text:
Siba

Siba or SIBA may refer to:

Places

 * Siba, Luocheng County, Guangxi, China, a town
 * Siba State, a princely state of India until 1947
 * Siba subdistrict, Basra Governorate, Iraq
 * Šiba, a village in Bardejov District, Slovakia
 * Siba Castle, a Sassanid castle in Kukherd District, Iran

People

 * Siba culture, a Bronze Age culture in China from the 14th to 11th century BC
 * Sutanphaa or Siba Singha, king of Assam from 1714 to 1744
 * Hajrudin Krvavac (1926–1992), Bosnian film director nicknamed "Šiba"
 * Siba Mtongana (born 1984), South African chef, host of the TV show Siba's Table
 * Siba Shakib, Iranian/German filmmaker, writer and political activist
 * Siba (singer), Brazilian singer Sérgio Roberto Veloso de Oliveira (born 1969)
 * Rhizlane Siba (born 1996), Moroccan track and field athlete
 * Walter Siba, the third Anglican Bishop of Ysabel, Melanesia

Acronyms

 * SIBA (retailer), a Swedish home electronics retail chain, now Net On Net
 * SIBA Elektrik G.m.b.H, also SIBA Electric Ltd, former manufacturers of the Dynastart combined starter motor and alternator
 * Society of Independent Brewers, an association representing brewing companies in the United Kingdom
 * Southern Independent Booksellers Alliance, a trade association representing booksellers in the United States

Other uses

 * Siba (GCHP Stone Run Afternoon Tea), Best in Show winner of the 2020 Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show
 * Siba, a prototype character who did not make it into the Virtua Fighter video game series

title: Siba


text:
Talk:Giles Coren

Discussion
This article was proposed for deletion January 2005. The discussion is archived at Votes for deletion/Giles Coren. Joyous 17:47, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

I read a couple of news articles about Coren winning the Bad Sex award; I hadn't heard of him before. Basically, from the quotation that he used, I figured he had to be the worst writer of all time, or someone with a profoundly weird sense of humor. I visited this article to try to find out more, but I can't find anything to answer my question: was his book ACTUALLY bad, or INTENTIONALLY bad? This makes a big difference in the conception of the author (the difference between being a hack and being a witty humorist and cunning linguist), so IMO some examples, or at least descriptions, of his fiction writing should be provided. --IQpierce 9:19 CST, Dec 3, 2005

Just FYI - I believe the Bad Sex award is usually bestowed on books that are otherwise of fairly solid literary quality, but have awkward/bizarre/horrible descriptions of sex. It's not a literary equivalent to the Razzies. NickBurns 16:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

From the article
Removed from the article and copied here for reference, comments purporting to be from the subject himself: Badgerpatrol 03:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

"i just want to say that i never said anything of the sort about the fat duck or heston blumenthal, and have never heard of sporty thievz. do you think you could rub that stuff out? ta, giles and i have no idea what that `evil child' thing is about. i've never tried to kill a cat. nor has my old man written that i have. and the film programme is called 'movie lounge' not Film Review. and it's finished. and it's Gideon Garter not Carter. and i stopped doing that last year."

UK's Most Hated Man?
I can't find any reference to there being such a poll. In any case it needs references if it is true. Segat1 14:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Haha, you seriously don't believe that do you? Haha! beats tony blair by 11 thousand votes.. lulz. removed this two lines

 * He was voted "The UK's Most Hated Man" in both 2006 and 2007, beating out Tony Blair by 11,000 votes and being the only man to 'win' in two consecutive years.
 * He probably wrote this

still hilarious. Keep vandalising please! Neverender 899 20:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

well there are some anti-coren facebook groups, one with 1000s of members 82.20.226.161 (talk) 20:59, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Prose vs bullet points
I have done my utmost to de-shoddify poor old Giles' page, but I have to say it was clearly much better in continuous prose, which was how I originally wrote it. It looks like a shopping list now. In fact, I found this so annoying I may have been forced to make some stuff up. Is there any way the old page can be resurrected, and the new info added in? Cheers. Erich von falkenhayn 12:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Moving a note from an anon......
here's a note that was on the article page;

giles coren here. listen, i don't want to sign up and have no idea how one goes about changing entries. but there's so much wrong stuff here, and it keeps appearing in pieces about me in the papers by lazy arse teenage work exp hacks who think everything on here is true. i've never written comedy for radio ro anything else, never met punt and dennis or guy debord. i've never acted in anything and wasn;t in this cushing film. i've never heard of paul london or eaten or reviewed his tacos. i'm not a fan of harrogate town. didn't even know they had a football team. it's not like it's important, but you might as well change it if you can. it's flattering in a way that some loon keeps putting wrong things up about me.

...i'll make the changes mentioned above pending sourcing.... Purples 11:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

He's not gay
Guys, there is no evidence that he is gay - i can't find that article anywhere where he allegedly says it and there is no other online evidence. In fact, if you read his articles they really come across as not gay since he uses the term gay pejoratively all the time AND and in at least one he referred to a girlfriend, and in another that he wasn't gay:

girlfriend reference [last july]: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/giles_coren/article2072582.ece

not gay reference: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1147-2306867,00.html 89.100.205.6 (talk) 15:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC) bren

My mistake - of course he cannot be gay - funny that him and his boyfriend snogging the face off each other in Vikkage Bar last week and signing autographs - yeah funny that (213.205.194.12 (talk) 23:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC))

yeah, that's hilarious. yawn. evidence needed, you know the rules blahblax (talk) 18:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

fact remains the link was there for his article where he mentions it but it was continually removed so find it strange when someone asks for evidence/link then when there is one it gets removed duh! yawn indeed - suggests sleep?(212.22.3.8 (talk) 12:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC))

the only link that was on it was to his column and section in The Times. Nowhere here did it say he was gay - show us any link or evidence and it'll go back in!!! YOU added in stuff about him seeing Lee Dennison, a casting agent seemingly. You have added this onto about six different profiles and I pointed out all six on your talk page. Either you know this Lee Dennison or you are Lee Dennison. Either way you live in a fantasy land. blahblax (talk) 23:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Married to Sue Perkins?
I think not.

Matthew, London E6

 * It seems very unlikely: while Google brings up lots of joint references to the two because of TV programmes they've hosted together, there's nothing to suggest they're married. And the Wikipedia page on Sue Perkins says she's a lesbian. So I've reverted the edit. Barnabypage (talk) 17:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Subs complaint worth a mention?
His email complaining about subs is getting a lot of attention: in the Guardian and there's a thread on Guido's blog. Because of the Gruniad's coverage I wondered if it was worth a mention - it certainly shines a light on the man himself. If you agree please add the edit. Mimi (yack) 22:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

deffo agree, it should be valid as it shows the man as he is. 78.105.249.239 (talk) 21:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Having a section with quotes that all originate in one email is pointless - there's not even a quote from any of his articles but there are these quotes from the emails. It looks stupid. I removed the quotes section and instead wrote a line about it in the 'Criticism' section, with the link there for anyone who wishes to read the emails. If you want to the expand on the issue, it should be under the criticism section and leave out the quotes. blahblax (talk) 22:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Poland, Jews, Holocaust
This article is not about Poland, Jews or the Holocaust. Its about Giles Coren. Can we stay on topic please. I edited that section again - it now states what he said, and what the response was. I think that is enough - if people want to read about the events in question, they can read the relevant articles. blahblax (talk) 22:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. There seems to be a single Polish user who is bent on making this the main theme of the article. Wikipedia is not a newspaper and a recent controversy now takes up most of the article. The same individual even included links to a petition condemning Coren, giving a whole new meaning to WP:POV. JdeJ (talk) 11:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Please note that likewise, WP isn't a vehicle for flattery and one-sided accounts of a person's achievements alone. Controversy, criticism and and counter-thesis always have a place in WP, if accurately cited. The list of such people on WP is endless, check Robert Kilroy-Silk as one example: No direct comparison intended, is just an example of another WP entry with a comprehensive and well-cited section on controversy and criticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mranistire (talk • contribs) 11:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with what you say and I don't defend Coren in any way. However, there's always the risk of giving undue weight to recent events. This is what Coren has been in the news for most recently and of course it should be mentioned, but I don't think it should be the major part of the article.JdeJ (talk) 12:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Glad we can discuss this in a civilized manner. Point taken about recent events gaining priority. That said, this person seems to be going out of his way to gain notoriety and to my mind is more famous for his profane language than anything else he has ever done, and this controversy is going to stay with him his whole life. Please note that several other individuals on WP are more known for a single controversy than anything else they've done in their lives. So for what its worth, my view is that this article isn't weighted too far one way or another. Do we care that he got a first from Oxford? Not really, and I'd guess he put that (un-cited?) fact there himself. But let's keep that in, together with everything else.

