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AMC Spirit

The AMC Spirit is a subcompact car sold by American Motors Corporation (AMC) from 1979 through 1983. Replacing the AMC Gremlin, the Spirit was available in two different body styles, both of which were two-door hatchbacks – but neither was marketed as such. Instead, AMC offered a restyled Gremlin either as a "Spirit Kammback" or "sedan", while an additional model with a more gently sloping rear was introduced as the "Spirit Liftback" or "coupe". Due to budget constraints, the Spirit shared the Gremlin's platform – its floorpan, powertrains, and many other parts were carried over. AMC also offered a four-wheel drive cross-over version using the Spirit's bodywork, marketed from 1981 through 1983 model years as the AMC Eagle SX/4 and Eagle Kammback (1981-1982 only). Spirits were manufactured by AMC in both Wisconsin and Ontario, as well as under license by V.A.M. in Mexico where they retained the Gremlin name on the restyled models.

Performance versions of the AMC Spirit competed in road racing. In 1979, B.F. Goodrich sponsored a two-car team of Spirit AMXs in the Nürburgring 24 Hours. The AMXs were the first American entries and they finished first and second in their class out of a 120-car field. Spirits were also privately campaigned in International Motor Sports Association (IMSA) Champion Spark Plug Challenge and Racing Stock Class events, as well as in drag racing.

Background

The AMC Spirit was largely a restyled Gremlin, which had been manufactured from 1970 through 1978. Engineering and equipment upgrades introduced on the 1978 Concord carried over to the subcompact Spirit. The suspension system was revised with "soft-ride" mountings for the coil springs over A-arms in the front and the rear live-axle with leaf springs to improve ride and handling. Features included enhanced sound-deadening and corrosion protection as well as lightweight aluminum bumpers, lock-up automatic transmission converter, and higher-compression six-cylinder camshaft and pistons for economy, performance, and emissions.

The body received new styling and a liftback model was added to the previous two-door sedan. Dick Teague's "more-conventional" design of the new liftback coupe "had a particularly graceful superstructure for such a short car". A road test by Popular Science described the transition as AMC having the "cleverest engineers in Detroit" cementing their reputation of "getting $200 worth of looks for $100".

1979

As a restyled variant of the previous Gremlin, the Spirit featured distinctly larger rear quarter windows while retaining the instrument panel introduced on the 1978 Gremlin, with a wood grain overlay on DL and Limited models.

Riding on the same wheelbase as the sedan, the liftback was identical to the sedan from the A-pillar forward and featured a sloping roof (compromising rear headroom) and a hatchback with a more shallow Kammback tail. The rear license plate hid the fuel filler cap. The Spirit offered a generous cruising range with its "fuel tank capacity of 21 gallons and probable fuel mileage of 25 mpg or more ... enabling the car's driver to travel over 500 miles between fill ups".

Standard equipment levels and convenience features were increased on the new Spirit compared to the Gremlin. For example, the DL models featured upgraded trim inside and out, including color-keyed wheel covers, custom bucket seats in corduroy fabric or "sport" vinyl upholstery, wood accents on the dashboard, steering wheel, and floor gearshift knob, and fluorescent-display digital clock. The top trim Limited model included leather seats and trim, air conditioning, AM/FM radio, an adjustable steering wheel, dual remote outside mirrors, a full-length center console with armrest, and many more features.

The GT package was available on the Spirit liftback and included among other features, blacked-out exterior trim, radial tires with styled wheels, black leather-wrapped sport steering wheel and console, tachometer, and "Rallye" gauges, as well as a special "deep-tone" exhaust system. The package also had a rear spoiler, and other sporty features that offered AMC to have a competitor in design, style, price, size, and performance to the new-for-1979 Fox-based Ford Mustang. A separate GT "rally-tuned" suspension option included tuned front and rear sway bars, "Hi-Control" rear leaf springs with "iso-clamp" pads, special strut rod bushings, adjustable Gabriel "Strider" shock absorbers, as well as heavy-duty brakes and quick ratio steering box.

The standard engine on all models except the AMX was a 121 cuin EA831 inline-four supplied by Audi. Optional were AMC's 232 cuin and 258 cuin inline-sixes (the latter standard on the AMX). The 304 cuin AMC V8 engine was offered as an option only on the liftback. The 1979 model year would mark a one-year reprieve for V8 availability in the short 96 in wheelbase AMC chassis. The last time this configuration was available was in the 1976 Gremlin. All engines could be mated to either a standard 4-speed manual transmission or an optional 3-speed TorqueFlite automatic transmission with floor shift, depending on trim and options. A 3-speed manual transmission was available as a delete option with the 232 engine.

The four-cylinder engine is the same overhead camshaft unit carried over from the Gremlin, and was also available on the Concord. It used the same cast parts as the Porsche 924 (both made by VW/Audi), but was assembled in an AMC plant in Indiana to different specifications than that of the Porsche engine. The AMC version was only offered with a 2-barrel carburetor while the Porsche unit had electronic fuel injection and a higher compression ratio. It was available with either a 3-speed TorqueFlite automatic transmission with special gear ratios or a Borg-Warner HR1 4-speed manual.

The AMX model was transferred from the Concord hatchback to the Spirit liftback body for 1979 and came with either the 258 I6 or the 304 V8 engine. The AMX featured a flush blackout grille with an AMX emblem, fiberglass wheel flares, rear spoiler, ER60x14 white-letter tires on 14x7-inch "Turbocast II" aluminum wheels, blackout trim, "GT rally-tuned" suspension, floor shift transmission, an optional hood decal, and other sporty features.

Popular Science magazine compared the four-cylinder Spirit with the Chevrolet Chevette, Dodge Omni 024, and the imported Plymouth Champ describing the Spirit's "generous updating of the chassis and body have kept it fresh-looking." Despite its imported engine, with its heavy chassis it was "no economy standout ... what is special about the Spirit is the luxury finish ... with the look of a high-priced car." A Popular Mechanics survey of one-thousand owners after they had driven their cars a total of 795733 mi gave their Spirits "a strong vote of confidence as a basically fine automobile - good-looking, great handling, economical, smooth-riding, and quite comfortable for two people."

1980

The 3.8 L I6 was dropped from the lineup, as was the 5.0 L V8 to meet the 20 mpgus average corporate fleet fuel economy standard for the 1980 model year. The VW-based I4 was replaced with a Pontiac-built 2.5-liter I4 that was "better suited to the cars' size and weight specs." The 4.2 L I6 remained most popular, and the only engine available in the AMX model. To comply with the 1980s' much tougher emissions, computer-controlled carburetors were designed for better economy and operation. No major exterior changes were seen, except on the AMX, as its grille emblem moved to the center.

All AMCs, including the Spirit, received a new rust-proofing process called Ziebart Factory Rust Protection. This included aluminized trim screws, plastic inner fender liners, galvanized steel in every exterior body panel, and a deep-dip (up to the window line) bath in epoxy-based primer. AMC backed up the rust protection program with a five-year "No Rust Thru" component to its comprehensive "Buyer Protection Plan".

1981

The 1981 model year AMC Spirits received a new crosshatch grille with a single crosshair element. New optional "Noryl" wheel covers were added. The leather-clad Limited models were canceled, leaving the DL as the top-rung model. The AMX model was discontinued, but the liftback was available with the GT appearance package, available on both base and DL trims, with both engines. An optional G.T. rally-tuned suspension for the liftback included special front and rear sway bars, tuned strut rod bushings and rear spring iso-clamp pads, heavy-duty adjustable Gabriel Strider shock absorbers, "hi-control" rear leaf springs, and a faster steering box ratio. New options included power windows, rear window wiper and washer, power antenna, as well as tricolored "rally" stripes.

A four-speed manual transmission was standard while the optional three-speed automatic now included a lockup torque converter, and radial tires were standard fitment across the lineup.

The 258 CID I6 was redesigned and made 90 lb lighter, as well as smoother, higher low-end torque, more economical, and requiring less maintenance. The numerous engineering improvements and the substitution of aluminum for iron and steel made the venerable AMC engine "the lightest in-line Six in the domestic industry", at 445 lb.

The 1981 AMC EPA fuel economy figures for the 49 states were:
 * 23 mpgus city and 33 mpgus highway for the 4-cylinder 4-speed
 * 20 mpgus city and 26 mpgus highway for the 4-cylinder automatic
 * 19 mpgus city and 28 mpgus highway for the 6-cylinder 4-speed
 * 19 mpgus city and 26 mpgus highway for the 6-cylinder automatic

There were four kinds of wheel treatments this year that included the "Custom Wheel Cover" or standard full wheel discs, "Full Styled" wheel cover made of Noryl which was standard on the Spirit DL, the "Spoke Styled Wheels" which were standard on the Spirit G.T., and the "Turbocast II" aluminum wheels which were optional on all models. Fifteen exterior paint colors were available in 1981. They were Olympic White, Classic Black, Quick Silver Metallic, Steel Gray Metallic, Medium Blue Metallic, Moonlight Blue, Autumn Gold, Sherwood Green Metallic, Cameo Tan, Copper Brown Metallic, Medium Brown Metallic, Dark Brown Metallic, Oriental Red, Vintage Red Metallic, and Deep Maroon Metallic. Interiors were available in "Deluxe Grain" vinyl in black, blue, beige, and nutmeg. "Coventry Check" fabric was available in black, blue, beige, and nutmeg.

American Motors led the way in galvanized steel news for 1981, by applying one-sided and two-sided galvanized materials to all of the exterior body panels on all its models. AMC tied these applications into its warranty program and the Spirit was advertised as "One Tough American Economy car" highlighting its galvanized steel in every exterior body panel. According to Dale E. Dawkins, AMC's vice-president, "Every square inch of inner surface on exterior body panels is galvanized on our Spirit, Concord, and Eagle models." to support AMC's new "Tough Americans" marketing campaign highlighting the long warranty and rustproofing measures included in their cars.

