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History of geography

The history of geography includes many histories of geography which have differed over time and between different cultural and political groups. In more recent developments, geography has become a distinct academic discipline. 'Geography' derives from the Greek γεωγραφία – geographia, literally "Earth-writing", that is, description or writing about the Earth. The first person to use the word geography was Eratosthenes (276–194 BC). However, there is evidence for recognizable practices of geography, such as cartography, prior to the use of the term.

Egypt
The known world of Ancient Egypt saw the Nile as the center, and the world as based upon "the" river. Various oases were known to the east and west, and were considered locations of various gods (e.g. Siwa, for Amon). To the South lay the Kushitic region, known as far as the 4th cataract. Punt was a region south along the shores of the Red Sea. Various Asiatic peoples were known as Retenu, Kanaan, Que, Harranu, or Khatti (Hittites). At various times especially in the Late Bronze Age Egyptians had diplomatic and trade relationships with Babylonia and Elam. The Mediterranean was called "the Great Green" and was believed to be part of a world encircling ocean. Europe was unknown although may have become part of the Egyptian world view in Phoenician times. To the west of Asia lay the realms of Keftiu, possibly Crete, and Mycenae (thought to be part of a chain of islands, that joined Cyprus, Crete, Sicily and later perhaps Sardinia, Corsica and the Balearics to Africa).

Babylon
The oldest known world maps date back to ancient Babylon from the 9th century BC. The best known Babylonian world map, however, is the Imago Mundi of 600 BC. The map as reconstructed by Eckhard Unger shows Babylon on the Euphrates, surrounded by a circular landmass showing Assyria, Urartu and several cities, in turn surrounded by a "bitter river" (Oceanus), with seven islands arranged around it so as to form a seven-pointed star. The accompanying text mentions seven outer regions beyond the encircling ocean. The descriptions of five of them have survived.

In contrast to the Imago Mundi, an earlier Babylonian world map dating back to the 9th century BC depicted Babylon as being further north from the center of the world, though it is not certain what that center was supposed to represent.

Greco-Roman world
The ancient Greeks viewed Homer as the founder of geography. His works the Iliad and the Odyssey are works of literature, but both contain a great deal of geographical information. Homer describes a circular world ringed by a single massive ocean. The works show that the Greeks by the 8th century BC had considerable knowledge of the geography of the eastern Mediterranean. The poems contain a large number of place names and descriptions, but for many of these it is uncertain what real location, if any, is actually being referred to.

Thales of Miletus is one of the first known philosophers known to have wondered about the shape of the world. He proposed that the world was based on water, and that all things grew out of it. He also laid down many of the astronomical and mathematical rules that would allow geography to be studied scientifically. His successor Anaximander is the first person known to have attempted to create a scale map of the known world and to have introduced the gnomon to Ancient Greece.

Hecataeus of Miletus initiated a different form of geography, avoiding the mathematical calculations of Thales and Anaximander he learnt about the world by gathering previous works and speaking to the sailors who came through the busy port of Miletus. From these accounts he wrote a detailed prose account of what was known of the world. A similar work, and one that mostly survives today, is Herodotus' Histories. While primarily a work of history, the book contains a wealth of geographic descriptions covering much of the known world. Egypt, Scythia, Persia, and Asia Minor are all described, including a mention of India. The description of Africa as a whole are contentious, with Herodotus describing the land surrounded by a sea. Though he described the Phoenicians as having circumnavigated Africa in the 6th century BC, through much of later European history the Indian Ocean was thought to be an inland sea, the southern part of Africa wrapping around in the south to connect with the eastern part of Asia. This was not completely abandoned by Western cartographers until the circumnavigation of Africa by Vasco da Gama. Some, though, hold that the descriptions of areas such as India are mostly imaginary. Regardless, Herodotus made important observations about geography. He is the first to have noted the process by which large rivers, such as the Nile, build up deltas, and is also the first recorded as observing that winds tend to blow from colder regions to warmer ones.

Pythagoras was perhaps the first to propose a spherical world, arguing that the sphere was the most perfect form. This idea was embraced by Plato, and Aristotle presented empirical evidence to verify this. He noted that the Earth's shadow during a lunar eclipse is curved from any angle (near the horizon or high in the sky), and also that stars increase in height as one moves north. Eudoxus of Cnidus used the idea of a sphere to explain how the sun created differing climatic zones based on latitude. This led the Greeks to believe in a division of the world into five regions. At each of the poles was an uncharitably cold region. While extrapolating from the heat of the Sahara it was deduced that the area around the equator was unbearably hot. Between these extreme regions both the northern and southern hemispheres had a temperate belt suitable for human habitation.

Hellenistic period
These theories clashed with the evidence of explorers, however, Hanno the Navigator had traveled as far south as Sierra Leone, and Egyptian Pharaoh Necho II of Africa is related by Herodotus and others as having commissioned a successful circumnavigation of Africa by Phoenician sailors. While they were sailing west around the Southern tip of Africa, it was found that the Sun was to their right (the north). This is thought to have been a key trigger in the realization that the Earth is spherical, in the classical world.

In the 4th century BC the Greek explorer Pytheas traveled through northeast Europe, and circled the British Isles. He found that the region was considerably more habitable than theory expected, but his discoveries were largely dismissed by his contemporaries because of this. Conquerors also carried out exploration, for example, Caesar's invasions of Britain and Germany, expeditions/invasions sent by Augustus to Arabia Felix and Ethiopia (Res Gestae 26), and perhaps the greatest Ancient Greek explorer of all, Alexander the Great, who deliberately set out to learn more about the east through his military expeditions and so took a large number of geographers and writers with his army who recorded their observations as they moved east.

The ancient Greeks divided the world into three continents, Europe, Asia, and Libya (Africa). The Hellespont formed the border between Europe and Asia. The border between Asia and Libya was generally considered to be the Nile river, but some geographers, such as Herodotus objected to this. Herodotus argued that there was no difference between the people on the east and west sides of the Nile, and that the Red Sea was a better border. The relatively narrow habitable band was considered to run from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to an unknown sea somewhere east of India in the east. The southern portion of Africa was unknown, as was the northern portion of Europe and Asia, so it was believed that they were circled by a sea. These areas were generally considered uninhabitable.

The size of the Earth was an important question to the Ancient Greeks. Eratosthenes calculated the Earth's circumference with great precision. Since the distance from the Atlantic to India was roughly known, this raised the important question of what was in the vast region east of Asia and to the west of Europe. Crates of Mallus proposed that there were in fact four inhabitable land masses, two in each hemisphere. In Rome a large globe was created depicting this world. Posidonius set out to get a measurement, but his number actually was considerably smaller than the real one, yet it became accepted that the eastern part of Asia was not a huge distance from Europe.

Roman period

While the works of almost all earlier geographers have been lost, many of them are partially known through quotations found in Strabo (64/63 BC – ca. AD 24). Strabo's seventeen volume work of geography is almost completely extant, and is one of the most important sources of information on classical geography. Strabo accepted the narrow band of habitation theory, and rejected the accounts of Hanno and Pytheas as fables. None of Strabo's maps survive, but his detailed descriptions give a clear picture of the status of geographical knowledge of the time. Pliny the Elder's (AD 23 – 79) Natural History also has sections on geography. A century after Strabo Ptolemy (AD 90 – 168) launched a similar undertaking. By this time the Roman Empire had expanded through much of Europe, and previously unknown areas such as the British Isles had been explored. The Silk Road was also in operation, and for the first time knowledge of the far east began to be known. Ptolemy's Geographia opens with a theoretical discussion about the nature and techniques of geographical inquiry, and then moves to detailed descriptions of much the known world. Ptolemy lists a huge number of cities, tribes, and sites and places them in the world. It is uncertain what Ptolemy's names correspond to in the modern world, and a vast amount of scholarship has gone into trying to link Ptolemaic descriptions to known locations.

It was the Romans who made far more extensive practical use of geography and maps. The Roman transportation system, consisting of 55,000 miles of roads, could not have been designed without the use of geographical systems of measurement and triangulation. The cursus publicus, a department of the Roman government devoted to transportation, employed full-time gromatici (surveyors). The surveyors' job was to gather topographical information and then to determine the straightest possible route where a road might be built. Instruments and principles used included sun dials for determining direction, theodolites for measuring horizontal angles, and triangulation without which the creation of perfectly straight stretches, some as long as 35 miles, would have been impossible. During the Greco-Roman era, those who performed geographical work could be divided into four categories:

 * Land surveyors determined the exact dimensions of a particular area such as a field, dividing the land into plots for distribution, or laying out the streets in a town.
 * Cartographical surveyors made maps, involving finding latitudes, longitudes and elevations.
 * Military surveyors were called upon to determine such information as the width of a river an army would need to cross.
 * Engineering surveyors investigated terrain in order to prepare the way for roads, canals, aqueducts, tunnels and mines.

