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Île-de-France

The Île-de-France (, ; lit. 'Island of France') is the most populous of the eighteen regions of France, with an official estimated population of 12,271,794 residents on 1 January 2023. Centred on the capital Paris, it is located in the north-central part of the country and often called the Paris Region (Région parisienne, ). Île-de-France is densely populated and retains a prime economic position on the national stage, but it covers only 12012 km2, about 2% of metropolitan French territory. Its 2017 population was nearly one-fifth of the national total.

The region is made up of eight administrative departments: Paris, Essonne, Hauts-de-Seine, Seine-Saint-Denis, Seine-et-Marne, Val-de-Marne, Val-d'Oise and Yvelines. It was created as the "District of the Paris Region" in 1961. In 1976, when its status was aligned with the French administrative regions created in 1972, it was renamed after the historic province of Île-de-France. Residents are sometimes referred to as Franciliens, an administrative word created in the 1980s. The GDP of the region in 2019 was nearly one-third of the French, and 5% of the European Union's. It has the highest per capita GDP of any French region.

Beyond the city limits of Paris, the region has many other important historic sites, including the palaces of Versailles and Fontainebleau, as well as the most-visited tourist attraction in France, Disneyland Paris. Although it is the richest French region, a significant number of residents live in poverty. The official poverty rate in the Île-de-France was 15.9% in 2015. The region has witnessed increasing income inequality in recent decades, and rising housing prices have pushed the less affluent outside Paris.

Etymology
Although the modern name Île-de-France literally means Island of France, its etymology is unclear. The "island" may refer to the land between the rivers Oise, Marne and Seine, or it may also have been a reference to the Île de la Cité, where the French royal palace and cathedral were located.

Alternatively, the name may refer to the lands that were under the direct rule of the Capetian kings during the Middle Ages; thus, the lands were an "island" in a sea of various feudal territories ruled by vassals of the king.

History
The Île-de-France was inhabited by the Parisii, a sub-tribe of the Celtic Senones, from around the middle of the 3rd-century BC. One of the area's major north–south trade routes crossed the Seine on the île de la Cité; the meeting place of land and water trade routes gradually became an important trading centre. The Parisii traded with many river towns (some as far away as the Iberian Peninsula) and minted their own coins for that purpose.

The Romans conquered the area in 52 BC and began their settlement on Paris's Left Bank. It became a prosperous city with a forum, baths, temples, theatres, and an amphitheatre. Christianity was introduced in the middle of the 3rd century AD by Saint Denis, the first Bishop of Paris. According to legend, when Denis refused to renounce his faith before Roman authorities, he was beheaded on the hill that became known as Mons Martyrum (Latin "Hill of Martyrs"), later "Montmartre". The legend further states that Denis walked headless from this hill to the north of the city. The place that he finally fell and was buried became an important religious shrine, the Basilica of Saint-Denis.

Clovis the Frank, the first king of the Merovingian dynasty, made the city his capital in 508. As the Frankish domination of Gaul began, there was a gradual immigration by the Franks to Paris and the Parisian Francien dialects were born. Fortification of the Île de la Cité failed to avert sacking by Vikings in 845, but Paris's strategic importance—with its bridges preventing ships from passing—was established by successful defence in the Siege of Paris (885–86). In 987, Hugh Capet, Count of Paris (comte de Paris) and Duke of the Franks (duc des Francs), was elected King of the Franks (roi des Francs). Under the rule of the Capetian kings, Paris gradually became the largest and most prosperous city in France.

The Kings of France enjoyed getting away from Paris and hunting in the game-filled forests of the region. They built palatial hunting lodges, most notably Palace of Fontainebleau and the Palace of Versailles. From the time of Louis XIV to the French Revolution, Versailles was the official residence of the Kings and the seat of the French government. Île-de-France became the term used for the territory of Paris and the surrounding province, which was administered directly by the King.

During the French Revolution, the royal provinces were abolished and divided into departments, and the city and region were governed directly by the national government. After World War II, as Paris faced a major housing shortage, hundreds of massive apartment blocks for low-income residents were built around the edges of Paris. In the 1950s and the 1960s, thousands of immigrants settled in the communes bordering the city. In 1959, under President Charles De Gaulle, a new region was created out of six departments, which corresponded approximately with the historic region, with the name District de la région de Paris ("District of the Paris Region"). On 6 May 1976, as part of the process of regionalisation, the district was reconstituted with increased administrative and political powers and renamed the Île-de-France region.

Geography
Île-de-France is in the north of France, neighboring Hauts-de-France to the north, Grand Est to the east, Bourgogne-Franche-Comté to the southeast, Centre-Val-de-Loire to the southwest, and Normandy to the west.

Departments
Île-de-France has a land area of 12011 km2. It is composed of eight departments centred on its innermost department and capital, Paris. Around the department and municipality of Paris, urbanisation fills a first concentric ring of three departments commonly known as the petite couronne ("small ring"); it extends into a second outer ring of four departments known as the grande couronne ("large ring"). The former department of Seine, abolished in 1968, included the city proper and parts of the petite couronne.

The petite couronne consists of the departments of Hauts-de-Seine, Seine-Saint-Denis and Val-de-Marne; the grande couronne consists of those of Seine-et-Marne, Yvelines, Essonne and Val-d'Oise. Politically, the region is divided into 8 departments, 25 arrondissements, 155 cantons and 1,276 communes, out of the total of 35,416 in metropolitan France.

Topography
The outer parts of the Île-de-France remain largely rural. Agricultural land, forest and natural spaces occupy 78.9 percent of the region, and 28 percent of the region's land is in urban use.

The River Seine flows through the middle of the region, which is crisscrossed by its tributaries and sub-tributaries, including the Rivers Marne, Oise and Epte. The River Eure does not cross the region but receives water from several rivers in the Île-de-France, including the Drouette and the Vesgre. The major rivers are navigable, and, because of the modest variations of altitude in the region (between 10 m and 200 m), they have a tendency to meander and curve. They also create many lakes and ponds, some of which have been transformed into recreation areas, including Moisson-Mousseaux, Cergy-Neuville and Villeneuve-Saint-Georges.

Economy

Paris region (Île-de-France) produced €742 billion (Gross domestic product) or around 1/3 of the economy of France in 2019.

The regional economy has gradually shifted toward high-value-added service industries (finance, IT services, etc.) and high-tech manufacturing (electronics, optics, aerospace, etc.). In 2014, industry represented just under five percent of active enterprises in the region, and 10.2 percent of salaried workers. Commerce and services account for 84 percent of the business establishments in the region, and have 83.3 percent of the salaried employees.

Financial services and insurance are important sectors of the regional economy; the major French banks and insurance companies, including BNP Paribas, Société Générale, and Crédit Agricole, all have their headquarters in the region. The region also hosts the headquarters of the top French telecom companies and utilities, including Orange S.A., Veolia, and EDF. The French stock market, the Bourse de Paris, now known as Euronext Paris, occupies a historical building in the center of Paris and is ranked fourth among global stock markets, after New York, Tokyo and London.

Other major sectors of the regional economy include energy companies (Orano, Engie, Électricité de France, and Total S.A.). The two major French automobile manufacturers, Renault at Flins-sur-Seine and Groupe PSA at Poissy, do much of their assembly work outside of France but still have research centre and large plants in the region. The leading French and European aerospace and defense companies, including Airbus, Thales Group, Dassault Aviation, Safran Aircraft Engines, the European Space Agency, Alcatel-Lucent, and Arianespace, have a large presence in the region.

The energy sector is also well established in the region. The nuclear power industry, with its major firm Orano, has its headquarters in Île-de-France, as does the main French oil company Total S.A., the top French company in the Fortune Global 500, and the main electric utility, Électricité de France. The energy firm Engie also has its main offices in the region at La Défense.

Employment
In 2018 just 7.2 percent of employees in the region were engaged in industry; 62.3 percent were engaged in commerce and market services; 25.5 percent in non-market services, including government, health and education; 4.8 percent in construction; and 0.2 percent in agriculture.