For the 1981 model year, AMC introduced Eagle models (SX/4 liftback and Kammback sedan) based on both Spirit body styles.

1982

Changes to the Spirit for 1982 were mostly mechanical. A new 5-speed manual transmission was offered as an option, thus the "Spirit GT became America's first pony car available with a 5-speed gearbox." New low-drag front disc brakes were standard. Together, they allowed the 2.5 L Spirit to achieve 37 mpgus on the highway, according to the 1982 EPA estimates. For automatic transmission-equipped cars, the Chrysler sourced three-speed TorqueFlite ratios were more widely spaced to afford better mileage.

American Motors Company was always a company that took chances in the name of innovation and promoted the 1982 Spirit in an unusual television ad campaign. Trying to differentiate their cars from the competition, and to make a point that the "Tough Americans" come with Ziebart rustproofing and a five-year rust warranty, the ads show a new Spirit dropped into 30 ft of saltwater.

1983

The Spirit sedan was deleted from the line in 1983, along with the 2.5 L I4 and the base model liftback. All 1983 Spirits were 4.2 L-equipped liftbacks in either DL or new GT trim. The Spirit GT's performance was described as "neck-snapping quickness" compared to the competing sporty cars with 4-cylinder engines.

The GT package became its own model separate from the DL for the Spirit's last year. Advertisements stressed the higher level of standard equipment in both Spirit DL and Spirit GT, which sold for US$5,995 and US$6,495, respectively. The Spirit GT version was compared to the liftback version of Ford's Mustang.

For the 1983 model year, AMC introduced the new Renault Alliance, which was a much more modern, space-efficient, fuel-efficient, front-wheel-drive subcompact car than the rear-drive Spirit, with its 14-year-old platform. The Spirit was canceled as AMC released the Alliance-based Encore hatchbacks for 1984. In addition, the front-wheel drive Renault Fuego, "a nicely executed sports coupe," was also sold by AMC dealers as an alternative to the Spirit GT. The Fuego had distinctive styling, four-passenger room, fuel economy (U.S. EPA rated at 39 mpgus on the highway), and it received good reviews in the automotive media.

Spirit AMX

An AMX version of the Spirit liftback was offered for 1979 and 1980 as a way of invoking the memory of the original two-seat 1968 through 1970 AMX.

Spirit AMX model featured special body color-matched fender flares and front air dam, "Rally-Tuned" suspension with 1.06 in front and 0.75 in rear sway bars, high-effort power steering gears, front and rear three-way adjustable "Strider" Gabriel (brand name) shock absorbers, heavy-duty semi-metallic 10.8 in front disk brakes with ribbed 10x1.2-inch (254x30.5 mm) rear drum brakes, unique AMX grille, "Turbocast II" 14x7-inch aluminum road wheels with ER60x14 Goodyear "Flexten" GT radial RWL (raised white letter) tires, rear spoiler, special striping package, hood and door decals, console shifted automatic or manual transmission with "Rallye Gauge" package (total of eight dials including an intake-manifold vacuum gauge), as well as simulated aluminum dash overlays with AMX badge on the glove compartment door.

Changes in the standard AMX equipment for 1980 were exclusively flat-finished black flares and air dam, standard 14x6-inch "Magnum 500" styled road wheels with the wider aluminum wheels now made optional, and deletion of the simulated aluminum dash overlays. Although the car "wasn't actually fast, it sure looked the part" with an "aggressive appearance." The quick-ratio power steering, large-diameter front and rear sway bars, as well as racing-tuned shock absorbers, provided excellent handling."

The biggest powerplant on the 1979 AMX was AMC's 304 CID V8 and it was the last AMC passenger car to have a factory-installed V8 engine. With the required emission devices and lowered compression ratios, the car felt adequately powered and could still deliver highway fuel economy ratings of about 20 mpgus. Motor Trend described the AMX's performance as not bad for the day. Given the "emissions-choked" two-barrel Motorcraft carburetor, a three-speed automatic transmission, and "freeway-friendly" rear differential gearing, the AMX reached a top speed of slightly more than 100 mph, going 0 to 60 mph in 10.6 seconds, and the quarter-mile dragstrip in 17.6 seconds. The 304 V8 equipped AMXs came with "sport-tuned exhaust" that made a noticeably different gurgle sound in contrast to the regular stock quiet muffler. For 1980, the V8 option was dropped making the 258 CID I6 engine standard with only a 2.53 rear axle ratio with either the standard floor shifter 4-speed manual or 3-speed automatic transmissions.

The Spirit AMX was an innovative concept and was well executed from an engineering standpoint, highlighting the creative thinking and skilled engineering on a low budget that characterized AMC's efforts." The Spirit line was markedly improved and performed well, but AMC was unable to overcome the perception that its products were outdated. Moreover, the Spirit AMX was introduced the same year as the similar but new Fox Platform Ford Mustang.

The Spirit AMX was discontinued after the two model years and replaced with the similar Eagle SX/4, a sporty four-wheel-drive successor. This model was the last car to wear the AMX name and has achieved popularity with AMC enthusiasts. Some owners modify the cars since it is easy to install a larger displacement AMC engine.

AMXs at the Nürburgring

In October 1979, the B.F. Goodrich sponsored a pair of AMXs in the annual FIA Group One 24-hour race held at Germany's legendary Nürburgring. The 1979 304 CID V8-powered Spirit AMX was already homologated for European Group One Touring Car races.

The cars were the first-ever American entries in this grueling race. They would compete against smaller-engined, but more agile competitors from BMW, Ford, Opel, VW, Renault, and Audi.

Drivers Amos Johnson and his partner Dennis Shaw were the team principals in the North Carolina-based "Team Highball." Supporting drivers were factory Mazda driver Jim Downing (who would later co-develop the HANS device), actor James Brolin, Lyn St. James, and automotive journalist Gary Witzenburg. Two street-stock cars (both with AMC 304 cuin and four-speed manual transmissions) were supplied to "Team Highball" for Group One race modifications less than three weeks before a transport ship would sail to Europe.

With almost no prior driving time on the racecourse, and with the race practice cut short by fog, the team qualified the cars in 20th and 21st overall. The #1 Johnson/Shaw/Brolin car was given the faster set-up, with the objective of winning the race.

In the race, the #1 car suffered broken front shock absorbers and a slipping clutch, and the engine burned oil. Witzenburg reported the brakes and both front shocks "all but gone" in #2 – pumping the brakes dragged the front spoiler, but had little effect on speed. Moreover, since the AMXs were "rather crude" compared with the smaller, lighter cars they were racing against, they lost time in the turns. Nevertheless, Witzenburg said the cars "ran great," especially on the straights where they reached about 140 mph.

After driving almost 2000 mi, they finished first and second in class, 25th and 43rd overall out of a field of 120. They were also the fastest entrants using street tires - BFG T/A radials, and had no tire failures.

The preparation of the cars and the team's experience of the race itself were covered by a period documentary film, The Ultimate Challenge.

The #1 AMX Nürburgring race car "served as a showcar for a few months after the race, then went into storage for about 25 years" and has only about 4000 mi on its odometer. The #2 race car returned to the racing circuit for several years, but has been located and reunited with the original drivers after over 25 years.

IMSA racing
AMC Spirits also campaigned in International Motor Sports Association (IMSA) Champion Spark Plug Challenge and Racing Stock Class events. With only limited support from AMC, mainly with some technical help, AMC Spirits were prepared by "Team Highball" and driven by Amos Johnson and Dennis Shaw.

Several AMC Spirits were entered in the 1979 World Challenge for Endurance Drivers. A Spirit was driven by Joe Varde and Dave Cowart in the 6 Hours of Talladega finishing the race in third place (an AMC Concord finished first, an AMC Gremlin was second, and an AMC Pacer was fourth) out of starting field of 49 cars. Five other AMC Spirits were also racing on 1 April 1979. On 1 June 1979, an AMC Spirit driven by Dennis Shaw and Don Whittington won the 6-Hour Champion Spark Plug Challenge at the Daytona International Speedway covering 151 laps and a distance of 933.162 km averaging 155.101 km/h. AMC Spirits also finished in 5, 6, 11, 29, 37, and 42 places out of a total 62 starting cars.

The 1980 World Challenge for Endurance Drivers began with an AMC Spirit driven by Keith Swope and Mauricio DeNarvaez finishing in fourth place at Daytona's 6-Hour Champion Spark Plug Challenge on 29 June 1980. Eleven other Spirits placed out of the 72 cars that started in the race. A team consisting of Lou Statzer, Amos Johnson, and Dennis Shaw ran a Spirit AMX 84 laps in the GTX class at the 28th Annual Coca-Cola 12 Hours of Sebring on 22 March 1980.

Turbo pace car

Two AMC AMX Pace cars were prepared to serve as four official safety cars each year in Championship Auto Racing Teams (CART) for the 1980 and 1981 auto-racing seasons. The objective was to create one pace car for each of the four major American car companies based on the existing production models of that time.

Both used the Spirit liftback body with the first one shown by PPG Industries featuring a white/red/blue/black painted production 1979 Spirit AMX with covered headlamps and integrated and smoothed front bumper and air dam unit. The current status of this car is unknown.

The 1981 car was a highly modified fastback constructed by Autodynamics of Troy, Michigan under contract from PPG Industries. Designed by Dick Teague, AMC's Vice President of Automotive Design, the body has a more aerodynamic efficient, fiberglass shell with smooth bumpers. A unique ram air induction system was designed into the rear quarter panel while the rear featured an integrated spoiler with a high center fuel fill. The interior was modified to include new front racing bucket seats along with a special roll bar and cage.

The turbocharged and fuel-injected 258 CID I6 was built by Turbo-Systems Inc. to produce 450 bhp. The car is equipped with Goodyear Eagle GT low profile 245/50x16 tires on 16 x Gotti aluminum alloy wheels. The car made its debut as the official pace car for the Milwaukee 150 on 7 June 1981, for the 14 race series.

