which resolve to 191 unique ones , which are either from the Dnagod websites, or are mentions of prometheism on discussion sites.

The original text inserted by the anon IP was plagiarized from Dnagod's prometheism website and was blanked because of copyvio. It has now been rewritten by User:Dariodario contribs, a new user who may be Dnagod. The article cites Matt Neunke, called Dr. Matt Neunke by Dariodario, as being the leader of the prometheist religion. A Google search returns 1,760 entries for this name, resolving to 127 unique ones. Nuenke seems to write a lot of book reviews for amazon.com, but I've found nothing that would justify a Wikipedia entry. He's mentioned in glowing terms on the Stormfront discussion group, [ http://forum.stormfront.org /showthread.php?p=65596#post65596] and has published a book review on the Vanguard site. Dnagod spent his time at Wikipedia posting links to his websites into articles and talk pages, and this article seems like another attempt to promote them. SlimVirgin 08:33, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

COLOR="#FF5500">arblind]] 11:19, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete SlimVirgin 08:33, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, abuse. Szyslak 08:35, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, original research about non-notable pseudo-movement. -Willmcw 09:05, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge content to Cosmotheism, Matt Nuenke, or White nationalist religious movements. -Willmcw 01:04, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Original research. --Viriditas  | Talk 10:55, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. As it stands, the article is little more than an advertisement for a small group of kooks and racists (who seem to be stuck in early childhood — swearing lifelong oaths and the rest, very Enid Blyton), the only criticisms mentioned being those from other kooks and racists who have infinitesimally different views.  On the other hand, if the group exists, it should probably be mentioned somewhere. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 11:01, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan - St(talk) 16:16, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete -- not because it's Nazi nutcase drivel, but because it's drivel. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:39, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete non-notable, self-promotion. – flamurai (t) 17:36, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: the current state of the article seems to have resolved the original kookiness. But whether it is notable or not, I'm not sure. But I just wanted to point that out. --Fastfission 21:08, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * It's shorter which is an improvement. But it still calls itself a "religion" and claims to be aiming for "godhood." However, it's the lack notability that's the main issue. SlimVirgin 21:28, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * I cleaned it up, but I didn't alter the basic content, which would require more research. The connection to cosmotheism suggests to me that it isn't unreasonable to characterize it as a religion, and their aim of "Godhood" fits into that context also. (If I were trying to rack up the edit count, I should stop editing these doomed articles.) --BM 21:44, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I could start the slimvirginist religion today and create my own websites, but that wouldn't mean I'd be using the word "religion" as it's generally understood, and more importantly, wouldn't mean slimvirginism should have a Wikipedia entry. This is more of a non-notability than a content issue, as I see it. SlimVirgin 21:55, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, yes — and the peculiar and unexplained use of 'godhood' as something that a group of human beings can achieve puts it pretty firmly in the kookiness bracket, whatever other changes are made. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 21:57, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Whenever I hear that word, I think of the British man, former Green Party leader or activist, I believe, and former television sports presenter, who became a godhead, but I forget his name . . . Got it. David Icke. Pronounced Ike, but I always think of it as "Icky". Ended up with two wives, or a wife and live-in mistress. It's interesting how godheads often end up with several devoted women followers. Perhaps that's Dnagod's goal. SlimVirgin 22:09, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know of him; sort of a D.Icke-head. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 22:14, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * LOL, yes, and wouldn't you know it, he's got his own Wikipedia page: David Icke. Regarding the Dnagit notion of "godhood", there are some statements here on a related website, where I think what they mean is that they're atheists, or perhaps with a belief in God as Gaia. Teilhard de Chardin seems to be mentioned a lot. I also just noticed that the main prometheism website is asking for a $100 donation on its front page. Another reason we shouldn't let it use Wikipedia to advertise. SlimVirgin 22:25, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ack! I'd forgotten about that lizards-are-among-us stuff. You don't think that he is Dnagit do you? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 22:36, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * It's superb. I wasn't aware of the reptile update, and that the Queen Mother was involved. He's a cross between Dnagit and Lyndon LaRouche. SlimVirgin 22:38, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete Manages to be simultaneously both insignificant and uninformative, with great, unlearnable skill. -- RyanFreisling @ 01:41, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete. Web site advertisement. --MPerel( talk 05:38, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete. Non-notable, uninformative, un-encyclopediac. -CunningLinguist 09:17, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Latissimus dorsi muscle

Page Rewrite
Can I rewrite this page? Hope I didn't offended anyone. Anyway, if so, you can always put back the old article here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewprc (talk • contribs) 08:32, 18 February 2005 (UTC)

hopefully accurate ascii-art
I always heard that the triangle muscles were the lats so I added some ascii-art to that effect. I don't hve a copy of Gray's Anatomy handy so I haven't checked this out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EricGPrud (talk • contribs) 08:44, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Nice ASCII art :) Moving it here, as I just replaced it with a png image.

 * Visually, the lats are the " \ / " in

0 _|_  |\ /|  | - |  | |  | |

 * --Nikai 23:05, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Rows
Hi, just wondering, what's the difference between a bent over row and a dumbell row? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.147.43.82 (talk • contribs) 23:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Bent-over rows are performed sitting, with a bend at the waist (about 45-90º) The motion is more or less the same as all other rows-- pulling the arm(s) in towards the body and pulling back the scapula. They can be performed with a barbell, dumbbells, or even kettlebells. A good example of the dumbbell bent-over row can be found |here. Dumbbell rows are most often performed one arm at a time as in the example.

 * Both barbell and dumbbell rows can be bent-over or "straight" (with no waist bend.) Straight rows, naturally, are a bit tricky to perform-- they require either a machine with pulleys, lying prone on a bench with the bar on the floor, or performing the exercise as a supine chinup with the feet supported (|an example.) Kajerm 18:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

New Picture Request
find a pic with anterior view please! and lateral view too!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tkjazzer (talk • contribs) 19:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Latissumus Dorsi Flap
Can someone please add a section on what this procedure entails, its side effects, etc? thanks 98.217.183.53 (talk) 16:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)A.L.

lat
It is not explicit what is a "lat." --Beroal (talk) 15:48, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Material from Gray's anatomy.
I have put back the attribution to Gray's anatomy which was removed for a non specified reason several years ago. There is still substantial material in the 'Variations' section which is taken verbatim from Gray's barring a few insertions. This seems to be due to an original large chunk of material incorporated and correctly attributed by Arcadian which has subsequently had the attribution stripped from it and a large chunk of the material removed, specifically all of that detailing the actual basic structure of the Latissimus dorsi muscle. I am considering reverting the removal of the old 'Overview' section. Knight of the sorrowful countenance (talk) 23:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Historical misunderstanding of function
Is it worth commenting on how in a lot of old-time strength manuals, utterly absurd exercises were often prescribed for building this? For example page 32 of the 1947 book "Muscles of the Body" exercise 10 has you essentially punching with dumb-bells. While the lats would be used to decelerate, it's still pretty strange when you could just do a bent-over row. While they do have pullovers (exercise 15, page 35) they are used only with the intent of targetting the pec major. Ranze (talk) 04:25, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Which area is Latissimus dorsi?
Isn't different regions of body have same labelling in these two pics? Either I am wrong or one of these images is. Serjatt4 (talk) 12:46, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Rename this article to Latissimus Dorsi
There is no need for the word muscle in there. 67.58.228.137 (talk) 02:18, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Latissimus dorsi muscle


text:
Talk:Naval Weapons Station Yorktown

Copyright
What's the problem? The source, http://www.nwsy.navy.mil/, is a US Government site. —wwoods 08:33, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Naval Weapons Station Yorktown


text:
Talk:List of Hasidic dynasties and groups

Use (Hasidic dynasty) to standardize naming of groups
In order to maintain a standard naming format for all these Hasidic groups, add (Hasidic dynasty) to each name so that it will be clear what the subject is. For example: "Nadvorna" is now Nadvorna (Hasidic dynasty), "Belz" is Belz (Hasidic dynasty) etc. IZAK 08:34, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Note: The opinion of above has been contested by  . -- -- -- 02:19, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * please discuss this more fully before making major changes, also note the common sense rule of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 04:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Please note WP:PRECISION and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. "standardize naming" is not needed in titles. Where ambiguity exists, "standardize qualifier" is needed, but where ambiguity doesn't exist, no qualifier is needed, and the WP:LEAD will make it clear what the subject is. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:11, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

