text:
Talk:Alexander Berkman

Henry Clay Frick
i would be so pissed off if this retard came into my office and tried to kill me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.139.207.240 (talk • contribs) April 2, 2006 9:08 (UTC)

So would I, but Henry Clay Frick was a product of his time, and probably would have hired Pinkertons to kill you. Pustelnik (talk) 15:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

"Radical anarchists"
Does anyone alse think that adding "radical" to the term "anarchist" is a bit redundant? It sounds like my right-wing history teacher talking about it. Murderbike (talk) 18:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. If it isn't already there, "radical" should probably be on the list of Words to avoid. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 22:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Me three. --Lquilter (talk) 02:57, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed them, and reworded a few more things as well. Anybody else bothered by the last line? It seems silly to put something like "ironically" in an encyclopedia, though I can't figure how to re-word that sentence. Murderbike (talk) 03:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There's an editor whose stated mission is to go around fixing sentences that start with the word "Ironically". Rather than wait for him, I'll try to fix it myself. [[Image:Smile.png|16px]] Happy holidays. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Conflicting info about Berkman's conviction
Please see Talk:Emma_Goldman. Thanks. Kaldari (talk) 19:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Rockefeller bombing
Per WP:UNDUE:
 * An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

According to this section of the article, which is completely unsourced, Berkman may or may not have had something to do with the plot. Yet there are two paragraphs about the bombing. It's practically as long as the discussion of the Frick assassination attempt.

In the interest of accurately portraying Berkman's life, I think (a) allegations that Berkman was associated with the bombing plot need to be sourced and (b) the whole section needs to be pruned to a reasonable length. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 06:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the second paragraph of the section especially needs to be edited down and perhaps merged with the first paragraph. And any statements that are not historical consensus need to state who is claiming them in the text. Kaldari (talk) 01:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The material in the Rockefeller bombing is ALL sourced; it's all revealed in anarchist historian Paul Avrich's extensive research of the bombing as well as oral history interviews of anarchists who personally knew the parties involved - for those who care to inform themselves about it. Since Berkman was a key figure in the plot, it's hard to cut much more out of it without excising the key facts, but I tried.  I find it humorous that my additions on the botched Attentat and Emma Goldman's horsewhipping of Johann Most go completely unremarked, but hey, list some added unsavory facts about a violent anarchist's involvement in a bombing, and everybody think's it's "unduly weighted".  Please don't forget that 'propaganda by the deed' anarchists of that day like Luigi Galleani, unlike later communist activists, made little attempt to hide their pride in their right to attack 'capitalist' targets except as needed to avoid immediate arrest and prosecution.12.72.119.68 (talk) 00:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC) Don

 * Editor Malik Shabazz persists in removing all referenced facts concerning Louise Berger. Berger was Emma Goldman's and Alexander Berkman's close friend ("our great friend"), and editor at Mother Earth News.  Specifically, he has a problem with Berkman's and Goldman's famous Manifesto, carried by Berger to Russia to read to Russian leaders (comrades).  He's also removed references to her membership in the Lettish Anarchist Red Cross, references to her in the Emma Goldman article (now locked), even removing 'see also' links that would provide some insight on her life and role in Berkman's life during a critical period 1914-1917.  Louise wasn't just some 'casual' acquaintance, but reading both the Goldman and Berkman articles, you wouldn't even know that they wrote a Manifesto to Russia at all.  At least someone could create for Louise Berger a separate article page, and allow it to be linked to the Berkman article, i.e. Louise Berger??12.72.119.139 (talk) 17:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

 * You don't understand the importance of staying on-topic. The anecdote about Louise Berger would be interesting in an article about Louise Berger. It has almost nothing to do with Berkman. And Wikilinking her name to Anarchist Black Cross is misleading. The appropriate link for her name is a red link. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 17:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you're taking a view of 'off-topic' that in reality approaches POV editing, and has resulted, combined with your other efforts, in a quite 'sanitized' bio of both Berkman and Goldman, carefully shorn of all contacts they made over the years with shall we say, less-than-non-violent persons. But I'll call your bluff...so...why not help us out and create a Louise Berger page for us? Please? Then we could add the material on Berger, and link it to Berkman with a nice BLUE link to Berger's name, which you would then allow to stand and not delete it, rather than removing a lot of research and work by those who have gone before?  Would be grateful...12.72.119.139 (talk) 17:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you're mistaken. I copy-edited what you left here about Berkman's involvement in the Rockefeller bombing. With respect to Russia, you finally crafted a paragraph that focused on Berkman instead of Berger. I fixed it for accuracy. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 18:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As an FYI, Louise Berger was requested at WP:AFC and has been created. Please feel free to jump in and improve it!  TN ‑  X   - Man  14:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Revisions
Over the next few days, I'll be making some revisions to the article, adding some material to it, adding sources, and maybe correcting a few factual errors. Please bear with me while the article is under construction.

I'd like to get the article to Good article status. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:07, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

 * PS: Some portions of my revisions have been cribbed from Emma Goldman, because it didn't make sense to rewrite paragraphs that applied equally to both Berkman and Goldman. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:26, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Looks great so far; I don't think anyone will object if you want to make sweeping changes. Let us know if there's anything specific you want help with. Best, Skomorokh  03:35, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the feedback. Things went quicker than I expected, and I think I'm finished for now. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 07:36, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wait a minute, you can't just copy text verbatim from the Emma Goldman article and use it to replace sections here. That's a violation of the GFDL licensing (as the attribution history for that text has not been preserved). It also makes this article quite boring, as no one wants to read the exact same text twice. I feel strongly that those sections should be reverted to their previous content. Kaldari (talk) 16:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And as another example of why it's a bad idea, someone has brought up concerns about the accuracy of the Homestead plot section of the Emma Goldman article. I came here to compare what this article said, but since it's the same text verbatim, there was nothing for me to learn. Also, this article now has the same inaccuracies as the Goldman article concerning the Homestead Plot (assuming some of the concerns brought up are legitimate). Kaldari (talk) 16:24, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware of the GFDL issue. I won't revert to the previous language, which in my opinion is inadequate, but I'll rewrite the relevant sections. — Malik Shabazz 18:07, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I've rewritten the sections that I had copied from Emma Goldman. — Malik Shabazz 04:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Kaldari (talk) 04:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As some sections were still far too similar to the original wording in the Emma Goldman article, I have revised them further. There are still a few parts that need work, however. For example, the sentence which begins "Worse, Berkman's attentat had failed..." is still virtually identical to the sentence in Emma Goldman. Kaldari (talk) 19:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Death of Berkman
Yes it would be nice with some clarifications, but in her book May Picqueray only expressed doubts and she has not printed anything more precise on the matter. I know what she meant with her doubts. They implicated private life and had no political importance. Mio Nielsen--82.125.57.99 (talk) 19:01, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you offer anything more specific? A quote from Picqueray's book would be most efficacious. Kaldari (talk) 19:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It runs like this: "Le 28 juin 1936, je reçois un coup de fil d'Emma m'apprenant l'atroce, l'affreuse nouvelle, d'une voix brisée, à peine audible: Sacha venait de mourir. Dans une crise de dépression, il s'était tiré un coup de revolver. Le connaissant bien, je ne pouvais y croire et, aujourd'hui encore, si je pleure sa mort, un doute me tenaille le coeur." (My english is not safe enough to make a translation).

In her family we all knew what May thought about the death of Berkman, or rather: we knew what she knew about it. If she expressed it as a doubt in her book, it is - in my opinion -, because she still felt some obligations to be loyal... She had been a daily visitor in the home of Emma in St. Tropez, being engaged to typewrite a manuscript... She knew the couple very well. M.N.--83.200.157.7 (talk) 16:49, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Thank you very much. Based on Google's translation, with my own tweaks:
 * On June 28, 1936, I received a phone call from Emma telling me the awful, terrible news, in a broken voice, barely audible: Sasha had died. In a bout of depression, he had fired a revolver. Knowing him well, I could not believe it and even today, if I mourn his death, doubt plagues [or torments] my heart.

A small correction of the translation: The french text says distinctly "fired a revolver on himself".--83.200.222.209 (talk) 10:34, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm. What do others make of this? — Malik Shabazz 21:43, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Answer: A friend and anarchist historian, who had just written an article telling the usual version of the death of Berkman were very surprised when I told her what May meant with her doubts in her book. She knew the book well enough and told me that she had read the doubt-lines as being a bit fantastical and probably trying to implicate the police or some foreign CIA-KGB. She had, in consequence, never asked May about the meaning. She obviously believed me and were very pleased to have the information, but after a rapid afterthought she said: "I will never change my version of the death of Berkman". --83.200.157.7 (talk) 06:40, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I would be more comfortable including it if it were discussed in a secondary source, rather than just a primary source. Otherwise, it feels a bit ORish to me. Kaldari (talk) 23:36, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Answer: I dont blame you feeling like that--83.200.157.7 (talk) 09:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * For an encyclopedia article, I think having Goldman's thoughts concerning Berkman's death would be more appropriate. It's just a bit too out-on-a-limb for us to be the first source giving credence to May's doubts. If a magazine article or book ever deems it notable and credible enough to discuss, I think we would be safe to include it as well. Perhaps you should get in touch with the Fifth Estate magazine or some similar publication and see if they would be interested in delving into it further. Kaldari (talk) 16:22, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I don't think it's WP:OR if we repeat somebody's opinion and cite it as such. I'm concerned that Picqueray is little known in the English-speaking world, her "doubts" are only hinted at and—as you say—we probably shouldn't be the first English language source to publish them. — Malik Shabazz 22:45, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm going to remove the sentence for now, but I would encourage the editor who added it to try publicizing the issue elsewhere. If it gets some traction, I'm sure we can revisit the issue later. Kaldari (talk) 15:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

