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History of Christianity and homosexuality

Christian leaders have written about male homosexual activities since the first decades of Christianity; female homosexual behavior was almost entirely ignored. Throughout the majority of Christian history, most Christian theologians and denominations have considered homosexual behavior as immoral or sinful.

However, since the second half of the 20th century some prominent Christian theologians and religious groups have espoused a wide variety of beliefs and practices towards homosexuals, including the establishment of various "open and accepting" Christian churches and denominations that actively support LGBT members.

Etymology
The first instance of the English word "homosexuals" used in a biblical translation was in the RSV New Testament published from 1946 until 1970, which simultaneously removed most "fornication" admonitions found in the prior ASV (1901) and KJV (1611) Bibles. Historically, the Vulgate contains the Latin stem "fornicat" within 92 verses representing sixteen centuries of Christian tradition on literally wording sexual admonishments, while verses now rebuking homosexuals were described in the Vulgate equivalent to "male-prostitute male-concubines". RSV set a modern trend in literally rebuking "homosexuals".

Several post-World War II translations of the Bible now have one to four verses rebuking homosexuals while replacing all mention of fornicators with "the immoral" or "sexual immoral" and leaving ambiguous homosexual or heterosexual immorality.

Early Christianity
The history of Christianity and homosexuality has been much debated. The Hebrew Bible and its traditional interpretations in Judaism and Christianity have historically affirmed and endorsed a patriarchal and heteronormative approach towards human sexuality, favouring exclusively penetrative vaginal intercourse between men and women within the boundaries of marriage over all other forms of human sexual activity,  including autoeroticism, masturbation, oral sex, non-penetrative and non-heterosexual sexual intercourse (all of which have been labeled as "sodomy" by some at various times), believing and teaching that such behaviors are forbidden because they are considered sinful,  and further compared to or derived from the behavior of the alleged residents of Sodom and Gomorrah. However, the status of LGBT people in early Christianity is debated. Some maintain that the early Christian churches deplored transgender people and same-sex relationships, while others maintain that they accepted them on the level of their heterosexual counterparts. These disagreements concern, in some cases, the translations of certain terms, or the meaning and context of some biblical passages.

Before the rise of Christianity, certain sexual practices that are today considered "homosexual" had existed among certain groups, with some degree of social acceptance in ancient Rome and ancient Greece (e.g. the pederastic relationship of an adult Greek male with a Greek youth, or of a Roman citizen with a slave). Both societies viewed anal sex as an act of dominance by the active (penetrating) partner over the passive (penetrated) partner, representing no distinction from how vaginal sex was viewed. It was considered a sign of weakness and low social status (such as slavery or infamia) for a man to assume the passive role. There was no such stigma against a man who assumed the active role. Derrick Sherwin Bailey and Sarah Ruden both caution that it is anachronistic to project modern understandings of homosexuality onto ancient writings.

The Judaic prohibitions found in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 address the issue of sex between two men. The latter verse (20:13) says: "And if a man also lies with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

In his fourth homily on Romans, John Chrysostom argued in the fourth century that homosexual acts are worse than murder and so degrading that they constitute a kind of punishment in itself, and that enjoyment of such acts makes them worse, "for suppose I were to see a person running naked, with his body all besmeared with mire, and yet not covering himself, but exulting in it, I should not rejoice with him, but should rather bewail that he did not even perceive that he was doing shamefully." He also said: "But nothing can there be more worthless than a man who has pandered himself. For not the soul only, but the body also of one who hath been so treated, is disgraced, and deserves to be driven out everywhere."

The writings of the early church contain strong condemnations of same-sex acts. Tertullian wrote, "When Paul asserts that males and females changed among themselves the natural use of the creature in that which is unnatural, he validates the natural way". Ambrosiaster wrote, "Paul tells us that these things came about, that a woman should lust after another woman, because God was angry at the human race because of its idolatry. Those who interpret this differently do not understand the force of the argument. For what is it to change the use of nature into a use which is contrary to nature, if not to take away the former and adopt the latter, so that the same part of the body should be used by each of the sexes in a way for which it was not intended?... It is clear that, because they changed the truth of God into a lie, they changed the natural use (of sexuality) into that use by which they were dishonored and condemned". John Chrysostom wrote, "No one can say that it was by being prevented from legitimate intercourse that they came to this pass or that it was from having no means to fulfill their desire that they were driven to this monstrous insanity... What is contrary to nature has something irritating and displeasing in it, so that they could not even claim to be getting pleasure out of it. For genuine pleasure comes from following what is according to nature. But when God abandons a person to his own devices, then everything is turned upside down." Cyprian wrote, "If you were able... to direct your eyes into secret places, to unfasten the locked doors of sleeping chambers and to open these hidden recesses to the perception of sight, you would behold that being carried on by the unchaste which a chaste countenance could not behold. You would see that it is in an indignity even to see... Men with frenzied lusts rush against men. Things are done which cannot even give pleasure to those who do them".

John Boswell, in his book published in 1994, contends that adelphopoiesis, a Christian rite for uniting two persons of the same sex as "spiritual brothers/sisters", amounted to an approved outlet for romantic and indeed sexual love between couples of the same sex. Boswell also drew attention to Saints Sergius and Bacchus, whose icon depicts the two standing together with Jesus between or behind them, a position he identifies with a pronubus or "best man". Critics of Boswell's views have argued that the union created was more like blood brotherhood; and that this icon is a typical example of an icon depicting two saints who were martyred together, with the usual image of Christ that appears on many religious icons, and therefore that there is no indication that it depicts a "wedding". But Sergius and Bacchus were both referred to as erastai in ancient Greek manuscripts, the same word used to describe lovers.

In her 2010 book Paul Among the People, Sarah Ruden rejects Boswell's interpretation but also argues that Paul the Apostle's writings on homosexuality (such as Romans 1: 26–27) cannot be interpreted as a condemnation of homosexuality as it is understood in modern times. Writing about the context of Greco-Roman culture, she writes: "There were no gay households; there were in fact no gay institutions or gay culture at all." Citing how society viewed the active and passive roles separately and viewed sex as an act of domination, she concludes that Paul was opposing sexual relations that were, at best, unequal. At worst, they were tantamount by modern standards to male rape and child sexual abuse.

In 314, the 16th Canon of the Council of Ancyra prescribed a penance of at least twenty years' duration for those "who have done the irrational" (alogeuesthai). At the time this was written, it referred to bestiality, not homosexuality. However, later Latin translations translated it to include both.

In 342, Roman emperors Constantius II and Constans decreed the death penalty for any male who "marries [a man] as a woman... [a situation in which] gender has lost its place". In 390, emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius denounced males "acting the part of a woman", condemning those who were guilty of such acts to be publicly burned.

The Middle Ages
Adelphopoiesis continued to be practiced throughout the Middle Ages, especially in the Greek-speaking Christian world. According to several biographies dated to within a century of his life, Basil I may have been a participant in such a same-sex union prior to his rise to power, but the evidence is disputed. The exact nature of such same-sex unions has been debated by scholars, as although they share parallels to the contemporary Christian understanding of heterosexual marriage, homosexuality was not considered socially acceptable. Despite this, they continued to be performed throughout the Middle Ages, often in churches.

John Boswell, in his essay The Church and the Homosexual, attributes Christianity's denunciations of "homosexuality" to an alleged rising intolerance in Europe throughout the 12th century, which he claims was also reflected in other ways. His premise is that when sodomy was not being explicitly and "officially" denounced, it was therefore being "tolerated". Historian R. W. Southern disagreed with Boswell's claims and wrote in 1990 that "the only relevant generalization which emerges from the penitential codes down to the eleventh century is that sodomy was treated on about the same level as copulation with animals." Southern further notes that "Boswell thinks that the omission of sodomy from the stringent new code of clerical celibacy issued by the Roman Council of 1059 implies a degree of tolerance. Countering this is the argument that the Council of 1059 had more urgent business on hand; and in any case, sodomy had been condemned by Leo IX at Rheims in 1049." Similarly, Pierre Payer asserted in 1984 that Boswell's thesis (as outlined in his Christianity, Homosexuality and Social Tolerance) ignores an alleged wealth of condemnations found in the penitential literature prior to the 12th century. More recently, historian Allan Tulchin wrote in 2007 in the Journal of Modern History that, "It is impossible to prove either way and probably also somewhat irrelevant to understanding their way of thinking. They loved each other, and the community accepted that."

Peter Damian wrote the Liber Gomorrhianus, an extended attack on both homosexuality and masturbation. He portrayed homosexuality as a counter-rational force undermining morality, religion, and society itself, and in need of strong suppression lest it spread even and especially among clergy. Damian reports that even Otto III was intimate with many men (sharing the bed and bath).

Hildegard of Bingen reported seeing visions and recorded them in Scivias (short for Scito vias Domini, "Know the Ways of the Lord"). In Book II Vision Six, she quotes God as condemning same-sex intercourse, including lesbianism; "a woman who takes up devilish ways and plays a male role in coupling with another woman is most vile in My sight, and so is she who subjects herself to such a one in this evil deed". Her younger contemporary Alain de Lille personified the theme of sexual sin in opposition to nature in The Complaint of Nature by having Nature herself denounce sexual immorality and especially homosexuality as rebellion against her direction, terming it confusion between masculine and feminine and between subject and object. The Complaint also includes a striking description of the neglect of womanhood:

"Though all the beauty of man humbles itself before the fairness of woman, being always inferior to her glory; though the face of the daughter of Tyndaris is brought into being and the comeliness of Adonis and Narcissus, conquered, adores her; for all this she is scorned, although she speaks as beauty itself, though her godlike grace affirms her to be a goddess, though for her the thunderbolt would fail in the hand of Jove, and every sinew of Apollo would pause and lie inactive, though for her the free man would become a slave, and Hippolytus, to enjoy her love, would sell his very chastity. Why do so many kisses lie untouched on maiden lips, and no one wish to gain a profit from them?"

