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Talk:Bánh mì

Add more Banh Mi variant descriptions, pictures?
There are only pictures of the classic sandwhich, i'm trying to find more dishes that fall within the "Banh mi" format. Search: "How many types of Banh mi are there in Danang? (P.1)" for some examples. Maybe we could add a list of major Banh mi varieties with pictures? if anyone can find pictures that is. This article is like a noodle soup article that only lists pho, you know? Banh mi is a blanket term for sandwich. varieties so far: banh mi thit cha, classic thit nguoi, really famous banh mi thit nuong, and banh mi que. Thanks guys. If any of you other foodies find any info, post to this thread. Also, maybe someone can do the same for the goi cuon, salad roll section, because theres a lot of famous variants of that dish too. Eomhrf (talk) 04:05, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Random comments
Just a quick note to talk about the correctness of Bánh mì trứng as being the sandwich w/ scrambled egg, the version I had repeatedly in Vietnam in October of 2009 was called Bánh mì Op la. They also do a very light scramble compared to the common American version in which the yolk and white are mixed completely before cooking. Here the yellow and white are still separate colors for the most part, just conjoined in one delicious mass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.25.11.254 (talk) 20:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Getitright 11:20, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe a native speaker should edit this. I'm a native speaker living in Australia and I call it bánh mì thịt. I just came back from Vietnam and the signs on the shops say bánh mì thịt. Bánh mì just means bread. If you don't believe me search 'bread' then navigate to the Vietnamese translation wiki (Tiếng Việt). Xíu mại also isn't crushed pork meatballs, and what the heck is the eggs done sunny side up for breakfast comment doing in this article? For one, Vietnamese people call the eggs a 'western breakfast', so it's not even Vietnamese cuisine. For two, it's not even a sandwich.

There are some differences in pre-war and post war Vietnamese, yes, but saying "To some overseas Vietnamese, bánh mì can also mean bread" clearly shows a lack of understanding of the language. If you understood anything about the Vietnamese culture, you'd realise our language is implicit and that we never say anything explicitly in conversation, which is why you can ask someone in Vietnamese "Ăn ổ bánh mì không?", literally "Eat loaf bread no?", and they would understand that you are asking "Would you like to eat a bánh mì thịt sandwich?" and not to consume an entire loaf of bread with no contents. However, when one teaches vocabulary or in this case a wikipedia entry, explicitness is required for clarity. This is why a lot of the previous commenters noted they have never heard it referred to as anything else in conversation (unless of course it was referred to as such by other naive English speakers). And as the previous person pointed out, just like in English, we also call it by brand name. Like asking for a Kleenex.

Please fix this or at least ađd a note to say it's inaccurate. I'm sick of non-Vietnamese speakers telling me I'm wrong because wiki says differently.

Oh and another thing, don't call it a bánh mì sandwich either. The average Vietnamese person uses this term to describe the well known sandwich in the western world - that is two slices of bread with filling inside. We just use the words bánh mì to describe any dish that has bread in it. Like bread an' butter puđding.

 * Perhaps in some places the signs say bánh mì thịt, but for example in Toronto, they just say "bánh mì".

 * It's my understanding that "bánh mì" means bread or bun, as well as sandwich, in the same way that "baguette" in French, "broodje" in Dutch, or "brotchen" in German does. You know by the context, which one is meant. So no, no-one is going to be adding a note to say it's inaccurate, no matter how sick you are of being told you're wrong. That would be because, you're wrong.

 * by the way using an insulting tone and complaining that people know nothing of vietnamese culture, and then saying "please fix this" is not going to get you very far.

 * Also, "banh mi sandwich" is a perfectly ok term for an english speaking audience, meaning "a type of sandwich, known in the vietnamese language as bánh mì". Please also see the reference I added to the "Banh Mi Sandwich" recipe, which includes some detailed history, written by Vietnamese food expert and journalist Andrea Nguyen.

 * IamNotU (talk) 01:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

___________________________

Great sandwiches, here in Seattle you can get them some places for $1.50. Much healthier option than a hamburger

As far as I know, my family calls it Bánh mì Ba Le (with a dot underneath the e). Bánh mì is just the vietnamese word for "Bread".

Ba Le is one of the companies that make Bánh mì, but you can use either one.

All I'm saying is that the word Bánh mì can be used to mean other kinds of sandwiches than the one mentioned here.

I can vouch for that. The person above me is right Starfox Pilot 18:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard anybody call it anyting other Banh Mi, unless they were talking about a specific type of banh mi. And I've never heard banh mi used to refer to any other type of sandwich. Also, no mention of Bo (the butter / mayo-esque spread) in this article? Serpentes 08:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I'll revouch for the OP. I once ordered (something like) "chicken bánh mì" at a Vietnamese restaurant in Brooklyn and was surprised to get a curry and a hunk of bread. Bánh mì definitely does not exclusively refer to a particular kind of sandwich. Clconway 20:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Per the previous user comments, perhaps a disambiguation and/or change of title to "Bahn Mi sandwich" is in order? The situation with Banh Mi appears similar to the situation with cous-cous - in that the term may be used to simply refer to the plain, staple ingredient (cous-cous / bread) or any number of often elaborate dishes which include the same as an ingredient. In any event, good article on a fantastic sandwich! Drlegendre (talk) 14:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Availability
The following section strikes me as silly. The bottom line is: find a Vietnamese community anywhere in the world and you're likely to find a bánh mì shop. Clconway 20:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

 * "The sandwich can be found in small bánh mì shops around the world: in Saigon and throughout Vietnam; in the 13th district of Paris; various Vietnamese communities in Australia including Cabramatta and Footscray; and in many Vietnamese American communities throughout the United States, where Vietnamese food is available in almost every major city. In Canada, Vietnamese sandwiches are available in major cities like Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg and anywhere else featuring diverse cultures. Bánh mì are served (often to-go) everywhere from humble mom-and-pop joints to trendy urban bistros."

The following is the same deal as above. This is ridiculous: you can get these sandwiches all over the place. We don't list every chain that sells fried chicken... Clconway 21:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

 * "Bánh mì is generally served in small shops and at some phở noodle eateries. Chains offering bánh mì in California include Ba-Le Sandwiches, and Saigon Sandwiches. Lee's Sandwiches operates restaurants in California, Arizona, Oklahoma, and Texas. Several modern chains offer traditional Vietnamese bánh mì and Western-style baguette sandwiches. Mr. Baguette, a popular bánh mì café located in the Los Angeles suburb of Rosemead, California, is planning to expand to other areas in California. BanhMiBistro is the latest chain of gourmet banh mi stores originated from Ho Chi Minh City Vietnam featuring daily fresh-baked bread in its stores. Bánh mì was featured in San Jose in the 2002 PBS documentary Sandwiches That You Will Like."

 * "In Canada Nguyen Huong has four locations in Toronto serving banh mi."

American nicknames
Can someone explain why this article should include text on the localised American names for banh mi? That's not encyclopaedia material. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.130.202.205 (talk) 03:11, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Regional Variations and Changes
I'm starting to notice that the style and recipe are changing, or there may be regional differences. Like at Mr. Baguette, I got a vegetarian one and it had the fake ham, American cheese, a pickle on the side, a hot yellow pepper on the side, and a mustard packet. Jalapeno and cilantro were at a condiment stand. It tasted fine, but the ingredients were unexpected. Also, in recipes online, everyone uses mayo. In the San Francisco shops, some used mayo and butter. I think Ba Le uses butter too. In the past, they seemed to be less full of fillings. Anyway, while there are variations in any kind of food, as this food becomes more widespread, and as the communities where they do business change, the food changes.

Yes, I know this is obvious, but I think it's important to track some changes. Right now, in the Los Angeles area, we're seeing the end of the combination Greek-Hamburger-Mexican-Pastrami-Teriyaki restaurant. It was a product of the LA eastside culture, and developed from the 1940s to the 1980s. Today, it's morphed into a Hamburger-Mexican restaurant, with fried chicken and Mexican charbroiled chicken, and the now ubiquitous breakfast burrito. The Hawaiian lunch plate is also big here, but with a shrinking islander population, it's morphing into something else that incorporates Chinese fast food, and is losing some signature dishes like musubi, lomi, and chili rice. This reflects changing populations and customers.

Likewise, you may be able to track changes to this dish as Vietnamese communities formed in specific cities like Houston, New Orleans, Westminister, Santa Ana, Rosemead, San Francisco, Oakland, Boston, etc.  99.93.192.139 (talk) 06:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

 * I think you are suggesting we conduct original research and include it in this article. While it could be an interesting project, it wouldn't belong on Wikipedia until it was published in a separate reliable source. Joja  lozzo  15:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Change title and clean up definition?
I think this article is flawed; in English, banh mi is written without accents, and refers to a style of sandwich, not bread. I do understand that the English word banh mi comes from the Vietnamese bánh mì, which means bread, but that discussion seems more appropriate for a etymological dictionary than a wikipedia page. The first paragraph sentence "It is sometimes metonymous with ..." is silly, it's not a metonym, it's just a word that has a different meaning in English than Vietnamese.

So I think we should change this article to remove the accents, and remove the discussion of the bread meaning, and instead use the phrase as it is normally used in English, to mean a type of sandwich. It will be clearer, more correct, and remove the dictionary aspect of the entry.

