text:
Talk:Aniline

Usage section (dye) cleanup
I have redirected the article Aniline dye to this article, since the entire amount of material to be merged (quoted below) was quite brief; the last sentence is misleading if not actually completely incorrect.

 * "Aniline is a chemical that is a by product of burning elmo. The first synthetic dye (mauve, developed in 1856) was a coal tar product and contained the chemical aniline but the term "aniline" has been used to include other chemical type dyes. Today the term "aniline" is used mainly to differentiate natural dyes from the synthetic dyes."

The usage section needs a copyedit and cleanup; I haven't got time right now, but I might get around to it if nobody else does.

See also the notes regarding aniline-based dyestuffs here. --TenOfAllTrades 21:46, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * This looks like a section from the 1911 Britannica: it is not accurate today! Physchim62 00:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

 * This article looks like its been cleaned up now, right? It's still listed on the chem portal front page as needing cleaning up user:austinbooth 20:49, 13 January 2005

Solubility in water?
It says miscible, that can't be right, can it?

 * You're right; it's wrong. This site says 3.6 g/100 mL at 20 °C.  The other solubility entries (miscible in ethanol and acetone) are correct, according to my CRC Handbook. Good catch. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:58, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

products of combustion
Does anyone know the products of combustion, and products of incomplete combustion for aniline?
 * Complete combustion will produce water, carbon dioxide and nitrogen dioxide. Ammonia is quoted here as a possible product of incomplete combustion, although I would still think that it is the nitrogen dioxide which would be the highest risk, not to mention unburnt aniline vapor. Physchim62 (talk) 13:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Safety Data will have to go
Wiki is not a repository for safety data, the references should suffice. propose to axe this section V8rik 19:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, section is a goner, links should be enough (or find it yourself in Chemical sources). --Dirk Beetstra T  C 21:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

You two should look at hydrazine, which I have started to revise slightly.--Smokefoot 23:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Which safety data are you talking about? The presentation seems fairly standard to me. Physchim62 (talk) 14:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I see it now, yes, that sort of section should go: it could be placed on the data page if anyone really wanted to, but not in the article. Links to commercial MSDS pose the same sort of problem as Chemical sources, although there is a dedicated section on the data page if anyone ever used it! Physchim62 (talk) 14:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It should just not be here, bit too much of a risk giving wrong data. Same goes indeed for single MSDS links. They are biased. On Chemical sources at least one can choose one .. if ever it would get to functionality (if it gets used is then a second question). But I think it is a good plan to keep savery data to a minimum, and preferably referenced. --Dirk Beetstra T C 17:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

making black?
what is the best way to make aniline black we are using potassium chlorate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.30.96.107 (talk) 06:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Needs a redirect
At Coal dye, Coal tar dye, and probably others as well. ~ender 2008-10-05 5:52:AM MST
 * Done. -- Ed (Edgar181) 15:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Rocket fuel
Aniline is hypergolic with RFNA (red fuming nitric acid) and the combination was used as a rocket fuel for JATO during WWII (Ignition, John Clark, p.21). Worth adding to the uses? Richard Gadsden (talk) 17:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, I would say so. Although an historical niche use, and while data on the current usage is of course important, minor uses in past times are of interest and use to non-technical lay readers. That, I suggest, is the very purpose of an encyclopaedia. To help the less-well informed. Wikipedia isn't a technical reference book for chemical engineers. It has to service the needs of others too.
 * I suggest something like this.
 * Aniline was used as a fuel with a RFNA oxidiser in the MGM-5 Corporal Surface-to-surface tactical missile fielded in considerable numbers by both the US Army and the British Army, principally in West Germany, and carried a W-7 atomic warhead; the first US missile to be nuclear-armed. It was broadly comparable in design and purpose with the Soviet Scud-A missile of similar vintage. Corporal was an important development as the first attempt by the United States in replacement of long-range artillery to suit the post-WW2 era. Very much a learning exercise, and was succeeded by a series of solid-fuelled missiles, easier and less hazardous for troops to handle. Considerable numbers were deployed and test fired by 10 US Army battalions and 2 British battalions, eight of them in Germany.
 * George.Hutchinson (talk) 18:01, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

It is also used as fuel in the Aerobee rocket's second stage engine.
 * About 2,000,000,000 kg of aniline are produced annually, according to the Ullmann Encyclopedia. So many niche apps that merely use a million or two kg will do not get a full discussion.--Smokefoot (talk) 18:14, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Usage stats are only a part of the picture Smokefoot. Usage history is important too. Those who deny history an airing are doomed to repeat it's mistakes. Esp when the "million or two kg" had the power to bring civilisation as we know it to an end.
 * George.Hutchinson (talk) 14:45, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Right. If we relied on usage stats, a lot of pharma etc would be dismissed as minor contributors to civilization because not many tons were produced compared to bulk apps.  It's a judgement call, and I am not the cop here.  I do know from experience that some editors seem to over-rate (my term) the significance of things that blow up.  It's a guy thing.  --Smokefoot (talk) 14:54, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

 * "A guy thing". Wonderful insult Smokefoot. How is it that when a contributor loses an arguement they feel a need to resort to a crude insult? Is that a guy thing too? George.Hutchinson

Copyright problem removed
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Suspected TYPO (or something like that)
The name of the section Aniline of this article contains the preposition "at". That word does not sound right to me. I don't think it would ever be used like that (in a context like this), by someone (e.g. a native speaker) who had a good knowledge of correct English language usage.

I think it should be changed -- probably to [something like] OR
 * "Reactions involving nitrogen"
 * "Reactions with substances containing nitrogen".

(Right?)

Any comments? --Mike Schwartz (talk) 00:50, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

 * It refers to the moiety, where the reaction takes place, i.e. the nitrogen atom in the aniline molecule. --Leyo 18:15, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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To add to article
To add to the header of this article: the pronunciation of "aniline." 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:47, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Physical characteristics
It is an oily liquid with pungent, musty fishy odour. It is colorless with a bluish fluorescence when freshly distilled and gets photo-oxidised on exposure to air and light becoming yellowish to brownish. -Shubjt 02:35, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * very good quote. But its colorless.--Smokefoot (talk) 03:54, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Aniline


text:
Brežice

Brežice (Rann ) is a town in eastern Slovenia in the Lower Sava Valley, near the Croatian border. It is the seat of the Municipality of Brežice. It lies in the center of the Brežice Plain (Brežiško polje), which is part of the larger Krka Flat (Krška ravan). The area was traditionally divided between Lower Styria (territory on the left bank of the Sava River) and Lower Carniola (territory on the right bank of the Sava River). The entire municipality is now included in the Lower Sava Statistical Region.

Brežice prides itself on a rich historical and cultural heritage. The Lower Sava Valley Museum (Posavski muzej Brežice), housed in Brežice Castle, contains archaeological and ethnological exhibits, exhibits on the Croatian and Slovenian peasant revolt, and a modern history collection. It is one of the largest regional museums in the country. A more recent landmark addition to the town is its water tower, as well as the double arches of the 527 m long iron bridge, which spans the Sava and Krka rivers.

History
Celtic graves from the 2nd century BC have been discovered in Brežice, and it has been continuously settled since prehistoric times. A Slavic settlement called Gradišče was established at the site soon after the arrival of the Slovenes in the area. The castle in Brežice was first mentioned in 1249. The current structure dates to 1529.

Brežice was affected by Ottoman raids several times during the 15th and 16th centuries. Peasant uprisings took place during the 16th century; in 1515 peasants attacked the castle in Brežice, burned it, and killed the nobility sheltering in it. The new castle was able to withstand the peasant uprising of 1573.

The first school was established in Brežice in 1668, taught by Franciscan friars at the friary. From 1774 to 1780 instruction took place at Baron Moscon's residence, and from 1780 to 1820 at the rectory. A separate school building was built in 1875.

A general hospital was established in Brežice in 1872. Its facilities were expanded in 1889.

During the Second World War, Brežice and the adjacent countryside to the north and west were known as the Rann Triangle (Ranner Dreieck), an area intended for the resettlement of Gottschee Germans that had been evicted from the Gottschee region in the territory annexed by Italy.

Brežice expanded after the Second World War by annexing the neighboring villages of Brezina (Bresina), Črnč (Tschernz), Šentlenart (Sankt Leonhard), Trnje (Ternje), and Zakot (Sakot).

Churches
Saint Lawrence's Church in Brežice was first mentioned in written sources in the 12th century. It stood on the bank of the Sava (now an old side channel). It and the adjacent cemetery were heavily damaged by flooding in 1781, which also changed the course of the river, and the current church was built in the town center in 1782. Brežice has been the seat of a parish since 1641. Another church in the town, built in the second half of the 17th century, is dedicated to Saint Roch.

