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Talk:Kannada literature

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 * Archive 1 - 2006 to April 2008
 * Archive 2 - RfC and follow-up April 2008

Request no edits until dispute resolution
I would like to request editors to not edit the Karnataka literature page and the related pages Halmidi inscription and Extinct Kannada literature, until the issues of consistent exaggeration of the antiquity of the early works as well as the false characterization of the extinct works is settled. Regards, Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  03:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * What you call exaggeration is the opinion of numerous scholars. The fact that there are very few scholars who support your theory does not make the opinion of majority scholars redundant or an exaggeration.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 11:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see my reply below. Regards,  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  13:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Urge user:Fowler&fowler to keep away from this article
Having failed to prove your point in the previous Rfc, you cant resort to keeping an article locked up in controversy, just to wet you appetite. You have a choice, keep away from this article or go bring a neutral mediator who can putup with your lengthy and endless debates.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 11:59, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Since we have already had an RfC, which was inconclusive—in part because the arbitrator, user:Abecedare, has not been on Wikipedia in a number of months—I will be requesting mediation. I'd like to clarify, I am not making a threat, simply proceeding to the next step in the Wikipedia dispute resolution process.  Regards,  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  13:34, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I am, consequently, returning the "disputed" tag until the dispute resolution has been completed. I will, however, not be editing any of the three articles. Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  14:32, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The Rfc was inconclusive for two reasons; you refused to concede on any issue and tried to sidestep the issue, when you knew things were not going well for you, and tried to pin false allegations on me. Then you apologised and said you would not return to this article, but did not keep your word, as expected. Also, any mediator you bring forward and is acceptable to me will fully read the contents of the previous Rfc. Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record, I didn't make a false allegation against you: I presented evidence that you didn't explain at first. It was only when I saw that an explanation would not be forthcoming that I wondered if you had broken Wikipedia rules by falsely citing a reference, a remark for which I later apologized.  However, at the very least you quoted selectively from the book, A Concise History of Karnataka from Prehistoric Times by Suryanath U. Kamath,  by not mentioning a crucial sentence in the introduction (p.6) in your edition of the book which said: "'We have an inscription of the 6th century, written in the Kannada language and the Kannada script. This is the famous Halmidi Record of the Kadambas (for long scholars were of the view that it belonged to c. 450 A.D. and opinion is still divided over its date.)'"
 * instead, you picked a later sentence (p. 10), "The earliest lithic documents in Kannada are the Halmidi record of the Kadambas and the Badami cave record of Mangalesha which are of the fifth and sixth centuries respectively." You then only mentioned the second reference to Halmidi, not the first; furthermore, you didn't say "fifth century," but rather 450 AD.
 * I had a fellow-Wikipedian talk to the book's publishers and order the 2008 edition, so I know the history of the book's publishing. The book is now mass produced for high-school and college use and sells for less than a dollar (and that is the edition you have).  In the original edition of the book, the only edition that is available in the Library of Congress, World Cat, or British COPAC academic catalogs, both pages 6 and 10 only mention the sixth century.  I will be happy to challenge your selective citation in the mediation as well if you insist on using Kamath as a reference for the 450 AD date.
 * If you feel my behavior was less than stellar, you can file an RfC against me. This, however, is a content dispute.  I'm sure the Wikipedia mediation committee will factor in whatever they think is important to the content issue at hand.  Regards,  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  21:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC) (Updated:  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  11:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC))
 * Cool.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 21:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

My main content issues
I would like to clarify that there are only three content issues that concern me; outside of these, I have little concern with the article. All have to do either with the antiquity of the literature or with the characterization of hypothesized extinct works. Please do not argue with me here since we have already done that at great length in the RfC, but I'd like to have a clear statement of my discontents and of the compromises in wording that I am willing to make:
 * 1) I feel that Kannada literature begins with Kavirajamarga (850 AD) and that the article should not make any claims of an earlier provenance in the main text (it can in a footnote cite a few scholars on each side of the controversy).
 * 2) I feel that the date of the Halmidi inscription in the main text or image captions should be "fifth or sixth century AD" with other details going into the footnote.
 * 3) I feel that the "extinct literature" should not be mentioned in the main text, only in a footnote (as suggested in 1. above.)

Fowler&fowler «Talk»  12:03, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * PS. I should like to point out that this is not the mediation. I am simply stating my position above, in case other editors want to suggest compromises (as I have stated above). Regards,  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  15:12, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Dear Mr and Mrs Fowler,
 * I very much admire your controlled assertiveness in protecting the reliability of the text of the article (and both your nom de plume and signature also). As I start in on copyedit work, I am largely trusting faithful representation of sources. It is good that others have considered verifying this information.
 * I think I'm fairly impartial here. I think it is correct, as you say, that literature frequently refers to a genre that often does not extend to inscriptions. That is a point very well made. However, I think it is a point that can also be challenged.
 * The sense in which the article uses the word literature needs to be clarified in the lead, and includes distinguishing any and all enscripted forms of Kannada ("literature" in only a very broad sense) from literature in an operatic (I mean "opus-like") sense. I think this needs to be said in a more transparent way than I have just articulated it in the abstract here on the talk page. I also think that is precisely what is currently done in the article. I copyedited the relevant sentences before reading of the disagreement here. I think my attempt to render the language I encountered in the text in a fashion to promote precision may have helped a little to deflect the disagreement here. If it does do so, that is merely serendipitous, it was not my intention.
 * If you are still watching this page, sir, I would very much care for your opinion on the first paragraph (which is pretty much all I have done so far). I can't promise to agree with any criticism you may offer, but I shall certainly be inclined to listen to it very carefully indeed. I have seen excellent comments from you in other places at Wiki and recognise one who knows a good deal more than I, on a wide range of important matters. Alastair Haines (talk) 06:28, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * PS This looks like a reliable (though not definitive) source: Language of the Inscriptions — Archeological Survey of India [The last sentence of second last paragraph mentions the Halmidi inscription.]
 * "The earliest documented inscription is from [the sic] Halmidi inscription dated 450 AD.... (Kavirājamārga of the ninth century, is the first literary work available)."
 * — P. Prakash and R. Malatesha, "Kannada orthography", in Insup Taylor and David R. Olson (eds), Scripts and Literacy, (Springer Science+Business Media, 1995), p. 97.
 * "Sanskrit words have been borrowed into Kannada from the earliest times—the very first document in Kannada, the Halmidi inscription of c. 450 CE, contains..."
 * —SN Sridhar, "Language modernization in Kannada", in Braj B. Kachru, Yamuna Kachru, S. N. Sridhar (eds), Language in South Asia, (Cambridge University Press, 2008), pp. 327–342.
 * These are good publishers. 450 AD is all over Google Scholar. I'm not convinced they are correct, none of these scholars appear to be epigraphers or paleographers (which I dabble in myself). However, the consistency argues for them lining up behind some uncited published paleographical argument. Personally, I'd like to see that argument before making a judgment, but at Wiki, that'd be original research. I'm content to follow what seems to be clear evidence of consensus.
 * Is this irritating Mr Fowler? Or are you content that I'm doing what someone should do? If I have the time I can try to find the paleographic reports. There will be an editio princeps for the inscription, any serious later work will cite that. Alastair Haines (talk) 10:19, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Hi there! I just saw this.  Finally, a man after my own heart who is interested in these issues.  Well, let's see, off the top of my head, the original dating (1934) was done by one M. H. Krishna, who was somethingorother in the archeology department of Mysore State (Mysore was then a princely state).  My guess is that since Halmidi as not as old as the Sanskrit, Tamil, or Prakrit inscriptions, the epigraphers at the ASI didn't any attention to it in the early days.  With the rise of regional Indian languages (and their nationalisms), however, in the 1950s, Halmidi and other vernacular inscriptions probably became more interesting.  Up until the mid 1980s, all mention of Halmidi, and its 450 CE date, was of the perfunctory kind that you mention above.  One prominent paleographer/epigraphist D. C. Sircar, however,  had disagreed with the 450 date early on (i.e. in the 60s).  In the late 80s/early 90s, G. S. Gai disagreed with the 450 date as well.  Sheldon Pollock, who is a literary scholar, and who now favors early 6th century date,  talks about all this in his Language of Gods in the World of Men" book.  Richard Salamon, in his book (see refs), dates it to the late 6th or early 7th century.  There are, of course, other epigraphists, such as K. V. Ramesh, who agree'' with the 450 date; the others in this camp, however, are not as prominent as the ones who disagree.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  11:22, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The number of spelling and other errors above suggest that I am tired or in need of coffee. Will check in later in the day.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  11:25, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Since the rest of the household is still asleep, I better get this in before they catch me breaking my promise to stay off-Wiki during Christmas. Here is  a more complete version of the Halmidi page.  The relevant publication is MAR 37.  I did try to look for it almost a year ago, but wasn't successful.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  11:45, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL, I understand you exactly. Yes, keep your promise to your family. I see now I have been rediscovering the wheel. We can talk again later. Meanwhile I'll be working out how to explain to hard-working, honest Dinesh that you are really on his side. You two need a translator! ;) Alastair Haines (talk) 12:03, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That sounds good to me, and, just in case you are not volunteering yourself for said job, I shall be happy to nominate you whenever such need arises. ;) Speaking of translators, your userboxes suggest innate ability in that direction.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  19:35, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Main content issues
I, the main author of this article, will add my points below later today to make it easier for the mediator. I will also add a few lines that give a gist of lessons learned from the previous RFc of this article, in case the mediator does not have the time to read through the Rfc.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:55, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * As I have stated above, this not the mediation. You will need to provide all your evidence in the mediation which will be opened elsewhere.  You are welcome to provide your summary of the previous RfC, but it will be treated as your summary; your being the "main author" doesn't give you any special privileges either with regard to the veracity of your summary or to the content dispute in question.  Regards,   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  15:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Dont make rules. My points will be provided here and later in the mediation.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:12, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

