text:
Talk:Argument from nonbelief

Real word?
I couldn't find "omnibenevolent" in Wiktionary or Dictionary.com. While it's definition is pretty self-evident, is it actually a real word? --LtNOWIS 02:44, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes. --Maru 16:50, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's very common in philosophical texts. Dylan 00:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, omnibenevolent was added to Wiktionary in 2008. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 20:15, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

I would not reference any other texts to prove existence of this word. Please keep in mind that language develops as we form words with our mouths, then is committed to paper using symbols to represent those sounds. If you can use etymological resources to define the prefix omni as all inclusive, and benevolent to mean helpful and good willed, then you can understand the word that came out of my mouth when I say "omnibenevolent".

The self evidence of its meaning is what may soon put this word in the dictionary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.30.170.151 (talk) 07:30, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

So what's the difference from nonbelief to evil?
What is the difference between the problem of evil and Argument from nonbelief? It seems to be the same from a different point of view and therefore easily unifyable: You just equal "not believing" with "not obeying or ignoring gods moral amendments" and nonbelief equals imoral and evil. Common practice in religion. "You're either good or bad, go to heaven or hell, belief in this god or don't, are with us/god or against us/god." Religion seems intollerant to neutrality and calls evrything "is not good" autimatically "is evil", therefore "nonbelief" equals "evil" and both arguments are unified.

Any dogma here?

====

Evil is hard to measure and nebulous, whereas belief and relationships are much more easily defined. Essentially, if a god existed and wanted people to believe in it, it should be able to go to every individual person and say hello in such a fashion where people would believe. It's a very clear and measurable metric.

Terrible, absolutely terrible
This is by far one of the worst written articles I've ever come across. I know that isn't saying much for Wikipedia, but the way this article is worded, particularly the "Summary of proposed resolutions" section, simply amazes me. I have never seen such an awful display of rhetoric. The extent of unnecessary wordiness and illogical orderings/bulletings is astounding. I cannot even being to attempt to salvage anything that makes any kind of normal sense in this article.

69.0.39.195 03:26, 02 January 2007

 * Well, this is quite a fringe article, most editor attention go to more common arguments. Maybe I will work on this one a bit, because I think it is quite a good argument. --Merzul 00:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I think it is a terrible argument. --69.0.39.195 09:38, 09 January 2007

 * I think he meant argument in the sense of a bust-up, barney or ding-dong, not in the sense of cogent justificationary support for a claim.1Z 22:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Your pretentious language is even worse than the article itself. And the guy above (who wrote volumes) really needs a life. 69.37.105.233 04:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I wish I had the time to continue writing volumes... Hopefully though, some day I will find the time to do some of the issue on the TODO list. --Merzul 14:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

 * If you want, add a section on Matt Dillahunty's take on it. It's short and designed for non-philosophers. If a god existed that wanted people to know it existed, and could do something about it, then everyone would know that a god existed and there would be no atheists. That god would go around, say hi to everyone in a way that would be clear, and everyone would believe that god existed. Since there are nonbelievers, we can say that no god exists that both wants people to know it exists and could do something about it.

Theodore Drange's argument
This part was marked as NOR, and it probably is, so I'm dumping it here:

A shortcut of this argument is as follows: God gave us complete unawareness; therefore various paths are realized. He cannot say they are realized against his will, because his decision whilst creating the world guaranteed there will be no sooths. The less prerequisites, the more nearing are the probabilities of various options and therefore their relative frequency tends to be equal. And vice versa, the more knowledge, the more probable (and therefore dominant) is one path over another. (Actually, Christianity in the Middle Ages used to explain e.g. attacks of faithless Normans as 'the punishment for the sins', therefore admitting these peoples were there in God plans.) In short: God wanted relativism (and actually it is hard to talk about free will when anyone since their birth thinks the same).

Summary of proposed resolutions
If anyone is willing to work on Drange's argument that would be good, it is mostly discussed online. --Merzul 19:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Some theists dispute premise 1.3, arguing that God's desire for a free willed belief in him is more important than the desire for all humans to believe that he exists before they die.
 * Others argue against premise 3 by saying that everyone does in fact believe in God, even atheists. Some say humans are born with the God-given "faith of a child" — a faith of trust, love and absolute purity — which is corrupted, but not lost, through contact with a world of evil, pain, selfishness, and harm. According to this argument, everyone retains their faith, even if they don't realize it, so unbelief doesn't truly exist.
 * A common response is to assert that anyone calling the atheist an unwitting (or unacknowledged) theist may be an unwitting atheist oneself, given the same uncertainty. As such, the rebuttal is a tu quoque, though not necessarily invalid.
 * One popular theodicy is fideism. This states that if God revealed himself he would take away our freedom to believe or not believe. Or, in the same vein, God wants our choice to follow and worship him to be genuine and one not motivated by blind fear of hell. This brings point 1.3 into question. The usual responses are that:
 * having strong evidence for a proposition doesn't deprive us of freedom, it only gives us good reason to believe;
 * post-revelation worship could and would often still be quite genuine (think of non-Christians just waiting for the right evidence to come along);
 * belief and worship are not the same thing, and compelled belief in God is not equivalent to compelled worship.
 * Another possibility is that faith in and of itself is something God wants humans to develop without divine prodding, meaning point 1.3 is false. Faith may be some valuable power that is not just a means whereby we can obey God. (This is a tenet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for one.)
 * A counter-argument is this would mean that because we have no director of our beliefs, then they are arbitrary (or caused by biological reasons and circumstances, for that matter) and therefore men cannot be punished for misbelief.
 * God might allow conversion after death. If that's so, whether people come to believe in him before or after death is irrelevant, so point 1.1 is untrue.
 * Open theists, who do not hold God to be omnipotent, would likely contest point 1.2. It might be too great a challenge for God to bring about a situation in which everyone believes in him.

Capitalization of God, and masculine pronoun
I reverted a well-intended edit that changed the style of the article. The reason is that all the sources, both atheist and theist, that discuss this argument refer to God with a capital G. This entire argument has developed in a Judeo-Christian setting, and if we are discussing Schellenberg's argument, I think we should follow the style that all the sources of this article are using. Note that I don't feel strongly about this, and if anyone feels the genderless god is more appropriate I won't present any further objection. --Merzul 14:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "The reason is that all the sources, both atheist and theist, that discuss this argument refer to God with a capital G". I didn't change the capitalisation on any references to God (other than pronouns, which clearly shouldn't be capitalised). I changed common nouns. Ilkali 17:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I see your point. You only changes things like "if there is a god". Yet, the sources do capitalize them, so I'm a bit worried that we are changing the meaning. In some sense, proving that there is no God is more narrow than proving that there is no god. This is a minor concern though, I'll leave it be, except the formalism that is taken directly from the source... --Merzul 17:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is that, as you're presumably aware, a significant number of theists habitually capitalise the word in all contexts, leaving us to try and determine which is intended. The safest and most natural reading in almost all cases is the common-noun one, and I think that's the one we should represent. Also, it's worth noting that the argument in question would apply to any deity with the relevant properties, so there's no sense in restricting it to the mishmash of entities commonly called 'God'.

 * Regarding the formalism: Mea culpa. I didn't realise it was a quotation when I was editing. Might be helpful to make it more clear in the article, to protect against people making the same mistake I did - perhaps something like "Schellenburg's formalization of the argument is as follows"? Ilkali 19:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 03:46, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Free will
Someone has added to the free will section:
 * "The question here is: does God have what he wants? E.g. if he wants people to believe or not basing only on who they are and what conditions they encountered, then the result is what we see: it might be other if people were other, or acted otherwise, but they don't, so the above question remains."

When I get the time I will expand a bit on this. This objection is questioning whether libertarian accounts of free will are possible. If they are not, then evil (and even more nonbelief) is a serious problem. For example Graham Oppy uses this reasoning in his "Why I am not a Christian":
 * If we suppose that claims about human free actions are intelligible, then it seems to me that it is a mistake to think that human beings have what philosophers call 'libertarian' freedom, as opposed to 'compatibilist' freedom. To act freely is simply to act on one's normally acquired beliefs and desires in the absence of certain kinds of constraints, and there is no inconsistency in the thought that actions that possess this kind of freedom have physical causes. On the libertarian conception of freedom, one acts freely only if, in the very circumstances in which one acted, it was within one's power to do otherwise--which is incompatible with efficient causation of action. But as I see it, the only alternative to efficient causation is absence of causation; and, if one's actions are only 'free' because they have no causes, then this is not a kind of 'freedom' worth wanting. Among the consequences of this view, two are particularly important. First, it is a mistake to suppose that the free choices of a supernatural agent might be 'ultimate' explainers: for if 'freedom' is libertarian, then what is appealed to ultimately has no explanation; and if 'freedom' is compatibilist, then free choices are no less in need of explanation than any other kinds of events. Second, given that freedom is 'compatibilist,' it is very hard to see how the presence of evil in the world might be explained in terms of the value that freedom possesses; for there surely are possible worlds in which agents always freely choose the good, and it is very hard to see why a perfect creator either could not or would not make one of those worlds if it made any world at all.

