text:
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Sam Spade/Detective agency

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was keep. - Mailer Diablo 03:26, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

User:Sam Spade/Detective agency

 * VfD should not be the place to discuss WikiProjects. Instead, if you think we should (or should not) have a policy on inappropriate projects, please join the general discussion on Wikiproject/Inappropriate projects.

While it may be unorthodox to list a user sub-page for deletion, I believe that this page and the so-called "organization" or "agency" it promotes violate the spirit of Wikipedia. The introduction reads:

Welcome to the Sam Spade detective agency

Our goal is to provide top-notch investigative service to our clients, promote justice and discourage corruption, and to combine our efforts as effectively as possible. We collect data regarding dubious persons and circumstances, and put them to good use at the appropriate time and place. Those wishing to be public members may contact me on the talk page. Those wishing to remain confidential may contact me by email or IM.

Recent discussion has deplored the increasing pseudo-legal language being used on various Wikipedia pages, and this takes it way beyond the limit. Exploding Boy 23:20, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep as it is a user page. If this organisation does anything that violates the spirit of wikipedia then it should be dealt with at the appropriate time and place. Right now this page is not doing any harm, and can be considered part of Sam Spade's wiki work, --SqueakBox 23:25, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep It is a useful concept and it's in the user's own space! — Davenbelle 23:30, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

