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Twin Cities Marathon

The Twin Cities Marathon is a marathon in the Minneapolis–Saint Paul area which normally takes place the first weekend in October. The race is often called "The Most Beautiful Urban Marathon in America" due to a course that winds through downtown districts, then along parkways that hug lakes and waterways all throughout dense urban forests in the neighborhoods of both cities.

The first Twin Cities marathon took place on October 3, 1982 after both Minneapolis and St. Paul combined their separate marathon events. Its earliest predecessor, the Land of Lakes Marathon, began in 1963.

It is one of the top 10 largest marathons in the US. In 2006 the race agreed to its first corporate sponsorship, with Medtronic, Inc. The official name of the marathon changed in 2006 to Medtronic Twin Cities Marathon (MTCM).

In addition to the marathon, the MTCM has expanded to a full weekend of events providing opportunities for runners and wheelers of all ages and abilities. Sunday events for adults include the Medtronic TC 10 Mile, or "Shortcut to the Capitol". Medtronic TC Family Events take place on Saturday for children and adults of all ages. Saturday's races include the TC 10K, TC 5K, Diana Pierce Family Mile, Toddler Trot, Diaper Dash, and Mascot Invitational. In addition, Medtronic and the marathon's organizers sponsor a one-mile road race, for anyone from novices to professionals.

In 2006 the Twin Cities Marathon was ranked as the third most competitive marathon for American runners by Running Times magazine.

In the years since inauguration, the marathon has grown to a full weekend of events including the addition of the Medtronic TC 10 Mile race as a Sunday companion event to the marathon. On the Saturday before the marathon and 10 mi, runners can compete in 5K and 10K runs and a variety of family events including the popular Diaper Dash and Toddler Trot events.

The event is put on by thousands of volunteers, many of whom return each year. In 2004, nearly 2,500 volunteers, some who said they were motivated by an expression of their values and a love for the sport, aided the management of the race weekend and the runners.

History
The Minnesota Distance Running Association created the event's earliest ancestor, originally called the Land of Lakes Marathon in 1963. Spectators outnumbered runners that inaugural year as just five participants, all male, began the 26.2 mile trek along Minneapolis' streets and parkways.

In 1976, the race was renamed the City of Lakes Marathon and moved to a four-lap course around Bde Maka Ska and Lake Harriet. By 1981, with the running boom echoing across the country, the race took just a month to fill its limit of 1,700 runners. In the same year, Minneapolis' counterpart established its own marathon, the St. Paul Marathon, which followed a course around Minnesota's capital city. The race launched successfully, drawing approximately 2,000 runners in its first and only running.

In 1982, organizers from the St. Paul and City of Lakes marathons combined efforts to establish the Twin Cities Marathon. Race officials realized that a marathon which connected Minneapolis to St. Paul, combining the spectacular autumn beauty of both cities, would be greater attraction than two competing marathons on either side of the Mississippi River. The inaugural Twin Cities Marathon attracted 4,563 entrants, which established an entry record for a first-time race in the United States.

A slight kerfuffle occurred in 2004 when Irina Permitina finished first for the women, but unofficial results showed her finishing with a time of 2:26:53. Permitina, who was back in Minnesota after having been trampled at the start of Grandma's Marathon in June, was sure that the time was incorrect. Officials corroborated the four official timing devices to find that her time was indeed incorrect—she had actually run a 2:26:50.7—which was three-tenths of a second faster than the previous record set by fellow Russian Zinaida Semenova in 2001. However, marathon race officials round the tenth of a second up to the nearest second, so the time was ruled a tie with the previous record. Permitina submitted a protest, but was moot—the women's course record for the Twin Cities marathon is held by two female runners.

2008 marked the first year that one of the events hosted a USATF championship. Both the 10 mile race as well as the marathon have been US championships. The years that the races serve as championships, prize money is increased and the field is much deeper.

2017 marked the first time that the 10 mile race (TC10) had more entrants (12,484) than the marathon (9,851).

The 2020 edition of the race was cancelled due to the coronavirus pandemic, with all registrants receiving a partial credit for 2021 or 2022.

The 2023 edition of the race was cancelled due to high heat and humidity.

Course
The course begins near U.S. Bank Stadium in downtown Minneapolis, and winds around several of the city's well-known lakes (including Lake of the Isles, Bde Maka Ska, Lake Harriet, and Lake Nokomis) before turning north along the banks of the Mississippi River. The course follows the river for several miles before crossing into Saint Paul, and then proceeds east up Summit Avenue to finish at the Minnesota State Capitol. Miles 21–23 of the course proceed on a steady uphill from the river, and are considered among the more challenging finishes among American marathons, although the downhill last half-mile allows for relatively strong finishes.

Marathon

 * * = Doping violation: Tested positive for banned substance EPO (Erythropoietin)

TC 10 Mile
Key: Men's championship only. Women's championship only

title: Twin Cities Marathon


text:
User talk:Stefan.karpinski

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

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 * Try the Tutorial, and feel free to experiment in the test area.
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Good luck!

Meelar (talk) 22:52, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of List of most interesting Wikipedia pages

A tag has been placed on List of most interesting Wikipedia pages requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion, or "db", tag; if no such tag exists, then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hang-on tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you.  Chzz  ► 21:50, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry, but an article on "interesting Wikipedia pages" is just not appropriate, for several reasons; it isn't a notable topic, it can't be neutral (because it is a matter of opinion), and it is too self-referential.

 * We do, however, have pages like that in "Wikipedia:" namespace. We've already got List of unusual articles.  Chzz  ► 21:52, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Julia promotion strategy
Hi, you don't know me, but I'm a huge Julia fan, something like twice your age, and although I really appreciate your work on its article here, it's doing nothing for your visibility compared to your 0.1 release.

Right now, if you want press and exposure, the language to beat with completely undeserved mystique among the masses is R, partly because "big data" (in the old days we called it "statistics") is hot on the venture markets as companies try to figure out how they can optimize and data mine. So you've got to use that. And it's so easy: R is a sitting duck because it has so many decades of legacy, it's one of the most ugly, incomprehensible languages around, at Perl-levels of unreadability but it's hard to write, too. And dog-slow compared to Julia.

So, here's what you do: Make a series of ten blog posts, about one per week, on a theme e.g. "R versus Julia: Big data speed and comprehensibility shoot out" ("bake off" is a trademark, so go for the gun metaphor, the press eats it up, sadly.) Each post should take less than an hour: take a common statistical operation, show what it looks like in R and Julia code, run it on some god forsakenly large data set, and show the benchmarks in a big simple graph at the end of the post with some bullet holes photoshopped in on the much larger R graph bar. Then submit each post to Y-Combinator Hacker News, Slashdot, Ars Technica, and anywhere else that publishes that sort of thing.

If that doesn't get your article page views up 10x or more, your money back. Seriously, please do this. I don't want to live in a 0-based index future, and you're the last best hope to save us from borghood. 168.103.94.19 (talk) 20:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

November 2013
Hello, Stefan.karpinski. We welcome your contributions to Wikipedia, but if you are affiliated with some of the people, places or things you have written about in the article Julia (programming language), you may have a conflict of interest or close connection to the subject.

All editors are required to comply with Wikipedia's neutral point of view content policy. People who are very close to a subject often have a distorted view of it, which may cause them to inadvertently edit in ways that make the article either too flattering or too disparaging. People with a close connection to a subject are not absolutely prohibited from editing about that subject, but they need to be especially careful about ensuring their edits are verified by reliable sources and writing with as little bias as possible.

If you are very close to a subject, here are some ways you can reduce the risk of problems:

 * Avoid or exercise great caution when editing or creating articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with.
 * Be cautious about deletion discussions. Everyone is welcome to provide information about independent sources in deletion discussions, but avoid advocating for deletion of articles about your competitors.
 * Avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Spam).
 * Exercise great caution so that you do not accidentally breach Wikipedia's content policies.

Please familiarize yourself with relevant content policies and guidelines, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, verifiability of information, and autobiographies.

