text:
Talk:Eight-ball

Differences between US and UK and AU
It states that the pockets on a US table are larger than the UK table. I seem to remember that the ball sizes are different too, including the size difference between the cue ball and the others. In the UK the cue is smaller than the other balls - I want to say it's the other way around for the US, would that be right? Can't quite remember. violet/riga (t) 19:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * It depends a lot on where you're playing. Most pool halls and bars in the U.S. have a cue ball slightly smaller than the rest so as to permit its return in the case of a scratch without returning the other balls to play. Tables that are not pay-per-play, however, seem to have a cue ball approximately the *same* size as the object balls. If it's any bigger, I can't tell, and I can see the size difference on the pay-per-play cues. —chris.lawson (talk) 00:13, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * That's not actually accurate. US pool halls, which don't typically have coin-op tables, use regulation-size balls.  US bars with older coin-op tables tend to either have an oversized cue ball, or a normal-size but denser one made of ceramic, never a smaller one.  Modern bar boxes use regulation size/weight cue balls with an iron core that is acted on by a magnet to separate the cue ball from the other balls in the return mechanism.  Anyway, this stuff is all covered in the Glossary now. —  SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * In the UK, playing in pubs/clubs on the small table (generally 7ft X 4ft) the cue ball is slightly smaller for the same reason. So object balls are 2ins and the white 1-7/8ins (scottish8ball.com) [--anon.]

 * Sounds plausible to me for UK tables, but no major US table manufacturer uses a mechanism with smaller cue balls. Whatever WEPF says about regulation English-style tables should probably be added to the Eight-ball section Blackball (pool) under "Equipment". —  SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)  Updated 19:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC) after article split.

 * After a foul stroke in the UK, the offending player will miss a turn - known as the "two shots" rule. A common exception to this is "one shot on the black", that is a player who has only the black left to pot does not get this advantage. The "one shot on the black" rule doesn't appear in (EPA) World Rules or BAPTO Rules, anyone care to give a citation? (other than "my mate down the pub says...."). --129.67.127.19 00:32, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * A lot of people at Trinity Hall play it as such...it seems to be the kind of thing that's a common rule for social games but not in any of the official rules. 128.232.250.254 23:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC) darn forgot to sign before. So finding a published source for this may be difficult.

 * It's been moved to the "Other rule variants" section, since it can't be sourced in any major rules. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * "If a player has two shots, and pots a ball with the first, he now has one two shot left."
 * i think this should read

 * "If a player has two shots, and pots a ball with the first, he now has one shot left."

 * Mainland Europe seem to have cueballs much larger than the object balls. It's nearly always smaller in the British Isles. In UK pubs, the balls are nearly always (but not strictly) reds & yellows on a green cloth. The 8 ball was always numbered but I've seen plain black balls introduced in recent years. Other colour varients are on the increase to go with the seemingly varying cloth clours ie a red cloth may have blues and yellows. Stripeds & solids are still also found occasionally but the dimensions of the British pub table make it hard to play the extra games ie nine ball, meaning there's no advantage of having them. Home tables traditionally always had stripes & solids. It now varies by manufacturer and whether the table pays tribute to British or American tables in regard to size and pocket dimensions. You can get American style table in a few places here in Liverpool. Both tavern and taunament. I have to say they're much easier to pocket balls on then their British cousins. [Gary Parks]

 * I must also like to add that I've never heard the terms 'bigs' and 'smalls' to define ball caste in the UK. At least not here in the Liverpool area. Stripes are always stripes. Solids are alternatively called spots but as often as not are still called solids. [Gary Parks]

 * All of those topics are moot, and are now handled at the Glossary. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Despite what the main article says about "in England and Australia", having played 8 ball in Australia all my life I have never ever seen it played with unnumbered coloured balls. It is always numbered balls.  The "bigs" and "smalls" is always used in Australia to decide which balls are yours and which are your opponents.  However it never occured to me that this was because of the numbers - "bigs" are those with big white circles with the number in it, and "smalls" are those which small white circles with the number in it.
 * Gtpdspin 14:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

 * That's only true of the balls manufactured by certain companies; some of their competitors put the stripes' numbers on the colored stripe itself, not in the "big circle"; however I can't see any particular reason not to add that possible derivation in the Glossary - the idea seems to be fairly common. However, this is not a discussion for this talk page any longer, but rather for the one at the Glossary article.  Anyway, it doesn't say "England and Australia" here any longer. —  SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * "Whether a ball contacts the rail, or the player pots one of his own balls, is irrelevant in deciding a foul. Instead, a legal move is one where the cueball first hits one of the balls in the player's own group, and does not pot the cueball, the black ball or any of the balls in the opponent's group."

 * This line isn't true? World rules (which are linked in the next paragraph) states:

 * "On all shots, the player must:-

 * Cause the Cue Ball's initial contact with a ball to be with a ball "On",
 * AND THEN
 * Pot a ball "On" OR Cause the Cue Ball or any Object Ball to contact a cushion." [Cf]

 * The distinction that needs to be drawn here is between a) Intl. Std. Rules, which are tournament rules based largely on the BCA rules, and familiar in whole or in part to serious, competitive players, on the one hand, and growing in popularity, especially in pool halls and even in pub-based leagues; and on the other hand, b) informal bar/tavern/pub "rules" which vary from country to country, region to region, town to town, even bar to bar. In North America at least (I cannot speak for the .uk or .au) the whole must-hit-a-rail rule is completely unheard of among bar players (other than some league players, whose leagues have adopted this rule from the BCA and other large-scale leagues like APA/CPA, VNEA, etc.)  Indeed, the "rules" in bar pool are so inconsistent and so different from "canonical" eight-ball that they should not really be considered the same game at all ("stripes and solids" or "highs and lows" are two alternative names that can and have been applied, as well as "bar pool", "tavern pool", "pub pool" and "bar ball").  At any rate, I think this article should stick to documenting the "real"  Intl. Std. Rules, and then in a different section perhaps talk about regional and informal (tavern) variations.  That might even be better as its own article, as it could get very, very long in no time at all.  I could easily write several pages on the differences between typical bar rules and various leagues in just the last three cities I've lived in! Some of the differences are win-vs.-lose radical. —  SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Agree. Upon reading the article I found it very messy. Maybe splitting the article into UK/US pool would make sense. I personally consider them different games purely based on the table/pocket size. But further to that, you probably get enough variations in each game to make a full article out of it. When I have seen rules on the wall in a pub, pool hall or snooker hall, it is usually a copy of old EPA rules or world rules. Occasionally it is another set, but the article should surely be based on the actual rules, with ideas such as 2 shots carry and 1 shot on the black (neither of which come up in either set of rules posted by the EPA) in a section marked variations. [Cf]

 * I also believe that there should be seperate entries for US 8-ball and UK 8-ball as the games are totally different! I think its important that each version of the game warrants its own page.

 * Personally, I don't like UK 8-ball (and I'm English!) I refer to it as "pretend" pool or "baby" pool. Who invented UK 8-ball and why? To me its just something that won't take up too much space in a pub. The most irritating thing I find here in the UK is that many people play UK 8-ball rules when playing on American tables with "Spots and Stripes" (or "bands and solids" if you prefer) set of balls. Most don't know how to play US 8-ball in England (the ball in hand rule goes right over their heads for instance) or even if they do, I've heard the following excuse time and time again: "Well, we are English and we are playing in England, so we're playing English rules". I suppose as long as both parties agree prior to a rack, you can play/make up any rules you want though.(AMD)

 * Right. Anyway, all of the above topics up to the part about adding English-style standard (sourced) table dimensions are now moot; the article has already addressed them all. —  SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)  Some of it has been moved to Blackball (pool). —  SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Rules changes
Check for the new 2006 rules and their changes. They will be in effect until 2008. 70.111.251.203 03:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Is there anything specific in them that needs to be addressed here? —  SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * PS: Perhaps more to the point, this article uses the WPA World Standardized Rules, which are reprinted by BCA. As far as I know, the article is presently using the 2006 or later rules, so I'm not seeing that there's an issue. If you (or whoever) can identify as specific problem, I can fix it easily, as I have the 2008 rules (the newest edition; a 2009 version was not published, as nothing changed) in hardcopy right here. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

 * However when it comes to UK 'casual' pool, one rule change that has been poorly received is the ruling that when potting the white ball on the break, without potting any other of the balls, whether it be red or yellow (as in the British game) or solids and stripes, as us in the US are more used to, then the game is lost. Usually when this occurs, the competitors will merely accept a re-break, although if it is a competitive game for money, the breaking side will lose the game. 70.111.251.203 18:20, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I believe you (the same "rule" exists in some variants of US bar pool, too), but I have a feeling that the entire multi-subsection section on colloquial rules may get axed per WP:V, because most of it is not only unsourced, it's essentially unsourceable - no one writes rule books about US or Canadian or UK or Botswanan or whatever pub/bar pool. PS: Dang, I thought I had a pretty stable IP address! Almost 4 years is quite something. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Picture of the rack
by my working, the 13 and the 4 should be changed in the rack. That is, excluding the front ball, the eight ball and the middle back row ball, the balls should go big-small-big-small-big-etc (or spotted-solid-spotted-solid etc). --Midnighttonight 04:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I have never seen a rack set up as you describe. AFAIK, the setup in the article is correct. 129.67.126.51 17:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually both forms of racking are correct. It can be the way shown or with the 13 and 4 balls switched, which forms a big check of balls and a little check of balls. The "big-check, little-check" version is the one in Blackball (see the bottom of the article). The one shown in the picture is from the EPA rule set I think, since they allow for both. In BCA rules, all that is required is 8-ball in the middle and the left corner and right corner balls to be one solid, one striped. 71.250.9.119 13:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually the only rule is that the 8 should be where it is (in the center) and the back left and back right must be opposite (ie. one big/striped one small/solid) [--anon.]

