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Talk:Joe Sakic

"Šakić?"
I don't see the justification for spelling his last name that way. It's not reflective of the overwhelmingly common spelling or pronunciation in his native Canada or just about anywhere else. Aottley 06:50, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, but given Joe's Croatian lineage, I think the Hrvatska spelling of his surname should remain in the article, along with an IPA rendering of it. My limited understanding of Slavic languages seems to say that his surname is actually pronounced Shak - EEtch (the way North Americans pronounce it, Sack - ick, can't possibly be correct), but since I don't know the IPA well enough to transliterate it, I'll just ask that someone else do it, please. Avalyn 03:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

 * That spelling shouldn't be in the lead section, because it's doubtful that his Canadian documents have it that way. I had put it in the early life section because that's the most likely spelling of the surname of his parents, whose original documents could have had it that way.
 * As far as the surname itself - the 'ic' at the end is definitely 'ić', the Slavonic patronymic. The S at the beginning could be a S or a Š, but the latter is more likely because the Croatian phone directory (imenik.ht.hr) gives 62 results for Sakić and 489 for Šakić. The ratio is 3:119 for the county where Imotski is. --Joy [shallot] 02:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In regards to having it at all: Unless there is a documented source proving that Sakic's family,, or ancestors, ever spelt it as Šakić, keep it out. I'm not saying that they didn't, and agree that it most likely was spelt Šakić in Croatia, but we need a source to prove it. So until then, don't add it back. Kaiser matias 04:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems fair enough. Kevlar67 23:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

- --necronudist 09:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have been unable to find any credible sources with that spelling of Joe Sakic's name, especially in regards to an official spelling. Jmlk 1  7  04:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

 * He was born in Canada, so I really doubt his name is spelled with Slavic accents. However, if his father was born in former Yugoslavia, surely his is. So we can conclude that originally his name was spelled that way, but now it losts its Slavic accents. --necronudist 20:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Just because someone is born in a country whose language does not have the same letters, that does not mean that a name has to lose them. If I would be born in North America or wherever you prefer, I would keep being "Hernández" and not "Hernandez". But I think few people understand this point. Escorpión Canalla 11:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I bet many more people actually do understand. But I have yet to meet, nor find anyone who keeps accents from their ancestral homeland beyond a tilde or accent such as you have written.  That's not entirely OR, but no NHL site, nor team site uses them.  Jmlk  1  7  04:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Because they don't have it on their keyboards and they're not going to bother themselves to copy and paste every time they have to write Šakić or other name. You can find lots of Croatian or Serbian websites where they write Joe Šakić (even though he's Canadian), because they do have those accents. There's a lot to talk about this... By the way, in Finnish, German, Dutch, Croatian, Slovenian (etc.) Wikipedias they put the accents. Escorpión Canalla 10:10 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, those Wikipedias do because they commonly use the accents in their everyday language, alphabet, and writing. Jmlk  1  7  10:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not all of them. German, Dutch or Finnish don't have those accents in their languages. But this thing about the names is funny. You can find here in the English Wikipedia Peter Šťastný, but his son is Paul Stastny. I don't get it. Escorpión Canalla 11:35 19 January 2008 (UTC)

They're not all accents! Š is its own letter different than "S." It would be almost like calling "John" "Kohn", "J" and "K" are different letters. Just because they look similar or even sound similar doesn't change the difference. EZC195 24 January 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezc 195 (talk • contribs) 11:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This is ROFL: http://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Steven_%C5%A0aki%C4%87 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.47.34.86 (talk) 15:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Those characters can not be on his official papers because Canada does not recognize them. So even if his parents wanted it spelt like that, they would have no choice but to spell it Sakic. EZC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.250.153.138 (talk) 12:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm all for diacritics, special characters, whatever when it makes sense. Sakic was born in Canada and lived in Canada all his life. There is no mention of his name being Šakic anywhere. Probably there is no Š in his legal papers, so... Look at what other wikipedias do: Džo Sakiks.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 15:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

inconsistency of birthplace
isn't there some way to make this conflicting information more coherent? between the lines of text and the tet in the info boxes, this could be much more consistent. is there a source for his birthplace? -- Denstat 05:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The NHL lists him as being from Burnaby, but other sources, such as Here, say Vancouver. However, Burnaby is part of the Greater Vancouver Regional District, and for all intents and purposes, would be considered Vancouver to most outsiders. Its a lot like saying your from Toronto, but really from York. Kaiser matias 23:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I also just read the Encyclopedia of British Columbia, which states Burnaby. So until it can be proven otherwise with something as official, I'm going to delete the Vancouver reference. Kaiser matias 20:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Croatia or Yugoslavia
Over the last few days, numberous users have been chaning Sakic's ancestery from Croatia to Yugoslavia and back. All this time, there has never been a source for any of these edits. Well, I did a simple Google search for "Joe Sakic Croatia," and came up with several sources stating his parents came from Croatia. Yes, they left what was called Yugoslavia, but if you do your research, Yugoslavia was not one state; as it says on the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia article (where Sakic's parents would have left from), "the state was divided into six Socialist Republics, and two Socialist Autonomous Provinces that were part of SR Serbia." It is like saying that a Polish immigrant at the turn of the century was Russian, German or Austrian. They weren't, it just was the country ruling over them. So, unless anyone can prove that Sakic is not Croatian, but Yugoslav (which is a blanket term for all South Slavs, Croats included), don't revert again. Kaiser matias 21:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It is very similar to Wayne Gretzky's heritage. He's of Polish background and his grandparents were Polish immigrants from a village which is now located in Belarus. It was a part of the Russian Empire at the time. This, however, does not classify him as being Russian or Belorussan, just Polish. As for Sakic, it should have been stated that his parents came from Yugoslavia, not Croatia. Yugoslavia was formed of several states, but they were NOT independent countries. Croatia was NOT an independent country at the time when his parents came to Canada. It was part of Yugoslavia.

Norum 22 December 2006

That is a valid point, with a very good analogy. However, according to the article Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which would be the Yugoslavia of Sakic's parents, the state was divided into 6 socialist republics. It is similar to the former Soviet Union. It had several republics that were nominally independent, however all shared a unifying government. I'm going to make a change that should clarify the situation.

Speaking of the Soviet Union. Let's take Antropov and Ponikarovsky for example. Antropov is not a Kazakh. He's a Russian player born in the former Kazakh SSR. It does say he was born n Ust-Kamenogorsk, U.S.S.R. now Kazakhstan. Same goes for Ponikarovsky. He's Ukrainian, but it also specifies he was born in Kiev, U.S.S.R., now Ukraine. I think the way you have reverted to is good. Thanks.

Norum 24. Dec. 2004

Glad we've reached a consensus on this. However, it seems some people still do not like it. To whomever keeps changing this, there are reliable sources. The NHL reference is a notable one. And his speaking Croatian, which while a faulty point, is a good indicator he is/was Croatian. So simply put, stop changing this. Kaiser matias 21:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not the one who is doing this Norum 24.dec.2006

I'm not accusing you of doing this, don't worry. It's random users without accounts who seem to not care about any established facts. Kaiser matias 23:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

GA Review
I had to fail this for the following reasons: So, it fails criterion 1c, and ceriterion 1 in general, among others. i would suggest a general expansion on his playing career, you guys can do fat better than that. this is quite heavily referenced though, so despite what I said in number 2, I really don't have a problem with that.-- Wizardman 16:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The lead is too short and the structure of it needs to be greatly impoved. See WP:LEAD.
 * 2) No references in Quebec, but more importantly,
 * 3) the article has no paragraph structre, it's mostly 1 or 2 sentence chunks strewn everywhere.

