text:
Talk:Carlisle

Bias
This article has some bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.151.237.194 (talk) 21:32, 9 February 2005 (UTC)

 * Only some? Let's try harder, people! --  02:26, 9 March 2005 (UTC)

Tabled
In rewriting the thing about the cursed stone, I deliberately avoided the word "tabled". While I agree that british articles should be written in british english, "tabled" means essentially the opposite of what you'd imagine in american english, and thus ran the risk of really confusing some poor yank reading the article. In britspeak, "tabled" means "proposed", but in yanktalk it means "postponed until another meeting". -- 02:26, 9 March 2005 (UTC)

Curse
This really interests me and I'd like to hear more about it, especially since I actually am a Carlisle. RcSamurai — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.78.187.122 (talk) 06:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I take the quoted text is an english translation of the original Scots version? Anyone got a lead on the Scots version? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.128.33.248 (talk) 06:45, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Flood picture
If you look in the history of this page you'll see I tried to put in a picture of the flood I took, but it didn't align quite right. I'd appreciate it if someone better than me could have a go. Or maybe you don't think there should be one? I do, as it is quite a big part of the city's recent history. Thanks. Microwave85 23:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Capital of England?
Ive been lead to believe that Edward I held TWO parliaments there. One in 1300 and the other in 1307. Would that make Carlisle the English Capital city intead of London on those two dates? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JAFFA (talk • contribs) 15:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

 * To put it simply: no. It doesn't work like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.240.209 (talk) 09:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Latin Name
Google returns some web pages giving Luguvalium as the Roman name for Carlisle. Anyone have a source? --Gil Gamesh 22:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Article needs expansion
This article needs significant expansion. The city is of great historical importance yet some small villages in Cumbria have longer and more detailed articles. I have split transport out into a new section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.219.75 (talk) 23:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Catholicism
Why is Carlisle included in the WikiProject Catholicism? The only reason I can think of is that it was once like many other English ciites the seat of a catholic diocese can anyone else give me a reason for its inclusion? Penrithguy 18:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

102 Miles
'The famous Scottish Indie Rock Outfit "102 Miles" take their name from the distance from Glasgow Central railway station to Carlisle.'

If they're so famous, why don't they have a Wikipedia page? Not that it's impossible that they're famous, but if they are somebody should get to it. But I've certainly never heard of them, so I'm doubtful — TheJames 11:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

 * They have some pages, for instance channel4 music... check out -
 * http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=102+miles&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enGB228GB228 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.207.47.21 (talk) 17:53, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Castle and cathedral
The castle keep is well preserved but the rest of the fortress has been restored and rebuilt many times.

The west end of the cathedral was destroyed by the Scots 1645-52, not Cromwell.

The cathedral east window is a magnificent composition of flowing tracery 51 feet high. Whether it is larger than that at York Minster I'm not sure. The York east window is the largest expanse of mediaeval stained glass in the world.

As Paul Nixon appears in the residents section, there seems little point in having a special cricket section just for him.

Sir Walter Scott was married in the cathedral december 1797.

Bandalore 17:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Request for pronunciation information
Can a bona fide local provide a pronunciation for the town name? I live in a US Carlisle with the stress on the second syllable and I'm wondering if the real Carlisle is pronounced the same way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.9.56.118 (talk) 15:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

 * In my experience, its pronounced car-LILE in Scotland and CAR-lile in England. Famousdog (talk) 13:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

 * It's pretty much always pronounced CAR-lile in the Scottish Borders, though. 80.41.193.138 (talk) 00:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Note the poem The Armada by Thomas Babington Macaulay which ends
 * Till Skiddaw saw the fire that burned on Gaunt’s embattled pile,
 * And the red glare on Skiddaw roused the burghers of Carlisle.
 * where the scansion clearly implies the stress on the second syllable. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 19:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Just to muddy things further, (but probably logical enough given what FamousDog says), I'm from Carlisle and I pretty much say it with equal stress on both syllables, maybe slightly, slightly more on the first, but I'm having to say it over and over to myself to get that. Sort of like sitting at the opticians when they slot a new lens in and ask if it's better or worse. Definitely further up in scotland, say glasgow and north, the second syllable is stressed...kur-LYLE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.176.163.106 (talk) 11:14, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Kevin Carlyon
Kevin Carlyon is not, as the article claims, the "high priest" of British white witches. He is a rather eccentric attention-seeker who has for years been trying to make himself a thorn in the side of the British Wiccan community. He models his "High Priest of the Witches" claim on the title "King of the Witches" that many gave to the late Alex Sanders, who Carlyon interviewed a couple of days before his death (the interviews are distressing to listen to, as Kevin eagerly asks for more stories, ignoring the requests of the ill Sanders for a glass of water!). He is seen by the Wiccan community as ridiculous, exploitative and unethical.

Check out his site http://www.kevincarlyon.co.uk/. He's clearly trying to rub the Wiccan and Pagan community up the wrong way, adopting the title "The Living God of All Witches" "just to add to the controversy between other witches".

Cheers all, just a heads up. Fuzzypeg★ 00:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, so you insist on keeping him and his opinion. Well, I'm just registering with you that this claim of his is found highly insulting and defamatory by other British witches. Fuzzypeg★ 22:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

 * A press release by Scottish witches on the subject can be found here. Fuzzypeg★ 01:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

 * (sigh) That's is all well and good, but this is an article about Carlisle, not a soapbox for your witchy problems with Kevin Carlyon. The story is of interest to those interested in Carlisle and most people won't be interested in the internal politics of white-witchery in the UK. My suggestion is, make a page for Kevin and put your criticisms there, and anybody interested can follow the link. Famousdog (talk) 13:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

 * (sigh) The article started out by repeating false claims, which are insulting to certain people. You may not be one of those insulted, but that's no reason to be dismissive. I've made a minor alteration to the wording which I think finally makes it satisfactory. I still don't understand why Mr. Carlyon's opinion is notable, but then, I don't keep tabs on British tabloid media, living in New Zealand (and I've never even been to Carlisle), so I'll trust your judgement on that. Cheers. Fuzzypeg★ 22:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Districts/suburbs of Carlisle
Do we really need this section listing the electoral wards of Carlisle and what type of housing you find there? Frankly, it's a bit... how can I put this... boring. Famousdog (talk) 13:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I apologise for being boring but there are similar sections on other articles about towns and cities Penrithguy (talk) 16:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Picture
why does the main picture show Carlisle in relation to Scotland not the country it's actually in - England! We wouldn't show Paris in relation to Italy would we? Anon. 20:48 3/6/08 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.206.242 (talk) 19:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I have changed it to the old picture of Carlisle within Cumbria Penrithguy (talk) 19:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Photographs of Carlisle Cathedral needed
Could someone who lives in Carlisle please photograph the East Window of the cathedral, preferable from the inside. Note that it is the tracery that is of particular importance. The window always looks very bright in photos. A Photo taken from the other end of the choir, with flash, might show some of the stained glass as well. The glass in the tracery is medieval. Pic needs to show the entire window.

A nice photo of the organ case would be good as well, and perhaps the Choir stalls, which are 15th century, the regimental chapel, and the carvings on the capitals in the choir..... Upload to Wiki Commons, and drop me a message! Amandajm (talk) 14:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Carlisle rugby football club
Hello, Any chance someone could start a page about carlisle rugby football club please. I am not sure how to do this so thought I should ask. They have a website at http://www.carlislerugby.co.uk

Thank you in advance

A 23 oct 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki login2 (talk • contribs) 17:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Simply Carlisle
I was looking to add SimplyCarlisle.com to the external links section on the Carlisle page, but an editor has removed the link.