Brežice Castle
Brežice Castle is the dominant feature of the town, standing above the left bank of the Sava. It is now a museum housing several collections and exhibitions. In the castle chapel there is an altar by Luka Mislej.

Water Tower
The Brežice Water Tower is the most prominent structure in the town, and is regarded as its symbol. Built in 1914, it was a key part of the town's water supply system until it was replaced by a new reservoir in 1972, after which it had an auxiliary role until 1983.

Brežice Upper Secondary School
The Brežice Upper Secondary School (Gimnazija Brežice) opened in 1945, is built on the site of a Franciscan friary. The school was renovated in 1966, when an extension was also added. 690 students attend the school.

Brežice Faculty of Tourism
The Faculty of Tourism was founded in December 2009 and is part of the University of Maribor, Slovenia's second-largest university. It is located in the center of the town on the main street, Cesta prvih borcev. In the 2012–2013 academic year it enrolled the first class of students in two three-year undergraduate programs in tourism: a vocational program and a bachelor's program. The faculty will also offer a master's program in tourism starting in the 2014–2015 academic year.

Notable people
Notable people that were born or lived in Brežice include:

 * Jurij Rovan (born 1975), pole vaulter
 * Ivo Benkovič (1875–?), politician
 * Albin Bregar (?–1894), religious writer
 * Vojko Černelč (born 1934), editor and journalist
 * Mirjan Damaška (born 1931), jurist
 * Vanda Gerlovič (1925–2001), opera singer
 * Anton Gvajc (1865–1935), painter
 * Vera Horvat, (1906–?), painter
 * Primož Kozmus (born 1979), Olympic and world hammer throw champion
 * Anton Krošl (1905–1945), historian
 * Jože Krošl (1894–1978), theologian and sociologist
 * Franc Kruljc (1873–1954), theologian
 * Dušan Kuščer (1920–), geologist
 * Boris Lipužič (1930–), geographer
 * Janez Mencinger (1838–1912), writer, translator, and lawyer
 * Avgust Munda (1886–1971), ichthyologist

 * Tomaž Petrovič (born 1979), football manager
 * Leopold Poljanec (1872–1944), natural history expert
 * Ljudmila Poljanec (1874–1948), poet
 * Miloš Poljanšek (born 1923), Slavic studies specialist
 * Karel Přibil (1877–1944), education expert and translator
 * Georgius de Rain (Jurij iz Brežic) (14th century – 1416), religious writer
 * Radoslav Razlag (1826–1880), poet and politician
 * Željko Ražnatović (1952–2000), Serb paramilitary leader, also known as "Arkan"
 * Lavoslav Schwentner (1865–1952), publisher
 * Marjan Sidaritsch (1895–1925), agricultural geographer
 * Boris Sikošek (born 1922), geologist and tectonics expert
 * Gvidon Srebre (1839–1926), lawyer and politician
 * Franjo Stiplovšek (1898–1963), painter and graphic artist
 * Viktor Tiller (1878–1961), local historian and geographer
 * Andrej Urek (1836–1904), poet
 * Jaka Žorga (1888–1942), politician

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Brežice


text:
Talk:Romanian revolution/Archive 2

This archive contains all of the talk related to a now-resolved dispute.

Disputed
I am not so much necessarily saying that this is false, as that recent information that may or may not be true, and is certainly not obviously true, was added by User:Ratza without decent citation.

 * 1) Is there documentation of the involvement of (presumably Romanian Orthodox) "religious romanian students" in the initial protests on behalf of László Tőkés? If true, this is fascinating, but I've never heard it before and would like to see documentation.
 * 2) The entire paragraph beginning "A group of conspiring generals in Securitate used the opportunity to launch a coup in Bucharest. The coup, prepared since 1982..." strikes me merely as one of dozens, if not hundreds, of unprovable theories of what was going on behind the scenes that week. It is here without even citation of who claims this. As I suggested before on Talk:Nicolae Ceausescu, I believe theories like this belong in a separate article with one link from here, much as (for example) 9/11 domestic conspiracy theory gets a separate article.
 * 3) "the book of Col. Dumitru Burlan" without even the name of the book is hardly a citation.

I could go on, but what is needed here is attention from a solid scholar who knows this history a lot better than I do. I have no idea what parts of the recent additions are true, what are rumors, how seriously to take the stories from Lumea Magazin, etc., so I am just flagging this. If no one else takes this up, I guess I will start doing some serious research, but I am at a liability because my Romanian-language skills are merely decent, not expert; similarly my knowledge of this history. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:26, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

I can see why the accuracy of this article is disputed. The problem is that nobody (except the presumed) conspirators knows quite what happened and how it was planned. I think the article at present concentrates too much on the details of events in Bucharest and not enough on the theories about what lay behind it. Was there a conspiracy or not? Not only in Romania, but also in the West, nearly everybody who knows even a little about the Romanian 'revolution' thinks there was a conspiracy and that Iliescu was involved in it. Whether the conspiracy had been planned since 1982 is, I think, more controversial.

Incidentally, I'd dispute the statement that Iliescu became the first democratically elected president of Romania in 1990. The elections were rigged. It was precisely to stop the student protests about the hijacking of the 'revolution' that Iliescu called in the miners to break up the protests. Simon d 02:34, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

21 december meeting turns to riot
''[Nica Leon claimed that, instead of a firework, something else made them flee: whilst Ceauşescu was stumbling on his words, Nica placed himself near a microphone and shouted: "Jos Ceauşescu!" "Trăiască Timişoara!" "Huă!" ("Down with Ceauşescu", "Long Live Timişoara" and "Boo!"]'' - Nica Leon is considered a kind of an Impostor. if somebody watches the tv record of the 21 december 1989 meeting, will see there was the sound of a bomb(firework) and a sudden movement from the direction of Athenee Palace that got people into chaos. the TV records of 21 december meeting were recently shown by OTV television. Criztu 10:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * What you say sounds likely enough to me. Can you cite anyone saying something like this? Or do you think we should just delete the passage? Or what? -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * I can't cite sources speaking of N.L. being an impostor... i can hardly find anybody talking about N.L. at all. Can you cite where is it proven/aknowledged that N.L. set the crowd in motion ? i think if names are to be given in the articles about romanian history, they have to be at least as significant as Balcescu, Avram Iancu, Vladimirescu, heroes of romanian history. i don't agree notoriety should be offered to a man that writes a book(?)/gives interviews(?) in wich he claims he set crowds in motion by shouting "Boo" :) Criztu 09:43, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I didn't add this, I just edited it into good English. I have no sources at all, although it is not the first time I heard the name. I'd be glad to see it gone. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:51, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
 * i didn't say you added this. the name of N.L. is as famous as Dumitru Dinca and Dan Iosif, revolutionaries that have an association of the revolutionaries Criztu 11:14, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I would like to point out that this is roughly my view of Burlan, whom you seem by a few of your remarks to consider a good source. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:51, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
 * there are many authors writing about the december 89 events, i think Burlan should be mentioned on a list of romanian authors about december 89 revolution/coup d'etat, and not as a source Criztu 11:14, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

---
 * Securitate General Victor Stanculescu, the main advisor of Ceausescu, the mastermind of the coup d'etat of 1989, the first defence minister after the Revolution, used to be (during communism) the only man to handle the payments of Arab countries for the secret commerce with weapons (according to the book of Col. Dumitru Burlan). Prior to the coup, Ceausescu was in an international trip to Iran country and this was the moment when millions of dollars paid by Arabs for weapons were entering Romania in cash. Stanculescu was in charge of handling these money into banks and paying the weapons factories. Stanculescu chose the moment of the coup as the moment when he had a large amount of cash on him, to secure the capitalist continuation of his life. Immediately after the coup, the unpaid factories of weapons made fast bankrupcy. Soon, the revolutionaries captured the TV stations.

