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Talk:Ring finger

Independence of movement
This article could probably incorporate information about the ring finger's lack of ability to move independently. Why is that, anyway? - Vague | Rant 01:57, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * I was just gonna write that. Someone please look that up. Redwolf24 10:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Not exactly sure what you mean by lack of ability to move indepenently? I move my ring finger without other fingers moving with ease. I'm not double jointed. --76.233.10.113 (talk) 20:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Place your hand on a table with fingers (except for the thumb) curved such that each finger tip and the side of thumb is touching the table. Now lift each finger in turn as high (far from the table) as possible. If you're normal, your index finger will move the greatest distance and your ring finger the least distance. TheScotch (talk) 08:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Etymology
I have added the information from László A. Magyar's thesis. I'm afraid some of the finger names might be wrong, because I haven't checked them by myself except English, Japanese, Mandarin, and Latin. Please correct them if necessary. - TAKASUGI Shinji 06:33, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)

Picture
There should probably be a picture of a hand, to show which one is the ring finger. Thanks! Scope2776 21:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

--The picture that is there is not very helpful - the thumb almost looks like a finger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lxowle (talk • contribs) 01:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Other section
As for it doesn't state its sources, for the second one, why don't you look at your bloody hand?
 * I did. Guess what? I can do it! I'm a medical miracle!82.7.106.54 02:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

ring finger in hebrew
the hebrew word for ring finger is listed here as kmitzah with languages that call it a "ring finger". but kmitzah comes from a service the preists would do in the temple in which they would grab flour from an offering of flour. i seriously doubt any relation to rings. Messengeroftruth (talk) 01:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Doubtful statement about Germany
1. ARZTFINGER: I'm an educated German and I have never ever heard that word. It either doesn't exist at all or is COMPLETELY unusual. I have deleted it. The common German word is "Ringfinger" (ring finger) as mentioned in the related section.´

2. WEDDING RING WORN ON THE RIGHT HAND: It's not true that Germans wear weddings rings exclusively on the right hand. Actually - however not knowing any statistics - I am sure that indeed the left hand is predominent. I thus deleted Germany in the list of "right hand countries".

3. WEDDING RING WORN ON THE RIGHT HAND: Having lived in Germany for well over 20 years I can attest to the fact that the majority of Germans wear their wedding rings on the right hand while their engagement rings are worn on the left. A glance at the German forums on the subject backs this up. As a side note, when I married my (German) husband and decided to wear my ring on the left hand, everyone including my mother-in-law found my decision curious.78.52.225.122 (talk) 18:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I suppose 3 was an answer to 2? If so - there may be a reason for the disparity. According to this site Dutch Orotestants switch from left to right after marriage, Dutch Roman Catholics do the opposite. In traditionally Roman Catholic Flanders the situation is a bit more complicated: Protestants and Orthodox prefer the wedding ring on the right hand, while Roman Catholics differ according to bishopric: West and East Flanders prefer the left hand, Brabant and Antwerp prefer the right hand. As Germany too has a religious mix (with Protestants dominating in the North, and Bavaria until recently almost exclusively Roman Catholic) I would not be surprised if religion played a part there. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 16:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, found enough on the Internet to completely contradict what the author of 2) said. Only the French wikipedia seems to think that German Roman Catholics put it on the left hand. Probably confusion with the Netherlands. Oh, and be careful when you go to the French article. The reference is to an article which tries to install spyware. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 17:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Wedding Ring Chapter
There is a problem with this chapter - it is duplicated at Wedding Ring. Since the chapter there also suffers from a lack of references, I suggest moving the entire chapter there, with a link from here. I do not know whether that constitutes a merge.--Paul Pieniezny (talk) 17:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Left hand vs. right hand
In Norway the wedding ring is usually worn on the right hand's ring finger. Norway is not an Orthodox Christian country, so someone might elaborate which countries that use left/right, and why...? --84.202.16.86 (talk) 14:23, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Just a comment, in Catalonia, though legally part of Spain, it is customary to wear the ring on the left hand. Amb pretty sure the same is true for Valencia too. Maybe this should be included in the article as Spain (most parts) or something like that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.21.180.108 (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

"Scientists at the University of California, Berkeley found the difference in the length between women's ring fingers and index fingers tend to be greater for lesbians than straight women. The same study also found that a greater difference in length of men's ring fingers and index fingers for gay men with several older brothers as compared to straight men.[5]"

Just difference in length? Does it make no difference which finger is longer? If, as I suspect, it does, the article should state this clearly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.255.176 (talk) 11:25, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Ring Finger is 7th from the right and 4th from the left
With palms up, the ring finger is the 7th from the right and the 4th from the left. 2601:589:4705:C7C0:2CB9:1829:FE1B:E64B (talk) 12:47, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Introduction
The current introduction was a little confusing - the text & infobox is about the a fourth finger with discussion of the cultural associations, but the lead was more about the cultural concept rather than the anatomical feature with that common name. I've recast it to be a bit clearer and in line with the articles on other fingers. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

FYI: Merger of related pages
There is consideration of a merger of the pages First finger, Second finger, Third finger and Fourth finger into a new page. Please discuss at Talk:First finger#Merge (2023), and

. — HTGS (talk) 23:11, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ring finger


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Talk:MultiCultural Aotearoa

Question
Hi, this looks like an interesting article. Can someone explain a bit more about the "racist attacks" which supposedly caused the formation of the MCA? When/where/who? Also, is the MCA still active? -- FP 07:55, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

 * See New Zealand National Front, where incidents of racial attacks are discussed. While researching this article I did not see any indication of ongoing activity by the MCA. It may have been a one-time coalition that joined together for a parade. BTW, thanks for your cleanup of the article. I'd been meaning to do that myself. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:08, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

 * If it's relevant, I was beaten walking home from work carrying my shopping a few weeks before this protest, but I doubt that this is one of the racial attacks mentioned, as I'm European and the racists that attacked me (and my sister a year prior) were Maori. Neither of us attended the protest. Enzedbrit 22:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure who the heck posted this article, but... The founding meeting itself, was just a general meeting of concerned citizens, which saw a number of heartfelt debates, including re. the issue of confrontation, with majority deciding that it was unethical, inappropriate and counterproductive. Naturally, there was a jewish presence at the meeting given the nature of the events that have given rise to it - that does not mean they were all zionists, and if they were - the point is?

Furthermore, half the people described were not present at the march, given some of the sentiments that came out at the meeting re. goals + means

so please make sure you verify your info

 * Comments on this page are not a part of the article. The article does not mention any of the people you listed. The article has been well-researched. Thanks, -Willmcw June 30, 2005 22:53 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:MultiCultural Aotearoa


text: User talk:69.216.245.57

title: User talk:69.216.245.57


text:
John C. Bogle

John Clifton "Jack" Bogle (May 8, 1929 – January 16, 2019) was an American investor, business magnate, and philanthropist. He was the founder and chief executive of The Vanguard Group and is credited with popularizing the index fund. An avid investor and money manager himself, he preached investment over speculation, long-term patience over short-term action, and reducing broker fees as much as possible. An ideal investment vehicle for Bogle was a low-cost index fund representing the entire US market, held over a lifetime with dividends reinvested.

His 1999 book Common Sense on Mutual Funds: New Imperatives for the Intelligent Investor became a bestseller and is considered a classic within the investment community.

Early life and education
John Bogle was born on May 8, 1929, in Montclair, New Jersey, to William Yates Bogle, Jr., and Josephine Lorraine Hipkins.

His family was harmed by the Great Depression. They lost their money and had to sell their home. His father fell into alcoholism, which resulted in his parents' divorce.

Bogle and his twin, David, attended Manasquan High School near the New Jersey shore for a time. Their academic record there enabled them to transfer to Blair Academy on work scholarships. At Blair, Bogle showed a particular aptitude for mathematics, with numbers and computations fascinating him. In 1947, Bogle graduated from Blair Academy cum laude and was accepted at Princeton University, where he studied economics and investment. During his university years, Bogle studied the mutual fund industry. He spent his junior and senior years working on his thesis "The Economic Role of the Investment Company".

Bogle graduated magna cum laude from Princeton in 1951 and was soon hired by Walter L. Morgan, founder of the Wellington Fund, reportedly as a result of Morgan reading his 130-page thesis.

Investment career
After graduating from Princeton, Bogle sought a position in banking or investments. Hired by Morgan at the Wellington Fund, Bogle was promoted to assistant manager in 1955, at which time he was able to analyze the company and its investment department. Bogle persuaded Wellington's to change its strategy of concentrating on a single fund and to create a new fund. Eventually he succeeded, and the new fund became a turning point in his career. After successfully climbing through the ranks, Bogle replaced Morgan as chairman of Wellington's mutual funds in 1970 but was later fired for an "extremely unwise" merger that he had approved. It was a poor decision which he later considered his biggest career mistake, stating: "The great thing about that mistake, which was shameful and inexcusable and a reflection of immaturity and confidence beyond what the facts justified, was that I learned a lot." He was motivated to form an index fund partly as a result of the merger's aftermath, the terms of which prohibited him from managing money directly on behalf of clients. Following an index created by Standard & Poor's allowed the creation of a fund that Bogle himself did not oversee.

In 1974, Bogle founded The Vanguard Group, which is now one of the most respected and successful companies in the investment world. In 1999, Fortune magazine named Bogle as "one of the four investment giants of the twentieth century".

In 1976, influenced by the works of Paul Samuelson, Bogle created the First Index Investment Trust (a precursor to the Vanguard 500 Index Fund) as one of the first index mutual fund available to the general public. It was not immediately well received by individuals or the investment industry but is now lauded by investment legend Warren Buffett, among others. In a 2005 speech, Samuelson ranked "this Bogle invention along with the invention of the wheel, the alphabet, Gutenberg printing".

In 1984, Bogle met with the management team of Primecap to launch a fund together. In November 1984, the Vanguard Primecap Fund was launched.

