text:
Talk:Tuskegee Airmen

Culture chart
Although I have not checked the references, the chart on culture looked impressive. Perhaps, it should be returned to this page or placed on a new page about this culture. Snowman (talk) 19:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the chart looked impressive, but my concern was in its use for popular cultural references which is, at best, an aside to the main focus of the article. There were a few errors also in the chart that first piqued my interest, and on reflection, I thought the chart was useful but excessive in its application to a minor section of the article. I can be persuaded, however, and my words are not actually carved in stone... FWIW Bzuk (talk) 19:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC).
 * I see that you have done some tidy-up work and the list of culture looks good too. On reflection I think that you are correct; nevertheless, I appreciate the hard work that went into making the table.  I am sure that tables are needed on some other pages. Snowman (talk) 20:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree that the amount of work in formatting a very presentable and useful table should not be overlooked and I will contact the author to ask him to consider using the same format in other areas. I certainly didn't want to play the ogre after so much creativity and effort was expended as the table was very impressive. FWIW Bzuk (talk) 20:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC).
 * I guess I'm not clear on why the chart was removed. I understand your point about popular culture references being less important, but that is the reason I moved the information from the main portions of the article and the trivia section and consolidated them at the end of the article in chart. Most of the items within the chart had Wikipedia articles or were already a part of the article, so I saw it as adding to the knowledge base for someone interesed in the Tuskegee Airmen. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 21:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a minor point: the first column did not sort correctly as it contained both alphabetical and numerical items, but I guess that different date formatting would fix this. Snowman (talk) 21:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like the sort function works on the letters. We could probably use only the year in future sortable tables since the actually release day is of less importance. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 22:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have not tried it but it might work with year-month-day, in that order, when days and months are expressed as numbers, for example YYYY-MM-DD, 2008-01-14. Snowman (talk) 22:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Removal of photographs
Why? Bzuk (talk) 00:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC).
 * I'm also not sure the series box belongs at the top of the article. I think it was better located in the see also section. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 10:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Strange inconsistency
The article makes the weird claim that the Luftwaffe knew that the pilots of the 99th were black ,and thus gave them the nickname "schwarze Vogelmenschen", but that bomber crews in the USAAF asking for "red-tail escorts" did not know the same fact. This is hard to believe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.78.64.180 (talk) 16:17, February 20, 2008 (UTC)

Soldierofchicago (talk)soldierofchicago- Please read about the Tuskegee airman who was shot down the fall of 1944 in Nazi held territory. Before being sent to the Luft-Stalag the Germans drove him to a huge mansion situated in the German countryside where a Luftwaffe major, probably intelligent chewed the fat with him. This major showed the pilot a picture of himself graduating from flight school. The German officer also told him that he'd spent time in Detroit as the pilot was also from Detroit. Don't take lightly the thoroughness of German intelligence. They knew who the Black pilots, soldiers and sailors by unit designation. —Preceding comment was added at 19:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It's apparently an American tradition to make up names "the Germans" supposedly gave American units, see "Devil Dogs". There is no source for the claim, "Vogelmenschen" is not and has never been German slang for fighter pilots, there are no hits whatsoever in German for this claim and it sounds like a Native American mythological figure, not something a German soldier would've come up with in the mid 1940s. Actual Wehrmacht slang was much more direct and cynical, see here: http://www.dererstezug.com/LandserLingo.htm

On the upside, unlike the hilarious "Teufelshunden", "schwarze Vogelmenschen" is at least grammatically correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.19.243.235 (talk) 15:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Claims, particularly on 24 March 1945
In general most American fighter and bomber units were guilty of massive over-claiming. I have added "claim" to most of the text that implies the German losses were exact, meaning for example, that it implies that 13 were claimed therefore suggesting that was the exact number shot down.

On 24 March 1945 the text read that the group were credited with three Me 262s to the 322nd. According to German records, JG 7 actually lost four. But what the article does not say is that 11 were claimed by the American unit, ontop of yet more claims made by the US bombers. This makes it impossible to tell what fighter or bomber units were responsible for those kills. Sources and citations added. Dapi89 (talk) 15:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

A recent documentary on the History Channel cited 3 confirmed kills, 3 probable and 2 damaged. An amazing display of flying against a technologically superior opponent. The history channel also stated that they drew first blood of any units to face the 262 in combat. Tom 06/14/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.222.125.65 (talk) 19:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The History Channel program cited was incorrect regarding the first claims against German jets. Fighters of the 15th Air Force were credited with downing 12 German jets from December 1944 to April 1945. The first three Me 262 kills in the 15th were scored by the 31st Fighter Group prior to the 332nd's engagement on March 24 '45. At the end of the war the 31st had downed seven jets followed by the the 332nd with three plus the 52nd and 325th with one each. The overall US record was 17 jets by the 357th Group of the 8th Air Force. See Dr. Frank Olynyk, "USAAF (Mediterranean Theater) Credits for Destruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air to Air Combat, World War 2." Privately printed, 1987. Also William N. Hess, "German Jets vs the U.S. Army Air Force." Specialty Press, 1996.

Btillman (talk) 21:43, 11 August 2011 (UTC)B Tillman Aug 11, 2011

A more complete listing of info on above two sources:

Title: USAAF (European Theater) credits for the destruction of enemy aircraft in air-to-air combat, World War 2 Issue 5 of Victory list Author:	Frank J. Olynyk Publisher:	F.J. Olynyk, 1987 Length:	829 pages ASIN:       B00071PY62

Title: 	German Jets Versus the U.S. Army Air Force: Battle for the Skies Over Europe Author:	William N. Hess Edition:	illustrated Publisher:	Specialty Press, 1996 ISBN: 	0933424639, 9780933424630

Georgejdorner (talk) 17:20, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

George Lucas Movie
Possible.  miranda   22:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

destroyer sunk: TA-23?
In the article we read: but in www.german-navy.de they wrote:

and in [http://books.google.pl/books?id=FSsT66ZH7yQC&pg=RA1-PA316&lpg=RA1-PA316&dq=%22TA-23%22+OR+TA23+destroyer&source=bl&ots=PzycoXTGhJ&sig=XYILX13t_gnYBA3P--xJHnbUM3c&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result Iron Men, Wooden Boats. the Epic Story of American PT Boats in World War II] by Howard F. West:

In the Wikipedia article - Ciclone class torpedo boat:

In Museum of Black WW II History they do not mention name of destroyer but the date of battle:

but no one Ciclone class torpedo boat was sunk on that day.

The name and type of destroyer sunk by Redtails (and date of this operation) has to be verified. Julo (talk) 12:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Flight surgeons?
In my view the African American flight surgeons assigned to the task of training and care of these airmen is a very important part of this history. WWII was an era where tremendous advances in aviation medicine were accomplished and the conditions under which these men lived and worked to support the pilots is nothing short of amazing. Is this article so overloaded with quality information that accomplishments of non-flight personnel just as vital to the team should be overlooked? --Gene Hobbs (talk) 04:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Both white and black flight surgeons made their mark during the war. There were also order-of-magnitude advances in signals; wouldn't it be appropriate to talk about African-American signalmen doing their duty?
 * What I saw in your addition was not an explication of the trials and accomplishments of the black flight surgeons who were involved with the Tuskegee Airmen but an inadequately short tagging-on, an inappropriately brief mention of them alongside ground crew and the presumed pilots who make up an air arm. I saw your addition as a way to get this interesting book into the article, but I didn't think it was done in a manner that served the reader more than it served the book. If flight surgeons are discussed here, I think a fuller description of their experience would be far better than a "me, too" teaser. Binksternet (talk) 04:47, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Ah, OK, thanks for the reply. I was in the midst to expanding on their medical coverage elsewhere in the article using the named reference I had added. When I saw that the reference only lasted 4 minutes I figured I better get clarification here before I wasted more time. I'll try to get back to this later tonight and add all the text at once for you to edit. Thanks again! --Gene Hobbs (talk) 13:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

 * wouldn't this information be better suited in an article devoted to aviation medicine? Just askin'... FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:47, 3 March 2009 (UTC).

 * I have none of the books listed in the bibliography but I do have this article that is a great review of the history. My initial intent was to expand the idea that "Until the formation of the Tuskegee flying units, all U.S. Army flight surgeons were white" -p23 and discuss their duties as related to these men. This also shows the importance of these men in broadening boundaries outside of just military aviation. After that I wanted expand some of the background behind the political pressure and events leading to the creation of the unit. "Responding to Hastie’s urgings as well as other pressures, President Roosevelt issued Executive Order 8802, enacted into law in May 1941. Gen. Yount’s 1938 suggestion – to train an all-African American flying unit by establishing a Training Center for this purpose and by providing a similar operational unit for its graduates – was resurrected and approved in December 1940." -p6. It is also interesting to me that Mrs. Roosevelt requested a photo of herself in the "plane and sitting in the cockpit behind Chief Anderson" which "brought Tuskegee aviation to national attention" (would be cool if we could find this photo). This event lead to increases in recruitment. "Cadet selection, classification and initial training" -p30 also has some interesting history. So my intent was not to spend all my time on the flight surgeons in as much as placing the named reference in that location would allow for me to get started. But to be honest, your comment makes me think maybe I should just leave it alone for now and see how it progresses.

