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Kempsey, New South Wales

Kempsey is a town in the Mid North Coast region of New South Wales, Australia and is the council seat for Kempsey Shire. It is located roughly 16.5 kilometres inland from the coast of the Pacific Ocean, on the Macleay Valley Way near where the Pacific Highway and the North Coast railway line cross the Macleay River. It is roughly 430 kilometres north of Sydney. As of June 2018 Kempsey had a population of 15,309 (2018).

History
At the start of the British arrival the town lay within the area of the Djangadi people's lands. An Aboriginal presence has been attested archaeologically to go back at least 4,000 years, according to the analysis of the materials excavated at the Clybucca midden, a site which the modern-day descendants of the Djangadi and Gumbaynggirr claim native title rights. In the Clybucca area are ancient camp sites with shell beds in the form of mounds which are up to 2 metres (6 ft 7 in) high. Middens are attested in the Macleay Valley, together with remnants of a fish trap in the Limeburners Creek Nature Reserve and, just slightly north of Crescent Head, at Richardsons Crossing, there is a bora ring.

White presence on the Djangadi lands first took off as mostly ex-convict cedar cutters, based at a camp at Euroka Creek established by Captain A. C. Innes in 1827, began exploring the rich resources of the area in the late 1820s. The first European settler in the Kempsey district was named Enoch William Rudder, in 1835, who had purchased a land grant of 802 acres (325 ha) from its first owner, Samuel Onions.In 1836, runs held by squatters lying outside the sphere of colonial jurisdiction were absorbed into the southern legal framework. Within a decade the timber cutters had virtually harvested every stand of this highly prized red gold timber in clearances that made the land increasingly attractive to pastoralists,[20] who by 1847, after the passage of the Imperial Waste Lands Act of the preceding year, and the implementation of the Orders-in-Council (1847) had established 31 stations along the Macleay river from Kempsey inland to Kunderang Brook. This coincided with one of the most violent and sustained examples of warfare in the Macleay gorges, during which it is estimated that around 15 massacres took place in the region targeting Aboriginal people of the area.

The Djangadi and other tribes affected adopted guerilla tactics to fight the usurpation of their land, by attacking shepherds, hit-and-run raids on homesteads and duffing sheep and cattle livestock before retreating into the gorges where pursuit was difficult. Some 2 to 3 dozen people were killed for rustling sheep at a massacre which took place at Kunderang Brook in 1840. The war ended with the establishment of a force of native police at Nulla Nulla in 1851. However, by that time, attrition had devastated tribal numbers. Of the 4,000 Aboriginal people in the area before the settlements, one third are thought to have been killed in a little over two decades.

A description of the Djangadi and other Aboriginal groups in the Macleay area was given by Captain John Macdonald Henderson in 1851.

Some Djangadi settled the Shark, Pelican Island and the two Fattorini Islands in the Macleay River, gazette as Aboriginal reserves in 1885, and grew corn there. In 1924 the Fattorini island residents were relocated to Pelican Island, and its status as a reservation was cancelled. Eventually the Djangadi moved to Kinchela Creek Station though an unofficial camp remained at Green Hills, resisting attempts to have them relocated, until they were placed under the administration of a white manager at Burnt Bridge Reserve. Discrimination barriers were finally broken in part when the first Aboriginal children were permitted in 1947 to attend Green Hill Public School, though the white community reacted by shifting their children to West Kempsey. In the 1967 referendum on whether Indigenous people should be counted in the census of the Australian population, Kempsey had the highest number of 'no' votes in the country.

European settlement
Enoch William Rudder is credited with founding the settlement. He arrived from Birmingham in 1834 and bought land on the southern bank of the river in 1836, at what was then the limit of authorised settlement (the boundary of County Macquarie). He was initially attracted by red cedar cutting opportunities but planned also to profit by selling parts of his land. He had riverside blocks surveyed and established a private town, with the first blocks sold in November 1836. He called it Kempsey because the surrounding areas reminded him of the Kempsey Valley in Worcestershire. The collapse in red cedar prices in the early 1840s nearly led to the failure of the town.

The main (and most flood-prone) part of Kempsey was founded by John Verge, sub-dividing a grant on the flood-plain opposite Rudder's settlement. 1854, a government town was surveyed at West Kempsey and government facilities moved there when it became clear that no town would form around the police station and courthouse at Belgrave Falls. Rudder's settlement was renamed East Kempsey.

Kempsey initially flourished as a centre for logging and sawmilling. Large reserves of Australian red cedar Toona australis, (sold in Britain and the US as "Indian mahogany") were extracted down until the 1920s, and with greater difficulty until the 1960s, by which time the resource was effectively exhausted. Dairying was the major industry in the area until the 1960s, with a Nestlé Milo factory at nearby Smithtown, and several cheese and butter factories.

Burnt Bridge
John Moseley was an Aboriginal farmer who moved to Burnt Bridge, Euroka Creek, near Kempsey, in 1892. Like the European farmers in the district, he grew maize. In 1900, Aboriginal children were excluded from Euroka Public School. Moseley, his son Percy and others petitioned for an Aboriginal school, which was created at Burnt Bridge in 1905.

Under the Aborigines Protection Act 1909, the Aborigines Protection Board (APB) became responsible for the care and control of Aboriginal people, which included powers to remove children from their families. The APB pursued a policy of taking land from Aboriginal farmers and putting it in the hands of white farmers (by sale or lease). His protests to no avail, Moseley was forced to share-farm on a property he formerly owned. In October 1925, Moseley and Jimmy Linwood addressed a meeting at Kempsey showground organised by the Aborigines Progressive Association.

Around 1930, other members of the Moseley family joined John on the farm at Euroka Creek. In 1937 the APB secured a large block next to the farm for the creation of Burnt Bridge Aboriginal Reserve (sometimes referred to as Burnt Bridge Mission). Aboriginal people from various other communities were moved there and forced to live with inadequate housing or a poor water supply.

Children were removed from the Reserve, including girls who were taken to the Cootamundra Domestic Training Home for Aboriginal Girls, and became part of the Stolen Generations.

The manager of the reserve tried to take over the Moseleys' land, but after several scuffles, stand-offs, a letter to the local press by Moseley, a visit to Sydney by one of his sons, and intervention by Michael Sawtell, the APB agreed to leave them alone. After John's death in July 1938, Percy continued to make a claim on the land; he was then threatened with expulsion. He was granted permissive occupancy of 80 acres of the old reserve in June 1939, but never won title to the land.

Heritage listings
Kempsey has a number of heritage-listed sites, including:
 * Belgrave Street: Kempsey Post Office
 * North Coast railway: Macleay River railway bridge
 * 67 Smith Street: St Andrew's Presbyterian Church and Hall

Climate
Kempsey features a humid subtropical climate (Köppen: Cfa) with very warm, humid, rainy summers and mild, drier winters, albeit with cool nights. The town features 116.6 clear days annually with the bulk of clear weather occurring in late winter.

Floods
Geographically, Kempsey stretches out around a long loop of the Macleay River at the top of the floodplain. It is famous for its floods. The 1949 flood was particularly destructive, having washed away a large part of the town centre when the railway viaduct (which was acting as a dam-wall due to a build-up of debris against the approaches to the railway bridge) gave way. The area most affected by this flood is now the site of playing fields. The shire council has a policy of buying up land in areas designated as flood plains and many houses have been transported to higher ground in recent years. Other major floods occurred in 1949, 1950, 1963, 2001, 2009, 2013, 2021, late February to March 2022

Economy
Kempsey has a history of economic problems and disadvantage. Of the 10,374 residents in the area 1,573 worked full-time and 1,105 worked part-time. The area has an unemployment rate significantly higher than the national average. A plurality (35.1) of children live in families in which no member works. The median weekly household income is $691, nearly half the national average.

Despite a period of economic stagnation in past decades compared to nearby coastal centres of growth, Kempsey has a growing local economy based on tourism, farming and service industries. As a local centre it has many shops and services including three major supermarkets and fast food chain stores.

In 2014, the Australian Bureau of Statistics ranked Kempsey as one of the poorest Local Government areas in New South Wales.

A Coles supermarket development (known as the "Kempsey Central Shopping Centre") has been built and is situated where the Tattersalls Hotel and various small businesses were in Little Belgrave Street. This shopping centre opened on 6 December 2008. Target Country closed their department store on 9 June 2018 - this ends a 33-year connection to the Macleay Valley (Fosseys was formerly in town before being rebranded as Target Country).

Growing industries include wineries, nut and finger lime production. Kempsey is a service centre for the nearby coastal resorts of South West Rocks, Arakoon, Hat Head, Crescent Head and for the heritage-listed mountain village of Bellbrook, which are popular places for retirees and holiday-makers alike.

Demographics
According to the 2021 census, the median age in the Kempsey area is 42. 18.3% of residents are Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander. 84.4% of people were born in Australia. compared with the national average of 66.9%. The next most common country of birth was England at 1.6%. 71.9% reported having both parents born in Australia; this is significantly higher than the national average of 45.9%. 84.4% of Kempsey residents spoke only English at home.

The most common responses for religion were No Religion 35.2%, Catholic 19.4%, and Anglican 15.8%.

Sports
The most popular sport in Kempsey is Rugby league. The town has produced many NRL stars including Amos Roberts, Aiden Tolman, Albert Kelly, James Roberts and former Australian centre and Indigenous All Stars captain Greg Inglis, the latter 3 of whom are cousins. A local team, the Macleay Valley Mustangs, play in the Group 3 Rugby League competition, with their home ground being Verge St Oval. Another local team, the Lower Macleay Magpies, based in nearby Smithtown, play in the Hastings League. Kempsey have a junior team in the Group 2 Rugby League competition, the Kempsey Dragons.

