text:
Talk:Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra Line

Merge with Cronulla Branch Line
There's not enough information on the Cronulla Line to sustain its own article at the moment. Some users here seem to think that the template is for a link to another article. That's not what it's for: it's for when there's too much information in an article for it to have all that information in the main one. The Cronulla branch is so caught up with the Illawarra Line nowadays, and should go with the information on that line as a whole (including its other branches, like the RNP Line and the now closed Woronora Cemetery Branch). There's no point in separating articles like this. JROBBO 10:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose I think the Cronulla branch deserves it's own page- it can be expanded upon, give it time! The eastern suburbs line Could also be considered caught up in the Illawarra line as well. I think there warrants an individual page about the line to explain its history and infrastructure etc. How does one define the Illawarra line anyway? The Illawarra line page as it stands reflects more what Cityrail currently markets as the 'Illawarra line' rather than the traditional meaning of Illawarra line, which historically meant the entire line down to Nowra. I remember a few years ago the suburban services from Bondi Jct to Waterfall were marketed as Sutherland line and what is now marketed as the South Coast line was marketed as the Illawarra line. No mentions of eastern suburbs line then, but I digress....Quaidy 11:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose This line has a history outside of the CityRail network and is of not inconsiderable social and historical significance. It also meets the criteria for notability, unlike some of the stations it serves. Does this mean, JROBBO, we can merge the branch's stations into this article? Joestella 12:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Oppose: Well I've already begun to expand the page, so I believe it should stay. I also whole heartedly agree with Quaidy about the Illawarra Line. - Vicer 05:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Illawarra Line series of articles
Hi all - I'm keen to see the Illawarra Line series of articles fixed up to a better standard like the Airport and East Hills railway line, Sydney article is now. My plan is to keep the existing articles on the Eastern Suburbs line and Cronulla Line as agreed to above, as there's already enough information on them, but to change this article back to the "Eastern Suburbs and Illawarra Line" and have the other two articles as sub articles coming off that with a more specific focus on those parts of the line. At present there's a lot of overlap between the articles, and it needs a bit of work to consolidate the info in a good way. I do need a photo or two of the National Park branch though, if anyone is keen for that. Even one of the old station would be great. JROBBO 02:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Stopping patterns
Do we really need such detailed stopping pattern and service information?- Seems a bit directory like to me. Quaidy 06:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I would think that the way that trains operate on the line is an important part of how it is run. No one at Wikipedia seems to be able to define what a "directory" is in terms of being part of the operation of a railway line? I would see a "directory" as encompassing something like including the times that trains arrive at a specific station, or where you can catch a train where. This is just about the different patterns that trains use. JROBBO 11:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I just think that the stopping pattern chart is a pretty tenuous thing and liable to quickly change with timetable revisions.Quaidy 10:11, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Apart from tthe adjustment of stops to serve Wolli Creek since the Airport Line opened, they haven't changed all that much since the electrification to Waterfall in the late 80s. Sure, every now and again lines might add a stop or two to serve school students or relieve traffic on a particularly busy line (the former happened on the South Coast Line between Helensburgh & Thirroul when Lawrence Hargrave Drive was closed), but they have remained fairly regular. Having a look at a copy of a page of the 91 timetable (see here) the stops are very much the same, with the exception of Tempe which had more trains at that time as Wolli Creek wasn't open then, and the RNP station which was still open at the time). JROBBO 00:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I tried to match it to the timetable and failed. Apparently you have to discard some early morning trips to get it to match up; that seems to be original research. --NE2 10:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course early morning trips and late evening trips (when trains are being relocated into and out of depots) and many peak hour services don't strictly follow standard patterns. Regular stopping patterns occur between say 9:30am and 3pm.  That's true of all rail systems and if its original research its fairly trivial.--Grahamec 23:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm with Grahamec here - most metros and commuter systems, even ones like the Hong Kong MTR and London Underground have very early morning trips that don't match their normal stopping patterns, but no one's suggesting that to discount them is original research; I've suggested the peak hour amendments in the paragraph that's written there (and I did use the word "usually" as well in describing the passenger stops). No one publishes a list of stopping patterns of trains - you have to get it from the timetable. And according to WP:NOR that's ok: I'm drawn to this paragraph:

Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.

 * The timetables are published information, and I'm only putting into written form what's included on there. JROBBO 00:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Would it be possible to give a breakdown on this talk page of rush hour trains and how many of them follow each pattern? Then maybe I can judge better how "original researchy" it is. --NE2 12:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Actually I'll start doing it on Talk:Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra railway line, Sydney/patterns. --NE2 12:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm not seeing these patterns... do they have common names? "Hurstville local", the obvious choice, doesn't turn up anything. --NE2 13:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Train patterns don't have names like "local" or "express" in Australia. You have to read the timetable or the station signs to work out stops.  In my memory Sydney stations had wooden destination rollers set by hand.  Train service patterns change in various steps to the peak and down again, and are only regular between the peaks and in the evenings. If you look at trains leaving Bondi Juction, they become regular interval 10min services at 9:58  and continue regular to 3:18pm, when they begin stepping up for the peak.  At 6:58  they return to 10 min schedules (leaving aside return workings at 7.23 and 8.51) and at 9.00  they step down to regular 15 min workings until 12.30 .--Grahamec 00:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Original research
NE2, can you please explain how the stopping patterns is original research? I've already shown that it's derived from an already published source, and as per the paragraph above that is not original research - it's just research using primary sources. I'd like a reply that explains why it isn't. JROBBO 09:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Already done below. --NE2 10:57, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Not good enough (from the OR page, not you). That doesn't answer the question. JROBBO 11:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Stations Table
Here's the station table in original form in case some of it is every needed again. JROBBO 09:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Line Maps Pictures
I moved the Cronulla map to its appropriate section, felt too out of place being put a paragraph after the lead. --Arnzy (talk • contribs) 13:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Original research with stopping patterns
See the discussion at Wikipedia talk:No original research: without citing easily-verifiable facts, this section is original research. You could count the number of trains that follow pattern 1 exactly and add a footnote saying how many trains that is out of all the Cronulla trains; if it's a large majority then it's not original research, as anyone can verify the figures (or simply trust that they're right). But right now there are somewhat vague statements that are not backed up by figures, and it's not possible for a reader to judge how closely those patterns are followed without digging through the timetables. --NE2 08:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems a large majority follows that pattern (after going through the entire TT), but I'd have to agree that finding verfication without going through the entire timetable seems to be a bit hard and probably bordering on OR. All I can say is if in doubt, either leave it out, or just explain the verified facts/patterns in simple terms. --Arnzy (talk • contribs) 09:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

 * My question still hasn't been answered and still stands - this is sourced from a reliable published primary source; the fact there's 26 pages of timetable should make no difference - the information is there. What's wrong with me writing that during off-peak most trains run to these timetables with some peak hour exceptions? JROBBO 11:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've restricted the pattern naming to off-peak and weekends which are regular and put a note that patterns alter during peaks, early morning and late evening; I've added an example for each terminus, and an example for each pattern in the regularised periods as mentioned. There's not much more I can do to show this is a sourced document. You must remember this is not a metro - it's a commuter railway and the stops are liable not to be regularised sometimes (except for the rare case when stopping patterns are numbered or named as is the case for TransPerth. JROBBO 11:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The core issue is: are you doing a great deal of calculation to arrive at your conclusions? We are allowed to do trivial analysis, etc.  The line between trivial and complex is where we cross into OR. Wjhonson 18:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It's still not sourced well... you give examples of three trains, one for each pattern, but don't give any figures on how common those are. I'll have a go at it later. --NE2 18:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

 * OK, I listed out all the weekday outbound Hurstville trains at Talk:Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra railway line, Sydney/patterns. Of the 33 trains, 26 of them (79%) run totally local. I will add a citation to this pattern. --NE2 19:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Thank you NE2. That looks good now.JROBBO 07:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow... there are no outbound trains at all that end at Mortdale, but this is a common inbound starting point... who comes up with these schedules? --NE2 19:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The only reason why trains start at Mortdale is because of its carriage shed (built (at the time of elecrification (?)) on an old path of the railway deviated in the past because it was too straight for the climb (maybe this should be mentioned in the article)). Trains start at Mortdale at times when service levels are increasing.  I presume the reverse situation when trains are being taken out of service they are run on to Sutherland and then go back to Mortdale carriage shed empty because Mortdale is not considered an appropriate place to throw passengers off the train (either because it is a backwater or because its platforms are narrow).--Grahamec 00:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I just would like to pipe in and say that I don't thinking extrapolating data from a timetable is "original research" given the timbre and scope of WP:OR. Actually, I applaud it as a great example of interpreting primary source material, and as it's taken directly from a primary source, I believe it should meet WP:V and WP:RS. It is no more "original research" than a contributor with a background in poetry (especially scansion) looking at a poem and saying "that's iambic pentameter" or "alliteration" or a mathematician or physicist explaining what each variable represents in E=mc2—ExplorerCDT 20:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

