text:
Talk:Islam in Kazakhstan

The breakdown of population of Kazakhstan into two large groups, Muslims and Russian Orthodox is based purely on nationalities (Kazakh=Muslim and Russian=Orthodox), not actual beliefs. It has the same validity as the statement that 99% of Swedes are Christians because they are whites (the real number, as far I remember, is less than 5%). This is just nonsense.

I believe that the recent surge of ranks among religious people in Kazakhstan is solely a result of 70 years of Soviet deprivation of spiritual needs. In reality, at best 10% of Kazakh are really Muslims and 10% of Russians are Orthodox. The remaining are deists who believe in some higher power, say Kudai for Kazakhs, claim to be of certain religion yet never been to mosque/church, read Quran/Bible, and follow the covenants. In fact, many do not even know the very basics of their religion.

The only time when people actually "become religious" is during funeral ceremonies, that's it. Once it's over people go back to normal.

--Ibr 13:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC): The article needs to provide some evidence on "there is strong public pressure to increase the role that faith plays in society", I personally haven't seen any.

 * You can't claim what somebody else's religion is. Just because somebody doesn't seem to go to church/mosque often doesn't mean they don't consider themselves to be a Christian or Muslim. And if a survey/census says only 5% of the population goes to church you can't conclude 5% are Christians. BTW I'm wondering why the % of Muslims increased 10% from 1994 to 2007, maybe that's just a different estimate? Hypertall (talk) 00:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Islam in Kazakhstan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130612063733/http://www.stat.kz/news/Pages/n2_12_11_10.aspx to http://www.stat.kz/news/Pages/n2_12_11_10.aspx
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071020120928/http://www.inform.kz/showarticle.php?lang=eng&id=154837 to http://www.inform.kz/showarticle.php?lang=eng&id=154837

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 08:57, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Islam in Kazakhstan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080622235443/http://www.usembassy.kz/documents/irf-2006.html to http://www.usembassy.kz/documents/irf-2006.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 07:53, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:32, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Almaty 13.jpg (discussion)
 * Астана, Мечеть Хазрет Султан - panoramio.jpg (discussion)

Accusative Tone Against Minority Sect
Hello editors. I felt that this page had some accusative tone towards the Ahmadiyya minority in 2 locations. I've seen such language being discouraged in other articles, including the main article of the Ahmadiyya religious sect on Wikipedia, so I wanted the editors of a higher understanding of Wikipedia's standards - especially the Neutral point of view standard.

The locations are:
 * reference made directly to "Ahmadiyya" wikipedia article as singular, described as plural, using point of view that people of linked article are "non-muslim" in the third sentence of the first paragraph, cited with the 4th source - There are also small number of Shia and few non Muslims.
 * non-neutral point-of-view comment added to 4th citation reference text linked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Kazakhstan#cite_note-4

If we could get this reviewed, that would be appreciated. Cheers. Jmeel14 (talk) 07:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Islam in Kazakhstan


text:
Amedeo Obici

Amedeo Obici (July 15, 1877 – May 22, 1947) was an Italian-born America n businessman and philanthropist who founded Planters.

Early life
Obici was born in Oderzo in the Veneto region of Italy to Pietro Ludovico Obici and Luigia Carolina Sartori. His father died when Amedeo was seven years old, leaving behind his widow, young Amedeo, another son, Frank, and two daughters.

In 1889, his mother's brother, Vittorio Sartori, invited him to come to the United States. The uncle, his wife and two children had earlier emigrated and lived in Scranton, Pennsylvania.

Amedeo was unable to speak English at the time. When he sailed across the Atlantic Ocean from Le Havre, France in March 1889, his destination was written on a label tied through a buttonhole on his coat. Upon arrival in Brooklyn, New York, he rode a train to Scranton. En route, however, he was misdirected, and got off in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. The people in the train station took him to a fruit store owned by Enrico Musante and Enrico's daughter, Louise (whom he would later marry in 1916), as they too were Italian and could translate and assist.

While the Musantes worked to contact Amedeo's uncle in Scranton, Amedeo stayed with the Musantes in Wilkes-Barre. After staying with his uncle for a short time, he later returned to Wilkes-Barre, where he attended classes in the evening to learn English, and worked in the Musante fruit store.

Roasted peanuts as a snack food
When Amedeo returned to Wilkes-Barre and worked at the Musante fruit store, they had a peanut roaster and a fan that blew the fragrance of the roasting peanuts out to the street to lure customers to buy fruit and peanuts, which inspired him to get his own peanut cart. Because roaster ovens were expensive, Amadeo made a rudimentary roaster from parts obtained at a local scrapyard.

To promote his peanut sales, Amedeo devised a promotion. He put one letter of his last name in each bag of peanuts, O, B, I, or C. He inserted only one letter "O" for every fifty bags, and the customers who got the bags with the letter "O" won a gold watch. The watch was an Ingersoll gold-colored watch, which he purchased for a dollar.

Amedeo saved his money, and in 1895, brought the rest of his family from Italy to the United States. With the remaining savings, he also was able to open his own fruit stand and get a proper peanut roaster.

Joining forces with Mario Peruzzi
Obici operated an eating establishment that served oyster stew and roasted peanuts in a building in downtown Wilkes-Barre. There, in 1897, he teamed up with Mario Peruzzi, another Italian-American immigrant who was working for a wholesale grocer. Some time after Peruzzi's first wife died in 1910 (leaving two children), he married Obici's sister, "Lizzie".

Planters Peanuts
Obici and Peruzzi founded Planters Peanut Company (unincorporated) in 1906 and incorporated it as Planters Nut and Chocolate Company in 1908. Planters owned four factories by 1930. Obici invented a new method of skinning and blanching peanuts so the roasted goobers came out clean.

In 1913, they built a new processing plant in the heart of peanut farming territory in Suffolk, Virginia. Part of Obici's success was in marketing and finding new products to add to Planters' stock.

Bay Point Farm, Obici Hospital
In 1924, Amedeo and Louise Obici moved to Virginia from Scranton and purchased the 253 acre (1 km2) Bay Point Farm located on a bluff overlooking the Nansemond River.

Louise and Amedeo Obici were unable to have children of their own, but they frequently held events for children of the community at their Bay Point Farm. Louise's niece, also Louise Musante, lived with the Obicis from 1927 to 1930. Dairy farming was an avocation for Amedeo. He had a prized herd of Guernsey cows, and distributed Bay Point Dairy Farm milk in Suffolk.

Louise Obici died in 1938. Amedeo wanted to create a lasting memorial for her and by 1941 had settled on a hospital. In 1942, he formed a corporation, which was funded by a large endowment presented after his death. Amedeo continued to live at Bay Point Farm until his death at age 69.

Although area has been reduced through sale, Bay Point Farm still includes the Obicis' home overlooking the Nansemond River and some of the outbuildings, and currently belongs to the City of Suffolk. The area is now known as Sleepy Hole Golf Course, and the Obici house has recently been renovated. Bay Point Farm is listed on the Virginia Landmarks Register and on the National Register of Historic Places.

Death
Obici died in Suffolk at the Bay Point Farm in 1947. The generosity of Louise and Amedeo Obici to their adopted community and his workers left a strong imprint in Suffolk and the surrounding community.

Legacy
Among Amedeo Obici's legacy in the Suffolk and surrounding community was the original Louise Obici Memorial Hospital on Main Street U.S. Route 460. The hospital was established by his brother-in-law Mario Peruzzi after Obici's death, using the funds Obici had left him for that purpose. The community landmark, dedicated to Amedeo's wife Louise, opened in 1951. Through his estate, Obici also planned and paid for another hospital in his original hometown of Oderzo in Italy. In 2002, a newer facility replaced the 1951-era Louise Obici Memorial Hospital at a larger site on Godwin Boulevard State Route 10. Obici Hospital is now affiliated with Sentara Healthcare which operates many health care facilities in southeastern Virginia. Another hospital was opened in southern Virginia with the Obici name in 2011. The old hospital site has been redeveloped and turned into a mixed use development with condominiums and retail shops, with the street and property still bearing Louise's name.

Although Planters and the peanut industry are not the major defining activity of Suffolk as they once were, the Mr. Peanut character has become quite famous. A statue of the mascot is prominently displayed in downtown Suffolk. Another was a gift to Suffolk's sister city, Oderzo.

The Planters Nut and Chocolate Company, now known simply as Planters, is owned by Hormel since June 2021. It is the Suffolk area's 11th largest employer.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Amedeo Obici


text:
Talk:Temple (Latter Day Saints)

New WikiProject proposed
I have proposed a new WikiProject which would aim to maintain and improve all of the temple articles listed here. If you have any interest, you can leave comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement. --Lethargy 02:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the initiative - I have some suggestions at WP:LDS -Visorstuff 16:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

External link spam
It is not necessary, in my opinion, to have the exact same links in every article about temples. Almost all of them currently contain at least some of these links:

 * The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Official Site
 * The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Visitors Site
 * Mormon Temple Ordinances
 * Mormon Temples and Secrecy
 * Mormon Temple Worship - BBC Religion & Ethics
 * Mormon Temples
 * History of Mormon Temples
 * Mormon Temples and Masonry
 * Resources for the History and Symbolism of Mormon Temples

I am completely fine with having links about the specific temple mentioned in the article, but when general temple information is added to every page, all we are doing is spamming. Some of these links would probably be acceptable in the main temple article (this one), but not every one.