Around AD 400 a scroll map called the Peutinger Table was made of the known world, featuring the Roman road network. Besides the Roman Empire which at that time spanned from Britain to the Middle East and Africa, the map includes India, Sri Lanka and China. Cities are demarcated using hundreds of symbols. It measures 1.12 ft high and 22.15 ft long. The tools and principles of geography used by the Romans would be closely followed with little practical improvement for the next 700 years.

India
A vast corpus of Indian texts embraced the study of geography. The Vedas and Puranas contain elaborate descriptions of rivers and mountains and treat the relationship between physical and human elements. According to religious scholar Diana Eck, a notable feature of geography in India is its interweaving with Hindu mythology, "No matter where one goes in India, one will find a landscape in which mountains, rivers, forests, and villages are elaborately linked to the stories and gods of Indian culture. Every place in this vast country has its story; and conversely, every story of Hindu myth and legend has its place."

Ancient period
The geographers of ancient India put forward theories regarding the origin of the Earth. They theorized that the Earth was formed by the solidification of gaseous matter and that the Earth's crust is composed of hard rocks (sila), clay (bhumih) and sand (asma). Theories were also propounded to explain earthquakes (bhukamp) and it was assumed that earth, air and water combined to cause earthquakes. The Arthashastra, a compendium by Kautilya (also known as Chanakya) contains a range of geographical and statistical information about the various regions of India. The composers of the Puranas divided the known world into seven continents of dwipas, Jambu Dwipa, Krauncha Dwipa, Kusha Dwipa, Plaksha Dwipa, Pushkara Dwipa, Shaka Dwipa and Shalmali Dwipa. Descriptions were provided for the climate and geography of each of the dwipas.

Early Medieval period
The Vishnudharmottara Purana (compiled between 300 and 350 AD) contains six chapters on physical and human geography. The locational attributes of peoples and places, and various seasons are the topics of these chapters. Varāhamihira's Brihat-Samhita gave a thorough treatment of planetary movements, rainfall, clouds and the formation of water. The mathematician-astronomer Aryabhatiya gave a precise estimate of the Earth's circumference in his treatise Āryabhaṭīya. Aryabhata accurately calculated the Earth's circumference as 24,835 miles, which was only 0.2% smaller than the actual value of 24,902 miles.

Late Medieval period
The Mughal chronicles Tuzuk-i-Jehangiri, Ain-i-Akbari and Dastur-ul-aml contain detailed geographical narratives. These were based on the earlier geographical works of India and the advances made by medieval Muslim geographers, particularly the work of Alberuni.

China
In China, the earliest known geographical Chinese writing dates back to the 5th century BC, during the beginning of the Warring States period (481 BC – 221 BC). This work was the Yu Gong ('Tribute of Yu') chapter of the Shu Jing or Book of Documents, which describes the traditional nine provinces of ancient China, their kinds of soil, their characteristic products and economic goods, their tributary goods, their trades and vocations, their state revenues and agricultural systems, and the various rivers and lakes listed and placed accordingly. The nine provinces at the time of this geographical work were relatively small in size compared to those of modern China with the book's descriptions pertaining to areas of the Yellow River, the lower valleys of the Yangtze and the plain between them as well as the Shandong peninsula and to the west the most northern parts of the Wei and Han Rivers along with the southern parts of modern-day Shanxi province.

In this ancient geographical treatise, which would greatly influence later Chinese geographers and cartographers, the Chinese used the mythological figure of Yu the Great to describe the known earth (of the Chinese). Apart from the appearance of Yu, however, the work was devoid of magic, fantasy, Chinese folklore, or legend. Although the Chinese geographical writing in the time of Herodotus and Strabo were of lesser quality and contained less systematic approach, this would change from the 3rd century onwards, as Chinese methods of documenting geography became more complex than those found in Europe, a state of affairs that would persist until the 13th century.

The earliest extant maps found in archeological sites of China date to the 4th century BC and were made in the ancient State of Qin. The earliest known reference to the application of a geometric grid and mathematically graduated scale to a map was contained in the writings of the cartographer Pei Xiu (224–271). From the 1st century AD onwards, official Chinese historical texts contained a geographical section, which was often an enormous compilation of changes in place-names and local administrative divisions controlled by the ruling dynasty, descriptions of mountain ranges, river systems, taxable products, etc. The ancient Chinese historian Ban Gu (32–92) most likely started the trend of the gazetteer in China, which became prominent in the Northern and Southern dynasties period and Sui dynasty. Local gazetteers would feature a wealth of geographic information, although its cartographic aspects were not as highly professional as the maps created by professional cartographers.

From the time of the 5th century BC Shu Jing forward, Chinese geographical writing provided more concrete information and less legendary element. This example can be seen in the 4th chapter of the Huainanzi (Book of the Master of Huainan), compiled under the editorship of Prince Liu An in 139 BC during the Han dynasty (202 BC – 202 AD). The chapter gave general descriptions of topography in a systematic fashion, given visual aids by the use of maps (di tu) due to the efforts of Liu An and his associate Zuo Wu. In Chang Chu's Hua Yang Guo Chi (Historical Geography of Sichuan) of 347, not only rivers, trade routes, and various tribes were described, but it also wrote of a 'Ba Jun Tu Jing' ('Map of Sichuan'), which had been made much earlier in 150. The Shui Jing (Waterways Classic) was written anonymously in the 3rd century during the Three Kingdoms era (attributed often to Guo Pu), and gave a description of some 137 rivers found throughout China. In the 6th century, the book was expanded to forty times its original size by the geographers Li Daoyuan, given the new title of Shui Jing Zhu (The Waterways Classic Commented).

In later periods of the Song dynasty (960–1279) and Ming dynasty (1368–1644), there were much more systematic and professional approaches to geographic literature. The Song dynasty poet, scholar, and government official Fan Chengda (1126–1193) wrote the geographical treatise known as the Gui Hai Yu Heng Chi. It focused primarily on the topography of the land, along with the agricultural, economic and commercial products of each region in China's southern provinces. The polymath Chinese scientist Shen Kuo (1031–1095) devoted a significant amount of his written work to geography, as well as a hypothesis of land formation (geomorphology) due to the evidence of marine fossils found far inland, along with bamboo fossils found underground in a region far from where bamboo was suitable to grow. The 14th-century Yuan dynasty geographer Na-xin wrote a treatise of archeological topography of all the regions north of the Yellow River, in his book He Shuo Fang Gu Ji. The Ming dynasty geographer Xu Xiake (1587–1641) traveled throughout the provinces of China (often on foot) to write his enormous geographical and topographical treatise, documenting various details of his travels, such as the locations of small gorges, or mineral beds such as mica schists. Xu's work was largely systematic, providing accurate details of measurement, and his work (translated later by Ding Wenjiang) read more like a 20th-century field surveyor than an early 17th-century scholar.

The Chinese were also concerned with documenting geographical information of foreign regions far outside of China. Although Chinese had been writing of civilizations of the Middle East, India, and Central Asia since the traveler Zhang Qian (2nd century BC), later Chinese would provide more concrete and valid information on the topography and geographical aspects of foreign regions. The Tang dynasty (618–907) Chinese diplomat Wang Xuance traveled to Magadha (modern northeastern India) during the 7th century. Afterwards he wrote the book Zhang Tian-zhu Guo Tu (Illustrated Accounts of Central India), which included a wealth of geographical information. Chinese geographers such as Jia Dan (730–805) wrote accurate descriptions of places far abroad. In his work written between 785 and 805, he described the sea route going into the mouth of the Persian Gulf, and that the medieval Iranians (whom he called the people of the Luo-He-Yi country, i.e. Persia) had erected 'ornamental pillars' in the sea that acted as lighthouse beacons for ships that might go astray. Confirming Jia's reports about lighthouses in the Persian Gulf, Arabic writers a century after Jia wrote of the same structures, writers such as al-Mas'udi and al-Muqaddasi. The later Song dynasty ambassador Xu Jing wrote his accounts of voyage and travel throughout Korea in his work of 1124, the Xuan-He Feng Shi Gao Li Tu Jing (Illustrated Record of an Embassy to Korea in the Xuan-He Reign Period). The geography of medieval Cambodia (the Khmer Empire) was documented in the book Zhen-La Feng Tu Ji of 1297, written by Zhou Daguan.

Byzantine Empire and Syria
After the fall of the western Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire, ruled from Constantinople and known as the Byzantine Empire, continued to thrive and produced several noteworthy geographers. Stephanus of Byzantium (6th century) was a grammarian at Constantinople and authored the important geographical dictionary Ethnica. This work is of enormous value, providing well-referenced geographical and other information about ancient Greece.

The geographer Hierocles (6th century) authored the Synecdemus (prior to AD 535) in which he provides a table of administrative divisions of the Byzantine Empire and lists the cities in each. The Synecdemus and the Ethnica were the principal sources of Constantine VII's work on the Themes or divisions of Byzantium, and are the primary sources we have today on political geography of the sixth-century East.