For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have a conflict of interest, please see our frequently asked questions for organizations. Thank you. Yworo (talk) 22:47, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Yworo. As you note, I'm clearly one of the Julia language creators – hiding my identity when making edits to the language page would definitely be wrong and against policy. In general, I have tried to only make edits to the Julia page to correct factual errors. I think the upshot of the most recent back-and-forth edits (with a user in the 94.106 IP block) is that the relationship between Julia's language features and those of other Lisp-family systems like Common Lisp and Dylan is much more clearly stated in a way that's quite even-handed. In any case, thanks for the warning about conflict of interest. I will definitely exercise caution. Stefan Karpinski (talk) 17:36, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I don't see you doing anything wrong. Just a formality. Yworo (talk) 17:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Managing a conflict of interest
Hello, Stefan.karpinski. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on the page Stefan Karpinski, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:

 * avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization, clients, or competitors;
 * propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the request edit template);
 * disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see Conflict of interest);
 * avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see Spam);
 * do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Paid-contribution disclosure.

Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. Kj cheetham (talk) 13:27, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Stefan.karpinski


text:
Talk:Black 47

32 County Sovereignty Movement
Can anyone confirm that the band support the 32 County Sovereignty Movement or that former member Chris Byrne was all warm and fuzzy about the "armed struggle". How about the rest. AIUI Black 47 are (or were) with Galvin in opposing the pIRA/SF ceasefire. Any comments ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.111.147 (talk) 22:52, 2005 March 1 (UTC)

Hip Hop
Who categorized this as a hip hop group? They aren't. I guess it was a joke... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.231.119 (talk) 06:37, 2007 January 12 (UTC)

Expatriates?
Is Chris Byrne an "Irish expatriate", as this article seems to imply, or a person from New York City, as his own article is categorised? Alai 18:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Current events?
I don't know if this will make it into the main page, as it needs some verification, but I believe they were playing outside / inside BB King's in NYC on March 17th, 2007. The show was broadcast on WBAI, as part of the anti-war rallies / marches going on during the 4th anniversary of the Iraq war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atannir (talk • contribs) 04:33, 2007 March 18 (UTC)

not impartial
this article reads like an advertisement —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.3.137 (talk) 02:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Over two years on and it still reads similar to a press release. Can someone please drum out the fancruft, and pseudo rock journalism, and attempt to create a verified and sourced NPOV article ?  Thanks,

 * Derek R Bullamore (talk) 20:40, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

 * I've demoted some puff from the lede. Pace Higgins, the TIME quote doesn't really apply to this band in particular, but rather to Irish(-American) rock (in 1993) in general. And the "album of the decade" accolade is not as impressive as that might sound. jnestorius(talk) 14:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Unreliable sources
I have added an "unreliable sources" tag to the article as there is too much heavy reliance placed upon local media (particularly print media), controversial news sources (such as Irish Central) and blogs ( and ). Some of these are fine if they are in the minority, but they are not. There are a few really good sources here, but there's also a lot of "reviews" and the like which are not very reliable as they are based off of opinion as opposed to fact. UaMaol (talk) 19:12, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Black 47


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rickard Stark

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was merge and redirect to List of characters in A Song of Ice and Fire. Deathphoenix 17:58, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Note: to be consistent with Votes for deletion/Rickon Stark, I changed the redirect to House Stark, which seems to make more sense. --Deathphoenix 18:23, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rickard Stark
A Song of Ice and Fire again. This particular character has been dead fifteen years when the series starts and did not do much important that is recounted in flashbacks or the like. Fancruft. Indrian 22:52, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Rickard is too minor to deserve an article. DaveTheRed 01:56, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect. Redirection discourages recreation. -Aranel (" Sarah ") 03:20, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with more minor characters. Radiant! 15:20, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with more minor characters. If his entry there becomes too large, break him out. —Korath (Talk) 08:56, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge --VivaEmilyDavies 03:04, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with more minor characters ScottM 05:25, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge. Prompted by similar problems a few weeks ago I have tried to start a discussion about what to do wrt. merging on Talk:List of characters in A Song of Ice and Fire and would appreciate comments there. Thore 19:55, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC) Later comment: I have merged other Starks into House Stark, including this stub. This page can be redirected as soon as VfD is over. Thore 14:28, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
User talk:RadzynFessenden

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

Here are some tips to help you get started:

 * To sign your posts (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).
 * Try the Tutorial, and feel free to experiment in the test area.
 * If you need help, post a question at the Help Desk
 * Eventually, you might want to read the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines.
 * Remember Neutral point of view
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck!

Meelar (talk) 22:53, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:RadzynFessenden


text:
Paramahamsa

Paramahamsa (Sanskrit: परमहंस), also spelled paramahansa or paramhansa, is a Sanskrit religio-theological title of honour applied to Hindu spiritual teachers who have become enlightened. The title literally means "supreme swan". The swan is equally at home on land and on water; similarly, the true sage is equally at home in the realms of matter and of spirit. To be in divine ecstasy and simultaneously to be actively wakeful is the paramahamsa state; the 'royal swan' of the soul floats in the cosmic ocean, beholding both its body and the ocean as manifestations of the same Spirit. The word 'Paramahamsa' signifies one who is Awakened in all realms. Paramahamsa is the highest level of spiritual development in which a union with ultimate reality has been attained by a sannyasi.

Etymology
Paramahamsa is a Sanskrit word translated as 'supreme swan'. The word is compounded of Sanskrit परम parama meaning 'supreme', 'highest', or 'transcendent' (from PIE per meaning 'through', 'across', or 'beyond', cognate with English far) and Sanskrit हंस hamsa meaning 'swan or wild goose'. The prefix parama is the same element seen in Parameshwara, a title for God. In Hindic tradition, swans are noted for characteristics of discipline, stamina, grace, and beauty. "Hamsa" may be spelled "hansa." As described by Paramahansa Yogananda, author of "Autobiography of a Yogi" in which he states that hansa literally means "swan." "The white swan," he clarifies " is mythologically represented as the vehicle or mount of Brahma the Creator. The sacred hansa, said to have the power of extracting only milk from a mixture of milk and water, is thus a symbol of spiritual discrimination." Yogananda adds "Ahan-sa or ‘hansa (pronounced hong-sau) is literally “I am He.” These potent SANSKRIT syllables possess a vibratory connection with the incoming and the outgoing breath. Thus with his every breath man unconsciously asserts the truth of his being."

In keeping with the construct of Sanskrit, which often layers multiple meanings upon or within words, Hamsa may also be a religious pun or allegory with a philosophical meaning. One such etymology suggests that the words 'aham' and 'sa' are joined to become 'hamsa'; aham is 'I' or 'me' and sa is 'he', together meaning 'I am he'. Here, 'I' refers to the jivatma or jivatama, the living soul, and 'he' the paramatma or paramatama or supreme soul (the alternative spellings are due to differing Romanisations of the Sanskrit words). This relationship reflects of Advaita philosophy, which advocates the oneness of jivatma and paramatma. The word aham is common to many Eastern religions. From aham is derived ahamkara or ego.

Paramahansa Upanishad
The Paramahansa Upanishad is one of the 108 Upanishadic Hindu scriptures, written in Sanskrit and is one of the 31 Upanishads attached to the Atharvaveda. It is classified as one of the Sannyasa Upanishads. According to Ramanujacharya, Paramhansa is one of the forms of Lord Vishnu who imparted vedas to Lord Brahma in the form of Divine Swan as per Vishnu-Sahasranama.

The Upanishad is a discourse between the Hindu god Brahma and sage Narada. Their conversation is centered on the characteristics of Paramahansa (highest soul) Yogi. The text describes the monk as a Jivanmukta, a liberated soul while alive, and Videhamukta is liberation in afterlife.

The Upanishad, in its opening and concluding hymns, emphasizes the primacy of infiniteness of the Brahman and the Universe, with the Brahman representing the infinite. The Upanishad's theme is presented in four hymns as an explanation by Lord Brahma to Narada's query on the aspect of the path of the Paramahansa Yogis.

