text:
Talk:Sandis Ozoliņš

Birth-place

 * There was a small public scandal recently in Brussels regarding Belgian officials who were thinking that current Latvian citizens have been in fact born in USSR and had been issued valid USSR birth certificates. As it turns out, it is illegal to write USSR as a birth place because that automatically denies the continuum of the present day Latvia which was re-instituted on the grounds that there has never been a legal USSR regime in Latvia -- the way it is recognized by the international society. Although the annexation of Latvia was made to look legal, there were a couple of points breached that made it illegal. Therefore, legally the country named Republic of Latvia had never ceased to exist. See this article: Article in Latvian. This made me to think whether the way Latvian born people in Wikipedia announced as born in USSR is facto-logically correct. As long as there is no practice to specify, i.e., that people who were born in France from May 1940 to December 1944 were born "in Nazi Germany" there also cannot be a practice to do otherwise for the countries occupied by the Soviet Union. The birth-place of anyone born during that time in the current territory Latvia is Latvia (geographical place name). This is 100% official, it is written so everywhere in all personal ID documents and other places where person's birth place is registered. In no place, other than the USSR issued birth certificates (which have been rendered illegal since 1990) does it say otherwise. So please stop interfering with these changes unless you have valid proof that Latvian SSR should be used instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Getadagnis (talk • contribs)

 * Contemporary European law does not over rule actual history. He was a Soviet national team player for a reason.--Львівське (говорити) 15:20, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

 * As Lvivske mentions, law doesn't over rule actual fact that during that time it was called the USSR. And it is standard to label birthplaces on the encyclopedia as it was at the time of their birth. At the time of their birth they were born in what was called at the time the USSR. -DJSasso (talk) 15:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Read history books. At the time of their birth it was generally known as the Republic of Latvia occupied by the USSR. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 15:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I have read history books from the time period. They generally refer to it as the Latvia SSR of the USSR. -DJSasso (talk)
 * You have either read history books on that period or contemporary books. Care to cite what exactly you mean? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 15:46, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Do we really have to go down this road again? I'm sure we've written a novel's worth already on this argument, just use a bot to change 'Estonia' to 'Latvia' and be done with it. I'm getting sick of this POV pushing, it's getting very battleground'y--Львівське (говорити) 15:31, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Words of gold from the editor who has battled for the USSR as the birth place of the Baltic citizens for years. You are free not to take this road.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 15:37, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Battled for years? What?--Львівське (говорити) 15:38, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me freshen up your memory. Ever since this edit in 2009 you have changed Leo Komarov's birth country to the USSR for five times. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 15:46, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * During that time I assumed good faith ignorance of history. Now it's just blatant POV pushing.--Львівське (говорити) 15:51, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. Nothing in your crusade has changed. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 15:53, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Lvivske your obsession with proving USSR legitimacy is getting absurd. It is not. And also there is no practice in official documents for the past 22 years to say that people who were born in Latvia under Soviet Occupation were born in Latvian SSR. Not to mention that such action would contradict the law. It also doesn't say Latvian SSR on Sandis Ozoliņš NHL profile. This is completely your POV to think that the fact that this country was somehow related to USSR is more important than its geographical name. Naming it "Latvian SSR" is only a mistake that has appeared on Wikipedia because of amateur actions. Please stop changing the name back. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 09:31, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The reason I am concerned about this is because the way Wikipedia shows the birth-place is inspiring people to write "Latvian SSR" as their birthplace in other documents, too. I also used the same practice until learning that the name is considered unofficial and that geographical place name "Latvia" is the only official way to refer to the country at the time. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 09:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Please understand the difference. The name of the state back then was de facto "Latvian SSR", however this name has never been recognized by UN and most of the international society and hence is officially "unofficial", this is why de jure it was still Republic of Latvia (Citation: "The Declaration stated that, although Latvia had de facto lost its independence in 1940, when it was annexed by the Soviet Union, the country had de jure remained a sovereign country as the annexation had been unconstitutional and against the will of the people of Latvia. Therefore it resolved that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the Soviet occupation of Latvia in 1940 were illegal, and annulled the declaration on the accession of Latvia to the Soviet Union of 21 July 1940" On the Restoration of Independence of the Republic of Latvia). So de jure at the time the name of the state was still "Republic of Latvia" as is the name of the state now. However, the name of the country in both cases is "Latvia" and the nation was "Latvians". "Republic of" and "SSR" are the only things that have changed and that are under dispute. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 20:54, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It is also important to point out that the two major English speaking countries (as Lvivske has argued elsewhere that contents of the English Wikipedia should be "relative" to the English speaking-world), both the US and the UK, were among those who never recognized the annexation of Latvia into USSR neither de facto nor de jure. In the US it is documented in the Welles Declaration which "initiated a refusal to recognize the legitimacy of Soviet control over these three states." Also see Baltic–Soviet relations: "A majority of Western world governments did not recognize the Soviet annexations of the Baltic states de jure, though some countries did recognize them de facto." This means that all the official documents in those countries even at the time of occupation had to refer to the country as "Republic of Latvia" or "Latvia". 159.148.87.183 (talk) 20:38, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Understand this at once. This is how it looks on paper. Sandis Ozoliņš was legally born in free Latvia (because the Soviet Union occupation of Latvia has never been legal and recognized, as mentioned above). Unknown time after his birth he was given an illegal Soviet Union citizenship. Between the time of his birth and before the Soviet citizenship he is a legal citizen of the Republic of Latvia, then this right is illegally taken away from him. This is the legal view on this. Everything else is POV. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 11:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
 * If you disagree with the point above, then you disagree with the legitimacy and continuity of the Republic of Latvia (independence declaration of which states that during the Soviet period "the country had de jure remained a sovereign country as the annexation had been unconstitutional and against the will of the people of Latvia." On the Restoration of Independence of the Republic of Latvia) and you should take those concerns elsewhere. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 11:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
 * And I repeat, this not some legal conspiracy theory, this is the mainstream view on this and the reason why everybody in Latvia (and I assume other two Baltic states as well) since 1990 have Latvia set as their birth-place in all newly issued birth certificates by both Republic of Latvia and European Union. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 11:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