Bogle suffered heart issues in the 1990s, subsequently relinquishing his role as Vanguard CEO in 1996. His successor was John J. Brennan, his handpicked heir and second-in-command, whom he had hired in 1982. Bogle, who was then 66 and "considered past the age for a healthy heart transplant", had a successful heart transplant in 1996.

His subsequent return to Vanguard with the title of senior chairman led to conflict between Bogle and Brennan. Bogle left the company in 1999 and moved to Bogle Financial Markets Research Center, a small research institute not directly connected to Vanguard but located on the Vanguard campus.

Investment philosophy
The idea of passive investing in a fund that mirrors the entire stock market developed in the 1960s, mainly among University of Chicago researchers who found it was difficult or impossible to consistently pick winning stocks that will perform better than average. These researchers also argued that transaction and management costs were a significant drain on long-term investing returns.

The first index fund available to the general public was established in 1973 by Rex Sinquefield, who later went on to work at Dimensional Fund Advisors. This fund had billions of dollars under management after a few years, indicating the public was open to the new investing concept.

Bogle's early investing career was devoted to active management, though he was always aware of the importance of low fees and his funds had substantially lower costs than competitors. As academic research accumulated in favor of indexing, Bogle helped popularize these ideas and created an S&P 500 fund in 1975. He argued the index fund would mimic the index performance over the long run—thus achieving higher returns with lower costs than the costs associated with actively managed funds.

Bogle's idea of index investing offers a clear yet prominent distinction between investment and speculation. The main difference between investment and speculation lies in the time horizon and the risk of capital. Investment is concerned with capturing returns on the long run with lower risk of destruction of capital, while speculation is concerned with achieving returns over a short period of time, with potentially destructive risk to capital. The speculator is often only concerned with the price of a security and not the underlying business as a whole, while the investor is concerned with the underlying business and not the price of the security. Even if a business is steady in cash flow, the market quotations of a security are anything but, as a result of speculators driving up prices and bringing down prices based on hope, fear and greed. Bogle believed this is an important analysis to be taken into account as short-term, risky investments have been flooding the financial markets.

Bogle was known for his insistence, in numerous media appearances and in writing, on the superiority of index funds over traditional actively managed mutual funds. He contended that it is folly to attempt to pick actively managed mutual funds and expect their performance to beat a low-cost index fund over a long period of time, after accounting for the fees that actively managed funds charge. He was also keenly aware of the importance of overall market valuation, and developed a simple but reliable method to forecast long-term returns over decade-long periods. Bogle added existing dividend yield to expected earnings growth, then adjusted for overall market valuation as measured by price to earnings ratio and corrected for inflation. He argued most investors should have a minimum 20% bond allocation to reduce volatility, and should tend to increase their bond allocation when stocks became overvalued and as they age but should maintain at least a 20% stock allocation. In the late 1990s dot-com bubble, Bogle sold most of his stocks and correctly anticipated poor returns on stocks and superior results from bonds over the next ten years.

Bogle argued for an approach to investing defined by simplicity and common sense. Below are his eight basic rules for investors:
 * 1) Select low-cost funds
 * 2) Consider carefully the added costs of advice
 * 3) Do not overrate past fund performance
 * 4) Use past performance to determine consistency and risk
 * 5) Beware of stars (as in, star mutual fund managers)
 * 6) Beware of asset size
 * 7) Don't own too many funds
 * 8) Buy your fund portfolio – and hold it

His investment philosophy is the founding principle of the eponymous "Bogleheads" forum. This group is now supported by the John C. Bogle Center for Financial Literacy and hosts national conferences in addition to its online forum. Members of the group have collaborated to write three books expanding upon Bogle's investment philosophy.

Later in his life, Bogle expressed concerns that the growing popularity of passive indexing would lead to a concentration of corporate voting power for leaders of the three largest investment firms (Vanguard, BlackRock, and State Street), adding, "I do not believe that such a concentration would serve the national interest."

Personal life
Bogle attended his wife's Presbyterian church, but maintained his faith as an Episcopalian.

At age 31, Bogle suffered from his first of several heart attacks, and at age 38, he was diagnosed with the rare heart disease arrhythmogenic right ventricular dysplasia. He received a heart transplant in 1996 at age 66.

Bogle received honorary doctorates from Princeton University in 2005 and Villanova University in 2011. Bogle served on the board of trustees of the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia, a museum dedicated to the U.S. Constitution. He had previously served as chairman of the board from 1999 through 2007.

Politically, Bogle was a Republican (a self-described Teddy Roosevelt Republican), although he voted for Bill Clinton, Barack Obama in 2008 and 2012, and Hillary Clinton in 2016. He supported the Volcker rule and tighter rules on money market funds, and was critical of what he believed was the US government's lack of regulation of the financial sector. Bogle said the current system in the US had "gotten out of balance", and advocated for "taxes to discourage short-term speculation, limits on leverage, transparency for financial derivatives, stricter punishments for financial crimes, and a unified fiduciary standard for all money managers". In 2017, Bogle stated his belief that President Donald Trump's policies were good for the market in the short term, but dangerous for society as a whole in the long term.

Bogle died on January 16, 2019, at his home in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. After Bogle's death, Warren Buffett attributed Bogle's contribution to help individual investors to steer in a better "direction" in the field of investing. "Jack did more for American investors as a whole than any individual I've known", Buffett said in a CNBC interview. Bogle was also previously mentioned in Berkshire Hathaway's 2016 annual shareholder letter for his contribution of developing the investment landscape.

Philanthropy
During his high-earning years at Vanguard, he regularly gave half his salary to charity, including Blair Academy and Princeton. In 2016, the Bogle Fellowship was established at Princeton University by John C. Bogle Jr, Bogle's son. The fellowship sponsors 20 first year students in each class.

In 1991, he established The Armstrong Foundation, where "he gave back to the schools that had given him scholarships early in his life, the hospitals that had fixed his heart, his church, and the United Way".

Awards and honors

 * Named one of the investment industry's four "Giants of the 20th Century" by Fortune magazine in 1999.
 * Awarded the Woodrow Wilson Award from Princeton University for "distinguished achievement in the Nation's service" (1999).
 * Named one of the "world's 100 most powerful and influential people" by Time magazine in 2004.
 * Institutional Investor's Lifetime Achievement Award (2004).
 * Elected to the American Philosophical Society (2004).

title: John C. Bogle


text:
Assyria Liberation Party

The Assyria Liberation Party or Gabo D'Furqono D'Othur (GFA, in Syriac: ܓܒܐ ܕܦܘܪܩܢܐ ܕܐܬܘܪ) was founded in 1995, and since 1997 the party has published the magazine Furqono (Liberation,ܦܘܪܩܢܐ). The party is founded on the principles of Assyrian nationalism and the creation of an independent, sovereign state for Assyrians incorporating parts of southeastern Turkey, northeastern Syria and northern Iraq. The party's main support comes from Assyrian emigrants in Europe, Australia and United States.

title: Assyria Liberation Party


text:
John Eckert

John Eckert may refer to:

 * J. Presper Eckert (1919–1995), American electrical engineer and computer pioneer
 * John Eckert (musician) (born 1939), American jazz trumpeter

title: John Eckert


text:
Cluster (band)

Cluster were a German musical duo consisting of Hans-Joachim Roedelius and Dieter Moebius, formed in 1971 and associated with West Germany's krautrock and kosmische music scenes. Born from the earlier Berlin-based group Kluster, they relocated in 1971 into the countryside village of Forst, Lower Saxony, where they built a studio and collaborated with musicians such as Conny Plank, Brian Eno, and Michael Rother; with the latter, they formed the influential side-project Harmonia. After first disbanding in 1981, Cluster reunited several times: from 1989 to 1997, and from 2007 to 2010.

AllMusic described the group as "the most important and consistently underrated space rock unit of the '70s." Music historian Julian Cope places three Cluster albums—Cluster II (1972), Zuckerzeit (1974), and Sowiesoso (1976)—in his Krautrock Top 50 and The Wire places the debut album in its "One Hundred Records That Set the World on Fire".

1971–1972: Early works
Dieter Moebius, Hans-Joachim Roedelius and Conrad Schnitzler formed Kluster in 1969 after the three had met at the Zodiak Free Arts Lab. This trio released three albums, Klopfzeichen, Zwei-Osterei and Eruption. When Schnitzler left the group, Roedelius and Moebius became Cluster. They were joined by Conny Plank on their debut self-titled release in 1971. They continued as a duo thereafter but worked extensively with producer/engineer Plank until his death in 1987.

Cluster's first release, an eponymous debut in 1971 on Philips, was the first major label release for the musicians. Previous Kluster works had been small or private label releases with no more than 300 copies pressed and sold. This album and the 1972 follow-up were a musical bridge between the avant-garde, discordant, proto-industrial sound of Kluster and the softer and more controlled ambient and rock sounds of their mid to late '70s albums. Cluster (later reissued as Cluster '71) has little or no discernible melody or beat. Allmusic review describes it, in part as "...a dislocating, disorienting meld of random space music, industrial noise, proto-ambient atmospherics, feedback, and soundwash..." The first album is also the only Cluster release on which Conny Plank is listed as a full third member of the band. He is credited as a composer and producer on Cluster II. Cluster signed with the influential Krautrock label Brain Records for their second release, a relationship which would continue through 1975.

1973–1979: Harmonia, Zuckerzeit, and Eno
In 1971 the duo moved to the rural village of Forst, West Germany to live in several Renaissance-era farmhouses and build their own studio. There Cluster and Neu! co-founder Michael Rother recorded two albums under the name Harmonia: Musik von Harmonia in 1974 and Deluxe in 1975, both released on Brain. This new trio also toured and a CD drawn from this period, Live 1974 was released in 2007.