 * 1) I feel that literature is literature, whether it is royal courtly literature or folk literature. Trying to give literature an institutional twist goes against the very fact that literature is a natural human phenomena, born out of socio-cultural process, to which people (kings, political leaders, heads of monasteries etc) often gave a political twist, when they encouraged or discouraged certian forms of literature, based on elitism and socio-cultural movements. More over, there are sufficient number of scholars (western and eastern) who concur that Kannada literature, with a mature base, existed well before Kavirajamarga, based on its contents and otherwise. This is supported not only by the existance of poetic inscriptions from the 7th and 8th centuries written in native metres, but also by various references to these extinct literatures during the later medieval period. So the proposed existance of a pre-Kavirajamarga literature and a prior grammatical tradition in Kannada, and re-buttals to this theory should appear on the main article lead section itself. One has to weigh the number and quality of citations for either theory. If the number of scholars who claim that pre-Kavirajamarga literature existed is significant and this vastly outnumbers those who claim it did not, then clearly the "against" view should go in a footnote.
 * 2) Though no doubt Halmidi is the most famous inscription in Kannada, among the early ones, I feel that the dating of the earliest inscriptions in Kannada, one this article lead, should not only be based on Halmidi inscription but also on the existance of other 5th century inscriptions (Chikamagalur, Siragunda, Tamatekallu inscriptions). More over, majority of the scholars and historians date Halmidi to 450 CE or more generally to 5th century. So, Only the 5th century dating should appear on the lead, with the rest of the details, giving fringe dates, in the footnotes.
 * 3) Extinct Kannada literature, which is currently a sub-article has numerous scholars and sources attesting to its validy. More can be provided if required. It used to appear as a sub-section, but to avoid further controversy, I moved it to a main:sub-article and it should stay there. In fact this was proposed by some of those who attended the previous RFc. Further, the number and quality of citations should be considered here.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Perhaps you would like to explain why the 2008 Encyclopaedia Britannica page on "Kannada Literature" begins with, " the literature written in Kannada, which, like the other languages of South India, is of the Dravidian family. The earliest records in Kannada are inscriptions dating from the 6th century AD onward. The earliest literary work is the Kavirajamarga (c. AD 850), a treatise on poetics based on a Sanskrit model." This is not one of the articles written for the 1979 Britannica, but the very latest.  The page has the same title as this page.  Perhaps you could explain why the editors of Britannica chose to ignore the "sufficient number of scholars (western and eastern)" that according to you give both the literature and the inscriptions an earlier provenance.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  18:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the revert. Start the mediation, we will talk there. Good Bye for now.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 18:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Starting copyedit
This is an outstanding article imo, and a subject I want to know more about. Thanks Dinesh and other workers here. Although I expect I may be slow in working on this article, it is both a pleasure, and the least I can do to say thank you. Alastair Haines (talk) 05:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Alastair, What I'm about to say, is not meant in the least to discourage you. I'm very glad that you copy editing the article. So, welcome!

 * Just so that you know, though, this article has been (and still is) the subject of a dispute. The dispute has to do with the antiquity of the Kannada language.  Kannada, a Dravidian vernacular, didn't manage to step out from under the shadow of both Sanskrit (from which it borrowed its haute vocabulary, much as English did with Latin) and Tamil (the oldest Dravidian language, with which Kannada shares its grammar, much as English does with German or did with Old Norse) until well into the second millennium CE.  Sanskrit and Tamil have long been considered to be classical languages in the scholarly literature; Kannada and other vernaculars, such as Telugu, Marathi, or Hindi, however, have not.  In fact, English, which is not considered a classical language, is older (i.e. its oldest extant works are older) than any Indian vernacular, including Kannada.  However, all this doesn't seem to faze Kannada nationalists, who would like to remedy this historical wrong, and recover for their beloved language, the antiquity that has long eluded it in the works of the eggheads.

 * To all this, you might say, "OK. So what does it have to do with my work?" Well, as you are well aware, a copy-editor is also a bit of a precis writer, wordsmith, and re-writer; consequently, he or she can unwittingly aid the underlying POV of an article, if they are not aware of it. In my view, the hyping of antiquity (in the first part of the article) and of the specialness of Kannada and its literature (in the latter half) is a major underlying bias of this article.  It is of a piece with the problems were are seeing at WP:FAR and Talk:Kannada literature in the Kingdom of Mysore.  It is my view of course, but even if I am wrong, no harm is done if a copy-editor is aware of the distinct possibility of such bias.   Regards,  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  10:44, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * You're talking my language! Thank you. :)
 * I think I will do a little more work, watch attentively and remain as neutral as possible.
 * The possible influence of Tamil love poetry on the Song of Songs is something I must consider as part of a dissertation in real life (and work on which precludes me making efficient progress at this article over the next month anyway).
 * I have much to learn about issues related to ANE interaction with proposed Dravidian influence, but learn I must.
 * I know that it is not just nationalists, but possibly English language scholars out to make a reputation that may have vested interests in demonstrating antiquity.
 * Richard Salomon, "Epigraphic Remains of Indian Traders in Egypt", Journal of the American Oriental Society 111 (1991): 731–736. [JSTOR first page only]
 * I'm not having a go at Mr Salomon here. I'm sure he's perfectly decent, but he illustrates a western openness to the ideas we're discussing.
 * Perhaps, Mr or Mrs Fowler (or both) ;) we are on the boundary of where Wikipedia bumps between reliability and current scholarship (aka original research). That's a crude and ultimately incorrect oversimplification probably resolved by articulating multiple PsOV.
 * Anyway, having located the editio princeps for the Halmidi inscription (and noted it at external links in that article) I detected two things: there was a genuine scholastic and paleographical case made for the dating; however this sort of thing is always very approximate when something is proposed as the earliest example of something, because there are no suitable inscriptions of similar date with which to compare it.
 * I'd be certain this point was not lost on the later scholars who revised the date upwards, and in time I may attempt to locate their work, should that not prove too time consuming.
 * I'll conclude by noting I have a neutrality regarding the current dispute of the very best sort: I rather think both sides each have excellent reasons for holding their respective ground. I will be honest and admit that I dearly long for the antiquity of Kannada to be confirmed, this is nationalism of the nicest kind, bought at no one else's expense. And it may well be true! However, I very much admire your willingness to appear "stingy", when really it's only that maturity has taught you that intellectual discipline in scholarship is best for everyone in the long run.
 * I share too many words and I share too much of my heart to feel totally comfortable in polite Anglo-Saxon derived culture. If I cause any offense please forgive me, I feel very well guided by your words indeed. Alastair Haines (talk) 11:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * By "Tamil love poetry," do you mean Sangam literature? That sounds fascinating.  My own guess (and I'm far from area of expertise here) is that a large swath of west-central (and not just southern) India was speaking Dravidian languages, at least away from the major cities, well into the early centuries of the first millennium CE.  I'm guessing too that present-day Maharashtra, Gujarat, and Sind would have been in this swath, and would have provided geographical continuity between Brahui, the western-most living Dravidian language, and Kannada, the northernmost living one.  Consequently, the coastal areas from tip of peninsular India to the border with Iran would have been Dravidian speaking.  The possibility of Old Tamil or some other proto-Dravidian language making its way to Old Testament Holy Land would then not be so far fetched.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  19:40, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you might have the wrong Salamon in the link; this one, I think, is at UW-Seattle, and is mainly interested in Buddhism. Will download the paper.  But your point is well-taken: one should be open to the possibility of surprises.  At the very least, the Greek farce suggests that its author had had sufficient contact with Dravidian speakers to be able to mimic them, and his audience had sufficient awareness of these speakers to respond to the humor.  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  19:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * PS I did have some article-related thoughts, which, if I can stretch my current window of surreptitious time, I will say something below in a section. Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  19:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * PPS Here's info on the gentleman. Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  19:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you for the correction re Salomon, I've corrected the link so it points to his official uni staff bio page.
 * I feel rather awful getting back to your posts here so very late, given the generosity of your "surreptitious time" at Christmas.
 * I like your theory and it accords precisely with a published line of argument regarding plausible influence from Sangam literature (or its antecedents) on the Song of Songs. That line of influence is not a thesis held very widely, and is not my own view. I think there is a good chance the Song is older, though dating doesn't seem to influence the elements of interpretation I am studying. However, simple fascination mixed with care not to exclude relevant evidence, however circumstantial, draws me to keep tinkering about with the possibilities.
 * Anyway, enough said here for the time being. I ask you to "burst my bubble" in the Miscellaneous references section below. I'm quite serious, I could be drifting in the wrong direction.
 * Alastair Haines (talk) 13:01, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Facsimile reprints
I believe it is best to use the original year of publication of a book that has been brought out in a facsimile reproduction (or xerox print). Otherwise, we'd all be citing, "... To thine own self be true ..." . Here are a few for this article (since I already have them elsewhere).