Is anyone opposed to removing general links from these articles? --Lethargy 21:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I created a template for each temple page which hopefully covers some of these issues. I was thinking about putting these common links into their own template so they can be changed at a global level.  Bytebear 06:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Although that would certainly make them easier to maintain, it would still put links to general sites about temples in each article, rather than links about that specific temple. Wikipedia has a guideline somewhere stating that internal links are preferred over external links; most temple articles already have a See also section which links to this article, where they can find more information and external links about temples in general. --Lethargy 20:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I was thinking about it, and I do think that the external links section should be specific to the temple article. Ideally it should be a reference to the content of the article.  But each temple article should have in the "See Also" section a link to this artcile, and probably to the LDS main arcticle and to list of temples.  So there would still be a set of general links for each temple article. Bytebear 21:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Bad Citations/ possible spam
I'm new to wikipedia, and know that anything mormon is a touchy subject, so am not going to take action myself, but just point out what I assume are problems/irregularites in the "citations" of the "Controversies" "Exclusive Temple Weddings" section of the article.

Citation 2 (the first of the paragraph) takes you to an anti-mormon propoganda site with a clearly biased POV, and many speculative, skewed, and some downright false statements about the temple and the church. I don't see how this link qualifies the statement "When a couple chooses to marry in the temple where a parent does not possess a temple recommend, the parent(s) may feel resentment and pain". Does that statement need a link? If so it would seem that a newspaper or other article that quotes parents discussing said feelings would do well, whereas just a webpage (a propaganda one at that) arbitrarily stating that it is so ( from the page: "LDS temple rules forbid non-LDS parents from seeing their own children’s temple wedding. This leaves many parents literally standing outside the temple, devastated at being denied this moment in their child’s life. Matters are made worse by the fact that the temple wedding ceremony is so secret that it must not be discussed even with the parents afterward.") doesn't seem like a ligitimate or useful source. I suspect it may have added to draw people to the site.

Citation 3 supposedly qualifies the statement: "For those couples who prefer a non-temple marriage first, the couple is required to wait at least one year to be sealed." The citation takes you to another anti-mormon site that discusses in depth the changes to the temple ceremony and does hit upon the topic, but is not an authoritative source by any means, once again a biased webpage, arbitrarily stating that something is so. Of course, it is so, but it just doesn't seem like the right citation. Seems footnote 3 would be the correct citation here as it cites official church policy on the topic, verifying the statement, so I do not see the need for the link.

Citation 4 takes us to the same source as citation 2. It is meant to qualify the statement "Critics claim that this is simply an intrusive and divisive way used to persuade members to donate more, while at the same time, putting pressure on non-Mormons to convert". OK, so we are citing the fact that critics claim something... this one is a little different. The author of the webpage, although making all sorts of arbitrary claims of fact without citation, obviously qualifies as a critic. However, although he says many things about temple marraiges (some skewed or taken out of context, some false), he does not say anything about it meant to put pressure on non-Mormons to convert. And the "this" in "critics claim that this" would seem to be a pronoun referring to the church's specification, per the previous sentence.

I am not experienced in wikidom; I just wanted to bring these things up as I am probably one of the few people interested in the criticisms to click on the links and once i did it became obvious that they were bogus citations meant to lead readers to propaganda.

All in all, this paragraph seems to be pretty rough, and could use some organization and cleanup. While the controversies regarding temple marriage definitely exist and should be noted, it could sure be cleaned up, stated more concisely and professionaly, and it seems some legitimite sources should be used. (or none at all would be better than the spam that is currently there.)

Thanks --KÆN 04:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Legality issues
Some time ago, there was a discussion on this page (at its former location) concerning the legality and appropriateness of this article containing specific information on temple ceremonies. After reading through it, I'm not sure if any conclusion was reached. While it's not an issue at the present time, I think it's inevitable that in the future, specific ceremony details will be added. There's also the related question of whether to accept images of things held sacred by CoJCoLDS members: garmets, temple clothing, and depictions of temple ceremonies (whether real or re-enacted). When the issue presents itself, it'd be good to have the question settled — it may prevent a massive edit war, or at least help cool it down some.

For those unfamiliar with why this question is important, a brief explanation is in order. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hold the specific details of ceremonies held in temples sacred and secretive. According to official Church policy (link forthcoming), it is not permissible for members to discuss details of ceremonies outside of the temple (i.e. specific wording used in ceremonies). Combine the controversy that exists about LDS Church practices with the curiosity of the general public and the free speech allowed by the internet and Wikipedia, and we've got a recipe for conflict.

As I see it, there are two questions at hand here: 1. Is it legal to display information, whether written or through multimedia, about temple ceremonies on Wikipedia which is not disclosed in LDS Church materials? 2. Is it moral to display such information? Or, perhaps a better way to state the question, Even if it is legal to display such information, should Wikipedia do so?

As I've mentioned before, I think it's important to resolve this issue before it comes to a head. There's a number of policies which could apply here, which I'll start to add in in the near future. For now, I'll create a subsection for each question, although I understand if there's some crossover. I also realize that the questions may need to be revised.  Tijuana Brass  00:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Another issue you neglect to mention is this: Is this the appropriate article to have such details? This article covers temple of all groups within the Latter Day Saint movement, including the Community of Christ, which does not do endowment ceremonies in their temples.  There is an article (Endowment (Latter Day Saints) that covers such details, and this discussion should probably be moved to that article, and any information about the ordinance itself should be discussed there, and not in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bytebear (talk • contribs) 02:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

Is it legally permissible to display material (be it written, photographic, video, or audio) concerning temple ceremonies that the LDS Church would not want released to the general public?

 * Comment - Please refrain from comments that divert from the legal question unnecessarily, such as lengthy theological statements. Statements should be based upon policy and verifiable sources, not personal opinions. As for me, I'm withholding judgment for the time being. However, the precedent set by the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy seems to indicate that at least some material would be allowed.  Tijuana Brass  00:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * It's perfectly legal to discuss the temple ceremony and include pictures of sacred things. Endowed members have made oaths not to reveal the names, tokens, signs, and (pre-1990) penalties, but that's a purely religious matter. When the Endowment was first created, securing a copyright required publication, which obviously never happened, and in any case the copyright would have expired. Moreover, the church's changes over the years since the early 20th century and onward could theoretically be copyrighted as derivative works, but any commentary in an article such as this one would be protected under fair use.  CO GD EN  04:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

 * The Church of Scientology sues just about everyone who says anything negative about scientology and yet we have the information about Xenu and lots more on the page. Calibas 04:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

If it it permissible, should Wikipedia do so?

 * Comment - I personally am also withholding a decision on this issue. However, I see little precedent to disallow the display of legal, relevant content on Wikipedia. There have been some occasions where material has been censored — usually involving direct office action, from my understanding — but generally, the possibility of material offending others has not been accepted as a reason for removal. With that said, if such content does find its way online, courtesy demands that some sort of warning or notice be set up advising readers, not unlike the tag.  Tijuana Brass  00:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * As to whether such information can be kept from coming out on Wikipedia, it's not likely, and it's already Wikipedia policy not to prevent the inclusion of truthful and accurate subject matter. That said, the Endowment article does not specifically discuss the names, tokens, signs, and penalties, and nobody thus far has complained. If someone insists, I don't think there's anything we can do, although you can bet there will be an onslaught of LDS vandalism, which will require the page to be protected. Not a good result.  CO GD EN  04:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There is plenty of titilating, if not detailed information from published and available LDS works, including The Holy Temply by Boyd K. Packer, The House of the Lord: A Study of Holy Sanctuaries, Ancient and Modern by James E. Talmage.  Both of these books can be bought on Amazon.com and any Mormon or non-Mormon can read them.  I would say, any details should be referenced by these and similar works.  This will appease Mormons who will cry foul at any anti-Mormon reference (which nearly all non-Mormon descriptions will come from) and it will have enough details and descriptions to cover the topic thoroughly enough to appease those who feel that the Mormons are trying to hide or censor something.  The specifics of the "signs and tokens" are not as relevant as to what the LDS consider important about those things, and LDS publications covers those details.  Bytebear 08:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I recommend moving it to a separate page and putting some sort of warning on the link. While I certainly don't believe in censorship I think Wikipedians should respect religions and accommodate them when possible. Calibas 04:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Graphic?
There used to be a graphic file showing the relative sizes of the temples. Why was it removed; it was very helpful? 66.191.19.217 22:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You can find it in the Temple architecture (LDS Church) Bytebear (talk) 02:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. The graphic I referenced included the CoC (RLDS), FLDS and AUB temples as well.  66.191.19.73 (talk) 16:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That image is in the article. Bytebear (talk) 16:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. When I posted back in 10/07 it was gone.  Good addition, BTW.  68.113.47.85 (talk) 19:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Possible violation of sanctity/copyright of ordinances, potential for lawsuit if Church ever found out.
I posted a comment on the talk page of the Washing and anointing Wiki page. My viewpoint is explained in full there. Here I will only say that unless it can be shown that the Church endorses the inclusion of such information on a public-domain website, there's a possibility that this inclusion constitutes a violation of the sanctity and sacredness of the ordinances. Such a blatant breech of the Church's policy of keeping these things sacred could mean that if the Church ever found out about this page, there might be a lawsuit, as the Church is becoming more and more concerned with the sanctity of the temple. There have even been reports of disaffected members of the Church trying to publicize these ordinances in the hopes of discrediting the Church. I know that the First Presidency has in the past discouraged ANY discussion of temple ordinances outside the temple as violations of the sanctity of the ordinances, and the Church takes a very dim view of anyone doing so without permission. There has to be a way to include this information without violating the sanctity of the temple or what is done therein. Otherwise, I concur with the First Presidency that such material shouldn't be included in the public domain. However, if someone can direct me to ONE source by an apostle/prophet of the Church stating that inclusion of this information in the public domain is permissible, I will be silent. Of course, I doubt very much anyone will be able to find such a source. In everything I've read, the Church has ALWAYS maintained that what happens in the temple should stay in the temple, and so unless a source proves otherwise, I would be strongly in favor of toning these pages down quite a bit to comply with the Church's wishes. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 04:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