After the release of the first Harmonia album and a period on tour, Rother returned to working with Klaus Dinger and an expanded Neu! lineup in order to complete his contractual obligations. In his absence Cluster went back to work as a duo, releasing Zuckerzeit later in 1974. Zuckerzeit sounds different from any other Cluster album, with clearly defined melody and beat and a rhythmic sound, at times approaching the Motorik style of Neu! Pitchfork Media places Zuckerzeit at number 63 in their "Top 100 Albums of the 1970s".

After the release of Deluxe Moebius, Roedelius, and Rother met in the studio again in 1976 and worked with Brian Eno. The resulting album, Tracks and Traces, was not released until 1997. Eno had been impressed with both Musik von Harmonia and Zuckerzeit before and had joined Harmonia once on tour in 1974, jamming with the group at The Fabrik in Hamburg.

In a 1997 interview, Hans-Joachim Roedelius spoke about the influence Rother had on Cluster's musical direction, on Zuckerzeit, and on subsequent releases:"'Michael, as well as Eno, gave a lot and had a certain focus regarding our common work... Obviously working with Michael changed my and Moebius' focus, I don't know if Michael got the same benefit from working with us as we did working with him.'"

The period from 1976–1979 was Cluster's most productive, with the four albums released during those four years receiving the most critical acclaim of any of Cluster's works. 1976 also marked Cluster's move to Hamburg based Sky Records. Their first release for Sky was Sowiesoso, a highly creative album of gentler melodies recorded in just two days.

In 1977 the duo joined with Brian Eno for recording sessions at Conny Plank's studio. The first release from those sessions was the even softer Cluster & Eno. Guest musicians on the album included Can bassist Holger Czukay and Asmus Tietchens on synthesizer. The association with Eno brought Cluster a much wider audience and international attention. The second album drawn from the Cluster & Eno sessions, After the Heat, released on Sky in 1978, featured a much wider variety of styles, including three tracks with vocals by Eno. Holger Czukay again played bass on one track, "Tzima N'arki" which featured the vocals of the Eno track "King's Lead Hat" recorded backwards. Roedelius also began releasing solo material during this period, beginning with Durch die Wüste for Sky in 1978.

Cluster's 1979 release Grosses Wasser was produced by ex-Tangerine Dream member Peter Baumann and once again featured a wide variety of styles, including some of the most avant-garde material since the demise of Kluster, particularly during the middle section of the title track, which occupied all of side two.

1980–1989: Curiosum and related projects
On 12 June 1980 Cluster performed at the Wiener Festwochen Alternativ with Joshi Farnbauer. The performance was recorded and released as a limited edition cassette on the British York House Records (YHR) label and later in Germany on the Transmitter label of "Grüne Kraft" owner Werner Pieper. This one and only Cluster & Farnbauer release was titled Live in Vienna. The style of the music is highly experimental and discordant and very reminiscent of Moebius and Roedelius' early work with Conrad Schnitzler in Kluster. Live in Vienna was not released on CD until 2010, though two sections, each between 15 and 16 minutes long, were included as bonus tracks on the Hypnotic CD reissues of the first two Kluster albums, Klopfzeichen and Zwei-Osterei.

Also in 1980, Sky Records reissued the first Cluster release with new artwork and a new title: Cluster '71. That same year, Dieter Moebius teamed with former Cluster member, engineer and producer Conny Plank on the album Rastakraut Pasta, released on Sky. A second Moebius & Plank album, Material, was released in 1981.

Cluster's 1981 release Curiosum lives up to its name, with the seven tracks of offbeat and unusual melodies. Curiosum was Cluster's last release for Sky. It was also the final collaboration between Moebius and Roedelius before an eight-year-long hiatus.

During their hiatus from Cluster both Moebius and Roedelius continued to record and tour. They produced both solo albums and collaborations with other artists.

Moebius continued to work with Conny Plank. Moebius, Plank and Guru Guru drummer Mani Neumeier recorded the African-influenced, rhythmic album Zero Set, released by Sky in 1983. That same year, Moebius and Plank teamed with Mayo Thompson to record Ludwig's Law, which was not released until 1998. The final Moebius & Plank collaboration, En Route was recorded in 1986 but not released until 1995 on Curious Music. Plank died of cancer in 1987.

Roedelius released numerous solo albums and collaborations during this period, including continuing his Selbstportrait series of introspective ambient albums.

Sky Records, faced with no new material to release, turned to compilation albums to fill the gap. The 1984 release Stimmungen featured material from Sowiesoso and Grosses Wasser. In addition, two compilations credited to Eno, Moebius, Roedelius, and Plank, titled Begegnungen and Begegnungen II were released in 1984 and 1985 respectively. These collections included material from Sowiesoso, Cluster & Eno and After the Heat and also contained material from Moebius and Roedelius solo albums as well as the three Moebius & Plank albums released at that time. Cluster also had their first U.S. release in 1985: Relativity Records issued Old Land, credited to Cluster and Brian Eno and containing a mix of material from Cluster & Eno and After the Heat.

1989–1997: First reunion
In 1989 Cluster reunited, recording Apropos Cluster in 1989 and 1990. The album was released on the Curious Music label in 1991. Apropos Cluster is musically and structurally similar to Grosses Wasser, with four short tracks followed by the nearly 22 minute long, more experimental title piece. Apropos Cluster was Cluster's first album to be released initially in the U.S., and it was followed by American reissues of their Sky and Brain catalogs during the early and mid '90s.

Cluster's next album was the 1995 release One Hour. This album featured a single, long musical piece, the longest ever recorded by Cluster, divided into 11 tracks on the CD. One Hour is structured much like the title track of Grosses Wasser, with short, soft melodic sections at the beginning and the end sandwiching a longer experimental central section. One Hour was the last studio album released by Cluster until 2009, 14 years later.

Cluster used the liner notes for One Hour to pay tribute to the late Konrad (Conny) Plank: "However the most creative input and personal support over the years came from Konrad Plank, who was, in effect, a 'silent member in the background'."

In 1996 Cluster had acclaimed concert tours in Japan as well as their first tour of the United States. The concert tours produced musical documents: the albums Japan 1996 Live, released on the Japanese Captain Trip label in 1997 and First Encounter Tour 1996, recorded in the United States and released on the American Purple Pyramid label, also in 1997. Tim Story, best known as a keyboardist and ambient music composer, co-produced Japan 1996 Live and produced First Encounter Tour 1996, an association which would lead to later musical collaboration between Roedelius and Story. After the United States tour Roedelius and Moebius parted.

1997–2007: Hiatus and second reunion
During the decade that followed Moebius and Roedelius worked on various solo projects and collaborations.

Roedelius continued to record and tour with Aquarello, who released a self-titled live album in 1998. In 2000 Roedelius reunited with Kluster bandmate Conrad Schnitzler for the first time in nearly three decades. The resulting album, Acon 2000/1 was released on Captain Trip in 2001. Roedelius recorded two albums with Tim Story: The Persistence of Memory in 2000 and Lunz in 2002. A collaboration with Mott the Hoople alumnus Morgan Fisher, Neverless, was released in 2005. A total of 14 solo albums and three additional collaborations were recorded by Roedelius during this period.

Moebius recorded two solo albums during his second hiatus from Cluster: Blotch in 1999 and Nurton in 2006. Moebius also performed and toured with former Harmonia bandmate Michael Rother during this period. He also worked on an album by the new Krautrock supergroup Amon Guru which was released in 2007.

Moebius and Roedelius reunited for a performance at the Kosmische Club in Camden, London on 15 April 2007. They also performed at the opening of documenta 12 on 15 June 2007 in Kassel, Germany and the fourth annual More Ohr Less festival in Lunz, Austria on 10 August 2007. From September to November 2007 Cluster had additional concert performances in Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Estonia, and the Netherlands. Roedelius also gave a solo concert performance in Ojai, California in the United States. Moebius and Roedelius have also reunited with Michael Rother and the first Harmonia concert in more than 30 years took place in Berlin on 27 November 2007. They performed at the opening of documenta 12, a major exhibition of modern and contemporary art held every five years in Kassel, Germany on 15 June 2007.

Cluster performed in the United States for the first time since 1996 at the Detroit Institute of Arts on 16 May 2008 and for the No Fun Fest at the Knitting Factory in New York City on 17 May 2008. They also performed four dates in California from 22 to 25 May.

The first Cluster album since 1997 drawn from their live performance in Berlin on 14 September 2007 was released on Important Records in Spring, 2008.

They performed a one-off live collaboration with Chrome Hoof in London on 21 March 2009. In May 2009 they released Qua, their first studio album in over a decade.

On 22 November 2009, Cluster supported Tortoise at the Royal Festival Hall in London.

On 17 November 2010, Roedelius announced, via email and across social media, that Cluster would split up at end of 2010. Their final concert took place in Minehead, Somerset, England, on 5 December 2010. Roedelius announced that he would perform as "Qluster" with musician Onnen Bock and a trilogy of releases was planned, the first of which was released in May 2011.

Musical style
Cluster's musical style varied greatly over their career. AllMusic described them as "the most important and consistently underrated space rock unit of the '70s," noting that they first began as "an improv group that used everything from synthesizers to alarm clocks and kitchen utensils in their performances" and later transitioned to produce "many landmark LPs in the field of German space music often termed kosmische." On 1974's Zuckerzeit, the group shifted to a more accessible sound that "combined trippy drum machine rhythms with woozy, pastoral melodies, resulting in a skewed, playful vision of futuristic pop." Cluster later explored ambient music into the 1990s.

Cluster has been widely influential not only to ambient and electronic music artists, but to techno, electronica and popular music as well. Artists and groups whose music has been influenced by Cluster include David Bowie, Robert Rich, John Foxx (formerly of Ultravox), Alex Paterson of The Orb, Coil, Oval, To Rococo Rot, and Mouse on Mars.

