text:
Talk:AK Press

"Barnes and Noble" comment
"Some have criticized AK Press for it's Barnes and Noble-like effect on the radical publishing scene. Because they have such a large catalogue, as well as low prices and global distribution range, some radical publishers have suffered financial losses as well as closures."

Could someone provide a link to such criticisms? I usually see praise for Ak Press in radical circles, and besides, most of their distro is through other publishers so they're helping them really...But it is a good point, would just like to actually see it made, or proof that the "financial losses" are the fault of AK Press --Tothebarricades.tk 22:55, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I dunno about Barnes & Noble but they are notoriously slow at paying their creditors... But we love em anyway! quercus robur 14:02, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

My concern about the "Barnes and Noble" comment is that it isn't very obvious to me as a non-american. I think it might be better phrased in terms of AK's monopolising anarchist publishing world. e.g. "...for its monopolising effect on the radical publishing world, similar to the effect that large bookseller Barnes and Noble has had on the mainstream book selling community.", or similar. It took me a minute to figure out what it meant to "Barnes and Noble" someone. An An 03:30, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I've removed the statements quoted above. If someone wants to reference exactly who is doing the criticizing and what, if any, radical publishers have suffered because of AK feel free to put it back in. --Bk0 04:59, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * This is good. An An 05:17, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree- despite my comment above I have a fair few dealings with AK, and though they could be a bit quicker re. paying their creditors thay are doing a sttirling job considering there are only 2 of them as full time workers on the UK side of operations. I ceratinly don't think they are setting out to monopolise the alternative publishing scene, they just happen to be good at what thye do, and I've always found them supportive of my own publishing venture, cheers quercus robur 23:43, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

History
I removed this from the introductory text: "It was founded by one time punk rocker Ramsey Kanann with money from his wealthy parents in a plush 3-bedroom flat in Edinburgh's leafy Newington district. The one-time member of Scots punks Oi Polloi still retains links with the Scottish capital despite residing full-time in California." Maybe it's true, but there's no citation, and it's probably not the best place for it anyways. Ideas? Wyatt Riot 23:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

What does 'AK' mean?
and can someone put that in the article?

 * Ramsey has always said its his grandmother's initials, but I havn't got a cite for that quercus robur 20:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I always assumed it was a reference to the AK-47. That's just a guess on my part. --Bk0 (Talk) 23:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Edinburgh or Stirling?
The category has Edinburgh; the article has Stirling. Varlaam (talk) 18:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

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2007 Kanaan's leaving and founding of PM Press
This article cites both AK and PM on the split, offering more details (including the description that "The democratic system he had set up was the thing that drove him out in the end," which is a helluva statement!) https://eastbayexpress.com/beyond-anarchy-at-pm-press-1/ Should it be included in some capacity in either publisher's page? Or adding to the Ramsey Kanaan page?? Psychopomplemousse (talk) 21:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:AK Press


text:
List of film periodicals

Film periodicals combine discussion of individual films, genres and directors with in-depth considerations of the medium and the conditions of its production and reception. Their articles contrast with film reviewing in newspapers and magazines which principally serve as a consumer guide to movies.

title: List of film periodicals


text:
Hamme (river)

The Hamme (in its upper reaches Giehler Bach) is a 48 km long river in Germany, Lower Saxony, north-east of Bremen. Its source is north of Osterholz-Scharmbeck. It flows through the moors north-east of Bremen called Teufelsmoor, and meets the river Wümme in Ritterhude. From this junction, the river is called Lesum. The Lesum flows into the river Weser in Bremen-Vegesack.

On the river Hamme there are many water-sport clubs, for example the Wassersportclub Hamme e.V. (watersports-club Hamme), the Ruder-Verein Osterholz-Scharmbeck von 1901 e.V. (Rowing Club Osterholz-Scharmbeck since 1901) and the Segel Club Hamme e.V. (Sailing Club Hamme).

Course
The upper reaches of the Hamme are called the Giehler Bach (Giehl Stream). The Giehler Bach originates in the heathland of the Lange Heide northeast of Osterholz-Scharmbeck, a geest plateau at a height of about, which is also the source of many other geest streams (such as the Drepte, Scharmbecker Bach, Schönebecker Aue and Wienbeck). The sport designated as the "source" is the outlet of several drainage ditches on the plateau which is used for farming.

From this geest ridge, a terminal moraine from the Saale glaciation, the Giehler Bach flows northeastwards and descends within a few kilometers between the villages of Hülseberg and Freißenbüttel to a height about 15 m above sea level (NN). Near Ohlenstedt it is joined by waters from the Ohlenstedter Quellseen lakes and the river, falling very gently, then flows through the collective municipality of Hambergen to the Springmoor near Giehlermühlen (Vollersode) (5 m above sea level).

From there, the stream descends very gently to the Teufelsmoor, where it is finally discharges into the Hamme into the Giehler Moor near Viehspecken (4 m above sea level). It is also joined by the Oste-Hamme Canal (Kollbeck). Flowing very slowly, the Hamme now heads south through the glacial valley named after her.

Between the former moor colonies of Bornreihe and Hüttenbusch the river now continues in the direction of Worpswede, where it is joined by three left-hand tributaries, the Rummeldeisbeek, Schmoo and Umbeck. A few kilometers upstream the Beek enters from the right, draining most of the moors west of Hamme. Near the mouth of the Beek on the Hamme is the picturesque nature reserve of Breites Wasser, which is the largest remaining lake in the lowland region. From here the Hamme flows in a southwesterly direction past Osterholz-Scharmbeck towards Ritterhude.

In the 19th century, this part of the Hamme was straightened and the numerous meanders were cut at a total of seven places, so that the length of the river was reduced from 9 to 4.3 km. Behind the locks in Ritterhude, built in 1876, which keep the Hamme tide-free, the Hamme joins the tidal river of the Wümme near the city limits of Bremen and together they form the salt-waters of the Lesum, which enters the Weser 10 km downstream. The old branches of the river were mainly preserved as one-sided confluences with the Hamme. A remaining part of the so-called Altarm 3 ("Old Arm no. 3") southeast of Scharmbeckstotel was de-sludged in 2007 as part of the Hamme Depression Nature Conservation Project and in 2008 a sill was added to prevent it from running empty at low water. At the end of January 2020, after three months of construction, the 230-metre-long stretch of this waterbody that had been filled in was dug up again over its length and connected to the Hamme.

The total length of the river is 48 km and it descends through about 45 m.

title: Hamme (river)


text:
Talk:Zaknafein Do'Urden

Page move

 * I moved this page over here from its original location at Zaknafein. --Idont Havaname 22:59, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I honestly can't belive this page din't have a spoiler warning. If I hadn't already read the The Dark Elf Trilogy, I would have been pissed off for finding out critical plot elements. I just hope I added the warning before someone was less fortunate. xompanthy 22:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Zaknafein Do'Urden


text:
USS Alert (AS-4)

The third USS Alert was an iron-hulled screw steamer gunboat in the United States Navy. The lead ship in her class, Alert was destined for a long naval career, serving from 1875 to 1922, a period of 47 years, including service as a submarine tender in World War I. Toward the end of her career she received the designation AS-4.

Alert was laid down in 1873 by John Roach & Sons at the Delaware River Iron Ship Building and Engine Works shipyard, Chester, Pennsylvania in 1873. Launched on 18 September 1874, Alert was commissioned for the first time on 27 May 1875 with Commander William T. Sampson in command.

Training ship
The screw steamer spent the first year of her Navy career attached to the North Atlantic Station. During the summer, she wore the flag of Rear Admiral C. R. Perry Rodgers, Superintendent of the Naval Academy, and hosted cadet-midshipmen on board for practical training in the operation of steam propulsion equipment – all as a part of the Academy's practice cruise for 1875.

Atlantic and Asiatic stations
Alert operated out of ports on the Atlantic coast during the fall and winter of 1875 and 1876 until departing New York on 26 May 1876 on the first leg of a voyage to the Asiatic Station. Proceeding by way of the Mediterranean Sea and the relatively new Suez Canal, she stopped at Gibraltar, Malta, and Aden before reaching Hong Kong on 11 September. For almost three years, the ship cruised the waters around Japan and along the Chinese coast, showing the flag at such places as Yokohama, Nagasaki, Kobe, and Hakodate in Japan, and Hong Kong, Shanghai, Amoy, and Swatow in China. Unlike modern goodwill visits, her port calls frequently could be measured in terms of weeks and months rather than days. When at sea, she charted hydrographic features, investigated maritime disasters, and performed humanitarian services for the victims of those disasters.

On 4 January 1879, Alert departed Yokohama on her way back to the United States. She arrived at the Mare Island Navy Yard on 24 February and began a six-month repair period. On 30 August 1879, the warship set sail from San Francisco on her way back to the Asiatic Station. The steamer arrived in Yokohama on 6 October and commenced 32 months of service in the Far East. In addition to the normal port visits and wreck investigations, she did survey work in the Bonin Islands during the spring and summer of 1881. On 11 January 1882, Alert stood out of Hong Kong and embarked upon a voyage that took her to a number of places in the Orient that she had not previously visited. Her itinerary during that cruise included Saigon, Bangkok, and Singapore in southeast Asia; Batavia (now Djakarta) and Sarawak in the Netherlands East Indies (now Indonesia); and Labuan, Iloilo and Manila in the Philippines.

Collision with Japanese Emperor's yacht
She returned to Japan via Hong Kong, and, on 15 April 1882, while steaming from Kobe to Yokohama, suffered damage as a result of being rammed by the JAPANESE WARSHIP Jingei, a side-paddle steamer which served as the Imperial yacht for Emperor Meiji. Although the night was clear and both vessels had their running lights in sight of each other for an hour, Jingei inexplicably turned hard to starboard just as the vessels passed each other, gashing a large hole in the side of the Alert. Jingei suffered only minor damage, but Alert took two months to complete repairs. On 15 June, the ship left Yokohama again for the United States. She arrived in San Francisco on 18 July, and on the 31st she was placed out of commission at Mare Island.

