text:
Talk:Beloved (novel)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2019 and 8 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Samanthadies.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Not very detailed analysis
What is there on Beloved is simple not avery detailed, or in places good, analysis. Many key points needed to understand the work are missing, and some information is misleading - for example the sentence that Sethe does not bother with her ther children anymore is simply wrong, as only Denver is still in the house anyway. Otherwise, some characters as her two sons are negleted completly. Please someone, sort this out!
 * I will add an analysis that is more in depth with the support of prior authors and sources, to this article. I plan to find some critiques and analysis done by other author's to support my insight followed by referencing them so others can find this information. There will be some key points made as I plan to retread this work and write about it with support from other scholastic sources that have been peer reviewed, my analysis will be cited so others can go and read as well. Jnaeagbenla (talk) 00:52, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Beloved's status
An anon editor just changed the part about Beloved being Sethe's daughter to "it remains vague whether" Beloved is Sethe's daughter. I reverted it; I thought it was quite clear who Beloved was, to Sethe, to Denver, to Paul, and to the folks who come and perform the exorcism. | Klaw ¡digame! It might be clear to them, but it is never said outright. Wikipedia is not about conjecture, but plausible theories can be presented (i think) as long as it is clear they are theories.

I agree, Beloved's status is very ambiguous throughout. Although there are suggestions she is Sethe's daughter, there are also vague references to the character being stolen by white men and placed on a cramped slave ship (which Sethe's dead child never experienced, having lived and died on American soil). --131.111.247.135 (talk) 19:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree as well. I just read that "Denver immediately recognizes the young woman as the reincarnation of her dead sister" and "Sethe discovers that Beloved is indeed pregnant with Paul D's child"... both statements are blatantly false. They are alluded to or hinted at in the novel, but because Morrison never presents them as fact, we can't just assume them to be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.6.109.5 (talk) 21:37, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I have made significant changes to the plot summary that attempt to show both possibilities without preference for either. L.cash.m (talk) 18:49, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Nobel prize?
It mention's Beloved as a pulitzer prize winner - I was under the impression that Toni Morrisson had received a nobel prize in literature for Beloved. My edition certainly mentions the nobel prize on the cover.

 * Morrison won the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1993, six years after Beloved was published. The official Nobel website states that she was a recipient because she is one "who in novels characterized by visionary force and poetic import, gives life to an essential aspect of American reality;"  so Beloved is one of the many reasons she was honored, but not the only reason.  The Nobel prize recognizes an author's full body of work, not just one piece of it. Maria 14:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

 * "Beloved" itself won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in 1988. http://www.pulitzer.org/ (click on 1988). Anrie 14:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds too much like a notes site
This page sounds too much like SparkNotes or some other similar source. Perhaps the section on themes should be removed and instead have a synopsis of the book, with references to notes sites rather than using this page as an analysis of major themes. This page also could use more citations. Just a thought 24.31.111.166 05:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, there is a definitive lack of addressing the complexity of the narrative scope-- such as addressing the interweaving sequences of "real time" and flashbacks or memories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.164.212.53 (talk) 19:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I think the list of characters lends itself to read more as a notes source. Instead of spending the vast majority of the space on character description, it could be helpful to reduce that section and create a more thorough plot summary. Samanthadies (talk) 20:13, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

pronunciation
Is the second e in Beloved in this case mute or not? --128.176.233.115 18:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

> Sethe (pronounced "Seth-uh")

Would that be ['seθə]? --128.176.233.115 10:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I believed the seconde "e" in "Beloved" is voiced, as it is from the phrase "Dearly Beloved" (from which Beloved got her name). I'm not sure about the pronunciation of "Sethe": it is mentioned in the book that it is a man's name, so it could very well be pronounced like the modern "Seth". Anrie 14:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

The mother of Sethe is shown calling her "Seth-uh"; however, it is possible Sethe's mother is a native african, and the resulting "uh" is just a result of an accent.

Toni Morrison also put out a book on CD featuring herself reading Beloved. According to that edition, the second "e" in "Sethe" is pronounced, as is the second "e" in "Beloved." --Jll294 01:12, 30 March 2010.

Plot summary
wow, that needs work! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.237.90.163 (talk) 16:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This plot summary implies several interpretations which aren't explicit in the novel at all - Beloved putting a spell on Paul D and Howard/Buglar running away because of a fear of their mother [not a fear of the ghost], for example. 17/05/09, Dan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.234.4.1 (talk) 12:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Significant edits done today that attempt to resolve issues. L.cash.m (talk) 18:49, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello, I think Instead of having one big chunk of text on this article under the "Plot" section, I plan to break it up and make the plot summary into this timeline of major events and how it relates to overarching themes. I think that the plot can be significantly strengthened by having some strong references and also taking into account all major events in the frame of this big time line that talks about major events as the novel begins and how it continues on this exposition through until the end. This is what I am going to work on then so that this page has relevant but supported references for other people that need information about the plot. Jnaeagbenla (talk) 00:34, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Toni Morrison On World Book Club
A chance to ask questions to improve this article! On Monday 27th October 2008, Toni Morrison will be talking about Beloved on the BBC radio programme World Book Club. If you're in the UK, you can be part of the audience at a London venue to be confirmed (recording will start at 16.00 hours). If you cannot attend, but would still like to put a question to Toni Morrison about Beloved, email worldbookclub@bbc.co.uk (until 21th October). EdQuine (talk) 21:24, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

mossy teeth?
Hey guys, I have to read Beloved for English class, and I was wondering what the significance of the "mossy teeth" is? Is it a disease of the boys who have it, or does it allude to something else? My English teacher thinks it's pretty important, but doesn't remember what it signifies off the top of her head. Thanks- Kanogul (talk) 03:37, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it just means that they have poor dental hygiene (and I suppose you could draw more conclusions from that). I remember the term being used in The Catcher in the Rye to describe a boy's teeth looked. TakaraLioness (talk) 15:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Pregnant Beloved
the plot summary also failed to mention that beloved was pregnant with Paul D's baby towards the end when sethe refused to eat,and when the townsfolk came to perform an exorcism —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deman531 (talk • contribs) 00:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Where is this within the novel? There was no mention of Beloved's pregnancy either in the work nor in graduate level class discussions of the work that support that concept that I am aware of. If you can provide page numbers or significant quotes from the novel that provide proof, I'll add it. L.cash.m (talk) 18:49, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

On page 308 of my edition (Vintage), when the women approach Sethe's house to confront Beloved: "The devil child was clever, they thought. And beautiful. It had taken the shape of a pregnant woman." Earlier on, her stomach is described as looking like a watermelon. 4 October 2014.

awful
This is a terrible plot summary. It needs a lot of work in all aspects. A B rated article needs more attention than this. Dirtbike spaceman (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC).

Just to start us off down the long road of recovery I went a head and corrected all the misspelled words.Dirtbike spaceman (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC).

Additional edits done today for clarity. L.cash.m (talk) 18:49, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Beyond the Plot Summary
The major themes section is poorly done -- there is no notation for how "mother-daughter relationships" and "psychological impact of slavery" are listed as the major theme. Also, this page could benefit from a "critical response" section. L.cash.m (talk) 03:42, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Very weak article
Beloved is a much more powerful novel than this article makes it out to be. It's a masterpiece of literature, and the themes go way beyond the two that are listed. You could write a freaking essay on the last two pages alone! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.245.66 (talk) 22:53, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I plan to go back through Toni Morrison's novel Beloved and comb through to find major overarching themes that are very relevant for this piece. I agree this article is so weak for such a significant piece of literature therefore I am doing a project to help enhance the details that have been added to this article. This article can be really improved by instead of having one big chunk of text on this article under the "Plot" section, I plan to break it up and make the plot summary into this timeline of major events and how it relates to overarching themes. I am also adding a section about the characters that relates to the themes and how they show the themes through major events within the novel. Jnaeagbenla (talk) 00:47, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Recent revert of large-scale changes
I reverted the mass edits back because they are WP:Original research (specifically WP:SYN) and thus violate a neutral point of view, even though they include citations. It should also be noted that the additions were not all properly placed. This is why I used "revert" to reinstate the previous version of the page. Icarus of old (talk) 04:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Newer Sources
I noticed that a lot of the sources used to discuss the novel's major themes as well as sources for the analysis of the novel in the Legacy section were originally published in the 1990s or earlier. I believe the article would benefit from the inclusion of information from more contemporary scholarly journals/articles about the book as well as from more information regarding the situations in which the book has been banned or challenged in public schools and libraries. More information about the counterarguments raised whenever the book is banned would be particularly helpful. There are also some parts of the Major Themes section that seem to lack sources and I am unsure whether certain paragraphs of that section constitute original research, but I think the section should be better cited regardless. SebastianG1002 (talk) 03:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Beloved (novel)


text:
Talk:Duncan Ball

What The?
--203.217.78.87 07:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This article makes no sense, the dates given are all exagerated as well as the facts. This article is a joke!