 * "I would be strongly in favor of toning these pages down quite a bit to comply with the Church's wishes". Is the above section meant to be a joke and / or parody? The mormon church can censor any and all of the publications they own, but they do not have that luxury here at Wikipedia. Duke53  | Talk 05:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * p.s. It would be fun to watch a lawsuit of that nature filed. Duke53  | Talk 05:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Jgstokes, I have heard of the Church suing over violations of copyright, but not of violations of sanctity (which would never hold up in court). If there are copyright violations on Wikipedia (and I'm not saying there are in this case; haven't looked) then there by WP policy they must be removed. If they are not copyvios or other policy violations, then there's little that you can do about what Wikipedia publishes. alanyst /talk/ 06:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have heard others make the claim of copyright infringement, but this area is completely out of my area of expertise. However, those who threaten lawsuits may be banned from Wikipedia; I would urge caution when making any statements in this regard unless you know for a fact your comments are on solid legal grounds. Another piece of advice is to never threaten; only act!
 * What is required on Wikipedia is to follow policies regarding references. If a references is reputable, one can say almost anything on Wikipedia. Also, Wikipedia does not recognize the concept of "sacred", i.e. there is no respect for such a concept. Instead this area is explored, information provided, etc. This is particularly true for smaller groups, minorities, etc. Policies are generally observed everywhere, but application can be spotty. This is not one of those areas and never will be. If you have a problem with any of the references provided, then you can explain your case here. Otherwise, there is nothing that you can do. --Storm Rider (talk) 06:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "If a references is reputable [sic], one can say almost anything on Wikipedia". That's the beauty of it all, since it cuts both ways. Duke53  | Talk 06:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I wasn't making myself quite clear. I myself was not intending to "threaten lawsuits". After all, I am not a General Church leader, and to say that I had the power to threaten a lawsuit on behalf of the Church would be a gross misrepresentation. If I understand things correctly, the Church has copyrighted the wording/material used in temple ceremonies, and to publish them on an online encyclopedia constitutes a violation of copyright. While my main issue was with the sanctity being violated, I now acknowledge that there is the potential for a copyright violation. I also know for a fact that these wordings/material are copyrighted. I work in one of the temples, and on all material I've seen, a notice indicates that the wording/material is copyrighted and is not to be produced in whole or in part in any form, written or electronic, outside of the temple. I've heard of cases where such attempts to reproduce were made and the Church came down on the perpetrators because of copyright issues. This I know of my own personal knowledge because I've been present when these issues have been discussed. I am not permitted to say any more than that because doing so would constitute a violation of copyright on my part. So, with that added information, I can't say whether I have "firm legal ground" to mention the possibility of a lawsuit. Only those who have responded to my original request can be the judge of that, but the facts are before them now. I assure my esteemed fellow editors that I never intended to make it sound as if I was "threatening a lawsuit on behalf of the Church" and I certainly wouldn't want to be suspended based on the assumption that I did. The moral issues came to mind before the legal issues, but since WP will not consider moral issues, I urge all concerned to think of the legal ramifications and copyright issues. I'll leave it at that. I hope my additional information and clarification is not interpreted as a threat. That is in no way my intention. While I myself don't want to get in trouble because of WP policy, I'd hate for WP to get in trouble because of the legal issues. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 01:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess that I would have to personally see this supposedly copyrighted material (with the copyright tag) before I would assume that it is indeed copyrighted. Are we supposed to take the word of an anonymous person declaring that he has seen it and that somehow makes it a valid claim? Sorry, but that just doesn't make it, in the real world or here at WP ... <U>verify</U>, <I>verify</I>, <B>verify</b>. Duke53  | Talk 03:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, US copyright law grants automatic copyright to the author of any copyrightable work upon its creation. If I wrote an original five paragraph essay on the merits of the gold standard, for example, I would have an automatic copyright on that essay, even without a printed notice or official registration of the copyright.  (This is why you can license your contributions to Wikipedia under the GFDL; if you didn't own copyright to your contributions you would have nothing to license.)  So there's no need to ask for proof that the church owns copyright on the text of its ordinances.  However, US copyright law also has a fair use exemption that permits certain uses of copyrighted works even without permission of the owner.  The rules of fair use can be complex, but the idea is to allow limited excerpting and quoting for purposes of research, review, and criticism.  Quoting a work in its entirety, or copying for commercial purposes, are typically out of bounds.  Limited paraphrasing or quotation from such texts as the church's ordinances by Wikipedia articles probably falls under the fair use privilege.  But I am not trained in legal matters, so do not rely on my word alone. alanyst /talk/ 04:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I am not talking about a printed notice or official registration ... where do we see a copy of the text? Are you saying that I can claim to have the copyright to something that I keep hidden from the general public, but show to a select group of people who declare that they saw what I claim to have? I would love to see a suit brought on the basis of that argument, and would really love to see the attorney who would have to defend that argument. If a document isn't released then it would be fairly difficult to prove that you have a copyright on it. Duke53  | Talk 04:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A copyvio claim could certainly be initiated without the owner having to publish the work they claim is being pirated. Proving the violation in court would of course have to involve disclosure of the work, to show sufficient similarity to back up the claim.  But that can be done under seal.  If we're talking about copyright concerns expressed on Wikipedia and not claims made in the courts, then it's an easier question.  Either the material quoted is authentic, in which case we have to make sure we're within the boundaries of fair use, or else it's not authentic, and the representation of the text as actual LDS temple ceremonies is deceptive, and at least for Wikipedia is inappropriate for use.  Assuming good faith of those who contributed the text, they believe the material to be authentic, and so they should assume that they're dealing with copyrighted material and act accordingly to avoid infringement. alanyst /talk/ 05:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Let me ask you one thing, Duke 53. If I told you that I had seen something that was copyrighted, accompanied by a notice saying that the material could not be reproduced in whole or in part WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT OWNER, how in the world could I show you that notice if the very essence of it forbids me from doing so? I've heard a lot of talk about "fair use" in connection with this issue, but have yet to be shown or believe that WP's use of this material falls under said "fair use" law. And while we're talking about reputable sources, how do you know that whoever included this information in the first place got it from a reputable source? Church members are under solemn and sacred covenant not to violate ordinance sanctity and copyright by NEVER discussing wording/procedure outside of the temple, period. Any Church member who does so and is caught reproducing said copyrighted material in whole or in part is disciplined/disfellowshipped/excommunicated. That is, always has been, and always will be Church policy on this issue. Since when is someone disaffected from the Church a "reputable source" for what goes on in the Church? For all we know, bitterness against the Church could have distorted their "reputable report" of the material. And any Church member in good standing would NEVER give information out about the temple, except in general terms as permitted by the Church, and the wording would NEVER be released to the public domain. But I'm rambling far too much. The proof is in sources. Because of the policy I outlined according to my understanding of such, I can give no evidence that what I say is true. The only course, irregular though it may be, is for someone on the other side of this issue to find a source stating that the inclusion of this material as it stands in the public domain is permissible. Unless I see a verifiable, Church-endorsed source stating without equivocation that such material is permissible for inclusion, then I have to go with what I know and understand, even if I can't prove it because of the restrictions mentioned. So, show me one source saying this material is permissible to include in the public domain, and that will be the end of my viewpoint. Otherwise, I can't let this rest and will continue to state the Church's position based on my understanding of it until I see proof that I am in error. The ball is in your court. Inform me of your next play. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 00:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To additionally emphasize what I've been saying all along, I found a quote from President Packer about the sanctity of temples. I've edited the relevant portions to place the emphasis on the views that support my position. This comes from "The Holy Temple," an article featured in the February 1995 issue of the Ensign, pg. 32. "A careful reading of the scriptures reveals that the Lord did not tell all things to all people. There were some qualifications set that were prerequisite to receiving sacred information. Temple ceremonies fall within this category. We do not discuss the temple ordinances outside the temples. It was never intended that knowledge of these temple ceremonies would be limited to a select few who would be obliged to ensure that others never learn of them. It is quite the opposite, in fact. With great effort we urge every soul to qualify and prepare for the temple experience. Those who have been to the temple have been taught an ideal: Someday every living soul and every soul who has ever lived shall have the opportunity to hear the gospel and to accept or reject what the temple offers. If this opportunity is rejected, the rejection must be on the part of the individual himself. The ordinances and ceremonies of the temple are simple. They are beautiful. They are sacred. They are kept confidential lest they be given to those who are unprepared. Curiosity is not a preparation. Deep interest itself is not a preparation. Preparation for the ordinances includes preliminary steps: faith, repentance, baptism, confirmation, worthiness, a maturity and dignity worthy of one who comes invited as a guest into the house of the Lord. All who are worthy and qualify in every way may enter the temple, there to be introduced to the sacred rites and ordinances." (emphasis added) Since this comes from a Church-endorsed source, unless something the Church has said more recently proves the contrary, then I have to go with what this verifiable source says. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 01:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I think where you are making your mistake is that you feel that <B><I>everyone</I></B> is bound by the mormon church's 'ordinances' and / or 'covenants' ... their edicts count for nil in courts of law and also here at Wikipedia. You may feel that <I>you</I> have to follow these commands, but you are a member of a tiny minority; the rest of us needn't follow them in the slightest. Duke53  | Talk 03:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I don't feel I'm making a mistake in the slightest. In the source cited, Packer states in essence that what happens in the temple stays in the temple. Simply put, what goes on in the temple should not be discussed outside the temple, period. It's not an "edict," it's a well understood policy except by those who choose to fight it as you do. You are getting so tied up by trying to present a counterexample to what is contained in my source that you are overlooking the obvious remedy. Find me ONE verifiable, attributable statement from someone authorized to speak for and in behalf of the Church that states explicitly that the text/description of the ordinances CAN be in the public domain, and you'll hear no more from me about this issue. Until that time, I intend to stick to my viewpoint, and I would greatly appreciate your allowing me to do so. After all, while I may be in the minority here, that doesn't give either you or Wikipedia the right to tell me that I'm not entitled to express and defend a stated opinion simply because I am in the minority. I do not assume the right to speak for Wikipedia on this issue, and I don't see how you can justify your statement that "the rest of us" don't feel the same way I do. Perhaps other editors are waiting for the same verifiable source I am before they comment one way or the other. Either way, while you and I have a right to our opinions, neither you or I can or should assume that we are authorized to speak for "the rest of us." In the meantime, I'll stick to what I said, and neither you nor anyone else will be able to change my mind on this issue until I see the requested source. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 04:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I don't care if you ever change your mind, but if you try to change articles to conform to the mormon church's 'ordinances', 'convenants' or policies then there may be a problem. If you are going to be part of Wikipedia then you must follow <I>their</I> rules, not rules imposed by any outside faction. Duke53  | Talk  —Preceding comment was added at 04:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