 * The article text just needs to be updated with more detail on the racking specifics in the two major rulespheres. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The 13 and the 4 should be swapped, stop confusing people. Check: [] and [] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.253.209 (talk) 05:16, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The first of those links clearly says, "the other balls are placed in the triangle without purposeful or intentional pattern". Phil Bridger (talk) 11:11, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The quote from the first link "the other balls are placed in the triangle without purposeful or intentional pattern" doesn't mean that you can place the balls in any pattern or order you want. It means that the official rack of the balls was designed and set up "without a purposeful or intentional pattern" the people that made the rules tried to make the rack go, small, big, small, big but you can't make all the balls like that so they made it how they did. The official rack ISN'T small, big, small, big. It is like you see in the pictures, I really don't get it though, whats the confusion?? just look at the pictures and I even gave you multiple official sources that confirm it. IF there is an alternative way of racking the balls, so what? why would you want to push so hard for the alternative way anyway, just put the official way and make a reference to the other one if you really want. It's been some time since i first gave you the sources and it still hasn't been changed, please change it now, and make this issue resolved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.253.209 (talk) 11:02, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that, aside from specifying that the 8-ball and back corner balls be one of each suit, the other balls are placed entirely at RANDOM. Some of you may be interested in knowing at the 2009 U.S. Bar Table Championships in Reno, "pattern racking" was strictly prohibited. Specifically, players could not adjust the balls at all after they were in the rack. Alternating "stripe with solid" as so many players are prone to do when fidgeting with the ball position, was NOT allowed. During the players' meeting before the 8-ball event, the director even voiced an example, something like the following. "If, when you throw the rack up there and all the stripes are together and all the solids are together, do NOT adjust the ball positions; it is random, except for the 8-ball and the back corner balls." Also, in the American Poolplayers Association (APA) rules, the back corner balls do not need to be of different suits, these are also random.Nightchalker (talk) 17:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

 * This article is not at present covering league rules, only WPA World Standardized Rules. At some point I plan a table outlining differences between major league rulesets, but this will be a long and tedious job. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Pocketing the 8 and another ball
Someone has vandalised this page (not me) I am reaserching pool. What happens if a player still has to pocket a number ball and a 8 ball, and thy do them both in one shot? this happened to me this afternoon, i reckon the guy who did it should lose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.238.70.236 (talk) 10 May 2006
 * As the article makes clear, that is a loss of game; the 8 cannot be pocketed on the same shot as one's last object ball. Pocketing the 8 legally and also dropping an opponent's ball in the process, before or after the 8, is not an issue (except in information Canadian rules). —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 07:34, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Blackball
Is there any more information on Blackball? I know it is relatively new, but how many people are adopting it and such? 71.250.9.119 13:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

 * It is now covered in a little more detail, where it does not disagree with English-style WEPF rules it is based on. Any further development should probably see the entire "English-style rules" section become a new Blackball article; it's very clear that American- and English-style (a.k.a. blackball) "eight-ball" rules are really two radically different games, albeit the latter derived mostly from the former, with snooker and English billiards influences.
 * Blackball (pool) now exists. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Terminology Section
Is the Terminology section necessary? There is a whole article with just Pool/Billiard terms already. Either add to the list and mark a reference or link from that article to this one. 71.250.9.119 13:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I added the regional term "English" as in "Use your English on that shot!"
 * (Pygmypony 18:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC))

 * The Terminology article should be merged into this article.
 * (Pygmypony 18:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC))

 * Other way around by long consensus. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Rule list
I've read this article a few times but I can't see an easy to follow rule list with penalties, I know there are lots of different sets of rules and penalties but it would be nice to see one version (a pub rule set at least...) eg. If the other players ball is sunk when taking your shot, an extra shot is given to the other player. (Bouncingmolar 07:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

 * Fixed. Again, as to English-style/blackball rules, that really eventually needs to be its own (and better developed) Blackball article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Please review: Consensus and consistency needed on spelling to prevent ambiguity & confusion
Especially for nine-ball but also for eight-ball, one-pocket, and even snooker, etc., I firmly think we need to come to, and as editors enforce in article texts, a consensus on spelling conventions and implement it consistently throughout all of the cue sports Wikepedia articles. I advocate (and herein attempt to justify) a system of standardized spellings, based on 1) general grammar rules; 2) basic logic; and 3) disambiguation.

This is a draft submission to the active editor community of billiards-related articles on Wikipedia. It is intended to ultimately end up being something like " Wikipedia:[something:]Billiards/Spelling guidelines", or part of an official Wikipedia cue sports article-shepherding Project, likely it's first documentation output.

Anyway, please help me think this through. The point is not for me to become world famous™ for having finally codified billiards terms and united the entire English-speaking world in using them (hurrah). I simply want the articles here on pool and related games to be very consistent in application of some new consensus Wikipedia editing standards about spelling/phrasing of easily confusable billards terms that may be ambiguous to many readers in the absence of that standard.

Compare: That's the super-simple "use case" I make for this proposed nomenclature. If you think that the differentiation didn't cut it please TELL ME, and say how you would improve it.
 * 1) "While 9-ball is a 9-ball game, the 9-ball is the real target; pocket it in a 9-ball run if you have to, but earlier is better." (Huh?)
 * 2) "While nine-ball is a nine ball game, the 9 ball is the real target; pocket it in a nine ball run if you have to, but earlier is better." (Oh, right!)

So, here's the article draft so far (please do not edit it directly! Post on its Discussion page instead; thanks.): User:SMcCandlish/Pool_terms

(PS: This intro text is repeated at the top of it.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

 * This is now "live", at WP:CUESPELL. Marking this topic resolved here, since WP:CUESPELL has its own talk page.

WikiProject Cue sports
WikiProject Council/Proposals [It is now live at WikiProject Cue sports! 23:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)]. Any comments, or better yet interested editors to participate? — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 01:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

 * This is now "live", at WP:CUE. Marking this topic resolved here, since WP:CUE has its own talk page.

Pool redirect
Pool (game) redirects here, but I always thought that eight-ball was just one version of pool. Shouldn't that redirect lead to Pocket billiards instead?-- Azer Red  Si?  22:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Fixed. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Massive edit
I've done a major rewrite, to take care of a lot of non-encyclopedically written additions, and to vastly clarify the difference between American-style eight-ball, and UK-style blackball (which should probably really be forked into its own article). Loads of clarification, and large-scale wikillinking of Glossary terms, new sources, removal of redundancies, addition of more colloquial rules variations in the section for that, you name it. It would be helpful if someone more familiar with Commonwealth English were to review the stuff about blackball/UK eight-ball and the cited rules sources I've tried to summarize, and the associated major entries in the Glossary (especially at and related nearby entries.) —  SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Much of this material has moved to Blackball (pool). — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

This document still needs a MASSIVE edit to be written in plain English. Many of the sentences are written backwards and are ambiguous. I have assumed the principal author is not English because of the standard of the grammar. If I knew the rules, I'd re-write the article myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.239.141.120 (talk) 23:06, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Pantsing/down trou
I think the New Zealand entry is wrong, and that the conditions for down trou are the same in NZ as they are in Australia. I don't think anyone would be called upon to down-trou if they'd run every ball but the 8 before their opponent made a shot, then the opponent ran all his/her balls and the 8. Regardless, we need sources for both of these. I believe the film Stickmen can be used as one of them. I'll have to watch it again and observe the specifics of the pantsing incident. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Yeah you're right - to down trou someone, playing NZ informal rules, you have to sink all your balls, plus the 8, while your opponent still has all their balls on the table.

 * Indeed. Stickmen confirms this and is probably a reliable source on this matter (while it is not a documentary, it was written and produced by New Zealanders, for the pool-savvy segment of the NZ audience; it wasn't even available at all internationally until about a year ago). I will update the article. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Number in name
I think some reference should be made to the fact that unlike Three-ball and Nine-ball, (which are actually played with 3 and 9 balls respectively), Eight-ball refers to the game-play significance of the 8-ball, not the number of balls in play. (It's often confusing to new players that "Eight-ball" actually uses more balls than "Nine-ball", despite the names.) Lurlock 17:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's even a little more complicated than that. Nine-ball and seven-ball are named for both the number of balls and the, while eight-ball is named only for the money ball, meanwhile three-ball and fifteen-ball are named only for the number of balls. —  SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 00:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * PS: I agree that the article should clarify this. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 08:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Australian in-off rule
Aside from the fact that the assertion isn't sourced, it's been asserted that the Australian common pub rules have it that potting the cue ball off the 8 ball ever is a loss of game. Clarification needed: —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Is there any source for this at all? Even a local league rules document or something?
 * 2) Does this truly mean "ever" or only when the 8 ball is hit first (or even only when I'm "on" the 8 ball)? I.e., if I'm aiming for the 9, hit the 9 (first), then carom the cue ball off the 9 and then off the 8, but alas, accidentally pot the cue ball into the side pocket (regardless what happens to the 9 ball so long as I did not early-pocket the 8 ball), is that a .au loss-of-game?

