text:
Talk:Victoria, Crown Princess of Sweden

Succession
I wonder if the anon user who objects to accuracy and neutrality could explain the reason for his reverts here. His edit summaries are unclear. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  04:33, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

 * There is no "anon user who objects to accuracy and neutrality", because there have been no such objections. I suppose you mean me, though.  The edit-summaries, "stick to the topic", "Stick to topic & avoid pedantry", and "better writing", seem quite self-explanatory, taken together with the edits themselves.  Perhaps if you explained your seeming confusion, I could help you to understand.  64.180.177.195 (talk) 06:17, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Reverting accurate, clear, and neutral edits, as you did, would indicate an objection to them. As my edits were also on topic - namely the Princess' place in lines of succession - and "pedantry" is a subjective opinion, your summaries didn't clarify anything at all, other than perhaps a misunderstanding of the subject matter, on your part. Is that the case? -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  06:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that it has been a bit confusing to try to follow recent edits, the reasons for them and some of the unnecessarily masterful language in the summaries. Condescension from anonymous IP users can get on anybody's nerves. In any case, there is nothing non-neutral or POV-y about the British succession here. All legitimate Swedish royalty descending from the current king's grandmother Margaret of Connaught are in that succession. That is such common knowledge and so well-documented elswehere that I don't even see any urgent reason to source it here. SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:13, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's the old British monarchy vs 16 Commonwealth monarchies argument, all over again. GoodDay (talk) 17:15, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Condescension from anonymous IPs who follow one around Wikipedia to revert one's edits is particularly bad for the nerves.
 * Regardless, the singular focus on the British succession is biased because it excludes the other fifteen lines of succession in which Victoria holds a place. This pro-British point of view can be neutralised by the most minor rewording (though, additional work may need to be done to rectify the anon's other edits that didn't improve the sentence structure). I propose the following:
 * Through her father, a third cousin of Queen Elizabeth II, she is also in the line of succession to the thrones of the Commonwealth realms; unlike in Sweden, however, that line is governed by male preference primogeniture, meaning it places Victoria behind her younger brother, Carl Philip. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  18:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Cool. GoodDay (talk) 19:30, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Her father is related to E2R through Margaret - those are not separate heritages. SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:01, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Can anyone explain why there is a tag now that questions whether or not V is in line for the British throne (she is!), notwithstanding male or female precedence or the thrones of other countries? Shouldn't the reason for the tag be clear enough to show why it's there? SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I assume it's because the argument is being made that Vicky is in line for the British, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand etc etc thrones. GoodDay (talk) 23:19, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That would hardly be clear to a reader who sees a tag that looks like her heritage itself is in question, not how many thrones - or the gender issues. Can it be done so that we don't have that problem? If not, I'd like to remove the tag and let the discussion suffice. SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:01, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Remove the tag, since there's nobody disputing that Vicky is in the succession for the British throne. GoodDay (talk) 01:39, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅. SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why everyone here is speaking about a tag as though it were a  tag. There's a big difference. Victoria's place in the succession isn't questioned, it's the exclusion of the realms other than Britain that's at issue. Is there any objection to my proposed sentence above? --  Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  18:41, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The tag, where it was and how it looked, could only be interpreted by a regular reader as a tag questioning the neutrality of her heritage itself, not of how many thrones are involved or whether or not men go before women. That's why I removed it the first time and that's why I removed it again.
 * As to the question you want discussed, I see no way, in this article, to cover everything about all those thrones and all the gender issuses. It's not for an article about just one of the hundred's of heirs to cover that. It needs to be addressed in some other way, more generally.
 * What I do think is that only the first 20-30 people in line for Elizabeth's thrones should have any of this in their articles at all. It becomes rather irrelevant when you are the two-hundred-and-eleventh in line or so. That specialty knowledge can be looked up by especially interested readears in special articles about that heritage. SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:44, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

 * (See below) Are you planning on making changes in the British throne succession box, too? GoodDay (talk) 19:46, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not planning anything with that. Just giving my opinions. Would love to see the British succession removed from any bio page where a person is over 20th-30th in line or so. But I'm not going to do anything about it myself. 19:51, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Question meant for Mies. GoodDay (talk) 20:12, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I've introduced a compromise. I think it is silly to expect the average reader to know what the Commonwealth thrones are without mentioning the UK. As such, I've changed it to "British and other Commonwealth thrones". While Elizabeth is clearly as much Queen of Canada as she is Queen of the UK, most people best understand her has the latter, so the writing should reflect that. After all, writing is about conveying information to readers; if we want the best way to convey who she is distantly in line to succeed, we should make sure we include the information most likely to fill in that blank. -Rrius (talk) 22:29, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That's an acceptable compromise for this article & other bios articles of people in that line of succession. The British throne succession boxes should get similiar 'pipe-linking' too. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, well done. SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:43, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

British throne succession box
Actually, if we go with Mies' argument, the British throne succession box of this article & a few other articles, would have to be re-named. See Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark & Haakon, Crown Prince of Norway (for 2 examples). GoodDay (talk) 23:26, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * How meticulously detailed and how complicated do we have to get? Can't we just link to an article such as Commonwealth realms, that shows how many thrones are involved? SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:01, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd rather stick with British. GoodDay (talk) 01:38, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Succession rights to the British throne disputed
An anonymous commentator argued on one of the Wikipedia's talk pages that, since the King Carl Gustaf's mother, Princess Sybilla of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, married without asking the consent of the British monarch, her marriage is legally invalid in the UK under the Royal Marriages Act. Therefore, the King and his subsequent descendants, including Princess Victoria, would be illegitimate issue under British law and, thus, excluded from the line of succession to the UK throne. What does Wikipedia have to say about that ? 161.24.19.112 (talk) 16:16, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

 * the rule only apply to the first 6 in line for throne (2601:40:C001:8713:8876:8F3B:AC90:E57B (talk) 23:00, 15 August 2015 (UTC))

 * I think that's true now, with the recent change in the British Commonwealth Realms succession law, but it wasn't true then. —Tamfang (talk) 03:13, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Exactly. The marriage of Margaret of Connaught to Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden obtained the required approval of Edward VII. But that of their son to Princess Sybilla of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha did not. Therefore the marriage never existed in British law, thus Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden and his sisters were born outside of marriage, are not lawful descendants of Margaret of Connaught, and Crown Princess Victoria, though twice descended from Britain's Queen Victoria, is not in the line of succession to the UK throne. Ironically, this is not the case for Margaret's descendants through morganatic marriages, nor is Margrethe II of Denmark's claim to the British throne impaired even though her place in the line of British succession derives from her Connaught ancestress. FactStraight (talk) 06:38, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * So the son of Sigvard Prince Bernadotte (Luxembourg title) is in line? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:10, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

The Royal Marriages Act 1772 had an exception for issue of princesses who had married or might thereafter marry "into foreign families".47.139.41.212 (talk) 01:39, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Motherhood

 * On 17 August 2011, the Swedish royal court announced that Crown Princess Victoria was pregnant and expecting the couple's first child in March 2012. On 23 February 2012 at 04:26 CET, Victoria gave birth to Princess Estelle [...]
 * On 4 September 2015, the royal court announced that Crown Princess Victoria was expecting her second child in March 2016. On 2 March 2016, she gave birth to a son.

Any objection to deleting the first sentence of each of these paragraphs? —Tamfang (talk) 03:09, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Ancestry
Leave this here until there are better sources Sheila1988 (talk) 10:33, 23 April 2019 (UTC) On her father's side, Victoria is descended from the House of Bernadotte (Swedish royal family); the House of Windsor (British royal family), including her namesake Queen Victoria; and the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (Danish royal family). Her mother, Queen Silvia, is descended from German Brazilians.

