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User talk:Hbdragon88/Archive 1

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Welcome, newcomer!

Here are some useful tips to ease you into the Wikipedia experience:

 * First, take a look at the Wikipedia Tutorial, and perhaps dabble a bit in the test area.
 * When you have some free time, take a look at the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines. They can come in very handy!
 * Remember to use a neutral point of view!
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 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Also, here are some odds and ends that I find useful from time to time:

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Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can most easily reach me by posting on my talk page.

ClockworkSoul 06:12, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fame and fortune!
What an excellently titled show! Maybe I should ask if I can have a part — they could use a Wikipedian, I'm sure! I haven't see the show, no, though judging from the website it sounds good. Being on the other side of the Atlantic, it'd be a bit of a trip. I did visit Las Vegas (and of course The Strip) three summers ago. In fact, at a good guess, I would say that it must be almost three years to the day! I enjoyed it. I can't remember if we went in The Riviera or not. Hmmmm. Being associated with a LV show is much more attractive than the alternative. One upset new editor (I had voted to delete an article on their forum) enquired why I would be "named after a sucky Tom Hanks movie"; at which point I discovered Splash. Can't win 'em all, I guess! -Splash 05:10, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Save system criticized
I don't think one GameFAQs topic is enough to make it a verifiable major POV. Andre ( talk ) 23:35, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks!
Thanks for the support on my RfA. I was very pleasantly surprised to see so much support throughout the week. Please do keep an eye on me and my logs, especially while I'm learning the ropes with the new buttons. Thanks again! -Splash 23:52, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

re: Blank and redirect?
Hmmm... It probably should be deleted. That was one of the first pages I created at Wikipedia, not knowing at the time to see if it was covered elsewhere. Feel free to merge and redirect if you think you should, seems like a good idea. Y0u (Y0ur talk page) (Y0ur contributions) 00:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Although I could technically delete it myself, I won't since I'm not sure I should (a process issue, not an issue of if it should be) and if in doubt, I won't. I would suggest just replacing the article with a redirect yourself. Y0u (Y0ur talk page) (Y0ur contributions) 15:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Los Angeles Metro Revert
"You reverted too far"

I reverted to the point where the article was canabolized. Any discussion of the Los Angeles Metropolitan Transportation Authority which excludes the history of Metro Rail is wholely incomplete. In fact it is critical to its twelve year history and to the understanding of what the authority does. The information which you deleted is only partially repeated in other articles. Even if it were repeated it is appropriate that the information be compiled in one article.

I concur more bus history is in order. However, I don't have that knowledge. I'll see what I can dig up. You might want to do the same.

Lastly, I'll go through today and piece in information which was added, post revert.

--SAUNDERS 18:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

More on Los Angeles Metro
HB,

Below is what I put on the talk page for the Los Angeles Metro. I hope that we can work to make this article a better one. ___

This article is about the authority not the history of indivisual lines. For History of individual lines one can refer to those independent articles.

It is not necessarily to devide the history of MTA up into further categories. This only makes the readability of the article more difficult as the flow is heavily disrupted. For example the history as it now starts in 2004, eleven years after the foundation of the twelve year old authority then it jumps back to 1990, then forward to 2000, then back again to 1993, 1994, 1999 and then once again back to 1994.... It's very difficult to get a quick understanding of  how the  order these the lines came into operation.

The division also makes the article lopsided as the bus history is obviously less developed then rail.

Beyond the structure the article now several run on sentences and misspellings.

I am hesitant to revert back to the Nov. 12 edit because I have already once reverted HBdragon's edits when he deleted swaths of information several weeks ago. It is my hope that someone else will revert or hbdragon himself will consider my comments and revert the article him or herself

Thanks

--SAUNDERS 18:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Lueshi
I 100% agree that it is fancruft. But I am not here to judge how deep it was propagated. I merely noted that the procedure was improperly followed. The first VfD ony 3 persons took part. Anon's vote is not counted. Two persons cannot decide the fate of article. Consequently, the speedy opinion in the secod vote is invalid as well. I should have written this in the article. talk. Copying there...mikka (t) 02:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

LACMTA
Thank you for asking my opinion.

I think that User:SAUNDERS' organization of the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority is the better version between the two of them. However, I suggest changing the organization of that version slightly by adding some timeline markers as subsections (every 5 years?) so that it isn't such a massive block of strait text. (There's also a little tweaking and copy-editing that I think needs to be done in the history section. The second paragraph on alternative fuel buses should be moved down to the bus section, with a brief summary mentioned in the article's intro. The first paragraph on the founding of the agency in 1993 should be integrated into the rest of the timeline in the proper place, and the opening paragraph should be just a mention of the two agencies that were the precursors to LACMTA. The founding date should also be mentioned in the intro.)

In my opinion, your version of dividing the history into sections for each service essentially makes the LACMTA article a repeat of the individual articles on each of the LACTMA services. Remember that the article should be an overview of LACMTA. Any details about the Metro Rail and Metro Bus should be in those articles and not the LACMTA article. What putting all of the history together does is that it allows the reader to understand the history of LACTMA as a whole, and allows them to understand how each action relates to the rest of LACMTA. It allows the reader to see what was going on at the same time, and to see what came before and what came after. That gives them a good context for understanding LACMTA's actions. For example, the Bus Riders Union agreement involved both Metro Rail and Metro Bus, so putting it the Metro Rail section would mean that in your version anyone who quickly scanned the article and only looked at the Metro Bus section would miss that information.

If you disagree, you could ask for more opinions by filing a Request for comments. You could also ask for the opinions of some of the members of the Southern California WikiProject, who should be more familiar with LACMTA. Blank Verse 10:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

NES series
The point im making is that these are THE ORIGINAL GAMES from the NES. So what you're saying is that these criticisms are relevent to the original 20+ year old NES games? I am not even including the word "Classic".

So when SMB was released in 1985 it was criticized for not having the levels and extras that didint even exist yet? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ERW1980 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Girl, Interrupted
Thanks! Poisonouslizzie 09:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I know you from somewhere...
...WHERE DO I KNOW YOU FROM...

Somewhere...somewhere. The name is indeed familiar. Xizer 10:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Karts
If you think all those karts from Mario Kart DS belong in a list, then why don't you make it? I personally think you can make a table with the info in the main game article. - Mgm|(talk) 13:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Tip: If you come across a large number of similar articles again, please consider making a mass nomination. (Putting them all on the same AFD page. - Mgm|(talk) 13:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Snaking
Article was previously deleted for containing "another term for anal sex". For it to be deleted for being a recreation, the article needs to be sufficiently similar to the earlier discussed content. Please renominate it on AFD. Instructions on how to do a renomination are on AFD. Just so you know. - Mgm|(talk) 13:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

So what is not a slang term for anal sex these days? --8bitJake 05:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Mass nomination
If you make a mass nomination, you change the link in the afd template on the article (in subst:afd) to whatever page you put the AFD discussion on.

In the header of the AFD discussion page, you name all articles, or if that takes too much space, you use a collective name and mention them in the body of your nomination. - Mgm|(talk) 22:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Generation Nex page
The Generation NEX page was the one of the first articles I tried to edit on the Wikipedia. I was still learning the ways. --8bitJake 05:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Yom Kippur War
Did you intend to duplicate the ongoing vote? : ) -- M P er el ( talk 05:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

 * No problem, it all got kind of buried earlier up on the talk page, and you were obviously just trying to help. -- M P er el ( talk 07:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Template:Main
Hi Hbdragon88. Template:Main is meant for links from subarticles back to main articles, not vice versa. I'm pretty sure Metrolink (Southern California) should continue to use details. See Template talk:Main. Mike Dillon 22:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I think it is telling that what you said about the Glendale train crash article, "to shift all the discussion and add more details", is so similar to the "For more details on this topic" used by the details template. If you really want to change it to main, would you mind discussing it on Talk:Metrolink (Southern California) before changing it? Mike Dillon 02:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

re: Talk page deletion
Hi there. We don't generally delete talk pages, unless they go with deleted articles (and not always then). Since you and Tregoweth have removed the soapboxing from them, and it shows no sign of returning, we may as well just leave the talk pages with their full history intact. There isn't a specific place to request talk page deletions, although out-of-the-ordinary requests can be placed at WP:SD. -Splash talk 02:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Kelly Martin's ArbCom candidacy page
At Arbitration Committee Elections January 2006/Vote/Kelly Martin I noticed that you have voted oppose, but you have placed your vote in the neutral section - was this intentional? Thryduulf 23:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I spotted that after I left the message on your talk page. As it currently stands with the vote in the neutral section struck out is the best imho. With voting pages you've to make it clear why votes were moved or removed, and at the moment it is nice and easy to see what happened. Its likely to be more confusing (imho) in edit summaries, so I'd say leave it. Thryduulf 00:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

