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Treasure trove

A treasure trove is an amount of money or coin, gold, silver, plate, or bullion found hidden underground or in places such as cellars or attics, where the treasure seems old enough for it to be presumed that the true owner is dead and the heirs undiscoverable. An archaeological find of treasure trove is known as a hoard. The legal definition of what constitutes treasure trove and its treatment under law vary considerably from country to country, and from era to era.

The term is also often used metaphorically. Collections of articles published as a book are often titled Treasure Trove, as in A Treasure Trove of Science. This was especially fashionable for titles of children's books in the early- and mid-20th century.

Terminology
Treasure trove, sometimes rendered treasure-trove, literally means "treasure that has been found". The English term treasure trove was derived from tresor trové, the Anglo-French equivalent of the Latin legal term thesaurus inventus. In 15th-century English the Anglo-French term was translated as "treasure found", but from the 16th century it began appearing in its modern form with the French word trové anglicized as trovey, trouve or trove. The term wealth deposit has been proposed as a more accurate alternative.

The term treasure trove is often used metaphorically to mean a "valuable find", and hence a source of treasure, or a reserve or repository of valuable things. Trove is often used alone to refer to the concept, the word having been reanalysed as a noun via folk etymology from an original Anglo-French adjective trové (cognate to the French past participle trouvé, literally "found"). Treasure trove is therefore akin to similar Anglo-French or Anglo-French-derived legal terms whereby a post-positive adjective in a noun phrase (contrary to standard English syntax) has been reanalysed as a compound noun phrase, as in court martial, force majeure, and Princess Royal. Phrases of this form are often used either with the etymologically correct plural form (for example, "Courts-martial deal with serious offences ...") or as fully rederived plural forms (such as "... ordering court-martials ..."). In the case of treasure trove, the typical plural form is almost always treasure troves, with treasures trove found mostly in historical or literary works.

Roman law
In Roman law, treasure trove was called thesaurus ("treasure" in Latin), and defined by the Roman jurist Paulus as "vetus quædam depositio pecuniæ, cujus non extat memoria, ut jam dominum non habeat" (an ancient deposit of money, of which no memory exists, so that it has no present owner). R. W. Lee, in his book The Elements of Roman Law (4th ed., 1956), commented that this definition was "not quite satisfactory" as treasure was not confined to money, nor was there any abandonment of ownership. Under the emperors, if treasure was found on a person's own land or on sacred or religious land, the finder was entitled to keep it. However, if the treasure was found fortuitously, and not by deliberate search, on another person's land, half went to the finder and half to the owner of the land, who might be the emperor, the fiscus (public treasury), the city, or some other proprietor. According to Dutch jurist Hugo Grotius (1583–1645), as the feudal system spread over Europe and the prince was looked on as the ultimate owner of all lands, his right to the treasure trove became jus commune et quasi gentium (a common and quasi-international right) in England, Germany, France, Spain and Denmark.

An interpretation of Roman law regarding treasure trove makes an appearance in the 13th chapter of the Gospel of Matthew. The Parable of the Hidden Treasure is told by Jesus of Nazareth to the crowds surrounding him and his disciples. In the parable, the treasure trove is hidden in a field, which is open country and anyone could conceivably discover something hidden in that location. It is also assumed that the present owner has no knowledge or memory of the treasure. The finder of the treasure concealed the discovery until he could raise capital to purchase the land. Selling all he had, the finder purchased the land and then unearthed the treasure, to which he was entitled as both finder and landowner. Jesus compared the kingdom of Heaven to the treasure, being of greater value than all a person's earthly wealth and a wise investment that not everyone understands at first.

England and Wales common law
It has been said that the concept of treasure trove in English law dates back to the time of Edward the Confessor (c. 1003/1004–1066). Under the common law, treasure trove was defined as gold or silver in any form, whether coin, plate (gold or silver vessels or utensils) or bullion (a lump of gold or silver), which had been hidden and rediscovered, and which no person could prove he or she owned. If the person who had hidden the treasure was known or discovered later, it belonged to him or her or persons claiming through him or her such as descendants. To be treasure trove, an object had to be substantially – that is, more than 50% – gold or silver.

Treasure trove had to be hidden with animus revocandi, that is, an intention to recover it later. If an object was simply lost or abandoned (for instance, scattered on the surface of the earth or in the sea), it belonged either to the first person who found it or to the landowner according to the law of finders, that is, legal principles concerning the finding of objects. For this reason, the objects found in 1939 at Sutton Hoo were determined not to be treasure trove; as the objects were part of a ship burial, there had been no intention to recover the buried objects later. The Crown had a prerogative right to treasure trove, and if the circumstances under which an object was found raised a prima facie presumption that it had been hidden, it belonged to the Crown unless someone else could show a better title to it. The Crown could grant its right to treasure trove to any person in the form of a franchise.

It was the duty of the finder, and indeed of anyone who had acquired knowledge of the matter, to report the finding of a potential treasure trove to the coroner of the district. Concealing a find was a misdemeanour punishable with fine and imprisonment. The coroner was required to hold an inquest with a jury to determine who were the finders or the persons suspected to be the finders, "and that may be well perceived where one liveth riotously and have done so of long time". Where there had been an apparent concealment of treasure trove the coroner's jury could investigate the title of the treasure to discover if it had been concealed from the supposed owner, but any such finding was not conclusive as the coroner generally had no jurisdiction to enquire into questions of title to the treasure between the Crown and any other claimant. If a person wished to assert title to the treasure, he or she had to bring separate court proceedings.

In the early 20th century, it became the practice of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury to pay those finders who fully and promptly reported discoveries of treasure troves and handed them over to the proper authorities, the full antiquarian value of objects which were retained for national or other institutions such as museums. Objects not retained were returned to the finders.

The law regarding treasure trove was amended in 1996 so that these principles no longer hold (see § Present-day legal definitions: England, Northern Ireland, and Wales below).

Scottish common law
Under the common law of Scotland, the law of treasure trove was and still is a specialized application of the general rule governing bona vacantia ("vacant goods") – that is, objects that are lost, forgotten or abandoned. The rule is quod nullius est fit domini regis: "that which belongs to nobody becomes our Lord the King's [or Queen's]". The Crown in Scotland has a prerogative right to treasure trove for it is one of the regalia minora ("minor things of the king"), that is, property rights which the Crown may exercise as it pleases and which it may alienate (transfer to another party). As the Scottish law of treasure trove on the matter has not changed, it is discussed in the "Present-day legal definitions" section below, under the subheading "Scotland".

United States law
Many states in the U.S. enacted statutes that received English common law into their legal systems. For example, in 1863 the legislature of Idaho enacted a statute that made "the common law of England ... the rule of decision in all courts" of the state. However, English common law principles of treasure trove were not applied in the U.S. Instead, courts applied rules relating to the finding of lost and ownerless items. The treasure trove rule was first given serious consideration by the Oregon Supreme Court in 1904 in a case involving boys who had discovered thousands of dollars in gold coins hidden in metal cans while cleaning out a henhouse. The Court wrongly believed that the rule operated in the same way as early rules that awarded possession – and, effectively, legal title as well – to innocent finders of items that had been hidden or concealed and the owners of which were unknown. By awarding the coins to the boys, the Court implied that finders were entitled to buried valuables, and that any claims by landowners should be disregarded.

In subsequent years the legal position became unclear as a series of English and American cases decided that landowners were entitled to buried valuables. The Maine Supreme Judicial Court reconsidered the rule in 1908. The case before it involved three workers who had found coins while digging on their employer's land. The Court decided along the lines of the 1904 Oregon case and awarded the coins to the finders. For the next 30 years, the courts of a number of states, including Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Ohio and Wisconsin, applied this modified "treasure trove" rule, most recently in 1948. Since that time, however, the rule has fallen out of favour. Modern legal texts regard it as "a recognized, if not controlling, rule of decision", but one commentator has called it "a minority rule of dubious heritage that was misunderstood and misapplied in a few states between 1904 and 1948".

England, Northern Ireland, and Wales

Throughout the ages, farmers, archaeologists and amateur treasure hunters have unearthed important treasures of immense historical, scientific and financial value. However, the strictness of the common law rules meant that such items were sometimes not treasure trove. The items risked being sold abroad, or were only saved for the nation by being purchased at a high price. Mention has already been made of the objects comprising the Sutton Hoo ship burial, which were not treasure trove as they had been interred without any intention to retrieve them. The objects were later presented to the nation by their owner, Edith May Pretty, in a 1942 bequest. In March 1973, a hoard of about 7,811 Roman coins was found buried in a field at Coleby in Lincolnshire. It was made up of antoniniani believed to have been minted between AD 253 and 281. The Court of Appeal of England and Wales held in the 1981 case of Attorney-General of the Duchy of Lancaster v. G.E. Overton (Farms) Ltd. that the hoard was not treasure trove as the coins were bronze and did not have a substantial silver content. Thus, it belonged to the owner of the field and could not be retained by the British Museum.

To remedy the faults of the old treasure trove regime, the Treasure Act 1996 introduced a new scheme which came into effect on 24 September 1997. Any treasure found on and after that date regardless of the circumstances in which it was deposited, even if it was lost or left with no intention of recovery, belongs to the Crown, subject to any prior interests or rights held by any franchisee of the Crown. The relevant Secretary of State (currently meaning the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport) may direct that any such treasure be transferred or disposed of, or that the Crown's title in it be disclaimed.

