text:
Talk:Machado de Assis

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:04, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of Dom Casmurro section
It is unclear why this is placed on the biography page, unless someone is trying to claim that this is his 'best' or most popular novel; however, it is especially farcical given that the information about the book is factually incorrrect. Tsop 13:54, 13 January 2007 (UTC) On second thoughts, the first paragraph contains biographical information, so I have left that and deleted the subsequent paras. Tsop 13:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Why suppress the comment about Machado de Assis (MA) poetry ? Ok, it was too short to be useful, but it is a long lasting trend among researchers to consider MA's poetry irrelevant, not to mention of bad taste.

--Hgfernan 22:39, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Black" writer
 Harold Bloom calls him the greatest black writer in the history of western literature

Can someone provide a source for this? I am curious about whether that's how Bloom phrased it, since, as is explained in the opening sentence of the "Life" section, Machado de Assis wasn't really black by any definition other than a very narrow-minded, typically United-Statian perspective (and I don't say this as an attack on USians, but it seems to me that only in the US would someone like him ever be considered black). -- tmegapscm 2005-08-12

It would be too exagerated to call him black, but in Brazil he is widely reagarded as a mulatto of the low-middle classes. What is interesting is that in Brazil his skin colour is seldom, if ever, remembered in academy as a black writes in our Cultural Studies. I will later expand the coments of his style, Machado de Assis is not so much attached to Zola, but intensely close to Sterne and his English contemporaries.

-

I think the comment should be put back in because, even he not being black, it is interesting to know the opinion of orlando bloom, even if somewhat a wrong one, because in the US they have a different definition of "black". I remember something about Woody Allen too, if not on this page, on the Bras Cubas one, but it dissapeared, why?

 * "Orlando" Bloom? That's Legolas, I think you mean Harold Bloom! =) 201.81.252.13 23:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Machado de Assis died as a white men because he became a important person during slave age in Brazil, and it included close relantionship with the emperor.

He is not even a Mulatto, but a Quadroon because he is the son of a Mulatto father and a Portuguese mother. So it would not be right to label him as Black when he is not even majority African in ancestry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BrazilianGuido (talk • contribs) 05:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

--Ricardo 23:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

We could say, "forget about his color and let's focus on his achievement." But there is a general fashion now to glorify the capabilities of anyone who is of Negro descent. Therefore, unfortunately, his race is a pertinent issue because today it may influence any judgment regarding his writing.Lestrade (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

 * In Brazil there's no such thing as someone being labeled "black" just because it has ancestors of African-American origin. There's no such thing as hypodescending rule because there are no races considered "dominant" nor "subordinate". There's no "one drop blood" rule.

 * For any means, Machado de Assis is more superficially white than black, since he was what they call a quadroon. I live in Brazil and I never saw a scientist, teacher or Literature authority refering to him as a "black writer". Machado was and will ever be one of the most important Brazilian writers of all time, no matter how much foreign people try to classify him according to an obscure system of belief that tends to overprotects and recognize someone's talent based only on color of skin issues.

 * He wasn't very good writer because he is "black" according to European or American standarts! He wasn't black at all, but, surely, he was a very good writer. --Δ Mr. Nighttime Δ (talk) 11:03, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

 * In Brazil, is there a difference between calling people black and calling them Afro-Brazilian? Would the latter term be more widely accepted for Machado? Aristophanes68 (talk) 14:43, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

 * He was not to be labeled Afro-Brazilian since he was not a full bloodied Brazilian of African ancestry. Instead, he was a quadroon and is more accurate to address him as a Euro-Brazilian than Afro-Brazilian.

 * Machado never said that he was a "black writer". Labelling him as "black" or "white" means that someone's trying to expropriate his legacy in benefit of petty racial issues that has nothing to do with his heritage to Brazilian culture. --Δ Mr. Nighttime Δ (talk) 11:12, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Can you define "full blooded Brazilian of African ancestry"? I'm not sure if that means "fully black but from Brazil" or if it means "both parents were Brazilian but at least one had African ancestry". I appreciate your point about using the terms "Euro-Brazilian', based on the % of African ancestry, but I think it's rather naive to say that racial issues are "petty" or to imply that calling him "black" or "Afro-Brazilian" somehow diminishes his "heritage to Brazilian culture." Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:36, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Bloom's definition is imbecile. Only in the US are there such prejudices as he expounds. Machado de Assis is a Brazilian writer, PERIOD. There's no such sub-group in Brazilian society as "blacks" or "African-Brazilians" or so. Much the same happens in Italy, my country. To imply that Italians with a dark skin must be something to do with people with a dark skin in other countries, apart from skin similarity, means thinking race (skin color) is more important than ethnicity (or indeed any other feature) in defining an individual. To test the stupidity of doing so you only have to change "black" into "red-haired", "hairy" or "tall and skinny" in Bloom's sentence. It immediately sounds weird. The reason? Red hair, hairiness and a tall, skinny complexion are not linked to any sub-group in the US society. Pan Brerus (talk) 19:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

The very essence of Harold Bloom's statement is racist. He is separating black writers from white writers, because he doesn't think black writers are as good. So, you know, you are the best... of your lesser race. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.154.49.18 (talk) 19:52, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

 * So, state that an author "x" are the best from one group is racism with this group? For example: say that Shaekspeare are the best English author is "because I don't think that English author are good"? Say that authoress "X" are the best woman author is an indicative that I don't believe that woman's are good writers?... Machado de Assis is a black author, that's the truth and during his life and death the society tried to whitewash him. Erick Soares3 (talk) 13:21, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * He is the best author from Brazil and acknowledge that he was a black person really create an model for black people in the country. They feel represented.Erick Soares3 (talk) 13:27, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

IPA Transcription of name
Is there any particular justification for the dialect that's represented in the IPA transcription that's used here? It seems to me to represent a pretty strongly continental dialect of Portuguese. Also, isn't it  ɐs'iʃ rather than 'ɐsiʃ ? --babbage 08:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I have changed the transcription to amore modern Carioca one. Macgreco 13:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Expansion
At least some information on his major works should be included, instead of focusing exclusively on Dom Casmurro. Someone more knowledgeable on literature should add something on style, period, etc.Macgreco 13:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

JohnManuel
JohnManuel, feel free to add the photo if it satisfies Wikipedia guidelines. Be careful with your other edits, however, most of which introduce grammatical errors and/or are tendentious. --Jbmurray 21:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

JBmurray
I do not enjoy the time that you seem to have and enjoying under or over your hands: the photo was and is in commons, now why you revert my efforts to put the photo?, that has cost time, to first uploaded and second coded into the page. is the way that you show respect or I am your punching bag? Why you call my username? Are you want to attack me personally? that is your real intention? Please, you have been warm once. You have been giving enough time to reflect on your misdeeds or mistakes. Now I asking politely to change your behavior, I have assuming good faith, and I never dare to change they way you feel or think, but if you are doing this for hidden reasons and far from the aims, policies and the mission of Wikipedia; you will soon find out that you won't past the test of time, and as many friends that you might have around here, it will be many users that believe in this project, and besides of respecting the policies they have the official power to enforce them when the case requires to do so, as you know very well. I am asking you not to delete anything without consensus. Meaning if you see a photo, doubt about it but ask first before to take it out because only it is from your favorite antagonist JohnManuel, the one that is doing what you think you should be doing in the first palce and in the way that fit your interpretations. I don't mind your editions, I am looking for all of them, but only if they do not erase important facts and respect the semantics of the content intended. But let us analyze a bit, as we should:

 * The Photo depicts clearly the fact that Machado was a mulatto,

 * Have you heard that word before? If you are using the word Black, in instead of afro-Brazilian or afro-American, why no use an English word created to specify what Mr. Machado de Assis really was in terms of his race? even better, is we are not interested to be precise or at to the point, lets that alone and no mention nothing about his race at all.

 * May be you are from mars, but the English version of Wikipedia, is read by many English speakers, those from Africa, Australia, England (OxfBrige they say that it is the best English flavor of them all)Ireland, Scotland, should I continue? You are editing for all of them, no for you little professor, teacher or town. Perhaps you are an exacerbated creationist, and from the schools you need to put all who teach Darwinism under your feet? Consider if the word exist and in use in other countries. Wikipedia as English are universal, i.e. both need to express an universal understanding: No mine, no yours, neither an American, if not represent the universal concepts in the most neutral way. So those things that has been written: "...in that region they consider this or that." do not apply if we are no applying or including other point of view as well. It is better no apply neither them. As you have revised some history, American culture is based and assembled from many cultures. Incidentally, an encyclopedia is not about those cultures, it it about knowledge about but exempt from cultures or superstitions.