HBHS
Hey Michael, I'll be working on Huntington Beach High School in the coming weeks. I'm out of town starting Thursday, but when I return I'll be doing some fact-finding about the school. I also have access to all the old yearbooks, so I think we could make the page into a featured article in the high school wikiproject. worth a shot, eh?WesleyPinkham 04:29, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Minimal clean up work done, but more importantly, I started a to-do list. I had sent Mr. Linzey an e-mail...months ago, he never responded. Because he's a POS. I'm over it. I'll do my own fact finding and what not. I've got a copy of the seal somewhere from a picture I took of the memorial in the front. It'd be fun to feature art around campus (primarily the mural and the tile art on the front of the office facing main street. anyway, feel free to make changes, i'll be working more when i get home on monday. WesleyPinkham 08:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

re :70s construction: That started soon after I graduated in 1972, so it was probably started in the Summer or Fall of 72. I only know the pre-destruction HBHS. I heard the main problem was in the way that the second stories were constructed, which is the reason that the Tower and Auditorium were allowed to remain standing. (Besides, if they had threatened to tear down the Tower, 65 years worth of HBHS alumni would have tried to block the demolition equipment. Do upper classmen still try to sell Tower Passes to naïve incoming freshmen?) If the small pond/nature center near the athletic field is still there, I was one of the students that built that. Your best bet for info will probably be either on campus (old school newspapers and yearbooks) or the large Main Library for Huntington Beach (going through either microfilm or microfiche of old Daily Pilot and Orange County Registers--except I think it was called the Santa Ana Register then). The '72 yearbook has a nice aerial photo on the inside covers--you might ask the yearbooks staff if they still have the original. You'll have to dig for verification, but if I remember correctly HBHS is the 2nd oldest continuous high school in Orange County. Blank Verse 12:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

 * This year is our centennial year, and as a yearbook editor for this year's book, I've been doing extensive work in the archives. I have access to the whole yearbook archive and will be digging through in the coming months to get everything this article needs. We have close to 1,000 scans that I'll burn to disc for use on this article. We don't have the pond/nature center that you're referring to, but I'd be happy to pick up a yearbook from that time period to see what was covered. (We don't sell Tower Passes but our librarian recalls her brother selling her one in her Freshman year..) Originals are hard to come by for a lot of the shots (Mr. Morehouse, the photo teacher has a few), but we have some high quality scanners at the school. Resources are pretty much endless... This article really has some POV issues...anyway, happy collaborating! WesleyPinkham 19:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

 * re: the aerial photo: I am sure that it was professionally done. The yearbook probably purchased the rights for a one-time use, so unfortunately it will probably be unusable on the Wikipedia. re: the pond: I know that there aren't any pictures or mentions in any of my yearbooks, although I think there were one or two articles on it in the school paper. It probably disappeared after the biology teacher who was responsible for creating it either left or retired (Mr. Ortiz). re: Tower Passes: They were fake passes usually created by students in the printing class that were sold to unsuspecting new students. Blank Verse 19:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I uploaded one of my shots for the bell tower image, as promised. I think it's an excellent addition to the page. Let me know what you think. WesleyPinkham 06:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Delinking Years
Hi I saw on one of you edits you included this notice de-linked years according to WP:MOSNUM) I'm not really sure what part of the Manual your basing this on but it is proper wikipedia policy to wikify every date, I'm not really sure why, but I read the MOSNUM and it said nothing to discourage this practice. Deathawk 20:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

What did you do?
You made an edit on my user page and listed WP:AUM as the reason. I read WP:AUM quite a few times, but I still don't understand the difference between a / and a |. Could you explain it to me? I'm just curious, that's all. - Hbdragon88 02:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi. As a result of WP:AUM the {{user wikipedia}} template was edited so that instead of showing different results depending on what came after the pipe '|' character (in this case the 'I do not want to be an admin' box) it just always showed 'This user is a Wikipedian' no matter what parameter was set after the '|'. The page was then protected in that format... causing hundreds of user pages to display boxes other than what the user intended. To remedy this, separate templates were created using the '/' to differentiate the various individual boxes. The format represents two calls to Template:User wikipedia... passing in the 'anti-administrator' parameter the first time and the 'rcp' parameter the second. In the past it would have displayed different results based on the parameter passed, but now it has been edited to ignore that. The new form,  are two separate templates which just have a '/' in their names. So, basically... some people trying to comply with WP:AUM (which actually isn't particularly important) made a mess of things and AzaToth, Commander Keane, myself, and others have been going through the individual user pages and cleaning it up. --CBD ☎ ✉ 02:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

GameFAQs
In regards to your question, yes- I am (or was, I should say) user Doom127 on those messageboards. I left over a year ago with regards to several changes in the site moderation system. It left too little leeway for honest discussion. Too many people who just wanted to start fights, too few people interested in actual discussion. Daniel Davis 07:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC) (Doom127)
 * September of 2005? That late? Well, I don't remember it, but it's possible. Either way, around that time I left and haven't been back.

Image:Mariokartdsemblem.jpg
Despite its current tag it looks like a screenshot from a video game. Those are considered to be copyrighted no matter who captures them and require a screenshot tag and fair use rationale on Wikipedia. On the Commons images like that are not allowed as all Commons images must be free. If you want a second opinion, I recommend asking people from the Image sleuthing project who are experts at this. See Image sleuthing. - Mgm|(talk) 22:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm unsure about the rules at Wikibooks, so you'd have to ask there. But if you want to use it there, you need to reupload (and properly tag it) there - not post it to the commons. - Mgm|(talk) 05:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Hack-a-Shaq
Do you know any more about this shooting coach you mentioned in your addition to the Hack-a-Shaq article? I know he was working with that Austratlian guy back around 2000/2001, but then he dropped him. I'd heard O'Ndal many times after that swear off further coaching, so I hadn't heard he'd relented and hired someone else in/around 2004. Do you have any idea about the new coach's name or background? I'd like to add some detail on that if I can find any. Thanks! Mwelch 22:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I've been searching but haven't found any reference to him hiring a new shooting coach after that first guy. I'll keep looking though. Mwelch 00:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Just as an FYI, I've been unable to find anything that substantiates what you're remembering being in the 2004 timeframe. Reviewing his statistics, Shaq'a free throw numbers since 2004 are actually the worst they've ever been in his career. So I've re-worked the section that you added, operating under the assumption that you're correctly remembering what was reported in the articles, but that you read those articles in 2001, not 2004. Thus, the shooting coach you remember reading about is the same one I had heard about and mentioned above, and indeed Shaq has remained dead set against any more personal coaching since that time. Therefore, since he's back to being absolutely horrible at free throws again, rumors of Hack-a-Shaq's demise have been greatly exaggerated. 8-) Let me know if you think I'm horribly off-base on my re-write.  Mwelch 04:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Kelly's Wikibreak or vacation
Hbdragon88, I noticed this addition to Kelly Martin's page after her last page edit in early February from Man in Black which, according to his comment, read "vandalizing with a picture of a dick". I also read the February 4th posts on your talk page under the heading "Wikibreak" with a few individuals stating they regret Kelly is taking a "wikibreak" (I used the term vacation, should've used this). From these two, it seemed that someone had vandalized her page with a picture while she was gone. Now reading her contributions, she has been active since then, however I was simply defending the integrity of another user's page. It was with the most sincere intent I did this. My apologies if I overstepped my bounds. Netkinetic 05:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Handheld video game consoles
THe micro was a radical redesign, as opposed ot hte other varients. And also the micro is the smallest ever handhel d video game console, thus it its wirht merit IMO. --Larsinio 01:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Game & Watch
Sorry about the deletion, I should have performed the history merge. But I'm wondering... do you want the final article to be at Nintendo Game & Watch or at Game & Watch? Mushroom (Talk) 22:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Lueshi vote count
I'm more than happy to share that with you. A total number of 25 votes were cast. I discarded seven of those (of which 5 keep votes, 1 merge and 1 delete). 18 votes were counted for the consensus. Keep gathered 33% of the votes. Merge harvested 28%, and delete 22%. Then the shared type of votes; Merge/delete and merge/keep gained 6% and 11%. Clearly, this is not a consensus in either way. Soothing R  08:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

re:Image help
It was because you had enclosed the image in 🇦🇩 rather than and. So MediaWiki thought you wanted to transclude the page itself (as if it were a template, basically) rather than display the image. I fixed it. -Splash talk 05:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Removing the zits link
Thanks for the explanation about the redirect--I missed that fact the first time. Sorry for the mis-revert.  · rodii  ·  01:58, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Vanishing pages
The Wikimedia servers have been behaving a little...off colour...in the last few days and various people have been alarmed by this effect. The solution appears to be a combination of purging the page and repeatedly asking for the version from the history or the edit box itself until the servers tell the truth. Developer Brion Vibber has indicated that this was a bug, see WP:VPT, where he says it should be nearly fixed now. -Splash talk 22:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm?
On the ZERO-ONE (Pokémon Snap) page, you replaced my db-bio with a redirect. However, when I clicked on the page itself, it still reflected my version (the last changes I made), and it was only by looking in the "diff" that I found out what you had done. Did Wikipedia...somehow...preserved your edit differences, but actually didn't store the edit to teh actual page itself? Or is it my browser? - Hbdragon88 04:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Chances are there is an issue with your browser caching the page, or that you may have somehow looked up an old version. If it persists today, try reloading the page by pressing Ctrl-F5.
 * Incidentally, db-bio can only be used for articles about real people, not fictional characters, not vehicles, and not fictional vehicles. I find prod useful for this, however. Thanks! Stifle 13:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

mario dude
I agree, but I am not an admin. --OrbitOne 10:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