Core members

 * Hans-Joachim Roedelius (1971–2010)
 * Dieter Moebius (1971–2010)
 * Conny Plank (as musician, 1971, as composer 1971–1972, as engineer/producer 1971–1978)

Other musicians

 * Brian Eno (1977–1978) – synthesizer, vocals, producer, bass
 * Holger Czukay (1977–1978) – bass
 * Asmus Tietchens (1977) – synthesizer
 * Okko Bekker (1977) – guitar
 * Joshi Farnbauer (1980) – percussion
 * Stanislaw Michalik (1990) – bass
 * Bond Bergland – guitar (1996)
 * Paul M. Fox (1996) – musician/engineer
 * Tommy Grenas (Johnston) (1996) – musician

Production

 * Peter Baumann (1979) – producer
 * William Roper (1979) – engineer
 * Felix Jay (1996) – producer
 * Tim Story (1996–1997) – producer/engineer
 * Hiroshi Okunari (1996) – engineer, Osaka
 * Russ Curry (1996) – engineer

Studio albums

 * 1971 Cluster
 * 1972 Cluster II
 * 1974 Zuckerzeit
 * 1976 Sowiesoso
 * 1977 Cluster & Eno (with Brian Eno)
 * 1978 After the Heat (by Eno, Moebius and Roedelius)
 * 1979 Grosses Wasser
 * 1981 Curiosum
 * 1991 Apropos Cluster (by Moebius and Roedelius)
 * 1995 One Hour
 * 2009 Qua

Live albums

 * 1980 Live in Vienna, 1980 (with Joshi Farnbauer)
 * 1997 Japan 1996 Live
 * 1997 First Encounter Tour 1996
 * 2008 Berlin 07
 * 2015 USA Live
 * 2017 Konzerte 1972/1977

Compilation albums

 * 1984 Begegnungen (with Brian Eno, Conny Plank)
 * 1984 Stimmungen
 * 1985 Begegnungen II (with Brian Eno, Conny Plank)
 * 1985 Old Land (with Brian Eno)
 * 2007 Box 1 (boxed set)

title: Cluster (band)


text:
Rocketplane Limited, Inc.

Rocketplane Limited, Inc. was a spacecraft design and development company headquartered in De Pere, Wisconsin. After filing for bankruptcy, the company reincorporated as Rocketplane Global Inc.

History
Rocketplane Limited, Inc. was incorporated under the laws of the state of Oklahoma on 16 July 2001. After going bankrupt, it was bought out of bankruptcy, and renamed to Rocketplane Global. As of April, 2017, it is incorporated in Delaware. The corporation's founders envisioned building a rocketplane that would send passengers more than 330,000 feet (100 km) above the Earth and launch satellites. In 2004, Rocketplane Limited was designated a Qualified Space Transportation Provider by the State of Oklahoma under the guidelines specified in SB 817. With this designation, the State of Oklahoma awarded to Rocketplane re-sellable tax credits that were used to initiate operations, develop facilities, and recruit the required engineering staff.

Rocketplane Global Inc. (A Delaware company) is the current name of the company. Rocketplane Global Inc. is the successor of Pioneer Rocketplane, Rocketplane Limited of Oklahoma, Rocketplane Kistler, and Rocketplane Global LLC.

Pioneer Rocketplane and Rocketplane Kistler have been dissolved. Kistler Space Systems has replaced the Kistler part of Rocketplane Kistler. Rocketplane Kistler owned the intellectual property of Pioneer.

George French, CEO of Rocketplane Limited, announced on 27 February 2006 that he was purchasing Kistler Aerospace for an undisclosed sum, and renaming it Rocketplane Kistler. Kistler Aerospace had designed and begun construction of the K-1 launch vehicle, a fully reusable two-stage to orbit launcher, but filed for bankruptcy before the vehicle could be completed. French used the K-1 to bid for commercial crew and cargo resupply contracts to the International Space Station under the NASA COTS (Commercial Orbital Transportation Services) program. This contract was awarded jointly to SpaceX and Rocketplane Kistler on 18 August 2006.

Space tourism
Rocketplane Limited intended to fly space tourism flights using the Rocketplane XP spaceplane it was building. It had announced plans to fly the XP in 2007, but on August 31, 2007 its chief executive officer, Calvin Burgess, said test flights would be delayed until 2009 and commercial flights were pushed back until at least 2010. Rocketplane anticipated ticket prices of US$200,000 for a seat on a suborbital flight, including 4 minutes of weightlessness, with an apogee of over 100 kilometers altitude.

Bankruptcy
Space News, Aviation Week and the Oklahoma Gazette reported layoffs and funding problems. These publications reported, "Rocketplane Kistler officials failed to meet a funding deadline mandated by a NASA contract to build a reusable rocket ..."

Space News reported in a June 25, 2007 story, "... if RpK [Rocketplane Kistler] misses the new deadline, it would be the fourth time the company has gone back to NASA and requested an extension."

On October 18, 2007, NASA discontinued its agreement with Rocketplane Kistler, and announced that the remaining $175 million commitment to the project would be made available to other companies. On October 19, the company appealed the decision, and asked NASA to reconsider the termination or, alternatively, pay $10 million in costs incurred to date.

In February 2009, Rocketplane vacated its Oklahoma City headquarters building. According to Oklahoma State Representative David Dank, Rocketplane no longer has any presence in the state, but they left with no debt owing to Oklahoma. Rocketplane filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy and liquidation in July 2010.

Out of bankruptcy
In 2011 Rocketplane Limited's assets were sold in an auction and bought by George French and John Burgener. The assets were rolled into the new company Rocketplane Global LLC, based in De Pere, Wisconsin. Focus moved from passenger flights with the XP spaceplane to satellites with the Pathfinder / XS larger rocketplane. Rocketplane Global significantly updated and revised the Pathfinder plans to submit a bid for DARPA's XS-1 program, but did not win a contract. Rocketplane Global moved its state of incorporation to Delaware in April, 2017, to allow for better financing opportunities.

Recent History
Rocketplane Global Inc. has one of the most affordable designs to provide reusable launch services for small to medium satellites. With an expected retail price of $20 million per launch, and a 2,000 kg payload to LEO, Rocketplane Global can provide launch services at half the present retail pricing on launches. Rocketplane Global has agreements to launch over 100 satellites starting in 2021 - 2022 if it can obtain sufficient funding in 2017.

The XS design
Rocketplane Global's XS design follows on the work done on the XP passenger vehicle and continues using jet engines for take off and flight to altitude. It then loads on LOX and fuel from a tanker airplane, and then fires its rocket engines and flies to 100+ km, where it releases a second stage booster to carry the satellite(s) to orbit. With a totally reusable first stage, and an expendable second stage, the costs are minimized and the system is more reliable than trying to land vertical take off and landing rockets.

title: Rocketplane Limited, Inc.


text:
Talk:Joseph Needham

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 June 2019 and 31 July 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JaySafakish.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:29, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hell ghost69.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments
I am trying to beef-up the China section in the History of science. This poem is from memory; I read it 30 years ago but am hesitant to enter it into the article unless you know where I can dig up a copy of Needham's 3-6 volume book. -- regards, Ancheta Wis 02:04, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I farm the the land from which I take my food.
 * I watch the sun rise and the sun set.
 * Kings can ask no more.
 * --this is the sense of a Chinese poem quoted by Joseph Needham

I heard from my Chinese history professor that he had an affair with a young chinese student of his. Is this the same one that he married? Maybe that should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.64.174 (talk) 22:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Hopkins' biochemistry lab will not have been in Caius College - the colleges only have offices, meeting rooms and living/dining accomodation - but somewhere else in Cambridge. Cmarooney (talk) 14:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Use of honorary title in article
I have removed the references to Needham as "Sir Joseph" or "Sir Needham" because:
 * I assume the title was bestowed on him and as not inherited. I assume this because the references to his parents does not suggest they were members of the nobility.
 * If the knighthood was bestowed upon Needham rather than inheriting it, the use of it as an honorific is not supported by Wikipedia naming conventions. This is outlined at Naming conventions (names and titles) under "Other non-royal names, point 5.

The actual title bestowed upon Needham could be added to the article (for example, a Knight of the ....?), but for consistency with other articles, the honorific preceding his name should not be used. Euryalus 11:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

If you can put a label on all Joseph's work what would it be, mine is 'made in China'. lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.194.176.23 (talk) 13:34, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

My additions
This is what I included.

Works by Joseph Needham

Science, religion and reality (1925)

Chemical embryology (1931)

The great amphibium, four lectures on the position of religion in a world dominated by science (1931)

Perspectives in biochemistry; thirty-one essays presented to Sir Frederick Gowland Hopkins by past and present members of his laboratory (1937)

History is On Our Side (1947)

Science outpost; papers of the Sino-British science co-operation office (British council scientific office in China) 1942-1946 (1948)

Science and civilisation in China (1954)

Science and civilization in China, by Joseph Needham, with the research assistance [and collaboration] of Wang Ling. (1954-59) 2 Volumes

A History of Embryology (1959)

The grand titration: science and society in East and West (1969)

Within the four seas : the dialogue of east and west (1969)

Clerks and craftsmen in China and the west: lectures and addresses on the history of science and technology (1970)

Chinese science; explorations of an ancient tradition (1973)

Moulds of understanding : a pattern of natural philosophy (1976)

The shorter Science and civilisation in China, volume 1 : an abridgement of Joseph Needham's original text (1978)

The shorter science and civilisation in China, volume 2 : an abridgement of Joseph Needham's original text (1978)

The shorter Science and civilisation in China : an abridgement of Joseph Needham's original text, volume 3 (1978)

Science in Traditional China (1982)

Science in traditional China : a comparative perspective (1982)

The Genius of China (1986)

Heavenly clockwork : the great astronomical clocks of medieval China (1986)

The Hall of Heavenly Records : Korean astronomical instruments and clocks, 1380-1780 (1986)

-Bill-

April 26, 2008

Languages
In a May 2008 interview, Simon Winchester says that Needham spoke seven languages other than Chinese. Any information on that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.77.67 (talk) 21:21, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The Man Who Loved China: The Eccentric Scientist Who Unlocked the Mysteries of the Middle Kingdom Winchester

Criticism
Since there was only one sentence in the subsections, I consolidated. I also substituted another article by Robert Finlay which is more directly concerned with the question.