The Act uses the term treasure instead of treasure trove; the latter term is now confined to objects found before the Act came into force. Objects falling within the following definition are "treasure" under the Act:

 * 1) If the object is not a coin, it must be at least 300 years old and at least 10% precious metal (that is, gold or silver) by weight.
 * 2) If the object is a coin, it must either be:
 * 3) *one of at least two coins in the same find which are at least 300 years old at that time and are at least 10% precious metal by weight; or
 * 4) *one of at least ten coins in the same find which are at least 300 years old at that time.
 * 5) Any object at least 200 years old when found which belongs to a class of objects of outstanding historical, archaeological or cultural importance that has been designated as treasure by the Secretary of State. As of 2006, the following classes of objects had been so designated:
 * 6) *Any object, other than a coin, any part of which is base metal (that is, not gold or silver), which when found is one of at least two base metal objects in the same find which are of prehistoric date.
 * 7) *Any object, other than a coin, which is of prehistoric date, and any part of which is gold or silver.
 * 8) Any object which would have been treasure trove if found before 24 September 1997.
 * 9) Any object which, when found, is part of the same find as:
 * 10) *an object within head (1), (2), (3) or (4) above found at the same time or earlier; or
 * 11) *an object found earlier which would be within head (1), (2) or (3) above if it had been found at the same time.

Treasure does not include unworked natural objects, or minerals extracted from a natural deposit, or objects that have been designated not to be treasure by the Secretary of State. Objects falling within the definition of wreck are also not treasure.

Coroners continue to have jurisdiction to enquire into any treasure found in their districts, and into who are or are suspected to be its finders. Anyone finding an object he or she believes or has reasonable grounds to believe is treasure must notify the coroner for the district in which the object is found within 14 days starting from the day after the find or, if later, the day on which the finder first believes or has reason to believe the object is treasure. Not doing so is an offence. Inquests are held without a jury unless the coroner decides otherwise. The coroner must notify the British Museum if his or her district is in England, the Department of the Environment if it is in Northern Ireland, or the National Museum Wales if it is in Wales. The coroner must also take reasonable steps to notify any person who appears may have found the treasure; any person who, at the time it was found, occupied land which it appears may be where the treasure was found; and any other interested persons, including persons involved in the find or having an interest in the land where the treasure was found at that time or since. However, coroners still have no power to make any legal determination as to whether the finder, landowner or occupier of the land has title to the treasure. The courts have to resolve that issue, and may also review coroners' decisions in relation to treasure.

When treasure has vested in the Crown and is to be transferred to a museum, the Secretary of State is required to determine whether a reward should be paid by the museum before the transfer to the finder or any other person involved in the finding of the treasure, the occupier of the land at the time of the find, or any person who had an interest in the land at the time of the find or has had such an interest at any time since then. If the Secretary of State determines that a reward should be paid, he or she must also determine the market value of the treasure (assisted by the Treasure Valuation Committee), the amount of the reward (which cannot exceed the market value), to whom the reward should be paid and, if more than one person should be paid, how much each person should receive.

In England and Wales, finders of objects that are not treasure or treasure trove are encouraged to voluntarily report them under the Portable Antiquities Scheme to finds liaison officers at county councils and local museums. Under the scheme, which started in September 1997, the officers examine finds and provide finders with information on them. They also record the finds, their functions, dates, materials and locations, and place this information into a database which can be analysed. The information on the findspots may be used to organize further research on the areas. Non-treasure finds remain the property of their finders or landowners, who are free to dispose of them as they wish.

On 5 July 2009 the largest single Anglo-Saxon hoard as of that date, consisting of over 1,500 gold and precious metal pieces, helmets and sword decorations tentatively dated to around AD 600–800, was discovered by Terry Herbert in Staffordshire, England. Herbert reported the find to his local Portable Antiquities Scheme officer, and on 24 September 2009 it was declared to be treasure by the South Staffordshire coroner.

In 2019 two metal detectorists, Lisa Grace and Adam Staples, discovered a hoard of 2,528 silver coins spanning the Norman Conquest of 1066. Around half the silver coins depicted the defeated Harold II and half depicted the victorious William the Conqueror. A small number of the coins were 'mule' coins with designs from both reigns, believed to have been the product of early tax evasion, where the minters failed to purchase the up to date die. As at August 28, 2019, the Avon Coroner is yet to rule on the find. The hoard has been described as extremely significant by experts, including the curator of medieval coinage at the British Museum. Avon and Somerset council has expressed a desire to obtain the collection for display in Bath, if it is declared treasure.

Scotland
The Treasure Act 1996 does not apply in Scotland, where treasure trove is dealt with under the common law of Scotland. The general rule that governs bona vacantia ("vacant goods")—that is, objects that are lost, forgotten or abandoned—is quod nullius est fit domini regis ("that which belongs to nobody becomes our lord the king's [or queen's]"), and the law of treasure trove is a specialized application of that rule. As in England, the Crown in Scotland has a prerogative right to treasure trove for it is one of the regalia minora ("minor things of the king"), that is, property rights which the Crown may exercise as it pleases and which it may alienate (transfer to another party).

To qualify as treasure trove, an object must be precious, it must be hidden, and there must be no proof of its property or reasonable presumption of its former ownership. Unlike under English common law, treasure is not restricted to only gold and silver objects. In 1888 a prehistoric jet necklace and some other articles found in Forfarshire were claimed by the authorities though they were neither gold nor silver. A compromise was eventually reached, and the find was deposited in the National Museum of Scotland. In July 1958, a porpoise bone was found together with 28 other objects of silver alloy (12 brooches, seven bowls, a hanging bowl and other small metal work) underneath a stone slab marked with a cross on the floor of St. Ninian's Church on St. Ninian's Isle in Shetland. The objects were dated to c. AD 800. A dispute having arisen over ownership of the objects between the Crown on the one hand, and the finder (the University of Aberdeen, which had carried out the archaeological excavation) and the landowner on the other, in Lord Advocate v. University of Aberdeen (1963) the Court of Session held that the bone should be regarded as treasure trove together with the silver objects. Further, the requirement that an object must be "hidden" means no more than that it must be concealed; it refers to the condition in which the object was found and does not refer back to the intention which the owner of the object may have had in hiding it. Finally, the requirement that there must be no reasonable presumption of former ownership means that it must not be possible to trace the ownership of the object to a person or family currently existing. Even if an object does not qualify as treasure trove, it may be claimed by the Crown as bona vacantia.

The King's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer (KLTR), an office held by the Crown Agent who is the senior officer of the Crown Office in Scotland, is responsible for claiming bona vacantia on behalf of the Crown in Scotland. Finders of items are required to report such finds to the Crown Office or to the Treasure Trove Unit (TTU) at the National Museums of Scotland in Edinburgh. Each find is assessed by the Scottish Archaeological Finds Allocation Panel, which recommends if the find should be claimed. If it is, the matter is referred by the TTU to the KLTR department at the Crown Office, which will inform the finder that it has accepted the Panel's recommendation to claim the objects in the find as treasure trove or bona vacantia.

The Panel also recommends to the KLTR a reward for the find based on its current market value where appropriate, and the most appropriate museum in Scotland to allocate it to. The TTU then contacts all museums which have bid for finds to advise them of the Panel's recommendations. The museums have 14 days in which to accept or reject the proposed allocation and reward for the find. If the KLTR accepts the Panel's recommendations, it will notify the finder of the amount of any reward being paid and the museum to which the find has been allocated. The KLTR also asks the museum to pay the finder's reward.

While a Treasury order of 1886 made provision for the preservation of suitable objects in various national museums and payment of rewards to their finders, the Crown is under no legal obligation to offer any rewards for treasure trove objects it has claimed. However, it usually does so, using the objects' market price as a guide. A reward may be withheld or reduced if the finder has inappropriately handled an object, for instance, damaged it by cleaning it or applying waxes and varnishes to it. Finders may elect to waive their rewards. Rewards are not paid for finds occurring during organized fieldwork.

State laws
The law of treasure trove in the United States varies from state to state, but certain general conclusions may be drawn. To be treasure trove, an object must be of gold or silver. Paper money is also deemed to be treasure trove since it previously represented gold or silver. On the same reasoning, it might be imagined that coins and tokens in metals other than gold or silver are also included, but this has yet to be clearly established. The object must have been concealed for long enough so it is unlikely that the true owner will reappear to claim it. The consensus appears to be that the object must be at least a few decades old.

A majority of state courts, including those of Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, New York, Ohio, Oregon and Wisconsin, have ruled that the finder of treasure trove is entitled to it. The theory is that the English monarch's claim to treasure trove was based on a statutory enactment which replaced the finder's original right. When this statute was not re-enacted in the United States after its independence, the right to treasure trove reverted to the finder.

In Idaho and Tennessee courts have decided that treasure trove belongs to the owner of the place where it was found, the rationale being to avoid rewarding trespassers. In one Pennsylvania case, a lower court ruled that the common law did not vest treasure trove in the finder but in the sovereign, and awarded a find of US$92,800 cash to the state. However, this judgment was reversed by the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania on the basis that it had not yet been decided if the law of treasure trove was part of Pennsylvania law. The Supreme Court deliberately refrained from deciding the issue.

Finds of money and lost property are dealt with by other states through legislation. These statutes usually require finders to report their finds to the police and transfer to their custody the objects. The police then advertise the finds to try to locate their true owner. If the objects remain unclaimed for a specified period of time, title in them vests in the finders. New Jersey vests buried or hidden property in the landowner, Indiana in the county, Vermont in the town, and Maine in the township and the finder equally. In Louisiana, French codes have been followed, so half of a found object goes to the finder and the other half to the landowner. The position in Puerto Rico, the laws of which are based on civil law, is similar.

