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Talk:Dashboard Confessional

DC?! Anyone Actually Like TheM Here?
For one, they rock, literally...i would class them as indie yet so many class them as emo. So what, if you read*sighs* eminem's lyrics some are emotional yet you class him hiphop not emo?! Ok, i'm very confused aout this, come back soon x -Vindicated, I am selfish, I am Wrong I am right I swear i'm right. Swear I knew it all along... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.13.19.69 (talk • contribs).

poster children of emo
If it's the consensus among editors that DC is not an emo band, then I accept that. However, one issue that was touched on, but not resolved, in the below debate, is that DC are very widely perceived as an emo band, even if that perception is incorrect. As encyclopaedians, wouldn't it be simply irresponsible to entirely disregard that? Perhaps the first sentence could be reworded to: "Dashboard Confessional is an American acoustic/electric guitar driven indie rock band (often mistakenly labeled as emo) ..." Or, maybe, there could be a short section in the article about the distinction, and why they aren't really emo? It just seems silly to ignore that DC are extremely widely perceived to be emo. A google search for "dashboard confessional emo" yields 489,000 results, for "dashboard confessional indie" 421,000. Thatcrazycommie 02:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a plan to me... :) Go ahead. --HarryCane 15:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Right. I just wanted to make sure there were no objections. I'll try to get around to writing a short section, but, to be honest, I don't really know what makes music officially "emo" or not, so it won't be very good. Hopefully someone who does can clean it up.Thatcrazycommie 04:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Eyeliner and lyrics about slitting wrists, if you go by common conception... :) --HarryCane 11:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I must agree with that crazy commie. Definitions are simply what people agree a words means and people have decided that DC is an Emo band.  This may be a misnomer considering the history of emo but to say that they are not emo is to disagree with the majority consensus about the definition of emo.  For many people emo is defined as “what dashboard confessional sounds like.”  As the majority of people believe that it seems silly and against wikipedia standards to fight calling DC emo.  You may argue that wikipedia is a place for facts not for putative knowledge but definitions are by their nature determined by what most people think.  Perhaps the problem is the newly arisen def. of emo not this article? Beckboyanch 07:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't disagree with this. I think it can be mentioned that Dashboard is widely consider emo, but then it must be mentioned that they are in fact not an emo band (just as the emo article does). And to be honest, "definitions are by their nature determined by what most people think" is a little bogus, don't you think? I mean, if the majority of the population of the earth thought that 0.999... does not equal 1, that would certainly not suspend the mathematical law. And this is where it gets religious: If the majority of the population of the earth thought that the existence of mankind started with homo sapiens Adam and Eve, that does not suspend (scientificly proven) evolutionary theories. Also, as I already pointed out, if you go by what most people think, emo music is defined by the use of "eyeliner and lyrics about slitting wrists", both of which are not very prevalent in Dashboard Confessional's self presentation. --HarryCane 11:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

 * While you are a hundred percent right about facts definitions are different. A definition is what people agree a word means, it is what the majority have decided a word means.  The majority of people have decided that the word emo includes DC and therefore DC is emo.  This may represent a significant divulgence from previous usage, it may confuse, but because people agree that something (Y) is x then Y is x because now x means what Y is regardless of what x used to mean.  Popular usage determines definition and within popular usage DC is emo therefore DC is emo.  If the definition expressed in wikipedia or elsewhere does not include DC as emo then it must e changed.  However this is more a question of the philosophy of words than relevant to the article should this discussion should end within the confines of this talk page.Beckboyanch 02:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Their sound is very emo-ish ... Even so, that's far from making them an "emo" band. And in any case, why should it matter? They are a simply good band. What does it matter, then, to real fans what genre they're in? I agree wholeheartedly that just because the masses are typically in favor of one idea or another, that doesn't make it true. For instance, macroevolution is gaining increasing popularity and is being taught in "schools" throughout this country, despite the fact that "neither the biochemical nor replicative pathways have been described" and "many scientists think that they could not have arisen by any naturalistic means." Furthermore, "contrary to the expectations of evolutionary theory, the fossil record is replete with complex transitions and new designs whereas simple transitions (intermediates) are rare." And even if one was to take a less literal stance on passages like Genesis 1 and 2 and accept, or at least give plausibility to, the evolutionary theory, the duality of man's existence is certainly the most unique observable phenomena in our galaxy, and should therefore hinder any logical person from straying from theism to naturalism. If all creatures are striving towards perfection (and it does seem that they are), then eventually they would have to reach a metaphysical state of existence--no food or shelter would be required, and why worry about offspring since only the substantial is subject to the laws of duration? However, no organism--this at least to me seems to be the case--could arrive on its own, or by any natural means, in that nonsubstantial, metaphysical realm of existence. Indeed, it would require divine intervention ... Already, it seems, man has some sense of duality to his existence, but not much. This seems to me the most logical explanation behind what we'd called the "spiritual." Our spirits are that part of us who exist partially in that realm. Our bodies are subject to the laws of duration, but our spirits (that metaphysical part of us) are not, so even once our bodies have given away, still our spirits would remain, and it seems that at this point the whole sum of our existence would tranfer to that metaphysical, nonsubstantial, heavenly realm. This is the primary logic behind Life after death, and it has been (and still is) perplexing man since that spirit was first bestowed to him by his Maker ...

Dashboard Confessional not emo
If the above statement is true, why are they so often credited as the poster child of emo? I swear I have heard this hundreds of times. ~ Joe —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.227.11.130 (talk • contribs).

 * Couldn't this whole argument be solved with the assertion of a line into the article saying something like "Although there is some disagreement among their fans, Dashboard Confessional is often credited as being the poster child of emo" with some citation? Mshatzer 02:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Things like Rites of Spring and Embrace are emo. Dashboard confessional are just an emotional band. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.167.192.17 (talk • contribs).

Simply look at Wiki's emo article for a perfectly clear reasoning as to why this is so. Dashboard would fit more properly into acoustic (for earlier releases) or pop rock/alternative for later releases. There are no trace elements of emo in Dashboard Confessional's sound, nor is there any distinct emo influence on Chris Carabba's music. Therefore, listing DC as falling under the genre "emo" is a falsity.

I fail to see the point of a discussion if no elements of the discussion are going to be taken into consideration with the article. There is no evidence to show that Dashboard Confessional is an emo band, yet there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. It seems only logical that "rock" or "acoustic" should be limited to the genres of this band. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.29.11.181 (talk • contribs).

 * The emo article clearly states that Dashboard Confessional is an emo band (section "Third wave"). So, I don't get your point. --HarryCane 14:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Read further in depth as to what they article says. It's including Dashboard in a list of bands that are labeled as part of the "third wave" of emo bands that do not actually belong there. The point is valid; acoustic and rock describe Dashboard's sound far more accurately than "emo" possibly could. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.29.11.181 (talk • contribs).

 * No, it does not. It says that the term and genre "emo" shifted with the third wave, to include bands that have a similar sound to that of Jimmy Eat World. However, it does not say that these bands are not to be considered emo bands. See, just like in most other genres, there was an evolution of sorts. What most people don't realize is that not every emo band has to sound exactly like the roots of their genre. Not every emo band has to be a rip-off of Sunny Day Real Estate (just like every pop music artist doesn't have to sound like Frank Sinatra). Maybe that analogy is not too perfect, but you get the picture.
 * Also, since A Mark, a Mission, a Brand, a Scar, Dashboard Confessional has moved past just being an acoustic band. --HarryCane 11:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

When "evolution" occurs in music genres, it creates a new subgenre. In order for a band to be part of a genre, they also must share characteristics that are common with it. The point of the matter is that Dashboard Confessional holds none of the "roots" of the genre of emo. Calling Dashboard "emo" is a cultural phenomenon, not a matter of facts. No more than four or five years ago, we would be debating whether Dashboard Confessional was a "pop punk" band, with the ramifications of that being whether there was such a thing. This is similar to the "jazz vs. smooth jazz" debate, and whether or not smooth jazz can even be labeled a form of jazz due to its lack of improvisation (a staple of all forms of jazz). Emo is emotionally charged hardcore punk, to say that it is anything else (as ridiculous as the label itself is) is a bastardization of both the history of the genre and the bands that pioneered the sound. Dashboard holds no similarities whatsoever to early emo or emocore bands. There is no influence in the sound. Even Chris Carabba's prior band, Further Seems Forever, had little influence from the genre itself until after Chris left the band, to which their sound took a distinctively more "heavy" approach.

Also, in the emo article, it mentions that by the time Jimmy Eat World became popular, they had removed almost all of their emo influences, meaning that they were no longer an emo band. It continues by stating that they were still labeled as emo (a false assumption on part of the public), and that Dashboard Confessional is a band with a similar sound. If one band is not emo, then how can a band with a similar sound be emo? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.29.11.181 (talk • contribs).

