text:
Talk:Tertullian

General
ISTM that this article gushes overmuch (for an encyclopedia article) when describing the qualities of Tertullian's writing. (Just a suggestion... I'm not watching the page.) — B.Bryant 23:53, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Latin unitas means "oneness, sameness, agreement." Thus, there seems to be a misunderstanding in the article, becuase tri + unitas = "three in agreement / three in oneness / three in agreement", unless this is what is meant by the phrase "tri (three) and unitas (one), tri-unitas (three in one) pointed to God as one God in substance and nature, but three in person — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. " —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

The Latin "trinitas" does NOT come from "tri" + "unitas." It comes from the Latin "trini" "three each" or simply "three" and the suffix "-tas" = the English "-ty," as in "unity," "corporeality," etc.

There is inconsistency among the dates for birth and death among the different languages, including a difference between the English language article and the "Simple English" article. Perhaps they should all agree?

POV rewording help
The following sentence seems POV and ackward and was wondering if anyone could rewrite it. I'm having a hard time trying to change it:
 * "If Tertullian went to an unhealthy extreme in his counsels of asceticism, he is easily forgiven when one recalls his own moral vigor and his great services as an ingenuous and intrepid defender of the Christian religion, which with him, as later with Martin Luther, was first and chiefly an experience of his own heart. " —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andrew c (talk • contribs).

I fiddled with it a little. What do you think?--Okieinexile 20:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Married Presbyters
The phrase "In the church of Carthage he was ordained a presbyter, though he was married" (section: Life) suggests that presbyters should be celibate, which is counter to the doctrine prevalent over all christianity at his time (i.e. presbyters were required to be married as per 1Tim.3:2 and Tit.1:6) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

The sentence says at the end that it was not unusual at the time to be a married presbyter. I think the "though he was married" was added to accentuate the difference between now and then, not that it was an unusual thing in that age. Coppcar (talk) 06:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Presbyters were not required to be married, as this would contradict Paul's 1 Cor 7. Rather, the requirement for one wife was a maximal requirement; i.e. presbyters should have one wife is not to be interpreted as that they must marry, but that they should only marry one wife and no more. Otherwise 4th century mainstream Christianity would find itself in contradiction with a Bible passage.  Gabr-  el  23:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Biographical Notes
This articles seems to ignore a lot of recent academic scholarship in favour of turn a distinct flavour of early 20th century theology. This is particularly pronounced concerning Tertullian's education in classical rheteoric (Sider 1971). The biographical information is very tradition rendition, it takes Jerome's claims about Tertullian much less critically than they should be. E.G. the title ascribed to Tertullians' father "Centurio Proconsularis" is rather dubious, it is not apparent if that ever was a legitimate roman military title. (Barnes 1971) In a similar way, we really can't say for certain about his being a presybter, his break with the Church or anything else mentioned in Jerome's 'biography'. We might think that Tertullian's own writing seem to be more authoritative on personal details in which case he was most likely married layman. (Dunn 2004)This article could really do with work over that takes into account the more recent information available. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * As someone currently studying Tertullian for a university course, I strongly endorse these comments. The article needs a thorough working over in lots of ways, though it does rejoice in a lot reference to primary sources available online, which makes it useful for that alone. Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 23:31, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Death penality
From : "Even if conviction resulted, there could be no capital sentence, a practice dating back to Tertullian's fourth century belief that the church did not have the authority to impose the death penalty on believers." Other mentions of this? --Ann O'nyme 23:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Suggested edit
The Section on Tertullian's life cites Augustine (De Haeresibus, lxxxvi)claiming that he, improbably, asserts that Tertullian returned to the Catholic Church before his death. I read the citation and Augustine makes no such claim, though he does say that the Tertullianists, members of the sect he founded, disappeared by the 4th century, returning to the Catholic Church, and that they surrendered their basillica which is "even now a very famous one, to the Catholic Church." Nowhere does he suggest that Tertullian himself converted back to the Church before his death. (SEE http://www.tertullian.org/tertullianistae/de_haeresibus.htm) Calvinwang (talk) 19:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Make the change. You're right.  Roger Pearse 20:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Change applied. Roger Pearse 13:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Quality query
The article has been worked over by someone with rather a lot of enthusiasm and not a lot of knowledge. It contains a great deal of stuff that skews it. There is not the slightest evidence that Tertullian was of Berber descent for instance, four 'references' notwithstanding. I don't know how to improve this article except by chopping a lot of it. Suggestions? Roger Pearse 20:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

 * In the absence of suggestions, I have chopped that piece of misinformation. I've done a bit of revision, but it needs much more.  It also needs some decent references. Roger Pearse 13:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roger Pearse (talk • contribs)
 * Well someone has restored that "piece of misinformation" with a footnote to the Works of Tertullian in French (http://www.tertullian.org/french/french.htm), which seems to provide no support for him being a Berber. I have deleted it based upon the lack of support, and potentially fraudulent footnote. --Bejnar (talk) 17:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

"Berber origin"?
There's an odd entry appended to the first sentence, that reads "...Tertullian was Berber origin." This is incorrect English (unlike the rest of the first paragraph), so I suspect it comes from a different author. Regardless, there is no mention in the rest of the entry about Tertullian being of Berber origin, nor is its source cited, so I doubt its veracity. Any objection to its removal? Bricology (talk) 19:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

 * There is no evidence that he was a Berber. The source cited does not address the issue, but merely makes an offhand comment, perhaps even a joke, about Berbers. This lame mis-information should be deleted. Rwflammang (talk) 14:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Several in-line citations are now in the aritcle on this point.50.111.24.85 (talk) 09:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Biased
The following quote seems biased to me, even though I am a Protestant. "In later life he became a Montanist and has been seen by some as the first Protestant[3]."

It doesn't matter if some people view this, because Tertullian was not a Protestant. Wikipedia is supposed to be a source for correct and unbiased information,and the last part of the quote should be removed. Grailknighthero (talk) 04:44, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

 * I have checked on the book by Timothy David Barnes, and can't find a single mentioning of the word "protestant" and only one mention of the word "protest" on page 248. Take a look here for whoever wants to see for themselves:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eH-BNqfc8iMC&dq=Barnes,+Tertullian&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=esYTbMCKDH&sig=jwxUDubpdGkmoOsBWLFjs5eC89U&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA3,M1

I am going to remove this.  Gabr-  el  23:32, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Martyred or not?
Nothing is mentioned whether he was martyred or not. Its important to know, since Tertullian himself condemned those who denied their faith upon the threat of death.  Gabr-  el  23:53, 26 April 2009 (UTC) There is no suggestion anywhere that he was martyred. Jerome indicates that he lived to a very old age. There is no reason to believe that he was. Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 23:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

"Other Latin formulations that first appear in his work etc."
In the general introduction of the article we read:"Other Latin formulations that first appear in his work are 'three Persons, one Substance' as the Latin 'tres Personae, una Substantia' (itself from the Koine Greek 'treis Hypostases, Homoousios')."Due to the strong claims, unsupported by specific quotations, I have appended to the sentence the following inline warnings.

Unless the needed citations are provided and correspond to the text of the sentence, I am going to edit it or remove it altogether. Miguel de Servet (talk) 13:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know whether Tertullian was first to use the Latin phrase, but I do know that it could not have come from the Greek at that time: the combination of hypostasis and homoousias were only applied to Trinitarian questions in an orthodox way in the 4th century; in the controversy surrounding Paul of Samosata, the term homoousias was actually condemned in the 3rd century (see Ratzinger, Introduction to Christianity, 2004, p. 172). 173.64.150.186 (talk) 18:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC)Anonymous

Unnecessary Asceticism
Under the section "Moral Beliefs", a line is quoted out of context in regards to male ejaculation. The quote makes it seem as if he is arguing against sexual functions, but if you look at the passage, it's clear that he was drawing an analogy to the nature of body and soul. I believe this should be removed. GrimmC (talk) 10:11, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Vague doubts cast on Jerome's Accuracy as a Reference
"Jerome claimed that Tertullian's father held the position of 'centurio proconsularis' ("aide-de-camp") in the Roman army in Africa.[9] However, it is unclear whether any such position in the Roman military ever existed.[10]" In what way is it unclear? If there is no other mention of such a post in other documents, then state that. That is an argument from silence, and can and should be made, but the current wording is a bit weaselly as the words "it is unclear" suggests some greater level of uncertainty and seems to cast general doubt on Jerome's account through uncertainty. If we have detailed listings of military positions that do not include this position, then we should state that, but it should be stated where and when those positions were listed. After all, Jerome is a source, and he could be correct and others be wrong. The reader should be presented with enough information to make their own choice as to which source to believe. Muchado (talk) 04:34, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I see now from an earlier comments that this is probably a reworked quote from Barnes, 1971. If so, then it would be better to simply quote it explicitly, instead of leaving it as a vague comment. Muchado (talk) 04:46, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Slammed in another cite, which might be a derivation from the one already there. I understand the problem. I don't know how to resolve it. As the old phrase goes, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Student7 (talk) 20:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There's really no reason to include it unless it's a more widely acknowledged issue. There's often overlap and ambiguity in official Roman titles. I've removed it for now. AlphabeticThing9 (talk) 22:34, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Caps in Latin
I have capitalized Trinity where changed. Partly from current use. Partly from WP:UE. Yes, Latin in not English, but "modern" Latin may have evolved. We need to employ current usage here. Note that Trinity is universally capitalized in its' own article. Student7 (talk) 18:30, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

The pictures of Tertullian
These are, of course, of a date long after his death, and their appearance does not suggest the Roman citizen that he was. What is the basis for choosing them, and are they actually appropriate, giving a misleading impression which is surely worse than none? Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 18:14, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

