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Ted Kennedy (ice hockey)

Theodore Samuel "Teeder" Kennedy (December 12, 1925 – August 14, 2009) was a professional ice hockey centre who played his entire career with the Toronto Maple Leafs from 1943 to 1957 and was captain for eight seasons. Along with Turk Broda, he was the first player in NHL history to win five Stanley Cups, and he was the last Maple Leaf to win the Hart Trophy for most valuable player, until Auston Matthews in 2022. He was an essential contributor to the Maple Leafs becoming what many consider as the National Hockey League's first dynasty. He was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1966. He has been called the quintessential Maple Leaf and by some the greatest player in the team's history. In 2017 Kennedy was named one of the '100 Greatest NHL Players' in history.

Kennedy was raised in the small Ontario town of Humberstone, now Port Colborne. Kennedy was born just eleven days after his father was killed in a hunting accident. His mother, left alone to raise four children, took a job at the local hockey arena which became Kennedy's second home. After a stellar junior hockey career, Kennedy first came to the attention of the Montreal Canadiens and attended their training camp while still in high school. Disappointed and heart sick at the idea of not playing for his favourite team, Montréal who owned his rights eventually traded him to Toronto for defencemen Frank Eddols. A move that contributed to the falling out between Conn Smythe who was away fighting the war with the 48th Highlanders in Europe, and Frank Selke who was left behind to manage the team, resulting in the latter eventually leaving the Leafs organization for the Canadiens.

Although young, Kennedy was successful with Toronto from the start. In his first season, the 18-year-old finished second on the team in scoring and then in his sophomore year was considered the star of Toronto's upset of the record-breaking Montreal Canadiens of 1944–45. He established himself as the leader of the team and became captain in 1948. Although not the best skater in the league, Kennedy was a fierce forechecker and skilled playmaker. Kennedy was a perfect fit into coach Hap Day's emphasis on defence and positional play. He gained a reputation for scoring the important goal and excelling in the playoffs. Kennedy holds the Toronto Maple Leafs' all-time record for career points in the Stanley Cup Finals and is the youngest player in the history of the NHL to have scored a Stanley Cup winning goal. A Sports Illustrated poll of hockey experts in 1998 rated Kennedy as having the best face-off skills in the history of the NHL.

Youth
Ted "Teeder" Kennedy was born December 12, 1925, in the small village of Humberstone, Ontario, which in 1970 was amalgamated into the city of Port Colborne. Ted's father, Gordon Kennedy, was killed in a hunting accident eleven days before he was born and his mother, Margaret, was left to raise a family of four children. To supplement her income she took a job selling confectioneries at a local hockey arena which became young Ted's second home. When Ted was seven years old a family friend took him to Toronto to see the first two games of the 1932 Stanley Cup Finals and from watching those games Maple Leaf right winger Charlie Conacher became his childhood hero. He wore Conacher's no. 9 throughout his minor hockey career. In Port Colborne, Kennedy was childhood friends with Elmer Iseler, who found fame as a choir conductor and Don Gallinger who became infamous when he was banned for life by the NHL for gambling while playing with the Boston Bruins in 1948.

Kennedy played with the Port Colborne Lions in the Ontario Minor Hockey Association as a bantam, midget and juvenile. His nickname "Teeder" is a short form of his real name which was used by other neighbourhood boys because they could not pronounce "Theodore" and was overheard by a local reporter with the Welland Tribune. During Kennedy's NHL years, newspapers often used the spelling "Teeter". Kennedy was captain of the midget Port Colborne Lions when they won the O.M.H.A. Championship in 1941. The Toronto Star described the 15-year-old Kennedy as a "shifty rightwinger" who had "paced the Lions to victory, scoring five goals, two of which were solo efforts." On May 7, 1941, at a banquet in Port Colborne honouring the championship team, one of the speakers was Hap Day, coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs. He spoke to the players, advising them that "keen desire" and "hard work" was required to get to the top in hockey as in any job in life and that hockey salaries were "equal to other leading professions". Day then presented members of the team with jackets bearing the championship crest. In only two years, Kennedy was playing for Hap Day's Toronto Maple Leafs.

The next season Kennedy's juvenile team made it to the finals. During the season, Kennedy had scored seven goals in one game and six in another and it was efforts such as those which were attracting the attention of professional hockey people. The first team to approach Kennedy was the NHL's Montreal Canadiens, although for Kennedy "It was a boyhood dream to play for Toronto." Dinty Moore, also of Port Colborne, brought Kennedy to the attention Montreal General Manager Tommy Gorman and Kennedy was put on their negotiation list. In the fall of 1942, Montreal contacted the sixteen-year-old about joining the Canadiens. Kennedy's mother was wary of a career in hockey for her son as he was also headed towards studying business at the University of Western Ontario. She agreed to let her son attend the training camp when Montreal scout Dinty Moore assured her Ted was going to receive a good education at Montreal's prestigious Lower Canada College and they were going to cover the cost. Upon arriving in Montreal, foreshadowing future troubles, Kennedy discovered there was no one from the Canadiens to greet him at the train. The teenager was left to his own devices to check into a hotel and make his way around the new city. Then later, as he tried to combine hockey and school, he became concerned his studies were suffering and approached Canadien management to ask if they could find him accommodation closer to the school. He felt they were unresponsive and he soon became disillusioned with the experience in Montreal. After three weeks in Montreal he was feeling homesick and upon completing spring training with the Montreal Royals, he returned to Port Colborne in mid-November.

Back home, Kennedy played with the Port Colborne Sailors of the OHA Sr. league for the 1942–43 hockey season. The Port Colborne coach was former NHL star and Hall of Fame inductee Nels Stewart who had been hired in November. Stewart became a mentor to Kennedy, working on his playmaking skills. Kennedy credits Stewart with teaching him how to "operate in front of the net". Kennedy finished the season second in the league, only one point behind scoring champion, Dillon Brady of Hamilton. It was during this time that Kennedy debuted as a player at Maple Leaf Gardens. OHA senior teams played at the Gardens on Friday evenings and this included Kennedy and the Port Colborne Sailors. At the end of the season, in early February 1943, in spite of his having abandoned the Royals, Montreal scout Gus Ogilvie was sent to induce Kennedy to sign a contract with the promise that if he signed, he would finish the season with the Canadiens in the NHL. Concerned about his treatment in Montreal, he declined, despite being warned by Ogilvie, "Well, you know, Ted, if you turn pro, it will have to be with the Canadiens." Kennedy now thought his dreams of playing in the NHL were over. However, Nels Stewart believed in Kennedy, considering him "a coming great", and recommended him to the Toronto Maple Leafs. Shortly thereafter, Kennedy was called out of his grade 11 Latin class to the principal's office. Kennedy, the high school student, was at first worried about what he may have done wrong, but it turned out to be a phone call from Nels Stewart. Stewart had arranged a meeting with General Manager of the Leafs Frank Selke and Kennedy had to travel immediately to Toronto. Unlike Montreal, the Maple Leafs had someone there to meet Kennedy when he got off the train. Kennedy signed a contract that evening.

Style of play
Although Kennedy was not a gifted skater, he compensated with a fierce determination and tireless hard work. Among modern era players his style of play has been compared to Bobby Clarke and Jarome Iginla. Line-mate Howie Meeker said that while he was a much better skater than Kennedy, "He went from A to B just as fast I could because he went through people" [sic]. Kennedy was a perfect fit into coach Hap Day's coaching style of emphasizing defense, positional hockey and physical play. He brought to the Leafs a classy, humble leadership and the knack for scoring goals when they were most needed. He fought for every inch of ice and was difficult to separate from the puck. He was also known for his agility, stick-handling, playmaking, passing skills and physical toughness.

Dick Irvin once compared the styles of Syl Apps, previous captain of the Leafs, to Kennedy in how the two centres used their wingers. "Apps used to hit the defence at top speed and Gordie Drillon would come along and pick up the garbage", said Irvin, whereas Kennedy would "go into the corners and get the puck out to their wings." Hap Day had said he could see Nels Stewart's influence on Kennedy. Like Stewart, Kennedy had a more upright lie on his hockey stick which kept the puck closer to his feet. Kennedy was also widely believed to be the best faceoff man in hockey and seldom lost an important faceoff. Along with his regular shift, he also played a role on the penalty kill.

Making the team
On March 3, 1943, Kennedy signed a professional contract with the Toronto Maple Leafs, but management of the Leafs still wished to see Kennedy playing in an NHL game. Late in the 1942–43 season, they received permission from Kennedy's mother to take him out of school so he could accompany them on a road trip. He played in two of the final three games of the regular season, but did not continue with them into the playoffs. Making his NHL debut March 7, 1943, against the New York Rangers at Madison Square Garden, he was put on the Leafs' third line on rightwing, instead of his customary centre position, on a line with Bud Poile and Gaye Stewart. He was told by coach Hap Day to simply "stay with your check and keep him from scoring." Kennedy's line scored three goals and he picked up one assist in a 5–5 tie. He then picked another assist in the next game in Boston. Kennedy had impressed the Leaf coaches, but his rights were still "officially" owned by the Montreal Canadiens.

