text:
Talk:Cream soda

Jewish?
Is this really a Jewish food? -Litefantastic 23:24, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm also skeptical... I used to live in Toronto, which has a significant Jewish population, and never noticed any particular predeliction for cream soda among the Jews. It also didn't seem to be regularly stocked by the Jewish groceries. Psychonaut 01:01, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I'm removing it. MrHate 05:35, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * On the same note, I also removed the line that said 'Cream soda is a sweet carbonated beverage drunk in North America'. Surely it's not possible that the author thought cream soda was isolated to one continent? MrHate 05:40, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Dr. Brown's Cream Soda is very popular among New York Jews and throughout the northeastern US as far as I've seen. It's sold as a Jewish specialty food from Boston to Philadelphia, possibly due to association with New York kosher delis.
 * Yeah but that's just Dr. Brown's, they make more than creme soda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 21:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it is infact not Jewish, cream soda was developed in the 1850s and there is no indication it was associated with any group of people. Just a creative recipe. Dsoneil (talk) 12:13, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

But how?
We certainly have the what on cream soda. (takes a few more sips).

But my pressing question is, How are cream sodas made?. Esp the vanilla kind (my favorite)

thanks!

Glutinous?
The article mentions the UK version has a 'glutinous' texture. Australian cream soda certainly has a noticeable 'mouth feel' that I would have described as fatty myself (glutinous usually implies elasticity), so can anyone work out whether this is common to most cream sodas? It's certainly likely that unusual feel in Australian and UK products would descend from a common tradition. And if so, is it fat, glycerine, gluten, smegma etc?58.106.70.70 (talk) 03:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)snaxalotl

Is all cream soda vanilla, and if not what other flavors are there? As far as vanilla flavor goes, my impression is that this tends to be "french vanilla", i.e. incorporating caramel/butterscotch/custard flavors. Shed some light, anyone? 58.106.70.70 (talk) 03:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)snaxalotl

And why?
Why is cream soda called "cream soda"? They don't appear (other than the Italian variety) to be made with cream. Kelly Martin (talk) 20:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. I saw the green Cream Soda in South Africa (and didn't really like it), and didn't quite understand what it was. Does it contain cream? (surely doesn't look that way!) If not, what does it contain? So I came to look in this article, and it only left me more confused. According to this article, "Cream Soda" can be of any color (green, pink, brown) and of any taste. So What is common between all the different "cream sodas"? And why are they called that? Nyh 13:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm reasonably sure that the cheap stuff we get here (the UK) initially tastes of cream for the first few mouthfuls but then disappears and essentially tastes like cheap lemon aid. I used to attribute this to the presence of lactic acid in the ingredients but this may have been one of the many non-facts I have accumulated over the years, I'll check it out tomorrow.--Pypex 00:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur that the etymology (and/or history of the stuff) isn't well explained by the article. Why is it called "cream" when it doesn't contain any? Maikel (talk) 12:01, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

 * The edits on the history I made have been deleted, but the etymology is clear, it was simply cream or forzen cream added to soda in the 1850s. There are ads and articles in historical newspapers that clearly state this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsoneil (talk • contribs) 12:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Canadian Cream Soda
The article claims that Canadian cream soda is mostly pink, but, in Montreal and Ottawa, I'm not sure if I ever recall seeing pink cream soda.

Crush cream soda has a pink label, but the colour of the drink itself is clear, as are the supermarket brands. In fact, the only coloured cream soda I personally recall ever seeing on supermarket shelves here was A&W, back when they briefly tried selling the brown American-style cream soda up here back in the early 1990s. I'm not saying that pink cream soda doesn't exist up here, but I don't think it has a significant market share.
 * I can attest that it's pink in Regina and in Toronto. Toronto's a pretty big market, so I wouldn't call it insignificant. —Psychonaut 13:10, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

 * While Jones Soda sells a clear version in BC, Crush's version is the most prominent, and it's bright pink. Maybe this is something like the white margarine thing... A&W when I do find it is also fruity and pink, rather than the old vanilla / brown version that they used to have here. Xinit 16:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Cream soda is pink in Winnipeg (Canada) as well, but depending on the brand, Canadian versions can be clear as well.

Also almost always pink throughout Eastern Canada. 24.89.227.31 07:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Down here in "the states" we only have clear and light brown cream soda, pink and blue cream soda is unheard of on the market. Also, what makes it makes ot pink or blue?--Witeandnerdy 00:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I was surprised to that most cream soda isn't pink. In British Columbia, the only non pink cream soda I've seen is Jones, and it's regarded as bizarre. Stargate70 19:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

President's Choice cream soda is definitely canadian and definitely red. here is a (long) link: http://www.presidentschoice.ca/LCLOnline/products.jsp?catIds=cat40002&type=details&catIds=109&numPerPage=24&sortOrder=byRate&productId=18835. 99.245.20.140 (talk) 21:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)soda drinker.

 * I am drinking clear President's Choice cream soda at this very moment. Just saying. Puck35 (talk) 23:35, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

 * Here in British Columbia, cream soda is generally red or pink. However, the local Dollar Tree dollar store which carries import drinks I can find 3 colours: The Pop shoppe red, DG "Sof drink" clear and then Dad"s old fashioned blue. They all share basically the same ingredients, a very generic pop base, a preservative and then the clear simply describez its flavors as natural and artificial, the blue has Brilliant blue, and the red has amaranth as well as artificial flavor, and the only one with cane sugar and not high fructose corn syrup. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:8D80:482:CB36:E84F:B1FF:FE1C:2CD4 (talk) 02:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

UK Cream Soda
I was surprised to see that Cream Soda is a world wide phenomena. I drank it as a child - almost invariably Ben Shaw's of Huddersfield - or GeeBee (George Barraclough) - a local soft drink manufacturer in the area.

My understanding was that it originated in American Ice Cream parlours - and was the resultant drink left over from an Ice Cream Float - which is a scoop of vanilla ice cream floating on a long glass of Lemonade (or occasionally other soft drinks) - note that this means carbonated 'fizzy lemonade' - rather than the still US version sold today. So the vanilla flavour derives from the ice cream. The drink was usually sold as "American Cream Soda" (despite being made in Huddersfield) and was clear - as it still is - although there was another pink variant called "Raspberry Cream Soda" - presumably because the only other commonly available ice cream flavour in West Yorkshire at the time (late '60s) was Raspberry Ripple - Vanilla with a ripple of raspberry sauce running through it.

Cream soda has a peculiar taste in that it always taste slightly warm no matter how well chilled it is - perhaps the glutinous taste referred to.

78.32.193.115 (talk) 14:02, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Additions to this article
I believe we should add what the ingredients are(all of them)how it is made, and the history of cream soda.--Witeandnerdy 00:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree on the ingredient list. I just bought Fanta's cream soda (Canada) and was surprised to see grapes on the label, apparently they add concentrated grape juice. You can just barely taste it and leaves a bit of an unpleasant taste in my mouth. Couldn't see any vanilla on the label, though that may well fall under the "flavourings". --Matt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.131.237 (talk) 00:18, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Ingredient list of Sparletta Creme Soda: Carbonated water, sugar, flavourant, citric acid, sodium benzoate, preservatives and colourants, tartrazne and brilliant blue. I have no idea what is hiding as flavourants, or as colourants. jonathon (talk) 15:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

American Cream Soda
CF:

http://www.gleesongroup.ie/brands/softdrinks/country (ireland) http://www.cocacola.co.za/product_sparletta.aspx (South Africa)

http://demo35338.srv100.webshopdemo.net/product/barrs-american-cream-soda-330ml-64/ (Scotland)

http://www.eireshop.ie/products/view/8516/CountrySpringAmericanCreamSoda.html

http://www.food-database.co.uk/food/Drinks-_-Soft/Farmfoods/American-Cream-Soda.htm (UK)

 * Let us look at these examples:
 * Ireland. Dead link.
 * South Africa. Sparletta "Creme soda".
 * "Scotland". This is a Danish company where you can order Scottish "Cream Soda", but the Danish order form calls it "American". The same order form that uses the English word "Platsic". Reliability: low.
 * Eire. Country Spring "American Cream Soda". Same as the image heading the article.
 * UK. Farmfoods "American Cream Soda".

 * When we try tracking down this Farmfoods example further, we find
 * http://www.oldestsweetshop.co.uk/sweets.asp?secid=8&swtid=177 "American Cream Soda" Kali, North Yorkshire.
 * http://www.aquarterof.co.uk/cream-soda-sherbet-american-cream-soda-p-370.html "Cream Soda Sherbet (aka American Cream Soda)", Lancashire.
 * http://www.thetraditionalsweetshop.co.uk/product.php/215/american-cream-soda "American Cream Soda" as a sherbet flavour again, as both of those above. Leeds.
 * http://ukladyluck1.piczo.com/waterotherfluids?cr=5&linkvar=000044 This site appears to list every drink commercially available in the Mother Country. Here "American Cream Soda" appears to denote a style distinct from "Traditional Cream Soda".