MUN
Did I get an award?! I'm dying to know. WesleyPinkham 23:18, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Game Boy micro
Hi, I just wanted to let you know that I removed your CSD tag for Game Boy micro because it seems that on that article's talk page there was a previous discussion about this move. The result of this discussion seems to have yielded no consensus on the matter. Since speedy deletions really isn't the proper method to go about this, I suggest you try listing the article on WP:RM. Thanks -- malo (tlk) (cntrbtns) 06:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Alan Colmes
On January 18th, 2006, you made a revision to the Alan Colmes article in which you included him in the category "pro-life celebrities." I assume this was an honest mistake on your part, and I would encourage you to research more carefully before throwing people into categories in which they obviously don't belong. Stanley011 23:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

 * That's ok--I've made many worse mistakes than that. Stanley011 14:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment on the GBA SP IfD
I put the image on IfD because the image isn't actually orphaned if one user keeps inserting it into articles, so the count should be from the last date it was used in an article; I just didn't update it because the IfD will close sooner and I see zero chance of it being kept. Also, at least the IP editor gets a chance at explaining why this image is so important, even if he seems not to use that chance at the moment. -- grm_wnr Esc  23:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Lyn Me
I'm slightly confused by your move request. If you don't think that Lyn Me deserves a separate article, you can just copy and paste the contents into a new section of the List of minor residents of Tatooine article, and change Lyn Me to a redirect. You can do all this without going through any formal process. Let me know if you need any more information. — sjorford (talk)  13:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well spotted :) Don't know what I was thinking there. Never mind, ignore me.... — sjorford (talk)  21:37, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

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Problem solved
I fixed your ref problem that you posted on the Village Pump. Look there for the solution. J. Finkelstein 12:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Wild Dogs
hey... I have merged the early histories of Wild Dog with Wild Dog (Time Crisis) per your request on Cut and paste move repair holding pen. Thanks! └ UkPaolo/talk┐ 20:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Category:Aspergian Wikipedians
Category:Aspergian Wikipedians which you have included on your user page has been proposed for deletion you can comment at Categories for deletion. The is also a proposal to create an association to meet the needs of users with mental health conditions. --Salix alba (talk) 18:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Superman 64
Thanks for reminding me; I dealt with it. DS 03:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Another LA-area Wikipedia meetup?
There is a proposal for a 3rd LA-area meetup at Philippe's on Saturday, 24 June 2006. If you are interested in another meetup, please visit the proposal and comment on the date and location. Blank Verse 08:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Pokemon Archives History Merge
I merged the history from Wikipedia talk:Pokémon Collaborative Project/Archive1 into Wikipedia talk:Pokémon Collaborative Project/Archive 1 and deleted both Wikipedia talk:Pokémon Collaborative Project/Archive1 and Pokémon Collaborative Project/Archive1 as they seemed to be unnecessary redirects with no incoming links. If you disagree and would like them restored, or if I did anything wrong, please contact me and I will restore them immediately. AmiDaniel (talk) 03:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Pit
For future reference, you can move an article back over a redirect if that redirect's sole edit is to create the redirect. i.e. when Pit (Nintendo) was moved to Pit (Kid Icarus), Pit (Nintendo)'s history consisted solely of the creation of the redirect. Until you added the speedy notice, it could have been moved back over it. --Golbez 22:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Justin Berry
Greetings... Thanks for your work to improve the article on Justin Berry, especially in archiving the talk page & fixing the redundant references. I noticed you moved the High school section back to the top of the article. I was planning on deleting the section since it contains uncited references, based on previous discussions in Talk:Justin Berry/Archive 1 regarding the deletion of the original article and the need to carefully cite sources. I had initially moved that section to the end of the article, so as not to emphasize it over & above the focus of the article, the situation for which Berry gained notoriety, and to give the original contributor a chance to add a citation.

I wanted to give you some background on the situation with this article. There are strong feelings among some of the editors on this article, and there has been a complaint from the article's subject about the article's accuracy & point-of-view, resulting in User:Jimbo Wales deleting the original article, and in a later application of WP:OFFICE. What I'll probably do is move the High school section to the talk page, so its information isn't lost while a reference is located. I didn't want to just go & do it & leave you feeling like your work was arbitrarily being undone.--Ssbohio 03:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Hello Hbdragon88. Sshbohio left a request for a third opinion on the use of ampersand in the Justin Berry article. I haven't read it or the discussion with Sshbohio yet but will do so in the next hour or so and offer MHO. Best. Ekilfeather 12:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Opinion is over on [Talk:Justin_Berry]. Best Ekilfeather 13:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

VP
It happens on Vandal proof since you can't cancel actions. :P Yanksox 04:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Headers
It is harder to edit, and it looks daft. If you don't like the TOC, hide it then. I suggest we take it to the talk page, because we won't decide. Regards, H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 10:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Templates
I thank you for your message about the Director:Templates, I respect your opinion about them, and I just believe that these templates help the Wikipedian fan in jumping from one movie to another, without having to reach the Director/Writer/Composer article and then looking for the movie or the book or composition. If you think that there is one unnecessary, contact me and I join you for deleite it, like the Uwe Boll template. User:Jainituos

Thanks!
Thanks for the archive box. I've been meaning to work out how to do that for ages! -Splash - tk 23:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Race
Actually, I had just finished protecting it when I got that message. Academic Challenger 06:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Compositions by Cole Porter
Since you nominated the category for merging and the decision was Keep, I hope you'll be pleased that I cleaned up the category, removing the songs, and adding full musicals. I also added descriptions to both Category:Compositions by Cole Porter and Category:Songs by Cole Porter to help editors categorize correctly in the future. -- Usgnus 00:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Pokémon Gold and Silver
Hello there. Only general templates (like Template:Cleanup) need an entry in the Talk page to explain why the tag has been put there. Specific templates like Template:Inappropriate person or Template:Cleanup-spam don't really need a talk page entry as they already explain why they have been inserted in the article. As for why I wrote that in the summary, note that in the last change I did I removed a paragraph which was in familiar tone (if you trade, you will obtain, gave to you, etc). The Inappropriate person tag was removed before this paragraph was cleaned. The options were to either clean up that paragraph, change the tag for the Template:Inappropriate tone one, or delete it as Wikipedia is not an instruction manual nor FAQ.

Note that "Little first or second person" usage in an article is enough to have the tag there so that someone else can clean the "offending" lines. Although both Inappropriate person and inappropriate tone could have been used, I prefer the former as it is much easier to understand than the later. Hope that clarifies it all. -- ReyBrujo 03:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi
Did you redirect Offical mods and unoffical mods to AOW:HT. Iam making a list of upcoming mods for AOW:HT. --SkyWalker 16:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi again.
Iam expanding those articles. Currently iam working List of units and other function. I was going to put the links there. The next day i came those articles just disapperared for past three days i was tracing it. I found out that just now. --SkyWalker 16:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Re FP
Please check replies to your query on FPs Wikipedia_talk:Featured_picture_candidates. --jjron 10:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

2010 FIFA World Cup qualification article
I've done some work on the 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification article. I've basically deleted the crystal ball stuff that was in the article. If you think it's satisfactory, then you can take down the tag. Kingjeff 05:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Gamez4gamerz.piczo.com
Greetings. I changed it to a PROD because it's a poorly-formatted and -written advertisement. It didn't seem incoherent enough to me to merit CSD A1. Not salvageable indeed, as it's an advertisement, but "advertisement" is not grounds for a CSD. IceKarmaॐ 08:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Will (computer game)
Thanks for clarification, and I'll keep that in mind if I ever need to merge articles. Tristam 17:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Gym Leaders
Thank you for realising about the Kanto Gym Leaders. The Gym Leaders have been merged and have information, so feel free to add images, or more data. I also noticed on your user page that you wanted help, I would be glad to help you, just tell me what you need help with on my talk page and I would gladly help you with it Poke Master  (Talk • Contribs) 19:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

school deletion
I know, but it had a location; it doesn't need a street address. School deletions are often controversial. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 01:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Taylor Stevens
Thanks for your witty comment, you've restored my good humor.--Fil e  Éireann 00:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Ganeshbot
The edits by Ganeshbot are clearly labelled with edit summary, so you should clearly be able to distinguish it. Regards, Blnguyen | rant-line 04:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC).

Bots on New pages
I got your message about the trouble going through new page patrol. I cannot think of an option to hide the bot edits on that page. You can request that feature here though. It would help a lot. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 15:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Cornwall parishes
Hi, thanks for the feedback. Yes these are notable entries, and there is plently to fill in here, but I only have one set of hands! These entries will get filled out in good time, but I've just been creating stubs for now as a starting point, and to create a focus around which others can work. I've previously been working on parishes of Penwith, some of which were non-existent when I started (St. Buryan for example), but many of which are in a better state now. There are only a few of us that are actually working to seriously improve the content of Cornwall geography articles, so it may take some time to get there! Hope that helps clear up the notabilty query? take care Mammal4 20:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for replying to my entry. Its so nice to see people  acting in a warm and civil way toward one another.... Honestly, you criticise Ahoerstemeier for cold editing but by not acknowledging my response you are acting in the same way yourself! Mammal4 10:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

 * By the way, having read your question again it seems that there is some confusion as to what a parish actually is. You've lumped it in a sentence with churches and templets.  Civil parishes are administrative divisions of county districts, an area of land maybe of around 10 000 acres that might contain several villages and towns. They don't have anything to do with religion.  Maybe you are confusing these with ecclesiastical parishes which are subdivisions of land used by the christian church to divide up worshippers.  Sometimes the boundries of the two types are the same, but more often these days they are not.  Sorry if I have misquoted you on this and that wasn't what you meant - I was a little confused as to why you would not think a civil parish notable, but it makes more sense if you thought it was a type of chapel or something.  Mammal4 10:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry - maybe I was being a bit sensitive about it, but I was still waiting to see if you'd decided that you wanted them deleted, and wanted to know if I was going to have to deal with a conflict over it. I've come across too many 'cold' editors in my time on the site who steamroller over others and either ignore the questions you put to them, or give caustic replies.  I had a quick stalk through your edit history (which I should have done before I bit your head off)and I can see that you aren't one of those now!  Take care Mammal4 18:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Your semi-protection request on WP:RFPP
Your semi-protection request on behalf of an anon has been denied. There is not enough recent activity to justify semi-protection. Kimchi.sg 08:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Free barnstar for everyone
For everyones contributions in the PCP, I hereby award this barnstar to all PCP members.