George of Cyprus is known for his Descriptio orbis Romani (Description of the Roman world), written in the decade 600–610. Beginning with Italy and progressing counterclockwise including Africa, Egypt and the western Middle East, George lists cities, towns, fortresses and administrative divisions of the Byzantine or Eastern Roman Empire.

Cosmas Indicopleustes, (6th century) also known as "Cosmas the Monk", was an Alexandrian merchant. By the records of his travels, he seems to have visited India, Sri Lanka, the Kingdom of Axum in modern Ethiopia, and Eritrea. Included in his work Christian Topography were some of the earliest world maps. Though Cosmas believed the earth to be flat, most Christian geographers of his time disagreed with him.

Syrian bishop Jacob of Edessa (633–708) adapted scientific material sourced from Aristotle, Theophrastus, Ptolemy and Basil to develop a carefully structured picture of the cosmos. He corrects his sources and writes more scientifically, whereas Basil's Hexaemeron is theological in style.

Karl Müller has collected and printed several anonymous works of geography from this era, including the Expositio totius mundi.

Islamic world
In the latter 7th century, adherents of the new religion of Islam surged northward out of Arabia taking over lands in which Jews, Byzantine Christians and Persian Zoroastrians had been established for centuries. There, carefully preserved in the monasteries and libraries, they discovered the Greek classics which included great works of geography by Egyptian Ptolemy's Almagest and Geography, along with the geographical wisdom of the Chinese and the great accomplishments of the Roman Empire. The Arabs, who spoke only Arabic, employed Christians and Jews to translate these and many other manuscripts into Arabic.

The primary geographical scholarship of this era occurred in Persia, today's Iran, in the great learning center the House of Wisdom at Baghdad, today's Iraq. Early caliphs did not follow orthodoxy and so they encouraged scholarship. Under their rule, native non-Arabs served as mawali or dhimmi, and most geographers in this period were Syrian (Byzantine) or Persian, i.e. of either Zoroastrian or Christian background.

Persians who wrote on geography or created maps during the Middle Ages included:

 * Al-Khwārizmī (780–850) wrote The Image of the Earth (Kitab surat al-ard), in which he used the Geography (Ptolemy) of Ptolemy but improved upon his values for the Mediterranean Sea, Asia, and Africa.
 * Ibn Khurdadhbih (820–912) authored a book of administrative geography Book of the Routes and Provinces (Kitab al-masalik wa’l-mamalik), which is the earliest surviving Arabic work of its kind. He made the first quadratic scheme map of four sectors.
 * Sohrab or Sorkhab (died 930) wrote Marvels of the Seven Climes to the End of Habitation describing and illustrating a rectangular grid of latitude and longitude to produce a world map.
 * Al-Balkhi (850–934) founded the "Balkhī school" of terrestrial mapping in Baghdad.
 * Al-Istakhri (died 957) compiled the Book of the Routes of States, (Kitab Masalik al-Mamalik) from personal observations and literary sources
 * Al-Biruni (973–1052) described polar equi-azimuthal equidistant projection of the celestial sphere.
 * Abu Nasr Mansur (960–1036) known for his work with the spherical sine law. His Book of Azimuths is no longer extant.
 * Avicenna (980–1037) wrote on earth sciences in his Book of Healing.
 * Ibn al-Faqih (10th century) wrote Concise Book of Lands (Mukhtasar Kitab al-Buldan).
 * Ibn Rustah (10th century) wrote a geographical compendium known as Book of Precious Records.

Further details about some of these are given below:

In the early 10th century, Abū Zayd al-Balkhī, a Persian originally from Balkh, founded the "Balkhī school" of terrestrial mapping in Baghdad. The geographers of this school also wrote extensively of the peoples, products, and customs of areas in the Muslim world, with little interest in the non-Muslim realms. Suhrāb, a late 10th-century Persian geographer, accompanied a book of geographical coordinates with instructions for making a rectangular world map, with equirectangular projection or cylindrical equidistant projection. In the early 11th century, Avicenna hypothesized on the geological causes of mountains in The Book of Healing (1027).

In mathematical geography, Persian Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī, around 1025, was the first to describe a polar equi-azimuthal equidistant projection of the celestial sphere. He was also regarded as the most skilled when it came to mapping cities and measuring the distances between them, which he did for many cities in the Middle East and western Indian subcontinent. He combined astronomical readings and mathematical equations to record degrees of latitude and longitude and to measure the heights of mountains and depths of valleys, recorded in The Chronology of the Ancient Nations. He discussed human geography and the planetary habitability of the Earth, suggesting that roughly a quarter of the Earth's surface is habitable by humans.

By the early 12th century the Normans had overthrown the Arabs in Sicily. Palermo had become a crossroads for travelers and traders from many nations and the Norman King Roger II, having great interest in geography, commissioned the creation of a book and map that would compile all this wealth of geographical information. Researchers were sent out and the collection of data took 15 years. Al-Idrisi, one of few Arabs who had ever been to France and England as well as Spain, Central Asia and Constantinople, was employed to create the book from this mass of data. Utilizing the information inherited from the classical geographers, he created one of the most accurate maps of the world to date, the Tabula Rogeriana (1154). The map, written in Arabic, shows the Eurasian continent in its entirety and the northern part of Africa.

An adherent of environmental determinism was the medieval Afro-Arab writer al-Jahiz (776–869), who explained how the environment can determine the physical characteristics of the inhabitants of a certain community. He used his early theory of evolution to explain the origins of different human skin colors, particularly black skin, which he believed to be the result of the environment. He cited a stony region of black basalt in the northern Najd as evidence for his theory.

Medieval Europe

During the Early Middle Ages, geographical knowledge in Europe regressed (though it is a popular misconception that they thought the world was flat), and the simple T and O map became the standard depiction of the world.

The trips of Venetian explorer Marco Polo throughout Mongol Empire in the 13th century, the Christian Crusades of the 12th and 13th centuries, and the Portuguese and Spanish voyages of exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries opened up new horizons and stimulated geographic writings. The Mongols also had wide-ranging knowledge of the geography of Europe and Asia, based in their governance and ruling of much of this area and used this information for the undertaking of large military expeditions. The evidence for this is found in historical resources such as The Secret History of Mongols and other Persian chronicles written in 13th and 14th centuries. For example, during the rule of the Great Yuan Dynasty a world map was created and is currently kept in South Korea. See also: Maps of the Yuan Dynasty

During the 15th century, Henry the Navigator of Portugal supported explorations of the African coast and became a leader in the promotion of geographic studies. Among the most notable accounts of voyages and discoveries published during the 16th century were those by Giambattista Ramusio in Venice, by Richard Hakluyt in England, and by Theodore de Bry in what is now Belgium.

Early modern period
Following the journeys of Marco Polo, interest in geography spread throughout Europe. From around c. 1400, the writings of Ptolemy and his successors provided a systematic framework to tie together and portray geographical information. This framework was used by academics for centuries to come, the positives being the lead-up to the geographical enlightenment, however, women and indigenous writings were largely excluded from the discourse. The European global conquests started in the early 15th century with the first Portuguese expeditions to Africa and India, as well as the conquest of America by Spain in 1492 and continued with a series of European naval expeditions across the Atlantic and later the Pacific and Russian expeditions to Siberia until the 18th century. European overseas expansion led to the rise of colonial empires, with the contact between the "Old" and "New World"s producing the Columbian Exchange: a wide transfer of plants, animals, foods, human populations (including slaves), communicable diseases and culture between the continents. These colonialist endeavours in 16th and 17th centuries revived a desire for both "accurate" geographic detail, and more solid theoretical foundations. The Geographia Generalis by Bernhardus Varenius and Gerardus Mercator's world map are prime examples of the new breed of scientific geography.

The Waldseemüller map Universalis Cosmographia, created by German cartographer Martin Waldseemüller in April 1507, is the first map of the Americas in which the name "America" is mentioned. Before this, the Native Americans referred to their land depending on their location, with one of the more commonly used terms being "Abya Yala", meaning "land of vital blood". These indigenous geographical discourses were largely ignored or appropriated by the European colonialists to make way for European thought.

The Eurocentric map was patterned after a modification of Ptolemy's second projection but expanded to include the Americas. The Waldseemuller Map has been called "America's birth certificate" Waldseemüller also created printed maps called globe gores, that could be cut out and glued to spheres resulting in a globe.

This has been debated widely as being dismissive of the extensive Native American history that predated the 16th-century invasion, in the sense that the implication of a "birth certificate" implies a blank history prior.

16th~18th centuries in the West
Geography as a science experiences excitement and exerts influence during the Scientific revolution and Reformation. In the Victorian period, the oversea exploration gave it institutional identity and geography was "the science of imperialism par excellence." Imperialism is a crucial concept for the Europeans, as the institution become involved in geographical exploration and colonial project. Authority was questioned, and utility gained its importance. In the era of Enlightenment, geography generated knowledge and made it intellectually and practically possible as a university discipline. The natural theology required geography to investigate the world as a grand machine from the Divine. Scientific voyages and travels constructed geopolitical power from geographical knowledge, partly sponsored by Royal Society.