The largest non-government employers in the region as of the end of 2015 were the airline Air France (40,657); the SNCF (French Railways, 31,955); the telecom firm Orange S.A. (31,497); the bank Société Générale (27,361); the automotive firm Groupe PSA (19,648); EDF (Electricité de France, 18,199); and Renault (18,136). While the Petite Couronne, or departments closest to Paris, previously employed the most industrial workers, the largest number is now in the Grande Couronne, the outer departments.

The unemployment rate in the region stood at 8.6% at the end of 2016. It varied within the region from 7.8 percent in the city of Paris, to a high of 12.7 percent in Seine-Saint-Denis, and 10 percent in Val-d'Oise; to regional lows of 7.4 percent in Yvelines; 7.5 percent in Hauts-de-Seine; 7.7 percent in Essonne; 7.9 percent in Seine et Marne, and 8.8 percent in Val de Marne.

Agriculture
In 2018, 48 percent of the land of the Île-de-France was devoted to agriculture; 569,000 hectares were cultivated. The most important crops are grains (66 percent), followed by beets (7 percent), largely for industrial use, and grass for grazing. In 2014, 9,495 hectares were devoted to bio-agriculture. However, the number of persons employed in agriculture in the region dropped 33 percent between 2000 and 2015 to just 8,460 persons in 2015.

Tourism
The Île-de-France is one of the world's top tourist destinations, with a record 23.6 million hotel arrivals in 2017, and an estimated 50 million visitors in all types of accommodation. The largest number of visitors came from the United States, followed by England, Germany and China. The top tourist attraction in the region in 2017 was Disneyland Paris, which received 14.8 million visitors in 2017, followed by the Cathedral of Notre-Dame (est. 12 million) and the Basilica of Sacre-Coeur at Montmartre (est. 11.1 million visitors).

Notable historic monuments in the Region outside of Paris include the Palace of Versailles (7,700,000 visitors), the Palace of Fontainebleau (500,000 visitors), the chateau of Vaux-le-Vicomte (300,000 visitors), and the Château de Malmaison, Napoleon's former country house; and the Basilica of Saint-Denis, where the Kings of France were interred before the French Revolution.

Regional government and politics
The Regional Council is the legislative body of the region. Its seat is in Saint-Ouen-sur-Seine, at 2 rue Simone-Veil. On 15 December 2015, a list of candidates of the Union of the Right, a coalition of centrist and right-wing parties, led by Valérie Pécresse, narrowly won the regional election, defeating the Union of the Left, a coalition of socialists and ecologists. The socialists had governed the region for the preceding 17 years.

Since 2016 the regional council has 121 members from the Union of the Right, 66 from the Union of the Left and 22 from the far-right National Front.

Holders of the executive office

 * Delegates General for the District of the Paris Region
 * 1961–1969: Paul Delouvrier (civil servant) – Very influential term. Responsible for the creation of the RER express subway network in the Île-de-France and beyond.
 * 1969–1975: Maurice Doublet (civil servant)
 * 1975–1976: Lucien Lanier (civil servant)
 * Presidents of the Regional Council of Île-de-France
 * 1976–1988: Michel Giraud (RPR politician) – (1st time)
 * 1988–1992: Pierre-Charles Krieg (RPR politician)
 * 1992–1998: Michel Giraud (RPR politician) – (2nd time)
 * 1998–2015: Jean-Paul Huchon (PS)
 * 2016– Valérie Pécresse (Union of the Centre-Right)

Population density
, the population density of the region was 1010.9 inhabitants per square kilometer. The densest department is Paris itself, with 21,066 inhabitants per square kilometer. The least dense département is Seine-et-Marne with 239 residents per square kilometer.

Wealth and poverty
according to the official government statistics agency INSEE, 15.9 percent of residents of the region had an income below the poverty level; for residents of the city of Paris, this proportion was 16.2 percent. Poverty was highest in the departments of Seine-Saint-Denis (29 percent), Val-d'Oise (17.1 percent), and Val-de-Marne (16.8 percent). It was lowest in Yvelines (9.7 percent); Seine-et-Marne (11.8 percent), Essonne (12.9 percent), and Hauts-de-Seine (12.4 percent). The department of Hauts-de-Seine is the wealthiest in France in terms of per capita GDP.

Immigration
At the 2019 census, 75.1% of the inhabitants of Île-de-France were natives of Metropolitan France, 1.7% were born in Overseas France, and 23.1% were born in foreign countries. A quarter of the immigrants living in the Île-de-France were born in Europe (38% of whom in Portugal), 29% were born in the Maghreb and 22% in the rest of Africa (in particular West and Central Africa), 3% were born in Turkey and 15% in the rest of Asia, 5% were born in the Americas (not counting those born in the French overseas departments in the Americas, who are not legally immigrants), and 0.1% in Oceania (not counting those born in the French territories of the South Pacific, who are not legally immigrants).

In 2013, roughly 2,206,000 residents of the Île-de-France were immigrants, born outside of France. This amounted to 18.5% of the population of the region, twice the national average. Four out of ten immigrants living in France reside in the region. The immigrant population of the Île-de-France has a higher proportion of non-Europeans, as well as a higher proportion of immigrants with an advanced level of education, than the rest of France. The population of immigrants is more widely distributed throughout the region than it was in the early 2000s, but the concentrations remain high in certain areas, particularly Paris and the department of Seine-Saint-Denis. The proportion of residents born outside of Metropolitan France rose between the 1999 (19.7%) and 2019 censuses (24.9%).

Petite Couronne

The Petite Couronne (literally "Little Crown" or inner ring) is formed by the three departments bordering Paris, forming a geographical crown around it. These departments, until 1968 part of the disbanded Seine department, are Hauts-de-Seine, Seine-Saint-Denis and Val-de-Marne. The most populated towns of the Petite Couronne are Boulogne-Billancourt, Montreuil, Saint-Denis, Nanterre and Créteil.

The Métropole du Grand Paris is an administrative structure that comprises Paris and the three departments of the Petite Couronne, plus seven additional communes in the Grande Couronne.

The table below shows some statistical information about the area including Paris:

Grande Couronne
The Grande Couronne (Large Crown, i.e. outer ring) includes the outer four departments of Île-de-France not bordering Paris. They are Seine-et-Marne (77), Yvelines (78), Essonne (91) and Val-d'Oise (95). The last three departments formed the Seine-et-Oise department until this was disbanded in 1968. The city of Versailles is part of this area.

Twin regions
Île-de-France is twinned with:
 * 🇪🇸 Comunidad de Madrid in Spain (since 2000)
 * 🇦🇲 Yerevan in Armenia (since 2011)
 * Hanoi in Vietnam (since 2013)

title: Île-de-France


text:
Category talk:Cultural magazines

What does "cultural" mean here? FreplySpang (talk) 00:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Good question, what does it mean in this context? A couple of gaming magazines just got sorted into, and I'm going to need an explanation before I can tell if it's at all justified. I'm thinking they got caught up in a net by someone who doesn't know what they are. Or, it might just that I don't know what this is... but with a lack of other gaming magazines that I can see here, I doubt it. --Rindis 23:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category talk:Cultural magazines


text:
Talk:Michelle Bachelet

Her first name
If her first name is Veronica, why doesn't she uses that name? is it because Michelle it's more of a white European name?, or is it because she feels she would be discriminated by her Spnish name?, I'm a Chilean and for all I know we call ourselves by our first name.190.47.248.51 (talk) 21:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know man, I'm chilean as well and everybody calls me by my second "first name". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.160.68.57 (talk) 22:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Just FYI, she answered that question in an interview... Michelle was the name preferred by her mother while Veronica was the name preferred by her father. Before she was born, both decided to call her Michelle but when her father went to register her, she put the name "Veronica Michelle" as a kind of joke. But in her family, she was always called just Michelle. And although the first name is the most usual to call someone, there are a lot of people called by their middle name... just like Miguel Juan Sebastián Piñera Echeñique. --B1mbo (talk) 02:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Style
Although well-written, this article makes excessive use of EM dashes, giving it a more journalistic appearance. I have replaced 2 or 3 of the least appropriate pairs of EM dashes, where commas or parentheses,, would be quite adequate and less dramatic. For the remaining EM dashes, spaces before and after each one might prove more aesthetic (and probably more effective) than the single spaces offered here. Ombudswiki (talk) 15:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