Full Name
I can't find any source stating that his full name is indeed Joeseph Steven Sakic. If someone can get a source, that would be excellent. Kaiser matias 00:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know how it works in USA but in Sweden you can simply contact authorities or some websites. Try this or the NHLPA. --Krm500 00:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Just rememberd that ESPN usually has full names of sports guys. Once again thanks. Kaiser matias 00:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

New source added
I just added Sakic's HHOF Legends of Hockey profile into the external links. There's some interesting info there that isn't included in our wikipedia article, if anyone wants to take a look and integrate some of it in ColtsScore 07:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I used that site extensively for the the article. Just never thought of putting it up in the external links section. Good call. Kaiser matias 14:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

 * GA review (see here for criteria)

 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
 * 1) It is stable.
 * 2) It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
 * a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
 * 1) Overall:
 * a Pass/Fail:
 * a Pass/Fail:

A very good article and easily passes the GA criteria. Just a few small things which aren't really required but will look a bit neater on the article IMO.
 * Comments
 * When I tend to write in Sports Bios I tend to use the template just below the heading, for example for the Colorado Avalanche section you could put this:

Just below the section heading, this way the reader will be able to find the Avalanche link much more easily without going through the main body text to find the link. You could also try it with the Internation Career section, but link it to the Candian Ice Hockey team. Done that

 * In the lead sentence you have the birth details, but what I tend to do is not have the country in the PoB part - if he was born in the same country as his nationality then just put the location and state. So it would look like this, (born [...] Burnaby, British Columbia) rather then (born [...] Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada). Fixed that

 * For the succession boxes try and use and  headings and sort each success under those two headings Not really sure what you mean by that, so I've left it

 * And get Image:Sakic3.jpeg on the Wikipedia Commons as it has the appropriate license. I have a lot of photos with the same license, and need to put them all up

Beside that, well done for producing an excellent article and good luck with it's further improvement.--Phill talk Edits 11:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for passing the article. It was a lot of work getting it here, and I'm glad that it finally made it. Now on to FA-status. Kaiser matias 02:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

All-Star statistics
I suppose I can move the all-star stats to the career statistics section. The reason I originally removed it was because I haven't seen it in most player pages, but it does seem noteworthy so I'll figure something out. Sportskido8 07:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's noteworthy in the records he has set at the games. Jmlk  1  7  07:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

What a great job you're doing with this article, Sportskido8. I just have one thing to say: I don't really think that it should be mentioned in Wikipedia that Sakic listed Tiger Woods or Ray Romano as people he'd have golf with. And I think the All-Star statistics are noteworthy enough to be mentioned, even if it is in prose only. Thanks for your work here.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 15:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem. With the golf thing I guess I was trying to make "personal life" bigger since it's kind of small, but it doesn't need to be there. I may get rid of that. Sportskido8 16:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to say it's good to see someone taking control of the article after I had to let go midway through its FA nomination. And making it look much better than I could do as well. Good show. Kaiser matias 17:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hear hear! Jmlk  1  7  07:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Getting closer to FA
Once all the prose and the grammar are dealt with, I think this can go up for an FA-nomination. It shouldn't be hard to fix any objections that it gets. Sportskido8 06:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Once again, thanks for fixing up where I left off. I feel kind of bad for just abandoning it in the middle of the first nomination, but didn't have much choice. Kaiser matias 06:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's alright. It's tough to get it in on the first nomination anyhow. Sportskido8 07:45, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Common...anybody has better photo than this one?Virenque 09:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems all has been fixed, and nomination has begun. Jmlk  1  7  09:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's great that we're getting this up for FA again. At this time I am doing a complete review of this article to identify any potential manual of style issues. Two quick notes that I noticed: First is English vs. British (in this article, favour vs. favor, centre vs. center, etc.) - which are we using? Also, I believe the manual of style states using en dashes  in years, including years in situations where we'd say 2005–06. Right now, the wikilinks are to the season titles which do not use en dashes... should we simply change the appearance of our wikilinks or should we aim to have the article titles themselves overhauled? I'm not familiar with the policies or standards here. -- Sesame ball Talk 00:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And he played centre with the Nordiques, and he plays center with the Avalanche. -- Gene Nygaard (talk) 20:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

For the first question, I would guess British/Commenwealth spelling would be better, seeing Sakic is Canadian. In a personal matter, I'm Canadian and a major contributor to the article, so it helps me to use British spelling. About the en dash. I am not entirely certain about how that goes over through articles, but I am certain that the article titles should stay as is. Hope that clarifies everything. Kaiser matias 00:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comment. It seems you are correct - on all the articles on the NHL awards featured list I checked, it uses the  formatting in seasons with the wikilink back to the article title (which uses the "-"), so I'll just go ahead and do the same in this article. -- Sesame ball Talk 23:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Just on a pedantic point, there is no such thing as 'British English', it is simply 'English'. American English is the different language. Thanks. 131.111.195.8 (talk) 13:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

New questions on number format and dashes in adjective phrases
Any comments of course appreciated. And if I've changed anything incorrectly please just let me know and I'll go fix it. -- Sesame ball Talk 00:59, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Format on numbers (e.g., eighty-three goals vs. 83 goals) and where to use them - the article used both formats in different places, and I changed season and post-season references to number format. I kept other mentions the same (e.g., "four goals in a game", etc.). I don't know if there is a hockey standard or anywhere in the WP:MOS that covers this.
 * 2) Format on adjective phrases (e.g., "100 point season" vs. "100-point season") - the former is what the article uses. I didn't change this yet, but I assume the latter is what is grammatically appropriate. I couldn't find an example in the Wayne Gretzky FA, but the Dominik Hasek FA does use "xx-win season".

Ref probleme
Hello.

The ref #30 doesn't work anymore. --77.195.83.235 (talk) 23:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Exact date of achieving 800th career assist
Does anyone know when (the exact date) Sakic achieved his 800th career assist? Must have been in December 2002. Thanks! -- Thomas ✉ 19:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 7 March 2003 against Tampa Bay Lightning.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 09:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot!!! -- Thomas ✉ 22:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

All star game 2008
Sakic was the 5th most voted forward for the Western Conference all star roster, but did not play because of his injury of course. Shouldn't this be mentioned? And how?--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 15:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Well, he wouldn't have been a certain pick anyway - only the top three voted players are picked for each conference as starters. Though I don't doubt he would have been included anyway. 131.111.195.8 (talk) 20:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It might be mentionable... Jmlk  1  7  21:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Nickname
Saving nickname for future use in prose. Burnaby Joe, Super Joe, Mr. Clutch -Djsasso (talk) 00:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

1985-85
" ... the 1985-85 season ... " should either be " ... the 1985 season ... " or else at least one of the years is wrong. Art LaPella (talk) 04:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That was simply a typo that has somehow escaped several reviews of the article. I've fixed it now. Kaiser matias (talk) 05:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Sentence fragment
But while Sakic enjoyed success on the ice, his team faced a tragedy on the night of December 30, 1986. I would've reworded myself, but not really sure how to. Pie is good  (Apple is the best)  01:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

no 500
Hey, I just noticed that it doesn't mention when "Burnaby" Joe as we call him scored his 500th goal. It mentions his 400th and his 600th but not his 500th, which actually occurred for Joe in hometown Vancouver. It was a pretty big deal out here. I think the 500th goal should be included rather than the 400th goal? comments? TotallyTempo (talk) 07:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In the Milestones section, it says "His 500th career goal came against the Vancouver Canucks on December 11, 2002." Kaiser matias (talk) 17:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Name Pronounciation
I understand why people want to leave his named spelt "Sakic" but stating that it is pronounced IPA: /ˈsɑːkɨk/ is simply dumb, so I have removed it. IPA: /ˈsɑːkɨk/ is a pronounciation that became common after a decade of broadcasters not being able to pronounce his name properly. That is not how his last name is pronounced and that is not how his family pronounces his last name. Joe tried to correct people earlier in his life, but they could never pick it up.Ezc 195 (talk)

 * The pronunciation was sourced and is pretty much the accepted pronunciation. It belongs there.  Please don't remove it again unless a consensus is reached to remove it.  -- Luke4545 (talk) 16:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

 * The source is not legit. It's just a broadcasters guide to how they pronounce the name.  I spoke to Joe's uncle yesterday.  I usually see Joe's dad once a year.  I don't know what better source there is than his family.  I would not bring it up, except it's embarassing to suggest the name is pronouced like that.  It's like having the last name "Smith" and having people pronounce it as "Smutt", just because people do it doesn't mean it's proper.  Wikipedia should not promote an incorrect pronounciation.  As for the spelling of his parents' last name, it should revert to the spelling on their Yugoslav citizenship, not "Sakic."Ezc 195 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC).