The discourse of geographical history gave way to many new thoughts and theories, but the hegemony of the European male academia led to the exclusion of non-western theories, observations and knowledges. One such example is the interaction between humans and nature, with Marxist thought critiquing nature as a commodity within Capitalism, European thought seeing nature as either a romanticised or objective concept differing to human society, and Native American discourse, which saw nature and humans as within one category. The implied hierarchy of knowledge that perpetuated throughout these institutions has only been recently challenged, with the Royal Geographical Society enabling women to join as members in the 20th century.

After English Civil War, Samuel Hartlib and his Baconian community promoted scientific application, which showed the popularity of utility. For William Petty, the administrators should be "skilled in the best rules of judicial astrology" to "calculate the events of diseases and prognosticate the weather." Institutionally, Gresham College propagated scientific advancement to a larger audience like tradesmen, and later this institute grew into Royal Society. William Cuningham illustrated the utilitarian function of cosmography by the military implement of maps. John Dee used mathematics to study location—his primary interest in geography and encouraged exploiting resource with findings collected during voyages. Religion Reformation stimulated geographical exploration and investigation. Philipp Melanchthon shifted geographical knowledge production from "pages of scripture" to "experience in the world." Bartholomäus Keckermann separated geography from theology because the "general workings of providence" required empirical investigation. His follower, Bernhardus Varenius made geography a science in the 17th century and published Geographia Generalis, which was used in Newton's teaching of geography at Cambridge.

Science develops along with empiricism. Empiricism gains its central place while reflection on it also grew. Practitioners of magic and astrology first embraced and expanded geographical knowledge. Reformation Theology focused more on the providence than the creation as previously. Realistic experience, instead of translated from scripture, emerged as a scientific procedure. Geographical knowledge and method play roles in economic education and administrative application, as part of the Puritan social program. Foreign travels provided content for geographic research and formed theories, such as environmentalism. Cartography showed its practical, theoretical, and artistic value.

The concepts of "Space" and "Place" attract attention in geography. Why things are there and not elsewhere is an important topic in Geography, together with debates on space and place. Such insights could date back in 16th and 17th centuries, identified by M. Curry as "Natural Space", "Absolute Space", "Relational Space" (On Space and Spatial Practice). After Descartes's Principles of Philosophy, Locke and Leibniz considered space as relative, which has long-term influence on the modern view of space. For Descartes, Grassendi and Newton, place is a portion of "absolution space", which are neural and given. However, according to John Locke, "Our Idea of Place is nothing else, but such a relative Position of any thing" (in An Essay Concerning Human Understanding). "Distance" is the pivot modification of space, because "Space considered barely in length between any two Beings, without considering any thing else between them". Also, the place is "made by Men, for their common use, that by it they might be able to design the particular Position of Things". In the Fifth Paper in Reply to Clarke, Leibniz stated: "Men fancy places, traces, and space, though these things consist only in the truth of relations and not at all in any absolute reality". Space, as an "order of coexistence", "can only be an ideal thing, containing a certain order, wherein the mind conceives the application of relation". Leibniz moved further for the term "distance" as he discussed it together with "interval" and "situation", not just a measurable character. Leibniz bridged place and space to quality and quantity, by saying "Quantity or magnitude is that in things which can be known only through their simultaneous compresence—or by their simultaneous perception... Quality, on the other hand, is what can be known in things when they are observed singly, without requiring any compresence." In Modern Space as Relative, place and what is in place are integrated. "The Supremacy of Space" is observed by E. Casey when the place is resolved as "position and even point" by Leibniz's rationalism and Locke's empiricism.

During the Age of Enlightenment, advancements in science mean widening human knowledge and enable further exploiting nature, along with industrialization and empire expansion in Europe. David Hume, "the real father of positivist philosophy" according to Leszek Kolakowski, implied the "doctrine of facts", emphasizing the importance of scientific observations. The "fact" is related with sensationalism that object cannot be isolated from its "sense-perceptions", an opinion of Berkeley. Galileo, Descartes, later Hobbes and Newton advocated scientific materialism, viewing the universe—the entire world and even human mind—as a machine. The mechanist world view is also found in the work of Adam Smith based on historical and statistics methods. In chemistry, Antoine Lavoisier proposed the "exact science model" and stressed quantitative methods from experiment and mathematics. Carl Linnaeus classified plants and organisms based on an assumption of fixed species. Later, the idea of evolution emerged not only for species but also for society and human intellect. In General Natural History and Theory of the Heavens, Kant laid out his hypothesis of cosmic evolution, and made him "the great founder of the modern scientific conception of Evolution" according to Hastie.

Francis Bacon and his followers believed progress of science and technology drive betterment of man. This belief was attached by Jean-Jacques Rousseau who defended human emotions and morals. His discussion on geography education piloted local regional studies. Leibniz and Kant formed the major challenge to the mechanical materialism. Leibniz conceptualized the world as a changing whole, rather than "sum of its parts" as a machine. Nevertheless, he acknowledged experience requires rational interpretation—the power of human reason.

Kant tried to reconcile the division of sense and reason by stressing moral rationalism grounded on aesthetic experience of nature as "order, harmony, and unity". For knowledge, Kant distinguished phenomena (sensible world) and noumena (intelligible world), and he asserted "all phenomena are perceived in the relations of space and time." Drawing a line between "rational science" and "empirical science", Kant regarded Physical geography—associating with space—as natural science. During his tenure in Königsberg, Kant offered lectures on physical geography since 1756 and published the lecture notes Physische Geographie in 1801. However, Kant's involvement in travel and geographical research is fairly limited. Kant's work on empirical and rational science influence Humboldt and at smaller extent Ritter. Manfred Büttner asserted that is "Kantian emancipation of geography from theology."

Humboldt is admired as a great geographer, according to D. Livingstone that "modern geography was first and last a synthesizing science and as such, if Goetzmann is to be believed, 'it became the key scientific activity of the age'." Humboldt met the geographer George Forster at the University of Göttingen, whose geographical description and scientific writing influenced Humboldt. His Geognosia including the geography of rocks, animals, and plants is "an important model for modern geography". As the Prussian Ministry of Mines, Humboldt founded the Free Royal Mining School at Steben for miners, later regarded the prototype of such institutes. German Naturphilosophie, especially the work of Goethe and Herder, stimulated Humboldt's idea and research of a universal science. In his letter, he made observations while his "attention will never lose sight of the harmony of concurrent forces, the influence of the inanimate world on the animal and vegetable kingdom." His American travel stressed the geography of plants as his focus of science. Meanwhile, Humboldt used empirical method to study the indigenous people in the New World, regarded as a most important work in human geography. In Relation historique du Voyage, Humboldt called these research a new science Physique du monde, Theorie de la Terre, or Geographie physique. During 1825 to 1859, Humboldt devoted in Kosmos, which is about the knowledge of nature. There are growing works about the New World since then. In the Jeffersonian era, "American geography was born of the geography of America", meaning the knowledge discovery helped form the discipline. Practical knowledge and national pride are main components of the Teleological tradition.

Institutions such as the Royal Geographical Society indicate geography as an independent discipline. Mary Somerville's Physical Geography was the "conceptual culmination of ... Baconian ideal of universal integration". According to Francis Bacon, "No natural phenomenon can be adequately studied by itself alone – but, to be understood, it must be considered as it stands connected with all nature."

19th century
By the 18th century, geography had become recognized as a discrete discipline and became part of a typical university curriculum in Europe (especially Paris and Berlin), although not in the United Kingdom where geography was generally taught as a sub-discipline of other subjects.

A holistic view of geography and nature can be seen in the work by the 19th-century polymath Alexander von Humboldt. One of the great works of this time was Humboldt's Kosmos: a sketch of a physical description of the Universe, the first volume of which was published in German in 1845. Such was the power of this work that Dr Mary Somerville, of Cambridge University intended to scrap publication of her own Physical Geography on reading Kosmos. Von Humboldt himself persuaded her to publish (after the publisher sent him a copy).

In 1877, Thomas Henry Huxley published his Physiography with the philosophy of universality presented as an integrated approach in the study of the natural environment. The philosophy of universality in geography was not a new one but can be seen as evolving from the works of Alexander von Humboldt and Immanuel Kant. The publication of Huxley physiography presented a new form of geography that analysed and classified cause and effect at the micro-level and then applied these to the macro-scale (due to the view that the micro was part of the macro and thus an understanding of all the micro-scales was need to understand the macro level). This approach emphasized the empirical collection of data over the theoretical. The same approach was also used by Halford John Mackinder in 1887. However, the integration of the Geosphere, Atmosphere and Biosphere under physiography was soon over taken by Davisian geomorphology.

Over the past two centuries the quantity of knowledge and the number of tools has exploded. There are strong links between geography and the sciences of geology and botany, as well as economics, sociology and demographics.