 * Never heard of that one before. As far as i know, pocketing the 8 earlier than required, or pocketing the 8 on a foul is a loss of game only.Baggers89 (talk) 07:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Will remove it then. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed Brazil material
I removed the following unsourced addition about Brazil, as it appears to be confused:

"In Brazil,...in some regions, the two groups of target balls are decided by their number being odd or even, not the ball being stripped or solid (that is, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 and 14 vs. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13; the 15-ball takes the place of the 8-ball)."

That would make what is being discussed there a form of fifteen-ball not eight-ball, by definition. I don't think there is a fifteen-ball article yet, though I intend to add one fairly soon (and fully sourced). —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess "fairly soon" turned into "whenever"... Too much to do! —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Hola, amigos (variations in Spain)
I'm creating the spanish article about 8-ball. As I think my english is not good enough to do it, I inform you that I have included the variations in my country, Spain. If anyone undestands spanish, you're invited to complete even more this fantastic article... Cheers :) --88.14.138.126 20:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * My Spanish is not very good, but I will see what I can do when I have the time. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

English-style rules
I'm sorry I know this has already been discussed but this is section is wrong!

There are three sets of rules played in the UK: World Eight Ball Pool Federation Rules sanctioned by the EPA   BAPTO rules which are bigger in Scotland and Blackball which is fairly new and not heavily played. The EPA does not sanction Blackball rules, Blackball as a game is not widely known, 8 ball pool is! I will slightly alter this in a couple of days if no one objects! --Watford147 (talk) 16:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you may be at the wrong article. All of this stuff is covered at Blackball (pool), which also covers "8-ball pool".  That articles does need work, as it does not cover BAPTO at all.  If there is something wrong in the UK section in this article, by all means fix it, but this is the eight-ball not 8-ball pool article; they are different but related games.  If BAPTO rules are actually for eight-ball, played with what you call kelly pool balls (i.e. numbered solids and stripes), then any BAPTO material probably does belong here.  From everything I can figure out so far comparing their rulesets, WEPF/EPA 8-ball pool and WPA blackball have such minor rules variations that there is no reason not to simply distinguish between them at the blackball article.  If WEPF also promulgates stripes-and-solids eight-ball rules, then, yeah, we do have an issue here. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 16:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Weird rule
I don't know the rules, but this one appears to stand out in the Winning section due to the typo's, lack of capitalization and wording: "if you make the oppisites player ball in and then your 8 ball you loose." It should either be fixed, or removed if it doesn't belong here. --DanielPharos (talk) 15:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have removed it. The rule as stated was technically correct (well what I could make out given its poor wording) but randomly stated and placed.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Technically correct in what? I have only encountered this in bar pool, and only in a few places. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 20:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Technically correct in that if you contact the opponent's ball first when you are shooting at the 8 ball, that's a foul. When you foul when the 8 ball is the ball on, you lose if the 8 ball is pocketed (and regular ball in hand results if it is not pocketed just like any foul). The rule was so poorly stated, I'm not sure if the user meant the opponent's ball was hit first, but it could mean this, which would have made it correct. Anyway, once you're trying to figure out what the hell someone is talking about, because they write so unclearly that multiple interpretations are possible, the game for keeping that edit is already lost.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 06:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Right! —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense
I don't know much about pool, that's why I looked up this article in the first place, but what's all that stuff in the UK section about 'doing a Blair', I assume it's a load of bollocks, but since I don't know I'll leave it for someone who does to remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.33.114.129 (talk) 12:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No such material remains in the article. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Most common in the world?
"Played on a pool table with six pockets, eight-ball is the most common pool game in the world and is so universally known that beginners, often aware of no other pool games, ubiquitously believe the word "pool" itself refers to eight-ball." References for this? This also needs to be changed as "the world" implies that all countries would conform to the above - not true. Mention "pool" anywhere in England and people will assume you mean "blackball" (a name I've never heard it called - literally everyone in england calls it pool). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caseykcole (talk • contribs) 03:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've cleaned up the lead some to address these issues. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

League rules section needed
An entire section needs to be added on VNEA, APA, BCAPL, ACA, ACS, TAP, IPT and other league rules variations, where the league in question is notable enough for an article (all just mentioned are, but several do not have articles or even sections in other articles yet). Doing this will forestall problems like the recent insertion of extraneous APA rules details into the WPA World Standardized material. I think it fairly likely that I'll be the one to start this section (just because I tend to do stuff like that, and WP:CUE doens't have a lot of active editors, but if someone else wants to do it, then please do so; I have many fish to fry. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 03:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Sao Paolo
I have removed the following from the Brazil section of the article, since it does not make any sense in English:

Also in São Paulo region is common to play with one player pocketing pairs and the other pocketing unpairs with the 1-ball or 15-ball as the last one.

"Unpair" is not a word, and "pair" is ambiguous. If someone knows what this actually is supposed to mean, please enlighten us. —  SMcCandlish  [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Indented line I guess he meant even-numbered and odd-numbered balls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.214 (talk) 23:54, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Eight-ball rules sub-article
I think it would be a useful split at some point to move the rules to a separate Eight-ball rules article (c.f. Snooker rules, etc.) This article is long-ish. After laying out the world standardized rules, I think it would be particularly instructive to set up a table with columns that differentiated where other rulesets diverge from it. Have WPA rules (used by BCA, BCAPL, USAPL, ACS and many other leagues) first, followed by APA and VNEA, and maybe TAP. Blackball is probably too divergent to include, as it would conflict with almost every rule. :-) —  SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 08:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Why are the balls numbered?
It would be nice to be able to find some information on the origin of this design of the balls. The only form of pool I've heard of in which the numbers have significance is nine-ball, but if it were to mimic that game, I somehow doubt 9-ball would be played with the first 9 balls of an 8-ball set.

I can imagine there being a form of pool in which each player's aim is to pot his/her balls in order: spots from 1 up to 7, stripes from 15 down to 9, and then in each case the 8 to complete the sequence. For all I know, this variant may have been thought up independently by many, but has any such game ever been officially recognised by anybody? -- Smjg (talk) 21:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Check the game called Rotation (pool). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:41, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

 * There are many games which use the numbering of the balls. As Baseball Bugs says above, rotation, then there's Kelly Pool, Chicago, Cribbage, ten ball, seven ball, six ball, Mister and Mrs., Baseball pocket billiards... and well the list goes on and on. Numbered balls first started being used for the game of hazards in 1773 which was the forerunner to pool. In it, all the balls were white but they were numbered. If a player made a winning-hazard (pocketing a ball—as opposed to a losing hazard: pocketing the cue ball intentionally on a carom), the player scored the numerical sum of the ball's number.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:17, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * And I left out perhaps the most obvious one, Straight pool, in which without the numbers you would be forced to say things like, "That one with the smudge that looks like Madonna, in the side pocket." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:32, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Straight pool (my favorite of all pocket games) could be played without numbering: "yellow stripe corner" (but it would be painful), while many other games such as those I listed require numbers as part of the score or the rotation.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:58, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeh, colors would be sufficient. Or just numbers, for that matter. Anyway, here's hoping we enlightened the OP a little bit. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:02, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I really think 'Eight-ball' Should re-direct to the cocaine measurement
I mean really, who is really looking up 8ball for the '8ball'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.152.141.66 (talk) 11:48, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

What are the numbers for?
This article does not state what the numbers are for. Presumably the balls have to be potted in order, or this game would be the same as what we call pool in England. If that is correct, are balls 9 to 15 potted in ascending or descending order? The article needs to be amended to include this information. Even if there are regional variation, something should be said about the prevalent rule. This omission seems to be a classic example of something seeming so obvious to people who know the subject that they have forgotten to mention it, but it is not self-evident what the numbers are for. Postlebury (talk) 21:03, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, eight-ball is not a rotation game (whereas, for example, nine-ball is); the balls are not potted in any order. Once choice of group is assigned, one player is solids (balls 1-7) and the other is stripes (balls 9-15) and each player may make any of his group in any order. Once the player has potted all of his group, he may then shoot at the 8-ball. I actually detailed the origin of ball numbering higher on this page. Almost all pool games (there are a few hundred) use a standard set of numbered and colored balls. Some use the numbering of balls directly as a facet of the game rules and some do not. As noted, rotation games require the balls to be made in the order of the numbering. Others have the players scoring the number of points the balls are numbered, and many pool games do not use the numbers directly at all, except to the extent that players describe the balls they are going to hit (in call-pocket games) usually by the number assigned rather than the colour. By the way, I'm really not sure what you mean when you say "or this game would be the same as what we call pool in England." In England, "pool" (which is a word of American origin) is used in the say way it is in the States, or at least that appears to be the case. It refers not to a single game but to many games played on pocket billiards tables. In England they play nine ball pool, eight ball pool, and other pool games. See, for example, this UK site which provides rules for many pool games and uses the word as Americans do. Note, though, that here in the States as well, in amateur venues, many people who are only passingly familiar with the sport do sometimes use the word "pool" to mean just the game of eight-ball, since it is the only game they know, and is the predominant game played in pubs. The same may be true in England.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:50, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Gasukidesu, 28 May 2010
editsemiprotected