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The Link for reading Froom doesn't work.
Meaning I have no means to fact check anything claimed about his Eschatology here since Tertullian's own writings aren't cited directly at all. And I've seen contradictory claims made about what he taught. --JaredMithrandir (talk) 14:49, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Now that I've read Froom and what Froom quotes, Tertulian does not say The Antichrist comes from The Church, Froom is imagining him to have made a connection on the Temple of God issue he didn't make. --JaredMithrandir (talk) 08:38, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

List of works
The list of works is taken from Patrologia Latina and includes prefaces or commentaries by later writers, which of course are not Tertullian's works. For example: Dissertatio D. Le Nourry in Apologet. libr. II ad Nat. et libr. ad Scapulam, which is a commentary by Le Nourry (whoever that was) on Tertullian's Apologeticus. I'm removing them. Wgrommel (talk) 17:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Ethnicity
Hello, do you seriously consider these sources as reliable to use for the ethnicity of a historical figure? First of all, all of these French sources' authors are theologians, priests, economic specialists that holds no degree in history to make such statements.
 * 1) Le Berbère-- lumière de l'Occident by Vincent Serralda: A catholic priest who lived in Algeria definitely NOT a historian!
 * 2) Les Berbères face à leur destin by Lahcen Brouski: Again NOT a historian and the book is not even a history book.
 * 3) L'Algérie et son passé by André Berthier: This guy is the only one who might be credible although modern sources contradicts his views.
 * 4) Présence berbère et nostalgie païenne by Mohammed-Saâd Zemmouri: Not notable and not even a historian either.
 * 5) Intellectual Traditions of Pre-colonial Africa by Constance B. Hilliard: provide me a quote from this source because I was unable to find such statement regarding his Berber origin.
 * There are better sources available from notable academic publishers who emphasize his ethnic dispute, yet these decades-old sources just mention the word 'Berber' without even giving more details on the matter. By the way, it is unbelievable how these sources has been added by an inactive user 4 years ago across many articles without anyone verifying them for 4 years! So I have been checking these sources for the past 3 days. Also I sincerely doubt that you even read or verified them. --MWahaiibii (talk) 23:04, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I haven't read them and they could be discussed, but I cannot ignore the fact that you deleted them without explanation, just like you deleted the mention of the word Berber from other articles where it took me all of 30 seconds to find the relevant sources. M.Bitton (talk) 23:11, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No where did I remove any well-sourced claims, I removed the word Berber and the sources from articles with these same French sources backing them. These unreliable French-language sources with typical Non-neutral POV titles like The Berbers light of the West added by the same user across the African saints articles unnoticed. Now of course you can use these sources for other religious matters but as a proof of the disputed origin of historical figures? --MWahaiibii (talk) 23:20, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That's not what I said. Here, for instance, you removed what is easily attributable. Why would you do that? M.Bitton (talk) 23:25, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I told you, the source provided was AGAIN Le Berbère-- lumière de l'Occident by Vincent Serralda, and yes I checked it, it does not even state in an explicit manner that Adrian was Berber. If you meant by "easily attributable" Adrian's Berberness, then sure go ahead add the correct reliable citation. I did not take the time to check in other sources if he was Berber or not, all I did was remove the unreliable source and the claim it supported. --MWahaiibii (talk) 23:32, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You just confirmed what I said about not even trying to find a suitable source before deleting the content. Anyway, while I'm not expected to provide you with a quote from the last source (since I'm not the editor who added it), here's what I managed to extract from the source: Unfortunately, far too little scholarly attention appears to have been paid to the cultural influences of Tertullian, Cyprian , and Augustine ' s African Berber backgrounds. M.Bitton (talk) 23:59, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not obliged to find sources for each unsourced addition, the burden of proof is on the one who added it, not me. Refer to PROVEIT. Moving on, the main issue here is your desire to keep the unreliable sources and treat them as "most of the sources", when all I did is remove them and replace them with sources that actually goes into details about his origins and not just throw in the ethnic background in the text; saying "Berber saint...", "Of Berber backgorund..." with no further reasoning. Besides, they literally do not pass RS at all, except Intellectual Traditions of Pre-colonial Africa (It looks reliable to me, but then again it only refer to his background in a shallow passing mention as per your quote above). On the other hand, notable reliable sources either simply don't bring up the ethnic issue (knowing that it's disputed and unknown) Check: Britannica, or they discuss the ethnic dispute without affixing one to him, check: Tertullian the African. So, I still think my previous wording is way more neutral and based on reliability than your current biased one.
 * Tertullian's origins are disputed; He was either a Punic or Berber African, and he referred to himself as Poenicum inter Romanos (lit. 'Punic among Romans') in his book De Pallio.
 * What you think? --MWahaiibii (talk) 11:39, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You are not obliged to do anything, just like I wasn't obliged to cite the above quote, but I did it for reasons that I don't expect you to understand.
 * Nope, the main issue is the fact that you removed the sources without explanation.
 * There are two sources (Berthier and Constance B) that pass RS easily and will be kept.
 * Contrary to what you seem to think, Wilhite's source attributes the Punic claim to "René Braun", who happens to be a linguist (and not a historian) and is probably less reliable than "Dr Zemmouri Mohamed Saad".
 * I will reword it to comply with what the sources say. M.Bitton (talk) 14:02, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * "Nope, the main issue is the fact that you removed the sources without explanation."
 * My edit summary says that they were unreliable, in my first response here, I listed reasons why they are not reliable. If this is not an explanation, then I really don't know what's your definition of an "explanation" that you keep on repeating.
 * "There are two sources (Berthier and Constance B) that pass RS easily and will be kept."
 * Exactly what I said. Check my responses again, since I'm starting to doubt that you even pay attention when reading them. I said "This guy is the only one who might be credible, although modern sources contradicts his views." while regarding Constance B, "It looks reliable to me, but then again it only refer to his background in a shallow passing mention as per your quote above". Regardless, I'm willing to compromise here for the sake of not wasting more time on this issue and accept this new wording, which actually seems better than your previous biased one. And I'm sure you already went through it, but please take a second look at NEUTRAL. Cheers --MWahaiibii (talk) 22:24, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Alleged Montanism; priesthood of all believers
Many modern scholars point out a lack of direct evidence for Tertullian's Montanism. The current article correctly points this out and mentions that the sources are Jerome and Augustine, who were active 200 years later. (Some good references here.)

However, the well has been polluted: so many Protestant and Catholic sources write of it as an established fact: it is likely that Protestant writers have done so in order to find some proto-Protestant for polemical reasons, and Catholic writers have done so because Jerome and Augustine have some authority as saints or Doctors. (Some of the problems are that some of Tertullian's even late views do not match with the Montanists, some of his views are getting cast anachronistically and supply in the light of Protestant doctrines, ... and there may be some circular thinking where if Tertullian was a Montanist, and T said X then the Montanists must say X too and vice versa.)

So I think editors need to be careful to note and write that there is this controversy and polemic intentions that should cause WP:RS problems with many sources. I think the article needs to be re-researched. Editors need to be quite clear-eyed that Sources older than 50 years or so, or which are not informed by modern scholarship, may have information that no longer reflects academic consensus.

And another problem I see: faulty understanding of what different denominations teach: the article (and a citation in another article about Tertullian) says that Tertullian was like a Protestant because he held that if a priest was not available, anyone could baptize. However, this is standard Catholic doctrine. (It is not, however, the case for sacramental confession and sacramental eucharist, where an (ordained) ministerial priest is needed.) So things, it seems to me, are not a simple as "late Tertullian was a Montanist and therefore a proto-Protestant". Rick Jelliffe (talk) 14:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tertullian


text:
Paradela

Paradela may refer to

 * Places in Portugal
 * Paradela (Barcelos), a civil parish in the municipality of Barcelos
 * Paradela (Chaves), a civil parish in the municipality of Chaves
 * Paradela (Miranda do Douro), a civil parish in the municipality of Miranda do Douro
 * Paradela (Mogadouro), a civil parish in the municipality of Mogadouro
 * Paradela (Montalegre), a civil parish in the municipality of Montalegre
 * Paradela (Penacova), a civil parish in the municipality of Penacova
 * Paradela (Sever do Vouga), a civil parish in the municipality of Sever do Vouga
 * Paradela (Tabuaço), a civil parish in the municipality of Tabuaço

 * Other
 * Paradela (surname)
 * Paradela, Lugo, a municipality in Galicia, Spain

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Paradela


text:
Lake freighter

Lake freighters, or lakers, are bulk carrier vessels operating on the Great Lakes of North America. These vessels are traditionally called boats, although classified as ships. Freighters typically have a long, narrow hull, a raised pilothouse, and the engine located at the rear of the ship.

Lakers have been used since the late 19th century to haul raw material from docks in the upper Great Lakes region to the industrial centers of the Midwest. The navigation season typically begins in late March and ends mid-January due to the formation of ice on the lakes.

SS Edmund Fitzgerald, which sank in 1975, became widely known as the largest and most recent major vessel to be wrecked on the Great Lakes.

History

The lake freighter's recognizable design emerged from many years of innovation in Great Lakes shipping. By the late 1860s, most bulk cargo was still carried by unpowered barges and sailing ships. Often, these ships had accessible deck hatches, useful for loading and unloading cargo. Around this time, passenger steamboats were gaining popularity for their steam-powered shipping abilities, which were faster and more reliable.

In 1869, the wood-hulled R. J. Hackett was launched. It was designed specifically for the iron ore trade and had an experimental design that would soon set the standard for subsequent bulk carriers on the Great Lakes. The Hackett featured a raised pilothouse at the bow, situated on top of a set of cabins, and a boxy hull to maximize cargo capacity. Between the raised forecastle and engine funnel at the stern was a long, unbroken deck lined with hatches spaced 24 feet apart (to match the chutes of the gravity ore dock in Marquette, Michigan).

The falls of the St. Marys River forced ships to portage their cargo 1.25 mi around the falls. In an effort to make shipping more efficient and profitable, Michigan representatives appealed to the federal government for funding to build a canal. In 1855, the Michigan State Locks (now Soo Locks) opened, allowing vessels to keep up with demands for iron ore from further east. This would fuel the development of bulk carriers on the Great Lakes.

