text:
User talk:M. Dingemanse/Archive4

Algeria
Hey man! Great to hear from you. I've been lying low lately, but that giant empty space finally got to me... ;) Maps in Algerian civil conflict would be great; some possibilities:
 * the Triangle of Death;
 * election results of 1991, and maybe 1997 (I'd need to find a data source);
 * massacres in 1997-1998 with over 50 victims (see List of Algerian massacres of the 1990s; I've found details of most, though not necessarily all)
 * locations of various armed groups (difficult! would take more research to establish)

What do you think? - Mustafaa 00:48, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I can make several — it looks like you have produced enough text to fit in more than one :). Well then — the first one (Triangle of Death) in any case, for starters. The election results, well, if I have a map with the district boundaries (I've already asked User:Golbez, the creator of Image:Algeria provinces.png). The 1997-1998 massacres I can do too, if you can provide me with sources. Do you know of any places where I could look for maps of Algeria (preferably in vector format)?  — mark ✎ 01:14, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

OK, how's this? I think it covers all the massacres of over 50 people in 1997-1998: Thalit			~ Latitude 35.8856 Longitude 2.7508 Haouch Khemisti		~ Latitude 36.5406 Longitude 3.0853 Dairat Labguer		 Latitude 35.7058 Longitude 4.5419 Si-Zerrouk		~ Latitude 36.5667 Longitude 3.1500 Oued el-Had		~ Latitude 36.2908 Longitude 2.0678 Souhane			~ Latitude 36.4893 Longitude 3.2314 Beni-Ali			~ Latitude 36.4256 Longitude 2.8767 Rais			Latitude 36.6167 Longitude 3.1333 Beni-Messous		Latitude 36.7833 Longitude 2.9833 Guelb el-Kebir		~ Latitude 36.2347 Longitude 3.3039 Bentalha			Latitude 36.6692 Longitude 3.0953 Sidi el-Antri		 Latitude 35.3758 Longitude 1.3131 Kherarba			Latitude 35.7167 Longitude 1.2167 Sahnoun			Latitude 35.8833 Longitude 1.3167 El-Abadel		~ Latitude 35.8833 Longitude 1.3167 Ouled-Tayeb		Latitude 35.8833 Longitude 1.3167 Ramka			Latitude 35.8500 Longitude 1.3333 Sidi-Hamed		~ Latitude 36.6194 Longitude 3.2253 Oued Bouaicha		~ Latitude 35.2425 Longitude 3.1414 Baloul			Latitude 34.9833 Longitude 0.4667 Tadjena			Latitude 36.3219 Longitude 1.1372

- Mustafaa 21:18, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Very useful. Note that it might take a week (maybe two), as I am pretty busy with other (non-Wikipedia) things these days. But I'll get to it eventually. Thanks!  — mark ✎ 21:32, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cool! It'll probably take that long to get the article into reasonable shape... Still no 1990/1 results, but I found the 1997 results at Adam Carr's site:. - (Mustafaa not signed in) 67.115.155.101 03:26, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Map
You said you wanted it in vector format; is an XCF (Gimp format) sufficient? By that, I mean, if you use The GIMP, that would be preferable, but if not, I can probably convert it into whatever format you need. Right now, it's basically a bitmap. I wonder if the Gimp could convert that. But yeah, I have a blank version with the lines. How would I best get it to you? And thanks for the kind words, yours is only the second compliment I've gotten on here, so it's nice to know people appreciate my work. :) --Golbez

 * Sorry, this month has been absolute hell so far. I'll get it to you soon. Sorry! --Golbez 19:04, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

 * I just sent it along. If you need help with any of the other maps, or want me to do something extra with this map, let me know. :) --Golbez 07:46, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Those three (Sahnoun etc.) are small neighboring villages which were attacked in a single night; they're probably too close together to differentiate. Sounds cool about the Ajami - but you didn't give the site address! ;) - Mustafaa 20:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Ha, just saw it — I added it.  — mark ✎ 21:09, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

NYPL pictures
Hi, I noticed your note to Xed about the NYPL picture database. I got really interested - but are you sure these pictures are public domain? Looking at, it says "The contents of this website are made available for individual private study, scholarship and research only. Any other use, including but not limited to any type of publication or commercial use, is prohibited without the payment of usage fees and the prior written permission of The New York Public Library as well as any owners of rights in the materials, if applicable." Did I miss something? / Alarm 13:04, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi Alarm. I found out about the NYPL via a posting on the village pump by User:Alterego: (extlink because I'm lazy). I must confess that I didn't look into their copyright statements myself; but User:SPUI did, and remarked that
 * Stuff from there should be evaluated on its own - if it's from before 1923 of from before 1964 and not renewed ([8] (http://www.scils.rutgers.edu/~lesk/copyrenew.html)), it's PD.
 * Since I know that images related to Dahomey and Congo (and, in general, Africa) in virtually all cases will come from books from before 1923, I didn't talk about this at Xed's Talk. But probably you're right. I'll look into it and wait a bit to see where the discussion on the Village Pump goes. And I'll notify Xed of this discussion too. Thanks for your notice!  — mark ✎ 13:18, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Move done.
Should be OK. Let me know if anything went wrong... Ta bu shi da yu 13:41, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

adminship?
Hi Mark, I would like to nominate you to be an administrator. Would you accept if I did so? -  Banyan Tree  18:36, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm flattered that you'd be willing to do that. Yes, I would accept, since I would be able to use my wikitime more effectively and I find myself removing vandalism anyway. Maybe you should make note of the fact that I'm here since August 2004, and that I have edited from User:Strangeloop from August 14, 2004 to October 18, 2004. From then on, I've been editing under my real name.  — mark ✎ 09:49, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, I've nominated you. Please accept at WP:VFA.  Good luck! -   Banyan Tree  16:43, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, no, smelling lovely
No, no, I'm still smelling lovely after the undeserved roses you covered me with, Mark! Thanks for being the first past the post on the Colley Cibber vote, too—I was amazed and excited to see people complimenting my 18th-century cruft. Mmmmm, coompliments are good. (Incidentally, what a ticker-tape parade your request for adminship turned into!) Bishonen | Talk 17:09, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

new CSB template?
Hi Mark, I can't seem to stop thinking of ways to make the CSB template more effective. Even though Africa definitely took a huge step forward, I'm pretty close to a decision that CotW is the wrong way to go about it, given the spectrum of needs, and that Xed was on to something by insisting on a 'country carousel'. I've come up with a rough template idea that I've put up on my work page. I'd appreciate some feedback before putting it up for consideration at WP:CSB, and basically proposing the death of CSB CotW. -  Banyan Tree  20:23, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow, it looks great! I think that this is going to be a move in the right direction for CSB. People are not limited to one article this way; it is more inviting to people who just want to get a quick view of what can be done. The biggest question of course is: how are we going to decide which articles are put on the template? And how do we mobilize the CSB participants to take part in this process? But really, you are on to something. This is a Good Thing!  — mark ✎ 23:13, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This seems as good a place as any to jump in.... I was involved in the discussions in the early days of CSB, surrounding its setting up as a project, but while I've created articles that fall within its remit since then I haven't been much involved in the workings of the project itself. I like BanyanTree's new template system very much and you can consider me remobilised for the process. I think CSB will go from strength to strength—the opportunities for articles to write seem to me to be still almost limitless—it's like Wikipedia in the early days when there was no coverage of whole vast areas of human knowledge. I'm just reading a book about the Trobriand Islands and Wikipedia is devoid of information on them. The specific reason I'm leaving you this message is to see what you think about User:Xed/draft5. While it does have plenty of missing sections some great work has gone into it and I wonder what you and BanyanTree think needs to be done before it can be moved into the main article space. Obviously Xed is no longer in a position to complete the work he was doing on it, rather unfortunately in my opinion, but it would be good to see the article 'go live' soon. By the way, congratulations in advance on your impending elevation to admin status! — Trilobite (Talk) 09:34, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Great to have you on board again. Incidentally, thanks for weighing in at Xed's arbitration. I didn't know how to say what I wanted to say, and you put it very well. As for User:Xed/draft5, this should certainly not be left alone. Maybe it is a good idea to comment out the empty sections and to go live with the content there is already (which is a lot, actually). I can see at least one real problem: the references are incomplete. I'm sure Xed used much more sources than the three extlinks there are now; so we need to include this sources. I'll see if I can email him and ask about it, but I think this is not the best time. I can very well imagine that Xed is tired of everything about Wikipedia right now (I certainly would be, in his case) and that he really can't be bothered at the moment.  — mark ✎ 10:16, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you about commenting out or removing the empty sections, as it would take quite a bit of research to actually write them, and we might as well put the large quantity that's already there into the article space rather than wait for this. I too noticed the lack of references and it is a real problem. Xed noted that he'd researched the article at SOAS, and hopefully he kept a list of books he made major use of which can be incorporated into the article either by an email from him a bit later or perhaps if he comes back after the ban expires. While citing sources is of course very important, I think in the absence of explicit references it would be okay to just put the article up without any, and hope that some are incorporated by one means or another eventually. I think well-researched accurate content without references is, while not best practice, preferable to no content at all, so personally I'd be happy for it to go up without sources cited. — Trilobite (Talk) 10:50, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * You convinced me. Let's do it without the sources for now; I was letting perfect get in the way of better. This content is just too good to leave it languishing in /draft5.  — mark ✎ 16:49, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * A more distressing fact however is that most of the images contain no source information and no copyright tags. Xed, we need you.  — mark ✎ 02:09, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Weird
Strange indeed. There was another very similar vandal on A.H. a few minutes before, and i assumed it is the same person changing IP adresses, hence i blocked without an additional warning. When i put the note, I got a "edit conflict". I addedmy note to the window on the top half of the edit conflict message, and hit save page again. This may have confused the server. But it is indeed the first time I have seen such a thing. -- Chris 73 Talk 13:32, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

African philosophy
I may have misunderstood, but why do you think that African philosophy is in need of review or attention? Is it because it's unfinished, or for some other reason? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 16:17, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * It is great. That's why first of all it didn't belong any more in the 'Requests for expansion' section. I placed it in the 'Requests for review/attention' section because it might still benefit from other editors taking a look at it. To clarify, I look at the four sections as a gradual process. If an article doesn't exist, it's in the first one. If a stub is created or existent but needs to be expanded, it's in the second one. Once an article is considerably expanded by someone, it needs to be reviewed (a bit like Peer Review). Then, if it is judged to be 'Satisfactory', it should be moved into that section, which is a sort of CSB 'accomplished tasks' list.
 * To be sure, I was astonished at the length and quality of the article — you did a superb job. As a matter of fact I was going to review it more closely somewhere in the next few days.  — mark ✎ 16:29, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, thanks; that's a relief. There's still a lot to be done (and I'm qualified at best to write only part of it).  I've tried to drum up some extra help, but with no luck so far (if I tell you that I've often been approached by students and by journal editors as the only person in the U.K. who knows anything about African philosophy, you'll appreciate the problem (I'm sure that I'm not, incidentally, though there can be very few of us).  Any contributions gratefully received.
 * In fat I've left the article alone for a little while, because I've been filling in the gaps reegarding individual philosophers; I've created a couple of articles, and added to the articles on a couple more, but there's a long way to go. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 16:57, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

'fraid so Mark
I gotta spend some more time in the Real World (tm). Don't worry, noones done anything to me. It's a decision I've made. I need to spend more time with God and the Bible. Wikipedia is taking this time away from me! I'll probably be around doing anonymous edits. Thanks for your kind words though :-) - Ta bu shi da yu 13:39, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * You too Mark :-) God bless. Ta bu shi da yu 00:13, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Bambara, N'Ko
Hi, thanks to your todo I found out that Ngo should be spelled N'Ko. :) I'm actually adding some info on the Bambara language and a little bit on other Malian languages. I'm also trying to get the Bambara Wikipedia started, although I don't speak Bambara (yet). :) G-u-a-k-@ 18:50, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Twi
Your moving of Twi to Twi language was unneeded, Twi is not ambiguous. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 19:17, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)

The reason most languages are at Foo (language) is because foo is most often also a nationality, this is not the case with Twi so no such disambiguation is needed, this is the custom for other such cases, e.g. Toki Pona and Esperanto. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 21:26, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)

Congratulations
Hi Mark. I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate you for your impending adminship, and welcome you to the cabal.