 * So, "American Cream Soda" is not another name for cream soda. It is name for a specific style of cream soda. And it is in the British Isles where this distinction is relevant.
 * Varlaam (talk) 05:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Ordering of the international variations
The schema for ordering the international variations should be made explicit. Otherwise, the listings should be alphabetical by continent, then by country. Froid 22:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

 * That is an utterly ridiculous notion, putting Africa first. The order seems fine now.
 * Varlaam (talk) 04:28, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with putting Africa first? 197.89.224.197 (talk) 10:50, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Colors
Is there a reason it's regularly dyed different colors without modifying the flavor any? It's such a weird thing to do, certainly unprecedented in any other kind of soda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 21:16, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

What is "cream soda", anyway?
These beverages are all so different -- in recipes/ingredients, flavor, appearance, texture -- what do they have in common except the name? ISTM that that point should be right up there in the lede. --Thnidu (talk) 18:45, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I have attempted to answer this but I've been labeled "spammer" because I linked back to my research. The actual history in this post is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsoneil (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Fair use candidate from Commons: File:Jones Cream Soda.jpg
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Fair use candidate from Commons: File:Cream sodas.jpg
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External links modified
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External links modified
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Relation to Egg Cream?
I always figured that cream soda was a knockoff of egg cream, which apparently has never been bottled successfully. No? Shocking Blue (talk) 11:48, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Caribbean and Latin American Section Could Be Improved
This article merges together the Caribbean and Latin America but while red cream soda may be the most popular in Latin America, all of the cream sodas listed as brands in the Caribbean countries on that list are actually clear vanilla-flavoured cream sodas (much like Barr’s Cream Soda in the U.K) - indeed another leading brand called Bigga isn’t listed here, and we don’t have an article about it, but it’s also a clear vanilla-flavoured variety. It would make sense to split this section into two new ones and explain this, as it is misleading as it stands. Also the link for Crema Soda currently redirects to Tropics for seemingly no reason. Overlordnat1 (talk) 02:01, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This section has now been improved by Marisauna and me. Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:36, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Country Spring
I’ve added some background to the Irish section for Country Spring cream soda but I can’t prove that it is currently produced and sold by C&C Group or anyone else, perhaps it has been discontinued? Overlordnat1 (talk) 09:25, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cream soda


text:
Talk:Tuatha Dé Danann

[Untitled]
According to a book read on the air by Dr. Gene Scott, the TV evangalist, the TDD are actually the Tribe of Dan - one of the lost tribes of Isreal.

For anyone to believe that the Tuatha De Danaan are the lost tribes of Dan of Israel are incorrect. Dan is short for the Irish Goddess Danu(Mother Goddess) in other words Mother Earth as in Greece she is called Mother Gaea. You have to stop using imagery sources. We need physical written evidence first. Actually the Tuatha De Dannan were never a mythological race. It was said during the Fifth invasion, that the Tuath De Dannan came on ships that blocked out the sun, either by sky or by sea.

We have NO proof that they take their name from the "Mother Goddess". Like the Tribe of Dan explanation, it is merely a theory. It is worth noting that the Bible refers to the Tribe of Dan as seafarers and they were among the first to disappear. Acorn897 (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I've given in to my frustration and spelt the name right. "Danaan" is not an Irish spelling.--Nicknack009 23:25, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * If you listen to TV evangalist's you'll go along way : aye right [[User:Culnacreann| Culnacréann

]] Horse Ireland 19:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I've seen alot of reference to the Tuatha De Danann as gods, but I was wondering, has the comparison been made between them and the Elves? --Solacium Christiana 01:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Many times. Tolkien reportedly used some of the TDD myths for some of his material. Gabhala 13:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I always figured it was "Tribe of Diana" and were a group of Greek colonists. They reportedly had flutes and harps, great archery skills, and advanced armor and weapons.They were also known to speak with another language and had great singing skill. It seem to me to be an obvious link to Greek culture and technology.WereTech (talk) 04:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Sources for geanealogic tree?
ATTENTION. Which are the sources of this geanealogic tree? According to Lebar Gabala and Keating's genealogies, Bres was son of Elatha son of Delbaeth son of Dot son of Nét; than Bres was brother of Dagda and Ogma. Please, somebody control here: http://www.bifrost.it/CELTI/Appendici/GenealogiaT.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.75.91.214 (talk • contribs)

 * This article doesn't seem to list any sources at all. Other than that it's very good. Could someone add some sources in ? Otherwise one of those big "This Article does not cite any refences" info boxes is likely to appear. --WaterWolf 17:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Tuatha Dé Danann in fiction.
Isn't the Tuatha Dé Danann in fiction a bit whimsical and unnecessary ? The fiction that is listed there has only very tenuous links to the subject. Also, there has been so much Irish fiction written on the subject (The DeDanann Isles series by Michael Scott and The Giltspur series by Cormac MacRaois come instantly to mind), that if it was all listed, the list would be about five times the length of the original article.

Reply: I think based on analogies with other wikipedia entries that it's not out of place to have a list of uses in popular culture, especially when they link to other wikipedia entries. That said, I think the bit about the submarine could be shortened to just the first sentence, as it's entirely unconnected with the history or mythology and links to an extensive entry of its own for those interested. --Frippo 22:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As the Tribe of Dan
I've removed the section 'Tuatha De Danann as the Tribe of Dan' - It was less than two lines long; and all it did was claim that British-Israelists believe that "the Tuatha De Danann are indeed the lost Tribe of Dan", and proceeded to link to a poorly-written 'debunking' article at a Bible essay website. Conjecture surrounding the Lost Tribes of Israel, though generally interesting enough, does not need a mention here. --Knyght27 05:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * why not? mention of the tribe of Dan in the context of British Israelism may well be justified here. I agree it doesn't deserve its own section though. dab (ᛏ) 09:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The removed paragraph should be removed as it is a valid assumption. Just as valid as the "Mother Goddess" theory. Was it removed because Knyght27 disagrees with it? Hardly a dispassionate reason! Acorn897 (talk) 16:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

move
if we're going to mark long vowels in the title, it should be Túatha Dé Danann (or Tuatha De Danann, but not Tuatha Dé Danann), see tuath. dab (ᛏ) 07:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

 * The Dictionary of the Irish Language (Old and Middle Irish) lists túath (with a fada). The Collins Pocket Irish Dictionary (Modern Irish) gives tuath (without). It seems either is possible, depending on period. --Nicknack009 17:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Popular Culture
The Popular Culture section was removed as irrelevant. I'm curious as to how the decision on degree of relevancy was reached? Surely the section would be very relevant to someone who had read something on the TDD and wanted to find more in a similar vein? Gabhala 13:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is that it wasn't a well-formatted discussion of the appearance of the Danann in popular culture, rather just a laundry-list of various appearances of the name. It added nothing to the discussion or understanding of the article subject. And it is not Wikipedia's purpose to let people find similar media which they might enjoy. I suggest Gnooks for that. --Eyrian 22:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe the best option is to spin the section out into a daughter article. I'm not a fan of these sections, and they are unecyclopedic, but this usually works leaving the main article unaffected. Ceoil 22:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That article would likely be entirely devoid of relevance or sources, and would probably be swiftly deleted (see WP:IPC). Further, no harm isn't a valid reason. I simply do not see the kind of merit necessary appearing. If somebody wants to write a well-sourced section/article about the portrayals of the Danann in popular media, that's fine. But a laundry-list of appearances without context or analysis (which must be attributed) doesn't do any good. --Eyrian 23:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be the responsibility of the people adding the pop-cult factiods to justify that article's presence. If any element of any article is devoid of relevance or sources, it needs to go. My suggestion is based around the fact that this project inevitably attracts cruft; fine, spin it out, to grow and later die in a place where only the servers and speedy people need worry about it. Ceoil 23:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * OK. As I said, I was just curious. Gabhala 21:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The list of appearances of this subject in literature was interesting and intriguing. An encyclopedia may list such references. It seems that a set of admins are on a crusade against popular culture and trivia. I will quote the list shortly but my question here is why delete the list instead of requesting that people list references to enhance the relevancy of this section which you deem not worthy of this article? It seems a bit arbitrary and a whole lot like a campaign to prove yourselves right rather than allowing for the organic, useful growth of an article...
 * This isn't useful growth. It's the accumulation of silly little references, without any kind of context or analysis. --Eyrian 00:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Agreed. The factoids are also unsourced.--Cúchullain t/ c 08:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

 * This argument has been running for a very long time now. As I already said in the 'Tuatha Dé Danann in fiction' section above, I think this section is not needed in the article. 90% of the listed pop culture references simply name check the Tuatha Dé Danann and are completely irrelevant. It's the kind of fluff a section like that will attract. There are far more relevant items that could be listed but the list would end up being huge. I'm not opposed to a separate article on this but it shouldn't be included in this article. --WaterWolf 09:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

- Slaine: The Horned God first appeared in the British comic 2000AD No. 330 in 1983 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.148.62.141 (talk) 12:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Popular culture - which keeps getting deleted

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann (spelled Tuatha Dé Danaan in the books) play a prominent role in Karen Marie Moning's novels. The first set, the Highlander series, are standalone romance novels that are best read together and in order and the Fever series which are suspense novels (so far, no romance) the first of which is "DarkFever".

 * The exotic characters in Julian May's Saga of Pliocene Exile are based on Tuatha Dé Danann and Fir Bolg.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann, and the Fomorians (spelt Fomhoire) play vital roles in Juliet Marillier's "Sevenwaters Trilogy"

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in a chapter of Poul Anderson's book The Broken Sword, a fantasy novel placed in northern Europe during the Middle Ages. The hero Scafloc travels from Britain to Ireland and meets the People of Danu in a deep sidhe.

 * In Eoin Colfer's book Artemis Fowl, it is said that Dé Danann created the Giant's Causeway with the force of their magic blast while fighting the demon Fomorian.