This section (indeed the whole article) needs to be beefed up. ch (talk) 23:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I made a few tweaks but will return with more substantial evaluations. I would appreciate any suggestions ch (talk) 01:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Worthy of more
I am no sinologist, but according to a BBC World Service report broadcast 27 sept 08, in China he is the best known of all Englishmen. Needham's magnum opus Science and Civilisation in China is a huge, astonishing, personally researched, and - by all accounts - readable investigation of 'Needham's Question', significant enough to have spawned a research institute at Cambridge. According to a BBC World Service report broadcast 27 sept 08, he is the best known Englishman in China. I'm going to mark it with 'expand' - because as it stands the book seems like just one work among many. If doing so violates any wikipedia etiquette please remove it. Ancheta - the institute could perhaps help with your poem quote

Lu Gui Zhen - Lu Gwei Djen
Hi, it seems that Lu Gui Zhen (mentioned in the Career section) and Lu Gwei Djen (mentioned in the Personal life section) are one and the same person. If so, I'd suggest editing the broken link at the first mention of Lu (in the Career section) and redirect it to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Gwei-djen. Also, maybe it would be a good idea to unify the spelling (or explain that both refer to the same person). I don't do it myself because I am just a beginner in the study of Chinese civilisation and wouldn't like to mess with the article. Thanks!

He was also an eugenist.
Joseph Needham was also an eugenist.In fact, he was among the signatories of the eugenics manifesto in 1939.Agre22 (talk) 12:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)agre22

Objection to text
I object to the following text in the article (section Evaluations and critiques, second paragraph, final sentence):

 * Sivin's criticism can arguably be rejected as ruling out all discussion of causes in history, on the basis that the cause of every historical event is that if it hadn't occurred that would be counterfactual, and thus supposedly not susceptible of a useful answer.

In the first place, it appears to be an editor's opinion. In the second place, the sentence is incoherent. In the third place, assuming I've deciphered the sentence correctly, the editor fails to understand Silvin's criticism. There is an obvious difference between asking why something did happen (a useful question about a factual situation, for which we can examine evidence etc.) and asking why something didn't happen (a useless question about a counterfactual situation, for which there is no evidence to examine).Faagel (talk) 14:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

"Why didn't he get up in the morning?

"Because he died in his sleep."

Perfectly reasonable question to ask. 'Why didn't China develop as Europe did?' is no different than 'Why did Europe develop as China didn't?' This is fundamentally different than asking 'What would have happened if the Nazis won the war?' MarkinBoston (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Broken link
There's a broken link for the Terry Lectures in the section Biography: Career. I am not able to fix it. Would someone with permission please do so? Thanks. KC 19:16, 8 February 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boydstra (talk • contribs)

 * It wasn't a broken link as such, but there was no article at the destination. I've created Terry Lecture as a redirect to Dwight H. Terry Lectureship. DuncanHill (talk) 19:24, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Reduce "Needham Question" section?
The section is now roughly 2,000 words, which approaches half the size of the entire article, and much of the section does not concern or mention Needham, and some does not concern the Needham Question.

I propose to leave but slightly expand paragraphs one through five ("There are several hypotheses...), then move those further paragraphs that do not mention Needham to the "See also" articles at the head of the section. I will also add several recent references on the Question.

Readers will still have the section "Evaluations and critiques".ch (talk) 05:01, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Joseph Needham


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Las Colinas

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was no consensus, so keep. --Deathphoenix 22:47, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I count 3 keep and 4 delete.
 * I did not count the keep vote by User:BigHonky as the user has only contributed to this VfD.
 * 2-3 of the delete votes are based on this town being a planned town; however, I am still counting them, hence the "no consensus" result.

Las Colinas
No vote as of yet. Article says this is a planned development, but the first external link goes nowhere, and the second doesn't support the article. Reads like an advertisement, but not really sure what to make of it. Android79 02:07, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, Wikipedia is not Property.com. Alphax (t) (c) (e) 04:15, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * errr.... Las Colinas is a suburb of Los Angeles. At the very least, if this is going to exist, it needs to be behind a disambiguation page. (del, i think) Avriette 13:25, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete I'm frankly not thrilled that every town is counted notable, but this isn't even a town. It doesn't even EXIST yet. Nonnotable to the point of absurdity. --InShaneee 18:09, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Come back when it exists. Radiant! 11:59, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, Las Colinas does exist. I live there. :-) I have edited the page to say that it is a developed area versus a planned development, although I think the original author meant "planned development" not in the sense of future planning, but in the sense of there is a master plan for the whole development, like "planned community". It is a familiar name to anyone in the DFW Metroplex. I would agree with Avriette that it might need to be behind a disambiguation page.  I will attempt to find some more useful info to add as well. Dennypayne 05:05, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, quite notable. "Planned" in the sense of having been centrally planned, rather than having grown organically (quite unusual for Texas, I might add). Includes HQs of quite a few corporations. Most of the delete votes seem to be based on miscomprehension of the sense of the word "planned" here. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:51, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Change vote to Keep given the rewrite and my misunderstanding of the word "planned." Sorry for that, but I didn't have much to go on! :o) Android79 13:39, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep,I am kind of new to Wikipedia, however my uncle was one of the people behind the Las Colinas development when he worked for Faison back in the 60-70's, I would like to update the info on this page. I feel that Las Colinas was a huge failure becuase of the economic situation of the time, yet it was a tremendous idea as well. Please remember too that #1 I live in the zip code of Las Colinas (75039) and Exxon is headquartered here as well [unsigned comment from User:BigHonky ]
 * Go for it! Just remember to maintain NPOV when writing. If Las Colinas is regarded as a failure by many (and you can cite the sources to back it up), then it probably belongs in the article. Android79 03:07, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Ski school

Magic carpet
Some mention should be made of the magic carpet thing that many ski resorts have for super-intro skiiers. -- John Fader 02:05, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose to merge a total of 4 articles (Canadian Ski Instructors' Alliance, Canadian Association of Snowboard Instructors, Canadian Adaptive Snowsports, and Professional Ski Instructors of America & American Association of Snowboard Instructors) into Ski school. I think that the content in these articles can easily be explained in the context of Ski school. This would allow us to expand Ski school and conserve content from CSIA, CASI, CADS, and PSIA-AASI which have been (or definitely will be) challenged for notability and generally rely too heavily on primary sources... Spyder212 (talk) 13:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose, each organization listed passes WP:GNG to have an article of its own. Flibirigit (talk) 04:47, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose, those 4 organizations are each easily independently notable. Vermont (talk) 00:02, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ski school


text:
Talk:Vagrant Records

Untitled
Wait a second... Why are bands that are still on Vagrant's current roster continually getting deleted? Rockingharder 06:07, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Is "major label corporate masters" a valid phrase? It seems very biased againest anyone who is involved with "major labels."

Tone
This article reads like an advertisement for the label. Also, the tone is informal and lacks neutrality.

Alkaline Trio
I think Alk3 is only an internet abbreviation. I don't think they ever called themselves that. /Sven

The Get Up Kids aren't from Lawrence
The Get Up Kids are from Kansas City, MO and not Lawrence, KS. Most of the band lives in Lawrence now, but they were originally from South-of-the-river Kansas City. (Except for James Dewees, who was from Liberty, MO) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rwiggum (talk • contribs) 14:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The 1975
Why does this band have their own section? It just duplicates the bio from The 1975 and adds no notable information. Xnyldotnet (talk) 00:06, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Independent
They are owned by BMG. They are not independent. AmericanLeMans (talk) 04:50, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Vagrant Records


text:
Talk:May-issue

Page title
"July issue? Might issue? Is tree-pollen allergy a "May issue"? Just possibly this might find a title with a broader context. If it does actually stand alone. Couldn't a sensible place for this brief note be found at a somewhat broader topic heading? --Wetman 02:08, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Agreed; page moved from "May issue" to "May-issue". /blahedo (t) 21:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

List?
Could someone dig up which states have this law? Online sources are conflicting. Twinxor t 05:42, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Merge
Page was merged to Concealed carry in the United States —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurrh (talk • contribs) 20:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:May-issue


text:
Dancon/Irak

Dancon/Irak (short for Danish Contingent/Irak) was a Danish ground contingent deployed to Iraq from June 2003 to July 2007, during the Iraq War.

History
Dancon/Irak was established on 21 March 2003, and activated on 23 April of the same year. Dancon's units were subordinate to Multi-National Division (South East) ("MND (SE)"), which is responsible for the southern provinces of Al Basrah, Maysan, Dhi Qar and Al Muthanna in Iraq. MND (SE) was a British-run division containing units from several other European nations.

Dancon arrived in Kuwait on 2 June 2003, and reached its Area of Responsibility (AOR) in Iraq on 6 June 2003. After an initial setup phase, Dancon/Irak took official charge of its AOR on 12 June 2003 during a ceremonial reception in CIMIC-house, Al-Qurna, from the British Joint NBC Regiment.

The formation was initially 380 personnel, and 42 more were added in July/August 2003. By February 2005, the contingent consisted of approximately 545 soldiers. Danish troops were rotated every six months, and each contingent had a slightly different composition of units and men. By March 2007, its size had fallen to about 460.

A 53-man Lithuanian unit, designated LITCON, had been attached to Dancon since June 2003. They were withdrawn along with the Danes by August 2007. Additionally, Denmark temporarily deployed around 35 soldiers as guards for the United Nations presence in Baghdad, and as of 2005, had sent ten instructors and seven guards to serve under the NATO Training Mission in Iraq.