SimplyCarlisle.com is a new dirctory site and it provides free links to the websites of any business in Carlisle, making it a good old comprehensive source when searching for restaurants, estate agents etc in the city. You also don't just get an address and phone number with website links only for the one or two companies that have paid.

I would invite another editor to repost the link if they too feel it would be a worth while addition and resource.

86.136.237.63 (talk) 19:54, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

 * This kind of link is deprocated in wikipedia and many look upon it as commercial spam. Wikipedia is not a business directory for local Carlisle people. Thanks for your good faith addition, but it cannot be allowed to stand. Sorry 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 22:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I can respect an editorial decision for Wikipedia (even if I don't understand it) however I'd hope you'd provide true comment on our site. To decribe our site as "commercial spam" is quite bizare, we have spent hundreds of hours qualifying sites to make sure there are hundreds of links to resources such as local weather, train times for specific local stations, cinema times direct from local cinemas, and countless clubs and societies and sites of special interest, really picking out the best of the web locally thus making it relevant. To quote an email in yesterday from the Princess Theatre in Torquay with respect to the Simply Torquay site; "Your site is lovely! easy to understand nice and clear...".

86.136.166.70 (talk) 12:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

 * 21stCenturyGreenstuff said that "This kind of link is deprocated in wikipedia and many look upon it as commercial spam". It's the link that's regarded as spam, not your site. The underlying problem is avoiding Wikipedia becoming just another link directory. Nobody's disrespecting your site, --Northernhenge (talk) 17:46, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

We thought our sites would have been of use to your readers, but a link to us hasn't been possible, but now we'd kindly ask these discussions be removed as they can only damage our sites name and it's people's livelihoods that are effected. Kind Regards

86.136.166.70 (talk) 16:17, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

 * That's not how it works, especially when you go around deleting other's comments on talk pages. --Blowdart | talk 17:23, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anybody has said anything bad about any of your sites and I am sure they do an admirable job for the communities they serve. Sorry but it is not considered correct to delete stuff off a talk page, (although editors can freely delete information off their own user space talk pages). If the talk page gets too big the page may be archived at some stage in the future (and probably will be). The fact that wikipedia looks upon links to commercial directories in general as commercial spam does not denegrate the activities of your venture in any way whatsoever. Good luck with your venture 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 19:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

"Famous" residents
Okay, I removed a couple of persons from the famous residents list. This list is now getting pretty long and the notability criteria pretty lax. I googled "Matthew Begg poet" and didn't get any hits at all. Also, Charles Shepherd has been redlinked for a year or so and still hasn't got an article about him specifically, so he's gone. I think another way we could reduce the list is by eliminating some people who were only in Carlisle temporarily, or weren't born there, like Richard Madeley... Famousdog (talk) 08:40, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Page move
Where was the consensus generated for the move to Carlisle, Cumbria? I can see no consensus to move, and I suggest its moved back pending further discussion. Jenuk1985 |  Talk  21:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

 * It was done in the spirit of WP:BOLD. But hear me out... take a look at Salford, and the discussion at Salford, Greater Manchester; there there was a unanimous consensus and all agreed the change was very positive and gave good reasons for the support. There has been longstanding uncertainty about the primacy of the term "Carlisle" and confusion as to city status. Salford is one working example of this approach, Lincoln and Lancaster are others. I'm hoping to get round to some of the others. --Jza84 | Talk  21:39, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ya all know Carlisle, Ontario redirects to Carlisle? A quick look-see shows most are expecting to find Carlisle, Cumbria. Seriously, it can be done, but is it worth creating the grief? Kbthompson (talk) 23:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm confident this is worth putting to rest and believe that the change is necessary to bring Wikipedia out of the dark ages and present the issue more neutrally and clearly for our readers. Because "Carlisle" (proper) has taken primacy, it's meant people are expecting to find it is a city - the City of Carlisle. Then we have others who think we should have mergers, which has proven to never achieve consensus and wipes out either the history of the settlement, or the history of the outlying areas. Who decided Carlisle proper should take primacy over the city in the first place? I have faith this is a very good change, good for Wikipedia and our readers and eliminate a lot of confusion. --Jza84 | Talk  23:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no opinion on the move itself, but I feel that a move of a major article like this should achieve consensus before carried out. Jenuk1985  |  Talk  23:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There was no WP:CUMBRIA I could take this to, and this talk page seems seldom edited. But that said, I'm not insensitive to the fact this was a very bold move. But with all my work on places in the region, and development of WP:UKGEO and WP:UKCITIES, I'm still confident that this was a move waiting to happen. The consensus at Salford melded the idea as a wise and productive choice, conductive to the good of the project. Would you both be willing to back the move, if say, I worked on the City of Carlisle (towards something more like say City of Salford)? --Jza84 | Talk  23:39, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said, I have no opinion (or knowledge) related to the area, so its not worth trying to convince me to be for or against such a move! Jenuk1985  |  Talk  23:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem - was just trying to erk one out of you! Hope you can see method to my madness if nothing else though :S --Jza84 | Talk  23:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the madness 8^) - or should that be the method? There's a lot of work associated with these major page moves - as you well know. It also places a lot of responsibility on editors to get it right - I just corrected a load of football articles that were linking to places. Ultimately, I want to avoid constructs like 'Walford, London is the central district of the London Borough of Walford; a part of East London within Greater London'!
 * It is however, systematic and applies the UKCITIES naming convention. Kbthompson (talk) 09:07, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Implementation

 * [<-] about 750; also links to Carlisle, England should probably be emptied and redirected here. Kbthompson (talk) 09:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, fixed Carlisle, England ... One thing came up, do you reckon the historic 'governor' applied to the castle, or the town? Kbthompson (talk) 10:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure, that's a grey area for me. :( --Jza84 | Talk  22:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Where's the example? Nev1 (talk) 22:22, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * John Holland, 1st Duke of Exeter - there was another somewhere; much the same prose ... Kbthompson (talk) 10:37, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say link that to Carlisle, Cumbria - it will give the most context IMHO.
 * Should I make a AWB request to pipelink the existing Carlisles to this page? --Jza84 | Talk  11:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at the text, constables look after castles, governors look after settlements. Nev1 (talk) 18:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * [<-} There's about 200 left; Category:People from Carlisle needs attention. Someone took a strict view of Carlisle and removed things called 'Carlisle' - like the railway station, the cathedral, etc. - hence some were done manually. Be good if someone could check what I've done. Thanks Kbthompson (talk) 18:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and need a County Borough of Carlisle article! cheers Kbthompson (talk) 18:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll get on to that. :) --Jza84 | Talk  18:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Ozzy Osbourne
Ozzy Osbourne? A singer-songwriter? Technically that may be true, but I doubt it is how most people would describe him. Hell-raising heavy metal singer might be nearer the mark. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:04, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Osbourne never moved to or lived in Carlisle, he was left behind in Birmingham when Iommi and Ward formed the band 'Mythology' that based itself in Carlisle. Iommi sought out Osbourne when he returned to Birmingham after Mythology split. Read the biography carefully at[]. Conversely Tony Iommi of Black Sabbath could be added to the resident list. Iommi lived in and was a resident of Carlisle for over twelve months, Osbourne's later stay of only a couple of weeks makes him a visitor NOT a resident.21st CENTURY  GREENSTUFF 22:57, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Lead image
In the grand scheme of things, the lead image in an article on a place as important as Carlisle may not be as important as good sourcing (there are currently only 17 references), but the first image people see in the article is still important. A dull image is off-putting, whereas an interesting one can make the read want to know more. Unfortunately, this image just doesn't do Carlisle justice. Recently an IP changed the lead image to a collage; it has merits as it incorporated several of the city's landmarks, but it probably needs to be discussed. Maybe there's a single shot on flickr that is distinctively Carlisle, or perhaps a better collage can be made? Nev1 (talk) 19:55, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