 * We have established that Template:infobox person requires city,administrative unit,  sovereign state at the time of birth. We have established that the Baltic states retained their sovereignty despite being illegally incorporated into the USSR, see the sources referenced in Sovereignty. We have established that the USSR never acquired sovereignty over the Baltic states, see the sources reference in State continuity of the Baltic states. So I think continuing to insist on placing the USSR as place of birth for any of the Baltic states is becoming somewhat tendentious. --Nug (talk) 20:12, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * We have also established that Latvia in of itself was not a sovereign state at the time of Ozo's birth. The USSR, however, was a sovereign state – of which he was a citizen and national team player for.--Львівське (говорити) 20:31, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Where have you established that? What part of Sovereignty do you not understand? --Nug (talk) 20:38, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I like how we are basing arguments on wikitext you literally just added. No POV pushing there at all... Resolute 21:05, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I attempt to base my arguments on reliable sources, highly reliable scholarly ones where possible. I've not seen anything remotely similar from your side. The view that the USSR held sovereignty over the Baltic states is a minority POV, held by official Russia, therefore presenting place of birth as the USSR for the Baltic states as a fact is in fact pushing minority POV. --Nug (talk) 21:14, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Wanna guess what the International Ice Hockey Federation's media guide is going to say his birthplace is? Oh, and for the record, we most certainly have not established that infobox person requires city, administrative unit, sovereign state.  Viewing the discussion in the most favourable to your side possible, it was no consensus. Resolute 21:20, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * If you can't change the Infobox, might as well redefine sovereignty to meet your POV, eh? --Львівське (говорити) 21:24, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm just reflecting what the mainstrean view is in reliable sources, and scholarly sources are more reliable than the views of sports bodies in the field of state sovereignty. It seems rather tendentious to claim the IIHF got it right but the NHL got it wrong in the absence of any other evidence. The bottom line is that claiming that the USSR had sovereignty over the Baltic states is basically parroting the nationalist POV of the Russian government, since they are the only ones continuing to make this claim. Also Template:infobox person clearly states city,administrative unit,  sovereign state, so I'm not sure how Resolute can claim it has not been established. --Nug (talk) 22:15, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * If Sovereignty says that all three countries were in fact sovereign states illegally annexed by USSR and the Template:infobox person guideline states that the name of the "sovereign state" should be used then I don't see where's the problem? The bottom line is that Sandis Ozoliņš (same as other Baltic athletes at the time) was born in a sovereign state Latvia that at the time was illegally occupied by USSR. The consequences of that is that he was given an illegal USSR citizenship that was annulled as soon as the legal authorities were given back the power. I am not a lawyer and less alone a court so I don't know how much reason there is to say that he was born in either "Republic of Latvia" (de jure) or "Latvian SSR" (de facto by some countries and general knowledge of world population) but seems certain to me is that the geographical name "Latvia" is correct in both cases. It is also the common practice in Latvian and European Union institutions to refer to the birth-place of all persons at the time this way. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 22:18, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does say use sovereign state. You know what the USSR was? A sovereign state. It is standard in encyclopaedic articles to list the birthplace at the time of their birth and not the current name. At the time of his birth he was born in USSR territory. Whether illegally occupied or not is irrelevant. -DJSasso (talk) 12:47, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The USSR was a sovereign state, but not in the foreign countries it occupied for a period, like Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria and so on. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 12:50, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
 * And the template that keeps being pointed to as proof that it should be Latvia does not make that distinction. -DJSasso (talk) 13:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not get your point, it says 'sovereign state' and the Soviet Union had no sovereignty over the territory in question. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 13:17, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
 * First off that is disputed by many countries as you are well aware from the endless discussions you guys have forced on this. Secondly the comments on that template are a MOS issue showing how to list out the birth place only and not a comment on the sovereignty of any country. Thirdly this isn't even the template being used on the article. My point is that the argument that this is how the template says to do it is not a good one due to many reasons. -DJSasso (talk) 13:23, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The lack of sovereignty is disputed only by the government of Russia. No other modern disputers have been reported in the discussions. I don't see the difference between a MOS issue and the question of sovereignty. The MOS is a guideline on how to choose the birth country. The hockey player template does not specify that, but we need a guideline from somewhere. If you have a better one, go ahead and present it.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 13:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Citation: "The Declaration On the Restoration of Independence of the Republic of Latvia stated that, although Latvia had de facto lost its independence in 1940, when it was annexed by the Soviet Union, the country had de jure remained a sovereign country as the annexation had been unconstitutional and against the will of the people of Latvia." Understand this at once. This is how it looks on paper. Sandis Ozoliņš was legally born in free Latvia (because the Soviet Union occupation of Latvia has never been legal and recognized, as mentioned above). Unknown time after his birth he was given an illegal Soviet Union citizenship. Between the time of his birth and before the Soviet citizenship he is a legal citizen of the Republic of Latvia, then this right is illegally taken away from him. This is the legal view on this. Everything else is POV. It is your POV that the fact that USSR was a more "significant country" at the time is more important than the actual truth, that the occupation was illegal and legally Latvia was not incorporated in USSR. This is a legal fact and a lot of things in the modern world depend on this. Including the legitimacy of the current Republic of Latvia. 80.232.217.165 (talk) 17:38, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

We're glad you agree that Latvia was a part of the Soviet Union, from 1940 to 1991. GoodDay (talk) 23:47, 27 February 2013 (UTC) Please read and address all he says. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 07:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Is this supposed to be an encyclopedia or playground for kids? How can someone keep changing the article ignoring all evidence and common practice without even trying to support his views with any hard evidence? 159.148.87.183 (talk) 11:50, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Latvia was not a legal part of the Soviet Union. Latvia from 1940-1991 was a sovereign country where Soviet Union practiced illegal activities interfering with the legal rights of the Republic of Latvia and Latvian people. The legal discussion about this ended on this conclusion more than 20 years ago. Please, get your facts updated. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 12:16, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