Comment. Deleting this page will not delete the agency. Sam has been open about his project, and it is being monitored. if this page goes there is no way to monitor what the agency will do, which I think would be a bad thing. If people want to stop his agency here is not the place to do it, and as long as his agency is legitimate then this page should be too. I urge those who want to stop his agency to go through the proper procedure and debate it in the proper forums, then put a Vfd here, --SqueakBox 18:08, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Any unofficial, unsanctioned, ad hoc organization that seeks as it's stated goal to collect "evidence" of other editors that they consider "dubious" for later use in actions like RFC/RFAR smacks of witch hunts, is antithetical to wikipedia's spirit, will have a chilling effect on the free exchange of ideas that Sam & crew deem "dubious," and will lend itself to abuses in the form of vexatious litigation, malicious prosecution, etc. Consider the group's statement of purpose: "We collect data regarding dubious persons and circumstances, and put them to good use at the appropriate time and place." This there anything that more utterly violates the spirit of wikipedia? Taken with Sam's recent history of frivolous actions these new efforts to amass evidence prior to any specific charges and recruiting others to do the same on his behalf show Sam to be little more than a vexatious and mendacious litigant looking to expand his reach and scope. Furthermore, the fact that this is a privately organized effort directed at selected individuals will heavily discount the value of any "evidence" this group obtains and presents, and will cast serious doubt on the motive of any subsequent action that Sam or any of the crew that he assembles are party to. Vexatious and malicious prosecution are serious concerns at wikipedia and far too common, and this sort of experiment lends itself to barratry quite easily. That concern is justified here considering this organization is being instituted and promoted by an individual who has an extensive history of  litigation, bad behavior , side-stepping policies&, and refusing to atone for his misdeeds when caught  here at wikipedia.--FeloniousMonk 02:50, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, this article goes against the spirit of good editing and conduct on Wikipedia. If you have a problem with a user it should be taken up with admin, not a "detective agency". Megan1967 07:18, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I suppose you mean, with a mediator; dispute resolution is not an admin task. dab (ᛏ) 11:45, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * How about with an AMA advocate, of which I am one, which has arbcom & community sanction. This user page falls under my duties there, as clarified by myself here, and the AMA coordinator here. Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 14:34, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, highly inappropriate user page. Radiant_* 07:26, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Is vfd really the place to discuss user pages? Wouldn't Rfc, arbitration, mediation or some other process be superior? Making this decision was not the purpose behind vfd. Meelar (talk) 07:28, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete. 'Delete' because I think that it is against the spirit of Wikipedia, and, frankly, because SS's editing and Talk-page history makes him one of the last people I'd trust with something like this.  'Weak' because it is his User space (though there are still conditions of use), and because I doubt that it would do anything but become (at most) a mild irritant. Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 08:40, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - I'm not a big fan of this page or of its creator, but it is in userspace, and I don't believe that VfD is the appropriate forum for questionable userspace content like this. This concern should go to RFC or, if necessary, arbitration. Firebug 09:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * comment quite a bleak example of wikilawyering. This sort of activism is certainly not welcome, dispute resolution is a necessary evil, and not the point of Wikipedia. It is in user space, however, and I trust that the community will react appropriately to such attempts, regardless whether it be "professional" wikilawyering or "amateur" wikilawyering. If it is considered disruptive, the arbcom should deal with it, not vfd. dab (ᛏ) 10:16, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Agree with Meelar, Firebug and dab. VfD is only for articles, things that matter to our readers, not to decide what particular user pages are (not) in violation of Wikipedia's community spirit/conduct policies. Take it to RfC or RfAr. This page can be deleted if Sam Spade slaps a speedy tag on it or if the ArbCom tells him to take it down. VfD has been flooded with user sub-pages recently; I don't like this trend one bit. JRM 11:51, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)
 * How exactly is it flooded? I've seen two user pages on VfD in the past month. Radiant_* 14:32, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * This is called "unfounded hyperbole", and it works quite well as long as people don't counter it with facts. Stricken. I still don't like it, though. VfDs on articles and VfDs on user pages are completely different things. JRM 15:10, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)
 * In addition, if consensus should be we do decide this sort of thing on VfD, I'd like that to be said more explicitly. Current discussions are bogged down by questions of legitimacy, so I don't think we can rely on "we'll figure it out as we go along" anymore—especially considering Sam's diatribe below. Do we really want this sort of in-fighting to bloat VfD? JRM 12:13, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)
 * Delete. Though it's on his userspace, it's still on Wikipedia, and is inappropriate and against the spirit of the 'pedia. Agree with FeloniousMonk's comments above. — Asbestos | Talk 11:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Removed my vote after reading comments below. Still think it's against the spirit of the community, but deleting this would amount to censorship. It's his userpage. — Asbestos | Talk 13:09, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Spurious WP:POINT, read Deletion_policy and User page. Voters might be interested in EB's long history of harassment against myself ever since I voted against featured article status for gay bathhouse. This flagrant misuse of VfD by an admin will not be ignored. Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 12:07, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * No personal attacks please. Radiant_* 14:32, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Just to note, user subpages may indeed be listed on WP:VfD. User page, where vfd is listed as the approved method of requesting a user subpage be deleted. — Asbestos | Talk 12:18, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Seems to be quite old, too. But this should be listed in the deletion policy as well, then. JRM 12:32, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)
 * It is. Problem with page: Inappropriate user page.  Solution: Talk to the user; if that doesn't work, come back here.  Problem with page: Inappropriate user pages in excessive or stubborn cases.  Solution: List on Votes for deletion. —Korath (Talk) 12:54, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * You know, I should really sit down and read stuff sometimes. Aside from wasting people's time, it would make me look like less of an idiot, which is nice too. Alternatively, don't try editing Wikipedia when you're busy with other stuff. In my defense: what you're quoting is in a table headed "Problems that don't require deletion", which is probably why I missed it in my fly-by skimming. It should be under "problems that might require deletion". :-) Thanks to Asbestos and Korath. JRM 13:06, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)
 * How about "Problems that might not require deletion"? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 13:40, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * According to the pages (as Sam mentions, below) the "proper channels" do not appear to have been followed. I think this VfD is spurious, and not called for at this point in time.  It's also amusing that the note says "After you've been here for a year or so, and written lots of great articles, the community may be more inclined to let you get away with it" good thing Sam hasn't been here for a year and hasn't written many articles, huh?  Guettarda 14:46, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually I have, but who cares about the letter and the spirit of the rules when your busy trying to burn someone your holding a grudge against, eh? Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 15:45, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * as a note, EB hasn't discussed the matter with me whatsoever, so this couldn't apply as an inappropriate user page VfD. Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 14:29, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - the page is Useful, and if people have been using it, it deserves to stay. Besides, it's his own space. He should be able to use it for whatever he wants. I think as long as he doesn't advertise it on other pages, it should be fine--Zeerus 14:36, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * He does, however, advertise it on other pages . Radiant_* 15:05, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - on proceedural grounds. See my comment above.  Guettarda 14:46, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, User sub-pages are a good place to keep this kind of thing. It's where you have some policy or idea that you're still polishing. In fact it's an excellent idea, procedure wise at least. (And Sam Spade, stop cribbing ideas from the WP:AMI page :-P, you are definately capable of better than that! Read the comments here (especially the negative ones) and improve your concept!) Kim Bruning 15:12, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment - I am disappointed with the tone of the page, and can certainly see the potential for abuse. On the other hand, I would rather see any organizations like this to be out in the open and not hidden in back channels or completely off the Wikipedia. I agree with several of the people who have said that this nomination is (currently) inappropriate for a VfD vote. If it does look like the organization is living up to my worst fears, then it should be handled through WP:RFC and WP:RFAR and not WP:VFD. For the purposes of voting, count this as a very, very weak keep. Blank Verse  ∅  15:17, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. (1) User pages are generally free to have whatever content you want.  I know plenty of people who have frivolous content and even anti-wikipedia sentiment on their User pages.  (2) How is this "agency" any different from letting people contact you on your talk page about issues they want your help with.  People do that to me all the time.  All Sam is doing is creating a separate page for it and adding a little more organization.  Perfectly fine. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 17:55, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. There is nothing wrong with someone conducting investigations, many users probably do, at least Sam is being open about it. It is a user sub page and compared to many user subpages that are maintained this one does not merit deletion. Regarding starting any kind of "organization" as far as laws and concepts regarding "freedom of association" are concerned I do not think that "we" could stop such a move by Sam and his friends if we tried. Or let's call it Totalitaripedia, not Wikipedia. — ©   Alex756   21:48, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Move to Wikipedia namespace and make it a public organization. Run it in the same way as other voluntary and unofficial organizations, as was (eventually) done with a group that had rather similar aims and methods. That should keep potential abuse well in check—but would make it redundant with at least two other groups. Or: Leave it alone, watch it carefully, and publicize its actions well. Let it stand or fall on its own merits. Perhaps it will acquire a reputation as a stalwart defender of the bullied and downtrodden. Perhaps it will acquire a reputation for bullying and treading down. Perhaps no-one will use it and it will fade into obscurity. Who can say? —Charles P. (Mirv) 00:05, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Association of Member Investigations already exists in the Wikipedia namespace. What would be different about this one? — Asbestos | Talk 00:41, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. sheer nonsense vfd of a user subpage directly applicable to the project.  absolutely no policy justification for the vfd.  seems the cabal fears investigation might bring their misbehavior to light:(.  Ungtss 14:16, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep out of User pages unless there is actually a problem. - RoyBoy 800 16:14, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep So far I don't see Sam Spade doing anything illegal with that page. I also find it disgusting that we are here to defend a USER PAGE. Have a life! -- Toytoy 15:05, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. Sam's user space is his own business, as long as he isn't doing anything illegal or wildly offensive therein. I would, though, encourage Sam to remove the link from his signature, or at least make it shorter. BLANKFAZE | (что??) 21:06, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Comment. I'm not sure on the page, but the actions describe within should be examined and rebuked if they make Wikipedia a less open and community-based system. Tabs should be kept to make sure this group doesn't get out of line or becomes some sort of police force for Wikipedia, but I don't think the userpage is all that significant until that occurs. If this little detective agency moves forward and violates the community, then my vote becomes a vote to delete.