 * A better publication on general history of aviation medicine can be found here if you need it. --Gene Hobbs (talk) 16:43, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

 * No, no, don't back down. Take at least the first step and write about how flight surgeons were all white until Tuskegee. Please. Binksternet (talk) 16:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

 * I'll try it after work, please check back to edit (my writing sucks so it is usually brief). The photo with Eleanor Roosevelt is already in wikipedia (here). --Gene Hobbs (talk) 17:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Not Giving The African American Fighting Men Their Due!!
We must be exceedingly careful not to promote skepticism under the guise of truth. If bombardier squadrons kept requesting the escort of 332nd then that is a testimony to their prowess in the air and to their commander, Colonel Benjamin O Davis Jr who by the way was a stickler for military discipline. The Germans respected the Tuskegee Airmen. One thing about the Germans they've, always respected a formidable opponent on the battlefield. They did'nt underestimate their enemies(for the most part)and tippped their hats off to them!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soldierofchicago (talk • contribs) 23:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

This is an attack on a straw man. This article treats the Tuskegee Airmen with all the respect they're due. Unfortunately, the entire article is disjointed writing. According to the 'Controversy' section toward the end of the article, it was claimed that the Tuskegee Squadron allowed no bomber losses, when in fact bombers were lost. Not to have lost any bombers is improbable. Setting the record straight doesn't diminish the fact that the Tuskegee pilots did quite as well as their white counterparts. Skepticism is almost always healthy. It usually promotes truth. The best reply is verifiable information. Tapered (talk) 05:03, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

To say that the Tuskegee Airmen did quite as well as there white counterparts is an understatement. In the article it states that a historian found evidence of 25 bombers that went down on the Tuskegee Airmen's watch in WWII. The white units were often losing more than that in a single mission. There is just no comparison of statistics when it comes to matching combat accomplishments. They were head and shoulders above their enemy and their American counterparts. You can only draw a parallel between the German pilots and white American pilots. Only 66 Tuskegee Airmen died in combat and only 32 were captured in all of WWII. Tom 08/03/10

Portrait of 332nd pilots from WW2 nominated on wiki commons
I've nominated Toni Frissell's famous portrait of airmen from the 332nd during World War II in Italy as a featured picture on Wiki Commons. Editors can support the nomination by voting. Voting closes in nine days. Thank you. --Goldsztajn (talk) 06:13, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Possible addition to the "Popular Culture" Section
In band camp years ago we learned a piece entitled "The Tuskegee Airmen". Unfortunately, I've misplaced the sheet music, and google has been of no help. Has anyone ever seen/heard of this piece?Pressondude (talk) 00:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I'm not sure if this was a good idea (edit mercilessly, critique mercifully), but I added both a prod deletion and merge tag on Erwin Lawrence, and of course, put a merge tag on this page. Please discuss amongst yourselves. --I dream of horses (talk) 00:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mind. Apparently, it's been done. --I dream of horses (talk) 00:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Another merge idea: Should the 332d Fighter Group article be merged into this? --Zegoma beach (talk) 13:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Popular Culture
I added a reference to Night at the Museum: Battle of the Smithsonian to popular culture references. The movie made me more aware of them than I had been previously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.68.59 (talk) 02:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

15 year old black girl inclusion
Originally for the Cessna 172 wiki, better here. Will shorten and put in Popular Culture, unless better place is noted.

 * July 13, 2009 15 year old Kimberly Anyadik completed a round trip flight in a 172S N6048Z (172S10217) from Tomorrow's Aeronautical Museum in Compton, CA to the east coast and back. She is believed to be the youngest black female to pilot an airplane transcontinentally, with Ronell Norman as safty pilot and Tuskegee Airman Levi Thornhill (after whom the aircraft is named, and why its tail is painted red), stopping at Little Rock’s Central Flying Service, where other members of the Tuskegee Airmen signed her airplane Flightsoffancy (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

 * This is trivia; important for Anyadik but not for this article. Binksternet (talk) 18:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Non-encyclopaedic, plus the reference doesn't support the claim. Reference doesn't say anything about it being completed, just that she's flown from California to Arkansas. In fact it doesn't even say she got to Arkansas, just that she's scheduled to get there. However it is still entirely unencyclopaedic. Canterbury Tail   talk  01:32, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Squadron comanded by whites and Puerto Ricans?
I have requested a citation from a recognized, credible source supporting the claim that the squadron was commanded by whites and Puerto Ricans. I am skeptical of it for several reasons. First of all, while the army did segregate white and black troops, there was no segregation on the basis of Puerto Rican or Hispanic ancestry. In fact, the category of Hispanic didn't even exist back then, and wouldn't even appear on the U.S. census until 1980. Moreover, Hispanic does not denote a specific race; Hispanics can be any race. In the 1940's, a white Puerto Rican (i.e. someone who looked like Ricky Martin) would've been categorized as white, and a black or mulatto Puerto Rican (someone who looked like Roberto Clemente) would've been categorized as black. Since its extremely unlikely a black Puerto Rican would have been appointed to command the Tuskegee Airmen, any Puerto Rican appointed commander would almost certainly have been considered white. Some of the commanders may indeed have been Puerto Rican, but I am skeptical of the suggestion that Puerto Ricans were appointed to command the unit as a matter of official policy. ResuModnar (talk) 02:31, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Murder of Airmen
I'm curious if anyone has ever heard of a case where a Tuskegee Airmen was murdered by the Klan or some other hate group of the time. Also, if at anytime during the War, an American bomber or another fighter flown by a white pilot ever fired on one of the Tuskegee fighters on purpose. -OberRanks (talk) 14:23, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you hear about such cases or you are just curious? - Darwinek (talk) 14:35, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Curious after reading about Lemuel Penn. -OberRanks (talk) 14:45, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Lemuel Penn was quite an isolated event, though medially attractive since it came after the Civil Rights Act. I am sure any hate crime aimed at Tuskegee Airmen would be properly documented and well-known. - Darwinek (talk) 15:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

New source
The Tuskegee Airmen: American Heroes sources is not considered a reliable source, Not only is it a junior age novel but it has been described as virtually worthless for research purposes by the American Library Journal. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 22:49, 9 October 2010 (UTC).

That source is not being used in this article.Georgejdorner (talk) 13:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Recent re-write
The latest edits have introduced a "sea of red ink"; are all these "red links" necessary? Is anyone proposing to write articles on all of these topics? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The "red ink links" gives the administrators some idea of articles still needed. Deleting the red links is a way of indicating that a subject is unimportant enough to merit no article. And I generally don't leave a red link if I don't intend to write an article for that link.

Georgejdorner (talk) 18:23, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Note: I did go on to write articles to connect with the red links.

Georgejdorner (talk) 02:03, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Controversy over escort record
I believe this section needs to be rewritten and tightened. After reading the sources cited in the article, I see the following facts as key:

1) The belief the Tuskegee Airmen had never lost a bomber stemmed originally from a press release from their higher command, the 15th Air Force.

2) Apparently, no one ever checked the validity and truthfulness of the press release.

3) Citations for decorations awarded the Tuskegee Airmen referred to losses, as did combat reports made out by them.

4) The Tuskegee Airmen were so highly regarded that the claim was easily believed.

If I were rewriting this section at present, I would shape it around these facts. However, I wanted to allow discussion that I hope will lead to consensus on this section, so that it does not become a battleground of rewrites and edit wars.

Georgejdorner (talk) 13:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

 * The section already covers those points, does it not? Or is this about emphasis and presentation?  -fnlayson (talk) 14:05, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There has been some recent editing and revisions, consequently, the section now contains all the pertinent points made above. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC).
 * All except the origin of the claim, that is. As the article now stands, the origin of the false claim is vague; many readers will blame it on the Tuskegee Airmen themselves. The fact that many of the Airmen came to believe it is not the same as saying a Tuskegee Airman or Airmen fostered the falsehood, but may come across that way. Georgejdorner (talk) 17:40, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What is your source for the PR release? Binksternet (talk) 17:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The source of the claim that the Red-Tail fighter group while on escort missions had no bomber losses is identified as a newspaper article "332nd Flies Its 200th Mission Without Loss," in the 24 March 1945 issue of the Chicago Defender and that statement is cited. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 18:18, 11 October 2010 (UTC). The phenomenon of an inaccurate statement being repeated ad nauseam is such a common factor in popular media such as newspapers and journals that most academic research demands primary, secondary and tertiary affirmation is a foregone conclusion. FWiW, although instances of Tuskegee veterans making similar statements are recorded, there is no evidence that the original assertion was made by Tuskegee Airmen.Bzuk (talk) 18:27, 11 October 2010 (UTC) I had the opportunity and honour to listen to a presentation by Dr. Richardson, a surviving Tuskegee Airman whose talk did not assert that the bomber escorts had never lost a bomber. In questioning after the presentation, he specifically addressed the issue and insisted that the "popular press" had made such a claim but no Tuskegee Airman had ever thought that bomber escort missions were entirely without loss. He did proudly state that the missions were highly successful, conducted under adversity and were not generally acknowledged during the war. In postwar reassessment of the Tuskegee Airmen, a great deal of attention was paid to bringing the story to the public and to generations to come through an extensive education program, in which he played no small part, as one of the Airmen who made numerous presentations across North America to interested audiences. FWiW, I have also been present at other Tuskegee Airmen presentations at Dayton, Ohio and Oshkosh, and have never heard the claim made that the fighter group never lost a bomber, except when the question came from a member of the audience. Bzuk (talk) 18:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC).

Unfortunately, you or I can't refer to your personal experiences for a source citation. However, I am here for the same reasons you are, to craft an article that honors these men.

When you parsed the news articles referred to, surely you saw this quote:

"Haulman told the Advertiser he had discovered the claim that the Tuskegee Airmen had never lost a bomber they escorted to enemy fire first appeared on March 24, 1945, in an article in the black newspaper Chicago Defender. The newspaper's headline read "332nd Flies Its 200th Mission Without Loss."

The information was attributed only to "the 15th Air Force, Italy."

Which shows that the Airmen themselves were not the source. This is NOT in the WP article. (Touch of irony here: on 24 March 1945, the 332nd won itself a Distinguished Unit Citation).

As for beliefs of individual Airmen, surely you noticed this quote:

"We had a record that was pretty unique," said Luther Smith, 87, a Tuskegee pilot from outside Philadelphia who said he never witnessed a bomber lost to German fighters during 133 missions.

"I should know," he said. "I was there."