 * I must say, I agree 100% with you on this. I think the term "emo" is applied way too haphazardly to contemporary bands these days, and has therefore received a very negative connotation (it has become more of an insult than an appropriate description of genre). However, with the general public still applying the term to Jimmy Eat World even after their change of style, I would say the genre itself changed with the band, as they were considered the last active emo band. It has undoubtedly become a completely different genre, bearing close to no similarity to its roots, but it's still called "emo" (although it should in fact be a sub-genre of emo at best). I think the emo article should maybe be split, to distinguish the two forms of emo, because in my eyes, Dashboard Confessional's (i.e. Brand New's, Taking Back Sunday's, etc.) "neo-emo" has become (albeit thanks to incorrect labelling in the first place) more than just a false classification, but a new sub-genre of emo. --HarryCane 17:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with the idea of a genre changing and still retaining the same label. To me, that indicates a creation of a new subgenre or genre altogether. Take for example, the genres of Industrial and Power Electronics/Powernoise/Noise. While the latter most certainly has roots in the first, they are not one in the same and therefore do not adopt the same name. I think that it is incredibly misleading to imply that Dashboard and their ilk are part of the genre of emo, especially given the vast difference in their sound compared to actual emo bands. Also, I have to bring up that the use of the word today is the result of cultural or societal ignorance. It doesn't represent fact. What the majority says shouldn't automatically be stated as fact, especially if the assumptions of the majority are based off of a lack of knowledge. Splitting the emo article should be just one step, although I probably wouldn't have a problem with the used of "emo" to describe these bands if it was emphasized that they are "third wave emo" (as much as I detest that term). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.29.11.181 (talk • contribs).

 * Dashboard is listed as an emo band in this article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emo_artists#D I think there obviously needs to be a clearer definition of the word "emo."  I say that because of their lyrics and their high vocals in some of their non-acoustic songs (i.e. "Vindicated"), this should be listed as an emo band.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.7.243.254 (talk) 18:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Dashboard Confessional is SOOO not emo. Emo's like "Ahhhh, my life has no meaning. Why is there hate and war in the world? WAAAAAAAHHHHHHEEEEEEEE...." And Dashboard Confessional has a life. Take "These Bones" for example. It's a song about Twilight (you know what I'm talking about). Anybody who bothers to read a book like that wouldn't write a song that goes, "Why is James so mean to Bella and Edward? They possess a love deeper than that of man- and vampirekind have seen for all eternity... WAAAAAAAHHHHHEEEEEEEE...." Also, they're super cool and nice at concerts, and they actually have a sense of humor. E&eauthor (talk) 05:11, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

emo
i totally agree about the emo thing people nowadays classify way too much music as emo some people even say simple plan and green day are emo. i can see how they would classify bands like hawthorne heights, taking back sundy etc. as emo but they should be clasified as "mainstreamo" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Burger king (talk • contribs).

 * Ha..I call those bands "wannabemo." But I agree too.  I hate the misconceptions and mislabelling about 'emo.'  It's so irritating, but I'm sure any attempts to edit Wikipedia to more accurately describe "emo" would be reverted by the masses who are misinfomred about what emo is. WikiFew 06:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say give it a try. :) --HarryCane 09:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

DBCLive/DBCFans Link
I remember adding a link to DBCLive previously, which is (was) a website that fans could go to in order to download their live performances through FTP. That site seems to be down, but has a replacement site of DBCFans.com, created by one of the hosts of DBCLive. The site is well known by the band, and in fact, has been used as a reference for the band, when they were looking for particular material from a particular live appearance. Why is it improper to have a link for this website? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drego5 (talk • contribs) 19:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC).

The emo genre
Seriously, emo does not have to mention slitting wrists. It has other topics like being unnoticed by girls and rejected (for you to notice) and a sad end to something (currents). I also think DC to be emo, because of the acoustic guitar/emotional vocals combination in some of their songs, and not indie, because other indie bands (maritime, the dismemberment plan, travis etc) are not nearly as emotional as them, and so dc don't fit in with the indie rock genre. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.47.168.41 (talk) 11:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

 * For the one millionth time: the term emo music does not come from an emotional way to sing, or emotional lyrics. Hell, Kelly Clarkson and P!nk have emotional songs, are they emo? Emo is a subgenre of hardcore punk that was predominant in the '90s. --HarryCane 13:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Well both of those singers have no emo image, but almost everyone (almost) who is an emo group has some sort of emo image. Also, the two singers who you have called emotional, mostly have more upbeat songs, normal sung vocals etc. The lyrics don't mention ideas associated with emo such as loneliness, heartbreak etc to the extent of emo bands such as dashboard confessional or hawthorne heights. Emo is either in a Hardcore format, or in a indie style format, so DC are still an emo band, but part of the indie emo scene which once included Texas is the reason.

Hawthorne Heights are not emo. Please stop talking.

 * You can't really classify a bands genre until you establish exactly what the genre is. In my opinion emo means extremely emotional, lonely, hopeless, depressed, and a social outcast. That is where the lyrics about slitting wrists come from, but are not in every emo song. Also every reference to slitting wrists dosent flag emo right away. One example is the +44 song No It Isn't where the chours includes "Let's slit our wrists and burn down something beatiful". +44 is pop punk but not emo. I've only heard a few DC songs, but from what I've heard they include all the things I thought meant emo. The reason i think bands are reluctant to be called emo is beacuse it has such a bad connotation and if they were labled emo most people would laugh and say "They're emo, I don't want to listen to them" before they even give them a chance. --Jaylee182 02:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Emo = Emotional hardcore music. This is not emotional hardcore music. End of discussion. THANK YOU! -RaikiriChidori 12:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Yea sorry I bought a DC album and now I see how wrong I was. They aren't even close to being emo. Ok i agree with you now and everybody else should. DASHBOARD CONFESSIONAL IS NOT EMO.--Jaylee182 19:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that they aren't that emo, but they do need some recognition for why people label them emo. You could compare this band to Sunny Day Real Estate, they were an indie-emo band.

hey its not like they don't have a connection,if you forget,chris carraba was the siinger for further seems forever,what i and many others would consider a credible band as being part of the indie emo scene except that they happened to come after the stuff like mineral and texas is the reason.but just because a band didn't come with a wave shouldn't make them not emo. and if not,further seems forever were still connected to sense field and that,my friends is indie emo. just because dashboard confessional isn't really what emo is,DOESN'T mean you have to blame chris and say 'his genres shouldn't include emo',or call him the person who 'fucked up emo'. thats like saying ian mckaye 'fucked up emo',because fugazi became too big and forgetting that he was the pioneer frontman.i would have said that about guy pio...c.. aswell but i don't know how to spelll his name(lol!). --Nirvanarox55 (talk) 17:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Scott scoenbeck?
scott from the promise ring is in DC? is he the furthest away on the picture? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.47.169.201 (talk) 16:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

What the fuck? Add in what I said about how they are Emo.
Yeah some idiot deleted what what I recently put in here on how they are Emo..Recently, as in about maybe less than an hour ago. So put it back in. Zephead999 06:18, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Please be civil. Stop editing articles with absolutly no consensus. Zazaban 02:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Seriously dude, chill out. The "Emo" topic is hotly debated around here, and we're not going to put something in just because you want us to. Besides, they are very much NOT emo, IMO. Emo is actually punk rock, buch closer to what is called "scroamo" today. Rwiggum (talk) 15:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

References in Popular Culture
Are you sure that the song "Ender Will Save Us All," is a reference the book? Chris's middle name is Ender and in an interview with Aaron Gilispie of Underoath in Alternative Press, Aaron said he loves that song and had a conversation about it with Chris himself, and I believe it gives the origins of the song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhendershott (talk • contribs) 17:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

MTV2 Album Covers
Hi, I had a look in the article for info on "MTV2 Album Covers: Dashboard Confessional & R.E.M" But couldn't see anything. Im not an expert on Dashboard Confessional albums so perhaps it is named something different. If not would it be possible to add it? More info: http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/rem/albums/album/5251809/mtv2_album_covers_dashboard_confessional__rem Fosnez (talk) 01:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Scala disambiguation
I fixed the disambiguation for Scala, but I'm not sure if that was the right one. The only other place on Wikipedia is some small village, so I just assumed it was the one in Italy. Feel free to change it if it is wrong.--Mynameisnotpj (talk) 16:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Clear Up This Emo Argument
Remember people, music is about sound not lyrics. If metallica were to make the heaviest song about slitting wrist would it be emo? No, emo is a sound not lyrics just as all music is. Same with punk, not all punk is about anarchey, so if a pop band comes along and sings about anarchy are they punk? Just getting that out of the wayA7xTheRev12 (talk) 00:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

talk about an argument about nothing..I drove their truck all over east of the mississippi down south universit of souther miss to upstate new york and canada even ryman hall nashvill nyc live at 7a.m. ( before they rightfully blew up couldnt happen to a nicer. talented, hardworking,amazing band)anyway and after being backstage at a shitload of shows they would still night after night just impress and amaze me. have toured with many acts but have to say they are into the fans as much as the fans are into the band EMO not in my opinion just a talented tight with cleaver lyrics.so i guess i agree with the prior artical have to just call them a great band .. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.3.91.130 (talk) 11:04, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

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Proposed merge of John Lefler into Dashboard Confessional
Per WP:BANDMEMBER. Career outside Dashboard Confessional does not appear to give him enough notability for a separate article. Tacyarg (talk) 21:42, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dashboard Confessional


text:
Art Longsjo

Arthur "Art" Matthew Longsjo Jr. (October 23, 1931 – September 16, 1958) was an American Olympian speed skater and cyclist. He was the first American to compete in the Summer and Winter Olympics in the same year.

Biography
Longsjo was born in Fitchburg, Massachusetts. In 1953, he won the 1 mile, 3 mile, and 25 mile races at the Massachusetts State Cycling Championships after riding his bicycle 1.5 hours to the race (from Fitchburg to Westborough, Massachusetts). In 1954, he won the Quebec-Montreal Road Race and was named the Canadian Cyclist of the Year. He won the race again in 1956.

Longsjo won the 5,000 m speed skating event at the United States national championships to make the Olympic team at the Winter Olympics. In 1956, he competed in both the Winter Olympics as a speed skater and the Summer Olympics as a cyclist. Due to a knee injury before the games, he placed outside the medal stand. Longsjo was the first American to compete in both the Winter and Summer Olympics in the same year.