 * Keep Is in user space - sets dangerous precedent to delete a user advocacy group because we may disagree with their POV. Trödel| talk I have read some more and now feel strongly keep - while I disagree with Sam on many things and think that his behavior at times has been confrontational at best, to delete a page in a user's space that is a voluntary effort sets a bad precedent. The group is open in its conduct and all can see what is going on - in our age, witch hunts are equally liable to result in exposing the hunters as the hunted. Do not let your disagreement with Sam drive your decision - if another user like say User:SlimVirgin or User:Tony Sidaway had done this would you still vote the same way - I would. Trödel| talk  18:22, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep An excellent idea that has, like so many other previous ideas, come under the destructive lense of the cabal that enjoys ridding wikipedia of any and all articles that do not fit into their collectively narrow POV. --Da 'Sco Mon 01:51, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep biatches. SamSpade is a good man FIGHTING against the JEWISH cabal. So a STRONG keep. YEAHHHHHHHHHH. I wanna join this detective agency and help take down you LIBERAL FREAKS but I dont even know if Im cool enough to be accepted by Mr. Spade. - DA CHILD -SmarterChild3 17:28, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * -P.S. I am NOT Sam Spade. -SmarterChild3 17:29, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Comments like this make me rethink my intended principled stand Trödel| talk 18:52, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * P.S. If this detective agency is a disguised version of attack Stormfront tried to organize in February, I will change my vote and lobby all the keeps above to do the same Trödel| talk 18:56, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Apparently you havn't heard of black propoganda or the misuse of power words. Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 12:32, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Just making my position clear: the decision shouldn't be based on ideas we don't like; however, disrupting wikipedia to prove a point is a valid reason to delete the page. Trödel| talk 15:04, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm, looks like we need to write an article on Black Propoganda (hey, wouldn't that be more productive than trying to delete my user pages? Just a thought..). To help you out:

 * "Propaganda can be classified according to the source. White propaganda comes from an openly identified source. Black propaganda pretends to be from a friendly source, but is actually from an adversary. Gray propaganda pretends to be from a neutral source, but comes from an adversary"

 * Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 12:36, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep. Even though the page arguably goes against the spirit of Wikipedia, until actual harm is demonstrated, users should have leeway regarding their own user pages. Wmahan. 16:59, 2005 Apr 15 (UTC)

 * Keep until there's a real demonstrable reason to delete it. So far there's no actual harm shown, merely dislike. Wesley 17:06, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Speedy keep; spurious listing. Fascist restriction of user pages should not be a goal of Wikipedia.  ‣ᓛᖁ  [[Image:Venus symbol (blue).gif|♀]] [ ᑐ ] 22:36, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Suggested procedure

 * Checking edit histories, I must conclude that Exploding hasn't contacted Sam about this page, before listing it on VfD. It therefore seems proper to close this VfD, give Exploding the time to contact Sam, and then have Exploding start a new VfD if he deems it necessary. This does sound needlessly bureaucratic, and seems unlikely to actually help. Indeed, this VfD seems likely to end in 'no consensus' either way.
 * Therefore, the best solution seems to be to take the matter to RfC - that applies to both (and separately) the alleged conflicts between Sam and Exploding, and any disputes regarding existence of a detective agency on WP.
 * Radiant_* 15:05, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * That seems to be the right thing to do. Alright, I agree, and 'second the motion' to move to RFC. Are there any opposed? Kim Bruning 15:18, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fine. Let's cut out the needless bureaucracy: Sam, what's the deal with this page? It seems highly inappropriate and I'm concerned also that you're advertising it on other pages as well as embedding it in your user name whenever you sign a post. I have no desire to antagonise you; I would have listed a similar page started by any user, because this type of "organisation" is, in my view, completely anathema to the spirit of Wikipedia and has vast potential for causing problems. Please seeFeloniousMonk's comments for a much better analysis than I've provided here of why such a page and such an organization is totally inappropriate here. Exploding Boy 18:27, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

You can't ban an organisation with a Vfd. If you want to stop Sam's agency find a legitimate way of doing so, --SqueakBox 18:31, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

