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Talk:List of transitional fossils

Short list
Is it just me or does this list seem very short? They've found more transitions than this, right? -StarManta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.74.76.214 (talk) 05:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see transitional fossils that make up a complete species. Seems a far reach taking fossils and building a case as a transitional fossil when in fact it is not the complete species. Briboy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.8.114.37 (talk) 12:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

This page has 2 references and hand drawn pictures, this is not even close to scientific. ...I realize, and am sympathetic, to the ideals of Wikipedia. But this is too far. "but the real reason we do not have those (pictures) is because we need people to take pictures of the fossils." Which people? What labs? This is not anti-evolution polemic. My background is biology and this opinion is less about the content and more about the presentation. I'll look, when I can, for references. But there should be about 100 "citations needed" and an explantatory banner. {ah, there is a banner of sorts, awfully small relative to some others I've seen here.}

Complete Revamping
This page is in great need of additions and reformatting to make it a lot nicer looking. I have come with a proposal for a complete revamping of this page.

 * 1) Cut out the limit to vertebrate evolutionary chains.
 * 2) Open the content range to include all evolutionary series at any taxonomic level.
 * 3) Use of tables to display the series.

Crappy hypothetical chart:

Abyssal leviathin (talk) 23:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Non-human apes to modern humans section
Should Paranthropus be listed here as well? Though sometimes we put them under Australopithecus I think that there is enough debate to add them to the list separately.--Woland (talk) 18:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

No.Paranthropus is an evolutionary dead end. sahelanthropus should though.142.22.115.59 (talk) 18:37, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Could we Consider new article name?
"Since all species are supposed to be in transition due to natural selection, the very term "transitional fossil" is essentially a misconception." Yup. Basically there's no such thing as a "transitional fossil" Also, all fossils are of complete organic systems perfect (in a manner of speaking) in thier individual moment. Also aside from simmiltude of appearance what proof is there that links one to the other in all the species listed? Are they each well documented and cited? --Oi!oi!oi!010101 (talk) 04:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If I'm wrong on this and the phrase "transitional fossil" is whats used in the scientific community, then just ignore me. :) --Oi!oi!oi!010101 (talk) 04:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I spent about five hours today reading a collection of technical papers, and the term "transitional" sensu "evolutionary intermediate" came up multiple times. Also, most of the species in the article are extremely well known transitions. If more editors would help fill in the table, the "transitionalness" of the species would be a lot more obvious. :) Abyssal (talk) 04:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Ma = Millions of Years ago / Megaannum
Could some one please add an explanation in the article of the "Ma" used for the years? I assume it means one of the two things in my heading here, but not 100% sure, and the article doesn't explain it. Don't want to edit the article and put the wrong defintion. Thanks Jimaginator (talk) 13:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

—Concur. I assumed it meant "millions of years ago", but that's just a guess from context. Can a knowledgeable user please define the term? Thanks. Sue D. Nymme (talk) 19:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It means a million years, and yes it's Megaannum.

File:100_1887.JPG may be deleted
I have tagged File:100_1887.JPG, which is in use in this article for deletion because it does not have a copyright tag. If a copyright tag is not added within seven days the image will be deleted. -- Chris  07:06, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Images
The images for this page should really be of the fossils themselves, rather than the reconstructions. Bueller 007 (talk) 15:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I am not opposed, though the reconstruction is often easier for the layman to visualize, but the real reason we do not have those is because we need people to take pictures of the fossils, upload and release them into the public domain. Nowimnthing (talk) 16:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

stuff
Shouldn't Hylonomus be listed here as the earliest confirmed reptile and Westlothiana should also be mentioned. Please add this, as tables are too cumbersome and weird for me to edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.68.209.34 (talk) 10:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Strange columns?
What's the function of the "Status" column? Why would we include any 'disputed' fossils on this article, and if they were disputed yet relevant why couldn't we note that under "Description"? For that matter, why can't we note "Relationship" under "Description" too? The excess of columns has had the negative result of cluttering the chart with blank columns that would otherwise be very easy to fill, but are now a huge (and largely unnecessary) project. Also, why do we have an "Appearance" column which, rather than showing the animal's appearance, lists the date of the fossil? Why not change "Appearance" to "Fossil range" and note when fossils have been discovered?

Similarly, I notice we're inconsistent in our image use: sometimes we include a photograph of the fossil itself, and at other times we include an artist's depiction of what the species might have looked like at the time. Once we've consolidated the other columns, why not make two image columns? We can have one column depicting the fossil, and another depicting what the animal might have looked like if we could see it in action. If we don't do this, I'm afraid we'll have to abandon the very useful and fascinating artists' depictions altogether, since after all this article is called "List of transitional fossils" and since the fossil images are vastly more verifiable and indisputable than any depiction could be. Even if we don't make two formal columns for those two sorts of images, it would be wise to informally start using two images (fossil photo + drawing) side-by-side in the one column, as a general practice to maximize informational value. Otherwise we either make the images useless to skeletal non-experts, or we make them too abstract and imaginative to be encyclopedic. -Silence (talk) 06:08, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Can we Please change the name of the article?
I agree with the above article. What is needed is the deletion of the drawings until actual photos are taken of the fossils. It is better to leave out any information until that information is clarified. Also, we should have more than one photo of the fossils. Maybe side shots too?

 * As for having more than one photo for each fossil, that would just clutter up the page and make it look really ugly. One picture for each creature listed is ideal.  And why delete the drawings?  We have fossils of all of these creatures and a simple google search should provide you with many many photographs of these fossils.  But in some cases, the fossil does not indicate very well to the layman what a creature looked like.  For those we use an artist's concept sketch, which is a very common thing to do.  For example, Tiktaalik - to my knowledge, thus far only the front half of it has been found.  If we show only that much, and large parts of what has been found still encased on rock, the layman, who has no evolutionary expertise and might not even be able to tell the difference between fossil and plain rock.  How are they supposed to get anything more than an extremely crude idea of what this animal looked like?  The artists sketches are based upon the fossils found and are the best estimates we have for what these creatures looked like.  They could, of course be wrong, being only artist sketches, which is why many dinosaurs used to be depicted as leathery skinned until we uncovered feather imprints, and now a lot of them are depicted with feathers.  I really don't see the problem with using sketches.  It's not like we use them because we don't actually have the fossil evidence.  Far from it.Farsight001 (talk) 20:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Gawis cranium
This is/was in the main article on transitional fossils. I guess it should go here somewhere in the human evolution section, but I'm not confident to place it myself. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Possible external link
I'm creating my own website on this subject, at http://transitionalfossils.com - and I was thinking it might fit in to the external links. However, I don't want to be the one to add it, since obviously I'm biased... (some Wikipedia images were used with permission of the original artist, since you ask. :) Strange Glue (talk) 20:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Images of fossils
For most of these species drawings are being used. Where can one find photos of some of the fossils themselves which can be used in addition to the drawings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitwoman (talk • contribs) 20:52, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Darwinius masillae
I've removed Darwinius masillae from the Human evolution section of this article. The claim is just too controversial.