 * The article was vandalized. It has been repaired. Joyous! | Talk 03:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Yes, I did not realise that this article had been vandalised but:
 * I have created three articles and re-added the links
 * Duncan DOES live on corner John & Clair Streets

Expansion Request
Duncan Ball - an Australian author, the article is beyond a stub but needs quite a bit of expansion-perhaps a bit of background on each book —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aicchalmers (talk • contribs) 10:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Duncan Ball


text:
Henri Buisson

Henri Buisson (1873–1944) was a French physicist. Buisson and Charles Fabry discovered the ozone layer in 1913.

Buisson was born on 15 July 1873 in Paris and died on 6 January 1944 in Marseille, at age 70.

title: Henri Buisson


text:
Standing Peachtree

Standing Peachtree was a Muscogee village and the closest Indian settlement to what is now the Buckhead area of Atlanta, Georgia. It was located where Peachtree Creek flows into the Chattahoochee River, in today's Paces neighborhood. It was located in the borderlands of the Cherokee and Muscogee nations. It is referred to in several documents dating as far back as 1782.

Etymology
Standing Peachtree's name is an accurate preservation of its native Muscogee Indian name, Pakanahuili.

Some sources claim that "peachtree" is a corruption of "pitch tree", a supposed reference to pine trees from which pitch could be obtained. However, there is no evidence for the "pitch tree" name from before the 20th century, while "Standing Peachtree" can be traced back to the 18th century.

Peachtree Street
Standing Peachtree was the end of the Muscogee Peachtree Trail, which ran from near Toccoa to just south of what is now Piedmont Hospital in Buckhead. (A marker now stands there at the corner of Peachtree St. and Palisades Rd.) At this junction the path split. One branch went to Standing Peachtree (Pace's Ferry and Moore's Mill roads were built along this path). The other branch ran southwards towards what is now Five Points in Downtown Atlanta. Thus, much of Atlanta's main street, Peachtree Street follows the earlier Indian path.

Fort Peachtree
Fort Peachtree was built here in 1812. Later known as Fort Gilmer, it was connected to Fort Daniel at Hog Mountain in what is now Gwinnett County, by a path which came to be known as Old Peachtree Road. The Muskogee ceded the land that is now Metro Atlanta in 1821 as part of a series of coerced treaties that systematically removed tribal nations from Georgia. Standing Peachtree thus ceased its role as tribal trading post. It was established as the first post office in the newly established DeKalb County, preceding Decatur (the area would later become part of Fulton County). Montgomery's Ferry (later DeFoor's Ferry) across the river opened at Standing Peachtree in 1837 and the area soon became better known by that name. The post office closed in 1842.

title: Standing Peachtree


text:
Category:Reality show winners

Category for winners of competitive reality TV series.

title: Category:Reality show winners


text:
USE

USE or U.S.E. may refer to:
 * United States of Europe, hypothetical scenario of a single sovereign country in Europe
 * United State of Electronica, an American rock band
 * U.S.E. (album), by United State of Electronica
 * Uganda Securities Exchange, the principal stock exchange in Uganda
 * USE Method, a systems performance methodology by Brendan Gregg
 * Union State of Eurasia, an intergovernmental organisation in Europe and Asia
 * Unified State Exam, a series of university entrance exams in Russia

title: USE


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carminum liber primus

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was keep -- AllyUnion (talk) 09:42, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Carminum liber primus
These are the first verses in Latin of the Horace book Ode IV. (see : )

Unless the editor wants to give an encyclopedic discussion of this book or of all of the Odes, these lines must be considered non-encyclopedic. JoJan 19:52, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete unless it turns into some kind of article. Kappa 20:49, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) Keep, poem by notable author; thank you Arcadian Kappa 17:45, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, article as it stands is un-encyclopaedic. Megan1967 23:41, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment the intial article was terrible, but it looks like this is a pretty important poem, so I did a little Googling and added some detail. It might now be close to stubworthy (though I'll abstain from the vote). We might want to consider creating a common article for the secondus and tertius. --Arcadian 15:30, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. a second thanks to Arcadian Courtland 02:43, 2005 Feb 13 (UTC)
 * I withdraw my request for Vfd. I'm glad that the article now has been expanded. Horace, Virgil and Ovid are among the greatest poets that ever lived on this planet. But I'm sure a lot more can be said about the Odes. In my opinion, this article isn't finished yet. JoJan 09:37, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Code Blue (emergency code)

Accuracy in this passage
If you are going to edit this entry, please know what you are writing about. As an ACLS instructor and a practicing field paramedic, the previous versions of this were incorrect in many areas.

Sincerely,

Jesse

 * Jesse -- thanks for the clean-up! that's what wikipedia is all about; finding people with the technical knowledge to write good articles on everything. One way to attempt to ensure correct articles is to present verifiable information; that is, give sources for the knowledge that other people can verify, e.g., online manuals, etc. -- it's hard to verify what someone might have learned in an ACLS course. Perhaps you could put in a few references to texts or other materials you use in your class to help with this article? Again, thanks for the contribution -- I'm sure you'll see a lot of pages on wikipedia that you can help fix up. (PS: if you register an account, folks can leave you notes on your user talk page, and it's easier to track your contributions, etc., etc.) -- Metahacker 03:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

--Hello all, My mother recently coded and it was my understanding that at no point did her heart stop. She needed no cardiovascular support. By the definition you've provided this would not be a code blue. I think you have erroneously defined code blue. From my understanding it would be a signal in a hospital to show that a patient who was not in danger of death is now in danger of death without immediate support. Her code was that she stopped being able to breathe on her own, I imagine this would have eventually stopped her heart, but that it never did.

title: Talk:Code Blue (emergency code)


text:
Talk:BRIC

Whether to merge BRIC, BRICS, G5 articles
I say no. They are different terms with different meanings and have been in use in mutually exclusive ways at different times. It is appropriate to refer to the other terms in each article or to consider them disambiguations of a higher level article on country grouping for various purposes.

71.110.202.44 (talk) 20:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

No
The articles are fine by themselves. People will be more confused if they are merged together.