 * It's original research when I do the same extrapolation and get different results, as is becoming apparent... --NE2 20:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The root of that problem is that some people on Wikipedia have nothing better to contribute, so they interpret the rules to the extreme (or hypocritically) on others partly in compensation for their inability to contribute content or to avoid appearing intellectually inferior. It's the vicarious side of narcisstic personality disorder. The worst type are the WP editors who resort to WP:CIVIL as a crutch only when they lose arguments and their logic is proven faulty.  There seems to be an extremist faction right now that is big on enforcing WP:OR without self-restraint, and since the policy is vague in many areas, and interpreted with notions not even mentioned in the policy, often, I don't think a complain of "That's a violation of WP:OR" is credible.  On face value, most of them aren't.  I'm only a rule nazi when it comes to content, writing style and citation.  I have a high expectation and even higher standard for articles on WP, one that I impose (consistently) on my own work.  Unless the objections are with merit, on face value, and in keeping with the strict dictum of policies, MOS concerns, etc.  I ignore them.—ExplorerCDT 20:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I think I'll ignore this. --NE2 20:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Why am I not surprised that a user who is proud of his occasional drink is concerned with the application of WP:CIVIL?--Grahamec 00:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to take offense with the word "occasional." Men of Drink are not dilletantes in approaching the bottle.—ExplorerCDT 03:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Waterfall
Quick note - may need to include something on the Waterfall train disaster, given that it happened on this line and was a very notable event, even if it's only a mention. Orderinchaos78 17:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Isn't that south of Waterfall, thus not on this line? --NE2 17:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Yep - should be on the South Coast railway line, New South Wales article. There was another Waterfall accident at Waterfall station in 1994 where the train demolished the overhead bridge though - see here - not much info on it though. JROBBO 09:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The trouble with stopping pattern tables
There are a few columns that concern me. Each is discussed separately.TransitPolice 07:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Most trains stop
Given that this information is not published by anyone as such, it would appear to be original research. Poring over the publicly-available data and reaching a new (ie previously unpublished) conclusion about it: that's original research, pure and simple. Marking down the staffed or interchange stations (information which can be directly verified using CityRail's website) would be a better way to communicate what constitutes a more or less important station.TransitPolice 07:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Code

 * Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

This is operational arcana. The information adds nothing to an understanding of the line or its stations - and the source isn't top-notch either: web archive of an ISP hosting account. (No offence, Rolfe.)TransitPolice 07:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

TravelPass zone
I would argue that this column is not encyclopaedic. But as a graphic designer I feel strongly that text in pink and yellow is poor web design. I think we can trust users to know what pink looks like without needing coloured text.TransitPolice 07:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Serving suburbs
This column, lacking a source, concedes itself as original research. Those interested in how best to use the rail network are best directed to 131500.info.TransitPolice 07:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Connections
I would argue that the references to South Coast line links are redundant. These stations are for all intents and purposes on the South Coast line - they appear on the South Coast line timetable, they are signposted as such at the stations. They should be in the table that will doubtless one day appear at South Coast railway line, New South WalesTransitPolice 07:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Cronulla branch and tramway alignment
Seeing as though today it's a featured article, I thought I'd point out that the opening paragaph is incorrect, the Cronulla branch does not follow the alignment of the former tramway, the tramway ran down the Kingsway (a road), the railway followed a new alignment to the south.The Fulch 01:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The info is correct in the Cronulla line section, but not at the top. I'll edit the sentence to make it more accurate - as the line was mostly over the tramway alignment, but not between Sutherland & Kirrawee. JRG 02:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The tramway ran the entire length of the Kingsway to Cronulla, not just between Sutherland & Kirrawee. The railway was on a completely new alignment away from the Kingsway. The Fulch 12:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So it is - I'll fix that up. JRG 13:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In the scheme of life, its a minor thing but I think its worth being as accurate as possible. Seeing as the page is your baby, I'll leave it to you to fix as suggested. The Fulch 23:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations!
Wow! Thanks so much for this article. My favourite railway line ... a featured article. Made my day! Have a drink on me, mates and mate-esses. :D Alastair Haines 03:13, 3 October 2007 (UTC) Star class or not, Wollongong was not electrified in 1984. December 1985, although through trains from SYdney could not run with the Stanwell Park viaduct out of action through to late Jan 1986. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.130.50.199 (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
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Requested move

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The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Steel1943  (talk) 08:24, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra railway line → Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra Line – More accurate name as of 21/10/13. Evidence on Marcnut1996 (talk) 08:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
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WP:URFA/2020
This featured article no longer meets the featured article criteria. There's lots of uncited text, MOS:SANDWICH issues, and the Performance and Metro proposal sections need updates. Additionally, stuff like this suggest that there are important recent events not reflected in the article. Hog Farm Bacon 02:20, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * this has seemed to have died a natural death as there is now no mention of this in the official website. Adding it to the article now after nearly three years would be pure speculation. Fleet Lists (talk) 03:01, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, I noticed this clicking through some links from the Australian Wikipedians' Notice Board. Looks like all the users who put this together are long gone from Wikipedia but I am from Australia and happy to help with this. I have moved the images to the left, added some further information on the metro section (to reflect a more recently announced project to improve capacity) and updated the performance data to reflect 2019-20 figures. Can you assist me with what parts in particular need more sourcing (I've read the critera that says there must be inline citations where appropriate, but I'm not sure how often the sources need to be added)? Fleet Lists is right that there has been no further word on the privatisation proposal but I am happy to add it in if that would "update" the article. Deus et lex (talk) 05:29, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Metro proposal
Section is largely about what was proposed on white papers 15-20 years that have long since been superseded. Article should focus on what did happen or has a reasonable chance of happening, not what has very little if any. Propose deleting section. Balgil (talk) 06:41, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The section is sourced and is relevant about proposals to expand the capacity of the line. I agree with Hog Farm above that it could have been updated but the information is still notable. Deus et lex (talk) 06:42, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Being sourced isn't the issue, if things proposed had a reasonable chance of happening, then yes they would be relevant, but a list of things that never got beyond the blue sky thinking stage is fairly pointless. Balgil (talk) 06:52, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The section is about proposals to expand the line. It is one proposal that was put forward, so it is relevant. Please don't remove content without discussing it first. Deus et lex (talk) 06:55, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What is surprising is that the most recent Metro proposal that in conjunction with the extension of the North West Metro to Bantstown, it would be split with half the Metro trains going to Bankstown and the other half to Hurstville along the Illawarra line. This is just another proposal which has died without any official notification. But it shows how irrelevant this whole section is. I would support its deletion. I live on the Ilawawarra line so I know a bit about it.Fleet Lists (talk) 07:10, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it would be better to revise the section with discussion of the more recent Metro proposal and to change the name to proposals for expansion or something like that. The original 2005 proposal is still relevant and notable. Deus et lex (talk) 07:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Certainly plural. I was thinking of doing something along the lines you mention, when I have a bit more time tomorrow, if it is decided not to delete.Fleet Lists (talk) 07:25, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I have made some major changes to this section which I hope gives a much clearer picture of the various proposals which have taken place - also now shows who Ron Christie was. It is still open to further improvement. Fleet Lists (talk) 21:42, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * - Sorry for not responding to the ping earlier, I got really busy. I'll take a look at this article now.  Maybe we can get this cleaned up and mark it as satsifactory for URFA. 17:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the new metro proposal section is a lot better. It's more comprehensive, and up-to-date, demonstrating that these proposals came to naught.  The section of Illawarra & Cronulla Lines is mostly uncited, but I think a map could be used to cite almost all of that information - at least the stuff detailing the path of the route.  Beyond that, there's only a few straggling spots with no citations, but I don't think a FAR would help this article at all, really.  I'm removing this article from Featured article review/notices given because it has been greatly improved beyond that state. Hog Farm Bacon 17:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much,, we appreciate you looking at this. Deus et lex (talk) 23:44, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Maintaining and/or improving this article's FA status
Per this discussion at WikiProject Australian Transport, @Steelkamp has kindly invited me to help cite information in this article and make sure everything is ok.

Sorry that I haven't been much help yet, I will get to this when I'm less busy in real life. Also, I'm currently involved in an ANI discussion of which I started about another user, so any free time I currently do have here is being used there (the discussion should likely be of no concern to anyone reading this). Fork99 (talk) 09:55, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra Line


text:
HemisFair

Hemisfair may refer to:

 * HemisFair Arena, an indoor arena located in San Antonio, Texas
 * HemisFair '68, the official 1968 World's Fair (or International Exposition) held in San Antonio, Texas, from April 6 through October 6, 1968

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: HemisFair


text:
Talk:University of Toronto Students' Union

Criticisms?
A lot of criticisms have been deleted. There were criticisms for the organizations activism, which some students consider to be excessive. However, the only criticisms that remain are historical ones, apparently from back in the day when the organization wasn't activist enough. It's pretty clear that they've come here and edited it themselves. Why else would a number of cited criticisms simply disappear?

Mention of a Medical Society referendum to leave UTSU was also deleted. Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.235.183.215 (talk) 16:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Current section
I was wondering if someone could cleanup the "current" section. It seems to contain a great deal of either erroneous or uncited material, and some sentences have gramatical errors. In particular the claim of 15% voter turnout seems a bit off... the latest referendum results show a voter turnout in the <10% range for the St. George campus. While the occaisonal director election may reach 15%, I can't personally recall any union wide election or referendum breaking the 10% turnout barrier. Last year's executive elections were in the 7-8% range for voter turnout, and the year before that was even lower. Could this claim maybe be cited or removed? Frankly it'd be nice if there was at least one citation on this page, though I do realize the official UTSU is very poor for retrieving any kind definite facts or figures.