 * In Keith Taylor's Bard series, the central character, Felimid Mac Fal, is descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann. Mac Fal has an ancestral sword, Kincaid, which bears an ancient curse: if it falls into the hands of anyone not descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann, that person will die before the next sunset.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann (spelled Tuatha de Dannon within the game) appear in the online game City of Heroes as enemies with the appearance of hulking, green creatures with antlers. They are sometimes led by 'Boss' monsters called "Bres".  In the game, they reprise their role as enemies of the Fir Bolg, who are now pumpkin-like creatures.  This is explained in-game as a side effect of the two groups having been transported to their new home (and constant warzone), the Croatoa sector.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in Diane Duane's book A Wizard Abroad, in which the battle of Lugh and the Formori is resumed in modern times. Lugh uses his spear to kill Balor of the Evil Eye, king of the Formori. The spear is said to be the mythical Spear of Destiny.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann are featured heavily in Morgan Llywelyn 's book Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

 * Many of the Tuatha Dé Danann appear in Laurell K. Hamilton's Merry Gentry series of books, and mostly centers upon the Unseelie sidhe, who used to be gods, although they themselves were not always of the Unseelie court.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann are featured prominently in Alison Baird's novels The Hidden World and The Wolves of Woden.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann are referenced in the Outlanders novel series by Mark Ellis (aka James Axler) as having engaged in a long war with the Anunnaki for possession of the Earth. The last of the Danann, the mad god Maccan, has appeared twice in the series (Dragoneye and Mad God's Wrath), wielding the deadly Silver Hand of Nuadha.  The Danann princess Fand has also appeared in Outlanders.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann (TDD-1) is the codename of one of MITHRIL's advanced submarines in the Full Metal Panic anime/manga series.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann are presented as a water-breathing species from Thierna Na Oge, one of the five lost cities of Atlantis in the 1986 Aquaman comic book limited series by Neal Pozner and Craig Hamilton.

 * They are portrayed as gods in Mark Chadbourn's The Age of Misrule trilogy, in which the ancient gods return to present-day Britain.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in the roleplaying game Shadowrun. In the context of the game, they are Irish elves who appeared after the magical awakening of 2011. They claimed Ireland as their homeland, renaming it Tír na nÓg. They consider human and other non-elven Irish to be their inferiors, whom they refer to as Firbolg. Non-Irish elves often view them as a model to emulate.

 * In the roleplaying game Changeling: The Dreaming, the Tuatha Dé Dannan are mysterious godlike beings who are ancestors of the fae.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann inspired a Brazilian Celtic/Folk Metal band, Tuatha de Danann (band), whose lyrics are mainly about fantasy and celtic folklore.

 * The Tuatha Dé Dannan also inspired a well-known traditional Irish band, De Dannan.

 * The Fir Bolg are represented in the online game World of Warcraft as Furbolgs, bearlike, hulking, feral, tribal creatures with large bellies, usually wielding spears.

 * The MMORPG Dark Ages (computer game) players are referred to as 'Tuatha de Danaan' a slight variation of 'Tuatha Dé Dannan'.

 * Manau, a celtic/hip hop group from Britanny, has a popular song called La Tribu de Dana. Which is French for 'Tuatha de Danaan'. In the song, adapted from Alan Stivell's, Manau, tells the story of a celtic warrior.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in Stephen R. Lawhead's epic Pendragon Cycle as the mythical survivors of the lost continent of Atlantis. Directly descended from a king of these Fair Folk, Charis (who later becomes the legendary "Lady of the Lake") marries the greatest of the Druids, a mysterious orphan named Taliesin.  Their son, Merlin, carries on his father's legacy of the great Kingdom of Summer, culminating in Arthur's ascendence as king of all Britain, and beyond.

 * In Grant Morrison's comic book metaseries Seven Soldiers, many elements of the Tuatha de Danann myth appear, especially issue #1 which contains their four cities, some of the four weapons, and a reference to the Silver Arm, Nuada's nickname.

 * Michael Moorcock includes themes of Celtic mythology and the Tuatha Dé Danann in the Corum books of his Eternal Champion seriesc. In this mini series, non-human protagonist and aspect of the Eternal Champion, Prince Corum fights fomorians and, like Nuada, has a silver hand.

 * The Tuatha Dé Danann are depicted in the comic Sláine by Pat Mills.

Pronunciation
Would some nice person like to add how Tuatha Dé Danann is pronounced? An IPA guide or a spoken .ogg file would be ideal. Peter1968 (talk) 12:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

 * I've added an attempt at the IPA that's as right as I can make it for modern Irish. The Old Irish pronunciation is more or less the same, except the th would be pronounced like an English th, not an h. --Nicknack009 (talk) 19:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the Irish IPA following the standard used at the Irish phonology article and added Old Irish. Note that these are phonemic (//) rather than phonetic ([]) transcriptions. The transcription at Old Irish only marks palatal consonants, so I've followed that practice for OI. As far as the lenition goes, I don't pretend to have any detailed knowledge of OI, I'm just following this...

"10.01. Nominal inflections which brought about lenition in the following words, notably adjectives and genitives, are the nominative singular feminine, the nominative plural masculine, the genitive singular masculine and neuter, the dative singular of all genders..."

- R.P.M. & W.P. Lehmann

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 05:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Tuatha Dé Danann family tree
Can some one please insert Bres as Brigid's husband and Ruadan as their son. I have no idea how to figure out how to edit that stupid chart, but this correction needs to be made. If you need a source check out Gray, Elizabeth A. ed. & trans. Cath Maige Tuired: The Second Battle of Mag Tuired. Kildare: 1982. pp 42. Cheers.206.188.67.28 (talk) 15:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Tuatha Dé Danann and Greek Danaans
I have restored the fact that the TDD and the Greek Danaans are not related. I don't believe it needs a cite, as it should be blitheringly obvious to anyone that any similarity between a misspelling of an Irish word and an Anglicisation of a Greek word, which doesn't exist between the original Irish and Greek words, must be coincidental. The only references linking them are in popular "ancient mysteries" type books, which have no standards at all. Any reputable scholar writing on either subject would consider the fact there is no link too obvious to have to state. Popular books are full of gibberish about Celtic subjects, and it unreasonable to expect scholarly sources refuting them all. --Nicknack009 (talk) 23:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

"Are not known to be connected" is a perfect statement of fact. Are not connected is description of a universal negative, which cannot be proven, unless it be shown that some positive fact makes the conclusion impossible. If so, that positive fact should be stated. If we can say that Tuatha Dé Danann is known to be derived from X of Indo-European provenance while Danaos comes from Y of Indo-European provenance then we have knowledge of separate origins. Only then could we make the absolute claim that they are not related. Until then, they are not known to be relaetd, their relation is doubted, or scholars believe that claims of a relation are unsupported. If you want to say that, go ahead.

I haven't read those sources which you refer to as ancient mystery books. If they were to claim that the Latinate Dana-an work meaning people of Danaos like Rom-an means "people of Rome" then they would be perhaps be making a false identification between the -an endings. But the question remains that the origin of Dan- in the Tuatha Dé Danann is unknown, and hence is not known to be connected to Danaos. If the claims of nonserious scholars (with which I am not familiar and in which I am not interested) are such that they need to be shown to be opposed by serious scholars, then that can be mentioned with some explanation.

But "scholars see no connection" is accurate and avoids claims of omniscience. Kja er (talk) 00:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it is highly plausible that the Tathe Dé Dannan were the Phoenicians. First, there is the settlement of the Peloponnese by the sons of Aegyptos and the daughters of Danaos, as mentioned by Herodotus. Danaos was considered the Phoenician. This is during Egypt's age of empire during the New Kingdom, when the Phoenicians were swarming out all over the Mediterranean and beyond. Secondly, Phoenician artifacts have been found across Europe. They brought their Egyptian religion with them, especially the worship of Isis. Phoenicia being part of the Egytian empire which stretched all the way to Turkey, they were even closer to Egyptian religion than the Romans and even the Greeks. This resulted in the cult of the Black Madonna in many places. Lastly, the Tathe Dé Dannan were given Connacht. There are Phoenician objects found in Connacht. MrSativa (talk) 14:52, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * As you know, our opinions can't be used in articles. The Phoenicians were not part of the Egyptian empire, nor did they share the same religion. As our article on them says, "The religious practices and beliefs of Phoenicia were cognate generally to their neighbours in Canaan" - see Ancient Canaanite religion, plus some Egyptian cults."All over Europe" is a bit of a stretch, but certainly along the Med and Iberia. I have no idea why anyone would think a stone from a medieval monastery is Phoenican, but your gnostic warrior cites this article which doesn't suggest it's Phoenician. Show me an archaeological source for Phoenicians in Ireland.  Doug Weller  talk 17:36, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * "The Phoenicians were not part of the Egyptian empire, nor did they share the same religion." That's your opinion. MrSativa (talk) 02:41, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

 * No, it's the opinion of virtually every academic writing on these subjects. If you feel strongly about this, have a go at adding this to Phoenicia and Ancient Egypt and see what others say. You are aware of WP:VERIFY and WP:RS yet you continue to ignore them.  Doug Weller  talk 09:25, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Well the article on Phoenicia mentions trade between it and Great Britain: "Strabo states that there was a highly lucrative Phoenician trade with Britain for tin via the Cassiterides whose location is unknown but may have been off the northwest coast of the Iberian Peninsula. Professor Timothy Champion, discussing Diodorus Siculus's comments on the tin trade, states that "Diodorus never actually says that the Phoenicians sailed to Cornwall. In fact, he says quite the opposite: the production of Cornish tin was in the hands of the natives of Cornwall, and its transport to the Mediterranean was organised by local merchants, by sea and then over land through France, well outside Phoenician control."