 * (edit conflict) Jgstokes, I think the point is that the Church can only constrain publication of the materials if such publication violates copyright law. The Church's blanket prohibition on reproduction  of the work in whole or in part cannot supersede the fair use clause of US copyright law, so publication in part is allowed when it's compatible with the rules of fair use.  The main factors in fair use are copying of sufficiently limited portions of the work, and copying for the purposes of education, research, review, and criticism.  If Wikipedia is quoting limited excerpts for the purposes of education, it would seem to me that such use would be allowed under the fair use doctrine, no matter whether the Church gives permission or not.  I do not think an argument can be made to exclude limited quotations for fear of infringing copyright since Wikipedia seems to be protected by a fair use defense.  If you do not think fair use applies, please study the fair use article and then explain why. alanyst /talk/ 04:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you all for your patience with me. In spite of what I know about what the Church has said pertaining to this issue of keeping what happens in the temple in the temple only, the last couple of days in which I have not responded has given me time to think and research. I haven't yet studied thoroughly the fair use pages pertaining to US law and WP law. However, I have sat back and let others comment, and the comments have been useful. I state again that I know I do not decide WP policy. However, just because I seem to be in the minority on this one doesn't make my viewpoint any less valid. I intend to give very serious consideration to the sources I've been directed to. In the meantime, I encourage all on both sides of this discussion to do the same. Also, see the comment made by Linus Hawk on the washing and anointing page. I concur fully with him. Beyond my concerns about sanctity and copyright, I am seeing a lot of material that is unsourced in these articles. Additionally, those that are sourced appear to be sources set up without consent of the Church and not endorsed by the Church, and unless information is obtained from a credible verifiable source, then the same WP policy that forbids me from establishing my viewpoint as the rule in this case also prohibits the inclusion of material that is not sourced and not verifiable. So, for those on the other end of this discussion, I encourage you to consider that as I consider national and WP policy as pertaining to fair use. I can tell you this much as of now, though: Just glancing through both pages, I found enough evidence to substantiate my viewpoint in no uncertain terms. I'll talk more about that when I've studied more on it. Until that time, this comment is left for all to consider, no matter what viewpoint you take on the issue under discussion. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 05:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion, if nothing else, but I do find it a little bit on the bizarre side; that is, I find it strange that religious arguments and appeals to sanctity are being made when we're dealing with an (secular, I assume) encyclopedia. I'm not at all convinced that copyright is even an issue in this case, but if we assume for a moment that it is, there is one issue that I think would be important: There are other points I have, but really, I don't know if they are worth making here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If the temple ordinances are copyrighted, who was the author? Joseph Smith, Jr. In the United States, I believe copyright at most lasts the length of the author's life +100 years. Smith died in 1844. Thus, the copyright on the temple ordinances would have lasted until 1944 at the latest.

 * I do not think that copyright law has any basis here (even though it has been stated the ordinances have been changed as recently as the last ten years, I assume if copyright is applicable, the term is renewed irrespective of the death of Smith); however, as has been stated before a reputable reference may be at issue. Given that there is little said by the LDS church about their temple ceremonies, who is then deemed a reputable reference and how is that verified? Who is the recognized expert of such things and how is that determined? Though this has been asked on several occasions, I don't recall any definitive answers. There are a number of websites that are recognized as anti-Mormon in nature that purport to "reveal" Mormon temple ceremonies, but how are they judged accurate or correct? Are any of these sources peer reviewed and determined accurate?
 * It is meaningless that the LDS church desires to have their temple ceremonies kept sacred or private; this position has no bearing on Wikipedia. This is a public encyclopedia that pursues the dissemination of verifiable facts in a neutral manner. It is not a repository or collection of sensational, titillating stories for those in search of a life or those with an ax to grind or soapbox upon which to pontificate their chosen "truth" (as a purist, I detest those vapid sections about "in modern media" that has become so common (modern media does not have facts, but trivia), but I digress). Truth does not even have a basis on Wikipedia; we are not an arbitrator of such. --Storm Rider (talk) 09:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I took another look at the sources listed for the copyrighted text in these articles. Whoever included these sources obviously didn't do the research. The man who wrote them up is an ex-member of the Church, and therefore the source is not verifiable anyways. On the site itself, I saw evidence (I can't remember exactly where) that the guy himself said that he had violated Church policy by recording the ordinances. He was proud of it! It's obvious that having become disaffected with the Church, he has maliciously attempted to violate Church policy about not revealing what happens in the temple. I looked at particular areas of the site and found that they were either incomplete or severely lacking in verifiability. I strongly encourage taking another look at this. Ex-members of the Church are far more dangerous to the Church than are people who are not members of the Church. What I'm trying to say is, you can't always get accurate information about a person or organization from someone who has split ways with him/her/it. It's like asking Joseph Smith's killers if he was really a prophet. In either case, they are going to give a biased answer based on their current position. I've tried to be open minded about all this. If there is grounds for fair use, I'll accept that. However, since the same WP policy that keeps getting thrown in my face over fair use also states that a source must be unbiased and accurate, and since the webmaster of the site in question clearly shows a bias, my understanding of WP policy is that information like that should not be included. I've failed in appealing to moral instincts and hoping my fellow WP editors have some. I haven't got through thoroughly studying the fair use issue yet. However, verifiability is as of just as much concern, if not more so, than the whole "fair use" issue thing either. And since this is the only source acclaiming the appropriateness of the included information, and since it is not reputable, I again urge reconsideration of this issue. A moral argument has failed, a copyright violation/fair use argument is under study, but one thing that I have to constantly be reminded of here on WP is that everything must be verified from a reputable source. An ex-Mormon mostly has a skewed view on things, and in the website cited, it is freely admitted that copyright laws and Church policy were broken to obtain this information, so given that, I would strongly encourage reconsidering the situation. Study the cited web page very carefully. You'll be as surprised as I was at this contemptible issue. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 23:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Since we're striving for neutrality, etc., why is it that a former Mormon is more of a biased source than a current Mormon? Both obviously come with preconceived beliefs, as does everyone in the world. Seems to me we should be looking to other factors, and not to the current or past religious affiliations of the authors. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Hello Jgstokes, I read your edit and would urge to consider how you present your argument on Wikipedia. The above is so full of hooks that many editors familiar with Wikipedia policy or even those not favorable Latter Day Saint movement are going to overlook your valid argument and be caught up in the fluff and weakness of your presentation. Only address policy and that which you think violates it and leave the rest out.
 * Wikipedia is not moral; it does not take a position about what is "true". We seek to report facts as presented by reputable sources or experts. That's it; there is nothing else to discuss. A regular member or an ex-member is not a reputable source. We don't care what a particular church feels or says about how others think about their church, their doctrine, etc. It is irrelevant. What is important is that an expert has stated something in a reputable source. Your only valid position is to determine the reputableness of the reference provided for the cite. There may be an argument in this one area because I don't think an ex member is in the position of being an expert; if so, how has that been determined and by whom? A self-published website is not a valid source and an anti-Mormon website may be suspect as an expert source; it depends on who is generating the comments and their recognized degree of expertise; i.e. do they have degrees in religion and have demonstrated an expertise by colleagues that have reviewed their work. --Storm Rider (talk) 00:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. I have a tendency to be verbose, especially on subjects I feel strongly about. So, I'll try to keep the "fluff" and "weakness" out of this post. Thanks for working with me on that point. This is not a valid source because the webmaster has no credentials establishing himself as an expert. No credentials=No verifiability, consequently the data cited from this source should be removed. How's that? --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 00:23, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that would be a much more productive and effective way to get people to understand your point. As regards fair use, I would reccomend following the current litigation regarding the Harry Potter Lexicon which appears to be turning out to be an excellent discussion of the limits of fair use.  Packetmonger (talk) 07:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Packetmonger (talk • contribs) 06:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

