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Chinese Super League

The Chinese Football Association Super League, commonly known as the Chinese Super League or the CSL, currently known as the China Resources C'estbon Chinese Football Association Super League for sponsorship reasons, is the highest tier of professional football in China, operating under the auspices of the Chinese Football Association (CFA). The league was established in 2004 by the rebranding of the former top division, Chinese Jia-A League.

Initially contested by 12 teams in its inaugural year, the league has since expanded, with 16 teams competing in the 2024 season. A total of 38 teams have competed in the CSL since its inception, with 9 of them winning the title: Guangzhou (eight), Shandong Taishan (four), Shanghai Port (two), Shenzhen, Dalian Shide, Changchun Yatai, Beijing Guoan, Jiangsu, and Wuhan Three Towns (one title each). The current Super League champions are Shanghai Port, who won the 2023 edition.

The Chinese Super League is one of the most popular professional sports leagues in China, with an average attendance of 24,107 for league matches in the 2018 season. This was the twelfth-highest of any domestic professional sports league in the world and the sixth-highest of any professional association football league in the world, behind the Bundesliga, the Premier League, La Liga, Serie A and Liga MX.

The League is now running under the authorization of the Chinese Football Association, The CSL Company, which is currently the commercial branch of the League, is a corporation in which the CFA and all of the member clubs act as shareholders. It is planned that the CFA will ultimately transfer their shares of The CSL Company to the clubs and professional union which consists of CSL clubs will be established as the League's management entity.

Competition
Unlike many top European leagues like Bundesliga, Premier League, La Liga, and Serie A, the Chinese Super League starts in February or March and ends in November or December. In each season, each club plays each of the other clubs twice, once at home and another away. With 16 clubs currently in the Chinese Super League in Season 2023, each club plays 30 matches. There are 8 games every round, and a total of 240 games in the season.

The two lowest-placed teams by the end of the season are relegated to the China League One and the top two teams from the League One are promoted, taking their places.

The League position is determined by the highest number of points accumulated during the season. If two or more teams are level on points, tiebreakers are, in the following order
 * 1) Highest number of points accumulated in matches between the teams concerned;
 * 2) Highest goal difference in matches between the teams concerned;
 * 3) Highest number of goals scored in matches between the teams concerned;
 * 4) Highest points accumulated by the reserve teams in the reserve league
 * 5) Highest points accumulated by the U19 teams in the U19 league
 * 6) Highest goal difference;
 * 7) Highest number of goals scored;
 * 8) Fair-Play points (Clubs deduct 1 point for a yellow card, and 3 points for a red card);
 * 9) Draw by lots.

Chinese Super League clubs in international competition
When the Asian Football Confederation started the AFC Champions League in the 2002–03 season, China was given 2 slots in the competition. Qualification for the AFC Champions League changed in 2009 as AFC distributed 4 slots to China. The top three of the league, as well as the winner of the Chinese FA Cup, qualify for the AFC Champions League of the next year. If the FA Cup finalists finish the league in 3rd or higher, the 4th place team in the league will take the Champions League spot.

Between the 2002–03 and the 2017 season, Chinese clubs won the AFC Champions League two times, behind Korean K-League with five wins, and Japanese J-League with three wins.

Development
On 17 November 2017, the Vice-president of the CFA, Li Yuyi, disclosed the expansion plan of the top four level leagues of China. The Chinese Super League is planning to expand to 18 clubs, followed by China League One with 20 clubs, China League Two with 32 clubs and the Chinese Football Association Member Association Champions League with 48 clubs.

Origins
Though it could be argued that football was invented by the Chinese, organised league play of association football in China only began in 1951 with the establishment of the Chinese National Football Conference as a round-robin tournament, with 8 teams participating. Development was rapid: in 1954, the competition was renamed the National Football League, in 1956, it was divided into two Divisions, and promotion and relegation between the two tiers started in 1957. In the 1980s, the Chinese Football Association allowed enterprise entities to sponsor and invest in football teams, and as a result, the league entered a semi-pro period in 1987. Sponsored by Goldlion Group, the league played its first-ever home and away season: participating were the top 7 clubs of the 1986 Division 1, together with Liaoning, who were 1985 season champions, but did not compete in 1986 league season due to participating in the Asian Club Championship. The tournament was renamed the National Football League Division 1 Group A, or Chinese Jia-A League for short, and the other 8 clubs of Division 1 and the top 4 clubs from Division 2 participated in the Chinese Jia-B League. The two groups merged in the 1988 season, but divided again in 1989.

In the early 1990s, the CFA began to allow enterprises to purchase football clubs and manage them, whether they were state-owned enterprises or private-owned companies, and in 1992, it was announced that, as part of the sports system reform project, the Chinese Jia-A League would become the country's first professional football league, starting with the 1994 season. All Jia-A clubs were ordered to set up professionally before 1994, and all Jia-B clubs were given an extra year to realise professional structural reform. The Jia-A league achieved success in its early years, but in the late ’90s, its management practices received heavy criticism; special attention was paid to the lack of continuity in key policies, as well as a lack of sustainable development in certain member clubs. At the same time, the league was affected by gambling, match-fixing and corruption. As a result, the chaotic state of Jia-A had become a "troubled investment environment," with sponsors and club owners both bowing out. In recognition of the aforementioned, as well as a multitude of other factors, the Chinese Football Association decided to reform the League system, which ultimately led to the creation of the Chinese Super League.

On January 13, 2001, Yan Shiduo, vice-president of the Chinese Football Association, discussed setting up a new professional league system, and in 2002, the CFA announced the establishment of the Chinese Super League, with the first season beginning in 2004. Intending to introduce truly commercial methods and let the professional football market in China operate more freely, the CSL seeks to draw on the experience of professional Leagues in Europe to redesign the league structure and strengthen professionalism.

Foundation
Compared to the Jia-A, the CSL is a lot more demanding on teams. The CFA and CSL committee imposed a range of minimum criteria to ensure professional management and administration, financial probity, and a youth development program at every club. The CSL published first edition of CSL club criteria in 2002 and revised it several times, club license system was introduced since 2004. Besides the regular professional league, the CSL also has a reserve league, and Youth super league plays in U-19,U-17,U-15,U-14 and U-13 levels.

The CSL and China League One's goals are to promote high-quality and high-level competition, introduce advanced managerial concepts to the market, enforce the delivery of minimum standards of professionalism, encourage an influx of higher-quality foreign coaches and players, and gradually establish the European system for player registrations and transfers.

Summary
The first CSL season began in 2004, with 12 teams in the league. The inaugural season was plagued with controversy, which continued from the former league, Jia-A, and where, since 1999, scandals such as match-fixing and gambling had been uncovered. This resulted in the loss of interest in the domestic game, low attendances and great financial losses.

The original plan was to have one relegated team and two promoted teams for the 2004 season and 2005 season, thus increasing the number of teams in 2006 to 14. But the CFA's decisions caused the relegations to be cancelled for these 2 years.

For the 2005 season, the league expanded to 14 teams after Wuhan Huanghelou and Zhuhai Zobon won promotion from China League One. The Zhuhai team, formerly named Zhuhai Anping, had been bought by the Shanghai Zobon real estate company and relocated to Shanghai for the 2005 season, and subsequently renamed to Shanghai Zobon.

In 2006, the league was planned to expand to 16 teams with the newly promoted Xiamen Blue Lions and Changchun Yatai. However, Sichuan First City withdrew before the start of the season, leaving only 15 teams when the season started on March 11. Shanghai Zobon, after another change of ownership, was renamed Shanghai United.

In 2007, the league was again planned to be expanded to 16 teams, but once again it found itself one team short. Shanghai United's owner, Zhu Jun, bought a major share in local rival Shanghai Shenhua and merged the two teams. As a result, Shanghai Shenhua retained its name as it already had a strong fanbase in the city, while Shanghai United pulled out of the league.

In 2008, the season started with 16 clubs participating for the first time, however, Wuhan protested against punishments made by the CFA after a match against Beijing Guoan, and announced its immediate withdrawal from the league, which left the season to finish with 15 clubs.

Since 2009, the league has run with 16 stable clubs participating each year. Two are relegated to China League One, and two are promoted from China League One each season.

In 2010, the CSL was beset by a scandal going right to the top of the CFA. The Chinese government took nationwide action against football gambling, match-fixing and corruption, and former CFA vice presidents Xie Yalong, Nan Yong and Yang Yimin were arrested. On February 22, 2010, CFA relegated Guangzhou Yiyao for match-fixing in 2006 China League One Season, as well as Chengdu Blades for match-fixing in 2007 China League One season.

