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Suttree

Suttree is a semi-autobiographical novel by Cormac McCarthy, published in 1979. Set in Knoxville, Tennessee, over a four-year period starting in 1950, the novel follows Cornelius Suttree, who has repudiated his former life of privilege to become a fisherman on the Tennessee River.

The novel has a fragmented structure with many flashbacks and shifts in grammatical person. Suttree has been compared to James Joyce's Ulysses and John Steinbeck's Cannery Row, and called "a doomed Huckleberry Finn" by Jerome Charyn. Suttree was written over a 20-year span and is a departure from McCarthy's previous novels, being much longer, more sprawling in structure, and perhaps his most humorous.

Plot summary
The novel begins with Suttree observing police as they pull a suicide victim from the river. Suttree is living alone in a houseboat, on the fringes of society on the Tennessee River, earning money by fishing for the occasional catfish. He has left a life of luxury, rejecting his parents' influence, and abandoning his wife and young son. A large cast of characters, largely composed of misfits and grotesques, is introduced, one of which is a dimwitted young man named Gene Harrogate, whom Suttree meets during a short stint in a work camp-style prison. Harrogate was sent to prison after being caught "violating" a farmer's watermelons. Suttree attempts to help Harrogate stay out of trouble after he is released, but this task proves to be in vain as Harrogate sets off on a series of misadventures, including using poisoned meat and a slingshot to kill bats ("flitter-mice" as Harrogate calls them) to earn a bounty on them, and using dynamite in an attempt to tunnel underneath the city and burgle the treasury. Other prominent characters are prostitutes, hermits, alcoholics, and an aged Geechee witch.

His relationships with women all come to bad ends. One prostitute-girlfriend terminates the relationship in a moment of madness, smashing up the inside of their new car. He becomes involved with a teenage girl from a destitute family, but awakens in the night to find her crushed to death by a landslide that falls on their homeless encampment. Prior to the beginning of the book, Suttree was also married to a woman he apparently met at university. He left his wife with a young son, who dies of an illness early on in the book. He watches the funeral from afar, and proceeds to bury the boy alone once the other mourners leave.

Towards the novel's end, Suttree falls ill with typhoid fever and suffers a lengthy hallucination. This occurs after a black friend of Suttree is killed in a fight with the police and Harrogate is arrested in a failed robbery attempt. In the end, he feels his identity as an individual is affirmed by his time living in destitution, and he leaves Knoxville, seeking a new life.

Reception
Novelist Nelson Algren argued that the novel was "a memorable American comedy by an original storyteller." Reviews by writers and literary critics such as Anatole Broyard, Jerome Charyn, Guy Davenport, and Shelby Foote were followed by the Times Literary Supplement review which saw the novel as "Faulknerian in its gentle wryness, and a freakish imaginative flair reminiscent of Flannery O'Connor." The profile writer and music journalist Stanley Booth observed that Suttree was "probably the funniest and most unbearably sad of McCarthy's books...which seem to me unsurpassed in American literature." Late in life, film critic Roger Ebert wrote, "I began to live through this desperate man's sad life."

title: Suttree


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Marius Valerianus

Marius Valerianus was a governor of Britannia Inferior, a province of Roman Britain between 221 and 223. He is known through three inscriptions he left at Chesters, Netherby and South Shields. Anthony Birley notes that these inscriptions are useful because "they illustrate the fact that the praetorian governor of the Lower province was responsible for the whole of the northern frontier of Roman Britain, from the North Sea to the western outpost north of Carlisle."

Although admitting that nothing more is known of his career, Birley notes E. Ritterling's suggestion that he may be the same man attested as a centurion in the Praetorian Guard, at some point not earlier than the reign of Septimus Severus. "The rise of such a man to senatorial rank, 'von der Pike', would not be a surprise during the reign of Elagabalus."

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Marius Valerianus


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Göreme

Göreme (Κόραμα) is a town (belde) in the Nevşehir District, Nevşehir Province in Central Anatolia, Turkey. Its population is 2,034 (2022). It is well known for its fairy chimneys (Turkish: peribacalar), eroded rock formations, many of which were hollowed out in the Middle Ages to create Christian churches, houses and underground cities. Göreme was formerly known as Korama, Matiana, Macan and Avcilar.

Göreme sits at the heart of a network of valleys filled with astonishing rock formations. Being a centre of early Christianity, it also has the most painted churches, as well as hermitages and monasteries, in Cappadocia.

Once an agricultural settlement, modern Göreme is best known for its flourishing tourism industry, in particular for its hot air balloon rides, and many boutique hotels created out of old cave homes, in addition to ecclesiastical structures connected to its early Christian heritage. The village sits within the Göreme National Park which was added to the UNESCO World Heritage List in 1985.

The nearest airports are Nevşehir Kapadokya Airport and Kayseri Airport. The village is also served by long-distance buses from all over Turkey.

Etymology
The name Korama was given by early Christians, with gor emi meaning 'you cannot see this place' in reference to the area serving as a hidden place of shelter during periods of persecution.

History
Goreme was an important centre of early Christianity. Very little is known about Göreme's history until modern times in part because it was a small settlement away from the more travelled main roads linking Kayseri to Konya and the Mediterranean coast to Aksaray. The village contains several pillared tombs believed to date back to Roman times. In Byzantine times what is now Göreme was actually two separate but adjacent villages: Korama (Greek: Κόραμα) where the modern Open Air Museum can be found, and Matiana/Macan (Μάτιανα) where the modern village is. The first written record of Matiana and Korama appears in the proceedings of the Council of Chalcedon in 451 which was attended by representatives of both the settlements. A Life of St Hieron, the patron saint of Göreme, written in the sixth century nevertheless refers to events in the third century and offers the first mention of villagers living in cave houses. Some of the simpler cave churches around the village date from the sixth and seventh centuries, others from the tenth and eleventh centuries which is also when many of the frescoes were painted.

In 1796, the Mehmet Paşa Konağı (Mehmet Paşa Mansion) was constructed in Göreme, although the true name of the original owner is unknown. The walls of its selamlık (men's room) and haremlik (women's room) are completely covered with murals, those in the men's room featuring images of Constantinople mosques and landscapes, those in the women's room more domestic.

The first Westerner writer to leave an account – and drawing – of Göreme was the French archaeologist Charles Texier who passed through in the 1830s. In a book based on his travels in 1837 Sir William Hamilton referred to the chapel of St Hieron and the so-called Roma Kalesi (Roman Castle) in Göreme.

The native Cappadocian Greek inhabitants relocated to Greece following the 1923 Population exchange.

Troglodytism
The malleable nature of the rocks and cones in and around Göreme has meant that people have carved out cave homes here from at least the third century (and probably from long before). The earliest such homes were probably simple caves but by the 20th century most of the houses (except those in single cones) had stone rooms built in front of the caves for families to live in while the caves were relegated to stabling and storage. The houses were designed to suit a place-specific way of life, with mangers for the animals cut from the rock along with presses used to tread grapes and later to make pekmez (grape molasses). Tandır ovens cut into the floors doubled as heating. This was a way of life that continued right into the first decade of the 21st century but that came to an effective end as a result of a tourism book that saw almost all the old houses converted into boutique hotels by around 2015.

Tourism
Göreme was little visited by tourists until the 1970s but by 2000 had become the tourist capital of Cappadocia. Tourism brought wealth and a better standard of living to the village but it has completely changed not just the use of the old cave buildings within the village which have almost all been converted into hotels but also the lives of the villagers, almost all of whom now work in tourism. Many erstwhile residents have moved to live in the surrounding towns and villages – Nevşehir, Avanos, Uçhisar and Ürgüp – having sold their houses in Göreme for conversion into hotels. In the second decade of the 21st century an increasing number of hotels started to be built or bought by investors from outside Göreme.

title: Göreme


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Claudius Xenophon

Claudius Xenophon (or Xenephon) was a governor of Britannia Inferior, a province of Roman Britain around AD 223. He is named on two milestones with nearly identical texts, which can be dated to that year. He succeeded Marius Valerianus, whose rule is attested in AD 222; and his governorship must have ended by AD 225, when another governor is mentioned in a fragmentary inscription, which only provides part of the name (Maximus). He is also mentioned in inscriptions in Vindolanda and perhaps at Chesters. His father is thought to be a T. Cl(audius) T. f(ilius) Papiria Xenophon, who is mentioned in inscriptions and papyri in various procuratorships in Egypt and Dacia under Commodus.

title: Claudius Xenophon


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Moench

Moench may refer to:

 * Conrad Moench (1744–1805), German botanist
 * Doug Moench (born 1948), American comic book writer
 * Louis F. Moench (1847–1916), founder of Weber Stake Academy
 * Mönch, a Swiss mountain

title: Moench


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Franz Mehring

Franz Erdmann Mehring (27 February 1846 – 28 January 1919) was a German communist historian, literary and art critic, philosopher, and revolutionary socialist politician who was a senior member of the Spartacus League during the German Revolution of 1918–1919.

Early years
Mehring was born 27 February 1846 in Schlawe, Pomerania, the son of a retired military officer and senior tax official. He studied classical philology at the University of Leipzig and received his doctorate in 1882 with the dissertation: "The German social democracy, their history and their teaching".

Political career
Mehring worked for various daily and weekly newspapers and over many years wrote lead articles for the weekly magazine Die Neue Zeit.

He was initially a supporter of liberal democratic ideals and allied himself with the national-liberal camp, however after being acquainted with working-class leaders such as August Bebel and Wilhelm Liebknecht Mehring gradually moved towards socialism.