New project
I'm undertaking to begin a stub for each of the Chasidic dynasties, any input from others would be greatly appreciated. Atheistrabbi 4 July 2005 19:21 (UTC)

Definition
Why does this article not explain what is meant by a "Hasidic dynasty"? - Nat Krause 05:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Explained in seperate article: Hasidic dynasty. --   --   --   00:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. Hasidic dynasty has since been redirected to this article, which now does explain the definition of "Hasidic dynasty". -- -- -- 02:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Pittsburgh?
Is this entry correct? Rmhermen 14:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes - I know the Pittsburger Rebbe personally - however I have never heard of the Philadelphia dynasty Itzik18 17:23, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Pishkivitcha
This has just been added (in the wriong place). Has anyone heard of such a dynasty? Redaktor 09:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Pishkivitcha has since been removed by (20:01, 12 September 2012). -- -- -- 05:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Change of Toldos Aharon to Shomer Emunim
I changed the name Toldos Aharon to Shomer Emunim in the larger dynasties list. I did so because that change accurately reflects the fact that TA is an offshoot of the Chassidus started by R' Aharon Roth, Admur M'Shomer Emunim ztz''l. In sheer numbers, Toldos Aharon is the largest group of Chassidim that trace themselves to R' Aharon. However, it would be unrealistic to give the name "Shomer Emunim" a place only secondary to the more modern name "Toldos Aharon."

Furthermore, the article that was previously called Toldos Aharon really covered all three groups, Shomer Emunim, Toldos Aharon, and Toldos Avraham Yitzchak.

--Meshulam 19:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Shomrei Emunim is a separate group with the Rebbe in Bnei Brak. Toldos Aharon and Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok are both Yerushalmi Chassidus. They may be related by shoresh but they are now separate groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.125.2.98 (talk) 12:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

List of Hasidic dynasties (comment)
Satmar (from Satu Mare, Romania) Hasidic group has only 120,000 followers. Why in the "Dominant Hasidic groups (arranged by estimated size)" it’s listed first? Chabad Lubavitch (from Liubavichy, Belarus) group has 200,000 followers, so Ger ((from Góra Kalwaria, Poland) group has 200,000 followers as well.

Ira (Eliyahu)

Chabad Lubavitch (from Liubavichy, Belarus) group has about 200,000 followers. Ger (from Góra Kalwaria, Poland) group has about 200,000 followers as well. Satmar (from Satu Mare, Romania) group has only 120,000 followers. Why then in the "Dominant Hasidic groups (arranged by estimated size)" Satmar (from Satu Mare, Romania) Hasidic group is listed first?

Ira (Eliyahu) 09.05.06 5:26pm EST

 * These figues are nonsense. They do not have these numbers. Drop one zero from each group and you have the truer number! IZAK 07:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, Satmer and Chabad Lubavitch are about 200,000 and Ger about 120,00. --Shaul avrom 22:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Where do these figures come from? --Redaktor 00:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * They seem pulled out of a hat, to me. --Kotzker 21:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That explains it. To get them right they need to be pulled out of a shtraml. --Redaktor 22:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Dushinsky
I wonder if Dushinsky really belongs among the major Hasidic dynasties. As far as I know, they're quite a small group. Are they really much larger than Boyan, Sadigura, Modzitz, Nadvorna, Tolna, and dozens of others, all of which are listed as minor? Can anyone provide an estimated number of Dushinsky chasidim? --Kotzker 00:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually I doubt Boyan's status as small, they are pretty big (I took a look at their tish a few weeks ago, and it is sizable). Sadigura is pretty small. Dushinsky is probably slightly bigger then Boyan. --Chussid 15:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Does Dushinky's exist outside Yerusholayim (and maybe Bet Shemesh)? If not, they can hardly be considered major. --Redaktor 01:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I propose removing Dushinsky, Nadvorna and Stropkov from the 'Larger dynasties'.--Redaktor 17:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If Karlin, Chernobyl, Pupa, Rachmastrivka, Shomer Emunim & co, and Spinka also go, I agree.
 * Personally I would also argue to remove Chabad-Lubavitch from the list, since they aren't chassidim but kofrim and theirs is not a chassidishe kreis but a living example of Purim Torah, but that probably wouldn't make it due to the strength of the Chabad sect on Wikipedia. --Rabbeinu 18:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, let's see if we can get some agreement here. Is it agreed that the following are not 'large' and should go: Karlin, Chernobyl, Pupa, Rachmastrivka, Shomer Emunim & co, Spinka, Nadvorna and Stropkov?--Redaktor 16:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to removing Dushinsky, Nadvorna and Stropkov. But we do need to come up with a definition of large. Pupa, Karlin, and Rachmestrivka have quite significant followings, and the latter two are international.

 * Furthermore, I'm not sure large/small is the appropriate dividing line really. It's really hard to find authoritative sources on the numbers for each group. I would divide the list into those groups notable among Chasidic circles and the rebelech who just carry on the name but have little or no following. (Then again, deciding who's notable may prove just as difficult. Just putting out ideas...) --Kotzker 17:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, removing just Dushinsky, Nadvorna and Stropkov was my original suggestion. But I would like some sort of consensus.--Redaktor 20:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Noticed that subsequently.
 * I propose for large to mean a group with a main shul/headquarters and one or more satellite shuls/shtieblech. That's a concrete, mostly verifiable definition, and is less disposed to POV problems than numbers of adherents. Further, the list of smaller dynasties should be split between those extant and extinct.
 * I'll set this up, unless there are any objections.--Kotzker 21:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not too happy with that. At the moment the list is alphabetical, hence easy to use. If you split it up it will become much more difficult to navigate. Why not keep a single list, but use colour to indciate extant dynasties?--Redaktor 22:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a valid point. Thing is, I think it's important to distinguish between those that are small but notable from those that no one has heard of and are long extinct. Just because Dushinsky, Munkatch, Skulen, etc. are small doesn't mean they should be lumped with Ziechlyn, Bertcht, Chazanow, and Cziesanow. Also, despite some being smaller, it's still worth having them with extended leader/founder/location info, which is more difficult to do with the more obscure dynasties.
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kotzker (talk • contribs) 22:22, 11/June/07