Mythology
The hamsa (swan) is the vahana, the mount or vehicle, of the god Brahma. In the Vedas and the Purânas it is a symbol for the soul/Soul. The hamsa is said to be the only creature that is capable of separating milk from water once they have been mixed; symbolically this is the display of great spiritual discrimination. It is symbolic for a spiritually advanced being who is capable of controlling the breath energy in such a way that he only absorbs pure vibrations from all the different energies the world contains. To the Paramahamsa (the supreme celestial Swan) on the other hand, the whole of creation is God himself, there is nothing else but God alone. This person is a fully realized soul, completely liberated from all bonds with the world, who knows no obligations, no likes or dislikes. He is without any needs because he is completely immersed in God.

Theology
Paramahamsa, as a religio/theological title, is applied to an adept class of Hindu renunciates, liberated, realized masters who, having attained the supreme yogic state, or nirvikalpa samādhi, can always distinguish between the Real (sa) from the unreal (ham).

The hamsa mantra indicates the sound made by the exhalation ("ha") and inhalation ("sa") of the breath.

Privileged use
Some followers believe title cannot be assumed by oneself, but must be conferred by a recognized authority, either another individual swami who is himself esteemed as enlightened, or by a committee of spiritual leaders.

Other meaning
Paramahaṃsa is also the title of one of the Upanishads.

Paramahamsa title personalities

 * Srila Bhaktiratna Sadhu Maharaj
 * Abhiram Parmahansa
 * Chandradhoja Paramahansa Dev
 * Dayanidhi Paramahansa Dev
 * Paramahamsa Shri Gajanan Maharaj
 * Kalna Paramhansa
 * Lahiri Mahasaya
 * Narayana Guru
 * Nigamananda Paramahansa
 * Paramahamsa Hariharananda
 * Paramahamsa Prajnanananda
 * Paramahamsa Vishwananda
 * Paramahansa Yogananda
 * Paramhansa Acharya Yogiraj Balkrishananda 'Mukta-Buddha'
 * Paramhansa Nikhileshwarananda
 * Paramahamsa Nithyananda
 * Paramhansa Swami Niranjanananda Saraswati
 * Paramhansa Swami Satyasangananda Saraswati
 * Paramhansa Swami Satyananda Saraswati
 * Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
 * Sadanand ji Paramhansa
 * Sivananda paramahamsa vadakara
 * Shivdharmanand Paramahansa
 * Srimad Durga Prasanna Paramahansa Dev
 * Akhandamandaleshwer Swarupananda Paramhansa Deva alias Babamani
 * Paramhamsa Vishwananda

title: Paramahamsa


text:
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Messhermit

In order to remain listed at Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {insert UTC timestamp with }), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is:, 29 July 2024 (UTC).

 * (Messhermit | talk | contributions)

Statement of the dispute
Messhermit is an intractable POV warrior concerning the article Alberto Fujimori. Unwilling or unable to accept other peoples' points of view, he inists that only his version of the facts are correct and dismisses all documentary evidence contrary to it as "biased". In addition, he breaches wikipedia etiquette in trying to enforce his views.

Description
Messhermit started contributing to Wikipedia in November, 2004, and has made some 75 edits. While he could potentially become a useful contributor to Wikipedia, he urgently needs to learn how to resolve editorial conflicts with users with whom he has ideological differences in a constructive, respectful fashion.

Together with another avowedly pro-Fujimori user, HappyApple ("i am supporter of the best president of all time" ( edit summary: "We need your help on this cruzade (sic)"), Messhermit is attempting to whitewash various aspects of Fujimori's presidency in Fujimori article. Messhermit rejects virtually every piece of documentary evidence which contradicts his opinion of Fujimori. He appears unable to accept that other POVs in the world exist and that they need to be represented as well. He insists that his POV is the only acceptable one. In his frequent heated responses, Messhermit skirts precareously close to ad-hominen attacks, insisting his fellow editors know nothing about the subject matter.

In addition, Messhermit frequently turns disputes in Peruvian partisan politics, which has no place on the Talk pages of Wikipedia.

Some of the difficulties may arise from linguistic limitations, but this cannot account for all the problems he has collaborating with others.

Evidence of disputed behavior
(provide diffs and links)
 * 1) Talk:Alberto_Fujimori In this talk page, we have been examining every contentious edit, one by one. However, every time I supply a citation in support of a assertion he disagrees Messhermit summararily dismisses it. For example, in response to my citing povery statistics and studies of human rights abuses from Peruvian government agencies and NGOs, Messhermit replies:

 * Look for yourself and see how NPOV is the Phrase "Dictadura Fujimorista". If you can find a "independe" investigation, fine with me. But the fact that that words are in that article completely disregard them as indepedent. Highly Biased. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Viajero, stop using those "Human Rights" "independent" information to support your statements. Those are clearly Highly controvertial and clearly a POV. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Once Again Viajero is poorly informed. See how (once again) the phrase (Dictadura Fujimorista) is present in those "investigations"? I believe that at least that source of information is higly POV, and that it doesn't provide an accurate picture about privatisations. The current government has sponsored many of this investigations, but none of them have manage to demostrate something that can be argue against Fujimori. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * As can be seen in the last statement, Messhermit frequently lapses into Peruvian partisan politics to explain things, something extremely unproductive.

 * Messhermit also attacks anyone who questions the appropriateness of using the word "terrorist" in a given context (cf, Words to avoid):

 * Excusing those who use Terror to achieve its political goals (Most of the Wolrd would agree that it doesn't matter if they are Right-Wing, Left-Wing, Anarkist, Eco-Terrorist or whatever) is wrong. Period. Peruvians are very concern and don't forgot about what Sendero and the MRTA truly are: Terrorist Organizations. [...] Messhermit 09:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Please, stop telling to us, peruvians how we must call this terrorist, The fact that our civil war is not as widely know as the palestinian conflict doesn't give you any authority to try to appologise those murders. you are acting of bad faith and with a double standar to judge things. Messhermit 15:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh, of course that Aministia international will defend them to death, since is their job to do that. I agree with Colombian President Alvaro Uribe when he said that they only care about terrorist and not their victims. once again, this is a patetic effort by yours to rewrite history. [...] Messhermit 15:19, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * This is really annoying. Go ahead and try to use that in the Palestinian Conflict, or about the Iraqui Insurgency. Here in Peru we have enought with people like "Lori Berenson" who tries to make us believe that those who use terror are rebels ore guerrillas. Please, As a Peruvian, excusing those who use terror to achieve its polical goals is offending. Messhermit
 * So you are saying you should be allowed to use this inflammatory word, but you understand why it's prohibited in matters where you don't have a partisan position? Sorry, but this is exactly why this is a word to avoid. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:15, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, so you are saying that I cannot be allowed to use the word terrorist, but in the West Bank Article, The word terrorism is stated 3 times, including the one saying Palestinian terrorism. So just becouse for some (badly informed) people don't considerated those as terrorist, I can't be allowed to stated what most peruvians think about those grups? I believe that that is acting with a double standar and with clearly a POV. Go ahead and try to convince a Colombian that the FARC and the ELN are rebel groups too. Messhermit 09:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * The atrocities committed by Shining Path and MRTA from the late 1970s through the early 1990s are well-documented, the Wikipedia articles on those groups, as well as related articles, reflects this, although there is still work to be done. Most fair-minded readers will be in fundamental agreement with Messhermit as to the nature of these organizations without any additional editorializing on his part, but the latter appears to be an obsession with him, as can be seen from the above comments above.

 * As should be evident by now, Messhermit strenously opposes citing sources ranging from Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International to the Peruvian government and the New York Times because they publish information about Fujimori which contravenes his narrow worldview.

 * 1)  On March 1, I posted a number of fragments from reports in the New York Times and the Peruvian center-left daily La Republica in support of the assertion that many Peruvians hold a negative opinion of the Fujimori regime. Messhermit deleted everything replacing my text with two messages:

 * Once Again, I confirm that you are poorly informed, Viajero. Stop fueling this discussion by adding those Highly Biased arguments, that clearly don't have any NPOV idea. THey are quotes of people that hate the former President, and also show their efforts to demonize him. I could load this entire page with information supporting the president, but i will not dout becouse it will only mean to gave you some justification to keep writing nonsence on this page. Those sources also show how you support your statements: POV and opinions of this corrupt Toledo Administration and those who support Terrorist under the banner of "Human Rights". Please, stop using this kind of rethoric and pathetic information. The former president is controvertial, but not even a 50% + 1 of Peruvians call it dictator. PERIOD. Messhermit 16:41, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * and

 * Deleted due to irrelevant sources of information and becouse it increase the size of the talk page withouth apporting any reasonable information, just POV "periodistic" articles) Messhermit 16:41, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * This action was a grievous lapse in wikiquette.