In 1868, Mehring moved to Berlin to study and worked in the editorial office of the Die Zukunft newspaper.

From 1871 to 1874, Mehring worked for the Correspondence Office in Oldenburg, writing reports on sessions of the Reichstag and the local parliament. He became a well-known parliamentary reporter, working for the Frankfurter Zeitung newspaper and Die Waage, a newspaper published by Leopold Sonnemann.

From time to time Mehring spoke in support of the labor movement, his views were initially close to Ferdinand Lassalle. In 1880, Mehring began to study the works of Karl Marx.

Mehring left Die Waage after an argument with Sonnemann and in 1884 became chief editor of the Berliner Volks-Zeitung newspaper. He spoke out against Otto von Bismarck’s Anti-Socialist Laws, although he still was at the time himself close to liberal parties. In 1891, Mehring joined the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD).

In 1893, Mehring was the recipient of a letter from Friedrich Engels, in which the latter first wrote the phrase False consciousness.

Between 1902 and 1907, Mehring was the chief editor of the Social Democratic Leipziger Volkszeitung newspaper.

From 1906 to 1911, Mehring taught at the SPD's party school and was a member of the Prussian parliament from 1917 to 1918.

During World War I, Mehring began to distance himself from the SPD, along with other members who believed the party was abandoning its Socialist Agenda by passing a bill to send more troops to war. In 1916, the left-wing Marxist revolutionary Spartacus League was founded and Mehring was one of its main leaders alongside Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg.

Mehring was sympathetic to the Bolshevik organization in Russia and to the cause of the October Revolution.

Mehring wrote a Marxist analysis of the actions of King Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden which rejected the official explanation of the Thirty Years' War as having been rooted in religion, arguing instead that the economic and social interests of various classes were the actual spurs to action. After "long and irritating delays owing to the military censorship" (according to the English translator Edward Fitzgerald, 1935 U.S. edition), Mehring's Karl Marx: The Story of His Life was published in 1918. The classical biography of Marx, it was dedicated to fellow Spartacist Clara Zetkin. The book was later translated into many languages, including Russian (1920), Swedish (1921–1922), Danish (1922), Hungarian (1925), Japanese (1930), Spanish (1932), and English (1935).

Death and legacy
Already in ill health, Mehring was deeply affected by the death of his comrades Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht in January 1919. He died just under two weeks later on 28 January 1919 in Berlin at the age of 73. His grave now forms part of the Memorial to the Socialists (Gedenkstätte der Sozialisten) in the Friedrichsfelde Central Cemetery, Berlin. Mehring's papers reside as fond 201 at the Russian Center for Preservation and Research of Modern Historical Documents (RCChIDNI) in Moscow. This material is also available for use by scholars on three reels of microfilm, with permission required by the center before extensive extracts may be published. Mehringdamm, Mehringplatz, and the NVA Air Force Officer's Academy that was located in Kamenz were all named after him.

title: Franz Mehring


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Maximus

Maximus (Hellenised as Maximos) is the Latin term for "greatest" or "largest". In this connection it may refer to:
 * Circus Maximus (disambiguation)
 * Pontifex maximus, the highest priest of the College of Pontiffs in ancient Rome

Roman historical figures

 * Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus (c. 280–203 BC), surnamed Cunctator, "the delayer"
 * Magnus Maximus, Roman emperor from 383 to 388
 * Maximus of Moesia (fl. 89–117), twice consul
 * Maximus of Hispania (409–411), Roman usurper
 * Petronius Maximus (396–455), Western Roman Emperor for two and a half months in 455

Authors and philosophers

 * Valerius Maximus, 1st-century historian
 * Claudius Maximus, 2nd-century Stoic, teacher of emperor Marcus Aurelius
 * Maximus of Tyre, 2nd-century Greek philosopher and rhetorician
 * Maximus of Ephesus (died 372), 4th-century philosopher, preceptor of emperor Julian
 * Ibn Arabi (1165–1240), Muslim mystic and philosopher, called Doctor Maximus
 * Maximus Planudes (c. 1260 – c. 1305), Greek monk, anthologist, translator and theologian

Christian saints

 * Maximus of Aveia or Maximus of Aquila (died c. 250)
 * Maximus of Évreux (died c. 384)
 * Maximus of Jerusalem, saint and bishop of Jerusalem (died 350)
 * Maximus of Lérins (433–460), bishop of Riez, and 2nd abbot of Lérins Abbey
 * Maximus of Naples (died 361)
 * Maximus of Pavia (died 511)
 * Maximus of Turin (died 465)
 * Maximus the Confessor (580–662), theologian
 * Maximus the Greek (1475–1556), translator in Russia
 * Saints Tiburtius, Valerian and Maximus, martyrs at Rom

Christian bishops and patriarchs

 * Maximus I of Antioch, Patriarch of Antioch in 182–191
 * Archbishop Maximus I of Constantinople, arch-bishop in 380, opponent of Gregory Nazianzen
 * Maximus II of Antioch, Patriarch 449–455
 * Maximus (bishop of Zaragoza) (fl. 592–619)
 * Maximus (Bishop of Ceneda) (fl. 741–790), Bishop of Ceneda
 * Maximus, Metropolitan of all Rus (died 1305)
 * Patriarch Maximus II of Constantinople (died 1216)
 * Patriarch Maximus III of Constantinople, Patriarch in 1476–1481
 * Patriarch Maximus IV of Constantinople, Patriarch in 1491–1497
 * Patriarch Maximus V of Constantinople (1897–1972), Patriarch in 1946–1948

Fictional characters

 * Antillar Maximus, a character in Jim Butcher's Codex Alera series
 * Flattus Maximus, lead guitarist of heavy metal act GWAR
 * Fortress Maximus, a giant Autobot from the Transformers franchise
 * Maximus, a supporting character, the name of a horse in Disney's Tangled
 * Maximus (comics), a Marvel Comics villain who frequently opposes the Fantastic Four and the Royal Family of the Inhumans
 * Maximus Decimus Meridius, the main character in Ridley Scott's film, Gladiator
 * Maximus Mayhem, an antagonist from the animated show M.A.S.K. (TV series)
 * Maximus Musicus, the main character of a musical educational franchise of the same name
 * Maximus "Max" Zamfirescu, a character in the 1998 movie My Giant

Other

 * Gluteus maximus muscle, the largest and most superficial of the three gluteal muscles
 * Maximos Mansion, the official residence of the Prime Minister of Greece
 * Maximus, a 2013 album by King James
 * Maximus (BBS), a bulletin board system originally developed by Scott J. Dudley
 * Maximus Inc., a publicly traded international corporation based in Tysons Corner, Virginia
 * Maximus (racing yacht), a racing yacht built in 2005
 * Optimus Maximus keyboard

title: Maximus


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User:Rotten

I'll get back to editing eventually...

title: User:Rotten


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The Crossing (McCarthy novel)

The Crossing is a novel by American author Cormac McCarthy, published in 1994 by Alfred A. Knopf. The book is the second installment of McCarthy's "Border Trilogy," following the award-winning All the Pretty Horses (1992), to which The Crossing has been both favorably and unfavorably compared.

Plot introduction
No characters from All the Pretty Horses reappear, but like its predecessor, The Crossing is a coming-of-age novel set on the border between the southwest United States and Mexico. The plot takes place before and during the Second World War and focuses on the life of the protagonist Billy Parham, a teenage cowboy; his family; and his younger brother Boyd. The story tells of three journeys taken from New Mexico to Mexico. It is noted for being more melancholic than the first book of the trilogy, without returning to the hellish bleakness of McCarthy's early novels.

Most of the protagonists are people of few words; thus the dialogues are few and concise. Additionally, since much of the interaction is with Mexican people, many parts of dialogues are written in untranslated Spanish.

Although the novel is not overtly satirical or humorous, it has many of the qualities of a picaresque: a realistic portrayal of a destitute hero embarking on a series of loosely connected, arguably doomed quests. In a critical review, The Independent described the book as "an ungainly picaresque" that "never becomes more than a sequence of events."

Plot summary
The first sojourn details a series of hunting expeditions conducted by Billy, his father, and to a lesser extent, his brother Boyd. They are attempting to locate and trap a pregnant female wolf which has been preying on cattle near the family's homestead. McCarthy explores themes throughout the action such as the mystical passage on page 22, describing his father setting a trap:

Crouched in the broken shadow with the sun at his back and holding the trap at eyelevel against the morning sky he looked to be truing some older, some subtler instrument. Astrolabe or sextant. Like a man bent at fixing himself someway in the world. Bent on trying by arc or chord the space between his being and the world that was. If there be such space. If it be knowable.

When Billy finally catches the animal, he harnesses her and, instead of killing her, determines to return her to the mountains of Mexico where he believes her original home is located. He develops a deep affection for and bond with the wolf, risking his life to save her on more than one occasion.

Critics disagree about the greater significance of Billy's encounters with the wolf. Wallis Sanborn argues that “[a]lthough noble, Parham’s mission to return the captured she-wolf to Mexico is abjectly flawed. . . [it is] nothing more than a man violently controlling a wild animal through the guise of pseudo-nobility” (143). Raymond Malewitz argues that the wolf's "literary agency" becomes visible when Billy's way of thinking about the wolf conflicts with the way the narrator describes the creature.

