text:
Talk:Eric Lindros

Lindros and Quebec
Please stop deleting the comments about how Eric Lindros is represented in Quebec. Lindros is a very polarizing figure in Canada and it is important that this be kept in mind in an encyclopedic entry about the man. The people on Wikipedia who delete the entry about Lindros's role as a prototypical White Protestant ghost in the minds of Quebeckers are themselves American and do not fully appreciate this nuanced but important aspect of the Canadian sociopolitical scene. This important point is not inaccurate on its face and does not represent a POV. It is common knowledge in Canada that Lindros is loathed in Quebec - partly for shunning the Nordiques and partly for embodying the tall White Protestant male. Quebeckers' fear and loathing of Lindros is both rational and irrational. Let the point stand. Hanes3777.

 * "As well, Lindros is seen to represent the epitome of White Protestant Ontario-based manliness, with its attendant arrogance towards the wishes of the more culturally sensitive Quebecois population." Really, you can't see why I'm editting that??? ccwaters 03:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I edited my paragraph to meet some of your POV concerns. I hardly, however, characterize my discussion about Lindros as hate speech. It is true that Lindros epitomizes certain negative stereotypes of the White Protestant male as he is portrayed in the consciousness of Quebec. Quebeckers have a certain place for Lindros in their psyche and the bottled up angst towards WASPs in general are displayed in large force whenever Lindros plays in Montreal or Quebec City (before they moved in 1995). This phenonenum is not discussed much in the politically correct Canadian media, although you hear mention of it in the Quebec press. Lindros is both loathed and envied for being a successful WASP who shunned Quebec by refusing to play for the Nordiques. He epitomizes all the distasteful Canadian WASP's who have "denied" Quebec over the years and have prevented it from achieving its cultural destiny.

I attended a Leaf game in Montreal this year. Whenever Lindros touched the puck, the boos were loud, intense and defeaning! Keep in mind, the Lindros-Nordiques fiasco took place over 14 years ago! Lindros represents more than just a whiney draft pick who wanted a better deal. Lindros represents a cleavage that runs deep within the Quebec people. Lindros is

an important symbol of the awkward issue of the English-French divide which both mars and spices up Canadian history. Let those three or four sentences stay in the article. From a Canadian perspective, this may end up being Lindros's most important legacy.

Hanes3777

 * This is an encyclopedia article about a hockey player. If you concerned about Quebec's "cultural destiny" I'd advise you to find another outlet to express it. ccwaters 11:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

 * As CCW said, find another outlet to express Quebecois' manifest destiny in attempting to further separate themselves from Anglophone Canada; if you want to provide a viable, non-biased source who agrees with what you're saying that's one thing, but what you're currently adding is culturally biased and unverifiable. RasputinAXP   c  [[Image:Gadsden_flag.svg|25px]] 15:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Please stop calling my entries about Lindros "hate speech". You don't know the meaning of the term if you use it so loosely. I'm simply stating how Lindros is represented within the Quebecois consciousness as a prototypical White Protestant Canadian male who shunned Quebec. I don't badmouth Canadian White Protestant males nor do I badmouth the Quebecois people. You purposely use the term "hate" simply because I am discussing a sensitive issue. That doesn't make it "hate"! If were to discuss Sammy Sosa, and how he is represent in the Latino consciousness within the United States, would that also constitute hatred? Or if I wrote how sometimes George W. Bush is portrayed as the "prototypical arrogant gringo" in Latin America, would that also constitute hate speech? Perhaps my entry lacked some verficiation and was tinged with subjectivity, but it sure didn't constitute hatred. I await an apology. Hanes3777

 * These edits are POV. For example, can you provide a reliable source that can substantiate your sentance, "The people of Quebec never forgot Lindros's stark refusal to play in Quebec."  -- JamesTeterenko 22:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Make those proposed edits at Sammy Sosa and George W. Bush and report back if your results differ. ccwaters 14:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

It is NOT wrong to indicate the Quebec controversy in this article, but it isn't vital to understanding Lindros' life and career outside of Quebec, and should only be mentioned in passing, while a article on, say the Culture of Quebec or the National Question could explore it further in depth. The other thing is that the article should mention a) that Lindros is disliked in Quebec, and b) why, c) where to go to find out more, and that's it. It shouldn't go into a lengthy description of him a stereotype of an evil WASP opressor. Kevlar67 07:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Alright, let's take the phrase "hate speech" off the table as being just as polarizing as the comments it decries. That being said, remarks about "oppression" and "White Protestant Ontario Man" are extremely uncalled for and out of place in a NPOV encyclopedia, all based on a single incident where a teenager who (correctly) figured he could dictate where he could play did so.  Considering that the Lindros trade was one of the most overwhelmingly one-sided deals in hockey history, you'd think that Quebecois still boiling over this fifteen years after the fact should be snickering instead.  Give it a rest.  Ravenswing 20:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Yeah but a) the team left just before they won the cup (the would boil my but too) and b) it's more about deep-seated cultural and political questions that hockey. Which is precisely why it should be briefly mentioned.  But that's it.  And leave it up to people who actually want to write Quebec-themed articles to explain it.  Kevlar67 10:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to add that I never portrayed Lindros as an evil WASP oppressor. He made his decision in 1991 based primarily on his self-interest. However, because of his actions, Lindros represents the negatively stereotypical White Protestant English Canadian in the hearts of Quebeckers. He's a big sturdy alpha male from Ontario who took one look at Quebec and said "No thank you". The implications from his decision abounded. 'Quebec isn't good enough for the prototypical White Protestant Canadian male?' people asked. It really was a proverbial slap in the face. White Protestant domination, which in the minds of most Quebeckers led to their second rate status both economically and politically within Canada, rendered the Nordiques organization too impotent to acquire the best stock that English Canada had to offer. It was a double whammy! Lindros, inadvertedly, but assuredly, occupies a role in the sociopolitical divide that permeates Canada. I have included a source to back up this assertion.

I realize that Lindros's legacy includes more than this issue. He was a hockey player of the Mark Messier style who never quite lived up to his potential, riddled with injuries throughout his career, the source of a lopsided trade, but still a decent hockey man at the end of the day. But the Lindros-Nordiques saga offers an opportunity for a hockey player to transcend the mundane and have his legacy fuse into the fabric of a cultural and political debate. We, as Wikipedia editors, should show a little intellectual courage and present this important aspect of Lindros's legacy. We must ask ourselves: how will Lindros be remembered in 50 years? This is an encyclopedia - not a weekly 'Hockey News' segment. So please stop deleting this important contribution. Hanes3777
 * I reverted your edit again. You still haven't provided a reliable source for your statements; the reference you tried to use just said that Quebeckers were angry at him back when he was drafted. It contained no reference to the following statements you continue to add:
 * he is incessantly booed by the crowd.
 * It's because of his "Anglican sturdiness and lack of respect for French Canadian culture"
 * that he "epitomize(s) all the negative stereotypes of the White Protestant Ontario man"
 * Pardon the pun, but you're skating on really thin ice, here. Please at least sign with ~ next time, and you might want to get yourself an account. RasputinAXP   c  [[Image:Gadsden_flag.svg|25px]] 09:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

______________________________________________________________

The fact that he is booed should be included - because it's true. It may not be sourced on the internet -yet - but anyone who watched a Montreal / Philly game or Montreal / Rangers game in the last decade can attest to this. As for the fact that he is booed because he is a white Ontario Protestant stereotype.... I dont think it gets much more POV than that.

Lindros had a bad reputation among Ontario Alliance and OMHA before and during his tenure in the OHL because he was known for running the smallest guy on the ice. Bad form in the old days before the instigator rule - he made quite a few enemies on the ice.... (its also the reason why I remember everyone cheering when Scott Stevens hammered him - the general feeling was "couldnt have happened to a better guy")

Refusal to play for two teams - one of them the Nordiques only added to the animosity.

That much is true... but I have a hard time believing that French-Canadian fans are booing him because he is Protestant and white.

And no - I haven't found a source even for the boos yet.... but Im looking... the CBC archives have to be good for something.

American fans might find it all hard to believe... but hockey gets taken pretty seriously North of the border.. even more so in those days when the rules hadnt been quite as watered down and the honour system was enforced more than it is today.