 * (Facsimile Reprint, New Delhi: Asian Educational Services, 1988. ISBN 8120603036.)
 * (Facsimile Reprint, titled History of Kannada Literature, 1982, New Delhi: Asian Educational Services. ISBN 8120600630.)
 * (This one doesn't need the reprint information since it is available freely online; its link is provided.)  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  19:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Speaking of reprints, I just noticed that Mugali (2006) has been added to the list of references. This too is a facsimile reprint.  It should be, Mugali (1946):

 * (Facsimile reprint: 2006. New Delhi: Read Books. ISBN 1406702323.)

 * Reading very quickly through the text, it seems Mugali is being cited for an earlier (300 AD) date for Halmidi (and perhaps and earlier 850 AD date for the literature). I seem to remember that he didn't quite endorse the 300 AD date for the former.  Will look at the ref, if I still have more time; otherwise, could someone please verify?  Thanks.  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  19:57, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Here you go: "The valuable find of the oldest Kannada inscription at Halmidi (in Mysore State), of c. 450 A. D., has thrown a flood of light on the beginnings of Kannada literature. ... There is another view that Kannada as a language and literature prevailed even from before the Christian era, owing to the fact that a few early epigraphs (of c. 209 and 300 A. D.) are found to be in Kannada and that a few Kannada words are met with in a prakrit work called 'Gathasaptasati' of 200 A. D.' Among other arguments advanced in support of this view, it is stated that the date of the Halmidi inscription is 300 A. D. and that, therefore, it presupposes a linguistic cultivation and literary tradition in Kannada, sufficiently prior to its composition. Though this view is entitled to a careful consideration at the hands of scholars, it appears to us, however, that in the present state of evidence before us, we cannot think of an earlier origin for Kannada literature than 500 A. D., though it is true that Kannada was being cultivated as a language from an earlier period.  .... The antiquity of at least 1,500 years for Kannada literature is not merely a matter of pride but a sure indicator of how long the literarary tradition of Karnataka was maintained and kept alive—a tradition, that deserves to be respected and fostered."  (pp. 175–176) of above book.

 * That doesn't sound, at least to me, to be a ringing endorsement of 300 AD.  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  20:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Please also read this page and the previous one, of someoneorother's hagiographic biography of Govind Pai.  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  20:04, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Great work Fowler, if no-one else does it, I'll correct the refs when I get back to work here.
 * I agree with your reading of Mugali also.
 * I notice that someone provided an external link to a translation of Charition (play).
 * I've added this artifact to the slowly growing Oxyrhynchus papyri series as POxy 413.
 * At some point I'll look harder for any images at Oxford's site, and any record of the Greek text in transcription.
 * I think both are unlikely, but one never knows unless one tries. ;)
 * Alastair Haines (talk) 05:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Actually, the Mugali ref was not meant to indicate that Mugali endorses that date, just that he mentions it in his book as a claim that has been made by some scholars. Eventually, the most common date, 450 AD/5th century, is what wiki should ideally reflect, and as the book clearly suggests, the 1500 years of literary history is widely attested, by versified inscriptions or otherwise.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Per Alastair's comment, I have removed the 300 AD citation for Halmidi. However, other attestations by Mugali (1500 years of literature, 5th century metrical passages etc.) are direct endorsements and have been retained.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Miscellaneous references
I just thought I'd document references I've found online while fact checking, especially date checking the article. I'll add references consulted at Fisher Library when I get around to that, probably later this week.

 * "Inscribed with a date corresponding to 602 A.D., ... [The Mahākuṭa Pillar] is sixty-nine inches round at the base, fourteen and a half feet tall with sixteen lines of inscription, which reads winding up from the base, in Sanskṛit, written in old Kannada script."
 * Carol Radcliffe Bolon, 'The Mahākuṭa Pillar and Its Temples', Artibus Asiae 41 (1979): 253–268.

 * "The most famous of these epigraphs is the Garuḍa pillar inscription of Besnagar (near Sanchi, Madhya Pradesh) usually dated second or first century BC (Sircar 1942:90). Its Prakrit text relates the setting up of a Garuḍa pillar in honor of Vāsudeva by a Greek ambassador Heliodora (=Hēliodōros) of Ta[khkha]silā (=Taxila), the Bhāgavata."
 * Gérard Colas, 'History of Vaiṣṇava traditions: an esquisse', chapter 11 in Gavin D. Flood, The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism, (Blackwell Publishing, 2003): 229–270.

To be extended. Alastair Haines (talk) 09:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm a little confused. What does the second reference have to do with Kannada, its literature, or its region of use, viz. Karnataka?  I have Flood's volume right here, and there is really no mention there of Kannada; what little mention there is of Karnataka is related to the Kalamukhi or Varasaiva/Lingayat traditions, which it mentions were inspired by the earlier Bhakti movement in Tamil Nadu.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  19:39, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

 * It's a real pleasure to hear your politely expressed question regarding the relevance of the second quote above. Of course you are correct, it really has little to do with specifics of the current article.
 * In fact, I hesitated to post it, because it is merely circumstantial evidence related to my own interest in P. Oxy. III 413, where it has been claimed that parts of an adaptation of Euripides are, in fact, fragments of a Kannada dialect. Between you and me, I think that proposal might be a little far fetched, however, were it true, a rather cute twist of history may have led to the first literary appearance of Kannada being a bit part in a Greek play! Now that doesn't settle the antiquity or otherwise of genuine literary composition in Kannada itself, but it is still potentially relevant to this article, admittedly tangentially. I am simply curious about ongoing relationships between Greeks and India after Alexander. How plausible is a familiarity that could lead to POxy 413 sounding like genuine Kannada? I still don't know, but Heliodorus suggests to me that it may well be plausible.
 * My apologies for posting it, I should have simply filed it in my own mental notes. Alastair Haines (talk) 10:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

 * What do you make of Kamat's comment here, Fowler? I expect I'll find the same idea in plenty of print works, but just stumbled on it online today.
 * "[Kavirajamarga] is a treatise on poetics or a guide to poets indicating that Kannada was a fully developed literary language when [it] was composed. It refers to earlier linguists and poets whose works are not forthcoming."
 * Dr. Yotsna Kamat, "History of the Kannada Literature - I", Kamat's Potpourri [e-zine], uploaded 23 May 2000, last revised 10 February 2009.
 * Alastair Haines (talk) 11:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Some books that have caught my eye at Fisher Library:
 * Nayak, Harogadde Manappa (1967). Kannada Literary and Colloquial: A Study of Two Styles. Mysore: Rao and Raghavan. {Fisher call number 494.814 2}
 * Shamasastry, Rudrapatna Mahamahopadhyaya (ed.) (1986). Miscellaneous Inscriptions in Kannada. 2 volumes. South Indian Inscriptions 9. Mysore: The Director (Epigraphy) on behalf of the Director General, Archaeological Survey of India. [Delhi: Manager of Publications, 1939-1941.] {Fisher call number 494.814 3}
 * Bean, Susan S (1978). Symbolic and Pragmatic Semantics: a Kannada System of Address. University of Chicago Press. {Fisher call number 494.8142 2}
 * I note that Nemichandra's Lilavati (1370 AD) is considered to have been the first "novel" (sorry for anachronism) or "medieval romance" in Kannada.
 * I found these general comments from Pollock quite helpful.
 * He notes the distinction between "poetry as a 'natural' activity and its formalization as a component of courtly culture."
 * "One of the procedures of legitimation of kingship in the Sanskrit thought-world was to invoke the presence of a highly sophisticated literary culture. Codes of power such as one finds in inscriptions also had to be products of a highly developed literary culture."
 * Pollock, Sheldon I. "Introduction". Pages 1–38, in Pollock (ed.) Literary Cultures in History, (University of California Press, 2003): 18.
 * More controversially,
 * "It will thus be seen that the literature of Kannaḍa is of far greater antiquity than that of any other South Indian, or for that matter, any other Indian, vernacular, except perhaps that of Tamil."
 * Narasimhacharya, op. cit. (1988): 11. Quoted by Mugali, op. cit. (2006): 176.
 * (Narasimhacharya compares Kannada not only with Tamil but also Telugu and Malayalam, in both epigraphic evidence and manuscript traditions.)
 * Nṛipatuṇga [I notice there is a Nripatunga High School, Nripatunga printers and even Wiki's own User:Nrupatunga] makes some interesting comments in Kavirājamārga.
 * I 32, 34, 35: Bedanḍa and chattāna were poetic forms recognized by earlier [Kannada] poets.
 * I 52, 54, 57: Mixing Kannada with some forms of Sanskrit sounds bad.
 * [Narasimhacharya explains elsewhere (Language): "So we have four classes of words: Samskṛita-sama, Samskṛita-bhava, Prākṛita-sama and Prākṛita-bhava." (116)]
 * Most interestingly (to me), Nṛipatuṇga comments that Old Kannada forms are fine in truly ancient poetry (I 50), but insipid if affected in contemporary metrical composition. [Do not ye ken this of like olde English pretenders?]
 * Here's my current question: "Why would a style guide warn would-be poets not to imitate Old Kannada poetic forms, unless not just imitations, but their exemplars, were extant at the time of writing?" Methinks the Kannada of Nṛipatuṇga may indeed have already been a late form of a literary tradition sufficiently established to tempt pretentious imitation of its earliest sources—in Old Kannada. Nṛipatuṇga inadvertently provides his (astute) perception of distinctions between language forms that meshes with concerns of modern linguistics.
 * Burst my bubble quickly please, Fowler, because I'm drifting into dangerous waters.
 * Alastair Haines (talk) 09:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