The Royal Geographical Society was founded in England in 1830, although the United Kingdom did not get its first full chair of geography until 1917. The first real geographical intellect to emerge in United Kingdom geography was Halford John Mackinder, appointed reader at Oxford University in 1887.

The National Geographic Society was founded in the United States in 1888 and began publication of the National Geographic magazine which became and continues to be a great popularizer of geographic information. The society has long supported geographic research and education.

20th century

In the West during the second half of the 19th and the 20th century, the discipline of geography at various time engaged with four broad themes: environmental determinism, regional geography, the quantitative revolution, and critical geography.

Environmental determinism
Environmental determinism is the theory that a people's physical, mental and moral habits are directly due to the influence of their natural environment. Prominent environmental determinists included Carl Ritter, Ellen Churchill Semple, and Ellsworth Huntington. Environmentally deterministic hypotheses included stereotypes such as "heat makes inhabitants of the tropics lazy" and "frequent changes in barometric pressure make inhabitants of temperate latitudes more intellectually agile." Environmental determinist geographers attempted to make the study of such influences scientific. Around the 1930s, this school of thought was widely repudiated as lacking any basis and being prone to (often bigoted) generalizations. Environmental determinism remains an embarrassment to many contemporary geographers, and leads to skepticism among many of them of claims of environmental influence on culture (such as the theories of Jared Diamond).

Regional geography
Regional geography was coined by a group of geographers known as possibilists and represented a reaffirmation that the proper topic of geography was study of places (regions). Regional geographers focused on the collection of descriptive information about places, as well as the proper methods for dividing the Earth up into regions. Well-known names from these period are Alfred Hettner in Germany and Paul Vidal de la Blache in France. The philosophical basis of this field in United States was laid out by Richard Hartshorne, who defined geography as a study of areal differentiation, which later led to criticism of this approach as overly descriptive and unscientific.

However, the concept of a Regional geography model focused on Area Studies has remained incredibly popular amongst students of geography, while less so amongst scholars who are proponents of Critical Geography and reject a Regional geography paradigm. During its heyday in the 1970s through the early 1990s, regional geography made substantive contributions to students' and readers' understanding of foreign cultures and the real world effects of the delineation of borders.

The quantitative revolution
The quantitative revolution in geography began in the 1950s. Geographers formulated geographical theories and subjected the theories to empirical tests, usually using statistical methods (especially hypothesis testing). This quantitative revolution laid the groundwork for the development of geographic information systems. Well-known geographers from this period are Fred K. Schaefer, Waldo Tobler, William Garrison, Peter Haggett, Richard J. Chorley, William Bunge, Edward Augustus Ackerman and Torsten Hägerstrand. An important concept that emerged from this is the first law of geography, proposed by Waldo Tobler, which states that "everything is related to everything else, but near things are more related than distant things."

Critical geography
The term critical geography has been in use since at least 1749, when the book Geography reformed: a new system of general geography, according to an Accurate Analysis of the science in four parts dedicated a chapter to the topic titled "of Critical Geography." This chapter described critical geography as an approach geographers take to build upon the work of others, and make corrections to their maps based on new information. In the 1970s, the term saw a resurgence as so called "radical geographers" took on the framework of critical theory and Marxist philosophy, using critical geography as an umbrella uniting various theoretical frameworks in geography, including Marxist geography and feminist geography.

Critical geography re-emerged within the discipline in part as a radical critique of positivist approaches that gained popularity during the quantitative revolution. The first strain of critical geography to emerge was humanistic geography. Drawing on the philosophies of existentialism and phenomenology, humanistic geographers (such as Yi-Fu Tuan) focused on people's sense of, and relationship with, places. More influential was Marxist geography, which applied the social theories of Karl Marx and his followers to geographic phenomena. David Harvey, Milton Santos and Richard Peet are well-known Marxist geographers. Feminist geography is, as the name suggests, the use of ideas from feminism in geographic contexts. The most recent strain of critical geography is postmodernist geography, which employs the ideas of postmodernist and poststructuralist theorists to explore the social construction of spatial relations.

Critical geography is often viewed as directly opposed to the positive approaches during the 20th century, and quantitative geographers have levied counter criticisms. Some argue the rise in critical geography was in response to the difficulty in understanding the new techniques and technology, and that the early criticisms of these technologies critical geographers put forth in the 20th century have been addressed by advances in computers. Critical geography has been called "anti-science."

Social theory/spatial analysis split
After an initial debate on the merits of positivism, where critical geographers attempted "to excise everything that went before in quantitative geography" and "overthrow the dominant quantitative approach" during the 1960s and 1970s, by 1995, GIS practitioners and quantitative geographers began to "decline comment" to critical geography in an academic context. While quantitative geographers and critical geographers continued to work together in some context, a lack of "common vocabulary," and rounds of "polarizing debates," lead to a situation of "mutual indifference and absence of dialog between the two groups" during the 2000s. The result of this split led to the creation of two camps within human geography that many view as irreconcilable, described by geographer Mei-Po Kwan as the "social-cultural geographies" and the "spatial-analytical geographies."

title: History of geography


text: User talk:4.60.84.70

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:4.60.84.70


text: User talk:203.22.70.5

title: User talk:203.22.70.5


text: Category:Canals in France

title: Category:Canals in France


text:
Talk:Public sociology

Untitled
Hello. I write to inform anyone that reads this that the Applied and Clinical Sociology community plans to enter this discussion and add information to the page. As you might anticipate, most of us are not too keen on being subsumed under Public Sociology. I have volunteered to lead this effort. I am a fan of all social scientists who actually do something relevant and real world with their work. Sometimes that works with Public Soc. Sometimes I find it doesn't. But, that is the case with everyone. Anyway. Wanted to give you a heads-up. jammieprice

Revised the slur into a critique, and put up some actual content. Sorry it's Berkeley-centric. It's just a start, needs your help.

I was working on NPOVing this when you beat me to the punch. The revisions are decent, I think, although it definitely still needs fleshing out. I would consider excising the link to Contexts magazine. I'm not familiar with the magazine, but it seems to be a "general perspectives journal" rather than one specific to public sociology. I also think it's relevant that the 2004 ASA conference had a "Public Sociologies" theme since the creator of the article seemed to upset with attempts by Burawoy and others to "sway" the ASA. Some reference to this might reasonably be integrated. Shotput 06:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, the editors of Contexts as far as I know identify with public sociology, and I think the journal represents one part of the pub soc current. Zerozombie 21:33, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am disappointed that there is so little recognition that public sociology, the best kind at least, is dedicated to Marxism and socialism, as Burawoy reminded us in his advocacy of sociological socialism.

Sigh. I know, I would love Sociology so much if it were not as a practice so heavily intertwined with such a repugnant political system. Kade 18:42, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

revisions
I have:

 * 1) attempted to establish sections where knowledgeable people can elaborate both on what public sociology is/does and on criticisms of it; obviously these need much elaboration
 * 2) rewritten most of the "'real' sociology isn't informed by politics" type statements or removed them to the criticisms section
 * 3) I really don't think it's some kind of conspiracy or new development that many sociologists apply Marxist thinking to social problems
 * 4) similarly, it doesn't look as if public sociology is "recent"; certainly, there is the notion of public engagement in the writing of Marx, Du Bois and as noted in the revisions, Mills and Bellah.

I also think that some kind of corroboration of the statement that the ASA is being torn asunder because of the public sociology debate would be useful. I left it in however because I have no idea what goes on at the ASAs. --Birdmessenger 18:19, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

editing Deflem's additions

 * Most typically, public sociologists are leftist, sociological radicals of a predominantly Marxist variety.

Please provide evidence for this assertion.

"public sociology today emerges as a defensive outpost against the tyranny of the unconstrained market and the unlilateralist state -- both at home and abroad... We are sociologists who identify with the resilience of civil society... Working with the positive moment of civil society, sociology defends its own very existence, but at the same time defends the interests of humanity. Sociologists of the world unite for a renascent civil society – a vibrant, participatory, global counter-hegemony!"...

I do not believe that this adds to our understanding of the scope of public sociology.

''But, also of course, the reactionary United States of America defends the idea of sociology as science. (source: Public Sociology Alive!).''

This is unclear.

 * Critiquing certain actions taken under the banner of public sociology in the American Sociological Association, Deflem has also unmasked the political trickery that went into the Association passing political resolutions. "Based on a misguided call for sociologists to engage in a debate on ethical values," Deflem argues, "sociologists have more than ever before opened the door to be chastised for doing things they simply are not meant to do. When it comes to values, sociologists can claim no expertise, for in ethical debates all members of society can freely and equally participate... Among the participants of democracy there are no experts... But instead of searching for the truth in matters of society, public sociologists are engaged in an ethical discourse as a foundation for their work. Sociologists are now encouraged to inject their ethics in their work and to draw conclusions not on the basis of evidence and research, but on the basis of the rightness of certain ethical ideas. (Deflem, The War in Iraq and the Peace of San Francisco, Peace, War and Social Conflict newsletter, 2004).