CanadianPhaedrus 15:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)CanadianPhaedrus
 * I know Canadian fans may find it hard to believe, but a lot of us Americans take hockey pretty seriously too. The issue isn't that we're dirty Americans not understanding the Canadian national pastime, but that you're adding unsourced, unverifiable information to the article. I could talk til I'm blue in the face of "Buy a Porsche, Hextall, Buy a Porsche! *CLAP*CLAP*" and "PELLE'S DEAAAAAAAAAAD! PELLE'S DEAAAAAAD!" chants at MSG, but I don't have a solid source for it, it's just what I've seen, heard and talked about. RasputinAXP   c  [[Image:Gadsden_flag.svg|25px]] 16:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I meant no offense.... just to me the talk page read as if people were incredulous of hockey fans booing a player over something that seems trivial!

Nor was I implying that American players are dirty - players of all nationalities are taking liberties because of the instigator rule and the most recent no fighting in the last 5 minutes..... dont get me started!!

I know the Northern U.S. knows hockey - its nothing new. My comments were more directed to the Southern U.S. where 5 years ago hockey was nothing more than a strange sport played by damaged people.... the Nashville and Phoenix fans!

Yeah yeah its unsourced... hence the reason for me spending more time than usual looking on CBC... I'll find it somewhere... I love to see Lindros booed!

CanadianPhaedrus 21:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)CanadianPhaedrus

 * Okay, I know how to fix this. Both sides have to agree to two points, and no edits (none!) should be made until we resolve these two points: A) Is Lindros' bad reputation in Quebec and the underlying cultural and political baggage that goes with it worthy of inclusion?  I say it is.  What do others think?  B) Can we agree to source all comments, and not attempt to "read in" what we think the people of Quebec may or may not think?  Can we agree to try out all new edits on this topic in the Talk section before messing with the Main Page?(Haine3777 I'm looking at you!)  Let's agree to solve those two areas first, and then we can work on the details.  Kevlar67 08:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Should I edit the laundry list of sport figures that Philadelphia booes at? Should I make contrived statements that "X player's whiney Y religous/ethnic background was incompatible with the hard working blue collar Catholic Philadelphians"?  Lindros was a spoiled kid who refused to play for 2 horrible teams : one in Quebec, one in Ontario. To imply ethnic motivations is ridiculous. ccwaters 13:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Depends, will they still be booing at them 15 years from now? I don't understand your "contrived statement" argument.  To imply "ethnic motivations" by whom is ridiculous? Lindros? Or Quebeckers? I don't get it.  Here are the facts: Lindros didn't want to play in Quebec for whatever reason (we don't know).  People in Quebec interpreted that as a slight against their society and culture.   Now whether that was Lindros' intention at this point is irrelevant!!!  At this point it has gone into Quebec's national psyche, and that's what the article should mention: that Quebeckers feel slighted by Lindros.  It shouldn't say that he's an evil WASP, and it shouldn't say that Quebeckers are whiney because those are POVs.  The mention of the public feeling of grievance against Lindros in Quebec isn't POV, it's a well known fact in Canada (English Canada too).  It doesn't matter if you think that is rediculous, that's your own POV, which you are entitled to, but that has no bearing on the truth as hand.  By mentioning this public feeling we are not endorsing it, we are simply reporting the facts, because that's what we are supposed to do.  Kevlar67 14:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sourcing anything with something that's usable as a source is fine. Find me a CBC report, or Sports Illustrated, or the Hockey News, not a random webpage, webboard or blog that says what you're trying to add that's contentious, and at least we have SOME way of accounting for it. I'd think the "Quebec National Psyche" is more hurt over the loss of the Nordiques than Lindros. RasputinAXP   c  [[Image:Gadsden_flag.svg|25px]] 17:31, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Re High School
The current page says that Eric Lindros attended St. Michael's College School in Toronto. Being an alumni who would have been there at the same time (graduated 1993), I am fairly certain this was not the case, though I believe his brother Brett did attend the school for one year. The confusion may have arisen because he did play for the Junior B Buzzers which was affiliated with St. Michael's. To clarify, the school had junior and senior teams which were made up of students attending the school, but also ran the Buzzers team which was not limited to players attending St. Mike's.  I have not made any changes to the main page since there is a possibility that I am mistaken, perhaps somebody else attending at the same time could confirm before changes are made. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.112.45.128 (talk) 04:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC).

I don't think he went to St. Mikes or Monarch Park. I'm pretty sure he went to North Toronto CI before he headed down to Detroit to play for Detroit Compuware. I know he went to Glenview SPS for Grade 7 & 8 and then to North Toronto for grade 9 and I believe it was in Grade 10 that he headed down to Detroit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.100.208 (talk) 03:34, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Elvis Stojko
Over the years I've read varying reports (possibly an urban legend) that Lindros engaged figure staker Elvis Stojko in a barroom fight and lost (Stojko is reportedly a black belt martial artist), however I've never seen any actual conclusive evidence to support the story. Does anyone know if it's true? Avalyn 03:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The Stojko fight rumours are completely false.

True or not, the idea that a hockey player, especially one with Lindros' size and skills, could lose a fight to a male figure skater... let's just say it doesn't make Number 88 look too good. And if he denies it, it makes him look like a sore loser. And is Stojko denies it, who's gonna believe him? It's one of those stories that too good to not want it to be true.

I think the above post should be removed. How is this relevant in any way? Stojko is a black belt. I don't care how big Lindros is, a hockey player should lose every fight to a black belt. This is a frivolous and insignificant comment. They're friends, this story is not true. Who cares how it might have hypothetically made either of them look, considering that it never happened?74.108.86.3 06:10, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Question
On ESPN's "SportsCentury" -- a good one, although it could have been expanded to a full hour, such has been Lindros' career -- someone was shown saying, because of the injuries, head cases (figurative and literal/medical) and dashed expectations, "This wasn't the next Gretzky, this wasn't even the first Lindros." Does anyone remember who said it? If anyone knows, I think the line should be included in the entry. If I had remembered, I would've entered it myself, but I don't.

Hold on...
TSN is reporting as of 6:20 EST on July 16th 2006 that Lindros is NOT actually on the Dallas Stars. Secondly, he was drafted first overall by Quebec, and held out on them, causing him to be traded to the Flyers, not what is represented on the main page.

Didn't Eric Lindros assault a woman once early in his career? I remember this but it is not on the main page.74.108.86.3 06:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Lindros was alleged to have done a great many things early in his career, some of which he actually did, much of which was either terribly overblown or whole cloth inventions. I wouldn't touch any such edit without an ironclad link to a mainstream media source.  Ravenswing 07:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Photo
When will you guys get a picture of Eric? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.221.113 (talk • contribs)
 * Currently nobody has contributed a noncopyrighted or free license image. If you have such an image, please add it. Flibirigit 23:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow did you guys find the worst possible picture of him on purpose? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.34.6.34 (talk) 15:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Controversy
Alright, it's an issue which has attracted a good bit of shouting and rhetoric. Yes, I consider the notion that Lindros' snub of Quebec was a vicious, emasculating, racist attack on the Quebecois nation by the Protestant Anglos a heap of bullshit. (Hell, with my high school French, I'd sure as hell want to find work in a place that spoke the same language I did if I had any choice in the matter, and so would any of you, and somehow I doubt too many monoglot Quebecois would jump at the chance to relocate to Philadelphia, either.) Yes, Lindros holding out on them was the best thing that ever happened to the franchise short of its existence in the first place, and yes, teenage boys who are full of themselves are often impolitic about how they turn down something they don't want. But the fury of the Quebecois was palpable, and the article as it stands doesn't mention any of that at all. Does anyone have a desire to put up a well-sourced, short paragraph on the controversy?  Ravenswing  19:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Indeed, refrain from deleting the effects of Lindros' first game in Quebec, as why should that be removed when the armband incident and the spat with Clarke remain? Keep the Quebec incident as well as the rest of Lindros' controversies here until a proper paragraph can be written. TheAxeGrinder 05:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It is written as a copyright violation. Flibirigit 04:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've removed the content once again. If it is a copyright violation, that should be the final say on the matter.  If it is not, that section holds absolutely no encyclopedic value, and diminishes the quality of the article, overall. - Rjd0060 05:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Can someone explain how it holds no encyclopedic value when it clearly illustrates the frustration and reaction of the Quebec Nordique fans over Lindros' behaviour? If that isn't good, then why should Bobby Clarke's feud with Lindros be here? TheAxeGrinder 05:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I disagree. While I'd prefer not to have obscenities in the article, there does need to be some mention of the mood of the Quebecois fans at the time, and as long as any reference is sourced, that should be all it takes.  Ravenswing  23:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. What I had contributed was perfectly fine (although an asterisk may be included in the offending material). The source was also included, so that fills that requirement. TheAxeGrinder 05:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Your comments not only detracted from the article's style, they were and still would be copyright violations. Flibirigit 16:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