On the other hand, this rebuttal is better dealt with in argument from evil, I'm still thinking about how discuss those parts, which are actually the most important parts of this article. --Merzul (talk) 20:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

A few points from a lay agnostic ...
Fascinating article, but ...

1. Shouldn't the Bertrand Russell quote be referenced? 2. The following makes no sense. The question here is: does God have what he wants? E.g. if he wants people to believe or not basing only on who they are and what conditions they encountered, then the result is what we see: it might be other if people were other, or acted otherwise, but they don't, so the above question remains.[clarify] Someone has said earlier in the discussion that they intend to tidy up/expand on this bit. That would be helpful, but my main problem is grammar and sentence structure. Should 'basing" be "based"? 3. Re the earlier discussion about whether we are talking about "god" - deity in general - or "God" (Judeo-Christian) - surely this is an essential point, and the inconsistencies remain throughout the article.  I would tend to vote for capital-G "God" myself from what I understand of the argument. --V1oletv (talk) 00:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I also think that it needs to be pointed out that this arguing against a strict, Judeo Christian God, not just any god within any religion. Because for these arguements to work, we need to assume that God is one and such way and wants to reveal and stuff. So a more agnostic religion would dispute that on the assumptions alone. 69.85.154.45 (talk) 04:46, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Some issues and suggestions
I'm new to editing; I guess I should have suggested my May 20, 2013 revisions here instead of just putting them in. Sorry!

I have two issues:

1. The argument from divine hiddenness is the one atheists usually discuss. It is sometimes called the argument from reasonable nonbelief but never just the argument from nonbelief. 'The argument from nonbelief' is the label Theodore Drange gives his argument. So this article, in suggesting that 'argument from nonbelief' and 'argument from divine hiddenness' are two names for the same argument is misleading. I suggest that the article should be renamed 'argument from reasonable nonbelief' or 'argument from divine hiddenness' and that Drange's argument from nonbelief (without the 'reasonable') should be presented as an alternative to Schellenberg's approach. (Another way to deal with this would be to call 'argument from nonbelief' a more general label covering both Drange and Schellenberg. But I see now that this would probably count as 'original research.')

2. In the preface to the paperback version of his book (Cornell, 2006, p. viii) Schellenberg says that it is misleading to use the formal statement of his argument suggested at the beginning of chapter 4. According to him this is because, as he implies at the beginning of chapter 4, premise 2 is "grounded in the deeper claim...that if there is a perfectly loving God, anyone capable of explicit and positively meaningful relationship with God who is not resisting relationship with God is in a position to participate in such relationship." Belief is necessary for being in such a position and that's why reasonable nonbelief is problematic. This point is also emphasized in The Wisdom to Doubt, where Schellenberg restates the argument. So I suggest that either something should be said about this point in the article when the formal statement of Schellenberg's argument is given, or that statement should be replaced by the more up to date version in The Wisdom to Doubt.

Cheers!

Teecrosser 16:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teecrosser (talk • contribs)

 * Hi, about your two points:
 * You are right, and I actually agree with the change you attempted to make, but when you change the lead you may need to discuss them first, especially since you are attempting something that is borderline original research. I personally think it is the right way to go. It reminds me of the leads of atheism and free will, which are both original in the sense that no individual source defines the topic this way, but they are very good attempts to do justice to all definitions. I will try something along the ideas you proposed. Let me know what you think.
 * Here, you need to tweak the formulation a bit. This page is already highly essay-like, and you edit made it even more so. I mean "need to read two chapters"; you could, however, say that "Schellenberg subsequently regrets presenting a logical formulation of the argument as it trivializes the deeper issue of ..." Wikipedia prefers a much more objective style than the sometimes personal style that you find in the specialist literature.
 * Also, I hope you will not hesitate to edit the article. You seem to know much about the topic, so please do stay around and make changes. Regards, Vesal (talk) 19:23, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

One more thing
I noticed a small problem with how the argument is described at the very beginning of the article: "The premise of the argument is that if God existed (and wanted humanity to know it), he would have brought about a situation in which every reasonable person believed in him; however, there are reasonable unbelievers, therefore, this weighs against God's existence." The problem is with the part in parentheses: "(and wanted humanity to know it)". If this is included, then what follows from the two premises is not that God doesn't exist but that either God doesn't exist or God doesn't want humanity to know it. Since the argument is an argument for atheism, for 'God doesn't exist' full stop, something needs to be changed. I suggest that instead of 'and wanted humanity to know it' we put in the parentheses 'and has the traditional attributes' or 'and is perfectly good and loving'. According to the argument God wanting humanity to know God's existence isn't separate from God existing (as the present statement suggests) but part of it because included in the attributes of God.

Does anyone have a concern about my making a change here, or about my earlier suggestions above? If I don't get a response, I'll take it that no one does.

Teecrosser 18:38, 8 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teecrosser (talk • contribs)

 * You are absolutely right. Schellenberg does not assume that God wants to be known, he argues that this follows from God's moral perfection. Thank you for making the change. Vesal (talk) 18:57, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

My changes of 13/6/13
Most of the changes I made were discussed above. A few were done to remove typos or create consistency, and changes to the discussion of Murray and biblical references to Satan were introduced to make that discussion more coherent. I added a sentence to the Plantinga reference near the end to explain the point of the defence he uses when it is applied in the context of a discussion of divine hiddenness. Later I'll try to find some secondary sources to add to the discussion of Drange's argument. Teecrosser 15:10, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

"3.4 There really are no atheists defense" is not a counterargument.
3.4 says "This is the argument that all true atheists are at heart lying [...]". Accusing all atheists of lying is not a counterargument to their position. There are no references to support this accusation and the wording is messed up. I suggest deleting 3.4. --84.155.82.251 (talk) 13:37, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

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Deism / Pandeism / Pantheism
In Deism / Pandeism / Pantheism qua theology, the hiddenness of the deity is actually a feature and not a bug. Worth mentioning. Hyperbolick (talk) 01:03, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Argument from nonbelief


text:
Nail (unit)

A nail, as a unit of cloth measurement, is generally a sixteenth of a yard or 2 $1/undefined$ inches (5.715 cm). The nail was apparently named after the practice of hammering brass nails into the counter at shops where cloth was sold. On the other hand, R D Connor, in The weights and measures of England (p 84) states that the nail was the 16th part of a Roman foot, i.e., digitus or finger, although he provides no reference to support this. Zupko's A dictionary of weights and measures for the British Isles (p 256) states that the nail was originally the distance from the thumbnail to the joint at the base of the thumb, or alternately, from the end of the middle finger to the second joint.

An archaic usage of the term nail is as a sixteenth of a (long) hundredweight for mass, or 1 clove of 7 pound avoirdupois (3.175 kg).

The nail in literature
"Oh, monstrous arrogance! Thou liest, thou thread,

Thou yard, three-quarters, half-yard, quarter, nail

Thou flea, thou nit, thou winter cricket thou:―

Brav'd in mine own house with a skein of

thread!"

Explanation: Katherine and Petruchio are purchasing new clothes for Bianca's wedding. Petruchio is concerned that Katharine's dress has too many frills, wonders what it will cost, and suspects that he has been cheated. Katherine says she likes it, and complains that Petruchio is making a fool of her. The tailor repeats Katherine's words: Sir, she says you're making a fool of her. Petruchio then launches into the above-quoted tirade. Monstrous may be a double-entendre for cuckold. The half-yard, quarter and nail were divisions of the yard used in cloth measurement.

The nail in law
"VI. For reformation whereof, be it enacted That from and after the first day of April next coming every of the said cottons being sufficiently milled or thicked, clean scoured, well wrought and fully dried, shall weigh twenty-one pounds at the least and shall contain in length twenty-one goads, or twenty-goads at the least, and in breadth at the most three quarters of the yard, or within one nail of three quarters of the yard at the least: (2) And that every of the said frizes or rugs being thicked and fully dried shall weigh forty-four pounds at the least and shall contain in length betwixt thirty five-yards and thirty-seven yards, and shall contain in breadth at the most three quarters of the yard, or within one nail of three quarters at the least, and not to be strained upon the tentors above one nail in breadth."

"I. ...shall be made full Yard and Nail, or full Three Quarters of a Yard and Nail, that when whitened it may be full Yard or full Three Quarters of a Yard in Breadth...

II. ...for every Half a Quarter the Three Quarters Yard and Nail plain Cloth shall exceed the said Breadths, shall forfeit the Sum of for Five Shillings Sterling..."

