text:
Talk:Stannary law

revived
The sentence 'unlike its predecessors it claims no special relationship with the mining industry' i think should be reworded or deleted since it plainly states its a basis in the mining industry compared to any otheer parliment, although it has always tried to use its maximum juristriction, perhaps something along these lines? 131.111.8.99

This article begins with an etymology that is not even a complete sentence. This is not supposed to be a dictionary. Then it continues in a way that presupposes that the reader is already aware of the existence and nature of the Stannary Parliament and Stannary Courts, rather that explaining. Michael Hardy 03:16, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Attention Notice
I've rewriten the article. I will take down the attention notice in 24 hours unless someone objects. Diderot 16:28, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) Bold text

POV edits by anonymous IP
User:195.92.168.166 has made substantial changes to this article, turning it into a propaganda piece for modern pressure group that uses the title "Cornish stannary parliament".

A lack of neutrality is clear: it describes a member iof the group as "Lord Protector of the Stannaries" without noting that this is a self-assumed title, also the unqualified use of the titles "Keeper of the seal" and "Clerk to the Stannary".

Note also the change of this paragraph:

On 20 May 1974 a pressure group claiming to be a revived Cornish Stannary Parliament assembled in Lostwithiel. The group interpreted the 1508 charter as applying to all descendents of Cornish tin-miners, and claimed that they had the power to veto all laws made in Westminster, not only those relating to the tin and mineral industries.

To: On 20 May, 1974 a revived Cornish Stannary Parliament assembled in Lostwithiel in Cornwall to promote the interests of Cornish culture and heritage. Supporters of the stannaries claimed that although the stannary courts and parliament were embodied in the activities of the tin miners, they were in fact the incarnation of ancient Celtic traditions of the Cornish people.

Material relating to Daffydd Wigley receiving a reply on the charter of pardon has been reinserted. It was removed as it was unverifiable: there appears to be no record of it in parliamentary records of the time. It only appears in old wiki derived sites and those of advocates of the modern group.

There is also a large amount of uncited material added under Operation Chough: information on a meeting in a solicitor's office? This is hardly in the public domain or verifiable.

There is also a new section about an invoice sent to the Duchy of Cornwall in 2001. Again no sources. But detailed inside information.

The sum total of the above: a member of the group or one of their supporters has made the alterations. This changes appear to be in conflict with WP:SOAPBOX, WP:NPOV, WP:V.

Lozleader 20:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

 * My mistake: it was User: 81.78.182.222 who did the changes. The other simply reverted. Lozleader 20:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Deleted text
The Modern Cornish Stannary Parliament On 20 May, 1974 a revived Cornish Stannary Parliament assembled in Lostwithiel in Cornwall to promote the interests of Cornish culture and heritage. Supporters of the stannaries claimed that although the stannary courts and parliament were embodied in the activities of the tin miners, they were in fact the incarnation of ancient Celtic traditions of the Cornish people.

The Cornish Stannary Parliament quote the Charter of Pardon of 1508 as applying to all descendents of Cornish tin-miners, and claimed that they had the power to veto all laws made in Westminster, not only those relating to the tin and mineral industries. (In 1977 the Plaid Cymru MP Dafydd Wigley in Parliament asked the Attorney General for England and Wales if he would provide the date upon which enactments of the Charter of Pardon of 1508 were rescinded. The reply, received on 14 May 1977, stated that the Stannators' right to veto Westminster legislation had never been formally withdrawn).

The 1974 meeting was primarily called in response to a crisis in the china clay industry. Employers in the industry had been forbidden by the pay board from paying their 9,000 workers the higher wages agreed under a productivity deal. The Warden of the Stannaries, Geoffrey Waldegrave, 12th Earl Waldegrave refused an invitation to open the parliament.

On June 24 1974 at a meeting at which the stannators wore Cornish tartan kilts, and at which the Cornish national anthem was played, the Cornish Stannary Parliament proclaimed 18 articles or acts, including the claim to retain all taxes gathered in the Duchy, the declaration of St Piran's flag to be the national flag, a claim on all mineral rights including oil and natural gas, and sought to reverse recent local government reorganisation. A petition was sent to the queen declaring that if she did not recognise the parliament they would seize crown lands and properties. They also sought recognition from the United Nations.

On 12 December 1974 the Home Office replied to the petition, saying that the Home Office could only accept elections by the stannary towns as constitutive of a valid Stannary Parliament. On 15 December, Brian Hambley, (Lord Protector of the Stannaries), said they had decided to postpone the seizure of property in St Austell to give the four town councils an opportunity to appoint stannators. Hambley claimed there was a constitutional crisis and this should be done "immediately to avoid political anarchy".

Cornish Stannary Banknotes On 15 December it was announced that Frederick Trull, "clerk to the stannary", was to issue banknotes in four denominations.

The first issue of notes considered to be by the Cornish Stannary Parliament was made in 1974. Issued by the ‘Cornish National Fund’. The Cornish National Fund was established with the objective of raising revenue to aid it in a campaign for the restitution of Cornwall’s legal right to partially govern itself and to raise appreciation within Cornwall of the aims of the Stannary Parliament.

The banknotes of the 1974 issue consisted of the denominations 5 shillings, 10 shillings, 1 pound and 5 pounds. The 5-shilling note has two shields on the front of the note, one of which carries the colours of the flag of St. Piran, who is the patron saint of tin miners. St. Piran was an Irish monk who ministered the Cornish people around the fifth century. His banner is a white cross on a black background. The colours of this banner have been adopted as the flag of Cornwall for many years, and a flag of this colour was purportedly carried in the battle of Agincourt by the Cornish contingent. The Cornish text on the front of the 5-shilling note can be translated as: ‘The National Fund of Cornwall promises to pay the bearer one day after sight the amount of five shillings.’

The use of the ‘sight’ clause circumvents a legal restriction for issuers of banknotes in England and Wales. Under the Bank Notes Act of 1826, it is illegal to issue a ‘demand’ note for an amount less than 5 pounds, so the 5-shilling, 10-shilling and 1-pound notes issued by the Fund are ‘sight notes’.

The 10-shilling note carries a drawing of the cross of St. Piran on the front of the note and the 1-pound note bears the seal of the Stannary Parliament. Both notes have Cornish text that is the same as the 5-shilling note, except that the value stated is altered for each denomination.

The 5-pound note has a picture of a building found on St Michael’s Mount. The Cornish text on this denomination is distinctive in that it states: ‘The National Fund of Cornwall promises to pay the bearer the amount of five pounds on demand.’ As the note is for 5 pounds, under the Bank Notes Act of 1826 it can be payable on demand.

The back of each note is virtually the same. Each note carries the same illustration of Restormel Castle in the stannary town of Lostwithiel. In the top left are the initials ‘AKK’ for ‘Arghow Kenethlek Kernow’, which translates as ‘Cornish National Fund’. The initials of the English name, ‘CNF’, appear the lower right. At the bottom left of the note is the promissory clause in English. The change in wording of this clause for each value is the only difference for the back of each denomination.

Dated 1974, the notes are designed by Brian Hambley, who was the Lord Protector of the Parliament at that time. It is not known if they were sold at a premium, nor how many of the notes were issued. The issued notes were presumably numbered by hand on their front. In 1985 the Cornish Stannary Parliament issued notes of two denominations of 50 pence and 1 pound. The notes are once again ‘sight notes’, in that they are payable at one day’s notice. In what appears to have been a fund-raising exercise, the Cornish Stannary Parliament printed and sold their notes at a premium, with the notes being sold as a matched pair. The front of each note bears a seal of the Parliament at the left, below which is the denomination of the note. The 1-pound note displays ‘£1’ but the half pound note has ‘50 dynar’. Most of the note is dominated by text in the Cornish language. A translation of the text on the front of the notes reads (for the 50-dynar note): ‘The Stannary Parliament of Cornwall promises to the bearer one day after sight the amount of half a pound.’ To the lower centre-left is ‘Cambron 1985’. ‘Cambron’ translates as ‘Camborne’ and Camborne Hill is relevant to the subject on the back of the notes. The notes are signed by the ‘Arghanser’ or ‘Treasurer’.

The back of each note carries images of Richard Trevithick and an early railway steam locomotive. Above the locomotive is a banner, which names and dates the steam engine as ‘Pen-y-darren Locomotive 1804’. A card, which accompanied the issue, explains the significance of Tevithick and his engine.