A trade network that included Ireland as well may not be implausible. But we need sources for it. Currently our article on Prehistoric Ireland only mentions evidence of contact with Roman Britain. Dimadick (talk) 14:38, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me the reason for including this point in the first place? It seems to be blindingly obvious that the two are not related, and it takes up room in an already extremely complex entry. Nilzy (talk) 12:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The Fhenicians are claimed by the ancient Irish to be one in the same as the Irish. The Irish go by the actual name Fheni (this was crushed by Victorian age), the "Phoenicians" are a ghost concept, assigned to "extinction" by bishops, the Celtic "coat" was then applied over the "Fheni primer". They're all false constructs, essentially. Don't let the construct of "deluge", that "planted vine" abroad get in the way of understanding it's not only that Irish claim roots in the Fhoeni, but the Fheni then trace back to Ireland. It's circular. There may not be "evidence" of a link to Ireland or Britain that is specifically Phoenician within narrow parameters, the further one goes away from "Phoenicia" toward Ireland the older the archaeological evidence gets (which contradicts the received wisdom). "Phoenician" sites near Cadiz are far older, I think, than those in the east Med.

 * Agreed - now why is Olympian Pantheon in ==see also== ?? ClemMcGann (talk) 09:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed that the connection between the Tuatha de Danaan and the "Greek" Danaans is of the most tenuous. See Mark Woodhuizen's book on the Sea Peoples, to whom the Denyen were a later addition. The Denyen were the "Greek" Danaans, as the Ekwesh/Ahiyyawa were the "Greek" Achaeans. 71.163.114.49 (talk) 16:01, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The "secret" of "Tuatha (de) Danu"
Many scholars try to "find" the roots of Tuatha (de) Danu through Hebraic occult nonsense about "Dan tribe", which was simply Hyperborean "Scynthian" (Slavic and also Irish eventually) goddess Dana or Danu...

The correct transliteration of this Tzarist / Goddesses / Deva was among old Slavic people from DON river (important) called "DANA" or "DANITSA" (Danica) goddess. And transliteration of the Irish Tuatha is slavic Detsa(children); where "t" was transliterated through d and vice versa and TH was transliterated into soft "Ts", almost "c". So "Deca ("children") of Dana or Danitsa(Danu). The city called "Vienna" or "Wien" still today carries its name - "DUNAJ" (Dunay) among SloVenian people. The transliteration of "Wien" (Vienna) derived from the people of "WENDS" or "VENETI" (king Samo, king of Wends or Venns).

So the "secret" behind this name "Danu" or Dana or Danica means "light"; "day". People think that Danica represented a slavic goddess of "Venus", but it represented a constellation; not a "star" (venus), but sisters (stars), daughters of Dazhbog(zodiac).

grammar problem?
" Hindu mythology has a goddess called Danu, who may be an Indo-European parallel."

"Who" is a relative pronoun which should refer to the nearest noun. That would be "Danu" the Hindu goddess. The Hindus are Indo-Aryans, not Indo-Europeans. If the Irish Danu is the parallel to the Hindu Danu, then instead of "who may be," use "to which the Irish Danu may be". 71.163.114.49 (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Recent quote attributed to Rawlinson
Before anyone goes to see if Rawlinson actually wrote that, he didn't. It is copied from "Genesis of the Grail Kings" by fringe authot Laurence Gardner. Dougweller (talk) 15:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Mountains of the Conmaiche in Connacht
This place is identified as Slieve Anierin. Nmclough (talk) 08:19, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Points with respect to the name.
Why is this article relying on an American for a translation of simple to understand Irish? Why is any citation, here, needed at all? One doesn't need a citation to establish the meaning of the English words "John's hat", or the Spanish equivalent of the aforementioned.

Dé is, as can be clearly seen, a capitalised, proper noun. It should be translated as such. Why is it not capitalised (Wikipedia follows normal rules of grammar etc.).

Dé is the possessive, genitive form of "Dia", in English, "God". That is to say it means "God's", and nothing else, most certainly not "gods" (with is neither singulsr nor genitive).

To imply Dé is the plural form of god is deceptive nonsense.

To imply Dé means "goddess" is also deceptive nonsense. Goddess would also be "dia" with the prefix "ban" for woman. It doesn't say bandia.

To then imply Dé means both plural "gods" and singular "goddess" simultaneously is beyond ridiculous.

Dé means "God's" and nothing other than this, in the past and present time.

"Tuath" means country or kingdom as well as the people of the country, a designation one in the same. This should be clearly explained in the initial translation. "Tuatha" may refer specifically to the "people" of the Tuath, in this context ("people" by the very nature of the word implies a plurality of human beings without need for the "s" affix. To imply it means "peoples" would imply "more than one race" and this, once again, is not what is communicated. It is another error.

Also, there are no prepositions such as [tribe] "of the" [goddess Danaan]. We can't just invent and insert non-existant prepositions (even if deceptive mistranslators have done, to fit an even greater mistranslation). They must be removed as false.

"Tuatha Dé" is "God's people", Tuatha Dé is "God's kingdom" or "God's country", where God's people dwell. Simples.

If arguing, with respect to the late scribal addition "Danaan", altered once Christianity was universally accepted across Europe, is part of the genitive (possessive) noun "God's..." then the English should be Danaan God's People.

To argue Tuatha Dé is "people of gods" or "tribe of gods" is pure nonsense, due to a deceptive withdrawal of the apostrophe. Should one wish the words to go in that order that is fine, as "people of God's." or "tribe of God's", but this not natural in English, where the genitive proper noun comes first giving 'God's people" or "God's tribe".

The deity refered to is the great God, the Lord Almighty, as was in beginning, now and ever shall be. People just buy into this garbled, pantheonic nonsense as they lack understanding of the structure...

 * Hello IP 149.254.235.27,

 * To begin with, I've moved this to the bottom, because this is the convention on Wikipedia: The newest conversation is always placed at the bottom of the page, as when the page is sufficiently filled the upper conversations are moved to an archive. Do not move it back up, please, if you do it will just be ignored.

 * Your points are not entirely wrong, and it is a bit bizarre that an American source was cited for an Irish translation. Standard policy is that a translation most ideally be provided by an external source, if not, then by a native speaker, if not, then by Google Translate. In this case, the reason an American source specifically was chosen is apparently because that is the first one that comes up in a Google search, and it hasn't been contested. If you can find an equally reliable source that contradicts this one, you're welcome to drop the URL here so people can discuss it. I agree that the rules sometimes result in odd decision being made, but usually they help more than they hinder.

 * Regarding your own etymology, you are completely correct. Tuatha means countryside, and Dé means God's, in the possessive case. This is entirely true in Modern Spoken Irish.

 * However, things are a little bit different with Old Irish. The preferred sources over the past century or so have translated the Old Irish Tuatha Dé Danann as The Tribe of Danu. It doesn't need to infer that Danu is a godess, and it certainly doesn't have a plural "gods", but this is what it has been interpreted as by some. The current word Tuatha (country) actually derives from the original Tuatha, which you may recognise as the term used to describe the clans of ancient Ireland. This reasoning goes hand-in-hand with why the Old Irish term for the clan chieftain, Taoiseach, is now used to designate the head of the country.

 * In a similar way, the Old English "hund" is the precursor to the Modern English "hound", however in Old English it actually refers to any breed of dog. As languages change over time, words come to mean different things. This is why third-party translations, especially of atypical languages, are favoured on Wikipedia articles.  Wasechun tashunka HOWLTRACK 17:15, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Ok. Very fair points. Thanks for explanation. I thought my paragraphs were deleted at first. It's only a quick opinion here, but to quote a phrase from the 'good book', some take "their refuge, the lie". The custodians who descend from the former authors in the "primordial tongue" allow it. I surmise there are good (and likely ethical) reasons to allow this, and to let the general public misapprehend the subject, even to the point of completely inaccurate translations of the very most simple, essential terms such as "God's". I don't really see why a non-native "Celticist" has to be prioritised over a simple dictionary with respect to such keywords and phrases. I do not believe the word "De" has evolved much at all over this long period referred to here. Most certainly it will not have "mutated" from meaning "God's" to "gods" or vice versa. I could find examples in the Irish throughout all periods in which these stories of TDD were recorded and De (with a fada) will remain the same. Would be interesting to establish where the error was first introduced into English translations (it may've been a simple error, the apostrophe being dropped from "God's" with the simple error then persisting. Ireland had to rewrite key elements of herself, we must be seen to have received "knowledge of the true one God" from the representative of the apostle Paul the Holy Father of the Roman Church.  So Patrick is seen to bring it all. "Here Patrick, take these books and pass them back to us pretending they're yours."

 * If you can find a reliable source stating that, then we can look at it together. It would have to be with reference to Old Irish, however, as Modern Irish is very different in many respects. As with any translation, there is the possibility of mistranslation, and there have been alternative translations proposed over the years (it has been suggested that the Tuatha Dé Danann may be anything from fallen angels to a lost tribe of Israel!), but this is the current academic consensus both in Ireland and abroad. Certainly look into it if you want!