In the 13th century, Thomas Aquinas argued that not all things to which a person might be inclined are "natural" in the morally relevant sense; rather, only the inclination to the full and proper expression of the human nature, and inclinations which align with that inclination, are natural. Contrary inclinations are perversions of the natural in the sense that they do seek a good, but in a way destructive of good. This view points from the natural to the Divine, because (following Aristotle) he said all people seek happiness; but according to Aquinas, happiness can only finally be attained through beatific vision. Therefore, all sins are also against the natural law. But the natural law of many aspects of life is knowable apart from special revelation by examining the forms and purposes of those aspects. It is in this sense that Aquinas considered homosexuality unnatural, since it involves a kind of partner other than the kind to which the purpose of sexuality points. He considered it comparable to heterosexual sex for pleasure (rather than reproduction).

The tone of the denunciations often indicate a more than theoretical concern. Archbishop Ralph of Tours had his lover John installed as Bishop of Orléans with agreement of both the King of France and Pope Urban II. In 1395 there was a transvestite homosexual prostitute arrested in London with some records surviving, and the Twelve Conclusions of the Lollards included the denunciation of priestly celibacy as a cause of sodomy.

Due to a lack of evidence, it is impossible to know the specifics surrounding the societal understanding of female homosexuality. The primary source of thought on lesbianism appears to have been Thomas Aquinas, who considered homosexual acts between women to be sins against nature, much the same as male homosexuality. Aside from Aquinas, mentions of homosexuality between women are very rare. Some scholars interpret this as a sign that lesbianism may have been almost intentionally ignored; the popular belief at the time seemed to be that women were not capable of desiring another woman more than a man, and that sex between a man and a woman was intrinsically superior to sex between two women, as women could not make up for the lack of a phallus.

Direct references to sodomy between women or to the persecution of homosexual women were rare, but there were some concerns regarding the behavior of nuns. The councils of Paris and Rouen, for example, disallowed nuns from sharing a bed or forming particularly close bonds of friendship with each other. Although these decisions do not explicitly mention concerns of same-sex attraction between nuns, Judith C. Brown argues in Immodest Acts: The Life of a Lesbian Nun in Renaissance Italy that they imply an awareness of potential homoeroticism.

There were, however, some writers who recommended penalties for homosexual acts between women. In most cases, these penalties tended to be more lenient than those levied against men involved in homosexuality. Theodore of Tarsus, for example, recommended three years penance for women who were guilty of homosexuality, as opposed to 10 years for men. This leniency was not true in every case, however. As the 16th century began, it became more common for lesbian acts to be prosecuted on the same level as male homosexuality, often punished with death.

The Reformation and Counter-Reformation
Leading up to the Reformation, Western European views on homosexuality became increasingly hostile; the exact reason for this change is unclear. Martin Luther's view of homosexuality is recorded in Plass's What Luther Says:

"The vice of the Sodomites is an unparalleled enormity. It departs from the natural passion and desire, planted into nature by God, according to which the male has a passionate desire for the female. Sodomy craves what is entirely contrary to nature. Whence comes this perversion? Without a doubt it comes from the devil. After a man has once turned aside from the fear of God, the devil puts such great pressure upon his nature that he extinguishes the fire of natural desire and stirs up another, which is contrary to nature."This view of sodomy as the greatest sin one could commit became common throughout the Christian world. Sodomy was increasingly referred to as "the sin that cannot be named," as the subject became too taboo to be specifically mentioned. Part of the revulsion associated with homosexual acts could be related to the fact that, in many cultures, sodomy was seen as simply an action which any man may commit if he allowed himself to indulge his vices. In Elizabethan England, for example, defendants accused of sodomy often claimed drunkenness as a defense of their actions, a common defense for a wide variety of crimes.

As sodomy became more of a concern, it began to be punished harshly. When uncovered, cases of sodomy were investigated thoroughly, and were often punished with death or banishment. In some Swiss cases, there was communication between cities to alert each other to locations of homosexual activities. In others, arrest warrants were distributed in order to catch suspects. This communication continued even after the Reformation, as concerns regarding homosexuality were prominent among both Catholic and Protestant Christians.

Same-sex relationships between men occurred between a wide variety of partners. Some were adolescent, other cases involved both partners belonging to a lower social class, and others were between one higher class partner and one of a slightly lower social standing. The occurrences which included class-disparity were often accompanied by opportunities for the partner with a lower social standing, including gifts, monetary compensation, or favors from the upper-class partner. Werner Steiner, a major figure early in the Reformation who was convicted of sodomy near the end of his life, was found to have provided monetary gifts and clothing to his lower-class partner. He was sentenced to house arrest, where he stayed for the remainder of his life.

In many cases, sodomy was seen as a sin which represented treason against God, as same-sex activities were believed to oppose the natural order of the world. Because of this, accusations of sodomy were frequently used as tools to defame or delegitimize political opponents. As sodomy was viewed as a lustful sin to which anybody might fall prey, nobody was safe from accusations of sodomy, and because of the seriousness of such accusations, they were an incredibly powerful weapon to use against political opposition.

Premodern female homoeroticism
Benedetta Carlini (1590–1661) was one of the only women whose homosexual activities were documented. Benedetta was a nun, later an abbess, in Pescia, Italy, where she experienced many visions which she believed to be messages from God. They culminated in a vision which directed her to decorate the church in preparation for a marriage ceremony, in which Benedetta would be married to Christ. Following this event, there was an investigation which determined her visions to be true. A second investigation was later conducted which determined her visions to be false and uncovered a sexual relationship between Benedetta and another nun, Bartolomea. The relationship was revealed during interviews between Bartolomea and the investigators, in which she gave detailed descriptions of their encounters, which took place over several years. She described how Benedetta would be possessed by an angel during the encounters, and claimed to have been forced to participate. Benedetta was imprisoned in the convent for 35 years until she died, while Bartolomea appears to have been punished to a much lesser degree.

In general, however, same-sex relationships between women have not been as well-documented as male homosexuality. There are very few existing references to the prosecution of women for homosexuality, as opposed to the prevalence of prosecutions for male homosexuality. Several theologians wrote on the topic of homosexual activity between women. The sources tend to agree that female homosexual acts constitute sins, but disagree on specific points, resulting in a wide variety of beliefs. These ranged from the classification of female homosexuality as a sin against nature — "in which the sexual act was directed solely at pleasure and did not permit procreation" — to the complete opposite, classifying them as fornication, or sins of lust that were not unnatural.

Although same-sex attraction and relationships did occur, the term lesbian was not in use until the 20th century, and earlier discussions of same-sex attraction between women approached the topic from a "radically different" framework than in the modern era. In some areas, such as France, women were punished under sodomy, while in others, such as England, they were not. There was also further debate about what constituted sodomy between women, such as medical texts which posited that only women with particularly large clitorises could commit sodomy, in order to make up for the lack of a male participant. The most common views tended to constitute the idea that women's same-sex relations were a problem specifically when it defied gender roles, allowing a woman to assume the role of a man. The existence of independent lesbian desire which is commonly accepted in the modern era was not possible to understand in this framework.

The European view of sex could be described as phallocentric, as the male sex organ was considered to be central to the act of sex. From this perspective, sexual acts between women only existed to substitute for a lack of availability of sexual relationships with men. Pre-modern European society tended to have the view that women were more susceptible to promiscuity than men, as they were considered to be more lustful than men. Accusations of witchcraft, which often included allegations of seduction by the devil, sometimes to the point of intercourse, were much more common than accusations of sodomy between women.

Diverging opinions in modern era
Historically, Christian churches have regarded homosexual sex as sinful, based on the Catholic understanding of the natural law and traditional interpretations of certain passages in the Bible. This position is today affirmed by groups representing most Christians, including the Catholic Church (1.1 billion members), Orthodox Church (250 million members), and some Protestant denominations, especially most Pentecostal churches, Evangelical churches such as the Southern Baptist Convention (16.3 million members) and the United Methodist Church (12 million members). In November 2022 the LDS Church (nearly 17 million members) came out in support of the U.S. government protecting same-sex marriage. Although these groups of Christian denominational churches regard homosexuality as sin, and not to be embraced, they do declare that it is their duty to love the sinner but hate the sin. They will therefore receive a homosexual person in their congregation not for the purpose of being inclusive of that person's lifestyle but are of the belief that God can change that person's heart and life and take away his homosexual sins like any other sin through the shed blood of Jesus Christ as stated in the New Testament book 1John 1:7. So, because of their belief that homosexuality is a condition of the heart and not that the person is born that way, they believe that homosexuals can be turned straight if they fully turn their heart to Christ. The message towards homosexuals by one large evangelical church located West South-Central region of America is thus, "THE BATTLE CRY has been sounded, the fight has been started, and the stones have been thrown. Indeed, the nation is once again divided, and the war for the soul of America has begun! So, how should a Christian fight? That fight should certainly not be with hate because it is not the sinner whom God hates; rather, it is his sin. It is homosexuality that we are against, not the homosexual."

However, a minority interpret biblical passages differently and argue that homosexuality can be seen as morally acceptable. This approach has been taken by several denominations in North America, notably the United Church of Canada (2.8 million members), the United Church of Christ (1.1 million members), the Moravian Church (825,000 members), the Anglican Episcopal church (1.8 million members), the Anglican Church of Canada (800,000 members), the Liberal Catholic Church, Friends General Conference, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) (1.9 million members), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (3.9 million members) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. Relatively many denominations had taken this approach in Europe including united, reformed and Lutheran churches: the Evangelical Church in Germany (24.5 million members), Church of Sweden (6.6 million members), Church of Norway, Church of Denmark, the Icelandic Church, Protestant Church of the Netherlands (3.9 million members), Church of Iceland, United Protestant Church in Belgium, United Protestant Church of France, Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches, Methodist Church of Great Britain (330,000 members), Church of Scotland and United Methodist Church

The Metropolitan Community Church was founded in 1968 serve the Christian LGBT community. Smaller LGBT-friendly Christian denominations have also been founded, such as the Ecumenical Catholic Church and several independent Catholic Churches.