End of presidency
The article does not explain why Michelle Bachelet's presidency ended. Her name is not even on the Chilean presidential election, 2009–2010 article other than as the Previous President implying she did not attempt to retain the seat. Was she termed out? If not or did she chose not to run? --Marc Kupper|talk 18:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Eduardo Frei Ruiz-Tagle was the Concertacion candidate. A President of Chile may not be re-elected immediately (without a break). Rd232 talk 19:06, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The article now explains why she left office in 2010. Dominic's Fire (talk) 21:36, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I'm not sure why someone immediately reverted the edit explaining why she left office. I restored that though then then removed the sentence about that it is unknown if she'll run again. That sentence seemed unenclyclopediac. It would work if a reliable source can be found where someone asked if she plans to run and then we can source her response. --Marc Kupper|talk 23:30, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Peacock?
An IP user tagged this article as having Peacock words back in May 2010. Can we find any specific examples and remove/ref them? - Ruodyssey (talk) 11:13, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I was wondering the same thing. And it looks like it is the same IP that added a poorly written criticism section with no sources.
 * I suggest we remove the template and let the IP point out here on the talk page, what's wrong with the article.
 * Likeminas (talk) 16:05, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Earthquake and Tsunami 27 Feb 2010
I am SURPRISED there is nothing in this article about the earthquake that hit a couple of weeks before she was to leave office. More so because her neglect to have sounded the alarm caused hundreds of people to die when a tsunami hit the coastline. There are currently criminal proceedings against her in Chile by these victim's families. It is also controversial because she is said to be receiving special treatment and not questioned formally or according to law by the fiscal (equivalent to the US's term D.A.).

There are other significant controversial events that occurred during her presidency that are not introduced in this article... it tends to dodge and pain an unrealistic picture instead of a unbiast real one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.71.220.91 (talk) 16:40, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Hodge-podge
The presidency overview is a hopeless hodge-podge in which the important and lasting contributions of Bachelet's government are drowned in all sorts of insignificant detail, with far too much attention being paid to the vagaries of the highly-politicized Chilean media.77.162.130.139 (talk) 23:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It needs more structure. Will do when I have the time. Pristino (talk) 19:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Tell me what you think. Pristino (talk) 02:08, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

19 December 2013
I made the most recent two edits; didn't realize I had logged myself out. Sorry. Quis separabit? 23:37, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

cabinet
we should use Template:Infobox Chile Cabinet here, rather than Template:Infobox cabinet directly, since the former introduces more uniformity across Chilean president articles. Frietjes (talk) 15:20, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comments
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:57, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

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Language skills
Her extraordinary language skills cited in the article are not trustwothy as souces are organizations to which she have links. These organizations (Chilean goverment, UN) have probably recieved her CV and have an interest in protraying her in a possitive light. We need some scrutiny into this. Dentren |  Ta lk  00:47, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Opening up this conversation again, I completely agree with User:Dentren. I have came up with the conclusion that Bachelet is unable to speak French.

Regards, DoctorSpeed  ✉ ✨
 * [|An Interview in French] (Bachelet evidently receives a translation of each of the interviewer's questions. Additionally, she does not speak any French throughout the interview. Also, if she can at least recognize French, she would not have paused in between questions to receive the Spanish translation of the interviewer's question).
 * [|Interactions with the French President] (Bachelet also does not even speak with the President of France despite her alleged language abilities. Other Latin American presidents that have some knowledge of French such as Pedro Pablo Kuczynski have been seen on camera speaking French with the President of France.)
 * [|French Press Conference] (Again, no French).

Could we lose the "discuss" here? Once you ditch the French (which no longer seems to be mentioned in the page) she would have German skills from living in Germany, and Portuguese skills are relatively easy for a native Spanish speaker. I can read Portuguese fairly easily thanks to my Spanish and French ... although I cannot speak it. Rob Harland — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.42.185.13 (talk) 06:08, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Lodges / Masons?
Mrs Brachelet is a frequent guest in masonic lodges - is she part of the brotherhood? Sources: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FJVqwV4DIY and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlSigVxPoJQ and https://vimeo.com/214027398 and many more - simply ask google: "bachelet Gran Logia de Chile" - a membership or affinity of a high commissioner of UN is relevant, isn't it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.129.198 (talk) 03:02, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:UGC is not a WP:RS. Zazpot (talk) 04:19, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Repeated Deletions in UN Human Rights High Commissioner Section
It seems strange that I need to start a new talk topic over a mundane matter, but here we are. A user is repeatedly deleting well-sourced, reliable, and important material related to Bachelet's time as UN Human Rights High Commissioner. The user has not articulated their rationale clearly, and I invite them to do so here.

The result of the user's deletions is that the article mentions Bachelet's visit to China, then skips right to organizations that condemned the visit, without saying what Bachelet concluded on the visit. This makes no sense.

The user has deleted my quotations from Bachelet's statements following the visit, but would retain the criticism of her visit. This creates problems with WP:POV and is also just plain confusing.

The user has also repeatedly deleted Bachelet's statement urging an investigation into Israel's alleged killing of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh.

I will restore the deleted portions, but please - do not make these categorical deletions again. Please explain your grounds in good faith here instead. JArthur1984 (talk) 20:36, 21 June 2022 (UTC)JArthur1984

- as I’ve explained on multiple occasions the content that you are including is cherry picked and lacks independent sourcing unlike the criticisms of her visit which is why I retained them. The fact that you personally think a certain portion of a statement that she personally made through an office which she personally heads is important is not a reason for including it into the page and doing so would by your own standards violate wp:pov. Per wp:onus which says “the onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content”, stop reinstating your edit until a resolution on this dispute has been arrived at. Thundercloss (talk) 23:58, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