Your new friends as an admin will be the rollback link on page diffs, Special:Undelete/PageTitleHere, and Special:Blockip. Protocol apparently dictates that you only use the rollback link to revert vandalism, and when you're just reverting someone over a content dispute, you do it manually. That almost condones revert wars, which I think is a bit silly.

If you need any guidance at all on how to do the more complicated admin tasks (like page history merging), don't hesitate to drop me a line. - Mark 08:38, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * No, I don't mind at all you using "mark" in your signature. Firstly, I only ever use the plain old standard signature, which looks significantly different to yours. Secondly, this was not my original username anyway. I adopted it (with the help of a developer) while there were already several Marks editing Wikipedia, so I don't really have a 100% claim to the name 'Mark'. :) - Mark 01:01, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations, Mark!
Congratulations! It's my pleasure to let you know that, consensus being reached, you are now an administrator. You should read the relevant policies and other pages linked to from the administrators' reading list before carrying out tasks like deletion, protection, banning users, and editing protected pages such as the Main Page. Most of what you do is easily reversible by other sysops, apart from page history merges and image deletion, so please be especially careful with those. You might find the new administrators' how-to guide helpful. Cheers! -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 19:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

not at all — I hope your addiction worsens :oD dab (ᛏ) 21:40, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * My pleasure, Mark. Congratulations and enjoy! SlimVirgin 21:59, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * Congratulations! Enjoy your new evil superpowers.  dbenbenn | talk 22:32, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations! I know you'll be a great admin! Jayjg (talk) 22:55, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * More congratulations! I didn't even know that you were being considered as an administrator. I hope you still can contribute the good stuff, as well as combating evil (see Dangermouse)! Gareth Hughes 23:00, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations, and you are quite welcome. It's always good to see new admins. -- M e r o v i n g i a n (t) (c) (w) 23:23, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

Your thanks just made my point about your courtesy. Congratulations and good fortune. --Theo (Talk) 00:08, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations, and thanks for the note! I've seen your work around and been impressed—and now you have a mop and bucket to clean up anything other than mind that spills on the wiki. :-) Mindspillage (spill yours?) 00:24, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Glad to see you made it. The more good admins, the better! Jordi·✆ 10:03, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Very sorry about my removal of the word g with ames
My school has this net nanny thing that removes the word g with ames out of every single document. It can be very annoying and it was the cause for this error. I am sorry but I did not mean to vandalize the page. I do not know how to get rid of this so I'll only edit the page at home from now on.
 * [above comment posted by 16:39, 16 Mar 2005]

 * Thanks for explaining! I didn't think you were a vandal because your other contributions looked serious. BTW, have you considered registering? Registering makes communication with fellow editors easier and enables you to take credit for your work. There are a lot more benefits, please refer to here for the details. Best regards,  — mark ✎ 09:11, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Your special effect
I noticed your new quote box on your user page and was filled with envy: I just had to make my own! Thanks for straightening out my page. I hope your admin badge will always been shiny! Gareth Hughes 17:10, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

History of South Africa
Hello, I saw that you recently edited History of South Africa. I'm attempting to completely rewrite the article to deal with the fairly shaky organisation of the current version. I would appreciate all assistance you can offer with edits to my interim version before I post it on the History of South Africa article. The version I am working on can be accessed here. Thank you so much! Páll 09:27, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll look into it!  — mark ✎ 09:56, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Verb serializing
Reference
 * No problem. I bumped into the article when I decided to link Serial verb construction in the Chinese grammar and Coverb articles.  I didn't even know someone had created it already.  It's good to see Wikipedia at work. :)
 * Anyway, I think the article title is better left as Serial verb construction since that is the standard linguistic terminology. Doing a quick Google check, "serial verb construction" returns 662 results while "verb serializing" only returns 13.  "verb serialization" does come close at 532 results though.  Also, the top results of a "serial verb" search all use it within the context of serial verb construction.  A better solution would probably be to make redirects from those terms to serial verb construction. --Umofomia 10:19, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I think it's better to leave the article as Serial verb construction rather than moving it to Verb serialization. All the references I've seen on it refer to it as serial verb construction, though I don't know if you have encountered differently.  We can instead make verb serialization a redirect to serial verb construction.
 * BTW, thanks for the link to the linguistic articles in need of work. I might make some contributions to them when I get the chance.  --Umofomia 10:57, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you
Hey Mark, I'm writing to thank you for your vote in my adminship nomination, and for your very kind comments and congrats. Your support is very much appreciated, and I'll do my best to live up to it! Best wishes, SlimVirgin 03:17, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Your African language maps are impressive.
Ground 14:52, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow, thanks! I'm glad you like them. By the way, thanks for listing your Firefox extensions — I'm using Mouse Gestures now and I like it! Cheers,  — mark ✎ 17:36, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hwla
Nice work! That's an impressive page, and probably the first reference of its kind anywhere online. Another Ethnologue error bites the dust as well ;) - Mustafaa 02:06, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Volta-Congo and others
Hi! I've hit your Volta-Congo redirect to the inexistant Volta-Congo languages, as part of the Wiki Syntax cleanup effort. Such redirects (I've also found Atlantic-Congo) are normally meant to be deleted, but I can appreciate how these complement the other language redirects. Is there any chance you could whip up a stub or two for these languages, so the redirects can point to a valid target? Fbriere 07:02, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * See! It has turned blue! Thanks for your sensible way of handling this. I'll look into the others as well (but I can't tell how soon). Kind regards,  — mark ✎ 15:52, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Great! Any chance you could do Southern Bantoid languages (Southern Bantoid) as well?  Thanks!  Fbriere 19:56, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Just did it!  — mark ✎ 22:00, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Here's one more to keep you busy this weekend: Narrow Bantu→Narrow Bantu languages --Fbriere 03:21, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Also: Eastern Sudanic→Eastern Sudanic languages. With Atlantic-Congo→Atlantic-Congo languages, this would seem to be the last of them.  (Whew!)  --Fbriere 09:29, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks again for all your work, Mark! --Fbriere 04:28, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Not at all! You know, I was thinking 'gotta write those articles some time' when I created those redirects. Now I did. Again, thanks for your sensible way of handling this.  — mark ✎ 09:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

greetings by 84.175.247.128
hello mark. nice to meet you. at the moment, i'm trying to translate the enormus list ISO 639 into german. along these work, i setup intlanguage links (thats why you've find me). normally, i'm de:Schaengel89 in the german wikipedia. keep on writing 84.175.247.128 18:37, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sic semper tyrannis
Thanks Mark, I won't deny it's kind of cool to see a risorgimento breaking out, but, with the article being in my space and all, I guess I won't vote, personally. Raul's argument that ETPH won't do because he insists he must have an FA makes you wonder, doesn't it, how it would have gone if the contributors had voted "support" when ETPH was on FAC, instead of larking about and shouting it wasn't comprehensive...? But, nah, there were enough other people ready to object in any case. Hey, btw, why not use something totally unlikely and made-up-sounding like Nafaanra language for 1 April? --Bischånen|Tåk 15:36, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, that sure sounds like a great idea. Along the same lines, what do you think of featuring some obscure Restoration comedy the very title of which has been characterized as a lewd pun by a certain encyclopedia?
 * As for not voting, I see your point. Then make others vote (I'm referring to your literary cabal)! Frankly, I don't understand Raul654's position. I hope the community will be able to convince him.  — mark ✎ 15:55, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, nominating The Country Wife did occur to me, on the double indemnity April fool's jape principle ("He puts out a rumour of what? You're kidding! Aha, look at the date!"), though I'm not sure it's entirely flattering to get my entire output considered for 1 April Colley Cibber . It's a little unbecoming in me to canvas on IRC, at least to canvas any more on IRC than I already have you an IRC'er, Mark ? --Bischånen|Tåk 16:37, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Accident at WP:FAC
There was an editing accident (probably MySQL error or cut-n-paste error) on Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates that resulting in the page contents being duplicated. A number of edits had occurred by the time it was noticed, but I tried to preserve everything while removing duplicate material. Just in case, mosey on over and check if your vote stuck. If you have any questions, respond on my talk page. Thanks!

-- Phyzome is Tim McCormack 20:53, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)

title: User talk:M. Dingemanse/Archive4


text:
Braddish Billings

Braddish Billings (September 23, 1783 – April 8, 1864) was an early settler in the Ottawa area, for whom the community of Billings Bridge was named.

He was born in Ware, Massachusetts in 1783, but moved to the Brockville area with his family when he was 9. He later worked cutting down white pine trees along the Ottawa River and transporting the logs down river. He also served on the Bytown Mechanics' Institute executive.

In 1812, Billings moved to the Ottawa area and settled on a farm south of the Rideau River in what was then the Township of Gloucester. In 1830, a bridge was built over the Rideau River near the Billings Farm to make it easier to transport produce into town.

Family
He married Lamira Dow of Merrickville in 1813. The couple had nine children: Sabra, Cynthia, Lamira, Braddish II, Elkanah, Samuel, Sarah (Sally), Charles, Hiram, two of whom died: Cynthia and Hiram.