As has been discussed in the many discussions this has been in over the last month. It isn't relevant to his birthplace if the occupation was legal or not. It was a fact of life. He was born in Soviet territory which is what the birthplace is trying to show. The reasons it was under Soviet control are simply not relevant to this page and listing of a birthplace. -DJSasso (talk) 12:34, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. Check your facts before you write something like that. The territory was of a sovereign country Republic of Latvia. Latvia has never been Soviet territory. When Soviet Union invaded Latvia between June 17-June 20 1940 it violently changed the existing government of Latvia to a new one that then voted for the incorporation of Latvia into the USSR. This act alone makes the integration of Latvia into USSR non-existent. At the time Latvia was called Republic of Latvia and the territory was that of the Republic of Latvia. Soviet Union was a foreign opressor that was present in the territory backed by a military force and violence. There are no international laws that I am aware of that would call an illegitimate foreign opressor any rights for the title "sovereign country". This is completely and utterly wrong. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 12:48, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * They controlled the territory either way. Just because something was illegal didn't mean it didn't happen, it just means it happened illegally. People referred to it as part of the USSR. Mail sent there was addressed as part of the USSR. Athletes competed for the USSR etc etc. Illegal or not they were part of the USSR during that time. -DJSasso (talk) 12:51, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Your argument is that of a POV. Because people across the Atlantic like to keep things simple and call all the Soviets "Soviets" doesn't change the legal truth. Because there are people who knew at the time that Latvia was not part of the USSR and there were those who thought it was. It just happens so that the governments of North America were also among those who understand that it wasn't. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 13:02, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Besides "controlling a territory" has nothing to do with the rights for the title of a country. It's just absurdly incorrect POV. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 13:04, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with rights for a title of a country. We use the common name for things on Wikipedia not the official title. The official title is explained in the article itself. So when people go to the actual Latvia page etc they can read about the situation there. But on unrelated pages like this one we use the commonly accepted phrasing. Secondly please stop reverting. There have been discussion across the wiki on this subject already and yes consensus matters, its how wikipedia works. -DJSasso (talk) 13:20, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it possible to see that discussion? Common name that is now used is obviously "Latvia". Without "Republic of" and "SSR". 159.148.87.183 (talk) 13:28, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The key is that it is based on the time of their birth. Obviously someone born now would be just Latvia. As for those discussions there are a number. Wikipedia_talk:HOCKEY, Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Baltic_states-related_articles, Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive170, Template_talk:Infobox_person would be the main ones. But there have been a few spread over various player articles lately as well. -DJSasso (talk) 13:35, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The thing is that I was born in 1984 in Latvia as well. I have also lived in London, UK where I was registered as born in Latvia. This is because Latvian SSR was just "playing" a country on the political stage, it was not a real country. "Latvian SSR" was part of the "Soviet Union" as a country founded by the Soviets. But this country didn't have any territory, or people, or any legitimate right to exist. The territory and people since 1918 uninterruptedly have belonged to the Republic of Latvia which has never been part of the Soviet Union. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 13:53, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Djsasso is correct. We don't give a bleep as to why Latvia was a part of the USSR, when Ozolinch was born. We're only concerned with showing that it was a part of the USSR at that time. GoodDay (talk) 14:06, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Nobody cares what you care about or don't. "Latvian SSR" was a not a real country. It was in no way a sovereign state as required by info-box guidelines. And your cannot be born in a fictional state. Your birth place is a territory that has a legal owner. That territory is called Latvia and that legal owner at the time was called Republic of Latvia. I repeat - Sandis Ozoliņš was born in a sovereign country Republic of Latvia. All evidence has been posted here many times. After that he was illegaly given Soviet Union citizenship and he was illegally representing Soviet Union as a hockey player. Do you read what I write at all? 159.148.87.183 (talk) 15:31, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Can we please get someone with competence to participate in political matters as this one in this discussion? Because the current advocates of the legitimacy of naming it "Latvian SSR" are not even trying to support their point with reason. This is seriously getting painfully absurd. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2013 (UTC) How is "We don't give a bleep" an argument? 159.148.87.183 (talk) 15:53, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem is most people have stopped debating because extreme nationalist POV pushers such as yourself have worn out most of the other people involved in the debate. -DJSasso (talk) 16:25, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * How constructive of you. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 16:27, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * More constructive than the one you just made. At least I told him why many people weren't making better arguments at this point. -DJSasso (talk) 16:30, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No less constructive than all the edit warring going on. I have no problem personally with dropping SSR and just linking to "Latvia, Soviet Union" or "Soviet Union (Latvia)", but I'll admit that after this little battle has moved between at least four forums, I am doubting consensus for anything is likely to be achieved. Resolute 16:32, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's best for the Wikipedia you faced the lack of even a remote prospect for a consensus. Just face it - one of the sides is convinced the other is a bunch of nationalist liars, trolls, and POV pushers, and the other side thinks their opponents are historically illiterate. Both sides feel their opponents completely fail to address their arguments. Editors would have saved a month of their lives by just agreeing to disagree at no consensus and the appropriate return of articles to their last stable versions. We can still do that and save more time, because the situation is not about to change. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 16:43, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree personally. I think the dispute is mostly confined to this article and Komarov. Would you like to propose that we all agree to disagree and set the articles back to pre-dispute versions, or should I?   Yet another sub-section at the WT:HOCKEY thread should capture most of the principles of this dispute. Resolute 16:47, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I just suggested WP:NOCONSENSUS at the Baltic MOS talk page. If you think the WP:HOCKEY is the correct place to suggest that again, please go ahead, I'll be with you. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 17:20, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It will be tragic, that our readers are deprived of accuracy, because Baltic nationalists want to re-write their past :( GoodDay (talk) 17:24, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It's obvious that Lithuania, Latvia & Estonia were a part of the Soviet Union from 1940 to 1991. GoodDay (talk) 17:00, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * How can you reach a consensus here if people are not participating in the discussion? And when they do they are ignoring what the discussion has been about. This whole "Latvian SSR, Soviet Union" thing appeared in Wikipedia rather recently, I think 3 to years ago and has stuck here contrary to the practice in real life. It is clear that it was introduced on Wikipedia by someone who wanted to be smart and informative yet didn't have a clue about history and the story behind it all. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 17:14, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

We don't give a bleep as to why Latvia was a part of the USSR. We're only concerned with showing that it was a part of the USSR, at the time of Ozolinch's birth. Why are you trying to deny readers this info? GoodDay (talk) 17:17, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for asking a question. My goal is in no way to deny readers any information. You can put all the information about Soviet Union in the info-box how you like. Just not as a birth place. Because it simply isn't so. In legal terms Latvian SSR never existed (and Latvia was never part of Soviet Union). And whether you like it or not, but things like this in this world are defined in legal terms because there is no other way how to avoid confusion. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 17:28, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't give a bleep about why or how it was a part of the USSR. It was a part of the USSR at the time of Ozolnich's birth & that's what should be shown in the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 17:33, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, Latvia should be shown under the annexation occupation of the USSR. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 17:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't be shown as such, as that would be inaccurate for our readers. Latvia was 1 of 15 Soviet republics from 1940 to 1991. A fact that can't be changed by revionist sources. GoodDay (talk) 17:47, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No one is trying to change that and there is nothin inaccurate in the state continuity of the Baltic states and the occupation of the Baltic states.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 17:54, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but the Baltic states did not maintain there independance from 1940 to 1991. For our readers sake, we shouldn't be promoting revionist history. GoodDay (talk) 17:56, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No one is claiming they did. Just that they continued as occupied and illegally annexed states.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 17:58, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't give a 'bleep' about how or why they were a part of the USSR. We're only concerned with that they were a part of the USSR. GoodDay (talk) 17:59, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Your point of view is based on the fact that what general public think about the history of Latvia is more important than the legal truth. I definitely agree that the USSR played an important role in Ozoliņš as an athlete's life and that this should be documented as thoroughly as possible. However, when you're saying that we have to be "accurate for our readers", please understand that this means accuracy also in other matters as well. You are being inaccurate when saying that Latvia was one of 15 Soviet republics. I am too tired to repeat myself why. But this is a very important legal fact that has consequences. Such as the legitimacy of the current Republic of Latvia. Please understand this, too. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 18:02, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but the Baltic states were 3 of 15 Soviet republic, from 1940 to 1991. I won't agree to revising historical facts & depriving our readers. GoodDay (talk) 18:05, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * We know the status of the Baltic states better than you do. They also continued as occupied and illegally annexed states, which you will not get to erase.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 18:08, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

 * Latvia and Latvian SSR is not the same thing. Just as much as America and the United States of America is not the same thing. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 18:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry gentlemen, but I'm not going to agree to depriving our readers of historical facts. Revionism is unacceptable. GoodDay (talk) 18:13, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, you seem rather comfortable in 'depriving our readers' of the state continuity of the countries under Soviet annexation occupation.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 18:18, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm flattered by the attention ;) but you're not even scratching the surface with me. GoodDay (talk) 18:23, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * How I see the problem is that it has stuck within the limits of the info-box. The most correct way both based on legal and general truth would be to specify both facts. That on one hand the legal truth is that he was born in Latvia (which is currently his official birth place, officially) and on other hand he was born in Latvian SSR, USSR. It is unacceptable to say that he was born in USSR, because this is legally untrue and causes confusion in real life for people who see this. It is also uninformative to not mention USSR because it is an important historical aspect. It is also unacceptable to write anything in between, like "Latvia, USSR" because while "Latvian SSR" was part of the USSR, Latvia legally was not. Since I am a newbie to Wikipedia, I am not aware of the common practice in cases like this but my solution would be add another line in the info-box. One for the legal truth, the other for the historical truth. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 18:34, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

