text:
User talk:Doron/archive

Request for Support
I've filed a complaint against user Jayjg for abuse of Admin powers and Anti-Arab bias. The link [] will take you there. I see that you too have been subject to Jayjg's treatment, and I would appreciate any additional evidence you can provide.A.Khalil 02:46, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Although I may not always completely agree with him/her, I find Jayjg's editorial work to be fairly balanced.--Doron 03:06, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have been subject to Jayjg's Anti-Israel bias. Most of the administrators practice censorship of material that tries to stop making things Anti-Israel.
 * The fact that s/he is blamed for being both anti-Israel and anti-Arab speaks volumes. I find him/her fairly balanced.--Doron 03:06, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You've misunderstood. You are responding to someone who is saying that Jayjg tries to censor material that he considers anti-Israel. No one in their right mind would accuse him of being "anti-Israel"!
 * How should I understand "I have been subject to Jayjg's Anti-Israel bias"?

New article: Women for Israel's Tomorrow
Please consider reading this new article I just created. --AladdinSE 12:05, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Appreciate your fixing my Hebrew
It's very rusty, so in my fervor to eliminate vandalism I mistook a good edit by anon as a prank. Thanks for watching! ←Humus sapiens←Talk 07:02, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

IDF Chiefs of Staff articles needed
Shalom Doron: As you can see at: History of the Israel Defense Forces, there are no articles about six (out of 18) of the Israel Defense Forces' Chiefs of Staff: (1) Dan Shomron (1987-1991); (2) Moshe Levi (1983-1987); (3) Mordechai Gur (1974-1978); (4) David Elazar (1972-1974); (5) Tzvi Tzur (1961-1963); (6) Chaim Laskov (1958-1961). Are you able to provide some history and information about them? Thank you. IZAK 11:23, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * This has been done. IZAK 07:48, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Israel
Hello Doron: Please contact User:Humus sapiens who wishes to start a Wikiportal/Israel See his request below. Thanks IZAK 07:49, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi IZAK (and everyone else here :), Do you think it's time to create Wikiportal/Israel similar to Wikiportal/India, Wikiportal/New Zealand and other Category:Wikiportals? I'm writing this here because it was you who made those wonderful templates and we don't have a portal yet where we could communicate. What do you think? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 05:26, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi Humus, it's only me here, but I will pass your message on to "everyone". Yes, your suggestion is excellent, it is certainly time for what you describe, but I have no experience with Wikipedia portals, and if you know how, go ahead and start an Israel portal and I am sure editors of Israel-related articles will support you and join in the effort/s. Behatzlachah. IZAK 05:33, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi Doron, consider youself invited to WP:WNBI. Spread the word.  ←Humus sapiens←Talk 09:45, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Comment at Talk:Israel
Your response to the querulous anon at Talk: Israel was brilliant! Jayjg (talk) 17:00, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks...--Doron 22:43, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Israel or Palestine for the region?
Hi Doron, please see the heated discussion at Talk:History of ancient Israel and Judah over revisionist attempts to eradicate mention of (ancient!) "Israel" and "Judah" entirely in favor of "Palestine". Please add your views. Thank you. (P.S. why have you not entered your Email to your own User "toolbox"? so that you can be reached at times when plain "talk" is insufficient.) Thanks again.IZAK 11:52, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I thought I did, try now. By the way, I generally prefer "talk" (especially for invitations like this), but feel free to email.--Doron 20:20, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Kafr Qasim massacre
Kafr Qassem is a common Arab pronounciation. I included the note so it would be clarified.

Regards,

Guy Montag 06:38, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Kfar Kassem is a mispronunciation by Hebrew speakers.--Doron 06:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Apology
I'm sorry for being abrasive and I feel bad for it. I'm dealing with some demanding and draining articles at the moment, and I was losing my patience in explaining to you the naming convention and reason as to why "Wikipedia['s] naming policy (generally) use[s] the most common english name" (Raul whould know, he's been an admin longer than I've been a Wikipedian; is the Director of the Wikipedia's featured articles and an Arbitrator) and why the Hebrew abbrevations/acronyms were used for Israeli Security Forces bodies (not of my making; before I joined Wikipedia, I believe). In light of what I've said, I hope you will change the IBP back to Magav. And please *do* contribute to A'man in any way that you can. Any improvement whatsoever counts positively, of course. Sorry again. El_C 11:30, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) ,בברכה
 * Apology accepted :) --Doron 12:08, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Since it strikes me that the defence of your renamings has turned personal (and less than rational, seemingly even spiteful) on your part, I will try my best to avoid any contact with you unless absolutely necessary, but the outstanding issues remain with: a. Your unorthodox approach to naming conventions (not in accordance to English-language notability), for A'man specifically, which you consistently refuse to address (and, honestly, I remained mystified by). b. Your seemingly total unfamiliarity with the use of the apostrophe (or single quote) in Hebrew transliteration (and its phonetic aims), including when mentioned and employed by the very source you yourself have brought fourth. Please do review Wikipedia's no original research policy closely. I'm still sorry for being abrasive earlier, but this really has no bearing on accuracy and notable English usage. I am more flexiable with BP viz. BG  viz. Magav  as all three seem to be in frequent use (but BG is a more correct translation, which is why police.gov.il/english/BorderGuard/Mission features it most prominently in the title and category frames on the left – though of course they stress on it being the combat arm of the Police). And, incidentally, the only work I've done on Magav is placing it in lower case as it is an abbrevation, not an acronym. I note that you placed no notice of renaming it in the article's talk page (perhaps elsewhere?). Sorry, I don't have a lot of time to devote to this, and it has already consumed far more than I wished. As for your complaint that you had to wait over five days; I was, in fact,gone for a few days, and afterwards I did manage to overlook it. For that I offer my apologies, though at this point and considering the tension already built (hopefuly not beyond redress), perhaps in vain. Anyway, as a self-fulfiling prophesy, I will be taking a break from Wikipedia for a while, in part but far from limited to this dispute, I do hope that does not please you. El_C 23:53, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Explanation
Doron, while we await a response from the spokeperson and while my break is ongoing (for which this has been just a poorly-timed last straw), I want to perhaps redress some of the grievences and also try to better articulate my point. I realized that the apostrophe article dosen't address this issue, at the time I thought you were denoucning its existence, so that's all I was concerned with. And it is possible that I am wrong about the transliteration, admittedly, I haven't studied it in many years. English is also non-native to me, and much of what I do is intuitive, perhaps there are some minor errors in the course of this with this being one of them — I have translated published works from Hebrew to English, thus far there has been no complaints (though perhaps the copyeditors took care of minor issue without telling me). At any rate, I am no longer as confident of my point, but I was in light of how the jvlibrary as well as Amazon.com used it in this exact way.

The reason I was so confident is because I thought of naming it that without ever having seen those links, so it all fit perfectly for me at the time. Clearly there is a tendency to spell it that way, which was very welcomed to me since, as said, I could get rid of the (spy) in AMAN, thereby avoiding conflict with Aman while retaining the actual word. Now, it dosen't really matter what the Mossad's official name is, except in so far that it is noted clearly as such in the lead. Naming conventions do not follow the official name, but the most notable one (as is the case with Aman, unlike Tzahal for example). Note, then, how the National Socialism redirects into Nazism and not vice versa; many countless examples (Khmer Rouge PoDC, etc.). So, on that point I'm afraid that I have to stand firm, since it is the convention in Wikipedia, and I fail to see why this needs to be an exception so much viz. other examples (the Mossad, whatever it's called officially, Khmer Rouse, etc.). We still need to know what it's called, the translation I had was not enough (it was descriptive, better than nothing; perhaps it can be included as translation, though I don't see much use in that), but at any rate, having searched it, I'm fairly confident the IDMI is the offical name in English.

So I am comfortable with the current format, though remain open to persuasion (really). About the border guard/border police/magav, I am less sure, we'll see. It seems close enough as per notability in English, so using the official name may indeed be preferable, so I retract on that, and offer my apologies for undue haste. I would like to keep A'man, but if Danny concurs that it is in error, if he concors that the rest of my transliterations are in error, then obviously they would have to go. Perhaps I just suck in the transliterations and never knew it, having copyeditors hide it for me (spare my feelings?), I doubt it's something I really would have picked up on reading the translated works —much of were poetry and prose, so it would scarecly play a role anyway— after the fact (I didn't even think if apostrophying A'man, and wanted to go with Aman, had it not been for Aman; then I tried to make it consistent with the other agencies, perhaps I messed up). I'll let to you and Danny fix these if needed during my break, and I'm trusting both of you to make whatever changes you see fit. I'm confident they will be up to par.

About my break: it is a product largely of disputes elsewhere: Latin American articles, Israeli-Palestinian ones, infamous Govt. of Australia, and others. These were particularly vicious, whereas our dispute, while a catalyst, was just, erm, grumpy, which is to say without malice. The main issue that I took with your position was the naming convention, that Aman is the propper name because of English notability, no matter what the organization calls itself in English. But, if consensus (let say both Danny, Raul, and others) opt for the official name, that's fine. It really should not be an issue to me. I just want to see the article expanded further, in history, organizational structure, current news, etc., really, I should not (therefore, I do not) have any attachment to what it's named. It dosen't make sense. So while I am firm on this point at the moment, I'll bow down to consensus and would not insist. Whatever redirects to what, it still ... redirects, no big deal (I'm just stressed out here, so I acted badly in view of being correct, which was wrong). I should have just waited rather than go on and on. That was a mistake on my part.