Asiatic station, 1883-86
The warship remained inactive at Mare Island until recommissioned on 8 October 1883 for another tour of duty on the Asiatic Station. On 23 November, she put to sea on the long voyage to the Orient. She arrived in Nagasaki, Japan, on 18 February 1884 and spent the next 20 months operating almost exclusively in the East China Sea and the Yellow Sea, calling frequently at Nagasaki and at Chemulpo (now Inchon), Korea. Alert widened her horizons in the fall of 1885 with more frequent visits to Chinese ports; and, during the early months of 1886, extended her range still farther to include southeast Asian ports, notably Bangkok and Singapore. In March 1886, she stopped at Hong Kong and Canton. On 19 April, the warship returned to Japan at Yokohama. That port and Hakodate served as the foci of her operations until the first week in August. Alert put to sea from the latter on 5 August, beginning a voyage back to the United States. She entered San Francisco on 10 September and went out of commission there on 23 September.

Pacific station, 1887–90
Recommissioned at the Mare Island Navy Yard on 15 January 1887, for service on the Pacific Squadron, the warship departed San Francisco on 23 February and headed down the coast of Mexico toward Central and South America. She arrived off the coast of Panama – then still a province of Colombia – on 7 May. For the next 15 months, Alert plied the waters along the west coast of Central and South America between Panama and Peru. On 11 August 1888, she set sail from Callao, Peru, bound for Hawaii – then still an independent kingdom but heavily influenced by American residents. Alert arrived in Honolulu on 15 September and remained in the islands until the spring of 1889. Sermons given on board by Rear Admiral Albert Ross in 1887 and 1888 are extant.

Samoan mercy mission
The ship's departure from Hawaii came in response to a maritime disaster at Samoa. Diplomatic relations strained by efforts to achieve political dominance in Samoa had brought together in Apia, Samoa, seven warships belonging to three nations. The naval strength gathered there consisted of the American ships USS Nipsic (1863), USS Trenton (1876), and USS Vandalia (1876); the Germans SMS Adler, SMS Eber, and SMS 0–90; and the lone British man-of-war HMS Calliope (1884). On 15 March 1889, a hurricane struck Apia trapping the three American and three German warships in the harbor. Only HMS Calliope succeeded in escaping to sea early on the 16th. By the morning of the 16th, the storm increased in ferocity and battered the six remaining vessels unmercifully. All three German ships sank, as did Trenton and Vandalia. Nipsic, though severely damaged, managed to beach and survive the storm.

Alert left Honolulu on 18 April and set a course for Samoa to provide assistance and to escort Nipsic to a repair facility. She reached Apia on 3 May and remained there six days. On 9 May, she stood out of Apia with Nipsic bound for Auckland, New Zealand, but heavy seas forced the two warships back to Apia. From there, they moved to Pago Pago, whence they departed on the 31st. Alert left Nipsic at Fanning Island on 14 June and continued on alone to Honolulu. She returned a month later, and the two warships put to sea for the last leg of the voyage to Honolulu where they arrived on 2 August.

The steamer remained in the Hawaiian Islands until she set sail for the United States on 21 November. She arrived in San Francisco on 9 December and was decommissioned at the Mare Island Navy Yard on 6 February 1890.

Various stations, 1890–93
Alert remained there, inactive, until recommissioned on 9 October 1890, Cdr. R. D. Hitchcock in command. She served initially on the Pacific Squadron, but departed Mare Island on 18 June 1891 for a summer of duty with the Bering Sea Squadron discouraging seal poachers before continuing on to permanent duty on the Asiatic Station. The warship left Unalaska on 22 August and arrived in Yokohama on 10 September. She spent the next two years cruising the waters along the Japanese, Korean, and Chinese coasts and visiting most of the major ports in the area. As in the past, her primary missions consisted of keeping an eye on American interests and showing the flag.

In the summer of 1893, orders arrived sending the ship back to the United States. She departed Yokohama on 15 August; arrived in San Francisco on 21 September; and, two days later, was placed out of commission at the Mare Island Navy Yard.

Pacific station, 1894–98
On 2 April 1894, Alert was recommissioned, Cdr. W. A. Morgan in command. Assigned to the Pacific Squadron once again, she returned to the Bering Sea late in May for a summer of duty suppressing seal poachers. The warship finished that assignment in mid-September and arrived back at San Francisco on the 27th. The following day, she moved to the Mare Island Navy Yard and remained there through the end of the year. On 24 January 1895, Alert, departed Mare Island to take up duty off the Pacific coasts of Central and South America. Proceeding via San Diego and Acapulco, she reached Puerto San José on 15 February. The vessel cruised along the Latin American littoral between Guatemala and Peru for over 16 months keeping watch over U.S. interests in the region. On 2 June 1896, she departed La Libertad, Salvador (now El Salvador), to return home. After stops at several Mexican ports and at San Diego, she reached San Francisco on 17 July.

The steamer remained in the San Francisco Bay area almost two months, spending about half that time at the Mare Island Navy Yard. From 10 September-10 October, she made a round-trip cruise to Port Angeles, Washington. On 18 November, she stood out of San Francisco Bay on her way to conduct drills and gunnery exercises in the Hawaiian Islands. The warship arrived in Honolulu on 9 December and remained in the islands through most of the first three months of 1897. On 22 March 1897, she left Honolulu, set a course for California, and reentered San Francisco harbor on 4 April. After almost two months at San Francisco—five weeks of which were spent at the Mare Island Navy Yard—she embarked upon a voyage to Sitka, Alaska, and back.

The ship returned to San Francisco on 13 July and commenced a two-month sojourn there. On 18 September, she headed back down the west coast to Central American waters and operated off the coast of Guatemala from 4 October-6 November before heading back to San Francisco. Alert arrived there on 29 November and did not put to sea again until sailing for Nicaraguan waters on 8 January 1898. She patrolled the Pacific coast of Nicaragua for almost four months before heading north once more on 29 April. Alert reached San Francisco on 21 May, moved to the Mare Island Navy Yard on the 23d, and was decommissioned there on 4 June 1898.

Training ship, 1901–1907
Following nearly three years of inactivity, the veteran steamer was recommissioned on 11 May 1901, Cdr. Gottfried Blocklinger in command and was assigned to the Pacific Station as a training vessel for apprentice sailors. In that capacity, she made short cruises along the California coast until decommissioned again on 10 December 1903. She was berthed in the Mare Island Navy Yard until transferred on loan to the California Naval Militia sometime early in 1907.

Submarine tender, 1910–1922
Although returned to the Navy on 27 February 1910, Alert was not reactivated until almost two years later. On 25 January 1912, she was placed in commission, in reserve, Lieutenant Charles E. Smith in command, in connection with her fitting out for service as a submarine tender. She was placed in full commission on 1 July 1912, Lt. Charles E. Smith still in command.

Alert tended submarines for the Torpedo Flotilla, Pacific Fleet, at both Naval Submarine Base Pearl Harbor and San Pedro Submarine Base until late in 1917. In executing her new duties, she made short voyages along the California coast in much the same manner as she had done while serving as an apprentice training vessel.

World War I and after
The entry of the United States into World War I necessitated an increase of American naval strength in the Atlantic. Thus, in December 1917, the ship steamed south from San Diego, transited the Panama Canal, and proceeded to Bermuda where she took up duty as base and repair ship.

In April 1918, Alert returned to the west coast and resumed duties as a Pacific Fleet Torpedo Flotilla submarine tender based at San Pedro, California. That assignment occupied her for the remaining four years of her naval career. When the Navy adopted the alphanumeric system of hull designations on 17 July 1920, she was classified AS-4.

Final decommission
On 9 March 1922, Alert was placed out of commission at the Mare Island Navy Yard. She was sold to A. Bercovich Company, Oakland, California, on 29 July.

title: USS Alert (AS-4)


text:
Talk:Ruby Terrill Lomax

Untitled
The text of article was obtained from Library of Congress site. Darwin 23:55, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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Cao Ang

Cao Ang (c.  177 – February or March 197), courtesy name Zixiu, was the eldest son of Cao Cao, a warlord who rose to power towards the end of the Han dynasty and laid the foundation of the state of Cao Wei in the Three Kingdoms period of China. He was killed at the Battle of Wancheng in 197.

Life
Cao Ang was the first son of Cao Cao and his concubine Lady Liu (劉夫人). Lady Liu also bore Cao Cao another son, Cao Shuo (曹鑠), and a daughter, Grand Princess Qinghe (清河長公主). However, as Lady Liu died early, Cao Ang was raised by Cao Cao's first official spouse, Lady Ding (丁夫人), who treated Cao Ang as though he was her own son.

Nothing was recorded in history about Cao Ang's early life, except that he was nominated as a xiaolian (civil service candidate) when he reached the age of adulthood (around 19 years old). In February or March 197, Cao Ang followed his father on a campaign against the warlord Zhang Xiu in Wan (宛; or Wancheng, in present-day Wancheng District, Nanyang, Henan). Zhang Xiu surrendered initially, but rebelled later, launched a surprise attack on Cao Cao and caught him completely off guard. Cao Cao was injured in the right arm by a stray arrow during the battle while his horse, Jueying (絕影), was hit in the neck and leg. Cao Ang could not ride on horseback so he offered his own steed to his father, who managed to escape from Wancheng. Cao Ang later died in battle.

Subsequent events and succession
Lady Ding wept often on Cao Ang's death and accused Cao Cao of getting Cao Ang killed. Cao Cao became angry and sent her back to her family in the hope she might change her mind. When Cao Cao went to see her around 200, she refused to speak to him, and they officially divorced. After Lady Ding's death, Cao Cao often wondered how he could face his son's spirit if he asked about Lady Ding.