Recent addition

I removed this extraordinarily irrelvent addition: The Polish people who lost their brothers and sisters in Auschwitz in 1940, and who are deeply angered by this controversy suggest Coren should listen closely to the words of a poet who says: "And whosoever shall be found / Without the Soul for getting down / Must stand and face the hounds of hell / And rot inside a corpses shell"

I don't think Coren himself has been implicated in the holocaust. Note also as an aside that many Germans died in Auschwitz, but this does not in itself absolve Germany of the sin of involvement. I'm not saying Poland was involved, just that you need a better argument. And not one posted on Giles Coren's page on Wikipedia. Richiau (talk) 12:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Richiau, how many ethnic Germans died in Auschwitz?--Jacurek (talk) 18:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no such thing as an "ethnic German". Hundreds of thousands of German nationals died, however. This is not relevant to Giles Coren. Richiau (talk) 14:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually there is such a thing as an ethnic German, just as there are ethnic Italians, Greeks, Arabs, Japanese, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.150.203.96 (talk) 21:12, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, regardless of the Coren vs. the Poles controversy, I think we're wandering slightly off the point - the daft addition of Michael Jackson's "Thriller" lyrics adds nothing to this article. Absurdtrousers (talk) 15:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Remember that many Gentile Poles also died at the German concentration camps, so the suggestion that Poles were in some way complicit with or responsible for the atrocities carried out by the hands of the Germans at such camps is very distressing and offensive to Poles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.227.50 (talk) 23:07, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Clean up Aug 08
Article is finally looking well, i removed the bullet points and replaced with prose. and tidyied up the criticism section which was too split up i felt. Reads far better now. Nothing removed from the criticism section, just so you know. blahblax (talk) 13:09, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

removing the neutrality dispute tag now - think its pretty NPOV blahblax (talk) 17:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Edit war Jan 09
Article has returned to a state of edit war. Critic(s) of Coren, especially those involved with the Polish controversy, continue to add heavy criticism, and push POV. Likewise, defender(s) of Coren continue to add heavy praise for him and have even deleted perfectly reasonable citations from credible sources. Wikipedia code of conduct encourages as much citation as possible - it is vandalism to remove it. I found the article in a state biased in favour of the subject. It has been extremely anti-subject and off-subject in the past. Lets try to keep some balance and accuracy here. Wikipedia is neither a hate forum nor a PR outlet.Globestrobe (talk) 09:15, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Facebook
Why have the URLs to the Facebook group page and online petition against Coren been removed? Isn't it reasonable to include such URLs? It's up to the reader to decided whether or not they agree with the content of a (external to Wikipedia) URL. 82.20.227.11 (talk) 00:54, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it reasonable to include such URLs? No. See WP:External links. THF (talk) 01:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Polish official protest
Has Coren or his publisher reacted in any way? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:03, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes. Here it is.
 * Last week, in a piece about the persistence of far-right populist politicking in Central Europe, I wrote in passing that the Poles remain in denial about their responsibility for the Holocaust. How gratifying, then, to see so many letters in The Times in the subsequent days from Poles denying their responsibility for the Holocaust.
 * (I particularly enjoyed the one from Barbara Tuge-Erecinska, the Ambassador of the Republic of Poland to the United Kingdom. Do write again, ambassador, and this time tell us about the Kielce pogrom of 1946, 15 months after the war finished. Most of my readers probably don't know about the widespread killing, by Poles, only by Poles, not by anyone else, of Polish Jews returning from the camps after their liberation.)

Total ignorance. Not worth any comments:)--Jacurek (talk) 22:27, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow. What really surprises me (per The Economist) is how The Times can allow such rubbish to be unanswered. Do we know if the Press Complaints Commission has taken any action? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 04:57, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The PCC could not do anything. They can only act if something is said against an individual or a racial group. Poles are neither. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.227.50 (talk) 00:43, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

European Court of Human Rights
The Federation of Poles in Great Britain are now pursuing this matter in the European Court of Human Rights, as the UK is failing to protect the Polish ethnic minority from such offensive comments.

Can someome add this to the page? If I try to amend this page, my edits usually get deleted! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.226.161 (talk) 21:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Cite, please. Sounds frivolous and non-notable unless the ECHR acts, in which case it will be an interesting free speech issue. THF (talk) 21:20, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Here is the cite: See http://www.zpwb.org.uk/en/Current_Matters —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.226.161 (talk) 21:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

 * A cite that isn't a press release, please. Wikipedia is not a bulletin board. THF (talk) 21:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

A reference could be made to Article 14 of the European Convention of Human Rights - the press release is just background information. I've not checked out if ECHR has info on onging cases online - that may be relevant to add as a reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.226.161 (talk) 21:35, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The Press Release is obviously unsuitable, but it does refer to an Early Day Motion - perhaps Hansard, or some other parliamentary publication, would have something on this you could cite? Little grape (talk) 22:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

 * The early day motion is already in the article, and even that is a questionable decision. These sort of pro forma protest gestures are publicity stunts and aren't notable unless there is a chance of legal consequence. THF (talk) 22:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

In answer to the above comment. It appears to me that the fact there seems to be no legal address against Coren's article is precisely the point here. What you refer to as "publicity stunts" to me are the normal mechanics of the legal and political processes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.226.161 (talk) 08:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe the European Court of Human Rights reference is 2921/09 for this case.

Cornish controversy
Until we have some examples of people expressing offence in Cornwall, there's no way we can seriously say there was/is a controversy. The editor's assertion that "Coren's abrasive style, caused offence" is 100% POV -

 * "On August 13th, 1999, Coren wrote in The Times.
 * I hate the Cornish. I hate their poxy language which they make such a fuss
 * about. I hate their fancy foreign food - like clotted cream - which makes the
 * place stink, and I hate their fatuous demands to be treated as a nation.

 * The article, typical of Coren's abrasive style, caused offence in Cornwall to Cornish people. "

Chumchum7 (talk) 20:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Would he like to know that the mainland area of Cornwall is consolidated from six local autority districts to just one? It means that New Forest (district) is equally entitled to it's own nationhood. So is Lambeth (borough). In English, we will call Cornwall a Super County. --Stat-ist-ikk (talk) 12:20, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Boozing
He seemed to get pissed in pretty much every one of the Supersizers programmes with Sue Perkins, and then there's this recent food review from The Times (though I use the phrase "food review" very loosely). Should this get a mention in the article? 86.133.54.189 (talk) 14:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * To be fair, most of the periods of time in which they immerse themselves lack clean drinking water, making beer, wine, and such amongst the only viable choices. In most cases it is small (or weak) ale or watered down wine. As to his drinking habits outside the time machine, I've never dined with the man, but from his reviews he seems to enjoy drinking while going out. But who doesn't. And as for including it in the article, I see little relivance unless the fact is mentioned in outside sources.--Eion (talk) 15:35, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

"Child abuse comment"
Since no one thinks Coren's joke meant that he was actually planning on raping and murdering his neighbor, references to "child abuse" and "child rape" violate NPOV. And it's far from clear that the event in question is even encyclopedically notable. THF (talk) 14:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Mediawatch is a serious institution and made a serious point about a serious subject that Coren referred to in public. Am pretty sure that is encyclopaedic. I can agree that "child abuse" in the subheading is as misleading as "Twitter" is. Am happy to meet you half way with "Mediawatch controversy" or similar, but I think you'd agree the word "tweet" isn't really encyclopaedic either. Similarly, I don't think WP refers to 'Googling' or 'Facebook poking' either... Tks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 15:31, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

What's the objection to this?
They are engaged to be married on April 24, 2010 at the Anglican St. Bride's Church, known as "The Journalists’ Church" , on Fleet Street, London.

 * a confused newbie editrix, xx --SculleryWench (talk) 21:01, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Do you have a cite other than Twitter feeds? THF (talk) 21:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * well, it should appear here in a little bit: http://www.stbrides.com/services/index.htm as all weddings are publicly announced. SculleryWench (talk) 22:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Generally, we prefer secondary sources. A way to avoid editing controversies is to restrict ourselves to what reliable sources have written about the subject, rather than to perform original research and mine twitter feeds and primary sources for a story. What you added was likely accurate, but best to wait until there's a formal wedding announcement in the newspapers. THF (talk) 22:52, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * ah, but was the other editor questioning the authenticity of the twitter accounts? otherwise, what's with the "PR" accusation? they're not selling anything... SculleryWench (talk) 22:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

 * That editor doesn't seem to like Coren very much. He or she was not supposed to be so rude to you. I don't agree with his reasoning, but don't disagree that the material wasn't Wikipedia-appropriate as sourced.  The second time he removed it, he did cite the WP:SELFPUBLISH rule.  THF (talk) 23:13, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's all take another read of WP:No personal attacks. For the record, my response to this query about my "accusation", my "rudeness" and that I don't " seem to like Coren": I work to WP standards, not to some emotional agenda. I didn't make an accusation, I edited out what I said appeared to be an attempt at PR. It would have been rude of me not to have explained. Sorry, but a brand new one-issue editor adding diary entries about a personal event appears to be a clear case of self interest. The knowledge that a website will soon post the information reinforces the appearance of self-interest. I'm not convinced encyclopaedia readers really care about this information in the first place. Editors are meant to be vigilant about this, especially in biographical articles. It is most definitely worth referring to WP:COI in this case, which is why I put it onto the editor's talk page. Apologies if posting that rule upset you. Note the difference between appearance of impropriety and impropriety per se. But the WP:SELFPUBLISH rule is also connected to this. When this society event has become newsworthy, go ahead and add it. By the way, as far as I'm concerned you can delete the Mediawatch section: I did not add that, I edited for accuracy, and removed jargon such as 'Tweet'. I maintain Wikipedia considers it bad practice to use relatively recent jargon words like 'Twitter' and 'Google' too liberally, even if wikilinks help to explain the terms. By that token, we'd have an article on logical positivism with wikilinks but without an explanation of terms. Which really would be funny. Thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:33, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