 * I believe BRIC and BRICS should be merged, but the G5 are related but not the same. Viller the Great (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Thesis has too much text
I don't have time to edit this myself at the moment. I just want to highlight that the text about Goldman Sachs in the Thesis chapter is doubled. The bit starting from "Goldman Sachs argues that the economic..." is esentially copied at "Goldman Sachs has argued that..." in section 5 of the same chapter. Skrofler (talk) 09:14, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Projected GDP (nominal) 2025 and 2050
Merely a query over the projected GDP tables for 2025 & 2050: Australia features as the 14th largest economy by nominal GDP in 2008, yet fails to feature in the top 22 in both 2025 and 2050. I am curious what the basis of the reasoning behind this is. Even if Australia was to maintain the same nominal GDP from 2008 into 2025, which is unlikely in that it would more likely grow, it would still feature as number 19 (?) in the 2025 nominal GDP table ahead of Bangladesh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.185.248.131 (talk) 03:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, sorry Im not used to edit wikipedia sites. I jsut wanted to say that the quote for the prediction that the BRIC countries will surpass the G7 in 2032 can be found in page 138 of: Goldman Sachs (2007), ‘BRICs and beyond’, Goldman Sachs Global Economics Group http://www2.goldmansachs.com/ideas/brics/book/BRIC-Full.pdf

Cheers, Emile le reveil (talk) 13:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC) hey i have put a better piture of mumbai, why are you taking it off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.64.87 (talk) 23:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The year of concept birth (moved from top of page)
The article says that the term BRIC was first coined by Goldman Sachs in 2001. However, the article links to the report of 2003. Is it a misprint or the term did really appear in 2001 but in a different document? GS website also does not provide anything earlier than 2003.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Acvec (talk • contribs) 19:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Should "brick" rederect from here?
I type in brick trying to get information on bricks as in the building product and it goes to this very obscure subject —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.45.110.206 (talk) 22:46, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

GDP Nominal Graph Issue
The caption reads top 5 countries in terms of GDP Nominal by 2050. However the data lists Mexico as number 5 by 2050 over Russia which is placed 6th. Micro360 (talk) 22:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

"they decided to exclude initially because they looked..."
This sentence is stated in the article in three different places. I have removed the two first ones. The last one, found in the Mexico sub-entry -- where it is more fitting -- is still there.189.118.199.29 (talk) 00:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Navbox consensus
There are plausible reasons for modifying the navbox templates at the bottom of the page at BRIC. An opportunity for discussion needs to be part of any process which precedes change. Three arguable improvements are:

A. Combining two of the current navboxes at the bottom of the page?
 * template name should be BRIC—Template:BRIC?
 * new template would be similar to APEC—Template:Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation
 * this would mean removing BRIC countries—Template:BRIC countries?
 * this would mean removing BRIC summits—Template:BRIC summits?

B. Deleting the current leaders navbox?
 * This is a poor subject for a navbox because leaders change irregularly over time. The functional utility of this navbox is not greater or better than one which only shows member nations.
 * this would mean removing Current BRIC Leaders—Template:Current BRIC Leaders?

C. Perhaps decision-making may be helped by comparing an array of similar groups and templates?

 * 21 in group> Template:APEC?
 * Template:Current APEC Leaders?
 * 18 in groupp> Template:G-15 nations?
 * Template:Group of 15 Leaders?
 * 8 in group> Template:D8 nations?
 * 4 in group>Template:BRIC countries?
 * Template:Current BRIC Leaders?
 * Template:BRIC summits?
 * 3 in group>Template:Trilateral meeting?
 * 2 in group> Template:G-3?
 * No navboxes yet> G77•G33•G24•G10•G5
 * 3 in group>Template:Trilateral meeting?
 * 2 in group> Template:G-3?
 * No navboxes yet> G77•G33•G24•G10•G5
 * No navboxes yet> G77•G33•G24•G10•G5
 * No navboxes yet> G77•G33•G24•G10•G5

 * 20 in group> Template:G20?
 * Template:Current G20 Leaders?
 * Template:G-20 leaders' summits?
 * 9 in group> Template:G8 nations?
 * Template:Current G8 Leaders?
 * Template:G8-Foreign?
 * Template:G8-Finance?
 * Template:G8-Defense?
 * Template:G8-Justice?
 * Template:G8-Interior?
 * Template:G8 summits?
 * Template:G8-Interior?
 * Template:G8 summits?

What is the best next step for this article? for similar articles? --Tenmei (talk) 23:52, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Why is mexico, indonesia and south korea listed here?
Mexico, Indonesia and South Korea are countries included in the Next Eleven report, also by Goldman Sachs. There is hardly any description of these countries in the next eleven article. Since this is an article on BRIC countries, the rest should be moved to the 'Next Eleven' article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathaiman (talk • contribs) 17:04, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

"Mexico and South Korea were the only other countries comparable to the BRICs, but their economies were excluded initially because they were considered more developed" :i live in mexico and i watch korean dramas and i see how korea is really developed,korea look like a high developed country,but i live in mexico and here the country have some nice places but most mexico look poor,i don't see mexico much more developed than the brics,is the true.

Request of Protection
Edit semi-protected Extreme vandalism over this article by anonimous brazilian partisan who are in several places trying to bring to top its country in every ranking. kardrak (talk) 19:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not the place to request protection; the Edit semi-protected template is only for requesting edits to already- protected articles. To request protection, please see WP:RFPP. However, please note that reverting repeatedly and without discussion is not an appropriate way to solve a content dispute.  Intelligent  sium  00:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BRICI
Whoever is trying to transform this page from a BRIC page into a BRICI page, STOP. There is no such thing as BRICI. If you want to coin that term, you will be the first to do so.. so please go and make a new article if you are desperate for a BRICI article. Please stop tampering with this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.155.85.201 (talk) 22:46, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I agree. Indonesia, or whoever else has not officially joined BRICS. Viller the Great (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

BOVESPA is the second largest stock market in the world by 'market value'?
I just removed a highly dubious claim stating that BOVESPA, Brazil's main bourse, is the second largest in the world by 'market value'. This claim was cited from a Chinese state newspaper, but no sources from the World Federation of Exchanges could support such a claim. In fact, I do not even know what they mean by 'market value', since there is no such criterion to choose from when you try to get data relating to stock exchanges from the World Federation of Exchanges. Here's the link.

http://www.world-exchanges.org/statistics/ytd-monthly

The closest you could get to is market capitalization, which is probably what they meant by market value, and BOVESPA is only the world's 12th largest according to market capitalization.

Please do not add dubious claims as facts simply because it is cited from some other source. (1tephania (talk) 16:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC))

 * There's a wave of Brazilian boosterism all around Wikipedia (you should see Portuguese Wikipedia, there Brazil is a "raising superpower"). Thank God there's really committed users that check the references and remove dubious claims.  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  16:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

1tephania: BOVESPA is the second-largest stock exchange in the world by market value, behind Hong Kong and ahead of Chicago. Sources:

Alex Covarrubias: currently, the English-language Wikipedia deems Brazil a Potential superpower. I believe the attention given to Mexico and South Korea in the BRIC article is the relevant case of boosterism here. Missionary (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

 * No, Missionary, get your nationalist hands off this article. Edemir Pinto, the president of BOVESPA, is saying that BOVESPA became the second largest bourse by market capitalization ONLY on Thursday, September 24 of 2010, thanks to Petrobras' latest offering on the exchange.

 * If you actually bothered to read the article instead of blinding yourself to Brazilian boosterism, you would have read that the BOVESPA reached the market value of US$ 17.7 billion on Thursday, placing it second to the Hong Kong market. No bourse in the world can be the second largest in market value with only US$ 17.7 billion.

 * I believe I already gave the most authoritative source possible on this issue, by none other than the World Federation of Exchanges. You think some online newspapers have it more right than the World Federation of Exchanges on BOVESPA's market value? Follow the link and take a look at it.

 * http://www.world-exchanges.org/statistics/ytd-monthly

 * You try to impress us with the number of sources you can cite, but they are basically all one and the same article, just reported by different media outlets.

 * I will be closely monitoring this article from now on. If you lay another hand on that bourse issue, I will be sure to undo your change. (1tephania (talk) 07:26, 5 February 2011 (UTC))

Dear 1tephania, perhaps you failed to grasp the difference between the market value of stocks listed on a bourse and the market value of the bourse itself, the latter being what I referenced in my edit. For example, there are stocks worth $2.7 trillion listed on the Hong Kong exchange, but HKEx's market value is the largest in the world, at "just" 24 billion dollars. In other words, we're talking about the value of the stock operators, not the companies listed. Your World-exchanges.org link provides no clarification on the market value of the stock operators.

Finally, I leave you a message to Assume Good Faith over your fellow Wikipedia contributors, and most importantly, realize that, in Wikipedia, nobody has the right to act as if they are the owner of a particular article. Please, do not expect your fellow users to be cowered or intimidated by messages such as "get your hands off this article", or threats like "if you lay another hand here, then ...". This is known as a no-edit order, a proscribed and scorned practice in this collaborative project.