I hope that once I get back we can collaborate collegially, even coridally. I have seen your work and I am impressed by it. I streched myself to thin with too many disputes, and as a result committed errors here; misinterperted your own anger at the reversions, which now upon reflection I can better grasp. I have acted and spoke with too much haste and not enough self-criticism and, in certain areas, research. But this was my choice, all of these disputes including this one were a conscious choice on my part, and I bare the responsibility for it. And I am ashamed, I will not try to save face. In a way, I'm almost glad such a lapse took place over such a minor issue, and not the more critical and far more sensitive ones, where I am confident I made no serious errors of this sort (conduct, and potentially, content-wise). I'm only sorry that you became a victim of this, which is unfair for you. You did the correct thing, you made the comment, you waited for more than a courteus length of time. I have no excuses, but plenty of explantions, apperently. Twenty minutes of non-stop writing, my hands hurt. My last appreciable act on Wikipedia for a little while, I hope you will view it credibly and redemptively. And most definitely, I do not wish to "avoid contact with you unless absolutely necessary," I retract that, and again, apololgize (I seem to have that habit, but can I draw lessons from it?) without reservation. Yours, El_C 14:06, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I am really grateful for what you've written and I'm especially glad we can put this behind us and be on good terms in the future. You don't need to be too harsh on yourself, I can totally understand the situation in which you were, and it turns out that admins are still only human after all (congratulations on the appointment, by the way, it is well deserved!). Hope you have a good time unwinding and that you come back soon refreshed and bursting with creativity, or something like that :). Sincerely yours, --Doron 23:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry, Doron, I managed to forget about this. I left Danny a note, and I'm inclined to follow his lead on it, either way. If he concurs with you, I suggest we go for Aman (IDF). If you don't mind waiting just a bit longer (I know, I know, you've waited for how long now...?). Also, thank you for all the kind words. And if you really feel strongly about the name, you can go ahead and change it, I will not revert. I just want to see if Danny agrees with you and whether I (& others who use that) are incorrect. Best, El_C 12:24, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Cities of Refuge
Thanks for the edits to the article I created today. I actually did mean to go back and track down the names of the cities (I suspected Shechem very strongly), since I just grabbed the names from the Catholic Encyclopedia rather than hauling out a relatively modern Bible and looking them up. Thanks again.--Scimitar parley 21:23, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! (I hope I got it right...)--Doron 23:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

List of places in Jerusalem
Thanks for doing such a thorough job on this list. One note: throughout Wikipedia they're spelling it Qiriat rather than Kiryat (as in Qiriat Belz). Should we change this list, or do re-directs (I don't know how to do that)? Yoninah 21:06, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Israel settlement
Thank you for referring me to this article. Very interesting. Yoninah 13:21, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Har Homa
Hi there. I think describing Har Homa as primarily an "apartment complex" is, to say the least, disingenuous. I know it wasn't you that stuck this phrase in, but it just misses the point. As regards Jerusalem, I think the current formulation adequately explains that Israel considers Har Homa to be part of the Jerusalem municipality, even though it is outside the city.

As far as I remember, the villagers of Beit Sahour were trying specifically to prevent the destruction of the forest on Jabal Abu Ghnaim.

Personally, I think there is no need to get into any of the argument about legality or otherwise of Israeli settlements on articles about individual ones, so if you think that should all go, and the article still makes sense, fine. Palmiro | Talk 15:47, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think the paragraph mentioning it is fine the way you wrote it. In the Har Homa article in particular, this subject is worth a paragraph for clarity, given the political dispute and campaigns that took place when the neighborhood was created.--Doron 22:31, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Better yet?
I was thinking of the Gaza Strip, which is why I didn't write West Bank myself. But thinking about it now, I have a funny feeling that something may have changed there lately... :( Palmiro | Talk 23:26, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Image:PalestineAndTransjordan.png
Hi Doran, Can you please add source and copyright information to this image? Otherwise it will eventually be deleted. --Duk 03:57, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Kahane
From Talk:Israel;
 * "Don't kid yourself, less than 10% of Israeli jews voted for anti-zionist parties. Desmond Tutu remains a leftist useful idiot, all the same. Klonimus 04:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I have an uncle who says that anyone who is left of Kahane is a leftist anti-zionist idiot. --saxet 09:04, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I wish he were right.--Doron 18:51, 28 September 2005 (UTC)"

I don't understand your comment. Of course you don't have to explain yourself in any way to me, I'm just curious. --saxet 21:15, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Israel would have been a better place if all those left of Kahane were indeed leftist anti-zionists. Not idiots, though.--Doron 22:08, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Religion in Israel
Hi Doron. I thought you might be interested in improving the Religion in Israel article. Cheers. Jayjg (talk) 22:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Naming conventions for articles on Jews
As there is a great deal of inconsistency in the naming of articles about Jews, I have proposed that they be made consistent. I'd appreciate it if you could commment on this here: Template_talk:Jew. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 23:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Dispute at Mizrahi Jews
Would you mind taking a look at a dispute I am having with User:Al-Andalus at Mizrahi Jews? It's regarding various wordings, and I'd appreciate some outside opinions. Thanks, Jayjg (talk) 17:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Hebrew languages wikiproject
Wrt to Hebrew and naming conventions, the group's not very active, but you should probably join WikiProject Hebrew languages if you're going to work on such articles and proposals. jnothman talk 00:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks.--Doron 07:02, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

שוא נע
You claim that neither שוא נח nor שוא נע is a vowel. I contend that נע is indeed a vowel (thus the use of נע as in תנועה). It never creates a closed syllable, but nonetheless acts like a vowel in many other respects, making a בגדכפ"ת consonant following it רפה, for instance. Please explain your understanding! jnothman talk 10:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 * It's fairly basic, I'm no linguist, I just remember this stuff from highschool.
 * מתוך א. אבן-שושן, המילון העברי המרוכז, מוסף ג', עמ' 921: עיצור שאינו מונע בתנועה מסומן בשוא מתחת לאות... יש שני מיני שווא: א) שווא הנמשך אל התנועה שלפניו -- נקרא "שווא נח", למשל: יצ-חק. ב) שווא הנמשך אל התנועה שלאחריו -- נקרא "שווא נע", למשל: בני, ראה. ... שנים הם הסוגים העקריים של ההברות: א) הברה המסתיימת בתנועה, כלומר, אין אחרי תנועתה עיצור בשווא נח או דגש; היא נקראת "הברה פתוחה"... ב) הברה המסתיימת בעיצור, כלומר אחרי תנועתה בא עיצור בשווא נח, או שבעיצור הסמוך לה בהברה השניה יש דגש חזק... הברה זו היא "הברה סגורה". א
 * Thus:
 * A shva (either nah or na) is not a vowel (tnu'a).
 * A shva that opens a syllable is na, and a shva that closes a syllable is nah
 * --Doron 15:39, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm ready to believe Even Shoshan... Maybe I'll have a look in the library tomorrow. Still, a shva that closes a syllable is nah' is true, but A shva that opens a syllable is na' is not, because a shva never opens a syllable. Nonetheless, what it may be saying is that you often can't determine whether a syllable is open or closed unless you know whether the following shva is na or nah. jnothman talk 08:46, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That's not true -- a shva na opens a syllable. The dictionary gives an example on page 922 in rule §16: יקראו=יק-ראו. The kof has a shva nah and the resh has a shva na, the former closes the first syllable and the latter opens the second syllable.--Doron 08:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

From my experience...
Hi Doron, ...the references put in edit summary are destined to be lost. This is regarding. I suggest put it in the text, it belongs there anyway. Cheers. Humus sapiens 10:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I put (AP, Mar 26, 2002) which seems sufficient to me...--Doron 10:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I think I'm the one who inserted the citation request a while ago - thanks for finding it. Ramallite (talk) 15:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Welcome!--Doron 17:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Iraqi Jews link
I noticed you "fixed" the Hebrew spelling of Iraqi Jews at the Mizrahi Jews article from "יכודי עירחק" to "יהדות עיראק". Now, it was also obvious to me that the spelling was a bit odd when I wrote it as the title associated to the link, but I was quoting the title as it is written on the site itself. I'm changing it back. Perhaps we should add a "[sic]". Al-Andalus 11:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC).
 * No, you've misread, it says "יהודי עיראק". Perhaps the confusion is due to the usage of Rashi script.--Doron 11:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * You're right. I was reading it as modern Hebrew cursive script. The Rashi script didn't even occur to me. Still though, on the site it says "Yehudi" not "Yehudit". 'Al-Andalus 10:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC).

Israeli Arabs
Hi Doron,

I don't know if you are interested, but I felt you might be able to make an informed contribution to this article, which is rather inadequate and suffering from a bit of conflict at the moment. Regards, Palmiro | Talk 13:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Nakba
You are entitled to your view that nakba was orchestrtaed by Herzel 40 years in adavnce or that he created an idology for it but it is only your POV, not more. Wikipedia is the palce for NPOV articles. The Nakba article is not the place to start a discussion on "Mishnato shel Hertzel" I f you rad Hertzel vision "Medinat hayehudim" (which is the reason you live in Israel) you will see that he planned to work according to Int'l law and cooperation with the local poulation.

