text:
KNMI-mast Cabauw

The KNMI-mast Cabauw is a 213-metre (699') high guyed mast for meteorological measurements at Cabauw, the Netherlands. In 1972 at Cabauw (06348) a 213 metre (699') high mast was specifically built for meteorological research to establish relations between the state of the atmospheric boundary layer (ABL), land surface conditions and the general weather situation for all seasons. The Cabauw mast is located in the western part of the Netherlands (51.971 °N, 4.927 °E) in a polder 0.7 metres (28") below average sealevel. This site was chosen, because it is rather representative for this part of the Netherlands and because only minor landscape developments were planned in this region. However, significant changes are the removal of the trees along a road east of the mast in 1975, and the building of houses in the village of Lopik east of the mast in more recent years.

The North Sea is more than 50 km (30 miles) away to the WNW. The nearby region is agricultural, and surface elevation changes are at most a few metres (yards) over 20 km (12 miles). Within 40 km (25 miles) radius there are four major synoptic weather stations, among which is the regular radiosonde station at De Bilt (06260), ensuring a permanent supporting mesoscale network. Near the mast, the terrain is open pasture for at least 400 metres (yards) in all directions, and in the WSW direction for 2 km (1¼ miles). Farther away, the landscape is generally very open in the West sector, while the distant East sector is rather rough (windbreaks, orchards, low houses).

The distant North and South sectors are mixed landscapes, much pasture and some windbreaks. So the highest mast levels have in all directions a long fetch of landscape roughness which is usefully similar to the roughness observed in the lower surface layer. On the mast itself no undisturbed measurements can be made below 20 metres (60'). Therefore, auxiliary 20 metre (60') masts are installed to the SE and the NW at sufficient distance from the mast foot building. South of the mast is a well-kept observation field for micrometeorological observations, including soil heat flux, soil temperatures and various radiation measurements; north of the mast is a spare observation field. The soil consists of 0.6 metres (2') of river-clay, overlying a thick layer of peat. The water table is about 1 metres (3') below the surface, but can be higher during wet periods.

The mast is a closed cylinder of 2 metres (6') diameter, with an elevator inside. It is guyed at four levels, and carries booms at 20 metre (60') intervals in three directions. The 9.4 metre (30') booms can be swung up hydraulically, so that instruments at their ends can be handled from an upper balcony; this swivelling mounting allows much longer booms than the customary sideways-sliding construction. Permanent signal cables in the boom tubes run through the hollow swivel axis, so during boom motion they are only torsion-deformed, a more endurable load than bending. Built around the mast foot is a 200 m2 (2000 sq. ft.) streamlined building for registration and maintenance purposes. On top of the mast, a compact weather radar was installed in 2007, measuring precipitation up to a radius of 60 km (40 miles) around the mast.

title: KNMI-mast Cabauw


text: Talk:Eddie Johnston

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Eddie Johnston


text:
Talk:Curtis Joseph

B class article
This article is coming along well. The article contains infobox, several appropriate categories, pertinent sections, early life as well as professional career, picture, and sources. WP banners are listed on the talk page as well. It should soon be able to advance if a couple of points can be fixed such as...
 * It would be ready for a good article review soon, I believe, if the paragraphs could be sourced better - try to aim for a source for each fact or at least 2-3 references per paragraph at least if possible. The referencing method on this article has been changed somewhat -  one citation can be used more than once - if it is appropriate to more than one fact.  See templates for citations and Sourcing for more clews.
 * The other thing that is often requested as an article improves would be that the lead paragraph in a well written article sometimes must stand alone ie a feature article has only its lead paragraph on the front page of wikipedia. So without looking at the rest of the article, would only the lead paragraph introduce the reader to a glimpse of all the ensuing paragraphs/sections, and entice the reader to click on the article, if only the lead paragraph were the one that was read by the reader?
 * Eliminate empty sections if there is no pertinent info.SriMesh | talk  02:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

GA nomination

 * GA review (see here for criteria)

After extensive discussion with the nominator of this article over IRC, I not believe it meets all of the good article criteria, thus, I'm passing it as a GA. Congrats to the main contributors and good work :) Qst 21:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

How do you not believe it meets the criteria and still pass it? Just kidding, probably a typo.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 21:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Curtis Munroe?
Now that's something I hadn't known. GoodDay (talk) 18:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC) --Notre Dame Prep== Which high school did Curtis Joseph attend when leading the team to the Centennial Cup. There are more than one Notre Dame high schools. Kind RegardsSriMesh | talk  17:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I am Curtis Joseph and I'm seeing a few mistakes on my page such as where I was born. I was not born in Keswick nor did I ever live there. Somehow that mistake happened and it showed up on everything. I'd like to correct some of the mistakes on my page along with adding some recent events such as my marriage. Let me know how this can be done. Thanks

Curtis — Preceding unsigned comment added by Curtisjoseph (talk • contribs) 13:46, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Curtis. I would suggest emailing the address at Contact_us_-_Subjects. Somebody from the Volunteer Response Team should be able to help you. TerminalPreppie (talk) 14:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Curtis Joseph


text:
Talk:Real Tennis World Championship

Help requested
Anyone with information on the players listed (or if you happen to be one of them yourself) please feel free to contribute. Names in red need a new article. Many in blue are simple stubs. See Tom Pettitt for a fair example of a short article. --Eoghanacht 21:33, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)

Mens doubles
Just happened to stumble upon this page while idling away a monday afternoon. I've noticed that the mens doubles is out of date. I've had a good look on google and can't find any reference to the recent world championship result. Perhaps someone with more knowledge can update this? Tellkel 14:17, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I found out that Fahey/Virgona defended the title in 5 sets. I don't know the score, or even their opponents.  The page text has been updated -- but the list has not changed, as it lists when the competitor(s) first won the title. —  Eoghanacht  talk 13:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Pierre Etchebaster years?
According to this site Pierre Etchebaster only defended his title 6 times (meaning he won 7 times). But this site lists 8 wins. If anyone can clarify this discreptancy, please do so. — Eoghanacht  talk 15:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Real Tennis World Championship


text:
Talk:Ed Jovanovski

ethnicity
I had reworded the article to state "Macedonian Canadian" which sounds better.Maktruth (talk) 04:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed "Macedonian Canadian". I can understand and fully respect that Macedonian people are rightfully proud of Ed Jovanovski. Nevertheless, given that he was born in Canada, he is fully Canadian. I do not see many significant links with Macedonia. If that were the case, saying Macedonian Canadian would be justified. Wayne Gretzky's grandfather was born in Poland, but if you note his bio, you will see that he is listed as a Canadian. No offence intended here to Macedonian people, but I feel that Ed is Canadian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Lincoln (talk • contribs) 05:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ed Jovanovski


text:
User talk:BigYak

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
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Zzyzx11 | Talk 21:34, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:BigYak


text:
Talk:Paul Kariya

Japanese Hockey player?
Why has someone labeled him Japanese? He is Canadian with Scottish/Japanese heritage. Hdw 16:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

FYI...It is more proper to call him a Japanese-Canadian. His last name is Japanese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.191.139 (talk) 19:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Nickname
Per WP:HOCKEY's decision to remove the nickname field from the infobox, it is being moved here for use later. "| nickname = Mighty Mouse " -Djsasso (talk) 21:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

neutraility banner
the conversation (what there was of it) is no longer even on this page. You can go back though the history of the talk page and see what was removed and why. since this is not an ongoing concern, can we get the banner removed? Childhoodtrauma (talk) 19:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

 * removed since it's been months. 67.169.145.35 (talk) 04:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Uncited material
Removed uncited material from article and placed here if anyone can find a reference for them: Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 10:46, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * At a team rally following the Ducks' game seven loss to the Devils, Kariya promised to bring the Cup to Anaheim in 2004. A verbal agreement with then-GM Bryan Murray was broken by Kariya after his $10 million-per-year contract was not qualified. Murray intended to re-sign Kariya at a lower amount (believed to be in the $6–7 million range, to which Kariya had verbally agreed) and use the extra money to find the final piece to the Cup puzzle via free agency.