In 1958 Longsjo won three races, the Tour of Somerville, the Tour du St. Laurent stage race and the Quebec-Montreal Road Race.

Longsjo died in 1958 following a car accident in Burlington, Vermont. He had been returning from the Quebec-Montreal Road Race.

Awards and honors
In 1960 the Fitchburg Longsjo Classic was held in Fitchburg in memory of Longsjo. The race was a road bicycle racing stage race that was held annually until 2019. On March 18, 2020, event organizers announced that the event was being retired.

Longsjo was inducted into the National Speedskating Hall of Fame in 1970, and the U.S. Bicycling Hall of Fame in 1988.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Art Longsjo


text:
ABC (The Jackson 5 album)

ABC is the second studio album by the Jackson 5, released on May 8, 1970 by Motown. It featured the No. 1 singles "ABC" and "The Love You Save", and has sold up to 6 million copies worldwide. Also present on the LP are several notable album tracks, including a cover of Funkadelic's "I'll Bet You", "I Found That Girl" (the only track with brother Jermaine on lead vocals), and "The Young Folks", originally recorded by Diana Ross and the Supremes.

The album peaked at No. 4 on the Billboard Pop Albums Chart and at No. 1 on the Billboard Black Albums chart in the United States. It was ranked No. 98 on VH1's All-Time Albums Top 100 list. It remains one of the Jackson 5's most popular efforts. The title track was nominated for the Grammy Award for Best Pop Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocals in 1971.

Re-release
In 2001, Motown remastered all Jackson 5 albums in a "Two Classic Albums/One CD" series (much like they did in the late 1980s). This album was paired up with Diana Ross Presents The Jackson 5. The bonus track was an outtake, "Oh, I've Been Blessed", a song also released on the rare 1979 outtakes album Boogie.

An alternate version of the title track appears on the CD I Want You Back! Unreleased Masters released in 2009.

title: ABC (The Jackson 5 album)


text:
Talk:Ephedrine

Untitled
"Overdose can lead to death, although the approved dose is not likely to cause severe reactions when used as directed.

Ephedrine can also lead to damage of the brain receptors over a period of high usage; this is because of its constant action on the neurochemicals. It also leads to high increase in blood pressure which over time can lead to damage in the blood vessels."

"Overdose can lead to death" needs to be revised; the LD50 via oral route is 600 mg/kg. This is several hundred times greater than the 150 mg dosage suggested. The statement is redundant and adds nothing to the article anymore than "Caffeine overdose may cause death" belongs in the caffeine article.

"Ephedrine can also lead to damage of the brain receptors over a period of high usage; this is because of its constant action on the neurochemicals."

Ephedrine does not act upon neurotransmitters. Nor does it damage "brain receptors"; Rather it may cause down regulation of the receptors it acts upon. There is no evidence that ephedrine "damages" "brain receptors".

Much of this article is unscientific and many of the claims made are unsupported speculation. The article even admits as much

"formication (may be possible, but lacks documented evidence)"

The article lists a side effect which it admits "lacks documented evidence"; Wikipedia is not a place to post original research about theoretical undocumented effects that may possible occur in some people.

Also the article seems biased by superfluous commenting that adds nothing to the article. For example "Ephedrine (EPH) is a sympathomimetic amine similar in structure to the synthetic derivatives amphetamine and methamphetamine" Why were amphetamine and methamphetamine mentioned and not another substituted amphetamine?

"As with other phenylethylamines, it is also somewhat chemically similar to methamphetamine, although the amphetamines are more potent and have additional biological effects."

- you mean ephedrine is a substituted phenylethylamine, ephedrine ISNT an amphetamine, you could say its related in that they are both substituted phenylethylamines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.206.68.100 (talk) 07:04, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Ephedrine is a substituted amphetamine; this sentence seems to imply that ephedrine is not in fact an amphetamine. "it is also somewhat chemically similar to methamphetamine" The chemical difference between ephedrine is a single oxygen atom; "somewhat" and "similar" are very vague descriptions of an unvague chemical structure.

"In mice, stereotypical behaviour was both easily induced by administration of ephedrine and it's primary alkaloids and reversed when serotonin antagonists were administered." WTF does this mean?

"Promethazine manages nausea and ephedrine fights the ensuing drowsiness. Commonly referred to as the Coast Guard cocktail, ephedrine may still be available for prescription for this purpose." ephedrine *is* available without prescription; this sentence seems to suggest that ephedrine "may" be availible by prescription and/or is a prescription drug.

Also please note that citation 4 is referenced in the following sentence "ADRs associated with ephedrine therapy include:[4]" However that citation does not support most of the listed side effects; The side effects listed should each have their individual citations as the article now misleadingly implies that the list of side effects presented is supported by the work cited.

"Wellbutrin is an example of an antidepressant with an amphetamine-like structure similar to ephedrine. It has a similar action but also releases serotonin from presynaptic clefts." Why is this random statement nested in the second paragraph of the "Contraindications" section?

"Ephedrine should NOT be used at any time during pregnancy unless specifically indicated by a qualified physician and ONLY when other options are unavailable.[7]" The capital "NOT" and "ONLY" are unprofessional. The citation given is also incorrectly formatted and most likely not appropriate as a reference.

Except for "Legality in USA" and possibly some of the "Chemistry" section, this article needs to be completely re-written with factual --- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agalmic (talk • contribs) 19:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC) "Furthermore, ephedrine and pseudoephedrine (which are found in various legal over-the-counter drugs) can be manufactured into methamphetamine, a dangerous illicit drug that is growing in popularity due in part to the availability of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine".

This contribution seems very anti drugs. Saying that its dangerous is subjective, and growing due to the availability does not make sense either. Demand for drugs is there, and availabilty of illegal drugs is there. It has nothing to do with drug stores.

The clinical information, regarding contraindications and actual way to administer the drug iv is not accurate. Whilst it is not a preferred drug, it can definitely be used in the delivery room or during caesarean sections. It is used with caution in patients receiving SNRIs but as far as I understand this has not been listed as a contraindication - as opposed to MAOIs which IS a contraindication. The legality, availability issues need to include the rest of the world, as it seems to me that some people forget that what happens in the US does not apply elsewhere.Hsinfu (talk) 13:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Now that ephedrine is banned in OTC supplements and will probably soon be a controlled substance, lets all switch to synephrine.
 * Ephedrine was never banned in OTC supplements. Ephedrine alkaloids were. Ephedrine HCL has always been legal and is sold in many OTC supplements. Check your local Wal-Greens. Ephedrine HCL will never be banned because it is controlled by super power drug industries. :) Once the Ephedra ban went into effect, many "bodybuilding" supplement companies just started making Ephedrine HCL products like the big drug companies have been doing for years. Volksgeist 19:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

What's the difference between ephedrine and "ephederine HCL"?

 * I believe that means Hydrochloride.
 * Is this form legal? I've seen it advertised. The article isn't very clear about the legality issue.
 * Yes, check out "Bronkaid" at your local WalGreens. They are numerous other OTC Ephedrine HCL products. On the internet, products such as VasoPro are popular as well. Volksgeist 19:39, 26

March 2006 (UTC)

By many drugs you need Hydrochloride for the preparation. It is a kind of carrier. More it is not. It does not change the effect of the drug. --Fackel 00:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the hydrochloride form is legal; just along with the freebase form, or whatever other forms there are. When drugs are illegal, it's the actual drug, not the form it comes in. --Ddhix 2002 20:32, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * but don't forget the analog law, which got all the research chemicals off the market despite their legality . . .  --Heah 20:34, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * What's the "analog law"? Techelf 10:16, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the ephedrine ban has been struck down in the US. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/04/15/national/a013653D58.DTL

Further, there are two optical isomers of ephedrine with roughly the same effects; D-ephedrine and L-ephedrine. D-ephedrine is the only one that can be used to make meth, and it was NEVER sold in the US; most of the world's supply goes to meth production in Mexico.

L-ephedrine, the kind you buy here, cannot be made into meth.

Also, HCl means it's a salt / solid.
 * Actually, either kind can be made into meth.

 * To elaborate - The Levo-Ephedrine isomer can be structurally reduced into Levo-Methamphetamine (like that found in Vicks Vapor Inhalers), while Dextro-Ephedrine can be reduced into the Dextro isomer of Methamphetamine (the active, 'fun,' isomer). So, technically, yes; they can both be structurally reduced into methamphetamine (but the Levo isomer is inactive, so you can't get high from it). However, there is a trick called racemization. Assuming one has L-Ephedrine (otherwise useless in clandestine laboratories), it can easily be put through a racemization to obtain the racemic Dextro,Levo-Ephedrine (D,L-Ephedrine). This can be applied to both Ephedrine & Pseudoephedrine. Check it out for yourself: Chemical Abstracts, Volume 23, Pages 3452-4 (1929), or US Patent 2,214,034 for another racemization. D,L-Ephedrine (or D,L-Pseudoephedrine) can be structurally reduced into D,L-Methamphetamine - which is plenty active. So, yes, it can be made into meth. :) --Ddhix 2002 04:49, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Something I forgot. The D,L-Methamphetamine (racemic methamphetamine) is weaker, and produces a different 'high' than straight D-Methamphetamine. D-Methamphetamine is much more potent, and prefered among methamphetamine addicts above the racemic mixture. If one were to convert L-Ephedrine into D,L-Ephedrine, and then into D,L-Methamphetamine, then one could also separate the D-Methamphetamine from the L-Methamphetamine so that there is the pure optical isomer of D-Methamphetamine. Don't believe me? See: GB Patent 508,757 - Process for the Production of Optically Active Phenylisopropylamines by T.H. Temmler. Have fun:) --Ddhix 2002 12:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

New effects

 * User 155.245.123.4 decided to add a whole load of stuff to the sidebar which doesn't seem verifiable to me. Side effects of ephedrine apparently include:

"Increased thoughts tingling sensations (positive) plesurable goosebumps massive increase in music appreciation full stomach feeling (erradicates your appetite increase cognition [...] happiness intense euphoria increase cognition speed increase in creative ideas"

I've not ever heard of any of these side effects... "massive increase in music appreciation"? Sounds more like cannabis to me. Thoughts?