I will re-do my edit because I am absolutely positive it is truthful and relevant to the article. If you wish to discuss this further, please do. Missionary (talk) 22:45, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

BRICS
Someone should take the time to make this BRIC + S since South Africa was recently added to the group.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/MA04Ad02.html http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/indepth/2011-01/02/c_13674385.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.108.175.37 (talk) 13:18, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I think South Africa should definitely be included: http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-12-24-south-africa-invited-to-join-bric-group —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.242.206.23 (talk) 11:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I would like to question the neutrality of the section on south Africas admission. It starts off saying "even xyz, was confused" so it has a negative slant against south africa's inclusion rather then presenting the issue surrounding south africa's inclusion. It is pretty clear the author does not think SA should be included and they leave no room for why SA was included.--MsTingaK (talk) 15:31, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Someone should update it to include South Africa. It should be BRICS, not BRIC. 72.81.233.159 (talk) 17:10, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

 * BRIC became BRICS today. I have updated the article technically the whole body. However I think the title of the article has to be changed. Only the title of the remains to be changed. The name of the article is BRIC. This should be changed to BRICS as S has been officially instated into the abbreviation and is know by it. Someone should ask an administrator to change the title of the article itself only from BRIC to BRICS. This is the only one remaining outstanding change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.178.169.150 (talk) 14:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

 * I believe so too, so therefore BRIC and BRICS should be merged. Viller the Great (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

South Africa
South Africa should be officially added?? I mean we should wait out the next publication of Goldman Sachs and view the statistics for South Africa — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorge 2701 (talk • contribs) 19:24, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * No need, SA is officially a part of BRIC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.233.159 (talk) 17:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * BRIC became BRICS today. I have updated the article technically the whole body. However I think the title of the article has to be changed. Only the title of the remains to be changed. The name of the article is BRIC. This should be changed to BRICS as S has been officially instated into the abbreviation and is know by it. Someone should ask an administrator to change the title of the article itself only from BRIC to BRICS. This is the only one remaining outstanding change.
 * I believe so too, so therefore BRIC and BRICS should be merged. Viller the Great (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.nanothailand.org/investing/why-should-you-invest-in-brics. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. VernoWhitney (talk) 20:44, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

BRIC block voting at United Nations
Is there any possible reason to include:

 * In 2011, the BRIC countries all abstained from the United Nations security council vote that authorized military intervention in Libya. However, South Africa (the newest member of an expanded BRICS) did vote in favour. Arthur Rubin  (talk) 22:58, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This article is about BRIC, do you want to make a wp article called BRICS/BASIC countries? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.119.128.35 (talk • contribs) 23:27, March 30, 2011  Special:Contributions/99.119.128.35  99.190.84.131 (talk) 05:47, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That's irrelevant. The first sentence also has no reason to be in the article.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 09:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

BOVESPA stock exchange size
Jorge 2701, we had already discussed this on your talk page one month ago. Why remove the relevant information that BM&FBovespa, Brazil's stock exchange operator, is the third largest in the world by market value? Isn't this a relevant show of economic importance from a BRIC company (and the whole country), and appropriate to the Marketing section? Missionary (talk) 19:02, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

 * You don't need to respond me directly, I asked you to respond to the community. Of course we discussed this before and I accept my mistake but recently I saw the World Bank report of Market capitalization (also known as market value) of stock exchanges and I realized that it was a better source because it explains what is the market value, besides having data of all world stock markets, my intention is nothing more than having a Neutral point of view, and therefore I asked you to expose what are the reasons to maintain previous source but you didn´t do it, and to avoid a revert war I suggest that other users discuss about which is the best source to show, the World Bank explains what is the Market capitalization very clearly that is what the image says.--Jorge 2701 (talk) 05:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Requested move (BRIC to BRICS)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved.  Night w   21:42, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

BRIC → BRICS — South Africs is now part of the group so it should be rename. — ASDFGH =]  talk? 06:58, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * strong and obvious support was just about to ocome and propose this./ South Africa are now officially a full member and everywehere the grouping is now called BRICS. Also BRICS (disambiguation) is the redirect for BRICS, but this is by far and away the most common and obvious term (ther other option was a redlink and unsourced, thus with questionalble notability)Lihaas (talk) 13:33, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Support: Does this need an RM? I'd suggest just doing it, it seems like a non-controversial procedural change.  Night w   21:16, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It's been done by an admin.  Night w   21:44, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Goldman Sachs BRIC report vs BRIC, the organization
Goldman Sachs and the author of the report is mentioned so many times (sometimes unnecessarily) that the current article is becoming quite confusing.

The editors are requested to split this page into two different wikipedia topics - one, that analyzes and discusses the Goldman Sachs report which coined the term, and the other on the the formation and trends of BRIC the politico-economic organization.

Also, the current report only includes praise and criticism from a western point of view (and mostly based on the Goldman Sachs report). In the interest of neutrality, please analyze the newspaper reports on BRIC from the newspapers of these four countries (Brazil, Russia, China, India) for a better perspective on the political plus and minuses of this grouping. 117.205.84.62 (talk) 14:16, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Attempted to split BRIC from BRICS
See Talk:BRICS/draft for version I couldn't check in. 67.100.125.92 (talk) 19:26, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Your draft seems about right. It should be clearly noted in the lead paragraph that BRICS is a political organization and that its name derived from original Goldman Sachs' financial thesis called BRIC. We all agree that BRIC and BRICS are separate things. However, we do need to move back BRICS to BRIC because the move contains all the article history of BRIC. Then we start a new BRICS article. I'm requesting the move right now.  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  04:41, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it looks like a good start. The intro/history section is slightly confusing, though, with the mention of Jim O'Neill coining the term and his surprise at SA's inclusion, but no previous mention of him or what he has to do with the topic.  (A reader unfamiliar with the topic might think that he coined the BRICS term, and not be able to find further info on the topic, because other than the link to the BRIC article (which is only through clicking on the BRIC name in a different section) there is no specific mention of Goldman Sachs and the theories they published.  I think there should be at least a single statement to that effect, with a  direct.  It could also be qualified with the statement that none of the member countries have referred to the Goldman Sachs reports as contributing to their decision to form a trade bloc.  Perhaps "Theoretical Base" (should be concise, though) and "History" could be two different sections? — Gk sa (talk) 13:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree. BRIC is part of the history of BRICS, and having two separate articles will confuse people. BRIC was expanded to included South Africa. Viller the Great (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Uh, ... no.
Other countries do not form trade alliances to deny the US its rightful place as the arbiter and dictator of nations. Removed flagged text implying as much. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 03:54, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

It was wrong to move BRIC to BRICS
BRIC is an economic term/accronym and a financial thesis by Goldam Sachs' Jim O'Neil. BRIC countries now united in a political organization and included South Africa, creating the BRICS. It was wrong to move BRIC to BRICS since the two accronyms are about different subjects.

One article should talk about the financial thesis as BRIC originally was intended to. BRICS should be about the meetings, treaties, accords, summits and common policies developed by Brazin, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

We had to start a "new" article at BRIC, but that is not right because we've lost all the article history. I will request a move back to BRIC, and then we should create a new article from scratch about the political organization here at BRICS.  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  02:06, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

 * I disagree. BRIC is part of the history of BRICS, and having two separate articles will confuse people. BRIC was expanded to included South Africa. Viller the Great (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Move BRICS to BRIC (to recover edit history) and start a new BRICS article

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved BRICS back to BRIC; moved the forked-off duplicated BRIC page that had been created in the meantime out of the way, to Talk:BRIC/forked, where it is now blanked but has its history of between April and June 2011 preserved. Hope this is what people wanted. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC) Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