 * To Alastair: In the book edited by Pollock (Nagaraj, D.R. (2003) [2003]. "Critical Tensions in the History of Kannada Literary Culture, pp. 323–383". in Sheldon I. Pollock. Literary Cultures in History: Reconstructions from South Asia. Berkeley and London: University of California Press. ISBN 0520228219), D.R. Nagaraj dwells on the criticism by Srivijaya, the theorist in Nrupatunga Amoghavarsha's court, that the "multiplicity of Kannada forms" are like the thousand headed snake Vasuki. An interesting comment and what seems to be a critic on the pre-existing Kannada composition forms, that may have well been banished from patronage from 9th century onward. As one reads along, Nagaraj (if I recall right), when describing the 12th century pure Kannada Vachana poetry says The ghosts of the dead were to come back to haunt or something to that effect. I am purely recalling from memory. All this points in one direction alone.... BTW, Nemichandra's Lilavati is from around 1170. He was a court poet of King Veera Ballala II (Shiva Prakash (1997), p. 203, Rice E. P. (1921), p. 43;  Sastri (1955), p. 358)Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

 * To AH, Hi there! Just noticed these.   Will reply later in the day, once my blood serum levels of caffeine have risen to their normal values.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  15:59, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Edits on related pages
I would like to suggest that no edits be made to related pages such as Extinct Kannada literature, Halmidi inscription by individual editors (other than user:Alastair Haines of course). Edits such as this one by user:Dineshkannambadi, which cites one 1947 source for one inscription are not helpful. What point do we make when we find one 60 year old reference? Fowler&fowler «Talk»  13:55, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that Halmidi has been an issue of contest and has not been touched, but information on other inscriptions can't be withheld. The fact that a book was written 60 years ago does not change its authenticity or the date of an inscription. So please dont make your own rules here. However, if Alastair feels the info I added is unnecessary, he can remove it. However, the Badami cave inscriptions are very well-known inscriptions, whose photos I have uploaded into wiki.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

 * I didn't make the rules. It was you who proclaimed them in your churlish edit summaries in Extinct Kannada literature:
 * "reveted (sic) nonsense untill (sic) conensus (sic) is reached on main artile (sic)" See here for edit summary, and again:
 * "revert. no edits untill (sic) consensus reached on main article Kannada literature,"  see here for edit summary.

 * Perhaps you would like to heed your own injunctions? Besides why are inscriptions that are very much extant being mentioned in the section Extinct writings and forms??  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  19:13, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Corrected the format.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

 * I probably shouldn't poke my nose in here, but I'm hopelessly nosey when I see two awesome Wikipedians irking one another.
 * Each of you has so much to teach me, but my pleasure in your company is laced with grief as I sense the genuine difficulties between you.
 * Friends, I hope you will forgive me daring to suggest that when this is over and the three of us agree, it will be a great triumph of what Wiki at its best can be: one editor motivated to establish a claim from reliable sources, another motivated to ensure that the sources are indeed the best available.
 * It is so easy for me to see from the outside how each of you is acting in good faith. Dinesh is not pushing any POV, just doing the best (and a very good best) with what he can pull together. Fowler is not obstructing, just asking we show common sense in evaluating sources, and what Fowler thinks is common sense is indeed that, as frustrating as it might feel.
 * Although it may feel that you are opposing one another personally, you are actually representing the genuine arguments for and against, that must interact in order to present the facts as they are, no more and no less. Wiki is kind of cruel to us here.
 * Anyway, the more on topic sources I can dredge up the more pressure is taken off both of you. Strangely, I almost feel more motivated by that thought than by the fascinating subject itself. Time for me to stick my nose in some sources instead of this thread. Cheers. Alastair Haines (talk) 11:32, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Vijayanagara literature in Kannada considered for Main Page
There is an ongoing discussion on whether to feature the WP:FA quality article Vijayanagara literature in Kannada on the Main Page.

You may participate at Today's featured article/requests/Vijayanagara literature in Kannada.

Thank you, — Cirt (talk) 17:29, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Flora fauna of Karnataka
Pls give me answer with picture 103.46.201.111 (talk) 12:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kannada literature


text:
Laura, Queensland

Laura is a rural town and locality in the Shire of Cook, Queensland, Australia. In the, the locality of Laura had a population of 133 people.

It is the centre for the largest collection of prehistoric rock art in the world, including Quinkan Country which is on the Australian National Heritage List.

Geography
The locality of Laura is on Cape York Peninsula in Far North Queensland. The town of Laura is on the Peninsula Developmental Road, the only road that extends towards the north of the peninsula, terminating at Weipa.

Laura is only a few kilometres from the southern entrance to Rinyirru National Park (in neighbouring Lakefield).

Quinkan Reserve 1 (also known as East Quinkan Reserve) is a protected area for the rock art in the south of the locality (-15.8166°N, 144.4166°W). Quinkan Reserve 2 (also known as West Quinkan Reserve) is a protected area for the rock art in the east of the locality (-15.6166°N, 144.7166°W).

Apart from the rock art reserves, the land use is predominantly grazing on native vegetation.

History
Aboriginal people have made their home in the Laura River valley for at least 50,000 years. In the wet season, they would camp under rock shelters on the high ground. This is where their rock art can be found. The area was on the borders of Kokowara and Kokojawa lands.

Guugu Yimithirr (also known as Koko Yindjir, Gugu Yimidhirr, Guguyimidjir) is an Australian Aboriginal language of Hope Vale and the Cooktown area. The language region includes the local government area of the Aboriginal Shire of Hope Vale and the Shire of Cook, particularly the localities of Cape Bedford, Battle Camp (in Laura) and sections of the Normanby River and Annan River.

Kuku-Thaypan (also known as Gugu Dhayban, Kuku Taipan, Thaypan) is an Australian Aboriginal language spoken in Hann River, Laura and Musgrave River and on Mornington Island, within the local government boundaries of the Cook Shire.

Some of the earliest pastoral leases on Cape York Peninsula were taken up in the Laura district. However, the town of Laura did not develop until the discovery of gold on the Palmer River.

The town takes its name from the Laura River, which in turn was named in 1873 by explorer and surveyor Archibald Campbell Macmillan after his wife Laura Bower (née Poingdestre).

In 1873 gold was discovered on the Palmer River. Travellers coming from Cooktown to the Palmer Goldfields would cross the Laura River at Laura. This was a very violent period, as local aboriginal clans waged a war of resistance against encroachment on and usurpation of their lands. A Native Mounted Police camp was established near the Lower Laura crossing to protect travellers.

Maytown State School opened circa 1877 and closed in 1917. It reopened in 1924 and closed in 1925.

During the gold boom a railway line was planned between Cooktown and the Palmer gold fields. By 1888 the Cooktown to Laura Railway had been built as far as Laura.

Laura Post Office opened on 8 October 1888.

Laura Provisional School opened on 19 March 1889 and closed in 1903.

The railway was extended towards the Palmer gold fields with an impressive bridge over the Laura River opened, to great fanfare, in 1891. However, since the Palmer gold fields were in decline, a new Queensland Government decided to abandon the project. Only one train ever crossed the bridge - the train that ran on the day that it opened. In 1903 the Queenslad Government closed the railway line, but the Cook Shire Council leased it and operated it until 1904 when the Queensland Government decided to continue its operation of the line.

Following the relocation of the Endeavour River No 1 Provisional School building to the town, it reopened on 28 February 1919 as Laura Provisional School, which operated on a part-time basis with Endeavour River No 2 Provisional School and Endeavour River No 3 Provisional School (meaning one teacher was being shared by three schools). However it did not attract any enrolments and so closed on 31 March 1919. The school building was moved again and reopened as Flaggy Provisional School in conjunction with Endeavour River No 2 and No 3 schools.

The rail line contributed to the growth of Laura. It was used by miners and by peninsula cattle properties. The railway finally closed in 1961.

It was during the 1960s that Quinkan rock art galleries were reported by Percy Trezise, an airline pilot who surveyed the area from the air for likely sites and later walked in to rediscover them.

The current Laura State School opened on 31 January 1968.

Demographics
In the, the locality of Laura and the surrounding area had a population of 225 people.

In the, the locality of Laura had a population of 80 people.

In the, the locality of Laura had a population of 228 people.

In the, the locality of Laura had a population of 133 people.