I don't see the relevance of this chart. The only notable ancestors on her mother's side are her grandparents. Why we need random names such as Sophie Schmidt is beyond me. Surtsicna (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The chart isn't of important ancestors. The chart is just of ancestors. The relative obscurity of some of the ancestors is itself notable.Flyte35 (talk) 16:39, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
 * We don't need the names to inform the readers that here ancestors are obscure. "Victoria's mother descends from upper middle class Germans and Brazilians" does that perfectly. Surtsicna (talk) 11:44, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Again, the chart isn't of important ancestors. The chart is just of ancestors. We could also say that her "father descends from European royalty" and it would be perfectly accurate, but it wouldn't convey as much information as the ancestry chart. The relevance of ancestry charts is that they convey information about people's ancestors. That's the only relevancy that matters. Flyte35 (talk) 15:40, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Her father's descent is what makes her the future head of state of Sweden. This chart does not convey any information about her mother's ancestors. That her mother's mother's father's mother was called Maria Julia de Toledo Barros is of no relevance at all; it does not convey any information about that person or about the subject of this article. Surtsicna (talk) 16:18, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * That's an argument about the importance of genealogy itself. Perhaps you believe that only notable ancestors should be included in genealogical charts in Wikipedia. But that's a more general discussion about Wikipedia content. For this article the relevance of this chart is that it provides information about the ancestors of this subject. As you know, because we have discussed this exact same thing before, it's standard to include these charts for royalty and ruling families, whose chief notability lies in their kinships rather than their individual deeds. These charts are included because readers expect to find some background on ancestry that indicates the person's status, origin, order in the succession, multi-nationality, familial rise, degree of pedigree collapse, etc. If you believe that should not be the case, it would probably be more effective for you to discuss that in a more general forum. Flyte35 (talk) 19:17, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, this chart provides information about the subject's ancestors, but people like Emiliano Batista Soares and Johann Friedrich Waldau are irrelevant to the topic of this article, which makes that information irrelevant. "It's standard to include" because somebody spread these charts without any discussion. They are certainly not standard in biographies outside Wikipedia. Victoria's origin, order in the succession, multi-nationality, familial rise, etc, are impossible to deduce from mere names. And I strongly disagree with your suggestion that the chief notability of Crown Princess Victoria, a woman who has spent her entire life in service to Sweden, lies in her kinship to some Brazilian bourgeoisie rather than in her own deeds. Surtsicna (talk) 20:08, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It's standard to include this sort of information in these sorts of articles. If you don't think that should be the case I recommend you start a discussion in a more general forum. Flyte35 (talk) 21:29, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Where does it say it's the standard? Where is the discussion that led to the standard? Surtsicna (talk) 21:45, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The fact that so many royalty-related articles have such charts, and so often defend their retention when removed, has made them standard and means that they have been compiled and included deliberately by individual Wikipedia editors who thought the data important enough to edit in -- just like every other edit to this encyclopedia. Far more contributors have added or corrected them than objected to them. That reflects the fact that ancestry is among the kinds of information that those who look up royalty -- persons whose familial kinships contribute substantially to their notability -- seek, far more than is true for people who are of interest for other reasons. That observation is supported and reflected in the fact that ancestry charts are only exceptionally included in the biographies of non-royal, non-noble persons. I concur with the point expressed above by Flyte35 that the relative obscurity, as well as diversity, of some of the ancestors of this royal are notable and of interest, reflecting a pattern historically unlike those of most of her predecessors as heirs apparent. While it is duly noted that you find such information and some persons included therein irrelevant -- which is why it is accessible to you only if you actively choose to see it -- others of us do find it relevant for the reasons stated. FactStraight (talk) 03:40, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * There's actually a discussion, in which Surtsicna is involved, going on about precisely how to present genealogy over here, FactStraight. I think that's probably the place to have the most productive discussion. Flyte35 (talk) 04:11, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * So many royalty-related articles have such charts because they were copy-pasted without discussion and in many cases against vehement opposition (e.g. Talk:Louis V of France). The mere name of Victoria's mother's father's father's mother tells us nothing about Victoria. Surtsicna (talk) 08:57, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * So many royalty-related articles now lack such charts because they are being deleted without discussion and in some cases against express interest (e.g. Talk:Prince Edward, Duke of Kent). The name of Victoria's mother's father's father's mother tells you nothing about Victoria. It tells me and others ancestral information we value and seek in Wikipedia bios. FactStraight (talk) 14:49, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * So what does the name Johann Friedrich Waldau tell you about Victoria? Surtsicna (talk) 20:37, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It tells me that he was a relatively recent ancestor of the Crown Princess, that this ancestor himself did not belong to the royal class to which most recent royal ancestors belong -- let alone to one of the dynasties most connected to the House of Bernadotte, nor to Sweden's significant nobility or prominent families, nor to any other notable family, all of which is information I care about and look to Wikipedia's Ahnentafels to allude to. FactStraight (talk) 19:19, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The name itself does not tell you any of that unless you know by heart all the royal families of the world and all the noble and prominent families in Sweden. I dare say that you do not and that our readers do not either. All you get from "Johann Friedrich Waldau" is that the man's name was Johann Friedrich and that his last name was Waldau. Surtsicna (talk) 22:41, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It's clearly too detailed and irrelevant. If the purpose is to show the ordinariness of her maternal relations and the royal connections through her paternal relations, then that's done simply by saying who her grandparents are. Great-grandparents might be reasonable, to show Gustaf VI Adolf and the first four unlinked commoners. But great-great-grandparents? Obvious overkill. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:08, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The contentions that ancestry table content under discussion is "clearly" too detailed and irrelevant, and "obvious" overkill contradict facts evident in this discussion, inasmuch as experienced editors express interest in retaining that content in this article and explain why. Such assertions are dismissive of the views of fellow editors and are unhelpful in resolving content disagreements. FactStraight (talk) 14:49, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I recommend that other editors leave this alone here and participate in the more general discussion about policy over at the Template: Ahnentafel talk page.Flyte35 (talk) 15:26, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Found no such discussion when I followed that link. What this is all about, in essence, is whether or not Wikipedia should be allowed to be used as a genealogy site for name-dropping of a large amount of non-notable persons, not only in so-called Ahnentafel (isn't there an English word?) but in may other places. I am a firm believer that it should not. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:40, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Ancestry and kinship are of unique importance for royalty and nobility, wherein positions of historical importance and/or power, and territory or possessions that contribute to their notability are entirely or partially allocated on the basis of heredity. I seek allusions to that background as of historical. political and/or social interest, and find Ahnentafels a compact, inobtrusive and useful way to guide me toward that info. I agree that detailed ancestral information is much less likely to be documented or of interest for notable individuals who are not royal or noble. But since the vast majority of Wikipedia bios are not about such persons, including this info is adding such material to a small percentage of articles. FactStraight (talk) 19:19, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Victoria's descent from Johann Friedrich Waldau and Emiliano Batista Soares has nothing to do with her royal status, "historical importance and/or power, and territory or possessions". Surtsicna (talk) 22:41, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The fact that Victoria's descent through this maternal ancestor and others is not a source of her royal status her royal status, "historical importance and/or power, and territory or possessions" makes her exceptional among royal heirs apparent, and learning of such exceptions is not only of interest in itself, but also tells me what I do not see a need to research for evidence of such factors. Information about who her recent ancestors are, tells me who they are not, and I find that guidance helpful. FactStraight (talk) 20:34, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The names themselves do not tell you that. That her mother's father's mother's father was a Johann Friedrich Waldau does not tell you that Victoria is any kind of exception nor does it tell you who he was or who he was not. Surtsicna (talk) 18:34, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * If you don't find that learning the name of Crown Princess Victoria's "mother's father's mother's father" indicates to you who that person was, who he could not have been and, if that person was "Johann Friedrich Waldau", how her ancestry is atypical of Europe's crown princesses, alas, I cannot help you. FactStraight (talk) 03:41, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The link is wrong. The discussion is actually at Template talk:Ahnentafel. You are right, this name-dropping does not concern only extensive lists of non-notable ancestors but also extensive lists of non-notable descendants such as this or this. Simply put, WP:NOTGENEALOGY applies. Surtsicna (talk) 20:37, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Your views are inexplicably inflexible. It is virtually impossible that five generations are what's needed in every article. It is virtually impossible that no biography requires that a sixth-generation ancestor be named and that no biography needs only four generations. Your views on this topic go against the essence of Wikipedia. Your views go against standard biographical practice since this 5-generation-ahnentafel format is not normally used by biographers. In this particular case, no reputable publication on Victoria mentions any Johann Friedrich Waldau. That's what makes the ahnentafel "clearly too detailed and irrelevant". Surtsicna (talk) 20:37, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No one contends that exactly five generations of ancestral information is needed in every royal biography, because no specific datum is ever needed or required in any article if unavailable, other than evidence of notability. But there is no ban on additional information, and when available and considered contributory to understanding the subject's notability, it often is included and few articles lack some such details. Ancestral information on royalty is of interest and assistive in contextualizing most royalty at least to me, to those who enter it in articles, to some of those who correct or update it, and to others who in several recent discussions on this issue have expressed that they find it suitable and of value. There is no requirement that it be of interest to specific editors or to everyone: that is not the criterion of inclusion for information. Five generations has become typical in Wikipedia biographies of royalty, except in those recently, unilaterally truncated in spite of this ongoing discussion of the matter, suggesting that five generations garners a level of interest that has been editorially expressed by the editor who uploaded it, and which Flyte35 and I, at the least, find useful, standard and therefore support. As we have both agreed to different numbers of generations in specific cases following discussion, we have demonstrated appropriate flexibility. FactStraight (talk) 19:19, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * That Victoria's mother's father's mother's father was someone named Johann Friedrich Waldau does not contribute to "understanding the subject's notability". That much is evident from the fact that no reputable publication on Victoria even mentions a Johann Friedrich Waldau. There is no requirement that information be of interest to someone or to everyone but there is a requirement that all data be put "in context with explanations referenced to independent sources". The ahnentafeln never provide this context. The names are merely dropped. That five generations has become typical is due to template creep, not due to objective benefits of having five rather than six or four generations. Surtsicna (talk) 22:41, 28 April 2019 (UTC)g
 * I don't see convincing evidence that template creep is the source of that standard, rather than its reflection of a common level of interest in such information when expressed in the Ahnentafel format. It certainly suggests that to me as seen in Wikipedia for several years now. No precise number of generations is either prescribed or proscribed, but I find five generations a typical, reasonable, useful and appropriate number to include for Wikipedia articles on royalty, given that the information is included compactly and discreetly. If you would prefer more, I would support your recommendation because I would prefer more, but in a spirit of compromise I accept five generations as an acceptable compromise with those who prefer fewer. FactStraight (talk) 20:34, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This information is included compactly and discreetly because it's not reasonable and useful. Useful information is not hidden on Wikipedia. Five generations is appropriate in some cases but not in all, and there should be a good reasoning behind the inclusion of the template and of each generation. Since these articles are biographies, this good reasoning should come from high quality biographical sources. If no biography of Victoria includes an ahnentafel or mentions Johann Friedrich Waldau, neither should we. It really is that simple. Surtsicna (talk) 18:34, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * If you prefer that the information not be hidden from readers as it is now, except for those who click on the "Ancestry" section, I am willing to support you on that. I and others have provided good reasoning for the inclusion of ancestral information on royalty in this format at these levels. That you disagree doesn't establish that it is not good reasoning, but that there is not unanimity about what "good reasoning" is for Wikipedia content. Surprise, surprise. Wikipedia includes information about topics that is included in other sources, including print sources which is the form in which most "high quality biography" has been published, but Wikipedia's formats allow for more information to be made available and targeted to interested readers. Ancestry tables for royalty is a good example of that which I and others appreciate and utilize. FactStraight (talk) 01:48, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No, I prefer information to be included if it is found in reliable biographies of the subject. If it is not, it should not be hidden but excluded. This may sound harsh, but what you and "others" appreciate and utilize is significant only if some of you are published authors. If biographers provide a family tree that includes uncles, aunts, cousins, etc, but no great-great-grandparent, it means that an ahnentafel is not warranted. We are not here to assemble articles from whatever some of us find intriguing. Surtsicna (talk) 09:22, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Again, that isn't about this particular entry. That's about the template itself. If you think we should eliminate the template you can go make that argument.Flyte35 (talk) 03:43, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * My previous comment is very much about this entry (the subject is explicitly mentioned twice). Surtsicna (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Info box portrait
I just love the current info box photo. Let's not ever change it. It really shows her as she is. SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:04, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