This was the final chapter in AMC's AMX racing story and the car went to AMC's Vice President of Design, Richard Teague. It has since been maintained by collectors with the AMX Turbo regularly appearing at automobile shows.

Performance

Exploiting the ease and low cost of modifying an AMC Gremlin for higher performance, as well as their inherent strength, Spirits were used in drag racing. According to Hot Rod magazine, "these little cars are very cool, and while they're not traditional muscle cars, they're plenty strong in terms of performance."

Using mostly AMC hardware, the AMC Spirit could perform exceptionally well as a street car and in multiple racing arenas (including quarter-mile e.t. of 12.8 at 110 mph), with the finished vehicle costing only about $10,000. Some owners of Spirits have been converted with the 360 CID AMC V8 engines and run the quarter-mile drag strip on an 11.88 dial. AMC Spirits in the Factory Street class have run e.t. of 10.62 at 126.27 mph.

Some owners of Spirits have also heavily modified their cars for pro-class drag racing using AMC engines. Other engines have also been substituted.

Stirling experimental engines

The AMC Spirit served as a test vehicle for alternative engine and fuel experiments. The Stirling engine was considered theoretically to be the most efficient of the alternative heat engines under development during the late 1970s.

The Automotive Stirling Engine (ASE) Program consisted of one large engine development contract and a small technology effort. This included a MOD 1 Stirling powered 1979 AMC Spirit engineering test vehicle built by Mechanical Technology to develop and demonstrate practical alternatives. In partnership with the United States Department of Energy (DOE), National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), and built under contract by AMC's AM General wholly owned subsidiary, the United Stirling AB's "P-40" powered Spirit was tested extensively for over 50000 mi and achieved average fuel efficiency up to 28.5 mpgus. The Spirit could use gasoline, diesel, or common ethanol fuel mixtures. A 1981 AMC Spirit powered by a 53-kW Stirling engine was also evaluated for performance, emissions, fuel economy, and cooling-system adequacy, but originally assembled as a transient test bed for the engine, the 3250 lb vehicle lacked sufficient performance. The Stirling engines used early in the program delivered an acceleration time of 36 seconds, while the early upgraded Mod I engine installed in an AMC Spirit took 26 seconds. The cars were tested by General Motors Research Laboratories (CMRL) in April 1984, to provide an independent evaluation.

The tests demonstrated that the type of engine "could be developed into an automotive power train for passenger vehicles and that it could produce favorable results." However, progress was achieved with equal-power spark-ignition engines since 1977, and the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) achieved by automobiles in the U.S. did not stand still. The Stirling engine still showed a shortfall in fuel efficiency and concerns about the ability to mass-produce it. There were also two things wrong with Stirling engine power: first was the time needed to warm up (because most drivers do not like to wait to start driving), and second was the difficulty in changing the engine's speed (thus limiting flexibility when driving). A 1980 AMC Concord was also fitted with a P-40 engine and used to inform the public about the Stirling engine and the ASE program.

The experiments showed the Stirling engine could be better to power an extended-range electric vehicle rather than serving as the primary power for an automobile. The Spirit with the Stirling engine was better suited to run at a constant power setting, in contrast to the internal combustion engine with its easy throttle regulation over a wide range. Although successful in the MOD 1 and MOD 2 phases of the experiments, cutbacks in funding further research and lack of interest by automakers ended possible commercialization of the Automotive Stirling Engine Program.

After the experiment period ended, the P-40 Stirling engine that was tested in the Spirit was removed and the car was sold at a government surplus auction.

VAM models
Mexican government-owned automaker Vehiculos Automotores Mexicanos (VAM) assembled sedan and liftback Spirits under license with AMC from 1979 (sedan) and 1980 (liftback) through 1983. To meet government regulations, VAM vehicles had to have at least 60% locally sourced parts. Mexican-built "AMCs" came with different exterior and interior trim, as well as model names than their counterparts in the United States and Canada. For example, the Spirit 2-door sedan was called "Gremlin". The Spirit liftback models were called "Rally". This meant that the two Spirit body styles in Mexico were two separate lines within VAM's product mix with the sedan targeted at the economy market segment while the liftback was almost exclusively focused towards performance. The Rally-based Spirit was the successor to VAM's American Rally AMX top-of-the-line performance model that was based on the 1978 U.S. domestic market AMC Concord AMX while the Gremlin-based Spirit can be described as a generation change within an already existing model.

All VAM engines were of AMC design, but built at the Lerma, Estado de México engine assembly plant. They featured modifications to deal with low octane fuel and high altitudes. These included different head designs and exhaust porting. An indigenous VAM engine was the 282 CID version of the AMC Straight-6 engine with an enlarged bore and wider dished pistons (3.909 in bore, 3.894 in stroke) as well as a unique head and exhaust porting design. The V8 and four cylinder engines were not available in Mexico.

Sedan
The VAM-based Spirit sedan was available in the same model configuration as the AMC Gremlin in the first half of the 1970s, including the equivalent sporty model still called the Gremlin X, which in Mexico was a higher trim level instead of an optional package. The U.S. versions such as the sedan-based Spirit DL and Spirit Limited models were not available, as also were not the previous generation's AMC Gremlin GT and AMC Gremlin Custom models. The four-cylinder engine and column-mounted shifters, plus several accessories were also not offered.

1979
Both VAM versions incorporated manual front disk brakes, front sway bar, floor-mounted three-speed manual transmissions, a 3.31:1 rear differential gear ratio, and the 258 CID I6 engine with a Carter YF one-barrel carburetor, 266-degree camshaft and 8.0:1 compression ratio rated at 121 hp at 3900 rpm. Both versions were equipped with a 140 km/h / 90 mph speedometer, individual fold-down front seats, three-point seat belts, parcel shelf, front and rear ashtrays, cigarette lighter, locking glove-box, padded sun visors, carpeting, round dome light, inside hood release, rear spoiler, AM radio, and antenna. The Gremlin X model included a Hurst linkage for the manual transmission, power steering, bumper guards, wheel trim rings, narrow longer volcano hubcaps, blacked-out side glass and door window frames, wider 70X14 radial tires, front fender "4.2 Litros" decals, a sports grille designed by VAM, tinted windshield, AMC's three-arm spoked sports steering wheel with a VAM logo on the horn button, light group (lighter, glove box, courtesy, and hood), bright molding package (rocker panels, wheel lips, and drip rails), digital tachometer and retractable three-point seatbelts instead of the non-retractable fixed units. Door panels were the same in both versions except that the X had lower carpet inserts and map pouches. The roof rack that was standard on the base model was optional on the X version. The heater was optional on the base Gremlin with manual transmission and standard for the base automatic and all X versions. The base Gremlin had few options, while the Gremlin X offered a greater list. The base model offered bumper guards, power steering, a light group, a bright molding package, a tinted windshield, a sports steering wheel, and wheel trim rings. The X versions could be ordered with air conditioning, reading dome light, AM/FM radio, rear defogger, and sunroof. Options shared by both versions were limited to a TorqueFlite A904 three-speed automatic transmission, power brakes, passenger's side remote mirror, and dual remote-controlled mirrors.

1980

The 1980 models now included a locking gas cap, and fold-down high-back individual seats with adjustable headrests, as well as the heater was made standard even on the base model with manual transmission. New features were a split rear seatback, a 180 km/h / 110 mph speedometer, new seat patterns, a seven-blade flexible fan for the 258 six, new steering wheel designs for each trim level, and a new VAM grille design shared between the two versions. The X model included a new side decal design and blacked-out hubcaps. The optional equipment list for the Gremlin X included a new AM/FM stereo radio, an electric antenna, and intermittent wipers.

1981
For the 1981 model year, the Spirit sedan-based VAM Gremlin saw the greatest changes since 1979. Both versions obtained a 55-amp alternator, coolant recovery tank, and fan shroud regardless of trim level or the presence of the air conditioning system, as well as a new shared grille design with vertical bars and a single horizontal one in the bottom plus a shared new seat pattern design. For the first time, door panels completely covered all previously exposed metal parts. International symbols appeared in the instrument cluster warning lights and the light beam switch was integrated into the steering column marker light lever. The Gremlin X received numerous updates. All chromed items were deleted other than the front end and rear license plate light housings while the rear spoiler was moved to the options list. Both bumpers changed to blacked-out units. Side decals were almost gone, with only a small "Gremlin X" one at the bottom corner of each C-pillar. A new leather-wrapped sports steering wheel with six simulated hex socket bolts on the horn button was used. A four-speed manual transmission with Hurst linkage and a 3.07:1 rear axle gear ratio became standard. Cars with automatic transmission retained the 3.31:1 rear gear ratio. The optional equipment list included eight-spoke sports-style steel wheels using the same volcano hubcaps as the standard wheels.

1982
The downturn of the Mexican economy early in 1982 and a government decree banning the importation of "luxury" automotive accessories hit the country's auto industry. The 1982 VAM Gremlin returned as a consolidated model. Both trim levels incorporated amber front parking lights and the AMC square pattern grille design that was used in U.S. domestic Eagle models. The base model incorporated chromed headlight bezels with blacked-out internal areas while the X model was completely blacked-out as also were the hood trim molding and grille. The 258 CID I6 was upgraded for the first time since 1976, receiving a higher 8.5:1 compression ratio and net output of 117 hp at 4000 rpm. The A904 automatic transmission was replaced by the A998 with wider gear ratios for the year. The base model was similar to the prior year except for the new side trim and front-end design. The X model saw the return of side decals in the form of four thin stripes starting at the base of the B-pillar trim molding and running all the way to the front edge of the fenders near the marker lights. A new silver "GX" decal appeared between the rear window and the right-side tail light. The sports steering wheel was replaced by the base design. The model was restricted to a three-speed automatic transmission with the addition of the AMX/GT's console-type shifter boot and the rear differential changed to a 3.07:1 ratio as used the year before with the now-unavailable four-speed manual.