 * These statements are Bachelet's own, and not cherry-picked. What do you believe is missing from her statement, that you would like included? Your remedy is not wholesale deletion, you should add what you think is necessary. The source you are quibbling with is the UN's own website. It is a reliable and verifiable source for the proposition that Bachelet said what Bachelet said.
 * I have more than satisfied WP:ONUS by articulating the reason for inclusion in my prior comment, but you continue to repeat "cherry-picked" without pointing to something specific. It's your burden to respond with specificity.
 * You have not responded to my observation about how confusing this is following your repeat edits. Right now the article says Bachelet visited China. Then it says some organizations criticized her. There is no context for this.
 * Your statement about POV doesn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate? The reason I think her statements are important is the rationale described above -- if it was important to mention her China visit in the article, and important to mention she was criticized for it, it is also important to explain what positions she took following the visit, and statements she made following the visit.
 * It is plainly appropriate to quote Bachelet herself (this is the Bachelet article!) just as she is appropriately quoted elsewhere in the section, for example, regarding Hong Kong. You have not deleted that quote (nor do I think you should) but my approach here is completely in line with the rest of the article, the policies, and common sense.  JArthur1984 (talk) 00:54, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I have now revised this discussion in the article anyway. Although quoting Bachelet's statement from the UN's website seems perfectly correct to me, I would like to end the back and forth and therefore have used different sources and revised some of the wording. JArthur1984 (talk) 01:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the revisions following my revision noted above show why the original approach -- directly quoting the UN version of Bachelet's statement -- was actually best. Recent revisions made this section read, in essence, China said Bachelet said X (citing a secondary source). Then The UN said nothing could be construed as X (citing a secondary). Well what did Bachelet actually say? This is part of why I always preferred citing Bachelet's statement from the UN website itself. JArthur1984 (talk) 12:54, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
 * any content which draws on primary sources (the UN version of Bachelet’s statement in this case) needs to be accompanied by independent sourcing to establish notability. Otherwise this article and countless others would end up as little more than a propaganda piece for its subject. As wp:onus points out, “not all verifiable information must be included” and the information that you are trying to add would certainly fall under that proscription Thundercloss (talk) 16:01, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
 * As WP:Tendentious editing points out, "There is no rule on Wikipedia that someone has to get permission from you before they put cited information in an article. Such a rule would clearly contradict Be bold."
 * Here, you are repeatedly deleting edits not just by me, but also @Fiwec81618. In contrast, there is no consensus for your deletions.
 * You take issue with the primary source of Bachelet's UN statement in a Bachelet article (in reference to the China visit). You now say you do not agree Bachelet's UN statement is notable. But your own additions include two citations talking about Bachelet's UN statement. How can you argue that Bachelet's UN statement is not notable when you added two sources that discuss it?
 * Keep in mind: I attempted to resolve these differing views by going to secondary newspaper sources instead of directly citing the UN statement (I continue to believe that would be preferable). I only added a further reference to the UN statement because of your edits introducing the 'China said/UN said' minor controversy involving her statement. If we're going to talk about that minor controversy, why would we not cite the statement itself, in addition to people arguing about what the statement was?
 * Also, among your repeat deletions is her statement at the summer session calling for an investigation into Israel's alleged killing of a journalist commenting on the culture of impunity. You have not articulated a rationale for this. The citation there was a secondary newspaper source as well.
 * Please chill and engage with the substance of the issues. Add accurate and verifiable information if you feel it necessary. But the things you keep deleting are entirely correct and appropriate. JArthur1984 (talk) 16:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
 * the notability and independent sourcing issues go hand in hand, i never said or implied that they were separate things as you are insinuating. My edits involving Bachelet’s statements draw on independent sources, unlike the primary sources that you are using to cite cherry picked content in order to (ironically) advance a highly tendentious interpretation of what she said. As for her “impunity” quote, it is an anachronism as I pointed out in one of my edits earlier and that is why I removed it. Per wp:onus stop reinstating your edit until a resolution on this dispute has been arrived at.Thundercloss (talk) 16:58, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
 * But this is what you are not responding to -- you repeat words like "cherry-picked."
 * (1) As I asked some time ago, "What do you believe is missing from her statement, that you would like included?" You continue not to respond to this point.
 * (2) I also have to ask again: "[Y[our own additions include two citations talking about Bachelet's UN statement. How can you argue that Bachelet's UN statement is not notable when you added two sources that discuss it?"
 * (3) Let me also ask again, given your edits adding the China-said/UN-said controversy, "If we're going to talk about that minor controversy, why would we not cite the statement itself, in addition to people arguing about what the statement was?"
 * (4) Develop your point about "culture of impunity" is an "anachronism." Do you mean some word other than "anachronism?" I have no idea how this would apply.
 * (5) What is the "highly tendentious interpretation" you believe is being advanced?
 * (6) What do you mean by "the notability and independent sourcing issues go hand-in-hand"?
 * I think it is important to remember that this is the Bachelet article. This may be especially important with regard to your view of (5). This is the Bachelet article. What is significant here from an encyclopedic standpoint is Bachelet's actions, Bachelet's positions, and Bachelet 's statements. Bachelet's views may reflect one view of many possible subjects, but this is not the article for any particular controversy, it is the Bachelet article.
 * Onus is more than satisfied here. Your deletions are against the consensus to date. I have laid out the rationale. I have asked you specific questions about your view, which you have not answered. ""There is no rule on Wikipedia that someone has to get permission from you before they put cited information in an article. Such a rule would clearly contradict Be bold." JArthur1984 (talk) 17:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
 * this is really, really simple. If you want to use content which draws on primary sources (in this case, anything from the UN because that is who Bachelet works for) then it needs to be accompanied by independent sourcing. if you pretended to pay attention to the edits I’ve made then you would have noticed that I retained the other information you included because you provided independent sourcing for them. You not being able to do so for this particular quote does not then give you the right to start circumventing the rules. Put those sources in or your information stays out.Thundercloss (talk) 18:39, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You are attempting to impose a non-existent requirement ("If you want to use content which draws on primary sources (in this case, anything from the UN because that is who Bachelet works for) then it needs to be accompanied by independent sourcing."). That is not a Wikipedia policy.
 * Contrary to your view, the policy is that "Primary sources can be reliable, and they can be used. Sometimes, a primary source is even the best possible source, such as when you are supporting a direct quotation. In such cases, the original document is the best source because the original document will be free of any errors or misquotations introduced by subsequent sources." WP:Identifying_and_using_primary_sources. This is why you keep seeing me emphasize that this is the Bachelet article. This is an article which, because it is focused on Bachelet 's views, means that "the original document is the best source because the original document will be free of any errors or misquotations introduced by subsequent sources" as per the primary source policies. This is also why before your repeat deletions, I just quoted Bachelet's statement as it is published to the world on the UN's website. There can be no doubt that the UN statement is legitimate and verifiable.
 * Although I have engaged with your views, you have not engaged with mine. And you continue to make the "culture of impunity" deletion even though that was a secondary source and your complaints are about primary sources. You cannot dictate (as you propose to do when you write, "Put those sources in or your information stays out."). This is supposed to be a consensus-based, encyclopedia building project. Your choice not to engage with the substance runs counter to the philosophy of Wikipedia.
 * Even though I think this approach is unnecessarily cumbersome when we could just be quoting Bachelet's statement directly, I have now replaced the primary source with a citation to a source you have cited for another proposition. So: please let this be.
 * I still do not understand your argument that "culture of impunity" is an "anachronism" but I have chosen a different quotation anyway to illustrate the point, once again using a secondary source. JArthur1984 (talk) 20:46, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
 * No, primary sources do not always need to be accompanied by independent sourcing. As JArthur1984 has noted,
 * WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD: Primary sources can be reliable, and they can be used.
 * WP:PRIMARYCARE: However, primary sources may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person—with access to the source but without specialist knowledge—will be able to verify are directly supported by the source.
 * The earlier additions by JArthur1984 sourced from the UN satisfied these criteria. While it's reasonable to disagree on what exactly to include from the primary source in this case, it's not reasonable to say that Wikipedia policy disallows inclusion of material from primary sources just because they are primary sources. In any case, the material has been replaced with material source to NYT, so this discussion seems to be moot.
 * Also, please respect WP:3RR. Fiwec81618 (talk) 03:23, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm troubled that after all of this back and forth, Thundercloss again revised to de-emphasize information I added, which suggests to me (along with the failure to answer my specific questions) that the issue was never about the primary or secondary sources at all.
 * Why don't we revert to the primary source of her statement and then include whatever notable criticisms or responses came from secondary sources, in a separate paragraph?
 * It is currently much clunkier than my original attempt to update the article with the result of Bachelet's China visit and her resignation. Which was, at 00:41 on 15 June 2022:
 * "Bachelet's visit to Xinjiang in May 2022 was the first time in 17 years that a UN high commissioner for human rights had travelled to China. Bachelet's statement following the visit praised China's "[p]overty alleviation and the eradication of extreme poverty, 10 years ahead of its target date" as "tremendous achievements," noting also that China's "introduction of universal health care and almost universal unemployment insurance scheme go a long way in ensuring protection of the right to health and broader social and economic rights." Bachelet noted that in Xinjiang she "raised questions and concerns about the application of counter-terrorism and de-radicalisation measures and their broad application – particularly their impact on the rights of Uyghurs and other predominantly Muslim minorities" and that "the Government assured me that the [Vocational and Educational Training Center] system has been dismantled." She also "encouraged the Government to undertake a review of all counter terrorism and deradicalization policies to ensure they fully comply with international human rights standards, and in particular that they are not applied in an arbitrary and discriminatory way." The visit was criticized by human rights organizations such as Amnesty International, the Campaign for Uyghurs, and the World Uyghur Congress. Editorial boards of The Guardian and The Washington Post also criticized the visit.
 * On June 13, 2022, Bachelet announced that she would not seek a second term as UN High Commissioner on Human Rights following the expiration of her current term on August 31, 2022. Her decision is consistent with most of her predecessors in the politically pressured position, who have typically not sought second terms. In her final brief at the UN's summer session, Bachelet called for investigation into Israel's alleged killing of journalist Shireen Abu Akleeh, observing that "[t]he prevailing climate of impunity is fueling further violence and violations[.]” JArthur1984 (talk) 15:40, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * the main issue was never about the sourcing. It was always about the weight being placed on the material and is an observation which appears to be well rooted in policy (wp:weight). This was my rationale for insisting right at the start that “establishing notability” through independent sourcing was the metric by which publishing authorization for the content you want included from the primary source (the OHCHR statement) should be made. Your latest suggestion of reverting back to your original edit and approach of using cherry picked statements from a primary source which lacks substantiation from independent sources in order to advance a highly tendentious view of things does the exact opposite of that Thundercloss (talk) 19:09, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * After waiting a while for any other perspectives and seeing the Issues Involving Thundercloss on the admin noticeboard, I am extremely comfortable in returning to an inclusion of the primary source material quotes from Bachelet's own statements.
 * Thundercloss, I have left most of your additions in place, although I have consolidated the China state media/Bloomberg controversy in an effort to make the discussion more straightforward. Although you never did answer my questions about what you think needed to be added to avoid "cherry-picking," why don't you also add any remaining excerpts you think necessary, without deleting. JArthur1984 (talk) 22:06, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * no you haven’t, you’ve done the complete opposite. You’ve removed all the criticisms against her speech while at the same time quoting-at-length those parts that you like. You framing your synthesis of the material concerning the interview between Bachelet and Xi as “making the discussion more straightforward” is really about trying to minimize criticism of the Chinese state media’s readout of the interview as described by the sources. I will remind you once again of wp:onus which says “the onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content” Thundercloss (talk) 19:31, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You're incorrect. I did not remove the criticisms of her statement, they're there: "Bachelet’s visit was criticized by organizations such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the Campaign for Uyghurs, and the World Uyghur Congress. Editorial boards of The Guardian and The Washington Post also criticized the visit. The New York Times said Bachelet’s description of the situation in Xinjiang was “couched in the language of the Chinese government” and the executive director of Human Rights Watch Kenneth Roth was critical of Bachelet’s use of Chinese government terminology to describe the detention camps."
 * Once again, there is consensus for my approach. In fact when ARoseWolf added to the consensus, you made an unpleasant remark to them ("you obviously haven't read the discussions above if that's what you really think."). JArthur1984 (talk) 21:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The consensus that you are referring to is fiction. You don’t have consensus for your improper synthesis of the Bachelet interview, for removing the criticisms of the speech from the related paragraph and for both your choice of cherry picked quotations and your sentence-long verbatim transcription of them into the main article. As a compromise I can let your quotations stay but they will have to be counterbalanced by material from other parts of statement and the prior criticisms of them which you improperly removed (in addition to reverting your improper synthesis of the material concerning the interview between Bachelet and Xi) If you object to these counterbalancing emendations, then your quotations will also have to go per npov Thundercloss (talk) 03:41, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I have made a series of changes to the section and I think the state that it is in right now is a compromise solution that should work. It meets your initial demand that all your quotations be reincluded while also meeting my demand to include counterbalancing material for your quotations. Of course this compromise solution does not preclude either one of us making any other edits which do not modify the reincluded quotations themselves. But as it pertains strictly to your request to reinclude your selected remarks from her UN statement, it has been fulfilled and I think it would be in the interest of both of us to consider this issue resolved Thundercloss (talk) 20:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