Other Actions Following an incident on February 26 1975 when Frederick Trull, (clerk to the stannary) attempted to arrest the clerk and magistrate while being tried for a motoring offence at St Austell Magistrate's Court, he was found guilty of using threatening words and behaviour with intent to provoke a breach of the peace on June 2, 1975. He produced twenty-five pages of documents in an attempt to prove that the court had no jurisdiction, but was fined, ordered to pay costs and bound over to keep the peace for 12 months. He was subsequently dismissed from his post as clerk and expelled from the organisation. The banknotes, which bore Trull's signature, were burnt.

The CSP next hit the headlines in 1978, again at St Austell Magistrate's Court. Brian Hambley (Lord Protector of the Stannaries) had been charged with having failed to pay motor tax, and displaying the stannary seal in place of a tax disc. His defence was that he was exempt from the court's jurisdiction as he was a "privileged tinner", having staked out several acres of moorland with a view to working them for tin on land belonging to the lord-lieutenant of Cornwall. After two and a half hours consultation the magistrates agrred they had no jurisdiction. .

The following day a court in Bodmin adjourned a similar case sine die against Frederick Trull. On July 11, a specially convened stannary court, under the county court, declared that the lands Hambley claimed to have staked were already bounded, and ordered him to pay the landowners' costs. By the end of July over a hundred people were refusing to pay road tax in Cornwall, but a decision of the High Court gave the Home Office leave to quash the original magistrate's decision.

The group's next large campaign was in 1989, and related to the introduction of the unpopular community charge or poll tax. They claimed that as the law imposing the charge had not been approved by the Stannary Parliament "all tin-miners and former tin-miners, all descendants of tin-miners, all shareholders in tin-mines and anyone who supplied equipment for tin-mining" were exempt from the tax. Shares were made available for sale in the Royal Cornish Consols United Tin Mines Cost Book Company at one pound each, the claim being that shareholders would not be liable for the charge. The company was owned by Frederick Trull, who had rejoined the group as its clerk. By March 1990 up to one and a quarter million applications for shares had been made. On March 22 the Department of Trade and Industry was granted an injunction in the High Court freezing the company's assets on the grounds that the company was not registered under the Companies Act 1985 and that Mr Trull was not authorised under the Financial Services Act 1986 to conduct investment business. On June 27 the company was placed in receivership, with shareholders potentially facing the payment of costs.

On September 5 the receiver announced that Trull had vanished and that there was no trace of the estimated 1 million pounds paid by members of the public. On October 12 Trull was found guilty of contempt by breaching High Court orders to stop issuing shares and for failing to disclose the whereabouts of the money. He was sentenced in his absence to six months imprisonment. The presiding judge, Mr Justice Harman, said "The matter may be based on a genuine belief by Mr Trull in the privileges of Cornish tin miners but has all the appearance of being a con trick." On[February 22 1991, Trull appeared before the High Court, and his sentence was reduced to three months and suspended for two years, on the condition that he undertook to help the Department of Trade and Industry recover the money invested by the public. Mr Trull's counsel, told the court that the money had gone to "the sharks of this world" and that Mr Trull was "fired not by dishonesty, but by obsessive belief in the Stannary laws". Mr Trull remained clerk of the parliament and in November was again before the courts claiming the Bodmin magistrates had no jurisdiction to make orders for payment against him on behalf of Restormel Borough Council as a privileged tinner within the Stannaries of Cornwall. The case was finally settled against Mr Trull in 1994

Operation Chough Following rejection of a separate "Cornish Heritage" organisation for Cornwall by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in August 1998 and the refusal of the Home Office to extend the provisions of the "Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities" to the Cornish in February 1999, the Cornish Stannary Parliament commenced a new direct action campaign they termed "Operation Chough". The organisation wrote to English Heritage ordering them to remove all signs bearing that title from sites in Cornwall by July 31 1999. During 2000 - the Bailiff of the Cornish Stannary Parliament with the authority of the Stannary Charter of Pardon of 1508, confiscated 18 English Heritage signs at archaeological sites in Cornwall - each removal notified to English Heritage by fax and details placed on Cornish Heritage web site and the police notified in September. Over eleven months eighteen signs were removed from sites in Cornwall including Carn Euny, Chysauster, Pendennis Castle and Tintagel.

The "Keeper of the Seal of the Stannary Parliament" wrote to English Heritage saying "The signs have been confiscated and held as evidence of English cultural aggression in Cornwall. Such racially motivated signs are deeply offensive and cause distress to many Cornish people". ""Pre-English archaeological sites of Celtic Cornwall are falsely described as the heritage of the English people for English racial advantage. De facto political power insufficient authorisation in international law for the denial of the right for Cornish cultural heritage to exist as an official and separate expression of humanity. A denial of the "pristine honours" provision for Cornish culture in Duchy of Cornwall Charter 1337.""

12th December 2000 - Camborne Magistrates Court - Case transferred to Crown Court.

9th August 2001 - Truro Crown Court - Postponement agreed. Judge Rucker expresses the opinion "these people are here for publicity" "this is political" etc. "I want this case listed for me".

The legal team were presented by Stannator Colin Murley with hard copies of Foreshore Dispute and Articles of Agreement in the Cornwall Submarine Mines Act 1858 between Crown and Duchy of Cornwall as the government of Cornwall per Duchy Charters of 1337/8 and "the general law concerning Duchy rights, powers and privileges" referred to in the Tamar Bridge Act 1998. Also papers and floppy discs on "Stannary Ownership of the Soil" validity of 1508 Charter of Pardon through constitutional law as enshrined in the Statute in Force, Royal Mines Act 1693 in contrast to Duchy 'rights' to back date its claims to property in Cornwall. In addition reference documents on International Human Rights for national minorities and relevant case law. Barristers accept presenting Court with Skeleton Argument on challenge to jurisdiction of court in relation to 1508 Charter plus requiring from Crown Prosecution Service proof of ownership of archaeological sites by English Heritage and disclosure to the Defence of documents and information obtained that may be result of official surveillance and/or the subject of a Public Interest Immunity Certificate.

Barrister Mike Fitton agreed with Stannary protests and sent a letter to Truro Crown Court asking Judge Rucker to withdraw from the case on account of his bias. On 11th September 2001Judge Rucker declared that he has directed that a judge other than himself will try the case.

26th October 2001 - Truro Crown Court - Barristers fail to obtain adjournment of Case from the date fixed 14th January 2002. All resign from case owing to other commitments.

28th November 2001 - Conference at Solicitor's Office at Bristol. Present Rodney, Hugh, Nigel and Colin. Introduced to new Barristers. Michael Shrimpton rejects validity of 1508 Charter. Wants to concentrate on National Heritage Act 1983 by which the "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England" is not authorised to name itself "English Heritage", under section 32, or extend its activities to Cornwall, under section 42. Stannary wants emphasis on "the stannaries" as legal and constitutional through being a "territorial possession" in Duchy of Cornwall Charter/Act of Parliament 1337. This negates Duchy claims to be a private estate. The Duchy of Cornwall is legally classified as "a mode of descent unknown to the common law".

14th December 2001 - Stannators Rodney Nute, Hugh Rowe, Nigel Hicks and Colin Murley hold a conference with their solicitors at Bristol. Summary presented on all aspects considered relevant by Cornish Stannary Parliament -including, Stannary ownership of Cornish archaeological sites preserved for centuries under the provisions of Stannary law.

3rd January 2002 - Crown Prosecution Service is granted a "Public Interest Immunity Certificate" by Judge Cottle at Exeter Crown Court to block certain disclosures to the Defence.

Monday 14th January 2002 - Truro Crown Court - Judge Cottle presiding. Crown Prosecution Service requests an out of Court Settlement. Defence agree to pay £4,500.00 towards expense of new Cornish designs for signs at Cornish Archaeological sites and return old illegal "English Heritage" signs confiscated.

Friday 18th January 2002 - Judge enters a verdict of "not guilty" concerning actions of Cornish Stannators Rodney Nute, Hugh Rowe, Nigel Hicks.

The conclusion was that English Heritage could not justify its policies to win the case against the Cornish Stannary Parliament and the Crown Prosecution Service retreated from the prospect of the Cornish Stannary Parliament presenting evidence exposing the illegality of acts by various government departments. The enforced withdrawal of a Judge, the resignation of the first three Barristers, the change of the charge from "theft" to "conspiracy to commit criminal damage" and the introduction at a late stage of a "Public Interest Immunity Certificate", together offer compelling evidence of political interference with the course of justice.