The couple's oldest son, Major Bradish Billings II (1847–1891), a pupil of architect Henry A. Sims in Philadelphia from 1863–1866, opened an architecture office in Ottawa in 1870 and later worked as a public servant with the Interior Department 1872-1885. Bradish Billings Jr. served in the North West Rebellion of 1885 and was promoted to Major in 1892. W. Ross Billings also became an architect in the Ottawa area. Elkanah Billings became a naturalist and Canada's first paleontologist.

Legacy
Billings died in 1864 and is buried on the Billings Estate which has been preserved as a historical site and museum. The Billings House, on the site, was built in 1829. The area where Billings had his farm and the nearby bridge over the river are now known as Billings Bridge.

The City of Ottawa owns and operates the former Billings family homestead as a museum and park located on over 8 acre in Alta Vista. The site tells the story of the five generations of Billings family members who lived on the site before the municipality assumed ownership. The museum runs numerous programs for families throughout the year and operates a tea service on the lawn in the back gardens from May through August.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Braddish Billings


text:
Talk:Tiny BASIC

ESP32
https://hackaday.com/2016/10/27/basic-interpreter-hidden-in-esp32-silicon/

There seems to be a Tiny BASIC in the ROM of every ESP32. -- 95.99.41.100 (talk) 13:48, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

The virtues(?) of SW copyright
A recent contribution to the article reads as follows: "Tiny BASIC is a set of computer tools that started the software writing (programming) business. Any software written in Tiny basic language could be copyrighted. Books were written that contained programs that are still in use today because the electronic means used to execute,(run) those programs hasn't changed at all. Few if any programmers actually copyrighted their software in those days but those that did were true visionaries considering the fact that computers are a large part of life today."

I must admit I'm a little unsure as to whether the above passage actually represents a properly encyclopedic, NPOV, piece of information. Please comment, folks. --Wernher 11:41, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * It's nonsense. Mirror Vax 19:25, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

The article currently references the CLI when refering to virtual machiens. To me this seems to specific as the CLI is in no way related to TInyBASIC. To reference the CLI implies that the article should also be referencing the JVM, Parrot, etc -- all would be equally valid... --Olliej 05:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. It's nonsense, virtual machines and CLI came years after of Tiny BASIC. Tiny BASIC was only a simple tokenizing interpreter. GermanX (talk) 12:34, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

This might explain why there's a link to "Copyleft" in the See Also section. It sounds like it doesn't belong in here, as this predates any concept of GPL. SineSwiper (talk) 17:16, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it is there because, as mentioned in the Copyleft article (did you even bother to follow the link?), the earliest known use of the term was in connection with TinyBASIC. DES (talk) 15:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I found a recent very interesting version - can't find it quickly now - by G Smothers. Very interesting expression parsing. It works with QBASIC! It doesn't use computed goto which breaks my heart but the parsing method appears so simple and solid even I may be able to figure out how to add this feature. Compile this with FreeBasic and it goes like a bat out of hell.159.105.81.31 (talk) 19:29, 6 December 2010 (UTC)It was Geek Basic Software.About 200- lines of simple code that works. If you stay within its parameters it works well, might be an easy jump off for a tiny compiler (probably not by me but maybe).159.105.81.31 (talk) 19:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

String not defined
All terms named on the right-hand side of the grammar are defined, except for  - I've been right back to  to see if it went missing at some point, but it seems was never present. -- Red rose64 🌹 (talk) 22:09, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

8008 basic
the article contained several references to "8008 basic". there is no evidence that such a thing ever existed (it cited Weaver and Tindall work, but this was not a real thing - it was an academic theoretical project that was never implemented, and had no relation to tiny basic). the text also mentioned datapoint, which does not even use the 8008. i removed those references, with appropriate summaries.

it also claimed that "The prevalence of BASIC on the first generation of home computers is an outcome of Tiny BASIC" (an anon edit), citing a source that does not actually support the claim (. i removed this too.

peace - קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 21:46, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Backus-Naur nonsense
That section seems like an overcomplicated way of describing a very simple language, understandable off-the-cuff only to readers already versed in a particular theoretical way of representing grammar and programming language structure. Both trying to comprehend it as-is, and with the "help" of the lengthy and convoluted linked article on the form itself (which runs to many printed pages in length), has left me pretty cold. Given that tinyBASIC itself would fit within one to one-and-a-half regular 80x25 screens of DOS text (or in other words: probably shorter than how it's currently represented in the article, and a pretty small fraction of the explanatory article), it surely shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to give us a layman-parseable plain English explanation, should it? It's got like a dozen instructions and is otherwise a pretty simple subset of the already pretty easy to describe regular BASIC (which is, of course, a "beginner's" language).

EG: Each line of code starts with a unique index number (entering a line with a duplicate number overwrites the original with that number); written after the number - and/or a separating colon - is a single instruction or compound set of sub-instructions, and optionally some data (numbers, a string, a one-letter variable, a port or memory address, a line-number... etc...) for that/those instruction(s) to process. The available instructions and their actions are explained in a table below, and the values they work on have to be generally of a form -blah-, or as described in that selfsame table. When a program is run, it starts from the lowest entered line number and then proceeds in ascending line number order to the highest, whereupon it ends, unless the flow is modified by a GOTO or other branch instruction.

Boom. 146.199.60.36 (talk) 17:16, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

The Backus-Naur stuff might not be the most readable way to describe the language, but I recently found out that it has the virtue of being lifted verbatim from the original author's article in Dr. Dobb's Journal of January 1976. Which is one way to avoid accusations of original research! I think on that historical basis it should stay, even if someone has the wit and energy to write a clearer description of the language at some point in the future.

I also note that the omission of a string definition noticed by Redrose64 a couple of years back (and since corrected in the Wiki article) was a mistake copied over from that publication.

Cyningstan (talk) 15:58, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tiny BASIC


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Craig Seal

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. Jinian 15:31, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Craig Seal
A teenager who claims to have various titles and an "Honourary [sic] Doctorate in Divinity". "Chief Executive of the Dexillon Corporation", "Dexillon" having the curious distinction of scoring no hits whatever at Google, other than this site, which is actually just a vanity URL for this one, and which is merely a set of links elsewhere. "Further information regarding His Lordship can be obtained by visiting" some other vanity URL, whose reality is this freebie. We go there and learn (among the cod-aristocratic mumbo-jumbo) that he's a student.

I hardly need add that Google doesn't show much for "Craig Seal", either.

This is vanity raised to a stunning new level, folks. -- Hoary 11:43, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC) PS, delete. PPS and delete the redirect page Lord Seal too.

 * Delete, vanity. Xezbeth  12:34, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, delusional fantasy. User, having created a username of Dexillon, appears to be attempting to sabotage the VfD process. Average Earthman 13:17, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, almost remarkable level of pointless sophomoric delusional fantasy. Barno 15:09, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * BJAODN, anyone? Radiant_* 21:26, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, vanity. Megan1967 02:28, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, Nothing wrong with the references, the order has been recognised as one of a definable nature as for its titles to appear in holders passports in the UK. We would also point out that although the church of seven planes may give ordinations freely, to our knowledge none of the related persons have any connections with the church except membership of the corresponding order. We would also point out that the church in question has been recognised and has legal status as a church in the united states, therefore, regardless of personal beliefs this is a legal church and a legal order. We therefore vote to keep. Dexillon 00:13, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * "We", Dexillon? How many of you are there, and why doesn't each have his or her own username? Incidentally, I note that all your "contributions" to WP have been related to the seeming nobodies Seal and Hudson, and the ludicrous "Order" of which they claim membership. -- Hoary 01:38, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)
 * Delete. Funny, but still nn, vanity. Vlad M V  ٭ talk 15:21, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Esztergom–Budapest

The Archdiocese of Esztergom–Budapest (Archidioecesis Strigoniensis–Budapestinensis) is a Latin Church archdiocese and primatial seat of the Catholic Church in Hungary and the metropolitan see of one of Hungary's four Latin Church ecclesiastical provinces.

The archdiocese's archbishop retains the title of "Primate", which gives this see precedence over all other Latin Hungarian dioceses, including the fellow Metropolitan Archbishops of Eger, Kalocsa–Kecskemét and Veszprém, but the incumbent may be individually (and temporarily) outranked if one of them holds a (higher) cardinalate. Its current Archbishop is Péter Erdő.

Duality and special churches
Its double name reflects that it has (co-)cathedral sees in two major Hungarian cities, the old primatial archiepiscopal seat Esztergom and the present national capital Budapest. These two prominent cities fall under the tutelage of one archdiocese due to Hungary's early history wherein Esztergom was one of the former capitals of the Kingdom of Hungary (much larger than the present republic – roughly the eastern half of the Habsburg monarchy).

The archiepiscopal Cathedral and primatial see is Nagyboldogasszony és Szent Adalbert főszékesegyház, in Esztergom-Vár.

The co-cathedral, a minor basilica and World Heritage Site, is St. Stephen's Basilica in Budapest-Szentistvánváros.

The archdiocese has a second minor basilica, Kisboldogasszony-templom, Máriaremete, at Székesfehérvár, in Fejér county.

Statistics
As of 2016, it pastorally served 1,249,000 Catholics (60.1% of 2,078,000 population) covering 1,543 km2 in 188 parishes and 28 missions with (in 2014) 435 priests (254 diocesan, 181 religious), 23 deacons, 725 lay religious (266 brothers, 459 sisters) and 38 seminarians.

Ecclesiastical province
The Metropolitan's suffragan sees are the Latin bishops of:
 * Roman Catholic Diocese of Győr
 * Roman Catholic Diocese of Székesfehérvár

The former Roman Catholic Diocese of Hajdúdorog, until then also its suffragan, was elevated in 2015 to Hungarian Greek Catholic Archeparchy of Hajdúdorog (Eastern Catholic archdiocese), now the Metropolitan (with two suffragans in his own province) in chief of the Hungarian Greek Catholic Church, of Byzantine Rite.

History
It was founded in 1001 by Stephen I of Hungary, as the Metropolitan Archdiocese of Esztergom, on Hungarian territories split off from the dioceses of Nitra, Passau and Regensburg (the latter two with sees in Bavaria, southern Germany). It had a uniquely prominent status, giving the archbishop the title of prince primate, and the privilege of crowning the kings of Hungary.

The Cathedral of Saint Adalbert was consecrated in 1010. The archdiocese lost territory in 1227 to establish the Diocese of Milcovia, but in 1542 gained territory back from the suppressed Diocese of Milcovia.

The archbishop and chaplaincy relocated to Nagyszombat in 1543 before Esztergom fell to the Ottoman Empire. Saint Nicolas Church served as the cathedral. Ottoman occupation of the archdiocese made pastoral care difficult and Protestant teachings spread. Archbishop Miklós Oláh re-established the Esztergom cathedral school at Nagyszombat, and in 1561 invited the Jesuits to administer it.