Finders who are trespassers generally lose all their rights to finds, unless the trespass is regarded as "technical or trivial".

Where the finder is an employee, most cases hold that the find should be awarded to the employer if it has a heightened legal obligation to take care of its customers' property, otherwise it should go to the employee. A find occurring in a bank is generally awarded to the bank as the owner is likely to have been a bank customer and the bank has a fiduciary duty to try to reunite lost property with their owners. For similar reasons, common carriers are preferred to passengers and hotels to guests (but only where finds occur in guest rooms, not common areas). The view has been taken that such a rule is suitable for recently misplaced objects as it provides the best chance for them to be reunited with their owners. However, it effectively delivers title of old artefacts to landowners, since the older an object is, the less likely it is that the original depositor will return to claim it. The rule is therefore of little or no relevance to objects of archaeological value.

Due to the potential for a conflict of interest, police officers and other persons working in law enforcement occupations, and armed forces are not entitled to finds in some states.

Federal law
U.S. Federal laws governing recovery of treasure are governed by the Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979, Under ARPA, "archaeological resources" more than one hundred years old on public lands belong to the government. The term "archaeological resource" means any material remains of past human life or activities which are "of archaeological interest", as determined by federal regulations. Such regulations include, but are not limited to: pottery, basketry, bottles, weapons, weapon projectiles, tools, structures or portions of structures, pit houses, rock paintings, rock carvings, intaglios, graves, human skeletal materials, or any portion or piece of any of the foregoing items. The definition of "archaeological resource" and "archaeological interest" has been broadly interpreted under U.S. agency regulations in recent years to include nearly anything of human origin more than 100 years old, while permits to allow recovery of such items have been largely restricted to digs by credentialed archaeologists. The effect of ARPA as currently defined by federal regulations outlaws virtually all treasure hunting of items more than 100 years old, even treasure troves of gold and silver coin or scrip, under penalty of total forfeiture. Furthermore, the Federal policy against spoliation and removal of "archaeological resources" of any type from federal or Indian lands, even coins and scrip less than 100 years old, means it is unlikely that a finder of gold or silver coinage on Federal lands will prevail with an argument that the find constitutes a treasure trove of coinage, but rather "embedded property" that belongs to the property owner, i.e. the government. The broad use of ARPA to target not only archaeological looting but also to prohibit all treasure hunting on federal or Indian lands has been criticized on the grounds that total prohibition and forfeiture simply encourages concealment or misrepresentation of the age of the found coinage or treasure trove, thus hampering archaeological research, as archaeologists cannot study items that when found will never be reported.

France
Since 1803 in France, treasure troves are defined according to the French Civil Code under Article 716. The Code States that treasure is defined as “any object hidden or buried which no one can justify as his property and it is discovered by the pure effect of chance”. Under French law, the treasure is divided equally between the landowner and the finder of the treasure. However, under Article L542-1 of the Code du Patrimoine, metal detectorists and searchers must officially obtain permission before searching for treasure, declaring their intent is for archaeological purposes.

General

 * , paras. 1077–1100.
 * , paras. 1161–1163.
 * , paras. 1039–1040.
 * , paras. 1161–1163.
 * , paras. 1039–1040.
 * , paras. 1039–1040.

Cases

 * Attorney-General v. Moore [1893] 1 Ch. 676
 * Attorney-General v. Trustees of the British Museum [1903] 2 Ch. 598
 * Attorney-General of the Duchy of Lancaster v. G.E. Overton (Farms) Ltd. [1982] Ch. 277, C.A.
 * Lord Advocate v. University of Aberdeen 1963. S.C. 533
 * R. v. Thomas & Willett (1863) Le. & Ca. 313, 12 W.R. 108

Attribution:

United Kingdom

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 * , 2 pts.

title: Treasure trove


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Bloody Kisses

Bloody Kisses is the third studio album by the American gothic metal band Type O Negative and the last recording with their original lineup, as drummer Sal Abruscato left the group in late 1993 to join labelmates Life of Agony. The album includes two of their best known songs, "Christian Woman" and "Black No. 1 (Little Miss Scare-All)", both of which earned the band a considerable cult following. The album further established recurring motifs of the band's music, such as including cover songs recorded in their own unique style, sample-heavy soundscape interludes and lyrics replete with dry, satirical humor.

Bloody Kisses is notable for being the first album released on Roadrunner Records to be certified Gold by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), in November 1995. It was certified Platinum by the RIAA in December 2000.

Music and lyrics
Considered a classic in the gothic metal genre, Bloody Kisses is "saturated with complex patterns of sound" layered with Peter Steele's trademark baritone vocals and lyrics relating to topics such as sex, religion, image, racism and death.

According to Decibel, Bloody Kisses "featured infectious doom-pop epics ("Black No. 1 (Little Miss Scare-All)", "Christian Woman"), sarcastic hardcore screeds ("Kill All the White People", "We Hate Everyone")" and bizarre noise interludes ("Fay Wray Come Out and Play", "Dark Side of the Womb", "3.0.I.F.")".

"Black No. 1 (Little Miss Scare-All)" is "a sarcastic ode to goth girls (and their trademark, black hair dye) based on a narcissistic ex-girlfriend of singer/songwriter Peter Steele".

Bloody Kisses includes a cover of the classic Seals & Crofts' track, "Summer Breeze". Type O Negative's original recording of the song included alternate lyrics, written by Peter Steele, and was retitled "Summer Girl". However, original songwriters Seals & Crofts, found Steele's "Summer Girl" lyrics distasteful and the band was forced to re-record the vocals and remix the track with the song's original lyrics and title intact.

When played in its entirety, top to bottom, the album's songs and noise interludes constitute one seamless composition. The band would continue this tradition on the World Coming Down LP released in 1999.

The album features additional vocal performances from close friends of the band, including Mina Caputo, Joey Zampella and Alan Robert of fellow Brooklyn-based alt-metal band Life of Agony, who are credited as "Erasmus High School Boys Special Ed." in the album's liner notes.

Founding member, drummer Sal Abruscato, would leave the band shortly after the album's completion due to Peter Steele's reluctance to commit to touring. Abruscato would join Life of Agony full-time after performing on the band's debut album, River Runs Red, recorded later that same year. River Runs Red was produced and mixed by Type O Negative keyboardist/producer Josh Silver, and was also released on Roadrunner Records in 1993. Both albums became very successful releases for the record label, and Life of Agony, with Abruscato, would open for Type O Negative during the initial Bloody Kisses tour of '93–'94.

The album artwork depicts several locations of Green-Wood Cemetery, Brooklyn, photographed by John Wadsworth.

Critical reception
Bloody Kisses received mostly positive reviews. Steve Huey of AllMusic gave the album a 4.5 out of 5 and wrote that "though it sounds like a funeral, Bloody Kisses' airy melodicism and '90s-style irony actually breathed new life into the flagging goth metal genre". Rock Hard gave the album a 10 out of 10 rating.

Accolades
In 2005, Bloody Kisses was ranked number 365 in Rock Hard's book of The 500 Greatest Rock & Metal Albums of All Time. Loudwire called Bloody Kisses the best album of 1993, in addition to ranking it at number 42 on its Top 90 Hard Rock and Heavy Metal Albums of the 90s. Rolling Stone placed Bloody Kisses at number 53 on its Top 100 Greatest Heavy Metal Albums of All Time list, citing memorable songs such as "Christian Woman", "Bloody Kisses (A Death in the Family)", their cover version of "Summer Breeze", and "Black No. 1". The latter was cited by the author J. D. Considine as the band's signature song.

Track listing
All music and lyrics written by Peter Steele unless otherwise noted.

Bloody Kisses (1993 digipak re-release)
Shortly after the initial release of Bloody Kisses in 1993, Roadrunner Records reissued the album in a tri-fold digipak. This reissue featured an alternate track listing. The new track listing revised the running order and removed all of the soundscape interludes and the two "hardcore" songs ("Kill All The White People" and "We Hate Everyone") and replaced them with a previously unreleased, over eight minute long, slow and very "gothic" sounding track titled, "Suspended In Dusk". The intro track, "Machine Screw" and the first four seconds of the song, "Christian Woman" were also removed on this release, omitting Peter Steele's spoken intro to the track ("Forgive her..."). This slightly edited version of "Christian Woman" is exclusive to this digipak reissue. The digipak re-release and its aforementioned changes, were done specifically at the request of bassist/singer/songwriter, Peter Steele.

In an interview for the liner notes of the remastered, "Top Shelf Edition" reissue of Bloody Kisses in 2009, Steele said that although he hated ripping off the public (by releasing two versions of the album), he felt it was his opportunity to fix what he believed was a musical mistake. Guitarist Kenny Hickey, who was not a fan of "Suspended In Dusk", noted that the digipak version of the album was Steele trying to move into the vision of the band fully realized on 1996's "October Rust".

Producer and keyboardist, Josh Silver had stronger feelings on the digipak version of Bloody Kisses, stating, "the digipak sucks". Silver went on to say that part of what makes Type O Negative great is the, "eclectic insanity" - going from songs like 'Black No. 1' to 'Kill All The White People' and that brilliance was a "happy accident". Silver noted that Peter, "didn't have to understand where it came from, he just had to play it. But Peter wanted continuity, so the digipak was released."