So what happened to removing Karlin, Chernobyl, Pupa, Rachmastrivka, Shomer Emunim & Co, Spinka, Nadvorna and Stropkov? They are certainly much smaller than the other groups on the "large" grouping, & probably smaller than many of those in the "small" grouping. Also, there's a bit of duplication between the "small" and "other" listing which should probably be eliminated [Amshinov, Alexander for starters]. Anyone object if I start on that? Demblin 13:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Brisdovitz ?
Shtetlseeker gives 57 options, none of them obvious. Xx236 14:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I have no idea where Brizdovitz is; but there is someone in Boro Park who has a Shul and calls himself the Brizdovitzer Rebbe, so for all practical purposes, there is a Brizdovitzer Rebbe Itzse 17:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

 * a gite vokh, Itzse. What is his yichus? --Redaktor 18:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Hi Redakter; I don't know what his claim to Brizdovits is. I would suspect that he had a grandfather there. I think that if someone calls himself a Rebbe then he should be identified as such here, because the purpose of this article is for someone searching for information, to get it here. The newspapers call him "Ho'Admir M'Brizdovitz" so who am I to second guess. If we should question any Rebbe's legitimacy; then I think we can disqualify a good portion of them. Itzse 16:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 *  Of course you do have to bring WP:RS. Does the New York Times report on this Brizdovitzer Rebbe? Is he mentioned in scientific publications? If not, he doesn't exist.  --Rabbeinu 18:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

 * According to WP:RS you would need to remove most of the names here because the New York Times didn't report on them so they don't exist. Why should the NYT report on them, did they rob a bank? Serious, how do you think would the New York Times know if he is a Rebbe? They would simply ask, or if they are smart they will look him up in Wikipedia.

 * BTW I started boycotting the New York Times a long time ago because of its unfair and biased reporting about us Jews. For reliable news about Jewish topics, there are much better sources and there you'll find him. Itzse 20:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you ever learn in school what 'sarcasm' is? --Rabbeinu 21:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

For the record: Brizdovitz is Brozdowce/Brzozdowce, Galicia, now Berezdivtsi, see pl:Brzozdowce and Shtetl seeker (search one of the terms given, or you won't find it). The Yiddish version "Brizdivitz" is mentioned there (and on the Ukrainian Wikipedia). Ohole Shem, p.224 (the 1912 directory of Orthodox rabbis worldwide - the source of many of my town identifications) makes this clear, as the rabbi of "Brizdovits" is listed as Baruch, son of Meir, Rabin (an alternate spelling of Rubin) who is none other than the founder of the Brizdovitz dynasty mentioned here. Then the polish spelling of the town is given: Brzozdowce. Ratzd'mishukribo (talk) 12:07, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Lucy
Wrong link.Xx236 15:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Deleted Litchek (non-existent) --Redaktor 23:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He exists - I've seen him, his family name is Bernstein and he lives in Jerusalem. His wife is the Spinka (Kahana) Rebbe of Jerusalem's daughter. Definitely in the less-than-five-of-fifteen-Chasidim category. Though he named himself for a historic ancestor of his - "Reb Shaul of Litshik" - maybe he had a notable dynasty? I have never heard of him. Ratzd'mishukribo (talk) 12:13, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Should we list all Rebbes by name?
I'm putting this question out. Should we list all Rebbes by name? That means that for every dynasty if there are numerous Rebbes like Spinka; we would list all Spinka Rebbes in alphabetical order.

To me it sounds like a good idea; as it will enable someone to have all the Rebbes names at a glance; browse through them and zero in on what they are looking for. I also think that it's feasible because to my estimation there are approximately only 200 to 300 people who are called Rebbe. Itzse 18:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Definitely not in this article. Rebbes can be listed within a dynasty page. Alternatively, I think a "List of Hasidic Rebbes" (past and present) isn't a bad idea. (Along the lines of the Yiddish article: yi:ליסטע פון חסידישע אדמורי"ם). --Kotzker 19:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Definitely not in this article. That was why Redaktor cleaned this article up. I also think that a list of Rebbes past and present is unnecessary and unwieldy. Just duplicates what already is in each dynasty's article. --ChosidFrumBirth 00:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

 * There is a list of rebbes at Category:Hasidic rebbes. We need to ensure that every rebbe page is categorized. --Redaktor 00:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Ok; so it doesn't belong here which is a list of dynasties not Rebbes; but how would someone go about finding the Novominsker Rebbe or any other Rebbe who carries a title; has a Beth Medrash but isn't a Rebbe of a group of Chasidim? In the list under "Category:Hasidic rebbes" he won't be found because he doesn't head an established Chasidus. Maybe we should have a different category called "Living Hasidic Rebbes"? Itzse 18:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I can see some merit in Category: Living hasidic rebbes (by title). What I mean is that if we just categorize living rebbes we won't get very far, because person categories usually list personal names. What we seem to need is a category where the names entered are the names of the chasidus e.g. Alexandere, Belzer, Brisdovitser, Lelover, Novominsker, Pittsburgher, Slonimer etc. Does that make sense? If so, how do we make it work? --Redaktor 23:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Sounds too complicated and unnecessary. You can find the Novominsker by a) searching the word Novominsk, b) look in the article "Rebbe" which lists dynasties, or b) looking at the article on Chasidic dynasties, which also lists Novominsk.  I don't see why we need duplications or more lists. --ChosidFrumBirth 00:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Have you seen this? --Redaktor 23:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * And what happens if someone only knows his name as Rabbi Perlow but doesn't know that he is Novominsker Rebbe; how would he find him? Therefore I think that Redaktor's suggestion is the way to go. Itzse 23:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * You search under Perlow and lots of articles referencing him come up. I don't object to Redaktor's suggestion for living rebbes, just think it's not necessary and also means going through every article on every rebbeh to add the category so they come up in the list, and you also have long lists of many current rebbes for the same group, like Nadvorna. --ChosidFrumBirth 13:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 * You're right ChosidFrumBirth regarding Rabbi Perlow, because he is a world figure therefore he is mentioned in a few articles; not the least in Agudath Israel of America; but I searched for a more obscure figure like "Rabbi Meir Flintenstein" (Kopishnitzer Rebbe) and I came up with zilch; but Redaktors suggestion will solve this. As to multiple articles with overlapping information; it can only help as whoever encounters a missing name or dynasty can add it then and there; and someone will eventually update (synchronize) the other articles accordingly and before long I think we'll have the complete picture.

 * As there is no objection; can someone please start the article and I'll try to do my part. Thanks everybody for the discussion. Itzse 20:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I vote that we combine Category:Hasidic rebbes into this page. They overlap anyway. I never saw Category:Hasidic rebbes until referenced here. Whereas this current page has lots of links to it. Besides Category:Hasidic rebbes is not up-to-date. We can keep all the lists up to date if they are in one place. --Klezmer 08:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I am not against combining pages; it is very desirable thing. But it has to take into consideration not to eliminate the benefit of each particular page. Category:Hasidic rebbes is neatly organized in alphabetical order of names; but it's missing to which dynasty each Rebbe belongs. It's also a combination of living and non-living Rebbes; which makes it just an index of names. This article on the other hand lists dynasties; but doesn't make it easy to search by name. IMO it's not enough that WP has all the information; the entire picture needs to be seen at a glance where possible. As to the concern that has been voiced here of maintaining multiple pages which in essence has the same information; I think we under estimate ourselves; we're quite a capable bunch and it shouldn't be a big deal to synchronize & maintain multiple articles.

