text:
User:DDerby

My name is D. Derby.

See also my Wikipedia activities

Featured articles
User:Jengod has written an excellent list of often-overlooked procedures for bringing your article to featured status.

English spelling and grammar
Please do not correct usages of Commonwealth English in Wikipedia. Wikipedia accepts all common forms of English, though particular usages should be uniform throughout an article. Common usages mistaken by users of American English as misspellings include words that end in "s"ed (Anglicised/Anglicized) and punctuation outside of quotes when it is not part of the quote, "like this".

Toki Pona
The Toki Pona wikipedia now exists at Wikicities. Learn the language - by far the simplest I've ever seen - at the Toki Pona website, then create a few articles at sin Toki Pona alisona!

Heroes
People I aspire to be like: Jesus Christ. Loving yet uncompromising. Gave His life for those he loves. Homeless itinerant philosopher for 3 years. John Taylor Gatto. A teacher who teaches life, not servitude to the social-corporate system. George Washington. Turned down an offer of kingship in favor of government by the people. Johnny Cash. Wore black, gave concerts at prisons. Jonathan C. A friend who is more like the above people, or at least tries to be like them harder than anyone else I know. Chuck Norris. Contrary to popular belief, it was Chuck Norris, not meteors or global climate change, that killed the dinosaurs.

List of films that provide accurate and revealing looks at world affairs
Americans should watch these films because Americans often know too little about the world around them. And because these films are good.

 * Brokedown Palace - read the real-life story of Schapelle Corby first. For deep thinkers, it's also a postmodern take on Christ's words "greater love has no man than this, that one lay down his life for his friend." (Later) I had to write this article after some lamer created it with the text "Brokedown Palace is a movie that stars Claire Danes. It is quite lame." Thanks to *drew for adding all the standard details and making it look nice.
 * Hotel Rwanda. The story of a man who fights to save lives in the 1994 Rwandan genocide.
 * Maria Full of Grace. A Columbian woman becomes a drug mule, visits America.
 * Lord of War - release date September 16, 2005. A look at the international illegal arms trade. See its Rotten Tomatoes page. I don't know the quality of this film firsthand yet; there is no consensus among reviewers.

Major props
RickK was an awesome editor, a voice of reason and a dam standing firm against the crap that finds itself into Wikipedia every day. I miss him. DDerby 06:08, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Old illustrations
Currently preparing to upload ~15 images from Pictoral History of the United States of America, published 1855 - waiting until I can get on my other computer and save them as PNGs. I will update the images as I find time to clean them up in an image editor. See also commons:User:DDerby

Unwanted content
Articles that receive a lot of vandalism, fandalism (thanks, RMaloney!), POV, graffiti, and other unwanted edits include:

 * 2005 (and various day of the year entries) - this article is vandalized regularly, in addition to attracting some not-quite-relevant entries like breakups of somewhat notable bands.
 * Good Charlotte
 * Napoleon Dynamite
 * George W. Bush - at 01:18, 8 September 2005 (UTC), 2 out of the previous 50 edits were useful, one of which was by a logged-in user. 21 vandalisms were performed by 17 unique non-logged-in IPs and 2 logged-in users. All within 21 hours.

(from wp:vand) A 2002 study by IBM found that most Wikipedia vandalism is reverted within five minutes. (See official results.)

External link spam
External spam links are a growing problem on Wikipedia, particularly in business-related articles (venture capital) and articles on topics that attract a lot of business (golf). Some of my criteria for spam removal are:
 * 1) If anyone posts similar links to more than two articles, it is spam and can be removed. See edits by Special:Contributions/Danjwp. Such a person can be called a "linkspammer."
 * 2) If a link goes to a subpage of a generic site, the link may be removed as spam if the subpage is not extremely useful and original. For example, links to drumscore.com such as The Killers Drum Kit Scores (note that I removed these because of criteria #1, not #2). To comment on this, see Wikipedia talk:Spam.

Marketing and related topics in particular receive lots of spam links.

See Spam for more on this growing problem, and what kinds of links you can help search and destroy.

Here is a message, possibly a future template, to use in the talk pages of external link spammers. It's really hard to assume good faith, especially from someone named User_talk:NBA-Forum.net, but he began making good edits after I gave him a message similar to this:

Possible message template for external link spammers
Your recent edit history consists entirely of adding an external link to Wikipedia articles. Putting a link in multiple articles is considered spam. This specific link, NBA-Boards.com, is inappropriate for Wikipedia because it can not be accessed at all without logging in. Please be careful about adding external links to articles. But please continue to be bold and improve the encyclopedia! ~

produces

Your recent edit history consists entirely of adding an external link to Wikipedia articles. Putting a link in multiple articles is considered spam. This specific link, NBA-Boards.com, is inappropriate for Wikipedia because it can not be accessed at all without logging in. Please be careful about adding external links to articles. But please continue to be bold and improve the encyclopedia! ~

Other templates: Please do not add commercial links (or links to your own private websites) to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. You are, however, encouraged to add content instead of links to the encyclopedia. See the welcome page to learn more. Thanks. Please stop. If you continue to use Wikipedia for advertising, you will be blocked from editing. Adding unrelated external links to articles is considered vandalism. If you continue to use Wikipedia for advertising, you will be blocked from editing. This is your last warning. The next time you insert a spam link, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia.
 * Template:Spam
 * Template:Spam2
 * or, Template:Spam2a
 * Template:Spam3
 * Template:Spam4

title: User:DDerby


text: Category:Brazilian philosophers

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category:Brazilian philosophers


text:
Max Kämper

Max Kämper (16 December 1879 in Jüterbog – 10 November 1916 in Sailly-Saillisel) was a German mining engineer.

His 1908 survey and map of Mammoth Cave, Kentucky, assisted by cave guide Ed Bishop, represent the first accurate instrumental survey of portions of the cave system. Kämper arrived at Mammoth Cave in 1908 and left 8 months later in 1909.

Kämper was killed in trench warfare at the Somme River in north-eastern France, on 10 November 1916, during the closing days of the Battle of the Somme. He is buried in the War Cemetery of Cambrai near Arras, France.

title: Max Kämper


text: Category:German logicians

title: Category:German logicians


text:
Talk:David Prowse

Initial comment
Is this article a stub? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.155.48 (talk) 23:26, 9 April 2005 (UTC)

Bullworker
Dave Prowse was involved with the first Bullworker model when it came out in the early 1970s. There is a full-length photo of him in the exercise booklet. -- 82.9.220.244 22:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Darth Vader
Why David Prowse didn't act as Darth Vader in Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.93.174.102 (talk • contribs) at 14:37, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Because the poor guy is almost 70. Let him retire already. :) Robert Mercer 18:30, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

 * It all started due to some argument Prowse had with Lucas (Prowse wasn't invited to the premieres). According to Prowse, he actually hoped that Lucas would get into contact with him for episode 3. It was not to be though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hashimashadoo (talk • contribs) at 02:48, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Sir ?
Since Prowse now has an MBE would he also be allowed to use the title "Sir" ? This is how Paul McCartney's page lists it. Dowew 23:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
 * According to some lengthy discussion at Talk:British honours system, MBE is not a knightly rank, and so does not accord its holder the style "Sir". However, some MBEs have also been made knights bachelor, which has no postnominals but is a knightly rank (but not membership in a knightly order).  So "Sir Paul McCartney, MBE" is not "Sir" because of the MBE, but happens to be both an MBE and a knight bachelor.  Talk about arcane. --Delirium 02:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

David Prowse IS Darth Vader
He was signing his autographs like that long before Episodes 1-3. This article gives the impression that he recently started this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.149.228.71 (talk • contribs) at 19:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

info?
Hey, if you need any info just ask me... I'm his nephew! Cokehabit 02:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Crumbs. But there's a problem, which is that Wikipedia can't use original research or first-hand information. I'm not sure of the conventions that come into play when a famous person edits his own Wikipedia entry, but facts and figures all have to have an authoritative source from a book or newspaper (for example). Otherwise we'd have a situation where John Prescott could add reams of information about his kindness to animals and love of opera etc that no-one else would be able to verify. - Ashley Pomeroy 02:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

David Prowse's height
so many sources list david prowse as 6'7" and Darth Vader also as 6'7". Now what is David's real height? He's always stated 6'7" in anything I've read (also see his website) and looks it in pictures from the 70's and 80's, but has lost height in the last decade or so because of medical problems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lieutenant Dol Grenn (talk • contribs) at 11:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * David Prowse used to be 6' 7" but he has lost two inches due to his age. He is now 6' 5" in height. Visit celebheights.com for more info. MM 11:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

arthritis
What kind of arthritis does he have? Was it juvenile rheumatoid arthritis that then became ordinary rheumatoid arthritis, or is it another kind? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.206.139 (talk • contribs) at 21:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Any Relation?
Is David related to Juliet Prowse? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.75.232.54 (talk • contribs) at 08:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sad to say, no. Juliet's parents were South African; David, as noted in the biography, was a native of Bristol. – Wbwn 18:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Added FUR for Dave Prowse Champions.JPG
I've added a fair use rationale to Image:Dave Prowse Champions.JPG, and removed the deletion notifications as I believe there is no reason to remove this image. Feel free to improve the rationale if you can. Cheers, Face 18:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