19th January 2002 - Report in the London "Guardian" entitled:- "How 3 Cornishmen and a raid on King Arthur's castle rocked English Heritage". The Western Morning News published an in depth report and reports a "politically correct' mud slinging attempt by 'Cornwall Colonial Council' spokesperson Mike Gillbard", without asking him why none of the English political parties represented at 'Colonial Hall' have never passed a motion accepting the right of the Cornish Celts and their culture to exist officially.

On 20th January 2002 BBC1 Television Service invites stannators Rodney Nute and Nigel Hicks to participate in an evening discussion programme regarding the case, which was accepted, but later the BBC mysteriously withdrew the offer.

Recovery of Unauthorised Overcharge on Tin Production by the Duchy of Cornwall On 15 May 2000 an invoice from the Cornish Stannary Parliament was sent to the Duchy of Cornwall with regards to the recovery of unauthorised overcharges on tin production by the Duchy of Cornwall. It claimed that the excessive taxation was contrary to the provisions of Magna Carta, the Stannary Charters of 1305 & 1508, Duchy Charters of 1337/8, the Case of Mines 1568 & the Royal Mines Act 1693 AD and without parliamentary authority. It claimed that the Duchy of Cornwall has failed to address the underlying cause of the dispute why Cornwall was charged at over twice the coinage, or tax on tin production, as that levied upon Devon. This policy was applied over a period of centuries to the detriment of generations of Cornish stannars or "tinners at large" and their "heirs" as defined by Stannary charter, (1508). The Cornish Stannary claimed that research by G.R.Lewis of Harvard University, in his book "The Stannaries", indicated a racial motive for overcharging Celtic Cornwall. Cornwall clearly came within the definition given in the Duchy of Cornwall charters (1337/8), (an inheritance for the "heirs" of the original Duke), as, "other lands subjected to our dominion", in other words, not England.

 * BBC news 18 January, 2002 - Historic signs case trio bound over

 * CSP Invoice

 * The bit about the banknotes is in breach of copyright, being lifted from Lozleader 21:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Moved Revived Stannary to its own page
Because the "Revived Stannary" is substantially different from the old one, and because material about the Revived Stannary fits poorly into the page and was beginning to dominate it by volume, I have moved all the material related to it to a new page, leaving (hopefully) a neutral introduction to the subject on this page. --Diderot 15:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of doing the same thing for the same reasons. Lozleader 19:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Stannary Districts: suitable source?
I came across this (it's a whopping 11 MB PDF file). It's an undergraduate thesis from a student at Harvard, privately published in 1908. It contains some useful/interesting information: in particular it describes the stanary districts on page 89, information we don't have but ought to. My question: is a student's thesis like this good enough to cite and use as a source? Lozleader 11:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * OK we can always look for better but this strikes me as worthwhile. If it was a good students work it's probably great and the date of it makes it interesting at the very least - good find -- Herby  talk thyme 11:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Only active veto of legislation ?
''The 1508 Charter states, "No [Westminster] Act or Statute shall have effect in the Stannaries without the assent and consent of the twenty-four stannators." Acting in its capacity as appeal court for the colonies, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council has declared that any reference to The Stannaries means the whole of Cornwall. I think this means that no act made after the last meeting of the Stannery parliament can have any effect in Cornwall. The right to "veto the legislation", as stated in the article sounds like the parliament had to make a dicision to stop the acts. Does anybody know which laws before the last meeting were not assented? And what sense does the sentence ''"The 1508 Charter states, "No [Westminster] Act or Statute shall have effect in the Stannaries without the assent and consent of the twenty-four stannators." Acting in its capacity as appeal court for the colonies, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council has declared that any reference to The Stannaries means the whole of Cornwall." make? I didn't know Cornwall was a colony.--Son sonson 12:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Heirs and Successors
This Wiki article is lame. It seems to be determined to give credence to the UK government's claim that "there are no valid stannary organisations", but fails to mention that the Charter of Pardon recognises "the heirs and successors of tinners" (ie. the whole population of the Cornwall). If one wants to mention the views of Westminster politicians then you should also mention contrary views. Not providing balance is simply POV / bias. This article needs a complete rewrite by someone with a good working knowledge of the charters (particularly the Charter of Pardon) and who won't simply leave out valuable information because they are trying to disprove Cornwall's constitutional position (or indeed prove it)!! Artowalos (talk) 17:06, 2 June 2013 (UTC)artowalos

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title: Talk:Stannary law


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Na people

The Nah people are a small tribal group residing in the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh. They speak the Na language, a member of the Sino-Tibetan language family, in which the population's literacy rate is 30%. The Na language has an affinity with the Tagin language. They also use Hindi or English. As of 2000, the tribal population stood at 1,500.

History
The Nah were believed to have migrated South from the north in Tibet following racial persecution from the Tibetans, but later engaged in trade with the Tibetans after the Nishi served as a mediator between the two groups until recent times. However, relations with their neighbors were often unstable; for instance, the shift of preference of their northern Tibetan trading partners in a 1906 incident resulted in a massacre which claimed many lives from their tribal group.

The Nah are adherents of Tibetan Buddhism but are also influenced by pre-Buddhist Shaman practices. Both Buddhist Lamas and traditional Shamans, known as Nyibu in the native tongue, are employed for religious occasions.

Like most tribes living in higher elevations, they build permanent houses made of stone and cultivate the usable land. One can see villages with terraced fields growing maize, millet, barley, etc. They breed domestic animals including yaks and sheep, and their clothes are made of spun wool.

Origin
The Nah are more closely related to the Tagin both ethnically and linguistically than to Tibetans, but they claim to be a separate group, like the Mara who live in Limeking. However, both tribes acknowledge that they share a common ancestry with the Tagin.

In all official censuses the Naga are classified together with the Tagin, who are ethnically related to them.

Distributions
They found mainly in the Upper Subansiri district in villages within Taksing circle: Gumsing, Taying, Esnaya, Lingbing, Tongba, Yeja, Reding, Redi, Dadu villages.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Na people


text:
Franz von Waldeck

Count Franz von Waldeck (1491 – 15 July 1553) was Prince-Bishop of Münster, Osnabrück, and Minden in the Lower Rhenish–Westphalian Circle of the Holy Roman Empire. He suppressed the Münster Rebellion, a millenarian Anabaptist theocratic insurrection which occupied the fortified city of Münster.

Biography
Franz was the son of Count Philip II of Waldeck-Eisenberg (1453–1524), who while being originally destined for the ministry, took a greater interest in his family's more worldly duties and thus became governor of the County of Ravensberg. His mother was the Countess Catherine von Solms-Lich (1467–1492), daughter of Count Kuno von Solms-Lich and Countess Walpurgis von Dhaun. Franz was the third and last son of six children of Count Phillip and Countess Catherine. A year after Franz's birth, his mother died.

Franz von Waldeck was early on destined to fulfill his father's original ambition for a place in the aristocratic cathedral chapter. Because chapter members were required to obtain a secular law degree, Franz began studying in Erfurt in 1506 and moved to Leipzig in 1510. Without having received sacred orders, he did receive numerous "Kanonikerpräbenden". Franz was, among other things, a canon in Cologne, Trier, Mainz and Paderborn, as well as dean of St. Alexander's Foundation in Einbeck.

Franz von Waldeck's attitude towards the Reformation was ambiguous. In the early 1530s, the city of Münster embraced the Reformation, but soon fell under the control of the radical Bernhard Rothmann. Von Waldeck took action against the city, including the confiscation of goods owned by city merchants. In February 1533, both sides settled their differences with the Treaty of Dülmen. Von Waldeck conceded full religious freedom to the city.

When the Lutheran movement gave way to the radical Anabaptists in the annual council election on 23 February 1534, Waldeck besieged the city. On Easter Sunday, 1534, Anabaptist leader Jan Matthys led a small band out of the city and was defeated and killed. John of Leiden then installed himself as king of the city of New Jerusalem (Münster). During the following siege, Hille Feicken attempted to murder him by the example of Judith and Holophernes. With the help of the Holy Roman Empire and a traitor from within, Waldeck's troops took the city back on 24 June 1535.