Shall I proceed? If you disagree, tell me why please.

2620:0:1004:A:28FD:7415:C305:3E3 (talk) 16:42, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

 * I thoroughly agree, assuming English speakers elsewhere mirror the usage in the U.S, where English speakers do not use "banh mi" to mean "bread". If it's used to mean that in Vietnamese, then that info belongs in the etymology section, but shouldn't be part of the definition. The term in English refers to the baguette-based sandwich, period.

 * On top of that, we are saying that the phrase consists of ordinary Vietnamese vocabulary wordsand then we say immediately after that it's from French. It can't be both, so which is it? Largoplazo (talk) 15:51, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

 * Bánh mì means either "bread" or "sandwich" in Vietnamese. In context, it can imply the Saigon style of sandwich. English just happened to borrow one sense of bánh mì without borrowing the other. The closest analogy I can think of is the muffuletta. Pain de mie is a provably false etymology. It was inserted by someone who didn't bother citing a source or reading the surrounding text. Since various people keep inserting it into this article, it seems to be popular enough that I've added a good, explicit debunking in the article. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 07:21, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

 * I attempted to rewrite the first half of the article to focus on the sandwich, since that's the main sense that English speakers need to know about. I also added a stub "Bread" section, taking inspiration from Muffuletta. There's still a lot of repetition in the article that impairs comprehension, but I think it's a start in the right direction. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 16:45, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Colonial history
This article mentions a couple of times the French influence in banh mi, but it might be productive to have a section on colonial influence on the sandwich and how its consumption is a post-colonial act? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anishapganguly (talk • contribs) 19:58, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

spelling

 * mì (wheat, also spelt mỳ in northern Vietnam).

The alternate spelling was added on October 30, and changed 11 hours later (by someone in Vietnam with no other edits) to

 * mì (wheat, also spelt mì in northern Vietnam).

making it redundant. I know nothing of the language, so I won't change it back. —Tamfang (talk) 20:10, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 7 February 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:UE, current and previously found consensus Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ Talk 18:17, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Bánh mì → Banh mi – In English we wouldn't normally use the diacritics from the Vietnamese script for this. In particular, see Google ngram's display at https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=banh+mi%2Cb%C3%A1nh+m%C3%AC&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cbanh%20mi%3B%2Cc0. In Google's English book corpus, there appear to be no uses of the phrase with the diacritics. I'm not sure this is at all controversial, but I wasn't sure about common practice so I've brought it up for discussion just in case. Largoplazo (talk) 16:18, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose per long-established consensus. Yes this is controversial. We had a c-banned user trying to make English names out of the entire Vietnam-related article corpus a few years back. There's no need to target one language (or even one bread) for de-Unicode-ing. Apart from anything English recipe books use the tones, see Amazon.com: Minnesota Lunch: From Pasties to Bánh mì (2011) or Kathy Strahs The Ultimate Panini Press Cookbook (2013) "Vietnamese bánh mì sandwiches first began hitting the mainstream foodie consciousness, my husband must have sought out every bánh mì shop (and there are a lot of them) within a 20-mile radius, to taste what all the hype over a $3 sandwich was about." or Suzanne Pfefferle Vietnamese Cuisine in New Orleans (2014) "But even here, bánh mì sandwiches are prepared on light riceflour baguettes, rather than the “French” bread used for New Orleans' renowned po' boys. But the crisp bánh mì baguettes create a similar effect." and so on... In ictu oculi (talk) 18:44, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting that this decision be based on a cherry-picked sample of size 2? Well, I have a sample of size 3 that supports me, so I win!!!
 * Seriously, now: Do you think your two examples override Google's entire corpus of books in English? (I acknowledge that the examples you've provided demonstrate that Google Books isn't 100% inclusive of all literature. However, it's a sample size greater than 2. Or 3.) I was hoping that whoever participated in this discussion would couch it either in terms of either what Wikipedia says to do or in terms of what's generally found in real life. Not "Here are two examples that use accents, therefore too bad for you." Largoplazo (talk) 18:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * By the way, "Hell, no" is also not a productive argument. Largoplazo (talk) 18:56, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, I'm not "targeting" anything. I was dealing with this one article, and the question came to my mind, so I pursued it. Largoplazo (talk) 18:58, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but the "hell no" is because the entire corpus of the encyclopedia is based on using sources fit for purpose, which is why we have full Unicode titles and copy for everything from Maltese to Latvian, including Vietnamese. And the question why this article? So I ask you, why remove Vietnamese from this article and not from every article in Category:Vietnamese cuisine? Or indeed every article in the Vietnamese article corpus? Or in fact why not from Czech place names or Spanish bios? In ictu oculi (talk) 19:16, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Would you calm down? It was a frickin' question. If my question is already covered by a consensus that has been reached, then a constructive response would have been, "There's already been a general consensus for topics in (small-c) category X that we prefer the names with diacritics intact. See Wikipedia talk:(sample discussion) if you're interested in the details." (X could be Articles Related to Vietnam or Articles About Classical Musicians or whatever.) The hysterical, hyperconfrontational responsewell, that's the one you gave me. Completely out of line. Largoplazo (talk) 20:45, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * In addition, if every article at Category:Vietnamese cuisine has the diacritics because a consensus was reached to make them that way consistently, that's one thing. If there has been no such consensus and your argument is, "It has to be OK to have the diacritics, because look at all the articles that already do", then that could be a matter of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Without details, I don't know, because your responses have been long on handwaving and short on actual explanations rooted in policy, guidelines, and consensus. Largoplazo (talk) 20:50, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It makes a difference whether a word or phrase is considered to have been fully absorbed into English. In any event, see WP:DIACRITICS and WP:ESTABLISHED. "The policy on using common names and on foreign names does not prohibit the use of modified letters, if they are used in the common name as verified by reliable sources." I would guess that the common name for banh mi is more likely to fall [italics mine] No mention is made of needing to conform to the treatment of words from the same field of interest. If it's found that the common name among English speakers for beef noodle soup is "pho", it's immaterial that English speakers probably don't have an adopted diacritic-free common name for mực rang muối. It seems to me, anyway, that the degree of absorption of "banh mi" into English is much more similar to that of "pho" than that of "mực rang muối". Largoplazo (talk) 21:19, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

 * Heck yes!. If and when diacritic use for a particular term can be shown to dominate in English reliable sources about the topic at issue, then we should use them as well. But not until then. A few cherry-picked examples hardly demonstrates dominance. --В²C ☎ 00:52, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