The 601st Iraqi National Guard Battalion was briefly under Dancon command, as was a detachment of about 130 British troops in February 2004, due to the expansion of their AOR.

The majority of the Danish troops deployed to Iraq withdrew at the end of July 2007 and were replaced by a 55-member contingent, known as HELDAT (under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Jannik Skov), whose task was to operate a unit of four helicopters in support of British and Iraqi forces.

Composition of Dancon/Irak

Each contingent of Dancon consisted of the following units:

 * A Staff & Logistics Company
 * A Mechanized Infantry Company
 * A Light Recon Company
 * A Military Police Detachment
 * A Medical Platoon
 * NSE Unit (National Support Element)
 * STOF MND (SC) (Liaison Personnel)
 * STOF MND (SE) (Liaison Personnel)

Also attached in the invasion phase:

 * Jægerkorps detachment (Special Forces) (briefly attached again in April 2007 )
 * Engineer detachment (briefly attached again in late 2004)

Camp Eden
Camp Eden was located about 9 km north west of Al-Qurnah, near Glory Canal. The camp was built in June/July 2003 by the then attached Engineer Company. Covering around 500,000 m2, it was built on top of one of Saddam Hussein's military installations, previously destroyed. The camp was nicknamed "Ørken Fortet" (Desert Fortress) by the locals. Its radio-communications code name was "Amsterdam". Camp Eden was disassembled in August–September 2004 when Dancon's AOR doubled in size due to an expansion further South. Dancon moved to Camp Danevang, located inside Shaiba Logistics Base.

Cimic-House
Cimic-House, located in Al-Qurnah, is a former Ba'ath Party building. It was the site of the Danish Civil-Military Co-operation (CIMIC) from June 2003 to May 2004 when it was handed over to the Iraqis.

Camp Yggdrasil
Camp Yggdrasil was located on Shaiba Logistics Base, about 15 km west of Basra. It was built during June/July 2003. The home of the National Support Element (NSE), the camp was later incorporated into the newly built Camp Danevang. Yggdrasil, from which the camp was named, is a mythological tree between heaven and hell in Norse mythology.

Camp Danevang
Camp Danevang, located on the Shaiba Logistics Base, was officially handed over by the construction company on 18 October 2004. However, it had already been in use since September of that year, following the closure of Camp Eden.

The units responsible for the construction of the camp were the Army Operational Command (Hærens Operative Kommando) and the Defence Construction Service (Forsvarets Bygningstjeneste). The foundations of the camp were built by Danish Camp Supply A/S and Iraqi Basra Engineering. The construction of the actual camp and all the associated requirements, including the transportation of all equipment from Camp Eden, was done by Dancon itself with help from an attached Engineer Detachment and the Danish International Logistical Center.

It was decided in June 2004 to reposition Dancon to this location following the doubling of Dancon's AOR (now about 20,000 km2, nearly extending all the way down to Kuwait), thus allowing Dancon to be more centralized in its AOR. Camp Danevang was handed over to the Iraqi authorities in March 2007.

Camp Einherjer
In January 2007 Dancon relocated to Camp Einherjer, located on the British Basra Air Station, west of Basra. The camp was built between November 2006 and January 2007. With the withdrawal of both Dancon and its smaller successor HELDAT from Southern Iraq, the fate of camp Einherher is unclear (presumably, it has been transferred to Iraqi forces).

Subordination
While Dancon was subordinate to Multi-National Division (South-East), the British division that ran MND (SE) often changed, meaning that control of Dancon switched between various units.

 * June 2003 – ?, British 7th Armoured Brigade / 1st UK Armoured Division
 * September 2003 – ?, British 19th Mechanised Brigade / 3rd UK Mechanised Division
 * February 2004 – ?, British 20th Armoured Brigade / 1st UK Armoured Division
 * ? – May 2006, British 7th Armoured Brigade / 1st UK Armoured Division
 * May 2006 – ?, British 20th Armoured Brigade / 1st UK Armoured Division

Commanders

 * Dancon/Irak1 (May 2003 – October 2003) – Colonel Niels H. Bundsgaard
 * Dancon/Irak2 (October 2003 – 13 February 2004) – Colonel Henrik Højris Friis
 * Dancon/Irak3 (13 February 2004 – 4 August 2004) – Colonel Henrik Flach
 * Dancon/Irak3 (4 August 2004 – 23 August 2004) – Lieutenant Colonel Poul-Erik Andersen
 * Dancon/Irak4 (23 August 2004 – 18 February 2005) – Colonel John Dalby
 * Dancon/Irak5 (18 February 2005 – 20 August 2005) – Colonel Henrik Lyhne
 * Dancon/Irak6 (20 August 2005 – 16 February 2006) – Colonel Flemming Toft
 * Dancon/Irak7 (16 February 2006 – 20 August 2006) – Colonel Henrik Berg
 * Dancon/Irak8 (20 August 2006 – 16 February 2007) – Colonel Per Mikkelsen
 * Dancon/Irak9 (16 February 2007 - 2 August 2007) - Colonel Kim Bruno Petersen

Fatalities during Dancon/Irak
Since 2003, seven Danish soldiers have lost their lives in Iraq.
 * 16 August 2003, Lance-corporal Preben Pedersen, from the Jydske Dragonregiment (Jutland Dragoon Regiment), was killed by friendly fire.
 * 1 October 2005, a Danish army reserve officer, from the Jydske Dragonregiment, First lieutenant Bjarke Olsen Kirkmand was killed by a roadside bomb.
 * 23 March 2006, a Private from Den Kongelige Livgarde (the Royal Life Guards), Jesper Nielsen, was killed by an IED.
 * 6 June 2006, a Pfc Dennis Ove Hansen, was killed in a vehicle accident.
 * 23 September 2006, Lance-corporal from the Royal Danish Air Force, Kim Wadim, was killed by an IED.
 * 6 October 2006, a Private from the Jydske Dragonregiment, Martin Hjorth was killed in combat following an ambush on a Danish patrol.
 * 14 May 2007, Private Henrik Nøbbe from the Jydske Dragonregiment, was killed by small arms fire in an ambush in Al Harta.

Awards and decorations
Every Danish soldier who participated in Dancon/Irak received The Defence Medal with an inscription reading OIF (the abbreviation for Operation Iraqi Freedom).

The Defence Medal for participation in Iraq has also been awarded posthumously to all the fallen soldiers.

Furthermore, in May 2005, two Danish soldiers received The Defence Medal for heroic deeds during their tour of duty in Iraq. They were both from Den Kongelige Livgarde. One of the two soldiers, Sergeant Ole Gretlund, was awarded the medal when he saved the lives of Lithuanian soldiers in Al-Qurnah. The Lithuanian soldiers, who were under the command of DANCON/Irak, were pinned down in a firefight with insurgents. Gretlund saved the lives of the soldiers by his exemplary leadership and personal valour. After some hours, the insurgents withdrew their positions and the Lithuanian soldiers were evacuated with no Danish or Lithuanian casualties.

Another Danish soldier, Pfc. Thomas Huusmann of the Danish Army Reserve, was awarded the medal because he saved the lives of both Iraqis and Danes in two firefights in Iraq. During the first, he saved the lives of an officer, an interpreter, and a sheikh while under heavy fire from local tribes in Al-Qurnah. In the second firefight in August 2004, Huusmann protected ten Danish soldiers' lives while under assault rifle and RPG fire from insurgents at close quarters, by remaining calm and returning fire. There were no casualties among any of the coalition soldiers on either occasion.

Each commander of Dancon/Irak has been awarded the Order of the Dannebrog for his service to the Danish Army.

Soldiers who served under Dancon/Irak that have been killed or wounded in action have also been awarded The Medal for Killed and Wounded in Service.

title: Dancon/Irak


text:
Matt Redman

Matthew James Redman (born 14 February 1974) is an English Christian worship leader, singer-songwriter and author. Redman has released 16 albums, written 8 books, and helped start three church-plants. He is best known for his two-time Grammy Award-winning single, "10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord)". Co-written with Jonas Myrin, the single reached No. 1 on the US Billboard Christian Songs chart in 2012.

Early life
Redman was born on 14 February 1974, and raised in Watford, England. The family had moved to Chorleywood, a small commuter town, when he was around the age of two. His father took his own life when Matt was seven years old, and he and his brother were raised predominantly by his mother. His mother later remarried into an abusive relationship that took a great toll on the family. At the age of 10, he converted to Christianity after attending a mission service by Luis Palau at London's QPR football stadium and was encouraged by Mike Pilavachi, an Anglican church youth leader to lead worship in his teens.

Christian church leadership
Redman was converted to Christianity at the age of 10 and attended the Anglican church of St Andrew's Chorleywood, in Hertfordshire. It was there he learned to play guitar, and at the age of 20, he began leading worship services and released his first album. In 1993, Redman helped found alongside his pastor, Mike Pilavachi, Soul Survivor, a global Christian movement and yearly music festival aimed at youth. From 1994 until 2002, Redman led worship services for Soul Survivor Church, Watford.

In 2002, after a sabbatical in America to record Where Angels Fear to Tread, Redman moved to Brighton. In 2004 he and his wife joined a new church plant, The Point, in West Sussex, led by pastor Will Kemp.

In 2008, Redman, along with his wife Beth and their three children, moved to Atlanta, Georgia, to help plant Passion City Church with Louie Giglio and Chris Tomlin. In August 2010, they returned to the UK with their children.

Music
Matt recorded his first album, Wake Up My Soul, at ICC studios in January and February 1994. The album had an impressive line-up of Christian musicians including Iona's Mike Haughton, percussionist Martin Neil, Split Level's Adrian Thompson, Helen Burgess and Les Moir on bass, and was produced by Martin Smith.