 * this paragraph deals with Stanculescu's life and trajectory, instead of the revolution. perhaps an article on who was Stanculescu could clarify the claim that he was a mastermind -- Criztu 11:08, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Trying to resolve the dispute
As of 20:15, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC) no formal dispute remains. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:15, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to work on trying to resolve the disputes here. I believe the following is a reasonably comprehensive list of my issues with the article. This is a lot of issues, enough that I assume it is clear to one and all why I currently consider this article enough of a mess to merit the dispute tag. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:19, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * it's a mess I agree... Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Issues apparently resolved

 * Let's start with one sentence that is simply confusing. The Bucharest section begins, "The event was largely mediated by the popular Voice of America radio and by the Timişoara students returning home for Christmas holidays." Does this mean to say "From the point of view of Bucharesteans, knowledge of the events of Timişoara was largely mediated by the popular Voice of America radio and by the Timişoara students returning home for Christmas holidays"? Or does it mean something else? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:20, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
 * the events in Timisoara weren't present in romanian media that's for sure, rest to find out how "largely" did Europa Libera and Vocea Americii mediated them, about "students going home for holidays".. there was this University in Timisoara, with a lot of students from allover the country, so it may have been possible, but i'd expect that no one to have been allowed to exit Timisoara after 17 december 1989. Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I copyedited that sentence to read "The events in Timişoara were widely reported by the popular Voice of America radio and by students returning home for Christmas holidays." "Mediated", by which I think the original author meant "Reported in the media", is usually understood as "resolved (as in a conflict) by a disinterested third party."  JHCC 19:50, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * It can also mean that knowledge was available only through an intermediary (e.g. "a mediated experience", but I agree that here that more obscure meaning was not likely to leap to the mind of the reader. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:27, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * This issue seems to be resolved -- Jmabel | Talk 07:54, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

 * "One view is that in Romania a scenario similar to that in the rest of the Eastern bloc Communist countries was attempted, but failed." This is unclear: "scenario" is somewhat ambiguous here, but more importantly the verb "attempted" has no subject, so it is not at all clear who is said to have been attempting this scenario. Could someone please try to expand on this and say what you mean? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:49, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * I wrote this, excuse my english, by "attempted" I meant "to try/to put into practice". There was a "scenario" by which the communist leaders of East Germany and Bulgaria resigned: The Communist Polithic Commitee gathered, the Chief of State gave dispositions, the Ministers of Army and Internal Affairs objected and asked the Chief of State to resign. Gorbachiov and URSS Polithic Bureau would be the "authors" ...while the trialed members of CPEX(Polithical Executive Commitee) claimed(testified) Ceausescu had offered to resign Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * See next section, this looks like more than can be taken up in the middle of a bullet list. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:54, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
 * This issue seems to be resolved to the best of our ability at this time. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:48, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

 * We need to separate out which things are clearly factual from which were said by single, possibly self-serving, sources. I think that very early in the situation we should summarize the areas of difference, then go into a single narrative, placing in sequence (with clear attribution) the various unprovable claims. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:49, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * I tried taking a shot at this, but I've mostly backed off. The current article simply contains unsourced conflicting versions. I can't sort them out. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:24, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * With the aid of various answers here, this seems to be under way, but not complete. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:33, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * With reference to the 17 December CPEx meeting, what is known from the minutes, what is merely claims made in sworn testimony not backed by the written record at the time, what (if anything) comes from other sources? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:56, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * yes, the minutes containing Ceausescu's words of resignation were declared "missing" by the Prosecution, so the testimony of Cpex members are not backed by available documents Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * That doesn't answer my question. I guess I'll start another section below to take up this question in detail. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:21, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
 * This issue seems to be resolved to the best of our ability at this time, but it is short on sourcing. Anyway, separately discussed below. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:48, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

 * Our article says Ceauşescu returned from Iran 20 December. Elsewhere, I'm sure I've read 19 December. Does someone have a source on this? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:04, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2230& - Ceausescu returned from Iran on the evening of 20 december 1989 Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * This issue seems to be resolved -- Jmabel | Talk 08:24, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

 * The part that starts, "...a group of conspiring generals in Securitate used the opportunity to launch a coup": who is the source on this? Burlan? Whoever it is, we need to say. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:09, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * The material here seems vague and/or contradictory as to exactly when and where Ceauşescu made speeches in his final days in power.
 * There is a reference to a "televised speech", but no date is given. Was this a speech made only on television, perhaps on the evening of December 20? Or is this the same speech as the "public speech" then referred to? (We've got all of this stuff claiming to know what happened in back rooms, but we can't even get the basic narrative clear!) -- Jmabel | Talk 08:28, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * http://www.jurnalul.ro/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=18132 http://www.cafeneaua.com/node/view/614  Ceausescu held a "televised speech" from a TV Studio inside the CC(CEntral Commitee) Building at 19:00 on 20 december 1989 Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * This issue seems to be resolved -- Jmabel | Talk 08:31, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

 * "...Ceauşescu, having hastened back from Iran, made a public speech from the balcony of his palace, the Casa Poporului in Bucharest, to condemn the uprising of Timişoara. As he addressed the crowd from the balcony of Central Commitee building..." Quite a feat, given that the two are about a kilometer apart. Am I correct in understanding that there were two speeches, one on the December 21 from the balcony of the Casa Poporului, the other the next day from the (rather lower) balcony of the Central Commitee building? And if so, would someone please help sort out which events go with which speech, it is very confused right now. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:24, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * made a public speech from the balcony of his palace, the Casa Poporului this is B.S. . The Casa Poporului wasn't made operational until years after 1989. Ceausescu spoke on 21 december 1989 to the meeting gathered in front of CC building, and hid inside CC building after the meeting turn to riot. the morning of the next day 22 december 1989 he fled by helicopter from the CC building rooftop Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * This issue seems to be resolved -- Jmabel | Talk 07:33, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)

 * "Bucharest airport": does this mean Otopeni? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:39, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * the episode of army recruits(airborn troops -parasutisti) shooting other army units occured at Otopeni Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * This issue seems to be resolved -- Jmabel | Talk 07:39, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)

 * "The whole sympathy Romania gained from the outside world with the Revolution was lost during the days of 13-15 June 1990." Several things here
 * I assume this is a reference to the mineriad, but this will be lost on the average English-language reader.
 * yes, 13-15 june is the Mineriada Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I am not absolutely sure what "the whole sympathy" is supposed to mean (it's not correct English; I'm guessing "all of the sympathy").
 * in romanian "intreaga simpatie"(whole sympathy) is sinonimous to "toata simpatia"(all of the sympathy) Criztu
 * Assuming I have understood correctly, then the statement is simply wrong. The government may have lost a great deal of sympathy, but there is not particular reason to think the country did; in any event, to say that even the government lost all of the world's sympathy is inevitably an exaggeration.
 * I think the mineriad does deserve mention here (as probably do the student demonstrations that occasioned it), but this quick, coy, half-mention is not appropriate. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:03, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * well, Romanian Revolution of 1989 gained huge positive media notoriety for Romania, while the 13-15 episode(an assault on the police HQ was instigated/staged by occult networks, resulting in consequent street-fighting and calling in the Miners to Bucharest) (unsigned, but apparently Criztu 01:42, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC))
 * I presume that "occult" here means "clandestine" or "secret"; in English, "occult" means "dealing with the supernatural or with esoteric practices". -- Jmabel | Talk 08:13, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * This issue seems to be resolved -- Jmabel | Talk 08:13, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

 * We give conflicting versions of Milea's death — suicide, assasinated by Ceauşescu, killed by the plot under the guise of a suicide — without giving any indication as to what source claims each of these things. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:36, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Milea was announced "dead by suicide" by the communist authorities. to this day no official documents changed the "cause of death", the rest are debates wether he was assasinated/executed Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, but if we are going to give anything other than the official version, we should cite someone who makes these other claims. Otherwise, every idle rumor can make its way into the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:17, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * There's an article from Jurnalul National on this. Bogdan | Talk 14:47, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * This issue seems to be resolved, but someone may want to check my work. Having only moderate Romanian, that article was very tough going for me. I hope I have correctly summarized what is salient here. Someone else might want to mine that article for a Wikipedia article on Vasile Milea. Also, if anyone has the date of original publication of that article in Jurnalul Naţional, please add that information to the references section. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:33, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

 * "...detected by other sources..." makes almost no sense. Can someone try paraphrasing (either in English or Romanian)? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:37, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Somewhere along the way this was edited out, so presumably a dead issue. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:56, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * The link on the "Au trecut 15 ani..." article does not go anywhere relevant.
 * Resolved...: I've found a more relevant link. The article itself is not on line, unfortunately. ...but... Does anyone have any idea how I might find the article? Not exactly likely that I can turn up a back issue of a Romanian magazine in Seattle. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:13, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