Neither of these two points are covered in the present section. A reader will have to call up those sources on screen to find these facts, as I did when I checked the cites As it stands now, the article's slant is that of the journalists–"They weren't so hot after all."

My reading of the situation is that once the tale took off, some of the Airmen believed the press clippings, and it became a point of pride with them. Not that they needed any more. Their record tells the tale.

Georgejdorner (talk) 20:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not at all, The way the section reads is that the story of the bomber escorts never losing a bomber was traced to a newspaper article; other data disagreed. The Air Force did a review. The Tuskegee Airmen themselves through their umbrella organization, also did not accept the original contention and had data that contradicted the popular view. I do not see what your concerns are, the article never says the Airmen believed the story, in fact, they had doubts from the outset. Quoting inaccurate information from one source to another is the only issue, The Tuskegee Airmen never at any time, made the claim they were "perfect" in their role as bomber escorts, it was an example of an urban myth being exploited. Two axioms to apply: "If it sounds too good to be true..." and "when the legend reads better than the truth..." BTW, Billy the Kid was not "left-handed", never had "gunfights" and did not escape the attention of Pat Garrett, but the story continues unabated about the legendary Western outlaw, not the true nature of a young murderer, whose name really was New Yorker Henry McCarty. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 21:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC).

I must wonder if you even read my last entry. As for a Tuskegee Airman believing that they lost no bombers, I repeat the ignored quote above, which comes from a source given in the Tuskegee Airmen WP article:

QUOTE: "We had a record that was pretty unique," said Luther Smith, 87, a Tuskegee pilot from outside Philadelphia who said he never witnessed a bomber lost to German fighters during 133 missions.

"I should know," he said. "I was there." END QUOTE.

So obviously at least one of the Tuskegee Airmen believed it.

Having disposed of that fallacy, I invite you to quote me the portion of the article that traces the bogus info supplied to the "Chicago Defender" back to 15th Air Force. And please skip irrelevancies like Billy the Kid's much-debated birth name. We're dealing in military history here. Something that could be disposed of in about 100 concise words, for crying out loud.

Georgejdorner (talk) 03:10, 12 October 2010 (UTC) And second thoughts:

Doesn't the fact that we can't agree on a simple reading of the existing text tell you there is something wrong with it? Ambiguity is not encyclopedic.

Georgejdorner (talk) 03:10, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

 * I think some rewriting is needed for the section. It'd probably be easier for all us to say something more specific about the source than the source in the WP article though. -fnlayson (talk) 04:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Knock off the condescension, I read and dismissed your arguments twice. The fact that Tuskegee Airmen knew that bombers were lost on their missions is not challenged. One airmen indicated he did not know of a bomber lost on his missions does not translate to all airmen. The story was a contrived and sensationalized one that was attributed to a newspaper article. The Air Force had records that showed the contrary, they did a report, the Tuskegee Airmen did a report, nearly everyone agreed that the report of no lost bombers was inaccurate. Other voices were heard. I thought you might understand that the inferences of urban mythology, I was wrong. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:09, 12 October 2010 (UTC).

Bzuk, I have taken a lot of care to discuss this section with all, including you, because I think a partnership among those of us working on this article would produce the best result.

I agree with your above post, with the exception of your accusation of me being condescending. Might I point out that you never peeped a word about rejecting my previous posts? Can't you see that you gave no indications you even read at least part of my post?

That's why I reprinted the quote proving that a Tuskegee Airman could believe in the false version of the facts; I didn't reprint it just because it contradicted your statement that TAs would not believe in it. I printed it the second time in the form I used because I thought my original post of the quote might not be easily discerned.

I am also baffled by what seems to be your unwillingness to sort through the newspapers' sensationalism and ambiguity and produce a precise encyclopedic account for WP.

I believe the heart of this controversy is a chronological one (the following is based on sources cited in WP article):

9 June 1944: Bombers lost.

12 July 1944: Bombers lost.

18 July 1944: Bombers lost.

20 July 1944: Bombers lost.

26 July 1944: One bomber lost.

31 August 1944: A mission report on the 332nd notes that Colonel Davis's skill held bomber losses to "only a few".

12 September 1944: One B-17 lost.

24 March 1945: "Chicago Defender" runs article based on 15th AF info about the 332nd FG's perfect escort record.

Also 24 March 1945: 332nd wins Distinguished Unit Citation for its escort mission to Berlin. However, some bombers were lost on this mission.

2006–2007: Historians finally start putting together the information that would finally update the original (inadvertently incorrect) "Chicago Defender" article. The conclusion seems to be the loss of 25 or fewer bombers, while other fighter groups escorting bombers were known to lose 25 or more bombers per mission.

Daniel Haulman, USAF Historian, used official reports to find 25 bombers had been lost up to and including 24 March 1945. Tuskegee Airman historian William Holtman scrutinized the same records, and did not disagree.

Lets see if we can use this chronology to produce a clear and definitive section to this article.

Georgejdorner (talk) 19:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Rest assured that I have read all your statements, comments and discussion points. I just do not attribute that much importance to what is now a "non-issue" although it once was a contentious one. Are we "beating a dead horse" now? FWiW, Bzuk (talk) 23:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Disappearing text
Once again, properly sourced information that I added has disappeared from the article without leaving a clue on the Page History. Somehow, this has happened several times since I have been working on this article. This disappearance of text makes me feel uneasily unwelcome.

If there is someone sabotaging my efforts, I would appreciate being treated with the same respect I have shown for prior editors. I have limited myself to removing only such unsourced material as was contradicted by reliable sources, which I then cited. All other unsourced material has been preserved while being placed into continuity.

I am trying to clarify this article as an umbrella article that serves as a focal point for the units that constituted the Tuskegee Airmen, as well as relate their historical importance. As is my custom, I am citing sources for everything. I am working from the principle that extended accounts of feats by individuals or units belong in a bio, either personal or unit. At present, I am trying to gather material to write the bomber squadron histories.

Georgejdorner (talk) 18:38, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Perhaps there is an upload problem at your end. As far as I know, only horribly abusive posts and ones that reveal personal information are removed from Wikipedia, and many of those leave traces in article histories—the posts are noted as deleted, with the note remaining.
 * I doubt you are experiencing a lack of respect. If I saw something going on here out of the ordinary I would be on it ASAP. Binksternet (talk) 21:17, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Is Ambrose reliable?
Given Steven Ambrose's reputation for inaccuracy and plaigarism, can he be a reliable source for this article?

Georgejdorner (talk) 01:43, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No harm done. Judging by a quick look, it seems that Ambie Boy is only mentioned regarding his own work. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 02:15, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

No, not in the slightest, it would probably be best to remove any reference to his work, much of it contains glaring innaccuracies. (213.167.69.4 (talk) 11:43, 5 September 2013 (UTC))

File:Tuskegee airman2.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Tuskegee airman2.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 11, 2011. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2011-06-11. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks!  howcheng  {chat} 16:13, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Pantelleria - not the first time for air power
Currently the text states that the surrender of the island of Pantelleria was "the first time in history an enemy's military resistance had been overcome solely by air power." Is this true? The resistance of Mahsud tribesmen in South Waziristan in 1925 was overcome by air power alone (see Pink's War). Maybe there are other examples. Greenshed (talk) 13:08, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

As I recall, I was the editor who posted the claim about Pantelleria. I do not know what became of the cite for it, but I distinctly recall that the claim was backed by reference to texts on the Tuskegee Airmen.

Greenshed's point is well made. The only possible difference could be that Pantelleria was occupied after its surrender, while the homelands of the Mahsud were not. Whether that niggling point may change the claim, I don't pretend to know.

However this claim of uniqueness turns out, the Tuskegee Airmens' reduction of Pantelleria should remain in the article because it shows that the brass that wanted to eliminate the 99th Fighter Squadron would–to put it mildly–bend the truth to further their aim. In other words, if the "famous first" is deleted, please leave in the rest of the story concerning Pantelleria.

Georgejdorner (talk) 17:17, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

 * The historical instances of air power overcoming an enemy alone are limited. The Tuskegee Airmen's action at Pantelleria is still highly significant.  Greenshed (talk) 17:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Why is the word "white" and the word "race" in quotation marks in this article?
I suspect someone with an agenda is trying to make some kind of point. We read:

''The "white" population of Freeman Field was 250 officers and 600 enlisted men. Superimposed on it were 400 African-American officers and 2,500 enlisted men of the 477th and its associated units. Freeman Field had a firing range, usable runways, and other amenities useful for training. African-American airmen would work in proximity with "white" ones; both "races" would live in a public housing project adjacent to the base.''

HedgeFundBob (talk) 04:43, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Use of quotation marks, commonly called "scare quotes" identify the unconventional or unusual use of a word, or term. In World War II Army parlance, there were no "whites" as such, since soldiers were not identified as such, although it is a commonly understood term today. As to "races", that was more often a colloquialism for discrimination, and during the period, often black or African-Americans were not even considered as a racial group, but were often denigrated as sub-human. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 04:52, 22 July 2011 (UTC).
 * Please link to some reliable source establishing these points. In any case, this reasoning does not strike me as compelling and is entirely too subtle.  How could one infer that the frame of reference of the article had suddenly shifted to "World War II Army parlance"?  I'm not even sure what "races" being "a colloquialism for discrimination" means, either.  I always assumed that "races" referred to the various races of human beings, and am confident this was how the term was employed in the period in question.  Please also link to official Army policy establishing that black wasn't a race.  TIA.HedgeFundBob (talk) 06:18, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

HedgeFundBob;

The fact of racial segregation in U. S. society is so well known that it needs no reference. As can be seen here, the residue of that prejudice haunts us now even in the vocabulary of this article. The quest here is not for a reference to prove something as basic as the presence of air in the atmosphere; it is for basic vocabulary to suit the unjust situation of racial prejudice.