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Nail (unit)


text:
Emanuel Horvatiček

Emanuel Horvatiček (born 22 June 1979 in Osijek, Osijek-Baranja) is a Croatian sprint canoer who competed in the mid-2000s. He competed at the 2004 Summer Olympics in Athens, but eliminated in the semifinals of the C-1 500 m and the C-1 1000 m events.

title: Emanuel Horvatiček


text:
Talk:Lake Forest Academy

Protection
I've protected this page for one week. No one seems to be working on actually adding content -- all the recent edits have been vandalism or reversions thereof -- and hopefully the vandals will lose interest once they find they can no longer change it. Kane5187 (talk) 19:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Bill Ayers
This is my full explanation of why these edits  are inappropriate:
 * This is an article about Lake Forest Academy, not about Bill Ayers. The list of alumni in this article serves only to increase the reader's understanding of LFA by briefly listing the people who attended here. We don't need a paragraph about all the specifics of Ayers' life and activities
 * The focus in these additions on Ayers' activities in the 1960s is unfair because it selectively emphasizes one part of his life. The lead in his article Bill Ayers can serve as an example in this regard: it mentions his activity in the Weatherman, but also his teaching and theorizing on an even-handed level.
 * Calling him a "terrorist" is a heavily loaded and very disputed term. Again, note that the lead in his article doesn't use that word. We don't have the space in this article to provide much context, so something less incendiary is more desirable. People can click his link if they want to find out more.

I'm fine with mentioning other things about Ayers if need be -- like bring up something to the effect of "controversial relationship with Barack Obama" (hopefully better-worded than that), but this description needs to be short and neutral. As it currently stands -- "former radical activist and current professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago" - it summarizes the two major reasons for his notability in a neutral and accurate way. Kane5187 (talk)

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title: Talk:Lake Forest Academy


text:
Members of the Western Australian Legislative Assembly, 2005–2008

This is a list of members of the Western Australian Legislative Assembly from 2005 to 2008:


text:
Kaisar Nurmaganbetov

Kaisar Nurmaganbetov (born August 5, 1977 in Zhezqazghan) is a Kazakhstani sprint canoer who has competed since 1995. At the 1996 Summer Olympics, he was eliminated in the semifinals of both the C-2 500 m and the C-2 1000 m events. Four years later, Nurmaganbetov again reached the semifinals, in the C-1 500 m and the C-1 1000 m events but that is where he was eliminated. He was eliminated in the semifinals of those same events at the 2004 Summer Olympics in Athens. For his most recent Summer Olympics in Beijing, Nurmaganbetov was eliminated in the semifinals of the C-2 500 m event.

title: Kaisar Nurmaganbetov


text:
Southern West Virginia Community and Technical College

Southern West Virginia Community and Technical College (Southern) is a public community college with its main campus in Mount Gay, West Virginia. It is part of the West Virginia Community and Technical College System.

History
The school was founded as the Logan and Williamson branches of Marshall College in 1960 and renamed as branches of Marshall University when their mother institution achieved university status in 1961. It had community college jurisdiction over Logan and Mingo counties. In both cases, the schools were housed in the buildings that had been surplussed by the desegregation of public education. The "branch college", as it was often called, sported basketball teams at each of its two campuses.

In 1970, the two branches were merged and became a stand-alone community college. The college's jurisdiction was expanded to include Boone County and Wyoming County. Classes in these counties were held in leased locations until 1971, when a permanent building was constructed in Williamson.

In the 1980s, the college was refocused and permanent buildings were built in each county.

Academics
Southern provides both associate degrees in 2-year fields (career/technical programs) and the first two years of a four-year degree in the anticipation of a transfer to a bachelor's level institution.

The service area of the school was expanded by 1995 legislation that divided West Virginia into eleven districts. Southern serves all of Boone, Lincoln, Logan, McDowell, Mingo, and Wyoming counties.

Approximately 1,100 students are enrolled. Less than half of them attend part-time.

The school has no residential programs and no athletics. It does have school colors, gold and black.

Locations
Campus locations are in Foster, Mount Gay, Williamson and Saulsville.


text:
Talk:Safety orange

What the hell is this sign and picture note? An attempt at humor, or what?!

 * The sign was used in a crash test shortly after the picture was taken. I think we can afford the technicians a bit of comedic license for the advisory plate. Rsduhamel 08:03, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Nonono. There's a decimal point there; it's just very small. --Ihope127 15:44, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Anyway, I'm moving this to the right page) :-) --Ihope127 15:44, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Safety orange color
Is it just me, or does the "safety orange" color have too much green in it? I'm not an expert on color matching and whatnot, but I've seen a few road signs in my time, and they've definitely got a little more red in them. (Also, the extremely convenient 99 in the hex triplet makes it look like someone just made that up.) Anyone with more expertise have an opinion? Equalpants 08:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

 * No, but there is a discrepancy with the hex triplets on the 'list of colours' page; I'll check it out. Also, it doesn't correlate with the "153" in the RGB box Leon... 05:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Oops...I realised it was International Orange. Sorry Leon... 05:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Is the color in the color box correct?
The color in the color box doesn't match the picture of the sign. Of course, that means nothing because the picture could be off. I copied the picture into MS Paint and used the color picker and got r=251, g=108, b=21 (average of eight points). Even so, the color box looks off to me where the sign looks right. So, is the color box determined by something official or is it someone's best guess? Here's the different colors for comparrison.

If I don't hear that the original is "official" I'm going to change it. Rsduhamel 01:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Update
I changed the color to match that used at the Schneider National website and it looks a lot closer than the original. I also went to this site and converted the Munsell notation to RGB but the result looks way too dark. I'll keep the Schneider color until I find a better, more "official" match. Rsduhamel 21:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Caltrans orange
Is this really the same orange as Caltrans? Caltrans wears orange, yes, but I tend to think of them as sort of a prisoner-jumpsuit orange, as opposed to the blaze orange worn by hunters. Some of their newer signs are blaze orange, but I don’t think that’s what’s being referred to.

Also, I’m looking at Omaha orange, and—though I know its RGB approximation is nothing to go by—it also seems to be a more muted shade of orange—more like a Caltrans orange, really. —Wiki Wikardo 20:39, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Hunter orange
I note that this term redirects here, and apparently always has, but is neither bolded nor discussed in the article. I was looking it up because I am not entirely sure it is the same color as is used on roadsigns. Also, I think something needs to be said about how extensive the requirement is for it to be worn (and whether that is an exclusively American thing). Anyone know enough to add some coverage? Too far outside my areas of expertise. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:59, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The True Color of safety orange
The color "safety orange" "hunter orange" etc is a redder color than the one on the info box. I've been working as a construction worker for 27 years, and now do web design for Carhartt. The web code that Carhartt uses is Red: 255 Green: 75 Blue: 0. The page for international orange is more on par with street cones, safety vests etc.SouthernResidentOrca (talk) 08:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

FF6700
Is the hex code E87600? I think it is FF6700. Malcolmmwa (talk) 19:01, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Pantone
Clearly related to several sections above - can we nail down the official Pantone number? An IP editor changed it from 152 to 021; I reverted on the strength of sources like this and this, but I also see a (blacklisted) site recommending 165, and as the article notes, the ANSI documentation does not actually specify a Pantone code. Is there an authoritative listing other than that that does? Yngvadottir (talk) 18:11, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

This page, as well as the page on international orange, seems to conflate several dissimilar colors
It seems to me that this page confuses many different types of orange under the caption "safety orange", but at the same time as if it were one single color. I suppose "safety orange" is a term useful for orange colors used in contexts where their conspicuosity is useful to enhance safety (be it by making objects clearly visible to avoid collision, or drawing attention to important informative signs etc.) HOWEVER, the luminescent colors used in some contexts ("hunter orange", typically an orange, red-orange, or red) are not the same thing as non-luminescent "counterparts". FS595 "international orange" FS12197 is not a fluorescent orange. The federal standard has for exampe 28915 and 38903 as luminescent red-oranges. I strongly suspect that the color meant here, when not referring to luminous versions, is simply FS.12197 international orange or (in European context) perhaps RAL 2004 "Reinorange" ("Pure orange"). --Lasse Hillerøe Petersen (talk) 18:09, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

CMYK Values
What are the CMYK values to achieve this color? 2603:3024:18B9:1000:8C99:A475:4303:BA6E (talk) 20:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Safety orange


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File:Henry Rinnan on trial.jpg

Henry Rinnan on trial

source: http://mediabase1.uib.no/krigslex/r/bilder/rinnan-henry.html

Licensing
Fair Use Rationale
 * 1) No free equivalent is currently available or could be created that would adequately give the same information.
 * 2) The material should not be used in a manner that would likely replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media.
 * 3) The image is of low resolution, which does not interfere with commercial distribution of higher-quality images.
 * 4) The image is used in illustrating the subject of Henry Rinnan.

title: File:Henry Rinnan on trial.jpg


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Poro

The Poro, or Purrah or Purroh, is a men's secret society in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Guinea, and the Ivory Coast, introduced by the Mane people (the Mande Elites leading large-scale migrations from the Mali Empire into the southern coastal areas). It is sometimes referred to as a hunting society and only males are admitted to its ranks. The female counterpart of the Poro society is the Sande society.