 * All brand new editors are going to be one-issue editors where their first edit is concerned, and it hardly assumes good faith that an edit adding information was self-promotional -- that would imply that no new editor could edit an article about a living person or active organization or current event. Perhaps SculleryWench is Giles Coren's sister, but it's more likely she's a fan who saw that she knew more about the subject than a birds-eye-view article did. THF (talk) 13:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Cumbrian controversy
There is nothing currently in the article about his statement about the Cumbrian mass murderer. He "tweeted" that he should read a copy of his new book "Beginner's Guide to Anger Management", but them he "re-tweeted" and posted an apology. A quick "google" will find relevant press articles to quote as sources for this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.69.98.206 (talk) 20:33, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Anti-Polish?
Per WP:LEAD, it is not the case that the anti-Polish controversy in 2008 is the most famous thing that Coren has ever done. Three cites for this in the lead looks like trying to make a point. He has caused controversy on a number of occasions, and the Polish controversy in 2008 is covered in depth later on in the article.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 08:07, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately there looks like some POV pushing here. The Polish controversy in 2008 is not what Giles Coren is best known for. The edit history suggests some degree of obsession with this.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 12:25, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I've come in response to the 3O request. Although it looks like there's been some edit-warring, I can't see an active dispute on the talkpage. I'll be back with an opinion shortly, in any case. --FormerIP (talk) 18:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Well, this is an easy one to answer if an answer will solve it. Giles Coren is not "best known for his anti-Polish prejudice", and this should not be stated in the lead unless it can be backed up by a highly reliable source which says this is what he is best known for. No such source will be found.
 * Coren is best known within the UK and almost unheard-of elsewhere, as far as I am aware. In the UK, he is known as a food critic. If he once made the Danish press for being a dick, that does not change the situation. Compare the case of Louise Mensch, for example, who is not "best known for making false accusations against a former newspaper editor", even though that is the only reason the name might mean something to people who live in a country like Denmark.
 * On the other hand, the material in the body of the article looks OK to me. --FormerIP (talk) 22:15, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It looks like our friend is back again. Let's be clear about this, Coren is a UK journalist and food critic whose views have set off controversy on a number of occasions. Saying "he is known for anti-Polish prejudice" in the WP:LEAD is undue weight, and looks like trying to make a point, which is not what BLP articles are about.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 08:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Coren made the Polish press for being a polonophobe. This is his only claim to (in)fame in Poland. Thus, in the context of Poland and the Polish diaspora, the statement that Giles Coren is "best known for his anti-Polish prejudice" is correct. 81.96.62.131 (talk) 22:11, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Television credits
Someone might like to use Coren's British Film Institute filmography to expand/source the section on his television work. ← Randomnonsense   talk 22:18, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

"Incorrect" super-injunction?
The article contains the following: "anonymised privacy injunction (often incorrectly described as a super-injunction)". There's no immediate source for this, and indeed Coren's tweet made no attempt to characterise what type of injunction it may have been, so it seems at best tangential. Is a real distinction being made here (and if so, is it being made correctly?), or is someone just being sniffy about informal terminology? 84.203.32.213 (talk) 00:40, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

 * The word "superinjunction" was coined by Alan Rusbridger to describe the Trafigura situation, where the media could not mention even the existence of the injunction. Subsequently, the media used the term to describe injunctions that could be mentioned, such as the ones involving footballers. TSE is what the law buffs prefer to call an anonymised privacy injunction, since its existence can be mentioned (it is on BAILII here). The report here makes a distinction between superinjunctions and anonymised injunctions.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 05:52, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

 * That's the gist of what I'd surmised. But which was Coren actually referring to?  Not only is there no citation for this, Coren's comment makes no reference to it, or indeed any real identifying information, so I have no idea as to how one would ever provide one.  And does not making the distinction rise to the level of "incorrectness"?  All in all, this seems like a fruitless digression from the narrative of the article.  84.203.32.213 (talk) 06:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

 * The injunction that caused the problem for Giles Coren on Twitter was definitely TSE, but he uses only the word "injunction" to describe it.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:20, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Right, gotcha, the Telegraph articles establishes the connected, after the fact. Sorry, paying insufficient attention.  I think your last edit addresses my concerns about the "tangent" -- thank you.  84.203.32.213 (talk) 18:43, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

His latest controversy about Portuguese food
Do not forget to add his latest controversy about Portuguese food. Aparently his article in The Times, in which he bashed Portuguese food by saying "it's the worst in the world, Polish and Irish food does not count" provoked thousands of messages being directed at him from angry Portuguese.

What's the problem with this chap? Does he have a serious addiction to nicotine, and is trying to quit smoking? Usually this kind of big/bad mouth attitude is typpical of someone who is trying to quit a very bad smoking addiction, and is craving for cigarrettes. LOOOOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.240.193.10 (talk) 00:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

 * He seems to say this sort of thing to cause controversy. However, a web search of Google News does not show up any major coverage of this incident, so it would have problems with WP:WEIGHT. There is some coverage here. Coren seems to think that it is amusing.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:00, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

There is cover of the "incident", but it's mostly in Portuguese. That's why I found his wiki page. The article in English is from an English language paper over news in Portugal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.84.187.28 (talk) 09:19, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

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Now it's Plymouth's turn
For a scathing review by Giles Coren. People should realise by now that he does this sort of thing to stir up a controversy, so it isn't notable enough for the article.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:48, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

More Twitter Controversy & Anti-Polish activies
It seems he was caught creating a second Twitter account, pretending to Polish, just to shower himself in anti-Jewish remarks. https://www.indy100.com/article/giles-coren-twitter-alternative-account-pavel-pilnik-jonathan-nunn-wife-antisemitism-8703366 Definitely worthy of the controversies section, as this reaffirms his past behavior & fixation on demonizing "Pollacks". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C0:C801:9FA0:65A5:48BD:696C:335B (talk) 21:58, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
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Recent edits
I reverted your reversion of the IP editor since the content was sourced to tabloid journalism which should not be used for a BLP. It also seems UNDUE/NOTNEWs given that this was at-the-time(tweet) reporting - but the sourcing quality was sufficiently alarming for me to revert on those grounds. Icewhiz (talk) 12:49, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:55, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Giles Coren.jpg

Chinese controversy?
https://london.eater.com/2018/10/4/17931548/giles-coren-the-times-kaki-restaurant-review-racism

Thoughts? -Chumchum7 (talk) 18:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

 * Hard to believe it, but he's also in for allegations of racism and sexism with regard to his comments about Meghan Markle meeting a primatologist. It's all over the non-RS blogosphere and Twitter, but also made The Scotsman at least https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/dani-garavelli-meghan-and-harry-proxy-targets-in-culture-war-1-4976412

 * Given this article flatters him with: According to a paper published in Journalism Practice by Dr. Peter English and Dr. David Fleischman, Coren is a "a sharp, witty columnist who can write with tongue in cheek". According to English's study the average grade in Coren's reviews in The Times was 6.86. According to Coren his average score is actually 6.3 but should be 5, however he produces "no more than half a dozen really bad" reviews a year

 * ...it seems like a cherry-pick and rather out of balance with other general allegations in RS of his "only a joke" bigotry that for WP purposes are verifiable and due per BLP. I suggest a balancing paragraph right after that one for NPOV. Yes, we also have to treat personal columns or opinion pieces with caution for depictions of fact, but afaiu we are meant to include them for reception of the subject. I get it that he probably does all this for attention and might not even believe what he is saying, but until a RS says that, it's not an assumption that informs our editing. -Chumchum7 (talk) 05:47, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

December 2019
Re: this edit: it was reverted because Coren discusses his Jewishness/Jewish family background in the sourcing. This edit was also reverted because it is sourced material. Obviously the user name is interesting, because it suggests that Coren himself may have made the edits. This leads to a problem with WP:USERNAME unless the person actually is Giles Coren. I'm not particularly interested in whether any of this material is true or false, but it cannot be removed because of an "I don't like it" reaction to the sourcing.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 10:40, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

 * Re this edit: I reverted because of a strong suspicion that WP:SOCK and WP:AUTO have become involved. The rule is one person, one account. Please don't use multiple accounts to make the same edits. And the WP:USERNAME is once again problematic because it is unlikely that a satanic version of the leader of the Labour Party made these edits. Here is what WP:AUTOPROB says: "If Wikipedia has an article about you, we want it to be accurate, fair, balanced and neutral – to accurately reflect the sourced, cited opinions of reliable sources. If you believe reliable sources exist which will make the article more balanced, you can help by pointing other editors to such sources. You may wish to make suggestions on the article's talk page or, if the problem is clear-cut and uncontroversial, you may wish to edit the page yourself. If your edit may be misinterpreted, you should explain it on the talk page. Note that if the fact has different interpretations, others will edit it. Your edits are more likely to be accepted if they are neutral and well-sourced to third parties." This wouldn't be the first time that someone had tried to edit their own Wikipedia article, but this is discouraged unless the edits are obvious vandalism or potentially libellous.-- ♦Ian Ma c  M♦  (talk to me) 17:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Did you file to sock-investigate them with WP:CHECKUSER? I recall years ago a Portuguese IP section-blanked content from this article, right before Coren's sister said there'd just been a family holiday to Portugal. And the edit summaries of the users you refer to have a recognizable tone. -Chumchum7 (talk) 18:23, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

 * I didn't file with checkuser, but given that the two users made exactly the same edits, there was a strong suspicion. I had hoped that one of them might turn up on the talk page to explain their concerns, but the edits have not been made since.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 18:30, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Lock The Page?
Given there is a certain user who claims to be the subject of the page and keeps trying to edit it should this page be locked? 83.218.151.178 (talk) 10:25, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

 * Not at the moment, because the disruptive editing is sporadic rather than continuous. *If* the subject of the article isn't happy with some of the things in it, see WP:AUTOPROB.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 10:39, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Michael White
Can we add something about the time he alleged Michael White had behaved inappropriatly and threatened to beat him up?