In 2011, the anti-corruption movement had visibly improved the image of the CSL, with increases to attendance. Clubs such as Guangzhou Evergrande and Shanghai Shenhua began investing heavily in foreign stars. After former Fluminense midfielder Darío Conca transferred in 2011, some notable signings during the 2012 seasons included former Chelsea forward Didier Drogba and Nicolas Anelka, former Barcelona midfielder Seydou Keita and Fábio Rochemback, former Sevilla FC forward Frédéric Kanouté, former Blackburn Rovers forward Yakubu and former Borussia Dortmund forward Lucas Barrios. Former Japan national team coach Takeshi Okada took up the reins as the new coach of Hangzhou Greentown, former Argentina national team coach Sergio Batista replaced Jean Tigana as Shanghai Shenhua's head coach, and former Italy national team and Juventus manager Marcello Lippi replaced Lee Jang-Soo as Guangzhou Evergrande's head coach.

In 2012, Guangzhou Evergrande became the first Chinese team to defend their CSL title, and to win consecutive titles. However, eight-time champions of Professional League, Dalian Shide, had seriously financial problems during the entire season, especially after the arrest of club owner Xu Ming. They had planned to merge with Dalian Aerbin, the other CSL club of the city, but the Chinese Football Association blocked the merger at the end, as Dalian Shide failed to cancel their registration as a CSL club before the merger. So Aerbin effectively purchased and swallowed up Shide, including the club's famed academy and training facilities. Dalian Shide was officially dissolved on 31 January 2013. The country's most successful club had ceased to exist.

In 2013, David Beckham became first global ambassador for CSL. In February 2013, Shanghai Shenhua was stripped of its 2003 Chinese Ji-A league title as part of a broad match-fixing crackdown. In total, 12 clubs were handed punishments, while 33 people, including former CFA vice-president Xie Yalong and Nan Yong, received life bans. Also in 2013, Guangzhou Evergrande Taobao won the Asian Champions League title, the first time a Chinese Super League team has won that award.

In 2014, Guangzhou Evergrande became the first Chinese club to win four consecutive professional league titles.

In 2015, ex-Tottenham midfielder Paulinho moved to Guangzhou Evergrande at the age of 27, Guangzhou Evergrande become AFC champions League champions for second time.

In 2016, the Chinese super league became a rising power in the global transfer market. Brazil international Ramires, Colombia international Jackson Martinez and Fredy Guarin were among the notable signings, while Pavel Nedvěd was appointed as second global ambassador for CSL.

2017 saw the Chinese Super League (CSL) catapulted to global attention. Players such as Oscar, Carlos Tevez, Ricardo Carvalho, Alexandre Pato and Mikel John Obi all moved east during the year. Guangzhou Evergrande won their 7th consecutive league title.

2018, in the 28th round of the 2018 Chinese Super League, the two title favourites Shanghai SIPG and Guangzhou Evergrande Taobao clashed head-to-head, with Shanghai SIPG coming away with 5 - 4 hard win over Guangzhou Evergrande Taobao to open up the points gap with Guangzhou Evergrande Taobao. At last, Shanghai SIPG won the 2018 Chinese Super League Champion, thus breaking Guangzhou Evergrande Taobao's 7-year monopoly of the Chinese Super League.

At the 2019 CSL Mobilization Meeting, the CFA Referees Committee officially announced that a professional referee system will be introduced in the CSL in 2019, with two foreign referees including Mark Clattenburg, Milorad Mažić, and three local referees to be officially hired as the first professional referees in the history of Chinese football. The two foreign professional referees will be mainly responsible for enforcing the Chinese Super League, but will also provide coaching and training for local referees.

Affected by COVID-19,the 2020 Chinese Super League has been postponed to July 25. The 16 teams will be divided into two groups to play in Suzhou and Dalian. This year's league was temporarily changed to a "Group stage + Knockout" format and adopted a tournament system.

Planning cooperation structure
The preparatory committee of the Chinese Professional Football League was established on May 27, 2016, with members from 5 CSL clubs, 3 CL1 clubs and 2 CL2 clubs, includes two CFA representatives. The blueprint is to have all of the three professional level leagues of China, the Chinese Super League, China Football League one and China Football League two separated from the League structure of the CFA. The PFL will be a private company wholly owned by its Member Clubs who make up the League at any one time. Each club is a shareholder, with one vote each on issues such as rule changes and contracts. The newly formed PFL would have commercial independence from The CFA, giving the PFL licence to negotiate its own broadcast and sponsorship agreements.

The CFA will no longer hold any shares of the League, but as the national governing body for football in China, the CFA is responsible for sanctioning competition Rule Books, and regulating on-field matters. It also organises The CFA Cup competition, in which PFL Member Clubs compete and the lower division leagues ranked after CL2, under a specific agreement between CFA and PFL. The CFA also has the ability to exercise a vote on certain specific issues, but has no role in the day-to-day running of the CSL, CL1 and CL2.

On January 3, 2017, the CFA announced that Chinese Professional Football League, formed as a limited company, will be established in March 2017, the CSL and CL1 clubs will be found members of the PFL starts from 2017, with CL2 planning to join the system by 2019. The PFL preparatory committee will discuss and establish the regulations and the structures of the PFL, holding the elections of the PFL president in January and February 2017. However, after a series of meetings includes CFA officers and club owners, the plan had been put on hold.

Rivalries
There are several key rivalries and local derbies that have formed in the Chinese Super League, including:

Jing–Hu rivalry
 * 2004: Beijing Guoan v Shanghai Shenhua

Shanghai derby
 * 2004: Shanghai Shenhua v Inter Shanghai
 * 2005: Shanghai Shenhua v Inter Shanghai v Shanghai United
 * 2006: Shanghai Shenhua v Shanghai United
 * 2012: Shanghai Shenhua v Shanghai Shenxin
 * 2013–2015: Shanghai Shenhua v Shanghai Shenxin v Shanghai Port
 * 2016–present: Shanghai Shenhua v Shanghai Port

Guangzhou derby
 * 2012–2022: Guangzhou v Guangzhou City

Dalian derby
 * 2012: Dalian Shide v Dalian Aerbin

Tianjin derby
 * 2017–2019: Tianjin Teda v Tianjin Tianhai

Beijing derby
 * 2018–2019: Beijing Guoan v Beijing Renhe

Wuhan derby
 * 2022: Wuhan Yangtze River v Wuhan Three Towns

Qingdao derby
 * 2024–present: Qingdao Hainiu v Qingdao West Coast

Player salaries and transfers
Professional footballers in China receive relatively high salaries when compared to other Chinese sports leagues and football leagues in other countries. The average salary for CSL players is $1,016,579 in 2017, it is ranked at eleventh place among all of the professional sports leagues and the sixth-highest of any professional association football league in the world.

CSL has two transfer windows—the primary pre-season transfer window lasts two months from January to February, and the secondary mid season transfer window runs one month from mid June to mid July. As of the 2018 season, the CSL introduced new rules mandating that each club must register a maximum 31-man squad, with 27 Chinese Players, including a player from Hong Kong, Macau and Chinese Taipei, and 4 foreign players. In the transfer window clubs could sign 5 Chinese players at any age, plus 3 under 21 Chinese players; clubs could register 4 foreign players in the winter transfer, and replace two of them in the summer transfer.

The record transfer fee for a CSL player has risen rapidly since the investment boost started in 2015. The six most expensive transfers with players coming to CSL have exceeded €30 million, with Chelsea selling Oscar to Shanghai SIPG in December 2016 for a fee of €60 million, Zenit Saint Petersburg selling Hulk to Shanghai SIPG for €55.8 million in July 2016, Shakhtar Donetsk selling Alex Teixeira to Jiangsu Suning for €50 million in February 2016, Atlético Madrid selling Jackson Martínez to Guangzhou Evergrande for €42 million in February 2016, Villarreal selling Cédric Bakambu to Beijing Guoan for €40 million in February 2018, Atlético Madrid selling Yannick Carrasco to Dalian Yifang for €30 million in February 2018. Guangzhou Evergrande's sale of Paulinho to Barcelona for €40 million in 2017 broke the record for a CSL player transfer to other leagues. Transfer fees for domestic players also increased dramatically. Beijing Guoan sold Chinese International Zhang Chengdong to Hebei China Fortune for ¥15 million in January 2017, breaking the domestic transfer record for Chinese players.

The Chinese Football Association introduced a new transfer tax to restrict transfer spending. On June 20, 2017, CFA announced that any club that pays more than ¥45 million for a foreign player transfer or ¥20 million for a Chinese player transfer must pay the same amount to a CFA youth development fund.

In December 2020, the CFA imposed a salary cap on the Super League. Starting with the 2021 season, total player wages are capped at ¥600 million, with a separate limit of €10 million for foreign players. Individual player salaries are also capped, at ¥5 million before tax for Chinese players and €3 million for foreign players.

Foreign player policy
In early years, numerous players from Eastern Europe, Africa and Latin America regions were signed as the foreign players in the Chinese league. Steadily, a lot of players transferred to China from major European and South American Leagues. The league has rules, at present, restricting the number of foreign players strictly to four per team. A team could use a maximum of three foreign players on the field each game. This is to promote native player improvement and to conform to rules regarding international club competitions in the AFC. Between 2009 and 2017, there was an additional slot for a player from AFC countries. During the middle of the 2012 season, it was decided that teams that were competing in the AFC Champions League were allowed to have two extra foreign players, which can bring the number of foreigners on a team's seven; however, the policy was removed in the 2013 season.

Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwanese players
Policy for Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwanese players has changed continually. Players from Hong Kong Football Association were considered foreigners at the beginning of 2009, but the league held back the change until the summer transfer window. After the 2010 season, players from Macau Football Association and Chinese Taipei Football Association (except goalkeepers) were not considered foreigners in CSL matches, but will be regarded as foreigners in AFC competitions. In the 2015 season, players who had not played for the Hong Kong national football team, Macau national football team or the Chinese Taipei national football team were no longer deemed native players. In the 2016 and 2017 season, players from the three associations whose contract was signed after 1 January 2016 were no longer deemed native players. From the 2018 season, a club could register one non-naturalized player from the three associations as a native player. According to the Chinese FA, a non-naturalized player refers to someone who was first registered as a professional footballer in the three football associations. Furthermore, Hong Kong or Macau players must be of Chinese descent of Hong Kong or Macau permanent resident, and Taiwanese players must be citizens of Taiwan.

Most goals and appearances
Bold denotes players still playing in the CSL.

Bold denotes players still playing in the CSL.

Head coaches
In early years Chinese and Serbian coaches achieved success in the Chinese Super League. Just like the Jia-A period, the majority of foreign coaches were from countries like Serbia, Croatia and South Korea. Nowadays most CSL clubs appoint coaches from Western Europe and South America. Guangzhou Evergrande were the first side to spend big to bring in European and South American coaches. World Cup winning managers Marcello Lippi and Luiz Felipe Scolari had successful experiences at Guangzhou Evergrande. Famous coaches who have coached in China include Fabio Capello, Felix Magath, Manuel Pellegrini, Dan Petrescu, André Villas-Boas, Cuca, Sven-Göran Eriksson, Sergio Batista, Radomir Antić.

Attendance
The Chinese Super League has the highest average attendance of any football league in Asia. However, stadiums have capacity restrictions.

Attendance by clubs
This table lists average attendances of clubs yearly, but only for seasons when that club played in the top division. Clubs are listed with their current names.

Awards
The official Chinese Super league annual awards are given to clubs, players, managers and referees based on their performance during the season.

Trophy
The Fire-god trophy is the official trophy award to CSL champions. The trophy was created by the Sculpture Department of the Central Academy of Fine Arts and donated by the official partner of the Chinese Super League, Hengyuanxiang Group, in 2004. It consists of a pure gold trophy and a nephrite plinth base. The lower part of the trophy is the model of a Great Wall beacon tower; on the upper part, on top of the rising beacon, is a football wrapped by the earth, while the base has the engraved years and names of each Chinese Super League winner since 2004. The trophy weighs 5.548 kg. The trophy and plinth are 52 cm tall.

The trophy is not awarded to the winning club permanently. After the award ceremony they are awarded a replica, and they are allowed to retain the genuine trophy for one year.

Player of the Year
It is also named the "Most Valuable Player".

Golden Boot Award
This award is awarded to the top goalscorer of the league that year.

There is also an award that is awarded to the top Chinese goalscorer of that season, which was first introduced in 2011.

Youth Player of the Year
There is also an award that is awarded to the U-23 player of the year, which was first introduced in 2017.

Title sponsor
The current official title sponsor of the Chinese Super League is C'estbon, since 2024.

Partners and suppliers
As well as sponsorship for the league itself, the Chinese Super League has a number of official partners and suppliers. The official equipment supplier for the league is Nike who have had the contract since the 2005 season. According to data published by Imedia Culture Communication Co., Ltd, the sponsor value from official partners and suppliers of Chinese Super League reaches 600 million Yuan in 2017 season.

The following table shows the partners and suppliers of the Chinese Super League. Bold denotes current sponsor.

China
The first broadcast rights holders of the rebranded Chinese Super League was the Shanghai Media Group (SMG). In September 2003, they signed a three-year contract for 2004, 2005 and 2006 seasons. The second SMG contract was signed in February 2007 for the five-year period from 2007 to 2011.

CCTV acquired the CSL television rights in 2012, and they held the rights until 2015 under annual contract. CSL was broadcast in CCTV's public cable TV channel CCTV5 and CCTV5+ but the satellite TV rights were sold to Cloud Media from 2014 to 2017.

Starting from the 2016 season, the Chinese Super League sold its television rights on a collective basis. However, it benefits CSL clubs almost equally according to CSL commercial contracts. The money is divided into three parts: 10% reserved for the Chinese football association and CSL company, which is paid out as facilities fees and management expenses, as to the remaining 90%, 81% of them is divided equally between the clubs; and 9% is awarded on a merit basis based on final league position.

The current media rights holder is the China Sports Media Co., Ltd. (CSM, simplified Chinese: 体奥动力, pinyin: tǐ ào dòng lì) CSM bought the rights for five seasons (2016–2020) for 8 billion yuan in October 2015. On January 24, 2018, The CSL and CSM reached an agreement to extend the original five-year contract to a 10-year one (2016–2025) and to raise the price to 11 billion yuan, about 1.73 billion dollars according to the exchange rate then prevailing.

Worldwide
Outside of China, currently IMG holds the global media rights to the Chinese Super League. The first contract was signed in 2016 for two seasons, and in 2018 IMG and CSM has sealed a three-year extension. The CSL is now broadcasting in 96 countries across the world.

- other matches also available on Sportdigital

Reserve league and Elite league
In early years the reserve league was open to all of the reserve teams from the Chinese Super League, China League One, and China League Two clubs. In 2011, the lower leagues started their own reserve league. The CSL reserve league strictly allows CSL clubs to compete, it is played at the next day of the regular league, also in home and away format, since 2018, the reserve league is held in the same venue of the regular league.

From 2014 to 2017, an elite league was held under the reserve league, restricted to players between 17 and 19 years old.

Youth development and Youth Super League
Since the inception of the CSL, the CFA has required all of its clubs to operate youth development, yet it was not a strict criteria until 2018. In the CSL club criteria created in 2017, clubs who could not meet the youth development programme criteria will be relegated to lower leagues.

According to the CSL club criteria, the youth teams of CSL clubs must have their own training center, coaching staff, and medical group, and a minimum of 15% of club budgets must be invested into youth programmes. CSL clubs are required to have 5 youth level teams at ages U19, U17, U15, U14 and U13. Clubs must have youth academies and introduce grassroots football plans to cooperate with local football associations, school and social corporations.

In 2017 the Youth League system was officially rebranded as Youth Super League. YSL is open to all the youth teams of all professional clubs, selected football academies and local FA training teams in China. Since 2018 the U19 Youth Super league is played with two groups of 18, a total of 36 clubs. Clubs plays home and away season with promotion and relegation introduced. The U17 and U15 Youth Super Leagues play in six regional leagues with 76 and 77 teams respectively. The U14 and U13 Youth Super leagues play in five regional leagues with 40 and 45 teams respectively.

Besides the Youth Super League, there are also other tournaments for youth teams across China, including Youth Championship plays in pre-season, Youth FA cup runs during the Youth Super League fixture, and Youth Champions Cup plays in off-season.

title: Chinese Super League


text: Template:Dublin Castle administration

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Template:Dublin Castle administration


text: User talk:69.143.225.97

title: User talk:69.143.225.97


text:
User talk:Joeyconnick

TV seasons
Whatever the naming convention for TV seasons has become, articles cannot be moved into or left sitting in redlinked categories that don't exist to have things filed in them. If categories are being moved, then they need to be moved first with articles being moved to the new category second, and not the obverse — I literally had to deal with three dozen redlinked "Television series season X episodes" redlinks on Special:WantedCategories today alone, which is three dozen more than there should have been. But since that report is going to update tonight, I couldn't just leave them sitting redlinked, which means the only possible solution to any redlink was to restore the category at its current location regardless of what renaming might take place in the future.