 * The source is not legit? But I'm sure that you apparently speaking to Sakic's uncle is legit, right?  Hell, while we're at it, maybe I should claim I spoke to Sakic himself yesterday.  There's no way to confirm any of that.   The source given for the pronunciation on Sakic's page is USA Today, which is considered a reliable source on Wikipedia.  As far as the spelling of his name, that's been discussed near the top of this discussion page.  -- Luke4545 (talk) 15:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, the source was actually sourced to the NHL Broadcasters Association which I'd also assume to be a reliable source. Unless there's a credible source that says otherwise (and no, "I talked to Joe yesterday and he said ..." is not credible) then I think the current sourced version should remain. - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Even if it turns out to not be how they pronounce it, it now falls under the most common usage guideline. -Djsasso (talk) 16:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Verifiability is the requirement. We can verify via USA Today, a reliable source that this is the pronounciation.  Your claim that you have spoken with Sakic's family on this is not verifiable, and therefore not reliable.  Thus, the source provided has greater legitimacy than your word.  If you can find another reliable source with what you consider to be the proper pronounciation guide, then we can look into which version is superior. Resolute 16:07, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * The pronounciation is wrong, I'm just saying why not leave it out. By showing it you are promoting an incorrect pronounciation.  I am proposing that we just leave it as being spelt "Sakic" with no pronounciation.  That way it is not promoting the more common (but incorrect way).  You don't need a pronounciation guide if you want to pronounce it as "Sa-kick".  I am only making a fuse because his family does not like it pronounced that way.  Imagine if your last name was pronounced incorrectly and a popular website promoted it.  Anyways, what would be an acceptable source?  Joe's uncle (Branko) has wine at my aunt's house everyday.  Do you want me to videotape him saying the name and post it on here?Ezc 195 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:22, 23 January 2009 (UTC).
 * Find another source. It must meet the reliable sources guideline in order to verify it.  Once you do that, we'll remove it.  If what you think is the correct pronunciation is in fact the correct pronunciation, then there should be plenty of sources to back it up. - Rjd0060 (talk) 16:29, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Wouldn't the current pronunciation still remain, though, given the common usage guideline that Djsasso mentioned above? Even if the pronunciation currently shown in the article may be technically incorrect, it's still the most commonly-used pronunciation.  For example, the technically-correct pronunciation of Maria Sharapova's last name is "Shuh-rah-poh-vuh."  However, it's most-commonly pronounced "Share-uh-poh-vuh," which I believe is the pronunciation given in that article.  -- Luke4545 (talk) 16:39, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. However, there would at least be a basis for argument and discussion if he found another reliable source to dispute this one with. - Rjd0060 (talk) 16:48, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Yeah you need to find a better source. The threshold is verifiability, not truth.-Wafulz (talk) 16:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Very good. I almost have a source.  Hopefully I can get it by the end of the day, if not by the end of the week.  As for the Sharapova comment, I would argue that most people pronounce it correctly, only a minority in North America do not.  Those living in Europe and of close European decent in NA pronounce it correctly.  That is why it is best to state proper pronounciation as opposed to "common" ones, as "common" pronounciations can vary from region to region (For example, Australians, Americans, and Canadians all speak English, but pronounce many words differently).  Take care!Ezc 195 (talk) 16:58, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Actually, I've heard a lot of audio of people in other countries pronounce Sharapova's name the same way many people in North America do. I would say the minority are those who pronounce it the other way (even though it is technically the correct pronunciation).  By the way, may I ask how you're going about finding the reliable sources for the pronunciation of Sakic?  -- Luke4545 (talk) 17:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Alright here is the link for discussion. Joe gives two pronounciations: "Sa-keech" which is a Serbian variant (His family is Croatian, so they do not use it).  The second is "Sha-keech" which is the Croatian variant, and you will notice he puts more emphasis on this pronounciation (he is showing the comparision, depending on which ethnicity you are).  The fact that "Sa-kick" is common should hold no weight.  The page shows "Joseph" when clearly "Joe" is more common.  Why?  Because Joseph is the proper name.  I would like you all to think about if your name was constantly mispronounced, surely you would not want the "common" pronounciation to be used.  Wikipedia uses sources to try and provide the most correct information possible.  This is the correct way HE pronounces his name and should be used out of respect.  I'm interested in your opinions.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiyT0ADyxrw  Ezc 195 (talk) 17:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Sakic is pronounced as Sack-kick. GoodDay (talk) 18:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No that is not correct. I have clearly posted a superior source (Joe Sakic) compared to ("US Today").  All Slavic people pronounce it correctly.  Even the French (in France, not Quebec) can pronounce it correctly and they hate anything not French.  Is my source credible?Ezc 195 (talk) 18:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Actually looking at that clip it appears that he is listing off the incorrect ways people have pronounced it. Its not even the full interview, just a clip that has no context. And I would note that the article name is Joe not Joseph. The first line is showing the full version, but for article titles its always the most common name, even if its not their real name ie Tiger Williams. -Djsasso (talk) 18:39, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Are you kiding me? This is flying in the face of logic.  I really don't know what else to do, I think it's just stuborness.  What exactly do you need?  The entire clip?  Should I bring him to your door?  Everyone I know calls Steve Yzerman, Stevie Y.  This is far more common in Canada than his real name.  Should we start changing that too?  Just tell me what you guys need.  Ezc 195 (talk) 18:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is that in that clip you can't tell if he is listing the correct ones or wrong ones. Especially since right before it they list off a bunch of other ones in a graphic. I actually don't know anyone in my part of Canada that calls him Stevie Y, most just call him Yzerman. That's the problem with going with unsubstantiated information, its all just biased personal opinion. We need multiple reliable published sources prooving otherwise, considering there are thousands of such references for the version you don't accept. -Djsasso (talk) 18:49, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand your side. But I think you must agree that these other sources are not from Joe or any sort of academic source that would be qualified in pronounciations.  The NHL broadcasters' association simply includes what is most common among broadcasters, not what is right.  Anyone of of Croatian/Serbian/Bosnian/Slovenian origin can tell you that the two pronounciations he used were the Serbian and Croatian versions.  Notice these versions are not the common "Sa-Kick", so why would they even come up?  I'm working on getting the full clip, but there is a problem with NHL copyright (I have contacted Vic Lomardi and he assures me I am correct).  If he comes to Canada, I'll get his uncle to get him to say his name on CBC afterhours.  There would then be a full clip on the internet.  I really don't know what else you guys need.  Sakic is called "quoteless" Joe for reason as he barely says anything in interviews. Please excuse my frustration.  My grandfather came to Canada with Joe's father and I had the pleasure to meet Joe a number of years ago.  He is considered a hero among Canadian-Croatians, so the proper pronounciation of his name becomes a personal issue.  Almost a sense of pride.Ezc 195 (talk) 18:58, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I too, don't understand the foreign language pronouncement thingy. To an English reader, it makes no sense. GoodDay (talk) 19:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * One other thing to note, is words can change pronunciation in different languages, CAN-EN and US-EN pronunciation might be Sa-Kick while the Serbian/Croatian language ones might be the version you suggest. And being that this is an english version of wikipedia we would go with the english ones. I am not saying this is necessarily the case with his name, but it is with other names. -Djsasso (talk) 19:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not even fighting for the correct Serbo-Croatian. I simply want the incorrect one off.  People who know that it is pronounced "Sha-keech" might come on here and think that it is not.  I'm simply pushing for a more "neutral" position.  I think there should be no "Sa-kick" IPA shown, so people can interpret (Sha-keech or Sa-kick) however they want.  But by keeping the incorrect "sa-kick" you might have people go from pronouncing his name correctly to incorrectly, thinking wikipedia is showing the rightful pronounciation.  I am pushing for no IPA for the first line, not the correct one.  To Djsasso, I completely understand.  However, usually when going from language to language, the pronounciation stays the same, but the spelling changes.  In English, Sakic would become Shakich.  Marian had the chance to change it to that, but "Shakich" would look embarrasing compared to "Sakic".  It would be like changing Smith to Swigenhogen.Ezc 195 (talk) 19:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * But I've never heard his name pronounced as Sha-keech. GoodDay (talk) 19:29, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's irrelevant. It is the proper way he pronounces the name.  I just want the incorrect IPA off.  That's all.  I think it continues to promote an incorrect pronounciation.  Imagine if Joe was a Frenchman?  It would considered racist to mispronounce his name on purpose.  The IPA is misleading.  If people want to pronounce his name "Sa-kick" than so be it, but wiki should not be promoting an incorrect pronounciation.  English wiki respects French names like "Gagner" (which isn't converted to Gahdg-nr in English).  I think a classy guy like Joe Sakic deserves the same respect.  It should be left neutral at least, no IPA.  Why isn't Jagr pronounced "Jay-gr", because people respect the true pronounciation of the name (Ya-gr).  Joe deserves the same respect, he's just too nice of guy to pick a fight over it.  Ezc 195 (talk) 19:33, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If all that you want done is the removal of the IPA pronounciation, I would be for that. It would not change the content of the article at all, so shouldn't be a problem. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:53, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's all I want. IPAs should be used for showing correct pronounciation across languages, not for showing an incorrect but common one.  EDIT: I would also like (originally Šakić, IPA: [ˈʃakiʨ][9]) change to (Šakić in Croatian, IPA: [ˈʃakiʨ][9]) or (Croatian: Šakić, IPA: [ˈʃakiʨ][9]).  "Originally" implies his family has changed the pronounciation, which really can't be proven.  "in Croatian" is correct and allows for the possibility of them keeping the original pronounciation or changing it to "Sa-kick" (they haven't, but it gives it more of a neutral feel).  Are there any objections to simply removing the first IPA (and not replacing it) and changing "originally" to "in Croatian"?  I apologize if I was too quick to change things on my own, I'm very new to actually trying to edit wikipedia.  I now realize there is a procedure in place.  Take Milan Lucic (Serbian) for example.  His name is "Lu-cheech" not "Lu-kick".  (talk) 20:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Retirement
Before we make 'big changes', let's wait until he officially announces it (on July 9). GoodDay (talk) 23:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I was starting to have second thoughts about this. Its probably going to be heavily edited in the coming days as people try to change the page saying his is retired. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:17, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the same thing will be happening at Colorado Avalanche & Template: Colorado Avalanche roster. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