Heritage listings
Laura has a number of heritage-listed sites, including:
 * Laura to Maytown: Laura to Maytown Coach Road
 * Peninsula Developmental Road: Quinkan Country

Education
Laura State School is a government primary (Early Childhood-6) school for boys and girls at Terminus Street (-15.5575°N, 144.4469°W). In 2018, the school had an enrolment of 7 students with 2 teachers and 6 non-teaching staff (2 full-time equivalent).

There is no secondary school in Laura. The nearest secondary school is Cooktown State School (to Year 12) in neighbouring Cooktown to the east. However, only some parts of the locality are sufficiently close to enable students to commute to school in Cooktown; distance education and boarding schools would be alternatives.

Attractions
Some of the world's most extensive and ancient rock painting galleries surround the town of Laura, some of which are available for public viewing. Laura has an Interpretive Centre from which information on the rock art and local Aboriginal culture is available and tours can be arranged.

It also forms the northern apex of the "Scenic Triangle" between Cooktown, Lakeland, and Laura.

Events
The Ang-Gnarra Aboriginal Corporation is the trustee of the traditional land situated in and around the township of Laura on Cape York Peninsula, who host the Laura Quinkan Dance Festival. A biennial, three day event for communities gathering to celebrate traditional Indigenous music, dance, crafts and stories.

This Laura Quinkan Dance Festival began in the early 1980s and is known as one of the longest running Aboriginal cultural festival in Australia.

In 2009 Tom George an elder of the Kuku Thaypan clan, presented his history and role in establishing the Laura Dance Festival, the traditional weaving exchange occurred at the Laura festival by the Erub Island and Hopevale communities and photographs.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Laura, Queensland


text: User talk:219.77.246.226

title: User talk:219.77.246.226


text:
Tug Hill

Tug Hill, sometimes referred to as the Tug Hill Plateau, is an upland region in northern New York state, notable for heavy winter snows. The Tug Hill region is east of Lake Ontario, north of Oneida Lake, and west of the Adirondack Mountains. The region is separated from the Adirondacks by the Black River Valley.

Although the region was sometimes known as the Tug Hill plateau because its top is flat, it is not a plateau, but rather a cuesta, since it is composed of sedimentary rocks that tip up on one side, rising from about 350 feet on the west to over 2,000 feet in the east.

It covers portions of four Upstate New York counties: Jefferson, Lewis, Oneida, and Oswego.

Geographic scope
The Tug Hill region comprises an expansive ring of rural and agricultural outlying areas surrounding a sparsely populated "core" region. The majority of the region's population is concentrated in villages that are situated primarily at the region's outer edge.

Greater Tug Hill region
The greater Tug Hill region is defined in New York State law as encompassing the following 41 towns in four counties, with a total area of approximately 2100 mi2:

Jefferson County
• Adams

• Champion

• Lorraine

• Rodman

• Rutland

• Watertown

• Worth

Lewis County
• Denmark

• Harrisburg

• Lewis

• Leyden

• Lowville

• Martinsburg

• Montague

• Osceola

• Pinckney

• Turin

• West Turin

Oneida County
• Annsville

• Ava

• Boonville

• Camden

• Florence

• Floyd

• Forestport

• Lee

• Remsen

• Steuben

• Trenton

• Vienna

• Western

Oswego County
• Albion

• Amboy

• Boylston

• Constantia

• Hastings

• Orwell

• Parish

• Redfield

• West Monroe

• Williamstown

Core Tug Hill region
Within the greater Tug Hill area lies the "core" Tug Hill region, defined not by municipal boundaries but rather by its continuous forests, minimal roads and sparse population. The stated size of the Tug Hill's core varies by source, but generally ranges from 235 mi2 to 800 mi2.

History
Prior to European colonization, what was to become known as the Tug Hill region was controlled by the Iroquois Confederacy, specifically the Onondaga and Oneida nations. Tug Hill lands were used by the Iroquois as seasonal hunting and fishing grounds; permanent settlements were located primarily to the south and west of the region. These and other lands were seized from the Iroquois following the American Revolution.

4000000 acres in and around the Tug Hill region were initially purchased by colonial land speculator William Constable, who in turn subdivided the land to sell to New Englanders and newly arrived European immigrants. He also set aside 10,500 acre for regional improvements, such as roads and canals.

Inexpensive land, abundant timber resources, and available farmland drove increased settlement in the region from 1820 to 1880. Expanding railroads and the completion of the Black River Canal in 1851 allowed for increased exports of food and timber products out of the region, often destined for New York City. Dairy farming and timber-based industries flourished in the region throughout the late 1800s, and around 1870, the region's population peaked at 80,000.

However, the Tug Hill's rugged terrain, poor soils, and difficult winters eventually caused many of the region's inhabitants to abandon their farms and settlements. By 1930, most of the region's agriculture and industry was concentrated in the more fertile valleys of the region's northwestern perimeter. Intentional and natural reforestation soon obscured almost all evidence of the core's relatively brief agricultural era.

Geography and ecology
The core Tug Hill region encompasses 150,000 acres of unbroken, generally second-growth, northern hardwood forest, and is drained by a vast network of streams. Important rivers and streams whose headwaters are located within the Tug Hill region include the Mohawk River, Deer River, Salmon River, Mad River, Sandy Creek, and the east and west branches of Fish Creek. Despite the presence of numerous streams, many of the soils in the regions' core are poorly drained. Almost all the soils have some combination of factors which render them unsuitable for agriculture, including shallow depth, stoniness, rough topography, poor or excessive drainage, strong acidity and/or low fertility. Agricultural activity is largely absent from the Tug Hill's core, and is concentrated mainly in the outlying northern and western portions of the region, where soils are better drained and more fertile.

According to the A. W. Kuchler U.S. potential natural vegetation types, the Tug Hill Plateau would have a dominant vegetation type of Northern Hardwoods (106) with a dominant vegetation form of Northern Hardwoods (23). The plant hardiness zone at the Tug Hill Wildlife Management Area is 4a with an average annual extreme minimum air temperature of -29.5 °F. The spring bloom typically peaks around May 13 and fall color usually peaks around September 30.

Although much of the area is controlled by New York State, small, privately owned parcels exist, and most permanent residences are located near state highways or maintained county roads. While hunting camps in the back country areas of the Tug Hill region that are maintained during the hunting season often do not possess electricity or indoor plumbing, the majority of permanent residences in the area feature these amenities. Few roads or villages exist in these more remote areas, and undeveloped reaches of the region are a haven for wildlife, including deer, rabbits, beavers, turkeys, fishers, bobcats, coyote, and the occasional black bear. Salmon, trout, bass, walleye, and waterfowl can be found in the Tug Hill's abundant waterways.

Recreation
The Tug Hill region and its surrounding communities contains numerous attractions and recreational opportunities nestled in its many small villages and hamlets. These include antique shops, flea markets, handmade furniture, gifts and crafts, fishing and hunting guide services, miles of snowmobile trails, restaurants, lodging, bed and breakfasts, campgrounds, boating, canoeing, both down-hill and cross-country skiing, pure maple syrup products, and roadside produce stands.

Climate
According to the Köppen climate classification system, the Tug Hill Plateau has a Warm-summer, Humid continental climate (Dfb). Dfb climates are characterized by at least one month having an average mean temperature ≤ 32.0 °F, at least four months with an average mean temperature ≥ 50.0 °F, all months with an average mean temperature < 71.6 °F and no significant precipitation difference between seasons. Although most summer days are comfortably humid on the Tug Hill Plateau, episodes of warmth and moderate humidity can occur with heat index values > 87 °F. Since 1981, the highest air temperature at the Tug Hill Wildlife Management Area was 91.3 °F on 08/14/2002, and the highest daily average mean dew point was 67.6 °F on 07/17/2015. Since 1981, the wettest calendar day was 4.35 in on 12/28/1984. During the winter months, the average annual extreme minimum air temperature at the Tug Hill Wildlife Management Area is -29.5 °F. Since 1981, the coldest air temperature was -34.3 °F on 01/04/1981. Episodes of extreme cold and wind can occur with wind chill values < -45 °F.

Winter weather
The Tug Hill region is renowned for its bountiful snowfall. The region's topography and location in relation to Lake Ontario often creates ideal conditions for lake-effect snow; snowfall totals for the Tug Hill region average more than 200 in per winter. Tug Hill snowfalls have been described as being among "the most intense storms in the world" in terms of the amount of snow falling during a short period of time. Snow depths commonly reach 5 ft or more, and deeper amounts are routine.

The Tug Hill town of Montague in Lewis County recorded the unofficial New York State 24-hour snowfall record of 77 in in January 1997. Hooker (a hamlet in the town of Montague) holds the state record for snowfall in a single season, after accumulating 466.9 in of snow during the winter of 1976–1977.

On February 12, 2007, the National Weather Service reported on "tremendous" snowfall totals in the Tug Hill region that accumulated between February 3–12. During that ten-day period, the hamlet of Redfield received 141 in of snow, the village of Parish received 121 in of snow, and the hamlet of North Osceola received 106 in of snow.

