text:
Talk:Theories of Pashtun origin

Cut from article
I cut the following uncited and (to my mind) mildly anti-semitic remark from the article. If someone has a citation on some reputable scholar claiming this as evidence, I will reluctantly agree to its inclusion.

 * Another piece of evidence that link Pathans to a source of possible Israelite ancestry is that Pathans are also very-well known for their usury on the Indian subcontinent, like Jews were in Europe. "Pathan moneylenders," despite Islam's disapproval of riba, exist in various Indian cities.

-- Jmabel | Talk 04:28, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * That's interesting info. I think you should just modify it. For example: Another piece of evidence that points to a possible Israelite ancestry is the fact that "Pathan moneylenders," despite Islam's disapproval of riba, exist in various Indian cities. SamEV 12:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

cleanup tag rationale
The article needs to be split up into sections, and ordered more betterly [sic]... also, some things need to be wikilinked that aren't and some things that are needn't be. Even the name of the article needs some serious reconsideration (who, seriously, is going to search for an article with such a name?)... I could go on and on, regarding why I slapped the cleanup tag on there, but any even mildly-experienced editor can see almost immediately what the glaring problems are with this article's non-conformance to WP style... I'd have put in the work to clean it up myself (and may end up doing so yet), but right now I don't have time to. I just didn't want it to slip through the cracks... Tom e r TALK 06:50, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Mostly agree. I think the name is fine, many articles don't have very searchable names. People find them via links and categories. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Mostly agree...although as for how people searching for articles find them, it's not through categories (as useful as they are for experienced wikipedians, the majority of occasional users, from my own discussions with a number of them, aren't even aware of the categorization scheme...this is an oversight of editors more familiar with WP. I would instead encourage the creation of appropriate redirects, by which people actually searching for information will be more readily able to find articles with such ridiculously long titles.  Tom e rTALK 07:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Reason for Controversial template
The idea that the Pasthuns are decendants of the Isrealis is a very radical and controverisal thesis! The very existence of the Lost Tribes of Israel is quite controversial in itself! The article only mentions the other POV in the first paragraph. Karmak

Reason for POV Check
Everything except for the first two paragraphs of this are article is NPOV information supporting the radical claim that the Pashtuns are decendants of Isrealis. The POV that the Pashtuns are not Isrealis is only mentioned in the first paragraph!

This page has not been edited recently, so I requested a check. Karmak

 * Do remember: this is an article about the theory, not an endorsement of it. As far as I can tell, what is here is well cited; I haven't reviewed it lately, but I seem to remember opinions in the article being properly attributed. Citable criticism of the theory would be entirely appropriate additions. I agree that that the theory seems unlikely, but it is certainly worth recording that many Pashtuns believe it (and many early anthropologists thought they were right). My main concern is to keep this over here in a separate article, so that the article Pashtun is not overwhelmed by what strikes me as little more than a legend. - Jmabel | Talk 02:53, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I think this article is very poorly cited. It is full of broken links, and I would expect a much long bibliography for such a controversial claim as this.

 * All articles about anything, theory or not, must conform to wikipedia's policy of having a neutral point of view. This article should spend just as much or more time explaining why this theory could be wrong as it does explaining why this theory could be correct.  The rhetorical style is also quite POV.  Wikipedia is not a place for people to write opinion articles!Karmak

Reason for total dispute
I changed the first two paragraphs to make them NPOV but I don't even know if this article should be here because this has already be addresed enough in the Pashtun article!

This theory is pure myth and all the stuff in this article about how this theory is correct is completely POV and factually inaccurate!

This theory is also based on the The Lost Tribes of Isreal theory which is a very controversial theory in itself! Karmak

Deletion
The article is a bit of a mess to be sure, but deletion is probably not the right way to go. This describes a theory, just like flat earth. Consider adding a bit more of the opposing view instead. If you still disagree, and what to have this article delete, you can put it up on WP:AFD. 192.75.48.150 16:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

 * This view and the opposing view are both in the Pashtun article already.

 * This theory is very different from the flat earth theory, because many people have heard of the flat earth theory! Have you ever heard of this theory before?  I didn't think so!  This page is one long POV arguement for a fringe theory.

 * According to Wikipedia policy, it is okay to put information about a fringe theory as long as there isn't a disproportional amount of space dedicated to it, compared with theories that are more accepted.

 * This is a theory about the origin of the Pashtuns. The only place I know of in wikipedia that talks about theories of Pashtun origin is the Pashtun article.  But this article is longer than the entire section on the origin of the Pashtuns in the Pashtun article.  This theory is covered in that section, along with other theories, and the article does a good job.  This page gives too much space to a mostly unknown and totally false theory, and it is completly POV!
 * Karmak

 * In fact, yes, I had heard of this before. The article discusses the oral traditions of a large ethnic group. I don't see why it should not have its own article. If the article is biased right now, this is something that can be fixed. (Your latest edit seems to have made it even less balanced) 72.137.20.109 16:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

 * wow, this article is a total mess and a nightmare to find sources for. most of the theory is in the mind of the various scholars like Elyahu Avichail, it would be a nightmare trying to source everything, it doesnt mean its a flat earth theory though. will try and make a start soon. FrummerThanThou 21:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

This article doesn't need to be deleted. It represents a valid historical theory, it just needs extensive checking of spelling and grammar errors. This article needs major clean up. Manic Hispanic 05:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

 * This article does NOT represent a valid historical theory, the valid historical theories are the academic theories which all assign Iranic origins to Pashtuns because Pashto is an Iranic language. This "theory" is just a myth, having myths about ones own origins is not uncommon amongst ethnicities but they are not theories as theories have to be well corroborated, which this is not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scythian Saka (talk • contribs) 23:24, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

More links
Maybe some information from these articles could be added to this article?