 * I think the main point here is that the notion of God referred to in this article has it's roots in pre-Christian Ireland. They suggest Danu, but note that the name "Danu" itself is a reconstruction by linguists based on the Old Irish genitive case Danann. That's the only form that exists in primary sources, so we have no real myths for a god/goddess named Danu (most of what people think is original mythology surrounding Danu has been derived from other countries' mythologies), simply that there were a people who were the "Clan/Tribe" of someone/something named Danu. For that exact reason, Danu could just as easily referred to a King, place, etc. The "Dé" is the only thing referring to a god, and it just so happens that it has been decided that said god is more likely to refer to the "Danu" noun. We simply can't know it's complete meaning, everything is guesswork. Therefore, seeing as nothing can be definitively proven, preference has been given to the translation provided by scholars.  Wasechun tashunka HOWLTRACK 18:57, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Genealogy Chart
Can we have the genealogy chart fixed so it is readable? I am a genealogist and even I can't make sense of this chart. A row of vertical lines that go no where is of no use to anyone who wants to understand the mythology.

 * I've removed it, it's an editor's original research combining seveal sources. Doug Weller  talk 12:15, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Tuatha Dé Danann


text:
List of United States magazines with online archives

This is a list of magazines in the USA that have online archives. This is not to be confused with webzines which do not print a hardcopy edition and instead provide it online only, typically via the World Wide Web.

U.S. magazines with online archives

 * Biblical Archaeology Review (1975- )
 * The Caribbean Pioneer
 * The Christadelphian Tidings of the Kingdom of God
 * GEMC GEORGIA Magazine (formerly RURAL GEORGIA Magazine) (1945- )
 * (1990- )
 * Lookinside Magazine (1923- )
 * Tampa Bay Parenting Magazine (2008- )
 * Time (1923- ) (pay)

Cornell archive

 * Cornell magazine archive (free)
 * The American Missionary (1878 - 1901)
 * The American Whig Review (1845 - 1852)
 * The Atlantic Monthly (1857 - 1901)
 * The Bay State Monthly (1884 - 1886)
 * The Century (1881 - 1899)
 * The Continental Monthly (1862 - 1864)
 * The Galaxy (1866 - 1878)
 * Harper's New Monthly Magazine (1850 - 1899)
 * The International Monthly Magazine (1850 - 1852)
 * The Living Age (1844 - 1900)
 * Manufacturer and Builder (1869 - 1894)
 * The New England Magazine (1886 - 1900)
 * The New-England Magazine (1831 - 1835)
 * New Englander (1843 - 1892)
 * The North American Review (1815 - 1900)
 * The Old Guard (1863 - 1867)
 * Punchinello (1870)
 * Putnam's Monthly (1853 - 1870)
 * Scientific American (1846 - 1869)
 * Scribner's Magazine (1887 - 1896)
 * Scribner's Monthly (1870 - 1881)
 * The United States Democratic Review (1837 - 1859)


text:
Talk:SABRE (rocket engine)

Untitled
Ok, this piece seems to me to be difficult to write, it's a fairly complex engine, and the information probably isn't complete. But we do the best we can.

I've made some corrections to the piece which I believe are correct. They include:

a) the helium loop is gaseous, not liquid (see section 4.1 JBIS_v57_22-32.pdf)

b) the air isn't separated into nitrogen and oxygen anymore with Sabre, unlike LACE

c) the helium loop isn't pumped, on the contrary it does the pumping ("Brayton cycle"). Check out the diagram 4 and the discussion in section 4.1 in the above document

There's still some stuff I don't know for sure:

I'm still not clear whether SABRE actually liquifies the air- I've a feeling that it only cools and compresses it; but I haven't seen anything written in black and white either way. Liquifying it would probably be a bad idea, since it uses more hydrogen and doesn't actually improve the efficiency. I noticed that the experimental precooler only cools the air down to -80C; AFAIK it's not written in black and white anywhere whether that's the same temperature that they would employ on SABRE, but if so, then that's far too warm to liquify the air.

If anyone knows of a reference we can point to, I'd appreciate it.

Incidentally, it might be a good idea for someone to ask Bond and co. whether we could include their engine diagram and an external view of the engine here- a diagram or two would be very desirable.

-WolfKeeper

---

The only reference I can find on the liquifaction/cooling the air issue is section 4.1, where they talk about an air compressor after the precooler. Given that liquid air is incompressible; this implies that the output from the precooler is gaseous.

-WolfKeeper

---

Actually, there's another, rather clearer description of why SABRE does *not* liquify the air in JBIS_v56_108-117.pdf, page 115.

Given this, I'm going to change the article to remove reference to liquid air with SABRE.

-WolfKeeper.

Looking very good now
Thanks for the heads up WolfKeeper. I have read the articles in question and I think the article really reflects the actual system much better now.

I do find it interesting that dragging around "dead" engines for much of the flight profile still results in massively better performance overall. But I suppose that should not be expected, after all, we have reheat/afterburners.

Maury 22:21, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

just one comment -80°c may liquify air at high pressure, at Mach 5,and 60,000ft 20,000m the stagnation pressure should be about 31.7 bar stagnation temperature 1335 k (isentropic compresion), liquifyed air (any liquid) is easier to pump up to a high pressure (as they are incompresable), and high presures are important for cycle efichiencies. the problem with liquifying air however is that not all the gasses will condence at the same temperature, and much erosion can be expected if the liquid droplets are traveling at any speed in the heat exchanger. incidently the loss of entropy for such heat exchangers are probably horrific.

 * They're not going to liquify the air.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 22:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

 * To clarify, the reason for this is that to liquefy the air requires a much larger energy investment, which means a much higher fuel flow that can't actually be burned usefully. Simply cooling the air to very low temperature provides a large reduction in energy for compression, as well as size of compression equipment (due to denser air). Both of these together hugely reduce the engine weight, even with the precooler adding just over a tonne. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.205.21.4 (talk) 02:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

no sign of ramjet.
http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/sabre.html

the cycle show a conventional turbojet mode and a rocket mode. there is no direct air to chamber bypass which is what a ramjet is. rather air either enter the turbo or bypass the entire engine in the 3d model. another unusual point is that 'ramjet' was not mentioned once on the official site. therefore is the details on this article correct? no source appears to be given. Akinkhoo (talk) 02:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

 * The diagram as it says, is a simplified cycle. If you read the papers they do describe it- the problem is that the amount of hydrogen you need to boil off to cool the air down is too much to burn in the main engine, and they use a ramjet for that.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 03:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Description [inaccuracies]
1) I think that the next statement in the present version of this article is wrong: 'SABRE uses two "pure" rocket engines surrounded by a ring of smaller engines similar to ramjets'.

If you look here: http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/sabre.html (look at the diagram of the engine)

and here: http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/downloads/JBIS_v57_22-32.pdf (read last paragraph in page 29)

it is clear that their design (Reaction Engines Limited's) is not the merge of two different kind of engines, rockets and jets, there is only one, the rocket, but capable of burning either compressed_air+LH2, or LOX+LH2.

In fact they claim that THAT is one of its main advantages, due to the reduction in weight from not having two whole systems, one for the airbreathing mode and another for the rocket mode. The only two main components that dont "double" (don't work in rocket mode) are the precooler and the air turbocompressor.

2) Another statement that I think is wrong, under 'The Engines', it's read: "After being launched and brought to speed by a short burst of the rockets, the jets are started".

In the last link I provided they say that this engine (unlike ramjets) is capable of giving static thrust, that means that it works and give push even at cero speed, so there is no need to use the rocket for takeoff (and of course there are no "jets").

3) And finally, under 'Performance' is this: "The losses from carrying around a number of engines that will be turned off for some portion of the flight would appear to be heavy...".

Again, there are not multiple whole engines in the Sabre design, just one kind with a few added components that only work in the airbreathing mode.

Since I'm not a registered user in this version of the WP I'm not going to make the changes right away, but let you check them up and decide.

Regards. CharlieM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.122.58 (talk) 01:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

 * If you look at:

 * Around the central engine there's all these conical shapes with holes in them. I'm pretty sure that they're flameholders. If you trace the airflow path it comes in around the outside of the heat exchanger after passing through the shock cone.

 * I'm pretty sure that they're the ramjets- they're used to burn off the excess fuel produced by the hot air boiling the hydrogen off in the heat exchanger. This also matches what is described in Reaction engines literature. These ramjets aren't on the simplified schematic though.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 02:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

 * You might be right, although it's difficult to be sure since the available info is so scarce. What I make of it (see "4.3 SABRE Installation" in pages 31 and 32) is that at low machs the Sabre engine swallows too much air, and that the excess is let to scape through "an internal bypass system" (sic), but first it is mixed with hidrogen and burned. They call it a "bypass burner system" (sic) not a ramjet, and explain that its function is to heat the air so its exhaust velocity is enough to not have a drag effect (so I understand it's not to produce thrust, I suppose the main engine is more efficient at that). Maybe it also doubles as the system to get rid of the excess hidrogen, but that is unclear.

 * I think the 'bypass burner system' certainly constitutes a ring of ramjets by most people's standards. It gets its compressed air direct from the inlet shock, and it doesn't even go through the heat exchanger, and each one has its own de laval nozzle.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 21:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

 * About the rocket assisted takeoff, according first paragraph on page 29 they contemplated it on the first versions of the Skylon, but later on drop it.

 * CharlieM.

Was recently discussing this engine with others and noted there was a lot of confusion over how it fundamentally worked. Upon doing some research I found that there were some considerable misunderstandings about the nature of this engine as presented, or at least concepts that could have been explained more thoroughly to avoid confusion. For example little disambiguation between this and so called “LACE” engines. Too much to detail here and discuss so I’ve gone ahead and edited it. The article also needed many more references and inline citations and I hope the reasons for the changes I’ve made are made clear with the references added. If there is consensus that the article now has enough citations can this tag be removed? Until then I’ve added a major revision tag to see what people think about the article.