 * "In a case discussed on Romanian TV in 1989..." So that would be within days of the event. I see no reason to doubt this, but it's not exactly a verifiable citation. Does anyone have an additional source for this? Or at least (I know this is unlikely after 15 years unless this has been recently rebroadcast) specifics on when it was discussed on TV? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:43, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * What hapened was the following: the national TV station "informed" romanians about the course of the "revolution" ... a sort of a "news report". the "revolution" went on well after Ceausescu fled the CC building, until at least after his execution on 25 december 1989. "Advices" were given to the population, such as "don't drink water, we are informed that the terorists poisoned the water supplies of Bucharest", or "terorist are sniping from block x on street x, don't show yourselfs in the windows" or "the commanders of the military garrison x, prepare for an imminent terrorist attack, we are informed terorists in sporting clothes are heading towards you", etc. etc. Criztu 19:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Fine, but utterly unrelated to the passage I'm questioning. I'll quote at greater length: It's the passage that begins "In a case discussed on Romanian TV in 1989, a garrison of Securitate-affiliated soldiers (they were draftees in 18-month service related to Securitate) received orders to go and defend a city against Ceauşescu's terrorists..."
 * And, on that same passage, "...defend a city..." What city? If we can't say, this is pretty dubious, little better than urban legend. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:45, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * It's been 7 weeks, no one has responded, I have cut the following. "In a case discussed on Romanian TV in 1989, a garrison of Securitate-affiliated soldiers (they were draftees in 18-month service related to Securitate) received orders to go and defend a city against Ceauşescu's terrorists (that were believed at that time to be a disobedient faction of the Securitate, since the Securitate openly fraternized with the revolution), while in the city it was announced that the Securitate soldiers are coming to attack the regular garrison. Hundreds of people volunteered to fight against the expected Securitate. In that particular case, the chief of the Securitate garrison felt that something was wrong and refused to enter the city." As far as I am concerned, this removal resolves this issue. If no one responds within 48 hours, I will move this to the list of resolved issues. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:07, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * Apparently resolved -- Jmabel | Talk 20:15, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * The link "The Politicians and the revolution of 1989" appears to be just to someone's personal web site. If I go up a level in the directory structure, it says, "What do YOU want here ???? DICK HEAD I'll take you to the right place, don't try look in here, is not for you." Sorry if my quoting that offends anyone: it offended me plenty to run across it when trying to get context for the document (which has no indication of authorship). It does not exactly suggest the sort of source one trusts for an encyclopedia. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:15, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * It's been 7 weeks, no one has responded, I have cut the reference that I consider unacceptable. For whatever it is worth here it is: Politicienii şi revolutia din 1989 "The Politicians and the revolution of 1989" (in Romanian). If no one responds within 48 hours, I will move this to the list of resolved issues. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:35, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * Apparently resolved -- Jmabel | Talk 20:15, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

Remaining issues of dispute
'''As of 20:15, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC) no formal dispute remains. These few issues were never properly addressed.''' -- Jmabel | Talk 20:15, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Citation: In all cases, citation to something from a periodical that happens also to be on a web site should make clear the date etc. of original publication, not just provide a link. That is, these should be cited like normal periodical references, with the link being effectively supplementary to a correct bibliographical citation. - Jmabel | Talk 09:15, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Something is weird about the English-language text of the first two external references. Dumitru Burlan wasn't claiming to be Ceauşescu's double, he was his bodyguard, right? S
 * Since the first link just goes to the site of Adevarul, not to any particular articles, this is very hard to sort out. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:15, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Competing narratives
Right now we have a sentence, "There are several conflicting views on the events in Bucharest that led to the fall of Ceauşescu in 1989," that I think should be the beginning of a paragraph summarizing the main competing narratives of what may have occurred in December 1989. Criztu, can you tell me if you believe the following would be accurate, and if not what would you change? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:54, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

 * There are several conflicting views on the events in Bucharest that led to the fall of Ceauşescu in 1989. One view is that a portion of the Romanian Communist Party CPEx (Political Executive Council) tried and failed to bring about a scenario similar to that in the rest of the Eastern bloc Communist countries, where the Communist leadership would resign en masse, allowing a new government to come about peacefully. Another view is that a group of officers successfully conspired against Ceauşescu. The latter view is buttressed by a series of interviews given 2003–2004 by former Securitate Lieutenant Colonel Dumitru Burlan, Ceauşescu's long-time bodyguard. The two theories are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
 * one thing appears to be certain: in november Ceausescu visited Gorbaciov whom asked him to resign, so Ceausescu was prepared for such a scenario to occur. I seen a documentary showing video recording sequences of the Trial of CPEx members in which Niculescu-Mizil and Dinca, both members of CPEx, declared that Ceausescu offered his resignation on 17 december when two members of CPEx or State Ministers refused to obey him during the CPEx meeting, but I forgot who, and i couldn't find who those two were yet, i found only the names of Oprea and Dascalescu who asked him not to resign. Criztu 01:42, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * From what i know, if a group of officers is succesfully conspiring against a Head of State, they should logically install themselves in his place, otherwise any former secret services officer can claim he conspired agains the President :) Criztu 01:42, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If we can agree to that, or some variant thereupon, then we can go on from there. And might there be other "master narratives" that deserve the same level of presentation? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:54, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
 * anyway I don't think there is a clear and final official romanian version of what happened in december 1989 yet, so we can't aim to be more informed than the romanian historians, who still have to finish documenting the december 1989 chapter. so there will be further corrections to this article :) Criztu 01:42, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Certainly there is no one consensus version of the events, but that doesn't mean we can't evenhandedly and clearly lay out the competing narratives. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:11, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

I believe that the scene-setting paragraph is now basically OK. I won't be surprised if it changes further, but I think we can count it as removed from the dispute.
 * (I notice I forgot to sign this remark from a few weeks back.) Jmabel | Talk 20:39, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

17 December CPEx meeting
I'm trying to sort out what is verified by minutes vs. what was merely claimed by defendants on trial. Are all of the following statements correct? If not, where am I deviating from what is known? The current article is very confusing here, and a lot of this is conjecture, but we need to get it all correct and clear. Also, can we cite any sources about this meeting? It's not clear offhand which of our listed references, if any, pertain to this.

 * The 17 December CPEx meeting occurred.
 * there was a 17 december CPEx meeting. Ceausescu left to Iran on 18th, after he was assured the situation in Timisoara will be resolved by the time he returns Criztu 00:10, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * A stenograma of the meeting existed.
 * there was a stenograma(minute) of the meeting. It was the official procedure Criztu 00:10, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * The stenograma, as presented at the trial, was incomplete.
 * It was unavailable and finaly was found, but there were more versions of it Paul Niculescu-Mizil imi demonstra recent ca stenograma din decembrie 1989 a dezbaterilor din CPEX unde s-a pus problema atitudinii fata de miscarile de strada abia incepute, s-a dat publicitatii in mai multe variante, dovada ca s-a “lucrat” pe ea – in ce scopuri? [...] EUGEN FLORESCU senator 2003 1 Criztu 00:10, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * It is clear that this was not a matter of incomplete notes being taken at the time of the meeting: a page or pages were clearly missing.
 * as alleged by Niculescu-Mizil, trialed as a member of the CPEx; his request that the Prosecution to consult the Page of the Stenograma of the CPEx meeting where "Ceausescu bursted into asking the CPEx members to find another Leader if they don't agree with him, at which moment a few other members of CPEx pleaded Ceausescu not to resign" the Prosecution claimed the page was not found Criztu 00:10, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * The existing portion of the stenograma records that two of the members of CPEx disagreed with Ceauşescu's intent to quash the Timişoara uprising (side question: is it clear who these were?)
 * I can't find reference to who those members were

 * Ceauşescu's response is missing from the stenograma.
 * Former members of CPEx who were put on trial (again, names would be nice) testified, with no material evidence, that Ceauşescu offered his resignation, asking the members of CPEx to elect another leader.
 * a few CPEx members put on trial: Nici unul dintre cei 24 de apropiaþi ai lui Nicolae Ceauºescu care au fost inculpaþi în celebrul Dosar CPEx nu se mai aflã de mult timp în închisoare. Dumitru Popescu, Paul Niculescu Mizil, ªtefan Andrei, Silviu Curticeanu, Mihai Gere, Ion Stoian, Ioan Toma, Lina Ciobanu, Ana Mureºan, Susãnica Gîdea, Nicolae Constantin, Gheorghe Oprea, Constantin Olteanu, Gheorghe Panã, Constantin Radu ºi Iosif Szasz au beneficiat de clemenþa fostului preºedinte Ion Iliescu, fiind graþiaþi în perioada 1994-1996. Alþii, mai puþin norocoºi, au murit înainte sã beneficieze de bunãvoinþa fostului ºef al statului. Aceºtia au fost: Ioan Totu, Ludovic Fazekaº, Ion Radu, Miu Dobrescu ºi Gheorghe David. Constantin Dãscãlescu ºi Gogu Rãdulescu au murit înainte de a fi trimiºi în judecatã, iar Ion Ursu nici nu a mai trebuit sã beneficieze de graþiere, pentru cã nu a fost niciodatã trimis în judecatã. 2 Criztu 03:03, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * It was further asserted at the trial, but there is no record in the stenograma, that other members of CPEx asked Ceauşescu not to resign.
 * as the trialed members of the CPEx testified, at least Niculescu-Mizil, and i seen a recorded sequence of Dinca testifying the same thing. Dinca and other 3 (three) members were trialed separately. I'm not sure what offices they held, or if they were CPEx members Criztu 00:10, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * It was further asserted at the trial, but there is no record in the stenograma, that those "other members" also urged Ceauşescu to sack the two who opposed his decisions.