 * Is One of the Lost Tribes the Taliban?

 * Taliban may have origin in ancient tribe of Israel: Anthropologist finds many similarities

--172.163.44.227 15:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Alerts added
This article does not seem to be entirely balanced. In addition, why is the one link here claiming to refute the theory a dead one. The endnotes and referenced are not balanced, and the body of the article is missing inline cites. Please help improve the content.--Jhelyam (talk) 22:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Newly added introduction
1) I see that there is a new introduction to this article. The introduction seems aimed at disputing the theory.  A proper introduction should be an explanation of the theory, while the debate supporting or refuting the theory should be included later on.  2) The new introduction states that the theory of Pashtun descent from the Ten Lost Tribes is from the 19th century. This statement contradicts the citations later in the article which cite historical texts dating back hundreds of years before the 19th century. 3) The introduction dicounts the theory by saying that Pashtuns want to gain status by claiming Semetic origin. First, there is no proof of this assertion.  Second, it doesn't make sense, since in a Moslem country, claiming descent from Jews would actually reduce a person's social status.  This is actually a reason to give credence to the theory, since Moslems have every reason to deny connections with Jews.  If they claim a connection despite that, then there is good reason to take the claim seriously. 4) The introduction seems to assert that some Moslems support this theory. Perhaps this was true decades ago, but today, perhaps because of political reasons there doesn't seem to be a single Moslem who is willing to publically accept this theory (with the exception of the Indian scholar quoted at the end of the article). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shalliah (talk • contribs) 08:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

This new introduction should be deleted. -Shalliah --Shalliah (talk) 20:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Note
A HUMBLE REQUEST

Do not edit if you cannot provide a factual reference. Every edit must be backed up by a scholarly reference. Do not vandalizes, do not add personal references. Learn to respect and appreciate differences of opinion without personal prejudice. This after all is the sharing of collective human knowledge and bringing it to the world.

Msrafiq (talk) 10:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Just found this article
Hello. User:Dougweller asked me to look at the genetics section of this article and I think it is quite speculative and needs some reduction down to solid facts. I have made some edits already, but perhaps I should stop for a while. In the meantime, please do look at the data of the Firasat article which this article cites. It shows R1a as being more common amongst Pathans than any of the other Y haplogroups described in this article as being most common. Whoever has been writing this material is apparently interested in haplogroup G, but this haplogroup is not so common amongst Jews, and has a distribution which is quite difficult to describe in any simple way. It is scattered all over Europe, and appear to have been very common amongst the first wave of Neolithic farmers there. It is also common in the Caucasus.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Genetic section is full of nonsense
The person who wrote this clearly doesnt know the basics of DNA testing and has made contradictory claims, firstly look at a Y DNA study that is cited here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/figure/F1/

According to this study, a study this author cites, the J haplogroup (Semitic marker) was found in around 5% of the Pashtun sample and the most common haplogroup was the r1a1 (found at 44.8%) which incidently happened to be a haplogroup found in a Scythian remain yet the author here claims Scythian DNA is not found in Pashtuns, what the hell?

Furthermore, Mitochondrial DNA is completelely irrelevant to Pashtuns because Pashtuns are a Patriarchal people; in Pashtunwali you are only Pashtun if your father is Pashtun, I know because Im Pashtun myself and this is the rule. Mitochondrial DNA is DNA passed on from mothers, in Pashtunwali the mothers ethnicity is irrelevant and only the fathers Pashtun identity determines the childs therefore it only makes sense to talk about Y DNA when talking about Pashtun ancestry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scythian Saka (talk • contribs) 23:03, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Brother what is your opinion regarding adopted tribe. we have a lot of adopted tribes among Pashtun ,who got adopted as their mothers were married to non Pashtuns and girls father accepted them as Son. today they are Pashtun. Zarrigul (talk) 15:22, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Deletion
It is a well known and established fact that Pashto -the language of Pashtuns- is an Eastern Iranic (Indo-European) language that is similar to other Iranic languages like Avestan, Bactrian, Ossetic and Pamiri. Pashto in fact, aside from its many Iranic roots and morphemes, has roots that are peculiar to itself and certainly not Semitic either and its morphological and syntactic features are largely Iranic. It is a fact that Pashto has little to no similarity with Hebrew or any other Semitic language and this theory fails to explicate this fatal discrepancy. If Pashtuns as a people were THE lost tribe then surely their language was originally Semitic and they should've preserved some of it but there is no Semitic in Pashto except a borrowed script from Arabic and some borrowed religious terms from Arabic.

Yes one could argue that perhaps the lost tribes became assimilated by Pashtuns and essentially became Pashtuns but to claim that Pashtuns as a people were originally THE lost tribe is about as credible as flat earth theory. Furthermore, the genetic testing of Pashtun haplogroups strongly impresses doubts on this theory, refer to my other discussion "Genetic section is full of nonsense". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scythian Saka (talk • contribs) 23:11, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

 * First — Arguing the case based on the language they speak is a bad argument. Languages are adopted within a couple generations of a language being imposed on a group of people. The argument you make here is like arguing second generation California Mexicans are not hispanic because they speak perfect English (which, you should know, is a ridiculous argument).
 * Second — Just because a case can be made that a topic of an article is without any factual support (or even if it is known to be completely made up) that is not the basis for which an article would be deleted from Wikipedia. In Wikipedia, if the topic is of sufficient notability, then it can be included in WP. I'm not saying that this article is an example of a topic with no factual support, nor am I saying that it is completely made up, just stating that even if it was, it wouldn't be deleted because of it. — al-Shimoni  (talk) 22:54, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree, this whole article is a waste of time and filled with complete nonsense. I was actually dissapointed with wikiepda that an article of such calibre with so many POV and filled with unsourced statements even exists and has gone unchekced by moderators. The Pashtuns like you said are not semitic, they clearly of eastern iranian lienage and this is proven as well thanks to modern science. Akmal94 (talk) 19:35, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