"Summer Breeze" was initially recorded by the band as "Summer Girl" with lyrics parodying the original, but "Summer Breeze" songwriters Seals and Croft objected to the lyrical changes and the song was re-recorded with the original lyrics before the album's official release date. "Summer Girl" remains unreleased but it did appear on a pre-release, promotional version of "Bloody Kisses", simply titled, "?". "Summer Girl" has since circulated online.

The digipak version contains alternate artwork and an amended booklet that reflects the re-ordering and changing of the tracks. Another change is found in the album's liner notes which contain the title of and lyrics for "Summer Girl" instead of "Summer Breeze". The parody lyrics of "Summer Girl" are included such as, "Kenny Hickey lying on the sidewalk, Devil music from the house next door". Josh Silver said the misprint was a mistake by Roadrunner Records. The recorded song is unchanged. The standard release of the album was pressed with the original "Summer Breeze" lyrics and title in the liner notes.

Bloody Kisses - The Top Shelf Edition (2009 remastered, expanded edition re-release)
On May 5, 2009, Roadrunner Records re-issued a newly remastered version of Bloody Kisses known as Bloody Kisses - The Top Shelf Edition. This reissue included the original album remastered for the first time, along with a bonus CD of rarities and B-sides. The package also included expanded liner notes featuring additional photos and a brand new, exclusive interview with the band on the "making of" and the "legacy of" Bloody Kisses.

Credits

 * Peter Steele – lead vocals, bass guitar
 * Kenny Hickey – backing vocals, co-lead vocals on "Black No. 1 (Little Miss Scare All)" and "We Hate Everyone", acoustic guitar, electric guitar
 * Josh Silver – backing vocals, keyboards, synthesizers, sound effects, electronic programming
 * Sal Abruscato – drums, percussion

Additional personnel

 * Paul Bento – sitar, tamboura
 * The Bensonhoist Lesbian Choir – additional vocal performance
 * Erasmus High School Boys Special Ed. – additional vocal performance
 * Bonnie Weiss, Karen Rose, Debbie Alter, Chris Zamp, & Life Of Agony (Alan Robert, Joey Zampella, Mina Caputo, & Mike Palmeri) – additional vocal performance
 * Brooklyn Philharmonic Orchestra (Verdigris Phlogiston conducting)

Production credits

 * Produced by Peter Steele/Josh Silver
 * Recorded at Systems Two, Brooklyn, NY
 * Additional Recording at Sty In The Sky, Brooklyn, NY
 * Mastered by George Marino at Sterling Sound, NYC
 * John Wadsworth – photography
 * Jeff Kitts – portrait photography

Bloody Kisses – The Top Shelf Edition (2009) reissue credits

 * Re-issue producer – Monte Connor
 * Project Coordinator – Steven Hartong
 * Re-mastered by George Marino at Sterling Sound, NYC, January 2009
 * Liner notes – J. Bennett
 * Design – Mr. Scott Design
 * Additional photography – John Wadsworth and Joseph Cullice

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Bloody Kisses


text:
User:Left&right

My world view is an unpredictible mixture of left & right wing viewpoints. This means I dont agree with hardly anyone about everything, but with most people on some things.

title: User:Left&right


text:
Talk:Reflex syncope

Personal histories not generally helpful ("Not a Discussion Forum")
Just a reminder, the talk page is not a discussion forum for sharing your personal stories. Please refrain from filling it up with your own detailed medical histories or experiences. While they may be relevant, they are only anecdotal, and Wikipedia requires verifiable information from recognized, published sources such as medical journals, clinical studies, and so on. If you have some knowledge of the subject through something your doctor told you for example, please try to find a published citation that supports that information. Detailed information about your medical history (your age, weight, medications, type and frequency of symptoms, triggers, treatments, how long or how often you have been ill, personal theories of the disease, what happened to you last month, etc.) are, as a general principle, not relevant to the goal of writing an encyclopedia article on the subject. Thanks for your understanding! IamNotU (talk) 11:26, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

 * @IamNotU - In addition to your valuable comments, I am adding this information for inexperienced editors.
 * NEVER offer any medical advice here on Wikipedia. If you want to add biomedical information to an ARTICLE, be sure it is from a very reliable source or a peer-reviewed journal.
 * WP:NOMEDICAL = [in big fat letters] = "WIKIPEDIA DOES NOT GIVE MEDICAL ADVICE"
 * WP:MEDRS == "Biomedical information must be based on reliable, third-party published secondary sources, and must accurately reflect current knowledge." [...]
 * "Ideal sources for biomedical information include: review articles (especially systematic reviews) published in reputable medical journals; academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant fields and from respected publishers; and guidelines or position statements from national or international expert bodies. Primary sources should generally not be used for medical content, as such sources often include unreliable or preliminary information..."
 * Thank you for taking this seriously, Wordreader (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2023 (UTC) Wordreader (talk) 23:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking this seriously, Wordreader (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2023 (UTC) Wordreader (talk) 23:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Causes incorrect
The causes listed in this section, according to the citation, are related to the more general "vasomotor syncope" rather than "vasovagal syncope" as indicated. For example, P.O.T.S., orthostatic hypotension, low blood sugar, etc., are separate causes of syncope (fainting) in general. I don't think any of those can be said to be causes of *vasovagal* syncope, which is itself a separate cause of syncope. Comments? IamNotU (talk) 12:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I agree. Also, there's no specific mention of nor link with Hypervagaltonia and Sinus node dysfunction / Sick sinus syndrome. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 14:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Expansion of page + Link to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Need more on the Heredity issue - my mother and one aunt have this, as does one daughter. Mare148 (talk) 16:52, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

fwiw, I think it deserves its own page, separate from Vagus Response, because people who come looking for the info may not be aware of the connection. "See Also" is the right kind of connection, I think, between the pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.252.9.145 (talk) 15:14, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

 * If anyone wants to assist, I think this page could use some upkeep and expansion. As it stands right now this page is somewhat messy and missing some highly relevant information.
 * Here is a link to a highly informative online article on Orthostatic intolerance, in particular Neurally Mediated Hypotension (NMH, aka neurocardiogenic syncope), the condition most associated with vasovagal syncope.
 * This article needs more clarification of its connection to conditions such as NMH and to orthostatic intolerance in general.
 * Also, the treatment section should be updated, such as to mention the importance of increased salt and water consumption in fending off syncopal episodes.
 * Another topic worth mentioning, is the link between NMH (which can manifest as vasovagal syncope) and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS). This link is well documented in several peer reviewed journal articles (citations can be found here).  It is also mentioned in an informative emedicine.com article on orthostatic intolerance, which will be valuable for updating this article (along with the wikipedia article on Orthostatic Intolerance).  Here are a few other links discussing the connection between NMH (or vasovagal syncope) and CFS:.
 * So, I propose that changes to this page and the Orthostatic Intolerance page should be made and be coordinated. Furthermore, these pages should be expanded and organized to give a clear definition of the relation of vaso-vagal syncope to conditions of orthostatic intolerance, to include the name(s) of the conditions which are associated with vaso-vagal syncope, and to include more information on treatment and the link to CFS.
 * One other question is whether these conditions should still be subsumed under the article vaso-vagal syncope, considering that vaso-vagal syncope is generally caused by the condition neurally mediated hypotension, yet NMH does not always result in syncope.
 * -- 19:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing the following sentence: "It is worth noting that on rare occasions, a fainter may die if forced to remain upright." Does anyone have a citation or study for this outcome? — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:03, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * As a sufferer i was given that exact advice from my doctor, if i am not allowed to sit or fall during a fit the blood loss to the brain can be fatal. --Seth Turner 10:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I am also chronic sufferer (I "black out" from an episode 5-10 times a week). While being diagnosed, my cardiologist instructed me to lay down in order for my body to restore blood-flow, but when I black out these days (My condition showed itself when I was 5, I am now 19), if it is not practical to lay down, I don't. I can remain upright for a black-out via learned a learned behavior ("rocking" in a circular motion while standing). I haven't noticed anything negative about this, although I am not a medical doctor. I can't rule out the mentioned "rare occasions" though.--SirGrok 07:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Wow, I can't believe that I haven't looked at this talk page before now, or I would have answered this a long time ago. I have vasovagal syncope and I was told that by my former doctor (though I wasn't the one who originally put that in the article). The idea is, if there's low blood pressure and what little blood volume there is is pooling in the legs, then that means there won't be enough blood in the brain, and the brain will become starved for oxygen and other nutrients. Jacqui ★ 04:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There does not need to be a study of death by inappropriate treatment documented many thousands of years ago and regrettably in more than one coroners report.