 * If my comments detract from the article's style, then remove Bob Clarke's comments, which are the same 'style', and they are NOT copyright violations! TheAxeGrinder 05:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Listen, Flibirigit, STOP DELETING MY ADDITIONS! It is acceptable, it is documented (phone Stephen Cole if you want), and bottom line, IT HAPPENED! Stop deleting it to be a jerk. TheAxeGrinder 05:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Please refrain from calling anyone names. Also, material copied verbatim is not allowed. Also, it severely detracts from the article. Flibirigit 06:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Copying down word-for-word is called plagiarism. You should have learned this in elementary school. If you still disagree with Flibirigit removing the word-for-word copy then go see a doctor. Croat Canuck   Say hello   or just talk  22:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * First off, I am not calling anyone names directly. Secondly, it is NOT plagiarism. Go buy a copy of the book, read the section on this, and tell me if it's really word-for-word. Stop trying to censor what really happened during the game.TheAxeGrinder (talk) 05:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright, this begs the question. Flibirigit, is this, in fact, a copyvio? I'm about ready to hit up the library myself.  Ravenswing  04:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * IMHO, the Lindros-Nordiques controversy need only a small paragraph. In the hockey history of french vs english, the Lindros event pales in comparison to the Richard suspension & later Riot (every hockey english/french squabble, does) -Down with Campbell, Down with Campbell. GoodDay (talk) 15:47, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In the hockey history of French vs. English, it's relatively minor, arguably. It looms quite a bit larger in the history of Lindros' own career, which is what's pertinent.    Ravenswing  07:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This spat with the Nordiques coupled with the feud Lindros had with Clarke in Philly may also be the deciding factor as to whether Lindros deserves to be in the hall. Plus, it leads to the trade that Quebec got those draft picks which ultimately led to their Stanley Cup win in Colorado.TheAxeGrinder (talk) 19:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Personal point of view and speculation as to why an individual may or not be eletected into the Hall of Fame is not grounds for inclusion in an article. Flibirigit (talk) 22:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Obviously I think that the whole Lindros-Quebec flap is notable -- and it was certainly very heavily publicized, for years -- but when one segues into using that as a launchpad for discussion as to Lindros' fitness for the HHOF, then that is axe grinding indeed.  There are numerous hockey forums and bulletin boards upon which such would be welcome.    Ravenswing  22:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Trivia Section
Clearly there are several heated opinions on Lindros - are there any objections if I try to insert the appropriate sourced Trivia tidbits into the article itself. The nickname stuff is covered in the info box, and I think the aribtrator's decision can be added there as well. Leafschik1967 (talk) 23:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Please do. I been meaning to do it for a while now. Flibirigit (talk) 23:42, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. I left out the Stojko part and the "Bon Cop, Bad Cop" references.  Just because the Stojko thing is true, I don't see any reason for it to be included here.  I might go through and bulk up some of the other sections as well.  It seems odd that his career accompishments are treated with a couple cursory paragraphs, and the bulk of the article is about the negative factors in his career.  Leafschik1967 (talk) 02:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Quotes
I altered this section a bit. The quotes in place were not sourced, so I removed them and replaced them. I'm not sure if these are ideal for the site, but I think they work better than completely unreferenced ones.Leafschik1967 (talk) 16:18, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Nickname
Saving nicknames for future use in prose. The Big E The "E Train" The Next One -Djsasso (talk) 01:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Donations
I think his $5 million donation to London Health Sciences should be given its own category, its just mentioned in passing but this was the highest donation ever by a Canadian athlete and in the Top 10 with the likes of Oprah and Bill Gates, Lance Armstrong, etc.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.29.4.43 (talk) 17:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC) I agree that there should be some mention of the generous amount he have to the hospitals in his hometown-London, Ontario. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.134.18 (talk) 19:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Fact Check Please
Please, source this line: "It was estimated he had bled out more than half his body's total blood volume." Given the timeline stated in the article, close to impossible. But regardless, please source anything that could be considered hearsay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fatshambles (talk • contribs) 06:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Image?
people of Texas --EricLindrosNHL (talk) 10:03, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

World Junior Championship
Is it ok if I write an entry about his participation in the WJHC? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.83.84.105 (talk) 17:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Oshawa Generals statistics
"He played parts of three seasons for the Oshawa Generals of the Ontario Hockey League (OHL) from 1990 to 1992. During that time, he scored 180 goals, 200 assists, 380 points and had 437 penalty minutes in 157 games played."

Multiple websites that track hockey stats show these numbers aren't even close. 97 goals, 119 assists and 216 points in 95 games played from 1989-90 to 1991-92. Does anyone know how a discrepancy this massive could occur? http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lindrer01.html http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=3158 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.1.120.200 (talk) 02:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Sources modified on Eric Lindros
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Canada stats
Why are the Canadian national team stats duplicated across two stat tables? Am I missing something? Yr Enw (talk) 20:29, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Eric Lindros


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Royal Tit-Watching (Ornithological) Society of Britain

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. — Xezbeth 20:00, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Royal Tit-Watching (Ornithological) Society of Britain
Piss-take masquerading as factual content - SP-KP 21:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Preferably keep. At the very least merge the information to Titmouse . Samaritan 21:56, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * A royal society should be notable enough. Samaritan 21:58, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I think you're missing the point here - this society isn't real.... - SP-KP 21:59, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Take a closer look at the external link. Either you're missing the joke, or there are some really goofy Brits that really like Titmice. (Titmouses?) android↔talk 22:01, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * No, I do get the joke. My nomination is based on the premise that Wikipedia should contain entries about real things, containing factual information. I'm still a relative newcomer though, so tell me if that's not what WP is about. - SP-KP 22:04, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * That response was directed at Samaritan. android↔talk 22:12, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry, I realised that after I hit "Save page" -SP-KP 22:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Samaritan 22:52, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Is an article that references an already-existing joke site BJAODN-worthy? If not, Delete. I got a laugh out of it, though. android↔talk 22:01, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, or merge to Titmouse and/or BJAODN. The best thing about the article is the link to the external site, which is already at the end of the Titmouse article. -- Mwanner 23:26, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not serious enough for a merge to Titmouse and not funny enough for BJAODN. --Angr/comhrá 10:19, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, a nice try, quite entertaining, but not really worthy of any lasting memorial. Definitely not to merge with Titmouse. Naturenet 17:04, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Talk:Ted Lindsay

Assessment
I have assessed this article as Start Class, as it contains more detail and organization than would be expected of a Stub, although it requires more referencing and in-line citations. I have assessed this as low importance, as I do not feel that many people outside of hockey fans would be familiar with the subject of the article. Cheers, CP 15:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC) Most hockey fans over 30 years of age, have heard of Ted Lindsay. However, I question why he is listed as a prominent person of Kirkland Lake, Ontario when he only played a few years of minor hockey there? What did he do for our community those years to warrant such praise? Kirklandlake (talk) 05:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

To set the record straight.Ted Lindsey was not traded to Chicago for starting up the union.he was traded for second guessing my father(Jimmie Skinner) on the bench behind his back during games.On more than one occassion trainer Lefty Wilson would notify Skinner that Lindsey was telling younger players the opposite of what he had wanted done on the ice.During the off season,General manager Adams phone Skinner and asked him if he wanted Lindsey on his team next season.Skinner's reply was,"If he's on the team next season You can find another coach Jack! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.41.205.101 (talk) 08:40, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * We would need reliable sources to actually show that. So far there are plenty that talk about him being traded because of the union issues. A coach would have been fired long before one of the stars on the team. So its unlikely that he would have been traded because the coach didn't like him. He wasn't some 4th liner. That being said, its entirely possible that Adams asked Skinner his opinion because he was considering trading him because of the union issues. -DJSasso (talk) 19:15, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

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Talk:Carl Liscombe

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User talk:Lillink1222

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Zzyzx11 | Talk 21:38, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please stop adding nonsense to Wikipedia. Rossini's mother's name was NOT Rosy and you know it. Consider this to be your second warning; the first was your first anonymous edit. Antandrus 21:39, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lillink1222


text: Category:History of Lancashire

title: Category:History of Lancashire


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Talk:Matthew Lombardi

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title: Talk:Matthew Lombardi


text: Talk:Kevin Lowe

title: Talk:Kevin Lowe


text: Wikipedia:WikiProject China/Chinese cities workgroup/Prefecture navbox templates


text:
Talk:Roberto Luongo

Captaincy
Contrary to what MrShamrock states: NHL Rule 14D states that “[n]o playing Coach or playing Manager or goalkeeper shall be permitted to act as Captain or Alternate Captain." I have reverted his revision.  -Nathan.