Structure

The Poro society was part of the culture introduced by Mane people, migrants to the region as early as 1000 AD.

Two affiliated and secret associations exist in Sierra Leone, the Yassi and the Bundu. The first is nominally reserved for females, but members of the Poro are admitted to certain ceremonies. All the female members of the Yassi must be also members of the Bundu, which is strictly reserved to women. In Liberia, the female equivalent of the Poro is the Sande society.

Of the three, the Poro is by far the most important. The entire native population is governed by its code of laws. It primarily represents a type of fraternal society to which even infants are temporarily admitted. The ceremony for them consists of carrying them into the Poro bush and out again.

There are also religious and civil aspects of the Poro. Under the former, boys join it at puberty in a rite of passage. Under its civil aspects, the society serves as a kind of native governing body, making laws, deciding on war and peace, etc.

Cultural context
In Culture and Customs of Liberia (2006) by Ayodeji Olukoju, the place of the Poro society in Liberian life is examined. "Liberian religious culture is characterised by a predisposition towards secrecy (encapsulated in the concept of ifa mo - "do not speak it") and an ingrained belief in the intervention of mysterious forces in human affairs". "Both elite and non-elite Liberians usually attribute events to the activities of secret powers and forces."

"Beliefs include the conviction that there are deep and hidden things about an individual that only diviners, priests, and other qualified persons can unravel. This presupposes that whatever exists or happens in the physical realm has foundations in the spirit world".

Social function

One of the social functions of secret societies like the Poro and Sande is to deter antisocial behavior or beliefs. Poro elders will determine cases of alleged witchcraft in the community.

Practices
The Poro society has its own special rituals, language, ancient Saharan script, tattooing, and symbols. Details are scarce, due to an oath of secrecy. However, versions and iterations of this have been made public e.g. Vai Script, Mende Script, and Kpelle syllabary. Those responsible for the public release of these scripts have claimed receipt of them through dreams when engaging with Europeans in the 19th and 20th century CE. This was done to conceal the origin of these scripts from European Colonisers.

Meetings
The Poro society usually meets in the dry season, between the months of October and May. The rendezvous is in the bush, at an enclosure, separated into apartments by mats and roofed only by the overhanging trees, serving as a club-house. There are three grades, the first for Chiefs and Rulers (Paramount chief), known as the "big men", the second for Priestss and the third for the crowd. The ceremonies of the Poro are presided over by the Poro devil, a man in fetish dress, who addresses the meeting through a long tube of wood.

The wearing of wooden masks in Poro society masquerades is a representation of the spirit world of benign and malevolent spirits. "'The ceremonies of the Purrah are presided over by the Poro devil, a man in fetish dress, who addresses the meeting through a long tube of wood, known as a bull-roarer (voice distorter which delivers a bloodcurdling stream of sounds, and is made from a tube with holes cut into it over which discs of membrane from the egg sacks of a particular spider are spread over).'" The Liberian Poro is little different when it comes to ceremonies.

If a ceremony has women, children and non-members taking part, the devil stays out. The Gbetoo is the only "fetish dressed up with long tube of wood" that can be seen. The poro devil is invisible even to most members.

Taboo

The Poro can place its taboo on anything or anybody. As no member would defy its order, much trouble has been caused where the taboo has been laid upon crops. In 1897 the British local government was compelled to pass a special ordinance forbidding the imposition of the taboo on all indigenous products.

Other activities
In 2009, rock-throwing Poro members protested the selection of Elizabeth Simbiwa Sogbo-Tortu as the first female chief of the Nimiyama Chiefdom in eastern Sierra Leone. They barred her from taking office.

Liberia
During his rule, Charles Taylor is reported to have coopted the Poro Society, which helped him project an aura of mystery and invincibility.

Additional reading

 * Tim Butcher. Chasing the Devil - The Search for Africa's Fighting Spirit. Chatto & Windus, 2010. ISBN 0701183608
 * P. Jan Vandenhoute. "Poro and Mask : A Few Comments on 'Masks as agents of social control in Northeast Liberia' by Dr. G.W. Harley." Working Papers in Ethnic Art, 4. State University of Ghent, 1989.

title: Poro


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John Jones Maesygarnedd

John Jones Maesygarnedd (c. 1597 – 17 October 1660) was a Welsh military leader and politician, known as one of the regicides of King Charles I following the English Civil War. A brother-in-law of Oliver Cromwell, Jones was a Parliamentarian and an avid republican at a time when most of Wales was Royalist, and became one of 57 commissioners that signed the death warrant authorising the execution of Charles I following his trial. After the Restoration of the monarchy, Jones was one of few excluded from the general amnesty in the Indemnity and Oblivion Act, and was tried, found guilty, then hanged, drawn and quartered at Charing Cross.

Biography
John Jones was born, in about 1597, the son of Thomas ab John or Jones, and Ellen, daughter of Robert Wynn ap Jevan esq. of Taltreuddyn, at Maes-y-Garnedd (or Maesygarnedd), Llanbedr in Merionethshire, Wales. Jones is often surnamed as Maesygarnedd, after the location of his residence in North Wales, and spoke Welsh with his family. During the English Civil War, Jones served in the Parliamentarian forces in Wales, and was described as a colonel in 1646 while negotiating the surrender of Anglesey in June 1646. In 1648, Jones helped to suppress Sir John Owen's rising, and was thanked by the House of Commons for his share in the reconquest of Anglesey, and was voted £2,000 on account of his arrears of pay. He was returned to the Long Parliament in about 1647 for Merionethshire.

Following the end of the war, Jones was selected as one of the judges of King Charles I, and attended the trial with great regularity. Jones was the forty-second signatory of the fifty-seven commissioners that signed the death warrant that effectively authorised the execution of the King. After execution, Jones was elected a member of the first two Councils of State of the Commonwealth of England In July 1650, Jones was voted one of the commissioners to assist the lord deputy in the government of Ireland, and was reappointed for two years longer on 24 August 1652. His colleague, Edmund Ludlow, described him as "discharging his trust with great diligence, ability, and integrity, in providing for the happiness of that country, and bringing to justice those who had been concerned in the murders of English Protestants".

Jones was a strong republican, and was greatly dissatisfied at Oliver Cromwell's assumption of the Protectorate. Henry Cromwell describes him as "endeavouring to render the government unacceptable", but "more cunning and close" in his opposition than Ludlow. He was accordingly set aside, and when in March 1656, there was a rumour that Jones was to be again employed in the Irish government, Henry Cromwell remonstrated with Thurloe against the choice, asserting that he was not only factious and disaffected, but "had acted very corruptly in his place". By this time a marriage had been arranged between Jones and Oliver Cromwell's sister, Catherine, widow of Roger Whitstone, "When I writ to you about Colonel Jones", explained Henry Cromwell. "I did not know that he was likely to be my uncle. Perhaps that may serve to oblige him to faithfulness to his highness and government".

In the First Protectorate Parliament (1656), Jones returned for the counties of Merionethshire and Denbighshire, choosing to sit for Merionethshire. In the Second Narrative of the late Parliament, Jones is described as originally "one of good principles for common justice and freedom ... lately married the Protector's sister, by which means he might have become a great man indeed, did not something stick which he cannot well get down. He is not thorough-paced for the court proceedings, nor is his conscience fully hardened against the good old cause". Jones was summoned to Oliver Cromwell's Other House in December 1657, but held no office except that of governor of the Isle of Anglesey. On 2 June 1657, Parliament voted giving Jones lands in Ireland to the value of £3,000, for arrears of pay amounting to that sum. He was still so far trusted by the republicans that on 7 May 1659, Jones was appointed one of the Committee of Safety, and on 14 May one of the Council of State. An act was passed making Jones and others commissioners for the government of Ireland on 7 July, and Jones landed in Ireland with Ludlow in July 1659. When Ludlow returned to England in October, he selected Jones to command the Irish forces during his absence. To Ludlow's disgust, Jones and most of the Irish officers supported John Lambert and the army in their quarrel with parliament. When Ludlow expostulated Jones made the excuse that he acted at the "incessant importunity of others", and begged Ludlow to return and ease him of the burden of his command. On 13 December 1659, however, Colonels John Bridges, Theophilus Jones, and other officers of George Monck's party seized Dublin Castle and arrested Jones. An impeachment of high treason against Jones and his colleagues (Ludlow, Corbet, and Thomlinson) was presented to Parliament on 19 January 1660. The main charge was that Jones had "openly and publicly owned that treacherous and traitorous act of part of the army in England in their unjust force put upon the parliament". Jones was summoned before the Council of State, but was released on an agreement not to disturb the existing government.