And a further question:
 * Was anyone apparently sacked at this time? If so, whom? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:21, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

Since no one is answering this, I have used my best understanding. Citation on this would be extremely valuable to verify the points above. It would not astound me if our article as it stands is wrong on some point here, and I am sure a good reference could make it clearer. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:52, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

I could find a link to the stenograma of the hasty trial of Ceausescu, but no trace of the text of the Stenograma containing Ceausescu's words of resignation at the CPEx meeting in 17th december Criztu 00:16, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Seems like we are pretty much in agreement on what is known and what happened. Could you have a look again at what we now say about this meeting in the article & let me know if you think I got anything wrong? Thanks. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:05, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

Attempted escape, execution
Critzu, I've copy edited your recent addition. Three questions:
 * cri Z tu :) it is like Christ (Cristos in romanian), but following the dacian linguistic rules :p Cristu evolves into CriZtu (there still are Dacians in our days you know ... a few hundred Devans declared themselves "dacians" at the 2002 census :) )Criztu 22:33, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Sorry, as you see above I usually get it right but so many Romanians use tz for ţ that it turns into a finger macro for me. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * Am I correct in assuming that Bobu and Poestelnicu (sic) are Emil Bobu and Tudor Postelnicu?
 * yes

 * "the aerial space of Romania being declared by the army under interdiction for airunits" doesn't make sense, mainly because "airunits" is not an English word. Do you simply mean "aircraft" or something else.
 * sorry for my english, i'm romanian :"> ; indeed i meant aircrafts Criztu 21:31, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Hey, it's a lot better than my Romanian. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:52, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

 * All of this looks correct to me, but given the level of detail you presumably have a source; can I ask you to cite it? Much easier now than someone trying to reconstruct it later. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:07, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)
 * mmm... Ceausescu couple left by Helicopter together with E.Bobu and T.Postelnicu, the helicopte's pilot was named Malutan(died later misteriously in an "aircraft accident"); they stationed at Snagov briefly, and were abandoned near Targovishte, being grounded by Army flying interdiction, this is well known, i'll search for online sources, www.Jurnalul.ro Investigation series on the RO Revolution would be a good site to verify all this

the "Ceausescu fled by helicopter with an aid pointing a pistol to the pilot's head" is simply hillarious :0) Criztu 21:31, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

100 lei
Currently in the article: "His miscomprehension of the events and incapacity to handle the situation were further demonstrated when he promised to raise the salaries of workers by 100 Lei (about 4 US dollars at the time) and praised the achievements of the Socialist Revolution when a social revolution was taking shape right in front of him." Besides what seems to me to be excessive POV in the first phrase (which I leave it to someone else to fix), this is unclear. 100 lei per month? 100 lei per year? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:45, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

The part that follow "and praised the..." could be interpreted. But the story of 100 lei is true. In Romania the wages were and still are considered in per month. So, Ceausescu promised a 100 lei raise (at an average wage of 3000 or so) and also a raise of child allocation from 100 lei to 110 lei. He idea that the pissed off people would go home happy with a few % raise just enraged the people. And is wasn't the problem of money per se, but the fact that you couldn't find the products.MihaiC 13:04, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * oc, so what Ceausescu said, when he saw the people were not applauding as expected was basically "the monthly salary will be increased by 100 lei, and kept repeating (paraphrase/quote from memory): "we achieved high levels of development, the working class in romania has did great things, and will stand united defending the ideals of the socialist revolution". he was captured, and on his chair he recited from the "Internationala" socialist song. he was sentenced to death, and recited again from the "Socialist Anthem"(Internationala Socialista" -- Criztu 21:16, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dispute resolved?
As far as I am concerned, this article is no longer disputed, and I have removed the dispute tag. If no one reopens these issues in the next 48 hours, I will archive a great deal of what is above, since it mostly pertained to that dispute. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:34, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Romanian revolution/Archive 2


text: User talk:82.35.247.5

title: User talk:82.35.247.5


text: User talk:69.3.223.231

title: User talk:69.3.223.231


text:
Compact sport utility vehicle

A compact sport utility vehicle or compact SUV is a class of small sport utility vehicles that is larger than mini SUVs, but smaller than mid-size SUVs. However, there is no official definition of the size or dimensions for this market segment. Moreover, some manufacturers have marketed the same model name on different sized vehicles over time. The most common distinction between versions of crossover automobiles and compact-sized SUVs is that the first is based on a car-based unibody platform, while an SUV uses the unibody with welded-in ladder frame or body-on-frame chassis commonly used on trucks. However, manufacturers and common usage has blurred the two terms. Many recent vehicles labelled as compact SUVs are technically compact crossovers and are built on the platform of a compact/C-segment passenger car, while some models may be based on a mid-size car (D-segment) or a B-segment platform.

The modern compact SUV market segment began in 1983. According to a Car and Driver review in 2019, the compact crossover and SUV market segment is popular because the vehicles "are right-sized, right-priced, and blend carlike refinement with a touch of utility."

United States

Small-sized utility-type vehicles have been available since the advent of the first automobiles. The modern use of the "compact sport utility" category can be traced in the United States marketplace to the 1982-1994 Chevrolet S-10 Blazer and the 1984-1990 Ford Bronco II because they are considered compact-sized SUVs that were built on a compact truck chassis. They were marketed alongside the Chevrolet K5 Blazer and Ford Bronco full-size 4x4 vehicles. The compact two-door 1983 Chevrolet S-10 Blazer featured four-wheel drive with a four-cylinder engine as standard and Ford brought out the similar Bronco II model. Both were body-on-frame designs based on each automaker's small pickup trucks, the Chevrolet S-10 and Ford Ranger respectively. The general dimensions, drive train, and cab details were identical to those of the compact truck with differences in the interior only aft of the doors. Both were station wagon-like vehicles with seating for four adults and an enclosed cargo area with a rear hatchback.

American Motors made the full-sized Jeep Wagoneer (SJ) SUV using a truck chassis, but developed a completely new and slim unibody Jeep Cherokee (XJ) line of two- and four-door compact sport wagons that were marketed starting in late 1983. These are often considered the first compact American four-door sport utility vehicles. While the competing SUVs were adaptations of compact pickup trucks, Jeep did not have one, so they designed an SUV first; starting with a four-door version and featuring a very strong, lightweight unibody construction like most passenger cars, as well as with a lightweight "link/coil" suspension design that was praised by the automotive press for its superior ride, performance, and handling. The original Jeep XJ combined a passenger car comfort with a rugged chassis for ease of driving in difficult conditions, and established the modern SUV market segment. Automobile magazine called it a "masterpiece" of automotive design with room for five passengers and their cargo.

According to Bob Lutz, an executive at several car companies, American Motors (AMC) "invented an all-new automotive segment—the compact sport utility vehicle" with the original compact Jeep Cherokee two- and four-door models. The compact Cherokee's design, appearance, and sales popularity spawned imitators as other automakers noticed that the Jeep XJ models began replacing regular cars. Compact SUVs have become an alternative to the minivans for families who need cargo space. While almost unchanged since its introduction, Cherokee XJ production continued through 2005 in China, and was one of the best-selling compact SUVs in the world. There were over 2.8 million Jeep XJs built in the U.S. between 1984 and 2001. According to a 1995 review by the American Automobile Association, AMC's "clever marketing helped create the present demand for compact sport-utility vehicles."

Japan
The Japanese 1988 Suzuki Vitara is also considered to be a compact SUV.

title: Compact sport utility vehicle


text:
Claudio Caniggia

Claudio Paul Caniggia (born 9 January 1967) is an Argentine former professional footballer who played as forward or winger. Caniggia played 50 times for the Argentina national team. He appeared in three World Cups, and was a member of both rival clubs River Plate and Boca Juniors.

At the 1990 FIFA World Cup, Caniggia scored two goals to help Argentina reach the final but was suspended for the final against West Germany.