 * "Touted as "the missing link" between humans and early primates, a 47-million-year-old fossil appears to be an ancestor to lemurs instead..." http://www.aolnews.com/science/article/ancient-primate-fossil-roils-scientific-community/19383401

 * "'Missing Link' Fossil Was Not Human Ancestor as Claimed, Anthropologists Say" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100302131719.htm

 * "Adapiforms are commonly referred to as the 'lemur-like' primates of the Eocene epoch, and recent phylogenetic analyses have placed adapiforms as stem members of Strepsirrhini2, 3, 4, a primate suborder whose crown clade includes lemurs, lorises and galagos. An alternative view is that adapiforms are stem anthropoids5. This debate has recently been rekindled by the description of a largely complete skeleton of the adapiform Darwinius 6, from the middle Eocene of Europe, which has been widely publicised as an important 'link' in the early evolution of Anthropoidea7. Here we describe the complete dentition and jaw of a large-bodied adapiform (Afradapis gen. nov.) from the earliest late Eocene of Egypt (approx37 Myr ago) that exhibits a striking series of derived dental and gnathic features that also occur in younger anthropoid primates—notably the earliest catarrhine ancestors of Old World monkeys and apes. Phylogenetic analysis of 360 morphological features scored across 117 living and extinct primates (including all candidate stem anthropoids) does not place adapiforms as haplorhines (that is, members of a Tarsius–Anthropoidea clade) or as stem anthropoids, but rather as sister taxa of crown Strepsirrhini; Afradapis and Darwinius are placed in a geographically widespread clade of caenopithecine adapiforms that left no known descendants. The specialized morphological features that these adapiforms share with anthropoids are therefore most parsimoniously interpreted as evolutionary convergences."   http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7267/abs/nature08429.html

--Yopienso (talk) 02:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A thousand pardons. I saw the creationist polemic line "Ida's not my grandmother!" and jumped to conclusions.  It did not occur to me that it was said in jest.Farsight001 (talk) 02:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries! And thanks.  Yopienso (talk) 03:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Koalas
Louys et al 2009 have accessed material for the basil genera Litokoala kutjamarpensis and Nimiokoala greystanesi, and have concluded that there are minor anatomical differences in cranial morphology for both genera. For the genus Litokoala contains superficial messateric process while Nimiokoala has "more marked basiooccipital-basisphenoid flexion and a more extensive posterior attachment of the pterygoid. And that they exibit a lot of common in basiocranial anatomy with modern Phascolarcos, but other features are more in line with the extant Trichosurus. This would be in line with a transitional fossil where these two genera are derived from a previous genus as yet unknown, that diverged to form the Vombatiformes and Phalangeriformes where feature on one or more fossil exibit features that are in current taxa, so providing a link between the two. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 03:51, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Pisanosaurus>Thecodontosaurus>Huayangosaurus>Stenopelix>Yinlong>Guanlong>Falcarius>Scieldosaurus>Probactrosaurus>Pelecanomimus?
This article was created to go from one stage to another, not list early species of groups. Cephalopods, Insects, Spiders, Chondoricthyes, Bony Fish, Amphibians, Turtles, Snakes, Lizards, Dinosaurs, Birds, & Mammals just list the basal species of the clades within them, not the transition from their anscestors to them, and should be split up.

This article, therefore, might imply that Monotremes evolved into Metatherians, which evolved into Marsupials, which evolved into Eutherians, which evolved into Elephants, which evolved into Carnivores, which evolved into Deer, which evolved into Cows, which evolved into Camels, which evolved into Ceratomorphs, which evolved into Tapirs, which evolved into Dogs, which evolved into Rabbits, which evolved into Bats, which evolved into Pandas, which evolved into Primates, which evolved into Orangutans, which evolved into Hippos. Did Hippos really evolve from Orangutans? -98.185.23.232 (talk) 13:51, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

 * You are quite right, basal is not necessarily the same as transitional. I am for deleting quit a few of those sections, or at least reworking them to show actual transitions. As for the Amphibians section, it doe shows transitions, but those are transitions from labyrinthodonts to lissamphibians. Thus what is wrong it is not as much the content, rather it being badly labelled. Petter Bøckman (talk) 00:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

A note on names (from - to)
The idea of a transitional fossil is an essentially Linnaean/evolutionary taxonomic concept. For any critter (actually any organism) to be transitional, there need to be two identified groups where one has given rise to the other (dinosaurs - birds being the typical example, with poor old aunty archy falling in between). This naturally need the "parent taxon" to be defined in a paraphyletic manner, or the idea of something being transitional between the two groups disappears. In phylogenetic nomenclature there is no paraphyletic taxa, and thus no such thing as a transitional fossil. This means that for the list to make any sense, we will need to use accepted paraphyletic groups. There is for instance no such thing as an "Archosaur to dinosaur transition", as Archosauria is cladisticallly defined, and dinosaurs are perfect archosaurs. For this transition to be meaningfull, it will have to be "basal archosaur to dinosaur" or "Thecodont (Archosauria as a grade) to dinosaurs".

This also goes for the wording in the list- A beautifully transitional critter like Tiktaalik can not be said to combine fishlike gills and fins with a tetrapod-like skull, because tetrapods include you and me and aardvarks, rats, birds, snakes and frogs, non of which have have skulls that looks even remotely like Tiktaaliks. We'll have to say that it has a skull resembling that of a known tetrapod (like Ichthyostega), that the skull resemble that of early/basal/primitive (take your pick) tetrapods, or compare it to some of the well defined paraphyletic taxons which it actually resembles, like the Ichthyostegalia. Even using Labyrinthodontia is streching it a bit as it was a fairly diverse group, and Amphibia is right out of the question (the skull of Tiktaalik looks nothing like that of a frog). Since the article itself hangs on a evolutionary taxonomic concept, we should be honest enough to admit so in the lede, and use terms accordingly.

Just thought I should mention it. Petter Bøckman (talk) 22:34, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Inclusion of non-transitional fossils
It seems that this list contains some fossils which are not transitional. The first section, "Nautiloids to Ammonoids," includes not only Bactritida, the transitional species, but also Nautiloids and Ammonoids, the start- and end-points of the series of which Bactritida is part. Would it not be more accurate to list only the transitional species? --Cerebellum (talk) 00:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

 * I think start and endpoints do help putting the whole thing in perspective. See the "Fish to tetrapods" for a fairly good example. Petter Bøckman (talk) 06:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

 * Perhaps, but I don't think a broad perspective is necessary here. Much of the material in "Fish to tetrapods" would be most appropriate in either Tetrapod or a new article, Evolution of tetrapods.  Including non-transitional fossils in a list of transitional fossils just seems odd to me.   --Cerebellum (talk) 23:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Living transitional organisms?
Is there a comparable article for the still-extant organisms that are transitional between established taxa? Monado (talk) 16:10, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

 * No, but there's one on living fossils, which fairly much covers the same thing. Petter Bøckman (talk) 17:07, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Numerous typos in the fish section- should be proofed.
Numerous typos in the fish section- should be proofed.

Xiaotingia
Shouldn't the recently discovered Xiaotingia replace Archaeopteryx as the earliest bird in the fossil record. After all, it predates its relative by ten million years and shares similar and derived traits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.196.0.10 (talk) 19:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

 * It depends on how you define birds I suppose. The common definitions seem to use old Aunty Archy as the cut-off point. I must admit Xiaotingia is new to me, but if it shows similar traits, it definitely belongs in the article! Petter Bøckman (talk) 20:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposed changes
Per my comment above about the removal of non-transitional fossils, here are a few entries that I would like to remove, taken from the "Amphibians to Amniotes" section.
 * Hylonomus - seems to be definitively a reptile, with few amphibian features.
 * Paleothyris - lacks fenestrae, but otherwise reptilian
 * Tseajaia - no indication of having scales, no claws on foot; not very transitional

What do you all think? If there is no disagreement I will remove these in a few days and then start looking at the other sections. --Cerebellum (talk) 13:54, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

 * The two reptiles are there to provide the end-poits of the transition. Hylonomus is most likely a non-sauropsid reptile, while Paleothyri is a proper sauropsid. These are minor points, but from a phylogenetic nomenclature point of view, only the latter is a "real" reptile, Hylonomus is predating Sauropsida (which according to the phylogenetic nomenclatural logic are the only "real" reptiles). If we all were using traditional classification, Hylonomus would be enough as an end-point, but if we are to be on the safe side and cater to all, Paleothyris should be there.