 * For controversial edits on Wikipedia we work by consensus. Taking unilateral action may often lead to edit wars with other editors who also feel strongly about issues on the other side. Though we do encourage editors to be WP:BOLD, this may be a situation where you seek the thoughts of editors both pro and con. Given the lengthy history of this issue, I suspect it will not be an easy fight. However, I agree that the current source is not reputable. What do others think? --Storm Rider (talk) 01:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Community of Christ's old name
According to this link the name used prior to Community of Christ was "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" - Capital "D" and no dash. Only when talking about the Salt Lake based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically, should the term "Latter-day Saints" be used. Bytebear (talk) 01:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree — the RLDS Church always used "Latter Day Saints", not "Latter-day Saints". Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Ring ceremony
Since when do LDS civil weddings not include a ring ceremony? From my experience, civil ceremonies although simple, are no different than any other wedding ceremony, including exchange of rings. The article implies a civil wedding is somehow more restrictive than any other wedding ceremony, which isn't the case. Bytebear (talk) 00:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Using rings in a wedding ceremony are fine and used all the time. The exchanging of rings do not have a place in temple sealing ordinances. They may be exchanged by the couple, but they are not part of the ordinance. Could the editor who keeps making the change please explain his basis for saying they are never a part of marriages of Latter-day Saints outside of a temple? --Storm Rider (talk) 09:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Perhaps the editor in question (whoever he may be) was referring to the fact that the "ring-exchange" is not an official part of a temple marriage. I know that, most often, rings ARE exchanged outside the temple and during civil marriages, but perhaps the wording (which I'd have to look over) was in this context referring to the lack of a "ring-exchange" as part of the official temple ceremony. If that's the case, then this edit seems to be correct. If not, then it needs to be revised. Clear as mud? --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 22:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Please read my original comment again. I am only speaking of an LDS civil wedding.  The article currently implies that ring ceremonies are somewhat taboo, which is incorrect.  They simply are not part of the temple ceremony.  The article should say that Civil weddings are similar to any other traditional wedding.  Bytebear (talk) 17:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

YouTube video
The video called "Between Heaven and Earth", which is being linked to from YouTube, is almost surely running afoul of copyright violation. The copyright for the video is owned by Bonneville Communications. There is nothing on the YouTube link that suggests that it has been placed there with permission or authorisation from the copyright owner. Thus, we should not be providing a link to the video. Please note that according to WP:COPYVIO, "[c]ontributors who repeatedly post copyrighted material despite appropriate warnings may be blocked from editing by any administrator to prevent further problems." Thanks. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

FLDS Section
The FLDS section needs to be updated as to the status. 66.191.19.217 (talk) 03:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

 * In what way? It's all well and good to say that it needs to be updated, but if you don't specifically tell us how, they we can't take care of it. Thanks in advance for the additional information. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 23:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Sorry, was in a hurry the other day. The article currently reads (my emphasis added):
 * "The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) made news in 2004 by embarking on the construction of a temple at their new settlement near Eldorado, Texas. The foundation of the FLDS temple roughly matches that of the original Nauvoo Temple. This is the second time any of the polygamous Mormon fundamentalists sects have attempted to build a temple of their own."

 * AFAIK, the temple in now complete and has been since 2006 - 2007 . The only thing I'd recommend is adding that part. 66.191.19.217 (talk) 03:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

 * The article you provided as a source was very informative. Thank you for the additional information, and for bringing this to our attention. However, you will note that the article itself states, "the first-ever temple of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints appears to be nearing completion, if it isn't finished already, say observers near Eldorado, Texas. The polygamous sect itself remains silent, as it has been since construction started. "They're not making a lot of comments on it," Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran said. "They said, 'Yeah, the structure's completed on the exterior,' but they didn't elaborate." (emphasis added by me.)

 * In short, what we have in this article is a hearsay-type claim based on nothing more than guess work. The article says the structure "appears" to be done. Since the FLDS people have not issued an official statement on whether the temple is indeed complete, or whether it is being used for anything, it's largely guesswork on the part of the Deseret Morning News writer who authored this article. What the FLDS people DID say is that it was completed as far as the exterior, but no further elaboration has been provided by that organization. Evidence that the temple IS completed is merely circumstantial, not conclusive, and seems to not meet WP's standards about adding verifiable material. It is my personal opinion that IF we had an official statement endorsed by FLDS leaders saying that the temple IS complete and IS being used, that THEN this would be an acceptable change. For now, it's all too theoretical and conjectural. And neither theory nor conjecture is permissible for inclusion on WP, UNLESS the theories/conjectures are those of a noted scholar or are backed up by actual fact. That's the way I see it. If I'm wrong, though, I'd like to be told about it. Are there any other comments? My gut feeling is not to include this material until it is confirmed by sources that offer neither conjecture or theory but fact. What do you think? --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 23:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

 * That all sounds fine to me and I agree we shouldn't say it is completed until there is something official. Perhaps adding a single sentence indicating that the exterior appears complete (with a reference) would be be sufficient.  Members of the sect have made a statement to that effect at least. As more develops, we can go from there.  Thanks.66.191.19.217 (talk) 22:59, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree. Feel free to add that if you like, and if the change is disputed, I will point out that it has been discussed here. Thanks for your great work. As a sidenote, you may wish to consider getting a proper user name. Then issues raised by you are less likely to be contested, your work will not be challenged as much, you will have greater credibility and believability, and your fellow editors will be able to address you by name, all of which are beneficial for WP purposes. Please contact me on my talk page with any questions you may have about what I have said here. Thanks again. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 02:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Cite tag
I'm not sure why requests for citation are being summarily deleted—twice in recent days for the following sentence: "Temple worship played a prominent role in the Bible's Old Testament, and in the Book of Mormon." While it's true the original request for a citation did not use the proper template to ask for it, that's not really a great reason to simply delete it. I replaced the request with the appropriate {cn} tag and it was removed again. I really don't understand why it would be removed—it's entirely appropriate to add a citation tag for a statement that claims temple worship played a "prominent role" in both the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. It's certainly not a statement that is self-evident and therefore not in need of an appropriate citation. On the substantive merits of the claim, I'm not aware of temple worship playing what I would call a "prominent" role in the Book of Mormon. It's certainly there, and it's mentioned a number of times, but I don't know if I personally would call it "prominent". That's why we need a source that would so describe it and why it's appropriate to ask for one. Otherwise it's just users' subjective opinions as to what constitutes or does not constitute "prominent role". Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I think being mentioned 20 times in pretty prominent. And it is something that goes without saying. I do agree that the statement could be considered original research, and we should look for a third party source. But, really, if the question is "Does the Book of Mormon promote temple worship?" the answer needs no citation. Bytebear (talk) 04:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree that it needs no citation—WP:RS is just a core WP principle. If you and I disagree about the fact of its "prominence" in the BoM, that should be reason enough to justify a citation tag, which is my whole point. Q.E.D. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you need a citation, I recommend this. Bytebear (talk) 04:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's good, but it basically consists of a run-down of the mentions in the book. I'm not sure he's arguing it is of a particular "prominent" role in the book, just that it's definitely "there". It would be good to get some non-apologetic sourcing on it, I suppose, since obviously an LDS Church source is going to frame it from a particular POV. But it's certainly better than nothing. Personally, I would consider "prominent" in the BoM: teachings about Jesus; accounts of wars; a personal visitation of Jesus; quotations from Isaiah and other prophets; accounts of civilisation downfalls as a result of pride; and others. But not temple worship. But that's just my view. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Controversy section
If the controversy section is to be added (and whether it should or not is a whole other issue), it's probably more relevant at Temple (LDS Church), since the section is all about LDS Church temples, not Latter Day Saint temples in general, which is what this article is about. The section should be removed from this article. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I reverted the edits. One of the weaknesses of LDS related articles is the vast amount of repetition that is found. I would like to see fewer articles that cover the topics, not more articles that just simply repeat what is already present in several other articles. -- Storm  Rider  04:24, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I was a bit surprised when the LDS Church-specific article was created, as I thought this one was doing the job nicely. It's confusing for the average encyclopedia user, I would think. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:49, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The controversy section defines a balanced perspective on LDS temples. (At least it should...) Not everyone is in love with the church or its beliefs. Some have been effected negatively by the LDS beleifs at marriage time. The controversy sections represents this in a balanced and unbiased approach. This section has been present in this article for some time. It was removed early November for some reason. I don't know why it was removed. I can't find any discussion about it. It was just suddenly gone. Maybe vandalism? This section should be present in this article. If it needs some clean up changes lets talk about that instead of just removing it completely. I actually made some changes to it some time ago and cleaned up some of the links which indeed were somewhat dubvious. So I am restoring the article to its former accuracy and balance as to say. User: ant75 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's the problem. 90% of the text in the "controversay" section is quoting official church policies on temple weddings, then there are only two referrences that say those policies are bad, and both come from questionable sources (Utah Lighthouse Ministries and lds-mormon.com).  So, why repeat policies that are in the article already to make a point that people don't like them.  It's overkill and extremely POV.  You are basically presenting every policy in a negative way, when they should be presented in a neutral way.  Bytebear (talk) 06:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Criticism is handled do differently from article to article. Not "liking" the doctrine of one religion is not criticism...it is "not liking it". In Catholicism, as Mormonism, marriage is a sacrament and only Catholics can marry Catholics and result in a marriage that is recognized by the Catholic Church. I have no problem with criticism sections in articles, but they should not be repetition, that should be legitimate criticism. For religion topics stating the obvious is not criticism. My religion is better than your religion, X does not believe in Y, this people really tick me off, etc. is not criticism. If two people join a religion and they want to get married and their religion says they have to get married on the moon, it is not the religion's fault for the requirement, it is the two people who commit to get married on the moon. This is the type of quasi-criticism that I find so objectionable; it is the "I don't like your beliefs" genre that is so silly. Don't state the obvious, don't be repetitive, use reputable sources, and make sure you use accurate references that can be checked by other editors.
 * As an aside, I thought this was a section that was recently added that I deleted; no? -- Storm  Rider  07:14, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And to restate my original point—if included, why isn't it going in Temple (LDS Church)? Since the criticism is denomination-specific, it should go in the denomination-specific article, and not in this more general one. I think the new article was created since the section was deleted in early Nov, as Ant says it was. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:42, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks like I'm three months behind the times. Back in November, the controversy section was removed, but has actually been copied word for word into the new article Temple (LDS Church) as Storm Rider mentions above. I wasn't aware of this newer second article until now. Sorry, it all just keeps changing so fast! So I agree there is no need to have this controversy section in both articles, so I have removed it from this article once again. Sorry to waste everyones time.talk) 6 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ant75 (talk • contribs)