Picture focus
can we not find a picture that's in focus? or is this supposed to be artistic? (it's not. it's just annoyingly out of focus.)Toyokuni3 (talk) 00:05, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Paul Kariya


text:
User talk:Ahalsall

Xenosaga
Great work on the Testaments article! Thanks for contributing to the Xenosaga section. - Revolver Ocelot 21:34, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Did Virgil really refer to chaos as his boss? I don't remember that part. → Jarlaxle Artemis   03:19, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ahalsall


text:
Talk:Mike Keane

French language controversy
If there's any sources, could we mention Keane's pointing out French wasn't a requirement to be Canadiens captain? It caused a stir (much to the delight of sovereignist) before the October 30th, 1995 Quebec referendum. GoodDay 23:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * very late in this discussion. But I beleive there would be sources. I distinctly remember this being an 'issue' in the french media about not wanting to speak french. I will keep an eye out. Ottawa4ever (talk) 08:25, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This seems to be the most relaible source, http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/hockey/story.html?id=a42ef87e-63ec-4572-9710-e2a01d1cd519&k=81954# so ill try to work it in Ottawa4ever (talk) 08:28, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mike Keane


text: Talk:Rick Kehoe

title: Talk:Rick Kehoe


text: Talk:Mike Kitchen

title: Talk:Mike Kitchen


text:
Talk:Mike Knuble

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title: Talk:Mike Knuble


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User talk:Quibus

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * How to edit a page
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 * If you're ready for the complete list of Wikipedia documentation, there's also Topical index.

Zzyzx11 | Talk 21:35, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Re: (Questions about) Disruptive editing
Hi Quibus. I'm not sure I can efficiently answer your specific questions, as they are much the same as unanswered questions I've had in the past myself. The general rule with user-warnings (see WP:USETEMP), is that you start by issuing a level-1 template for the first instance of disruption, level-2 for the second, and so on, until you've reached the last level-number of that particular template series. If the disruptive user continues to disrupt after a final warning has been issued, the next step is to report them to WP:AIV, where an administrator will review the activity and take further action (such as a block) if necessary. WP:AIV however, requires your report to be made while the disruptive edits are still fresh, and preferably while the disruptive user is still logged into that particular editing session. This means that you've missed your opportunity to report by eight days. The only thing I can recommend in this case, is leaving a personally written message on the offending IP's talk-page... that will be seen by a patrolling admin and taken into account if that IP continues to edit disruptively in future sessions. Hope this helps address some of the concerns and questions you've asked. :) -- WikHead (talk) 21:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Excellent! I'm glad I was of some help to you. I guess part of the confusion I'm often faced with, is knowing how to properly deal with disruptive editors who continue their activities after returning from a block (or multiple blocks). It just seems strange to me, to simply rehash the same generic templates from level-1 all over again. It makes me scratch my head and wonder how many times the user needs a "final warning", or how many times we need to generically say "welcome to Wikipedia, blah blah blah..." The time restrictions with WP:AIV can be a bit frustrating as well, as I often find articles abused by a user who has been given a final warning, but several days too late to report. It seems there's no specific template to address this. Bottom line however, I think it's most important that the articles get reverted and restored to clean versions as quickly as possible. Quality is number one! Compulsive disruptive users always seem to get caught red-handed in the end... it just takes a little patience sometime. ;) -- WikHead (talk) 16:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Your article has been moved to AfC space
Hi! I would like to inform you that the Articles for Creation submission which was previously located here: User:Quibus/Harold Budd discography has been moved to Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Harold Budd discography, this move was made automatically and doesn't affect your article, if you have any questions please ask on my talk page! Have a nice day. ArticlesForCreationBot (talk) 22:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Opeth Wiki
'''Please do not revert that last change on Opeth's wiki change. Seriously i am getting tired of edits that i do getting reverted because YOU disagree with it. I spoke to Mikael personally from Opeth a long time ago.. and Megadeth ARE one of their influences. Sure their influence isin't as heavy as they had with bands like Death or Black Sabbath but they are an influence to them to a certain extent. So please do not revert that edit again, because the information is correct.''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.16.81 (talk) 17:05, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation
 Harold Budd discography, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created. Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia! Alpha_Quadrant   (talk)  02:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The article has been assessed as List-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.
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Slayer
The IP had repaired vandalism, which you then restored. The "singing telegram" addition was a bogus edit that was added in October by and went undetected until the IP noticed it and corrected it. You should probably remove the warning you gave them. --Bongwarrior (talk) 18:37, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

 * My bad, I thought I dug deep enough in the article history. It looked like the telegram was the actual fact, not the pizza - although it was hard picturing Lombardo as singing telegram ;). I removed the warning from the IPs talk page and noticed you already reverted the Slayer article. Thank you for warning me. Quibus (talk) 19:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Thank you. I wish it were true - one of the guys from Slayer delivering singing telegrams is quite the mental image. Take care. --Bongwarrior (talk) 19:26, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification
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Jah Wobble
No problem—it's an easy enough mistake to make. For that reason among others that "Rotter" fellow should have thought of another name, imo. A Happy New Year to you as well! Cheers Malljaja (talk) 23:03, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

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SUL
I confirm requesting usurpation of user Quibus on: Quibus (talk) 21:42, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * fr:User:Quibus
 * nl:User:Quibus ✅ - Freaky Fries (talk) 14:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * ro:User:Quibus ✅ 2012-02-20 - Andrei (talk) 16:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * sk:User:Quibus 17:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Re:Bon Iver
In a template (Template:Bon Iver in this case) links will appear in blue. When you click them, the article will appear in bold letters (for example Wikipedia talk:Sandbox is now bolded as it the article the reader is at the moment. But if you add a redirect ( WT:SB in this case, the article will appear in blue, even if it the currect article. This create a circular and unnecessary link that cas be avoided as I did. The correct way is that WP:RM, but consider that this has been discussed before. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions.  20:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Unified login
When logging into Wikipedia through unified login, I'm logged into every project except Wiktionary (and of course the three projects pending SUL-request). At first this was solved by not using the secure server ( https:// ), but now it refuses regardless of settings. When logging into Wiktionary directly there is no problem, but then I won't be logged into any of the other projects. In both cases the icons shown suggest I should be logged into all projects. To make it even more interesting: when logging into Wiktionary (manually) after logging into Wikipedia, then logging out on Wiktionary, all of a sudden I am logged out on Wikipedia too, so for logging out it does seem to work... I haven't been able to find anything in the help sections, can someone help me out? Thank you, — Quibus (talk) 10:14, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Special:CentralAuth/Quibus shows a different icon for Wiktionary. Unfortunately I don't know what the icons mean! -- John of Reading (talk) 11:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The icon means that the account was not automatically created but attached by using the password. Unfortunately that does not help with the problem. Since this is a fairly technical problem, I doubt the helpme-tag will attract anyone able to help with that. I suggest you ask at the technical Village Pump or the help desk instead where it might attract more views. Regards  So Why  12:30, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Resolved, — Quibus (talk) 19:19, 10 February 2012 (UTC) (link repair to archive, — Quibus (talk) 08:03, 28 February 2012 (UTC))

Quiet Riot
Thanks for that. I was actually in the midst of trying to fix it myself when I got sidetracked. The secondary source on Leon is in the body of the article, I believe. Thanks for your help. Best, A Sniper (talk) 18:24, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Devin Townsend
You sure? The Infinity booklet spells it Garret. —Gendralman (talk) 01:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