In 1619, Primate Péter Pázmány founded the Pázmáneum in Vienna as a seminary to train Hungarian candidates for the priesthood. in 1776, the archdiocese was split to establish the suffragan sees of Banská Bystrica, Rožňava and Spiš. In 1820, the episcopal see returned to Esztergom. Work began to restore the cathedral in 1822. The upper church was consecrated in 1856 and saw the premier of Franz Liszt's Missa solennis.

In June 1912, the archdiocese lost territory with the establishment of the Eparchy of Hajdúdorog (as its suffragan; now a Byzantine rite Metropolitan Archeparchy) and in May 1922 to establish the Apostolic Administration of Trnava. In 1938 the 34th International Eucharistic Congress was held in Budapest. In 1948 Cardinal József Mindszenty was arrested and imprisoned by the government. Freed during the short-lived Hungarian Revolution of 1956, Mindszenty was granted political asylum at the United States embassy in Budapest when the Russians invaded.

In August 1991, the archdiocese received a papal visit from Pope John Paul II. Diocesan boundaries were redrawn in 1993 and the Archdiovese renamed the Metropolitan Archdiocese of Esztergom–Budapest, having gained territory from Diocese of Székesfehérvár (which became its suffragan) and Diocese of Vác. St. Stephen's Basilica was named co-cathedral.

List of archbishops

 * Domonkos (archbishop 1000)
 * Sebestyén (Sebastian) (archbishop 1001)
 * Radla (archbishop 1002)
 * Anastaz-Astrik (archbishop ca. 1007)
 * Sebestyén (again) (archbishop after 1012)
 * Benedek-Beneta (archbishop 1046–1055)
 * Nehemiah (archbishop 1075 – 1077/79)
 * Acha (archbishop 1087 – ca. 1090)
 * Seraphin (archbishop 1094)
 * Lőrinc (Lawrence) (archbishop 1105)
 * Marcel (archbishop 1116)
 * Felician (archbishop 1127)
 * Macarius (b. 1143–b. 1150)
 * Kökényes (archbishop 1150)
 * Martyrius (archbishop 1151)
 * Lucas (archbishop 1158)
 * Nicholas (1181–1183)
 * Job (archbishop 1185)
 * Ugrin de genere Csák (archbishop April 1204 – August 1204)
 * Kalán de genere Bár-Kalán (archbishop 1204)
 * John (archbishop 1205)
 * Thomas (archbishop February–November 1224)
 * Robert (1226–1239)
 * Matthias de genere Rátót (primate, archbishop 1239)
 * Stephen de genere Báncsa (archbishop, cardinal 1242)
 * Benedek (archbishop 1254)
 * Fülöp Szentgróti (archbishop 1262)
 * Miklós (Nicholas) de genere Kán (archbishop 1273)
 * Benedict (archbishop 1274)
 * Miklós (Nicholas) de genere Kán (again) (archbishop 1276)
 * Peter Kőszegi de genere Héder (archbishop 1277)
 * Lodomer (1279–1298)
 * Gregory Bicskei (archbishop-elect, 1298–1303)
 * Mihály (Michael) de genere Bő (archbishop 1303)
 * Thomas (archbishop 1305)
 * Boleslav Piast (archbishop 1321)
 * Miklós (Nicholas) Dörögdi (archbishop 1329)
 * Csanád Telegdi (archbishop 1330)
 * Nicholas Vásári (archbishop 1350)
 * Miklós (Nicholas) Apáti (archbishop 1358)
 * Tamás (Thomas) Telegdi (archbishop 1367)
 * János (John) De Surdis (archbishop 1376)
 * Demeter (archbishop 1378)
 * János (John) Kanizsai (primate, archbishop from 1387 to 1395)
 * Péter (Peter) (apostolic coadjutor – 1418)
 * László (Ladislaus) Csetneki (apostolic coadjutor – 1418)
 * György (George) Hohenlohe (apostolic coadjutor – 1418)
 * János (John) Borsnitz (apostolic coadjutor – 1418)
 * György Pálóczy (primate, archbishop – 1423)
 * Dénes Szécsi (primate, archbishop – 1440)
 * János Vitéz (primate, archbishop – 1465–1472)
 * Johann Beckenschlager (primate, archbishop 15 Mar 1474 – 21 Mar 1487)
 * John of Aragon (primate, archbishop – 1480)
 * Hippolytus Cardinal Este (primate, archbishop – 1486)
 * Tamás Bakócz (primate, archbishop, cardinal – 1497–1521)
 * György Szatmári (primate, archbishop – 1522)
 * László Szalkai (primate, archbishop – 1524)
 * (primate, archbishop 1526 – 12 Oct 1549)
 * Giorgio Martinuzzi (primate, archbishop, cardinal – 1551)
 * Miklós Oláh (primate, archbishop – 1553)
 * Antal Verancsics (Antun Vrančić) (primate, archbishop 17 Oct 1569 – 15 Jun 1573)
 * Miklós Telegdy (primate, archbishop 1580 – 22 Apr 1586)
 * István Fehérkövi (primate, archbishop – 1596)
 * János Kutasi (primate, archbishop – 1597)
 * Ferenc Forgách (primate, archbishop – 1607)
 * Péter Pázmány, S.J. (primate, archbishop, cardinal 28 Oct 1616 – 19 Mar 1637)
 * Imre Lósi (primate, archbishop – 1637)
 * György Lippay (primate, archbishop – 1642)
 * György Szelepcsényi (primate, archbishop – 1666)
 * György Széchényi (primate, archbishop – 1685)
 * Leopold Karl, Graf von Kollonitsch (primate, archbishop, cardinal 22 Aug 1695 – 20 Jan 1707)
 * Coadjutor Archbishop: Cardinal Christian August of Saxe-Zeitz (1701.01.24 – 1707.01.20)
 * Christian August of Saxe-Zeitz (prince primate, archbishop, cardinal 20 Jan 1707 – 23 Aug 1725)
 * Imre Esterházy (prince primate, archbishop – 1725)
 * Miklós Csáky (prince primate, archbishop – 1751)
 * Ferenc Barkóczy (prince primate, archbishop – 1761)
 * József Batthyány (prince primate, archbishop 20 May 1776 – 23 Oct 1799)
 * Karl Ambrosius of Austria (prince primate, archbishop 16 Mar 1808 – 2 Sep 1809)
 * Alexander Rudnay (prince primate, archbishop 17 Dec 1819 – 13 Sep 1831)
 * József Kopácsy (prince primate, archbishop 15 Dec 1838 – 17 Sept 1847)
 * János Hám (prince primate, archbishop June 1848 – July 1849)
 * János Scitovszky (prince primate, archbishop 28 Sep 1849 – 19 Oct 1866)
 * János Simor (prince primate, archbishop 22 Feb 1867 – 23 Jan 1891 )
 * Kolos Ferenc Vaszary, O.S.B. (prince primate, archbishop, cardinal 13 Dec 1891 – 1 Jan 1913)
 * János Csernoch (prince primate, archbishop, cardinal 13 Dec 1912 – 25 Jul 1927)
 * Jusztinián György Serédi, O.S.B. (prince primate, archbishop, cardinal 30 Nov 1927 – 29 Mar 1945)
 * The Venerable József Mindszenty (prince primate, archbishop, cardinal 2 Oct 1945 – 18 Dec 1973)
 * Endre Hamvas (apostolic coadjutor 18. July 1950)
 * Mihály Endrey (apostolic coadjutor 9. February 1957)
 * Artur Schwarz-Eggenhoffer (apostolic coadjutor 6. June 1957)
 * Imre Szabó (apostolic coadjutor 10. January 1957)
 * Imre Kisberk (apostolic coadjutor 28. September 1971)
 * László Lékai (as apostolic coadjutor 2. February 1974)
 * László Lékai (as primate, archbishop, cardinal 12 Feb 1976 – 30 Jun 1986)
 * László Paskai (primate, archbishop, cardinal 3 March 1987 – 7 Dec. 2002 see below).

 * Metropolitan Archbishops of Esztergom–Budapest

 * László Paskai (see above 3 March 1987 – 7 December 2002) (As Archbishop of Esztergom until 1993)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Imre Asztrik Várszegi, O.S.B. (1988.12.23 – 1991.03.18)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Vilmos Dékány, Sch. P. (1988.12.23 – 2000.05.19)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Archbishop Csaba Ternyák (later Archbishop) (1992.12.24 – 1997.12.11)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Antal Spányi (1998.02.13 – 2003.04.04)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Miklós Beer (2000.04.08 – 2003.05.27)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Gáspár Ladocsi (2001.11.28 – 2010.11.26)
 * Péter Erdõ (7 December 2002 – ...), created Cardinal-Priest of S. Maria Nuova (2003.10.21 [2004.03.09] – ...), also President of Hungarian Episcopal Conference (2005.09 – 2015.09.02), President of Council of European Bishops' Conferences (2006.10.08 – 2016.10.08); previously Titular Bishop of Puppi (1999.11.05 – 2002.12.07) as Auxiliary Bishop of Székesfehérvár (Hungary) (1999.11.05 – 2002.12.07)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: László Kiss-Rigó (2004.01.24 – 2006.06.20)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: György Udvardy (2004.01.24 – 2011.04.09)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: János Székely (2007.11.14 – 2017.06.18)
 * Auxiliary bishop Ferenc Cserháti (2007.06.15 – ...), Titular Bishop of Centuria (2007.06.15 – ...)
 * Auxiliary bishop György Snell (2014.10.20 – 2021.02.26), Titular Bishop of Pudentiana (2014.10.20 – 2021.02.26)

Auxiliary episcopate

 * Auxiliary Bishop: István Bagi (1979.03.31 – 1986.01.31)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Iván Pálos (1975.01.07 – 1987.03.28)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: György Zemplén (1969.01.10 – 1973.03.29)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Mihály Endrey-Eipel (1957–1972)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Imre Szabó (1951.03.11 – 1976.05.21)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Blessed Zoltán Lajos Meszlényi (1937.09.22 – 1953.01.11)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Stefano Breyer (1929.04.05 – 1933.12.13)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Lajos Rajner (1906.06.14 – 1920.03.27)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Josef Medard Kohl, O.S.B. (1900.12.17 – 1928.01.15)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Paulus Palásthy (1886.05.04 – 1899.09.24)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: József Boltizár (1875.08.24 – 1905.05.17)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Joseph Szabó (1868.06.22 – 1884.04.27)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Giuseppe Durguth (1865.09.25 – ?)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Emerico Tóth (1857.09.25 – 1865.01.06)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Jozef Viber (1856.06.19 – 1866.01.15)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Joseph Krautmann (1852.03.15 – 1855)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Peter de Ürményi (1820.08.28 – 1839.11.15)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Giovanni Benyovszky (1820.08.28 – 1827?)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Istvan Gosztonyi (1815.12.18 – 1817)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Karol Perényl (1808.07.11 – 1819.03.15)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Nikolaus Rauscher (1808.03.16 – 1815)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: József Király (1807.09.18 – 1808.01.11)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Márton Görgey (1804.09.24 – 1807.08.01)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Ladislaus Luzenszky (1779.12.13 – 1792)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Stephanus Nagy (1776.12.16 – 1804)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Georgius Richvaldszky (1776.12.16 – 1779.08.07)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Anton Révay (1754.05.20 – 1776.09.16)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Paulus de Révay (1753.03.12 – 1776)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Ferenc Zichy (1742.09.24 – 1744.03.16)
 * Auxiliary Bishop: Giorgio Trivulzio, B. (1678.11.07 – 1689)