'Other activities'
Article says "In January 2009 Prowse teamed up with respected musician Jayce Lewis after the pair managing his band. Jayce Lewis signed a 5 year deal with Industry giant EMI Records later Prowse and Lewis formed an association with Dave being his sole contact for PR, An alliance that has proven very successful .[5]" There's a bunch of partial sentences and such in this that someone aught to clear up. I'm not sure what it's supposed to say so I'll not try. 68.148.227.148 (talk) 01:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)AMCKen

I noticed this too, but the source link doesn't provide any clues. I recommend removing this paragraph, as it currently makes no sense. Nosecohn (talk) 03:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Darth Vader malaise?
Would it be worth noting that Prowse has shown a Gary Coleman-esque displeasure with constantly being associated with Darth Vader? I know we would need a larger array of testimonials to make it more credible, but speaking from personal experience, it might be true (or have been at one point). I don't know the specific date or location, but some time in the late 1990s my mother met Prowse at a convention where she reports he was very sluggish and grumpy, not even looking up at fans as they came up to have him autograph various Star Wars memorabilia. When she slid a Clockwork Orange poster under his drooping head, he paused with surprise before perking up with glee and acknowledging his delight that someone remembered any of his other roles. An amusing anecdote, but can anyone confirm similar behavior and, if so, proof that he may or may not think this way today? He could have just been having an off day, all those years ago, but I thought it would be worth bringing up. CrunchyB (talk) 05:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. His official website, www.darthvader-starwars.com, seems to indicate that he relishes, or at least has resigned himself to, the association. Nosecohn (talk) 03:57, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Reomoved
I spent a few hours adding references and links to this site but some user has edited them out. Can people please keep references in place! The links if who ever you are, had followed them where of interviews with him. Also link about his body building etc. Also the fact the paper stories in 2010 have been removed abou his latest up set with Lucus Films. WHY? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.29.221.1 (talk) 14:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Why?
Is someone able to provide information as to why it was necessary not to inform Prowse about Darth Vader's true line in The Empire Strikes Back, and add this to the article? It seems rather curious. --Thathánka Íyotake (talk) 00:49, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, it would be awfully interesting to know what line he had instead at the filming of the scene.--Thathánka Íyotake (talk) 22:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
 * See here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empire_Strikes_Back#Production "Like the rest of the crew, Prowse—who spoke all of Vader's lines during filming—was given a false page that contained dialogue with the revelatory line being 'Obi-Wan killed your father.'" I think the reason is clear. The more people know the more likely it is that someone will accidentally reveal it. -- DvsseI (talk) 20:43, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

James Earl Jones
Why should the voice actor of Darth Vader get credit in the first para and not any of the other half dozen or so actors who portrayed Dart Vader? This makes it seem like only two people played Vader. It should be all or none.

109.70.42.237 (talk) 00:27, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101229200043/http://orderofthesith.net/ to http://www.orderofthesith.net/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101002040121/http://www.theforce.net:80/latestnews/story/david_prowse_not_invited_to_cv_132099.asp to http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/david_prowse_not_invited_to_cv_132099.asp

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External links modified
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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:53, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Dave Prowse & Jayce Lewis.JPG

Date of death
His agent says in a Facebook post that he died yesterday morning. --Thibaut (talk) 10:18, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It appears that BBC is confirming the date. Please see https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/29/entertainment/david-prowse-darth-vadar-star-wars-dies-gbr-scli-intl/index.html Jurisdicta (talk) 01:28, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Right eye
What was wrong with his right eye/eyesocket, which seemed to be disfigured in his old age? Not being nasty, just genuinely interested (and I doubt I'm the only person who wondered).Paulturtle (talk) 22:30, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I wonder whether it was some condition caused by excessive bone growth, which afflicts very tall people. Richard Kiel's facial features grew ever odder as he got older. But I'm happy to be corrected.Paulturtle (talk) 04:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Euronews obituary
Have they taken information from here for the Gym bit, I wanted to use the source for a cn tag, do peeps this this is okay to use or not? euronews source. Govvy (talk) 23:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Cause of death
Hi all. This article from the Mirror has a direct quote from his daughter specifically stating he died from Covid 19. "Rachel said: "He died of coronavirus. It's horrible to have not got to see him on the ward and say goodbye, it makes it even harder." https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/darth-vader-star-david-prowses-23090928 I hope you add it in please. the last paragraph of the article says he died of Covid-19. I can't find a proper source for this. He was diagnosed with cancer in 2009, which is stated even in the sources given after the paraggraphs's sources. Or he died of an "illness". Only news.au, citing British tabloid the Sun, mentions covid-19. Saemikneu (talk) 12:21, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I've removed it. Almost all sources that were reporting on this yesterday (BBC, CBC, CNN, the Star Wars website) say "a short illness", "an unspecified illness", or the like. The Sun reports that his daughter confirmed that he died of coronavirus, but the quote they attribute that to is "It’s horrible that Covid restrictions meant we did not get to see him and say goodbye." Those restrictions would have prevented their visiting the hospital no matter the cause of death; it's a sensationalized attribution, and had he actually died of the coronavirus it no doubt would be much more significant news (as it was for John Prine, etc). The other sources repeating this attribute it to The Sun or "UK papers". Unless a more reliable source runs with this, it's a rumour and we should not repeat it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:21, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I am aware that the following is not a valid wiki source, but will place it in this discussion, as it seems some users are intent on inserting incorrect information. His daughter did *not* confirm covid-19 to the Sun. Source - I was in the room. As Ivanvector correctly identifies, if she had done so, there would be a direct attributable quote saying so. There is not. Redmark (talk) 19:46, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * While this piece from Deadline Hollywood—which is a generally reliable source—seems to go so far as to assert that Prowse not only had COVID, but the length of time he had been hospitalized with it, upon closer inspection, it stops short of actually producing a quote beyond that one from the Sun (a deprecated source) that appears to have been sufficiently litigated here. With all of this being known, I think there should be a hidden note in the death section pointing to this to deter any further edits, pending a confirmation from something that does not run back to The Sun.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 20:53, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Update: I have added the note.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 21:02, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Deadline says that he died from COVID-19:

https://deadline.com/2020/11/david-prowse-darth-vader-covid-coronavirus-cause-of-death-star-wars-1234623134/ MikaelaArsenault (talk) 14:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, this is the same article that I previously referenced in this discussion. The issues that are causing significant pause here is that the article only refers back to a report in The Sun, and the quote that they feature from his daughter only mentions that the family could not be with Prowse at the end of his life due to COVID-19 restrictions, not necessarily because he specifically had COVID. Any further inference appears to be conjecture and should be considered as such, unless a reliable source can independently confirm otherwise.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 16:22, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Confirmed cause of death
It's accepted that David Prowse was infected with COVID-19. It turned out to be very severe and he died shortly after. SohamDG (talk) 18:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for this? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:14, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * As an update, this was picked up by a columnist and published in the National Post, generally a very reliable source for things that aren't the Canadian oil industry, however the columnist clearly refers to the quote published in the Sun over the weekend. It's still not being widely reported, and I think we still should not include it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:23, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi all. This article from the Mirror has a direct quote from his daughter specifically stating he died from Covid 19. "Rachel said: "He died of coronavirus. It's horrible to have not got to see him on the ward and say goodbye, it makes it even harder." https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/darth-vader-star-david-prowses-23090928 I hope you add it in please. It has a direct quote from his daughter and is from the Mirror not the Sun — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.19.97.116 (talk) 06:00, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:RSPSRC says about the Daily Mirror: "The Daily Mirror is a tabloid newspaper that publishes tabloid journalism. There is no consensus on whether its reliability is comparable to other British tabloids." Interesting that the quote that they attributed to Prowse's daughter is different from the one the Sun published, that raises doubts in my mind. It's still not being repeated by more generally reliable sources, and I think it's still not good enough. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:56, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Jaws
I just found this interview with Prowse which was recently uploaded on youtube. From about 10:30 he says he was offered the part of  Jaws from James Bond before Richard Kiel. Is this source admissible? G-13114 (talk) 03:07, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't have used the Youtube video, but seems like you found a better source anyway. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Page move?
Why was the page moved without discussion?? Govvy (talk) 14:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Good question. A google search for "David Prowse" returns 6,790,000 results, whilst a search for "Dave Prowse" returns 4,380,000 results. So it appears the former name was the more common. [EDIT: I tried to link directly to the search results but the link just went to the main Google page, so you'll just have to do your own search to confirm it.] G-13114 (talk) 21:13, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt the logic behind the move but, For an admin, I feel you've been rather short sighted here and should of request a page move with weight of evidence for it rather than move the page which has been sitting here for a rather long time under this name. Just feels like an admin breaking all the rules! Govvy (talk) 23:19, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I saw the move but thought it was rational and within the scope of WP:BOLD. If there's a better argument to have it at the old title, the right thing to do would be to start a move request. Admin rights have nothing to do with this. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 00:38, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Quite. There is no need for discussion if the move is a blatantly obvious and uncontroversial one. I have no idea why this article has been at David Prowse for so long when he has always been commonly known as Dave Prowse since at least 1977 and the appearance of Star Wars. The obits after his death (all of which referred to him as Dave Prowse, as does his own website) just completely confirmed the ludicrousness of the previous article name. Common name is not dictated by Google searches. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:48, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * But if there is opposition to this I'll move it back and we can have an RM to come to the same conclusion. Frankly I see no need for added bureaucracy for such an obvious move. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * In addition to his own website, both books published in his own name ('Straight from the Forces Mouth' and 'Fitness is Fun') use Dave Prowse rather than David. IMDB page is listed as David, but refers to 'David "Dave" Prowse'.Redmark (talk) 11:23, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * In all, I don't know, maybe it needed to be moved, however I fail to see etiquette followed here. It's not hard to have a discussion, present evidence why something should be changed. Instead we have a move action explained as COMMONNAME, which doesn't actually provide sources. Hence why we have move requests in the first place! :/ Govvy (talk) 15:16, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:IAR. We're here to build an encyclopedia, not to blindly follow rules just for the sake of following them. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * So, what are you saying, that we should always open an RM discussion before every page move? Because that's certainly not common procedure on Wikipedia. I must have moved thousands of pages without discussion in my time here. And I've seen many more moved without discussion by other editors. WP:RMNOT #1: I see no controversy here given the overwhelming evidence of his common name. The simple fact is, who actually does know him as David Prowse? And why wasn't this page created as Dave Prowse in the first place? -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:29, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how you've got the idea that it's the common name. Looking at the results of a google news search ( https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="david+prowse"&tbm=nws&ei=OPnLX6CJAZCW8gKlkorQDg&start=0&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwighZyc4rftAhUQi1wKHSWJAuo4FBDy0wMIhwE&biw=1366&bih=627&dpr=1 ) The overwhelming majority of news reports refer to him as David............P.S. does anyone know how to make a direct link to a google search result? Simply pasting the URL just takes you to the main page. However pasting the text of the URL and then copying it into your search box seems to work, albeit very cumbersome. G-13114 (talk) 21:31, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * His own website, his management company's website, The BBC, The Guardian, The Independent, The Telegraph, New York Times, Associated Press, The Sun, Huffington Post. Note that some publications use his full name in the headline, but then refer to him as Dave in the body of the text. This is not unusual in obituaries. Also note that although he was probably billed as David Prowse in the Star Wars films, he was always known as Dave Prowse to fans right from the beginning (yes, I'm old enough to remember the release of the original film in 1977). -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:20, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I only just came upon this and I am reverting the move. Propose a RM if you disagree. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Request for comments - cause of death
Should Dave Prowse's cause of death be listed as COVID-19? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:09, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

There's a discussion a few threads up about Prowse's recent death, and about whether or not the available sourcing is sufficient to state that he died of COVID-19. The uncertainty revolves around two quotes from Prowse's daughter published in The Sun and the Daily Mirror. WP:RSPSRC describes the Sun as "generally unreliable" and "actively discouraged from being used in any article"; the Daily Mirror is described as "a tabloid newspaper that publishes tabloid journalism". The published quotes are:
 * The Sun: “It’s horrible that Covid restrictions meant we did not get to see him and say goodbye. But when we went to collect his stuff from the hospital the nurse said what a cool guy he was. He was such a larger-than-life character.”
 * The Daily Mirror: ""He died of coronavirus. It's horrible to have not got to see him on the ward and say goodbye, it makes it even harder. We would have had a big celebration of his life, but now [due to coronavirus restrictions] we are not going to be able to do the send off we would have wanted for him."

Many smaller news publications (especially celebrity news) ran with "died of coronavirus" either attributed directly to the Sun or without attribution, however more mainstream news sources did not, (for example the sources currently in use, CNN, BBC, Variety). Those sources instead quote a release by Prowse's agency saying he died "after a short illness" (some sources say "unspecified illness"). Our discussion landed on "after a short, unspecified illness" due to only being able to trace statements back to the two tabloids, and because of a feeling that had he died of coronavirus it would be much more widely reported (as it was with John Prine and Herman Cain, though maybe there are other biases at work there), and/or that if his death was revealed to be due to coronavirus by more official sources that mainstream publications would pick up on it later, but they have not. Despite a hidden comment referring to the discussion, the cause of death has been changed back to COVID-19 several times by drive-bys.

Is the sourcing reliable enough here to say he died of COVID-19, or should it be left as "unspecified"? (Or something else?) Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:10, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

It should be left unspecified. Rondolinda Talk, 10:23 PM 5 December 2020 (UTC)

 * Unspecified Unless there's a reliable source... ~ HAL  333  06:19, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Unspecified The sources for a coronavirus or Covid-19 CoD all appear to be celebrity news and gossip sources. The general theme in RS seems to be  either "after a short illness" (per Prouse's agent) or "no cause of death was released" (per "the family"). Given his previously well-known Alzheimer's and prostate cancer issues, listing any CoD in these circumstances is does not follow the sources. [[User:Eggishorn|Eggishorn ]] (talk) (contrib) 19:39, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes The Hollywood Reporter has reported his cause of death as COVID without referring back to the Sun article. Kire1975 (talk) 04:47, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Good find, but I'd like this to be based on something better. The Hollywood Reporter is generally reliable, but they have included Prowse in a list introduced as 300,000 Americans who died from COVID-19, and haven't referred to any source at all. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:14, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , you mischaracterize your source. That article is not the product of  Hollywood Reporter's editorial staff (which would mean they took responsibility for its contents and our RS would apply) it is the personal reminiscences of Nathan Lane.  We have no way of knowing from the article if Lane is calling Prowse's death Covid-related because of the social media or tabloid journalism or if he has actual knowledge.  The article does not even state how Lane came to think Prowse's death was Covid-related since it is really about Prowse's life, not death.  This is not a RS for Prowse's CoD. [[User:Eggishorn|Eggishorn ]] (talk) (contrib) 15:18, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you misread. The article has various authors and it was compiled by THR staff. Only the segment about McNally is Lane's writing. Nohomersryan (talk) 06:15, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes Better non-tabloid sources are stating Prowse passed from COVID. Rusted AutoParts  11:43, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Unspecified due to lack of reliable sources. Idealigic (talk) 14:15, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Unspecified The sources aren't reliable enough to conclusively say that he died from Covid-19. Some1 (talk) 23:41, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Clearly specified as covid. There are tons of sources for that besides the two above-mentioned newspapers, just the first ones that come up with a quick Internet search:

https://deadline.com/2020/11/david-prowse-darth-vader-covid-coronavirus-cause-of-death-star-wars-1234623134/ https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2020/12/1/21761708/david-prowse-star-wars-death-covid-19 https://cdn.fullscreen.nz/fullscreen/region-error.html http://www.businessworld.in/article/David-Prowse-died-due-to-COVID-19-confirms-daughter/30-11-2020-348348/ https://www.nme.com/en_asia/news/film/star-wars-icon-david-prowse-battled-coronavirus-before-his-death-2828307 https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/star-wars-actor-david-prowse-155935782.html https://screenrant.com/david-prowse-death-cause-covid-19/ https://nypost.com/2020/11/30/darth-vader-actor-david-prowse-reportedly-died-from-covid-19/