RE: WP:MOS
There are at least two places where this is discussed: MOS:BIO and WP:LEAD, as well as the policy WP:NPOV. I'm going to explain you why the "X is an Award-winning/nominated" phrases are wrong. "Bon Iver ( /boʊn iːˈvɛər/ bone ee-VARE) is an American folk band founded in 2007 by indie folk singer-songwriter Justin Vernon. Band members include Michael Noyce, Sean Carey, and Matthew McCaughan, among others. Its name is derived from the French phrase bon hiver (French pronunciation: [bɔn‿ivɛːʁ]), meaning "good winter" or "have a good winter".
 * MOS:BIO - Although many people argue that bands/groups are not biographies, bands and groups include important aspects of their members, meaning that they are biographies. For example, Destiny's Child is part of the biography of Beyoncé Knowles, Kelly Rowland and Michelle Williams; Slipknot is part of the biography of Corey Taylor, et al.; OneRepublic is part of the biography of Ryan Tedder and the other members, and many other examples. MOSBIO says: "The opening paragraph should open with: Name(s) and title(s), dates of birth and death, (in this case date of formation and splits), context, the notable actions or roles the [band] played, and why the [band] is significant."
 * NPOV - The problem with say that "The Artist™" is an award-winning person is that we immediately are saying the reader that we focus more in The Artist™'s achievements rather than other important aspects of his life. Why we choose the Academy Award or the Grammy Award than other awards? "Because the Oscar/Grammy is the most important award in the cinema/music category." That's the meaning of choosing awards as the opening sentence. Also they mean this: "Sandra Bullock (born July 26, 1964) is an Academy-Award winning actress" -> "The Academy Award for Best Actress-winner Sandra Bullock is..." the same intention with a different order.
 * MOS:LEAD - In its lead it has two important notes: 1) The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects. (The news-journalism jargon term lede is sometimes used, but can be misleading, because Wikipedia leads are not written in news style, and journalistic ledes serve different purposes from encyclopedic leads "Paulina Rubio is a gay icon and..." or "Marie Skłodowska-Curie is a two-times Nobel prize winner...". Winning an award, being an icon, or other irrelevant journalism jargon is not for Wikipedia, if those aspects are important, add them later with a neutral language. 2) It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points. Which lead sounds better?

Vernon released Bon Iver's debut album, For Emma, Forever Ago independently in July 2007. The album was well-received by music critics, and received moderate success in the charts. In 2009, Bon Iver released the EP Bood Bank which [did something important to their career]. In 2012, the band received national and international recognition after Bon Iver won two Grammy Awards, for Best New Artist and for Best Alternative Music Album for their self-titled album, also was nominated for two Brit Awards."

or "Bon Iver ( /boʊn iːˈvɛər/ bone ee-VARE) a two-times Grammy-award winning, two-times Brit-award nominated band founded in 2007 by American indie folk singer-songwriter Justin Vernon. It includes Michael Noyce, Sean Carey, and Matthew McCaughan. Vernon released Bon Iver's debut album, For Emma, Forever Ago independently in July 2007. The majority of that album was recorded while Vernon spent three months in a remote cabin in northwestern Wisconsin. Bon Iver won the 2012 Grammy Award for Best New Artist and Grammy Award for Best Alternative Music Album for their self-titled album. The name Bon Iver is derived from the French phrase bon hiver (French pronunciation: [bɔn‿ivɛːʁ]), meaning "good winter" or "have a good winter"."

Many newbies add them because "it is correct", "it is an important award", "it is part of their career" or "it is in article X, should be here too". That's are the three main reasons why those sentences should be avoided and hidden notes like "Awards don't belong here" should be written. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions.  21:19, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you; I updated it, I forgot to do that. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it!  See terms and conditions.  05:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Quiet Riot template
Just regarding this edit, Rudy Sarzo was also a member of Ozzy's band not just Rhoads, the fact that there was 2 Quiet Riot members, I thought it warranted inclusion. Saying that, it isn't that important to include but just thought I would let you know my reason. Happy editing! HrZ (talk) 17:10, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Quiet Riot (Overlinking)
Noticed the reverts. Thought I would mention that lists (or tables) such as band members and discographys listed at the end of an article are generally linked. As far as I am aware, it is instruments that shouldn't be linked (but don't quote me on that). Also, per WP:OVERLINKING: Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, links may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead.

Hope this helps. Regards. HrZ (talk) 15:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem. It was a fairly small issue that could have easily been solved with a message. You reverted and cited a policy. It's hardly the definition of edit warring. It's safe to say that it is unlikely they checked WP:OVERLINKING, or else they would have read the above. Regards. HrZ (talk) 12:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
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title: User talk:Quibus


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title: Talk:Orland Kurtenbach


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Talk:Patrick Lalime

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Quality rating
I have downgraded the quality rating on this article to class=C today, because at the moment it has just three references. Additionally, one of them just has the title "TSN" and the referenced target is 404. That's nowhere near enough to qualify for a 'B' rating.  PK T (alk)  00:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Patrick Lalime


text:
Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth

The Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth is a Catholic religious institute based in Leavenworth, Kansas who follow in the tradition of Saints Vincent de Paul and Louise de Marillac. A member of the Sisters of Charity Federation in the Vincentian-Setonian Tradition, the order operates schools and hospitals in the United States and Peru. Members are denominated with the post-nominal letters SCL.

History
The Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth developed from the congregation of the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth, headquartered in Bardstown, Kentucky.

Mother Xavier Ross
Mother Xavier Ross was born Ann Ross in Cincinnati, Ohio on November 17, 1813, one of five children of Richard and Elizabeth Taylor Ross. Her father was a Methodist preacher. At the age of sixteen she converted to Roman Catholicism, much to the consternation of her father. Her Father would never forgive her for this, He later sent a lock of his hair that had turned gray with the words, “You did this”. She was not a physically large person standing at just barely five feet tall but she had what would later be written as the “will of a winner by a contemporary.” Not long after she joined the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth, and upon completion of her novitiate was sent to Louisville, Kentucky to teach at the Orphan Asylum. Ann was renamed Xavier after the 16th-century Jesuit Missionary St. Francis Xavier. In 1853 she was transferred to Nashville, Tennessee, and later to Helena, Montana to take charge of the Academy there.

In 1858 Mother Xavier Ross came to Leavenworth, from Nashville, Tennessee, at the invitation of Bishop John Baptiste Miege. However, The Sisters of Charity were also in great debt due to being “under a bishop who was ultimately unable to sponsor them.” Before Mother Xavier left for Leavenworth, the community commenced a Novena to Mary, Queen of Heaven. This became a particular tradition. She gradually lost her hearing, and by 1858 was obliged to use an ear trumpet.

The very first interaction between Mother Xavier and Bishop Miege went as smoothly as it could have gone. Mother Xavier was presenting her case on why she and her community should be accepted into the bishop’s diocese. The acceptance went thought as “The bishop recognized before him a woman of the highest integrity who had undergone a severe trial and was capable of enduring even more.”

Within a week of arriving in Leavenworth, the sisters were teaching in a boys’ school. The days that followed found them opening an academy for girls, visiting wagon trains and traveling to towns to tend the sick during epidemics. They educated black children who had fled to the free state of Kansas, took in orphans, and visited prisoners. In 1864 the Sisters opened the first private hospital in Kansas. Sister Joanna Bruner, trained nurse taught nursing to other Sisters.

Present Day: The Legacy of Mother Xavier
Currently, on the campus of the University of Saint Mary, the multi-level building called Xavier Hall is the first building that encircles the campus. Xavier Hall is connected to Saint Mary Hall and Mead Hall. Xavier Hall has a theater, music, history, and political science classes. The first floor of Xavier Hall is the fine arts area which is used for fine arts classes with an art studio and Goppert Gallery. Within Goppert Gallery, they hold art exhibits which are mainly by the art students at the University of Saint Mary. The second floor of Xavier Hall has the Art, History, Political Science, and Theater departments. The third floor of Xavier Hall has the Xavier Theater which is used for many different purposes including orientation for students and for plays that are put on by the theater department.