Actualy its more like seeing static than blurry vision. Like the snow screen you get when your telivision isnt tuned in. Baiscaly for me its total blindness during the syncope.--Seth Turner 10:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * There does need to be a citation for a comment like that. It doesn't have to be a randomized clinical trial. It could be a reference from a medical textbook. I personally think there is far more danger from being allowed to fall down and hit your head on the pavement. Yes, your blood pressure drops during vasovagal syncope, and yes, you should gently lie the patient down to a supine position. But death? From holding a vasovagal syncope upright? Sounds like mythology to me, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. MoodyGroove 19:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

 * You're looking for Suspension trauma -- Falling down increases blood flow to the brain. If the person remains upright -- usually because they are trapped in a harness -- they may not be able to restore blood flow to the brain, and they could die.  Moving your legs causes a pumping action that prevents blood from pooling in the legs. --Mdwyer 16:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I am 53 years old and reasonably fit non smoker etc. I was recently diagnosed with vasovagal syncope brought on by dehydration amongst other things. During Tilt Table Testing my heart stopped for 21 seconds before being revived by medical means. I now have a pacemaker fitted to guarantee a minimal pulse rate of 50 bpm. It operates mostly around 3-4 am when statistically more people die in their sleep (circadien rythm ?). So I now beleive VVS can be a killer. Ian Roberts

--- Only have time to quickly note a slightly different situation described by Ian (heart stopping) vs. the above discussion re: 'dying from remaining upright' during vasovagal response. I only mention it because your heart stopping is clearly rather bad for you (I have had this happen to patients from vagal response to peritoneal stretching; other classics are eye surgery etc), whereas the poor perfusion while upright is in somewhat of a different range of urgency! I wish I had time to search for data, but - if it helps - it appears to be somewhat counter-intuitive to be able to keep oneself upright for long enough to cause death, despite proprioception etc being controlled at a low/basic level. Whilst I would imagine nothing is impossible, I could only think that one would have to be kept passively upright (a harness was mentioned, although these typically seem to keep one in a semi-crouched position, and the head would drop) to force a situation resembling the described danger. The crucial difference would be that normally there is a slight delay between a sudden blood pressure change (standing quickly, vagal storm or whatever), and the baroceptors noticing & feeding back instructions to increase perfusion via increased stroke volume, higher heart rate, increased peripheral resistance etc; a very brief delay is not uncommon in everyday people (sometimes perceptible), whereas people with such a propensity might have a longer delay (slower restoration of perfusion). This is still a delay however (otherwise you would expire; you would never be able to stand under any circumstances), although it may cause temporary loss of consciousness. The difference in the proposition of death by remaining upright, is that there is no temporary relief during this intervening period of poor perfusion, by your head (and body) falling to a lower level (syncope); however, one would also have to assume that the expected response (physiological restoration of blood pressure) would somehow either then be absent, or that the delay was extremely long (cerebral ischaemia causing permanent damage typically reported as e.g. 3 minutes onward). Much like aviation, one could postulate that several problems might well have to occur simultaneously for this to have any likelihood of an effect! (i.e. when one considers serious co-morbities, then any cause of a transient hypotension might have a knock-on effect - or a slower return to homeostasis). As a separate issue, complete asystole - as described by Ian Roberts - is incompatible with life, and being in any position including (passively!) upright, upside down or whatever is irrelevant to your blood, which would be static! Returning to the proposed mechanism, however, when one considers the risks from simply falling during syncope - which are very real - the possiblity of being able to remain upright and then have no physiological response to a critical lack of perfusion seems very remote. Having said that - as any infant intuitively knows - it is clearly good common sense to sit or lie immediately when one feels faint (for any reason)!

Stepping outside of scientific consideration, the idea of dying whilst standing upright (for this reason) sounds suspiciously like an urban myth; however, I don't want to dismiss something out of hand without any evidence! By that same measure, to include such a proposal in Wikipedia (which informs both the general public, and is even 'trusted' by some healthcare students nowadays) is an exceptional claim, and would require very clear (i.e. exceptional) evidence, lest we simply spread 'what we heard somewhere' into an internet 'what I read somewhere'.... This, of course, is entirely separate from the rather obvious advice to not remain standing when you feel faint!

Please don't interpret this as a medical opinion - I am not qualified, allowed, nor would be able to give such advice even if I was silly enough to try! If you suffer from a related problem, talk to your doctor about your concerns; hopefully they will be as interested in the idea as I am! Shane Wilde (clinician & medical student).

 * Perhaps we should include some information about Suspension trauma in this article, then.  Would you like to add it?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:21, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

-

I've had VVS for about 20 years (will be 33 in 28 days or so) normal mild episodes occur after kneeling of sitting cross-legged then standing quickly and happen for about 2-5 seconds (feels like 2-5 minutes). I recently had 2 very bad episodes with total blackouts taking 15 - 20 minutes to recover from and lasting between 2 and 5 minutes before recovery starts). I broke my leg 3 months ago and have been spending most of my time lying down since then.  I have just started doing workouts with weight machines at my Physical Therapist appointments an two visits in a row I completely blacked out.  The episodes start with a tightness in the chest, similar to a heart attack, as the heart starts having problems pumping the blood around the body (pooling in the legs, which I also have large quantities of varicose veins around my ankles), then you start to feel like you aren't breathing even though you are (similar to an asthma attack), followed by light-headedness.  At this point it is like the really old CRT TV's and Monitors, everything starts to look like the snow on the tv (I never thought of it like that till I read this page), kind of speckled between what is real and darkness and like the computer monitor, it slowly fades out into darkness in a pulsing manner (with your heart beat, where after each beat it is brighter, then fades further in to darkness right after). If I am still standing at this point I start to fall over (similar to falling asleep in school, when your head starts nodding), most times this is enough to drive my consciousness to try and force my body to "wake up" giving me a brief second or 1.5 seconds of cognition to attempt to lay down or find support to lean on before it is lights out. My PT suggested that I might have VVS an has directed me to a neurologist and a cardiologist to check for VVS and Orthostatic Hypotension. She said that what occurs is with my increased heart rate and decreased blood pressure that the valves in my veins are either not constricting completely or are not reacting fast enough and the blood follows gravity with more efficiency than the valves are able to counter-act. I had not heard of it before, but had been having this happen, as I mentioned above, for about 20 years maybe longer, I used to think it was cool and would do it on purpose to freak people out, or while alone because I thought it felt "neat", no I never did drugs and I drink about 2-4 beers ever 3-8 months; although I drank massive amounts of whiskey for 3.5 years while in college. I hope this helps, might want to check with some cardio and neural specialists on this, or even some physical therapists, 3 of the PTs in the office I was at were familiar with OSH and its symptoms and treatments and one had familiarity with VVS. (Finndo (talk) 13:48, 16 April 2010 (UTC))

Ginger Ale?
How would ginger ale help? I haven't done any research outside of reading that line, but as far as I know, modern day ginger ale is no different from any other soda in terms of ingredients.

 * That entire line seems somewhat spurious, regardless, as the end of the sentence directly before it clearly mentions increasing fluid and salt intake. Plus there's a comma splice! Yuck.  I'll clean it up a bit.  - Zowch 09:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

 * When I was on active treatment, I was ordered to drink .5 gallons of Gatorade (or any other electrolyte heavy fluid a day). This was for the sodium and the electrolytes. I was also taking 1gm of sodium by tablet a day (in addition to eating a salt heavy diet) and Flourinef (I do not remember the dosage... I was probably 100 lbs at the time of the treatment). I have never heard about ginger ale being a home-remedy. --SirGrok 19:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

New Comment: 67.231.168.88 (talk) 11:40, 10 November 2011 (UTC)10Nov11 rviewer@prtcnet.com I have not personally tried ginger ale, but I can see the logic. The soothing effects of ginger ale on the digestive tract make sense. I have apparently been experiencing this vagus nerve distress since August 2000, for a long while not understanding the phenomena or its triggers. However, I have observed that certain ingested irritants increase the likelihood of the "attacks" --only some of which lead to syncope. Among the irritants are food coloring prevalent in many flavored drink mixes, swallowing toothpaste, and (of course) the dehydration, stress, and sleep deprivation already mentioned in the article. In my case, the symptoms are consistent --almost orgasm-like feeling of queasiness, flushing, and imminent threat that I might either "throw up or pass out"-- which lasts ~ 2 minutes. Once a single attack has occurred, it is almost always followed by more attacks within a 2-5 day period --presumably because it takes that amount of time for intestinal irritation to subside. My responses are to assume a head-down position in any safe way I can or to immediately tense abdomen and legs (G-suit response --forcing blood back into the upper body) if driving a motor vehicle. Additionally, once an attack has begun, it is usually a very bad idea to introduce any new gastro-intestinal stimulants (like taking a sip of a cold drink, for example) as they might overstimulate the nerves and result in fainting. From personal observation, there are generally two triggers: either some kind of bowel activity or a large amount of warm water or air passing over the top of my head.

Contradiction??
"Vasovagal syncope (also vasodepressor syncope ...[truncated]... It is important to realize that vasovagal syncope and vasodepressor syncope are NOT the same." (Quoted from the version on 8/10/2006.)

This is a contradiction. Either vasovagal syncope is also known as vasodepressor syncope or they are not the same. Someone with medical expertise, please clairfy. Jxyama 17:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that looks like a mess. I am not a doctor; I have the condition. None of my doctors have used the term vasodepressor syncope on me, though. Nevertheless, a quick look at the web in Google shows a few places where the terms appear to be used interchangably: This one includes two more names for the condition? This one lists a cause I've never heard of?

