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National Democratic Party (Egypt)

The National Democratic Party (الحزب الوطني الديمقراطي), often referred to in Egypt as simply the National Party (الحزب الوطني), was the ruling political party in Egypt from 1978 to 2011. It was founded by President Anwar Sadat in 1978. The NDP wielded uncontested power in state politics, usually considered a de facto single party, with authoritarian characteristics,   inside an officially multi-party system, from its creation until the resignation of Sadat's successor Hosni Mubarak in response to the Egyptian Revolution of 2011.

The National Democratic Party was an authoritarian centrist party. From its inception, it was by far the most powerful of the parties to emerge from the Arab Socialist Union (ASU), the former ruling sole party since 1962, and was as such seen as its organic successor. In contrast to ASU's strong emphasis on Arab nationalism and Arab socialism (Nasserism), the NDP developed into a moderate centrist party. The NDP was a member of the Socialist International from 1989 until it was expelled in 2011 in response to the revolution. The party was dissolved on 16 April 2011 by court order, and its assets were transferred to the state.

Electoral system in Egypt under the NDP
The electoral system in Egypt, under which the National Democratic Party operated, did not meet internationally recognized standards of electoral democracies. According to the Freedom House, the political system was designed to ensure solid majorities for the ruling NDP at all levels of government. In 2009, Dr. Ali El Deen Hilal Dessouki, Media Secretary of the NDP, described Egypt as a "pharaonic" political system, and democracy as a long-term goal. Although former President Hosni Mubarak himself boasted shortly before his deposition from power that Egypt enjoys "all kinds of democracy," substantive democracy and civil liberties within the country remained elusive. In the 2000s, it was stated that "The truth of the matter is that participation and pluralism are now at lower levels than at any time since Mubarak assumed the presidency in the wake of Anwar Sadat's assassination."

In 2010, Freedom House ranked Egypt's Political Rights Score 6 and Civil Liberties Score 5, with 1 being the freest and 7 being the least free.

Until Mubarak's deposition, Egypt had operated under a "state of emergency" for all but five months since 1967, allowing the president to outlaw demonstrations, hold detainees indefinitely without trial, and issue law by decree. Generally, emergency law provides the government with the authority to control every level of political activity, including that within the confines of the formally defined political arena. The duration of the law is three years, but was routinely renewed. The trend began when President Gamel Abdel Nasser succeeded in establishing a state of emergency in 1956, following the invasion of Egypt by Britain, France, and Israel, and continued until 1963 on the basis of the continuing threat of an offensive against Egypt. Nasser declared another state of emergency in June 1967 because of the Six-Day War, which lasted through the War of Attrition, the October War, and the later years of Anwar El-Sadat's presidency, which were characterized by significant political, economic, and social upheaval and discontent. In total, the state of emergency declared during the 1967 war lasted for 13 years. After Sadat's assassination on 6 October 1981, his Vice-President and successor, Hosni Mubarak, declared another state of emergency, which he kept in place for the entire duration of his three decades in office.

President Mubarak argued in his Presidential Public Address in 1998 that the emergency law is required "in order to confront terrorism [and] protect democracy and stability." In practice, however, the law was used to not only control and contain terrorism, but to limit legitimate oppositional political activities. For example, campaign gatherings require prior permission from the Ministry of Interior under the emergency law. Thus, when a candidate plans to hold a public meeting, he must submit an application to the local police station stating details such as the date, location, and estimated size of the gathering. The application is then sent to the Ministry of Interior for consideration, and can be rejected.

The People's Assembly, which is usually characterized as the lower house of Egypt's quasi-bicameral legislature, is constitutionally empowered to question and even challenge presidential authority. However, that it chose not to do so cannot be attributed to the unanimous approval of presidential policies. In actuality, the People's Assembly was restricted to the role of rubber-stamping presidential authority because it is confined by presidential powers beyond its control. Under Article 152 of the 1971 Constitution, the president was able to have his proposals bypass the People's Assembly and have them endorsed directly through a referendum. Consequently, it is impossible for the Assembly to consider or reject the policy once approved in this manner.

The President of Egypt, however, rarely needed to resort to referendums except in circumstances where it is a formal requirement, such as initiating constitutional changes. Article 152 was seldom used because there was no reason to do so. The majority of legislation passed through the People's Assembly was initiated by the President, and almost all of the President's proposals were passed by the mandated two-thirds' majority with little to no deliberation at all.

Academics and analysts observed that talk of democracy and liberal reforms from Egypt's leaders was spurred by a desire to garner internal and external legitimacy; however, these reforms lacked the substance needed to open the way for meaningful democratic change. Dr Augustus Richard Norton of Boston University wrote in 2005 that:

"Certainly, the discovery of a democratic vocabulary does not stem from idealistic conversion, but from pragmatic conclusions about the need to relieve pressure and vent political steam, as well as the shrew recognition that democratization wins favour. ... The new language of politics in the Middle East, talks about participation, cultural authenticity, freedom and even democracy. No doubt, the defining flavor of the 1990s is participation."

Elections and apparent multi-party political systems offer authoritarian governments this opportunity for "democracy by decree." However, regimes that adopt these (electoral) systems, called competitive authoritarianism or illiberal democracy, "tend to impose a number of constraining conditions in order to ensure that the arena of the political contest remains under their stringent control. The laws regulating the licensing of opposition parties, for example, always demand a public commitment to the existing political order and the substantive acts of the regime." These were the conditions under which the National Democratic Party in Egypt were formed in 1978, lasting until its dissolution on 16 April 2011 by court order.

Gamal Abdel Nasser (1952–1970)
Prior to the introduction of a multi-party political system in Egypt, there was single-party rule (Although there was political party life before 1953 during the Kingdom of Egypt). Gamel Abdel Nasser rejected the idea of establishing alternative political parties at the establishment of the Republic of Egypt in 1953, instead opting to establish a single-party system in which interest groups were organized along functional lines and co-opted within the framework of an official representative body. This body was known as the Liberation Rally (LR) from 1952–1956, the National Union (NU) from 1956–1962, and the Arab Socialist Union (ASU) from 1962–1976. President Nasser's weariness of the multi-party system instituted by the colonial powers is rooted in his experience of British-dominated Egypt, where Britain manipulated the political parties and voting mechanisms to secure policies favourable to the British and the local Egyptian feudal system. As a result, revolutionary leaders were wary of continuing this system. President Nasser in 1957 said publicly:

"Can I ask you a question: what is democracy? We were supposed to have a democratic system during the period 1923 to 1953. But what good was this democracy to our people? I will tell you. Landowners and Pasha... used this kind of democracy as an easy tool for the benefit of a feudal system... the peasants would cast their votes according to the instructions of their masters... I want to liberate the peasants and workers both socially and economically... I want the peasants and workers to say 'yes' and 'no' without any of this affecting their livelihood or their daily bread. This, in my view, is the basis of freedom and democracy."

The Liberation Rally was not intended to serve as a political party, although it functioned as a party for all intents and purposes. In fact, the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC), and in particular President Nasser, stressed the contrary. The new regime's perspective was to harness all leaders' energy and not dissipate it through parliamentary debates. The Liberation Rally's motto was "United, Order, and Work," intended to create a "popular base for the new regime, to mobilize and unite people around the new elite and confront and neutralize former politicians."

Liberation Rally was dissolved in 1956 and reorganized as the National Union party to accommodate President Nasser's growing pan-Arab rhetoric. This shift coincided with the establishment of a new constitution and with the union of Syria and Egypt in 1958, which formed the United Arab Republic (UAR). Between 1949 and 1955, Syria had witnessed five changes of leadership, and by the late summer of 1957, the country was on the verge of complete collapse. The communists were among the most organized political actors in Syria in the late 1950s, leading to increased fears of a communist takeover. To prevent this outcome, the Syrian Government under the Ba'ath Party requested full unification with Egypt. Nasser was reluctant to enter a rushed union, but given the severity of the concerns regarding the Syrian communists, agreed to the establishment of a federation between Egypt and Syria, with its capital in Cairo, administered by the same institutions that governed Egypt. The agreement to establish the United Arab Republic was made on 1 February 1958. The National Union party was designed and used by Nasser to include and co-opt Syrian political actors into the Egyptian state apparatus.

The Egyptian union with Syria unravelled on the morning of 28 September 1961, following a military coup. The coup leaders also expelled all Egyptians from the country. Nasser believed that one of the reasons why the UAR failed was because the degree of social reform necessary for such an ambitious project had not matriculated. Therefore, he increased the socialist nature of his government's policies. In 1962, Nasser disbanded the National Union and replaced it with the Arab Socialist Union to reflect this change in direction.

The names of these organizations – Liberation Rally, National Union, and the Arab Socialist Union – were significant. In each case, the word 'party' was scrupulously avoided, given its powerful connotations within Egypt of division and lack of national purpose. Therefore, the single party in Egypt was never conceived of as being an active institution with decision-making powers; rather, it was considered a civic association to mobilize the people. "Indeed, it was viewed more as a means of mobilizing political participation than as a vehicle for popular participation."

Anwar Sadat (1970–1981)
Gamel Nasser died while holding office in 1970, and his Vice-President and successor, President Anwar Sadat, began a four-phased approach to introducing a multi-party system: he issued the 1974 October Paper; he established (platforms); he formed the Misr Party (EASP); and finally in 1978 he formed the National Democratic Party. In the October Paper, Sadat reaffirmed his commitment to establishing a constitutional democratic government, preserving Egypt's socialist character, and rejecting the "theory of the single party" and acknowledged calls for a multi-party system. The October Paper also announced Egypt's new economic policy as combining Arab capital, Western technology, and the state's abundant resources in an effort to transform the Egyptian economy. The new economic policy became known as al-Infitah al-Iqtisadi (the Economic Opening, or Open Door policy).