1983
Early in 1983, VAM was taken over by Renault from the Mexican government and a reduced VAM passenger car line appeared for the year. This was to use up the existing inventory and to fulfill the previous agreements with sourcing companies as well as to deliver existing individual customer orders. The VAM Gremlin was carried over for 1983, becoming the last-ever AMC Spirit sedan model produced. This body style lasted one full year after AMC's dropped its equivalent from the U.S. lineup. The 1983 Gremlin was restricted to the base model with a three-speed manual transmission. It was the same as the prior year with the exception of incorporating dual remote mirrors and bumper guards as standard equipment. At a dealership level, virtually all previous accessories were still available as either individual options or packages including those of the X model. A change to the 1983 Gremlin was to the engine's head design. It incorporated smaller spark plugs and thus allowing an improved intake port configuration. The engine now featured a plastic valve cover.

Liftback

The VAM-based Spirit liftback became VAM's top-of-the-line performance product, the Rally AMX being focused to replace the previous Concord AMX-based American Rally AMX models and the Rally GT as the replacement of the limited edition Concord two-door sedan-based American 06/S. The top-performance VAM Spirit liftback was the GT rather than the AMX model. Rather than offering a range of models by AMC, the VAM versions were performance and premium models. Due to accessories and focus, the VAM Rally AMX is relatively similar to an AMC Spirit DL with a GT package and most performance options.

1980
The Rally-based Spirit liftbacks were available in two sports versions, the standard "Rally AMX" and the high-performance "Rally GT" in their first year. Both versions came standard with a Transmission Technologies Corporation (Tremec) 176-F four-speed manual transmission with Hurst linkage, power brakes with front discs and rear drums, power steering, front and rear sway bars, heavy-duty shock absorbers and springs, seven-bladed flexible cooling fan, tinted windshield, leather-wrapped three-arm sports steering wheel, tachometer, a center console with armrest and "Rallye" gauges plus rear ashtray, reclining bucket seats with adjustable headrests, split-back rear seat, three-point retractable seatbelts, woodgrain panels on the dashboard, full light group (hood, courtesy, ashtray, glove box) except reading dome light, blacked-out dual remote-controlled mirrors and VAM-designed aluminum grille with a central "Rally" emblem. The Rally AMX had the standard 132 hp 282 CID I6 using a 3.07:1 rear axle gear ratio, while the Rally GT came with the high-performance 172 hp version of this VAM engine and a 3.31:1 rear gear ratio. The heavy-duty cooling system consisting of a fan shroud and coolant recovery tank was optional on the AMX and standard on the GT, some units of this version came with a clutch fan instead of the regular belt-type. The Rally AMX was the "base model" of the line and the Rally GT was closer to the European tradition of performance cars with its analog tachometer (instead of the AMX's digital tach), while convenience items such as air conditioning or automatic transmission were not available. The GT model also included a rear spoiler with an electric liftgate lock release and eight-spoke steel wheels (which were optional on the AMX). The AMX came with VAM's own design five-spoke wheels with trim rings and blacked-out volcano hubcaps. The marketing effort by VAM's sales department had most GT units be equipped from the factory with all the options originally intended to be an extra cost, such as the rear defroster, reading dome light, intermittent wipers, and an AM/FM stereo radio, aside from the already mentioned steel wheels and rear spoiler. These items were all optional on the AMX.

The Rally AMX featured three-tone body side decals from the top of the front fenders to the rear corners of the side glass, a design based on AMC's 1979–1980 AMX graphics. VAM's 1977 decal design for the word "Rally" was used as background for AMC's "AMX" decal design. Both designs were one on top of the other to create a "Rally AMX" logo located on the lower front corner of each door. The Rally AMX also included a "4.6 Litros" sticker on both front fender sides. The Rally GT was more subdued, featuring only a gold-colored "American GT" emblem below the rear side glass and a large "4.6 / X" decal on the right corner of the rear spoiler. Due to a last-minute mistake or misunderstanding in VAM's management, the Rally GT was actually called "American GT" this year. The GT does not have a "Rally" emblem on its grille, which is the same design as the one used by the AMX. This also meant an "American" emblem on the glove box door instead of the "Rally" one. Early in the year, customer preference made VAM discontinue the side decals on the AMX, leaving only the superposed "Rally" and "AMX" designs and the "4.6 Litros" fender decal.

1981
The 1981 model year represented a radical upgrade for VAM's top performance line. An all-new "rally" emblem design in all-lowercase letters and computer-like typography appeared on both front fenders. The Rally AMX obtained a new "waved" stripe design located on the front edge of the hood and fenders with an integrated "AMX" on the right front corner. It was very discreet compared to the last year's decals while the "AMX over Rally" and "4.6 Litros" stickers were removed. The Rally GT has small "GT" stickers for the front of the hood bulge and "GT 4.6/X" stickers for the right corner of the rear spoiler. The previous year's "American GT" side decals and "GT" central rear spoiler emblem were deleted. Both versions shared all-new impressive Recardo-type reclining bucket seats with adjustable headrests, all-new door panels in vinyl with cloth and carpet inserts, but they no longer had map pouches, AMC's barred grille design used in the Eagle models made in aluminum instead of plastic, international symbols on the instrument cluster warning lights, the high beams switch integrated to the steering column, a new leather-wrapped sports steering wheel design with six fake Allen bolts on the horn button forming a hexagon, AM/FM stereo radio with four speakers as standard equipment and higher quality dashboard woodgrain panels. Mechanically, the coolant recovery tank and fan shroud became present. The optional equipment list was vastly improved; the set of power door locks and windows that debuted the year before in the American (Concord) line became available in the Rally. The GT had the electric antenna while the AMX included the rear spoiler with electric trunk release, both as standard equipment. The optional equipment list for the Rally AMX included air conditioning, automatic transmission, intermittent wipers, reading dome light, rear defroster, sports steel wheels, electric antenna, power door locks, and power windows; the list of the Rally GT was restricted to the electric locks and windows only while the rest of the accessories were standard except for the unavailable automatic transmission and air conditioning.

New for 1981 was the introduction of a third trim level within the VAM's Rally line, the company's first high-end luxury sporty model called Rally SST. This version carried the same mechanicals as the Rally AMX except that it came equipped from the factory with a three-speed automatic transmission. The car featured bright trim on the rocker panels, wheel lips, drip rails, B-pillar molding plus door and side glass bases. The moldings for the windshield and rear glass were also bright instead of blacked out while both bumpers were chromed. The lower portions of the sides, doors, and front fenders carried wide moldings with a horizontal six-stripe pattern. The in-house five-spoke wheels held AMC's "Noryl" wheel cover design. Finally, chromed squared mirrors with inside controls were fitted to the doors. The Rally SST is the closest VAM counterpart to the AMC Spirits in terms of appearance and the Mexican equivalent of the U.S. AMC Spirit Limited model. To enhance the luxury appointments of the line, a fender-mounted electric antenna was made standard equipment so the AMX's sporty roof-mounted diagonal design would not be present. The rear spoiler was not available. Among its unique characteristics, the Rally SST included side armrest safety reflectors and a sun visor with a lighted vanity mirror from the factory, which were unavailable in the AMXs and GTs. The interior of the Rally SST was the same as the one of the GTs and AMXs with the only exceptions of the center console having an open compartment in place of the auxiliary gauges and the quartz electric digital clock instead of both tachometer types. Despite the luxury focus, the sporty aspects were retained in the form of the individual reclining Recaro-type bucket seats, a center console with armrest and rear ashtray, floor-mounted transmission, leather-wrapped sports steering wheel, and the full suspension package with rear sway bar.

VAM originally intended the Rally SST to include as standard equipment only the same accessories as the 1981 Rally GT and the optional equipment list of the 1981 Rally AMX except for its own share of exclusive and not available accessories. However, the same story as the 1980 Rally GT repeated itself for the 1981 Rally SST. The need to stress differences between not just the three-version Rally line but also the new Spirit-based Lerma model forced VAM to act any way it could. Once again, the company's sales department determined that virtually all Rally SST units included all optional convenience accessories available in the Rally line from the factory. The final list of equipment for the Rally SST consisted of a tinted windshield, intermittent wipers, rear defroster, electric antenna, a full light group including a reading dome light, AM-FM stereo radio, quartz clock, a center console with a compartment, armrest, and a rear ashtray, lighted vanity mirror, side armrest safety reflectors, cigarette lighter, front ashtray, locking glove box, leather-wrapped sports steering wheel, inside hood release, air conditioning, parcel shelf, power door locks, power windows, power trunk release, dual remote-controlled mirrors, reclining bucket seats, retractable seatbelts, and removable trunk cover.

1982
Despite the Rally's outstanding performance on both the street and in the market, it was affected by a series of unexpected problems. Internally, VAM suffered problems with customers confusing the Rally SST and the three-door Lerma models. Moreover, the Lerma's high price and relatively plain looks for a high-end luxury model (intended to become VAM's new flagship since the departure of the Matador-based Classic line) meant low sales that turned out to be below VAM's expectations for the year. VAM gave priority to the Lerma and the high-trim American (Concord) models for luxury compared to the Rally line. The Lerma for 1982 was changed from being a single version to two different versions to create a price difference. The final flagship of the company was available as the semi-equipped Lerma 610 and the fully equipped Lerma 620, both in three and five doors. Externally, a set of misguided moves from the Mexican government took their toll on the whole auto industry. First, the legal exemption of up to 500 automobile engines without emission certification was revoked, affecting directly the high-performance 4.6/X engine of the Rally GT models. This was followed by a decree banning the importation of automotive luxury accessories that affected the whole auto industry. The only way for the automakers to keep on offering those accessories was to have them either produced or sourced locally, some found a replacement while others did not. In the VAM Rally's case, the list of accessories that were lost included the bullet-shaped sports remote mirrors, power door locks, power windows, electric trunk release, rear spoiler, analog tachometer, rear defroster, the Quartz digital clock, and the center console with armrest and rear ashtray.