On another note how appropriate is it that this engine be tagged under the Aviation WikiProject alone? The SABRE engine is designed specifically as a type of rocket engine for use on a single-stage-to-orbit launch vehicle, Skylon (or rather more accurately Skylon is built around the engine!). Skylon like other SSTO’s such as Venturestar/X-33 may look or have flight-profiles similar to aircraft but ultimately they are rocket-based launch vehicles that engage in some degree of spaceflight. Even sub-orbital vehicles like Spaceshipone come under both the Rocketry and Spaceflight WikiProjects as well which I think are at least if not more appropriate for the SABRE engine than the Aviation WikiProject. Anyone else agree? Frodz (talk) 15:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Souped Up Classic?
Pratt & Whitney

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_J58 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.50.73.119 (talk) 18:10, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

 * That is a turboramjet, which is different to this this engine. ChiZeroOne (talk) 18:16, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

 * It's not ridiculous, the engine that lead to the J58 being chosen was originally going to be a hydrogen jet engine, and the hydrogen jet engine research may have indirectly lead to SABRE (or not, you'd have to check with Alan Bond to find out where they got the idea from, but there's a plausible connection there via LACE or otherwise.) So they could be cousins.Rememberway (talk) 20:23, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

 * No, they couldn't. Not anymore than SABRE is a "cousin" of a prop engine....

 * Either way this is unbacked speculation and so isn't relevant to the article. ChiZeroOne (talk) 20:34, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Possible cons?

 * ) What are the failure scenarios for the pre-cooler? How gracefully/gracelessly will the engine fail?

 * ) Is there a critical point in the mode switch where the rocket mode (and the various cycles that are meant to sustain propellant transport within the system) might not "bite"? Again, what is the failure scenario?

 * )Dry Ice formation, the air has carbon dioxide in it and with the proposed temperature in the precooler, it seems like dry ice would form, causing issues with the compressor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by B787 300 (talk • contribs) 04:04, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I would be happy to see an aeronautical engineer comment on this, even though public sources on how this engine would go arse-up are probably non-existent... (don't get me wrong, I wish this engine to succeed.)88.110.112.185 (talk) 13:58, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Let's have some fact checking
As I understand it, the SABRE does not liquefy the air. It uses either air that has been cooled to -150°C or it's own internal LOX. The included quote is outdated and inaccurate on multiple points. It should be removed and just say that the tests have been completed.

The Sabre engine "relies on a heat exchanger capable of cooling incoming air to −140 °C (−220 °F), to provide liquid oxygen (LOX) for mixing with hydrogen to provide jet thrust during atmospheric flight before switching to tanked LOX when in space." The autumn 2011 test program will validate that the critical heat exchanger technology can perform as needed for the engine to obtain adequate oxygen from the atmosphere to support the low-altitude, high-performance operation.[15] 98.203.242.147 (talk) 10:50, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Nydoc

 * The quote originates from the (14) reference, written by Dan Thisdell. A search of his aeospace technical credentials shows that he has none, and is focussed on the business/management side of things. Clearly he didn't understand what he was reading. No practical engine in the world would try to liquify air and then extract the O2 for LOX and dump the remaining 4/5ths N2. The quote, and even the entire reference should be removed from the article and footnotes. It's not enough to have approved publications for reference, their authors should also have relevant experience and expertise in the field. JohndanR (talk) 16:12, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Assertion checking and scientific method
Much of this and associated articles seem to be based upon recycling of REL marketing releases and also media articles written by people with no or dubious specific expertise or indeed level of scepticism. Partisan claims of functional capability are presented as fact although they have yet to be established as fact by open scientific peer review or field testing by impartial experts. This may perhaps in part be unavoidable given the proprietary nature of SABRE technology but extraordinary claims require a higher level of proof other than simply accepting company claims to have developed new anti frosting technology which they cannot disclose to the public because it is "secret". It seems unlikely that the difficult, even intractable, problem of avoiding frosting whilst using cryogenic cooling has somehow been solved, solved by a mysterious secret apparatus or process about which they cannot tell us the details for some reason or another, a mysterious secret apparatus or process the details of which cannot even be revealed to the protections of the patent system for fear of something or other. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and it seems at this stage of not relying upon experts or peer-reviewed science but rather upon dubious media and corporate sources and vague implications of ESA review that this level of proof has not been acquired and that the skylon sabre project may be an upmarket technology financing scam complete with semi-working prototypes. Now it may be possible or even probable that REL has developed a technology or process solution to frosting that they are keeping secret for a legitimate reason such as military secrecy but at this current stage of proof such claims by commercial interests should be treated as the claims that they are rather than as fact and this should be reflected in the article. Theo Pardilla (talk) 08:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The frost issue solving does require independent confirmation - a press release from the company website is not enough. So I just added that. However, slander that the projects could be "financing scam" has no place on Wikipedia talk pages, given the amount of referencable government space agency oversight, readily available BEFORE Pardilla made that comment.

On a different note, a technical lecture by Alan Bond reveals this about Skylon : TGCP (talk) 20:43, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * helium at 1180 Kelvin max temperature - 33min
 * precooler tubes 0.88mm bore diameter, tube wall thickness 30 microns heat exchanger made of Inconel 718 - 38min
 * local crossflow, overall counterflow in heat exchanger

 * The way he phrased it is not slander and in fact any intelligent person with a good grounding in aerospace technology will have had similar misgivings.89.168.178.139 (talk) 15:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but he has no proof that it is a financing scam and as such does count as slander. The idea is to report facts, it is not a fact that it is a scam and it is not a fact that they have solved the frosting. 109.153.102.95 (talk) 15:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * He said "it may be a scam" - how is that slander? I think that the engineering guys involved in SABR genuinely want to pull it off, but I'm not so sure about their CFO...137.205.183.114 (talk) 10:58, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It is an indirect fact that frosting has not been solved in flight, as tests were done on ground. However it is a fact, and has been for several days before 5 December, that ESA managed and approved the precooler test results. However again, this article does rely heavily on primary sources and steps should be taken to solidify it - although this has been discussed before. TGCP (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Interview with ESA's Mark Ford - in April, before test; could show intentions of test. May or may not be relevant for refs. TGCP (talk) 23:54, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I would note that the precooling frost issue has been solved in a confirmable manner previously, by methanol injection into the airflow prior to the precooler, which is a known antifreeze agent. This was used on Japan's ATREX precooled turbojet. It is unlikely SABRE uses this mechanism specifically, but similar chemical methods may be employed, perhaps as simple as an antifreeze coating layed onto the inconel tubing. The fact that "the problem has not been solved" doesn't mean we have no idea how to solve it - just that no-one has yet made a practical implementation. We also know that with how much this project will cost, it is highly unlikely the ESA would be giving their approval if they had not seen the antifreeze mechanism explained and proven. 31.205.21.4 (talk) 02:53, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Whilst it is helpful to be aware of these existing technical methods I am yet to be convinced. Speculating on the methods, professionalism, expertise, integrity, processes, staff, project management, auditing or other internal processes within the ESA generally, much less the single point of 'likelihood' about this specific project is simply an appeal to authority. As we know almost nothing about the ESA's specific detailed relation to this project such speculations are just that, speculations at best or wishful thinking.Theo Pardilla (talk) 14:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * REL do intend to use methanol, as did Atrex. This list of patents may be relevant to show intentions, but is not a source for feasibility. TGCP (talk) 21:09, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Air pressure drops ... more air passed into compressor
As the craft ascends and the outside air pressure drops, more and more air is passed into the compressor as the effectiveness of the ram compression drops.

Does that sentence make any sense?WithGLEE (talk) 21:43, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Why banana shape?
Is there anything in the sources which explains why it is banana shaped Petecarney (talk) 06:40, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

 * something like this "the vehicle flies at 7 degrees angle of attack to create lift, so the intake is pointed down so it points directly into the air stream, and the nozzle needs to angle into the center of mass since it's mounted below the center of mass, and that also is at 7 degrees, the resulting shape looks like a banana, but it's for sound reasons." from a comment from Skyhawk551 on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G-HPHNrrLQ  Matt Whyndham (talk) 10:04, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

SABRE 3 to SABRE 4
It seems to me the article appears to have been written mostly around the SABRE 3 concept. More details are becoming available about the SABRE 4, some of which may already have made their way into the article. Some of the information understood about SABRE 3 (e.g. the common combustion chamber) is not believed to be correct for SABRE 4. How should we manage the transition? 80.90.193.161 (talk) 09:57, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Put in sub-headings for SABRE 3 and SABRE 4. Since you know the difference between the two, you're best placed to make the changes - so get too it! FOARP (talk) 10:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

EU-approved funding
I cannot find any information as to whether the £50 million funding from the UK government approved by the EU commission was in addition to the £60 million already announced or was the actual sum finally committed by the UK government. Anyone have anything on this? In the one case this means that the UK government will have committed £110 million to this project, in the other it will have committed only £50 million. FOARP (talk) 10:32, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Comparisons to ramjet/scramjet engines
I believe it somewhat misleading to compare the sabre engine to ramjet and scramjet engines as the latter are only suitable for atmospheric flight.

Parts of the article seem to be worded more like an advert or promotional for the sabre engine rather than statements of fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.199.163.151 (talk) 20:23, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

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One of the greatest technology breakthroughs?
Here we have a precooler that "cools air from 1000 degrees to -150 in fraction of a second."

Now, I have an air conditioner that struggles to cool a room full of air from 90°F to 80°F in one hour -- and consumes a lot of energy while doing so.