 * Now, there are many similar projects than this one, for instance, "Enciclopedia Libre" o El, the founder departed from this encyclopedia, because the attitude of many people, they wrote within other principles: "There is any culture better than others", now do you believe in this, and if you don't believe in this, can you articulate why you don't? I hope you are no a racist or a self-loathing individual, but in case you were, could you be intrepid enough to let us know? I don't think so. But even if you were one of those supremacists it doesn't eliminate your right to be in Wikipedia to the extend that you don't imposed your POVs.

 * I even applauded your stamina and enthusiasm, but your lack of empathy and concern for the effort of others or the way that you are calling names all over the discussion pages, What is that? seems to be based on erroneous assumptions. I don't mind that you are spending your time editing. I mind the way you are dealing with other people's contributions, you are treating others as you were the non plus ultra, which as far as I know in Wikipedia there are none or very very few of them.

 * Please let no call usernames on entries' discussion pages, for shedding light in somebody else's mistakes and highlighting your "enormous" contributions and efforts. Those are inflammatory personal attacks, and you know it.

 * There is another case you are doing this to provoke discussions or edit wars which is shameful, and because you have a lot o time then you want to make others waste theirs. If that is the case, I have already warm you, at you user talk page, and that was my last.

A Map for Collaboration
In conclusion, having writing what I have wrote for the user jbmurray, I think that out of you obstinate posture we can build a collaborative effort, for seeking a consensus and to be in consensus there is a need for different opinions, for once we have differences, even our idiosyncrasies could be opposite, but this I started to doubt it, I see them compatible to the extent in which we can sustain an open dialog in which learning and improving the Wikipedia shall be the primary objective. However, lets finish this at once, I don't have time and you as I, want to enjoy the Wikipedia. Here the objectives for this particular case and could serve as a model for other editing interactions:

 * I going to fix one thing a the time.
 * Before you change it, if you thing that should be change you write a small sentence what and why you think it should be changed.
 * Perhaps your changes will be sound solid enough and I will accept them all, but
 * In case I do not accept your changes then, we look for a third party opinion or more and we seek for consensus beyond us
 * Regardless, who, the consensus, no cabal, will rule and should be accepted by both, even more we leave the case to the consensus and continue working in other issues.

Then as practicing, I would take my time again and I will put that photo back in some place in this page, you perhaps want to probe it: Is this photo following the licensing? or is this photo depicting the person, in this case Machado? and so and so on and everything you want to know and that you might want to consider a threat no for you views but for the content verifiability and neutrality. Then before you acting you will consult in this discussion page your views and your arguments if any, without, please mentioning names, depersonalizing the content, you shall explain that you would like to intent to do this or that or even nothing, i.e. that is OK that is nothing and we should move to the next edition or moving to collaborate to other topic for a while, giving it a rest, it is also useful.

If you do this this time, you will do it for the rest of the times, as I do it now, when I see that there are so many things in doubt or need to be referenced or changed in a page. I go to explain it into its discussion page.

I believe, if we do this we will be able to produce much more in no time, I am not imposing, I am sharing this view because I want you to know I have nothing personal against you or anybody, however we need to coordinate and we need to put our eyes entirely in the tasks ahead.

'''Lastly, I am preparing a very interesting project, in which I think you would like to be involved with, because it deals with a very important subject, which have not been documented until now in Wikipedia, even I have the fear that anybody will do so at any time. It is current, involves the past and it is scientific and has been published by authorized sources. We need multimedia capabilities, maps, diagrams, tables, photos, geographical information. I am dropping this in here because time constrains. Well let me know what do you think.'' I will drop a short notice at your talk page, so lets go to ramble...! John Manuel -"-Todos Llegan de Noche, todos se van de día" 21:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

 * JohnManuel, I have absolutely nothing against the photo you posted, which I agree is an improvement. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

 * And as for all the rest, I have very little idea what you're talking about. But thanks for spending the time to share your views.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

 * No. # issue: Photo of Machado de Assis has been, gladly clarified and John Manuel-"-Todos Llegan de Noche, todos se van de día" 15:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Lets Move on: second issue
This is for jbmurray, but everybody is invited to discuss this issue.

 * Before, I make some editions or changes in this page, let talk about about the word Mulatto and its differences with Black, White and Afro-American or even American-Jewish or will be Jewish-American; what do you think? What was the race of Machado de Assis, was he black or Mulato or White, Hispanic Black, a Black Portuguese? -"-Todos Llegan de Noche, todos se van de día" 01:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

 * JohnManuel, I'm not entirely sure what this is all about, but if the question is whether or not Machado was a mulatto, I'm more than happy for that word to be employed. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 02:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

 * No 2. Issue: The proper usage of the word Mulatto to identify the racial background of Machado de Assis have been gladly clarified and Thanks for your cooperaion and participation, proceeding to its incorporation into the context, after a prudent amount the time has elapsed to confirm our consensus.  John Manuel-"-Todos Llegan de Noche, todos se van de día" 15:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Third Issue
At the first introductory paragraph the reader can read this:

 * "Harold Bloom and Woody Allen are some of his admirers; Bloom calls him the greatest black writer in the history of Western literature (one should note, however, that in Brazil Machado would hardly be called black: see discussion on race in Brazil)."

I propose to convert this long sentence into or to a something similar to the one below but different than the sentence above:

 * Harold Bloom and Woody Allen are some of the admirers of Machados de Assis work or writings."

Rationale:

 * That information does not pertain to the biography of this writer
 * It produces an unnecessary fatigue to the readers: Now they have to figure it out who Harold Bloom is and so forth.
 * Introduces a discussion of race, that if far fetch from the real topic, which is about the life and work of this writer.
 * It could propel racial sentiments or evenly offend some readers, from different backgrounds, it might lead to a controversy.
 * Finally, doesn't say any thing about Machado' contributions, even more it is diverting the attention to his race or cultural differences about racial denominations among different people, that is another issue altogether and is not the primary or secondary reason for him to be mentioned or write about in this encyclopedia, and in others as well, in effect his work and his life are and should remain to be  the topics.
 * It it seems too interesting they let us create a section for it that can be trivialities or something around that meaning.

Again, Lets change this sentences to something more pertaining to this writer.

John Manuel-"-Todos Llegan de Noche, todos se van de día" 16:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

 * All issues of this page have been rationally an gladly

Romantism or realism
In the box in the right is said that Machado is a romantic writer too.The works of Machado de Assis in the romantic age don't matter to brasilian's literature at all.His great contribution to literature was in realism ,his book "Memórias póstumas de Brás Cubas" is the introducer of realism in Brasil, so is a error report Machado as a romantic writer. And nobody knows Machado de Assis as Bruxo do Cosme Velho here in his country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.19.102.9 (talk) 20:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

 * You're right! He was a realist according to several books on the subject. --Δ Mr. Nighttime Δ (talk) 11:29, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

FA in pt
See: the article in portuguese. N and O  ta lk !|undefined   02:13, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Great, greatness, greatest?
Maybe some of these great words could be stated in a slightly more diplomatic manner? It is subjective after all...95.166.219.107 (talk) 15:28, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Several major errors in this document
Please check your facts again. This article is at serious odds with the Portuguese version, and several other literary sources about Machado de Assis.

Major error I noted right off the bat:

1. Machado de Assis was in favor of the Republic, NOT the monarchy: "Ele fundou em 1860 com seu cunhado Josefino Vieira o periódico O Jequitinhonha, por meio do qual teria difundido o ideal republicano."

[Original Source: Lopes JL. "A doença de Machado de Assis". In: A Psiquiatria de Machado de Assis. Ed. Agir, 2ª Edição. Rio de Janeiro RJ 1981. Can also be found in Portuguese version]

Translation: In 1860, he founded with his brother-in-law Josefino Vieira the newspaper O Jequitinhonha, whereby he would broadcast the idea of republicanism.

The Portuguese Wiki article then goes on to describe how he was critical of the new republic when it's main focus turned to capitalism:

'Sabe-se que Machado detestava o "vale-tudo do dinheiro pelo dinheiro"'

Translation: It is known that Machado detested the "exchange of money for money."

Hope that helps set things straight.