In 2002, Redman co-wrote with his wife Beth, the 2002 Dove Award-winning "Blessed Be Your Name" (Worship Song of the Year) and the Grammy Award-nominated "Our God." Since then, Matt and Beth have co-created some of Redman's most successful songs including, "You Never Let Go", "Face Down" and "Let My Words Be Few". In February 2011, Redman joined Chris Tomlin, Louie Giglio, and Nathan and Christy Nockels at LIFT – A Worship Leader Collective where his 2011 live album, 10,000 Reasons, was recorded. On 28 July 2012, "10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord)", the title track of Redman's new album, topped the Billboard Christian Songs chart, where it stayed for 13 weeks. It was his first No. 1 hit on American Contemporary Christian radio. The single went on to win two Grammy Awards, for Best Contemporary Christian Music Song and Best Gospel/Contemporary Christian Music Performance and was certified Gold by RIAA in 2018. Matt has also won thirteen Gospel Music Association's Dove Awards.

The album's success came immediately after Matt Redman and LZ7, a Manchester-based Christian rap and urban music group, released the song "Twenty Seven Million" on 27 February 2012, to raise awareness for the anti-human trafficking movement. The record, charted on the UK Singles Chart reaching No. 12. Redman toured internationally with the band, to raise awareness for the cause through worship.

Redman's songs have been covered by a number of contemporary Christian music (CCM) artists including Matt Maher, Michael W. Smith, Jeremy Camp, Rebecca St. James, Chris Tomlin, David Crowder Band, Tree63, Kutless, Stellar Kart, and Hillsong United. He has regularly collaborates with other Christian musicians including Chris Tomlin and Tim Hughes.

In 2019, Redman announced he had signed with Integrity Music, with new music coming in late 2019, and a new album in 2020.

Writing
He has authored and edited multiple books on Christian worship, including The Unquenchable Worshipper and the book Facedown which accompanied the album of the same name. He and his wife co-wrote the book titled "Blessed Be Your Name" with the hopes to bring others to trust God and his goodness, no matter the circumstance.

Personal life
He married Beth Redman, who is also a songwriter and author. The couple has five children.

On 13 July 2023, following reports of allegations of abuse committed by Mike Pilavachi, Redman released a statement in which he identified himself as one of Pilavachi's alleged victims. In his statement, Redman said, "I have spent years trying to fully heal from my time at Soul Survivor". In April 2024 he released a short documentary entitled Let There Be Light in which he described his experience.

Video albums and DVDs

 * 2004: Facedown (DVD)

Appearances

 * Collaborations on Passion event albums
 * 2000: "Did You Feel The Mountains Tremble?" on The Road to OneDay
 * 2003: "O Come Let Us Adore Him" / "Come Let Us Return to the Lord" and "Blessed Be Your Name" on Sacred Revolution: Songs From OneDay 03
 * 2004: "Father Let Me Dedicate" / "Here Is Love" on Passion: Hymns Ancient and Modern
 * 2006: "You Never Let Go" on Everything Glorious
 * 2008: "God of Our Yesterdays" / "Shine" / "Dancing Generation" on God of This City
 * 2010: "You Alone Can Rescue" on Passion: Awakening
 * 2011: "Set Free" (jointly with Chris Tomlin) on Passion: Here for You
 * 2012: "Lay Me Down" (jointly with Chris Tomlin) / "10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord)" on Passion: White Flag
 * 2013: "Jesus, Only Jesus" / 	"Shout" (jointly with Chris Tomlin) on Passion: Let the Future Begin
 * 2014: "Mercy" / "Worthy" on Passion: Take It All

 * Appearances on Passion Live and Passion compilation albums
 * 2000: OneDay: Live
 * 2005: How Great Is Our God
 * 2006: The Best of Passion (So Far)
 * 2007: Live from Passion 07 Pt. 2

Awards
Grammy Award wins
 * 2013: Best Contemporary Christian Music Song – "10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord)"
 * 2013: Best Gospel/Contemporary Christian Music Performance – "10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord)"

Dove Award wins
 * 2005: Worship Song of the Year: "Blessed Be Your Name"
 * 2006: Praise and Worship Album of the Year: Blessed Be Your Name: The Songs of Matt Redman Vol. 1
 * 2007: Children's Music Album of the Year: VeggieTales Worship Songs
 * 2007: Special Event Album of the Year: Passion: Everything Glorious
 * 2009: Special Event Album of the Year: Passion: God of This City
 * 2011: Worship Song of the Year – TIE: "Our God"
 * 2011: Special Event Album of the Year: Passion: Awakening
 * 2013: Song of the Year: "10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord)"
 * 2013: Contemporary Christian Performance of the Year: "10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord)"
 * 2013: Songwriter of the Year

Church of England
 * 2016: Cranmer Award for Worship, "for his contribution to the worship life of the Church"

Published books

 * The Unquenchable Worshipper (2001)
 * Where Angels Fear to Tread (2002)
 * The Heart of Worship Files (2003)
 * Facedown (2004)
 * Inside Out Worship (2005)
 * Blessed Be Your Name (with Beth Redman) (2005)
 * Mirror Ball (2011)
 * 10,000 Reasons: Stories of Faith, Hope, and Thankfulness Inspired by the Worship Anthem (with Craig Borlase) (2017)

title: Matt Redman


text: Talk:DearS

title: Talk:DearS


text:
Talk:Hansel and Gretel

Moved image
I moved this image here: it adds no information to Hansel and gretel. Perhaps at Eating disorder? --Wetman 02:14, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Poor Jacob! Poor Wilhelm!
Re DIFFERENCE. Well, maybe in Bulgaria the story is told according to the plot outlined in the article. But this is not, DEFINITELY NOT, the story that Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm have written. Imagine an article on Hamlet without a mention of any foul deed or even the fact that it is a play.

It may also be of interest to the reader that in Switzerland Ovid is considered to have written the Metamorphoses. Please note: WRITTEN, not "collected". Of course, even in Switzerland some people can be found who hold forth instead that Ovid "collected" the Metamorphoses and that the "original" material was less "sanitized" and had an other "meaning" et cetera et cetera et

Original Version?
The secion titled "Analysis" is extremely confusing and unclear. It claims that the Grimm version is sanitised, and mentions that in the medieval version, Hansel and Gretel are left in the woods to die or disappear, but this is virtually exactly what the Plot Synopsis section says happens. Unless of course the original version simply goes "Hansel and Gretel were taken out into the woods and abandoned. They starved to death.  The End." If not, the article might benefit from explaining how it is sanitised. Reveilled 22:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I clarified a bit. It's a sanitized yes. The story arose out of the very real and horrific practice of leaving babies and children to die of exposure outside when there was not enough food, which was the origin of the original tale, not exactly what the BG version focuses on. -- Stbalbach 23:55, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I still don't understand. The plot synopsis says "Fearing starvation, the wood cutter's wife—the children's step-mother—convinces him to lead the children into the forest, and abandon them there", and the analysis claims it is a sanitised version because "in reality children were often left in the woods to die or disappear because no one could feed them in times of strife".  Perhaps it is the language making this confusing, but the use of "sanitised" to me suggests cleaning an earlier story, not that it is just a fairytale version of a common occurrence.  Thus, when I read the Analysis section, it seems to tell me that there is a medieval version of the story which was sanitised for 19th century Middle-class readers.  Given that it also mentions the practice of infanticide, which is the plan of the step-mother in the Grimm version, I do not understand particularly how this has been sanitised, as opposed to dramatised, unless in the medieval, unsanitised version, Hansel and Gretel die of starvation. Reveilled 14:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Reveilled is right. At the bottom it makes out that the abandonment was left out to sanitize the story, yet the synopsis at the top does include the abandonment. Thus it hasn't been sanitized. 'Sanitized' would be a version in which the kids simply got lost while taking a walk in the forest, which is not the version given in the article.
 * Edit: Oh, I understand. It's that because the practice no longer continues, at least in the western world, that aspect of the story no longer has the same cultural significance, not that it's been removed. Noneofyourbusiness 18:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This version is not the original, the original was titled Roland and May-bird somehow its gotten confused with Hansel and Gretel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.170.22 (talk) 20:05, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

spoiler tag
The German Wikipedia has done away with the spoiler tag entirely. Gone. On the English Wikipedia, the spoiler tag remains very controversial and is not anywhere close to policy, or even official recommendation. The basic problem is this: Any article dealing with a story: (movie, book, fairytale, etc..) should have a spoiler tag, because encyclopedia articles by design and purpose spoil stories. Thus, the spoil tag is redundant and self-evident. Encyclopedia's spoil, that is what they do. If you don't want to spoil the story, don't read an encyclopedia article about the story! This argument is so persuasive and evident that the worlds second biggest Wikipedia banned use of the spoiler tag entirely. The English wikipedia has not been able to achieve consensus on this issue to date, but the spoiler tag remains very controversial. IMO I won't fight about it in certain cases, but articles that clearly are designed to spoil (the section heading is "Plot synopsis"!) it's really taking what is already a controversial tag too far. -- Stbalbach 00:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I actually like it, but putting it on an article about such a short story seems kind of silly. Brutannica 22:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Removed again and left edit note. If someone feels strongly about adding it I'll open it up for a straw poll and RfC it. -- Stbalbach 15:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Fairy tales are definitely in the public domain, so a spoiler tag is probably not necessary.

Another version
There's another tale that ressembles hansel & gretel and it's told in the Extremadura region of Spain. It's called "the Stepmother" (La Madrastra) and it's also about two parents that want to abandon their children at the forest, but there isn't any witch or bread house. Maybe I could write the article about it someday...

Movie/TV Version - Help!
I'm trying to track down a Hansel and Gretel I saw on tv in the early 90's. The witch's house is all white and the walls are filled with colorful goo and the chairs and tables - everything is white but filled with bright colored edidble goo. The kids have a step mother and eat nasty green blobs. Does anyone know what this is? 128.205.136.233 20:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

ㄴWould you mean the version by Tim Burton? 112.152.28.175 (talk) 06:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism
I reverted a bunch of vandalism but there is still a paragraph in the plot synopsis that looks bogus. If someone familiar with the page could check it over, that would be good. —tedp 14:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Notable derivatives?
Isn't that usually called Trivia? I mean, Buffy the Vampire Slayer bases an episode from an old Fairy Tale, isn't really notable. Its Trivia.