Should be a Panthers pic
Interesting this was “protected against vandalism” and he’s sitting there in a Canuck jersey. He never wanted to be moved and couldn’t wait to get back. He’s a Florida Panther. 170.250.139.143 (talk) 11:28, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

 * Hi IP! Unfortunately Wikipedia is constrained by copyright laws in regards to lots of our content. If you have a free photo of him in a Panthers jersey, please upload it to Wikimedia Commons. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 12:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Post playing career
There's nothing in the article about his work after he retired from playing. Didn't he work for the Florida Panthers management? Might even still be doing that? Jozsefs (talk) 10:23, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2024
Stanley Cup Champion 2024 2001:569:72BA:1D00:79DF:6406:1911:B288 (talk) 05:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 13:51, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Luongo and Spaghetti
Eating spaghetti out of the cup is certainly as noteworthy as any of the other facts about his life post-playing. Roberto Luongo eats spaghetti out of the Stanley cup (youtube.com) 71.218.186.237 (talk) 03:45, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

 * ❌ In lieu of a fancy, policy- or guideline-based reply, I'll just say "Who cares?" Encyclopedia articles are not collections of trivia. And youtube.com is almost always an unusable source to boot. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 03:56, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Roberto Luongo


text:
Talk:Craig MacTavish

Notable achievements
MacTavish's career NHL regular season totals include 1,093 games played, with 213 goals and 267 assists for 480 points, 891 penalty minutes, and 1 year in jail."

Should mention of his year in jail be included in his NHL achievements? ::showem
 * It sure shouldn't, and seems like vandalism to me. I'll change that.  Ravenswing 13:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It may not be appropriate to include in a section called NHL achievements but it is something that needs to be included. Passer1--199.213.65.191 22:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It is. It's currently the second paragraph in the Career section.  It used to be broken out into its own section.  What else needs to be said? Kraigus 20:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

semi-protected
I have temporarily semi-protected this page. I won't leave this on very long. Bucketsofg✐ 23:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sheesh; I just followed that kid's "source." Someone should clue him in to WP:NFT.  Ravenswing 23:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Aaaand ... the vandals are right back again. I don't know how a mere 26-hour protection period is "too long," but plainly it isn't nearly long enough. Ravenswing 17:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * For one vandal with a probable dynamic IP address, we shouldn't be protecting the article for that long... --Madchester 18:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Presuming it's a single vandal, rather than a group of them. I see no evidence to make such a presumption ... do you?  Ravenswing 02:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia articles should not be protected for very long (see WP:PPOL), unless the vandalism is persistent. The vandal edits were all from the same IP range in a short period of time; no need to extend the protection time. --Madchester 03:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

contract
I'd not heard of the "contractural" item about MacT never driving the team bus before - I didn't imagine that NHL players ever tended to drive their own buses anyway. I don't see a cite for it, I'd be tempted to remove it if nobody can come up with one. (I may go digging myself at some point.) I'll fix the typo for now, at any rate. Kraigus 03:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a good point. I'll tag it if it hasn't been already.  Ravenswing 06:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Can someone remove it please? The link "supporting" it says nothing other than he was convicted of vehicular homicide.
 * I removed it and an anonymous user added the line again. Schoeppe (talk) 03:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Removing it again, somebody's re-added. Kraigus (talk) 15:43, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Helmet use in Boston
I don't recall MacTavish wearing a helmet in Boston. The link "supporting" that claim doesn't mention it at allCapt3 (talk) 06:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Craig MacTavish


text: Talk:Gerry McNeil

title: Talk:Gerry McNeil


text:
Talk:Pete Mahovlich

Hall of Fame?
How is he not in the Hall of Fame? 108.173.94.174 (talk) 11:26, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pete Mahovlich


text:
Talk:Clint Malarchuk

Untitled
EDIT 5.29.2013 I'm not sure how to handle this so I figured it best to post here and let someone more experienced sort it out. Much of the information in the Gun Incident section has now been contradicted by Clint and Joan Malachuk themselves, in on-camera interviews for ESPN's 30-for-30 series which can be seen here. Specifically:

"Malarchuk was discovered bleeding profusely on a bench by his wife, Joan, who had just arrived home from work, and she immediately called the authorities." This is contradicted by Joan who states on-camera that she spoke to Clint leading up to the shooting, and in fact she witnessed it happen.

Also:

"Nevada's Record Courier reported that, according to his wife, Malarchuk, who was hunting rabbits at the time, had rested the rifle between his legs and with its butt on the ground when it suddenly discharged." This is contradicted by Joan who states on-camera that she spoke to Clint in the moments before the shooting and that he was making suicidal remarks.

END EDIT 5.29.2013

"Still, Malarchuk came within minutes of becoming only the second on-ice fatality in NHL history (the first, and thus far only, was Bill Masterton)."

Well, according to Masterton's page he didn't die on the ice he died 2 days later as a result. Contradiction here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.85.183 (talk) 03:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Howie Morenz also died due to an on-ice NHL incident - complications of a broken leg. Since Masterson also died days after the incident, I think both should be included. Im.a.lumberjack (talk) 19:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Howie Morenz died from indirect causes, Masterson died due to direct trauma caused on ice. Malachuk would have died on ice had he been on the other side of the rink.

Can someone with an account please add this image of the player/injury in question: http://tinypic.com/dfueeb.jpg

I'm a goaltender myself, and possibly people reading this are. We don't really need a horrific image like that since young goalies and young persons may see it. And, Yes I have seen the video, can't link to that or the picture... Brak710101 21:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Censorship? On an Encylopedia? Because of the age of users? That's a terrible excuse to stunt someone's education. Next you'll want to ban D.A.R.E. and TRUTH because it exposes children to grotesque images and knowledge about drugs.

Considering that wikipedia has links to a very grotesque site in regards to an Westerner being beheaded this is a gross inconsistency to block a link to this hockey video. Also for safety reasons, it may be a strong tool to see this video to deter people from not wearing safety mechanisms. I've tried very hard to find a video of it and can't!

I'm new to submitting info and not a good writer. This player also had a very close call with death when he mixed alcohol with a medication. Also, I heard that at least one (possibly 3) persons had a heart attack in the crowd and that several of his teammates and/or opponents vomited. --germankcc@yahoo.com

 * The video is easy to find on YouTube . I would not be opposed to linking to the YouTube video in the external links section, with a warning about graphic content.  Including the still in the article would be waaaaaay over the top, though.  --13.12.254.82 23:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I added a youtube link to the video of the accident on 24 Feb, the change was removed 4 minutes later by someone citing WP:YOUTUBE. On reviewing the policy on youtube links the policy is clear that there is no blanket ban on linking to youtube in extended links. Youtube/google video appear on the links to avoid list because video links often break the guidelines on the external links page. If WP:EL (on which WP:YOUTUBE appears) is to be used as an excuse to revert my edit, a mention to a specific policy the video breaks should be made, not a caution list. Link to be re-added.Pissedpat (talk) 05:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The most gruesome injury in professional sporting history?
The article currently (12.11.13) asserts: "Malarchuk's injury has been widely referred to as professional sports' most gruesome injury." There is a strong implication that it is generally accepted that this is the most gruesome sport injury. It may well be the case that many hockey fans (that are spread widely around the world), refer to this as the "most gruesome professional sports injury". However, it is wrong to so strongly imply that the neutral encyclopedic viewpoint is that this one in particular is the most gruesome. It is a hugely contentious point. There are billions of sports fans and thousands of deaths throughout the history of sport. Malarchuk survived and played again.