The sentence regarding the various commissions is a) innacurate (campus life is missing) and b) incoherent. I would fix it myself but the official webpage omits UTM, so it's hard to find a reliable source.

Also, does anyone else share my concern about the link for Canadian Student Associations for UofT pointing here? APUS, GSU and SCSU share that title, and while as far as I know they don't have anything on wiki yet, it seems to me that that link implies that the UTSU represents all UofT students, which it does not. Any idea on how to fix that?--RMCampbell (talk) 15:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Criticism and Protection
I think I understand why the criticism section has been placed under protection, but I don't quite understand the removal of the section which pointed out that the diversity of the University of Toronto campus student body ensures criticism of UTSU will happen. Is that just too obvious? I was tempted to add it back in again, but don't want to get into a cycle of addition and removal Lostphd 21:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Redirect
Does anyone object to redirecting this to a new page, University of Toronto Students' Union? Considering that's the official name of this organization, the wiki page should reflect that.

Since the question has been asked, let me say that I have no objection. Organizations which change name should be listed under their new name Lostphd 20:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Past Presidents
Is there anyone who can get a list on this for the article? --Spinboy 00:27, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I can probably get you a list from someone that I know at SAC. There was a book written for the 101st anniversary in 2001, so a comprehensive history is there, and I believe the author and researcher are still around. Send me an email. Thanks--Alexdelarge 15:27, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the list published in the SAC 101 book is not perfect (especially for the early periods). I have a list of past presidents of SAC from 1915-1950 culled from my own research with proper first initials. If someone manages to type in the list from the SAC 101 book I would be glad to edit it -- send an e-mail to ut.history@utoronto.ca when the edit is needed. The 101st anniversary book is not a "comprehensive history" but it is an excellent start.

Expansion
Could someone more knowledgeable about the SAC's organizational structure give a bit more detail on the Board of Directors? (The proviso being that each individual faculty's own separate student union should not have its own distinct article, per Wikipedia rules about notability; anything important enough to be noted should be done specifically within this article.) Bearcat 02:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I've requested a citation for this claim: "Professional students reputedly had less time to debate university issues because of their more rigid timetables." Also, if anyone can add more information regarding the current role and importance of the SAC, that would be great. --Marysunshine 19:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The citation about professional students is a paraphrase from one of two sources. Either an article in The Varsity from around 1913, or a report on the Students' Parliament in the University of Toronto Monthly around the same time. I will have to check out which one is correct and report back. The source of the citation may still be questionable because it was a surmise by Arts students as to why professional students were not active participants in the Parliamemt. Lostphd 20:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Further to this -- sorry. The actual references are from 1908 and 1909, see The Varsity for December 18, 1908 and November 26, 1909. Both articles mention the low attendance at meetings and specifically point out that medical students were the main culprits. Neither mentions timetables, that was a mistaken interpolation on my part. I have corrected the text accordingly Lostphd 18:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

History
The organization in 1901 was called the University of Toronto Union (and sometimes the University of Toronto Undergraduate Union). You can check this in the Varsity between 1901 and 1905, see for example the Varsity masthead of November 19, 1902 or the editorial of January 19, 1905. The recent change of name cannot be considered a "renaming" because the original name was not "Students' Union". Lostphd 05:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

2006 Election Controversy?
The articles says that in 2006 there was a slate run that was filled with Liberal politicians and staff. I don't remember that. As I recall, the 2006 election was almost entirely uncontested. That claim seems unlikely. Kilrae 19:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If it's not sourced, I'm happy to have it removed. J 19:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a leftover from a longer paragraph that addressed controversies in the 2007 election. Someone deleted the criticisms of the opposing slate and someone later tried to make sense of the orphaned sentence by adding the (wrong) year.  No one has added a source yet and (particularly without the viewpoint it's offered in opposition to) it's not relevant (criticisms of a defeated slate are not criticisms of UTSU) so I'm deleting it. Kilrae 16:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Section on criticism
As probably the only conservative in the UTSU/GSU-run UofT Drop Fees coalition, I know first hand which issues they push, and the ones that they don't. It is true, many of the viewpoints and issues they push are centre-left positions, but "free education" is not one of them. It is a goal, but not one that is actively or ever pushed. They campaign on the Canadian Federation of Students slogans: "Reduce Tuition Fees", "Drop Fees", and "Education is a Right". What they are pushing for is the accessibility to public post-secondary education for all students, and to push for Government intervention to alleviate the burden of student debt which is an average of $25000 per student and rising.

Second issue I have with this section is the fact that it states that the UTSU was in cahoots with AlwaysQuestion. Not true. UTSU support is limited to the aftermath of the sit-in in regards to the charges laid by the Toronto Police Service and the non-academic student code of conduct by the UofT administration. I was one of those people who stormed into the UTSU's office and demanded to know why the union was backing the 14 AQ members who had been arrested and the President Sandy Hudson made it clear that the UTSU did not endorse the sit-in or the demonstration, but were supporting them as a result of the Administration's actions in reaction to the sit-in. During the demonstration, AlwaysQuestion did not have any support outside of their group.

If these issues with the section cannot be resolved (i.e. WP:NPOV issues, WP:V issues, etc) parts of the last paragraph will be removed on the basis that it sounds like propaganda/"facts" from Naylor's letter to the UofT community in regards the sit-in and the fact that a lot of claims made in the section contradict many of the published positions of the UTSU. nat.utoronto 08:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Why was so much of the criticism section deleted? a number of issues that used to be there including the Always question issue in 2008 and the yes campaign student union building scandal in 2007 have just been wiped off.. and then replaced with someone saying that the UTSU is progressive...??? this seems bias, as if UTSU has been editing this itself. A number of sources were also deleted, the Varsity was sourced; it documents a lot of criticism towards the UTSU by average students. Why has all this been deleted?

Whitewashing
Someone with a Toronto IP is quietly removing and rewording criticism of the UTSU. Again.--ArmyLine (talk) 18:09, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Added Advert and Unreferenced Section tags
Reasons for advert tag
 * The "Victories" section is a direct mirror of the student union's own victories page.
 * The "Victories" section was added by a University of Toronto IP address, 128.100.101.10
 * The "Victories" section was added by the same IP address that section blanked the criticism section.

Reasons for unreferenced section tag
 * The section only has a single reference which is to the student union's own victories page.

Future Proof Reader (talk) 04:26, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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text:
Talk:The Guardian Legend

FA
I'm going to give it a shot and nominating this for FA as-is. We got nothing to lose, here. MuZemike 18:39, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I had assumed this was already going on behind the scenes but was caught up in some super long FAC process delay. I hope the article length isn't too short. AMHR285 (talk) 01:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there are shorter FAs than TGL, not to mention shorter VG articles than this. I am banking on that the quality makes up for the quantity. MuZemike 02:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

What Id like to know about this article
Differences between the English and Japanese version of the game, or is that Trivia? JasonHockeyGuy (talk) 23:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Most of that information would not be able to be backed by reliable secondary sources, so it would probably be considered excessive information, i.e. trivia. MuZemike 23:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way it seems that there is little difference between them other than that the room messages are written in japanese. Most everything is written in english even in the jp version anyway, including the credits, menu, and intro. If want to know about the trivia anyway you could check the archives where we talked about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Guardian_Legend/Archive_1#post-GA_stuff. Rumors that game graphics were changed appear to be false and would be unreferenced anyway. AMHR285 (talk) 01:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

So this was a game then that Nintendo Of America did not censor at all according to the content of the game? Wow......... Thanks for the information :)

Oops forgot to sign the above comment sorry about that JasonHockeyGuy (talk) 06:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

FA - Where do we go now?
It is now apparent that The Guardian Legend was not promoted to Featured Article status. The article has been through several peer reviews, and extensive modifications were made on the FAC page. What might give the article that extra nudge towards promotion? It is unlikely that much additional content will easily be discovered. Rg998 (talk) 04:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree theres not much information about this game that you could find. I did many google searches an other searches and found nothing that would expand this article. Its as comprehensive as you can get. JasonHockeyGuy (talk) 06:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * First off, I was kind of surprised about the concerns regarding the prose, since that was driven into the ground in the peer reviews. Anyways, I'll write up a more-detailed post-FAC review tomorrow if I have time. MuZemike 06:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

New source
The game was briefly mentioned in a recent Gamasutra article here from Mike Engler, designer of Retro Game Challenge as "one of the best NES games ever released". I don't know if that's worth another sentence in the "Reception" section or not. MuZemike 01:43, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Simple English article
If anyone cares, I am working on a version of this article for the Simple English Wikipedia. My draft can be found in my sandbox right here. MuZemike 21:04, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool AMHR285 (talk) 05:26, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Improvement suggestions
To try and steer the article closer toward meeting all appropriate MoS standards, some things need to be edited up which I'll bring here first: Those are some of my suggestions. Feel free to make others if needed. MuZemike 05:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Since the article is only 22KB long, per WP:LEAD the lead should only be two paragraphs long. All the paragraphs are short, anyway, so I don't see a problem combining to make two slightly longer paragraphs.
 * I'm considering removing some of the lesser-known developers in the infobox, but we should discuss who to keep. Niitani for sure and possibly Shant, but I don't know about the rest.
 * We should consider combining the Development and Reception sections into one History section and/or removing the Plot section and integrating it into the Gameplay section. I feel that we should have some consistency in the lengths of these sections and not have one-paragraph sections.
 * It might be a good idea to remove the Reception box and just have the rankings and incorporate the ratings in the prose since we already have three images and an infobox, which seems to seriously bork up the layout in general.
 * Making the lead more succinct sounds like a reasonable idea.
 * I agree that we should at least keep the ones you mentioned. Of the other developers, the map maker and password developers are probably the most expendable, and I'm not convinced the others are strictly necessary either.
 * I don't think combining sections is necessarily a bad idea, especially since there is scant further information to be found. However, it will be a very delicate task.
 * Personally, I am a fan of the Reception infobox, since it allows the reader to see varying opinions of the game at a glance in a well-organized fashion. Perhaps it would be best to complete the other tasks first, then see how the infobox fits into the revised layout.