Restoration of the monarchy
In 1660, the Restoration of the monarchy under Charles II, the son of King Charles I, exposed Jones to certain ruin. As a politically active senior member of the republican party, who had married into Oliver Cromwell's family, was an opponent of Monck's party, and a signatory of Charles I's death warrant, Jones became a prime target of Charles II and his supporters seeking revenge. However, Jones seems to have been unaware of the danger he was in, making no attempt to flee, and was arrested on 2 June 1660, as he was quietly walking in Finsbury, and was committed to the Tower of London. On 4 June, the House of Commons excepted him from the Indemnity and Oblivion Act, and he was tried on 12 October the same year. Jones confessed that he had sat among the King's judges, made no attempt to plead any point of law, and was sentenced to death. On 17 October 1660, Jones was executed by being hanged, drawn and quartered together with Adrian Scrope, and reportedly died with great courage and dignity.

Family
Jones married twice. His first marriage was before 1639 to Margaret Edwards (died Ireland 19 November 1651) they had eight children but only one, a son, survived him. Margaret was a devoted follower of the Puritan preacher Morgan Llwyd.

In 1656 Jones married again. His second wife was Henrietta (erroneously called Catherine by Carlyle) Whitstone (baptised on 7 February 1597), the third sister of Oliver Cromwell, and the widow of Roger Whitstone, a Parliamentary army officer who had campaigned in the Low Countries, she had three sons and two daughters. Catherine received an annual settlement of £300 from the estate of her former husband to which Oliver Cromwell added an annuity of £150. She and Jones had no children. Her husband opposed Richard Cromwell when he was Protector, and Richard stopped her annuity. From a letter of Henrietta/Catherine's that was published in the 19th century, it seems that she had Royalist sympathies as she disapproved of the execution of Charles I.

After Jones's execution his son and heir was allowed to retain the lands Jones had held before 1646, but the rest either returned to the Crown (if they had been Crown lands before the Civil War) or were forfeited. His forfeited estates in Wales went to the Duke of York (the future James II of England), while those in Ireland went to Arthur Annesley, 1st Earl of Anglesey.

title: John Jones Maesygarnedd


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Peter Kuper

Peter Kuper (born September 22, 1958) is an American alternative comics artist and illustrator, best known for his autobiographical, political, and social observations.

Besides his contributions to the political anthology World War 3 Illustrated, which he co-founded in 1979 with Seth Tobocman, Kuper is best known for taking over Spy vs. Spy for Mad magazine, which he both wrote and drew from 1997 to 2022. Kuper has produced numerous graphic novels which have been translated into French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Swedish, Slovenian and Greek, including award-winning adaptations of Franz Kafka's Give It Up! and the Metamorphosis.

Early life
Peter Kuper was born in Summit, New Jersey, and moved to Cleveland, Ohio when he was six years old, where he graduated from Cleveland Heights High School in 1976. He lived in Israel with his parents in 1969–70.

In 1970 Kuper and his childhood friend Seth Tobocman published their first fanzine, Phanzine, and in 1971 they published G.A.S Lite, the official magazine of the Cleveland Graphic Arts Society. In 1972 Kuper traded R. Crumb some old jazz records for the right to publish some artwork from one of Crumb's sketchbooks in a comic titled Melotoons that lasted for two issues.

He attended Kent State University in 1976–1977, then moved to New York City in 1977, where he studied at Art Students League and the Pratt Institute (along with Seth Tobocman). For a short period he acted as studio assistant for cartoonist Howard Chaykin at Chaykin's shared studio space, Upstart Associates.

Comics
Kuper, Tobocman, and painter Christof Kohlhofer founded World War 3 Illustrated in 1979.

Kuper has travelled extensively through Latin America, Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, much of which he documented in his 1992 book, ComicsTrips: A Journal of Travels Through Africa and Southeast Asia.

Spy vs. Spy had passed through various hands after its creator Antonio Prohías retired, but Kuper's version has appeared without interruption since 1997, although the last new edition was published in 2022.

Kuper's Eye of the Beholder was the first comic strip to ever regularly appear in the New York Times, and his quasi-autobiography Stop Forgetting To Remember: The Autobiography of Walter Kurtz covers the birth of his daughter, 9/11, and other vicissitudes in his life from 1995 to 2005.

Though permanently based in New York City, Kuper wife and daughter resided in the Mexican state of Oaxaca 2006–2008, where he documented an ongoing teachers' strike and other aspects of Mexico in his sketchbook journal Diario de Oaxaca.

Kuper's work in comics and illustration frequently combines techniques from both disciplines and often takes the form of wordless comic strips. Kuper remarked on this, "I initially put comics on one side and my illustration in another compartment, but over the years I found that it was difficult to compartmentalize like that. The two have merged together so that they're really inseparable."

Kuper has taught comics and illustration courses at the Parsons School of Design, and The School of Visual Arts and Harvard University’s first class dedicated to graphic novels.

In April 2022, Kuper was reported among the more than three dozen comics creators who contributed to Operation USA's benefit anthology book, Comics for Ukraine: Sunflower Seeds, a project spearheaded by IDW Publishing Special Projects Editor Scott Dunbier, whose profits would be donated to relief efforts for Ukrainian refugees resulting from the February 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Kuper contributed political cartoons to the anthology.

Illustration
As an illustrator, Kuper has produced covers for Time, Newsweek, Businessweek and The Progressive. He has done hundreds of illustrations for newspapers including The New York Times and for magazines such as Rolling Stone, Entertainment Weekly, and The New Yorker. Kuper has been co-art director of the political illustration group INX International Ink Company since 1988.

Awards
Kuper won a journalism award from The Society of Newspaper Designers in 2001. His wordless picture story Sticks and Stones was awarded the 2004 gold medal, and his comic "This Is Not A Comic" won a silver medal in 2009 both from the Society of Illustrators. He won another gold medal in the sequential arts category from the Society of Illustrators in 2010. His book Sticks and Stones, The System, Diario de Oaxaca, Ruins won the 2016 Eisner Award and adaptations of many of Franz Kafka’s works into comics including The Metamorphosis and Kafkaesque won the 2018 NCS award.

Interviews

 * Mr. Media
 * Around Noon radio interview
 * Mundo Fantasma

title: Peter Kuper


text: User talk:65.95.42.187

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Talk:Elisabeth Loftus

Notable?
Sigh, another anonymously submitted stub. Is this person notable? According to Google she has been involved in false memory research or something of the sort. -- Cleduc 02:56, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Elisabeth Loftus


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John Moore (regicide)

Colonel John Moore (1599–1650) was one of the regicides of King Charles I.

John Moore was born into one of the oldest noble Moore families in England in 1599. By the early 1640s, John Moore (who was by now a Member of Parliament for Liverpool) was heavily involved with the early shipping trade, forging connections in Barbados. When English Civil War broke out in England in 1642, Moore pledged his allegiance to the Roundhead Parliamentarians as did most of Liverpool's burgesses, who were largely of Puritan stock. The nobles and gentry formed the bulk of the Cavaliers (who had control of both Liverpool Castle and tower), including the mayor, John Walker. The Castle and the township was handed over to Lord Derby for the Royalists.

In May 1643, however, John Moore and his Parliamentarian men set about routing the castle, which they succeeded, suffering only 7 dead to the Royalists' 80 dead and 300 prisoners. The Lancashire Royalist faction collapsed soon after. After the castle had been taken, John Moore assumed control of both it and the area that it encompassed, taking the title of Governor of Liverpool for himself. Cromwell rewarded him with the rank of Colonel in his Parliamentarian army and also made him Parliament's vice-admiral of Cheshire and Lancashire.

Moore's victory was not to be long lived however, and Liverpool was routed from underneath him on 13 June 1644 when the Royalist Prince Rupert of the Rhine and his army of 10,000 forced an entry into the city around the area of Old Hall Street. The Parliamentarians put up a strong defence, and they took the lives of some 1,500 Royalists. By the time that Prince Rupert reached the City itself, John Moore and the remaining Parliamentary troops had already left the city via the Pool.

When Sir John Meldrum's Parliamentary forces recaptured the city six months later, John Moore found himself back in charge as governor.

Moore was a supporter of Pride's Purge and, as well as helping to organise security arrangements at King Charles's trial. He was a signatory of the King's death warrant in 1649.