Sources and external links

 * GCatholic.org with Google map – data for all sections
 * Archdiocese of Esztergom–Budapest website (only in Hungarian)
 * Catholic Hierarchy
 * History of the Archdiocese (only in Hungarian)


text:
User:Virginia Bell

Thank you very much indeed for filling out and giving so much useful information on George Weigel, which I had previously started as a stub. It is most useful.--File Éireann 11:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User:Virginia Bell


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Epidermal-derived growth factor

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was merge and redirect which has now been done. Mgm|(talk) 11:15, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Epidermal-derived growth factor
This was tagged for speedy deletion by an anon. I can't see what's wrong with it, but maybe the anon knows more about it than me. 53 Google hits No vote. Kappa 11:46, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep provided it's wikified.   — J I P | Talk 11:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I can see what's wrong with it, and that is that it's totally incomprehensible to most people :) but since that is no grounds for deletion, keep and ask some biologist to clarify it. Radiant_* 14:59, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. --Halidecyphon 15:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and wikify. Scientific concepts are almost always encyclopedic. Dave the Red (talk) 18:02, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with Epidermal growth factor. Dave the Red (talk) 19:28, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep as biochemist I've come across this and I can assure you the concept is real. I'd be happy to wikify this later. Just post it to my Cleanup Taskforce Desk to make sure I don't forget :) Mgm|(talk) 19:01, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * Epidermal growth factor is the same thing and the correct name, merge and redirect there--nixie 00:27, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with Epidermal growth factor. Concur with Peta. Megan1967 02:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge or even replace Epidermal growth factor as the latter is poorly written. DDerby 01:49, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Eurasiatic languages

Eurasiatic is a hypothetical and controversial language macrofamily proposal that would include many language families historically spoken in northern, western, and southern Eurasia.

The idea of a Eurasiatic superfamily dates back more than 100 years. Joseph Greenberg's proposal, dating to the 1990s, is the most widely discussed version. In 2013, Mark Pagel and three colleagues published what they believe to be statistical evidence for a Eurasiatic language family.

The branches of Eurasiatic vary between proposals, but typically include the widely rejected Altaic macrofamily (comprised in part of Mongolic, Tungusic and Turkic), Chukchi-Kamchatkan, Eskimo–Aleut, Indo-European, and Uralic—although Greenberg uses the controversial Uralic-Yukaghir classification instead. Other branches sometimes included are the Kartvelian and Dravidian families, as proposed by Pagel et al., in addition to the language isolates Nivkh, Etruscan and Greenberg's "Korean–Japanese–Ainu". Some proposals group Eurasiatic with even larger macrofamilies, such as Nostratic; again, many other professional linguists regard the methods used as invalid.

The hypothesis has fallen out of favour and has limited degrees of acceptance, predominantly among a minority of Russian linguists. Linguists worldwide reject Eurasiatic and many other macrofamily hypotheses such as Nostratic, with the exception of Dené–Yeniseian languages, which has been met with some degree of acceptance.

History of the concept
In 1994 Merritt Ruhlen claimed Eurasiatic is supported by the existence of a grammatical pattern "whereby plurals of nouns are formed by suffixing -t to the noun root ... whereas duals of nouns are formed by suffixing -k." Rasmus Rask noted this grammatical pattern in the groups now called Uralic and Eskimo–Aleut as early as 1818, but it can also be found in Tungusic, Nivkh (also called Gilyak) and Chukchi–Kamchatkan—all of which Greenberg placed in Eurasiatic. According to Ruhlen, this pattern is not found in language families or languages outside Eurasiatic.

In 1998, Joseph Greenberg extended his work in mass comparison, a methodology he first proposed in the 1950s to categorize the languages of Africa, to suggest a Eurasiatic language. In 2000, he expanded his argument for Eurasiatic into a full-length book, Indo-European and Its Closest Relatives: The Eurasiatic Language Family, in which he outlines both phonetic and grammatical evidence that he feels demonstrate the validity of language family. The heart of his argument is 72 morphological features that he judges as common across the various language families he examines. Of the many variant proposals, Greenberg's has attracted the most academic attention.

Greenberg's Eurasiatic hypothesis has been dismissed by many linguists, often on the ground that his research on mass comparison is unreliable. The primary criticism of comparative methods is that cognates are assumed to have a common origin on the basis of similar sounds and word meanings. It is generally assumed that semantic and phonetic corruption destroys any trace of original sound and meaning within 5,000 to 9,000 years making the application of comparative methods to ancient superfamilies highly questionable. Additionally, apparent cognates can arise by chance or from loan words. Without the existence of statistical estimates of chance collisions, conclusions based on comparison alone are thus viewed as doubtful.

Stefan Georg and Alexander Vovin, who, unlike many of their colleagues, do not stipulate a priori that attempts to find ancient relationships are bound to fail, examined Greenberg's claims in detail. They state that Greenberg's morphological arguments are the correct approach to determining families, but doubt his conclusions. They write "[Greenberg's] 72 morphemes look like massive evidence in favour of Eurasiatic at first glance. If valid, few linguists would have the right to doubt that a point has been made [...] However, closer inspection  [...] shows too many misinterpretations, errors and wrong analyses  [...] these allow no other judgement than that [Greenberg's] attempt to demonstrate the validity of his Eurasiatic has failed."

In the 1980s, Russian linguist Nikolai Dmitrievich Andreev's Boreal languages hypothesis (Бореальный язык) linking the Indo-European, Uralic, and Altaic (including Korean in his later papers) language families. Andreev also proposed 203 lexical roots for his hypothesized Boreal macrofamily. After Andreev's death in 1997, the Boreal hypothesis was further expanded by Sorin Paliga (2003, 2007).

Pagel et al.
In 2013, Mark Pagel, Quentin D. Atkinson, Andreea S. Calude, and Andrew Meade published statistical evidence that attempts to overcome these objections. According to their earlier work, most words exhibit a "half-life" of between 2,000 and 4,000 years, consistent with existing theories of linguistic replacement. However, they also identified some words – numerals, pronouns, and certain adverbs – that exhibit a much slower rate of replacement with half-lives of 10,000 to 20,000 or more years. Drawing from research in a diverse group of modern languages, the authors were able to show the same slow replacement rates for key words regardless of current pronunciation. They conclude that a stable core of largely unchanging words is a common feature of all human discourse, and model replacement as inversely proportional to usage frequency.

Pagel et al. used hypothesized reconstructions of proto-words from seven language families listed in the Languages of the World Etymological Database (LWED). They limited their search to the 200 most common words as described by the Swadesh fundamental vocabulary list. Twelve words were excluded because proto-words had been proposed for two or fewer language families. The remaining 188 words yielded 3804 different reconstructions (sometimes with multiple constructions for a given family). In contrast to traditional comparative linguistics, the researchers did not attempt to "prove" any given pairing as cognates (based on similar sounds), but rather treated each pairing as a binary random variable subject to error. The set of possible cognate pairings was then analyzed as a whole for predictable regularities.

Words were separated into groupings based on how many language families appeared to be cognate for the word. Among the 188 words, cognate groups ranged from 1 (no cognates) to 7 (all languages cognate) with a mean of 2.3 ± 1.1. The distribution of cognate class size was positively skewed − many more small groups than large ones − as predicted by their hypothesis of variant decay rates. Words were then grouped by their generalized worldwide frequency of use, part of speech, and previously estimated rate of replacement. Cognate class size was positively correlated with estimated replacement rate (r=0.43, p<0.001). Generalized frequency combined with part of speech was also a strong predictor of class size (r=0.48, p<0.001). Pagel et al. conclude "This result suggests that, consistent with their short estimated half-lives, infrequently used words typically do not exist long enough to be deeply ancestral, but that above the threshold frequency words gain greater stability, which then translates into larger cognate class sizes."

Twenty-three word meanings had cognate class sizes of four or more. Words used more than once per 1,000 spoken words (χ2=24.29, P<0.001), pronouns (χ2=26.1, P<0.0001), and adverbs (χ2=14.5, P=0.003) were over-representing among those 23 words. Frequently used words, controlled for part of speech, were 7.5 times more likely (P<0.001) than infrequently used words to be judged as cognate. These findings matched their a priori predictions about word classes more likes to retain sound and meaning over long periods of time. The authors write "Our ability to predict these words independently of their sound correspondences dilutes the usual criticisms leveled at such long-range linguistic reconstructions, that proto-words are unreliable or inaccurate, or that apparent phonetic similarities among them reflect chance sound resemblances." On the first point, they argue that inaccurate reconstructions should weaken, not enhance, the signals. On the second, they argue that chance resemblances should be equally common across all word usage frequencies, in contrast to what the data shows.

The team then created a Markov chain Monte Carlo simulation to estimate and date the phylogenetic trees of the seven language families under examination. Five separate runs produced the same (unrooted) tree, with three sets of language families: an eastern grouping of Altaic, Inuit–Yupik, and Chukchi–Kamchatkan; a central and southern Asia grouping of Kartvelian and Dravidian; and a northern and western European grouping of Indo-European and Uralic. Two rootings were considered, using established age estimates for Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Chukchi–Kamchatkan as calibration. The first roots the tree to the midpoint of the branch leading to proto-Dravidian and yields an estimated origin for Eurasiatic of 14450 ± 1750 years ago. The second roots the tree to the proto-Kartvelian branch and yields 15610 ± 2290 years ago. Internal nodes have less certainty, but exceed chance expectations, and do not affect the top-level age estimate. The authors conclude "All inferred ages must be treated with caution but our estimates are consistent with proposals linking the near concomitant spread of the language families that comprise this group to the retreat of glaciers in Eurasia at the end of the last ice age ~15,000 years ago."