Kempsey Rugby League teams:
 * Macleay Valley Mustangs (Group 3 Rugby League)
 * Lower Macleay Magpies (Hastings League)

Kempsey used to have an Australian rules team called the Macleay Valley Eagles, who folded in 2016.

Crime
In recent decades Kempsey has attracted attention for its high and rising rate of crime when compared with state averages. In 2016 crime figures released by the NSW Police Force revealed crime levels in Kempsey are two times the state average. Break and enter is a particular problem, with a rate three times the state average. From 2014 to 2016, most crimes increased in Kempsey, with domestic violence, robbery with a firearm and break and enters all rising.

In 2015 it was reported in the Sydney Morning Herald that Kempsey was experiencing violent crime linked to ice addiction. Offences for methamphetamine trafficking are roughly twice the state average. There followed a proactive program of crime prevention and community safety initiatives funded through the Australian, NSW and local government that has seen the town revitalised and crime incidents reduced. The 2016–17 Annual Report of Kempsey Shire Council indicated 80% of residents felt safe in their homes and public spaces.

Facilities
Government buildings such as the council chambers, library and several offices - are located west of the North Coast Railway line in West Kempsey. This area is not subject to the flooding that the CBD occasionally sees and is seen as a second business district with a variety of businesses and banking facilities. Opened in July 2004, the Mid North Coast Correctional Centre, a minimum to medium prison for 500 male and female inmates, is located in Aldavilla, approximately 14 km west of Kempsey. there are plans to add extra housing for more inmates by 2020.

Transport
Until a new 14.5 kilometre bypass opened on 27 March 2013, the Pacific Highway passed through Kempsey. The former alignment is now known as the Macleay Valley Way. The new bypass included a 3.2 kilometre Macleay River Bridge, the longest bridge in Australia.

Kempsey railway station is located on the North Coast line providing a connection to Sydney and Brisbane.

Primary schools

 * Kempsey East Public School
 * Kempsey South Public School
 * Kempsey West Public School
 * Kempsey Adventist School
 * Green Hill Public School
 * St Joseph's Primary School

High schools

 * Kempsey High School in West Kempsey largely servicing students living north of the Macleay.
 * Melville High School in South Kempsey servicing students living south of the river and in the beachside communities.
 * St Paul's College
 * Kempsey Adventist School in South Kempsey servicing students all around the Macleay.
 * Macleay Vocational College
 * Mid North Coast Correctional Centre provides education equivalent to high school level as a means of rehabilitation and reintegration

Notable people

 * Richard James Allen, poet, dancer, filmmaker
 * Jolene Anderson, actress and It Takes Two Series 2 winner
 * Wayne Bartrim, rugby league player of the 1990s
 * Joseph Donovan, Olympic boxer
 * Slim Dusty (David Gordon Kirkpatrick), singer
 * Charles Louis Gabriel, Medical practitioner
 * Silas Gill, Methodist preacher
 * Terry Giddy, Paralympic athlete
 * David Griffin, Paralympic swimmer & gold medallist
 * Greg Inglis, rugby league player
 * Albert Kelly, rugby league player
 * Thomas Keneally, novelist
 * Robin Klein, author
 * Henry Tasman Lovell, Psychologist and educator
 * Amos Morris, singer
 * Andy Patmore, rugby league player.
 * Penelope Plummer, Miss World 1968
 * Dennis Richardson, Officer of the Order of Australia, former Director-General of Security of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, and former Australian ambassador to the United States
 * Amos Roberts, former rugby league footballer
 * James Roberts, rugby league player.
 * Joe Robinson, guitarist and winner of Australia's Got Talent, Season 2
 * Dave Sands, Indigenous Australian boxer
 * Hector Thompson, boxer of the 1970s and 1980s
 * Aiden Tolman, rugby league player
 * Jack Verge, rugby union player
 * Amy Winters, Paralympic gold medallist
 * Triston Reilly, rugby league and rugby union player.

In Fiction
Tom Keneally's novel A River Town, (1995), a mystery novel centred on the lives of an Irish settler Tim Shea and his family in the period on the eve of Federation, is set in Kempsey.

title: Kempsey, New South Wales


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Jet Moto

Jet Moto is a series of futuristic racing games for the PlayStation video game console. Jet Moto (1996) and Jet Moto 2 (1997) were developed by SingleTrac, known for Twisted Metal and Twisted Metal 2. SingleTrac then left Sony, the publisher of the series, and Jet Moto 3 (1999) was developed by Pacific Coast Power & Light in their absence. They would also go on to develop Jet Moto 2124, which was cancelled two years into development. A fifth title known as Jet Moto: SOLAR was being developed by RedZone Interactive for the PlayStation 2, but no screenshots or video of gameplay were ever officially released, and the game was cancelled in 2003. in December 2022 gameplay footage of Jet Moto: SOLAR was uploaded to YouTube.

Common gameplay elements
Gameplay in the Jet Moto series differs from traditional racing games, as players instead control hoverbikes which hover close above the ground and can be driven over both land and water. Most of the courses in the games are designed to take advantage of this ability. The game has its variant of the traditional road course, but also introduces a new course type, known as a suicide course. Instead of being a continuous loop, these tracks have checkpoints at either end of the course, and the starting grid in the center. Characters race to one end, then turn around to head for the other checkpoint, repeating the process until all laps are complete. This provides a new gameplay dynamic as often the player must navigate oncoming traffic. Characters are split into teams, and bikes are adorned with logos of products such as Mountain Dew and Butterfinger, similar to real-life sponsored racing.

The Jet Moto series utilizes a system called the magnetic grapple. Pressing the assigned button near a red energy pole creates a magnetic attraction between the player's bike and the pole. Energy poles are often placed strategically throughout the courses, enabling racers to "slingshot" around tight turns without slowing down. The magnetic grapple system is also sometimes used to swing over large gaps and chasms otherwise too large to ride over. In addition to the grapple system players are given four boosts per lap, which provide a temporary burst of speed.

Jet Moto

The original Jet Moto (Jet Rider in Europe ) was developed by SingleTrac and published by Sony Computer Entertainment for the PlayStation and PC. The PlayStation version was released in North America on October 31, 1996, and 1997 for Europe in February, and for Japan on August 7. The PC version was released on November 30, 1997. Jet Moto was made available for the PlayStation Portable and PlayStation 3 via the PlayStation Network on February 4, 2007.

Twenty characters and three tracks are available at the beginning of the game, with seven more tracks unlockable by winning tournaments. Traditional tracks are also included, and typical courses range from beaches with debris-littered water, ice-covered mountains, and even a floating track set above a city.

At the time of its release Jet Moto was seen as Sony's response to Nintendo's Wave Race 64. Reviews for the game were mixed, and Jet Moto the PC version holds 75% and the PlayStation version 78.9% at gaming aggregator GameRankings. Reviewers felt the game had solid gameplay, but criticized its high difficulty. Several reviewers praised the soundtrack to the game. Game Revolution called the Dick Dale-esque music "reminiscent of spy tunes from James Bond movies". The surf guitar was a strong point for Electric Playground, who cited it as one of the best video game soundtracks of 1996. GameSpot reviewer Shane Mooney said the soundtrack was "just the adrenaline pump [he] needed". Jet Moto's popularity would earn it a spot in the PlayStation Greatest Hits in August 1998.

Jet Moto 2
Jet Moto 2 (known as Jet Rider 2 in Europe and Jet Moto '98 in Japan ) was released for the PlayStation in 1997. A Greatest Hits version of the game was also released. Due to an error during the disc printing process, a special edition version, Jet Moto 2: Championship Edition was printed instead of the original. This version featured six fewer competitors, but increased the game's speed to 30 frames per second. Jet Moto 2 was added to the PlayStation Network in January 2008.

The amount of playable characters for this game was halved in comparison to the first game, with ten characters available at the beginning of the game and one unlockable character. Track amounts were greatly increased, however, with ten new tracks, and tracks from the original game. All the original Jet Moto tracks were locked from the start. The first original track became available to play after all of Jet Moto 2's tracks were unlocked. Once the player got third place or better on one of the original tracks it would become unlocked and next original track would be available to play. Due to an error in printing all of the original tracks were unlocked from the start in the greatest hits version of the game, and ran at a faster speed than the original - albeit with only four racers. Tracks are more varied than Jet Moto, with each level containing a unique theme rather than the shared themes of the original game. The courses range from earthquake-damaged cities, desert Canyons, ice-covered mountains, roller Coasters, and several others.

The difficulty was higher in this game; the developers used gameplay recordings in place of fully developed racer AI, so most racers had a perfect run and any mistakes made by the player would result in a quick loss of top racing positions. Dual Analog Controllers were supported for the first time, as well as DualShock Controllers but without any vibration feedback.

Jet Moto 3
Jet Moto 3 was released for the PlayStation in North America only on August 31, 1999. A new developer and publisher would take over the series, Pacific Coast Power & Light and 989 Sports. It was released on the PlayStation Network on February 21, 2008, but was removed shortly thereafter for undisclosed reasons.

This Jet Moto is notable for the inclusion of new stunt tracks. The objective of these tracks is to perform stunts to gain higher points and to collect coins scattered throughout the track. Another notable inclusion is the hop button, which is used to boost your player above the ground to avoid obstacles. The physics also were given an overhaul. Many times the player's bike travels so fast that it can be stuck riding on walls. Graphics were also considerably smoother as the game was released two years after the original games, but suffered greatly due to the use of heavy texturing as was common for PlayStation games of the time. Track themes vary greatly, with tracks taking places in volcanic islands, catacombs, the heights of Machu Picchu, and a thick Sequoia forest. DualShock Controller support was added to this installment.