In 221, after Cao Pi (another of Cao Cao's sons) ended the Han dynasty and established the state of Cao Wei (which marked the start of the Three Kingdoms period), he granted Cao Ang the posthumous title "Duke Dao of Feng" (豐悼公). Three years later, Cao Ang was posthumously elevated to the status of a prince, so his posthumous title became "Prince Dao of Feng" (豐悼王). In 229, during the reign of Cao Pi's son Cao Rui, Cao Ang's posthumous title was changed to "Prince Min of Feng" (豐愍王).

Cao Ang had no son to succeed him when he died. However, in 222, Cao Wan (曹琬), a son of Cao Ang's half-brother, Cao Jun (曹均), was designated as Cao Ang's heir and was enfeoffed as a Zhongdu Duke (中都公). Later that year, Cao Wan was reassigned as a Zhangzi Duke (長子公). In 254, during the reign of Cao Fang, Cao Wan was promoted to "Prince of Feng" (豐王) and given the princedom "Feng", per Cao Ang's posthumous title. The number of taxable households in his princedom increased through the reigns of Cao Mao and Cao Huan until it reached 2,700. After Cao Wan died, he was posthumously honoured as "Prince Gong of Feng" (豐恭王) and was succeeded by his son, Cao Lian (曹廉).

A tomb discovered at the Cao Cao Mausoleum in Anyang which contained clothes but no human remains may belong to Cao Ang, as his body was never found.

title: Cao Ang


text:
User:KinkoBlast

I'm an 8th grade student in Oregon, Wisconsin, United States of America, North America, Earth, Sol System, Milky Way, Universe. I think. I enjoy videogames and happen to bum alot of stuff of LordRM.

I want the full Polarium! Or a good PC clone.

title: User:KinkoBlast


text:
Gorilla Monsoon

Robert James "Gino" Marella (June 4, 1937 – October 6, 1999), better known by his ring name of Gorilla Monsoon, was an American professional wrestler, play-by-play commentator, and booker.

Monsoon is famous for his run as a villainous super-heavyweight main eventer, and later as the voice of the World Wrestling Federation (WWF), as commentator and backstage manager during the 1980s and 1990s. He also portrayed the on-screen role of WWF President from 1995 to 1997.

In professional wrestling, the staging area just behind the entrance curtain at an event, a position which Marella established and where he could often be found during WWF shows late in his career, is named the "Gorilla Position" in his honor.

Early life
Marella attended Jefferson High School in Rochester, New York, becoming a standout athlete in football, amateur wrestling, and track and field. At the time, he weighed over 300 pounds (136 kg) and was affectionately called "Tiny" by his teammates.

Marella was also a standout athlete after high school at Ithaca College in Ithaca, New York. He continued to wrestle, now weighing over 350 pounds, and took second in the 1959 NCAA Wrestling Championships. He also held several school athletic records, including an 18-second wrestling pin, and several track-and-field distinctions. During the summers he was at Ithaca College, he was a construction worker in Rochester. One of the buildings he helped construct was the Rochester War Memorial Arena.

Marella's size and athletic ability attracted the attention of New York promoter Pedro Martinez, and he went to wrestle for Martinez after graduating from Ithaca in 1959. Gorilla was 6'5" and weighed around 330 pounds when he first started wrestling professionally. By the end of his career, he was up around 375 pounds, although he had weighed as much as 440 pounds at points.

Early career
Marella debuted in 1958, originally billing himself as Gino Marella, a proud Italian American babyface who would sing in Italian prior to his matches. Even after changing his ring name, "Gino" stuck as Marella's nickname among friends and colleagues, including Jesse Ventura, who would call Marella "Gino" on the air. He would work in Toronto, Calgary, St. Louis and Japan. Marella garnered moderate popularity but soon realized that fans paid more attention to outlandish monster heel gimmicks, and they, therefore, made more money. Marella totally revamped his image, growing a long beard and billing himself as Gorilla Monsoon, a terrifying giant from Manchuria. Supposedly born on an isolated farm, "Monsoon" traveled across the countryside with a gypsy caravan wrestling bears, spoke no English, ate raw meat, and drank his victims' blood. The story given on WWWF television was a bit different: his first manager, Bobby Davis, claimed to have discovered Monsoon in Manchuria wading nude in a mountain stream. The Monsoon character was far more successful, and fans were genuinely afraid of him, sparking a huge financial windfall for Marella. In the ring, Monsoon dominated opponents with vicious chops, the dreaded Manchurian Splash, and his signature move, the Airplane Spin.

WWWF/WWF career
In 1963, Vincent J. McMahon reformed the Capitol Wrestling Corporation into the World Wide Wrestling Federation (WWWF) (currently known as World Wrestling Entertainment), breaking his territory away from the National Wrestling Alliance in an attempt to create a new national powerhouse. At the time, the WWWF was the dominant wrestling promotion in the Northeast U.S.. Marella formed a friendship with McMahon, and became a one-sixth shareholder in the WWWF, controlling bookings in several WWWF territories. He also became one of the promotion's top heels, feuding with popular babyface champion Bruno Sammartino in sellout arenas across the country. Despite his huge size, then in excess of 400 pounds, Monsoon had great agility and stamina, often wrestling Sammartino to one-hour time-limit draws.

Monsoon first wrestled Bruno Sammartino for the WWWF World Championship on October 4, 1963, at Roosevelt Stadium, in Jersey City, New Jersey Monsoon qualified by winning a partially televised Ring Wrestling Magazine tournament, where he pinned Killer Buddy Austin in about a minute. Monsoon's disqualification win over Sammartino in NJ triggered a series of rematches at Madison Square Garden, and they would renew the feud again there in 1967. At the end of the Jersey City match, as Monsoon was sitting on the mat, a fan (not part of the show) jumped into the ring and broke the back of a wooden chair over Monsoon's head.

Monsoon teamed up with Killer Kowalski with success. In November 1963, they defeated Skull Murphy and Brute Bernard to win the U.S. Tag Team Championship. The following month, the duo lost the belts to the Tolos Brothers (Chris and John) in Teaneck, New Jersey. Monsoon and Kowalski reunited in the late 1960s to defeat champion Bruno Sammartino and Victor Rivera 2 falls to 1 in Madison Square Garden in a main event, marking the first, and possibly only, time that Sammartino & Rivera lost as a tag team.

Monsoon also teamed with Professor Toru Tanaka in 1967, and they had a number of tag matches in Madison Square Garden. They won a main event on disqualification over Sammartino and Spiros Arion and later lost a Texas Death rematch to the same team. A year later, after defeating teams such as Al Costello & Dr. Bill Miller and Bobo Brazil and Earl Maynard, they went on to lose a main event to Sammartino and Victor Rivera. Monsoon had semi main event matches with Spiros Arion as well as Bobo Brazil in his key heel years.

Also in 1968 he won the IWA World Heavyweight Championship (Australia) defeating Mario Milano on February 2 and dropped the belt to Spiros Arion.

In 1969, Monsoon became a babyface, befriending his former arch-rival when Sammartino rescued him from an attack by "Crazy" Luke Graham, a former tag team partner of Monsoon. The stage was set for Monsoon to become a fan favorite of the 1970s and feud with top heels of the decade, including champion Superstar Billy Graham; he then began to speak English. He turned heel for a short time in 1977 and feuded with André the Giant, and the two engaged in a special boxing match in Puerto Rico (where Monsoon owned stock in the territory), with André winning the match. As a face, he had major wins in Madison Square Garden, including over Killer Kowalski as well as "Big Cat" Ernie Ladd.

On June 1, 1976, a famous incident occurred in Philadelphia involving boxing great Muhammad Ali during a taping for the syndicated WWWF TV show. Ali, preparing for his upcoming crossover bout with Antonio Inoki in Japan later that month, jumped into the ring as Monsoon (who rarely appeared as a wrestler on their TV shows) was concluding a short match against Baron Mikel Scicluna. Ali removed his shirt and started dancing around Monsoon while gesturing and throwing jabs at him, to which Monsoon responded by grabbing Ali in his Airplane Spin and slamming him to the mat. Marella would never reveal whether the incident was preplanned. In an interview, he commented, "I never saw him before and haven't seen him since."

A kind of torch bearer of the Vincent J. McMahon-era WWWF, Gorilla Monsoon was rabidly supported by New York audiences. On June 16, 1980, a young and up-and-coming Hulk Hogan was booked to face him at Madison Square Garden. At the time, Hogan was a widely followed heel character, while Monsoon was still a babyface. However, in order to push the new talent, McMahon told Hulk Hogan to beat Monsoon in under a minute. Upon that outcome, the crowd became livid and chased Hogan when he was leaving the arena, turning over his car. Policemen on horses had to be summoned to quiet the mob.

As the 1980s began, Marella's in-ring career wound down. On August 23, Monsoon put his career on the line in a match against Ken Patera. Monsoon lost and only wrestled a few more matches, retiring several weeks later. Following this he fought only four times: wrestling a six-man tag team match at Madison Square Garden in 1981, a match in 1982 as a substitute for André the Giant where he defeated Swede Hanson, taking part in Big John Studd's "Body Slam Challenge" in 1983, and wrestling at WWC's tenth anniversary show in a loss to Abdullah Tamba in San Juan, Puerto Rico (also in 1983). The next phase of his career began, as the voice and backstage manager of WWF.

After in-ring retirement
In the early 1980s, Vincent J. McMahon's son, Vincent K. McMahon, began assuming the reins of the promotion from his father. The elder McMahon asked his son to take care of long-time employees who had been loyal to him. The younger McMahon agreed, and in 1982, Vince bought Marella's shares in the company in exchange for a guarantee of lifetime employment. As he had been to his father, Marella became a close confidant of the younger McMahon, and assumed a prominent backstage role within the then WWF. Marella would then become an announcer for the WWF starting in 1982. In addition, McMahon needed a new commentary team to head up his television programming, and installed Marella with the recently retired Jesse "The Body" Ventura in 1985.