Most importantly, his own daughter stated that he died of covid, and had obviously no reason to lie about that. Using some lame euphemism like "short illness" and trying to hide that he died of covid would be utterly ridiculous and unworthy of the standards of Wikipedia. Ivanvector seems to be trying all he can to hide the fact that Prowse obviously died of covid, as shown by his previous attempt shown above. --Tognella99 (talk) 20:32, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , I think maybe reviewing WP:V and WP:RS would be instructive. What you posted is not "tons of sources" but rather multiple outlets repeating one source -- a social media post by his presumed daughter. Per WP:SOCIAL, this is not acceptable as a RS.  Notice every article says that Prowse is reported to have died from Covid or says that his daughter claims he died of Covid.  These articles are not independent verification of the cause of death. Furthermore, calling this one editor's attempt to hide something may well be perceived as a WP:PA and should be withdrawn.  There are four other editors who independently have reached the same conclusion so  is not on a solo coverup kick as you imply.  [[User:Eggishorn|Eggishorn ]] (talk) (contrib) 21:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I did. The articles I posted are indeed multiple sources confirming that he died of covid. You and the other couple of deniers summoned by Ivanvector (WP:Canvassing), on the other hand, have not provided anything more than a couple of outlets by presumed journalists using an euphemism for covid. There is an equal number of editors who reached the opposite conclusion, as you can see here, but you simply want to push your POV, that's all. --Tognella99 (talk) 00:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * , if you are going to accuse of canvassing or me of being canvassed, you'd better have damn good evidence of it.  Since I'm almost completely certain you don't, I expect a retraction presently.  [[User:Eggishorn|Eggishorn ]] (talk) (contrib) 01:35, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree. You can’t say that users were summoned by another user without providing receipts. Evidence. Proof. There are a million names for it. Just because editors oppose your comments, it doesn’t mean they are teaming. Assume a bit of good faith, please. Not everyone is out to get you. D🎉ggy54321 (happy new year!) 04:22, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 * Compromise Would there be any objections to put something like "Prowse died at a hospital in London, England, on 28 November 2020, at 85 after an illness some reports indicate was COVID-19"? Jazzhands90 (talk) 21:12, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I object to this particular wording per WP:WEASEL. It would normally be fine to attribute this sort of information to the source, but in this case the source is a tabloid, and one that is noted for unreliable and sometimes deliberately false reporting to generate revenue. Wikipedia is never finished - it's fine in the interest of protecting biographies of living (or recently deceased) persons from misstatements to exclude information like this, until there is confirmation in some kind of high-quality source, which would itself be sourced to a medical report rather than a broken quote from a family member. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:49, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Page on list of deaths due to covid
David Prowse remains on the list at List of deaths due to COVID-19 The people there seem to insist that Prowse's alleged death to covid-19 is confirmed by "reliable sources". All things aside, isn't it at least important to have consistency within Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Topotrivl (talk • contribs) 05:40, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

 * Yes, it's good to be consistent, but it's more important to not publish unreliably sourced information about living (or recently deceased) persons. I have removed David Prowse from the list, pending conclusion of the discussion above. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:54, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2022
He appeared as strongman Jem Pollock in A Horseman Riding By (1978), a BBC adaptation of novels by R. F. Delderfield. Ianariano (talk) 17:16, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. IMDb is user generated, so not a reliable source. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:36, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

 * ✅ added with the new BFI source given. Thanks! Hemantha (talk) 05:11, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Prowse Vader Story
https://www.quora.com/Did-anyone-guess-that-Vader-was-Lukes-father-after-the-first-film-came-out-His-name-implies-it-but-did-anyone-see-that Drsruli (talk) 20:07, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

What’s with the cat?
Is it some interference in the force that has caused it to appear? 49.207.197.251 (talk) 19:07, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

To Tell The Truth
It should be noted that David Prowse was actually a contestant on the syndicated version of the game show To Tell The Truth in 1977, when Joe Garagiola hosted. I've added it in the article, as there is a clip of Prowse as a contestant on To Tell The Truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5mWzWwbOA

(2601:C6:8480:1F10:B9A5:B6EC:8E60:FFB8 (talk) 01:21, 9 September 2023 (UTC))

title: Talk:David Prowse


text:
Maurice Bossy

Maurice Louis Bossy (April 1, 1929 – November 29, 2008) was a politician in Ontario, Canada. He was a Liberal member of the House of Commons of Canada from 1980 to 1984, and represented the Ontario Liberal Party in the Legislative Assembly of Ontario from 1985 to 1990.

Background
Bossy was educated at Pain Court, Ontario, and worked for many years as a farmer, and a traveling fertilizer salesman for Canada Packers. He served on several Kent County School Boards in the late 1960s, and was also a member of the Royal Canadian Legion and Knights of Columbus, was active in RC Parish Council in both home parishes in Dresden and Chatham, performed as part of a local dance band specializing in polka music.

Bossy married Margaret Lanckriet in 1950 and together they raised 7 children.

Federal politics
Bossy was elected to the House of Commons in the federal election of 1980, defeating Progressive Conservative incumbent Bob Holmes by 847 votes in the southwestern Ontario riding of Kent. He served as parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Supply and Services from March 1 to September 30, 1982, and to the Secretary of State for Canada from October 1, 1982 to February 29, 1984.

The Liberals were defeated in the 1984 federal election, and Bossy lost to Progressive Conservative Elliott Hardey by over 5,000 votes.

Provincial politics
The following year, having been recruited by new provincial Liberal leader David Peterson, Bossy sought election for the Ontario Liberal Party in the riding of Chatham—Kent, and defeated incumbent Progressive Conservative Andy Watson by 1,134 votes. The Liberals formed a minority government after this election and Bossy was appointed as parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Housing in 1987. He was re-elected by an increased margin in the 1987 provincial election, in which Peterson's Liberals won a landslide majority.

The Liberals were defeated in the 1990 provincial election, and Bossy too, losing his legislative seat to New Democrat Randy Hope by almost 4,000 votes.

Later life
In 1994, Bossy signed a petition calling for the introduction of an ethanol industry in Canada.

title: Maurice Bossy


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lakes of the Meadow Library

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. — Xezbeth 13:29, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Lakes of the Meadow Library
The article doesn't provide any reason why this is any more notable than any other ordinary public library. Delete. — Ливай | ☺ 23:26, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, what if I wanna go on a Friday? --Asriel86 00:15, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Apparently, Friday and Sunday are the days the unfriendly staff is there, and they won't welcome you. But you can still go if you want to. --Angr/comhrá 16:14, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep All public libraries as public institutions are notable by nature. Klonimus 08:11, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Eleven-plus

Articulation to A Levels
I was a secondary modern student who completed GCE O Levels in 1964. My results were good. Had I been a student at a Grammar School I would have had no difficulty in proceeding to A Levels. However, my school offered no assistance to students who wished to study for A Levels. Neither was it possible for me to transfer to the local Grammar School. Attempts to achieve this met with blank refusal (without reasons being given. Fortunately, my family emigrated to Australia where I entered a High School which prepared me for university entrance examinations. I subsequently completed Bachelors and Masters degrees and became a psychologist. If I had stayed in England I would have found it extremely difficult to achieve the same outcome.

My major complaint about the English Tripartite system of education at the time I attended school in England was the extreme difficulty experienced by secondary modern students who wished to study for A Levels. I can see no satisfactory justification for this situation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.78.118 (talk) 03:55, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Counties
The article says: "In counties in which vestiges of the Tripartite System still survive" ... But there is no listing of these counties. Could one be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.8.35 (talk) 15:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Figures
If anyone could provide some firm percentages for intakes in different areas that would be fantastic, i can't seem to find any sources and I'm going on memory at the moment. Also the article on Grammar schools in the United Kingdom seems to have a lot about the eleven plus if anyone feels more confident than me in reaming information from it. --Pluke 23:26, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's also a danger of not comparing like with like - secondary technical schools were I think more common in the North Midlands (Notts? and certainly in Derby) than in the 'South West' ( where was that anyway? Gloucester to Cornwall?? That's at least half a dozen LEAs! Linuxlad 12:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC))

Reference Grammar schools and 11+ the Wirral has some of the highest number of Grammar schools in the country. Contact Wirral Borough Council Education Authority, they should have the figure, but remember the individual schools of the grammar system there handle their own entry process and guidelines i.e. Wirral Grammar for Boys and Wirral Grammar for girls. St Anselms for Boys have a separate entrance exam of their own. This by the way is the North West area.

WIP
some arguments to include in this page: I'm still looking for more pro grammar/pro selection articles, if you know of any please link them here, so appologies if this looks all anti grammar school, i'm still searching! --Pluke 14:06, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * http://www.casenet.org.uk/sayno/perform.html
 * http://education.guardian.co.uk/secondaries/story/0,12389,811843,00.html
 * http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/features/mike_baker/2763973.stm
 * http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/2713105.stm
 * http://www.york.ac.uk/search/cgi-bin/monitor.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.york.ac.uk%2Fdepts%2Fecon%2Fdp%2F0052.pdf&rank=4&search_words=grammar%20school
 * http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,1490391,00.html

 * I put a several links into my site on 11+ news and corrected the figure on the List of grammar schools in England as it is so out of date it is ridiculous! It is 174 not 164. I also put details into each Local Authority page so that people would be able to get the latest details but I got these messages back:
 * Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. However, please do not add promotional material to articles or other Wikipedia pages, as you did to Buckinghamshire. Advertising and using Wikipedia as a "soapbox" is strongly discouraged. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you. Plus e.g. additional sites Eleven Plus, Bexley, etc Tmol42 (talk) 11:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia, as you did to Calderdale. Wikipedia is not a collection of links, nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites with which you are affiliated, and links that attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam guideline for further explanations. Since Wikipedia uses the nofollow attribute value, its external links are disregarded by some search engines, including Google. If you feel the link should be added to the article, please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. Thank you. - Pointillist (talk) 12:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wiki needs updating on these details,it is incorrect, 10 schools have not been included. Rather than just removing the links they should have updated the pages.
 * It is a shame as thay could just have asked if I minded updating the pages, I spend at least an hour a day searching for 11+ News and am not going to copy it across if it will just get undone.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by PlanetBOFA (talk • contribs) 12:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Debates_on_the_grammar_school seems to be quite a bit of overlap here, will get round to tidying it up when possible  --Pluke 07:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Way ahead of you- revised article going up now.--Evil Capitalist 17:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Fantastic work! Any chance you have access to the pass percentages in different regions as I've been looking for a source to explain the predominance of Essex Grammar schools in the high end of league tables due to the pass rate of this exam (3%ish i believe)? --Pluke 07:20, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Afraid not- most of the figures I have come either from lectures (which, sadly, come without footnotes), or from old books on the subject I've dragged up. Checking the Times Archive (which my university kindly subscribes to) I seem unable to bring up much at all on the topic, which makes me suspect that the information probably wasn't published, or at the very least wasn't publicised. Of course, if you're particularly keen to find the answer, the Freedom of Information Act would mean you could get ahold of it with a little whinging in the right places...--Evil Capitalist 14:38, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Tense
The eleven plus is talked about here in the past tense... it still exists and is taken by thousands every year...a little misleading?