 * These are my thoughts on the issues you raised. Rg998 (talk) 05:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Development section concern
The director was Masamitsu "Moo" Niitani, the creator of Zanac and the Puyo Puyo series. The development team also featured many of the same staff who helped create the original Guardic as well as Zanac.

The reference of this is the Gamespot release information. Nothing here references who created the game, and I think this is likely OR. We could use Mobygames as a reference (as the consensus at WP:VG/S allows that for only developer information, provided we only stick to only providing that information and not make any inferences), or we can try to find a better source for these two statements. What I did on another GA, Blazing Lazers, I used this secondary source, but that only mentions him creating Puyo Puyo. Any thoughts? MuZemike 17:13, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I think they should just be reverted to the credited names (see also my thoughts here, in the second-last paragraph, about "Miyamo Shant"). The big problem is that the only source that describes these people in good detail is (the unreliable) MobyGames, and its contributors haven't spoken up. (I have grown to hate MobyGames, IMDb, and fansites, for this article and Cutie Honey-related ones.  In theory, they can help others find sources for the facts, connections, similarities, etc.; in practice, the real sources for the facts rarely exist on the internet, especially for media as old as TGL, so it becomes unquestionable plagiarism in the guise of "these ads pay for my bandwidth lol!")  Just ranting here. --an odd name 17:37, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * On a side note, I found what looks like the Courier article online (archived), under a different title. It only mentions TGL and Sigma Star, not the other games. --an odd name 20:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I would focus on what was said during the FA nom process. Unfortunately it was pretty vague stuff if I recall correctly. 闇甦兄 (talk) 06:27, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Checking the nom, I actually don't see any lingering concerns. Ealdgyth's issues were resolved, Gary King struck his Oppose just after the nom was archived, and the rest were non-"!voting" Comments that also appear resolved. There's no more concerns there to focus on (unless the FA delegates were keeping theirs secret), and I think several Supports from other users would've earned it the star.  --an odd name 07:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There is also this article from IGN that I don't think has been used yet: . MuZemike 14:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That last sentence in the lead still needs to be changed to properly reflect what the sources say (BTW, I added the URLs to Thomas' Courier & Press article). We also need to get rid of that inline citation as having inline citations in the lead are not looked highly upon and can clutter the lead. MuZemike 18:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. Made some changes here. If someone wants to copyedit that over and make sure my English is good, please do so. In effect, I removed the last reference in the lead, reworded the last sentence there, and balanced the two paragraphs for consistency. I also added back RPG per the Courier & Press source, but right now I am only listing it down there.
 * Also, it might not be a bad idea to get one more peer review on this (with an emphasis on FA-quality) before nominating this for another FAC. MuZemike 22:02, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Japanese box art
While this was not mentioned at the previous FAC, I can foresee someone opposing on the basis of having too many non-free images (unless someone can find any free images that can be added). I would contend that the original box art and the two gameplay screenshot are necessary to the fundamental understanding of the article. If push comes to shove, I think we can do without the Japanese box art. However, so that users can still have access to the image, we could add some sort of external link going right to the image (unless that's covered already in the current list of links we have). Thoughts? MuZemike 19:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if we are forced to only link it, I can imagine that someone will complain "hardcore gaming is non-reliable, do they even have the rights to show the art? How do we know they didn't alter it? STRONG OPPOSE for linking to copyvio" or something. It might be hard to prove their reliability wrt images (they've been around a while and talked about lots of games, but "Vyse the Bold" isn't exactly a reassuring editor name), so we'd have to find another source with the art.  Or...
 * There's a far more reliable source for the boxart, sort of: an image of a signed poster (showing the awesome realistic Guardian art, but none of the ribbons and titles and such) linked from a thumbnail on publisher Laputa's website! (Hint: Ctrl+F for "ガーディック外伝"!)  It's Matrix- or Ghost in the Shell-ish now that I think of it.
 * Anyway, our choices, in order of increasing safety, are:
 * Show the fair use boxart (current, but may have to be cut);
 * Show the Laputa poster as fair use (from a slightly more RS, but still a fourth image that'll attract opposes);
 * Link the boxart (which might get "how do we know they're reliable enough not to fabricate the image?" complaints); or
 * Link the Laputa poster (safe at this point, maybe overly so); or
 * Have none of those and curse copyright and the NFCC forever.
 * Or something like that. --an odd name 09:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you all end up using laputa, for reference here's the line that proves what it is, from next to the image and under the line that says 500円＋税. コンピュータゲーム『ガーディック外伝』(アイレム販売）のパッケージ用として描かれた作品. - "Piece drawn for the packaging of the video game "Guardic Gaiden" (Irem corporation)."  闇甦兄 (talk) 21:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that I look at WP:ELNEVER, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to link to sites that may be infringing copyright (like Hardcore Gaming 101 for example). I think we can try to include laputa instead of the current boxart shown. Depends who looks at it and their mood, we're still rolling the dice on whether that should be included or not.
 * I don't know if this is a good idea, either, but perhaps we could replace the North American box art in the infobox with either the Japanese box art or even possibly the laputa image (Even though, IMHO, having an image that is not boxart in the infobox of a video game article is stretching it). Even though this would contradict current WPVG article guidelines, this might further ensure that the non-free images are being used to further provide context to readers that may not be possible without. However, I also think many other people wouldn't necessarily like this idea. MuZemike 23:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

There are a couple more things of possible interest that I noticed today. Looking at Flickr, there are some photos of Kato in some sort of painting competition here. There are also some books of his works, also published by Laputa as shown here. Don't know if this helps out any, but I thought I would mention it. MuZemike 17:08, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Of them, I think http://www.flickr.com/photos/99862880@N00/1566185434/ has the best view of Kato's face.  It might be better at his article than here: if his boxart stays, his face would crowd the History section; if the art goes, it would get one or two weird looks from people wondering where his actual work is (but that won't mean much).

 * Now we just need to free it from the "All rights reserved" tether. --an odd name 21:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Is there anything else beside the images that need to be addressed before we re-nominate for FAC again? MuZemike 15:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

So it failed again? I guess then there's nothing to be done until miracle Y happens, such as renewed interest in the game via Wii virtual console or something. 闇甦兄 (talk) 05:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The issues included lack of dev info and sales figures, which just don't exist at the moment, so we should indeed tag it [ miracle needed ] --an odd name 06:08, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's about it. I was afraid it would come down to that, but it didn't hurt trying. Hopefully D4 Enterprise (who released Zanac and I believe a couple of other Compile games such as Aleste) considers releasing them for the VC. Otherwise, I don't think FA will ever happen. It just needs to be more bulk as far as material is concerned, and I am now convinced after two FACs that this doesn't have it. MuZemike 07:20, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Still digging for sources
While little information has surfaced in the past several months, usable sources with development and/or sales information may still be out there. For example, the Japanese gaming magazine GAMEST published something about Guardic Gaiden in an early issue (vol. 19, April 1988, p. 52). I don't have a copy, so the article could be useless, though a scan of the table of contents confirms that it exists. I'm reasonably confident that something useful (and perhaps even a home run) may be found in ~1987-1988 era Japanese gaming magazines which, admittedly, are very hard to come by. I also wonder if the Compile developers were ever interviewed at some time...