Content fork?
I can't see an obvious difference between this page and Temple (LDS Church), suggesting either it is a content fork or both lead sections need to be adjusted for greater clarity. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/complex 13:30, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That page deals strictly with temples of the Utah-based LDS church, while this is a broader-based one covering temples in all Latter Day Saint sects. - Ecjmartin (talk) 12:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Temple of Solomon
Is it true that Mormon Temples are meant to replicatea aspects of solomon's Temple. and, if so, would someone who knows something about it write it up on Replicas of the Jewish Temple. thank you.Historicist (talk) 23:04, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * actually, according to this site the Mesa Arizona temple is "suggestive of pre-Columbian temples and the Temple of Herod."  It could probably be included in your list All LDS Temples have a baptismal font, designed from the description of the "brazen sea" of Solomon's temple. Also, the visitors' center at Temple Square in Salt Lake City has a model of the Holy Land, including the temple of Solomon.Bytebear (talk) 23:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I’d agree it duplicates []Temple_(LDS_Church)]]. Dharmadha2 (talk) 02:43, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

This page is very similar to Temple_(LDS_Church) Dharmadha2 (talk) 02:45, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

No people allowed in temple images?
Why are there never any people visible in LDS published images of the temples? Is that not allowed for some reason? It would help to put the building size in proportion -- 92.229.77.243 (talk) 17:05, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no reason for a picture not to have a person in front of them; it is just a matter of who is taking the picture and their objective. Obainting pictures of temples with people so that a sense of scale is introduced would be helpful for readers. I don't think it is necessary for all pictures, but at least some of them.
 * As for as those published by the LDS Church it is a matter of importance. You will find many pictures of temples with people in front of them particularly at temple dedications etc., but more often than not the temple itself (themselves) is the focus of most pictures. The issue of scale is a priority for taking the picture. Hope this helps. -- Storm  Rider  17:45, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I know this is probably not terribly helpful, but when architectural renditions of temples are generated before they are built, the renditions often show people on walkways, automobiles in adjacent parking lots, etc, to help people get an idea of size. Once a temple is built, there is normally enough information available online regarding size that it becomes unnecessary. But no-- there is no specific prohibition of a person appearing in a photograph of a temple, it's just (as was mentioned above) that the Church wishes to emphasize the building, not people near it. Kingsfold (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Cutlerite information
I took all the Cutlerite temple info, which was previously split between two different sections, and combined it into one section, all its own. While the Cutlerites have never built a temple of their own, per se, their meetinghouse is essentially a temple, as they perform all the temple ordinances (save Eternal marriage, which they don't recognize) there, including the Endowment and Baptism for the Dead. This gives their meetinghouse the effective status of a temple, even if they don't call it such--hence, my moving it to its own section, instead of leaving it in the "other buildings" and "other denominations" sections. If anyone disagrees, please contact me before reverting my edits, if you don't mind, and let's talk about it... Cheers! - Ecjmartin (talk) 23:48, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Same topic
Hi, I suggest that this article can be merged with Temple (LDS Church). Both articles talk about the same topic. Jmvkrecords ⚜ Intra Talk 06:23, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Respectfully oppose - The article you mention is specific to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is but one denomination in the Latter Day Saint movement. This article, on the other hand, is broader in scope, encompassing temples of other denominations within the movement.  Since the LDS church has so many temples, they should retain an article of their own, while this one remains the broader-focused reference.  But that's just my opinion. - Ecjmartin (talk) 12:30, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, while the vast majority (about 98%, so I am probably still not fully conveying how things are) of people in the Latter Day Saint movement are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the terms are not synonymous. I do have to say that "but one denomination" just does not express what is going on.  However this article has large sections dealing with temples in the Community of Christ and other denominations.  It makes sense to have both articles since they cover different topics, even if there is some overlap.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Other comments? ok, if no other comments, we can remove the template. Indeed, many religious denominations confuse me when I'm doing Wikidata's maintenance. Thank you all. Jmvkrecords ⚜ Intra Talk 01:41, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose to merge Temple (LDS Church) into Temple (Latter Day Saints). It seems they duplicate each other. (Generated using markasduplicate.js.) -- Ayack ( talk ) 10:08, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Not sure. On the one hand, I can see that this is confusing for readers and editors. On the other hand, Temple (LDS Church) is a substantial article that would make Temple (Latter Day Saints) quite long if we merged them together. I can see the benefits and disadvantages of both approaches. I'm happy to go where consensus leads us. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:11, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Counter-proposal: Hope it's okay I'm weighing in here, as I was not among those tagged above. But it seems to me that we don't necessarily need a lengthy article in conjunction with an article that merges all the relevant sections and pages that are currently duplicating or overlapping in content. Here's my suggestion, which I will term a "counter-proposal": I think it would make more sense if we put links to and summaries of all applicable branch articles about temples in an article mainspace entitled something like "Temples in the Latter Day Saint movement". That article could then be divided into whatever degree of content ws'd opt to include as a summary overview for each of the different sections, such as Temples in Mormonism; Latter Day Saint temples, and Temples in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with other appropriate subdivisions for any other major sects or branches of the movement that we'd like to include. I don't know if that would be a way to deal with the concerns raised here, but if it is, it may just be worth considering. We already have pages for the Wikiproject that is entitled "Latter Day Saint movement", so why not extend that to "Temples in the Latter Day Saint movement", and, by extension, to every other topic for which we'd want to provide segmented coverage under that general umbrella? Hope this suggestion is helpful. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:25, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The article Temple (Latter Day Saints) is essentially the equivalent of a "Temples in the Latter Day Saints movement", and Temple (LDS Church) is the equivalent of "Temples in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". The question is whether we fold the latter (Temple (LDS Church)) into the former (Temple (Latter Day Saints)) as an expanded subsection. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:52, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Good Ol'factory, thanks for clarifying that point for me. That being the case, I'd shift from the counter-proposal mentioned by me above to note that I'd be okay with whatever the consensus decides on this issue. Frankly, I can see the benefits (and downsides) to each option as presented here. So any option favored by the consensus would be fine by me. Thanks again. --Jgstokes (talk) 00:47, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't Merge I think it is fine the way it is. It would make Temple(Latter Day Saints) too long if they were merged. Epachamo (talk) 18:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't Merge While much of these two articles covers the same material, much of them is distinct enough to warrant separate articles. And as noted above, merging would create far too long of one article. Rollidan (talk) 03:59, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

 * Note that I've added about templates to help distinguish the two. Klbrain (talk) 23:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Temple (Latter Day Saints)


text:
Race and Economics

Race and Economics is a book by Thomas Sowell, in which the author analyzes the relationship between race and wealth in the United States, specifically, that of blacks. The book was initially published by David McKay Company in January 1975.