There need to be anrticle about the Nakba but it does not need to be a distorted one Zeq 10:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Herzl is a prominent Zionist, and since the Palestinian exodus took place during their war with the Zionists, the predisposition of Zionists with regards to the prospect of a Palestinian exodus is highly relevant to the article. The reason why I live in Israel has nothing to do with it and is none of your business.--Doron 12:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

 * As I said, this is your POV. Other do not see it this way. Zionism does not equial nakba (although you may think it is). You want to discuss the "predisposition of Zionists " to ideas about trnasfer - do it on the zionism page. The nakba is a specific event that was part of the war not part of some design by Hertzel. When disussing Hertzel plans in "zionism" or "Hertzel" you will need to bring both his (complete quote) from his diary including other ideas that he has about cooperation with the Palestinians. This "cherrypicking" of selective qyuotes from Herzel diary is not NPOV. Zeq 12:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

seen this: User_talk:Zeq  Zeq 18:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

3RR violation
Doron,

first of all it is discussed. see talk of the article. 2nd please self revert you have violated the 3RR rule. Zeq 12:43, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

well are you going to self revert ? Zeq 12:50, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Category:Cities with significant Arab Israeli populations
Hi Doron: Please see the Vote for Deletion (vfd) for Categories for deletion/Log/2005 December 4. Thank you. IZAK 13:02, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Radhanite
I put this article up for featured status. Your input would be most welcome. --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 22:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Asking for a favor
Hi Doron - I am working on a much improved article about Sh'erit ha-Pletah. I'd like to also have the title written out in Hebrew. Could I trouble you to perform that edit on the article? And of course if there is an article in the Hebrew edition, a cross-link would be great. L'hitraot v'Toda rabah! --Leifern 16:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Re:
Oh good, I'm glad to hear all is well. This place can be so addictive, it's good to take a little break once in awhile. And thanks for your support. : )

1948 Arab-Israeli War
Your views on the ongoing deletion of good sourced content, references and footnotes and the addition of dubious material and original research to this article would be much appreciated if you have time. --Ian Pitchford 22:16, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:PalestineMap.jpg
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Image:PalestineAndTransjordan.png (again)
Hiya, reckons there's a few problems with the map - check the image description page. Cheers, Alphax τεχ 14:32, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Jesse Jackson
Hi, There is a discussion on the talk page for this article regarding his inclusion in the category Anti-Semitic people. You have previously contributed to the discussion and made edits to the article, so I thought I would ask if you would like to join the discussion, so that we can find a consensus. Thanks! Jll 08:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Your contact info
Hi Doron: Hope all is well with you and yours. You have not enabled your Wikipedia Email feature in your "tool box" on the left hand side of your user page. Sometimes editors overlook that when it's a useful way of staying in touch with other editors. Best wishes. Lehitraot, IZAK 14:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I attempted to enable my WP e-mail but it never happened. Doron has been here much longer than me, but it could be that critics of Zionism (even ones living in Israel!) find it difficult to make this feature work it looks as if I may have mis-understood the instructions. I've now recieved a confirmation mail, so presumably it's finally working. Maybe my suspicions (reinforced when nobody answered my complaint, first voiced in the middle of November), are unfounded. PalestineRemembered 22:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:SubaRuins.jpg
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Hi Doron, please check out Suba. Is the sentence in the last paragraph about the present situation still correct? My source for that is 20 years old. --Zerotalk 15:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Image:JerusalemWest1870s.jpg
Hi Doron, I have the whole of Palestine both on paper and electronically at about twice the resolution of that image. Send me mail by the link on my home page and I'll send you more. This particular sheet ends at 34:56E - is that far enough west? Cheers, --Zerotalk 09:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Those Saudis....
Hi Doron... You are absolutely right, in this case the word "Al" (which is actually pronounced aal in Arabic and is written differently than the definitive article al-) means "house of" and is a separate word. Your addition is correct. I don't know if you know Arabic letters, but the difference is "آل سعود", versus "السعود", the former being the correct one. Regards, Ramallite (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, in all cases where it is "aal" not "al-", it is appropriate to change. Let me know if/how I can help. Ramallite (talk) 21:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Golan Heights
Hi Doron. I've a question for you about this article. It refers to Golan Druze and Golan Muslims, leaving there no doubt that the Golan Druze are not to be considered Muslims. As you probably know, this is a tricky question. I'm aware that in Israel it is common not to regard the Druze as Muslims, and the Israeli Druze themselves generally take this view. However, in Syria and Lebanon, the Druze are very keen to emphasise that they are Muslims, and are treated as such for all official purposes. Indeed refusal to recognise them as such seems - in those countries - like bigotry. And of course, the majority of the Golan Druze remain Syrian citizens. Have you any idea as to the views of the Druze residents of the Golan, and if not, any idea how best to deal with this issue in the Golan Heights article? Perhaps it's OK as it is, but to me as someone rather more familiar with the Syrian and Lebanese Druze, it strikes a very jarring note. Palmiro | Talk 13:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. As I said, it's a complex issue, and I apologise in advance for the convoluted nature of my remarks here. I've put some excerpts from a paper on the subject here which might give you an idea of the issues involved, and I'll see if I can find anything else, though whether there is anything to be found directly relevant to the Golan inhabitants I do not know.
 * Incidentally, it's not so much the case that the Druze are generally regarded as Muslims - in Syria, and probably in Lebanon (at least by Sunnis and Shia), I'd say they are generally regarded as non-Muslims, but they are themselves keen to state that they are indeed Muslims (whether this in fact represents their own private self-identification or not, which is a further complication), and both states recognise them as such. My point, I suppose, would be that if the Golan Druze like other Syrian Druze regard themselves as Muslims (and this of course is the point that isn't as yet clear, at least to me), we probably shouldn't imply that they aren't. Palmiro | Talk 14:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, if you could establish that the Muslims/other Muslims are all Alawis that would get us around the issue, as you could simply refer to them as such and the text would therefore no longer imply that the Druze weren't Muslims. Incidentally, many more conservative, if that's the word, Sunnis in Syria don't consider Alawis to be real Muslims either (something the Alawis greatly resent), but that's not really relevant here. Palmiro | Talk 15:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Palmiro and Doron, Pardon me for interrupting ;-). From Tayseer Mara'Ii and Usama R. Halabi, Life under occupation in the Golan Heights, J Palestine Studies, XXII . no, 1 (Autumn 1992), pp, 78-93, we have the following information.  Before 1967 the majority of the population was Sunni, but most of them left.  After the war: "At all events, by July there were but six villages remaining in the entire territory: Majdal Shams, by far the largest, Buqa'ayta, Masada, 'Ayn Qinea, S'hita, and Ghajar. Except for Ghajar, which lay at some distance to the west near the Syrian-Israeli armistic line, the villages were within a few kilometers of one another near the cease-fire lines. And again except for Ghajar, which is Alawite, the remaining villages were almost entirely Druze."  S'hita was destroyed in 1970.  This paper does not explictly answer the question of whether the Golan Druze self-identify as Muslims. However, before 1967 they were not distinct from the other Syrian Druze and so presumably had similar attitudes. After 1967: "The Israelis also banned at the beginning of their occupation the Syrian curriculum and replaced it with one specially designed to inculcate a sense of separate "Druze identity," distinct from the Arab identity-as if members of this eleventh-century offshoot of Islam constituted a nation rather than a religious sect. This policy was refined over the years, and became more pronounced in 1976 with the creation of the 'Educational Committee for the Druze.' Special history books were developed entirely in contradiction with the facts: one reads, for example, of historic ties between the Jewish and Druze communities by virtue of their common minority status, and of traditional enmity between the Druze and their Sunni brothers. The message is driven home in countless ways that the Druze are a special community, superior to and distinct from other Arabs-indeed not Arab at all." (p81). There is also interesting information on the relation between the Golan Druze and Druze in Israel and the WB. Consistent information also appears in Bashar Tarabieh, Middle East Report, No. 194/195, (May - Aug., 1995), pp. 43-47. Cheers, --Zerotalk 10:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

This is quite an interesting issue, and as this discussion progresses, I really think it would be better to move it to Talk:Golan Heights, I'll copy the relevant contents from the user talk pages, if there's no objections.--Doron 10:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that seems entirely appropriate. Palmiro | Talk 18:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

acting president of israel
i agree with your opinion that the temp. position is not a title.

i think that dalia itzik article should be fixed as well, and i don`t have much experience with complex editing such those info boxes and don`t want to do it wrong. asking for your help.

also - do you read\write fluent arabic? amos 04:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

the reason i`m asking you about arabic is to know if you are willing and able to overlook the israel article in the arabic wikipedia. what is your opinion about this subject? do you think it is blanced to the truth? amos 04:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Fetus image
A while ago, you came by Talk:Fetus and said the fetus in the jar image was disturbing. That image has since been removed, but I am trying to get the cat fetus image re-instated. Do you have an opinion regarding this image: Image:Catfetus1.jpg? Thanks for your consideration.-Andrew c 01:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Some pages to look at
Yehuda HaKohen Elie Yossef Karma Feinstein-Cohen Magshimey Herut Zionist Freedom Alliance

Looks like a non-notable group of activists writing vanity pages about themselves. --Zerotalk 11:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Timeline of Military Operations in the 2006 Lebanon War
Hello. I saw that you left a message for User:213.219.16.20 about a related page, so I thought I'd drop you a line for some help if possible. I've just had some interaction with someone (possibly the same person) at the same IP address about changes that had been made to this article. The IP user escalated the temperature of the discussion very quickly, as you will see. I don't want to get into an edit war, and I didn't want to get into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of the conflict, so I'm going to leave the article alone for now and see if I can find some people to have a look at the changes that have been made and express their views. Can you think of an appropriate place to mention this page for others to have a look? Might you be able to have a look yourself? Best wishes, Bencherlite 12:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