In any case, feel free to contribute with any promising leads. Rg998 (talk) 02:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

 * This blog post apparently indicates the issue of Famicom Tsūshin which features the review of Guardic Gaiden. The scores and the text of the review itself are included. However, its accuracy cannot be verified. Rg998 (talk) 05:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I just added some preview coverage from Nintendo Power if that helps any. –MuZemike 19:12, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Cool - it might. I found another review - this one from a 1990 issue of VideoGames & Computer Entertainment which I added to the table.  The review is detailed and quite lengthy, but I don't plan on adding much to the prose because most of what it points out has already been covered. Rg998 (talk) 05:15, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * We should at the least mention that it was covered there as far as comprehensiveness is concerned. I mean, it has to offer at least something different than all the other reviews. –MuZemike 07:47, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI, the citation is:
 * The ratings were 8/7/7/7 (out of 10). –MuZemike 22:52, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * ...which I did not see that the citation itself is already in the article. Anyways, I spelled out the magazine's title in the Reception box as people will not have any clue as to what VG&CE means. –MuZemike 23:02, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Here's another review I found in the premiere issue of a German magazine called Video Games. The citation is the following: –MuZemike 04:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

And another German review from Power Play: –MuZemike 04:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Good news - I now have access to the article about Guardic Gaiden in the aforementioned issue of GAMEST. It is about a half-page long, but I am unable to translate it myself, so I will need assistance in that regard. Also, I remembered an earlier discussion where Guardic Gaiden was found to appear at the 19th rank in a "sales" list in the Famitsu mook. I think I've found a key in the intro of the mook which may explain what the "sales" ranking actually means - this could be very useful information. (I speculate that it could be overall sales in Japan for that year; Dragon Warrior III has the 1st rank in the "sales" list, which correlates well with the cited sales data.)

Anyone up for a bit of Japanese translation? Rg998 (talk) 04:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Sure. What am I translating exactly? I'm not really up to date with what's going on anymore. I can't believe it's been 2 years since I did that guidebook. I'm lucky it was so simply written, because I know a heck of a lot more (although mostly colloquial) Japanese than I did back then. If you need to send me something, send it to Kilgamesh at gmail dot com.闇甦兄 (talk) 19:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm working on the German translations of the two German magazine sources right now. –MuZemike 20:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Remember to provide quotes in the original language for translated stuff, or it'll all be for nothing. (Some Japanese sources used here are still lacking the relevant original quotes.) --an odd name 00:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

 * If you can tell me what's lacking original quotes I can get them. Also I looked over the scans, but they don't really say anything we don't already know. Number one is the original box stating the "sales ranking". Number two clarifies what each category is. All it says about the sales ranking is that... it's the sales ranking, derived through famitsuu's correspondence.　Number three is a miniature review/blurb. 闇甦兄 (talk) 03:13, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Refs 4, 5, and 13. I think you said once that you didn't have the manual anymore.  It's no big deal now (we have the page numbers etc.) but a FAC will need them to pass source checks for sure.
 * Maybe for ref 29 (the Japanese artwork) to be extra-safe, but if it's what I think it is (a page with the art with Kato's name next to it) then we can probably just show them the page and say "see? the art matches the box and the guy made the art, please support now ok?". --an odd name 08:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Oh I've got the manual. What I don't have anymore is the guide, and I'm not sure why I would delete or lose that, but apparently I did. Luckily you don't appear to need that one so much. I don't know how this should be formatted, but here are the lines.

ref4 = (in Japanese) Guardic Gaiden Instruction Manual, p. 3. "This huge object—known as Naju—was a giant capsule of unknown purpose sent off by an alien existence years ago." '''「ナジュ」というこの物体ははるか過去、人類と格別の｢存在｣が落とした用途不明の巨大なカプセルだった. '''

ref5 = (in Japanese) Guardic Gaiden Instruction Manual, p. 5. "The struggle unfolds over the planet's surface (the Labyrinth) and its interior (the Dungeon)." '''戦いは惑星の外周「ラビリンス」と惑星の内部「ダンジョン」の中にある２１のコリドールで繰り広げられる. ''' This one can be made more precise if you want. It mentioned the 21 corridors originally. "The struggle unfolds over the planet's surface (the Labyrinth) and the 21 corridors in its interior (the Dungeon)"

ref13 = (in Japanese) Guardic Gaiden Instruction Manual, p. 11. I'm not sure what's needed with this one. The only text on this page related to the randaas is their names. It lists the blue randaa 青ランダー and red randaa 赤ランダー

For ref 29, I definitely don't have that book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 闇甦兄 (talk • contribs) 08:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I put them in.  The note that ref 13 uses gives the kana anyway, so I wasted your time with that one.  Sorry! --an odd name 11:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't suppose there's anything new that needs doing on this front? Stopping in since it's been awhile. 闇甦兄 (talk) 19:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Interesting connection with the U.S. boxart and possible info on European boxart
Just found this blog entry today from someone on Hardcore Gaming 101, which mentioned the strong resemblance of the U.S. boxart to the poster for the 1985 film Creature. I don't think we can use this as a reliable source to verify the connection, but it is interesting to say the least. It also mentions something about the European boxart may have been done by Hajime Sorayama, but that was not verified at all. –MuZemike 03:33, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

The Japanese title
Can someone please explain why the full title isn't being used? It should read, Guardic Gaiden: Legend of Goardic. I tried adding it bt it was reverted on a claim of good faith. 108.57.87.25 (talk) 04:14, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Source

 * https://web.archive.org/web/20060209191145/http://crucialclassics_23.1up.com/

title: Talk:The Guardian Legend


text:
Turhan Bey

Turhan Bey (born Turhan Gilbert Selahattin Şahultavi, 30 March 1922 – 30 September 2012) was an Austrian-born actor of Turkish and Czech-Jewish origins. Active in Hollywood from 1941 to 1953, he was dubbed "The Turkish Delight" by his fans. After his return to Austria, he pursued careers as a photographer and stage director. Returning to Hollywood after a 40-year hiatus, he made several guest appearances in 1990s television series including SeaQuest DSV, Murder, She Wrote and Babylon 5 as well as a number of films. After retiring, he appeared in a number of documentaries, including a German-language documentary on his life.

Life and career
Bey was born Turhan Gilbert Selahattin Şahultavi in Vienna, Austria, on 30 March 1922, as the son of a Turkish diplomat and a Czechoslovakian-Jewish mother.

After the Anschluss annexing Austria to Nazi Germany and his parents' divorce, he and his mother immigrated to the United States in October 1938, initially settling in New Hampshire. In 1939, they moved to Los Angeles.

Acting
Bey was an acting student at Ben Bard's School of Dramatic Art and was active in the Pasadena Playhouse.

When he enrolled in classes to improve his English, he was asked to play a role in a teacher's play.

Bey says it was Bard who helped come up with his stage name. He said, "He knew that 'Bey' was a term of respect in Turkey so said 'Why don't we just make it Turhan Bey?'"

In December 1939, he appeared in Bard's Talent Scout Revue on stage. "Vivid playing and several fine characterizations distinguished the evening", reported the Los Angeles Times.

A talent scout from Warner Brothers was in the audience, was impressed and signed him to a contract, under the name of Turhan Bey.

Warner Bros
Bey appeared in a number of films in small roles, usually playing someone sinister: Shadows on the Stairs (1941), and Footsteps in the Dark (1941) with Errol Flynn. Warners then dropped him.

Universal
Bey moved to Universal, where he had small roles in Raiders of the Desert (1941) (which had an early appearance from Maria Montez), and Burma Convoy (1941).

He went to RKO to appear in The Gay Falcon (1941), the first in The Falcon series of B movies. He returned to Universal for a small role in Bombay Clipper (1942), starring Montez and directed by John Rawlins.

Bey had a slightly bigger part in Unseen Enemy (1942), directed by Rawlins, playing a Japanese spy. He was in the serial Junior G-Men of the Air (1942). Bey was in Drums of the Congo (1942), then went back to RKO for The Falcon Takes Over (1942), an adaptation of Farewell My Lovely.

Bey played a South Sea islander in Danger in the Pacific (1942) and a Japanese officer in Destination Unknown (1942). He had a role as an Egyptian follower of Kharis in The Mummy's Tomb (1942) with Lon Chaney Jr. which he later said was his favorite film.

Bey's first "A" movie in color was Arabian Nights (1942) with Maria Montez, Jon Hall and Sabu directed by Rawlins; Bey had a support role as a captain. The movie was a huge success and led to a series of exotic adventure stories starring Montez. Bey was noticed too, with one reviewer's calling him "a handsome snake in the grass."

Bey was in The Adventures of Smilin' Jack (1942), then had his best chance to date with White Savage (1943). This was a follow-up to Arabian Nights, reuniting Montez, Hall and Sabu; Bey was cast in the role of Montez's wastrel brother. Arthur Lubin directed and the movie was a hit.

Warner Bros borrowed Bey to play a small role in Background to Danger (1943), a George Raft movie set in Turkey.

Stardom
Bey was receiving a lot of fan mail, and Universal began to build him into a star. Hedda Hopper called him a "Turkish Valentino."

He was top billed in the horror film The Mad Ghoul (1943), with Evelyn Ankers.

When Sabu enlisted in the army, Bey took his place in Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves (1944), a Technicolor spectacular with Montez and Hall directed by Lubin. Bey was top billed, and the film was very popular. Bey had a cameo in Universal's all-star Follow the Boys (1944).

Bey was meant to be reunited with Montez and Hall in Gypsy Wildcat (1944) when MGM borrowed him to play a Chinese in Dragon Seed (1944) starring Katharine Hepburn and Walter Huston. His part in Wildcat went to Peter Coe.

Dragon Seed earned over $4 million but lost money due to its high cost. Bey said the experience of working at MGM was "very exciting" although he "almost preferred the way Universal worked, because it was faster and less time consuming."