Toronto first tried to buy his rights from Montreal, but a trade was arranged exchanging Kennedy for Frank Eddolls. Toronto newspapers of the day in reporting the trade described the 17-year-old Kennedy as "a rangy youngster whose record in the OHA is exceptionally good", that he was "highly recommended by other hockey men" and was a "high-scoring right-winger". Nevertheless, interim manager Frank Selke had made the trade while Conn Smythe, owner of the Leafs, was away in service in World War II and Eddolls was one of his prized prospects. Smythe was furious when he discovered the trade, creating a rift between the two which ultimately led Selke to leave Toronto to manage the Canadiens. Ironically, Kennedy eventually became Smythe's favourite player and he called Kennedy "the greatest competitor in hockey". Looking back, some hockey pundits have called the trade the best the Toronto Maple Leafs have ever made. In 2001, Sports Illustrated writer and Montreal native, Michael Farber, included the Kennedy trade for Eddolls as one of "the five darkest days" in Montreal Canadiens' history.

Kennedy played full-time with the Leafs for the first time in the 1943–44 season. Although the Leafs had won the Stanley Cup in 1942, at the time of Kennedy's arrival the Leafs were a team decimated by the loss of some of its best players to the war effort. Andy Lytle, sports editor of The Toronto Star, wrote of the Leaf team eliminated from the previous season's playoffs, "I do not suppose that Toronto was so weakly represented in the N.H.L. playoffs since the club originated." During training camp, Kennedy read in a newspaper interview of Coach Hap Day speaking about the best new prospects on the Leafs, but he had failed to mention Kennedy. This served to fire up Kennedy to give an even greater effort towards making the team. Toronto's first pre-season exhibition game was against the St. Catharine Saints, a senior team now being coached by Kennedy's former junior coach Nels Stewart. After the game, Kennedy approached Stewart for advice, because he was disappointed he had not scored in the game. Stewart, who was the all-time NHL goal scoring leader until Maurice Richard overtook him in the 1952–53 season, advised when facing the goaltender to "either draw him out, or pick the corner."

Kennedy began the season playing right wing. Then, in mid-December, Leaf centre Mel Hill fractured his ankle. This gave Kennedy his first opportunity to play regularly at the centre position, where he remained for most of his career. In a January 8 game at Maple Leaf Gardens against the Boston Bruins, the mayor of Port Colborne presented Kennedy and Don Gallinger with gold watches on behalf of his town's citizens. Kennedy finished the season as the team's second best goal-scorer with 26 and was fourth in points. He was just 18 years old. In the playoffs, Toronto faced the powerful Montreal Canadiens. Although Toronto won the first game 3–1, they were then swept in the next four and eliminated from the playoffs. The Toronto Daily Star said of Kennedy's rookie season, "For our money the best rookie of the year though playing with one of the weakest lines in N.H.L. history." Kennedy was ineligible for the rookie-of-the-year award because of the two games he played with the Leafs at the end of the 1942–43 season.

The first Stanley Cup and the great upset
In only his second NHL season, Kennedy finished the 1944–45 regular season leading the team in goals and points with 29 goals and 25 assists. In the last game of the season against the New York Rangers, Kennedy's line-mates fed him pass after pass attempting to get him to 30 goals. The Maple Leafs finished in third place and faced the Montreal Canadiens in the opening round of the playoffs. The Canadiens of 1944–45 were a record-breaking, powerhouse hockey team. Going into the playoffs, their coach, Dick Irvin, declared them as the greatest team to have ever played in the NHL. The Montreal club had the top three point leaders in the league, placed 5 of the 6 positions on the first All-Star team, Maurice Richard had scored his famous 50 goals in 50 games, Montreal had finished 28 points ahead of Toronto and scored almost a goal-per-game more. As of 2009, Montreal's regular season winning percentage for 1944–45 is the fifth highest in NHL history and the year previously they had achieved the second highest in history and won the Stanley Cup. The Leafs were given little chance of winning the series.

As with all NHL playoff series of the era, the winner was the first team to win four games of a best-of-seven. Going into the series, Hap Day made a critical decision to predominantly play only two lines of his best players to compensate for the Canadiens' depth in talent. The first game was in Montreal and no goals were scored for the first two periods. In the third period, with just twenty-two seconds remaining and everyone anticipating overtime, Ted Kennedy banked a backhand shot off the goalpost which then rebounded off goaltender Bill Durnan's pads and into the net to win the game 1–0. The goal shocked the Montreal team, especially as the famed "Punch Line" had been held scoreless. In the second game, also in Montreal, Kennedy struck again only four minutes into the first period scoring the all-important first goal to put the Toronto ahead by 1–0. Toronto went on to win the game 3–2 and were able to leave Montreal with an unexpected 2–0 series lead. Montreal won the next game in Toronto 4–1. In the fourth game in Toronto, Montreal got off to a quick start and led 2–0 on goals by Elmer Lach and Richard, his first of the series, before the game was three minutes old. In the second period, Kennedy set up Mel Hill to get Toronto back in the game and the Leafs went on to win in overtime. As Toronto needed only one more victory to win the series, Montreal was facing elimination in game five in Montreal. Maurice Richard finally overcame Leaf checking and scored four goals in an 11–3 victory. However, Toronto won the sixth game in Maple Leaf Gardens 3–2 to win the series and complete the shocking upset. In the game, Toronto's Elwyn Morris, a defenceman who had scored only one goal all season, sparked the Leafs when he stole the puck from Montreal defenceman Frank Eddolls to score the first goal of the game. Eddolls was the player traded to Montreal to bring Kennedy to Toronto. This series is considered one of the greatest upsets in NHL history.

On completion of the Montreal series, the Globe and Mail said of the 19-year-old Kennedy, "Ted Kennedy's all-round display was the best individual performance of the six-game set." The Toronto Star was even more laudatory "There are a few great hockey players in the N.H.L. today. Kennedy is assuredly and emphatically one." Kennedy said that the 1945 upset of the Canadiens was the peak event of his career.

Toronto faced Detroit in the Stanley Cup Finals. Toronto won the first three games of the series without giving up a goal, as rookie goaltender Frank McCool recorded consecutive shutouts. Toronto then had to ward off a determined Detroit comeback bid, before winning the Stanley Cup in the seventh game. Kennedy had continued with a strong performance against Detroit, scoring the game-winning goal in game 2, was chosen the first star (best player) of game 3 and scored all three goals in a 5–3 loss in game 5.

Conn Smythe realized the importance of finding the right line-mates for Kennedy, telling coach Hap Day in September 1945, "we must get something really rapid to team up with this guy and we'll be set for a decade with a first rate front line." Smythe's first attempt was to acquire future Hockey Hall of Famer Edgar Laprade, at the time a star in senior hockey whose rights were owned by the New York Rangers. A deal could not be made as New York General Manager Lester Patrick was asking for several players in return.

After the triumph of the previous season, the 1945–46 season was a complete loss for Kennedy. He got off to a slow start, beginning the season at right wing before being returned to his center position and he also fell ill. By January Kennedy had only 5 points in 21 games and was then lost for the rest of the season due to an injury to his foot, when a Boston Bruin player's skate dug into his boot. With the Leafs also losing Captain Syl Apps to injury Toronto missed the playoffs.

The NHL's "first dynasty"
On September 19, 1946, an informal ceremony was held in which former Leaf great Charlie Conacher presented Ted Kennedy with his No. 9 sweater he had worn during his career. Conacher had been Kennedy's boyhood hero, but when Kennedy arrived Lorne Carr already wore No.9. Kennedy was initially given No.12, then switched to No. 10. When Kennedy heard Carr was retiring, he immediately wrote a letter to Leaf management requesting No.9. His Leaf teammates had always teased Kennedy about his compulsion, so they contacted Conacher and arranged for the ceremony. Conacher, now working as a broker, explaining why he was willing to take time off work said "He's a good kid and a great player. You just can't disappoint a guy like that."

Conn Smythe instituted a major rebuilding campaign for the 1946–47. Gone from the team was Sweeney Schriner, Lorne Carr, Bob Davidson, Mel Hill, Elwin Morris, Babe Pratt, Billy Taylor and new additions were Harry Watson, Jimmy Thomson, Gus Mortson, Garth Boesch, Joe Klukay, Don Metz, Vic Lynn and Howie Meeker. The team was very young, with six rookies in the lineup, and was felt to be two years away from challenging for the championship. However, some of those rookies, such as Boesch and Meeker, had just returned from the war and were more mature than most. As Hap Day observed, "They'd been through real battles."

Kennedy said that during this period, with all the changes on the team and with players returning from the war he had to "re-establish myself as an NHLer." Due to Kennedy's poor start to the previous season, there was some talk around this time whether Kennedy was going to turn out to be just a "wartime flash in the pan". Many of the players in the NHL during this period failed to stick with their teams once the war ended and the stars returned. However, Kennedy was one of the exceptions and he quickly became one of the team's greatest stars and a favourite of the fans. "Come on, Teeder!" was to become a familiar rallying cry in Maple Leaf Gardens. The cheer, a howl that could be heard throughout the building, was performed by, the otherwise quiet, season ticket-holder John Arnott whenever the Leafs needed a goal.

Kennedy became famous across Canada from the radio broadcasts of Foster Hewitt. It was not until the 1952–53 season that hockey games were broadcast on television in Canada.

Kennedy now centered a line between Howie Meeker and Vic Lynn and they clicked "immediately". These were the line-mates Smythe had been trying to find for Kennedy since 1945. Kennedy served as the playmaker between the fast skating and goal scoring of Meeker and Lynn. Meeker had just returned from the war and Lynn had come up from the American league and both were hungry to stay in the NHL. "We were very eager people", Kennedy recalled. The line soon acquired the nickname the "KLM" line.