RFCs
FYI, RFC requests go on the top of the page, not the bottom. THF 23:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Gideon Levy
In case you didn't realise, WP:BLP says that you can ignore 3RR in order to remove the Gil White trash from Gideon Levy. In fact it also says that I can protect the page, but for various reasons I'd prefer someone else to do it. --Zerotalk 10:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Good to know for next time, though I think I removed it anyway.--Doron 10:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Transliterations
The italicised words following a word written in a non-Roman alphabet are guides for pronounciation rather than transliteration (which is present in the article title). For English speakers "kh" is about the closest you can get to the Khet sound. Number  5  7  11:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstood my point. I am not that bothered about the article title (Mizrahi (political party), which is the transliteration of the name. The italicised bit after the Hebrew (i.e. Mizrakhi) is not a transliteration, it is a pronounciation aid (as is putting "Yerushalayim" after ירושלים). Number   5  7  11:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * But it is written Mizrahi: Look at the article title, otherwise it would be Mizrakhi (political party). The italics are just an aid for pronounciation. Is it clear now? Number   5  7  12:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems that there was (Naming conventions (Hebrew)) but ended up unresolved (not entirely surprising given the endless string of reverts and moves regarding Israeli places and names), although I see Ruakh has just reopened the debate. Number   5  7  12:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Francisco Gil-White mediation
Hi Doron, thought you might like a heads-up on this. You'll recall User:Ryan4, whom you've encountered on a number of articles trying to add inappropriate links to Francisco Gil-White's conspiracy theory website at http://www.hirhome.com. He's previously been reprimanded for this sort of thing by other administrators on his user talk page (User talk:Ryan4) and on AN/I (Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive123). However, he appears to have learned nothing from the experience and has now brought a mediation case, singling me out for some reason. See Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-31 ChrisO. Given your previous intervention in the matter, I've added you as an involved party. My response is at Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-31 ChrisO. Naturally I think the whole thing's a waste of time and I'm encouraging the mediator to dump it on the grounds of Ryan4's bad faith, but it would be helpful if you could add a comment or two so that we can have a record of where things stand. Unfortunately I don't think this will be the last we'll hear from the hirhome fan club - Ryan4 now appears to be coordinating with fellow hirhomers. -- ChrisO 18:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Pls check email. Thanks. --Zerotalk 09:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

"State of Isra"
Hi Doron,
 * ''...You dropped the ל from ישראל in Template:Infobox Israel, I can't fix it because the template is currently protected...

Thanks for spotting! This copy-paste error duly corrected. Best wishes, David (talk) 22:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Salam, Shalom
Hello, I agree with you on the term kidnapped, all these acts in the M.E. are kidnappings, but it isn't right to say one is a kidnapping and the other isn't. It (kidnappings) goes both ways. Thank you for your posts, we try to maintain an NPOV in that article, but run into obsticles here and there. Ahmad Husseini 23:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Israeli Settlement - word in Hebrew
Although Google may show many pages with the word התנחלות - any official, i.e. legal document - such as laws, or more pertinently - military order of the Aluf Pikud - use the word יישוב. --Israelish 22:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment on my talk page
Again, I please ask you to review WP:OWN, which I believe is your main problem from my experience with many of your edits, and to try not to remove sourced material again, which I'm sure you're aware of. Thank you. Amoruso 23:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Please stop your disruptive behaviour. Follow the guidelines (see my talk page) and do not blindly revert things you don't like. Do not say there is a consensus when there isn't either. Thank you. Amoruso 13:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Mail
You have mail :-)! --Zerotalk 13:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Infobox Israel
Thanks for alerting me. I have a question, which I've posed on the Talk: page. Jayjg (talk) 02:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Your recent edit to Tel Aviv (diff) was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to recognize and repair vandalism to Wikipedia articles. If the bot reverted a legitimate edit, please accept my humble creator's apologies – if you bring it to the attention of the bot's owner, we may be able to improve its behavior. Click here for frequently asked questions about the bot and this warning. // MartinBot 20:08, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Israeli Students (cross post)
See Can you help? Todah rabba ابو علي (Abu Ali) 21:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Israel Eldad
Hi, look at what some new IP did to Israel Eldad. It really looks like a copyvio to me but I can't find it anywhere. Maybe a translation of some Hebrew web site? Also the tone is too lauditory. Thanks for looking. --Zerotalk 12:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Images
Yes, I think it encumbers the article and results in an image jam (at least in my browser). We can't illustrate all the monuments of the valley there, you know. It's enough to provide links to well-illustrated articles about those monuments. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way, thanks for adding some superb images to my articles about Kunya Urgench and Itchan Kala. They look much better this way. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I remove the infobox from stubs because it clutters tiny articles, making them an eye sore to look at. I believe it was created and added to all those articles rather unilaterally, without much prior fanfare. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

FYI
Regarding your comments on the community noticeboard re PalestineRemembered, you may wish to have a look at my take at Requests for arbitration/PalestineRemembered/Evidence. -- ChrisO 08:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Missing image Image:MardinOldTown.jpg
is an image page for a missing or corrupt image or an empty image description page for a Commons-hosted image. --Android Mouse Bot 2 07:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Please don't remove sourced material
Removing sourced material like you did in East Jerusalem with your personal WP:OR is not allowed. Please take note before we take procedures in the future. Thank you. Amoruso 14:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Thank you for responding following your violation of wikipedian rules. you can feel freely to discuss the matter, but I find it amusing you feel reverting is wrong and do it instantly and with weak reasoning in summary. Feel free to discuss the issue while not removing whole chunks of sourced material. IF the inforamtion was not sourced or poorly sourced, you could have removed it per the rules, although it's also not advised. Thank you. Amoruso 15:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Please read through the basic pillars of wikipedia if you're not aware of how wikipedia works. Amoruso 16:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

 * No, it means you're not aware of wikipedian pillars. It's disturbing. Amoruso 16:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Source removal
I'm confused as to why you removed the sources from the Israel article. I haven't read through the first source, but the second one clearly states what it says in the article - namely, that if Israel was 100% sure of an Iraqi attack, they would also hand out gas masks to Palestinians. The article also adds that the masks can also be used against Israel (presumably that's why they have to be 100%, and not any less, sure that Iraq will attack). That does not change the facts in the article. I am confused as to why you removed the source. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 19:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Good job with Infobox Weather
Doron, Good job with Infobox Weather. The better we can make infobox weather, the less there will be a need for single use templates like Template:Johannesburg weatherbox or the one on Toronto's page.

A couple suggestions that I was thinking would be good: What about making the table a collapsible table (like Toronto's)? Also, it would be better to include dual automatic unit conversions. By that, I mean if someone inputs the imperial values the metric values will automatically be converted and displayed and if someone inputs the metric values the imperial values will be converted and displayed. However, the conversion could be overridden if needed by entering both values; which is currently how the template is set up now. Infobox Settlement currently has this form of unit conversion. Are these things you could include in your Doron/test page? —MJCdetroit 18:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Yeah I agree - good job. I also agree with the collapsible notion, it would make it look more "swish".  Bennelliott •  Talk  •  Contribs  12:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

 * It looks like you were able to cut down the pre-expand size down to 228K. Is there anything else holding back the retooling of infobox weather? —MJCdetroit 13:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

 * How is the progress with infobox weather coming? —MJCdetroit 02:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The map in http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg
The site was apparently down when I checked it, and now it's up again. Not a big deal. -- Gabi S. 12:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing margin of Template:Peoplepalicanon
Doron - Thank you for adding "margin" parameters to the Template:Peoplepalicanon table. It helps a lot! Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 11:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The template you asked about
The talk page has been restored. It's here. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 23:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Template/Table question
Hi Doron, I was wondering if you knew how to restructure this: Template talk:Collapsible list to have a forced collapse option? Maybe a different class? I'm not sure, so I thought you might be able to help? Let me know. —MJCdetroit 20:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Help for title issue
Hi, I saw you contributed to British Mandate for Palestine. Could you give your mind for a title issue between Palestine and British Mandate for Palestine here. Thank you in advance ! Regards, Alithien 18:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide
I removed your tag since I cited all the context: --Vonones 06:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Your msg
Thanks for your note. I will try to find the source of that image I uploaded 3 long years ago. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Update: I have found the source for the image. It is a 1998 book Israel. An Illustrated History published by Oxford Univ Press, and the credit is given to "United Nations Photo Library". ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Union of North African Immigrants
Thanks for correcting the translation - I thought the name was a bit odd, but I had never come across יוצאי being used for "immigrants" before - I was thinking of using North Africa Leavers, but that sounds equally as bad as what I settled for! Number  5  7  12:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Gaza
If you read carefully the link used as a ref you'll see it points to "Barcellona, Gaza", whereas all other twin cities are listed there in a "city, country" format. This is plainly a typo, should have been "Barcelona, Spain". I'm surprised your first action is to re-insert an error rather than ask me for further explanation. I now leave it to you to delete it. Odedee 21:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Deir Yassin
Some intrepid admin has reopened the Deir Yassin massacre page. I'm wondering, did you ever get around to reading Uri Milstein's Hebrew book "Blood Libel in Deir Yassin" as you were going to? There is still some confusion over his position, so it might be useful if an impartial editor did so. Gatoclass 05:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :) Gatoclass 07:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Operation Defensive Shield
Hi there Doron. User Jaakobu has been inserting an unsourced statement that "135 Israelis were killed by Palestinian terrorists in March 2002" into the intro of this article over the last few days. After being reverted, he eventually came up with a Hebrew source that he says gives a figure of 130 Israelis killed by Palestinians in March of that year. However, Btselem records only 82 Israelis killed in that month.