Along the way, Billy encounters many other travelers and inhabitants of the land who relate in a sophisticated dialogue their deepest philosophies. Take, for example, a Mormon who converts to Catholicism and describes his vision of reality in this way:

Things separate from their stories have no meaning. They are only shapes. Of a certain size and color. A certain weight. When their meaning has become lost to us they no longer have even a name. The story on the other hand can never be lost from its place in the world for it is that place. And that is what was to be found here. The corrido. The tale. And like all corridos it ultimately told one story only, for there is only one to tell.

He also meets an opera troupe performing Pagliacci in the wilds, the characters of which curiously parallel Billy and Boyd's relationship with a girl they save along their route.

He watched the play with interest but could make little of it ... in the end the man in buffoon's motley slew the woman and slew another man perhaps his rival with a dagger

In the second border crossing, Billy and Boyd have set out to recover horses stolen from their family's spread. Their relationship is a strained one, with Boyd displaying a more stubborn nature than that of his brother, a characteristic that hinders Billy's attempts to protect him. Boyd is eventually shot through the chest in a squabble. After he is nursed back to health, he disappears with a young girl.

The third crossing features Billy alone attempting to discover his brother's whereabouts. He learns Boyd has been killed in a gunfight and sets out to find his dead brother's remains, and return them to New Mexico. After finding Boyd's grave and exhuming the body, Billy is ambushed by a band of men who desecrate Boyd's remains and stab Billy's horse through the chest. Billy, with the help of a gypsy, nurses the horse back to riding condition.

The last scene shows Billy alone and desolate, coming across a terribly beat up dog that approaches him for help. In marked contrast to his youthful bond with the wolf, he shoos the dog away angrily, meanly. Later, he feels a flood of remorse: he goes after the dog, calling for it to come back—but it has gone. He breaks down in tears.

title: The Crossing (McCarthy novel)


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User talk:Hasanfrancisco

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

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title: User talk:Hasanfrancisco


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Conrad Moench

Conrad Moench (sometimes written Konrad Mönch; 15 August 1744 – 6 January 1805) was a German botanist, professor of botany at Marburg University from 1786 until his death.

He wrote 'Methodus Plantas horti botanici et agri Marburgensis' in 1794, an arranged account of plants in the fields and gardens of Marburg. In 1802 he named the plant Gillenia trifoliata in a supplement to a local flora of the city of Marburg. He also named the plant genus Echinacea (1794).

The botanical genus Moenchia (family Caryophyllaceae) is named in his honor.

The standard botanical author abbreviation Moench is applied to plants he described.

Principal writings

 * Enumeratio plantarum indigenarum Hassiae praesertim inferioris, secundum methodum sexualem dispositarum, 1777.
 * (published in several editions)
 * Systematische Lehre von denen gebräuchlichsten Einfachen und zusammengesezten Arzney-Mitteln : zum Gebrauch Akademischer Vorlesungen, 1795 – Systematic teaching of simple and compound medicines; academic lectures.
 * Einleitung zur Pflanzen-Kunde, 1798 – Introduction to botany.

title: Conrad Moench


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Anthony West (author)

Anthony West (4 August 1914 – 27 December 1987) was an English author and literary critic.

Biography
West was born Anthony Panther West Fairfield, the son of British authors Rebecca West and H. G. Wells. His parents never married, as Wells was already married to Amy Catherine Robbins, and remained so until after his intimate relationship with West ended (although they remained friends until his death in 1946).

In 1955, Anthony West wrote a novel Heritage, which was technically fiction, but which dealt with the trials of a boy who grows up largely neglected and ignored by his famous parents. This work was a thinly disguised autobiography (a roman à clef). In it, his mother appeared much worse than his father, whom he admired all his life. She fell out with him over it, famously threatening to sue if the book was published in Britain. It was not published in Britain until 1984, after she had died. Similarly, Christopher Lehmann-Haupt wrote when reviewing West's biography of his father that it was "a book whose main purpose seems to be to even the score with anyone who has ever denigrated Mr. West's father", while his mother "is the ultimate target of his book".

A critically lauded author, he wrote novels, essays, and nonfiction works, and reviewed books for The New Yorker from the 1950s until the late 1970s. He won the Houghton Mifflin Award for his novel The Vintage (1949) (published in Britain as On a Dark Night), which Boucher and McComas praised as "a brilliantly terrifying exploration of the theme that each age creates its own peculiar species of hell and Devil". Besides the biography H. G. Wells: Aspects of a Life, he is also known for works on history such as Elizabethan England, and All About the Crusades.

In 1937, West married Katharine Church; the couple had one son (Edmund West) and one daughter (Caroline Frances West) but divorced in 1952. He later married Lily Emmet.

He died at home in Stonington, Connecticut at the age of 73 after suffering a stroke.

Works

 * Amazon
 * Amazon
 * Amazon
 * Amazon
 * Amazon
 * Amazon
 * Textbook
 * Illustrated by Carl Rose
 * An examination of the dossiers of three noted 19th-century women, including Anne Louise Germaine de Staël, 1766–1817
 * "The son of H. G. Wells and Rebecca West provides a biography of his father, chronicling the great English writer's rise to fame and fortune, his relationships with other famous people, and his numerous affairs".
 * "Richard Savage, the illegitimate son of a famous British author and a prominent stage actress, faces the difficulties of growing up in boarding schools and living with one parent at a time".
 * "The son of H. G. Wells and Rebecca West provides a biography of his father, chronicling the great English writer's rise to fame and fortune, his relationships with other famous people, and his numerous affairs".
 * "Richard Savage, the illegitimate son of a famous British author and a prominent stage actress, faces the difficulties of growing up in boarding schools and living with one parent at a time".
 * "Richard Savage, the illegitimate son of a famous British author and a prominent stage actress, faces the difficulties of growing up in boarding schools and living with one parent at a time".

title: Anthony West (author)


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Claudius Apellinus

Claudius Apellinus was a governor of Britannia Inferior, a province of Roman Britain during the reign of Severus Alexander (AD 222 and 235). It is unclear whether his governorship precedes or succeeds those of Calvisius Rufus and Valerius Crescens Fulvianus. Apellinus is known through an inscription marking the repair of a ballistarium at Bremenium, today High Rochester, Northumberland.

Edmund Groag first suggested that this official was related to the Claudii Apellini of Perge in Pamphylia. Anthony Birley notes that it is curious that Apellinus is known as ''leg. Augg. pr. pr., and speculates whether Aug. was amended to Augg.'' (the plural form) to indicate that Apellinus had become the legate of Maximinus and his son Maximus.

title: Claudius Apellinus


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Cities of the Plain (novel)

Cities of the Plain is the final volume of American novelist Cormac McCarthy's "Border Trilogy", published in 1998. The title is a reference to Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:29).

Plot summary
The story opens in 1952. John Grady Cole (the protagonist of All the Pretty Horses) and Billy Parham (the protagonist of The Crossing) work together on a cattle ranch south of Alamogordo, New Mexico, not far from the border cities of El Paso, Texas, and Ciudad Juárez in the state of Chihuahua, Mexico. The ranch's owners are kind, but face an uncertain future in a dying industry. Recently devastated by drought, cattle ranches around El Paso are struggling and may be claimed by the Department of Defense, through eminent domain, to become military areas. Though the cowboys barely make a living, John Grady and Billy love life on the open range, and John Grady – as detailed in All the Pretty Horses – is a master at training horses. Billy is an excellent tracker.

During a visit to a brothel in Juárez, John Grady falls in love with a young, epileptic prostitute, Magdalena. The couple plans to marry and live in the U.S., and John Grady renovates an abandoned cabin, turning it into a home. But Magdalena's brothel is run by Eduardo, a formidable adversary also in love with the young girl. Billy attempts to dissuade John Grady but feels obligated to help the couple.

Eduardo's subordinate Tiburcio murders Magdalena by cutting her throat, after she steals away from the brothel to meet John Grady at a crossing of the Rio Grande and leave Mexico. After John Grady finds her body in the morgue, he faces Eduardo in a knife fight. Though John Grady kills Eduardo, he is mortally wounded in the fight. He survives long enough to contact Billy, who hurries to comfort John Grady before his death.

After John Grady's death, a short epilogue—not unlike the conclusion of Blood Meridian (1985)—details, in a few pages, the next several decades of Billy's life. After drifting across the Southwest for many years, working ranches and living in hotels, Billy, homeless, takes shelter beneath a highway underpass. There, he meets a mysterious man who tells him about a convoluted dream. Though the man denies it, Billy suspects he is Death. However, Billy survives the meeting with the man and finds shelter and a new life with a family who takes him in.

Reception
Cities of the Plain was favorably reviewed in The New York Times, though the reviewer criticized McCarthy's violent prose and arcane language, observing: "One begins to miss the simple evocation of cowboy life that is so stirring in the earlier novels."

Film adaptation
A film adaptation, directed by Andrew Dominik and starring James Franco, was stated to be in development, but as of 2018 these plans appeared to have fallen through.

title: Cities of the Plain (novel)


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Mutation rate

In genetics, the mutation rate is the frequency of new mutations in a single gene, nucleotide sequence, or organism over time. Mutation rates are not constant and are not limited to a single type of mutation; there are many different types of mutations. Mutation rates are given for specific classes of mutations. Point mutations are a class of mutations which are changes to a single base. Missense and Nonsense mutations are two subtypes of point mutations. The rate of these types of substitutions can be further subdivided into a mutation spectrum which describes the influence of the genetic context on the mutation rate.