Evangelizing Native Americans
The Sisters of Charity had already thought about making their journey to Leavenworth when they heard from Bishop Miege about the abundance of land they can use to continue their labors of charity. Not to mention, the Sisters would also be able to meet the Native Americans who had possessed the land first, “...and eventually they hoped to be employed in evangelizing the Indians, a work for which they most ardently longed.” When Mother Xavier returned back to Nashville, she could only report back to the Sisters that there were four Indian tribes; Pawnee, Osage, Kansa, and the Paducah. While the Sisters listened, ““The young Sisters sat by waiting, if possible, to get in a word 'edgewise' to ask Mother 'if she saw any Indians,’ for the word Indian, missionary, Far West, Wigwam, Squaw, Papoose, tomahawk, stake, scalp, and the like, had great attractions for them.-". Although the Sisters never succeeded in evangelizing the Native Americans in Leavenworth, Kansas, they did successfully establish a school on the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming at the Indian assimilation school named St. Stephen’s Mission School in January 1889.

Although the objective in the 1860s to the 1890s was to convert Native Americans to Catholicism, that is no longer their mission. According to a 2023 statement, the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth, “We, the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth, are in the process of educating ourselves about the St. Stephen’s Mission School. We will review our history and other historical sources to gain a fuller understanding of the history of Native American schools. We will take our time to fully explore the injustices these schools inflicted upon Native American peoples and then seek to achieve a true and deep reconciliation.” This statement came out after the list of Catholic run Native Boarding schools in the United States was released by the Catholic Truth and Healing Organization.

Expansion
There were 12 original Sisters that made the migration West. On November 12, 1858, the first five arrived. At the first of December that same year, five more sisters arrived West. The final two, including Mother Xavier, made their trip on February 21, 1859. In 1863, Miege wanted the Sisters to have their own hospital to tend the sick and those in need. The very next year on March 15, 1864, the hospital opened its doors.

By  1868, the Sisters of Charity were in need of a Mother House. Bishop Miege was ready and approved the idea of building the Academy, “Bishop Miege, taking a small linen robe from his buggy, spread it on the grass and said, ‘This is where your house shall be.’” The bishop purchased 15 acres of land (was then given 5 free) and on Feast of St. Catherine of Siena, the foundation of the Mother House was laid. Interestingly enough, the ground plan of the Mother House is in the formation of a cross.

The Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth came to the Montana gold camp of Helena in 1869 at the invitation of the Jesuits to teach youth, care for orphans, and minister to the sick in the frontier community. There they founded St. Joseph’s Home, the territory’s first orphanage. In 1873, they founded St. Joseph Hospital in Denver, Colorado. In 1875, another St. Joseph’s Hospital was established in Laramie, Wyoming, and soon after, St. Mary’s Academy there soon after.

They founded and operate the University of Saint Mary in Leavenworth, Saint John's Health Center in Santa Monica, California, and St. Francis Health Center in Topeka. From 1864 to 1952, the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth established or assumed responsibility for 18 hospitals from Kansas to California.

Since the 1960s, the Sisters of Charity have expanded work in social services and outreach, and operate missions in South America and Italy. In one of Bishop Miege’s final letters as a bishop that he sent out, he expressed that his choice to bring the Sisters of Charity was, “one of the very few good things I ever did for Kansas.”

title: Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth


text:
User talk:Dthomas~enwiki

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title: User talk:Dthomas~enwiki


text: Talk:Daymond Langkow

title: Talk:Daymond Langkow


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Talk:Jacques Lemaire

Rotating Captaincy
Lemaire never rotated the captaincy in his first stint in New Jersey, nor has he removed Langenbrunner from the captaincy this season. 99.18.15.204 (talk) 04:04, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

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Talk:Claude Lemieux

Untitled
This page contradicts the Mike Keane page which states that 8 players have won cups with 3 different teams. Which is correct? MantleX 12:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I found this: Joe is one of but a handful of NHL players to have won the Stanley Cup with three different teams. The Oshawa, Ontario native won the Stanley Cup in 1989 as a member of the Calgary Flames, won the Conn Smythe Trophy as the most valuable playoff performer when his Dallas Stars captured the Cup in 1999 and played an integral role with the Devils this Spring when New Jersey collected hockey's most cherished trophy. Only five other players have accomplished the same feat since the NHL's formation — Gord Pettinger (Rangers in 1933, Red Wings in 1937 and Bruins in 1939), Al Arbour (with the Wings in 1954, Chicago in 1961 and as a Leaf in 1962 and '64), Larry Hillman (with the '55 Red Wings, '64 and '67 vintage Maple Leafs and as a Canadien in 1969), Claude Lemieux (with Montreal in 1986, New Jersey in 1995 and Colorado in 1996) and Mike Keane (Montreal in 1993, Colorado in 1996 and with the Stars in 1999). Source: http://www.hhof.com/html/exSCJ_16.shtml MantleX 12:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Currently
We have 2 different currently statements in the article. One he's coaching, two he's training, and I just found this article which states he's playing in the Asia hockey league which isn't even mentioned in the article .--Crossmr (talk) 17:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems he was only here for 3 games.--Crossmr (talk) 17:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Claude Lemieux


text:
Talk:Mario Lemieux

Stats and cleanup
NOTE: Someone messed up his stats... his point totals don't match his goals and assists. One season had shown 2500 points (which clearly was wrong). There are further inaccurancies in his stats... someone should cross reference them with the NHL ones to make sure they're OK.

clean-up

I agree that the Mario page needs to be cleaned-up. any suggestions on what approach should be taken?

The last section should be broken up into initial retirement and his return to the game. Zeus1233 08:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

 * it is ok 173.209.148.42 (talk) 17:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * it will be ok 173.209.148.42 (talk) 17:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

There is no mention in the article of him having cancer or carrying the Olympic torch in 2001.

 * It does mention his cancer, his specific form of cancer was Hodgkin's disease, which the article names, but the article does not use the word cancer. Qutezuce 21:46, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Regarding clean-up, some of the wording is confusing in places. I'll play around with it, just to make clarifications in the language, and get back to you all in a while to see what you think. I don't see too many problems with the layout, however, so I'll leave that be. Cheers. --Noxalk 18:40, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * This article has been tagged for cleanup. This guy is meant to be one of the game's greats, but this article is dreadful. What's with the TOC, and having a section for every season? Why aren't ==Level2 headings== used?Where are the external links - a team bio, his website? et's not even start on references. This article needs a lot of work, and maybe if he retires that will spur on some hockey fans to do something about it. Harro5 02:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Three Stanley Cups Is Lemieux the only person to get his name engraved on the Cup as a player and then as an owner? If so, do you think the article should mention this?

Yet another boring language debate.
We've gone over this time and time again, and it's high time people stopped provoking edit wars over it. The Manual of Style does not say that the language of an article must follow the subject's birth nationality: the turn of phrase is "Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the spelling of that country." Lemieux is an American citizen who resides in the United States, has played his entire professional career for an American team and is the owner of an American corporation, and it is both reasonable for the article to follow us-en standard but follows the final rule of the section: "If all else fails, consider following the spelling style preferred by the first major contributor (that is, not a stub) to the article." Now I support, and have edited to suit, articles concerning Canadian teams or players predominantly on Canadian teams into cd-en standard -- it only makes sense for non-Canadian Mats Sundin, who has exclusively played for Canadian teams, just for example, to have a cd-en article -- but this is needlessly provocative. Ravenswing 18:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Legacy Off the Ice
I think this would be a good section to incorporte. Something about how the city of Pittsburgh views him as the Franchise's savior (three times over). Also, his off-ice legacy was recently in danger of being tarnished (if the team were to have been moved out of Pittsburgh). Instead, Lemieux's deal with PA state officials to build a new $290 M arena assured the team would remain in Pittsburgh for another 30 years. Lemieux was again praised by fans and the media for "saving the franchise," which may have finally secured his legacy as a Pittsburgh sports' hero. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.100.201.69 (talk) 06:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
 * We love to have ideas. Do you have any references? Flibirigit 21:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Where Exactly Does He Live?
Although Mario has a Sewickley mailing address, I believe he actually lives in the Borough of Edgeworth. Edgeworth borders the Borough of Sewickly and Mario lives pretty much on the line ... but I believe he's officially in Edgeworth.