Caniggia also scored two goals at the 1994 FIFA World Cup in a first-round match against Nigeria.

As well as appearing for River Plate and Boca Juniors, his other clubs include Atalanta, Benfica, Dundee and Rangers. Throughout his playing career, he played for clubs in Argentina, Italy, Portugal, Scotland and Qatar.

Club career
At club level, Caniggia played for River Plate (1985–88), Hellas Verona (1988–89), Atalanta (1989–92 and 1999–2000), Roma (1992–93), S.L. Benfica (1994–95), Boca Juniors (1995–98), Dundee (2000–01) and Rangers (2001–03). He has become a club legend and cult-hero at many of the clubs he has played at, for instance when scoring against Dunfermline in 2003 to help Rangers win the title.

In 1988, Caniggia moved to Serie A club Hellas Verona after accumulating 53 appearances and 8 goals for River Plate. He then moved to Atalanta in 1989, where he would remain for three years and score 26 goals in 85 league games. With Atalanta, he competed twice in the UEFA Cup, helping the club reach the quarter-finals in the 1990–91 edition. Despite not winning any silverware, Caniggia later described his experience with Atalanta as "the best years in his career".

Caniggia moved to Roma in 1992, a move both parties believed would help the club aim for the Scudetto, though Roma lost its momentum mid-season with only 15 points from 17 games. After a 1–1 draw against Napoli on 21 March 1993, following a surprise doping test, Caniggia was handed a 13-month ban for taking cocaine; he has a history of enjoying the high life. After his ban expired, he joined Benfica on a year-long loan financed by the Parmalat dairy company. During his Benfica run, Valencia contacted him. He played with the white kit during a friendly match where Valencia faced Brazil in Mestalla. He played as a guest player in a team where Tenerife player Diego Latorre was also included in the squad. Valencia had to pay 80 million pesetas for the inclusion of both players for that friendly, receiving only 66 million in ticket sales.

Argentine media mogul Eduardo Eurnekian then acquired the rights to Caniggia from Roma and Diego Maradona from Racing Club de Avellaneda, loaning them to Boca Juniors in exchange for matches played on his television stations. At the completion of his one-year contract, Caniggia's outspoken wife refused to return to Argentina and he was heavily linked with clubs in England. In September 1996 his mother committed suicide by jumping from the fifth floor of her building and Caniggia did not play in the 1996–97 season. He returned to play for Boca in 1997–98 but his appearances were sporadic as he missed out on the 1998 World Cup squad. After another season of inactivity he re-joined Atalanta in Serie B, helping the club achieve promotion to Serie A, but left after one season following a dispute with coach Giovanni Vavassori. He then signed for Scottish club Dundee, managed by Ivano Bonnetti whom he knew well from their time together in Italy. Quickly becoming Dundee's star player, he was then transferred to Rangers, becoming a fans favourite at Ibrox, after scoring against arch rivals Celtic in a cup final.

In June 2012, he was one of several former professional footballers who agreed to join Wembley to play in their FA Cup campaign for the new season. Caniggia and fellow former-internationals Ray Parlour, Martin Keown, Graeme Le Saux, Jaime Moreno, Danny Dichio and Brian McBride, plus David Seaman (goalkeeping coach) and former England manager Terry Venables (technical advisor), came out of retirement to play for Wembley who were featured in a television documentary as they endeavoured to help the club play at Wembley Stadium. On 12 August 2012, he appeared in a preliminary round of the FA Cup. Aged 45, he scored the first goal in a 3–2 win against Langford.

International career
Caniggia was a key player in both the 1990 and 1994 World Cups, but was not picked under the strict regime of coach Daniel Passarella for France '98.

Caniggia was capped 50 times for Argentina, scoring 16 goals. He played at the 1990 and 1994 World Cups, scoring four goals in eight matches. In Argentina, Caniggia was renowned for excelling for the national team despite not having a high-profile club career nor ever playing for big European teams. Contrary to popular belief and largely due to loose interpretation, Caniggia was not a pure striker, but rather a playmaker or creative forward.

Caniggia was good friends with Argentina legend Diego Maradona; the duo once celebrated a goal with a kiss on the lips. Claudio's wife at that time, model Mariana Nannis, said: "At times I believe Diego is in love with my husband. It must be the long hair and big muscles."

1990 World Cup
At the 1990 World Cup, Caniggia scored two key goals to help Argentina reach the final. He came off the bench in the inaugural match against Cameroon in Milan, memorably being fouled three times in a single dribble as he carried the ball forward, the last, by Benjamin Massing earning the Cameroonian a straight red card (Massing kicked Caniggia so hard his own shoe came off). In the subsequent matches, Caniggia was in the starting lineup. In the second round, Argentina faced Brazil in Turin, and with the score 0–0 after 80 minutes, a pass by Diego Maradona left Caniggia one on one against Brazilian goalkeeper Taffarel; Caniggia dribbled past him and scored on the empty goal, giving Argentina the victory and eliminating Brazil from the tournament in what was seen as a huge upset. The goal gave him legendary status among the Argentine fans for knocking out their chief rivals.

Argentina then beat Yugoslavia in Florence on penalty kicks, advancing to the semi-finals, where they played against Italy in Naples. The Italians had not conceded any goals in five matches, and were up 1–0 at half-time. In the second half, Caniggia headed a cross into the net of goalkeeper Walter Zenga, ending his record streak at 517 minutes without conceding a goal, and sending the match into extra time. After no change in the score, penalty kicks were taken, and Argentina won again through this method, advancing to the final. Caniggia had been cautioned in the team's second first round match against the Soviet Union, and then received another yellow card against Italy for deliberately handling the ball, which earned him a suspension. He had to watch the final between his team and West Germany from the stands in Rome, which Argentina lost 1–0.

1991 Copa América, 1992 Confederations Cup and 1993 CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions

Throughout the 1991 Copa América, Caniggia asserted his dominance and was arguably the most dynamic player; he scored two goals and made four assists in the tournament as Argentina won the title. He also helped Argentina win the 1992 Confederations Cup, in which he scored a goal in the final itself. In February 1993, he scored the goal of the 1–1 tie between Argentina and Denmark in the CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions, held in Mar del Plata. Argentina finally won by penalties and was declared intercontinental champion.

1994 World Cup
Caniggia scored two goals in the 1994 World Cup, both of them in the first round match against Nigeria, the first from a Gabriel Batistuta free kick rebound and second one from a free kick by Diego Maradona, which he finished, putting the ball in top right hand corner. He was taken out of Argentina's third game against Bulgaria 26 minutes into the match in the boiling heat of Dallas, an Argentine team who were also without Maradona. He was left out of the Argentine squad for the team's Round of 16 match against Romania in Los Angeles; Argentina lost 3–2 and were out of the tournament.

2002 World Cup
After refusing to cut his long hair despite the rules of national coach Daniel Passarella, he was frozen out of the national team for a number of years. He made a brief comeback to the Marcelo Bielsa-coached squad for the 2002 World Cup, but did not play. He received a red card for cursing at the referee from the bench in Argentina's last match against Sweden, becoming the first player to be sent off from the bench in a World Cup.

Style of play
A quick and physically strong striker, with good technique and dribbling skills, Caniggia was known in particular for his exceptional speed as a player;  he competed in athletics before his football career, taking part in athletic tournaments at the provincial level, running the 100 meters. In addition to his ability to score goals consistently, he was also equally capable of playing off other forwards, and of creating chances for teammates; as such, he was often deployed in deeper roles as an advanced playmaker or creative forward, or even more frequently out wide as a winger. Due to his explosive running, which enabled him to get past opponents consistently, throughout his career, he was nicknamed El Hijo del Viento ("Son of the Wind") and El Pájaro ("The Bird"). Despite his reputation as one of Argentina's greatest players ever, he was also known to be a controversial player. In addition to his playing ability and goalscoring, Caniggia stood out for his recognisable long blonde hair.

Personal life
Caniggia was married to Mariana Nannis. They had three children: Kevin Axel, Álex Dimitri and Charlotte Chantal. In September 2019, Caniggia asked his wife for a divorce and started dating Sofia Bonelli, a 26-year-old Argentine model. In November 2019 he and Bonelli got married in Tulum, Mexico.