 * The article does refer to it in the past tense but this is due to the fact that the exam is taken by a small minority of people as opposed to previously, when it was universally taken. If you really think it would be better reworded don't be afraid of jumping in and trying yourself--Pluke 12:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I think the the major usage of the term is to the eleven-plus as once used (determining the future academic career of every schoolchild in Britain); the exam taken these days at the same age is not really comparable in effect. And the article makes this point, I think, by using the past tense when talking about the old system. --Telsa ((t)(c)) 16:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Tense-switching (the exam was / the exam is) still jars, however. I don't believe the problem of referring to a once universal, now only locally used, examination in the one article has yet been resolved. Before anyone answers "Well, go ahead and fix it then", I do have my thinking-cap on. This is just advance warning / a plea for any helpful suggestions. -- Picapica 12:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The "Scholarship"
I can't find a nice cite for this, so can anyone else? I gather that the eleven-plus was referred to as "the Scholarship" in at least some parts of Britain in the fifties. "He's passed his Scholarship" and so on. According to the person who was reminiscing about this, it was definitely seen as an exam you either passed (went to grammar school) or failed (went elsewhere), and everyone in the town would know about it. This term "scholarship" was in use in at least south-east Wales in the early to mid fifties. Wikipedia doesn't like "Ah yes, I remember it well" as a source for information, so has anyone found mention of this somewhere cite-able, by any chance? Was it used anywhere else? --Telsa ((t)(c)) 16:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I sat the 'scholarship' in Berwick-upon-Tweed in 1964, so Northumberland county called it.Tudric

The 11+ was referred to colloquially as 'the Scholarship' in West Sussex in the early/mid fifties. West Sussex also had one of the few Technical Schools ever built under the Tripartite System - the Technical High School in Worthing, opened in 1955 and which I attended from 1956.

 * Thanks for those. We need a reference (as per WP:V) before we can put this in though. Still hoping to find something we can cite. Telsa (talk) 07:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I also took the scholarship to go to Strutts Grammar School in Belper in 1949. I don't recall any mention of eleven plus or secondary moderns. (The first in my area I think was Allestree Woodlands) Those who failed the scolarship either worked for their fathers (farming for instance) or took apprenticeships. This was before the school leaving age was raised to 15 Chevin 16:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Only anecdotal, I'm afraid: before 1944, admission to grammar schools was open to those who passed an exam called the Scholarship and whose parents could afford the fees (£10 a year, my mother told me) and the uniform. My father and his two sisters (just about middle-class, I suppose, with some family money) went to grammar school; my mother and her four siblings (father a manual worker, living in a council house) didn't, and weren't put in for the Scholarship. I suspect the 11-plus was often called the Scholarship for some time after the latter ceased to be.Snugglepuss (talk) 20:04, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Suggested material
Hmm - I actually wanted to contact Telsa directly but difficult to find out how to do so in short time available to me now. As an 11 plus failure who rebelled against being so categorised I am not that happy with what is here, even though the contributors are obviously critical. I would have liked to see the 11 plus placed within the context of intelligence testing as a whole, and some mention of the extremely thorough critiques of the whole concept of IQ, e.g http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man. I felt a bit critical of some of the assumptions of the argument; that there is some kind of "fair", "unbiased" way of doing this kind of test, which allocates people fairly - in contrast to the view that any way of abstracting the world into a quantifiable measure involves a framing of the world (decision as to what constitutes an object to be measured) which only makes sense in a social and political context. I realise that that is (to some extent) my POV but nevertheless one which I guess is not only held by me, but well, this is the discussion page - I just wanted to kick it around a bit. Also the links against the eleven plus seem very general - to do with selection for state education generally and not really examining the basis of the eleven plus in intelligence theory - I would love to find such sites. Oh well 86.129.134.44 19:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC)Donnard White

 * To contact me, you can leave a message on my talk page at User talk:Telsa. You should also be able to email me by hitting "Email this user" when looking at my talk page, but I have had trouble setting an email address, so it won't let you. To discuss this article, though, you want to bring things up on this page. I actually haven't contributed to the article much. I may have fixed a typo or something, but that's about it. So contacting me about this article may not be the best idea! On the other hand, those look like good points to me. As with so much else on Wikipedia, the main problem is referencing. I don't seem to be able to find good information on the web about any of this. Might have to resort to—horror!—books! Hope this helps. Telsa (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I have added a sentence in brackets to make the point that pupils could sometimes transfer from SM schools to grammar schools at around age 17 in order to study for A-levels. I base this purely on personal knowledge, because I recall that at my own grammar school in Essex in the 1960s there was a (small) inflow of SM pupils every year for this reason. But I don't know of any statistics on the numbers involved nationally. [David Burbridge, 16 Sept 2007] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.38.125.254 (talk) 13:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Controversy - Communists?
From the Controversy section: "For example, judging candidates on their ability to recite the succesion to the throne, their fencing and soggy biscuit playing abilities and also how many Communists they had excuted whilst serving in the White Army during the Russian Civil War made it easier for middle class children to pass the exam and also conveniently weeded out those from less wealthy or less educated backgrounds."

I am assuming this is nonsense. If someone has better, correctly-spelled alternatives, please be bolder than I am.Shouriki 02:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Scratch that, I've replaced it with a section from this history version. But still have a look, this isn't an area I'm that bright in.Shouriki 02:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The continuation of the eleven-plus has been a sectarian issue in Northern Ireland, with Unionists(mainly Protestant)supporting the exams continued usage and Nationalists(mainly Catholics)opposed. Can someone add some information explaining this ? Ken Burch 05:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Reference
The Sampson reference is to 'anatomy of britain today' not 'modern britain' but i'm unsure how to fix it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sarahjeantaylor (talk • contribs) 21:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC).

Age group
The age group of the takers is not 11-12, but 10-11. I was 10 when I took it. perhaps this sentence should be taken out? or perhaps it should be said that the age of 11-12 is that which is gained by the time the school is actually attended (I was 11 by the time next September came around. I took the test in November.)

Jake the Editor Man ( talk  ) 21:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

 * There's a lot of confusion because as far as I can see, the state sector has never had uniformity of transfer ages across the country and changes over the years just increase the lay confusion. See Three-tier education for the wide variety around. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

 * As you say, it's the age of entry rather than of testing. I've tried to clarify the wording.  Kanguole 14:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Controversy NPOV/Weasel Words
The Controversy section is not presented from a neutral point of view. It is written as if the 11+ was or is necessarily a bad thing. It also uses a classic non-sequitur when it states ( as fact ) that because of the 35%/10% difference in pass rates between the South West and Nottinghamshire, the results must have been determined other than by ability. You can only make such a statement if you assume that the population of the South West at the time of the quoted results was equally academically gifted as the population of Nottinghamshire, and since even today those parts of the country have quite different demographics, it seems unreasonable to make such an unwarranted assumption.

It is also full of weasel-words; indeed, it even uses the classic "critics say" that is one of the first things listed on Wikipedia's Avoid weasel words page. In a couple of cases, weasel-words have been used to include disparaging remarks about the middle classes (for instance, the part about how middle-class opposition to the eleven plus exam came about because of "greater fairness" in the exam itself). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.160.244 (talk • contribs) 15:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Response to second paragraph (I have enclosed it by exclamation marks). This is very badly argued. Differences in exam results are not simply due to being `academically gifted' but to difference in ability, motivation and attitude of teachers and pupils. Pupils will be influenced by parents, employers and society (yes it does exist) to value and respond to educational opportunities in different and not always cnstructive ways. Inherent ability, which is a vague concept, will be masked by many factors. A good teacher will try hard to over come these. I passed the 11+ in the mid-60's, but my contemporaries who did not were devastated with a sense of failure and resentment that stayed with them for years. This is the only argument needed for the abolition of this simplistic anti-educational test. Barney Bruchstein (talk) 17:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality
I dispute the comment about the Eleven Plus being more important than the SATs, especially considering SATs are not designed to measure a pupil's actual ability, but instead their teachers' performance.