"Soviet use of violence"
I just removed reference to Berkman's supposed objection to "soviet use of violence" as this is overly broad. AB was opposed to broad use of terror after the revolution was secure and was opposed to the repression of anarchists. But certainly he supported some measure of violence to preserve the revolution from white Russians, as indicated in his statement in support of the Kronstadt rebels:

[http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/kronstadt/berkkron.html ::White-guardist bands wish and may try to exploit this dissatisfaction in their own class interests. Hiding behind the workers and sailors they throw out slogans of the Constituent Assembly, of free trade, and similar demands.::::We Anarchists have long exposed the fiction of these slogans, and we declare to the whole world that we will fight with arms against any counter-revolutionary attempt, in coöperation with all friends of the Social Revolution and hand in hand with the Bolsheviki.::::Concerning the conflict between the Soviet Government and the workers and sailors, we hold that it must be settled not by force of arms, but by means of comradely agreement.::] GPRamirez5 (talk) 04:33, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 07:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Russian-American
I'm not sure of whether that's correct as he never was a US citizen? Synotia (talk) 16:46, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alexander Berkman


text:
User talk:Nat Krause/Archive3

Sorry...
Someone seems to be mistaking me for you and I ain't no glove puppet! Moreover, I am not sure I understand him/her. (20040302)

Lol - he knows that you and I are distinct now. Hope all is well! Thanks for the understanding. I'll send you a picture one day. (20040302)

Abolitionism
Why did you remove references to Abolitionism from the Buddhism article?

Wikimedia Commons
Hello Nat, I notice you uploaded a photograph from Wikimedia Commons. Did you know that you can link directly to images in Wikimedia Commons without uploading them into the English Wikipedia? You don't even have to write Wikimedia Commons in the link --- write the link just as if the image were on the English Wikipedia. A real time-saver! Fg2 10:00, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

Shakyamuni
The copyright tag is, a tag accepted by Wikipedia. You can find out if you doubleclick on the image, then go to the site where I downloaded the image from, and then click on the "creative commons" logo. Then you'll see that the images can even be used for commercial purposes. Anyway, this site is a treasure-trove, full of photos that can be used in so many of Wikipedia articles. JoJan 06:46, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Appreciation
Just wanted to say thanks for your recent (and long-standing, of course) work on Buddhism-related articles! Much appreciated. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 21:50, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Libertarian Capitalism
Hi, I'd lie to remove the redirect in Libertarian Capitalism -- the edit, as you have it, removes some important information, and I don't think we're likely to achieve consensus anytime soon regarding making Libertarianism into a disambiguation page, which I think would be more ideal. Pending consensus for that, I think we should at least have the information and links on Libertarian Capitalism. --Improv 06:11, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

John Randolph Club
Thanks for your excellent contributions to the John Randolph Club. I have learned from your example.

-- Eric 11:56, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Japan and Western Europe
A Comparative Presentation of Their Social Histories By Franz Oppenheimer

13 pages - sendto: ??

Did you know
It's not bad form to list that article if it's still younger than 72 hours, but to ensure all featured articles have sufficient exposure the current section will be up until 15:00 UTC today (December 6). Hopefully it's still fresh enough to add after that. Consider submitting articles on the day of their creation to be sure of their inclusion. And (of course) make sure they contain some interesting facts, which I believe this entry did. :-) Happy editing! [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 10:44, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

Yamantaka
Hi Nat! Good to hear from you. Yes - time has suddenly been in short supply once more, and my WP involvement has taken a hit. Regarding the copy for Yamantaka - you are right! I know the author well, and he is quite happy about the copy re-appearing on WP. However, it's status is pretty much placeholder text - I should expand on it sometime...

I would really like to author a page for ishtadevata/yidam too, but the background is quite complex, and there are several differing opinions.

How goes everything? (20040302 08:33, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC))

Article Licensing
Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 1000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:
 * Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
 * Multi-Licensing Guide
 * Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the " " template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

 * Option 1
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

OR
 * Option 2
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions to any U.S. state, county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace " " with "  ". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

Barghouti or Barghouthi
Marwan and Mustafa are from the same famly so their names should be spelled the same way. Google hits are 640,000 for Barghouti but only 85,700 for Barghouthi. You can change it back if you feel stromgly about your sources. It just seems inconsistent. --Alberuni 04:55, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Basketball positions
Hey, all the basketball position pages say "in a regulation basketball game", but the positions aren't really regulated - just universally accepted. Doesn't "regulation" imply that they're written down in the regulations? Just a thought. Neonumbers 09:58, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hey, I'm trying to think of a way to express that without using too many words, it's not proving easy... I would've said "normally used in a basketball game" but I don't know if "basketball" is generally accepted to include street games (I'm a basketballer but I don't know anything about variations). "Standard" would work, but if we could just find a word that means, well, the word we're looking for, then that would be best (if there is one). Saying that they're universally accepted is another option, but again that overlooks variations a bit. I'm stuck for ideas... if I get one, I'll get back to you before I change it. Neonumbers 10:11, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Vajradhatu vs garbhadhatu
The image you added to Vairocana calls it a Garbhadhatu mandala, this being the Sanskrit name for the Womb Realm. However, at least in Shingon theory, Vairocana inhabits the Diamond Realm (vajradhatu) and the Womb Realm is reserved for the Five Wisdom Kings. Could you clarify the source and the thinking? There are, of course, countless variants of these and I'm only (passingly) familiar with the Shingon style, but here are two references to more authoritative sources: Womb Diamond (note that Vairocana is Dainichi in Japanese) Jpatokal 11:38, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Karen_Kwiatkowski
Quite an impressive work you have done, congratulations ! Rama 14:29, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC) UPDATE: As an official confirmation of my comment above, the article is featured in DYK on 22th of December, 2004, unquestionably thanks to your excellent work. Tank you very much agin ! Rama 11:48, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nhat Hanh
See the talk page for why i'm putting it back.

Even if you can't sit still for the change for long, don't mess with it while i'm still working on it: you seem to have done a cut&paste move, which i'll have to sort out and repair.

Please click on Move this page, and carefully read the instructions there. Thanks --Jerzy(t) 02:05, 2004 Dec 19 (UTC)

Sorry, i see now the move was quite properly done! I dunno, i've never before seen a history be out of date after a move, and the real significance of your summary
 * moved from Nhat Hanh to Thich Nhat Hanh; see talk

escaped me until i could view the diffs. (Perhaps they moved that task to a lower priority to speed up Cat-assignment updates. Or maybe i did something so stupid in checking that i can't reconstruct it!)

I kinda merged your and my versions of the lead 'graph; if you come up with something more solid, perhaps it will deserve further adjustment. --Jerzy(t) 02:37, 2004 Dec 19 (UTC)

Honored by DYK
Thanks for adding my article on Julius Schreck to the Did you Know page. I am highly honored to have my work shown on the main page (I say my work, but its really Wiki's, but its kind of mine, but its not, because, you know) -Husnock 20 Dec 04

Agathokleia
Hi Nat, thanks for the comment. See you around. PHG 02:17, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

NanJing
I saw that you had a picture of Nanjing, China. I was wondering if you had any pictures of the Sun Yat-sen Musoleum and the Kuomintang era capital building. Thanks.

--Tlarson 06:32, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Re:Buddhism template
Thanks for posting me a note. Templates are usually added to articles that are listed (linked to) in the template itself. In this case, the article was not part of the general buddhism template. To mark this article as related to buddhism (as opposed to marking it a part of a series), i think we should use categories instead of templates. This is already done: it is part of Category:Buddhist temples which is a subcategory of Category:Buddhism. Even the template i removed would be better served in articles it links to using Template:buddhism2 (a footer) since it's a grp of related articles and not a chronology. --Jiang 23:40, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nhat Hanh
I've finished the big job of getting the talk page back to being almost coherant, and i have two requests for you:
 * The discussion is involved enough that it will profit from keeping the separable issues of the treatment of "Thich" and of whether either "Nhat" or "Hanh" should be used separately for subsequent references. Therefore i intend to respond to your Jan 10 contribs to the talk only after they are refactored between the Thich & Nhat sections. I would not mind (except in the sense i'll mention in the 2nd request) doing that refactoring, as i think the opportunity for you to do it your way is yours to give up if you choose to.  I like to think i could do a very fair job of it, and it's still worth doing even if you choose not be the one who does it.  My approach to refactoring is a wordy one, as i think you'll guess.  Another way to do it without presenting a false picture of the sequence & substance of the refactored material is to
 * strike thru the old version, using markup at the beginning of each 'graph, and at the end of each
 * label the struck thru material, probably at the beginning, as something like "Obviated by refactoring by its author"
 * Cut and paste, or rewrite (especially if it enhances fluency) based on just keeping the points you wanted to make in mind
 * I hope you will give sincere consideration to rereading the relevant sections of the talk page, and considering a complete rewrite (perhaps annotating the struck-thru as "refactored and revised") based on that fresh look, and on a more careful attention to logic and relevance. I say this not in order to be harsh, but to fair to you: i won't make a fool of myself later by sugar-coating my criticism of your current reasoning. I've not convinced myself that treating "Nhat Hanh" as an indivisible unit is as bad an idea as i was initially assuming.  But
 * your dismissal of my previous evidence re the status of "Thich" as if you had never read it,
 * your discussion of PoV-implying names as if i had even hinted that "Nhat Hanh" should be eliminated from the article,
 * your characterizing 68 words by your "[dis-]comfort" without indicating a single word that would contribute to your comfort by replacing some of them, and
 * frankly, your (however hip) "[not] dig[ging my] objection", when more informative words like "understand", "accept", or perhaps gradations between them, or forms of "digging" that vary in other directions, are presumably within your vocabulary. Why would throw out opportunities for confusion if you are serious enough about this for your view to be weighed?  (I suppose one answer for that is that i'm weirding you out, or shall i say, addressing you in a tone that raises tension for you.  My temperment is quite averse to conflict, so please say so if i'm creating difficulties for you; i'd rather help you be, well, comfortable, than not, as long as you're not mocking the value of what we're doing.)
 * I've started rereading my draft, and without my anticipating it, i find i've come full circle: i'm now reminded i said i'd give one reason i want you to do the refactor of your recent talk contrib, and that reason is that i don't want to "beat you up" in any more detail than the above for the deficiencies i perceived, and especially not on a page more widely read than this one.