The SABRE somehow does much more cooling, much faster, on a much larger quantity of air.

Is it not therefore notable for being one of the greatest technology breakthroughs of all time? Shouldn't the article point that out? 199.46.196.231 (talk) 20:59, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

 * Agree you're welcome to edit the article to reflect this.Quantanew (talk) 16:14, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

 * No, not unless there are reliable sources that actually make that claim. - BilCat (talk) 16:21, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * No. I noticed that before but did not think of it as "the greatest technology breakthroughs of all time".  I can't see how to mention that without a promotional tone or without a reliable third-party source that relates this to the expected thrust. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 16:24, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

 * A lot of time and energy are invested in liquefying and further chilling hydrogen before it is is stored in the tanks for the engine. This "stored cold" is used to cool the air. The breakthrough is the speed with which the heat exchanger is capable of moving the heat from the air to the helium (which is then cooled by the hydrogen), and that it can do so without icing up 82.22.197.128 (talk) 03:16, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

This could still be properly remarked without sounding promotional, the quality of the advancedment is clear, there is nothing like it elsewhere. In regard of sources the currently available sources explain the works perfectly. Quantanew (talk) 16:45, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

 * We still need a reliable source, preferably several high-quality sources, that actually claim it's one of the greatest technology breakthroughs, not just that "explain the works". - BilCat (talk) 17:07, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

 * The article already states "SABRE dramatically cools the air from 1000 °C down to −150 °C [...]." Yes, the subsystem is highly efficient and secret/patented, but not even the manufacturer claims that their cooler is the 'greatest technology breakthrough'.  That is YOUR perception and POV.  All articles should remain free of such sensational claims. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:21, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

 * Thanks Quantanew, that's what I was getting at. Without sounding "promotional," there ought to be a way to convey how remarkable this technology is.  Although it's clear to me that this is "one of the greatest technology breakthroughs,"  I'm not advocating use of that particular phrase.  But merely using the word "dramatic" does not adequately convey what has been achieved.  - The IP formerly known as 199.46.196.231 199.46.249.145 (talk) 00:07, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

 * We may talk about how "remarkable" this technology is when/if it gets to fly as described. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 00:21, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

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ESA, has invested €10 million so far and performs technical oversight role on behalf of UKSA
Thanks for your improvements, user:Quantanew this article is in need of maintenance. My objection to this is mostly due to the oversight role played by ESA being longer running than this individual item, and more complex. In addition, The funding issue is more complex. finally WP:OSE isn't a defence. Stgpcm (talk) 08:44, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Nothing of what you said supports the removal of funding levels or the oversight role. Your objection is personal and not based on facts. Please provide facts and sources for the removal of information. Your WP:OSE comparison is lacking you are not the judge to determine what's valid or not. Up to date funding levels is relevant to the development. This and other funding sources are the reason development is happening, this doesn't happen for free. I hope we can keep this information and reach an amicable conclusion.Quantanew (talk) 01:14, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The over-simplification on oversight makes it misleading. The information doesn't belong where you have put it. I'd be very pleased if you could do a proper write-up on the long-running role ESA has played in the Reaction Engines story (although that should probably go in the Reaction Engines Page) - declaring no impediments gave the company greater credibility; LAPCAT paying for helium turbine investigations; S-ELSO paying for audited development, infrastructure, and operation costs; et cetera.
 * Funding is very important, the lack of it has delayed progress enormously.
 * The 10 million Euros you are trying to add has already been includedin "In June 2013 the United Kingdom government announced further support for the development of a full-scale prototype of the SABRE engine,[30] providing £60M of funding between 2014-2016[31][32] with the ESA providing an additional £7M.[33] The total cost of developing a test rig is estimated at £200M" - your entry could cause people to think this is separate funding.
 * Most of the funding information is on the Skylon (spacecraft) page (it *should* be on the Reaction Engines Limited page, and referenced both there and here, otherwise the information becomes disjointed and out-of-sync, leading to lower quality information). However, even if you argue that this piece funding information should be on this page, it shouldn't be scattered throughout the article, and shouldn't be in a "development" section.
 * The over-simplified 10 million Euros investment statement you provided, suggests Reaction Engines have been given 10 million Euros by ESA from its own funds, rather than ESA providing 10 million Euros worth of support to REL including overseeing the demonstrator engine test, that support being funded by the UK government.
 * I'm as much an arbiter of what shouldn't be in the article as you are of what should be in it. This whole page is a relatively low quality entry, with lots of mess from organic growth and needs a lot of cleaning up, but that doesn't mean it's OK to add misleading information.

Stgpcm (talk) 16:57, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Use common sense please.
> The experimental device achieved heat exchange of almost 1 GW/m3

That would mean the Skylon Sabre pre-cooler is able to extinguish e.g. a nuclear submarine or icebreaker's fission power reactor without the use of control rods, as the active zone of such a reactor is smaller than 1m3 in volume and its max. thermal power output less than or equal to 1000MW. Considering that chemical (electron sphere based) reactions, including heat transfer are known to be magnitudes weaker than atomic nucleus based reactions, such a feat seems impossible per basic laws of physics! Extraordinary claims shall require extraordinary evidence and in such cases Wikipedia needs to make doubly sure about what it publishes. 94.21.160.231 (talk) 12:51, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 * This statement is not cited, however it appears to come from one of Mark Hempsell's papers (Progress on Skylon and SABRE). Funnily enough while it states a rate close to 1 GW/m3, the actual paper it references mentions that the heat sink test was closer to a power transfer of 2 GW/m3 (An Experimental Precooler for Airbreathing Rocket Engines). ChiZeroOne (talk) 16:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 18 June 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Oops. I made an incorrect conclusion based on faulty page view stats. Schierbecker (talk) 02:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

SABRE (rocket engine) → SABRE – Primary topic as indicated by |SABRE page views. Schierbecker (talk) 04:04, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: Page views do not show any of the three topics as primary. — BarrelProof (talk) 20:56, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
 * User:BarrelProof The rocket engine gets 90 times as many views as the computer program, which is only a partial title match. I've seen requested moves pass when the primary topic has only twice as many page views as the other topics. What would it take for you to support? Schierbecker (talk) 02:29, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Are you seeing what |SABRE_(rocket_engine)|Sabre_Corporation I'm seeing? — BarrelProof (talk) 14:36, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

 * Oppose not called Ess Ay Bee Er Eee. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:11, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * That's Ess Ay Bee Arr Eee, yee landlubber! — BarrelProof (talk) 23:14, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Comment: all the entries at already existed at Sabre (disambiguation), so I just redirected the former to the latter per WP:DABCOMBINE. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 00:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:SABRE (rocket engine)


text: User talk:69.159.202.162

title: User talk:69.159.202.162


text:
Concrete jungle

A Concrete jungle usually refers to urban areas with very little nature or scenery.

Concrete jungle may also refer to:

Albums

 * Concrete Jungle (David "Fathead" Newman album), 1977
 * Concrete Jungle (Dive album), or the title song, 1993
 * Concrete Jungle (Nneka album), 2010
 * Concrete Jungle (Scorcher album), 2009
 * Concrete Jungle (Sway & King Tech album), or the title song, 1990
 * Concrete Jungle Vol. 1, or the title song, by South Central Cartel, 1999

Songs

 * "Concrete Jungle", by Bad Omens from The Death of Peace of Mind, 2022
 * "Concrete Jungle", by Black Label Society from Shot to Hell, 2006
 * "Concrete Jungle", by Bob Marley and The Wailers from Catch a Fire, 1973
 * "Concrete Jungle", by Big Youth from Screaming Target, 1973
 * "Concrete Jungle", by The Specials from The Specials, 1979
 * "In the Jungle (Concrete Jungle)", by The Motels from the soundtrack of the film Teachers, 1984
 * "Concrete Jungle", a 2016 single by Au/Ra

Other media

 * The Concrete Jungle (1960 film) or The Criminal, a British film directed by Joseph Losey
 * The Concrete Jungle (film), a 1982 American women-in-prison film
 * The Concrete Jungle (novella), a 2004 short novel by Charlie Stross, collected in The Atrocity Archives
 * Concrete Jungle (supplement), a 1985 supplement for the role-playing game Marvel Super Heroes
 * Concrete Jungle (video game), a 2015 strategy game
 * Concrete Jungle: The Legend of the Black Lion, a 1998 comic book by Christopher Priest

title: Concrete jungle


text:
Concrete Roman

Concrete Roman is a slab serif typeface designed by Donald Knuth using his METAFONT program. It was intended to accompany the Euler mathematical font which it partners in Knuth's book Concrete Mathematics. It has a darker appearance than its more famous sibling, Computer Modern. Some favour it for use on the computer screen because of this, as the thinner strokes of Computer Modern can make it hard to read at low resolutions.

title: Concrete Roman


text: Category:High schools in Arizona

title: Category:High schools in Arizona


text:
Monica Frassoni

Monica Frassoni (born 10 September 1963) is an Italian politician who served as a Member of the European Parliament from 1999 to 2009 and as co-chair of the European Green Party from 2009 to 2019. In 2018, she was elected at the local Council of Ixelles in the Brussels Region, representing the Ecolo party.

In 2010, Frassoni co-founded and leads the European Alliance to Save Energy a multi-stakeholder, business-led organisation which aims to promote and advocate energy savings and a new energy model. She is also a member of the steering committee of the Coalition of Energy Savings. Since 2013, Frassoni has been president of the Management Board of the European Centre for Electoral Support (ECES), one of the most important organisation worldwide to implement electoral and democracy assistance projects mainly funded by the European Union and its Member States.