The early lakers often had a wooden hull, or a composite hull of an oak frame wrapped in iron plating. With the depletion of high quality timber near the lake shore, shipbuilders increasingly utilized metal hulls. In 1881 and 1882, the first entirely iron-hulled freighters, Brunswick and Onoko, were launched. Around this time, steel was quickly becoming a standard hull material as a result of the Bessemer process making it more affordable, and the first steel-hulled freighter, the Spokane, was launched in 1886. Soon both iron and composite hulls were discontinued, while wood was used for smaller vessels into the early 1900s.

An early variation on the lake freighter was the whaleback boat, designed by Alexander McDougall. These had cigar-shaped bodies that barely rose out of the water when fully loaded, and carried bulk cargo on the lakes from 1888 through 1970.

The early lake freighters required cargo to be manually unloaded, or with assistance from unloading machinery at the docks. In 1902, Hennepin was the first ship to be retrofitted with self-unloading equipment, allowing its cargo to be landed in a fraction of the time.

Around 1916, 600-foot vessels more or less became the standard size.

After World War II, several ocean freighters and tankers were transported to the Great Lakes and converted to bulk carriers as a way to acquire ships cheaply. Several of them continue to sail today. The oil tanker USS Chiwawa is now the bulk freighter Lee A. Tregurtha In addition, the freighter Outer Island was originally commissioned as LCT-203 for use as a Landing Craft Tank during World War II.

In the mid-20th century, 300 lakers worked the lakes, but by the early 21st century, there were fewer than 140 active lakers. By the 1990s, older and smaller self-unloaders and straight-deck freighters converted into tug-barges.

Types of lake freighters
The many lake freighters operating on the Great Lakes can be differentiated by how they are used. This may be where the ships may be where they work, their design, their size, or other factors. The ships are not always exclusive to one category. These types include:

 * Laker – a bulk carrier operating primarily in the upper Great Lakes.
 * Longboats – lakers noted for their slender appearance.
 * Oreboat/Ironboat – a bulk carrier used primarily to transport iron ore and taconite pellets.
 * Saltie – ocean-going, seawaymax vessels that access the Great Lakes through the Saint Lawrence Seaway.
 * Self-unloader – a lake freighter equipped with self-unloading gear.
 * Stern-ender – a lake freighter with all cabins aft.
 * Straight decker (bulker) – a freighter built without conveyors and cranes to offload cargo, instead using port facilities.
 * Tug-barge - a bulk carrier created by pairing barges (former self-unloaders and straight-deckers) with a tugboat.

Some of the newer classes of lake freighters include:

 * Equinox-class freighter – a new class of lake freighter, several of which entered service in the 2010s for Seaway Marine Transport, a division of Algoma Central. A class of vessel is created any time a new design is used to build a ship and is notable when multiple ships are built to the same design plans. The ships are used as dry-bulk lake freighters (two gearless bulk freighter and three self-unloading vessel). The first in the series, Algoma Equinox, was launched in 2013.
 * Trillium-class freighter – a new class of lake freighter delivered for Canada Steamship Lines in 2012 ( Baie St. Paul) and 2013 ( Whitefish Bay, Thunder Bay and  Baie Comeau). An additional pair (CSL Welland and CSL St. Laurent) began service on the Great Lakes in 2015.
 * River-class freighter – a new class of lake freighter, one of which, MV Mark W. Barker, was commissioned by Interlake Steamship Company and entered service on July 1, 2022.

Cargo
In 2023, 81.4 million tons of cargo were shipped on the Great Lakes. The most common cargoes include taconite, limestone, grain, salt, coal, cement, gypsum, and sand. The cargo is carried in large contiguous holds, not packed into containers.

The iron ore transported from the upper Great Lakes primarily supplies the steel mills of the Midwest. Iron ore makes up a majority of the cargo shipped annually.

The 1940s saw the rise in the use of taconite pellets, as sources of higher quality ore diminished.

Other destinations include coal-fired power plants, highway department salt domes, and stone docks, where limestone is unloaded for the construction industry. U.S.-flagged freighters carried the largest portion of the trade, accounting for two-thirds of all cargo by weight. U.S. hulls carried most of the iron, limestone and cement, while Canadian boats carried most of the potash, and almost all of the salt and grain moved on the lakes.

Destination harbors, ship sizes, and legal restrictions greatly affect the pattern of haulage. Large U.S. ships hauled most of the iron ore on the lakes (79%) from U.S. mines to U.S. mills. This reflects the requirement of the Jones Act, as well as the industry using large volumes of material while being concentrated in a few large harbor locations. Salt and Canadian grain can be hauled to numerous smaller ports of either country on smaller, mostly Canadian, ships, which can also enter the St. Lawrence Seaway with the Canadian ports of Montreal and Quebec City.

Because of their deeper draft and freshwater's lower buoyancy, salties often take on partial loads. Conversely, the Seaway allows smaller lakers to access the Atlantic Ocean. The larger, newer ships are restricted to the upper lakes.

Size

The size of a lake freighter determines where it can work. The shallow draft imposed by the St. Marys River and Lake St. Clair restrict the cargo capacity of lakers. Poe Lock at the Soo Locks is the largest deep lock at 1,200 ft long and 110 ft wide.

Many of the lakers are unable to navigate the locks of the St. Lawrence Seaway that restricts vessel size to 740 ft in length and 78 ft in breadth. Seawaymax vessels are able to access the Great Lakes and the ocean. The Canadian fleet needs to travel to and from its major cities along the St. Lawrence Seaway, so the largest length for the Canadian vessels is 740 ft.

Lake boats in the 600 and 700 ft classes are more common, because of the limitations of the Welland Canal. These vessels vary greatly in configuration and cargo capacity, being capable of hauling between 10,000 and 40,000 tons per trip depending on the individual boat. These smaller boats serve smaller harbors around the lakes which have irregular need for their services.

Another reason for the lack of larger Canadian vessels is legislative in nature. Larger ships on the lakes are generally used to transport American-mined ore bound for American mills. Because of the Jones Act of 1920, only American ships can carry ore from American mines to American mills in American ports; ergo, larger Canadian ships are not needed.

1000-footers
These are the largest vessels on the lakes. A dozen were built between 1976 and 1981, and all remain in service today. These are all U.S.-flagged vessels between 1000 and 1013.5 ft long, 105 ft wide and of 56 ft hull depth. They can carry as much as 78,850 LT of bulk cargo.

Design
Lakers feature a design distinct from their ocean-going counterparts. Because of the R. J. Hackett (1869), lake freighters typically had the bridge and associated superstructure at the bow. Additionally, a second island would be located over the engine room in the stern. In 1974, Algosoo was the final vessel designed this way. The more recently built lakers, like CSL Niagara, have a single large superstructure island at the stern.

The largest lake freighters can travel up to 15 kn. Vessel speeds are not as important on the lakes as on the ocean. Ports are often closer together than in ocean trade, so cargo capacity is more important than speed.

Lake vessels are designed with the greatest block coefficient to maximize the vessel's size in the locks within the Great Lakes/St Lawrence Seaway system. Therefore, ship designers have favored bluff bows over streamlined bows.

Another distinguishing feature of lake vessels versus ocean vessels is the cargo hatch configuration. On the lake vessels, the hatches are traditionally spaced 24 ft apart. This configuration was needed to match the chutes at loading facilities.

Since Great Lakes waves do not achieve the great length or period of ocean waves, particularly compared to the waves' height, ships are in less danger of being suspended between two waves and breaking, so the ratio between the ship's length, beam and its depth can be larger than that of an ocean-going ship. The lake vessels generally have a 10:1 length to beam ratio, whereas ocean vessels are typically 7:1.

Lifespan

Modern lakers are usually designed and constructed for a 45-50 year old service life, outlasting ocean-going bulk carriers. As of 2023, ocean-going bulk freighters average an 11-year lifespan, due in part to the corrosive effects of saltwater.

Some of the lakers have been known to have long careers. The SS St. Marys Challenger launched in 1906 and worked independently until 2013. The St. Marys Challenger is still in service as a barge at 118 years old. E. M. Ford had one of the longest careers, having been built in 1898 until being sold for scrap in November 2008.

Some shipping companies are building new freighters to ply the waters of the Great Lakes. The following are new freighters in use or will be launched for use in the Great Lakes:

 * MV Algoma Mariner – built by Chengxi Shipyard of Jiangyin, China, delivered in August 2011 for Algoma Central Corporation.

Ship losses and incidents

The Great Lakes have a long history of shipwrecks, groundings, storms, and collisions. From the 1679 sinking of Le Griffon with its cargo of furs to the 1975 loss of Edmund Fitzgerald, thousands of ships and thousands of lives have been lost, many involving vessels in the cargo trade. The Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum uses the approximates 6,000 ships and 30,000 lives lost. David D. Swayze has compiled a list which details over 4,750 well-documented shipwrecks, mostly of commercial vessels and a list of known names of over 5,000 victims of those sinkings. Maritime historian Mark Thompson reports that based on nautical records, nearly 6,000 shipwrecks on the Great Lakes occurred between 1878 and 1994, with about a quarter of those being listed as total losses with a total of 1,166 lives lost.