False Reference ? No 1
Hi  Joshua Issac in your edit of 28 December 2010 you provided the following reference to the line : '''Numerous ancient texts, such as the Rig Veda, composed before 1200 BCE, which mentions the "Paktha" as an enemy group[1] The reference provided is ''' Some aspects of ancient Indian culture By Devadatta Ramakrishna Bhandarkar Page 2 I have provided a link to this book and page mentioned in the citation in the article currently

But I cannot see the page saying anywhere that Numerous ancient texts, such as the Rig Veda, composed before 1200 BCE, which mentions the "Paktha" as an enemy group

Have I missed it or, is this a patently bogus quote and reference ?

Would appreciate your response. Intothefire (talk) 18:32, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

 * Hello, Intothefire. Thank you for leaving a notice on my page about this discussion. I found an identical claim to the one in question in another article, Pakthas, apparently supported by D.R. Bhandarkar's book, Some aspects of ancient Indian culture. I should have tried to verify that the source supported the claim, but instead, I assumed it did, and added it to this article. Thank you for attempting to verify this. The reference should be removed. On searching for an alternative source, I was able to partial support for the claim in Chapter 8 of The Rigveda: A Historical Analysis, which could probably replace references to Some aspects of Indian culture in this article and in Pakthas. --Joshua Issac (talk) 19:39, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

 * On second thought, The Rigveda: A Historical Analysis appears to be a controversial book. There is probably a better source. Maybe this? --Joshua Issac (talk) 19:48, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

 * Hi Joshua Issac
 * I note that you say you have provided a false reference by mistake . What that means is that a false quote was supported by a false citation .....by mistake .
 * When I went through the other references you provided ,
 * I could not identify content to specifically support the contention that the Pakthas were not a Rigvedic tribe ,
 * or that they were generic enemies of the Rig Vedic tribes
 * specially since there is ample scholastic evidence from reliable secondary sources to determine that the Pakthas were a rigvedic tribe.
 * If you have such a source to support this specific contention then please provide it.

Intothefire (talk) 06:41, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Reference No 4 ?
Hi Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan In the section Origin accounts in other sources

You have added a quote and reference

It states:''Rajmohan Gandhi, while describing Bacha Khan when they towards the end of Bacha Khan's life says: ''We found Abdul Ghaffar Khan lying on a rumpled bed. Tall and gaunt, he looked like a sick Jeremiah outside the gates of a King of Israel. and the reference you provide is from Rajmohan Gndhis book, Ghaffar Khan, nonviolent badshah of the Pakhtuns, Rajmohan Gandhi, Penguin Viking, 2004 - On the life and achievements of Abdul Ghaffar Khan, 1890-1988, Indian nationalist and active politician in Pakistan after 1947 - 300 pages - Page 10

Badshah khan was a Colossus no doubt, and Rajmohan Gandhi may have made this comment /compliment , but I fail to see how a comment by Rajmohan Gandhi provides an  historical testimony to Origin account in other sources ?

Would appreciate your resoinse Intothefire (talk) 11:36, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

 * He hasn't edited since July 22nd. The misrepresentation I mention below was his edit. I've found quite a few problems with his references in the past. I note that a lot of stuff he added about genetics was removed by an editor who knows quite a bit about genetics, with edit summaries explaining why his material was removed such as "the publications cited do not themselves come to this conclusion so we Wikipedians should not report our WP:synthesis" - which is my point below. I think all his edits need reviewing. Dougweller (talk) 12:31, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

 * Hi Dougweller
 * Yes there several quotes and citations in this article that seem deceptive.
 * Intothefire (talk) 16:55, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

And Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan used them in other articles. I@ll probably remove them all, if any are worthwhile they can be restored selectively. And not only is there original research, there's pov wording (see WP:NPOV. Dougweller (talk) 17:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Original research
See WP:NOR. Too much of this article is trying to make an argument for the 'theory' (really a hypothesis, not a theory). That's inappropriate. Sources need to specifically mention Pashtuns and Israelites, and indeed if we don't change the lead (and I think this is about 'Lost tribes', they have to mention Lost Tribes. That's the way we work, that's basic policy. I've deleted some stuff for this reason and will probably delete more. It's also obvious some sources have been misrepresented. Dougweller (talk) 12:17, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

The genealogical section is full of nonsense
The genealogical section of this article is total self made up, and when i tried to put in the right info somebody removed it.