Münster was re-Catholicised, and Waldeck used his influence to further the teachings of Luther. His Reformation efforts in 1541 met with unified resistance in the Bishopric of Münster. In 1543 in Osnabrück, together with Lübeck Superintendent Herman Bonnus, Waldeck planned to introduce the Reformation. In Minden, where the Lutheran doctrine had been widely accepted even before he took office, Franz attempted in 1535 to reach out to the balance of the city beyond just the cathedral chapter. These efforts at aiding the Reformation were closely linked to his desire to have his relationship with Anna Polmann legalized and to have the three dioceses of Münster, Osnabrück, and Minden secularized, in order to create a secular territory for his heirs.

Marriage and issue
In Einbeck, Waldeck met Anna Polmann (1505–1557), the daughter of local linen weaver Barthold Polmann. They lived in a marriage-like relationship, having eight children: four sons and four daughters. Whether or not the couple entered into a proper marriage is unclear. His children were:

 * Franz von Waldeck, Jr. (1524–?), who became a clergyman
 * Barthold von Waldeck (1536–?), a clergyman
 * Phillipp von Waldeck (1538–1605), a clergyman
 * Elizabeth Catherina von Waldeck (1540–1579), married Wernerus Crispinus (1535–1604)
 * Johanna von Waldeck (1540–1572)
 * Ermegard von Waldeck (1542–?)
 * Christoph von Waldeck (1543–1587), married Agnes Pagenstecher (1545–1606)
 * Katherina von Waldeck (1544–1597).

title: Franz von Waldeck


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GE Dash 9-44CW

The GE C44-9W is a 4,400 hp diesel-electric locomotive built by GE Transportation Systems of Erie, Pennsylvania. Keeping in tradition with GE's locomotive series nicknames beginning with the "Dash 7" of the 1970s, the C44-9W was dubbed the Dash 9 upon its debut in 1993.

Part of GE's "Dash 9" series of locomotives, the Dash 9-44CW shares its frame, HiAd trucks, 16-cylinder 7FDL engine, and 752AH-31 traction motors with the GE Dash 9-40CW. But while the more common 9-44CW offers 4,400 horsepower (3,300 kW), software in the 9-40CW's engine-governing unit restricts its power output to 4,000 horsepower (3,000 kW).

The design has since proven popular with North American railroads, although some railroads, such as CSX and Canadian Pacific, preferred its AC equivalent, the AC4400CW. Because of more stringent emissions requirements that came into effect in the United States on January 1, 2005, the Dash 9-44CW has been replaced in production by the GE ES44DC.

Many North American railroads have ordered the C44-9W. They were originally ordered by Chicago & North Western Railway, Santa Fe, BNSF, CSX, Southern Pacific, Canadian National Railway, BC Rail, and Union Pacific Railroad. Norfolk Southern purchased the very similar Dash 9-40CWs.

Rebuilds
The BNSF AC44C4M is an Ex-ATSF GE C44-9W rebuilt with AC traction motors and an A1A-A1A wheel arrangement. The internal controls are similar to those of the newer GE ES44C4.

title: GE Dash 9-44CW


text: User talk:81.153.215.57

title: User talk:81.153.215.57


text:
Siege mentality

In sociology, siege mentality is a shared feeling of victimization and defensiveness—a term derived from the actual experience of military defences of real sieges. It is a collective state of mind in which a group of people believe themselves constantly attacked, oppressed, or isolated in the face of the negative intentions of the rest of the world. Although a group phenomenon, the term describes both the emotions and thoughts of the group as a whole, and as individuals.

The result is a state of being overly fearful of surrounding peoples, and an intractably defensive attitude.

The related term bunker mentality may be used in the context of businesses facing competition or downsizing, with a similar paradigm applying to some religious groups.

Characteristics
Among the consequences of a siege mentality are black and white thinking, social conformity, and lack of trust, but also a preparedness for the worst and a strong sense of social cohesion.

Examples
Historically, siege mentalities existed in the Soviet Union, Communist People's Socialist Republic of Albania, Rhodesia, Apartheid South Africa, and Northern Ireland during The Troubles, as a result of ideological or political isolation.

In the present day, siege mentalities have also been described with regards to countries such as Israel and North Korea; in the latter it is arguably encouraged by the government to help justify their continuance in power. Further contemporary examples of states in which a siege mentality is prevalent may include Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Republic of China, Venezuela, Poland and Cuba.

Within the United States, the siege mentality has been used to conservative Southerners following the American Civil War, and later on the Southern Strategy and supporters of Donald Trump, especially towards the federal government. The politics of U.S. Evangelicals in particular were cited by the New York Times in 2017 as reflecting a siege mentality.

Sociologically, the term may refer to persecution feelings by anyone in a group that views itself as a threatened minority, as with the early psychoanalysts. This can be used for example in the field of sports, where coaches or managers often create a siege mentality in their players by highlighting an environment of hostility from outside the club (whether the hostility is real or exaggerated is irrelevant).

Siege mentalities are particularly common in business, the result of competition or downsizing, though here the (smaller-scale) alternative of "bunker mentality" (analogous to soldiers who have taken shelter in a bunker) may be used. Some religious groups may have this paradigm, particularly if they are not traditional mainstream groups.

Literary analogies
Seamus Heaney used the phrase "Besieged within the siege" to describe the feeling of the beleaguered Catholic minority in Northern Ireland within the broader siege mentality of the Protestant community itself.

title: Siege mentality


text:
Talk:Taygete

Comments
As the Wikipedia article says:

"Artemis turned Taygete into a doe, and since in this form Zeus raped her, any distinction between the Titaness in her human form and in her doe form is blurred. As Pindar conceived the myth-element in his third Olympian Ode, "the doe with the golden horns, which once Taygete had inscribed as a sacred dedication to Artemis Orthosia," ("right-minded" Artemis) was the very Cerynian Hind that Heracles later pursued. For the knowledgeable poet, the transformation was incomplete, and the doe-form became an offering."

My question is about this part:

"For the knowledgeable poet, the transformation was incomplete, and the doe-form became an offering."

What does this mean the incomplete transformation as an offering? (Anon. User:70.178.238.83)

 * Terrible! That was me that wrote that baffling babble. Is this edited version better?

 * "Artemis turned Taygete into a doe, and since in this form Zeus raped her, any distinction between the Titaness in her human form and in her doe form is blurred: the nymph who hunted the doe in the company of Artemis is the doe herself. As Pindar conceived the myth-element in his third Olympian Ode, "the doe with the golden horns, which once Taygete had inscribed as a sacred dedication to Artemis Orthosia," ("right-minded" Artemis) was the very Cerynian Hind that Heracles later pursued. Pindar, who was a very knowledgeable mythographer, hints that the mythic doe, even when slain and offered to Artemis, also continues to exist, to be hunted once again (though not killed) by Hercules at a later time."

 * Would that be better? Very embarrassing. Pindar is obscure, but Wikipedia shouldn't be... --Wetman 05:08, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Add Link to the star Taygeta, in the Pleiades cluster
might be a good idea, as it is named for herLily20 (talk) 17:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Taygete


text:
User:Spattison

Charlotte was almost alone, in the whole valley. She paused as she hung out her laundry to scan the narrow hot scrublands leading down to the Okanagan River. Just turned 19, just married, and now the only white woman at this lonely frontier post, she was Charlotte Moresby, daughter of a widow in New Westminster, and niece of Admiral Fairfax Moresby who commanded the Pacific Squadron for the British Empire: a lonely girl for all that. Her husband rode away alot on business. Her husband, Judge John Haynes, directed the Customs Office at Sooyoos by the American Border, alongside old trading and gold rush trails. Visitors were infrequent, and rough. It was very hot.

title: User:Spattison


text: User talk:69.140.179.19

title: User talk:69.140.179.19


text:
Back-stripping

Back-stripping (also back stripping or backstripping) is a geophysical analysis technique used on sedimentary rock sequences. It is used to quantitatively estimate the depth that the basement would be in the absence of sediment and water loading. This depth provides a measure of the unknown tectonic driving forces that are responsible for basin formation (otherwise known as tectonic subsidence or uplift). By comparing backstripped curves to theoretical curves for basin subsidence and uplift it is possible to deduce information on the basin forming mechanisms.

The technique developed by Watts & Ryan in 1976 allows for the recovery of the basement subsidence and uplift history in the absence of sediment and water loading and, therefore isolate the contribution from the tectonic forces responsible for the formation of a rift basin. It is a method by which successive layers of basin fill sediment are "stripped off" the total stratigraphy during analysis of that basin's history. In a typical scenario, a sedimentary basin deepens away from a marginal flexure, and the accompanying isochronous strata typically thicken basinward. By isolating the isochronous packages one-by-one, these can be "peeled off" or backstripped - and the lower bounding surface rotated upward to a datum. By successively backstripping isochrons, the basin's deepening history can be plotted in reverse, leading to clues as to its tectonic or isostatic origin. A more complete analysis uses decompaction of the remaining sequence following each stage of the back-stripping. This takes into account the amount of compaction caused by the loading of the later layers and allows a better estimation of the depositional thickness of the remaining layers and the variation of water depth with time.