"Mother: Silvia Sommerlath"
It is not in keeping with good encyclopedic work to mislead a reader into thinking that her parents were not married when she was born. The practice of always using a woman's maiden name in such context is a very poor one, no matter how unreasonably the policies of genealogical websites have influenced Wikipedia in such matters. SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Fully agree. The name at the birth should be used, it's a no-brainer. --Marbe166 (talk) 11:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Look at all her siblings. Their mother is listed as Silvia Sommerlath. Same for Haakon, Crown Prince of Norway and Princess Märtha Louise of Norway, their mother is listed as Sonja Haraldsen. In Denmark, the mother Christian, Crown Prince of Denmark and his siblings is listed as Mary Donaldson in their infoboxes. The mother of Elizabeth II and Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon This isn't limited to royalty either: George W. Bush's mother is listed in his infobox as Barbara Pierce. Beyoncé's mother is listed as Tina Lawson. All of that is it has existed for years and no concerns about confusion as to the parents' marital status have been brought up.
 * That being said, this is the sort of wide-ranging topic is best discussed elsewhere than on the relatively rarely-visited talk page of one article. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Many wrongs don't make a right. However, you are right, it should be discussed on a higher level than on one single talkpage, but such a place is hard to find... --Marbe166 (talk) 12:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The argument about all those other gals is completely irrelevant as per WP:OTHERCONTENT. Most users with years of WP experience wouldn't even try that. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You have to look at it from a genealogical perspective. Silvia Sommerlath is the only name that she has had of her own accord and not via marriage. Each individual is listed in the infobox with the highest title they held in their own right regardless of their gender. estar8806's examples are absolutely relevant. Keivan.f  Talk 22:53, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is about her name when Victoria was born. It was not Silvia Sommerlarth then. It's mainly about misleading readers to think that the mother was unmarried. The wording about a "highest title" is incomprehensible. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * For what it’s worth, her father, the current king, has his mother listed in his template as Princess Sibylla of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, not Princess Sibylla, Duchess of Västerbotten. 66.99.15.163 (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks to the IP for providing another example. We are under no obligation to change thousands of articles so that parents are listed by the names when their children were born. So what are you gonna do now? List Prince William's father as Charles, Prince of Wales since that was his name when the former was born, etc.? Yeah, this is actually the incomprehensible part; good luck getting consensus for that. Keivan.f  Talk 19:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I firmly believe that WP:OTHERCONTENT still is Wikipedia policy, not to be ignored at will. I also believe in our policy to comment on article content, not on othner editors, on article talk pages. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Victoria, Crown Princess of Sweden


text:
Bill Payne

William H. Payne (born March 12, 1949) is an American pianist who, with Lowell George, co-founded the American rock band Little Feat. He is considered by many other rock pianists, including Elton John, to be one of the finest American piano rock and blues musicians. In addition to his trademark barrelhouse blues piano, he is noted for his work on the Hammond B3 organ. Payne is an accomplished songwriter whose credits include "Oh, Atlanta". Following the death of Little Feat drummer Richie Hayward on August 12, 2010, Payne is the only member of the group from the original four-piece line-up currently playing in the band.

Payne has worked and recorded with J. J. Cale, Jimmy Buffett, Doobie Brothers, Emmylou Harris, Bryan Adams, Pink Floyd, Bob Seger, Toto, Linda Ronstadt, Jackson Browne, Carly Simon, James Taylor, Bonnie Raitt, Helen Watson, Stevie Nicks, Robert Palmer, Richard Torrance, Stephen Bruton, and Shocking Edison. He was a guest performer on Bonnie Raitt's album Sweet Forgiveness in 1977, and wrote its track, "Takin' My Time."

Paul Barrere and Bill Payne played several live concerts with Phil Lesh and Friends, from October 1999 through July 2000. Payne was a member of Boulder band Leftover Salmon from 2014 until December 2015.

In August 2015, Payne was selected to play keyboards for The Doobie Brothers after their keyboardist Guy Allison was called to work on an album project in Japan. However, in December 2015 Payne rejoined the Doobies as a touring member, officially taking the position previously held by Allison. In the few weeks of touring with the Doobies, he was featured with the band and Michael McDonald on The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon. Payne's temporary term ended in early September after the Doobies' concert at the BB&T Pavilion in Camden, New Jersey.

Other work
Payne was a pioneer in the development of online music communities. In the early 1990s, he contacted his fan base and enlisted the help of friend Jay Herbst to develop the Little Feat Grass-roots Movement. This model went on to be a template for many bands in the creation of their Street Teams, which enlist the help of fans for purposes of music and concert promotion. This method has proven to be an effective vehicle for bringing bands and fans closer together, and forging friendships between them.

Payne now also works as a commercial photographer.

Songwriting (selected)
Payne wrote or co-wrote many of the songs in Little Feat's catalogue, including the following:

 * "Snakes on Everything"
 * "Strawberry Flats"
 * "Truck-Stop Girl"
 * "Brides of Jesus"
 * "Tripe Face Boogie"
 * "Got No Shadow"
 * "Oh, Atlanta"
 * "Somebody's Leavin'"
 * "Time Loves a Hero"
 * "Gringo"
 * "Takin' My Time"
 * "Red Streamliner"
 * "All That You Dream"

Solo

 * Cielo Norte (2005)

Collaborations
With Bonnie Raitt
 * Takin' My Time (Warner Bros. Records, 1973)
 * Home Plate (Warner Bros. Records, 1975)
 * Sweet Forgiveness (Warner Bros. Records, 1977)
 * The Glow (Warner Bros. Records, 1979)
 * Nine Lives (Warner Bros. Records, 1986)

With Shigeru Suzuki
 * Band Wagon (Panam/Crown, 1975)

With Robert Palmer
 * Pressure Drop (Island Records, 1975)
 * Some People Can Do What They Like (Island Records, 1976)
 * Double Fun (Island Records, 1978)

With J. J. Cale
 * Shades (Island Records, 1981)
 * Closer to You (Virgin Records, 1994)

With Brian Cadd
 * White on White (Capitol Records, 1976)

With Stephen Bishop
 * Bish (ABC Records, 1978)

With Jimmy Barnes
 * For the Working Class Man (Mushroom Records, 1985)

With Harry Nilsson
 * Flash Harry (Mercury Records, 1980)

With Jackson Browne
 * For Everyman (Asylum Records, 1973)
 * The Pretender (Asylum Records, 1976)
 * Hold Out (Asylum Records, 1980)
 * Lawyers in Love (Asylum Records, 1983)
 * Lives in the Balance (Asylum Records, 1986)

With Curtis Stigers
 * Curtis Stigers (Arista Records, 1991)

With Steve Harley
 * Hobo with a Grin (EMI, 1978)

With Emmylou Harris
 * Elite Hotel (Reprise Records, 1975)
 * Pieces of the Sky (Reprise Records, 1975)
 * Blue Kentucky Girl (Warner Bros. Records, 1979)
 * Evangeline (Warner Bros. Records, 1981)
 * White Shoes (Warner Bros. Records, 1983)
 * All I Intended to Be (Nonesuch Records, 2008)

With Janis Ian
 * Restless Eyes (Columbia Records, 1981)

With James Reyne
 * James Reyne (Capitol Records, 1987)
 * The Whiff of Bedlam (RooArt, 1994)

With Rod Stewart
 * Out of Order (Warner Bros. Records, 1988)

With Gail Davies
 * Givin' Herself Away (Warner Bros. Records, 1982)
 * What Can I Say (Warner Bros. Records, 1983)
 * Where Is a Woman to Go (RCA Records, 1984)

With Steve Cropper
 * Playin' My Thang (MCA Records, 1981)

With Jeffrey Osborne
 * Emotional (A&M Records, 1986)

With Michael Martin Murphey
 * Lone Wolf (Epic Records, 1978)

With Dolly Parton, Emmylou Harris and Linda Ronstadt
 * Trio (Warner Bros, Records, 1987)

With Gregg Allman Band
 * Playin' Up a Storm (Capricorn Records, 1977)

With Jude Cole
 * Start the Car (Reprise Records, 1992)

With Diana DeGarmo
 * Blue Skies (RCA Records, 2004)

With Bob Seger
 * Against the Wind (Capitol Records, 1980)
 * The Distance (Capitol Records, 1982)
 * Like a Rock (Capitol Records, 1986)
 * The Fire Inside (Capitol Records, 1991)
 * It's a Mystery (Capitol Records, 1995)
 * Face the Promise (Capitol Records, 2006)
 * I Knew You When (Capitol Records, 2017)

With Colin James
 * Colin James (Virgin Records, 1988)

With Melanie
 * Seventh Wave (Neighbourhood Records, 1983)

With B.B. King
 * Deuces Wild (MCA Records, 1997)

With Bryan Adams
 * Waking Up the Neighbours (A&M Records, 1991)

With Stevie Nicks
 * Bella Donna (Atco Records, 1981)
 * Rock a Little (Modern Records, 1985)