Many academics specializing in historical linguistics via the comparative method are however skeptical of the conclusions of the paper, and critical of its assumptions and methodology. Writing on University of Pennsylvania blog Language Log, Sarah Thomason questions the accuracy of the LWED data on which the paper was based. She notes that LWED lists multiple possible proto-word reconstructions for most words, increasing the possibility of chance matches. Pagel et al.. anticipated this criticism and state that since infrequently used words generally have more proposed reconstructions, such errors should "produce a bias in the opposite direction" of what the statistics actual shows (i.e. that infrequently used words should have larger cognate groups if chance alone was the source). Thomason also argues that since the LWED is contributed to primarily by believers in Nostratic, a proposed superfamily even broader than Eurasiatic, the data is likely to be biased towards proto-words that can be judged cognate. Pagel et al.. admit they "cannot rule out this bias" but say they think it is unlikely bias has systematically impacted their results. They argue certain word types generally believed to be long lived (e.g. numbers) do not appear on their 23 word list, while other words of relatively low importance in modern society, but important to ancient people do appear on the list (e.g. bark and ashes), thus casting doubt on bias being the cause of the apparent cognates. Thomason says she is "unqualified" to comment on the statistics themselves, but says any model that uses bad data as input cannot provide reliable results.

Asya Pereltsvaig takes a different approach to her critique of the paper. Outlining the history (in English) of several of the words on the Pagel list, she concludes it is impossible that such words could have retained any sound and meaning pairings from 15,000 years ago given how much they have changed in the 1,500 or so year attested history of English. She also states that the authors are "looking in the wrong place" to begin with since "grammatical properties are more reliable than words as indicators of familial relationships".

Pagel et al. also examined two other possible objections to their conclusions. They rule out linguistic borrowing as a significant factor in the results on the basis that for a word to appear cognate in many language families solely because of borrowing would require frequent swapping back and forth. This is deemed unlikely because of the large geographical area covered by the language groups and because frequently used words are the least likely to be borrowed in modern times. Finally, they state that leaving aside closed class words with simple phonologies (e.g. I and we) does not affect their conclusions.

Classification
According to Greenberg, the language family that Eurasiatic is most closely connected to is Amerind. He states that "the Eurasiatic-Amerind family represents a relatively recent expansion (circa 15,000 years ago) into territory opened up by the melting of the Arctic ice cap". In contrast, "Eurasiatic-Amerind stands apart from the other families of the Old World, among which the differences are much greater and represent deeper chronological groupings". Like Eurasiatic, Amerind is not a generally accepted proposal.

Eurasiatic and another proposed macrofamily, Nostratic, often include many of the same language families. Vladislav Illich-Svitych's Nostratic dictionary did not include the smaller Siberian language families listed in Eurasiatic, but this was only because protolanguages had not been reconstructed for them; Nostraticists have not attempted to exclude these languages from Nostratic. Many Nostratic theorists have accepted Eurasiatic as a subgroup within Nostratic alongside Afroasiatic, Kartvelian, and Dravidian. LWED likewise views Eurasiatic as a subfamily of Nostratic. The Nostratic family is not endorsed by the mainstream of comparative linguistics.

Harold C. Fleming includes Eurasiatic as a subgroup of the hypothetical Borean family.

Subdivisions
The subdivisioning of Eurasiatic varies by proposal, but usually includes Turkic, Tungusic, Mongolic, Chukchi-Kamchatkan, Eskimo–Aleut, Indo-European, and Uralic.

Greenberg enumerates eight branches of Eurasiatic, as follows: Altaic [Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic], Chukchi-Kamchatkan, Eskimo–Aleut, Etruscan, Indo-European, "Korean-Japanese-Ainu", Nivkh, and Uralic–Yukaghir. He then breaks these families into smaller sub-groups, some of which are themselves not widely accepted as phylogenetic groupings.

Pagel et al. use a slightly different branching, listing seven language families: Altaic [Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic], Chukchi-Kamchatkan, Dravidian, "Inuit-Yupik"—which is a name giving to LWED grouping of Inuit (Eskimo) languages that does not include Aleut —Indo-European, Kartvelian, and Uralic.

Murray Gell-Mann, Ilia Peiros, and Georgiy Starostin group Chukotko-Kamchatkan and Nivkh with Almosan instead of Eurasiatic.

Regardless of version, these lists cover the languages spoken in most of Europe, Central and Northern Asia and (in the case of Eskimo-Aleut) on either side of the Bering Strait.

The branching of Eurasiatic is roughly (following Greenberg):

 * Eurasiatic
 * Indo-European (unity undisputed)
 * Uralic–Yukaghir (hypothetical)
 * Uralic (unity undisputed)
 * Yukaghir (unity undisputed)
 * Nivkh (unity undisputed)
 * Chukotko-Kamchatkan (unity undisputed)
 * Eskaleut (unity undisputed)
 * Altaic (controversial)
 * Turkic (unity undisputed)
 * Mongolic (unity undisputed)
 * Tungusic (unity undisputed)
 * Korean–Japanese–Ainu (hypothetical)
 * Koreanic (unity undisputed)
 * Japonic (unity undisputed)
 * Ainu (unity undisputed)
 * Tyrsenian (grouping of three closely related extinct languages; their affiliation with Eurasiatic, based primarily on "mi" first person singular, is highly speculative given lack of attestation)

Jäger (2015)
A computational phylogenetic analysis Jäger (2015) provided the following phylogeny of language families in Eurasia:

Geographical distribution
Merritt Ruhlen suggests that the geographical distribution of Eurasiatic shows that it and the Dené–Caucasian family are the result of separate migrations. Dené–Caucasian is the older of the two groups, with the emergence of Eurasiatic being more recent. The Eurasiatic expansion overwhelmed Dené–Caucasian, leaving speakers of the latter restricted mainly to isolated pockets (the Basques in the Pyrenees Mountains, Caucasian peoples in the Caucasus Mountains, and the Burushaski in the Hindu Kush Mountains) surrounded by Eurasiatic speakers. Dené–Caucasian survived in these areas because they were difficult to access and therefore easy to defend; the reasons for its survival elsewhere are unclear. Ruhlen argues that Eurasiatic is supported by stronger and clearer evidence than Dené–Caucasian, and that this also indicates that the spread of Dené–Caucasian occurred before that of Eurasiatic.

The existence of a Dené–Caucasian family is disputed or rejected by most linguists, including Lyle Campbell, Ives Goddard, and Larry Trask.

The last common ancestor of the family was estimated by phylogenetic analysis of ultraconserved words at roughly 15,000 years old, suggesting that these languages spread from a "refuge" area at the Last Glacial Maximum.

title: Eurasiatic languages


text:
Talk:Greek (name)

''The new country was officially named "Kingdom of the Hellenes" (later "Hellenic Republic"), or Hellas, and the people "Hellenes". In many countries, the modern Hellenes are called Greeks and their country Greece, while in other countries, especially in Asia, they are called Yunan and their country Yunanistan, from the Turkish word Yunan, derived from the Greek geographical term Ionia. In Turkey, Greeks from Greece are called Yunan, but ethnic Greeks in Turkey are called Rum, from Greek Rhomaioi.''

usually the words that the countries in Asia use are not derived from the Turkish but from the Persian (the Persian word is derived from the Greek geographical term Ionia).

 as the new nation turned to the glory of the Ancient Hellenes as a source of national pride and inspiration.

Please discuss whether this should be in the article here, rather than edit-warring :

Thanks Septentrionalis 16:23, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For
 * Ok, the Greeks chose Hellas rather than "Grekia" or "Rumiosini". Why? Was it at random, or was there a reason? Actually there were many opinions on the subject, and most revolutionary leaders fought as "Grekoi", but Capodistrias and the western-educated elite that came with Otto went for Hellas. This came as a package with a whole set of policies to revive "hellenic glory" (katharevousa, spending all the education money on philosophy and literature when the new nation could really use some veterinarians, etc). If there is an opposing view as to why "hellas" was selected, it can be added here, but some explanation is needed Sysin 18:49, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Against

Major Update
The article on the history of names of the Greeks was rather poor (and rather inaccurate) so I took the liberty of re-writing it, hopefully for the better. The only disadvantage I think it has is its length. It may be too lengthy for the purposes of Wikipedia, but I think its necessary for the names to be attached together for the better of the whole. The section of one name puts the next section in prespective. I havent rule out yet seperation and editing into a "series" of a sort, especially since the article in unfinished. I intend to continue writing into the Ottoman and Modern era with at least two or three more section added. With that, the article will definitely exceed the recommended 32KB limit, but I'll try to minimize it by removing unecessary information from the whole. Its appearence is also too "essayistic" and hard to the eye, without any pictures, but I plan to make it more readable, in time.

For now, and as it is, I think overall it's a great improvement over the previous article.--

Too long, too esoteric
Quite honestly, I disagree. It is perhaps interesting to someone already familiar with the subject, but as an article for someone wishing to learn the basics, this is just too confusing.

The subject often comes up. As a Greek American, I've been asked "so the Greeks are gone, and now the hellenes live in Greece in their place, right?" by a well meaning wasp friend. The previous article answered the question in a format that would help my friend "get it". The average person would probably stop reading the new article after the first few hundred words.

As Greeks, we have a great history. We should promote it. Look at how brands effectively promote themselves today. Quick, clear and to the point.

I am not going to revert the article myself. I hope you will. Most of the information you added belongs in other articles that could be linked from this page. Sysin 21:10, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia isnt just for the basics
I dont think that quality must necessarily be against quanitity, although I do agree with you that the article in its current state may be discouraging to casual readers who might see it "bulky". I dont understand though why we should limit ourselves to a brief article. Wikipedia isnt aimed for the quick reader only, and many, if not most articles go into depth on the topic they deal with. Briefness sets an upper limit to the quality aspired for and given the subject, there's simply no way for it to be credible unless we're willing to go into depth. Having that said, I agree that there's room for improvement in the article as far as readability goes.

The problem is that we need to explain and justify how the greeks came to have so many names, and not just list the names with a three sentense summary beneath each one. The reader, anyway, needs not finish the whole thing on one go. Articles are divided into sections for that very reason: to guide him through the subject and enabling him to jump into any section any time. It was never my intention to leave the article at is current state but the previous article was far too short on information to the degree of misdirection. It dealt only partly with the plurality of the Greek names and most importantly, offered no justification whatsoever for its sources. For such an oblivious subject we need to be as scrupulous as possible.

As a Greek myself, I too used to wonder how we had come to have 7 different names when others have 1, 2 or 3 at best. And when I began researching I discovered a vast literature on the subject I never knew existed, proving how complicated the subject is, even for academics.

These are the points that I think need at least to be raised for a comprehensive article are:

 * 1) Pelasgian - the name encompassing all Helladic tribes during the Prehistoric era.
 * 2)Achaeans - the name of the Greeks during Homer.
 * 3)Hellenes - the name of the Greeks during and prior classical antiquity.
 * 4) Hellenes and Barbarians - how non-Greeks also came to be known as Hellenes during late antiquity.
 * 5) Hellenists - why non-Greeks came to be known as Hellenes during late antiquity.
 * 6) Graeci - the name Greeks came to be known from the West.
 * 7) Yunan - the name the Greeks came to be known from the East.
 * 8) Infidel Hellenes - why Hellene came to mean pagan during the middle ages.
 * 9) Romans - the name of the Greeks during the middle ages.
 * 10) Byzantines - the name the Greeks of the middle ages are known by today.
 * 11) Revival of Hellene - how Hellene re-acquired its classical meaning during the middle ages.
 * 12) Constest between Hellenes, Romans, Graeci - the dilemma of the Greeks to choose one of the three names after Independence from the Ottomans.
 * 13)Final disputes - Popular reaction in the 20th cent. against the promotion of Hellene over Romans and Graeci.