General Theory

As a result of their porosity, sedimentary strata are compacted by overlaying sedimentary layers after deposition. Consequently, the thickness of each layer in a sedimentary sequence was larger at the time of its deposition than it is when measured in the field. In order to consider the influence of sediment compaction on the thickness and density of the stratigraphic column, the porosity must be known. Empirical studies show that the porosity of rocks decreases exponentially with depth. In general we can describe this with the relationship:

where $$\phi$$ is the porosity of the rock at depth $$z$$, $$\phi_0$$ is the porosity at the surface and $$c$$ is a rock specific compaction constant.

Back-stripping Equation
The fundamental equation in back-stripping corrects the observed stratigraphic record for the effects of sediment and water loading and changes in water depth, and is given by:

where $$ Y $$ is the tectonically driven subsidence, $$ S $$ is the decompacted sediment thickness, $$\rho_s$$ is the mean sediment density, $$ W_d $$ is the average depth at which the sedimentary units were deposited, $$ \rho_w $$ and $$ \rho_m $$ are the densities of the water and mantle respectively, and $$ \Delta_{SL} $$ the difference in sea-level height between the Present and the time at which the sediments were deposited. The three independent terms account for the contributions of sediment loading, water depth and sea-level oscillations to the subsidence of the basin.

Derivation
To derive equation ($$) one should first consider a 'loaded' column that represents a sedimentary unit accumulated over a certain geological time period, and a corresponding 'unloaded' column that represents the position of the underlying basement without the effects of the sediments. In the scenario, the pressure at the base of the loaded column, is given by:

where $$W_d$$ is the water depth of deposition, $$c$$ is the mean thickness of the crust, $$S$$ is the sediment thickness corrected for compaction, $$g$$ is the average gravity and $$\rho_w$$,$$ \rho_s$$ and $$\rho_c$$ are the densities of water, the sediment and the crust respectively. The pressure at the base of the unloaded column is given by:

where $$ Y $$ is the tectonic or corrected subsidence, $$\rho_m$$ is the density of the mantle, and $$b$$ is the distance from the base of the unloaded crust to the depth of compensation (which is assumed to be at the base of the loaded crust) and is given by:

Substitution of ($$),($$) and ($$) after simplifying, we obtain ($$).

Multi-layer Case
For a multi-layered sedimentary basin, it is necessary to successively back-strip each individually identifiable layer separately to obtain a complete evolution of the tectonic subsidence. Using equation ($$),a complete subsidence analysis is performed by stepwise removal of the top layer at any one stage during the analysis and performing back-stripping as if for a single layer case. For the remaining column, mean densities and thickness must be used at each time, or calculation, step. Equation ($$) then becomes the tectonic amount of subsidence during sedimentation of the top most layer only. In this case $$ L^*$$ and $$\rho_L$$ can be defined as the thickness and density of the entire remaining sedimentary column after removal of the top layer $$l$$ (i.e. the decompacted thickness). The thickness of a sediment pile with $$l$$ layers is then:

The density of the sedimentary column underneath layer $$l$$ is given by the mean density of all the remaining layers. This is the sum of all the densities of the remaining layers multiplied by the respective thickness and divided by $$L^*$$:

Effectively you iteratively apply ($$) and ($$) using $$L^*$$ and $$\rho_{L^*}$$ instead of $$L$$ and $$\rho_L$$.

title: Back-stripping


text:
Category:Television stations in Canada

This category lists television stations in Canada. Stations should be subcategorized by television network and region whenever possible.

es:Categoría:Cadenas de televisión de Canadá fr:Catégorie:Chaîne de télévision canadienne

title: Category:Television stations in Canada


text: User talk:64.166.87.52

title: User talk:64.166.87.52


text:
Studebaker Canada

Studebaker of Canada Ltd. was the name given to Studebaker Corporation's Canadian manufacturing arm.

History
While Studebaker produced cars in Canada prior to the Second World War, Studebaker's first modern automobile factory was established at Hamilton, Ontario in 1947, in an anti-aircraft gun plant purchased from the Canadian government. From its opening until December 1963, the Hamilton plant manufactured automobiles as a satellite facility using engines produced in the United States. Studebaker half-ton pickup trucks were assembled at Hamilton, Ontario, from 1950 through 1955.

Studebaker of Canada and Packard Motor Company of Canada merged in 1954. Packard had ceased Canadian assembly operations in 1939, and the Canadian affiliate was a distribution and administrative organization. Although the 1957 and 1958 Packards were based on Studebaker models, none were assembled in Canada.

On October 28, 1962, Studebaker of Canada acquired the rights to import and market Mercedes-Benz and DKW automobiles in Canada. As in the United States, the Mercedes-Benz line was not sold by all Studebaker dealers as each dealer had to prove they had the resources to market a car in that price class. Studebaker of Canada ended its connection with Mercedes-Benz in 1965.

During the 1963 model year, Studebaker of Canada made some changes to its product mix. In mid-year the Canadian plant began assembly of the Daytona convertible and the Cruiser sedan, both imported to that point. The Studebaker Avanti was never built in Canada and the Canadian firm never offered the mid-1963 Standard series to Canadians. When the 1963 model year came to an end, the Studebaker Gran Turismo Hawk became an imported vehicle.

Following the closure of the South Bend, Indiana factory in late December 1963, Studebaker shifted all of its production to Hamilton, where it was felt the company could be profitable on production of around 20,000 units a year. Because of limited plant capacity, the decision was made to focus on the Daytona, Cruiser, Commander and Wagonaire, which were all Lark-type platform variants. Studebaker would not shift production of the Hawk, Avanti and truck series to Canada.

For the remainder of the 1964 model year, engines continued to be built in South Bend (until the expiration of union contracts at year end), but without casting capabilities in Hamilton, the company shifted to small block Chevrolet V8 and I6 engines for the 1965 model year. The engines were produced by McKinnon Industries, a GM subsidiary located in nearby St. Catharines.

Importer status
During this period, Studebaker of Canada also imported cars for Volkswagen of Canada, using its status as a Canadian manufacturer to take advantage of lower import duties than a Canadian importer. Studebaker was able to import Volkswagens from Germany and sell them to Volkswagen of Canada at a lower cost to Volkswagen and Studebaker was still able to make $150 on each car imported.

Studebaker of Canada also attempted to import Datsun cars to North America. It was felt a second vehicle for Studebaker dealers would help increase showroom traffic and sales, and that one of Datsun's larger models could serve as a Studebaker-badged replacement for its own aging design. Studebaker of Canada president, Gordon Grundy, flew to Japan to meet with the heads of Nissan, makers of the Datsun. All was going well when management in South Bend ordered Grundy to break off talks with Nissan and approach Toyota instead. Toyota refused to speak with Grundy as he had not approached them first, and Nissan would not reopen discussions. The decision to change talks in mid-stream was the result of a suggestion from a member of the head office's legal firm (reputedly Richard Nixon), who felt Toyota would be a better choice. In the end, Studebaker had no imported car for its dealers from either manufacturer.

Marketing and the end of production
Studebaker cars built in Canada were openly marketed there as Studebaker: Canada's Own Car!. In other markets, notably the United States, Studebaker promoted the Common Sense Car. Production of Studebaker cars in Canada increased in 1964 due to the American plant closure, but American sales collapsed. During 1965, even Canadian sales began to decline, both a sign the future was not rosy. Although the 1965 production of 19,435 cars met the announced goal, the reality was that the move to Canada was more a method of gradually phasing out production, rather than a real effort to remain in the auto business.

Grundy approached management in early 1966 seeking funds for a minor 1967 restyle and the associated tooling, but was advised that there would be no 1967 models. The last of the 8,947 1966 models built, and the final Studebaker car, a V8-powered Cruiser four-door sedan, rolled off the Hamilton assembly line on March 16, 1966. Now fully restored, it is on display at the Studebaker National Museum in South Bend, Indiana.