In 1649, Moore fought in Ireland against James Butler, 1st Duke of Ormonde and became governor of Dublin. He died of a fever there in 1650.

title: John Moore (regicide)


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seaton Rothman

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. Carrp | Talk 20:19, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Seaton Rothman
Non-notable -- 0 google hits Jok2000 02:59, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete Jok2000 03:04, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, the way it is written it's either a badly worded vanity piece or a sarcastic attempt at a personal attack. Megan1967 04:29, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. No Google hits, and the 1 Yahoo! hit was for someone else. Vanity. DaveTheRed 00:59, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


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Talk:BBC Proms

Untitled
"In 1927, the BBC -- based at Broadcasting House opposite the hall --"
 * Added "later" to the above sentence because Broadcasting House wasn't even built until 1932. Before that the BBC was based at Savoy Hill close to the Savoy Hotel.

Although there is decreasing opposition to "comprised of" (see http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=comprise), there are still some who react to it as simply incorrect. Here I propose a compromise between "be comprised of" and "be composed of"... I think "consist of" is more natural anyway. David Brooks 20:42, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The page currently has a link to Robert Newman, manager of Queen's Hall, and founder of the Proms. However, it points to a contemporary comedian of the same name. Does anyone know anything about the appropriate Robert Newman, or should the link be removed? I'm not sure he's a notable figure, apart from his role in relation to the Proms. Ian Rutt 10:07, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would say that what he has done for music through the Proms makes him a notable figure. He deserves a short article at least. Hikitsurisan ........which I have now done. Hikitsurisan 10:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Prom 66, Sunday 3 September
I don't think was the first time that a Prom was cancelled on the day. In the early or mid 90s there was one season where there was a string of problems with the electrical substation supplying the hall. At least one concert was cancelled, including the premiere of a new work by Tan Dun, and it was a sufficiently late cancellation that one critic didn't manage to get his "review" of the concert pulled from the following day's paper... I need to check dates though. David Underdown 10:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

 * My recollection is that the first half of the relevant concert was played and the lights failed while the performers were getting in position fo the Tan Dun. The lights also failed for the COE just before the encore. Their next visit they did the encore they had planned to do before. --Peter cohen 13:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The last night following 9/11
The comment about Leonard Slatkin's last night following 9/11 as a performance of "unprecedented political correctness and limp-wristed anti-patriotism" is uncalled for. Can this not be rephrased in a less judgmental way?

Last Night Conductors
Thanks Stevouk for those additions. --Ross UK 21:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Louis Jullien
Unless someone can convince me otherwise here, I will continue to remove references to the book/website on Louis Jullien as being irrelevant to this article (and probably spam). he has no direct connection to the series of concerts this article refers to, the earlier and more general usage of the term [[promenade concert is linked to, and that seems to me to be the appropriate place (if any) for the link to be added.  David Underdown 09:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, you should have a look on the BBC website, there is clearly a link between the Proms today and this man. Jullien just gave the idea of the fantasy at the promenade concerts. form BBC website's article of Henry Wood. "And the most remarkable throwback to earlier times – indeed to the pre-Prom era of the Monster Concerts of the showman-conductor Louis Jullien – is the almost ever-present Fantasia on British Sea-Songs by the Proms' founder-conductor Henry Wood." Tell me what you think about. 90.9.158.246 (talk) 22:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * One piece in one concert of the whole season doesn't seem like a a major link. Jullien is mentioned in the article promenade concerts, which is linked from this one, which talks about the wider history of "proms" in general.  David Underdown (talk) 09:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"Prommers with tickets ..."
Shouldn't there be reference here to the fact that some Prommers without tickets also turn up to queue early (sometimes overnight) in the hope of being able to purchase a Last Night ticket on the door, and some of them do get in? Philip Trueman 13:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Last Night 2001
If we're going to mention the heavily revised programme then it should be said that the US national anthem was also sung (and, for the real trivia nuts, sung before the National Anthem, because the US Ambassador was present). Philip Trueman 13:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Take look at the anons edits before I trimmed down that section, seemed to imply that God Save the Queen wasn't sung at all. Was going to leave the rest until I have chance to look over the programme to remind myself exactly what did end up in the concert that year.  The anon changes also seemed to be blaming all the changes on Slatkin, when of course it's Kenyon who ultimately carries the can.  David Underdown 14:16, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I didn't catch that year's performance, so I have no idea what happened (nor do I frankly care), but I just thought I'd chip in with a trivia nugget fot you. The US anthem would have been played before the UK anthem, because the UK anthem must be played last (one of those diplomatic protocol things, like the order of flags). Its playing signals the end of the performance - impromptu audince renditions of Auld Lang Syne aside - and nothing else may (should) follow it. The presence of the US Ambassador would have no effect on the point at which the US anthem was played, other than it being played at all in the first place, perhaps (was it played out of solidarity, or simply because s/he was there? I don't know). Petecollier 22:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Sorry, Pete, but you're wrong. You are confusing the playing of the National Anthem at the end of the concert season (where it is the last programmed work, as you say), with its being played for other reasons.  When Her Majesty attends a Prom, the National Anthem is played when she first makes her appearance, not at the end.  As I recall, at the Last Night in 2001 the concert started with both anthems, as a mark of solidarity, the US one first because the Ambassador was present and Her Majesty wasn't.  It was too late to change the printed programme but song sheets were handed out beforehand - I still have mine, somewhere. The National Anthem was played again at the end.  Philip Trueman 14:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is quite correct. The two anthems were played at the very start of the concert, with audience participation. The words to the American National Anthem were inserted into the programme on a slip of paper, so that members of the audience could join in.86.181.55.66 (talk) 21:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Location coordinates
This is getting silly.

The Proms are not a location-specific series of events, and The Proms is not a location-specific article. Royal Albert Hall and Cadogan Hall yes, but not The Proms. If The Proms links to those, as it should, it does not need coordinates of its own. If the Proms are later held at other locations or in other cities they can be linked to as necessary. Federal government of the United States does not need the location coordinates of Washington D.C., Sex and the City does not need the location coordinates of New York, and Philadelphia cheese steak does not need the location coordinates of Philadelphia. Why should they? Philip Trueman 12:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I quite agree, though since we seem to be stuck with it at the moment, I've at leat tried to come up with some coords which put the right bit of London in the centre of the map - accidentally they seem to be pretty much right for Cadogan Hall. Quite how "locating" them fits in with the Proms in the Park in Swansea, Manchester, Glasgow Belfst Liverpool etc. I'm not sure...  David Underdown 12:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

 * "The Proms [...] held annually in Central London" - if it walks like a duck, and quacks... Andy Mabbett 13:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

 * You have not thought through your own argument. It is not in the essence of ducks to remain stationary in one place.  It is in the essence of buildings and bridges and cities and railway stations to remain stationary and therefore to have a definite, permanent location, but it is not in the essence of governments or ducks or people or concert series to remain stationary and so to have a definite, permanent location. Even if they happen for a while to be fairly constant in their position it is not in their essence to remain so.  Philip Trueman 13:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Fortunately it is easy to update Wikipedia, so when the Proms relocate to Birmingham, the coordinates can be updated accordingly. Andy Mabbett 20:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

 * You still haven't convinced us that the Proms have a location. The places in which they are held yes, there are locations, and can be fixed down with co-ordinates.  There is no consensus for adding the (meaningless) information to this article.  Whilst the majority of the events connected with The Proms are in "central London" not  everything is, so putting on co-ordintes is misleading.  From the thread on WP:AN it seems that you are the only one arguing for this.  The things that can be located are the Royal Albert Hall, South Kensington, Cadogan Hall, Sloane Square.  No one place can be accurately said to be "the" location of the Proms, not even central London.  Perhaps it because both Philip and I are IT types, but we see location as being an attribute of the places where concerts are held, not of the abstraction that is the festival as a whole.  David Underdown 11:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I've pointed out that the article says that they have a location, I don't know what else I can do to convince you. Or are you saying that the article is wrong? And I'm an "IT type", too, FWIW. Shall we wave our qualifications at each other? Andy Mabbett 11:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