If you think we should talk more than this about the dynamics between us, let's do that here (or even by e-mail if you'd rather; i don't check it regularly, so say you've written me on my talk page), even though we owe it to the article and the community to hash out the issues of the article on the article talk page rather than user-talk pages. Thanks, Jerzy(t) 01:58, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC) Thanks, Nat, i think we'll work this out on the talk, tho not tonite. --Jerzy(t) 06:48, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)

psych
Hope I am posting this in the right place (I am still a bit new here). I thought today about your edit on the Buddhism page and came to the conclusion that unless you want to include all sciences as a subset of philosophy (a defensible but esoteric concept) you need to make that distinction more clearly for this topic. Without venturing into the slippery terrain of defining philosophy (beyond its etymological import) we need to make a clear distinction between Buddhism and purely faith-based religions. Though there clearly is a devotional aspect to Buddhism, and for many people only that, its essence lies in it being a road map to the mind or, in modern terms, a psychology, ie. a science, a logos which may lead to sophia, but that is a different matter. Not that the article may not cover that elsewhere, I just think it is a fundamental enough distinction to merit appearing in the first few words of the article. Up to you. Haiduc 22:28, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Karmapa and captials
Dear Nat, thanks for the helpful edits on Karmapa. However not that my use of captitals was based on Wikipedia manual of style. While the "1st Karmapa, Düsum Khyenpa" is capitalized as the title of the person like "President Carter", "Düsum Khyenpa was the first karmapa" is not. Do titles like president and prime minister fall in to the same category as karmapa? I thought so although there are clearly differences, eg lots of presidents and prime ministers, but only one karmapa at a time (well usually!). Please reply here. Billlion 19:12, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, yes, that's a tough question of English style. It seems to me that it would be weird to see "dalai lama" or "panchen lama", so by extension, "karmapa" is also probably incorrect. I'm not sure exactly why this is different from "president" and "prime minister": might be the uniqueness factor that you mention. I wonder ... you usually talk about about "the Pope", but, supposing there were going to meeting between the Pope of Rome and Orthodox Pope of Alexandria, would it be proper to write "the two Popes" or the "the two popes"? -Nat Krause 00:15, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to leave it your way. I thought it looked a bit strange when I wrote it but I was trying to follow the style guidelines. Billlion 19:09, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nice job on Buddhism in America
Very well done job on Buddhism in America. I might have called it Buddhism in the US, as I think Columbians and Argentines consider themselves to be Americans. But generally, the article is a tour de force. Thanks. --Munge 09:55, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Really nice article. Wikipedia at its best. Thank you. Please note that there is a long-standing and heated dispute on Wikipedia whether the use of "America" to denote "USA" is appropriate. Some users feel that this is US jingoism, others that the US people have a right to define what they want to call themselves. If I may make a suggestion, it would probably create less trouble to say US if you mean US. Kosebamse 19:07, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * (moving my comments from here to Talk:Buddhism in America. - Nat Krause 19:54, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Nat Krause/Archive3


text: User talk:60.26.34.33

title: User talk:60.26.34.33


text:
Template talk:Universities in New Brunswick

Public vs private
There seems to be some misperceptions on Wikipedia about how Atlantic universities are funded and how some institutions are designated as "public", while others are considered to be "private".

Currently, UNB (F'ton/SJ), STU, MTA and UdM are public universities in NB.

STU receives public funding - it has been in the public fold since it was moved in 1964 ("encouraged" by Robichaud's government to consolidate university campuses in the province which received provincial funds)... ABU and SSU (I just found out about this latter one a few months ago) appear to NOT receive any government funding (or very minimal, compared to the previously-mentioned institutions) and would therefore be private. There may also be registration limitations with these institutions emphasis vs. secular for the others.

In NS, PEI and NL, all universities in these provinces receive approx. 1/3 gov't funding and are considered public.

Now if the distinction were to be made between "state" (or "provincial") universities, vs. "the rest", then only UNB, UPEI and MUN are truly provincial institutions in Atlantic Canada.

Just to emphasize my point, this is an article that was published recently in the Telegraph Journal, emphasis on public funding and government control of these institutions is added by me Plasma East:

The New Brunswick Telegraph Journal News, Saturday, January 22, 2005, p. A1/A6 Provincial News

Under the microscope Province's pending review of N.B. universities spurs talk of big changes

SARAH MCGINNIS Special Report

If you believe some of the rumours gaining momentum in New Brunswick university circles, choosing a university in this province could become a lot easier in the future. One notion causing university buzz is that students will soon have a core choice to make before attending such a New Brunswick school, whether to attend the French or English one.

In their 2003 election platform, Bernard Lord's Progressive Conservatives promised to launch a Commission on the Future of New Brunswick's Universities, and indicated that restructuring and consolidation of university services could result from it. The province last saw such changes in the 1960s.

Little has been done on the proposed commission, but its promised approach is causing a lot of anxiety on New Brunswick university campuses. Perhaps the most robust rumour has it that Mount Allison University, St. Thomas University and the University of New Brunswick could be merged into one school, with each campus offering standardized courses, programs and education requirements.

If such a change took place, UNBSJ would probably act as a model for combining other schools, the rumor goes. But those engaging in such talk - who are loath to go on the record about it - suggest consolidation could also mean changes to some of the flagship programs at each campus. For instance, the Masters of Business Administration is not an accredited program at either Saint John or Fredericton. Combining universities could mean standardizing programs such as that one.

This standardizing of programs has already been suggested on a wider scale. In a 2001 report to Atlantic premiers, consultant Charles McMillan recommended that an Atlantic School of Management be created, linking the region's best business-related programs via the Internet to create one umbrella school. He suggested interdependence would cut administrative costs while creating a school that could rank among the best in Canada.

These are some of the many reform theories floating around post secondary institutions as the government prepares to launch its commission.

Back on the campaign trail, the Tories said the commission's mandate would be to "study and make fundamental recommendations on how each of our universities can grow and become stronger national and international institutions over the long-term."

The Conservatives also pledged they would make universities appear annually before a select committee on education to answer questions on how government funds were spent. That vow, too, has yet to be fulfilled.

Little has been said about these policies since the election, but many educators wonder if the universities commission will move to the forefront now that the provincial Commission on Legislative Democracy wrapped up.

Education department spokesman Jason Humphrey said work is underway on the projects but offered few details of what has been accomplished. How the commission and the select committee would operate is still being worked out, he said.

There is no time frame on when the groups will be formed, or when proposals will be made before government. But, they are being considered for inclusion into the Quality Learning Agenda this year, Mr. Humphrey said.

The proposed commission, however, is already causing concern. Many university officials are bracing for consolidation of programs, merging of schools or recommendations to take such steps.

UNBSJ vice-president Kathryn Hamer unveiled a 15-year plan for the school's expansion Thursday. The vision would see new residences, new academic buildings and additional student services. The development would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to complete, but it could be in jeopardy if the commission on universities takes the Saint John campus in a different direction.

Ms. Hamer has heard the rumours surrounding the commission, but she's not ready to give up on her vision for UNBSJ. If the English universities were merged, UNBSJ could be a model for how to operate a satellite campus, she said.

"There are always issues as soon as you are operating a multi-unit university, but...It's not impossible," she said. "Distances are not that great in this province and we have all kinds of communication forms we didn't have 25 to 30 years ago. I wouldn't see it as a disaster come to strike us. We're already living that reality."

As for recommendations to standardize programs, the results may not make as much sense as such a plan does on paper, Ms. Hamer said.

"Governments often want to reduce what they see as expenses by offering one of whatever. It's not always the best solution, it's not always the most economical solution either," Ms. Hamer said.

Possible government-imposed changes worry St. Thomas University president Daniel O'Brien. The last time universities were restructured the Université de Moncton was created and STU was moved from the Miramichi to Fredericton. The decision was a "fairly traumatic upheaval" for the university, Mr. O'Brien said. This time, the commission might recommend that STU and the University of New Brunswick, located next door, merge, he said.

Some have argued that Fredericton does not need two universities offering an arts education, but not all programs are the same and students deserve the right to choose what is best for them, Mr. O'Brien said.

"There's duplication in the commercial world. Not everyone buys the same product. Some people prefer one product over another, which for all intents and purposes looks similar on the surface, but when you bore down into it (it) makes subtle differences to the consumer," he said.

Despite these concerns, the university is not opposed to the commission, just cautious as to what the mandate might be and what it might explore, Mr. O'Brien said.

A review of New Brunswick universities will find that they are already fairly specialized, each focusing on its own unique programs, said UNB student union president Greg LeBlanc. There are only so many students schools can market themselves to, and various universities already co-operate to ensure that there isn't over duplication, he said.

"They know they have to offer good programs, and if Mount Allison has a stronger fine arts department than UNB, then instead of having to spend even more money recreating it, (UNB would) spend their money in another program," Mr. LeBlanc said.

Universities could benefit from government looking at the big picture, said UNB president John McLaughlin.