Sources:
 * https://twnews.co.uk/gb-news/the-times-giles-coren-hits-below-the-belt-in-a-twitter-spat-with-the-guardian-s-michael-white
 * https://www.anorak.co.uk/452723/celebrities/the-times-giles-coren-hits-below-the-belt-in-a-twitter-spat-with-the-guardians-michael-white.html
 * https://mediadiversified.org/2018/11/27/the-columnist-class-egos-and-accountability/
 * https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2020/06/so-farewell-then-giles-coren.html
 * https://london.eater.com/2019/12/24/21036358/best-tweets-decade-london-restaurant-food-writers

Thanks 80.47.137.128 (talk) 17:55, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

 * I removed this because it looks like typical Coren trolling, and has obvious WP:BLP issues. If you look at the sources above, they are not blue chip and are simply repeating something that Coren said in a tweet, leading to WP:SPS issues as well.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 19:03, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Eater is under the Vox media umbrella and is an award winning website having been recognised four times by the John Beard Foundation Awards. Media Diversified is a UK-based nonprofit media and advocacy organisation for writers and journalists of colour. Zelo street has been used as a source in other wikipedia articles. What's your definition of a "blue chip" source and can you point me to the wikipedia guidelines that state only "blue chip" sources are permitted? Can you also quote which part of WP:SPS you believe is relevant here, since the page already contains a section under controversies which are based on tweets made by the page subject. Thanks 80.47.137.128 (talk) 22:19, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Even though Giles Coren is famous, saying something like "X is a kiddie fiddler" in a tweet is potentially libellous unless there is very serious evidence to back it up. It is an interesting example of the sort of thing that Coren does on social media when he gets into a feud with someone, but it isn't suitable for Wikipedia to repeat this allegation. By "blue chip sourcing", I mean things like BBC News and broadsheet newspapers. This helps to establish notability. As Eric Schmidt said recently, "The context of social networks serving as amplifiers for idiots and crazy people is not what we intended." People often say whatever they like on social media, which is why caution is needed-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:24, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you, can you expand on why you specifically think the sources mentioned are not reliable beyond "they're not the BBC News or a broadsheet newspaper". 80.47.137.128 (talk) 10:40, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:DUE is involved here, because most of the sources above are not anything like blue chip (personal blogs etc). It's unlikely that major media sources like the BBC would want to inflate a social media feud in which Coren makes a potentially libellous allegation as part of his trolling against people that he has fallen out with online. TBH, I'd never heard of this until it was mentioned yesterday. It appears that Coren may have deleted the tweet with the specific allegation as none of the sources has a screenshot of it. This leads to problems with proving that it happened. I think we should let sleeping dogs lie here.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 10:57, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Please can you clearly explain why each source is not reliable other than stating "they're not blue chip". Currently it sounds like you're saying "they're not reliable because they're not reliable". Thanks 80.47.137.128 (talk) 15:17, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I suppose we could go through Coren's tweets from around September 2018, but if he did say this it may have been deleted since then. This isn't surprising because it had potential libel issues if he did say it. Without better sourcing it really isn't worth inflating this to the point where it would draw attention to something that major news outlets never reported.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 17:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Please explain why you don't think the sources are reliable. I've had to ask you on multiple occasions about this and you're getting into WP:Stonewalling terrority with your refusal to engage with this discussion. 80.47.137.128 (talk) 20:22, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to go into a detailed rebuttal of the sourcing because the real issue here is WP:LIBEL. It appears that Coren may have got into a spat with someone on Twitter, accused him of being a kiddie fiddler, then deleted the tweet. The question is whether Wikipedia should repeat this claim, and it should not because it would only be drawing further attention to it and creating legal problems. This is why the edits were removed.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:38, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:LIBEL does not cover "a person made these tweets which may be libelous". If the edit repeated the claim as fact then it would be covered by WP:LIBEL. Your position seems to be "if someone makes a statement which may be libelous then you can not say they made that statement due to WP:LIBEL]". See the [[Laurence Fox article for an example of potentially libelous tweets made by the subject being included in the subject's page. 80.47.137.128 (talk) 17:12, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Does he really have 2 brothers-in-law with the same name?
Under "Personal Life", it states that "Walker's sister is married to the presenter David Mitchell", Walker being his wife. The link to David Mitchell is not to a specific individual and it seems odd, as his sister is also married to a David Mitchell, that this is the case. It may be true of course and, in this case, I think a link to the specific individual is required here. The reference is to a video that is no longer available.

Dartiss (talk) 12:57, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Removal of embarrassing criticism sourced to our high quality secondary sources
As I have not checked in here for ages, before going WP:BOLD by restoring the content - and as a courtesy - I'm going to ask the remover for the rationale as to why the well-documented abuse by this person of his work colleagues at The Times has been removed. It is prominently referred to here and in many other places. User:Ianmacm and I have discussed whether Giles Coren is managing his own Wikipedia article for reputation management purposes. -Chumchum7 (talk) 06:37, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

If nobody wishes to speak up I'll restore a rendition of the following content tomorrow: '' ===Leaked e-mail to subeditors=== On 23 July 2008, The Guardian media blog published an email from Coren to sub-editors at The Times''. Coren's internal Times email used profanity, the use of which he defends, to take issue with a colleague's removal of an indefinite article (an "a") from his piece, which he believed ruined a joke in his last line. Coren said a joke was lost in the change from "a nosh" (meaning fellatio) to "nosh"—a word derived from Yiddish meaning "food", which he doubted his editors knew better than he. The Daily Telegraph said the incident was "not the first time the critic has been caught out writing abusive emails to colleagues". The exchange was reprinted in the American magazine Harper's in October 2008. ''

Cheers, -Chumchum7 (talk) 16:45, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Started cheating rumour about William and Kate?
Apparently this lovely person also started the false and disgusting rumour that William cheated on Kate with Rose Hanbury? I read this but would need someone to verify... 173.35.240.92 (talk) 15:56, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

 * All depends on whether these are WP:RS. Comments please. -Chumchum7 (talk) 16:36, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Daughter article

 * I realize that one of Coren's articles set off fauxrage, but social media kerfuffles do not merit mention in an encyclopedia article unless independent, reliable sources give it enough significant coverage to make it important. Do you have any reliable sources that address the issue of that article? Schazjmd   (talk)  16:43, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Giles Coren


text:
Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani

Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani (1 October 1871 – 13 January 1951) was an Italian Catholic prelate who served as Secretary of the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, Vicar General of His Holiness, Secretary of the Holy Office, and Dean of the College of Cardinals. He was elevated to the cardinalate in 1930.

Early life and ordination
Marchetti Selvaggiani was born in Rome to Vincenzo and Valeria ( Caretti) Marchetti Selvaggiani. A boyhood friend of Eugenio Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII), he studied at the Almo Collegio Capranica and Pontifical Gregorian University. Marchetti Selvaggiani was ordained to the priesthood by Archbishop Francesco di Paola Cassetta on 4 April 1896.

Roman Curia
He then served in the Congregation for Extraordinary Ecclesiastical Affairs, as a minutante, until 1900. From 1900 to 1906, he was auditor of the Apostolic Delegation to the United States in Washington, D.C. He was attached to the secretariat of the Congregation for Extraordinary Ecclesiastical Affairs for a year before becoming auditor of the Apostolic Nunciature to Germany in 1907. Marchetti Selvaggiani was named privy chamberlain of his holiness on 25 December 1914, domestic prelate of his holiness on 7 July 1915, and protonotary apostolic on 26 September 1917. From 1915 to 1918, he was a confidential representative of the Holy See in Bern, Switzerland.

Nuncio
On 16 February 1918, he was appointed Internuncio to Venezuela and Titular Archbishop of Seleucia di Isauria. He received his episcopal consecration in the chapel of the Pontifical Latin American College on the following 14 April from Cardinal Pietro Gasparri, with Archbishops Carlo Pietropaoli and Bonaventura Cerretti serving as co-consecrators. With the raising in rank of the papal diplomatic mission to Venezuela and of the Venezuelan mission to the Holy See, he became nuncio on 21 May 1920. On 4 December of the same year, he became Apostolic Nuncio to Austria.

Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples
He was made secretary of the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith on 15 December 1922. As secretary, he served as the second-highest official of that dicastery under Cardinal Willem van Rossum, CSSR. In addition to his role as secretary, he served as an extraordinary papal envoy to Haile Selassie I, Emperor of Ethiopia.

Cardinal
Pope Pius XI created him Cardinal-Priest of S. Maria Nuova in the consistory of 30 June 1930. In late 1930, in response to a growing Protestant presence in Rome, he was also appointed to head the Pontifical Organization for Preservation of the Faith and for the Provision of New Churches in Rome. On 9 May 1931, Marchetti Selvaggiani was named the Vicar General of Rome; as vicar general, he governed the Diocese of Rome in the name of the pope, who is Bishop of Rome. He advised local priests to avoid theaters and sports games. He became Archpriest of the Lateran Basilica on 26 May 1931, and Cardinal Bishop of Frascati on 15 June 1936.

Secretary of the Holy Office
Just after Pope Pius XII was elected in 1939, Cardinal Donato Sbarretti, head of the Holy Office, died, and Pius named Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani to the position. On becoming the senior cardinal-bishop in 1948, Marchetti-Selvaggiani became dean of the Sacred College and Bishop of Ostia in addition to his first bishopric see. He also succeeded as prefect of the Sacred Congregation Ceremonial, and continued in all these positions until his death.

Death
Selvaggiani died from a cerebral thrombosis in Rome, at age 79. He is buried in Campo Verano.

title: Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani


text:
Talk:Peter, Paul and Mary

Discussion
"improper liberties"? Oh God... someone needs to expound. TheCoffee 17:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I so agree, even though I don't know what your sayin'. Chill. , — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.232.145.68 (talk • contribs) 20:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

They used to get their laundry done in Salinas, CA! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.26.6.143 (talk • contribs) 17:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Missing hit list
The listing of top-hit songs and albums is confusing. This is an example of the bad effects of the Official Policy Against Lists (OPAL) at WP. What could be organized and accessible turns into just a confusing mush of sentences.-69.87.204.178 22:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Bad link
The link for "500 Miles" (in the first paragraph of the History section) redirects to a totally different song - "I'm Gonna Be (500 Miles)," written and performed by Scottish pop band The Proclaimers. 12.76.136.92 (talk) 05:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Why such focus on Australian concerts ?
I think someone should correct (or erase) such lines about Australian concerts. I don't think this is the point of such page to list every tour of the band in a specific country, unless significant event :
 * In May 1964 Peter, Paul & Mary made their first tour of Australia playing only one concert in each of Sydney (Stadium) and Melbourne(Festival Hall). Their Australian Impressario was tentative about their potential but this was unfounded.