Marella and Ventura had great chemistry, with Ventura as the pro-heel color commentator and Marella as the pro-face "voice of reason". Marella and Ventura called five of the first six WrestleManias together (the notable exception was WrestleMania 2, where Marella commentated on the Chicago portion of the event with Gene Okerlund, Cathy Lee Crosby and Ernie "The Cat" Ladd while Ventura commentated on the Los Angeles portion with Lord Alfred Hayes and Elvira, Mistress of the Dark).

The Ventura/Monsoon duo of heel and babyface were the original broadcast duo, setting the standard which all who followed would attempt to emulate, especially Ventura's charismatic pro-heel character which was a first of its kind as previous wrestling commentators had almost always been in favor of the fan favorites. The pair commentated on all the WWF pay-per-views together with the exception of the first two SummerSlams and the 1990 Royal Rumble (at SummerSlam 1988 Ventura was the guest referee for the main event so Monsoon commentated with "Superstar" Billy Graham, while Ventura was paired with Tony Schiavone at both SummerSlam 1989 and the Royal Rumble). When Ventura left the WWF in mid-1990, he was replaced in commentary by Monsoon's Prime Time Wrestling co-host, heel manager Bobby "The Brain" Heenan, another duo that subsequent wrestling commentary teams have often tried to emulate. Though the pair were frequently at odds on screen — with Monsoon regularly yelling, "Will you stop?" in response to Heenan's denigration of fan-favorite wrestlers — in real life they formed a close friendship that Heenan often recalled fondly. In his WWE Hall of Fame induction speech at the 2004 ceremony, Heenan finished by saying that only one thing was missing – that he wished Monsoon was there. Other people who were often paired with Monsoon in the broadcast booth included Lord Alfred Hayes, Luscious Johnny Valiant, Johnny Polo, "Superstar" Billy Graham, Hillbilly Jim, Tony Schiavone, Jim Neidhart, Randy Savage and Jim Ross.

Monsoon called the first eight WrestleManias from 1985 to 1992. Monsoon was the lead commentator on the syndicated show, WWF All Star Wrestling, its successor WWF Wrestling Challenge, and the USA Network weekend show, WWF All American Wrestling, as well as hosting the WWF weeknight show, Prime Time Wrestling. Monsoon also served as co-host of Georgia Championship Wrestling on WTBS during McMahon's short-lived ownership of the promotion.

Later career
Marella stepped down as the WWF's lead commentator at WrestleMania IX (where he was Master of Ceremonies) to make way for WCW recruit Jim Ross. He was phased out of Wrestling Challenge with Bobby Heenan and was moved to All-American Wrestling with Lord Alfred Hayes on April 11, 1993. He commentated with Jim Ross on WWF Radio for the broadcasts of SummerSlam 1993, Survivor Series 1993 and Royal Rumble 1994. He returned to the television broadcast team to call the King of the Ring 1994 with Randy Savage as well as covering a few episodes of Monday Night RAW in 1993 and 1994 whenever Vince McMahon was unavailable. He was also called upon sporadically to return to Challenge from 1993 to 1995, calling action with Stan Lane, Ted DiBiase, and Ross again. Monsoon also did various work for Coliseum Video. Marella's last pay-per-view commentary was for the 1994 Survivor Series, with Vince McMahon on play-by-play. Marella remained in his backstage role and appeared on-air frequently, becoming the storyline WWF President in the summer of 1995 (replacing Jack Tunney). The WWF President's role was to arbitrate disputes between wrestlers and make matches, similar to later WWE "general managers".

In January 1996, Monsoon was attacked and (kayfabe) severely injured by Vader: Roddy Piper became interim WWF President until WrestleMania XII, when Marella assumed the position again. Health concerns forced him to relinquish this role during the summer of 1997. Instead of naming a replacement, the WWF decided to retire the role of "President" and introduced Sgt. Slaughter as the new WWF Commissioner in August 1997. Marella's health deteriorated from there. In late 1998, Marella returned briefly to call the international version of WWF Superstars. In 1999, Marella appeared in a WWF Attitude commercial featuring Freddie Blassie, Ernie Ladd, Pat Patterson and Killer Kowalski. He appeared as one of three judges for a Brawl for All contest between Bart Gunn and Butterbean at WrestleMania XV. Because of his frail appearance and rapidly declining health, the camera only focused on Monsoon during his introduction as a judge, for which he received a standing ovation. His final occasion on television with WWF would be as a guest commentator on the August 29, 1999 international version of Superstars.

Personal life
Marella was married to his wife, Maureen, for more than 40 years and had three children: Sharon (born 1960), Joey (1963–1994), and Valerie (born 1966). Víctor Quiñones (1959–2006) was listed in Gorilla's obituary as his son as well.

On July 4, 1994, his son, Joey Marella, fell asleep at the wheel and died in a car accident on the New Jersey Turnpike, while returning from refereeing a WWF event in Ocean City, Maryland. He was not wearing a seatbelt at the time of the crash.

In early 1994, Marella co-hosted the short-lived morning variety/game show Bingo Break on WBFF in Baltimore, Maryland, which also featured fellow WWF on-air personality Sean Mooney as the bingo caller. The program did not acknowledge Marella's wrestling career, and as such he was billed on-camera as Bob Marella rather than as Gorilla Monsoon.

Death and legacy
Marella died on October 6, 1999, of heart failure brought on by complications of diabetes, at his home in Willingboro Township, New Jersey. He was 62 years old. His body was buried next to his son, Joey Marella, at Lakeview Memorial Park in Cinnaminson, New Jersey.

Nick Ravo of The New York Times described Monsoon as "legendary" and "one of the most famous athlete-entertainers ever to don tights". Longtime industry journalist Bill Apter remarked, "He was one of the best heels – what wrestlers call a bad guy – in the business... the Gorilla Monsoon image was genuinely frightening." Todd Martin of the Pro Wrestling Torch commended Monsoon's physical agility, and noted that he became "a significant star in a lot of different places and had a very nice career". Martin reported that fellow wrestlers "generally speak pretty highly" of Monsoon, with particular praise for his movement and portrayal of his character. WE described him as "one of the most feared competitors" in professional wrestling, adding, "Whether in the ring, at the mic or behind the scenes, Robert 'Gorilla Monsoon' Marella will always be remembered as one of the greatest of all-time." He has been inducted into various wrestling halls of fame, including the WWF Hall of Fame in 1994.

Monsoon's announcing has garnered both praise and derision. In the Wrestling Observer Newsletter's annual awards poll, readers voted Monsoon Worst Television Announcer a record six times between 1985 and 1995. Appraising his commentary in 1988, journalist Stately Wayne Manor remarked, "Monsoon is aptly named after a counterproductive wind storm that nobody welcomes." Writer Dave Meltzer referred to conversations with "irate wrestlers in the 80s who hated Monsoon killing their psychology".

Todd Martin of the Pro Wrestling Torch noted that some regard Monsoon as "one of the all-time great announcers", while others feel he was "self-indulgent" and "dismissive of certain wrestlers", and had a tendency to "undermine the drama" by questioning the effectiveness of particular maneuvers. Baltimore Sun journalist Kevin Eck wrote that "a lot of people have fond memories of [Monsoon] from the 1980s boom period in WWF, especially his work with Bobby Heenan". Eck acknowledged the criticism of Monsoon among sections of the audience, but defended his use of absurdity and cliché as "entertaining", and argued that "he sold the angles well and got the characters over". PWInsider's Dave Scherer said of Monsoon, "I did love him as an announcer". Rolling Stone's Joseph Hudak reported that Heenan and Monsoon "are regarded as the greatest color-commentary team in pro-wrestling history", and "had a Martin-and-Lewis like chemistry behind the mic".

Heenan consistently named Monsoon as his favorite announcing partner. In contemplating his "Mount Rushmore of wrestling announcers", veteran commentator Jim Ross stated, "Gordon Solie, Bob Caudle, Lance Russell, Gorilla Monsoon would be four off the top of my head that I would put on there."

Tributes
In a tribute that aired on October 7, 1999, on an episode of WWF SmackDown!, McMahon described Marella as "one of the greatest men I have ever known." WCW commentator Tony Schiavone acknowledged Marella's death on the October 11, 1999, episode of WCW Monday Nitro. Bobby Heenan insisted on doing a tribute to Marella, even though Marella never worked for WCW. Heenan said on-air: "Gorilla will be sadly missed. Now he was one big tough man. He was a decent honest man. And we're all gonna miss him very much. And you know the pearly gates in heaven? It's now gonna be called 'the Gorilla position.' Goodbye, my friend."

He was inducted into the Ithaca College Athletic Hall of Fame in 1973.

When Heenan was inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame in 2004, he ended his acceptance speech with, "Only one thing's missing: I wish Monsoon was here." In 2007, when Anthony Carelli made his debut with WWE, he was given the ring name "Santino Marella", as a tribute.

Marella was inducted into the Section V Wrestling Hall of Fame in 2010 along with longtime childhood friend Frank Marotta who gave a speech on his behalf.

Gorilla Monsoon was posthumously honored at the 50th anniversary show of the World Wrestling Council.

Amateur wrestling

 * Ithaca College
 * Athletic Hall of Fame (1973)

Professional wrestling

 * Cauliflower Alley Club
 * Other honoree (1994)
 * George Tragos/Lou Thesz Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame
 * Class of 2011
 * Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame and Museum
 * Class of 2010
 * World Championship Wrestling (Australia)
 * IWA World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
 * World Wide Wrestling Federation / World Wrestling Federation
 * WWWF United States Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Killer Kowalski (1) and Bill Watts (1)
 * Slammy Award (1 time)
 * Most Evolutionary (1994) – Tied with King Kong Bundy
 * WWF Hall of Fame (Class of 1994)
 * World Wrestling Association (Los Angeles)
 * WWA World Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Luke Graham (1) and El Mongol (1)
 * World Wrestling Council
 * WWC North American Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
 * Wrestling Observer Newsletter
 * Worst Television Announcer (1985, 1991–1995)

title: Gorilla Monsoon


text:
Talk:Baháʼu'lláh/Archive 1

Comments from 2003
ok, the aside on the front page might better go here.