At the end of the season Kennedy led the Leafs in points and they finished in second place to Montreal. In the first round of the playoffs Toronto faced Detroit. Except for a one-sided 9–1 loss in the second game in Detroit, Toronto dominated the series and won in five games. Toronto now faced Montreal for the Stanley Cup. The match up was between the very young Maple Leafs and the veteran Montreal Canadiens who had dominated the NHL for the past four years. After Toronto lost the opening game by a one-sided 6–0, Canadien goaltender Bill Durnan was quoted in a Montreal newspaper as saying, "How did the Maple Leafs manage to get into the playoffs?" Hap Day used the quote to inspire his team. In the second game, Kennedy opened the scoring at 1:12 of the game then assisted on line-mate Lynn's goal on the next face-off putting the Leafs up 2–0 at less than 2 minutes into the game. Toronto went on to win the game 4–0. In game 3 Toronto had built a 3–0 lead by halfway through the second, but Montreal battled back to close the gap to 3–2. With Montreal pressing in the dying seconds of the game, Kennedy dug the puck out of a desperate scramble in front of the Toronto goalmouth, carried the puck up ice, then forcing goaltender Durnan to go down, he put the puck behind him to clinch the game. Toronto won game 4 in overtime 2–1 while the Canadiens won game 5 in Montreal 3–1. Kennedy's line came up with their best game of the series in game 6. Montreal had taken an early two-goal lead and appeared to be heading for a seventh game in Montreal. In the second period, Lynn tied the game with assists from Kennedy and Meeker. Then in the third with less than six minutes to go in the game Kennedy scored and Toronto held on to win the Stanley Cup.

Kennedy was voted the star in two of Toronto's wins in Montreal, scoring the winning goal in both, and was described as the most determined player in the playoffs. He still holds the NHL all-time record as the youngest player to score a Stanley Cup winning goal. Kennedy finished the playoffs leading the Leafs in points and was second overall. However, despite winning the Stanley Cup the Toronto Maple Leafs did not place a single player on either the first or second All-Star teams.

"Strongest team ever"
The 1947–48 season brought Max Bentley to Toronto from Chicago in what has been called the biggest trade in NHL history as the Leafs gave up five regular players for the league's scoring leader. Evincing the depth of the team at centre, Bentley played on the team's third line, behind Apps and Kennedy. Decades later, Hap Day argued that this team was the strongest NHL team ever and The Globe and Mail reporter Dick Beddoes also stirred up controversy by saying Wayne Gretzky would have been relegated to the fourth line on this Leaf team.

The Leafs finished in first place at the end of the regular season. Kennedy had finished the regular season third in points on the team behind the other two star centres Apps and Bentley, but it was Kennedy who was to dominate the playoffs. In the first round Toronto played Boston and eliminated the Bruins in five games. Kennedy set up the tying goal which led to an overtime win in game 1 and scored four times in the second game. But it was in the fifth and deciding for which he received greatest praise for his fore-checking tenacity and clutch goalscoring. First, with Toronto down 2–1 and the Bruins having the better of the play, he out-fought two Boston players for possession to get the puck to Bentley who in turn set up Lynn for the tying goal. Then later, Kennedy was carrying the puck into the Boston end. He passed to Meeker, who returned the pass, Kennedy faked once, moved in front of the net, forced goaltender Brimseck to go down, then lifted the puck over him. In the Cup Finals, Toronto swept Montreal in four straight games to win the Stanley Cup. Kennedy scored twice in the Cup-winning game and finished leading all players in the playoffs in points with eight goals and five assists and he was also not given a single penalty in the entire playoffs. His checking and work in the corners has been credited as critical to the victory.

On the afternoon of Thursday, April 16, 1948, the Leaf players were greeted by thousands of Toronto fans as they got off the train from Detroit. They then rode open cars through a cascade of multi-coloured paper and ticket tape through Toronto's business district to arrive at a civic reception at City Hall. Speaking to the huge crowd, Conn Smythe announced that Kennedy was succeeding Syl Apps as captain who was retiring.

In the off-season, on Saturday, June 12, 1948, Kennedy married Doreen Dent of Toronto in Knox College Chapel in Toronto.

The Leafs struggled early in the 1948–49 season having lost Apps and Nick Metz to retirement, and then Kennedy for a month and Cal Gardner for two months due to injuries. By the end of January, Toronto was only one point ahead of the last place New York Rangers who had even played two fewer games than Toronto. Kennedy's return to the team in mid-January provided the needed spark to pull the Leafs out of their prolonged slump. Although finishing the regular season with a losing record of 23 wins 25 losses and 12 ties, they were able to place fourth, which was the last position qualifying for the playoffs. However, in the first round of the playoffs they defeated Boston in five games. Kennedy had scored the game-winning goal which put Toronto up 3–0 in games. Toronto then faced the first-place Detroit Red Wings. During the season, Detroit General Manager Jack Adams said of the Red Wings, "This is the greatest team in my 22 seasons here." However, Toronto swept the Red Wings in four straight games to win their third consecutive Stanley Cup. Kennedy finished the playoffs with two goals and six assists to lead the Leafs in points and was second only to Detroit's Gordie Howe overall.

This was the first time a National Hockey League team had won three Cups in a row and had not been accomplished since the Ottawa Silver Seven in the pre-NHL era, 44 years before. The Leafs had also won nine consecutive Stanley Cup Finals games dating back to April 19, 1947 (initial cup won on this date, with the following two wins being finals sweeps). This Toronto Maple Leafs team is distinguished as the first dynasty in the history of the NHL.

The Gordie Howe incident
At the beginning of the 1949–50, Conn Smythe liked the Leafs' chances for continued success, saying, "We'll be hard to keep away from a fourth Stanley Cup," but as the season progressed many hockey people felt Detroit would end the Leafs' Stanley Cup streak. By the end of the season, Toronto had finished in third and Kennedy finished second on the Leafs in points.

The 1950 playoffs were overshadowed by an on-ice mishap in the opening game between Toronto and Detroit, in which the Red Wings' young star player, Gordie Howe, was seriously injured. Late in the game with Toronto leading 4–0, Kennedy stole the puck from Detroit defenceman Jack Stewart and was carrying it down the left wing about six feet from the boards into the Detroit end of the rink. Stewart was pursuing him from behind and Howe was coming in fast from the side to try to cut him off. Kennedy saw Howe coming at the last moment, and was able to dodge Howe's check while passing the puck to Sid Smith, but Howe could not stop and crashed head-first into the boards, with Stewart falling on top of him. Howe sustained a concussion, facial fractures, and a lacerated right eyeball, and doctors had to perform emergency procedures on him at the hospital to save his life. Detroit coach Tommy Ivan and general manager Jack Adams accused Kennedy of deliberately butt-ending Howe. Kennedy had not been assessed a penalty on the play. After the game Kennedy said, "I don't know how he got it. I avoided his check along the boards and didn't feel anything hit me, although he may have struck my stick."

NHL President Clarence Campbell was at the game and was seated near where the incident occurred. After receiving a report from the game's officials, Campbell called a news conference and said the injury was not Kennedy's fault. Campbell also publicly rebuked Ivan for his accusation, saying, "That is a pretty serious business and a very vicious charge." It was also argued that since Kennedy was a right-handed shot, the butt-end of his stick was towards the boards and away from Howe. Sportswriter Ted Reeve of the Toronto Telegram quipped, "How would a right-handed stickhandler going down the left boards give anyone a butt end? Unless he wanted to lift the snappers out of someone in the rail seats." Howe was lost from the playoffs, but the incident influenced the momentum of the series. Detroit won the second game of the series 3–1, a violent and fight-filled affair which included a stick-swinging incident between the Leafs' Jimmy Thomson and Detroit's Leo Reise and a fight between Kennedy and Ted Lindsay. After the game, Campbell threatened the players with fines if the violent play continued, and both teams continued to play hockey for the remainder of the series. However, Detroit was now determined to "win the series for Gordie" and defeated the Leafs in seven strongly-contested games to eliminate them from the playoffs, going on to win the Stanley Cup.

In recovery from his hospital bed, Howe said, "Ted is too good a player to deliberately injure another player." Then, years later, while still believing that he had been hit by Kennedy's stick, Howe reiterated that there was no intent to injure on Kennedy's part and considered his injuries self-inflicted. However, the incident still continues at times to be described as a deliberate act by Kennedy. In 2001, The Sporting News ran an article on the 30 toughest players in the NHL. In referring to Howe's injury, the incident was described "he was knocked heavily into the boards by Toronto's Teeder Kennedy".

The Final Cup
Except for being left with a lifelong facial tick, Howe made a full recovery and for the 1950–51 season as he finished the season leading the league in points. The Maple Leafs finished in second place behind Detroit. Kennedy finished second on the team in points behind Bentley and tied with Howe for the league lead in assists with 43. In the first round of the playoffs Montreal upset Detroit and Toronto defeated Boston.

The Stanley Cup Finals between Montreal and Toronto went five games, but is remarkable as each game required overtime to be decided. In the third game, with the series tied at one game a piece, Kennedy both saved the game for the Leafs and won it. First, he prevented a goal by clearing a puck that was heading into the Toronto net, then, just fifty seconds later at the other end of the rink, he intercepted a clear-out pass from Montreal's Calum MacKay and scored to win the game. The fourth game was won by Toronto to lead the series 3–1.