So if you're moving categories, then move the category first and then the articles second, not vice versa — and since that was done wrong the first time and I didn't make any mistakes, don't be thwacking me over the head with dozens of "your edit has been reverted" notifications, either. Fix it without the revert button, and I'll be reporting it to WP:ANI as disruptive and uncivil behaviour if I get any more of those wagged in my face. Bearcat (talk) 17:47, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

 * Hi... I think you have mistaken what happened. I moved a single category and then the articles that had been in it. So at most you would have gotten one "your edit was reverted" notification based on my actions. Maybe other people did similar things and sent more notifications your way but that's not on me.
 * And of course, you could have just moved the categories yourself when you saw that others had edited the season-related categories of various articles amidst a lot of TV-related renames happening, instead of undoing a bunch of other people's work, which no doubt might have generated a lot of revert notifications for them. I also question whether the sky would truly have fallen if you had left the red-linked new categories alone for a short period until people got around to moving them.
 * Jumping right to "I'm going to report you!" is also not a great look, especially for an admin—hardly going by AGF. Especially since I move the category first and then update the categories on the articles in question. It was other people, in the midst of moving the articles to the new naming convention, who had changed those articles' categories first without moving the categories... which, as far as I can tell, is not a crime and is not against any particular guideline. —Joeyconnick (talk) 04:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Les Misérables, defaultsort issue
Hi. You've reverted my edit on Les Misérables (2012 film), thus reinstating the problem I fixed. If you check Category:Films based on Les Misérables, you'll see the 2012 film now appears - again - as the first of the films, with all the earlier ones coming later. Clearly, this is chronologically indefensible. We need to change the defaultsorts of all the other articles, or fix just this one. My solution was the most parsimonious one. If you insist on technical correctness, you must now do the work with all the other articles. Or reinstate my edit. Your choice. Over to you. -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  08:52, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

 * If the wrong category sorting because of shitty DEFAULTSORT values on a handful of other articles offends you so much, feel free to fix them. But mangling a DEFAULTSORT value just so it sorts "properly" in a particular already-broken context because other articles are clearly using the wrong DEFAULTSORT values is ridiculous, as is then coming to my talk page and ordering me about with your "you must now do the work" edict.
 * Please also note that I am apparently not the only one who understands how to do DEFAULTSORT properly. Are you gonna go attack that editor and order them around too because they're not using your broken format? —Joeyconnick (talk) 16:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry if I caused any offence. -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:15, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Droop quota
Joey, we have opposed each other in editing of the STV article. (I am 2604...) but think you and I might have arrived at a collegial relationship.

I am having getting truth across in the Droop quota article. limelike curve... seems adamant that Droop quota is votes/(seats plus 1). But Droop himself and H-B himself said it is votes/(seats plus) plus 1, or at least anything greater than votes/(seats plus 1).

I don't know what to do as he or she repeatedly reverts my edits that are meant to try to get truth in the article. he or she even has taken out direct quote of Droop's own writing. as shown in the history and in my comments in the talk section.

limelike... has also just now edited STV article to say that STV is not sometimes called PRCV, but that change is wrong as STV is clearly sometimes called PRCV.

Tom 2604:3D09:8880:11E0:0:0:0:7044 (talk) 19:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

 * I recommend you start a discussion on the article's talk page and include the edits you find problematic. Then others can weigh in and the editor who made the changes will need to provide their rationale for them. —Joeyconnick (talk) 03:58, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Short films and recurring roles on television
Hi Joeyconnick, I've noted your response to my edit on the Daniel Doheny article about short films and their need for citations or their own articles (there are a large number of actor articles without either of them that I've seen so far, so am curious about the process); could you kindly direct me to the MOS guidelines on this as I couldn't find it mentioned within "MOS Film? Or is this outlined elsewhere? Can I ask why Doheny's 2012 film Hart Attack: First Gear has neither a citation or an article but has been retained in the table?

On recurring roles on television, how is it determined that actors are in such a role? Is there a minimum episode count or something? Many thanks. Mmberney (talk) 07:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Hi ,
 * Thanks for your questions. First, I should note that many, many... really many pages exist at Wikipedia that aren't necessarily following guidelines, so it's not surprising you may see some filmographies that include uncited short films without their own articles added by enthusiastic editors who aren't necessarily aware of the various guidelines we ought to be following.
 * Basically not listing short films is a result of WP:NFSOURCES: short films are unlikely to have received much, if any, coverage in independent reliable sources. If they have, great! Those can be cited and the film can be included. If said short film has an article, then the article itself should include suitable sources, so the short film can be included on that basis... I guess citing one or more of those sources in the filmography table could also be done but I myself wouldn't fault someone for not doing so.
 * Full-length films, by contrast, generally would have received more coverage, so by default they are left in even if they don't have an article or sources aren't provided for them.
 * There's also a WP:INDISCRIMINATE argument to be made that we don't need, as a general readership reference, to provide exhaustive filmographies of every single actor.
 * Recurring status in television series: ah yes, a grey area for sure. While there's a clear definition for main roles (actors listed in the main credits—usually these are title credits), for recurring it's a rule of thumb. For most, it's 3 or 4 appearances in a season or more, although that coalesced when (US TV) seasons were more like 20 or 22 episodes, not, as they sadly are frequently now, 13 or 8 or even 6. I would say for miniseries and short seasons, the bar for inclusion might drop as low as 2 (say 2 out of 4, 2 out of 6). Certainly a non–main cast actor appearing in most or all of season's episodes would count as "recurring". So in nearly all cases, if someone is listed as "Guest role" (rather than "Recurring role"), their episode count should not be ≥4.
 * If there's disagreement, people can discuss with other engaged editors at the TV series' Talk page and come to consensus. Or discuss at WT:WikiProject Television.
 * Hope that helps! —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

title: User talk:Joeyconnick


text:
Talk:Godsmack

Sully was a drummer since age 4?
If Sully was a drummer for 23 years in 1995, that would mean he was a drummer since age four. Maybe his momma says he banged on some buckets when he was four. But I don't think that's what one means by "drummer." I think that "fact" must be wrong. Thoughts?

Picture of Band
Is there a significant reason why the main picture has Criss Angel in it and it lists him in the picture blurb? It's confusing and implies that he's a member in the band. There's no reason a picture of the band without Criss Angel can't be used and would be much better, IMO. Mojodaddy (talk) 02:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If you think there is a better one, I'd be glad to see it. M3tal H3ad (talk) 02:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yesterday, I changed the caption to indicate that Criss isn't a band member. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 04:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt anyone could be so thick as to think a magician was in the band. Jasper420 22:00, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Is Sing365.com a reliable source?
I notice that the Godsmack bio page on the site Sing365.com is being used as a reference about 4 times in this article. I looked at the site page and am not sure if it really does meet WP:RS. If it indeed does not I think some of the info referenced there is available on the much more reliable (albeit less detailed) AllMusic.com. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 04:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It probably isn't. I was thinking of fishing out some of the sources and replacing them real soon. Burningclean  [speak]  16:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your feedback; I've cleaned up the sources & removed Sing365.com due to its questionable reliability. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 04:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Mispelling in references
One of the references is mispelled. It states the Edmunton sun as a sorce, when it should be the Edmonton Sun. I would fix it myself, but for some reason I can't edit the references. On a side note the Edmonton Sun may not be the best source to cite, as it's a lower quality newspaper, maybe a step or two up from a tabloid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.195.36 (talk) 08:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Genre
While they are definitely Alt. metal and Hard rock, Nu metal should be added to their genres because their first album had Nu metal listed in its genres. --User:Arcai August 5 2008, 7:33 PM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.21.61 (talk) 23:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I've added it. We have a reliable source (rockdetector, the site of Garry-Sharpe Young) calling them that. Prophaniti (talk) 16:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Guys I don't think post-grunge should be up there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanner9461 (talk • contribs) 05:25, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think nu metal should be up there either. Nu metal is mixing alternative metal with rap, and not even their first album shows that. They're mostly alternative metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.254.182 (talk) 05:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

how r they groove metal? (Seth4000 (talk) 17:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)) Seth4000

I don't think the genres section should have post-grunge if it already has nu metal listed already Fanboy00 (talk) 18:54, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Back on tour sorta
Aparrently Sully is touring a few towns on a solo tour I really don't know if this would count for all of godsmack or should just go on his peronal page. Anyone got any ideas. Oh by the way the source for this information is here, and if this is a reliable source then I don't know what is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adunian Prophet (talk • contribs) 00:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

What does their name mean?
what does their band name mean exactly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.198.230.244 (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There are a couple theories. They are both described in the article. The most thought of one is that they got their name from an Alice in Chains song, titled "God Smack". The song is about heroin abuse. Smack is another term for heroin and a lyric from the song is "And God's name is 'smack' for some." Burningclean  [speak]  00:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Or you can go with the story the band has been using for years, and that would be that one of the members made   fun on someone with a cold sore, and the next day when they met up to play, the same guy had a cold sore; then reportedly Sully Erna stated that god had smacked him, and the name stuff. Sources for the information numerious interviews, and even in the Night at the house of Blues concert included with the Godsmack: Good times, Bad times 10 years of Godsmack CD(Also a quick note I'm sorry if I sound agiatated but I'm just a little tired of having to answer the same question, plus this isn't a forum)--Adunian Prophet (talk) 22:57, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

You can find their source of the name in the book, the paths we choose, by sully erna(one of the members of the band) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.10.117.242 (talk) 21:49, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

acctually thats not true godsmack got the name from when sully erna found god after do a overload of meth...... so get it right dumbasses!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.204.165.83 (talk) 19:09, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