President Sadat's October Paper and political reform were motivated by self-preservation, not democratic idealism. Perceiving the Arab Socialist Union as a potential threat to his Presidency, Sadat divided the ASU into three ideological platforms. He then disbanded the ASU entirely in 1977 and endowed these bodies the official status of political parties in preparation for upcoming parliamentary elections. On 9 July 1978, Sadat announced the formation of his own political party drawing from the centre wing of the ASU, the National Democratic Party. It was formally approved on 2 October 1978. Soon thereafter, some 250 MPs of the People's Assembly hurried to join the President's new party. Dr. Maye Kassem of the American University in Cairo summarizes the transition from the ASU to the NDP thusly:

"This move was undoubtedly related to the fact that the President's party would ensure for its members' direct access to state resources. The main point, however, is that since most of the NDP's members were originally members of the disbanded ASU, its creation was more the result of presidential instigation than of pressures from an organized constituency. Put differently, the mass conversion from 'socialist' to 'democratic' ideology implied not only the desire to remain under direct presidential patronage but also that the emergence of the ruling NDP was no more reflective of constituency interests than the ASU was under Nasser's party system."

The left wing of the ASU would become the National Progressive Unionist Party, while the right wing would become the Liberal Socialists Party. The Committee for the Affairs of Political Parties, commonly known as the Political Parties Committee (PPC), was created after the implementation of the multi-party system to both regulate party activities in addition to license new parties within the guidelines of Law 40. Law 40 empowered a committee chaired by the NDP – the speaker of the Shura Council – to suspend other parties' activities "in the national interest." It was composed of six regime-linked individuals: the minister of interior, the minister of justice, the state minister for the affairs of the People's Assembly, and three judicial figures appointed by the president's ministers.

Since its creation in 1978, the NDP held no less than three-quarters of the seats in the People's Assembly. The ideology of the party remained purposefully vague and open to interpretation. As a result, the President and his government could pass any legislation without appearing to compromise the Party's "official" standing.

Opposition to Sadat increased from 1977 onward in the wake of his economic reforms and peace initiative with Israel. Sadat reacted with repression and open hostility toward the opposition. In response to the 1977 bread riots, Sadat said that people should "understand that democracy has its own teeth. The next time I'm going to be ten times as ruthless." In 1980 he declared Law 95, known as the Law of Shame, which criminalized many forms of expression. In September 1981, he arrested more than 1,000 of his critics from across the political spectrum. This crackdown is often cited in conjunction with Egypt's peace with Israel as a step leading to his assassination by Islamists on 6 October 1981.

NDP under Hosni Mubarak (1981–2011)
After President Sadat's assassination in 1981, his successor Hosni Mubarak continued to request and obtain the People Assembly's approval to maintain the emergency law under the premise of threats of terrorism and violence. Despite the emergency law, political party life during the 1980s was relatively active, with the re-emergence of the Wafd Party, and the participation of the Muslim Brotherhood via alliances and Muslim Brotherhood candidates running as independents. Elections in 1984 and 1987 produced parliaments with opposition representation of about 20 percent. Unfortunately, the combination of increasing Islamist opposition groups and violence by extremist organizations during the 1990s spurred legislation that hurt all Egyptians' ability to express themselves politically via formal institutions or more informal means. The 1993 Syndicates Law, 1995 Press Law, and 1999 Nongovernmental Associations Law hampered freedoms of association and expression by imposing new regulations and draconian penalties on violations. As a result, by the late 1990s, parliamentary politics had become virtually irrelevant, and alternative avenues for political expression were curtailed as well.

The Political Parties Committee continued in form and purpose under Mubarak. Only two parties (the National Accord established in 2000 and the Democratic Front in 2007) were approved by the PPC under the Mubarak presidency. It was possible to appeal a PPC decision to the Higher Administrative Court for approval. Ten political parties under Mubarak succeeded in gaining legal status through this route. However, that only ten cases in a period of over twenty years have won such court cases indicates that the PPC was a major barrier to obtaining legal status as a political party in Egypt.

The National Democratic Party and parliamentary politics rebounded in insignificance in 2000 as a result of speculation among Egyptians about presidential succession. Mubarak was then 71 years old and had just begun his fourth six-year term in 1999. It appeared to many that Gamal Mubarak, President Hosni Mubarak's younger son, a banker by profession, was being groomed for the presidency. He began taking an increasingly active role in politics, first as a spokesman for business interests and youth as a nonpartisan activist and then later in the NDP.

President Mubarak announced parliamentary elections in 2000 and pledged to uphold a Supreme Constitutional Court ruling calling for judicial supervision of elections. Although the 2000 elections were the first to be supervised by judges, and by most accounts somewhat cleaner and more credible than the 1990 and 1995 elections, there were still widespread arrests of Muslim Brotherhood candidates and campaign workers, as well as intimidation of voters outside polling stations. Surprisingly, the NDP suffered an embarrassing defeat at the hands of independent candidates, who secured more than half of the 444 seats up for election versus the NDP's 39 percent. However, 181 of the independents were "NDP independents" – members who had run in the elections despite not having received the party's nomination. These 181 independents and an additional 35 actual independents joined the NDP after winning, giving the party a combined 88 percent parliamentary majority.

The poor performance of the NDP in the 2000 parliamentary elections afforded Gamal Mubarak an opportunity to assert himself in party politics. He proposed overhauling the NDP in an effort to make it look and function more like a modern political party rather than a tool for recruiting support for the regime in exchange for government patronage. Michele Dunne, editor of the Carnegie Endowment's Arab Reform Bulletin, wrote in 2006:

"Drawing on largely the model of the British Labour Party, Gamal Mubarak designed and led a new Policy Secretariat that began to produce policy papers on a wide range of economic, political, and foreign affairs topics. He recruited a circle of young, reform-minded businesspeople and technocrats, some of whom were later placed in cabinet or party leadership positions. By 2004, Gamal Mubarak's imprint on the NDP was apparent, with the appointment of a cabinet full of his proteges (among them Prime Minister Ahmad Nazif) in July and the holding of a slickly package, media-friendly party conference in September showcasing the NDP's new image. Hosni Mubarak's presidential campaign in summer 2005 – which featured Western-style stumping, clear promises for policy changes, and an attempt to show that the party was not using government resources in the campaign – showed the touch of Gamal and his circle."

Gamal Mubarak also used the NDP annual conferences as an opportunity to woo established political elites of Egypt. One analyst wrote that the real story of the 19–21 September NDP conference of 2006 was not the carefully packaged briefings offered by party members but "Gamal Mubarak's increasing political weight and seemingly unstoppable ascent towards the presidency." The re-imaging of the NDP had little effect on its mass appeal among Egyptians. Parliamentary elections of 2005 produced similarly disappointing results for the regime. NDP candidates won only 34 percent of the vote and again, it was only after co-opting "NDP Independents" and actual independents that the party was able to secure its two-thirds majority. Although opposition candidates only secured 28 percent of the People's Assembly, 2005 was a watershed moment for Egyptian politics, as opposition candidates were overwhelmingly elected from the Muslim Brotherhood rather than secular parties. The Muslim Brotherhood-affiliated candidates won a historic 88 seats in the legislature.

The Muslim Brotherhood was officially banned in Egypt but continued to run brotherhood-affiliated candidates as independents in local and parliamentary elections since 1984. Since its victory in 2005, the Muslim Brotherhood bloc used the People's Assembly in Egypt as a soapbox for criticizing the regime and as an engine for promoting its ideas. They also took their positions as MPs seriously, and through this effort, generated more legitimacy for the People's Assembly as an institution, as opposed to the 1990s when legislative politics were shallow and stagnant.

Despite speculation on Gamal Mubarak succeeding his father as president, Ali Eldin Hilal, the head of media for the NDP, said in an interview with the American Arab channel al-Hurra, "The candidate [in 2011] of the National Democratic Party will be President Mohammed Hosni Mubarak... This is the will of the leadership of the party." Hilal stated that the announcement would only be officially made a month or two before the elections in the autumn of 2011. President Mubarak would be 83 at the time of the election and 89 at the end of another six-year term.

2010 parliamentary elections
The National Democratic Party of Egypt secured 420 of the 508 seats in the country's December 2010 elections for the lower house of parliament, the Majlis al-Shaab. The Muslim Brotherhood, which held roughly a fifth (88 seats) of parliament seats before the elections, won only one seat. Many human rights groups and NGOs decried the elections as fraudulent. The United States and the European Union also criticized the poll. The regime widely viewed the elections as a tightening of power in preparation for the following year's presidential elections.

In the first round of voting, the NDP won 209 of 211 seats. The Wafd Party won the other two seats, down from five in the prior parliament. After the near sweep of the first round of voting, both the Muslim Brotherhood and the Wafd Party withdrew from the second round of voting and boycotted them, citing fraud and voter intimidation. Egyptian rights groups called for the results to be annulled, and Amnesty International said that at least eight people had died in election-related violence.

Egyptian Revolution of 2011
Major protests erupted against the ruling government of Egypt on 25 January 2011 (alongside the wider Arab Spring), at the time dubbed the Day of Rage, led largely by the country's youth through social media websites such as Facebook and Twitter. Another day of rage was planned soon thereafter for Friday, 28 January. Traditional opposition, including the country's Muslim Brotherhood, asked their supporters to join in protest after Friday prayers. In preparation for potentially massive protests, the ruling party attempted to cut off internet and phone access (mobile and land-line).

Protests continued as planned, despite a government ban on demonstrations and an overnight curfew imposed. Tens of thousands of protesters took to the streets. During the protests, the NDP headquarters in Cairo was set ablaze and destroyed.