-MA Latin American Studies graduate student, University of Kansas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.240.43 (talk) 06:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 01 June 2014

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Been listed for over two weeks and there haven't actually been any opposes. Jenks24 (talk) 17:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Joaquim Maria Machado de Assis → Machado de Assis – WP:COMMONNAME – --Relisted. Armbrust The Homunculus 09:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)  – Gabriel Yuji (talk) 19:52, 1 June 2014 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:28, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Joaquim Maria Machado de Assis → Machado de Assis  – WP:COMMONNAME – Gabriel Yuji (talk) 19:52, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
 * A WP:COMMONNAME determination essentially always needs to be determined via consensus. Contesting this solely on this rationale. Steel1943  (talk) 22:46, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
 * And in this case use of his maternal surname and paternal surname as a penname in title may not be what English sources do. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:29, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
 * And if moved, also 2 category moves :: Category:Joaquim Maria Machado de Assis → Category:Machado de Assis and Category:Novels by Joaquim Maria Machado de Assis → Category:Novels by Machado de Assis (asked as page moves by User:Vegaswikian at 20:24, 1 June 2014 (UTC)) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:31, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually I objected to the technical move since these belong at WP:CFD and not RM which is the wrong forum to discuss. The category discssions should be moved to WP:CFD. Vegaswikian (talk) 15:30, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I see. A (potentially) controversial request to move cats is rejected by Move with the error Template:Requested move is not for categories, see Categories for discussion
 * Maybe RMassist should be making the same edit check, and probably others as documented here.
 * But it would still be good to cross-link related article and category move discussions; perhaps the category moves should be contingent on consensus for the article move. Wbm1058 (talk) 12:09, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. →→→→→→→←←←←

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Recolorized picture
There has been a few removals of the recolorized picture recently, most recently by who raised original research concerns. I tried findingthe actual source of the image and found a New York Times article on the subject. The article reports that the image is from São Paulo's university Zumbi dos Palmares, which alliviates the original research concerns, but do raise concerns about it being improperly tagged on the commons. Currently it's tagged under own work, but since it wasn't originally published on the commons I believe this isn't an appropriate tag even if it's uploaded by the creator. The image is heavily implied to be free to use by the page Machado de Assis Real, but I could not find any information about the license. If anyone knows how to deal with this situation please do, but in the mean time I believe it would be appropriate to display the image in the article since the original research issues has been dealt with. Trialpears (talk) 08:07, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

 * , I asked in the Instagram page from the project for the image be released in the Wikimedia Commons (so, is their work). English page. Erick Soares3 (talk) 20:58, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Machado de Assis


text:
Tallapoosa River

The Tallapoosa River runs 265 mi from the southern end of the Appalachian Mountains in Georgia, United States, southward and westward into the Appalachian foothills in Alabama. It is formed by the confluence of McClendon Creek and Mud Creek in Paulding County, Georgia. Lake Martin at Dadeville, Alabama is a large and popular water recreation area formed by a dam on the river. The Tallapoosa joins the Coosa River about 10 mi northeast of Montgomery near Wetumpka (in Elmore County) to form the Alabama River.

There are four hydroelectric dams on the Tallapoosa: Yates, Thurlow, Martin and Harris dams. They are important sources of electricity generation for Alabama Power (a unit of the Southern Company) and recreation for the public.

Description
The Tallapoosa River, especially its lower course, was a major population center of the Creek Indians before the early 19th century. The contemporary name of the river is from the Creek words Talwa posa, which mean "Grandmother Town". The Creek consider the Tallapoosa branch of their tribe to be one of the oldest.

Horseshoe Bend National Military Park, a U.S. National Military Park managed by the National Park Service, is located along the banks of the Tallapoosa River just upstream from Lake Martin. It preserves a battle site associated with the Creek War.

The river below Thurlow Dam provides a short run of outstanding Class II, III and IV whitewater kayaking.

Tallapoosa, Georgia is named for the river, which runs near the town.

Impoundments
The first hydroelectric dam in Alabama was built on the Tallapoosa River in 1902, by Henry C. Jones, an Auburn University electrical engineer, at the site of the current Yates Dam. It was destroyed in the flood of 1919 but rebuilt. The dam then belonged to the Montgomery Light & Water Power Company. In 1928 it was replaced by the Yates Dam.

There are four hydroelectric dams on the Tallapoosa River: Yates Dam, Thurlow Dam, Martin Dam, and R.L. Harris Dam.

The table below outlines the four impoundments (dams) on the Tallapoosa River from south to north.

Significant tributaries
The Tallapoosa River's drainage has many significant tributaries which reflected below based on their location within the watershed.

Advocates
The Coosa-Alabama River Improvement Association, founded in 1890 in Gadsden, Alabama to promote navigation on the Coosa River is a leading advocate of the economic, recreational and environmental benefits of the Coosa and Tallapoosa River systems.

The Alabama Rivers Alliance works to unite the citizens of Alabama to protect peoples right to clean, healthy, waters.

Alabama Water Watch is dedicated to volunteer citizen monitoring of water quality in Alabama Rivers.

The Alabama Power Foundation is a non-profit foundation providing grants for watershed, environmental and community projects along the Tallapoosa River and within the state of Alabama

The Coosa River Basin Initiative is a grassroots environmental organization with the mission of informing and empowering citizens so that they may become involved in the process of creating a clean, healthy and economically viable Coosa River Basin.

Major cities
A number of significant cities lie on the banks of the Tallapoosa River. They include:
 * Heflin, Alabama - headwaters
 * Buchanan, Georgia - headwaters
 * Tallapoosa, Georgia - headwaters
 * Wedowee, Alabama - near R. L Harris Lake (Lake Wedowee)
 * Lineville, Alabama - near R.L harris Lake (Lake Wedowee
 * Wadley, Alabama- on the banks of the Tallapoosa River
 * Alexander City, Alabama - north flank of Lake Martin
 * Dadeville, Alabama - south flank of Lake Martin
 * Tallassee, Alabama - site of Lower Tallassee Dam
 * Wetumpka, Alabama - near confluence with Coosa River forming the Alabama River
 * Montgomery, Alabama - Tallapoosa River is major source (60%) of drinking water for city.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Tallapoosa River


text:
Talk:Ojibwa-Potawatomi-Ottawa language

To do to improve

 * more on the Ojibwemowin dialect

Otherwise, the article is very good. All the extra information have already been summarised and placed in this article while the specifics of the article were given their own articles as further details. Special thanks to BentRedNewt/Whimemsz for all the dedicated efforts!! CJLippert 18:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) specific examples of differences and similarities across all dialects
 * 2) re-word each of the dialect descriptions to be less confusing
 * 3) examples of language use differences between ritual Anishinaabemowin and the secular Anishinaabemowin
 * 4) better referencing across all article sections

WikiProject Languages
I feel the layout of this article should be changed a bit to conform to the WikiProject Languages template. So I'm going to go ahead and change it. --Whimemsz 22:40, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Placement in the Algic family tree
Are you sure that Ojibwa is not Central Algonquian? Algonquian has three branches, Eastern, Central, and Plains. The Eastern branch has ten languages (including Abnaki, Micmac, Mohegan, Powhatan, Maliseet-Passamaquoddy and Wampanoag); the Plains branch includes Blackfoot, Arapaho and Cheyenne; there are several "outliers" that do not belong to any of the three branches (including Mahican, Piscataway, Lumbee and Carolina Algonquian); and then there is the big Central branch which counts 23 languages (including the several Cree groups, Montagnais, Potowatomi, Kickapoo, Shawnee, Algonkin, Menominee, Fox, Miami, Ottawa, and, as I understand it, Ojibwa).

Checking this on Ethnologue, I see that they show it as Algic - Algonquian - Central - Ojibwa (see Ethnologue report on Ojibwa). —Stephen 09:39, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, but Plains and Central Algonquian are not genetic divisions, merely divisions based on location. Only Eastern Algonquian is a true genetic subfamily. So it seemed misleading to classify Ojibwe as "Central Algonquian" in the family tree. --Whimemsz 00:20, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * Recent work by Goddard and others (see references at Central Algonquian languages shows that there probably is something akin to Central Algonquian, although not necessarily with the same boundaries as the traditional geographic reference. However, Ojibwa is included in every variant of "Central Algonquian".  One of the functions of the template is to aid in navigation through Wikipedia, so I'm going to place Central Algonquian in the template.  This is especially relevant since the Central Algonquian languages article links to this page, but this page doesn't link back.  There are plenty of caveats in both this article and the Central Algonquian languages article to warn the reader that the genetic reality may be something different and that "Central Algonquian" as currently constituted in Ethnologue (for example) is a geographical grouping. (Taivo (talk) 18:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC))

In Central and Eastern Ojibwe, accent = syncope
I would say that in the case of Ojibwe, especially in Central and Eastern Ojibwe, as well as in Odawa, terms "accent" and "syncope" are one and the same. The word for "horse" is "bebezhigooganzhii", given as an example in the article. The metred foot would be "(be)( be -zhi)( goo -gan)( zhii )" but due to the resulting syncope, a pure byproduct of the accent meter, makes the word sound like "bbezhgoognzhii" with the unstressed long vowel reduced to a short neutral vowel while the unstressed short vowel dropping out entirely.