BRICS → BRIC —
 * I'm requesting BRICS to be moved back to BRIC. It was a procedural error. Our new article BRICS should had been started from scratch since everybody agrees both are different terms with different meanings. Currently the article BRIC has a copy-paste of an old version, but we lost all the article history 'cause it was moved to BRICS and all corresponded links now link to BRICS. We want BRICS to be moved back to BRIC and start BRICS from scratch. Thanks.  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  04:33, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Support I support this. This article (from BRICS perspective) has far too much on the theoretical BRIC perspective, which would be far more useful when explained in a short-ish "Origins" section with a  to direct those who wish to know more.  This article has too much baggage to give fair treatment to the BRICS topic. After moving, please just copy the top Infobox, the Wikitable in "Member Countries" and the sortable Wikitable in "Statistics" that includes South Africa to the new BRICS article before reverting.  They're nicely done. — Gk sa (talk) 20:28, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Articles exist at BRIC and BRICS. What is wanted? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment is a WP:CFORK of . 65.94.45.160 (talk) 03:29, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree with the above comment, if you mean that the articles should be kept merged. BRIC falls under Articles whose subject is a POV in WP:CFORK and BRICS is an established international entity.  And in this case, the theoretical POV came first, so all the more reason why it should remain a seperate article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gk sa (talk • contribs) 04:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note that this article appears to have already been vandalised. hist — Gk sa (talk) 04:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Support BRIC and BRICS are different things. It was wrong to move BRIC to BRICS because now all the edit history of BRIC is gone. We need to move back to BRIC and create a new article here at BRICS.  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  04:41, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Abstain Whatever the initial reasons for the move, it was probably done incorrectly or inappropriately. Initially, BRIC was the association of 4 polities: Brazil, Russia, India, China.  These 4 polities decided that South Africa should be admitted into their discussion, so it has gone beyond the initial economic association of these polities.  The argument that this move was done incorrectly or even inappropriately is meritable, because the history has be broken.  As someone has pointed out, the inclusion of South Africa has transformed this "club" so that it is has a new association: therefore, BRICS should have been a new article, not the other way around.Curb Chain (talk) 11:33, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Curb Chain, you should vote support. Your explanations totally support the move.  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  07:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm changing my opinion to Support. This is because Talk:BRICS proves this move was not done correctly.  The page history will make it very confusing for the future and future editors to see what the development of changes are without looking through the talk pages of both articles AND their histories.  (And this is urgent because many edits are being done to both article and talk pages.)Curb Chain (talk) 11:13, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Disagree - O'Neill's thesis should remain as part of the history of this organization, it is the realization of his idea. But the organization is not static; it can, has, and probably will continue to grow. There is no need to have a separate article for BRICS any more than there would be for MBRICS if Mexico were to join at some later point. -- Khajidha (talk) 14:20, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe that all of the countries involved would distance themselves from the concept that their economic co-operation is "the realization of his idea" (especially since he is a UK/US economist). Already they have broken away from his theories by including South Africa, which he was opposed to.  Can you provide a citation to support this POV?  Also, I think this article might become inordinately long if it were to include all the Goldman Sachs theory material plus all future developments for the trade bloc. — Gk sa (talk) 13:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Khajidha, you should take a look at Talk:BRIC. It's been established that BRICS is a political concept, because leaders actually endorsed this concept, not an economic paper (I was actually watching the news where they held a meeting.  BRICS is no longer a economic group of polities, it is a group of polities that actually acknowledge its existence).Curb Chain (talk) 07:41, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Support This is a tough one but support a move to recover the edit history and the creation of a separate article for the BRICS. Although the spirit of O'Neill's Goldman Sachs remains to a degree, the addition of South Africa is not just another member but a new stage in the development of the group and a partial repudiation of O'Neill.  Cf. the European Community which was superseded by the EU with the two having their own articles.  —  AjaxSmack  15:23, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Support move to unify article edit history. Disjointed edit history may become problematic down the road, or at the very least cause confusion to future editors.. -- nsaum75 !Dígame¡  07:39, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Strongly Support Unify article edit history under "BRIC". "BRICS" is clearly something else. Ng.j (talk) 00:59, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Support - All the edit history of this article in reality belongs to the development of the article BRIC. We move it back and then make a new article about BRICS. Sefirotaeris (talk) 05:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

No further comment for 2 days now... what remains to be done to resolve this issue? — Gk sa (talk) 20:21, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

There consensus to do the action nominated.Curb Chain (talk) 04:02, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Uh, a move was done, but this SECOND move doesn't seem to have been done properly...Curb Chain (talk) 23:37, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I, for one, am now completely confused as to what is going on here with the move. Plus, there has been so many edits to both articles since BRICS was moved from BRIC and BRIC recreated from history, I don't know whether it still makes sense to do this.  We might have to accept that BRIC's edit history will remain here, rather than risk further disruption... — Gk sa (talk) 12:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * No, just move it back because the sooner we do it, the fewer improper edits. Yes, there has been some constructive edits confusing the history but we still have to do it just for damage control.Curb Chain (talk) 09:50, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

See Above For Reasons
Please move BRICS to BRIC (w/ history + talk) and BRIC to BRICS (w/ history + talk). A second move was done and it was improperly done it seems.Curb Chain (talk) 09:52, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Padlock-olive-arrow2.svg Not done: page move requests should be made at Requested moves. Crazymonkey1123 (Jacob) T/S 04:50, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, this was not done, and the repeat process is forced. If there is a problem, this process has to be redone.Curb Chain (talk) 04:54, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Continued discussion

 * As I can see from the histories of pages BRIC and BRICS as they are now (I can find no evidence of an old or recent history-merge in these 2 pages):
 * At 21:40, 13 April 2011 User:Tone moved BRIC to BRICS properly, leaving a redirect in BRIC.
 * Then at 19:21, 14 April 2011 User:67.100.125.92 copy-and-pasted about two-thirds of BRICS into BRIC, thus starting a WP:Parallel history which is still running. The history before that point belongs better with BRICS, where it is now; I see no use for a history-split and history-merge. Much text is duplicated between BRIC and BRICS: see WP:Content forking.
 * If BRIC and BRICS are distinct political concepts, then those 2 pages better stay separate, but weed out duplicated text. The start of BRICS says "This article is about the five-nation political organization that also includes South Africa"; but page BRICS seems to say little about a formed organization with delegates sent to regular formal meetings and suchlike, and plenty about each of the 5 nations as its own unit. If BRIC largely means BRICS, the two pages could be text-merged in BRICS.
 * Page BRICS is sitting over 4 deleted edits, all 13 April 2011, being 3 redirects and a blanking. Page BRIC has no deleted edits. On 27 April 2011 page BRICS was moved to BRIC (political organization), and back the same day. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I have asked User:Tone to come and sort this mess out. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:45, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, I think I got what happened.
 * Up above in one of the discussion sections, BRIC was made as an article in a user's space. This was because in the real world, South Africa joined BRICS so a new article was "needed", and indeed, a user made such an article in his/her userspace and was reviewed by other editors evidenced by said discussion section.
 * User:Tone did not move this user's draft/article onto BRIC, he instead deleted BRICS and then moved BRIC to BRICS. What should have been done was NOT have deleted BRICS, but the user article should have been pasted ONTOP OF BRIC.Curb Chain (talk) 11:51, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Or maybe a move should not have happened at all. Maybe the (user's) article should have been just pasted ontop of BRICS.Curb Chain (talk) 11:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Flags icons
I believe that in this article we must leave the names of the countries with flag for ease of reading, i mean, many people see the flag and recognize what country are we talking about at least in the statistics section, is not a nationalistic pride. Please comment --Jorge 2701 (talk) 04:43, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:ICONDECORATION disagrees Gnevin (talk) 19:05, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I see your point - but does it really mean no flag icons anywhere in the article? As far as I've seen, flag icons see some fairly regular use on WP. — Gk sa (talk) 22:29, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It depends on how they are used. One view is flagcruft.  Gnevin links a good article.Curb Chain (talk) 07:47, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Map
For the (coming) BRICS article, should the map not be of a different type? The Robinson projection, while a compromise projection, is still a very poor illustration of the countries involved in comparison to each other. How about a map that is Equal-area? — Gk sa (talk) 14:15, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