Honours
River Plate
 * Primera División Argentina: 1985–86
 * Copa Libertadores: 1986
 * Intercontinental Cup: 1986
 * Copa Interamericana: 1986

Roma
 * Coppa Italia runner-up: 1992–93

Boca Juniors
 * Argentine Primera División runner-up: 1997 Apertura

Rangers
 * Scottish Premier League: 2002–03
 * Scottish Cup: 2001–02, 2002–03
 * Scottish League Cup: 2001–02, 2002–03

Qatar SC
 * Qatar Cup: 2003–04

Argentina
 * Copa América: 1991
 * FIFA Confederations Cup: 1992
 * CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions: 1993
 * Kirin Cup: 1992
 * FIFA World Cup runner-up: 1990

title: Claudio Caniggia


text:
Megalochori, Methana

Megalochori (Μεγαλοχώρι) is a village and a community in the western part of the volcanic Methana peninsula, Greece. It is located 3 km northwest of Methana town. The community consists of the villages Megalochori, Vathy, Kaimeni Chora and Megalo Potami. The ancient Acropolis of Methana, which was described by Pausanias, is located near Megalochori.

Methana Volcano
Near Megalochori is located the village Kameni Chora. In this place the last volcanic eruption of Methana Volcano happened between 277 and 240 B.C., during the times of Antigonus Gonatas, king of Macedonia.

title: Megalochori, Methana


text:
Talk:Ashura

Link to early Muslim celebration of Yom Kippur?
Below is some material removed for now from the article. It seems to show some evidence of early Muslims celebrating Yom Kippur, which occurs on the tenth day of Tishri, a practice that have become blurred with Ashura. The sources, none of which contain links or quotes, are not particularly illuminating. There is clearly at least one hadith being cited for this, though whether it is considered reliable or unreliable is unclear.

According to Muslim tradition, the Jews also fasted on the tenth day. According to Sunni Muslim tradition, Ibn Abbas narrated that Muhammad came to Medina and saw the Jews fasting on the tenth day of Muharram. He asked, "What is this?" They said, "This is a good day, this is the day when Allah saved the Children of Israel from their enemy and Musa (Moses) fasted on this day." He said, "We have more claim over Musa than you." So he fasted on the day and told the people to fast. This tenth in question is believed to be the tenth of the Jewish month of Tishri, which is Yom Kippur in Judaism. The Torah designates the tenth day of the seventh month as holy and a fast (Lev.16, Lev.23, Num.29). The word "tenth" in Hebrew is ʿAsarah or ʿAsharah, which is from the same Semitic root ʿ-SH-R. According to this tradition, Muhammad continued to observe the veneration of Ashura modeled on its Jewish prototype in late September until shortly before his death, when the verse of Nasi' was revealed and the Jewish-type calendar adjustments of the Muslims became prohibited. From then on, Ashura became distinct from its Jewish predecessor of Yōm Kippur.

 * Encyclopedia Britannica supported the connection above, so I have re-incorporated the material above around its basic structure. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:53, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Salman Rushdie attack
With reference to the recently added and removed material, this clearly occurred within the Ashura time period in 2022, but the timing appears coincidental. The central element to the story is that the perpetrator has some sort of Iranian Shia fandom backstory is and saw that Salman Rushdie planned a public talk. The attack is not clearly connected to Ashura in any way, other than in its timing. As an illustration, attacks perpetuated between 25 December and 5 January are not "Christmas attacks" because they take place within the 12 days of Christmas. The existing section of this page about terrorist attacks is focused on attacks on actual Ashura processions, where the connection is more evident. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:34, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:37, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Tazia procession at Ashura in Chiniot.jpg

title: Talk:Ashura


text:
Daiei (disambiguation)

Daiei may refer to:

 * Daiei, a Japanese supermarket chain
 * Daiei (era), a Japanese historical era
 * Daiei Film, a Japanese film studio that went bankrupt and was acquired by Kadokawa Pictures
 * Daiei Unions (大映ユニオンズ), a baseball team owned by Daiei Film
 * Daiei Television (大映テレビ), a company formerly belonging to Daiei Film
 * Daiei, Tottori, a town in Tottori Prefecture

title: Daiei (disambiguation)


text:
Talk:Allan variance

Stable32
As of fairly recently Stable32 is freely available from the IEEE UFFC website, at least in executable binary form for Windows. (https://ieee-uffc.org/frequency-control/frequency-control-software/stable32/). Stable32 is widely used in time/frequency so this link might be worth adding.

variable names
there is missing a concise explanation of variable names:

with the first equation should be explained what y, T and tau are. x appears without any explanation ... later appears the nebulous remark that y is the derivative of x - but what is x ?

the oscillator model has a variable name for the amplitude (big) V (13th letter of alpabet).

The name of frequency is (small) v (same letter).

This is even for a quality C article not sufficient.

--Janschween (talk) 14:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

explanation for high-school-level
Could someone add an explanation for high-school-level people as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.136.198.205 (talk) 13:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Could the nature of the "frequency deviation" be explained? Michael Hardy 21:52, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I took a stab at it.--Srleffler 05:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Note: This article was originally based on text derived from a public domain entry in Federal Standard 1037C. -- The Anome 00:38, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I have just done a general overhaul of the article. There is a few bits and pieces that certainly could be improved. I intend to add and refined the references. I think the field of Bias terms could be improved. A few nice graphs could be added, so I will attend to that somewhat later. Cfmd (talk) 15:35, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

More restructuring, revamping the definitions, adding M-sample variance, getting the definition correct, more hints to the reader being new to the field. The bias functions, error bars and edf is the main fields missing from the current article for it to cover the field sufficiently well. References needs to be worked on. The old formulations was sample-series oriented, while true definitions needs to be continuous time based and then confined into the sample-series world as a special case, which has taken some effort. Cfmd (talk) 01:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Resolved the issue relating to measurement bandwidth, since it is obvious from the frequency domain representation that all forms of noise depends on the measurement bandwidth, but the formulas only let the WPM and FPM noise forms depend on it. Digging up the original references for those formulas was fruitful as it clearly state the assumption in the beginning of the Appendix A and then detailing the derivation in Appendix B. By adding the references and the assumption text and formula it becomes clear that the tabulated formulas is not exact. Additional clarification was added to the bandwidth limitation text to better bring out the point. Now I feel much more confident that the stated problem and solution is correct, while it certainly could be improved further. Also happy to bring in some more original references in order to better complete the reference aspect of the article. Cfmd (talk) 23:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Added section on bias functions. This is by far completed, but provides a starting point. It also makes it bleeding obvious that the alpha-to-mu mapping that I have been avoiding needs to be presented as the bias functions uses the mu value which is not being referred to anywhere else. The bias calculators needs to be included. The classical bias reference is added.

In addition has a new section been added to provide some research history. While it at first glace may seem to duplicate the background section, it is intended to focus on the research while the background is more to help orient a new reader to what this is all about. Bias functions is to almost no use for the new reader where as they are of much more importance in the research history scope.

Once the bias functions is done, the error bars, confidence intervals and edf analysis needs to be addressed.

Another aspect to cover is the current lack of graphics. There is a wealth of graphical plots to aid the process of understanding in the traditional literature, but so far this article has none. I think this article would benefit from a few graphs, but I am resisting the obvious temptation to "borrow" from others (with associated Copyright issues).

Considering adding a section of educational and practical resources giving some guidance to the wealth of material available. Different articles and books distinguish themselves in explaining different aspects and giving short presentations on that may help the interested in finding the right material for deeper studies. Cfmd (talk) 00:22, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

The bias section is essentially complete including the B1, B2 and B3 bias functions as well as the guide to conversion between measurements. Only minor additions such as supporting references for tau bias and conversion of values.

The main areas needing attention is the alpha-mu mapping as well as confidence intervals and edf. Cfmd (talk) 16:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The removal of huge part of introduction section done 2010-05-05T06:21:46 by 210.212.130.71 was contra-productive as it removed key material from the introduction. The introduction could certainly be improved, but removing those section such that the article name, common alternate definition etc. being removed does not help the reader to orient him/her-self. I have made a manual undo to restore the content. Please provide comments here instead of removing it. Cfmd (talk) 19:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The alpha-mu mapping, confidence interval and effective degrees of freedom has been addressed.

The auto-correlation functions could possibly be added for completeness, as these are being used to establish the bias functions among other things. They will be helpful for completeness but most of the daily use should be covered by now. Cfmd (talk) 01:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. --r.e.b. (talk) 03:05, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Considering that the article now has undergone a major overhaul, which has essentially removed the old structure by freshly written material, I think that this copyright notice may be dropped as there will be less incentive to revert the removal. I will have a look at the old text and see if there is any meaningful contents not already covered. Cfmd (talk) 01:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Sample indexing convention
The casual reader will notice that the convention being used here for numbering and indexing phase and average frequency samples differs from most other texts. The traditional convention numbers time error samples x_i with i from 1 to N and average fractional frequency samples y_i from 1 to M. The mapping functions lets

 * $$x_i = x(i*T)$$

which looks OK at first. But then considering that the average fractional frequency integration goes from 0 to tau will let the first sample cover the time from x(T) to x(T+tau) rather than starting at x(0) up to x(tau) which one would believe it to be and in fact what most implementations would do. IEEE 1139 has the constant x_0 added, but to no help since you expect the first average to cover x(x_0) to x(x_0 + tau). To circumvent this issue four different approaches can be used

1) Offset the mapping function with T such that it becomes

 * $$x_i = x((i-1)T)$$

which will solve the problem, but leaving the explanation of the somewhat unexplained -1 term.