You'll have to convince others with your argument. I'm not changing my position on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I don't know where and how, so I will have to leave it for this discussion. 159.148.87.183 (talk) 18:43, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we can see you are having a hard time understanding the arguments, let alone tackling them.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 18:46, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, I'm flattered by the attention. Meanwhile, I only hope the 2 of you (like me) will respect Resolute's advice. GoodDay (talk) 18:51, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I can see you are not just cherry picking historical facts but also editors' pieces of advice as he also suggests to drop the stick and settle at no consensus.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 18:58, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I won't be taking part in edit-wars. Again, so far, you haven't convinced me of your position. GoodDay (talk) 19:00, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Why would we have to convince you on what is legally true and commonly acknowledged? I am representing here the view on this matter of the Republic of Latvia, the EU, the US, the UN and other international bodies. Congrats on the false sense of power but I suggest that you stop flattering yourself with comments like the previous one and look first for information not just assume that you're right. This applies as a general advise on life. Thank you for the wasted time on this! 159.148.87.183 (talk) 19:10, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

 * Surely you won't be taking part in edit wars after having edit warred every Baltic hockey player bio your way... unless they get returned to their last stable versions, perhaps? BTW, you have not convinced a single editor here.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 19:14, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Neither of you have convinced me with your arguments. GoodDay (talk) 19:19, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Related Rfc's silent consensus
Recommend the article be unproteced & Lithuania restored as Ozolinch's birth country. GoodDay (talk) 00:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There was no silent consensus for that. That opinion was clearly rejected at the RfC. What is being discussed is a compromise. -DJSasso (talk) 11:55, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Right now, for the sake of peace, agreement at something seems even more important than what is agreed upon. Hence, I suggest DJSasso to follow GoodDay's balanced decision and behaviour and not to whip up strife again.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 12:54, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, not whipping up strife. Suggesting we agree on the compromise. What you are doing is targeting a specific editor which is of course whipping up strife. -DJSasso (talk) 13:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Untitled

 * "Ozolinsh" should be regarded as a nickname (assumed name) because in the Latvian documentation and passports the very popular Latvian surname is always spelt as Ozoliņš, or, if diacritics are unavailable, simplified to "Ozolins", never as "Ozolinsh".
 * Wikipedia naming convention is that articles are named after the most common English spelling, even if that spelling is different from the person's native language. And in this case, English-language newspapers/websites almost always use Ozolinsh, not Ozolins. Andris 13:33, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * It is sad that one may want, or be forced, to follow what is merely a common error ("Ozolinsh"). Why do you worship anglicisation and ignore Latvian grammar? Weren't decades of russification of Latvia already enough? The main page should be Sandis Ozoli&, and you could redirect to it from OzolinSH.
 * Latvian grammar should be left to the Latvian Wikipedia.--Львівське (talk) 07:44, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The back of his jersey says Ozolinsh. Stop crying about something so unbelivably trivial. Lionelxhutz 23:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * And his passport and birth certificate say Ozoliņš. Once his hockey career is over, his jersey won't say anything. His passport and birth certificate will still be the same. Lionelxhutz, you're a jerk.  Đɨℓʊŋα χχν 18:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

 * His passport and birth certificate mean nothing to wikipedia, only common use in ENGLISH. By your logic, we should move Alexei Zhitnik to Oleksiy Zhytnyk, and Ovechkin to Aleksandr Ovechkin, and Grabovski would become Mikhail Hraboŭski. --Львівське (talk) 19:22, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

 * The reason "Ozolinsh" became the preferred spelling in English is because at the time he started establishing himself as a hockey player, it was in the Soviet Union, where his name was spelled in Cyrillics. "Ozolinsh" was the transliteration of the name into English from Russian. Over time, it has become common that former Soviet republics are asserting the spellings from their own languages. I believe, on his Dinamo Riga club where he now plays, the name is spelled without the "H".Djob (talk) 20:14, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The KHL club, in which Ozoliņš currently plays, is based in his native Latvia, thus surname on his back is spelled as it is spelled in his passport - Ozoliņš. If it was any other KHL club, it would be spelled "Ozolins". Gragox (talk) 20:53, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think any KHL team includes diacritics on the surnames on the backs. I know that Lev Poprad, even though it is in Slovakia, spells the Slovak and Czech names without diacritics.109.107.200.146 (talk) 10:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Latvian National Team
A couple of weeks ago he became the General Manager of Latvian NT. Someone should probably add this to the article. I can't find an Engish source though. Mrkarlis (talk) 19:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Sandis Ozoliņš


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Talk:Kārlis Skrastiņš

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title: Talk:Kārlis Skrastiņš


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Talk:Sergei Zholtok

Transliteration of name
We're not going to acknowledge that he was known as Sergei Zholtok throughout his entire NHL career? 162.208.171.22 (talk) 17:13, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 10 September 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. per the discussion below, and per the sources provided for common name. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:51, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Sergejs Žoltoks → Sergei Zholtok – WP:COMMONNAME, was never referred to as Žoltoks during his career 162 etc. (talk) 15:31, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:10, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

 * queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:12, 10 September 2021 (UTC)'
 * This is an 11 year old move, and the title has remained ever since then. This should be carried forward through a procedural RM. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  17:32, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment naturalizing a bio is never a technical request. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:56, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment As seven days have now passed, and there are no objections or evidence presented suppporting the current title, this can be considered uncontroversial. 162 etc. (talk) 19:52, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Support. I'm happy to take nom's word for it that the new name is the common name in English, and if so the move is justified. Andrewa (talk) 23:14, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not just my word, but CBC, NHL, ESPN... 162 etc. (talk) 18:43, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Previous move
This would reverse and overwrite 22:38, 10 July 2010 SANCEZZZ talk contribs block 30 bytes +30  moved Sergei Zholtok to Sergejs Žoltoks over redirect: He was a latvian player

which has no valid rationale in the edit summary. Andrewa (talk) 23:08, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

title: Talk:Sergei Zholtok


text:
Talk:Darius Kasparaitis

Untitled
Darius Kasparaitis' wife is NOT named Ingela, and is not Swedish. She is Russian (by birth) and is named Irina (see ). ArchieAndrews 13:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Darius was born in Lithuania, Elektrenai it is 30 miles away from capital Vilnius and Darius is a typical Lithuanian name. Yes he plays for Russian federation, but it is because he couldn’t go anywhere with Lithuanian team for the simple reason- it didn’t exist. Only now our young Lithuanian team shows some class in Europe. Kasma

If he's Lithuanian, he can't be Russian --- no matter who he plays for. The opening statement is therefor gibberish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jshark00 (talk • contribs) 04:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

If he's Lithuanian and American both, he also Russian, because of sports citizenship for many years.93.185.19.6 (talk) 19:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)Jar Timin93.185.19.6 (talk) 19:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Darius Kasparaitis


text: Talk:Mariusz Czerkawski

title: Talk:Mariusz Czerkawski


text: Talk:Krzysztof Oliwa

title: Talk:Krzysztof Oliwa


text:
Talk:Dmitri Afanasenkov

Which spelling is it?

 * Dimitri
 * Dmitri
 * Dmitry

I guess the last one is preferable since it has the most sources and is the current name of the article (apparently always has been). --4.239.168.84 12:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dmitri Afanasenkov


text:
Talk:Maxim Afinogenov

Untitled
I keep getting messages that I am vandalizing this page. In fact, the last one said if I continue to do this I will be banned. What is this about? I've never been to this page until today after I got this warning. Could someone please explain this to me 70.50.78.217 15:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

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British C-class submarine

The British C-class submarines were the last class of petrol engined submarines of the Royal Navy and marked the end of the development of the Holland-class submarine in the Royal Navy. Thirty-eight were constructed between 1905 and 1910 and they served through World War I.