 * The present image does indeed look rather dull. The collage is much more appealing IMO. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I agree the current image is dull, but I don't like the idea of a collage either. Why squeeze lots of photos into an infobox, each image too small to see properly, when there is plenty of room to spread them out, at a larger size, throughout the article? --  Dr Greg   talk  19:37, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Definitely needs a collage! All other cities have them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:D437:700:557D:84CE:8FA:76D1 (talk) 01:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I've created a photomontage which I think looks way better, feel free to improve it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:D437:700:9CCF:46E1:E831:3707 (talk) 13:15, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I think I made it with the wrong template because I'm having trouble typing text for the images, a single image of the montage might be better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:D437:700:9CCF:46E1:E831:3707 (talk) 14:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

We can't have a pub be the lead image of Carlisle and collages are much more relevant these days. Could someone go round and take pictures of all the landmarks and put them into a collage like the Leeds page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:D03B:A000:FD63:B023:9D9:C324 (talk) 10:29, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 1

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Carlisle, Cumbria → Carlisle — This is the English encyclopedia so I would have thought that the city in England should be the prime topic. Homan's Copse (talk) 11:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Support. English [language], not English [England]; nevertheless, the English city is the largest and most significant settlement of this name. PC78 (talk) 11:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Speedy close; nominator appears to be making WP:POINT-y nominations in protest of the request at Talk:Dover. Powers T 12:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * While I agree that the nom has made some other questionable move requests, this one at least appears to have some merit. PC78 (talk) 12:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Other similar nominations by user have been closed. As this one appears to have a legitimate case have left this open.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose The placement of the disambiguation page at the primary topic was deliberate to prevent the confusion of City of Carlisle with Carlisle, Cumbria it is part of set of moves in hand or planned to clarify the situation where the settlement and the administrative unit have effectively the same names. See also Salford as an example of this. Keith D (talk) 13:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Extending comment - by having the dab page at the primary topic also allows the easy identification of links that need to be dabed and fixed. If an article is at the primary topic then locating and fixing inadvertent links from other articles is difficult. Keith D (talk) 21:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support This is kind of an odd situation. We have a genuine city, and then a government entity called "city" which is not a city. When people refer to the City of Carlisle, they're usually referring to the actual city, and not a government entity with a confusing name that includes a ton of rural land. I would even go as far as moving City of Carlisle to City of Carlisle (Local government district) to make it clear that this "city" is not a city as anyone else understands it. A disambig link on top will be vital, saying something like This article is about the populated urban center. For its government entity, see City of Carlisle (Local government district). For other uses of Carlisle, see Carlisle (disambiguation) D O N D E groovily   Talk to me  13:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment A good comparison to this is Juneau, Alaska, another city whose government entity includes huge amounts of rural land as well as other towns, such as Douglas. In this case, there is no separate article for the government entity, despite its size. It might make sense to follow that precedent here and merge the two Carlisle articles into one. D O N D E groovily   Talk to me  13:44, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose largely for the same reasons as Keith D. In response to Donde's suggestion, given the different boundaries of the settlement and the government district, they obviously require separate articles. If you look at the content of the two, you'll see that the focus differs greatly (or for a more developed example check out Salford, Greater Manchester and City of Salford). The current dab setup is intended to avoid confusion between the two entities; the brief explanation makes the differences plain and the reader can choose which article is more relevant to them. Take a look at this news story for example; although it relates to Salford rather than Carlisle, it illustrates the problem of confusion. It opens with "Some school rebuilding projects across Salford could be axed after the council was told to make savings of about 40% to the budget". I'm looking to include this information in one of the articles but it's not clear whether the building projects are in the settlement or the borough; from my experience of having worked on a few borough articles I'd say it's probably the wider borough as in educational contexts sources usually refer to whole boroughs, but it's not explicitly clear and I'd need to find confirmation from somewhere else. By having a dab page we're trying to avoid this confusion. I'm worried that this is a knee-jerk reaction to the proposed moves of Plymouth and Cambridge. What we have here works so I don't see a need to change it. Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Nev1 and KeithD.  DC   T • C   02:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose, There is no use trying to guess which 'city' or article is the primary here. Also as KeithD pointed out, having Carlisle as a dab page provides an effective way to deal with differentiating between City of Carlisle and Carlisle, Cumbria. Additionally it is not just these two article that recieve lots of access; as terrible perhaps as it is, the redirect Carlisle Cullen gets lots of hits as well. -France3470 (talk) 20:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support Much more clear-cut than say Lincoln. I'm completely unmoved by these local government alternatives; this is certainly primary. Johnbod (talk) 20:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The claim for primary topic here is preposterous without basis.  The criteria is that anyone entering "Carlisle" is much more likely to be looking for this topic than any other, and more likely to be looking for this topic than all other topics combined.  Considering there are two dozen notable people with the surname listed on the Carlisle surname page, coupled with the reasonable assumption that people often look up people using a search by surname, that alone invalidates the primary topic claim.  Beyond that, there are a dozen other towns named Carlisle in the U.S. alone, and about a dozen other uses.  For a topic which gets only about 300 hits per month day and so many competing uses, there is no way this can be the primary topic.   --Born2cycle (talk) 00:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * 300 per month? While I agree that the article should stay where it is (although for different reasons) you've misread the figures. This article gets closer to 10,000 views per month. Nev1 (talk) 00:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, for some reason I thought each bar represented one month, not one day. Anyway, 10,000 per month is much more significant than 300, of course, but, even then, picking just one of the Carlisle people, Kitty Carlisle, she alone gets 5,000 hits per month.  City of Carlisle gets over 5,000 too; those two alone, together, get more hits than this article.   It's probably safe to say that this Carlisle is the most popular, but primary topic requires much more than that.  --Born2cycle (talk) 00:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: '''Speedy close as no move. It is only a month since the last request and nothing has changed since then. Lets get back to improving articles rather than wasting time on moving articles around.''' Keith D (talk) 17:32, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Carlisle, Cumbria → Carlisle — This is by far the most common use of the word, Carlisle was viewed 7322 times in 201009, while Carlisle, Cumbria was viewed 9949 times in 201009. Crouch, Swale  talk to me   My contribs  13:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * By far? City of Carlisle was viewed 5806 times in that same span.  That's well within an order of magnitude.  Powers T 14:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * But we have a hatnote, just like other places that have a local goverment district Crouch, Swale   talk to me   My contribs  15:33, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As explained in the above discussion, there has been some confusion between the government district and the settlement of the same name. This style of dab page has been adopted to avoid that problem as is used successfully elsewhere, ie: Salford. Nev1 (talk) 17:18, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Speedy close - the above move discussion finished only a month ago. Dpmuk (talk) 14:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Speedy close per Dpmuk. Nothing new; doesn't meet primary topic criteria.  Other uses of Carlisle are too busy.  --Born2cycle (talk) 00:42, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Speedy close Nev1 (talk) 17:18, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Toponymy
The section on Carlisle's name is vague, unsupported and in some cases inaccurate so I've replaced it.