The numbers above dont correspond to respective sections in the article which may include one or more points.

The older article focused on 3), 6), 7) and 9), with brief references to 12) and 13). While 1) may be neglected since academics themselves are divided over the issue, the rest of the points are far too important to be left out. There is no explanation on why the Greeks changed their name from Danaoi to Hellenes and why they later dumped Hellenes for Romans, which is the most important development. The first questions non-Greeks ask themselves is why did the Greeks change their name (Hellene) in the first place? That is why I focused so much on 4) and 5)- in order to explain the developments that were to follow. There's also a problem with: "While in general the citizens of the Byzantine Empire were called Romans, the Greeks assumed the name Græco to distinguish themselves from the rest of the Byzantines." This falsely suggests that the various peoples of the empire were Romans in a strictly legal sense only, while maintaining their own ethnonyms seperately, when infact Greeks were much more Roman in both legal and national contexts than anybody else. Non Greeks had their own seperate identities. The article also fails to explain why or how the name Hellene came to suggest attachment to old religions, or how it later lost this attachment. In general the article was more incomplete than wrong, but it suffered the most from the lack of citation. Without references to back up a statement, anybody can claim his own opinion as the truth and distort the text, and nobody would have any sources to defend with.

We should not revert for the sake of brevity. Overinformation can be as bad as misdirection so we should work on delivering more efficiently the correct information, than settleing with lower quality just because its easier to read.

So far, I've completed 2) 3) 4) 5) 6) 7) 8) 9) and 10), with 11), 12), and 13) pending. On my part, I'll do my best to re-write each section, cutting away excess text and rephrasing, making it easier to read. I'm not trying to enforce myself over others. I realize that you have spent time in making that article and I respect that. I just think that there are so much more that need to be told in this article.Colossus 09:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==

To combine quantity and readability, you need structure. The sequence above lacks an easy-to-follow structure, being neither a pure enumeration, nor a time line. For example, it might appear to the casual reader that the Greeks were at one point called by others "Infidel Hellenes". I propose something more easy for the reader to follow:

 * 1) Intro
 * 2) Names
 * 3) Pre-homeric and homeric names.
 * 4) Hellenes
 * 5) Greeks
 * 6) Yunan
 * 7) Romans (Each of the above no more than 250-300 words. Word origin and context. Essentially sections 2.1 through 2.5 are the article in the previous form, with any corrections that need to be made). Note that Byzantine is not in the list; no Greek ever called himself Byzantine, nor did anyone ever use it to refer to their contemporary Greeks.
 * 8) Historical timeline
 * 9) Pre-christian (before 3rd century CE)
 * 10) Byzantine and Ottoman period
 * 11) Modern
 * 12) References

The point of separating the enumeration from the timeline is to let the reader get a grasp of the basic notions first, without forcing him to go through pages of details. After that is accomplished, the reader who wants more can keep reading. My point is that you can edit the article back to a readable form, without removing one iota of content.Sysin 15:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==

My structure is a timeline. What could be more strightforward than that? The article progresses linearly from Homer's time and (is scheduled) to end in modern times. The problem with explaining the basic notions first (the names themselves) is explaining the transition from one name to the next. Although I dont understand why you render the other sections of less importance. If we to move the transition period sections to the bottom of the article while keeping the names listed on the top altogether, the reader will only end up more confused by not understanding the progress from one name to the next. An experienced historian may prefer your structure where all names are gathered together, but no average reader would be interested in reading a history of the names without simultaneously understanding their development.

An average reader wont understand why the Greeks came to be known as Romans in the first place, or why Hellenes became a synonym for pagan, only that they just did. Forcing him to jump from one section to the other and back again to fill those gaps isnt efficient. Far from a easy-to-follow structure. Keeping the transition sections in their natural order between names is absolutely necessary.

If its the length that still troubles you I have already began removing parts and will continue to do so making it as short as possible. An idea I think would work for the both of us perhaps is creating an infobox on the top listing only the names of the Greeks with shortcuts next to them linking straight to the corresponding sections in the article. That way, quick readers will be able to jump directly into the desired names without being obstructed from other details while in the same time maintaining the historical progress of the article.Colossus 22:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Gibbon
When interest did arise, English historians prefered to use Roman terminology (Edward Gibbon used it in a particularily belittling manner); while French historians prefered to call it Greek.

Comments:
 * Anglo-Saxon is probably unnecessary (it's as fancy as 'Hellene'), unless there was an American Byzantinist before 1850.
 * Gibbon's manner is no guide to the manner of his countrymen.
 * Are you sure this distinction is true? Even Gibbon used "Greek empire" sometimes. Septentrionalis 20:22, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==

Yes, the distinction holds. Both "schools" of Byzantine historiography used both terminologies, only that the English relied more heavily in interpreting history in Roman terms, while the French did so in Greek terms. In short Gibbon used Roman much more often than Greek while the Franch did the reverse. But in the end were all smashed down by the Germans who used Byzantine more than everybody.:)Colossus 22:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Greek (name)


text:
Acorn System 1

The Acorn System 1, initially called the Acorn Microcomputer (Micro-Computer), was an early 8-bit microcomputer for hobbyists, based on the MOS 6502 CPU, and produced by British company Acorn Computers from 1979.

The main parts of the system were designed by then-Cambridge-undergraduate student Sophie Wilson, with a cassette interface designed by Steve Furber. It was Acorn's first product, and was based on an automated cow feeder.

It was a small machine built on two Eurocard-standard circuit boards and it could be purchased ready-built or in kit form.
 * one card (shown right) with the I/O part of the computer: a LED seven segment display, a 25-key keypad (hex+function keys), and a cassette CUTS interface (the circuitry to the left of the keypad)
 * the second card (the computer board - see below), which included the CPU, RAM/ROM memory, and support chips
 * the two boards were interconnected by a semi-flexible, multi-conductor cable, known by its commercial name 'Spectra Strip'
 * the whole assembly was held together by four 2.5mm × 20mm nylon screws and clear plastic spacing tubes for rigidity.

Main Components (left to right)

 * Top Row: INS8154 RAMIO Integrated Circuit (for keyboard and display), 6502 CPU, 2 × 2114 1024×4 RAM, 2 × 74S571 512×4 PROM, RAM/ROM expansion socket, second INS8154 for peripheral expansion (optional extra with the kit version).
 * Bottom row: 1 MHz clock crystal, 4 × TTL logic chips providing address decoding for the memory and I/O expansion, 5V regulator.
 * The smaller empty socket in the middle of the board was used to set the memory map of the RAM, ROM and I/O expansion by fitting or soldering wires between various positions according to the instructions in the Acorn System 1 Technical Manual.
 * The three semi-circular legends on the bottom left of the board marked positions for optional push switches to trigger the board's RESET, IRQ (Interrupt ReQuest) and NMI (Non Maskable Interrupt) lines.

Almost all CPU signals were accessible via the standard Eurocard connector on the right-hand side of the board. This connector was not fitted/supplied as standard with the kit version.

The System 1 front board was used as the control panel for the fictional computer Slave in the 1981 series of the BBC science-fiction series Blake's 7.

title: Acorn System 1


text:
Gürtel, Vienna

The Gürtel (lit. 'Belt') is a substantial beltway of Vienna. Running 13.1 km parallel to the famous Vienna Ring Road, it encompasses the inner city districts (Innenbezirke) and follows the route of the former Linienwall outer fortification. The city's red-light district is situated around the Gürtel.

History
The Gürtel was laid out from 1873 at the site of the former Linienwall fortification, built under Emperor Leopold I at the beginning of the 18th century to protect his residence from kuruc invasions in the course of Rákóczi's War for Independence. After World War I, the road became the construction site for several public housing estates (Gemeindebauten) in the era of Red Vienna. As in most parts of Austria-Hungary, vehicles formerly moved on the left, like in Britain, until after the Anschluss in 1938. According to German regulations, traffic in Vienna was redirected to pass on the right as elsewhere on the Continent. Plans developed in the 1960s and 70s to rebuild the Gürtel as a city motorway have never been carried out. The road, like the adjacent residential areas, is however strongly affected by the high traffic volume.

Layout
The Gürtel is not to be confused with B 221 Wiener Gürtel Straße which includes other streets like Schlachthausgasse, starts at the Donaukanal and ends at the Gürtelbrücke, again at Donaukanal.

In the south it starts in the Landstraße district, at the junction with A23 Südosttangente and runs westward toward the Central Station, where the Vienna Pre-metro has been built under surface. There the Wiedner Gürtel and Margaretengürtel mark the border of Wieden and Margareten with the southern Favoriten suburb. The Gürtel then turns north, running along the eastern rim of the Meidling suburb, crossing the Wienfluss and the Wienzeile road, separating the inner city districts of Mariahilf and Neubau in the east from Rudolfsheim-Fünfhaus with the Westbahnhof. The road continues as the border of Josefstadt and Alsergrund with the outer Hernals and Währing districts, passing the General Hospital (Allgemeines Krankenhaus, AKH) and the Volksoper. It ends relatively unspectecular in Döbling district at a Gemeindebau from the 1920s called Professor-Jodl-Hof

From the Wienzeile to the northern end, the dual carriageway is accompanied by the historic Stadtbahn viaduct designed by Otto Wagner, today operated by the U6 U-Bahn line.

title: Gürtel, Vienna


text:
File:Iceland sandur landsat image.jpg

Landsat satellite image of the Skeiðarársandur in Iceland. From.

title: File:Iceland sandur landsat image.jpg


text:
László Paskai

László Paskai, O.F.M. (8 May 1927 – 17 August 2015) was a Hungarian cardinal of the Catholic Church, He served as the archbishop of Esztergom-Budapest from 1987 to 2002.

He was one of the cardinal electors who participated in the 2005 papal conclave that elected Pope Benedict XVI. He was Spiritual Protector and Chaplain General of the Orléans obedience of the Military and Hospitaller Order of Saint Lazarus of Jerusalem from 2004 to 2012.

Early life
László Paskai was born to Jewish parents who had converted to the Roman Catholic faith before the birth of their son and who later were murdered during The Holocaust.