To those of us old enough to personally recall how racial segregation worked in America, Bzuk's comments are a statement of the obvious. However, he is too narrow-gauged. The entirety of American society was that rotten with prejudice. The American military only reflected the society from which it sprang.

At any rate, today's vocabulary monger should probably light on the terms "African-American" and "Caucasian" as the relevant terms.

Georgejdorner (talk) 16:48, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

1949 Las Vegas gunnery contest
I'm a member of the Tuskegee Airmen Inc. and am quite involved with the group as a youth mentor and aviation instructor. I'm also an aviation-history writer for both Air & Space Smithsonian and Aviation History Magazines--byline Stephan Wilkinson. It happens that I'm currently working on an article about the Las Vegas gunnery meet won as a team (not the individual-pilot championship, in which they came in second) by the 332nd Fighter Group. In the last several days, I have interviewed both James Harvey and Harry Stewart, the two surviving pilots from that team of four pilots plus ground personnel. (One pilot was an alternate, a stand-by in case one of the three main team members was hurt or whatever).

This article's description of the winning team having been declared "unknown" at the conclusion of the contest is wrong. What happened was that the winners were openly known and acknowledged, they were photographed with the trophy at a banquet at the Flamingo Hotel, and the 332nd's name was engraved on the trophy--it's currently on display at the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB, if anybody doubts me. Many months later, however, the 1949 Annual of the Air Force Association, which lists all Air Force accomplishments, records, etc. for the year--then for some reason declared the winner of the 1949 Conventional Class (piston-engine aircraft, since there was also a Jet Class) to be "unknown." That one-word description was perpetuated annually until 1993, I believe, when it was finally corrected. The popular myth is that this was all part of a racist attempt by the USAF to discredit the 332nd, but the truth probably is that it was all part of a typical military screw-up; the trophy itself was "lost" for many years and ultimately discovered in a Wright-Patterson storage room in 1996.

I have no interest in editing Wikipedia, nor do I have the time or interest to come up with any of your beloved "citations" to support the above. Your text is wrong, however, and you people can do whatever you wish to correct it. Or not. what the hell, you can use my article as a citation when it's published in January 2012 in Aviation History. Again, or not.173.62.12.111 (talk) 21:43, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

uncited claim
"Some claim that after tallying up the score, the organizers announced the third and second place winners and claimed that the first place squadron was unknown. It has also been claimed that years later the Airmen fought for the recognition for winning the competition, and succeeded."

If you can find a source for this statement, you can put it back in the article. Xaxafrad (talk) 07:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Role of Adjutant General ES Adams
I got this information here: http://books.google.com/books?id=_GqRJYUiWkYC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=Tuskegee+airmen++general+e.s+adams&source=bl&ots=z6Z0U5eeTe&sig=lCzWDcoGuN6_Sk5h5-0rrsO9eFU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Pi1eT-6cE6Tn0QGIu7DGDw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false I'm confused about his role..

Twillisjr (talk) 17:08, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Discrepancies
In one place it stated the "332nd first saw active combat in January 1944", then a couple of paragraphs later the "332nd first saw combat in February 1944". Two of the three separate lists of accomplishments (prior to consolidation) disagreed on the number of DFCs. One said 96, the other "An estimated one hundred and fifty". I left the earlier date and the 150 in for the moment until I can dig into this or somebody else figures them out. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:36, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

 * 96 DFCs. Can't find the 332nd's first month of action, so I took the sentence out. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:25, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

to Jim

Jim I was stationed at the Freeman Field Twin engine Training base in Seymour Indiana at the same time as the Tuskegee airmen. At that time on graduating as Lieutenants they tried to enter the white Officers club. the white colonel Robert E. Selway had some of them jailed. He was relieved of his command. I wrote the details in my novel American Corruption. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.46.198.219 (talk) 22:36, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Poor Military Record
http://www.tuskegee.edu/sites/www/Uploads/files/About%20US/Airmen/Nine_Myths_About_the_Tuskegee_Airmen.pdf

According to this they lost more of their own planes than they shot down. In the same time period, other groups flying the same planes shot down twice as many airplanes as they lost.

Very poor showing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.125.36.164 (talk) 18:04, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Active Duty Air Force Building
On a wall hangs a picture in the commanders section: it explains in brief how the red tails destroyed a ship with machine gun fire, never lost one bomer during their escorts. I am sure, our military would not permt false advertisement of their actions.

As all creeds of men and women come to grip with fact all peoples have and are fighting for freedom[s] in all levels of almost every aspect of our creation the red tails sought to break formation and go after those aircraft who sought to destroy our way to hope, freedom and liberty for all.146.126.51.51 (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Lieutenant, not lieutenant colonel
The first photo caption refers to Lee Archer as a "lieutenant colonel." Archer was never a lieutenant colonel. He was a first lieutenant.173.62.11.254 (talk) 19:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Red Tail Aces
It is my understanding is that there was not a single pilot from all the Tuskegee Airmen to achieve the position of Ace (Five Kills)during the entire War. Is this correct?...Mike Peppard — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.70.248 (talk) 00:48, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

First Lady's Flight - brouhaha
Is "brouhaha" really an appropriate word to be using in encyclopedic prose? It may be part of an english dictionary somewhere but perhaps something along the lines of "public controversy" would be better. My experience with this word always had the connotations of conflict or fighting as in, "the argument led to a brouhaha at the bar." Garyvp71 (talk) 21:23, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

15 January 1650?
Towards the end of the Controversy section, a sentence starts with, "According to the 15 January 1650 Air Force report...."

I'm assuming "15 January 1650" is supposed to be a date, in which case there is obviously a typo. I don't know enough about this topic to correct it (I'm guessing it's supposed to be 1950, but I could be wrong).

I just wanted to bring it to the experts' attention so it can be corrected if needed.

199.241.26.126 (talk) 19:40, 16 September 2017 (UTC)Tim Goodwill

 * Good catch. It was actually supposed to be 28 March 2007! A vandal made the change back in March. Thanks for finding that. - BilCat (talk) 20:13, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

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Last surviving Tuskegee airman
I don't have the time to learn how to edit but FYI for someone: A cover story in today's (May 27, 2018) Detroit Free Press refers to Harry Stewart Jr. as follows: "Stewart, 93, of Bloomfield Hills [Michigan] is the last surviving member of the squadron [301st fighter Squadron] of the famed Tuskegee Airmen." "Tuskegee Airman honored after he's shot down, lynched in WWII," Sunday Free Press [Detroit], Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 1A, 14A. The article deals with the fate of one of Mr. Stewart's fellow pilots, 2LT Walter Manning, who was shot down on Easter Sunday, April 1, 1945 over Austria. (The article describes Mr. Stewart's recollections and presence at the dedication of a memorial to LT Manning in Vienna this past April 1.) Because it refers to his "squadron," I cannot say that he is the last surviving of all Tuskegee Airmen but he has to be close to the last. The article is bylined Brandon Patterson, Detroit Free Press & USA TODAY NETWORK, with his email as BPatterson2@freepress.com. Note one error in the article: The first paragraph refers to "the last bombing run he flew with his friend" but Mr. Stewart describes it as a "bombing escort mission to Austria." They would have been flying the P51 Mustang. The text at note 84 refers to no one knowing how many Tuskegee Airmen are still alive (as of 2008). The answer, as of this Memorial Day, is: Not many and maybe only one.

Roger websters5@aol.com 2601:401:C500:522C:C8A6:5B8E:DA1B:B1C9 (talk) 17:17, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

ONE of the remaining

We have one where I live, and he's still getting around on two feet. So we should ask these individuals and not merely look for publications, since any one of them might be claiming to be 'the last surviving Tuskegee airman.' MaynardClark (talk) 19:33, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

 * See the vet
 * We can see the vet every day. MaynardClark (talk) 19:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Giving Credit to NON Combats for PC Revisionist History. - Just because person was trained at Tuskegee doesn't make them one of the Tuskegee Airmen
Tuskegee Airmen is the popular name of a group of African-American military pilots who fought in World War II.

Their Service record is what made them exceptional..

The Haitians did not serve with them. They were only trained at Tuskegee, then sent back to Haiti to patrol the Caribbean Sea.

Just because person was trained at Tuskegee doesn't make them one of the Tuskegee Airmen.

Their Legacy and honors come from their combat, not just being trained at the only Training base for blacks.

I'm removing the Haitian Trained Tuskegee Air Man. 2603:3020:707:4500:DD00:21A:E8E8:581C (talk) 21:22, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Last surviving Tuskegee Airmen
It has been said that there are AT LEAST THREE surviving Tuskegee Airmen:
 * Enoch O'Dell Woodhouse, Jr., JD - Boston
 * Harry Stewart. Jr. - Michigan
 * Alexander Jefferson

Reportedly, one of those three 'surviving Tuskegee Airmen' passed away near the end of June (a week ago, as of this writing).

According to local Boston narrative, Enoch O'Dell Woodhouse III, JD, is the last surviving Tuskegee Airman. I think some mention should be made of 'where they are today'; and now, this of the last surviving Tuskegee Airmen lives in Boston. Woodhouse himself makes that claim. However, in 2014, there were (purportedly) 7 surviving Tuskegee Airmen (see photo). Then, did six or three or four pass in the five intervening years?

About Woodhouse we can read text in one article which is selectively copied and found widely elsewhere on the Internet (almost verbatim):

 * "Enoch Woodhouse II was born in Boston. In 1944 at the age of 17, he enlisted in the US Army. He attended Office Candidate School (OCS) and was commissioned 2nd Lt. at age 19. He was assigned to the 332nd Fighter Group known as the Tuskeegee Airmen, as Paymaster. Woodhouse and the Tuskegee Airmen played a critical role in the early  integration of the Armed Forces.