, I'm not at all opposed to the re-entry of the edit you wanted to include but can you explain the movement of the New York Times piece from where it was in the article to where it is now? What was the justification for that particular placement? -- A Rose Wolf  18:19, 29 June 2022 (UTC) Strike that. The diff had me looking at it odd like. I see no issue with what was re-added. -- A Rose Wolf  18:22, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * you obviously haven’t read the discussions above if that’s what you really think Thundercloss (talk) 19:31, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Michelle Bachelet


text:
Talk:Cylinder

Cylindric section equation source?
The equation for the semi-major axis a in the section Properties/Cylindric sections appears to be wrong. With the current definition, it would imply that the semi-major axis becomes infinite if the cylinder is aligned with the normal of the secant plane. If the equation is changed to a=r / cos(alpha), then the semi-major axis becomes the radius of the cylinder when the cylinder is normal to the plane. What is the source of this equation and is the equation for eccentricity also incorrect?Grumbins (talk) 04:53, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

definition?
Definition, does the parallell lines need to to be line segments of equal length?
 * Which parallel lines? Are you referring to §Cylindric sections?  In that case, the line segments would be be the height  $h$ of the cylinder. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:27, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

definition error
The introduction is wrong. Cylinders are not limited to objects having a surface that is "a fixed distance from the axis" [of the cylinder] - this applies only to a circular cylinder. Can the last author please fix this and any other inconsistencies.

Thanks,

2001:569:737B:AD00:D421:2F70:F52F:CCBE (talk) 18:39, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Typo? cylinder with arbitrary axis
i think this line: $$B =-x\cos(\theta)\sin(\phi)+y\sin(\theta)\cos(\phi)+z\cos(\phi)$$

should actually be: $$B =-x\cos(\theta)\sin(\phi)+y\sin(\theta)\sin(\phi)+z\cos(\phi)$$

Avi --185.46.212.75 (talk) 11:16, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Requested Move discussion in progress.
There is a discussion going on at the Talk Page for "Cylinder" to move that page to Cylinder (disambiguation). It is implicit in the proposal that this page would move to Cylinder, but that is not formally part of the proposal. You may want to participate in that discussion. --MrStoofer (talk) 11:10, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * As the move has been done, the (closed) discussion is now at Talk:Cylinder (disambiguation). D.Lazard (talk) 10:04, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Cylinder which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * As the move has been done, the (closed) discussion is now at Talk:Cylinder (disambiguation). D.Lazard (talk) 10:05, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

"Rod (geometry)" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Rod (geometry). The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 8 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. CiaPan (talk) 20:36, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

"Rod (shaft)" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Rod (shaft). The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 9 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Adumbrativus (talk) 06:09, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

The page Cylinder is incorrect.
According to James Tanton a cylinder is a made from creating a base shape on a plane, making a congruent shape on a parallel plane and connecting each edge/point to the corresponding edge/point on the other base. This is not the definition that is on the Cylinder page.

The source for this is: [Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS4xSytnAm8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS4xSytnAm8]

James Tanton also mentions this in his Geometry course, sold at: https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/geometry-an-interactive-journey-to-mastery. Pigly3 (talk) 01:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

 * There are several related concepts of 'cylinder' used in mathematics, and which one is more convenient depends on context. –jacobolus (t) 03:38, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Tanton's definition is equivalent to that of the article's first paragraph. —Tamfang (talk) 07:14, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect height designation in the figure
In the figure "A solid elliptic cylinder with the semi-axes..." height h indicates the length of the side of the cylinder, which is greater than the real height by 1/cos(φ) times, where φ is the angle of the cilinder axis to the normal to the base AAPoul (talk) 02:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

 * In this particular case, it's clear that the side of the cylinder is perpendicular to the base. This could perhaps be pictured/stated more clearly. –jacobolus (t) 06:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * [[file:Zylinder-schief-ellipt.png|thumb]]
 * The caption in the article says that it is an elliptic cylinder that is represented, but most readers will see a circular cylinder with oblique plane sections (that are therefore elliptic). So, the image is not well suited for illustrating the text, and is more confusing than useful. In commons, the only image that I have found that represents an elliptic cylinder is the one that is displayed here, but its labels do not correspond to this article. So, I'll edit the caption, but I am not very happy with this solution. D.Lazard (talk) 08:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cylinder


text: Category:Provisional constitutions

title: Category:Provisional constitutions


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cyndia Crawford

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was redirect to Yu-Gi-Oh! main characters. - Mailer Diablo 03:02, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cyndia Crawford
Yu-Gi-Ohcruft. DS 00:33, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete figured it might be notable, but Google gives only 51 hits. DDerby 01:37, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * did not realize the importance to the card game, or the relative coverage of the card game on this site. Merge and redirect, probably not significant enough to keep.DDerby 05:31, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete nothing to merge. --InShaneee 02:43, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and merge with Yu-Gi-Oh. Though this character might not be very notable, if it should be here, put it in an article that is not fancruft. Oklonia 02:53, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge or keep, she is quite key to the story, being the whole motivation for the main villain. Kappa 03:14, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect page to Yu-Gi-Oh! main characters, where it is redundant with Pegasus entry. — RJH 03:18, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect --Fuzzball! (talk) 04:10, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Yu-Gi-Oh! main characters. Also, the page didn't have a vfd notice, so I added it.
 * Oops, forgot to sign. Dave the Red (talk) 18:15, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, animecruft. Megan1967 06:12, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep important character from a very famous/popular cartoon & game(s) Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 14:37, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect CAPS LOCK
 * Keep - While not "important", certainly notable. --Irishpunktom\talk 13:36, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Yu-Gi-Oh! main characters. --Theo (Talk) 13:52, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Taira no Atsumori

Taira no Atsumori (平 敦盛) (1169–1184) was a samurai of the late Heian period of Japan. He was a member of the Taira clan (Heike) who fought in the Genpei War against the Minamoto (Genji).