"It's time to have a new look at higher education in this province," said Mr. McLaughlin. "The last time it was seriously reviewed was back in the 1960s and we were all in the expansion mode. Forty years later, a lot of things have changed, and it's time to take another look."

Liberal Leader Shawn Graham said the commission should examine Maritime universities as a whole as well as those within New Brunswick.

"If we are going to start positioning our universities so we are able to compete internationally, we also have to take into context what our Maritime counterparts are doing as well," he said.

At present Maritime universities fight each other for government grants and research money, he said. In the 1970s, the Maritime provinces co-operated on post-secondary education, agreeing that Prince Edward Island should establish the region's only veterinary program, that New Brunswick should offer forestry and that Nova Scotia should run the medical school. It's time to revisit these agreements, and foster similar co-operation, Mr. Graham said.

There's a fine line between reviewing the structure of universities to ensure the system is working and dictating to institutions how they should run their schools, and it is the proposed commission's potential to do the latter that concerns Mount Allison University president Kenneth Ozmon.

"I think we should be prepared to answer questions that are posed to us by those who are the guardians of the money and the public interest on education expenditures," Mr. Ozmon said.

"I would have some concerns if there were questions of why you have people taking these courses rather than these, or why did you hire this person, or why don't you admit people like this rather than the ones you're admitting," he said.

Universities have always been autonomous, and maintaining that distance from government is key, Mr. Ozmon said.

The province should become active in how universities operate since it contributes between one-third to one-half of all operating funds, said Kelvin Ogilvie, who is researching university governance issues for the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies, a Halifax-based think tank.

As the former president of Acadia University, in Wolfville, N.S., Mr. Ogilvie argued to maintain the independence of that institution in the past, but said his arguments felt hollow. If a government contributes millions of dollars a year, or in most cases more than 30 per cent of a university's annual operating budget, it's its right to have a say in how that money is spent.

New Brunswick isn't the first government to look at restructuring universities. In the 1990s Nova Scotia engaged in a similar exercise. It resulted in some schools merging, and programs at others ending. In Ontario, former premier Bob Rae is reviewing that province's post-secondary institutions and his report is expected to propose massive changes. Other provinces are expected to follow suit.

Liberal education critic Kelly Lamrock said the government should better examine why so many New Brunswick youth aren't going to university, and look for ways to reduce student debt loads, rather than dictating to schools how they should spend their money.

He said he would be thrilled if the province addressed what he sees as a looming crisis in post-secondary education - but instead thinks it will be a navel gazing exercise where the province will focus on strategic plans and mission statements instead of making needed changes.

"I think the reason the government has been reluctant to get on with the real issues is because they involved fundamentally changing how we fund universities and the investments we make," Mr. Lamrock said.

Students know full well the importance of securing adequate funding for universities. In recent years they have watched tuition rise as schools claim they don't get enough money from the province.

"There should be more accessibility for students in New Brunswick...New Brunswick is the province with the highest of student debt loads," said STU student union president Shawn Stevenson.

If the government began merging programs, forcing students to travel farther to receive their education, then the costs would rise dramatically. Many young people feel they can't afford to attend university now. Asking them to move elsewhere for school could make a post-secondary education even less accessible, he said.

But, Mr. Ogilvie said merging universities or centralizing programs could actually benefit students. For a university program to succeed there must be a critical mass of qualified teachers, he said. By providing the same type of program at various locations, New Brunswick's academics are spread out and that critical mass is hindered. If the programs were consolidated, they could compete better on a national level.

"The idea of lack of mobility on the part of students is greatly exaggerated," said Mr. Ogilvie. "One of the great advantages to a university education is getting away from the home community and gaining new experiences."

If the program is well run and offers students the education they are looking for, then young people will move to attend it.

The distinction
The distinction is who appoints their Board of Governors? In Canada, public Universities have their Boards of Governors (or equiv) appointed by the provincial government. --Spinboy 05:18, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * It depends how narrow the interpretation of public vs. private is. Would a secular, open/publicly run instition which receives 1/3 of its funding from gov't, despite having a board of governors independent from gov't, be public or private?  If the definition states such an instition would be private, then only UNB, UPEI, MUN, and possibly UdM and UCCB would be public institutions in Atlantic Canada, as their boards were all "initially" appointed by gov't and gov't might still have a seat at the table, although I doubt it.  If the Ontario or American model were applied to this region, then these schools would be similar in their administration/funding etc. to Carleton, Waterloo, Guelph, Lakehead, Maine, SUNY, Michigan State, and so on.

 * Regardless of provincial vs. non-provincial, all universities and their boards (or equivalent) in Atlantic Canada are empowered by acts of the respective provincial legislatures. In the case where a school used to be run by a church and is now secularized, control would have been transferred from that church to the board.  If gov't established the school and appointed the initial boards (assuming they don't have a seat at the table), then control of the institution is automatically vested with that board.  Regardless of the difference, subsequent members are generally "nominated" to the boards and then approved by the boards - everything is a closed process.

 * So where only UNB, UPEI, MUN, and possibly UdM and UCCB can be considered "provincial" or "state" universities, all other institutions (ie. Dal, Acadia, SMU, MSVU, STFX, NSCAD, USteA, MTA, STU, etc., except Atlantic Baptist & St. Stephen's, are secular public universities which are run by independent boards of governors who administer the universities, but gov't is not directly involved in their operation. A similar case might be seen with Queen's in Ontario, or McGill in Quebec, or an Ivy League in the states, I suppose.  They are all open to admission from any member of the public, no criteria based on religious affiliation etc.  Although gov't isn't even that involved in the governance of the provincial institutions, where gov't has flexed its muscles in the past can be seen in the Telegraph-Journal article whereby if gov't provides funding, they have mandated campus consolidations and/or removal of program duplications etc. in all provinces, regardless of the type of institution, so in my opinion they are all similar.

 * The history of post-secondary education in this region is very much tied to the churches. In fact the only institution which I can think of from pre-20th century which was not religiously affiliated to some extent was Prince of Wales College.  STU, MSVU, SMU, STFX, USteAnne and SDU (now part of UPEI) all had their start as Catholic instutions and are now secularized/public.  UdM's founding colleges were all Catholic at the time of consolidation in the early 60's into UdM.  Dal had its start as a Presbyterian insitution, I believe.  King's in NS was Anglican, King's in NB (now part of UNB) was Anglican as well - although the Church of England was tightly tied to gov'ts in those colonies early on.  Mt.A was Methodist/Wesleyan, UCCB had its start as an extension of STFX but it was merged by gov't with NSEIT in the 60s.  Even the two schools in Atlantic Can. which are still tied to churches with their theology programs - Atlantic Baptist Conv. theology school at Acadia, Catholic/United Church/Presbyterian/Anglican at Atlantic School of Theology, are publicly funded so these instituions are included with Dal, MtA, etc.

 * Secularization was at its peak in this region's universities during the 50's-60's I'd say (late 80's in the case of MSVU). If I recall correctly, Dal was likely one of the earliest to secularize, either in the late 1800s or early 1900s).  Once the respective provincial legislation was enacted and control of these universities were transferred from their respective churches to independent boards of governors, typically the board was initially comprised of members from that church (usually the founding church was given several seats at the table).  This gradually migrated over the years as the churches lost interest in participating, to the point where their seats are largely symbolic these days.  Only 2 (that I know of) institutions established in recent decades, in response to securalization, can be considered truly private - those being Atlantic Baptist and St. Stephen's (although I don't know very much about the latter)...  Plasma east 03:25, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * If it's religious, it's obviously not public. No matter where the funding comes from. --Spinboy 03:28, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * If you apply that logic, then all of Nova Scotia's universities, except for NSAC and possibly UCCB, are private. I have degrees from Dal, Mt.A and UNB and they're as public as any other institution in Canada.  Like I said, ABU and St. Stephen's are the only truly private universities in this region.Plasma east 04:05, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Their own website talks about Christian education. It's a religious university, and thus, private. If it were secular, then it would be more questionable. --Spinboy 04:10, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Have you attended STU? I haven't, and have no affiliation with it, although I work at UNB, 5 min. down the hill from their north gate - trust me, it's public.  It has the same history behind its evolution as other Catholic schools in the region which have never completely 100% secularized, just the same as Mt.A, Acadia, and Dal haven't.  I know of priests/nuns teaching at MSVU, SMU, STFX (very very Catholic in their heritage), UPEI (dating from its SDU heritage), Ste-Anne, UdM, etc.  STU has a "religious studies" program, and a chapel with a chaplain on campus (as most Maritime universities do) and wears its heritage proudly, but it's still secular.Plasma east 04:20, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * We provide an atmosphere hospitable to faith, where students may pursue the academic study of the Roman Catholic tradition and the experience of Christian life. --Spinboy 04:48, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, if you apply the litmus test you suggest for public/private then it'll be private I guess. I'll let the STU folks argue the merits of the designation.Plasma east 06:03, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * As a New Brunswicker and a graduate of nearby UNBF, I can assure you that STU is a public univeristy. It's President and board are appointed by the province and it receives funding in the same fashion as UNB, UdeM and MtA.  Yes it has a Catholic chapel and some of its philosophy and religious study profs are Catholic clergy but the same is true for UdeM.  UNB has an Anglican chapel.  This is a public school.  - Jord 17:14, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * AND if you didn't want to take my word for it, here it is in black and white: . - Jord 17:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you for that. --Spinboy 18:59, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Bethany Bible College
Spinboy, please see my link above, according to the New Brunswick Department of Education, Bethany Bible College is chartered as a private university. - Jord 18:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * The words Bible College indicate seminary, no matter what that site says. --Spinboy 18:59, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Does it not occur to you that it could have started as a seminary and later became a university but kept its name? At the end of the day, it has been granted a university charter by the jurisdiction with authority to do so.  That indicates that it is a university, no matter what its name is. - Jord 19:03, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * In fact, according to the history page of its site it started in 1945 and was recognized as a degree granting institution in 1983. - Jord 19:06, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * It's own website admit's it is a seminary. Degree granting or not, it's a seminary. In the accomplishment of the Mission of the College, the specific goal of Bethany Bible College is to prepare pastors, church planters, missionaries, youth pastors, Christian education directors, ministers of music, teachers for Christian schools, and general Christian service workers. --Spinboy 19:07, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Its website also says In 1983, the Province of New Brunswick, through official legislation, authorized Bethany to grant church-related degrees. The province of NB also has the Degree Granting Act under which it can bestow the authority to grant degrees on institutions that it does not recognize as universities.  It does recocnize Bethany as a university.  This seems simple to me.  - Jord 19:31, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think what we have here is a disagreement on what constitutes a "university" by definition. To me, the designation "university" is bestowed by a political jurisdiction. That is the case for Bethany.