Baha'is are sometimes asked "why all these pictures of architecture?

(Note that I recently added a photo of the shrine of the Bab in Haifa to the page on the Bab as well) -- Baha'is use photos of the shrines for several reasons, first, respect for the person of the manifestation of God, and, of course, there IS no photo of the Bab. Still there is a photo of Baha'u'llah taken as a passport photo on his entry into Ottoman turkey. The original is an object of adoration during Baha'i pilgramage in Haifa, Israel. A copy of it exists on the web, since it dates from the 1800's it clearly has no copyright issues, and is freely linkable.

Still, I'm gonna ask for some restraint about posting it here.

and If I went over the edge of the wiki way on the front page with that note, I'll be happy to delete it. Rick Boatright 00:03 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)

Please leave links in even if you disagree with the linked group as removing links which are there to maintain a neutral point of view can result in permamenet removal from wikipedia of the one erasing links. multiman

Linking to Orthodox Bahá'í Faith
Please stop linking this article to the "Orthodox" Bahá'í Faith. The link is totally irrelevant - it is as if Jehovah's Witnesses would put a link to their site on the article about Jesus, just because they believe in him. This article must be a short biography about Bahá'u'lláh. Thank you. --Saed 20:04, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Um, it is perfectly reasonable to put a the link to the Othodox Baha'i faith. Look at say John the Baptist, 5 religions are mentioned because they believe in him. You are in the wrong not the link. Besides, what do you have against the othodox babs anyway? You have removed every linking to them. Yes, we can see exactly what you change. --metta,  T he  S unborn  ☸  20:09, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * one thing is a religion, another is a sect(constituted by a dozen people)!

 * I think that a link to the Orthodox Baha'i faith is valid - although I completely understand the Bahá'ís view of this.  The article about Jesus does link to the article about Jehovah's Witnesses  - as it should.  While I recognise and sympathise with the Baha'is view, the fact is that another group also claims a link to Bahá'u'lláh and they have been judged significant enough to have an article here.  To not link to the orthodox Bahá'ís is to make a point of view judgement on their validity - something that is outside the bounds of Wikipedia.  Regards -- sannse (talk) 20:11, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * isnt making a judgement that they are significant enough also POV?

I have nothing against the group of the Orthodox Bahá'ís. It is a matter of relevancy. Should we put on the article about Jesus every single link to the more than 20,000 groups, parties, sects and movements that are associated with him? The article about Bahá'u'lláh is a biography about him and his life. During the lifetime of Bahá'u'lláh (and even during the lifetime of his son ´Abdu'l-Bahá) the Orthodox Bahá'ís didn't even exist, so they have nothing to do with his biography. Thank you for your cooperation. --Saed 20:19, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * All I can say is so what? It doesn't matter the just because they didn't exist at the death of Bahá'u'lláh. They are an important religious phenominon. We list things with relavence. The 10,000 missing christian denominations are not there because they are not an important religious phenominon. They have their own list and are mentioned there. Orthodox Bahá'ís are important for two reasons, they are the second largest Baha'i group in the world. And two, their existance is interesting because the Baha'i religion is not supposed to have an factioning, it is against dogma.

 * In this case there are not 20,000 groups - there are only two (one much smaller than the other to be sure). Both recognise Bahá'u'lláh as a manifestation of God (if I am remembering my terminology right - I am not Bahá'í) and both have an article on Wikipedia.  And both articles should be linked to from here.  To do otherwise is introducing the point of view that Orthodox Bahá'ís are not legitimate.  The Orthodox Bahá'ís would say that they did exist before the death of Bahá'u'lláh (and Abdu'l-Bahá).  They would say that they are the true and legitimate continuation of that line - and whether you or I agree with that is beside the point.  We have to report the facts and not comment on our own beliefs - that is the essence of NPOV .  Regards -- sannse (talk) 20:36, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Dear Sannse, I agree with you that we must report facts. What are the facts? The Orthodox Bahá'ís have claimed for forty years now that they have a membership of more than thousand believers, yet every insider knows there is only one "leader" somewhere in the US with a handful of very active followers on the Internet trying to tell everyone that they are the second largest group after the "Heterodox Bahá'is". Of course they are the second largest group, because they are the only one, there is no other group! So if I would create a website about my new Bahà'í sect and had I five followers could I make it to Wikipedia? Just because someone seems to be very active on the Internet is a legitimation for him to be included in Wikipedia? You can go to Encylopaedia Britannica, check your lexikons about religion, look in theological publications etc - there is no word of the Orthodox Bahá'ís. They seem to be big, because they are so active on the Internet (and on Wikipedia it seems). --Saed 21:00, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I think that at least part of the problem is that it is difficult to verify the significance of this group. There appears to be propaganda on both sides (please note the word "appears", I do not wish to slur either side).  Perhaps there is some way to find a provably unbiased account of the significance of this group.  I know that I was aware of them before I came to Wikipedia (I have an interest in religions in general and Bahá'í in particular), and I think an article on them is justified - and if an article is justified then a link from this article is also important.  If there are discrepancies in the reporting of membership and significance of the group then that should be included in the Orthodox Bahai Faith article.. but there would still be a case for inclusion of a link in this article in that instance.  Removing all references to this group is not acceptable and feels like censorship - that is not what I believe Wikipedia should be about  -- sannse (talk) 21:18, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * With the above in mind, I have re-added the link. -- sannse (talk) 18:49, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * And have restored the link in the absence of further discussion here -- sannse (talk) 18:21, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

--- Below is a comment from User:Foant, moved from the article by sannse (talk) 21:49, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC):

I still wanna se an image of the guy. Where can i find it? I ask they respect my curioisty.

End of moved text

such "alternative" groups are very very small and are already mentioned in the main article, mentioning OBF everywhere is like mentioning "Potters of God" on every Chrstian related article. the OBF look "big" because there is pretty much one or two persons around the world that create a lot of different sites about them, to give the impression that they are very significant. plz dont let wikipedia get hoaxed.. --Cyprus2k1 08:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There are 70 localities where Orhtodox reside, there are poeple that or 4th generation orhtodox now, so grow up. Also, at this point I am re-again putting the link in as both groups claim the smae founder, and as wiki forbids the erasing of links, further if the erasieris continue and you want an erasier war then be prepared for soem unpleasant consequences on your major sites.

Baha'u'llah's picture
Just something to add...I am a Baha'i and the picture of Baha'u'llah for me is disrespectful not so much for the fact that it's viewable on the web (even though I do object to this), but also because it's not an accurate picture. The picture was actually tampered with after it was taken for the following reasons: 1. the top of Baha'u'llah's taj is not supposed to be black. This tampered picture originally appeared in a Persian book on philosophy that was written by a man who was anti-Baha'i, I believe either in the late 1800's or early 1900's (but I could be mistaken). He said that he colored the top of the hat because he "wanted it to be the same color as Baha'u'llah's soul" (I am paraphrasing, but may God forgive him). 2. A piece of Baha'u'llah's eyebrow has been "taken out" of the picture which makes Him look wild eyed. 3. His hair and beard is colored white, even though it is historical fact that his beard and hair were completely black (from continuous henna) his whole life. Persian men of royal lineage (His family was related to an ancient line of Persian kings) traditionally wore their hair to about shoulder length and kept their hair hennad black their whole lives. Obviously this picture is "factually inaccurate" on several grounds. Is this good enough reason to take it down? Can someone please respond to this? Thanks

As mentioned in the article, for Baha'is, Baha'u'llahs picture is not shown for signs of respect. Most Baha'is do know that a photo exists outside the Baha'i archives building, but don't even want to go and search for it. It is not a minor part of their (my) faith.

I think that the message could be changed to something that says that Baha'u'llahs picture exists and can be found on the web, but as a sign of respect for Baha'is that the precise link not exist. If people really do want to see the picture they can go ahead and find it. -- NavidAzizi 19:27, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Some more info. The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, who was appointed the successor, to Abdu'l Baha (who was appointed the successor to Baha'u'llah) has written the following.  "There is no objection that the believers look at the picture of Bahá'u'lláh, but they should do so with the utmost reverence, and should also not allow that it be exposed openly to the public, even in their private homes."  So just for the sake of respect I ask that the precise link not be posted. -- NavidAzizi 19:32, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * The question is - should Wikipedia articles be restricted out of respect to its subjects, and if so, who should define respect - neutral Wikipedia users or the subject. What if a spokesman for the US Army asks to remove the images of prison torture "out of respect"? Or children of a Nazi war criminal ask to remove his photo "out of respect"? (not equating Bahaullah with any of those, of course). My opinion is that Wikipedia is not a Bahai encyclopedia, so in no way should writing of articles on Bahai faith (including related articles, such as this one) be governed by the principles of Bahai faith. If we can't put a link to the photo, because Bahais do not want so, can we put criticism of the church or would that be disrespectful too?