There are several natural units of time for each of these rates, with rates being characterized either as mutations per base pair per cell division, per gene per generation, or per genome per generation. The mutation rate of an organism is an evolved characteristic and is strongly influenced by the genetics of each organism, in addition to strong influence from the environment. The upper and lower limits to which mutation rates can evolve is the subject of ongoing investigation. However, the mutation rate does vary over the genome. Over DNA, RNA or a single gene, mutation rates are changing.

When the mutation rate in humans increases certain health risks can occur, for example, cancer and other hereditary diseases. Having knowledge of mutation rates is vital to understanding the future of cancers and many hereditary diseases.

Background
Different genetic variants within a species are referred to as alleles, therefore a new mutation can create a new allele. In population genetics, each allele is characterized by a selection coefficient, which measures the expected change in an allele's frequency over time. The selection coefficient can either be negative, corresponding to an expected decrease, positive, corresponding to an expected increase, or zero, corresponding to no expected change. The distribution of fitness effects of new mutations is an important parameter in population genetics and has been the subject of extensive investigation. Although measurements of this distribution have been inconsistent in the past, it is now generally thought that the majority of mutations are mildly deleterious, that many have little effect on an organism's fitness, and that a few can be favorable.

Because of natural selection, unfavorable mutations will typically be eliminated from a population while favorable changes are generally kept for the next generation, and neutral changes accumulate at the rate they are created by mutations. This process happens by reproduction. In a particular generation the 'best fit' survive with higher probability, passing their genes to their offspring. The sign of the change in this probability defines mutations to be beneficial, neutral or harmful to organisms.

Measurement
An organism's mutation rates can be measured by a number of techniques.

One way to measure the mutation rate is by the fluctuation test, also known as the Luria–Delbrück experiment. This experiment demonstrated that bacteria mutations occur in the absence of selection instead of the presence of selection.

This is very important to mutation rates because it proves experimentally mutations can occur without selection being a component—in fact, mutation and selection are completely distinct evolutionary forces. Different DNA sequences can have different propensities to mutation (see below) and may not occur randomly.

The most commonly measured class of mutations are substitutions, because they are relatively easy to measure with standard analyses of DNA sequence data. However substitutions have a substantially different rate of mutation (10−8 to 10−9 per generation for most cellular organisms) than other classes of mutation, which are frequently much higher (~10−3 per generation for satellite DNA expansion/contraction ).

Substitution rates
Many sites in an organism's genome may admit mutations with small fitness effects. These sites are typically called neutral sites. Theoretically mutations under no selection become fixed between organisms at precisely the mutation rate. Fixed synonymous mutations, i.e. synonymous substitutions, are changes to the sequence of a gene that do not change the protein produced by that gene. They are often used as estimates of that mutation rate, despite the fact that some synonymous mutations have fitness effects. As an example, mutation rates have been directly inferred from the whole genome sequences of experimentally evolved replicate lines of Escherichia coli B.

Mutation accumulation lines
A particularly labor-intensive way of characterizing the mutation rate is the mutation accumulation line.

Mutation accumulation lines have been used to characterize mutation rates with the Bateman-Mukai Method and direct sequencing of well-studied experimental organisms ranging from intestinal bacteria (E. coli), roundworms (C. elegans), yeast (S. cerevisiae), fruit flies (D. melanogaster), and small ephemeral plants (A. thaliana).

Variation in mutation rates

Mutation rates differ between species and even between different regions of the genome of a single species. These different rates of nucleotide substitution are measured in substitutions (fixed mutations) per base pair per generation. For example, mutations in intergenic, or non-coding, DNA tend to accumulate at a faster rate than mutations in DNA that is actively in use in the organism (gene expression). That is not necessarily due to a higher mutation rate, but to lower levels of purifying selection. A region which mutates at predictable rate is a candidate for use as a molecular clock.

If the rate of neutral mutations in a sequence is assumed to be constant (clock-like), and if most differences between species are neutral rather than adaptive, then the number of differences between two different species can be used to estimate how long ago two species diverged (see molecular clock). In fact, the mutation rate of an organism may change in response to environmental stress. For example, UV light damages DNA, which may result in error prone attempts by the cell to perform DNA repair.

The human mutation rate is higher in the male germ line (sperm) than the female (egg cells), but estimates of the exact rate have varied by an order of magnitude or more. This means that a human genome accumulates around 64 new mutations per generation because each full generation involves a number of cell divisions to generate gametes. Human mitochondrial DNA has been estimated to have mutation rates of ~3× or ~2.7×10−5 per base per 20 year generation (depending on the method of estimation); these rates are considered to be significantly higher than rates of human genomic mutation at ~2.5×10−8 per base per generation. Using data available from whole genome sequencing, the human genome mutation rate is similarly estimated to be ~1.1×10−8 per site per generation.

The rate for other forms of mutation also differs greatly from point mutations. An individual microsatellite locus often has a mutation rate on the order of 10−4, though this can differ greatly with length.

Some sequences of DNA may be more susceptible to mutation. For example, stretches of DNA in human sperm which lack methylation are more prone to mutation.

In general, the mutation rate in unicellular eukaryotes (and bacteria) is roughly 0.003 mutations per genome per cell generation. However, some species, especially the ciliate of the genus Paramecium have an unusually low mutation rate. For instance, Paramecium tetraurelia has a base-substitution mutation rate of ~2 × 10−11 per site per cell division. This is the lowest mutation rate observed in nature so far, being about 75× lower than in other eukaryotes with a similar genome size, and even 10× lower than in most prokaryotes. The low mutation rate in Paramecium has been explained by its transcriptionally silent germ-line nucleus, consistent with the hypothesis that replication fidelity is higher at lower gene expression levels.

The highest per base pair per generation mutation rates are found in viruses, which can have either RNA or DNA genomes. DNA viruses have mutation rates between 10−6 to 10−8 mutations per base per generation, and RNA viruses have mutation rates between 10−3 to 10−5 per base per generation.

Mutation spectrum
A mutation spectrum is a distribution of rates or frequencies for the mutations relevant in some context, based on the recognition that rates of occurrence are not all the same. In any context, the mutation spectrum reflects the details of mutagenesis and is affected by conditions such as the presence of chemical mutagens or genetic backgrounds with mutator alleles or damaged DNA repair systems. The most fundamental and expansive concept of a mutation spectrum is the distribution of rates for all individual mutations that might happen in a genome (e.g., ). From this full de novo spectrum, for instance, one may calculate the relative rate of mutation in coding vs non-coding regions. Typically the concept of a spectrum of mutation rates is simplified to cover broad classes such as transitions and transversions (figure), i.e., different mutational conversions across the genome are aggregated into classes, and there is an aggregate rate for each class.

In many contexts, a mutation spectrum is defined as the observed frequencies of mutations identified by some selection criterion, e.g., the distribution of mutations associated clinically with a particular type of cancer, or the distribution of adaptive changes in a particular context such as antibiotic resistance (e.g., ). Whereas the spectrum of de novo mutation rates reflects mutagenesis alone, this kind of spectrum may also reflect effects of selection and ascertainment biases (e.g., both kinds of spectrum are used in ).

Evolution
The theory on the evolution of mutation rates identifies three principal forces involved: the generation of more deleterious mutations with higher mutation, the generation of more advantageous mutations with higher mutation, and the metabolic costs and reduced replication rates that are required to prevent mutations. Different conclusions are reached based on the relative importance attributed to each force. The optimal mutation rate of organisms may be determined by a trade-off between costs of a high mutation rate, such as deleterious mutations, and the metabolic costs of maintaining systems to reduce the mutation rate (such as increasing the expression of DNA repair enzymes. or, as reviewed by Bernstein et al. having increased energy use for repair, coding for additional gene products and/or having slower replication). Secondly, higher mutation rates increase the rate of beneficial mutations, and evolution may prevent a lowering of the mutation rate in order to maintain optimal rates of adaptation. As such, hypermutation enables some cells to rapidly adapt to changing conditions in order to avoid the entire population from becoming extinct. Finally, natural selection may fail to optimize the mutation rate because of the relatively minor benefits of lowering the mutation rate, and thus the observed mutation rate is the product of neutral processes.

Studies have shown that treating RNA viruses such as poliovirus with ribavirin produce results consistent with the idea that the viruses mutated too frequently to maintain the integrity of the information in their genomes. This is termed error catastrophe.

The high mutation rate HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) of 3 x 10−5 per base and generation, coupled with its short replication cycle leads to a high antigen variability, allowing it to evade the immune system.

title: Mutation rate


text:
Talk:Windsor Tower (Madrid)

Untitled
Some nice photos here. (I'm a thorough skeptic of the official 9/11 conspiracy theory but AFAIK these buildings were not similar design as the page claims. So I didn't make it an external link.) Kwantus 21:58, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

As this is the English language Wikipedia, this article should be at Windsor Tower and not Torre Windsor Astrotrain 20:46, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

How did it get its name? Diomedea Exulans (talk) 14:30, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Hoax?
Windsor Tower sustained in Feb of 2005 sustained a 20 hour fire without much damage to its steel frame? Was that a hoax? --195.210.230.226 22:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The entire steel frame collapsed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.98.196 (talk) 19:31, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Of course it was a hoax! The WTC collapsed after 90 minutes! --Constructor 09:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No hoax  AJUK  Talk!! 10:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Windsor Tower (Madrid)


text:
Laplander

Laplander may refer to:
 * Something from or related to Lapland (region)
 * Sami people, or anyone else living in the area of Lapland
 * Laplander, also used in English contexts for the Finnish speaking population in Finnish Lapland
 * Volvo Laplander L3314, a type of military vehicle produced by Volvo
 * LAPLander (Light Airbag Protected Lander), a space probe

title: Laplander


text:
Studebaker-Packard Corporation

The Studebaker-Packard Corporation is the entity created in 1954 by the purchase of the Studebaker Corporation of South Bend, Indiana, by the Packard Motor Car Company of Detroit, Michigan. While Studebaker was the larger of the two companies, Packard's balance sheet and executive team were stronger than that of the South Bend company.