Individual Christians maintain a variety of beliefs on this subject that may or may not correspond to their official church doctrines. Some mainline Protestant denominations in the United States have also removed language in their bylaws which suggest that homosexuality is a sinful state of being. The Book of Order used by the PCUSA reflects this change. Similar modifications in position can also be seen in the Lutheran ELCA and Disciples of Christ. Although acceptance of sexually active LGBT laity has increased in terms of actual practice and in terms of church law, some of these denominations continue to limit leadership and clergy roles for LGBT persons. A number of denominations, like the aforementioned United Methodists, remain divided over the issues relating to homosexuality, with a large number of members pushing for changes in the church's Book of Discipline to allow for full inclusion of LGBT persons in the life of the church.

In 1989, The Evangelical Network was formed with LGBT Evangelical Christians. It is a network of churches, ministries and Christian workers.


text: User talk:64.252.0.2

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

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Drayton Valley

Drayton Valley is a town in central Alberta, Canada. It is located on Highway 22 (Cowboy Trail), approximately 133 km southwest of Edmonton. It is surrounded by Brazeau County, known for its vast oil fields. The town is located between the North Saskatchewan River and the Pembina River.

The town was named after Drayton, Hampshire, the birthplace of the wife of one of the Alberta town's postmasters.

History
Prior to the 1953 oil boom, the community of Drayton Valley was sparsely populated. The main economic activities were farming and logging. Drayton Valley was incorporated as a village in 1956 and officially became a town in 1957. In 1955 a ferry was built to cross the North Saskatchewan River. The original bridge that replaced the ferry was eventually replaced by a new bridge in 2014.

Demographics
In the 2021 Census of Population conducted by Statistics Canada, the Town of Drayton Valley had a population of 7,291 living in 2,897 of its 3,250 total private dwellings, a change of NaN% from its 2016 population of 7,235. With a land area of 30.9 km2, it had a population density of in 2021.

In the 2016 Census of Population conducted by Statistics Canada, the Town of Drayton Valley recorded a population of 7,235 living in 2,782 of its 3,116 total private dwellings, a NaN% change from its 2011 population of 7,118. With a land area of 30.72 km2, it had a population density of in 2016.

Economy
Oil and gas is the primary driver of Drayton Valley's economy. Agriculture and forestry also play roles in the local economy. A sawmill is located in the town.

Attractions
Drayton Valley's Omniplex is a community sports centre that hosts ice hockey, ringette, curling, soccer, baseball and rodeo. The town also has a public swimming pool, a ski hill, a bowling alley, and the Drayton Valley Golf and Country Club.

Sports
Drayton Valley is the home of the Drayton Valley Thunder of the Alberta Junior Hockey League. Drayton Valley is also home to the annual DV100 bicycle race.

Education
Drayton Valley has six public schools, two Catholic schools, and one outreach school. The public schools and outreach school are operated by the Wild Rose School Division while the Catholic schools are operated by the St. Thomas Aquinas Catholic School Division.

 * Wild Rose School Division
 * Aurora Elementary School
 * Drayton Christian School
 * Evergreen Elementary School
 * Frank Maddock High School
 * Frank Maddock Outreach School
 * H.W. Pickup Junior High School

 * St. Thomas Aquinas Catholic School Division
 * St. Anthony School
 * Holy Trinity Academy

Media
Drayton Valley is served by two weekly newspapers, the Drayton Valley Western Review and the Drayton Valley and District Free Press and one radio station, CIBW-FM, mainly playing country music. A Christian radio station, CIDV-FM, was launched in 2009.

Notable people

 * Diana Janet McQueen, Canadian politician, Progressive Conservative MLA (2008-2015)
 * Dave Hakstol, NHL Head Coach for the Seattle Kraken

title: Drayton Valley


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Talk:Customs and etiquette in Hawaii

I removed the bit about flower motifs in corporate logos and advertising. That's a FACT, but it's not a custom. Surely there's someplace else for that fact? Zora 07:44, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Before yall start lashing out against me, let me say that I am only DIRECTLY quoting Zora. She does not believe in such things as "Hawaiian culture" or "Korean Culture", both mentioned on this page. And since she does not recognize any such thing as Persian culture or Indian Culture, then I think consistency should be practiced here, and I think it's not a bad idea to paste the POV tag on all pages listed under here as well. And especially here. But then again, I dont want to start fights. Theyre very unproductive. Yet I know Zora will persist in attacking the very phrase "Persian culture" to promote her hatred against people she does not like. Peace to you all.--Zereshk 06:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Narrowness
This is an odd list and needs work. Almost every item listed here as "offensive" is subject to vigorous debate among the residents of Hawai'i. Not to take the side of the haole, but "don't be offended if someone calls you a haole?" Even though Portuegese people SHOULD be offended? Because haoles don't have local values? I ain't no haole, but come on...that reads as a pretty strong bias against haoles, as does the entire "visitors from the Mainland" section. What, visitors from England stay different?

In addition, it feels more like a list of political prescriptions than a list of local customs and etiquette.

My sense is that someone wrote this off the cuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.235.217.208 (talk) 09:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree. Is it really necessary to point out that one should not litter, ask if American money is accepted, or assume that everyone wears grass skirts and lives in huts ? Come on, who is this aimed at ??76.113.104.58 (talk) 03:24, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I also agree very narrow, working on a research project and I'm astounded that not a single thing is cited here. Also, some things strike me as very broad - Taking off your shoes inside happens in many cultures, is this really Hawaiian etiquette vs just etiquette? Are gratuities a part of Hawaiian customs and etiquette? or just part of American culture and etiquette? This article seems to be written from the viewpoint of someone who wants to educate visitors about good manners when they visit Hawaii. Kactapuss (talk) 21:57, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Malama 'aina
Anon, it's not really a good idea to assert as custom that which you wish to be custom. People talk about malama 'aina, but do they do it? I don't think so. There's too much dumping, abandoned cars, garbage on roads, etc. for this to be true. Right out in front of my condo is a little patch of grass under a tree, between the sidewalk and the street. Or it used to be grass, before the neighborhood decided that this was a dump site. Now I can't turn into my driveway without seeing abandoned refrigerators, mattresses, furniture. There is too much to fit on the dirt patch that used to be grass, so they dump it on the sidewalk too. If it's removed, people just think that it means that any garbage they put there WILL be removed -- so they dump more.

Rather than revert you, I hope that you'll remove your public-spirited but inaccurate contribution yourself. Zora 07:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC) (grumpy Makiki resident)

Anon, please don't add dubious material
Anon, you're adding stuff that is dubious or just plain wrong. The bit re lava rock is a modern attempt by Big Island park rangers to get people to stop taking rocks; there is no Native Hawaiian belief that taking rocks is wrong. Native Hawaiians used them, to make axes and such. Pork over the Pali -- that's a superstition held by some people, but it's not universal and it's not a custom. Not put your back to the sea? I've never HEARD that and I've lived here thirty years. Never seen anyone observe it, either.

I also removed the bit re malama 'aina, since you didn't.

The problem is that this article doesn't cite any references, which is a no-no by Wikipedia standards. We aren't supposed to state personal beliefs as facts; we're supposed to document them. This article has puttered along for years without being criticized for being personal opinion, or original research, because contributors managed to stick with things that were so generally believed, or observed, that no one complained. Now you are adding stuff that really is dubious.

I'm grotesquely over-committed on many fronts, but I'll see if I can find some written references on island customs. Clearly they're needed. Zora 19:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Trying to Make a Good Faith Effort Here
I'm new to Wikipedia and on chance stumbled across this section and thought it was incomplete. I have made a good faith effort to add elements that I truly believe are beliefs and customs in Hawaii. For example, I added a point about the importance of caring for and respecting the land and ocean, but this was deemed "dubious" and promptly deleted, as noted above. While it is true that this is a belief of mine, I know it is a belief held by many in Hawaii. The protection of the environment, while violated by some, partially underlies the reason why there are no billboards allowed on the island. I added a point about how much value native Hawaiian speakers place on their language and how it is not proper etiquette to misuse the language, but this too was deleted as "dubious." But from my experience, which is significant, it is rude to say things like "Hey look, I got lei'd last night." I also added a point and know it is a belief (obviously not known or practiced by all) to not turn your back to the ocean. There was a controversy when the Duke Kahanamoku statue was placed at Kuhio Beach for this very reason. My intent here is not to get into an argument with anyone, but simply to highlight what I saw as missing points. There is more complexity to the culture here than simply wearing a lei or going to baby luaus. Maybe this isn't the right section for me because I'm really interested in the core beliefs behind the behaviors. I agree that it might be better to start referencing these items, so there is less controversy over what is and what is not a custom or practice. Otherwise, you simply have one person disagreeing with another and that's not where I wanted to go with this. Karma17 06:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Oh, fantastic, you've taken a username! We're talking! I haven't scared you off!

 * I knew it was a good faith effort but ... I think customs are defined as behaviors that are close to universally observed. Everyone else will look stink at you if you break them. A lot of the things you were adding were things that I believe too, but I'm all too aware that public pious sentiments don't translate into what people actually do. Wearing your shoes in the house is different. That's the sort of thing that really really upsets people. It's like spitting into the soup.

 * Doesn't it seem to you that the universal customs are the ones that are easy to keep? There's an entirely different category of things that you believe you ought to do, but don't, because they're difficult. Shoes, eays, saving for your old age, hard. Buying leis, easy, meticulously recycling all your litter and garbage, hard. People throw junk because they don't want to spend the effort (or sometimes the money) to do it right. Then they'll say that they believe in malama 'aina. I

 * I'm glad that you agree that we could solve problems with citations. I'm not quite sure where to start, but let's see if we can get cites for everything that's there now -- that will probably lead us to other stuff that we can cite.