LIS, I'm not a doctor, and frankly I know this diagnosis is somewhat controversial. It was only "discovered" five to ten years back and I think they are still working out what is and isn't part of this diagnosis. Anyway, I'm going to add the expert tag and do nothing else for now. Jacqui ★ 13:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a touch of input. I have Vasodepressor Syncope, as was directly diagnosed, and a few things seem to be quite different between that and the vasovagal condition described above. In my case (I was told it is a typical case)The heartrate skyrockets(upwards of 200 bpm at rest) and bloodpressure drops(somewhere into the low 20's). This results in a pooling of blood in the feet, and a lack of blood in the brain. As far as I understand, VDS is actually heart-initiated, where VVS is initiated by a lack of blood in the core of the body. Same results, different reasons. Understand that this is simply an explanation from one doctor to a patient, and conformation would be reccomended. -Jason

Note: the IP address that added the disputed section has many vandalization messages on its talk page. Nevertheless, IPs can be shared by many people and so we should still look into this carefully. Jacqui ★ 13:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Vasovagal syncope, vasodepressor syncope, neurocardiogenic syncope, and situational syncope all refer to the same form of syncope.(http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=7713) I believe neurally-mediate syncope is also synonymous.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.124.68.252 (talk) 05:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Prognosis
I removed from the article the sentance, "It may also be associated with certain psychiactric disorders." There's no citation for this. Is this true? And if it is, what psychiatric disorders are associated? --Brokenchairs (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Last time i was told by ER techs, it can be caused by Anxiety 172.189.6.182 (talk) 07:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I was just diagnosed with vvs today, for me these episodes occur only when I smoke pot. I do not think that the cause of these episodes are due directly from this drug but during the time, my consiousness is altered as anyone who smokes should know, and I become super sensitive to things. The first two times it happened i was in the shower and it was really steamy in the room and i felt like i was suffocating..the other time i was watching pulp fiction and got really anxious due to the scenes in the movie. My fainting episodes usuallys start with me feeling dizzy and overwhelmed becuase I feel like i can't breathe. Then things become blurry and I "fade" out and then I pass out. My doc told me to just make sure I lie down when I feel the oncoming of any episode and to increase blood circ. to my brain. Also, I am a stylist so I am on my feet all day, and then I exercise 5 days a week after work...but although I consider myself pretty healthy, I know that I do not drink enough water and I do smoke cigarettes which causes dehydration, and with the addition of pot... I think that it is the ultimate dehydration and THAT is why I have my episodes. Does anyone know anything about marijauna users and vvs?BAM721 (talk) 16:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)BAM721

Being complicated
Instead of saying 'sayone faints', would 'someone Vasovagal syncopes' make sense just to be complicated to people? 86.135.42.213 (talk) 14:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Triggers
I have always been a sufferer of vasovagal syncope, triggered by medical procedures. Most often, it is receiving injections.. I'll be fine during the injection, but within 5 minutes I lose blood pressure and start feeling very queasy, to the point of fainting. Sometimes, it takes merely thinking about medical procedures to trigger the effect. Once, I was at a friend's apartment and he was flipping through TV channels, and came across a liposuction procedure on Discovery.. Very harsh and painful looking procedure, it makes me feel uncomfortable even thinking about it as I type this.. But I had to ask him to change the channel because I felt like I was going to faint. ..My point is, this is my personal experience based anecdotal citation for adding the "viewing/experiencing medical procedures" to the Triggers section. Weasel5i2 (talk) 08:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I suffer from vasovagal syncope during injections as well. Last night, I suffered one after watching a very realistic dramatization of phlebectomy. I have no problem watching extremely gory and violent films, but in this case, because the situation was made to be as realistic and matter-of-fact as possible, it brought back memories of being hospitalized during the influenza outbreak of 1962 (at the age of 2), and down I went.

I don't see a reference to alcohol as either a trigger or at least a contributor. I am an occasional sufferer and when I discussed it with my doctor he immediately asked about alcohol consumption, which was a common factor in my case, and said that it was a "usual" factor (his term) in a vasovagal episode. If anyone can cite this I suggest it would be a useful addition. Delverie (talk) 18:10, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Including the mammalian diving reflex hyperlink as a potential cause is wrong. the mammalian diving reflex causes bradycardia and vasoconstriction, whereas vasovagal syncope causes bradycardia and vasodilation. I'm not going to remove it, because I lack the authority. 22/05/2011 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.215.177 (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Beta blockers
Are beta blockers still used for Postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, which also involves vasovagal syncope? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

New source
The British Medical Journal has a good overview (free) on this topic here. It might be useful for cleaning up some of this article and/or sourcing some of the parts that already exist and are correct. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Vasodepressor syncope management by sufferer
Nellbednarz (talk) 16:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC) I am in my 50s and have suffered with vasodepressor syncope all my life. I was misdiagnosed with hypoglycemia in 1981 and lived on a no-sugar diet for many years. That did help, because sugar acidifies the blood and makes calcium dump out of your system (as does caffeine, phosphoric acid from soft drinks, and hyper-ventilating since too much O2 acidifies the blood), and causes blood to pool in the legs. My daughter began showing symptoms while in elementary school, sometimes being so severe that we thought she was having a heart attack. The doctor that diagnosed her from her symptoms was the head of pediatric cardiology in Texas Children's Hospital in Houston, Tx. While he was explaining that this is a disorder that is congenital (genetic) and tied to mitral valve prolapse, my daughter turned to me and said "This is what makes you so faint sometimes".

I was diagnosed by a Tilt Table Test at Houston Arrythmia Center in 2006, with a textbook reaction and fainting. My blood pressure soared to 160/100, triggering a delayed but profound reaction of my brain telling the adrenal glands to dump a lot of adrenal to lower the blood pressure, which caused the blood pressure to drop so low that it could not be measured. Those of us with this disorder often have problems with anxiety because we are pumping a lot of adrenaline on a daily basis. This can lead to adrenal exhaustion.

Vasovagal syncope can happen to almost anyone, vasodepressor syncope happens in families and is usually life-long, since it is linked to the gene that causes mitral valve prolapse (according to Dr. Timothy Bricker). Years ago, I concentrated on how I could help my daughter have a more normal life. She was struggling to have enough energy to make it through a day at school (the dehydration capital of the world). It seemed that calcium/electrolyte dumping was a major problem for both of us, resulting in extreme hot flashes then diarrhea. The trigger was usually food-related, and we found that eating sugar or having caffeine from chocolate or coffee was the common cause. Drinking 1/2 of a coffee-based drink put my daughter in the hospital ER, and she was told never ever to have coffee or caffeine. Our medical bill for that episode is still very convincing. Caffeine causes blood to pool in the legs, as does sugar, starving the heart, which will exert a lot of pressure on your right arm to get more blood. It hurts to the point of disabling you.

As a trained scientist, I naturally wanted to find answers for our sudden fatique problems. In digging to find a way to stabilize the calcium in our systems, I read Dr. Robert Atkins "Vita-Nutrient Solution" about how different nutrients work, usually needing a balance to keep us healthy. Vasodepressor syncope is not discussed in that book, but the balance of electrolytes (which is crucial in our living healthy lives) is covered very well. The amino acids are covered, and while reading about the functions of taurine, I made an important discovery.

Taurine is not the muscle-building type of amino acid; it primarily functions in maintaining calcium, magnesium and other electrolytes where they belong, rather than letting the minerals go where they do not belong. Taurine stabilizes pressure in the eye, controls the viscosity of bile and other fluids, and even acts as a diuretic only if you have too much water in your body compared to electrolytes.

I decided that we would try using taurine to keep our calcium from dumping. In the years since my discovery (2006), practice has taught me this -- I need to take 1000 mg. of taurine with each meal and before exercise about 3000 mg per day but can go up to 5000 mg/day in 1000 mg doses), as well as massive supplementation of magnesium, calcium, zinc, manganese, and other minerals, keeping proportions balanced. This is therapeutic doses as described by Dr. Atkins. Magnesium is often the limiting factor. Without enough magnesium, you will feel chronically dehydrated and suffer muscle cramps.

Supplementation of the B vitamin complex is also essential to dampen the anxiety response. I find that I need sublingual B-12 every day to keep up my energy, and that B-12 pills only give you 2% of the vitamin whereas sublingual (under-the-tongue application held 30 seconds) gives you about 98% of the vitamin. I learned that anything with too much sugar caused problems, including Gatorade, so my practice is to carry salt packets with me in case of a major muscle cramp (especially the heart or lungs) and drink plenty of water. To balance the potassium and sodium intake, it is important to use "salt substitute" (potassium salts) on food, which gives about 17% of the daily need.

Avoiding sugar can be a struggle, and sugar substitutes can cause bowel problems. Fructose seems to be tolerated better and not cause so much calcium dumping, but my current favorite sweetener is Stevia (Truvia is a current brand). Recipes for stevia can be found online. Bananas and grapes have too much sugar, but berries and low-sugar fruits are the ideal dessert.

I give this advice as a sufferer of vasodepressor syncope, not as an MD. I have found that most doctors don't know much about this disorder, and I have been my own guinea pig. Before I began working out this nutrient thing, I would have such severe muscle cramps that I would be bedridden for days. Now I rarely ever have to do more than rest with my feet up. The blood vessels in my legs don't break nearly as much as they once did and life is much more normal, but I still eat often (every 2 hours or so a small healthy snack like nuts), drink plenty of water all day, stay away from heat or heavy excerise, walk every day if possible (walking pumps the blood back to the heart), and take my nutrients throughout the day at meals, according to what is balanced. A doctor or nutritionist would help with this.

Of course, I try to stay calm and learned bio-feedback to help me with chronic anxiety. As a Believer in the Lord, I have found that turning my worries over to Him helps me stay focused and steady.

Please take time to have yourself tested with the Tilt Table Test, and have guidance in what you do. Taurine naturally lowers the blood pressure, so testing BP at waking will let you know if you really need blood pressure meds or not. Always tell your doctor if you are taking supplements to lower blood pressure. From NB in Texas Nellbednarz (talk) 16:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

 * @Nellbednarz - Never offer ANY medical advice here on Wikipedia. If you want to add biomedical information to the ARTICLE, be sure it is from a very reliable source or a peer-reviewed journal.
 * WP:NOMEDICAL = [in big fat letters] = "WIKIPEDIA DOES NOT GIVE MEDICAL ADVICE"
 * WP:MEDRS == "Biomedical information must be based on reliable, third-party published secondary sources, and must accurately reflect current knowledge."
 * [ ... ]
 * "Ideal sources for biomedical information include: review articles (especially systematic reviews) published in reputable medical journals; academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant fields and from respected publishers; and guidelines or position statements from national or international expert bodies. Primary sources should generally not be used for medical content, as such sources often include unreliable or preliminary information..."
 * Thank you for taking this seriously, Wordreader (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Need an expert in Wiki syntax to fix References problem
I could not figure out how to fix: References

1. ^ vasovagal attack at Dorland's Medical Dictionary will not affect my baby girl kaitlin.