On 5 February, it was reported that Mubarak resigned as chairperson of the NDP, but it was later announced that "Al Arabiya television retracts its earlier report that Hosni Mubarak resigned"; however, his son Gamal and other top officials had resigned from its central committee. Hossam Badrawi, seen as a liberal, took over as secretary-general.

On 11 February, facing ever-increasing public opposition and strong hints of serious disquiet within the Egyptian military, Hosni Mubarak resigned as President of Egypt. On the same day, Hossam Badrawi resigned from his position as secretary-general and from the party less than a week after taking office.

Dissolution
Upon Hosni Mubarak's resignation, several NDP officials and members resigned following the filing of a number of lawsuits calling for the party's dissolution. On 12 April, in what was considered a surprise move, Talaat Sadat, nephew of former Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, who was not a party member and who had been long considered an opposition member, was selected as the new party chairman.

Following his appointment, Sadat issued multiple statements declaring his intent on "cleaning" the party of its corrupt officials and party members and that the party name would be changed to the "New National Party" to reflect the party's new age. The party even declared that it would adopt the ideals and goals of the recent Egyptian revolution in its party platform.

However, on 16 April 2011, the NDP was dissolved by court order and its assets were ordered to be handed over to the government. In the parliamentary elections that followed the revolution, some former members established new parties, popularly termed or "remnants" of the old regime.

Former members of the party founded the Coalition of the People's Representatives, which was going to run for seats in the next parliamentary election; the members of the coalition instead formed a party called the We Are the People Party. The Cairo Court for Urgent Matters banned former NDP members from taking part in elections on 6 May 2014, though a member of a committee that was revising parliamentary laws (named Mahmoud Fawzy) stated that the law only bans those who are convicted of tax evasion and political corruption. The ruling barring former NDP members from taking part in elections was overturned by the Cairo Court for Urgent Matters on 14 July 2014.

Ideology
The ideology of the NDP was vague, with stated goals of both social justice, and market reform.

The party ceased to be even a left-of-centre social-democratic party shortly after its formation, drifting to the right and becoming a centrist "catch-all/big tent" party of power for members whose ideologies came from all over the political spectrum. Despite this and its increasingly authoritarian bent, the NDP was a member of the Socialist International up until 31 January 2011, when the embattled party was ousted and expelled from the group.

title: National Democratic Party (Egypt)


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Clodhopper

Clodhopper may refer to:

 * Clodhopper (candy)
 * The Clodhopper, a 1917 American comedy drama film
 * Clodhopper, a dune buggy body by Fiberfab
 * Clodhopper, a 1997 album by Glueleg
 * "Clodhopper", a song by Th' Legendary Shack Shakers from the 2003 album Cockadoodledon't
 * "Clodhopper", a song by Radarmaker from the 2006 album Drawn like Spires

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Clodhopper


text: Category:Cemeteries in the Czech Republic


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Me so horny

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was keep. -- AllyUnion (talk) 06:39, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Me so horny
Wikipedia is not a repository of triva--nixie 03:53, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, trivial, article as it stands is un-encyclopaedic. Megan1967 04:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Me So Horny redirects here. We might as well redirect them both to As Nasty As They Wanna Be, and merge the relevant information from here. (Something could also merge to Full Metal Jacket, but redirect there wouldn't be appropriate.) I'm not convinced the redirect-here at Me love you long time should exist at all. Samaritan 05:35, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Capitalistroadster, may you motor on forever. Strong keep now. Samaritan 16:19, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with As Nasty... if necessary (the later animated references noted undoubtedly originate from the 2 Live Crew album anyway. Alternately, if there's an article on racist jokes, statements, or stereotypes, it might be worth noting there. 23skidoo 05:41, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment This was originally proposed as a speedy delete, but didn't really meet the criteria; it was not patent nonsense and context was provided (the movie Full Metal Jacket was mentioned) and notability asserted . In cases like this I sometimes remove the speedy notice and replace it with a VfD; however, in this case Google showed a fairly impressive number of hits which left me unconvinced that a VfD would succeed.  Therefore I merely cleaned it up and added more context  and notified the speedy proposer that she could submit it for VfD, which she has now done. -- Curps 05:57, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * There are 60,000 hits for "me so horny", and if you filter out all pages that mention "2 Live Crew" or "Full Metal Jacket" you still get 9000 hits (Google search). Some of these are merely phrases from sentences like "it made me so horny"; however if do the equivalent search for "me love you long time" again filtering out pages that mention "2 Live Crew" or "Full Metal Jacket" you still get 4000 hits (Google search).  So it seems the phrase did indeed enter the vernacular and is sufficiently notable (and the fact that episodes of South Park and Family Guy cited the phrase indicates that viewers of such popular culture are familiar with it).  Other  popular phrases that have gained sufficient notability are present in Wikipedia, for instance Let's roll, which has its own page rather than a redirect to September 11, 2001 attacks.  Wikipedia also has articles on silly phrases like All your base are belong to us and Every time you masturbate... God kills a kitten and Hacked By Chinese! that attained notability. Finally, the phrase "me love you long time" was apparently widely used in massage parlors in Vietnam during the Vietnam War  and so is not merely some scriptwriter's invention. So I suppose this is a very long-winded Keep vote. -- Curps 05:57, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Note the original author created this page as Me love you long time, but I moved it to Me so horny. -- Curps 06:00, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I oppose deletion, but am not in strong support of it's continued existance either. Perhaps merging into Full Metal Jacket would be best, but I don't see why it can't just have it's own page. -SocratesJedi | Talk 06:03, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * This is a tricky case. Certainly the term "me so horny" has become a well recongized meme, but I'm not sure that automatically makes it a worthy article in an encyclopedia. Then again, there is tons of complete crap that has been made into articles. Perhaps the best thing to do is make it into an article about the song (retitled as "Me So Horny"), and within that article mentioning Full Metal Jacket and the phrase's popularity elsewhere. -R. fiend 06:53, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Socially and culturally notable. --Centauri 07:15, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Un-encyclopaedic. JimmyShelter 08:28, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Extreme keep, agree with Centauri. —RaD Man (talk) 09:04, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - I have rewritten the article so it refers to the song incorporating the material about the catchphrase, Full Metal Jacket and incorporating info on its chart success, the controversy over the lyrics and the obscenity trial in 1990. Capitalistroadster 09:52, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * PS Should be renamed as "Me So Horny" Capitalistroadster 09:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Definitely Keep - The article refers to a real song by the controversial rap band 2 Live Crew and clearly, correctly and without bias covers it's history and the controversy surrounding it. Plus, I've seen more deletion worthy nonsense being accepted as legitimate wikipedia articles, so therefore this should stay too.  if not, then all those articles on porn stars and highly dubious articles and entire lists like "fictional religions inspired by brands of alien underwear on science fiction soap operas directed by one-eyed bedwetting directors with excessive ear hair" should also go by the same token.
 * Above edit by User:Themarcuscreature -- Curps 10:19, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Definitely Keep - important cultural history
 * Above edit by User:63.202.174.23 -- Curps 10:19, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Extreme Keep - It is a legitimate article, and legitimate articles deserve to be on Wikipedia. Scott Gall 10:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Wikipedia is a repository of just this kind of trivia. This entry exactly hits the right tone. --Wetman 10:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I can hardly believe this is on VfD.... Phils 12:02, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Encyclopedic topic, article well above average. Agree that the article name should be capitalised, to match the song title Me So Horny. Andrewa 12:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course keep it. Everyking 13:39, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep notable phrase (I've heard it referenced many times outside of Full Metal Jacket) and the song is notable too. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 13:40, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - Speaking as a reclusive geek from a non-English-speaking country who's still familiar with the phrase, it appears pretty notable (sadly enough). --Kizor 14:06, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, good article about a song and a catchphrase. bbx 15:29, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, far from trivia, it is 80s cultural history. Stbalbach 17:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I kind of wish people would read through the previous votes before saying things like "I can't believe this is on VFD". The original article was quite bad.  Only encyclopedic improvements (primarily by Capitalistroadster) made this worth keeping.  Keep updated article.  -- Plutor 17:27, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Original article link above now broken by move, it was at . -- Curps 02:47, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - Cultural important, relavent and interesting. --Froggy 17:36, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. On the contrary, Wikipedia IS a repository of trivia.  This is precisely the sort of information people seek from Wikipedia.  IMHO, this was a bad faith listing: over 60,000 hits on google and the original stub never was a qualified deletion candidate to begin with.  In its present state, you'd have to be out of your mind to delete this.  Once again, VfD is not clean up... Keep and may this article continue to enjoy further organic growth.  GRider\talk 17:44, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. If nothing else, the widely-published controversy over the song makes it notable. --FOo 17:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep — J3ff 23:29, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Clear keep as rewritten, but should be "Me So Horny". -- Jmabel | Talk 00:47, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep vfd sucky sucky ... me love article long time.  ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 06:53, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, valid and known meme. Radiant! 10:33, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I didn't know how these phrases got so widespread, nor the significance of the song (leading to a Supreme Court case). --Ben Kovitz 02:11, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. —Mar·ka·ci: 2005-02-13 02:46 Z
 * Keep This phrase saved my life. --Jscott 13:22, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Me keep you long time. Carrp | Talk 04:37, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep! Extremely notable (and notorious) song. Original article was aparently about the catchphrase...oh okay. --b. Touch 18:33, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/French fry car

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. Article speedy deleted as vandalism. Joyous 23:49, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