Pan Am
Well I'm not the one that removed the bullets. You should look more carefully at the history and post your comment to the user's page that did remove the bullets. Clipper471 22:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

March Together For Life
I would suggest that you not be so hasty with the call for deletion of the March Together For Life article. Already that website has jumped in hits to well over a hundred thousand (from just a couple a week prior) in a couple of days because of the internet phenomenon it has generated. This is (albeit for a political satire reason) an early stage of the Tron Guy. For perspective, it has already generated more page views than the majority of small town newspapers do in a month. Just a kindly suggestion that it not be tagged it for deletion. Lestatdelc 06:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

new day boilerplate
Why did you remove today's new nominations section? That is relied upon for links. Where did you discuss this before making the change?
 * --William Allen Simpson 17:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I removed it because I thought it was superfluous. Two commented comments already indicate where the nominations should go.  It was also rather ugly to see a huge NEW NOMINATIONS header on the top of each TFD page.  Was there a discussion page someplace that indicated that having a huge NEW NOMINATIONS was better and more useful than the two commented comments? Hbdragon88 17:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes.

Note that the comments are not visible to the editors, until after they have already clicked on the appropriate place. When they don't follow instructions, they will never see those hidden comments (or may see the one at the bottom that tells them to go back to the top).

As a point of interest, for awhile I had tried NEW NOMINATIONS.

We appreciate your indulgence in accepting things that appear to be "ugly" to you, as experience has shown that it helps less esthetically aware folks color inside the lines. Thank you.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Port City PD
What can I do to clean this article up?

-No-Dachi

Okay, I submitted the press information I know of the site. Will that be sufficient?

What do you mean? Sign it where?

Oh.. Since it met the requirements. can I remove the deletion notice?

The Schools' Rugby Website
I submitted an article with the above subject heading recently and it has been deleted. Some of the reasons for the deletion were not clear, particularly someone stating that there were no hits from a Google search. In truth we are placed at number one if the full title or "schools rugby" is used as the search criteria and third if "rugby website" is used. Can you please let me know if you think the article could be re-phrased in order to be more compliant; or am I wasting my time. Thank you and kind regards Phil

Lots of work
I noticed that on your user page was the message "I have lots of work". Is there anything I can do to help you? — M  inun    Spiderman  11:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, i'll help with the Pokémon related tasks, cheers — M  inun    Spiderman  14:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * i've fixed up Pokémon Red and Blue like you wanted on the page, cheers — M  inun    Spiderman  11:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I undertsand your problem with the Glitches getting deleted, I think you did a good job and I don't think it was a good idea those getting deleted. It has been suggested the rest get merged, but that would make it worse so i'd just like to warn you, cheers — M  inun    Spiderman  15:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Animorphs suggestions
The proposed mergers sound good, I'll go ahead and do them. Thanks!--Lkjhgfdsa 20:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Another thing: since Esplin 9466 the Prime did hold the rank of Visser One for a while, I feel that the latter page shouldn't redirect to Edriss 562.--Lkjhgfdsa 20:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Signpost updated for July 24th

You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. --Michael Snow 04:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Hbdragon88/Archive 1


text:
Chapel Hill, Queensland

Chapel Hill is a western suburb in the City of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. In the, Chapel Hill had a population of 10,511 people.

Geography
Chapel Hill is primarily a residential suburb, consisting of mostly detached housing and backs on to the Mt Coot-tha reserve and walking tracks.

History
The suburb takes its name from the Primitive Methodist chapel built on the top of the hill in 1874.

The ground for the Primitive Methodist Church in Indooroopilly (as Chapel Hill was then known) was officially broken in a ceremony on Monday 10 November 1873. The church opened on Sunday 28 March 1875. The current church was built in 1955, with the historic church retained as a community facility. As the church is located on a highpoint within the area, the suburb takes its name from this church on the hill. On 20 November 1922, the Queensland Governor Matthew Nathan officially opened the Industrial School for Boys on a site between Moggill Road and Jerrang Road (now 724 Moggill Road, -27.5093°N, 152.9564°W). It was operated by the Salvation Army for orphaned, abandoned and neglected boys. The 22 acre site had been purchased for £2300 and donated by philanthropist William Robert Black, who also paid £2700 to extend and renovate the buildings on site and for new furnishings. Black also provided for £100 per annum for maintenance. When it opened, there were 35 boys under the supervision of the first superintendent, Ensign Rogan. The school could provide accommodation for 50 boys supervised by nine staff. In 1942, due to fears of a Japanese invasion during World War II, the school evacuated to Washpool. In 1945 the school returned to the Indooroopilly site where it operated as a boys' home rather than as an industrial school. In 1968 was renamed Cooinda Salvation Army Home for Boys, but was renamed again in 1969 to be Alkira, Salvation Army Home for Boys. It closed in 1983 due to a loss of funding. As at 2021, the site is still owned by the Salvation Army, but has been reduced to 53320 m2 and is used to operate The Cairns Aged Care Centre. The buildings of the former boys' home are no longer extant.

Chapel Hill State School opened on 23 January 1978. with an enrolment of 152 pupils after the Queensland Government acquired 6.8 ha of land in 1976. In 1979 the first teaching block and covered area were built, and by 1982 there were 324 pupils justifying building a separate library, so it could move out of the Administration block. A number of demountable buildings were acquired as the population increased, and in 1997 a new hall was rented. In June 2012 the Ross Perry Resource Centre was opened; named after retiring principal Ross Perry. The school uniform was designed in 1977 and was changed slightly in 1994. It was also changed in 2013.

Demographics
In the, Chapel Hill had a population of 10,168 people.

In the, Chapel Hill had a population of 10,113 people, 50.7% female and 49.3% male. The median age of the Chapel Hill population was 41 years of age, 3 years above the Australian median. 64.1% of people living in Chapel Hill were born in Australia, compared to the national average of 71.1%; the next most common countries of birth were England 5.8%, South Africa 3.1%, New Zealand 2.9%, China 2.2%, India 1.4%. 78.5% of people spoke only English at home; the next most popular languages were 3.8% Mandarin, 1.3% Cantonese, 0.9% Spanish, 0.9% German, 0.8% Korean. Chapel Hill has a highly educated population with over 49% of residents holding a bachelor's degree or above, compared to the Australian average of 22.0%.

In the, Chapel Hill had a population of 10,511 people.

Education
The suburb of Chapel Hill falls into the catchment of Chapel Hill State School, Indooroopilly State School and Kenmore State School.

Chapel Hill State School is a government primary (Prep–6) school for boys and girls at 20 Ironbark Road (-27.4993°N, 152.9449°W). In 2018, the school had an enrolment of 744 students with 52 teachers (43 full-time equivalent) and 27 non-teaching staff (17 full-time equivalent). It includes a special education program.

The nearest government secondary schools are Indooroopilly State High School in neighbouring Indooroopilly to the east and Kenmore State High School in neighbouring Kenmore to the west.

There are no private schools in Chapel Hill.

Transport
Moggill Road is the major road through Chapel Hill connecting it to the suburbs of Indooroopilly to the east, and Kenmore to the west. The Western Freeway allows quick access to the suburb from around Brisbane and with the opening of the Legacy Way tunnel, the traffic flow is significantly better at peak times and the commute to the airport takes approx 25 mins, when travelling via both Legacy Way and Airport Link tunnels. There are also the four bus routes, the 425, the 426, the 427 and the 428 that service a large portion of Chapel Hill. The 425 travels to Indooroopilly shopping centre and Toowong Village, continuing into the Brisbane CBD. The 426 is an express bus that services only Chapel Hill, and then travels direct to the CBD via the Western Freeway (M5), Legacy Way Tunnel, and onto the Inner Northern Busway. The morning P426 commute is less than 25 minutes from Chapel Hill to the Brisbane CBD, even in peak hour, due to this routing.

For cyclists, Chapel Hill is extremely well serviced with dedicated bikeway access to the CBD via the Centenary Bikeway, Sylvan Road bike path, and Coronation Drive Bikeway.

The morning P426 bus includes direct stops at Brisbane Grammar School, Brisbane Girls Grammar School, St Joseph's College, Gregory Terrace, and other inner city Private Schools. The 425 bus has direct access to Brisbane Boys' College. The 427 bus route provides direct access to Indooroopilly State High School and St Peters Lutheran College.

Chapel Hill is close to the University of Queensland, with direct bus routes to and from the university.