Wikipedia's biography of living persons policy states: "Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons

Some other sport injuries that are doubtlessly "widely regarded" as being more gruesome: Aryton Senna RIP (3-time Formula 1 champ) Andrew Simpson RIP (Olympic sailing champion) Dan Wheldon RIP (Indycar champ) Paul Wood (rugby league player) (burst testicle) Brian Foster (UFC fighter) (burst testicle) I rest my case. In line with Wikipedia's policy I'm deleting the sentence.CNWLcanBGrade1 (talk) 20:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I would disagree about Andrew Simpson. Wiki's article states Simpson was underwater for 10 minutes....he drowned.  Tragic?  Absolutely.  But "gruesome"?  Debatable, at least when compared to Malarchuk, Senna, etc.  (For the record, "gruesome" is defined as "causing great horror; horribly repugnant; grisly".)  Elsquared (talk) 01:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Nationalities
I changed "Albertan" back to "Canadian". It's highly unusual to refer to a state or province as a "nationality" unless that province is substantially distinct from the rest of the nation (Tibet, for example). I know I wouldn't refer to myself as "New Jerseyan". ;) Thunderbunny 06:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add that Clint is now a US citizen and lives in Northern Nevada, a bit of biography. After his career in hockey he learned to become an Equine Dentist and now operates his business the Canuck Ranch out of Gardnerville, NV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.141.235.135 (talk) 22:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Copyright violation
Half of this article seems to be on this site http://www.cyberscumbag.com/malarchuk.htm also. If this comes from there the article needs changing.

 * I'm pretty sure the text on that page came from Wikipedia, not the other way around. I know this because I started the article myself and came up with most of the text independently, and I am 100% sure I've never seen this external site before. Thunderbunny 01:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Carotid or jugular?
This article claims the injury was to his 'interior carotid artery'. But the articles linked here say it was his jugular vein, which is not the same thing. Is there any good source for 'carotid artery'? --210.10.133.116 08:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

 * It was the carotid. The jugular does not spray that much blood due to the lower pressure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.245.87 (talk) 00:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Under that notion, the main page has not been changed. It still says jugular vein, and that the carotid is incorrect. Which one is it, and if Jugular, was it the Internal or External (I believe it was the external, makes more physical sense)? Pir (talk) 23:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

 * The same source that claims the bleeding was from the jugular vein says the blood squirted out with every heartbeat: definite a clue it was the carotid artery. DrJos (talk) 12:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 15:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC) The pressure in the internal jugular vein is much lower than the carotid artery, however its much greater diameter accounts for such a larger volume of blood being lost in a short period of time (see "Hagen-Poiseuille equation"). The jugular veing is the vessel that was injured in Malarchuk's case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crna82002 (talk • contribs) 18:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Players Vomiting?
I've watched the YouTube video several times, and I personally see no evidence that any player vomited on the ice. However, the video is cited after that statement in the article. I'd appreciate it if someone could either point out to me where this occurs, or change the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.37.225.201 (talk) 00:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Richard Zednik's injury
can we add a little mention of Richard Zednik's near death injury that happened when Olli Jokinen accidentally cut Zednik's neck similar to Malarchuk's injury in 1989.--Boutitbenza 69 9 (talk) 01:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

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Collarbone pressure
''"He led Malarchuk off the ice then applied extreme pressure by kneeling on his collarbone—a procedure designed to produce a low breathing rate and low metabolic state, which is preferable to exsanguination."'

I am unable to find any sources supporting either the claim that the trainer, Jim Pizzutelli, ever knelt on Malarchuk's collarbone; nor any information to suggest this procedure would result in a lower metabolic state.

Also the interjection that this would be "preferable to exsanguination" would likely be agreed upon by the vast majority of people, but should probably be reworded in a less tongue-in-cheek manner.

Mouthofthetornado (talk) 14:34, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Clint Malarchuk


text: Talk:Moe Mantha Sr.

title: Talk:Moe Mantha Sr.


text:
User talk:Soup man

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
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Zzyzx11 | Talk 21:39, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Soup man


text: Talk:Moe Mantha Jr.

title: Talk:Moe Mantha Jr.


text: Talk:Sylvio Mantha

title: Talk:Sylvio Mantha


text:
Talk:Patrick Marleau

Untitled
A few days ago, during a Fox Sports Bay Area TV broadcast of a Sharks game (I forget which game), Marleau himself talked about his "home town" of Aneroid. I'm not sure where his actual birth place was, but I changed that sentence to clarify that his home town is Aneroid, and added a "citation needed" for the Swift Current reference, as I personally have never heard the town associated with him other than in this article. However, his stated birthplace at the beginning of the article was Aneroid, so I changed that to Swift current because it is inconsistent with aforementioned birthplace reference, and I'm giving the author the benefit of the doubt.

Also, I added an update about his progress during the current NHL season.PrinceYumil 11:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Why was the trade rumor deleted that I posted? It is a true rumor.Naps90 20:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Patrick Marlowe —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kozy (talk • contribs) 14:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Gaining consensus on his b-day
His birthplace according to hundreds of reliable sources like TSN, ESPN, NHL, Yahoo, etc. all say his birthplace is Aneroid. Regardless of what may be true or not, wikipedia goes by what the sources say  under Verifiability. There is one source that says that versus 20 others I can name that says Aneroid.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 05:41, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Here are sources that say Aneroid. (You are free to add more).
 * NHL, TheHockeyNews, HockeyDraft.ca, ESPN, CBS, CTV, Sportsnet
 * HHoF, TSN--Львівське (talk) 06:12, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I found one real source for Swift Current the rest were all mirrors of wikipedia. (you are free to add more)
 * Olympics.ca
 * NHLPA --Львівське (talk) 06:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I know this is just a blog, but the guy seems to know the subject well and nails it: "It made me think back to a Patrick Marleau story when I was living in Swift Current. I should state that Marleau is from a small community about an hour from Swift Current called Aneriod."source --Львівське (talk) 06:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Support (for Aneroid)

 * support: I think the abundance of sources + the blog posting should make this argument incredibly clear at this point.--Львівське (talk) 06:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * comment: I don't see how the blog makes his birthplace clear, to me it refers to his hometown, not the place of birth.  he knows his WHL stuff (referring to the blog), but that is hardly a concrete response about birthplace.  Canada Hky (talk) 03:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * True, and the only interview so far I've found has him stating his hometown is Aneroid / he grew up on a farm (link)--Львівське (talk) 03:22, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments

 * Comment I think the reason you see both in some sources is that Aneroid does not have a hospital, so he would have been born in Swift Current. Yet his family was living in Aneroid. This has happened for other players in other locations in the past. Sometmes websites mix up hometown with birthplace in their listings. -DJSasso (talk) 13:36, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally I would lend more weight to the NHLPA site than any of the others because it uses information that would have been provided by Marleau himself as opposed to just replicating what was in other sources like the other websites would have done. -DJSasso (talk) 13:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Bear in mind the NHLPA website states "hometown" and not "birthplace"--Львівське (talk) 16:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, you don't need a hospital to have a baby. Plus the fact that Aneroid is 73km away from Swift Current makes that point invalid. Since it'll take at least an hour to make it from home to Swift Current.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 20:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to mention, assuming he was born in a hospital in a nearby city is guesswork on our part. Nobody from Aneroid has ever been born in Aneroid? --Львівське (talk) 22:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It is extremely rare these days to not have a baby in a hospital (even back when he was born) And in rural saskatchewan, yes it is very common to travel 73 KM to go to the hospital for a birth. Some even travel further. I think the logical solution would be to do what is done on many places is to put that his hometown is Aneroid and that sources differ on his actual place of birth between Aneroid and Swift Current. Though knowning what I know of Saskatchewan I find it highly unlikely he was born in Aneroid. -DJSasso (talk) 12:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Why don't we have a hometown field in the infobox, anyway?--Львівське (talk) 17:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Because for 90% of players birthplace is hometown. And hometown can be very very subjective. Seen debates on it in the past for biographies (not necessarily hockey players). For example some people consider your hometown where you were born no matter what since hometown means where you came from. Others have a more general view of what a hometown is, ie where you grew up. Others equate it to where you spend the most time in your life. -DJSasso (talk) 19:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it could be an optional field for the 10% of cases where there needs disambiguation, like John Tavares or any number of players born abroad but raised in Canada, etc.--Львівське (talk) 19:40, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * But that doesn't solve the problem of what a hometown is. To me (and many others) your hometown is where you were born. Others it is where you are raised. You would end up having nothing but arguements like this one on every page because one persons hometown is not another persons hometown. Hometown is not quantifiable. -DJSasso (talk) 19:44, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Comment I would think logically that it is highly unlikely that he was born in Aneroid - yes there are home births, but they are becoming increasingly uncommon, most babies are born in hospitals. The old birthplace / hometown distinction rears its head here.  Short of an interview with his parents or himself, we are unlikely to get a solid answer.  Canada Hky (talk) 03:08, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - his mother recently confirmed that Patrick was born in Swift Current to the SIHR. Not sure on whether the NHL pages can be updated or not. Connormah (talk) 05:56, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Marleau's birthplace
Since the above discussion is mis-titled and hasn't reached any conclusion, I have started this section and will attempt to refocus the discussion.