He is mostly known for his early death at the Battle of Ichi-no-Tani and his appearance in the epic The Tale of the Heike, in which he was killed by the remorseful warrior Kumagai Naozane. He is also the subject of the famous Noh play Atsumori.

Career
Atsumori is a son of Taira no Tsunemori, a younger half-brother of the powerful lord Taira no Kiyomori.

Atsumori fought as a warrior during the Genpei War. At the age of either 15 or 16 he was killed in the Battle of Ichi-no-Tani. During the battle Atsumori engaged Kumagai Naozane, an ally of the Minamoto, and was killed. Kumagai had a son the same age as Atsumori. Kumagai's great remorse as told in The Tale of Heike, coupled with his taking of a monk's vows, caused this otherwise obscure event to become well known for its tragedy.

Battle of Ichi-no-Tani
According to The Tale of the Heike, the Taira were scattered by Yoshitsune's attack from the Ichi-no-Tani cliff. Kumagai no Jirō Naozane, while scanning the beach for fleeing soldiers, spotted the young Atsumori swimming towards the fleeing vessels.

Kumagai beckoned Atsumori with his fan, taunting Atsumori by saying, “I see that you are a commander-in-chief. It is dishonorable to show your back to an enemy. Return!”

Atsumori returned and they grappled on the beach. Kumagai was stronger. He knocked off Atsumori's helmet to deliver the finishing blow, only to be struck by the beauty of the young noble. Atsumori was “sixteen or seventeen years old, with a lightly powdered face and blackened teeth—a boy just the age of Naozane's own son...”

Kumagai, wishing to spare the boy, asked for Atsumori's name, but the youth refused. He simply said that he was famous enough that Kumagai's superiors would recognize his head when it was time to assign rewards. At that moment, other Minamoto warriors arrived, and Kumagai knew that if he did not kill Atsumori, the other warriors surely would. Kumagai reasoned that it was better if he was the one to kill Atsumori, because he could offer prayers on his behalf for the afterlife.

Kumagai while crying beheaded the youth. Searching the body for something to wrap the head in, he came across a bag containing a flute. He realized that Atsumori must have been one of the soldiers playing music before the battle and thought, “there are tens of thousands of riders in our eastern armies, but I am sure none of them has brought a flute to the battlefield. Those court nobles are refined men!”

It is said that the beheading of Atsumori is what led Kumagai to take priestly vows and become a Buddhist monk.

In other works
The Atsumori narrative became the subject of many subsequent works, including:

 * The Noh play, Atsumori, which follows Kumagai, now known as the Buddhist priest Renshō, as he speaks with and prays for the dead Atsumori.
 * The Bunraku puppet play, later adapted for Kabuki, Ichinotani Futaba Gunki.
 * A Narrative: Atsumori, which expands upon the Tales of the Heike version and includes a section where Kumagai personally returns the body of Atsumori to the Minamoto.
 * Little Atsumori, the tale of the resulting plight of Atsumori's wife and his yet unborn son.
 * The lesser-known Kabuki play Sakigake Genpei Tsutsuji (otherwise called Ogiya Kumagai, or Suma no Miyako Genpei Tsutsuji), where Atsumori hides his identity by dressing up as the girl Kohagi and working in a fan shop.
 * Atsumori, as a Kami, is a character in Wen Spencer's modern fantasy novel Eight Million Gods.

title: Taira no Atsumori


text:
HMS Guardian (1784)

HMS Guardian was a 44-gun Roebuck-class ship fifth-rate two-decker of the Royal Navy, later converted to carry stores. She was completed too late to take part in the American War of Independence, and instead spent several years laid up in ordinary, before finally entering service as a store and convict transport to Australia, under Lieutenant Edward Riou. In 1789 Riou sailed Guardian, loaded with provisions, animals, convicts and their overseers, to the Cape of Good Hope, where he took on more supplies. Nearly two weeks after his departure on the second leg of the journey, an iceberg was sighted and Riou sent boats to collect ice to replenish his water supplies. Before he could complete the re-provisioning, a sudden change in the weather obscured the iceberg, and Guardian collided with it while trying to pull away. She was badly damaged and in immediate danger of sinking. The crew made frantic repair attempts but to no apparent avail. Riou eventually allowed most of the crew to take to Guardian boats, but refused to leave his ship. Eventually through continuous work he and the remaining crew were able to navigate the ship, by now reduced to little more than a raft, back to the Cape, a nine-week voyage described as "almost unparalleled". Riou ran Guardian aground to prevent her sinking, but shortly afterwards a hurricane struck the coast, wrecking her. The remains were sold in 1791.

Construction and commissioning
She was ordered from Robert Batson, Limehouse on 11 August 1780 and was laid down in December that year. Guardian was launched on 23 March 1784, too late to see service in the American War of Independence and was instead fitted out at Deptford Dockyard for ordinary. The builder was paid GB£ 1784 for her construction, with the Admiralty paying another GB£4420 1784 to fit her out. After five years spent laid up she was fitted out at Woolwich in 1789 to serve as a store and convict transport, commissioning under Lieutenant Edward Riou in April.

Voyage to Australia
Riou was tasked with delivering the stores consisting of seeds, plants, farm machinery and livestock, with a total value of some GB£70000 1789, and convicts to the British settlement at Botany Bay. At least some of the plants and seeds were provided by Hugh Ronalds, a nurseryman in Brentford. Also aboard Guardian was a young midshipman named Thomas Pitt, the son of politician Thomas Pitt, and nephew of Prime Minister William Pitt.

With over 300 people aboard his ship, Riou left Spithead on 8 September, and had an uneventful voyage to the Cape of Good Hope, where he arrived on 24 November and loaded more livestock and plants. After completing his re-provisioning Riou sailed from the Cape in mid-December, and picking up the westerlies began the second leg of his voyage to New South Wales. On 24 December, twelve days and 1,300 statute miles (2100 km) after his departure from the Cape, a large iceberg was spotted at -44°N, 41°W, and Riou decided to use the ice to replenish his stocks of fresh water, that were quickly being depleted by the need to supply the plants and animals he was transporting.

Riou and the iceberg
Riou positioned himself near the iceberg, and despatched boats to collect the ice. By the time the last boats had been recovered night had fallen, when a sudden fogbank descended, hiding the iceberg from view. Riou found himself in a dangerous situation. Somewhere to leeward lay a large mass of ice, concealed in the darkness and fog. He posted lookouts in the bows and rigging, and began to edge slowly forward. After some time the danger seemed to be past, and the iceberg left behind, when at 9 o'clock a strange pale glow was reported by the lookout in the bows. Riou ordered the helm to turn hard a starboard, turning into the wind as a wall of ice higher than the ship's masts slid by along the side. It briefly appeared that the danger had been avoided, but as she passed by, Guardian struck an underwater projection with a sudden crash. Caught in a sudden gust of wind, the ship reared up and swung about, driving the stern into the ice, smashing away the rudder, shattering her stern frame and tearing a large gash in the hull. Despite the seriousness of the situation, Riou remained calm, using the sails to pull clear of the ice, and then taking stock of the damage.

Now clear of the immediate danger of the ice, Riou found himself in a desperate situation. There was 2 ft of water in the hold and more was rushing in, while the sea was rising and a gale had sprung up. The pumps were manned, but could not keep up with the ingress of water, and by midnight there was 6 ft of water in the hold. At dawn on 25 December, an attempt was made to fother the hull by lowering an oakum-packed studding sail over the side to cover the gash in the hull and slow the flooding. This was temporarily successful and by 11 o'clock the pumps had been able to reduce the water to a level of 19 in. The respite was short-lived, when the sail split under the pressure of the water and the water level began to rise again. At this a number of seaman requested permission to take to the ship's boats.