 * The Romans called their settlement at what is today Carlisle, Luguvalium, as evidenced by Roman writing tablets recently excavated and displayed at Tullie House Museum, bearing this name as the address. Luguvalium can be interpreted from Latin as "the place, or wall (stronghold ?) of Lugus" (a local deity) [this theory has been refuted]. Around the 11th and 12th centuries, however, surviving documents show the place name spelt Caer (castle) Luel or Llewelyn [dates, sources?]. Luel, and its variants are Cumbric personal names [? evidence], and it has been proposed [by who?] that this was always the basis of the local name, which had been preserved by the continuity of Cumbric-speaking peoples in the area, from before the Roman imposition of a Latinised version [could the Luguvalium not just be a Latinised form of a British name, like Londinium etc? There's no evidence for an imposition here]]. The fact that Cumbria (from Cymru or similar roots) was held by the Celtic kings of Rheged in the 9th century [there's no evidence Rheged still existed this late] may have stimulated a revival of the Cumbric language and reinstatement of earlier Celtic place-names. Cumbric is no longer spoken, but the surviving Welsh language has Caerliwelydd as the modern name for Carlisle. Scots Gaelic has Cathair Luail as the modern name.

Psammead (talk) 20:03, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 3

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. I would recommend that this not be renominated again for a while unless there is something new. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Carlisle, Cumbria → Carlisle – Carlisle is a 2000 year old city in England of significant importance, something which is agreed on by the projects it is attached to. Why it should be competing with small towns in the US? I don't believe people searching for London, Arkansas are getting directed to the London (disambiguation) page. Also anyone searching for someone with the surname: Carlisle should really be typing the forename of said person. There are far more people with the surname York than Carlisle, yet the page York is linked (rightly) to the location: York.

Another problem is the way Carlisle is split into the location and County Borough, Government District. I can imagine most people looking for Carlisle, the location, would click on City of Carlisle which in most cases is not what they are looking for.

So please can we let the current Carlisle page be the Carlisle (disambiguation) page? If5tatement (talk) 00:15, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose just because it is 2000 years old doesn't mean it's an argument it should sit at the primary location. You haven't shown primarity over City of Carlisle. 65.93.12.8 (talk) 09:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Some local authorities that are named after their main settlements (Bradford, Oldham, Walsall and Chorley) have the settlement as the main topic and the district linked with a hatnote, others (Preston and Salford) have both disambiguated, and in some cases disambiguation is necessary for other reasons (such as Lancaster). There is nothing at NCGN - maybe discussion is needed. Are any other topics on the disambiguation page significant enough? Peter E. James (talk) 17:58, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose for the same reason as in October 2010 (which was per this reasoning). Nev1 (talk) 18:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose for consistency with other "City of..." articles. (I think there are some arguments in favour of the move but the debate needs to be at a national level as it's not just Carlisle that's affected.)
 * Note: attempted to preempt the result of this discussion by performing the move being debated. I believe I have undone what he/she did, and issued a user warning. (To add insult to injury the "move" was done as a copy-and-paste rather than a move.) --   Dr Greg   talk  19:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing a lot of districts which share their name with their major city like City of Carlisle. Yet there are relatively few which are disambiguated. So please explain how would it be consistent with other articles just because the district name begins with "City of"? When it comes down to it people searching for information on the administrative district should search for it specifically. The majority of people searching 'Carlisle' will be looking for information on the city, not a government entity it sits in. If5tatement (talk) 13:21, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose. There are too many other Carlisles (people and places, including the City of Carlisle) for this to direct to only one. Softlavender (talk) 11:24, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Surely the largest and most important should take precedence. Like so... London (disambiguation) Only one of the other 'Carlisle' locations has a population over 10,000. Most are under 5,000. Carlisle, Cumbria is of great historical importance, has a population over three times greater than the next highest on the list. If5tatement (talk)11:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Also once again, the 'City of Carlisle' is a 30 year old government entity, it should a sub topic of the Carlisle page. I really can't understand, if that is the reason, why the Carlisle page is disambiguated to prevent confusion with the government district it is in. The places in that district which are not Carlisle have their own pages and (take it from a resident of one of them) are not refereed to as being in Carlisle by the locals. It's called north east Cumbria, the name 'City of Carlisle' is used purely in a political context. If5tatement (talk) 11:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Put me down in support the next time this comes up. One side's editors may have been impolitic and overly hasty in resubmitting the votes above but, regardless, this page is the, the other side's various editors' misunderstandings of that concept aside. (Of course I am also in support of merging the bizarre City of Carlisle page here as well, so that would clearly establish this as the primary topic in everyone's eyes.) — Llywelyn II   09:23, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

City
The article has not mention that carlisle is a city, although the wider borough holds the city status many other in a similar position such as preston mention that they are a city. Currently as it currently only says county town which would imply that Carlisle is a town when it is not. C. 22468   Talk to me  12:54, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

 * That's because it's the borough which holds city status; the difference between the two is illustrated by the fact the settlement has a population of about 72,000 while about 101,000 live in the borough (according to the 2001 census). Nev1 (talk) 13:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

 * Would it be better to describe it as 'Carlisle Cathedral city and the County Town of Cumbria as just having the world County Town implies its a town. C. 22468   Talk to me  13:40, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

 * I have to say the whole "but the 'city' title applies to the whole area" reasoning just strikes me as ultra-pedantism in the extreme. Does anyone honestly think that when the title city was given to carlisle or when rejigged in 1974 it was meant to imply 400 sq miles of sheep grazing rather than the built-up area? Surely it makes more sense to say the area is administered by the city of carlisle (through carlisle city council) rather than actually being the city of carlisle? AnonymousCoward (talk) 10:54, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The district is due to be abolished and merged so it will be interesting to see what happens to the city status? Presumably either a civil parish will be formed or it will go to a charter trustees. When more is known this should at least be added to the district article.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Curse
Should probably just be moved to Curse of Carlisle rather than being treated as a section of the page here. Is currently ridiculously in violation of and needs a complete rewrite by someone familiar with (but not virulently partisan about) the stone controversy. — Llywelyn II   09:18, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

City Flag/Coat of Arms
The Carlisle City Flag and Coat of Arms should be on this page like most cities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:D437:700:557D:84CE:8FA:76D1 (talk) 01:41, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

 * See City of Carlisle, but I don't know how the city differs from the district. --Northernhenge (talk) 19:38, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think it should be on this page too, and the yellow city flag that flies over the old town hall & outside the civic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:D437:700:3810:285F:D5A2:C6F3 (talk) 22:43, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Does anyone know why this section keeps being deleted from the talk page? See this edit for example. Thanks --Northernhenge (talk) 20:28, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

 * It was my post that I deleted because of confusion between the settlement and district. I think the infobox is quite limiting and perhaps it should be changed to a settlement one. The settlement of Carlisle seems to be a city too but I'm not sure. A lot of information from the district page could be placed on to this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:D437:700:6472:F4A2:8897:7374 (talk) 01:44, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I understand the problem. Please see my post immediately above this one. This article is about the smaller urban area, not the larger district but the names are often confusing. It's unusual to delete material from a talk page - please see TPO for guidelines. It's better to reply to a comment instead of deleting it. Thanks for your efforts --Northernhenge (talk) 21:49, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Population debate
There seems to be an edit skirmish starting about Carlisle's population. The map at Visit Cumbria shows the county of Cumbria divided into large districts, one of which has the name "Carlisle". The map at the County Council shows the urban areas in Cumbria, one of which is also called "Carlisle". The urban area is much smaller than the wider district and therefore has a smaller population. This particular article is about the urban area so the smaller population figure is appropriate. --Northernhenge (talk) 20:26, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 20 August 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. <u style="color:#7f2ed1">The editor <u style="color:#bfa6d8"> whose username is <u style="color:#7f2ed1">Z0 07:05, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