It was in the next game of the series which Leaf defenceman Bill Barilko scored one of the most famous goals in NHL history with a goal in overtime to win the Stanley Cup. However, without Kennedy's face-off skills Barilko's goal would not have occurred. Montreal had been leading late in the game 2–1 and it appeared that the teams were headed to a sixth game in Montreal. With just 39 seconds remaining, Toronto was able to get a faceoff in the Montreal end. Toronto coach Joe Primeau had pulled the goaltender so they could have six skaters. Primeau had the option of changing his players, but decided to leave Kennedy out to take the faceoff against Canadien Billy Reay. Kennedy's plan on the faceoff was to get the puck to Max Bentley, who was stationed at the point. Then Montreal coach Dick Irvin decided to switch and have his best forwards, the Punch Line, out for this critical faceoff. Kennedy faced Lach instead. Kennedy later recalled he was relieved at the switch as he had trouble with Reay on faceoffs, but when Lach came out he felt "I had a chance," Kennedy won the faceoff from Lach, got the puck to Bentley and from the ensuing scramble around the net Tod Sloan tied the game. The goal dispirited the Montreal team and led to Barilko's famed overtime goal which won another Stanley Cup for the Leafs.

Following the 1951 cup, Kennedy said that without the Howe incident of the previous season, "we probably would have been the first team to win 5 in a row."

Latter years
1950–51 season was Kennedy's last Stanley Cup. In the years following until Kennedy's retirement in 1957 the Leafs either finished out of the playoffs or lost in the first round. However, Kennedy continued to play productive hockey. The Leafs never missed the playoffs in the years Kennedy played a full season.

On October 13, 1951, the Leafs and the Chicago Black Hawks played an afternoon exhibition of hockey, prior to their regularly scheduled evening game, for Princess Elizabeth, the future Queen Elizabeth II, during her visit to Canada. It was captain Teeder Kennedy, representing the players, who greeted the Princess at the game. Kennedy said it was a thrilling moment and recalled thinking at the time, "Here's a kid from the little village of Humberstone, Ontario being presented to the Queen." The 1951–52 season was dominated by Gordie Howe and the Red Wings as they finished the regular season in first and then swept third place Toronto in the first round of the playoffs and Montreal in second round without losing a single game.

In a game in Boston in January of the 1952–53 season Kennedy suffered a separated shoulder in a scuffle with Milt Schmidt of the Bruins and underwent surgery. Originally thought lost for the season, Kennedy trained hard and was able to return to the Leafs in mid-March. However, Toronto still finished out of a playoff position. Despite missing more than two months of the schedule Kennedy still finished second in points on the team. For his efforts Kennedy received the J. P. Bickell Memorial Trophy which is awarded by the Maple Leaf Gardens board of directors as the player most valuable to the Leafs.

For the 1953–54 season, Kennedy finished tied for second on the team in points and was elected to the NHL's 2nd All-Star team. The Leafs finished in 3rd place and were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs by Detroit in five games. At the end of the season, Kennedy announced his intentions to retire. Conn Smythe told reporters he had tendered Kennedy "the highest offer ever made a hockey player". This was a raise above his $25,000 yearly salary (approximately $ in dollars) according to a contemporary newspaper report. However, Smythe said that Kennedy had told him that lately he felt "he hadn't produced in proportion to what he's been paid." Smythe insisted the Leafs needed Kennedy as Toronto was a young team.

Smythe was able to talk Kennedy into playing the 1954–55 season. At the conclusion of the season, he won the Hart Memorial Trophy, for most valuable player, and would be the last Maple Leaf to win the award until Auston Matthews in 2022. To this point Kennedy had had an impressive career. He had played on five Stanley Cup teams, something no other NHL player had achieved at the time. Toronto had only missed the playoffs twice during his eleven years, one of which Kennedy was injured. By age 22 he had won three Stanley Cups and was the youngest player to have scored 100 goals. Yet, Kennedy had never won an award, nor been elected to a first All-Star team. Although he did finish third in the league in assists, awarding Kennedy the Hart was considered as much as an acknowledgement of his career as his performance in the season. Kennedy along with first ever Hart recipient Frank Nighbor, are the only forwards to have won the award without finishing in the top ten in league scoring. After the Leafs were swept in four straight games in the playoffs by the Detroit Red Wings, Kennedy announced his retirement. For the second time, Kennedy was awarded with the J. P. Bickell Memorial Trophy as most valuable Toronto Maple Leaf.

After missing the entire 1955–56 season, he came out of retirement to play half of the 1956–57 season to help the Leafs who were short on players due to injuries and were struggling to make the playoffs. Kennedy returned November 27 to train himself back into shape after the Leafs had won only one game in their last 11. He scored 22 points in 30 games, but the Leafs finished out of the playoffs. He shared the captaincy with Jim Thomson. A highlight of the season was March 16, 1957, when the Maple Leafs scored 14 goals against the New York Rangers and Kennedy got four assists in what is still the Leafs' all-time record for goals in a single game. When it became clear the team was not going to make the playoffs, he sat out the last two games so the management could have a look at a young Frank Mahovlich. Kennedy said, "It was time for a new generation to lead the team." Mahovlich had practised with Kennedy the previous day and, in expressing regret at never having played in a game with Kennedy said, "Teeder Kennedy's last practice was my first."

During Detroit Red Wing Ted Lindsay's attempts to form a players' union in the 1950s, he was approaching selected leaders among the other five NHL teams. Although Kennedy was the lone holdout, which greatly disappointed Lindsay, he still respected Kennedy for not informing Conn Smythe about being approached. "I won't squeal", Kennedy told him. According to Glenn Hall, Conn Smythe "ostracized" his captain when he discovered Kennedy had not told him about Lindsay's endeavours. There was speculation that this led to Kennedy failing to land a job with the Leafs after retirement.

Retirement
Kennedy continued for a short time after retirement as a salesman with Canadian Building Materials, with whom he had worked for during his hockey career in the off-season, but soon left the company. In 1957–58, he was the second coach of the Peterborough Petes OHA "Junior A" team before being succeeded by Scotty Bowman. After a successful season coaching Peterborough, Kennedy reportedly turned down an offer to coach the Toronto Maple Leafs prior to their signing of Punch Imlach.

He returned to Port Colborne to raise thoroughbred horses, which was an occupation he had been involved during his hockey career. Kennedy owned the Faraway Hills Farm and the St. Marys Thoroughbred Training Centre in Ontario which included a quarter-mile indoor track. His horse, On Board, won the grand championship for stallions three times at the Canadian National Exhibition and at the Royal Winter Fair.

In 1966 Ted Kennedy was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. In 1975, an arena in Port Colborne, the Teeder Kennedy Youth Arena, was named in his honour.

Kennedy was a steward with the Ontario Racing Commission from 1977 to 1985. In June 1979, Kennedy was one of three stewards who scratched Come Lucky Chance from the $100,000 Canadian Oaks after the horse had thrown its rider prior to the race. Infuriated by the ruling was the horse's owner, 84-year-old Conn Smythe. Although, Smythe was quoted as saying, "I'll raise hell with only two of the stewards." In July 1984, Kennedy was one of the stewards for the Queen's Plate, who ruled against an appeal by Larry Attard riding Let's Go Blue that he was interfered with by the winning horse Key To The Moon. Kennedy was then head of security at Fort Erie Racetrack.

In 1987, Kennedy appeared along with Leaf defenceman of the 1970s, Jim McKenny, in an educational video for the Ontario Government on the dangers to athletes of drug and alcohol abuse. Kennedy, an abstainer, said he was always considered "one of the boys" on the team even through he did not drink. Kennedy's stellar career contrasted with McKenny, considered along with Bobby Orr as the best prospects in junior, had his career negatively impacted by alcoholism.

During his retirement, Kennedy also participated in Old-Timers hockey for charity benefits. He was also an avid golfer, scoring a 215-yard hole in one in 1981 at Scarboro Golf and Country Club.

On October 3, 1993, Kennedy, along with Syl Apps, were honoured in a pre-game ceremony by having banners raised at Maple Leaf Gardens.

In 1995, it was reported Kennedy had again returned to live in the hometown of his youth Port Colborne. In 1999, Kennedy underwent hip replacement surgery.

Ted Kennedy was inducted into the Ontario Sports Hall of Fame in 1999.

Ted Kennedy died on August 14, 2009, in a Port Colborne nursing home, at the age of 83, of congestive heart failure. He is survived by his wife Doreen, son Mark, two grandchildren and two great-grandchildren.

Following the announcement of Kennedy's passing, many fans and papers published tributes, while former NHL players paid their respects. Jean Béliveau, a former member of the rival Montreal Canadiens, expressed sadness upon the news, stating "I was certainly happy to play against him, and I'm so sorry to hear (of his death)". He added, "He was a complete centreman, a good playmaker, a good passer, good on faceoffs." Brian Burke, the Leafs' general manager at the time of Kennedy's passing, issued a statement, reading "He truly was a man of great class and he was one of the most accomplished leaders in our team's long history." NHL commissioner Gary Bettman also issued a statement mourning Kennedy's loss.

The quintessential Leaf
Ted Kennedy never played for another team, never wanted to, and captained the Toronto Maple Leafs during its greatest era. He has been called the quintessential Maple Leaf. However, Kennedy was never voted to the first All-Star team. Frank Selke explained Kennedy "never made the first All-Star team because he lacked one thing – colour. He's been unlucky that way." On another occasion Selke had said, "Many times men were named who were not his equal in all-round effectiveness." Despite Kennedy's sparse acquisition of individual awards, many sportswriters consider Kennedy as possibly the greatest player to have played for the Toronto Maple Leafs. In the book The Maple Leafs Top 100 Kennedy is ranked second only to Dave Keon as the best Toronto Maple Leaf of all time. While The Hockey News ranked Kennedy at only #57 on their list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players, in 2009 The Edmonton Journal published a list of top 50 NHL players of All-Time and Ted Kennedy finished at #10, ahead of all other Maple Leafs and such players as Howie Morenz and Patrick Roy. The list, with the intention of minimizing subjectivity, was compiled using voting for the Hart and Smythe trophies for most valuable player during the regular season and playoffs respectively. When the list was adjusted to account for the fact that goalies and defensemen are traditionally overlooked for the Hart, Kennedy's ranking even improved to #8.