I searched for "kaitlin" in the edit view of the page, and nothing came up. I'm sorry I can't do more, but I'm chronically ill so most days I can only do quick fixes, meaning sometimes I can only point out the problem and hope someone else will fix it. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geekdiva (talk • contribs) 05:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * no "will not affect my baby girl kaitlin" nonsense in currentversion - suggest refresh your page view. David Ruben Talk 20:40, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Merge vagus reflex
Vagus reflex currently covers same topic and is a mere stub to this article, listing just a limited selection of causes. David Ruben Talk 20:37, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Rename to vasovagal response

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved.  Ron h jones (Talk) 01:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Vasovagal episode → Vasovagal response — PubMed for "Vasovagal episode" =23 articles,"Vasovagal response" =64, "vasovagal attack" =18.

This article is on the physiological process, rather than being the extreme of fainting that may not occur. Hence "neurocardiogenic syncope" with 355 PubMed articles, is not an appropriate name (would be akin calling [neck sprain] by term [decapitation]). Likewise ICD10 code of R77 points to "Syncope and collapse" which is too general a process, of which this is but one cause.

Therefore, on basis of WP:MEDMOS "The article title should be the scientific or recognised medical name that is most commonly used...", I propose rename article to "Vasovagal response". David Ruben Talk 21:08, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

aftermath/resolution
The article needs detailed and extensive information about immediate and lingering after-effects. What is the mechanism of recovery from vvr? What makes it faster or slower? How long can there be subtle after-effects (such as lower than normal heartrate): hours? days? weeks? -71.174.188.137 (talk) 03:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Treatment Drugs
I am a 61-year-old man. I suffered my first episode of Vasovagal Syncope at age 4 or 5 when I cut my fingers playing with some discarded razor blades. My triggers continue to be blood related, including injections and blood draws, but it has also been triggered by painful injuries and most recently by food poisoning. When I was 33 years old a heart doctor threatened to install a pacemaker to remedy the problem. As an alternative he offered a prescription for an anticholinergic drug, Darbid. This is basically an ulcer medication. The drug worked, and I was episode free for many years. Darbid became unavailable and I was switched to Robinul Forte. Eventually I became accustomed to the stimuli and I did not need the drug. However, after being episode free without the drugs for about 8 or 9 years, I had another episode as a result of food poisoning. I now take the Robinul Forte again. My purpose in sharing this is to suggest to others, and the medical community, that perhaps anticholinergic drugs can help this problem for others without any significant side effects. 98.189.27.157 (talk) 21:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

 * Oral Theophyilline is also used in cases where the causative factor is hypervagaltonia. See the abstract at PubMed and follow link to full, free article:

 * "Clinical characteristics of hypervagotonic sinus node dysfunction", Korean J Intern Med. 2004 Sep;19(3):155-9, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15481606

 * Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 14:35, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Vasovagal response
My experienece of such a reaction was the result of post-prsndial hypotension. When eating or having eaten a substantial meal, especially in a hot room, i.e. when post-prandial (after a meal) blood pressure can drop substantially (hypotension)because blood flow falls to the stomach area to help digestion. Which reduces blood to the brain so you faint. The quicker you lie flat or, better, have your feet above your head height the quicker blood gets back to your brain and the quicker you recover. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.105.3.199 (talk) 11:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Yes. Raising feet above head has worked well for me.
 * I don't know if 'Vasovagal response' explains my previous passing out incidents, but it seems to fit.
 * I've also noticed feeling faint while cycling home late in the evening, after eating out. It's a feeling like being low on blood sugar. This didn't make sense to me until now. But I realise maybe my brain is low on oxygen because I'm digesting.
 * -- Harry Wood (talk) 12:36, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Signs and Symptoms
I think it is worth mentioning that syncope can be accompanied by seizure like behaviors (convulsions and eyes rolling back). This happened to my 9 yr old daughter yesterday and it lasted less than 10 seconds. Of course this was very frightening, but the E.R. doctor said that is was only syncope, (he said "fainting" or "passing out, probably caused the severe pain from her bumping her elbow/funny bone just before it happened) and not a seizure because: 1. She regained consciousness almost immediately after falling (becoming prone allowed her blood pressure to return to normal) 2. She was not groggy or "out of it" after she regained consciousness (it if were an actual seizure her brain would have needed 30-60 minutes to "reset" but she was her usual self immediately) 3. Her EKG was normal __________    source: http://www.medlink.com/medlinkcontent.asp Hbmh (talk) 15:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Genetic?
Hey, I'm just curious, since I didn't see anything definitive in the article, but is this disorder a heritable condition? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.247.173.255 (talk) 21:30, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

 * It is not really a disorder, just a predisposition or hypersensitivity to some trigger. The aetiology of the hypersensitivity is very diverse, certainly you will find cases of inheritance. Richiez (talk) 22:21, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Yes, http://www.neurology.org/content/79/6/561.abstract, fainting of this form was more common among identical twins than in fraternal pairs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaigePhault (talk • contribs) 13:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Evolutionary origin and potential benefits
The page as written is exclusively from a medical perspective and therefore not very useful as an encyclopedia page. I would like to see a more balanced perspective incorporating for example material from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18592129 that might explain the origin of this malady - if it is a malady. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaigePhault (talk • contribs) 13:30, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Small change
The following line in the opening paragraph, "Vasovagal syncope affects young adults more commonly." should be changed to "Vasovagal syncope more commonly affects young adults." Wisdomthatiswoe (talk) 15:37, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Go ahead, do it. You are allowed to.  If nobody likes it, it will soon be changed back.  E x nihil  (talk) 22:23, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Will do, thank you! Wisdomthatiswoe (talk) 15:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Walking to prevent syncope
This information came from a neighbor who is an occuptional therapist and I have searched the internet to see if anyone else mentions it. Have not found it. The instructionw were not to shuffel wehen walking. Step down hard to send send signals to the brain. The message reaches the brain at abour 200 mph. This works for me and another friend I explained it to. If you feel a bit light headed when rising from a chair then this is a good option to try. It really works for me. Jim R.   If you want let me know your thoughts    jiranz@cmhregional.com  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.68.205.2 (talk) 15:04, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

 * I would use caution with this suggestion. If you are standing and feel like you are about to pass out, walking may not be a wise choice. Immediately lying down might be a far better one. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 14:40, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

 * By the way, in your example of arising quickly from a chair can cause orthostatic hypotension, a separate situation from vasovagal response: http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/tc/fainting-topic-overview Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 17:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

There is tension/conflict inherent in treatment of a vasovagal episode in a medical setting. Once the episode is in progress, there is a tendency to react with an over-abundance of caution, holding the patient completely quiet and "safe" until the episode passes. Unfortunately, this can also greatly extend the duration of the episode, delaying recovery... So, tricks such as the above are potentially relevant. What reliable sources are there for safe low-tech ways of hastening recovery from an episode? In old movies, "smelling salts" were a classic treatment -- seems like that kind of thing deserves a mention in the article. -96.233.20.129 (talk) 13:51, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

 * Since a person in the throws of an episode is extremely lightheaded to the point of unconsciousness (and frequently are unable to think clearly), I strongly suggest that you do NOT require them "to walk it off". As for using the old "smelling salts" (ammonia, these days), what reference do you have for the efficacy of this technique on the vasovagal response besides "old movies"? Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 17:48, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I do not advocate any specific treatments, nor make any efficacy claims -- these are matters I would like to learn about! Movies used to often show people (mostly females) fainting, and being treated with smelling salts. These facts deserve mention in relevant articles. Outside of movies, did people commonly faint? Were smelling salts commonly used? Such facts would also be relevant, if well sourced. If ammonia is a current treatment option, that would be worth mentioning, along with information about efficacy and risks. Similarly, if there are other low-tech ways of hastening recovery from an episode it would be appropriate to mention them, with attendant efficacy and risks. -96.233.20.129 (talk) 22:24, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Readability
My reading comprehension and vocabulary are higher than the norm, but I could barely read this article. Can we tone down the jargon? This isn't a medical textbook. 184.77.68.158 (talk) 05:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

 * I so agree with 184.77.68.158. This article, and most technical/scientific/medical articles on WP that I've read, get top heavy with jargon and minutia on the cellular level. Plain language will increase the article's usability for the casual reader. If readers want to delve deeper, then provide links to jargony terms and/or build up to more complex matter later in the article. Example of a possible change: ". . .is a malaise mediated by the vagus nerve." ---> ". . .is a feeling of unease or dizziness caused by a nerve that originates in the brain, the vagus nerve"? Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 06:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Duration: minutes vs. hours
The article currently says: "The autonomic nervous system's physiologic state (see below) leading to    loss of consciousness may persist for several minutes, so:    If sufferers try to sit or stand when they wake up, they may pass out again    The person may be nauseated, pale, and sweaty for several minutes or hours"

This is confusingly vague, and unsourced. My experience is that an episode of of vasovagal response typically lasts 3-15 minutes, but can persist indefinitely, at least a couple hours. What good sources are there for improving this aspect of the article? -96.233.20.129 (talk) 15:01, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Response to perceived threat
The article itemizes many relevant particular causes that are associated with this reaction, but does not group them in a meaningful way nor mention the underlying commonality. A major cause of this response is a deeply embedded physiological response to a category of perceived (physical) threats.