One architectural feature related to the heavy snowfall can be found locally in some hunting camps: Supplemental, second-floor entry doors. These are located directly above the ground-level front door, and such apertures are used when so much snow has accumulated that the ground-level door cannot be accessed.

title: Tug Hill


text: User talk:65.92.26.159

title: User talk:65.92.26.159


text:
Talk:Hubli

Mangalore is larger and a more developed city than Hubli-Dharwad
Hubli is 2nd largest in Karnataka only in terms of population. Mangalore is much bigger than Hubli and combined Hubli-Dharwad in terms of Economy, International Airport, Major Seaport, Human Development Index, Education and Literacy Rate. Sorry to be blunt, but Hubli is just the centre of the backward North Karnataka region.106.217.93.13 (talk) 12:47, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, agreed on all the points. Mangalore is larger even in terms of Banking and Real-estate. It is sad to know that some people are frequently vandalizing both the Mangalore and Hubli pages and don't understand the true facts. 2401:4900:49AF:E1BB:85A0:FF2C:BD7E:12F9 (talk) 03:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Mangalore might be more developed, but it isn't larger than Hubli-Dharwad. PareeKatti24 (talk) 19:52, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Hubli page is not adhering to Neutral point of view
There are several issues in the Hubli page where Neutrality is violated. 117.230.27.199 (talk) 16:58, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Why IT industries of Belgaum ??
This is a page for Hubballi. But I see IT industry listing of North Karnataka region. Also, There is Lot of Dharwad related information. Please have separate page for those different subjects. I will remove the content in another few days if nobody removes it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lokesh 2000 (talk • contribs) 14:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Mr Lokesh, there not much related information about Hubli, it should be there.

There should separate page for hubballi and dharwad,so that people can seperatly know about the cities.. Akshayklsd (talk) 07:24, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Hubballi dharwad is never a seperate...and hubballi is a Special IT economic zone park.. state government established IT PARK and Central government established Aryabhata IT park.. Sachin alagur (talk) 09:53, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Clean up Needed
The article has become a mess. several sections should go as separate articles but can have links from main article. for example IT industries of north karanataka, Historical regions in north karnataka, information about dharwad should be in their appropriate article. could anybody do the cleanup? I'm finding no time to do the cleanup.

Lokesh 2000 (talk) 04:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

definitely needs a thorough clean up --Crazysoul (talk) 07:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The list of IT industries, colleges, real estate developers, etc, seems more like a reference list than a article. It is better to name one or two major companies and move the rest to sub-articles. Anyone with better knowledge of hubli area may take the initiative to do this and give a better shape to this article --Crazysoul (talk) 18:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Article improvement
I tried to cleanup messy things in the article but it is still horrible. I think we need to remove the list of IT industries and can add a paragraph describing the present IT scenario in the city. Also, Add more content to tourism section. We need to develop this in the same way as Bangalore article. Lokesh 2000 (talk) 08:22, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

SEO Links
There are many links which are no where connected with Hubballi. I guess links are listed for SEO purpose, not for public information. As Lokesh mentioned, it is mess and need serious cleanup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phpses (talk • contribs) 13:07, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Help Review / Clean up
,m./n;l', 1. Personalities of Hubli/Hubbali

2. This page has to be specific to Hubballi or Hubli-Dharwad ?

3. References to commercial entities

4. Overall table of content

--Vinayak Kulkarni (Bangalore) (talk) 07:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Veeragase.jpg
The image Image:Veeragase.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --04:48, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Hubballi or Hubli?
This is to notify that Hubli hasn't yet been renamed Hubballi Yet.

Refer discussion at the page of Bangalore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bangalore/Archive_4#Bangalore_or_Bengaluru.3F

Swaroop (talk) 06:40, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Hubballi Sachin alagur (talk) 09:49, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested Move 2010

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Propaniac (talk) 18:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Hubballi → — Name change to Hubballi not yet approved by Government of India Discussion: Bangalore  Also: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4746303.cms Regards. Swaroop (talk) 17:45, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support We are not governed on Wikipedia by what the Government of India (or any other government) decides, but by common use in English (in this case, as national varieties of English apply, in Indian English).  A quick Google search in English, confined to sources in India, for Hubballi excluding Wikipedia and Hubli gives 257,000 hits; a search for Hubli excluding Hubballi and Wikipedia gives 19,900,000 hits.  Confining that search to hits from the last year produces the same pattern.  Clearly the common use is still Hubli.  Skinsmoke (talk) 11:51, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support No official name change. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose That source quoted by nom is Jun 2009, so outdated. Uber crowds (talk) 12:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Added external link to Hubli - Dharwad City Guide
Request editors to review content on the website http://www.hubli-dharwad-city-guide.com. I myself own the website and hence it would be wise enough if the same is reviewed. If the website does not provide any additional value to Wikipedia visitors, then the same can be removed.

Thanks. Vishalkumarnjain (talk) 12:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't really know the policies relating to this kind of external site stuff, but I guess we cannot review it. But personally, I think its a good start for a site, Regards. Swaroop (talk) 12:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 18 October 2014

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 18:54, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Hubli → Hubballi – Government of India on 17-Oct-2014 cleared renaming 12 cities and towns of the Karnataka state, eight years after receiving a proposal from Karnataka government, Hubli as Hubballi. varma (talk) 11:40, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

 * Oppose WP:COMMONNAME. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 19:05, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose obviously not the commonly recognised name. —innotata 22:48, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. we should stick to WP:COMMONNAME. - Trinidade (talk) 08:59, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

- varma (talk) 11:40, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hubli to Hubballi
Gandu metida nadu namma HUBBALLI

Change in name of Hubli to Hubballi need proper citation, Please add Government Gazette notification to validate this change.(   !dea4u    06:44, 9 November 2014 (UTC))

Navagraha Jain Temple
I would be delighted if someone in Hubli takes a photograph of the Navagraha Jain Temple and uploads this onto Wikimedia Commons. --NearEMPTiness (talk) 23:26, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Combine Hubli/Hubballi article with Hubballi-Dharwad
Hi all,

We all know that the city of Hubballi and Dharwad were merged long back and now they are inseparable. Each and every aspect of the twin cities is collectively presented. Due to this it is very difficult to present good information of the twin cities separately. So I ask you all if we should combine these two cities and present them as one.

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rggourav (talk • contribs) 15:31, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

yes please do combine both cities information.. Sachin alagur (talk) 09:54, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Stop mixing the contents of Hubli-Dharwad with Hubli page
Stop mixing the details of "Hubli-Dharwad" with the "Hubli" article. "Hubli" and "Dharwad" combined, form the 2nd largest city in terms of Area and Population in Karnataka. There is a separate Wikipedia page for "Hubli-Dharwad". Both Hubli and Dharwad are smaller than cities such as Mysore. Please have some common-sense while editing Encyclopedia articles. 2401:4900:16EC:402B:10CD:54C8:CE5:E015 (talk) 03:15, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Agree. I'll be cleaning up Hubli-Dharwad page in the coming week. PareeKatti24 (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Just for clarification, Hubli and Dharwad are not separate cities, the official name of the city is Hubli-Dharwad City not Hubli city and Dharwad city. Also, even if you somehow divide hubli and dharwad, Hubli alone will be larger than Mysore. What we should be doing is removing Hubli and Dharwad city pages and combine them in the Hubli Dharwad City page. That will present the correct and accurate information.

Requested move 20 August 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No evidence provided by the nominator. (closed by non-admin page mover) – Material  Works  15:53, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hubli → Hubballi – common name Anubhavklal (talk) 22:22, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Comment. The name was officially changed in 2014, so a Google news search was done for 1 January 2015 to 21 August 2023.  This shows that both appear to be about equally popular in English-language news media:  Hubli 245 in English Hubballi 241 in English. -- Toddy1 (talk) 20:44, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Speedy close as not moved. The propose also started a move discussion at Talk:Hubli railway division for the railway division named after the city. As with this discussion, the propose merely asserted that the common name is the name he/she chose.  Wikipedia move discussions should be made on the basis of evidence. In addition, the names of the city and the railway division are linked.  It would make more sense to have one discussion that covered all the Hubli/Hubballi articles that would be affected by a move discussion. So please can we close this discussion - and later have a new move discussion that meets these points.  (And if the proposer presents no evidence for the move, to it speedy close it.) -- Toddy1 (talk) 07:55, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree on point that both articles need to be corrected. But I am not sure if they are to be linked together. It is absolutely ok if city name is different than the railway station name or the division name, if ghey are referred so in common use. Eg Lucknow Charbagh station is called so though city name is not Charbagh. Anubhavklal (talk) 08:35, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hubli


text:
User talk:Epiphone83

Welcome
Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Steve block talk 20:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
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Vandalism
This is your last warning. The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. --fvw *  04:37, 2005 Feb 7 (UTC)

Excuse me...
It appears you've accused me of vandalism twice in one evening. I was editing a page on Frederich Nitzchie (forgive my spelling) and another one on the Nazis (entitled simply Nazi) and each time, I was warned that I could be blocked. I clicked on it both times and saw your name. One "warning" occured before I arrived and one occured after.

Now, at first, I thought that when I was editing the Nitzchie page (again, forgive my spelling, it's off the top of my head) I thought it may have been because I had gotten carried away with a certain concept involving the loan translation of one of his most famous concepts. Then, I thought it was because I added "Gun Control" to a list of concepts used by the NAZI party and that it was politically motivated. Then, I looked at your discussion page and saw that you were sort-of trying to delete as many open proxys as you could or something. It's hard for me to understand.