Since Jaakobu's testimony has proven to be unreliable (he previously added a source which he claimed showed 100 Israelis killed in March when the source actually said from March to May 7) I wonder if you could check the Hebrew source he has now posted to confirm his figure? Gatoclass 16:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Actually, I think you can save yourself the trouble now as we've since located sources we appear to agree on. Regards, Gatoclass 19:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Doron, I did actually find that link and include it in the article myself, unfortunately Tewfik has since tossed out the compromise Jaakobu and I worked out so my work there was a waste of time anyhow :/ Gatoclass 21:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Weather
I was wondering if it would be possible to change the font colour on the "-15°C – -12.1°C" range from black to white. I tried it out here and it's very hard to read. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 20:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I made the change, as it appears Doron's on a wikibreak. Doron, let us know when you come back as I have some questions about merging Infobox Weather with another template.  —  MJC detroit  (yak) 21:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Emblem of Israel or Coat of Arms of Israel
You may be interested in the conversation taking place at Talk:Emblem of Israel. Jon513 (talk) 21:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Doron/archive


text:
Kawaweogama Lake

Kawaweogama Lake is a lake in the James Bay drainage basin in Unorganized Thunder Bay District in northwestern Ontario, Canada, about 35 km east of the community of Savant Lake on Highway 516, 80 km west of Armstrong on Highway 527, and 210 km northwest of Thunder Bay. Except for the northwestern shore, the lake is encompassed by Brightsand River Provincial Park.

Hydrology
The lake is the end of the western branch of the Brightsand River arriving from the direction of Seseganaga Lake and immediately from Sunray Lake; the inflow is at the southwest. The outlet channel at the north combines with the eastern branch of the Brightsand River arriving as the outlet from McEwan Lake to form the river Allan Water. The Allan Water flows via the Ogoki River and Albany River to James Bay.

There is one named island in the lake, Star Island. The line of an esker runs intermittently north-south through the east side of the lake, the continuation of an esker on land to the north of the lake.

Settlements
The (uninhabited) community of Allanwater Bridge is just beyond the north end of the lake.

Transportation
Allanwater Bridge station is at Allanwater Bridge. It is on the Canadian National Railway (CN) transcontinental main line where it crosses the river Allan Water, and is a stop on Via Rail's Canadian train service. The CN mainline also crosses the northern tip of the lake west of Allanwater Bridge.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Kawaweogama Lake


text:
Talk:Nautical mile

Gunter's definition
The article says that "Gunter used Snell's circumference to define a nautical mile as 6,080 feet", and that is very close to modern values. But the article on Snell says that his circumference was too small by 3.5%. So it is hard to see how Gunter was able to get an accurate result. This needs to be verified against additional sources. JonH (talk) 15:05, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * To quote from "Edmund Gunter (1581–1626)" by C. H. Cotter (Journal of Navigation, Volume 34, Issue 3, September 1981, pp. 363-367), "he concluded that a one-degree arc of a meridian is equivalent to 352000 feet. This gave 5866 feet per minute of arc, a figure considerably in excess of the generally accepted value of 5000 feet. ... He drew the attention of English mariners to the need to improve their navigational practice by adopting a more accurate measure for the nautical mile. ... Gunter suggested the division of a degree-arc of the Earth's surface into a hundred parts or 'centesmes'." So it seems that he did not invent the nautical mile, nor define it as 6080 feet, and that someone later must have decided on 6080 feet.  Some revision of the article is needed. JonH (talk) 18:32, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * No-one has provided any sources for this claim that Gunter defined a nautical mile as 6,080 feet, so I still think some revision of the article is needed. JonH (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Physchim62 provided the answer to the problem, but his addition to the article on 22 May 2009 was removed by Cornellier on 10–11 June 2016, who also added your objectionable phase during his major rewrite.
 * Physchim62's addition to the article stated that the nautical mile was an average minute of arc on the Clarke 1866 ellipsoid according to A Dictionary of Physics by Richard Glazebrook, vol. 1, 1922, p. 587, which states "According to the definition adopted in England and the United States, the nautical mile is equal to the length of one minute of arc of a great circle on a spherical earth assumed to have the same area as Clarke's ellipsoid." Neither the year of Clarke's ellipsoid nor its radii are readable. However, Map Projections: A Working Manual by John P. Snyder, 1987, p. 16, states that the radius of the sphere having the same surface area as the Clarke 1866 ellipsoid (its authalic radius) is 6,370,997.2 m, yielding an arcminute of 6080 feet. — Joe Kress (talk) 07:42, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing this out. I cannot find a book or journal linking Willebrord Snellius's calculation of the circumference with Gunter's notion of using a arcs of latitude as a measure of distance. I did find this but it may be a case of WP:CITOGENESIS. The "objectionable phase" has been removed. --Cornellier (talk) 13:21, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

"old definitions are still in use" ... really?
The article says old definitions are still in use [by the RYA who says] "For most practical purposes distance is measured from the latitude scale, assuming that one minute of latitude equals one nautical mile". I wouldn't interpret that as the RYA is saying anyone should define the mile as such. Rather they are saying that one minute of latitude is a good enough approximation "for most practical purposes", a subtle difference, but the article implies otherwise. --Cornellier (talk) 23:10, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course the RYA must speak for itself. However I doubt that the RYA is really interested in technical legal pronouncements, they are more interested in ensuring safe and practical navigation.  For all navigational purposes one minute of latitude is a mile, any difference is trivial compared to the inaccuracies of a log or even GPS.  Indeed, it becomes even less important than that; whether you call a minute one "nautical mile" or one "fibbergist" doesn't matter, you navigate in the historic units! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 23:18, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The article says the Admiralty mile was about 4 feet shorter than the modern definition. According to gps.gov, global average user range error (URE) was 2.3 ft 95% of the time in 2016. NOAA says that some chart data may have originated from Captain Cook in 1778. If using a chart and compass 4ft does not matter in terms of significant figures. However the fact is that the GPSr is using the modern definition. So I'm not sure what the statement adds to the article. Is the RYA saying a 4ft error doesn't matter? Also I don't think one single quote from a book is enough to back up the statement that "old definitions are still in use". --Cornellier (talk) 11:12, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yet again, I cannot speak for the RYA. I don't see what the problem you are having is.  "Despite the existence of precise modern definitions, in the early 21st century the old definitions are still in use.", they are in use.  If you really want WP:CITEOVERKILL I can add two books recommended for the day skipper theory, the official RYA day skipper manual, the official RYA course notes for day skipper and the recommended yachtmaster theory course book, all of whom state explicitly or by direct implication that 1 nm = 1'.  Uncitable perhaps, but I could quote the instructors on such courses.
 * If you don't trust the RYA, then Admiralty charts (who have been publishing charts for 200 years and which are used on 90 % of world shipping) in publication NP5011 states ""On smaller scale charts the latitude border should be used to measure Sea Miles and Cables". Of course you may be of the opinion that UK bodies know nothing about navigation, so perhaps a quote from the US NOAA might be of use: "A nautical mile is based on the circumference of the earth, and is equal to one minute of latitude. It is slightly more than a statute (land measured) mile (1 nautical mile = 1.1508 statute miles). Nautical miles are used for charting and navigating". Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:35, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The day skipper theory, the official RYA day skipper manual, the official RYA course notes for day skipper and the recommended yachtmaster theory course book are all wildly inaccurate (and therefore not reliable sources): One nm is not even close to 1'. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:22, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you perhaps attempting humour? It is the only reason I can think of that in this context you can't tell the difference between a nautical mile and a nanometre, or between a minute and a foot.  Having objected to "one single quote from a book" I have pointed you at multiple references from multiple highly authoritative agencies. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:17, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * My original point, which I perhaps did not express clearly, is as follows: the article states that "old definitions are still in use" followed by a quotation from an RYA manual. With the WP:PRIMARY reference given, the article can only say "an RYA publication uses the old definition". But the current text goes beyond that. It vaguely implies that the old definition is in general use. According to WP:OR, to make a general statement like that, a WP:SECONDARY is required, and not WP:CITEOVERKILL as proposed above. --Cornellier (talk) 15:08, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Oh forget it. Three independant sources on both sides of the atlantic and you still won't accept a fact that any sailor knows. Conversation terminated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martin of Sheffield (talk • contribs) 15:24, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm posting the text in question here:  Despite the existence of precise modern definitions, in the early 21st century the old definitions are still in use. The Royal Yachting Association says in its manual for day skippers: "1 (minute) of Latitude = 1 sea mile", followed by "For most practical purposes distance is measured from the latitude scale, assuming that one minute of latitude equals one nautical mile".

One tenth of a nautical mile is a cable length.