 * Their first visit sparked a massive folk music interest which survives today. Folk Clubs were opened in the most unlikely places and folk festivals were founded. Many hitherto ignored Australian Folksingers were able to make modest livings from their careers and recordings.

 * Both concerts were sell-outs and the group revisited Australia in 1965,1967,1968 and 1970 each time increasing their itinerary and always to capacity business, until their break-up in 1970.
 * Since their reformation Peter, Paul & Mary have visited Australia three times for concerts. Noel Paul Stookey is the only member of the group to visit Australia as a solo performer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aldejerph (talk • contribs) 08:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Why such focus on a lost TV interview ?
Admittedly, the recollection that "the trio chatted amiably" is intriguing. Even so, the attention lavished on this now obscure event, which is not even claimed to have any great significance if we had the tape, seems wildly disproportionate. What it seems to be is padding for a Wiki article that is painfully lacking in significant information. 74.242.247.150 (talk) 21:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Peter and Paul were interviewed earlier this week (8/19/2009) by radio station WTOP, under the title Audio: Peter, Paul & Mary No More. This interview reveal's Mary's health issues prevent her singing concerts, and they have probably performed as a trio for the last time.  http://wtop.com/?sid=1743466&nid=93.  Tomligon (talk) 19:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Citations & references
See Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the  tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 06:13, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Mary's death
The wording of Mary Travers death could be a little misleading. The trio may have lost a member, but the group has been touring without her. Have they announced that the group is done? if not then the wording should be changed from: The Peter, Paul and Mary trio came to an end on September 16, 2009, when lead singer Mary Travers died of complications from chemotherapy, following treatment for leukemia, at age 72. 72.10.215.230 (talk) 14:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Don't be an idiot. You can't have Peter, Paul and Mary without Mary. 98.220.41.194 (talk) 19:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Didn't say you can have a Peter Paul and Mary without Mary. but the current wording makes it appear as though the group will never perform again when in reality they have been touring without Mary for quite a while.  While they won't be Peter Paul and Mary, but Peter and Paul, which they have been using as their name without Mary.  I think the wording should be changed. 72.10.215.230 (talk) 17:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I don't understand your dilemma. You admitted they have toured as Peter and Paul, which is different. So then what's wrong with the wording "The Peter, Paul and Mary trio has ended"????? Peter and Paul may have been touring, but the GROUP Peter Paul and Mary has not toured recently, and they will never tour again, obviously. The wording is fine. The Peter, Paul and Mary trio in fact did come to an end with Mary's death. Peter and Paul may continue to perform together, but there's no way on God's green earth they'd tour as Peter, Paul and Mary since Mary has died. 98.220.41.194 (talk) 19:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Arguably the trio came to an end before Mary's death, since Peter Yarrow and Noel Paul Stookey were performing concerts without Mary, billed as "Peter & Paul," prior to her death. The problem is that the "end" of a musical group is not always a well-defined event. I'd avoid saying that the trio ended on September 16, 2009, although perhaps for different reasons than 72.10.215.230. It would be appropriate to mention the date of their last live performance together, or their last recording, I think. Chuck (talk) 19:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Picture from the Sixties needed
They were an icon of the Sixties, and there should be a picture of them as they were then and will always be remembered. The picture of elderly folk 40 years later is a bit absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.21.65.42 (talk) 02:38, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

 * I agree if you can find one that is of free use feel free to upload it on wikipedia commons. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Early Years section
The trio appeared as a lounge act performing "A Soalin'" on "77 Sunset Strip," episode number 159, titled, "Shadow on Your Shoulder", which aired on 7 December 1962.
 * IMDB: "77 Sunset Strip" — "Shadow on Your Shoulder"
 * 77 Sunset Strip" — Episodes from Season 5
 * I'm not sure if this is important enough to be added to the main article. (Was this their first television appearance?)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.5.131.205 (talk) 09:18, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I suggest the reference to "Leaving on a Jet Plane" as being their only #1 song be modified to specify #1 on billboard Hot 100, as the discography chart clearly states they had 2 additional #1 songs, albeit on the Adult contemporary charts. ShelbyMarion (talk) 13:48, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I have added "Eugene McCarthy For President (If You Love Your Country)" and their support for his campaign to this section. Peter Yarrow has noted that he met McCarthy's niece at this time and they later married, so this should be included here. I hesitate to add the single to the discography chart because I fear screwing it up, but it was released, it is a part of their history, and they did perform some version of the song from time to time.Doctor Franklin (talk) 23:46, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Political Activism
Should there be a separate section for their political activism? In addition to their endorsement of Eugene McCarthy, they were active in the anit-war movement and civil rights, etc. I remember that they campaigned for Walter Mondale in 1984 as well.Doctor Franklin (talk) 19:05, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

"two beards and a blonde"
Should include that nickname, which was apparently fairly widely known in the 1960s... AnonMoos (talk) 15:22, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

"Reconciliation"
From the content appearing in the article, it sounds like "reunion" would be more appropriate.

Reconciliation seems to imply something more significant than an amicable split and people going their separate ways to solo careers (especially since we're all used to bands splitting up in very ugly ways). On the other hand, if there did occur major conflicts between the three, which would justify using this word, that should be indicated somehow in the previous section.

-P — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0D:6FC0:2839:7500:F89C:BF80:2B89:5B23 (talk) 20:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

rinky dink reggae??
The following passage:

''A reunion album, Reunion, was released by Warner in 1978. In Christgau's Record Guide: Rock Albums of the Seventies (1981), Robert Christgau said the group's decision to cover Bob Dylan's "Forever Young" as a "rinky-dink reggae like these three geezers means you've been middle-aged and liberal since you were fifteen."''

is not very clear.

Well, actually, I have no idea what it means. :-)

I went to see the source, and the quote is accurate, but the present sentence (mixing quote and original content) is difficult to parse, and even afterwards I'm left wondering what on earth was meant by that. I guess it sounds like criticism?

I would suggest saying something like "their reunion rendering of Bob Dylan's "Forever Young" has been criticized as too conventional", and then the exact quote. Or simply remove that line, because frankly I don't see what it brings to the overall article.

Jrob kiwi (talk) 15:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

 * We have - or had - a very prolific and assertive editor who insisted on inserting Christgau's opinions into every conceivable article. Best to remove that sentence, in my view - it adds very little.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

 * Agreed. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:43, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * thanks :-)
 * Jrob kiwi (talk) 11:44, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Peter, Paul and Mary


text:
Artane, Dublin

Artane, sometimes spelt Artaine, historically Tartaine is a northside suburb of Dublin city, Ireland.

Artane is also a civil parish in the ancient barony of Coolock. Neighbouring districts include Kilmore West, Coolock, Beaumont, Killester, Raheny and Clontarf; to the south is a small locality, Harmonstown, straddling the Raheny-Artane border.

History

Artaine, now usually Artane, has a recorded history spanning over 900 years, but for much of that time was a quiet rural area.

Artane, as described from Thom's Almanac and Official Directory: County Dublin Directory, in 1862: "A village and parish in Coolock barony, Dublin county, three miles (5 km) N. from the General Post Office, Dublin, comprising an area of 954 acre. Population, 457. The village is on the road to Malahide. The parish, anciently called "Tartaine," for centuries formed part of the estate of the Hollywood family, and the castle of Artane likewise belonged to that of the Donnellans. The ruins were taken down in 1825, and on its site, Artane House was erected."

Artane Castle is recorded from about 1360 when Robert de Holywood, Chief Baron of the Irish Exchequer and founder of the Hollywood family, purchased it. The family remained at Artane for centuries.

The civil parish of Artaine, linked with Finglas before the Reformation, comprises the townlands of Artaine North, Artaine South, Artaine West, Artaine East (originally Skillinglass), Puckstown (where Bram Stoker once resided with his family, in Artane Lodge on Puckstown Lane) and two-thirds of the townland of Oldtown (the remainder being in the civil parish of Coolock).

Artane Cottages Lower and Upper, built circa 1900, on the Malahide Road, are in the townland of Killester North.

Silken Thomas and Artane Castle
In 1534, when Silken Thomas appeared in Dublin, the citizens, feeling unable to defend the city, allowed his troops to enter and lay siege to Dublin Castle. Among those who had taken refuge in the Castle was John Alen, Archbishop of Dublin. He had incurred the enmity of the FitzGeralds (also known as the Geraldines) by zeal in promoting Wolsey's plans and now dreaded their vengeance. He tried to escape by sea, but his ship was driven ashore at Clontarf. He sought refuge at Artane Castle, the home of his friend and fellow councillor Thomas St. Lawrence: St. Lawrence willingly took him in, but his hiding place was betrayed and he was captured. When brought before Silken Thomas, he implored the Earl to spare his life, but the young lord turned away with contempt, saying "Beir uaim an bodach" ("take the fellow away"). These words were interpreted as an order to put him to death and he was murdered in cold blood. For this crime, Silken Thomas was excommunicated by the Pope and thus lost many of his adherents. A slab bearing his name is still to be seen in the Archbishop's cemetery. In this old cemetery, there is also the 18th-century tomb of Richard Hollywood of Elm Park and the ruins of the 13th-century parish church, dedicated to St. Nicholas, it was a Chapel of the Medieval Finglas Church, the church was alter transferred to Coolock parish.

Artane Castle was used as a garrison during the 1641 Rebellion for a small army under the command of Luke Netterville of Corballis. The army raided two vessels at Clontarf led by the Commander of the Garrison of Dublin, Sir Charles Coote. They then battled in an area called Bloody Hallow, south of Swords. The Castle was pulled down in 1825 and using material from the castle a house was built on the site by Matthew Boyle. Boyle was a wealthy linen merchant which a business on Mary Street.