Gasukidesu (talk) 13:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)If you shoot for the 8 ball without choosing a pocket, it will result in loss of the game.
 * ❌ Hi there, I've declined this request as no request has been made to edit the article. Please make sure that in any future requests that you make you use the format "Please change x to y", otherwise it can be difficult for us to find out exactly what edit you would like to be made to the page. Thanks, Jeffrey Mall (talk • contribs) - 14:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There was another reason not to do this: that is some local variant rule (a "bar rule") that is utterly incorrect in all authoritative rule sets.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:09, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Why "eight-ball"?
how can this be eight ball if there is more than 15 balls on the table —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.13.169.135 (talk) 16:18, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The balls are numbered, physically having affixed the numerals 1 through 15. In this game, the ball numbered 8 has special significance, as you'll note if your read the article, so it's named after that ball.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Split shots
This sentence:

"This includes "split" shots, where the cue ball strikes one of the shooter's and one of the opponent's object ball simultaneously."

should be changed to:

"This does NOT includes "split" shots, where the cue ball strikes one of the shooter's and one of the opponent's object ball simultaneously."

according to World Standardized Rules. See reference 5 (http://www.wpa-pool.com/download/Official_%20WPA_Rules.pdf), point 1.16.4 SPLIT HITS: "If the cue ball strikes a legal object ball and a non-legal object ball at approximately the same instant, and it cannot be determined which ball was hit first, the judgement will go in favor of the shooter."

Tallaght.ie (talk) 11:48, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Dabomb87 (talk) 14:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Spots and stripes
On the page eight-ball

I would like to request the alias Spots and Stripes be added, changing

Eight-ball (often spelled 8-ball or eightball, and sometimes called stripes and solids or, more rarely, bigs and littles or highs and lows),

to

Eight-ball (often spelled 8-ball or eightball, and sometimes called stripes and solids or, more rarely, spots and stripes, bigs and littles or highs and lows),

The term Spots and Stripes is quite common in the UK and a Google search for Pool, Spots and Stripes (ignoring the current promotion by Cadbury's) brings up a wealth of sites related to eight-ball pool.

Thank you.

Escribblings (talk) 01:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting question.svg Question: Do you have a source or example of that game being called spots and stripes? None of the links on the google search show the game being called spots and stripes alone. Thanks, Stickee (talk)  02:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template.
 * Pictogram voting comment.svg Note:I have found several places selling ball sets marked spots and stripes. I have also found the following pages calling the game spots and stripes.

 * The online guide to traditional games - eight-ball pool refers to the game as Spots and Stripes
 * "... The balls are split into two types, spots and stripes. The black eight-ball, although nominally of the spot type is counted as a separate entity. ..."

 * About.com - Pool/Billiards Refers to the balls as Spots and Stripes
 * "... 1 thru 7 for the 'low balls' or 'spots' and 15 thru 9 in descending order for the 'stripes' or 'high balls' ..."

 * | Arseweb - Pool Rules Refers to US pool balls as Spots and Stripes and UK pool balls as Solids. This makes the most sense as a definition as UK pool balls are 100% solid, whereas the US solids are not 100% solid due to the number on them.
 * "... Since American pool game such as 9-ball and straight pool, requiring spots (solids) and stripes are really only ever played on American-style tables in dedicated clubs, these kinds of balls have been almost completely phased out from UK 8-ball tables. When playing on a UK table, you will almost always find that there are 7 solid red balls and 7 yellows, plus the black which retains its white spot and number and is still called the 8-ball. ..."

 * South Tyneside Pool League - Playing Rules (Google cache of a Word document) Uses Spots almost exclusively in place of Solids.
 * "... Place the 15 balls at irregular alternate positions, with either a spot or stripe as the head ball, ..."
 * "... If during the break-off both stripe and spot balls are potted, ..."
 * "... If during game play the cue ball hits a spot and a stripe simultaneously ..."
 * "... When all of a players spots or stripes have been potted ..."
 * "... If either stripe or spot balls leave the table ..."

 * I hope this is enough.

Title of WPA rules
An anon recently changed the heading "World Standardized Rules" to "Standardized Rules of Play", with the edit summary 'The WPA website no longer refers to the rules as the World Standardized Rules. They were previously referred to in that manner, with news entry in 2005 mentioning some adopted change to them, but any current reference to them says "Rules of Play".)'

This needs further investigation. For one thing, the WPA website isn't their authoritative documentation, which are printed copies of rules they provide to referees and tournament organizers. The website is just a public "face" they put on this stuff. For another, we have multiple reliable sources for the title "World Standardized Rules", including every single BCA rulebook published for more than a decade. I'm skeptical that this change based on the HTML  of a webpage is valid. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿ ¤ þ  Contrib.  00:01, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * As far as I am aware, the World Standardized Rules were effective through through 2008, when they were amended and renamed the World Rules, the present regime (the Rules of Play being the subheading). A pdf is available at http://www.wpa-pool.com/pdf/web/WPA_Rules.pdf I am not a fan of the reorganization, although the rules have not changed a great deal in the main. I personally would use the BCAPL for all rule calls if I was allowed—so much more nuanced.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmph. The current PDF actually says "Pool Billiards – The Rules of Play". So the whole "World" part seems to have been lost, unless the printed version still has it. PS: I agree on the BCAPL rules; I play ACS too, but they've adopted the BCAPL rules.  VNEA is pretty close, APA being the real "out there" variant.  I haven't checked up on TAP rules in 10 years, though. — SMcCandlish    Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿ ¤ þ  Contrib.  05:40, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You want clarity? Maybe try emailing Bob Jewett: jewett [at] sfbilliards [dot] com. I believe he was one of the main drafters of the rules changes so I wold think he could shed light on this issue.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:52, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

First Sentence
The first sentence of the article, similar to other articles, is confusing to me. It would be better to somehow state more simply "8-ball is a popular version of pocket billiards (pool)." Maybe cut down on the names of it in the first sentence. and have them mentioned at the end of the paragraph. 108.86.184.50 (talk) 02:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That sentence would introduce an error or at least a point of confusion because it implies pocket billiards is a game, and 8-ball is a variant game but pocket billiards is a classifier for a broad class of games played on tables with pockets where pocketing balls is a goal of play (as opposed to carom billiards--where caroms are the goal of play, often played on tables with no pockets at all). It is the equivalent to "ball game"; "kick ball is a ball game"; "8-ball is a pocket billiards game". You would no more say 8-ball is a version of pocket billiards than you would say kick ball is version of ball games. I donkt really see how stating alternate names is confusing. I am by no means saying this crappy article isn't crap, which it most definitely is, nor that the lead doesn't need rewriting.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:53, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Don't "fix" season names.
A competitive season that runs from autumn of 2008 through spring of 2009 is the is "2008/2009" season. A "2008–2009" season would be a two-year season. Neither style should use "09", as it is liable to be interpreted as a month. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  04:12, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on Eight-ball. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140413180534/http://scottishpool.org/spa to http://scottishpool.org/spa
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20061205013523/http://www.hickoksports.com:80/history/billiard.shtml to http://www.hickoksports.com/history/billiard.shtml
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20070127151057/http://www.bca-pool.com:80/aboutus/history/start.shtml to http://www.bca-pool.com/aboutus/history/start.shtml

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 16:46, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Variations not documented yet
I removed from the lead a partial sentence that consisted of an inline list of alleged variations, most of which are not covered in the article body, and which does not correspond at all to the variations that are in the article. This list consisted of the following:
 * Alabama eight-ball
 * Missouri
 * misery (probably same as Missouri)
 * last-pocket
 * 1-and-15-in-the-sides
 * rotation eight-ball (a.k.a. eight-ball rotation)
 * crazy eight
 * soft eight
 * "and others".