 * Tseajaia is one of several small taxa that has been proposed as the ancestors of amniotes. The problem is that there's really no consensus on the exact phylogeny of anything. Tseajaia may be a key genus or it may be well of the evolutionary line to amniotes, we really do not know, despite this being a transition that has seen a lot of very good cladistic work. See Labyrinthodontia for a summary. Petter Bøckman (talk) 20:39, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

 * The two reptiles are there to provide the end-points of the transition. Hmm, I guess we are back where we started: I don't want to include start or end-points in this list. :p I'll leave things as they are until someone else gives their opinion.  --Cerebellum (talk) 03:23, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Aren't ALL fossils transitional?
Evolution is an ongoing process so isn't EVERY fossil transitional between the fossils of its ancestors and the fossils of its descendants? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.71.43.37 (talk) 13:33, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

 * In principle, yes, all species (and thus all fossils) are points in a transition. However, the term "transitional fossil" is commonly reserved for fossils showing where the descendant group is sharply differentiated by gross anatomy and mode of living from the ancestral group.

the phrase "true transitional fossils" is highly misleading
There's nothing "untrue" about a fossil of a species that left no descendants. The phrase (from the second paragraph in the article head) "this list would only recursively include 'true' transitionals" should be erased because it only serves to mislead. The sentiment of the sentence is false: "Ideally, this list would only recursively include 'true' transitionals, fossils representing ancestral species from which later groups evolved, but most if not all, of the fossils shown here represent extinct side branches, more or less closely related to the true ancestor." If we want to make another list which shows only fossils of "ancestral species from which later groups evolved", that's fine. Putting creationist fodder in the head of this article is terrible; it misleads the public. Flies 1 (talk) 16:09, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

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//

importScript('User:AndyZ/peerreviewer.js'); //User:AndyZ/peerreviewer.js

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:ZeroOne/monobook.js


text:
Wanne, Germany

Wanne is a residential area in the northern outskirts of the city of Tübingen, Germany. It is situated on a south-facing slope. To the north of Wanne lies the nature protection area of the Schönbuch.

Description
The district borders Waldhäuser Ost and Schönblick/Winkelwiese to the east and the university district to the south and west. In the north, the district extends to the Goldersbach river.

The area consists mainly of housing built 1980s. Wanne is popular as a residential area because of its vicinity to the nature reserve, its elevation and southern exposure. It is also a popular location for people working at the Morgenstelle, a large complex of university buildings on the opposite slope, and at the cluster of university hospitals south of the complex. However, Wanne lacks shops and is not well connected to the historic city center of Tübingen.

title: Wanne, Germany


text: Talk:Mail rocket

title: Talk:Mail rocket


text:
Kohtla-Järve

Kohtla-Järve is a city and municipality in northeastern Estonia, founded in 1924 and incorporated as a town in 1946. The city is highly industrial, and is both a processor of oil shales and is a large producer of various petrochemical products. During the 1944–1991 Soviet occupation, large numbers of immigrant workers from Russia and other parts of the former USSR were brought in to populate the rapidly growing city. The population in the Kohtla-Järve area which had been, as of 1934 census, over 90% ethnic Estonian, became overwhelmingly non-Estonian in the second half of the 20th century. According to more recent data (as of 2006) 21% of the city's population are ethnic Estonians; most of the rest are Russians. Kohtla-Järve is the fifth-largest city in Estonia in terms of population.

Kohtla-Järve is unusual among the municipalities of Estonia due to its territory being made of several discontiguous parts. The two main parts, Järve (Kohtla-Järve proper) and Ahtme, both with populations around 20,000, are located about 10 km apart. Several other settlements in north-eastern Ida-Viru county, connected to oil shale mining, are administered as districts of Kohtla-Järve. During most of the period of the Soviet occupation, the town of Jõhvi was also incorporated into Kohtla-Järve.

History
The history of Kohtla-Järve is closely tied to the history of extraction of oil shale – the main mineral of Estonia.

There is evidence that a number of settlements existed on the territory of modern Kohtla-Järve since the High Middle Ages. In the Danish Land Book, Järve and Kukruse villages were first mentioned in 1241 by the names Jeruius and Kukarus respectively, and Sompa village in 1420 by the name Soenpe. Its German name was  Kochtel-Türpsal.

Local residents were aware of oil shale's flammable capability in ancient times, but its industrial extraction in Estonia began only in the 20th century. In 1916, researches showed that oil shale could be used both as fuel and as a raw material for chemical industry, and mining started near Järve village. In 1919, the Estonian State Oil Shale Industrial Corporation was formed and extraction by shaft and open-pit mining was extended. Settlements for workers began to appear adjacent to the mines. In 1924 the oil shale processing factory was built near Kohtla railway station, and the nearby settlement, named Kohtla-Järve, started to grow.

During World War II the value of the Estonian oil shale deposit grew. The Germans, who occupied Estonia in 1941–1944, considered it as an important source of fuel. However, they failed to begin full-scale extraction.

After the war, the next occupier of Estonia, the Soviet Union, required constantly increasing quantities of oil shale for its industries and extraction greatly expanded.

Demographics
Kohtla-Järve, as the main settlement in the mining area, received city status on 15 June 1946. Since that time, during the next twenty years, there was a process of administrative amalgamation of neighboring settlements within the limits of Kohtla-Järve. Kohtla and Kukruse were added to the city in 1949; Jõhvi, Ahtme and Sompa in 1960. The town of Kiviõli and the boroughs of Oru, Püssi and Viivikonna were subordinated to the city in 1964. Thus, Kohtla-Järve greatly expanded, becoming a city with a unique layout, as its parts remained scattered among woods, agricultural areas and oil shale mines. Total population of the city increased mainly by workers sent from different parts of Soviet Union, reaching (with subordinated settlements) 90,000 in 1980.

After the end of the Soviet Union occupation, Estonia regained independence in August 1991, and thereafter the number of city districts decreased, as Jõhvi, Kiviõli and Püssi became officially separate towns. The volume of oil shale extraction and processing decreased dramatically during the 1990s, and many Kohtla-Järve citizens moved to Tallinn or Russia, due to high unemployment in Ida-Viru County. Ahtme, which has been a part of Kohtla-Järve since 1960, had a population of 11 215 in 1959, including 1847 (16.5%) Estonians.

Economy
Kohtla-Järve is known for its chemical industry. It is the headquarters of Viru Keemia Grupp, an Estonian holding group of oil shale industry, power generation, and public utility companies. Eastman Chemical Company also has a manufacturing site located in Kohtla-Järve.

Since 2006, the Ukrainian DF Group has owned a fertilizer plant in Kohtla-Järve – it has (through its Austria and Cyprus based intermediaries) 100% ownership of AS Nitrofert. Established in 1993, AS Nitrofert was (as of 2006) the only plant to produce fertilizers in Estonia and during the peak of its production used 25% of the total volume of natural gas in Estonia.

Geography

Kohtla-Järve has a unique layout. The districts of the city are scattered across the northern part of Ida-Viru County in a considerably large area. The distance between Järve and Oru districts is about 20 km.

Districts
The city is subdivided into five administrative districts (linnaosad): The populations of many of the smaller exclaves have rapidly declined since the 1990s. Before the Estonian administrative reform of 2017, Viivikonna and Sirgala (combined population of 99) were also part of the municipality.

Twin towns – sister cities
Kohtla-Järve is twinned with:

 * 🇱🇹 Kėdainiai, Lithuania
 * 🇷🇺 Kingiseppsky District, Russia
 * 🇺🇦 Korostyshiv, Ukraine
 * 🇩🇪 Norderstedt, Germany
 * 🇫🇮 Outokumpu, Finland
 * 🇧🇾 Salihorsk, Belarus

 * 🇷🇺 Slantsevsky District, Russia
 * 🇸🇪 Staffanstorp, Sweden
 * 🇷🇺 Veliky Novgorod, Russia
 * 🇵🇱 Wyszków, Poland

title: Kohtla-Järve


text:
Peter Cook (architect)

Sir Peter Cook (born 22 October 1936) is an English architect, lecturer and writer on architectural subjects. He was a founder of Archigram, and was knighted in 2007 by the Queen for his services to architecture and teaching. He is also a Royal Academician and a Commandeur de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres of the French Republic. His achievements with Archigram were recognised by the Royal Institute of British Architects in 2004, when the group was awarded the Royal Gold Medal.

Early life and education
Cook was born in Southend-on-Sea, Essex and studied architecture at Bournemouth College of Art from 1953–58. He then entered the Architectural Association School of Architecture in London, graduating in 1960.

Career
Cook was a director of London's Institute of Contemporary Arts (1970-1972) and chair of architecture at the Bartlett School of Architecture at University College London (1990–2006), and has been director of Art Net in London and curator of the British Pavilion at the Venice Architecture Biennale. He continues to curate, organise and exhibit around the world: in Seoul, LA, Cyprus, the Centre Georges Pompidou, Design Museum, Louisiana Museum of Modern Art, as well as in castles, sheds and garages.

He is a Senior Fellow of the Royal College of Art, London. Cook's professorships include those of the Royal Academy, University College, London and the Hochschule fur Bildende Kunste (Städelschule) in Frankfurt-Main, Germany.