(sighs) It's a sad thing when players as classy as Joe Sakic hang them up.  Ravenswing  07:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It was inevitable, but I was holding out hope that he would stick around long enough to captain Team Canada at the 2010 Olympics. That would have been a way to go out, especially when it is in your hometown. Kaiser matias (talk) 13:28, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It really depends on what report you are going on, a number of reports I have heard have talked about if he was going to be announcing his retirement he wouldn't have waited since he said a few weeks ago he had already made his mind up. Some reports think he is going to be announcing that this is his final year and that he signed a contract and the reason for waiting was to see what kind of money was left after the FA Frenzy. -Djsasso (talk) 14:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My guess is, he chose to wait until after his 40th birthday. Scott Niedermayer, you may get the captaincy in 2010 Olympics. GoodDay (talk) 19:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Now it is official. What a shame to see such a great hockey player retire. Now going to have to touch up the article a bit, it looks like it could use some work. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

(sighs twice) Mm, just saw the video again of the Avs winning the Cup in 2001 and Joe immediately handing the Cup off to Ray Bourque. Now I saw Jean Beliveau play, and I saw Jean Ratelle play many a time, and Yzerman and Esposito and Delvecchio and others like them, but if Joe Sakic doesn't stand alone in terms of skill, loyalty and class, I don't know of any center I've seen in my lifetime who surpassed him.  Ravenswing  07:44, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Calder voting results
Just so we don't clutter up the edit history of the page, and have a better means to flesh it out:, while I personally think the voting results are more appropriate for the season article (which suffer from a lack of detail as is), I will agree it can be used here, but don't think it needs to note extra things like Linden, their ages, and so on. I made some attempt here, let me know what you think. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:52, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Joe Sakic


text:
Gyan

GYAN, Gyān, Gyaan or Gyan may refer to:

People

 * Asamoah Gyan (born 1985), Ghanaian footballer
 * Baffour Gyan (born 1980), Ghanaian footballer
 * Christian Gyan (1978-2021), Ghanaian footballer
 * Gyan Evans (born 1960), Australian musician
 * Gyan Prakash Pilania (born 1932), Indian social reformer
 * Gyan Prakash (born 1952), historian of modern India
 * Gyan Singh (Fijian politician)
 * Gyan Singh (Indian politician)
 * Kiki Gyan (1957-2004), Ghanaian musician

Other uses

 * Jnana, a Sanskrit word that roughly translates to 'knowledge' in English
 * Global Youth Action Network, a youth empowerment organization
 * Gyan (album), the debut album by Gyan Evans

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Gyan


text:
Talk:Derek Sanderson

Jeter name "has been reported"
I added a note that the report that Derek Jeter was named after him is incorrect, as Jeter was named after his father, Sanderson Charles Jeter. Jeter has stated that 'Sanderson' is a common name in his family.

Normally, incorrect information like this "has been reported" item would simply be removed from an article. But since this is widely reported, it seems better to leave it here, with the notation that it is incorrect. T-bonham (talk) 08:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * The issue was addressed extensively two years ago. There were reliable sources indicating it was correct.  There has not been a single reliable source contradicting it.  If you do have any, feel free to post it, but until then, we should go with what published sources state.    Ravenswing  14:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Actually, there is an official source now, from a 2006 interview at MLB.com. He says the following:

 * Q: Who were you named after? If you were you named after the hockey player Derek Sanderson, who was the hockey fan in your family?
 * -- Tony V., Deer Park, N.Y.

 * Derek: Actually, I was named after my father, Sanderson Charles Jeter.

 * Dgothe (talk) 14:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Jeter reversions
I don't suppose there's any way this could be tabled until the matter is resolved over on the Derek Jeter page, is there? Ravenswing 01:57, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Something odd that could go into the arcticle
Sanderson assisted on Bobby Orr's stanly Cup-winning goal. Sanderson's jersey number, I read somewhere, was 16. Orr's jersey number way 4. 4 times 4 is 16. 24.83.3.54 02:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's the kind of invented "trivia" that should not be in the article. No doubt you could also total up their respective birthdates as integers and discover that the sum is equal to the square root of Phil Esposito's and John Bucyk's birthdates, but that's likewise not pertinent.    Ravenswing ' 12:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Sources? And using Wiki as Advertising?
Where are the sources for this article? It reads more like self-promotion than an encyclopedia article in several spots, especially the last paragraph: "where he invests for young athletes and high net worth individuals in ways that maximize returns while investing conservatively, and emphasizing the privacy of the investors."

I mean c'mon! That's blatant advertising copy. Maybe Wiki should charge for the air time! It really does only serve to diminish the stature of the individual and demean the article to conclude it with such crass and self-serving business promotion. Very, very tacky indeed.

"Derek Is Here"
Does anyone remember that in his jumping to the WHA? There was some unrelated advertising campaign then or not long beforehand which said "Eric is here". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 15:34, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Screwed Up Edits
I tried to add the official website for Derek Sanderson and somehow things got completely screwed up. Can I just get rid of all edits I have made. User is 210usa Thanks, Jeff Sullivan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210usa (talk • contribs) 21:24, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The edits have been reverted. The website has been added to the infobox as well. --Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 14:32, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Derek Sanderson


text:
Talk:Glen Sather

Untitled
quote: "...to five Stanley Cups in six Finals appearances..."