With Cher
 * Cher (Geffen, 1987)

With Shannon McNally
 * Jukebox Sparrows (Capitol Records, 2002)

With Jimmy Buffett
 * License to Chill (RCA Records, 2004)
 * Take the Weather with You (RCA Records, 2006)

With Shawn Colvin
 * Fat City (Columbia Records, 1992)

With Carly Simon
 * No Secrets (Elektra Records, 1972)
 * Another Passenger (Elektra Records, 1976)
 * Spoiled Girl (Epic Records, 1985)
 * Coming Around Again (Arista Records, 1987)

With Richard Marx
 * Repeat Offender (Capitol Records, 1989)
 * Paid Vacation (Capitol Records, 1994)

With Neil Diamond
 * Up on the Roof: Songs from the Brill Building (Columbia Records, 1993)
 * The Christmas Album, Volume II (Columbia Records, 1994)

With Emmylou Harris and Rodney Crowell
 * Old Yellow Moon (Nonesuch Records, 2013)

With Art Garfunkel
 * Watermark (Columbia Records, 1977)

With Julia Fordham
 * Falling Forward (Virgin Records, 1994)

With Gene Parsons
 * Kindling (Warner Bros. Records, 1973)

With Barbra Streisand
 * Wet (Columbia Records, 1979)

With Maria Muldaur
 * Sweet Harmony (Reprise Records, 1976)
 * Meet Me at Midnite (Black Top Records, 1994)

With Shelby Lynne
 * Love, Shelby (Island Records, 2001)
 * Identity Crisis (Capitol Records, 2003)

With Jane Wiedlin
 * Jane Wiedlin (IRS Records, 1985)

With Dusty Springfield
 * It Begins Again (Mercury Records, 1978)

With Donovan
 * Lady of the Stars (RCA Records, 1984)

With Jennifer Warnes
 * Famous Blue Raincoat (Cypress Records, 1986)

With Melissa Manchester
 * Don't Cry Out Loud (Arista Records, 1978)

With Phoebe Snow
 * Rock Away (Mirage, 1981)

With James Taylor
 * That's Why I'm Here (Columbia Records, 1985)
 * Never Die Young (Columbia Records, 1988)

With Dolly Parton
 * Great Balls of Fire (RCA Records, 1979)
 * Dolly, Dolly, Dolly (RCA Victor, 1981)

With Leo Sayer
 * Endless Flight (Chrysalis Records, 1976)
 * Here (Chrysalis Records, 1979)

With Valerie Carter
 * Just a Stone's Throw Away (Columbia Records, 1977)

With Yvonne Elliman
 * Night Flight (RSO Records, 1978)

With Linda Ronstadt
 * Mad Love (Asylum Records, 1980)
 * Get Closer (Asylum Records, 1982)

With Rita Coolidge
 * Heartbreak Radio (A&M Records, 1981)
 * Inside the Fire (A&M Records, 1984)

With Nicolette Larson
 * Nicolette (Warner Bros. Records, 1978)
 * In the Nick of Time (Warner Bros. Records, 1979)
 * Radioland (Warner Bros. Records, 1981)
 * All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (Warner Bros. Records, 1981)

With Taj Mahal
 * Dancing the Blues (Private Music, 1993)

With Doobie Brothers
 * Toulouse Street (Warner Brothers, 1972)
 * The Captain and Me (Warner Brothers, 1973
 * What Were Once Vices Are Now Habits (Warner Brothers, 1974)
 * Stampede (Warner Brothers, 1975)
 * Minute by Minute (Warner Brothers, 1978)
 * Cycles (Capital Records, 1989)
 * World Gone Crazy (HOR Records, 2010)
 * Live at the Beacon Theatre (Rhino Records, 2019)
 * Liberté (Island Records, 2021)

With Tom Johnston
 * Everything You've Heard Is True (Warner Brothers, 1979)

With Patrick Simmons
 * Arcade (Elektra, 1983)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Bill Payne


text: User talk:68.121.194.35

title: User talk:68.121.194.35


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Boltmon

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. jni 17:34, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Boltmon
Nonsense. Possibly relates to some computer game, if so it should identify which game and probably be merged into the article for that game. -- RHaworth 05:44, 2005 Feb 5 (UTC)
 * "What links here" identifies it as a Digimon. If it's a "real" digimon it should be kept. Hopefully they can all be merged eventually. Kappa 06:55, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Digimon discusses his role as a star of the comedy/drama "Digimon 02: Michi E No Armor Shinka". Digimon, Pokemon and friends are evidently the soap operas of their generation. Unless merged, cleanup/keep. Samaritan 07:01, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, reads like an ad for an obscure video game or whatever. Wyss 21:57, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not notable even if a "real" Digimon (good grief!).  --BM 00:08, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable fancruft, minor fictious Digimon character. Megan1967 02:38, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Keep (From unsigned anon -- AllyUnion (talk) 05:30, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC))
 * Delete. -- AllyUnion (talk) 05:30, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Boltmon


text: User talk:198.53.110.254

title: User talk:198.53.110.254


text:
Talk:Cotton-top tamarin

Still a stub?
It seems that this page has a pretty complete description of the Cottontop.. anyone else think it is time to de-stub it? Katy 16:04, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * It contains well more than a couple sentences therefore is not a stub. Cburnett 18:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Significance of the name
Personally, I think that the article needs more information on the scientific name in order to "de-stub." Does this species have some sort of infatuation with their mothers? Or does Oedipus refer to something else entirely?

 * I did a little searching on the 'net and found that "oedipus" comes from Latin, from the Greek Oidipous: oidein, "to swell" and pous, "foot." Does this contribute? divokz 16:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Size?
This article does not list the size of the animal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.7.243.254 (talk) 21:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Another writer has now listed some of the physical characteristics for the species, but I will edit the organization of that section soon to make it more accessible to readers. Nsavalia23 (talk) 02:49, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Suspected incorrect citation
I added a "taxonomy and phylogeny" section, with the material coming from the Spanish Wikipedia. That version makes a reference to GROOVES, which I believe is meant to be Groves; however, the reference cited:
 * "" is a book I don't have access to. Can someone who does have access confirm or deny this? --Greenbreen (talk) 07:44, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Thoughts on expanding cottontop tamarin article
This article, as a top-importance start-class piece, needs some work. In its current form, the article is mostly informative about the species’ endangered status and conservation efforts. A number of changes are needed to elevate this article. First, a broader description of the species is needed in the top overview section. This should give more background on the species, including where it is specifically from since this information is only mentioned in an accompanying graphic. A behavior section would also help organizationally. Sections that touch on social behavior, reproduction, and diet should be added under an overarching general behavior category. Communication could also be expanded on and added to this behavior section. This section at present is mostly concerned with expressing emotions like those perceived by humans, but there is no discussion of alarm calls or many other forms of animal communication with more ecological validity. Any information on the cottontop tamarin's social behavior in the wild will really move this article forward. Though the cotton-top tamarin is critically endangered and there may not be a large population in the wild, there may still be evidence about their behavior in captivity that would be useful to mention. In general, the behavior section should include the types of groups (if any) the cottontop tamarin lives in. This section should also start addressing questions about kin recognition and selection, the role that nape length may play (i.e. possibly a “greenbeard” trait), and altruism and spite in the population. Nsavalia23 3:27, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Primary review
Nsavalia23, you did a great job adding to the article! It is now very informative, and I certainly learned a lot about the social structure and communication behaviors of these amazing primates. I made some minor edits to the article by changing some sentence structures and some wording. One suggestion I have is for you to cite the last sentence of paragraph 3 under "Cooperation and Altruism." Also, why is "Cottontop tamarin" never capitalized? I'm not sure, but aren't specific animal names usually capitalized? Ihyuan (talk) 02:26, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Ihyuan, thanks for your suggestions and edits! I must have overlooked the capitalization, but will make sure to go back and fix that. I will also be sure to go back and cite that hanging claim you mention above. Nsavalia23 (talk) 02:32, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Secondary review
This is a well written article. While reading, I edited some minor grammatical errors in the behavior section. There wasn't anything significant that took away from the effect of the article. I feel that the Cooperation & Altruism section is a bit lengthy. I think that if that section was divided into two different sections it would be more effective. I didn't want to change it on the article for you just in case if you had your own ideas for how to divide it (or leave it whole). Overall, a great article. Jeremy.winkler (talk) 02:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Jeremy.winkler, I appreciate your feedback and grammar fixes. I reassessed that section and have split it up into "Cooperation", "Altruism", and I changed "Punishment and Spite" into simply "Spite" for now. In the coming few days I will be sure to review these sections to make the distinctions more clear, particularly between the "Cooperation" and "Altruism" sections. Again, these sub-headings are likely to change again after further review. Nsavalia23 (talk) 02:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Tertiary review
This article is well-written and very informative. I also edited some of the grammar errors, specifically in the Taxonomy and phylogeny and Physical characteristics sections. I also reworded some things to make the paragraphs run smoother and to help clarify meaning. Overall, though, great job! WhitleyTucker (talk) 10:41, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

 * WhitleyTucker thank you very much for your additions to the whole of this piece. I have not yet started working on sections outside of behavior, but you and the other writers for this page have paved a neat path for doing so. Your edits to the clarity and flow of this page are also greatly valued! Nsavalia23 (talk) 02:44, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Recent Behavior contribs, future directions
This article has come a long way, the social systems and communication sections are now fairly thorough but will require further work. Mostly citation formatting and trimming/grammar checks will be needed. I am hoping to add two more sections to the Behavior section: "Reproduction" and "Dispersion and philopatry." While much of the information for both sections will come from McGrew & McLuckie (1986), the former may rely heavily on French et al. (1983, 1984), Savage et al. (1988), Price (1992) and Ziegler et al. (1993), and the latter should incorporate Patricia Neyman's work from 1978 and 1980.