With limited endurance and only a ten per cent reserve of buoyancy over their surface displacement, they were poor surface vessels, but their spindle shaped hull made for good underwater performance compared to their contemporaries.

Service history
Three (C36, C37 and C38) had been sent to Hong Kong in 1911 and during the war the remainder were mainly used for coastal defence, based at the east coast ports of Leith, Harwich, Hartlepool, Grimsby and Dover, some operating with Q-ships which were decoying U-boats. The technique was for a trawler to tow the submarine and communicate with it by telephone. When a U-boat surfaced to attack the trawler with its deck gun, the British submarine would slip its tow and attempt to torpedo the U-boat.

HMS C3, the first boat commissioned, was employed during the Zeebrugge raid on 23 April 1918. Packed with explosives it was blown up in an attempt to destroy a viaduct, for which her commander Lieutenant Richard Sandford was awarded the Victoria Cross.

Four operated in the Baltic Sea, based at Tallinn as part of the blockade of Germany trying to prevent the import of iron ore from Sweden. They were sent there in September 1915 via a tortuous route — towed around the North Cape to Arkhangelsk and taken by barge to Kronstadt. Three of these boats were destroyed (along with the British E-class submarines HMS E1, HMS E8, HMS E9, HMS E19) outside Helsinki in 1918 to prevent capture by German troops of the Baltic Sea Division who had landed nearby.

Ten of the submarines were lost during the war, including HMS C16 which was mistakenly rammed by HMS Melampus (1914). The surviving boats were disposed of at the end of the war with the exception of HMS C4, which was retained for trials until being scrapped in 1922.

The Imperial Japanese Navy also used their own version of the C class, which they had bought from Vickers, this was the Ha-1-class submarine, two almost-identical designs came from Ha-1, these were the Ha-3-class submarine and Ha-7-class submarinees.

C-class boats
38 C-class boats were built in total for the RN:

 * HMS C1
 * HMS C2
 * HMS C3
 * HMS C4
 * HMS C5
 * HMS C6
 * HMS C7
 * HMS C8
 * HMS C9
 * HMS C10
 * HMS C11
 * HMS C12
 * HMS C13
 * HMS C14
 * HMS C15
 * HMS C16
 * HMS C17
 * HMS C18
 * HMS C19
 * HMS C20
 * HMS C21
 * HMS C22
 * HMS C23
 * HMS C24
 * HMS C25
 * HMS C26
 * HMS C27
 * HMS C28
 * HMS C29
 * HMS C30
 * HMS C31
 * HMS C32
 * HMS C33
 * HMS C34
 * HMS C35
 * HMS C36
 * HMS C37
 * HMS C38

title: British C-class submarine


text:
Talk:Nik Antropov

Nik or Nikolai
I saw that someone anonymously created a "Nikolai Antropov" article ... and arbitrarily copied and pasted the contents of the "Nik Antropov" article, and change that into a redirect into the "Nikolai" article without any regard of the "Move" tab on top! In fairness, I also made that same mistake when I was a newby ... but I have now reverted those changes back to before all that happened! All that said, it had me contemplating the following question: Are you all in favour of keeping the article as Nik Antropov ... or having it changed to Nikolai Antropov? Personally, I'm in favour of keeping it as is! The media has referred to him by his shortened name over the years rather than by "Nikolai"! Your thoughts, please. Amchow78 20:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There are two main sources for player info: the NHL (Nik) and the NHLPA (Nikolai). Most media sources follow the NHL's example and use Nik. Personally I would say that the NHLPA as his union would be truer to his wishes, but otherwise Naming conventions (common names) should provide guidance. Either way, the "losing" name should redirect to the actual article. ccwaters 20:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Personal

 * Do you have a source?-Wafulz (talk) 18:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * For what?18abruce (talk) 09:34, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Nik Antropov


text: Talk:Denis Arkhipov

title: Talk:Denis Arkhipov


text:
Talk:Vsevolod Bobrov

Russian Navy logistics ship Vsevolod Bobrov
There is also a Russian Navy logistics ship named the Vsevolod Bobrov.

This is notable now as it is the yet another Russian Navy ship that has (strangely) "caught fire" (according to Government of Russia sources), or been involved in a military action by the Ukrainian Navy during the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine (according to Ukrainian sources). Here are articles in the European media, supporting the differing claims from both sides: Russian logistics ship Vsevolod Bobrov catches fire at sea, Euroweekly News; and Moscow warns Finland over NATO bid as Ukraine says Russian ship damaged, Reuters. N2e (talk) 17:49, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Vsevolod Bobrov


text: Talk:Sergei Brylin

title: Talk:Sergei Brylin


text:
Talk:Pavel Bure

lawsuit vs arbat prestige
anyone know its status? Dsol 21:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

recent edit
A recent edit made by 70.68.82.16 on 1 Feb. 2006 may present incorrect information. Two previous edits (2 hours earlier) by this IP address were examples of clear vandalism and those changes have been reverted. However, I know nothing about this subject and therefore have to rely on anyone watching this page to determine whether or not the changes made represent false data. Rkitko 12:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

 * You where right, someone is such a Bure fan he had to increase his stats :P. Good call for not knowing about the subject. Marcus1060 04:38, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Pathetic
This article is pathetic. There is so much not being said about Bure. He is (sad to say as a Canucks fan) one of the greatest Russian hockey players ever. That warrents considerable attention, something this article doesn't get. I mean, Rory Fitzpatrick has about the same amount of info on his page. I guess I am left to solve this. Kaiser matias 03:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Not to sound like I am attacking but why not edit it and make it that way then? That is after all what this site is about. Djsasso 22:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Its not attacking at all, its the truth. I am very much planning on doing so, just life is getting in my way at the moment so I don't have enough time to do what I have planned. In due course though, it will be done. Unless of course you want to start yourself? Kaiser matias 22:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: 21st Century Association
With regard to Mr. Bure's associations within the Russian Political world, anyone wishing to investigate this would do well to watch a CBC television documentary (on the series The Fifth Estate) regarding Mr. Bure's associations. I do not know if information from documentary programmes is considered to be 'factual evidence'. I assume it depends on the nature of the programme (IE: whether the programme is reputable or not). The episode in question also discusses the mooted racketeering of young Russian draftees and associated mysterious payments made to murky figures. The programme also includes discussion of Bure's association with Enzor Kiklashvili (sp?) who heads the organization known as the 21st Century Association, and includes interviews about this subject with Bure himself. I have found no information on Mr. Kiklashvili on Wikipedia as yet. I have not added any of the particulars/details surrounding this programme to the site as it is up to others to determine whether this meets the factual/citation criteria wikipedia requires. If the user below is interested, I am sure this information is available via the cbc archives or website (link below). I hope this helps. Posthocergopropterhoc 16:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/1999/10/06/hockeymob991006.html

Section removed
I have removed the section of the article alleging mafia ties. The source is a questionable web site that has no serious journalistic reputation, no evidence of serious research, and no evidence of any editorial or fact-checking process. See WP:BLP for more information on removing potentially libelous material that is poorly sourced. --Mus Musculus 22:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey man i really feel there should be at least some mention of russian mafia ties here.

First off Russian mafia info is lacking, basically because of the code of silence being upheld, alot of what i9s known about sicilian mafiosi is because of the broken code of omerta and the prevalent ratting of the early nineties, the Russians have not had this problem, so varyifying alot of the info is going to be hard.