 * So my view is that Wikipedia can make no such concessions to what material is included. This is an article about a person. There is a photo of that person. That photo is in public domain. Ergo, the photo should be included (or the link to it, it doesn't make much difference). Paranoid 19:50, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree. Furthermore, this is a biography article, and the only picture of him is integral to writing it. On wikipedia, informing our users trumps desires by religious adherents to not include it. →Raul654 06:31, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

 * you see, Bahai´s usually see photos(there are at least two or three, the one in this article is the worst quality one) of Baha'u'llah on pilgrimage(which is a special moment to bahai´s), by showing the photo in the article without any warning is very ofensive/shocking to bahais. im not saying the photo should be deleted, but at least put a wikilink to it instead.. - --Cyprus2k1 05:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I think this photo is the best one, because the ones that the Bahai Center in Israel shows the pilgrims are retouched photos (in fact one of them is a bogus one based on this photo) and they are worked out to make Bahaullah look "more presentable", which, if you think about it, is actually an insult to Bahaullah. If you believe in this guy, then just accept him the way he really looked.  If he is not "good looking enough" for your taste, then shop around for a better looking prophet or "manifestation of God".  The authenticity of this passport photo has been officially acknowledged by the Bahai authorities.  --Amir 15:57, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * thats not the point, i dont care how to photo looks like, i will copy-paste what i said: "you see, Bahai´s usually see photos(..) of Baha'u'llah on pilgrimage(which is a special moment to bahai´s), by showing the photo in the article without any warning is very ofensive/shocking to bahais. im not saying the photo should be deleted, but at least put a wikilink to it instead.. "

 * I have got to say I find the picture mildly offensive. I implore everybody to consider changing it into a link as suggests in the rule of thumb - 11. It is hard to explain to a non-Baha'i but this really is very important.  -- Tomhab 16:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Should definitely be a link - and it makes a HELL of a lot of difference. The Baha'i attitude to Baha'u'llah's photo basically derives from the Islamic prohibition on representative art (certainly, if there were photos of Muhammad around, you'd get vociferous complaints from Muslims if you had it there on the Muhammad article).  Imagine if you'd illustrated the article on Jesus with a photo of one of the more controversial artworks depciting him (say, "Piss Jesus", or something like that).  This picture was taken from a passport photo of Baha'u'llah, as Amir says, but it is only public domain because it appeared in a book full of knocking copy by a Christian missionary out to discredit the Baha'is.  People who don't like Baha'is publicise this picture because they know that to do so is offensive to Baha'is.  That is the only context I have ever seen this picture appear on the web.  PaulHammond 20:55, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

Factual accuracy
This article looks like most of the claims were taken directly from Bahai myths/scripture. Wikipedia cannot contain information, which can't be independently verified. I think that without references to some independent history books/studies (i.e. not Bahai texts) some of the information may need to be removed or at least rephrased to indicate ambiguity and uncertainty. Paranoid 19:58, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * The references have been stated in the article. E.G. Browne was an English Historian who met with Baha'u'llah while he was imprisoned in Akka.  He was not a Baha'i and he wrote a book called A Travellor's Narrative where he wrote about both the Babi and Baha'i histories.  You can find the book in some libraries.  I urge you to go out and find info which is not in accordance with the article.  The things that could be taken out of the article are what people felt and how they reacted to Baha'u'llah and I am willing to remove them if necessary.  I am going to remove the disputed tag, until you can find sources that say that the information in the article is wrong. --  NavidAzizi 20:15, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * I was under the impression that A Traveller's Narrative was written by the son of Bahaullah (and translated by Browne?). The first line in the introduction says "This book is the history of a proscribed and persecuted sect written by one of themselves." . Clearly this is not an objective source. Ditto for the second reference. Please do not remove the disputed tag. It is not intended to imply that the current version is blatantly wrong (or even wrong at all). The only thing it implies is that there is an unresolved dispute, which there is (we are disputing whether there are sufficient references). It should attract the attention and stimulate other users to contribute to resolving the dispute. Paranoid 22:30, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * No that is another book called "New History" which is a translation by E.G. Browne of a Babi before Baha'u'llah even declared; it has none of the history of Baha'u'llah's exiles and his declaration. A Travellor's Narative is is E.G. Browne's own accounts when he went to the middle east.  Again, please point out what is disputed, and only then place the disputed tag.  Other than the picture, I can't see why the disputed tag is there.  -- NavidAzizi 04:52, Jan 15, 2005.

 * I've left the disputed tag there, but I'd like a list of disputed items, or I will remove it in a couple of days. -- NavidAzizi 05:01, Jan 15, 2005.

 * Paranoid is right. In fact, Edward Brownse, in another book talks about some gory details of how the Bahais and Azalis brutalized one another, in particular, how the Bahais were intolerant of the Azalis. The Bahais today know these facts very well, but do their best to keep such mess under the carpet. As for "extremely offenisve to the Bahais", well, tough.  First of all, let's be honest, the reason you don't want this photo publicized is because he looks like Rasputin, or he looks like the crook that he was who hijacked the Babi movement.  If "out of respect" you don't want his photo displayed, then how come the photos of his son Abdulbaha is all over the palce?  Because he was more photogenic and his appearance is more "marketable".  If you think about it deeper, it is you who is being offensive to him by saying that his appearance is not good enough!  But as it was pointed out to you, Wikipedia is not a Bahai encyclopedia.  It is stupid to put a photo of some house in this article, when a photo of Bahaullah is available.  And this photo is authentic and is his passport photo. Martin2000 22:57, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Baha'is see Baha'u'llah as a messenger of God, and as so displaying his image is unrespecful. It has nothing with anything with the way he looks.  I'm going to go back to Paranoid's suggestion of jsut linking to it. -- NavidAzizi 04:52, Jan 15, 2005.

 * You removed most of my contributions to the article, which were objective and historical facts. Why?  Which of my contributions were wrong?  Also, you removed the part where I said Bahaullah escaped from Persia and went to Baghdad (just like many other Babis had done), you changed that to "he was exiled from Persia", yet, a look at the history of the page Subh-i Azal shows that you (NavidAzizi) wrote explicitly that he "escaped" to Baghdad.  What evidence do you have that Bahaullah (who at the time of his escape wasn't even the leader of the Babis) was exiled to Baghdad?  So this clearly shows that you are dishonest and you are promoting Bahaullah while at the same time demoting Subh-i Azal, consistent with your other "contributions" on this subject.  I will give you a chance to correct all these misdeeds and give the article an honest contribution, or else, be prepared that someone who knows the history of the Babis/Azalis/Bahais very well, will rewrite the whole chain of articles.  Martin2000 05:28, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Which of your contributions were wrong? Here's a list of your contributions and my comment to them:

1. "Although it seems highly strange that a distinguished nobleman in the court of a Persian King, not provide any formal schooling for his son. Even more strange is that after his father's passing, they would offer a high-ranking position to a person with no formal schooling."

So that addition is a POV, and I accept what was there originally could be seen as POV, and is thus removed.

2. "leadership was with Mirza Yahya ."

It is true that the Bab said that Mirza Yahya was the leader, but he did not guide anyone and that is why people looked to Baha'u'llah. But you are right, and even though it the original article did write Mirza Yahya was the leader lower down, I have moved it up.

3. he escaped from Persia to Baghdad, then a city in the Ottoman Empire and joined many other Bábís in Baghdad. At that time, the official leader of the Bábís was Bahá'u'lláh younger half-brother Mirza Yahya Nuri, known az "Subh-i Azal" who was appointed as the leader of the movement by the Báb himself, when the Báb was in prison.

Baha'u'llah did not escape. The authorities who had imprisoned him, let him go after they had ordered his exile. He was never really free, since they only let him go AFTER the exile order. If he had escaped, why would he go to Baghdad. Mirza Yahya was in a different prison in the north of Iran. Baha'u'llah's travel to Baghdad had nothing to do with Mirza Yahya's travel to Baghdad. The particlular reason that Baha'u'llah was exiled was the Baha'u'llah was the one whom the Persian prime-minister believed had instructed the assassination attempt on the Shah of Iran, and thus they wanted to get rid of him. Mirza Yahya was already in prison during the time of the assassination attempt.

4. "success among Bábís started a split in the Bábís community, and the followers of Subh-i-Azal became known az "Azali Bábís" and the followers of Bahá'u'lláh became known az "Bahái Bábís" -- later, they became simply known az "Azalis" and "Baháis""

You are right, except that the split happened after Baha'u'llah claimed he was the one whom the Bab has prophesized. I moved it to that part of the document.

5. "According to non-Bahá'í historians, the reason for the Ottoman government sending both the Bahá'ís and Azalis out of Baghdad, was the constant violence and brutality between the two sects. Eventually Bahá'u'lláh was exilted to Akka (now in Israel) and Subh-i Azal was sent to Cyprus."

This is not true at all, the violence if you call it was purely in words, except for Baha'u'llah's poisoning.

6. "According to the Bahá'is during"

I kept this there. You're right.

So in general, a lot of your changes were correct, there were POV in the article, and the article is updated to reflect a better version. Thank you for pointing them out. But the espace from the Siyah-Chal is plainly false. So please tell me what else is wrong with this article or any of the other articles I have edited. I will change the Mirza Yahya page to make less POV but that article is generally does not have a POV. NavidAzizi 06:20, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

One other thing I wanted to add is that you say I wrote the Mirza Yahya page. Actually that is not true, I just added stuff from Encyclopedia Britannica 1911. You can find the encyclopedia article here as linked to by the the Wikipedia article 1911_Encyclop%E6dia_Britannica.

Particularly in the Brittanica article you can see the following text (even with OCR errors). Note that britannica says Mirza Yahya escaped, and note that it says he lived in great seclusion. I did not say these things. Most wikipedians accept the 1911 Britannica as neutral and true.

 * The Bflb was succeeded on his death by MIrth Yahy of Nflr (at that time only about twenty years of age), who escaped to Bagdad, and, under the title of Subh-i-Ezel ( the Morning of Eternity ~),became the pontiff of the sect. He lived, however, in great seclusion, leaving the direction of affairs almost entirely in the hands of his elder halfbrother (born 12th November 1817), MIrth Husayn All, entitled Ba/ui ulld/i ( the Splendour of God ), who thus gradually became the most conspicuous and most influential member of the sect, though in the Iqdn, one of the most important polemical works of the Babis, composed in 1858-1859, he still implicitly recognized the supremacy of Subh-i-Ezel NavidAzizi 06:54, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't mean that he escaped form the Siyah-chal, what I mean is that after he was released from the Siyah-chal, he escaped out of Persia as many other Babis did at the time, because after the failed assassination attempt, it was extremely unsafe for the Babis in Persia. Bahaullah made a conscious decision to take his family to Baghdad where there already existed a sizable Babi community.  To my knowledge, there is no authentic evidence to support the claim that he was sent to exile by the authorities.  In fact, I can't even remember having read or seen any historical evidence (other than the Bahai literature) that he was even imprisoned in Persia.  This, I have only read in Bahai literature, but not elsewhere.