While this is all a good start, these future edits and help from other contributors should hopefully jumpstart the Cotton-top tamarin article on its way towards A-rank or Good Article status! Again, work on the pieces outside of behavior remain to be edited in a serious way. In particular, physical characteristics, phylogeny, and conservation could benefit from more info/expansion. The opening section should also be lengthened, possibly with more location specifics. And of course, more pictures and feedback!

Nsavalia23 (talk) 01:48, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

 * Hi Nsavalia23! I have to say first that the cottontop tamarin looks really cute! I love the pictures shown in this entry. The article is very well-written and offers rich information on the behaviors of the tamarin. I mainly looked at the new communication section and corrected a few grammatical mistakes. The inline citation and Wikipedia links all look great. There is one thing that I am confused about. You talked about the "habituation-discrimination paradigm" in "General calling" but there seemed to be no explanation on what the paradigm is. I checked on wikipedia and there isn't a link for that. Maybe you can elaborate a little bit about what the "habituation-discrimination paradigm" is about. Also, I noticed that there is a gallery on the bottom of the entry. This is nice! However, if you can actually incorporate some of them inside the main text, it will be more interesting to read. I look forward to seeing your two additional sections on reproduction and dispersion and philopatry. Thank you for your hard work and earnest attitude towards this article. I have learned a lot. Keep up the great work. --Tianyi Cai (talk) 00:03, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I made some minor grammatical/wording changes and added a few hyperlinks. Overall, the article looks really good. Zhangt2413 (talk) 23:46, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Hauser
This article cites some papers authored with Mark Hauser, who is a well-known fraud, having fabricated some of his data. Whatever the merits of these particular studies, it might be prudent to find some alternate sources to cite instead.

Wikipedia Ambassador Program course assignment
This article was the subject of an educational assignment at Washington University supported by the Wikipedia Ambassador Program during the 2012 Fall term. Further details are available on the course page.

The above message was substituted from by PrimeBOT (talk) on 15:55, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cotton-top tamarin


text:
Stephanie Mills

Stephanie Mills (born March 22, 1957) is an American singer and songwriter. She rose to stardom as "Dorothy" in the original seven-time Tony Award winning Broadway run of the musical The Wiz from 1974 to 1979. The song "Home" from the show later became a Number 1 U.S. R&B hit and her signature song.

During the 1980s, she had five Number 1 R&B hits, including "Home", "I Have Learned to Respect the Power of Love", "I Feel Good All Over", "(You're Puttin') A Rush on Me" and "Something in the Way (You Make Me Feel)". She won a Grammy Award for Best Female R&B Vocal Performance for her song "Never Knew Love Like This Before" in 1981. Her albums What Cha Gonna Do with My Lovin, Sweet Sensation and Stephanie went gold or platinum, all through 20th Century Fox Records.

Early life and career
Stephanie Dorthea Mills was born to Joseph and Christine Mills and raised in Bedford–Stuyvesant, Brooklyn. Mills was raised Baptist and sang gospel music as a child at Brooklyn's Cornerstone Baptist Church. Mills began her professional career at age nine, appearing in the Broadway musical Maggie Flynn. After winning Amateur Night at the Apollo Theater six weeks straight at age eleven, Mills went on to become the opening act for the Isley Brothers. In 1973, Mills was signed to Paramount Records by Michael Barbiero, and her first single "I Knew It Was Love" was released. Mills was later signed to Motown after being suggested by Suzanne de Passe. Her first two albums there failed to produce a hit, and Mills left the label in 1976.

1970s–1980s
Mills's career took a rise when she portrayed Dorothy in the seven-time Tony Award winning Broadway musical The Wiz, an African-American adaptation of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. The song "Home" was first performed by Mills in the stage production and would be covered later by Diana Ross for the movie adaptation three years later. Mills’s commercial success in the music industry remained elusive until 1979, when she signed to the 20th Century Fox Records label. There, Mills found her niche in mainly disco music, recording songs such as "Put Your Body In It", "You Can Get Over", and "What Cha Gonna Do with My Lovin'". The resulting album, What Cha' Gonna Do with My Lovin', being Mills's first gold record.

She quickly followed the success with 1980's Sweet Sensation, which featured Mills's hit "Never Knew Love Like This Before". The single became a #12 R&B and #6 Pop hit in 1980, as well as reaching #4 in the UK Singles Chart. 1981's Stephanie featured a top hit for her and Teddy Pendergrass entitled "Two Hearts".

Her 1983 album, Merciless, featured her hit cover of Prince's "How Come You Don't Call Me Anymore?", as well as the #3 dance chart hit "Pilot Error", which was her first dance hit in the U.S. In 1984, Mills had her third UK hit with "The Medicine Song" (#29), which also reached #1 on the U.S. dance chart and #8 on the R&B chart. On May 24, 1984, Mills returned to theater to star in a short-lived touring revival of The Wiz.

In 1985, Mills's recording of "Bit by Bit (Theme from Fletch)" was featured in the Chevy Chase film, Fletch, and reached #52 on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Singles & Tracks chart, #78 on The Billboard Hot 100 and #15 on the Dance Chart.

Success for Mills had peaked until 1986, when her version of the Angela Winbush-penned "I Have Learned to Respect the Power of Love", hit #1 on the R&B singles chart. She truly returned with her next release, If I Were Your Woman in 1987 under MCA Records, which she was now signed. The hits from the album include the title track, originally a hit for Gladys Knight & the Pips in 1971, a three-week #1 R&B hit, "I Feel Good All Over", and "You're Puttin' a Rush on Me", to name a few of the songs released. The album reached platinum status. That same year, she appeared in the NBC TV special, Motown: Merry Christmas along with other musical artists and actors, performing the song, "Christmas Everyday", which was written by actor/comedian Redd Foxx.

Mills's success continued with 1989's Home album. The hits from that album include "The Comfort of a Man", the title track, a cover of her old standard from The Wiz and another song penned by Winbush titled "Something in the Way You Make Me Feel", which became another platinum record for Mills.

1990s
Mills would record one more album (1992's Something Real) and a Christmas album before being released from her contract with MCA in 1992. In 1993, she once again starred in the role of Dorothy in The Wiz. This revival was also short lived, closing after 28 performances. Mills released a live gospel recording in 1994 on GospoCentric Records entitled Personal Inspirations. The set was produced by Donald Lawrence and featured a spiritualized retooling of her hit "I Have Learned To Respect The Power Of Love". Thereafter, Mills took a break from recording to care for her son.

In 1997, Mills played the lead in a major production of Stephen Schwartz's Children of Eden in New Jersey, which Schwartz has called "the definitive production" of the show.

2000s
In 2008, Mills began a comeback with singles recorded with BeBe Winans and rapper DMX to name a few. She made a comeback in independently-releasing Born For This (released on Expansion Records in the UK) on August 3, 2004. Her first single in over a decade, "Can't Let Him Go", was released. A 2-disc, career-spanning greatest hits compilation entitled Gold was released by Hip-O/Universal Music earlier last year.

Mills made an appearance in the 2007 gospel TV series Sunday Best and was featured in a live interview on The Yolanda Adams Morning Show, where she mentioned that she has her own record label (JM Records). Mills performed prior to Pope Benedict XVI celebrating Mass at Yankee Stadium in New York on April 20, 2008.

2010s
Towards the end of 2012, Mills released a new single "So In Love This Christmas", available for download. In 2015, Mills was cast as Aunt Em in the NBC live musical production of The Wiz, forty years after her initial Broadway run in the show.

Mills gained media attention in August 2018 with her response to singer Sam Smith, who remarked in a video posted to Instagram that they did not like Michael Jackson, but the Jackson hit "Human Nature" was a "decent song". Mills' fiery response quickly gained traction as she criticized Smith in her own Instagram responses, both accusing Smith of cultural appropriation and referring to him as a "one hit wonder".

2020s
In November 2021, Mills participated in a Verzuz battle with singer Chaka Khan, at which both singers performed hits from their discography.

In July 2024, Mills returned to Broadway after forty years as Missus Hermes in the musical Hadestown.

Personal life
Mills has been married three times:

 * Jeffrey Daniel: (1980–1983), Jeffrey Daniel was from the R&B/soul group Shalamar.
 * Dino Meminger: (1989–1991).
 * Michael Saunders: (1993–2001), Minister Louis Farrakhan officiated the wedding ceremony.

Mills has a son, Farad Mills, who was born with Down syndrome. She also once had a brief relationship with fellow singer Michael Jackson.