Didn't he coach the oilers to FOUR cups in FIVE appearances?

J. Crocker 04:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC) There are two issues at hand here.

A. Did he "coach" the team to all titles. Technically no, but the article was altered to say "at the helm in various duties" which would be accurate. B. Edmonton did in fact win 5 of 6 finals appearances with him "at the helm" but technically as the coach the 4 of 5 as you said.

Being unable to read the original quote beyond what is listed above, it is impossible to validiate or debunk it. Bongi22 (talk) 23:51, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

This is easily one of the most biased pages I've seen on wikipedia. It refers to "great moves" and "great drafts" while pointing out example of players he's signed and drafted. I'm not going to make any changes but I think it's completely ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stjonnypopo (talk • contribs) 16:41, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Longest Tenured GM?
Is he really the longest tenured gm? Hasn't he only been with The Rangers since 2000? I don't know much about hockey, but Hasn't George McPhee been with the Caps 10 years? 70.108.218.204 07:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I no longer see this statement on the wiki page. But to clarify the question asked, Lou Lamoriello of the New Jersey Devils has been the G.M. since 1988. Clearly the longest tenured gm. Being unable to read the original statement, my guess is that they were trying to say he had been a General Manager longer than anyone. But as that was split between two teams, I do not believe the phrase "longest tenured" would be appropriate. Edmonton Oilers 1980-2000 then Rangers 2000-2010. Bongi22 (talk) 23:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Rookie Card?

Anyone have an idea of a price on a good condition 1967-68 Topps hocley card? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.118.98.235 (talk) 03:33, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Glen Sather


text: Talk:Denis Savard

title: Talk:Denis Savard


text:
Talk:Serge Savard

drunk driving
If sentence was expected in March 2005, what happened ?

-- Beardo 23:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Businessman
When did he start his career as a businessman ? (And when did he finish active involvement with hockey?) -- Beardo 23:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I will remove the "(father of Marc Savard)" link in the bio, since the link points to Marc Savard from Ottawa, ON, (Boston Bruins player) whose father is named Bob and is who not related to Serge Savard. Serge Savard's son might be named Marc, but the wiki link is misleading.

Spinarama
Anybody has a good source for the Savardian Spinarama/Spin-o-rama? The link used as reference only uses the term Spinarama, and does not discuss the apparent confusion between André and Serge Savard as originator of the move. Saveur (talk) 03:25, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Serge Savard


text:
Talk:Ryan Cooley

Untitled
ryan cooley is dead hot.--71.226.212.187 (talk) 18:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

from a close fan kay
1:36 pm[www.uglypeople.com]

This page lists all about Ryan Cooley. Does it need to be a stub? I would take it off, but I don't want to do it prematurely.

I love Ryan Cooley- Kristen.

Recent Degrassi events
Ryan's character died in the most recent episode of Degrassi. Is this relevant to this stub? It would be easier if it were expanded but unfortunately it's a stubbly little article.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wflan (talk • contribs) 22:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC).
 * That sounds like kind of a spoiler, don't want to spoil the series for people who haven't watched it. Tyciol 19:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

MUSIC??
According to IMDB, and a podcast from the official degrassi website, Cooley states that he is not a fan of modern or classic rock, but a fan of the classic Rat Pack music, like Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, and Sammy Davis Jr. --Dylan Bradbury 16:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems all well in good to add to the article but the way it's written could do with a clean up. Calling his taste in music "old" and "unique" doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Stating the style of music is enough I would think. 58.110.136.169 05:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Plezkit
I personally remember Cooley best for his role as Plezkit. When he came in the 2nd season with us (the mullet guys, I wore the glasses) we were both "PLEZKIT!!!" because he had only just joined Degrassi like the other younger students (Toby, Lindsay I think her name was, Keira or the asian girl adopted into the family of that bully dude). So yeah, I'm not sure how we can say "most well known". I guess since TNG ran longer and had more viewers? Even so, it wasn't a starring role, shows like that don't have stars, but Plezkit was definately the protagonist (I hated that normal kid) in I was a 6th Grade Alien. Maybe it's because the normal kid was also in TNG and he always bragged about his sports car, meh. That was damn annoying. Tyciol 19:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

dear,rayn cooley i like you your really the only reason i a=watched degrassi ever. so if you read this, try to find me my name is kara. you amaze me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.226.212.187 (talk) 18:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

hot
ryan cooley was my fav carecter in degrassi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.129.99.99 (talk) 20:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Not Active Anymore???????
It says he is not active as of 2007. Why???????? There isn't any mentioning of why he is not active and what career he is doing instead of acting. In-Correct (talk) 10:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ryan Cooley


text:
Kenneth Noye

Kenneth James Noye (born 24 May 1947) is an English criminal most recently on licence from a sentence of life imprisonment for the murder of Stephen Cameron during a road rage incident while on licence from prison in 1996. He was arrested in Spain two years after the crime and convicted four years later.

Noye was acquitted in 1985 of the murder of a police officer in the grounds of his home, and was convicted in 1986 of conspiracy to handle stolen goods from the Brink's-Mat robbery, sentenced to 14 years' imprisonment of which he served eight years in custody. He was on licence from that sentence when he murdered Mr Cameron. Noye was released on licence from the murder sentence in 2019.

Early life
Noye was born in Bexleyheath, Kent (now in Greater London) where his father ran a post office and his mother a dog racing track. His dishonesty began at a young age. At five, his mother caught him taking money from the till in a branch of Woolworths while she had been talking to a shop assistant. A bully while a pupil at Bexleyheath Boys' Secondary Modern School, he ran a protection racket with his fellow pupils. He left school at 15. For selling stolen bicycles after he had altered their appearance, and other crimes, he spent a year in a borstal. He met a barrister's legal secretary, Brenda Tremain, who later became his wife.

Criminal activities
A police informant for many years, Noye had begun a connection with corrupt officers by the time he was arrested for receiving stolen goods in 1977. He became a Freemason in January 1980, becoming a member of the Hammersmith Lodge in London after being proposed for admission by two police officers, giving his occupation as "Builder".

The membership of the Lodge contained a sizeable proportion of police. Noye's membership ceased in 1987 because he had failed to pay his subscriptions for two years in succession. He was subsequently expelled from the Freemasons when it was discovered that he had a criminal record, according to the Grand Secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England,

One of Noye's police contacts persuaded a customs official not to target him, while his tip-offs to the Metropolitan Police's Flying Squad were reportedly a means to prevent competition from rival criminals. Meanwhile, he had built up a legitimate haulage business to use as cover. Having initially been refused planning permission for a mansion on a plot of land he owned, he was able to gain consent in a subsequent application shortly after his bungalow on the site was destroyed in a fire caused by an electrical fault.

Brink's-Mat robbery
Active as a fence, Noye was among those involved in laundering a huge quantity of stolen gold bullion taken during the Brink's-Mat robbery by six armed men on 26 November 1983. While he was being investigated for his involvement in the crime, Noye fatally stabbed Detective Constable John Fordham who was involved in the police surveillance of Noye in the grounds of his home on 26 January 1985. Acquitted of murder on the grounds of self-defence in December 1985, he was found guilty in July 1986 of conspiracy to handle some of the stolen gold, and of a conspiracy to evade VAT. After his conviction in court, he shouted to the jury "I hope you all die of cancer".

The discovery of the bullion had surprised the gang as they expected to find £3 million in cash; their contacts had no experience of dealing with gold, let alone 6,800 bars worth £26 million in 1983. Mick McAvoy, one of the thieves, had asked Brian Perry to conceal the gold he had received, and it was Perry who brought in Noye and John Palmer, subsequently nicknamed "Goldfinger"; Palmer was acquitted in 1987 of knowingly handling gold from the robbery.