In Wisconsin, the unstressed short vowels don't drop out, but often instead go through transformation. However, this doesn't quite happen with the "horse" example, making the word sound like "bbezhigooganzhii". In Minnesota, and Ontario Saulteaux, the word sounds as the way it is written "bebezhigooganzhii". Manitoba Saulteaux, instead uses an entirely different word: "mishtadim", which do experience the reduction and sounds like "mashtadim". CJLippert 03:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

 * My point was just that the term "syncope" is used to refer specifically to the loss of a sound. As far as I know, it's not technically synonymous with a stress pattern that results in syncope. That is, Ojibwe's stress pattern results in specific rules for vowel syncope in most dialects, but the stress itself is not equivalent to the actual "act" of dropping the vowels. If that makes sense. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you or I'm incorrect, though.

 * Take care. --Whimemsz 17:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Article Length
The article is nearly 50kb now. We should probably split it into a couple of smaller ones (probably the phonology section and writing section at least). Does anyone have any suggestions about what path to take? --Whimemsz 23:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * My suggestion would be to put the "Phonology", "Grammar" and "History" onto a different page, or have "Phonology" and "History" on a second page and "Grammar" on a third page.  Possible separate "Grammar" page might be prudent since this section potentially can grow to a size greater than the current single article as various sub-classes are added in. As a minor point, this would, however, cause the remaining sections to be slightly re-arranged in their presentation order and appropriate references and external links to be shared/divided between/among the two/three pages. CJLippert 15:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, good point about the grammar section; I agree with you there, then. Looking through the article again, it looks to me like moving the "Phonology" and "Grammar" sections to two new pages would be enough to bring the article to a more reasonable length (though quick summaries of the phonology and grammar would be kept in their respective sections). The "History" section is pretty short, and it doesn't seem to me that it has much potential to grow too much bigger, so I don't know whether we'd need to move that section. Anyway, I'll try experimenting with different possibilities on my subpage (User:Whimemsz/Current). Take care, --Whimemsz 22:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You might want to include in the "Phonology" of the coalescing of "sh" with "s" in some Ojibwe dialects, resulting in additional clusters of "sp" and "st" in addition to the "sk", as well as the nasal carry-over of CVV if C is an "m" or "n", for example, resulting in "moose" being written in Ojibwe as either "mooz" or "moonz". If you want to get into the nitty-gritty, you could also discuss about the long and short "e" that occurs in the western Wisconsin Dialect (as in "zaaga'egan -- lake"), and the "ai" diphthong that occurs in the eastern Wisconsin Dialect (as in "zaaga'aigan -- lake").  A discussion of the sh- to s-shifting consonant (N&N's /S/) and zh- to n-shifting consonant (N&N's /N/) would be a good addition as well.  When I suggested the "History" be moved to be with the "Phonology" page, this was part of my reasoning behind it since it does take linguistic reconstruction to explain these shifts.  Also worth mentioning are are the n/ø variation (as in "ningodwaaswi" vs. "ingodwaaswi" -- six) and its associated ny/y variations (as in "giigoonh" vs. "giigooy" -- fish). CJLippert 23:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay. Since my knowledge of Ojibwe comes mainly through N&N, I'm really only familiar with the Mille Lacs Minnesota variety, and not as much so the dialects spoken in Wisconsin or elsewhere. You obviously know more than I do about dialectal variations, so anything you could add to the pages would be great.

 * N&N's /N/ and /S/ come from the PA lateral fricative (> modern n), which even in PA became *š (> modern zh) before *i. I'm assuming that /S/ comes from the cluster *ʔɬ~*ʔš (> modern s and sh, respectively). I'm not sure of the origin of the other phenomena (although I had a vague suspicion that the various forms the first person prefix takes come from nasal assimilation, e.g. nig- > ning- (> ing-), and that the same thing happened with (n)ingodwaaswi and (n)ishwaaswi. I could easily be completely wrong, though. Take care, --Whimemsz 23:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think nasal assimuation is happening here (but don't quote me that, 'cause I need to think about this a bit more). Along with the n/ø variation, there is also a parallel zh/ø variation, as in zhaaganaash/aaganaash -- "English". I'm stopping here, because now I am getting way off track.  Let's see the article split and then these nitty-gritty details can be worked in later.  Miigwech on all your hard work! CJLippert 15:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Okie-doke. Miigwech to you as well! Take care, --Whimemsz 00:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Though the page looks great, it is still very, very large. Would it make sense to move the writing system?  If we did, then we could talk about the ancient Ojibwe "heiroglyphics", Evans Double-vowel Roman, Evans Syllabics, Great Lakes Syllabics, Saulteaux-Cree Roman, Algonquin Roman, Fiero Double-vowel Roman and Rhodes Double-vowel Roman. CJLippert 00:31, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. And besides, it's a little odd to have half of the article taken up by a discussion of the orthography anyway. --Whimemsz 00:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Change the article title?
Do we want to keep the current title "Ojibwe language" or would it make more sense to migrate the article to a new title, maybe something like the "Anishinaabe language" or "Anishinaabemowin"? The main reason for this question is, in my opinion, having the "Ojibwe language" title seems to exclude the Odawa, Nipissing, Mississaugas, Algonquin and Saulteaux, but saying "Anishinaabe language" would include these groups. However, the shift would also beg the question of if the Potawatomi language would be folded into the article with the new name or if there ought to be an expanded discussion on the dialects, with a short paragraph or two regarding the Potawatomi language and providing a "Main article: ..." link in that section. Ideas, suggestions and your vote, please. CJLippert 23:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You know more about this stuff than I do, so I'll trust your judgement on this one; if you think the title should be changed, that's fine with me. Man, I want to get my hands on some of Valentine's stuff so I can learn more about Anishinaabemowin dialectology...

 * If we do change it, I'd suggest perhaps "Anishinaabe language" or "Anishinaabemowin language"? Take care, --Red Newt 20:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * The article has be given a new title. However, this now opens up other issues that make the article weak in places.  For example, the dominant dialect of this language is Ojibwemowin, but yet the discussion for this dialect is close to zilch.  However, this arrangement now allows for further discussion for additional information on other dialects of Anishinaabemowin.  Instead of the SILS grouping, I grouped the dialects by what the people call their speech or tribal affinity... to reduce the non-Anishinaabe slicing and dicing of the language(s). CJLippert 00:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks a lot for the added dialectal info. I hadn't really understood the situation with Anishinaabemowin dialects when I fist tried to write that (very brief) section, so I basically took Valentine's discussion of dialects on his site with Ethnologue's divisions, and tried to mesh them together into something. Evidently, I wasn't successful :) . It's great to have the new sections and information! --Red Newt 21:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The Canadian Oxford Dictionary, which is the authority used by the Canadian gov't, Canadian Press, newspapers, etc. recommends these English terms:

Ojibwa (also Ojibway, Ojibwe): 1. a member of an Algonquian people living especially around Lake Superior and certain adjacent areas. 2. the Algonquian language of these people [etymology: Ojibwa language, from a root meaning "puckered", with reference to their moccasins]

ISO 639-3 also prefers the term Ojibwa.

Although the term "Anishinaabe" might be accurate in the Ojibwa language itself, it's a non-standard English term (for the English Wikipedia). Which English language style guides and authorities recommend using terms other than Ojibwa (such as "Anishinaabe") to denote this language? It seems unsourced.

What is the official recommended usage in American English style guides used by the government, newspapers, etc? I would recommend changing the name of the article to Ojibwa language unless the foremost authorities on current American English say otherwise. If that's the case, then we need to compromise between the American and Canadian standardized English term.

If you're concerned about the term feeling exclusive to the Odawa people, we can always say Ojibwa-Odawa language, which I've seen used a lot. And then the article Odawa language focus on that dialect of the Ojibwa language.

The bottom line is that it's not our role to make terminological decisions. We should use the English terms that sources like the gov't, the press, ISO, linguists, etc. use.