 * Oppose. Per WP:UE, the title should either be at the English name (Vietnamese baguette/Vietnamese po' boy) or the Vietnamese name, whichever is more common and/or is more precise. Removing diacritics does not make it English and Wikipedia does not face the technical or style manual limitations that require removal of diacritics.  —  AjaxSmack  04:37, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I would expect that some would describe banh mi as a Vietnamese po' boy or baguette sandwich for the benefit of someone who doesn't already know what one is, but does anybody really call them either of those? Also, it seems to me that Wikipedia's technical limits aren't the point so much as the means of the average English writer, no? After all, the article about 叉燒 is at Char siu, not 叉燒, even though Wikipedia has the technical ability to render "叉燒". Largoplazo (talk) 08:29, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * That is because Lech Wałęsa uses the Unicode Latin font wheras ኃይለ ሥላሴ does not use the Unicode Latin font. Therefore a comparison between Lech Wałęsa which uses the Unicode Latin font wheras ኃይለ ሥላሴ does not, fails to address why en.wp uses Lech Wałęsa but not ኃይለ ሥላሴ. The difference between a Latin alphabet and a non-Latin alphabet should be visible to the naked eye. It is yes. So there is your answer. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:43, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * From the fact X and Y are different, it doesn't follow that because Z applies to X, Z automatically doesn't apply to Y. So your answer is inadequate. You didn't even bother answering my point, "Also, it seems to me that Wikipedia's technical limits aren't the point so much as the means of the average English writer, no?" Largoplazo (talk) 18:04, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * X and Y are both Latin alphabet. Lech Wałęsa and ኃይለ ሥላሴ are not both Latin alphabet.  Char siu and 叉燒 are not both Latin alphabet. Bánh mì and croissant are both Latin alphabet. You asked "why the article about 叉燒 is at Char siu, not 叉燒, even though Wikipedia has the technical ability to render "叉燒"," and I answer that is because Lech Wałęsa uses the Unicode Latin font wheras ኃይለ ሥላሴ does not use the Unicode Latin font. Your answer is that 叉燒 is not Latin alphabet, so the article is at Char siu. Does this answer the question, '"why the article about 叉燒 is at Char siu, not 叉燒, even though Wikipedia has the technical ability to render "叉燒","'? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:13, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't ask why char siu is at char siu and not 叉燒. Furthermore, you're attempting to respond to my indication of the fallacy in your previous argument by committing the same fallacy again. Largoplazo (talk) 18:17, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Getting back to WP:UE, "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, Delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively)." I postulate that the anglicized form "banh mi" predominates in English language reliable sources. It predominates over "bánh mì". It certainly predominates over such descriptions as "Vietnamese baguette" and "Vietnamese po' boy". Let's check Google's corpus of books in English for those latter terms, shall we? https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=b%C3%A1nh+m%C3%AC%2Cbanh+mi%2CVietnamese+baguette%2CVietnamese+po%27+boy&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cbanh%20mi%3B%2Cc0 Largoplazo (talk) 18:10, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "Vietnamese po' boy" was poorly chosen anyway, because ov er 99.5% of the Google Books hit count for "vietnamese po boy" apparently associate that term with New Orleans. Alternative terminology essentially restricted to New Orleans is hardly going to be the common name of a thing in English. Largoplazo (talk) 18:21, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Why did you raise 叉燒 is at Char siu, not 叉燒 if you were not interested in the subject? I'm sorry I really can't be bothered, the entire encyclopedia is Unicode. That's how many years of long discussion have left it. If you want to know more then look in the archives. The corpus of Vietnamese articles is the way it is, in Unicode, just like every other Latin language as the result of following the best sources as AjaxSmack explained above. We don't follow ASCII sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:42, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Every single thing you just wrote is a non sequitur or wrong.
 * I raised char siu for the reason that ought to be clear, as a basis for comparison for the topic we're discussing here, banh mi. I did not raise it because I was questioning the placement of char siu. And, when I pointed out that that wasn't why I raised it, I was not then indicating a lack of interest in that subject. But, then I never did indicate an interest in that subject, it was an arbitrary example for comparison, as a I said, for banh mi. The imprecision with which you keep interpreting what I've written is mindblowing. The result is that, over and over, you respond to things I didn't say while failing to respond cogently to what I did say. This is nonproductive.
 * I understand perfectly well that this encyclopedia is written in Unicode (of which diacritic-free characters are a subsetyou talk as though the two are mutually exclusive). But simply pointing out that accented characters are available by no means leads automatically to the conclusion that the accented version is the version under which Wikipedia guidelines says we should have articles. In fact, WP:UE expressly says that isn't true. So, unless you believe that non sequiturs are a sound method for advancing your position, it is in your best interest not to bring up again the non sequitur that these accented characters can be used on Wikipedia.
 * Your third sentence makes no sense.
 * Your fourth sentence amounts to "Just believe my claims uncritically even though I've given you ample reason not to and my claims are manifestly not completely in accord with the guidelines you've already cited. I have no intention of actually pointing you to sources that back me up, I'm just going to wave my hands in their general direction. This is because, when someone begins a conversation with, 'Can someone show me whether there is any guidance on ...', an appropriate response is 'Find it yourself, and if you don't believe that it's there just because I've said so, I'm going to act really, really put out.'"
 * Sentence 5: AjaxSmack pointed to WP:UE and, as I've just pointed out to you, it doesn't say what AjaxSmack said it does. And AjaxSmack's waving at fake "common names" like "Vietnamese po' boy" didn't help make their case.
 * Then we come to your final sentence, "We don't follow ASCII sources." WP:UE says we do, under the circumstances it spells out. As a prime example, as I already pointed out, Pho does not have diacritics in its title. Nor does Hanoi. Nor Ho Chi Minh. Nor Vietnam. So you're wrong. And you will be as long as you fail to take into consideration the very crux of WP:UE, the question of whether a term is considered to have become anglicized or not. I'm interested to know whether there's a consensus here over whether "banh mi" can be considered to have become anglicized. In the absence of that determination, no one can determine the conclusion that WP:UE would have us reach. But continuing to bring up Wikipedia's capabilities doesn't override that. Bringing up handling of the terms of other but less commonly known Vietnamese dishes whose names cannot be said by anybody to have become anglicized also doesn't override that.
 * I'm really hoping to get some input here from people who are familiar with specific discussions that have reached consensus conclusions that are applicable here, rather than obvious misinterpretations and misapplications of guidelines, who don't imagine that two counterexamples overrides the entirety of the literature, and who discuss matters like this coolly and rationally instead of with the sort of sabre-rattling and dramatic generalizations that have been the hallmarks of your entire contribution here from your very first pair of words. Largoplazo (talk) 20:32, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The irony is that I don't have a strong feeling one way or another myself. I had an initial inclination, then I checked myself and brought the question here. But I do feel strongly about (a) being attacked for no reason and (b) being expected to respond amenably to a litany of baseless rationales, overgeneralizations, and non sequiturs. Largoplazo (talk) 21:05, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Inconsistent article
The first paragraph defines "Bánh mì" primarily as the bread. The infobox defines it primarily as the sandwich. The infobox is correct. In English, "banh mi" refers almost exclusively to the sandwich. Likewise, "banh mi" (with no accents) is now a widely accepted English term (see any dictionary, e.g.,, , ) Here's the definition from the dictionary built into macOS: banh mi | ˈbɑːn miː |

noun (plural same)

(in Vietnamese cuisine) a sandwich consisting of a baguette (traditionally baked with both rice and wheat flour) filled with a variety of ingredients, typically including meat, pickled vegetables, and chilli peppers: along with classic banh mi, there are refreshing cold noodles and exceptional bowls of soup.

ORIGIN from Vietnamese bánh mì ‘bread’.

Therefore, the main headword of the article in English Wikipedia should be "banh mi", not "bánh mì". Just as we have an article for Hanoi, not an article for Hà Nội. And as a widely recognized loanword, "banh mi" should *not* be italicized in the article unless it is being used as part of a native Vietnamese term such as bánh mì thịt nguội. Bueller 007 (talk) 18:07, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Etymologies should not be the first paragraph of the lead. Merriam Webster as a source for moving it to an etymology section . English language sources use bánh mì so no need to change the title . Spudlace (talk) 10:41, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Questionable information regarding rice flour in Vietnamese baguettes
The first source [17 ] after the paragraph stating that Vietnamese baguettes attribute their fluffy texture to rice flour explicitly states that rice flour is the worst thing for that purpose — the source says it hinders gluten development, prevents browning, and forms hard spots in the dough. It was used for a brief period of time ending with WWI, after which no further information is provided. The relevant paragraph, Google translated:

The French were forced to add rice flour to the flour, to create the "pain de riz" cakes. And so, the culinary barrier that the first-generation colonists worked hard to establish was broken. Interestingly, although the mixing of rice flour with wheat flour only lasted until the end of World War I, many people still believe that the light banh mi made in Vietnam is due to the addition of rice flour (?! ). “There are recipes out there for rice flour that makes up 50 percent of the bread dough, and as a result they create rock-hard lumps of dough that can be thrown and injured,” said Andrea Nguyen, head of the department. chef and food writer who lives in California, said. “Rice flour does not expand due to the lack of gluten. In addition, the rice flour does not turn a beautiful brown color. I have tried several recipes with rice flour and they are terrible.”

To my knowledge, Vietnamese baguettes are proofed within an inch of over-proofing and / or are enhanced with dough conditioner (which is readily available and has been since before the 1950s) in an attempt to make more bread with less flour. The second source [18] says nothing on the matter and the third source [16] says little more than “some recipes use rice flour”, which is far from something worthy of citing. I know it has other relevant information, but it does not provide any insight into the use of rice flour. Source [17] basically completely invalidates the point it is there to support. I imagine the prevalence of the rice theory is in part because a huge percentage of Vietnamese baguettes (in Vietnam) are made by commercial bakeries, so many people living there and even those selling banh mi’s still think the secret ingredient is rice flour. Because of the totally alien texture, more people are inclined to believe this as well. It’s a self-perpetuating myth based on truth. This is anecdotal evidence, but I've made Vietnamese baguettes countless times with nearly that many recipes -- rice flour, if called for, consistently results in a denser and less fluffy product. As a nod to the other side, rice flour is a very good non-stick coating for proofing bread, keeping it from sticking to the banneton / proofing basket (if making the kind of bread that warrants such a tool). I imagine a bakery trying to keep its flour waste as close to zero as possible would be using rice flour for this purpose. In that context, though, it contributes nothing to the fluffiness of the resultant bread. Banh myself (talk) 00:54, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bánh mì


text:
Papagos

Papagos may refer to:

 * Alexandros Papagos, Greek field marshal during World War II and Greek prime minister
 * Papagou, Athens, Greece, suburb named after Alexandros Papagos
 * Tohono O'odham, Native American group formerly known as the Papago

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Papagos


text:
Rustenburg

Rustenburg (, Afrikaans and Dutch: City of Rest ) is a city at the foot of the Magaliesberg mountain range. Rustenburg is the most populous city in North West province, South Africa (549,575 in 2011 and 626,522 in the 2016 census). In 2017, the city's Gross Domestic Product (GDP) reached ZAR 63.8 billion,  accounting for 21.1% of the GDP of the North West Province, and 1.28% of the GDP of South Africa. Rustenburg was one of the official host cities of the 2010 FIFA World Cup, being in close proximity to Phokeng, the capital of the Royal Bafokeng Nation, where the Royal Bafokeng Stadium is located. The England national football team also used this as their base camp for the tournament.