Noye had melted down much of the Brink's-Mat gold he had received, and mixed it with copper coins in an attempt to disguise its origins, although 11 gold bars from the robbery were found hidden at his home. Sentenced to 14 years, and fined £500,000 with £200,000 costs, he was released from prison in 1994, having served eight years. In a civil action brought by the loss adjusters of Brink's-Mat's insurers, £3 million was recovered from Noye while he was imprisoned.

Murder of Stephen Cameron
On 19 May 1996, while on release from prison on licence, Noye was involved in a road rage incident with 21-year-old motorist Stephen Cameron on a slip road of the M25 motorway near Swanley in Kent. Noye stabbed Cameron to death with a 9-inch knife. Noye immediately fled the country assisted by Palmer, who later claimed to have barely known Noye. While Noye was on the run, Detective Constable John Donald was jailed for 11 years for passing confidential information to him.

Police initially named Anthony Francis as the man they wanted to question. By December 1996 this name was found to be a false identity used by Noye, after the Land Rover Discovery registered in his name and matching the vehicle driven by the man who stabbed Stephen Cameron was unloaded in Kyrenia, Cyprus, in July that year. Noye was not found in Cyprus.

A police hunt assisted by GCHQ found Noye in Spain, where he was arrested in the resort of Barbate near Gibraltar on 28 August 1998. Cameron's girlfriend Danielle Cable, who witnessed the killing, was secretly flown out to positively identify him, which she did on 27 August. Noye lost an appeal against his extradition from Spain seven months later. He was extradited to Britain in May 1999, nine months after his arrest, and went on trial 10 months later.

At trial Noye claimed not to be a violent man and again pleaded self-defence, claiming to have fled because the police hated him and he feared not receiving a fair trial. Found guilty on 14 April 2000, after a trial held in conditions of high security, Noye was convicted of murder by the jury's majority verdict of 11–1 after their deliberations had lasted 8 hours and 21 minutes, and was given a life sentence by Lord Justice Latham. The judge did not recommend a tariff in open court on how long Noye should serve, but made the usual written report to the Lord Chief Justice and the Home Secretary recommending a tariff of 16 years. In 2002 Home Secretary David Blunkett set the tariff as recommended, which was subsequently upheld by Mr Justice Simon.

Despite Noye's evident wealth, his defence costs of around £250,000 and some costs for his initial appeal were funded by legal aid. An inquiry by auditors from the Lord Chancellor's department found that the correct legal aid procedures were not followed, as a result of carelessness rather than corrupt practice. One official was reprimanded and another resigned.

Cable was given a new identity under the witness protection programme, having been praised by police for her courage in giving evidence in the presence of Noye and his associates.

Alan Decabral case
Another eyewitness in the Cameron murder, Alan Decabral, declined protection and was shot dead in his car in front of shoppers through his open window in Ashford, Kent, on 5 October 2000 (some 6 months after Noye's conviction). Police sources were in no doubt that Decabral was killed by a professional hitman. Police sources also stated that Decabral had been questioned about gun smuggling, had extensive criminal contacts, and his estranged wife later admitted that he had been a drug dealer who owed money to others. Although Noye was questioned by the police, they concluded that the unsolved murder had no proven connection with Noye and did not charge him.

Decabral had testified at the trial of Noye at the Old Bailey that he saw the fight between Noye and Cameron on the motorway slip road, and told the jury that he saw Noye "lunging forward" with a knife and stabbing Cameron, testimony that helped convict him. The defence had attempted to discredit Decabral, saying he was an unreliable witness who created an "edifice of lies" in agreement with police.

After Decabral's murder Noye's defence team, led by Michael Mansfield QC, continued to attempt to discredit him as a witness in order to win Noye's release. Before he died, Decabral had received death threats in relation to his involvement in the case against Noye and said that he had been ordered by unknown gangsters to "shut up or we will shut you up." He also said that someone had pushed three bullets through his letterbox with a warning. After the trial he had notably said "I look over my shoulder every time I go into Sainsbury's" (the murder took place in the car park of Sainsbury's Bybrook Superstore).

Police investigated whether Decabral was killed as part of a fight between rival biker gangs over drugs. Witnesses to the murder in the retail park said they heard Decabral beg for his life before a young man in a woolly hat shot him.

Prison sentence and later legal proceedings
On 10 October 2001 and again in 2004, Noye appealed unsuccessfully against his conviction. He was represented again by Michael Mansfield. In 2007 a legal challenge was made against the Criminal Cases Review Commission's decision not to refer his case to the Court of Appeal as "legally flawed".

On 7 March 2008, on a new legal challenge, Lord Justice Richards and Mrs Justice Swift granted permission for a one-day judicial review hearing, covering the CCRC's October 2006 decision not to send Noye's case back to the Court of Appeal.

On 25 June 2010, Noye's bid to have the minimum term he must serve for murder reduced was rejected. Mr Justice Simon, a High Court judge sitting at Newcastle, ordered that he must spend at least 16 years in jail before he could be considered for parole. On 14 October of that year, Noye was granted a fresh appeal against his conviction for Cameron's murder, but it was rejected on 22 March 2011. Noye was reported to have been moved from the Category A prison, HM Prison Whitemoor, to a Category B prison, at Lowdham Grange, in September 2011. Noye was formerly at Category C HM Prison Wayland in Griston, Norfolk. Another appeal, this time against the tariff, was dismissed on 12 March 2013.

On 13 February 2015, BBC News reported that Noye had been granted a parole hearing. The Parole Board said the case had been referred by the secretary of state. Noye was refused permission to move to an open prison by Justice Secretary Michael Gove in October 2015 after such a move had been recommended by the parole board.

However, in the High Court, Mr Justice Lavender accepted a legal challenge in February 2017 that Gove had "failed to give proper or adequate weight to the recommendation of the Parole Board". Edward Fitzgerald, QC, acting for Noye, said during the previous month's hearing that the board had "noted that he had made significant progress in changing his attitudes and tackling his behavioural problems". Counsel for the Justice Secretary, Tom Weisselberg, QC, said Gove had doubted Noye had reformed, and considered there was the risk he would escape because of his connections to Spain. It was announced in August 2017 that Gove's successor David Lidington had agreed Noye should be moved to open prison conditions. It was said by the parole board that this change was not in preparation for Noye's release.

Around March 2018, Noye was moved to HM Prison Standford Hill on the Isle of Sheppey, which is a low security prison with a day release provision for prisoners.

In May 2019, the parole board announced that Noye was "suitable for return to the community" and would be released from prison within about three months.

On 6 June 2019, then aged 72, Noye was released from prison after serving 20 years for the M25 attack. The parole board considered risks associated with his release due to "his readiness to carry and use weapons" and because Noye was "not being able to resolve arguments reasonably at key moments" as he "did not always control extreme emotions well”. The board concluded that any perceived risks could be managed in the community and thus he was suitable for release.

Personal life
Noye's wife, Brenda, lives in the east Cornwall town of Looe. They have two sons, one of whom, Brett, was banned in 2013 from being a company director for 12 years for his part in a £2.4 million investor deception scheme involving a rat poison company.

In media
Noye is portrayed by Jack Lowden in The Gold, a 2023 BBC television drama about the Brink's-Mat robbery. The Gold: The Inside Story, an accompanying documentary, aired on BBC One a day after the drama's final episode.

title: Kenneth Noye


text:
Talk:Terry Sawchuk

Nickname
Saving nickname "Uke" for future use in prose. -Djsasso (talk) 00:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Travis Zajac - Cousin?
Please verify your source where you reference Travis Zajac as Terry Sawchuk's cousin. I spoke to Travis Zajac about this reference and he said it was the first time he had ever heard that he was related to Terry Sawchuk. I think that if Travis was related to Sawchuk, he would have already known, but nonetheless I requested that he verify this with his family. In the meantime, please verify your source. Thanks. ~IHHockey~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by IHHockey (talk • contribs) 23:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Good point, but I know nothing about the facts.

 * I changed the wording of the statement. If they are cousins death does not change that. It in incorrect to say, "they would have been cousins". Rather they are cousins regardless of when they lived and died.