 * What has to be taken into consideration is that right now Wikipedia is in its infancy, and that all articles pertaining to Chasidus can be browsed through in one sitting. But in the hopefully not so distant future where every Rebbe since the dawn of Chasidus will have a complete article; we have to make sure that someone looking for a particular information; but doesn't exactly know what they're looking for; should be able to find it quickly with only a few clicks. Maybe someone can come up with an idea on how to do it; but if not, there is nothing wrong with experimenting with different ideas until the right one emerges. Itzse 18:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Klezmer—in what way is Category:Hasidic rebbes not up to date? The main problem is that most of the biographies of rebbes have not yet been written! Everyone contributing to this discussion is invited to start a few biographies. There is much work still to be done. --Redaktor 23:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right, Redaktor, we're pioneers here in this subject matter. That's why it's important to lay out the framework well. Regarding the deficiencies in Category:Hasidic rebbes, where are the other Chasidic sects found here in this current page? Where's the link to our beloved Apter Rov/Rebbe? That's why I believe we should simply merge the pages together and keep one list current. We could have it redirect here.--Klezmer 14:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't follow your argument, Klezmer. This article is a list dynasties, so there is no point looking for an individual rebbe here. The list or category of rebbes needs to be separate.--Redaktor 15:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Medzhibozh Dynasties - need to be removed
I removed it once, but it was reverted back. See the comment on this page for a reason why it should be the way I originally had it set up. There is no single Medzhibozh dynasty. It is all mixed up by various claims from various families.--Klezmer 03:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

That's just not factual. I didn't revert it back, but it should be this way. There was a clear inheritance from Rabbi Boruch as someone explained it on the Medzhibozh dynasty page. --ChosidFrumBirth 12:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

 * If what I'm saying is not factual, please provide the evidence, ChosidFrumBirth. I'm tired of being the only one here who gives original sources. Prove what you say is true! --Klezmer 15:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

 * This isn't a fight or competition. And it's not a debate over what is a dynasty or isn't.  It also isn't a discussion over the so-called scholars or what is proof.  The fact is there is a lineage and descendants of Rabbi Boruch who continued whatever it was that you say Boruch was or wasn't.  Period.  Apt isn't Medzhibozh and Medzhibozh isn't Apt, so give it a rest. --ChosidFrumBirth 17:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I'd like to see proof and I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. If you are promoting what you believe are facts, prove it! I can tell you this... Tzvi M. Rabinowicz, 1996, The Encyclopedia of Hasidism, Jason Aronson, provides no such evidence. Most researchers in this subject consider the Rabinowicz source a fair, even-handed treatment of the subject. Moreover, it was always considered one of the most complete sources on this type of material. What it does say is that the Zvill/Goldman Rabbinic family was descended from the Baal Shem Tov spiritual heritage through R. Yekhiel Mikhel, which gives it the Mezhbizh connection. However, none of the Goldman bios listed in Rabinowicz was born or lived in Medzhibozh. Including - R. Yaakov Yisroel of Zvil (born in Zvil according to Rabinowicz, p. 154! No surprise there.) The Zviller Dynasty is represented in the Chasidic Dynasty charts I provided on this page, so no need for R. Boruch's so-called dynasty. Also, see Zvil Dynasty page. There is no reference to R. Mordechai of Medzhibozh as the father of R. Yekhiel Mikhiel of Zvil. R. Mordechai is of Zvil by both Rabinowicz and the Zvil Dynasty page. No document that I am aware of shows that either one had ever lived in Medzhibozh. If what you say is true, I'd like to see the proof. No such documents I've seen about Medzhibozh mentions this. If so, you've stumbled onto something new. --Klezmer 04:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Can you please keep this in just one place. What you are saying means that the Medzhibozh dynasty doesn't exist and if so the whole article should be deleted.  that was already discussed and it was decided that it should stay.  there is good information there, and discussing whether it should be referred to as a dynasty or not or referenced elsewhere doesn't help so can't we just move on.  --ChosidFrumBirth 13:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Summary of dispute
There is a dispute about what qualifies as a Hasidic dynasty. This is particularly focused on whether or not R. Boruch of Medzhibozh left a "Medzhibozh Hasidic dynasty" or not. --Klezmer 03:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Statements from editors
ChasidFrumBirth claims that heresay evidence and evidence from Alfasi's web page is good enough evidence to claim that R. Boruch left a dynasty. Klezmer claims that multiple sources from key books (which he provided) have no such evidence and contradictory evidence. Klezmer further asks that someone provide better references, which so far no one has. ChasidFrumBirth and Klezmer has participated in more than 3 undos of each other's work. --Klezmer 03:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

 * 18:19, 5 February 2007 Klezmer (Talk | contribs) {Provided original list of dynasties - original work}
 * 00:28, 9 February 2007 ChosidFrumBirth (Talk | contribs) (→Spiritual Legacy from Besht){Added R. Boruch dynasty for the first time}
 * 14:46, 10 February 2007 Klezmer (Talk | contribs) m (→Spiritual Legacy from Besht - R. Boruch was very vain and did not leave a legacy. That opened the door for the Apter Rebbe to establish his dynasty in Medzhibozh.)
 * 23:47, 10 February 2007 ChosidFrumBirth (Talk | contribs) m (Revert == Please don't revert again. Rabbi Boruch may have been vain, but he left successors which continues today.)
 * 03:15, 21 February 2007 Klezmer (Talk | contribs) m (→Spiritual Legacy from Besht - Until ChosidFrumBirth provides proof that such a dynasty existed, I stand by my original list.)
 * 13:19, 21 February 2007 ChosidFrumBirth (Talk | contribs) m (←Undid revision 109725520 by Klezmer (talk))
 * 06:41, 23 February 2007 Klezmer (Talk | contribs) (←Undid revision 109805398 by ChosidFrumBirth (talk))
 * 14:30, 23 February 2007 ChosidFrumBirth (Talk | contribs) (←Undid revision 110267898 by Klezmer (talk) - restore factual information)
 * 20:36, 24 February 2007 Klezmer (Talk | contribs) (←Undid revision 110330308 by ChosidFrumBirth (The way I had it originally is factually correct. See Rabinowicz, 1996. Don't add a non-existent dyn))
 * 00:40, 25 February 2007 ChosidFrumBirth (Talk | contribs) (←Undid revision 110655209 by Klezmer (talk) Don't delete a hasidus that exists and is connected however you define dynasty)
 * 02:24, 25 February 2007 Klezmer (Talk | contribs) (←Undid revision 110709626 by ChosidFrumBirth (talkProve it FIRST, then it can stay. Wiki is based on facts.))
 * 02:25, 25 February 2007 ChosidFrumBirth (Talk | contribs) (Alfasi says it's a fact. It's not up to you to decide what's fact and what isnt.)