End of the line
On August 18, 1948, surrounded by more than 400 employees and a battery of reporters, the first vehicle, a blue Champion four-door sedan, rolled off the Studebaker assembly line. The company was located in the former Otis-Fenson military weapons factory off Burlington Street East, which was built in 1941. The Indiana-based Studebaker was looking for a Canadian site and settled on Hamilton because of its steel industry. The company was known for making automotive innovations and building solid distinctive cars. 1950 was its best year but the descent was quick. By 1954, Studebaker was in the red and merging with Packard, another falling car manufacturer. In 1963, the company moved its entire car operations to Hamilton. The Canadian car side had always been a money-maker and Studebaker was looking to curtail disastrous losses. That took the plant from a single to double shift - 48 to 96 cars daily. The last car to roll off the line was a turquoise Lark Cruiser on March 17, 1966. Studebaker officially shut down the next day. It was terrible news for the 700 workers who had formed a true family at the company, known for its employee parties and day trips. It was a huge blow to the city, too. Studebaker was Hamilton's 10th largest employer at the time.

The old Studebaker plant was later re-acquired by Otis Elevators, which used the building until 1987. It was scheduled for demolition in 2012 to make way for a new industrial estate.

title: Studebaker Canada


text:
Pinnes (Ardiaean)

Pinnes (Πίννης; also Pinnius; c. 230 – 217 BC) was the son of Agron, king of the Ardiaei in Illyria, and Agron's first wife Triteuta. He officially succeeded his father as king in 230 BC, but the Ardiaean kingdom was ruled by Agron's second wife, Queen Teuta.

Biography
Pinnes was only a young boy when his father died in 230 BC, and his stepmother Teuta assumed de facto control. Local chiefs demanded greater power and autonomy for their regions and Teuta, who feared losing her status, appeased the aggressors. This act was seen as a sign of weakness and no ship in the Adriatic and Ionian sea was safe from Illyrian pirates who raided regardless of a ship's country or the damage it would do to Illyria's foreign relations.

Greece was the most affected by this new danger as their economy depended on the seas. Rome, wanting to protect trade routes between Magna Graecia and Greece, sent delegates to mediate the situation, but war broke out due to a disagreement between Teuta and Rome's ambassadors. She ordered the assassinations of the delegates and sparked the First Illyrian War in 229 BC. Teuta surrendered and accepted Rome's peace terms which included her abdication and the reinstatement of Pinnes.

Pinnes once again lost his throne when Demetrius of Pharos (Pharos is today the island of Hvar) married Triteuta and declared himself king. Demetrius ignored the treaty with Rome and allied Illyria with Rome's long term enemy Macedon. The Second Roman-Illyrian War began in 219 BC when a Roman army was sent to Illyria. Demetrius fled to Macedon and Pinnes finally became king, though his sudden death in 217 BC at the age of 15 meant that he never actually ruled.

Pinnes is not even mentioned by Polybius, though Appian and Cassius Dio refer to him as the legitimate heir. Appian writes that Pinnes asked for the aid of the Romans but nothing seems to have come of it.

title: Pinnes (Ardiaean)


text:
Cotton Incorporated

Cotton Incorporated is a not-for-profit organization funded by cotton growers in the United States through per-bale assessments on producers and importers levied by the Cotton Board, which reports to the United States Department of Agriculture.

The Cotton Research and Promotion Act of 1966 enabled the establishment of Cotton Incorporated in 1970. The organization conducts research and promotes the use of cotton, including initial processing, recycling, and marketing. The company has helped cotton increase market share in fabrics since it was enacted, both through the branding of cotton with the "Seal of Cotton" and improved technology. The successful campaign was the first commodity brand.

Cotton Incorporated's world headquarters are located in Cary, North Carolina, and offices are located in New York, Mexico City, Hong Kong, Shanghai, and Osaka. Cotton Incorporated works with the Cotton Council International.

On Thanksgiving Day, 1989, Cotton Incorporated launched its long-running "Fabric of Our Lives" advertising campaign.

title: Cotton Incorporated


text:
Bachelor pad

A bachelor pad is a home (pad) in which a bachelor or bachelors (single men) live. The exact standards on what constitutes a bachelor pad are often ambiguous and debated but one definition describes it as: A "bachelor pad" is a slang term for a living space owned by a bachelor (single man) that is designed as a collective space (as opposed to individual items) with the purpose of facilitating a bachelor in his daily activities to include but not limited to daily functionality, use of free time, hobbies and interests, entertaining friends, and seducing women. A bachelor pad can be done on a very limited budget as is the case with many young adults and college students, or to an extravagant level as seen amongst some celebrities. It should not be confused as such with "bachelor apartment", a real estate term which refers an apartment with no bedroom –the main room serves as a bedroom, living room, and dining room (and sometimes kitchen as well).

History
In the United Kingdom the term "bachelor pad" usually refers to a flat where a single young man lives alone. Most students in the UK, who are unable to afford this luxury, perforce live with other students, hence the heightened social status attributed to this particular sense of the phrase.

In the United States it generally refers to small houses or apartments where unmarried men, often college/university students, live until they obtain larger or more luxurious houses or apartments, are married, or generally "move up" in standards of living and taste. It also became a symbol of independence and freedom for young people when leaving their parents' house for the first time.

For much of the early 20th century housekeeping was the female ideal whilst it was a man's responsibility to be the breadwinner outside of the home. By the late 1950s into the 1960s, however, the bachelor pad was considered one of the prime possessions for a young career-minded man with the disposable income (its first mention in print was 7 June 1959, in the Chicago Tribune). In this private space of his own he was able to decorate his apartment to both suit his tastes and reflect his status (oft according to the epicurian diktats or hedonistic ethos of Playboy magazine). In the 1950s, men's attitudes about marriage changed with openness of sexuality featured on-screen. At this cultural tipping point the thought of being single was welcomed as permitting freedom of action, and many men felt comfortable to court a number of women freely without matrimony in mind. Hence the bachelor pad then became a symbol, and eventually a cliché, of the Swinging '60s cosmopolitan male.

The typical accoutrements of a "pad" featured a bar, a artwork, bespoke furniture (usually designed by a well-known architect), minimalistic décor, and a hi-fi stereo system (for jazz and lounge music). All of which supposedly showcased the bachelor's appreciation of culture and the arts, which in turn attracted potential female visitors themselves seeking high-status mates — which meant they were usually kept clean. Fictional examples can be seen in films such as Rock Hudson's pad in Pillow Talk (1959), Oceans 11 (1960), Boeing Boeing (1965), James Bond's residence in any of the early Bond films, The Ipcress File (1965), (a low-key example vis-à-vis Alfie (1966)), Brian Bedfords' in The Pad (and How to Use It) (1966),  and, decades later, the Mollywood Malayalam-language remake Boeing Boeing (1985), Tony Stark's Malibu Mansion in the MCU franchise, Love Stinks (1999), Down With Love (2003), and the entirety of the Austin Powers franchise. While in some of these the bachelor pad serves mere to denote a character's bon vivant personality, most of them are bedroom farces and romantic comedies.

After their heyday bachelor pads were more bohemian than parvenu bourgeoise, with old food and dirty dishes and clothing being strewn about the floor, sinks, and other areas in proximity to places where they are useful (examples being dirty clothes piled up near a washer and/or dryer, dirty dishes in a sink, or moldy food in a refrigerator) — often to the disgust of women related to or involved with the men living in "pads". Several men may share a pad and its expenses for financial reasons or friendship, which stereotypically worsens living conditions compared to the one person case, as depicted in The Odd Couple and its derivatives. Pads may also be the sites of wild parties.

In the late 1990s, bachelor pads became unique spaces and habitat of many free-spirited youngsters as documented by photographer Michael Rababy.