North Korea's GDP?
This article says that by 2050, North Korea's GDP will be 1,982 billion and its GDP per capita $70,000, in stark contrast to the 40 billion and 1,900 today. That would require a (correct me if I'm wrong) 4,955 percent growth rate for GDP (even higher if the figures for 2050 North Korea's GDP are nominal and not PPP). Even though the source is reliable, I found this extremely hard to believe. Snakespeaker (talk) 01:42, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the source assumes a no-sanctions scenario (surely Kim Jong Il will not live until 2050?), which would revolutionise the North Korean economy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gk sa (talk • contribs) 14:29, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

It is also weird that the list of GDP per capita in 2050 does not show North Korea, but features several countries with less than $70.000. Also, the per capita income of South Korea is slightly different from that table to the list, but the difference is enough to change South Korea's position to first in the rank, instead of second. These two problems show that the projections are clearly from very different sources. 189.13.137.28 (talk) 01:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The 2050 North Korea projections made in 2009 were made on the hypothetical assumption that Korean reunification occurs around 2010 and that North Korea immediately implements free-market reforms. Obviously neither of those things have happened yet. These projections weren't about how North Korea's economy will be in 2050, only what it could be with good leadership and free-market reforms. Also, North Korea is not a part of BRIC or the Next Eleven, which is why it is not mentioned in the main section of this article. And yes, the 2050 North Korea GDP is nominal, not PPP. Futurist110 (talk) 01:19, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

WE NEED THE FLAG ICONS BACK!
Whoever took the flags away, please put them back. The tables don't look very friendly without them. We need the flags back!!! 86.162.36.120 (talk) 13:45, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:ICONDECORATION Gnevin (talk) 19:02, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * And shouting doesn't make your case more convincing.Curb Chain (talk) 07:45, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Accordingly to WP, icons should be avoided in infoboxes, so no we "don't need icons back".  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  10:48, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

 * KEEP Accordingly to WP? Those are guidelines, not rules. As an outside third party observer, I don't see the harm in having the flags.
 * WP:RS and WP:N are guidelines too, do you ignore them? Gnevin (talk) 22:20, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

If there is an argument to be made, just look at any miltary operation , they've got flag icons, which helps the reader get a simpler understanding of who was involved in the conflict. (Think of it as a quick refernce guild) Jetijonez (talk) 16:14, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

 * How does it do that? --John (talk) 16:19, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * A "quick reference guild"? How many of he world's 200-plus flags are you familiar enough with to reliably identify them? I am pretty into flags and I doubt I can recognize more than half of them. How do you distinguish 🇦🇺 from 🇳🇿? 🇮🇪 from ? --John (talk) 18:07, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

 * While I first felt that the loss of the icons left the article poorer, I think the point that MOS:FLAG is actually trying to make is that flag icons are to be used when there is no space for the entire country name, such as with sports teams and military operations. For instance, in Iraq War, the flag next to "United States" is there not embellish the country's name, but to establish the link between the two, so that it can be used further down next to "George W. Bush" and "Barack Obama" to illustrate which country they represented, without repeating "United States", "United States", "United States" over and over again (for which there is no space, anyway).  Since the BRICS article does not use "team members" or "military commanders", flag icons are unnecessary, and best left out. — Gk sa (talk) 20:19, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Well if it's kill everyone here leave'em out. I'm just putting in my two cents. Icons / No Icons to the average reader, I doublt it would make a difference. Jetijonez (talk) 05:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Fry can you please discuss the removal here and Template:Current BRIC Leaders instead of warring Gnevin (talk) 22:29, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You are the one warring. Warring against the countless people who've asked or told you to stop. If it were any other user with as many complaints against a single continuous action by as many other users as you have received, that user would have no doubt been banned by now. Fry1989 (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The WP:CON in this thread supports the removal. As for the rest of that post, nonsense Gnevin (talk) 00:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Nonsense only in yoru mind, reality on the rest of Wikipedia. I've seen several people banned for less. Fry1989 (talk) 00:55, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:ANI, prove it so Gnevin (talk) 13:58, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

flagcountry vs. flagicon
I have no issue using flagicon, but the current state is better than using flagcountry.Curb Chain (talk) 07:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Chafis has been doing the same thing to the G8 and G-20 major economies articles, too. As a result, he is making edit warring controversies there, too. Since this block was posted here, he has not returned to explain his actions. Rockies77 (talk) 00:33, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request

 * Russia and BRICS from the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Can an admin please add this to the external links section. Thanks --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 04:32, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Not knowing anything about the subject, or able to understand Russian, could someone else confirm that this is an appropriate and relevant link to add before this is done please. —  Tivedshambo   (t/c) 09:09, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As an editor who edits on foreign relations of Russia, I can confirm that it is relevant to the subject. I wouldn't be wasting my time if it weren't. --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 09:24, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not doubting you, but just asking for a second opinion. —  Tivedshambo   (t/c) 09:29, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Consolidated discussion about flag icons

 * re WP:Manual of Style (icons)
 * This thread explicitly centralises and references other threads on this page, e.g.,
 * Flags icons
 * WE NEED THE FLAG ICONS BACK!
 *  [[undefined] vs  ]
 * Perhaps the related issues can be discussed and resolved in this consolidated thread ? --Tenmei (talk) 22:31, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

As a arguably helpful starting point, please consider the following, which was copied from an archived thread at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (flags):
 * Question: The article about the G8 incorporates a Wikitable; and flags are posted as a quick graphic device to distinguish amongst the 34 summits which have been held since 1975.  This use of the flagicon-template is helpful; but I do not know whether it will be perceived as consistent with the guidelines for flags.  If not, why not?
 * Answer: The table in question would be considered appropriate because it's a list in which the flags are useful for navigation. The way to avoid future problems is simply to read the guidelines (and discuss the matter here if you don't like them!) Cop 663 (talk) 23:40, 15 July 2008 ... compare Manual_of_Style_(flags)

In a broader context, please review Talk:G8 and Talk:G-20 major economies. Perhaps someone will have constructive comments to add? --Tenmei (talk) 22:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Poll: Use of in tables
It is proposed: The should be restored in the tables only because the flags are useful for navigation.

Support

 * 1) --Tenmei (talk) 23:00, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) Our readers are able to read and they have no problem decoding letters to extract meanings of simple and well-known country names like "Brazil". Adding the flag icons makes the resource look trashy and sub-literate. --John (talk) 00:16, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 2) The flag icons ultimately serve no purpose, other than as clutter.  On larger lists, having a flag icon would be useful (as Tenmei noted above), but this is a list that only contains five countries. This is no large list that needs to be scanned quickly for the reader's country of interest. - SudoGhost (talk) 10:58, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 3) This is about a political organization.  As noted by Gk sa in Talk:BRICS, icons can convey more information in a 2d space.  This is useful if it DOES do that, such as when in articles that not only talk about the political science of a polity, but the culture as well.  This article is only about the politics.Curb Chain (talk) 02:10, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: I was referring to the use of flag icons in infoboxes, specifically. I am neutral on the use of flag icons in tables.  Additional comments in Discussion below. — Gk sa (talk) 07:27, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) First of all, Wikipedia says we should not use flagicons on infoboxes. Secondly, there's only 4 nations listed there and a big map. People can read. No need for flags.  Alex  Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  06:04, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: This poll focuses solely on the use of in the table context -- nothing to do with the infobox. --Tenmei (talk) 14:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Per all the above Gnevin (talk) 17:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

 * 1) I find the graphic icons helpful when I try to scan the array of rows and columns.  It may be tangentially relevant that the use of flags in templates has evolved inconsistently --  see Template talk:Current BRIC Leaders#Flags.  --Tenmei (talk) 23:00, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, the arrow of SudoGhost above hits the center of the target. IMO, the only arguable reason for including  in a table for this specific article is a perceived value in format consistency across the array of a category of articles, e.g.,
 * Category:21st-century diplomatic conferences?
 * Category:Economic Grouping Acronyms?.
 * If we agree that it is not necessary, the question becomes: Is it arguably helpful for the BRIC table format to mirror the format of tables in corollary articles like G-20 major economies and G8? John and SudoGhost think that this is not good.  Whether or not we accept their opinion as consensus, this is constructive step in a process. This poll has become part of the process which helps us to discover a consensus viewpoint which we can all accept. --Tenmei (talk) 16:14, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Can we centralise this discussion, having it 4 places is a pain Gnevin (talk) 00:48, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course; but can we not agree that this thread serves to centralise and consolidate the previous disparate discussion threads? Tenmei (talk) 13:59, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