 * After retiring from the US Army Air Force, Woodhouse attended and graduated from Yale University. He then studied law at Yale Law School and at Boston University, receiving his JD from the latter. He worked as a trial lawyer in Boston for over 40 years, and in the State Department and for the City of Boston as well.

 * Among his many awards, in 2007 he and the other Tuskegee Airmen received the Medal of Honor, our nation's highest honor, from President GW Bush for facing two wars: one abroad and the other at home in terms of racial intolerance."

According to other text, he would have been born in or about in 1927. I find the birthdate 1/14/1927.

While there isn't much 'out there' in newspapers, there is some - and it is in variable quality sites - from local urban newspapers to Facebook pages of community organizations that have recognized his 'notability' in that category.

Here are some of the sources:

 * Photo of Black History Month Award by Mission Hill Main Streets to Woody Woodhouse, who also lives in Mission Hill, Boston, a section of Boston
 * Facebook page for Enoch O'Dell Woodhouse, II
 * Facebook page for Enoch O'Dell Woodhouse, III, Woody's son
 * Historic Somerville (MA) article of interview with Woody: Sunday, April 12th, 2-3pm: Lieutenant Colonel Enoch Woodhouse, USAF, Retired, Surviving member of the Tuskegee Airmen: My Life in the First African-American Aviation Unit of the US Army Air Force.
 * BU Law School where he COMPLETED a law degree (’55) after his retiring from the USAF, interviewed Woodhouse - After the JD from BU Law School, he "served as an attorney in the Judge Advocate General Office at Hanscom AFB for over 50 years."
 * Historic Somerville (MA) article of interview with Woody: Sunday, April 12th, 2-3pm: Lieutenant Colonel Enoch Woodhouse, USAF, Retired, Surviving member of the Tuskegee Airmen: My Life in the First African-American Aviation Unit of the US Army Air Force.
 * BU Law School where he COMPLETED a law degree (’55) after his retiring from the USAF, interviewed Woodhouse
 * Wyatt M. Event honors past, present and future Airmen. by Mark Wyatt, 66th Air Base Group Public Affairs / Published February 23, 2018. Hanscom AFB Public Affairs website. Accessed June 29, 2019
 * Lt. Col. Enoch "Woody" Woodhouse spoke at the Wilmington Memorial Library Tuesday night. BruceHilliard.com
 * Hall A. Westwood parade to step off Monday morning: Plans are coming together for Westwood’s Memorial Day Parade, which will step off Monday morning. Posted May 26, 2010 at 12:01 AM; Updated May 26, 2010 at 7:34 AM - The article specifically mentions Woodhouse:
 * "At the Old Cemetery, there will be flag raising and another volley. Speakers include Enoch O’Dell Woodhouse, a member of the Tuskegee Airmen, African-American pilots who fought in World War II. Woodhouse is the last survivor of these Airmen. He will be the official parade marshal and will be riding in the parade."

The educational story is: Woodhouse was born 1/27/1927 in Roxbury, Boston, Massachusetts, where he attended English High School of Boston, then earned a bachelor’s degree from Yale University while using his Montgomery GI Bill. He began law school at Yale, but he returned to Boston and transferred to Boston University Law School, where he received a Juris Doctor degree in 1955.

It may be possible to generate a worthwhile article on 'The last surviving Tuskegee Airman' - or at least mention in the text of this article. MaynardClark (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * We read in 2021 that 'Theodore 'Ted' Lumpkin dies at 100' (but are told that he had died in October 2020) and is only getting press now. Why is there reluctance to identify the Tuskegee Airmen collectively (when they are being celebrated locally, where they live? MaynardClark (talk) 03:09, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Surely some journalistic-level effort should be made to list the surviving Tuskegee Airmen. MaynardClark (talk) 15:33, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * US Navy 081110-N-5549O-080 The U.S. national flag waves graciously from the Iwo Jima memorial during a wreath laying ceremony in honor of the 233rd Marine Corps birthday at the Marine Corps War Memorial.jpg

Draft:Tuskegee Airmen, Incorporated
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Mac Ross up for deletion

 * Relisted. Another Tuskegee airmen, among the first to get wings, and a squadron commander.  Kerfuffle over notability.  One of over 60 Tuskeegee airmen articles in the crosshairs.   7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:40, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Relisted. Another Tuskegee airmen, among the first to get wings, and a squadron commander.  Kerfuffle over notability.  One of over 60 Tuskeegee airmen articles in the crosshairs.   7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:40, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Relisted. Another Tuskegee airmen, among the first to get wings, and a squadron commander.  Kerfuffle over notability.  One of over 60 Tuskeegee airmen articles in the crosshairs.   7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:40, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Who qualifies as a Tuskegee Airman?
I have just gone through every bio in the Tuskegee Airmen category and found that there appears to be a very wide interpretation of what qualifies a person to be a Tuskegee Airman. This page states at the top: "The Tuskegee Airmen were a group of primarily African American military pilots (fighter and bomber) and airmen who fought in World War II. They formed the 332d Expeditionary Operations Group and the 477th Bombardment Group of the United States Army Air Forces. The name also applies to the navigators, bombardiers, mechanics, instructors, crew chiefs, nurses, cooks, and other support personnel. All black military pilots who trained in the United States trained at Griel Field, Kennedy Field, Moton Field, Shorter Field and the Tuskegee Army Air Fields. They were educated at the Tuskegee Institute (now Tuskegee University), located near Tuskegee, Alabama. Of the 922 pilots, five were Haitians from the Haitian Air Force and one pilot was from Trinidad. It also included a Hispanic or Latino airman born in the Dominican Republic." So what are the criteria? The narrowest seems to be pilots who attended Tuskegee Institute and served in WWII, while the widest seems to any African-American who served in the USAAF in WWII or even until 1949 when the USAF was integrated. So what qualifies a person to be a Tuskegee Airman? Mztourist (talk) 10:00, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Reliable Sources determine it on a per-case basis. In some instance it might be a single source and be questionable, other cases it will be the majority of sources and quite clear. For Wikipedia purpose, a single generic definition from this page is not sufficiently authoritative to overrule the wide variety of sources that describe individuals as Tuskegee Airmen. Weigh the quantity and quality of sources calling someone a TA. -- Green  C  19:55, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, you're incorrect. The National Park Service has a lesson plan online here using this language: "On June 8, 1946, the last class of aviation cadets graduated from Tuskegee Army Air Field. At the time they completed their requirements 2,483 persons had entered the Tuskegee pilot training program, of which, 994 completed the rigors and earned their pilot wings. Altogether, the participants in the Tuskegee military experiment (later called Tuskegee Airmen) numbered between 15,000 – 19,000 including pilots, mechanics, cooks, doctors, nurses, parachute riggers, gate guards, flight instructors, firemen, radio operators, etc. Their unit formations consisted of the 99th, 100th, 301st, and, 302nd Fighter Squadrons, the combined 332nd Fighter Group, and 477th Bombardment Group, along with their service units." So we have a relatively impartial Government source giving a cutoff date (June 1946), numbers, and a decent grouping. It also looks like the article may have 'borrowed' some of that language for the lede. As one might expect, other sites are somewhat hazy in their definition process (although this paper on the Tuskegee Airmen Inc site mentions the wider definition used by that organization). The linked paper was produced by the AFHRA and to my mind falls into the same RS grouping as the NPS lesson plan. This is a link to an AFHRA search with more info. But there's nothing "case by case" about it, unless someone's looking to pad numbers. Your RS caveat would apply in my view to notability, not status as a technical Tuskegee Airman. Intothatdarkness 20:02, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * matches with what I am seeing on a per-case basis, there is a broad range of inclusion. No one is trying pad numbers. As for 'technical' which implies precision, not even the NPS knows how many rather they give a rough range. The only we at Wikipedia can say, on a per case basis, is by looking at what the majority of sources say, assuming first they fit the general definition of having been participants in the Tuskegee program.  --  Green  C  21:55, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You missed the important part of their breakdown: "participants in the Tuskegee military experiment." That's not per-case or case-by-case or whatever. The wider range accounts for enlisted personnel (the service units) who aren't normally documented in sources aside from primary. There is, however, a fixed number for pilots (actual Tuskegee Airmen if you use the term "airmen" to indicate pilots...and flight instructors were pilots). There are solidly-defined unit affiliations for others (navigators, bombardiers, and other flight personnel), because prior to 1949 those units were segregated. And, again, it gets down to notability. Unit affiliation is fairly simple, and pilot status even more so. Actual notability, however, is a different question. Intothatdarkness 00:40, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * We may be speaking to cross purposes. Anyway, is the point of the source. Many types of people were later called Tuskegee Airmen, not limited to the actual airmen, or even men. A few years ago, the oldest living Tuskegee Airman was a female nurse over 100 years old. --  Green  C  03:58, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * My point was simply that for a certain category of people considered Tuskegee Airmen here, the defining points come down to time frame and unit affiliation. Beyond that it becomes fuzzy. The number padding remark has more to do with outside organizations who might want to expand their membership (and donor) rolls. Intothatdarkness 14:32, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The Documented Original Tuskegee Airman (DOTA) is what was used when handing out the Congressional Gold Medal and follows the definition below. They seem have documented about 14.6k as of the last source available. -- Green  C  16:48, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

According to Tuskegee University : "Anyone -- man or woman, military or civilian, black or white- - who served at Tuskegee Army Air Field or in any of the programs stemming from the 'Tuskegee Experience' between the years 1941-1949 is considered to be a documented Original Tuskegee Airman (DOTA)." Precise and clear from an authoritative academic source. Goes on to say: "There were an estimated 16-19,000 persons in the above category of which 14,632 persons have been personally documented." These numbers match the NPS numbers so it must be using the same definition, more likely NPS is getting its info from the tuskegee.edu researchers. -- Green  C  04:10, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the Congressional Medal of Honor, the above source says:
 * The Tuskegee Airmen were collectively, not individually, awarded the Congressional Gold Medal (CGM) by President George W. Bush and the U.S. Congress on March 29, 2007 at a ceremony inside the Rotunda of the U.S. Capitol. The 300 airmen and widows, who attended the ceremony, received the CGM for all of the estimated 16-19,000 participants of the “Tuskegee Experience,” who are known as documented original Tuskegee Airmen or DOTA.