 * —  AjaxSmack 02:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Why 1852m in 1929?
The arcminute based on the Clarke 1866 ellipsoid is 1853.2480 metres, and was used to define the nautical mile by Britain and the US. But the 1929 Hydrographic Conference in 1929 went with 1852 metres. Was this because France and other countries were already using the arcminute at 45 degrees, i.e. 1852? Or did they have newer data? Perhaps the international ellipsoid that was developed by John Fillmore Hayford in 1910 and adopted by the International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics (IUGG) in 1924, which recommended it for international use? I haven't investigate what arcminute it gives. Perhaps 1852 was the generally accepted mean value by that time? --Cornellier (talk) 19:01, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

 * I just investigated that by checking many issues of the Bureau des Longitudes' Annuaire on Gallica. From 1848 until 1909 1852 m was given as the length of a mille marin (nautical mile) without mentioning any ellipsoid (ellipsoids were described elsewhere without mentioning a nautical mile). From 1917 until 1952 it was stated that since 1906 the legal nautical mile for the French Navy has been 1852 m, calling it a "conventional value". Since 1933, this description has been amplified by stating "The nautical mile is in principle the length of the sexagesimal minute of a meridian at a latitude of 45°." However, it notes that that depends on the specific ellipsoid. Their last explanation is the real reason, "If we admit that the meter is exactly the ten-millionth part of the terrestrial quarter meridian, it would be equal to 1851.85 m." That has been true since about 1799. That value, rounded to 1852 m, was rubber-stamped by the 1929 International Hydrographic Conference. — Joe Kress (talk) 03:57, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * If you want to check other issues, a convenient clickable list of all Annuaires is at, accessed by clicking "see all issues" at lower left. After selecting an issue, click on the spyglass on the left edge, and enter the search term mille marin. The calculation is $10,000,000⁄90×60$ = 1851.85 m, thus not dependent on any ellipsoid. — Joe Kress (talk) 06:13, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you to Joe Kress and Cornellier for acting on my question above . Seeing your replies, I Googled for "nautical mile 6080 clarke" and found an article (The Nautical Mile PDF) by A. B. Moody in the International Hydrographic Review dated 1950.  It is a very clear and readable explanation of the history of the nautical mile, and it perhaps has other information which can be used to improve this article. JonH (talk) 14:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Significant figures in conversions
A nautical mile is 1852 metres. Since the SI definition of the metre has nine sig figs, one could in theory convert a nautical mile to 6,102.4 feet and 1.150779 miles. However, WP:OPCOORD states that the larger the object being mapped, the less precise the coordinates need to be, and recommends that a minute of arc be rounded to the nearest metre. Therefore the nautical mile should be expressed as "about 6102 feet" and "about 1.2 miles". --Cornellier (talk) 14:47, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * since no opposition, updated article accordingly. --Cornellier (talk) 13:56, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:OPCOORD has no bearing on the question – it applies only to the size of objects on a map, not the units used to measure them. In this case the article has reference 16 by Astin and Karo giving the legal equivalent as 6076.11549 feet, so that should be in the article, citing reference 16. This is repeated by reference 2 alongside 1.1508 statute miles, so the latter should be in the article, citing reference 2. Reference 10 by Jerrard defines the cable as 608 feet (1/10 nautical mile} at least one of which is wrong, so cable should not be in the article. — Joe Kress (talk) 01:37, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I missed this proposal when first posted. Seeing as the nautical mile is exactly 1852 m, there's a clear justification IMO to quote more than 4 significant figures (not fewer) in any conversion. I think it would be helpful to mention an exact number of miles (or feet) somewhere in the article. For the info box I suggest using 5 sig figs: 1.1508 mi and 6076.1 ft. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:26, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Contradiction
There is just something that doesn't add up between the textual and the graphical versions of the historical definition of a nautical mile presented in this article. They appear to be contradictory. The text (in the lead) states the historical definition to be "the meridian arc length corresponding to one minute ( 1/60 of a degree) of latitude at the equator". However, the image portrays it as one minute of latitude along a meridian. The textual definition doesn't even make sense. If you move a minute of distance along the equator, that would be a minute of longitude and not latitude. Latitude refers to the north-south direction on the Earth. Lastly, as a result of the Earth not being a perfect round sphere (but rather an ellipsis), the polar circumference length of the Earth is not equal at the equator and through the poles and they thus aren't interchangeable to determine the length of a nautical mile.

Something is clearly incorrect here and I wonder which version is accurate. Tvx1 21:20, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

 * Nowhere does it say along the equator. The definition refers to a minute of latitude (i.e., along a meridian) at the equator. I see no contradiction. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:32, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The contradiction is in the textual definition and the visual representation. The visual representation portrays it as random minute along a meridian. The image does not use the equator as either the starting or finishing point of the minute. Tvx1 06:38, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean. The graphic gives the impression of a perfect circle, when it is not. On the other hand it's clearly not to scale, so perhaps readers are expected to take it with a grain of salt. I agree the article would benefit from an improved graphic. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 07:53, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I check the history of the article and I found that the "at the equator" part was without any discussion. Since this part was not in the historical definition, I think it should be removed.Tvx1 17:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * In that case perhaps we need to dig into the correct historical definition. I found 3 links that seem relevant
 * On the history of the nautical mile (1934)
 * The origins of the nautical mile (2008)
 * The nautical mile (2023)
 * Dondervogel 2 (talk) 19:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nautical mile


text:
User:MPerel/Watchlists

Neo-nazi

title: User:MPerel/Watchlists


text:
Bernardo Provenzano

Bernardo Provenzano (31 January 1933 – 13 July 2016) was an Italian mobster and chief of the Sicilian Mafia clan known as the Corleonesi, a Mafia faction that originated in the town of Corleone, and de facto the boss of bosses ("il capo dei capi"). His nickname was Binnu u tratturi (Sicilian for "Bernie the tractor") because, in the words of one informant, "he mows people down". Another nickname was il ragioniere ("the accountant"), due to his apparently subtle and low-key approach to running his crime empire, at least in contrast to some of his more violent predecessors.

Provenzano was part of the Corleonesi Mafia clan who backed mob boss Luciano Leggio in the ambush and murder of Michele Navarra in the late 1950s. In 1963, Provenzano became a fugitive after a failed hit. Provenzano also participated in the Viale Lazio massacre in the late 1960s. Salvatore Riina succeeded Leggio in the mid-1970s, and Provenzano became the second-in-command of the Corleonesi. Provenzano took the reins after Riina and Bagarella's arrests, but the three had already been sentenced to life in absentia in the late 1980s as part of the Maxi Trial and in the 1990s for the two high-profile bombings (the Capaci massacre and Via D'Amelio massacre) that killed prosecutors Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino. After 43 years living as a fugitive, he was captured in 2006, and subjected to the stringent Article 41-bis prison regime until his death on 13 July 2016.

Early years
Provenzano was born the third of seven children on 31 January 1933, in Corleone, Sicily, to farmers Angelo Provenzano and Giovanna Rigoglioso. It was during this period that a series of illegal activities began, especially cattle raiding and the theft of foodstuffs. In August 1958, Provenzano was one of the 14 gunmen who backed mob boss Luciano Leggio in the ambush and murder of Michele Navarra. Leggio subsequently became the head of the Family. Over the next five years, Provenzano helped Leggio hunt down and kill many of Navarra's surviving supporters. In September 1963, Provenzano became a fugitive after the failed killing of one of Navarra's men – at this point, he was not running from the police but from a Mafia vendetta. Leggio said of Provenzano: "He shoots like an angel but has the brains of a chicken". On 10 September 1963, an arrest warrant was issued against Provenzano for the murder of one of Navarra's men.

Provenzano participated in the Viale Lazio massacre on 10 December 1969: the killing of Michele Cavataio for his role in the First Mafia War. The attack nearly went wrong, as Cavataio was able to shoot to death Calogero Bagarella, before Provenzano killed him with a Beretta 38/A submachine gun and earned himself a reputation as a Mafia killer with the attack. However, according to Gaetano Grado, one of the participants who turned government witness later, it was Provenzano who botched the attack, shooting too early.

Leggio was captured by police in 1974, and Salvatore Riina was effectively left in charge. Provenzano became the second-in-command of the Corleonesi, Riina's right-hand man.

Fugitive and later years
In 1981, Provenzano and Riina unleashed the so-called Second Mafia War, with which they eliminated rival bosses and established a new "Commission", composed only of capomandamenti; during the meetings of the "Commission", Provenzano participated in the decisions and the organization of numerous murders as an influential exponent of the district of Corleone and repeatedly protected, with intimidation, the political career of Vito Ciancimino, the main political referent of the Corleonesi.

In 1993 after Riina's arrest, in a meeting at Villabate it was decided that both Bernardo Provenzano and Leoluca Bagarella would take charge of holding Corleone's mandate together. But after Bagarella's arrest in 1995, Provenzano took the reins of the Corleonesi and all of Cosa Nostra; however, he had already been sentenced to life in absentia in 1987 at the Maxi Trial.

In 1997 and 1999 respectively, Provenzano was given life sentences for the 1992 murders of anti-mafia magistrates Falcone and Borsellino.

Evasion and capture
Provenzano frowned upon the use of telephones, and issued orders and communications (even to his family) through small, hand-delivered notes called pizzini. Many of the notes from Provenzano that police have intercepted sign off with religious blessings, such as one that concluded "May the Lord bless and protect you". According to mob godmother-turned-informant Giuseppina Vitale, Provenzano had appeared at a 1992 Cosa Nostra summit meeting dressed in the purple robes of a Catholic bishop. Religious behaviour and language progressively became the prominent features of Provenzano's figure. For example, Provenzano systematically underlined verses from the Bible and took notes of relevant passages to be threaded in his pizzini through otherwise routine instructions regarding daily business matters. He also recurrently thanked 'Our Lord Jesus Christ', and referred to 'The Divine Providence' and 'Our beloved Lord', expressing the hope that 'He might help us to do the right things'. In particular, the expression Con il volere di Dio (With God's will), to date has been counted 43 times, and it often appears more than once in the same piece of communication.

Provenzano used a version of the Caesar cipher, used by Julius Caesar in wartime communications. The Caesar code involves shifting each letter of the alphabet forward three places; Provenzano's pizzini code did the same, then replaced letters with numbers indicating their position in the alphabet. For example, one reported note by Provenzano read "I met 512151522 191212154 and we agreed that we will see each other after the holidays...". This name was decoded as "Binnu Riina".