Discography

 * Studio albums
 * Movin' in the Right Direction (1974)
 * For the First Time (1975)
 * Love Has Lifted Me (1976)
 * What Cha' Gonna Do with My Lovin' (1979)
 * Sweet Sensation (1980)
 * Stephanie (1981)
 * Tantalizingly Hot (1982)
 * Merciless (1983)
 * I've Got the Cure (1984)
 * Stephanie Mills (1985)
 * If I Were Your Woman (1987)
 * Home (1989)
 * Something Real (1992)
 * Personal Inspirations (1994)
 * Born for This! (2004)

Stage work

 * Maggie Flynn (1968)
 * The Wiz (1974–79; 1984; 1993)
 * Harlem Suite (1988)
 * Stephanie Mills Comes Home to Broadway (1989)
 * Children of Eden (1997)
 * Purlie (1998)
 * Funny Girl (2002) (Actors Fund benefit concert)
 * Hadestown (2024)

title: Stephanie Mills


text: Category:Turkish composers

title: Category:Turkish composers


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Femocore

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. -- AllyUnion (talk) 12:19, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Femocore
Only three English language Google hits. RickK 05:50, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, dictdef. Inter 11:33, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete dictdef. Sounds like the kind of genre record labels make up when they are trying to make their acts sound exciting and original. Rje 13:23, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Neologism. jni 14:21, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not independently verified as a recognized genre. Wyss 21:56, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
User talk:Andy Leighton

I just wanted to drop a line and say I loved your Rugby Union article. Living in the U.S., it isn't so common to find someone as up on the game as you. I used to play for the Univerisity of Iowa women's team, but unfortunately had to give it up when I moved. Take care. --orthoseeker 05:51, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Andy Leighton


text:
Talk:Louis the Stammerer

Stammerer
Why was he called that? I assume it's because he had a speech problem. Anyone know? 2602:306:CE96:AD70:D902:A224:EAA5:5BEE (talk) 01:03, 17 January 2018 (UTC)BeaMyra

 * I haven't a clue but it seems like he may have had one. Xdude gamer (talk) 11:44, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Language
His name in modern French is hardly relevent. What was he called in Frankish? 72.86.37.79 (talk) 08:52, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

 * They would've likely just called him "King Louis." Xdude gamer (talk) 11:44, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Charles the Bald which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:01, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Louis the Stammerer


text:
A Place to Stand, a Place to Grow

"A Place to Stand, a Place to Grow" (Ontari-ari-ari-o!) is the unofficial provincial anthem of the Canadian province of Ontario. It was written as the signature tune for a movie of the same name that was featured at the Expo 67 Ontario pavilion.

The song was written by Dolores Claman, who also wrote "The Hockey Theme", with lyrics by Richard Morris and orchestrations by Jerry Toth. Lyrics for a French version were written by Larry Trudel.

It was commissioned by the Progressive Conservative government of John Robarts for the Ontario pavilion at Expo 67, the World's Fair held in Montreal, Quebec in Canada's centennial year of 1967, and was used again in the following decades.

The song was featured at the Province of Ontario's exhibit in the short film A Place to Stand, which won the 1967 Academy Award for Live Action Short Film. The Government of Ontario maintains three versions of the song, an English, French, and a bilingual version that incorporates both English and French.

Cultural resonance

 * In season 8 episode 6 of Mystery Science Theater 3000 titled "The Undead" from March 8th 1997 the character of Tom Servo portrayed by Kevin Murphy sings this song.
 * In their early busking days, Barenaked Ladies would often perform this song, with their hometown of Scarborough, Ontario replacing Ontario.
 * In 2004, Jim Carrey sang the song on Late Night with Conan O'Brien when the show travelled to Toronto to tape four episodes.
 * An episode of Rick Mercer's Monday Report uses this song during a report on the massive grow-ops in Ontario.
 * In 2017, the song was revived for a television commercial promoting provincial commemorations of the 150th anniversary of Canadian Confederation. With the tagline "A place for all of us", the ad was designed to reflect multiculturalism and diversity based on real-life experiences, including scenes of a Syrian refugee, an Ojibway father and his son, African-Canadian parents, and a gay couple.
 * In February 2020, the Ontario government unveiled a new Ontario passenger license plate, which contained the slogan "A Place to Grow". The license plate design and slogan briefly replaced the previous license plate design and slogan, "Yours to Discover". However in May 2020, the new plates were discontinued after they were found to have visibility issues.

title: A Place to Stand, a Place to Grow


text:
Fat fetishism

Fat fetishism or adipophilia (Latin adeps - "fat" and Greek φιλία - "love") is a sexual attraction directed towards overweight or obese people due primarily to their weight and size.

A variety of fat fetishism is 'feed(er)ism' or 'gaining', where sexual gratification is obtained from the process of gaining, or helping others gain, body fat, not necessarily from the fat itself, though there is much overlap between these groups. Fat fetishism also incorporates 'stuffing' and 'padding', whereas the focus of arousal is on the sensations and properties of a real or simulated gain.

As a subculture
The fat fetishism community has overlapped with body positivity and fat feminism movements. The National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA) has worked as an advocacy organization for fat people, but was partly formed to help male fat fetishists and other fat admirers (FAs) find fat women to date and have sex with.

Fat fetishism as a community is predominantly heterosexual, focusing on fat women and thinner men. Fat fetishism includes both real-life and internet communities. Fat fetishism practices and subcultures include internet porn; "gaining" and "feeding", which involves eating to intentionally gain weight; "hogging", which is when men seek out fat women to sexually exploit; and "squashing" which is sexual attraction to the idea of being crushed by a fat person or people.

According to The Routledge Companion to Beauty Politics, "the gendered, raced, and classed power dynamics of many of these subcultures often mirror, reinforce, and even exaggerate existing racial, gender, class, and sexual inequalities." Sociologist Abigail C. Saguy has proposed that by objectifying women's weight, they are reinforcing the cultural importance of women's weight to their physical appearance, therefore also reinforcing gender inequality.

Feedism
Gainers and feedees are people who enjoy the fantasy or reality of gaining weight themselves. Encouragers and feeders enjoy the fantasy of helping someone else gain weight. 'Gainer' and 'encourager' are common labels among gay men, while both straight men and women as well as lesbian women often identify as feeders and feedees. Some prefer the term "feedism" over feederism, as it suggests a more equal relationship between the feeder and feedee.

While gaining and feeding are often considered fetishes, many within the gainer and feedism communities report viewing them more as a lifestyle, identity or sexual orientation.

Feedism is portrayed by media as a taboo or a niche interest. Negative media portrayals include the film Feed, which is an example of non-consensual feedism. Research has shown that the overwhelming majority of feedism relationships are fully consensual and immobility is mostly kept as a fantasy for participants.

The gay gainer community grew out of the Girth & Mirth movement in the '70s. By 1988 there were gainer-specific newsletters and in 1992, the first gainer event, called EncourageCon, was held in New Hope, Pennsylvania. In 1996, GainRWeb launched, the first website dedicated to gay men into weight gain.

title: Fat fetishism


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Grumentum

Grumentum (Γρούμεντον) was an ancient Roman city in the centre of Lucania, in what is now the comune of Grumento Nova, c. 50 km south of Potenza by the direct road through Anxia, and 80 km by the Via Herculia, at the point of divergence of a road eastward to Heraclea.

The main public buildings of the city have been excavated and are in excellent condition.

History

The first Lucanian settlements in the area date from the 6th century BC. The site was founded by the Romans in the 3rd century BC during the Samnite Wars as a fortified vanguard, as part of the creation of a series of fortified outposts in strategic positions: the city arose almost simultaneously with Venusia (291 BC) and Paestum (273 BC). The position was chosen to control important routes (one of which became the via Herculia in the late 200s AD) between Venusia and Heraclea and another road led to the Via Popilia on the Tyrrhenian side.

In 215 BC the Carthaginian general Hanno was defeated under its walls, but in 207 BC Hannibal made it his headquarters, where another battle took place.

In the Social War it was a strong fortress, and seems to have been held by both sides at different times but was sacked by Italic tribes. It became a colony, perhaps in the time of Sulla, at the latest under Augustus, and became important. Starting from the second half of the 1st century BC. the city was rebuilt with a series of public monuments in the Caesarian and Augustan eras.

St. Laverius was martyred here in 312 AD. In 370 AD Grumentum became a bishopric but soon afterwards it began to be abandoned. Due to the Saracen inroads (9th–10th centuries), in 954 a new town (Saponara or Saponaria, the modern Grumento Nova) was founded.

The Site
The site is a ridge on the right bank of the Aciris (Agri) about 600 m above sea-level, c. 800 m below the modern Grumento Nova, which lies much higher at 772 m.

Its ruins include those of a large amphitheatre (arena 62.5 m x 60 m, 1st century BC), the only one in Lucania. There are also remains of a theatre. Inscriptions record the repair of its town walls and the construction of thermae (of which remains were found) in 57–51 BC, the construction in 43 BC, of a portico, remains of which may be seen along an ancient road, at right angles to the main road, which traversed Grumentum from south to north. A domus with 4th century mosaics is also present, as well as two small temples of imperial times. Outside the walls monumental tombs, a Palaeo-Christian basilica and an aqueduct have been found.

The aqueduct had its source about 5 km further south and entered the town on the southern side of the plateau. It was transported on arches and emptied into a Castellum Aquae of which some ruins remain.

Many of the finds can be seen in the Archaeological Museum of Grumento Nova.

title: Grumentum


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Johann Wilhelm, Elector Palatine

Johann Wilhelm II, Elector Palatine (Jan Wellem in Low German, English: John William; 19 April 1658 – 8 June 1716) of the Wittelsbach dynasty was Elector Palatine (1690–1716), Duke of Neuburg (1690–1716), Duke of Jülich and Berg (1679–1716), and Duke of Upper Palatinate and Cham (1707–1714). From 1697 onwards Johann Wilhelm was also Count of Megen.

Early life and background
He was the son of Count Palatine Philip William of Neuburg and Elisabeth Amalie of Hesse-Darmstadt and was born in Düsseldorf, where he resided, rather than in Heidelberg, which had been largely destroyed by French troops during the Nine Years' War. He was educated by the Jesuits and in 1674 he made a grand tour to Italy. His brother was Franz Ludwig, Count Palatine of Neuburg, his sisters were married to Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I, Peter II of Portugal, and Charles II of Spain.

Succession
As a gift to Johann Wilhelm and his new bride, Archduchess Maria Anna Josepha of Austria, Johann Wilhelm's father ceded to them the Duchies of Jülich and Berg in 1679.

Johann Wilhelm later also succeeded his father as Elector Palatine in 1690. In the Peace of Rijswijk (1697), he was restored to many of the possessions which had been taken by the French, with the provision that the Electoral Palatinate not revert to Protestantism. This provision made him unpopular in the Palatinate and with Protestants.