--Sonjaaa (talk) 22:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Anishinaabe language is more than just the Ojibwa, and including the Ottawa still isn't inclusive enough. As inclusiveness and unity was main driver of name change from Ojibwa language to Anishinaabe language but if moving away from Anishinaabe language but still maintaining unity, the other official name of Ojibwa-Potawatomi-Ottawa language would be the choice, with an Ojibwa-Ottawa language article created to bridge to the individual language articles or having a major revision of the existing Anishinaabe language dialects article restructured to the Ojibwa-Ottawa language and Potawatomi language format as well as bringing in discussions of their relationship not only with each other but to other languages or restructured in such a way to provide a bridge between the Ojibwa-Potawatomi-Ottawa language and the individual languages via the Ojibwa-Ottawa language and the Potawatomi language article. Everyone agrees that the Mississaugas and the Saulteaux are the sub-tribes of the Ojibwa. The Ottawa language is agreed as a divergent dialect of the Ojibwa language. Though linguistically both the Oji-Cree language and the Algonquin language are considered particularly divergent dialects of the Ojibwa language, saying they are Ojibwa is often considered insulting. The Potawatomi language is not part of the Ojibwa-Ottawa language. However, all of these are considered part of the Anishinaabe language. So, if ISO name is driver, then the article should be renamed instead as the Ojibwa-Potawatomi-Ottawa language. CJLippert (talk) 02:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

To say an Oji-Cree

s to lay the foundation to both the individual languages and to the

Another split?
Discussion moved to Talk:Anishinaabe language dialects CJLippert 15:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Moved from article
I removed the following from the "vocabulary" section: "Contemporary words are created with ease by fluent speakers and a genuine understanding of the complex morpheme chains plays an important role in this process.  This flexibility makes the language durable in modern times but difficult to teach as there will often be many ways to describe the same concept.  However a sharp distinction must be made between literal and implied translations as they will often differ significantly as in the battery and airplane examples cited above." It more or less repeats the previous info in the section, and is written in somewhat unencyclopedic style (I think). However I think a lot of it addresses some important stuff, so I'm going to try to see if I can work some of it back in. --Miskwito 23:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This is how at work I apply my Torah study techniques and as a chemist with Carbon chemistry so that I can understand the Anishinaabe culture, especially the language and Midewiwin.
 * The first (Peshat) level of Torah study, the simple meaning/idea is conveyed; generally a straight-forward literal understanding of the subject. Same with Anishinaabemowin.  In carbon chemistry, this is the simple chain level.  Everything on this level is linear.  The First-degree Midew look at the world at this level.
 * The next level is the Remez level of Torah study, where hints/clues are examined; generally, a circular argument is used, but with the firm grounding in the first level. Same with Anishinaabemowin.  In carbon chemistry, this is the organic rings level.  Everything on this level is circular/loop-system where one studies not the ring themselves but rather the implication of the rings to their surroundings.  The Second-degree Midew looks/understands at the world at this level.
 * The next higher level is the Derash level of torah study, where all the implied interpretations are examined; in this level, everything is iterative... a loop-system like previous system, by never repeating like the linear-system... this level is a spiral-system. Same is with Anishinaabemowin... expecially the ritual forms.  In carbon chemistry, again, this level is mimicked as spirals.  Again, the Third-degree Midew looks at the world from this perspective, always.
 * The highest level in Torah study is the Sod level; it is a global, all-encompassing way of study. Strangely or not, again, Anishinaabemowin works the same way.  In carbon chemistry, again, this level is mimicked as geodes, where by it shape, it can hide something like a metal within its cavity, but effecting the world around it with whatever that it hides in its encapsulation.  The Fourth-degree Midew (a Jiisakiiwinini) also looks and understand the world in this fashion.
 * At work, I see these played out in unexpected ways, such as with the decision-making process. For example, often my boss (a Christian) looks at the world in a linear fashion.  A good friend who is considered a young Elder (a non-Christian, but also not in the Midewiwin but grew up in a traditional fashion)  looks at the world in a circular fashion.  I look at the world in an interative fashion.  However, the Elders of the Elder Advisory Board (all are either 3rd- or 4th-degree Midew), who provides critical feedback to all of us look at the world on a global level... in both space and in time.  I often find myself thinking I'm looking at a problem globally, but then are often given reminders by the Elders of the iterative nature of my outlook.  My friend who is a young Elder is beginning to understand the world in a more iterative fashion... and really ought to be invited to be initiated.  The Elders often comment "We need to teach our youths our Traditional ways" because the youth are not being exposed to the highest level of world views, but rather stuck at the easy, linear, simple, literal view of the world around them.
 * I know this is a bit philosophical, but it works for me. The question becomes how explain this to the general population without doing what I am doing, which is looking at this from Jewish eyes.  The readers of the article must have the ability to read the ideas and concepts without such non-Anishinaabe filtration imposed onto the article. CJLippert 01:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I want to display ᐊᓂᔑᓈᐯᒧᐎᓐ
How do I display the characters for ᐊᓂᔑᓈᐯᒧᐎᓐ?

ICE77 -- 81.104.129.226 20:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In order to see these characters, you will need fonts with the Unified Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics (UCAS) range of UniCode. There are several fonts out there containing the UCAS range, such as Ballymun RO or Code2000, but if you go to Chris' LanguageGeek site at http://www.languagegeek.com and follow the "download" option, you can get the fonts of his creations in the UCAS range as well.  Place the font in your computer's Font file, and voila!.  Check the CAS article for more details. CJLippert 01:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of language name
While is, I think, a valid phonemic rendering of Anishinaabemowin for some dialects (although in practice the  is generally realized in those dialects as, as far as I know), I'm not sure  really is. As far as I know, the fortis fricatives are never pronounced as aspirated (,, etc. are difficult to distinguish from plain , , etc. in any case) in any dialect. It seems to me that it would be more accurate to give the alternate phonemic representation as instead of. But I could be wrong! (Of course, there's also a question of whether, say, and the like should be included as well...) --Miskwito (talk) 20:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC) In Anishininiimowin, to my knowledge, the phoneme ᐦ and ᐡ  seem totally seperate. I have also read somewhere on Wikipedia that certain dialects of Anishinaabemowin change an initial lenis consonant of a verb when it is immediately following a certain preverb (like gii-, I believe), which, to me, suggests that a fortis consonant is actually composed of a sequence of a fortis-making element (e.g. h) and the corresponding lenis consonant, in that order. What do you think about this?--Jeziorko (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, there isn't a consistent pronunciation of the fortis sounds (let alone lenis sounds) across Anishinaabemowin, which is why there are so many different ways to represent the sound: Fiero zh \ sh can be (think of the syllabics),,  (think of Leonard Bloomfield) or  (think of Charles Fiero).  Also, among some speakers, instead of ,  is instead heard.  So what ought to be the primary representation?  I don't know.  My guess is good as yours.  However, I would caution that whatever that is chosen should match the article body. CJLippert (talk) 22:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not a native speaker of Anishinaabemowin, but I think that the phonemic representation is best. Lengthening or post-aspiration, to my knowledge, might be best viewed as phonetic realizations of the underlying form rather than the phonemic form itself, if we want to contrast /*/ and [*].
 * Again, though it is very tempting to go with just the representation, it would be outright error in many Anishinaabemowin areas. Though it would clutter things, it might be better if we include both  and  as well as this article discusses primarily the non-syncoped form of the language. I think that it would also be good idea to add two most common pronunciations of "Anishinaabemowin" in each of the dialects discussed in the Anishinaabe language dialects article so that the reader could see the variations we're discussing here. CJLippert (talk) 08:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm just considering the fact that /*/ is supposed to be an underlying representation, which perhaps is common across all dialects, including the vowel-syncopating ones, because even vowel syncope can be derived from a common-Anishinaabe underlying representation. On the other side, one could, like mentioned, show the surface pronunciations, but using [*] brackets, showing many dialect forms. These being on the side of the main article, I don't think they would clutter things too much. One could also have audio buttons, as IPA symbols can be meaningful to only so many people.--Jeziorko (talk) 06:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia in Anishinaabemowin
I've been wondering: Is there an Anishinaabemowin Wikipedia in plan?--Jeziorko (talk) 02:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No oj.wikipedia.org in the plans. However, there are several entries at Wiktionary. If an oj.wiki were to be started, the big question would be how the information would be displayed: roman (and if so, which orthography), syllabics (and if so, which orthography) or both? At cr.wikipedia.org, the results have been mixed. CJLippert (talk) 15:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Name of the language and its dialects
Let's gather the various sources to compare the standardized English names for this language and its dialects according to different authorities.

http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/English_list.php

--206.248.172.247 (talk) 17:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Marianne Mithun. 1999.  The Languages of Native North America.  Cambridge University Press.  Ojibwa = ojibway = Ojibwe = Chippeway:  Saulteaux, Northwestern Ojibwa, Southwestern Ojibwa, Ojibwa, Severn Ojibwa, Central Ojibwa, Ottawa = Odawa, Eastern Ojibwa, Algonquin (Potawatomi listed separately) (p.327)
 * Handbook of North American Indians. Smithsonian Institution.  (Chapter headings) Potawatomi, Southwestern Chippewa, Southeastern Ojibwa, Ottawa, Nipissing, Algonquin (from Volume 15, Northeast); Northern Ojibwa, Saulteaux (from Volume 6, Subarctic); Plains Ojibwa (from Volume 13, Plains)
 * Lyle Campbell. 1997.  American Indian Languages:  The Historical Linguistics of Native America.  Oxford University Press.  Ojibwa-Potawatomi(-Ottawa); Algonquin; Salteaux (pg 153)
 * These are the standard reference works in Native American linguistics.
 * (Taivo (talk) 21:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC))