Of these, eight-ball rotation is covered in the article with it's own section, while the 1-and-15-in-the-sides and last-pocket rules are mentioned in passing somewhere as regional things. The others are not mentioned at all. If we want to include these, I would suggest checking Shamos 1999 and other reliable sources for documentation on such variations, and writing them up as sections, or (if they are regional) integrating them into existing regional sections. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  09:39, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

 * I have removed the following as unsourced WP:NFT junk:
 * — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:33, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I have restored it, with a ref call to Shamos, who lists it as "backwards pool" and lists a few alternate names (some of which have their own entries, though the wording is identical, which means that the editors of the book were a bit sloppy, but I digress). oknazevad (talk) 15:08, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair enough! With no citations it looked exactly like the WP:NFT "pool game me and my buddies made up last week" stuff we had to keep deleting all the time a few years ago.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼
 * Fair enough! With no citations it looked exactly like the WP:NFT "pool game me and my buddies made up last week" stuff we had to keep deleting all the time a few years ago.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼

Chinese eight-ball pool
Another variant that is not covered, but apparently attracting professional competition, is Chinese eight-ball pool, played on 9 × 4.5 ft tables with standard WPA ("American") balls and "similar" rules, but using snooker pockets and cushions. [The cushion assertion cannot actually be correct, or the balls would fly off the table. What it probably refers to is a that looks like ___⌉ (as in snooker) instead of ___< (as in pool and carom billiards), in a cross-sectional view (where ___ is the table bed near the cushion). The game apparently also uses heated tables, like three-cushion billiards.

Below, I'll go over sources cited so far (two from material inserted into List of world eight-ball champions, and two from an improper hatnote at Chinese eight-ball (which is about something different, an American folk/pastime variant, played by shooting object balls at the cueball to [BrEng: ] them into pockets, as in Russian billiards).  There is some discussion about "Chinese eight-ball pool" also at Talk:List of world eight-ball champions, but it should be centralized here.

If the rules of this game closely follow WPA/BCA rules (which seems to be the case from sources so far), it should be listed, with more sources, in a section at this article. If it more closely follows the rules of Blackball (pool) (a.k.a. "English eight-ball pool"), it should instead be covered there. Regardless, there should be a "See also" entry for it in the other article, such that both existing articles make reference to it one way or another. Then the hatnote at Chinese eight-ball can be fixed to point to the proper location. Finally, the List of world eight-ball champions can be updated to include this game's top player, but this surely should not happen until there's a sourced section on the game at either Eight-ball or at Blackball (pool), as appropriate. If the game itself cannot be demonstrated to be WP:Notable enough for its own article, nor verifiable enough in its details for a section, then the champions article should not include information about it, since that would just be non-encyclopedic trivia-cruft. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  09:39, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Sources so far, with an eye to WP:Notability (i.e., can we have an entire article about this game, not just a section?):
 * is from a reliable publication (AZBilliards is one of the leading pool-specific online sports journalism sources, and is professionally edited). This article could theoretically have been used to help establish notability (which requires multiple instances of in-depth coverage in independent, reliable, secondary sources). However, it tells us virtually nothing about the game itself, only about a specific tournament and the players at it.
 * is some guy's blog and it is clearly not professionally edited. This is a weak primary source, and while we can maybe use it for some non-controversial details, at least temporarily until better sources are found, it cannot be used to establish notability. Of major concern here is that the article makes it clear that this is a Chinese national game, and that the opening of the tournament is gimmick by the Chinese state, who basically cheated by stacking the playing field with Chinese citizens who got byes, directly into the money round. While this is interesting, it's a strong blow against notability.
 * is from a reliable publication (AZBilliards is one of the leading pool-specific online sports journalism sources, and is professionally edited). However, the article is an op-ed by a player, so it's also a primary source. It's not a useless article, however, providing both details about the game in general, and about the specific tournament in question.
 * Wharton, Rich. 'What Is Chinese 8 Ball', Billiards Boutique blog article Retrieved on 26 January 2015.  Another personal blog, not a reliable source.
 * Brett, Lee; Kidd, Jay and others. 'Chinese 8 Ball Rules', AZ Billiards Forum discussion Retrieved on 26 January 2015.  Forum posts, which is more user-generated content, thus not a reliable source.
 * There are YouTube videos showing people playing it. YouTube is a mishmash of user-generated content and shameless copyright violations, and we generally cannot use it as a source.  Sometimes specific items on it can be used, but these will have to be examined on a case by case basis.  At any rate, whether the game exists at all is not really in question. It's a matter of notability, and it's unlikely that Youtube clips will help establish it.

Thus far, I would say we have sufficient sourcing to write a section called "Chinese eight-ball pool" under Eight-ball, based on the AZBilliards regular article, for anything that can be gleaned from it; cautiously based on the three primary sources (with more weight given to the AZBilliards op-ed, because the publisher is reputable), but only for claims that are unlikely to be controversial; and ignoring random user-generated stuff from forums and YouTube. YT can be looked at for material that is trivial content and is not a copy-vio; something that might be useful would be attendee-shot footage from one of the championships. We can't use people playing the game with their buddies, nor material ripped from commercial broadcasts, nor instructional material. Ping:. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  10:47, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

 * Honestly (to answer this years later), I think the other article should be completely overhauled to be about the modern Chinese 8-ball, and not the archaic (and racistly named) barely notable game. It does a disservice to our readers to not address the most basic of questions related to the most common use of the term. No one cares about a forgettable and forgotten fanciful variant. People do care about the version of the game used in the richest professional pool tournament in the world. oknazevad (talk) 22:17, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Marking this resolved, since we now have coverage of the modern, pro game.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:29, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Scratch vs. foul
Some definition of "scratch" needs to be added to this article. It first appears shortly before the Fouls section, and no distinction is made between scratching and fouling.  -Jord gette  [talk]  20:23, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

 * Agree, as most readers understand what a foul is. Scratch is specific to this topic.--KasiaNL (talk) 08:07, 12 April 2020 (UTC) (banned sock puppet - ) - GizzyCatBella  🍁  20:05, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * A scratch is just a type of foul. If this isn't clear in the text, I can fix that.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * "Scratch" no longer appears in the article. All the fouls are covered, including pocketing the cue ball or knocking it off the table (two meanings of "scratch"), so there is no reason to use the ambiguous slang term "scratch", really.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:28, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Eight-ball


text:
HAL Airport

HAL Airport is an airport that serves Bangalore, the capital of the Indian state of Karnataka. Located about 12 km east of the city centre, it has one runway and operates 24/7. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a state-owned defence company, owns the airfield and runs a testing facility in conjunction with the Indian Armed Forces. The airport also caters to non-scheduled civilian traffic, including general, business and VIP aviation. For over 60 years, it received all domestic and international flights to the city; the Airports Authority of India shut down its civil enclave, officially known as "Bangalore International Airport", upon the opening of the Kempegowda International Airport in Devanahalli in 2008.

The airport commenced operations in January 1941 as the home of India's first aircraft factory, established by the company Hindustan Aircraft. The Allies employed the airfield during the Second World War, and by 1946 commercial flights had begun. Activity at the airport grew gradually over the next several decades until the 1990s, when it started to increase rapidly in parallel to Bangalore's economic expansion. In response, the airport underwent a series of expansions and upgrades. Meanwhile, HAL declared it wanted the airport completely to itself, resulting in the planning of another airfield to replace the civil enclave. Although HAL later modified its stance and some residents of the city protested, an agreement between the new airport's operator and the state and national governments obligated the enclave to close. Consequently, airlines moved to the Devanahalli airport on the night of 23–24 May 2008.

History
During World War II, Indian magnate Walchand Hirachand sought to build and repair planes in India, which at the time did not have any aircraft industry of its own. He found a partner in American businessman William Pawley, and the two received authorization from the British War Cabinet to set up a factory. Meanwhile, the princely state of Mysore offered 200 acres in Bangalore for the construction of an airfield. Hirachand, his colleagues, and the Mysore government jointly formed a company called Hindustan Aircraft Limited (the original name of present-day Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, or HAL) and in December 1940 laid the cornerstone of the facility, which began operations just one month later. The colonial government joined the venture in 1941. As fears of Japanese ambitions rose following the attack on Pearl Harbor, the British Raj took over HAL in April 1942, thereby requisitioning the airfield as well. It then allowed the US Tenth Air Force to repair its aircraft in Bangalore, and the following year the Americans began running the factory. With the US Air Force in charge, the facility focused on fixing and overhauling aircraft and engines, as well as producing drop tanks. Workers tended to a wide range of planes, including Catalinas and C-47 Dakotas. Upon the war's conclusion, the Indian government reassumed control of the airport.

On the civilian front, commercial flights had started by 1946, when Deccan Airways introduced service to Hyderabad. Six years later, three other airlines were also flying to the airport, linking it to a handful of destinations in South India. The national government then combined all domestic carriers into a single company called Indian Airlines, which was providing nonstop service from Bangalore to six cities by 1970. Additionally, jet aircraft had reached the airport by this time, with Caravelles performing routes to Hyderabad and Bombay. During the 1980–1981 fiscal year, the HAL airport served approximately 550,000 passengers. Before the end of the decade, Bangalore had acquired one more airline, Vayudoot, which operated flights within Karnataka as well as to neighbouring Tamil Nadu. Meanwhile, Indian Airlines' network from the city had expanded to 13 destinations, from Delhi in the north to Trivandrum in the south.