Which pages does this affect?
This dispute mainly affects three Wiki pages:
 * List of Hasidic dynasties
 * Baal Shem Tov
 * Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)

Also see the discussions located here for complete detailed statements by editors:
 * Talk:List of Hasidic dynasties
 * Talk:Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)

For the sake of this dispute, let's keep the discussion within this page as a central source. --Klezmer 03:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Comments
Just to clarify -- Klezmer provides references from works by academics who either were not aware or did not look into this dynasty or don't have a Hasidic background. First, just because it's not written somewhere doesn't mean it doesn't exist; second, there is in fact an existing dynasty that traces back, so if it's not written anywhere does that mean it's in dreamland; third, this is something I happen to have personal knowledge of as a Chernobler descendant and which I personally heard from rebbes who are related; fourth, I don't know anything about an Alfasi website -- I gave the reference of Sefer Meshivas Nefesh Yizhak, and also Alfasi's encylcopedia listing all the dynasties and rebbes etc. So how can Klezmer deny what is a) a fact and b) in two books, just because it isn't in some other books. We all went through this discussion originally when someone (not me I think) started the original Medzibohz dynasty article and the conclusion after all the debate was that it should be kept. How can Klezmer now come and try to eliminate it (not the article obviously, but reference to it on the other pages which talk about Rabbi Boruch etc. --ChosidFrumBirth 04:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Sheim USheiris by Grossman lists a 'Mezhbizh' dynasty (#38) comprising the Baal Shem Tov and his descendants including, for example, the Averbuchs of Mezhbizh. He also list a separate Apt-Meszhbizh dynasty (#8) of the Heshl family. --Redaktor 15:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree this is a valid source. However, it was written in 1943 and a tremendous amount of new information has emerged since then, including the opening up of the Russian archives. So you really have to take that into consideration when you evaluate the quality of these so-called facts, which I believe I have. --Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Regarding the statement that academics can be discounted because they don't have a Chasidic background, that's a completely outrageous comment. It clearly demonstrates the narrowmindedness on the part of ChosidFrumBirth in helping to resolve this dispute. One can't make such a statement when one doesn't know who these academics are. Some of them may in fact be Chasidic, but it is completely irrelevant to the process of getting neutral facts on the table - which is what Wiki is all about. --Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Regarding Sefer Meshivas Nefish Yizhak, you are going to have to clarify this. Give me an ISBN number and a page number. There are many sources titled Sefer Meshivas Nefish. I am not familiar with any that contains the claims mentioned above. --Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Regarding Alfasi's encyclopedia, please provide an ISBN number and a page number. I've done some extensive searching and can't find this reference. I question its value as being so definitive in your eyes. --Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Oral history should be enough, since that's what made up most of Hasidic dynasties until recently. However, in addition to what Redaktor brings, and in addition to Sefer Meshivas Nefesh Yitzhak and Alfasi's encylcopedia, there is also www.Rebbe.org, Sefer Zichron Meier by Rabbi Yehudo Meier Shapiro of Lublin, Sefer Toldos Anshei Shem (Part I - Toldos Admorim), edited by Rabbi Osher Rnad and Aron Moshe Greenblat, all of which name Rebbe Mordechai as the last "Admor MiMezhibuz", direct descendant of the Baal Shem Tov and R. Boruch, and father of Rebbe Yaakov Yisroel Korff Shlita.--ChosidFrumBirth 23:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Need to prove these references to me before I can accept your word for it. These are obscure references. Quote me an ISBN and a page number. --Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

PS -- Redaktor also makes a very good point that the "Medzhibozh Hasidic Dynasty" page seems overwhlemed with a huge section on Rabbi Bick who as you (Klezmer) point out was not Hasidic and was rov not rebbe and not the Hasidic Dynasty of Medzhibozh. --ChosidFrumBirth 23:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The question really is "What constitutes a chasidic dynasty?

I'll start off what I think the definition should be... I believe it represents (1) a lineage of thought and (2) followers of that brand of chasidism throughout time. I don't believe it necessarily means that the leader had children! The key is whether the children carried on the traditions of their direct ancestors. Thus, even though R. Levi Yitzhak of Berdichev had children and there are decendants of him alive today (some of which are Rabbis!), he didn't leave behind a legacy of followers in his specific brand of chasidism. Thus, I think most people here will agree that he left no dynasty even though he was an important figure in early chasidism.

Then you also have someone like R. Nachman of Bratslav, who also had children, but they didn't take on the mantle of leadership of his particular brand of chasidism. Yet the Braslavers survive today because R. Nachman's had followers who adhered to his legacy of thought. I think most would agree that this is a dynasty.

Now, back to the argument at hand regarding a supposed dynasty for R. Boruch. I'll concede that he had children. But the question is whether they carried on the traditions of the lineage R. Boruch's unique brand of chasidism. More importantly, did they carry with them followers of this brand throughout time? To me that's what makes a dynasty. So to me, when R. Boruch died, no one carried the brand onward with a continuity of followers. At least no one can conclusively provide evidence. And there is plenty of good documentation out there, so don't hide behind heresay or weak evidence. The thought legacy ended with R. Boruch. Therefore, the "Dynasty of R. Boruch of Mezhbizh" fails the definition of dynasty.

Next, you get into this whole mess of what constitutes the name "Medzhibozh" tagged to a dynasty name. I have old documents that clearly refers to the Medzhibozh brand of chasidism linked to the Apter Rebbe. Documents tag it the Zinkover or Mezhbizher chasids depending upon the town the master of the legacy resided at the time. The Apter dynasty had followers throughout time and numerous documents show they were clearly the dominant chasidic sect in Medzhibozh from 1813 until the 1920s. I think everyone will agree the Apters were a dynasty. Were they the "Medzhibozh Dynasty" carrying on the continuity of traditions from the Baal Shem Tov? Then you also have the Bicks, who were also called a Mezhibozher Dynasty, even though they weren't chasidic (though later generations of Bick rabbis married into chasidic families, so the lines are blurred). Clearly in the older documentation, the town tag is strictly about where the leading rabbi lived at the time. If you use this criteria, clearly the Apter dynasty and the Bick dynasty have a more legitimate claim to the town name of Medzhibozh then anyone descended from R. Boruch - where apparently there is no corraborating evidence that they continued to live in the town.

I don't really care whether there is a web or wiki page on it or not. I think we have to get down to basics and agreed upon - What's the appropriate definition of dynasty? Then we can move on and correct the pages with a crystal-clear understanding. --Klezmer 16:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

So now you want to quibble over a technical definition of dynasty (which according to your suggestion would eliminate 75% of those now listed), and your real agenda seems that you want Medzhibozh exclusively only for the Bicks who according to you weren't even Hasidic. Doesn't make sense. --ChosidFrumBirth 18:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Such nastiness from ChosidFrumBirth here and on other pages such as Talk:Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty) is completely uncalled for. Is this what his rebbe teaches him? Does his rebbe teach him to be rude and unreasonable to people who don't agree with him? That's apparently his agenda. I have no agenda other than the wiki truth. I have nothing whatever to do with the Bicks, I simply have provided documentary evidence about them, that's all. It might be hard to accept, but that's what it is. I have documentary evidence about lots of other people as well that I willing shared in wiki and no one seemed to want to beat up on me for it as they have here. All I'm trying to do is to provide the truth from corroborating evidence in public sources that aren't obscure or self-serving. I believe wholeheartedly that my sources provide a neutral definition, which is what wiki is all about.

 * And I'm asking a simple question, to which no one seems able or willing to provide an answer: "What is the definition of a dynasty?". I provided a proposed answer. But they apparently are afraid to answer this question because they don't like the real answer - the truth. Once this problem is resolved, it should be obvious what needs to be done from this point on. --Klezmer 04:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry -- didn't think I was being nasti -- but you don't answer when I leave comments on your talk page, and you ignore everyone else's opinion and just continue to revert to your own version over and over without any compromise --that doesn't sound like reasonable discussion to me -- and your calling us "Hasidic fanatics" whose making the personal attacks here?

I wasn't being rude or unreasonable -- I explained that a lot of Hasidic facts are unpublished and part of oral tradition, and on top of that I actually found several published books that contained those facts -- and yet you continued to ignore all that and revert based upon one or two sources that you had that don't even really contradict those facts but just don't include them. Then you call all of us "Hasidic fanatics" for disagreeing with you, while you continue to unilaterally revert to your own point of view.