 * A news report published by AP is cited but Messhermit rejects it because it happens to be found on an "unacceptable" website to him:
 * [I believe it was Reuters, not AP. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:04, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)]

 * THAT's IT. Using Lori Berenson's Web page to support something??? As a Peruvian, I'm offended about how you can use that as a "independent" source of information. May I remind you that the Toledo Administration already sentenced her to 30 years in jail and that the OEA and another International Court say that her trial was fair enough???? PLease, with this, you have basicaly no idea about what has happened in Peru in the last years. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * And while he rejects out of hand the sources that others provides, he would prefer that others do his work for him, that we should find sources in support of his arguments:

 * And I'm seeing that you don't have a real argument to use against my precious sitation. Read and investigate much about that topic. You will find most of the information that clarify my arguments and ovbiously, reject yours. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Personal attacks
More than what Viajero mentions above, I'm very unhappy with Messhermit's personal attacks on Viajero; the following quotations are all from Talk:Alberto Fujimori Jmabel | Talk 23:41, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * "you have no knownledge of the atrocities that they cause in Peru...You have already proved me that you have no knownledge of Peru AT ALL"
 * Obviously not the case to anyone who looks at the exchange. -- Jmabel | Talk
 * "you are acting of bad faith and with a double standar to judge things"
 * I see no indication in any way that Viajero is acting in bad faith. I have asked Messhermit to retract that claim. And if anyone is using a double standard, it is Messhermit, who seems to feel that it it is his right to decide what points of view belong in the article, leaving out those he feels personally offended by even if they are from generally respected sources such as Amnesty International. -- Jmabel | Talk

Applicable policies
{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}
 * NPOV
 * Wikiquette
 * No personal attacks

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute
(provide diffs and links)

 * 1) Talk:Alberto_Fujimori There is abundant evidence on this Talk page. User jmabel has been particularly active in trying to guide Messhermit in the right direction, alas to no avail:

 * Messhermit, you seem to be misunderstanding the nature of Wikipedia. It is not a matter of proving that he was a dictator, it is a matter of citing someone reasonably authoritative as saying so, and being clear whom you are citing. And if you have a comparable citation to the contrary, then that also belongs in the article. Where there is a difference of opinion, we try to represent the clearest statements of all sides. Also, being popular does not mean one was not a dictator. The two matters are incommensurate. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:09, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * I see from the discussion above that one side thinks this is simple, and the other thinks it is more complicated. I also see from the edit history that the side that thinks it is more complicated seems to want to deal with it in the article by complete omission. That is obviously not appropriate. We probably need to quote different authorities on which constitutional provisions applied, and let readers draw their own conclusions from who said what, but I cannot imagine a valid argument for ignoring the issue. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * Messhermit, I don't see your point here. I assume there is no question of the authenticity of the photo, or of the fact that Fujimori deliberately put himself in the position for it to be taken. Given that, what, precisely, is the argument against using it. "Controversial" can't simply mean "I don't like it". It has to mean that there is actual controversy, based on some principle, such as factuality, editorial standards, etc. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:25, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * As for Lori Berenson "even the Devil can quote scripture". If, for example, her site reproduces a document, it is perfectly valid to cite it, just as it would be perfectly valid to cite a document posted on a right-wing paramilitary sympathizer's site. The fact that a Reuters' dispatch is quoted on Berenson's site doesn't invalidate the fact that it is a Reuters' dispatch, unless your claim is that it had been misquoted. There is no rule that we can only quote those who are generally agreed to be nice people. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:42, Mar 1, 2005

Users certifying the basis for this dispute
(sign with ~ )
 * Viajero 22:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Jmabel | Talk 23:41, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary
(sign with ~ )
 * –Hajor 00:43, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC) (And muchos kudos to User:Jmabel for his efforts to mediate this one.)
 * Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 17:52, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Description
The matter of dispute is not about the article of the former president itself, but about the sources and about most of the statements that they use to support their "politically motivated" edits. Until the end, I have tryed to reach compromise, but the only thing that User:Viajero can be satisfaied is by banning me and by seeing the article the way that they write it.

Viajero had said I only play partisan politics. That is not truth.

User Viajero is not whiling to arrange compromise in this article. Viajero continued to revert most of the my contributions without eveng bothering to explained why their were wrong. The article was in a poorly and totaly forgotten condition before my modifications were even there. In my first edits on the talk page(since I didn't Vandalize the page), I explained most of my mayor modifications.

But User:Viajero simply catalogate them as irrelevants and reverted to his previous work (withouth giving me enought explanations or explaining them on the Talk page). Unfortunately for me, Viajero didn't show up in the talk page and keep to revert the webpage every time that I tryed to stated something.

While I believe at the begining that most of his colaborations could be ussefull for the page too, I soon realize that he was already modifying other Peruvian-related pages, arranged them in a "politicaly correct" way that only satisfy their own POV.

I'm not champion of POV. I demand that to be retracted. Messhermit

Why this have reach this state
This arrise by the fact that they "prefered" to call "Sendero Luminoso" and the "MRTA" as "rebels or guerrillas", disregarding completely what is the popular opinion of the peruvian people and what the most civilized nations undesrstad by those groups: "Terrorist Organizations". As you can see, this is an attemp by them to stated their own POV under the banner of "that is not a suitable word" to give legality to their attemps:

 * User:Jmabel has "allowed" the use of the word "terrorism" 3 times on the West Bank Pages, and once "Palestinian Terrorism". In this article, He has failed (or has not seeing the use of this words) to provide an impartial judgement about the use of this words. Not objecting to the word "Terrorist" and not change that to rebels or any other NPOV word, is just having a double standar.

 * User:Viajero is also involve in another dispute in the "Sendero Luminoso" article, were he is trying to impose its own POV to most of the people on the article.

I accuse Viajero of using a double standard, judging things partially and using their own POV in most of those cases.

Viajero said also that I disregard most of the information of "Human Right" and "AP". I totaly respect any independent and well supported investigation. Unfortunately, most of the pages that User:Viajero has been using only show Personal Opinions of Reporters, most of them clearly against the former president. Those a POV, and cannot be used to reach a NPOV on Wikipedia, at least not by the concept that I have of NPOV.

And in those that involve the peruvian government, I have also give them enought evidence to make them qualify as merely POV.

As a matter of fact, I have get a lot of information from pages like the ones stated, but using only arguments regarding the history and events that happened during those times, wich are not questioned by both sides.

Lori Berenson is a very sencity topic for Peruvian Society. That Is why I felt offended when User:Viajero tryed to support some of his arguments with this. I request that this board made an explicit investigation about how "neutral" can be any source coming from the "FARC" or "Al-QUAEDA" webpages, since it was already stated that "even the devil can be quoted".

Also, Portratin the picture of the death terrorist does not help the webpage to achieve any other POV that accusing the former president of being the "mastermind" of those tragic events. I agree that they are extremely controvertial, but is an ongoing event (there is an investigation around it here in Peru) and should not be label so freely. My compromise was to create a special page that can discuss the events of the Japanesse Embassy, wich both Viajero refuse.

As you can see, probably the only mistake that I commit was getting offended by those arguments. I respect the "Human Rights" Assosiations, I respect any Neutral and independent source of information. But Viajero did not respect most of my ideas, only ignoring them and forcing me to apply a defensive possition.

I request the board that if any santion is applied, Viajero should be banned also in order to prevent further problems on this related topics. They have a clearly POV regarding this topics and have clearly failed to attemp to reach a compromise, since they will only be satisfied when their own words are writed in those articles.

Messhermit 03:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

About HappyApple and AAAAA
Regarding about HappyApple and AAAAA, the fact that they don't share Viajero's POV appears to be enought motive to prevent them to express its oppinions on the talk page and any other page.