 * Oh, and as to misusing the language -- "I got lei'd" is vulgar. But my kumu 'olelo Hawai'i is happy to use pidgin and all-mix-up Hawaiian. He'll use words like "hulimakaflip." People have been misusing Hawaiian for 200 years, which is why we have pidgin. It's important to know what is correct Hawaiian and what is pidgin, but that doesn't mean you can't be creative. Zora 07:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a very interesting point about easiness. If that's one of the conditions, then I can see more of where you are coming from. And I agree that talk is cheap. Maybe one day the harder beliefs will become more universal. Perhaps through education? I know Hawaii is a diverse place and more people are moving here every day. One of the reasons I moved here was to get away from the mainland mentality, so I hate to see Hawaii lose what makes it a special place. Remember I'm new here, so I'm not sure where to start. Should I let you know what references I find and talk about them here before posting? Let me know. Karma17 08:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Billboards were not banned because they were bad for the environment, they (along with all other forms of major public advertising) were banned because they were deemed to be unsightly and detracting from the natural (or artificial) view of the area. In a state that relies so heavily on tourism, unobstructed views are critical, and the law also bans smaller advertisements like signs posted by the road. It has no environmental basis aside from view, since mounting a billboard on the side of a preexisting building doesn't have any environmental impact. The issue here (like in so many other articles) is sifting out that which can be cited and that which is purely original research based on the editor's experience. I would recommend taking a trip to the library (they're there for a reason aside from renewing your passport!) and finding books on Hawaiian culture that can be used as references. I would consider doing it myself but I'm unfortunately away at the moment. Citations on Wikipedia are not "nice-to-haves" or a matter of convenience, but are necessities. AfD's have been won and lost based on the available citations, and you would need a lot of them to establish the notability needed to keep this article. the_one092001 (talk) 21:06, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

This page is full of biased language and needs to be corrected.
The section about "haole" needs to be corrected and said in a more politically correct way. The entire section sounds as if to chastise people who are "white" (European descent) when they are the ones being called "haole". As with anything, and depending on the context, "haole" is also used as a pejorative and can be racist as well. (e.g., "beat up a haole day"). So to tell "white" people not to be offended in this manner is actually rude. The better thing to do is to explain the history of the term "haole" and then describe a proper and friendly context for the term. The part about "stupid haole" etc. comes off as amateur and unfriendly. Whoever created that section obviously has a political axe to grind and it does not serve the purpose of the wiki page; to inform people of customs, especially visitors.

I made my edits in good faith and as Hawaiian I embarrassed by some of the language and tone of this page.

title: Talk:Customs and etiquette in Hawaii


text:
Mujaddid

A mujaddid (مجدد), is an Islamic term for one who brings "renewal" (تجديد) to the religion. According to the popular Muslim tradition, it refers to a person who appears at the turn of every century of the Islamic calendar to revitalize Islam, cleansing it of extraneous elements and restoring it to its pristine purity. In contemporary times, a mujaddid is looked upon as the greatest Muslim of a century.

The concept is based on a hadith (a saying of Islamic prophet Muhammad), recorded by Abu Dawood, narrated by Abu Hurairah who mentioned that Muhammad said:

"Allah will raise for this community at the end of every 100 years the one who will renovate its religion for it."

Ikhtilaf (disagreements) exist among different hadith viewers. Scholars such as Al-Dhahabi and Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani have interpreted that the term mujaddid can also be understood as plural, thus referring to a group of people.

Mujaddids can include prominent scholars, pious rulers and military commanders.

List of Sunni claimants and potential mujaddids
While there is no formal mechanism for designating a mujaddid in Sunni Islam, there is often a popular consensus. The Shia and Ahmadiyya have their own list of mujaddids.

First century (after the prophetic period) (August 3, 718)

 * Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz (682–720)

Second century (August 10, 815)

 * Muhammad ibn Idris ash-Shafi`i (767–820)
 * Ahmad ibn Hanbal (780–855)

Third century (August 17, 912)

 * Muhammad al-Bukhari (810–870)
 * Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari (874–936)

Fourth Century (August 24, 1009)

 * Hakim al-Nishaburi (933–1012)
 * Abu Bakr Al-Baqillani (950–1013)

Fifth century (September 1, 1106)

 * Ibn Hazm (994–1064)
 * Abu Hamid al-Ghazali (1058–1111)
 * Abdul Qadir Jilani (1078–1166)

Sixth century (September 9, 1203)

 * Salauddin Ayyubi (1137–1193)
 * Ibn Qudamah (1147–1223)
 * Muhammad bin Bakhtiyar Khalji (1148–1206)
 * Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (1149–1210)
 * Abu al-Qasim al-Rafi'i (1160-1226)

Seventh century (September 15, 1300)

 * Ibn Daqiq al-'Id (1228–1302)
 * Ibn Taymiyyah (1263–1328)
 * Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya (1292–1350)

Eighth century (September 23, 1397)

 * Siraj al-Din al-Bulqini (1324–1403)
 * Tamerlane (Timur) (1336–1405)
 * Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (1372–1448)

Ninth century (October 1, 1494)

 * Shah Rukh (1377–1447)
 * Mehmet II (1432–1481)
 * Zakariyya al-Ansari (1420-1520)
 * Jalaludin Al-Suyuti (1445–1505)

Tenth century (October 19, 1591)

 * Selim I (1470–1520)
 * Suleiman the Magnificent (1494–1566)
 * Shams al-Din al-Ramli (1513-1596)
 * Ahmad Sirhindi (1564–1624)

Eleventh century (October 26, 1688)

 * Khayr al-Din al-Ramli (1585–1671)
 * Mahiuddin Aurangzeb Alamgir (1618–1707)
 * Abdullah ibn Alawi al-Haddad (1634–1720)

Twelfth century (November 4, 1785)

 * Shah Waliullah Dehlawi (1703–1762)
 * Murtaḍá al-Zabīdī (1732–1790)
 * Shah Abdul Aziz Delhwi (1745–1823)
 * Tipu Sultan (1750–1799)
 * Usman Dan Fodio (1754–1817)
 * Syed Ahmad Barelvi (1786–1831)
 * Fazl-e-Haq Khairabadi (1796–1861)

Thirteenth century (November 14, 1882)

 * Muhammad Abduh (1849–1905)
 * Mahmud Hasan Deobandi (1851–1920)
 * Ahmad Raza Khan (1856–1925)
 * Amadou Bamba (1853–1927)

Fourteenth century (November 21, 1979)

 * Ashraf Ali Thanwi (1863–1943)
 * Said Nursî (1878–1960)
 * Abdul-Rahman al-Sa'di (1889–1957)
 * Abul A'la Maududi (1903–1979)
 * Murabit al-Hajj (1913 - 2018)
 * Muhammad 'Alawi al-Maliki (1944–2004)

Claimants in other traditions

 * Mulla Sadra Shirazi (1571–1640)
 * Syed Ahmad Khan (1817–1898)
 * Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908)

title: Mujaddid


text:
List of stations in London fare zone 6

Fare zone 6 is an outer zone of Transport for London's zonal fare system used for calculating the price of tickets for travel on the London Underground, London Overground, Docklands Light Railway, National Rail services (since 2007), and the Elizabeth line within Greater London. The zone was created in January 1991; previously it had formed part of zone 5 since May 1983. It extends from approximately 12-16 mi from Piccadilly Circus.

List of stations
The following stations are within zone 6:

Changes

 * January 1991: zone 6 created from part of zone 5
 * January 1997: Debden, Theydon Bois and Epping from outside the zones to zone 6 and Moor Park from zone A to zone 6/A boundary
 * January 2005: Cheam and Belmont from zone 6 to zone 5
 * January 2006: Whyteleafe, Whyteleafe South, Caterham, Banstead, Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner, Tadworth, Kingswood, Chipstead and Upper Warlingham from outside the zones to zone 6
 * January 2007: Stoneleigh from zone 6 to zone 5 and Ewell East & Ewell West from outside the zones to zone 6

title: List of stations in London fare zone 6


text:
Victorian Alps

The Victorian Alps, also known locally as the High Country, is a large mountain system in the southeastern Australian state of Victoria. Occupying the majority of eastern Victoria, it is the southwestern half of the Australian Alps (the other half being the Snowy Mountains), the tallest portion of the Great Dividing Range. The Yarra and Dandenong Ranges, both sources of rivers and drinking waters for Melbourne (Victoria's capital, largest city and home to three quarters of the state's population), are branches of the Victorian Alps.

The promise of gold in the mid-1800s, during the Victorian Gold rush led to the European settlement of the area. The region's rich natural resources brought a second wave of agricultural settlers; the foothills around the Victorian Alps today has a large agrarian sector, with significant cattle stations being sold recently for over thirty million dollars. The Victorian Alps is also the source of many of Victoria's water ways, including Murray and Yarra Rivers and the Gippsland Lakes. The valleys beneath the high plains are surrounded by wineries and orchards because of this abundance water. The region is also home to Victoria's largest national park, the Alpine National Park, which covers over 646000 hectare. The establishment of the Alpine National Park has meant that economic activities such as mining, logging and agriculture are limited, to preserve the natural ecosystem for visitors. Tourism within the region centres around snow sports in winter and various outdoor activities during the summer months.

The Australian Alps is an Interim Biogeographic Regionalisation for Australia sub-bioregion of approximately 519866 ha, and an administrative sub-region of Victoria bordering the Gippsland and Hume regions.

Indigenous heritage
The Victorian Alps were a significant meeting place for multiple Indigenous tribes from all-over South-east Australia. Seasonally Indigenous peoples from many tribes would meet at the highest peaks for trade, settling of disputes, marriage and initiation ceremonies. Whilst on the high plains the tribes would feast upon the Bogong moth, a moth that migrates from breeding grounds in Queensland to the Victorian Alps during the summer months.

European exploration and settlement
Baron Ferdinand von Mueller, Angus McMillan and Alfred Howitt were some of the first Victorian settlers to explore the Victorian Alps in the early 1850s. Gold was found in the region in 1852 and brought thousands to the high plains. In search of grazing pastures men such as John Mitchell, George Gray, James Brown and John Wells travelled from central Victoria in what is now the Hume region to the Bogong high plains, settling in the area because of its abundance of natural grass fields. These early settlements were often seasonal as the harsh winter made grazing and mining impractical. The communities in the Victorian Alps were disconnected from Australian civilisation, which bred a distinctive way of life epitomised in the famed poem by Banjo Patterson, "The Man from Snowy River". After the Second World War a growing population increased the demand for timber from the Victorian Alps. This added growth to the economy of the area with the building of a series of roads, train-lines and bridges, the most prominent of these being the Great Alpine Road, a 308 km fully paved mountain pass that connects Bairnsdale in East Gippsland, to Wangaratta in Central Victoria. The road reaches an altitude of 1845 m AHD at a site called the cross, which is the highest section of sealed road in Australia; the site was a popular tourist destination with motorists in the 1920s and 1930s.