French fry car
From the people who brought you Pond muck car. Uncle G 03:54, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)
 * Comment: Running your diesel car on vegetable oil can get you in trouble with the tax authorities. Kappa 04:50, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Really? Where? Our article Biodiesel suggests that in the U.S. at least it's a way to get tax credits. If this is inaccurate, could you correct that article? --FOo 18:03, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * In some parts of England it's illegal due to the alleged bad food smell. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 19:34, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Nothing to do with the smell, simply a requirement to pay fuel duty. Rich Farmbrough 19:18, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: As I've said elsewhere, this is not biodiesel as that article defines it. Vote elsewhere. Andrewa 19:24, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, expand. This type of car does exist, running on cooking grease and oil . Megan1967 04:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * If it's kept, doesn't it need a different title? Maybe not, 78 google hits for "French fry car" Kappa 06:03, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the title needs to be changed, but perhaps it would be better to merge it as a heading under Waste vegetable oil. Megan1967 00:57, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Definitely shouldn't be under this title, as it isn't potato matter that powers the car, it is the vegetable oil. In the UK, it's legal as long as you pay the duty. The motorist must get permission from customs and excise officers before they start using vegetable oil and keep an accurate record of the amount used. Average Earthman 09:57, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and cleanup. My first reaction was that surely this was all covered already under biodiesel, but investigation suggests that this is a slightly different emerging technology that we don't yet cover by any other name. Discuss the name on the talk page. Andrewa 11:26, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect to straight vegetable oil, and cleanup (change of vote). The final result is the same. Both the SVO and biodiesel articles need serious work, as is demonstrated by the fact that several people voting here still seem under the misapprehension that they are the same thing. Andrewa 19:24, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * It isn't anything new, it's vegetable oil. They just use it to fry french fries first. Running a diesel engine on vegetable oil isn't new at all. See Waste vegetable oil. Actually, merge to Waste vegetable oil and delete. Average Earthman 12:43, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with anything more sensibly titled.--Wetman 11:31, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 13:43, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Nothing here that isn't already at biodiesel, it appears, and the article is not terribly encyclopedic: "In the future, french fry chefs might start owning cars like that; and it might change the way they think about working at a restaurant." WTF? delete or redirect without merge. -R. fiend 19:06, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Biodiesel, a well-written article that Taxman is working up to feature status, and discusses the use of waste vegetable oil as fuel. - Satori 20:12, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Biodiesel a more appropriate article. There's no information here really worth preserving, but the "French fry car" has actually received a decent amount of press coverage under that name (even if, as Average Earthman points out, it's not the most accurate name.) -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:34, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect either to "biodiesel" or "waste vegetable oil." It's true that running a diesel on vegetable oil gives off a telltale odor of cooking.  It's how the cops in the UK nailed drivers who attempted to skirt the tax on diesel fuel.  In fact, when Rudolf Diesel demonstrated his engine for the first time in public, it was running on vegetable oil as a way of showing that it could run on practically any fuel. - Lucky 6.9 00:18, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to biodiesel. Rossami (talk) 23:34, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: If it were to be a redirect, surely it should be to straight vegetable oil, which is where this technology is currently discussed. The vehicles in question do not use transesterised fuel as described in the biodiesel article. No change of vote. Andrewa 09:49, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to straight vegetable oil. Johntex 18:30, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Deleted as vandalism, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress/Long_term_alerts#Mr._Suffix_.28Neologisms.29]. Mikkalai 05:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text: Category:Welsh literary critics

title: Category:Welsh literary critics


text:
User:Tydaj

Fun Facts

 * I hate cars (and all related issues).
 * I enjoy paradoxes.
 * If I had a time machine my first stop would be the 1920s.
 * I have the sleep schedule of an old man.
 * Fanatic non-religionists/atheists annoy me just as much as Christian proselytizers. Some things in life just can't be explained logically.
 * I don't believe in Wikibreaks. Check my contributions to see whether I'm active.
 * I don't believe in aliens, but I do believe in Sasquatch.
 * I occasionally get the Radetzky March stuck in my head.

Film

 * 1) Buffalo 66
 * 2) Big Fish
 * 3) I ♥ Huckabees
 * 4) Princess Mononoke
 * 5) Igby Goes Down
 * 6) Kill Bill
 * 7) Waking Life
 * 8) Elephant
 * 9) π
 * 10) True Romance

Food

 * 1) hummus
 * 2) tamago sushi
 * 3) spanakopita
 * 4) challah
 * 5) General Tso's chicken
 * 6) döner
 * 7) crab cakes
 * 8) German & Swiss chocolate
 * 9) fettuccine alfredo
 * 10) tempura

Literature

 * 1) This Side of Paradise by F. Scott Fitzgerald
 * 2) Raise High the Roof-Beam, Carpenters by J.D. Salinger
 * 3) Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut
 * 4) A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess
 * 5) Brave New World by Aldous Huxley
 * 6) The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway
 * 7) Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
 * 8) Flowers for Algernon by Daniel Keyes
 * 9) Nausea by Jean-Paul Sartre
 * 10) Smack by Melvin Burgess

Music

 * 1) Destroyer
 * 2) Belle and Sebastian
 * 3) Arcade Fire
 * 4) The Decemberists
 * 5) Radiohead
 * 6) Mates of State
 * 7) Wolf Parade
 * 8) Of Montreal
 * 9) The New Pornographers
 * 10) Neutral Milk Hotel

Wikipedia contributions
You can blame me for this:

Created articles
Celestial_Alphabet, Cooper River, Destroyer_(musician), Deutsche_Unitarier_Religionsgemeinschaft, Flower_Communion, Holy Fire, Judenhut, Lost_episode, Malachim, Meramec Caverns, Midlands%2C_South_Carolina, Non-canonical books referenced in the Bible, Orthopraxy, Passage Du Fleuve, Qingtan, Sandhills, Streiteben, Template:Middle Eastern deities, Yggdrasil (disambiguation)

Noteworthy article edits
Anansi, Animal worship, Cthulhu_Mythos, Enki, Ethan, Flag_of_South_Carolina, Gnosis, Hermes Trismegistus, Isle_of_Palms%2C_South_Carolina, Michael_Servetus, Religion, Triple Goddess, Unitarianism, Unitarian Universalism, Yggdrasil

Creation

 * Clem Snide
 * Tcho-Tcho
 * Unifon
 * Zanthu Tablets

Elaboration

 * Comparing Eastern and Western religious traditions
 * Numinous

Translation
from German Wikipedia
 * Rottenburg
 * Rudolstadt
 * Artern/Unstrut (Unstrut exists)
 * Assmannshausen
 * Bodenbach
 * Blankenburg
 * Bitsch
 * Arno von Salzburg
 * Balthasar Bekker
 * Michel Chevalier
 * Berka

On-going projects
(join in! we could use your help)
 * German-English_translation_requests
 * WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles

Licenses
With the exception of this user page any any talk pages...

de:User:Tydaj

title: User:Tydaj


text:
MPEG transport stream

MPEG transport stream (MPEG-TS, MTS) or simply transport stream (TS) is a standard digital container format for transmission and storage of audio, video, and Program and System Information Protocol (PSIP) data. It is used in broadcast systems such as DVB, ATSC and IPTV.

Transport stream specifies a container format encapsulating packetized elementary streams, with error correction and synchronization pattern features for maintaining transmission integrity when the communication channel carrying the stream is degraded.

Transport streams differ from the similarly named MPEG program stream in several important ways: program streams are designed for reasonably reliable media, such as discs (like DVDs), while transport streams are designed for less reliable transmission, namely terrestrial or satellite broadcast. Further, a transport stream may carry multiple programs.

Transport stream is specified in MPEG-2 Part 1, Systems, formally known as ISO/IEC standard 13818-1 or ''ITU-T Rec. H.222.0''.

Overview

A transport stream encapsulates a number of other substreams, often packetized elementary streams (PESs) which in turn wrap the main data stream using the MPEG codec or any number of non-MPEG codecs (such as AC3 or DTS audio, and MJPEG or JPEG 2000 video), text and pictures for subtitles, tables identifying the streams, and even broadcaster-specific information such as an electronic program guide. Many streams are often mixed together, such as several different television channels, or multiple angles of a movie.

Each stream is chopped into (at most) 188-byte sections and interleaved together. Due to the tiny packet size, streams can be interleaved with less latency and greater error resilience compared to program streams and other common containers such as AVI, MOV/MP4, and MKV, which generally wrap each frame into one packet. This is particularly important for videoconferencing, where large frames may introduce unacceptable audio delay.

Transport streams tend to be broadcast as constant bitrate (CBR) and filled with padding bytes when not enough data exists.

Packet
A network packet is the basic unit of data in a transport stream, and a transport stream is merely a sequence of packets. Each packet starts with a sync byte and a header, that may be followed with optional additional headers; the rest of the packet consists of payload. All header fields are read as big-endian. Packets are 188 bytes in length, but the communication medium may add additional information. The 188-byte packet size was originally chosen for compatibility with Asynchronous Transfer Mode (ATM) systems.

Packet identifier (PID)
Each table or elementary stream in a transport stream is identified by a 13-bit packet identifier (PID). A demultiplexer extracts elementary streams from the transport stream in part by looking for packets identified by the same PID. In most applications, time-division multiplexing will be used to decide how often a particular PID appears in the transport stream.

Programs
Transport stream has a concept of programs. Every program is described by a program map table (PMT). The elementary streams associated with that program have PIDs listed in the PMT. Another PID is associated with the PMT itself. For instance, a transport stream used in digital television might contain three programs, to represent three television channels. Suppose each channel consists of one video stream, one or two audio streams, and any necessary metadata. A receiver wishing to decode one of the three channels merely has to decode the payloads of each PID associated with its program. It can discard the contents of all other PIDs. A transport stream with more than one program is referred to as a multi-program transport stream (MPTS). A single program transport stream is referred to as a single-program transport stream (SPTS).