Amenities
There are no major shopping centres in Chapel Hill, but there are two small shopping precincts, one centred on Moggill Road, Market Street and Moordale Streets (-27.5057°N, 152.9603°W) and another on Fleming Road (-27.4943°N, 152.9454°W). A major shopping centre, Indooroopilly Shopping Centre, is in neighbouring Indooroopilly and there are supermarkets in neighbouring Kenmore.

The only church in Chapel Hill is Chapel Hill Uniting Church located on the hill at 9 Chapel Hill Road (corner of Moggill Road, -27.5078°N, 152.9532°W). The church hall was originally a Primitive Methodist chapel built in 1875, and the suburb takes its name from this chapel on the hill. There is a small closed cemetery beside the church (-27.5076°N, 152.9535°W). Although the cemetery is located on the same parcel of land as the church, it was established as a general cemetery and not associated with the church.

The Chapel Hill State School hall is sometimes used for numerous events such as local, state and federal elections and weekly church services.

Many locals take advantage of the hiking and walking trails in Mount Coot-tha Reserve which climb to the summit of Mount Coot-tha and overlooks Brisbane. Native fauna and flora are often seen on these paths. Some of these trails also attract mountain bikers on the weekends. A popular spot for locals is the Green Hill Reservoir off Chapel Hill Road which includes an off-leash area for dogs and of the city so it is usually crowded during events hosting fireworks, such as Brisbane Riverfire. Running and exercise groups often also use this area in the early hours. There are bike paths in the suburb which link up to roads and bikeways that ultimately stretch through the western suburbs to the Brisbane CBD.

The Cairns Aged Care Centre is at 724-730 Moggill Road (-27.5086°N, 152.9578°W). It is operated by the Salvation Army. It is named after named after two Salvation Army Commissioners, brothers William Cairns and Alistair Cairns.

Parks
There are a number of parks in the area:

 * Alana Court Park (-27.4981°N, 152.9484°W)
 * Ardes Street Park (-27.4961°N, 152.9478°W)
 * Bielby Road Park (-27.4896°N, 152.9351°W)
 * Boblynne Street Park (no.32) (-27.5056°N, 152.9487°W)
 * Boblynne Street Park (no 64) (-27.5041°N, 152.949°W)
 * Cicada Park on Ironbark Road (-27.4956°N, 152.9417°W)
 * Clarina Street Park (-27.5012°N, 152.9609°W)
 * Cubberla Creek Reserve, also known as Akuna Oval, on Hepworth Street (-27.5148°N, 152.9524°W)
 * Dillingen Street Park (-27.4917°N, 152.9404°W)
 * Green Hill Reservoir Park, also known as Tom Gaffney Lookout, top of Russell Terrace (-27.4956°N, 152.9575°W)
 * Hakea Crescent Park (-27.5015°N, 152.9437°W)
 * Kennewell Park off Spring Street (-27.507°N, 152.9597°W)
 * Ludlow Street Park (-27.5027°N, 152.9527°W)
 * Maculata Drive Park (-27.5042°N, 152.9425°W)
 * Marminde Street Park (-27.4931°N, 152.9481°W)
 * Merri Merri Park on Greenford Street (-27.4841°N, 152.9397°W)
 * Moordale Street Park (-27.5037°N, 152.9577°W)
 * Mount Coot-tha Reserve, top of Fleming Road (-27.4816°N, 152.9456°W)
 * Nankoor Street Park (no.9) (-27.4926°N, 152.9501°W)
 * Rebecca Street Park (-27.5011°N, 152.9479°W)
 * Robin Powell Park, formerly Goolman Street Park (-27.4995°N, 152.9399°W)
 * Sands Place Park (-27.4948°N, 152.9463°W)
 * Sleaford Street Park (-27.488°N, 152.942°W)
 * Sutling Street Park (-27.5101°N, 152.9513°W)

title: Chapel Hill, Queensland


text:
Elisha ben Abuyah

Elisha ben Abuyah (אלישע בן אבויה) (spelled variously, including Elisha ben Avuya) was a rabbi and Jewish religious authority born in Jerusalem sometime before 70 CE. After he adopted a worldview considered heretical by his fellow Tannaim, the rabbis of the Talmud refrained from relating teachings in his name and referred to him as the "Other One" (אחר, Acher). In the writings of the Geonim this name appears as "Achor" ("backwards"), because Elisha was considered to have "turned backwards" by embracing heresy.

Youth and activity
Little is known of Elisha's youth and of his activity as a teacher of Jewish Law. He was the son of a rich and well-respected citizen of Jerusalem, and was trained for the career of a scholar. The only saying of his recorded in the Mishnah is his praise of education: "Learning Torah as a child is like writing on fresh paper, but learning Torah in old age is like writing on a palimpsest." Other sayings attributed to Elisha indicate that he stressed mitzvot (commandments) as equal in importance to education: "To whom may a man who has good deeds and has studied much Torah be compared? To a man who in building [lays] stones first [for a foundation] and then lays bricks [over them], so that however much water may collect at the side of the building, it will not wash away. Contrariwise, he who has no good deeds even though he has studied much Torah — to whom may he be compared? To a man who in building lays bricks first and then heaps stones over them, so that even if a little water collects, it at once undermines the structure."

He evidently had a reputation as an authority in questions of religious practice, since the Talmud records one of his halakhic decisions — the only one in his name, although others may be recorded under the names of his students or different rabbis.

Elisha was a student of Greek; as the Talmud expresses it, "Acher's tongue was never tired of singing Greek songs". While still in the beth midrash, he is said to have kept forbidden books hidden in his clothes. Wilhelm Bacher, in his analysis of Talmudic legends, wrote that the similes attributed to Elisha (including the ones cited above) show that he was a man of the world, acquainted with wine, horses, and architecture. Some historians call into question his apostasy as he is presented in the Talmud as a scholar with no mention of his theological departure.

Several stories are told in rabbinic literature about events leading to Elisha's apostasy:
 * When he was in the womb before birth, his mother would pass by houses of idolatry and inhale the scent of the incense; this scent remained in him to affect him "like the venom of a snake".
 * When Elisha was a baby, many rabbis were invited to his circumcision. When they began to teach the Talmud and to learn the inner depths of its meanings, "their appearance became of fire and the whole room turned ablaze" due to their sanctity. When Elisha's father entered the room and saw this, he decided to dedicate his child fully to Torah study, but since the father did so with improper intentions, the dedication did not last.
 * Elisha observed a child lose his life while fulfilling two laws for which the observance of the Torah promises a "long life" - honoring one's parents, and sending away a mother bird - whereas a man who broke the same law was not hurt in the least (the Talmud says that Elisha should have understood the "long life" to refers to a long life in the world to come).
 * Elisha saw the detached tongue of Rabbi Hutzpit the Interpreter (one of the Ten Martyrs) being dragged through the streets, after his being murdered. He exclaimed in shock "Should a mouth which produced such pearls of torah, now lick the dust?"
 * According to the Babylonian Talmud, he entered the "Orchard" (pardes) of esoteric knowledge, and saw the angel Metatron sitting down (an action that is not done in the presence of God). Elishah ben Abuyah therefore looks to Metatron as a deity and says heretically: "There are indeed two powers in Heaven!" The rabbis explain that Metatron had permission to sit because of his function as the Heavenly Scribe, writing down the deeds of Israel. The Talmud states, it was proved to Elisha that Metatron could not be a second deity by the fact that Metatron received 60 "strokes with fiery rods" to demonstrate that Metatron was not a god, but an angel, and could be punished. (See also the remarks on the four who entered Pardes (below)

The four who entered the pardes
One of the most striking references to Elisha is found in a legendary baraita about four rabbis of the Mishnaic period (first century CE) who visited the pardes (Hebrew: פרדס orchard): "Four men entered the pardes — Ben Azzai, Ben Zoma, Acher [that is, Elisha], and Rabbi Akiva.... Ben Azzai looked and died... Ben Zoma looked and was harmed [i.e. went mad]... Acher chopped down the saplings; Akiva entered in peace and departed in peace."

The Tosafot, medieval commentaries on the Talmud, say that the four sages "did not go up literally, but it appeared to them as if they went up." Ginzberg, on the other hand, writes that the journey to paradise "is to be taken literally and not allegorically"; "in a moment of ecstasy [Elisha] beheld the interior of heaven", but "he destroyed the plants of the heavenly garden".

The Babylonian Talmud explains what Elisha "saw" as a mystical experience: "What is the meaning of "Acher destroyed the plants"? Of him scripture says: "Do not let your mouth cause your flesh to sin". What does this mean? Acher saw that Metatron had been granted authority to sit while he record the merits of Israel, and he said: "We have been taught that in heaven there is no sitting.... Perhaps there are — God forbid! — two supreme powers". They brought him to Metatron and they smote him with sixty bands of fire. They said to Metatron: "When you saw him, why did you not stand up before him?" The authority was granted to Metatron to erase the merits of Acher. A heavenly voice was heard: "'Repent, O backsliding children!' [All may repent from their sins...] except for Acher.""

Whereas the Jerusalem Talmud seems to explain what Elisha "saw" as an earthly occurrence: humans suffering in a way that seemed to contradict the idea of reward and punishment.