Back at Universal, Bey was the romantic male lead in the big-budget The Climax (1944) with Boris Karloff and Susanna Foster, an unsuccessful attempt to duplicate the success of Phantom of the Opera (1943). He had a key role in the musical Bowery to Broadway (1944), a vehicle for Jack Oakie.

In 1944, a poll by exhibitors of "Stars of Tomorrow" listed Bey at number nine.

In May 1944, Universal announced it would star him in Return of the Sheik.

Universal put Bey and Foster in the Western Frisco Sal (1945). He was more comfortably cast in Sudan (1945), with Montez and Hall.

MGM wanted Bey for a part in Weekend at the Waldorf, but Universal and Walter Wanger wanted him for another film so he could not do it (George Zucco played the role). The Wanger film was Night in Paradise (1946), with Bey playing Aesop opposite Merle Oberon for director Arthur Lubin. Bey admitted to often arriving late on set, something he later regretted. The movie was a box-office flop and damaged Bey's standing in Hollywood.

Army service
As a Turkish subject, Bey had not been eligible to be called by the draft board. That changed when Turkey declared war on Germany in February 1945, and in June, Bey was inducted into the army at Fort MacArthur.

He served at Santa Ana Army Air Base for a time and performed in a version of Carmen at Fort Roberts.

Bey was in the army for 18 months, which halted his career's momentum.

When he got out, Universal offered him a film that Bey refused, and he was put on suspension. It sold his contract, which had three years to go, to Eagle-Lion.

Bey later recalled his time at Universal as "very pleasant, very constructive; the end, unfortunately, a big flop but c'est la vie...It was a studio of cooperation where the biggest producer was never too big to listen to you...I should have been a little more serious about my work but I was very young."

Eagle-Lion Productions
Bey made four films with Eagle-Lion. The first was the comedy Out of the Blue (1947) with George Brent and Virginia Mayo. Bey followed it with the swashbuckler Adventures of Casanova (1948), supporting Arturo de Córdova. Bey made the thriller The Amazing Mr. X (1948) with Lynn Bari. His fourth film for Eagle-Lion was Parole, Inc (1948) with Michael O'Shea.

In August 1948, he appeared on stage in The Second Man in Princeton.

Final films as star
Bey made Song of India (1949) at Columbia with Sabu and Gail Russell. The film was not a success.

He bought an interest in a cafe in Palm Springs. The same year, he tried to get financing for a film on Sir Edward Coke, A Lion Under the Throne.

In Austria he produced, but did not star in, Stolen Identity (1953).

He returned to Hollywood and was cast in Sam Katzman's Prisoners of the Casbah (1953), billed after Gloria Grahame and Cesar Romero. He announced he had set up his own production company, Metropolitan Pictures, and wanted to produce but not star in Dikov, a film about a boy and his bird.

Return to Hollywood
Turhan returned to the United States in the early 1990s. He appeared in episodes of SeaQuest 2032, Murder, She Wrote, VR.5, and The Visitor. He also guest-starred in two episodes of the TV series Babylon 5: first as the emperor of the Centauri Republic (who also had the name Turhan), and later as a Minbari Ranger named Turval.

Bey was in the Fred Olen Ray thriller Possessed by the Night (1994), the drama Healer (1994), The Skateboard Kid 2 (1995), and Grid Runners (1995).

The documentary ''Vom Glück verfolgt. Wien – Hollywood – Retour'', made in 2002 by Andrea Eckert, was about him.

Another documentary in which he appeared was film historian Scott MacQueen's Extra Bonus, filmed in 2000.

Personal life
Bey was romantically linked with Lana Turner at one time. In September 1944, he had a brawl over Turner with the latter's ex-husband Stephen Crane. His relationship with Turner ended when he went into the army.

Death
Turhan died on 30 September 2012 from Parkinson's disease. He was cremated at Feuerhalle Simmering, where his ashes are buried next to his mother's.

In popular culture
In the 1948 Warner Brothers "Merrie Melodies" cartoon, "A-lad-in-His Lamp", a map of the Bagdad area appears. On the map, there is a geographic feature called "Turhan Bay".

Turhan Bey's long absence from Hollywood was referenced in the first part of the 1969 Get Smart episode "To Sire, with Love". Maxwell Smart claims that after appearing in an unspecified movie involving mummies, Bey was cursed, and his career never recovered.

In a 1980 episode of Alice titled "Dog Day Evening", Vera uses Turhan Bey's name in a rhyming game.

In a season three episode of M*A*S*H, titled "Bombed," Henry Blake, after losing the first good toothbrush he's received in six months, laments that he had teeth like Turhan Bey while using it.

title: Turhan Bey


text:
People's Budget

The 1909/1910 People's Budget was a proposal of the Liberal government that introduced unprecedented taxes on the lands and incomes of Britain's wealthy to fund new social welfare programmes. It passed the House of Commons in 1909 but was blocked by the House of Lords for a year and became law in April 1910.

It was championed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, David Lloyd George, and his young ally Winston Churchill, who was then President of the Board of Trade and a fellow Liberal; called the "Terrible Twins" by certain Conservative contemporaries.

William Manchester, one of Churchill's biographers, called the People's Budget a "revolutionary concept" because it was the first budget in British history with the expressed intent of redistributing wealth equally amongst the British population. It was a key issue of contention between the Liberal government and the Conservative-dominated House of Lords, leading to two general elections in 1910 and the enactment of the Parliament Act 1911.

Overview
The Budget was introduced in the British Parliament by David Lloyd George on 29 April 1909. Lloyd George argued that the People's Budget would eliminate poverty, and commended it thus:

"This is a war Budget. It is for raising money to wage implacable warfare against poverty and squalidness. I cannot help hoping and believing that before this generation has passed away, we shall have advanced a great step towards that good time, when poverty, and the wretchedness and human degradation which always follows in its camp, will be as remote to the people of this country as the wolves which once infested its forests."

The budget included several proposed tax increases to fund the Liberal welfare reforms. Income tax was held at nine pence in the pound (9d, or 3.75%) on incomes less than £2,000, which was equivalent to roughly £225,000 in today's money—but a higher rate of one shilling (12d, or 5%) was proposed on incomes greater than £2,000, and an additional surcharge or supertax of 6d (a further 2.5%) was proposed on the amount by which incomes of £5,000, or more (approximately £566,000 today) exceeded £3,000 (£340,000 today approx.). An increase was also proposed in death duties and naval rearmament.

More controversially, the Budget also included a proposal for the introduction of complete land valuation and a 20% tax on increases in value when land changed hands. Land taxes were based on the ideas of the American tax reformer Henry George. This would have had a major effect on large landowners, and the Conservative-Unionist opposition, many of whom were large landowners, had had an overwhelming majority in the Lords since the Liberal split in 1886. Furthermore, the Conservatives believed that money should be raised through the introduction of tariffs on imports, which would benefit British industry and trade within the Empire, and raise revenue for social reforms at the same time; but this was also unpopular as it would have meant higher prices on imported food. According to economic theory, such tariffs would have been very beneficial for landowners, especially tariffs on agricultural produce, but the costs to ordinary consumers would have exceeded the gains to these landowners (see Corn Laws).

Constitutional stand-off
The Northcliffe Press (who published both The Times and the Daily Mail) urged rejection of the budget to give tariff reform a chance. There were many public meetings, some of them organised by dukes, which portrayed the budget as the thin end of the socialist wedge. Lloyd George gave a speech at Newcastle upon Tyne in October 1909 in which he said that "a fully-equipped duke costs as much to keep up as two Dreadnoughts; and dukes are just as great a terror and they last longer". The Conservatives wanted to force an election by rejecting the budget.

The Lords were entitled by convention to reject but not to amend a money bill but had not rejected a budget for two centuries. Originally, the budget had included only annual renewals of existing taxes—any amendment to taxes was part of a separate Act. That ended in 1860 when the Lords rejected the repeal of paper duties, which would have benefited new cheaper newspapers aimed at men who hoped soon to be given the right to vote, at the expense of existing papers. From then on, all taxes were included in the Finance Bill, and no such bill had been rejected, including the controversial introduction of death duties by Sir William Harcourt in 1894.

Despite Edward VII's private urgings for the budget to be passed to avoid a crisis, the House of Lords vetoed the new budget on 30 November 1909 although it clarified that it would pass the bill as soon as the Liberals obtained an electoral mandate for it. The Liberals countered by proposing to reduce the power of the Lords. That was the main issue of the general election in January 1910, setting the stage for a tremendous showdown, which Lloyd George relished.

Despite the heated rhetoric, opinion in the country was divided. The Unionists, with 47% of the votes, were outpolled by the Liberals and their allies from the Labour Party. The outcome was a hung parliament, with the Liberals relying on Labour and the Irish Parliamentary Party for their parliamentary majority. As the price for their continued support, the Irish nationalist MPs demanded measures to remove the Lords' veto so that they could no longer block Irish Home Rule. They even threatened to vote down the Budget in the House of Commons (Irish Nationalists favoured tariff reform and abhorred the planned increase in whisky duty ) until Asquith pledged to introduce such measures.