According to dictionary.com a "university" is:

 * An institution for higher learning with teaching and research facilities constituting a graduate school and professional schools that award master's degrees and doctorates and an undergraduate division that awards bachelor's degrees

If we follow that definition, Bethany does not qualify. However, under that definition, STU and Mt. A. don't either because they don't have graduate programs.

 * - Jord 19:15, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Further, Wiktionary defines "university" as an Institution of higher education (typically accepting students from the age of about 17 or 18, depending on country, but in some cases able to take younger students in exceptional cases) where subjects are studied and researched in depth and degrees are offered. Again, how does Bethany not meet this criteria? - Jord 19:37, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm not saying it doesn't, they obviously grant undergraduate degrees, as do ALL bible colleges/seminaries. I'm saying it's a seminary because they cater by their own admission to Christian education/pastors. --Spinboy 19:40, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I am sure there are other "seminaries" in New Brunswick but the distinction is that the province classifies this one as a "university". That makes the difference. - Jord 19:51, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, what is the difference, other than their names, between St. Stephen's & Atlantic Baptist and Bethany? You seem to concede that SSU and ABU are private universities but not BBC.  Yet BBC is recognized as such by the province in exactly the same fashion as SSU & ABU. - Jord 19:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * That's a good question. Maybe they are seminaries too. But clearly from BBC's website, their job is to train new pastors, and thus, they are seminaries. --Spinboy 20:12, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * That is their main job but they offer a Bachelor of Arts degree in Christian Education (non-ordination). So they do grant degrees that don't lead to the ministry.  Could a school not be both a seminary and a university?  Like it or not, according to the law of the land, BBC is a university.  I am not arguing that it isn't a seminary, however it is a university. - Jord 21:19, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * It's a college/seminary that offers degrees. --Spinboy 21:24, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * According the the New Brunswick Department of Education, which has far more authority than you or I, says it is a Private Chartered University. That should be the end of this discussion!! - Jord 21:35, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * You already gave us the definition of university, and it doesn't fit that either. --Spinboy 21:42, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * It meets the Wiktoinary definition and, as I pointed out, neither Mt.A nor STU meet the dictionary.com definition but they clearly are universities. By the dictionary.com definition, BBC is just as much a university as MTA and STU.

User:Plasma east suggested in Template talk:Can-sem that perhaps a new template needs to be created for private religious institutions/universities since many seminaries are offering undergrad degrees. --Spinboy 07:40, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I'll try to keep my comments brief as the discussion on the template mentioned above outlines my concerns about the use of the word "seminary" - this should be used judiciously and only for institutions providing degrees for ordained clergy AND it should only be for institutions accredited by the Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada, in addition to their respective provincial accreditation authorities. As such, there are no seminaries (ie. institutions offering theological studies) in New Brunswick.  The only 2 institutions offering such an education in Atlantic Canada are at Acadia and AST.  The religious-oriented degree-granting institutions in New Brunswick are classed as universities by the provincial gov't, but are not "seminaries" as they do not provide a theological education, nor are they accredited by ATSUSC and they are likewise not accredited by the Maritime Provinces Higher Education Commission.Plasma east 08:02, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I should note that previously the seminary template had been called Bible Colleges, but someone (I think Darkcore) changed it. --Spinboy 17:11, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * And related to the discussion about Bethany, which now offers university degrees - a pastor is not the same as an ordained minister.Plasma east 08:09, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * No, an ordained minister comes after a few years of working as a pastor. --Spinboy 17:11, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Since we are on the subject of accreditation, AST is a publicly funded chartered university in the province of Nova Scotia and it is accredited by the MPHEC and the ATSUSC, therefore it should be included in the NS_Uni template at the same level as the other institutions (ie. public). On the subject of Bethany Bible College, it is recognized by the province as a degre-granting university under its charter, therefore it should be classed as such in this template, albeit under private, since it is obviously not included in the MPHEC accreditation.Plasma east 08:02, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * And if people are not aware about the MPHEC, here is its blurb taken from the "stakeholders" section of their website:

 * As an agency of the Council of Maritime Premiers the Commission serves a number of stakeholders from across the region, including 16 publicly funded institutions offering university degree programmes, two specialized applied arts and technology post-secondary institutions, the Ministers responsible for Post-Secondary Education in the Maritimes, and the public-at-large (includes students).Plasma east 08:02, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Consensus?
So do we have an agreement that:

 * Public Universities = Moncton, Mt. Alison, UNB & STU
 * Private Universities = ABU, BBC, SSU

??? - Jord 15:32, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't agreee to that. --Spinboy 17:07, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I should also note that Wikipedia isn't an exercise in democracy. So far 2 people want it one way, and I want it another. Thus there is no consensus. --Spinboy 17:13, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I would agree with Jord. It's not up to us to decide what is and isn't a university, it's up to the respective provincial governments with respect to what is and isn't a private university (ie. no public funding & therefore no gov't say in its operation), and the Maritimes' public university accreditation authority as to what is and isn't a public university (ie. public funding & therefore gov't has a say in its operation).  I'd say it's pretty simple and that NB gov't website that was noted in the thread earlier should stand as the authority on the question of Bethany since nobody among us is qualified to do so.Plasma east 17:34, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * To me it's a bible college clear and simple and doesn't belong under the university header. --Spinboy 05:02, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I really don't understand your argument here Spinboy. The province has the authority to recognize instituions as universities.  Therefore, those which they recognize as such are that.  I am going to put up an RFC notice for this page over on the notice board. - Jord 17:46, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm confused by the logic being used here as well. To me it doesn't matter one iota if a university degree-granting institution in a province is, or isn't, religiously affiliated.  If the said province gives it a university degree-granting charter, then it's a university.  Whether or not it's privately or publicly funded is another matter.  There are issues with 3 institutions on the NB_Uni template, and 1 institution on the NS_Uni template.

 * The Maritime Provinces Higher Education Commission (our accreditation authority) recognizes the Atlantic School of Theology in Halifax as a publicly funded university, therefore it should be placed on the NS_Uni template. While the MPHEC doesn't recognize them as publicly funded insitutions, the New Brunswick government has recognized 3 religious institutions as being private universities: St. Stephen's University in St. Stephen, Atlantic Baptist University in Moncton, and Bethany Bible College in Sussex.  Although there isn't a need for a template for Prince Edward Island since there is only one public university, that province has also granted a privately funded religious institution a degree-granting charter - the Maritime Christian College.

 * I'd say that these private institutions with degree-granting charters are unique in that they are starting down the very road that many of the public universities in the Maritimes began. Mt.A, UPEI, UNB, UdM, Kings, Acadia, St.FX, SMU, St.Anne, MSVU and UCCB all had their start with religious institutions and have since received public funding and become secularized.  If the same logic that pervades in this discussion were applied to these other institutions even 30-40 years ago, I doubt many would make it to the template at all, despite the fact that they received their degree granting charters decades before.  I think the problem is an ignorance of the shared history and traditions that are present between religion and post-secondary education in the Maritime region and we're trying to force a square peg into a round hole.Plasma east 03:50, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Lansbridge University and Yorkville University
Private Universities Lansbridge University (for profit, business/technology) and Yorkville University, both offer online education programs. Yorkville University was established in 2003 in Fredericton, New Brunswick. The University is private and non-denominational, specializing in practice oriented graduate level academic programs. In March, 2004, the Department of Education of the Province of New Brunswick granted Designation status, recognizing Yorkville University as a University, and a degree granting institution authorized to offer the Master of Arts degree in Counselling Psychology.

 * I would list these under "private universities" like was done for Trinity Western University and Sea to Sky University in B.C., only if articles are created for them. --Spinboy 19:31, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)


text:
Robert Bauman

Robert E. Bauman (born April 4, 1937) is an American lawyer and politician. He is a former member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Maryland's 1st congressional district (1973–1981). Bauman was a prominent conservative advocate in the House, legal counsel for The Sovereign Society, and author of financial books.

Early life and career
Robert Edmund Bauman was born in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, to an unwed single mother. When a teenager, Bauman moved to Easton, Maryland, where he attended Easton High School until 1953. In 1955, he graduated from the Capitol Page School at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. He obtained a B.S. in international affairs from the School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University in 1959, and a J.D. degree from Georgetown University Law Center in 1964. He was admitted to the Maryland Bar in 1964, was later admitted to the District of Columbia bar, and entered into private practice as a lawyer.

Representative Bauman, politically known as "Bob Bauman," served as a delegate to the Republican National Conventions of 1964, 1972, 1976 and 1980. He was also a member of the Federal Hospital Council of the United States Department of Health, Education, and Welfare from 1970 to 1973. In 1970, he was elected to the Maryland Senate, where he served as a member from 1971 to 1973.