The Jerusalem Talmud also describes Elisha's activities after becoming a heretic. It is said that he would kill any student who was succeeding in Torah study. Also, he would enter the beit midrash and see boys studying Torah, and recommend that they take trades such as building or carpentry, thus causing them to abandon their studies. Also, during the persecution (by Hadrian), when the enslaved Jews were attempting to perform their labor in a way that minimized Shabbat violation (i.e. two individuals each carrying part of a single load), Elisha would instruct the Romans to forbid this manner of labor, forcing the Jews to violate Shabbat to a greater extent.

Analysis of the Babylonian Talmud's account
Regarding the story in the Babylonian Talmud, Ginzberg comments that "the reference here to Metatron — a specifically Babylonian idea, which would probably be unknown to Palestinian rabbis even five hundred years after Elisha — robs the passage of all historical worth". Instead, he highlights the contrast between the accounts in the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud, noting that the Jerusalem Talmud "makes no mention of Elisha's dualism; but it relates that in the critical period following the Bar Kokhba revolt, Elisha visited the schools and attempted to entice the students from the study of the Torah, in order to direct their energies to some more practical occupation; and it is to him, therefore, that the verse "Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin" is to be applied. In connection with this the biblical quotation is quite intelligible, as according to another aggadah, "flesh" here means children — spiritual children, pupils — whom Elisha killed with his mouth by luring them from the study of the Torah."

Others disagree with Ginzberg, suggesting that he failed to account for the regular travel of sages between Judea and Babylonia to collect and transmit scholarly teachings. Furthermore, scholar Hugh Odeberg has dated portions of the pseudepigraphal Third Book of Enoch, which discusses Metatron, to the first or second century CE, before the redaction of both the Jerusalem and the Babylonian Talmuds, and other scholars have found the concept of Metatron in texts older than 70 CE.

Medieval philosopher Rabbi Yehuda Halevi explained that the heightened spiritual experience of "entering the Pardes" brought Elisha to belittle the importance of practical religious observance: "The third one [Elisha] fell into bad ways, because he viewed the spiritual entities and said, "These deeds are but tools and preparations to attain that spiritual level. Having already reached this level, I have no need for the Torah's commandments." He became corrupt and corrupted others; he went astray and caused others to go astray."

Rabbi Alon Goshen-Gottstein argues that rabbinic stories should be read as literature rather than as history: "They [the rabbis] construct stories that are then integrated into larger ideologically motivated literary units in such a way as to impart particular ideological messages. The sources do not necessarily relate the historical facts about the heroes but they do illustrate the cultural concerns that find expression in the stories told about them. ... All this leads to the realization that the significant unit for presentation is not the life of the sage; it is the stories about sages. These stories are not formulated in an attempt to tell the life of the sage. They are told because the sage, as part of the collective culture, has some bearing on the common cultural concerns. Various anecdotes are coupled into a larger story cycle."

According to Goshen-Gottstein, Rabbinic Judaism was based on vigorous and often contentious debate over the meaning of the Torah and other sacred texts. One challenge facing the rabbis was to establish the degree of heterodoxy that was acceptable in debate. In this context, Elisha the heretic and Eleazar ben Arach represent two extremes in attitudes towards the Torah; actual rabbis and their arguments had to fit somewhere between these two limits.

His heterodoxy
According to Louis Ginzberg "it is almost impossible to derive from rabbinical sources a clear picture of his personality, and modern historians have differed greatly in their estimate of him. According to Grätz, he was a Karpotian Gnostic; according to Siegfried, a follower of Philo; according to Dubsch, a Christian; according to Smolenskin and Weiss, a victim of the inquisitor Akiva."

Elisha a Sadducee
Ginzberg suggests that Elisha became a Sadducee, since the Jerusalem Talmud mentions Elisha's betrayal of the Pharisees. Also, one of the reasons given for Elisha's apostasy is characteristic of a Sadducee perspective: Elisha is said to have seen a child lose his life while fulfilling two laws for which the observance of the Torah promised a "long life" - honoring one's father and mother, and sending away a mother bird, whereas a man who broke the same law was not hurt in the least. This encounter, as well as the frightful sufferings of Jewish martyrs during the Hadrianic persecutions, led Elisha to the conclusion that there was no reward for virtue. Thus, Ginzberg suggests that Elisha was a Sadducee, since Sadducee philosophy rejects an afterlife and argues that reward and punishment must occur on Earth (while Pharisee sages interpreted this passage as referring to life and reward in the next world). However, Elisha's abandonment of Jewish practice after his troubling encounters seems to indicate that, whatever his earlier philosophy, Elisha abandoned any form of Jewish religion.

Elisha an "Epikoros"
The harsh treatment he received from the Pharisees was due to his having deserted their ranks at such a critical time. Quite in harmony with this supposition are the other sins laid to his charge; namely, that he rode in an ostentatious manner through the streets of Jerusalem on a Yom Kippur which fell on Shabbat, and that he chose to overstep the techum. Both the Jerusalem and the Babylonian Talmuds agree here, and cite this as proof that Elisha turned from Pharisaism to heresy. It was just such non-observance of laws that excited the anger of Akiva.

Ginzburg writes that the mention of the "Holy of Holies" in this passage is not an anachronism, as Grätz thinks, for while it is true that Eliezer and Joshua were present as the geonim par excellence at Elisha's circumcision—which must, therefore, have occurred after the death of Johanan ben Zakkai (80)—it is also true that the "Holy of Holies" is likewise mentioned in connection with Rabbi Akiva; indeed, the use of this expression is due to the fact that the Rabbis held holiness to be inherent in the place, not in the building.

The same passage from the Jerusalem Talmud refers to Elisha as being alive when his pupil Rabbi Meir had become a renowned teacher. According to the above assumption, he must have reached his seventieth year at that time. Of all Elisha's colleagues he alone, perhaps in the hope of reclaiming him for Judaism, continued to associate with him and discuss with him scientific subjects, not heeding the remonstrances of some pious rabbis who regarded this association with some suspicion. Meir's attachment for Elisha was so great that on the death of the latter he is said to have spread his mantle over his friend's grave. Thereupon, according to a legend, a pillar of smoke arose from it, and Meir, paraphrasing Ruth 3:13, exclaimed, "Rest here in the night; in the dawn of happiness the God of mercy will deliver thee; if not, I will be thy redeemer". The same aggadah adds that at the death of Meir smoke ceased to issue from Elisha's grave.

Jacob Gordin's play Elisha Ben Abuyah
Jacob Gordin wrote a Yiddish play, Elisha Ben Abuyah (1906); it was performed unsuccessfully in New York City during Gordin's lifetime, and more successfully in numerous productions after his death; the title role was written for Jacob Adler, the only actor ever to play it. In the 1911 production after Gordin's death, the fallen woman Beata was played by Adler's wife Sara, Ben Abuyah's faithful friend Toivye Avyoini was played by Sigmund Mogulesko, and his daughter (who, in the play, runs away with a Roman soldier) by the Adlers' daughter Frances; in some of the last performances of the play, toward the end of Jacob Adler's career, the daughter was played by Frances's younger, and eventually more famous, sister Stella.

Gordin's Ben Abuyah is clearly a surrogate for Gordin himself, and to some extent for Adler: an unbeliever, but one who thinks of himself, unalterably, as a Jew, and who rejects Christianity even more firmly than Judaism, a man who behaves ethically and who dies haunted by a vision of "terrible Jewish suffering", condemned by the rabbis generally, but lauded as a great Jew by his disciple Rabbi Meir.

Milton Steinberg's novel, As A Driven Leaf
Conservative Rabbi Milton Steinberg fictionalized the life of Elisha ben Abuyah in his controversial 1939 novel, As A Driven Leaf. Steinberg's novel wrestles with the 2nd century Jewish struggle to reconcile Rabbinic Judaism both culturally and philosophically with Greek Hellenistic society. In Elisha's struggle, Steinberg speculates about questions and events that may have driven such a man to apostasy, and addresses questions of Jewish self-determination in the Roman Empire, the Bar Kochba Revolt (132-135), and above all the interdependence of reason and faith. Although the novel draws on Talmudic tradition to create the framework for Elisha's life, Steinberg himself wrote that his novel "springs from historical data without any effort at rigid conformity or literal confinement to them."

Shimon Ballas' novel, Outcast
Iraqi-Israeli author Shimon Ballas' novel Outcast, published in English in 2007, features an Elisha-like character. Outcast is narrated by Haroun Soussan, a Jewish convert to Islam. For Iraq, he left Judaism, embraced Islam, and fought Zionism as the nonpareil, ethnocentrist threat to his dreams. He has lost his closest friends because of politics, particularly Assad Nissim, a principled Iraqi Jew forced to depart for Israel. Despite everything Soussan believes and has done, however, what he was is not forgotten, and he feels an outcast not merely from the Jews and the West but within his homeland. Based on a historical figure, Ahmad (Nissim) Soussan's work ended up being used as anti-Jewish propaganda during the era of Saddam Hussein. Commenting on the use of Soussan's writing on Judaism by propagandists, his friend Assad Nissim likens him to Elisha Ben Abuya, or the one they called Aher, the Outcast. In Hebrew, the title of the book is V'Hu Aher, which means And He is an Other or And He is a Different One.

In Edward M. Erdelac's series, Merkabah Rider
Elisha is revealed to be the main antagonist of the series, a mystic driven mad by the sight of the Outer God Azathoth during his explorations of the seven heavens. His cutting of the root is a literal severance of the astral tether anchoring his soul to his own body.