Make no mistake. I was not vandalizing anything. Again, if it's about the Nitzchie page, I'll admit, I may have gotten carried away with the concept that his Übermench is linked to a certain fictional character, but it's still a fact and I don't see how it counts as vandalism, though I do appologize. If, however, you're simply deleting all of the Open Proxys you see, then I'm afraid you're punishing me and possibly other Wikipedia-users arbitrarily.

In the future, keep in mind that any "warning" is an accusation. Unless you cannot assume good faith, I don't think you should "warn" as randomly as you do. Thank you for your time.
 * Linking nazism to gun control is clearly not a good faith attempt at being NPOV, my accusation (and my warning) were entirely justified. If you're going to make controversial edits, discuss them on the talk page first instead and see if you can find support for them. --fvw *  05:24, 2005 Feb 7 (UTC)

WonderCon
Thanks for your article on WonderCon, I've brought it into line with our guidelines and Manual of Style. Did you use any material as sources for your information or is it all from the top of your head? At wikipedia we prefer sourced material, but if you don't have sources I am sure we can soon turn some up. Thanks for your interest. Steve block talk 20:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Al Gordon (comic book artist)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Al Gordon (comic book artist), has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Al Gordon (comic book artist). Thank you. --GentlemanGhost 14:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Waldo Faldo
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Waldo Faldo, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process
 * insignificant unnotable fictional character

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Ejfetters (talk) 20:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Waldo Faldo
I have nominated Waldo Faldo, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Waldo Faldo. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Ejfetters (talk) 10:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

November 2010
Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, such as on Category talk:American multi-instrumentalists, you must sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. Logan (talk) 05:11, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

title: User talk:Epiphone83


text:
Nonylphenol

Nonylphenols are a family of closely related organic compounds composed of phenol bearing a 9 carbon-tail. Nonylphenols can come in numerous structures, all of which may be considered alkylphenols. They are used in manufacturing antioxidants, lubricating oil additives, laundry and dish detergents, emulsifiers, and solubilizers. They are used extensively in epoxy formulation in North America but its use has been phased out in Europe. These compounds are also precursors to the commercially important non-ionic surfactants alkylphenol ethoxylates and nonylphenol ethoxylates, which are used in detergents, paints, pesticides, personal care products, and plastics. Nonylphenol has attracted attention due to its prevalence in the environment and its potential role as an endocrine disruptor and xenoestrogen, due to its ability to act with estrogen-like activity. The estrogenicity and biodegradation heavily depends on the branching of the nonyl sidechain. Nonylphenol has been found to act as an agonist of the GPER (GPR30).

Structure and basic properties
Nonylphenols fall into the general chemical category of alkylphenols. The structure of NPs may vary. The nonyl group can be attached to the phenol ring at various locations, usually the 4- and, to lesser extent, the 2-positions, and can be either branched or linear. A branched nonylphenol, 4-nonylphenol, is the most widely produced and marketed nonylphenol. The mixture of nonylphenol isomers is a pale yellow liquid, although the pure compounds are colorless. The nonylphenols are moderately soluble in water but soluble in alcohol.

Nonylphenol arises from the environmental degradation of nonylphenol ethoxylates, which are the metabolites of commercial detergents called alkylphenol ethoxylates. NPEs are a clear to light orange color liquid. Nonylphenol ethoxylates are nonionic in water, which means that they have no charge. Because of this property they are used as detergents, cleaners, emulsifiers, and a variety of other applications. They are amphipathic, meaning they have both hydrophilic and hydrophobic properties, which allows them to surround non-polar substances like oil and grease, isolating them from water.

Production
Nonylphenol can be produced industrially, naturally, and by the environmental degradation of alkylphenol ethoxylates. Industrially, nonylphenols are produced by the acid-catalyzed alkylation of phenol with a mixture of nonenes. This synthesis leads to a very complex mixture with diverse nonylphenols. Theoretically there are 211 constitutional isomers and this number rise to 550 isomers if we take the enantiomers into account. To make NPEs, manufacturers treat NP with ethylene oxide under basic conditions. Since its discovery in 1940, nonylphenol production has increased exponentially, and between 100 and 500 million pounds of nonylphenol are produced globally every year, meeting the definition of High Production Volume Chemicals.

Nonylphenols are also produced naturally in the environment. One organism, the velvet worm, produces nonylphenol as a component of its defensive slime. The nonylphenol coats the ejection channel of the slime, stopping it from sticking to the organism when it is secreted. It also prolongs the drying process long enough for the slime to reach its target.

Another surfactant called nonoxynol, which was once used as intravaginal spermicide and condom lubricant, was found to metabolize into free nonylphenol when administered to lab animals.

Applications
Nonylphenol is used in manufacturing antioxidants, lubricating oil additives, laundry and dish detergents, emulsifiers, and solubilizers. It can also be used to produce tris(4-nonyl-phenyl) phosphite (TNPP), which is an antioxidant used to protect polymers, such as rubber, Vinyl polymers, polyolefins, and polystyrenics in addition to being a stabilizer in plastic food packaging. Barium and calcium salts of nonylphenol are also used as heat stabilizers for polyvinyl chloride (PVC). Nonylphenol is also often used an intermediate in the manufacture of the non-ionic surfactants nonylphenol ethoxylates, which are used in detergents, paints, pesticides, personal care products, and plastics. Nonylphenol and nonylphenol ethoxylates are only used as components of household detergents outside of Europe. Nonyl Phenol, is used in many epoxy formulations mainly in North America.

Prevalence in the environment
Nonylphenol persists in aquatic environments and is moderately bioaccumulative. It is not readily biodegradable, and it can take months or longer to degrade in surface waters, soils, and sediments. Nonbiological degradation is negligible. Nonylphenol is partially removed during municipal wastewater treatment due to sorption to suspended solids and biotransformation. Many products that contain nonylphenol have "down-the-drain" applications, such as laundry and dish soap, so the contaminants are frequently introduced into the water supply. In sewage treatment plants, nonylphenol ethoxylate degrades into nonylphenol, which is found in river water and sediments as well as soil and groundwater. Nonylphenol photodegrades in sunlight, but its half-life in sediment is estimated to be more than 60 years. Although the concentration of nonylphenol in the environment is decreasing, it is still found at concentrations of 4.1 μg/L in river waters and 1 mg/kg in sediments.

A major concern is that contaminated sewage sludge is frequently recycled onto agricultural land. The degradation of nonylphenol in soil depends on oxygen availability and other components in the soil. Mobility of nonylphenol in soil is low.

Bioaccumulation is significant in water-dwelling organisms and birds, and nonylphenol has been found in internal organs of certain animals at concentrations of 10 to 1,000 times greater than the surrounding environment. Due to this bioaccumulation and persistence of nonylphenol, it has been suggested that nonylphenol could be transported over long distances and have a global reach that stretches far from the site of contamination.

Nonylphenol is not persistent in air, as it is rapidly degraded by hydroxyl radicals.

Environmental hazards
Nonylphenol is considered to be an endocrine disruptor due to its ability to mimic estrogen and in turn disrupt the natural balance of hormones in affected organisms. The effect is weak because nonylphenols are not very close structural mimics of estradiol, but the levels of nonylphenol can be sufficiently high to compensate. The effects of nonylphenol in the environment are most applicable to aquatic species. Nonylphenol can cause endocrine disruption in fish by interacting with estrogen receptors and androgen receptors. Studies report that nonylphenol competitively displaces estrogen from its receptor site in rainbow trout. It has much less affinity for the estrogen receptor than estrogen in trout (5 x 10−5 relative binding affinity compared to estradiol) making it 100,000 times less potent than estradiol. Nonylphenol causes the feminization of aquatic organisms, decreases male fertility, and decreases survival in young fish. Studies show that male fish exposed to nonylphenol have lower testicular weight. Nonylphenol can disrupt steroidogenesis in the liver. One function of endogenous estrogen in fish is to stimulate the liver to make vitellogenin, which is a phospholipoprotein. Vitellogenin is released by the maturing female and sequestered by developing oocytes to produce the egg yolk. Males do not normally produce vitellogenin, but when exposed to nonylphenol they produce similar levels of vitellogenin to females. The concentration needed to induce vitellogenin production in fish is 10 ug/L for NP in water. Nonylphenol can also interfere with the level of FSH (follicle-stimulating hormone) being released from the pituitary gland. Concentrations of NP that inhibit reproductive development and function in fish also damages kidneys, decreases body weight, and induces stressed behavior.

Human health hazards
Alkylphenols like nonylphenol and bisphenol A have estrogenic effects in the body. They are known as xenoestrogens. Estrogenic substances and other endocrine disruptors are compounds that have hormone-like effects in both wildlife and humans. Xenoestrogens usually function by binding to estrogen receptors and acting competitively against natural estrogens. Nonylphenol has been shown to mimic the natural hormone 17β-estradiol, and it competes with the endogenous hormone for binding with the estrogen receptors ERα and ERβ. Nonylphenol was discovered to have hormone-like effects by accident because it contaminated other experiments in laboratories that were studying natural estrogens that were using polystyrene tubes.