Unmarried men's living accommodations are often detailed in fiction in a way in which women's flats are not. Examples from the range of fiction include: the home of Withnail and his flatmate in the film Withnail and I. A less desirable pad was depicted in the 1966 film The Pad and How to Use It. Finally, the famous shared rooms of Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson were a combination dining room, interview room, laboratory and library.

title: Bachelor pad


text: User talk:80.168.225.145

title: User talk:80.168.225.145


text:
Talk:Ethical challenges to autism treatment

Neutrality of "Historic prognosis for permanently institutionalized autistic children"
I created the "Ethical challenges to autism treatment" article because the autism rights movement article was getting too big. The section on "Historic prognosis ..." I did not write but I do have some concerns about neutrality of that section. I was able to prefix some opinions in that section with things like "it is the opinion of autism rights activists ..." but I don't know enough about the topic to edit it more than that. I'd like for someone else who knows more about that topic to check that section and make sure it is neutral. Q0 03:28, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Weasel terms
The section historic prognosis for permanently institutionalized autistic children was flagged as having weasel terms. Please try to improve as necessary. -Frazzydee|✍ 04:14, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Neuroleptics
Medical professionals I have talked to, as well as an instruction for Swedish healthcare personell which I don't have anymore, stated that neuroleptics should never be administered to people with pervasive developmental disorders (I believe it mentioned ADHD and Asperger explicitly, though I assume the same goes for autism), unless it is the only way to prevent immediate risk of significant harm to the patient or others. The reason for this was, as I recall, that these people are more sensitive to long-term effects than neurotypicals. Anecdotally, I have PDD/NOS with features of ADD and Asperger, and got severe long-term effects from a single 5mg dose of Nozinan, including but not limited to severe cognitive, personality, motor and hormonal changes. Some of these have slowly started to reverse after 3 years, starting after a prolonged course of treatment with dopaminergic drugs. Of course, that can't be in the article, but it bears searching for further information about the topic. Zuiram 06:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Original research
The following section, without an outside citation, is original research and really shouldn't be in here. Furthermore, it doesn't actually say anything about autism aside from OIL being one of the pioneers of autism treatment. Wikipedia can't make arguments, it can only report pre-existing arguments from reliable sources. WLU 14:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the DSM until it was removed in 1973 mostly due to political activism and controversy. Some ABA critics have noted there are still efforts to "cure" homosexuality through "reparative therapy", although the scientific consensus is that sexual orientation is unchangeable. Ivar Lovaas, generally considered to be the father of behavioral interventions for autism, is one of the authors of a 1974 article titled Behavioral treatment of deviant sex role behaviors in a male child published in the Journal of Applied Behavioral Analysis.
 * Arguments from precedent

Double Blind for ABA
How can you possibly do a double blind study of a behavior modification technique? I think it would always be pretty obvious to the subject whether they were receiving behavior modification or not. That's like saying there are no double-blind studies proving that incisions in the skin cause bleeding. 71.63.105.172 16:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I had the same reaction as the previous poster. Ive hear criticism like this from a speech therapist, and I thought "gee, don't you have the same problem?". How would any therapist not know what treatment they are giving to a patient if it involves knowing information about the patient. Hornung9 02:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hence the need to use single-subject designs (either reversal or multiple baseline) -- glad to see that people are seeing through some of the straw-men being put up!Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 04:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Or Alternating Treatment Design... yay single case design! I am highly supportive of your work Josh. - Hornung9 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hornung9 (talk • contribs) 02:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Alternative autism treatment
Modern medicine sees all mental illness including austism, deriving only from the brain - primarily from neurotransmitter imbalance and nothing else - the truth is that in many cases there is often an underlining physical cause (eg: infection, celiac disease, etc) and this is often never investigated, and so its no wonder today we are faced with the current tragedy that the Mentally ill die 25 years earlier, on average!. We have found many interesting medical studies such as: 'Enterocolitis in children with Autism' 'an autopsy of 82 patients who had been diagnosed with schizophrenia. Gastritis was found in 50%, enteritis in 85% and colitis in 92%.' read more... '99% certain of a genetic association between schizophrenia and coeliac disease' Gut and mental illness

Neutrality Challenged...
I 'nominated' -- not sure if I just added a template, or if a bot will bring this to someone who'll render judgement...but anyway, I'm looking at the article and finding no sources that back up any of this being 'an ethical challenge' -- we have a website for DAN and under the ABA heading -- you have the 'ABA Controversy' Ethical_challenges_to_autism_treatment. The first 7 sources are in support of ABA as an ethical treatment -- so it seems that the 'sourced info' contraindicates ABA being in this page...Drug Therapy's 'ethical challenge' also not a challenge to ethics -- just a bit of unsourced information about drug treatment...again, I think this page should be removed as it is not about ethical challenges that are sourced at all.Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 20:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Neutrality is established on talk pages through discussions, by editors, not bots. No bot could determine if something is neutral or not :)  You could try to track down some of the dedicated contributors for their comment.  WLU (talk) 22:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry -- I wasn't clear, I wasn't sure if the tag would alert a bot that would then insert this page on some sort of review page -- and then editors would come and comment, or whether I should be contacting folks myself -- it seems that you're indicating the latter -- I'll begin that, thanks!Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 22:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe if you add the tag, it may add it to Category:NPOV disputes, but I don't think that guarantees any sort of oversight or someone looking into it. If you want to attract attention, try a WP:RFC - basically you'll get experienced editors looking into the page to identify problems.  I'd try to get it up to snuff as best you can beforehand, just as a courtesy.  But it's not really necessary, they'll probably generate a list of stuff for you to work on.  I'm not really sure, the only RFC I've ever participated on that wasn't a content dispute didn't turn out so good...  WLU (talk) 22:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that this article is a complete and utter mess of vagueness, but I believe it can be saved. I'm digging for proper references for the autistic rights side of things.  There's currently a severe lack of such in this entire set of articles. --elmindreda (talk) 06:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I should also add that in my opinion, parts of this article doesn't even accurately reflect the position of those making the ethical challenges (and leaves out key points), which does nothing to alleviate confusion and POV. --elmindreda (talk) 06:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This article lacks citations to show that it is unbiased. I have heard of no claims of ABA causing PTSDT and no documented cases exist to my knowledge. This seems to be on the verge of legal lible. J.C. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.212.130 (talk) 19:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * In no way would citations - or references - automatically result in an unbiased article, nor does a shortage of citations automatically make an article biased.
 * I don't think you can defame (slander, libel) an idea or method, only people, organizations and products. It's PTSD, not PTSDT, and the article links it with the use of aversives. Fenke (talk) 01:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC) (Edit: corrected spelling Fenke (talk) 15:22, 1 January 2008 (UTC))
 * I agree that lack of citations don't automatically result in an unbiased article...but this article is contending that there are ethical challenges to treatment...thus, without sources, I'd say that it is contentious, and if it isn't/can't be sourced it should be removed. Like I said earlier, I'm not even sure that this is worthy of its own article -- why isn't it under the same named subheading on the autistic rights movement? Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 02:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree that there would not be any ethical challenges to treatment, but we should indeed find some sources. Let's keep the article for a while, although it's related to the autism rights movement, it's also a separate issue. --Fenke (talk) 12:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any sources that are not autism rights related that discuss ethics of ABA? I haven't heard of one...so I don't agree with your statement 'its a separate issue' Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 18:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ehm, do you have any sources that show that all ethical issues regarding autism treatment are autism rights related. You can disagree, but if you want a merge, you need to show why.
 * The issue of ethics is a bit wider then ABA and the Autism rights movement, consider for instance facilitated communication. Fenke (talk) 19:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Proof of the exception, rather than inclusion is required...thus, I don't say, well, you say that birds have wings...and you must prove to me that ALL birds have wings...rather, we look for exceptions as disproof(a bird without wings). At this point, all I've seen is autism rights making 'ethical' challenges -- not only to ABA but meds, etc...you bring up FC...but it isn't on the page.  I don't see how this article is either notable as its own, as it seems to have little to no content and is unsourced -- which means it should not be included.  Again -- if you say it is not autism rights movement(ARM)...source something that is an ethical challenge to autism treatment that is not from ARM and I'll reconsider my stance.  Until then -- I firmly stand by my position that it should be merged back into its 'parent' article. Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 20:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Facilitated Communication
Fenke, FC is not only used w/autism, but also DD, CP, and brain injuries...and it has been debunked not as a treatment for autism, but treatment for anything -- I view this differently than the medications for autism -- they're only ethically indicated for treatment of autism -- the argument isn't that antidepressants aren't good for treatment; it is that they aren't good for the treatment of autism. Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 23:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter if it's 'debunked' or not, ethical issues concerning it and other treatments can still be raised and even if such treatments never see application again, the issues could be mentioned for historical reasons. Fenke (talk) 12:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