During the 1990s, Bangalore's rising global stature and bustling economy led passenger numbers at the HAL airport to rise at a quick rate. While 1,000 travellers were passing through the terminal daily in 1991, more than six times that number were doing so by 1997. Additionally, Air India delivered Bangalore its first international destination, Singapore, in January 1995. To keep pace with the growing civilian air traffic, the Airports Authority of India (AAI) constructed an instrument landing system for the runway and another terminal. The arrivals section of the two-storey building could serve 700 domestic and 300 international passengers at a time, while the departures area had a capacity for 300 international travellers. At the inauguration ceremony in January 1999, then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee observed that the city's accelerated pace of growth meant that the expansion would only help in the short-term, so government leaders needed to work toward building a new airport.

Plans for another airport had originated earlier in the decade, when HAL conveyed that it no longer wished to share its airfield with commercial airlines. The company owned the land of the airport and managed all facilities besides the AAI's civil enclave. A group of private companies evinced interest in the new-airport project and signed a memorandum of understanding with the Karnataka government; the agreement specified that airline flights would switch to the new facility upon its inauguration. However, HAL later dropped its demand. The enterprise and the AAI divided the earnings from the civil enclave among themselves, and HAL feared the impact the closure would have on its revenue. While the union government supported HAL, the consortium insisted that the civil enclave would need to cease operations in order to ensure the new airport's profitability. State officials added that the lake, apartment complexes, and other buildings surrounding the HAL airport made it impossible to significantly expand the site to accommodate future growth in air traffic. Although the businesses ultimately decided to abandon the endeavour, it gradually moved forward.

The year 2000 saw the Bangalore airport land its first foreign carrier, Royal Nepal Airlines, which initiated a route to Kathmandu. One year later, Lufthansa launched flights to Frankfurt using Airbus A340s, signalling the first time the South Indian metropolis had a direct link to Europe.

Bangalore's IT and other industries continued to flourish, driving passenger counts further up as the decade progressed. Air Deccan established its first base at the HAL airport upon starting operations in 2003. Two years later, Bangalore ranked third on the list of the busiest airports in India with respect to domestic operations, and more international travellers were arriving as well. Carriers like British Airways and Air France, which began service to the city in the same week, contributed to this growth. In 2006, HAL complained that the booming civilian operations were hindering the company's activities, which ranged from flying sorties to evaluating aircraft prototypes. In fact, over the past fiscal year the airport had operated at about 1.6 times its capacity of 3.5 million passengers per year.

Meanwhile, a private company called Bangalore International Airport Limited (BIAL) signed a concession agreement with the state and national governments to erect a new, much larger airport. In 2005, BIAL started construction at a site 30 km from the downtown area of the city in the suburb of Devanahalli. Similar to the memorandum that the original consortium had signed in the 1990s, the contract barred commercial flights from operating at the HAL airport for 25 years after the new airfield opened.

The large amount of traffic placed great strain on the HAL airport, creating congested terminals and overflowing parking lots. Additionally, since the tarmac had only eight parking stands for passenger aircraft, the high number of flights was producing delays. As the new airport would not be ready for another few years, the AAI attempted to improve the present situation in different ways. Worried about the dangers of a crowded airspace, officials requested domestic airlines to consider discontinuing the addition of flights and operating fewer services during the busiest hours. The airports authority also collaborated with HAL to construct extra parking bays, and by late 2006 it had finished enlarging the two terminals, thereby raising the yearly capacity by 800,000 people. The airport remained significantly busy in the meantime. 10 domestic airlines and 11 foreign carriers were serving it in 2007, and greater than 10 million passengers passed through the terminals in the 2007–2008 fiscal year. In April 2008, Air Mauritius added a route to Bangalore using Airbus A330 aircraft. The flight from Bangalore to Port Louis operated via Chennai, while the inbound one was direct.

Transfer of civilian operations
As work on the new airport neared its end, a controversy grew in the city regarding the civil enclave's impending closure. Local business leaders and others claimed, for example, that the authorities were going to eliminate a potential competitor to BIAL. Even the managing director of HAL's Bangalore branch supported retaining some domestic flights, as he believed the immense demand for air travel made it sensible for the city to have two airports. At the same time, the defence company noted that keeping the passenger terminals open was not one of its primary concerns. Additionally, 20,000 AAI workers across India walked off their jobs in March 2008 over the shutting of the civil enclaves in Bangalore and Hyderabad; they did not end their strike until the union government affirmed that the airports would remain operational for other purposes. The Karnataka government suggested to BIAL that the HAL airport could continue receiving short-haul flights, but the company would not change its stance.

On 23 May 2008, the high court of the state rejected a petition by a local organisation to delay the new airport's opening, ensuring that the transfer of passenger and revenue cargo flights between the airfields would take place at midnight. Nevertheless, one plane did not take-off from the HAL airport until 1:30 am on 24 May, as rainy weather forced the incoming flight to land late. In light of the protests, the court offered the central government and BIAL 12 weeks to determine the future of the civil enclave. BIAL still sought to adhere to the 2004 agreement, and New Delhi concurred after assessing the Devanahalli airport's capabilities.

Since the last commercial flights took off, the level of activity at the HAL airport has decreased greatly. In 2015, between 60 and 70 aircraft movements occurred per day, a significant drop from 310 in 2007. Meanwhile, HAL has spoken various times with BIAL and the government in an effort to reopen the civil enclave and increase the airport's revenue. Although the defence ministry sided with HAL, BIAL remained opposed to amending the concession agreement for several years. In 2020, however, the company stated that once Kempegowda Airport was operating at maximum capacity, it would contemplate allowing passenger operations to resume at the HAL airport.

Facilities and operations
HAL Airport has one asphalt runway, which is oriented to 90/270 degrees and measures 3,306 by 61 metres. It is equipped with a category I instrument landing system and can cater to aircraft as large as the Boeing 747. The airfield, which remains operational 24/7, also contains 30 parking spots and two helipads.

The airport accommodates a wide array of non-scheduled civilian operations, including VIP aircraft movements, charter flights, and air ambulances. However, it does not generally function as a diversion alternative to Kempegowda International Airport in case of emergencies; the AAI no longer maintains the terminal buildings to handle passengers, and no airline flight may touch down at the airfield per the concession agreement. As of 2017, the civil aviation ministry seeks to permit airlines to divert to the HAL airport, as it does not believe the contract with BIAL applies to such contingencies. In regards to facilities available for civilian use, the airport offers a VIP lounge, air-freight warehouse, and maintenance hangar. The closed civil enclave possessed two terminals, one for domestic flights and the other for international services.

With respect to defence activities, HAL and the Indian military perform test flights from the airfield.

Incidents and accidents

 * On 15 September 1951, an Air India Douglas C-47 Dakota departed with the autopilot switched on, causing the plane to crash. Of the 27 people on board, one crew member died in the accident.
 * On 21 October 1963, a Fairchild C-119 Flying Boxcar belonging to the Indian Air Force collided with trees as it was preparing to land, killing eight of the 21 people aboard.
 * 14 February 1990: Indian Airlines Flight 605, an Airbus A320, crashed on final approach with 92 fatalities.
 * 28 December 1996: A Blue Dart Aviation Boeing 737 made a heavy, off-centre landing, causing damage to the aircraft and runway.
 * 12 February 2004: A helicopter being used by the HAL Rotary Wing Academy crashed, injuring both occupants.
 * 26 October 2005: An Indian Air Force MiG-21 crashed, killing the pilot.
 * 11 March 2006: A Deccan ATR 72 with 40 passengers and 4 crew members made a heavy landing. There were no major injuries, but the aircraft was written off.
 * 4 May 2006: A Transmile Air Services 727-2F2F suffered damage to the left-wing fuel tank.
 * 21 August 2006: A Kiran Mark II trainer aircraft landed on its fuselage after the wheels failed to deploy.
 * 6 June 2007: A Sri Lankan Cargo Antonov An-12 lost engine power on the runway.
 * 6 March 2009: A NAL Saras aircraft prototype that had taken off from HAL Airport crashed in a field near Bidadi, killing the three-man crew of test pilots.
 * 1 February 2019: An Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 modified by HAL on an acceptance flight crashed 500 metres outside the airport perimeter wall after an unsuccessful touch-and-go on runway 09; both pilots ejected but landed on burning wreckage and died.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: HAL Airport


text:
Treetops Hotel

Treetops Hotel was a hotel in Aberdare National Park in Kenya 10 mi from the township of Nyeri, 1966 m above sea level on the Aberdare Range and in sight of Mount Kenya. First opened in November 1932 by Eric Sherbrooke Walker, it was built into the tops of the trees of Aberdare National Park as a treehouse, offering the guests a close view of the local wildlife. The idea was to provide a machan (hunting platform on a tree during shikar in India) experience in relative safety and comfort. From the original modest two-room tree house built into the top of a tree, it grew into a 35-room hotel. The original structure was replaced by a larger structure, also in the tree, but additionally supported on legs; this was burnt down by the Kenya Land and Freedom Army (KLFA) during the 1954 Mau Mau Uprising. The hotel was rebuilt near the same waterhole and became fashionable for wealthy clientele. It included an observation lounges and ground-level photographic hides from which guests could observe the local wildlife at the nearby waterholes. The hotel closed in October 2021.