– This Carlisle is clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in respect to long-term significance, it is the capital of Cumbria, a cathedral city and is the largest "official" city in England by area. It is also has around double the population of the others combined. In views [|Carlisle_United_F.C.|City_of_Carlisle|County_Borough_of_Carlisle|Carlisle,_Pennsylvania] it and its sub topics have the lions share of the views. Carlisle, Pennsylvania (named after it) is the next most notable and can probably have a specific hatnote like Worcester. As noted at Talk:Salford a topic may have several sub topics but the broadest meaning (the settlement) should be placed at the main space, people wanting the district or the football club will find them in the link. I'd point out that Hartwell previously had a primary topic even though one with over 44 times the population and not named after it exists, also Somerton had a primary topic even though there are larger ones. People searching for Carlisle Cullen or Kitty Carlisle would not expect to find those at "Carlisle" and the surname derives from this city.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 08:50, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Carlisle, Cumbria → Carlisle
 * Carlisle → Carlisle (disambiguation)

– Just noting this is at least the third time this has been discussed (see above) --Northernhenge (talk) 23:08, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Support. I agree the city in Cumbria is most significant. My support is weakened a little by the sheer number of other subjects with that name, but particularly given the original Cumbrian Carlisle's lengthy history I think it reaches the bar of primacy. ╠╣uw [ talk ]  14:25, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support - I'm sure even natives of Carlisle, Pennsylvania (pop under 20,000) would expect that to have the state disambiguator. Johnbod (talk) 14:37, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose but only because of confusion between Carlisle, Cumbria and City of Carlisle. The current Carlisle page is one way of keeping the distinction clear by giving us a place to explain it. --Northernhenge (talk) 22:59, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That could be used to disambiguate most major topics, for example London with City of London and Greater London but as noted the settlement article contains info on the district. Also "City of Carlisle" looks like it is about a settlement.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 11:41, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And we should use the article its self (which it does) to explain the difference.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 09:57, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support per everyone above - Clearly the PRIMARYTOPIC here. – Davey 2010 Talk 23:15, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. Clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

CCHT external link
This link was added to the article after discussion on the WP Reliable Sources Noticeboard. See: WP:RSN exercise. No information from the CCHT link has been put into the body of the article in the form of citations because it has not yet been verified for 100% accuracy by the Victoria County History project for Cumbria. (This will take some years to do). Laplacemat (talk) 10:47, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Arthurian legend
The following sentence is a non sequitur; I've moved it here in the hope that something might be gleaned from it...

Because Carlisle meant so much to King Arthur, it is also believed that King Arthur lived out his final days at a castle in Brittany, that has since been named the Château de Kerduel, situated a few miles from the Isle of Aval, thought to be the mythical island of Avalon. Bibliosporias (talk) 11:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Colin Seel Football Referee
I can't find any mention of Colin Seel who was a First Division and FA Cup Referee. Quite a celebratory in the 1970s. He grew up in Carlisle and still lives there. I think he deserves a mention. Cheryl Higham 77.102.117.160 (talk) 21:07, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Her Majesty's Theatre
I know the article has cited a source but that source is wrong. The theatre was situated towards the northern end of Lowther Street opposite what is now the entrance to The Lanes Car Park. The former Littlewoods department store (now part of the M&S store) was a cinema. Penrithguy (talk) 19:58, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Carlisle


text:
235 (number)

235 (two hundred [and] thirty-five) is the integer following 234 and preceding 236.

Additionally, 235 is:

 * a semiprime
 * a heptagonal number
 * a centered triangular number
 * therefore a figurate number in two ways
 * palindromic in bases 4 (32234), 7 (4547), 8 (3538), 13 (15113), and 46 (5546)
 * a Harshad number in bases 6, 47, 48, 95, 116, 189 and 231
 * a Smarandache–Wellin number

Also:
 * There are 235 different trees with 11 unlabeled nodes.
 * If an equilateral triangle is subdivided into smaller equilateral triangles whose side length is 1/9 as small, the resulting "matchstick arrangement" will have exactly 235 different equilateral triangles of varying sizes in it.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: 235 (number)


text:
Talk:One Worldwide Plaza

Untitled
Wikipedia as the Real Estate Section. No attempt at creating encyclopedic context: a raw advertisement --Wetman 21:34, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think the previous comment is a bit outdated now. However, I think we should just call this "Worldwide Plaza" and mention the three main buildings. It was built at the same time and it's effectively one big unit dm 05:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Multiple pictures?
I'm not sure why we have multiple pictures of essentially the same thing (eg: two of the towers, then two of the fountain) dm 04:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, I took two new pictures because I didn't like someone else's old ones. Now, don't peek at the record, but of each pair, which do you like better?  We should get rid of one of each, if others do not object, and I'll try not to object on the basis of pride if mine get the black ball.  Jim.henderson 04:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Well I dont care either, even though they were mine :) Tell you what, let's let the next person pick which two to keep. dm 07:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

 * So, interest does not seem intense except among us shutterbugs. I only took up photography {with a broken camera} a few weeks ago and this was one of my first subjects.  This month or next I hope to gain access to a roof that looks down on the #3 building, though maybe not down into the plaza.  If any of my pictures come out well, then we'll have five or maybe even six.  At that point the article will definitely be photo-heavy and we can move the majority to a Gallery or out of the article entirely.  In springtime I'll buy a camera that's not broken and maybe get on the roof for shots with a western rather than southern sun.  Meanwhile the article is only modestly heavy with photos, and I figure we can keep them until more arrive or other editors think trimming is already a good idea.  Jim.henderson (talk) 15:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

One and 1
I notice the name of the article has been moved back and forth without explanation here. If you intend to move it again, would you kindly explain why? And, while you're at it, why an article about three buildings and the plaza between should only have the name, in whatever version, of one of them? Jim.henderson (talk) 13:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * @Jim.henderson, at least regarding your second question, I agree. It's kind of weird that only one building in the complex is mentioned. The current article also attempts to cover 2 and 3 Worldwide Plaza, but these buildings are really only mentioned in the lead as an afterthought. I'm thinking of replacing the current version of the article with this draft in my userspace. There are a few things I should note, though:
 * First, I can really only find sources about the history of the office building, plaza, and theater. There is remarkably little coverage about the residential buildings' architecture, or about the history of the residential buildings after construction started. So the new article will still primarily be about One Worldwide Plaza.
 * Second, there are quite a few sources that refer to the office building as just "Worldwide Plaza" (neglecting the residential buildings entirely).
 * This is probably one of the most confusing situations I've encountered. The article should probably renamed Worldwide Plaza (New York City) anyway, and it will include some info about the plaza and residential buildings. Paradoxically though, most of the information will still be about the office building (the current subject of the article) due to the lack of sources that discuss the residential structures. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:16, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Drop the "one" and the "1"
I think we should move this article to "Worldwide Plaza" dm (talk) 04:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * this has been gone back and forth for some time...most of the more reputable sources (,, and ) refer to it as One Worldwide Plaza. --emerson7 06:05, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:One Worldwide Plaza


text:
Talk:Dirk Maggs

Dirk?
Most WP articles refer to the subject by surname not given name. The use of 'Dirk' throughout helps make this (somewhat sycophantic?) article read like a CV rather than an encyclopaedia entry. Stub Mandrel (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

 * I came here after listening to the Audible Sandman adaptations, the most ambitious audio drama in recent history.
 * The writing is sloppy and lopsided, but I hope by now people accept that the dude has earned his praises. At least it seems pretty on point to me. Dude has pushed the envelope in audio drama.
 * I wouldn’t mind seeing some credible sources or quotes that tell that story better, but I’m to lazy to do it today.
 * But calling a glowing write-up of a bigshot director “sycophantic” is not cool. The guy may be a big fish in a small pond, but that’s big fish nevertheless.
 * wikipedia must be neutral, but it goes beyond neutral to hide what differentiates one person in a category from another. That obscures why they are noteable to begin with. 185.40.120.113 (talk) 14:13, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

About Who?
So what exactly is this article about...Dirk Maggs or the Hitchhiker's Guide? If the former, it should be a, not a. Also, it needs a TON of more information.