During the War of the Spanish Succession Johann Wilhelm received also the Bavarian Upper Palatinate, which was returned to Bavaria in 1714. He died in Düsseldorf and was buried in the St. Andreas Church. Having no son, Johann Wilhelm was succeeded by his brother Charles III Philip, Elector Palatine.

Marriages
On 25 October 1678, in Wiener Neustadt, Johann Wilhelm married Archduchess Maria Anna Josepha of Austria. She was a daughter of Ferdinand III, Holy Roman Emperor, and his third wife, Eleanor of Mantua. The wedding ceremony was performed by Archbishop Leopold Karl von Kollonitsch.

The couple settled in Düsseldorf, where they led an elaborate royal household. During their marriage, Maria Anna Josepha gave birth to two children, but neither survived infancy:

 * A son (b. and d. Düsseldorf, 6 February 1683)
 * A son (b. and d. Vienna, 5 February 1686)

Maria Anna Josepha died in 1689 of tuberculosis. A couple of years later, on 29 April 1691, Johann Wilhelm married by proxy Anna Maria Luisa de' Medici, daughter of Cosimo III de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany. She departed for Düsseldorf on 6 May 1691, accompanied by her younger brother, Gian Gastone. Johann Wilhelm surprised her at Innsbruck, where they officially married.

Anna Maria Luisa became pregnant in 1692; however, she miscarried. Historians believed incorrectly that shortly after her arrival, she contracted syphilis from her adulterous husband, which might have explained why Anna Maria Luisa and Johann Wilhelm failed to produce any children. In 2012, after concern caused by the 1966 Flood of the Arno River, the bones of Anna Maria Luisa were exhumed. A scientific examination found no traces of syphilis.

Art collections
He was more popular in Jülich-Berg, where he erected impressive buildings such as the Bensberg Castle and led a lavish court which gave work to many artists and artisans, including the court painters Johannes Spilberg, his daughter Adriana, her later husband Eglon van der Neer, Adriaen van der Werff, Jan Frans van Douven, Herman van der Mijn, Jan van Nickelen, his daughter Jacoba Maria van Nickelen, her husband Willem Troost, Anthoni Schoonjans, Rachel Ruysch, Godfried Schalcken, and Jan Weenix with his daughter Maria Weenix. His enormous collection of paintings by Rubens can still be seen in the Alte Pinakothek in Munich.

His widow Anna Maria Luisa was the last scion of the House of Medici. A patron of the arts, she bequeathed the Medicis’ large art collection, including the contents of the Uffizi, Palazzo Pitti, and the Medicean villas, which she inherited upon the death of her brother Gian Gastone in 1737, and her Palatine treasures to the Tuscan state, on the condition that no part of it could be removed from the capital Florence. Therefore, these treasures are still to be visited in Florence today.

In Düsseldorf, the Jan-Wellem Square is named after Johann Wilhelm.

title: Johann Wilhelm, Elector Palatine


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Philip William, Elector Palatine

Philip William of Neuburg, Elector Palatine (Philipp Wilhelm) (24 November 1615 – 2 September 1690 ) was Count Palatine of Neuburg from 1653 to 1690, Duke of Jülich and Berg from 1653 to 1679 and Elector of the Palatinate from 1685 to 1690. He was the son of Wolfgang Wilhelm, Count Palatine of Neuburg and Magdalene of Bavaria.

Life
In 1685, with the death of his Protestant cousin, the Elector Palatine Charles II, Philip William inherited the Electorate of the Palatinate, which thus switched from a Protestant to a Catholic territory. Charles II's sister, now the Duchess of Orléans and Louis XIV's sister-in-law, also claimed the Palatinate. This was the pretext for the French invasion in 1688, which began the Nine Years War.

Marriages
Philip William married twice. He first married Princess Anna Catherine Constance Vasa, daughter of Sigismund III Vasa and Constance of Austria. The couple had a son who died at birth. Anne Catherine Constance herself died in 1651.

In 1653 Philipp Wilhelm married Elisabeth Amalie of Hesse-Darmstadt. This second marriage lasted 37 years and was regarded as extremely happy. They had 17 children, including the next two Palatine Electors, John William and Charles III Philip, as well as Elector-Archbishop Franz Ludwig von Pfalz-Neuburg. Many of these children have descendants today. In the early years of their marriage, the couple lived in Düsseldorf, where they founded churches and monasteries.

title: Philip William, Elector Palatine


text: User talk:67.38.131.254

title: User talk:67.38.131.254


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Charles II, Elector Palatine

Charles II (Karl II.; 10 April 1651, in Heidelberg – 26 May 1685, in Heidelberg) was Elector Palatine from 1680 to 1685. He was the son of Charles I Louis, Elector Palatine of the House of Wittelsbach, and Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel.

Early life
His parents separated after a marriage that had been turbulent for years and the mother retreated to Kassel. As a result, Charles grew up without a mother under the eyes of his authoritarian father. Charles's younger sister Elizabeth Charlotte ("Liselotte") was married in 1671 to the brother of King Louis XIV of France, Philippe I, Duke of Orléans.

The prince's education was led by the scholars Samuel von Pufendorf and Ezekiel Spanheim. Charles undertook his cavalier tour to Switzerland and France in 1670. In Switzerland, Karl fell ill with smallpox, which permanently disfigured his face.

In 1671, he married through his aunt Sophia of Hanover's mediation Princess Wilhelmine Ernestine of Denmark, a daughter of King Frederick III of Denmark and Sophie Amalie of Brunswick-Lüneburg, in Heidelberg. The marriage became unhappy and remained childless. Sophia later wrote about it in her memoirs: “The Electoral Prince, who had a very reserved upbringing, asked the Duke (Sophia's husband Ernest Augustus) to give him his advice in matters that he knew nothing about. But he seems to have been a bad student, because his wife never became pregnant.“

Rule
His short reign was not glamorous. He appointed his incompetent former tutor Paul Hachenberg as chief minister, leaving his half-siblings, the "Raugraves", out of favour. He brought back his mother from Kassel and paid her immense debts. Charles was of a weak and timid nature, marked by familial childhood experiences. He showed a superficial enthusiasm for military life. Charles was a strict Calvinist. The court preacher Johann Ludwig Langhanns became senior minister after Hachenberg's death.

Increasing financial difficulties in the state budget, caused by oversized households, passion for hunting and theater as well as military spending, could no longer be regulated by tax increases. In 1682, Charles pledged Germersheim to France for twenty years. He liked to stage expensive theatrical re-enactments of battles with sieges, ships, etc. and within a few years wasted the national treasury that his father had saved over many years.

Charles was the last Elector of the Palatinate from the Protestant Reformed House of Palatinate-Simmern; upon his death, the Electoral Palatinate passed to the Catholic Palatinate-Neuburg branch of the family. The rival claims to the Palatinate of his sister, Elizabeth Charlotte, Duchess of Orleans, Louis XIV of France's sister-in-law, was the pretext for the French invasion of the Palatinate in 1688, which began the Nine Years War.

title: Charles II, Elector Palatine


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Talk:Clementine Kruczynski

This page was voted on for deletion at Votes for deletion/Clementine Kruczynski. The result was to redirect it. dbenbenn | talk 06:02, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, I would agree with that result, the page is pretty useless and should just redirect. But despite this vote being apparently 18 months ago, the page still exists in itself and doesn't redirect.  What gives? Stevekeiretsu 20:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Clementine Kruczynski


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User:The Naturals

I am a student of physics at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. My main contributions to Wikipedia have had to do with songs performed by The Beatles. In my spare time, I play guitar and sing in a rock 'n' roll band called The Naturals.

title: User:The Naturals


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Guaco

Guaco, huaco, vejuco and bejuco are terms applied to various vine-like Central American, South American, and West Indian climbing plants, reputed to have curative powers. Several species in the genus Mikania are among those referred to as guaco. Even though it is not a vine guaco is also used to refer to Cleome serrulata, the Rocky Mountain beeplant.

Native Americans and Colombians believe that the guaco was named after a species of kite, in imitation of its cry, which they say it uses to attract the snakes which it feeds on. Tradition says that the plant's powers as an antidote were discovered through watching the bird eat the leaves, and even spread the juice on its wings, before attacking the snakes.

Any twining plant with a heart-shaped leaf, white and green above and purple beneath, is called a guaco by Native Americans, which does not necessarily coincide with which plants are "true" guacos, as far as naturalists are concerned.

What is most commonly recognized in Colombia as guaco, or vejuco del guaco, would appear to be Mikania guaco, a climbing composite plant of the tribe Eupatorieae, preferring moist and shady situations, and having a much-branched and deep-growing root, variegated, serrated, opposite leaves and dull white flowers, in axillary clusters. The whole plant emits a disagreeable odour.

Uses
It was stated that the Central American natives, after taking guaco, catch with impunity the most dangerous snakes, which writhe in their hands as though touched by a hot iron. The odour alone of guaco, has been said to cause, in snakes, a state of stupor; and Humboldt, who observed that proximity of a rod steeped in guaco-juice was obnoxious to the venomous Coluber corallinus, was of opinion that inoculation with it gives perspiration an odour which makes reptiles unwilling to bite. The drug is not used in modern medicine.