The fact that HappyApple is an ardent "Fujimorista" (Becouse I know him from several years) doesn't desquilify him to use Wikipedia. As a matter of fact, He is involved in other Peruvian related topics that have nothing to do with this at all.

The Quote that Viajero is using to describing him was writed on a personal page, wich has nothing to do with the article in question or the main motive for this discusion. If they have ever modify the Page, They have done it to prevent Viajero from imposing his own POV.

AAAAA is involved in a case appart with the User:Viajero regarding another Peruvian topic. There is also an Ongoing dispute regarding "Sendero Luminoso" betwen this two parts.

But I Investigate that Viajero and Jmabel are ussualy distortioning several Facts about Peruvian History and also have a common interest in blocking anything that AAAA was willing to collaborte..

Viajero Is using this as a way to censorate both, I don't agree. The Dispute involved only Viajero, Jmabel and me. I request this Board to leave them out of this dispute.

Evidence of disputed behavior
I have put on Black most of the quotes that I considerated them as offensive and higly Biased. This only contribute to create more controversy and not helping the main topic:

Nobady is Judge or Jury
Sorry, I am not interested in debating Peruvian partisan politics in this forum. The facts about Fujimori are well known and documented, and that is what the bulk of this article should contain, as well as a small amount of space for presenting various interpretations of those facts. Politicians are politicians; most of them are corrupt or incompetent, albeit in Peru or any other country. If Peru had a extradition treaty with Japan, Fujimori would now be behind bars, where he belongs, sharing the view of the Callao harbor with Guzmán and Montesinos, and answering for his crimes like the two of them. And if he ever returns to Peru, he will be arrested, no? As for the privatizations, it was well-documented, in the Peruvian media, that of the some seven billion dollars raised by privatizations during the Fujimori era, only one billion ended up in the Peruvian treasury; the rest got spent on election campaigns, bribes, etc. Moreover, many of those state-owned enterprises, like the Cerro de Pasco mines, which I have visited, were sold far below market value to Fujimori's cronies, who have made a forture exploiting them. In a country as poor as Peru, that really is a crime. -- Viajero 21:53, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * One of the most offensives parts on this article is his intention to portrait Alberto Fujimori as a murder. Investigations have not finished on Peru regarding the culpability of the former president, and I don't believe that using Viajero's Arguments we, in Wikipedia, are giving a NPOV of the Issue.

 * Is he Judge and Jury with the power to determinate who belongs to jail and who does not? That is clearly a POV. Does one trip to Peru gave him the power to speek so freely about it? Does he has any prove to qualify my country "poor" or "rich"? Members of the board, I totally disagree with this kind of opinions.

Photos are not relevant for the Article. Must be classify on another topic
Although I realize that Fujimori cannot be held responsible for all the actions of Montesinos, in this particular case, as you may recall, Fujimori took explict credit for the outcome, posing for the press amidst the bodies of the dead rebels. DO you remember those photos? Here is one: http://www.aprodeh.org.pe/mrta/web00.htm

 * (DO YOU) Are a direct attack agains my integrity, since it is clearly trying to impose this POV on my person. Those Pictures are part of the truth I have never denied it, The controversy of the peruvian Embassy along with those pictures should be stated on another page.

Acussing me of faking information
Messhermit: the two Spanish-language quotations you gave, where are they from? I believe that you didn't just make them up, but who are you quoting? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:07, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * *In a clearly attemp to disregard another set of citations that I used on my defence, Jmabel Tried to gave a distortionated view about the sources of those quotations. The fact that he stated that "it might be made up" are a clear POV. I cited the webpages later. But I found this attemp as a clear attemp to disregard my work.

Treath or Warning?
There are very, very few hard and fast rules in Wikipedia. There are, however, a number of useful guidelines for handling controversial topics, such as terrorism (see Wikipedia:Words to avoid). A substantial number of editors, such as Joe and me, prefer to avoid labelling people "terrorist" for reasons explained on that page and discussed at great length on many Talk pages; namely, that it is not a objective, scientific term and it depends largely on your point of view. My preference is to avoid using it where possible and use the worda "rebel" and "militant", and to speak instead of "terrorist acts", which is less ambiguous.How about simply presenting the facts and letting readers be the judge of whether people are "terrorists"? It is a form of intellectual laziness to simply moralize about these phenomena; it is far more useful to try to understand them. It would, IMO, behoove you to spend less time ranting about SL and MRTA and more time understanding why they came into being. Indeed, SL and MRTA have been erradicated, but the societal problems that led to their creation have not been addressed, and in fact today Peru is demonstrably worse off in many ways than it was ago in the 1970a. So, theoretically at least, it is possible that violent revolution returns to Peru some day. '''This time you managed to destroy it. Next time, it might destroy you.''' As for the use of term "terrorist" in Middle East articles, this is and has been an extremely controversial matter for as long as Wikipedia has existed. -- Viajero 14:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * With all due respect, Viajero is showing a double standar to label the Terrorist Organization "Sendero Luminoso" and "MRTA". Those organization have been labeled (by most of the civilized governments) of the World as "Terrorists", and a overwhelming mayority of the Peruvian Population also uses that term.

 * The fact that My Preference is already stated on the previous article is not a clearly sign of POV?,

It also show how Viajero only relies on Highly POV information about Peru, since not even here such comparations have been made.

 * And the most shocking off all, the las quote: "it Might Destroy you..." How I'm suppose to interpretate that? As a treath? as a Warning? as a Joke?

 * Members of the board, I would gladly retract my previous statedment, as long as you can gave a NPOV interpretation of what he mean by that. For my, that was a clearly treath towarf myself and the Peruvian People.

Labeling me as "Neoliberal"
Gross generalization and neoliberal propaganda. Completely unacceptable.

 * Since when, members of the board, is permited to label somebody with those terms? The main topic was the privatisations that happened on Peru during the 90's, and I stated thIS:

The Problem with State Owned Companies at the begining of the 90's is the fact that most of them were completely overcrowded by the former Administration (APRA). Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Do I deserve that kind of treatment? I believe that we are talking betwen adults, not kids.

About "Offensive" remarks made by me
So you are saying you should be allowed to use this inflammatory word, but you understand why it's prohibited in matters where you don't have a partisan position? Sorry, but this is exactly why this is a word to avoid. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:15, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * The least appropiated person is talking about this. As I already stated, Jmabel does not have a imparcial attitude towards terrorist, since he has sponsored "allowed" (becouse is still on the article) this word on the West Bank Article. That is a POV and should be notice: the fact that he only wants to read what he believes is suitable for him.

 * I base this in the fact that has taken part on the discussion in that Page. USER:Jmabel has not attempted to even suggest to change the use of the word "terrorism" in that article. He si concern in calling the MRTA and Sendero as merely "rebels", but allowing other users to use the word "terrorism" freely? Members of the board, Isn't that proof that he is not judging with the same impartiality

About my previous statements, that are cited above by User:Viajero, I agree that can be controvertial. But I must also said that Viajero in any moment was willing to reach a compromise, and most of his attitude were stated in order to force me to reach that state. I'm a peruvian, And I find sad and in some cases offensive some arguments presented by someone who has not lived the reallity of my country and have a narrow POV about my country History. Effords to siminish the impact that the terrorist acts of Shinning Path or MRTA are simply annoyings, and information that are collected from highly biased Web pages (such as the one of Lori Berenson, an American-Born Terrorist) cannot be used in orther to present a Pseudo-NPOV article.

Disregarding my articles
That is your opinion. That they have no prospered might have something to do with the fact that Peru can't extradite Fujimori.. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * That is not my Opinion and they have not prospered not even in Peru. No Judge have reach a veredict regarding the former president and has nothing to do with the fact that he cannot be extraditate. The Japanesse government has merely said that it doesn't have relevant arguments to extraditate. Please, Stop saying that is my opinion. THAT is annoying. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Viajero Urges that his article support most of what he is saying. But completely ignoring mines. Is that NPOV? I don't believe that almost all my arguments be labeled as "My opinions". I found it disrecpectull.