Jet Moto 2124
A fourth Jet Moto, called Jet Moto 2124, was being developed at Sony's 989 Studio in San Diego and was set to be based in the future. Production on the game began prior to the completion of Jet Moto 3. Level designers used Alias Power Animator 8.5 to create tracks for the game. Developers took inspiration from Syd Mead when coming up with concepts and designs for the game. Jet Moto 2124 would have been the first in the series to take the player to locations off Earth, including Mars, the moon and one of Jupiter's moons, Europa. Additional real-world sponsors had been solicited for in-game sponsoring, including Doritos, Slim Jim, and Body Glove. The game was to have redesigned physics and increased speed, giving 2124 "the Jet Moto feel but with Wipeout speed". Inspiration was also taken from freestyle motocross, and the ability would have been given to the player to do in air-tricks such as the heel clicker and can-can, similar to modern day tricks performed on specialized dirtbikes.

Developers cited lack of marketing support, camera issues and a flawed physics model for the jet motos as a few of the main concerns with the game's development. Other concerns included a new company president that did not support the game, and the studio director seeking to widen all the tracks, causing a significant increase in development time. These, along with lackluster sales of Jet Moto 3, led to the cancellation of 2124 two years into production, just prior to beta testing.

Jet Moto: SOLAR
In 2003 a PlayStation 2 project known as Jet Moto: SOLAR was rumored to be in development by RedZone Interactive, but no press releases or gameplay information were released to the public. On April 4 in minor coverage by IGN, the game was confirmed to be cancelled, subsequently confirming its development. A software design document and a document containing fictional character bios for the game surfaced in 2005 on the personal website of George Rothrock, co-founder of RedZone Interactive. SOLAR was set several hundred years after the original Jet Moto series, when the hover technology from the jet moto bikes had evolved into a new style of moto, the Gravity Resistant Vehicle (GRV). Locales would again expand to other locations off Earth, including Mars, the moon, and Ganymede, one of the moons of Jupiter.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Jet Moto


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Kempsey, Worcestershire

Kempsey is a village and civil parish in the Malvern Hills District in the county of Worcestershire, England. It is bounded by the River Severn on the west, and the A38 main road runs through it and is about 3 mi south of Worcester. The village has a long history. Its name is derived from the Saxon "Kemys' Eye", or the island of Kemys. Kemys was a Saxon chief, whose island lay between marshes and the River Severn. One of the roads in Kempsey, Lyf's Lane, is named after another Saxon chief. The village was recorded in the 11th century Domesday Book as having a value of £7.

The local Anglican church of St. Mary was built between the 12th century and 15th centuries, and the 15th century tower is 82 ft tall. The composer Sir Edward Elgar lived in the village from 1923 to 1927, during which time he was made Master of the King's Music. The village has several pubs including one named after Bishop Walter de Cantilupe.

Overview
Kempsey is a fairly large village and is home to The Lawns Nursing Home. Kempsey Playing fields and park are situated at the top of plovers rise and the Kempsey common is situated on the other side of the M5 past bestmans lane. The community centre is on the main road.

Kempsey Primary School is the village primary school down elldson lane near the old post office on post office lane and Painters Cottage Nursery. The rocky is a staple of Kempsey located next to St Marys Church on Church St. North-west of the village is the river severn, which runs alongside the village.

Neighbouring settlements
The nearest town to Kempsey is Upton-Upon-Severn, Major town is Malvern. The nearest city to Kempsey is Worcester which is where most residents go for shopping and leisure. The nearest major city is Birmingham in the West Midlands.

Etymology
Kempsey is named after a Saxon chief, Kemys. The full name means "Kemys' Eye", as the original settlement, where the church now stands, was a semi-island between the River Severn and marshland.

Pre-Roman Kempsey
According to 'Kempsey Collection' page 9, a piece of iron dated 1500-800 BC was dug up in the Court Meadow area, and is now in the Foregate Museum, Worcester. At that time the River Severn was tidal at Kempsey, and there was extensive marshland and forest in the Severn valley.

An Iron Age promontory fort can be found by the Severn at Kempsey.

Roman Kempsey
A Roman milestone dedicated to the Emperor Constantine the Great (AD 307 – 337) was found in about 1818 when ground was being levelled for a vegetable garden for Court House, opposite the west gate of the churchyard. According to O'Neil, this was probably not its original position as the nearest Roman road was about 1 mi away. It could have previously been used as masonry for the Bishop's Palace due to the lack of suitable building stone in Kempsey. The Victoria County History entry describes this as "an inscription found some years before 1818, lying in two pieces with other stones 4 ft deep in the west wall of the kitchen garden of the parsonage farm, north-west of the church. Many of the other stones were cemented together and formed some kind of ancient foundation; whether the inscription was one of these, is not recorded. It is itself a flat slab of freestone, 33 in high by 20 in wide, and is now in the Worcester Museum. It reads as follows:

Val(erio) Constantine P(io) fe(lici) invicto Aug(usto)

'Emperor Valerius Constantinus, pious, fortunate, unconquerable, Augustus.'

"Probably the commencement of the inscription is lost; it may have begun IMP. CAES FL. Imp(eratori) Cs(ari) Fl(avio). Flavius Valerius Constantinus was Constantine the Great, and this stone was presumably set up in his reign (A.D. 308-337). It appears to be a milestone, or rather a road-stone, of the type common in the fourth century, in which the mileage was often omitted - though here it might have been broken off. But it might conceivably be no more than an honorary slab."

The stone is from the Oolites of the Cotswold Hills. It is 3 ft high, 19+1/2 in broad and 7+1/2 in thick.

Roman Villas
According to Dr. J.K. St. Joseph, writing in The Journal of Roman Studies, in a section on Roman Villas, "At Kempsey (SO 848485), four miles south of Worcester, two rectangular ditched enclosures seem to belong to the same class" (i.e. Villa enclosures having slightly curved sides). "One, which measures about 250 ft. by 100 ft., has a single entrance in the middle of the short eastern side, while two of the sides are curved, the southern being bowed inwards."

Roman roads through and near Kempsey
There are three possible Roman roads through and near Kempsey. One may have run along Old Road South, entering the oldest area of the village where a Roman camp might have been, and exiting possibly along Lyf's Lane (although Lyf was a Saxon chief) and continuing to the Roman settlement at Worcester.

The second runs along the side of the present M5 motorway north by Holdings Lane to Taylor's Lane, where it enters St Peter the Great, Worcester.

The third, Green Street, connects Kempsey Common with the centre of the village, crossing the second Roman road mentioned above at Palmer's Cross.

Roman finds from archeological digs
Pottery, brooches and a coin from the time of the Emperor Nero were found in burial cists dug out of the gravel beds north of the church.

Celtic tribe
The Celtic tribe that lived around Kempsey in Roman times were the Dobunni.

Dark Ages
Kempsey was part of the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Hwicce, and then a part of the Kingdom of Mercia.

The King of Mercia and Kempsey Monastery
Coenwulf, King of Mercia, gave Abbot Balthun of Kempsey Monastery thirty smallholdings in return for the military service and maintenance work of Kempsey locals, according to the Victoria County History of Worcestershire.

An archaeological dig in 2011 at the top of the bank between the church and the river excavated 42 skeletons and left more in place, and carbon 14 dating of four skeletons gave a range between the 9th and the 13th centuries A.D. The field team found skeletons from a cross-section of the local population including males, females and children. According to a speech by Tom Vaughn of the archaeology society in May 2012, there were skeletons with an age range of approximately 12 to 70 years old, and there were so many skeletons that in one place they were buried seven deep. In those days the Bishop's palace and Anglo-Saxon minster sent priests out to local parishes preaching and converting, because the country had reverted to paganism after the Romans left. The dead were brought from a wide area to Kempsey for burial, because the only Christian consecrated grounds in the area were at Kempsey and at Worcester Cathedral. As other local parishes developed there was less need for this, and Kempsey church's graveyard therefore contracted to its present size.

Danish Raiders
To commemorate the departure of the Danes Bishop Aelhun built an oratory dedicated to St. Andrew. Then the Danes raided again, and the monastery was destroyed.

In 799 AD the population was about 150.

The Domesday Book
The Domesday Book says of Kempsey:

In the Hundred (Oswaldslow) The Bishop of the same Churche (Worcester) holds Chemesege (Kempsey). There are 24 hides paying geld, 5 of these are waste. There are 2 ploughs in the demesne, 13 villeins, and 27 bordars with 16 ploughs. There is a priest, 4 serfs and 2 bondswomen and 40 acres of meadow. The woodland is a mile long and ½ a mile wide. There are 13 hides in the demesne. In the time of King Edward it was worth £16, its present value is £8.

Royal Visits
King Henry II of England (visited 1186)

King Henry III of England (visited in 1265). On 2 August 1265 Henry III was brought as a prisoner to Kempsey by Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester and leader of the English barons. Bishop Walter de Cantelupe (who the pub known as "Walls" is named after) said Mass for him in Kempsey church the next morning, before they set off to the Battle of Evesham, where de Montfort was killed.

King Edward I of England (visited 1276) & with Queen Marguerite (26 December 1281)

The Black Death
The population of Kempsey fell from 600 in 1299 to only 86 in 1327.

Beheading
In 1303, the Reeve (the Lord's official on the manor) of Kempsey beheaded John de Draycote, a clerk, on the highway between Kempsey and Draycote, by order of the bishops bailiff. His head was placed before the Bishop's Palace gates, causing a riot, which was put down.

Alexander Neckham
Alexander Neckham, Abbot of Cirencester, was born on the same night as Richard the Lion-heart, and was brought up as his foster-brother. He was the first Englishman to write about chess, silkworms and the mariner's compass. He died at Kempsey in 1217, while visiting his friend Bishop Silvester.

Civil War
The English Civil War started in 1642, and Kempsey was quickly involved. On 22 September Colonel Nathaniel Fiennes and Colonel Samuel Sandys, Governor of Worcester, led a detachment of Lord Essex's Parliamentary Army across the Severn at Pixham Ferry. The forces of Prince Rupert beat them at the Battle of Powick Bridge on Powick Ham, and many of the fugitives re-crossed the river at Kempsey. However, Green writes that the victory went to the Roundheads, and that Prince Rupert was forced to flee.