 * Update Well, nobody's commented on this so I'm going to revert the above changes to something sensible. --henryaj 17:35, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Whoever it was that added that information is obviously an ephedrine user (and a rather dumb one). Everything is verifiable, but it is not encyclopedic in the very least. It could be added in much better terms - but this is not erowid.org, so something a bit more scientific would be nice. Increased thoughts - yes, its a stimulant. Tingling sensations - yes (it's a entactogen - they tend to do that); pleasurable goosebumps are a part of it, along with hair being raised; it increases feeling and touch, simply put. Full stomach feeling - ephedrine is a stimulant, they tend to have an anorectic effect. Increased cognition - stimulants tend to (temporarily) make you think more clearly. Happiness - ephedrine increases dopamine levels. Intense euphoria - dopamine levels. Increase cognition speed - ephedrine is a stimulant. Increase in creative ideas - ephedrine is a stimulant. And for your last concern, the one about music, yes it does increase an appreciation for music. But it's not an actual 'music appreciation,' not like marijuana would cause. Music increases dopamine in rats (Brain Res. 2004 Aug 6; 1016(2): 255-62 from Sutoo D., Akiyama K) - anything that increases dopamine even more while you are already on something that increases dopamine is going to be pleasurable. Smoking a cigarette, having an orgasm, and listening to music would all increase the pleasure of ephedrine, as they all tend to up the dopamine in one's brain. 'music appreciation' is simply a bad descriptor, its more like 'more pleasure from music.' I hope these explanations help whatever decision is made about this. --Ddhix 2002 12:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Dopamine levels? No.  Serotonin might be related to euphoria.  Perhaps endorphins.  But dopamine does not produce pleasure.  As for ephedrine's effects people must be taking crazy doses to get all those enumerated above.  Listed study about music and dopamine in the brains of rats makes no mention of pleasure, only improvements in blood pressure.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 102.65.54.41 (talk) 16:55, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

You can actually find an explanation of ephedrine is, what it will do and what it is used for at www.ephedra.cc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.239.90.70 (talk) 16:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Ddhix, thank you so much for your help - you evidently are far more knowledgeable than me! I've added your corrected (side-)effects to the drugbox on the page - do take a look and make whatever changes you see fit. Your comment about the compound effect of dopamine is very interesting - I wasn't aware of that. Thanks again for your insight. --henryaj 17:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Under "Adverse Effects", it lists "anorexia" as an Adverse Drug Reaction (ADR). I am going to delete that, as Anorexia Nervosa doesn't really qualify as a "drug reaction". If the original author was referring to the anorectic effect of the drug (as opposed to the disorder), the reference is redundant, as "appetite loss" is already listed as an ADR. Unless there is a reference somewhere indicating that use of the drug actually leads to Anorexia Nervosa, I think the use of the term "Anorexia" in this section of the article is misleading and confusing. -- Cat 12:05, 8 January 2007

Anorexia means loss of appetite, it doesnt specificaly refer to anorexia nervosa or any other disease. Saying that ephedrine causes anorexia is quite correct 121.209.49.58 (talk) 22:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC) Jonathan, Adelaide, Australia

Changed the Molecule Picture
The old one was ok, but I changed it for a differently designed molecule.

The current one in use (the one I just made):

The old one:

They are the same molecule (obviously), but the old one looks much different. The old one would due just fine, but the one I just made (and used to replace the old one) is more visually related to other phenethylamine articles. See amphetamine, methamphetamine, cathinone, methcathinone, etc to see what I am talking about. This is the preferred way to look at these molecules, as it makes more visual sense when comparing them. I am going to go through some other articles that are similarly visually confusing, and create more molecule pictures that will make more visual sense when comparing certain chemicals (like say, comparing ephedrine to methcathinone), See?.--Ddhix 2002 19:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Effects
This article doesn't explain the effects of the substance on the body in plain language. Ephedra is described as stimulating the brain, increasing heart rate, causing nervousness, constricting blood vessels, and expanding bronchial tubes. Are these effects attributable to ephedrine? -- Beland 17:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Legality
While the article states that ephedrine is legal in the US, this publication from the DEA seems to suggest otherwise (http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/abuse/2-chem.htm). The listed threshold for ephedrine and "salts, optical isomers, and salts of optical isomers" is 0kg for domestic use. The page has not been updated since 2001. Can anyone provide more info?--24.16.148.75 16:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Ephedrine HCL is sold over the counter under the names Vasopro, Bolt etc. Depending on the manufacturer.

Why just 'Legality in the US'? Wikipedia isn't a site just for Americans. Wilston 17:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

 * True we should also be refrencing the international commuminity. I am not sure wikipedia just translates the same article throughout all languages it serves. If it did I can imagine alot of bored people worldwide on this and many many articles. To get to the point of legality though someone should update the new legislature (I cant find but heard on the news?...strange but I cant seem to find it in search engines, perhaps someone else can) that Ephedrine's United States position has just changed to legally 10 MG of ephedra alkoloids per dose etc etc. I cant seem to find this but sure enough it was on the news! My informant didnt bother to record it for me since I have been a regular ephedrine user since I lost 86 pounds with a personal trainer and dietician in 1996 before the ban was mucked up by the supreme court. My local dealer (completly legal) and pharmacudical company I purchase from also confirms this but I cant get documentation to show for it. Also there are quite a few conspiracy theories to this drug that should be entered into the article regarding the possibility of pharmaceudical intent to monolpolize the drug because of its effectivness that should also be invoked for proper article faction. -Tabooooooooooo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.121.0.16 (talk) 03:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Unreferenced sources
The "Neurotoxicity of ephedrine" section of the article does not have any references at all. Take this sentence, for example:

"Depletion of dopamine levels were roughly 25% with ephedrine, whereas dextroamphetamine reduced levels by nearly 75%."

That means absolutely nothing. It doesn't mention timescales, or permanance – nothing. In fact, the entire 'illicit use' section fails to cite sources. I'll put a notice up to this effect. --henryaj 18:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

 * There is definitely no such thing like neurotoxiticy of neither ephedrine nor amphetamine. Adderall has been prescribed 37 million times in 4 years as you can read in the Adderall article. So please help to stop this fudding. I therefore would suggest to remove the whole section "Neurotoxiticy" --134.155.99.41 23:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

pseudoephedrine?
The article states: "In traditional Chinese medicines, the herb ma huang (Ephedra sinica) contains ephedrine as its principal active constituent." I note that the site "Herbal Medicine Materia Medical" [] says:
 * "When studies were done using the whole plant, only a slight blood pressure elevation was found. This led to the discovery that pseudoephedrine, another one of the alkaloids present, slightly reduces both heart rate and lowers blood pressure, thus avoiding the side-effects that often accompany the use of ephedrine."

It goes on to say that pseudoephedrine is just as effective as a bronchodilator. In that case, would it not be correct to say that pseudoephedrine is yet another "principal active constituent" (since the whole plant is used to prepare ma huang)? In that case, this sentence should perhaps be amended to include pseudoephedrine? As I am only checking sources myself, I have no ax to grind here, but I would like to know the facts, unbiased by either side of any sort of debate. (I do note that the Wiki article on pseudoephedrine does confirm that its source originally was indeed ma huang although it may be synthetically produced now.) NaySay 15:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ethedrine?
Is Ethedrine the same drug? I've found this spelling in a UK book so is/was this the spelling in the UK?? Could someone please clarify, thanks. Malick78 (talk) 10:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

 * It should be ethamphetamine, I believe, if you follow the naming system. Mephedrone >> Ephedrone, Methedrine >> Ethedrine. Enix150 (talk) 00:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

List of medications that still use Ephedrine or Pseudoephedrine
Would such a list be useful added into this article? Or do you think adding such a list would be unethical? Greggor88 (talk) 03:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

This would not be unethical although if you need some to add to the list there is bronchial inhibitors such as primatine mist, bronch-eze (ehedrine). There is Advil Cold and sinus, allergen products and sinual products (pseudoephedrine). Notice you need to present Identification now to purchase regular pharmacudical drugs as these now to monitor how much you are buying and who is buying in a certain time frame. This is importnat because yes you can spin these drugs into Meht which is life threatening or someone with an unknown heart condidtion of any kind. All these are over the counter and the two drugs dont work in the same way as you need to research which ailment/energy/weight loss need you are looking for. Some of the the drugs (bronch-exe, blue ribbon etc...) are sold over the counter in your local truck stop (which could contain the unneeded drug guisifimen, used for bronchilation). These use to be known to truckers looking to nbe alert and/or wrestlers looking to drop to their proper weight class over night with the drug and garbage bags, also known as the wrestlers recipe...aka speed or white crosses cause they have a white plus sign engraved into them) are sold at your everyday truck stops and gas station. Some choose not to participate though since the limbo ridden bans by the supreme court. reminding us of course that this drug was sold in ATLEAST 25 MG alkoloids in products by twin labs and ripped fuel, diet fuel, and labled as Thermogenical formulas not so long ago. I can say that at this date and this point most of these gas stations are selling the last of their 12.5 MG ephedrine and 200 mg guisifemin pills because they are forced to sell the small liquid dosage of all caffine no ephedrine bronch-eze and instead of the 24 bubble packets of 12.5 pills (which an average ephedrine taker needs 4 pills twice a day to get the amount of ephedrine they are used to) to bubble packs of 12 which also contain 12.5 mg ephedrine. So technically the cost of ephedrine for the averager user just doubled by decreasing the packaging size by half but no the price. -Taboooooooooo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.121.0.16 (talk) 04:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Bias
This article states the rarity of certain side effects with no citation in many places. I think that it may have been compromised by somebody who either sells or is a fan of ephedra.24.65.95.239 (talk) 02:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Problem: The article states, "Ephedrine promotes modest short-term weight loss,[15] specifically fat loss, but it is not recommended for this, and is ineffective in the long term." Someone needs to REREAD the abstract cited at [15] (http://www.andjrnl.org/article/S0002-8223(05)00288-9/abstract). It says specifically, "the results were inconclusive." There is nothing that says ephedrine--or any other supplement evaluated--was "ineffective in the long term", so this sentence needs to be revised to read more true to the article.