Pashtuns, in Afghanistan and Pakistan in general and Afridis in particular as being descendants of the lost Israelite tribe of Ephraim. Shahnaz Ali, at the National Institute of Immunohaematology studied the blood samples collected from Afridi, Khattak and Yusufzai Pathans to check their putative Israelite origin and the result came positive. It was found that 650 out of the 1,500 members had dna similar to genetic dna found in Jews. That's less than half of the members were connected to Jews. The Ydna haplogroup G2C has been found in 7% of Ashkenazi Jews and in the Pashtuns. The research shows a relationship between Afghan (Pashtun) and Jewish (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi) DNA and also that Afghan DNA is 2nd closest (68.1) to Ashkenazi DNA after Irani and Iraq Jews (67.9). Rare genetic disease shows a common origin. Inclusion body myopathy has been found among Afghans (Pashtuns), Iranian Jews and Ashkenazis. This indicates a common founder mutation. This is a disease in which muscular weakness is a rare genetic disorder which is localized to Jewish populations. Most known patients are Iranian Jews, with a few originating from Pashtuns of Afghanistan. The high frequency is due to a founder mutation (GNE, M712T) from Nature Genet 29:83-87, 2001. Another genetic disease common to both Pashtuns and Jews is the disease Glucose 6 Phosphate Dehydrogenase deficiency. "G6PDH is common to Jews from Kurdistan, Iraq, Iran, Yemen and in Afghans/Pashtuns." Scientists can draw inferences about Afghan DNA in general from this. (Pashtunyar (talk) 12:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC))

 * A number of medieval Persian texts written by Muslim scholars refer to the Israelite origin of Afridi Pashtuns/Pathans[1], who mainly inhabit the hill country from the eastern spurs of the Safed Koh to the borders of the Peshawar district in Pakistan. They occupy about one thousand square miles of the hill country south and west of Peshawar, believed to be the area where Osama bin Laden has found asylum.