Clerical career
He was ordained a priest at the age of 23, on 3 March 1951, joining the Order of Friars Minor. After his ordination he did pastoral work in the diocese of Nagyvarad before being sent to Budapest for further studies. In Szeged, he served as episcopal master of ceremonies from 1952 to 1955. After this he was a faculty member and librarian of the seminary, 1955–1962. Thereafter serving as prefect of the Interdiocesan Seminary, faculty member and spiritual director until 1965. He later served as a faculty member and spiritual director and finally rector of the Central Seminary, Budapest. On 2 March 1978 he was chosen Apostolic Administrator of Veszprém, becoming a bishop that same day, with the titular see of Bavagaliana.

Pope John Paul II appointed him Archbishop of Veszprém on 31 March 1979. He was appointed Primate of Hungary and Archbishop of Esztergom on 3 March 1987. He was created Cardinal-Priest of Santa Teresa al Corso d'Italia. In 1993 the dioceses of Esztergom was united with that of Budapest, so that Cardinal Paskai was the first Archbishop of Esztergom-Budapest. Cardinal Paskai retired as Archbishop of Esztergom-Budapest in 2002.

He met with U.S. President George H. W. Bush on 13 October 1989.

Retirement
After his retirement he lived in Esztergom-Szentgyörgymező, not far from the St Adalbert basilica. In 2005 he participated in the Papal Conclave which elected Pope Benedict XVI.

On 17 July 2011, he celebrated the last in a series of requiems for Otto von Habsburg, Hungary's last Crown Prince and since pretender to the throne, in St. Stephen's Basilica in Budapest. He died on 17 August 2015 at the age of 88.

Distinctions

 * Spiritual Protector of the separated Orléans Obedience of the Order of Saint Lazarus (2005)

title: László Paskai


text:
User:Gary Morgan

Hi :)

title: User:Gary Morgan


text:
Helmut Haller

Helmut Haller (21 July 1939 – 11 October 2012) was a German footballer who played as a forward. At international level, he represented West Germany at three World Cups. At club level, he played in both Germany and Italy, and won Italian league titles with Bologna and Juventus.

Club career
In his club career, Haller played from 1948 until 1962 for BC Augsburg, before being lured to Italy by a one off fee of 750,000 Marks and an annual salary of 200,000 Marks. Back then in Germany player salaries were officially limited to 500 Marks per month – an amount that rose to 2500 Marks after the introduction of the Bundesliga as unified first division in 1963. In Italy Haller encountered with Albert Brülls, Karl-Heinz Schnellinger and Horst Szymaniak three more German World Cup participants of 1962.

Initially Haller played for Bologna, winning in 1964 under coach Fulvio Bernardini the first Italian league title for the club in 23 years and the hitherto last in the club's history. From 1968 until 1973 he played for Juventus where he won the league in 1972 and 1973. In 1973 Juventus – with Dino Zoff in goal, Franco Causio, Fabio Capello and the Brazilian José Altafini – reached the European Champions Cup final in Belgrade against AFC Ajax. The Johan Cruijff led title holder went into the lead by a fourth minute Johnny Rep header. Haller was brought on by coach Čestmír Vycpálek in the 49th minute for Roberto Bettega, but the result stood. Two years earlier Juventus narrowly missed out in the finals of the 1970–71 Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, having to concede the title to the Billy Bremner led Leeds United after results of 2–2 and 1–1 on the away goal rule.

In 1973, he returned to his hometown and joined FC Augsburg, then newly created through a merger of his former club BC Augsburg with local rivals TSV Schwaben and just promoted to the second division Regionalliga. The club had paid just DM 44,000 for the transfer of Haller and Haller renounced a fixed salary, settling for 5% of the revenue. "Haller-Haller-Hallerluja" became the new battlecry of the team. In late summer 1973, it was not the least due to his popularity that a match in the Munich Olympic Stadium against hosts TSV 1860 attracted an audience of estimated up to 90,000, a world record for second division matches. Augsburg finished that season first in the southern division of the Regionalliga. In the promotion the club missed out on ascension to the Bundesliga by one point to Tennis Borussia Berlin.

Haller retired as player in 1979.

International career
After he made his international debut at age 19 in 1958, he played in three World Cups; his first in the 1962 World Cup held in Chile, the 1966 World Cup in England and the 1970 World Cup held in Mexico, earning a total of 33 caps and scoring 13 goals.

At the World Cup 1962, Haller was a regular of the German side that drew against Italy and overcame hosts Chile and Switzerland in the group phase, but in the quarterfinals Yugoslavia prevailed 1–0. At the World Cup 1966 he formed the West German midfield together with Wolfgang Overath and the young Franz Beckenbauer. West Germany reached the final of competition and Haller scored the opening goal of the game which Germany lost 2–4 to England. Along with his medal, Haller also got the match ball, though more than 30 years later he returned to England to present it to Geoff Hurst, who had scored a hat-trick in the contest and was therefore by tradition considered to be entitled to the ball. After Portugal's Eusébio, who scored nine goals, he was with six goals the second best marksman of the tournament. At the 1970 World Cup, where West Germany attained third place, Haller was only used in the first group match against Morocco, being replaced by Jürgen Grabowski at halftime. Haller was plagued by injury problems in the run-up to the tournament.

Style of play

Both a playmaker and goalscorer, Haller was noted for his exceptional technique and finesse as a striker, yet also for his weight problems, which troubled him throughout his career. In Italy Haller is considered one of the greatest wingers of the sixties and the defining player of Bologna. He remains famed for his "irresistible dribbling, his innate genius, his great eye for goal, his charisma."

After retirement
In later years Haller did some coaching of amateur level clubs, including FC Augsburg, and ran a fashion shop.

Personal life
On Boxing Day 2006, Haller suffered a serious heart attack and was reported to be recovering well after treatment. Later he also suffered from dementia and Parkinson's disease. Haller died on 11 October 2012. He was survived by his third wife, the native Cuban Noraimy Rodriguez Guiterrez, whom he married in 2003 when she was aged just 21, two sons and a daughter. Haller was also an uncle of Christian Hochstätter, a long-serving Borussia Mönchengladbach player and twice West German international.

Honours
Bologna
 * Serie A: 1963–64

Juventus

 * Serie A: 1971–72, 1972–73
 * European Cup: runner-up 1972–73
 * Inter-Cities Fairs Cup: runner-up 1971
 * Coppa Italia: runner-up 1972–73

Augsburg
 * Regionalliga Süd: 1973–74

Germany
 * FIFA World Cup: runner-up 1966, third place 1970

title: Helmut Haller


text:
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Moorgate/archive1

Moorgate
It's me again. Self-nomination; the article spent a week on WP:PR with two comments. JuntungWu 12:01, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Support now jguk 16:45, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) Object for now. It's a nice short article - but I can't help thinking more could be said. I'm not saying all the following need to be dealt with to get my support (they don't), but here are some ideas for development:
 * (1)There are 2 key events mentioned (the hot air balloon flight and the Moorgate tube disaster) - more could be said about these.
 * (2)Were there any other interesting events that happened there?
 * (3)Any cultural references - what are the bars like?, has it ever been mentioned in literature?, any famous residents?
 * (4)The articles on Moorgate station and Moorfields are pretty small anyway - and much of the text on them is already in the Moorgate article. Could the articles be merged in to one?
 * (5)On my IE browser, the map of the London Wall, etc. covers up the end of the second line of text under "Moorfields". This should be fixed.
 * Let me know on my talk page after you've tweaked the article some more, and I'll see if I can change my vote to support, jguk 18:05, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I am looking at it now. JuntungWu 14:27, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've expanded the balloon flight and Moorgate crash sections considerably. There are lots of events but I think the problem is defining whether something is better covered in articles about neighbouring areas, eg., Barbican and Guildhall or areas in the rest of the City. I've stuck to covering only about areas directly connected to the present street, which I think is a fair definition. --JuntungWu 09:52, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Support - It looks like a excellent article. I'm a bit confused as to why the various sections are present, I missed the mention of "Moorgate (street) and the neighborhood section heading the first time through. JesseW 18:25, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Support Love it. --PopUpPirate 00:06, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Support the article is good, although there are few minor typographical quirkafleegs (such as floating square brackets) for someone to pick up. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:58, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


text:
Anti-WEF protests in Switzerland, January 2003

The World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland (January, 2003) triggered anti-globalization protests across Switzerland. Access to the town of Davos was blocked by the police of Grisons, with reinforcements from other cantons, and even Austrian police, which was unprecedented. On Saturday January 25, the day scheduled for a protest march in Davos, only selected protesters were allowed to pass.

In the afternoon, some of the protesters that were turned away outside Davos travelled to Bern, where the demonstrations quickly degenerated into full-scale riots, with thirty arrested and three policemen injured. The police prevented the protesters from entering the historical center of the city. The director of the Bernese police, Kurt Wasserfallen, referred to the events as "terrorism".

Meanwhile, the protesters who were allowed to enter Davos demonstrated peacefully, securely cordoned off from the WEF participants. One group appeared in monkey costumes, wearing masks of various world leaders, 'adoring' a golden calf that they carried around with them. Between bursts of adoration, they bashed an inflatable globe with plastic clubs. Osama bin Laden was portrayed as raping the planet in unison with George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld.

In a picture of the protests, a protester wearing a mask of Donald Rumsfeld and a yellow, six-pointed cardboard "sheriff" badge is portrayed carrying the golden calf, and next to him, another protester impersonating Ariel Sharon is wielding a plastic club. The Rumsfeld character's badge was misinterpreted as alluding to the Star of David, or even to Nazi concentration camp badges, an interpretation that arose because low-resolution versions of the image were circulated in news reports, where the "sheriff" text on the star was not legible.


text:
Drupa

Drupa (stylized drupa) is the largest printing equipment exhibition in the world, held every four years by Messe Düsseldorf in Düsseldorf, Germany. The word drupa is a portmanteau of the German words Druck und Papier ("print and paper").

Thousands of industry experts are usually present, and corporate representation typically includes companies such as Agfa Graphics, Océ N.V., Muller Martini, EIZO, Esko, HP Inc., Xeikon, Flint Group, Heidelberger Druckmaschinen, Manroland, Kern, Pitney Bowes, New Solution, Xerox, Kodak, Canon, Transeomedia, DirectSmile, Konica Minolta, Ricoh, Martin Automatic, Komori Corporation, Fujifilm, Siegwerk, Inspectron and Koenig & Bauer AG. Several new technologies are typically demonstrated during Drupa.

Theme song
Since 2000 every drupa had its own theme song. The idea started in 1986 with a song featuring a country folk style which was later nominated as one of the worst corporate anthems ever by The Register. Nevertheless, they are one of the drupa trademarks since the theme song concept was resurrected with a dance/pop power ballad in 2000. The drupa 2004 theme song used a techno dance style while the song for 2012 was performed by Dirk Zeisler.

title: Drupa


text:
Tsakonian

Tsakonian may refer to:

 * Tsakonians
 * Tsakonian language

title: Tsakonian