VAM's decision to focus all efforts on the new two-version Lerma model plus the loss of luxury accessories meant the discontinuation of Rally SST for 1982. The loss of the exemption of 500 units of automobile engines without emission certification forced the retirement of the Rally GT. The only model left for 1982 was the Rally AMX, with substantial differences from the previous two years. The taillight surrounding areas plus the headlight bezels and front hood molding were completely blacked out, the last two parts also having a horizontal red stripe passing from edge to edge. An all-new grille design with a horizontal bar at the same height of the bezels' division between the parking lights and headlights and a vertical bar at the very center; behind these was a set of smaller narrower horizontal lines. Both bumpers for the year were those of the AMC Eagle SX/4 Sport, being blacked out and equipped with thick nerfing strips with central bright moldings and longer more aerodynamic bumper end caps with their respective bright molding. Unlike the previous two years, no decals or stickers of any kind were used. The standard wheel designs for the year were the eight-spoke steel units with blacked-out volcano hubcaps. Due to the impossibility of having the bullet-type door mirrors reproduced, the model switched to a sporty design that was used in the 1978 through 1980 models. However, the remote controls for these mirrors while still available were moved to the options list. The Recaro-type seats received new patterns with a smaller bucket shape to allow an easier in and out of the car on the driver's side (due to the lack of a tilt steering column). The door panels were the same units as in 1981 except for the change in the fabric portion from plain to a pattern of vertical stripes and the removal of a fake chrome molding in place of a woodgrain unit. The six-bolt sports steering wheel was replaced by a leather-wrapped three-arm Nardi unit. VAM managed to find a local company to reproduce the center console, but it was reduced to the shifter and gauges portions, deleting the armrest with the rear ashtray. Although a reduction in conveniences, two new options arrived for the year in the form of the AM/FM stereo tape player radio and the rear wiper and washer. The car received two changes in the mid-year, the first being a new wooden sports steering wheel and the second a new set of ten-round-spoked steel wheels. The only mechanical changes for the year were wider gear ratios for the A998 automatic transmission and in the mid-year, a new engine head design with rounded internal intake ports and smaller spark plug outlets, still retaining the metal valve cover of the previous years. A different head gasket was used to bring the compression ratio from 8.0:1 to 8.5:1.

The Rally GT and the Rally SST did not disappear completely this year; this can be described that they were downgraded from being trim levels to optional packages that were offered by several VAM dealerships. A Rally SST equivalent was created including most of the still available optional items including automatic transmission, air conditioning, rear wiper and washer, reading dome light, intermittent wipers, lighted vanity mirror on passenger's side sun visor, and built-in side armrest safety reflectors. The only options that were separate at all times were the new tape player, electric antenna, and mirror controls. This set of components was called "paquete de lujo" by VAM's dealerships and the units carrying it had no particular name or designation. On the other side of the coin, there was a second optional package for Rally AMXs with a manual transmission that included all mechanical components of the Rally GT 4.6 / X engine (302-degree camshaft, headers, Holley 2300 two-barrel carburetor, counterweight-modified high-acceleration Prestolite electronic distributor, and 3.31:1 rear differential gears) except for the ported head. Unlike the luxury package, units equipped with the performance one did get a special name that was either Rally ZX or Rally TX, depending on the dealership that sold the unit.

1983
The collapse of the Mexican economy in 1982 hit VAM along with the local auto industry. In February 1983, the Mexican government sold its share of VAM to Renault. The new owner was focused more on the Jeep vehicles along with VAM's dealer network and production facilities. Renault reduced production of VAM's passenger car line so it would not compete with its own products. The remaining 1983 VAM cars existed mostly to use up the highest possible amount of existing inventories, to fulfill the previous agreements with sourcing companies as well as delivering the existing individual customer orders. The 1983 Rally AMX is almost an exact copy of the 1982 model, specifically the second half of the model year production. The only differences between both are the presence of a rear ashtray design shared with the Gremlin and American (due to the loss of the console-mounted rear ashtray), a locally produced instrument cluster replacing the imported unit, and the chromed squared door mirrors originally used on the Rally SST (minus the still optional controls). Both optional packages of 1982 were still available this year.

Lerma

A unique to Mexico was the vehicle called the VAM Lerma that was based on the Concord's sedan chassis and incorporated the Spirit's rear liftback body parts and unique rear quarter panels.

Dodge Spirit
The Spirit name was used by Chrysler, which took over AMC in 1987, for a four-door compact sedan called the Dodge Spirit from 1989 through 1995 model years.

title: AMC Spirit


text: User:Bmortimer

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Bmortimer


text:
Talk:Greatest Love Songs vol. 666

This page was voted on for deletion at Votes for deletion/Greatest Love Songs vol. 666. The consensus was to keep it. dbenbenn | talk 00:10, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Greatest Love Songs vol. 666


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Symbollocks

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. -- AllyUnion (talk) 12:48, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Symbollocks
Neologism, fails Google tests. sjorford →•← 00:10, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable neologism. Megan1967 00:54, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy I believe this is "Mr. Suffix" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress#Mr._Suffix_.28Neologisms.29 and even if not it's damn close to patent nonsense. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 01:06, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Seems like neologism or a very obscure term; either way... --Sn0wflake 01:24, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. - Jpo 02:49, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Neologism, until there is some evidence to the contrary. Zzyzx11 06:07, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2005 February 24


text:
Talk:Germany/Archive 2

Shorter history section
I think the history section is far, far too long. It should be a brief summary of German history, with the details given in History of Germany. Any other votes for condensing it to two or three moderately-sized paragraphs? —Bkell 09:33, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You are right. And that is already done at least once — but editors who think that their pet peeves must be emphasized make the history section on the front page to grow all the time. --Ruhrjung 09:58, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Wow. Completely removing the entire history section was a bit more drastic than what I had in mind. —Bkell 06:33, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * I have now made a shorter version of the history section. Elizabeth A 22:30, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Removal of clarification of real reason for Jewish immigration surge
I've added that part, and, Elizabeth A, I think it's not too much to expect at least a reason stated in the log, when someone simply removes a condradicting page edit again.

The statements that: A) Russian/ex-Soviet Jews come to Germany mainly because of a climate of "tolerance" and B) The said immigrants often speak Yiddish; are simply wrong, as anyone who did spend a small amount of time in investigating this immigration trend will easily discover.

So I am going to add a shortened version again. Please start reading up on the topic before you think about removing that version again (maybe here http://www.berlin-judentum.de/englisch/immigration.htm).

Thanks.

-- Wikithor 11:18 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Middle or Western

Germany is widely considered to be located in the "middle" of Europe. Both geographically and, last but not least, culturally. While West Germany is a part of Western Europe, the former East Germany is not. Germany is the country connecting Eastern Europe with the western part. So "middle" is more descriptive. Elizabeth

 * "Middle" is more poetic but adds nothing to the understanding of the article. Keep "Western", as a widely understood and accepted term  garryq 15:40, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

 * "Middle" does add to the understanding of the article. Germany borders France and the low counties (clearly Western Europe) on the West, and Poland and the Czech Republic (clearly Eastern Europe) on the East.  As Elizabeth pointed out, the GDR was considered eastern europe, and the GFR was considered western europe.  Germany is the nexus between those two worlds.  I think "Middle" is more appropriate than Western. Satori 18:23, May 16, 2004 (UTC)

 * East Germany being "Eastern Europe" and West Germany being "Western Europe" was more likely due to the cultural and governmental forces at work (Soviet-controlled East vs. NATO West). I have a gigantic map of Europe on my wall, and looking at it, if Germany is in the "middle", then eastern Europe is two or three or maybe even four times larger (wider) than western Europe. My vote is that Germany counts as Western Europe. -Branddobbe 19:11, May 16, 2004 (UTC)

Germany may well be in the middle of the enlarged European Union, but that is not the same as being in the middle of Europe. Poland is not "Eastern Europe" by any other definition than according to strict Iron Curtain-dichotomy, which is obsolete. People, not the least in Germany, may wish to refer to Germany as the center of Europe and an European Empire in being, but this is not particularly encyclopedic, nor is it helpful or useful in this English-language context. It confuses the reader, and it makes this article less credible (and secondarily harm all of Wikipedia by decreasing its credibility). --Ruhrjung 21:37, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

 * I think you're being a little overdramatic. Perhaps the best thing to do is lose the reference altogether.  Interestingly, the wikipedia articles on Western Europe and Central Europe both include Germany, and the wikipedia article on Eastern Europe includes the GDR.  Apparently there's little consensus on where the imaginary dividing lines are, so the most encyclopedic term may simply be "Europe".
 * No way. I'm not overdramatic! ;-)
 * In every possible sense present-day Germany belongs to Western Europe: Culturally, ideologically, economically, historically. This might come to change, ultimately, as an effect of the integration of ten new members in the European Union. But if so, that will take quite some time.
 * I try, as much as possible, to stay away from editing articles on Germany. I try to stick to pages where I better can keep a "professional distance" to the subject. But this is quite simply too much for me. Beware Wikipedia of the idiosyncratic POV-pushers.
 * Ruhrjung 07:58, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

When I learned German at high school, some ten years ago, we used a book called "Mitten in Europa". I think some people here are counting the whole of Russia as part of Europe - which is problematic. Only a small part of Russia (largely included in the map above) is culturally belonging to Europe, and historically known as European Russia. Russia is mostly an Asian country, and even its European part is often not counted when talking about Europe. In English, "Europe" is mostly used for the region of what is now the EU and the small countries in Eastern Europe excluding Russia. Anyway, I've now changed the reference to "Central Europe", which should be acceptable to most people. As for the European Union membership, we don't need history in the introduction. Germany is a member of the Union (which is the important in this context), and there is no need for a distinction between West as East Germany here, as the state now known as "Germany" in English, but known as the Bundesrepublik Deutschland in German since 1949, referred to in the introduction as a member of the EU, is the same state as the state which was founding the predecessor of the EU (technically, the Union was founded in 1992, after the reunification). Elizabeth