Program specific information
There are 4 program specific information (PSI) tables: program association (PAT), program map (PMT), conditional access (CAT), and network information (NIT). The MPEG-2 specification does not specify the format of the CAT and NIT.

PCR
To enable a decoder to present synchronized content, such as audio tracks matching the associated video, at least once each 100 ms, a program clock reference (PCR) is transmitted in the adaptation field of an MPEG-2 transport stream packet. The PID with the PCR for an MPEG-2 program is identified by the pcr_pid value in the associated PMT. The value of the PCR, when properly used, is employed to generate a system_timing_clock in the decoder. The system time clock (STC) decoder, when properly implemented, provides a highly accurate time base that is used to synchronize audio and video elementary streams. Timing in MPEG-2 references this clock. For example, the presentation time stamp (PTS) is intended to be relative to the PCR. The first 33 bits are based on a 90 kHz clock. The last 9 bits are based on a 27 MHz clock. The maximum jitter permitted for the PCR is.

Null packets
Some transmission schemes, such as those in ATSC and DVB, impose strict constant bitrate requirements on the transport stream. In order to ensure that the stream maintains a constant bitrate, a multiplexer may need to insert some additional packets. The PID 0x1FFF is reserved for this purpose. The null packets have a payload that is filled with 0xFF, and the receiver is expected to ignore its contents.

Use in digital video cameras
Transport Stream was originally designed for broadcast. Later it was adapted for use with digital video cameras, recorders and players by adding a 4-byte timecode (TC) field to the standard 188-byte packets, resulting in a 192-byte packet. This is what is informally called M2TS stream, commonly found in HDV cameras. The Blu-ray Disc Association calls it "BDAV MPEG-2 transport stream". JVC called it TOD when used in HDD-based camcorders like GZ-HD7. The timecode allows quick access to any part of the stream either from a media player, or from a non-linear video editing system. It is also used to synchronize video streams from several cameras in a multiple-camera setup.

Use in Blu-ray
Blu-ray Disc video titles authored with menu support are in the Blu-ray Disc Movie (BDMV) format and contain audio, video, and other streams in a BDAV container, which is based on the MPEG-2 transport stream format. Blu-ray Disc video uses these modified MPEG-2 transport streams, compared to DVD's program streams that don't have the extra transport overhead.

There is also the BDAV (Blu-ray Disc Audio/Visual) format, the consumer-oriented alternative to the BDMV format used for movie releases. The BDAV format is used on Blu-ray Disc recordable for audio/video recording. Blu-ray Disc employs the MPEG-2 transport stream recording method. This enables transport streams of a BDAV converted digital broadcast to be recorded as they are with minimal alteration of the packets. It also enables simple stream cut style editing of a BDAV converted digital broadcast that is recorded as is and where the data can be edited just by discarding unwanted packets from the stream. Although it is quite natural, a function for high-speed and easy-to-use retrieval is built in.

title: MPEG transport stream


text:
The Two of Us (1986 TV series)

The Two of Us is an ITV comedy series starring Nicholas Lyndhurst and Janet Dibley.

Overview
The series focused on Ashley and Elaine, an unmarried couple living together, at a time when this was becoming increasingly common in Britain, but still considered slightly controversial in some circles. It was produced by LWT.

While Ashley was keen for the pair to get married and would regularly propose, Elaine saw no reason to get married and was happy to keep her independence. Ashley's roguish grandfather Perce (played by Patrick Troughton, but later by Tenniel Evans after Troughton's death) was supportive of the couple, but Ashley's domineering mother (Jennifer Piercey) disapproved and constantly urged the pair to marry. Ashley's suppressed father (Paul McDowell) seemed less upset, but generally backed up his wife in the hope of a quiet life and the odd sherry.

After initially deciding to get married in the 1988 Christmas special, only to skip the wedding when their flight time for the honeymoon was brought forward, Ashley and Elaine finally married in the fourth series, with the pair focusing on their plans to start a family. In the final episode Elaine takes a pregnancy test, but the result is never revealed.

Two regional remakes were made of the series. In Germany, 41 episodes of Unter einer Decke (± Under one Roof) were produced in 1993/94, using most of the scripts from the original series, combined with new scripts from Germany and the Netherlands. The Dutch version Vrienden voor het leven (Friends for Life) had 65 episodes produced in 1990-95 of which 64 have been released on DVD in the Netherlands.

Cast

 * Nicholas Lyndhurst as Ashley Phillips
 * Janet Dibley as Elaine Walker
 * Patrick Troughton as Perce (Series 1)
 * Tenniel Evans as Perce (Series 2–4)
 * Paul McDowell as Mr Colin Phillips
 * Jennifer Piercey as Mrs Lilian Phillips
 * Francesca Hall as Karen

title: The Two of Us (1986 TV series)


text:
Category:Welsh non-fiction writers

Where possible Welsh non-fiction writers should be allocated to one or more of the subcategories, but writers who did not specialise in a particular field, or who wrote about a subject area which does not have a subcategory, may be placed directly into this category. Not all British non-fiction writers have been allocated yet to the constituent countries. There may be further Welsh writers in category:British non-fiction writers.

title: Category:Welsh non-fiction writers


text:
Talk:Biefeld–Brown effect

Thermionic valves
The article says "thermionic valves typically operate in this region". This is total bullshit--thermionic valves rely on vacuum, not ionized gas (the writer must have been thinking of switching tubes such as the thyratron. But the typical vacuum tubes--the common name for thermionic valves--depend on high vacuum and the emission thermal and electric electron emission.  There's nothing in there to get ionized, and thus no discharge. ThVa 23:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Experiments in Florida and at NASA/NSSTC, LEEIF Facility
I've been involved in this field of study since 1993, here's what we all need to do before we go making claims. We need to reduce the effect to a uniform standard of measurements. For example the one I use for my own experiments is the Newton per Watt. If I compare a Xenon Ion Propulsion System XIPS to a Lifter I can show that the Lifter has a significant advantage over the XIPS, likewise we can show that the "Ionocraft" is equal too or better than the Lifter in its performance using the Newton/Watt (N/W). As for the device not working in vacuum, well that's not true. It will work, but in a significantly reduced capacity when compared to a Lifter operating in air. However when you plot the thrust versus the power consumption the improvement in efficiency is stagering, it quickly approaches theoretical. The link below will show you some experiments we have done at a NASA facility, which showed a force effect in hard vacuum. http://youtube.com/user/hec031 (Grav01 (talk) 20:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC))

Personal undergrad experiment
I have personally conducted experiments at a University as an undergrad project with professor supervision that confirms that the ion-wind effect generates enough thrust to completely account for the lift produced. My article was refused publication however, because the editors of a physics publication found that the results would not be of much use or interest to its readers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.86.24.215 (talk • contribs). (aka the vn.shawcable.net anon from Vancouver, BC)

This information is really more of a reference, as I can no longer retrieve the citations from archives. However I remember an experiment and calculations that showed that lifters generate about 99.5 percent of the observed thrust through Ionic means. However, .5 percent was unaccounted for; this experiment had a .2 percent margin of error, and was extremely conservative. Calculations show that Bifreild-Brown effect accounts for .2 percent of thrust.

Yes that’s a low number, Lifters are, and I can not repeat this enough, NOT Bifeild-Brown Thrusters! But the force does exist, and it does require more study.

Personal USAF experiment
I personally built a lifter in 1990 while in the USAF, on my personal time. The observed 'wind' was completely insufficient to explain the amount of thrust generated. A recent paper confirms my observation and demonstrates mathematically that it is impossible for the ion-wind effects to explain even a fraction of the observed thrust. Furthermore, NASA has recently obtained a patent for a 'propellantless' thruster using the same principle. JL Naudin has an excellent website with videos demonstrating that he has physically isolated each electrode from each other's atmosphere and still generated thrust, which would be impossible if it were an ion-wind effect.Mike Lorrey 19:24, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * The "recent paper" (not, as far as I can tell, peer-reviewed, or in fact reviewed in any way the would remove spelling errors) linked above totally ignores the possibility of air entraiment by the ion wind, which is the standard explanation. It describes a single experiment, conducted in air, and claims that vacuum experiments are unnecessary (in reality, vacuum experiments show no force).
 * That patent is almost certainly speculative; it is almost certainly invalidated by prior art, since the original discoverers of the effect patented it (speculatively), and since there's been many articles published on the subject since.

 * The site has videos, but they show nothing of the sort described. --Andrew 19:51, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry, Andrew, but you aren't looking. I highly suggest you delve deeper into Naudin's "Lifter Project" pages. BTW: Speaking of spelling errors, the *entrainment* I observed was insufficient in my own experiments to explain the amount of thrust observed.