 * "Believe," or know for a certain fact? Ravenswing 17:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * does it really matter exactly where he lives?--Alhutch 17:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * No it really doesn't matter. But for sake of accuracy (isn't that what wikipedia's all about?), I brought forward this point.  I know where his house is located but it's right on the border of the two boroughs.  I was hoping someone else knew for a fact.  I'll only update the site if I know for a fact it's Edgeworth.
 * OK. I was just able to verify from the Allegheny County web site.  The Municipal Code for his lot is 851 - Sewickley.  Sorry for the confusion.--66.230.74.226 17:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. A family friend was diagnosed with Hodgkins disease.  Thanks to a few letters to the Lemieux foundation, Mario sent her a nice card and kind words.  They now keep in touch where she writes him at his home address in Sewickley —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.100.201.69 (talk) 07:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

If I'm not mistaken Mario sold his controlling interest in the Penguins and the entry should reflect that. I would edit it as such, but I am too lazy.
 * Not yet he hasn't::

Clean-up
I did a lot of work cleaning up this article as best as I could, it isn't perfect, but it is a lot more encyclopedic than the last version. Croat Canuck  04:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * thank you

NPOV
"Many consider Lemieux to be the most talented hockey player ever."

This phrase in particular sets off a red flag - both for NPOV and for weasel words. - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - Comment - 11:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Could we use this source? Here we have Bobby Orr and Brian Trottier both calling him the greatest player they'd seen, plus numerous comments like that also coming from sports media, members of the NHL, and other players. I also found an AP article on Lemieux's retirement, calling him "arguably the most talented player in NHL history." http://www.cbc.ca/sports/columns/newsmakers/lemieux_symposium.html http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=16660 Wafulz 16:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

 * This is the same problem we have with the Gretzky article. Who's to say who's the best or most talented? RasputinAXP   c  18:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Well I think the qualifer "some" here does apply. We're saying that some do consider him to be the greatest, which includes other players and members of the media, and we also have sources to back it up. It's impossible to objectively say that someone is the best player ever because there's so many things to look at, but we can at least say that many do think he is the best. Wafulz 19:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Isn't qualifying it by saying "many people" sufficient. Sources also exist.  It's pretty indisputable that Mario was top 4 ever to play the game.  If we are on such a quest for objectivity, you will take away a lot of valuable information from a lot of articles.TheHammer24 17:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I think this is a better wording. I think the best indication of his greatness is that listing of points and assists in a season where the top 10 names are either Gretzky or Mario. Also we should confine it to the greatest forward of all time to be more precise. Benkenobi18 (talk) 03:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Mario's real name is not Greg.
Mario's real name is not Greg, however I am unable to edit this.

Mario Lemieux image
Perhaps I'm nitpicking, but does anyone have an image of Lemieux wearing the 'C' on his Penguins jersey. He was the Penguins captain for 14 years- total (counting the 2004-05 NHL lockout). GoodDay 19:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality
This article contains weasel words that prevent neutrality from occuring on this page. Examples include: Unrefrenced statements like this are just one person's point of view. Please consider adjusting the wording to bring the article up to Wikipedia standards. Icestorm815 03:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Lemieux is generally regarded as one of the greatest players to ever play in the NHL.
 * Lemieux was viewed as the savior of the franchise.

 * I've changed the tag to weasel. The statements need citations and tweaking, but within the hockey world, it's generally accepted that Lemieux is one of the greatest players and that he effectively saved the Pittsburgh Penguins.   -Wafulz 15:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm not saying that he isn't a great player, but the way the article is written, it seems that there is a bias towards Mario. In the case of how he saved the Pittsburgh Penguins, you should just state some of the facts of how he did it, and let the reader interpret the information on their own, as opposed to just stating he was a savior. I'm not trying to be offensive, I just think it helps to play the devil's advocate because it allows the article to move closer to FA status. Icestorm815 16:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Listing sources
In the collaborative spirit of Wiki- blah blah blah, here are some sources that others can use if they want to help out (post them if you find them):

 * Timeline of his career:
 * Legends of hockey:
 * Hockeydraftcentral:
 * TSN profile:
 * Video game appearances (I'm surprised Mario Lemieux Hockey doesn't have an article):
 * Walk of Fame:
 * Askmen:
 * Video reactions on his retirement: Wafulz 00:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * hockeydraftcentral:

No mention of his last two 5-goal games! What the...
How can his 5-goal game against Gretzky in 1996 not be mentioned?

Same thing for his 5-goal game against the Rangers which I believe came in 1993 during the 93-94 season?

I'm pretty sure there are many other memorable moments missing from the article, but these 2 should definitely be in there! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivand67 (talk • contribs) 04:27, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Nickname
Per WP:HOCKEY's decision to remove the nickname field from the infobox, it is being moved here for use later. "| nickname    = Super Mario Le Magnifique The Magnificent One" -Djsasso (talk) 21:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Would they be relavent to the prose somewhere? I have heard him called all three (well, "both" as one is a translation), and I'm sure numerous others but I don't know if there's a source for any.  Black  ngold29   22:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's easy enough to find notable sources using the nicknames. Here's two from CBC: .-Wafulz (talk) 01:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

organization / timeframes for pro career
this probably needs to be re-done. i would suggest something like the following:

1984-1987 getting started 1987-1995 Canada Cup, Harts/scoring titles, Stanley Cups, Hodgkins, full missed season 1995-1997 first comeback - more scoring titles and a Hart 1997-2000 first retirement, ownership 2000-2005 second comeback - player/owner, '02 Olympic gold, '04 World Cup gold 2006-present second retirement, ownership (my subtitles are not well-thought out... the time periods are what I'm really worried about here) 72.73.50.2 (talk) 20:51, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Legacy Section
Shouldn't it say his career was cut short due to Hodgkins Lymphoma and severe back problems. He missed a lot of time (arguably more) because of the back problems. Cheers 99.226.210.253 (talk) 22:09, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There's stuff related to that peppered throughout the article; see, e.g., the section "1992–1997: Cancer, return, and retirement". —Bill Price (nyb) 22:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Stats table
Format's worse than the piss i took tuesday —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.163.153.169 (talk) 23:32, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

"Sir" in introduction
On what basis does "Sir" appear in front of Lemieux's name? As far as I know, neither the Order of Canada nor the National Order of Quebec follow this convention. -- I eat BC Fish (talk) 00:49, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I have reverted the apparent test edit. Thanks for drawing attention to this. isaacl (talk) 03:37, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

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GOAT Discussion
It is well documented that Mario considered the Best player of all time by Bobby Orr, and Wayne Gretzky also agrees Mario with his size lifted the game to its greatest level for a period.

Neither Bobby Orr nor Mario Lemieux have said that about Gretzky. Nor has Mario said that about Bobby Orr.

Most hockey people consider Orr, Lemieux, Gretzky as the best 3 of all time. Hence the Opinion as offered or not offered by these 3 is most relevant in any discussion of the Greatest of all time.

It was almost embarrassing sometimes watching Lemieux as he often seemed not to try or totally off his game. Once, being such a great fan of his, I felt like hiding in a corner when Lemieux was playing terrible and was acting like Gretzky with his back to the boards behind the other teams net looking to pass. He had nobody to pass to, fell back to the boards girating his stick back and forth and put his hands in the air pretending he scored. Cringeworthy ahh. Where could I hide. He never even shot the puck, passed or anything and he is waving like he scored and won the cup.