About why I deleted those links
regarding this statement that is being useing above against my person:

(Deleted due to irrelevant sources of information and becouse it increase the size of the talk page withouth apporting any reasonable information, just POV "periodistic" articles) Messhermit 16:41, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm not saying that the NYT is Biased or any other Newspapers. If you look at most of the articles, the articles are not investigation, but rather periodistic "opinions". And if the Reporter is against the former president, it will obiously try to demonize him. I remove them becouse this didn't support anything but Viajero's own POV and it also increase unnesesary the size of the page, wich is extremely large.

Conclusions
Members of the board, I leave all my defense in this article and accuse User:Viajero and User:Jmabel of imposing his own Personal POV on the Fujimori Article, and clearly distortioned most of the articles related to the Civil War in Peru during the 80's.

There are no personal attacks by my part. If I have made a mistake, I have apologize for it. The fact that some of my arguments are used against myself are a clear view that they were forcing me to reach that level, and giving them some sort of proof that I'm the trouble maker. I totally dissagre with that and at the end I only look for the main reason that Wikipedia exist: A NPOV enciclopedia.

I already request several other users to help me to reach a compromise in the page, and I already stated a issue to lock down the page to protected from anybody who tryes to vandalice it.

Members of the Board, by this I conclude my defense. Messhermit 03:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Messhermit 03:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, This is my space to defend against your accusations. Do not modify them

Outside view
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~ ):

 * I tend to agree with Messhermit. Since I first saw the article about Fujimori, it seemed to me like totally BIASED AGAINST HIM.  Although he made mistakes (perhaps the greatest one was to associated himself with Montesinos), I firmly believe that Fujimori did a lot of good to the country.  Firs Velasco and then Alan Garcia DECIMATED the economy.  Fujimori restored the basic structure of the country to a free country (in economic terms).  Peru was and is still a poor country, and has many issues to deal with, but I think that Fujimori, with all people can say about him, did a lot for the people.  There was real development: Schools, Roads, reduction of bureacracy, realistic prices, increase in the real taxation income, etc, etc.  Other Presidents were pure talk and Fujimori was action.  Viajero & Jmabel think that they are doing good by supposedly NPOVing the article.  I think that they are helping Fujimori-haters come "victorious" with their point of view.  I would really like to see a more balanced point of view and Messhermit, in my point of view, is helping the article.  Maybe he needs more experience in Wikipedia, so I think Viajero & Jmabel should give him some slack.--AAAAA 03:23, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I noticed that i am involved in the article and this is right. I consider myself as a supporter of former president Fujimori, as i see his gabinet during the 90's and his presidency were for over many times succesfully then the dissray of previous presidents since the 19th century. Fujimori was a leader, not born in combat field, he was a teacher a man of science, who saw a country as User:AAAAA said, decimated and he could find a proper solution to this, and he was doing well. On the last years of his presidency a black figure was beganning to appear, Montesinos, who actually was the real criminal he was responsible for all the arguments that Viajero is discussing on the article.
 * I believe User:Viajero and User:Jmabel are trying to ban User:Messhermit by disagree with him about the article on Fujimori, however Messhermit has proves and articles from newspapers to support his arguments. He did not vandalized the article as Viajero did with a picture of Fujimori next to the bodies of terrorist group MRTA.
 * User:Viajero has many contributions to peruvian articles as well, but i dont think so (as he is stranger and foreigner) appropiate to do an accurate article, as his basis come from untrustable and probably missunderstood sources. He did not lived on Peru during the 90's and he also was absent in many aspects of peruvian politics. I believe he always want to stand his own point of view in any kind of article, such as my contributions on Lima article about the metro. I have other contributions as well in other fields such as chemistry as my major and i accept and agree when a colleague helps me, and this is the purpose of wikipedia as i think, a cooperation to made a withstand test of time encyclopedia for generations to come.HappyApple 05:02, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

'What kind of defense he can gave, if he is being target of frequent modifications and rotten intentions? What kind of defense he has if there is people want to destroy it?.' People like Viajero not lived on Peru, 90's was a decade in which Peru struggled to come back to stability.HappyApple 05:38, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * First i want to say, i totally agree with Messhermit.
 * User:Viajero has many contributions to peruvian articles as well, (as he is stranger and foreigner) it is obviously he cant do an appropiate accurate article, as his basis come from untrustable and probably missunderstood sources. This user thinks he can do contributions about Peru related articles, but it is not true, because he uses unaccurate sources, and he also disagrees in everything that doesnt share his point of view. Even he has suggested me do not editing the article about Fujimori. I considered this as a treat to my integrity as wikipedian.
 * Messhermit has proves and evidence on journals, and newspapers to support his arguments, however when he tries to explain his point of view, this happens, a group of strangers come and try to revert his contributions and even try to modify his discussion, even on this page,

I have lived on this country for over two decades, i have saw the destruction that those criminals have made on my country on my city, and i must say they deserve that title, they were people who used terror, to come back rotten ideals of communism.HappyApple 06:11, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * By the way i have noticed some in particular, that Messhermit cant use the word terrorist to refer the MRTA group, he must use the word rebels, but i have noticed too, in the West Bank article is refered about Palestinian groups as terrorists, if this word is prefered to avoid (terrorist), why it seems to be a double standard to use this word.

 * I feel that User:Messhermit is being unfairly railroaded, and that the article on Fujimori is unbalanced against the man, and favorable to the rebels (widely seen as terrorists), clearly failing to achieve NPOV. This RfC should not be about User:Messhermit, but rather about the POV problems in the article in question. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 19:25, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Sam, are you saying that it is appropriate for him to say "You have already proved me that you have no knownledge [sic] of Peru AT ALL" and "you are acting of [sic] bad faith"? And to refuse to consider Amnesty International a legitimate, citable source? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:38, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not saying he was right in those statements, but they are no cause for an RfC, and are certainly not personal attacks. Personal attacks are crass, off topic ad hominems, not the accusation that a user is generally ignorant of peru (which could be true, for all I know ;) Also, disputing the quality of a given reference hardly merits an RfC. This is all a distraction from the real problem, namely glaring POV on the Fujimori article. In summary, Messhermit is not the problem here, the promlem is the Fujimori article and its talkpage. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:23, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Sam, on your own talk page, you admitted "knowing next to nothing about Fujimori", so I am wondering with what authority you can possibly pass judgement on the qualities of the article. -- Viajero 13:58, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Its easy to notice bias, regardless of ones familiarity w a subject. What I read on Fujimori was POV hackjob. That sort oif slander serves no one. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 19:47, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Discussion
All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.

I am not "trying to ban" anyone. Viajero started a request for comment on Messhermit's behavior. I endorsed the accuracy of what he said. I am not disagreeing with Messhermit's being allowed to argue his substantive points. I endorsed Viajero's objection to being on the receiving end of personal attacks. Messhermit seems to be responding to that by making personal attacks on me as well, including an absolutely unfounded attack with reference to the West Bank article. If you look at my edits in Talk:Alberto Fujimori you will see that on substantive issues I had about as many criticisms of one version of the article as of the other. I came into this with no animus against Messhermit, but now that he is attacking my behavior, I am asking him either to retract those attacks or formalize them. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:31, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

I also wish to point out that this RfC is not about whether to use the word "terrorist" in the article "Alberto Fujimori". As far as I am concerned, it is mainly about personal attacks. I believe that Messhermit has made enough of them on this RfC page to prove the point. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:35, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

Your attitude toward me is clearly partial.

You are clearly trying to make me look to all the other users as If I'm a constant trouble maker. Also I already stated that you have failed to prevent the use of the word "terrorism" in the West Bank Article, Wich clearly shows your lack of impartiality.

The fact that both of you are trying to use my "conduct" as a merely escuse to bann me from defending what I concidered to be right, Is even more un-ethical that my own statements.

As I already stated. Any ofensive action that I have ever made, I have appologise. (I might have made a terrible impression on the WEst Bank Article, but I clearly retract and started to reach compromise).