We're all just interested in getting the facts out there -- don't take it personally.

As for whats a dynasty? Dynasty isn't a scientific term -- it's a general word for various hasidic traditions. For example, when there is a rebbe that can be a dynasty even if there is an interruption, even if there isn't another rebbe for a generation or two or three or even a hundred years later if a desendent of the rebbe continues or becomes rebbe. In hasidic terms a dynasty is really a family, just like a rebistriveh is a rebbe's family. Look at Bratslav, or Chabad, or Boyan, or Belz. Lots of hasidic dynastsies skipped a generation or more in one form or an other -- doesn't mean their not dynasties, doesn't mean its not a dynasty even if it ended but especially if what the first rebbe started exists today in any form at all. --ChosidFrumBirth 13:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

 * OK, so do you agree or disagree with my definition? (it represents (1) a lineage of thought and (2) followers of that brand of chasidism throughout time) --Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Let's examine the sources, folks. ChosidFrumBirth is quoting [a] Alfasi's Encyclopedia, [b] Sefer Meshivas Nefesh Yitzhak, [c] unsourced Chasid oral histories. Source [a] is really not provided as a reference in any Wiki article I can find nor have I been able to locate it on my own. Source [b] is confusing because there are lots of sources with similar names and I'm unable to find any passage in the ones I have that make reference to these dynasties. Source [c] is an unacceptable primary source from a scholarly / academic point of view.--Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Redaktor quotes [d] Grossman, Sheim USheiris (1943), which is a valid source, but old. I make the claim that newer information supercedes it. Remember, this work was published before the end of WWII before organizations existed to categorize this information (such as Yad Vashem, Diaspora Museum, etc.). Also, a substantial body of new raw material exists after the opening of the Soviet archives in the 1990s.--Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Klezmer quotes [e] Chapin & Weinstock, The Road from Letichev ISBN 0-595-00666-3 (2000), [f] Rabinowicz, The Encyclopedia of Hasidism ISBN 1-56821-123-6 (1996), [g] Rosman, Founder of Hasidism, ISBN 0-520-20191-4 (1996), [h] Finkel, The Great Chasidic Masters, ISBN 1-56821-939-3 (1992). All of the above are publicly-available sources. None has a particular self-serving agenda and they are independent points of view. Yet all 4 references are completely consistent with regard to evidence (or lack thereof) of Medzhibozh rabbinic dynasties. These references do not support ChosidFrumBirth nor Redaktor's point of view. --Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

In addition Klezmer provided 3 other references that are not as easy to obtain that seems to demonstrate that the Baal Shem Tov's house was unoccupied after he died, casting doubt on the unreferenced story that descendents of Rabbi Boruch lived there (seemingly legitimizing their dynastic claim). These references were [i] Testimony of Dora Zichroni, who lived in Medzhibozh 1910-21, [j] Memoirs of Abraham Rechtman, an ethnographer who studied Medzhibozh in 1914 (Rechtman, 1958, Yidishe etnografye un folklor, YIVO, Buenos Aries), and [k] Yad Vashem Holocaust testimony by Holocaust-survivor Moishe Einhorn.--Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Klezmer further scoured [l] every Polish and Russian census, tax rolls and maps he has of Medzhibozh unable to find a single name from a descendent of Rabbi Boruch. [m] Grave inventory of the Medzhibozh Jewish Cemetery does not list any of these people, either. [n] No Jewish Pichas book entries for these people exist, either.--Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The point is that Klezmer has provided a preponderance of collaborative evidence that no one else seems able or willing to provide. The preponderance of evidence points to the end of the Baal Shem Tov - Rabbi Boruch dynasty (however you want to define it) after the death of Rabbi Boruch. Rabbi Boruch may have left descendents, but they must have been obscure individuals indeed. Certainly no continuity of thought or followers carried on beyond Rabbi Boruch. Nor apparently did it carry on in the town of Medzhibozh. Therefore, I believe the dynasty (by any definition) ends there.--Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

But Medzhibozh was home to several other dynasties of rabbis, notably the Apter Rebbe line and the Bick family. The Apter Rebbe dynasty was called the Medzhibozh (Zinkover) dynasty, too. And both these dynasties seem to have a more legitimate claim to using the name of the Medzhibozh in their dynastic names. So it gets very confusing how we wish to deal with this in Wiki. --Klezmer 17:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, we'll try this one more time -- Klezmer, I did not insult you or historians, and about being Hasidic it's only because there are things that are just generally known in rebbe and hasidic circles as much as the sun rises in the east that are fact without any documents and you also can't ignore oral history and published works even if they don't have ISBN numbers. Nobody objects to your contribution of material on the Apter and the Bicks (although they should go in the right places as Redaktor points out), but don't try to wipe out an entire dynasty just because you or others weren't aware of it, and there are plenty of other dynasties listed in wiki with the same issues -- wipe them out too? Alfasi and other historians and writers obviously knew about it, and I can assure you that all the rebbes from then to now knew about it. Yad Vashem and others aren't experts in Hasidus and don't have the last say just because they recently discovered it and are trying to document it. If an older book says there was a dynasty how can "newer information" supersede it. If it existed when the first book says then it didn't just disappear retroactively. You quote books and testimony of people from 1910 or 1914 after Rabbi Mordechai's son left for Zvil and he died. This isn't a trial where you have to have preponderance of evidence or prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Obviously things after the Baal Shem and Boruch were obscure and were overshadowed by the Baal Shem and Boruch -- it doesn't mean that nobody carried on or didn't exist. The records from back then aren't complete, how do you know there weren't any descendants of Boruch if nobody has a complete list of names, and there are lots of confusions and duplications in names, people went into hiding and moved around and then returned, people were buried in different places for different reasons, and there is plenty of unknown and guessing. But there is certainly enough independent evidence and fact and personal testimony and knowledge and books around, non of it self-serving, to establish without doubt that there is a dynasty today that traces back to Boruch. Given that, I don't think you can justify deleting. --ChosidFrumBirth 21:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Preponderance of evidence is important here, especially if it's independent and it corraborates other evidence. That's what the Wiki policy of neutrality is all about. So if I get the gist of what you are saying, the information that circulates as oral histories within the Chasidic community carries more weight than any other type of evidence? Absurd.

 * Let me share with you some evidence I'm looking at right now. 1739 Polish tax census Medzhibozh, house #95, occupied by Moses (don't know who this is). Same for 1740 census. 1742, house #95, occupied by the Baal Shem Tov (yes, it actually says that in Polish, I'm not making this up. BTW, he didn't have to pay any taxes!). Same for 1758 and 1760 census - Baal Shem Tov is the occupant. In 1763 census, it is no longer occupied by the Baal Shem Tov, but by someone by the name of Hershel (Baal Shem Tov's son or adopted son maybe?). From that point on in every census, the house is occupied by the Kahal, while every other house surrounding it has a named occupant. That means it was a community resource. It also means no one lived there! Once the Russians took control, the census was less frequent, but the results are the same. There was an 1795 census. There was an 1826 and 1835 census. There was a "synagogue list" in 1853, which listed all the places of worship and every practicing rabbi in town. There was an 1861 census, an 1872 and 1898 census, 1905 voter registration list (which listed all the rabbis). House #95 is listed in several of these lists. The results are the same, no one was occupying the house! Moreover, none of these lists contain the names the descendents of Rabbi Boruch in any house in the town. There is a possibility that when they say they lived in the Baal Shem Tov's house, they really meant Rabbi Boruch's house. But I can't figure out which one that would have been because we are missing lists from Rabbi Boruch's period.