Title for this article
Changing “Anishinaabe language” to “Ojibwa-Potawatomi-Ottawa” is very unfortunate and linguistically misleading. Potawatomi is indisputably a separate language distinct from any variety of Ojibwe, although certainly closely related to Ojibwe. Sandwiching Potawatomi between “Ojibwa” and “Ottawa” – leaving the non-Algonquianist with the impression that Potawatomi is somehow intermediate between the other two, or equivalent in linguistic status - is even more unfortunate. The discussion under "Classification" doesn't help much since it invokes "Ojibwa-Ottawa," which is not a label that is used at all in the literature on Ojibwe. The relationship between this article, the "Ojibwa-Ottawa language" article, and the "Potawatomi language" article needs to be clarified, and the same can be said for the proliferation of other articles on varieties of Ojibwe. As well, this article is almost completely lacking in citations. John. Jomeara421 (talk) 03:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The current title of this article is, indeed, not the best (it follows Campbell). But even so, it is superior to the non-descriptive "Anishinaabe".  While that may be the native label for the language it is especially problematical when one looks at all the other articles for Ojibwa varieties that start (now or in the recent past) with Anishinaa.....  It is the equivalent of labelling all seven articles for Numic languages "Nümü".  While it may reflect native nomenclature, it is unusable in an encyclopedia setting.  These articles on Ojibwa varieties should reflect ISO 639-3 usage, IMHO.  However, ISO 639-3 does not have labels for nodes.  While this node can be labelled better, resorting to native labels which all sound the same for closely related languages is not the answer. (Taivo (talk) 03:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC))
 * I would not defend Wikipedia article titles like “Anishinaabe” which are obscure to English-language users, I agree. This article should be called “Ojibwe language” and the articles on Ojibwe dialects should build out from this one; in this respect I would agree that “Ojibwe” is therefore a ‘macrolanguage’ a la ISO 639, i.e. a cover term for referring to the linguistic varieties that fall under it. Campell’s Ojibwa note (p. 153 of his book) is not very useful (e.g. ‘Salteaux’ (a misspelling) is incorrectly located in Ontario and Quebec)), and can’t summarize the dialect complexities found in Ojibwe (in a massive compendium of this sort it is easy to make minor mistakes evident only to nitpickers such as myself). A better source is J. Randolph Valentine’s U of Texas dissertation (Ojibwe Dialect Relationships, 1994), based on original field work.

 * Ives Goddard somewhere used the term ‘emergent languages’ to refer to the Ojibwe dialects, and that is about right – if they survive for another hundred years or so they will very likely be closely related but distinct languages (much like Munsee Delaware and Unami Delaware). Right now they are mostly still close enough to count as dialects of one language, albeit with varying degrees of mutual intelligibility. The organization and content of the Wikipedia articles should reflect this better than they do now.

 * Finally, just to add to the terminological mayhem I would point out that Algonquianists actively involved in the study of Ojibwe tend to use the English spelling “OjibwE” (as I have above) rather than the spelling “OjibwA” apparently used in the occasionally  maligned ISO 639 system.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jomeara421 (talk • contribs) 23:42, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Sorry, forgot to sign! John  Jomeara421 (talk) 23:51, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why "Potawatomi" was added, but I'm currently preferring to call the article Ojibwa-Odawa language. This is the wording that was used as well in the language classes I was given by a guy from Manitoulin who teaches the language in Toronto now.--Sonjaaa (talk) 13:09, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ojibwa-Potawatomi-Ottawa language


text:
Australian red ensign

The Australian red ensign is the civil ensign of Australia, the flag of nationality flown by Australian registered ships. It is a red version of the national flag, which is mainly blue. Both flags resulted from the Commonwealth Government's 1901 Federal Flag Design Competition which required two entries: an ensign for Commonwealth Government use and another for the merchant navy. The winning design for the merchant ensign was based on the traditional British red ensign and featured the Southern Cross and Commonwealth Star.

Devices

The Australian red ensign is a predominantly red version of the Australian national flag, using the same shade of red as the Cross of Saint George which is part of the Union Jack present in the canton.

Maritime ensign
Following federation in 1901, the topic of national colours for British ships registered in Australian ports was addressed by the Navigation Act, which provided that such ships (i.e., civilian ships) should wear the Australian Red Ensign. Technically private non-registered vessels were liable to a substantial fine if they did not fly the British Red Ensign as they were not formally covered by the Navigation Act. However, an Admiralty Warrant was issued on 5 December 1938 which authorised such non-registered vessels to fly the Australian Red Ensign, too. Australia enacted fully domestic shipping legislation in 1981. The Shipping Registration Act of 1981 reaffirmed that the Australian Red Ensign was the proper "colours" for Australian registered ships and that smaller (i.e., less than 30 tons) pleasure and fishing craft could fly either the Australian red ensign or the Australian national flag but not both at the same time. Government vessels may also fly either.

History
The Commonwealth Government ran the Federal Flag Design Competition in 1901 to find two designs for Australian flags: one for official Commonwealth Government use and another for the merchant navy. After being submitted to King Edward VII for approval the competition-winning design which featured a southern cross with nine, eight, seven, six and five points respectively, and with Alpha Crucis being larger than Beta and Gamma as well as with Delta being smaller than Beta and Gamma, was standardised by the British Admiralty with the number of points on the four biggest stars of the southern cross set to seven and the four main Stars of the southern cross being equal in size—ostensibly to improve ease of manufacture. The original variety of points and sizes was an indication of the relative brightness of each star as it appeared in the night sky. In 1908, the current Commonwealth star of seven points replaced the earlier six-pointed star and has a smaller Inner Diameter.

In the decades following federation the red ensign was the pre-eminent flag in use by private citizens on land. This was largely due to the Commonwealth government, assisted by flag suppliers, discouraging use of the Commonwealth blue ensign, now known as the Australian national flag, by the general public. By traditional British understanding, the blue ensign was reserved for official government use although the red ensign was nevertheless still in military circulation until after the 1953 legislation, meaning the 1st and 2nd Australian Imperial Forces served under both the blue and red versions. State and local governments, private organisations and individuals were expected to use the red ensign.

In the 1920s there was debate over whether the blue ensign was reserved for Commonwealth buildings only, culminating in a 1924 agreement that the Union Flag should take precedence as the National Flag and that state and local governments were henceforth able to use the blue ensign. A memo from the Prime Minister's Department dated 6 March 1939 states that: "the Red Ensign is the flag to be flown by the public generally" and the federal government policy was "The flying of the Commonwealth Blue Ensign is reserved for Commonwealth Government use but there is no reservation in the case of the Commonwealth Merchant Flag, or Red Ensign".

In 1940 the Victorian government passed legislation allowing schools to purchase blue ensigns. The following year prime minister Robert Menzies issued a media release recommending that the blue ensign be flown at schools, government buildings and by private citizens and continued use of the red ensign by merchant ships, providing it was done so respectfully. Prime Minister Ben Chifley issued a similar statement in 1947.

Despite executive branch proclamations as to the respective roles of the two red, white and blue ensigns, there remained some confusion until the Flags Act 1953 declared the blue ensign to be the Australian national flag, leaving the Australian red ensign to its status as the civil ensign.

In the early 2020s, some Australian anti-government activists, including so-called sovereign citizens, and anti-vaccine mandate and related protests, adopted the Australian red ensign for their own purposes. The protesters often fly the flag upside down. Its use in this way is seen by many as disrespectful and insulting towards the soldiers who fight or have fought under the flag. The Returned & Services League of Australia (RSL) called it a "dishonour to Australian service men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice for our nation". It is unclear why the Australian red ensign was adopted by such groups. Australian government flag protocol says that the flag should never be flown upside down in any circumstances.

Merchant Navy Day
Australian National Flag Day was proclaimed in 1996.

Since 2008, 3 September has also been officially commemorated as Merchant Navy Day which allows the Australian red ensign to be flown on land for the occasion as a matter of protocol. Merchant Navy Day is an official recognition of the merchant navy's contribution in wartime, in particular the Pacific campaign in World War II.

Notable specimens
In 2024, it was reported in the Corryong Courier that the Australian Flag Society had discovered an Australian red ensign bearing the words "Changi '41 '42" and "Chitty flag", which may have flown over the Changi Football League game where POW Peter Chitty was awarded the "Changi Brownlow" medal.

title: Australian red ensign


text:
User talk:SwedishViking

 Some of the people, places or things you have written about in the article Simon Fransman may not be well-known enough to merit articles of their own. The Wikipedia community welcomes newcomers, and encourages them to become Wikipedians. By starting an account or logging in, each user is entitled to a user page in which they can describe themselves, and this article's content may be incorporated into that page. However, to merit inclusion in the encyclopedia proper a subject must be notable. We encourage you to write or improve articles on notable subjects.