Overview
Sowell makes three basic arguments. First, he examines the economic impact of slavery, in the United States, the West Indies, and elsewhere. He distinguishes rural slavery from urban slavery, and circumstances in which blacks so predominated that many economic tasks fell to them of necessity, from circumstances in which blacks were punished for initiative and the development of skills.

Next, he compares the economic skills, circumstances, and successes of American blacks, other blacks, Puerto Ricans, Chicanos, Jews, Irish, Italians, Scots, and other ethnic groups. He notes statistical quirks; e.g., comparisons of per capita income need to be checked against the median age of the groups concerned. The median age of Russians in the U.S. at the time of the book's publishing (1975) was 47, of the Irish 36, of blacks 23, of Puerto Ricans, 18. Income tends to be higher in higher age cohorts; and unemployment tends to be higher in lower cohorts. If one matches age cohort to age cohort—those in their twenties, in their thirties, in their forties, etc., comparisons are considerably more just.

He also argues that the stark comparisons between "whites" and "blacks" are misleading.

His third argument criticizes past governmental and economic policies, and opens up questions for the future. He has criticisms to make of liberals, radicals, and conservatives, each of whom, he finds, protect their favorite illusions with respect to blacks.

Race and Economics greatly influenced Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas.

title: Race and Economics


text:
Talk:Alien Love Secrets

Fair use rationale for Image:SteveVaiAlienLoveSecrets.jpg
Image:SteveVaiAlienLoveSecrets.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 11:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merger: "Juice"
This song currently has its own article, but is otherwise non-notable. It did not chart, is not cited as a hugely popular Vai song, and any appearances in video games, etc. are already mentioned in this album article. Therefore, will go ahead and merge immediately. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 12:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alien Love Secrets


text:
Hunter Smith

Hunter Dwight Smith (born August 9, 1977) is a former American football punter. He was drafted by the Indianapolis Colts in the seventh round of the 1999 NFL Draft. He played college football at Notre Dame.

Smith earned a Super Bowl ring with the Colts in Super Bowl XLI as they beat the Chicago Bears. He is currently running to be a member of the Indiana House of Representatives.

Early years
Smith attended Sherman High School in Sherman, Texas and was a letterman in football, basketball, and track. In football, he saw action as a quarterback, tight end, punter, and kicker, and was a two-time Texas All-State selection.

College career
Smith played in all 45 career games for the University of Notre Dame over the course of his four seasons. He also handled all field goal holding duties. He ranks third on the schools career record list with 174 total punts and second on career yardage with an average of 41.2 yards per punt. Originally recruited as a QB, Smith also handled the emergency quarterback role. In both 1998 and 1999, Smith was Football News All-Independent first-team. Smith also joined the track and field team at Notre Dame as a high jumper. Hunter graduated from Notre Dame in 1999 with degrees in Theology and Sociology.

Professional career
During his rookie season in 1999, he was selected to the NFL All-Rookie Team and was named Pro Bowl Alternate 3 times throughout his career.

Smith was named AFC special teams player of the week while playing for Indianapolis in 2005.

Smith threw a touchdown pass for the Washington Redskins against the Denver Broncos on November 15, 2009. The 35-yard pass went to the fullback, Mike Sellers. Smith was subsequently named the NFC special teams player of the week. He had previously run for an 8-yard touchdown against the New York Giants in the season's first game, making him the first special-teams player in NFL history to run and pass for a TD in the same season. He has scored three touchdowns in his NFL career.

On October 7, 2010, the Redskins signed Smith after a season-ending injury to Josh Bidwell.

On December 14, 2010, the Redskins cut Smith after botching an extra point attempt, a result of him allowing the snap pass through his hands as he held for kicker Graham Gano. At the time, the Redskins trailed the Tampa Bay Buccaneers 17–16 with nine seconds to play in the fourth quarter. The Redskins lost the game.

Political career
In December of 2023, Smith announced his bid to run for the Indiana House of Representatives. In District 24 he won the 2024 Republican primary with 61% of the vote. He will face Josh Lowry in the general election.

Personal life
Smith, a devout Christian, is a member of the band Connersvine. Connersvine has an acoustic-driven rock sound. Made up of Chris Wilson and Smith, the acoustic duo sings about their religious faith, both recorded and live, sometimes on their own, and often time with a full band. "The Hunter Smith Band" is the name of the full ensemble.

In 2005, he wrote and performed a song on the Bob and Tom Show, titled "The Most Accurate Holder to Ever Play the Game," referring to his holding duties for former Colts kicker Mike Vanderjagt.

In 2007, Connersvine performed in Houston at the Cynthia Woods Mitchell Pavilion as part of a 25th anniversary celebration for Christian radio station KSBJ. The evening began with their performance followed by TobyMac and MercyMe among other artists. He and his wife, Jennifer, and their four kids, Josiah, Samuel, Lydia, and Beau reside in Zionsville, IN.

Smith published a book in 2012, The Jersey Effect: Beyond the World Championship, which is about several Colt players who played in Super Bowl XLI, examining their championship success and battles they faced too. He is now the lead singer in The Hunter Smith Band.

title: Hunter Smith


text: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2005 February 10


text:
Arnaz Battle

Arnaz Jerome Battle (born February 22, 1980) is a former American football wide receiver. He was selected by the San Francisco 49ers in the sixth round of the 2003 NFL Draft. He played college football at Notre Dame. Battle also played for the Pittsburgh Steelers. He is the son of former NFL tight end Ron Battle.

Early life
When Arnaz was nine years old, Brandon, his younger brother died in a tragic drowning accident. On his upper left arm appears a tattoo of his late brother's face. He prepped at C. E. Byrd High School, where he finished with 5,137 total yards and rushed for 49 career touchdowns while throwing for 28 more and scored one touchdown on a kickoff return. He was a Parade All-America selection and was rated 39th-best player nationally by The Sporting News and 52nd-best player by Chicago Sun-Times. A USA Today honorable mention All-America and third-team All-South quarterback by Fox Sports South.

College career
Battle played quarterback for the University of Notre Dame in his first two seasons, and was named the starting quarterback in 2000. However, against No.1 Nebraska in the second game of the year, Battle suffered a broken wrist on the first play from scrimmage and was forced to sit out the remainder of the season. The following year, he was converted to wide receiver, because of his great speed and running ability. He tallied 53 receptions for 742 yards (14.0 avg.) and five touchdowns, adding 314 yards and one touchdown on 62 carries in career. He was an All-America honorable mention and All-Independent first-team selection by The NFL Draft Report, following his senior season at the University of Notre Dame. He saw time at quarterback and completed 30-of-69 passes for 438 yards and two touchdowns. He added academic honors, while maintaining a 3.2 grade point average and majored in sociology and computer applications.

San Francisco 49ers
In 2003, he saw action in eight games and recorded two carries for 14 yards to go along with eight tackles and two fumble recoveries on special teams before finishing season on injured reserve with left toe injury.

In 2004, he saw action in 14 games and registered career-highs in punt returns (31), punt return yards (266), kickoff returns (13), kickoff return yards (257) and special teams tackles (16). He was Inactive for the final two contests of the season with a thigh injury. He returned a career-long 71-yard punt return for a touchdown vs. the Arizona Cardinals.

In 2005, he played in 10 games with eight starts and tallied 32 receptions for 363 yards with three touchdowns. He was inactive for six contests due to a knee injury. He led the team in receiving with five receptions for 59 yards and recorded his first career touchdown on a six-yard pass from quarterback Tim Rattay vs. the St. Louis Rams. He also completed his first career pass on a 24-yard connection to WR Brandon Lloyd followed by his second career completion later in quarter with a three-yard shovel pass to RB Frank Gore.

In 2006, he played in 16 games with 15 starts and ranked second on the team with career-highs of 59 receptions and 686 receiving yards. He was the only receiver in the NFL with 40 or more catches and no dropped passes. He caught four passes for 37 yards and two tough, short-yardage touchdowns vs. the Oakland Raiders, marking his first career multi-touchdown receiving game. He also hauled in five receptions for 97 yards against the Seattle Seahawks, and added one carry for a career-long 18 yards. In 2007, he played in 16 games with 15 starts, posting 50 catches for a team-high 600 yards while setting career-highs in touchdown receptions (five) and total touchdowns (six). He was also named as the captain of all of the wide receivers. In the season opener on Monday Night Football against Arizona, he caught a team-high five receptions for 60 yards, while also scoring the go-ahead score on his first career rushing touchdown, a one-yard end around with 22 seconds remaining to give the 49ers a 20–17 victory. He caught a 57-yard touchdown at Arizona, the 49ers' longest play from scrimmage in 2007. It marked the second longest reception of his career behind a 65-yarder he had from Tim Rattay vs. the Dallas Cowboys. He played, but did not start due to an ankle injury suffered against the Minnesota Vikings and caught two passes for 13 yards with one touchdown. His touchdown catch came in the third quarter on QB Shaun Hill's first career touchdown pass.

Battle logged his first 100-yard game with a 120-yard performance during Week 4 of the 2008 season. He was placed on season-ending injured reserve with a foot injury on December 13, 2008. He finished the 2008 season with 24 catches for 318 yards.

In 2009 finished with 5 catches for 40 yards and help in Special Teams.