I completely agree with Andrew and I have looked at the Naudin pages and a lot of other pages and did the necessary calculations myself (as I was forced to, due to similiar discussions on de.wikipedia). --Pjacobi

Doesn't the Army Research Laboratory paper provide any sort of proof that the ionic wind is not the source? http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/arl_fac/index.html 71.55.16.180 (talk) 00:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

 * A quote from : "A polarisable dielectric medium is required to get a thrust." This seems to say that the effect will not work in a vacuum. (Which is exactly what vacuum experiments demonstrate).
 * The site full of videos vaguely describes three experiments that involve a physical partition between the electrodes. Two of them are simply understood by electrostatic attraction (this is not mentioned on their pages, but is alluded to on the page of the third.  The third is more interesting.  It uses three light bulbs (calling them vaccum tubes; I have no idea what the internal pressure is, but normal light bulbs do not operate in a vacuum) as one electrode, and the usual sheet of metal as the other. The videos show motion when power is applied.  No information is provided about current draw or force.  One simple explanation is that the tubes themselves may be being raised to a high voltage and serving as electrodes. Without actual data, it's impossible to tell what's going on.
 * If you did your own experiments, post the data somewhere and we can discuss it. --Andrew 21:21, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

See: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/ComnErr.html#ELECTROSTATIC%20ANTIGRAVITY --Pjacobi 23:15, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)

 * From your cited paper's conclusions: "But What If ?...There are, however, still some unresolved issues. Specifically, during the Talley tests (referenced above), anomalous forces were observed during the on/off transients -- anomalies that were never resolved. "Mike Lorrey 13:43, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Reading the newly available material, I agree w/ Mike Lorrey. There is more at play than just ionic wind. [ https://arxiv.org/pdf/1004.0810.pdf ] Mk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.196.97.168 (talk) 23:24, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Upward Lift of Tubular Lifter Confirms Ion Wind Not Lifting "Lifters"
-(May 3, 2006)- In experiments I performed myself, the following web page has photos and video of a "tubular lifter" I built which clearly shows aluminum tubes, freely hanging on wooden struts, resting on the wooden struts with the HV power supply off, but when power is supplied, the tubes LIFT UPWARD toward the high voltage wire. This ship lifts. If ion wind is the cause for lifting this ship upwards, why are the tubes lifted upwards rather than pushed down by the ion wind coming off the upper wire? Here's the link: http://www.skidmore.edu/academics/music/aholland/ScienceExperiments.html (see the tubular lifter photos and video) Also: JLNaudin's website clearly shows this technology working while immersed in oil. If there are any ions at all being generated in that oil (seems unlikely becuase Tesla used oil as an insulator in his large capacitors) I don't think there would be enough ion "wind" within the oil to move the lifter, yet, it moves while submerged in oil. Explain that, Ion wind proponents. Ion Wind clearly is not the primary lifting factor. Those who say that lifters do not work in vacuum have not actually tried it (read the book by Sigma Rho which includes a letter from TT Brown clearly indicating the effect still works in vacuum and was done in at least three different labs) or have not used enough voltage. TT Brown clearly indicates that his high voltage power supply was variable between 100KV-250Kv. Nobody's working at that level yet, though recently some of us have acquired 100Kv power supplies and are working on lifters in vacuum experiments. The problem is that HV in vaccum generates Xrays (which they don't do in air) and it becomes costly to provide high vaccum and protect against Xrays, but this is only a matter of time. Do the research and you'll see Brown clearly indicated the effect not only works in vacuum but also varies according to some "unknown universal constant" which he initially attributed to astronomical cycles". [Anthony Holland, Skidmore College]

 * And I suppose you tried the tubular one upside down, too? — Omegatron 23:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately, see EHD Thruster Collection: Horizontal Plane Foil for an experiment apparently disproving this. Can we find published evidence of this? - (Elliot_009 14:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC))

Solid-Dielectric Thrusters
I'm quite surprised at the lack of attention solid-dielectric thrusters are recieving, and also at the ignorance of some people that don't realize that the lifter is a capacitor with an air-dielectric. I belive the reason for the vacuum experiments showing poor results is a sad attempt to discredit the lifter as a reliable means of propulsion. I really wish someone would perform some solid-dielectric tests in vacuum (mind you, the NASA tests resulted in a power supply problem, not a thruster malfunction), and if another person finds such tests, would you post a link on the wiki page? This is only my opinion, if you can discredit or support me, do so.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.165.175 (talk • contribs) (aka the bchsia.telus.net anon; geolocated in Vancouver, BC; see also the vn.shawcable.net anon)

 * I think the vacuum experiments are trying to rule out the possibility of using a lifter as a source of propulsion in space. In air, it's an interesting but highly power-intensive way to move air, akin to fans, propellers, and magnetohydrodynamic drives.  If it actually works in space, it could be useful as a form of spacecraft propulsion.  Every known mechanism by which it could operate in space, though, makes it pretty unsatisfactory as a propulsion method.
 * If the solid-dielectric phenomenon you allude to is the same phenomenon, and you can point us to some reliable information about it, I'm sure somebody would work it into the article.
 * Incidentally, complaining about people's ignorance (even if they are ignorant) is not usually a good way to get positive attention for your ideas. --Andrew 06:38, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * Let's not forget that NASA has filed and GOT some patents for using the Biefeld-Brown effect for thrusters. So this could be an indication that the Biefeld-Brown Effect can be effictively used as thrusters in deep space. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.58.253.131 (talk • contribs) . (aka the kuleuven.ac.be anon in Leuven, Belgium)

 * Can you list some? NASA clearly states that the BB effect is nothing more than standard EHD in this paper.
 * In spite of decades of speculation about possible new physical principles being responsible for the thrust produced by ACTs and lifters, we find no evidence to support such a conclusion. On the contrary, we find that their operation is fully explained by a very simple theory that uses only electrostatic forces and the transfer of momentum by multiple collisions.
 * — Omegatron 01:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

 * You did not fully read the paper. Beyond the abstract it is clearly noted in that paper that device 2 (the one with the solid dielectric between the capacitor plates) in wired configuration A did jump 1/8th of a rotation in a vacuum when a voltage of 44 kV was applied.  At the same time a large arc was seen (they do not say where the arc went to from one can assume the positive capacitor plate).  They attributed the movement to ejection of particles because of the arc.  However, anyone who has seen a tesla coil operate has seen arcs and knows that the arcs aren't the ejection of material from the coil.  The experimenters should have encased the capacitor device in a dielectric resin to eliminate arcing.  Then they could have seen if the device still jumped when the voltage was turned on.

 * Mark McCandlish's claims on how the ARV "flux liner" works could potentially be consistent with the observations in this NASA experiment. McCandlish claims that a large primary and multiple secondary tesla coils create the voltage (A.C.) which is then funneled through a vacuum tube containing mercury (mercury arc rectifiers turn A.C. to D.C.) which is then applied to the capacitor plates.  Tesla coils create pulsed voltages, on/off, on/off, on/off.  So the D.C. current would be pulsed on/off, on/off, on/off.

 * It is entirely possible that McCandlish's details on how the supposed ARV "flux liner" works are fully consistent with the results of the NASA experiment you mentioned. 24.250.10.227 (talk) 23:22, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

You're right, it's not a great idea to insult people if you want positive attention, but I thought it would motivate someone to find it themselves. Jean-Louis Naudin has some replications of the NASA experiments if you'd like to see the solid-dielectric capacitors. Don't forget, transdimesional's lifter is an air-dielectric capacitor, and it's not exactly a phenomenon how it works. Check it out http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/asymcap.htm

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.165.175 (talk • contribs) (aka the bchsia.telus.net anon; geolocated in Vancouver, BC; see also the vn.shawcable.net anon)

 * No, we've had more than our share of insulting crackpots here already; being rude will just get you flagged as another one and more-or-less ignored. I've looked at that site before; in fact we link to it.  Nothing I've seen there convincingly conflicts with the conventional ion wind hypothesis, although the site author clearly thinks these things will work in a vacuum. --Andrew 02:44, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * An "air dielectric" implies that the air is insulating. Because of the high voltage, the air will break down around the sharp electrode and become conducting, and charged particles will drift through the neutral air in between, which means it's not a capacitor anymore. - Omegatron 03:44, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Not necessarily so. If there is no spark, the air still works as an insulator. The air as a dielectric only breaks down when there are charges passing through. When a spark occurs between the corona wire and the foil, the lifter will fall. So the lifter only lifts when he is behaving as a capacitor. (JCarril)

Ion wind
I can't find much on the wiki about ion wind in general. I deleted ion wind, which just redirected here. I'm specifically curious about those "ionic air cleaner" things, which should have an article, but I can't find one. Also, has anyone used ionic wind as a silent fan replacement? - Omegatron 03:44, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh here we go. Air ioniser

 * And ion wind is now a real article. — Omegatron 01:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Just thought you would find it interesting...
The biefeld-brown effect and electro hydrodynamics are two different effects. One of the outside links which links to www.blazelabs.com links you to their lifters page, which goes on to explain how lifters cannot work inside a vacuum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Endos127 (talk • contribs) (apparently a single purpose account)

 * The Hunt for Zero Point Inside the Classified World of Antigravity Technology
 * Winterhaven
 * Xerxes

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.4.131.67 (talk • contribs) (aka the gsp.bellsouth.net anon near Greenville, SC)

Repeated vandalism
I just wanted to support the action taken by the moderator in protecting the page. I am the guy who added the ionic patent numbers, and uploaded the original Hagen image. Lifters / Biefield-Brown is an ionic effect that was extensively researched in the 1960s by major American aerospace companies. They were apparently unable to figure out a way to get useful thrust from the apparatus, and interest lapsed. I uploaded the Hagen image, because contributors seemed unable to grasp the simple fact that 'Lifters' were invented in the 1960s, and all JLN labs did was re-create 40 year old patent documented research. Timharwoodx 15:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Are you the same Tim Harwood who is freeenergynews.com/Directory/Electromagnetic/index.html said to be involved with "new energy" schemes? For others: the cited website is freeenergynews.com Free Energy News, which promotes over-unity devices and which is apparently registered to the creator of peswiki.com Pure Energy Systems Wiki. ---CH 10:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Recent anon edits
Two anons have recently made unexplained deletions: Websites devoted to the promotion of T. T. Brown, the Bielfeld-Brown effect, etc., include sites in Pegram, TN, Santa Monica, CA, Holland, Paris, and Blaze Labs which is registered in Malta (the webhost is apparently geolocated in London), but there are many others. ---CH 09:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 1)  aka the abo.wanadoo.fr anon; apparently geolocated near Paris
 * 2)  aka the ipt.aol.com anon; apparently geolocated in the United Kingdom.