 * The concerts that form the series take place in halls which have a location, the series itself does not. I have re-worded the article slightly anyway.  David Underdown 11:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Andy, by the argument that The Proms (in addition to the locations they take place in) should be tagged with coordinates, you should be adding coordinates to all sorts of things. Try John Wayne: interred in the Pacific View Memorial Park cemetery in Corona del Mar (he's there all the time, not once a year); Hackney carriage (problematic, because the title say Hackney, but they can be found all over London), Orangutan: found only in rainforests on the islands of Borneo and Sumatra, George W. Bush (he occasionally makes trips abroad but we can always update his coordinates when he moves). Sorry, if this is verging on WP:POINT, but insisting on tagging something with coordinates just because it mentions a location in the article seems odd, to say the least.  Yomangani talk 13:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Having thought about this further over Easter it seems to me that the problem with just saying, "The Proms happen in London, so just put some coordinates 'for London' in", is the lack of context. If a future reader of the article comes along and thinks, "hmm just where is London?", follows the link to London and clicks on the coordinates in that article, it doesn't take much to realise that the coordinates given for a large city (and the scale of the map one is directed too) have been chosen to give an overview of London, rather than indicating that some essence of London is contained in the precise coordinates given.  Howeer, if we put those same coordinates on this article, the reader is lacking that context, and might not unreasonably expect that the coordinates given bear some specific relevance to The Proms, which they don't.  In the extreme case, they programme that into their GPS, find the location, and there's nothing there which has anything to do with The Proms.  Even if we chose the coords of the Albert Hall say, for the majority of the year if you were to go there, there is nothing immediately apparent to show that that is where the majority of the concerts take place (in Season, the banners on the hall, and queues of people waiting to go in might just be a bit of a giveaway that you've found the right place - for a given concert - I suppose).  David Underdown 14:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, yes, but you don't address the general case. If you are only concerned about the well-being of The Proms then fine.  I am concerned about the well-being of all mainspace articles - hence my (so far, failed) attempt to get a debate going among the WP:GEO community at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates.  As I see it, what is needed is a clear policy that only articles that are about places should have coordinates.  Articles that are about matters that are merely associated with places should refer to the articles about those places, as The Proms refers to London and Royal Albert Hall, and those articles should have coordinates.  Once there is a sensible policy, it can be implemented, and those who go adding coordinates or  tags to articles such as The Proms or Crown Jewels of the United Kingdom can be reverted and pointed towards the policy. Philip Trueman 17:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Article name
The article name was changed over the weekend from "The Proms", to "BBC Proms" without discussion. Personally I think it would have been better left where it was as the "BBC" part is a relatively recent innovation, probably even within the last 20 years (I can check the dates once I get home again), and common usage (a major determiner for Wikipedia naming) is probably still as likely to be simply "The Proms" as "BBC Proms". The issue of "Prom" having other meanings isn't too important since there's already a link to the relevant disambiguation page at the top of the article. David Underdown 12:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it is no better, and no worse. I don't think either title is correct for the substantive article, which should perhaps more properly be The BBC Henry Wood Promenade Concerts, with redirects from The Proms, BBC Proms etc.  (I don't see that 'common usage' should be a determinant of the name of the substantive article if an official title exists - see e.g. Princess Diana).  But whichever way the decision finally goes it would be better to have a discussion and reach a consensus first. Philip Trueman 15:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But which official title, the current one, any of the previous ones, and as I say many people disregard that anyway. See WP:COMMONNAME for my original thinking.  I've added a couple more redirects as a result of your previous post by the way. David Underdown 15:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've now had chance to check sources. Branding as the BBC Proms began as late as 1993 (having been staunchly resisted by certain previous Controllers).  Even, "presented by the BBC" was added to "Henry Wood Promenade Concerts" only in 1980.  David Underdown 17:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It further occurs to me that the three books I'm planning to use as main sources for a major rewrite of this article (once the current season is over...) are entitled, The story of the Proms, The Proms and The Proms: a new history (the last one being published only this year to mark 80 years since the BBC first supported the Proms. David Underdown 17:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been finding more and more redirects which weren't fixed when the original move was done. Quickest way to sort this out is to move it back, and tidy up the relatively few which point to BBC Proms and point them back to The Proms  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by David Underdown (talk • contribs).

Interesting choice of vocabulary
This is not my article, so I don't want to get embroiled in editing it, but does

Throughout the Last Night performance, many audience members bob up and down in time with the rhythm of the piece being played, despite this making them look like arseholes.

really quite hit the mark, stylistically, that could be expected in an encyclopaedia; even this one? Perhaps an alternative word to 'arsehole' might lift the tone somewhat. Perhaps "comical," "foolish," or "ridiculous" would be a better choice here?

Petecollier 22:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The Last Nights Fantasia
Is it worthy of inclusion that this years Proms will not see Woods Fantasia on British Sea Songs, but rather Vaughan Williams's Sea Songs? See source: BBC Press Release section: The Last Night 84.71.123.26 (talk) 12:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Comparison to the Globe
I'm not sure this really adds anything - they are 2 separate traditions, at least I don't believe there's any clear link back through the preivous promenade concerts to the Elizabethan theatre, now revived at the Globe. David Underdown (talk) 13:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Thanks for raising this here. Two separate traditions, yes, but both experiences are open to culture vultures in London now. I added it only to show that standing in the central part of an entertainment space while others sit is not unique to the Proms, but exists in a context. Some readers who come to the article will have heard of the theatrical tradition of groundlings and it gives them a point of reference. NOr is standing a rock concert thing -- both Proms and the Globe are supposedly serious entertainment, but often with a playful edge. I'm not that bothered if you want to remove it. BrainyBabe (talk) 14:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I think what really gives the comaprison undue prominence is its inclusion in the lead, on second thoughts, it probably is valid to draw the parallel, but perhaps it should be in the body of the article? David Underdown (talk) 14:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

 * That seems fair. Please insert it whereever you think best. BrainyBabe (talk) 14:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Last Night of the Proms conductors table
I saw your reworking of the table for the conductors of the Last Night. I would respectfully disagree with your format, as I think that chronology year-by-year is the most important aspect for keeping the conductors straight. The analogy that I'm thinking of is putting a list of Prime Ministers or Presidents in alphabetical order by last name, rather than by order of service in the office, i.e. I prefer the temporal arrangement of those as well. However, I've made no changes to the table. The original column format did run a little long, but had I chosen to revise it, I would have perhaps "split it into two", i.e. made that 3-column format a 6-column format. Thanks for your time, DJRafe (talk) 20:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * moved from User talk:Sladen

 * I partially agree. My first couple of experimental edits left the table in its original chronological ordering .  Whilst I left a note that I was experimenting, but I did not succeed in taming/pairing down the table—at least not to my own satisfaction.  Having narrowed the table reasonably (using footnotes), I next considered a multi-column list (as you suggest above), although I didn't save that attempt (it would certainly be useful to re-experiment for comparison).  There is fair amount of redundancy in the data-set; like a List of Presidents, several of the conductors have "served" for long ranges of years (Wood, Sargent)—however, unlike a presidents' list, there are frequent runs of alternating years (Loughran, Del Mar, Groves in the 1970s/1980s).  Compressing multiple years into a single range (1949–1966) span solves the case for a single continuous reign, but cannot solve the presentation when "tag-teaming".
 * Investigating how to remove or reformat the alternating duplicate entries is what lead me to try indexing by name. I also considered (by did not try) adding a column with the total number of performances and/or allowing the table to be sorted by that metric.  I don't think I was completely satisfied with the result—I would encourage you to continue experimenting and see if you can find a representation that remains small and presents the information in another form (multiple columns, or by decade).  —Sladen (talk) 01:10, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Sea Songs?
Where have the Sea Songs gone?

Seams a certain lobby has agreed to no more play the Sea Songs during the Last Night...

Britain - where have you gone...

Sea Song lovers - unfortunately - have to go back in time to enjoy...

e.g. -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufuW3-f_Vp0

(Angry) greetings,

-Wolli- --195.4.195.159 (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Disclaimer: What a shame, that I - as a German - have to complain about that - where are the British voices?

-Wolli- --195.4.195.159 (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

 * In recent years they'd been so altered, they were hardly worth having anywya. Rememebr this page is supposed to be for discussing the article, not a forum for discussion of the Proms themselves, for that you need to go to the BBC boards http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio3/F7497567 Roger Wright aslo addressed this to some extent at http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2009/abouttheproms/questions.shtml  David Underdown (talk) 08:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Charity Collection
As one of the trustees of Promenaders' Musical charities, I don't feel it's appropriate for me to add this tothe article myself, but we are now using www.facebook.com/promenaders.musical.charities to provide regualr updates on the collection total, and further information on this year's selected charities. If any watchers feel taht adding more info is justified, these links  may also be useful. 12:45, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

"Fancy dress" vs. "formal" dress
Not a Prommer myself, I don't actually know if fancy dress is a typical part of the Proms. The sentence that mentions it doesn't give that impression - when it says "Fancy dress is an optional extra: from dinner jackets to patriotic T-shirts," I understand it to mean "Some people dress formally - ie. in dinner jackets - but some do not - ie. patriotic T-shirts." Neither a dinner jacket nor a patriotic T-shirt is fancy dress, but "formal dress is an optional extra" encompasses both the optional dinner jacket and the patriotic T-shirt. Could someone with outside knowledge clear this up? Roscelese (talk) 23:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