Frassoni is a member of the board of trustees of "Friends of Europe" a leading think tank that works to promote a more inclusive, sustainable and forward-looking Europe. She is also a board member of the Foundation ceci n'est pas une crise, created in 2013 in Belgium to respond to the challenges of cultural and identity populism.

Early life and education
Frassoni is a Political Science graduate from the University of Florence Cesare Alfieri.

Early career
From 1983, Frassoni became actively involved in the European Federalist Movement. In 1987, she moved to Brussels, having been elected as Secretary General of the European organisation of Young European Federalists (“JEF Europe”). She was appointed president of the European Co-Coordinating Bureau of Youth NGOs, a position she held from 1991 to 1993.

In 1990, Frassoni started working for the Greens/EFA Group in the European Parliament in charge of constitutional matters, rule of law, procedures and immunities. In that capacity, she worked closely with Adelaide Aglietta, Alexander Langer and Paul Lannoye and was heavily involved in the implementation of the European Parliament's new legislative competences, subsequent to the institutional reforms culminating in the Treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice.

Member of the European Parliament, 1999–2009
In 1999, Frassoni was elected as a member of the European Parliament for her first mandate with Ecolo, becoming the first non-Belgian politician to be elected in a Belgian political party and the first Italian national to be elected abroad. During her first legislation, she was active in constitutional affairs and human rights issues, closely following the negotiations for enlarging the EU to include Cyprus and for reform of the EU. She also became involved in several specific environmental issues with a clear European dimension in terms of EU law, such as protection of the Ebro River in Spain, high-speed infrastructures like the Lyon-Turin tunnel, waste in Naples, etc.

From 2002 to 2009, Frassoni served as co-chair (alongside Daniel Cohn-Bendit) of the Green/EFA group which by then had grown into the fourth largest group in the European Parliament in terms of number of MEPs.

In June 2004, Frassoni was re-elected for a second term, this time with the Italian Federation of the Greens. During the 2004–2019 legislative period, she was a member of the Committee on Legal Affairs and a substitute member of both the Committee on Constitutional Affairs and the Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety. For three years, she was also rapporteur on the yearly report of the European Parliament on the implementation of the EU law, thus following closely the review of infringement procedures carried out by the European Commission. She was also a member of the European Parliament negotiating team in the working group on the reform of the Parliament, led by Dagmar Roth-Behrendt, and on the Interinstitutional Agreement on Better Law-making.

In addition to her committee assignments, Frassoni was part of the delegations for relations with Mercosur, Iran, and the Parliamentary Assembly of the Mediterranean.

In her capacity as parliamentarian, Frassoni was appointed by European Commissioner on External Relations and European Neighbourhood Policy, Benita Ferrero-Waldner, as chief of the European Union Election observation missions to the 2006 Bolivian Constitutional Assembly election and to the 2006 Venezuelan presidential election.

In 2007, Frassoni was her group's candidate for the presidency of the European Parliament, standing against Hans-Gert Pöttering. She secured about three times the number of voters of her own group.

From 2003, Frassoni was a member of the executive and later Vice-Chair of the Parliamentary Network on the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.

Co-Chair of the European Green Party, 2009–2019
In 2009, following the end of her second mandate in the European Parliament, Frassoni was elected a co-chair of the European Green Party, being re-elected in 2012 and 2015. She concluded her mandate in November 2019.

In 2013, she was heavily involved in the organisation of the first pan-European Green Primary campaign for the nomination of the Green candidate for the position of President of the European Commission. This campaign was an innovative pilot project involving national Green parties which aimed at bringing the discussion on who leads the EU closer to the citizens and at "Europeanising" the elections for the European Parliament in 2014.

In 2010, Frassoni co-funded and was appointed President of the European Alliance to Save Energy, a multistakeholder, business-led advocacy organisation aiming at promoting strong and ambitious EU-wide regulation on energy and at thus strengthening policies for the decarbonisation of EU-economy.

In 2011, she joined the board of the European Centre for Electoral Support, and in 2013, became president of the board, replacing the late ex-president and founder Abbot Apollinaire Malou Malou. ECES is a not-for-profit private foundation, headquartered in Brussels, which aims at promoting sustainable democratic development through the provision of advisory services and operational support to electoral stakeholders throughout the electoral cycle. From 2012 to the present day, ECES has signed 71 contracts in 39 countries, mainly in Africa and mostly with the European Commission and Member States.

In 2018 and 2019, she was appointed Special Ambassador of the EU Sustainable Energy Week.

Central to her current political work is the goad of a "Federal Union", to be supported by a radical reorientation of EU policies and investment priorities towards a real "Green New Deal", the elimination of the powers to veto for each EU Member State; a more robust role for the European Parliament, to be elected partly through transnational electoral list, and a more substantial EU budget. A deeply reformed EU can have the right dimensions and capacity to face today's global challenges, in particular the fight against climate change, inequality, intolerance and the progressive weakening of democracy and freedoms in the EU. Her work in the energy and electoral assistance areas are closely linked to this idea of promoting and strengthening European democracy.

Career in local politics
In the 2018 Belgian local elections, Frassoni was voted local councilor for the Ecolo-Groen list in Ixelles (Brussels), under the mayorship of Christos Doulkeridis (Ecolo).

Other activities
Frassoni is a regular speaker and lecturer in academic fora and public events, focusing on sustainable energy and energy savings, green transformation of the global economy and society to fight exclusion and climate change, democracy and participation of civil society, notably women and youth, in decision-making at all levels.

In 2018 she delivered a series of lectures on EU institutions and environmental law at Deusto University, Bilbao, Spain.

In 2019 she delivered a special Course on “Lobbies and groups of interest in the EU” at the Sant’Anna School of Advanced Studies, Pisa, Italy.

Articles and publications
In 2010, she contributed to the book "Europa 2.0 Prospettive ed evoluzioni del sogno europeo", edited by Nicola Vallinoto and Simone Vannuccini, with a chapter on conditions for the relaunch of Europe's constitutional process.

In 2012, she contributed to the book "Un'altra donna è possibile. Voci fuori dal coro nell'Italia del bunga bunga", edited by Paola Castiglia.

In 2014, she contributed to the book "Un'altra Europa. Sostenibile, democratica, paritaria, solidale", edited by Silvia Zamboni, with a chapter on the challenges of climate change and energy policy.

In 2016, she contributed to the book "Accountability, Transparency and Democracy in the Functioning of Bretton Woods Institutions", edited by Prof. Elena Sciso, with the chapter "Two concrete experiences".

In 2017, she contributed to the book " Mecanismos de participación ciudadana, una experiencia global" edited by Lic. Gema Morales Martinez and Gerardo Romeo Altamirano, with a chapter on the experiences of direct democracy in Italy and the EU.

In 2018, she contributed to the book "Europee: dieci donne che fanno l'Europa" published by Textus Edizioni, of which she directs the series "Le vie da percorrere".

In 2019, she contributed to Legambiente's annual report "Un Green New Deal per l'Europa: Le idee e le sfide per rilanciare il progetto europeo", edited by Edoardo Zanchini and Mauro Albrizio, with a chapter on changing the EU to start a Green transformation.

Monica is actively involved in projects and events and writes publications on possible reforms on the European Union, focusing on the quality of democracy and the Green transformation of the economy. She contributes opinion pieces to discussions on EU affairs, energy and industrial policy, migration and Italian politics. She writes a blog for Il Fatto Quotidiano. and The Huffington Post and regularly publishes on EURACTIV and on the Green European Journal.

Recognition
In 2010, Frassoni was nominated by the Foreign Policy magazine as one of the Top 100 Global Thinkers list, along with Marina Silva, Cécile Duflot and Renate Künast, for "taking Green mainstream". In 2016, she was included by EURACTIV among the 40 policy experts with influence in EU energy efficiency policy.

title: Monica Frassoni


text:
Sepp Kusstatscher

Sepp Kusstatscher (born 17 March 1947 in Villanders) is an Italian politician and former Member of the European Parliament for North-East with the Federation of the Greens, part of the European Greens and sat on the European Parliament's Committee on Employment and Social Affairs. Furthermore, he is speaker of the Green Party of South Tyrol.

He was a substitute for the Committee on Transport and Tourism, a member of the Delegation to the EU-Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia Joint Parliamentary Committee and a substitute for the Delegation to the ACP-EU Joint Parliamentary Assembly.

Education

 * 1974: Master of Theology
 * 1977: Teaching certificate (vocational schools)
 * 1974–1979: Teacher at various schools
 * 1979–1986: Director of the Brixen vocational school for trade, commerce and industry
 * 1986–2001: Hotel and catering section
 * 2001–2003: Training officer for vocational teachers in the province of South Tyrol

Political career

 * 1973–1974: Chairman of the South Tyrol Students' Union
 * 1974–1985: Mayor of Villanders
 * 1983–1988: Chairman of the Lower Eisack Valley Water Treatment Association
 * 1984–2004: Chairman of the Villanders Education Committee
 * 1988–1993: Member (SVP), Provincial Council of South Tyrol and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol Regional Council, Chairman of the First Legislative Commission
 * 1989–1994: Chairman of the social affairs committees, South Tyrolean People's Party (SVP)
 * 2003–2004: Member Green Party of South Tyrol, Provincial Council of South Tyrol and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol Regional Council
 * 2004–2009 Member of the European Parliament
 * 2009– Chairman of the Green Party of South Tyrol

title: Sepp Kusstatscher