A Roman Catholic, he was married to Carol Dawson, a co-founder of Young Americans for Freedom, with whom he had four children.

United States Congress
Bauman was elected to the United States House of Representatives as a Republican in an August 1973 special election. He replaced William O. Mills, who had committed suicide the previous May.

Political positions
In Congress, Bauman established a reputation as a staunch conservative, often criticizing the state of morality in the United States. He was a founding member of several conservative activist groups, including the Young Americans for Freedom (YAF) and the American Conservative Union (ACU), and he served both as national chairman. Bauman was also known for his exceptional knowledge of parliamentary procedure and was considered a rising star in the Republican Party in the late 1970s.

Scandal
On October 3, 1980, while he was running for re-election, Bauman was charged for soliciting sex from a 16-year-old male prostitute.

After the charges were made public, Bauman said he was suffering from alcoholism and entered himself into a court-supervised rehabilitation program, which, upon successful completion, resulted in the charges being dropped. Bauman stated he would continue his re-election campaign, and apologized to voters for his indiscretions.

Bauman was defeated by Democrat Roy Dyson on November 4, 1980. Dyson was not considered a serious contender for the seat before the charges were filed against Bauman. In 1982, Bauman again ran for the nomination for the House seat he had lost, but withdrew from the race before primary election day.

Post-congressional activities
Bauman was co-founder and legal counsel for the Sovereign Society, a group dedicated to promoting offshore banking and investment, that funneled clients to the Panamanian law firm Mossack Fonseca to help them avoid paying taxes to the United States government. "Our [the Sovereign Society] philosophy is not promoted by tax evasion but tax avoidance," Bauman said in an interview. "We serve as a conduit for people who want certain things offshore."

Bauman is the author of numerous books on offshore and tax haven issues. He also wrote an autobiography, The Gentleman from Maryland: The Conscience of a Gay Conservative, which was published in 1986.

title: Robert Bauman


text:
Diary of a Mad Black Woman

Diary of a Mad Black Woman is a 2005 American romantic comedy drama film directed by Darren Grant and written by Tyler Perry. Inspired by the play of the same name, it marks Perry's feature film debut and is the first entry in the Madea film franchise. Starring Perry alongside Kimberly Elise, Steve Harris, Shemar Moore, and Cicely Tyson, it tells the story of a woman who is thrown out of her house by her husband on their 18th wedding anniversary and subsequently moves in with her grandmother, and is the only film written, but not directed, by Perry.

Filmed in Atlanta and Fairburn, Georgia, and released theatrically by Lionsgate Films on February 25, 2005, the film grossed $50.6 million in North America. The sequel, Madea's Family Reunion, was released on February 24, 2006.

Plot
Helen Simmons-McCarter and her attorney husband Charles are successful and wealthy. However, Charles is distant, abusive, and has been having affairs, while Helen is unemployed, bored at home, and desperately trying to make her marriage work. On the evening of their eighteenth wedding anniversary, Helen arrives home to find all her belongings in a U-Haul and that Charles is divorcing her and planning to marry Brenda, his young mistress and the mother of his two sons.

Helen kicks the driver Orlando out of the truck and visits her paternal grandmother Madea. Upsetting her brother Joe, Madea takes Helen in and helps her get back on her feet. Joe's attorney son Brian defends Madea and Helen after Charles and Brenda catch the pair breaking into and vandalizing the marital home. Judge Mablean Ephriam places Madea, a repeat offender, under house arrest and sets a $5,000 property or cash bond for Helen.

Brian kicks his addict wife Debrah out of their home, causing him to have a strained relationship with their daughter Tiffany, who wants to join the church choir. Fearing that Tiffany will turn to drugs like her mother, Brian refuses until Madea convinces him otherwise, encouraging him to also fix his relationship with Debrah. Meanwhile, career criminal Jamison Milton Jackson asks Charles to defend him in his trial for shooting an undercover cop during a drug deal. He gives Charles $300,000 for both attorney's fee and to bribe the judge to rule in his favor, revealing that Charles received most of his money through drug deals and buying off judges.

In divorce court, Helen lets Charles keep all the money and property, provided he pay Brian's attorney fees and continue paying for her mother Myrtle Jean's stay in a nursing home since he made her place her there; Charles agrees to both terms. In the shooting case, despite Charles' efforts, the jury convicts Jamison. While being led out of the courtroom, Jamison snatches the bailiff's gun and shoots Charles in the back for failing to get him acquitted.

Orlando proposes to Helen, but before she can respond, she sees the shooting on the news and goes to the hospital with Brian, where they encounter Brenda upon arriving. The doctor explains the possibility of Charles being permanently paralyzed from the waist down and asks if he should be resuscitated if his health deteriorates. Brenda chooses to let Charles die, feeling that if he survives but cannot walk, he will spend the rest of his life using a wheelchair. However, Helen, still Charles's legal wife, tells the doctor to do everything possible for him to ensure his survival.

Charles is discharged from the hospital, returns home with Helen, and resumes verbally abusing her, but Helen takes the opportunity to retaliate for years of neglect and abuse. She physically assaults him and discloses that Brenda revealed her true colors by opting to let Charles die, emptying his bank account and leaving with their sons during his hospitalization. She additionally reveals that their housekeeper Christina also left, as Brenda left no money to pay her, and that all of Charles's friends, associates, and connections have abandoned him now that he has been left crippled and penniless.

Helen and Orlando argue about her moving back in with Charles to look after him, and he leaves heartbroken. Charles realizes the error of his past treatment towards Helen and apologizes to her, realizing that she was the only person who truly cared about him. She assists in his recovery, and one Sunday at church, he regains his ability to walk, while Debrah, now clean and sober following treatment, reconciles with Brian. Charles seeks to begin his relationship anew with Helen, but during a family dinner with Madea, she gives him her wedding ring and signed divorce papers and says they will always be friends, ending their relationship on amicable terms. She ventures to Orlando's workplace, reaffirms that she loves him, requests that he propose again, and accepts when he does.

Cast

 * Kimberly Elise as Helen Simmons-McCarter, a woman who is the soon-to-be ex-wife of Charles.
 * Steve Harris as Charles McCarter, a successful lawyer.
 * Shemar Moore as Orlando, a moving truck driver.
 * Tamara Taylor as Debrah, Brian's drug-addicted wife.
 * Cicely Tyson as Myrtle Simmons, Helen's mother.
 * Tyler Perry as:
 * Mabel "Madea" Simmons, a tough old lady and Helen's paternal grandmother
 * Joe Simmons, Madea's brother.
 * Brian Simmons, a lawyer who is Madea's nephew and Joe's son.
 * Lisa Marcos as Brenda Marcos, Charles' mistress.
 * Tiffany Evans as Tiffany, Brian's daughter.
 * Avery Knight as BJ, Brian's son
 * Gary Anthony Sturgis as Jamison Milton Jackson, a career criminal.
 * Chandra Currelley as herself
 * Judge Mablean Ephriam as herself
 * Tamela Mann as Cora Simmons, a choir member at the church Helen attends who is revealed to be Madea's daughter in other works.

Soundtrack
The soundtrack was released by Motown Records on April 19, 2005.

Release
The film was released on DVD and VHS June 28, 2005 by Lions Gate Home Entertainment.

Box office
On its opening weekend, the film arrived at number 1 on the box office rankings, with takings of $21.9 million. The film grossed an estimated $50.6 million in the United States and Canada, with an additional $19,000 internationally, for an estimated worldwide total of $50.7 million.

Critical response
Diary of a Mad Black Woman was mostly panned by professional film critics. Rotten Tomatoes gives the film a score of 16% based on 115 reviews, with an average rating of 4.0/10. The site's consensus reads "Tyler Perry's successful play can't make the move to the screen; this mix of slapstick, melodrama and spirituality lacks a consistent tone." Metacritic gives the film a weighted average score of 36% based on reviews from 30 critics, which the site considers "generally unfavorable reviews". Audience polled by CinemaScore gave the film a rare "A+" grade, on a scale from A-F.

Roger Ebert gave the film one out of four stars, arguing that the Madea character "is not remotely plausible [and] not merely wrong for the movie, but fatal to it." Ebert also wrote that Elise, Tyson and Harris offered effective performances and that "[t]here's a good movie buried beneath the bad one."

Sequel
A sequel to the film, Madea's Family Reunion, was released on February 24, 2006.

title: Diary of a Mad Black Woman


text:
User talk:WaterIce

Uhh Hullo!