Playoff performer
Kennedy had the reputation for excelling in the playoffs. He was the first player in NHL history to win five Stanley Cups and by just age 22 he had already won three Stanley Cups. Kennedy holds the Toronto Maple Leafs' all-time record for career points in Stanley Cup Finals with 23. He is the youngest player in the history of the NHL to have scored a Stanley Cup winning goal when he scored the winning goal of game 6 in 1947 at 21.4 years of age. Until the Pittsburgh Penguins won the Stanley Cup in 2009, with 22-year-old Sidney Crosby as captain, Kennedy shared the honours with Wayne Gretzky as the youngest captains to have won the Cup. In 2001 The Hockey News assembled a panel of five hockey experts to choose the winners of a "would-be" Conn Smythe Trophy, for best playoff performance, had the trophy been awarded prior to the 1964–65 season. Using microfilms of newspapers of the day and studying statistics and quotes from writers and coaches they chose winners from 1917–18 to 1963–64. Only Kennedy was chosen as many as three times for his playoff performances in 1945, 1947 and 1948. He is fourth all-time in playoff goals and sixth all-time in points for the Maple Leafs

Face-off skills

His face-off skills were highly regarded and it was considered invaluable. The April 27, 1998, issue of Sport Illustrated published "The Best Ever on the Draw", a poll of NHL experts of the top ten players of all time for skills on the faceoff, and Kennedy was ranked at #1. Lloyd Percival once called Kennedy the "Billy the Kid" of hockey. Derek Sanderson, considered the best at faceoffs in the late 60s and 70s, related how his father had him watch Kennedy on the TV to learn the skill. In a 1987 interview Kennedy told a reporter, "I went all-out at face-offs. Your centre is your quarterback and our other guys knew exactly what I was trying to do." In the 1970s, GM of the Leafs, Jim Gregory asked Kennedy if he would help the team to improve their face-off performance. Kennedy agreed but with one stipulation. "This can't involve (just) the centermen. It has to involve all five guys," Kennedy told Gregory and coach Roger Neilson. "Everyone has to be in tune. Everybody has a job to do. This is a team."

Regular season and playoffs
Sources: Total Hockey hockey-reference.com

title: Ted Kennedy (ice hockey)


text:
Oakland Mills, Columbia, Maryland

Oakland Mills is one of the 10 villages in Columbia, Maryland, United States. It is located immediately east of Town Center, across U.S. Route 29.

Neighborhoods in the village of Oakland Mills include Steven's Forest, Talbott Springs, and Thunder Hill.

History
The name Oakland Mills is derived from the mill and postal station in the local area that were part of a 2,300 acre estate that combined Oakland Manor slave plantation and surrounding properties. The 1796 grist mill and its properties are aligned along the road built by the Columbia Turnpike and Road Company between Montgomery County and Baltimore in 1810. The road was managed by the Columbia Turnpike Company and later came to be known as the Columbia Pike, Old Columbia Road, and now U.S. Route 29. The Oakland Mills Blacksmith House and Shop was built around 1820. A sawmill, coopers shop and country store was built on a 16 acre site prior to 1824. The Oakland Mills postal station opened on February 23, 1821, in the Howard district of Anne Arundel County. It operated until 1909, and the name was used again in 1974 when the land development company Rouse picked the name for one of its villages. The grist mill at Oakland Mills was built by Robert Oliver in 1826 on the site with the sawmill. On May 13, 1858, a tornado passed through the Oakland Mills town from Woodstock, Maryland, taking out large swaths of trees.

In 1969, the Rouse Company started land development, choosing Oakland Mills for the name of one of its "villages" to the east of the historic Oakland Mills site. The village was considered officially open on November 11, 1969, with the opening of the village center. Homebuilders from Amberly, Artery Leighton, Green, Page, and Ryland built model homes in the Stevens Forrest neighborhood with a random mix of architectural styles including Modern, Contemporary, Farm, and California style. In 1971, arsonists burned as many as ten new homes under construction, prompting residents to form community watches.

In 1987, the State of Maryland and Howard County approved a road widening which affected historic buildings at the Oakland Mills site. In 2011, the Blacksmith House was added to the National Register of Historic Places. The same year, the Maryland State Highway Administration commissioned a Maryland Historical Trust survey to include adjoining mill buildings declaring the site not eligible for state historical status because they "no longer effectively reflect their historic design or association with the historic mill site". County executive Ken Ulman broke ground at the project May 28, 2014, in front of the Mill Buildings announcing, "It means we can be more productive in our careers. It means we can get to our kids' practices and games on time. It means more quality time for families."

The bridge
A concrete footbridge was built over Route 29 in 1982 to connect Oakland Mills to the neighboring Columbia Town Center. In 2005, the county held a charrette to discuss redevelopment of the Rouse Planned Community beyond its initial 100,000 population design requiring the developer to conduct a study on the benefits of the footbridge. In 2010, The Downtown Columbia Plan passed, requiring the developer to fund a replacement footbridge as a condition before additional development could occur in Columbia. In 2010, The Rouse Company conducted a study, stating that there was little transportation benefit to the bridge. County Executive Ken Ulman proposed an unexpected $600,000 in county funds in the 2012 budget to relieve the developer of the bridge building expense and development restriction. In 2013, Howard County spent $100,000 to conduct its own study. In 2018, the bridge was renovated, with a new spiraling geometrical design, upgraded lighting, and safety enhancements.

Names
Steven's Forest is named for the 702 acre original land grant patented to Charles Stevens on May 10, 1709. The tract was resurveyed on August 4, 1746, by Phillip Hammond. The tract was only 90 acres by 1783 when owned by Brice Hammond. In 1787, Major General of the 1st division of the Maryland State Infantry Charles Sterrett Ridgely, combined "Browns Adventure", "Chew's Angle", "Stevens Forest" and "Cost upon Cost" to form a 1696 acre tract for the Oakland Manor slave plantation.

Streets in Steven's Forest are named for works of John Dos Passos, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Ernest Hemingway.

Talbott Springs comes from the name of the 1087 acre land grant, Talbott's Resolution Manor, patented on August 30, 1714, by John and Elizabeth Talbot, reduced to 249 acres in 1783 by Rachel Ridgley. Street names are taken from the works of Carl Sandburg, and Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Thunder Hill derives from the name of the area farm of landowner Oliver Goldsmith who sold property to Rouse. The street names are from Andrew Wyeth. The street "Coonhunt Court" generated some controversy, without a direct reference to Wyeth's works; efforts to change the name started in 1969.

Services
Oakland Mills Village Center contains an LA Mart ethnic grocery store and other smaller retail establishments including a Dunkin'. "The Meeting House," located at the village center, is an interfaith center.

The community center is in The Other Barn, which was built in 1947 to service 50 cattle by Dorsey Owings, once part of the Owings Dorsey Dairy Farm. It was repurposed by the Rouse company in 1969 as a community center and a teen center named the Orange Propeller.

Each neighborhood has an outdoor pool.

The Columbia Ice Rink and the Youth and Teen Center are also part of the Oakland Mills Village Center complex, administered by the Columbia Association.

Leadership
The Oakland Mills Community Association serves as the homeowner's association and village board of directors for Oakland Mills. Members of the village board serve one year terms and are elected annually. The board has up to seven members and includes the Oakland Mills representative to the Columbia Council as an ex-officio member. A Village Manager oversees day-to-day operations of the community association.

Current village board membership:

 * Jonathan Edelson – Chairperson
 * William McCormack, Jr. – Vice Chairperson
 * Jerome Rollerson – acting Architecture Chairperson
 * Rebecca Bryant
 * Warren Wortman
 * Virginia Thomas – Columbia Council Representative

Education
Oakland Mills High School is located in the village; students from Oakland Mills and neighboring communities attend. There are three elementary schools, Stevens Forest Elementary School, Thunder Hill Elementary School, and Talbott Springs Elementary School, and one middle school, Oakland Mills Middle School, within the village. Both Stevens Forest Elementary School and Talbott Springs Elementary School have been recognized as National PTA Schools of Excellence.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Oakland Mills, Columbia, Maryland


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Railway missing links

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was merge (to somewhere I don't know) or keep. ugen 64 20:15, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Railway missing links
Just copy of a press release from the UN, with wikilinks to some people involed, would be better situated at Wikinews as Wikipedia is not a news site. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 03:05, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think it cites the UN, but comes from a news agency. Smells like copyvio, if anything, but I'm not an expert on the status. I'm trying to think of somewhere where this relevant info can be merged, rail transport in Africa (following the convention of Rail transport in Australia and similar articles), perhaps? In any case, no need to redirect as this name is useless. --Dmcdevit 04:12, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
User:Bellacio

bella cio!

title: User:Bellacio


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Can't Sleep, Clowns Will Eat Me

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete and make redirect. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 05:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Can't Sleep, Clowns Will Eat Me
Source material. Probable copyvio. Delete. --cesarb 03:05, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Bart Simpson. (Wow, this is an actual song?) android↔talk 03:20, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe Alice Cooper got the idea from the Simpsons episode. It's been explained on WP:UA. Delete as a copyvio.   — J I P | Talk 04:45, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Can't sleep, clown'll eat me which already mentions the Alice Cooper song. Jonathunder 05:02, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
 * Delete, copyright violation, cruft. Megan1967 10:59, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete copyrighted lyrics, and re-create as Redirect to Can't sleep, clown'll eat me, just like the other variously punctuated and capitalized versions of this phrase. Uncle G 14:08, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
 * Redirect as above. Dsmdgold 22:35, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect as above. --Carnildo 22:42, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Redirect as above. Zechenia
 * Delete --Spinboy 19:21, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect as above. Postdlf 21:13, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete as Wikipedic shortcut to external song lyrics. --SuperDude 04:40, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
User talk:Tanton~enwiki

Hey. Glad to have you on Wikipedia, but Michael Tanton -- as much as I'm sure you love him -- is non-notable. If he's you, please place what information you want people to see on User:Tanton instead of the main article space. Thanks and...