Kempsey was raided on 2 July 1646, in an attempt to capture a Colonel Betsworth in his quarters. He was forewarned and eluded capture. According to Rev. Purton, "During the siege of Worcester in 1646, a squadron of 400 dragoons, under Colonel Betsworth, was quartered at Kempsey and on 2 July an attempt was made by the garrison to seize him there, which was unsuccessful." John Noake speaks of a tradition then current in the parish that Cromwell "personally superintended the battering down of the old church, and flattened the nose of every statue then and there lying." There are bullet marks of the south side of the Church tower.

Wrecking of the Revolutionary Elm
"In June on Whitsunday afternoon 1897 "The Revolutionary Elm" was wrecked by a sudden storm. It was probably the last of the trees planted to celebrate the events of 1688." Note: this was the Glorious Revolution of 1688-9, when the catholic King James II fled and the Protestant William of Orange (husband of the King's elder daughter Mary) was invited by parliament to be King William III of England.

Civil parish
Kempsey civil parish includes the settlements of Baynhall, Broomhall, Clerkenleap, Green Street, Kerswell Green, Napleton and Stonehall.

Notable people
Richard Moon (1814–1899) Chairman of the London and North Western Railway from June 1861 until he retired on 22 February 1891 lived in Kempsey from 1847 to 1848.

In 1918 Lieutenant Robert Vaughan Gorle of Napleton (an area of Kempsey parish) won the Victoria Cross on 1 October.

The composer Sir Edward Elgar (1857–1934), lived in Kempsey from April 1923 to October 1927.

Sir Richard Temple, 1st Baronet and his son, Richard Carnac Temple, both owned "The Nash", an estate near to Kempsey. The latter sold it in 1926 because of ill-health and financial difficulties.

Barbara Hamilton, 14th Baroness Dudley lived in Kempsey until her death in 2002.

title: Kempsey, Worcestershire


text: User talk:132.162.252.109

title: User talk:132.162.252.109


text:
Hakea Prison

Hakea Prison is a maximum security prison for males, located in Canning Vale, Western Australia. The facility is managed by the Department of Justice on behalf of the Government of Western Australia.

The prison officially opened in June 1982 as Canning Vale Prison, managing 248 prisoners. From September 1991, Canning Vale Prison operated as a maximum-security prison until, in 2000, it merged with the CW Campbell Remand Centre and became Hakea Prison. Hakea Prison manages prisoners in custody to appear in court (on remand) and those who have just been sentenced. Most newly sentenced prisoners are assessed at Hakea Prison before being placed at other Western Australian prisons.

Hakea Prison has specialist management units known as "punishment units" which have been described by the state regulator as "outdated and not fit for purpose" because of the intense psychological damage they inflict on inmates as well as the inability of guards to monitor the cells. These punishment units do not have showers and deprive inmates of several officially required amenities such as human contact. In March 2022 an Indigenous man suicided in one of the punishment cells after his repeated calls for help from guards were ignored.

In 2016, Units 11 and 12 of the Hakea facility were converted into the separate Melaleuca Remand and Reintegration Facility for women.

title: Hakea Prison


text:
Main Street District, Dallas

The Main Street District of downtown Dallas, Texas (United States) runs along Main Street and is bounded by Elm Street one block north, Commerce St. one block south, N. Lamar St. to the west, and US 75/I-45 (I-345) elevated highway to the east. The district is the spine of downtown Dallas, and connects many of the adjoining business and entertainment districts. It does not include Dealey Plaza or the John Fitzgerald Kennedy Memorial which are a few blocks west in the West End Historic District.

About
Main Street has historically been the center of the city of Dallas. Many of Dallas' major retailers, hotels and banks once located here, and the district includes the city's early skyscrapers. Subsequent development of downtown moved north and east to the City Center District in following years, leaving many of the historic buildings inefficient for modern offices.

The Main Street District was the first district of downtown Dallas to experience extensive urban revival. Many of the grand historic buildings that had been neglected have been restored and adapted for new use. Pegasus Plaza, an urban plaza bounded by the Magnolia Hotel, Iron Cactus Restaurant, Adolphus Tower and the Kirby Building, is a gathering place for visitors and residents at the heart of the district. The narrow tree-lined street is a major pedestrian route through downtown. The district contains many sidewalk restaurants, basement night clubs and retail stores (most notably Neiman Marcus). While several of the buildings have found new life, there are many still awaiting restoration. Main Street Garden Park is a new focal park of the district's east end.

Commerce and Elm Streets, major east-west thoroughfares, form the boundaries of the district and also contain many additional landmark structures.

Completed projects

 * Titche-Goettinger Building, the former Titche-Goettinger Department Store, featuring 129 apartments (1997) and the Universities Center at Dallas.
 * The Wilson Building, 135 apartments (1999).
 * Main Street lofts, 8 apartments (1999).
 * The Kirby Building, 156 apartments (1999).
 * Magnolia Hotel, 300 room hotel (1999).
 * The Davis Building, 183 apartments (2003).
 * Dallas Power and Light Complex, 158 apartments 2004.
 * Mercantile Bank Building + Renovation into 225 rental units with a new 15 story 150 rental units.
 * Dallas National Bank Building into the Joule Hotel.
 * The Metropolitan, 283 condo units.
 * Third Rail Lofts
 * Gulf States Building – 68 apartments.
 * 1407 Main – 84 apartments.
 * 1414 Elm – 14 apartments.
 * Pegasus Plaza
 * Main Street Garden Park
 * 100 North Central Expressway
 * UNT Dallas College of Law
 * The Statler and the Mercantile Building..jpg Garden Park

Current and future projects

 * The Statler Hotel & Residences - 159 hotel rooms, 219 apartments

Education
The district is zoned to schools in the Dallas Independent School District.

Residents of the district west of Central are zoned to City Park Elementary School, Billy Earl Dade Middle School, and Madison High School. Residents east of Central are zoned to Ignacio Zaragoza Elementary School, Alex W. Spence Middle School, and North Dallas High School.

In the fall of 2014, the University of North Texas System opened the UNT College of Law in the Titche-Goettinger Building at 1900 Elm St. / 1901 Main St. After the completion of a $70 million dollar renovation in 2019, the law school moved to the former Dallas city hall on South Harwood Street next to Main Street Garden Park. the Beaux Arts style structure opened in 1914 and once held Lee Harvey Oswald but had slowly deteriorated over the decades. As of 2020, the UNT College of Law is the only public law school in the City of Dallas.

Streetcars

 * MATA: M-Line Trolley (in City Center District)
 * The M-Line Trolley is a heritage streetcar that provides service between Cityplace/Uptown station in Uptown and St Paul station in Downtown. Service is free.
 * The M-Line features 40 dedicated stops serving key destinations including: the West Village, McKinney Avenue, Klyde Warren Park, the Dallas Arts District, four historical cemeteries, and the State Thomas historic neighborhood.

Trains

 * DART, , , listed south to north
 * Akard Station (in City Center District)
 * St. Paul Station (in City Center District)
 * Pearl/Arts District Station (in City Center District)

title: Main Street District, Dallas


text:
Bega, New South Wales

Bega is a town in the south-east of New South Wales, Australia, in the Bega Valley Shire. It is the economic centre for the Bega Valley.

Place name
One claim is that place name Bega is derived from the local Aboriginal word meaning "big camping ground". Another claim is that it is a corruption of the word "bika" in the local Aboriginal language (one of the Yuin languages) meaning "beautiful". The local Aboriginal name for Bega before colonisation was Worerker.

History and description
The Bega region was used by the Yuin-Monaro Aboriginal people for thousands of years before Europeans arrived in the area. The clan whose country occupied the Bega vicinity were called the Worerkerbrim mitte.

Bega lies at the foot of Mumbulla Mountain, named after a Yuin elder King Jack Mumbulla, whose traditional Aboriginal name is Biamanga. The surrounding National Park is named after him as Biamanga National Park.

The first European to come near the area was George Bass, who explored the region's coastline in December 1797 as part of his broader explorations of the Australian coast. William Tarlinton was the first European to explore the area on foot, arriving in 1829. He returned in the early 1830s and settled there, starting a cattle farm. Others who arrived in the area around the same time were the Imlay brothers, who also began farming there. Their name has since been preserved in the form of Mount Imlay National Park. Live cattle were transported to Sydney for a time, to be supplemented by tallow and hides in the early 1840s. Beef and dairy farming were carried on in the area through the 1840s, and many towns were surveyed in the 1850s.

The town of Bega itself was laid out and gazetted in December 1851. Located to the north of its present location, repeated flooding later resulted in its relocation to the higher ground south of the river. Dairy farming expanded in the region quickly throughout the 1860s, overtaking cattle farming as the predominant industry. In 1858, Tathra was used as a port for the transport of products to Sydney, and the Illawarra Steam Company was established. In 1861–62, Tathra Wharf was constructed, which allowed for the further growth and expansion of the dairy industry.

The region received a further boost in the late 1870s when gold was discovered in the Bermagui area. The Bermagui gold rush followed quickly in 1880. Two years later, in 1882, the Municipality of Bega was created. The Bega Dairy Cooperative Limited was set up in the late 1890s.

Bega is now well known for its cheese. Bega Cheese is manufactured by The Bega Co-operative Society Limited which is one of the larger Australian cheese companies. Their products are exported around the world and distributed across Australia and are available in most supermarkets and general stores.

Notable local landmarks are Bega Court House and Rosevear Jeweller's shopfront, which are both listed on the Register of the National Estate. The courthouse was built in 1881 and consists of rendered brick and iron roofs. The Rosevear shop is in Carp Street and was established circa 1899. It is listed as a notable example of Victorian commercial designers.