As they had promised, the Lords accepted the Budget on 28 April 1910, but contention between the government and the Lords continued until the second general election in December 1910, when the Unionists were again outpolled by their combined opponents. The result was another hung parliament, with the Liberals again relying on Labour and the Irish Parliamentary Party. Nonetheless, the Lords passed the Parliament Act 1911 when faced with the threat, obtained from a narrowly-convinced new King George V (Edward VII having died on 6 May 1910, seven days after the Budget was passed), that it would be acceptable to flood the House of Lords with hundreds of new Liberal Party peers to give that party a majority or a near-majority there.

General and cited references

 * Blewett, Neal. The peers, the parties and the people : the British general elections of 1910 (1972) online

 * Daunton, Martin. Trusting Leviathan: The Politics of Taxation in Britain 1799–1914 (Cambridge University Press, 2001), chapter 11.online

 * Gilbert, Bentley Brinkerhoff. "David Lloyd George: Land, The Budget, and Social Reform". American Historical Review 81.5 (1976): 1058–1066. online
 * Gilbert, Bentley Brinkerhoff. David Lloyd George A Political Life: The Architect of Change 1863–1912 (Ohio State University Press, 1987), pp 361-398
 * Grigg, John. Lloyd George, the people's champion, 1902-1911 (1978). pp.170–291. online

 * Jenkins, Roy. Mr. Balfour's poodle: an account of the struggle between the House of Lords and the government of Mr. Asquith. (1968) online
 * Lee, Geoffrey. The People's Budget: An Edwardian Tragedy (Shepheard-Walwyn, 2008).

 * Morgan, Kenneth O. "‘Rare and refreshing fruit’: Lloyd George's People's Budget." Public Policy Research 16.1 (2009). https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1744-540X.2009.00551.x

 * Murray, Bruce K. The People's Budget, 1909-10: Lloyd George and Liberal Politics (Oxford University Press. 1980).
 * Murray, Bruce K. "The Politics of the 'People's Budget'." Historical journal 16#3 (1973): 555–570. . also online
 * Murray, Bruce K. "The Unionist Leaders and the rejection of the 'People's Budget', 1909." South African Historical Journal 8.1 (1976): 84–103.
 * Watson, Steven. "The Budget and the Lords: the Crisis of 1909–11." History Today (1953) 3#4 pp. 240–248. online
 * Watson, Steven. "The Budget and the Lords: the Crisis of 1909–11." History Today (1953) 3#4 pp. 240–248. online

title: People's Budget


text:
The Return of the Pink Panther

The Return of the Pink Panther is a 1975 comedy film and the fourth film in The Pink Panther series. The film stars Peter Sellers returning to the role of Inspector Clouseau for the first time since A Shot in the Dark (1964), after having declined to reprise the role in Inspector Clouseau (1968). The film was a commercial hit and revived the previously dormant series and with it Peter Sellers' career.

Herbert Lom reprises his role as Chief Inspector Charles Dreyfus from A Shot in the Dark. Also reprising their roles from the previous film are André Maranne as François and Burt Kwouk as Cato; the three thereafter became regulars in the series. The character of Sir Charles Litton is played by Christopher Plummer. David Niven, who played the part in The Pink Panther (1963), was unavailable. The stolen Pink Panther diamond once again plays a central role in the plot.

Plot
In the fictional country of Lugash, a mysterious thief seizes the Pink Panther diamond and leaves a white glove embroidered with a gold "P." With its national treasure once again missing, the Shah of Lugash requests the assistance of Inspector Clouseau of the Sûreté, as Clouseau had recovered the diamond the last time it was stolen. Clouseau has been temporarily demoted to beat cop by his boss, Chief Inspector Charles Dreyfus, who despises him to the point of obsession, but the French government forces Dreyfus to reinstate him. Clouseau joyously receives the news and duly departs for Lugash, but not before fending off a surprise attack from his servant Cato, who had been ordered to do so to keep the Inspector on his toes.

Upon examining the crime scene in the national museum — in which, due to his habitual clumsiness, he wrecks several priceless antiques — Clouseau concludes that the glove implicates Sir Charles Litton, alias "the notorious Phantom," as the thief. After several catastrophic failures to stake out Litton Manor in Nice, Clouseau believes a mysterious assassin is attempting to kill him. He follows Sir Charles' wife, Lady Claudine Litton, to the Gstaad Palace hotel in Switzerland in search of clues to her husband's whereabouts, and repeatedly bungles the investigation.

Meanwhile, Sir Charles is teased about the theft by his wife, and realizes he has been framed. Arriving in Lugash to clear his name, Sir Charles barely avoids being murdered and sent to the Lugash secret police by his associate known as the "Fat Man", who explains that with the leading suspect dead, the secret police will no longer have an excuse to continue purging their political enemies. Escaping to his suite, Litton finds secret police Colonel Sharki waiting for him, who implies the Fat Man's understanding is correct, but reminds him the diamond must be recovered eventually. Sir Charles pretends to cooperate, but is unable to hide his reaction when he recognizes a face on the museum's security footage. He avoids another plot by the Fat Man and his duplicitous underling Pepi and escapes from Lugash, secretly pursued by Sharki, who believes Sir Charles will lead him to the diamond.

In Gstaad, Clouseau, still tailing Lady Claudine, is suddenly ordered by Dreyfus over the telephone to arrest her in her hotel room. However, when Clouseau calls back to clarify the order, he is told that Dreyfus is on vacation. Sir Charles, who in the meantime has chartered a private flight out of Lugash, arrives at the hotel and is first to confront his wife. Lady Claudine admits she stole the jewel to spark excitement in their lives. Colonel Sharki shows up, but just as he prepares to kill them both, Inspector Clouseau barges in. Sir Charles explains things to Clouseau, and Sharki is about to kill the three of them. However, Dreyfus has followed Clouseau and is outside the hotel room with a rifle — Dreyfus is in fact the "mysterious assassin" who has been trying to kill Clouseau all this time — and just as Dreyfus shoots at Clouseau, the Inspector ducks to check if his fly is undone, and the shot kills Sharki instead. The other three take cover, while Dreyfus, insanely enraged by his latest failure to kill Clouseau, goes berserk until he is arrested.

For once again recovering the Pink Panther, Clouseau is promoted to Chief Inspector, while Sir Charles resumes his career as a jewel thief. At a Japanese restaurant in the epilogue, Cato unexpectedly attacks Clouseau again and triggers a massive brawl, destroying the premises; Clouseau chastises Cato for his ill timing but then attempts to attack the latter from behind, only to fail and crash into the kitchen causing more damage. Dreyfus is committed to a lunatic asylum for his actions, where he is straitjacketed inside a padded cell and vows revenge on Clouseau. The film ends when the Pink Panther (in cartoon form) enters Dreyfus' cell and, after watching the credits roll by, films him writing "The End" on the wall with his foot.

Production
In the early 1970s, Blake Edwards wrote a 15–20 page outline for another Pink Panther film and presented it to series producer Walter Mirisch. The producer loved the idea, but the franchise's distributor and main backer, United Artists, rejected the film as they had no interest in working with Edwards nor Peter Sellers, whose careers had declined.

British producer Lew Grade agreed to finance two films for Blake Edwards as part of a deal to get Edwards' wife, Julie Andrews, to appear in a TV special for him. The first movie was The Tamarind Seed. Edwards wanted to make a project set in Canada called Rachel and the Stranger, but Grade disliked the idea and offered to buy Edwards out of the second commitment. Edwards wanted to make a second movie, however, in order to help restore his tainted reputation in Hollywood. Grade said he then suggested making a new Pink Panther film and Edwards agreed, if Sellers would also agree to do it. Grade managed to talk Sellers into it and the project was on. UA agreed to give The Return of the Pink Panther to Grade in exchange for world distribution and a share of the profits; thereafter, Grade's company would permanently own worldwide rights to the film. Grade said that Eric Pleskow of United Artists was offered the chance to come into the movie as a partner but declined, thinking the movie would be a financial failure; he only wanted UA to distribute.

Richard Williams, later the animation director on Who Framed Roger Rabbit, did the animated open and closing titles for this picture and The Pink Panther Strikes Again, as DePatie–Freleng was then unavailable due to its workload producing the Pink Panther shorts and other televised and theatrical animated projects. Williams got help animating this from two noted animators, Ken Harris and Art Babbitt. Carol Cleveland, best known for her regular appearances on Monty Python's Flying Circus, appears in one scene, diving into a swimming pool. A soundtrack album, featuring Henry Mancini's score for the film, was released by RCA Records. A novelization, written by the film's co-writer, Frank Waldman, was belatedly published by Ballantine Books in March 1977 (ISBN 0345251237). In British cinemas the film was preceded by the short film Where The Americas Meet.

Critical reception
In The New York Times, Vincent Canby gave the film a positive review, writing, "Clouseau is the very special slapstick triumph of Mr. Sellers and Mr. Edwards." Variety called it "another very funny film about the eternal gumshoe bungler, Inspector Clouseau. 'The Return of the Pink Panther' is in many ways a time capsule film, full of brilliant sight gags and comedic innocence." Gene Siskel of the Chicago Tribune gave the film 2 stars out of 4, finding Sellers' first scene funny but for the rest of the movie, "we not only know when each and every joke is coming; we know exactly what that joke will be." Charles Champlin of the Los Angeles Times wrote that the film was "I think, not up to what went before. Its calculations show and the inspector is somehow too entirely the buffoon, lacking a redeeming pathos I seem to remember from the earlier outings. But in its vigorous and bulls-eye way 'The Return of the Pink Panther' is a cheerful escape from all the things that ail us." Gary Arnold of The Washington Post called it "a frequently hilarious and generally satisfying return to comic form on the part of Peter Sellers, recreating the role of the hapless but dogged French sleuth." Penelope Gilliatt of The New Yorker wrote that Sellers was "working here at his best." The film holds a score of 84% on Rotten Tomatoes based on 19 reviews, with an average rating of 6.7 out of 10.