Aslo, Once again, if you have anything to say, don't do it in my defense. How can I defend If you keep distortioning my arguments? I consider that a clear attemp to evade what I must say. Messhermit 16:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * 1) What I want is for you to stop making personal attacks, and to seek genuine consensus in working on articles.
 * 2) Where does this claim come from that I am "trying to ban" you? I could not be clearer about the fact that I have not suggested that. However, your removal of my comments from this page is unconscionable. As can easily seen by examining the history of this page, Messhermit removed nearly all of my responses to what he said. I am reproducing them here. If these are removed again, my moderation in respect of suggested remedy will be a thing of the past.
 * 3) Messhermit is substantively changing his own remarks on this page after the fact, which makes the sequence of this extremely hard to understand. I believe that edits like that should be done with strikethrough, so it is clear what is being said. In one place above, the word "sponsored", I have taken the liberty of restoring his previous wording, with strikethrough, because I think it is crucial to see that he changed what he said. In the others, I have let this stand, but I object to the practice. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:27, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) *Messhermit seems now also to have deleted, rather than struck through, most of his own accusations against me on this page; others he's struck through. For those who wish to understand what I was responding to see the last revision of this page before his self-deletions. As you can see, there were about half a dozen other accusations against me. I thank him for the retraction, but would have preferred that he use strikethrough, so the exchange would be visible. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel] | Talk 02:10, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel's remarks Messhermit removed

 * I am not "trying to ban" anyone. Viajero started a request for comment on Messhermit's behavior. I endorsed the accuracy of what he said. I am not disagreeing with Messhermit's being allowed to argue his substantive points. I endorsed Viajero's objection to being on the receiving end of personal attacks. Messhermit seems to be responding to that by making personal attacks on me as well, including an absolutely unfounded attack with reference to the West Bank article. If you look at my edits in Talk:Alberto Fujimori you will see that on substantive issues I had about as many criticisms of one version of the article as of the other. I came into this with no animus against Messhermit, but now that he is attacking my behavior, I am asking him either to retract those attacks or formalize them. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:31, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * The issue is not partisan politics, it is (1) Messhermit's behavior and (2) his refusal to countenance appropriate sources when they don't suit his purpose.
 * Those who know my work will presumably find the claim that I am a POV warrior on Peruvian politics absurd, but if Messhermit thinks he has a case to make, I would welcome the RfC. Most of my (rather small amount of) work related to Peru relates to events before 1900. The only thing I can think of that he could be alluding to that makes any sense at all is my insistance in "Sendero Luminoso" as in this article that the word "terrorist" should always be used with attribution, rather than in the narrative voice of the article. I take the same stance with reference to ETA, the CIA, the IRA, the Irgun, and the PLO. I would hope that Messhermit understands that I am not a partisan of all of these groups. Indeed, I am not a partisan of any of these groups. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:22, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * I have never edited the article West Bank. I have edited its talk page (1) to question the assertion that the term "Judea and Samaria" has any currency outside of Israel, (2) to support the notion that the term "West Bank" should be used starting in 1948, not 1967, and (3) to insist that the same verb ("seized", "captured:, whatever) be applied to the territories taken in 1948 by Israel on the one hand and by Jordan and Egypt on the other. How have I 'sponsored the use of the word "terrorism"'? If Messhermit will not either substantiate or retract this comment, we have an additional point of dispute here: lies. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:32, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * (with reference to "you didn't just make them up")
 * Reread what I wrote. You quote me accurately (although the bolding is yours). I stated that I believed that you didn't make up the quotes, and I asked you for your source, because you gave none, and they were useless without a citation. What is objectionable in that? What is distorted? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:37, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * (with reference to reiteration of West Bank issue)
 * As above, either substantiate this accusation against me or retract it. --

Jmabel | Talk 04:39, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel's conduct
In response to my request that Messhermit either substantiate or retract his claim that I "sponsored" the use of the word "terrorism" on the West Bank page, he modified "sponsored" to "allowed". His revised accusation against me is as follows.

"User:Jmabel has 'allowed' the use of the word 'terrorism' 3 times on the West Bank Pages, and once 'Palestinian Terrorism'. In this article, He has failed (or has not seeing the use of this words) to provide an impartial judgement about the use of this words. Not objecting to the word 'Terrorist' and not change that to rebels or any other NPOV word, is just having a double standar."

I think it is absurd to claim that the fact that I've commented on three issues on a talk page makes me personally responsible for the entire content of the article. That said, I will raise the issue there about unattributed use of the word "terrorism". Frankly, I hadn't noticed it. It was probably there before I watchlisted the article, and all of my comments on the talk page have been in response to specific edits, either to the talk page or to the article.

If further discussion of my conduct is in order, start an RfC about me. I will not further defend myself on this page. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:27, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify: these accusations against me appear now to have been retracted. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:10, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Seems to have been informally resolved
It looks like, in fact, the discussion here has been reasonably constructive and that editing of the article Alberto Fujimori is now moving forward in a manner typical of a controversial topic. I want to say specifically and clearly that Messhermit has, in the last few days, been much more cooperative in working on the article, and while he may not be the most cooperative Wikipedian I've seen, his behavior this last few days appears to me to be entirely within the range of the appropriate and acceptable. In particular, he seems to be refraining from further ad hominem attacks. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:45, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)


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Talk:Cotswolds

Geographical location of the Cotswolds
I grew up in the Cotswolds (Painswick, Glos), and no, they are not described by people who live there as "south central England"; there is a strong identity with the South-West. That said, the northern end of the Cotswolds is more clearly "south midlands"; a Proper Printed Book to hand lists Gloucestershire and Worcestershire in something called "Lower Middle England", which sounds like an attempt at "southern midlands". The problem with "south central England" is that as shown on the outline map, to a person who thought that Wales was part of England, it does look right in the middle, but to a person who knows about Wales, the cotswolds are plainly to the west. To me, "south central" sounds more like the Isle of Wight or Hampshire, though the same PPB lists those under just "southern England", which seems reasonable. "Let's discuss!" Imaginatorium (talk) 11:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

 * I'm from Stroud and would agree with the above. I do at the moment currently reside in Northamptonshire and especially in the Southwest of the county particularly in places like Brackley, Aynho and Croughton, it looks and feels very much like the northern Cotswolds in particular places like Stow and Moreton-in-Marsh. Be interested in hearing more thoughts on this to be honest. I supplied a link on an edit I did of a 'Natural England' National Character Area Profile which seems to suggest that the Cotswolds do extend from Somerset all the way to South-west Northamptonshire. I don't think it came through quite well when I added it, but was an interesting document nevertheless. http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/4868690241650688 Stroudie91 (talk) 22:53, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Sounds a bit like conversations around the Brecon Beacons (National Park) with some saying they're in mid Wales and some saying (at least largely) in South Wales - rather depends where you draw those boundaries and in truth they're best drawn in different places, if you're talking geology or dialect or economic ties or farming patterns and so forth. I'd suggest both landscapes, the one in England and the one in Wales are both places which help to separate what I shall loosely call regions and the description of their location might best take account of that. cheers Geopersona (talk) 16:31, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
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 * Castle combe cotswolds.jpg
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title: Talk:Cotswolds


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Special K (disambiguation)

Special K is a breakfast cereal manufactured by Kellogg Company.

Special K may also refer to:

People

 * Stagenamed:
 * Special K (rapper), a rapper and original member of the Treacherous Three

 * Nicknamed:
 * Kell Brook, boxer
 * Kevin Daley, basketball player
 * Karmichael Hunt, rugby league footballer
 * Greg Kelser, American basketball player and color commentator
 * Alan Kulwicki, American race car driver
 * Thanasi Kokkinakis, tennis player
 * Keir Starmer, British prime minister (see List of nicknames of prime ministers of the United Kingdom)

Art, entertainment, and media

 * "Special K" (song), a song by the rock band Placebo
 * Special K: The Wisdom of Terry Kay, a 2000 book by Terry Kay

Other uses

 * Special K, a nickname for the drug ketamine
 * Special Kay, the last airworthy Douglas B-26K Invader owned and being restored by the Pacific Prowler organization in Fort Worth, Texas

title: Special K (disambiguation)


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Bust (magazine)

Bust is a women's lifestyle magazine that is published four times a year. The magazine was started by Debbie Stoller and Laurie Henzel and is currently published by Street Media LLC. Bust covers music, news, crafts, art, sex, and fashion from an independent ("indie"), third wave feminist perspective. The magazine's slogan is "For women with something to get off their chest."