The introduction of snow-sports to Victoria began in the 1910s, with the government-funded building of the Mount Buffalo chalet. The chalet is the largest wooden building in Australia and was for many years the only ski field in the Victorian Alps. In the decades following skiing in the Alps grew slowly, predominantly centred around ski clubs such as the University Ski club which was founded in 1929 under the name Melbourne University Ski Club. In the early 1960s skiing began to evolve as ski fields started to install tow ropes and Austrian immigrants like Hans Grimus at Mount Buller and Peter Zirknisker at Mount Hotham, opened ski rental businesses and lodges at their respected mountains.

Location and features
Comprising the Bogong High Plains, Bowen Range, Cathedral Range, Cobberas Range, and numerous other smaller ranges, the Victorian Alps include the Alpine Shire, parts of the East Gippsland Shire, and some parts of the Mansfield Shire local government areas. The Alps are sometimes called the High Plains or High Country. The 2016 Australian Bureau of Statistics census showed that the Alpine Shire had 12,337 permanent residents with 49.2% male and 50.8% female, and a median age of 49.

The highest peak in the range is Mount Bogong at an elevation of 1986 m AHD, which is also the highest peak in Victoria. Other prominent peaks within the region are as follows; Mount Feathertop at an elevation of 1922 m AHD, Mount Hotham at an elevation of 1862 m AHD and Mount Buffalo at an elevation of 1723 m AHD ,.

Flora
The majority of unique flora is found above the timberline at 1500 m AHD, the region above the forest of Eucalyptus (ADH). The unique flora includes the largest range of Tussock Grasses (Poa spp.), Herbaceous Daisies, Eyebrights and Carexes (small sedges) in Australia. Many other small vegetation ecosystems appear on the High Plains, including but not limited to Tussock grassland, Alpine shrubby heathland, Subalpine woodland and Tall Alpine herb field. Important or notable species within the Victorian alps include:

 * Snow gum (Eucalyptus pauciflora)
 * Snow daisies (Celmisia spp)
 * Pineapple grass (Astelia alpina)
 * Alpine trachymene (Trachymene humilis)
 * Billy buttons (Craspedia spp.)
 * Leafy bossiaea (Bossiaea foliosa)
 * Grevillea (Grevillea australis)

Mammals
The Victorian alps is home to a variety of small marsupials and mammals, many of which are found nowhere else on earth. The Mountain pygmy possum is a prime example of this as it can only be found within the alpine regions of Victoria and NSW. Thought to be extinct until they were rediscovered in the 1960s at Mount Hotham, the Mountain pygmy possum is now on the critically endangered species list due to introduced predators like the fox, reduction in habitat and lowering number of the Bogong moth. The region is also home to echidna, common wombat, wallaby, kangaroo and bush rat.

Other vertebrates
Other vertebrates found within the region include common native woodland bird species such as Robins, Sparrows, Rosellas, Fantails, Currawongs and Honeyeaters; as well as six species of frog and several variants of skink. The Alpine she oak Skink is on the endangered species list due to the severe fires in the region over the past decades. The Baw Baw frog is critically endangered with estimated number being below 1,000, the major threat to this species is a disease from the fungus Amphibian Chytrid called Chytridiomycosis. Mountain streams are also populated by species of small fish such as the Mountain Galaxia. There is very limited fauna diversity within the Victorian alps, due to the climate, and exposed conditions.

Introduced species
Introduced species are considerably dangerous to the delicate ecosystem that is the Victorian Alps. Red foxes are the fourth most common species found in the area due to the abundance of other introduced species such as rabbit and hare. Brumbies/wild Australian horses are also a major pest in the Victorian High Plains. The horse's hard hooves trample the local flora, because of this the Victorian Government has extended efforts to cull the wild horses from the national park. However, Initiatives to block the culling of Brumbies claiming they are “national icons” gained traction in May 2020, seeing the 2020 seasonal cull being put on hold. A supreme court injunction led by Phillip Maguire has caused this halting of the cull, as petitions on "Change.org", led by OCEAN LEGAL have gathered over 100,000 signatures in support of preventing the cull.

Other introduced species within the region include Deer, pigs, goats, cats, trout and dogs. The Victorian Government's response to these pests in the national park involves extensive trapping and baiting programs ran by the Parks managers.

As well as wild pests, production animals such as Cattle and sheep were previously also found in the Victorian Alps. Cattle grazing can cause major disturbances to the natural flora and rare grass species found above the tree line 1500 m AHD. The effect the cattle have on the environment is amplified through the short growing season for alpine flora, which means that once they are disturbed it can take a long time to recover. Because of the severity of damage subdued to the Alpine national park flora the Victorian government banned cattle grazing in the park in 2015 as a part  of the National Parks Amendment (Prohibiting Cattle Grazing) Bill 2015. Cobungra station however continues the heritage of alpine cattle grazing, without damaging the flora above the tree line as it nestled between 1500m and 1000m in the foothills below Mount Hotham. Cobungra station is a significant staple of the Victorian alpine region as it boasts the largest wagyu station in the state.

Geology
In the Victorian Alps, bedrock is exposed along the entire range. Because of the exposed bedrock, Geologists have been able to determine that the rock types at surface of the range today were formed in an ancient ocean, between 530 and 400 million years ago. The Mountains in the range are flat and round when compared other prominent ranges around the world, this is due to two main factors. Firstly the Victorian Alps originated through continental splitting; secondly the Victorian Alps were never tall enough to develop large glaciers, and it is the erosion from ice that produces jagged peaks. The Victorian Alps are still being influenced by plate tectonics today, as continental collision with New Zealand drives the range up each year. This contradicts earlier theories about the range, which assumed the mountains size was due to years of erosion, in fact it is now believed that the Australian Alps are a relatively young range, forming their current peaks in the last 10 million years.

Water catchment
The Victorian Alps receive some of the most rainfall in Victoria with locations such as Falls Creek elevation 1765 m AHD receiving an average of 12273 mm annually from 1990 to 2020. The high volumes of water that fall within the region, feed waterways such as the Yarra river, and Gippsland lakes. The Murray River is also fed by the Victorian Alps, and although the region only accounts for 1% of the Murray's catchment area it is estimated to provide over 29% to the annual flow. This is due to the high amounts of snow, and the unique alpine vegetation which has the ability to hold water and regulate its release throughout the year. Water from the Victorian Alps is also used for power generation at the Kiewa Hydroelectric scheme, although not as extensive as the Snowy Mountains Scheme, the Kiewa scheme still provides Victoria with 241MW.

Winter recreation
In the winter the main attraction in the Victorian Alps is the ski fields, the largest of which by number of lifts is Mount Buller and the largest of which by skiable terrain is Mount Hotham. Other Victorian ski fields include Mount Baw Baw, Mount Stirling, Lake Mountain, Falls Creek and previously Mount Buffalo. Ski touring within the Victorian Alps is also very popular with famed routes such as the Twin Valleys, Mount Bogong, Feathertop Ridge and other Mount Hotham side country routes. There are many converted cattleman's huts that litter the alpine landscape to accommodate such activities. On the whole the snow-sports industry brought over $911 million of gross state profit to the Victorian economy in the 2016/2017 financial year. Over the same period the region saw over 762,981 visitors across ski season which produced almost 1.4 million visitor nights.

Summer recreation
Summer recreation brings in lower annual visitor numbers as seen over the summer months in 2016/2017, when the region received 348,366 tourist for a total of 485,722 visitor days. Large events such as the Peaks Challenge which sees cyclists ride 235 km through the High Plains, contribute to these numbers. The Dinner Plain Polo is another yearly event that sees a rise in tourist numbers in the area. Founded 31 years ago, the Dinner Plain Polo is the longest, and highest in altitude running polo competition in Australia. Bushwalking is also a large part of summer recreation in the Victorian Alps. The recently finished Mount Hotham to Falls Creek overnight walking track, spans some of the highest regions of the Victorian Alps, with overnight stops at both Cope and Dibbins hut; the walk is 37 kilometres in total. Other summer activities that draw visitors to the Victorian Alps include mountain biking (at Lake Mountain, Mount Baw Baw, Mount Beauty, Mount Buller, Bright, Falls Creek, Dinner Plain amongst others) rock climbing (particularly at Mount Buffalo), trout fishing and horse riding.

title: Victorian Alps


text:
Talk:Champlain sea

It is estimated that the sea was as much as 150 meters above the level of today's Saint Lawrence and Ottawa Rivers. Shouldn't this read Former marine shorelines have been identified at locations that are now as much as 150 meters above the level of today's Saint Lawrence and Ottawa Rivers. For the text as-is to be true, sea levels worldwide would have had to have been that much higher. This is a local effect, at least I think, that might be better described. --Wetman 07:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Champlain sea


text:
Hachikō Line

The Hachikō Line is a 92.0 km (57.2 mi) regional railway line owned and operated by East Japan Railway Company (JR East). It is located within Tokyo, Saitama, and Gunma Prefectures in Japan. It connects Hachiōji Station in Hachiōji, Tokyo with Kuragano Station in Takasaki, Gunma Prefecture.

Services
Komagawa Station in Hidaka, Saitama is the boundary point between two distinct sections. The southern section from Hachiōji to Komagawa is electrified at 1,500 V DC. Some trains terminate at Komagawa, while others continue over the Kawagoe Line to Kawagoe Station.

The non-electrified northern section connects Komagawa with Kuragano. All trains continue on the Takasaki Line to Takasaki, where transfer to the Jōetsu Shinkansen is available. There are no through services connecting the southern and northern halves of the line.