 * Comment: User:Radiant! has pointed out to me that VfD can indeed apply to userspace pages. Nonetheless, I will retain my prior vote. If VfD is to be utilized in userspace, it should only be applied in the most egregious cases. I'm not convinced this qualifies. Firebug 20:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the word detective is putting people off, --SqueakBox 00:59, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * But we're talking Sam Spade. The opportunity is too good to miss. JRM 01:17, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
 * But we're also talking User:Sam_Spade as well. It's the agency organizer's history of shabby behavior, litigiousness , and cynical policy manipulations , not the agency's name that's the cause of concern for some here. --FeloniousMonk 05:05, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * If your concern is with the organizer, the proper forum is a request for comment, mediation, or arbitration. We may allow deletion of user subpages, but we don't have votes to delete users. --Michael Snow 06:47, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I have never suggested we vote to delete any user. That Sam has avoided RFC, RFM, and RFAr for his insulting behavior is only because I chose to give him a chance to atone on his own without being compelled to. That he's responded the way he has is clearly his choice. All I've advocated here is that an unsanctioned police group operating out of a userspace and hence having total control over what is and isn't allowed to be said and presented is a powerful tool that is a temptation to misuse even by the most ethical of editors, and as such it should not be permitted to exist in a userspace, but if it is, then it should be heavily monitored. And judging by his recent antics in limiting the speech of those being investigated at User_talk:Sam_Spade/Detective_agency, keeping tabs on them is clearly justified, as well as my concern here. FeloniousMonk 18:01, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


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Trešnjevka

Trešnjevka is a neighborhood of Zagreb, Croatia. Forming one of the city's inner neighborhoods, it is located in the city's southwestern area. At approximately 15.67 km2 in area and a population of slightly over 121,000, it is one of the most densely populated areas of the country.

It is administratively divided into two districts:
 * Trešnjevka - sjever (Trešnjevka - north)
 * Including the neighbourhoods (mjesni odbori) of: Stara Trešnjevka, Ljubljanica, Rudeš, Voltino, Pongračevo etc.
 * Trešnjevka - jug (Trešnjevka - south)
 * Including the neighbourhoods (mjesni odbori) of: Knežija, Horvati, Srednjaci, Jarun, Staglišće, Gredice, Vrbani, Rudeš etc.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Trešnjevka


text:
User:Joewithajay

I'm Jo - I pop up occasionally to say things.

title: User:Joewithajay


text:
Layer cake

A layer cake (US English) or sandwich cake (UK English) is a cake consisting of multiple stacked sheets of cake, held together by frosting or another type of filling, such as jam or other preserves. Most cake recipes can be adapted for layer cakes; butter cakes and sponge cakes are common choices. Frequently, the cake is covered with icing, but sometimes, the sides are left undecorated, so that the filling and the number of layers are visible.

Popular flavor combinations include German chocolate cake, red velvet cake, Black Forest cake, and carrot cake with cream cheese icing. Many wedding cakes are decorated layer cakes.

In the mid-19th century, modern cakes were first described in English. Maria Parloa's Appledore Cook Book, published in Boston in 1872, contained one of the first layer cake recipes. Another early recipe for layer cake was published in Cassell's New Universal Cookery Book, published in London in 1894.

Older forms
Whereas in modern layer cakes, layers are generally baked to a height of around 2 in and split horizontally, another method of preparing cake layers is used for cakes like Dobos torte and Prinzregententorte: The cake batter is baked in seven or eight separate thin layers, about a half-inch thick each in the finished stack. These layers are then covered with a thin layer of cream and/or jam and stacked. This stack, which is the same height as the typical Western layer cake, is then frosted so that the structure is not visible. At first glance, these cakes look much like a German konditorei style cake such as the Black Forest cake.

An example for a European layer cake invented in 1735 is the Frankfurter Kranz (Frankfurt Crown Cake) which consists of two or three layers of sponge cake filled with jam and buttercream frosting, and then frosted with more buttercream.

The French term gâteau is used for a cake in France, and in the UK it means a layer cake. It is also used for some types of pastry-based desserts like the Gâteau Basque.

Comparison
Layer cakes typically serve multiple people, so they are larger than cupcakes, petits fours, or other individual pastries. A common layer cake size, which is baked in nine-inch round cake pans, typically serves about 16 people, but there is some variation. Some recipes suggest larger pieces with as few as 10 servings for a double-layer cake, and others expect 24 servings. Much smaller pieces, with as many as 32 servings for a nine-inch round layer cake, are common for wedding cake.