 * The page STILL could use more information about Dirk Maggs, preferably information that isn't just a copy and paste from his "official website"! --JohnDBuell | Talk 03:46, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Most of the page is a lift from the Dirk Maggs website, there is also now a wiki which has most of his work listed and details, currrntly some 400 pages long. davew 09:17, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

 * An anonymous user made a large edit in November that was claimed to have come from an h2g2 entry. I'm not sure what the copyright status is for copying h2g2 entries into wikipedia, but if it feels like copyvio to you, feel free to fix it! --JohnDBuell 12:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Great the h2g2 entry is a lift from the Dirk Maggs website, Dirk has his own wiki at 82.6.93.2 20:46, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

 * So which came first? How do we know the same person didn't write both? *sigh* --JohnDBuell 21:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

removal of Press Comment section
I have removed the entire section "Press Comment". It consisted of a long long list of press quotations, which were apparently highly selective, given that they were all gushingly positive and many of them started or ended with ellipses. Even if this is the overwhelming opinion of the press, an encyclopaedia article should at least be selective, put the quotes in the right context and not give us a great wall of fragmentary prose. If there are dissenting voices, NPOV demands that they be heard. This whole section read like a press release, or advertising copy, not an encyclopaedia article. The material is still available in the history; please can we make more sensible use of it? --rbrwr± 23:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 one external links on Dirk Maggs. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060618213316/http://www.douglasadams.se:80/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5357 to http://www.douglasadams.se/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5357
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050207143342/http://www.dirkmaggs.dswilliams.co.uk:80/ to http://www.dirkmaggs.dswilliams.co.uk/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130926131502/http://crazydogaudiotheatre.com/leading-audio-producer-dirk-maggs-speaks-to-crazy-dogs-roger-gregg/ to http://crazydogaudiotheatre.com/leading-audio-producer-dirk-maggs-speaks-to-crazy-dogs-roger-gregg/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 17:51, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency?
Hello! Upon reviewing the article, I see it covers his adaptation of Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy but not the adaptation of Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency he also wrote. Is this a purposeful omission and if not, what information should be added? Thanks. 2breakfast (talk) 22:44, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dirk Maggs


text:
Golden syrup

Golden syrup or light treacle is a thick, amber-coloured form of inverted sugar syrup made by the process of refining sugar cane or sugar beet juice into sugar. It is used in a variety of baking recipes and desserts. It has an appearance and consistency similar to honey, and is often used as a substitute where honey is unavailable.

It is not to be confused with amber corn syrup or amber refined sugar. Regular molasses, or dark treacle (as well as cane syrup found in the southern US, such as Steen's cane syrup), has a richer colour and a strong, distinctive flavour. In Australia, golden syrup was also known as "cocky's joy" or "cocky's delight" through the first half of the 20th century, as it could be easily transported and thus was a favourite of cockys, a name for a small farmer.

Golden syrup was first formulated by the chemists Charles Eastick and his brother John Joseph Eastick at the Abram Lyle & Sons (now part of Tate & Lyle) refinery in Plaistow, Newham, London; their product was first canned and sold in 1885.

History
In 1863, Abram Lyle, owner of a cooperage, became owner of the Glebe Sugar Refinery in Greenock, in lieu of a debt. He became aware of the fact that a by-product of the sugar refining was a syrup which was usually sold off cheaply as pig-food. He thought that, given some adjustment, this syrup could be adapted for human consumption. His company did well and expanded to London.

In 1883, Charles Eastick, an English chemist at the Abram Lyle & Sons refinery in Plaistow, east London, further formulated how sugar could be refined to make a preserve and sweetener for cooking, bringing it to its current recipe. Charles and his brother John Joseph Eastick experimented with the refining process of the bitter molasses-brown treacle—hitherto a waste by-product of sugar refining—into an eminently palatable syrup with the viscosity, hue, and sweetness of honey. The resulting product was marketed commercially in 1885 as "golden syrup". The name "golden syrup" in connection with molasses had occurred, however, as early as 1840 in an Adelaide newspaper, the South Australian.

The tin bears a picture of the rotting carcass of a lion with a swarm of bees and the advertising slogan "Out of the strong came forth sweetness". The slogan, chosen by Abram Lyle, is a reference to the Biblical story in chapter 14 of the Book of Judges in which Samson was travelling to the land of the Philistines in search of a wife. During the journey he killed a lion, and when he passed the same spot on his return he noticed that a swarm of bees had formed a comb of honey in the carcass. Samson later turned this into a riddle at a wedding: "Out of the eater came forth meat and out of the strong came forth sweetness". While it is not known exactly why this image and slogan were chosen, Abram Lyle was a deeply religious man, and it has been suggested that they refer either to the strength of the Lyle company or the tins in which golden syrup is sold, or simply to the process of refining sweet syrup from bitter ("strong") treacle. In 1904, they were registered together as a trademark, and in 2006 Guinness World Records declared the mark to be the world's oldest branding and packaging. Lyle's golden syrup was awarded a Royal Warrant in 1911.

In 1921, Lyle's business merged with Tate, a sugar-refining firm founded by Sir Henry Tate in 1859, to become Tate & Lyle. In 2010, Tate & Lyle sold its sugar refining and golden syrup business to American Sugar Refining.

Originally, golden syrup was a product made at the white sugar refinery from the recovered mother liquor (recovered molasses) "washed" off the raw sugar crystals in the process of creating white sugar. This liquor is generally known as refiner's return syrup. Today most golden syrups are produced by a specialist manufacturer by inverting half the refiner's return syrup to fructose and glucose and blending it back again; this ensures the product remains liquid and will never re-crystallise.

Production
The free glucose and fructose present in golden syrups are more water-soluble than the original sucrose. As a result, golden syrups are less likely to crystallize than a pure sucrose syrup. The free fructose content gives the syrup a taste sweeter than that of an equivalent solution of white sugar; when substituting golden syrup for white sugar, about 25% less golden syrup is needed for the same level of sweetness.

The term invert comes from the method used for assessing sugar syrups. The plane of linear polarised light passed through a sample of pure sucrose solution is rotated to the right. As the solution is converted to a mixture of sucrose, fructose and glucose, the angle of rotation reduces, through zero and then increases in the opposite direction, thus the direction appears to have been inverted compared to light passed through the sucrose solution.

Home-made
Golden syrup is often made at home when unavailable. Water and sugar are stirred over heat until boiling, with citric acid added to enhance inversion of sucrose. The mixture is slowly boiled without stirring until it is thick and amber colored. At this point much of the sucrose will have inverted to fructose and glucose, and caramelization will have created other chemicals in addition to darkening the color.

Commercial
Refiner's syrup begins as a high-Brix, pale sucrose syrup made from white sugar and water, designed to loosen the dried molasses found on raw sugar crystals. The sucrose-saturated content of the initial "green" syrup impedes sugar crystals from dissolving during the process of washing. The purpose is to mix the green syrup with raw sugar crystals to form a "magma" of 8–10% moisture content at around 60–65°C, which is then washed with water in a centrifuge. After the first washing (often termed affination), the "washed off" molasses combines with the sucrose syrup to generate refiner's return syrup, which is generally re-used several times until deemed spent. The spent refiner's return syrup is sold off to manufacturers for golden syrup production or is sent to a recovery section of the refinery often called the remelt house or boil-out section. Here it is reheated to crystallize and recover the sucrose it contains and that is returned to the affination stage. The final spent syrup remaining after the recovery process is sold as treacle (often called refiner's molasses in older texts).