After years of planning, the shopping mall in Bega was built. The Sapphire Marketplace was opened on 2 December 2011.

Heritage listings
Bega has a number of heritage-listed sites, including:
 * 21 Auckland Street: CBC Bank Building

Population
According to the 2021 census, there were 5,013 people in Bega.
 * Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people made up 6.7% of the population.
 * 82.3% of people were born in Australia. The next most common country of birth was England at 2.2%.
 * 87.3% of people only spoke English at home.
 * The most common responses for religion were No Religion 43.8% Anglican 17% and Catholic 16.8%

Climate
Bega has a temperate oceanic climate (Cfb) with mild summers and cool winters with frequent foehn winds. Nights are relatively cool all year round due to its valley location at a southern latitude, and frost is a regular occurrence in the winter months. The town gets 85.3 clear days annually, largely in the winter and spring months. Diurnal range is particularly high from mid winter to early spring, especially for a near-coastal location. The lowest temperature on record was an impressive -8.1 C on 16 July 1970 at the Newtown Road site.

Notable people

 * Kezie Apps – Female Rugby League Player
 * Chris Atkinson – WRC driver
 * David Boyle – Rugby League Player
 * Morgan Boyle – Rugby League Player
 * Adam Elliott – Rugby League Player
 * Dale Finucane – Rugby League Player
 * Deborah Glass OBE – Victorian Ombudsman
 * Thomas Jack – DJ
 * Lenka – singer and songwriter
 * Ky Rodwell – Rugby League Player

title: Bega, New South Wales


text:
Talk:Tsakonian language

Comments
Tsakonian has "Albanian loanwords"---interesting. I want to read more about this. Decius 06:42, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Most of them are shepherding terms, I believe. There is a quote from Pernot that goes something like "The Albanian's influence ends at the shepherd's door," i.e. the importation of vocabulary is limited to certain occupational terminology.  There were villages in the area that were settled by Albanian shepherds, with whom the Tsakonians presumably had contact regarding sheep-related matters. --Jpbrenna 02:13, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

 * For the record: that was a personal communication from Costakis to me, in 1996. Opoudjis (talk) 12:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Candidacy for page move and other issues
--Jpbrenna 16:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) The most common name for this language in English is Tsakonian. Tsakonic is much less common, and this page should be moved back to where it was when I started it almost two years ago (my very first Wikipedia edit!), with this page redirecting, instead of the other way around.  The present situation is like having the Greek language article at "Hellenic tongue."  Sure, it's a much better literal translation of the Greek term, but it would strike an English speaker as rather odd.
 * 2) The description of Tsakonic as a "Greek dialect" is incorrect (unless you take the minority position; see #4 below).  While that is the correct name for it in Greek, and many Greeks think of it as being a dialect, it is actually considered a separate but related language in dialect continuum with Greek, like Flemish with Dutch, or the closely related Spanish and Portuguese. (See Ausbausprache - Abstandsprache - Dachsprache). There are actually three principal dialects of Tsakonian itself, although one (Propontic Tsakonian) is extinct and it seems that one of the other two has all but disappeared.  Exact figures are hard to come by, but I believe that Prof. Costakis latest surveys have found there to be 2-5,000 true full native speakers, and many tens of thousands of secondary or tertiary speakers.  That contrasts to an estimated 250,000 speakers a century ago.  (If we were doing Babel for Tsakonian, we would have lots of TS-1, TS-2 and TS-3's, but relatively few TS-N's.)  I would have to check with my friend Dr. Nicholas about this because it may quaiify as No original research, but I think that the real "Tsaconic dialect" is not the Tsakonian language itself, but the speech of the thousands of Peloponnesians whose parents or grandparents spoke Tsakonian and whose descendants speak a Tsakonian-flavored dialect of Standard Modern Greek.
 * 3) There is no bibliography here. I thought that the original article had a brief one with Pernot and Costakis' works mentioned. I actually have a copy of Syntomi Grammatiki tis Tsakonikis Dialektou sitting on my shelf here, so I'll put that in right away and add the others later.
 * 4) Tsakonian is not uncontroversial, and we should note that. While the current consensus seems to be that it is a Hellenic language, there are some scholars around who dispute that classification.  Again, while the consensus is that it is Doric-derived with a heavy Attic/Koine adstrate (and a little Albanian, Slavic and Turkish), scholars can be found to dispute this as well.  Obviously, if you think that the extent of Doricisms to be found is overstated, you tend to lean less toward it being a separate language, and more toward it being just a dialect of Modern Greek.

Move

 * The page should be moved not to Tsakonian but to Tsakonian language in keeping with Wikipedia naming conventions for languages. --Angr/undefined 14:10, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Oops, good point. --Jpbrenna 19:01, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Voting

 * For. Whether it should be classified as a separate, closely related language is still debated. What is not debatable is that Tsaconic as an adjective is almost non-existent in English, with most scholars calling the tongue Tsakonian, whether they argue that it is a separate Modern Greek language in its own right, or a mere dialect.--Jpbrenna 20:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. --Node

Tsakonic or Tsakonian, is classified as a Greek dialect not only by linguists, but also its native speakers , and that's the bottom line. Therefore there is no basis to talk a about a separate language, unless of course you're willing to compare sources. The vote is pointless and it won't help anything. As for changing it back to "Tsakonian", I can't see any reason other than you being eager to satisfy your ego. It's already mentioned that it's also known as "Tsakonian" and the old name has been redirected here. Furthermore the termination -ic is more correct as it derives directly from the Greek "Tsakoniki" and it's less corrupted in translation. As a significant contributor to the articles of the Greek language, I think my opinion counts more than yours on this matter. Miskin 03:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The article name should be the most common English name. Miskin, do you think that Tsakonic is more common? What are your sources for this? Doing a Google search on English pages for: "Tsakonian -Wikipedia" gives 692 hits, whereas searching for "Tsakonic -Wikipedia" gives 64 , a 10 to 1 ratio in favor of Tsakonian. Paul August ☎ 04:06, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually, I want it to be moved to Tsakonian language, not Tsakonian (its original title). And as it has been pointed out by me, and now by Paul August, Tsakonian is the most common name in English.  Talking about the word being "corrupted" in English is absurd - shall I go over to the Greek Wikipedia and change Αγγλική γλώσσα to Ινγκλίτς or the Γερμανική article to Nτοϊτς?  No, that would be crazy, because it's not Greek.
 * I am willing to compare sources. We can start with the Ethnologue entry updated by Dr. Nick Nicholas.  .  It is listed there as "not inherently intelligible with Modern Greek", although it notes that Propontis Tsakonian was much closer to Standard Modern Greek. I am not denying that some very knowledgeable people consider it only a dialect, not an entirely separate language - sometimes that merely comes down to how you classify a "dialect."  I am saying that the preponderance of sources at present classify it as a separate language.

 * Where does this woman assert that she is a native speaker? She is a native of Leonidio (which has long since ceased to be a Tsakonian-speaking area) living in Canada, as far as I can tell from her webpage.  Nowhere does she make the assertion that she is a native Tsakonian speaker.  Neither do I remember her saying that when she made a post to the Yahoo! Tsakonian group asking if anyone there knew of links to Tsakonian music (one would think a native Tsakonian speaker would know where to look - except even they don't sing their songs in Tsakonian anymore!)  A very nice lady, very polite in her Internet posts - unlike some people I could mention. What I find really interesting about that link is the part where she aserts that elderly people use Tsakonian as a "code language."  Interesting - if the kids can't understand them, then doesn't that tend to support the theory that is a separate language and that Standard Modern Greek & the Modern Greek dialects lack mutual intelligibility with Tsakonian?

--Jpbrenna 08:45, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Your example of Αγγλικά - Ινγκλιτς is out of context because it's comparing two different cases. The English language has a "built-in" way to translate or assimilate Greek words from "-ικη" to "-ic" and "-ικα" to "-ics". Greek doesn't have a similar functionality to deal with "-ish" or "-an" so there you go. Anyway to show how unbiased I am, I really don't have a problem to change the name of the article to anything you like. Everything is redirected at the same place so I really don't see the difference. You can even name it Tsakonian language if you want and make all those edits that don't change anything except your personal satisfaction. What I will not allow you to do however, is to change the article's content by implying a "separate language" status of Tsakonian from Greek, or unlist it from Modern Greek. As for the dialect-language conflict, yes there's a very thin line between the two, this is why we take the best established views. There's also a debatable intelligibility between Tsakonian and standard Modern Greek, but then again partial comprehensibility is the very thing that distincts a dialect from an idiom. If you think that this site is not the representative opinion of a native speaker of Tsakonian, then I can make sure I get you one. I can even gather documented information by people who have a native diglossy between Tsakonian and Greek, and see whether they consider it a seperate language or not. If you think on the other hand that linguists consider it a separate language, then start preparing your sources. The voting system of wikipedia is rediculous, and this case proves it. I can personally guarantee that User:Angr for example (who edited above) has not a slightest clue in the Greek language, and I have saved a couple of articles from his petty vandalism. Now he comes here, posing as an expert, and having the right to vote like any other editor. Miskin 12:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Miskin: The reason that the name matters is because of WP:UE, which says that the most common English name should be used, notwithstanding the fact of redirects. By naming an article, we are implying that that is its most common English name. So do you agree that "Tsakonian" is the most common name in English? (By the way, I see no need to speculate on Jpbrenna's motives for suggesting the name change, and in any case, I see no reason to look further than the motive of wanting the name of the article to conform to WP:UE.) As for the voting issue, generally we try to decide things on Wikipedia by consensus. We generally use voting only to attempt to measure the presence or lack of a consensus. Paul August ☎ 18:38, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * I assumed that since the most common name was also stated, wikipedia's bureaucracy would be satisfied. If it's so evident then you should proceed with the change already. It only strikes as a weird thing to me because I fail to see how can someone make such a big fuss such a unimportant matter. Miskin 22:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I've moved the page and merged the edit histories (since the original "move" was done via a cut and paste, and the previous edit histories were "lost". Paul August ☎ 01:07, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Citations needed