The most recent losses of modern lakers were: The salties Prins Willem V and Monrovia sank in the Great Lakes during the 1950s; both in collisions with other ships. The saltie Francisco Morazan was a total loss after running aground off South Manitou Island on November 29, 1960. Another saltie Nordmeer grounded on Thunder Bay Island Shoal in November 1966, but before it could be refloated, it was further damaged in the same storm that sank the Morrell and was declared a total loss.
 * SS Superior City, August 20, 1920, Lake Superior, 29 of 33 crew died, (collision with freighter Willis L. King)
 * SS Emperor, June 4, 1947, Lake Superior, 12 of 33 crew died, (ran into rocks at Isle Royale)
 * SS Henry Steinbrenner, May 11, 1953, Lake Superior, 17 of 31 crew died, (flooded after the cargo hatch covers were lost during a storm)
 * SS Scotiadoc, June 20, 1953, Lake Superior, 1 of 29 crew died, (rammed by freighter Burlington in heavy fog)
 * SS Carl D. Bradley, November 18, 1958, Lake Michigan, 33 of 35 crew died, (split in half by hogging during a storm)
 * SS Cedarville, May 7, 1965, Straits of Mackinac, 10 of 35 crew died, (collision with the saltie Topdalsfjord)
 * SS Daniel J. Morrell, November 29, 1966, Lake Huron, 28 of 29 crew died, (split in half by hogging during a storm)
 * SS Edmund Fitzgerald, November 10, 1975, Lake Superior, 29 of 29 crew died, (unknown cause during a storm)

Ships on the lakes have been involved in many lesser incidents. Lakers have been subject to frequent groundings in ports and channels because of varying lake levels and silting, collisions with objects (such as the 1993 collision of the Indiana Harbor with the Lansing Shoals Light Station), icing in during winter trips and shipboard fires (including the unusual case in 2001 where a drawbridge ran into the Canadian grain carrier Windoc causing a fire). To prevent collisions and groundings, the Great Lakes are well-served with lighthouses and lights, and floating navigation aids. The U.S. Coast Guard and Canadian Coast Guard maintain stations around the Great Lakes including icebreakers and rescue helicopters. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and other agencies maintain the harbors and seaways to limit groundings by dredging and seawalling.

November was the traditional last month of shipping before the winter layup (and lake freeze-up). During November, much of the worst weather of the navigation season occurs which has resulted in a disproportionate number of accidents. One study shows that over half of all strandings and one-third of all vessels lost to foundering between 1900–1950 were lost during November.

Famous vessels
The most well-known lake freighter was Edmund Fitzgerald, which sank during a storm on Lake Superior on November 10, 1975. Gordon Lightfoot's ballad, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", publicized the incident. The Edmund Fitzgerald became the largest ship on the lakes at 729 ft when launched in 1958. In addition to this, the ship was regarded for its "DJ Captain," Peter Pulcer, who frequently played music to entertain onlookers.

SS Arthur M. Anderson. launched in 1952, is known for having last contact with Edmund Fitzgerald and was the first vessel on-scene to search for the Edmund Fitzgerald.

Paul R. Tregurtha currently holds the title "Queen of the Lakes" as the largest ship on the lakes since launching in 1981. The modern stern-ender was first launched William J. Delancy and measures 1013.5 feet (308.9 m).

Notable vessels
Onoko was the second iron-hulled laker, launched in 1882. At 302 ft, Onoko was the longest ship on the lakes and became the first bulk carrier to hold the unofficial title of "Queen of the Lakes." The title that has been passed down to record-breaking lake freighters since. SS Carl D. Bradley held the title for 22 years, longer than any other laker of the classic design.

Ford Motor Company's Henry Ford II and Benson Ford of 1924 were the first lakeboats with diesel engines. The Canadian grainboat Feux-Follets of 1967 was the last laker built with a steam turbine on the lakes.

Wilfred Sykes (1949 – 678 ft) is considered to be the first of the modern lakers, and when converted to a self-unloader in 1975 was the first to have the equipment mounted aft. Since then all self-unloading equipment has been mounted aft. Algoisle (formerly Silver Isle) (1962 – 715.9 ft) was the first modern laker built with all cabins aft (a "stern-ender"), following the lead of ocean-going bulk carriers and reprising a century old form used by little river steam barges and the whalebacks. Algosoo (1974–2015 730 ft) was the last laker built in the classic style.

Also of note is the steamer SS Edward L. Ryerson, widely known for her artistic design and being the only remaining straight-decker still in active service on the US side of the Great Lakes. In mid 2006, Edward L. Ryerson was fitted out and put into service following a long-term lay-up that began in 1998. Edward L. Ryerson has been in long-term layup since 2009.

Cleveland, Ohio
The SS William G. Mather (1925) was first built in 1925 and served as the Cleveland-Cliffs Iron Company's flagship until 1980. In 1987, the ship was donated to the Great Lakes Historical Society for restoration and preservation. In 2005, the ship was moved to its present location at Cleveland's North Coast Harbor. Then, in 2006, the ship was acquired by the Great Lakes Science Center for use as a museum ship. The ship is available to tour seasonally.

Duluth-Superior, Minnesota-Wisconsin
The SS William A. Irvin served as the flagship of U.S. Steel's Great Lakes fleet from 1938 to 1975. The William A. Irvin was retired in 1978 and purchased eight years later by the Duluth Entertainment Convention Center and is available for touring.

The SS Meteor, the last surviving whaleback ship, floats as a museum less than a mile from where it was launched in Superior, Wisconsin. The ship is permanently land-berthed on Barker's Island.

Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan
SS Valley Camp served from 1917 to 1966. Two years later the ship became a museum on the waterfront of the 'American Soo', east of the Soo Locks, in 1968. She holds many relics of the sinking of Edmund Fitzgerald including two of Edmund Fitzgerald's mauled lifeboats.

Toledo, Ohio
The 118-year-old SS St. Mary's Challenger's pilothouse is set to be displayed in the National Museum of the Great Lakes' upcoming museum expansion.

The SS Col. James M. Schoonmaker floats in the Maumee River as a museum ship for the National Museum of the Great Lakes. When launched in 1911, it was the largest bulk freighter in the world. The Col. James M. Schoonmaker had been a floating museum before, after being purchased by the City of Toledo, Ohio in 1987.

DeTour Village, Michigan
Lewis G. Harriman's bow and bow superstructure are preserved as a residence in DeTour, Michigan. The ship was christened as the SS John W. Boardman in 1923. In 1965, the John W. Boardman was renamed Lewis G. Harriman and used to store cement during the Poe Lock construction in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. The ship was sold for scrap 2003, but the pilothouse and hull of Lewis G. Harriman were saved and now are used as a residence along the lake shore.

John Sherwin, not sailed since 1981, is currently docked in DeTour, Michigan after conversion to a self-unloader and repowering was halted in November 2008.

Detroit, Michigan
The pilothouse of William Clay Ford is part of the Dossin Great Lakes Museum on Belle Isle. The pilot house is open for tours and overlooks the Detroit River.

Mississauga, Ontario
SS Ridgetown was partially sunk as a breakwater (with stack and cabins intact) near Toronto at Port Credit. It was built in 1905 and is one of the oldest surviving hulls on the lake. Its silhouette provides an example of the appearance of early 1900s lake freighters.

Put-In-Bay, Ohio
Benson Ford, was the flagship of the Ford Motor Company fleet when launched in 1924. The forward cabin is now located on a cliff on South Bass Island in Lake Erie, where it was moved in 1986. It has been a private residence since 1999. The home is intermittently available to tour.

Failed museum attempts, ships scrapped

Several other lakers nearly became museums, but were scrapped for lack of funding, political opposition, and other causes.

 * SS Niagara: 1897-built freighter, later converted to a sand-sucker. Scrapped in 1997 by Liberty Iron & Metal of Erie, Pennsylvania, after a failed attempt to convert the ship into a museum in Erie. She had been saved from the scrapyard 11 years earlier.
 * John Ericsson: The second-to-last whaleback freighter. John Ericsson was scrapped in 1969 in the city of Hamilton, Ontario. Politics, as was the case with Canadiana, played a central role in the loss of the ship.
 * SS Seaway Queen: The Canadian straight decker Seaway Queen, formerly owned by Upper Lakes Shipping, and the setting for the movie version of David Mamet's play Lakeboat, was involved in an attempt to save the ship as a museum. In the end, the company failed to locate an organization that was capable and willing to preserve the ship and she was sold and scrapped in Alang, India, in 2004.
 * J. B. Ford: 1904 freighter that survived the 1905 Mataafa storm and the Great Lakes Storm of 1913 with the last three-cycle reciprocating steam engine was too expensive to turn into a museum and was sent to Azcon Metals in Duluth to be scrapped in 2015.

title: Lake freighter


text:
Swedish Institute

The Swedish Institute (Svenska institutet, SI) is a government agency in Sweden with the responsibility to spread information about Sweden outside the country. It exists to promote Swedish interests, and to organise exchanges with other countries in different areas of public life, in particular in the spheres of culture, education, and research.

The main office of the Swedish Institute is located in Hammarby Sjöstad in Stockholm. There is also a branch abroad; the Swedish Cultural Centre in Paris (Centre Culturel Suédois). The agency has approximately 140 members of staff and its board is appointed by the Government of Sweden.

In early 2007 the Swedish Institute stated it was planning to set up an "embassy", the "House of Sweden", in Second Life, an Internet-based virtual world. This virtual office is not intended to provide passports or visas, but serve as a point of information about Sweden.

Other Swedish embassies in foreign countries are under the direct authority and control of the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

The Twitter account @sweden
The Swedish Institute is responsible for running the Twitter account @Sweden.

From 2011 to 2018 the account was the location of the Curators of Sweden project, where a new "curator" was selected to tweet from the account each week.

In 2017, SI blocked 14,000 Twitter accounts from interacting with @Sweden. Among the blocked were journalists, authors, politicians, businessmen and ambassadors. When the block list was reported in the media, SI lifted the blocks and apologized.

When media, with support from the constitutional Principle of Public Access, asked to review the list of blocked accounts the government agency deleted it.

title: Swedish Institute


text:
Talk:Vissarion Jughashvili

Comment
Should this person be on Wikipedia? We have almost no info on him, and he has no personal claim to fame. --SqueakBox 23:57, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

He's the presumed father of one of the twentieth century's most influential people and therefore interesting in as far as he may have had some bearing on Stalin's life. Seems notable enough for me. Lisiate 01:11, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If he had bearings on Stalin's life the article should be merged into Stalin. I have tried to give him a posthumous reputation. SqueakBox 17:04, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

In Montefiore's Young Stalin, there is quite information about Vissarion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andres68 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

from Vfd
On 17 Feb 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Votes for deletion/Vissarion Jughashvili for a record of the discussion.