 * 1) A separate debate has been on going @ Template:Infobox bilateral relations.  I've reopened a rfc on flags but with an additional proposal; see Template_talk:Infobox_bilateral_relations and its edit summary.Curb Chain (talk) 02:01, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 2) As stated above, I am neutral on the topic of flag icons in tables .  I do believe icons in general carry a slight advantage when locating information on a list/table, but I also believe that it cannot be a substitute for the name of what it represents, unless it is universally recognisable (or as mentioned in my original statement in Talk:BRICS, when there are space limitations and it's meaning is established higher up in the text).  I do think the number of rows in the table under consideration is very relevant, and if a discussion ever to be had about a consistent guideline for using flag icons in tables, I would support it's use in tables of a certain number of rows or more.  (I'm thinking 15 or more, perhaps as low as 10 rows - but for a guideline to be set, there would be a lot more of discussion about the specific number.)  The fact that there are currently only five nations in BRICS militates against the usefulness of any flag icons.  Additionally, there is no point in reaching a consensus about it here, and for editors of another article to reach a different consensus.  It's vastly more important to have a fairly consistent style across Wikipedia than either of the two options here are, in isolation. — Gk sa (talk) 07:27, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Closing poll
I was asked a while ago by Tenmei to close this as an uninvolved party. It appears the consensus is not to use flagicons in the table. I am aware that some of the comments misunderstood the proposal, but the majority still appears to favour not adding the flags.  Night w   12:13, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Copied over from talk page of forked BRIC page. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

BRIC is not the same as BRICS, please help mantain the article
BRIC is an acronym of a financial thesis created by Goldman Sachs' Jim O'Neil. BRIC countries have since then grouped in a political movement that now includes South Africa, named BRICS. This article should be dedicated exclusively to the financial thesis. BRICS article will talk about the political group, their treaties, accords, summits and whatever political stuff.

BRICS article was created by moving BRIC, which was not right. So I've added the last good version without South Africa. South Africa was "included" in the political group, not in the financial group that this article represents.  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  01:12, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

"Mexico and South Korea were the only other countries comparable to the BRICs, but their economies were excluded initially because they were considered more developed" :i live in mexico and i watch korean dramas and i see how korea is really developed,korea look like a high developed country,but i live in mexico and here the country have some nice places but most mexico look poor,i don't see mexico much more developed than the brics,is the true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.175.0.122 (talk) 20:48, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

 * I disagree. BRIC is part of the history of BRICS, and having two separate articles will confuse people. BRIC was expanded to included South Africa. The other language Wikipedias have them together, not separate. I would like to see a merger. Viller the Great (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

IMPORTANT: About moving back BRICS to BRIC
The original article was about BRIC, the financial accronym and economical thesis created by Goldman Sach's Jim O'Neil. It contained all the financial information needed.

In April 13 2011 it was forked and moved to BRICS, starting a new article because this organization decided to include South Africa (that's why the "S" was added). This was wrong because BRIC and BRICS are completely different terms. BRIC is simply a term, while BRICS is a political organization on its own.

Now that BRICS was restored to BRIC and the article history has been recovered (yay!), we can start a real BRICS article. It doesn't have to repeat the same information, remember BRICS is a political organization.

I have restored the article as it was previous to the move. Please help to improve it and correct whatever is wrong.  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  17:12, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

 * It would have been much better had you NOT done this: we can take out irrelevant information. Now I have to dig through the dirt literally and literally start from scratch since all the improvements have been lost.Curb Chain (talk) 06:19, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * But the improvements you talk about were about BRICS not BRIC, so we only have to add back whatever was relevant in the previous version.  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  15:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * For BRICS, I like the draft that was created at Talk:BRIC/draft - I think we should start from there. (Yes, I'm posting it here, because there is currently no talk page for BRICS.)  If so, we should avoid ccreating a new BRICS article until the draft has been moved.  Who agrees? — Gk sa (talk) 08:54, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. It is a great way to start BRICS.  Alex Covarrubias  <sup style="font-size:x-small; color:green;">( Talk? )  08:58, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. I've made a small start to updating the draft - it refers to the Beijing meeting as still in the future. Hopefully we can sort out both articles' schizophrenia soon. Roger (talk) 11:04, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The reason we have all this huge mess of history is because this same draft you are talking about was proposed here: Talk:BRIC. Gk sa, you know this.  There has been at least 2 editors who have judged these two articles as content forks.  We are back at square one.  Please please do not request moves or move anything until you sort this out.  It will give huge headaches if we have to go through a flurry of double (redundant) moves.Curb Chain (talk) 10:18, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as I understood, the consensus was that the original BRIC article belongs at BRIC, and only has some relation to BRICS as a formalised grouping. I understood the consensus to be that BRICS deserves its own article and that South Africa should not be covered in BRIC except for stating O'Neill's opinion on SA, perhaps.  (As it is now, finally).  None of the editors who raised the issue of content forks responded on subsequent comments stating reasons why it is not the same as a content fork - which creates the impression that the issue was resolved and consensus was reached.  The entire point of posting here first and asking for agreement, is take make sure that that consensus exists, however, and for that reason, I would not request a move until consensus is confirmed.  Please note that I am NOT saying that the draft should be located at BRIC, but rather at BRICS, which is currently a redirect.  Are you saying that South Africa should not be included anywhere in a BRIC/BRICS article? — Gk sa (talk) 12:31, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * South Africa is a whole different matter and no, I am not saying that. But I am saying that, long story short, the draft and the article at the time are not much different from each other, which is what those content fork claimants claimed, and I can see where they are coming from.Curb Chain (talk) 00:27, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree. BRIC is part of the history of BRICS, and having two separate articles will confuse people. BRIC was expanded to included South Africa. The other language Wikipedias have them together, not separate. I would like to see a merger. Viller the Great (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Time to start a real BRICS article
I think it's time to create a real article about the political organization BRICS. Now that the content fork has been resolved we can work together to create a new article about this. Please note that BRICS is a political organization, different from the Goldam Sachs accronym BRIC.

I believe the new article should have:
 * An infobox about the member countries
 * Information about each BRICS summit (this is very important)
 * Brief history about how South Africa was included (as this was an important political step)
 * Avoid too much information about economics (remember the previous BRICS article was basically an exact copy of BRIC, which was regarded as a forking)
 * Treaties or agreements the BRICS countries have reached so far

So what do you think? Please let me know what you think and help to create this new article.  Alex Covarrubias  <sup style="font-size:x-small; color:green;">( Talk? )  19:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I highly support this move, as this addresses contentforking. Feel free to draft one.Curb Chain (talk) 07:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Ok it seems nobody is interested in creating this article! Incredible, then one must assume that moving BRIC to BRICS was indeed a content fringe...  Alex Covarrubias  <sup style="font-size:x-small; color:green;">( Talk? )  06:03, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Ok I've written the first sentence. Roger (talk) 09:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

New 2050 GDP Projections by Goldman Sachs
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:HXQQdIX_yv4J:www.theasset.nl/8761/111208-Goldman-Sachs-Global-Economics-Paper-208.pdf?v%3D0+brics+10+years+projections&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgthhqgu3duAV14lW0G9DuPubtiirriyS1-tsR1AIkhSy2tEErUwaFH_K3ECIw2NZWbO-7Opu_-a-eIsmJgOiv0ugCWfY7ms9H9TqFgBMBW0KAuLxz2E1ObHH0C6Ije7c-H6p2O&sig=AHIEtbQTt-iIMGUFLx1zWuhdHLcZ-Lp3ZQ

Why does this page continue to use the 2007 projections when Goldman Sachs released new 2011 BRIC and Next Eleven projections? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Futurist110 (talk • contribs) 22:16, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