These are all potential members of this cluster:
 * During or post-biopsy procedures.
 * Stress directly related to trauma
 * Any painful or unpleasant stimuli, such as:
 * Trauma (such as hitting one's funny bone)
 * Watching or experiencing medical procedures (such as Venipuncture or Injection (medicine))
 * Sensitivity to pain
 * In health care, such as nursing care, digital rectal procedures (e.g., digital disimpaction)
 * The sight of blood

The phrase "painful or unpleasant stimuli" is particularly potentially misleading. The flavor is quite different from the concept of a perceived serious "threat". Pain is physical. But this response is triggered not by physical pain per se (within this threat-cluster) but rather by the brain being aware and thinking about ideas (being poked by something sharp, for example). So, a person with this threat-cluster reaction might not react to some severe pain experiences, if they were not perceived as real threats, yet might react to an injection -- even an injection that turned out to be nearly painless -- because the idea of being poked by a needle seems too (life-) threatening. Or again, just hearing people chat about medical procedure horrible experiences could be unbearable, because thinking about such things is too vividly-real-threatening.

The closest the article currently comes to properly wording this aspect is: exposure-based exercises with therapists if the trigger is mental or emotional, e.g. sight of blood. -96.233.20.129 (talk) 16:05, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Other vasovagal condition ???
A friend of mine, who passed away some time ago, had a condition he called "vasovagal" but it does not sound like the symptoms that this article is describing. His symptoms (as I recall) included heart problems (arythmia I think ?), digestive problems (he never really described these in detail but I would say "indigestion" and "heartburn/angina" would be a layman's description), and occasional sudden fatigue requiring him to rest for a while (which of course may be a side effect of the heart issues). There were other issues too like high blood pressure and some specific pains but its been too long and I don't remember the details. I do remember he was not allowed to undergo anasthesia for surgery without extra precautions. But as far as I know he never had anything like fainting (syncope) events.

 * QUESTION 1: Is there a different vasovagal response condition and if so what is that called medically to differentiate from syncope? Could it be this?

I remember he said he had lived with this condition for many decades and had eventually learned that his condition was caused by a botched colonoscopy procedure that damaged ("nicked") the nerve. I know he was tested at a UCLA medical facility some years ago and he had a severe ("near fatal") response to the tilt-table. I also remember he often had to show other doctors his meical report from those tests because many doctors did not believe such a condition existed (apparently it is considered a fantasy illness by some doctors). One doctor went so far as to actually accused him of faking the report but the doctor eventually apologized after calling UCLA and talking with someone there. I was not in the doctor's office when this happened but I remember how mad he was for a couple of days until the doctor called him to say sorry.

 * QUESTION 2: Why are doctors so resistant to whatever this condition is?

Searching the web I see several references about the cause-effect relationships between colonoscopy and vasovagal response. I am not a medical person so I do not understand half the stuff I read. See these just for starters.

 * '''QUESTION 3: Why is there absolutely no mention of colonoscopy in this article if there is a documented correlation between the two?

Just curious but also maybe this stuff needs to be in the article somehow? especially #3. 104.32.193.6 (talk) 12:16, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Review
QJM 10.1093/qjmed/hcw089 JFW | T@lk  15:31, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 30 December 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as proposed, as there are no objections and the reasons given are valid. Brad v  05:17, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Vasovagal response → Vasovagal syncope – Much more usually used name on all searches and ngrams. Pubmed gives 610 results for Vasovagal response and 2,402 for Vasovagal syncope. Also there is a confusing mix of terms on page. Iztwoz (talk) 08:23, 30 December 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Brad  v  15:29, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree "Vasovagal response" is the worst of any proposed titles, but not all episodes are syncopal in nature - some are pre-syncopal or associated with specific symptoms only. Would there be an alternate and better title that includes these but is better than current? --Tom (LT) (talk) 09:14, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Can find no definition of vasovagal response on page - Symptoms describe a syncope.The rest of the page is referring to syncope. Related items as pre-syncopal could be included on page. ? --Iztwoz (talk) 09:32, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Also on the page Syncope (medicine) the section Vasovagal has the main article as Vasovagal syncope.--Iztwoz (talk) 06:31, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Support; the fact that there are pre-syncopal cases can be covered in a section.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  03:46, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Support
Unclear were the ref says

"Food poisoning (e.g. Salmonella, etc) "

Is a cause of reflex syncope? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

 * This ref says "shock and syncope in a patient with uncontrolled diabetes" which means that it is LOC due to low BP that is not transient. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 16:03, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Interpret the diabetic patient's low BP as a contributing factor along with the NTS, resulting in "shock and syncope". Out of curiosity, I would like to know more about what details were observed with that patient's syncope, with regards to any seizure-like shaking to possibly indicate when blood flow/oxygen to the brain had been interrupted 149.101.1.122 (talk) 22:01, 15 November 2017 (UTC) DP

Causes and references/citations - Salmonella, Environmental triggers
Thank you for contributing to Wikipedia. Remember that when adding content about health, please only use high-quality reliable sources as references. We typically use review articles, major textbooks and position statements of national or international organizations (There are several kinds of sources that discuss health: here is how the community classifies them and uses them). WP:MEDHOW walks you through editing step by step. A list of resources to help edit health content can be found here. The edit box has a built-in citation tool to easily format references based on the PMID or ISBN. We also provide style advice about the structure and content of medicine-related encyclopedia articles. The welcome page is another good place to learn about editing the encyclopedia. If you have any questions, please feel free to drop me a note. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:32, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

 * Hello, note that any other items (besides the Vasovagal/Reflex Syncope item that you created) on this IP@ talk page are not of my doing. I do not vandalize pages, just fyi. You didn't accuse me of this, I know, but had to state that.

 * I will review the guidelines on references/citations. I did use the citation tool, however.

 * So one of the 'food poisoning' references was sourced from the same 'high-quality' source as another reference (for the TMS cause) in the wiki article. This source refers to NTS, where salmonella caused severe hemorrhagic cystitis, leading a patient (with other complications, in this case) to 'syncope'.

 * The other 'food poisoning' source cited salmonella ingestion correlated with an extreme drop in blood pressure. Although, it does not correlate this further with a vasovagal interruption episode, although that is mentioned later in the reference (as a drop in blood pressure is an underlying symptom). ["Low blood pressure and dizziness (MPKB)". Marshall Protocol Knowledge Base. Autoimmunity Research Foundation. Retrieved 13 November 2017.]

 * References on the correlation to salmonella are not easily found, and I am not a graduate student who may have more time to find them. The cause listed as 'Environmental triggers: light (television or strobe, as well), atmospheric or other such similarities to past syncope episodes' is something I have not seen referenced before. However, psychological and physiological triggers are known to contribute to causation and/or enhance symptoms, and I am very certain they played a role in my own experiences.

 * Personally, I have had FIVE episodes. Each time leading to a greater understanding of the reasons, indications and circumstances of my own syncope. Not all triggers/causes are relevant to everyone who has experienced this, as we know. Each episode, I can recall the details quite well (and my detection of onset improved each time, as experience goes). In EVERY one of my syncope episodes the common denominator has been the ingestion of chicken tainted with salmonella and time period of 8-9 hours. This created the physiological conditions that provide the window of opportunity where the resulting syncope can occur (combined with environmental factors, perhaps genetics and/or my own development). Two episodes were in an environment very similar to the first episode, the other three had just some environmental similarities. I feel it is very important to note this in the article, especially for those who may be able to further research and/or try to understand their own syncope's. I would not list anything that wasn't relevant or try to sway loose causation for personal/egotistical reasons. I would appreciate your help with my contribution to the article and feel we need to address this in the article. Thank you.
 * [NOTE: this was posted on Doc James talk page, but I figure it should be discussed by others as well)
 * 149.101.1.122 (talk) 19:59, 15 November 2017 (UTC) DP
 * What we need is a high quality ref that actually supports the content in question. Please read WP:MEDRS Best Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 15:36, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

"brief periods of unconsciousness do no harm"
This is not generally true. Apart from possible injuries due to falls, it depends on the frequency of the syncopes if they do harm or not. If someone keeps fainting very often (e.g. multiple times per hour) for a long time, this is for sure not harmless and may result in chronic brain damage, among other problems. If however the fainting attacks are infrequent (like once in a week) they may be innocuous apart from causing falls. --79.240.195.252 (talk) 15:25, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Welcome to Wikipedia. They way we work is that we base stuff on high quality references per WP:MEDRS. You will need to provide a reference. Best Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 00:33, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * If you look for sources about potential complications of transient drops in blood pressure, see the chapter "prognosis" in our article about orthostatic hypotension, for example. This is not the same as reflex syncope, but severe reflex syncope may mimic it by way of frequent episodes of fainting under minimal stress. However this should be rare, and orthostatic hypotension is usually a more severe condition and more likely to cause damage. I think it's about the statement that syncopes are generally always harmless - this is normally the case in reflex syncope, but a reader may over-generalize this statement in a wrong way. In some conditions they are not, especially if they are due to heart disease. --130.83.182.70 (talk) 11:21, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Useful and in good shape
I commend this article as of 2019: many up-to-date sources are included now. Zezen (talk) 05:31, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Reflex syncope