 * On another note, I have no problem with a link to his photo, but honestly, for the life of me I can't understand why it is "offensive" to have his photo in the article. In all honesty, to me it seems that the Bahais are actually insulting the guy by indirectly rejecting his appearance.  Wouldn't every Christian or Muslim have loved to know exactly what Jesus or Muhammed looked like?!!  The claim that "out of respect we don't want his photo here" is indeed strange and even lame -- but I will not insist, because in my heart I feel that the real reason for this objection is because the Bahais consider his photo to be ... hmmm ... "unmarketable".  That is like saying "we love the guy, we just wish he looked a little better so we could comfortably include his photo in the article"!! Martin2000 07:11, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * For the picture, a couple reasons. One is so that the picture does not become an icon, where people idolize the icon and not the teachings.  Secondly like I wrote about, Shoghi Effendi wrote not to view the image.  There is a strong link of authority in the Baha'i Faith, and when Shoghi Effendi has written not to place the image in public places, most Baha'is do listen.  You might call this listening to authority a restriction of freedom, but Baha'is see it as a way of conserving unity and protecting it (not eliminating it) from divisions.  The point about people seeing this authority as a restriction to personal freedom is in the main Wikipedia article on the Baha'i Faith.

 * As for the escape/exile to Baghdad, you are partly right, he wasn't exiled to Baghdad, but was told he had to leave the country (and thus an exile). He was given the choice to choose the destination of the exile, he chose Baghdad. I don't know why Baha'u'llah chose Baghdad.  And I don't know if he chose it because Babais were already there or if the other Babis followed Baha'u'llah to Baghdad.   Actually the persian authorities wanted to execute Baha'u'llah just like they did to the Bab, that would have been the easiest thing to do.  But since people in shah's court knew Baha'u'llah and his father they asked for proof that he was part of the failed assassination.  So the next best thing was to get him out of the country.  NavidAzizi 15:10, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * Hello Navid. I have to disagree with your assertion here.  A copy of Bahaullah's Iranian passport page(s) is on the official Bahai web site (as well as on other web sites).  According to his passport, he had requested to visit the Shiite holy sites in then Ottoman Empire (modern day Iraq).  So it seems that he had told the authorities that he is going for shiite holy site pilgrimage, and he was taking his wives with him.  According to his passport, he took 4 women with him, and 2 sons.  Any reasonable person will think that he escaped out of Persia in this way, and he was not asked to leave.  His passport clearly indicates that the passport will expire in one year, which was the standard expiration date for passports issues at that time.  At this time his half-brother Sobh-i Azal was already the leader of the Babi community in Baghdad, and when Bahaullah joined him, Sobh-i Azal put him in charge of much of the affairs of the movement.  From that point on, Bahaullah went on to accept Subh-i Azal's leadership of the Babis for almost 10 years without any incidents until he came up with some ideas of his own.  It certainly seems that Bahaullah planned to leave Persia and join the Babi community in Baghdad; and all the melodramatic stuff such as "he was forced to leave Persia with very little food and supplies etc...." is bogus and should be taken out of the article.  --Amir 16:23, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Check the BBC article in the references, it clearly says exiled. Check the 1988 Encyclopedia Article on the Baha'i Faith, it says quote "He was released in January 1853 and exiled to Baghad." If you read the rest of this discussion, you will see that Baha'u'llah was banished from Persia, he was free to go any place outside of Iran, and yes CHOSE Baghdad, but that doesn't been he was not exiled, he had to leave Persia.  -- Fadeaway919 18:50, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

 * OK fine, he had to leave Persia. So he took 4 women with him (apparently 2 were his wives, and 2 other -- probably concubines) and went to Baghdad. Later in Baghdad he married his third wife.  He had three wives at the same time.  This is not only against his own teachings, it is even against Babi teachings.  So even as a Babi he was not adhering to the principles.  The article says at age 27 he had accepted the Babi principles.  What does this tell us about Bahaullah's personality?  It is also a fact that for 10 years after he went to Baghdad the Babi leader was Subh-i Azal and Bahaullah was playing second fiddle to him. The article says that when he moved to Baghdad, the Babis turned to him for guidance.  This is a historical falsification and cannot be supported by any reliable evidence.  In fact, the reverse of it can be easily shown by historical evidence. --Amir 05:21, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Regarding the people looking for guidance from Baha'u'llah (1) From the Encyclopedia Brittanica (1988) "He was released in January 1853 and exiled to Bag had. There Bahá'u'lláh's leadership revived the Bábí community." (2) From the BBC article "On arrival, he met followers of the Bab and his influence grew to the extent that it caused dissension, conflict and jealousy amongst the followers of the Bab." and "In Baghdad, he found the Babi community had become dispirited and divided. It seemed that his brother had not provided effective leadership, so Baha'u'llah spent the next 7 years teaching the basic teachings of the Bab by both word and example."

 * Regarding the people that travelled with him to Baghdad were his wives, his sister and his daughter.

 * Regarding Baha'u'llah having more than one wife, even though his own teachings say that you can have only one wife. He had married more than one wife (in accordance with the teachings of Islam) long before he received the message of his claimed prophethood in 1853, and long before he accepted the Bab's message.  Furthermore he wrote the law of marriage in his time in Akka in the 1873, again long after he had more than one wife (again in accordance with the teachings of Islam, which he followed during his youth and young adulthood).  -- Fadeaway919 05:52, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * He married his third wife in Baghdad. For quite some time he had three wives at the same time.  He even made multiple children with these wives.  Can we be honest here for a second?  There is no graceful way to excuse his three wives at the same time.  The best thing to do is to just accept the facts as facts.  He had three wives at the same time, and he married his third wife in Baghdad.  He had married the first two while still living in Iran. So even as a Babi, he was breaking the principles of Babism.  Anyway, can you please include in the article that he had three wives at the same time?  --Amir 06:12, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * And did not Moses commit murder, one of the 10 commandments. The laws of one dispensation always take time to be completely applied.  Even now, not all of the Baha'i laws revealed in the Kitab-i-Aqdas are applied to Baha'is as explained by Abdu'l-Baha and continued by the Universal House of Justice.  Abdu'l-Baha explains that some of the laws are for future times when the world is not the same.  I'll add the personal life of Baha'u'llah in the article.  -- Fadeaway919 06:24, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * Just another note to prove that the laws of the Arabic Bayan were not applied right away was that Mirza Yahya (Subh-i-Azal), the sucessor of the Bab, also took a second wife after the Bab died. -- Fadeaway919 06:36, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, in Babism you can have two wives. As you very well know, this is also the case with Bahaullah's own writing, which was later "explained" by Abdul-Baha that when Bahaullah said you can have two wives, it really mean only one !!  :-)  --- so yes, Subh-i Azal took a second wife, but according to Babism he was not doing anything wrong. In both the Bayan and the Aqdas it is CLEARLY indicated that up to two wives is allowed.  --Amir 06:56, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * When and WHY did this discussion became about the wives of Baha'u'llah?? and whats the point anyway? - --Cyprus2k1 14:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * It's true that there is no point, I would have this discussion with Amir1 offline, but he has not set up his e-mail address in Wikipedia. I would like to correct some misconceptions about Mirza Yahya's wives though, and I'll do it in the talk page of Mirza Yahya.   Fadeaway919 17:17, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * This article is about Bahaullah. The fact that he had three wives at the same time is very relevant and quite important.  Why do you express a surprise?    This information is going into the article, just as soon as I find a bit of time.  --Amir 20:22, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Another thing, please show me Baha'u'llah's picture on the official Baha'i website .  You won't find because it's not there.  -- Fadeaway919 19:10, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

 * I never said the official Bahai web site has his picture on their site. Please read again what I wrote. I said the Bahai officials have indeed acknowledged that this photo of Bahaullah is an authentic one (in response to a letter from a Bahai asking specificially about this photo) but they have said that this is not one of the photos of Bahaullah that they show to the pilgrims in Israel when they visit.  --Amir 05:21, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * What you wrote "A copy of Bahaullah's Iranian passport page(s) is on the official Bahai web site." -- Fadeaway919 05:52, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * That's right, I wrote that. A copy of the first page of his Iranian passport is on http://bahai-library.com web site.  Isn't that one of the official Bahai web sites?  --Amir 06:02, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * As written on the bottom of http://bahai-library.com "Managed by Jonah Winters and a team of contributors. This site is not endorsed by any Bahá'í institution and is not affiliated with the International Bahá'í Library." -- Fadeaway919 06:10, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * Amir, your comment certainly suggested to me that you thought Baha'u'llah's photo appeared on the official Baha'i web site. If you didn't mean to say or suggest that, then you have certainly been unusually careful in choosing your words here.  I doubt it appears on Jonah Winter's site - presumably the reference to his passport there is one of the pages that does not contain his photo.  The Baha'i taboo against casually displaying Baha'u'llah's image is very strong, so loyal Baha'is like Jonah are not going to put his picture up.  Baha'u'llah's picture in all cases only appears on the sites of people who wish to criticise and offend Baha'is.  PaulHammond 03:26, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, I meant there is a picture of the main page of his Iranian passport, dated 1853, which does not contain his photograph. Also, it seems that one Bahai is blaming me for having used that site and another Bahai is calling it the site of a "loyal Bahai" -- can you please make up your minds?  My reference to his "passport photo" which may have been the cause of this confusion for you and Navid is probably form another section of this page, when I mentioned something regarding his photo, I think, to Cyprus2k1.  --Amir 10:06, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * It sounded to me like you were saying "This official Baha'i site contains Baha'u'llah's picture, so it must be okay for me to use it here". This is not the case, and Baha'is really do have a strong taboo against the casual use of their Manifestation's picture.  Amir, people are not "blaming you", they are trying to explain the situation.  Jonah Winters explains on his site that his work has no official status - Navid has reproduced that site's disclaimer above.  But that Jonah Winters is a loyal Baha'i (and therefore would not reproduce Baha'u'llah's image anywhere on his site) is also the case.  The official Baha'i site is at http://www.bahai.org   Incidentally, you have also made an incorrect assumption about me.  I am a non-Baha'i.