BRICS and BRIC
LOOK I apologize in advance for kicking this dead horse again, I realize it is getting mushy and is not resulting in anything, but... BRICS AND BRIC involve different financial institution's terms, fine but in the end 4/5 parts of BRICS should already have the same info in BRIC, should these two not be merged into BRIC(S) the S in brackets as often used to denote the new incumbent, this way we could latch the extra info on, even if you don't want to merge them per say, you could just have BRIC(S) as the page with a section at the bottom that talks about South Africa in a somewhat segregated (no offence intended in reference to the term segregation and south africa) part of the article that talks about why it's included, what financial institutes see as challenges and potential, etc. etc. etc., it seems inefficient to have two articles when a vast majority of the coverage is the same SandeepSinghToor (talk) 10:24, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree the articles should be merged. -- Beland (talk) 12:56, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Previously BRIC was coined by Jim O'Neill as acronym of 4 countries which are all deemed to be at a similar stage of newly advanced economic development, but in 2009 the leaders of BRIC countries made the first summit and in 2010 BRIC became a formal institution. South Africa began efforts to join the BRIC grouping and on December 24, 2010 South Africa is invited to join BRICS. The aim of BRIC is establishment of an equitable, democratic and multi polar world order, but later BRIC became a political organization, moreover after South Africa joined BRICS. Jim O'Neill, told the summit that South Africa, at a population of under 50 million people, was just too small an economy to join the BRIC ranks. I think it is better to maintain two articles and not merge into one article, because BRIC and BRICS have different background. BRIC article can be focused to maintain economic development among BRIC countries and BRICS article can be focused to others among BRICS countries.Gsarwa (talk) 11:31, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

The page is not being maintained
There are various outdated/false stats. For example, India's 2.3 Trillion$ GDP stands at no.7 as of 2015, not no.10. Brazil and Russia fall below. Per capita incomes arent right either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.62.246.245 (talk) 07:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I was just about to say that. It's badly outdated.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:55, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I've tag the article as being out of date. If you have the information and time please correct/update it. Jonpatterns (talk) 23:08, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

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Suggest to merge BRIC and BRICS
As a name of bloc of nations, the two terms are generally refering to one thing. The difference of the two terms can be explained in a few lines. Will.L.T. (talk) 09:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:BRIC


text:
User talk:Bryce

Articles for deletion/David Mertz
I saw your AfD vot for Simson Garfinkel. While he is of somewhat greater noteriety than I (David Mertz) am, there seems to be a common weird bias against academics/computer writers (but a porn actor or indy band of 1/20th the influence is automatically kept). If you feel like voting, thanks. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:18, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Being the inclusionist I am, I voted for keeping the article. No problem. Bryce 20:20, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks. I confess there is a vanity aspect to wanting the article about me to continue, but then, I would (less vehemently) work to keep articles on writers/academics who are less notable than me; just today, an AfD vote and a minor cleanup for Shari Evelyn Kendall. I'm not completely inclusionist, but I do tend to think that earning Ph.D.'s and writing academic books is more notable than a lot of things that people do without being listed on AfD. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 23:45, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I voted to keep professor Kendall also, thanks for pointing it out. If you'd like to point me at any other endangered academics, feel free; I'll strongly consider voting to keep them. I do wish that these articles talked more about why the person is notable, however. What amount to snippets from a CV may make someone notable if you are in the same field, but for the general audiance of Wikipedia, I think more explaination of the significance of the person's work would be highly helpful. Not only would the articles perhaps be more useful/interesting, it would help keep them of AfD. Bryce 00:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't necessarily follow AfD that much. Usually I just see some particular topic that I think should be kept; then kinda get drawn into reading the AfD pages for a couple days.  Then it fades.  But if I do that, I'll keep you in mind to mention academics at issue.  Having started a couple pages on academics myself, I both certainly agree with you on the need for giving general-reader context, but also know that it's a lot easier to start the two sentence version of an article than it is to write six paragraphs on why their work is actually important.  If AfD'ers would give articles a couple weeks to magically evolve, I think the significance of academics would emerge better... but when things get AfD'd in a day or two, it's harder. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 00:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:1630analyzer.png
Thanks for uploading Image:1630analyzer.png. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the media on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then you can use GFDL to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Nv8200p talk 21:03, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You really goofed up. I created that image and put it into the Public Domain, at a time when - IIRC - it was legitimate to simply put the generic 'PD' in the description. Paranoid morons going around and deleting images because they don't know the exact circumstances are hurting Wikipedia, by filling pages with broken image links. I see more and more of these disappeared images these days. It was one thing to delete images with no claim as to their copyright status, but this is going too far. That image had been around for quite a while before you decided to do this. I happened to not log in for a few days and this happens! You could have at least waited a month or so, given how obviously non-urgent the situation was.
 * Really, do something constructive. People like you are vandals as heart, hiding your destructive tendencies behind a disguise of lawfulness.
 * Thankfully, the image was replaced, as I have lost the original that you destroyed. Bryce 20:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I did not goof up. If I remember correctly, there was no source information on that image, which means the PD tag had no validity. The policy of Wikipedia is an image older than 7 days without a source is to be deleted. Pretty sure I followed the policy in this case. If you are unhappy with this policy, please contact User:Jimbo Wales. I remove image links from articles, when I delete the image, but I'm sure I have missed a few. Others bother not to remove broken links, which, like you said, is detrimental. Though, what could really hurt Wikipedia is if they end up in court because of any one of the thousands of copyright violations on the site. The faster we can get rid of images that are not properly sourced or licensed the better for the project. Sorry if we don't see eye-to-eye on that. Nv8200p talk 22:53, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Volapük
Hi Bryce. I found your name via the Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians and thought you might care about this discussion: Proposals for closing projects/Radical cleanup of Volapük Wikipedia. In case you agree with us that deleting bots is not the best for the Volapük Wikipedia, you could help us fight this proposal with your vote. Thanks in advance! Smeira 02:14, 16 January 2008.

Sorry I couldn't help, I was on vaccation. Glad that a Keep vote was obtained. Bryce (talk) 05:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You maybe interested in the Article Rescue Squadron

I notice that you are part of Category:Inclusionist_Wikipedians. I would like you to consider joining the Article Rescue Squadron. Rescue Squadron members are focused on rescuing articles for deletion, that might otherwise be lost forever. I think you will find our project matches your vision of Wikipedia.

Ikip (talk) 00:48, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Automatic Grammar Improvements
I am writing regarding your apparently automatic replacement of "due to the fact that" with "because." While it is often a good idea to replace the periphrastic "due to the fact that" with the slightly shorter "because," this does not actually work in all sentences, and you should not do it automatically without reading the whole sentence. You have done this twice now on the Leprechaunism article, even after it was reverted once before by a native speaker of English. Please stop changing it there. If it really bothers you, rework the whole sentence so that it works correctly with "because."

Thanks. I do appreciate your efforts to improve the grammar and style of the article.

Bryce (talk) 06:15, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've read the entire sentence in question twice (I try to avoid sentences where it won't make sense), and the "due to the fact that" there is clumsy and poorly-written. Per your suggestion, I've re-worked the entire sentence, but reverting back to bad grammar doesn't make any sense to me. Finally, there's the issue of the reference at the end of that sentence, which cannot be verified, and probably should be replaced. Since you obviously care for this article, I shall leave that up to you. Best wishes and happy editing, Firsfron of Ronchester  19:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Although I don't agree that "due to the fact that" was ungrammatical, I like the reworked sentence better than either of the old versions. I'm glad that worked out well. I'll see what can be done about finding a better reference, if one is needed. Bryce (talk) 00:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "Due to the fact that" should be avoided in formal writing . The reference in the article now isn't verifiable; it's personal communication, and another Wikipedia editor would be hard-pressed to track down the personal communication (partly because it's personal communication, and partly because the author's name is only partially complete). A peer-reviewed medical paper would be much better. Thanks for taking a look for a better reference. Best, Firsfron of Ronchester  01:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Link
I was trying to link to the URl, but if simply putting, "YouTube - The Annoying Orange" won't do it, then I may have to copy-paste the URL.--ObiwanLostToBarney (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Bryce