 * 1) My addition claiming that Tsakonians traditionally did not call themselves Tskanones - it was in one of Dr. Nicholas's papers, with appropriate citation from his source, but I need to dig it up.
 * 2) It says Tsakonian is officially classified as a dialect. Is this the official position of the Greek government?  Who makes this determination, the Vouli or the Ministry of Education or what?  I don't dispute the fact that the Greek government considers it a dialect - I'd just like to know the who, what, when, where and how if possible, because I'm curious.--Jpbrenna 19:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Stop accusing the fascist Greek government, it's getting monotonous already. Tsakonian being a Greek dialect is not another Greek government evil scheme, it actually exists in both Greek and neutral linguistic sources. See Robert Browning's "Medieval and Modern Greek", among many others. Miskin 23:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Minority position
I think the title of this page is misleading since it advocates a minority position. Tsakonian is a variety of the Greek language, not a separate language. I think the page should be renamed to Tsakonian, Tsakonian Greek, Tsakonian dialect, Tsakonian (Greek) or another possible variation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Demonax (talk • contribs)
 * Hi Demonax, thanks for your comments, and welcome. As you can see from the talkpage above, there has been quite a bit of discussion about these names. I would personally go simply for Tsakonian, in fact, but as there were several well-respected fellow editors who had different preferences, I wouldn't unilaterally force a change at this point. There are quite a number of articles in Wikipedia that have "...language" in the title without necessarily implying separate language - take it just like this: a dialect is a language too, the word in the title just serves to disambiguate from "Tsakonian people", "Tsakonian culture", or whatever. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I realize that, I also see a Pontic language and a Griko language. If the article is to retain its present title, then the article should make it very clear that we are talking about a dialect, not an independent language.
 * Fair enough. But the current text "... is a dialect of Greek" in the lead sentence is already pretty clear, isn't it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Russian, Ukranian and Belorussian are at most 600 years old, yet we call them separate languages. This one is more than 3000 years old. YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 09:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Minor add
I will add the following sourced statement in the article, I welcome any constructive suggestions :

''In reality, although it is accepted that Tsakonian Language spoken in the eastern Peloponnese  comes from ancient Greek is not necessary koiné. Although the language resulting in almost distinction, teaching material written in Tsakonian are provided in some school of Greece. ''

Reference : Variation in modern Greek Two varieties of Greek are sufficiently different that linguists might want to suggest that they are actually separate languages. Tsakonian (see Newton 1972b), spoken in the eastern Peloponnese, is descended from Ancient Greek but not by way of the koiné. It is reported to be dying out, but some schools in the area have acknowledged the degree of difference between it and other forms of Greek by providing teaching materials written in Tsakonian. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics.Berlin,, DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 152 Dodona--Burra (talk) 21:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but your sentence isn't correct English, and it makes no sense logically. What is the "although"..."although" doing there? And the "in reality"? What do you mean "not necessary"? You seem to be trying to express some logical relation between the parts of your sentence, but it just doesn't become clear what that relation is. I would gladly help you rewrite this in correct English, but I can't figure what exactly you mean. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Please feel free of any change, now i think the meaning is clear.Dodona--Burra (talk) 10:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

 * I'll put in a sentence about the teaching materials, okay. But you need to tell me the author of the article you're quoting. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The phonology additions are welcome, but not particularly scholarly, I'm afraid. Lots of amateur speculation. I'm cleaning them up. The argumentation against Macedonian b and some other bits are WP:OR (and certainly not compelling or relevant here). Opoudjis (talk) 12:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

70% similarity
A nasty situation arises with the claim of 70% similarity between Standard Modern Greek and Tsakonian, deleted six months ago because "Ethnologue is unreliable". Ethnologue sources its claim to me, and my claim is in an unpublished paper written 10 years ago, which I'm thinking I might as well post online. I think that will satisfy the claims of verifiability (albeit tenuously), and that therefore the 70% para should be restored. Any objections?

I further note that under any linguistic notion of what constitutes a separate language, 70% is conventionally agreed to mean Tsakonian is separate. (Any standard modern Greek speaker who claims Tsakonian is mutually intelligible with Greek is not, I would say, being honest.) There is no evidence for a distinct Tsakonian ethnic identity, and no great push to call it a separate language, but the 70% figure is straightforward... Opoudjis (talk) 09:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I was wondering about consistency across the pages on the varieties of Greek: right now, we have "Tsakonian language" but merely "Pontic", for example. While we can argue (endlessly) about the applicability of various metrics (and I merely note that I for one would love to see a source for the claim that "70% is conventionally agreed" to grant "language" status), there being no particular scientific one, only political, cultural, historical, sociological ones, it is common practice in the English-language literature on the development of Greek in all its varieties to refer to Tsakonian as a dialect (see for example Horrocks 1997:300 "... led to the creation and consolidation of the principal dialect divisions of modern Greek"; he lists eight, with Pontic and Cappadocian as one group, Tsakonian as another, etc.). This terminology should not be taken to imply mutual intelligibility: I can attest that Pontic Greek (especially spoken, though also to a great extent written) is not intelligible to standard modern Greek speakers, and I have no reason to doubt Opoudjis's similar claim for Tsakonian). But by wikipedia convention, the most usual term should be used (this is why Tsakonian is clearly preferable to Tsakonic). I note here as well that the sources that Horrocks 1997 cites (Pernot 1934 in French, Kostakis 1951, 1980 in Greek, and Kharalambopoulos 1980 in Greek) all also use the term "dialect" in their works. Therefore it seems reasonable to maintain some sort of consistency across the labelling of these varieties, with a preponderance of scholarly usage favoring 'dialect'. Something like "Tsakonian (Greek)", "Pontic (Greek)" would seem clear. I wish we could rely on some other authority, but the ISO 639-3 codes are themselves inconsistent on this point (assigning separate ISO codes to Pontic and Tsakonian (not under Greek), but listing Cappadocian with Greek).Mundart (talk) 16:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

 * First, Cappadocian does have its own ISO 639-3 code: here. The label "Greek" with the name Cappadocian should not be interpreted as anything other than a traditional name--the assignment of a separate ISO code itself indicates the consideration of this variety as a separate language.

 * Second, only 70% similarity between two speech forms is generally considered by most linguists to mean two separate languages. This is specifically noted in Ethnologue as 70% lexical similarity.  Most linguists who work with lexicostatistics mark the borders of language/dialect at about 85%.  I'll have to find a reference, but I know that in my reading of lexicostatistic studies from various places in the world, that is the range where dialects are separated into languages.  This goes back to the use of lexicostatistics and measuring the rate of language change.  Using the Swadesh 200-word list, it was assumed that languages retained about 81% of core vocabulary over 1000 years.  Using the revised 100-word list, that rate of retention changed to 86%.  Most linguists who use these numbers equated 1000 years of separate existence to becoming a separate language.  Thus, two speech varieties that only share 70% of basic vocabulary would clearly be two distinct languages.  While lexicostatistics is seldom used today, the 85% figure is still quite firmly fixed in the collective linguistic consciousness as a strong indicator of two separate languages.

 * Third, mutual intelligibility is nearly always equated with distinct languages, especially when there is not a dialect chain involved. If two speech varieties are mutually unintelligible, they are two separate languages.  This overrides any "traditional usage" of the words "dialect" or "language" by locals in the minds of most linguists trying to standardize usage around the world.  Thus, while Chinese linguists and Greek linguists call the different varieties "dialects" (in this case, Tsakonian, Pontic, and Cappadocian), global-oriented linguists call them separate "languages".  (Conversely, they often link--with various levels of acceptance--Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish.)  Tsakonian has not been mutually intelligible with Greek for at least 500 years.  Here is one Greek/Tsakonian specialist who clearly states that Tsakonian can be considered a separate language because of the number of differences between Greek and Tsakonian at all levels of grammar and vocabulary.
 * Fourth, there is a photo of a sign at the border of Tsakonian territory in the article. It clearly uses the Tsakonian term groussa (Greek, glossa) and not dialektos (or whatever the Tsakonian word for "dialect" is) to distinguish their speech variety from Greek.  Heck, just looking closely at the grammar and vocabulary on the sign convinces me that these are two separate languages.
 * By two separate objective measurements--percentage of shared vocabulary and mutual intelligibility--Tsakonian and Greek are separate languages. By the Tsakonian people's own judgement, they are separate languages.  It is only by using subjective non-linguistic considerations that they are not separate languages.  Ethnologue, Linguasphere, Voegelin & Voegelin, etc. all mark Tsakonian as a separate language.  (Taivo (talk) 17:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC))

"Fourth, there is a photo of a sign at the border of Tsakonian territory in the article. It clearly uses the Tsakonian term groussa (Greek, glossa) and not dialektos (or whatever the Tsakonian word for "dialect" is) to distinguish their speech variety from Greek." lol 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:57, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Try telling a Norwegian or a Dane that he speaks "Swedish" and see the reaction you get. If a group recognizes their speech variety as a separate language, that is a very powerful indicator of its perceived separateness.  Group consciousness is at least as important as objective linguistic factors, although when the two conflict other factors must be considered (as in the case of Norwegian-Danish-Swedish).  Tsakonian consciousness is clearly that they speak a different language than Greek.  In this case, group consciousness and objective linguistic facts both agree that Tsakonian is a separate language.  (Taivo (talk) 19:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC))