Again, the same 16-19,000 number received the CGM. Per the NPS this includes anyone who was part of the "Tuskegee experiment". The source says "The “Tuskegee Experience” was originally called the “Tuskegee Experiment,”" thus same thing, the terms can also be used interchangeable with Tuskegee Airmen, a name which came into existence in 1955 as the title of a popular book. -- Green  C  04:27, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * OK this is a useful discussion, but it just shows that the "all Tuskegee Airmen" are notable is a ridiculous assertion. Mztourist (talk) 05:22, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Very much so. It also creates an interesting situation where "original Tuskegee Airmen" don't have to be of a specific race. Intothatdarkness 14:34, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Who says "all Tuskegee Airmen" are notable? That's ridiculous, there are up to 19,000. Yes definition above says "black or white". --   Green  C  16:48, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * User:GreenC as I'm sure you've seen in the Tuskegee Airmen AFDs, various Keep !voters argue that as the Tuskegee Airmen were awarded the Congressional Gold Medal that satisfies #1 of WP:ANYBIO or that they were pioneers of integration and that satisfies #2 of ANYBIO, both effectively saying all Tuskegee Airmen are notable. Mztourist (talk) 04:49, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * ANYBIO automatic inclusion can seem reasonable, until you realize there are up to 19,000 Documented Original Tuskegee Airmen. It's probably a matter of informing. The DOTA definition: "Anyone -- man or woman, military or civilian, black or white- - who served at Tuskegee Army Air Field .." with the number 19,000 - every cook, typist, groundskeeper, etc.. are Documented Original Tuskegee Airmen. Initially the CGM seemed to be for 994 pilots, but then CGM seemed to include anyone who is DOTA under that broader definition. For example recently a woman typist was awarded the CGM as a "documented original Tuskegee Airman". Documenting does not appear to be easy, based on the previous link they got help from a US Congresswoman. The CGM has notability value, it attracts coverage in reliable sources for GNG purposes.  --  Green  C  06:37, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * A unit CGM can't possibly be considered a pass for #1 of ANYBIO as it is not an individual award. As has been pointed out in previous AFDs there are many units with hundred to thousands of members that have received CGMs so it cannot be considered as passing #1 of ANYBIO. Coverage is a different matter and per BASIC is the only relevant basis for notability of Tuskegee Airmen or anyone else anyone absent an SNG. Mztourist (talk) 08:26, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There was also discussion in MilHIst not too long ago and the general consensus was unit awards don't automatically convey notability on an individual. Just walking through the door of a unit that has an award doesn't mean that individual is notable. In addition to people not understanding (or possibly caring) how many DOTA there might be, they also don't seem to understand (or care) how unit awards work. Intothatdarkness 14:30, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Absolutely right, Theodore Johnson (Tuskegee Airman) is a great example of this. Mztourist (talk) 04:15, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Should “black” be capitalized?
I have seen this in more and more articles, and was going to capitalize it in this one, but wanted feedback. FinnSoThin (talk) 05:41, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Puerto Rican flight instructors
I have heard that when white flight instructors refused to teach blacks hot to fly, several Puerto Rican flight instructors stepped up to the plate. Can anyone source that and write an edit? Perhaps @Tony the Marine? Pr4ever (talk) 02:21, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Tuskegee Airman Memorial Highway
I just added one of these in northern CA, on I-80 near Travis Air Force Base. There are two others mentioned on the page. But I think several others exist. For example, Denver CO has one that is so marked in openstreetmap and there is also one near San Diego. Might be a good project to add these. I will, as I am able. RayKiddy (talk) 01:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tuskegee Airmen


text: User talk:203.26.13.4

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:203.26.13.4


text:
USS Fort Snelling (LSD-30)

USS Fort Snelling (LSD-30) was a Thomaston-class dock landing ship of the United States Navy. She was named for Fort Snelling at the confluence of the Minnesota and Mississippi Rivers, for many years the northernmost military post in the land of the Sioux and Chippewa. She was the second ship assigned that name, but the construction of USS Fort Snelling (LSD-23) was canceled on 17 August 1945.

Fort Snelling (LSD-30) was laid down on 17 August 1953 by Ingalls Shipbuilding Corp., Pascagoula, Miss.; launched on 16 July 1954, sponsored by Mrs. Robert P. Briscoe, wife of Vice Admiral Briscoe; and commissioned on 24 January 1955.

Service history
Homeported at Norfolk, Virginia, Fort Snelling carried out an intensive exercise schedule along the east coast and in the Caribbean, almost always with Marines embarked for amphibious training. She made her first deployment to the Mediterranean in 1956, returning the next year again to serve with the 6th Fleet. During her 1958 deployment, she was at sea bound for the island of Rhodes when on 14 July she was notified to land her Marines at Beirut, Lebanon, the next day. Thus, Fort Snelling took part in the immediate response of the U.S. Navy to the Middle Eastern crisis of summer 1958. Several times more before leaving the Mediterranean she returned to the coast of Lebanon to support the Marines ashore.

Through 1959 and 1963, Fort Snelling continued her training operations with marines in the Caribbean and on the Carolina coast. In April 1965, Fort Snelling was ordered to the Dominican Republic as part of a task force which included the USS Boxer (LPH-4), USS Rankin (AKA-103), USS Wood County (LST-1178), USS Ruchamakin (APD-89), USS Yancey (AKA-93) and USS Raleigh (LPD-1). Its main mission along with the task force was to deploy marines to evacuate U.S., Canadian and British citizens. Some 14,000 marines participated.

In 1966, while returning from a Mediterranean deployment, Fort Snelling was assigned as task group commander of the Navy's Palomares Incident recovery operations. Because of her large well deck, Fort Snelling carried the deep diving submarine Aluminaut. In addition, Fort Snelling also deployed the small submarine Alvin from its flight deck via its cranes. In 1966, she participated in the extraction of U.S. Marines from the Dominican Republican crisis.

Fort Snelling was subjected to a simulated chemical agent attack in May 1969 as part of Project SHAD.

In October 1969 Fort Snelling proceeded south to the Ascension area and participated as a secondary recovery ship in the first Manned Orbiting Laboratory (MOL) test launch. As she passed the equator a raucous "crossing the line" ceremony was held in the welldeck aft. Even Captain Henry Hansen USN was initiated along with a throng of other "pollywogs.

Test flight OPS 0855 for MOL was launched on 3 November 1966 at 13:50:42 UTC on a Titan IIIC-9 from Cape Canaveral Launch Complex 40. The flight consisted of a MOL mockup built from a Titan II propellant tank, and the refurbished capsule from the Gemini 2 mission as a prototype Gemini B spacecraft.

After the Gemini B prototype separated for a sub-orbital reentry, the MOL mockup continued into orbit and released three satellites. A hatch installed in the Gemini's heat shield—intended to provide access to the MOL during crewed operations—was tested during the capsule's reentry. The Gemini capsule was recovered near Ascension Island in the South Atlantic by the USS La Salle after a flight of 33 minutes.

On 3 April 1978, Fort Snelling and the replenishment oiler USS Waccamaw (AO-109) collided north of Corsica when the Waccamaw lost steering control during refueling. Despite structural damage both ships proceeded under their own power to Naples, Italy, for repairs.

In August 1982, Fort Snelling embarked members of 24 MAU for a Med cruise. Over the course of 7 months, the Fort Snelling participated amphibious landings in Denmark, Germany, and Turkey, with a liberty call at the Port of Naples, Italy. After a 5-day liberty, the Fort Snelling and other members of her squadron rushed the 24 MAU to Beirut Lebanon to become the backbone of the Multi National Peacekeeping Force. In early March 1983, the 24 MAU was relieved by the 22 MAU. The 24 MAU was then returned Stateside by the Fort Snelling and her squadron mates.

In October 1983, Fort Snelling participated in Operation Urgent Fury (the US invasion of Grenada) as part of Amphibious Squadron Four (PHIBRON-4). Prior to H-hour, six frogmen from SEAL Team 4 departed the Fort Snelling in a SeaFox, a 36-foot, fiberglass-hulled craft, on a night reconnaissance mission. The team surveyed a beach on the eastern shore of the island that been identified as the preferred amphibious landing site. The beach was found unsuitable. Marines from the 22 MAU instead landed at dawn on Grenada by helicopter. Later on D-Day, the Fort Snelling and the USS Manitowoc transited to the western shore of the island to open a second front on the enemy forces. Tanks and jeeps from the Fort Snelling were put ashore after a beachhead at Grand Mal Bay was secured by 13 amphibious landing craft from the Manitowoc.

Upon conclusion of Operation Urgent Fury, Ft. Snelling continued on her deployment with PHIBRON-4 to support peacekeeping operations in Lebanon. During March 1984, Ft. Snelling assisted in the evacuation of noncombatants from Beirut, conducting flight operations and subsequently transporting hundreds of evacuees to Cyprus. The US Navy forces had published Notices to Mariners not to approach within 2,000 yards of navy ships. While Ft Snelling was conducting fueling operations with USS Sylvania, it was struck by a merchant vessel - the merchant sunk in approximately 20 minutes. Leading many to believe the collision was intentional. The damage suffered from the impact led to her decommissioning following the deployment.