Unlike the Vietnamese Bánh da lợn or Swiss rolls, layer cake is assembled from several separate pieces of cake. A sheet cake can become a layer cake if it is cut into pieces and reassembled with frosting or other filling to form layers.

Examples

 * Black Forest gateau, a chocolate layer cake filled with whipped cream and cherries
 * Blackout cake, a chocolate layer cake named after the wartime blackouts
 * Boston cream pie, which, despite the name, is a yellow layer cake filled with pastry cream and topped with chocolate frosting
 * Buckwheat gateau from northern Germany
 * Doberge cake, a New Orleans version of the Hungarian Dobos torte
 * German chocolate cake, an American cake usually baked as a layer cake
 * Hummingbird cake, an American spice cake often baked as a layer cake
 * Lane cake, from the Southern United States
 * Medovik, honey-flavored cake with many layers
 * Sarawak layer cake from Malaysia
 * Spekkoek from Indonesia
 * Stack cake from the United States
 * Washington pie, a jam-filled cake from the United States

title: Layer cake


text:
Talk:Finasteride

Adverse Effects section - exposure and pregnancy
I wish to propose an addition to the Adverse Effects section. For the comment on contraindication in pregnancy I think it could be improved. The current text is:

Finasteride is contraindicated in pregnancy.[36][37] The Food and Drug Administration advises that donation of blood or plasma be deferred for at least one month after taking the last dose of finasteride.[38]

I suggest, based on Refs 36 and 37 (manufacturers' prescribing information as deposited with the FDA), that the above be altered to:

Finasteride is contraindicated for women who are pregnant or become pregnant while exposed to it, as it may cause abnormalities in a male fetus.[36,37] Exposure through skin contact to broken or crushed tablets is identified as a risk vector. The Food and Drug Administration advises that donation of blood or plasma be deferred for at least one month after taking the last dose of finasteride.[38]

The motivation for this proposed edit is to (i) specify the reason as to why finasteride is contraindicated (abnormalities in the male fetus may be caused) and (ii) to add a comment that skin contact is a risk vector. I think that the latter is important to include as this is important information for someone who may have come into contact with finasteride unwantedly due to the serious consequences.

Silverfoil92 (talk) 13:56, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

 * I was amazed that this isn't mentioned in the article. I will something on this on a later date. Robert Brockway (talk) 03:24, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Recent developments & sources
Editors may want to consider the following for the article.

1. Regulatory news

1.1. Boxed warnings were added to finasteride (1 mg) packaging per ANSM

France's national regulator ANSM required all manufacturers add a red boxed warning to all finasteride 1 mg boxes, on sexual and psychiatric adverse effects. Organon, the current marketing authorization holder, removed the drug from the market in France.

Source: Finastéride 1 mg (Propecia et génériques) : ajout de mentions d’alerte sur les boîtes pour renforcer l’information sur les effets indésirables. ANSM (France). November 30, 2022.

1.2. FDA required new disclosure of risk of suicidal ideation and behavior to finasteride (1 mg) label

Source: Levine, Dan. FDA requires disclosure of suicide risk for anti-baldness drug. Reuters. June 10, 2022.

1.3. Health Canada alerting doctors to risk of suicidal ideation and self-injury

Health Canada Safety Review, Jan 19 2023

From key points: “Health Canada's review of the available information found a possible link between the use of finasteride and the risks of suicidal ideation and self-injury..." The agency will update product information and inform healthcare professionals through a regulatory communication.

1.4. UK Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) launches a safety review of finasteride

Source: Ennals, Ethan. “Watchdog launches investigation into hair loss pill...” Daily Mail. March 4, 2023.