The Hachikō Line takes the first kanji of its name from the first character of Hachiōji (八王子) and the second kanji from the first character of Takasaki (高崎).

Stations

 * All trains stop at every station.
 * Stations marked "o" or "^" allow passing; stations marked" | " do not. Stations marked "∥" are double-tracked.

Rolling stock

 * 209-3500 series 4-car EMUs x 5 (Kawagoe Line/Hachiko Line services since 7 May 2018)
 * E231-3000 series 4-car EMUs x 6 (Kawagoe Line/Hachiko Line services since 19 February 2018)
 * KiHa 110 series DMUs (formed as 1- to 3-car trains for services north of Komagawa) (since 18 March 1993)

From 2017, former E231-0 series ten-car sets based at Mitaka Depot for use on Chūō–Sōbu Line services were reformed and converted to become four-car E231-3000 series sets based at Kawagoe for use on Kawagoe Line and Hachiko Line services. The first set entered revenue service on the line on 19 February 2018.

From 2018, former 209-500 series ten-car sets based at Mitaka Depot for use on Chūō–Sōbu Line services were reformed and converted to become four-car 209-3500 series sets based at Kawagoe for use on Kawagoe Line and Hachiko Line services.

Rolling stock previously used

 * KiHa 35 DMUs (until 15 March 1996)
 * 103-3000 series EMUs (from March 1985 until October 2005)
 * 103-3500 series EMU (from March 1996 until March 2005)
 * 201 series EMUs (Chūō Line (Rapid) through services between Komagawa and Haijima, until March 2008)
 * 205-3000 series 4-car EMUs x 5 (Kawagoe Line/Hachiko Line services since 11 November 2003 until July 2018)
 * 209-3000 series 4-car EMUs x 4 (Kawagoe Line/Hachiko Line services from 16 March 1996 until February 2019)
 * 209-3100 series 4-car EMUs x 2 (Kawagoe Line/Hachiko Line services since 17 April 2005 until 2022 )
 * E233 series EMUs (Chūō Line (Rapid) through services between Komagawa and Haijima, from 17 March 2007 until 11 March 2022)

History
The first section of the line, named the Hachikō North Line (八高北線, Hepburn: Hachikō-kita-sen), opened from Kuragano to Kodama on 1 July 1931, followed by the section from Hachioji to Higashi-Hanno, named the Hachikō South Line (八高南線, Hepburn: Hachikō-minami-sen), on 10 December 1931. The Hachiko North Line was extended southward from Kodama to Yorii on 25 January 1933, and the Hachiko South Line was extended northward from Higashi-Hanno to Ogose on 15 April 1933. The Hachiko South Line was further extended northward from Ogose to Ogawamachi on 24 March 1934, and the last section between Ogawamachi and Yorii opened on 6 October 1934, connecting the north and south sections, and completing the entire line, which became known simply as the Hachiko Line.

All passenger operations were switch from steam haulage to electric trains from 20 November 1958.

CTC signalling was commissioned over the entire line from 27 February 1985. On 1 April 1987, with the privatization and splitting of Japanese National Railways (JNR), the Hachiko Line was transferred to the ownership of JR East.

From 16 March 1996, the Hachioji to Komagawa section was electrified at 1,500 V DC, and services on the non-electrified section north of Komagawa to and from Takasaki were operated separately as one-man driver only operation services using KiHa 110 series DMUs, and the southern section began through service operations to the Kawagoe Line to Kawagoe Station. Also from the same date until 11 March 2022, some morning rush hour services left the Hachikō Line at Haijima Station and travel to Tokyo via the Ōme Line and Chūō Line; the reverse happened during the evening rush.

Starting 12 March 2022, the southern section from Hachiōji to Komagawa (and through services to the Kawagoe Line) began one-man driver only operation services using the existing 209-3500 and E231-3000 series EMUs.

Former connecting lines

 * Komagawa station – A freight-only line serving the Nippon Cement works in Hidaka operated from 1963 until 1984, which also connected to Nishi-Oya on the Tobu Ogose Line.

Accidents
In 1945, a head-on collision at the Tamagawa bridge resulted in 105 fatalities.

The Hachiko Line derailment in 1947 is Japan's worst rail accident since World War II in terms of fatalities.

title: Hachikō Line


text:
Encarta Webster's Dictionary

The Encarta Webster's Dictionary of the English Language (2004) is the second edition of the Encarta World English Dictionary, published in 1999 (Anne Soukhanov, editor). Slightly larger than a college dictionary, it is similar in appearance and scope to the American Heritage Dictionary, which Soukhanov previously edited. Created using the Bloomsbury dictionary database, it draws on English as it is spoken in all parts of the English-speaking world.

A distinctive feature of the dictionary is the abbreviated definitions, highlighted prior to the full definition, for a quick glance meaning or to identify the sense being sought.

The Encarta name is also used for the abbreviated college dictionary editions.

Publication data

 * Encarta World English Dictionary (1999), Anne Soukhanov, editor. St. Martin's Press, 2078 p., ISBN 978-0-312-22222-2
 * Microsoft Encarta College Dictionary: The First Dictionary For The Internet Age, (2001), Anne Soukanov, editor. St. Martin's Press, 1728 p., ISBN 978-0-312-28087-1
 * Encarta Webster's Dictionary of the English Language: Second Edition (2004), Anne Soukhanov, editor. Bloomsbury Publishing, PLC, 2208 p., ISBN 978-1-58234-510-9
 * Encarta Webster's College Dictionary: 2nd Edition  (2005), Kathy Rooney, editor, Bloomsbury Publishing PLC, 1728 p., ISBN 978-1-59691-085-0

title: Encarta Webster's Dictionary


text:
Talk:Lower Peninsula of Michigan

Michigan Regions
Who wrote this? Flint doesn't belong in the thumb, it belongs in the region called "Mid-Michigan". - Chris5369 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.185.126 (talk) 07:49, 4 February 2005 (UTC)

 * I wouldn't really put Flint in mid-Michigan myself, it's too far east and south. Mackensen (talk) 13:12, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * That's what it says when I turn on the news, "Mid-Michigan's" Premier News Station. - Chris5369 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris5369 (talk • contribs) 08:31, 14 February 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be better to refer to the southeastern area as "Southeast Michigan" and not Metro Detroit. Not all of that area is really part of the metropolitan area. I don't think many people consider Monroe County, for instance, as being part of Metro Detroit. Funnyhat 07:48, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree. I think I've made similar comments on Talk:Metro Detroit. older ≠ wiser 12:11, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Although Flint's TV stations refer to it as being part of "Mid-Michigan," couldn't Flint possibly be considered part of Southeast Michigan? I certainly don't think it is part of the Thumb, nor do I think that Saginaw or Bay City are. To my knowledge, for example, Saginaw schools are not invited to the Thumb Tournament of Champions track meet. Not definitive, I realize, but nothing with regard to this is, and the perceived reality is reality in this circumstance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Applefan84 (talk • contribs) 04:39, 8 July 2005 (UTC)
 * From a Northern Michigan point of view, Flint is 'Downstate.' Not that this contributes anything to the debate... Also, from a NM point of view, Downstate consists of Mid-michigan(Mount Pleasant/Lansing), Kalamazoo/GR, and Metro Detroit. and the Thumb.MPS 8 July 2005 15:51 (UTC)
 * While a valid observation, MPS, I don't think that helps this particular debate because we're attempting to make differentiations between what you are saying a northern Michigander sees as "downstate." On the other hand, your comment is valuable (to me, at least) because it reaffirms what is truly Northern Michigan; too many of the people I know in Southeast Michigan consider anything north of Pontiac to be "up north," which to me seems incredibly parochial and arrogant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Applefan84 (talk • contribs) 16:05, 8 July 2005 (UTC)

As a native of Mount Pleasant, I'd say it's "Central Michigan." It doesn't feel the same way as northern Michigan (Grayling, Petoskey, etc), but it doesn't really fit with the more urban south (Lansing and Flint on down). As I see it, Flint belongs more to the south on account of its industrial and urban qualities. Mackensen (talk) 8 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)

Here, I made this:

Flint really doesn't fit with the Thumb, SE Michigan, or Central Michigan. We feel closer to Saginaw and Lansing than anything else. I'd recommend you call the region I created (and possibly limit to half the areas of Shiawasse, Lapeer, and Saginaw Cos., and all of Genesee Co.) as "Mid-Michigan". It only makes sense.

I only made changes to that map, regarding Flint. I'd suggest that Mt. Pleasant's influence extends slightly more north than on the map, and that Traverse City and East Tawas aren't so similar. - Chris5369 5:55PM (EST) 10/28/05 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris5369 (talk • contribs) 21:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * We are attempting to describe not create. If that is a recognized region we could use it but we cannot make up a new fact ourselves. Rmhermen 02:47, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
 * We may want to consider adding Tri-Cities of Michigan somehow.MPS 22:43, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Proposed new map