An equivalent golden syrup product may be made from beet sugar by processing the clarified, partially evaporated beet juice to break down (invert) most of the disaccharide sucrose into its constituent monosaccharides glucose and fructose. In this process, none of the sucrose is ever crystallized from the beet juice. Inversion may be done by acid hydrolysis or by adding the enzyme invertase. This produces a free flowing (invert) syrup that will not crystallize. Typically in acid hydrolysis, the disaccharides are split by hydrochloric acid, resulting in a solution that is acidic; neutrality is restored by the addition of lye (sodium hydroxide). As a result, syrup made by this method contains some common salt (sodium chloride).

Availability
Golden syrup is widely available across the world, made either from sugar cane or sugar beet.

Lyle's Golden Syrup, made by American Sugar Refining under the licensed brand, Tate & Lyle, remains one of the best known UK brands. There are two other UK sugar refiners: British Sugar, which makes an equivalent product under its Silver Spoon brand; and Ragus Sugars, which makes the Eastick's & Ragus Golden Syrup brand.

In South Africa, the most popular brands are the locally produced Illovo golden syrup and the imported Lyle's Golden Syrup. In addition to the classic golden syrup, several flavoured versions are also marketed, notably maple flavour.

In Australia, CSR Limited is the major producer, but it is also produced by Bundaberg Sugar and Smith's.

In New Zealand, Chelsea golden syrup has been a household name since the late 19th century.

Rogers Golden Syrup and Lyle's golden syrup are available in Canada. In Canada, Lyle's Golden Syrup is available in either a glass jar or the traditional tin.

King brand syrup, a mixture of corn syrup and invert syrup, is sold in many areas of the US, often grouped with table syrups like maple syrup. Speciality stores or those with international sections, such as Whole Foods Market and Cost Plus World Market, often stock Lyle's golden syrup from the UK in several different packs.

In Germany, a similar product called Zuckerrübensirup (literally "sugar-beet syrup") is a popular spread, especially in the western part of the country around Cologne. The best known producer is the Grafschafter Krautfabrik which has produced Zuckerrübensirup for more than a hundred years. This syrup is almost always made from sugar-beet; golden syrup from sugar cane is extremely rare on the German market. There are two types of Zuckerrübensirup in Germany, a golden one, similar to golden syrup from sugar cane, and a brown syrup which is similar to dark treacle. The German company Schneekoppe makes a product called Frühstücks-Sirup (breakfast syrup), which is a golden syrup with some added natural flavor to imitate the taste of honey.

In Sweden and Denmark there is both a light and a dark golden syrup, beet based.

Properties
Golden syrup is a Newtonian fluid. Its density is approximately 1430 kg·m−3 at room temperature, and its viscosity is 210 Pa·s at 12 °C. It is useful in experimental fluid dynamics, being cheap, transparent and non-toxic.

title: Golden syrup


text:
List of Stanley Cup champions

The Stanley Cup is a trophy awarded annually to the playoff champion club of the National Hockey League (NHL) ice hockey league. It was donated by the Governor General of Canada Lord Stanley of Preston in 1892, and is the oldest professional sports trophy in North America. Inscribed the Dominion Hockey Challenge Cup, the trophy was first awarded to Canada's amateur ice hockey clubs who won the trophy as the result of challenge games and league play. Professional clubs came to dominate the competition in the early years of the twentieth century, and in 1913 the two major professional ice hockey organizations, the National Hockey Association (NHA), forerunner of the NHL, and the Pacific Coast Hockey Association (PCHA), reached a gentlemen's agreement in which their respective champions would face each other in an annual series for the Stanley Cup. After a series of league mergers and folds, it became the de facto championship trophy of the NHL in 1926, though it was nominally still subject to external challenge. After 1947, the Cup became the de jure NHL championship prize.

From 1915 to the end of the 2023–24 season, the trophy has been won 108 times. 27 teams have won the cup, 22 of which are still active in the NHL. Prior to that, the challenge cup was held by nine teams. The Montreal Canadiens have won the Stanley Cup 24 times and made the Finals an additional 11 times. There were two years when the Stanley Cup was not awarded: 1919, because of the Spanish flu pandemic, and 2005, because of the 2004–05 NHL lockout.

The most recent winners of the Stanley Cup are the Florida Panthers, who won the 2024 Stanley Cup Finals.

Challenge Cup era (1893–1914)

The origins of the Challenge era come from the method of play of the Amateur Hockey Association of Canada prior to 1893. From 1887 to 1893, the league did not play a round-robin format, but rather challenges between teams of the association that year, with the winner of the series being the 'interim' champion, with the final challenge winner becoming the league champion for the year. The Stanley Cup kept the tradition going, but added league championships as another way that a team could win the trophy. If a team in the same league as the current champion won the league championship, it would then inherit the Cup, without a challenge. The only time this rule was not followed was in 1904, when the Ottawa Senators club withdrew from its league, the CAHL. The trustees ruled that the Cup stayed with Ottawa, instead of the CAHL league champion.

During the challenge cup period, none of the leagues that played for the trophy had a formal playoff system to decide their respective champions; whichever team finished in first place after the regular season won the league title. A playoff would only be played if teams tied for first-place in their leagues at the end of the regular season. Challenge games were played until 1912 at any time during hockey season by challenges approved and/or ordered by the Stanley Cup trustees. In 1912, Cup trustees declared that it was only to be defended at the end of the champion team's regular season.

In 1908, the Allan Cup was introduced as the trophy for Canada's amateurs, as the Stanley Cup became a symbol of professional hockey supremacy.

This table lists the outcome of all Stanley Cup wins, including successful victories and defenses in challenges, and league championships for the challenge era.

A. Although the Montreal Victorias won the AHAC title in 1895, the Stanley Cup trustees had already accepted a challenge from the 1894 Cup champion Montreal HC and Queen's University. As a compromise, the trustees decided that if the Montreal HC won the challenge match, the Victorias would become the Stanley Cup champions. The Montreals eventually won the game, 5–1, and their crosstown rivals were awarded the Cup.
 * Notes

B. Intended to be a best-of-three series, Ottawa Capitals withdrew their challenge after the first game.

C. The January 31 (a Saturday) game was tied 2–2 at midnight and the Mayor of Westmount refused to allow play to continue on Sunday. The game was played on February 2 (a Monday) and the January 31 game was considered to be void.

D. For most of 1904, the Ottawa Hockey Club was not affiliated with any league.

E. The Montreal Wanderers were disqualified as the result of a dispute. After game one ended tied at the end of regulation, 5–5, the Wanderers refused to play overtime with the current referee, and then subsequently refused to play the next game of the series in Ottawa.

F. During the series, it was revealed that the Victoria club had not filed a formal challenge. A letter arrived from the Stanley Cup trustees on March 17, stating that the trustees would not let the Stanley Cup travel west, as they did not consider Victoria a proper challenger because they had not formally notified the trustees. However, on March 18, Trustee William Foran stated that it was a misunderstanding. PCHA president Frank Patrick had not filed a challenge because he had expected Emmett Quinn, president of the NHA to make all of the arrangements in his role as hockey commissioner, whereas the trustees thought they were being deliberately ignored. In any case, all arrangements had been ironed out and the Victoria challenge was accepted.