Mfecane
Before European settlers arrived, the area had been settled by agrarian Setswana-speaking tribes

Rustenburg's population is primarily Tswana people. Partially belonging to the Royal Bafokeng Nation, extensive landowners earning royalties from mining operations. The Royal Bafokeng are descendants of Sotho settlers who displaced the local tribes from the region, which they came to call 'place of dew' (Phokeng). In the early 1800s, the Bafokeng and other Tswana communities were conquered in a series of devastating wars launched by an offshoot of the Zulu kingdom, called the Matebele. The Boers had also fought the Zulu and Matebele, and so the Boers and Tswana found in the Matebele a common enemy. The Tswana and Boers planned together and worked toward defeating the Matebele from a Sotho-Tswana kingdom to the south, and together, they defeated the Matebele. As the Boers settled in the area, called their settlement Rustenburg because they had relatively friendly relations with their Bafokeng allies in the area, and after the many violent military conflicts with other African chiefdoms, such as the Matebele, they believed they could rest ("rusten" in Dutch) in this settlement, whose name literally means "Resting Town." Although had already long lived in the area when the Boers arrived, the Bafokeng bought land rights from the Boers, and they purchased their first tracts of land in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century from the colonial rulers, some in exchange for serving in the Boer Wars. Although these land purchases were technically illegal, Paul Kruger, who would become a president of the Transvaal Boer Republic, but was then a veld kornet, was friendly to the Bafokeng and helped arrange many of these purchases. A public hospital has been named after Paul Kruger.

Establishment
Rustenburg was established in 1851 as an administrative centre for an Afrikaner farming area that produced citrus fruit, tobacco, peanuts, sunflower seeds, maize, wheat and cattle. On 10 February 1859, the Reformed Churches in South Africa was founded under a Syringa tree, now commemorated with a memorial. Rustenburg was the home of Paul Kruger, president of the South African Republic, who bought a 5 square kilometer farm to the north-west of the town in 1863. The homestead on his farm, Boekenhoutfontein, is now the Paul Kruger Country Museum. When the Boer and the British came to blows in the Second Boer War (1899), the territory around Rustenburg became a battlefield. The two sides clashed at nearby Mafikeng, where the British garrison found itself under siege for months.

Among the early residents of Rustenburg were settlers of Indian origin. One of the first families of Indian origin was the Bhyat family, whose contribution to the city's history was marked by the renaming of a major street name to Fatima Bhayat Street in honour of Fatima Bhyat who arrived in Rustenburg with her husband in 1877.

Platinum mining in Rustenburg began in 1929, shortly after the discovery of the Platinum Reef by Hans Merensky, later named the Merensky Reef. The mine is located about 3 km from the town centre and owned and managed by the Anglo American plc. According to legend, the farmer that owned the land sold the mineral rights to Anglo American for R10 000.

Post-Apartheid
The township of Boitekong on the northeast side of Rustenburg has one of the highest incidences of AIDS orphans in South Africa Rustenburg was the venue for World AIDS Day commemoration in December 2010. The township is in a geographical area which bears the brunt of the catchment area of the toxic effects of the mining industry coupled with a very poor quality of water supply from the local Bospoort Dam, the water from which was for decades considered too toxic for human consumption until water shortages in the nineties compelled the purification and supply to Boitekong. Life for the majority under the rule of the 'Royal Bafokeng' has parallels to the apartheid era. In the Apartheid era, forced removals of old settlements were on the basis of racial divide whereas now it is done for installation of massive mining operations sometimes engulfing entire villages.

The Royal Bafokeng company own the stadium selected as a World Cup 2010 venue, the only 'private' stadium that hosted games in the 2010 World cup. The Royal Bafokeng regard themselves as a 'separate nation' which is in contradiction to the Rainbow nation espoused by Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela. This 'nationhood' is regarded by many today as a divide and rule tactic orchestrated by the mining conglomerates which has subsequently led to the calls for nationalization of the mining industry by the ANC Youth League. The majority of people in the region 20 years after the fall of apartheid still live in abject poverty despite the massive profits yielded by the platinum royalties. This has led in recent years to claims of kleptocracy against the 'royal' family and land claim disputes.

Agriculture in the region has been in constant decline since the decimation of the vast citrus estates of Rustenburg in the 1970s and 1980s due to pollution from increased smelting and beneficiating processes by mines. There are only a fraction of the original citrus farms remaining.

In 1990, the first post-Apartheid conference between the Nederduits Gereformeerde Kerk (the Dutch Reformed Church in Africa) and the South African churches was held in Rustenburg. During this conference, professor Willie Jonker of the University of Stellenbosch made this confession on behalf of the entire DRC: "[I] confess before you and before the Lord, not only my own sin and guilt, and my personal responsibility for the political, social, economic and structural wrongs that have been done to many of you and the results [from] which you and our whole country are still suffering, but vicariously I dare also to do that in the name of the NGK [the white DRC], of which I am a member, and for the Afrikaans people as a whole." The conference finally resulted in the signing of the Rustenburg Declaration, which moved strongly toward complete confession, forgiveness, and restitution.

Climate
Rustenburg has a humid subtropical climate (Köppen Cwa), with a relatively high degree of diurnal temperature variation due to the high elevation. It has very warm summers (from December to February) and mild winters (from June to August). Due to the altitude, summers are not quite as hot as one might expect. Precipitation occurs mainly in summer. There is occasional frost at night in winter.

Demographics 2011

 * Area: 3423.23 sqkm
 * Population: 549,575
 * Households: 335,776
 * 3.5% growth

Tourist hub
The city is located on major highway routes and close to 2 major centres, making it a hub for tourist activities. Within the city are some historic churches and Mosque, including the Anglican Church (1871), the Dutch Reformed Church (1898–1903) and the Zinniaville Jamme Mosque in Zinniaville, the historic statue of the Voortrekker girl and the Rustenburg Museum. There are many Shopping centers which bring in an influx of people from around Rustenburg such as Waterfall mall, Rustenburg mall, Sun Central, Greystone Crossing and Platinum square where one can go shopping and dining. Rustenburg has much to entertain which include Golf Courses, hot Air ballooning, mountain climbing, hiking, the famous Ten Flags Theme park and much more. Rustenburg is also close to Magaliesburg which offers a number of restaurants and outdoor activities.

Communities and battlefields
There are several sites of cultural and historical significance in and around Rustenburg. Some of these related to the indigenous Bafokeng, Bakgatla and Botswana tribes, whose totemic tribal traditions are of interest. There is also the German community of Kroondal that traces its origins back to 1857.

A number of Anglo-Boer and ethnic war battles took place in the area with the districts of Koster, Swartruggens and Rustenburg featuring battlefields, memorial graves and ruined forts. The area also has archaeological remains from the Iron Age and Stone Age.

Nature reserves
Key attractions in this area include the nature reserves around Rustenburg. This includes:
 * Kgaswane Nature Reserve is situated above the town of Rustenburg, In Waterfall Park, Cashan across a varied habitat of quartzite mountain peaks, it is open to hikers as well as vehicle visitors. It is a 4,257 ha reserve.
 * Madikwe Game Reserve and Groot Marico Park are large reserves north of the Pilanesberg, almost half the size of Belgium. They are conservation and transition zone between the Kalahari sandveld and the thornveld. Madikwe hosts all the major plains species, including the Big Five and has the second largest concentration of elephants in South Africa.
 * Pilanesberg Game Reserve is one of the most accessible South African game reserves. It is located a 1.5-hour drive from Johannesburg and Pretoria, outside Rustenburg. It is the fourth largest National Park in South Africa and is set in the Pilanesberg range, traversing the floor of a long-extinct volcano. Pilanesberg conserves all the major mammal species including lion, leopard, elephant, rhino and buffalo.

Holiday destination
Sun City and the Lost City resorts located within the crater of the dormant volcano which the Pilanesberg Game Reserve lies above. The complex is set on the slopes of a valley in the Pilanesberg Mountains. Sun City is a world renown destination by Sun International and remains one of the best resorts in Southern Africa. Tourist amenities include a shopping mall, casinos, the 'Valley of the Waves' and two championship golf courses.

Protea hotel hunters rest borders the Kgaswane Nature reserve. Just 5 km from Waterfall mall. There are many amenities at this resort including, hiking, swimming, golf, horse riding, and game drives.

Shopping

Waterfall Mall nestled in Waterfall Park of Cashan in Rustenburg. Offers indoor shopping with just around 200 shops to visit.

Platinum Square, Lifestyle Square, Rustenburg Square are all owned by a single company located within Rustenburg. These Shopping locations are central to different areas of the city and all offer anchor Supermarkets and a variety of other shops.

Boitekong Mall. Waterfall Mall, Phokeng Mall, Tlhabane Square- located in Tlhabane, Rustenburg Mall, Moruleng mall, Suncity village shopping centre.

Sport

 * Rustenburg was one of the host cities of the 2010 FIFA World Cup with the 42,000-seat Royal Bafokeng Stadium.
 * Professional Football Clubs: Platinum Stars
 * Rustenburg is home to another world-class stadium, Olympia Park. It hosted some of the 1995 Rugby World Cup games.
 * Rustenburg Judo Club is one of the strongest clubs in South Africa, dominating the provincial team of North West Province and winning the most medals of any single club in South Africa in SA National Championships over the last 15 years.
 * Rustenburg Skydiving Club – a popular skydiving facility for sports skydiving and parachuting, tandem skydiving, Accelerated Freefall (AFF) and static line courses.
 * The Gary Player Country Club, located in nearby Sun City, hosts the annual Nedbank Golf Challenge, a round of the European Tour.
 * Rustenburg Golf Club which is located in the heart of the city has had a major renovation since it was leased to MH Tayob in 2017. The golf club has improved its revenue tremendously by improving its Courses and adding many other amenities such as, Park run, Put Put, Indoor trampoline park, many restaurants and a 4 star event and conference centre.
 * Rustenburg is home to 2 swimming clubs, Otters Rustenburg and Rustenburg Swimming Club.
 * Impala Cricket Club is a Cricket sports ground located next to Olympia Park Stadion

Development
Rustenburg is home to the two largest platinum mines in the world and the world's largest platinum refinery, PMR Home (Precious Metal Refiners), which processes around 70% of the world's platinum. As a result of the mining activity in this mineral-rich area, there is also an increased focus on social development. Rustenburg is one of only 5 South African cities to have a community foundation, called the Greater Rustenburg Community Foundation (GRCF), that seeks to ensure the regional development reaches all levels of society.