So does it have nothing to do with the actual phrase? I mean the one independent of either this band or AIC. I can't seem to find any disambiguation for the term "godsmack" in Wikipedia either. Maybe it's because it's more of a British English phrase? From the context of hearing it used in real life I can tell it means complete and udder shock. As in if you were to win the lottery you could say "I just won a billion dollars, I'm bloody godsmacked". I can't seem to find online references for this, that's actually why I had arrived here in the first place to find a clearer definition.Rlsaine (talk) 04:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean the phrase Gobsmack?67.248.165.202 (talk) 07:25, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Fans
theres a whole lot of fan-boy shit on pretty much every Godsmack related article. anyone care to fix it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasper420 (talk) 22:41, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Nu-Metal
Godsmack don´t play nu-metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.146.180.146 (talk) 15:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes they do. 71.101.238.116 (talk) 06:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No they don't but a "reliable" srource says that and according to wiki's wrong system we have to accept that.But no they don't play nu metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.2.102 (talk) 20:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

They Dont play Nu-Metal!!!! We should delete it!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.167.72.3 (talk) 13:56, 29 December 2010 (UTC) their are alot of sources on the internet that call them nu metal.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by I call the big one bitey (talk • contribs) 01:11, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Post-Grunge
I am adding post-grunge to genre and removing nu metal, as the allmusic profile lists the former but not the latter. Nu metal should stay removed unless a reputable source can be found.--Marcus Brute (talk) 20:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Sales
I am so sick of seeing people changing the total number of albums sold to either 17 or 14 million while the total number of albums sold, according to RIAA, is 8.6 million. EternalLies (talk) 18:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Genres
Could we do something with the genres? The section is cluttered as hell. Could someone post the sources for each genre and bring it down to the terms which come up most often? (Sugar Bear (talk) 21:49, 2 February 2010 (UTC))

24 Hour Lock
As it is known, the featured article has it's share of vandalism. I suggest locking it for 24 hours to avoid such vandalism. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 03 October 21:03 (UTC)

Dicksmash
Looks like somebody did a number on this article, a 24 hour lock would probably be a good thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.117.19.68 (talk) 01:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

POV
How the hell did this fanboi-laden prose make it to FA status? There are a number of issues with this article which require addressing via a serious copy-edit from a neutral contributor. One glaring example - in the lede it says that "Godsmack is one of the most popular rock acts in the United States". Most popular? By what measure? Selling 15 mill albums merely puts you in the average bracket. There are many more popular rock acts. The in-line cite is also extremely problematic as it's from a ticket-selling site, so hardly NPOV but, more importantly, the url doesn't say anything about album sales. I'm removing the line. 58.7.137.153 (talk) 02:34, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I made a small ce to one section but this article needs a complete going over by a competent reviewer with decent writing skills, a thorough understanding of grammar, and from a neutral perspective. Frankly, I am astounded that this made it to the front page as it is considerably sub-par. 58.7.137.153 (talk) 02:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

FA? Really?
Firstly, well done to the editors involved on getting this article on to the front page today - it obviously had involved a great deal of work and it's no mean feat to get FA-status, so I'm pleased to see that your efforts paid off. But... For what it's worth, I don' think this article is worthy of FA-status in it's current state. Some examples:
 * The lead section says "The band also has parked a ratified 19 top ten rock radio hits, including 15 songs in the Top Five." - What does this mean? As a native English speaker, I don't understand it.
 * "...have toured with many other large tours and festivals, including supporting its albums with its own arena tours. In the summer of 2009, Godsmack toured as support to Mötley Crüe's Crüe Fest 2 tour." - This isn't interesting or grammatically good enough for the lead section. (Or anywhere in a Featured Article, really).
 * From the Influences and Style section: "Erna's singing style has been stated as "the snarl of James Hetfield", and, "is composed of dark harmony that sounds a lot like Alice in Chains". Merrill's bass style has been described as "bulldozer bottom with occasional slap-bass reverb". Larkin's drumming is thought to "worship at the twin altars of Neil Peart and John Bonham". And Rombola's guitar playing style has been praised as, "guitars that sound like percussion instruments"." - While all these comments appear well-sourced, the prose is not what I'd expect to see in a featured article.

I don't want to be a hater here, and God knows I'm not enough of a skilled editor to take anything I'd been contributing to to FA-status, but really, this one does not make the grade. Apologies. sparkl!sm hey! 14:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The FAC page shows it was promoted in December 2007 with no real criticism, as opposed to most FAC pages nowadays. Erik (talk | contribs) 14:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, obviously the right people weren't aware or didn't care enough to comment. This article might be fine for a music mag (and parts of it sound like they were lifted from one, or at least copied stylistically) but it is not encylcopaedic and certainly way below the level that I would expect for the front page. It needs a serious copy edit from an experienced reviewer to remove the fluff and fix the idiosyncratic grammar. I agree with Greenshed below that general standards with Wikipedia have certainly taken a tumble the last couple of years. 58.7.137.153 (talk) 02:15, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Plus the lead says that they were founded in 1995 and the article is in . Generally, there are way too many articles with basic problems getting on to the front page. Greenshed (talk) 18:29, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Puncuation (someone correct this, please)
The last sentence of the following section ("Sully has said in an interview that the girl on Godsmack their first album is the girl on the "Greed" music video.") is missing two commas or another grammar correction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godsmack#Awake_.282000.E2.80.9302.29 Thanks. -- 93.131.83.180 (talk) 20:10, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, all references to "CD" as in "recording a CD" and similar should be changed to "album". A CD is merely one of many potential formats in which to release a recording. 58.7.137.153 (talk) 02:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Eh?
"The band also has parked a ratified 19 top ten rock radio hits, including 15 songs in the Top Five"

"Parked" seems rather informal language for Wikipedia, the sentence as a whole is very jargony, and I suspect it applies to one country only, but doesn't specify it. --Dweller (talk) 13:29, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Another Typo
Toward the end of the third paragraph: "...they have proven to be one of the highest-grossing Artist's in the United States."

"Artist's" should be "artists", probably better as "musical artists".

 * Wrong apostrophes seem to bloom here. In the paragraph about the "Oracle" album, there's something about "Serenity's" and "Voodo's". Unfortunately, the source is wrong as well, so it might be best to include a "[sic]" here. --D-Frame (talk) 11:26, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

American rock band
Godsmack play hard rock, heavy metal, alternative metal and nu metal. Hard rock isn't part of metal. Hard rock, alternative metal, heavy metal and nu metal all are rock genres. So let's have it say Godsmack are an American rock band from Lawrence, Massachusetts, formed in 1995.

Statik N (talk) 01:30, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Come Together single charting 5 years later.
According to what I've seen so far, the live album Live & Inspired was released in 2012. It charted/peaked on the Mainstream Rock charts in 2017 per here. Why did it chart so much later? I imagine there's some sort of story there, and it should probably be added to the article if anyone knows and has a source, considering there's literally like one sentence about 2017 in the article currently. Sergecross73  msg me  16:30, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, this Billboard feature explains what happened here. Sergecross73   msg me  19:17, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Rock vs. Heavy metal
Rock is better for the lead becuase all of the genres in the infobox are rock in some way. Heavy metal is a form of rock. If we put heavy metal in the lead, it won't cover the fact that they are described as post-grunge and hard rock. Rock is just more broad and covers more than heavy metal. Bowling is life (talk) 16:14, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Agreed. -  FlightTime  ( open channel ) 16:16, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

FA issues
In cleaning up musicianguide.com sources, I found a lot of issues with this FA. It was promoted in 2007, and the nominator has not edited since 2017.

Pinging and, the most frequent editors of this article who are still active.

 * 1) The genres are not sourced in the infobox field. Use of infobox musical artist requires this.
 * 2) Second paragraph of Godsmack (1998-99) is unsourced.
 * 3) Godsmack released a DVD Live, which has been certified Gold by the RIAA... -- run-on sentence and unsourced
 * 4) ...he said in an interview with Loudwire. -- unsourced
 * 5) Several one-sentence paragraphs in 1000hp and When Legends Rise sections; also a lot of "On X, Y happened. On Z, A happened." monotonous prose.
 * 6) I plucked out Musicianguide.com, which has been determined on multiple occasions not to be an RS.
 * 7) Is "Morleyview" a reliable source?
 * 8) There are a lot of WP:PRIMARY sources. Nearly the entire first row of references is archive.org backups of Godsmack's website.
 * 9) Several sources are 404. I also removed one that got domain-squatted, and I can see About.com as well.
 * 10) Last source (Metal Edge 2003) is incomplete.
 * 11) The prose is also very choppy and seems under-detailed for a supposed FA.

(ETA: I see issues with tone were raised as early as 2010.)