A sprinkling of them are also spread out in certain parts of India like Malihabad (District Lucknow) and Qayamganj (District Farukhabad) in Uttar Pradesh, where they settled in the mid-eighteenth century. Afridi, whose population was estimated to be 275,000 in 1962, is one of the most prominent tribes of the warlike Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans, whose total population was estimated to be 20 million in 1986.[2] Sadly Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans are the same people who largely fill the ranks of the Taliban today. The ethnic and etymological origin of the name Afridi is obscure. But there are those who connect it with the Persian afridan, which means ‘newly arrived’, indicating that they were immigrants in the land from where they originally got this name.[3] Some find its origin in the name of Afrata, a great intellectual and wife of Hisron (eighth in descent from the Biblical character David).[4] The derivation of the name Afridi in the Hayat-i-Afghani of Muhammad Hayat Khan fromafrida (a creature of God) is evidently a modern fabrication.[5] According to the legend, in ancient times a Governor of the provinceof Peshawar summoned certain members of the Afridi tribe to his court. With native pride, one such Afridi, took his seat at the entrance to the royal court, and as the Governor paused to ask him who he was, he exclaimed Zah sok yam? (Who am I?); and replied with solid indifference, Zah hum Afrida yam… (I am also a creature of God).Afrida means a created being in Persian (Farsi). From then on, the tribe were known by the name Afridi.[6] One of the oldest manuscripts in the world is Abu Suleman Daud bin Abul Fazal Muhammad Albenaketi’s Rauzat uo Albab fi Tawarikh-ul-Akabir wal Ansab (The Garden of the Learned in the History of Great Men and Genealogies) written in AH 717, in which the author traces the ancestry of the Afghans to the Israelites.[7] An outline of the main tribal traditions of the Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans have been chronicled by Abul Fazl (1551-1602 CE) in Akbarnama. Slightly different versions are given in Sulayman Maku’s Tadhkirat al Awliya (allegedly of the thirteenth century CE), and in the Khazama.[8] A number of Pathan/Pashtun/Afghan historians subscribe to the theory of the Israelite origin of the Pathans/Pathans/Afghans. The first among them to trace the genealogy of the Pathans/Pashtuns/Afghans to Israel (an alternative name of the Biblical character Jacob) in a methodical manner was Khwaja Neamatullah. During a discussion at the Mughal emperor Jahangir’s court about the origins of the Afghans, the Persian ambassador amused the monarch by presenting the following account to support the contention that the Pashtuns/Pathans were descended from devils: Books of authority recounted that King Zuhak, hearing of a race of beautiful women that lived in far off western countries, sent an army thither, which was defeated by the beautiful women, but afterwards, a stronger expedition being sent under Nariman, they were reduced to sue for peace and gave in tribute a thousand virgins. When, on its return march, the army was one night encamped close to a wild mountainous country, there suddenly came down upon it a phantom, smote and scattered the troops in all directions, and then, in that one night, ravished all the thousand virgins. In due course of time all became pregnant, and when Zuhak learnt this, he gave orders that the women should be kept in the remote deserts and plains lest the unnatural offspring should breed strife and tumult in the cities. This offspring was the race of the Afghans.[9] Annoyed at the disgraceful account of the origin of Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans, an Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan courtier, Malik Ahmad, entitled Khan Jahan Lodi, asked his secretary Khwaja Neamatullah Harawi to compile a complete account of the history of Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans. Neamatullah sent five historians, viz., Qutb Khan, Sarmast Khan Abdali, Hamza Khan, Umar Khan Kakarr and Zarif Khan, to the Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan territories in AH 1030/1621 CE to investigate the descent of Afghans. This eventually led to the compilation of Mirat-al-Afghani, according to which Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans are Israelites. According to Mirat-al-Afghani, after their expulsion from their native land of Israel by Bakhtnasr (Nebuchadnezzar), they took refuge in Kohistan-e-Ghor and Koh-e-Firozah, and were later converted to Islam by Khalid-ibn-al-Waleed, who was of the same racial stock as the Afghans. He is said to have invited his fellow Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans to Arabia to embrace Islam. Led by Qais/Kais, the Afghans reached Arabia and after prolonged deliberations ultimately accepted Islam. Kais/Qais married Khalid’s daughter Sara, and fathered three sons from her – Sarban, Ghorghusht and Baitan. Numerous accounts forwarded by Afghan historians tend to favour this theory. Hafiz Rahmat Khan has presented genealogies showing descent from Talut – a prominent figure in the annals of Bani Israil (Children of Israel) in his Khulasat ul-Ansab.[10] Neamatullah has given detailed genealogical accounts of several Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan tribes, tracing their descent from Qais Abdul Rasheed, who himself is said to have sprung from the line of Jacob (Israel) in his Tarikh-i-Khan-i-Jahani wa Makhzan-i-Afghani (AH 1021/ 1612 CE).[11] Completed at Burhanpur, it gives an account of the Afghans, particularly the Lodis and the Surs.[12] Naematullah writes: …Khaled sent a letter to the Afghans who had settled in the mountainous countries around Ghor ever since the time of the expulsion of the Israelites by Bokhtnasser, and informed them of the appearance of the last of the Prophets. When this letter reached them, several of their chiefs departed fromMedina; the mightiest of them, and of the Afghan people, was Kais, whose pedigree ascends in a series of thirty-seven degrees to Talut, of forty-five to Ibrahim…[13] Naematullah was the first historian to present a systematic genealogical table of Pathans/Pashtuns/Afghans from Israel/Jacob. However he can’t be given credit for propounding the theory of their Israelite origin. Less than ten years before the compilation ofTarikh-e-Khan-e-Jahani, another scholar Akhund Darwiza had declared the Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans to be Israelites in hisTadhkirat al-Abrar (an account of his adventures in Afghan territories) in 1611 CE.[14] Even before the political rise of Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans, Hamidullah Mustawfi had speculated that they were most likely Israelites in his monumental work Tarikh-e-Guzeedah (AH 730/1326 CE), as stated by Neamatullah.[15] This is a general historical account dedicated to Khwaja Ghiyasuddin Muhammad, son and successor of Rashiduddin Fazlullah, and deals with the Mongols of Persia (modern Iran) and modern Trans-Oxiana. [16] Sheikh Mali of the Yusufzai tribe wrote in Pushto a book on the Israelite descent of the Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans between AH 816/1409 CE and AH 828/1412 CE. Another work in Pushto on the same subject is ascribed to Khan Kaju, written in circa AH 900/1493 CE.[17] Upon these two works were based Tarikh-e-Hafiz Rahmat and Khulasat al-Ansab of Hafiz Rahmat Khan. Minhaj-i-Siraj Jurjari, who had close contact with the Ghurids and held posts of qazi (qadi),khatib, sadr-i-jahan and principal of the Nasiriya Madrassa, wrote in his Tabaqat-i-Nasiri (1259-60 CE), “In the time of the Shansbani dynasty there were people called Bani Israel living in Ghor,” and that“some of them were extensively engaged in trade with the neighbouring countries.”[18] Tabaqat-i-Nasiri is an encyclopaedic history from the patriarchs and prophets, viz., Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to the time of Nasiruddin Mahmud. It is an invaluable source of information for the history of the early Turkish sultans and theirmaliks and amirs.[19] Abu Sulayman Daud’s Rauza-ul-Bab Twarikh-ul-Akbar-wal-Ansab (The Garden of the Learned in the History of Great Men and Genealogies) (AH 717/1310 CE) is considered the earliest work on the subject of the Israelite origin of Afridi Pashtuns/Pathans. It is a history of the Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan nation since the time of Moses.