Transformation of Rustenburg into a Smart City
Rustenburg has been highly dependent on mining which is responsible for more than 65% of local GDP and 50% of all direct jobs. The secondary GDP contributors are, by a considerable margin, finance (9%) and retail (8%). Since Platinum mining is projected to decline after 2040, the Rustenburg Local Municipality formulated the Rustenburg Vision 2040 in 2014, with the goal of becoming a world-class green, efficient, sustainable and intricately interconnected Smart City where all communities enjoy a high quality of life. This includes the redevelopment and rejuvenation of existing CBD areas to new world-class commercial centres with a conspicuous signature skyline incorporating a plethora of high-rise landmark buildings and skyscrapers as part of the smart space planning and smart maximization of land usage that sustainably creates breathing room for people to move, live, work and play.

Rustenburg Rapid Transport Project (RRT)
As at the end of the 2017/18 financial year, the Rustenburg Metropolitan had spent about R2.7 billion on the upgrading of old and the construction of new public transport infrastructure in and around the city. The infrastructure includes 20 km of bi-directional Transitway Rustenburg Rapid Transport (RRT) Bus rapid transit lanes, walk ways and 17 Sub-stations. After completion, 37 safe and clean enclosed stations on the trunk lines stations will be fully operational along 40 km of road using at least 100 articulated buses to transport passengers along the main corridors. On completion of Phase 1 of the 4 phase project, the RRT is projected to deliver 225 000 passenger trips a day through 13 routes, 240 bus stops and 15 BRT stations using around 268 buses. While Bus rapid transit is one of the components of the RRT system design, it will not be an exclusively BRT driven operation. The routes have been planned to integrate with bus routes servicing townships, suburbs and outlying village areas as well as long-distance bus services, which will work in unison to move people around the city and region.

Transport
Rustenburg Airfield (FARG), situated in the middle part of the city, is the Rustenburg Local Municipality Airfield, licensed according to Civil Aviation Authority standards. Rustenburg SkyDiving Club operates every weekend year round from the airfield. It currently has a 1225m long and 15m runway and serves small planes for skydiving and parachuting. As part of Rustenburg's Aerodrome Master Plan, the Airfield will receive an upgrade.

Pilanesberg International Airport (NTY), located at 50 km to the North of RLM, is an airport serving Sun City in the North West Province of South Africa. It is located close to the Pilanesberg Game Reserve and mainly serves tourists visiting the Sun City resort. It has a 2750m long and 30m wide runway and handles about 8000 passengers per year.

The other nearest international airport to Rustenburg situated 140 km south-easterly is the O. R. Tambo International Airport which is located to the east of Johannesburg. Currently, international travelers to Rustenburg come predominantly via the O.R. Tambo International Airport.

Two interprovincial rail lines traverse Rustenburg. One is in the middle part of Rustenburg connecting Rustenburg eastwards to Brits and northwards to Thabazimbi, the other rail line runs through the eastern part of Rustenburg connecting it south-easterly to Krugersdorp and south-westerly to Koster. There is a possibility of upgrading the existing Rustenburg Railway network to better cater to passengers as part of the city's revitalization. Previously, the railway lines served long-distance passengers, but are now only used for transporting platinum and chrome concentrates to smelters.

The Rustenburg Rapid Transport (RRT) Bus rapid transit network will incorporate 40 km (half bi-directional) transport networks, walk ways and 17 sub-stations with and over 260 buses.

Education
Schools in Rustenburg include:
 * Boikagong Secondary School
 * Tlhabane West Primary School
 * Abana primary school
 * Bergsig Akademie/Academy
 * Die Hoërskool Rustenburg
 * HS Grenswag
 * Zinniaville Secondary School
 * Rustenburg Technical High School
 * Grenville High School
 * Rauwane Sepeng
 * Fields College
 * Selly Park Convent Primary School
 * Selly Park Secondary School
 * Geelhout Park High School
 * H.F Tlou High School
 * President Mangope Technical and Commercial High School
 * Tlhabane Technical and Commercial High School
 * Bafokeng High School
 * Grenswag HS
 * Lebone II College
 * Rustenburg Educational College
 * Kele Secondary School
 * Meridian Private School
 * J M Ntsime High School
 * Keledi High School
 * Vastrap primary
 * Proteapark primary
 * Deo Gloria Christian Academy
 * Karlienpark Primary School
 * Khayalethu Secondary School
 * Bothibello Primary School
 * Nur-ul-Iman Muslim School
 * Itumeleng Secondary School
 * Tswaidi High School
 * Mmanape High School
 * Motladi Kgoadi Goadi Primary School
 * Bosabosele Primary School
 * Nkukise Primary School
 * Matale Secondary School

Higher education & further education colleges include:
 * University of South Africa Rustenburg Hub (UNISA)
 * Platinum College
 * Rock of Springs Technical College
 * Boston City Campus
 * Global Tech College
 * Multi-Tech College
 * Keobakile Nursing Academy
 * MSC Business College
 * Damelin Rustenburg
 * ORBIT College Rustenburg
 * Centurion Akademie
 * Brooklyn City College Rustenburg
 * Advisor Progressive College Rustenburg

Other Tertiary Education Institutions close to Rustenburg:
 * North-West University
 * University of Pretoria
 * University of the Witwatersrand
 * Tshwane University of Technology
 * University of South Africa Main Campus
 * Sefako Makgatho Health Sciences University
 * University of Johannesburg

International relations
Rustenburg is twinned with:
 * 🇩🇪 Marsberg, Germany

Notable people
Famous people with roots in Rustenburg include:
 * Rory Alec – Christian broadcaster
 * Johan Botha – opera singer
 * Pik Botha – politician and foreign minister (1977–1994)
 * Bettie Cilliers-Barnard – painter
 * John Cranko – ballet choreographer
 * Koos du Plessis – singer-songwriter
 * Frik du Preez – rugby union player
 * John Smit – Springbok rugby captain
 * Andre Stander – bank robber
 * Esta TerBlanche – actress
 * Sunette Viljoen – javelin thrower
 * Denise Zimba – television presenter (V Entertainment)
 * Renske Stoltz – netball player (for South Africa since 2015)
 * Dwaine Pretorius – cricket player (for South Africa since 2016)
 * Gerhard Mostert – former Springbok player. He is Wessel's Mostert's older brother

title: Rustenburg


text:
Talk:Electronic meeting system

text moved here from Cleanup/August

 * Electronic meeting system - Cleaned up a bit, but still needs to be broken down. --Slowking Man 07:57, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * I've broken it into paragraphs, but I don't know enough about it to add any further detail. Joyous 23:30, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * It looks fine to me - there have been several edits since it was added here. --Jim Henry 18:33, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Where cited :: Social Network Analysis
Merging this article as proposed would NOT effective!

Since the late 1960's, GDSS has been a global field of interdisciplinary studies hosted at the Hawaii International Conference on System Sciences (HICSS)

Please see expanded remarks posted at Talk:Group decision support systems RJBurkhart 14:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Argument against merging into EMS
Merger should be the other way around. GSS is the more universal term. EMS never quite caught on the same way. The term EMS comes out of the Nunamaker et al. 1991 (se below) defining Electronic Meeting Systems. It was an update from the term GDSS (trying to show that these systems were not just for "decisions".) A year later, Jessup and Valacich (both students of Nunamaker) published a book (see below) that used the term Group Support Systems (GSS). This latter term seems to have more legs - though both pretty much mean the same thing.

So, the pages should be merged, but the label should be GSS. --Dmittleman 16:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Cites: Jay Nunamaker, Alan Dennis, Joseph Valacich, Douglas Vogel, and Joey George, "Electronic Meeting Systems to Support Group Work," ''Communications of the ACM', July 1991, 34(7), pp 40-61.

Leonard Jessup, Joseph Valacich, Group Support Systems: New Persepectives, MacMillan: New York, 1993.

Electronic brainstorming
FYI, text/drawing collaboration tool avail. at GE's imaginationcubed.com. Maybe worth an external link? Signed220.101.66.30 (talk) 03:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Electronic Meeting Systems coined earlier
Opening paragraph states EMS coined in 1991 "An electronic meeting system (EMS) is a type of computer software that facilitates creative problem solving and decision-making of groups within or across organizations. The term was coined by Jay Nunamaker et al. in 1991". The below article published in 1990 names EMS in the context of GDSS and Group Communication Support Systems as forms of EMS. Suggest either the original text is either mis-referenced or incorrect.

It may not be necessary to nominate the coining of the term, but to adequately reference the first paragraph instead.