As is practice, I am giving the above editors time to address the issues. If they are not addressed within a couple weeks, I will submit this to WP:FAR. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 05:55, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

 * Regarding the first one, genres are sourced in the musical style section of the article. That's how it is usually done. Bowling is life (talk) 06:32, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You're right, I'm thinking of infobox song where genre is mandatory. The other issues still stand. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 06:50, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @TenPoundHammer: Working on getting the issues highlighted in your list addressed. #2, #3, and #4 have been addressed for the most part. I'll see what I can do about #5. As for #7, I've never heard of Morleyview, so I suppose it would be safe to assume that it's not a reliable source. I'll get to the rest of the list sometime this weekend or next week. GSWikiChampion (talk 19:38, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for tending to the issues. Non-primary sources and a copy edit are still desperately needed IMO if this is to stay FA. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:39, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * So far I have fixed the issues with the awards section (the final source being incomplete). I removed the incomplete source and that award because I couldn't find sources for it. I also verified that the musical style and awards sections' sources are working and support the content. The genre sources have also been improved. I'll help out with fixing the history section when I can. Bowling is life (talk) 06:29, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Infobox image change
This seems to be a better picture of the band, but discussion for this change is warranted and needed. - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 22:55, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Godsmack


text:
Talk:Giuoco Piano

First comment
There is an "extra" black knight on square f6 in the picture. Somebody should fix that. - Bryan is Bantman 23:09, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, figured it out and fixed it myself. :) - Bryan is Bantman 23:12, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Guioco Piano (redirect)
While correcting a misspelling elsewhere I noticed that Guioco Piano redirects to this page, making it more likely that that misspelling will be used elswhere. I'm not sure what the best way to handle common misspellings is, but an automatic redirect doesn't seem optimal. If the mistake is common enough to need treatment, it should probably get a little page explaining that it is a misspelling, with the link given there, no? (Total neophyte here.) post added 09:31, 12 May 2005 from 82.228.195.112 (Talk)

 * I don't know how common that misspelling is, but it's clear that I'm doing it all the time. Thanks for pointing this out.  I'm fixing the mistakes I made in Bishop's Opening, Hungarian Defense, and Ponziani Opening.  I made the mistake multiple times in the Bishop's Opening article alone.  Quale 15:23, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

 * This is an old discussion, but I'm not sure which is corect spelling now. The books I've looked at all say "Giuoco Piano", not "Guioco..."; is this an another example of anglo-saxons messing up other peoples languages? And how do you say it? (I'd say "Jzeeohkoh", but thats just me). Moonraker12 11:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Pronounce "joke-oh". The i is there to give the g a soft pronunciation, and is not pronounced separately. Kind of the converse to how English uses u to give g a hard pronunciation in words like "guest". 91.107.148.132 (talk) 15:57, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

 * In Italian, it's pronounced more like English "JAW-co". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.219.179 (talk) 07:46, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

"Guioco" is clearly an error. However, there is a valid spelling variation: Gioco Piano (without the "u"), which is how the name of the opening is spelled in modern standard Italian. However, for some reason, the spelling "giuoco" is overwhelmingly more common in English-language chess literature -- perhaps because the name was imported into English so long ago. - furrykef (Talk at me) 12:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Variations
The Jerome gambit? Seriously? You might as well list all legal moves for White if you are listing this one. I'd recommend it be removed as you'll never see this played by anyone over 1600 FIDE in a tournament game. Your avegare club player would beat a GM who tried this opening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.74.126.147 (talk) 22:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I've re-arranged the text here to make it easier to follow. There's probably a better way to do it, but hopefully this'll do for now. I've not checked the play; it isn't a line in the books I've seen (though they're pretty old books). 194.176.105.40 12:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Why doesn't anyone ever mention the line e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bc4 Bc5 c3 Qf6? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.77.23 (talk) 01:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Because it's an obscure variation. We are not into that level or detail here. 4...Qf6 is played less then 1% of the time in that position. And while Yusapov(?) may of played that move once I can't see any reason to cover 4...Qf6, when 4....Nf6,4...Qe7,4...d6 and 4...Bb6 and all far more common. ChessCreator (talk) 02:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Well then why don't we mention why it's played so infrequently? It's an obvious move without an obvious drawback. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.77.23 (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about the same position? It blocks in the Knight, gives up the possibility of d5, puts the queen on a square where it will likely be attacked by Bg5. According to chessgames.com it's the worse scoring move that's been played more then once in that position. ChessCreator (talk) 00:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but it also prevents d4. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.77.23 (talk) 01:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Italian Game
The page "Italian Game" redirects here; it looks like it was merged in May this year. The books I’ve read make a distinction between the Italian Game and the Giuoco Piano; the Italian Game is all play after 3.Bc4, so includes Two knights Defence (3…Nf6) and the Hungarian Defence (3…Be7) while the Giuoco Piano is just the play after 3…Bc5. This also agrees with the wikibook pages on chess openings. In any event the Giuoco Piano page only discusses play after 3…Bc5, so I was intending to open up the Italian Game page again.Does anyone have any strong objection to this? Moonraker12 12:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * See Talk:Italian Game and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chess/Archive 5. 64.231.242.114 19:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

OK I’ve read the discussion on the link, but I can’t say I’m any closer to an answer to my question.

I accept that the terms Italian Game and Giuoco Piano are often used as synonyms (though different books have it different ways round; is it Italian Game (Giuoco Piano) or G.P (Italian)?) But there’s no consensus, that I can see. Other books do make the distinction, with Italian covering everything after 3.Bc4, and G.P just the play after 3…Bc5 (I’m referring, from memory, to The Italian Game by Harding & Botterill, and Batsford Chess Openings).

And, (second point) one of those sources is WP itself, on the chess pages (Chess openings, Open games) and in Wikibooks (I’ve been doing a bit of work there, but the pages were there already)

The problem (third point) is that if G.P is to be the only page for this, then it is deficient/incomplete as it only contains play after 3…Bc5, and there are no easy links to the Hungarian Defence or the 2 Knights.

The most elegant solution, to my mind, is to have a page like Open games for the Italian Game /3.Bc4, with a diagram, thumbnail sketch and link for each of the main branches. The alternative seems to be to change everything else to fit.

So again, does anyone have any strong objections to me doing that? Moonraker12 13:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't have any objections. Several months ago I tried to clarify whether the Italian Game is the GP, or everything after 3. Bc4, and I was not able to get a definitive answer. I hope you can clear it up.  Bubba73 (talk), 17:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * No objections at all here - go for it, and I'll help where I can.  E LIMINATOR JR  17:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * The Guioco Piano by Gufeld and Stesko says that the GP "is a branch of the Italian Game". In contrast, Italian Game and Evans Gambit by Pinski only gives GP, Evans Gambit, and a short chapter on the "Hungarian and other sidelines". Bubba73 (talk), 17:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Looking back at the old discussion linked above, five of the six references I checked equated Italian with GP, only one included other third moves by Black. Bubba73 (talk), 18:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I also now have another reference - Golombek's Encyclopedia of Chess. It equates the GP and Italian, so my books are six to one in favor of GP (including Evans gambit) = Italian. Bubba73 (talk), 21:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks, I'll have a go at it over the next few days. Do you know, is there any way of looking at the old page? I don't know if it still exists somewhere. Moonraker12 07:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Italian_Game&action=history. If you simply try to go to Italian Game, you'll be redirected to the G.P. page.  You can get to the redirect page itself by clicking on the Italian Game link at the top of the page in the message that tells you you've been redirected. Quale 19:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks; it looks like this isn't the first time this line's been followed. Moonraker12 12:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

 * OK, done; I've left some further comments on the name thing there. Moonraker12 12:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Gioco Piano
Giuoco Piano?, no it's Gioco Piano, Giuoco means nothing. --84.42.196.104 (talk) 15:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

 * That's what I always thought, and my Collins Gem confirms the word is "Gioco" meaning game. Also, Italian Wikipedia describes the opening as Gioco Piano, see http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partita_di_gioco_piano. However, most of the chess references I can find list it as "Guioco Piano". Can someone explain? 82.1.57.47 (talk) 08:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No explanation but an observation that the 'Giuoco Piano' spelling is widespread in other wiki languages.    SunCreator (talk) 21:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, after some research, I can answer my own question. Back in the 17th century, the Italian word for game was "giuoco", but since then it has elided into "gioco". Hence, Italian speakers call the chess opening Gioco Piano, while the rest of the world use the name Giuoco Piano, because that's what it was called when the opening was first explored. Incidentally, it was/is pronounced "ju-ocko"/"jocko" depending on which century you prefer, but definitely NOT "gee-oh-ko". 82.1.57.47 (talk) 20:10, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Also "Guioco". ("In this book the spelling Giuoco (in Giuoco Piano) has been used, but Guioco and Gioco are also seen." Bibliography/Authors Note) --IHTS (talk) 04:43, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I always thought "guioco" was just an error, the "gi" combination represents the "j" sound in Italian so that would make it "gwee-oko" instead of "joko". But then I see even the scholarly Staunton spelled it "guioco". Don't know if any Italian would spell it that way. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:01, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Diagram
The diagram over "Main line (Greco Attack) Position after 7...Nxe4" looks very wrong to me. If this is a diagram of what I think it is, there should not be a black pawn at e5, and there should be a white one at d4. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong position, but in that case the article seems very misleading. Could someone fix this? 24.226.77.23 (talk) 14:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Fixed! Bubba73 (talk), 17:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Alternate line
The article states that 9...Ne5 is interesting, and then gives the line 10.bxc3 Nxc4 11.Qd4 f5 12.Qxc4 d6 as a response. While this is probably correct play for black, it seems to me that 11...Ncd6 is more likely, leading to 12. Qxg7 Qf6 13. Qxf6 Nxf6 14. Re1+ Nfe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. f3 O-O 17. fxe4 Re8 with good play for white. Is this worth mentioning? John Nowak (talk) 12:18, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Piano = quiet ?
I thought the italian word "piano" ment more something like calm !? 83.249.44.130 (talk) 17:20, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