THe study cited was extremely poor and did not fit with the caliber of other NIH studies. It read more like a child's book report than a scientific study. See for yourself. Maybe I'm not special so I can't see the full article, perhaps the reference is there but you know its kind of bull that our taxes fund the research that we then cannot read because we don't have a lexisnexis or university privileged access account. Seems wrong. Long live aaron schwartz. Anyway:

"Evidence of their efficacy in stimulating weight loss is inconclusive at present. Although there are few examples of safety concerns related to products that are legal and on the market for this purpose, there is also a paucity of evidence on safety for this intended use. Ephedra and ephedrine-containing supplements, with or without caffeine, have been singled out in recent alerts from the Food and Drug Administration because of safety concerns, and use of products containing these substances cannot be recommended." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.222.18.19 (talk) 19:38, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Critical Ingredient in Crystal Meth
Some areas of the US describe Crystal Meth production as "epidemic", and ephedrine is a core component to that illegal drug. I could find no reference to this anywhere in the article.Jonny Quick (talk) 05:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)Jonny Quick

 * you can make "crystal meth" from different substances with different method. Ephedrine is just one way to make it and not a key substance. Large scale "crystal meth" production is done with P2P and nitroethane not ephedrine. You can find this information in pharmaceutical and medical literature.--DerElektriker (talk) 09:58, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I have read that in Afghanistan methamphetamine production (mostly for export) has recently (unsure of year) switched largely over to ephedrine sourced from ephedra sinica, since it is a native plant (easily grown?), rather than using 'expensive imported pharmaceuticals' (pseudoephedrine) as a source material, for cost and availability reasons. I could not point you to the source though. It may have been somewhere on Wikipedia or in some news source. 2603:6011:1D00:2C49:314E:CE39:BF6B:B9E7 (talk) 03:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Mechanism of Action section not working
Does anyone know why the "Compounds with decreasing α-receptor affinity" table is not working? Myoglobin (talk) 00:15, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * it is a gallery not a table. i played with it but couldn't figure it out.  the formatting is definitely messed up per Template:Gallery and Help:Gallery tag. I cut it from there and pasted it here til it can be fixed.  Sandwiching with nowiki tags for now.

-- Jytdog (talk) 02:25, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I figured it out, kind of, after coming across an example on another page. Couldn't figure out the overall caption or formatting, but cobbled something together, til somebody more competent fixes it fully. Jytdog (talk) 08:02, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

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Improvements are needed
User:Glidermaven I agree that the whole article, and after that the lead, needs improving. If you want to improve this, the most solid way to proceed is improve the body with MEDRS-sourced content, then update the lead to reflect the body. I will try to find some time to work on this too. Jytdog (talk) 00:33, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

 * Reverting all my edits and accusing me of edit warring is not inspiring me in any way to work with you.GliderMaven (talk) 00:47, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * removing drugs.com was just silly, and you did so much at once that there was nothing to do but revert. In any case, the body is the place to start.   Jytdog (talk) 00:54, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * No, the lead is messed up. Mostly this edit caused it: . It wasn't fantastic before that, but it was clearly awful afterwards.GliderMaven (talk) 01:26, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Your removing drugs.com / The American Society of Health-System Pharmacists is exceedingly disruptive. You also need to use high quality sources. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:32, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The lead contains stuff that is not in the body (like decongestant use). The whole article needs work. As I said I will try to work on that, and once the body is good i will update the lead. i won't respond to further dramah but will be happy to discuss the content etc.  Jytdog (talk) 01:37, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

 * The lead fails to define the topic, it contains material not in the article, it fails to summarise major material that is in the article. It doesn't even classify the drug as a stimulant- that should be in the first sentence.

 * If you want reasonably good examples of leads for comparison check out caffeine or cocaine. Also actually read WP:LEAD. GliderMaven (talk) 05:01, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Added that it is a stimulant to the first sentence. This however is a very common medications unlike caffeine and cocaine. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:20, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

I wonder however if the lede doesn't to strongly imply it is only used in spinal anesthesia? While that would be the most common case, are we sure it isn't used in ketamin-anesthesia of those with severe CVD? Continuous noradrenaline infusion is more common, but is ephedrine not used at all? (Just an example) Carl Fredrik   💌 📧 08:30, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Not used for severe CVD as far as I am aware. The drugs.com source provides a good overview. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 14:59, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

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Ephedrine and sea sickness
I've worked to add a few sentences on the use of ephedrine with promethazine to alleviate sea sickness. Although this remedy seems to be widely used (and indeed is my personal experience) it is curiously hard to find a good citation - google searches turn up links to fishing, boating, and oceanographic blogs, webpages, etc. I write to note that the general lore is that this combination is rather specific - the ephedrine acts with the other drug to alleviate sea sickness, beyond just as a stimulant to counteract the side effects of the other drug. As is noted by some of the informal citations, it is a somewhat magical combination. But I can't find a good citation for this specific result. It is widely known as "the coast guard cocktail"; but seems hard to find a good citation for that specific name and remedy. I am not quite sure I agree with the present phrasing, but recognize the citation problem. Bdushaw (talk) 21:13, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Here for example is a blog entry by a professional oceanographer: Arctic GEOTRACES Week One Irrespective of what the books say, this specific combination is in wide use by oceanographers (but that's hardly a citation, to be sure!). Bdushaw (talk) 21:22, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * We have some sources that say it does not add any benefit to other motion sickness treatments.
 * But yes very little evidence of any quality on this topic. It simple has not been well studied. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:54, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Recreational use
Why is the recreational use section about the synthesis of methamphetamine from ephedrine? Shouldn't it be about the recreational use of ephedrine? PlasmidPhononKid (talk) 05:27, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

 * i second that 2603:6011:1D00:2C49:314E:CE39:BF6B:B9E7 (talk) 03:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Merge proposal
Pseudophedrine should be merged in to Ephedrine. They are different isomers of the same molecule. Algotr (talk) 00:43, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

 * Different isomers means they are different molecules. They have different effects, histories, etc.
 * Isomers of drugs usually have their own articles. 2601:14F:8300:1FE3:B815:256B:D1AC:EB36 (talk) 06:00, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge. These are two different stereoisomers, which results in the two having different chemical properties and pharmacological uses. The extent of study on each of them is substantial enough to warrant coverage separate articles, particularly because the use of these two chemicals is so different and the literature on each is so substantial that each could stand on its own. — Red-tailed hawk  (nest) 01:07, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ephedrine


text:
User:Netluck

I am 153477 wiki'er.

title: User:Netluck


text:
Playback (Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers album)

Playback is a box set compilation by Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, released in 1995. It contains popular album tracks, B-sides, previously unreleased outtakes, and early songs by Petty's previous band Mudcrutch.

The first three discs of this collection are Petty's singles with and without the Heartbreakers, arranged in rough chronological order. Disc One covers the years 1976-81, Disc Two covers 1982-87 and Disc Three covers 1989-93.

Disc four brings together 15 B-sides that were never officially released on Tom Petty or Heartbreakers albums. Some of these seem like throwaways, while others are miscellaneous live tracks usually found on singles' flipsides.

Discs five and six offer 27 recordings that include tracks previously unreleased or unavailable on CD, dating back to Petty's early days with his pre-Heartbreakers band Mudcrutch.

A companion VHS home video, later released on DVD, featured the band's most popular music videos.