No citations
There have been no efforts to cite much of this -- I'll begin to remove non-related copy as well as non-cited copy until we have a well-cited article. Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 02:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge Proposal
I've proposed a merge back into the Autism Rights Movement - there is some discussion above why this may be a good or bad idea. All points should have some sort of source, rather than your OR. I will being, I see no verifiable information in this article that would not fit under the same heading under the Autism_rights_movement. In fact, the majority of verifiable information on this page is opposing the inclusion of those topics as ethical challenges. Please discuss. Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 03:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I still don't see any reliable sources that say that the articles should be merged, do you? But there never could be, the discussion about merging is about the wikipedia structure, for which there are no reliable external sources. Any discussion or decision regarding wikipedia article structure will always be OR. Fenke (talk) 08:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Right now the page is virtually unsourced - there's some articles for ABA being verified, but nothing for any of the counter-claims. There's two articles for higher rates of seizures in people with autism, and a strange sentence following the citations that's about treatment, not about ethics at all.  There's a reference to APANA, apparently just to prove it exists, then a citation that neuroleptics appear to be worse for people with autism than non-autistics.  Aside from these points, nothing is cited, and can therefore be removed.  Any remaining information could either be moved to the ABA page (and it's already there), either autism treatments page or seizures page for the seizure and drug info, the ARM page for APANA.  The rest is unsourced, packed with weasel words, OR, repeatedly unproven assertions of vaccine and heavy metal causes of autism, and ultimately very, very little about the ethics of treatment.  The drug therapy section is more about the efficacy of treatment than the ethics of it.  The page is almost three years old, but there appears to be very little justifying keeping the page.  Fenke, if you wanted to paste the text to a sub page and work on a sourced draft, that would allow you to keep the info while looking for citations, but right now I don't see a reason to not merge the page.  It's the lack of reliable sources that makes the page gutable and mergable.  From WP:PROVEIT, the burden is on the editor who adds or replaces material to provide citations, not on the editor who removes it.  There is so little material on the page that is justified by sources, it's essentially empty.  I acknowledge that the treatment of autism is a controversial subject among the ARM and the neurodiverse, but this page isn't doing the controversy justice.  I think there is some merit in relaxing the requirements for reliable sourcing somewhat to allow statements from lobby groups, mostly because I think that's the only place you'll get any info from, barring newspapers and counter-points in academic journals.  Michelle Dawson and Temple Grandin's blogs or personal publications might also work, but would have to be used very carefully.  WLU (talk) 17:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I really think there should be an article on this topic, but this mess isn't it. Agreed on WLU's statements and tentative yes to merging. --elmindreda (talk) 22:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you think there should be an article on this...is there an article on any other 'ethical challenge' to treatment?...we should see some ethical challenges to treatment of cancer, of treatment to cerebral palsy, of mental retardation, etc. etc...however, we don't see that - those types of things are generally in the body of the article for that disability. I think the only difference between autism and these other disabilities is that the Autism Rights Movement has made such a big deal about it -- which leads me to my push for a merge BACK into the correct article.  To Fenke, you keep using statements that are either circular or illogical...of course there isn't a source as to why a merge should occur -- just like there isn't a source stating that Mars should not have a sub-article called 'Why Mars is red'...the burden is in the other direction.  I was also talking not about sourcing why the article should be merged or not, but sourcing content in the article.  I've not removed all unsourced content, but when I do, there will be only 159 words left...and that's leaving most of the lead (even though it is unsourced).  It seems like consent is that the article should be merged.  Fenke and elmindreda, do you want to place the text into a subpage somewhere so you can work on it to get it notable and sourced? Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 00:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not a question of merging it back into the article on the autism rights movement, as it was never split off from it.
 * You apply for a merge so you need to show a merge is appropriate and how and why this article should be a section in the Autism Rights Movement. You attempt to do so by determining the terms by which this discussion is to be held and the sources that can be used. --Fenke (talk) 02:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't really see it that way - as soon as anyone removes the unsourced info from the page, there's nothing left. And as is, there's not much 'ethical' on the page now anyway.  That's how I see it. You could ask at WP:RFC or some admins or something, but I'm pretty sure you'll get the same response.  The other option is to add sources to the page - it can be done, if they can be found, but it's not our area of expertise.  In addition, it's already a section in the autism rights movement.  And there are no real sources, it's a mess of speculation, weasel words and opinions.  But again, if you can provide the sources the page needs to make it into a page worth keeping, then by all means it should be kept!  But as is, it really isn't a matter of being worth keeping, it's a matter of there being nothing here that's not already covered elsewhere, or totally irrelevant.  That's how I see it.  WLU (talk) 03:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see why anyone would want to challenge treatments of cancer on the basis being discussed here. Cancer is a group of diseases, some of them deadly, while autism is a difference of neurology underlying personality and ultimately sense of self and does not shorten one's lifespan.  I'm also not aware that either cerebral palsy or mental retardation are considered treatable.  The reason for making "such a big deal about it" is precisely because of this push towards the medicalised view of autism.  The basis for challenging the ethics of certain treatments (and in all honesty the term itself) is well explained by concepts like neurodiversity and the social model of disability, i.e. the right to be accepted and accomodated as one is.  I'm digging for sources anyway and I'll gladly help out whether it becomes a subpage or a subsection.  It seems that choice is up to Fenke at this point. --elmindreda (talk) 17:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Oh, and to answer your initial inquiry, I think the issues are in fact sufficiently numerous and complex to warrant their own article, but as far as I can tell, they at present are not sufficiently documented by reliable sources to support such an article. For that reason I support this merge, and my hopes are for the future. --elmindreda (talk) 18:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with WLU -- Fenke, here's how I show the merge is appropriate: Furthermore, I'm simply saying, either source the material, or I'm deleting it; if it is not sourced quickly, there'll be no material left -- and instead of a merge, we'll have an empty page that will be marked for speedy deletion for lack of content. I'm trying to facilitate you(or whomever else thinks this info is important) keeping whatever you can salvage from this mess of an article and merge it into the ARM article. I continue to stand by my statement that it is not notable on its own -- you have yet to refute any of the statements I have made indicating why it should be merged. Therefore -- do you have a reason to oppose the merge, or shall we begin the merging? Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 03:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * there is already a section under the ARM page with the exact same title
 * this page will be reduced to less than 200 words -- most of the remaining words are either in support of the treatments which are being proposed as ethical challenges (thus supporting that the page is mis-titled, or not useful).
 * The sources that I'm 'determining' have happily been deterimned before me: Sources.
 * I did look at the history, and there was Ethical Challenges to ABA in the ARM article LONG before the beginning of this article...and surprisingly, 4 minutes after the creation of this article, the ARM article changed its name to the same title -- it appears to me that this article was then an extension of the ARM article -- supporting my statement that it needs to go BACK to the ARM article. Josh.Pritchard.DBA (talk) 04:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks for the history digging. Do you still have those history URLs about? --elmindreda (talk) 18:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This edit. Fenke (talk) 19:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Many articles have sections that summarize another existing article. Obviously that in itself does not provide a reason to merge. Merging an article into another makes linking to it (as a "See also" or "Main article") from articles harder and the article less readable.
 * The article, it's content, needs work, rewriting and sourcing - that much is clear. It will still need that when it's merged into another article.
 * It's good to read that you'll follow regular rules and guidelines about sources.
 * Merging doesn't help to improve the article, it will only destroy the history and any sources that might be in it. Fenke (talk) 19:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * A move might erase the history of the page, but a merge certainly won't - it just takes a bit of fancy clicking to get to the old history. I can show you how to recover the old versions if you'd like.  I just redirected; after removing all the unsourced information, and information that wasn't about ethics, this was all that was left - a lead, some see alsos and a navbox.  Now it redirects to the autism rights movement.  Of the sections I removed, this section was about ABA not being effective.  No mention of efficacy.  This section was about people with autism suffering from extra side effects.  Again, not ethics.  If there are ethical issues here, they are not demonstrated in the article.  The ABA section didn't discuss how ABA can be used to reduce stimming and force imitation of neurotypical behavior (possibly an ethical issue as I've seen it argued that this destroys the 'self' of some autistic individuals).  The drugs section didn't discuss how autistic individuals don't have the ability to refuse medication or object to the severity of side effects - also a possibly ethical issue.  Both sections were about if the treatment's worked or not.  That's efficacy, not ethics.  And the section in the ARM article still doesn't discuss how ABA and other treatments harms autistic individuals.  Plus, it is only two sentences, with no citations at all.  The Opposition to eliminating autism section on that page touches on this, but it's unclear that it's an ethical issue.  I believe there is an issue here, but it's just not visible on the page.  Try re-drafting it on a sub-page to emphasize ethics rather than efficacy, I've no opposition to a proper, referenced page replacing the redirect, I am opposed to the unclear version that existed before.  WLU (talk) 19:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There's now a section on the ARM talk page discussing this. WLU (talk) 19:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)