In the spring of 1962, Studebaker-Packard reverted its name to "Studebaker Corporation". The following year, the South Bend plant was closed, while its Canadian plant in Hamilton, Ontario, continued to produce Studebaker cars until 1966. The South Bend plant would later be acquired by the Avanti Motor Company.

Studebaker Corp. merged with Worthington Corporation one year later. Studebaker-Worthington was a diversified American manufacturer operating the various business units of Studebaker, Wagner Electric and Worthington Corporation. The company was in turn acquired by McGraw-Edison in 1979. In 2008, the Studebaker and Packard trademarks were acquired by Silver Knight Group, Inc. In 2021, Silver Knight Group announced that they were forming a new Studebaker-Packard Corporation entity, aiming to revive the brand in 2025.

Purposes of merger
It was hoped that Packard would benefit from Studebaker's larger dealer network. Studebaker hoped to gain through the additional strength that Packard's cash position could provide. Once both companies stabilized their balance sheets and strengthened their product line, the original plan devised by Packard president James J. Nance and Nash-Kelvinator Corporation president George W. Mason was that the combined Studebaker-Packard company would join a combined Nash-Kelvinator Corporation and Hudson Motor Car Company in an all-new four-marque American Motors Corporation.

Had the complicated set of combinations gone through as planned, the new company would have immediately surpassed the Chrysler Corporation to become the third of America's "Big Three" automobile manufacturers. However, the sudden death of Mason in 1954 (succeeded by George W. Romney) and disputes over parts-sharing arrangements between the companies doomed any chance of completing the proposed merger. This failure to combine the companies effectively sealed the fates of all four, though American Motors survived until its own buyout by Chrysler in 1987.

Packard executives soon discovered that Studebaker had been less than forthcoming in all of its financial and sales records. The situation was considerably more dire than Nance and his team were led to believe; Studebaker's break-even point was an unreachable 282,000 cars at a time when the company had barely sold 82,000 cars in 1954. Furthering the new company's problems was the loss of about 30% of Studebaker's dealer network by 1956.

Studebaker-Packard tried a company reorganization in which Studebaker took the part of the volume and commercial car and truck seller from South Bend while Packard was to re-occupy the luxury market - one of Nance's targets since he took over Packard's presidency in 1952. The gap in between was filled by a new make, the Clipper. Technically, it was a lighter Packard, built in Detroit alongside the senior cars. The next generation of cars would have to be concentrated on one location, and there was a detailed program for sharing as much sheet metal as possible. Although Nance was presumably right, dealer resistance against the Clipper as a new entry in the intermediate field was big. Dealers complained that the only thing that allowed them to sell Clippers was the prestige, though declining, of the Packard name on the car itself.

Following a disastrous sales year in 1956, Nance resigned and Studebaker-Packard entered a management agreement with the Curtiss-Wright Corporation. Curtiss, led by Roy T. Hurley, insisted on major changes. All of Studebaker-Packard's defense contracts and plants where defense work was carried out were picked up by Curtiss, Packard production in Detroit was stopped and all remaining automotive efforts were shifted to South Bend.

"Packardbakers"
The Packards (for 1957 and 1958) were essentially Studebaker Presidents with a redesigned Front Clip using Packard Parts and redesigned interior and tail of the car also using Packard Parts. The vehicles were referred to as "Packardbakers". The final Packard rolled off the assembly line on July 25, 1958. That year, Studebaker instructed company personnel to sell their Packards and use only Studebakers. Hurley was able to negotiate the distribution rights of the Mercedes Benz automobile brand in the USA exclusively owned by SP. Daimler Benz. The agreement was looked on as a necessity both for the income that Mercedes-Benz could add to the company's bottom line and as another product that the Studebaker dealer network could sell in the event that the company quit building its own cars.

Studebaker-Packard Corporation made numerous attempt at resurrecting the Packard nameplate. The Franco-American Facel-Vega four-door sedan, which was powered by a Chrysler V8 engine, would have been supplied the basis of a new Packard. Additional work was done with the Ford Motor Company to use the 1956 Lincoln Bodies that Ford was eliminating. Studebaker Corporation in 1965 sold back to Daimler Benz, Mercedes Benz of North America which was distributing Mercedes in the USA.

Diversification
In 1960, the company began diversification efforts by buying:
 * D. W. Onan & Sons - Generators & engines
 * Cincinnati Testing Labs - Plastics Research
 * Gering Plastics - Plastics Manufacture
 * Clarke Floor Machine Company - Floor cleaners & buffers
 * Gravely Tractors - Quality lawnmowers
 * Chemical Compounds Company - Maker of STP additives

In 1961 Sherwood Egbert was appointed company president. He was expected to help diversify the company. In the spring of 1962, four years after the last Packard car rolled off the assembly line, and eight years following the merger between Packard and Studebaker, the company dropped 'Packard' from its legal name, which returned to being 'Studebaker Corporation'.

title: Studebaker-Packard Corporation


text:
Calvisius Rufus

Calvisius Rufus was a governor of Britannia Inferior, a province of Roman Britain during the reign of Severus Alexander (AD 222 and 235). It is unclear whether his governorship precedes or succeeds those of Claudius Apellinus and Valerius Crescens Fulvianus. Little else is known of him, although an inscription records his remodeling of a building at Old Penrith.

title: Calvisius Rufus


text:
Valerius Crescens Fulvianus

Valerius Crescens Fulvianus was a governor of Britannia Inferior, a province of Roman Britain, during the reign of Severus Alexander (AD 222 and 235). It is unclear whether his governorship precedes or succeeds those of Calvisius Rufus and Claudius Apellinus. Little else is known of him although an inscription does record him restoring a temple at Bremetennacum (Ribchester).

title: Valerius Crescens Fulvianus


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of Christianity/Jesus, pre-4th century Christianity, and syncretism

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was MERGE or DELETE. I'm going to make it a redirect to History of Christianity for now; anyone braver than me is invited to merge anything useful. dbenbenn | talk 14:26, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I have moved this to a subpage of History of Christianity. The page is History of Christianity/Jesus, pre-4th century Christianity, and syncretism. For those who want to merge, go ahead. Admins: please don't delete the subpage because we need to preserve the edit history to be compliant with GFDL once/if people start the merge. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:36, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jesus, pre-4th century Christianity, and syncretism
This article is an essay that is trying to argue a particular POV. The title itself clearly shows this: it assumes that the three things are linked, though this could be disputed. The article itself is full of weasel words and unsourced opinions and facts. It is irredeemably POV and I would suggest that if there is important information in there that it should be merged into the relevant articles. I am concerned that it is also original research. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:00, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, POV essay. Megan1967 22:17, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree with the rationale of the submitter and this should be deleted in accordance with established policy. I don't have the time to read this thouroughly right now, but a quick scan gives me the impression that some work was put into the article. We should make sure any valuable information is salvaged. Phils 23:15, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge. It is basically an article presenting the case for an alternative account of the early History of Christianity.   It is a point of view, but then so is the more conventional account.  There is considerable interesting material which should not just be deleted.   In my opinion, it should be merged with History of Christianity. --BM 15:00, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge, as delineated above. Borderer 15:18, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge. As BM notes, both this article and the views expressed at History of Christianity are POV. This article does seem to be original research to a certain extent, but it draws heavily on published research. Therefore, I think there is plenty of material that is salvagable. HyperZonktalk 20:55, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