I am not russian, i will not pretend, And i know of the moratorium on independent research, but let me tell you, this man's familty is deeply entrenched in russian crime as well as lore, his father was a master craftsmen for many high profile oficials during the cold war period.

you can look on ebay and find signature bure watches made by his father inscripted with old Ussr insignias as well as KGB symbols. you can also, pull your head out of the clouds and do a little research.

His Legal Godfather is the supposed (anything related to the russian mafia is gonna be supposed unless you bring a rat to interpol and have him debrief the feds on everything that has goine down in the past twenty years) head of the racket upon Nhl russians, his name escapes me at the moment.

If you look into you'll find that bure is heavily involved with Russian Mafiosi as well as some other high profile russians, and there is a public rift that open between he and ALex Mogilny after Mogilny tried to gain European Union protection against the racketering that affects many up and coming russians in the NHL and domestic leagues.

just keep in mind your not gonna be able to verify something such as crime until a rat or pentito comes forward and delineates some people, keep in mind what we knew about italian mafiosi was the result of years of speculation, and eventual Uncanny risk on interpol and the US FBI to infiltrate and uncover siad mafia operations, such has not been done to the russian syndicate, and if it has it has not been made public domain, prolly cause the operatives are still embedded, but i mean cmon, how many high level hits have you heard about the russians perfroming, the definetly exist and some form of KGB influence still prevails (think about that journalist or the scientific advisor who wa shut up with a needle in the kremiln, it is clearly visible on a number of websites ((you tube included))

When1eight=2zeros

And how could i forget his college academy team is CSKA moscow a club which has refused to do away with its red army ties as well as its former KGB investors and shareholders, as well as his new found stake in the Russian hockey federation, your prolly looking at the next Inforcer of Said racket, just look into it fellas.

When1eight=2zeros

First internet chat
I've removed the following prose due to issues raised regarding the reliability of its source. I'm leaving it here until a better source can be found to support it.
 * During his rehabilitation period, Bure took part in Canada's first-ever live internet chat involving an NHL player. The session, set up by the Canucks between Bure and the fans, took place just one hour prior to a home game against the Hartford Whalers on February 7, 1996.

Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 02:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Cherry vs. Quinn
I know the CBC source (as well as the youtube video) says the clip aired on March 27, 1995, but March 27, 1995 fell on a Monday, not a Saturday. Coach's Corner airs exlcusively on Saturdays as part of CBC's Hockey Night in Canada, and has done so for many years. Only during the playoffs will it air on other days of the week as well. Also, according to http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/VAN/1995_games.html, the Canucks played the Red Wings at home on Saturday, March 25, which is evidenced by the footage in the clip that shows the Canucks in their white home jerseys and the Red Wings in their red away jerseys. It would therefore make sense that the clip aired on March 25, not March 27.

Thoughts? Ericster08 (talk) 14:37, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

"Pasha"
"Trained in the Soviet Union, where he was known as "Pasha" . . ." Considering EVERY person in Russia named Pavel is known as Pasha, is this really noteworthy? That's like saying about somebody named David, "Trained in the USA, where he was known as Dave . . ."Djob (talk) 11:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Birth place
The Bure brothers were born in Minsk(Belarus). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.98.157.59 (talk) 19:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have a Reliable Source please add it right now all the RS state they were born in Moscow.--Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 14:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Minsk is correct. The family and thus young Pavel too was registered in Moscow, but Pavel was born in his mother's hometown in Belarus. Source: . -103.212.222.155 (talk) 11:40, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * One article from a Belarusian news site does not negate the overwhelming sources that state he was born in Moscow. And it seems unlikely that in the 46 years since his birth no one else has bothered to claim he was born in Minsk. Kaiser matias (talk) 12:33, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Also according to the Russian Ice Hockey Federation he was born in Minsk, I think that's a source about as reliable it gets in these matters: Поздравляем Павла Буре -2001:14BA:1FFE:7100:5DBA:78BE:B9FB:4265 (talk) 08:12, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Home ice for the Canucks in 1991.
This articles states the Bure started with the Canucks in 1991 at the Pacific Coliseum. I believe the Canucks had moved to BC Place Stadium years before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.98.183.202 (talk) 16:56, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The Canucks played at the Pacific Coliseum from their inception in 1970 until 1995, when they moved to GM Place (now Rogers Arena). They never played a game at BC Place, except for their upcoming game on March 3, 2014. Kaiser matias (talk) 12:31, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Pavel Bure


text: Talk:Artem Chubarov

title: Talk:Artem Chubarov


text:
Talk:Pavel Datsyuk

Dynamo Yekaterinburg
There may be an error in the career stats as I can find no evidence of this team ever existing in the Russian Super League, might this be a Rus-Jr club? IrisKawling (talk) 03:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's Russian Major League --Lvivske (talk) 17:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Nickname
Saving nicknames for future use in prose. Pasha Houdini -Djsasso (talk) 01:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Personal Life
Is that actually a picture of Pavel and his family? If yes, where did it come from and how did it get here. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tontokowalski46 (talk • contribs) 07:19, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I sectioned Pavel's career from season to season
OK or no? I also wrote about the Wings' playoff outcomes and Datsyuk's involvement. --Irishock777 (talk) 00:05, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I think it looks pretty good. The NHL section was starting to get a bit long so this breaks it up nicely.  If we can round out some of these sub-sections so that they contain a bit more information than it might make sense to make them all sub-headings so that they are navigable from the table of contents.  You might also want to change the wording of the heading "Superstar Status."  While I agree that this guy is a superstar, using that kind of description in the article doesn't strike me as too encyclopedic.  Overall I think it really helps the article though, good work.  MisterUnit (talk) 14:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

One of the pictures is way too big.
Some user with this IP address 188.167.179.91 uploaded a picture of Datsyuk that is too big in size on that article on the International play section. Someone get that picture down to size as soon as possible. Get it done. BattleshipMan (talk) 07:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Eastern Orthodox Church
Should the article say he belongs to the Eastern Orthodox Church? Is this notable enough about his personal life? 173.51.123.97 (talk) 04:22, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Pavel Datsyuk


text:
Talk:Viacheslav Fetisov

Untitled
Apparently there is some confusion, even by me, as to who won what medal in the 1980 Olympics. The medal round is a round-robin, and medals are determined by who has the most "points" at the end of the playoff, similar to the NHL's point system. U.S.A. had 5 pts., USSR had 4 pts., and Sweden had 3pts. The Gold went to the USA, the Silver to the USSR, and the bronze to Sweden. Here's a reference from Olympic.org

One of the best defense of all time? ...he was good, but i've never heard of him in those regards. Maybe some rewording is needed? david what! (talk) 17:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Viacheslav Fetisov


text:
Marva Whitney

Marva Whitney (born Marva Ann Manning; May 1, 1944 – December 22, 2012) was an American funk singer commonly referred to by her honorary title, Soul Sister #1. Whitney was considered by many funk enthusiasts to be one of the "rawest" and "brassiest" music divas.