 * To be honest (now half way through my fouteenth season as a prommer) fancy dress captures the variations better, I think it may be a variation between British and American usage, but formal dress can be considered fancy dress in some contexts.  Some people dress up whether that be in dinner suit, tails, cocktail/ball dress, others go for "patriotic" dress, tehre's a Union Flag tail suit that's made a couple of appearances.  Others where fairly normal clothes, but with a silly hat and so on.  If you're on Facebook, take a look at the photos in the group "I stand in the Arena at the Proms, but I'm quite nice really", that will give you a better idea of what we're talking about. David Underdown (talk) 09:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Fair enough, I'll change it back. Roscelese (talk) 16:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

This article had to be updated
The section "The Proms Today" only went as far as the 2010 session. Since, in July 2011, the Proms have began, we need to put in information about the 2011 session (I am all in favour of Wikipedia being up-to-date). Please feel free to restructure what I have typed if you do not like its placing. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:05, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Wallace and Gromit proms
It could also be updated if it mentioned the Wallace and Gromit proms, which took place in August 2012. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 15:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Last Night to be conducted by a woman
It does not appear that this article mentions that in 2013, for the first time ever, the Last Night at the Proms will be conducted by a woman - this article really should be updated to mention this fact. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 13:47, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Availibility of standing tickets for the Last Night of the Proms
From the 2013 Season, half-season standing tickets are no longer available, therefore I have deleted the sentence that was included which said that half-season ticket holders were eligible to apply for a Last Night standing ticket from a special allocation.86.181.55.66 (talk) 21:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

2012 and 2013 seasons
I would encourage someone closer to this subject than I am to add sections on the most recent two seasons. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:09, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Bělohlávek Biased Quote
Bělohlávek not only conducted these concerts for many years and was named the twelfth chief conductor but he also was honored with the title of Conductor Laureate and given an honorary CBE. So it is not surprising that he would laude these musical events. Some might call it self serving for him to say "In the context of classical music festivals" [the Proms are] "the world's largest and most democratic musical festival". Do Wikipedia's standards accept quotes from biased sources? I am asking in all seriousness because I don't know if it is a generally accepted standard for encyclopedias as this is not my area of expertise.

The source for my comment on his bias is the Wikipedia article on Bělohlávek a portrion of which follows: From 1995 to 2000, Bělohlávek was principal guest conductor of the BBC Symphony Orchestra (BBC SO). In February 2005, he was named its twelfth chief conductor, effective July 2006, with an initial contract of 3 years.[10][11] Bělohlávek is the first past BBC SO principal guest conductor to be named chief conductor of the BBC SO.[12] His tenure with the BBC SO began with the First Night of the 2006 Proms.[13] He first conducted the Last Night of the Proms in 2007,[14] the first conductor of the Last Night who is not a native English speaker.[12] In September 2007, Bělohlávek extended his contract with the BBC Symphony to 2012.[15][16] He made a guest appearance at the 2009 Last Night as one of the vacuum cleaner performers in Malcolm Arnold's A Grand, Grand Overture.[17] Bělohlávek conducted the Last Night of the Proms again in 2010[18] and in 2012.[19] He concluded his BBC SO chief conductorship in 2012 and now has the title of conductor laureate with the BBC SO.[20] In April 2012, Bělohlávek was awarded an honorary CBE "for services to music". Tomandzeke (talk) 20:50, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

 * JB's quote about The Proms was genuine, as he expressed in 2005 before he was ever booked for the Last Night, per this 2005 article which quotes him: "I admire the festival as the largest but most democratic music festival I know."  Besides, the text in the wikipedia article clearly states that the quote is his own, and makes no pretense at being a general 'statement of fact'.  DJRafe (talk) 22:14, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Proms Seasons section, general question
I have a question that might be heretical regarding the 'Proms Seasons' section in the article. Given that many recent seasons have featured 'themes', but that the coverage of past seasons as well as more recent seasons has not been comprehensive, might it not be kinder to the length of the article to remove the 'Proms Seasons' section completely? I make this suggestion because it might be easier to keep the article as a broader history of The Proms as an institution, without delving into the minutiae of each individual season for themes and commemorations (wonderful as they can be). Trying to be fair to each season each year on out would make this article even longer and more unwieldly than I think that it needs to be. Obviously I've not taken any action to delete that section, but I wanted to ask opinions to gauge sentiment on the idea. Cheers, DJRafe (talk) 22:14, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

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Requested move 17 April 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There's no consensus to move the page at this time. (non-admin closure) – Ammarpad (talk) 14:18, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

The Proms → Proms – Does not satisfy WP:NCTHE; "the" is commonly lowercased before "Proms" and doesn't form part of the official name —  RAVEN PVFF  · talk · 12:59, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 22:23, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose as "proms" is also the plural of prom, as in the high school formal, and therefore not an unambiguous title. Send this one for discussion. oknazevad (talk) 14:10, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:NCTHE states that we should only include the definite article if it is consistently capitalised in conjunction with "Proms", but this is not the case here. In addition, Proms already redirects to this article, so this move won't damage any existing links; any confusion can be clarified using a hatnote. This is in line with standard Wikipedia guidance at WP:SMALLDETAILS; "Prom" and "Proms" are already sufficiently differentiated by spelling. —  RAVEN PVFF  · talk · 03:56, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That is not in line with SMALLDETAILS since the dance comes in the plural form, similar to Car/Cars, it has to be shown that this is primary for the plural form. There are some cases like Orange/Oranges where the plural disambiguates from the singular (since the colour isn't usually in the plural).  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 04:47, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I would rather it was renamed to BBC Proms, as this is what they have been known as since 1926. Cardiffbear88 (talk) 22:36, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't principally object to "BBC Proms", although "Proms" would certainly fulfil WP:CONCISE and WP:COMMONNAME better; the "BBC" is typically omitted in most situations. See my reply above. —  RAVEN PVFF  · talk · 03:56, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose, as it does fulfil the requirement of being a commonly used name, to distinguish from other uses of the word proms. As alternative disambiguation BBC Proms may have merit, but with the weakness that the BBC is frequently omitted when talking or writing about them. MapReader (talk) 04:00, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. "The (BBC) Proms" is a particular series of events, "Proms" is not. Per WP:THE #1, the . The Last Night of the Proms is not the Last Night of the BBC Proms nor the Last Night of Proms nor the Last Night of BBC Proms, for example. Whether "Proms" should redirect to "The Proms" is a separate issue. 94.21.10.54 (talk) 05:16, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. I actually caused the move request, because I was asked to link the Proms, which simply looks wrong to me. 94, just above: it's Last Night of the Proms, correct, and not Last Night of The Proms, which it should be if The is part of the article name. MapReader, I don't see "The Proms" commonly used, but "the Proms". I see no need to add BBC, - that really is not commonly used. Proms and Prom are sufficiently different. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:17, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * adding: even if we think Proms is not the primary topic (but I do): we should not invent a disambiguation that the organizers don't use, and then create wrong links to it. If you care to look at this video you see that they use a logo with a small "BBC" and a large "Proms" but no The. I'd conclude that we should use no The. Proms (event) or whatever, but no The which suggests that is a solid part of their name as in The New York Times. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Determine the primary topic of Proms first by filing an WP:RFD. If Proms is retargeted to Prom or turned into a disambiguation page, then the current title can remain per WP:NDIS. However, if the Proms is determined to be the primary topic of "Proms", then technically WP:THE calls for it to be at "Proms", as it is not a group, sport team, or company. However, one could argue that organized events are kind of in the same vein and should be added to the list of exceptions which can take "The" in the title despite not being capitalized in running prose. -- King of ♥   ♦   ♣  ♠ 07:47, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose Proms should redirect to Prom (disambiguation) per WP:PLURALPT as the dance gets more views[|The_Proms]. The general dance meaning is also likely primary by PT#2 especially since the concert looks likely to have been named after the dance. Yes its been a stable primary topic but we can correct this instead of moving.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:32, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Even if the dance gets more clicks, who tells us if readers typing "Proms" in a search function want to arrive at the dance. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Commissioned composers
I've added the list of composers commissioned for this year's Proms season. It would add value to the article if similar lists could be added for previous years, if a source could be found. Ultimately, this will be a far more important part of the legacy of the Proms than the trivial details of when the seasons started and finished and who conducted the Last Night, which presently seem to get too much emphasis in the article. Cheers to anyone reading this! A virtual prommer: 188.30.194.64 (talk) 23:19, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 16 March 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to BBC Proms - uncontested Mike Cline (talk) 12:09, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

The Proms → BBC Proms – We almost universally and officially called the summer classical music concert as "BBC Proms" rather than "Proms" or "The Proms" as two latter are most likely refer to any music or dance gathering parties, such as school prom, dance prom, etc. I have an evidence about it such as their social media account, I Newspaper, Classical Music, and many more, and also evident by its current logo (which will most likely change in 2022 due to BBC Reith rebrand). 125.167.56.250 (talk) 05:42, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:PRECISE. The current title is potentially ambiguous. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:34, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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