 * If Russia's European part, stretching to Norway, the Gulf of Finland and Poland by the Baltics' South-East tip is not counted to Europe, then that's the result of bad Georgraphy education or ignorance of other reasons. (One would be tempted to guess in direction of the latter.)
 * This part is counted to Europe in the map above. And Germany is still located in the middle. Anyway, you know that the exclave between Poland and the Baltic countries is not a part of the historical Russia. This is nothing but hairsplitting. Elizabeth A
 * When English speakers used Germany for West Germany that can not be understood as support for the extremist right wing notions of East Germany as illegally occupied by the Soviet Union. It has necessarily to be understood as a short-form for West Germany, and as a short-form it's appropriate to extend whenever needed for clarity. East Germany was outside of the European Union until re-unified with West Germany. That meaning loses its sense if it's to be interpreted as referring to the 1992 morph of the technical aspects of EU. Refer to the founding of the European Coal and Steel Community instead of the European Union if that's the important distinction for you, but realize that this was a dramatic step in the post-Nazi rehabilitation of Germany, and of significant importance both for Germans and for neighboring nations (in Western Europe/West-Europe).
 * Your point is? To repeat my point: Bundesrepublik Deutschland is the state which founded the predecessor of the European Union. Bundesrepublik Deutschland annexed the territory of the former East Germany. A new state was not created by the reunification, but DDR ceased to exist. The important thing is to state that contemporary Germany is a member of the European Union, and that this state, in fact, was one of the founding members, just like this article. Referring historical details on the European Coal and Steel Community in the introduction is ridiculous. Elizabeth A
 * Western Europe is a concept in use. It's referred to in English language news papers quite frequently. And in a way that seldom, if ever, excludes Germany. The attempt to re-define Western Europe (at that page) is not suitable for Wikipedia. Wikipedia has to describe current usage, not prescribe new. /M.L.
 * Yes, Wikipedia has to describe current usage, not prescribe new. And Germany is widely considered a central European country. Elizabeth A
 * It is also widely considered a Western European country. It shows up in the articles on both Western and Central Europe. I think the best way to deal with this issue is to just refer to it as a European country and let the reader decide for themself if it's western or central. (Furthermore, the map I was looking at only included the European segment of Russia.) -Branddobbe 05:00, May 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Show that! --Ruhrjung 07:58, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

How about the 1911 Britannica? Agreed, it is a little outdated, but still relevant in my opinion.

http://81.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GE/GERMANY.htm

"GERMANY (Ger. Deutschland), or, more properly, THE GERMAN EMPIRE (Deutsches Reich), a country of central Europe. The territories occupied by peoples of distinctively Teutonic race and language are commonly designated as German, and in this sense may be taken to include, besides Germany proper (the subject of the present article), the German-speaking sections of Austria, Switzerland and Holland. But Germany, or the German empire, as it is now understood, was formed in 1871 by virtue of treaties between the North German Confederation and the South German states, and by the acquisition, in the peace of Frankfort (May 10, 1871), of Alsace-Lorraine, and embraces all the countries of the former German Confederation, with the exception of Austria, Luxemburg, Limburg and Liechtenstein. The sole addition to the empire proper since that date is the island of Heligoland, ceded by Great Britain in 1890, but Germany has acquired extensive colonies in Africa and the Pacific (see below, Colonies)."

Or a more late edition of Britannica

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=109145&tocid=0

"Germany

officially Federal Republic of Germany, German Deutschland or Bundesrepublik Deutschland  country of north-central Europe traversing the continent's main physical divisions, from the outer ranges of the Alps, northward across the varied country of the Central German Uplands, and then across the North German Plain, or Lowlands. It is bounded at its extreme north on the Jutland Peninsula by Denmark. East and west of the peninsula, the Baltic…"

Or simply try a google search for Germany and central europe/central european. Elizabeth A

I've already said this a number of times: It is completely irrelevant that the German Democratic Republic was not one of the founding members of the European Coal and Steel Community. First, the German Democratic Republic does not exist anymore! Second, the article is not dealing with the German Democratic Republic! However, the Federal Republic of Germany, which the article is dealing with, was one of the founding members. The Federal Republic annexed the territory of the GDR, but that does not mean that a new state was created. The US have also acquired new territories during its history, however, it does not mean a new state was created each time. The important in this case is to state that the contemporary Federal Republic of Germany is a member of the European Union, and it's certainly worth to mention that it was one of the founding ones (see France for another example).

Also, if you believe Germany is not located in central Europe, you should write to Britannica and ask them to correct their encyclopedia. Then you can convince me. Elizabeth

I did not like the last version, so I restored the old one. It was clumsy written and there is really no reason to make this more difficult than it is. Also, if we, contrary to other encyclopedias (which use simply "Central European"), should call Germany "Western and Central European", why not also "Western, Central and Eastern"? East Germany is clearly a part of Eastern Europe, not Western. Elizabeth

Have you liked any version but your own? See Talk:Central Europe for the discussion of by whom Germany is considered Central European. Please, try to start to cooperate with other contributors. --Ruhrjung 09:52, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

As you may have noticed, I have already showed you that both the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, and the last edition of it, states that Germany is "a country of central Europe" and a "country of north-central Europe traversing the continent's main physical divisions", respectively.

http://81.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GE/GERMANY.htm http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=109145&tocid=0

Here is the Columbia entry as well:

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ge/Germany.html

"Located in the center of Europe, it borders the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France on the west; Switzerland and Austria on the south; the Czech Republic and Poland on the east; Denmark on the north; and the Baltic Sea on the northeast."

You may also want to have a look at the article on Europe. According to the Columbia Encyclopedia, Central Europe includes "Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary".

http://www.bartleby.com/65/eu/Europe.html

Elizabeth A

 * I don't know what this edit war is about, but I am curious why so much information about Germany's location relative to its neighbors is included in the intro. That's the stuff of Geography of Germany, no?  This seems much, much less important than, say, salient features of recent German history, the origin of its modern state, or its current world position (there's some of that there now, of course). VV 01:04, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

In a crude graphical sense, the middle of Europe is in East-West direction to find along: 70N 40E Ø 65N 40E Arkhangelsk 60N 30E Saint Petersburg 55N 25E Vilnius 50N 25E Lvov 45N 25E Bucharest 40N 10E Sardinia In a North-South direction, to find somewhere between Vilnius and Lvov. Germany has never stretched as far east as to such a middle of Europe. /M.L.

Ruhrjung or 212.181.86.76: This is ridiculous. Russia is culturally not European, and rarely included in such a context. Pure geographism is not relevant here. Germany is widely considered to be in the middle or central of Europe. That's why all English-language encyclopedias states it is a part of Central Europe. You will not be able to find many people in the English world who believe Lvov is the centre of Europe.
 * If you don't consider Ukraina, Belarus and Russia (West of Ural) to belong to Europe, what does it then belong to? /Tuomas 14:11, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

As for the European Union, I'm now pretty tired of telling you this: We don't need all these details on the European Coal and Steel Community in the introduction. "Germany is a founding member of the European Union" is correct in either case. It is irrelevant that Saarland or the Eastern states had not joined the Federal Republic of Germany (which the article is actually about!) in 1951, when the predecessor of the Union was founded. The important is that contemporary Germany  is a member of the EU, and just like France, it's worth to mention that it is a founding one (the "fifth republic" was not a founding member either, however, the state called the French Republic was). Elizabeth A

Your discussion on France is far off the mark. The important difference is that Germany until 1991 was divided, and references to German states before 1991 are to be disambiguated unless it from the context is obvious how to interpret a particular statement. Wikipedia policy is: state the obvious!

If you take a look at the recent edit history of this page, you can see that your sentence on the founding of EU can be improved in many different ways. In your wording, it's either trivial or false. The Union was founded after the Maastricht treaty of 1992, but that's irrelevant for the reader. What's important was the founding in 1951, and how the integration of (West) Germany in the economically and politically Free World was to the advantage of both the Germans and their neighbors. That founding was not of EU, and not by "Germany" but by its Western part. Of course you are, in a legalist interpretation, right in arguing that the Federal Republic in 1991 was given full sovereignty at the same time as it grew eastwards. But before that, East Germany was also Germany. You would for sure have saved a lot of both your energy, and that of other contributors, if you had considered these improvements.

By clinging on to the wording that "Germany" and not the Federal Republic was a founding member of EU, you put yourself and Wikipedia in that political camp that question the legality of East Germany and of Willy Brandt's Ostpolitik. And that is exactly what Wikipedia must avoid. /Tuomas 14:11, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Once more time: The article is actually dealing with the Federal Republic of Germany. Not the German Democratic Republic. The important, really, is that contemporary Germany IS a member of the union, not who WAS what and founded what in 1951. "Germany" refers to the subject of the article: The Federal Republic of Germany, the only state in the world called Germany for short now, which is a member of the EU and which was one of the six founding members of the Union's predecessor — and which also was one of the founding members of the Union in 1992. My point is that the state which the article is dealing with IS a member, and that the very same state was one of the founding members. The annexation of the territory of the former German Democratic Republic did not mean that a new state was created. The same applies to Saarland. Or to the United States, whenever a new state joined it.

We could however change "Germany" to "it" (like the French one), to avoid the word Germany, although it refers primarily to present-day Germany as a member of the union. Elizabeth A

Today, there is only one Germany. Nobody says anything else. But in 1951 there were two. Except according to some people on the political right wing. Regardless how you think of it, Germany of today was only partly a founding member of EU in 1951. And that part has a specific name and a relevant Wikipedia article. Namely: West Germany. My question is: Why do you so strongly oppose the reference to West Germany (at this place)?

This discussion get me to believe that there ought to be two different articles. One for Germany, which has changed shape and borders zillions of times during history, and been split and (partly) re-united and then split again and (again) re-united. But that will not be so. Instead editors of the article must recognize that Germany and The Federal Republic of Germany are no exact synonyms./Tuomas 15:21, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

In fact, there were three German states in 1951 (or five if you count Austria and Switzerland). You are correct that Saarland and the eastern states were not part of the state which founded the EU's predecessor when the foundation took place. But "Germany of today" is legally the same state as the founding one.

There has never been a state named "West Germany". That used to be a nickname for the Federal Republic of Germany, when the area of the state only included the western part of what it now includes. Note also that "Germany" (Deutschland) is an official short name for the Federal Republic of Germany, according to the German Foreign Ministry. "Germany" was also an official short name in 1951. Those "some people on the political right wing" were the political establishment of the Federal Republic of Germany until the 70'ies and their view was the official view of the state which is the subject of the article. Elizabeth A

I believe, in every European country, the people believe, their country is the "heart" of Europe. Once I lived in Austria. The wheater forescast maps showed a Austria-centred Europa. I guess it is the same in France or Poland. If Europa is the EU, then Germany may be located in the centre. If Europe is everything between Portugal and Ural, then it may be in the West. Therefore it is hard to say. Bavarians told me, they believe, Bavaria is the heart of Europa :-) Stern 14:27, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In the middle of Europe means in the middle of the European Union. After the expansion of EU, the new geographic middle is in Kleinmaischeid in Rhineland-Palatinate. O.A. 01 Jan 2005

Number of muslims and orthodox christians
I am astonished by the recently made downgrading of figures for muslims and orthodox christians in Germany. Would it maybe be appropriate to insert references (inside [...] ) to something like official statistics?

Meanwhile I restore the old figures, but please understand that I do this without having any knwoledge myself, mainly in order to provoke someone else to point us to the relevant and correct data. /Tuomas 14:59, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Deweaslification?
Any chance of firming up this sentence: His [Hitler's] policy of annexing neighbouring territories may have been one of several reasons that led to the outbreak of World War II...? Why not "was one of several reasons"? — Matt 03:45, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

East Germany?
In "History" I have changed the sentence "(East Germany, in West Germany referred to as Middle Germany)" because normally the average (Western) German said "East Germany" when the German Democratic Republic was meant. There were (and are) some people which are referring these regions as Middle Germany, but these are the persons which a propagating revisionism in fact of the Oder-Neisse-line (and they are a very small minority). Erlando 22:40, 19 Sep 2004 (CEST)

 * Mitteldeutschland means the landscape, see also MDR=mitteldeutscher Rundfunk (Central german broadcasting), "der Osten" the former GDR. Osten means simply east. Mitteldeutschland means Central Germany, so it sounds more euphemistic while Germans usually associate Easterness with decivilisation Western (= Western Europe, USA, "free world"), east = Russia, Former Eastern Block, Far East, the Huns.

It has nothing to do with the Oder-Neisse Line. Eastern is pejorative, so you rahter take Mitteldeutschland = Core/Central Germany, this is what the region traditionally was called, "der Osten" is more a propaganda phrase from the cold war and I guess it is more common in Western Germany while Mitteldeutschland is more common in the "eastern part". So the statement is in deed wrong, as it is quite the opposite. --145.254.160.195 14:17, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) André 1.5.2005

Oh, goodness, how did that piece of crap find its way back into the article? Good move on your part. john k 02:53, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't do much editing on pages concerning Germany, but this is the kind of extremism that now and then makes me break my principle. :-> The representatives for such extremism often feel suppressed by mainstream media and take their chance here. It will return, now and then, but that oughtn't be a problem as long as Wikipedians feel sufficiently engaged to revert it on sight. --Ruhrjung 21:45, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)

Costs of reunification
IMPOV the statement that reunification costs more than 1.5 trillion Euro shouldn't be included without explanation. This figure was critisised heavily on the ground that it just adds up all public payments to the eastern part of Germany, without taking into account that people of the new länder contribute to the funding with their tax payments as well (thus net costs are lower than the number indicated). Another reason why some (including the German minister of finance Stolpe) critisised this figure was that investment in infrastructure (although assumably higher in the east) does also take place in the western part of Germany. Those costs are not attributed to reunification either. Stolpe argues that "pure" reunification costs amount to 15 billion euro a year (in the period between 1990 to 2003). Gugganij 20:38, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

1.5 trillion Euro are the net-transfers to the eastern part calculated by Freie Universität Berlin. The statement of Manfred Stolpe (Bundesminister für Verkehr und Aufbau Ost/federal minister for  traffic and rebuild east) is 250 billion Euro. But this is only for infra-structure! The german government's statement is 1.25 trillion Euro for net-transfers. Now, additional, there are 100 billion Euro special-transfers every year. O.A. 17:45, 01 Jan 2005 (UTC)

best social security system?
I think some Scandinavians would refuse... and I think it should be mentioned, that there are reformations on the way.

I will add this.

Bye, --Erlando 15:56, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * "Best" is hardly NPOV, to begin with.

Holocaust denial?
Someone time and again deletes the phrase about the Holocaust from this article, claiming this is POV. The Holocaust - POV! If this continues I will put a 'disputed' message above this page and ask to take action against vandalism on this page. Why must the Holocaust - in which much of my family was murdered - be omitted from German history? It is after all one of the central events in WOII and German history. Gidonb 22:24, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Since this behavior is continued - before it was done without making clear what was deleted, now under the edit summary "rv pov pusher" - I have put a pov warning above the page. Gidonb 22:27, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I have reverted the vandalism, so there will be no pov message above this article. I understand that user Maria Stella's main activity on Wikipedia is deleting the Holocaust from the article Germany (see user contributions). I hope that this article remains without a pov warning and that negative facts from Germany's history will not be ommitted. There are enough positive facts about the country from 1945 to the present. Without the Holocaust this page will be unbalanced. Gidonb 22:42, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Not a question of balance - a question of fact and notability. Clearly should be in there. Rd232 16:56, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Both answers are correct. Until today even having the Holocaust in here seemed contested (see previous discussions). After I introduced it, time and again it is being deleted, transferred to aftermath or the proprietors are being changed from Germans to Nazis, and the country name from Germany to Nazi Germany. Not because of hard feelings but out of respect to my murdered and otherwise negatively affected family, and the millions and millions of Jews, disabled people, homosexuals, Roma and others, who were left defenseless as against the German brutalities, I will continue to make sure that these very central facts in Germany's history do not get erased from German history again. gidonb  00:54, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Today user heimdal removed all pictures which were related to the Second World War and the picture of the Berlin Wall, but left the picture I added of the Reichstag. Again, he changed Germany into "Nazis". I reverted his edits to this page and his one-sided portrayal of German history and politics. I understand some of the facts are uneasy to relate to for Germans - actually I am happy that some are ashamed of Germany's history - but the article and Wikipedia belong to all users. It should be factual, informative and unbiased by the embarrassment of some readers. gidonb 17:30, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I do understand gidonb's strong feelings about Germany - but considering "the Germans" in general inferior in his social-moral foodchain should not give reason to disrespect the necessity for a balanced presentation of the facts in this article (which is per definition not a personal one). Gidonb seems to be upset if the Holocaust section is repetitively deleted from this article. I do understand him and I do agree with him. But this cannot be blamed on "the Germans". To my knowledge (and correct me if I am wrong), the denial of the Holocaust is a crime in Germany - in contrary to the US where a substatial amount of Nazi-propaganda is shipped every minute to Europe. Germany at least seems to have recognized its responsibility. The image of the mass graves is inappropriate in this context but is is appropriate in the Holocaust article where everybody has access to it. I strongly recommend the culture of political correctness be respected in this public forum, and it is an undeniable fact that not all Gemans were Nazis and not all Nazis were Germans. If you want it or not - you find numerous examples, I would be happy to provide you with some if requested. However, bashing on the Germans by playing the mass-grave card makes me wonder if this is rather an phenomenon of the new germanophobia (www.germanystinks.com) in the US after the German government refused to believe the administration's interpretation of the intelligence data concerning "weapons of mass destruction". I wonder why gideonb thinks this central issue of German foreign policy is not worth mentioning here, as he is quick to delete it. Bush lied to "the Americans" - and they believed it. This time, "the Germans" were smarter, don't you agree? Before further bashing on the Germans you should also not forget - and this is not even mentioned in the article - that the contemporary Germany is a stong supporter and one of the few true friends of Israel in these days. Gideonb: please do not continue to play this shock-and-awe game; it really does not adress the right people here. Better focus on the white-supremacy idiots here in the US ... User: Victor Hugo 11:42 PM, 31 Jan 2005

 * It has been pointed out again and again that the Holocaust, Nazi Germany and WWII are all extensively covered on the pages of the Wikipedia, a fact that User:Gidonb somehow chooses to ignore. It's a vain undertaking trying to represent German history in its complexity through a couple of more or less arbitrarily chosen images of Nazi camp mass graves and heroic American liberators. The image of the Reichsgründung can therefore be nothing more than an introducing image to the article's History section. If you want to see more images of Nazi cruelty and of brave GI Joe, you'll have to follow the links to the respective articles on the Third Reich and the war. And yes, you do need to make a subtle distinction between "Germany" on the one hand and "the Nazis" on the other, in order to avoid simplistic allegations of German collective guilt. Personally I wouldn't even dream of adding images of slavery in the US southern states, of massacres of native Indians committed by white settlers during the colonization of North America, of Hiroshima victims and of Vietnamese children scarred by napalm bombs to the United States article, because (a) I wouldn't want to offend the feelings of my fellow American Wikipedians, and (b) I'm far from being the rude insensitive boor as which User:Gidonb has presented himself. Heimdal 11:45, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The following threat was deleted by Heimdal from his own talk page, after he logged out of from his own account. This course of action can be seen in his history. I will place the discussion here as they shut additional light on his harsh language (see also above) and continous vandalism to the page Germany. I seem not to be alone in having a hard time cooperating with him. He deletes facts from the page which is related to the holocaust and adds incorrect information. I did try to talk with the person, but it was to no avail. gidonb 20:46, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

First of all, welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you will enjoy yourself and make a positive contribution to the ongoing work on this 'democratic' encyclopedia. Second, I regret the fact that you keep on deleting the WWII and Cold War images from Wikpedia page Germany. You left my contribution of the Reichtstag picture, but encyclopedia articles about Germany should not only contain pleasant facts and picture materials. The history of Germany, as of most countries, is a mixed bag and 12 million people murdered by German genocides just 60-65 years ago deserve sufficient mentioning. The same applies for the Cold War period, which was even more recent. Wikipedia and its articles belong to all users. I hope that our future cooperation will be more fruitful! Regards, gidonb 19:13, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hello Gidonb,

I removed your added images to the History section of the Germany article because I think that it's a vain undertaking to try to represent German history in all its complexity through a couple of more or less arbitrarily chosen pictures of Nazi camp atrocities and heroic American liberators. Furthermore, I think that all major countries, not only Germany, have their skeletons in the cupboard. The mass killings perpetrated by the Stalin regime in the Soviet Union, the crimes committed by the Japanese in China and elsewhere during WWII, even the massacre of native Americans by white settlers during the colonization of North America are only a few examples. Perhaps the Germans have just been more sincere than others at acknowledging their own skeletons. Feel free to add your images of Nazi camps and WWII to the respective articles on the Holocaust, Nazi Germany and the war. These subjects are all extensively covered in the Wikipedia. As regards the History section of the Germany article, one picture about a major event of German history, such as the Reichsgründung, should be enough. Heimdal 10:57, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I undid your repetitive removal and altering of images and facts on the Germany page. The genocides commited by Germany between 1941 and 1945 are central enough to be included in the main article, including picture material taken in today's Germany. Also, the Roma people include many tribes, among them Roma and Sinti tribes. You relate to facts in the European colonialization of North America, Japanese and Chinese history and I strongly encourage you to write about these and to make them better known throughout Wikipedia. gidonb 13:48, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Bonn also seat of government
I think there is a mistake in de "infobox Germany" because - as far as I know - Bonn ("Bundesstadt Bonn" = "Federal City/Town Bonn") is still also seat of government. There are more federal offices and workers in Bonn than in the new capital Berlin. And a lot of embassies are also still in Bonn.
 * Bonn is still the first seat of the Department of Defense (Bundesverteidigungsministerium) which is part of the government. --Pixelfire 07:37, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * But the infobox says "capital" - can a country have two capitals? On the official German site there's no mention of Bonn: www.deutschland.de Saintswithin 12:44, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Berlin is capital of Germany. There was a short period after the reunification, when Berlin was declared capial, but the government in fact was still situated in Bonn. This was because the infrastucture and facilities needed for the government to actually move to Berlin first had to be build and established first. But until now, almost all of the important parts of the government like the Bundestag (parliament), the Bundeskanzleramt and most of the ministeries are situated in Berlin. Some lesser organisations of government remained in Bonn mainly because it would have been a massive blow to the local economy if they where entirely removed - and maybe because of the high costs for moving. But nevertheless Berlin is the only capital.--80.135.241.129 14:33, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Victims - references
Just in case, the sources for the number of victims are and  (BSE). Paranoid 02:42, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Infobox
Someone removed the template:germany infobox. Please put it back, thanks.--Jerryseinfeld 22:58, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Please see the Edit summaries of the page history, that says:
 * See Village_pump_(miscellaneous)
 * ...where, it turns out, User:Jerryseinfeld has already been.
 * Troll! ;-(
 * --Ruhrjung 04:44, 2005 Jan 4 (UTC)

Indigene people
Indigene People such as the Frisians, Sinti and sorbs and indegene minority languages as low German, sorbian, saterfrisian, and jiddish shall get mentioned. According to the EU minority language charter these languages shall get mentioned. Frisians regard themselves as cultural non-German.

title: Talk:Germany/Archive 2


text:
Sengcan

Jianzhi Sengcan (Pīnyīn: Jiànzhì Sēngcàn; Wade–Giles: Chien-chih Seng-ts'an; Rōmaji: Kanchi Sōsan) is known as the Third Chinese Patriarch of Chán after Bodhidharma and thirtieth Patriarch after Siddhārtha Gautama Buddha.

He is considered to be the Dharma successor of the second Chinese Patriarch, Dazu Huike (Chinese: 大祖慧可; Pīnyīn: Dàzǔ Huìkě; Wade–Giles: Ta-tsu Hui-k’o; Rōmaji: Taiso Eka). Sengcan is best known as the putative author of the famous Chan poem, Xinxin Ming (Chinese: 信心銘; Pīnyīn: Xìnxīn Míng; Wade–Giles: Hsin-hsin Ming), the title of which means "Inscription on Faith in Mind".

Biography
The year and place of Sengcan's birth is unknown, as is his family name.

Huike
It is said that Sengcan (old spelling: Tsang Tsan) was over forty years old when he first met Huike in 536 and that he stayed with his teacher for six years. (Dumoulin, p 97) It was Huike who gave him the name Sengcan (“Gem Monk”).

The Transmission of the Lamp entry on Sengcan begins with a koan-like encounter with Huike:
 * Sengcan: I am riddled with sickness. Please absolve me of my sin.
 * Huike: Bring your sin here and I will absolve you.
 * Sengcan (after a long pause): When I look for my sin, I cannot find it.
 * Huike: I have absolved you. You should live by the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha.

There are discrepancies about how long Sengcan stayed with Huike. The Transmission of the Lamp records that he “attended Huike for two years” after which Huike passed on the robe of Bodhidharma and Bodhidharma's Dharma (generally considered to be the Lankavatara Sutra), making him the Third Patriarch of Chan.

According to Dumoulin, in 574 the accounts say that he fled with Huike to the mountains due to the Buddhist persecution underway at that time. However, the Lamp records claim that after giving Sengcan Dharma transmission, Huike warned Sengcan to live in the mountains and “Wait for the time when you can transmit the Dharma to someone else.” as a prediction made to Bodhidharma (Huike's teacher) by Prajnadhara, the twenty-seventh Chan ancestor in India, foretold of a coming calamity.

After receiving transmission, Sengcan lived in hiding on Wangong Mountain in Yixian and then on Sikong Mountain in southwestern Anhui. Thereafter, for ten years he wandered with no fixed abode.

Daoxin
He met Daoxin, (580-651) a novice monk of just fourteen, in 592. Daoxin attended Sengcan for nine years and received Dharma transmission when he was still in his early twenties.

Subsequently, Sengcan spent two years at Mount Luofu (Lo-fu shan, northeast of Kung-tung (Canton)) before returning to Wangong Mountain. He died sitting under a tree before a Dharma assembly in 606.

Dumoulin notes that a Chinese official, Li Ch’ang found Sengcan's grave in Shu-chou in 745 or 746.

Sengcan received the honorary title Jianzhi 鑑智 (“Mirror Wisdom”) from the Tang dynasty emperor Xuan Zong.

Teachings
Sengcan, like Bodhidharma and Huike before him, was reputed to be a devotee and specialist in the study of the Lankavatara Sutra, which taught the elimination of all duality and the “forgetting of words and thoughts”, stressing the contemplation of wisdom.

However, McRae describes the link between Bodhidharma (and therefore Sengcan) and the Lankavatara Sutra as “superficial”. The link between this sutra and the “Bodhidharma school” is provided in Tao-hsuan's Further Biographies of Eminent Monks where, in the biography of Fa-ch’ung he “stresses that Hui-k’o was the first to grasp the essence of the Lankavatara Sutra” and includes Sengcan as one who “discoursed on but did not write about the profound message of the Lankavatara Sutra. Due to the lack of authentic evidence, comments on Sengcan's teachings are speculative.

Writings
Although Sengcan has traditionally been honored as the author of the Xinxin Ming (W-G:Hsin-hsin Ming, "Faith in Mind"), most modern scholars dismiss this as improbable.

Limited sources
The historical record of Sengcan is extremely limited. Of all the Chan patriarchs, Sengcan is the most ambiguous and the least known: "We have no certain information regarding Seng-ts’an. The course of his life lies in darkness.”"

Further Biographies of Eminent Monks
The earliest recorded note naming Sengcan is in Further Biographies of Eminent Monks (645) (Japanese, Zoku kosoden; Pinyin, Xu gaoseng zhuan) by Daoxuan (?- 667) where Sengcan is named, immediately after Huike’s name, as one of seven disciples of Huike in a biographical entry of the Lankavatara sutra master, Fa-ch’ung (587-665) No further information is given.

It was not until the Records of the Transmission of the Dharma-treasure (Sh’uan fa-pao chi), compiled about 710 and drawing on the stories in the Further Biographies of Eminent Monks, that a teaching “lineage” for Chan was created. Some have speculated that it was merely the fact that Sengcan's name immediately followed Huike's name in the latter work that led to him being named as the Third Patriarch of Chan.

Transmission of the Lamp
Therefore, the biography that follows is garnered largely from traditional biographies of Sengcan, mainly the Transmission of the Lamp.

Most of what is known about his life comes from the Wudeng Huiyuan (Compendium of Five Lamps), compiled in the early 13th century by the monk Puji at Lingyin Temple in Hangzhou. The first of the five records in the compendium is a text commonly referred to as the Transmission of the Lamp and it is from this text that most of the information about Sengcan is garnered.

However, it should be kept in mind that most modern scholars have some doubts about the historical accuracy of the Lamp records.

title: Sengcan