[20] Genealogies of the Pashtun/Pathan/Afghan tribes, right up to King Saul, are given in the second chapter of the book, while Mustawfi’sMajma-ul-Ansab gives a detailed genealogy of Qais (Kish), the tribal head of the Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans in a series of thirty-seven generations to King Saul and forty-five generations to Abraham.[21] We find a detailed account of the journey of Afghans from Israel toAfghanistan in Bukhtawar Khan’s Mirat-ul-Alam, according to which Afghans are descendants of Israel (Jabob/Yacov/Yaqub) through King Saul.[22] It is worth mentioning the names of Syed Jalal-ud-Din Afghani and Syed Abdul Jabar Shah, the ex-ruler of Swat (NWFP, Pakistan), who have given genealogies of different Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan tribes right up to King Saul and conclude that the Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans represent the Lost Tribes of Israel.[23] Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, founder of the Ahmadia Movement of Islam, draws upon Tabaqat-e-Nasri in his book Jesus in India (1899), where it is mentioned that during the Shabnisi rule there lived a tribe called Bani Israel, some members of which were good traders.[24] He further records that in 622 CE during the prophet Muhammad’s lifetime, his military chief Khalid ibn-al-Waleed converted about half a dozen chiefs of the Jewish tribes to Islam. Qais or Kish was their leader. As neo-Muslim zealots, they fought bravely a number of battles for spreading Islam. As an expression of his appreciation, Muhammad showered gifts upon them and predicted that they would attain even greater victories. He decreed that the chief of the tribe would always be known as Malik and conferred the title of Patan upon Qais (Kish). Patan is a Syriac word meaning rudder. Since the newly converted Qais was a guide to his people, like the rudder of a ship, he was awarded this title.[25] And since then, his descendants have been called Pathan. Another theory is that whenever people asked the Pathans/Pashtuns/Afghans about their nationality, they replied in Hebrew phasq or phasht. Phasq means “to liberate”, “to make free”, “to split”, while phasht means “to spread”. The word Pashtun seems to have been derived from this very word.[26] In Hebrew, Pasht is the name of a deity and also of a city in Egypt. In the Pashto language Pastu means an inner room with just one entrance, which indicates that they might have migrated from Israel to their present mountainous country and called themselves Pusht after a village inIsrael.[27] Some believe that Pathans got their name from Jonathan’s great-grandson Pithon. Some Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans believe that they descended from Bibi Qatoora, wife of Hazrat Ibrahim (Abraham). According to them, after the death of Bibi Sara, Ibrahim married Bibi Qatoora, from whom he had six sons. After distributing all his possessions among his sons, Ibrahim sent them towards the East. They settled down in Turan in the north-west of Iran, where they were soon joined by their brethren exiled by King Talut. All of them established themselves in Pasht. Pasht is identified with Parthia, which later came to be known as Tabaristan. Their settling down in Pasht earned them the name Pashtin followed by Pashtun, and Pashtaneh.[28] According to Pashtun/Pathan/Afghan genealogies, Kish married the daughter of Khalid ibn al-Waleed, from whom he had three sons – Sarban, Bitan and Ghurgasht, Sarban in turn had two sons – Sacharj Yun and Karsh. As per the tradition, the descendants of Yun are Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans.[29] It is noteworthy that the people of Asia Minor and Muslim historians call the Afghans/Pathans “Sulaimanis”, after King Sulaiman (Solomon).[30] There is a tribal tradition that the Pashtuns originated in Israel in the days of King Saul, from whom they claim descent through a son, Irmia (Jeremiah), and a grandson, Afghana, from whom the nameAfghanistan is derived, with its inhabitants called Afghans. Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans maintain that they grew great in Israel, where they were favourites of Daud (David) and Sulaiman (Solomon); and where the latter assigned them to guard the temple from the assaults of jealous demons. To aid them in this task, Sulaiman (Solomon), master of djins and afreets, taught the Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans the language of hell. At this time there appeared a wicked magician, Bukht-ud-Nasir (Nebuchadnezzar), who scattered the tribes of Israel and sent the Afghans, as the most obstreperous, far to the east, to the land of Sham or Syria. From there they migrated to the mountains of Ghor in western Afghanistan, and settled down, adhering to monotheism, although surrounded by countless idolaters and polytheists. As the legend goes, in the time of Muhammad, an Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan, Qais or Kish, visited Meccaand embraced Islam, receiving the name Abdul Rasheed. He returned to Afghanistan to convert his people, and all the Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans are the progeny of his two sons, Sarban and Ghurghusht, and daughter Bibi Matto.[31] Fareed-ud-Din Ahmad tries to prove the Israelite descent of Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans from King Talut in his Risal-i-Ansab-i-Afghana. The Pashtuns or Pathans are the world’s only claimants of Israelite descent whose claim is backed by so many medieval references, spanning hundreds of years. [1] Pathans, Pashtuns, Pakhtuns and Afghans are names which are often used interchangeably. There is nothing wrong in this usage, but each name has its own meaning. Those who inhabit plains and plateaus are entitled to the name Afghan, which has a far wider connotation than just being a subject of the modern state ofAfghanistan, founded only in 1747. The northern highlanders call themselves Pakhtuns, while the southern highlanders are known as Pashtuns. The appellation Pathan is the Indian variant of Pakhtanah, the plural of Pakhtun. [2] Harrison, “Ethnicity and Political Stalemate in Pakistan”, in Ali Banuazzi and Myron Weiner, Religion and Ethnic Politics: Afghanistan, Iran and Afghanistan, Syracuse University Press, Syracuse, 1986, p. 286 [3] Oral Tradition [4] Aatif, Khan Mohammad, “Sabhyata aur Sanskriti ke Aaine mein Malihabad”, in Naya Daur, Awadh Number, Public Information Department, Uttar Pradesh, u.d., p. 145 [Hindi] [5] Islam, Zaiton, “Afridi”, in N. K. Singh and A. M. Khan, eds.,Encyclopaedia of the World Muslims, Global Vision Publishing House, Delhi, p. 24 [6] www.khyber.org/pashtotribes/afridi/afridi.html [7] Ahmad, M. M., “The Lost Tribes of Israel”, in The Muslim Sunrise, Summer 1991 (Accessed on the Internet) [8] Islam, op.cit., p. 20 [9] Kakakhel, Sayed Wiqar Ali Shah, “Origin of the Afghans”, in Dr. Fazal-ur-Rahman Marwat & Sayed Wiqar Ali Shah Kakakhel, eds.,Afghanistan and the Frontier, Emjay Books International, Peshawar-Pakistan, 1993, pp. 149-151 [10] Ibid., pp. 150-151 [11] Immamuddin, S. M., “The Afghans: Etymological Analysis”, in Muhammad Tahir, ed., Encyclopaedic Survey of Islamic Culture, Vol. 16, Anmol Publications Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi, 1998, p. 205 [12] Habib, Mohammad and Khaliq Ahmad Nizami, eds., A Comprehensive History of India, Vol. Five, Part One: The Delhi Sultnat, Second Edition, The Indian History Congress, Peoples Publishing House, New Delhi, October 1992, p. xxi [13] Makhzan-i-Afghani (History of the Afghans) of Naematullah (1612 CE), trans. By Bernhard Dorn, Part I, Oriental Translation Committee,London, 1829, p. 37 [14] Imamuddin, op. cit., p. 206 [15] Imamuddin, op. cit., p. 205 [16] Habib, Mohammad and Khaliq Ahmad Nizami, eds., op. cit., p. xxi [17] Imamuddin, op. cit., p. 205 [18] Imamudin, op. cit., p. 200 [19] Habib, Mohammad and Khaliq Ahmad Nizami, eds., op. cit., p. xx [20] Benjamin, Joshua M., The Mystery of Israel’s Ten Lost Tribes and the Legend of Jesus in India, 2nd edition, Mosaic Books, New Delhi, p. 16 [21] Ibid. [22] Ibid., pp. 16-17 [23] Ibid., p. 17 [24] Ibid. p. 18 [25] Ibid., pp. 15-16 [26] Imamuddin, op. cit., pp. 206-207 [27] Ibid., p. 207 [28] Kakakhel, op. cit., p. 153 [29] Benjamin, op. cit., p. 16 [30] Ibid. [31] Singh, Nagendra K., ed., International Encyclopaedia of Islamic Dynasties, Vol. I, Anmol Publications Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi, 2000, p. 35 (Pashtunyar (talk) 12:19, 3 December 2012 (UTC))