In Tal M. Klein's novel The Punch Escrow
The story of Elisha's transformation into Aher is contrasted with the story of Job as an allegory for how the protagonist should bear with his current circumstances. A parallel is also drawn between his occupation of training artificially intelligent software agents and how asking difficult questions lead to Elisha's exile.

title: Elisha ben Abuyah


text:
User talk:Teflon Don

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!  Hut   8.5   18:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
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You're reading too much into it - it's just something that's used to greet new users. I spotted you editing some article or other and gave it to you, I haven't noticed any problems with your conduct!  Hut   8.5   15:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Chat
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Thank you for your understanding and happy editing :) Editing on behalf of User:Jarry1250, LivingBot (talk) 19:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Teflon Don


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pictures of Annie

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 17:13, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Pictures of Annie
Notability not established. The don't seem to live up to Wikiproject:Music's guidelines. Preisler 06:15, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete. No allmusic.com entry. Gamaliel 06:17, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, no album has been relseased yet, and unless the anon that wrote this was Dane Jackson, then its a copyvio too--nixie 06:32, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable. The copyvio issue can't be handled by VfD. Carrp | Talk 06:34, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Band promo. Wile E. Heresiarch 06:43, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, non notable, promo. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:44, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


text:
User talk:Phiddlestyx

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Welcome, newcomer!

Here are some useful tips to ease you into the Wikipedia experience:

 * First, take a look at the Wikipedia Tutorial, and perhaps dabble a bit in the test area.
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title: User talk:Phiddlestyx


text:
Vladimir de Pachmann

Vladimir de Pachmann or Pachman (27 July 1848 – 6 January 1933) was a pianist from the Russian Empire of German ethnicity, especially noted for performing the works of Chopin and for his eccentric performing style.

Biography
Pachmann was born in Odesa, Russian Empire as Vladimir Pachmann. The von or later de as a nobiliary particle was most probably added to his name by himself. Three of his brothers serving as officers in the Imperial Russian Army did not use the particle.

His father was a professor at the University of Odesa and a celebrated amateur violinist who had met Beethoven, Weber and other notable composers in Vienna. He was his son's only teacher until he turned 18, at which time he went to Vienna to study music at the Vienna Conservatory, studying piano with Josef Dachs (a pupil of Carl Czerny) and theory with Anton Bruckner. He gained the Conservatory's Gold Medal and made his concert debut in Odesa in 1869, but until 1882 he appeared in public infrequently, spending his time in further study. He then toured throughout Europe and the United States, and was acclaimed as a top player of his era. His programmes consisted almost exclusively of the works of Chopin, with only an occasional movement by Bach, Scarlatti, Mendelssohn or Henselt.

In Denmark he was appointed a Knight of the Order of the Dannebrog.

For 18 years, from 1890-1908, he toured across the United States beginning and ending in New York, while also promoting the Chickering Piano.

Pachmann was one of the earliest performers to make recordings of his work, beginning in 1906 with recordings for the Welte-Mignon reproducing piano and in 1907 for the gramophone.

He was also famous for gestures, muttering and addressing the audience during his performance; the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition characterized it as the "playfulness of his platform manner". Critic James Huneker called him the "Chopinzee", and George Bernard Shaw reported that he "gave his well-known pantomimic performance, with accompaniments by Chopin."

In April 1884 Pachmann married the Australian-born British pianist Maggie Okey (Annie Louisa Margaret Okey, 1865–1952), who was later known as Marguerite de Pachmann. They did concert tours of Europe together and had three sons – Victor, who died in infancy, Adriano and Leonide (called Lionel). The marriage ended after seven years.

Vladimir de Pachmann died in Rome in 1933, aged 84.

Recordings

 * Piano Rolls
 * The Welte-Mignon mystery, 4. Dead or alive. Stuttgart: Tacet, 2006.

title: Vladimir de Pachmann


text:
Electric form factor

The electric form factor is the Fourier transform of electric charge distribution in a nucleon. Nucleons (protons and neutrons) are made of up and down quarks which have charges associated with them (2/3 & -1/3, respectively). The study of Form Factors falls within the regime of Perturbative QCD.

The idea originated from young William Thomson.

title: Electric form factor


text:
Volvo Masters

The Volvo Masters was the concluding official money event of the European Tour season until 2009, when it was replaced by the Dubai World Championship. The event was founded in 1988 and held at Valderrama Golf Club in Andalusia, Spain, except for a five-year period between 1997 and 2001 when Montecastillo Golf Club played host to the tournament.

The tournament reverted to its original name of "Volvo Masters" in 2005, having been known as the "Volvo Masters Andalucia" between 2000 and 2003 for sponsorship reasons. The prize money for the inaugural event was £351,690, and by 2008, this had increased to over €4 million, making it one of the richest events on the tour. The field consists of the top 60 leading money winners on the European Tour, and from 2005, an invitation has also been issued to the previous years winner regardless of their standing on the money list.

Prior to 2007, the Volvo Masters was held one week before The Tour Championship to allow golfers who are members of both the European and PGA Tours to participate, but this changed after the PGA Tour rescheduled their event to mid-September.

Following a one-year absence from the calendar, Valderama returned to the European Tour schedule in 2010 with the Andalucía Valderrama Masters under the sponsorship of Turismo Andaluz (Andalucia Government Tourism Organization).

title: Volvo Masters


text:
Magnetic form factor

In electromagnetism, a magnetic form factor is the Fourier transform of an electric charge distribution in space.

title: Magnetic form factor


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Good morning west tennessee

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. --Rhobite 21:48, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Good morning west tennessee
One of hundreds of local morning shows; non-notable. Szyslak 06:20, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I live in Tennessee, and I haven't even heard of this. Delete. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:24, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, the channel is probably notable, this show is not --nixie 06:30, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, promo. Megan1967 06:44, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * This is a notable show on WBBJ in Jackson, TN, and I noticed that three of you don't even live in Tennessee, one lives in California, and the other two live in Australia, so who are you to say the show doesn't exist? To prove that the show is legit, go to www.wbbjtv.com and click on gmwt
 * This comment by user 65.7.40.62. Andrewa 14:06, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Never said it doesn't exist, it's just not notable. Szyslak 08:05, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not notable. Created by a vandal. -R. fiend 08:02, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * What do you mean it was created by a vandal? What's that mean? Because I am definitely not a vandal. It could be the people that I share my computer with. I guess I need to sign up and get a user name to avoid confusion.
 * This comment also by user 65.7.40.62. Andrewa 14:11, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I may give you the benefit of the doubt this time. Though looking at the timing of the edits I'm inclined not to. -R. fiend 09:04, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * By the way, Megan1967, I understand that someone had vandalized your profile page. I am truly sorry for this and I will try to make sure whoever did it doesn't do it again.
 * This comment also by user 65.7.40.62. Andrewa 14:20, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is already mentioned on the (incorrectly named) Wbbj article, which has all the info needed. Redirect if you're feeling really charitable. Local stations get articles, local news programmes which are only broadcast on that station do not. Average Earthman 13:10, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, being bold, I've moved the station article to WBBJ. Average Earthman 13:15, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Local radio stations have morning shows.  So? --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 19:06, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete. Not notable. Jayjg (talk) 17:04, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep Goodness! Why do we persist in saying that just because something isn't incredibly well known, there shouldn't be information about it here? Are we out of hard drive space? Zantastik 21:54, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * No, but we're going for quality of articles rather than quantity. Delete. Radiant! 12:24, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
User talk:Snapcore

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Welcome, newcomer!

Here are some useful tips to ease you into the Wikipedia experience:

 * First, take a look at the Wikipedia Tutorial, and perhaps dabble a bit in the test area.
 * When you have some free time, take a look at the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines. They can come in very handy!
 * Remember to use a neutral point of view!
 * If you need any help, feel free to post a question at the Help Desk
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Also, here are some odds and ends that I find useful from time to time:

 * Policy Library
 * Utilities
 * Cite your sources
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 * Wikiquette
 * Civility
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Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can most easily reach me by posting on my talk page.

You can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~~~~.

Best of luck, and have fun!

ClockworkSoul 06:22, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Snapcore


text:
Talk:Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven)

High bassoon/horn line near end of 1st movement (re horns in Eb)
The line near the end of the 1st movement, at the beginning of the C major modulation, was scored in the upper register of the bassoon because it lay outside the natural open harmonic series of the Eb horn crook. However it is very possible to play this on a natural horn in Eb. The concert C would be written as A for the horns and can be played by partly shading the bell on the 7th partial, and it would have only modest effects on the tone color. The D (written B natural) would be the only really troublesome note, as it requires the hand to cover the 8th partial much more completely and would make the tone very muted, especially when playing forte. Beethoven actually uses this very note on the Eb crook in the famous horn solo from the 3rd movement of the 9th symphony, though it is at a much softer volume level where stopped and covered notes can be managed more easily.