1) Until we reach a consensus I suggest that we leave the birthplace as "Swift Current", as it was the last stable version.

2) Some sources say Swift Current, some say Aneroid. When there are conflicting sources, the quality of the sources should be considered.  I believe the birthplace information on the Canadian Olympic Committee site (which indicates Swift Current) to be the highest quality. The COC would have verified Marleau's birth certificate, passport etc. when confirming that he is eligible to represent Canada. ESPN, Sportsnet etc. would not have access to these documents.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The NHL, TSN, and the HHoF all trump the olympics website in terms of reliability.--Львівське (talk) 19:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know they they necessarly do, since as he mentioned the Olympic Committee would have had to verify those things to make sure he was elligable to play. With the exception of maybe the NHL site, none of the others would have done that and just gone on press releases etc. -DJSasso (talk) 19:40, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I dunno, this is just a small informationless bio on the COC page, I wouldn't say it's any more reliable than ESPN.com or other slapped together bios. At least NHL.com and HHOF are legit hockey-exclusive content providers.--Львівське (talk) 01:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not agree that being "hockey-exclusive" makes a source more reliable. The Canadian Olympic Committee would have put greater effort into scrutinizing Marleau's birthplace and therefore is a more reliable source for this information.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 01:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, the COC would have put less effort in, since it's just a bio tacked on during the Olympics. It's not like the COC itself reviewed the bio, it was just some webmaster on a deadline slapping things together. The NHL and HHOF on the other hand deals exclusively with hockey players and the NHL in particular has a great database of official information.--Львівське (talk) 01:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The COC verifies athletes citizenship by reviewing documents like birth certificates and passports to ensure that the athletes are eligible to represent Canada. This is a higher level of scrutiny. Why do you consider the NHL database to be "great"?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 01:50, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt that the COC's website checked Marleau's birth certificate for his bio snippet.--Львівське (talk) 02:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Why would the birth place on the the COC web site be different from what they received from the athletes and verified?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 03:03, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt the COC reviews birth certificates as they represent the athletes like the NHLPA. Hockey Canada is the one that is concerned with this, since they pick and have to verify everyone eligibility.Hockey Canada's website only says hometown and it says Aneroid which doesn't really mean anything since it says hometown.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 11:13, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if the sports federations (like Hockey Canada) verify citizenship documents and not the COC, wouldn't the federations pass on that information to the COC for accreditation of the athletes? It's not really relevant, but the COC is not an athlete's association like the NHLPA.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't the team that drafted him know his birthplace and employer as they most likely have a copy of his birth certificate.. IE the sharks which says Aneroid. Remember the NHL looks at ALL birth certificates of players that enter the draft. So why would the NHL have a wrong b-day. The COC is not concerned with how players get chosen. They are concerned with how much they get paid, travel costs, and setting everything up. Just like the IOC. That is also why I said it's like the NHLPA.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 03:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

 * One more thing. I think you have an Bia's in this. The COC wasn't even a source of yours yet before you supported Swift Current before you even new it was a source. You supported the NHLPA, which said hometown.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 04:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what you are accusing me of. Can you please explain?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 08:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm not accusing you of anything what I said is I think you are unconditionally supporting Swift Current when there was no real source for it. You have been reverting any change from it for the past year. You also adding the one source: the NHLPA. Which said hometown while many others clearly said birthplace and there was really no source that said birthplace Swift Current. The only real one that came out was the COC which only had a page for him for the past couple of months since it was his fist olympics. I have yet to find another source that says Swift Current that isn't a mirror of wikipedia beside the COC.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 09:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The NHLPA site did indicate that his birthplace was Swift Current. The site has changed and now lists hometowns instead of birthplaces.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay one more thing. I'm changing the birthplace to see section below and noting that different sources say different things until we reach consensus. This way the reader also knows that different sources say different things.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 04:03, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

By the way, the official website of the Sharks spells Aneroid as his birthplace. As this site is managed by people close to the franchise and is meant to have reliable information (especially by players themselves or official sources, as well as nhl.com), I would say Aneroid should be picked. Let's say, if there were a mistake or an ambiguity, the club would know, and Patrick Marleau among others would surely mention it to make it right. Mianreg (talk) 19:18, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * NHL tend to list hometown instead of birth place and that was their practice for as long as I can remember. A quick search on Google gives a quick answer – Swift Current, Saskatchewan. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:58, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Inaccurate caption in Playing Career section
In the Playing Career section, there is a photo with the caption "Marleau during the 2009–10 season. In that season, he became the first member of the Sharks to score more than 30 goals in a single season." That is inaccurate. Several Sharks had scored 30 or more goals in a single season prior to the 2009-2010 season. During the 2005-2006 season, Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals. However, Marleau did score 44 goals that season - his highest single-season NHL tally to date. Perhaps that was what the writer had intended to call attention to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.55.55.39 (talk) 19:19, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 00:56, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Regarding retirement
Wouldn’t the retirement be 2022 instead of 2021 cuz he just retired today the years active I mean CallOfDutyFan101 (talk) 21:39, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Patrick Marleau


text:
Talk:Richard Matvichuk

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Talk:Trent McCleary

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Talk:Lanny McDonald

Tamarack Brewing Company
I reverted the edit that added the following information to the article: "He now owns a brewing company in lakeside, Montana called tamarack brewing company Ale house and Grill." This information is false, Lanny McDonald is the not the owner of this business as the edit implied. The buisness is owned by Josh and Andra Townsley. Andra, being McDonalds daughter. , are a couple of articles found that clearly state the owners of the business. This also shows proof that the second to last edit was also incorrect, as the edit changed the name of his daughter from Andra to Andrea, when clearly the name is Andra and shouldn't have been changed. Cmr08 (talk) 00:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

wrong info
he played for the colorado avalanche, the colorado rockies was a baseball team get it right please — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.48.101 (talk) 16:34, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * We did. Colorado Rockies (NHL). Resolute 16:46, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Recent reversion

 * 1) What's "consistent" about a citation style that italicises the title of an article when it's from, for example, CNN/Sports Illustrated, but not a similar article from the Calgary Herald?
 * 2) If you mean the infobox birthplace, what's the point of this ridiculously convoluted code?

 * Chained links, piped abbreviations where no abbreviation is needed, and an unnecessary link to Canada (per WP:OVERLINK). How does this benefit the reader who just want to know where the player comes from?