Notable derivatives would be various versions found long ago, like BZ(Bruno Zollinger) mentioned. 04:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Of course I agree that Buffy is not notable, because it is a minor derivative and not a primary adaptation. But notability has nothing to do with age, a common misconception on Wikipedia that only "old" pop culture is notable. -- Stbalbach 13:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Oh. I was thinking of the original source, and how it popped up in times of old, differant nations altering the story, and no one entirely certain which was the original form.  Seeing how folktales evolved seems differant to me than modern day writers using old stories in the place of new ideas.  But yes, the age of anything is irrelevant.  I believe shows like the Simpsons do parodies of everything new and old, that easier than coming up with new ideas. Dream Focus 03:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The real story?
Am I the only who has ever heard of the real story it's based on? We learned at school that in I think 2005 the house of the which was discovered in germany. The real story was different Hans and Grietje were cake and pie makers but they wanted the recepee of an old woman in the woods. They sued her as which couple of times but she was cleared of all charges(documents exist) finally they formed a mob and burned the house with the woman in it. The recepee was found in her oven in 2005 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.200.70.173 (talk • contribs)
 * Got a citation for this? You might be thinking of Weinstein's Hoodwinked. I wouldn't be surprised if this were part of the plot to the film's sequel, as it is supposed to involve H and G. I'll be glad to add this interpretation to the article once you can show that it is verifiable. (Oh, and new comments go at the bottom of the talk page.) --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 15:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The German Wikipedia article lists this "real" version of the story in its parody section. There seems to be a book by illustrator and comic book writer Hans Traxler: "Die Wahrheit über Hänsel und Gretel" (1st ed. 1963). Apparently the story originates from there - a tale of a respectable baker woman Katharina Schraderin brutally murdered by a jealous ex-lover Hans and his sister Grete due to a dispute over a gingerbread recipe. It's a science satire of sorts, about a bloke who discovers this amazing truth through scientific method, and it is so well-written that it has apparently become an urban legend. I've seen the story cited as a "truth" in a gingerbread cookbook myself. Traxler seems to be a renowned caricaturist and parodist in Germany. This is what I got out of the article with my very limited understanding of German... I don't think this variation should be mentioned at all in the main article, unless in a separate Parody section?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.29.196.160 (talk) 02:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, most Wikipedia articles on works of fiction have a plot summary. Good point.  Please be sure to check out WP:FICT, associated guidelines and especially the guidance at WP:PLOTSUM, and help us write one!  Thanks.  —Aladdin Sane (talk) 21:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I've added a brief plot summary from the version of the story here: it seems like older versions of this page did have a plot summary but I don't know what's happened to them Ossie 10:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ossiemanners (talk • contribs)

This isn't originally Hansel and Gretel but Roland and May-bird. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.170.22 (talk) 20:02, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Rather than fanciful suggestions that this was a prophecy of the third reich (is Maria Tatar supposed to be an academic writer?), surely the great famine of 1315-1317 is a far more logical and likely source for this legend. Yet it hasn't even been referred to so far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 00:20, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Adaptations
According to the MOS the adaptations section in an article about fiction is restricted to dramatic adaptations such as movies, ballets, operas, musicals, cartoons, plays, etc. Books, games, toys, dolls, and other formats are not entered in this section and WP discourages trivia and "In popular culture" sections so don't enter all this stuff. Additionally, anything in the adaptations section MUST be cited to a reliable source. This eliminates imdb and similar sites because they are user-created (like WP) and therefore considered unreliable. SurLaLune and similar sites are not reliable sources either because they are " self-created" (Heidi Anne Heiner) and have no editorial oversight or review. Heiner simply enters what she prefers and there's no one reviewing it. Don't cite anything to SurLaLune. It's not necessary to list every single adaptation of Hansel and Gretel. Most are forgettable tv productions or films. WP is not a repository of this stuff. The only adaptation here of any significance is the opera and this can be sited to many reliable sources. Let's clean the adaptations section out and get rid of this stuff. This stuff is unsourced and that's one reason to get rid of it. Most of it can never be cited to reliable sources. Let's get rid of it and give the article a professional appearance. Let's stop collecting this trivia stuff. LMD908jo (talk) 22:10, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ideally, this sort of stuff should be preserved in another outlet when it's removed from Wikipedia. Any ideas? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 02:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Messed up text with japanese text parts
" Their hostess is a "wicked witch" who is crimes professor tohoku university form tokyo university uchida yoshichika emeritus yoshikazu - matsushita kiyoo with tohoku university fujita kinnichiro in architectures doing crimes killing houses truth human being rights who waylays children to cook and eat them. "wicked witch" has number +81 246=1000-754 3776-4= (0)43, +81 247-8101F (0)43,　+81 247-8168 (0)43, 080-1810-7052 +81 . in japan not she, it is he ."

- As much as I've tried I cannot make out what the original text was supposed to contain here. I thought about calling one of these numbers, but not sure if the person on line could help me out with it.

Copy and paste can be hell.

Anyone in for re-writing the messed up text part, otherwise I'll try to figure out a replacement text over the next few days. (Shibirian (talk) 16:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC))

the following summary
I don't understand this sentence: "The following summary is based on an 1853 anonymous translation by Iona and Peter Opie in 1972." Is the translation anonymous from 1853 or by the Opies in 1972? Or is it the summary of the anonymous translation that's by the Opie's in 1972? If that's the case, then it ought to be rewritten rather than directly copied into a wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.189.179 (talk) 22:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Reverted back to September 1st 2014 revision
The edits made by user with IP ending in 143, and those built upon it, contained large pieces of missing text as well as poor grammar and missing punctuation. Dominicanpapi82 (talk) 18:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Some very minor variations to the story.
I first heard this story from my German grandmother, now more than 50 years ago. As a result, i have done some research and found the following.

1. Although the English rendition of various European fairytales talks about "gingerbread", in most European versions - particularly Eastern European ones, the building material of choice is actually honyebread.

2. A fabulous adornment of the house is that it stands on four chicken legs. Whether this means that the house can actually move, or at least be moved, I have been unable to determine.

Keep or remove the quotes around fairy tale titles, or exchange them for italics?
It's the first time I've seen this, and the See also section in particular looks odd to me. I clicked on one of those links, and the linked article didn't have the quotes at all. If there should be some formatting change for the titles, would italics be better? Sorry all I can do is bring this up for others to figure out. Thanks! --Geekdiva (talk) 08:34, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Why is infobox for a 1996 Puffin Book?
Why does the infobox have the details of one single modern edition of this story, publication date as 1996 and the ISBN for a very modern book again published in 1996, unknown redlinked author and Puffin Books as the publisher? This article is meant to be about the classic story/fairy tale, in many forms including the 200 year old Brothers Grim version. The article is not about one modern edition/publication of said story, so that shouldn't be in the infobox. By all means a notable modern edition can be mentioned in the article somewhere but not the main infobox. Plus what is so important about the 1996 Puffin version above all others, I would imagine the story has been published many many times, it was popular when I was a child before 1996.  Carl wev   10:23, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

 * My thoughts exactly!--ChemWarfare (talk) 03:53, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Similarity to Native American Legend about deserted children
in the story presented here: https://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheDesertedChildren-GrosVentre.html and here: http://www.indianmythology.org/assiniboin/deseerted_children.htm there are several notable similarities such as the brother and sister pair, the cannibalistic witch/old woman, and the survival of the children through cleverness. On the other hand, there are also some pretty big differences such as the focus on vengeance against the family that abandoned them and the sudden, unexplained magic powers of the younger brother. Is this notable enough to include in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.95.38 (talk) 20:19, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Grammar here?
I have a question about this sentence: "According to folklorist Jack Zipes, the tale celebrates the symbolic order of the patriarchal home, seen as a haven protected from the dangerous characters that threaten the lives of children outside, while it systematically denigrates the adult female characters, which are seemingly intertwined between each other."

What is being intertwined? I can't tell if this sentence is trying to say that the adult female characters are intertwined (in which case, I would substitute "who" for the "which" there), or whether the intertwining is supposed to be between two themes: The order of the patriarchal home and the systematic denigration of the adult female characters. Novellasyes (talk) 17:47, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hansel and Gretel


text: User talk:138.29.50.226

title: User talk:138.29.50.226


text: User talk:24.29.150.15

title: User talk:24.29.150.15


text:
User talk:Anyathe

Movie images in Tolkien articles
I'm not sure it is necessarily a good idea to use movie images for Tolkien characters. The movie images are pervasive enough—the articles are about the characters, who may not have been portrayed accurate in the films. Then there's the copyright status of the images—they may be fair use, but it's somewhat ambiguous, I think. -Aranel (" Sarah ") 02:15, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image source/licensing for Image:Boyd2.jpg
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Boyd Image
I see that you didn't copyright your image, they were just on my case about that a day ago, anyways try to give me the source of where you found your image, exact webpage and I'll do the copyright template and the rest so they won't delete it because its a really good image. Just swing it by my talkpage if you get a chance. Thanks! User: Patman2648 talk 19:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Non-free use disputed for Image:Eowyn2.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Goodbye45.jpg
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If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot (talk) 23:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use Image:Faramir2.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Faramir2.jpg. I noticed the description page specifies that the media is being used under a claim of fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first non-free content criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed media could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this media is not replaceable, please:

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If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified how these images fully satisfy our non-free content criteria. You can find a list of description pages you have edited by clicking on [ this link]. Note that even if you follow steps 1 and 2 above, non-free media which could be replaced by freely licensed alternatives will be deleted 2 days after this notification (7 days if uploaded before 13 July 2006), per our non-free content policy. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Closedmouth (talk) 07:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Anyathe