I have created a new map based on the dial pages of [Michiguide] in SVG format. I feel that these regions are the most accurate. Nobody will ever totally agree on what county or city belongs in what region, but this looks like the best compromise. MonkeyWrench32 08:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's a great idea to break it out by county. You could also use cross hatching for counties that are borderline or that have a sub-region (for example, Huron County, Michigan + Sanilac County, Michigan = "The Thumb" might have diagonal lines but be the same color as Flint Tri-Cities) and you could have a small label or legend on the map that indicates the meaning of the cross-hatch style. MPS 19:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that this map is a good compromise. I also think it gets West Michigan right, since that region doesn't generally extend as far north as Ludington or Manistee (such as on the old map).  I also think that there should be a mention of the tension zone somewhere on this page.  This is a line that roughly extends from Manistee to Bay City and is well-known by geographers across the nation as a distinct geological and vegetational boundary, where the sandy soils and sub-boreal vegetation found in the north meet the southern vegetation in the south.  The existence of this boundary effectively determined settlement patterns in the state, and it might be worth mentioning here.triphook 18:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I like the map; I'm putting it in. Funnyhat 02:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I uploaded it onto Commons as commons:Image:Lower Peninsula of Michigan map.png. Yassie 01:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice map. However, it should still reflect "The Thumb" and "Southern Michigan" regions. Ask anyone in Bad Axe if they are in the "Flint/Tri-Cities" area. They will say, no, we are in "The Thumb". Similarly, Coldwater is thought of as being in "Southern Michigan", not "Mid-Michigan".TRosenbaum 04:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Regions of Lower Michigan
I find this conversation very interesting... For the Flint/Tri-Cities area, I would prefer to see Huron, Tuscola, and Sanilac counties renamed (The Thumb) as there is an article on that term. Secondly, Saginaw, Bay and Midland Counties should be regionalized as the Tri-Cities Region. I will be posting my recommendation in image format. — Preceding undated comment added 03:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. In my opinion (not necessarily that of everyone) "The Thumb" is a region of Michigan and should be on the map. What about the "Upper Peninsula" region eh? TRosenbaum 05:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Are Regional "Probability" Definitions/Maps In Order?
I don't think agreement on absolute regional boundaries is possible without a strict definition of "region". The concept of region is ambiguous -- it means different things to different people. Have a look at how the ambiguous regional boundary issue was resolved for the "Northwest Ohio" region. The text lists counties that "are or may be" classified as part of the region. The map uses different colors showing counties that are included in the region "always", "most of the time", and "least". The Northwest Ohio region article even says "Just like any other region, there is no universally agreed-upon line for northwestern Ohio, as the entire area is defined differently by the opinions of multiple people." If we did something similar for Michigan, then we could argue about which category or degree each city/county belongs in instead of whether or not a city belongs in a region at all :) The "regional fuzziness" disclaimer might be helpful too -- at least it acknowledges that the regional boundaries are different for different observers. A con is that this would require a different map for each region (to show probability of inclusion in region) TRosenbaum 05:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Trolls
Residents of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan are called "Trolls" by residents of the Upper Peninsula.

This is a reference to the LP being directly south of, or under, the Mackinac Bridge; and the Norwegian fairy tale, Three Billy Goats Gruff, in which one of the characters is a Troll who lives under a bridge.

The article should be edited to include this humorous nickname for residents of the LP.

72.82.162.26 (talk) 15:20, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A verifiable source is needed to include this topic. A work of fiction, ie. the book "A Thousand Bones", is not a source of fact. Bamyers99 (talk) 02:03, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No, common knowledge does not require sources. Rmhermen (talk) 02:24, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't believe this falls under common knowledge. I don't think that more than a very small percentage of English speakers will know about this term. See Common knowledge 'When to seek professional help' section, 'Indirect knowledge' sub-section, Verifiability. Bamyers99 (talk) 16:39, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * While I'm not sure it qualifies as "common knowledge", it is in my opinion well-established usage and the reference to its usage in a work of fiction is a good indication of the conventionality of the usage. older ≠ wiser 17:08, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Dubious peninsularity
Peninsulas are delimited by seas and lakes. Rivers are not wide enough to delimit peninsulas, except at a micro scale. So a short bend in the River Thames can delimit the Greenwich Peninsula, which is similar in width to the river; but the huge Ordos Loop in the Yellow River does not delimit a peninsula. South of Lake Huron, the eastern "shore" of the Lower Peninsula is delimited in part by the St. Clair River and Detroit River; being rivers rather than lakes, they are not wide enough to provide a contiguity of surrounding water down to the Ohio border. Thus in physical geography, most of Southeast Michigan is not part of any peninsula. I am sure that I am not the first to pick this particular nit; perhaps it is worth mentioning in the article. jnestorius(talk) 19:21, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll just leave this here, about the other peninsula: Talk:Upper Peninsula of Michigan/Archive 3. Chris857 (talk) 20:24, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "Rivers are not wide enough to delimit peninsulas, except at a micro scale." - sez you. Now let's see a reference. Any scholarly source that says the LP is not a peninsula. Rmhermen (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Let me elaborate on my previous statement: "I am sure that I am not the first to pick this particular nit". I imagine scholars have better things to do with their time, but maybe a Yooper journalist engaging in banter might claim that the Lower Peninsula was Not Even a Real Peninsula. Perhaps a Michigan-based Wikipedian might remember such an instance, and not feel they were slighting their great state by citing it. As to the definition of peninsula: dictionaries differ; some say land "projecting into a body of water", others land "surrounded by water". Perhaps a linguistics monograph on vagueness might use "peninsula" as an example; I can't see geographers getting worked up about fine-tuning a definition. I've just discovered the designation "Niagara Peninsula", which is even more dubious. It would be interesting WP:OR to look at other chains of lakes, in places like Minnesota or Finland, and see whether "peninsula" was used with respect to areas partly delimited by rivers. My hypothesis is that the likelihood of such a designation is greater:
 * where rivers (as opposed to lakes/seas) make up a smaller fraction of the total delimitation
 * where a significant political boundary coincided with the delimitation.
 * Otherwise salient or panhandle is the term. jnestorius(talk) 12:44, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This page is for improvements to the article, not for Original Research or general discussion. Without you providing us some references, there is no point to this. Rmhermen (talk) 17:11, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * My core question was: "has there ever been debate about the peninsularity of LP?" I don't know the answer. It would seem that responders have never heard of any such debate. Fair enough; if that's the case, there let it rest, at least until someone shows up who has heard of such a debate. jnestorius(talk) 20:29, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Even if the rivers in the SE corner weren't counted, the LP indisputably extends into Lake Michigan-Huron as a peninsula. The question is pointless. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:20, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Per WP:NOTLEX we are not dictionary writers. (1) What do reliable sources say about what a peninsula is? (2) does anyone have any doubt that "Upper Peninsula" and "Lower Peninsula" are correct terms w.r.t. defining Michigan geography? I tend think "dubious peninsularity" is a non-issue that has no bearing on this article. Peace, MPS (talk) 20:20, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

How big is the Lower Peninsula?
The article mentions that it "contains nearly two-thirds of Michigan's total land area" but doesn't say what the total land area of the Lower Peninsula is. Does anyone know? It's useful to know the precise number for comparison sake. Thomas144 (talk) 19:03, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Economy section
I don't think that an "economy" section makes sense in this article. Most of the information in it is either about the state as a whole (e.g. every paragraph that begins "Michigan"), or focuses on only part of the LP (the sections about the automotive industry or Southeast-Michigan-based businesses). The Lower Peninsula simply isn't a distinct and cohesive economic (or cultural) entity in the way that the Upper Peninsula is. It's a geographic entity, and this article should stick to that. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:03, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The section appears to be an old copy-paste from Michigan, which isn't being updated here, making it an unhelpful fork. I'm removing it. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 16:39, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Upper Peninsula of Michigan which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Highest Point
Grove Hill, NOT Briar Hill, is the highest point on the LP, per this: https://peakbagger.com/list.aspx?lid=13402. Please revise. 2603:6080:BE00:17C8:501D:A024:4F81:4319 (talk) 01:32, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lower Peninsula of Michigan


text:
Wikipedia talk:Latter Day Saint Collaboration of the fortnight

Is it possible that the collaboration is for an unspecified period rather than a fortnight? If so should it be renamed? I don't mind having an article as the collaboration article, it just seems that there is no progression.

May I suggest that you move this page to be written with a hyphen? The only church that still uses this name writes it "Latter-day Saint". Ksnow 08:32, 11 August 2005 (UTC)Ksnow

 * Yeah these don't do much. I don't think changing the amount of time is going to make people more active, though. If I remember right, the church in Voree is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, without the hyphen. Also, this collaboration covers the entirety of the Latter Day Saint movement, not just the Utah church. Cookiecaper 14:53, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

''Can the wider gaming community easily contribute to the article? Or is it something only a small number of people will know about?''

Why is the word "gaming" there? Is it the result of a copy-and-paste from another COTW page? Andjam 09:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Collaborating again?
Now that the push for featuring Joseph Smith's article is over, and was a rousing success, how about collaborating again? This function/idea seems to be one of the LDS project groups weakest, and has had limited results during my time here. I personally have tried to contribute to the articles as they are chosen, but I admit not having added anything to Helaman.

So, would it be better to have a quarterly project? Or several projects in various areas (biographies, doctrine, history) going at the same time. Or should we look for problem articles needing work and make the collaboration an improvement project. (For example, the Mormon Battalion article has been tagged for improvement and could use a real reorganization. There are plenty of print sources for this one.)  Comments please. WBardwin 06:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Mormon Trail
I need a map!!!! I am doing a research project, and a map of the Mormon Trail is required! Please help me find a reasonably decent map of this fantastic trail!

Dead?
I'm really interested in contributing to collaborations on LDS articles, but this page doesn't seem to have a lot of ongoing activity (it still shows the section for August-September 2005). If things ever pick up, leave me a message and I'd be glad to help out. uriah923(talk) 01:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Takeover
I find I really don't have any faith that my comment above will elicit any response, so I'm going to start taking a lot of liberties with this page. First on the list is to update the current selection, for which I will use Mormon trail. Maybe if I keep this page going and organized it will get more work done. uriah923(talk) 01:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, maybe I'll leave Helaman as the present selection and upgrade this page in the meantime. I'm going to make this page a monthly collaboration, as it's listed on the info box. I'm going to base the structure off of the Canada collaboration, I think. uriah923(talk) 02:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed my mind again. I think I'll just create a new collaboration called Mormon collaboration. If you're looking here for a non-defunct collaboration page on this topic, come on over. uriah923(talk) 02:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Do you really need to create a new page? Moving this to a new "title" would retain the old history on both the main and talk pages.  I would agree that "fortnight" should go -- much to short a time to accomplish anything of great value.  But .... as to the use of "Mormon", the term almost exclusively applies to the Utah based LDS church, excluding all others sects in the group.  How about Latter Day Saint collaboration to be all inclusive?  By the way -- I would vote again for either Mormon Trail or Mormon Battalion, but there are many other weak articles.  Hope to be able to help.  WBardwin 04:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

 * See ongoing discussion on uriah923(talk.