 * On a more general point, the talk-pages aren't meant to be a place for debating who is right and who is wrong. We're supposed to be working making this article better, and working towards agreement, that's good Wikiquette.  I am just about to make a suggestion to that end here. - PaulHammond 12:59, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

 * Also I have never contested that the photo is not of Baha'u'llah, it is indeed a photo of Baha'u'llah. You might even notice that I've put the photo back when other people have deleted it, even though I don't agree with it being there  -- Fadeaway919 06:00, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * Amir1, I was wrong in the point of Mirza Yahya escape. Mirza Yahya was not in prison and he did not escape from prison.  After the failed assassination attempt, Mirza Yahya did leave to Bagdad, but since the authorities were looking for him (as they were for many other Babis after the assassination attempt, including Baha'u'llah) some texts (including the pro-Azali books) use the word escape for his travel to Baghdad. -- Fadeaway919 20:02, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

 * I also have found a non-Baha'i source which says Baha'u'llah was exiled. The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation has a series of documents on different Religions and Ethics .  In the Baha'i section, you can find the following quotes  "The prime minister of Persia decided that it was preferable for Baha'u'llah to be banished from the state and he was released from prison in 1853. He was stripped of his wealth and possessions and travelled to Baghdad with his wife."

 * Furthermore, in regards to his schooling "In his early life he had a relatively limited education (which was normal for the class from which he came). He learned horsemanship (he was known as a fine horseman), swordsmanship, poetry and calligraphy (he was also renowned as an excellent poet and calligrapher). His Islamic education was strictly non-technical, but despite this, his knowledge of Islam (and of other religions) was far beyond what could have been expected of someone from the wealthy governing class."   In general the BBC site confirms a lot of the stuff I removed in the past couple days.  NavidAzizi 22:36, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * I have gone through the article and made sure it is in accordance with the BBC article noted above (and in the references). This is a non-Baha'i source.  I will wait a couple days, and if there is no objection to the changes, I will remove the disputed tag -- NavidAzizi 02:53, Jan 16, 2005 (UTC)

One additional non-Baha'i source. I have just read the 1988 Encyclopedia Brittanica; it states clearly that Baha'u'llah was exiled from Persia to Baghdad. NavidAzizi 22:49, Jan 16, 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Baháʼu'lláh/Archive 1


text:
Catalan Bay

Catalan Bay (La Caleta) is a bay and fishing village in Gibraltar, on the eastern side of The Rock away from Westside.

Etymology
Although the origin of Catalan Bay's name is documented, a couple of theories co-exist. Documentary evidence suggests that the bay is named after a group of around 350 Catalan servicemen believed to have settled there after having assisted the Anglo-Dutch forces who captured Gibraltar during the War of Spanish Succession on 4 August 1704. Evidence supports the theory that Catalans settled in Catalan Bay giving rise to the above etymological definition.

The name La Caleta (meaning 'small bay or cove') considerably pre-dates that of Catalan Bay. The fishing villages of La Atunara (La Línea de la Concepción, Spain) and La Caleta are mentioned in a Royal Dispatch of 6 March 1634, being under the jurisdiction of the "Tercio del Mar de Marbella y Estepona" in the Kingdom of Granada. Since it has been called La Caleta for much longer than it has been called ''Catalan Bay. The first mention of Catalan Bay'' was probably, at least, in the mid-eighteenth century, between the second and third siege of Gibraltar (1727-1779). It already appeared on William Faden's map (dressed in 1769-1775 and published in 1782), or in John Cheevers's map (1785). Before that, it probably was named "Catalan Battery", "Catalan Beach" or "Playa de los Catalanes".

In 1704, during the capture of Gibraltar by an Anglo-Dutch combined operation, an expedition landed there of around 350 Catalans followers of Charles of Austria and commanded by Prince Georg von Hessen Darmstadt (Catalonia's deputy and delegate of Charles of Austria) and general Joan Baptista Basset. They most likely came to Gibraltar in at least five ships, as among the lists of Catalan expeditionaries there are five vessel owners (from Arenys de Mar, Barcelona, Cubelles, Mataró, and Sant Feliu de Guixols). The Catalans formed two companies, an artillery company (called "Catalan Battery") and an infantry company of mountain fusiliers (called "Catalan Company of Miquelets",commanded by captain Jaume Burguy). Both protected the isthmus of Gibraltar and attacked mountain areas of the Rock against Spanish grenadiers. Some of the surnames of the Catalans who participated in the conquest are: Andreu, Armenter, Auger, Basset, Bertran, Besart, Boix, Bonavida, Bosch, Burguy, Canovas, Caramany, Carreras, Casamitjana, Castells, Cateura, Clavell, Constans, Corrons, Cortès, Esplugas, Estanyol, Estaper, Esteve, Fabregas, Ferrer, Fonollós, Fontanet, Freixes, Frutó, Gil, Goy, Llofriu, Llopis, Martí, Massana, Matalonga, Mulet, Navarro, Nebot, Oliver, Ortas, Pausà, Pi, Pons, Pujol, Rabassa, Ribas, Roca, Rossell, Roset, Rovira, Ruaix, Salvat, Sanromà, Serrallonga, Siurana, Soler, Trebó, Trias, Trullàs, Vidal, Virolà, Viudes.

Subsequently, the conquest, some of these Catalan soldiers settled in Gibraltar, after the departure of the majority of troops used in the conquest, and helped establish the first military checkpoint of Gibraltar. The Catalan Alfons de la Capella, lawyer of the Royal Council of Catalonia, became a judge in Gibraltar. The Catalan Josep Corrons was appointed Alcaide of the Sea (responsible for the harbour) and later was appointed Sergeant Major of Gibraltar. The Catalan Andreu Martí (one of the first to take the stronghold of the port in the conquest of the Rock) was responsible for directing the work of the prisoners after the conquest. The Catalan Jeroni Fàbregas was responsible for the distribution of ammunition.

In the 1705 siege, the Catalan soldiers fought again in defence of Gibraltar, especially in an area then called "Catalan Guard" or "Catalan Post" in Wolf's Leap (Johann Argathelu map at first third of the eighteenth century, Gabriel Bodenehr map 1720, Johann Bowles brothers map 1727, etc.).

In 1709, Catalan Josep Valls, a Gibraltar resident, collaborating with Catalan traders Salvador Feliu de la Penya, Joan Verivol, Josep Grasses, and Josep Boigues, created a commercial company called "Companyia Nova de Gibraltar" (New Company of Gibraltar), in order to replace the monopoly of Cádiz in ocean trade, that would endure until 1723. Another theory suggests that the latter could simply be an English mispronunciation of Caleta.

History
Historically, Catalan Bay had been populated by Genoese fishermen who were part of a much larger settlement pattern along the eastern coast of The Rock during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. In the eighteenth century Genoese was so widely spoken in Gibraltar that government notices were also published in this language (alongside English and Spanish). Genoese was spoken in La Caleta well into the nineteenth century, dying out in the early decades of the twentieth. There has been some discussion about the possibility that the British may have mixed up Catalans with Genoese but, according to some opinions, it is by no means clear why they would suffer such a confusion, especially since there is other evidence which demonstrates that the British were perfectly aware that the residents of La Caleta were Genoese: the orders for the siege of 1727 refer to this bay as the Genoese Cove and the eighteenth- and nineteenth-century censuses record large numbers of people born in Genoa, not in Catalonia. However, the seventeenth-century French map "Plan de Catalan Bay ou la Caleta" (now in the Bibliothèque Nationale de France), which showed houses and lists of the inhabitants living in Catalan Bay before the village was completely built, shows various Catalan surnames among its inhabitants (Borràs, Canovas, Estella, Fabre, Fava, Palmé, Sans, Serra, Vila) even though they were not a majority compared to Genoese surnames (only a 12%). Therefore, there is documentary evidence that among the first inhabitants of Catalan Bay there were Catalans, despite the fact that they were few in number compared to the Genoese. Also, there is considerable evidence that during the seventeenth century Catalan fishermen travelled to the south of Spain every summer in order to fish for Boquerones or anchovie, which were quite plentiful in this part of the world. Their main base was at the mouth of the river Palmones, which is more or less opposite Gibraltar. It was an ideal place to beach their boats and salt their catch in readiness for taking back home at the end of the season. Among the Catalans who participated in the conquest of 1704 there were some fishermen.

During the nineteenth century only fishermen were permitted to live in Catalan Bay. They were required to have a fishing permit granted to them by the Governor and only a limited number of permits were issued. The families who live in the village today are mainly descendants of these Genoese fishermen, and are colloquially known as caleteños.

Present
The beach at Catalan Bay, is the second biggest sandy beach in Gibraltar. It is very popular with both Gibraltarians and tourists, and can often become overcrowded during the summer months.

One of the few hazards that can call for red flags to be flown is to warn bathers of jellyfish. Occasionally jellyfish such as the Mauve Stinger can arrive in significant numbers. Catalan Bay is home to the Caleta Palace Hotel, a number of restaurants (specialising in fresh seafood) and the Catholic Church of Our Lady of Sorrows. The statue of Our Lady of Sorrows is carried in procession to the beach each September when the Bishop of Gibraltar blesses the sea in what has become the village's main religious festival.

To the north lies Eastern Beach, Gibraltar's largest and most popular sandy beach. Beyond Catalan Bay to the south is the nearby beach of Sandy Bay, where from 2002 the coast road ended due to the closure of Dudley Ward Tunnel for safety reasons, only reopening in late 2010.

title: Catalan Bay