 * Merge including cleanup to a section within History of Christianity, for reasons mentioned by BM and HyperZonk. Given the high age and low verifiability of the sources, and the recurring purging of competing POV-supporting sources over the millenia by church hierarchy or kings or fanatics or armies, virtually all serious discussion on this topic is (arguably) iredeemably POV.  Other topics, particularly some religious ones, have shown that POV breakouts lead far more to edit wars than to compilation of verifiable knowledge about significantly influential events and movements.  Barno 01:52, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * What is here that is worth saving is adequately covered elsewhere. Delete. Fire Star 02:00, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * The article must disappear without a redirect because its title is inherently flawed for the reasons noted by TBSDY. I don't know and don't care whether it should be merged or deleted, though. --MarkSweep 12:12, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge the salvageable, delete what can't and shouldn't be saved. This article is an essay. It draws its conclusion from the start - the subjects in the title are related. It doesn't review studies in the field, nor is it written from an expert's view. The article relies on 'some scholars', 'other scholars', and 'many secular scholars' to create the appearance of a solid factual basis. How many scholars are actually named inline? Two? And James Akin is cited as opposing the whole idea. The extensive list of sources is useless for verification, as it doesn't state where the claims originate, and its length makes it a hassle to find out. --Jill St. Crux 10:46, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Just how many articles specify who supports the text as written? It's unreasonable to only hold this expectation upon VFD articles.  Borderer 13:42, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Borderer, all articles should notes who supports the text as written. In the case of this article, even moreso as it's a minority view and highly controversial. Not only this, but it's in the form of an essay that argues a point (which is not encouraged around here - that's not what we are about. If you want that try Kuro5hin) that is in much dispute. As for only holding this expectation on VfD articles: I don't see where Jill wrote that. I think it's fair to say that Jill, from talking to him around the place, expects it on all articles. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:13, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Not many articles really say much of WHO supports them, BUT: This is a debate prone issue, it must hold to a higer standard. Thinking of standards; It's article name is unendycolpedic, it's far too 'fluffy' in it's language and readily takes advantage of inductive clauses (weasel words) and the sources list is it's own POV nightmare. Delete in accordance with policy or move out of the WP namespace untill it's fixed. -- Dbroadwell 15:30, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * The reason I say this, is because the only time I witness a fuss over stating the scholars in the article is when it is on the VFD. I'm only saying it how I have always seen it by my own eyes, for ever otherwise there is no rabid disputation.  Just because this is on VFD, does not me it should be deleted.  In fact, you should have extended these discussions on the Talk Page much further.  VFD votes can be a mob scene, unrighteously so.  Borderer 22:59, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I assume you are responding to me and have changed the levels accordingly. Firstly, I have consistently always asked for sources for just about every article I've ever reviewed. All my articles have sources for their information, in a manner that allows for fact checking. So I don't think this happens only with VfD. You should check out peer review and FAC for other places where this happens. I realise that just because it's on VfD doesn't mean that this article should be deleted. I personally think it should be deleted (and merge that information which is mergable) because the article is an essay that argues for a point and is very poorly referenced (we had pointed this out to the original author many times, but they never fixed this issue). It's very title is POV, and so it is irreedeamble. There is good info in there, but this needs to be merged into another article - I don't dispute this. However, this POV piece should be merged and then deleted. - Ta bu shi da yu 23:36, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. It's a POV essay. No one is stepping up to actually connect the claims made with the published research; I suspect that much of the sources that are listed are either outdated, or are primarily based on outdated research. For those who want to merge, are you able to identify the parts worth merging as they are now? Wesley 17:36, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. We I am CheeseDreams.
 * You should note that TBSDY is on a campaign to supress this article completely, having started by re-writing, and removing one of the most major of arguments in this academic debate (i.e. that which the article discusses) wholesale - the most frequently cited potential template - Horus.
 * This occured because TBSDY was unable to provide any academic counter argument - see its talk page, so rather than let it stand as blatent inarguable truth, TBSDY is on campaign to discredit it by associating it with bad scholars, and removing the strongest part of the case to make it look mergable (by leaving a somewhat stubby and messy survival).
 * This sort of campaign is typical by fundamentalists -
 * (0) try arguments from faith and when that fails
 * (1) spin - make it look like the argument of just one or two discredited writers
 * (2) ad hominem - imply that the argument is wrong because the author is discredited (even if they are only discredited for seperate reasons concerning other claims)
 * (3) focus on the weakest part of the argument and ignore (i.e. delete) the strongest
 * (4) try to destroy them by a vote rather than academic counterargument (n.b. votes cannot change the truth - e.g. a vote cannot make PI=3, even if the state of Texas declares it to be so (this happened)).
 * How interesting. It's not true, and even a cursory glance at a site like snopes would have revealed it to be an urban legend. See . You aren't helping your case any, CheeseDreams! - Ta bu shi da yu 01:09, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * You should also note that the weasel words were not my choice, but Mpolo's, with whom I worked to try to balance the article; I would have preferred to drop them altogether.
 * CheeseDreams.

 * Those reading the slanderous comments CheeseDreams has just made should be aware of a few things:
 * CheeseDreams is not posting from her account because she posted her password to User:Rienzo's account. It was determined by another admin that she used the same password for no less than 5 other sock-puppet accounts. All of these accounts have had the password reset.
 * CheeseDreams is currently in Arbitratrion over disruptive editing practices and POV pushing for bypassing her previous ArbCom rulings.
 * CheeseDreams was asked by me several times for sources (before these things happened), however she never provided them and never attempted to add them into the article. See Talk:Historicity_of_Jesus/Archive_4. Whenever I asked for sources, she merely (and absurdly) replied Assume good faith. To which I was forced to reply Cite sources! When I asked for where specific facts came from in her 44 books she has placed into references, she said that I should read them! In other words, she wasn't prepared to tell me where she got specific facts. This problem went on for quite a while, when she got blocked and banned from editing articles related to Christianity I gave up and started removing material that was unsourced. CheeseDreams had lots of opportunities to sort these issues out, however she decided not to.
 * CheeseDreams uses sources like The Two Babylons as scholarly works. See Talk:Historicity of Jesus, she mentions it in the archives. Jill (who speaks Hebrew natively) tells me that there are quite a few inaccuaries in Hislop's text. I have read half of Hislops tract. It's basically a polemic stating that the Roman Catholic church is the new Babylon of Revelation. I don't think so. It's full of absurd conclusions and tenuous links and chock full of inaccuracies. If it was submitted to peer review it would be slaughtered by academics jumping all over it because of its inaccuracies and sheer downright dodginess.
 * CheeseDreams has been deliberately disruptive when things don't go her way. She is about to be banned from submitting RFCs and RFArs because of her harassment of users. She has harassed me by implying that I am a sock puppet of Rienzo. She never has the guts to send me a message on my talk page when she disagrees about something I do, instead I find (usually by accident) that she is campaigning against me behind my back. I have always been upfront with her, she cannot show me the same courtesy.
 * CheeseDreams left Historicity of Jesus in a totally unusable state. See . Notice the following: just about all the carefully edited (for consensus) information was largely replaced by what CheeseDreams thought was important, there are no less than 4 tags on the article, there is no lead section, there are sections irrelevant to the article, there are empty sections, the entire article is POV as it comes from the POV that Jesus is the "new syncretism" (a minority viewpoint), the material is unsourced (though there is a huge list of materials in References that CD added, but I doubt most were used - for instance "Dial an Atheist: Greatest Hits from Ohio"? Yeah, right!). She expected us to not make any alterations on that article for an entire week. See, where the edit summary is: "SAM, do not remove the "I haven't finished making a major change to this article but will do so by next week", it is distorting. AND until you put why on the talk page, I am removing the dispute notic".
 * That's just a small amount of things CheeseDreams has done. So please, I hope that others will take this into account. I have been very open and tried not to disrupt editing. At one point, when I was very frustrated about the entire way things were going I bowed out of the articles so I wouldn't disrupt the article! Slrubenstein, Wesley and SamSpade have all been frustrated by this editor. They aren't the only ones. Many, many more people have been frustrated by the disruption and POV pushing that was ongoing in these controversial and highly sensitive articles. The article I have just put on VfD is only one of the articles CD has written. I have not placed any others on VfD, however this one is clear POV pushing. - Ta bu shi da yu 00:18, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * One last thing: CheeseDreams is under a temporary injunction. Next time I see her post from an anonymous IP address to anything but her ArbCom page or her talk page for User talk:CheeseDreams or User:CheeseDreams, then I block that IP address for 24 hours. If it's not CD, then that person is impersonating her, in which case the block would also be fair. I should note that I didn't get CD into this mess: CD got herself into this mess. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:06, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Salvage the salvageable then delete this mess - David Gerard 14:46, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete: essay, nothing to merge, irredeemable title. Bishonen | Talk 13:54, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Discussion about the merge
Out of interest, what parts do people want to have merged into History of Christianity? I'll make an attempt, but I can't see anything that is properly referenced in such a way that could be considered mergable into that topic. I could be wrong (and I am biased against the article, after all I did list it on VfD), but it seems that most of it is just original research with none too many source cited. There's whole chunks in there that seem to talk extensively about another culture but doesn't really explicitely detail how it is related to Christianity. For instance, the whole "Osiris-Dionysus" implies, but doesn't state explicitly, that there are similarities between some parts of Christianity and other cultures. The whole section seems to hinge on the text "However, some scholars think that an appropriate version of the tale was made up, inventing the figure of a particularly holy rabbi who was crucified and resurrected, Jesus, syncretising bits of the other localised versions where suitable." - however, this uses a weasel word and doesn't state implicitly which scholars hold this position.

The parts that are original research are the entirity of the "Osiris-Dionysus" section. It holds no information sourced from external sources and appears to be the POV of the author who wrote the piece. This is clear against our "no original research" policy. If this section were to be merged into any document, we would need to see an external, verifiable source.

The "Mithras Sol Invictus" I think is not such a big problem when it comes to merging. There is much in that that should be merged into the History of Christianity. However, again the proviso is that we source who has the opinions written into the piece.