Disc one: The Big Jangle

 * 1) "Breakdown" (Tom Petty) – 2:42
 * 2) "American Girl" (Petty) – 3:33
 * 3) "Hometown Blues" (Petty) – 2:12
 * 4) "Anything That's Rock 'n' Roll" (Petty) – 2:24
 * 5) "I Need to Know" (Petty) – 2:24
 * 6) "Listen to Her Heart" (Petty) – 3:03
 * 7) "When the Time Comes" (Petty) – 2:45
 * 8) "Too Much Ain't Enough" (Petty) – 2:57
 * 9) "No Second Thoughts" (Petty) – 2:39
 * 10) "Baby's a Rock 'n' Roller" (Petty, Mike Campbell) – 2:52
 * 11) "Refugee" (Petty, Campbell) – 3:22
 * 12) "Here Comes My Girl" (Petty, Campbell) – 4:25
 * 13) "Even the Losers" (Petty) – 3:59
 * 14) "Shadow of a Doubt (A Complex Kid)" (Petty) – 4:25
 * 15) "Don't Do Me Like That" (Petty) – 2:42
 * 16) "The Waiting" (Petty) – 3:59
 * 17) "A Woman in Love (It's Not Me)" (Petty, Campbell) – 4:23
 * 18) "Something Big" (Petty) – 4:44
 * 19) "A Thing About You" (Petty) – 3:32
 * 20) "Insider" (Petty) – 4:23
 * 21) "You Can Still Change Your Mind" (Petty, Campbell) – 4:16

Disc two: Spoiled & Mistreated

 * 1) "You Got Lucky" (Petty, Campbell) – 3:36
 * 2) "Change of Heart" (Petty) – 3:19
 * 3) "Straight into Darkness" (Petty) – 3:47
 * 4) "Same Old You" (Petty, Campbell) – 3:30
 * 5) "Rebels" (Petty) – 5:19
 * 6) "Don't Come Around Here No More" (Petty, Dave Stewart) – 5:05
 * 7) "Southern Accents" (Petty) – 4:44
 * 8) "Make It Better (Forget About Me)" (Petty, Stewart) – 4:23
 * 9) "The Best of Everything" (Petty) – 4:03
 * 10) "So You Want to Be a Rock 'n' Roll Star" (live) (Roger McGuinn, Chris Hillman) – 3:30
 * 11) "Don't Bring Me Down" (live) (Gerry Goffin, Carole King) – 3:52
 * 12) "Jammin' Me" (Petty, Campbell, Bob Dylan) – 4:08
 * 13) "It'll All Work Out" (Petty) – 3:11
 * 14) "Mike's Life/Mike's World" (Campbell) – 0:40
 * 15) "Think About Me" (Petty) – 3:45
 * 16) "A Self-Made Man" (Petty) – 3:00

Disc three: Good Booty

 * 1) "Free Fallin'" (Petty, Jeff Lynne) – 4:16
 * 2) "I Won't Back Down" (Petty, Lynne) – 2:57
 * 3) "Love is a Long Road" (Petty, Campbell) – 4:08
 * 4) "Runnin' Down a Dream" (Petty, Lynne, Campbell) – 4:23
 * 5) "Yer So Bad" (Petty, Lynne) – 3:06
 * 6) "Alright for Now" (Petty) – 2:02
 * 7) "Learning to Fly" (Petty, Lynne) – 4:03
 * 8) "Into the Great Wide Open" (Petty, Lynne) – 3:43
 * 9) "All or Nothin'" (Petty, Lynne, Campbell) – 4:07
 * 10) "Out in the Cold" (Petty, Lynne) – 3:40
 * 11) "Built to Last" (Petty, Lynne) – 3:58
 * 12) "Mary Jane's Last Dance" (Petty) – 4:33
 * 13) "Christmas All Over Again" (Petty) – 4:15

Disc four: The Other Sides

 * 1) "Casa Dega" (B-side of "Don't Do Me Like That," issued November 1979) [Petty / Campbell] – 3:37
 * 2) "Heartbreakers Beach Party" (B-side of "Change of Heart," February 1983) [Petty] – 1:57
 * 3) "Trailer" (B-side of "Don't Come Around Here No More," March 1985) [Petty] – 3:15
 * 4) "Cracking Up" (B-side of "Make It Better (Forget About Me)," May 1985) (Nick Lowe) – 3:34
 * 5) "Psychotic Reaction" (Count Five garage rock cover live at Lawlor Events Center, Reno, NV, November 23, 1991; from the UK-only "Too Good to Be True" 1992 maxi CD single) (Kenn Ellner / Roy Chaney / Craig Atkinson / John Byrne / John Michalski) – 4:49
 * 6) "I'm Tired Joey Boy" (live at Lawlor Events Center, Reno, NV, November 23, 1991; from the UK-only "Too Good to Be True" maxi CD single) (Van Morrison) – 3:42
 * 7) "Lonely Weekends" (live at Oakland Coliseum, Oakland, CA, November 24, 1991; from the UK-only "Too Good to Be True" maxi CD single) (Charlie Rich) – 2:47
 * 8) "Gator on the Lawn" (B-side of "A Woman in Love (It's Not Me)," July 1981) [Petty] – 1:35
 * 9) "Make That Connection" (B-side of "Jammin' Me," April 18, 1987) [Petty / Campbell] – 5:04
 * 10) "Down the Line" (B-side of "Free Fallin'", October 1989) [Petty / Lynne / Campbell] – 2:53
 * 11) "Peace in L.A." (Peace Mix) (B-side of "Peace in L.A.," May 26, 1992) [Petty] – 4:43
 * 12) "It's Rainin' Again" (B-side of "Refugee," January 1980) [Petty] – 1:32
 * 13) "Somethin' Else" (live at Hammersmith Odeon, London, England, March 7, 1980; B-side of "Even the Losers" in Australia) (Sharon Sheeley / Eddie Cochran) – 2:05
 * 14) "I Don't Know What to Say to You" (B-side of "Listen to Her Heart," August 30, 1978) [Petty] – 2:28
 * 15) "King's Highway" (live at Stephen J O'Connell Center, University Of Florida, Gainesville, FL, November 4, 1993; B-side of the German-only "Something in the Air" as well as the UK-exclusive "Mary Jane's Last Dance" maxi CD single, March 1994) [Petty] – 3:30

Disc five: Through the Cracks

 * 1) "On the Street" (1973 Mudcrutch outtake) (Benmont Tench) – 2:10
 * 2) "Depot Street" (1974 Mudcrutch outtake) [Petty] – 3:26
 * 3) "Cry to Me" (1974 Solomon Burke cover by Mudcrutch) [Bert Russell] – 3:06
 * 4) "Don't Do Me Like That" (1974 Mudcrutch version) [Petty] – 2:47
 * 5) "I Can't Fight It" (1974 Mudcrutch outtake) [Petty] – 3:00
 * 6) "Since You Said You Loved Me" (1974 outtake featuring Al Kooper, Jim Gordon, and Emory Gordy) [Petty] – 4:40
 * 7) "Louisiana Rain" (original 1975 version featuring Al Kooper, Jim Gordon, and Emory Gordy) [Petty] – 4:22
 * 8) "Keeping Me Alive" (from 1982 "Long After Dark" sessions) [Petty] – 2:59
 * 9) "Turning Point" (from 1982 "Long After Dark" sessions) [Petty] – 2:52
 * 10) "Stop Draggin' My Heart Around" (demo from "Hard Promises" 1981 sessions) [Petty, Campbell] – 4:11
 * 11) "The Apartment Song" (demo from "Southern Accents" 1984 sessions) [Petty] – 2:37
 * 12) "Big Boss Man" ("Southern Accents" 1984 sessions) [Al Smith, Luther Dixon] – 2:41
 * 13) "The Image of Me" (Conway Twitty cover; "Southern Accents" 1984 sessions) [Wayne Kemp] – 2:33
 * 14) "Moon Pie" ("Let Me Up [I've Had Enough]" 1986 sessions) [Petty] – 1:05
 * 15) "The Damage You've Done" (country version from "Let Me Up [I've Had Enough]" 1986 sessions) [Petty] – 3:16

Disc six: Nobody's Children

 * 1) "Got My Mind Made Up" (from 1986 "Let Me Up (I've Had Enough)" sessions; Bob Dylan wrote different lyrics for his "Knocked Out Loaded" version) [Petty] – 2:51
 * 2) "Ways to Be Wicked" (from 1986 "Let Me Up (I've Had Enough)" sessions) [Petty, Campbell] – 3:27
 * 3) "Can't Get Her Out" (from 1986 "Let Me Up (I've Had Enough)" sessions) [Petty] – 3:11
 * 4) "Waiting for Tonight" (from 1988 sessions featuring The Bangles on backing vocals) [Petty] – 3:30
 * 5) "Travelin'" (1988 outtake from an aborted Heartbreakers album) [Petty] – 3:15
 * 6) "Baby, Let's Play House" (Elvis Presley cover from July 1993 "Mary Jane's Last Dance" sessions") (Arthur Gunter) – 2:33
 * 7) "Wooden Heart" (Elvis Presley cover from July 1993 "Mary Jane's Last Dance" sessions) (Bert Kaempfert, Kay Twomey, Fred Wise, Ben Weisman) – 2:09
 * 8) "God's Gift to Man" (August 1992 outtake from an aborted Heartbreakers follow-up to "Into the Great Wide Open") [Petty] – 4:18
 * 9) "You Get Me High" (August 1992 outtake from an aborted Heartbreakers follow-up to "Into the Great Wide Open") [Petty] – 2:48
 * 10) "Come on Down to My House" (from July 1993 "Mary Jane's Last Dance" sessions) [Petty] – 3:05
 * 11) "You Come Through" (demo from 1986 "Let Me Up (I've Had Enough)" sessions featuring Lenny Kravitz overdubs recorded in August 1995) [Petty / Campbell] – 5:15
 * 12) "Up in Mississippi Tonight" (Debut 1973 A-side for Mudcrutch) [Petty] – 3:28

Notes
 * In 2015, both Through the Cracks and Nobody's Children were released on digital purchasing and streaming platforms as standalone releases. As of 2020, only Nobody's Children is still available to digitally purchase and stream.