That seems to me a judgement; that testing pupil's ability is more important than testing standards in the English teaching profession. Should judgements be in a supposedly impartial encyclopedia?

Ginger Warrior (talk) 12:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Ginger Warrior

Different entrance criteria for the sexes?
It was my understanding that in areas where the Secondary Modern and the Grammar schools were mixed sex that the 11+ results had to be adjusted to allow approximately equal numbers of boys and girls to enter the Grammar school because, in the 10 to 12 age range, girls tend to outperform boys and that, without an adjustment, the Grammar schools would have been predominantly female institutions. Unfortunately I can find no references to this but if something can be found I think it would be important to add something about this in the main page. Colin Mill (talk) 19:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

This may be useful http://www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/cmm/migrated/documents/gender-bias-in-selection.pdf. (Mishmash11 (talk) 21:25, 4 December 2014 (UTC))

Was it really ended in 1976?
I was 11 in 1981, and remember taking 11+ exams in Dorset.. So I think this article may be incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.75.83.25 (talk) 09:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

 * It was ended as a nation-wide system, but vestiges remain today in a few LEAs. 86.185.216.32 (talk) 12:00, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Streaming
At the moment I can't find suitable references, but when I took the 11+ back in 1964 (and the 10+ the year before, which was regarded as a "mock" 11+), the results decided two things.

If your marks fell below a certain level, you qualified for attendance at a secondary modern school (also known as "comprehensives").

If they were high enough to qualify you for attendance at a grammar school, a second threshold came into play - the "stream".

There were two streams: "a" and "b". The topmost performers would be classed as "a", while the remainder (those whose marks fell below the "a" requirement but still lay above the requirement for secondary modern) were classed as "b".

This streaming mapped to the first year of grammar school in which there were two "forms" labeled "IIIa" and "IIIb". If you fell into the "a" stream you were assigned to form IIIa, otherwise to form IIIb.

Thereafter annual performance exams would determine whether the pupil stayed in the same stream for the next year or was promoted/demoted to the other stream. This process continued through years labeled Lower IV, Upper IV, Lower V and Upper V until "O" levels at about age 15.

Streaming ended at that point - the two form years following Upper V (Lower Sixth and Upper Sixth) that led to "AO" and "A" levels did not have streams.

If anyone can find acceptable references I think a brief discussion of streaming would be a useful addition to the article. AncientBrit (talk) 20:19, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I think that the streaming described (IIIa, IIIb, ...) was not used in all grammar schools. The details would have been determined by the head master/mistress. 86.185.216.32 (talk) 11:55, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

 * Indeed, in my grammar school in Warwickshire, one entered into 1a or 1b - it was never explicitly stated that this was random, but it was certainly implied. I had never considered it was as a result of the 11+ marks, but the above has made me wonder. The second year, 2a and b, were allocated on one's form mark at the end of of the first year. The b stream dropped Latin, and were taught by a different set of (presumably paid less) teachers. The ridiculous thing was (despite being in the top 10% of the population) that they felt as much rejected failures as those that failed the 11+, and behaved badly (both academically and socially) as a consequence, and generally left at 16. There was a very limited opportunity for 2 boys to transfer from the b to a stream at the end of the second year, but after that not.

 * Interestingly, I went some way towards organising a 30 year reunion of my year - only the b stream were interested, the a stream interest was minimal. I guess the b stream had a sense of 'us against them' cameradie. 86.187.164.101 (talk) 10:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Regarding Contradiction.
A contradiction tag was placed on the article on 00:35, 22 December 2008 EvilFred (talk | contribs) (11,208 bytes) ("The 'Eleven Plus' ... is now only used in a number of counties and boroughs in England, and, more widely, in Northern Ireland" vs "the system was phased out in Northern Ireland in 2008"). Tag was removed for the following:

That the information was at one time outdated did not make it contradictory as the Eleven plus exam is still in use in some areas for other reasons than originally intended. Instead of placing a contradict tag, perhaps correct the outdated information. Thanks so much on the hard work with this article. Kjnelan (talk) 18:04, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Confusion and some "missing" information
From this page - and in general - I am not sure what the "status" (if that is the right word) of the 11plus is. Some particular questions I have are:
 * Is there "a" syllabus or many different ones ? (References - Links)
 * Is there a body (bodies) that standardise it authorises it? (References - Links) It is categorised as a Standardised test in the UK but I can't see evidence of it being standardised
 * Is it just a label given to any general exam used for admission to some schools at age 11?

All I have found in searching the web is some books and sites that offer to sell materials to help with it but no evidence about. There is something about [|NFER]. But they seem to be acting as someone who is commisioned by schools or some LEAs to produce tests for the Schools. So the tests are owned by the Schools. (Msrasnw (talk) 09:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC))

 * The answer to your third question is 'no'. 86.185.216.32 (talk) 11:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Possible to change to opening paragraph
I would like to change the opening paragraph to:
 * In the United Kingdom, the 11-plus or Eleven plus is a name given to an examination administered to some students in their last year of primary education. The Eleven Plus examination was once used throughout the UK but is now only used in a number of counties and boroughs in England. The exam no longer has any formal status within the UK national education system, and there is no standardised syllabus which it examines nor is it regulated by any national bodies.

Does anyone have any specific problems with this? The reason for this change is that I had though the eleven plus was like other nationally authenticated school exams. But it does not seem to be. Questions I have are:
 * Is there "a" syllabus or many different ones ? (References - Links)
 * Is there a body (bodies) that standardise it authorises it? (References - Links) It is categorised as a Standardised test in the UK but I can't see evidence of it being stnadardised
 * Is it just a label given to any general exam used for admission to some schools at age 11? (Msrasnw (talk) 15:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC))

 * Hi Msrasnw, The change you had made to the lead and which I have reverted back and which you have now posted in slightly revised form here is not correct. The 11+ exam relates to one key aspect of the selection process determining entry into certain schools (Grammar Schools) at secondary level in those Local Authorities and schools in the UK which require it. It has therefore a formal/ legal status given to it by those admission authorities who apply it.
 * You wording in the above relating to syllabus is also not accurate as the pupose of the 11+ is not to examime against a syllabus but to assess certain aspects of the 'aptitude' of students sitting the test. There is one nationally approved syllabus in operation in the UK for key stage 2 pupils:- the national curriculum, but like admission tests in most situations as opposed to qualification tests or exams e.g. GCSE's A-Levels Highers etc etc, which I guess you are thinking of, the purpose of the 11 plus is not to examine capability in the curriculum.
 * NFER is the nationally recognised not for profit organisation used by the vast majority/ nearly all local authorities to research verify and develop the exam papers which are published by GL Assessment. There is no legal requirement for statutory regulation, however the governance of NFER is regulated under relevant legislation, so the last phrase is at best redundant and inclusion would introduce some level of bias as per WP:POV into the statement.
 * The body of the article is in need of some refreshment but is not on my personal hotlist at the moment. Hope this helps as a starting point at least Tmol42 (talk) 16:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Intelligence Citations Bibliography for Articles Related to IQ Testing
I have posted a bibliography of  Intelligence Citations for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human intelligence and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in those issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research and to suggest new sources to me by comments on that page. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 20:03, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Controversy: Middle Class?
Is it true that middle-class families in the U.K. commonly have servants? This is not true in the U.S., where only movie stars and families with great wealth can afford long-term servants. It has been common for the last few decades for wealthy Americans to call themselves "middle class." This is confusing, at best. Donfbreed (talk) 05:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

No, nowadays it would be very unusual for middle-class families in the UK to have servants, although perhaps this was true earlier, e.g. 1950s? 83.244.151.146 (talk) 09:33, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Given it's not a particularly viable source for this, there's a Catherine Tate sketch in which the ideal middle class family have to dramatically call for their 'nanny' or 'help' at one point, I think this was due to them getting jam on the floor or something. The point of this is that where middle class families previously had a housemaid, a cook and various other servants they will now probably use a part-time 'helper' instead. 144.124.3.121 (talk)

I know this is late. Up until the 1920's, then yes,  but after the depression,  so by the 1940's no. --86.149.125.57 (talk) 19:00, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

"Middle class" is a broad category, as is "servant". Certainly the vast majority of the middle class, post war, would have been unlikely to have anyone live in. There were (and still are) various other forms of domestic service, often not employed exclusively by one household. These include[ed] "dailies", cleaners, gardeners, au-pairs and child-minders. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:24, 2 March 2016 (UTC).