In Brazil, guaco (Mikania glomerata) is commonly used as a medicinal tea as an expectorant and anti-inflammatory due to its compound coumarin.

title: Guaco


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Huaco

Huaco may refer to:

 * Guaco, a type of plant found in Central America, South America, and India
 * Huaco, San Juan, Argentina
 * Huaco River, a river in Argentina
 * Huaco (pottery), a type of pottery in Peru

title: Huaco


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Bejuco

Bejuco may refer to:
 * Guaco (also called bejuco), a climbing plant
 * Bejuco, Panama
 * Bejuco District, Costa Rica

title: Bejuco


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Mary Kay Place

Mary Kay Place (born September 23, 1947) is an American actress. She is best known for portraying Loretta Haggers on the television series Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman, a role that won her the 1977 Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Supporting Actress - Comedy Series. Her numerous film appearances include Private Benjamin (1980), The Big Chill (1983), Captain Ron (1992) and Francis Ford Coppola's 1997 drama The Rainmaker. Place also recorded three studio albums for Columbia Records, one in the Haggers persona, which included the Top Ten country music hit "Baby Boy". For her performance in Diane (2018), Place won the Los Angeles Film Critics Association Award for Best Actress and the National Society of Film Critics Award for Best Actress.

Early life
Place was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, the daughter of Gwendolyn Lucille (née Johnson) and Bradley Eugene Place. She graduated from Nathan Hale High School and the University of Tulsa, where her father was an art professor; she was a member of Kappa Alpha Theta sorority and received a speech degree.

Career
Place moved to Hollywood with aspirations of becoming an actress and writer. She was hired for The Tim Conway Comedy Hour in the 1970s as a production assistant to both Conway and producer Norman Lear. Conway gave Place her first on-camera break, while Lear saw to it that Place received her first writing credit on his subsequent All in the Family. On the episode, she and actress Patty Weaver sang "If Communism Comes Knocking on Your Door, Don't Answer It." She appeared in the third-season episode of M*A*S*H titled "Springtime", for which she also received writing credits.

Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman and musical career
Lear then cast her in the role of would-be country and western star Loretta Haggers on the satirical soap opera Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman (1976–1977). She won an Emmy Award for her work as Loretta, and was nominated in 1977 for a Grammy Award for Best Country Vocal Performance, Female for the associated music album ''Tonite! At the Capri Lounge Loretta Haggers''. Place wrote two of the songs on Tonite!: "Vitamin L" and "Baby Boy," both of which she sang on the television series as Loretta.

Both ''Tonite! At the Capri Lounge Loretta Haggers and its follow up Aimin' To Please'' featured A-list country and pop performers from the 1970s. Dolly Parton, on whom the Loretta character was loosely based, provided backing vocals as well as the song "All I Can Do" (which Parton also wrote). Emmylou Harris, Anne Murray and Nicolette Larson sang backup as well. Aimin' to Please's "Something to Brag About," a duet with Willie Nelson, earned the pair a place on the music charts in 1977.

While working on Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman, Place also wrote scripts for episodes of several TV situation comedies, including The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Phyllis and M*A*S*H, usually in collaboration with Linda Bloodworth-Thomason (who would later create Designing Women). She appeared in the M*A*S*H episode "Springtime," which she co-wrote with Bloodworth. She also made an appearance as a character named "Betty Sue" in the sitcom All in the Family in the episode "Archie Goes Too Far".

Place hosted Saturday Night Live in 1977 and was one of the few hosts who also appeared as the musical guest (with Willie Nelson on the duet "Something to Brag About").

Late 1970s through 1990s
In the 1977 musical drama New York, New York, directed by Martin Scorsese, Place sings "Blue Moon" with Robert De Niro, whose character also accompanies her on saxophone. It is included in the original motion picture soundtrack.

In the 1979 Burt Reynolds romantic comedy, Starting Over, Place plays the first woman Reynolds dates after a divorce.

In 1983, Place had a key role in the Lawrence Kasdan ensemble piece The Big Chill as Meg, a single corporate attorney who wishes to be impregnated with her first child by one of her past college friends.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, the actress appeared in a number of television films and a starring role in the 1992 Kurt Russell and Martin Short comedy Captain Ron. 1994 saw her return to television in the recurring role of Camille Cherski on My So-Called Life. In 1996, Place comically portrayed an evangelistic anti-abortion activist in Alexander Payne's debut feature film Citizen Ruth. She had a strong dramatic role as Dot Black, mother of a terminally ill young man, in Francis Ford Coppola's version of John Grisham's The Rainmaker in 1997.

Place was nominated for an Independent Spirit Award for her work in the 1996 film Manny & Lo with Scarlett Johansson and Aleksa Palladino. She plays the matronly Elaine, who would love to have a child and works in a maternity shop, but never married and is past her child-bearing years.

She directed episodes of the HBO sitcom Dream On, NBC's Friends and the series Baby Boom. She provided at least two voices for Fox's animated show King of the Hill in an episode in which Peggy Hill competes in the Mrs. Heimlich County Pageant. She voiced both a competitor and the coordinator of the pageant.

She appeared as Mrs. Betty Dustin in the made for TV drama “For my daughter’s honor”(a.k.a “Indecent Seduction”) in 1996 in which she plays a mom in her real life native Oklahoma whose daughter Amy (played by Nicholle Tom) is being sexually harassed by the school football coach. Place also appeared in Being John Malkovich as the hard-of-hearing receptionist, Floris, and in Girl, Interrupted. While not in any scenes together, this marked the third time that Mary Kay had done a film with one of her former My So-Called Life co-stars: first with Claire Danes in The Rainmaker, second with Bess Armstrong in Pecker, then with Jared Leto in Interrupted.

2000–2019
In 2000, the actress co-directed Don Henley's video for "Taking You Home". She had a small role in her second Lisa Krueger film, Committed.

She played the United States Surgeon General in a 2001 episode of NBC's The West Wing. The character returned in the 2004 season.

In the original PBS mini-series Armistead Maupin's Tales of the City, Place had a self-referential moment as a Maupin character during the Mary Hartman era in which the series is set. Laura Linney's character often watched Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman. Showtime picked up the Tales franchise, but Place was not in the second installment. She did have a role in the third mini-series, Further Tales of the City (2001), which featured her in the role of "Prue Giroux."

In 2002, Place had a sizable role in the Reese Witherspoon film Sweet Home Alabama as Witherspoon's character's mother, Pearl Smooter. That same year she was in Human Nature starring Tim Robbins and Patricia Arquette and A Woman's a Helluva Thing with Penelope Ann Miller as well as with Albert Brooks in the dark comedy My First Mister. The story focuses on a developing relationship between an isolated, rebellious 18-year-old (Leelee Sobieski) and an engaging older man (Brooks). Place played Brooks' best friend. The film marked the directorial debut of actress Christine Lahti.

Place played a Mormon mother in the film Latter Days (2003). From 2006 to 2011, she had a recurring role in HBO's Big Love, playing Adaleen Grant, the mother of the Chloë Sevigny character, Nicki. She also had a recurring role on the HBO comedy Bored to Death. Lily Tomlin and Place did the pilot and 5 episodes of 12 Miles of Bad Road from Harry Thomason and Linda Bloodworth-Thomason, who wrote television scripts with Place in the 1970s. HBO chose not to air the series, and producers were seeking other networks to air it.

In 2009, she served as the voice of Julie Powell's mother in the film Julie & Julia. In 2013, she appeared as Bryan's mother on The New Normal.

In 2015, Place guest starred on The Mentalist and Looking. She also starred in the comedy-drama film I'll See You in My Dreams directed by Brett Haley, opposite Blythe Danner, and The Breakup Girl directed by Stacy Sherman. She provided the voice of Anne Hathaway's mother in The Intern, directed by Nancy Meyers. Place also had a recurring role on Grace and Frankie opposite Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin.

In 2016, Place starred in the comedy film The Hollars directed by John Krasinski and the comedy-drama Youth in Oregon directed by Joel David Moore. Place also portrayed Maria Bamford's mother in the comedy series Lady Dynamite which was cancelled after two seasons.

In 2017, Place guest starred in an episode of the comedy series Black-ish. She also had a cameo voice appearance in Downsizing directed by Alexander Payne. Place also had a recurring role on the comedy series Imposters.

In 2018, Place starred in State Like Sleep directed by Meredith Danluck and appeared in an episode of the anthology drama The Romanoffs. That same year, she starred in the drama film Diane directed by Kent Jones, and executive produced by Martin Scorsese. The film marked Place's first lead role in a film, and was written specifically for her by Jones. The film had its world premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival on April 22, 2018. Place's performance received rave reviews from critics. The film was released on March 29, 2019, by IFC Films. Place won the Los Angeles Film Critics Association Award for Best Actress and National Society of Film Critics Award for Best Actress for her performance. Place received nominations for Gotham Independent Film Award for Best Actress and Independent Spirit Award for Best Female Lead. Place also had a recurring role on Shameless.

2020–present
In 2020, Place guest starred on the comedy-drama series AJ and the Queen, and on Fox's 9-1-1: Lone Star as Theresa Blake, the mother to Liv Tyler's character. In 2021, Place played Millie in the musical drama Music, co-written and directed by Sia. She also starred in the musical The Prom based on the Broadway musical of the same title directed by Ryan Murphy, for Netflix.

Albums
Note: Both of Place's albums just missed charting on the general pop Billboard Hot 200 chart, her 1976 bubbled under in the ten runnerup slots at #202 and the 1977 at #203.

title: Mary Kay Place


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USS Lafayette

Three ships in the United States Navy have been named USS Lafayette for Marquis de Lafayette.

 * USS Lafayette (1848), was built in 1848 as Aleck Scott, and purchased by the US Navy on 18 May 1862 and renamed Lafayette on 8 September 1862. She was decommissioned in July 1865 and sold
 * USS Lafayette (AP-53), was launched as the French-built Normandie and seized from France in 1941. She was partially destroyed by fire during conversion to a troop ship in New York. She was sold to a US scrap merchant and then struck in 1945
 * USS Lafayette (SSBN-616), was the lead ship of the Lafayette-class submarines, commissioned in 1963, and decommissioned in 1991
 * USS Lafayette (FFG-65), a planned Constellation-class frigate

title: USS Lafayette