Personnel
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers

 * Ron Blair (most tracks 1976-81, plus "The Best of Everything") – bass guitar, acoustic guitar ("Baby's a Rock 'n' Roller"), backing vocals ("Heartbreakers Beach Party" and "It's Rainin' Again")
 * Mike Campbell (all tracks) – lead guitar, rhythm guitar, bass guitar, squeeze box, mandolin, backing vocals ("Heartbreakers Beach Party", "It's Rainin' Again" and "Learning To Fly"), keyboard bass ("Don't Come Around Here No More"), Dobro ("Southern Accents"), koto ("It'll All Work Out"), percussion ("Mike's Life/Mike's World"), keyboards ("All or Nothin'")
 * Howie Epstein (most tracks 1982-93) – bass guitar, backing vocals, acoustic lead guitar ("Big Boss Man"), spoken word vocal (via telephone) ("Peace in L.A.")
 * Steve Ferrone – drum overdub ("Ways to Be Wicked")
 * Stan Lynch (most tracks) – drums, percussion, backing vocals, lead vocal ("Psychotic Reaction")
 * Tom Petty (all tracks except disc 2 track 14) – lead vocals, backing vocals, spoken word vocals, whistling, rhythm guitar, lead guitar ("Mary Jane's Last Dance" and "Peace in L.A."), bass guitar, piano, electric piano, harmonica, percussion
 * Benmont Tench (most tracks) – piano, electric piano, keyboards, backing vocals, crash cymbal ("It's Rainin' Again"), string synthesizer ("Don't Come Around Here No More")
 * Scott Thurston – six-string bass guitar (disc 3 track 13), guitar (disc 4 tracks 5, 7 and 15), slide guitar (disc 4 track 6)

Additional musicians

 * Phil Jones – percussion (disc 1 tracks 16-21, disc 2 tracks 1-4 and 8, disc 3 tracks 1-2, 4-5 and 13, disc 4 tracks 2 and 8 and disc 5 tracks 8 and 10), drums (disc 3 tracks 1-2 and 4-5, disc 4 track 10), backing vocal (disc 4 track 2)
 * Jeff Lynne – bass guitar (disc 3 tracks 1-4, 7-8, 10-11, and 13 and disc 4 track 10), guitar (disc 3 tracks 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, and 10-11), keyboards (disc 3 tracks 1-3, 7-8, and 11), backing vocals (disc 3 tracks 1-3, 5, 7-11 and 13 and disc 4 track 10), piano (disc 3 tracks 2 and 5), guitar synthesizer (disc 3 track 4), drum machine (disc 3 track 7), sampler (disc 3 track 7), percussion (disc 3 track 13)
 * George Drakoulias – percussion (disc 5 tracks 8-9 and disc 6 tracks 1-5, 9 and 11), drums (disc 5 track 11)
 * Phil Seymour – backing vocals on "Breakdown" and "American Girl"
 * Donald "Duck" Dunn – bass guitar on "Hometown Blues", "A Woman in Love (It's Not Me)" and "Stop Draggin' My Heart Around"
 * Jim Keltner – percussion on "Refugee", "The Best of Everything" and "Love is a Long Road", drums on "Love Is a Long Road" and "Christmas All Over Again"
 * Stevie Nicks – backing vocals on "Insider", "You Can Still Change Your Mind" and "The Apartment Song" (demo)
 * Molly Duncan – saxophone on "Rebels" and "Make it Better (Forget About Me)"
 * Bobbye Hall – tambourine on "Rebels"
 * Dean Garcia – intro bass guitar on "Don't Come Around Here No More"
 * Marilyn Martin – backing vocal on "Don't Come Around Here No More"
 * Dave Stewart – electric sitar, synthesizer and backing vocal on "Don't Come Around Here No More", guitar on "Make it Better (Forget About Me)"
 * Jack Nitzsche – string arrangement on "Southern Accents"
 * Gary Chang – synthesizer on "The Best of Everything"
 * Garth Hudson – organ on "The Best of Everything"
 * Richard Manuel – backing vocal on "The Best of Everything"
 * Jerry Hey – horn arrangement on "The Best of Everything"
 * George Harrison – acoustic guitar and backing vocal on "I Won't Back Down"
 * Robbie Blunt, Kevin Dukes, and Jimmy Rip – acoustic guitars on "Christmas All Over Again"
 * Tim Pierce – electric guitar on "Christmas All Over Again"
 * Scott Humphrey – synthesizer on "Christmas All Over Again"
 * Mitchell Froom – harpsichord on "Christmas All Over Again"
 * Shelly Yakus – backing vocals on "Heartbreakers Beach Party" and "It's Rainin' Again"
 * Jimmy Iovine – backing vocals on "Heartbreakers Beach Party" and "It's Rainin' Again", telephone ring (sound effect) on "Cracking Up"
 * Carlene Carter – spoken word vocal (via telephone) on "Peace in L.A."
 * John Sebastian – baritone guitar on "I Don't Know What to Say to You"
 * Charlie Souza – bass guitar on "Don't Do Me Like That" (Mudcrutch version)
 * Al Kooper – organ and piano on "Since You Said You Loved Me" and "Louisiana Rain"
 * Emory Gordy – bass guitar on "Since You Said You Loved Me" and "Louisiana Rain"
 * Jim Gordon – drums on "Since You Said You Loved Me" and "Louisiana Rain"
 * Susanna Hoffs, Debbi Peterson, Vicki Peterson and Michael Steele – backing vocals on "Waiting for Tonight"
 * Lenny Kravitz – drums, bass guitar, backing vocal and spoken word vocal on "You Come Through"
 * Tom Leadon – lead guitar and backing vocal on "Up in Mississippi Tonight"

VHS/DVD

 * 1) "Here Comes My Girl" (1979)
 * 2) "Refugee" (1979)
 * 3) "The Waiting" (1981)
 * 4) "A Woman in Love (It's Not Me)" (1981)
 * 5) "Insider" (1981)
 * 6) "You Got Lucky" (1982)
 * 7) "Change of Heart" (1982)
 * 8) "Don't Come Around Here No More" (1985)
 * 9) "Jammin' Me" (1987)
 * 10) "I Won't Back Down" (1989)
 * 11) "Runnin' Down A Dream" (1989)
 * 12) "Free Fallin'" (1989)
 * 13) "A Face in the Crowd" (1990)
 * 14) "Yer So Bad" (1990)
 * 15) "Learning to Fly" (1991)
 * 16) "Into the Great Wide Open" (1991)
 * 17) "Mary Jane's Last Dance" (1993)


text:
Talk:Mek

"* Mats Ekman " I have removed, as non-notable. Rich Farmbrough 13:56, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mek


text:
Home Fries

Home Fries is a 1998 American comedy-drama film directed by Dean Parisot, and starring Drew Barrymore and Luke Wilson. The script was originally penned by writer Vince Gilligan for a film class at New York University.

Plot
The film opens at Burger-Matic, where Henry Lever orders a milkshake at the drive-thru. At the window, he tells the attendant, Sally Jackson, that his wife knows about their affair. She asks him if he has also told his wife about her pregnancy. On his way home, he encounters a ferocious wind. It turns out to be a Cobra attack helicopter, which runs him off the road. In a panic, he flees through the woods and drops his heart medication. At an outdoor chapel, he sits on a bench as the helicopter hovers in front of him. The pilot, Angus Montier, shoots at the ground near him despite the protests of his copilot and brother, Dorian. The shots scare him enough to cause a fatal heart attack.

Throughout the attack, Dorian and Angus hear the chatter of Sally and her coworkers. Likewise, they hear the helicopter pilots on headsets. The next day, the police inform Beatrice Lever that Henry has died. She appears shocked and crestfallen, when Dorian and Angus arrive. It quickly becomes clear that she encouraged her sons to scare him to death. She is also furious about his affair, and wants revenge on his mistress. Angus and Dorian are worried that the people they heard on the radio might have overheard enough to connect them to his death. They quickly deduce that Burger-Matic is the only location close enough to have been on the same frequency. Angus goads Dorian into getting a job there to ensure that no one is wise to their crime.

Sally is heartbroken at the news about Henry. At work, Dorian bonds with her quickly. He gives her a model helicopter for her baby, and he explains that he and Angus fly them as reservists for the National Guard. She asks him to accompany her to lamaze class, since she doesn't have a partner. Eventually, he takes her to the base to see the helicopter that he flies. As she sits in the cockpit, she tells him about Henry.

Knowing that his mother is still furious about Henry's affair and that Angus would hurt Sally if he knew her identity, Dorian frantically tries to keep the truth from his family. When Angus discovers Sally's identity, Beatrice visits her under the pretense of making amends. Dorian is terrified of what Angus might do out of a misplaced loyalty to their crazy mother. Sure enough, he arrives at Sally's house in the attack helicopter. She, Dorian, and Beatrice escape in a truck. He eventually forces them to stop on the road. Beatrice pretends to be unaware of what is going on and leaves the truck. Dorian gradually convinces Angus to stop his attack.

The stress of the chase triggers Sally's labor, and Dorian drives her to the hospital. After she has a boy, he talks to him. He struggles to explain how they are related, and he tells him that he is lucky to have the best mother in the world.