 * Yes, thank you for such a long and detailed edit, what are you trying to say here? can you please summarize your input.... Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan (talk) 15:20, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

It's a "Genetics" section, not a "genealogical" section
The passage you deleted from the article is up-to-date genetics research by an international team of scientists published by a peer-reviewed journal. It is not nonsense. I suggest you verify the link, Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events

The Abstract includes the following passage: "In this study we have analyzed, for the first time, the four major ethnic groups in present-day Afghanistan: Hazara, Pashtun, Tajik, and Uzbek, using 52 binary markers and 19 short tandem repeats on the non-recombinant segment of the Y-chromosome. A total of 204 Afghan samples were investigated along with more than 8,500 samples from surrounding populations important to Afghanistan's history through migrations and conquests, including Iranians, Greeks, Indians, Middle Easterners, East Europeans, and East Asians."

You cite one somewhat dated source for genetics evidence that does not appear to support the claims you are making, let alone set them forth itself.

None of the other information you describe relates to genetics, and much of it seems to be from sources of questionable reliability.--Ubikwit (talk) 15:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

 * Mind you, you are referring to the edits of Pushtunyar whereas I am a different user. There is a small similarity in names but the edit was done by a different user. !!! Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan (talk) 16:48, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

 * I understand that. Maybe he is a collaborator of yours?
 * At any rate, I see from your User page that you are an advocate of this theory, and it is clear that you are attempting to promote your personal point of view on this article by loading it with unreliable sources in a contextually irrelevant manner.
 * Other contributors have noted the questionable nature of some of your references in the past, yet you continue to edit in the same manner, apparently.
 * Please refrain from further unwarranted editing. If you have reliable third party sources, then please paraphrase and quote from them in a meaningful manner in context.
 * I would imagine that the "Rabbinical literature", as you describe it, would not be considered to be "third party" in this case, based on the subject matter of the article, which relates to Judaism. Maybe they could be included in the proper context of the development or promulgation of the disproven hypothesis, as part of a historical discourse analysis, for example.--Ubikwit (talk) 17:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

finally getting this right
This seems to have passed under the WP:FRINGE radar for years. This is quite appalling. The interesting core of the topic is that there was such a tradition which developed around the 16th century and seems to have been alive throughout the Mughal period. This tradition was noted by 19th century western authors. Nobody ever suggested that the hypothesis has any historical value outside the 1860s "Lost Tribe" fringe literature. This stuff was cranky even back when it was published. Any possible academic benefit of the doubt it may have had certainly been dispelled by 1900.

No enyclopedia would consider taking this "Lost Tribe" stuff at face value, and even bother to "refute" it with reference to "genetics" studies. Interestinly, the Ahmadiyya reference seems to have perpetuated this meme among Pashtuns(?) At least you do get crazy websites and youtube videos advocating it. Needless to say, these aren't "references". I doubt any sane reference considering this after 1900 can be cited. The 1958 Caroe quote just references the tradition, it does not endorse it. Granted, there is Ben-Zvi (1958) who references the tradition and expresses his sympathy for it,  It is an ancient tradition, and one not without some historical plausibility. So by all means cite that, but don't imply that this is any kind of "acadmemic" argument in favour of this thing. I suppose all kinds of crazy speculation can be found in Israel, but even in Israel, academic historians will be well aware that this "Ten Tribes" meme is just a fad that became popular in 18th/19th century Britain and lurks around in some crank narratives still. The phenomenon of these traditions can be discussed, but it is pointless to pretend discussing their "merit". --dab (𒁳) 13:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

 * I tried to get it right. The article as I found it is was a typical (and blatant) example of what happens when people who "want to believe" base an article on pieces written by journalists (who by profession have to dress things up as exciting). Journalism is the perfect antithesis of what Wikipedia is trying to do, but of course we can drily report on journalism as much as on anything else. --dab (𒁳) 08:54, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

R1a haplogroup is Slavic not Jewish
R1a haplogroup is generally Slavic, Scythian. And Jews have generally semitic haplogroups. This article is an occult nonsense. Wikipedia is literally becoming a Jewpedia

R1a is actually Indo-Iranian.Akmal94 (talk) 10:41, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Afghan terminology
This article is about the Pashtun people, one of whose archaic names was "Afghan". Outside of quotations, I don't see why we should still be referring to them by that archaism. Can we not change "Afghan" to "Pashtun", where obviously appropriate? - Sitush (talk) 13:27, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Its more appropriate to use Afghan in wiki articles as this is what they are known by in english. Afghan is basically another word for Pashtuns used by non-Pashtuns and not many people know who Pashtuns are outside of Afghanistan or Pakistan. Similar to how the Magyars are known as Hungarians and the Khmer's as Cambodian. Akmal94 (talk) 05:02, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Call for deletion
As we all know, this is an old wives tale propagated by the Mughals in the past on they're theories on the Pashtun people. However this was all in the past, where there no dna tests of any sort and such stories were believable. DNA studies today show that Pashtuns show absolutely NO genetic relations to Jews or any other middle eastern people and more related to their neighbours. Pashtuns also happen to be the highest carriers of the R1a halpogroup, which is indo-european and show relation to one another from tribe to tribe. My problem is, why should this article still exist if it has been proven wrong by history and genetic studies? I feel like it should be deleted so it doesn't cause confusion among readers or be used by people with an agenda or a negative motive to prove a point. I find this article more ridiculous than the "Theory of Pashtuns descent from Rajputs" which has no historical proof also and is propagated by one group of peoples opinions. Does anyone else agree? Akmal94 (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