 * They just keep going, and going, and going... They look to all be from AOL addresses.  Did you check any of the others?  They're all removing exactly the same thing, so they are probably the same person.  Are dynamic IPs reliably geolocatable? — Omegatron 17:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * In case you didn't notice, CH, this has been going on since early April, in both Biefeld–Brown effect and Lifter (ionic propulsion device). — Omegatron 17:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't, oddly enough, but I just added that article to the WikiProject Pseudoscience watchlist. As I just wrote in Talk:Lifter (ionic propulsion device), the ipt.aol.com proxy anon has recently used the IPs (AOL proxys) to edit both articles: among others.
 * 1) (apparently a proxy)
 * 1) (apparently a proxy)

The abo.wanadoo.fr anon may well be associated with the link to the cranky website futura-sciences.com, which is registered to an individual who also appears to reside near Paris.---CH 18:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Only a crank could make the exact same edits dozens of times without getting the hint.
 * What kind of proxies are those? If they're open proxies, can't we block them permanently? — Omegatron 20:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I think the place to inquire would be WikiProject on open proxies. ---CH 01:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I just asked User:Freakofnurture to run a proxy check for us. I think he can immediately ban that range of IPs if he concludes that it does indeed represent an open proxy. ---CH 01:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

 * But you're the one who said "definitely a proxy". — Omegatron 01:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

On the basis of software running at a site I don't control. A proxy check consists, as I understand it, of a more controlled scan to assess the security or lack of security of a machine which is suspected to have been compromised. ---CH 01:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

One reason why I have some confidence that something underhanded is going on here is that the geolocations give characteristically bizarre results. This is obviously one user in one place, not located all over the globe. ---CH 01:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Freakofnuture replied that the IPs in question do not represent an open proxy. Rather, he says, this is an ordinary AOL user with a prosaic dynamic IP (i.e. each of his login sessions will usually be associated with a distinct IP address, which at other times might be temporarily assigned to someone else entirely). He says the range includes millions of addresses, so a block is essentially impossible. I understand that this is a long standing problem with AOL users who make questionable edits (or even flagrant vandalism) of the WP. I think the only viable solution is to continue what we've been doing anyway. I agree that geolocations might be all but useless in this case, but in general, geolocations even of dynamic IPs can certainly be useful and valid.---CH 03:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Yeah, that's what I thought. We'll just have to keep sprotecting until they get tired of this game, I guess.  Someone else needs to help revert, though; I'm breaking 3RR, even though it would most likely be considered vandalism. — Omegatron 15:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The vn.shawcable.net anon
This anon has apparently also edited John Hutchison and probably can be identified the bchsia.telus.net anon; both seem to be geolocated near Vancouver, BC. The shawcable.net anon can probably be identified with User:Starski (as in Starsky and Hutch). This person seems to have described himself as a personal friend of John Hutchison, and as the "webmaster" of the website hutchisoneffect.biz, which is registered in Vancouver to John Hutchison.---CH 02:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: Lightning Rods
I removed the following sentence: "— this belief is perpetuated in the construction of pointy lightning rods historically (though rounded or spherical topped rods are better than the pointed rods)" This is a side issue. Design of lightning rods is not relevant to current topic. "Belief" is anappropriate to topic. Whether pointed or round lightning rods more effectively protect buildings is currently being researched: http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s816484.htm. Jedwards05 2006.06.08
 * The article reads nicely, presents information in a way that can be understood, specifies the effect as a "phoenonema" without attempting to get into its scientific validity, acceptance, or "theory". The first part of the article, anyway, that I read looks good and makes sense and Mr. Lightening Rod is vandalizing instead of making the effort necessary to present any additional evidence of such an effect not happening under similar physical setup.  That's what I think. Terryeo 22:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by anon
The ipt.aol.com anon ( America Online; these machines appear to be mostly geolocated in Reston, VA but of course the anon probably is not geolocated there) has used the following IPs to vandalize this article and Lifter (ionic propulsion device): See Talk:John Hutchison, where a Vancouver, BC anon who apparenlty is a good friend of Hutchison writes "I can get a bot to revert these posts and switch ips, by the time im finished you will be upgrading your software hick."

The abo.wanadoo.fr anon near Paris has used the following IPs:

This individual appears to be someone else. ---CH 01:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Under the radar.
It was alleged the US B-2 Spirit bomber uses this method of propulsion when in stealth mode. The thurst produced by the four conventional turbojets borrowed from the F/A-18 fighter jet design is not enough to make the big bomber fly when the upper and lower pair of extra "cat-ear" air intakes are closed for a stealth run. This could be mentioned in the article. 82.131.210.162 (talk) 18:43, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * References, please. `'Míkka>t 21:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Uncited statements
These lines have had a citation request on them for two months now. Given that this section has undue weight in this article, I have removed them. If someone can cite them and show how they are so critical to the understanding of the Biefeld-Brown effect that they are worth the undue weight issue, they could be reintroduced: ''Some people think that the Tesla coil might be related to this effect. In fact, when Tesla came to the USA he was supposedly carrying plans for a "flying machine". The only common factor between a Tesla coil and the Biefeld–Brown effect is that, in both of them, high voltage plays a vital role. High field gradients between electrode plates, can be produced by an AC circuit powered by Tesla coils.'' Locke9k (talk) 21:08, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Just dropping by during an unrelated web crawl but I had to comment:- "Eisenhower National Security Council member Colonel Philip J. Corso wrote that top scientists who first analyzed an alien craft downed near Roswell, NM first suspected that it had something to do with the Biefeld–Brown effect or a Tesla energy flow." from the article. Are we taking as fact that there was an alien craft downed at Roswell?!? That is what this sentence implies to me. Judging from this discussion page any edits provoke massive debate so I'm not willing to get involved but....Really? - Grible (talk) 11:07, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Now this is just speculation (total OR), but I have worked out a theory about the Roswell craft that may fit with this. It traces an idea from Tesla, in the mid 30's (through the US secret service) to the Germans, and then in 1945 (as part of project Paperclip) back to America. The description of the strange foil the craft was made of fits with tungsten foil - and to me this suggests an LTA, a 'hot air' balloon but filled with a hot plasma inside instead of normal hot air. It would make sense for it to also use ionic propulsion. The device would heat the plasma via some kind of high voltage system, and was designed to operate as the last stage antenna in a machine called a 'radio gun' situated on the ground. Teslas device was talked about quite publicly and was theoretically the most lethal weapon ever invented - (as described able to wipe out whole cities or able to knock whole fleets of planes out of the sky), but it never worked (obviously). In essence the Roswell device was a foo fighter - but the only 'aliens' involved were Nazi's. Lucien86 (talk) 03:17, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

More Uncited Statements
I removed this rubbish about French Science Shows because by it's own admission, there were mystery eyewitnesses. That's like saying "some people say...".

Completeley unverified. We could fill this whole article with unsubstantiated witness accounts.Russel Anderson (talk) 22:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, in the "electrogravity" section, the paragraph "In 2003, at the American space institute of NASA, Hector Luis Serrano (President of Gravitec Inc.) investigated the forces onto an asymmetrical capacitor inside a vacuum. He observed electrogravity forces inside a vacuum chamber at 1.72 x 10^-6 Torr of vacuum pressure with a 45kV potential. Due to confidential reasons the results and video weren't released until four years later, in 2007.[1]"

makes no sense. Nobody uses "torr" anymore, "confidential reasons" isn't a reference, and the citation number just vaguly points in the direction of the Biefeld-Brown website. No specific article or anything. I will remove that as soon as i can find something meaningful to replace it with. Russel Anderson (talk) 23:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE: i removed the aforementioned passage today. Gravitec are in no way associated with NASA, this comment is very misleading, and Gravitec is just another free-energy nutjob website. NOT even a remoteley academic reference.Russell Anderson (talk) 14:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That is pretty rich coming from you, "Beamship Captain". How are your little lifters coming along? Do you still believe that we are being visited from beings from the Pleiades?88.69.232.70 (talk) 00:10, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Also funny that Russell dismisses use of the "torr" unit, while he uses it in his little "equations" over on youtube. How is John Searle these days? Still rinsing money from gullible fools? 88.69.232.70 (talk) 00:13, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Lead
Current lead section doesn't tell what the effect actually is about. Added a template. --J. Sketter (talk) 02:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

1955-58 Experiments of Biefeld Brown Effect in Paris
Please note recent publication of original reports of the experiments done in 1955-58 in Paris between Societe National de Construction Aeronautique du Sud-Ouest (SNCASO, later Sud-Aviation) and Thomas Townsend Brown. http://projetmontgolfier.info —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scienceandarts (talk • contribs) 18:27, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

discussion
are we going to have a serious discussion about this or are the skeptics going to keep deleting everything and assuming this is an ion wind effect? let me know when your ready to talk... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.180.68 (talk) 16:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