Cast

 * Drew Barrymore as Sally Jackson
 * Catherine O'Hara as Beatrice Lever
 * Luke Wilson as Dorian Montier
 * Jake Busey as Angus Montier
 * Shelley Duvall as Mrs. Jackson
 * Kim Robillard as Billy
 * Daryl Mitchell as Roy
 * Lanny Flaherty as Red Jackson
 * Chris Ellis as Henry Lever
 * Blue Deckert as Sheriff
 * Mark Walters as Deputy
 * Shane Steiner as Soldier in Jeep
 * Theresa Merritt as Mrs. Vaughan (Final Film Role)
 * Jill Parker-Jones as Lamaze Instructor
 * Morgana Shaw as Lucy Garland

Critical reception
The film received mixed reviews from critics. It currently holds a 31% rating on Rotten Tomatoes. The website's critics consensus reads, "Screenwriter Vince Gilligan's mordant sense of humor strikes a discordant note in Home Fries, a romantic caper full of empty calories." Roger Ebert gave the film a mixed review, writing, "Home Fries is not a great movie, and as much as I finally enjoyed it, I'm not sure it's worth seeing two times just to get into the rhythm. More character and less plot might have been a good idea. But the actors are tickled by their characters and have fun with them, and so I did, too."

title: Home Fries


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Smart One

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 17:18, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Smart One
Stub about a 'modern sect' with a sward (sic) or pencil as its symbol. Can anyone substantiate this? Radiant! 14:02, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Google Groups and Google Web turn up nothing bearing a resemblance to this. And combining Brahma and Allah in a single article is a bit of a giveaway.  Google Web turns up something more apropos, however.  Delete and replace with a Redirect to Smart 1. Uncle G 15:56, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)
 * Cruft, oh my! I concur with Uncle G however as it is a likely misspelling (alternate spelling?) of the science satellite SMART 1. HyperZonk 18:31, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, it's a joke. Wyss 20:17, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, possible hoax. Megan1967 02:59, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that's a funny little joke to delete... --Idont Havaname 03:29, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Toy Watches

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 17:23, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Toy Watches
One single does not make a band notable. Radiant! 14:02, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete, seems below the horizon without more info. Wyss 20:18, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable - defunct band with only 1 independent single release. Megan1967 02:54, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)


text: User talk:207.232.169.25

title: User talk:207.232.169.25


text:
Derek and Clive (Live)

Derek and Clive (Live) is the debut comedy record recorded by Derek and Clive, drunken alter-egos created by comedy duo Peter Cook and Dudley Moore. The double act began as a private joke between the two of them at the Electric Lady Studios, as a way of easing the tension of their 1973 Broadway show Good Evening. Originally, the record was never intended for release, but when bootleg copies of the recordings proved popular, Cook decided there was money to be made and, padding the record out with live material recorded at the Bottom Line in New York City, the album was released in 1976. The record was very nearly called Derek and Clive (Dead).

The sleeve notes give a flavour of the production of the record:

"Peter Cook and Dudley Moore were appearing on Broadway in the show "Good Evening" when they first happened upon two brilliant new talents. Derek and Clive were working at the time in the toilets of the British Trade Centre. Cook and Moore were quick to see that they had made a major discovery and after much persuasion, including a packet of Craven A and a bottle of Tizer, Derek and Clive agreed to perform at the Electric Lady Studios. With growing assurance they appeared in front of a small, invited audience (Dudley Moore). The record you have bought is a mixture of the two evenings. Once they had mastered which end of the microphone to talk into, Derek and Clive gained enormously in confidence. Their method is basically a stream of unconsciousness, a mixture of Dylan Thomas and Mae West, with overtones of Goethe. At a time when British influence is declining throughout the world, Derek and Clive represent welcome evidence of what this great country could be. They are a ray of hope on a darkening horizon. Their philosophy is both an inspiration to youth and hope for the senile. On this record they discuss fully and frankly the major problems confronting a confused world. Not since Isaac Newton sat in a bath and discovered that apples could stun Archimedes, has such a fully fledged Weltanschauung emerged. Since the recording, Derek and Clive have been besieged by offers, Vegas, The London Palladium, Fiji but they prefer the simple, natural life of the toilets. "There's a certain rhythm there", says Derek. "You know where you stand", states Clive. One cannot but sympathise with them. The seemingly glittering world of 'Show business' with its broken marriages, drugs and enormous rewards leaves them uninterested. We can only admire their straightforward point of view. Poets? satirists? philosophers? comedians? social commentators? Derek and Clive sum it up more succinctly. "Just a couple of cunts" is their frank self-appraisal."

Track listing

 * 1) The Worst Job I Ever Had
 * 2) This Bloke Came Up To Me
 * 3) The Worst Job He Ever Had
 * 4) Squatter And The Ant
 * 5) In The Lav
 * 6) Little Flo
 * 7) Just One Of Those Songs
 * 8) Winkie Wanky Woo
 * 9) Bo Duddley
 * 10) Blind
 * 11) Top Rank
 * 12) Cancer
 * 13) Jump

title: Derek and Clive (Live)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Theological fatalism

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP. jni 11:21, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Theological fatalism
Logical fallacy that allegedly proves there is no free will. Radiant! 14:05, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC) Withdrawn. Radiant! 15:45, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * First: That something is a logical fallacy does not make it a candidate for deletion. Many encyclopaedia entries deal with the illogical positions of many groups of people.  Second: This is not a logical fallacy, because it doesn't prove what you state.  It proves that omniscience and free will are logically incompatible, quite a different thing altogether.  This is a widely discussed philosophical and theological topic, that a quick Google Web search would have turned up many instances of (such as ), since it is even listed by its common name.  What this article needed was , not  .  Being a dead-end article is not a reason for deletion. Keep. Uncle G 15:49, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)
 * Okay, vfd withdrawn. It just sounded too nonsensical to me but expanding sounds fair. Keep. But I hold that the argument as written isn't valid :) Radiant! 16:02, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, yeah, this was a big topic during the higher criticism of the 19th century. Even without the theological scarf it gets discussed. Article isn't up to academic standards, though, which is prolly why it got tossed here. Wyss 20:15, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, article needs expansion. Megan1967 03:01, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Demonstrative

Kaplan?
David Kaplan's essay "Demonstratives" has been cited more than 1,700 times (see google scholar); it is a staple in the philosophy of language. This probably ought to be reflected in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.106.230.219 (talk) 00:05, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Europe 2-way distinction
Most European languages only make a two-way distinction between demonstratives, ...

Well at least Spanish makes a three-way distinction, and I have a feeling Catalan and Portuguese may do as well.

Spanish: Adjectives: this: este esta estos estas that: ese esa esos esas that over there: aquel aquella aquellos aquellas

Pronouns: this one: éste ésta éstos éstas that one: ése ésa ésos ésas that one over there: aquél aquélla aquéllos aquéllas — Hippietrail 14:05, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

more than 3-way distiction
Are there any languages that make a more than 3-way distinction? If so, what is the maximum amount of distinctions found so far? --JorisvS 11:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I seem to recall seeing that some Inuit languages have up to 20-way distinctions. I'll try to find a reference. --Makerowner 14:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

According to QI (not the most reliable source, I know), some Inuit languages have 32 demonstrative pronouns. 78.16.184.191 (talk) 17:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

English grammar
I got rid of the template because this article is not just English and therefore it should not be on here.

Yonder
Who decided that yon/yonder are no longer valid English? I was under the impression that yonder was a demonstrative as well. "That one over there, far away, but still in view" is what yonder means. So, wouldn't it be a third demonstrative to go with this and that? Just asking. Peter1968 (talk) 14:28, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Fersher. I don't see why not, and I've altered the article to reflect that. It's definitely out of style in most parts, but it's in the Oxford Dictionary under "archaic or dialect", and not under "Middle English." Otherwise I suppose it would be in some etymological subsection, and not given a proper entry. In any case, native English speakers will all understand it, and even use it occasionally (though perhaps with some sarcasm). --Heyitspeter (talk) 07:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yonder's use as a distal demonstrative is definitely preserved in Southern American English, as the article there asserts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.223.116.200 (talk) 18:26, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

So the Oxford Dictionary has yon/yonder under "archaic or dialect". So what? That doesn't mean they have died out in British English - unless you say that all dialect has died out. The people living in London and the South East might never use them, but many dialects in the North of England do - both yon and yonder - in their traditional sense. I used them myself as a lad, and although I generally no longer do (I moved South), I still hear them used when I go back North.

Unfinished?
What does "In the scandinavic Languages are only one pronoun" mean? __meco (talk) 10:30, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Lamb of God
"This is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world." I don't think the word that in the sentence is a demonstrative. A demonstrative would be "that Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world". Disagreements? DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Babble?
Pardon me, but this passage has got little to do with pronouns: (qv.) "Use of a demonstrative ("spacial adjective") to describe a child, instead of a name, suggests distancing, thus indicating the speaker may be lying."

"The speaker may be lying"? This sounds an awful lot like psycho-babble to me. It is perfectly possible to lie using other pronouns, and also tell the truth using a demonstrative.

--Sparviere (talk) 00:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Offensive examples
Do the examples in the upper right text box really represent the best possible examples? Would someone propose better content?PalMD (talk) 04:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I dont believe it would. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.110.147.184 (talk) 19:14, 22 October 2010 (UTC) shit men this gonna be bad

Tenses with "dead" languages
Not sure what the convention is regarding languages like Latin, but in the sentence "Latin had several sets of demonstratives, including hic, haec, hoc; ille, illa, illud; and iste, ista, istud (note that Latin has not only number, but also three grammatical genders)." there is a muddle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grcaldwell (talk • contribs) 09:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Medial in Japanese?
The article claims, without citing a source, that Japanese has a proximal/medial/distal trichotomy. I'd like to see an authoritative source for this claim. I've no doubt that ko/so/a has been so represented in texts of Japanese as a foreign language or in grammar books put out by hacks, but I have trouble believing that it has been stated in a well-informed analysis of the language. -- Hoary (talk) 22:54, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

demonstrative
'demonstratives are deictic' is like saying 'transfers are metaphoric'. (Pamour (talk) 09:47, 6 September 2012 (UTC))

Medial in Bengali?
In this article, it is written that Bengali has a proximal/medial/distal. As a Bengali, I disagree that as there is no medial thing. Nayeem the D-kgo (talk) 12:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Demonstrative


text: File:Derek and Clive come again sleeve.jpg