Influence of false research
Somwhere in an A-Level Psychology lesson when talking about socially-sensitive research, I distinctly remember my teacher saying that a psychologist called Bert, who's research was during the 1920s I think, heavily influenced the design of the Eleven-Plus. But we were then told that it was discovered that his findings were completely false and that he'd invented them in order to receive credit to his name. 144.124.3.121 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:39, 24 November 2010 (UTC).

 * That's Cyril Burt. Kanguole 10:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

 * Some accuse Burt of committing fraud, but it is far from clear. 86.185.216.32 (talk) 11:40, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I was surprised that Cyril Burt is not mentioned in the article. The article on Burt gives lots of detail, and on the whole seems to conclude that the kindest thing you could say is that ethical standards were lower in his day than they are now. For this article, I think the question is how important Burt was in the development of the 11+. I had thought he was the main driver of it, but it doesn't feature much in the Burt article. Snugglepuss (talk) 20:55, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
 * This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
 * There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
 * It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
 * In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Current situation - counties?
The article refers to areas of the country that still use the 11-plus as "counties", but this is not strictly true. For instance, it is my understanding that it is still used in the cities of Plymouth and Birmingham, but not in the surrounding areas of Devon and the West Midlands. I believe the division is along local council administrative boundaries, i.e. whichever is appropriate of city council, county council or unitary authority for any given location. 46.208.99.201 (talk) 13:59, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

 * There are definitely places in the West Midlands outside of Birmingham that use it. Wolverhampton for one. I don't have personal knowledge of the South West, but a cursory search reveals that there are indeed grammar schools in Devon outside Plymouth. 92.236.160.211 (talk) 18:41, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Italics?
In quite a few, if not all, places, Eleven Plus is italicised in the article. Should it be? If so, shouldn't the title also be? If not, the itals should all be removed. Huw Powell (talk) 12:54, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

 * Yes, remove, there is no reason for them. Plain 'eleven plus', as in the title, is the most common usage. Rothorpe (talk) 00:07, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Image caption
What is an "LEAs"? It is not defined in the article, or at the image page, as far as I can tell. Huw Powell (talk) 12:58, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I found it and linked it. Huw Powell (talk) 13:31, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Eleven plus exam/transfer test
The article begins by discussing the Eleven plus exam and mentions transfer test without saying what the connection between the two is. Was 'transfer test' simply another name for the eleven plus exam? 86.185.216.32 (talk) 11:37, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Eleven Plus-- now has gained a hyphen. Why?
Today I see this un-discussed change

11:44, 31 May 2016 Parsonscat (talk | contribs) m. . (34,302 bytes) (0). . (Parsonscat moved page Talk:Eleven plus exam to Talk:Eleven-Plus exam: The exam is usually referred to as the "Eleven-Plus", not the "Eleven plus".) (undo | thank)

It has rippled through many articles. I suggest a revert till this has been fully discussed. What is the reference that Parsonscat has discovered? We are talking about an exam that was largely finished by 1970, and from 1944 till then it was consistently spelled/spelt as two unhyphenated words. Indeed 'scatttering ' unnecessary hyphens would be the sign of a borderline candidate. So lets see the references and establish the facts, then establish a concensus on whether we wish to ignore them. --ClemRutter (talk) 14:52, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

[ http://www.educationengland.org.uk/documents/newsom/newsom1963.html Newsome Report p198] Example.

 * The form 'Eleven-Plus' was already dominant in the article, and is consistent with usage by the BBC and the Telegraph. It is far from unusual to use hyphens to compound words.  It is probably not a good idea to suggest that other editors would have been borderline candidates - I suspect that humour is intended, but it could be taken as a personal attack.

 * The Eleven-Plus did not finish in 1970. It remains in use today in parts of the United Kingdom.  There were twenty-six years between 1944 and 1970, and there have been forty-six years since 1970.   It's quite possible that typographical conventions have changed in the most recent forty-six years.

 * Wikipedia encourages editors to 'be bold': if we sought consensus in advance for everything, nothing would happen quickly. :-) The Parson's Cat (talk) 21:04, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

POV check
An IP editor tagged this article for a POV check in July 2015, but no section on the issue was ever opened here. I've looked through the article in the course of revising it somewhat for clarity and the only problems with neutrality that I found were in the Northern Ireland section and to a lesser extent the Controversy section (the mention of "vested interests", emphasis on action as being contrary to regulations); I cut the bits I saw as problematic in both, but didn't search for more sources. (I didn't touch the image, which is of course POV and should maybe have a caption saying so.) I've removed the tag. Are my changes ok and should the tag come back? Yngvadottir (talk) 14:15, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

 * I have just had a quick read through, and I am in complete agreement with you. It looks generally OK to me, but I think the image is problematic. Perhaps it really belongs in the 'controversy' section?  The Parson's Cat (talk) 15:19, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

 * I could be conceived to have a conflict of interest, as a former teacher, as a former councillor, as a parent having had to find a true comprehensive school for my children while living in Kent. I am loath to edit- but I do watch this article with dismay. There are 13 references in the list but hald refer to the last paragraph, and the rest bar one only address Northern Ireland. As an exercise would some one like to delete all the unreferenced text? Now looking at the quality- we in Wikipedia don't deal in speculation, or generalities we give facts, percentages etc. POV Adjectives are really discouraged.

 * References are easy to find Education England has given links to all the primary source documents including the Hadlow Report and the Newsome Report] CASE will provide links as will STOP (Stop the eleven plus). Can we be more rigorous here- or should we retitle the article Eleven plus in Northern Ireland and start afresh- or do we just cull out the unreferenced text?ClemRutter (talk) 11:45, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

 * I'm sure it would be good to improve the article. I'd rather not see mass deletions if there are reliable sources out there. The Parson's Cat (talk) 09:48, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 20 August 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. We have consensus that the common name omits "exam". Cúchullain t/ c 12:51, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Eleven-plus exam → Eleven-plus – Common name is eleven-plus, not eleven-plus exam; a normal move isn't working – The Parson's Cat (talk) 11:39, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:23, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

 * The official name is "eleven-plus examinations" or "eleven-plus exams". Leaving out the word "exams" is colloquial. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:23, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks : are there reliable sources that back this up, please?

 * Support: per WP:COMMONNAME, and possibly even WP:OFFICIALNAME as I see no evidence that the official name includes the word 'exam'. Many reliable sources such as the Guardian (here) and the Telegraph (here) refer to it as the 'eleven-plus' or '11-plus' without the qualifying term 'exam' so that argument that this is somehow colloquial does not hold true. Ebonelm (talk) 18:06, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks . I've checked the BBC News style guide too: that seems to favour '11-plus', insisting on the hyphen and the spelling 'plus' out in full. The Parson's Cat (talk) 13:36, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Further to the above, I've just checked the Oxford English Dictionary (here) - that gives the form 'eleven-plus' and says that it is an examination - no need for a further 'exam' to make this clear. The Parson's Cat (talk) 13:46, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Uncomfortable leaning to oppose. Looking back to the parliamentary papers in 1944, it was an 'examination to be taken at 11, commonly known as the 11 plus'. It definitely was an 'examination, not an exam, but I can only find it being referred to as '11' not 'Eleven'. Since then it has be reported in various forms and spellings including the variant with a hyphen. I support change but not this one.--ClemRutter (talk) 18:44, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks : Looking at modern usage, I see eleven-plus and 11-plus in the press. Ebonelm has shown some examples.  Would you agree that losing 'exam' would be an I improvement?
 * I am travelling at the moment so away from my filing cabinet. We need a lot more thinking time on this. Internet sources are divide- the press like to insert a hyphen. Official sites such as NFER never do- if I were marking an Kent test script, I would penalise the child for inserting a hyphen. Changing the title from 11 plus examination to 11 plus changes the focus of the article from one on a flawed test, to one of political philosophy. The eleven plus is defunct, check its legal status as it still illegal for a local authority to use one. We are talking in past tense, the mis-reporting of it along with other examinations sat at eleven (Kent test), the ones in Buckinghamshire, Trafford and Lincolnshire all have different names. Newspapers however continue to use the shorthand Eleven-plus with its newlt acquired hyphen to refer to all of them. Google Martin Frey for definitive information, or Commercial site to see counter examples. Sorry but I will be losing internet contact for the nextfour days. Advice- hold back and plan the site or two sites and then look for a spelling. Thanks for caring. ClemRutter (talk) 12:38, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I took an '11-plus' in Kent in 1988/89. At the time, it was universally referred to as the '11-plus".  It may have had a different 'official' name, but nobody within or without the education system ever referred to it as anything else.  (It's beside the point, but it was not universally considered a 'flawed' test: it did have opponents, but it also had many supporters.  As always, the debate continues, but Wikipedia should be neutral.)
 * Ultimately, I don't think Wikipedia is about forcing the world to be theoretically 'correct' and follow archaic typographical conventions that were correct at one time, but are not the de facto standard now. I did look at the commercial site you gave, and I do not feel that Wikipedia would regard it as a reliable source. I prefer the Oxford English Dictionary, the newspapers and the BBC.
 * I suspect that most Kent Test examiners would take the line that '11-plus' and '11 plus' were both acceptable: it seems grossly unfair to penalise a candidate for hyphenating a phrase the same way as a modern Oxford English Dictionary.
 * This discussion is likely to stay open for at least a week, so please enjoy your time away. I'll look forward to your thoughts when you get back. The Parson's Cat (talk) 14:02, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * @ClemRutter, having had a quick look at the NFER site, they also don't use the term 'exam' and also favour the use '11-plus' (see here). Ebonelm (talk)
 * Indeed the 9th edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English uses a hyphen, but style guide p.1637 section 13.2.3 expresses some doubt. What ever you decide- justify it with a reference.
 * This gets more complex. I looked for over hyphenation which is what we seem to be talking about. I found this site http://www.onlinegrammar.com.au/using-hyphens/ which gives a few examples.
 * It suggests there will be a a historic continuum between- made to measure suit - made-to-measure suit and then madetomeasuresuit.
 * It also suggests that made-to-measure suit is correct, but It was made to measure is the correct way to write it when the noun it support is not present, so it was made-to-measure is definitely wrong.