Artane Industrial School
The Artane Industrial School was set up in 1871 in Artane House by the Congregation of Christian Brothers. Industrial Schools were established to take in orphaned or abandoned boys or those who were involved in petty crime, and even such a minor offence as skipping school could be enough for a boy to be sent there. It has been said that about 5% of the children in Artane, indeed in all Industrial Schools, were actually orphans. Most of the incarcerated children were from families that had broken down and as separation was not allowed either, the children of these broken marriages were incarcerated and the religious institution in whose charge the children were put were paid one-third of a labourer's wage to feed, educate and clothe each child. In today's money, this would be equal to about €120 per child per week.

The school housed around 900 boys at any one time and they stayed there until they were 16 years of age. More than 15,000 youngsters passed through the gates of the school from 1871 to its closure in 1966. Subsequently, many allegations of abuse of boys at the school emerged.

After the industrial school - St. David's Primary and Secondary School
St. David's Primary School, BNS, began operations on the lower floors of the old industrial school in 1969. St. David's Secondary School, CBS, moved into the upper floors of the industrial school building in 1974 from the pre-fabricated buildings on Kilmore Road which it had occupied since 1966. The school building today is solely St. David's Secondary School, with grass playing fields, an all-weather pitch, sports hall, and exercise room, among its sports facilities, also science labs, computer rooms, metalwork and wood workrooms, art and a music room. St. David's CBS won the Leinster Colleges Senior Football Championship in 1986. They had been runners-up in 1984.

The Stardust
The Stardust was a popular nightclub located near the Artane end of Kilmore Road leading from Artane to Coolock. In the early hours of 14 February 1981, a fire took place at a disco. Forty-eight people lost their lives and 214 were injured. More than 800 people had attended the disco that night. The site of the disaster is today a business park which houses (amongst other things) a pub, opposite Artane Castle Shopping Centre. On the site was originally the factory of Scotts Foods, making jams and jarred vegetables.

On 14 November 2008, a second fire occurred at the same site as the Stardust, which had been used as a children's play centre. However, no one was in the building at the time, and there were no injuries. Once the fire was put out, firefighters found cancer-causing asbestos hanging from the roof.

Amenities
Retail facilities in the Artane area include several shops on the Malahide Road, as well as the Artaine Castle Shopping Centre, which is anchored by Tesco. Butterly Business Park holds a Lidl, a Mr Price and a number of other retailers.

Artane Beaumont Family Recreation Centre (A.B.F.R.C) is situated on the Kilmore Road at the Skellys Lane junction; Artane Montessori Circle Preschool is based at the recreation centre, which also hosts an after-school club for children of local schools, while other activities include basketball, badminton, fitness classes, Zumba and weight watchers; a number of music groups also use the centre.

Artane is also the site of the Coolock-Artane Credit Union main office, and the Donnycarney-Beaumont Credit Union, located in Artane Castle Shopping Centre.

Artane Beaumont Football Club is based at Rockfield Park, as is Rockfield Tennis Club. St. Pauls Artane F.C. is located at Gracefield Avenue. Killester Basketball Club uses the facilities at St. David's CBS, Artane.

Education
Schools in Artane include St. David's CBS and St. David's Boys National schools, as well as St. John of God Girls National School on Kilmore Road.

Religion
Artane is a parish in the Fingal South East deanery of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin. There are two Roman Catholic churches serving the area: Our Lady of Mercy, Brookwood Grove (Artane parish), and St John Vianney, Ardlea Road (Ardlea parish). The Serbian Orthodox Church Parish of Saint George uses Artane's Oratory of the Resurrection, Kilmore Road, for its services. Designed by the architect Liam McCormick the oratory contains stained glass windows by the artist Ruth Brandt. Artane is part of the Coolock, Church of Ireland Parish.

Dublin Bus
The area is served by a number of Dublin Bus routes, including: 14, 15, 27, 27B, 27X, 42, 42A, 42B 43, 104, 27a. The Artane roundabout bus stop is nearly always occupied by passengers.

DART
Artane is close to two Dublin Area Rapid Transit (DART) stations: Harmonstown railway station, which divides Artane and Harmonstown, and Killester railway station.

Notable people

 * Actor Jason Barry of Titanic and Love/Hate fame is from Artane.
 * Ivan Beshoff, survivor of Russian battleship Potemkin lived in Artane, where he founded the Beshoff's chain of fish and chip shops
 * Stephen Cluxton, who scored the winning All-Ireland point for Dublin in 2011, born here and attended St David's CBS.
 * Actor Liam Cunningham was educated at St David's CBS.
 * Johannes de Sacrobosco, known locally as John de Hollywood (1195–1256), is believed to have come from Artane.
 * Robert de Holywood, founder of the Hollywood family and Chief Baron of the Irish Exchequer (died 1384).
 * Kevin Doherty, ex-footballer and former first team manager of Shelbourne FC, was born here.
 * Enya and her managers Nicky Ryan and wife Roma Ryan, who is also her lyricist, lived on Danieli Drive, the former for around ten years, the latter two for many years.
 * Brendan Gleeson, actor, born and grew up here.
 * Veronica Guerin (1958–1996), Irish crime reporter, murdered during the course of an investigation.
 * Footballer Jeff Hendrick of Newcastle United F.C and Ireland grew up in Artane playing with Artane Beaumont.
 * Thomas Kettle (1880–1916), writer, barrister, economist, Irish Nationalist politician, and World War I volunteer (KIA), was born here.
 * Ex-professional cyclist and award-winning journalist Paul Kimmage grew up in Artane.
 * Colombia goalkeeping coach Des McAleenan grew up in Artane.
 * Brian McFadden, singer/musician, was born and grew up here.
 * Larry Mullen, drummer with the Irish band U2, and perhaps the most famous former member of the Artane Boy's Band, born and grew up here.
 * Ex-Big Brother star, now TV/radio presenter, Ray Shah grew up and went to school in St David's NBS & CBS, Artane; he went on to become a popular disc jockey.
 * BBC TV presenter Peter Snow
 * Footballer Frank Stapleton
 * Born in Clontarf, Bram Stoker lived in Artane Lodge during the 1850s. His brother George was born in Artane.
 * Former Aer Lingus, later British Airways, CEO Willie Walsh was born near Artane.

title: Artane, Dublin


text:
Jijel Province

Jijel (ولاية جيجل) is a province (wilaya) in Algeria, on the eastern Mediterranean coast. The capital is Jijel (Phoenician name : Igilgili). Taza National Park is located in this province.

History
The province was created from parts of Constantine (department) and Sétif (département) in 1974.

In 1984 Mila Province was carved out of its territory.

Administrative divisions
The province is divided into 11 districts, which are further divided into 28 communes or municipalities.

Districts

 * 1) Chekfa
 * 2) Djimla
 * 3) El Ancer
 * 4) El Aouana
 * 5) El Milia
 * 6) Jijel
 * 7) Settara
 * 8) Sidi Maârouf
 * 9) Taher
 * 10) Texenna
 * 11) Ziama Mansouriah

Communes

 * 1) Bordj T'har
 * 2) Boucif Ouled Askeur
 * 3) Boudriaa Ben Yadjis
 * 4) Bouraoui Belhadef
 * 5) Chahna
 * 6) Chekfa
 * 7) Djemaa Beni Habibi
 * 8) Djimla
 * 9) El Ancer
 * 10) El Aouana
 * 11) El Kennar Nouchfi
 * 12) El Milia
 * 13) Emir Abdelkader
 * 14) Eraguene
 * 15) Ghebala
 * 16) Jijel
 * 17) Kaous
 * 18) Kheïri Oued Adjoul
 * 19) Ouadjana
 * 20) Ouled Rabah
 * 21) Ouled Yahia Khedrouche
 * 22) Selma Benziada
 * 23) Settara
 * 24) Sidi Abdelaziz
 * 25) Sidi Maarouf
 * 26) Taher
 * 27) Texenna
 * 28) Ziama Mansouriah

title: Jijel Province


text:
Talk:Leckhampton, Corpus Christi College, Cambridge

[Untitled]
This article was proposed for deletion January 2005. The discussion is archived at Votes for deletion/Leckhampton, Corpus Christi College, Cambridge. Joyous 17:51, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

Graduate vs Post-graduate
Is there a reason for this to be described as a "site for graduate students" (IE using the American term graduate) rather than " site for post-graduate students" (IE using the British term post-graduate)? Is this Cambridge terminology? If not, I'll change it as per using British English in British-content articles. Gaia Octavia AgrippaTalk 21:54, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


text:
Talk:I Threes

Untitled
can we discuss the copy vio? . Looks like one to me but it needs to be explained here. If not in 24 hours I will remove copyvio and rewrite article. The article has not been recorded at Copyright problems either, and I cannot do it because I do not know where the copyvio is from. Squiquifox 17:51, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * copyvio is from this page. MartinBiely 20:54, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

I have removed offending article and rewritten it myself from scratch with copyvio as external link. Squiquifox 00:40, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * This is NOT the correct procedure. You must use the Temp page for the re-write so the copyvio can be deleted from the history. Here is the history from your first edit (do not delete/change):

Involvement
This page is pretty sparse...it would be really nice if someone could at least compile a list of albums the I Threes were a part of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.171.91 (talk) 22:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Your right... maybe put in a discography of all the Bob Marley & The Wailers albums that the I-Threes were featured in. And maybe a little bit of information about all three of the people in the group.Iminrainbows (talk) 01:19, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

16:17, Feb 19, 2005 Aranel m 19:47, Feb 17, 2005 Remuel m (sorted stub) 16:30, Feb 8, 2005 CdaMVvWgS m (interwiki de:) 18:50, Feb 6, 2005 Squiquifox 18:50, Feb 6, 2005 Squiquifox 18:48, Feb 6, 2005 Squiquifox 18:48, Feb 6, 2005 Squiquifox 18:39, Feb 6, 2005 Squiquifox

RedWolf 04:14, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)

Broken link
The link in the External Links section leads nowhere.  Smokey TheCat  20:20, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:I Threes


text:
Category:Drawings of people

Drawings of people.

title: Category:Drawings of people


text:
Robert Bateman (artist)

Robert Bateman (1842–1922) was a British painter, architect and horticultural designer.