Cook has built in Osaka, Nagoya, Berlin and Madrid. However it was construction of his arts building in 2003, the Kunsthaus Graz (aka 'The Friendly Alien') in Graz, Austria (with Colin Fournier), that brought his work to a wider public.

He practiced from 2007 to 2019 with Gavin Robotham at CRAB (Cook Robotham Architectural Bureau Ltd). In 2013 he completed the Vienna University of Economics and Business's new law faculty and Australia's newest school of architecture, the Abedian School of Architecture at Bond University on the Gold Coast.

Cook was awarded a knighthood in the Queen's 2007 Birthday Honours List, for services to architecture.

His first building in the UK, a new drawing studio at the Arts University Bournemouth was opened by Zaha Hadid in March 2016. He also built the innovation studio at the Arts University Bournemouth, which was opened by Odile Decq in 2021.

Cook currently practices with Erlend Blakstad Haffner and Branko Belaćević at CHAP (Cook Haffner Architecture Platform Ltd). CHAP has offices in London, Belgrade and Oslo.

Awards and honours

 * 1960 – Henry Florence Student A.A. (Building Centre research Scholar)
 * 1961 – Piccadilly Circus competition (Mention)
 * 1962 – Gas Council House Design (First Prize)
 * 1965 – Selected as one of "Young British Designers" Sunday Times exhibition
 * 1996 – Jean Tschumi Medal, International Union of Architects
 * 1969 – Grant awarded by Graham Foundation, Chicago, for Instant City
 * 2002 – Annie Spink Award, jointly awarded to David Greene (for contribution to architectural education) by the RIBA
 * 2002 – Royal Gold Medal (with Archigram) by RIBA
 * 2003 – Commandeur de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres of the France Republic
 * 2004 – Finalist for Stirling Prize for Kunsthaus Graz (with Colin Fournier)
 * 2007 – Knighted in Queen's Honours' list (for services in architecture)
 * 2008 – Senior Fellow of the Royal College of Art, London
 * 2010 – Mario Pani Award for Architecture, Mexico City
 * 2010 – Honorary Doctorate of Technology, Lund University, Sweden

Success in architectural competitions

 * 1970 – Monte Carlo Entertainments Centre (with Archigram)
 * 1990 – Solar Housing, Landstuhl, Germany (with Christine Hawley)
 * 1992 – Museum of Antiquities, Austria (with Christine Hawley)
 * 2000 – Kunsthaus Graz (with Colin Fournier)
 * 2006 – New Theatre Verbania, Italy (with Gavin Robotham)
 * 2009 – Faculty of Law (D3) and Central Administration (AD), Vienna Business and Economics University (with Gavin Robotham)
 * 2010 – 2nd prize in the Taiwan Tower international competition (with Gavin Robotham)
 * 2011 – Soheil Abedian School of Architecture, Bond University on the Gold Coast, Australia (with Gavin Robotham and Brit Andresen)
 * 2013 – Finalist in the National Stadium of Israel (CRAB + POPULOUS)
 * 2013 – Finalist in the Gold Coast Cultural Precinct

Current appointments

 * Professor Emeritus at University College London
 * Professor of Architecture at the Royal Academy of Arts
 * Life Professor at the Hochschule fur Bildende Kunste (Städelschule) Frankfurt-Main
 * Senior Fellow of the Royal College of Art, London
 * Honorary Fellow of the Arts University Bournemouth
 * Member of the Hessische Architektenkammer
 * Member of the RIBA, Architects Registration Board (ARB)
 * Fellow of University College London

Exhibitions

 * Archigram exhibition – 1994 onwards: Vienna, Paris, New York, London, Pasadena, Chicago, Milan, Hamburg, Seoul, Mito, Taipei, Winnipeg, Zurich, Cracow, Zaragoza, Brussels, Rotterdam.
 * Curator of Venice Biennale of Architecture British Pavilion 2004, Cyprus Pavilion 2006
 * Personal exhibitions – various dates: Los Angeles, Tokyo, Oslo, Berlin, Osaka, Frankfurt,

Publications

 * 1967 – Architecture: Action and Plan. London: Studio Vista.
 * 1970 – Experimental Architecture. London/New York: Studio Vista/Universal Books.
 * 1972 – Archigram. London: Studio Vista/Reinhold, Birkhauser
 * 1975 – Melting Architecture. London: Peter Cook, (published to accompany Art Net exhibition).
 * 1976 – Art Net The Rally: Forty London Architects. London: Art Net/Peter Cook, (published to accompany Art Net exhibition).
 * 1976 – Arcadia: The Search for the Perfect Suburb. London: Art Net/Peter Cook.
 * 1980 – Six Houses (with Christine Hawley). London: AA Publications, (published to accompany exhibition at the Architectural Association).
 * 1983 – Los Angeles Now (with Barbara Goldstein). London: AA Publications, (published to accompany exhibition at the Architectural Association).
 * 1985 – Peter Cook – 21 Years, 21 Ideas. Chrisine Hawley; foreword by Reyner Banham. Architectural Association exhibition catalogue. London: AA Publications.
 * 1985 – Lebbeus Woods (editor; with Olive Brown); Architectural Association exhibition catalogue. London: AA Publications, 1985.
 * 1987 – Cities (with Christine Hawley); exhibition catalogue. London: Fisher Fine Arts.
 * 1989 – Peter Cook 1961–89. A+U.
 * 1991 – New Spirit in Architecture (with Rosie Llewellyn-Jones). New York: Rizzoli.
 * 1993 – Six Conversations. London: Academy Editions, Architectural Monographs Special Issue, No. 28.
 * 1996 – Primer. London: Academy Editions.
 * 1999 – Archigram. London/New York: Princeton Architectural Press (with Japanese, German, and Chinese translations)
 * 1999 – Zvi Hecker, House of the Book (contributor, with John Hedjuk and Helene Binet). . London: Black Dog.
 * 1999 – The Power of Contemporary Architecture (with Neil Spiller). London: Academy Editions.
 * 2000 – Bartlett Book of Ideas. London: Bartlett School of Architecture.
 * 2001 – The Paradox of Contemporary Architecture (contributor). Chichester: Wiley-Academy.
 * 2003 – The City, Seen As A Garden Of Ideas. New York: Monacelli.
 * 2008 – Drawing: The Motive Force of Architecture. Chichester: Wiley. 2nd edition publiished 2014.
 * 2016 – Architecture Workbook: Design through Motive. Chichester: Wiley.
 * 2021 – Lives in Architecture: Peter Cook. London: RIBA Publishing.

title: Peter Cook (architect)


text: Talk:Isolobal principle

title: Talk:Isolobal principle


text:
Talk:Qoph

Persian?
I've noticed that ق is generally transliterated from farsi texts as "g". Is there any reference for that? --Soman (talk) 14:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Hi. Qoph may be transliterated from Persian as "g", because in standard western Persian (Tehran dialect) Qoph is pronounced like غ "ghayn". Einstein92 (talk) 15:45, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Qoph in Gulf Arabic
It is true that sometimes Qoph is pronounced [dʒ] in Gulf Arabic, but that is not very frequent. As I know it Qoph is mostly pronounced [g] in Gulf Arabic. Einstein92 (talk) 15:45, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

The name of this page (and all references to this hebrew letter) should be changed, to "KOF"
The standard spelling of the name of this hebrew letter, in America, at at least (that is, for the majority of the readers of this english language wikipedia), is "KOF" -- not "qoph."