Reference: Pinsonneault, A & Kraemer, KL 1990 'The effects of electronic meetings on group processes and outcomes: An assessment of the empirical research', European Journal of Operational Research, vol. 46, no. 2, pp. 143-161. 2001:44B8:F06:8200:A4F5:52F6:664:8DD1 (talk) 13:39, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Electronic meeting system


text:
Talk:National Minimum Drinking Age Act

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Jendavis75.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Citations needed
It would be nice to have a citation for the dubious-sounding stat about a mojority of teenagers supporting the drinking age.

 * I agree.ch 16:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Two of the listed references (including one which is provided by Potsdam University faculty) refer to this as the National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984, not 1985. I have edited the article to reflect this. 'Net 02:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

 * That's kind of obvious, just ask anyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.47.174 (talk) 23:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Binge drinking
It says that moderate drinking has been replaced with binge drinking, but most students don't binge drink. That's a false impression created by the attention binge drinkers receive on the news. I just took a course on alcohol and saw some statistics, but I don't know where to find them online. Either way, the statement about binge drinking sounds very POV to me.

 * It's also encouraged by the fact that those surveys routinely "define" binge drinking not as excessive or uncontrolled consumption of alcohol, but simply as consumption of five or more drinks on a single occasion. That is obviously a binge for some and not others, and depends on how and why they're consumed that way.

Only applies to beverages?

 * Does the act cover alcoholic solids, or only beverages? SteveSims (talk) 02:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Congressional voting record
If anybody has the voting record for this act then post it in the article, even if only as an external link. SteveSims (talk) 20:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is entirely POV
In deleting some of the proponents' dubious claims, we seem to have left this article slanted entirely in the opposition's favor. This article needs a less negative intro, data about why the law was passed, and a section in support of the law to balance out the general negativity given off by this article. Feel free to remove the Template:NPOV if/when this article becomes a little less one-sided. —LinkTiger (talk) 05:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm... not really sure what deletion you're talking about. From what I can tell above, though, it looks like whatever might have been dubious and unsourced was simply removed, which is in line with our policy of verifiability.  Unsourced statements, as a general rule of thumb, shouldn't linger in an encyclopedia.  A fairly old revision of this article seems to closely resemble the current version— only with unsourced statements (and possible biography of living persons policy issues) removed.  You're more than welcome to propose and/or make changes to the article if there's something you feel should be added— we simply ask that ideally those changes mesh with our current our policies and guidelines. As for now, I'm going to simply assume that the issues that spurred the addition of the tag have been resolved, so I will remove the NPOV tag unless there is consensus that there is a further need for it. -- slakr  \ talk / 21:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with LinkTiger. I changed a few things where the source was not saying the negative stuff the article was. I suspect if I was to go through and read all the sources I would find a lot more but lazy. :P If someone else wants to I think the article would be much improved if we just say what the sources say. Winfredtheforth (talk) 22:11, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Reference 8 no longer exists
I clicked on link to reference number 8, the site says the article no longer exists. I saw no way to edit the list. I also briefly searched on the internet for another source for this "mainfesto" but could only find links back to the original broken link.Jeff (talk) 17:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Needs history
The article would be much improved by a discussion of the reasons for its adoption.

Drinking ages were previously established and then lowered before being raised by this act. Why?

There must have been some rationale for such wavering, so it would seem a valid topic for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.68.66.152 (talk) 14:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Higher Drinking Age allowed?
If a state were to choose a drinking age of, say, 23 instead of 21, would that be okay, or would that state be subject to the 10% reduction in highway funds? Shades97 (talk) 01:53, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

'I HAVE TO COMMENT ON THIS TOPIC! I am born n 1962 in Phx. Az. I was a Bartender all over Phx. Scotts. Mesa. Gilbert. Chandler and Glendale for the past 32 years. I started tending bar at the age of 18 in 1980 when the legal drinking age was 19. Back then Female Bartenders worked mostly the day shifts. Bartending was actually a profession back then. The men were not too happy to see Females taking over "A Mans Job"! Anybody can mix a drink, but not everyone can be a Bartender! The legal drinking age was raised to 21 right after I had turned 21. With the Grandfather Clause it made it a pain in carding everyone. I honestly feel that we at 19 handled our liquor etc. much more responsibly than the 21 year olds! I do agree however with the age 21 being the legal age to drink. However, I also feel that any person serving in the military, with a legal military ID, should be able to drink legally at the age of 18! The liquor laws have changed severely since when I started legally drinking! Anyone who gets behind the wheel of any vehicle while intoxicated at all has got to be the dumbest person! Call a cab, friend, walk, take a bus, ride a bicycle! There are way too many accidents, fatalities, from drunk driving PERIOD. It will not only mess up your life but it will also cost you a ton of money and jail time if you drink n drive. Drinking is a priviledge and its supposed to be fun so do it responsibly easy as that! I have enjoyed my career as a Bartender and I was one of the best because I did look after those who needed it and didnt care how mad or upset they would get when i cut them off or took their keys etc. because I knew that the next day they all would thank me! Kids are going to drink underage no matter what the legal age is! That is just part of the growing cycle. Heck the best part of that is keeping from getting caught! However, parents know whats going on and believe nowadays alcohol is truly the least of our problems with high school to 21 year olds.! Finally marajuana is being legalized, which i honestly never thought Id see! I have never been a pot smoker, but seriously Alcohol does Kill, Marajuana does Not! In 50 years of my life I have never once heard of anyone overdosing on pot, contracting any disease (HIV) from pot, or ruining their lives, causing road fatalities etc. Brain Damage? REALLY? All the pollution crap in our air will do that too! Anyway, the legal drinking age of 21 should never change! Bold text' Big text — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patortess (talk • contribs) 01:29, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Another interesting thing to consider is, we can draft men into service to fight a war, we have men and women serving who fight our wars and die in them, but are not permitted to even have a beer with their 21 and over comrades. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.159.44 (talk) 13:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Relevant statistics
I suspect this section may be original research. I have removed the material from this section that either incorrectly summarized what was stated in the reference, or is obviously irrelevant as the cited findings were subsequent to the passage of the Act. That means that nothing is left but a bunch of references to the same article, The Minimum Legal Drinking Age and Public Health from the Journal of Economic Perspectives. Someone should get a copy of this journal and verify that it supports the information in this article.Crypticfirefly (talk) 05:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Followup: Here's the article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3182479/ And the journal article that other portions of this article seems to be based on is also available online for free: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.2009.104.issue-12/issuetoc http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2009.02742.x/pdf Crypticfirefly (talk) 05:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Yet another followup: After checking each item in this section, all of them are either completely irrelevant (daytime vs nighttime auto accident rates-- relevant to understanding the underlying statistics, but not support for passage of the Act) or are based on studies that took place after the Act passed, which means they couldn't possibly have been considered. Other items mis-state the statistics in the cited article. There may be statistics that were considered that could be mentioned here, but I'm not going to go looking for them. Until that day comes, I'd deleting this pointless and inaccurate section entirely. Crypticfirefly (talk) 06:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

In light of these findings, I'm going to consider whether the rest of the edit of User:Jcampino which added this stuff in November 2012 (this is the only article he/she has ever worked on) as being suspect as well. Crypticfirefly (talk) 06:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Only two articles are needed to make a sweeping claim that the drinking age is uncontroversial and unproblematic, and the all dissent is illegitimate? That is very doubtful, so I put up the expansion tag. Lothar76 (talk) 23:43, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

MADD mom edited...
The scientific research section is clearly written by some biased source, most likely a soccer mom who's son died after drinking at prom. I suggest removing the section unless someone can replace the junk currently there with unbiased facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.245.105.58 (talk) 03:27, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Problems
The sentence:

QUOTE:

Despite its name, this act did not outlaw the consumption of alcoholic beverages by those under 21 years of age, just its purchase. However, Alabama, Indiana, Kansas, Michigan, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Vermont, and the District of Columbia extended the law into an outright ban.

UNQUOTE

The sentence ends in "outright ban" as if the distinction is made to a "partial ban". The distinction is actually between "an outright ban on purchase" and "an outright ban on consumption".

The sentence:

QUOTE:

Despite its name, this act did not outlaw the consumption of alcoholic beverages by those under 21 years of age, just its purchase.