 * Sources:
 * Montreal Gazette
 * Ottawa Citizen
 * Ottawa Journal
 * Winnipeg Tribune
 * Winnipeg Tribune

NHA/NHL vs. PCHA/WCHL/WHL champions (1915–1926)
Several days after the Victoria Aristocrats – Toronto Hockey Club series, Stanley Cup trustee William Foran wrote to NHA president Emmett Quinn that the trustees are "perfectly satisfied to allow the representatives of the three pro leagues (NHA, PCHA, and Maritime) to make all arrangements each season as to the series of matches to be played for the Cup." The Maritime league did not challenge for the Cup in 1914, and folded after the 1915 season. The Stanley Cup championship finals alternated between the East and the West each year, with games played alternately under NHA or PCHA rules. The Cup trustees agreed to this new arrangement, because after the Allan Cup became the highest prize for amateur hockey teams in Canada, the trustees had become dependent on the top two professional leagues to bolster the prominence of the trophy. After the New Westminster Royals moved to Portland in the summer of 1914 becoming the Portland Rosebuds, an American-based team, the trustees issued a statement that the Cup was no longer for the best team in Canada, but now for the best team in the world. In March 1916, the Rosebuds became the first American team to play in the Stanley Cup championship final. In 1917, the Seattle Metropolitans became the first American team to win the Cup. After that season, the NHA suspended operations and the National Hockey League (NHL) took its place.

In 1919, the Spanish influenza epidemic forced the Montreal Canadiens and the Seattle Metropolitans to cancel their series tied at 2–2–1, marking the first time the Stanley Cup was not awarded.

The format for the Stanley Cup championship changed in 1922, with the creation of the Western Canada Hockey League (WCHL). Now three leagues competed for the Cup and this necessitated a semi-final series between two league champions, with the third having a bye directly to the final. In 1924, the PCHA folded and only the Vancouver and Victoria teams entered the WCHL. With the loss of the PCHA, the championship reverted to a single series. After their win in 1925, the Victoria Cougars became the last team outside the NHL to win the Stanley Cup. For the 1925–26 season the WCHL was renamed the Western Hockey League (WHL). With the Victoria Cougars' loss in 1926, it would be the last time a non-NHL team competed for the Stanley Cup.

 * Numbers in parentheses in the table indicate the number of times that team has appeared in the Stanley Cup Finals, as well as each respective teams' Stanley Cup Finals record to date.

NHL champions (since 1927)
When the WHL folded in 1926, its remaining assets were acquired by the NHL, making it the only remaining league with teams competing for the Cup. Other leagues and clubs have issued challenges, but from that year forward no non-NHL team has played for it, leading it to become the de facto championship trophy of the NHL. In 1947, the NHL reached an agreement with trustees P. D. Ross and Cooper Smeaton to grant control of the Cup to the NHL, allowing the league itself to reject challenges from other leagues that may have wished to play for the Cup. A 2006 Ontario Superior Court case found that the trustees had gone against Lord Stanley's conditions in the 1947 agreement. The NHL has agreed to allow other teams to play for the Cup should the league not be operating, as was the case in the 2004–05 NHL lockout.

Since 1927, the league's playoff format, deciding which teams advanced to the Stanley Cup Finals, has changed multiple times. In some systems that were previously used, playoff teams were seeded regardless of division or conference. From 1942 to 1967 the Cup was competed for by the league's six teams, also known as the Original Six. For three seasons after the 1967 NHL Expansion, the Finals was competed between the East Division champion and the West Division champion. In 1971, the league returned to using playoff systems that allowed cross-over between the divisions and conferences. From 1982 to 2020, the Finals was played between the league's conference playoff champions; during that period the Campbell/Western champions went a combined 111–101 in the Finals against the Wales/Eastern champions (winning 20 of 38 series). In 2021, the COVID-19 pandemic and the resulting travel restrictions along the Canada–United States border forced the league to temporarily realign the teams into four regional divisions with no conferences, and hold a divisional-based playoff format: the four divisional playoff champions advanced to the Stanley Cup Semifinals, and the winners of those series moved on to the Finals. The league then returned to the Eastern vs. Western Conference format in 2022.

 * Numbers in parentheses in the table indicate the number of times that team has appeared in the Stanley Cup Finals, as well as each respective team's Stanley Cup Finals record to date.

 * Championships summary
 * 1927–1928: American Division vs. Canadian Division
 * 1929–1967, 1971–1981, 2021: Teams advanced to the Finals regardless of division or conference
 * 1968–1970: East Division vs. West Division
 * 1982–1993: Campbell Conference vs. Prince of Wales Conference
 * 1994–2020, 2022–: Eastern Conference vs. Western Conference

Challenge Cup era (1893–1914)
Legend: SC = successful Stanley Cup challenge or defense of championship (win); UC = unsuccessful Stanley Cup challenge or defense of championship (loss); Years in bold denote a Stanley Cup win.

The following 16 teams unsuccessfully challenged for a Stanley Cup only once: Berlin Dutchmen (1910), Dawson City Nuggets (1905), Halifax Crescents (1900), Moncton Victorias (1912), Montreal Canadiens (1914), New Glasgow Cubs (1906), Ottawa Capitals (1897), Ottawa Victorias (1908), Port Arthur Bearcats (1911), Smiths Falls (1906), Sydney Millionaires (1913), Toronto Marlboros (1904), Toronto Professionals (1908), Toronto Wellingtons (1902), Victoria Aristocrats (1914), Winnipeg Rowing Club (1904).

Active teams
In the sortable table below, teams are ordered first by number of appearances, then by number of wins, and finally by alphabetical order. In the "Season(s)" column, bold years indicate winning Stanley Cup Finals appearances. Unless marked otherwise, teams played in the NHL exclusively at the time they competed for the Stanley Cup.

Five active teams have yet to make a Stanley Cup Finals appearance. Three of these teams have remained in the same location since their inceptions:
 * Columbus Blue Jackets (23 seasons, 6 playoffs)
 * Minnesota Wild (23 seasons, 13 playoffs, 1 division title)
 * Seattle Kraken (3 seasons, 1 playoff)

The other two teams have relocated and have not made the Finals in either location:
 * Atlanta Thrashers (11 seasons, 1 playoff, 1 division title) / Winnipeg Jets (13 seasons, 7 playoffs)
 * Winnipeg Jets (original team) (17 seasons, 11 playoffs) / Phoenix/Arizona Coyotes (27 seasons, 9 playoffs, 1 division title)

Five relocated teams that have won the Stanley Cup in their current locations and never in their former locations:
 * Quebec Nordiques (16 seasons, 9 playoffs, 2 division titles) – won 3 Stanley Cups as Colorado Avalanche
 * Kansas City Scouts (2 seasons, never made playoff contention)/Colorado Rockies (6 seasons, 1 playoff) – won 3 Stanley Cups as New Jersey Devils
 * California Golden Seals (9 seasons, 2 playoffs)/Cleveland Barons (2 seasons, never made playoff contention) – merged with Minnesota North Stars who lost twice in the Finals then won the Stanley Cup once as Dallas Stars
 * Atlanta Flames (8 seasons, 6 playoffs) – won Stanley Cup once as Calgary Flames
 * Hartford Whalers (18 seasons, 8 playoffs, 1 division title) – won Stanley Cup once as Carolina Hurricanes

Defunct teams
Listed after the team name is the name of the affiliated league(s) when the team competed for the Stanley Cup. A bold year denotes a Stanley Cup win.

 * Notes
 * The Montreal Canadiens and the Seattle Metropolitans appearance totals include the 1919 Stanley Cup Finals that ended with a no-decision because of the Spanish flu epidemic. It is not considered an official series win or loss by either team.
 * The franchise known today as the Toronto Maple Leafs won the Cup in 1918 as the Toronto Hockey Club (later engraved on the Stanley Cup as the Toronto Arenas in 1947), and in 1922 as the Toronto St. Patricks.
 * The Chicago Blackhawks were known as the Chicago Black Hawks prior to the 1986–87 season.
 * The Dallas Stars totals include two series losses as the Minnesota North Stars.
 * The Anaheim Ducks totals include one series loss as the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim.
 * The Ottawa Senators (1992–present) are named after the original Senators (1883–1934).

title: List of Stanley Cup champions