This page should not have have a jewish classification, if it has arabic content and spelling, for the name of this letter. The name of this page should be changed [and the arabic content removed], or the page should be reclassified under an arabic language portal -- with a separate, new page created, for the hebrew spelling of the name of this letter. For any American struggling to learn Hebrew, articles like these will confuse them, because this is wrong, according to what most of them are taught. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saywhat2012 (talk • contribs) 20:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Qoph


text:
Talk:Antiope (mother of Amphion)

"Satyr Zeus"
Someone must have noted in print what seems so obvious, that the figure of Zeus here is an Olympian intrusion in this archaic story of the successful mating of a satyr with Antiope. Satyrs in Olympian myth are not generally successful, are they: the insertion that the "satyr was really Zeus" brought the old Boeotian mytheme into line. If I had a citation, I'd add this. But I don't. Wise readers of Wikipedia read the Talkpages too.--Wetman (talk) 06:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Rape victim? "[Odysseus saw the shades of heroines in the underworld :] I saw Antiope, the daughter of Asopos (Asopus); it was her pride to have slept in the arms of Zeus himself. She bore two sons, Amphion and Zethos (Zethus), primal founders of Thebes of the seven gates; they added walls to the spacious city because without them they could not hold it as their dwelling."Homer, Odyssey 11. 260

Antiope herself BOASTED she had slept with Zeus. Why is she listed as a rape victim? Doesn't her own voice matter?

title: Talk:Antiope (mother of Amphion)


text:
El Puente del Papa

El puente del Papa (The Pope's Bridge) is a bridge located in Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico, across the usually dry Río Santa Catarina. It took its name when Pope John Paul II offered a Catholic mass over the bridge.

A flea market by the same name used to install itself under the bridge during weekends, but after hurricane "Alex" struck the city, among many things, there was a shift in the way traffic was directed and the flea market ceased to exist.

Before the Pope John Paul II visited Monterrey, the bridge was called "Puente San Luisito" (St. Little Louis' Bridge), as it connected the "San Luisito" neighborhood, (today, Independencia neighborhood) with Monterrey Downtown, across the Santa Catarina River. The name of "Puente San Luisito" was the name of the bridge for over a century, and in just 20 years, it has been completely forgotten.

title: El Puente del Papa


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WorkingMansSpaceParty

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. -- AllyUnion (talk) 08:36, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

WorkingMansSpaceParty
No evidence this is anything other than one grumpy old man with a collection of science fiction books. sjorford// 22:00, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * delete JoJan 06:27, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. One man party, apparently. jni 14:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - let them leave for outer space and leave the Wiki free of this drivel! Brookie 19:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text: User talk:24.116.118.92

title: User talk:24.116.118.92


text:
Talk:Jakob Bartsch

Which constellations??
Template:ConstellationsByBartsch says Camelopardalis and Monoceros, text says so too, but also Crux and Reticulum, which is contradicted by the articles on Crux and Reticulum, and Template:ConstellationsRoyerAltered which says Augustin Royer. See User:Rursus/ObsConst! Rursus declamavi;  19:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

 * No, both these constellations were created by Petrus Plancius. Now I'll remove the template. ... said: Rursus ( m bork³ ) 15:52, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jakob Bartsch


text:
Talk:Wally George

Fair use rationale for Image:Wallygeorge.jpg
Image:Wallygeorge.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Saint Wally
This is just hagiography. Can someone edit to add perspective? I'm from SoCal and I recall the man's TV persona very differently. Perhaps someone can see how "Wally" fits in as a precursor to some of the Fox News presenters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.38.66 (talk) 21:25, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

 * I've cleaned up the text. Although it all seems verifiable enough, there's a need for more citations. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:12, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Debtralynne?
Is that a typo for "Debralynne" by any chance? David Marjanović (talk) 18:07, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Wally George


text:
Gary Scavone

Gary Paul Scavone is a computer music researcher and musician.

Scavone is currently an associate professor of music technology at McGill University. Previously, Scavone directed the Center for Computer Research in Music and Acoustics at Stanford University. He, along with Perry Cook, authored the Synthesis Toolkit (STK). After conducting extensive research into the digital modeling of woodwind instruments (the subject of his doctoral dissertation), Scavone turned to the electronic synthesis of such instruments.

Scavone plays saxophone. He studied classical saxophone at the Conservatoire National de Région de Bordeaux, France, with Jean-Marie Londeix in 1989, sponsored by a Fulbright scholarship. In the summers of 1987, 1988 and 1990 he played as a street musician in almost every major European capital together with Dan Gordon.

title: Gary Scavone


text:
DVHS

DVHS may refer to:

 * D-VHS, digital video system
 * Del Valle High School (El Paso, Texas)
 * Del Valle High School (Travis County, Texas)
 * Deer Valley High School (Glendale, Arizona)
 * Delaware Valley High School (public school)
 * Delaware Valley High School (private school)
 * Desert Vista High School
 * Dougherty Valley High School
 * Leonardo da Vinci High School

title: DVHS


text:
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh

The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh is a 1977 American animated musical anthology fantasy film produced by Walt Disney Productions and distributed by Buena Vista Distribution. It was first released on a double bill with The Littlest Horse Thieves on March 11, 1977.

Its characters have spawned a franchise of various sequels and television programs, clothing, books, toys, and an attraction of the same name at Disneyland, Walt Disney World, and Hong Kong Disneyland in addition to Pooh's Hunny Hunt in Tokyo Disneyland.

Plot
The film joins three previously released Winnie-the-Pooh animated featurettes based on the original A. A. Milne and E. H. Shepard sources, with extra bridging material of Pooh interracting with the Narrator to introduce the three stories: Winnie the Pooh and the Honey Tree (1966), Winnie the Pooh and the Blustery Day (1968), and Winnie the Pooh and Tigger Too (1974).

A short scene was added to bring the film to a close; originally made during the production of Blustery Day (based on the presence of Jon Walmsley as Christopher Robin), and based on the final chapter of The House at Pooh Corner, Christopher Robin must leave behind the Hundred Acre Wood to start school. The Narrator concludes that wherever Christopher Robin goes, Pooh will always be waiting.

Later featurette
Six years after the release of The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, Disney commissioned a fourth featurette based on the stories. Winnie the Pooh and a Day for Eeyore premiered in theaters on March 11, 1983, but was not originally connected to the preceding films in any manner. It has since been added to home video releases of The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh.

Voice cast

 * Sterling Holloway as Winnie the Pooh
 * Bruce Reitherman, Jon Walmsley and Timothy Turner as Christopher Robin
 * John Fiedler as Piglet
 * Ralph Wright as Eeyore
 * Clint Howard and Dori Whitaker as Roo
 * Barbara Luddy as Kanga
 * Paul Winchell as Tigger
 * Junius Matthews as Rabbit
 * Hal Smith as Owl
 * Howard Morris as Gopher
 * Sebastian Cabot as The Narrator

Production
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh was the last film in the Disney canon in which Walt Disney had personal involvement, since one of the shorts (Winnie the Pooh and the Honey Tree) was released during his lifetime and he was involved in the production of Blustery Day. It was always Walt Disney's intention to create a feature film, but he decided to make shorts instead — after production had begun — to familiarize U.S. audiences with the characters. All three shorts, as well as future feature films, boast classic songs by the Sherman Brothers including "Winnie the Pooh" and "The Wonderful Thing About Tiggers".

The character Gopher, which does not appear in the Milne stories, was created because Disney wanted an all-American character that could appeal to the children, and also add an element of comedy.

For the character Piglet, hand gestures and other movements were used by the animators to create expressiveness, since he (and Pooh) had the appearance of dolls or stuffed animals with relatively simple button eyes. The scene where Rabbit deals with Pooh's rump being part of the "decor of his home" was not in the original book, but was reportedly contemplated by Disney when he first read the book.

Reception
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh holds a unanimous critic approval rating of on Rotten Tomatoes based on 18 reviews, with an average of. The website's critical consensus reads "Perhaps the most faithful of Disney's literary adaptations, this cute, charming collection of episodes captures the spirit of A.A. Milne's classic stories." Film critic Leonard Maltin called the original Pooh featurettes "gems"; he also noted that the artwork resembles the book illustrations and that the particular length of these featurettes meant that the filmmakers did not have to "compress or protract their script."

Ruth Hill Viguers, however, when writing in A Critical History of Children’s Literature during the 1960s, mentioned Disney's Winnie the Pooh along with several other Disney adaptations as having "destroyed the integrity of the original books".

The film is recognized by American Film Institute in these lists:
 * 2008: AFI's 10 Top 10:
 * Nominated Animation Film

Home media
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh was first released on VHS, Betamax, CED videorecord, and laserdisc on August 15, 1981. In 1996, it was re-released on VHS as part of the Walt Disney Masterpiece Collection series and included video footage of the making which was shown before the movie starts (as did the first UK VHS release in 1997). It was released on DVD for the first time in 2002 as a 25th Anniversary Edition, with digitally restored picture and sound. The individual shorts had also been released on their own on VHS in the 1990s.