I think a lot of this repeats what is said in the paragraph above. Perhaps someone could summarize it and make it a conclusion to the criticism section.

Also--aren't there other critics of public sociology out there? If so, wouldn't it strengthen the criticism section to include them alongside Deflem?

response to: editing Deflem's additions
[sorry, I initially did not see how to make additions to the discussion, and I started editing in the page -- I will make my comments below] --Deflem

1)

about "Most typically, public sociologists are leftist, sociological radicals of a predominantly Marxist variety.''

Response by Deflem: The leftist nature of public sociology refers to the Burawoy school of public sociology. Burawoy has written about this in at least two of his papers, the one appearing in from the Left and the one in Critical Sociology, where he refers to 'democratic socialism' and 'sociological marxism' as public sociology. True, not all public sociologists are necessarily marxist (also, not all marxists are not public sociologists), but clearly it is the Burawoy school that has led to the popularity of public sociology today. Incidentally, the term was orginally coined by Herbert Gans in a different meaning. I will put that in the entry.

2)

about "Sociologists of the world unite for a renascent civil society – a vibrant, participatory, global counter-hegemony!"...'' I do not believe that this adds to our understanding of the scope of public sociology.

Response by Deflem: This is a quote from Burawoy that clearly shows his marxism (the last line of the quote).

3)

Also--aren't there other critics of public sociology out there? If so, wouldn't it strengthen the criticism section to include them alongside Deflem?

Response by Deflem: Yes, there are quite a number of critics of public sociology, judging from the support I get. But few are as vocal as me, I suppose, and many agree with much or most of what I have written. Among the other critics, one might add James Moody, who has a relevant powerpoint online. I will add that to the entry if you wish.

The rest is OK. All in all, the entry is reasonably well balanced, not entirely what I wished for, but probably all I can expect.
 * That last is probably a good sign. As far as I can tell from hanging around here, we should all end up somewhat unsatisfied but willing to accept the results.  If I'm understanding you correctly, you want to distinguish betwenn Burawoy's "public sociology" and other uses of the term that you feel have no connection.  Is that right? Personally, I think that's an excellent idea.--Birdmessenger 18:56, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Revising the revisions...
Yes, there are at least two other usages of the terms that have no real connection to Public Sociology today: 1) public sociology as the term was originally coined by Herbert Gans, and 2) public sociology as it was used in the title of the book by Ben Agger. I will add both to the entry.

I also suppose, given the contentious nature of the debate surrounding the nature and objectives of public sociology, that some discointent from all sides on the entry may be the best indication that it is a good entry. :)

updates
I added the references to Herbert Gans and Ben Agger. Somebody had shifted part of the text, for reasons I cannot imagine, which I put back in its original spot. Perhaps this entry itself proves what a battle ground Public Sociology has become. --Deflem

R.B. Smith
I've removed the reference to "R.B. Smith" and the "public sociology alive" website, since it seems irrelevant to this page. Who is R.B. Smith? What has R.B. Smith written about public sociology beyond what is available on that website? What are the indicators, if any, that R.B. Smith has anything other than a virtual existence?

Whoever it is, the page seemed to be tongue-in-cheek. Lenin's sociological shoulders aren't giant. I couldn't tell if "RB" was praising Marxism as a resolution to the wayward scienticity of the twentieth century, or mocking the ideological idiocy that public sociology might well be. ;) Airumel 22:38, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

History and more
Added section on history of the term, to provide historical perspective. Added more on the variety of criticisms that have circulated. Changed the opening lines of this article to more accurately reflect one of the most common meanings of public sociology (see the "Theme Statement" of the 2004 ASA meetings).

public sociology today
Added a section on public sociology today, and changed scope to 'elaboration and diffusion' (a section which could itself be elaborated to include other visions of what public sociology is and how it should be pursued).

Given the fact that it was his ASA presidency that generated debate over public sociology, there is good reason to think that Burawoy's basic definition of public sociology constitutes the working definition of public sociology for a great many American sociologists (whether or not they agree with him that 'public sociology' should in fact be be promoted).

Furthermore, the definition currently included in the "public sociology today" section, and ascribed to Burawoy, was the personal statement Burawoy wrote prior to his election.

redefinition
Regarding this sentence: "It is less a body of empirically based methods and theories aimed at discovering how the world works, and more a movement that entails the idea that sociologists should tell us not just what is but what ought to be."

--i'll reword and source. removing that important element, and refocusing PS as some vagugely stylistic choice, is a dodge of what PS is really trying to do, whatever your opinion of it. PS is more than a style; it's about the content and purpose of sociology. will fix. Airumel 22:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

added the indication that public sociology is normative, to indicate that it is frequently not simply a stylistic choice, but a set of assumptions about what sociology ought to do -- namely, not simply produce knowledge that is limited to the academy, but seek to move beyond the academy to engage broader publics. that is the basic assumption common to nearly every understanding of public sociology.

reality check
This entry is becoming more and more absurd at times... In any case, public sociology is not normative because it entertains a conception of what sociology ought to be (which sociology would not do that?), but because it is explicitly engaged in promoting political-normative ideas and insert those ideas into the practice of sociology (hence, it is an activist sociology, not a form of sociological activism). --Deflem

-- "Reality" check? This entry started out absurd. Just a day or two ago, in fact, it was citing from a website whose supposed "author" does not appear to exist in anything other than a virtual fashion.

I deleted all references to the ridiculous assumption that most members of the ASA are proponents of public sociology and that such would be indicated because Burawoy got elected. There will be many reasons why he got elected. Also, most ASA members do not even vote. The turn-out in elections is usually just around 30%. --Deflem

-- Great, this is an excellent deletion. Let's make sure the entire entry is closely "checked" and submitted to the test of reality by making sure that each empirical claim is properly sourced.

check reality
The lines below were deleted from the criticism section, since they were without citation. If there are citations, great.

"Some critics of public sociology have charged that the promotion of public sociology undermines the academic aspirations of the discipline of sociology, claiming that public sociology represents little more than a very political version of "Marxism" in disguise, and suggesting that the debates over public sociology have resulted in a condition of "intellectual anarchy."

"Debates over public sociology have also led some to voice concern over the rise of an ostensibly "politicized" sociology within the American Sociological Association, worrying that the promotion of public sociologies has encouraged some professional sociologists to consider a departure from the ASA."

-- Asking for empirical verification in an entry on public sociology... I do think it's called irony. --Deflem

Citing reliable sources
The "irony" to which you refer is apparently connected to an unsubstantiated assumption that public sociologists are neither concerned with, nor constrained by, sociological norms that emphasize the importance of "empirical" research or the "empirical" substantiation of arguments. Yet the question as to whether those who promote or practice something called "public sociology" are (or are not) concerned with the "empirical" substantiation of their arguments is itself an *empirical* question. If you would like to make the case that they are not, and can provide reliable sources which clearly indicate this, then by all means go ahead. But that will require empirical substantiation, rather than one line slurs and misleading insinuations (which both violate the Wikipedia NPOV policy and impede the building of consensus as to how to best define a term that is undoubtedly already the subject of substantial contention).

Furthermore, let's suppose that the apparent assumption behind your statement about "irony" is correct (something that we can remain open on until you've made a better case for it). Even if it is correct, why would that somehow warrant any less concern with citation, or as you say, "empirical verification." The citation of reliable sources is a standard expectation for *any* Wikipedia article, no matter what the topic. Practice

-- Empirical validation for public sociology's lack of concern for empirical matters is amply provided by Burawoy. e.g., in his paper "For Public Sociology" he defines the knowledge of professional sociology as theoretical/empirical, not the knowledge of public sociology. In his letter in the Chronicle, he ridiculed the argument that academicians should search for the truth. -- A citation of sources is not necessarily a guarantee that anything useful is cited, especially not in this age when anything can be said in so many places. Even referreed writings are not without their flaws. Citation can also be misused as an authority argument. And who is to say what is relaible and what not, what are the criteria of reliability? Does public sociology have an answer to that? -- The point of view policy will be hard to maintain, in my mind, unless the entry would be written by somebody outside the debate on the pro's and cons of public sociology. Besides, Wikipedia is not an effort in public sociology, nor is this entry, at least not by all who have contributed. --Deflem 18:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC) -- P.S. I only now discovered how to sign my remarks. I will do so from now on for the sake of clarity, plain understanding, and a lack of anonymity. --Deflem 18:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