 * Nick Beeson (talk) 05:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Tombstone photograph
That's really a great (and sad) photograph, what with the snow on top. We see that Terry pre-deceased his father, and his inscription looks like a footnote. WHPratt (talk) 15:47, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Terry Sawchuk


text:
Talk:Brendan Shanahan

Untitled
I think Shanny's participation in movies is something worth mentioning. Also, he is known for inventing some rather tall tales for his team's media guide profile. In the past, he has claimed to have been a stand in for Dino for the Flintstones film, backup goalkeeper for Ireland at the World Cup, a football extra in the movie Forrest youiiuty amongst other strange tales. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.163.2.8 (talk) 14:52, June 26, 2006

Hmm, that could possibly qualify for 'Trivia', if backed up by references. Hdw 14:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Mimico
When Shanahan was born, Mimico was part of Etobicoke. Having Mimico alone is technically inaccurate, as it did not exist on its own. So putting Mimico and Etobicoke satisfies accuracy and his identification with Mimico. Read the Mimico article. It states it is part of Toronto, was part of Etobicoke. ʘ alaney2k  ʘ ( talk ) 14:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Revert explanation
I reverted this edit, and here's my reasoning. The edit is factual, and sourced. In his position though, Shanahan makes dozens of fine and suspension decisions each year. For most of these you can find someone in the media who will say the decision should have been harsher or not as harsh. As a practical matter, we can't turn this into a 'list of discipline handed out by Shanahan'.--Cube lurker (talk) 19:07, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I call "Bush League" -- this is a highly controversial call by Shanahan that generated a lot of press and conversation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scooter5624 (talk • contribs)
 * I don't disagree that there's a degree of notability to the event, but there's already mentions in the article 2012 Stanley Cup playoffs and Shea Weber. In my opinion those are more workable articles for this info.--Cube lurker (talk) 19:35, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I did not see the Weber update. I agree w/ your reasoning.

1987 punch-up in Piestany
I just opened up several of the bios of players involved in the Punch up in Piestany. I noticed that 2 bios Luke richardson and Brendan Shanahan do not have any mention of the punch-up in their bios. Is there any reason that this is the case? Obviously this is pretty well documented and would be an easy edit. If anyone would like to write a section for that, I would encourage them to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 13EvilCows (talk • contribs) 17:45, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Brendan Shanahan


text: Talk:Paul Shmyr

title: Talk:Paul Shmyr


text:
Talk:Eddie Shore

Untitled
Shore's play style was copied & perfected by the Red Army team. And, as owner of the Springfield Indians, Shore traded Jake Milford to Buffalo for two hockey nets, & was outraged when he learned they were used... Trekphiler 19:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The bit on Coutu is incorrect. Source, 'Net Worth' has a chapter dedicated to Eddie Shore. It's said that Coutu hit Shore hard throughout practice. At one point of the practice, Coutu had the puck and was rushing down the ice. Halfway down the ice he lost control of the puck but continued to skate towards Shore. Eddie Shore prepared himself by crouching low and launching himself at Shore. The impact lifted Coutu (190 pounds versus Shore's 160) off the ice and he was unconcious after hitting the ice. The hit sheared Shore's ear. The team doctor wanted to amputate but he refused and asked several doctors before finding one that would give him stiches.

Alan Eagleson had a legal battle representing the Springfield Indians after they went on strike because of unfair values held against them by the owner Shore. Eagleson winning that case was a huge victory on behalf of players. I would say that battle and Eagleson helping Bobby Orr sign a contract were his starting points

Shore won the Lester B. Patrick Aware in 1970.

Shore's nephew, whom he employed with his Springfield Indians after he returned from WWII was Jack Butterfield. Butterfield later became president of the AHL.

Shore almost bought the Bruins off Charles Adams but it is believed the owners did not want him to have the team. Shore is notoriously known for being a 'scrooge'. He later bought the Springfield Indians and made roughly $100 000 a year, eventually selling the players to the LA Kings owner Jack Cooke in 1966 during the expansion for one million dollars.

~ Ken Chan

Expanding
There's a ton of info that could (and will) be inserted about this iconic hockey giant, and I'll step to it over the next week. Lots of inline citations to be had ...  Ravenswing  19:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames
Saving these here so that they may be incorporated into the prose. The Edmonton Express Mr. Hockey -Djsasso (talk) 03:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Problems with article
The lead-in states: "Only Wayne Gretzky and Gordie Howe have won the Hart Trophy more times than Shore. A bruiser known for NHL violence." So I was conclude from that the only reason he won the Hart was due to his violence. And the rest on the article only talks about his violence. The article also says Shore is ranked 10th on the Hockey News' all time list. I can't believe that a predilection for violence is the only reason he was considered so good.

Also, while not part of the article, at the top of this discussion Trekphiler says the Russians copied and perfected by the Russians. While I suspect this is apocryphal, if nothing else it indicates that SOMEONE thinks Shore was more than just violent. BashBrannigan (talk) 17:27, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The lead does mention his "defensive skill", but the article would be better if there was more emphasis on his hockey abilities. If you have some ideas, please make it better.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:41, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

What is the first S in S-SSHL?
SSHL is the Southern Saskatchewan Hockey League, but what does that first S stand for? It's in the first line of his stats.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:32, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It's listed that way on the Hockey Hall of Fame site, which is from where that might have been taken. I'd guess (lacking other notions) that whoever put it on the HHOF site meant it to signify "senior league," but I've no clue either way.  I expect it can be safely removed.   Ravenswing   04:00, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe Ravenswing is correct, I believe it indicates that it was the senior SSHL and not the junior SSHL. -DJSasso (talk) 16:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

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Clancy or Horner?
About the Ace Bailey incident, I heard from several references that Horner was the one who body checked Shore (including from Horner himself), and not Clancy. Just wondering if we should change this? LatinJoe (talk) 19:45, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Eddie Shore


text: Talk:Steve Shutt

title: Talk:Steve Shutt


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hazardous event

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. — Xezbeth 20:10, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Hazardous event
This is a definition that has been nominated for a move to Wictionary. However, the definition is not even a good one. It seems better to just delete it outright than to make work for people over at Wictionary. Johntex 21:52, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, lame dictdef, agree with Johntex, only meaningful content should be transwikied. Tempshill 23:48, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * From the Wiktionary perspective, this phrase is as it stands just a simple combination of the adjective hazardous and the noun event. It's not an idiom, and thus unlikely to meet the criteria for inclusion. Uncle G 00:02, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
 * Delete. I was the one who proposed Wiktionary, but I'm persuaded by the comments above that that's not worth the effort. This is a stupid definition, anyway; the rising of the Sun is a "natural phenomenon"! RussBlau 20:26, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Jordan Sigalet

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title: Talk:Jordan Sigalet


text: Talk:Brian Smith (ice hockey, born 1940)


text:
Talk:Stan Smyl

Untitled
I think there needs to be an update as to where he is now. I believe he's doing something again now the Canucks, rather then the Moose. But I can't remember what. Marcus1060 02:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok he is now the Director of Player Development. http://www.canucks.com/subpage.asp?sectionID=191 Marcus1060 02:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

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"Steamer" origin
It would be difficult to believe that the nickname "Steamer" was primarily for his style of play. If it was, certainly other players would have had the same nickname, before and after Smyl.