Pittsburgh Steelers
On March 8, 2010, Battle signed a three-year contract with the Pittsburgh Steelers worth $3.975 million with $975,000 to sign; He did not have a reception during his first season, but was a standout on special teams. The next year, he was named team captain for special teams. The Steelers released Battle on February 8, 2012.

Personal life
His father, Ron Battle, played football at North Texas and then as a tight end for two seasons with the Los Angeles Rams. He is married to Billye Battle and has four children.

title: Arnaz Battle


text:
Kennedy Doctrine

The Kennedy Doctrine refers to foreign policy initiatives of the 35th President of the United States, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, towards Latin America during his administration between 1961 and 1963. Kennedy voiced support for the containment of communism as well as the reversal of communist progress in the Western Hemisphere.

Inaugural address: "Pay any price, bear any burden"
In his inaugural address on January 20, 1961, President Kennedy presented the American public with a blueprint upon which the future foreign policy initiatives of his administration would later follow and come to represent. In this Address, Kennedy warned "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."1 He also called upon the public to assist in "a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself."1 It is in this address that one begins to see the Cold War. This speech laid out clearly, a vision of peace through strength and strength through international coalitions committed to the protection and expansion of the American ideals of Peace, Liberty and Justice for all.

Cold War containment
A dominant premise during the Kennedy years was the need to contain communism at any cost. In this Cold War environment, Kennedy's "call for military strength and unison in the struggle against communism were balanced with... [hopes] for disarmament and global cooperation."2 Another common theme in Kennedy's foreign policy was the belief that the United States had the ability and power to influence events in the international system for the better. Kennedy expressed this idea in his address when he stated, "In the long history of the world only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom from its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility – I welcome it."1

Historical background
The Kennedy Doctrine was essentially an expansion of the foreign policy prerogatives of the administrations of Dwight D. Eisenhower and Harry S. Truman. The foreign policies of these presidents all revolved around the threat of communism and the means by which the US would try containing the spread of it.

The Truman Doctrine focused on the containment of communism by providing assistance to countries resisting communism in Europe.

The Eisenhower Doctrine was focused upon providing both military and economic assistance to nations resisting communism in the Middle East, and by increasing the flow of trade from the US into Latin America. The Kennedy Doctrine was based on these same objectives, but was more concerned with the spread of communism and Soviet influence in Latin America following the Cuban Revolution that brought Fidel Castro to power under Eisenhower.

Alliance for Progress
In his inaugural address, Kennedy talks of an alliance for progress with countries in Latin America. In his Alliance for Progress address for Latin American Diplomats and Members of Congress on March 13, 1961, he expanded on his promises from his inaugural speech. "I have called on all the people of the hemisphere to join in a new Alliance for Progress – alianza para el Progreso – a vast cooperative effort, unparalleled in magnitude and nobility of purpose, to satisfy the basic needs of the American people for homes, work and land, health and schools – techo, trabajo y tierra, salud y escuela."3

In the address, Kennedy reaffirmed the United States' pledge of coming to the defense of any nation whose independence was endangered, promised to increase the food-for-peace emergency program and to provide economic aid to nations in need. He requested that Latin American countries promote social change within their borders and called upon all American nations to move towards increased economic integration. "To achieve this goal political freedom must accompany material progress. Our Alliance for Progress is an alliance of free governments – and it must work to eliminate tyranny from a hemisphere in which it has no rightful place. Therefore let us express our special friendship to the people of Cuba and the Dominican Republic – and the hope they will soon rejoin the society of free men, uniting with us in our common effort."3

Debate over international role of United States
Many have questioned whether Kennedy's Inaugural Address, and the foreign policy stemming from the vision he expressed in it "describes an appropriate, rational, and prudent role for the United States in the world; whether it is an outline for an era of negotiation and accommodation and friendship; or whether it is a prescription for an untenable globalism, leading inevitably to increased areas of conflict, to a heightening of the arms race, and to American concern with and involvement, to one degree or another, in the affairs of almost every country in the world."4

What remains clear is that Kennedy was deeply involved and committed to every aspect of the foreign policy under his administration. W. Averell Harriman served in and on behalf of Kennedy's Administration in several capacities, and noted, "President Kennedy was the first President, that I know of, who was really his own secretary of state. He dealt with every aspect of foreign policy, and he knew about everything that was going on."5

Derived events
Some of the most notable events that stemmed from tenets of JFK's foreign policy initiatives in regard to Latin America and the spread of communism were:6

 * The Bay of Pigs Invasion, April 17, 1961.
 * Increase of U.S. involvement in Vietnam War, 1962.
 * Cuban Missile Crisis, October 1962.
 * Ratification of Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, July 1963.

title: Kennedy Doctrine


text:
Michael Franks (musician)

Michael Franks (born September 18, 1944) is an American singer and songwriter, considered a leader of the quiet storm movement. He has recorded with a variety of well-known artists, such as Patti Austin, Art Garfunkel, Brenda Russell, Claus Ogerman, Joe Sample, and David Sanborn. His songs have been recorded by Gordon Haskell,  Shirley Bassey, The Carpenters, Kurt Elling, Diana Krall, Patti LaBelle,  Lyle Lovett, The Manhattan Transfer, Leo Sidran, Veronica Nunn, Carmen McRae, Ringo Starr and Natalie Cole.

Biography
Franks grew up in southern California with his father Thurman, his mother Vera, and two younger sisters. Although no one in his family was a musician, his parents loved swing music, and his early influences included Peggy Lee, Nat King Cole, George Gershwin, Irving Berlin, and Johnny Mercer. At age 14 Franks bought his first guitar, a Japanese Marco Polo for $29.95 with six private lessons included; those lessons were the only music education that he received.

At University High in San Diego, Franks discovered the poetry of Theodore Roethke with his off-rhymes and hidden meter. In high school, he began singing folk-rock, accompanying himself on guitar. Studying English at UCLA, Michael discovered Dave Brubeck, Patti Page, Stan Getz, João Gilberto, Antonio Carlos Jobim, and Miles Davis. He never studied music in college or later, but earned a Bachelor of Arts degree from UCLA in comparative literature in 1966 and a Master of Arts degree from the University of Oregon in 1968. He had a teaching assistantship in a Ph.D. program in American literature at the University of Montreal before returning to teach part-time at UCLA.

During this time Franks started writing songs, starting with the antiwar musical Anthems in E-flat (1968) starring Mark Hamill. He also composed music for the films Cockfighter (1974), starring Warren Oates, and Zandy's Bride (1974), starring Liv Ullmann and Gene Hackman. Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee recorded three of his songs, including "White Boy Lost in the Blues" on their album Sonny & Brownie. Franks played guitar, banjo and mandolin on the album and joined them in touring. In 1973, he recorded an eponymous album, later reissued as Previously Unavailable, which included the minor hit "Can't Seem to Shake This Rock 'n Roll."

In 1976 Franks released his second album The Art of Tea, which saw Franks begin a long relationship with Warner Bros. Records. The Art of Tea featured Joe Sample, Larry Carlton, and Wilton Felder of the Crusaders and included the hit song "Popsicle Toes". His third album, Sleeping Gypsy (1977), which includes the song "The Lady Wants to Know", was partially recorded in Brazil. Around this time, percussionist Ray Armando gave Franks a cabasa, which became a signature instrument for him to play on stage when he was not playing guitar. Burchfield Nines (1978), which includes the song "When the Cookie Jar Is Empty," reflects his move to New York City and features more of an East Coast sound. Since then, Franks recorded more than 15 albums.

His best known works include "When I Give My Love to You," "Popsicle Toes," "Monkey See, Monkey Do," "Lotus Blossom," "Tiger in the Rain," "Rainy Night in Tokyo," and "Tell Me All About It." His biggest hit came in 1983 with "When Sly Calls (Don't Touch That Phone)" from the album Passionfruit. Radio hits include "Your Secret's Safe With Me" from 1985's Skin Dive, and "Island Life" from 1987's The Camera Never Lies.

Michael Franks also recorded his cover version of "Christmas Time Is Here" (the Christmas classic) with jazz pianist David Benoit released in 1996 on Benoit's Christmas album, Remembering Christmas.

Singles
1975 - Popsicle Toes (U.S. Pop #43, U.S. AC #45)

1977 - The Lady Wants to Know

1978 - When the Cookie Jar Is Empty

1979 - When It's Over

1980 - On My Way Home to You

1980 - One Bad Habit

1980 - Baseball

1982 - Jealousy

1982 - Love Duet (with Renee Diggs)

1982 - Comin' Home to You

1983 - Can't Seem to Shake This Rock 'n Roll

1985 - Your Secret's Safe with Me (U.S. AC #4, Canada AC #9)

1985 - When I Give My Love to You (with Brenda Russell)

1985 - Queen of the Underground

1985 - Michael Franks

1987 - Island Life

1987 - The Camera Never Lies

1987 - Doctor Sax / Face to Face

1990 - The Art of Love (U.S. R&B #59)

1990 - Speak to Me (U.S. R&B #73)

1991 - Practice Makes Perfect

1991 - Woman in the Waves

1992 - The Dream (with Yellowjackets)

1993 - Soulmate

1996 - Christmas Time Is Here (with David Benoit)

2003 - Christmas in Kyoto

2004 - Smash Up 1

title: Michael Franks (musician)