Treetops is where Elizabeth II (then Princess Elizabeth) was staying in 1952 when she acceded to the thrones of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms, upon the death of her father, King George VI.

Beginnings
The original idea of Major Eric Sherbrooke Walker, who owned land in the Aberdare Range, was to build a treehouse for his wife Lady Bettie. The idea grew, and in 1932 the couple oversaw the construction of a two-room treehouse in a huge 300-year-old fig tree well away from Nyeri itself; this was intended as an adjunct facility to the Outspan Hotel in Nyeri, which they had also built and owned. Initial construction was hampered by the presence of wild animals, as the treehouse was purposely built beside animal trails leading to a nearby waterhole. Labourers and supervisors were often chased away by wild animals, which led to increased labour costs.

This first structure was open only on Wednesday nights as a night-viewing platform for guests staying at the Outspan Hotel; although beds were provided, these were intended for resting or dozing, rather than sleeping. Rising demand prompted the Walkers to expand to accommodate more visitors. The visit of Princess Elizabeth and her husband Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh in 1952 included a visit to Treetops as personal guests of the Walkers. The Treetops was reinforced, and its capacity increased to four rooms, including one for a resident hunter.

Royal visit
The visit of Princess Elizabeth and her husband Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh to Kenya in 1952 included a visit to Treetops as personal guests of the Walkers. The visit cemented the fame of the Treetops. The princess' stay, which coincided with the death of her father King George VI on the night of 5–6 February 1952, and consequently her succession to the throne, involved the Treetops in the worldwide publicity surrounding these events. The same night, before the event was known, Sir Horace Hearne, then Chief Justice of Kenya, had escorted the princess and her husband, Prince Philip, to a state dinner at Treetops. After word of George VI's death reached the new Queen the following day – when she had already left Treetops and was by this time at Sagana Lodge – she returned immediately to Britain. She was the first British monarch since King George I to be outside the country at the moment of succession.

The renowned hunter Jim Corbett, who was invited by the princess to accompany them during their stay there, wrote in the visitors' book: "For the first time in the history of the world, a young girl climbed into a tree one day a Princess and after having what she described as her most thrilling experience she climbed down from the tree next day a Queen – God bless her." Corbett, the resident "hunter" at Treetops, also wrote about the visit in his final book Tree Tops, which was published by the Oxford University Press in October 1955, six months after Corbett's death (19 April 1955). Archival footage of the royal visit has also survived. Queen Elizabeth II made a return visit in 1983.

Political unrest
The Mau Mau Uprising, which began as a protest in 1951 and 1952 of British control in the Kikuyu homeland quickly became a violent uprising. It was suppressed by the British over the period 1953–1954. In 1953, the Aberdare forest provided refuge to many hundreds of Mau Mau rebels, led by Dedan Kimathi. In June 1953, the entire region was declared off-limits for Africans, and orders to shoot Africans on sight were set in place. A major military operation in late 1953 ("Operation Blitz") left 125 guerillas dead. This was followed in January 1954 by "Operation Hammer", led by the King's African Rifles, which however failed to encounter many guerillas as most had already left the area. As a protest against the shoot-on-sight orders, and repeated military action, Mau Mau rebels burnt down the Treetops Hotel (which acted as a lookout for the King's African Rifles) on 27 May 1954 in a contentious military action or act of terror. The incident took place as the uprising was slowly being brought to an end by British military action.

Second structure and enlargement
Treetops was rebuilt in a nearby chestnut tree overlooking the same waterhole and salt lick near the elephant migration pathway to Mount Kenya. The facility became so popular that rising demand required a new, larger structure, and this was supported further by poles as well as the tree itself.

Further demand required the Walkers to accommodate more visitors. Treetops had another level added, and was reinforced - see picture below right. Its capacity was increased to four rooms, including one for a resident hunter.

Later years
Further increased demand flowing from the publicity surrounding the Queen's accession there, the name Treetops was transferred, with the addition of the word "Hotel" to a new 35-room structure on additional stilt supports. It had four decks and a rooftop viewing platform. Due to the quick change in profile of the rustic tree lodge, National Geographic ran an article A New Look at Kenya's "Treetops" in October 1956.

Treetops' popularity was additionally due to their "no see, no pay" policy during their early years – a common business policy on safaris, where guests were not charged for services if they failed to see any big game. Visitors could observe the wildlife from the top deck, the viewing windows in the communal space, or from ground level hides. They could also take motor tours from the Treetops. While an overnight destination, only overnight luggage was allowed, with visitors being driven in from the Outspan Hotel for the night. Other facilities included a thousand-watt artificial moon used to illuminate animals at the waterhole during darkness. Another unusual restriction at the Treetops was a low-decibel noise-level restriction due to the hearing sensitivity of many animals; this included a ban on all hard-soled footwear.

Management
In 1966, when Eric Walker was 79, he sold the Outspan Hotel, and with it, Treetops, to the Block Hotel group. Eric Walker died in 1976, aged 89. Aberdare Safari Hotels acquired the two properties in 1978. Following the success of Treetops, another treetop lodge – the Shimba, was opened by the Aberdare Safari Hotels group in the Shimba Hills National Reserve.

Aberdare Safari Hotels embarked on an initiative dubbed "Return the Bush" in conjunction with the Kenya Wildlife Service. The initiative involved the rehabilitation of 125 ha of the Aberdare National Park that has been degraded by the toll the fenced-in elephant population has exerted on the ecosystem. Electric fencing for the paddock covering an area of 16.5 ha around the lodge was installed. The paddocking allowed reforestation as well as the natural regeneration of the local flora within the paddock.

The hotel closed in October 2021; it had been unable to host any guests for over a year due to a drop in tourism caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.

Notable visitors
Famous personalities who have visited the Treetops include Charlie Chaplin, Joan Crawford and Lord Mountbatten, and a return visit by Elizabeth II in 1983.

Lord Baden-Powell, founder of the Boy Scouts movement, was a resident of Nyeri and a frequent visitor to Treetops. In 1938, he commissioned a cottage on the grounds of The Outspan Hotel, which he named Paxtu. The final resting place of Lord and Lady Baden-Powell is located nearby. Jim Corbett, hunter, conservationist, and author, who accompanied Elizabeth II during her stay at Treetops on 6 February 1952, lived in the same house as Baden-Powell, and is buried nearby, next to Lord Baden-Powell and his wife Olave, Lady Baden-Powell.

Author Willard Price visited while researching his novel Safari Adventure.

Paul McCartney and Beatles roadie Mal Evans stayed at the hotel while on safari in 1966. Returning from the safari trip, McCartney stated that he came up with the concept of "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" on the flight from Nairobi to London.

title: Treetops Hotel


text: User talk:66.188.8.188

title: User talk:66.188.8.188


text:
Nationally recognized statistical rating organization

A nationally recognized statistical rating organization (NRSRO) is a credit rating agency (CRA) approved by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to provide information that financial firms must rely on for certain regulatory purposes.

History
The use of the term NRSRO began in 1975 when the SEC promulgated rules regarding bank and broker-dealer net capital requirements.

Prior to 1975, the SEC did not adopt specific standards for determining which credit rating agencies were "nationally recognized", and instead addressed the question on a case-by-case basis. NRSRO recognition was granted by the SEC through a "No Action Letter" sent by the SEC staff. Under this approach, if a CRA (or investment bank or broker-dealer) were interested in using the ratings from a particular CRA for regulatory purposes, the SEC staff would research the market to determine whether ratings from that particular CRA were widely used and considered "reliable and credible." If the SEC staff determined that this was the case, it would send a letter to the CRA indicating that if a regulated entity were to rely on the CRA's ratings, the SEC staff would not recommend enforcement action against that entity. These "No Action Letters" were made public and could be relied upon by other regulated entities, not just the entity making the original request. The SEC later sought to further define the criteria it uses when making this assessment, and in March 2005 published a proposed regulation to this effect. According to the SEC:

"The single most important factor in the Commission staff's assessment of NRSRO status is whether the rating agency is "nationally recognized" in the United States as an issuer of credible and reliable ratings by the predominant users of securities ratings. The staff also reviews the operational capability and reliability of each rating organization. Included within this assessment are: (1) the organizational structure of the rating organization; (2) the rating organization's financial resources (to determine, among other things, whether it is able to operate independently of economic pressures or control from the companies it rates); (3) the size and quality of the rating organization's staff (to determine if the entity is capable of thoroughly and competently evaluating an issuer's credit); (4) the rating organization's independence from the companies it rates; (5) the rating organization's rating procedures (to determine whether it has systematic procedures designed to produce credible and accurate ratings); and (6) whether the rating organization has internal procedures to prevent the misuse of nonpublic information and whether those procedures are followed. The staff also recommends that the agency become registered as an investment adviser."