Zzyzx11 | Talk 22:43, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:SwedishViking


text: User:Randy Johnston/Nav

title: User:Randy Johnston/Nav


text:
VMFA-112

Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 112 (VMFA-112) is a reserve United States Marine Corps McDonnell-Douglas F/A-18 Hornet squadron. The squadron is based at NASJRB Fort Worth, Texas and falls under the command of Marine Aircraft Group 41 (MAG-41), 4th Marine Aircraft Wing (4th MAW). Their tail code is MA. During World War II the squadron saw extensive action throughout the Pacific Theater of Operations especially at the Battle of Guadalcanal as part of the Cactus Air Force. By the end of the war, its 140 air-to-air kills ranked it third among Marine Corps squadrons.

Mission
Conduct of Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground operations in support of the Marine rifleman.

World War II
Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 112, was originally activated as VMF-112, at San Diego, California on 1 March 1942.

Deploying shortly after to Henderson Field on Guadalcanal in the Solomon Islands in their Grumman F4F Wildcats, the Wolfpack joined the Cactus Air Force with Marine Aircraft Group 11. On 31 January 1943 Jefferson J. DeBlanc downed five enemy aircraft in a single mission, and was awarded the Medal of Honor for this action. In recognition of its valor and its contributions to victory during its service on Guadalcanal, VMF-112 was awarded the Presidential Unit Citation (US) for 7 August – 9 December 1942.

VMF-112 was withdrawn from Guadalcanal to Espiritu Santo for a respite. There it began to switch to the Vought F4U-1 Corsair, the aircraft that it would fly for the rest of World War II. VMF-112 returned to the United States on 5 September 1943 and took up duty at MCAS Miramar, outside of San Diego. It was there that VMF-112 was redesignated VMF(CVS)-112, denoting that the squadron was carrier qualified. In December 1944, VMF-112 was assigned to Air Group 82 aboard USS Bennington for its second combat tour. In mid-May 1945, Lieutenant Robert Cook scored the only downing of a barrage balloon by a Marine squadron during the war when he shot one down over Kyūshū. By the completion of World War II, the Wolfpack was credited with the destruction of 140 Japanese aircraft in aerial combat, ranking it third among Marine Corps squadrons in terms of enemy aircraft destroyed. Following the surrender of Japan VMF-112 returned to the United States where it was deactivated on 10 September 1945.

Post World War II
The squadron was reactivated on 1 July 1946 as the Marine Air Detachment, Marine Air Reserve Training Command, Naval Air Station Dallas Dallas, Texas. VMF-112 was reactivated with the Corsair, but eventually flew the Grumman F9F Panther, the North American AF-1E Fury, and Vought F8U-1 Crusader.

When VMF-111 was deactivated, its aircraft passed to VMF-112, which became the Marines' largest reserve squadron. Upon receipt of the all-weather D/E model of the Crusader, the squadron was redesignated VMF(AW)-112 and flew several more versions of the F-8 until late 1975, when it switched to the McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom II and was redesignated VMFA-112. On 18 January 1992, VMFA-112 retired the last active F-4S squadron in naval service (though some F-4 Phantom IIs remained in naval testing facilities after this). VMFA-112 flew the McDonnell-Douglas F/A-18A Hornet on their first official flight 8 October 1992. VMFA-112 moved to NAS Fort Worth Joint Reserve Base (JRB) in September 1996 and continues to operate there.

2000 & beyond
In 2002, VMFA-112’s aircraft were reconfigured to the F/A-18A+ aircraft. The Cowboys were the first Reserve squadron to deploy on a Western-Pacific exercise since the Korean War. In the summer of 2004, the squadron supported Operation Jungle Shield and Exercise Southern Frontier while operating out of Japan, Guam and Australia. In 2005, VMFA-112 deployed to Oerland Main Air Station, Norway, for the multinational exercise: Battle Griffin. The exercise was conducted to enhance cohesive operations between multinational forces and hone air-to-ground combat skills. The Marines experienced cold weather and harsh conditions during the exercise.

Currently, VMFA-112 has been working closely with sister squadron VMGR-234 on what has been called the "Herc/Hornet Expeditionary Package." The conceptual program would allow an F/A-18A+ to land on a hastily constructed runway and refuel and rearm quickly without having to return to base, as is the current operating procedure. The program would be in keeping with the Marine Corps nature of self-sufficiency.

The squadron was deployed to Al Asad Air Base, Al Anbar Province, Iraq in late 2009. During their deployment, the Cowboys supported the ground withdrawal from the major cities in Iraq, supported special forces during numerous missions, and provided key aerial surveillance for intelligence. The squadron was the last fighter/attack squadron to leave Iraq closing that chapter on the Iraq War.

By Fiscal Year 2029, VMFA-112 is scheduled under the USMC Force Design 2030 Aviation Plan to begin conversion from their F/A-18's to F-35B aircraft.

Squadron aces

 * Archie Donahue – 14 kills
 * Jefferson J. DeBlanc – 9 kills
 * Robert B. Fraser – 6 kills
 * James G. Percy – 6 kills
 * Joseph B. Lynch – 5.5 kills
 * John B. Maas – 5.5 kills
 * Wallace E. Sigler – 5.33 kills
 * Paul J. Fontana – 5 kills
 * Wayne W. Laird – 5 kills
 * Donald C. Owen – 5 kills
 * Stanley T. Synar – 5 kills

title: VMFA-112


text:
USS Fullam

USS Fullam (DD-474) was a Fletcher-class destroyer in the United States Navy during World War II. Fullam was named for Rear Admiral William Fullam (1855-1926).

Fullam was launched 16 April 1942 by Boston Navy Yard; sponsored by Miss Mariana F. Welch, granddaughter of Rear Admiral William Fullam; and commissioned 2 March 1943.

History
Fullam served briefly as an east coast escort, then arrived at San Diego, California, 28 June 1943. After training in the Hawaiian Islands, she arrived at Efate, New Hebrides, 28 August for escort and patrol duties in the Solomons. From 1 November, when she covered the landings on Cape Torokina, Fullam guarded convoys carrying reinforcements and supplies to Bougainville as well as bombarding enemy installations in the Empress Augusta Bay area 25 January 1944. Four days later, at Vella Lavella, transports Fullam screened, embarked a mixed reconnaissance party of New Zealanders and American sailors, which was landed on the Green Islands, 30 January. The party was reembarked that night, and the landings in force by New Zealand troops on the Green Islands took place 15 February, as Fullam and her task force provided protective cover.

Through the next 3 months, Fullam continued her patrol, escort, and bombardment missions in the Solomons, joining in the landings on Emirau 20 March 1944. After training and replenishment at Port Purvis on Florida Island in the Solomons, and at Espiritu Santo, the destroyer joined the 5th Fleet for the assault on the Marianas. She arrived off Tinian 12 June for the bombardments on Tinian and Saipan which began the next day and continued until the landings of 15th. Ordered west to search for an enemy task force known to be moving into position to oppose the landings, Fullam rejoined the carrier task force 19 June as the Battle of the Philippine Sea opened. During this 2-day engagement, she joined in the general firing which combined with fighter actions brought down the vast majority of the Japanese naval aviation as an effective element in the war. Completing her assignment in the Marianas with duty screening the cruisers bombarding Guam as well as firing on targets there herself, Fullam departed the Marianas 10 August for Eniwetok.

After training at Guadalcanal, Fullam sortied from Port Purvis 6 September 1944 for the assault on the Palau Islands. Six days out, she and Noa (APD-24) collided, Noa sinking in 6 hours, and Fullam being badly damaged. Despite this, Fullam not only rescued all of Noa's men, but also carried out daily shore bombardment and night harassing fire, as well as covering the work of underwater demolition teams, as Peleliu was assaulted, then sailed for temporary repairs at Manus and a west coast overhaul.

Fullam returned to Pearl Harbor for training 24 December 1944, then sailed for picket duty off Pagan Island before reaching Saipan 15 February 1945. Here she joined a task group for the Iwo Jima assault, sailing 16 February to serve as screen and fire-support ship during the assault and the bitter fighting which followed until 28 February. After replenishing at Leyte, she sailed 27 March in the screen of an escort carrier group for the Okinawa operation. After providing air cover to the landings of 1 April, her group began continual strikes on the airfields on the Sakashima Clunto from which suicide flights were launched by the Japanese. On 4 May, while screening Sangamon (CVE-26) with another destroyer, Fullam fired on a group of four kamikazes attacking the carrier. The screening destroyers shot down three of the attackers, but the fourth crashed the escort carrier's flight deck, forcing many of her men over the side. Three were saved by the destroyers, who stood by as Sangamon extinguished the huge fire.