 * Next, I'm looking at two Pinchas (minutes) books, recorded in the Russian archives. These are written in Yiddish and in Russian. One is the Pinchas of the Mishna Society of the Apter Rebbe. It lists members from the mid 1800s until about 1890. Interesting that there is a Pinchas for the Apter Rebbe Chasidim, but no other Pinchas for any other so-called dynasty. The other is the Pinchas of the Khevrah Kadisha which records all the deaths in the community from about 1830 to about 1890. No names listed from R. Boruch's descendents in either one. BTW, this is corroborated by the next piece of evidence, they correspond very nicely...

 * Now I'm looking at the inventory of the Jewish Cemetery in Medzhibozh. This was produced by the Jewish University of St. Petersburg in their ethnographic expeditions in the mid 1990s. Burials are recorded in this cemetery from 1555 through to the early 1900s. No one is buried in this cemetery by any of the names that you list as R. Boruch's descendents. The Baal Shem Tov is buried here. So is Rabbi Boruch, but that's it. The point is that this is pretty critical evidence that you can't dismiss so easily. And it was only discovered in the past 15 years. Much as you are trying to, you can't run from these facts.

 * Maybe the Chasidic circles you seem to run in want to believe so badly that these people had a direct connection that they spun stories about them living in the Baal Shem Tov's house, for instance. This is not unheard of in Chasidic circles. Don't they try to make claims that certain rebbes are direct descendents of King David when no real documentary evidence of this exists in our time? Point is, unless it is independent and collaborated by other evidence, you can't always believe what you hear. --Klezmer 22:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

This debate is straying far from the main points. There are many hasidic dynasty articles which have not yet been written. It is not clear to me why the details of the descendants of Rabbi Boruch of Mezhbizh need to be analyzed in fine detail on this talk page. One of the many missing dynasties is the Apt dynasty (or Apt-Mezhbizh dynasty if you like). If nobody else writes that article I shall do it myself one day. I don't see the need for an acrimonious debate with multiple ding-dong reverts.--Redaktor 23:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

 * It's analyzed here because that is where the discussion is. ChosidFrumBirth keeps undoing my edit. There's a reason I removed the statement "Reb Mordechai, was the last Mezibuz Rebbe to inherit and hold court in the Baal Shem Tov's home and Beis Medrash in Medzhiboz." It is completely unsupported by huge number of facts. That's why the minutia of the argument here. No one is straying from the main points. It gets to the brass tacks of the whole business where ChosidFrumBirth claims he knows better because he hears this bubbameisis circulating in his circles, while I'm simply stating the preponderance of the evidence. It gets to the heart of what is or is not a dynasty, which apparently no one wants to address. --Klezmer 02:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I have just noticed that an article has appeared at Apta (Hasidic dynasty). Actually should be Apt; the final 'a' is a quirk of Yiddish spelling, also found in Belz etc.--Redaktor 00:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Why is there no article on Rabbi Boruch of Medzhybizh? If he left a dynasty or he didn't; still an article on him is needed. Itzse 22:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I just started the article on Rabbi Boruch of Medzhybizh based on information found in the other Medzhybizh articles. Itzse 22:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Country identification
A number of towns in this article are identified by country. In some cases two countries are shown—then and now. I don't see much merit in this information. Does it really matter whether a town was in Poland, Lithuania, Turkey, Russia or Ukraine? All this information is available in full detail on the town page, which should be linked from here. Country names are too variable, with changes in jurisdiction which have no bearing on this topic. I propose that we delete all country names from this article?--Redaktor 14:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty) at Mediation Cabal
A long-simmering editorial dispute between and  over how to deal with information about certain Hasidic topics has reached the Mediation Cabal. Please see and provide any helpful input at Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-29 Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty). Thank you, IZAK 16:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

International
(copied here from my [Rabbeinu's] talk page) Rabbeinu: you wrote: 'international', if you require that, we should delete Ger... only Chabad/Satmar/Belz/Bobov would remain. What on earth are you talking about. Ger is represented in Europe, USA (about 20 shtiblekh) and Australia. you don't get much more international than that. Likewise Vizhnitz is international. But if you don't like inernational, please come up with a better criterion.--Redaktor 23:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm not so very familiar with the situation in America; never been there. I'm only familiar with Eretz Yisroel and Europe. As far as I know, about 90% of Ger is located in Eretz Yisroel. As far as I know, their kehillos in chutz lo'oretz are negligible. Maybe I am wrong. As I said: I'm only familiar with Eretz Yisroel and Europe, first-hand. I do know that Dushinsky has shuls in London and in Boro Park (and Bnei Brak, RBS-B and Jerusalem). For an estimate on size, I can't offer much other than this video someone made of the Purim tish there . I'd estimate the number of families at at least 500 worldwide. (As us yidden all know, the numbers sometimes cited regarding Satmar and Lubavitch are huge exaggerations.) In fact, based on my own observations (I [love] OR), Dushinsky is probably bigger than Shomer Emunim, Toldos Aharon and Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok. Definitely bigger than Boyan, Sadigura, Stropkov, Chernobyl.
 * By the way, Redaktor, may I ask which kreis you affiliate with? (I'm just curious.) --Rabbeinu 23:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Woodstocke Hasidim??
I can find no references for such a Hasidut. Is this a hoax? Also, the way the list is designed, a Hasidut belongs only in one column. If it is the alphabetized list, it does not belong in the "smaller dynasties" list. Yoninah (talk) 19:08, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Breslov, not Breslev
Contrary to the idiot Israeli highjackers of the Ukranian (Russian) Chassidus called BRESLOV, the name is BRESLOV, not Breslev. This is clear from not only the mesorah but from the vowelization (nikud) in Lashon Hakodesh (not Israeli "Hebrew," you stupid idiots!)

This has to be fixed all over wikipedia. Just because some idiot Israelis and lost Sefaradim decided to highjack one of the oldest Chassidic traditions doesn't make them right. The Chassidus and the spelling of BRESLOV both preexisted modern Israeli "Hebrew" and it is inappropriate to transliterate the original word BRESLOV into English by way of modern Israeli "Hebrew."

The Rebbe (Rebbe Nachman of BRESLOV) warned the faithful Jews against the evil, heretical Zionists at the start of their evil movement. It is unacceptable for the Israeli highjackers to try to pervert the name of the town made holy by the Rebbe and the mesirus nefesh (self sacrifice) of the BRESLOVER Chassidim. The Rebbe's name is Nachman, don't try to transliterate it like an Arab or Sefaradi or idiot Israeli. You have no connection to the Rebbe!