response to Deflem
1. You still have not provided any direct citations of (a) Burawoy's supposed definition of public sociology as non- or anti-empirical; or (b) his so-called "ridicule" of the search for truth. Rather, you've merely mentioned a couple of articles. On closer inspection I think you'll see that public sociology, from Burawoy's POV, is seriously dependent on professional sociology for its very existence. Professional sociology, on Burawoy's account, is at the very heart of things. See the article in Social Forces. If you want to criticize public sociology, that's fine. There's a lot of interesting and important issues to argue about. But you cannot just make stuff up. 2. Your point regarding citation of sources is fine, as for as it goes. Citation of sources places a minimal limit on the circulation of nonsense, but it does not, of course, guarantee truth, here or elsewhere. This is true of the scientific process itself. Yet citation is still fundamental to that process, as it is to the usefulness and accuracy of Wikipedia. For example, until just a few days ago, there seems to have been reference here to a website called "Public Sociology Alive." But that website is fairly clearly a farce. It's someones idea of a joke. To cite it here as if it were more than a web-based fiction seriously diminishes the usefulness of this article. Demand for 'citation of reliable sources' is meant to weed out such fictions. 3. It is true that the accuracy of the NPOV policy may be difficult to maintain. Nonetheless, the article should capture the range and substance of disagreement and controversy as best as it can. Wikipedia is indeed not an effort in public sociology. But the article is and should be an effort to accurately represent what public sociology is -- how it has been defined and understood by both critics and supporters alike. Practice 19:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

response by Deflem
I did not make stuff up. By Burawoy's own admission, professional sociology is about theoretical and empirical questions, public sociology is not. Even if public sociology is depedent on professional sociology, it would still imply that public sociology simply is not about such professional standards. (By the way, I do not accept the very demarcation Burawoy has introduced between these various kinds of sociology, but I had to here use these terms in order to make my argument).

You want the truth? This the truth: a quote from Burawoy when he says that according to Stanley Fish "We should just stick to the "search for truth and the dissemination of it through teaching."" And Burawoy articulates his position as follows: "Academics are living in a fool's paradise if they think they can hold on to their ivory tower, fashioned for another era, another world. For too long too many of us have been hiding behind academic freedom and university autonomy -- all in the name of truth. But the chickens are coming home to roost as the public is no longer interested in our truth, no longer prepared to subsidize our academic pursuits." In my opinion this is ridiculing the truth, possibly denying that it exists ("our truth").

-- Response: That is a contentious interpretation at best, and one that employs an intense hermeneutic of suspicion rather than attempting to see what might be behind the statement. I would read it not as a denial of truth, but rather as a criticism of the idea that knowledge should be pursued solely for its own sake. That idea, and not the denial of truth, seems to me closer to the heart of public sociology as Burawoy represents it. Practice 20:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I am glad to hear that standards of truth are still considered useful by Practice. I am however not responsible for comments and citations to or on other websites. There are now so many versions of public sociology that it will be hard to find agreement even among its proponents. The website mentioned was useful because it was at least clear in its political ambitions, more so than Burawoy, at least in most of his public appearances...

-- Response: By citing those other web sites you and others who participate in collectively writing this Wikipedia article take responsibility for assessing their content and authenticity. The website being referred to here ("Public Sociology Alive") does not seem to meet the basic standard which insists that a source be credible. That source was incredible in an incredibly obvious way. Making use of it damaged the credibility of this article. Practice 20:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Because how can one deny the marxist leanings of Burawoy's public sociology when he has articulated the project as socialism. In Critical Sociology, Burawoy writes: "We might say that critical engagement with real utopias is today an integral part of the project of sociological socialism. It is a vision of socialism that places human society, or social humanity at its organizing center, a vision that was central to Marx but that was too often lost before it was again picked up by Gramsci and Polanyi (Burawoy, 2003b). If public sociology is to have a progressive impact it will have to hold itself continuously accountable to some such vision of democratic socialism."

In From the Left, he writes: "Sociologists of the world unite for a renascent civil society – a vibrant, participatory, global counter-hegemony!"

In his teachings of "Sociology 101A: History of Sociological Theory", Burawoy discussed the works of "Adam Smith, Karl Marx, Fred Engels, Vladimir Lenin, Anotnio Gramsci, Frantz Fanon." This is not a marxist public sociology??? By the way,I think Burawoy has every right, of course, to be a marxist, but could he at least be honest about it!

I agree the wikipedia article should be as accurate as possible of course. Can we therefore please cite Burawoy accurately?

-- Response: There is a lot that might be criticized in the largely implicit argument you make here. For starters, to have one's students read Marx and Marxist thinkers is not, necessarily, to be a Marxist. There is a long and well-established tradition of engagement with Marx in American sociology, and not all sociologists that have engaged with Marx have been marxists. In other words, one's theoretical or political stance cannot so easily be read from a syllabus. That said, no one denies Burawoy's defense of a version of marxism. That is well-known and public. If you want to critique Burawoy's marxism, go right ahead! However, to suggest that because Burawoy defends a version of Marxism and also defends public sociology, public sociology must therefore be inherently Marxist -- that is a straightforwardly fallacious form of argument. Some "marxist" sociologists may be public sociologists, sure (although Burawoy is not one of them--not because he is not marxist, but because he is not a public sociologist!). But that does make all public sociologists marxists. Indeed, the most prominent public sociologists, and the names most closely associated with the actual work of public sociology, are clearly not marxist. So the simple equation of "public sociology" with "sociological scientism" is specious. That dog won't hunt. Practice 20:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, at least I am public on this board, by name and by my stance towards public sociology. --Deflem 20:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

beyond
I read only what is written.

"...to suggest that because Burawoy defends a version of Marxism and also defends public sociology, public sociology must therefore be inherently Marxist -- that is a straightforwardly fallacious form of argument."

I talk about Burawoy's public sociology, which is marxist. Again, here is the quote from Burawoy: "If public sociology is to have a progressive impact it will have to hold itself continuously accountable to some such vision of democratic socialism." I read only what is written. Other public sociologies I do not know, except for the earlier variations, which we are not discussing (much) today. Also, there are marxists who oppose public sociology.

"... to have one's students read Marx and Marxist thinkers is not, necessarily, to be a Marxist."

No, of course, not, but to have a course on "History of Sociological Theory" (not history of critical theory or history of marxism) include the likes of Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Gramsci does betray a marxist orientation.

"Some "marxist" sociologists may be public sociologists, sure (although Burawoy is not one of them--not because he is not marxist, but because he is not a public sociologist!)"

WHAAAT????? This is beyond funny. Far beyond.

--Deflem 21:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC) (publicly again!)

-->> This last point about Burawoy is actually a good one (as are a number of the others). Why not ask: What is a "public sociologist"? Answer: someone whose sociological work transcends or seeks to transcend the academy, and thereby seeks to engage wider public audiences. The vast majority of Burawoy's work does not fit that definition. To use his own terms, he is a "professional" and a "critical" sociologist, and not primarily a "public sociologist". Theoryhead 22:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Agger & Gans
My sense is that both Agger and Gans were advocates of what Burawoy calls "traditional public sociology" (writing sociological literature for an audience outside of academia), but weren't necessarily into the hands-on "organic public sociology" (community engagement and activism) that Burawoy seems more excited about. Have either Gans or Agger commented publicly on Burawoy's conception of public sociology?

Also, to Deflem and others who oppose Burawoy's brand of public sociology: what's your position on "traditional public sociology"?M. Frederick 12:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Wow, I am really surprised. Over a month and no change to this page.  Is public sociology dead?M. Frederick 07:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Applied sociology
This article currently treats applied sociology and public sociology as more or less the same thing. This is inaccurate, in my view. I would suggest splitting off Applied sociology into a separate article. Fine to cross-reference as appropriate. Thanks, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 05:44, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

 * I agree that these are not an identity. I would also venture to say that Clinical and Applied sociology are also different from one another, though the terms are frequently linked and conflated as they are here.  All could be subsumed under the term "Sociological practice", which currently redirects to this Applied sociology subsection.  Currentlty, the Applied sociology subsection contains little information so, if split, would be a stub article.  I'm not opposed to that action, but wonder if it might be an interim solution to move this page to "Sociological practice" with all three as subsections of that main article?  Meclee (talk) 16:15, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Agreed with split, this is something I mentioned in the peer review of this article. Will somebody split it now or do we need to tag it with the split? Regarding creating the "sociological practice" article, it could be a parent article, perhaps, but I don't think "public sociology" should be simply moved there. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

2018 time to update
Lots has happened since this article was created. New Wikipedia tools, for example, new Wikipedia community codes, new ideas about public sociology, new Wikipedians with sociological expertise. Who else is interested in updating this article?AnaSoc (talk) 21:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Public sociology