 * Excuse me, but what do you know about linguistic "group consciousness" in Greece? I can tell you linguistic group consciousness down there is an extremely thorny issue, with people very often holding linguistic lay theories that to us outsiders appear hopelessly wrong or self-contradictory (well documented in the case of Albanian-speakers and other minorities), and I highly doubt if you asked speakers of Tsakonian what they thought Tsakonian was you'd get any coherent answer at all, let alone a clear-cut consensus it was a "separate language". People would probably have no clear conception what that notion means in the first place. Drawing a conclusion as you did from that one street sign photo is, well, to put it mildly, a rather bold conjecture. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:52, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Bold conjecture, but with at least one piece of evidence ;) Never claimed to be an expert, I just look at what is in front of me.  But we've discussed this before and you know that I put a greater value on objective linguistic evidence--mutual intelligibility and lexical similarity versus the opposite.  (Taivo (talk) 11:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC))
 * Yep, just as you know I put a greater value on usage in the pertinent specialised literature, so I'm with Mundart in principle here, even though I wouldn't necessarily draw the conclusion we need to rename the article: "... language" can serve as a title disambiguation tag without implying "separate...". Hey, Mundart, are you my sockpuppet? ;-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * First, a tiny clarification: when I said "listed", I really just meant listed (as here): Greek, Modern; Greek, Cappadocian; etc, but no Greek, Pontic. I know there's a separate code for it. (What I meant by inconsistency in Ethnologue was only this, nothing more; Ethnologue does--and should--err on the side of more, not less, as it does for "Jamtska" for example here--which it claims has a "perhaps 95% lexical similarity to other Norwegian or Swedish dialects").
 * My own druthers would be to call Tsakonian (and Pontic etc) a language, but I wasn't necessarily advocating that, only that there be some consistency. (And Joseph's article--thanks! [I heard him present these results in Cyprus in 1999, but it had slipped my mind]--is nice, but he's typically very careful in picking his words: "Standard Modern Greek and Tsakonian (a Greek 'variety' spoken in the eastern Peloponnesos) — are customarily thought of as dialects rather than as separate languages, though conceivably they could be different languages since they show numerous and very evident differences in phonology, lexicon, morphology, and syntax." (p.1)--on p. 6 he also slips back into the 'dialect' nomenclature: "These facts show therefore that the borrowing of negation and the relevant social context for such an outcome of contact are not just a peculiarity of contact between Greek and Turkish or involving Greek dialects,..." .) I really have no dog in this fight, so to speak. I'm happy either way. (And I wouldn't dream of raising this issue over Macedonian/Bulgarian...! 48% the same? or 88%? who knows? A perfect case study of why lexicostatistics aren't the be-all and end-all of the "dialect"/"language" debate. Mutual intelligibility seems a better 'objective' criterion, while admitting that the socio/etc aspects are also determinative.)Mundart (talk) 15:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, it takes more than just one factor usually, although, like you, I rate mutual intelligibility quite high on the list. Jamtska's been demoted to dialect status in ISO 639-3.  It wasn't even transferred over from Ethnologue to ISO.  I think that Joseph might like to call Tsakonian a separate language, but there may be non-linguistic (political) factors involved in why he doesn't make the leap.  (Taivo (talk) 20:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC))

 * I'm sure you hit the nail on the head there. Likewise for Geoff Horrocks. Mundart (talk) 22:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Honestly, I find the language/debate debate uninteresting, but I'm putting up samples of Tsakonian at http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/search/label/Tsakonian, so the reader can judge. Lexicostats are like IQ tests, which only tell you how good you are at doing IQ tests. From a purely linguistic POV, mutual intelligibility is the be-all and end-all—or rather, if it isn't, I don't see what else. But the issue of what counts as a separate language is seldom judged on purely linguistic criteria. I'm not objecting to it being called a dialect at all—everyone does it; I just would rather people keep in mind that, whether you call it a dialect or not, it is radically different from Standard Modern Greek. (I've gotten back to editing that 70% paper, btw.) Opoudjis (talk) 06:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I personally would prefer to call Tsakonian (and Cypriot, etc) languages (esp. since that would make for a nice Greek/Hellenic language family), but I have a feeling that wouldn't make me many friends among certain Greek traditionalists (e.g. of the Andriotis ilk: I can't help remark that his 1960 screed just was reprinted in the Dec 2008 issue of Philologos, with his assertion about Tsakonian being "accepted" by "all linguists" as part of the "unified language" of Greek, p.513). But what I'd really like to see is the kind of work that people (esp the Groningen group) are doing on Dutch/Scan/etc, as here. It's much harder to argue with the results of such methods than with an eyeball comparison of vocab from Swadesh lists, etc. (I agree with you about lexicostats, of course.)

 * Aside from the dubious old chestnut about IQ tests, while I'm certainly no champion of lexicostats, the issue of whether Greek should be called a single language or a family is exactly what makes the language/dialect question relevant, even though it is not really relevant for linguistic research in practice. The following convention is interesting: "Most linguists who use these numbers equated 1000 years of separate existence to becoming a separate language." In his PhD thesis (p. 481f.), Opoudjis mentions – with regard to the history of Modern Greek dialects – that Cypriot, Cretan, Pontic and Cappadocian are thought to have diverged from the 6th to 9th centuries on, and "characteristic dialect phenomena" can be shown as early as the 6th century AD. This means that by 1900, more than 1000 years had elapsed from the start of the divergence of these varieties, and thus it is justified to suspect that from a purely linguistic perspective, Cypriot, Cretan, Pontic, Cappadocian, and probably Griko (Italiot) as well, have sufficiently diverged from Standard Greek so that they could be classified as separate languages. What's more, according to Klingenschmitt 2005 (cited in German Wikipedia), Proto-Greek started to split up in the first half of the 2nd millennium BC (some might put Proto-Greek slightly earlier, but surely not later considering that Mycenaean Greek is not identical to Proto-Greek and already exhibits diagnostic features found in dialects attested in the first millennium). This means that by 500 BC, the 1000 years of divergence had certainly elapsed and it could be said that Ancient Greek was not a single language anymore per our established rule. Therefore, Greek may have been a language family rather than a single language for 2500 years now. The case of Armenian is similar: Generally considered a single language, some dialects are poorly intelligible to speakers of either standard, and it is completely conceivable that some dialects have been diverging from the standard for more than 1000 years now. The third so-called Indo-European isolate, Albanian, is now thought by some to be at least two languages, Gheg and Tosk (though my understanding is that Gheg has more internal variety, while Tosk is closer-knit, though there are outlying dialects especially in Italy and Greece), and the divergence probably started around 1000 AD. As a final example, German is notorious for its wealth of dialects, some of which (such as Walser German dialects) may well have been practically completely isolated from the main dialect continuum for more than 1000 years, and are expectedly divergent. In any case, the larger dialect groupings were already in place much more than 1000 years ago. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * A further point, specifically about Tsakonian: According to the thesis cited above, p. 484, phonologically, Tsakonian split from the Koine around 800 AD. Moreover, several grammatical innovations that had occurred before the 6th century AD are absent in Tsakonian. Even if the language does not continue Doric directly, more than a millennium had undoubtedly elapsed since the split by 1900. Per the argument above alone, its split from Standard Greek is definitely sufficiently ancient that it has to be called a separate language. Of course, other arguments support this too. Even though Tsakonian may continue a variant of Koine that was influenced by Doric (much like Italiot) rather than Doric directly, it has clearly followed a course of separate development for much more than 1000 years now (despite continuous contact with mainstream Greek), and obviously diverged quite radically from every other variety of Greek. Consequently, insisting that Modern Greek including Tsakonian and all other varieties is a single language is at least (!) on the same level as insisting that North Germanic, Slavic, Arabic (including all its spoken varieties), Quechuan, Aymaran, Chinese (not including Min, even) or Japonic (including Ryukyuan) is a single language. If "single language" is supposed to be meaningful as an indication of internal variation, this verdict plainly makes no sense, and is guided by ideology or dogma rather than fact. The internal diversity of Modern Greek – including its outlying varieties, with Tsakonian being the most divergent – is far larger than what "single language" implies. If Modern Greek did not have a literary tradition (a continuous tradition that's close to 2800 years old, and including Mycenaean, over 3400 years) and had not been described before the 19th century, it would not occur to any contemporary linguist inspecting the data to describe Modern Greek as a single language – it would be treated as a family as a matter of course. A family of closely related languages, to be sure, yet still independent, single languages. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 04:00, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Examples IPA
What calls itself "Tsakonian (IPA)" in the examples is clearly not using the International Phonetic Alphabet as all the characters are from the Greek alphabet. Is it supposed to be phonetic in some other sense?--Rumping (talk) 22:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is the Costakian notation. I will change the column heading.--Jpbrenna (talk) 22:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

some audio material
can be found here. It may be useful. [N.P. 188.4.71.43 (talk) 00:06, 5 April 2011 (UTC)]

Maniot
Is Maniot really closest to Tsakonian? Rem. from lead until we have a source. — kwami (talk) 03:28, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

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Nicholas 2019
Can you please add the full citation? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:57, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅--Calthinus (talk) 05:48, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Funny enough, on Friday I accidentally downloaded the PDF from here (I clicked on a Ghit and it downloaded automatically) – I suspected it's the same paper, but wasn't sure. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 06:05, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tsakonian language


text:
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Talk:Mathematics/Archive 4

Complex numbers/imaginary numbers
I am not entirely sure if this is a good place to discuss this but I wanted to conglomerate a discussion into a single location where everyone can find it. I did some reading on complex numbers and it seems to me that we have an awful lot of overkill on: Or maybe it's because I'm new to the subject. Can someone please advise. --Will2k 17:44, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Complex number
 * Imaginary unit
 * Imaginary number