By nightfall on 25 December, the water in the hold had risen to 7 ft, and the ship was rolling violently, allowing water to pour over the ship's side. Riou ordered the stores, guns and livestock to be thrown overboard in an attempt to lighten the ship, but was injured when his hand was crushed by a falling cask while trying to clear the bread-room. By morning the next day the ship was settling by the stern, while the sails had been torn away in the gale. Again the seamen, this time joined by the convicts, requested to be allowed to take to the boats. Riou at last agreed to this, well aware that there were not enough boats for everyone, and announced "As for me, I have determined to remain in the ship, and shall endeavour to make my presence useful as long as there is any occasion for it."

"I have determined to remain in the ship"
While the boats were prepared, Riou wrote a letter to the Secretary to the Admiralty; "Sir, If any part of the officers or crew of the Guardian should ever survive to get home, I have only to say their conduct after the fatal stroke against an island of ice was admirable and wonderful in everything that related to their duties considered either as private men or on his Majesty's Service. As there seems no possibility of my remaining many hours in this world, I beg leave to recommend to the consideration of the Admiralty a sister who if my conduct or service should be found deserving any memory their favour might be shown to her together with a widowed mother. I am Sir remaining with great respect Your ever Obedt & humble servt, E. Riou" Riou gave the note to Mr Clements, the master of Guardian, who was given command of the launch. A total of 259 people chose to join the five boats, leaving Riou with sixty-two people: himself, three midshipmen, including Thomas Pitt, the surgeon's mate, the boatswain, carpenter, three superintendents of convicts, a daughter of one of the superintendents, thirty seamen and boys and twenty-one convicts. Guardian was nearly awash by now with 16 ft of water in the hold, but a bumping noise on the deck attracted attention, and on investigation was found to be a number of casks that had broken free and were floating in the hold, trapped under the lower gun deck. Realising that this was providing extra buoyancy, Riou had the gun deck hatches sealed and caulked, while another sail was sent under the hull to control the flooding. Having now created a substitute hull out of his deck, Riou raised what little sail he could and began the long journey back to land, with the pumps being continuously manned. For nine weeks Riou and his small crew navigated Guardian, by now little more than a raft, across the 400 league to the Cape of Good Hope. The Cape was sighted on 21 February 1790, and whalers in Table Bay despatched seven boats to help Guardian to safety. On 15 March Riou sent a letter from Table Bay expressing his intent to try reach Saldanha Bay, there to moor close to the shore to preserve what he could of the vessel and cargo. The letter also included a list of the 61 men and one woman (Elizabeth Schafer, daughter of one of the Superintendents of Convicts) on board Guardian.

A gale on 12 April drove Guardian on the beach. The wreck was sold on 17 February 1791.

Aftermath
J. K. Laughton, writing in the Dictionary of National Biography, described the voyage as 'almost without parallel'. Of the boats sent out on 25 December only the launch, with 15 people, survived, having been rescued by a French merchant. The launch had witnessed the sinking of the jolly boat, before losing contact with the two cutters and the long-boat. The 21 convicts that survived went on to New South Wales. However, Riou's report of their conduct resulted in 14 of the convicts being pardoned. The remains of Guardian were sold on 8 February 1791.

title: HMS Guardian (1784)


text:
Peter the Venerable

Peter the Venerable (c. 1092 – 25 December 1156), also known as Peter of Montboissier, was the abbot of the Benedictine abbey of Cluny. He has been honored as a saint, though he was never canonized in the Middle Ages. Since in 1862 Pope Pius IX confirmed his historical cult, and the Martyrologium Romanum, issued by the Holy See in 2004, regards him as a Blessed.

Life
Born to Blessed Raingarde in Auvergne, Peter was "dedicated to God" at birth and given to the monastery at Sauxillanges of the Congregation of Cluny where he took his vows at age seventeen. By the age of twenty he gained a professorship and was appointed prior of the monastery of Vézelay, transferring later to the monastery at Domène. Success at Vézelay and Domène led to his election as abbot general of the order, aged thirty. After his predecessor, the abbot Pontius, had been deposed by the pope, Peter became a tireless reformer of the Cluniac order, in the face of criticism from other orders and prominent monks and theologians, including the Cistercian monk St. Bernard of Clairvaux. His defence of his order against critics and his introduction of radical reforms, earned him the appellation of "venerable".

Peter, as an associate of national and religious leaders, attended many of the international religious councils. At the Council of Pisa in 1134 he supported the cause of Pope Innocent II, and the Council of Reims in 1147 and helped avert a Church schism. He defended the rationalistic Trinitarianism of the French theologian Peter Abelard against the sentence of the Council of Sens, granting Abelard hospitality at Cluny and working towards the eventual reconciliation of Abelard and his principal accuser, Bernard of Clairvaux. Peter granted Abelard a posthumous absolution at the request of Heloise.

Peter collected sources on, and writings about, Islam (see below) and spent a long sabbatical in Spain with Islamic scholars of all ranks. His vast correspondence reflects an almost encyclopedic theological knowledge. He produced some of the most important documents of the 12th century, and published the first Latin translation of the Qu'ran which became the standard Benedictine text used by preachers of the Crusades. His Talmudic contributions are tenuous and still under scrutiny. His friendship and correspondence with Bishop Henry of Blois of Winchester and Glastonbury, between 1138 and 1142, together with his debating skills, brought wider recognition of his scholarship. The internecine truce between Peter and Bernard of Clairvaux must be seen as superficial in light of recent scholarship detailing the repressiveness of Bernard's Cistercians toward the Cluniac orders.

He also wrote a number of musical compositions for use in Cluny.

Peter the Venerable died at Cluny on 25 December 1156. His works are edited in Patrologia Latina vol. 189.

Contribution to Muslim–Christian relations
Despite his active life and important role in European history, Peter's greatest achievement is his contribution to the reappraisal of the Church's relations with the religion of Islam. A proponent of studying Islam based upon its own sources, he commissioned a comprehensive translation of Islamic source material, and in 1142 he traveled to Spain where he met his translators. One scholar has described this as a "momentous event in the intellectual history of Europe."

The Arabic manuscripts which Peter had translated may have been obtained in Toledo, which was an important centre for translation from the Arabic. However, Peter appears to have met his team of translators further north, possibly in La Rioja, where he is known to have visited the Cluniac monastery of Santa María la Real of Nájera. The project translated a number of texts relating to Islam (known collectively as the "corpus toletanum"). They include the Apology of al-Kindi; and most importantly the first-ever translation into Latin of the Arabic Qur'an (the "Lex Mahumet pseudoprophete") for which Robert of Ketton was the main translator. Peter of Toledo is credited for planning and annotating the collection, and Peter of Poitiers (Peter the Venerable's secretary) helped to polish the final Latin version. The team also included Robert of Ketton's friend Herman of Carinthia and a Muslim called Mohammed. The translation was completed in either June or July 1143, in what has been described as "a landmark in Islamic Studies. With this translation, the West had for the first time an instrument for the serious study of Islam." George Sale criticized the translation for containing "numberless faults" and "leaving scarce any resemblance" of the Quran.

Peter used the newly translated material in his own writings on Islam, of which the most important are the Summa totius heresis Saracenorum (The Summary of the Entire Heresy of the Saracens) and the Liber contra sectam sive heresim Saracenorum (The Refutation of the Sect or Heresy of the Saracens). In these works Peter portrays Islam as a Christian heresy that approaches paganism, as Irven Resnick aptly puts it:

"Peter fails to recognize Islam as a religion of independent origin; rather, he imagines that Muslims subscribe to a Christian heresy 'because they believe some things with us,' and because they learned these beliefs from heretical Christians like Sergius; possibly, he concedes, one should call them pagans (pagani) or heathens (ethnici), however, because they do not share any of the Christian sacraments, as other heretics do. But insofar as he regards Muslims as heretics, he places them in a different category both from Jews and from pagans. In his polemic Against the Petrobrusians, which Peter brought to its final form in 1143 soon after his return from Spain, he remarked that 'in our day there exist chiefly four different types of sects in the world, i.e., Christians, Jews, Saracens, and pagans . . .' (Contra Petrobrusianos haereticos 161, p. 94). Both Jews and Muslims, however, will be subject to certain legal disabilities—e.g., a prohibition against marriage to or even sexual relations with a Christian."