2) Offset the difference function in the Allan variance such that it uses the backward frequency derivate.

This would break the relationship to the M-variance function which is not a derivate but becomes that in the special case of doing a 2-sample variance.

3) Offset the average fractional frequency function to use back-ward integration.

 * $$\bar{y}_i = \frac{1}{\tau}\int\limits_{-T}^{-T+\tau}y(t+t_v) \, dt_v = \frac{x(iT-T+\tau) - x(iT-T)}{\tau}$$

which again is inelegant. Notice how the continous x(t) function is needed as the T vs tau subtle detail can't be expressed in the indexed sample variant, another inelegance in presentation.

4) Use a straight mapping and offset the predictor to run from 0 rather than 1.

From these choices solution 4 has been selected as M-sample variance with dead-time can be made to colapase nicely into the Allan variance when M=2 and T=tau.

This convention has proven useful when implementing in base-0 indexed languages such as C.

One should also consider what happens for different taus, either by evaluating for different taus or by concatenating samples to create an extended measurement. In all these case we want the starting point to remain the same, 0 (or some offset x_0) for all these cases. Using an offset like T or tau would create a shift which needs to be cancelled correctly.

The used convention and traditional convention does not deliver different results, but the used convention is hopefully more consistent and useful over the range of variances that is included in this series of articles. I believe that the convention chosen is for best consistency and presentation solution available, at the cost of not being exactly transcribed from the referenced papers or IEEE 1139. Cfmd (talk) 22:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Introduction
I moved some material around to make the introduction easier to understand. The equations were hampering the readability of the main theme of the introduction. So, I moved the equations to the end of the paragraphs. There is one paragarph that was so technical that it was opaque, to anyone who doesn't know anything about this topic. I moved that paragarph to a newly created section entitled "Technical considerations". Hopefully this helps, because the introduction needed improvements. It still needs more imporvements. Ciao. Steve Quinn (formerly Ti-30X) (talk) 05:22, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

 * I agree that there was room for improvements there.

 * The edit that made "sigma-tau" into the greek letters of that appear was also incorrect, as that term is always used in latin form. Your movement of that into formula form is further incorrect. Thus, I removed it.

 * The section name "Technical considerations" is a misnomer. I was already contemplating on moving that paragraph to a separate section, but naming it "Technical considerations" is not helpful, as the sections "Measurement issues" present one out of many sections you would expect under that title. I changed it to "Interpretation of value" as it is closer to what it attempts to achieve, namely describe what kind of layman-meaning the values has.

 * The movement of the M-sample variance presentation I think may be inappropriate. I will consider moving it back. Also, the locations of the new sections may not have been the best. Both M-sample variance and Interpretation of values may have better be put after the Background section, which is there to present the "Why do we do this" aspect.

 * When looking at the intro, moving a few sentences from the Allan variance and Allan deviation paragraphs to form new paragraphs in the Interpretation section makes the clean-up separation better. Those sentences where there help explain the values to the layman, and where needing a new location. I think that the readability of the intro becomes better and that the layman would have better use of the assisting material in one location. Considering the now much sparser intro, reintroducing the M-sample variance there makes better sense, but I have not done that so far. Cfmd (talk) 10:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

 * It sounds like you have some good ideas, and taken some positive action regarding this article. I say, do whatever you think is best. Steve Quinn (formerly Ti-30X) (talk) 21:49, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

- vs. –
User:Michael Hardy and User:Materialscientist makes changes to or from - and –. This location is here to have them agree on which is the correct variant and then we will use only that format convention. My goal is to see the oscillation go away. Cfmd (talk) 17:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Upon cursory look, I haven't seen oscillations, but Michael rather fixed what I missed. Hyphens are not to be used for page ranges, minus signs, separation of sentence parts, etc. Materialscientist (talk) 00:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

It looks to me as if what "Materialscientist" did was to change one kind of en-dash to another, both of which look the same to the reader. He didn't change en-dashes to hyphens, as far as I can see.

en-dashes are used in ranges of pages, ranges of years, months, etc., things named after two people (e.g. the Cauchy–Riemann equations). Michael Hardy (talk) 01:16, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Measurement class and importance
In lack of finding another way to get assessment, I simply try to set the class and importance of the article. I beleive it has matured significantly, and to the best of my knowledge it should meet the C grade at least, possibly B grade. If not, I want to learn what is missing and correct it.

As for importance, within the measurement field of time and frequency, Allan variance is a key concept. For that field, tagging the importance as mid is an understatement, where as for others outside of that field it may seem specialized. However, considering that more units directly or indirectly reverts back to the SI second, the tools to assess the stability of time becomes necessary for those fields as well, and indeed we have seen the use of Allan variance for other measurements than pure time, such as in accelerometers. Cfmd (talk) 01:01, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Modified Allan estimators section
I reverted the removal of the section on modified Allan estimators. Please do not remove it without discussion here. There is a line of estimators achieving the modified variant of the Allan variance, but they line up to the same scale. The section is intended to explain the benefits, and is the part which goes into most detail where as the hints about it exists in more places. Cfmd (talk) 12:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Allan Variance Power Law Response (table)
There seems to be a rather opaque normalisation in the table that gives equations for Allan variance/deviation in terms of Sf. That is to say: I would expect Allan deviation to be inversely proportional to the carrier frequency, but the carrier frequency does not appear anywhere in the table. It could of course be hidden in the parameter h (h-1, h-2, etc.) but this is not locally apparent. Please clarify or correct.

ThanksPhysicistQuery (talk) 18:20, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in answering. Considering that both forms relates to normalized form for the same carrier, it is a static component in this conversion. This table exists in this form in a wide range of publications. Cfmd (talk) 20:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

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Effective degrees of freedom
There appear to be some typographic errors in these equations in the original source, which includes a PDF annotation referring to an erratum that I could not track down. Google scanned a series of books containing a reproduction of the original article, but that scan seems to cut off right before the page where the appropriately-numbered erratum would appear.

As a general principle, we ought to expect df to scale linearly with N when n is held constant. My intuition for offering this guideline is as follows. The Allan variance estimator takes (in effect) a second-order finite difference of the phase time-series. Among the five noise models, the one with the strongest long-time correlation behavior, the frequency random walk, is the double-integral of white noise. All of the other noise models have less spectral constant at low frequencies, and hence weaker long-time correlations. Taking a second-order finite difference of a double integral of white noise gives you back more-or-less white noise. So Allan variance samples taken far apart (compared to n) under any of the five noise models will be more-or-less independent. Thus, when N is much greater than n, the number of effective degrees of freedom had better scale linearly with N.

This general principle is violated by the expressions given in the article (as of Jan. 23, 2020) for FPM and FFM in the n=1 case.

In the FPM expression, the original source omits the inverse-square-root operation entirely. They write exp(ln * ln). That is clearly wrong; df would then scale like exp(ln(N)^2) for large N. The inverse square root does not make sense, either, scaling like exp(1/ln(N)). I have not found any source that corroborates the inverse-square-root version. The correction that makes sense is a non-inverted square root. Perhaps the original authors took the geometric mean of two fits on two different log-log plots? In any event, with the exponent changed from (-1/2) to (+1/2), the expression gains sensible asymptotic behavior for large N: unless I am mistaken, it runs like (N-1) √((2n+1)/(8n)).

As for the n=1 FFM case: The original authors cite, in an earlier paragraph, the work of a number of other authors (Lesage, Audoin, and Yoshimura). Those equations are numbered (6.5). The authors then cast some doubt upon them. Nevertheless, it appears that they intended for the n=1 FFM expression in their results, (6.6), to be a copy of that in (6.5); however, the copy-editor seems to have missed that the (N-2) expression in the numerator must be squared. Not only does this resolve the conflict between (6.5) and (6.6), it also recovers sensible asymptotic behavior for large N.

Mumble mumble original research-- I can't make the edit without locating a better source, but I definitely want to leave this breadcrumb here for the next person who gets confused. Good luck! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Piannucci (talk • contribs) 10:30, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Allan variance