Birth and Death
I have removed this article from the categories "1850 births" and "1890 deaths". This is speculation as it is not known exaclty when he was born and died.--Fox Mccloud 19:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Biography assessment rating comment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. --  Jreferee  (Talk) 08:30, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Vissarion Jughashvili


text:
Talk:List of early music ensembles

VfD
This article was listed for deletion on February 7 2005, the consensus was to keep it. see Votes for deletion/List of Early Music Ensembles. Rje 23:57, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

External links to sites of individual ensembles
This page appeared to be on the brink of turning into a web portal, rather than a Wikipedia index. I've therefore removed all of the external links at the bottom, including the special section on Waites which had no obvious raison d'être. If anybody wants to start a proper web portal (on an external site) for links to early music ensembles (not a bad idea) then it would be quite reasonable to link it from here. Acasson (talk) 20:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Once again this was turning into a web portal. I have therefore removed all entries from the list that had no links to Wikipedia articles, either for the band or any of the members, regardless of how well-known or otherwise the band in question might be. It's possible that I have left some in which have a link to an article about somebody of the same name who has nothing to do with the band; I will try to review and remove these too. Please do not add any new entries to this list unless there is an existing Wikipedia article to link to - and remember that that too must satisfy all the standard notability requirements. Acasson (talk) 20:03, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

 * I've now removed 6 further links with no supporting articles. See the History for details. Acasson (talk) 20:22, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Removal of non-notables, Feb 2015
Similar to the above, the list had again grown to include lots of ensembles without their own articles - and Wikipedia is not a web portal. I've removed all the ones without their own Wikipedia articles and have added a comment within the list. Squinge (talk) 13:09, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on List of early music ensembles. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040520194053/http://collegiumvocale.bydgoszcz.pl/ to http://collegiumvocale.bydgoszcz.pl/
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Non-notable entries
Once again, the page had become infested with red links. I've now removed them and added a hidden note advising against adding artistes who don't have their own WP pages. I suspect this may continue to happen periodically, so I'll try to keep an eye on the page. ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 19:31, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I am sorry, as I did not know the correct procedure for adding ensembles. Please be patient with me until I complete WP articles on the two notable ensembles that I had added to the list (SERBIA). Mihailo Ristic Biographer (talk) 05:51, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Addition of notable ensembles of Serbia
I would like to introduce myself properly because when I had made my first three edits on Wikipeadia I seem to have only signed in with my IP address, instead of logging in properly. Please be patient with me as I am a first time starter on Wikipedia and have not yet mastered the editing procedures and techniques (and had also forgotten my user name and password). Thank you for your understanding!

Mihailo Ristic (multimedia artist/writer/literary translator) Contact: mihailo.m.ristic@gmail.com Mihailo Ristic Biographer (talk) 05:46, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of early music ensembles


text:
Atbara

Atbara (sometimes Atbarah) (عطبرة ʿAṭbarah) is a city located in River Nile State in northeastern Sudan.

Because of its links to the railway industry, Atbara is also known as the 'Railway City'.

Atbara's population was recorded as 134,586 during the 2008 census.

History
The confluence of the Nile and its most northern tributary, the Atbarah River (Bahr-el-Aswad, or Black River) was a strategic location for military operations. in the year 1619 Atbara was conquered and sacked by forces of the Ethiopian Empire. In the Battle of Atbara, fought on 8 April 1898 near Nakheila, on the north bank of the river, Lord Kitchener's Anglo-Egyptian army defeated the Mahdist forces, commanded by Amir Mahmud Ahmad. Kitchener's strengthened position led to a decisive victory at the Battle of Omdurman on 2 September 1898, giving the British control over the Sudan.

The town was the centre of the Sudanese railway industry. Few trains are made here now and rail traffic is much reduced. The original station and unusual dome-shaped houses of railway workers remain. The first trade union in Sudan formed in 1946 among railroad workers in Atbara.

Perhaps because of the influence of the railway unions, Atbara is also considered by many to be the home of Sudanese communism. Jaafar Nimeiri, Sudan's president from 1969 to 1985, alternated between communism, capitalism, and Islamic fundamentalism – depending on who he was trying to get on his side and extract money from – and the communist phase had its stronghold around Atbara.

Atbara was also the starting point for mobilizations against the regime in December 2018.

Geography
Atbara is located at the junction of the Nile and Atbarah rivers.

Atbara is made up of several districts including Umbukole district which was home to the First Higher School in Atbara. Other districts include the railway district, Almurabaat, Alsawdana and Almatar.

Umbukole was originally the name given to a capital city in a northern state in Kurti county. It is now mostly remembered as the name of a small district in Atbara.

One of the major districts of Atbara is Al-Dakhla (الداخلة) in Arabic. Some still use the name Al-Dakhla referring to Atbara.

Climate
Atbara has a hot desert climate (Köppen climate classification BWh). The annual mean temperature reaches over 30 °C (86 °F) and the average highs exceed 40 °C (104 °F) during 7 months of the year. The annual average rainfall is 60 mm, mostly from July and August. Atbara is sunny, averaging 3,545 hours of bright sunshine per year or 81% of possible sunshine.

Economy
The trans-African automobile route — the Cairo-Cape Town Highway passes through Atbara.

Atbara is an important railway junction and railroad manufacturing centre, and most employment in Atbara is related to the rail lines. The Sudanese National Railway Company's headquarters are located in Atbara.

The city also is home to one of Sudan's largest cement factories, the Atbara Cement Corporation.

Notable residents
A well-known resident was Mandour Elmahdi, who wrote A Short History of the Sudan.

title: Atbara


text:
Seedeater

The seedeaters are a form taxon of seed-eating passerine birds with a distinctively conical bill.

Most are Central and South American birds that were formerly placed in the American sparrow family (Passerellidae), but are now known to be tanagers (Thraupidae) closely related to Darwins finches. Indeed, some of the birds listed here seedeaters are closer to these "finches", while the more "true" seedeaters form a clade with some tanagers. A few "atypical" seedeaters are closely related to certain tanagers, many of which (such as the flowerpiercers) have peculiarly adapted bills.

In addition, there are some African passerines called seedeaters. They belong to the serin genus (Serinus) of the true finch family (Fringillidae), but might need to be separated with their closest relatives in Crithagra.

American seedeaters
True seedeaters
 * Amaurospiza – blue seedeaters (4 species, tentatively placed here)
 * Dolospingus – white-naped seedeater
 * Oryzoborus – seed-finches (6 species, sometimes included in Sporophila)
 * Sporophila – typical seedeaters (some 30 species, 1 possibly recently extinct)

Related to Darwin's finches
 * Euneornis – orangequit
 * Loxigilla – Antillean bullfinches (4 species)
 * Loxipasser – yellow-shouldered grassquit
 * Melanospiza – St. Lucia black finch
 * Melopyrrha – Cuban bullfinch
 * Tiaris – typical grassquits (5 species)

Atypical seedeaters
 * Acanthidops – peg-billed finch
 * Catamenia (3 species)
 * Haplospiza (2 species)

Relatives of true seedeaters

These tanagers are the true seedeaters' closest relatives:
 * Charitospiza – coal-crested finch
 * Lophospingus (2 species)
 * Sicalis – yellow-finches (12 species)
 * Volatinia – blue-black grassquit

African seedeaters

 * Southern yellow-rumped seedeater, Serinus atrogularis
 * Thick-billed seedeater, Serinus burtoni
 * Lemon-breasted seedeater, Serinus citrinipectus
 * Yellow-throated seedeater, Serinus flavigula
 * Streaky-headed seedeater, Serinus gularis
 * Protea seedeater, Serinus leucopterus
 * White-rumped seedeater, Serinus leucopygius
 * Black-eared seedeater, Serinus mennelli
 * Reichard's seedeater, Serinus reichardi
 * Principe seedeater, Serinus rufobrunneus
 * Streaky seedeater, Serinus striolatus
 * Brown-rumped seedeater, Serinus tristriatus
 * Abyssinian yellow-rumped seedeater, Serinus xanthopygius

title: Seedeater


text:
Stone's Been Rolled Away

Stone's Been Rolled Away is the second album in the live praise and worship series of contemporary worship music by Hillsong Church. In 1997 the album was certified gold by Australian Recording Industry Association (ARIA) for shipment of 35000 units.

Making of the album
Stone's Been Rolled Away was recorded live by Geoff Bullock, Darlene Zschech and the Hillsong team. This is the first album from Hillsong Church that was released on video as well as CD, Cassette and Music Book.

Album design
Stone's Been Rolled Away was designed by Wyld Concepts Graphics & Promotions. The front cover features a Ken Duncan panograph of sand dunes. The cover artwork uses Times New Roman font for the title.

Several of the songs were written by Geoff Bullock.

Russell Fragar, Darlene Zschech, Robert & Debbie Eastwood, David Willersdorf, Daniel Grul, John Ezzy & Steve McPherson contributed to songs also.

Reception
In August 1999 Mike Rimmer of Cross Rhythms rated the album as 5 out of 10 and described the album as "There are a few classic songs that turn up here including the title song 'Jesus Lover of My Soul' and 'I Believe'. A couple of lovely moments but in truth this is far too ordinary to justify you spending your dosh here".