The announcer was speechless, commented, well, he has his hands in the air, don’t know why.

The Referree gingerly skates by Mario, Mario motions that the ref should look in the net. He tugs at the net, and points to centre ice, signifying a goal.

Commentator shows the replay and says, well that’s about the fastest hand stick movement I ever did see, goal.

Mario the Magician, Magnifique, the GOAT.

Early Years, Memorial Cup points
The Early Years section states that Lemieux had 2 goals and 3 assists in the 1984 Memorial Cup but the Career Statistics section lists 1 goal and 2 assists. Elite Prospects (here: https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/m-cup/stats/1983-1984) says 1 goal and 2 assists. However, the citation in the Early Years section (available in archive.org) says 0 points in the first game, 1 goal in the second game (Lemieux may have had an assist or more as well, the citation does not say) and 1 goal, 2 assists in the third game. Does anybody have a source that shows which is correct? Sxg169 (talk) 19:45, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Each of the 5 situations? Only 5?
Full-Strength, even-strength, power play, short-handed, Empty net, awarded goal, penalty shot. Those eight are off the top of my head. There are 11 on the page referenced in the link, although "own goal" doesn't count because it is recorded as an awarded goal to the last player of scoring team to have touched the puck. 112.210.164.232 (talk) 05:05, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mario Lemieux


text:
Talk:History of Vilnius/Archive 1

"Return" to Poland
I'm not a big specialist in history, so I have only a single comment - "on 1922 February 20 the whole area returned to Poland" seems not very correct to me as Vilnius was never part of Poland, so it cannot be returned, I suggest change it to "on 1922 February 20 the whole area connected to Poland" or something similar. Knutux 05:53, 2005 Apr 9 (UTC)

 * Thanks. I think that change is obvious, and "returned" seems very biased (although one could argue why "return" is used here). "Connected" seems much better. Lysy 09:16, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Technically speaking, the city was a part of Poland between the May Constitution of Poland of 1791 and the partitions and then again it was controlled by Poland in 1919. That's why the term "returned" is not that absurd. Halibutt 11:11, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * It's not absurd, but it's neglecting Lithuanian POV, and IMO unnecessarily controversial. Without the additional explanation it could be not understood correctly (i.e. the assuption that PLC equals "Poland"). Would you agree ? Lysy 11:25, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Archaeology"
Hi, I would suggest to modify first sentence. The problem is that there were sure Russians or Slavs living in Vilnius for a long time, and this is indicated by archeological evidence and written sources. However Slav population was mainly mercants and there written sources indicating that Jews lived in the city as well. So the sentence "The area of present Vilnius has been inhabited by Slavs and then Lithuanians for centuries" is implying that slavs lived in Vilnius from the time unknown and at the certain point in history Lithuanians came into area. As there are no ways to prove who came to the city first I would suggest to indicate the facts here only. And these are: there are archeological evidences indicating Slavs living there in its early history. So my suggestion would be "The area of present Vilnius has been inhabited by people of various cultures in early history (or prehistory?) of Vilnius, including Slavs, which is proven by numerous archaeological findings in different parts of the city. Dirgela 05:59, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This sounds fair to me. Lysy 09:19, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * In Talk:Vilnius Halibutt proposed:
 * The area of present Vilnius has been inhabited since early Middle Ages as is proven by numerous archaeological findings in different parts of the city. Initially a Baltic settlement, it was also inhabitated by Slavs and, since at least 11th century, by Jews. Some historians identify the city with Voruta, a forgotten capital of the King Mindaugas.
 * I think I like his way of putting it better, as it clearly implies that Balts were the first. (Is it true or only a supposition again, anyway ?) Lysy 10:49, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Halibutt's proposal seems pretty balanced for me. Generally it should be true that Balts were there before Slavs as Slavs moved into Eastern Europe in 5th-7th century, before the territories in nowadays Lithuania and Belorussia were inhabited by people usually associated with Balts. So, even if I am not sure that initial settlement in Vilnius was baltic, to say that area was inhabited by balts is true.Dirgela 11:19, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Good, then I'm going to change it in our article in line with Halibutt until anyone has better ideas :-) Lysy 19:42, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * One more remark: "Vilnius itself was probably established as a village by Gediminas, Duke of Lithuania in the beginning on 14th century." According to archeology, the settlement was there long before Gediminas, and there are even speculations that it was an important place in Mindaugas time. There is a tradition to say that Gediminas made Vilnius capital city, at least his letters are signed there. So it would be better to write that "Vilnius itself was probably made capital city of Lithuania by Gediminas, Duke of Lithuania in the beginning on 14th century." or something similar. Dirgela 16:02, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I've changed it as you propose. I also think we can hopefully come back to Talk:Vilnius, where the changes agreed here has been already incorporated into Vilnius article by User:Refdoc. Many thanks everyone Lysy 16:49, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I think I'll move the contents of this page as a stub under History of Vilnius where it can hopefully be further developed. Lysy 16:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Castle or village?
I also do not like this sentence in the second paragraph:

 * "Vilnius itself was probably established as a village by Gediminas, Duke of Lithuania in the beginning on 14th century."

I think it was a wooden castle not a village that Gediminas built, and the village that developed around it had not much relevance to the later town. Therefore I would remove the sentence above altogether, and move the second sentence ("It was granted city rights by Wladislaus II of Poland in 1387.") to the fourth paragraph. Lysy 20:03, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Addressing Dirgela's remarks

 * moved from Talk:Vilnius

 * Let's start the work on the sections mentioned by Dirgela then. For instance:

 * 1 (First point moved to a section above in order to avoid duplicate discussion)