Content
In the book titled Girl Culture: An Encyclopedia Volume 1, Miranda Campbell wrote a section on Bust and its features, including "Real Life: Crafts, Cooking, Home and Hearth" which encourages readers to make their own items instead of buying them, "Fashion and Booty" which suggests clothing, accessories, and other novelty items readers might be interested in purchasing, and articles on car maintenance featuring auto technician Lucille Treganowan. BUST magazine promotes a balance of contributing to consumerism as well as encouragement of independence from consumerism. The magazine also features articles on issues about sex in which they encourage women to embrace their sexuality and each issue also includes an erotic short story.

Many mainstream and indie actors, directors, comedians, and musicians have appeared on the cover.

History
Bust was founded in New York City in 1993 by Stoller (using the alias "Celina Hex"), Henzel, and Marcelle Karp (using the alias "Betty Boob"). The trio founded BUST after meeting at Nickelodeon; they wanted to create a positive and outspoken women's magazine for their generation. "Our intention," Stoller said, "was to start a magazine that would be a real alternative to Vogue, Cosmo, Mademoiselle, and Glamour, something that was as fierce and as funny and as pro-female as the women we knew." She said the women she knew who read the Cosmos of the world "always ended up feeling bad afterward. They support very stereotypical ideas about women." BUST started off as a zine, with Stoller, Henzel, and Karp photocopying, stapling, and distributing the issues themselves after work and on weekends. After receiving positive feedback on their zine, Stoller, Henzel, and Karp left their jobs to work on BUST full-time, putting out four issues a year.

Stoller named the magazine Bust because she wanted a name that was "provocative, funny, and also sexy."

Bust won a Firecracker Alternative Book Award in the 'Zine category in 1997.

Bust was purchased by Razorfish Studios in August 2000; one year later, after September 11, Razorfish Studios went out of business. Stoller and Henzel later bought Bust back from Razorfish Studios. Bust was purchased by Street Media, LLC in 2022.

Events
Bust sponsors the Holiday Craftacular, an annual craft fair in New York City that began in December 2005, and added a Spring Fling Craftacular in 2008.

On July 25, 2013 Bust held 'The Bust Magazine 20th Anniversary Extravaganza' in Brooklyn, New York. To commemorate the magazine's 20th anniversary, they held the 'Golden Bra Awards'.

DIY Guide To Life
Stoller and Henzel are the authors of Bust's DIY Guide to Life, consisting of more than 250 of the best DIY projects from the magazine's then 15 years of publication. There are guides for a wide range of things from gardening, to weddings, and sex projects, organized by category.

The Bust Guide to the New Girl Order
Stoller and Karp are also the authors of The Bust Guide to the New Girl Order which was published on August 1, 1999, by Penguin Books. The book has eight topics on female issues and includes the best writings from the magazine. There are essays about girls' culture, such as women in media, sex, fashion, growing up, and relationships with boys.

title: Bust (magazine)


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rickon Stark

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was merge and redirect to House Stark. Note: the merge has already been done. Deathphoenix 18:12, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rickon Stark
A three year old as A Song of Ice and Fire begins. Minor character. Fancruft. Indrian 22:57, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. He is the youngest son of the main family in the book. He may be only 3 or 4, but he is oft mentioned in the first two books, and his character will very likely be greatly expanded in later books. DaveTheRed 02:00, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes he is the youngest son of the main family and yes by book five or six he may be important, but right now he is just a wild four year old who whines about everybody leaving him and has a wolf that likes to bite people. Hardly notable for this encyclopedia in my opinion. Indrian 03:10, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * If he's not significant enough for his own article, merge and redirect. (House Stark, maybe?) -Aranel (" Sarah ") 03:20, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with more minor characters. If he becomes major in the next book, break him out. Radiant! 15:28, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with more minor characters. If his entry there becomes too large, break him out. —Korath (Talk) 08:56, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with more minor characters, he is just a minor character right now. (forgot to sign in the first time) ScottM 05:27, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge. Actually, I have already done so (together with some other minor characters). This page can be changed into a redirection to House Stark when VfD is over. Thore 14:31, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


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File:BoingBoingShirt1.jpg

Boing Boing logo artwork from its print days.

Scanned from a 10 + year old t-shirt.

Artwork is copyright 1990 by M. Frauenfelder.

Presumed fair use to illustrate the Boing Boing article.

title: File:BoingBoingShirt1.jpg


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Asian Underground

Asian underground is a term associated with various British Asian, South Asian Canadian, and South Asian American musicians (mostly Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Sri Lankan) who blend elements of Western underground dance music and the traditional Asian music of their home countries in South Asia. The sound has roots in the South Asian Diaspora, and many notable musicians within the genre are immigrants or children of immigrants. The first well-known mention was the compilation album Anokha - Soundz of the Asian Underground released in 1997 and masterminded by Talvin Singh and Sweety Kapoor. It is not a strict musical genre per se, since the specific sounds can vary wildly (from Cornershop's Bollywood-influenced Britpop to Panjabi MCs' bhangra-influenced jungle).

History
In the 1980s, performances of folk music evolved into the bhangra music genre, which would later become more mainstream in the 1990s and 2000s. In the 1990s, Asian underground was considered hip and broke through to the mainstream, with artists such as Apache Indian and Cornershop frequently entering the UK charts, with the former's "Boom Shack-A-Lak" (1993) appearing in many popular movies and the latter topping the charts with "Brimful of Asha" in 1998. The genre and other forms of South Asian music began to influence Europe's pop mainstream as acts like Björk, Erasure, and Siouxsie and the Banshees all released singles or remixes featuring South Asian instrumentation. Talvin Singh, known for his innovative fusion of Indian classical music with drum and bass, subsequently won a Mercury Music Prize for his album OK in 1999.

Asian underground music initially had only little influence on popular Indian music on the sub-continent, where it was usually branded under world music. While several Asian underground artists such as Apache Indian, Trickbaby and Bally Sagoo gained fame in India, it was only after Panjabi MC's international hit "Mundian To Bach Ke" that British-Asian underground music could compete with domestic Indian artists like Shankar Mahadevan and Remo Fernandes, in addition to attracting worldwide audiences. It was followed by the globally successful Rishi Rich Project, consisting of producer Rishi Rich and artists Jay Sean, Mumzy Stranger, Juggy D and Veronica Mehta. They were one of the first groups to fuse Bhangra music with contemporary R&B and found tremendous success in India after their songs were featured in mainstream Bollywood soundtracks such as Boom, Kya Kool Hai Hum and Hum Tum. Since then, Asian underground music has exerted some influence on mainstream Indian pop music.

Asian underground music has also influenced mainstream American hip hop, R&B and urban music in the 2000s, including artists such as Timbaland, Truth Hurts, Jay-Z, Snoop Dogg, Missy Elliott and Britney Spears. According to DJ Green Lantern, "Indian beats have now become a fixture on the R&B scene". Music produced by the Asian Dub Foundation has also been featured on the soundtracks for popular video games such as Need For Speed Underground. Several former Asian underground artists such as M.I.A. and Jay Sean have gone on to achieve mainstream success in the North American music industry, where they produced mainstream songs such as "Paper Planes" and "Down" that have charted highly on (and in the latter case, topped) the Billboard Hot 100.

Primary instruments
Asian underground uses many traditional and relatively new instruments. Its primary ones are sitar and tabla, and almost all artists use an electronic or acoustic drum kit and/or synthesizer. Some groups like Tabla Beat Science use an electric bass. Various other instruments, including the dholak, sarangi, and bansuri are also sometimes used. Vocals can be found as an instrument of emotional expression on many Asian underground recordings.

Notable labels

 * Axiom Records
 * Nation Records
 * Shiva Soundsystem
 * Six Degrees Records

Notable compilations

 * Anokha - Soundz of the Asian Underground
 * Eastern Uprising - Music from the Asian Underground, compiled by Earthtribe, released on Sony/Higherground
 * Indian Electronica volume 001, compiled by Qasim Virjee a.k.a. Abdul Smooth

title: Asian Underground