Track listing

 * 1) "The Stone's Been Rolled Away" (Geoff Bullock) - Lead Vocal: Darlene Zschech, b. Geoff Bullock
 * 2) "You Give Me Shelter" (Geoff Bullock) - Lead Vocal: Sylvia Pettit & Steve McPherson
 * 3) "Your Name" (Darlene Zschech) - Lead Vocals: David Evans, Sylvia Pettit & Darlene Zschech
 * 4) "I Bow My Knee (I'll Love You More)" (Robert & Debbie Eastwood) - Lead Vocals: Sylvia Pettit & David Evans
 * 5) "Let Your Presence Fall" (David Willersdorf) - Lead Vocal: Darlene Zschech, b. David Evans
 * 6) "Holy Spirit Come" (Bullock) - Lead Vocals: Geoff Bullock, Darlene Zschech, David Evans, Steve McPherson & Sylvia Pettit
 * 7) "Holy One of God" (Bullock) - Lead Vocals: Darlene Zschech, b. David Evans
 * 8) "I Believe" (Bullock) - Lead Vocals: Darlene Zschech & Steve McPherson
 * 9) "Make Me Your Servant" (Russell Fragar) - Lead Vocals: Darlene Zschech, David Evans & Steve McPherson
 * 10) "Jesus Lover of My Soul" (Daniel Grul, John Ezzy & Steve McPherson) - Lead Vocal: Darlene Zschech, b. David Evans
 * 11) "Oh Holy Spirit" (Bullock) - Lead Vocals: Geoff Bullock & Darlene Zschech
 * 12) "Within Your Love" (Bullock) - Lead Vocals: Sylvia Pettit, b. Geoff Bullock
 * 13) "I Surrender" (Bullock) - Lead Vocals: Sylvia Pettit, b. Steve McPherson
 * 14) "You Are the One" (Bullock) - Lead Vocals: Darlene Zschech

(b. = Lead Backing Vocal)

Credits
Worship Leader/Pastor Music Director Vocal Director Choir Directors
 * Geoff Bullock
 * Russell Fragar
 * Darlene Zschech
 * Annabelle Smart, Janine Bullock

Lead Vocals Backing Vocals
 * Darlene Zschech
 * Steve McPherson
 * David Evans
 * Sylvia Pettit
 * Lucy Fisher
 * Donia Makedonez
 * Rebecca King
 * Steve Ollis
 * Deborah de Jong
 * Gail Dunshea
 * Debbie Steinhardt
 * Nicholas Hood
 * Scott Haslem

Choir
 * Hills Christian Life Centre Singers

Piano Keyboards Guitars Acoustic Guitar (Unplugged) Bass Guitar Drums Percussion
 * Geoff Bullock
 * Russell Fragar
 * David Moyse, Allan Chard
 * Matthew Wakeling
 * Paul Ewing
 * Adam Simek
 * Stuart Fell

Executive Producer Producers Engineers Assistant Engineer Production Manager Front Of House Engineer Foldback Engineer
 * Brian Houston
 * Geoff Bullock, Russell Fragar
 * Jeff Todd, Russell Fragar
 * Andrew McPherson
 * Cameron Wade
 * Nick Asha
 * Peter Manlik

title: Stone's Been Rolled Away


text: Talk:Stone's Been Rolled Away

title: Talk:Stone's Been Rolled Away


text:
Salto

Salto may refer to:

Settlements

 * Salto, Buenos Aires, Argentina
 * Salto Partido, a provincial subdivision
 * Salto, São Paulo, Brazil
 * Salto, Cape Verde
 * Salto, Cidra, Puerto Rico
 * Salto, San Sebastián, Puerto Rico
 * Salto, Portugal, a parish in the municipality of Montalegre
 * Salto, Uruguay
 * Salto Department
 * Roman Catholic Diocese of Salto, Uruguay

Rivers and lakes

 * Lago del Salto, a lake in Lazio, Italy
 * Salto River (Paraíba), Brazil
 * Salto River (Costa Rica)

People

 * Álvaro Salto (born 1974), Spanish golfer
 * Kasper Salto (born 1967), Danish industrial designer

Other uses

 * Salto (film), a 1965 Polish drama
 * Salto, a somersault in gymnastics
 * Salto, a type of suplex used in Greco-Roman, pro wrestling, amateur wrestling, and other contact sports
 * Salto F.C., a Uruguayan football club
 * Start + Flug H-101 Salto, an aerobatic glider
 * reuSable strAtegic space Launcher Technologies & Operations, a program of the European Commission
 * Salto (streaming service), a streaming service in France by France Télévisions, the TF1 Group and the Groupe M6

title: Salto


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andy Sevcik

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. Joyous 02:57, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

Andy Sevcik
non-notable — J3ff 00:01, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not-notable. RWH 00:47, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)
 * Delete. - Jpo 00:50, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. - Shanes 01:04, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not notable. Zzyzx11 02:26, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, obvious personal attack. Megan1967 06:18, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy #11. Created purely to attack its subject. Trilobite (Talk) 10:30, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete -- Speedy? Longhair 10:08, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bobby Houghton

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP. —Korath (Talk) 07:18, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

Bobby Houghton
This single-sentence sub-stub article reads "Bobby Houghton was a former coach of the Colorado Rapids in 1996", end of article. This individual turns up 800 hits on google. Are major league coaches inherently noteworthy? GRider\talk 00:02, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. The Wikipedians working on the articles of the major sports leagues, including Major League Soccer, have been creating articles for each and every head coach. Zzyzx11 02:15, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. He was a head coach of a major-league sports team, and furthermore it appears he was their first head coach. --Idont Havaname 02:20, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep If he was the first head cosch of the team, that's of general/ noteworthy interes EggplantWizard 03:29, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Bobby Houghton was head coach of the Chinese Football Association, and helped turn around the struggling team. He's also been known to implement effective soccer (football) programs for teams that are... ahem... soccer-challenged. I added some very basic information on his being coach of China's soccer team, based on the following article on FIFA's web site. Hopefully someone with more knowledge on this person can help out, or I'd be glad to continue adding information when I have more time. --Deathphoenix 06:14, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable. Trilobite (Talk) 10:33, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Nateji77 14:25, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I can see where the confusion lay, since it gave the impression that managing the Colorado Rapids was the highlight of his career. Far from it of course, he managed Malmo to a Champion's cup final in 1979, he managed the Chinese national football squad in the late 1990's. Average Earthman 14:34, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Spinboy 21:16, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable soccer coach at national and club levels Capitalistroadster 09:13, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep for *.* reasons above. —RaD Man (talk) 11:31, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep -- Longhair 10:03, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Duh. --Dryazan 15:08, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Don't be ridiculous - David Gerard 23:16, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable. Carrp | Talk 06:37, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text: Template:National volleyball team

title: Template:National volleyball team


text:
Talk:Mary Tudor, Queen of France

Duke of Milan
<> Can we be more precise about when the Duke of Milan was a young girl?
 * I have just fixed the sentence.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Untitled
Anyone else think this article should be moved to something like Mary Tudor (Queen Consort of France) or Mary Tudor (daughter of Henry VII) and Mary Tudor made into a disambiguation page, or even redirected to Bloody Mary who would then have a disambiguation link at the top of her page? I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone on the street who would think of the Duke of Suffolk's wife when presented with the name "Mary Tudor" before thinking of England's last Catholic Queen regnant. If I don't hear from anyone within three days, I'll set about disambiguating.

Incidentally, Bloody Mary's page does already have a link to this page under "See Also", but this seems a little odd to me as this isn't a page really connected with her at all (other than a brief mention that she was named after this Mary Tudor); rather, I'd guess someone knew that a little disambiguation was needed but wasn't quite sure of the best way to go about it.Binabik80 00:02, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * My apologies - I missed the bit about three days. I thought this was such a good idea that I've already implemented it tonight. Ian Cairns 02:32, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Birth date
This article gives her birth date as March 28, 1496. However, tutorhistory.org gives it as March 18. This can't be an Old Style-New Style difference, because the New Style calendar was not in use anywhere in Mary's lifetime. And besides, the (theoretical) difference would be only 9 days in 1496. Are we to take it that there is some doubt about the date of her birth? Rbraunwa 16:35, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes. This reference says 1495 and says that 1496 is wrong. Deb (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * More recent citations, such as David Loades in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography say 'the first half of 1496, probably in March'. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:04, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Relations with Anne Boleyn
Part of the article reads:

 * In France was where Mary and Anne Boleyn became good friends. Mary was left with only Anne after her other ladies in waiting left her. It is possible Anne stayed because King Henry VIII had taken a liking to her. Mary confided many secrets to Anne, one of which was that she was in love with Charles Brandon. Their friendship ended when Anne became Henry VIII's wife. Mary felt sorry for the Queen Catherine of Aragon, some say because she too had to leave the love of her life for marriage.

Does anyone know if the references cited support this (unfortunately, I haven't read them)? Is it really likely that Henry had taken a liking to Anne at this point? She would have only been about 13 or so, and had been in the Netherlands for some time prior to going to France; and according to Alison Weir's Henry VIII: King and Court, the romance between Henry and Anne actually only began in about 1526. And do we know that Mary and Anne became good friends - we certainly know that Mary loathed Anne at a later date (at a point several years prior to Henry and Anne's marriage). Do we know what Mary confided to Anne, if anything?

I'd be in favour of removing this section (unless it can be supported, of course), but as it seems to have been removed and reinstated in the past, I wonder what anyone else thinks? Mrabbits 20:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Removed. Mrabbits 13:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Why did Mary die at 37?

She suffered from the sweating sickness and it is believed that she never recovered from it. However, many historians believe she probably died from cancer. Virgosky 15:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Relationship with henry
Apparently They were each others favourite siblings. Or at least she was Henry's due to the Ship "The Mary Rose" and his first born Mary Tudor. is there anyware we could put that as i haven't read it on the page?OsirisV 17:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC) I don't think the names are necessarily siginificant, however I agree that it has been suggested that she was his favourite sibling. His other siblings died young, except Margaret who went to Scotland aged around twelve. Mary remained in England most of her life and so was probably the sibling closest to him. However, to add it in, you would need to cite a reliable source.Boleyn (talk) 17:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Mary Tudor - Suffolk, the mysterious Lady of The The Lady and the Unicorn ?
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/jacky.lorette

You will see, with The Lady and the Unicorn, we are far from the simple interpretation usually known of the Five Senses !