Fort Snelling was decommissioned on 28 September 1984 and transferred to the Maritime Administration (MARAD) on 7 September 1989. Her name was struck from the Naval Vessel Register on 24 February 1992 and she was sold for scrapping on 25 August 1995 to Peck Recycling, Richmond, Virginia, for $268,707.

title: USS Fort Snelling (LSD-30)


text:
Parachromis managuensis

Parachromis managuensis is a large species of cichlid native to freshwater habitats in Central America, where it is found from Honduras to Costa Rica. The binomial name refers to Lake Managua in Nicaragua, from which the holotype was obtained. It is a food fish and is also found in the aquarium trade where it is variously known as the jaguar cichlid, managuense cichlid, managua cichlid, guapote tigre, Aztec cichlid, spotted guapote and jaguar guapote. In Costa Rica, it is known as the guapote tigre.

Description
P. managuensis is a robust fish with a silvery or golden-green to purple colour, with a darker moss green shade at the dorsum. The sides show a purple iridescence and the belly is whitish or yellowish. A series of several large black dots then run horizontally along the lateral line area. The fins are often a dark to black coloration, especially when in spawning coloration. The most distinguished feature is a black stripe than run from the eye to the opercular margin. Males grow to a total length of 65 cm and females to 40 cm. The female also lacks the elongated extensions to the dorsal fins.

Ecology
P. managuensis inhabits lakes and prefers turbid waters with mud bottoms and is tolerant to eutrophic and hypoxic conditions. It is a carnivorous, highly predatory species. Adults feed mainly on small fish, while juveniles rely on a variety of macroinvertebrates. It prefers turbid, eutrophic lakes, often found in warm water depleted of oxygen. Its native substrate is mud-bottoms, but it can also be found in ponds and springs with sandy bottoms covered in plant debris. The species inhabits lakes in a tropical climate and prefers water with a 7.0–8.7 pH, a water hardness of 10–15 dGH, and a temperature range of 25 to 36 C.

Distribution
The natural distribution of P. managuensis goes from the Ulúa River in Honduras to Matina River basin in Costa Rica. However, it has been introduced in other countries in Central America, as well as in the United States, as a food source, for aquarism and to control fish populations.

Conservation status
This species has been assessed by the IUCN Red List as least-concern species. It occurs in the Maquenque National Wildlife Refuge.

title: Parachromis managuensis


text:
Dennis Brutus

Dennis Vincent Brutus (28 November 1924 – 26 December 2009) was a South African activist, educator, journalist and poet best known for his campaign to have South Africa banned from the Olympic Games due to its racial policy of apartheid.

Life and work
Born in Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia in 1924 to South African parents, Brutus was of indigenous Khoi, Dutch, French, English, German and Malaysian ancestry. His parents moved back home to Port Elizabeth when he was aged four, and young Brutus was classified under South Africa's apartheid racial code as "coloured".

Brutus was a graduate of the University of Fort Hare (BA, 1946) and of the University of the Witwatersrand, where he studied law. He taught English and Afrikaans at several high schools in South Africa after 1948, but was eventually dismissed for his vocal criticism of apartheid. He served on the faculty of the University of Denver, Northwestern University and University of Pittsburgh, and was a Professor Emeritus from the last institution.

In 2008, Brutus was awarded the Lifetime Honorary Award by the South African Department of Arts and Culture for his lifelong dedication to African and world poetry and literary arts.

Activist
Brutus was an activist against the apartheid government of South Africa in the 1950s and 1960s. He learned politics in the Trotskyist movement of the Eastern Cape.

Although not an accomplished athlete in his own right, he was motivated by the unfairness of selections for athletic teams. He joined the Anti-Coloured Affairs Department organisation (Anti-CAD), a Trotskyist group that organised against the Coloured Affairs Department, which was an attempt by the government to institutionalise divisions between blacks and coloureds.

In 1958, he formed the South African Sports Association, and as Secretary was strongly opposed to a proposed cricket tour by Frank Worrell’s West Indies to South Africa in 1959, leading a successful campaign to have it cancelled. In 1962 Brutus was a co-founder of the South African Non-Racial Olympic Committee (SANROC), an organisation that would be heavily influential in the banning of apartheid-era South Africa from the Olympics in 1964. In 1961, Brutus was banned for his political activities as part of SANROC. As South Africa attempted, in 1968, to get back into the Olympics by arguing that they would field multi-racial teams, SANROC successfully pointed out that those teams were chosen on a segregated basis, leading to South Africa's continued ban from 1968 until 1992.

Arrest and jail
In 1963, Brutus was arrested for trying to meet with an International Olympic Committee (IOC) official; he was accused of breaking the terms of his "banning," which were that he could not meet with more than two people outside his family, and he was sentenced to 18 months in jail. However, he "jumped bail" by trying to leave South Africa to attend the IOC meeting in Baden-Baden, West Germany, on behalf of SANROC and while he was in Mozambique, on a Rhodesian passport, the Portuguese colonial secret police arrested him and returned him to South Africa. There, while trying to escape, he was shot in the back at point-blank range. After only partly recovering from the wound, Brutus was sent to Robben Island for 16 months, five in solitary. He was in the cell next to Nelson Mandela's. Brutus was in prison when news of the country's suspension from the 1964 Tokyo Olympics, for which he had campaigned, broke.

Brutus was forbidden to teach, write and publish in South Africa. His first collection of poetry, Sirens, Knuckles and Boots (1963), was published in Nigeria while he was in prison. The book received the Mbari Poetry Prize, awarded to a black poet of distinction, but Brutus turned it down on the grounds of its racial exclusivity. He was the author of 14 books.

Release from jail
After he was released, in 1965, Brutus left South Africa on an exit permit, which meant he could never return home while the apartheid regime stayed in power. He went into exile in Britain, where he first met George Houser, the executive director of the American Committee on Africa (ACOA). South Africa made a concerted effort to get reinstated to the Olympic Games in Mexico City in 1968. Its Prime Minister John Vorster outlined a new policy of fielding a multi-racial team. At first the IOC accepted this new policy and was going to allow South Africa to compete, but SANROC pointed out that there would be no mixed sporting events within South Africa and therefore all South African athletes chosen for the Games would be chosen under a segregated framework. In 1967, Brutus came to the United States under the auspices of the ACOA on a speaking tour, where he acquainted Americans more closely with the present situation in South Africa, informed American sports organisations about the segregated conditions that South African athletes must endure, and raised money to support the ACOA's Africa Defense and Aid Fund to support the defence of those charged under the apartheid laws. The Supreme Council for Sport in Africa which represented the independent African nations at the IOC threatened to boycott if South Africa was included in the 1968 Games. In co-operation with SANROC, the ACOA organised a boycott of American athletes in February 1968. Jackie Robinson, the first African American athlete to break the colour barrier in major league baseball, published a statement calling for continued suspension of South Africa from the Olympic Games. As a result of the international pressure, the IOC relented and kept South Africa out of the Olympic Games from 1968 until 1992.

Life in the United States
Brutus settled in the United States in 1971 where he would serve as professor of African Literature at Northwestern University.

When his British passport was cancelled in the wake of Zimbabwe's independence in 1980, he was threatened with deportation and fought a protracted and highly publicized legal battle until 1983 when he was granted asylum in the United States. He continued to participate in protests against the apartheid government while teaching in the United States. He was eventually "unbanned" by the South African government in 1990 and in 1991 he became one of the sponsors of the Committee for Academic Freedom in Africa.

Brutus taught at Amherst College, Cornell University, and Swarthmore College before heading, in 1986, to the University of Pittsburgh, where he served a professor of African Literature until his retirement.

Return to South Africa, poetry and activism
He returned to South Africa and was based at the University of KwaZulu-Natal, where he often contributed to the annual Poetry Africa Festival hosted by the university and supported activism against neo-liberal policies in contemporary South Africa through working with NGOs. In December 2007, Brutus was to be inducted into the South African Sports Hall of Fame. At the induction ceremony, he publicly turned down his nomination, stating:

"It is incompatible to have those who championed racist sport alongside its genuine victims. It's time—indeed long past time—for sports truth, apologies and reconciliation."

According to fellow writer Olu Oguibe, interim Director of the Institute for African American Studies at the University of Connecticut, "Brutus was arguably Africa's greatest and most influential modern poet after Leopold Sedar Senghor and Christopher Okigbo, certainly the most widely-read, and no doubt among the world's finest poets of all time. More than that, he was a fearless campaigner for justice, a relentless organizer, an incorrigible romantic, and a great humanist and teacher."

Brutus died on 26 December 2009, at his home in Cape Town, South Africa, from prostate cancer. He is survived by two sisters, eight children including his son Anthony, nine grandchildren, and four great-grandchildren.

The Dennis Brutus Tapes: Essays at Autobiography, edited by Bernth Lindfors, was published in 2011, including transcripts of tapes recorded when he was a visiting professor at the University of Texas at Austin in 1974–75, reflecting on his life and career.

title: Dennis Brutus


text: User talk:65.80.232.32

title: User talk:65.80.232.32


text:
Byala, Varna Province

Byala (Бяла, Άσπρος, Aspros) is a small town and seaside resort in Eastern Bulgaria, located on the Bulgarian Black Sea Coast in Varna Province. It is the administrative centre of the homonymous Byala Municipality and lies in a semi-mountainous region in the easternmost branches of Stara Planina about 50 km south of the city of Varna and 70 km north of Burgas. As of June 2022, the town had a population of 2,205.

History
The first known settlement here, near Cape St. Athanasius (Sveti Atanas) just south of town, is dated back to the 6th century BC. Its Greek name was perhaps Larissa, later, Aspros (White). Later the Roman road service station Templum Iovis (Temple of Jupiter, today's Obzor) was erected with a fortress nearby. The region became part of the First Bulgarian Empire in 681 AD; the Bulgarian fortress of Vicha stood later perhaps on cape Beli Nos (Cape White) north of town.