 * So applying this: You can have Eleven plus or Eleven-plus examination- though I still maintain Eleven should be written in digits. So we get 11 plus or 11-plus examination. How about two article, there is enough material and they are subtly different. (At this point, like generations of children sitting the wretched thing I have lost the will to live.)ClemRutter (talk) 18:24, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Support. There seems no doubt that the common name omits the word exam, even parliament agrees on this! The only question is whether to call it 11-plus or Eleven-plua, asnd I considered relisting to consider this. But in view of the proposal to split the article, this is moot. We could flip a coin if need be, but far better just to move as per the original proposal, and move on to improving the article(s). Andrewa (talk) 16:40, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Current practice- criticisms.
I have looked at Lincolnshire CC site to check on the sentence- (although the test is optional, the education system is completely Tripartite . That appears far from the truth- our own site List of schools in Lincolnshire is unreferenced, but does show no vestiges of tripartite provision. Whether Lincolnshire is the largest area to suffer from the blight of secondary moderns is a mute point- as Kent and Medway are more populous. If decent references can't be found I suggest Crtl-X.

Looking at the placitude about Kent, this is not referenced and experience on the ground suggests this is an exception rather than the norm. If decent references can't be found I suggest Crtl-X.

--ClemRutter (talk) 17:40, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

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Proposed edit to the section on scoring
I'm in my last year of a BSc hons in Maths specialising in statistics and planning to do a research PhD into 11+ exams so came across this page and felt that the section on scoring here could do with some improvements. I've not edited Wikipedia content before so would like to understand the etiquette.

The problem with the existing section is it appears to relate to only Kent or possibly even just one particular school. My proposed edit would point out there are 163 grammar schools, 85% of which are academies so able to set their own admissions criteria and that the 'pass mark' varies enormously. I would add an overview of how standardised scores work to select a percentile of the applicants, point out the limitations of only providing standardised marks and refer to some of the attempts which have been made to increase transparency.

If anyone has any thoughts please could they respond?

thanks

Thehampshirehog (talk) 17:31, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes go ahead- raising it here was the correct thing to do- just remember that the article is aimed at the general reader, and 'complicated sums scare them'. If the general information conflicts with the practices in Kent- then put that information in first- and then say "However, in Kent, existing material¨ lI will put some general tips on your talk page. ClemRutter (talk) 10:49, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the very warm welcome ClemRutter. As I've just written on my user page, Wikipedia is still very strange so I'm working on a draft of what to write in Word which I'll share with colleagues before unleashing on the public! I have a feeling that it might end up about 750 words (and I am being concise!) which is a lot in comparison to the current complete article, about 1600 words. Thehampshirehog (talk) 12:18, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

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Who took it?
Until quite recently I had always thought that everybody took the 11+ (I mean from its inception until the advent in most areas of comprehensives, and presumably excluding those who were always going to be privately educated), but then I spoke to an acquaintance, a distinguished scholar, who went to a secondary modern. He said he was one of those who were deemed too thick to be worth being entered for it. Does anyone know whether it was meant to be taken by every child, and why a school wouldn't enter all its children (was there a fee, for example, or was it difficult to prepare children for it?)?Snugglepuss (talk) 20:12, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There was no fee, and most children took it. Certainly when I took it in 1966 I don't remember anybody in my very undistinguished primary school being excluded because they were 'too thick'. I think parents could opt out, but almost none did because grammar school entry was generally prized. There may have been some variation in practice across LEAs though. --Ef80 (talk) 16:23, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * That is my recollection from earlier in 1950. One variation was that is most places there was just a choice between a secondary modern school and a grammar school but in Sheffield there was a choice between many grammar schools across the city and they had a definite pecking order. My parents had to choose an order. I was lucky. My primary school was good and I got into the school everybody listed first. --Bduke (talk) 00:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Eleven-plus


text:
User:Harris Chan

About myself
Hi everybody! As you can see, my name is Harris Chan; I was born in the middle of year 199x (so I'm turning 17-x this year). I am currently living in somewhere. I found this website in late 2003 or beginning of 2004; I searched on google for the longest word in English, and it showed me this amazing website!

What I aime to do with this site
This site has a lot of information, so I would always go to this site when I do my research. However, my teacher said that he knew this site, but he said that it didn't have much. I guess it was before. Now it's very interesting. Anyway, I planned to learn a lot about things from Wikipedia: Mathematics, English, Science, etc.

title: User:Harris Chan


text:
Talk:The Demolished Man

Created stub
I created this stub so that the novel will show up in the list of science fiction novels. The content is just copied from the Alfred Bester article, sorry if this isn't correct procedure. -A.Miller --12.216.16.110 23:27, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Demolishedman masterworks.gif
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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Einstein/Eisenstein?
... an eyeball floating in a stein; (an eye in a stein -> eye in stein -> Einstein)

Phonetically, that sounds a lot more to me like "Eisenstein" than "Einstein", but I haven't read the book so don't know how the allusion is spelled out; are fans of the book sure he wasn't referring to the filmmaker rather than the physicist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by A. Swearengen (talk • contribs) 13:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

 * What part of "an" do you not understand? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.171 (talk) 21:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

 * In the book Einstein is explicitly stated to be the answer. Leushenko (talk) 23:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Phonetically? Where's the /z/ or [z]?
 * eye in stein  -> Einstein
 * eye s in stein -> Eisenstein
 * No plural on "eye", ∴ no "s", ∴ no [z], ∴ no Ei s enstein, ∴ Einstein. Q.E.D.--Thnidu (talk) 19:14, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

"@kins"
The use of "@" in @kins (Atkins) predates Internet e-mail by at least 18 years... AnonMoos (talk) 06:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

 * But the use of "@" for "at" in quoting prices -- "5 apples @ 50¢" = "5 apples at 50¢ apiece" -- predates "@kins" by at least 52 years.
 * The Underwood Typewriter Company included the symbol on the keyboard of "Underwood No. 5" in 1900, and it was included on subsequent typewriters and their successors' keyboards. (@)
 * --Thnidu (talk) 19:20, 8 December 2011 (UTC) (Dear me, what do they teach them in those schools?)

Dishonest Abe
I got the impression that Lincoln was himself the product of a demolition, and "Dishonest Abe" some vestige of the old criminal personality. Is there any criticism of the book that brings this up? --Starwed (talk) 14:02, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Freudian
This would benefit from an analysis of the Freudian themes that underlie the understanding of psychology at the time. They form the backbone of story including the desire to kill the father and the sublimated, to the sister, desire to boink the mother. These themes are part of the reason that it was a great work when written and kind of cute/silly now 75.191.151.75 (talk) 08:30, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I find it humorous that a hypocrite with a tag in his profile against censorship would delete this for such a minor issue as not liking the word "boink" rather than addressing the issue raised. 75.191.151.75 (talk) 00:53, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll give you a chance here. First, lay off the personal attack. Second, I can't take your discussion seriously when you're using terms like "boink," which leads me to believe this post is not an honest attempt to improve the article. Finally, unless you have some citations about Freud's theories being an influence on book, there's no reason to bring it up here. —  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 14:22, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Okay, so he wanted to FUCK his sister. Happy now?  Do you want to boink YOUR sister?  Or just FUCK your mom?

 * "Hypocrite" in this context is a perfectly adequate term for someone "with a tag in his profile against censorship". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.129 (talk • contribs) 08:47, February 22, 2011

Wyg&
The ampersand is a ligature of et (Latin for and), so I always read that as "Wyget", not "Wygand".

Can someone provide a reliable source for the current version? 91.10.15.208 (talk) 00:44, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Demolished Man