I suspect that Beethoven might have considered having the Eb horns play this line with the bassoons doubling so as to provide some support on the hand-stopped notes. But in the end he chose to omit the horn part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Comrade Sephiroth (talk • contribs) 04:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for this helpful perspective! 31.185.169.45 (talk) 18:00, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I was listening to the Simon Rattle recording that's referenced in the article (at least I think I have the recording right) and the bassoons don't play the passage shown, unless I'm listening at the wrong place, but I'm pretty sure I am. Aaron Bruce ( talk ) 02:33, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I always wondered why the written A is actually not often called for in classical symphonic horn parts. After all, the written high F was easily gotten through shading the 11th partial, and the written A comes from shading the 7th instead. It would certainly make minor-key works a lot easier: ask for the crook of the relative major! And yet, it just doesn't happen that often. I hope the first example is not actually Schubert's Unfinished (in B minor, but the first movement asks for horns in D), even though I can't remember any before it. Double sharp (talk) 09:14, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Ref. 23 is defunct external link
Thanks. uriel8  (talk)  20:43, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

BBC WWII broadcasts to Europe, Morse Code
Whether mistaken, co-incidental or not, it is beyond discussion that many people will look to this article to find out the connection with Morse Code and with the BBC WWII broadcasts to Europe - see various mentions in the "Talk" above.

It is therefore essential for Wikipedia's credibility that Wikipedia mentions both in this article. RobinClay (talk) 21:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

 * It is equally essential for Wikipedia's credibility that reliable sources are provided to support these facts. The mention of Morse code was removed by another editor because (according to the edit summary) it contained a factual error regarding who devised the code. When I checked the cited source, I found that practically nothing else in the claim was supported by it. All that is required when a "ciation needed" tag is placed on such a claim, is to find and add a supporting reliable source. No reason to get all aeriated.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:12, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

 * You are too cavalier by half. I had made several changes, and added more references, which you ignored when you so rudely simply reverted the text without explanation.   And, No, I have made more changes.  The Morse Code aspect is still relevant - it is actually the reason I came to this page in the first place.  Had the page been as I have just left it, there would have been no need for me to look further. RobinClay (talk) 22:06, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

 * So far, the only "references" I have seen added are an external linking back to the English Wikipedia article on Morse code, and a parenthetical remark (relegated to a footnote, which does not make it a reference) concerning who actually devised Morse code. The reference that has now been in place for quite a long time is fine, as far as it goes. It establishes that the BBC started using this signal during World War II (in fact, they continued using it through at least the end of the 1960s, but that is not important here), that the version they used was played on "drums" (type unspecified), and that the rhythm was meant to be interpreted (by the BBC and not Beethoven, of course) as Morse code for the letter "V". Adding claims beyond what this source verifies requires the addition of further reliable sources, excepting only statements along the line of "the sky is blue". There is nothing wrong with adding such statements provisionally, in the expectation that a source eventually will be found, but do not be surprised if these get tagged with a "citation needed" template. In fact, I find it prudent to add such a tag myself, when inserting claims I know to be verifiable, even though I don't happen to have the source immediately to hand. The problem I am seeing here is the addition of a claim with an attached putative source, which proves not to be a reliable one, according to the Wikipedia guidelines. Oh, yes: I did not revert your edits without explanation. I think if you will consult my edit summaries in each case, you will find the explanation for my reversions there.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:13, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

No mention of famous transition
The article states simply that the finale "begins without interruption after the scherzo." There is no mention of the transition passage, surely one of the most gripping and effective things in Beethoven's music and, at the time, something totally new. It certainly had its effect on audiences then and still does today. Shouldn't this be mentioned? Opus131 (talk) 00:03, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150609154217/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paqj1Nz_2g4 to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paqj1Nz_2g4
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20050831060244/http://www.symphony5.com:80/en/sn5.htm to http://www.symphony5.com/en/sn5.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 04:56, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Second Movement, Third Theme?
I'm puzzled by the mention in the article of a "third theme" in the second movement, consisting of "thirty-second notes in the violas and cellos with a counterphrase running in the flute, oboe, and bassoon". As near as I can tell, this is referring to the passage with 3nd notes in the violas and cellos, held notes in the winds, and pizzicato accompaniment in the violins and basses (on page 22 of the Dover edition of the full score). However, this is very clearly a variation on the first theme; I don't detect any new thematic material here, and indeed it would be rather odd if there were a third theme in this set of double variations. Unless there's something obvious that I'm missing, I think this comment should be removed. Aiwendil42 (talk) 02:25, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Admittedly an odd statement, but it does appear to be referenced to Scherman & Louis' The Beethoven Companion. If the source actually says this, it could be quoted directly, in order to avoid any future question. If it does not, then of course the statement should be removed.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:28, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

An example of overreaching in citation requests
Under "Fourth movement: Allegro," in a discussion of the similarity between the interruption in this movement and a similar piece in Haydn's Symphony No. 46, we see this charming little sentence and its accompanying request:

It is unknown whether Beethoven was familiar with this work or not.[citation needed]

Are you kidding? It's hard enough to cite some references for positive things...to cite an unknown is to ask for the impossible. One could put scholarly reference after scholarly reference to say "I don't know whether he was familiar with Haydn's 46th symphony," "He never mentioned Haydn's 46th symphony in his writings," or "I never heard any student of Beethoven's music say whether he had ever heard Haydn's 46th symphony," and it still would not do any more to cite whether Beethoven was familiar with Haydn's Symphony No. 46 than simply to state it.

Should, at some later date, someone say something like "Beethoven went to performances of Haydn's 46th all the time," "Beethoven conducted Haydn's 46th on Nowonder 32, 1808," or "Beethoven loved Haydn's 46th so much that he wrote a piano reduction of it and played it every night before he went to bed," then THAT would merit a "citation needed." But it is not only unfeasible but patently ridiculous to request a citation of something that is an unknown. This insertion exists, according to Wikipedia's template page, to question an uncited claim--but this is not an uncited claim, it is simply a statement that no claim is being made--no claim that Beethoven was, or was not, familiar with this earlier work, that it is simply an unknown.

This request for a citation should be removed, and we should all take a lesson from its having been here in the first place. 108.231.42.28 (talk) 19:27, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * And yet I managed to find one after looking for a few seconds: James Webster, Haydn's 'Farewell' Symphony and the Idea of Classical Style, p. 267. "No comparable stroke was heard again until Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 (presumably an independent inspiration; Haydn's symphony did not circulate widely, and there is no evidence that Beethoven knew it." And yes, a citation is absolutely required, as the statement could conceivably be false (what if, hypothetically, it was only put there because the original writer did not know of such an influence, when one existed?) There are indeed lessons to be taken here, but I doubt they are the ones you thought of. Double sharp (talk) 06:10, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

"The music resounds in C major, an unusual choice by the composer as a symphony that begins in C minor is expected to finish in that key"
Despite this being sourced, it strikes me as being nonsense. What of Haydn's 78th or 95th, which both start in C minor and end in C major? Double sharp (talk) 06:01, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, there is a lot of nonsense about, even under the restriction of requiring reliable sources. What is needed in this case is an equally reliable source that refutes this claim.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:16, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It would not be the first time that a musicologist overlooked the fact that Haydn did everything before everyone else! Syek88 (talk) 23:16, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Indeed not. Nor have musicologists always been innocent of forgetting that even Haydn had predecessors.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:21, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Alas indeed, I shall have to go looking. It would be very nice if there was a source that had a list of minor-key Classical symphonies categorised by whether or not they ended in the parallel major. Double sharp (talk) 14:46, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Fourth movement quote?
The following un-cited remark occurs in the "Development" subsection...

"The final movement quotes from a revolutionary song by Claude Joseph Rouget de Lisle."

... but is not mentioned in section about the fourth movement.

Is this real? The article on de Lisle makes no mention of it either.

--23.119.204.117 (talk) 01:13, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Coda of the finale
Why does the score for the coda of the finale have a common-time signature on this page? Whoever did has clearly not looked at any score for the symphony, because if they did, they would notice that it is written in CUT TIME, NOT COMMON TIME! Seriously, how lazy and idiotic can some of us get?! MoonMan2 (talk 03:51, 14 September 2018 (UTC) MoonMan2 (talk) 19:51, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

 * I'd bemoan if I were an idiot, but in no case I am one of yours. Purgy Purgatorio 09:39, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
 * MoomMan2, however strongly you feel, there is really no need for a comment like the one above. I think you should rapidly adjust that remark and also apologise to User:Purgy Purgatorio. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:55, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, Purgy Purgatorio, I am sorry for calling you an idiot the first time; I shouldn’t have been as harsh as I was, plus I didn’t know what “afaik” meant (I do now). I was really just annoyed that the score for the coda had a 4/4 signature and not a 2/2 like it does in other scores, and just felt as if I needed to bring the issue up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MoonMan2 (talk • contribs) 10:09, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

"Schicksals-Sinfonie"
The third paragraph says that the symphony "was given" the nickname "Schicksals-Sinfonie," putting it in the same nickname-bearing category as the 3rd and 5th. This is incorrect. The "Eroica" and "Pastorale" nicknames were assigned by the composer, whereas any nicknames for the 5th were made up by publishers, critics, etc. The nickname "Schicksals-Sinfonie" is no more a proper part of the 5th than is Walter Murphy's disco version. 134.173.81.150 (talk) 18:45, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Trivial question about capitalization
Quick question, why are some of the instruments capitalized in the Instrumentation section while others are not? GeneralPoxter (talk) 23:59, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing this out. I've removed the unnecessary capitalisations. Tayste (edits) 01:12, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I suppose the rationale was that if a word starts a list element, it should be capitalized. This is a possible interpretation of MOS:LISTCAPS. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:01, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven)