text:
Wikipedia:Help desk/Archive 13

Browser statistic
What about the browser statistic at Wikipedia, which browser is most used among us,Wkipedians? --ThomasK 08:42, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * See Browsers, unfortunately the statistics are from February 2004 - an update would indeed be nice :) -- Ferkelparade π 20:27, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OWU; Feeling very frustrated
I'm feeling very frustrated and I hope someone can help me. Let me say that I admit that I have found myself in the midst of a revert war that I should have never entered into; I should have figured out a better tact, but I didn’t and I now I’m stuck.

The entry is question is for Ohio Wesleyan University and the problem is happening with one individual, using one Wiki-user name and various IP addresses to include information that is robbing the entry of its NPOV. By making edits signed in and not signed in, the contributor is attempting to make it appear that more then one person is involved. One I.P. address is an OWU based I.P. address and I’m assuming that the other I.P. is the one that this person uses while at home on break.

Problems with the listed began in July of this year -- before I became involved with the article, which was in September under my user name of “Stude62”. Prior to that time, there have been requests, and attempts to return the document to a NPOV state, however the edits are quickly reverted.

These edits, have resulted in an article that isn’t reliable, isn’t objective and isn’t documented; references are made to publications and outside companies, but date, issue, vol. and page numbers are not included and it makes it very hard to proof the material. In place of properly documented references, superlatives were used ad nauseam.

My goal when I began working on the article was to remove its subjectivity and return the article to a NPOV state that was reliable and informative. I’m not a great writer, but I could see how sentences could be rearranged to place like topics together, and how restructuring that rewording sentences and paragraphs could reduce the wordiness of the article. In a strictly word to word comparison, this article out strips articles for other like school lists with its peer colleges by about 3to1 and that’s even without addressing the issue of content, which the OWU article is seriously lacking.

Along the lines of factual content, the article is lacking in good solid factual content. It’s my contention that the “protector” of the article is more concerned with the school at looking impressive in a way that makes the “protector” look impressive. The school’s credentials are meritorious, and should be recognized in manner in which the credentials speak for themselves, not in such a way that they appear "affected" as they do within the article.

In addition to my attempts to steer the article in the right direction, others have tried, however when suggestions are made, the “protector” immediately questions them, even when suggestions are outlined in the wiki style manual.

The “protector” is also attempting to rewrite the history of OWU without knowing anything about the history that they are trying to rewrite. In its place, the protector is basing his/her history on their perception, not fact.

Yesterday, I contacted the University and have begun to work with the archives and media relations department on formulating a factual rewrite on the article. But I am concerned about the “protector’s” continued ability to vandalize this article based on his/her perceptions trumping reality.

Can anyone help or recommend another user who is expirienced in deal with this type of "protector"?

"[[user: stude62"]] 16:33, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * It looks as if you could safely add an at the head of the article, and list it on Requests for comment.  These would be the first two steps to getting other people involved.  Noisy | Talk 18:43, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

Re: OWU; Feeling very frustrated
I am the user he is referring to. I do not appreciate the way Stude62 is working on this, but I will not discuss this as the objective is to come up with a solution. Could you be specific when you talk about "affected language" on the Wesleyan page? Did you discuss any specific words or facts that bothered you in the discussion page? If you did, I will work with you and change them if they are not NPOV. Absolutely. Instead, you keep complaining on various sites in a very general language lacking ANY specific examples. You didn't even bother discussing it on the Wesleyan's page.

Like an hour ago you made a complete overhaul of the article. I liked. Kept it. What's the problem? I only made a few changes that made the facts consistent with the school's facts. (e.g. Methodist Episc. Church). In fact, that's what you told us you heard from the President's Office. I pointed you to a link as well. I don't know what else to say or how to convince you.

FYI, I sign my contributions. :)

Rananim 21:48, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Rananim-

If you want to talk about this, please do so through an email. I am seeking help from the Wiki Community - let the system work."[[user: stude62"]] 01:59, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Helpdesk most commonly deals with technical problems, not editorial disputes. There is a comprehensive process for dispute resolution discussed at Dispute resolution - you guys are probably best advised to go with mediation if you can't work things out yourselves. -- John Fader 02:20, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Counting contributions
Is there any automatic way within WP to count the contributions I have made, or do I just have to open my contribution history and count them all myself? --Cynical 20:14, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * See List of Wikipedians by number of edits. The list will only show your number of edits when you're in the top 1000 list, but there's also a link to a CSV file on that page that contains all users and their editcounts. Note that both the list and the csv are usually quite out of date; there used to be a tool provided by Kate here that gave you your up-to-date edit count, but Kate's tools seem to be gone for good -- Ferkelparade π 20:22, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Kate's still with us I'm happy to say, but the tools are gone for good. Luckily, there's an old version of the edit counter. --fvw *  08:11, 2005 Jan 9 (UTC)

 * Thanks all :)--Cynical 22:22, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How to write the perfect Revert Edit Summary?
Hi all!

When reverting a page to an earlier version, I'm adding an edit summary like: "Reverted edits by X to last version by Y". I must be blind, lacking sleep, or both, but I can't seem to do figure out how to make "X" appear as a link to X's contribution page.

I've looked at Editing FAQ, How to revert a page to an earlier version, Edit summary, m:Help:Edit summary and Edit summary legend, but found no answers.

(Yes, I am a semi-clueless Wikinewbie)

Thanks!--Plek 03:27, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Just use Username . The format you mentioned is generally used by admins using the automated rollback function, in most cases there's no need to be so verbose. For simple single-edit vandalisms, just putting "rv" or "rv vandalism" will do. If you're reverting non-vandalism, you'll want to explain why you're reverting in your edit summary (or put "rv: see talk" and explain things there). --fvw *  03:41, 2005 Jan 9 (UTC)

 * I geddit now. Thanks again en bedankt! ;-) --Plek 04:05, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

PDA Access
Is there an easy way to access Wikipedia via WML or in a low graphics version?

I spend a lot of time sitting and waiting!

IIRC there is a text only version that used to be linked to on the front page. Unfortunately, the address escapes my mind at the moment. Maybe a search for "text only" will get you a link the a text only main page? Mgm|(talk) 12:37, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but I'm afraid I couldn't get anything. This is a strange omission if it has been withdrawn. I use a P900 and I can get a great many sites on it, especially news ones.

If anyone has an idea about this, or a method of contacting the powers that be I would be very greatful.

Thanks again

 * Get an account, then go to Special:Preferences and experiment with Skins—try "MySkin" or "Nostalgia". Then log in to your account from your portable device.  Does that help? —Triskaideka 16:35, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That is a FINE idea, thanks very much.

Does editing destroy the original information on a page

 * 1) If a less knowledgable person replaces an excellent page does the original page disappear? If true this seems a serious problem.
 * 2) Are there backups to pages so the original, especially if better than the replacement, does not disappear.
 * 3) Does a sysopp check changes in articles - I think this would be a sensible thing.
 * 4) I realize that information on subjects can be checked by following up on the usual internet search engines. But, how can one count on the information if it is so easy to edit it?
 * 5) So far the information I find is excellant. What proceedures based on 1-4 protect existing articles?

I can be contacted at iatc-ourtown(at)earthlink.net

 * No, the information remains. See the "history" link on every page - it's possible to see and restore older versions
 * see 1
 * Lots of people check changes. Most new changes are checked as they're made, and generally all the previous authors of a page have it on their watchlist (which means they periodically review changes)
 * That's answered at Replies_to_common_objections
 * Again, see Replies_to_common_objections
 * Hope this helps. -- John Fader 20:01, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Links Database Error
Is there a limit to the number of completed links you can have one one page? I've been trying to add some new pages to "List of craters on the Moon", but every time I do so now it gives me a database error. However I am able to edit other pages just fine, so perhaps I hit some internal limit? The errors generally look like this:

A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: INSERT IGNORE INTO `links` (l_from,l_to) VALUES ('1378918','6416'), ('1378918','222867'),('1378918','50283'),('1378918','1187827'), ('1378918','497846'),('1378918','702219')  from within function "LinksUpdate::doUpdate". MySQL returned error "1213: Deadlock found when trying to get lock; Try restarting transaction (10.0.0.1)".

I tried multiple times and with more than one page, but keep getting an error. Thanks. — RJH 20:32, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I was able to edit those pages today, so perhaps it was just an interim problem with the database... — RJH 16:10, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Should there be an alphabetic index?
When reading old fashioned paper encyclopedias, I could browse by starting at a letter of the alphabet and going through articles in alphabetical order. I could be introduced to many topics I had never considered before. Is there something equivalent for Wikipedia besides the Random page?

 * You want Special:Allpages. Be warned, it's large. -- Cyrius|✎ 23:05, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Redirect-only text?
Is it possible to make text appear only after a redirect but not in the main article?

Example: Rockman redirects to Mega Man series, as it should. But Rockman is also the name of a line of guitar amps. Currently the disambiguation text for this problem is at the top of the Mega Man series page, but it's only useful if the user was redirected from Rockman.

 * This is not yet possible, but updates to this effect are considered. For now, you should add boilerplate to pages that could be redirected to, like this:
 * Rockman redirects here. Rockman is also a line of guitar amplifiers.
 * I don't know if there are templates for this; if there are, these should preferrably be used, because they can be automagically changed if/when the hiding solution is implemented. JRM 23:26, 2005 Jan 9 (UTC)

 * Then Rockman should be a disambig page, linking to Mega Man series and Rockman (guitar amp manufacturer), even if the latter doesn't exist.   — PhilHibbs | talk 11:37, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * That depends wholly on which use of "Rockman" is the most prominent, which I don't know and didn't take into account — I assumed the OP was more knowledgeable than me in stating "as it should". See Disambiguation; if this is primary-topic disambiguation, then adding a header is appropriate. See New York, New York, for example. Some googling turns up that "Rockman" is a trademark, and "Rockman Ace" is the name of a line of headphone amplifiers (not just guitar) from Dunlop Manufacturing, Inc., not a manufacturer in itself. So unless this line is so notable that it warrants its own article, which is doubtful, I propose
 * Rockman redirects here. Rockman Ace is the name of a line of instrument amplifiers made by Dunlop Manufacturing, Inc.
 * Or wording to that effect. A separate redirect from Rockman Ace to Dunlop Manufacturing, Inc. seems useful, too. And of course a note could be added to the Dunlop article itself. JRM 12:20, 2005 Jan 10 (UTC)

 * Rockman should absolutely not be a disambig page (and I've reverted edits to the article making it such). A 93-game franchise with a very large and active English-speaking community that uses the Japanese names mean someone is much more likely to want to know about the games vs an obscure line of musical equipment that stopped being produced 5 years ago (which is already mentioned at the top of the Mega Man series page). The only disambiguation that would make sense is differentiating between the different uses of "Rockman" within the metaseries itself. --Boco XLVII 14:05, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

ISBN Problems
WHAT on earth am I doing wrong in entering my ISBN's? I simply cannot figure it out. Here is exactly what I enter, and they never link up: ISBN 0300055366. Yes: I am positive that I am not dyslexing the numbers. Many thanks, allie 23:14, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Simple: don't link. Parser magic does this for you: ISBN 0-30-005536-6. JRM 23:21, 2005 Jan 9 (UTC)

URI and Relations of Articles.
We are the GNU project from TIFR. We downloaded the categorieslink table as you had directed us.We are not going to keep the articles with us but only the metadata.The metadata includes the keywords and the words that can identify the articles.For that we need the URIs of the various articles.Can you help on the same.Also we aim in creating varios relations between articles.Does WIKIPEDIA already have any such relations between the articles,if it has please give us some information on that too.

Thanking you, Sakecwiki Team(TIFR)

 * I'm not sure what you're asking for. Your questions suggest that you have an unfamiliarity with the overal design of the database. I suggest that you read the schema before trying to work with it. -- Cyrius|✎ 18:25, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Beyond the (rather basic, relational) database schema to which Cyrius refers, there really isn't any explicit metadata. Links are held in wikitext, and are only checked when an article is rendered into html (well, technically there is the "link table", but really it only serves to make "what links here" work, and a mediawiki system works perfectly well if you don't build the linktable).  Equally there are categories, but a category is just a special kind of link in an article (and one creates a category by linking to it).  There's no system of keywords, and there's not (really) a meaningful index. So really there isn't any more metadata to translate.  Bar a few weird things like redirects there is a 1:1 mapping between URIs and articles (technically that's not quite true: as spaces are turned into underscores, and some characters are resolved in the usual http way, the mapping is really surjective, but trivially so).  So, to conclude, I think that if you need more detailed information about how articles link and are categorised then the only way is some brute-force spider/digester thing; and if you're going to run such a thing, please do it on a local copy of the wikipedia articlespace, not the (congested) real site. Information about downloading the database is at Database download. -- John Fader 01:32, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Error messages
I have been having a devil of a time. I can preview edits and new articles just fine, but when attempting to save page, it goes absymally slowly and (now) usually dosn't work. I sit there waiting ages for the page to load, only to get an error message. I haven't changed my computer and this is a recent problem. The messages are (sorry, it's a bit long):

Database error From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: INSERT IGNORE INTO `links` (l_from,l_to) VALUES ('1383433','279684'),('1383433','5355'),('1383433','10646'),('1383433','1380897'),('1383433','49404'),('1383433','555643'),('1383433','26437'),('1383433','50283'),('1383433','1187827'),('1383433','497846'),('1383433','702219') from within function "LinksUpdate::doUpdate". MySQL returned error "1213: Deadlock found when trying to get lock; Try restarting transaction (10.0.0.1)". Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cook_%28profession%29"

OR:

Sorry- we have a problem... The wikimedia web server didn't return any response to your request. To get information on what's going on you can visit #wikipedia. An "offsite" status page is hosted on OpenFacts.

Generated Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:54:57 GMT by wikipedia.org (squid/2.5.STABLE4-20040219)

Thanks Quill 22:46, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I often get them too. Mostly when editing sub-pages of VfD or the Reference desk. Alphax (t) (c) (e) 07:50, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

Commons image with duplicate Wikipedia name
I have uploaded an image to the Wikimedia Commons that has the same name as an image on the Wikipedia. What is the preferred method of adding this image to an article? I could see changing the name of one or the other but I'm guessing there is a better way.

Thanks - Trick 22:48, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I think images that have been moved to Commons should be deleted, that way the commons version will be used. I'm not sure if they're speedy deleteable or if they need to be IfDed though, I seem to recall there being an attempt to get them speediable anyway. --fvw *  23:12, 2005 Jan 10 (UTC)
 * This isn't the same image but just an image with a different name. - Trick 23:25, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, in that case why don't you upload it using a different name? I think local images will always mask commons images and that's non-overridable. Even if it was, it would be rather confusing I think, changing the name would seem wise. --fvw *  23:29, 2005 Jan 10 (UTC)
 * That was my first thought but I thought maybe there was a preferred method. I'll go ahead and do that. Thanks! - Trick 23:40, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Please can you tell me where to read how images are picked up from Commons. Will an undecorated image link look on Commons then? Peter Hitchmough 06:48, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not an encyclopedia!!!
How can you say you are an on-line encyclopedia? An encyclopedia is based on fact-not liberal opinions such as stated on the tsunami article. My daughter is doing a research paper on the tsunami and pulled up your site. Thank God she asked me about it before she put in her report that the earthquake that caused the tsunami was caused by a hydrogen bomb being tested in the Indian Ocean-by the Busch administration!!! Her teachers would have that she was a complete idiot!! If you want to post crap like that in your on-line site ,call it something else besides an encyclopedia. I have instructed my daughter never to go to your site again. Your site is nothing more than a glorified chat-room.

 * Your daughter viewed a vandalized version of the article which was in existence for six minutes before being repaired by one of our more productive contributors. This is, unfortunately, the major flaw in Wikipedia's policy of allowing any and all comers to edit.

 * While I thank you for the reminder of the danger of vandals (which some of us seem to have forgotten), perhaps you should consider taking a more productive approach to voicing your concerns in the future. -- Cyrius|✎ 01:12, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I think this was an entirely reasonable reaction by someone who had not encountered Wikipedia before. Maybe this problem will be alleviated when the mythical "Wikipedia 1.0" gets produced. What does surprise me, though, that "liberal" is now synonymous with "lying". I thought it meant "non-oppressive", essentially the opposite to "fascist". Maybe this is a U.S./British English difference.   — PhilHibbs | talk 11:42, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Agree that reaction was more-or-less reasonable. I think that "liberal" has taken on meaning of "belief that conservatives are evil".  Surprised that someone who think that wikipedia is a glorified chat room took the time to leave a detailed message. Morris 12:51, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

Flagging POV articles
Really not sure where to ask/mention this...

I ran across Henry Morgenthau, Sr. today (whilst looking for his son). Almost all of the article deals heavily with the contentious issue of the Armenian Genocide and was written by an anonymous IP whose other edits were to pages about that same topic.

I don't know anything in particular about the topic ("many died, was messy, popular with revisionists"), but I do know that what's there is contentious, looks fairly one-sided and vituperative (...tendency toward fabrication...nonsensical tales of brutality...), and therefore doesn't seem entirely trustworthy; it reads as heavily PoV. So, I would edit it, neutralise it a bit. Unfortunately, for all I know he was as bad as the article portrays him, and I have very little in the way of reference material here to work from. What's the best way to flag this for the attention of people with some knowledge of the topic?

Thanks, and apologies for a stupid question. Shimgray 00:56, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * (This is my opinion) I would add some more information about what he did before and after that episode, and certainly put in a reference to his more famous son (who was the secretary of the treasury under FDR). Basicly what is there now is a long paragraph, making the points that the guy was (a) racist against the Turks (BTW: was the word "Turk" used back then?), and (b) for that reason fabricated information, and helped push America into the war on the British side.  I agree with you that some of the article could be worded differently, in a more neutral manner, but the more interesting question (to me) is: Were the reports of genocide accurate?  I believe that people currently believe that things (in general) were more or less as bad as Morgenthau said.  Therefore, I agree with you (User:Shimgray).  I would write a neutral article and say Morgenthau did this, did that, and not get into whethor the dispatches were true or false or if he believed them or not.  My impression is that he may have been racist, his reports were based on what other people saw, and may not have been 100% correct, but that the gist of what he said, and the tone did accurately reflect what was happening. Morris 05:30, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, I've given him an actual biography section and crossreferenced Morgenthau Jr. (did you know he was second-in-line to the Presidency for a week? Random trivia of the day...) - but this big contentious section is still there. If it was like this I don't want to rip it out and put in a few mild comments, but I really don't want to use internet sources alone to figure out if it was, for obvious reasons... well, I'll have a go at rephrasing some of it. It is pretty screedish as-is, even if accurate. Shimgray 01:51, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Merging edits by same user?
Is it possible to merge all back-to-back edits to an article by the same user into a single edit for the purposes of the history and diffs? If not, why not, and if so, why is this process not automated? --Boco XLVII 04:50, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * It isn't, and I don't think I've heard anyone express an interest in doing so. What would you do with the edit summaries? -- Cyrius|✎ 05:52, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * That was the only problem I could forsee that isn't easily solved. The other problem I thought of would be a single user contributing an entire article over multiple days, etc., in which case the merging would only happen on edits made within a certain time of each other (such as a 2-hour span). Of course a workaround for the first (that would greatly undermine its usefulness) would be to only merge edits with no summaries into edits with summaries... whatever. It was just an idea to decrease history versions on server-side and increase the usefulness of diffs. --Boco XLVII 14:57, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * It would work for minor edits with no edit summary, but for those of us who decide to PD them... Alphax (t) (c) (e) 07:53, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

Multiple-person edit war - where to report/request mediation?
I can't be the only who noticed the edit-war over whether country articles are to use infobox templates or not. Where do I report this time-consuming back-and-forth-editting and request mediation of the differing opinions? As it seems, the different side where not able to come to a compromise or consensus in their discussion of the matter themselves Nightstallion 05:27, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * You can start at Requests for comments to get opinions from a greater group of editors. You can ask for the page to be protected and you can report editors for breaking the Three revert rule. Most of it is unnecessary as most editors are aware of the problem. You may want to try to speak to both parties seperately and try to see if you can come up with a compromise both find acceptable. 131.211.210.157 09:01, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Transwiki links
Will transwiki (or crosswiki, whichever they're called) work on any wiki running the Mediawiki software? Also, can crosswiki redirects be made? Thanks, Alphax (t) (c) (e) 07:46, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * For example, you can have interlanguage links like or Main page. Does this work with any MediaWiki Wiki? Alphax (t) (c) (e) 13:36, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, it's part of the software, so it will work on any copy of that software that has been configured to use it; oh, and they're neither "transwiki" nor "crosswiki", but "InterWiki". Have a look at meta:Help:Interwiki links and its linked pages for what may or may not be a helpful description of how this feature works. As for interwiki redirects, you can create them (and they will work as redirects) but it's generally considered a rather Bad Idea because the software currently makes no special considerations about the link, so you end up magically at the target page with no pointer back. Thus in order to edit such a redirect you have to manually work out what the URL would need to be to access it ("...&redirect=no"); which is more than a little awkward, and arguably a bug. - IMSoP 18:39, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * So could I redirect my user and talk pages at meta to the ones here? Or would that be bad style? Alphax (t) (c) (e) 09:30, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * You can redirect to any page on any wiki listed on the Interwiki map, but it's a bad idea since it's very confusing for users to be thrown onto a different wiki with no idea they're on a different wiki and no idea how to get back. Try a soft redirect instead. Angela. 22:46, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

How to add a (foot)note
How do I add a cross-referring, i.e. clickable (foot)note ? Double-parenthesizing notenumbers does not seem to work. David de Cooman 11:32, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Want numbers? Or do you prefer text like this: (Lupo 2005) ?

 * Clicking the link should bring you back.
 * (Lupo 2005) : Just a random statement made by Lupo 11:40, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks awfully for your pertinent advice! David de Cooman 12:00, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Can I change my User Name?
I have some  history with Wikis. I registered with a CamelCase user name. Is there any chance I can change it so I don't lose history etc?

Diz 12:45, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * You can sign up with a new user name. For re-attributing your edits, see above. Lupo 12:50, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks very much Lupo, Diz

 * Even better, there is an approved process: Changing_username which will achieve exactly what I need. Diz

Links to discussion forums
Do we have a policy guideline on whether links to discussion forums are appropriate? A persistent anon keeps re-adding a links to a couple of hir forums to certain music articles. The forums have less than 100 users each, and most posts are by the forum owner. If there were to be links to discussion forums for these bands at all, there are far more notable ones. I've removed them about half a dozen times, but they're always back within a week or two, usually from a different IP address.

I believe that these sorts of links are discouraged, unless the forum itself is notable enough to be the subject of the article, or are a key source of understanding (certain technology topics, perhaps). However, I have scoured the policy, faq, and help pages for a guideline to which I could refer the anon, and I find nothing about this other than "no advertising or self promotion", and since these are not commercial sites, s/he is not convinced.

Is there a policy page on forum links that I've missed? If not, should this be specifically added? I'd hate to look like I'm "making up" policy in order to remove this person's link, so I would like some input from others on the issue. Catherine\talk 17:56, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * What Wikipedia is not sort of applies. I generally go by "If it isn't the only or foremost (by a large margin)" site of its kind, we don't want a link, wikipedia is not a web directory. (That's just for forums and the like: I judge sites with "actual content" by whether the site gives useful information for someone who's read the wikipedia articles on the subject matter and wants to know more. And for references of stuff said in the wikipedia article ofcourse). --fvw *  18:11, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC)

 * It's irrelevant whether the subject of a link is commercial or not. An ad is still an ad, self-promotion is still self-promotion.  Ads for non-profits, charities, political groups, religions, open-source software projects or angelfire homepages all still fall squarely under the advertising and self promotion rule, and you were quite right to remove them.  Given that you've told him this, and advised him of the rule he's breaking, then (should he return to doing this) he doesn't need any warnings before receiving a mass revert and block. -- John Fader 20:33, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Link on Main Page to Allpages
How can request a link to Special:Allpages on the Main Page? I consider it superior to the Quick index Lee S. Svoboda 18:09, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) Your best bet is discussing it at Talk:Main Page. Mgm|(talk) 09:33, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

VfD for page that redirects
I want to nominate Andrew Babcock for deletion. This page was just created today by 216.114.70.163. There is no content on Andrew Babcock, it simply redirects to an unrelated page, which is itself a redirect.

How do I place the VfD notice on the Andrew Babcock page without being redirected and prevented from doing so? Johntex 18:51, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * There's a separate page for deleting redirects: Redirects for Deletion (also known as WP:RFD). --fvw *  18:57, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC)

Preferred form: G K Chesterton or G.K.Chesterton
Modern usage tends to style a name like this: G K Chesterton, but traditionally it would be styled like this: G. K. Chesterton.

As G K Chesterton was very much known by his initials, I made a redirect from G K Chesterton to G. K. Chesterton where an article already existed. Conversely, the entry for A E Housman has no periods in its article name. Which style is preferred? Where can I read about this on the site?

Diz 19:13, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The correct style is G. K. Cesterton. See Naming conventions (common names)

Lee S. Svoboda 22:21, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Acceptable to withdraw a nomination for VfD?
I submitted IPod shuffle to VfD because I feel that this is not a note-worthy device, and that the article is no better than an advertisement. However, the entry has been on VfD for less than a day and it has gotten 11 votes to keep, 1 vote to merge and redirect, and no votes to delete other than my own. It seems there will be a clear consensus to keep this article. Therefore, I would like to withdraw my nomination for VfD and remove the VfD tag from the article. However, other than noting that these tags should not be removed while the issue is "under consideration", the policy on article deletion is silent on this issue. Is it acceptable for me to withdraw my candidate for VfD, given that the consensus opinion seems to be to keep the article? Johntex 00:34, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * It used to be acceptable for the submitter to withdraw it so long as there were no delete votes. But now people are being thorough about keeping the VfD votes around afterward, and so removing the vote wholesale will upset their methodical scheme (to the extent that they'll get cross and restore it).  There's no reason why you can't strike out your original nomination (just what you wrote, not  others' votes) and add a note saying you'd like to retract your nomination.  This way it will stay on VfD nominally, but in practice will not receive further consideration. -- John Fader 00:52, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Seems as though wikipedia disallows iframe tags. Is this correct? If so, why? I'd like to try and use the tag so I can display external content on my user page. Is there another way one can do this?--Will2k 07:15, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * The mediawiki software (the software that powers Wikipedia) disallows all but a tiny handful of html tags. Iframe is particularly dangerous because while it lets you display external content on your user page, there's nothing stopping somsone from doing the same in articles to show external content (this would be *extremely bad*). So, to answer your question, no, there is no way to do it. In fact, if there was a workaround of some sort, the devs would probably shut it down very quickly. You'll just have to make due with the tools you have - variables, templates, images, tables, symbols, 'etc. →Raul654 07:39, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

Link from a website
Hi there,

I am a newcomer to the Wikipedia and I am amazed by the contents of the site. I have an existing site on China Arts & Crafts where I wish to include links to Wikipedia, on subjects such as History, Culture, Nationality of China in Chinese and English as reference materials to readers. But the links did not work for Chinese language. I guess it must be problem of the copyright. How can I bypass this since it is a free encyclopia. Please anyone help me and my ID to Wikipedia is 14546 and my name is Larry Chan with email at: larrychan@email.com.

Larry Chan

 * Hi Larry. I'm afraid I don't understand exactly what the problem is.  Could you be more specific, or perhaps show us examples?  In what way do the links not work—what happens when you try to follow them?  Do they fail to work for all users, or just some?  What pages are you trying to link to?  How are you coding the links?  Are you trying to link to the English or Chinese Wikipedia, and were you aware of the differences in URLs between the two?  Thanks—Triskaideka 22:05, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

STS-61-C (section) edit
"Columbia finally landed at Edwards AFB at 5:59 a.m. PST, on Jan. 18. Mission elapsed time was 6 days, 2 hours, 3 minutes, 51 seconds.

After numerous delays Columbia returned to orbit on January 12, 1986. The primary mission was to deploy a geosynchronous KU-1 communications satellite for RCA Americom. A variety of other experiments were also performed successfully including some using the Materials Science Laboratory-2. This was the first flight utilizing NASA's Get Away Special canisters. Perhaps, the mission is most notable for carrying one of only three sitting congressmen into space, John Glenn and Jake Garn being the others."

Could someone more capable than myself, please tell me if the above should be rewritten. It seems confusing to me. I could understand this last paragraph being placed closer to the beginning of the article, but not at the end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STS-61-C

 * You're probably right. If you look at this diff it seems that someone inserted a new description of the mission in front of the existing description, instead of rewriting/expanding the existing one as they probably should have done. —Triskaideka 19:26, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

editing
vertical lines appear often in texts to edit; i cant find a way to do this on my keyboard; how is it done?
 * Assuming you mean the pipe symbol |, its location differs widely between keyboard layouts. What keyboard layout are you using? On US keyboards, it should be located right next to your z key, other languages might differ somewhat (on German keyboards, for example, it's located on the same key but only accessible through the ALT-GR key). If all else fails, you can input special characters via their ASCII code by holding down the left ALT key then typing the ASCII code on the num pad (for the pipe, type 0124). -- Ferkelparade π 11:47, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * My keyboard has it right above the backslash on the same key. Shift+\ should the trick if you have the same keyboard I do. Mgm|(talk) 11:49, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, if you see a symbol you want to use (and there are generally at least 100 not on your keyboard but available), just copy and paste it into your own message. Notinasnaid 11:43, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Merge Oldham with Oldham (borough)
My home town Oldham has a second page Oldham_(borough). This appears to be part of a well organised "project" of English boroughs and administrative authorities.

Now... I have previously merged Macclesfield_(borough) into Macclesfield and redirected into Macclesfield, as the only real content on the borough article was a well made infobox. See the previous edits on those articles. Am I going about his the right way? Would it be good practice to merge Oldham_(borough) into Oldham?

Advice sought. Peter Hitchmough

 * User:Morwen split the articles, realising that in many cases the borough is considered quite distinct from the place it is named for. However, this can be hard to judge, and in some cases such as Sheffield it created confusion and has since been merged back.  I know that there is more to the borough of Oldham than the town itself, but on the question of merging the articles, I think it would depend on whether the differentiation is proving useful or confusing.  Be bold, but try discussing it on the talk pages first, if the articles are being regularly edited - or discuss it with Morwen. Warofdreams 15:47, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I discussed with Morwen, and then demerged Macclesfield and moved some Macc facts to the town page. The whole thing works better now. Peter Hitchmough 10:47, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

http://www.urbanlegends.com/
The old Urban Legends website is now dead and the http://www.urbanlegends.com/ link now goes to a generic search website (associated with oingo.com, which likes to buy up abandoned URLs). I've used the Google site-search to try to find all the references to urbanlegends.com in the Wikipedia, but that search seems to have been incomplete since the original article where I found an external link to urbanlegends.com (Yellow badge) wasn't listed by Google. I went ahead and changed the pages that I found (April Fool's Day and Spontaneous human combustion) that hadn't already been changed by someone else, but a more complete search should be done. I am posting this info here since I couldn't find any better place to do it. gK ¿? 04:47, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Display of Fetch only the content osf the articles.
We are the Gnu priject from Tifr.We need to know how to get only the content of the article and the images if any.We do not want the wikipedia background as in the navigation on the left,the tabs on the top etc.We need this because when we click on the link that directs to the wikipedia article, the page takes up the whole screen and does not fit in the frame that we provide.It will be very efficient if we get only the content of the article in that frame.If suppose the article is not found then we redirect the user to the Wikipedia main page.We will be grateful if you provide us help on the same.

 * Two ways of doing this are using Special:Export (see XML export) or downloading the database) (see Database download. Angela. 22:41, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * This group has already downloaded the database, as they stated in previous messages (some archived). They seem to have a problem figuring out how to work with it, but never actually states what the problem is. -- Cyrius|✎ 00:14, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

MD5
Do youhaveany MD5 file with you.Do you generate any.If so pleaselet know.Thanks.

 * An MD5 of what? -- Cyrius|✎ 00:15, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Gisele Bundchen
Would someone post the photo of her on the Portuguese edition of Wikipedia to the English article? I'm not very good with technical things such as this and would appreciate someone else's aid. Ave atque vale! PedanticallySpeaking 21:08, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * The origin of the Portugese photo has no source info (and indeed a scary looking "there's no source" template). -- John Fader 21:20, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * But man, what a picture! Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy)  04:50, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * It's been removed from the Portuguese wikipedia. Good: it was a clear hazard to productivity :) -- John Fader 12:36, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A message from an anonymous lurker (moved)

 * (moved from top of page)

I made a contribution to an article, and it was reverted within 5 minutes, which was not nearly enough time to even do the slightest research on whether my edits were factual. I thought I was encouraged to Be bold in editing articles, but there is no point if they are reverted without a thought. They could have at least left a reason on the talk page, you know. I don't want this to devolve into a discussion about a specific article, so I'm not mentioning it here, but why should I contribute if the community does not want me to, you know?

 * Assuming that your edits were factually correct, there are a few possible explanations for why someone might have reverted them without researching them. One possibility is that the person who reverted them is a vandal or is pushing their particular POV.  Another is that your edits introduced information that, while in fact true, appears unlikely, and so an overzealous editor mistook them for obvious vandalism.  A third is that the editor felt that the information was outside of the scope of the article, or mistook it for advertising or POV-pushing.  A fourth is that the revert was a simple clerical error, and the editor pressed a button by accident or meant to revert a different article.

 * I recommend that you take your own advice and post something on the article's talk page, or at the talk page of the editor who reverted you. You may well find that that editor is reasonable and willing to either admit their mistake or explain to you why it wasn't a mistake.  If you cannot resolve your disagreement with them, we do have a dispute resolution process you could try.

 * You should be aware that, since most people who vandalize Wikipedia do so anonymously, editors are unfortunately more likely to scrunitinize and make snap judgements about edits that are attributed to an IP address rather than a user account. This is regrettable, but not entirely unsound.  There are a few measures you could take to improve your credibility:

 * Explain your edits in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
 * Whenever possible, include citations of source for information that you add to an article. Create or add to the article's "References" section.
 * Sign up for an account and make your edits while logged in. It's free, and you can use the account as much or as little as you like.  Of course, having an account doesn't change a thing about the quality of your information, but it is a meaningful gesture that shows your fellow editors you are willing to accept accountability for what you write, and thus makes them less likely to suspect you of being a vandal.

 * I hope this incident doesn't color your opinion of Wikipedia. The community does, in fact, want you to contribute, especially if your information is good and you are capable of improving an article in collaboration with other editors. —Triskaideka 22:57, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Spam filter blocking my site (also, this site is pretty damn hard to navigate, no offense intended.)
First off I have to say that this website is, no offense, IMPOSSIBLE to find your way around.

I just had a simple problem with the spam filter filtering out a website I was trying to link to. It told me to contact an administrator, so I went to the LONG list and picked one at random, but for the life of me I could not find any way to contact the person.

So I thought I'd try to contact the site itself. I went to the help page, and eventually found the Contact us link. The I spent forever trying to find my way around THAT page, before I FINALLY found the link to the Help desk. THEN I couldn't figure out how to post a new question - it took me FOREVER to find the tiny little "post a new question" link.

So anyway, my original problem was that the spam filter was filtering out a website I was trying to add to a page. The page was the Backstreet Boys page, and this is the link I wanted to add: www.bsbunlimited.4t.com.

Performance Reviews
Are reviews appropriate for an article? I came across Renee Robinson and wasn't sure if it was appropriate, and figured it'd be best to ask before deleting it. :) Thanks! -- Zawersh 06:39, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

View Problem
Hello, I have a problem with the font in the Wikipedia site. For some reason the browser uses the unconfortable font Gill Sans MT Shadow when browsing this site- and this site only. Why does it do that? How can I fix it?

Thank you, Racheli.

 * Go into the preferences screen, pick "skin", and chose the "classic" skin. It uses a serif font, and is generally much easier on the eye. -- John Fader 02:27, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, really, but where can I find the preferences screen? is it in my browser? Or somewhere in the Wikipedia site? Racheli.

 * In order to have personal preferences, you need to create an account and be logged in. To create an account hit the "create an account or log in" link at the top right.  Once you've done that, there's a "preferences" link in the top right. -- John Fader 16:16, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Finally, a normal font! Thanks!

 * I am of average intelligence and a computer dummy. I considered eBay "user unfriendly." After trying to navigate this one, eBay's rating has been raised to "user friendly."

 * Racheli - The link to the preferences page is on the top right-hand corner of the screen if you're logged in, between "my talk" and "my watchlist". If you're not a logged-in user, however, then that area will just read "Create an account or log in"; I don't think there's allowances for setting preferences otherwise, but creating a new account only takes a moment - and if you tick "remember me", you should never have to log in again.
 * Another solution would be to use a browser (like Opera, or Firefox) that allows you to "override" CSS styles with your own settings, although this might be a bit complex if you don't already know what you're trying to do. Shimgray 16:19, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Taking Credit for Anon Edits
If I've made edits without logging into my account, is there anyway that these edits could be retroactively accredited to me? Khanartist 10:58, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)

 * Yes... I did it once... let me see... Ah, Changing_attribution_for_an_edit, thanks Google! You have to still have access to the IP address and make an edit to that page using it.   — PhilHibbs | talk 11:17, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

name and password security !
I have just received an email from

wiki@wikimedia.org

It states a password and username.

These do not refer to me!

Is this a scam or a security bloop from wiki?

 * Well, here's a thought (all guesswork). If it is one of those "remind me of my password" messages, it might be that the username and password has YOUR e-mail address as its address. Whether that's an accident or some kind of scam is another matter. This is perhaps shaky ground, but maybe you could logon and check the profile for that user - don't change anything... if that is the case, you could leave a message on that user's talk page, but the chances are they would never log on again (since they have forgotten their password, and won't be getting the e-mails to tell them it). If on the other hand there is a different e-mail there, maybe something is wrong on the servers. And if the username and password don't work, maybe it's some kind of weird scam: be sure NOT to click on any links in the e-mail you were sent. Notinasnaid 11:31, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * They will be able to read messages on their talk page, even if they can't log on.   — PhilHibbs | talk 11:19, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

how to change User Name
Just created new account and I messed up the letters in my User Name. Is there any way I can Change my User Name? If not, how to I 'unsubscribe' - then I would just create a new account with correct User Name. Thanks in advance.
 * Create a new account, put a redirect on your old user page and request your edits to be attributed to you by a developer. Note that this will take some time, as most developers have other priorities (fixing the latest update). Can someone please provide the link to the reattribution page; I can't remember the link. Mgm|(talk) 21:44, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Try Changing attribution for an edit... but Changing username may be more appropriate 68.81.231.127 22:07, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Problems with tables
I have noticed that there are a number of articles with a table at the start where it appears on top of the text, see Battle of Methven for an example of this, there are others. There are some other articles which get this right. There is probably some fairly simple solution, but what is it? PatGallacher 01:55, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)

 * I don't quite know what you mean. Battle of Methven looks okay to me; although it uses an outmoded version of the wikipedia table syntax it should still work properly. When you say "where it appears on top of the text" do you mean that the main article text appears to be overlapping (in a really ugly way) with the text in the table?  I don't see that, but different browsers vary, and naturally we want the article to look good for everyone.  I've tweaked a few things in the article, but nothing that should make any difference.  Do you still see the problem?  If so, can you describe it at greater length, tell me which browser you're using, which wikipedia skin you're using (if you've not set it in preferences, then it's still "monobook", I guess), and cite an article that uses a comparable table that does look okay for you?  Armed with that, I'll see if I can resolve matters. -- John Fader 02:41, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I have had a look at it again, the problem is still there. What I mean is that the table obscures virtually all of the first paragraph, so you can't read it.  I am using Internet Explorer.  The linked entry Battle of Bannockburn works OK.  I have tried changing my skin preference to Classic and MySkin and Battle of Methven appears OK, but as Monobook is supposed to be the default this is hardly satisfactory.  If it is using an outmoded version of table syntax then it ought to be possible to identify the problem. -- Pat Gallacher 02:59, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Weird. Looks okay for me in IE, even in monobook. Nevertheless, I've changed the article to use the new-style markup.  Please clear your cache and take another look at it. -- John Fader 03:35, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

invisible text in entries
I am using MS internet explorer v. 5.5 for mac and many pages have blank areas in the text where there should definitely be text. I have seen this in a lot of different pages, but the "Linus Pauling" page really had quite a bit of it....

anyone know how to deal with this? thanks a million in advance. Andrew avwells@comcast.net

 * There is no Internet Explorer v 5.5 for Mac, the highest its version number ever got was 5.2.3. I'd suggest double checking that version number, because if it actually says 5.5, there's something weird and probably bad happening.

 * I checked the Linus Pauling page in 5.2.2, but could not reproduce the problem you're reporting. -- Cyrius|✎ 03:53, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Editing Tables
Please advise how one can edit tables. For example: In the Opal page there is a spelling mistake in the 'Identification: Colour' cell, to whit "iridiscent", which should read "iridescent". How does one correct this? Incidentally, the link for 'iridiscent' does not work. Is this due to the spelling mistake? Duncan France

 * You can edit the text of any page by hitting the "edit this page" tab at the top of the page. Yes, really. Tables have somewhat ugly syntax, but they can still be edited.

 * And yes, the link lead to a nonexistent article because of the misspelling. I've corrected it. -- Cyrius|✎ 03:47, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Missing Article - Fazed
I while ago, I created an article on Fazed, which is a blog/discussion site. It was added to and amended by users, but it has now vanished.

Can I find what has happened to this article?
 * It was deleted, see Votes for deletion/Fazed --fvw * </SMALL> 12:53, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)

Style or templates for bible verses
I've been wikifying articles with a number of biblical quotations. Is there
 * a preferred style?
 * a style you have seen which works?
 * templates to help?

Nothing lets down the presentation of these pages like straggly, unreadable bible verses. This also applies to articles heavily dotted with quotations.

Peter Hitchmough 20:14, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I've got no idea whether there's something in place for bible quotes, but I think the editors at WikiProject Bible are more knowledgeable than I am. If there's no style or templates yet, I'm sure they're happy to help out. Good luck! Mgm|(talk) 21:49, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Good call. WikiProject Bible is a bit hardline academic for me, but it is making some good progress. There is a useful page: Bible citation, which defines practicable abbreviations like Rev., Col. 2Co. etc. but most of the redirects need defining. I will think about doing that, and a suitable template for actually quoting scripture.

Also, can we include portions of Bible scripture? Are there versions in the public domain? Peter Hitchmough 22:19, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * The real purpose of a wikiproject, such as the bible one, is to talk about standards and practices for that given field of knowledge. So the talk page (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bible) there is the ideal place to discuss specific questions, as you'll get folks who care about it and who know (or who have already decided) specific issues.  Only they, I think, will know enough about which bible translations are PD.  KJV obviously is PD (and IMHO all the others bite by comparison). -- John Fader 22:52, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

future of Internet businesses
Do business experts believe that within the next five years, all business conducted by firms of more than 10 employees will be done through the Internet?

 * a) At least one probably does.
 * a) i) But people will argue anything, and he's probably wrong
 * a) ii) ...no, seriously. all? Not a chance.
 * b) You might find it more effective to ask questions like this over on Reference_Desk. Shimgray 00:32, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

jerk admins keep deleting my article
Hi I'm trying to make an article that some people call racist, however "nigger" is an article here. My article is real and called "nigger antics". It is meant to be serious but Luck and Rick are being rude.

Make them stop and put my article up

 * Please consider yourself on notice that any further vandalism -- including further attempts to restore that article -- will result in your being blocked from editing. -- The Anome 23:54, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Your entry was deleted because it was considered offensive. The Nigger article mentions referenced facts in a neutral manner. Please review WP:NPOV and WP:YFA. Note that calling admins "jerks" is a personal attack, which is not allowed. Mgm|(talk) 09:23, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

Chemical substance stub
I think I would like to start a bunch of pages on various chemical substances that don't currently have articles, giving at least the chemical structure, boiling point, melting point, and so forth. Is there some kind of standardized article stub I can use to start these articles so that my formatting will be consistent with that of similar topics? —Bkell 07:12, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Use . utcursch 07:56, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay, I'll be sure to do that too. What I am looking for, however, is some kind of recommended article format, like that used for, say, sodium hydroxide. It has that nice table on the right side, and a lot of other articles about chemical substances have it too. Is there a "blank chemical substance" template that I can use as a starting point? Additionally, is there some kind of chemical "style guide" with formatting recommendations? —Bkell 08:02, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Use . Check out WikiProject Chemicals, WikiProject Elements and WikiProject Rocks and minerals. utcursch 08:11, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you. —Bkell 16:58, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Could someone move a page for me?
Could some kindly registered-type person move Sauroptergyia to Sauropterygia? Requested moves and a 5-day delay seems inappropriate since there's no redirect to delete or second page to merge. (It's a new article I just wrote. I had problems saving, so after a wait I tried to create it a second time, and followed a misspelled link instead of typing the title in... and yes, I misspelled the link I followed in the first place :). See external links if there's any question about the spelling. 68.81.231.127 10:14, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * It's moved now, and the useless misspelled redirect deleted -- Ferkelparade π 11:38, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks! 68.81.231.127 11:47, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Category doubling
Hi

I've created a page for Lionel Charbonnier. I've included him in 2 categories where his name has doubled up: Category:French footballers and Category:Rangers F.C. footballers. What have I done wrong? - Master Of Ninja 20:54, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * You managed to create the page twice, probably when Wikipedia didn't seem to be responding properly. Repaired. -- Cyrius|✎ 22:45, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

editing a list
i'm trying to insert lines in a list; it will only let me edit the interior of lines already there, not add on at beginning or end or insert additional lines.
 * What list is causing you the problem? Mgm|(talk) 12:34, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)

I just broke an article and can't fix it
When I try to edit Article One of the United States Constitution, it truncates the text loaded into the edit box. I didn't realise this, and now I can't fix it. I have tried Firefox and IE, and it affects both so it's something to do with the connection. Probably a 32k limit. — PhilHibbs | talk 15:12, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I think I've done it, I faked an "Edit" URL for an older version with an &section number and that allowed me to reinsert the original text.   — PhilHibbs | talk 15:16, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I am now of the opinion that it might not have been me that lost the text, I think it was the previous editor.   — PhilHibbs | talk 15:39, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Script-running request
I don't know how to go about running a script or bot on Wikipedia, and don't want to start figuring out how. But I've found something that needs a bot/script1 to be run. So I'm requesting that it be done (see next paragraph). Thanks much! If this is wrong place to ask, someone please direct me to the right place, and I'll repost this there; thanks.

 * Any article that includes   and also includes    should be modified as follows:
 * * If the article is in Category:Hebrew Bible/Tanakh or any of its subcategories, then should be replaced with   .
 * * If the article is not in Category:Hebrew Bible/Tanakh or any of its subcategories, but is in Category:Christianity or any of its subcategories, then should be replaced with   .
 * This won't be perfect, but will be almost perfect. As it is, there are quite a few article that include both and.

 * 1  I don't know whether there's a difference between a bot and a script on Wikipedia, so I'm using both terms.

—msh210 18:52, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Bots (which is what you want in this case) are described at Bots. I count around 300 uses of that template - frankly that's probably below the point at which using a bot (writing it, getting it approved, and babysitting it while it runs) would be the more efficient strategy.  I'd probably take a hefty intake of breath and start doing it by hand (I did several hundred Gray's Anatomy images last month, using Firefox's tabbed browsing to help).  Bot or not, I'd wait until wikipedia isn't running so slowly. -- John Fader 19:46, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, actually, it's more than 300 articles, as one can actually change to  based on category. But I am moving thiss discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting; please continue it there (if at all).   —msh210 03:59, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have remopved this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting. —msh210

Simple URLs
Hi 'pedians!

I used to be able to simply type a word in the URL, like "wikipedia.org/Banana", and it would go to the right place. Recently, however, trying to go to that URL gives me a "redirection limit exceeded" error. I think it changed within the past couple weeks, but I don't know exactly when, and I couldn't find any mention of it around here.

Is it a problem with my computer, or did Wikipedia change? If the latter, any chance it'll go back so we don't have to always go through the search box?

Thanks!

 * You can still do the same with a slightly different URL:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana
 * Wikipedia has had some connection issues lately, so it could be due to them. In general this method hasn't given me much problems. Mgm|(talk) 21:40, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)

 * The example given works for me - but that may be because it has since been fixed. The plain URL http://www.wikipedia.org (and, indeed, http://wikipedia.org/) was recently changed to give a language-selection page, rather than the English front page, so the problem may have been related to the changes accompanying that. (For instance, it may have ended up going wikipedia.org -> www.wikipedia.org -> en.wikipedia.org, or some even longer chain). - IMSoP 23:14, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Adding a category to a template
I think Category:Endangered species should be added to Template:StatusEndangered and Template:StatusCritical, but some of those articles already include the category. Would this cause a problem?

If the article needed an alternate collation name, such as, could this be added to a separate instance of the category in the article itself? — PhilHibbs | talk 11:24, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I can't help you with the technical side. But while it's a clever idea, Endangered species may be an inappropriate category. Albatross, for example, has the Endangered template but refers to a taxon ranked at the family, not the species, level. I'm also not sure if it's better to have one massive category with potentially a huge number of taxa (like the birth and death categories), or whether it is better to manually create sub-categories (e.g. Category:Endangered birds, or something more specific). And how about the other status templates, like Fossil or LowerRisk? It might be worth discussing at at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tree of Life. 68.81.231.127 21:19, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not a native English speaker
I believe I can contribute some good articles to Wikipedia, however I am not a native English speaker. Will my grammar and spelling mistakes be corrected? I wish to contribute to main (English) Wikipedia. One small factual correction, though: while the English Wikipedia is at present the largest, calling it the "main" Wikipedia is quite inaccurate. It's hard to see in what sense "main" (other than "largest" or "first") would be appropriate. It's true, though, that a lot of people who have English as their second language (including yours truly) feel more compelled to work on the English Wikipedia than on their native language one. JRM 13:33, 2005 Jan 21 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course! In fact, some of our editors live to correct them. :-) I also note that you only made one error in asking this question (omitting "the" before "main"), so you're off to a good start. ;-)

Picture upload
Can I upload a picture file just to be used in my user page? Roscoe x 16:19, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * You certainly can, have a look at User:Arpingstone where you'll find a pic of me. You're free to add a pic or pics of anything you like, doesn't just have to be a pic of the user - Adrian Pingstone 21:42, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, if you're asing whether you can upload it and restrict its use to your user page (so no one else can use it), no. —msh210 16:47, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Of course, note that "[b]y uploading a file to which you hold the copyright, you agree to licence it under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License." An interesting question is whether you can get around that by having a friend take your picture. -- Itai 18:15, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If only I knew how.
Could someone please place the John Bowlby page in the Psychologists subcategory of Psychology. Also, please create a redirect from the search "Bowlby," or "Attachment," or "Loss." Thank you.
 * Done. utcursch 10:52, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

New Mixed case page title, difficulty finding
I have created an article titled (exactly) Clan MacKay - but only that exact capitalization finds it at all (it's only a few days old). How does this get made generally detectable?

 * You need to create redirect pages, such as Clan Mackay and Clan McKay. (Obviously I've done these two for you already.)  If you use the 'Search' function, rather than the default 'Go', the article should be found, unless there are cache problems (which sometimes occurs with recently created articles).  Noisy | Talk 12:28, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Since it's an orphan (no pages, except this one, link to it), it would also be a good idea to find some related articles, and add wikilinks back to your article, though of course show some some restraint. It will also give you some idea of how people are trying to link to your article (which make good redirects). And every article needs a category or two. 68.81.231.127 13:47, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Tupsharru ''' Thank you for your active and effective involvement and contribution in the discussions on the articles Mathew Mankuzhikary and Sebastian Mankuzhikary. I have followed the same. Try to edit and update it with more information to make the articles perfect.' Simple Sinai''

Ethyl alcohol
I noticed that the text does not wrap properly around the table in this article. However I am not great with tables and my couple of trial changes only made it worse. I presume it is something in the heading of the table? Rmhermen 14:54, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

 * IE seems to have problems woth stacking multiple right-floaty things, a problem modern browers don't share. I made the bottle image left floaty instead, and that seems to fix things. -- John Fader 15:23, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * It's because the text is drunk. —Brim 08:09, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

copyright in my userspace?
So all my contributions to wikipedia are GFDL. Does that include my user page? Can I put stuff in my userpage and withhold the rights? -Lethe | Talk 22:20, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

 * answered my own question: "Contributions, including images, must be licensed under the GFDL, just as articles are." -Lethe | Talk 22:26, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Two articles under one roof
I have added some stuff to Committee of 100, but it is currently two articles in one (which I'm sure(ish) is wroung). How do I make a disambiguation page + two new pages (one for each article) plus delete old page? (if indeed this is what I should do)--JK the unwise 13:58, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Disambiguation. Since there is only a short paragraph on each committee, the two articles in one style (see types) works just fine unless you plan on expanding it further. 68.81.231.127 14:18, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Cool. Will leave for now then--JK the unwise 15:35, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Infobox issues
Hi. I have two issues on the page for Sophia_University.

Whomever chose the infobox template chose the wrong one. They chose the one for US universities, and Sophia is clearly in Japan. I cannot see a way to change the infobox to the proper template.

Editing the data in an infobox is crazy. I tried for about ten minutes to get rid of the "" and "" entries, to no avail. I couldn't find any help on infoboxes.

Both of these issues could be fixed with better documentation that gets shown when you edit a page that has an infobox.

 * You can't get rid of those fields, so I supplied some reasonable values for them both. There doesn't seem to be an equivalent infobox for japanese universities; if it would be materially different from the US one then feel free to change one and add it to all the japanese universities you think should have it.  Infoboxes per-se aren't documented, as they're just some thing someone dreamed up (rather than being an actual feature of Mediawiki). They're implemented using the template mechanism, by a system of templated beginning with Template:infobox. You'll need to read a couple of templates to understand how this specific infobox is built, and if you decide to make your own infoboxes, please be ultra-careful about changing the low-level templates (like infobox) that are used on thousands of articles. -- John Fader 17:20, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Creating an article whose title is the same as an existing article
Sorry if this question is answered elsewhere; I've gone through all the info articles I can find, and still don't know the answer. I want to create an article on an Australian theatre performer/producer/etc named George Wallace, but there's already an article on an American politician of the same name. Short of removing the other article (bad choice!) how do I do it? - Wocky

 * I would suggest making your article title something like George Wallace (Australian impressario) and putting one line at the beginning of the existing article saying something like For the Australian theatre performer/producer see George Wallace.... There is also a page Wallace which lists a lot of people with that name to which you could add your article.   Morris 19:20, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

 * For more info you can check Disambiguation. 131.211.210.157 08:39, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Special:Preferences has unclear option
At Special:Preferences there is an option called "Limit images on image description pages to" with a dropdown box and several resolutions to select from. The Help:Preferences help file explains this option as "Confusingly in the category "Recent changes and stub display", one can specify a limit on the size of images on image description pages.".

Could someone please explain to me what this option does and/or edit the entry in the help file?

--Feantur 22:06, 2005 Jan 23 (UTC)

 * That option determines the size of the image you see on an image description page like Image:Common blue damselfly02.jpg. If you change that option, and reload the page (ctrl-f5) then you'll see the different size. -- John Fader 13:45, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Adding Maps
If you look at an article such as Mahwah, New Jersey, you'll notice that it has a map showing the location of the town. If, however, you pull up an article for a town in Massachusetts, such as Worcester, Massachusetts, there is no map. There is a nice map of Massachusetts cities and towns available from the Mass. Citizen Information Service at http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cis/cispdf/ma_city_town.pdf. Is there a way to take all 351 Mass. town articles and highlight their location on this map in the article? Is there also a way to do something similar for other states, like New Hampshire? Thanks.

--Tckma, 2005 Jan 22

 * The problem is partially one of copyright - we can't take maps from most sources (the US federal government is an exception) and use them in wikipedia. Wikipedia's state maps, county maps, and occasional maps of cities, are made by a very small number of wikipedia's contributors themselves (using publically available GIS data, I believe).  I guess those folks are only part way through the US. -- John Fader 23:47, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, the project is ongoing. Seth Ilys has a progress log on his user page. -- Cyrius|✎ 05:14, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Request for history-merge
RS-485 was improperly cut-and-pasted to EIA-485. Would someone please merge the history of RS-485 into EIA-485, to keep the history with the article? –radiojon 06:28, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)

Weird lowercase "r" in article titles
Anyone besides me notice this? The lowercase r appears as rows of line segments, instead of a solid letter. I'm not sure if my description makes sense, so it's probably better if you see for yourself: open an article with a lowercase "r" in the title (click on Community Portal, for instance, then look at the title when the article page has loaded.

I asked about this at Village pump a few weeks ago. No one answered and after a few days the lowercase r went back to normal. As of this writing it's happening again. Is this a glitch, or intentional (maybe an in-joke)? Gyrofrog 07:50, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I see nothing like this. So the problem is more likely either (a) specific to your own system (perhaps font corruption); or (b) specific to particular browsers and/or operating systems. To move forward, I'd suggest see whether a reboot fixes it; and if not, posting full details of your own system. Notinasnaid 10:47, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I see nothing wrong. I have IE6 and Win XP - Adrian Pingstone 09:27, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I, too, see nothing wrong. I have Mozilla 1.4.3 with version information Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4.3) Gecko/20050104 Red Hat/1.4.3-3.0.7.  —msh210 17:06, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I guess it was my system, after all. Thanx for checking. Gyrofrog 19:51, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nellie Harbridge, artist
Question moved to Reference Desk -- Ferkelparade π 13:29, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Help for articles and categories
We are working on GNU related content management project. Our project aims to create a semantic web enabled portal for content management.We are working at TIFR under the guidance of Dr.Nagarjuna G. We are currently working on the articles at the Wikipedia site. We have downloaded the cur (current) sql dump which has the entire content including the text of the articles. We are interested only in the names of the articles and the relationship to their categories. We have also tried the categorylinks db but, it gives us the ids of the articles and not their names. We would like to know if there is any table which just has the names of the articles and their categories. Thanking you, Sakecwiki team (TIFR)

 * There isn't one. You'll have to do an SQL join between cur and categorylinks. -- Cyrius|✎ 12:50, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

1 topic, 2 names
Hi

I want to create a wimshurst machine article, but its also very commonly known as "wimhurst" machine. do i create 2 pages with identical content?

--GeCh 13:43, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * You are too late by almost two years – see Wimshurst machine; though of course you might find you can add more to this fairly short article. If this is a common enough mis-spelling there may be a good enough reason for creating a redirect from the other name, though on Google the correct name is over 70 times more frequent. The best place to suggest this would be the discussion page for the article.
 * In general, you never create two identical articles; there are people in Wikipedia who go round looking for that and removing the duplicates! But where it is justified you can create a redirecting page. For example, if you try to go to an article called redir you end up at an article called Redirect. Notinasnaid 15:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * can't believe i missed that! was looking for "Wimshurst Machine". thx for the heads up, and the stuff abt the redirecting. really appreciate.

--GeCh 15:33, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

new user reporting vandalized Ku Klux Klan article
I don't know how this stuff works, but apparently someone has gone into the KKK article and inserted various obscenity-laden objections to the organization. Somebody might want to fix it before any kiddies go there.

Already reverted by Zigger. If you want to know how to do a revert, go to Revert Thanks for noticing! Lee S. Svoboda 21:52, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Oops, I made submissions while not logged in
I just made about 5 edits to the Iron Chef page a few minutes ago, and then realized that I wasn't logged in when I did that. Is there any way to go back and associate said edits with my account?

I should have paid closer attention to that, but I didn't. Would like for them to show up in the my contributions area, but I can't find a way to do this myself; assuming it's even possible.

Thanks.

 * Yep, try Changing attribution for an edit, instructions are under Procedure. AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 01:09, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How to get atricle attribute to editor when edit as login
I remember to have read how to change the owner of the editing, when it was done without being logging in. i remember tha can be done by sysop only, but there where a method that can be done only immidiately by the person how have just edit the article. But I dont remember how AnyFile 11:36, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * See Changing_attribution_for_an_edit. —Brim 13:37, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * Should it better advertised in the help pages. (I can not find it with a short search)AnyFile 18:42, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * No, it shouldn't be advertised more. There are not enough developers to handle these requests as it is. If more people added to that page, the requests are likely to never be fulfilled. Angela. 20:05, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

Mediation question.
I want to file a complaint against User:Violetriga starting with mediation, as I assume this is the best way. Can someone tell me how to go about it/point me in the right direction please, as wikipedia is designed to be so un-user friendly and complicated? WikiUser 15:07, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Try Dispute_resolution, which contains (suggested) steps for the entire dispute resolution process. --Deathphoenix 15:10, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks. And any other advice will be welcomed too. As it's very hard to get your equal rights on the Wikipedia.WikiUser 16:02, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Just following on from what Phoenix said, the first stage you should try is Requests for comment, under the section on "Comment about individual users". This offers a platform to set out your grievances about a user's conduct. Requests for comment/Libertas is quite a well-set out example of how to structure your RfC. Note that another user has to endorse it within 48 hours, otherwise it will be deleted. -- ChrisO 18:19, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * No problem. I'm pretty much a newbie, so I'm definitely not an expert in anything to do with Wikipedia. You definitely sound frustrated, but I think with things like this, it's important to stay cool. If you want to file a mediation request, you might want to check out some other requests, as they will give you a general idea of what to write and include in your request. I'm checking out some of these dispute resolution articles (including WP:RfCs and WP:RfArs) because I find the whole process very interesting. Good luck. --Deathphoenix 17:49, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks phoenix.WikiUser 21:27, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Is there someone such as a mediator of goodwill who can assist me with abuse from admin Chris0 who has announced he is going to block me against the wikipedia rules-simply for my being at this site. This user has made my life hell here. And also assist me with the following matter: 3RR again You are now on your third revert of List of United Kingdom nations by population. Your use of "countries" rather than "nations" is inconsistent with the article title and is against the previously agreed consensus expressed on Talk:England. Please seek consensus on what the term should be rather than imposing your own view. I suggest raising this issue on Talk:United Kingdom so that any change to the terminology can be made on all of the articles which currently refer to UK nations rather than countries. If you revert List of United Kingdom nations by population again you will be blocked from editing for 24 hours. -- ChrisO 20:51, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) USERS PLEASE NOTE:I have not reverted it at all. I have edited the pages in question, in the same way as everyone else does edit pages. I warned this user that if he continued his abuse of me I would proceed with complaints against him. I HAVE GIVEN plenty of notice to The Wikipedia Foundation that I am partially disabled and have been caused great distress by the continual abuse of this and other users who have targetted me for abuse since I joined. And I want The Wikipedia Foundation to note that this discrimination, insult and abuse is driving me towards considering suicide. I CALL FOR all users and Administrators of goodwill to stop this user from harrassing me in this way.WikiUser 21:16, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:WikiUser" WikiUser 21:27, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I want to add that I have been working on articles for weeks peacefully and politely with others (providing more than 40 requested articles), until user Chris0 and his friends began targetting me for abuse again.WikiUser 21:33, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Hmmm... I didn't know it was this serious, WikiUser. Most mediators are more or less mediators of good will. However, one possible way of dealing with this is to check out the Association of Members' Advocates. You can make a general request for assistance, or you can ask a specific advocate to help you. Members of the AMA can probably guide you towards a successful resolution to your problem. I'd join that association myself if I knew more about the whole process. :-) --Deathphoenix 14:03, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks phoenix. I asked this particular person to go to mediation at least twice and they refused. Now they say I never did, on the same page that I did ask!. I've now been to those pages and requested mediation.WikiUser 18:03, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Re your taking the trouble/interest:- Further update, [and], and other.WikiUser 16:16, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Your advice was sound of course phoenix. but the upshot of going to mediation is that UserChrisO has stepped up abuse and says he'll "ban" me "long term" for going to mediation. myTalk. For anyone interested: Re mediation, Re mediation2, advocate request. He says I have no right to go to arbitration: "You also have no right to abuse Wikipedia dispute resolution procedures for your own ends, as in your frivolous arbitration request last August and the equally frivolous mediation request you've made this week.". (See above pages for original quote.WikiUser 20:52, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia:Help desk/Archive 13


text:
Pietenpol Air Camper

The Pietenpol Air Camper is a simple parasol wing homebuilt aircraft designed by Bernard H. Pietenpol. The first prototype that became the Air Camper was built and flown by Pietenpol in 1928.

Development
The Air Camper was designed to be built of spruce and plywood. One of Pietenpol's goals was to create a plane that was affordable and easy to construct for home builders. Building an Air Camper requires basic woodworking skills and tools. Builders also need to fabricate some metal fittings to attach the wooden parts together. Some welding is required. The plans for the Pietenpol Aircamper were originally published in a four-part serial in the "Flying and Glider" Manual of 1932-33.

The original model was flown using an Ace four cylinder water-cooled engine. The Model A Ford engine later became the standard powerplant used; the design was first flown with one in May 1929.

In the 1960s Bernard Pietenpol began to favor converted engines from Chevrolet Corvair automobiles. The Corvair flat six was higher horsepower, smoother, and significantly lighter, compared to the Model A, and was similar to those already available for general aviation use. The length of a Pietenpol varies with the engine choices, as lighter engines needed to be mounted further forward for weight and balance reasons. Over the years over 30 different engines have flown in the Pietenpol Air Camper. Many modern Pietenpol builders prefer Continental A65, C85 or C90 air-cooled flat fours. Several examples of the Aircamper have been built in Europe and in 2012 were still flying.

In the 1920s and 1930s, kits were available for the design, but there were none available again until 2015 when the Pietenpol Aircraft Company introduced a kit version of the Air Camper, with components supplied by Aircraft Spruce & Specialty. The kit includes all parts except the engine, dope, fabric covering, and hardware.

Variants

 * Pietenpol Sky Scout
 * BH Pietenpol also designed and published plans for a single-seat version of the aircraft named the Pietenpol Sky Scout, which was slightly smaller and was powered by the Ford Model T engine. During the late 1920s and early 1930s, this was less expensive than the Model A used in the Air Camper.

 * UK LAA-approved Pietenpol Air Camper
 * In some countries, civil aviation authority approval is required for each experimental aircraft design, in addition to the approval of each aircraft an individual makes, as in the US. A variant of the Pietenpol Air Camper was designed by Mr. J. K. Wills, and UK Light Aircraft Association approval was obtained for this variant.