 * 2 During the World War I Wilna was occupied by Germany from 1915 until 1918. On February 16, 1918 in Vilnius The Restoration of Independence of Lithuania was proclaimed. After withdrawal of German forces the city was seized on January 1, 1919 by Polish self-defence units recruited from the local population. The institutions of the state were established but very soon, on January 3 1919 the city was taken by Bolshevik forces advancing from the east and proclaimed the capital of the short-lived Soviet Socialist Republic of Lithuania and Belarus. On April 19, 1919 the city was seized by the Polish Army but on July 14 it was lost again to Soviet forces.  into
 * During the World War I Wilna was occupied by Germany from 1915 until 1918. On February 16, 1918 the Restoration of Independence of Lithuania was proclaimed and the city became the capital of the newly-born Republic of Lithuania. However, after the withdrawal of German garrison on January 1, 1919, the city was seized by Polish militias recruited from local inhabitants. Both Lithuanian and Polish administration was established in the city, but on January 3, 1919, the city was taken by Bolshevik forces advancing from the east. The city was proclaimed the capital of the short-lived Soviet Socialist Republic of Lithuania and Belarus and the Lithuanians were pushed back. However, in March of the same year the Lithuanian and German forces managed to sweep most of the country of the Red forces and on April 19, 1919, the city was seized by regular forces of the Polish Army. This started an open dispute over the city, claimed by both Poland and Lithuania. Piłsudski proposed creation of a Polish-Lithuanian federation, but this was refused by the Lithuanian government. Finally, the Highest Council of the Paris Peace Conference accepted the so-called Foch Line as the basis for the future Polish-Lithuanian border, leaving Wilno on the Polish side. However, the situation changed yet again on July 14, when the city was again lost to the Red Army.
 * A few questions here:
 * What was the role of the Lithuanian administration in Vilnius in 1918/1919 ?
 * What does it mean that "Lithuanians were push back" by Bolsheviks in the beginning of 1919 ? Were there any Lithuanian-Soviet fights to defend the city in January ?
 * Lysy 18:09, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * 3 Shortly after the defeat in the Battle of Warsaw in 1920, the withdrawing Red Army handed the city over to the newly reborn Lithuania. However, on October 9, 1920 the the Lithuanian-Belarusian Division of the Polish Army under General Lucjan Żeligowski seized the city after a staged mutiny. The city and its surroundings were proclaimed a separate state of Central Lithuania and, after free parliamentary elections, in a result of the decision of Central Lithuanian Parliament, on February 20 1922 the whole area returned to Poland, with Wilno becoming the capital of the Wilno Voivodship, which was also soon approved by the Conference of Ambassadors of the League of Nations. into two paragraphs. I'd like to make them shorter, but apparently the situation needs more in-depth description.
 * In July of 1919 the government of Lithuania joined the Bolsheviks in their war against Poland, hoping to retake the city that was considered its capital. Although the Soviets officially recognized the government of Soviet Socialist Republic of Lithuania and Belarus and not the Republic of Lithuania, after the Russian defeat in the Battle of Warsaw in August put an end to the existance of the earlier state. Lenin decided to hand over the city to the Lithuanian authorities who yet again established there the capital of Lithuania. However, the Lithuanians also seized the region of Suwałki, which led to a short Polish-Lithuanian War. The Polish forces managed to retake Suwałki and on October 7 a cease-fire agreement was signed, but it did not solve the issue. The negotiations of the future of the city carried out in Paris came to a stalemate after the Lithuanian diplomats declined to discuss the status of the Vilnius area and denied any Polish influence over it whatsoever. Polish commander and the head of state Józef Piłsudski, fearing that the Conference of Ambassadors might accept the Lithuanian claims and grant the city to Lithuania, ordered his subordinate General Lucjan Żeligowski to stage a mutiny of his Lithuanian-Belarusian Division'' and seize the city by force.
 * Did Piłsudski really give such orders, or was he simply silently approving Żeligowski's actions ? Lysy
 * On October 9, 1920, after short skirmishes, the Lithuanian forces were pushed out of the city and soon afterwards Żeligowski proclaimed both the city and its surroundings Republic of Central Lithuania. Extensive diplomatic negotiations on the future of the city were continued in Paris, but neither Poland nor Lithuania was willing to accept any compromise. Finally the parliamentary elections were held in new-born state. The elections, boycotted by the Lithuanian minority, were won by pro-Polish parties and on February 20, 1922, the whole area returned to Poland. Wilno became the capital of the Wilno Voivodship, and the situation was approved by the Conference of Ambassadors of the League of Nations soon afterwards.
 * This seems fair to me. As we may be writing not only the subsection of the Vilnius article, but maybe the longer article in History of Vilnius, I don't think we need to be expectionally terse here. Lysy 18:11, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * 4 Wilno was liberated in July 1944 by Polish Home Army together with the Red Army, only to be shortly afterwards incorporated into Soviet Union again. would it seem better if I wrote:
 * Wilno was liberated in July 1944 by joint operation of the Red Army and the Polish Home Army, only to be shortly afterwards incorporated into Soviet Union again.?

 * It sounds rather strange to me. Red Army is not known for its joint operation with AK, unless they meant 'invite'em and shoot'em' kind of joint op. The above sentence creats an illusion (?) of extensive cooperation. I don't think it is correct - but as I know next to nothing about those events, I will just register this as a comment, not an objection.

 * I also don't like this. Probably a reference to Operation Ostra Brama could help sorting it out. Mayby simply: Wilno was liberated in July 1944 by Polish Home Army (see Wilno Uprising) together with the Red Army, only to be shortly afterwards incorporated into Soviet Union again. ? I don't think we could indeed call this "joint operation", maybe "attempted co-opertation", but I'm not sure whether there was any cooperation planned at all ? :::Anyway, I've read some accounts of Lithuanians living at that time in Vilnius, and they remembered that it was Home Army that was first to clear the town of Germans, only later the Red Army came. (It also should be noted that the same witness remembered the Home Army murdering Lithuanian civilians in Vilnius). Lysy 12:58, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Periphery"

 * As to the claim that Wilno was a peripheral city... I don't know what made you think that. Certainly it was not the capital of Poland, but it was the sixth biggest city, the capital of one of the voivodships and one of the most important centres of Poland. The university created there was considered one of the most prestigious in Poland (after Cracow, Warsaw and perhaps Poznań). Wilno was also the mecca of artists, for instance most of the notable Polish photo artists either originated from Wilno or moved there. Lots of new institutions and facilities were built there in the 1920's and 1930's - and so on, and so forth. Please explain why do you consider Wilno a second-rate city and we could try to discuss it.

 * Finally, as to expulsions... I believe the matter is too complex to be explained in just one sentence. We'd have to link the word to a separate article on the post-war Soviet expulsion of Poles. Halibutt 05:55, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * I think Dirgela means not only city but Vilnius Voivode at all. In comparison to other parts of Lithuania or Poland it had weak, hardly agricultural economic base. It can be felt even today: despite of Vilnius is capital, a lot of territories belonging to it still have weak agricultural base. --213.197.137.20 08:44, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I believe the cty was very important - the major city of the north-east Poland, and as Halibutt writes, the 6th biggest (with its own university, etc.). On the other hand, as anon points out, the entire eastern Region (Kresy) was rather undeveloped compared to western Poland (note the division into Poland A and Poland B). IIRC didn't Eugeniusz Kwiatkowski plan to 'reunite' economically those two as a next 5 year plan from mid 40s after miitary industry development would be done?. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:22, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, if we take into consideration the areas surrounding the cities and not the cities themselves, then most of Poland was "peripheral". Apart from all Kresy it would also apply to Kraków, Lublin, Białystok, Lwów and most other major cities. However, I believe we should focus on the city's history here and not the rural areas. 70 or so percent of Polish population before the war lived in rural areas, so we could simply say that the whole country was peripheral. Halibutt 11:32, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * I was not trying to call Vilnius second-rate city, however the wording in the article implies that it started to flourish after it was included into Poland. It probably needs more explanation - was Vilnius developing better comparing to other part of Poland, neighboring territories (like Lithuania). Lithuanian historiography often mentions, that the border between Lithuania and Poland after 1920 was artificial in the sense that it cut territories, which economically were bounded with Vilnius before the war. That, together with agricultural background of the region had negative effect on city's economical life. I not good enough in these matters to try to defend that position, but maybe it is possible to separate economical and cultural issues there? Dirgela 11:35, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Perhaps the economical situation of the city worsened, though I would seriously doubt it. I'm not that much of an economics buff to tell, but I guess it could be easily checked. We could also check other factors that usually are behind the economical prosperity: population growth, industry/commerce, taxation, house construction, railway network development, income... lots of factors really. The main problem would be that we're going to compare pre-WWI and post-WWI situation, that was completely different.

 * Anyway, when I wrote that the city was developing rapidly, I meant mostly the "cultural" growth. The situation of the Poles living there under Tsarist regime was incomparable to that of a Polish city after the wars: Polish language was no longer banned from the office, a university was restored, theatres and cinemas opened, zillions of associations, previously banned, were officially started and so on. Also the number of inhabitants grew significantly, from 140.000 in 1916 to over 200.000 in 1939, despite being captured by various armies... some 8 times in a row. This cannot be compared with the growth of Warsaw, Lwów or other heavily-industrialised cities like Gdynia, Łódź or Katowice, but seems quite comparable to other cities of similar economical structure. Białystok (roughly 70.000 before WWI, 109.000 in 1939), Radom (51.934 inhabitants in 1911, 90.059 in 1938), Sosnowiec (98.748 in 1911, 129.610 in 1939), Lublin (50.000 in 1897, 130.000 in 1939) and so on. Halibutt 14:59, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't have any firm data at hand but don't forget that Wilna was an informal capital of Yiddish at that time (very interesting description of Jewish situation in the 1920s can be found in "Reise in Polen" by Alfred Döblin). Museum of Jewish culture was founded there in 1919; YIVO (Institute for Research of Jewish Language and Culture) in 1924. There were many Jewish theatres, newspapers and magazines, museums and schools, Jewish PEN-Club. This should not be totally neglected in the description of situation in the town before II World War. Lysy 20:23, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Some information (but still no data) on economy before II World War: The area of city grew considerable (several suburbs were included in the city). Population grew, as Halibutt mentioned, but the quick growth of cities population was quite common in Poland at that time, so there's probably nothing exceptional here. The number of shops and industrial facilities increased significantly (again no figures). Major industries that developed in town in that time: so called "light industry", electrotechnical, wood and building materials, food. Obviously agriculture and trade played an important role in the economy. Public bus transportation was opened in 1926. But again, there's no doubt that first of all the city fluorished culturally. Lysy 20:37, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

English language issues
I really like the way the discussion is going above. I find it far less stressful to watch rational discussion than edit wars and name-calling! I also like how the article seems to be being worded, with armies seizing the city, rather than invading or liberating (except for cases where the use is obviously justified).