In the Ottoman period (from the late 14th century through 1878), a village known as Akdere (White creek) existed at the town's present location; it was later renamed Byala. A customs office between the Principality of Bulgaria and Eastern Rumelia was temporarily established in 1878. Until the early 1900s, the majority of the population was ethnic Greek; with the population transfers between Bulgaria and Greece following World War I, about 75% of them are now ethnic Bulgarians tracing their ancestry to the village of Athira (Bulgarian: Bozets) in Greek Macedonia. Byala was declared town on 5 September 1984.

Economy
Byala's economy is based mostly on tourism and agriculture, including viticulture. There are several hotels, camping areas and beaches. There are attempts to develop "village tourism", a new concept that is believed to be interesting to foreigners. Nature landmarks outside Byala include Karadere, one of Bulgaria's last remaining wild beaches with pristine dunes and freshwater wetlands, and the White Cliffs (Белите скали, Belite skali) displaying a classic Cretaceous–Paleogene boundary exposure; there is a demonstration centre.

Cultural Buildings

 * Churches: "Sveta Paraskeva"; "Uspenie Bogorodichno"
 * Schools: Elementary School "Otets Paisii" (registered in 1880, built in 1894); Professional High School for Agriculture (founded in 1959); Kindergarten "Parvi yuni"
 * Stadium: Chernomoretz (built in 1986, seats 1000)
 * Chitalishte: "Probuda" (founded on 1 January 1928, an active local cultural and community centre)
 * Museum of Ethnography (founded in 1986)
 * Military Monuments (mainly commemorating the soldiers who died in World War II)

Development
The town is less developed compared to other tourist areas. The local government supports a few environmental and tourism projects. Byala's port is currently under reconstruction and is planned to become a yacht marina. There has been much new residential building undertaken between 2003 and 2006 due to perceived higher interest from foreign (particularly Danish and Dutch) investors and tourists.

In December 2007, plans were announced for a carbon-neutral resort at Karadere beach, some 3 km north of Byala, Norman Foster's first project in Bulgaria. A series of car free hill towns in a setting of oak forests, meadows and river gorges, Black Sea Gardens will create a year-round community for up to 15,400 residents.

Local groups oppose the project. They say it will turn Karadere beach into a 6-star closed resort complex. The territory is extremely important from an ecological standpoint being part of the Natura 2000 protected zones network and also vital part of bio-diversity zones in Via Pontica for preservation of the habitats of birds.

Due to the wilderness of the territory and lack of any infrastructure, the project needs huge investments and after assessment of these or maybe other reasons, the original investor has backed off (July 2008).

The Bulgarian government's failure to enact regulations outlawing extensive developments in such protected areas may have encouraged the project—even more as Norman Foster's consulting architects company "Projects Ltd." is owned and run by the brother of the Bulgarian Prime Minister.

title: Byala, Varna Province


text:
Charles E. Saunders

Sir Charles Edward Saunders, (February 2, 1867 – July 25, 1937) was a Canadian agronomist. He was the inventor of the 'Marquis' wheat cultivar. Saunders Secondary School in London, Ontario is named for him and other members of his prominent family, including his father, agriculturist William Saunders and naturalist brother William Edwin Saunders.

Early life and education
Saunders was born in London, Canada West, on February 2, 1867, son of William and Sarah Agnes Robinson Saunders. He received his early education in the elementary and collegiate system in London. He received a Bachelor of Arts in chemistry from the University of Toronto in 1888. From 1888 to 1893, he specialized in chemistry at summer school at Harvard University. In 1891, he received a Ph.D for chemistry from Johns Hopkins University. He studied at the Sorbonne.

Saunders learned most of what he knew about plant hybridization at home through his family. Some of his earliest memories are of driving with his father to a fruit farm outside the city limits, where he would help him hybridize grapes, currants, raspberries, and gooseberries.

Saunders married Mary Blackwell of Toronto in 1892.

Careers
From 1892 to 1893, Saunders was the professor of chemistry and geology at Central University in Kentucky. Between 1894 and 1903, he studied flute with E. M. Heindl of the Boston Symphony Orchestra at the New England Conservatory of Music and with Eugene Weiner of the New York Philharmonic Club. He also received voice training. In Toronto, in addition to acting as an agent, he gave lessons in singing and flute playing. In 1895-1896 Saunders was a columnist in The Week, writing about various aspects of music. His musical career was not a financial success, however.

1903–1920
In 1903, William Saunders, Charles' father, appointed him Experimentalist at the Experimental Farm in Ottawa in 1903, a title that became Cerealist in 1905 and Dominion Cerealist in 1910. The new work continued family tradition, for Saunders's father had founded the system of experimental farms established in Canada, and his brother, Percy, had done considerable work in cross-breeding strains of wheat.

Saunders turned enthusiastically to his new tasks. Following up his brother's research, he completed development of 'Marquis' wheat in 1904, a cultivar which showed marked superiority in milling quality for bread flour over other varieties popular in western Canada. 'Marquis' had the advantage of maturing 10 days earlier than its competitors - a factor of great importance in the Canadian wheat belt. The Indian Head Experimental Farm in Saskatchewan raised 'Marquis' wheat for seed, and by 1909 its use was widespread. By 1920, 90% of the wheat grown in western Canada was 'Marquis'. However, 'Marquis' was not resistant to stem rust. In seeking newer and better varieties Saunders developed three other strains of wheat - 'Ruby', 'Garnet', and 'Reward' - specifically adapted to prairie conditions. He was also responsible for improved varieties of oats and barley.

In the search for a hardy wheat that would mature faster, he made hundreds of crosses, proceeding to test the yields. Tests included one called "chewing", whereby Saunders identified strains with strong gluten by chewing a few sample kernels. "I made more wheat into gum than was made by all the boys in any dozen rural schools of a generation ago."

Using a technique he devised himself, Saunders ground his own flour and baked his own bread in small loaves to measure volume.

Working with 'Red Fife', which had been imported and developed by David Fife from Ontario, Saunders crossed it with 'Hard Red Calcutta'. The new cultivar 'Markham' showed great promise, but its offspring were not uniform. After many trials at the Agassiz experimental farm, a winner emerged - 'Marquis'.

In 1906, surplus 'Marquis' seed was shipped to Indian Head, Saskatchewan, for additional testing.

In 1911, 'Marquis' won the Canadian Pacific Railway Prize of $1,000.00 for the best bushel of hard spring wheat grown in North America. This was the first of many prizes.

The only drawback of 'Marquis' was its susceptibility to rust. Not until 1947 was a rust-resistant variety developed at the Central Experimental Farm in Ottawa. It was named 'Saunders'.

1920–1922
By 1920, 90% of the wheat crop in western Canada was 'Marquis'.

Saunders also applied his methods to barley, oats, peas, beans, and flax, introducing several new cultivars of each.

He wrote extensively on the subject and many of his thoughts on cereals were presented to scientific conferences and societies and printed in scientific magazines.

Retirement
In 1922, after suffering a physical breakdown, Saunders resigned his position and moved to Paris with his wife.

From 1922 to 1925, he studied French literature at the Sorbonne. In the latter year, he returned to Ottawa briefly, but in 1928 he moved to Toronto. Though retired, he continued to lecture on 'Marquis' wheat and the French language.

In 1928, Essais et vers, a collection of Saunders' French essays and poems, was published by Louis Carrier and Cie, Les Editions du Mercure, in Montreal and New York. The work received critical acclaim in the French press, especially in Quebec.

Death
Saunders died in Toronto on July 25, 1937. Tributes to him came from around the world. In The London Daily Express, his obituary read: He added more wealth to his country than any other man. Marconi gave power. Saunders gave abundance. Great lives, these!

Honours
He is a member of the Canadian Science and Engineering Hall of Fame.
 * In 1921, Saunders was made a Fellow of The Royal Society of Canada.
 * In 1921, he was awarded an Honorary Doctor of Laws and Letters by the University of Western Ontario.
 * In 1925, he was awarded an Honorary Doctor of Science from the University of Toronto.
 * In 1925, he received the Royal Society of Canada's Flavelle Medal for Science.
 * He was knighted by King George V in 1934 for his contribution to agriculture.
 * In recognition of his work in the French language he was decorated by the French government and was presented with the Medaille de l'Académie française.

title: Charles E. Saunders


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sith Efrican English

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. dbenbenn | talk 01:57, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sith Efrican English
I wouldn't normally recommend deleting a redirect, but this just looks like a cheap accent joke. A google search for "Sith Efrican" reveals three entries, which would seem to imply that it's not very common as a colloquialism. CJCurrie 23:26, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete joke. Gazpacho 23:55, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, 3 Google hits, possible prank. Megan1967 03:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, but redirects ought to go to Redirects for Deletion. — Ливай | ☺ 03:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Star-Wars-Related bad joke, or possibly just a Regular bad joke. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 13:30, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - I don't think it's anything to do with Star Wars, just a play on the accent (Google returns more links for "Seth Efrica" and "Seth Efrican", however). If there was an actual 'sith efrican' English dialect, like the Australian strine, it might be worth keeping, but as far as I am aware there isn't. -Ashley Pomeroy 01:24, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC) (...time passess) Oh, hang on, there is in fact an article about South African English, on 'Wikipedia', which is a sort of online encyclopaedia with the twist that anybody can edit it. It's even linked from the article I am recommending for deletion. In my defence it's half past one and there's something wrong with me. -Ashley Pomeroy 01:30, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Anybody can edit that Wikipedia thingie!  How could that possibly ever work?  --BM 13:25, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Carrp | Talk 04:30, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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text:
User talk:Del Crow

Re: Spin Glass Manganese. Does this not relate closely to several vertebrate "diseases", ie BSE, CJ, vCJ, AD, PD...ALS, IBM, etc.? The Manganese used by Superoxide Dismutase has a short "life" of about 24 hours, is unstable, and is represented in "fibrils" in the longer-term human diseases. My "tracking" of IBM through a maze of many abstracts has led me to this supposition though I had not seen the term and description "Spin Glass" which seems to fit so well with these biological problems. Del Crow

title: User talk:Del Crow