The Stanley Steamer was a famous steam-powered automobile in the early 20th century. Hockey fans who also happened to like old cars probably chose the name for Smyl because of its familiarity, more than its suitability - assuming Smyl wasn't known for being slow or obsolete. TooManyFingers (talk) 23:40, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Stan Smyl


text:
Talk:Ryan Smyth

Addition
It looks as if this page has been untouched for a while, so I added his newest record hattrick. britishenglish - 8:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

New Picture?
Personally, I think it's confusing to have him pictured in a St. Louis Blues (a team he's never played for) style uniform. I know the rights thing is always a problem- but does anybody have an approved picture in a Colorado or Team Canada uniform (or both)? Smythtown_94 - 11:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * An Oilers picture would be a better picture for the lead. Does anyone have a free use one? Karl 334   ☞ TALK to ME ☜  01:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You can check Flickr, but it would have to be licensed CC0/PD, CC-BY, CC-SA or CC-BY-SA to be eligible for copying over here. Otherwise, I might try to get a pic of him next time the Oilers come to Calgary.  I've already got all of this year's Flames, so can focus on visiting teams on occasion.  As to the current lead image, feel free to move the team Canada pic up to the top.  If I do get a new pic of him in the future, I'll return it to the international play section at that time. Resolute 03:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hopefully alleviated this concern now! Connormah (talk) 03:57, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

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Credit for captain in 03-04?
I was going through some old photos on Getty and found at least 5 games where he played for the Oilers wearing a captain C in 2004.

January 5 vs the Devils

January 8 vs the Islanders

January 10 vs the Flyers

January 11 vs the Capitals

January 17 vs the Predators

I imagine it is during a time while the captain (Jason Smith) was injured. But it's still him with the C. Should it be mentioned that he took it over for that time in the article? MatthewNewHouse (talk) 21:17, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ryan Smyth


text:
Talk:Dzūkija

I'm not sure if the word "slavinization" exists in English, but I know what you mean. Lysy 21:53, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is also a small, man-made lake near the town of Morin Heights, Quebec called "Lac Dainava"/"Lake Dainava", ringed with cottages. heqs 16:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Dzūkija


text:
Talk:Sheldon Souray

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): ClayParent11.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): DylanBarnes10.

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Pylon award
I'm moving this here until we get some more information about this. Was this an actual award given or an off-hand comment by a writer? Is there a list of these awards anywhere (I've searched online, and can't find any reference to it)? If this is real, then it needs a proper citation. Please read the top box on this page. --Muéro(talk/c) 16:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Recipient of the Sports Illustrated award for "Best Impersonation Of A Pylon" for his play during the 2005-2006 season as credited in the December 2006 year in review issue.

I was the person who put it in there, and as a former subscriber to Sports Illustrated, I can confirm it. They're not official 'awards' per se, but rather part of an amusing look back at the season. But it honestly did give him that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.47.69 (talk) 04:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Slap shot speed
"Hardest Slap Shot was recorded in the 2004 skills competition with 115.5 MPH " an editor with a history of vandalism put this in. Someone who knows this fact may want to check if its right or not. --Xiahou 23:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

marriage
intro lists him as divorced, angelica's entry lists them as married. do we have a confirmation for which is accurate? Childhoodtrauma (talk) 22:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

marriage question
Along the same lines as the question above, Angelica's entry does still list them as married and it says in both entries that they reconciled and had their second child. Sheldon's entry goes on to say that they remain close friends... I'd imagine they do if they are still married. I'll try to confirm this one way or the other because the line about being close friends makes no sense if they are still married. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nose job (talk • contribs) 21:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC) He's deifinitely not married to Angelica Bridges and hasn't been for several years. He dates WWE Diva Kelly Kelly now. I've tried to edit this and provided sources but it still get's changed back. I expect better from Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.156.4 (talk) 16:57, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I found a reference to their divorce being in 2007. So I've updated the page with the reference. AuroraHcky (talk) 02:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

New section on marriage
This business with his marriage to Bridges has been a bone of contention in the article for quite some time. Unfortunately, whatever we seem to say never seems to be supported by sources. At the moment, the article says:

"Souray is married to former Baywatch actress Angelica Bridges. The two were separated in 2006, but reconciled later. They have two daughters Valentina Raine and Scarlett Skye Souray."

There's only one source for this material: ESPN article from 2008.

The article doesn't support the source. First, it calls Bridges his ex-wife, yet we say they are married. Second, it says nothing about any separation or reconciliation. Third, although it does say that he and Bridges have two daughters, it doesn't say their names.

Based on this source, the only thing we could say would be something along the lines of "Souray was married to former Baywatch actress Angelica Bridges. They had two daughters. Sometime before 2008, they divorced."

I've removed the material completely a couple of times because I think to make it source-compliant (as above) is not very satisfying because there are too many holes. Unfortunately, an IP keeps putting it back in. What I'm going to do is to change it to the above wording. Then, any editors can express a preference for that wording or nothing at all. Or, if you can find a reliable source that gives more information (good luck), we can, of course, expand on it.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:06, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Divorce was incomplete..pending custody agreement between Angelica and Sheldon...They are still technically married. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.169.34 (talk) 01:45, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Anything we say in Wikipedia has to be reliably sourced and compliant to that source. Otherwise, we can't say it.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:47, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sheldon Souray


text:
Talk:Jason Spezza

Tykell
Hi. Please don't quote me like that in edit comments. At first glance it looked like I made that edit. If you don't understand that original revert I made way back when, just ask. I'll try to supply an answer this weekend (I'm on travel). Thanks. ccwaters 12:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

WTF?
Under his career statistics there is a line of vandalism that doesn't show up when trying to edit. Can someone fix this? Jshecket 02:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC) This entry needs protection.

I could've sworn he played for the Brampton Batallions, am I crazy?T.o.anon84 05:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * He did. The article says so, anyway. -- Earl Andrew - talk 07:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Class B?
Do anybody think this article has significantly improved to a class B level by now? By the way, does anyone think this is a good source of info? --Hasek is the best 22:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed material
While revising this article (some of the content definitely did not warrant a 'B' rating), I've removed some content and placed it here if anyone would like to challenge its removal:

 * I can't imagine that the OHL allowed Spezza to play with Brampton as a 15-year-old because it was his hometown team, as this article states. As the statement's also been uncited, I've removed it.
 * Near the start of the season on October 27, 2005, Spezza scored one of his most skilled goals of the year in overtime against the Montreal Canadiens. On the play, he eluded three Montreal Canadiens defenders, slipping the puck between the legs of Sheldon Souray. He then shifted the puck to his backhand, and flipped it into the top of the net over José Théodore's shoulder.
 * Along with teammates Chris Kelly, Brian McGrattan and Chris Neil, Spezza presented the new Senators logos, and jersey for their team on August 22 at a 6:00 show at the Senators' home arena, the Scotiabank Place. The uniforms were changed significantly for the new RBK Edge jersey line for better performance and injury prevention. The visiting fans also could get to see the awarded Prince of Wales Trophy that the Senators won after eliminating the Sabres in the third round. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 05:54, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Sticks?
I think that somewhere in this it should be mentioned that Spezza did in fact get caught with an illegal stick. anyone who agrees? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.151.215 (talk) 20:16, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I would not consider that noteworthy.--Freshfighter9 (talk) 21:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100609193157/http://www.ottawacitizen.com:80/spezza+trade+talk+could+signal+change+guard/3108841/story.html to http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Spezza+trade+talk+could+signal+change+guard/3108841/story.html

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 12:49, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Jason Spezza. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060430012556/http://www.nhl.com/kids/youngstar/spezza.html to http://www.nhl.com/kids/youngstar/spezza.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071209232215/http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/hockey/senatorsstory.html?id=72d953b4-c683-4f94-8412-dd989c7a997c&k=4400&page=1 to http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/hockey/senatorsstory.html?id=72d953b4-c683-4f94-8412-dd989c7a997c&k=4400&page=1
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.ottawacitizen.com/spezza%2Btrade%2Btalk%2Bcould%2Bsignal%2Bchange%2Bguard/3108841/story.html
 * Added tag to http://www2.ottawasenators.com/eng/Kids/SpellingwithSpezza.cfm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928194104/http://www.rmhottawa.com/funevents/jason-spezza.pdf to http://www.rmhottawa.com/funevents/jason-spezza.pdf

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 20:43, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Jason Spezza. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120411153312/http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Senators+Jason+Spezza+merits+Hart+Trophy+consideration/6432606/story.html to http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Senators+Jason+Spezza+merits+Hart+Trophy+consideration/6432606/story.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 21:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jason Spezza