With the "issues of priority", I notice that the author has written from the presupposition that Christian concepts must have had a parallel with other religions. For instance "For instance, Creation according to Genesis is a negative parallel of the Babylonian creation myth in Enuma Elish." This statement presupposes that the Genesis account must have been a negative parallel of the Babylonian creation myth. Why? Perhaps this should be more clearly stated whose opinion this is and where they are sourcing it from. I don't have a problem with merging this section into the History of Christianity article is sources can be provided. If they can't be, then I have a big problem with it. It's a pity the original author (CheeseDreams) edited in such a way that she effectively stopped information from being added into the article this was split off from (Historicity of Jesus) and has since been so badly disrupted she has had two arbitration requests and several RFCs (since then, this author has posted her password on a known trolls account, forcing an admin to find 6 of her sockpuppet accounts - and her main account - and change her password). The pity is that we now can't find out which of her sources she was using in those sections. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:54, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Comment: I agree with TBSDY's comments. Unfortunately I just don't have the expertise (nor the resources without extensive web searches, and probably travel to private archives) to flesh out these points with proper sourcing.  I hope we have a few editors who can do it.  The topic is substantial but POV issues affect most people who care much about it.  Barno 15:56, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Comment: Put a summary of it into the Roots of Christianity; perhaps a whole subsection thereof. If the Zoroastrianism part is included, then so must the Egyptian especially since the Hebrews were long associated with Egypt back to the Hyksos invasion.  It would be POV to disclude this factor, considering the trail of monotheism left by Akhenaten and adopted by the Hebrews.  I myself don't know much about Zoroaster, but I certainly recognise much of the Egyptian issue and I'm more of a casual researcher.  It seems to me that Zoroastrian elements are tied to the Persian background, but it would be prejudiced to say that the Egyptians have no basis when they long dominated Palestine.

 * The Greek Pharaoh himself patroned the Septuagint in Alexandria. I find the bigotry towards an Egyptian root of Christianity to be entirely unfounded when so much of Egyptian culture was adopted by all peoples in a certain radius outwards.  Perhaps this lies in traditional ideas about race; that the Hamites of Africa have not contributed anything and that the Persians supposedly were/are White or considered Japhethic as opposed to the Semites.  Seriously, this Noahidic classification thing is ridiculous because these Afro-Asiatic people are undoubtedly very much alike and most uninvolved observers would say they are less White than the Greeks and Romans.  I consider Persians to be Semites because they are Asian, in this context.

 * Give it as much credence as the Persian foundations and you will make this NPOV. I seriously suggest expounding upon both roots of Christianity and also delineating the Greek root which provided Roman impetus for adoption and proliferation.  For instance, if the Greeks hadn't patroned that religious culture as their relation to Philistines, Rome would have dismissed it as everything else in their cultural relationship with Greece.  Rome even rebuilt Greek Philistia as Palestine and during the Catholic Crusades, it became the Kingdom of Jerusalem.  Christianity has so many dimensions, that it would be haughty to overlook its far ranging origins which even has pagan influences from Europe and Buddhist ties in Southwest Asia.

 * I myself used to be atheist or Odinist not wanting to deal with what I percieved to be other peoples' culture and now I look in wonder at the historical background of the Sea Peoples and the subsequent Graeco-Roman expansion in the Mediterranean Sea. There are European roots throughout the region now considered Islamic or Arab, but if we don't provide the means for people to see it we will forget it as much as the terrible destruction of the Library of Alexandria.  Just think of the term Indo-European and you will understand Alexander the Great's empire.  See the connection between the European fylfot and Indian swastika or the Cross and the Ankh?  Please don't demolish this magnificent research, for it has been a great boon in my life to know these things.  Borderer 16:32, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Comment Borderer, your comments appear to be just original research attempting to convince us, your fellow editors, of a particular POV. That's not what this is about. If you want to justify this article's existence, or its merge elsewhere, why not provide some of the missing, published sources instead? Wesley 17:36, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Aha; I am only stating things as I commonly have studied and heard of them. I do not propose to limit and debar other positions on this issue, therefore I am not endorsing POV.  I actually requested a balanced edition of said issue, if you'd be so kind as to reread my previous statement here.  The various sources I have seen via Google search appear legitimate and/or sometimes biased(as anything!), but it is not my position to judge the appropriateness of the topic.  We are not to cast a POV on the issue in favour or against, just to deliver as any messenger does.  The existing article on the History of Christianity provides the Persian background but does not give adequate coverage of the Egyptian or Hellenic origins, which are quite prominent.  After all, Christianity had most of its evolution in non-Persian areas of the Mediterranean Sea.  Tell me, how many Persian people are prominent in the Christian world throughout its history?  What fractionary comparison can you draw that factually examines the amount and shows a majority of Persian elements in Christianity, compared to the vast amount of Greek specialty(as written, verified and generally known amongst the entire Christian populace) and the nursery of Christianity itself in Egypt via the Old Testament(even Jesus's infancy was spent in Egypt, in safety from Herod!)?  Please, where is the background of Christianity in Persia besides 19th century racial studies?  Like I've said, the Noahide classification thing has been similarly discredited and its density in weight grew most during that era for racist Indo-Aryan theories.  Borderer 22:59, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * It used to contain detail about Horus - the most frequently cited source, but TBSDY just deleted it out of inability to provide a counter argument and unwillingness to face truth. --supposedly by User:CheeseDreams

 * It got removed because no sources were cited. Perhaps had you given your sources I would not have been able to remove it as original research. If someone would like to provide sources and write from a neutral POV, then this would no longer be a problem. Incidently: that's what happens when sources aren't cited in controversial articles. The material gets removed after a certain period of time when it becomes clear that the authors won't provide their reference material. That you were banned from directly editing the article should not have stopped you providing us your sources on the talk page, and had you edited to form consensus you would not have been banned by the ArbCom from editing articles related to Christianity now, hmmm? - Ta bu shi da yu 00:41, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Yeah, Horus Krst, Jesus Christ and Hare Krishna seem to be the most up and current issues regarding syncretism. It's not a neologism, but an analysis of the issues as they overlap eachother.  Borderer 15:15, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