2. Medical literature

2.1. New review

Leliefeld HHJ, Debruyne FMJ & Reisman Y. The post-finasteride syndrome: possible etiological mechanisms and symptoms. Int J Impot Res. 2023. doi:10.1038/s41443-023-00759-5

A statement of limitations is relevant: "LIMITATIONS. Scientific literature on the PFS has the intrinsic limitation, by definition, that symptoms can persist or even appear after cessation of the 5ARIs and therefore have been unnoticed and not documented in the literature. The earlier mentioned lack of quality studies has hampered our knowledge of the presence, frequency and duration of the side effects...” Mariedegournay (talk) 23:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

2.2. Diagnostic criteria for post-finasteride syndrome

Healy D, Bahrick A, Bak M, et al. Diagnostic criteria for enduring sexual dysfunction after treatment with antidepressants, finasteride and isotretinoin. Int J Risk Saf Med. 2021. doi:10.3233/JRS-210023

Sourcing regarding post-drug disorder
I have seen bad-faith behavior by experienced wikipedia editors regarding editing of the post-finasteride syndrome section. Specifically, one of the editors inserted a low-quality source, and they seemed to be making arbitrary decisions about the quality of other sources depending on whether those sources supported their view. While I was not directly involved in a conflict, I stopped editing when I realized that the editing process was vulnerable to such abuse.

The source the editor featured is: Trüeb, et al (August 2019). "Post-Finasteride Syndrome: An Induced Delusional Disorder with the Potential of a Mass Psychogenic Illness?". Skin Appendage Disorders. doi.org/10.1159/000497362

It is a case report which does not contribute any systematic evidence. It makes a psychological claim, but the authors are dermatologists without apparent training in psychiatry. There was no formal psychiatric evaluation of the patient. The case summary is very subjective and judgmental (describing the patient as “humorless and oversensitive” — doesn't seem professional for the doctors to put this in an article). From this one case, which lacked a serious clinical investigation, the authors created an elaborate and bizarre theory. The wikipedia editor highlighted this article, but overlooked dozens of other articles on the syndrome with a wide range of views. This is the most extreme of the lot, and I do not see how it would meet sourcing standards, given how stringent editors often are about medical sourcing. (I wonder why this was an exception.)

Editors should understand that most of the clinical trial evidence base was sponsored by Merck. The remainder was mostly by dermatologists who do not pay close attention to drug harms—and do not usually have expertise psychiatry or sexual medicine. Some literature that casts doubt on the syndrome from 2014–2020 was authored by physician-scientists who were contracted with Merck to promote Propecia or co-published articles with its researchers. For example, Dr. Antonella Tosti, Dr. Jerry Shapiro, Dr. Kevin McVary and Dr. Steven Kaplan. (By the way, Tosti is co-Editor-in-Chief at Skin Appendage Disorders where the above article by Dr. Trüeb appeared.)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a medical review organization, so I understand it cannot adjudicate on something like this. Nevertheless, editors should understand that this is an iatrogenic disorder (caused by medical treatment). There is a commercial bias built into the medical literature because so much of the evidence base came from Merck-sponsored studies. Meanwhile, as Leliefeld et al pointed out (see previous topic), there is a lack of research on post-drug harms. There is no money for such studies. Drug-related harms are threatening to medicine, so physicians may tend to deny and avoid these conditions. Again, Wikipedia can't adjudicate, but it seems a good encyclopedia should account for these circumstances, even when a source meets its criteria. An analogy here would be myalgic encephalomyelitis, denied for decades as malingering or depression, or Long COVID. Just because there are medical authorities or sources which cast doubt on a disease, that does not mean the disease is invalid.

Experienced wikipedians can be paranoid about ulterior motives of other editors, but they should also understand that conflicts of interest are rampant in medical “research” on pharmaceuticals. Mariedegournay (talk) 00:25, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Additional context for post-finasteride syndrome
Different specialties have different positions on this syndrome.

Finasteride was first developed for prostate conditions, to be prescribed by urologists (approved in 1992). Then it was approved for hair loss, to be prescribed by dermatologists (approved in 1997). Certain urologists and dermatologists worked directly with Merck as “key opinion leaders” on each effort. Some of these same people have authored articles casting doubt on post-finasteride syndrome.

The specialty that has begun to recognize the syndrome is sexual medicine (a subspecialty of urology): see Leliefeld et al, 2023 and Healy et al, 2022. Recent dermatology articles either omit or downplay the syndrome.