Early life
Born in Kansas City, Kansas, her performing career started as early as three years old while touring with her family's gospel group, the Manning Gospel Singers. At the age of 16 she joined the Alma Whitney Singers and two years later she married Harry Olander Whitney with whom she had a daughter Sherrie Whitney. She began singing R&B music for the first time in 1963 at a Kansas City venue and studied music at college. Whilst working at a garment factory, she continued performing in nightclubs and at local talent competitions, and by the mid-1960s had joined local group Tommy (Gadson) & The Derbys as their lead singer. The group opened for many leading performers passing through Kansas City. In 1967, she left the group, and turned down offers to tour with Bobby Bland and Little Richard before joining the James Brown Revue as a featured vocalist. Her marriage to Harry Olander Whitney ended in divorce in 1965. Subsequently, she was married, albeit briefly to disc jockey Phil Wardell.

Career
Her first solo single, "Your Love Was Good To Me", was recorded for King Records in mid-1967, but was unsuccessful as were two follow-up singles. She toured Europe, Asia and Africa with James Brown with whom she was in a relationship, and in early 1968 he produced her fourth solo single, "Unwind Yourself", in a more funky style. Although the record was not a chart hit, it was later sampled numerous times, most recognisably by the 45 King on his 1987 track "The 900 Number", which was then sampled by DJ Chad Jackson on his 1990 hit single "Hear the Drummer (Get Wicked)" (UK number 3 in July 1990), by DJ Kool on his 1996 hit "Let Me Clear My Throat" (UK number 6 in March 1997), Sway on his 2009 track "Mercedes Benz" and Mac Miller on his 2011 track "Party on Fifth Ave."

Whitney's first chart hit came with "It's My Thing (You Can't Tell Me Who to Sock It To)," a response to The Isley Brothers' hit "It's Your Thing"; her record reached number 19 on the Billboard R&B chart and number 82 on the Billboard Hot 100 in 1969. She followed up with two smaller hits, "Things Got To Get Better (Get Together)" (R&B number 22) and "I Made A Mistake Because It's Only You Pt. 1" (R&B number 32), and also recorded songs like "I'm Tired, I'm Tired, I'm Tired (Things Better Change Before Its Too Late)", and "If You Don't Work (You Can't Eat)." After recording three albums - Unwind Yourself (1968), Live and Lowdown at the Apollo [actually live in Georgia] (1969) and It's My Thing (1969) - and about 13 singles with James Brown as producer and writer or co-writer, an exhausted Whitney left the Brown stable in 1969 (or 1970) and returned to Kansas City.

Clarence Cooper and Allan Bell took over her management and initially struggled to get Whitney into major venues. A trip to Chicago in 1970 and a visit to producer Floyd Smith resulted in a contract for the Isley Brothers' T-Neck label. After divorcing Phil Wardell, she married Ellis Taylor of Forte Records with whom she had a son, and recorded further singles for the label, including "Daddy Don't Know About Sugar Bear", her most successful post Brown single that was picked up for national distribution by Nashville's Excello records. She retired from recording for several years making only local appearances in Kansas City, returning to the studio in 1977 for a Forte single with her brother Melvin Manning. She divorced Taylor in 1977 and relocated to Los Angeles for the next fifteen years.

In the early 1980s, she briefly joined a group, Coffee, Cream & Sugar, formed by singer Alfred "Pico" Payne and Mary Lou Flesh. Later in the 1980s, she started to perform regularly with former James Brown band members such as Maceo Parker, Fred Wesley, Pee Wee Ellis, and Lyn Collins, as the JB Allstars. She returned to Kansas City as it became apparent that Funk music was essentially unfashionable and opportunities were sparse. She later married for the fourth time a preacher and returned to her gospel roots.

In 2006, Whitney collaborated with German born DJ/collector/manager DJ Pari and Japanese funk orchestra Osaka Monaurail to produce a new single, "I Am What I Am". Osaka Monaurail style themselves on the James Brown sound and the single was produced in the fashion of an authentic release of the recordings she produced with Brown in 1969. Two successful tours of Japan and a full-length album release followed, also entitled "I Am What I Am". In 2007, 2008 and 2009, the tour was also brought to Europe where she maintained a cult following.

In December 2009, Whitney had a stroke on stage during a concert in Lorne, Australia, while performing with The Transatlantics at Falls Festival. The remaining dates of her tour were cancelled; after Whitney made a partial recovery she performed again in 2010. In December 2012, Whitney died from complications of pneumonia at her home. She was 68.

title: Marva Whitney


text:
Talk:Sergei Gonchar

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title: Talk:Sergei Gonchar


text:
Talk:Nikolai Khabibulin

Stats
I am working on a stats table to add to this article, and I'll keep it here until it's ready to be moved into the actual article. If anyone else wants to work on it, feel free to do so. --Muéro 18:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nikolai Khabibulin


text:
Talk:Vladimir Konstantinov

Line:
>Ironically, "gnida" is a Russian slang word for "rotten bastard" (pronounced gh-needa)

While I have no idea if this is true, I feel it's unencyclopedically insulting. I'm gonna remove it but leave it on the talk page for further review. TheHYPO 05:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Its direct meaning is "nit", it also can be said about somebody as an insult with the meaning close to what was mentioned above.--Vs1969 (talk) 17:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC) I am a russian speaking person and gnida does mean "rotten bastard". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.60.55 (talk) 07:55, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:BelievePatch.jpg
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Nickname
Shouldn't it be the "Vladiator," instead of the "Vladinator"? WhiteBTX (talk) 02:38, 3 January 2016 (UTC) Saving nickname here so it can be added into the prose when there is a source. "The Vladinator, Vlad the Impaler" -Djsasso (talk) 03:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

1998 Stanley Cup Champion
We're crediting him with winning the 1998 Stanley Cup? Are you kidding me? All emotional sentiment aside, his stat line that season reads 0 games played. Calling him a two-time champ is dishonest. Granthursin (talk) 20:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)granthursin

living circumstances
"Konstantinov lives in the Detroit area but requires full-time nursing care and struggles to get around with the aid of a walker. His wife, Irina, now lives in West Orange, New Jersey with their daughter, Anastasia Konstantinov."

This is unsourced and just seems odd, to me, but maybe that's because I am not Russian, therefore, lacking in knowledge of their customs. It seems to imply that they are not happily married. NorthernThunder (talk) 13:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Vladimir Konstantinov


text:
Talk:Ilya Kovalchuk

Untitled
nhl.com lists Kovalchuk as a Right Wing, but he's called a left wing here in one reference and simply a winger in another. Does he play both sides? Has he played different sides with different teams/lines? Since there is a discrepancy, this should be discussed on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.10.178 (talk) 14:41, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I've also seen his name as Ilja Kovalchuk in some cases. Any insights on this? --67.34.5.167 02:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Simply a difference in transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin. According to European standards, it's "Ilja", but either works. Doogie2K 18:13, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The writing of this article REALLY needs to be cleaned up. There are many incomplete sentences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.119.120.92 (talk) 21:26, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Ilya Kovalchuk
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Ilya Kovalchuk's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "trade": From Dany Heatley:  From Jaromír Jágr:

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:08, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Personal life
Ilya married his long time girlfriend,Nicole. The couple has 3 children, Karoline, Philips, Artem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HockeyGirlx10 (talk • contribs) 17:25, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you have a reliable source to verify that information?-- Giants 27  ( Contribs  |  WP:CFL ) 18:51, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Resigning with Devils
Via his agent, it was announced today that he is resigning. More information Tuesday when he is available to the media. Comlag225 (talk) 16:51, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE get a new main picture of him since he's gonna be in jersey for 17 years? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.89.107.199 (talk) 16:32, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As he is a living person, we will require an image that is released under a free license before we can make a change. If you can find an image licensed as PD, or CC-BY(-SA) on Flickr without a no commercial use restriction, we might be able to use that immediately.  Otherwise, an updated image will have to wait until someone who has taken a picture of Kovalchuk in a Devils uniform uploads that photo under a compatible license. Resolute 16:58, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Kovalchuk resigned from the Devils and retired from the NHL in order to play in the Russian KHL. So NOT a retired ice hockey player. A russian newspaper (sport-express.ru) already announced that Kovalchuk will play for St. Petersburg SKA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.238.157.46 (talk) 21:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