UNQUOTE

is just wrong. This Federal law does not set the drinking age in any state. States can still set a minimum age less than 21 for the consumption, sale, purchase, and/or possession of alcoholic beverages. Should they do so, this Federal law will deprive them of some highway money that otherwise (had some age been pegged at 21) would have come from Federal sources. That's all that this law does. This Federal law does not peg any minimum age concerning alcohol. I don't know about things like Guam and The District Of Columbia, but if you're in one of the 50 STATES, minimum ages related to alcohol in your location are a matter of State Law (although it may be permissible for State Law to further delegate pegging those minimum ages to smaller divisions within the state).2604:2000:C682:2D00:BCCE:4BD3:375D:D2DF (talk) 15:18, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

title: Talk:National Minimum Drinking Age Act


text: Category:Hungarian poets

title: Category:Hungarian poets


text:
Talk:Maxima (software)

GPL not GNU
Though Maxima is released under the GPL, it is not sponsored by GNU, so it is not correct to call it "GNU Maxima". I corrected that. --Macrakis 21:33, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

POSIX Compatible?
If Maxima can run on any POSIX-compliant OS, it should be capable of running on any of the WinNT line, sans Windows binaries.
 * MSTCrow 04:13, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Removed from article
an anon tried to add a link to How to create graphs for Wikipedia articles. Not sure if it could be put in the article. — Omegatron 00:19, 20 September 2005 (UTC) It could be in wikibook about Maxima, but now there is no such book --Adam majewski (talk) 22:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

GNU
Is it true that Maxima is not a GNU project and should not be linked as GNU Maxima ? Maybe it should be GSL Maxima or Maxima CAS ? --Adam majewski (talk) 14:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

 * From http://www.gnu.org/software/maxima/maxima.html : "(Maxima is free software, but it is not a GNU package. However, the GNU web site has long had this page about it, so it will remain for reference.)". --Gwern (contribs) 20:08 1 March 2008 (GMT)

generating code
Hi. I can't find example for generating code in other programming languages in Maxima. --Adam majewski (talk) 11:32, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified (January 2018)
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text:
Glenelg, Highland

Glenelg (Glinn Eilg, also Gleann Eilg ) is a scattered community area and civil parish in the Lochalsh area of Highland in western Scotland. Despite the local government reorganisation the area is considered by many still to be in Inverness-shire, the boundary with Ross-shire (where the post town of Kyle of Lochalsh is situated) being at the top of Mam Ratagan ("Ratagan Gap" or "pass") the single-track road entry into Glenelg.

The main village is called Kirkton of Glenelg and commonly referred to as "Glenelg". There is a smaller hamlet less than 1 mi to the south by the jetty and skirting Glenelg Bay known as Quarry. There are several other clusters of houses scattered over Glenelg including up Glen Beag and Glen More and on the road leading to the ferry at Kyle Rhea. The parish covers a large area including Knoydart, North Morar and the ferry port of Mallaig. At the 2001 census it had a population of 1,507. The smaller "settlement zone" around Kirkton had a population of 283. In 2011 Highland Council estimated that the community of Glenelg and Arnisdale had a population of 291.

Geography
Glenelg is located south of Loch Alsh, by the fiercely tidal Kyle Rhea narrows, where the Isle of Skye is closest to the mainland. Between November and February, the only access to Glenelg is by road over the 339 m Mam Ratagan – known loosely as "the Bealach" (pass) – from Shiel Bridge on the main road from Inverness to Skye. From the summit of Mam Ratagan the road runs gently into Glenelg down Glen More (Gleann Mhòr, "big valley"), which is otherwise isolated from Loch Duich by Beinn a Chuirn, and from Loch Alsh by Glas Beinn. There is a second valley, approximately parallel to Glen More and to the south known as Glen Beag (Gleann Beag, "small valley"), separated from Glen More by Beinn a' Chaonich. On reaching the coast, the road continues southwards, following the shore of Loch Hourn, where it terminates at Corran; Loch Hourn is separated from Glen Beag by Beinn a' Chapuill and Beinn Sgritheall.

Its proximity to Skye meant that Glenelg was formerly of more strategic importance and had a significantly larger population. It appears on the relevant map of the first atlas of Scotland, published by Joan Blaeu in Amsterdam in 1662, for instance. Cattle from the outer islands were taken to Uig in the north of Skye to join with those reared on Skye and other nearby islands, driven south to the village of Kylerhea, and, tied together in dozens, nose ring to tail and guided by a rowing boat, swum the 534 metres to the mainland before being herded to market along the drovers' road through Glen Beag, on to Kinlochhourn and then to the markets at Stirling and Falkirk and elsewhere in the Scottish Lowlands. Between March and October, there is the option to cross the Kyle Rhea strait by ferry (see below).

Following the Jacobite rising of 1715, Glenelg was chosen along with Fort George, Fort Augustus and Fort William as one of four sites in the Highlands for a military barracks. These were completed in 1725 and a military road soon linked Glenelg to the rest of General George Wade's road network. Ultimately unsuccessful in preventing the 1745 uprising and not needed after the Highland Clearances, the Bernera Barracks are now ruined.

The war memorial in Glenelg was erected in 1920 to a design by Sir Robert Lorimer. A person from Glenelg is known in Gaelic as an Eilgeach.

Ferry
Between March and October, a small vehicle ferry connects to Kylerhea on Skye across the powerful currents of the narrows. The ferry used on the crossing since 1982 is the MV Glenachulish, the last hand-operated steel turntable ferry in operation in the world. Built in 1969 for the Ballachulish crossing by the Ailsa Shipbuilding Company in Troon, it is now operated by a local community-interest company. The ferry can transport six cars plus foot passengers on the open deck. It is unusual in that the ferry ties up alongside the slipway and the crew manually turn the deck, which is built on a turntable, for cars and passengers to embark and disembark. When the Ballachulish Bridge opened in 1975, it became the relief vessel for Corran, Kylesku and Kessock near Inverness. The ferry service was suspended in 2020 because of the COVID-19 pandemic but restarted on 1 May 2021.

The Glenelg Ferry slipway was designed by Thomas Telford in 1818 and is Category B listed.

Attractions
The ferry is a tourist attraction in itself. Another attraction in recent years are a pair of resident sea eagles During the summer, sightings are almost daily as they fish by the ferry crossing trying to feed their young. Glenelg attracts tourists to the remains of two of the best-preserved brochs (Dun Telve and Dun Troddan) on mainland Scotland, located in Glen Beag, about three miles further along the road from the main Glenelg settlement.

Amenities
The community's only pub is the Glenelg Inn. This stands on the site of the earlier Glenelg Hotel, a hotel with marble flooring which caught fire in 1946 and had to be demolished. There is also a village shop, an organic market garden/croft and associated cafe, in Glen Beag. There is also a seasonal cafe in the Glenelg Village Hall in Kirkton and local businesses offering local services including bicycle hire and repair. Glenelg Parish Church of Scotland has an 18th-century core. It underwent repairs from 1821 to 1830, the interior was remodelled in 1863 and again in 1929. There is an 18th-century bird-cage bellcote to the west gable. It is now united with other churches across Lochalsh area as part of the South West Ross Church of Scotland. Within the area also meets Glenelg Free Church of Scotland (part of Glenelg and Inverinate Free Church), which uses the Glenelg Parish Church for their evening service; and Glenelg Christian Fellowship, part of the Apostolic Church.

Glenelg Amateur Football Club
Glenelg Amateur Football Club is known to locals by their nickname of "The Duffers", were re-formed in 2011 by Grant MacLeod.

In 2019, Glenelg FC won the Clan Donald Cup, their first trophy in over 43 years.

Etymology
Although the name nowadays refers to the whole district, it is likely that it originally referred only to the glen containing the brochs. The specific element of the name (Eilg) is found elsewhere, such as in Elgin (Gaelic Eilginn) and is generally accepted as being a kenning for Ireland. Other such names include Banavie, Banff, Atholl, Lochearn, Auldearn, and show Gaelic settlers using the same migrant naming practice as gives us placenames such as New Caledonia and New York.

The name is unusual in that it is a palindrome.

Twinning with Mars
Glenelg was officially twinned with Glenelg, Mars, on 20 October 2012. A palindromic name was chosen by NASA because the rover Curiosity would visit the site twice.

Sandaig and Camusfeàrna
The author Gavin Maxwell's retreat at Sandaig (which he called Camusfeàrna, "the bay of the alders", in his book Ring of Bright Water) is within the Glenelg community area around 6 mi south of Kirkton of Glenelg. The house had previously been a smallholding and home for the part-time lighthouse keeper of the Sandaig Lighthouse.

The Sandaig Light formerly on Little Sandaig was built in 1910 by Charles Alexander Stevenson (cousin of the novelist Robert Louis Stevenson) for the Northern Lighthouse Board. In 2002 the tower was restored and moved to the community-owned Glenelg Ferry Terminal where it is now a feature.

The eponymous Sandaig Islands are a small group of islets just off the point in the Sound of Sleat and are known for their fine silvery shell sand beaches.

Sandaig can be accessed by foot from the main Glenelg to Arnisdale Road.

Notable people

 * Alasdair Mac Mhaighstir Alasdair, (1698–1770) legendary Scottish Gaelic poet, officer during the Jacobite Uprising of 1745, and Gaelic tutor to Prince Charles Edward Stuart spent his last years at Sandaig
 * Terry Nutkins, (1946–2012) naturalist, television presenter and author, and in his youth was one of Gavin Maxwell's otter keepers.
 * Neil M. Gunn, novelist, spent holidays with his sister Mary and her husband Dr Keillor who was the local GP, and regarded it as his second home.
 * Gavin Maxwell, (1914–1969) was a Scottish naturalist and author, best known for Ring of Bright Water (1960), his account of his life at Sandaig with his pet otter Mijbil.
 * (Frederick) Anthony Hamilton Wills, 2nd Baron Dulverton (1915–1992) owner of Eilanreach Estate on which Sandaig is situated.
 * Dr Samuel Johnson and James Boswell stayed at the inn now known as Ferry House, on their tour of the Highlands in 1773 later published as Journey to the Western Isles of Scotland (1775).
 * Walter Stuart, Master of Blantyre (1851–1895), Scottish nobleman, lived at Glenelg during the last years of his life, active in farming and yachting.

title: Glenelg, Highland


text:
Moor Park tube station

Moor Park is a London Underground station in the Three Rivers district of Hertfordshire, serving those living on the Moor Park estate, and also on the neighbouring Eastbury and South Oxhey estates. The station is outside the Greater London boundary but is in both Zone 6 and Zone 7, between the Metropolitan line stations of Rickmansworth, Croxley (on the Watford branch) and Northwood.