Welcome!

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The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Tanton. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Tanton~enwiki that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name. If you think you might own all of the accounts with this name and this message is in error, please visit Special:MergeAccount to check and attach all of your accounts to prevent them from being renamed.

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Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 19:30, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tanton~enwiki


text:
Talk:Hotline Communications

Article merged: See old talk-page here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.72.198 (talk) 23:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

It is questionable/debatable whether this article is appropriate for inclusion in Wikipedia. The article merely describes one of the numerous not-particularly-significant unsustainable companies that briefly existed during the .com boom/bust period that occurred a decade ago, before going bankrupt.

The article is not too badly written, but Wikipedia is not a catalog of failed business ventures, and should not describe all of the dead .com boom/bust companies. Only companies with significant societal impact should be included. The article is mostly only of sentimental/nostalgic/emotional interest to the small group of ex-employees of the company, and to a few diehard fans. It is not really of interest or significance to the general public, and not of any particular historical value.

The article lacks citations and is therefore mostly personal opinion (not appropriate for an encyclopedia). It is difficult to justify a claim that this ephemeral company was sufficiently noteworthy/significant to warrant having a permanent article in a general encyclopedia.

 * Hotline at its peak was [i]extremely[/i] popular, had millions of downloads, and played a significant role in P2P history. The characterization of this as some small company that did nothing and fizzled is completely inaccurate. Torc2 21:57, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Besides that, I think the fact that the Hotline community is in fact still active is reason enough to have this article in Wikipedia. --89.6.201.226 (talk) 17:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

David Pogue, in some article for MacWorld, alluded to being introduced to Hotline by some 11-year-old kid. His article raved about social connectedness and whatnot. At the end, however, he made an ironic comment about seeing his new book as one of the popular downloadables. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.123.95 (talk) 07:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

"In September 2001, Hotline Communications announced development of version 2.0 of the Hotline suite had been stopped, beta versions of which had not been well received by the community, and laid off most of its employees. In mid-October of the same year, the company announced the re-hire of their engineering team "in anticipation of the release of Hotline 2.0" on their website (http://www.bigredh.com/ - offline as of April 2005). However, no stable build of Hotline 2.0 was ever released."

Note that this is what happened according to the press releases. Hotline laid off all of its staff, with the exception of a few executives left to clean up the intellectual property and business affairs of the company in preparation for sale. The rehire of the engineering team consisted of three or four members of the former team.

I'm just not sure how to word this to be non-biased.

As to the first point on the relevance of having a Wikipedia page about Hotline, I think it's worth keeping. It could be argued that Hotline was an important predecessor to AOL Instant Messenger, and, later, social networking sites, as Hotline provided a sense of community and allowed chat and bulletin board postings, and allowed users to share in their interests with friends.

216.175.100.80 05:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC) David

Did Hotline win a Macworld [magazine] "Best of Show" Award, or was it a Macworld Expo "Best of Show" award from the Boston Mac Users Group? (Or both?). In any case, Hotline did win Macworld Sweden's [magazine] Golden Mouse Award —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.235.192.87 (talk) 08:10, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

BNET.cc?
"Various versions of hotline can be found on-line, and are freely downloadable at BNET.cc"

This statement appears to be no longer accurate. Please provide updated info about where one can download Hotline clients. 64.178.125.46 (talk) 05:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

 * A current source for the Hotline software is http://preterhuman.net/gethotlinekdx.php 24.67.80.228 (talk) 19:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

 * That source only lists a very old version of the hotline client. http://www.nailbat.com/content/view/14/32/ lists newer versions, although it does not list the various ports. 71.207.62.100 (talk) 06:27, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Potential sources
Here are some potential sources for this article, found as part of the deletion discussion (which closed as "keep"):

And another one found while looking around: "Hotline sees network plan as its path to profit", The Globe and Mail, 2001. Dreamyshade (talk) 11:21, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Salon.com: "Hotline to the underground" and "Hotline's civil war", 1999
 * MacWorld: "Hotline revisited", 2013
 * In Maximum PC, 2000
 * FileShareFreak: "Hotline - a P2P Pioneer Still Lives On", 2008
 * Lists of press highlights (potential leads for more references): AngelList and DocsHut. One from there: "Napster Leads, but What Follows Works", LA Times, 2001.
 * Wired: "Street Cred: Hot Connection" (1997), "Hotline Reinvents the BBS" (1998), "Still Plenty of Music Out There" (2001)
 * In "Exploring the Internet as a medium for research: web-based questionnaires and online sychronous interviews"
 * In Maximum Security, 2003
 * In Australian Intellectual Property Law
 * In McCallum's Top Workplace Relations Cases

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title: Talk:Hotline Communications


text:
User talk:Musser

Whee! I'm the first to welcome you. I saw your comments on Talk: The Rolling Stones Lemme paste this template right here...

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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Hope to see you around!

Shiri — Talk 03:06, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks a lot! Let me post a little about myself.Musser

 * That's great, but you can put that on your specified user page (User: Musser). Just cut and paste that stuff down there and save it on that page. Shiri — Talk 03:26, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I'll get it figured out soon. :) Musser

Reverts
Ah! I see we were both reverting Tides of Blood at the same time. I was one version older than you - but I don't mean to suggest that it was better! Musser 19:52, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * No worries, I had no opinion one way or the other about the edit you reverted and I didn't. And better to have too many of us cleaning up vandalism than none of us!  -- Coneslayer 19:58, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)

Minuteman Bikeway
It was nice to take a break from reverting vandalism and do a little positive editing! I see you're new around here; welcome, and many happy edits. FreplySpang (talk) 22:33, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Zap, North Dakota
Hey, I don't want you and that anon to get in an edit war over that town. Even if you are (understandably) suspicious of an anon, it's best to assume good faith before reverting a page. It would have been better to ask him on his user talk if you were unsure about the validity of his claim. ^_^ See you around, Shiri — Talk 02:26, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * I know, I was going to move that diatribe to your talk but I didn't know if you would mind or not. I'm glad I didn't offend you by trying to steer you in the right direction. Last time I did that (I asked someone to add image copyright tags), I was called "brusque." Great job on Zap, and even better job fighting vandalism. By the way, you may be dragged into these sorts of fights periodically when you edit Wikipedia (there's always people trying to push an agenda, etc.), so don't be discouraged. ;) Shiri — Talk 01:27, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC) Oh, and I wouldn't have really promoted the good faith thing if I knew that he was repeatedly copy-pasting from the web site. Still, it's always better to discuss things with users, even if their behavior is less than rational. Shiri —  Talk 01:36, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Visitor Comment
Visitor comment:  Hmmm, I am curious as to whether you own the Wikipedia website or are just a self-appointed censor. The article on Zap, North Dakota you "edited" actually deleted everything other than the link to the town's website which mentioned what was probably the key event in the town's history. What are we to make of this?

Is is not noteworthy if you do not deem it to be so?

If there is a spelling or grammatical error, no matter how minor, you have the right to determine it is incomprehensible and can therefore be deleted? This wouldn't have been so funny had we not caught you in an error of your own-- right on this page.

If the information is available from some other source, you have the right to decide it can be deleted from Wikipedia? If we go by that standard, it is going to be a pretty narrow website.

Finally, if you can't determine user meaning or figure out who to contact for clarification, then you have the right to delete?

You might have tried the links right on the official city website and asked them to explain the meaning. (I can't help but wonder how many other people found the website understandable, but then I'm speaking from the viewpoint of an inferior ethnic minority who grew up in a small town.)  Of course, given you obvious superiority and command of the English language, you probably could not stoop to talking to inferior small townspeople in North Dakota for fear they might not be able to communicate on your level.

So what's the conclusion? Anyone wishing to add facts to Wikipedia should first contact you and get permission, making sure their spelling and grammar is perfect? Does it matter that you yourself violated this rule?

The people of Zap, North Dakota had much of their town severely damaged in a rock concert gone awry in 1969. Do you know what they did? The invited the revelers back for a 30 year reunion in 1999. That shows really class even if you want to nitpick about a minor error or two in grammar on their official city website.

How about showing at least a fraction of the class and restoring what you deleted, even if it is in a format you deem acceptable grammar?

The appeal of Winipedia is that anyone (yes, even we ignorant ethnic minorities from rural America) can add facts to the database. Just as you would not appreciate us deleting something about places or events about which you had first-hand knowledge, we do not appreciate you censoring material on our state and community.