Colonies Chris (talk) 19:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * On your first question, you will have to take that up at Template talk:Citation, as the differences in italicization are built into the template. Regardless, mixed citation formats are discouraged. Changing some to the cite x format while the rest are in the citation format is not a desired thing, and I would appreciate it if you didn't do this. Resolute 22:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems that the difference is caused by the presence or absence of the 'work' parameter. If, for example, a cite were to be coded as  rather than , the the title would appear unitalicised, consistent with other similar citations. In another example,   would be better as  , omitting CNN entirely, since knowing the owner/publisher of SI has no value to anyone checking the citation. Colonies Chris (talk) 10:00, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. Written publications, such as books and newspapers are italicized.  Websites are not.  This is something that has consistently been done through many FA and GA nominations, and is consistent with the examples on the citation template itself. Resolute 16:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, and since I missed part of your comment... CNN/Sports Illustrated (or CNN/SI) was not the same as Sports Illustrated.  CNN/SI was a formal web partnership between CNN and Sports Illustrated.  Though there may be merit to that change in this case, as the entire website has been rebranded to focus on SI, rather than both together. Resolute 17:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

 * On the second, the separate links to town, province/state, country in the infobox is an internal project standard, and is used on thousands of articles. If you wish to propose a change there, please bring it up at WT:HOCKEY to discuss changing for all articles, not just this one. Thanks, Resolute 22:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I can see that this silly format is widely used in hockey player articles, but I can find no evidence in WP:HOCKEY that it's a 'standard'; can you give me a link to where this was discussed/agreed? Colonies Chris (talk) 09:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Couldn't tell you off hand, but that is immaterial. You are aware that this is the established standard as it is pretty much universally used. If you wish to change it, the burden to establish consensus is yours.  I am not necessarily opposed to making a change, but I am opposed to doing it in a one-off fashion.  I encourage you to open a discussion at WT:HOCKEY.  Thanks, Resolute 16:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Images
Are there any pictures of McDonald from the '70s and '80s, when he was playing? Brutannica (talk) 18:57, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not aware of any that are properly licensed and which we could use. This is, unfortunately, an ongoing challenge with players (people, really) from the 1950s up to the advent of digital photography. Resolute 20:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * What does digital photography have to do with it? Brutannica (talk) 17:50, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Made it incredibly cheap and easy to produce good quality images. The number of people who took their cameras to games in the 35mm photography era was far lower than today. That makes it harder to find images from that period of time that are licensed properly for our use. Resolute 18:12, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lanny McDonald


text: Talk:Walt McKechnie

title: Talk:Walt McKechnie


text:
Bardon Hill

Bardon Hill is the highest Hill in Leicestershire and on a clear day the Malvern and Shropshire Hills (approx. 50–60 miles), summits in Derbyshire (approx. 30–40 miles) and Lincoln Cathedral (almost 50 miles away) can be seen. However, the Sugar Loaf in South Wales, sometimes cited as visible from Bardon, cannot be seen, being over 90 mi away.

Near the top of the hill are two radio masts; the smaller of the two was built for the BBC as a link for Outside broadcast linking into the Sutton Coldfield Transmitter. This was then moved to the now larger mast which was originally built by an electricity supply company, it is now owned by Cellnex after Arqiva sold its UK wireless business in October 2019 and provides the NOW Leicester DAB radio service.

The landscape was already attracting visitors before John Curtis wrote in the 1830s: he suggests that the view extends to over 5000 sqmi or one-twelfth of England and Wales. Potter also notes of the view from Bardon Hill that "it probably commands a greater extent of surface than any other point of view on the island" and that "An outline, described from the extremity of this view, would include nearly one-fourth of England and Wales. It may be deemed one of the most extraordinary points of view in Nature." This has attracted telecommunication companies, and large transmitters and radio masts have replaced both the Summer House and Queen Adelaide's Bower.

Bardon Hill is also a 13.1 hectare biological Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) in the civil parish of Bardon, east of Coalville in Leicestershire, England.

Bardon Hill is part of the eroded remains of a volcano. It is the highest point in Leicestershire and the National Forest, 278 m above sea level. Due to its prominence, it is visible for many kilometres around. It adjoins Bardon Hill Quarry, a geological SSSI. At its summit are a trigonometrical point and a radio mast. The second highest hill in Leicestershire is the nearby Beacon Hill.

"Bardon" or "Bardon Hill" was also the name of a village south-west of the hill. Most of the village has been demolished but the toponym "Bardon Hill" remains in use as the postal address of the remaining local properties.

Ecology
The hill is a surviving fragment of the formerly extensive Charnwood Forest, and it has both woodland and heath. Mature oak dominates the lower slopes, with pine plantation higher up, and a mixture of heath, acid grassland, rock outcrops and scrub oak at the top. The hill is notable for its lichens and invertebrates, especially spiders with 133 species including the rare Tetrilus macrophthalmus.

Geology
The Hill is formed of Neoproterozoic volcanic rocks of the Bardon Hill Volcanic Complex.

The volcanic complex is described as being similar to that of the Soufrière Hills, a Stratovolcano on the British island of Montserrat in the Caribbean. The hill and surrounding land is formed of a mixture of igneous and volcanic rocks formed in the precambrian age (600 million years old); the surrounding areas are overlaid with a mixture of boulder clay and Mercia mudstone.

Quarry
The earliest mention of a granite quarry at Bardon Hill was in 1622. A small quarry is shown on a map of 1835, with large scale working starting in 1857.

Commercial exploitation was made possible by several local nonconformist families, and the opening of the Leicester and Swannington Railway. The line passed close to Bardon Hill, and a short branch line was added to allow direct exportation from the quarry to the railway network. The railway was under the influence of local Quakers, the Ellis family, for several generations, before being sold to the Midland Railway whilst under the control of MP John Ellis.

Joseph Ellis II served as Director of the Leicester and Swannington Railway, and formed a partnership with Mr. Breedon Everard of Groby to use the railway as first coal merchants, before extending to granite extraction.

Joseph Ellis II's two sons (James and Joseph III) continued the partnership with Breedon Everard following his death, and, in 1858, leased the Bardon Hill quarries from Robert Jacomb-Hood II of Bardon Hall. The lease was for twenty-one years for a rent of £145 a year.

Following the sale of Bardon Hall by Jacomb-Hood, to William Perry Herrick of Beaumanor Hall, in 1864, Everard and the Ellis' renegotiated the lease of the quarry which allowed it to be developed and mechanised. Leading this mechanisation was the introduction of Charles G Mountain of Birmingham's steam crusher, which cost £7500: it needed only 8 men to operate but produced between 60 and 80 tons of quarried stone per 10-hour day.

The owners of the quarry were paternalistic in nature: At the joint expense of the new owner William Perry Herrick, and the leaseholders, (the Ellis' and Breedon Everard), cottages and a school were built for the quarry's workmen and their families, in the village of Bardon. In 1898 a new parish church was built, and a stipend provided to pay for a clergymen. The architect of the church, school and houses was Breedon Everard's second son, John Breedon Everard, who had joined the Ellis and Everard firm in 1874. The quarry and its owners offered 'ambitious opportunities for upward social mobility' that were unusual for the time: a quarry labourers on living in one of the cottages in 1881 was a teacher; within the quarry, uneducated labourers rose to positions of high management.

Ellis & Everard, was first listed on the London Stock Exchange in 1988. In 1991 it merged with Evered plc to form Evered Bardon; the name was changed in 1993 to Bardon Group. In 1997 it merged again, this time with Camas (formerly a division of English China Clays), to form Aggregate Industries. In 1999 it entered into a series of major acquisitions in the United States. It was acquired by Holcim, a leading Swiss cement maker, in 2005.

The Bardon Hill Quarry serves as the headquarters of Aggregate Industries and is one of the 5 "Super-Quarries" it owns in the UK.

In 2009 the company applied to extend the quarry. The existing quarry covers 27 hectares and had a remaining reserve of 30 million tonnes of stone; with a current extraction rate of 3 million tonnes a year, it was expected to be exhausted by 2019. The proposal was to expand the current quarry by 66 hectares (more than trebling the size), allowing the extraction of an additional 132 million tonnes and extending the quarry's lifespan by 40 years. Following the exhaustion of the existing quarry, the company stated it would partially infill the site over a period of around 11 years, and turn it into a nature area.

Royal visit
In 1840, the then deer park was chosen as a picnic spot for a visit by Queen Adelaide, the Queen Dowager. T. R. Potter describes the Royal scene in The History of Charnwood Forest:

 * Her Majesty, in a dress of elegant simplicity suited to the occasion, supported by Earl Howe, and her Royal sister (the Duchess of Saxe Weimar) by Lord Curzon, ascended the steep with great apparent ease. On arriving at the summit, upwards of an hour was spent in the enjoyment of the wonderful prospect, of which her Majesty frequently expressed her admiration – Lord Howe pointing out the many remarkable near and distinct objects which the fineness of the day brought within the reach of view.