 * It is, Guioco Piano means "quiet game". The 4.d3 lines are quiet, but the others can be pretty wild.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 20:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

 * It is true that "quiet" is not an exact equivalent of the Italian word "piano", which is related to the word "plane" and usually means something like "flat, smooth, level", but in this context the traditional English translation used in reliable sources is "quiet game" so this is what we should be using on wikipedia. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:25, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * No, the correct translation is "plain", which is to say "simple". "Quiet game" is a mis-translation, popularized by English chess books from authors that didn't know Italian.
 * These passed into the internet, mostly through Wikipedia probably, spreading the confusion. You should correct this. 2600:1007:A000:A582:BD5E:7F53:9234:2B78 (talk) 01:16, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

My proposed correction "plain game" was removed. The previous comment (from 2018) talks about reliable sources: I'm not sure what a reliable source is in this context: a very reliable source in chess may well be not-so-reliable in translation. And in fact, "quiet game" simply doesn't convey the meaning of the term, even if it's proposed by dozens of english books (which, crucually, are not italian books). Specifically: "piano" is either an adverb or an adjective. When it's an adverb, it means "quietly" (not "quiet"), "slowly", "gently" etc. When it's an adjective it means "flat" or "simple", "easy", "plain", but never means "quiet". I know that the classical music terminology tradition adds to the confusion, but again, as an adjective, "piano" doesn't mean "quiet". Now: in "Giuoco piano", "piano" is an adjective and not an adverb (the opposite would be funny, to italian speakers (like myself)), and its meaning is not "quiet". Lastly: the adjective "piano" also means "regular", "normal" as opposed to any kind of variant or complication, which is exactly the meaning the current footnote n.1 points to (no gambits).--Giulio.t (talk) 16:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

 * The origin of the opening itself, as well as the origin of its name, are from about the beginning of the 16th century. Can anyone determine what the meaning of "giuoco piano" was at that time?  I know that the meanings of words shift over the course of hundreds of years.
 * Wikipedia is not an independent authority. We are obliged to follow the usage of existing authorities, and especially English-language authorities, in the naming of the openings.  See WP:OR and WP:RS. Bruce leverett (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * If you do give a translation, alongside the official name, it's a matter of linguistics, not of chess. If the wikipedia principle is to stick to authorities, fine, but you need to choose the right ones. English-language chess authorities are not italian language aurhorities (and I'd argue they probably have little-to-no expertise in the field) so by the same principle their translation doesn't deserve to be spread worldwide by wikipedia. Why not remove it?
 * As for the meaning shift: yes, someone can determine what "piano" used to mean in the 16th century. Giulio.t (talk) 17:35, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * For jargon use of "piano" in that era, you can look to music. For an English translation of "piano", look at Dynamics (music) or consider fortepiano. Quale (talk) 07:35, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems likely that the translation traditionally given in English chess literature ("quiet game") is inaccurate and something like "plain game" (i.e. a non-gambit) would be more accurate. Yes "piano" translates as "quiet" in the context of music, but maybe this isn't the correct translation in the context of chess. Nevertheless "quiet game" is what the English language sources say. If we can find a source discussing the original Italian meaning we can cite this, writing something like "while traditionally translated as 'quiet game' in English, the original means was.... ". Until then we're stuck with "quiet game", which is what the English language RS's say. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 09:58, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * No, you can't. First: jargon is field-specific, by definition. Second: on a music page, "piano" means "play quietly". It's an adverb. In "Giuoco piano", it's of course an adjective, and that has a different meaning. Giulio.t (talk) 12:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to find a good solution that acknowledges the original meaning of the Italian phrase. I've found The Oxford English Dictionary, which gives the literal translation as "plain game" and cites Sarratt (1813) at the internet archive. This is the Sarratt citation. Among the 18th century Italian players who used the term "Giuoco Piano" are Salvio, Lolli and Ponziani, all of which can be found at google books or internet archive. Salvio may well have been the originator of the term. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 08:20, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * As others have pointed out, in this context "piano" means "plain", not "quiet". "Piano" only means "quiet(ly)" as an adverb, not as an adjective. You should really fix it, Wikipedia should not contribute to propagate errors. It's not even a traditional translation or anything like that., just an error made in some English language chess books that happened to be the ones you consulted. 2600:1007:A024:F16B:DD:4707:CCD5:C37 (talk) 01:53, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * As pointed out above by User:Quale, "piano" means "quiet" as an adjective in music; see Dynamics (music). Bruce leverett (talk) 03:31, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * First of all, there is no special italiano for music. Secondly, no it does not. It means "quietly", as an adverb, because the various "piano" "forte" etc. are commands addressed to the conductor, or the player. So "piano" means "play [this part] quietly".
 * Fix this thing, everyone playing chess and speaking English keeps repeating this error, likely based on this wikipedia page, itself based on a random book whose author just didn't bother learning Italian properly. 2600:1007:A001:67C2:CD40:AD55:975C:A8C5 (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation
In Italian, 'giuoco' would be pronounced as (juoko) (as noted above, the modern word for 'play' is gioco instead of giuoco). This article says that it would be pronunciated as 'choko'. Is this an error, or is this the way this loan-word is actually pronounced in English? (I assume 'piano' is pronounced like the name of the music instrument and not like the original Italian word.) Anyway, 'choko' now links to the IPA symbols but does not use them. In IPA, that would be. Bever (talk) 00:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

 * The pronunciation element was introduced by this post. I think it would be an improvement if you boldly change it to what you think is right (or to even what you think is "best guess" what is right!). Ok, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:43, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not the whole truth that "giuoco" is pronounced [dʒuoko] in Italian. Italians spelled it "guioco" and pronounced it [dʒoko] for a very long time before they adopted the modern spelling, and the old spelling remained an acceptable alternative until well into the 20th century. In terms of how should you pronounce it in English as the name of a chess opening, which is the question for this article, well I think the article should offer both alternatives. In practice [dʒoko] is common, and the users of it can point to modern Italian to justify it as no kind of mistake. The difficulty is citing an authoritative source, and unfortunately chess authors tend to lack strength in linguistics. Choko or [tʃoko], on the other hand, is a mistake.
 * Doubtless many people do pronounce "piano" like the name of the the musical instrument, but that is also a mistake. Ivan Viehoff (talk) 16:52, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Pianissimo
The comments on this section are suddenly looking dated. It seems like I am seeing this line in all the super-GM tournaments, usually with the move order 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3. Not sure where to start in updating it. Bruce leverett (talk) 03:10, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 is arguably the main line these days, but it can also be reached by 4.d3 Nf6 5.c3. The pianissimo proper is 4.d3 Nf6 5.Nc3 I think. The other fork is whether white plays b4 and chases the bishop or just plays Bb3-c2 Ruy Lopez style, which seems to be the modern GM practice. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 03:35, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Anyway the reason I had a section for 5.d4 is that I was planning to create a corresponding section for 5.d3. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 03:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That makes sense but it said 4.d4 and was in the wrong place, wrong level of heading, etc. Sometimes nothing goes right.  Bruce leverett (talk) 20:01, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Italian Game (revisited)
From the lead: The name "Italian Game" is used by some authors (Pinski 2005:5); however, that name is also used to describe all openings starting 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4, including 3...Nf6 (the Two Knights Defence) and other less common replies. That is absolutely true. But so far this text has been stated in the context of an explanatory or informational aside rather than as an alternate id name for the topic. If we want to do the latter, then we'll need to make in bold (Italian Game) rather than the current quotes ("Italian Game") and add as synonym in the Infobox. But see p.p.s. below. --IHTS (talk) 07:01, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

p.s. In addition to Pinski as above, Harding & Botterill's book The Italian Game does the same (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4; covering Giuoco Piano, Evans Gambit, Two Knights Defence, Hungarian Defence). Meanwhile, Hopper & Whyld have no entry for Italian Game. --IHTS (talk) 07:15, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

p.p.s. And there is already article Italian Game. --IHTS (talk) 07:20, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I think Hooper & Whyld are in the minority here. Do we have any other references for "Italian Opening"? I don't think I've seen that name used anywhere else.  It's interesting that Hooper & Whylde do not give a name to the position after 3.Bc4.  This is probably an accurate reflection of the common terminology in 1984 when the fist edition was published.
 * There are already two references in the article for the name "Italian Game":
 * and in my library there are also
 * | pages=129}}
 * Quale (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * | pages=129}}
 * Quale (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Quale (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Quale (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Quale (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Quale (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Quale (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Quale (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Quale (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