Life
He was the third son of James Bateman FRS (1811–1897), the accomplished horticulturist and landowner, who built Biddulph Grange and its gardens, in Staffordshire, and Maria Sybilla Egerton-Warburton.

Along with his elder brothers John and Rowland, Robert was educated at Brighton College from 1855 to 1860. From 1863 to 1867, he was a student at the Royal Academy schools. From about 1870, he was the leader of a group of artists inspired by the art of Edward Burne-Jones. He was a founder of the Society of Painters in Tempera in 1901.

Works
His key paintings are The Dead Knight (1870), also known as The Three Ravens, which was the title used when it was displayed in 1868, The Pool of Bethesda (1877, exhibited at the Royal Academy 1878), The Raising of Samuel (exhibited at the Royal Academy 1880) and The Lily or the Rose (exhibited at the Royal Academy 1882). Walter Crane, in his An Artist's Reminiscences (1907), described Bateman's painting as of... "a magic world of romance and pictured poetry, a twilight world of dark mysterious woodlands, haunted streams, meads of deep green starred with burning flowers, veiled in a dim and mystic light."

The Pool of Bethesda is at the Yale Centre of British Art. The Dead Knight is in a private collection, but there is a fine large colour reproduction in the book The Last Romantics (1989). He presented The Lily or the Rose to his old school, Brighton College, where it hung for many years on the main building staircase until it was destroyed around 1960 after Brighton Royal Pavilion Museum and Art Gallery refused to accept it as a gift.

In addition to paintings, Bateman designed religious woodcuts, his work appearing in The Latin Year, The Church Service and A Century of Bibles.

Robert practised as an architect, most notably building Collyers, a house near Petersfield. He was also noted as a naturalist (corresponding with Charles Darwin), a botanical illustrator, sculptor, book illustrator, and an Italian scholar. He also left a horticultural legacy, in his planting of the gardens at Benthall Hall from 1890–1906 — much of his garden design there is still extant and is now maintained by the National Trust as part of Benthall Hall.

Family
Robert married the daughter of the Dean of Lichfield in 1883, and became a wealthy owner of property and land. His fortune led him to become a noted philanthropist of the time. He and his wife Caroline lived near Much Wenlock, Shropshire, at the 16th-century Benthall Hall; now a National Trust property.

title: Robert Bateman (artist)


text:
Talk:Anarchism/Archive 14

South Korean addition
Although the south korean uprising of 1980 is an interesting read, is it actually anarchist? There are some ascpects that reflect that but maybe more details should be included that make this self-evident, because otherwise it could be seen in favor of "democratic" govt. --Fatal 03:13, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree; there should also be less story-telling (leave that for a main article on the subject) and more discussion of why it is or is not considered an example of anarchism. --Sam Francis

Gabriele D'Annunzio
Gabriele D'Annunzio and other ties between Anarcho syndicalism and corporatism / proto-Fascism need addressing in the article page. 17:49, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * D'Annunzio's life has nothing to do with anarchist history, except for the single time he collaborated in writing the Constitution of Fiume with an anarcho-syndicalist. If the article were to mention everyone who had any interaction with anarchists at all, it would be ridiculously long and trivial. In fact, the main article on him states that he mostly added poetic flourishes to the writing which sounds rather trivial to me. --albamuth 21:00, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Anarchism among hunter-gatherers today
I think this article (or a linked one) could do with some info on how anarchism works among hunter-gatherers and that there still actually are people in the world who are pimarily hunter-gatherers and therefore anarchist and (pretty much) egalitarian. I'll probably write something along those lines in the near future unless someone beats me to it... Mikko.O. 07:53, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Not all hunter-gatherers societies are anarchist and or egalitarian. Foant

 * No hunter-gatherers are egalitarian or anarchist, see Anarcho-primitivism. 14:32, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, I saw the anarcho-primitivism article, have you? Foant

 * It would appear you havn't looked very closely if you are able to ask that question. 14:46, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Well read it again, and again. Then youll see it clearly says some or most hunter-gatherers tend to be anarchistic and egalitarian. And you here say "No hunter gathereres are egalitarian or anarchistic", well here it has also been pointed at hunter-gathereres in india which clearly are egalitarian and anarchistic, so you are wrong, not all are anarchist and egalitarian, but atleast some are, so saying that No hunter-gathereres are.. is wrong. Foant

 * Correction, there ARE and have been hunter-gatherer societies that are or were anarchist. One of the main arguments of anarcho-primitivists is that we should go back to living in hunter-gatherer societies.  --Fatal 20:42, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes. Allthough they might not call themselves Anarchist (or even have a word for it), it seems to me that (atleast) some hunter-gatherers are anarchist naturally. They live in small groups where too much authoritarianism on anyones part makes the group split by one or some of it's members joining another group or forming a group of their own. As to real egalitarianism, it seems that women (gatherers) do a more work (and also provide more nutrients to the community), maybe because hunting (which is primarily mens work) has higher status, being considered more cool (and meat perhaps being considered tastier also, in which case ofcourse a mere comparison of nutrients doesn't give the whole truth). Mikko.O. 07:11, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"... extreme egalitarianism; techniques for prestige avoidance and social levelling; absence of leaders, what Meillassoux and Woodburn call instantaneous or immediate economic transactions; individual mobility and a corresponding openness and turnover in band membership; resolution of conflict through fission and mobility rather than by violence or appeal to authorities; bilateral social structure; a general tendency toward informal arrangements and individually generated, ad hoc structures; and relatively high levels of interpersonal variability in concepts, beliefs, and manner of expression (1991: 548-49)." from http://www.abdn.ac.uk/chags9/1Norstrom.htm about hunter-gatherers called Paliyan in south India. Mikko.O. 07:27, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) "All over the world anthropologists have found that nearly all hunter-gatherer societies don't have rulers. Anarchism is very practical. It stops poverty. It stops social breakdown and is painlessly achieved by cutting taxes, the population and the size of the political unit." from http://www.rosenoire.org/essays/why_anarchism.php Mikko.O. 07:31, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, I don't know much about these cultures actually, but you can't make broad generalizations. Different cultures have different customs and social structures. A related book worth checking out for those interested is David Graeber's Fragments of an Anarchist Anthropology. It was released just a few months ago I believe. Kropotkin's 1902 work Mutual Aid also has some ideas on this topic. --Tothebarricades.tk 18:40, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Talking about "cultures" is making broad generalizations. Not all representatives of a "culture" share the same knowledge of the "culture" and all representatives of any "culture" are more or less influenced by all sorts of other cultural ... "flows", infact we're all individuals, we're all different (except for that one guy).
 * I do believe you can make broad generalizations about among other things hunter-gatherers. Saying "hunter-gatherers in general are mobile people" is probably true (after a while of hunting-gathering in one area, the things to hunt and gather in that area seem to lessen, which calls for moving to another area). Since they're mobile they don't carry much stuff, which means they don't have much possessions but are pretty equal in the richer/poorer sense. Because hunting-gathering doesn't call for long-term plans or large organizing for the sake of providing food (as opposed to for example agricultural (agrarian?) societies, which calls for longer cycles of work and then storing of food)there is no need of authoritarian institutions that see to it that people remain in the community and are productive members. With more complex societies, it is increasingly important people do not for example plant seeds and then leave the society before harvest, because that would have grave consequences for the other members of society that depend on the farmers providing food for them.
 * However, I'm not saying we necessarily need general explanations of hunter-gatherer lifestyle in this anarchism article, but that it could do with some specific examples of how some societies are organized in ways that correspond with some ideas of anarchism, for example the Paliyans in south India, who are pretty much hunter-gatherers in general (allthough any Paliyan is ofcourse permitted to take a job with some neighbouring plantation or whatever if s/he wants to earn money to buy Coca-Cola or something).
 * I might write about Paliyans after researching them a bit more, but first I'd like to find out more about what other (more or less) hunter-gatherer societies there might be that seem to live life according to more or less anarchistic principles.
 * By the way, I'm not a primitivist. Mikko.O. 08:56, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I dont belive agrarian societies have to be authoritarian. There was agroculture for thousands of years before the first civilizations emerged, they rulers/elites used the agrocultural techniques to rule the people and what not... Just the same as there has been and there are authoritarian hunter-gatherer societies. Altou you might make apoint in that its harder for the a elite class or rulers to emerge in such a society. Foant

I suggest you write a Paliyan article. I for one would be fascinated by any demonstration of anarchic tendancies. 12:16, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I read somewhere about the Gâ-talking people in south america, they where said to be anti-authoritarian. Foant

 * Sure, any evidence of any indigenous people existing in a manner in any way similar to anarchist theory would be fascinating. Please have at it. 15:36, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You might find this amusing. Seems like alot of feminist / leftist posturing to me, but maybe you can find some leads in amongst the rubbish. 15:57, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nothing really amusing about it. Actually it gives a good rundown of matrilineal/matrifocal/matriarchical hunter-gatherer tribes, though they aren't neccessarily anarchistic. --albamuth 10:03, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Aside
Gee whiz, I wonder who decided to promptly archive the talk page up to a convienient point. User:Fatal (sig added by 00:59, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC))

 * The same guy who keeps signing your posts for you? How orderly of me... 00:59, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Sam recently found his aggressive disinformation techniques challenged on the primitivism page with referances to his history here and on libertarian socialism. Then suddenly this page gets archived cause Sam is in an orderly mood ;)  Kev 02:30, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't care why, but at least archive it properly (as archive 13). --albamuth 08:35, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

AdBusters
Thanks to Beta m's correction of capitalization in the adbusters link I noticed that adbusters is listed under anarchist journals. While I don't atm have info contradicting this, it comes as a surprise to see it listed there. Is adbusters specifically anarchist, or even promoting of anarchism in any way? Kev 02:13, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Actually, add to that Zmag, which appears directly below the adbusters line. Since when is Zmag an anarchist publication? Kev 02:14, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * If there is a "adbusters" journal it might not have anything to do with anarchism (or adbusting) more than anythng else but Adbusting in itself is anarchistic.