And, no, we're not going come asking your permission to edit what is advertised as a website that anyone with additional knowledge can edit. Someday, you will have to get a life other than self-appointed Wikipedia censor. That is if you and others of your ilk do not kill off the useful features of the website first with your censorship of information and ideas.

The people of Zap, North Dakota are too classy and polite to tell you this, but since I've moved away and am familiar with the facist attitudes of those who look down on my people, you can expect a taste of your own medicine if you don't learn the difference between editing (grammar and spelling corrections are generally appreciated) and censorship (deletion or coloring of facts are not appreciated).

Response
I am amazed that someone (67.186.13.86 to be clear) who is lazy enough to cut and paste a sentence (twice) from the Town of Zap website which does not make any sense to someone unfamiliar with the Zip to Zap has the time and motivation to make eight edits to my user page, some of it blatant vandalism that users other than myself reverted. Adding "prostitute" to my list of former professions is a great way to make a point. You'll notice also, that the first sentence of this response is, to any reasonable reader, a run on sentence. Why? Because I would rather spend my time editing and writing actual articles than working on my user page.

The comment above clearly took a little bit of time to write. If even a quarter of that time and effort had been put into writing something coherent about the Zip to Zap then none of this exchange would be taking place.

For anyone reading this later, I'm going to post the sentence which I deleted twice from the Zap, North Dakota page. Please judge for yourself whether or not it makes any sense:'' ' On May 10, 1969, Zap had the only official riot in North Dakota where the National Guard was called in to disperse the crowd. It was called the "Zap In" and people from all over the United States "Zipped to Zap".' ''

In order to facilitate the ending of this issue, I've researched and written something about the Zip to Zap. Have a read and please, please, please... Add if you have something to add. Delete if I've made a mistake, or if it's just plain terrible!

Now let's get back to Wikipedia, everyone. This is not what I am here for. Musser 01:04, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Response to your response:

67.186.13.86 here. Since you have restored what you've previously destroyed, I accept your gesture and call a truce. At some point in the future I may edit your comments slightly, but I will not destroy or censor what you have written. Peace.

Mud
Well, I've found a source, although I don't think it's the one I actually used. That still leaves the question of what exactly it means, of course. Mark1 02:10, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Digital AMPS
The information I had was actually from a Rogers employee. When 800MHz TDMA equipment fails, they don't replace it, and the coverage has been shrinking ever since. Regular AMPS service, however, is still being maintained. Rogers eventually hopes to move all their customers over to GSM, and even shut down AMPS. They hope to at least start this by 2007ish. Snickerdo 21:48, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Aluminium sulfate
Thanks for your interest in the aluminium sulfate article. I myself am just going from memory here, but I am fairly sure that it has several different hydrates, so that both 16H2O and 18H2O are correct. I have reverted your change to the table for the time being, as it is quite possible that the rest of the data in the table (eg CAS number) refer to the 16H2O hydrate: I promise I will look into this, and in the meantime I have left a note on the talk page for other editors. Physchim62 08:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Montreal Trust Logo.jpg
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title: User talk:Musser


text:
Le Rêve du Diable

Le Rêve du Diable (The Devil's Dream) is a Canadian folk music group from Quebec. It is one of the oldest folk music bands in the province, and has been performing folk music for more than forty years.

History
The band was founded by Gervais Lessard and Claude Méthé in 1974. In recent years the band's members include Lessard and Claude "Le Clin" Morin. The band made their first, eponymous album in 1976. They have since then released eight albums, the latest in the fall of 2013.

In May 2012 Le Rêve du Diable received the Quebec Medal of the National Assembly.

A documentary film about Le Rêve du Diable was created by filmmaker Feber E. Coyote in 2013.

The band continues to perform and present workshops about traditional music at festivals.

Discography

 * 1976: Le Rêve du Diable
 * 1977: Rivière Jaune
 * 1979: Délires Et Des Reels
 * 1982: Auberge le Rêve du Diable
 * 1991: Avec Cholestérol
 * 1996: Résurrection
 * 2002: Sans tambour ni trompette
 * 2013: Avec tambour et trompette
 * 2016: Un choix d'enfer, les grands succès

Special guests

 * 2016: Chansons pour Hank (Feber E. Coyote, Productions Feber)

Filmography

 * 1975: "La veillée des veillées" (André Gladu, National film board of Canada)
 * 1982: "Crac!" (Frédéric Back, National film board of Canada)
 * 2014: "Le Rêve du Diable: avec tambour et trompette" (Feber E. Coyote, Productions Feber)

title: Le Rêve du Diable


text:
Edward Osóbka-Morawski

Edward Bolesław Osóbka-Morawski (5 October 1909 – 9 January 1997) was a Polish activist and politician in the Polish Socialist Party (PPS) before World War II, and after the Soviet takeover of Poland, Chairman of the Communist-dominated interim government, the Polish Committee of National Liberation (Polski Komitet Wyzwolenia Narodowego) formed in Lublin with Stalin's approval.

In October 1944, Osóbka-Morawski was given the role of Minister of Foreign Affairs and Agriculture. Several months later, in June 1945, he was appointed Prime Minister of the Provisional Government of National Unity (Tymczasowy Rząd Jedności Narodowej), in office until February 1947. Osóbka-Morawski believed the PPS should join with the other non-communist party in Poland, the Polish Peasant Party, to form a united front against the Communist Polish Workers' Party. However, another prominent socialist, Józef Cyrankiewicz argued that the PPS should support the communists while opposing the creation of a one-party state. The Communists, with Soviet support, played on this division and forced Osóbka-Morawski to resign in favour of Cyrankiewicz.

Osóbka-Morawski would make his peace with the Communists, and gradually became a Stalinist. Nonetheless, in 1949 he was dismissed from his new post as the Minister of Public Administration, for "deviationist" tendencies. He was readmitted to the Communist Party, now called the Polish United Workers' Party, during the Polish October revolution of 1956. He then worked as a party official throughout most of his life in the People's Republic of Poland prior to the Revolutions of 1989, and in 1990 failed in his attempt to recreate the old Polish Socialist Party. He died in Warsaw in 1997.

title: Edward Osóbka-Morawski


text: User talk:83.31.7.66

title: User talk:83.31.7.66


text:
Talk:Linear video editing

Re-titled
This page should be re-titled as  "Linear Video Editing" . When you search for "Video Editing" you arrive at disambiguation page that divides the topic between  "Non-Linear Editing"  and  "Electronic Video Editing" .

A) The true distinction is between  "Linear"  and  "Non-Linear"  video editing.

B) All video editing is electronic.

As a new user I do not yet have the power to make this change myself. I believe it would be considered a simple name change and not a major move. DWR 03:09, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with you on the name change. What I don't agree with is you saying you don't have the power to do the renaming ;). Just move it to the new title. This will leave a redirect under the old title, but that is very desirable. After that, you should check which pages link to the old title, and change it to the new one. I'd do this myself, but I don't have the time right now. If you don't want to, I will do it later this week. -- grm_wnr Esc  21:50, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * When I tried using the "Move" button the other day I got a warning message that said I had not been a registered user long enough to perform that function. Since I was sucessful today I guess I have now been registered long enough. I also went back through and fixed the links.DWR 03:43, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is my writeup worthy of a link?
I wrote up a Linear Editing Primer on my website and was wondering if someone thought it was worthy of a link. If so, feel free to add it (or tell me so). I don't think I should be the one making the decision, since I wrote it and it is my site. Thanks. --tonsofpcs (Talk) 05:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Article subject
This article seems to be more about the history of video tape editing than of linear editing itself. Maybe the current content could become a section or partially spun off to a new page while the bulk of the article could be restructured to explain the hows and whys of linear editing in a more current form, or a form unrelated to history (such as an overview of techniques that doesn't imply any technical advantages or disadvantages of different systems). --tonsofpcs (Talk) 20:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Linear video editing


text:
Talk:La Bolduc

Untitled
What was "in their regional dialect" supposed to mean? Quebecois is french.

There seems to be alot of Quebec Nationlist overtones in this article. The cultural rupture between French Canadiens did not happen until the quiet revolution. Québecois was not as identified until after that point.
 * Not sure what you're getting at here - but Gaspe has a very different dialect from much of the rest of Quebec. The rest of it is hard to address without more details on what you find objectionable. Wily D  20:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