Box office
The film grossed $41.8 million in the United States and Canada and $75 million worldwide.

Home media
The film had been released on VHS, Betamax, CED and Laserdisc in the 1980s by Magnetic Video, CBS/Fox Video, and J2 Communications respectively. In 1993 and 1996, LIVE Home Video under the Family Home Entertainment label re-released the film on VHS as part of the Family Home Entertainment Theater lineup and on a Widescreen Laserdisc. In 1999, Artisan Entertainment (LIVE's successor) re-released the film on VHS and debuting on DVD for the first time in the original widescreen format. The only bonus material seen on this release were cast filmographies, production notes and the film's original theatrical trailer.

In 2006, rights holder Granada (owners of the ITC catalog) sub licensed the film to Universal Studios Home Entertainment under Focus Features for distribution in the US and UK, with a new, bare-bones release featuring an anamorphic widescreen transfer being released in 2006 by Universal in both territories. In 2015, the 2006 UK DVD was reissued by Fabulous Films still under licence from Universal and ITV Studios (who acquired Granada and the ITC library), followed by a UK Blu-ray release by Fabulous in 2016.

As Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer has since acquired US theatrical rights, along with worldwide television and digital distribution rights, Universal/Focus and ITV still have all remaining worldwide rights for the film. Due to its licensing output deals with both MGM and Universal, Shout! Factory included this film, along with the other Peter Sellers Pink Panther films, as part of a 6-disc set for the first time on Blu-ray under their Shout! Select label. The set was released on June 27, 2017, thus making it the first Pink Panther film collection to include the film. Ironically, Universal was also responsible for MGM/UAR film releases both in physical home media and international theatrical distribution rights.

title: The Return of the Pink Panther


text:
Submarine power cable

A submarine power cable is a transmission cable for carrying electric power below the surface of the water. These are called "submarine" because they usually carry electric power beneath salt water (arms of the ocean, seas, straits, etc.) but it is also possible to use submarine power cables beneath fresh water (large lakes and rivers). Examples of the latter exist that connect the mainland with large islands in the St. Lawrence River.

Design technologies
The purpose of submarine power cables is the transport of electric current at high voltage. The electric core is a concentric assembly of inner conductor, electric insulation, and protective layers (resembling the design of a coaxial cable). Modern three-core cables (e.g. for the connection of offshore wind turbines) often carry optical fibers for data transmission or temperature measurement, in addition to the electrical conductors.

Conductor
The conductor is made from copper or aluminum wires, the latter material having a small but increasing market share. Conductor sizes ≤ 1200 mm2 are most common, but sizes ≥ 2400 mm2 have been made occasionally. For voltages ≥ 12 kV the conductors are round so that the insulation is exposed to a uniform electric field gradient. The conductor can be stranded from individual round wires or can be a single solid wire. In some designs, profiled wires (keystone wires) are laid up to form a round conductor with very small interstices between the wires.

Insulation
Three different types of electric insulation around the conductor are mainly used today. Cross-linked polyethylene (XLPE) is used up to 420 kV system voltage. It is produced by extrusion, with an insulation thickness of up to about 30 mm; 36 kV class cables have only 5.5 – 8 mm insulation thickness. Certain formulations of XLPE insulation can also be used for DC. Low-pressure oil-filled cables have an insulation lapped from paper strips. The entire cable core is impregnated with a low-viscosity insulation fluid (mineral oil or synthetic). A central oil channel in the conductor facilitates oil flow in cables up to 525 kV for when the cable gets warm but rarely used in submarine cables due to oil pollution risk with cable damage. Mass-impregnated cables have also a paper-lapped insulation but the impregnation compound is highly viscous and does not exit when the cable is damaged. Mass-impregnated insulation can be used for massive HVDC cables up to 525 kV.

Armoring
Cables ≥ 52 kV are equipped with an extruded lead sheath to prevent water intrusion. No other materials have been accepted so far. The lead alloy is extruded onto the insulation in long lengths (over 50 km is possible). In this stage the product is called cable core. In single-core cables the core is surrounded by concentric armoring. In three-core cables, three cable cores are laid-up in a spiral configuration before the armoring is applied. The armoring consists most often of steel wires, soaked in bitumen for corrosion protection. Since the alternating magnetic field in AC cables causes losses in the armoring those cables are sometimes equipped with non-magnetic metallic materials (stainless steel, copper, brass).

AC or DC
Most electrical power transmission systems use alternating current (AC), because transformers can easily change voltages as needed. High-voltage direct current transmission requires a converter at each end of a direct current line to interface to an alternating current grid. A system using submarine power cables may be less costly overall if using high-voltage direct current transmission, especially on a long link where the capacitance of the cable would require too much additional charging current. The inner and outer conductors of a cable form the plates of a capacitor, and if the cable is long (on the order of tens of kilometres), the current that flows through this capacitance may be significant compared to the load current. This would require larger, therefore more costly, conductors for a given quantity of usable power to be transmitted.

Alternating current cables
Alternating-current (AC) submarine cable systems for transmitting lower amounts of three-phase electric power can be constructed with three-core cables in which all three insulated conductors are placed into a single underwater cable. Most offshore-to-shore wind-farm cables are constructed this way.

For larger amounts of transmitted power, the AC systems are composed of three separate single-core underwater cables, each containing just one insulated conductor and carrying one phase of the three phase electric current. A fourth identical cable is often added in parallel with the other three, simply as a spare in case one of the three primary cables is damaged and needs to be replaced. This damage can happen, for example, from a ship's anchor carelessly dropped onto it. The fourth cable can substitute for any one of the other three, given the proper electrical switching system.

Submarine power cables under construction

 * 500 MW capacity, 165 km DC Maritime Transmission Link between the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador and the province of Nova Scotia.
 * British and Danish power companies (National Grid and Energinet.dk, respectively) are building Viking Link, a 740 km cable to provide the two countries with 1,400 MW transmission by 2022.
 * Black Sea submarine electric cable with a capacity of 1 GW and voltage of 500 kV will transfer green electricity from Azerbaijan through Georgia, Romania, Moldova to the EU. It is estimated to be approximately 1100 km in length and to be built in late 2029.

Proposed submarine power cables

 * Australia–ASEAN Power Link (AAPL), or the Australia–Singapore Power Link (ASPL), is a proposed electricity infrastructure project that is planned to include the world's longest submarine power cable. A solar farm in Northern Territory, Australia, will produce 10 gigawatts of electricity, most of which will be exported to Singapore by a 4,500 km (2,800 mi) 3 GW HVDC transmission line.
 * EuroAsia Interconnector, a 1,520 km submarine power cable, reaching depths of up to 3 km under sea level, with the capacity to transmit 2,000 megawatts of electricity connecting Asia and Europe (Israel–Cyprus–Greece)
 * Champlain Hudson Power Express, 335-mile line. The Transmission Developers Company of Toronto, Ontario, is proposing "to use the Hudson River for the most ambitious underwater transmission project yet. Beginning south of Montreal, a 335-mile line would run along the bottom of Lake Champlain, and then down the bed of the Hudson all the way to New York City."
 * Power Bridge, Hawaii
 * Power Bridge, State of Maine
 * Puerto Rico to the Virgin Islands
 * 400 kV HVDC India to Sri Lanka
 * 220 kV HVAC, 225 megawatts, 117 km Malta–Sicily interconnector between Magħtab, Malta, and Ragusa, Sicily.
 * The 58.9-km, 161-kV Taiwan Island to the Penghu Islands submarine power cable system (T–P-cable), the first submarine project of the Taiwan Power Company (Taipower) at this level, scheduled for completion in 2014. On 24 December 2010, the Taiwan-Penghu Undersea Cable Project of Taipower was approved to connect the electrical grid in Taiwan Island to the Penghu Islands.
 * The British and Icelandic Governments are supposedly in "active discussion" to build a cable (Icelink) between Scotland and Iceland to carry geothermal power to Scotland. It would be 1,000 to 1,500 km long "and by far the longest in the world." assuming a longer cable not yet built like the proposed 4,200 km Australia–Singapore cable
 * FAB between Great Britain and France via Alderney Island in the Channel Islands.
 * EuroAfrica Interconnector, a 1,707 km submarine power cable, reaching depths of up to 3 km under sea level, with the capacity to transmit 2,000 megawatts of electricity connecting Africa and Europe (Egypt–Cyprus–Greece)
 * 11 kV submarine replacement cables connecting Liu Ko Ngam and Pak Sha Tau Tsui at Kat O, Northeast Hong Kong, approximately 880 m in length.

title: Submarine power cable


text: User:SebastianHelm/dusttail

title: User:SebastianHelm/dusttail