From 13 May 1945, Fullam was assigned to antisubmarine patrol and antiaircraft fire support off Hagushi Beach, as well as antiaircraft fire support ship for fighter-director ships on radar picket stations away from the island. She sailed from Okinawa 1 July to escort landing craft to Guam, and an escort carrier from Guam to Eniwetok. Assigned to operate with carriers against northern Japan, Fullam cleared Eniwetok 11 August for Adak, but arriving after the close of hostilities, instead took up escort and patrol duties in the Aleutians until entering Puget Sound Naval Shipyard 13 November.

In March 1946 she sailed south to San Diego, where she was placed out of commission in reserve 15 January 1947.

Honors
Fullam received seven battle stars for World War II service.

title: USS Fullam


text:
Universalist Church of America

The Universalist Church of America (UCA) was originally a Christian Universalist religious denomination in the United States (plus affiliated churches in other parts of the world). Known from 1866 as the Universalist General Convention, the name was changed to the Universalist Church of America in 1942. In 1961, it consolidated with the American Unitarian Association to form the Unitarian Universalist Association.

The defining theology of Universalism is universal salvation; Universalists believe that the God of love would not create a person knowing that person would be destined for eternal damnation. They concluded that all people must be destined for salvation. Some early Universalists, known as Restorationists and led by Paul Dean, believed that after death there is a period of reprobation in Hell preceding salvation. Other Universalists, notably Hosea Ballou, denied the existence of Hell entirely.

Spiritual ancestry
Members of the Universalist Church of America claimed universalist beliefs among some early Christians such as Origen. Richard Bauckham in Universalism: a historical survey ascribes this to Platonist influence, and notes that belief in the final restoration of all souls seems to have been not uncommon in the East during the fourth and fifth centuries and was apparently taught by Gregory of Nyssa, though this is disputed by Greek Orthodox scholars. According to the Universalist historian Rev. George T. Knight, in the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa) were universalist.

The first verifiable and undisputed believer in universal salvation is Gerrard Winstanley, author of The Mysterie of God Concerning the Whole Creation, Mankinde (London, 1648).

Early America

American Universalism developed from the influence of various Pietist and Anabaptist movements in Europe, including Quakers, Moravians, Methodists, Lutherans, Schwenkfelders, Schwarzenau Brethren, and others. Pietists emphasized individual piety and zeal and, following Zinzendorf, a "religion of the heart." Early followers were most often German in ancestry. The majority of the early American Universalists lived in the Mid-Atlantic colonies, though Rhode Island also had a fair number of followers. Adams Streeter (1735–1786), the first minister of Universalist congregations in Oxford and Milford, Massachusetts, original societies of Universalism in New England, came from a Baptist background, ordained in 1774. Hosea Ballou has been called the "father of American Universalism," along with John Murray, who founded the first Universalist church in America in Gloucester, Massachusetts, in 1774.

One of the most important early Universalist evangelists was Dr. George de Benneville. Born in a Huguenot family exiled to England, he arrived in America in 1741. A physician and lay preacher, he spread Universalism among the German immigrants of Berks County, Pennsylvania, and later around Philadelphia and New Jersey. Benneville also commonly visited the Ephrata Cloister, a utopian community with Universalist beliefs. He arranged for the translation of a German book about universalism, The Everlasting Gospel (1753 translation), by Georg Klein-Nicolai of Friessdorf, Germany. Nearly forty years later, Elhanan Winchester read the book and converted to Universalism. He was influential in the printing of the Sauer Bible of Christoph Sauer (1695–1758), the first German Bible printed in America, with passages supporting Winchester's belief in the universal availability of salvation.

In the South, Rev. Giles Chapman was a former Quaker and Continental Army Chaplain who married into a Dunker family. The first Universalist church in South Carolina (and possibly in America) was the Freedonia Meeting Hall, situated in Newberry County.

Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and a convert to Winchester's teaching of universal salvation, but not a member of a Universalist church, was a vigorous foe of slavery, advocated the abolition of the death penalty, advocated for better education for women, supported free public schools, was a pioneer in the study and treatment of mental illness, and insisted that the insane had a right to be treated with respect. He published a pamphlet on the iniquity of the slave trade. As part of his abolitionism, he helped organize the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery and the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage, the first antislavery society in America; he also served as its president. Rush believed, as did Winchester and most Universalists, in a state of punishment after death for the wicked.

The first General Society was held in 1778. Annual conventions started in 1785 with the New England Convention. In 1804, this convention changed its name to "The General Convention of Universalists in the New England States and Others." At its peak in the 1830s, the Universalist Church is reported to have been the 9th largest denomination in the United States.

Consolidation
The Church consolidated with the American Unitarian Association to form the Unitarian Universalist Association. Some state Universalist Conventions did not accept the consolidation. These churches and others form minor pockets of Christian theological Universalists which remain, but most are affiliated with other denominations.

Church organization
Universalist congregations tended towards independence and were not easily prone to centralization. They generally met in state conventions, which usually had more authority than was vested in national conventions. To train ministers (among other things), the Church founded in 1831 the coeducational Clinton Liberal Institute in Clinton, New York. The church later established three divinity schools: Theological School of St. Lawrence University (1856–1965), the Ryder Divinity School (c. 1885–1913) at Lombard College, and the Crane Theological School of Tufts University (1869–1968).

The Philadelphia Convention was an independent National Convention from 1790 to about 1810.

Notwithstanding its tendency toward independence, Universalist congregations supported the construction of The Universalist National Memorial Church in Washington, D.C., to serve as the official church of Universalism. In 1921, the Universalist General Convention approved funds for the building of the church and services began in 1925. The present church, located at 1810 Sixteenth Street NW, Washington DC, was established in 1930 and its current congregation continues to follow Universalist principles.

Social and political stances
The Universalist Church of America involved itself in several social causes, generally with a politically liberal bent.

Abolitionism
As noted above, Benjamin Rush was a major political activist for anti-slavery causes in early America. The issue resurfaced in the 1850s with the Fugitive Slave Act and other compromises; the Universalists, along with various other denominations, vigorously opposed slavery as immoral. They also favored postbellum legislation such as the Fifteenth Amendment and the Freedman's Act to enfranchise all American citizens.

Separation of church and state
Like many American religions, Universalism has generally been amenable to church-state separation. In New England, Baptists, Universalists, and Quakers provided some of the loudest voices calling for disestablishment of the government sponsored churches of the standing order.

One example comes from the 1770s. By Massachusetts state law, citizens were taxed to support the Congregational Church of the community where they lived. Sixty-one people in Gloucester left the church to form the Independent Church of Christ, which stood for Universalism. They then refused to pay their taxes. The church they built was seized and sold to pay; however, the Church sued, and in 1786, they won their case.

Spiritualism
Although the Universalist Church as a denomination never fully embraced Spiritualism, many Universalists were sympathetic to this nineteenth-century movement. Spiritualism was preached with some regularity from Universalist pulpits in the middle decades of the 19th century and some ministers left the denomination when their Spiritualist leanings became too pronounced for their peers and congregations.

Ordination of women
On June 25, 1863, Olympia Brown became one of the first women in the United States to receive ordination in a national denomination, Antoinette Brown having been the first when she was ordained by the Congregational Churches in 1853. By 1920, there were 88 Universalist women ministers, the largest group in the United States.

Universalists

 * Hosea Ballou, theologian and evangelist
 * P. T. Barnum, entertainer
 * Clara Barton, founder of the American Red Cross; studied at the Clinton Liberal Institute
 * George de Benneville, influential early evangelist
 * Olympia Brown, the first woman in the United States to be ordained by a major denomination
 * Luella J. B. Case (1807–1857), author
 * Harrie B. Chase, US Federal Judge for the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit
 * Henry N. Couden, Chaplain of the U.S. House of Representatives for 25 years
 * John Albert Cousens, sixth president of Tufts College
 * Abner Kneeland, theologian and the last man in the United States jailed for blasphemy
 * Harold Latham, American editor known for discovering Margaret Mitchell's Gone with the Wind
 * Alonzo Ames Miner, second president of Tufts College
 * Henrietta G. Moore, Universalist minister, educator, temperance activist, suffragist
 * John Murray, evangelist
 * Judith Sargent Murray, essayist and poet, advocated woman's rights
 * Thomas Potter, farmer, church builder
 * James Relly, Welsh preacher, hymn writer
 * Caleb Rich, evangelist
 * Benjamin Rush, statesman, Founding Father, and abolitionist.
 * Clarence Skinner, theologian and dean of Crane School of Theology
 * Ted Sorensen, President John F. Kennedy's special counsel and adviser, speechwriter
 * Israel Washburn Jr., 29th Governor of Maine, United States Congressman, President of the Board of Tufts College

title: Universalist Church of America


text: Category:Former federal electoral districts of Newfoundland and Labrador


text: User:Agesilaus II

title: User:Agesilaus II


text: User talk:Agesilaus II

title: User talk:Agesilaus II


text: User talk:130.15.162.44

title: User talk:130.15.162.44