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nevada Museum of Art

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was keep. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:51, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nevada Museum of Art
Nominated as speedy, but clearly not a candidate for speedy deletion, so I moved it here. No vote from me--do we have a policy regarding museums? The institution clearly exists, and gets 13,600 Google hits (compare 500,000 for "Art Institute of Chicago", 166,000 for "Los Angeles County Museum of Art"). Meelar (talk) 05:58, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep The quality of the official web site and the design of the building should be reason enought. Reno only has 180,000 residents how many in LA and Chicago? Does using Google hits mean that small towns will never get something like a museum on wikipedia? Vegaswikian 06:21, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Hey, I'm asking you guys. ;) I only moved the thing from speedy deletion. Meelar (talk) 06:53, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * OK. In looking at that article I searched on the AAM and found a couple of other wikipedia entries that had that. Those articles are not much different in size to the NMA.  So, if NMA goes then you could make the same case for a lot of other museums.  Vegaswikian 07:07, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Personally I thought the over-widgeted, overdesigned, glitzy web page was worth nominating for web pages that suck. I actually had trouble finding things on it. It uses the "mystery meat" technique of not showing what your choices are until you choose them. But, hey, I won't hold that against it. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:14, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Notable museam. Klonimus 07:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, seems like it's a notable enough museum. --bainer 07:37, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, practically all full-size museums, colosseums, and arboretums are notable/interesting enough for an unlimited encyclopedia. Kappa 08:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. It being "the only American Association of Museums (AAM) accredited Art Museum in the state of Nevada." makes it notable in my book. Mgm|(talk) 08:38, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - it seems important Saopaulo1 09:07, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. N-Mantalk 15:31, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I don't think I've ever voted keep before. It feels weird.--Bucephalus 16:08, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Feels good, don't it? :)  Keep current article.  Original listing was little more than link spam. - Lucky 6.9 16:28, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Vegaswikian has already started expanding this article.  Can this be removed from VfD? - Lucky 6.9 18:07, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Looks like a substantial not-so-terribly-little museum. And unlike some other things I won't mention, art museums are very different from each other. Peeking at the website... oh, I'm so tempted to say something snarky about Maxfield Parrish but in fact if I were there I'd sorta like to see that exhibit. And an exhibit on pinhole photography sounds interesting. I am quite sure I wouldn't find exhibits on either of those at the Peabody-Essex Museum in Salem, nor the Elvehjem Museum of Art in Madison. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I see no reason to delete this valid museum.  RickK 05:00, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport

Former name
Is mentioning the former name in the opening paragragh really needed? It's in the history section. -james_anatidae 12:06, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation header
The header at the top of this page says:

For the airport in Atlanta, Texas, see Hall-Miller Municipal Airport.

I would like to know if there's a way we can fix this sentence; specifically the comma after "Texas" needs to be a semicolon. But the template doesn't allow this. Any comments?? Georgia guy (talk) 16:41, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Why would that comma need to be a semicolon? It's equivalent to the comma after Idaho in the previous note. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:09, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a greater pause than the comma after Atlanta. The comma after Atlanta is within the first part of this sentence. The comma after Texas separates the 2 parts; it needs a greater pause and thus should be a semicolon. The comma after Idaho in the previous note should be a comma because there's no similar reason. Georgia guy (talk) 20:24, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The pause after Idaho and the pause after Texas are exacttly the same. The pause after Atlanta is shorter because it just introduces a parenthetical.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:36, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The first sentence's grammar is different from the second because the second sentence has 2 levels of pauses. The short pause should have a comma and the second should have a semicolon. Giving commas to both of them would imply that they're the same level of pause. (The first sentence has only one pause level and so its comma is fine.) Georgia guy (talk) 22:40, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The grammar in both sentences is the same "For the airport in, see ." The second sentence includes commas around "Texas" because commas are required around state names after a city name in the middle of a sentence. Both of these situations call for a comma, not a semicolon. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:51, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * We use semicolons in place of commas when we need to separate phrases that have commas inside them. What am I getting wrong?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:01, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * That applies to commas in a list, not commas in a parenthetical like this.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:35, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Parenthetical?? Parentheses are . Where are there parentheses in this phrase?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:57, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * See https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/parenthetical A parenthetical phrase or remark is not necessarily written in parentheses.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:07, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you re-write the header so that it is in parentheses?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:12, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * No. There is no need. It is perfectly correct as is. I don't why you think it isn't, but you are WRONG. Please find somethong else to do.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:59, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

air canada
Recently, Air Canada added mainline service between Toronto and Atlanta and Atlanta and Montreal can someone add this? Sources are on Air Canada flight schedules. Editorforairport (talk) 20:40, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

First prefab section of Concourse D expansion to be transported to airport
Here is the AJC's article about First prefab section of Concourse D expansion to be transported to airport (subscription required). Rjluna2 (talk) 19:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Historical Airlines At HJAIA
There is a comment saying Korean Air was the first Asian carrier at Hartsfield in 1994. In a reference provided in the paragraph prior, it's clear that Japan Air Lines was actually the first one to serve Atlanta direct from Asia. 12.31.86.186 (talk) 17:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)


text:
User talk:NocNoc

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Welcome, !

Here are some useful tips to ease you into the Wikipedia experience:

Also, here are some odds and ends that I find useful from time to time:
 * First, take a look at the Wikipedia Tutorial, and perhaps dabble a bit in the test area.
 * When you have some free time, take a look at the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines. They can come in very handy!
 * Learn about some of the Wikipedia landmarks by trying our Wikipedia scavenger hunt!
 * If you need any help, feel free to post a question at the Help Desk
 * Wikipedia has a vibrant community of editors. The village pump is a great place to see the goings on.
 * Remember to use a neutral point of view!
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

 * Utilities
 * Cite your sources
 * Verifiability
 * Wikiquette
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 * Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense

Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can most easily reach me by posting on my talk page.

You can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~~~~.

Best of luck, and have fun!

ClockworkSoul 05:58, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Knee High boots
Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for your contributions -- it's nice to have new people around here. However, I need to know where you got the photograph that accompanies the article. Here is the image: If it's just taken from a website, it's probably going to have to be deleted, due to copyright law. However, if the image isn't under copyright or gfdl-ed, then it's fine. Please reply on my talk page. --Zantastik 06:48, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:137 3761.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:137 3761.jpg. I notice the image page currently doesn't specify who created the image, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created the image yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the image on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the image yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the image also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture then you can use GFDL to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the image qualifies as fair use, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other images, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of image pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. cohesion ★ talk 00:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:Knee-high boots.jpg

The file File:Knee-high boots.jpg has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern: "Unused, no clear source, probably no encyclopedic use."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.

Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and files for discussion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Kelly hi! 23:42, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

title: User talk:NocNoc


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New York conspiracy theory

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was BJAODN. – ABCD 23:27, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Talk:New York conspiracy theory
Yes, that's right - a talk page, and one with no article. It's also silly to the point of being pathetic, IMHO. Grutness|hello? 06:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, hah. That's funny. --Asriel86 06:13, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, you wouldn't believe it until you see it. --bainer 06:58, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Conspiracy is non-notable. Delete. Mgm|(talk) 08:39, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Is this true??? Lectonar 08:42, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, bordering on nonsense. Megan1967
 * Orphaned talk pages can usually be Speedied. android↔talk 12:39, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * This occurred to me, too. But from reading what it actually says, and from checking the deletion log for New York conspiracy theory, it appears that this isn't an orphaned talk page.  It's an article page that has been erroneously, and somewhat bizarrely, created as a talk page.  Uncle G 13:40, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
 * Delete, almost tempted to vote a BJAODN on this, but not really funny enough. Jokes there should be good ones. (Yes I know the "B" stands for "Bad") Sjakkalle 13:19, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree. For a one liner, it's pretty badly funny - in combination with the fact that it's a talk page w/no article, I'd say it qualifies for BJAODN.-- 8^D gab 18:39, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
 * This article is grammatically incorrect, presupposes the rather odd idea that a city is a sentient entity, and (both by its title and its content) presents something as a conspiracy theory when it would (the other problems aside) be simply an ordinary opinion. Delete. Uncle G 13:40, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
 * BJAODN. It made me laugh. Dave the Red (talk) 18:48, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Maybe I'm just being uptight, but I think it's kinda lame. Linuxbeak 21:41, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, no BJAODN. Uncle G's comments are valid.  This one-liner set off my lameness filter, not my laughter.  I'm almost tempted to write an article about how (even 250 miles away upstate) some reporters think we all are fans of the Yankees or Mets, whichever one is winning at the time.  But that's not encyclopedic either.  Barno 02:19, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Could have been speedied as patent nonsense, but doesn't deserve BJAODN. RickK 05:01, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * BJAODN How long did this talk page survive before being caught? If it was an article page, it would've been deleted in less than a day. - 69.216.232.184 00:31, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * You might want to look at these too. - 69.216.232.184 00:34, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Talk:Single-vowel alphabet
 * Talk:Derek Cheater
 * BJAODN - 68.72.118.244 21:52, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * BJAODN --cesarb 17:11, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * BJAODN. Got a nice little laugh out of this one. --Idont Havaname 03:23, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Even if the one line of content was on the article page, it would either qualify as original research or patent nonsense. -- M P er el ( talk 06:56, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * BJAODN. Instant vision of that New Yorker cover.  Plus really funny to anyone who's ever been to Plattsburgh.  --Mothperson 16:20, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * BJAODN - 68.72.114.32 21:47, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Ahh! Sockpuppet! Die! Pain! Horror! Nastiness! No vote. ugen 64 04:19, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.