 * Grega GN-1 Aircamper
 * A plans-only homebuilt design similar to the Air Camper using a Piper Cub wing.

 * St Croix Pietenpol Aerial
 * A biplane adaptation, designed by Chad and Charles Willie and produced by St Croix Aircraft of Corning, Iowa, first flown in 1977.

 * St Croix Pietenpol Aircamper
 * An adaptation of the original design with more wingspan, longer fuselage and higher gross weight.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Pietenpol Air Camper


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinese ethnocentrism

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. -- AllyUnion (talk) 10:52, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Chinese ethnocentrism
The page contains a short piece of text that is merely a (poorly-written) definition of Ethnocentrism, with “Chinese” inserted. No reason is offered for thinking that there's anything significant about Chinese ethnocentrism, or anything that isn't covered on the main ethnocentrism page. I've tried a couple of times to delete it and make it a redirect page, but my edit has been reverted, both times by people active in the Votes for deletion/Jewish ethnocentrism debate, one giving no reason, the other leaving a message on my Talk page labelling me “left wing”. (Update, 3rd Feb. 05: the same user, User:Jacquerie27, after pestering me on my Talk page, started looking up the articles I've started, combing them for minor, often imagined errors of grammar, sometimes leaving snide messages about me on the relvant Talk pages (see Churchill, Oxfordshire & Bachelor of Philosophy). Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 22:38, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC))

My suggestion is that the page be deleted (as it has no content that needs to be merged) and turned into a redirect page. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 19:35, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete. The very title of this article is POV, so it's hard to see how an article with this title can ever be made NPOV. -- Curps 19:44, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete with no redirect. I agree with Curps that an article with this title can't be made NPOV. By the same token, I don't see the value of redirecting a POV title like this to an NPOV title. This would be tantamount to redirecting "miserable failure" to George W. Bush. :-) --Deathphoenix 19:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * delete with no redirect Mozzerati 22:15, 2005 Feb 2 (UTC)
 * Delete For the reasons listed above. Clever point about "miserable failure" -- I agree, in that such a redirect would be POV (however funny that particular Google bomb is).Zantastik 07:40, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete However, if the article is rewritten to provide evidence that ethnocentrism in China is unique, it should not be speedied. Beta_M talk, |contrib ( Ë-Mail )
 * Delete - original research - David Gerard 10:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Expanding the frontiers of the Semitism War to include more articles is a plain case of disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. To make the different and overriding point that we don't allow such disruption, I vote Delete. Uncle G 18:17, 2005 Feb 3 (UTC)
 * Delete. Unsourced, POV, original research.  No re-direct. Jayjg (talk)  23:00, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. 81 Google hits, of which many are Wikipedian in origin. (The correct term is Sinocentrism.) GeorgeStepanek\talk  00:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. For reasons given by others. --BM 01:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Sinocentrism redirects to Chinese nationalism, but this isn't quite the same thing. Delete.  -Sean Curtin 07:12, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep but rewrite each and every word. I am Chinese. I am not supposed to say anything about this issue. If you are a foreigner living in a Chinese society and people discriminate you because of your race or nationality, that's ethnocentrism. I am not supposed to say that my country has no problem with ethnocentrism. This question is better answered by other people. Chinese ethnocentrism was real. As late as some 100 years ago, many Chinese people did believe that China (中國, literally "middle kingdom") was the center (中) of the world. The invasion of European powers shattered the dream. Many Chinese abandoned the ethnocentrism and turned to be self-hatred or become white men's ass-kissers. This history indicated Chinese ethnocentrism was real. Therefore, it deserves a responsible and well-researched article. To me, this is not something to be ashamed of. If this article is finally kept, I'll remove all current material and do a better version of it. I don't care about the arguments over ther with "Jewish ethnocentrism". Censorship is not my thing. -- Toytoy 12:35, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete I made a redirect to chinese nationalism but it was reverted by jacquerie. Perhaps we can add a segment of sinocentrism on that page. As of right now, this article has nothing exceptionally chinese, and the points can be said for just about any ethnicity. Wareware 00:29, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Gamaliel 23:45, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Toytoy makes a valid argument, and it was one I was going to make on the "Jewish ethnocentrism" argument:  There is a valid and well-documented part of Chinese civilization that is directly tied to the idea that China is the intellectual and cultural center of the world (which at one time was probably true, but that notwithstanding...)  That said, my vote for this article is still "Delete", because this article is devoid of unique content.  Toytoy's point should be considered, and I think such an article would be quite informative.  Unlike Jewish ethnocentrism, which is an external (to Judaism) construct invented and used by anti-Semites to ridicule and delegitimize Jews, "Sinocentrism" is a native Chinese concept, indeed one that has played (and continues to play) a very important rôle in Chinese culture. TShilo12 00:57, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, Chinese ethnocentrism is real and an important concept. Megan1967 01:58, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Marva Dawn

Marva J. Dawn (August 20, 1948 – April 18, 2021) was an American Christian theologian, author, musician, preacher, and educator. She was associated with the parachurch organization Christians Equipped for Ministry in Vancouver, Washington where she taught Christians around the globe. She also served as a Teaching Fellow in Spiritual Theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia. Dawn was generally perceived as a Lutheran evangelical. She often wrote in a paleo-orthodox style, stressing the importance of Christian tradition and the wisdom of the Church through the centuries.

Biography
Born in Napoleon, Ohio as Marva Gersmehl, she later took the surname Dawn as a pseudonym. She was raised a Lutheran.

After completing a B.A. (1970) from Concordia Teachers College, she completed a M.A. (1972) in English from the University of Idaho, an M.Div. (1978) in New Testament from Western Evangelical Seminary, and a Th.M. (1983) in Old Testament from Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary. She then completed an M.A. (1986) and Ph.D. (1992) in Christian Ethics and the Scriptures from the University of Notre Dame. She has taught for clergy and worship conferences and at seminaries in North America and internationally.

She was married to Myron Sandberg, an elementary school teacher, in 1989.

She struggled with illnesses such as cancer, chronic pain, blindness in one eye, a kidney transplant, and foot problems.

She died in Vancouver, Washington on April 18, 2021.

Theology and Beliefs
Dawn wrote numerous books on worship, spirituality, and Christian ethics. Her work emphasized the importance of liturgy, Sabbath-keeping, and spiritual formation in the Christian life.

Her 1995 book, Reaching Out Without Dumbing Down: A Theology of Worship for the Turn-of-the-Century Culture, which urged a second look at so-called "contemporary Christian worship", caused a stir in evangelical circles, being the first scholarly work from within the evangelical community to seriously question "seeker sensitive" style worship. Dawn claimed that much contemporary worship, which seeks primarily to evangelize through entertainment, is not really Christian worship at all. Rather than focus on bringing people into the church through worship, Dawn argued that worship should instead focus upon the glory and grace of the triune God, not ignoring the artistic treasures and traditions of the Church through the ages. The book remains her most widely read and most talked about work. Dawn continued this exploration in her 1999 book, A Royal "Waste" of Time: The Splendor of Worshiping God and Being Church for the World.

Another one of Dawn's works, "Is It a Lost Cause? Having the Heart of God for the Church's Children" published in 1997 is about the challenges of passing on the Christian faith to the next generation and how the church can better engage children and young people in its life and mission. In "Is It a Lost Cause?", Marva Dawn argues that the church needs to do a better job of recognizing and valuing children as full members of the community of faith. She asserts that children are not the "church of the future" but rather the "church of today" and that they have important contributions to make to the life of the church.

In her more recent work, Dawn has drawn on Albert Borgmann's notion of the device paradigm to develop a critique of the church in its capitulation to commodification where worship, for example, becomes a device to attract and please.

List of works

 * Talking the Walk: Letting Christian Language Live Again (2018). Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock. ISBN 9781532640063
 * The Sense of the Call: A Sabbath way of life for those who serve God, the church, and the world (2006). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802844590
 * How Shall We Worship?: Biblical Guidelines for the Worship Wars (2015). Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock. ISBN 9781725235212
 * In the Beginning, GOD: Creation, Culture, and the Spiritual Life (2009). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press. ISBN 9780830837076
 * Keeping the Sabbath Wholly: Ceasing, Resting, Embracing, Feasting
 * My Soul Waits: Solace for the Lonely in the Psalms (2007). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press. ISBN 9780830834433
 * The Sense of the Call: A Sabbath Way of Life for Those Who Serve God, the Church, and the World. (2006) Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. ISBN 0802844596
 * Unfettered Hope: A Call to Faithful Living in an Affluent Society (2003). Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press. ISBN 9781611644449
 * Powers, Weakness, and the Tabernacling of God (2001). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802847706 (2002 Christianity Today Book Award in the category of The Church/Pastoral Leadership)
 * Morning by Morning: Daily Meditations from the Writings of Marva J. Dawn (2001). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802847690
 * Truly the Community: Romans 12 and How to Be the Church (1997; formerly titled The Hilarity of Community). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802844668
 * The Unnecessary Pastor: Rediscovering the Call (2000). With Eugene H. Peterson. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802846785
 * A Royal Waste of Time: The Splendor of Worshiping God and Being Church for the World (1999). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802845863
 * I'm Lonely, LORD - How Long?: Meditations on the Psalms (1998). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802844712
 * Is It a Lost Cause?: Having the Heart of God for the Church's Children (1997). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802843739
 * Reaching Out Without Dumbing Down: A Theology of Worship for This Urgent Time (1995). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802841025
 * Joy in our Weakness A Gift of Hope from the Book of Revelation (1994). St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. ISBN 9780570046387
 * Sexual Character: Beyond Technique to Intimacy (1993). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802807007
 * To Walk and Not Faint (1980). New York: Christian Herald Books. ISBN 9780915684656

title: Marva Dawn