 * Well, if you mean, should there be just one article, I don't think so. These articles, while related, are about different things. Imaginary unit is about the number i, the square root of −1. Imaginary number Is about all the so-called "pure" imaginary numbers (including i), of the form: ib where b is a real number. And Complex number is about the "mixed" numbers (including all the "pure" imaginary numbers), of the form: a + bi, where a and b are real numbers. So they are different but related, with the "imaginary unit" being a particular (and most "important") "Imaginary number", while the imaginary numbers are (an "important") subset of the "complex numbers". Consequently there is some overlap, but there's nothing really wrong with that. Paul August  ☎ 18:38, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Will2k, something you'll notice when studying math is that a lot of terms overlap, but more importantly that different subjects approach a topic in different manners. In the case of i, there are multiple ways to define it.  One is the algebraic definition, the solution to x2 = −1.  Another is to imagine complex numbers as the x-y plane, where the real numbers are the x axis and the imaginary numbers are the y axis.  These different articles are based on different definitions of the complex numbers. --Sean Kelly 03:13, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"the queen of the sciences"
Einstein may have called math "the queen of the sciences", but Gauss said so first. -- Gruepig 07:46, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Both Gauss and Einstein borrowed the 'queen of the sciences' quote from Thomas Aquinas. The original quote is 'Theologia scientiarum regina est, et philosphia serva suae est' (Theology is the queen of the sciences, and philosophy is her handmaid). It seems that this view was based on Boethius, who used the imagary of being a queen in describing philosophy. Gaus and Einstein were merely extending the metaphor to modern epistemology: classical philosophy, mediaeval theology and modern mathematics. Immanuel Kant described metaphysics as the queen of the sciences. I don't think mathematics can claim this title outright: such would lead to much feuding intra-campum. Gareth Hughes 13:12, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * In case there is ever dispute. . .a monarch need not be of the same race as the subjects. Mathematica may be queen of the sciences, but this does not imply that she IS a member of that category. Dpr 03:43, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On the worsening state of this article
I remember when I took biology back in high school, my teacher began by asking the class what biology was. When we all agreed that it was the study of life, he asked us what life was. By the end of the class, after agonizing our brains, we paradoxically knew that we could classify 99.9% of the things in this world as living or not, but could not seem to come up with a consistent definition of life.

If my mathematics professors in college had tried to get us nascent students to come up with a definition of mathematics at the beginning of our studies, there would have been a much smaller graduating class. Trying to define mathematics is as futile and meaningless as trying to define life. Instead, our professors taught us the different techniques and core concepts of mathematics, and left it up to us to figure out what the nature of mathematics was.

This little rant was spurred on by the worsening problem of people waxing philosophic in this article. The following paragraph was recently added:
 * While higher maths deviate from this definition, for most people math is a language designed to express quantities and the relationships between quantities, as well as a problem solving process designed to determine unknown quantities and quantitative relationships.

At the moment, the introduction to this article takes up the majority of my screen, and contains almost no actual information. I feel that most of it is philosophical babble; I myself have committed this sin by filling this talk page with discussions of whether mathematics is a science or not.

I would like to throw away the current introduction and replace it with something like
 * Mathematics is most commonly thought of as the study of numbers and equations, though in fact a wide variety of topics are covered by the discipline.

Along with a comment warning editors that anything they add to the introduction will be deleted by me. I was just going to post this and see what the reaction was... I'll wait until I'm in a sour mood to do any real damage. --Sean Kelly 07:19, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Sean - the recently added paragraph that you disliked (and I agree with you on this) has now been removed. By all means try to improve the introduction - but I hope you are not serious about adding "a comment warning editors that anything they add to the introduction will be deleted". For obvious reasons, that is at best un-Wikipedian, and could be construed as an open invitation to an edit war. Gandalf61 08:59, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

 * There is quite a strong case for strengthening the whole article, with a re-write of substantive parts. Charles Matthews 10:19, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Math is Hard
i think math is hard. i think we should talk about how hard math is.

 * I think that comment applies to everything and is therefore not relevant here (although it would have to be said by different people to make the "I" accurate). Brianjd | Why restrict HTML? | 04:43, 2005 Apr 8 (UTC)

Tautologous definition?
Mathematics, often abbreviated maths (British English) or math (American English), is the investigation of axiomatically defined abstract structures using symbolic logic and mathematical notation.

By definition, "mathematics" uses "mathematical notation".

Conciseness
I just removed the following which was just added to the intro:

Mathematics, often abbreviated maths in British English or math in American English, by one strict and concise academic definition, Mathematics is a logical methodical process of dealing with quantification, numbers, operators, variables, sets, outcomes, definitions, theorems, and axioms. The field of mathematics started very primitively with counting, addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. It encompasses those primitive roots and teachings, but has progressed such that now the leading mathematicians are exploring purely hypothetical areas as well as purely mathematical explorations of empirical areas, such as mathematical physics. All areas of mathematics from its roots to its most current and abstract from, are continuing to be taught and explored by budding mathematicians and professionals.

Mathematics is quite often based on empirical, or on hypothetical axioms, and definitions. However, even when in its purest hypothetical form, the axioms must be defined by using very understandable ideas. Those ideas could be described from the world around us, or purely described by hypothetical idea on top of hypothetical idea, on top of hypothetical idea.

Mathematics is scientific because of both its basis on empirical observations, and on the methodical, logical, and especially repeatable, process one uses to research mathematics and all sciences. It is not purely an empirical science nor is it purely an offshoot of logic. It is its own area of study for the pure enjoyment and gain of knowledge. There are many mathematicians practicing the science purely for the artistic value of the equations.

It is, as are all sciences, heavily dependent on logic, and at times empirical observations. Some observations are strictly observations of outcomes based on calculations of hypothetically defined axioms. Often even those calculations rely on primitive mathematical operations derived long ago by the first observations of mathematicians on the world around them.

All science would be useless without mathematics.

Mathematics differs from the strictly empirical sciences by the primitive nature of its axioms. Physics and Mathematics overlap in places. By definition, empirical sciences must rely on observations of empirical means to verify the mathematical models.

Our knowledge in many fields of mathematics is constantly growing, through research and application. Mathematics is usually regarded as an important tool for science, even though the development of mathematics is not necessarily done with science in mind (See pure mathematics and applied mathematics.).

The specific structures that are investigated by mathematicians sometimes do have their origin in natural and social sciences, including particularly physics and economics. Some contemporary mathematics also has its origins in computer science and communication theory.

Not only is it poorly written, but it is the exact kind of overzealousness that one editor spent a long time editing out. If you want to start a discussion of the nature of mathematics, please do it in a forum somewhere or, if you can write it in a concise manner, in the section titled (appropriately), On the nature and scope of mathematics. Anywhere but where you just put it. --Sean κ. ⇔ 22:33, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I would like to add that I'm not trying to start a revert war or be un-Wikipedian. If you put it back, I won't revert it again.  --Sean κ. ⇔ 22:35, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * However, I will, and so will others, so please take what he said seriously. – Smyth\talk 09:58, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Remove discussion
Okay, honestly I'm getting sick of the "Is math a _______?" discussion. I think we can all agree that we know what Mathematics is, and that this argument is turning out to be fruitless, given the medium we're working in. So can we please remove any discussion of "Is math a _____?" from the article, and instead just link to the appropriate page? I'd be happy to concede my side of the argument if it prevented this page from getting defaced again. --Sean κ. ⇔ 22:49, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * What exactly do you object to, in the current form of the article? There is not much point editing on the basis of trying to prevent further edits, so can we instead just discuss any weaknesses remaining? Charles Matthews 11:51, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess I was going to say to prevent further edits :(. It seems to be provoking people to contribute, not factual analysis, but their philosophical hot air.  Maybe the page is just having a bad week.  --16:03, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * It's close to the Main Page, and people are going to come and edit. There was one editor with an axe to grind about 'science', very much as I said above. Charles Matthews 16:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I think the thing to do is to work on the Misconceptions part, to try to clarify what is said. Also, turn those dull, old-fashioned lists into some better 'themes'. Charles Matthews 17:27, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. But I'm still going to take the line, Some hold that since mathematical knowledge is not fundamentally empirical, mathematics is not itself one of the sciences, however closely allied out of the intro.  --Sean κ. ⇔ 18:00, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Clap clap clap clap. You bozos have managed to define mathematics as "nothing". Clap clap clap. Axiomactic system. Even the definitoin of and axiom is missing any real definitions.

When you figure out what mathematics is. Please provide the definition.

By the way, developing the axioms is what mathematics is as much as the rote calculations. Describe how mathematicians develop axioms. Please. EDN

 * If you are making the point that the origin of axiomatic systems is not something shallow, then you are making a good point. And probably not one that we have addressed anywhere directly on WP. On the other hand in order to define mathematics one has to deal with tautology, apparently low content of axiomatics, Russell's definition by quantifier structure, all as advances in the overall philosophy, rather than retreats. Charles Matthews 09:37, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Tell you what. We'll provide an uncontended definition of Mathematics for this article if you provide an uncontended definiton of God for that article. —Sean κ. ⇔ 12:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mathematics/Archive 4


text:
Broome Regional Prison

Broome Regional Prison is an Australian prison in Broome, Western Australia. It is one of two prisons in Western Australia's Kimberley region.

In 2012 it was announced that the prison would be closed in 2015 following the opening of the West Kimberley Regional Prison in Derby, but this plan was shelved in 2015.

title: Broome Regional Prison


text: User talk:68.77.11.77

title: User talk:68.77.11.77


text: Category:Pleistocene

title: Category:Pleistocene


text:
User talk:Solidpeg

Welcome!

Hello Solidpeg, welcome to Wikipedia! I am impressed how you improved the Surfactant article. Keep up the good work! You might want to add yourself to the New user log. A page I wished I had found sooner is Community Portal. — S e b a s ti a n  ( T ) 06:46, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)

Salutations!
Hello there !!! Welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Randy Johnston 21:17, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:Solidpeg