Effects in pregnant women
Subcutaneous injections of nonylphenol in late pregnancy causes the expression of certain placental and uterine proteins, namely CaBP-9k, which suggest it can be transferred through the placenta to the fetus. It has also been shown to have a higher potency on the first trimester placenta than the endogenous estrogen 17β-estradiol. In addition, early prenatal exposure to low doses of nonylphenol cause an increase in apoptosis (programmed cell death) in placental cells. These “low doses” ranged from 10−13-10−9 M, which is lower than what is generally found in the environment.

Nonylphenol has also been shown to affect cytokine signaling molecule secretions in the human placenta. In vitro cell cultures of human placenta during the first trimester were treated with nonylphenol, which increase the secretion of cytokines including interferon gamma, interleukin 4, and interleukin 10, and reduced the secretion of tumor necrosis factor alpha. This unbalanced cytokine profile at this part of pregnancy has been documented to result in implantation failure, pregnancy loss, and other complications.

Effects on metabolism
Nonylphenol has been shown to act as an obesity enhancing chemical or obesogen, though it has paradoxically been shown to have anti-obesity properties. Growing embryos and newborns are particularly vulnerable when exposed to nonylphenol because low-doses can disrupt sensitive processes that occur during these important developmental periods. Prenatal and perinatal exposure to nonylphenol has been linked with developmental abnormalities in adipose tissue and therefore in metabolic hormone synthesis and release (Merrill 2011). Specifically, by acting as an estrogen mimic, nonylphenol has generally been shown to interfere with hypothalamic appetite control. The hypothalamus responds to the hormone leptin, which signals the feeling of fullness after eating, and nonylphenol has been shown to both increase and decrease eating behavior by interfering with leptin signaling in the midbrain. Nonylphenol has been shown mimic the action of leptin on neuropeptide Y and anorectic POMC neurons, which has an anti-obesity effect by decreasing eating behavior. This was seen when estrogen or estrogen mimics were injected into the ventromedial hypothalamus. On the other hand, nonylphenol has been shown to increase food intake and have obesity enhancing properties by lowering the expression of these anorexigenic neurons in the brain. Additionally, nonylphenol affects the expression of ghrelin: an enzyme produced by the stomach that stimulates appetite. Ghrelin expression is positively regulated by estrogen signaling in the stomach, and it is also important in guiding the differentiation of stem cells into adipocytes (fat cells). Thus, acting as an estrogen mimic, prenatal and perinatal exposure to nonylphenol has been shown to increase appetite and encourage the body to store fat later in life. Finally, long-term exposure to nonylphenol has been shown to affect insulin signaling in the liver of adult male rats.

Cancer
Nonylphenol exposure has also been associated with breast cancer. It has been shown to promote the proliferation of breast cancer cells, due to its agonistic activity on ERα (estrogen receptor α) in estrogen-dependent and estrogen-independent breast cancer cells. Some argue that nonylphenol's suggested estrogenic effect coupled with its widespread human exposure could potentially influence hormone-dependent breast cancer disease.

Exposure
Diet seems the most significant source of exposure of nonylphenol to humans. For example, food samples were found with concentrations ranging from 0.1 to 19.4 μg/kg in a diet survey in Germany and a daily intake for an adult were calculated to be 7.5 μg/day. Another study calculated a daily intake for the more exposed group of infants in the range of 0.23-0.65 μg per kg bodyweight per day. In Taiwan, nonylphenol concentrations in food ranged from 5.8 to 235.8 μg/kg. Seafood in particular was found to have a high concentration of nonylphenol.

One study conducted in Italian women showed that nonylphenol was one of the highest contaminants at a concentration of 32 ng/mL in breast milk when compared to other alkyl phenols, such as octylphenol, nonylphenol monoethoxylate, and two octylphenol ethoxylates. The study also found a positive correlation between fish consumption and the concentration of nonylphenol in breast milk. This is a large problem because breast milk is the main source of nourishment for newborns, who are in early stages of development where hormones are very influential. Elevated levels of endocrine disruptors in breast milk have been associated with negative effects on neurological development, growth, and memory function.

Drinking water does not represent a significant source of exposure in comparison to other sources such as food packing materials, cleaning products, and various skin care products. Concentrations of nonylphenol in treated drinking water varied from 85 ng/L in Spain to 15 ng/L in Germany.

Microgram amounts of nonylphenol have also been found in the saliva of patients with dental sealants.

Breakdown
When humans orally ingest nonylphenol, it is rapidly absorbed in the gastrointestinal tract. The metabolic pathways involved in its degradation are thought to involve glucuronide and sulfate conjugation, and the metabolites are then concentrated in fat. There is inconsistent data on bioaccumulation in humans, but nonylphenol has been shown to bioaccumulate in water-dwelling animals and birds. Nonylphenol is excreted in feces and in urine.

Analytics
There are standard GC-MS and HPLC protocols for the detection of nonylphenols within environmental sample matrices such as foodstuffs, drinking water and biological tissue. Industrially produced nonylphenol (the source most likely to be found in the environment) contains a mixture of structural isomers, and while these protocols are able to detect this mixture, they are typically unable to resolve the individual nonylphenol isomers within it. However, a methodological study has indicated that better isomeric resolution can be achieved in bulk nonylphenol samples using a GC-MS/MS (tandem mass-analyzer) system, suggesting that this technique could also improve the resolution of nonylphenol isomers in environmental sample analyses; further improvements in the resolution of nonylphenol isomers have been achieved through the use of two-dimensional GC at the separation stage, as part of a GC x GC-TOF-MS system.

In contrast to environmental sample analyses, synthetic studies of nonylphenols have more control over sample state, concentration and preparation, simplifying the use of powerful structural identification techniques like NMR - capable of identifying the individual nonylphenol isomers. In a preliminary investigation of the relationship between nonylphenol sidechain branching patterns and estrogenic potential, the authors identified 211 possible structural isomers of p-nonylphenol alone, which expanded to 550 possible p-nonylphenol compounds when taking chiral C-atoms into consideration. Because stereochemical factors are thought to contribute to the biological activity of nonylphenols, analytical techniques sensitive to chirality, such as enantioselective HPLC and certain NMR protocols, are desirable in order to further study these relationships.

Regulation
The production and use of nonylphenol and nonylphenol ethoxylates is prohibited for certain situations in the European Union due to its effects on health and the environment. In Europe, due to environmental concerns, they also have been replaced by more expensive alcohol ethoxylates, which are less problematic for the environment due to their ability to degrade more quickly than nonylphenols. The European Union has also included NP on the list of priority hazardous substances for surface water in the Water Framework Directive. They are now implementing a drastic reduction policy of NP's in surface waterways. The Environmental quality standard for NP was proposed to be 0.3 ug/L. In 2013 nonylphenols were registered on the REACH candidate list.

In the US, the EPA set criteria which recommends that nonylphenol concentration should not exceed 6.6 ug/L in fresh water and 1.7 ug/L in saltwater. In order to do so, the EPA is supporting and encouraging a voluntary phase-out of nonylphenol in industrial laundry detergents. Similarly, the EPA is documenting proposals for a "significant new use" rule, which would require companies to contact the EPA if they decided to add nonylphenol to any new cleaning and detergent products. They also plan to do more risk assessments to ascertain the effects of nonylphenol on human health and the environment.

In other Asian and South American countries nonylphenol is still widely available in commercial detergents, and there is little regulation.

title: Nonylphenol


text: Template:Rocket-stub

title: Template:Rocket-stub


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Blood alcohol test assumptions

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was MERGE. dbenbenn | talk 16:53, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Blood alcohol test assumptions
A rant about the fairness of tests used to ascertain if a person is under the influence of alcohol. Points out the obvious: human variability introduces a margin of error into medical tests. Has no business being in Wikipedia, though a (heavily edited) sentence or two might be worth adding to the appropriate articles on blood-alcohol testing. jdb ❋ 04:42, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * As far as I know they take into account variability of people in breathalyzer tests. Merge a mention of possible errors in a few sentences into Blood alcohol content and delete. Why isn't there a breathalyzer article? Mgm|(talk) 08:39, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge. There's no reason for this information to not be under Blood alcohol content. --TenOfAllTrades 13:42, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * FWIW a bit of history of the article. About a year ago, this was 80% of the content of drunk driving. Obviously it leaned towards POV, and wasn't central to the issue, so I spun it off (GFDL and all). Also, this was within my first month at Wikipedia, so I might have taken more drastic measures if I had been more experienced. It was also verbatim from another Website, although someone claimed to have gotten permission. And, no, they absolutely do NOT account for variability when it comes to BAC--they use a test to get a number, and everything following obeys that number--it doesn't matter that some people are better drivers, and can pass all field sobriety tests at .30 or higher, while others fail at .06--the number rules, not the level of impairment. I've been reluctant to start the breathalyzer article because it is actually a trademark for a specific brand of breath test device or alcohol breath test device, and who knows what the ideal title is. Niteowlneils 15:57, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and Delete. Any useful, NPOV information should be merged with Blood alcohol content. There are no sources and it seems much more like a rant than a legitimate article. Carrp | Talk 16:03, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with Blood alcohol content, no redirect. Megan1967 05:45, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.