The 25th-anniversary edition DVD includes, among other bonus features: "The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh: The Story Behind the Masterpiece", which documents the history of the books and their initial film adaptations; the short Winnie the Pooh and a Day for Eeyore (1983); and interviews with animators Ollie Johnston, Frank Thomas, and Burny Mattinson, as well as the Sherman Brothers, Paul Winchell, and others. Digital Media FX reviewer Shannon Muir stated that the audio and video quality of the film on this DVD was very high.

The "Friendship Edition" DVD was released on June 19, 2007. All of the special features from the previous "25th Anniversary Edition" DVD were recycled, with the only new addition being an episode of Playhouse Disney's computer-animated series My Friends Tigger & Pooh. The DVD re-release coincides with the 30th anniversary of the release of the film.

The Blu-ray version was released for the first time along with the third DVD release on August 27, 2013. The bonus features included a Mini Adventures of Winnie the Pooh segment, "Geniuses" and the only bonus feature that was kept from the previous DVD releases was the "Winnie the Pooh" theme song music video performed by Carly Simon.

title: The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh


text:
Talk:Hubble Origins Probe

to do
The article implies the arguments for this hubble-lite was that Hubble was not going to be serviced. But, Hubble was serviced in May 2009, so, I suggest, this article should be up-dated to reflect that. Geo Swan (talk) 13:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Hubble Origins Probe


text:
Talk:Tenebrae

From software article
The following text was incorrectly in Tenebrae (software):

 * The Office of Tenebrae or Tenebræ is the name of prayer services conducted in the Catholic Church on Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday, in preparation for the celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus, or Easter. The word means "shadows." It is also observed in the Anglican and Episcopal Churches as a single office during Holy Week, usually on the Wednesday of Holy Week.  The chief feature of this office is the successive extinguishing of candles until the church is completely dark.

 * The Office of Tenebrae in the Episcopal Church

--Mrwojo 14:03, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article states that Holy Communion is never served at Tenebrae services. However, this service is most commonly held on Maundy Thursday, which commemorates Jesus's Last Supper with his disciples, so wouldn't that make it almost required to hold Holy Communion at this service, at least when it is held on Maundy Thursday? I'm speaking from experience - my UCC church holds a Tenebrae service on Maundy Thursday with communion, so I think that the "never" part is a bit strong, but I wanted input before I go ahead and change it. Can someone clear this up? Thoroughbred Phoenix 20:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In the Roman Catholic tradition (prior to the reform of the Holy Week services in, I think, 1956) the Mass of the Lord's Supper was held in the morning - for reasons (related to the Eucharistic fast) which no longer apply. Tenebrae was celebrated in the late afternoon and was the Matins of Good Friday, brought forward to the Thursday evening. If your church doesn't observe those traditions then the statement that Holy Communion is never given at Tenebrae doesn't apply. Alec.brady (talk) 10:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Move
I'm suggesting we might want to move this page from it's current namespace of "Tenebrae (service)" to the namespace "Tenebrae (liturgical)". The term "service" is vague and does not denote the specifically religious subject of the article. Not only would "Tenebrae (liturgical)" also make it clear that this is an article on a religious subject, it also follows the usual naming convention for other Christian liturgical terms. For example, the Mass is Mass (liturgy) and octave is Octave (liturgical). Dgf32 (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

present status in Catholic churches
Someone from ip 71.253.52.145 (since you dont have an account yet I can only ask questions here) added this, just removed by another editor:

...and it continues to be observed at the University of Notre Dame (and possibly other traditional Catholic churches),...

which makes me wonder if this is under some indult and whether indeed a few non-'schismatic' Catholics might still be able to observe tenebrae (I would love to find a loophole for the parish I work at!). What are the conditions at ND? Sparafucil (talk) 01:28, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

 * It is also celebrated at St John Vianney Seminary, in the Archdiocese of Denver. I will change the article to reflect this, as there is no ref for it being defunct. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * In my humble opinion, the statement that the liturgical celebration of this services is no longer part of the liturgy is not correct. The form and the time changed with the reform of the Holy Week ceremonies by Pope Pius XII, but the Book of hours indicates solemn matutins at Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Good Saturday. In Germany, these are called Karmetten.--Turris Davidica (talk) 10:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The German Wikipedia implicitly says Karmetten is celebrated in the morning: it says tht Karmetten is celebrated on Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday, not on the eves of those days (the evenings of Wednesday, Thursday and Friday). Perhaps, like the German Karmetten, the other cases mentioned above also refer to morning celebrations in daylight of the Liturgy of the Hours, not to anticipated celebrations after dark (= tenebrae), as was the custom, when, before Pius XII's change, Mass, even the Easter Vigil Mass was also anticipated to the mornings.  Lima (talk) 17:17, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Catholics may take part in them if they find some. This is not Holy Mass which is ruled by the ritual. Even if some ritual may have disappeared from the Ritual or from anywhere else, that does not lead to an acceptable form of devotion being illegalized.--91.34.251.64 (talk) 17:59, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Anglican practices
I'm unclear on Episcopal observances and whether they differ from Anglo-catholic. The external link shows a Wednesday service identical to that of the Liber usualis, which suggests there is nothing particularly protestant about them. In any case the header "Roman Catholic" ought to be "catholic" to reflect the lead paragraph, or perhaps even "traditional". Sparafucil (talk) 02:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

 * "Episcopalian" is a denomination. "Anglo-Catholic" is not - it defines the practices of a subset of Episcopalians and Anglicans.  Episcopal and Anglo-Catholic observances might NOT differ.  Many Anglo-Catholics are Episcopalians.  The Church of St. Mary the Virgin, in NYCs Times Square, is called "The Cathedral of Anglo-Catholicism" and is an Episcopal Church. Carlo (talk) 04:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I was thinking of US churches that are outside of ECUSA, some of whom loosely so call themselves. The problem is: how does one go about referencing the uses of Anglicans? My BCP makes no provision for a Wed. tenebrae (or any other), nor does The Anglican Use Gradual (external link to lulu blocked). Sparafucil (talk) 21:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Episcopalian Tenebrae services are based on the Book of Occasional Services, which replaced the 1940 "Book of Offices" in 1979 and has been updated from time to time since then. I don't know about Tenebrae in other Anglican churches, but would guess that it probably exists in at least some of them.--Bhuck (talk) 11:19, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Time of day
Lima made the following change, regarding the post-1970 Matins and Lauds:
 * These morning celebrations, not being celebrated in the dark, are of course not named "Tenebrae."

This is an incorrect statement on two counts: (1) The combined office may still indeed be celebrated (and in some places still is celebrated) just prior to sunrise, which means that the office would be just as much in darkness as an evening service. (2) The name or ceremonies need not be forfeited merely because there is light outside the church. The 1886 Caeremoniale Episcoporum assigned Tenebrae to 3:00 p.m. in the afternoon, which obviously cannot even pretend to be dusk. And even though "Tenebrae" after 1955 was to be celebrated in the early morning, it retained its name and ceremonies through the 1962 typical edition.

Hence I have restored my prior factual statement: "although the celebration is no longer officially named "Tenebrae."" Echevalier (talk) 22:47, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Echevalier is, of course, right about the early morning service. And I remember once reading that the original meaning of the gradual extinguishing of the lights was that, before being anticipated to the previous afternoon or evening, Matins and Lauds were celebrated in the early hours of the day and, as the day dawned, there was a steadily decreasing need for lights.  (I am not saying that that interpretation was right.  But maybe it was.)
 * I regret that I made a further edit to that section of the article before noticing this edit to the Talk page. I am glad to see that, in spite of that neglect on my part, I did not reinsert my observation about the inappropriateness of calling a morning service "Tenebrae".  Although, come to think of it, I do consider it inappropriate, since a morning service, even an early morning one, would be better called Dawning than Darkness.
 * I would be grateful if Echevalier would kindly quote the reference to "Tenebrae" in the pre-1970 edition of the Roman Breviary. I was presuming - wrongly, as I now suppose - that the Tenebrae ceremonies were not dealt with in the Breviary itself, but only in other books.  I was unable to find a mention of the ceremonies in the Google Books reproductions of the Breviary (my fault, I suppose), and I do not expect to have access to my own old copy for the next three months.  So I would be very interested in knowing how exactly the Roman Breviary did speak about Tenebrae in any revision (not just reprinting) of the Breviary later than 1955 but earlier than 1970.  I would be very interested even in knowing exactly how the Breviary spoke of Tenebrae before 1955.  Lima (talk) 08:30, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Vince Colletta
Thanks you for your response and, yes, that was a great quote!