In October 2003, Provenzano was driven to France, allegedly by Villabate mobster Salvatore Troia, to undergo prostate surgery at a private clinic near Marseille. Provenzano was also provided with fake travel and medical records, under the name of Salvatore Troia's father, Gaspare Troia, a Sicilian baker. Mario Cusimano, another Villabate mobster who was later arrested, began to collaborate with police in 2005, and revealed to the investigators that the identity card used by Provenzano to go to Marseille had been stamped by Francesco Campanella, former president of the municipal council of Villabate, and in September 2005, Campanella also began to collaborate with police who confirmed that he was the one who had stamped the document. The Italian State Police were able to create a photofit of Provenzano based on the descriptions of informants, as well as doctors and nurses at the Marseilles clinic where Provenzano was admitted for surgery.

On 25 January 2005, police raided various homes in Sicily and arrested 46 Mafia suspects believed to be helping Provenzano elude the authorities. Although they did not catch the elusive Mafia boss himself, investigators nonetheless unearthed evidence that the 72-year-old Provenzano was still very much alive and in control of the Mafia, in the form of his cryptic handwritten notes, his preferred method of giving orders to his men. Two months later, another raid took place. It resulted in the capture of over 80 Mafiosi, though Provenzano was not one of them.

Provenzano had been a fugitive from the law since 1963. Until his arrest, the only known photographs of him were taken during the 1950s; the last known photo was taken in 1959: a serious youth with greased hair wearing a suit for a saint's festival. Provenzano was finally captured on 11 April 2006, by the Italian police near his home town, Corleone. A spokesman for the Palermo police, Agent Daniele Macaluso, said Provenzano had been arrested during the morning near Corleone, 60 km south of Palermo and was being driven back to the Sicilian capital. The police were able to pinpoint Provenzano's exact location by the simplest of connections; they tracked a delivery of clean laundry from his family to his farmhouse hide-out.

After his arrest
After his arrest, he was held at the maximum security prison in Terni, and subjected to the Article 41-bis prison regime. After one year, he was transferred to a prison in Novara where he tried several times to communicate through pizzini. The Ministry of Justice then decided to apply "special surveillance" on Provenzano.

In total, Provenzano was given 20 life sentences plus 49 years and one month, and solitary confinement for 33 years and six months.

After the arrest of Provenzano, Salvatore Lo Piccolo and Matteo Messina Denaro were thought to be the new leaders of Cosa Nostra. However, about 350 pizzini were found at Provenzano's hide-out, some of which had indicated that Provenzano's joint deputies in Palermo were Salvatore Lo Piccolo and Antonio Rotolo, capomandamento of Pagliarelli, a Corleonesi loyalist in the days of Totò Riina. In a message referring to an important decision for Cosa Nostra, Provenzano told Rotolo: "It's up to you, me and Lo Piccolo to decide this thing."

Anti-Mafia prosecutor Antonio Ingroia of the Direzione distrettuale antimafia (DDA) of Palermo said that it was unlikely that there would be an all-out war over who would fill Provenzano's shoes. "Right now I don't think that's probable," he said. Of the two possible successors, Ingroia thought Lo Piccolo was the more likely heir to the Mafia throne. "He's from Palermo, and that's still the most powerful Mafia stronghold", Ingroia said.

Two months after Provenzano's arrest, on 20 June 2006, authorities issued 52 arrest warrants against the top echelon of Cosa Nostra in the city of Palermo (Operation Gotha). In November 2009, Massimo Ciancimino, the son of former mayor of Palermo Vito Ciancimino, said that Provenzano had betrayed the whereabouts of Riina. Police sent Vito Ciancimino maps of Palermo. One of the maps was delivered to Provenzano, then a Mafia fugitive. Ciancimino said the map was returned by Provenzano who indicated the precise location of Riina's hiding place.

On 19 March 2011, it was confirmed that Provenzano was suffering from bladder cancer, and he was transferred from Novara to a prison in Parma; on 9 May 2012, he attempted suicide by putting his head in a plastic bag, with the aim of suffocation, but was foiled when it was observed by a prison police officer.

On 9 April 2014, he was admitted into the San Paolo Hospital in Milan.

List of trials

 * In 1987, in the Maxi Trial, Provenzano was sentenced in absentia to life imprisonment together with Salvatore Riina and 17 other mob bosses.
 * In 1995, in the trial for the murder of Lieutenant Colonel Giuseppe Russo, Provenzano was sentenced in absentia to life imprisonment together with Salvatore Riina, Michele Greco and Leoluca Bagarella.
 * The same year, in the trial for the murders of the commissioners Beppe Montana and Antonino Cassarà, he was also sentenced in absentia to life imprisonment together with Michele Greco, Bernardo Brusca, Francesco Madonia and Salvatore Riina.
 * The same year, in the trial for the murders of Piersanti Mattarella, Pio La Torre, Rosario di Salvo and Michele Reina, in which he was given a further life sentence in absentia together with Michele Greco, Bernardo Brusca, Salvatore Riina, Giuseppe Calò, Francesco Madonia and Nenè Geraci.
 * The same year, in the trial for the murder of General Carlo Alberto dalla Chiesa, Boris Giuliano, and Paolo Giaccone, Provenzano was sentenced to life imprisonment in absentia together with Salvatore Riina, Giuseppe Calò, Bernardo Brusca, Francesco Madonia, Nenè Geraci and Francesco Spadaro.
 * In 1997, in the trial for the Capaci massacre in which the judge Giovanni Falcone, his wife Francesca Morvillo and their escort of Antonio Montinaro, Vito Schifani and Rocco Di Cillo, lost their lives, Provenzano was sentenced to life imprisonment in absentia together with the bosses Salvatore Riina, Pietro Aglieri, Bernardo Brusca, Giuseppe Calò, Raffaele Ganci, Nenè Geraci, Benedetto Spera, Nitto Santapaola, Salvatore Montalto, Giuseppe Graviano, Matteo Motisi.
 * The same year, in the trial for the murder of Judge Cesare Terranova, Provenzano received another life sentence in absentia along with Michele Greco, Bernardo Brusca, Giuseppe Calò, Nenè Geraci, Francesco Madonia and Salvatore Riina.
 * In 1999, Provenzano was sentenced to life imprisonment in absentia in the trial against those responsible for the Via D'Amelio massacre, in which the judge Paolo Borsellino and five of his escort men lost their lives; together with him the bosses Giuseppe "Piddu" Madonia, Nitto Santapaola, Giuseppe Calò, Giuseppe Farinella, Raffaele Ganci, Nino Giuffrè, Filippo Graviano, Michelangelo La Barbera, Giuseppe Montalto, Salvatore Montalto, Matteo Motisi, Salvatore Biondo, Cristoforo Cannella, Domenico Ganci and Stefano Ganci.
 * In 2000, he was sentenced in absentia to life imprisonment together with Giuseppe Graviano, Leoluca Bagarella and Salvatore Riina for the 1993 bombings including Via dei Georgofili, in Florence, Milan and Rome.
 * In 2002, Provenzano was sentenced in absentia to life imprisonment for the murder of judge Rocco Chinnici together with the bosses Salvatore Riina, Raffaele Ganci, Antonino Madonia, Salvatore Buscemi, Nenè Geraci, Giuseppe Calò, Francesco Madonia, Salvatore and Giuseppe Montalto, Stefano Ganci and Vincenzo Galatolo.
 * In 2003, Provenzano was sentenced in absentia to life imprisonment for the murder of Mario Francese.
 * In 2009, he received another life sentence together with Salvatore Riina for the Viale Lazio massacre and the death of Michele Cavataio.

Family
Provenzano had been romantically linked to Saveria Benedetta Palazzolo, a woman from a Mafia family from Cinisi; the couple had two children, Angelo Provenzano and Francesco Paolo Provenzano. Palazzolo and her children lived in hiding until 1992; then, in the spring of that year, they suddenly returned to Corleone.

Angelo had been a tour guide in Palermo, speaking about Sicilian Mafia history. Francesco Paolo graduated in 2005 with a doctorate in Modern Languages and Cultures at the University of Palermo.

Death
On 13 July 2016, Provenzano died aged 83 at San Paolo Hospital in Milan from complications from bladder cancer. Refused a public funeral by the church and the Palermo police chief, Provenzano was cremated in Milan, and on 18 July his ashes were buried in his family tomb in a cemetery in his hometown of Corleone.

In popular culture

 * Il fantasma di Corleone, a 2006 film by Marco Amenta;
 * L'ultimo dei Corleonesi, a 2007 film by Alberto Negrin where Provenzano is played by David Coco;
 * Scacco al re - La cattura di Provenzano, a 2007 documentary series;
 * Il Capo dei Capi, a 2007 TV series by Enzo Monteleone and Alexis Sweet, where Provenzano is played by Salvatore Lazzaro;
 * L'ultimo padrino, a 2008 two-part television miniseries by Marco Risi, where Provenzano is played by Michele Placido.
 * Il cacciatore (Cacciatore: The Hunter in English) is an Italian television series (2018– ) based on the autobiographical book Cacciatore di mafiosi by magistrate Alfonso Sabella, in which Provenzano is one of the main Mafia targets.

title: Bernardo Provenzano


text:
Talk:Social Credit Party of Saskatchewan

Untitled
What do we know about this party beyond that it promoted social credit? Just because that the conservative - populist label fits some of the other Socred parties, that doesn't mean that it fits this one. Social crediters are are pretty varied bunch. Many Canadian social crediters came from the left wing of the political spectrum, at least in the early days. The New Zealand Social Credit Party remains on the centre-left of the spectrum to this day in its new incarnation as the Democrats. Kevintoronto 16:30, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

My own knowledge of this party is fairly limited. "Conservative-populist" might be accurate, though there are probably better phrasings available. CJCurrie 22:47, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm... yes, it "might" be right, or it might not be. I would hope that Wikipedia would aspire to a higher standard than just speculation at this point. I'll take it out until someone provide some evidence. Thanks for your comments, CJ. Kevintoronto 13:52, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)


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Vernon Scannell

Vernon Scannell (23 January 1922 – 16 November 2007) was a British poet and author. He was at one time a professional boxer, and wrote novels about the sport of boxing. He was a famous poet of English.