In 2006, following criticism that the SEC's "No Action letter" approach was simultaneously too opaque and provided the SEC with too little regulatory oversight of NRSROs, the U.S. Congress passed the Credit Rating Agency Reform Act of 2006,. This law required the SEC to establish clear guidelines for determining which credit rating agencies qualify as NRSROs. It also gives the SEC the power to regulate NRSRO internal processes regarding record-keeping and how they guard against conflicts of interest, and makes the NRSRO determination subject to a Commission vote (rather than an SEC staff determination). Notably, however, the law specifically prohibits the SEC from regulating an NRSRO's rating methodologies. In June 2007, the SEC promulgated new regulations that implemented the provisions of the Credit Rating Agency Reform Act. In February 2009, the SEC promulgated amended regulations designed to address concerns about the integrity of the process by which NRSROs rate structured finance products, particularly mortgage-related securities.

Since 2010, there have also been changes in laws and regulations due to the Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, including the January 2011 Final Rule: Disclosure for Asset-Backed Securities Required by Section 943 of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act.

Controversies
Many private users (pension funds, banks) of ratings data now demand that ratings be from an NRSRO. Consequently, there is some debate that, by "recognizing" certain CRAs, the SEC bestows a competitive advantage on them. This view is supported by the vigor by which many non-NRSRO CRAs seek NRSRO recognition. On the other hand, many private users of ratings data prefer Standard & Poor's and Moody's. (S&P and Moody's are the oldest, most widely respected, and by far the largest of the CRAs.) Accordingly, it is conceivable that the NRSRO designation has actually increased competition in the industry by providing an unintended government "seal of approval" on certain smaller CRAs (such as DBRS, Kroll Bond Rating Agency, HR Ratings de México, S.A. de C.V., and Egan-Jones). If true, this of course raises the question of whether this is something the government should do, and whether the NRSRO recognition process is the best mechanism to achieve this goal.

The larger NRSROs have also been criticized for their reliance on an "issuer-pays" business model, whereby the bulk of their revenue comes from the issuers of the bonds being rated, so that the company receiving the credit rating pays the CRA directly. While this is recognized by regulators as a potential conflict of interest (since the bond issuer paying for the rating has an incentive to seek out the CRA most likely to give it a high rating, possibly creating a "race-to-the-bottom" in terms of rating quality), the larger NRSROs claim that the issuer-pays model is the only feasible model for them, because, in an age of email and faxes, the ratings of the larger CRAs are so widely and so quickly shared that a subscription-based model would not be profitable. Conversely, the predominance of the issuer-pays model has led to concerns that a CRA will be tempted to artificially inflate its rating to retain a valued customer. This threat has been taken seriously by U.S. regulators who have adopted amendments to existing regulations designed to separate the payment negotiation and the credit assessment branches within a firm.

The larger CRAs often receive non-public information from issuers and, under the SEC's Regulation FD, a CRA may only use such information if its ratings are made available to the public for free.

Some smaller CRAs, including Egan-Jones (the only NRSRO to do so), use a subscription-based business model whereby ratings are not made public but are available only to subscribers, who pay a monthly fee for access to credit rating information. These smaller CRAs argue that such a business model makes them less reliant on the good will of the issuers they rate, thereby eliminating one major potential conflict of interest.

Subprime mortgages, collateralized debt obligations, and the financial crisis
The ratings agencies were heavily involved in the markets that enabled the subprime credit bubble of 2000-2008 and the subsequent financial crisis. In 1984 the federal government of the United States passed the Secondary Mortgage Market Enhancement Act (SMMEA) to improve the marketability of private-label (non-agency) mortgage-backed securities, which declared NRSRO AA-rated mortgage-backed securities to be legal investments equivalent to Treasury securities and other federal government bonds for federally-charted banks (such as federal savings banks, federal savings associations, etc.), state-chartered financial institutions (such as depository banks and insurance companies) unless overridden by state law by October 1991 (of which 21 states did so), and Department of Labor-regulated pension funds.

By 2000, the NRSROs were making substantial profits from rating collateralized debt obligations (CDOs), residential mortgage-backed securities, and other varieties of structured finance connected to the subprime lending industry. The ratings on these products were essential to the way the banks marketed the products. Buyers, like pension funds, university endowments, and cities (Narvik, Norway lost the equivalent of US$ million ), relied on these ratings in their decisions to purchase CDOs and other structured finance products. The activities of the ratings agencies have been detailed in many books, including The Big Short by Michael Lewis, Confidence Game by Christine S. Richard, All The Devils are Here by Bethany McClean and Joe Nocera. Janet Tavakoli, author of Structured Finance and Collateralized Debt Obligations, has suggested that these agencies lose their NRSRO status in relation to certain financial products. In 2011, the US Senate released the Levin-Coburn report on "Wall Street and the Financial Crisis"; it did a case study of the behavior of some of the CRAs during the crisis.

List of NRSROs
ten organizations were designated as NRSROs, including the Big Three.

 * AM Best
 * DBRS (under Morningstar, Inc.)
 * Demotech
 * Egan-Jones Ratings Company
 * Fitch Ratings
 * HR Ratings de México, S.A. de C.V.
 * Japan Credit Rating Agency
 * Kroll Bond Rating Agency
 * Moody's Investors Service
 * S&P Global Ratings


text:
Thomas Boston Gordon

Thomas Boston Gordon (February 4, 1816 – January 25, 1891) was an American educator, attorney, and county judge in Kentucky. He was a founding member of Beta Theta Pi national fraternity.

Biography
Gordon was born in Elbert County, Georgia. He attended Miami University, receiving an A.B. in 1840 and an A.M. in 1841 or 1845. While there, he and seven other male students formed Beta Theta Pi national fraternity at Miami University on August 8, 1839. He was the fraternity's second president. In April 1840, he was part of the committee that formed the fraternity's Beta chapter at the University of Cincinnati. He was also a member of the Erodelphian Literary Society.

Career
From 1841 to 1843, Gordon was the principal of the Collingsworth Institute near Talbotton, Georgia. In November 1845, he represented Monroe County, Georgia in the Democratic Convention of the Third Congressional District. He studied law in Forsythe, Georgia and was admnitted to the State Bar of Georgia in February 1842 and began practicing law. Gordon was admitted to the Bar of the Supreme Court of Georgia in 1847. Gordon began practicing law in Owingsville, Kentucky by 1850. He was elected a judge in Bath County, Kentucky from 1854 to 1858. During the Civil War, he enrolled in the Confederate States Army in 1861 at the age of 45, along with his sons John and Angus who were fifteen and sixteen years old, respectively. Gordon initially served with Company C, 5th Kentucky Infantry. He became a captain in the First Kentucky Brigade, also known as the Orphan Brigade when Company C was transferred in the spring of 1863. However, he was transferred to a command in the cavalry. By January 1, 1865, Gordon has signed a bond, committing to peace and honoring the laws of the United States.

After the war, Gordon returned to Owingsville and the education profession. He took a position with a school in Pinckard Station in Woodford County and became the principal of Smithfield Collge in Smithfield in 1876. He retired from teaching in 1879.

Personal life
Gordon married Frances Greer of Forsythe, Georgia on June 11, 1845. They moved to a farm in Bath County, Kentucky in 1848. They had six children, including Thomas R. Gordon who became a judge, Angus Neal Gordon who was a college professor, and Fannie I. Gordon who was a high school teacher.

Gordon was a Mason, serving as the master of the Maury Lodge in 1852. After he retired, Gordan and his wife moved to Fayette County; he spent his latter days in Nicholasville, Kentucky, near Lexington. In 1891, Gordon died from paralysis in the Lexington home of his son, Angus. He is buried in the Lexington Cemetery.

title: Thomas Boston Gordon


text:
Hartwig (lunar crater)

Hartwig is a lunar impact crater that is located near the western limb of the Moon. It is attached to the eastern rim of the prominent crater Schlüter, to the northeast of the Montes Cordillera mountain range that surrounds the Mare Orientale. To the east-northeast of Hartwig is the larger crater Riccioli.

This crater lies within the outer blanket of ejecta that surrounds the Mare Orientale impact basin, and its form has been modified by this material. Much of the eastern rim of the crater is overlaid by this ejecta, and only a portion of the western rim near Schluter remains well-formed. The interior floor has likewise been modified. There is a small crater on the floor near the northeastern rim.

Satellite craters
By convention these features are identified on lunar maps by placing the letter on the side of the crater midpoint that is closest to Hartwig.

title: Hartwig (lunar crater)


text:
Talk:Otis Johnson

Untitled
Anonymous login repeatedly changes the wiki to reflect political opinions.

Questionable copyright status
The text as it is may be a copyvio, but it's not entirely clear. The source site's copyright notice (retrieved February 8 2005) states:
 * "The digital reproductions of historical items and original artwork included in the City of Savannah web site have been made available for use in research, teaching (including distribution to classes), and private study. For these purposes you may reproduce (print, make photocopies, or download) materials from this web site without prior permission, on the condition that you provide proper attribution of the source in all copies. The materials and pages included in the City of Savannah web site may be linked to freely from other Web pages and Internet resources."

It doesn't seem like this use fits, but I'm not the lawyer. slambo 19:13, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

opinion: He is a great mayor of Savannah,Ga.

ahem
he's no longer mayor, his term ended in decamber and a new mayor has been sworn in...

title: Talk:Otis Johnson