 * The rightness or wrongness of the theory is not dispositive of its importance or notability. In fact, the prevalence of this disproved theory, like that of a flat earth, indicates that we should have such an article; however, it needs to be much more balanced than the current version. All of the historical, linguistic and genetic challenges to the theory have been removed from the article. --Bejnar (talk) 20:39, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Quite possibly because their didn't discuss the 'theory' (wrong word) of Pashtun descent from Israelites, and that's a basic requirement - sources must discuss the subject of the article. Doug Weller  talk 21:47, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * "sources must discuss the subject of the article" Not entirely true; sources must support the statements made, and conclusions need to be conclusions of the cited sources in order to avoid synthesis or original research. --Bejnar (talk) 01:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Well sources like do discuss the theory, although not in great detail. --Bejnar (talk) 09:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

 * The book may have copied from our articles. See Potentially unreliable sources/Books that plagiarize Wikipedia which shows how his book copied from another article of ours. We can't use it as a source. Doug Weller  talk 13:56, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

 * discusses the theory and its pitfalls, and the basic part of the article comes from a 1993 book that could not have plagiarized Wikipedia.

 * A non-genetic study addressed two predominent theories of Pashtun origin, the Bani Israel one and the soldiers of Alexander one, and found that "We have seen in the above mentioned references that the theory of Bani Israel about the origin of the Pashtoons is not reliable and nor it is based on authentic evidences." That same study concluded that absent any other evidence, the Greek origin of the Pashtuns was unlikely. The genealogical study,, provided that genetic evidence for some Greek ancestry. --Bejnar (talk) 01:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Some good finds, but the genetic 'study', which can be seen here seems a bit dubious. The authors aren't geneticists, so I am not at all sure it should be used. Sorry, got to get food out of oven. Doug Weller  talk 18:08, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Oops, missed the forest. Greek origin doesn't belong here, although it is mentioned at Pathans of Punjab with a perhaps better source. It's confusing that some article titles have one form of the name while others use a different one. Both hypothese are discussed at Khattak - the Israeli one should be a summary of this article. This is an interesting source but it's self-published. Used in 3 articles so I'll have to do a clearup. At Horned deity it says published by the Foursome Group, and you really don't want to do a search for that publisher. In any case Amazon says it's Createspace. Doug Weller  talk 21:43, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Perhaps the title of this article should be "Theories of Pashtun origin". Then all four theories could be discussed and compared. That would seeem to be a more NPOV approach. --Bejnar (talk) 02:57, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Good idea although they aren't theories. Doug Weller  talk 18:56, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The term "theory" is pretty broad, what do you mean when you say that they are not theories? Are you using a particular definition of theory? Khalil and Iqbal definitely called them theories. Do you mean that they are not all "scientific theories", that is, "hypotheses confirmed by observation"? Some of them are, such as partial Greek descent, and, I suspect, partial Mongol descent. --Bejnar (talk) 20:32, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to press the point. Do you think this is likely to be contested? If not, we can go ahead and do it. Doug Weller  talk 20:56, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Everything about Pashtuns is contested, but let's be bold, as no one else has joined this conversation. I've gone ahead and added a new lead, but the body of text will require a fair amount of work. By the way you said "The authors aren't geneticists, so I am not at all sure it should be used." It is a secondary source, not the primary research.  --Bejnar (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

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white hun
update the white hun part with that bactrian documents which mention afghan with regards to hephthalites — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.50.187.22 (talk) 16:13, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Legendary founding father
Why is there nothing about Qais Abdur Rashid? Mporter (talk) 08:21, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Theories of Pashtun origin


text:
Talk:Paul Henderson

Untitled
Check summary. Henderson was a career Left Winger not right wing as posted. This is in the hockey database - a cited source. Also article says summit series was WHA players. Error. It was NHL Players only and WHA players were excluded. Thus notable elite players missing included Bobby Hull and Gerry Cheevers and Derek Sanderson who may not have Played - yet they were not even comsidered because of employment in the "new"'league. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.168.75.136 (talk) 02:30, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

"Height" of the Cold War?
As much as I would like to glorify the 1972 Summit series I don't think it is fair to say it was played during the "height" of the Cold War. If anything tensions were actually pretty relaxed during the 70s (see: Détante). The height would be in the early 50s, 1962 (see: Cuban missile crisis) or in the early 80s Second Cold War. Kndimov (talk) 00:57, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I was thinking in terms of timing rather than immediately related events, though it is worth noting that the Summit Series was conceived several years prior under Trudeau's concept of "hockey diplomacy" to try and help break the ice, so to speak.  I'm open to suggestions on better wording, however. Thanks, Resolute 16:26, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Picture
Does anyone think the picture of Paul Henderson need improvement? It looks to me like he just sat on a hotplate, or someone has a gun in his back. Jokem (talk) 03:01, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Alas, we are generally restricted to images that can be used for free. Fair use media is allowed only in limited cases.  For this particular article, we are fortunate that the historicity of Frank Lennon's photograph is so significant that inclusion can be justified. Resolute 21:44, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I sent a message to 'contact us' in the NHL link asking for a better picture. I did my good deed for the day. Jokem (talk) 05:19, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Paul Henderson


text: Talk:Buzz Schneider

title: Talk:Buzz Schneider


text: Category talk:Edmonton Oilers (WHA) players


text: Category talk:Indianapolis Racers players


text: Category talk:New England Whalers players