The tapestries of The Lady and the Unicorn were woven for Antoine Le Viste, perhaps in Brussels, Tournai or Bruges. They can be the work of the painter Jean Perréal, known as Jehan of Paris.

The mysterious Lady is Mary Tudor, third wife of Louis XII and sister of Henry VIII, who was the queen of France from August to December 1514.

The second woman is Claude of France, wife of François 1st.

The six tapestries, currently visible in the Museum of the Middle Ages and the Thermal Baths of Cluny in Paris, part of a series of eight tapestries, tell various episodes of Mary's life in France.

My interpretation is the result of a deep, meaningful and serious examination of all the details which, for some people, had gone unnoticed or were never considered with enough rigour.

I would be very happy to read your remarks and your suggestions about my interpretation : please, write me on : jacky.lorette@laposte.net

1- The Taste : Mary, queen of France, sends jewels to her brother. The supposed candies and fruits are pearls.

2- The Hearing : Louis XII died in the night of December 31, 1514 to January 1, 1515. Mary (called White Queen) has been locked up for 40 days in the Hotel of Cluny, the current museum where the tapestries are exhibited, a time to know if she is pregnant of the late king. Let us notice that Mary and the unicorn are pregnant. To save time until the arrival of Charles Brandon or to get revenge for the attitude of Louise of Savoy, Mary simulated a pregnancy by dissimulating on her belly fabrics of linen.

3- The Sight : Mary fears her return to England. To persuade her brother Henry VIII, she sends him the "Mirror of Napoli" brought back with so many other treasures of Naples by Charles VIII, a diamond of very great value. She marries secretly, again at the Hotel of Cluny, Charles Brandon (that the unicorn represents), the duke of Suffolk.

4- The Smell : Mary is not queen any more, she loses her French crown. She removes one by one the French eyelets from her crown which she will replace by English roses.

5- The Touch n° 1 (the Tent - My only desire) : Mary waits in Calais for the boat to Dover. It is the moment for each one to formulate his desire, that of Mary, that of Antoine Viste, and why not that of the painter. Two remarks which indicate the achievement of a cycle : Mary wears a red dress like the one she wore on her arrival in Abbeville, the same dress as in the Taste and she puts in the jewel case the necklace that she wears in the Taste, at the very beginning of the series. The painter insists on showing that the French cycle of Mary is completed and that she finds her original purity back, without fault and sin.

6- Pavie - The Touch n°2 : Mary is not present on this tapestry weaved to evoke the anger of the financier and the painter against François the 1st after the defeat of the French army to Pavie in 1525. François the 1st, loser and prisoner in Madrid, is depicted under the lines of animals carrying a necklace or an obstacle. The coalition so appears : Henry VIII is the unicorn, Charles the Fifth is the lion, The "Connétable" of Bourbon is the Lady under the lines of his aunt in Athéna, Anne de Beaujeu, who was the one that Louis XII called with Mary when she came in France in 1515. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.8.135.102 (talk) 15:27, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Portrait
Doubt has recently been raised as to the identity of the sitter in the portrait originally attached to this article. It has traditionally been assumed to be Mary Tudor Queen of France due not to provenance or scholarship but to the fact that the sitter resembles Henry VIII, Mary's brother. However, the jewels - which are the Crown Jewels of Castile - and the 1490s style dress - which would be wildly anachronistic for the 1510-1520 period, let alone later - point to it being more likely Isabella I of Castile. (A less likely possiblity is her daughter Juana I of Castile, but as I wrote the style of the dress and the age of the sitter would argue against it.)

This is currently being discussed among Tudor historians so we can't absolutely say yet that the disputed image is *not* Mary, but as we have another image of her that is indisputedly Mary Tudor Queen of France I thought it better to replace the disputed image with the undisputed one. --24.244.29.54 (talk) 19:02, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Image
Changed image as it seems has a more likeness of the Mary than the other maybe wrong Lew 283 (talk) 19:23, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mary Tudor, Queen of France


text:
Kaidu

Kaidu (Middle Mongol:, Qayidu, Modern Mongol: Хайду Haidu, ; ; c. 1230 – 1301) was a grandson of the Mongol khagan Ögedei (1185–1241) and thus leader of the House of Ögedei and the de facto khan of the Chagatai Khanate, a division of the Mongol Empire. He ruled parts of modern-day Xinjiang and Central Asia during the 13th century, and actively opposed his uncle, Kublai, who established the Yuan dynasty. Medieval chroniclers often mistranslated Kadan as Kaidu, mistakenly placing Kaidu at the Battle of Legnica. Kadan was the brother of Güyük, and Kaidu's uncle.

Early life
Kaidu was born in c. 1235–1236 as the posthumous son of Kashin (Qashi) and therefore a grandson of Ögedei Khan and Töregene Khatun, and a great-grandson of Genghis Khan and Börte. His mother was Sebkine Khatun from the Bekrin (Mekrin) tribe of mountaineers, who were "neither Mongols, nor Uighurs".

Following the Toluid accession to the throne of the great khans, Kaidu was among the few favored Ögedeid princes, and was invested with Qayaliq (now Qoylık southeast of Lake Balkhash in southeastern Kazakhstan) by Möngke Khan in 1252. Although not a particularly great appanage, Qayaliq is described as a prosperous city with busy markets, churches, and temples by William of Rubruck, who passed through in 1253. In 1260, Marco Polo described Yarkand, part of the area under Kaidu as "five days' journey in extent"; that its inhabitants were mostly Muslim although there were also some Nestorian and Jacobite Assyrians; and that it had plenty of food and other necessities, "especially cotton." Nevertheless, despite benefiting from the favor of Möngke, Kaidu arrested the khan's envoy, the judge Shi Tianlin, in 1256, and held him prisoner for twenty years. In the Toluid Civil War between 1260 and 1264, when Möngke's brothers Kublai Khan and Ariq Böke, who was proclaimed Great Khan at Karakorum, disputed the throne, Kaidu is said to have supported Ariq Böke. This is not entirely certain, as Kublai still apportioned a share of the profits of new conquests in China to Kaidu as late as 1265. At any rate, excluded from Kublai's partition of the Mongol territories among the princes, Kaidu would enter into protracted conflict with Kublai and his Ilkhanid allies. With the Chagatayid Khan Alghu supporting Kublai as great khan and ravaging Kaidu's lands, the latter made an alliance with Berke, the ruler of the Golden Horde.

Conquest of Transoxiana
After the defeat of Ariq Böke in 1264, Kublai summoned Kaidu to his court, possibly to discuss the future of the empire and give Kaidu his share of the Ögedeid appanage in China. But Kaidu avoided appearing at his court and said that his horses were too thin to bear long distance travel. Because Genghis Khan had made a law that all branches of the family had to approve the granting of the title of Great Khan, Kaidu's enmity or uncooperation was a constant obstacle to Kublai's ambitions.

In 1266 Baraq was dispatched to Central Asia to take the throne of Chagatai. Kublai instigated Baraq to attack Kaidu in 1268. At first Baraq defeated Kaidu, however, subsequently, Kaidu defeated Baraq the assistance of Berke's successor Möngke-Temür. When Baraq advanced towards Kaidu, the latter set a trap for the invader's troops on the bank of the Jaxartes, and defeated his forces. Transoxiana was then ravaged by Kaidu. Baraq fled to Samarkand, then Bukhara, plundering the cities along the way in an attempt to rebuild his army. These actions alarmed Kaidu, who did not want the region to be further devastated. Kaidu also needed to free up his army for a potential conflict with Kublai. Peace was therefore proposed, and Baraq was pressured by the governors of the sedentary areas of the khanate, Mas'ud Beg and Daifu, to accept. He did, and peace was declared at a kurultai, although sources disagree on the time and location. Rashid al-Din claims that the meeting took place in the spring of 1269 in Talas (then called Yangi), while Wassaf writes that it took place around 1267 to the south of Samarkand. Either way, two-thirds of Transoxiana were granted to Baraq, while the other third went to Kaidu and Möngke-Temür. Kaidu also gained control of the region around Bukhara. Neither side gained control of the cities; the administration of these instead devolved to Mas'ud Beg, while Baraq and Kaidu agreed to reside only in the deserts and mountains.

Zenith of Kaidu's power
Seeking to rid himself of Baraq, Kaidu encouraged him to attack Ilkhanid Persia. Following some initial success, Baraq suffered a serious defeat at Herat on July 22, 1270 at the hands of the Ilkhan Abaqa, after having been abandoned by Kaidu's troops and Kaidu had advised Abaqa accordingly. Defeated and wounded, Baraq sought Kaidu's help, who reassured him but prepared to encircle and eliminate him. Baraq died before the attack, in August 1271. The Chagatayid princes, including Alghu's sons and Baraq's predecessor Mubarak Shah, submitted to Kaidu, who was invested as ruler of the previously dispersed Ulus of Ögedei at a kurultai at Talas in August/September 1271. Despite this success, Kaidu did eventually encounter opposition: the sons of Alghu and Baraq rebelled in the west and caused much damage, although Kaidu defeated them in the end. Some of the rebels fled to the Ilkhanate, from which they could raid into Kaidu's territory, while others recognized the supremacy of Kublai. Kaidu's early attempt to rule the Chagatayids faced other resistance, even from Negübei, whom Kaidu himself had appointed khan of the Ulus of Chagatai as Baraq's successor in 1271. Kaidu defeated the challenge and Negübei fled, only to be murdered by a cousin, Buqa Temür, in 1272. Kaidu now rewarded Buqa Temür by making him khan of the Ulus of Chagatai. The new khan was no threat to Kaidu, in part because of his physical feebleness, but that also meant that he could not ensure stability in the Ulus by curtailing the attacks of the rebels. Greater stability ensued only after Kaidu appointed Baraq's able and cooperative son Duwa the new khan of the Ulus of Chagatai in 1282.