Dermatology has conflicts of interest since they are prescribers, and Merck worked closely with this specialty to bring it to market. It's also relevant that dermatologists don't typically have special training in sexual medicine or neuropsychiatry. As a result, they are not in a position to recognize the syndrome. Mariedegournay (talk) 01:01, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, the "scientists have a conflict of interest with science (when I don't like what they say)" gambit. For Wikipedia's guidelines on reliable sourcing for biomedicine, see WP:MEDRS. Bon courage (talk) 06:18, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * From WP:MEDRS: "Case reports and series are especially avoided, as they are uncontrolled."
 * See my discussion of the Trüeb article above. Mariedegournay (talk) 13:50, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The only "motives" being called into question are those of "experienced wikipedia editors ", "dermatologists" and Merck (by you). Pointing out a line of argument is flawed is necessary to make progress, I certainly agree we don't base WP:BMI on case reports. Bon courage (talk) 14:00, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Long-Term Section - Flaws in studies cited
In the study "Sexual dysfunction in men taking systemic dermatologic medication: A systematic review" that is cited in the Long Term section of the Finasteride Wiki. Only level 1 evidence of Finasteride potentially causing long-term side effects is cited. This is very weak evidence and it far from being a double-blinded control study. In addition, there are no double blinded control studies currently that prove that Finasteride causes long-term side effects after the drug has stopped circulating in the blood.

In fact, in a double blind long-term control study there was no evidence of side-effect continuation after cessation of the drug: https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(98)70007-6/abstract

"These adverse events (Sexual dysfunction) also resolved in many of the patients who reported them but who remained on the finasteride regimen and continued in the study."

" a few men in the current studies experienced reversible impairment of sexual function, but only 11 men receiving finasteride, compared with 8 men in the placebo group, discontinued treatment for this reason, with resolution in all."

In conclusion, I feel that the evidence cited here is extremely flimsy and is contradicted by studies with better methodology, study design and far more subjects. Thus this entry should be removed as there is far stronger evidence to the contrary of what this study and entry claims. Zpalmati (talk) 19:48, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Finasteride


text:
Talk:Blood and Chocolate (album)

Re: trivia section and Esperanto credits: 'vox kontinenta' is an electric organ, the Vox-brand "Continental" model. 'helpa baso' would translate as "Bass Help", and since the credit is for E.C. rather than Bruce Thomas, it probably refers to the fact that Elvis picked up the bass guitar for a few notes on this track.

God, I need to get a life. --unsigned comment by 24.225.95.58 on 16:11, July 5 2006 (UTC)

 * Me, too. Thanks. --Fantailfan 21:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Napoleon Dynamite
Why is this linked to the film? Is it the inspiration for the film/character title? If so, can that be documented? Otherwise, the link is distracting because it suggests a connection where they may not be one.  howcheng  {chat} 06:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, because the title character of Napoleon Dynamite gets his name from one of Elvis Costello's other pseudonyms, which can be seen written on the cover of this album? There are no thematic connections, true.

Fair use rationale for Image:Bloodandcho.jpg
Image:Bloodandcho.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

45 RPM Bonus Album
FYI: My original Vinyl Album came with extra Bonus Tracks on an 45 RPM Album

Site 1: Tokyo Storm Warning - Parts 1 & 2 Site 2: Black sails in the Sunset

Might be worthwhile to know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bartjimmom (talk • contribs) 19:59, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Blood and Chocolate (album)


text:
Talk:Chariclo

Comments
I'm not entirely knowledgable when it comes to Greek Mythology, but this page contradicts the page on Tiresias.

There, it says: "When Tiresias sided with Zeus, Hera struck him blind. Since Zeus could not undo what she had done, he gave him the gift of prophecy." Yet here it claims Athena both removed his sight and gave him the gift of prophecy.

Confusion
Either I'm very confused or this article still is (it was originally one figure and now its two). To me it seems to be a conflation of three different figures called Chariclo (see http://www.theoi.com/Encyc_C.html#C which lists two and http://www.csulb.edu/~dbouvier/Entities/indexC.html which lists three). The Lesser Merlin (talk) 13:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chariclo