40 % ?
Just so you know, the "i" before "e" except after "c" rule works for about 40% of the words in the english langauge. So, please, do not try to say that it is a rule. WaterIce 15:51, 08 November 2005 (PST)

 * Do you have any proof of this? Like a reputable source ? BTW, English is always capitalized. StuRat 00:14, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I found one that says it works for 82% of the words... Can't find the excact site that I found that listed many more than this one... But this is the only site I have as of now, I will do some more research on it and get back to you tomorow on the 40% that I read about... http://thepp.org/stuff/i_before_e_except_after_c.html WaterIce 16:38, 08 November 2005 (PST)

 * Ok, but 82% seems good enough to qualify as "a rule" to me. English, being an inexact collection of words from many languages, doesn't have too many rules that apply more than that.  For example, the "slap an S on the end to make a plural" rule has got to be less than 82% accurate. Still, if I encounter a new word, I would try to put an S on the end to make it plural. StuRat 00:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I've talked to my english professor, and she says that she recieved information that it works only 40% of the time. Aparently there is a million words in the english language, five hundred thousand normal words and five hundred thousand scientific words. So, the site I saw that had only one hundred eighty thousand words was completely off. I take my professor's word on this subject because it is what she teaches and most professors do not teach what isn't correct when it comes to the English langauge. WaterIce 11:48, 13 November 2005 (PST)

 * That is an appeal to authority argument that is sometimes called a logical fallacy. I would encourage you to be more skeptical about what you are told, even when by supposed experts.  Also, languages are an example of the long tail phenomenon, where a few words are used quite often and most of the words are rarely used.  Any discussion of English rules should therefore be heavily weighted towards the more common words, which sounds like the case in the 82% figure but not for the 40% figure.  Approximately 60,000 words are used in common conversation, so most of those million words are quite obscure, I'm sure. StuRat 06:40, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:WaterIce


text:
Talk:Copyright Act of 1976

Software?
I noticed that this does not mention that software can recieve copyright protection (not too hard to believe, as software was virtually unheard of in 1976). I know it can, so did a court case decide that one of the listed subject matters include copyright? Maybe some other reason?
 * The 1978 law was amended in 1980 to include computer software under the category of "literary works" (Title 17, Sect. 102) and permit certain modifications of computer software (Title 17, Sect. 117). --99.238.29.245 03:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Registration & deposit
The section "Registration & deposit" is a good summary of the R&D provisions of the 1976 Act. However, most of this article is about changes made by the 1976 Act, and the registration and deposit provisions are mostly unchanged between the 1909 Act and the 1976 Act. The only real differences touched on here are :
 * 1) Under the 1976 Act only registration is (ordinarily) required as a condition of bringing suit, whereas under the 1909 Act, both registration and deposit were required.
 * 2) Under the 1976 Act, if registration is refused, the copyright claimant is still able to bring suit, so long as the Copyright Office is given notice and allowed to join the suit; this option was not present under the 1909 Act.

The article suggests that the features of the 1976 Act listed here are those that are new to it. I propose to limit it to the differences, or at least make it more clear which features are actually different. Objections? -- TJRC (talk) 01:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Transfer of copyright
Thanks for providing the case citation. I do believe, however, that the mention of this case is rather misleading. First, Pushman applied to an unpublished work, covered by New York State common law, not the federal law. And second, the Pushman decision was overturned by statute in 1966. The 1909 federal copyright act clearly said the exact opposite in its section 27. Lupo 23:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * See also Foward v. Thorogood 985 F.2d 604. Lupo 23:35, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm about to go on vacation (no computer access for two weeks!), so I can't really check those links for the time being. What this section of the article seems to be addressing is the commentary on section 202 of the House Report.  See H.R. No. 94-1476 at page 124:
 * As a result of the interaction of this section and the provisions of section 204(a) and 301, the bill would change a common law doctrine exemplified by the decision in Pushman v. New York Graphic Society, Inc., 287 N.Y. 302, 39 N.E. 2d 249 (1942). Under that doctrine, authors or artists are generally presumed to transfer common law literary property rights when they sell their manuscript or work of art, unless those rights are specifically reserved. This presumption would be reversed under the bill, since a specific written conveyance of rights would be required in order for a sale of any material object to carry with it a transfer of copyright.

 * Pushman was such a minority view, and inherently dealing with unpublished works (and therefore, as you point out, with state copyright) that the present article (and the House Report) is giving it more attention than it deserved. It's only value in the article is to reflect the emphasis that the House Report gave it.  Given the NY statutory overruling, was this doctrine anywhere, even outside of NY, by the time the 1976 Act was enacted? TJRC (talk) 00:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Have a nice holiday, then! Here's a follow-up question all the same: you've sourced the case name to "Pushman v. New York Graphic Society, Inc., 287 N.Y. 302, 39 N.E. 2d 249 (1942)", but the summary of what that case said is still unsourced. If the summary is based on the case itself, this means you have access to the court order/opinion in that case: would you mind posting it (upload as PDF or whatever)? If not, what's the source for the case summary in our article? (My own comments above were based on some googling around. But I'd really like to know what this case was about precisely. Haven't been able to find the full court documents, though.) Lupo 08:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Termination of copyright transfers
It would be good to see something about the copyright transfer termination sections of this act. That's the right of an author (or their heirs) to essentially reclaim a copyright under certain circumstances, even if they've signed it away "in perpetuity". The Superman article alludes to the termination rights at 56 years for older works, and there are beginning to be news articles about the termination rights at 35 years for works published on or after Jan 1, 1978 (since they'll come due in 2013). --101.98.180.197 (talk) 10:23, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

 * I've been thinking of writing something up about that. Maybe next week. TJRC (talk) 15:17, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Infobox
I have removed the cleanup banner after changing the table to an infobox as requested in the banner. I looked at several other laws and at the infoobox instructions, and tried to make sure I correctly copied the information from the table. However, this is my first time using this infobox, so it would be really good if someone with more experience in this area could cross-check my work. I just figured after a year and a half, someone should attempt it.Don Lammers (talk) 21:37, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Internet radio?
(First time using Talk; apologies if I'm doing this all wrong). The sections on "Impact on Innovation" and "Impact on Internet Radio" seem out of place. "Impact on Innovation" can be justified, but this section needs fleshed out. "Impact on Internet Radio," seems especially superfluous, given that this is about the 1976 Act, when networked computing was still a novelty. I really want to nix both sections. Thoughts? --Denriguez (talk) 17:39, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I went ahead and made these changes, changing "Impact on Innovation" to a major heading titled "Criticism," and removing the "Impact on Internet Radio" section altogether. --Denriguez (talk) 16:31, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

 * Hi, you're correct that the 1976 act, as it was enacted, did not cover internet radio. However, the Act has been amended several times, and the Act, as amended, is within the scope of the article. Copyright in the US today, including as it applies to Internet radio, is covered by the Copyright Act as amended.

 * I wouldn't object to a section Subsequent amendments to make this clearer, where a number of short paragraphs on subsequent amendments, including the Digital Performance Right in Sound Recordings Act that added the Internet radio provisions, though. I think you make a good point that, as written, it seems to imply this was a provision that was part of the original 1976 enactment.

 * I might take a stab at it next week if you don't want to take a shot at it first. TJRC (talk) 23:30, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

 * Please, go right ahead. I know enough to know that it's awkward, not necessarily enough to know how best to fix it (aside from removing it until it's better). Thanks for your comments. Denriguez (talk) 20:18, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Copyright Act of 1976


text:
Talk:Mary Mack

Is there any evidence for the Mary Mack = Merrimack theory? Do the dates work? When is the song first attested? Or is this just another just-so story without any good evidence, like Ring Around the Rosie = Black Death? cf. http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm --Macrakis 05:19, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, the elephant wasn't a symbol of the Republican Party until 1874, so the reference to "elephants" being Republican makes it post-Civil war...if that's the story of the origin. It could be nonsense... Orville Eastland (talk) 21:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be surprising if children in the late 1800s came up with the name "Mary Mack" after learning in school about the Merrimack, but speculation should end there. Suggesting the silver buttons were rivets or it's a reference to a specific battle is just nonsense. --Tysto (talk) 13:56, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
 * why did mis marry Mac is so mad 2600:6C60:F0:4A50:2500:650E:A31:4EFE (talk) 21:12, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

How widespread is this ryhme in the english speaking world? I've never heard of it in the UK, so perhaps it's just a North American one. Any one else from outside North America come across it? The article should possibly be edited to say it's a US rhyme rather than english speaking. Pbagnall 13:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know it from school in England. Warofdreams talk 02:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

It was very popular in the 80's and 90's in Australia and New Zealand. I can still remember every lyric and clap I used.Spookywanluke (talk) 13:24, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Jesus?
The section about this rhyme having to do with Jesus is not only unsourced, but also highly unlikely. It's awkwardly phrased and presents Christian doctrine as if it is fact: "He, Jesus Christ, ascended to heaven." This article could do away with that segment altogether and be better for it.

This article is poor altogether. By the by, you don't have to have evidence of what the song states, you have to have evidence of song dates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.19.241 (talk) 10:57, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Other versions
Growing up in the Merrimack Valley region of Massachusetts and southern New Hampshire in the 1970s, children sang the following version:

Miss Mary Mack Mack Mack/ All Dressed in Black Black Black/ She can not read read read/ She can not write write write/ All she can do do do/ Is smoke a pipe pipe pipe

Cbmccarthy (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:09, 25 June 2011 (UTC).

 * it is a bpting song make mor to it 98.21.93.105 (talk) 21:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * boring son btw 98.21.93.105 (talk) 21:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Can someone explain what &, 4, &, 1, &, 2 mean in the Clap section?
I see this in the Clap section and have no idea what the &, 4, 1, and 2 mean. Can someone clarify this in the article? DBlomgren (talk) 20:06, 2 July 2014 (UTC) &: Arms across chest 4: Pat thighs &: Clap hands 1: Clap right palms with partner &: Clap left palms with partner 2: Clap both palms with partner

title: Talk:Mary Mack


text:
User:WaterIce

Hi... I started a page on The Broker, and Whitti edited it, because he is a pro and I am a noob... I made this account because I will probably post more and wanted to thank Whitti.

title: User:WaterIce


text:
Edison Award

The Edison Award is an annual Dutch music prize awarded for outstanding achievements in the music industry. It is comparable to the American Grammy Award. The Edison award itself is a bronze replica of a statuette of Thomas Edison, designed by the Dutch sculptor Pieter d'Hont. It is one of the oldest music awards in the world, first presented in 1960 at the inaugural Grand Gala du Disque.

Edisons
In 1960, the Committee for Collective Gramophone Campaigns organized the Edison awards for recordings in various categories. The first Edisons – named after the inventor of the phonograph, Thomas Edison – were awarded at the inaugural Grand Gala du Disque, a showcase for the awards featuring national and international performers. Coincidentally, Edison was of Dutch lineage. Each year, Edisons were awarded at two separate events, the Grand Gala du Disque Classique for classical music and the Grand Gala du Disque Populaire for popular music. There were two main categories: International artists and domestic (Dutch) artists, in various musical styles such as pop, vocal, jazz, instrumental, children and (in the early years) a separate award for French-language music. The winners were decided by judges.