 * The Queen's repast was laid out on the grass on the east side of the Summer House, but her Majesty, finding the sun oppressive, wished to remove to the adjoining shade – and setting the example, took up the first dish, and was followed by the rest of the party, all bearing some portion of the viands. The place selected by the Queen for the rural banquet has since been named "Adelaide's Bower."

Bardon Park
Bardon Park was a medieval deer park, covering about 1200 acre. Bardon Hill was within the area of the park, and also Bardon Hall (see below). It is said that the area was emparked prior to AD 1300. The line of the southerly boundary of the park runs a few metres north of the A 511 road.

There are still deer within the area of Bardon park, as well as foxes and badgers. There are breeding pairs of buzzard and peregrine as well as raven and barn owls.

Bardon Hall
The old hall was a moated house, in a shallow valley south of Bardon Hill. In the 1830s, a new hall was built halfway up the hillside. The current hall is a gentleman's residence with a southerly aspect and with commanding views over the parkland. The old hall was demolished, probably at about the time the new hall was built, but the moat that surrounded the old hall remains. The current hall is a Grade II Listed building and is the head office of Aggregate Industries, the owners of the Bardon Hill Quarry.

For several hundred years Bardon Hall was the home of the Hood family. In the 1830s a Mr Robert Jacomb inherited Bardon Park (which included Bardon Hill and Bardon Hall) from William Hood who was a relative of his father's first wife. Robert took the name Jacomb-Hood.

Bardon Park Chapel
In the 1690s the owner of Bardon Hill and Bardon Park, John Hood, built a Christian meeting house at the gate of the Bardon estate. This is said to be the oldest Non-conformist place of worship in Leicestershire, and indeed over a wide area of the East Midlands.

The date "1877" is carved in the stonework above the door of the meetinghouse or chapel, this being the date the building was re-modelled. The basic structure of the building is regarded as dating from the 1690s.

The building was originally known as "Bardon Meetinghouse" or "Bardon Park Meetinghouse" and the congregation worshipping there would have been referred to as "Bardon Meeting". Today, the building is called Bardon Park Chapel.

Bardon village
During the 19th century a village of quarry workers' cottages was built southwest of Bardon Hill. Bardon village had the postal address "Bardon Hill". The cottages were very close to the quarry, and were demolished in about 1988.

Parish church
The Church of England parish church of Saint Peter was built in 1899. It is beside the main A511 road, a short distance east of the Birch Tree public house. It had its own vicar, but is now part of a united benefice with Christ Church, Coalville and St. Michael and All Angels, Ravenstone.

Schools
There have been three school buildings at Bardon.

In the 19th century, before the Elementary Education Act 1870, there was a Non-conformist "British School" day-school in the schoolroom behind Bardon Park Chapel. This was in addition to the Sunday school which operated from 1820 onwards.

Later, a day-school was built in the row of quarryworkers' cottages near the quarry. This school subsequently moved to a new building nearby. The schoolhouse in the row of quarryworkers' cottages no longer exists. It was demolished along with the cottages. The second school building still stands and is used as offices and laboratory for Aggregate Industries.

title: Bardon Hill


text:
Talk:Jim McKenny

Assessment
I've upgraded this from stub to start.

title: Talk:Jim McKenny


text:
Three-tier system (alcohol distribution)

The three-tier system of alcohol distribution is the system for distributing alcoholic beverages set up in the United States after the repeal of Prohibition. The three tiers are importers or producers; distributors; and retailers. The basic structure of the system is that producers can sell their products only to wholesale distributors who then sell to retailers, and only retailers may sell to consumers. Producers include brewers, wine makers, distillers and importers. The three-tier system is intended to prohibit tied houses and prevent "disorderly marketing conditions."

Some states chose to become alcoholic beverage control jurisdictions after Prohibition. In these states, part or all of the distribution tier, and sometimes also the retailing tier, are operated by the state government itself (or by contractors operating under its authority) rather than by independent private entities.

The only state with a privately operated retailing and distribution system that does not require any form of three-tier system is the State of Washington. In Washington, retailers may purchase alcoholic beverages directly from producers, may negotiate volume discounts, and may warehouse their inventory themselves. However, the three-tier system largely remains in fact a reality in Washington despite the lack of a law requiring it.

History and legal justification
In 1933 the 18th Amendment was repealed by the 21st Amendment. (Previously, the 18th Amendment had outlawed alcohol in the US in 1919 and led to Prohibition in 1920.) Section 2 of the 21st Amendment specifies that the power to control alcohol resides with the states, leaving each state to decide when and how to repeal Prohibition.

After Prohibition, the states began to seek methods to regulate and control the alcohol industry. The states were also eager to devise a method to levy and collect taxes on alcohol producers. Both of these concerns led to the states individually creating environments in which single ownership of all three tiers (production, distribution and retail) was entirely or partly prohibited. As states were left by the 21st Amendment to regulate themselves, alcohol laws and the nature of the three tier system can vary significantly from state to state.

Exceptions and regulations
States have various exceptions to this rule, the most prevalent one being the case of a brewpub, which is simultaneously a producer and retailer, and has no requirement to sell to a distributor. Some states allow an entity to have a part in two of the tiers, letting small breweries act as their own distributor, for example. Many states permit wineries to sell bottles of wine on-site to customers.

Usually producers will give a distributor exclusive rights to market their product within a geographical area, so that there will not, for example, be two distributors of Anheuser-Busch products competing against each other.

Rules also vary according to what kind of relationships each of the tiers can enter into with the other two tiers. For example, a producer may not be allowed to give promotional items or services to a retailer. Another example is that a beer distributor might be responsible for setting up and maintaining draft lines in a restaurant, or may be legally prohibited from doing so, depending on the state.

Also, several states are alcoholic beverage control states - in any of these jurisdictions state governments maintain a monopoly on the distribution tier of the system (at least for distilled beverages). Some (such as Utah and Pennsylvania) monopolize the distribution and retail tiers. Those that maintain monopolies over the distribution system only (such as Michigan) could still be said to have a three-tier system – in such states producers sell to the distributor (in these cases, the state as opposed to a private operator) who in turn sells to private retail outlets.

The only substantial exception to the three-tier system is the State of Washington. In November 2011, voters in Washington approved Initiative 1183, which dismantled the state-operated retailing system and removed the legal requirement for a three-tier distribution system for alcoholic beverage sales. Under the modified law, the prior state-operated liquor retailing system was eliminated in favor of heavily taxed private retailing. By a substantial margin, Washington has the highest liquor tax rate in the nation. With a liquor tax rate around $35 per gallon, its liquor tax is about 50% higher than in Oregon, which has the next highest rate. In Washington, retailers may bypass distributors by purchasing directly from producers, may negotiate volume discounts, and may warehouse their inventory themselves. Private retailing began on June 1, 2012. Although private retailing should increase competition in principle, in many cases producers have entered into exclusive marketing agreements with distributors for the market region, to the extent that each brand is often only available from a single distributor in the state (although large retailers such as Costco have been able to take some advantage of the law and in some cases have introduced their own house brands). Contrary to the fears of some in the political process, the number of drunk-driving arrests and alcohol-related motor vehicle accidents actually dropped in the year after the conversion to the new system.

A different type of exception to the three-tier system existed in Oklahoma prior to October 2018, where laws historically mandated a four-tier system for package sales of beer of greater than 3.2% alcohol by weight (4.0% by volume). Brewers in that state were historically prohibited from selling to distributors; they instead were required to sell to brokers, who in turn would sell to distributors. Following the passage of a voter referendum in 2016, the broker and distributor levels were effectively merged effective on October 1, 2018, resulting in the three-tier system common to the rest of the U.S.

Disputes and criticisms
Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America (WSWA), an influential trade organization and lobby group based in Washington, D.C. that works to oppose initiatives to alter the three-tier model, contends that wholesalers not only sell alcohol but also perform state functions and are in the business of encouraging social responsibility concerning alcohol.

The National Association of Wine Retailers represents the wine retail industry, advocating for the free movement of wine across state lines.

Use in other markets
A similar use of a three-tier system is enforced for tobacco products in some jurisdictions. In June 2017, tobacco wholesalers proposed that the three-tier system also be imposed for recreational marijuana in Massachusetts. They argued that this would improve tax collection enforcement.

There is no direct equivalent in the United Kingdom, occasioning criticism whereby large distributors (such as supermarkets, etc.) may squeeze local, independent beer retailers.