A quick note on 'Electrogravity' All mass/energy feels the effects of gravity. A sufficiently dense photon field would produce gravity effects. The energy density would have to be determined to state that there is negligible effect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.201.140.155 (talk) 20:40, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Schlieren
I have seen the Schlieren video on youtube.com and I am convinced that the Brown effect is not an ionic phenomenon. There are plenty of high vacuum test there as well, and the movement is not impeded in the least. The effect works, I believe, by using Tesla's longitudinal dielectric waves. 67.206.183.145 (talk) 02:03, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Electro-Gravity via Chronon field
An electro-gravitational craft according to E. Suchard's theory is based on charge separation and is NOT the usual Biefeld-Brown ion-craft because a pico-farad capacitor, of any shape under 50000 volts, is not capable of maintaining enough charges to manifest measurable results of real electro-gravity in vacuum. The predicted effect depends on the electric field divergence and therefore on charge densities and on their integration but not directly on the electric field as in conventional iono-crafts. Equation (7) in Suchard's paper has a divergence component, that according to a possible interpretation (6.4), offers a way to achieve electro-gravity. A small correction is, however, that the coefficient of this term should be 2 and not 1 as it is in equation (7), also Einstein tensor should be with lower indices. The resulting postulated gravitational field resembles an electric dipole and offers elevation on the expense of the trajectories of far bodies of mass quite the same way ebb and tide take energy from the moon's trajectory. According to that assumption, the divergence term coincides with electric charges and therefore can explain the Dark Matter effect by a negligible excess of intra-galactic positive charges. The ordinary conservation law (8) is then replaced with a more general law (25) in the same paper “Upper Time Limit, Its Gradient Curvature, and Matter”. Suchard's paper complements a previous research from 1982 by Sam Vaknin on a Chronon field amendment to Dirac's equation — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eytan il (talk • contribs) 00:02, 26 February 2014

"In fact, Brown was fully aware of how the device worked."
Aware of what? Electrohydrodynamics? Anti-gravity? This got rm'ed in my cleanup, anybody got a reference? Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 00:57, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

"The effect is more widely referred to as electrohydrodynamics"
....if that is true then this article is a candidate for deletion, Wikipedia is not a dictionary that has articles at alternate names for the same subject. I can see a reason for an article here (WTF is the Biefeld–Brown effect?!?!), but most of the description does not belong here, it belongs at electrohydrodynamics or related articles. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 16:34, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Brown never acknowledged that the thrust he measured might be due to plasma discharge or electrohydrodynamics. Even modern researchers still claim that reactionless thrust can be produced by high-voltage electrical fields, see Douglas Torr, among others. Although Brown may have been mistaken, this article is about his influential claims, independent of the actual effect of electrohydrodynamics. Despite the statement in the lede, it is not the same thing. Aldebaran66 (talk) 17:02, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

 * The problem is all the reliable sourcing I can see says electrohydrodynamics and Biefeld–Brown effect are exactly the same thing. So you need to provide reliable sourcing to the contrary (I know that can be hard since this stuff can go way down the rabbit hole ;)),. Short of RS the requirement in Wikipedia is to delete (We may think we know something but you got to prove it). Wikipedia articles are not reliable sources for obvious reasons. If Brown made a mistake then we describe his mistake. The section "Effect analysis" describes electrohydrodynamics, so does not belong here, and "analysis" is a bad title, if it is that then it should be deleted per WP:OR. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:06, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

 * This article is not about the science of electrohydrodynamics, it is about the psuedo-science the Biefeld-Brown effect. It makes it difficult, because the Biefeld-Brown effect is not real, the observations attributable to the effect are actually explained by EHD. The article would be remiss if it suggested that the BB effect was real ... thus the explanation of how EHD explains the observed effect, which is perhaps too lengthy. But just because the BB effect is psuedoscience does not mean it is not a notable subject for an article. It was, after all, the focus of government research in the 50s and 60s and still is the focus of a lot of fringe theorists. If anything, this article needs to be merged with Electrogravitics, not electrohydrodynamics. Puddytang (talk) 20:41, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

 * Hmm, merge the other way may work. The common thread I am seeing is EHD material should be moved out to EHD. This article should describe the history and usage of BB. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 00:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

 * It would be nice to have a consensus at least between the two of us! :) I believe I can merge BBE to EG for the time being, since Electrogravitics is clearly just the study of the Biefend Brown Effect. Then, if it seems that taking out or moving some of the EHD stuff seems warranted, it can still be moved. (Because I think these two articles need to be merged regardless of whether anything needs to be merged to EHD). Puddytang (talk) 03:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposed Merger with Electrogravitics
Result:  Puddytang (talk) 04:10, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I am proposing this page be merged with Electrogravitics. My proposed edit, found here: User:Puddytang/Electrogravitics, would incorporate some of the stuff from this article into the Electrogravitics article. Puddytang (talk) 00:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

 * I reverted the Unilateral merger since it goes against guidelines. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 12:33, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Oppose 19:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)) flat out merger, electrohydrodynamics (EHD) does not belong at either article, it has its own article. I see some usefulness for a "Biefeld–Brown effect" article but could be swayed to merge it. Need more RS to show if Electrogravitics or Biefeld–Brown effect are the common name for this stuff. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 12:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

 * Firstly, I merged Biefeld-brown effect and Electrogravitics. I never suggested EHD should merged, you were the one who suggested that! Secondly, there is no policy requiring discussion of a merge. Thirdly, you are probably right that Biefeld-Brown effect is the more appropriate name. Also, if you use the "what links here" tool, you can catch re-directs, as of now, some Biefeld-Brown links are still re-directed to Electrogravitics. Puddytang (talk) 04:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

 * I suggested EHD material be moved out to EHD, not Electrogravitics. If you place a merger tag it seems to be a week to 30 day process, 30 days recommended (see: Merging). The claims for Electrogravitics differ from Biefeld-brown effect re:"invented by Nikola Tesla". Can I cite Reliable sources? bwahahahahahah!!!!!..... sorry, that was directed at the field in general. I think we can cite what (who are these people?) say for a general description but we can't claim one is the other. The RS cuts both ways. I would suggest two articles for now with better description. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 16:31, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

 * Admittedly, I haven't done a huge amount of research into it; I was taking the article's word for it that Electrogravitics is another name for Biefeld Brown Effect, and Somewhere along the way Brown came up with the name Biefeld–Brown effect, named after his former teacher, to describe electrogravitics. But, even if there is some distinction which I am not seeing, as of now, the two articles cover almost the exact same subject matter, with the exception of the EHD explanation of the effect. If someone wants to come along in the future and re-create an Electrogravitics article that explores that field in depth, they would be free to do so. But as of now, I don't see the value of having two almost identical articles on the same topic under different names. Puddytang (talk) 21:54, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Support merging material concerning Thomas Townsend Browns and his theory into Electrogravitics and moving the entire section "Effect analysis" to Electrohydrodynamics as a sub in the section in Electrohydrodynamics.

Biefeld–Brown effect is claimed to be electrogravity, or it is a miss-identification of Electrohydrodynamics. Electrogravitics is the main topic per / and I can't pull an N-Gram on "Biefeld–Brown effect". If this looks like a good idea I'd suggested a week from post of notice re:"there has been no discussion or is unanimous consent" and execute the merge. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

 * Oppose The elecrohydrodynamics article is fine, moving junk from this article into electrohydrodynamics would be detrimental to that article. It is an article about the scientific field of study, and should not be overly burdened by a discussion of the psuedo-science of elecrogravitics. As for Thomas Townsend Brown, I believe TT Brown is sufficiently notable outside of this theory to merit his own article. For example, founder of Nicapp or whatever. It would therefore make more sense to move Electrogravitics and BBE to the TT Brown article than visa versa.

 * Since we can't seem to reach any consensus here, maybe we should ask for input on the TT Brown page and the Electrohydrodynamics page. Regardless, I do not support merging anything to those pages or deleting either of those pages without including them in the discussion. I suspect that the authors of the Electrohydrodynamics article, if they are still around, would be strongly opposed. Puddytang (talk) 22:26, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

 * Comment: Actually I was not implying a merger with Thomas Townsend Brown... sorry if it came off that way. I am proposing merging material concerning Thomas Townsend Browns and his theory from this article into Electrogravitics and redirect Biefeld–Brown effect to Electrogravitics.... basically this edit without merging in the "Effect analysis" section. Elecrogravitics has nothing to do with "corona discharge" / "air molecules to become ionized near sharp points and edges" so that material should not be merged with Elecrogravitics. Elecrogravitics is claimed by the article definition to be "anti-gravity propulsion created by an electric field's effect on a mass". The "Effect analysis" section seems to be a description of Electrohydrodynamics although unreferenced. It could be deleted out in the merger and noted at the Electrohydrodynamics talk page for future referencing/expansion. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:18, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

 * Support: Sorry I misunderstood. It sounds like we are basically in agreement. The only thing I would add is, based on my google searches, I think Biefeld-Brown Effect is probably the more appropriate name for the consolidated article rather than Electrogravitics. Puddytang (talk) 06:45, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

 * Per published books Electrogravitics, "electro-gravity" is the predomenent term over "Biefeld Brown" effect and is claimed to be the name for the entire field - The Planets by Byron Preiss, Frontiers of Propulsion Science, Marc G. Millis, Eric W. Davis Page 16 LaViolette. Biefeld-Brown Effect is Browns personal name for the effect per LaViolette. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:40, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

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 * Yes archived okay, but— I found the article is still live under it's title, just a different URL, so NOT dead, just moved  WurmWoode  T   01:09, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

biefeld brown
I thought … After connect high voltage, in electrode atoms, The electrons orbit change to oval. And this make centrifugal energy … and then nucleus gravity use this to make a gravity from bigger mass (electrode ) to smaller. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hasan.golandooz (talk • contribs) 22:51, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

"The use of an asymmetric capacitor"
These aren't "capacitors". Capacitors store electrical energy by separating the electrodes with an insulator. These are not meant to store energy, and are separated by a conducting fluid, not an insulator. If Brown used the term "capacitor", then put it in scare quotes whenever used. — Omegatron (talk) 14:34, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Bahder/ARL
Per this edit, the paper being cited clearly has a "Summary and Suggested Future Work" section and covers ionic mobility, not "electron" mobility. We can not synthesize our own conclusions from a primary source paper and/or make "Although" MOS:EDITORIAL statements. Also, describing edits based on source material as "vandalizing" is WP:UNCIVIL. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Biefeld–Brown effect