The 1963 Grand Gala du Disque Populaire, which overran by almost two hours, saw Marlene Dietrich, Sarah Vaughan and Charles Aznavour accepting an Edison. In 1965, the winners included Esther Ofarim, Oliver Nelson, Louis van Dijke, the Beatles and Joan Baez. Pianist Vladimir Horowitz and composer-conductor Igor Stravinsky won awards at the Grand Gala du Disque Classique. The award itself has also gone through many changes. In the 1960s and early 1970s, it grew to a (then) record number of 24 categories in 1969. In later years, the number of awards was inconsistent and several categories did not last longer than a couple of years. From 1975 to 1976 no Edisons were awarded and in 1977 only Dutch artists were awarded a prize. In 1980, the Classical and Popular were jointly awarded. While the award lost much of its prestige in the 1980s due to lack of media coverage and interest from record companies – the number of categories continued to grow to a record number of 35 in 1991. The choices became more progressive, as several award winners were virtually unknown to the general public. In 1991, for instance, no awards were given to best-selling and critically lauded albums, but instead lesser known artists like The Riverdogs, Michael Lee Firkins, rapper Paris and instrumentalist Jean Marc Zelwer got the prizes.

By the end of the 1990s, the Edison experienced another overhaul, as the prize was split into the Edison Pop and Edison Jazz/World awards (there had always been a separate Edison Classical Award ceremony). It also began to focus more on Dutch artists and a number of new categories were introduced, such as best album, video, single and newcomer. Each year also featured one or two awards which were directly voted for by the television audiences.

Interest in the Edison has gone up in recent years, although no awards were given in 2006 and 2007. These days, the award is focused on Dutch product only, with several categories such as best male artist, female artist, newcomer, and theatre/vocal artist. There is also an annual lifetime achievement award for an artist with a distinguished career. The 2011 ceremony, held on 2 October and which featured eight categories, was not televised.

Award winners
From 1960 to 2011, over 750 Edison awards were handed out. The list of artists with most Edison wins is dominated by Dutch artists with relatively young careers. This is mainly because from the late 1990s, it has become much easier to win multiple awards in one year, which in the early days of the award was virtually impossible.
 * Marco Borsato – 13 wins, from 1995 to 2011, including a lifetime achievement award in 2011 and five wins in the Best male artist category.
 * Anouk – 9 wins, from 1998 to 2011, including three Edisons in her debut year (1998) and five awards in the Best female artist category.
 * Herman van Veen – 8 wins, from 1970 to 2010, including a lifetime achievement award in 2010, two awards in the children's category and four in the Best male vocal category.
 * BLØF – 7 wins, from 2000 to 2009, including five awards for Best group.
 * Ilse DeLange – 6 wins, from 1999 to 2011, including four times as Best female artist.

Most wins for international artists
 * Quincy Jones – 5 wins, from 1964 to 1979, in the jazz/instrumental and musical/film categories.
 * Elvis Costello – 4 wins, from 1978 to 1999.
 * Cliff Richard – 4 wins, from 1962 to 1998 (lifetime achievement award).
 * Barbra Streisand – 4 wins, from 1964 to 1992.

Miles Davis, Beach Boys, Charles Aznavour, Emmylou Harris, Eric Clapton, Bob James, Paul Simon, Phil Collins, Ry Cooder, Stevie Wonder, U2 and Robbie Williams all had three Edison wins each. (Miles Davis and the Beach Boys were awarded an additional fourth Edison in 1966, but these were later scrapped as the list of winners had been leaked to the press prematurely and no awards were given that year).

Edison Pop Oeuvreprijs

 * 1974 David Bowie
 * 1998 Boudewijn de Groot
 * 1998 Cliff Richard
 * 1999 Toto
 * 1999 Golden Earring
 * 2000 André Hazes
 * 2000 Status Quo
 * 2001 BZN
 * 2002 Simple Minds
 * 2002 Rob de Nijs
 * 2003 René Froger
 * 2003 Mark Knopfler
 * 2004 Frank Boeijen
 * 2004 George Michael
 * 2005 Phil Collins
 * 2005 De Dijk
 * 2006 Normaal
 * 2009 Krezip
 * 2010 Herman van Veen
 * 2010 Rowwen Hèze
 * 2011 Marco Borsato
 * 2012 Doe Maar
 * 2014 Youp van 't Hek
 * 2014 BLØF
 * 2016 Tiësto
 * 2017 Anouk
 * 2018 Extince
 * 2019 Ilse DeLange
 * 2020 Willeke Alberti

Edison Jazz/World Oeuvreprijs

 * 2006 Rita Reys
 * 2007 Randy Crawford & Joe Sample
 * 2008 Piet Noordijk
 * 2008 Al Jarreau
 * 2009 Dianne Reeves
 * 2010 Chaka Khan
 * 2011 Ivan Lins
 * 2012 Dee Dee Bridgewater
 * 2013 Marcus Miller
 * 2014 Kurt Elling
 * 2014 Greetje Kauffeld
 * 2015 Malando Orkest
 * 2015 Flairck
 * 2016 Metropole Orkest
 * 2017 Lee Towers
 * 2017 Joshua Redman
 * 2018 Patti Austin
 * 2018 Angélique Kidjo
 * 2019 Carel Kraayenhof
 * 2019 Eliane Elias
 * 2020 Eric Vloeimans
 * 2020 Louis van Dijk

Edison Classical Music Awards
The Edison Classical Music Awards (Edison Klassiek) are a collection of awards annually given to the best classical music recordings of the year. Awards are separately given in eleven categories. The award, part of the Edison Award, is issued from Amsterdam, the Netherlands.

Oeuvreprijs

 * 2003 Anne Sofie von Otter
 * 2004 Mstislav Rostropovich
 * 2005 Thomas Hampson
 * 2006 Jessye Norman
 * 2007 John Williams
 * 2008 Kiri Te Kanawa
 * 2009 Beaux Arts Trio
 * 2010 Pierre Boulez
 * 2011 Daniel Barenboim
 * 2012 Frans Brüggen
 * 2013 Reinbert de Leeuw
 * 2014 Netherlands Radio Philharmonic Orchestra
 * 2015 Itzhak Perlman
 * 2016 Bernard Haitink
 * 2017 Ton Koopman
 * 2018 Renée Fleming
 * 2019 Kronos Quartet
 * 2020 Roberta Alexander

2003

 * Oeuvreprijs (lifetime achievement award): Anne Sofie von Otter
 * Opera: Giuseppe Verdi Falstaff, Bryn Terfel, Thomas Hampson, Daniil Shtoda, and others, Berlin Philharmonic, conducted by Claudio Abbado
 * Baroque music: Jean-Baptiste Lully Les Divertissements de Versailles, Les Arts Florissants conducted by William Christie
 * Contemporary music: Luciano Berio Voci, Kim Kashkashian, Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra conducted by Dennis Russell Davies
 * Bijzondere Uitgaven van Historische Aard (special historical art): Joseph Haydn, Frédéric Chopin and others, Richter reDiscovered, Carnegie Hall recital Svjatoslav Richter BMG
 * Concerts: Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky and others, Violin Concertos Vadim Repin, Kirov Orchestra conducted by Valery Gergiev
 * Solo recitals: Johann Sebastian Bach and others, Maxim Vengerov plays Bach, Rodion Shchedrin, Eugène Ysaÿe
 * Chamber music: Ludwig van Beethoven Complete Violin Sonatas, Augustin Dumay, Maria João Pires
 * Choir music: Igor Stravinsky, Lili Boulanger, Symphony of Psalms and others; Monteverdi Choir, London Symphony Orchestra conducted by John Eliot Gardiner
 * Orchestral music: Mahler Symphony No. 5, Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle
 * Vocal (solo): Vincenzo Bellini, Rossini and others, Bel Canto Renée Fleming, Orchestra of St. Luke's conducted by P. Summers
 * Middle Ages and Renaissance (early music): Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck The Complete keyboard works, Muziek Groep Nederland/Radio Wereldomroep Nederland
 * Edison Nescafé Public award: Carel Kraayenhof, Tango Royal

2016

 * Oeuvreprijs: Bernard Haitink
 * Opera: René Jacobs, Mozart's Die Entführung aus dem Serail
 * Instrumental soloist: Daniil Trifonov (Rachmaninov – Variations) – Universal Music, DG
 * Vocal soloist: Sabine Devieilhe (Mozart – The Weber Sisters) – Warner Classics, Erato
 * Debut: Lucas Debargue (Scarlatti / Chopin / Liszt / etc. – Lucas Debargue) – Sony Classical
 * Chamber music: Quatuor Ébène (Schubert – String Quintet / Lieder) – Warner Music, Erato
 * Orchestral music: Concentus Musicus Wien, Nikolaus Harnoncourt (Beethoven – Symphonies 4 & 5) – Sony Classical
 * Choir music: Ensemble Pygmalion conducted by Raphaël Pichon (Wagner / Brahms / Schumann – Rheinmädchen) – [PIAS] The Netherlands, Harmonia Mundi
 * De ontdekking [The discovery]: Barbara Hannigan, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra conducted by Andris Nelsons (Abrahamsen – Let Me Tell You) – [PIAS] Holland Harmony Mundi, Winter & Winter

title: Edison Award


text: Category:Religion in India

title: Category:Religion in India


text:
Minot Why Nots

The Minot Why Nots were a minor league baseball team based in Minot, North Dakota, United States that played in the Northern League in 1917.

title: Minot Why Nots