In 1268, Kaidu had been defeated by the forces of the great khan Kublai in the area of Almaliq, and was forced to regroup in the west, round Talas. To guard against Kaidu, Kublai posted his son Nomukhan and other loyal princes to the region in 1271. The successes of Kublai's general An Tong gave Kaidu pause (or at least he pretended to consider the great khan's demands), but in the end he refused to submit. However, in 1276 a group of princes rebelled, seeking to make Möngke's son Shiregi great khan, and captured Nomukhan, his brother Kököchü, and their general An Tong. Kublai's two sons were then sent off to Möngke Temür in the west, while the general was handed over to Kaidu. Nevertheless, prioritizing his troubles in the west, Kaidu refused to support the rebel princes. They managed to seize Karakorum in 1277, but were quickly driven west of the Altai Mountains by Kublai's generals. The conflict continued until 1282, when the rebels acknowledged defeat; some submitted to the great khan, while others sought refuge with Kaidu.

Kaidu benefited from the princes' revolt against Kublai, as it left him free to deal with opposition from within the Ulus of Chaghatai. Having solidified his position in the west, he was also able to recover control over Almaliq in the east, and further enhanced his military capabilities by the absorption of the forces of the rebel princes who surrendered to him. For his part, Kublai struck back with economic reprisals and ensconced his forces at Beshbaliq from 1278, and proceeded to establish a chain of postal stations and military colonies in Uighuria and along the edge of the Tarim Basin. However, by now Kaidu was stronger than before, and he and his underlings (including the Chagatayid khan Duwa) raided across Kublai's line of stations from 1280. After varied success, Kaidu and Duwa were able to take over Beshbaliq in 1286, forcing Kublai's troops to evacuate Uighuria and the Tarim Basin over the following years. From his newly gained lands, Kaidu could threaten areas within Kublai's area of control, like Qumul and Tibet.

When Nayan rebelled against Kublai in Manchuria in 1287 as head of a coalition of the descendants of Chinggis Khan's brothers, he sought Kaidu's support. Unlike his earlier refusal to support the rebel princes against Kublai, this time Kaidu agreed. Nevertheless, Kublai acted quickly, and was able to defeat, capture, and execute Nayan before the latter could join forces with Kaidu. Undaunted, Kaidu exploited Kublai's preoccupation in Manchuria to raid into northwestern Mongolia proper in 1288, defeating Kublai's grandson Kammala and capturing the old capital Karakorum in 1289. When Kublai himself advanced on Kaidu, however, Kaidu retreated. Kublai's commander Bayan was now stationed in the region, with the aim of expelling any remaining forces of Kaidu's and repulsing future attacks.

Later defeats and death
Kaidu's brief occupation of Karakorum can be seen as the culmination of his success. His retreat, however, was quickly followed by reverses at the hands of Kublai's commanders, especially Bayan (who defeated Ariq Böke's son Melik Temür in 1292) and Tuq Tuqa (who carried operations west of the Altai mountains and captured three thousand of Kaidu's men in 1293). Tuq Tuqa's successes are credited with discouraging Kaidu from trying to take advantage of Kublai's death in 1294. The new great khan, Temür, Öljeitü Khan (1294–1307), abandoned Kublai's distracting ambitions towards Japan and Southeast Asia, and was therefore able to devote more substantial military forces to the campaign against Kaidu. Despite this resurgence, Kaidu and Duwa were able to minimize or even reverse any temporary losses.

After considering a potential coalition against Kaidu and Duwa with the Ilkhan and Bayan of Eastern Qipchaq, the great khan Temür left operations against them to his brother Kammala and nephew Qayishan. Following Duwa's success in a surprise attack in late 1298 (in which Temür's brother-in-law Körküz was captured), Temür adopted a more aggressive policy, and organized a major campaign against Kaidu and his allies. The attack came in 1300, with Qayishan defeating Kaidu and advancing west of the Altai Mountains. Determined to fight again, Kaidu ordered Duwa to join with him, but Duwa initially refused to come, citing the exhaustion and poor health of his troops and herds. Although badly outnumbered and still delaying in the hope of receiving aid from Duwa, Kaidu was forced to make his stand south of the Altai Range, at Mount Tiejiangu, on 3 September, 1301. Here, Kaidu was wounded and suffered a serious defeat; only a ruse, lighting numerous camp fires during the night following the battle saved him from pursuit, as the enemy assumed he had received large reinforcements. Eventually, Duwa did come with reinforcements and at a follow-up battle a little farther to the west, at the presently unidentified Qaraqada, Kaidu and Duwa scored some success, although Qayishan managed to relieve them of their booty and prisoners, while Duwa was wounded in a separate engagement. The final battle of the conflict was effectively a draw: both Qayshan and Kaidu had to retreat to their power bases after it. Kaidu had weathered the storm, for the time being; but his forces were badly battered, he himself had been wounded, and he died shortly afterwards, late in 1301.

Sometimes considered to have aimed at nothing less than the position of great khan, Kaidu seems to have been concerned with reestablishing the Ulus of Ögedei and asserting its control over that of Chagatai. His long-term opposition to the great khans allowed the emergence not only of an effectively independent Mongol state in Central Asia (ultimately to the benefit of the Chagatais), but also made possible the corresponding formation of other parts of the Mongol Empire as effectively independent khanates, in Qipchaq and Iran. Nevertheless, Kaidu's relationship with the other Mongol rulers, the great khans apart, was complex. He had asserted his domination over the Ulus of Chagatai by force, and only found significant cooperation, which lasted for two decades, once he installed Duwa as khan in 1282. The Ilkhanids, generally allied to the great khans Kublai and Temür, were usually Kaidu's rivals across a common frontier on or near the Oxus, although Kaidu found it convenient to connive with the Ilkhan Abaqa against Baraq in the early 1270s. By 1288, however, Kaidu was at war with the Ilkhan, raiding into Khurasan and supporting rebels against the Ilkhan there. The conflict continued until after Kaidu's death, his son Sarban invading Khurasan in 1302. The Jochid rulers of Qipchaq, the so-called Golden Horde, Berke and Möngke Temür, were instrumental in Kaidu's rise to power. Although he remained basically friendly, Möngke Temür later exhibited a degree of cooperation to the great khan, effectively adopting a neutral stance; his cousins Qonichi and Bayan, rulers of the eastern wing of the Golden Horde, on the other hand, were Kaidu's neighbors along the Jaxartes, and quickly became his rivals over territory and revenue. Accordingly, Kaidu and Duwa supported another of their kinsmen, Küilük, as rival ruler in the region. During the civil war between Toqta and Nogai, Kaidu enjoyed the friendship of Nogai, whose elimination in 1299 deprived him of a potential ally.

Legacy
Kaidu had perhaps intended for his youngest son by his chief wife Dörbejin, Orus, to succeed him as ruler of the Ulus of Ögedei. The Chagatayid khan Duwa, however, secured the succession of Kaidu's elder son Chapar, either because of friendship, or because Chapar was deemed conveniently weak and pliable. Threatened by another coalition of neighboring Mongol rulers, Duwa and Chapar made peace with the great khan Temür in 1303–1304. Although Duwa had remained loyal to Kaidu until the end, he now sought to exploit his own seniority and position of power vis-a-vis Kaidu's heirs. Chapar fell out with Duwa by 1306, who outmaneuvered him militarily and diplomatically, and finally forced him to surrender by early 1307. Chapar was now retired and replaced by his brother Yangichar. Although Duwa himself died later in 1307 and the Ulus of Chagatai underwent a brief period of instability, Duwa had effectively reversed the situation of Kaidu's reign, largely eliminating the Ulus of Ögedei as a viable Mongol power. It was he and his descendants, who reaped the harvest of Kaidu's establishment of an autonomous Mongol polity in Central Asia. Kaidu's heirs were divided and marginalized, Yangichar and Chapar both submitting to Qayishan, now Külüg Khan (1307–1311) in 1310. Ögedeid princes entered the services of other rulers, and the Chagatai khans allowed the former Ögedeid powerbase in the northeast to pass under the rule of the great khans.

Family
Kaidu (Qayidu) was the posthumous son of Qashi (by Sebkine Khatun), the fifth son of Ögedei Khan (by Töregene Khatun). The number of his children is reported variously, but only the following are known by name.

Sons:
 * Chapar, who succeeded his father in 1301, but was deposed in 1307
 * Yangichar, who succeeded his brother in 1307, but died in 1310
 * Orus, who was possibly Kaidu's intended heir
 * Ürük Temür
 * Töde'en
 * Il Buyan (or Īl Tūyār or El Nobar)
 * ʿUmar Khwājah
 * Qahawur (or Qudāwur or Töde'ür)
 * Quril
 * Sorqa Buqa (or ʿUrqā Tūqā)
 * Yisün Buqa (or Eygü Buqa)
 * Li Bakhshi (or Tai Bakhshi)
 * Sarban
 * Könchek
 * Bariqi (or Dörji?)
 * Shāh
 * Köichi
 * Burja Ebügen

Daughters:
 * Qutulun Chaghan, married Abtaqul.
 * Qutuchin Chaghan (or Qortochin Chakha), married Tübshin, the son of Tazai Güregen (who had married a niece of Kublai Khan).

Although Kaidu had many sons, he is said to have relied mostly on his daughter Qutulun for advice and aid in military matters.

Cultural references
Kaidu is often portrayed in historical fiction or dramatic works. He was an antagonist in The Journeyer, a novel by Gary Jennings published in 1984. The character of Kaidu was portrayed by Rick Yune in the Netflix original series, Marco Polo (2015–2016).

Kaido is an antagonist in the series One Piece, "Kaido of the hundred beasts" which is said to be the strongest 'creature' in the One Piece world, Kaido resembles the Mongol warrior Kaidu, and he has a daughter named "Yamato" that is loosely inspired by the famous Khutulun.

title: Kaidu


text: Category:American trade union leaders

title: Category:American trade union leaders


text: Category:Stafford

title: Category:Stafford