GA nomination on hold
Please leave a note on my talk page when you're done with this stuff. Cheers, — Dihydrogen Monoxide  23:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Accessdate added. Changed Changed - the refs serve for the whole paragraph, I don't see a reason they need to be associated with one paragraph or another. All solo instances of "Mary" changed to "Bolduc" or "Mary Bolduc" (Bolduc may be ambiguous in contexts with the husband) This comes from ref [1] which I've moved to the end of the paragraph - whole paragraph was sourced from there. I don't see why not - that ref serves as the basis for the whole paragraph All refs now have accessdates It's on wiktionary, and now so linked
 * Ref 1 needs an accessdate. I also don't think you need to use it in the lead, as it's used many more times throughout the article
 * "Born in Newport, Quebec in the Gaspé, she was the daughter..." - Change "she" to "Bolduc", as this is the start of the section
 * In the first paragraph of the "Childhood" section, can the ref go at the end of the para instead of the end of the first sentence? Same with the second paragraph
 * "but Mary attended school for a time, becoming literate in French." - Mary --> Bolduc
 * "so Mary learned jigs and folk songs from memory or by ear" - Mary --> Bolduc
 * That happens a lot throughout the article - I won't point out every occurance...
 * "She was paid $15 per month, in addition to room and board. A few years later she took a job at a textile mill, which paid $15 weekly for 60 hours of work per week." - Ref/Source?
 * First paragraph of the "Musical career" section - can the ref go to the end of the para?
 * Ref 2 needs better date formatting and an accessdate (as do all the other refs)
 * "Bolduc earned a total of $450 from the sales and became a household name in Quebec." - I'm not sure if household name is worthy of an article, but there might be a wiktionary entry on it - check.
 * "Bolduc's first headlining performance came in November of 1930, in Lachute, Quebec at a costume ball." - Is the exact date known?
 * This appears in two references, both just use the month. But nobody specifies that it's unknown either.  I can't be sure. Brian Scarboro  14:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The whole thing was sourced from there (or at least, the source has all that info) so I moved it. "The sufferings of my accident", yeah (insofar as je parle seulment un petit peu de Francais). So there shouldn't, and now there ain't. The discography now cuts the WP:MUSTARD Removed Fixed Removed - extra refs are removed (truth be told, I did want to see what happened after "Z" in the reflist
 * "Bolduc was seriously injured in June of 1937..." - Can the ref in this paragraph be moved to its end? And are there any other sources for it...?
 * "One of those songs, Les Souffrances de mon accident was on her accident" - Can you translate this (I think it would translate to "Sufferings of my accident" or similar, but someone better at French than me can confirm)
 * "Her songs tended to be happy and comical with lively rhythms .[1]" - There shouldn't be a space before the full stop (.)
 * The titles of Bolduc's songs should be in "quotation marks", not in italics (per Music Standards)
 * "One technique often employed by Bolduc is the enumerative song, which lists something such as foods or tasks" - This isn't as descriptive as it maybe could be - can you give an example (some lyrics etc.)?
 * "Madame Bolduc's lyrics are predominantly French" - the "madame" isn't necessary - remove it
 * Interesting that the article is titled "La Bolduc" but it's never explained if she went by that name, why she did, how she got it, etc....?
 * "Recordings of about 100 of her songs survive[1]" - The ref should go on top of some punctuation - eg at the end of the sentence
 * You don't really need two sections both titled "Recordings" - just keep the L2 and make a list of recordings inside it (drop the L3 heading)
 * Ref 8 is way overused - you can just use it once at the top of the recordings list
 * Speaking of which, the list of recordings has stacks of line breaks that are not needed and should be removed

Reviewed version:

Good luck, — Dihydrogen Monoxide  23:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Passed. — Dihydrogen Monoxide  08:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

 * "…was a French Canadian singer and musician."

[edit] Childhood

 * "Bolduc and her eleven siblings spoke English at home, but also spoke French fluently."

Begging your pardon, but these two statements are at odds with each other. If her family was English-speaking, then she was not a French Canadian. I think "Canadian" will do. Kelisi (talk) 09:05, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Name
She performed under the name Bolduc, which was her legal name, so it seems more appropriate to me to start by giving her last name as Bolduc with an addition to show her last name at birth. If there is a good reason for using Travers (and I may have missed some policy change from not editing much for the last five years), then it would be better to add a note early on that Bolduc was her name after marriage and the name she was known by. John FitzGerald (talk)

 * The last name change makes sense to me. For what it's worth, listing her as Travers in the lede dates back to the article's creation in 2003. Wily D 16:07, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

 * I have also taken out an assertion I think I added about "Si Vous Avez une Fille" being her best-known recording today. I was never able to verify that. John FitzGerald (talk)

So many inappropriate red links
Whatever WP:REDLINK exactly says, the article is full of non helpful and distractive red links and the Cleanup Red Link tag is the closest tag to address this. Removing maintenance tags without fixing the issue constitutes vandalism. I say it again, a maintenance tag up top is a fair compromise and not doing any harm. That tag had been there since February, why does suddenly WilyD want it off. Slight Smile  14:24, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

 * What redlink do you believe is inapprorpriate, and why? The maintenance tag is only appropriate if there are any unsuitable redlinks in the article, which does not seem to be the case.  Since the maintenance tag appears to be totally inappropriate, it should be removed.  Wily D  08:55, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

 * Having stumbled upon this discussion, I'm inclined to agree with Slightsmile (mostly). On one hand, red links are supposed to encourage new articles, but on the other, there should be a limit where we expect and want to encourage writing new articles, thus some kind of editorial decision is called for. In this case, most red links are to songs written by Bolduc in 1920 s or of folk origin, unlikely to satisfy WP:N. Our song/album articles for most of less renowned performers are generally stubby and of low quality, and I doubt we expect those articles any time soon, so I'd vote for red link removal. Should anyone want to write these articles, he can always come back and re-link them. On the other hand, about half of red links (Mary Travers Park, Jean Grimaldi, Théâtre Arlequin de Québec) does look promising, so they should stay in. Of course, I'm not familiar with the topic, someone else should make that decision. In the meantime, edit-warring with cleanup tags is quite unhelpful. Make an agreement about which redlinks should stay, and stick to it, don't deface the reasonable article with ugly tags. No such user (talk) 10:59, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

 * NSU thanks for the voice of reason. I agree the tag isn't the prettiest but I still say is unreasonable to remove before the issue is fixed. I usually fix issues myself but once in a blue moon for various reasons I tag it. A user tried to remove some red links a few days ago and WilyD reverted. When I reverted WilyD on that, he started insisting on removing the maintenance tag. Why? Also WilyD, no I don't have to back words with action and create an article for each of those reds. And I'm not going to argue about each of the many red links. I think we're hitting a wall here and time for dispute resolution starting with 3O. Slight  Smile  15:34, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Inappropriate revert
I spent a considerable amount of time doing cleanup on this article related to redlinks and references. I've restored my edits since someone chose to remove my work, it looks like it was done manually to avoid revert guidelines regarding reverting good-faith actions of other editors. H:REV, WP:ROWN

Also added reference tag as the overwhelming majority of the articles citations rely on. David Condrey (talk) 22:39, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:La Bolduc


text:
Talk:Spanish alphabet

Missing letter
I thought that Ü was in the Spanish language. I looked in the dictionary and it has it in a few words, but not in a seperate letter heading. Explain please
 * Ü is not a letter, is U with ¨ (dieresis).
 * But I though LL and RR are not letters anymore!! should we remove them? --Mariano 08:35, 2005 Jun 8 (UTC)
 * LL may be officially no longer a single letter to make computer sorting easier, it is still considered a letter by Spanish speakers (e.g. calle is ce, a, elle, e) and I think it should stay. RR, however, has never officially been a single letter.

 * In addition, CH is traditionally separate, as is Ñ (I don't think anyone contests Ñ). Vowels with diacritics (Á, É, Í, Ó, Ú, Ü) have never been separate letters either.  — Chameleon 09:06, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * You seriously spell CALLE as C-A-LL-E ?? I say doble L, as I would say double O in DOOR. And why we keep letters the Real Academia Española does not consider letters anymore? Of course it should be stated somewhere, but not when enumerating the alphabet. Do you still say A B C CH D? We surely don't! I suggest we take the official version. -Mariano 14:04, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)

 * You say doble L? Wow, everyone here says elle.  Interesting.  Perhaps it varies by region.  Perhaps we could find out who says what, where.

 * Regarding the Real Academia, I think the article currently establishes a good balance between accepting their ruling on one hand and describing traditional and current usage on the other. I'm all for standardisation, but we have to admit that not many people really pay much attention to the Academy, and so we shouldn't pretend that the letters che and elle disappeared in reality the moment that they decreed it so.  — Chameleon 14:27, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * On another note, I'd like your opinion on the template I created: Template:Spanish. — Chameleon 14:28, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * There's a discrepancy of standards between the beginning of the article, and the Letter names section. In the later neither CH nor LL appear.
 * Ve baja? I think that sounds a bit Catalá. We say Be larga and Ve corta.
 * I've already seen your template. Fancy, I like it. Maybe you should consider changing the colours of the first Box in the Spanish language article, because that Green definitely does not go with your violet. -Mariano 15:14, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I'm colour-blind, so I don't see colours the same way as most people, but strangely I am often objectively correct.  I mean, my girlfriend says that my box is mauve or violet too.  I suppose that you'd agree with her that the photo of the keys is blue.  I think you're both wrong.  The box is rgb(88%, 88%, 98%), which means that there is almost the maximum amount of blue, and equal amounts of red and green.  So, it's blue.  The photo of the keys is more like rgb(67%, 79%, 96%), which makes it a bluish cyan.  I don't know whether this is a colour-perception thing or a computer-screen thing.  Maybe I should make the box cyan; it might go with the green.  — Chameleon 18:45, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

RR
Are you sure that RR has never officially been a single letter? The Balagtás alphabet (i.e., the alphabet used in the Philippines when it was a province of Spain) had RR as a separate letter. The Balagtás alphabet went: A B C Ch D E F G H I J K L Ll M N Ng Ñ Ñg O P Q R RR S T U V W X Y Z. --Boreanesia 29 June 2005 05:25 (UTC)
 * I've never seen anything in Spanish that would suggest that RR was a single letter. — Chameleon 29 June 2005 09:10 (UTC)

To the contrary, I have never seen anything to suggest that it's not. Every one of my Spanish teachers have counted it as one, even house who don't count ch and ll as letters any more.

My Spanish textbook lists RR as its own letter after RR. I was wondering why it wasnt even mentioned here.68.193.106.206 (talk) 00:16, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Alphabet of Spanish which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Spanish alphabet