 * I w/ agree w/ all of that. (Even my Harding & Botterill book, p. 1, first para, states after 3...Bc5: "Thus begins the Italian Game, or Giuoco Piano, proper.") The problem here is, as mentioned, we already have article Italian Game, and since OCC H&W has heretofore generally been considered a "Bible" re authority/RS by WP:CHESS, it was a handy and justifiable way to differentiate. So with that gone, how do you propose to differentiate (naming Giuoco Piano also Italian Game, when 3.Bc4 is presumably properly already identified as Italian Game), to avoid general readership confusion? (E.g. the current Italian Game article has this hatnote: "For the Italian Opening, see Giuoco Piano." My presumption is when a name is presented in bold in article lead, it implies an alternative article id suitable for a REDIRECT.) Cheers, --IHTS (talk) 06:38, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think the article needs a hatnote. A hat would be appropriate if Italian Game was a redirect to this article, but it isn't.  The two usages of "Italian Game" are explained adequately both in this article and at Italian Game.   Quale (talk) 04:30, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Right. Agree w/ the current two article statuses. --IHTS (talk) 04:47, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Giuoco Piano


text:
Talk:Descent: FreeSpace – The Great War

Unattributed Quotes
Large portions of this entry, such as the racial descriptions, are copied directly from the in-game narration in FS2. Frankie

The Shivan Manifesto Is Not Canon
Changed the Shivan entry to reflect this. Fan fiction and theorization should be marked as such. Jal-18 from HLP

Comments on chapter 'History'

 * there was an official Amiga port of 'FreeSpace - The Great War' by Hyperion Entertainment (http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz:8080/amiga)

Small Correction
Fixed the Shiva reference. He's not actually a god of creation, but of regeneration. - Nickoten

Release Date Source
http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/data/188670.html

title: Talk:Descent: FreeSpace – The Great War


title: User:64.12.116.74


text:
Pine Creek, Northern Territory

Pine Creek is a small town in the Katherine region of the Northern Territory, Australia and is situated just off the Stuart Highway; it is 90kms north of Katherine. As at the 2021 Census there were 318 residents of Pine Creek, which is the fourth largest town between Darwin and Alice Springs.

The Wagiman, Jawoyn Bolmo, Matjba and Wurrkbarbar groups are the Traditional Owners if this area and, since 2019, they have held exclusive Native Title rights over this land.

In 2005 a prominent resident of Pine Creek, Edward Ah Toy, was recognised as the Northern Territorian of the year.

History
Pine Creek is one of the oldest towns in the Northern Territory and it is named for the pine trees that once grew by the creek in the centre of the town and although it was originally and officially called Playford, it was never known by this name and it was officially changed to Pine Creek on 20 September 1973. Of the name SW Herbert wrote:

"'We setled down in our new camp at Pine Creek, since well known throughout Australia, first on account of its being a rich gold field, and years later as the inland terminus of our only railway on the north coast. This creek is by no means large, but was remarkable for pines growing there, thus the name of Pine Creek.'."

By 1875 there were two hotels, The Royal Mail and The Standard, competing for business. A public school opened in the town in 1899. By the 1890s, up to 15 mines were operating in the area, and the town's population exceeded 3000 people.

The towns population fluctuated significantly in its early years and declined significantly in the interwar period; one of the few developments in this period was the establishment of the short lived Pine Creek Home between 1931 - 1933; it was briefly reopened in the early war years 1940 - 1941 as a place were children who were being transferred from government institutions to church missions.

Mining
Immediately after the construction of the Overland Telegraph Line in 1872 gold was discovered at the Eleanour Reef at Pine Creek by Wentworth D'Arcy Uhr. There is an alternative story in which it was Darwent & Dalwood who found gold while digging holes for the telegraph line and that the government did not wish to publicise the discovery as they did not want the 'distraction' of a gold rush, despite this, the discovery by Uhr is the more widely accepted version. News of this discovery spread quickly and, by January 1873, 23 mining claims had been taken up and resulted in the creation of the township. It was here that the Northern Territory's first stamp battery was constructed in July 1873.

Chinese miners, mostly from the Kwangtung Province, began arriving in Pine Creek in 1874 and 176 of these were indentured by the South Australian government. In 1877, following the discovery of substantial alluvial gold deposits they began arriving in great numbers. In 1879 a Chinatown was established and the population reached its peak of 900 people. However, this mining boom was short-lived as, by 1882, only 80 miners remained and by 1886 it was virtually inactive.

The boom restarted following the completion of the North Australia Railway to the area in 1889 when many of the Chinese laborer's who had been employed on its construction, approximately 3,000 in total, settled in Pine Creek; this included Ah Hong who remained there for a short time. The population of the town in 1894 was 753 Chinese people and 39 'Europeans'. The Chinese migrants, like Aboriginal people, suffered experiences of racism but the traffic of opium, the impact of intensive mining and unequal relationships with Aboriginal women (in which many men did not claim their paternity of children) are methods that parallel with European impacts on Aboriginal people's lives.

There was a cycle of economic growth and decline at Pine Creek but, by 1915. approximately 75,000 ounces (over 2,000 kgs) of gold had been mined there. There is evidence of a thriving Chinese community at Pine Creek until the late 1920s, during The Great Depression which was, soon after, followed by the evacuation of the entire civilian population during World War II and following the Bombing of Darwin and production ceased.

Mining began again, near the town, between 1967 and 1974 where iron ore was mined at Frances Creek, about 25 kilometres north. During this time approximately 6 million tonnes of ore were extracted. In June 2007, Territory Resources (trading under the name Territory Iron) commenced mining iron ore and gold there. In October 2014, the mine was used for filming an episode of the BBC television program Top Gear. The mine ceased operations in January 2015, after a drop in the price of iron ore, leading to the departure of many local employees. In April 2020, it was announced that mining would resume in May 2020, after a 5-year hiatus.

Also, in 1985, Pine Creek Goldfields Limited opened an open-cut gold mine adjacent to the town, on the site of an old shaft mine. Over a ten-year period, it yielded 764,000 oz of gold. Since closure, its main pit has been filled with water to prevent acid build-up. A lookout is located at the south-western end of Moule Street.

North Australia Railway
The first stage of the lightly built narrow-gauge North Australia Railway was built between Port Darwin and Pine Creek, reaching the town in 1889. Additional sidings were added to the rail yards in 1914 in preparation for the extension of the line south to Emungalan (Katherine), which opened in 1917. An unsealed road was constructed in the 1930s, following the same route as the railway from Adelaide River to Larrimah, and passing through Pine Creek. Much of this poorly maintained road would later become the Stuart Highway.

The railway closed in 1976. The old Pine Creek railway station (1888) and some rolling stock remained and were preserved as the Pine Creek Railway Precinct; Commonwealth Railways steam locomotive NF5, built in 1877, was restored to operational condition in 2001.

The North Australia Railway's standard-gauge successor, completed in 2004 between Alice Springs and Darwin – part of the Adelaide–Darwin rail corridor – is used by heavy freight trains and the experiential tourism train, The Ghan; it passes 400 m east of the town.

World War II
During World War II, the Australian Army set up 65th Australian Camp Hospital near Pine Creek. The Pine Creek Airfield, initially a civilian airfield, was extended between May and July 1942 by the US Army 808th Engineer Aviation Battalion as an emergency landing ground and to serve the military units based in the town. The 43rd Engineer Regiment, of the US Army, with help from the 808th and, later, the Allied Works Council also constructed the nearby MacDonald Airfield (originally known as Burkholder Field). Unlike many Top End towns, Pine Creek was not bombed by the Japanese during the war, although Japanese reconnaissance aircraft are reported to have overflown the town on at least one occasion.

It was also during the war years that sealed, all weather sections of the Stuart Highway were constructed, providing transport alternatives to the railway. Work on the road was completed in this area by 1944.

Heritage places
The following places are listed on the Northern Territory Heritage Register:

 * 1) Pine Creek Bakery
 * 2) Pine Creek Post Office and Repeater Station
 * 3) North Australia Railway (NAR) remnants at Pine Creek
 * 4) Old Pine Creek Butchery
 * 5) Old Playford Club Hotel
 * 6) Old Bonrook Station Homestead
 * 7) Pine Creek Railway Precinct, including a railway museum.

title: Pine Creek, Northern Territory


text:
Talk:Salvador de Madariaga

Untitled
From User:Cumbey(elsewhere on wikipedia):THERE WERE SOLANA FAMILY CONNECTIONS WITH HAILE SELASSIE WHICH ARE DOCUMENTED BY SALVADOR DE MADARIAGA IN HIS BOOK MORNING WITHOUT NOON. I would love to know more?--SqueakBox 23:11, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Salvador de Madariaga