 * I agree, but I'm not sure if that makes it appropriate to list this particular group and their publications under anarchist journals. The same is true of Zmag, sure there are some anarchist writers in it, but I've never seen them directly associate themselves with anarchism as a group.  Kev 18:58, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * As Tothebarricades.tk pointed out it might be of interest to anarchists... but isnt in itself anarchistic... So i think it should be removed, or put under "Of interest to anarchists".. :) Foant

 * Zmag has had some stuff on anarchism but they're more broadly left-wing and pluralistic. Neither magazine is specifically anarchist. "Of interest" to anarchists perhaps, although I know a lot of anarchists aren't huge fans of Michael Albert and company. --Tothebarricades.tk 05:01, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * For the moment I moved both to a new category of "related publications", unless someone has a better idea =) Kev 05:46, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

WTF? What happened??
What happened to the "Anarchism series" that this page was a part of? "Anarcho-communism, anarcho-syndicalism..." were some of the pages listed in the green series box. What happened to this all of a sudden? I see the "topics related to anarchism" thing now at the bottom of these articles, but this is less noticeable and in my opinion, not as good as the previous series that existed. --Fatal 01:51, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've been hoping for someone to comment on that, I think it's rediculous. Someone stepped into the template and said it wasn't proper to make it a sidebar, citing some wikipedia special page with examples. I didn't know enough about it, so I didn't say anything. I think it should be put back the way it was.--Che y Marijuana 04:04, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

 * I checked out the series sidebar rules, and the change was correct. Series are done for things that are normally chronological, like the presidents of a country. Footering does indeed apply here. --albamuth 05:43, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Okay, another thing, I'm not sure how to edit something that on the bottom of all the pages all at once but I have a pretty good suggestion for it. I think that "topics related to..." box at the bottom should also have a link to the "Past and present anarchist communities" which is linked to in the Anarchism article. Since the information's been moved, it would make sense to provide a link to it there. --Fatal 23:38, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * You can edit it here. Just go to Template:Anarchism sidebar.

title: Talk:Anarchism/Archive 14


text:
John 20:17

John 20:17 is the 17th verse of the twentieth chapter of the Gospel of John in the New Testament. It contains Jesus' response to Mary Magdalene just after he meets her outside his tomb after his resurrection. According to the longer ending of Mark's Gospel Mary Magdalene is the first person to whom Jesus shows himself alive after his resurrection.

Content
The original Koine Greek, according to the Textus Receptus, reads:
 * λέγει αὐτῇ Ἰησοῦς· μή μου ἅπτου, οὔπω γὰρ ἀναβέβηκα πρὸς τὸν
 * πατέρα· πορεύου δὲ πρὸς τοὺς ἀδελφούς μου καὶ εἰπὲ αὐτοῖς ἀναβαίνω πρὸς
 * τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ πατέρα ὑμῶν καὶ θεόν μου καὶ θεὸν ὑμῶν.

In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:
 * Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended
 * to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say to them,
 * I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.

The English Standard Version translates the passage as:
 * Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended
 * to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them,
 * 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

The Modern English Version instead reads:
 * Jesus said to her, "Stop holding on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.' "

For a collection of other versions see BibleHub John 20:17.

Noli me tangere
The passage does not make clear how Mary is touching him. H.C.G. Moule speculates that she likely grabbed his arm or hand to try to verify his physical existence.

An important issue is why Jesus prevents Mary from touching or holding him. In Latin, this phrase is translated as noli me tangere. It is unclear why Jesus imposes this rule, especially since in John 20:27, he allows Thomas to probe his open wounds. It also seems somewhat contradictory to the other Gospels, Matthew 28:9 states that the women who found Jesus "came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him", and no mention is made there of Jesus disapproving.

Biblical scholar Raymond E. Brown has listed a wide array of explanations for his injunction:
 * Jesus' wounds were still sore so he did not like being touched.
 * Kraft proposes that the prohibition was because it was against ritual to touch a dead body.
 * Chrysostom and Theophylact argue that Jesus was asking that more respect be shown to him. This theory is sometimes linked to the notion that it was not appropriate for a woman to touch Jesus although it was fine for a man like Thomas.
 * C. Spicq sees the resurrected Jesus as the equivalent of one of the Jewish high priests who should not be sullied by physical contact.
 * Kastner, who believes that Christ returned in the nude, believes the prohibition was so that Mary would not be tempted by Jesus' body.
 * Mary should not touch Jesus because she should not need physical proof of the resurrection but should trust in her faith.
 * Rudolf Bultmann sees the phrase as an indirect way of saying that the resurrected Jesus is not tangible.
 * Moule considers Jesus' intervention to be not a prohibition on being touched, but an assurance that the touching is not needed since he has not yet returned to the Father and is still firmly here on Earth. His use of the present tense is said to mean that he should not be touched just yet but could be touched in future.
 * Some link it with the next verse and state that they should be read as one to mean, "Do not touch me, but go tell my disciples of the news."
 * John Calvin's commentary argues that Jesus did not forbid simple touching but rather that Jesus had no problems until the women began to cling to him as if they are trying to hold him in the corporeal world at which point Jesus told them to let go. Some translations thus use touch for the seemingly-permitted actions in Mark and cling for the action Jesus chides Mary for in this verse.
 * C. K. Barrett mentions the possibility that between this verse and John 20:22, Jesus fully ascends to heaven.
 * R. Hepburn posits that while Matthew 28:9 records Mary Magdalene and the other Mary taking hold of Jesus’ feet and worshiping Him after His resurrection, the encounter recorded in John 20:17 is a different (likely earlier) encounter when Mary Magdalene is alone with the risen Christ. She is not permitted to touch Him, thus preventing any possibility of the appearance of impropriety by having other witness(es).

There are also a number of scholars who have proposed alternative translations. They are not based on direct linguistic evidence but are rather attempts to synchronize the phrase with other parts of the Bible. There is also some evidence that the wording may have been mangled.
 * Some scholars eliminate the negative leaving the phrase as "touch me" and imply that Jesus is telling Mary to verify his physical form.
 * W.E.P. Cotter and others argue that the text should actually read "do not fear me."
 * W.D. Morris believes it should read "do not fear to touch me."

What not touching has to do with the ascension is also unclear. Barrett states that the phrase seems to have the paradoxical meaning that Jesus can be freely touched once he has ascended. Or rather, it may imply that her touch may somehow hinder his ascension into Heaven.

Jesus mentions that his ultimate fate is to return to his father, which is read as him making it clear that his resurrection has not made him king of the earth but king of heaven, and his return in physical form is only temporary.

Message to the disciples
Jesus then sends Mary to tell his brethren or brothers of the news. Elsewhere in the New Testament, the word "brethren" had been used to describe only Jesus' family, for example in John 2:12: "he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples": so this phrase is very unusual. It also appears at Matthew 28:10: John Nolland suggests that there may be shared source used by the two evangelists.

Jerome relates Jesus' direction to the disciples, "Tell my brothers (nuntiate fratribus meis)" to meet Jesus in Galilee to Psalm 22: "I will tell forth (Adnuntiabo) your name to my brothers (fratribus meis)."

Mary delivers the message to his disciples, and scholars agree that they were whom Jesus was referring to as "brothers". According to Henry Alford this is said to show that since his resurrection a new closeness exists between Jesus and his followers and to confirm that even after the resurrection Jesus is fully human and a brother to other men.

The message Jesus gives Mary has been the subject of detailed analysis. The assertion that God is both Father and God to Jesus is central to the Monophysitism/Diophysitism debate. The Diphysitists take it as proof that Jesus as well as being God was also a human under God. This passage is often linked with Jesus now referring to his disciples as brothers. Since they are now all brothers they share the same father in God. Since the resurrection Jesus has been forged into a permanent link between humanity and God.

The message Jesus gives to Mary does not mention the resurrection, only that Jesus is soon returning to his father. This is said to show that the great joy of the resurrection is not the return to life but rather joining with God as this is the only aspect of it Jesus felt necessary to immediately tell his disciples. Some thus read the passage as meaning that to Jesus the ascension is far more important than the resurrection. Reading this verse in isolation or disregarding other notions, some even feel that there is no such thing as resurrection; it was purely ascension.

In Islam
A similar verse appears in the Quran when Allah will ask Jesus on judgement day if he told people to take him and Mary as deities besides Allah in Chapter 5 verse 117:

 * (Jesus will say) Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say to wit 'Worship God my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things. (Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation)

 * I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. (Saheeh International)

For a collection of other versions, see Noble Quran translations.

The Godhead
John 20:17 has long been used to challenge the Trinitarian doctrine, which has been under debate before 200 A.D. This verse appears to suggest that Jesus too has a God above him. Or at least another God besides him. "'... I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.' (John 20:17)" Tertullian, one of the early Catholic Church Fathers, was utterly opposed to the doctrine of the Trinity. "Tertullian's belief was, 'The Son, on this theory, is not God himself, nor is he divine in the same sense that the Father is. Rather, the Son is 'divine' in that he is made of a portion of the matter that the Father is composed of. This makes them 'one substance' or not different as to essence. But the Son isn’t the same god as the Father.'"

title: John 20:17