My family is BRESLOV back to the beginning. We lived in that area of Russia and we know how to pronounce it.77.125.2.98 (talk) 12:40, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Lead section
I revered this edit by User: to move the lead to a new article. This makes no sense. The article Hasidic Judaism already covers the subject. The present lead is a common introduction for list-articles of this type, and is also necessary to highlight Hasidic groups that do or do not fall into the category of "dynasty". Yoninah (talk) 17:14, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

InfoBox
Hi everyone. I would like to see an infobox at each Hasidic dynasties with the main info such as the founder the date founded the locations and so on, I just Don't know how to make it. Thanks a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by קוק ווינקל (talk • contribs) 20:44, 28/Mar/14

Amount of follower
An added column for the amount of followers for each dynasty, would add a lot to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.183.87.30 (talk) 18:56, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The only problem is there are no definitive numbers. Yoninah (talk) 20:12, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Now we're here
An IP has made extensive edits (e.g. ) to this page indicating country changes. I think this is incredibly confusing and unnecessary. The city names are linked; if someone wants to know what country they're in, in 2017, they can click on the city. It's obvious that these Chassiduts all started in prewar Europe, before WWI and WW2 borders. Yoninah (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I have reverted the edits. Yoninah (talk) 19:40, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Vizhnitz and Viznitz
Shouldn't Vizhnitz be separated in two - Vizhnitz Bnei Brak and Vizhnitz Monsey? --תנא קמא (talk) 12:13, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Zenta
the link Zenta is to the town, which says nothing about a Hassidut.--2607:FEA8:D5DF:F3D9:C87:9B39:6009:E606 (talk) 01:41, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * . Thanks, -- -- -- 06:21, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Current rebbe
The list claims to mention only the founder in one column and the current or last Rebbe in another. Nevertheless I sometimes see several or even many names in the "Current (or last) Rebbe" column", e.g. Vizhnitz, Boston, Spinka, Zvhil. By the way, Zvhil has a new rebbe. Nadvorna simply has "several", while I think we should list them by name and town, as is the custom for Nadvorna, analogously to Novominsk. Debresser (talk) 12:10, 17 November 2022 (UTC)


text:
West Melbourne, Victoria

West Melbourne is an inner-city suburb in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 2 km north-west of the Melbourne central business district, located within the City of Melbourne local government area. West Melbourne recorded a population of 8,025 at the.

Located adjacent to the CBD, West Melbourne is bounded by Victoria Street and the Sunbury/Werribee railway lines in the north, Footscray Road, the Moonee Ponds Creek; and by La Trobe Street in the south. Peel Street and the Flagstaff Gardens help form the eastern boundary, with the western boundary defined by the Maribyrnong River and Coode Island.

Being originally largely an industrial area, a significant portion of West Melbourne is occupied by the Port of Melbourne, the Dynon Railway Yards and the Melbourne Markets. These include the Wholesale Fruit and Vegetable and Fish Markets, as well as the National Flower Centre. It also contains an increasing number of residential and commercial properties, consisting of a mixture of Victorian single and double storey terrace houses and converted warehouses at the north-west corner of the Melbourne CBD. It is also adjacent to the Queen Victoria Market, located on the east of Peel Street and to the south of Victoria Street.

History
West Melbourne Post Office opened on 1 March 1937 and was replaced by the Queen Vic Market Newsagency office in 1990, which closed in 1996.

Population
In the, there were 5,515 people in West Melbourne. 42.3% of people were born in Australia. The most common countries of birth were China 7.4%, India 4.9%, South Korea 4.5%, Malaysia 3.7% and New Zealand 2.6%. 45.4% of people only spoke English at home. Other languages spoken at home included Mandarin 10.0%, Korean 4.3%, Cantonese 3.5% and Spanish 2.0%. The most common response for religion was No Religion at 44.8%.

Transport

The North Melbourne railway station is actually located in West Melbourne, opposite the Railway Hotel on Ireland Street.

 * 220 Sunshine - Gardenvale passes along Dudley Street operated by Kinetic Melbourne
 * 401 North Melbourne – University of Melbourne via Royal Melbourne Hospital, University of Melbourne (Monday to Friday), operated by Transit Systems Victoria

A number of tram routes run along the periphery of the suburb, along Victoria Street:
 * Route 30: St Vincent's Plaza – Docklands
 * Route 57: West Maribyrnong – Flinders Street station
 * Route 58: Toorak – West Coburg
 * City Circle

Churches

 * West Melbourne Baptist
 * St Mary Star of the Sea, West Melbourne Catholic
 * St James Old Cathedral (Melbourne's oldest cathedral, built in 1842)
 * St Mary's Anglican

Entertainment venue

 * Festival Hall

Parks and gardens

 * Flagstaff Gardens
 * The Triangle Park (bounded by King Street, Chetwynd Street, Eades Place)
 * The Pocket Park (bounded by William, Howard and Rosslyn Streets)

North of the railway lines
The area bounded by Railway Parade and Spencer Street has undergone significant change since 2000. While the region has always been mixed industry and residential, the industrial flavour of the area has diminished rapidly, as West Melbourne's population increases. In Dryburgh, Laurens, Ireland, Stanley and Adderley Streets, the majority of the warehouses have been converted to townhouse developments. The development nearby of the Docklands has had a significant impact on the perceived prestige of the area, and it is rapidly losing its status as one of the most affordable precincts with such proximity to the CBD.

Shopping
West Melbourne lays claim to the southern side of Victoria Street, meaning that a small range of restaurants and shops lie within its boundaries. Otherwise it has no shopping area of its own. However the Direct Factory Outlet development on Spencer Street in the CBD, and Errol Street, North Melbourne are just outside the boundary of West Melbourne.

Coode Island
Coode Island is a locality in West Melbourne's industrial zone. It is unusual in that although it is a locality of West Melbourne, with the creation of Melbourne Docklands and the Bolte Bridge, the area has become completely disconnected from the main area of the suburb.

It is the site of Victoria's major petrochemical storage facility. The area is named after engineer John Coode and retains the "Island" name, despite no longer being an island.

title: West Melbourne, Victoria


text:
User talk:Wahiba

Proposed deletion of Magazine production
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Magazine production, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

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May 2009
Welcome to Wikipedia. The recent edit you made to the page Siltec has been reverted, as it appears to be unconstructive. Use the sandbox for testing; if you believe the edit was constructive, please ensure that you provide an informative edit summary. You may also wish to read the introduction to editing. Thank you. AndrewrpTally-ho! 20:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did with this edit to the page User talk:Andrewrp. Such edits constitute vandalism and are reverted. Please do not continue to make unconstructive edits to pages; use the sandbox for testing. Thank you. AndrewrpTally-ho! 21:01, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Please do not vandalize pages, as you did with this edit to Siltec. If you continue to do so, you will be blocked from editing.  J mundo 21:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC) - it was tidying up.

 * User Wahiba (the sole author) blanked the page. This is commonly interpreted as a request for deletion per db-g7.  — Athaenara  ✉  22:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Tidying Up
There was nothing on it. It needs deleting. It was a hint for someone to do it. There does not seem to be a mechanism for the originator of a a dud page to remove it.

Proposed deletion of Model Monorails

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May 2010
Please stop. Continuing to remove maintenance templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to BASIC, without resolving the problem that the template refers to may be considered vandalism. Further edits of this type may result in your being blocked from editing Wikipedia. | Uncle Milty  |  talk  |  14:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of "Highway Trailers"

The article "Highway Trailers" has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
 * Does not show notability, and I can't find coverage in reliable sources - see also WP:CORP

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Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.  Chzz  ► 08:09, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of "Highway Trailers"

A tag has been placed on "Highway Trailers" requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. The Elves Of Dunsimore (talk) 08:33, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Multiwheeler

A tag has been placed on Multiwheeler requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. The Elves Of Dunsimore (talk) 08:39, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:52, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Nomination of Monorail modelling for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Monorail modelling is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Monorail modelling until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Mccapra (talk) 22:15, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

title: User talk:Wahiba


text:
User talk:JerryW

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! -- Aphaea *  08:43, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:JerryW


text: User talk:62.0.244.1

title: User talk:62.0.244.1