While his interpretation of Islam was basically negative, it did manage in "setting out a more reasoned approach to Islam…through using its own sources rather than those produced by the hyperactive imagination of some earlier Western Christian writers." Although this alternative approach was not widely accepted or emulated by other Christian scholars of the Middle Ages, it did achieve some influence among a limited number of Church figures, including Roger Bacon.

At his weekly general audience in Saint Peter's Square on 14 October 2009, Pope Benedict XVI used Peter as an example of compassion and understanding, citing Peter's governance of Cluny, diplomacy, and study of Islam.

title: Peter the Venerable


text: User talk:82.36.134.106

title: User talk:82.36.134.106


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/9:18

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. - Mailer Diablo 02:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

9:18
Seems like self-promotion to me? Google does not turn up anything… :( Twthmoses 00:37, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Formed in '03, myspace webpage: delete unless author proves notability DDerby 01:35, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for improper use of the word "there" and vanity Dsmdgold 02:11, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Pure vanity, failed the google test. Satanicbowlerhat02:25, 10, Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article itself even says that it's not very famous, and it's clearly a vanity page. Oklonia 02:50, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete NN. --Fuzzball! (talk) 04:12, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, band vanity. Megan1967 06:13, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete band vanity. Mgm|(talk) 10:11, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. If noones [sic] every [sic] heard of them, there [sic] not encyclopedic. --Angr/comhrá 16:16, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. NN & vanity.  --Randy 21:35, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vanity- who are any of you losers to claim such a thing? (notice the correct use the question mark)
 * Alert  I'd like to delete the morons who voted to delete this page from the face of the earth- by the way, nice use of punctuation Twthmoses- do you always put a '?' at the end of your comments or just the most stupid ones?

Personal attacks above by anon 159.169.57.3 Vlad M V  ٭ talk 22:22, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * By the way, Delete vanity, fails to meet WikiProject_Music/Notability_and_Music_Guidelines. Vlad M V  ٭ talk 22:22, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - Unknown nobodies shouting the odds.. Get rid --Irishpunktom\talk 13:39, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete! Brendan62442 18:46, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/9:18


text:
User talk:Venerable Bede

Isma'ili
Hello I have done a huge amount on the Nizari page of Isma'ili and would welcome your thoughts or even input, well done on your comments on the Hashahsin page....Lewis's books seem outdated; as he never had access to first hand material. (Water Stirs (talk) 20:25, 29 October 2008 (UTC))

Mifune
Hi there! Your edits to the Toshiro Mifune article contain some details that conflict with information in the listed sources. Can you confirm that the story about how he entered film is not anecdotal/myth and either give an additional reference or modify the text? Thanks Quill 01:48, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you are referring to this quote from one of the sources?

" ..father had run a photographic studio in China, and perhaps this inspired Mifune to apply for a job as an assistant cameraman at the Toho studios. Although he got the job, a New Faces talent contest at the studio attracted his attention, and, with a few other actors, he was chosen from over 4,000 people."

My information came from a discussion given by a Japanese film critic who had gained the information from a direct interview with Mifune a few years prior. It can also be found in the Criterion DVD of Seven Samurai, in the Commentary, as well as David Owen's piece in the 1984 Japan Society TV tribute to Mifune. It is also found on Mifune's official website, if you can read Japanese. The "buddy" who recommended Mifune was an old army buddy from their base on Kyushu; by this time both Mifune's Parents were dead and he had no kin to speak of. His army buddies were all he had left. The only reason I see contradiction is because the "listed sources" are incorrect. --Venerable Bede 03:37, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, that's what I was referring to. No, I don't read Japanese.  I'm not arguing, I'm simply saying that if one goes to the sources listed in the article, there's some story about his accidentally getting in the wrong line and ending up doing a screen test instead of going for a staff job. The record needs correcting. Quill 07:54, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * umm, Venerable Bede has responded to MarnetteD at the place where Quill checks replies. Quill is confused, but Quill is not unhappy. Quill 04:01, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hello
My apologies for not contacting you directly. It was wrong of me not to do so. I am slowly learning the ways of wikipedia. Having lived thru some very mean spirited discussions on the message boards at IMDB, where there is no moderator or editor, I did not want to repeat the experience here. I agree that Galbraiths book is flawed (I didn't put it in the further reading section by the way), his assessment of the films is weak in the extreme. As a resource tool that has brought various sources together (even if plagerized) it has its uses and he is not making up the facts he repeats (although the original source might have). Also, I am not basing my entries solely on his book. Televised interviews with Mifune that I saw in 1970, 1983 (or'84) and 1992 were all conducted through an interpreter as were magazine interviews that I have read over the years. I just know that Mifune's voice was not dubbed in Red Sun but I wish Alain Delon's had been! It was much harder to understand what he was saying. Did you read an interview with Mifune circa '87-'88 where he talked about how he found it interesting that the three actors who had lived at the end of The Seven Samurai had all passed away while the four who had been killed were still alive? This became even more interesting when Minoru Chiaki passed away as he was the first killed, in the movie, and the last to pass away in real life. Rats, as I read over this I fear that I have done exactly what I was trying to avoid and if this is irritating you please feel free to delete it. Because all this is getting away from what is important. Toshiro Mifune was one of the all time special actors. We are the lucky ones in getting to see his performances and I am glad to know someone (even if only over the net) that enjoys him as well. MarnetteD | Talk 18:53, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No Problemo!
And like I said, welcome to wikipedia! :)

I've always wondered at the irony of the actors deaths in relation to the movie, based on the themes of the movie itself.

Isao Kimura (Katsushiro) was the first of the actors to die, wasn't he?--Venerable Bede 23:30, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I had forgotten that, but I think you are right, which just makes the whole thing even more fascinating. MarnetteD | Talk 20:07, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Rob Wells
An article that you have been involved in editing, Rob Wells, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Rob Wells. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Movingboxes (talk) 05:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Ur-head.jpg

A tag has been placed on File:Ur-head.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F9 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the image appears to be a blatant copyright infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted images or text borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. McGeddon (talk) 19:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Europe 10,000 Challenge invite
Hi. The WikiProject Europe/The 10,000 Challenge has recently started, based on the UK/Ireland The 10,000 Challenge. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. There's also the possibility of establishing smaller country or regional challenges for places like Germany, Italy, the Benelux countries, Iberian Peninsula, Romania, Slovenia etc, much like The 1000 Challenge (Nordic). For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. If you would like to see masses of articles being improved for Europe and your specialist country like WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon, sign up today and once the challenge starts a contest can be organized. This is a way we can target every country of Europe, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant and also sign under any country sub challenge on the page that you might contribute to! Thank you. --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:10, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Women in Red World Contest
Hi. We're into the last five days of the Women in Red World Contest. There's a new bonus prize of $200 worth of books of your choice to win for creating the most new women biographies between 0:00 on the 26th and 23:59 on 30th November. If you've been contributing to the contest, thank you for your support, we've produced over 2000 articles. If you haven't contributed yet, we would appreciate you taking the time to add entries to our articles achievements list by the end of the month. Thank you, and if participating, good luck with the finale!

title: User talk:Venerable Bede


text:
Template talk:World-War-I-stub

Please improve on the image, if possible! Grutness|hello? 00:38, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I changed it to an image of a gasmasked soldier in a trench, a pretty iconic, distinctive and historically important aspect of the war. I tried to choose an image that could represent a soldier of any nation involved, even if this particular soldier is an Australian.--Pharos 07:56, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd tried a couple of soldier images, but they all looked too blurry at that size. Ideally I'd have liked to find one of those famous pictures of silhouetted battleships (I think it was the Jutland campaign) - in the end I gave up and just put the Kitchener one there. Thanks for the improvement! Grutness|hello? 06:02, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Template talk:World-War-I-stub