History
The route extension from Pinner to Rickmansworth opened in 1887 by the Metropolitan Railway. Shortly after in 1899, Great Central Railway trains also passed here, following the Metropolitan via Verney Junction. Moor Park didn't open until 9 May 1910, and the station was called Sandy Lodge, after the Sandy Lodge Golf Course. It was renamed to Moor Park & Sandy Lodge in 1923 to reflect the area it was in. The lines were electrified in 1925 when the Watford branch was opened and electric-hauled trains passed to Rickmansworth to exchange the traction for steam. In 1950 the station was renamed to Moor Park and it was completely rebuilt in 1961, increasing the number of platforms to four: two for northbound trains (one for slow/semi-fast and one for fast services) and two for southbound trains to the city. British Rail and Network SouthEast trains stopped calling at Moor Park from 1993.

Since the 2011 timetable, fast and semi-fast trains have only run during peak times. The fast trains to Aldgate call from platform 2 during the morning peak, and to Amersham or Chesham from platform 1 during the evening peak. At all other times, and all day at weekends, trains depart from platforms 3 and 4, providing all station or semi-fast services to Baker Street or Aldgate going southbound, and to Watford, Amersham or Chesham northbound.

title: Moor Park tube station


text:
George Christopher (mayor)

George Christopher (born George Christopheles; December 8, 1907 – September 14, 2000) was a Greek-American politician who served as the 34th mayor of San Francisco from 1956 to 1964. as of 2024 He is the most recent Republican to be elected mayor of San Francisco.

Early years
Born George Christopheles in Arcadia, Greece, the son of James and Mary (née Koines) Christopheles. He and his family emigrated to the United States in 1910 and settled in San Francisco's South of Market Street neighborhood, then known as "Greektown", when Christopher was two years old. Christopher left school at the age of fourteen when his father James became seriously ill, and he became sole support of his family. He sold newspapers and became a copy boy at the San Francisco Examiner. While working, he also attended night classes at Golden Gate College and earned a bachelor's degree in accounting. After becoming a citizen of the United States in 1930, Christopheles changed his last name to Christopher.

In 1935, he married Tula Sarantitis.

Career
After college, Christopher worked for numerous small firms keeping their accounts and eventually bought out a small dairy on Fillmore Street, which became the Christopher Dairy. Berkeley Farms bought the business in 1970.

San Francisco City Government
Regarded as a moderate Republican, Christopher began his political career in 1945 when he was elected to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors; on re-election, he became board president. Christopher ran for mayor in 1951 and lost by fewer than 3,000 votes to incumbent mayor Elmer Robinson. In November 1955, Christopher again sought the post of mayor. He won in a landslide over Democrat George Reilly. During his administration, San Francisco hosted the 1956 Republican National Convention at the Cow Palace, in which the party renominated incumbent president Dwight D. Eisenhower as its candidate in the upcoming presidential election. Christopher was re-elected in 1959 for a second term.

Christopher was instrumental in bringing the New York Giants baseball team to San Francisco in 1958 (where they became the San Francisco Giants) and securing the funding to build Candlestick Park on the abandoned lands of Sunset Scavenger on Candlestick Point with the ballpark opening for the Giants’ 1960 season. His administration has been credited with the building of the Brooks Hall, 12 new schools, 17 firehouses, six public swimming pools, the five-story Fifth and Mission and the underground Civic Center garages.

Christopher was known for his strong stand on civil rights. He gained worldwide headlines offering his home to Willie Mays after it was reported that a Forest Hill realtor had refused to sell to Mays. Christopher also lobbied and succeeded in opening mental health and alcohol treatment centers under city funding.

Christopher presided over the redevelopment of major portions of city and private lands, labeled slums, some not without controversy as the Embarcadero Center and Golden Gateway, displacing the old wholesale produce market from the filled land southeast of Telegraph Hill to the Alemany location where it remains Japantown and the Fillmore urban renewal that displaced the African-American and the remnants of the Jewish Community for concrete high rises, the new Hall of Justice and the opening of the Embarcadero Freeway, which blocked the Embarcadero and Ferry Building from the city, spawning the first Freeway Revolt.

In Christopher's second term, the House Subcommittee on Un-American Activities held hearings in the City Hall supervisor's chambers. A large group of students and active citizens were fire-hosed down the marble steps inside City Hall rotunda by the San Francisco Police Department when they protested their exclusion from admission to committee hearings. Christopher later told the Federal Government they were no longer welcome in city buildings, but he sided with the committee and spoke for the propaganda newsreel-style film made by the committee about the event titled, Operation Abolition, that blamed Communists for the so-called City Hall riot of May 13, 1960. Christopher was criticized for endorsing the film while saying that "at least 90% of the students were not organized by the Communists."

Other elections
Christopher's various bids for higher office failed. In 1958, Christopher was defeated in the Republican primary for U.S. Senate by Governor Goodwin Knight. In 1962, when Richard Nixon ran for governor, Christopher ran for lieutenant governor, losing to incumbent Democrat Glenn M. Anderson. He lost the June 8, 1966, Republican primary for Governor of California to motion picture and television actor (and future conservative icon and President) Ronald Reagan, who won with 77 percent of the vote. Historian Geoffrey Kabaservice points out that a Drew Pearson column that highlighted a 1940 arrest of Christopher for buying and selling underpriced milk, a story fed to Pearson by the staff of incumbent governor Pat Brown, and Christopher's underwhelming response to that column contributed to the loss.

title: George Christopher (mayor)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beleriand (MUSH)

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. -- AllyUnion (talk) 12:28, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Beleriand (MUSH)
Advertisement for a non-notable online game. 4 players online when I checked. —Korath (Talk) 21:36, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete not notable. Belongs in general article EggplantWizard 21:44, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Concur. Delete. Radiant! 11:59, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, but with reservations. Article needs expansion. Megan1967 07:36, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * With so few people even playing it, who's going to expand it? —Korath (Talk) 02:20, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't see anyone really inhabiting Deimos these days either, but there's an entry for the little Martian moon, isn't there? The article needs expansion; but regardless of whether it ever actually achieves it or not, it should stay. Wikipedia is here to describe things, which the article attempts to do. Keep. Unsigned vote from User:Anatinus. First edit.
 * Delete unless some evidence of notability is provided. Any media coverage? Gamaliel 07:51, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DIY-Dragon

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 10:32, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

DIY-Dragon
Webcomic that only started two and a half weeks ago. Far too new to qualify listing by anyone's standards. Possible vanity and self-promotion by the looks of it. --Paul Soth 21:36, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Agree, delete. A webcomic would be notable if it was running regularly for over a year. Radiant! 22:13, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. The page creator seems to have significant Wikipresence (although with anon IPs, it's hard to say for sure), so I don't think it's a vanity page; but web comic which has only been running for a couple of weeks is definitely jumping the gun in getting an article. If it were a new project by a notable creator (say, Jeff Rowland's new Magical Adventures in Space comic, for instance), then, perhaps; but this pretty clearly isn't. As they say in Chicago, Wait 'Till Next Year. --Ray Radlein 23:15, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Too new. Does not meet Web comics criteria for inclusion.   — Gwalla | Talk 01:29, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, promo. Megan1967 07:28, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avathar (MUD)

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. -- AllyUnion (talk) 12:26, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Avathar (MUD)
Online game; notability not established. —Korath (Talk) 21:37, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete not notable enough, but does belon in the MMOG section if it's not already there. EggplantWizard 21:38, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Concur. Delete. Radiant! 11:59, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, but with reservations. Article needs expansion. Megan1967 07:41, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mrs. Jones (Alex Rider)

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was merge. -- AllyUnion (talk) 12:19, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Mrs. Jones (Alex Rider)
This may qualify as a candidate for speedy deletion. If wondering, I hold no known relation to the author or subject of this article. GRider\talk 21:37, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Speedy delete, patent nonsense. Merge. Context is your friend. —Korath (Talk) 23:22, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Come on, (Alex Rider) tells you it's fiction already. Merge with Alex Rider or keep. Kappa 22:28, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge, but one of the other articles on fictional characters in these books, Alan Blunt, already contains more on this Tulip Jones. What about merging all of them with the main article? / u p p l a n d 08:21, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge to Alex Rider. Megan1967 08:47, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text: Category:Country music genres

title: Category:Country music genres


text:
National Coalition of Abortion Providers

The National Coalition of Abortion Providers (NCAP) was a trade association created to represent independent abortion providers in the United States. Founded in 1990, it was based in Washington, D.C.

Leadership
From its inception in 1990 until early 2004, NCAP was led by its founding executive director, Ronald J. Fitzsimmons. After Fitzsimmons' departure, NCAP was led by President Jane Bovard (2004–2005), executive director Steven Emmert (2005–2007), and then by interim executive director Diana Philip. In 2008, NCAP dissolved and merged with the Abortion Conversation Project to form the Abortion Care Network.


text:
User:Stewstryker

Deleted

title: User:Stewstryker