Life
Vernon Scannell, whose birth name was John Vernon Bain, was born in 1922 in Spilsby, Lincolnshire. The family, always poor, moved frequently, including Ballaghaderreen in Ireland, Beeston, and Eccles, before settling in Buckinghamshire. Bain spent most of his youth growing up in Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire. His father had fought in World War I, and came to make a living as a commercial photographer. Scannell attended the local Queen's Park Boys' School, an elementary council school. He left school at the age of 14 to work as a clerk in an insurance office. His real passions, however, were for the unlikely combination of boxing and literature. He had been winning boxing titles at school and had been a keen reader from a very early age, although not properly attaching to poetry until about 15 years old, when he picked up a Walter de la Mare poem and was "instantly and permanently hooked". He frequently read both the poetry of Thomas Hardy and the thrillers of Edgar Wallace.

Scannell enlisted in the army "as a lark" in 1940, shortly after war was declared. He joined the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, and two years later was transferred to the Gordon Highlanders, a part of the 51st Highland Division. The war took him into action in the North African desert. He fought at El Alamein and across the western desert during the Eighth Army's drive to reach Tunisia. Following an assault on an Axis-held hill near Gabes he watched as his Gordon Highlanders moved through the recently taken position, looting the dead, both Allied and Axis. Revolted, he walked away. He was caught and court-martialled for deserting a forward area. Sentenced to three years' imprisonment, he spent six months in one of the harshest military penal institutions in Alexandria before being released on a suspended sentence to take part in the Normandy landings. His war ended when he was shot in both legs while on night patrol near Caen. He was shipped back to a military hospital at Winwick in Lancashire before being sent on to a convalescent depot. Scannell had always very much disliked army life, finding nothing in his temperament which fitted him for the part of a soldier. Following the end of the war in Europe (V.E. Day) he deserted again and spent two years on the run, earning his living with jobs in the theatre, professional boxing bouts and tutoring and coaching, all the while teaching himself by reading everything he could. During this evasive time Scannell was writing poetry and was first published in Tribune and The Adelphi. He was also boxing for Leeds University, winning the Northern Universities Championships at three weights. In 1947 he was arrested and court-martialled and sent to Northfield Military Hospital, a mental institution near Birmingham. On discharge he returned to Leeds and then went to London, where, supporting himself with teaching jobs and boxing, he settled down to writing.

Scannell, a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature, won many poetry awards, including for war poems such as his collection Walking Wounded. A. E. Housman said that "the business of poetry is to harmonise the sadness of the universe" and Scannell quoted this with approval. Scannell's poems, with their themes of love, violence and mortality, were shaped and influenced by his wartime experiences. Scannell was awarded a Writing Fellowship in 1975 as Resident Poet in Berinsfield, Oxfordshire, an experience he recounts in A Proper Gentleman and later, in 1979 he spent a term as Poet in Residence at the King's School, Canterbury. His final collection, Last Post, was published in 2007; he had been working on it until not long before his death.

Scannell married the painter Josephine Higson who survives him, along with four of their six children.

Literary life
He received the Heinemann Award for Literature in 1961 for an early poetry volume, The Masks of Love, and the Cholmondeley Award for poetry in 1974. He was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in 1960 and granted a Civil List pension in recognition of his services to literature in 1981. Stephen Spender wrote to Scannell in a letter in 1953: "you write good poetry and that is all that matters". Seamus Heaney in a letter to Andrew Taylor said he admired Scannell's poems "not only for their sturdy metrical pace and structure, but for their combination of mordancy and a sense of mortality". John Carey, the critic, commented: "Scannell nearly always works on two levels, one realistic and external, the other imaginative, metaphorical, haunted by memory and desire. A master of the dramatic monologue, his work is drenched in humanity. It resounds with memories." Scannell also wrote the verse narration for BBC Television film A House that Died.

He also received a special award from the Wilfred Owen Association "in recognition of his contribution to war poetry". Scannell's best-known book of war poetry is Walking Wounded (1965). The title poem recollects a column of men returning from battle: "No one was suffering from a lethal hurt, They were not magnified by noble wounds, There was no splendour in that company."

Scannell is also the author of a memoir, The Tiger and the Rose (1983). The unadorned narrative covers five years' military service and a brief boxing career. Scannell writes about the conclusion to his army life, "Twenty-five years ago, 1945...was the year I made what might seem like a desperate decision and performed what might appear to be an act of criminal folly, manic selfishness, zany recklessness, abject cowardice or even, perhaps, eccentric courage. I deserted from the Army." The first recipient of the Owen Award, Christopher Logue, author of some of the best war poetry of the past half-century (in the form of versions of the Iliad), spent two years in a military prison, on a charge of handling stolen passbooks. What would Owen say? He'd say: Never trust the teller, trust the tale."

Historian Martin Johnes has used Scannell's 1951 novel The Fight to explore racial attitudes in 1950s Britain. He argues that its depictions of reactions to a black boxer illustrate the diversity of racial attitudes, including outright racism, better than contemporary sociological studies where private assumptions and thoughts were hidden.

Death
Scannell spent the final years of his life living in Otley, West Yorkshire, where he died at his home at the age of 85 after a long illness.

Poetry

 * Graves and Resurrections (1948), poems
 * The Wound and The Scar (Peter Nevill, 1953)
 * A Mortal Pitch (Villiers, 1957), poems
 * The Masks of Love (Putnam, 1960), poems
 * A Sense of Danger (Putnam, 1962), poems
 * New Poems 1962: A P. E. N. Anthology (Hutchinson, 1962), editor with Patricia Beer and Ted Hughes
 * The Dividing Night (Putnam, 1962)
 * Edward Thomas (1963)
 * The Loving Game (1965), poems
 * Walking Wounded – Poems 1962–65 (1965)
 * Pergamon Poets 8 (1970), with Jon Silkin
 * Epithets of War – Poems 1965–69 (Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1969)
 * The Dangerous Ones (Elsevier, 1970)
 * Mastering the Craft (Pergamon Press, 1970)
 * Selected Poems (Allison & Busby, 1971)
 * Company of Women (Sceptre Press, 1971)
 * Incident at West Bay, a poem (The Keepsake Press, 1972)
 * The Winter Man (Allison & Busby, 1973)
 * Wish You Were Here (1973), broadsheet poem
 * Meeting in Manchester (1974)
 * The Apple-Raid and Other Poems (Chatto & Windus, 1974)
 * Three Poets, Two Children: Leonard Clark, Vernon Scannell, Dannie Abse, Answer Questions by Two Children (1975)
 * A Morden Tower Reading (1976) poems, with Alexis Lykiard
 * Not Without Glory: Poets of the Second World War (Woburn Press, 1976), editor
 * Of Love And Music (Mapletree, 1979), poems
 * Loving Game: Poems (Robson Books, 1979)
 * New & Collected Poems 1950–1980 (Robson Books, 1980)
 * Nettles (Robson Books, 1980; as part of New & Collected Poems 1950–1980)
 * Catch the Light (1982), poems, with Gregory Harrison and Laurence Smith
 * Winterlude: Poems (Robson Books, 1982)
 * Funeral Games and Other Poems (Robson Books, 1987)
 * Sporting Literature (Oxford, 1987), editor, anthology
 * The Clever Potato – A Feast of Poetry for Children (Red Fox, 1988)
 * Soldiering On. Poems of Military Life (Robson Books, 1989)
 * Love Shouts and Whispers (Red Fox, 1990)
 * A Time for Fires (Robson Books, 1991), poems
 * Travelling Light (Bodley Head, 1991)
 * The Black and White Days (Robson Books, 1996), poems
 * Collected Poems, 1950–93 (Robson Books, 1998)
 * Feminine Endings (Enitharmon Press, 2000), poems
 * Views and Distances (Enitharmon Press, 2000), poems
 * Of Love & War: New and Selected Poems (Robson Books, 2002)
 * Incendiary
 * The Gunpowder Plot
 * House for Sale
 * Moods of Rain
 * A Case of Murder poems
 * Uncle Albert
 * Hide and Seek
 * Last Post (Shoestring Press, 2007), ISBN 978-1-904886-67-9
 * A Place to Live (The Happy Dragons' Press, 2007)
 * Death of a Snow Man
 * They Did Not Expect This
 * The death of a snowman

Autobiography

 * The Tiger and the Rose (Hamish Hamilton, 1972)
 * An Argument of Kings (Parkwest, 1987)
 * A Proper Gentleman (Robson Books, 1977)
 * Drums of Morning – Growing up in the Thirties (Robson Books, 1992)

Fiction

 * The Fight (Peter Nevill, 1953), novel
 * The Big Chance (John Long, 1960), novel
 * The Face of the Enemy (Putnam, 1961), novel
 * The Shadowed Place (1961), novel
 * The Big Time (Longmans, 1965), novel
 * Ring of Truth (Robson Books, 1983), novel

Other

 * How to Enjoy Novels (Piatkus Books, 1984)
 * How To Enjoy Poetry (Piatkus Books, 1983)
 * A House that Died Verse narration to BBC TV film

title: Vernon Scannell