17 yr conract rejected by league office (unofficial)
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nhl/news/story?id=5396861

Still tentative at best, but an official league announcement may be around the corner. --Madchester (talk) 02:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

New section
I have been editing this page, especially the retirement section. In the future it might be a good idea to include a "Legacy" section, but I think it might be a bit too early for it now. Wisdomthatiswoe (talk) 13:23, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ilya Kovalchuk


text:
Talk:Igor Larionov

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Donegal

Donegal may refer to:

County Donegal, Ireland

 * County Donegal, a county in the Republic of Ireland, part of the province of Ulster
 * Donegal (town), a town in County Donegal in Ulster, Ireland
 * Donegal Bay, an inlet in the northwest of Ireland bordering counties Donegal, Leitrim and Sligo
 * Donegal County Council, the authority responsible for local government in County Donegal
 * Donegal Castle, a castle in Donegal Town in County Donegal
 * Donegal Airport, an airport in north-west County Donegal
 * Donegal GAA, County Board responsible for Gaelic games in County Donegal
 * Donegal county football team
 * Donegal (Dáil constituency), a parliamentary constituency in the lower house of the Irish parliament since 2016

Canada

 * Donegal, Perth County, Ontario
 * Donegal, Renfew County, Ontario, in Bonnechere Valley

UK Parliament constituencies

 * Donegal (UK Parliament constituency)
 * Donegal Borough (Parliament of Ireland constituency), a constituency represented in the Irish House of Commons until 1800
 * County Donegal (Parliament of Ireland constituency), a constituency represented in the Irish House of Commons until 1800
 * East Donegal (UK Parliament constituency)
 * North Donegal (UK Parliament constituency)
 * South Donegal (UK Parliament constituency)
 * West Donegal (UK Parliament constituency)

United States

 * Donegal, Pennsylvania, a borough in Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania
 * Donegal School District, a public school district in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
 * Donegal Township, Butler County, Pennsylvania
 * Donegal Township, Washington County, Pennsylvania
 * Donegal Township, Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania
 * East Donegal Township, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
 * West Donegal Township, Pennsylvania

Other

 * HMS Donegal (1798), a 74-gun ship of the line
 * HMS Donegal (1858), a 101-gun screw-driven first rate ship of the line
 * SS Donegal, Midland Railway passenger ferry ship launched in 1904 and sunk in 1917
 * Donegal tweed, a handwoven tweed manufactured in County Donegal
 * Donegal Carpets, a brand of handmade wool carpets
 * Donegal Creameries, dairy company with operations in Ireland, Britain, the Netherlands and Brazil.

title: Donegal


text: Talk:Roman Lyashenko

title: Talk:Roman Lyashenko


text:
Talk:Sergei Mikhaylovich Makarov

Untitled
his stats are available from: http://www.russianrocket.de/Stats/hauptteil_stats.html

title: Talk:Sergei Mikhaylovich Makarov


text:
Talk:Alexander Mogilny

Time in the minors
It's not true about Mogilny's being in the minors for "economic reasons" - a player receives the same pay in the Minors unless he has a two-way contract. Besides that, the "90%" is a totally arbitrary number. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.163.211 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 8 September 2006

Asian
A number of people are saying Alex holds records for European players, yet he's ASIAN not European. I've added a request for 3rd opinion to the main web page. Please ensure that you've checked the map for the location of Khabarovsk before commenting to this thread.Sbrynen (talk)

 * That has more to do with ethnicity then geography. —Krm500 (Communicate!) 04:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It has everything to do with geography. Khabarovsk, his home town is in Asia, 3000km from Europe and 30km from the Chinese border, and is EAST of almost all of China, and only 200km from the Pacific Ocean  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbrynen (talk • contribs) 04:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Being Russian is most commonly tied to being European. You would be hard pressed to find ANY source claiming Mogilny is Asian, but you will find many stating he is European. – Nurmsook!  talk...  17:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Just because it's tied to being European doesn't mean it's correct. His hometown of Khabarovsk is clearly Asian, where Asian="something or someone from Asia".209.139.197.120 (talk) 17:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

7PO There are many Asians living (born and raised) all over the world. There are many Europeans living (also born and raised) all over Asia. The designation is used as an ethnicity detail. Geography is much more subjective than genetics. Unless there are significant notable sources that call him Asian (and none that contradict this). NJGW (talk) 22:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Technically Jordin Tootoo is Asian then because indians came to NA from there....this whole section needs to deleted, there's nothing to qualify what is "asian". it should go by nationality or ethnicity, but not geography, or georgraphy of your grandparents, etc.--Львівське (talk) 19:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

He is ethnically Russian so he is not in the Asian category.--Something12356789 (talk) 17:01, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The hockey hall of fame considers records by place of birth, not by citizenship or ethnicity. see List of NHL statistical leaders by country or http://www.hhof.com/HTML/r&r-C.shtml. Strong argument that he should be recognized for holding asian records Sbrynen (talk) 02:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What does that have anything to do with him being Asian? As NJGW, unless there are significant notable sources that call him Asian, and none that contradict this, then this change should not and will not happen. – Nurmsook!  talk...  03:44, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * HHOF goes by country of birth, not tectonic plate.--Львівське (talk) 19:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

If you want to go by what is geographically correct then yes, Alexander Mogilny is Asian as he was born into an area referred to as continental Asia. However, the problem is, most people consider the demonym "Asian" to connote Eastern Asian aka Oriental ethnic people. Russia is also considered past of Eurasia. Eastern Europe or Asia. Considering that countries such as Kazakhstan now fall into the Asian continent and Russia is technically an Asian continent, then Alexander Mogilny is an Asian-continent born player. It's all semantics. Turkey is trying to become a member of the E.U. If it succeeds, it and it's population will be considered European. As for stats, we go by Country and so hes Russian. If we go by place of birth, then he could be considered Asian as he falls geographically into Asian territory.

The key question here is, does anyone really mind if he is considered Asian or European? I just consider him a Russian player. What's weird is, why is Manny Malhotra considered one of the first South-Asian players in the NHL when he was born in Canada?
 * Because people are trying to push their POV--Львівське (talk) 19:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

First Non-North American Captain
Mogilny is NOT the first first non-North American captain. That goes to Lars-Erik Sjöberg, who captained the Winnipeg Jets in 1979-80. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NYR682 (talk • contribs) 02:10, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Early NHL career?
This article desperately needs more detail and focus on Mogilny's early NHL career, particularly his time in Buffalo and Vancouver. The casual reader would assume from this article that Mogilny's time in Toronto was pretty much the highlight of his NHL career, and any educated hockey observer knows that this is inaccurate and very much not true. It's appears that a bias may have been involved in the writing of this article as it now exists, likely written by a Leafs' supporter. Anyone who wants to elaborate on Mogilny's earlier career, please feel free. Freshfighter9talk 23:21, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alexander Mogilny