I will be sure to contact Vanguard Press, however, John Morrow has announced that they are planning a Colletta book for 2010 or 2011. Of course it won't be nearly as complete in either biographical details, number of assembled quotes or subject photographs as mine. And with John Morrow, you never know, he may be more interested in publishing a book dealing with controversies than one of substance.

Franklin222 (talk) 03:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)Franklin222

Tenebrae
In many mystical circles, tenebrae, Latin for darkness, is used to refer to what St. John of the Cross referred to as the Dark Night of the Soul. This is a period understood by many in many different ways, but it is basically a time when one must face the darkness within himself, understand it, and overcome it. Those who tread a Shamanic Path refer to this as the Shaman's Death. There are many periods of this in one's Spiritual growth, and those who come out on the positive side of it are the Spiritual giants, whether they are known or not.

Charles Henry Kropf, MSS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.164.121 (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Tenebrae in Eastern Catholic Churches
Does (or: did) a service called "Tenebrae" exist in Eastern Catholic Churches? --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:51, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Definition (Catholic Church use)
In A Modern Catholic Dictionary John Hardon defines Tenebrae as: "The public singing of part of the Divine Office, on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday evenings of Holy Week, anticipating Matins and Lauds of Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday. A custom that went back centuries, it acquired the name because of the mourning ritual surrounding the ceremony, which included a triangular stand with fifteen candles. These were put out one by one until, after the last candle was extinguished, a prayer was said in darkness, one candle was lighted, and the assembly dispersed in silence."

In The Catholic Encyclopedia Herbert Thurston says: "Tenebræ is the name given to the service of Matins and Lauds belonging to the last three days of Holy Week. This service ... is to be anticipated and it should be sung shortly after Compline ... about three p.m. on the eve of the day to which it belongs. ... Lauds follow immediately on Matins, which in this occasion terminate with the close of day".

Thus anticipation to the previous day of the Matins and Lauds of Thursday, Friday and Saturday is part of the specification of the Tenebrae service. Service books (of pre-Pius XII times), such as Officium Hebdomadae Sanctae (Venice 1765), p. 105, also insist on the anticipation to the previous day. "With the prohibition of the anticipation of Matins and Lauds, the practice was suppressed following the Holy Week reforms" (James Monti, The Week of Salvation); "The evening service of Tenebrae, in which the Matins and Lauds of Thursday, Friday, and Saturday were chanted on the preceding evenings, is suppressed" (Frederick McManus, The Rites of Holy Week in the Extraordinary Form); cf. Peter M.J. Stravinskas, The Catholic Answer Book, p. 227.

No official book of the Catholic liturgy now speaks of extinguishing candles in the course of the (morning) recitation of Matins and Lauds of Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday, even in the 1961 ("extraordinary") form. Not even the 1988 document Paschalis solemnitatis of the Congregation for Divine Worship, which recommends "communal celebration of the Office of Readings and Morning Prayer on Good Friday and Holy Saturday", an Office that it says was formerly called "Tenebrae". Lúnasa (talk) 13:45, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