Merger proposal - Wikipedia:Latter Day Saint Collaboration of the fortnight and Wikipedia:Mormon collaboration
Recommend merging Mormon collaboration into Latter Day Saint Collaboration of the fortnight due to lengthy inactivity. Hopefully merging will draw attention to the effort and increase collaboration. Deaddebate (talk) 02:45, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

A new newsletter directory is out!
A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.
 * – Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Electromagnetic bomb

Old talk
I don't know if this should persist; please try to cite your sources Lectonar 07:50, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You may be right, but I'm not certain yet.

For sources, here's a link to an article on these. Here's another one.

I just found that electromagnetic bomb redirects to Explosively pumped flux compression generator. I might redirect this one too, but I think someone else ought to call it.

One possible reason this may need its own item would be if Explosively pumped flux compression generator was actually a type of E-bomb.

If so, then electromagnetic bomb should be redirected here. Otherwise, E-bomb should be redirected there. Randy 15:01, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Electromagnetic bomb now redirects here. Eric Herboso 22:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * This should be moved to electromagnetic bomb instead. I will do it with my new admin powers as soon as the electromagnetic bomb article is deletable (block-compressed revisions problem?) - Omegatron 23:56, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Possible copyvio
The article has been expanded, and I love all the new info, but much of the text is just copied and pasted from outside websites. This needs to be changed ASAP, or else a will have to be put up on the page. - Eric Herboso 22:01, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Popular Mechanics quote might have been a copyright problem, however, the other quotes aren't in violation, as they are not copyrighted. I don't see what the problem is exactly anyways. It's noted that everything marked with a "*" is quoted from said page.--^Syke^ 06:27, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

(1) Acknowledging the source is good, but it's still violating the author's copyright unless permission for use is explicitly granted. (2) No, this is not "fair use", it's simple duplication. (3) Copyright exists automatically even if there's no (c) symbol or anything like that. -- AnonymousCoward, 13 March 2005

I've removed all the offending material. You can't use others' material verbatim, or even with rephrasing, without permission. —Simetrical (talk) 04:38, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

References added
Added reference to Spooks series 6, episode 1. Here, armoured Landrovers don't seem to function as Faraday cages in the face of roadside electromagnetic attacks... Binary-x (talk) 13:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Social effects
Since we are directed here from the EMP site and it states that to see damage from an EMP go here, maybe this is the place to list all the results to a developed nation if an EMP explodes above it. For example, our communications and transportation systems would fail, but would cars be affected. The setting off of an EMP above the US would take us back to the 1800s before electricity. No mail, no work, no food, no refridgeration, no heat, no gasoline for cars, no airlines, etc. Great place for this discussion, but it needs to be accurately done. Trucker11 (talk) 14:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge?
I read the article on Electromagnetic Pulse and a large focus of that article is on emp weaponry. Since this article is a stub, and e-bombs are a type of EMP weapon, I suggest this article be merged with that one. I might do it after I get sufficient feedback. Thanks. --Pyg 02:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I would rather see the weaponery portion of EMP be merged into this article and leave EMP to the physics & theory behind it. Cburnett 04:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I think the EMP article should be improved so that it is not just about weaponry. Do not merge.  CaptainJ(t 15:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The difficulty there is that EMP is primarily a weapon effect, and there's very little to discuss in the main article outside of its use as a weapon. It's like expecting an article about tasers not to focus on applying electricity to a living body. 205.175.225.22 (talk) 19:45, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Would it be better if the EMP page mentioned more of the non-weaponized versions of EMP? I believe there is a related effect from lightning bolts, for example. Sociotard (talk) 19:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Defense
Is there any defense against this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frap (talk • contribs) 01:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, but not for your typical private citizen. The article briefly mentions Faraday cages. Basically you protect something from EMP by giving all that energy somewhere else to go, usually by surrounding what you want to protect with conductive material that's well-grounded. If you're looking at, say, protecting your home computer from EMP, then unfortunately there's not a lot you can do. All those cables coming in and out the back of your computer will carry the EMP from the wall socket or from the air straight into the electronics inside and fry them. The cables mess up whatever else you may try to do to shield your PC. Stopping that requires extensive filtering on all connections. That being said, there are buildings and electronics out there that can be & are built to be safe from EMP weapons. Nuclear missile silos are all built to be safe from EMP. Banks, I think, also have EMP-safe backups of financial information. It's possible, it's expensive, and it's already in place in some important places. 205.175.225.22 (talk) 20:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Cars are Faraday cages that can even withstand lightning, as has been proven again and again. So is the story about all the cars grinding to a halt as a first sign of EMP attack, like in The Day After or Warday, just a stereotype?
 * Also, even if car electronics were vulnerable, couldn't you just bury a metal crate full of spares so you could fix up your ride in the post-attack world? Maybe throw in a laptop and a radio while you're at it.--Cancun771 (talk) 20:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You could probably buy spare electronics for a car, yes. However this wouldn't be all that cheap, and most Americans wouldn't know how to install the replacements anyway.  If you do, more power to you.  As for the car acting as a Faraday Cage: I wouldn't bank on it.  Look at http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/security/has197010.000/has197010_1.HTM, where it says the following:
 * " Other conducting structures, such as aircraft, ships, automobiles, railroad tracks, power lines, and communication lines connected to ground facilities, also effectively serve as receiving antennas for EMP coupling. If the resulting induced currents and voltages, which can be large, are allowed to interact with sensitive electronic circuit and components, they can induce an upset in digital logic circuits or cause damage to the components themselves."
 * Sociotard (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Rendering Faraday cages useless because of the conductors

 * Some makeshift Faraday cages have been suggested, such as aluminium foil, although such a cage would be rendered useless if any conductors passed through, such as power cords or antennas.

I find this affirmation rather dubious because the electromagnetic bombs affect mostly miniaturized electronic circuits, which have wires small enough to be burnt by the additional electricity from induction. It is highly unlikely that a powercord would get enough power from induction to destroy the electronic equipment. bogdan (talk) 19:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Generally the risk due to induction isn't due to the small amount of power induced in the power cord (or even the leads inside the IC) but rather the hundreds or thousands of volts that got induced in the power lines the power cord is connected to. If the electromagnetic field were strong enough to induce harmful voltages in the power cord itself, the field itself would be lethal to most mammals.

The E1 pulse can potentially put a few tens to hundreds of volts at very low current across even microscopic conductors, which is the primary damage to unconnected electronics. The E2 pulse is basically just like a lightning strike a few hundred feet away and does similar damage, but with a much larger footprint (It has a substantially similar strength at locations many hundreds of miles apart). The E3 pulse caused by the slow return of the distorted geomagnetic field primarily causes damage by inducing high voltages and high currents into long powerlines that can persist for 3-10 minutes or so. This primarily only affects long distance transport lines, not the much shorter local lines, and usually burns out transformers and insulators before getting to the local area. As such, it destroys infrastructure but offers relatively little direct damage to consumer electronics. 75.140.251.185 (talk) 00:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

HEMP - Not high frequency
According to a military report that I was reading, HEMP stands for High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse, not High Frequency Electromagnetic Pulse. Can someone fix this?  If you have any more reports on EMP or E-Bombs, let me know on my talk page, I'm interested in the subject. --Thr3ddy (talk) 14:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Horrible Article
So... there are NO scientists that think this threat might be a bit overblown or anything? A whole lot of hype in this article without any balance from skeptics, etc.

Articles like this make me embarrassed for wikipedia. Cowicide (talk) 21:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Electromagnetic bomb


text:
List of Thai Airways International destinations

Thai Airways International currently serves 56 international and 9 domestic destinations from its home base at Bangkok’s Suvarnabhumi Airport.


text: User talk:200.170.161.140

title: User talk:200.170.161.140


text:
Talk:Hachikō Line

Source
Initial information from Japanese Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fg2 (talk • contribs) 01:52, February 4, 2005

title: Talk:Hachikō Line


text: User talk:69.152.118.154

title: User talk:69.152.118.154


text:
Talk:Julio Carreras

What's with the (h) in his name? I notice it on a lot of sites when I Google his name, so I assume it is correct. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:02, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

This lacks any clear sources on the biographical information. I have no specific reason to doubt any of it, but references would be nice (as would some quotable independent remarks on him as a writer, or description of his writing by someone who has actually read it!). -- Jmabel | Talk 06:02, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

(h) means Jr. (hijo) Ejrrjs | What? 18:14, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

P.S. why does this Carreras guy deserve an entry at wikipedia?
 * I'd say borderline notable, but interesting enough to merit a keep. TNX on the "(h)", I don't believe I've ever seen that before, I'll add that to the article on Spanish and Portuguese names. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:54, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Julio Carreras


text:
Talk:House of Stasov

His esteemed posterity
G, as an abstract concept, posterity sounds fine, as in "leaving a gift for posterity". But when you make it a personal noun, as in "his posterity", it starts to sound synonymous with the noun usage of "posterior", which is a polite euphemism for rear end, bum, or arse. Not terrible, but it sounds a bit funny, and I would suggest a different choice of words:  maybe "legacy", "descendants", "heirs", or just "children". —Michael Z. 2005-02-4 07:54 Z
 * posterity
 * n 1: all of the offspring of a given progenitor; "we must secure the benefits of freedom for ourselves and our posterity" [syn: descendants] 2: all future generations. Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=posterity
 * There is a far cry from posterity to posterior. The Google search delivers 58 000 hits for "his posterity" and only 55 900 hits for another alternative, "his progeny". --Ghirlandajo 08:07, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I think Wikipedia is seriously hampering your mode of discourse. I'm just saying it sounds a bit like the section is about his bum.  Fine, leave it that way.  I'll have something to show people when we get bored.

 * But if it helps, here's the etymology of "posterity", from dictionary.com. Although they're usually used in different contexts (for good reason), it's a far cry from a far cry.  Both are nouns from the same Latin root meaning something of a person that follows immediately after him.  And when you isolate the word from context, and make it personal, well....

 * "[Middle English posterite, from Old French, from Latin posteritās, from posterus, coming after. See posterior.]"

 * —Michael Z. 2005-02-4 09:43 Z

title: Talk:House of Stasov