CheeseDreams, it's not too late to provide real references via this page or the Talk pages of the related articles. That would be a strong argument in favor of keeping this material; their absence is a strong reason to delete it. In the meantime, please restrain yourself from personal attacks. Wesley 01:08, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * You are a fine tool. Thank God for your thuggery!  Borderer 15:15, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * You're getting dangerously close to making personal attacks. - Ta bu shi da yu 15:20, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * You're close to suppression of protests. I suppose you make your move right now, before the protests draw in other supporters and threaten your stranglehold on the situation.  You've got a divine mission to control the flow of information and keep it molded to your content.  I've got full confidence that you have it in you to be a "Master of Reality".  I'm a real fan, oh and I'm a Quaker too.  I hope you find that offensive as well, so much that you boil with the utmost prejudice and seek to ban me as well.  Good luck and uh, sleep tight with one eye open.  I'm sure the boogeyman is out to get you and disturb your sense of control over legitimate content, since you appear to have a PhD. in Nazism.  Borderer 15:48, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * In what way am I suppressing protests? What, because I don't like to be insulted to my face? So far I haven't blocked you, nor have I locked this page, nor have I deleted any text in the talk pages! So how am I suppressing protests? And exactly what are you protesting? It's not clear to me. As for saying I have a PhD. in Nazism: that's a vile and disgusting thing for you to say. I'd also like to know where you get off that I've "banned" people. CD is currently not editing from her account because - well, because of her own behaviour. It might interest you that she won't be able to get back into her account, but not because of anything that admins have done (like block her), but because she posted her user password to a known troll's account! An admin found this, got into the account before the troll could and changed that password. He has a standing offer of giving her the new password for ONE of her accounts (she had 5 with the same password!) if she can verify she is who she says she is. So who's fault is it that CheeseDreams can no longer edit on Wikipedia? Mine? I don't think so. So why don't you get a clue and do some basic research before you a) make personal attacks against myself, and b) accuse me of admin abuse? Sheesh. - Ta bu shi da yu 16:37, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Regretably, at this moment she cannot. Because of her bad faith editing, she is now under a temporary injunction. She can only edit her own userpages. She is not allowed to edit any other pages. Also, I am asking whether this really is CheeseDreams, as the editor is posting from an anonymous IP address. Is it fair to assume that this editor really is CheeseDreams? I cannot be certain that it isn't someone trying to impersonate her and cause her problems. I am also aware that it may well be CheeseDreams, however we have no way of knowing now that she has released her password to the general public and forced us to change it. Really though, this isn't our problem. This was a problem that was caused by CheeseDreams when she revealed her password for all the world to see! I'd personally like to see her only edit from one account, and until she grabs her new password from (I think) Slrubenstein, there is no way of knowing who she is. It is unfortunate that she has caused herself these problems, but that's what happens when you try to be deliberately disruptive! - Ta bu shi da yu 01:17, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Look at you gloat so obnoxiously. I bet you've been dogging her for so long now and that your plans for complete destruction of her work is at a nigh close.  Bravo!  Bravo!  Bravo!  I salute your efforts to discredit and diminish the editorial faculties of this nice individual.  All she has to do is look at Wikipedia's disclaimer about editing:  "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it."  Thank you for your fundementalist(or skeptic) tirade TBSDY!  Any time I need your help suppressing uncomfortable knowledge that will threaten Wikipedia, I'll just holler!  That's right, you'll probably have this article deleted before she gets back!  Wondrous friend, I do agree that the title should be definitely changed but to really make amends in this situation; you need to demolish and erase all records of this, which includes getting CD permanently banned!  I'm sure it'll be a marvelous day when this is all over!  You'll have saved us all from the crackpots and only appropriate knowledge will be be acknowledged!  Send her to the Gulag!  Off to Bedlam!  Off with her head!  If you haven't noticed, it is only YOU persecuting this body of work and its chief architect.  Now that I've said this, you'll probably get your hopeful buddies to sic her(and/or me) too.  Being a vigilante is only necessary when somebody has broken the law and there are no policemen around.  If CD has done anything so harmful that is not commonly seen on Wikipedia as an inherent flaw in editing, then please say so now.  From what I have seen, CD has done no better or worse than the majority of Wikipedians.  Everybody has put up articles without sources at one time or another.  Every once in a while, somebody develops an obsession with the apparent mistakes of another user and goes witchfynding.  They burn Joan of Arc at the stake because her inspiration frightens them.  SO, Joan hears these voices and liberates France in the meanwhile but her countrymen dispose of her as she makes them feel uncomfortable by her eccentricity.  Well, CheeseDreams!  I fucking hate your guts!  You know that?  You offer no fucking benefit to this website!  You have no decency to boot!  I want to institute der Nacht und Nebel Erlass upon you for treason to Wikipedia's purpose!  Borderer 15:10, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Seriously, whatever. - Ta bu shi da yu 15:11, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * You are a holy roller on a high moral ground. I hope you win; so very, very much!  Borderer 15:15, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * FYI, Borderer, Ta bu shi da yu is an admin who has a solid history of responsible editing and consensus building here on Wikipedia and has the respect and support of many of his fellow admins. Religion is a subject that attracts editors with highly charged and often eccentric opinions on differing POVs. A conscientious admin's job isn't to suppress notable POV but rather to allow it to be reported as such, the operative word being "report." Editors on such contentious articles have to be prepared to cite their sources exhaustively when challenged to do so, as per established policy. Fire Star 15:52, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Just because an admin has people who agree, does not make him/her more important in the way of legitimate content than a simple editor who also has agreeable supporters. Truth is not a democracy!  Your supposition that his experience gives him infallibility is inherently ad hominem towards us lesser Wikipedian peons.  Make it NPOV, but do NOT delete the article.  Do NOT abuse your powers to appease your own perceptions and thereby push POV.  Wait for CD to come back.  When she does, I am more than willing to discuss with her about the sources and work with her to streamline the article.  I actually care about the content of this article, even if the lot of you do not.  Borderer 16:15, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, there's an arrogant attitude for you. "I know best about the content and none of the rest of you know anything, so clearly you are attacking me for being a peon". Now would you care to show me where I'm "abusing my admin powers" on this article? I haven't locked it, I haven't deleted it and I haven't blocked anyone associated with it other than CheeseDreams, and then only because of ArbCom decisions. I'm not holding my breath for CheeseDreams. She's already shown that she can't work well with others. I would have been more than happy to come to consensus and to help her verify her material. If I had better material and sources I'd even try to balance the article! A good example of how I've done this is to actually start an article on The Two Babylons (a very dodgy piece of text, I might say) by Alexander Hislop. After investigation by several Wikipedians, several misconceptions have been cleared up (like for instance stating that Hislop was a "scholar" - he wasn't. He was an Anglican minister who had studied basic Hebrew and Greek and had many misconceptions about ancient history). So I actually started to research the material and attempted to balance it up with (gasp!) facts. Like I've already said: you seem to have dived in here with a misconception that we are being unfair to CheeseDreams because she supports your POV. Nothing could be further from the truth. I suggest you investigate what really happened here before accusing others of nasty things like Nazism. Oh, and as for me being over the common rank and file: that's crap. If I step out of line too much then I'll get hauled back into line: probably by Jimbo himself. And I'd welcome feedback! I'm pretty much an open book when it comes to admin decisions. I tell people honestly why I did something, and if I make a mistake I try to fix the problem and apologise to the affected parties. I also try very hard not to make personal attacks. I suggest you do the same, because it's hard to debate facts with people who are attacking your personally (like you've done to me in our current conversation several times). - Ta bu shi da yu 16:30, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I never said I knew everything. I already stated that CD has opened my eyes to what info I've been looking for.  I have said that I don't like POV and in truth, her POV pisses me off because it seems that has gotten you to almost throw the article out.  I don't box people in to their failures to communicate.  I know that online, people often act differently.  Some forget that online communique demands the same level of decency as in person.  When I used to edit a lot from my personal studies online and from what I learned in schoolbooks, I gave people most likely the same attitude as CD.  When I'd get challenged, I'd smirk and write something obnoxious.  I've changed my attitude somewhat to be more responsible and I've intervened because I think I know what her problem is.  Your or anybody elses' perception of who is a scholar based on modern standards flys right in the face of historical ideas regarding such a status.  Back in those days, any learned man was a scholar but today we have higher expectations before we "give" a person an "important" label.  I think you know why I defended CD and attacked your assault of this article, so I'm not going to reargue the issue.  Borderer 19:24, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * My. I didn't say anyone was above anyone else, I said that someone was respected becuse they have shown themselves to be reasonable and conscientious, at least to me. That implies a burden of proof that someone else will have to meet to convince my colleagues and myself otherwise. "Consensus" applies to a willingness to compromise and adapt in the light of new evidence (if such is provided). I don't want to exacerbate any arguments here, we all want the best articles possible, but we also have to learn to share our toys. That being said, while the Truth is a fine subject for contemplation in a monastery, the encyclopaedia known as Wikipedia is a democracy, with rough guidelines set out by Jimbo Wales. That means that a majority does decide content, not any individual (hence the VfD debate in the first place) except possibly Jimbo because its his playground. As I've said to others, if that doesn't suit you, and there is no reason why it should, you are quite free to start your own website and decide on its content for yourself. Fire Star 16:44, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * FireStar, the comment wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Borderer. I'm flattered that you leapt to my defense in such a nice way! - Ta bu shi da yu 16:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I realised that, I'm sorry it may have seemed otherwise. I just wanted Borderer to know that it doesn't seem to outsiders like they (that pesky indeterminate gender third person pronoun again!) are being picked on arbitrarily, but rather that your concerns are indeed justified AFAIC as there are policies and procedures in place that should be followed if one's contributions here are to be realistically expected to stand for any length of time, especially under the glare of a VfD spotlight. Cheers, Fire Star 16:57, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I will not allow article content to be decided by democracy if it is untrue. Reinforcing ignorant POV by casual observers only considerate towards policy, really sets my hair on end.  Arbitrary administration is what pisses off Democrats about Bush's tenure and I voted for him, not against him.  I still stand by him, which is how I see you standing by Jimbo and what would aggravate people who rather care for true Democracy instead of political machinery.  Yeah, you've said the "start your own website" mantra, which I take as verification of a gang up on CD and my Devil's Advocacy.  In the interests of INFORMATION, I trust rule by force less than I do rule by intellectual direction, which is different with childrearing and public service of course.  Look at what you're doing when you shout policy, in order to be NPOV.  Somebody who catches onesself in the middle of hypocrisy and are able to admit it freely are those I trust most to administer, as they have it in their best interest to make sure they are entirely honest.  Sometimes the mechanics of a system only serves to hold down the good intent of simple people who recognise simple real things than contrived acculturations in bureaucracy.  Borderer 19:24, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * You do not have the ability to allow or disallow anything. If anyone continues to edit in opposition to a consensus after having been warned not to, then they can be temporarily blocked by an admin or permanently blocked by the Arbitration Committee as a troll or a vandal. An ultimatum by you is not convincing evidence of "intellectual direction," and you should know that your "Truth" is only as you and those who agree with you see it. Others' mileage will certainly vary, and you have to respect that. So that you know, I'm not a "casual observer," I am well versed in the documentary hypothesis and the history and theology of ancient and modern Israel as well as Christianity. As such, you should know that I find your present argumentive style as unbalanced and unconvincing as that of the aforementioned CD. You obviously care about the subject, your position can be presented and your energies be appreciated as long as you maintain civility and adhere to general NPOV policy. It isn't difficult to make people happy here, you just have to be scholarly, balanced and thorough in your presentation. Isn't that what we all want anyway? Fire Star 19:54, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I hope you know more than you claim. You apparently know not enough about this article besides how CD's POV is wrong.  If you know so much, then add and subtract the specific points rather than destroy the article.  Consensus will be achieved if you truly care for the content.  Borderer 00:50, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Now why would FireStar do that? They've already voted that the article should be deleted. Why would you spend time on something you don't want to have exist on Wikipedia in the first place? - Ta bu shi da yu 01:44, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I have made some edits to the article as requested by Borderer, to show what I mean. I still think the article is redundant and should be deleted, but now it will be much easier to merge if that is what is ultimately decided by the consensus. Fire Star 21:31, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Ooh, that's nice work Fire Star! Good job.  It might have taken me longer to flesh that out, since I'm a slow editor.  Why not call it Christian Syncretism?  I still disagree with some actions taken for the No Original Research rule, but I don't care to debate over these details that people will inevitably reedit back into the article in the future.  The formatting is shite and the article looks horrible, but the subject matter is just as important as similar pages talking about facets in other religions.  The article has a shitty title and should be Wikified.  It is salvageable, if labourious to undertake.  Just because it's not Wikified, doesn't mean it deserves to be destroyed.  That's because several pages sit like this on Wikipedia and they might deserve to be deleted as personal fluff for the nerds that I haven't heard of nor thought important enough to know.  We need a balance by adding serious academic topics and nonsense issues should be removed.  Thank you for your earnest work and you deserve something for it!  Borderer 22:28, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * You want people to be able to get to the background of an article. Some people will want to verify if the content is indeed correct or at least notable, other people will want to know where to find out more if the subject interests them. So solid, dispassionate documentation is the key to keeping an article on Wikipedia. Even if it is on an emotional or distasteful subject a neutral presentation keeps it encyclopaedic and lessens the chance that someone will object. Even when things don't go your way, remember that this is just a hobby for most of us, not life or death. A cool head, listening to your fellow editors and professional manners will go a long way towards defusing arguments and a good final result for everyone. Fire Star 03:17, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.