 * "Invading" and "liberating" would be better for the style, but NPOV would suffer ... Lysy

I have a few non-NPOV-related editorial comments.

"of the King Mindaugas" should be "of King Mindaugas". If "King" is used as part of someone's title, it is capitalized but without the definite article. If you were referring in general to the king, who happened to be Mindaugas, you could also use "of the king, Mindaugas".

 * I think this is so obvious that I've corrected it without waiting for any forther discussion. (I also changed the name of the first section, which seemed inadequate). Thanks. Lysy

"houling" -> "howling"

 * Corrected. Lysy

The sentence: ''... he must build a castle ... and a grand city around that hill, so that "the iron-wolf-like sound about this great city would spread around the world".'' sounds awkward, but I don't know how to fix it. In Lithuanian, the word "garsas" means "sound", but when used in a figurative sense, such as about a city, the English equivalent is "fame". But if you use two separate words for the sound of the wolf's howling that was heard around the world, and the fame of the city that would spread around the world, then the parallel is not so obvious.

 * Is it possible that this tale is translated into English somewhere ? I have three books with Vilnian tales, but all of them in Polish. Interestingly, according to them Lizdeika, after explaining the dream took his new name, which was "Radziwill" ("radzi" = "advises" in Polish). Lysy 17:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The sentence: So Gediminas somehow turned pagan Lithuania back to Mindaugas pro-Western and Christian Europe establishing a capital in the former capital place though forging the original name to Vilnius. is extremely unclear, and I have no idea of what is meant by "forging the original name to Vilnius." Does it mean that he changed the name of the settlement that was there to the new name "Vilnius"? Is there any evidence that this was "the former capital place"?

 * Neither I have any idea what this was supposed to mean. Lysy

"Aušros Vartai gate (also known as Medininkų Gate or Ostra Brama)": "Aušra" means "Dawn" (i.e. when the sun comes up), so "Aušros Vartai" literally means the gates of dawn. (Was it the eastern city gate, perhaps?) I'm surprised that this isn't translated anywhere in either this page or the page about Aušros Vartai.

 * I think the usual English name for it is "Gate of Dawn". Probably it would be best to refer to it as Gate of Dawn (Lithuanian: Aušros Vartai, Polish: Ostra brama). I would also suggest to move the Aušros Vartai article to the English name. Lysy 17:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also, wasn't there a miracle associated with Aušros Vartai? Maybe I'm mixing this up with something else (and I don't have time to look it up at the moment), but I thought there was something about a Russian army being stopped at that gate by Mary.~

 * You may be thinink of Holy Mother stopping Bolsheviks at Vistula in 1920. But I'm not sure whether it was connected to Ostra Brama. Lysy 17:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The name of the city changes throughout the article, between Vilnius and Wilno and Wilna, without notice. If this is not just sloppy editing, it would be helpful to write something like "The city, now known as Wilno, ...", or "Vilnius, whose official name had been changed to Wilna, ...". My wording is not very good either (pretty bad, actually), but I think you need something to make smoother the transition from using one name in one paragraph to using a different name in the next paragraph.

 * I think this follows the awkward convention assumed afted discussion and voting on Gdansk/Danzig naming. You're right that it could be smoothed, still. Lysy

"over the Eastern Lithuania":
 * The definite article "the" should not be there.
 * It might be more NPOV to refer to "the Vinius region", rather than "Eastern Lithuania", unless maybe you wanted to put it in quotes, or say something like "what it considered as Eastern Lithuania".

 * I certainly would welcome this change, as more NPOV. Lysy 17:39, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, I visited Vinius for about a week last year, and it is indeed truly amazing how the city has been transformed "from a Soviet into a European city in less than 10 years."

Ifdef 12:54, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Good for you. I plan to visit Lithuania, Vilnius included, soon :-) Lysy

Refdoc's changes
Hi I come late to the discussion. As some of you have seen I had a lengthy discussion with the multinamed fellow on the Vilnius talk pages. I think he has raised a number of valid points. Knowing next to nothing about Lithuanian history I am the wrong person to adress the issues, but I think they are worth exploring:

1. town area settled since Mesolithic times (highly likely - all strategic useful areas had some settlement some time orther, teh quetsion is probably more since when has a settlement become permanent. But even if not permanent it is a factum worth including.

 * I'm not sure whether the word "continuosly" is appropriate here. Maybe it is. I just don't know. Anyone ? Lysy

2. Naming of grand-dukes/polish kings - I think there is a good case to use/mention the Lithuanian names (Jogaila, Žygimantas Senasis, Steponas Batoras)

 * Why not use English names ? If you think that using Lithuanian names is justified, than why not using Polish names along ? I think it's not neutral in English wikipedia. Lysy

3. He is quite upset about the notion of Lithuania/Vilnius being liberated by AK and Red Army, but feels this is just a transition from one bad thing to another. I woudl agree that this is one way of looking at it. The word liberation is certainly not the best choice under the circumstances and certainly not NPOV. Refdoc 22:35, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I think it's not NPOV. Lysy

Ooops
Hi I just realised I might have misunderstood your invitation to this page. I just went ahead and edited the whole lot, partially incorporating some of th e stuff I said above, and paretially improving the English. Revert me if you are unhappy, it is your page here.

 * No, I don't consider it "mine" at all, just a more peaceful place to hold and develop it. I think we're all trying to be quite cautious now. Frankly, I don't know what to do with your changes. Some are obvious, some other are disputable. Some are wrong IMHO, e.g. changed "liberation" to "occupation" by AK, but you're German, right ? ;-) (pardon my humour). Lysy 23:56, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I have tried to choose military terms for all armies rather than chosing more emotive terms . Refdoc 00:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Furtehr characterising the elctions to the parliament in 1919 as free and as a fact while the town is occupied by Polnish troups is surely POV. I have started a subpage Talk:Vilnius/a new attempt where I try to engage the other guy, maybe we can move things slowly back to tehre. Wikipedia actually discourages what we are doing here.

Refdoc 23:08, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, we're just trying to reach consensus. It's not a secret page - I've announced it on Talk:Vilnius. And I think we have quite balanced number of active "Polish" and "Lithuanian" people active in this discussion here. Lysy 00:00, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * On the second thought, I think I'll revert your changes other than the English language ones and just note them as propositions to be discussed. I don't feel we're this far yet. But go ahead with your attempt with unlocking the Vilnius page. Maybe it'll work out. Lysy 00:05, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree with your exchange from "occupied" to "seized" Refdoc 00:15, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Good. Even leaving Polish POV aside, I think one could hardly call it occupation by AK, given that most of the surviving citizens in the town at that time were Poles. "Seized" seems neutral. Lysy 00:21, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:History of Vilnius/Archive 1


text:
Talk:Brett Lindros

Why does this person have an article?
Is he notable because he's the brother of someone famous and successful? Because he sure isn't notable on his own. Vytal (talk) 05:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * 51 NHL games..........  PK T (alk)  17:21, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Brett Lindros