An accumulation of minutiae from primary sources does not make a balanced Wikipedia article
I'm trying to fathom what you're trying to accomplish. I can't up till now. Please explain yourself, that might help. This article is not about every minute change in the Tenebrae liturgy that ever took place: it gives a broad overview of what this service was like (so rather about the constants of its century-long history), until it was largely abandoned around the time of the Second Vatican Council. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:07, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think that suppression of Tenebrae some years before the Second Vatican Council (cf. supra) was a "minute change".  What needs explaining is an attachment to inaccuracies that brooks no correction.  Lúnasa (talk) 18:20, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Re. "suppression" – incorrect;
 * Re. "minute change" – incorrect: major changes before the second Vatican Council are indicated in the "pre-Vatican II" section. So still not knowing what you are trying to accomplish. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:25, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, you quote a lot of things in the previous section, however without clearly stating date and origin of these quotes: I found it unreadable. An accumulation of confusing minutiae. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:35, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Monti, McManus and Stravinskas say Tenebrae was suppressed in the 1950s. Maybe others too: try Googling the two words "Tenebrae" and "suppressed".  Do any sources say it wasn't suppressed?  When anticipating Lauds of Thursday, Friday and Saturday of Holy Week was totally prohibited and anticipating Matins almost completely, Tenebrae as understood by the Catholic Church* and as described in the article ceased.
 * * Sourced definitions are given above, because excluded from the article.
 * Matins and Lauds of those days are now said in the morning, either privately or in common, Common celebration is recommended but, the Divine Worship Congregation stated, it is not called Tenebrae, and of course candles are not incongruously extinguished as the day grows yet brighter.  Private initiative may invent other ceremonies and call them Tenebrae, but they are not what the Catholic Church calls Tenebrae, nor are they what the article describes as Catholic Church Tenebrae.  Lúnasa (talk) 07:43, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, err, no: McManus implies that Tenebrae was no longer an evening service after the 1955 reform – of course Matins and Lauds (whether or not called "Tenebrae" for Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday) were not suppressed: they were restored to the usual times for Matins and Lauds, i.e. as on every other day of the year, that is the morning of the day to which they belong instead of on the previous day where they didn't belong (with a partial exception for the Maundy Thursday service). The 1955 document says only one thing about the liturgical sequence of these Matins and Lauds, that is that Psalm 50 is suppressed at the end of the service. The 1955 document doesn't abolish the 15-candles ceremonial aspect, nor the trepidus (it doesn't mention any change in that respect for the Tenebrae/Matins–Lauds service). Neither does the 1955 papal document say that the Matins and Lauds on these three days can no longer be called Tenebrae. So, what isn't changed by the document remains in principle unchanged. McManus has a few pages on the name-changes for ceremonies following from the 1955 papal document: no name change involving the Matins and Lauds a.k.a. Tenebrae.
 * The liturgical sequence of the services for Matins and Lauds on Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday was only modified beyond recognition of what is in the "pre-Vatican II" table by the 1970 replacement of the Breviary by the Liturgy of the Hours. That was one of many Vatican II-related liturgical reforms. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:19, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Withdrawal
It's too hot here, and I withdraw. I leave Francis Schonken with, for instance, the idea that for the Catholic Church Tenebrae is Matins and Lauds of three particular days in the year no matter when celebrated (rather than being "the evening service") and that it was not suppressed pre-Vatican II. I leave myself with, for instance, the idea that Tenebrae, when it existed, concerned only a part of the Catholic Church (not the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites nor the Eastern Catholic Churches) and that the Breviarium Romanum of Typis Polyglottis Vaticanis, which was issued with the decree Congruum erat omnino, post novum rubricarum corpus ... of 5 April 1961 (and which I have before me) is of 1961. Lúnasa (talk) 17:58, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I was wondering whether, rubrics aside, in your 1961 Latin Breviary the Antiphons, Psalms (apart from the last Miserere Psalm), Versicles, Lessons, Responsories, Canticles and concluding Prayer of the Matins and Lauds for Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday are still the same (and in the same order) as listed in the table at Tenebrae? I'd be happy to see your answer. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:48, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Also is this the Breviarium Romanum your are talking of: ?
 * I'm back. I don't know for how long.
 * The answer to your last question is yes.
 * On the first question, apart from abandonment of the use of the letter J for consonantal Latin I, the only differences I notice are in Lauds. As the third psalm, the one before the Old Testament canticle, you give for all three days "Psalms 62 and 66 (Psalm 62 − Psalm 66)", which, if the dash means what it usually means, looks self-contradictory. As the fifth psalm you give, again for all three days, Psalms 148, 149 and 150 (Psalms 148−150), with no self-contradiction. I can't help wondering if these were the psalms used before the Reform of the Roman Breviary by Pope Pius X, not those "before liturgical reforms in the wake of Vatican II", but I leave the checking to you. In the 1961 Breviary (it is 1961), the psalms are those in the second schema for the corresponding day of the week in the Pius X revision. On Thursday, Psalms 35 and 146; on Friday 84 and 147; on Saturday 63 and 150. "A porte inferi" is quite obviously a mistyping for "a porta inferi".  Is "Dum conturbata ..." as antiphon for the Canticle of Habacuc another typing error?  What the 1961 Breviary has, "Cum conturbata ...", perhaps makes somewhat better sense.  Lúnasa (talk) 20:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Anachronism
If unmotivated reverting is what's used to preserve presentation, as the pre-Vatican II situation, of the situation that existed forty years before the 1913 reform of the Roman Breviary by Pope Pius X, withdrawal is probably again the best policy. Lúnasa (talk) 19:42, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for the unEnglish "unmotivated". (I had been writing in another language just before.) In English I should have written "unexplained". I have decided to try to force an explanation of what reasons (motives) can be invoked for simply reverting corrections of errors that include the false presentation of the pre-1913 arrangement as that of the "Pre-Vatican II Breviary", candles quenched before, instead of at ([https://archive.org/stream/completeofficeh00churgoog#page/n178/mode/2up Benziger, p. 184), the repetition of the antiphons, the Christus factus est sung only in part even in the Holy Saturday Lauds... Lúnasa (talk) 13:55, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Re. "I have decided to try to force ": trying to "force" is not the right approach imho. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:07, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Francis, I was relying on the force of courtesy and fairness to produce an explanation of why what was (and is again) presented as the pre-Vatican II arrangement is instead that of the 1870s (the time of the cited sources), in spite of Pius X's alterations in Divino afflatu of 1 November 1911, in effect optionally already at the 1912 Triduum Sacrum and obligatorily from 1913 on. Unfortunately the force I relied on has met some unspecified counter-force. You have again reverted to the false presentation with no more explanation than that you think a table of the pre-Vatican II arrangement "messes with" a table of the arrangement of a century earlier. (In my first attempt, along with the more recent table, I gave the old table, indicating that it was of the pre-1913 situation. You reverted that too.) So I appeal again to the sense of courtesy and fairness that you surely have to explain why you want the article to give an incorrect presentation of the pre-Vatican II arrangement.  Lúnasa (talk) 19:38, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Again, "An accumulation of minutiae from primary sources does not make a balanced Wikipedia article" --Francis Schonken (talk) 04:49, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Falsehood makes a balanced article? Lúnasa (talk) 05:33, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 1870s is neither after nor during "liturgical reforms in the wake of Vatican II", so it is before those reforms; The minutiae of Divino afflatu (1911) are ... minutiae of a primary source. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:05, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The table is headed "Tenebrae (Pre–Vatican II Breviary)".
 * Pre-World War I Belgium is neither after nor during the Second World War, but presenting it as "Pre-World War II Belgium" would be a falsehood.
 * I again appeal to the sense of courtesy and fairness that you surely have. Lúnasa (talk) 06:43, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * This picture shows the pre WWII Dresden Frauenkirche, regardless of whether that picture was taken before or after WWI. For that church a decisive "change" took place during WWII (and then again, half a century later). For the *structure* of the Tenebrae service, the post-Vatican II changes to the breviary were more decisive than anything that happened before or after (including the marginalising of the service after 1955): some of the earlier changes (most of which didn't even modify the *structure* of the service) can be mentioned, but again, we're looking rather for the *constants* (over the many centuries that the service was widely spread in Catholicism) than minute changes and limited revivals after its heydays were over. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:11, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * What you now present as "Tenebrae (Pre–Vatican II Breviary)" is even more false than before. Regarding the "constants" you speak of, your (self-contradictory) presentation of the third psalm at Lauds is not a constant, and does not correspond to the "Pre-Vatican II Breviary".  So too your presentation of the fifth psalm.  So too your presentation of the Christus factus est and the prayer on Holy Saturday.  For some of these falsehoods you have added footnotes that make explicit the contradiction between the heading of the table and the actual contents of the table, by showing that the table is not in fact of the pre-Vatican II Breviary, but of an earlier edition. Some of your footnotes are also false. The first antiphon in Lauds was never bereft of its psalm.  Lúnasa (talk) 09:43, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * A different psalm doesn't change the "structure", but as said: "some of the earlier changes (most of which didn't even modify the *structure* of the service) can be mentioned" – footnoted comments can be used for that, thus not overemphasising something that didn't fundamentally alter the structure. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:14, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The structure can be given and in fact is given in a single paragraph: "The structure of Tenebrae is ..." Your table, on the other hand, is overwhelmingly about the contents rather than the structure. The contents that it gives are not those normally associated with "the service before liturgical reforms in the wake of Vatican II", but are instead those of the 1870s, with footnotes with incorrect indications of later changes. The body of your table also indicates an error in the paragraph about the structure: before Pius X, Lauds had, if you consider the OT canticle the equivalent of a psalm, eight psalms, not five.  A different psalm doesn't change the structure, but a different number of psalms perhaps does.  Lúnasa (talk) 15:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Whatever the alleged problems, this wasn't helping. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:21, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, it gave sourced correct information, which you reverted without explanation (apart from, at a later stage, some would-be witticisms). There are proverbs about carrying water in a sieve and the like.  Wikipedia recommends not to feed certain people.  I should have taken the advice sooner.  Lúnasa (talk) 17:44, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Is, not was
I do not understand the past tense "was" in the first sentence of this article.

There is nothing 'past tense' about Tenebrae. It is still observed in numerous churches around the world, including normal, mainstream, Roman Catholic churches, not schismatics or 'indult' of any kind. I could give a list of churches that celebrate Tenebrae right here in New York. The article itself, once it moves past the badly written and confusing preface, is quite accurate. If the Roman Catholic church abridged the service and suggested or demanded celebrating it on the morning of the day instead of the evening of the day before, that is a change, not an abolition of the service itself.

In New York Anglican churches tend to celebrate an abbreviated form of Tenebrae, for Maundy Thursday, on Wednesday evening. So do Latin Mass Catholic parishes. Other Catholic churches tend to celebrate one or all three on the morning of the day itself--one normal, mainstream Catholic church in Morningside Heights chants tenebrae for Good Friday and Holy Saturday on the morning of those days--with the gradual extinguishing of candles (which is rather pointless at ten o'clock in the morning, but...)

Thus it does not make sense for the first sentence of this article to read "Tenebrae was" as if the thing had been formally abolished or as if nobody observed it today.

Nor does the second sentence of this article make any sense:

"In the 21st century the term is in practice applied also to a Holy Week evening service other than of matins and lauds accompanied by gradual extinguishing of candles or even to a service at other times of day commemorating the Passion of Jesus."

Such a passive voice sentence is more confusing that it's worth. There may well be people who do things other than matins and lauds and call them 'tenebrae', but who are they? All the churches I know that celebrate something they call tenebrae are indeed celebrating tenebrae: matins and lauds, whether according to the old or the new breviary, whether in full or abridged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.178 (talk) 21:34, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Links to psalms
I find the current links to psalms not helpful.
 * 1) The little notice to that the psalm numbering is the one in the Vulgate is too easily overlooked.
 * 2) When I click on a blue link in the table, I arrive at a moved page in the Latin source.
 * 3) The blue link is followed by an external link to Latin text and translation.

I suggest: --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:33, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Provide links to the psalm articles in Wikipedia, piped or not. Those are the numbers that most people will know, and most readers will not be helped by Latin anyway. These articles have a link to Latin text and translation in the lead (and if not yet, please add it, compare Psalm 70 (Psalmus 69).
 * 2) Place external links in the external section or remove.

 * Yes, a lot wrong there! I think 1) Roman numerals are less ambiguous, and masoretic numbering only confusing in the context of Tenebrae. 2) "most readers" would probably include those interested in sung Tenebrae, in Latin, so the vulgata Wikisource link needs updating (I'm not positive it is always the Latin Psalter used, though) 3) incipits should be employed to clarify which is which. So the first Psalm might look like:
 * Ps. LXVIII (69) Salvum me fac (Save me O Lord)
 * Sparafucil (talk) 23:13, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tenebrae


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