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Non-configurational language

In generative grammar, non-configurational languages are languages characterized by a flat phrase structure, which allows syntactically discontinuous expressions, and a relatively free word order.

History of the concept of "non-configurationality"
The concept of non-configurationality was developed by grammarians working within Noam Chomsky's generative framework. Some of these linguists observed that the Syntactic Universals proposed by Chomsky and which required a rigid phrase structure was challenged by the syntax of some of the world's languages that had a much less rigid syntax than that of the languages on which Chomsky had based his studies. The concept was invented by Ken Hale who described the syntax of Warlpiri as being non-configurational. However, the first to publish a description of non-configurationality was Chomsky himself in his 1981 lectures on Government and Binding, in which he referred to an unpublished paper by Hale. Chomsky made it a goal of the Government and Binding framework to accommodate languages such as Japanese and Warlpiri that apparently did not conform to his proposed language universal of Move α. Hale later published his own description of non-configurationality in Warlpiri.

Distinction
Non-configurational languages contrast with configurational languages, where the subject of a sentence is outside the finite verb phrase (VP) (directly under S below) but the object is inside it. Since there is no VP constituent in non-configurational languages, there is no structural difference between subject and object. The distinction — configurational versus non-configurational — can exist in phrase structure grammars only. In a dependency-based grammar, the distinction is meaningless because dependency-based structures do not acknowledge a finite VP constituent.

The following trees illustrate the distinction:

 * Configurational-non-configurat.png

Non-configurational languages have a seemingly 'flat' constituent structure, as illustrated above. The presence of the VP constituent in the configurational tree on the left allows one to define the syntactic relations (subject vs. object) in terms of configuration: the subject is the argument that appears outside of the VP, but the object appears inside it. The flat structure on the right, where there is no VP, forces/allows one to view aspects of syntax differently. More generally, Hale proposed that non-configurational languages have the following characteristics:

 * 1) free (or more accurately, pragmatically determined) word order
 * 2) extensive use of null anaphora (pro-drop phenomena)
 * 3) syntactically discontinuous expressions

However, it is not clear that those properties all cluster together. Languages that have been described as non-configurational include Mohawk, Warlpiri, Nahuatl, O'odham (Papago), Jingulu, and Jiwarli.

Discourse-configurationality
Using non-configurationality as a model, Maria Vilkuna coined and Katalin Kiss developed the concept of discourse-configurationality to describe languages where constituent order is primarily determined by pragmatic factors. Non-configurationality and discourse-configurationality are mutually independent.

The Oxford Handbook of Information Structure defines "discourse-configurational" as referring to "languages in which a particular phrase structure configuration is systematically and exclusively associated with some Information Structure category falling under the notions of Topic and Focus." Those associated with Topic status are more specifically called "topic-configurational," while those associated with Focus status are called "focus-configurational."

Hungarian is discourse-configurational.

Warlpiri
Warlpiri is a language of the large Pama-Nyungan language family and is spoken in Central Australia by more than 3000 people. It has four main dialects: Yuendumu Warlpiri, Willowra Warlpiri, Lajamanu Warlpiri, and Wakirti Warlpiri, which are spoken across the region. It displays the three main characteristics of non-configurationality, namely free word order, extensive use of null anaphora, and discontinuous expressions.

According to Hale, the relatively unconstrained manner in which words are ordered within the sentence is due to the way in which the projection principle acts in non-configurational languages. Hale's Configurationality Parameter (CP) holds that, in non-configurational languages, the projection principle holds of only lexical structure (LS). This is in contrast to configurational languages, where CP states that the projection principle holds of both phrasal structure (PS) and lexical structure. According to Hale, it is the lack of relation between lexical structure (LS) and phrase structure (PS) of sentences in Warlpiri that permits the three characteristics of non-configurationality to be present:

 * 1) Free word order within Warlpiri is due to three properties of the language: word position within the sentence can be assigned freely, pronominal clitics within the auxiliary verbs provide information about their functions, and argument-taking predicates include their case marking within their lexical entries.
 * 2) Concerning the possibility of null anaphora, the subject of an infinitive is allowed to be marked as anaphoric. However, the subject argument of lexical structure cannot be marked as anaphoric, because it cannot be bound and therefore would violate Principle A of Binding Theory.
 * 3) Discontinuous expressions are permitted in Warlpiri because non-adjacent nominals are able to correspond to a single verbal (AUX) argument. This means that the DP and the NP can be referring to the same verb, but are not beside each other in the sentence.

The major (lexical) categories of Warlpiri include N, V, and PV (proverb) and the minor (functional) categories include AUX (verbs) and particles, conjunctions, and clitics, which are all part of the category Particles. The general Warlpiri sentence phrase structure is as follows:

S --> (AUX)  α   α* (with α = N, V, or particle)

Pronominals are freely ordered with respect to the other words in the sentence, and behave as other nominals do. This is in contrast to the sentence structure of a configurational language, such as English, with a basic sentence phrase structure following:

S --> NP VP.

Warlpiri verbs are always argument-taking predicates and Warlpiri nominals are always arguments or argument-taking predicates. This is shown in the tree structure to the right of ngaju-rna mijipurru ("I am short") in Warlpiri, with the nominals ngaju ("I") and mijipurru ("short") acting as either an argument-taking predicate or argument, depending on the category of the AUX -rna ("am"). In this sentence, the AUX is first person singular, indicating that ngaju must act as an argument and that mijipurru must act as an argument-taking predicate in order for the sentence to be grammatical in Warlpiri. In English, the DP "I" is the argument and the adjective "short" is the argument-taking predicate. The trees to the right show the differences between configurational and non-configurational languages, with an example tree from Warlpiri compared with an example tree from English.

Case-based analysis: Jelinek
Hale (1980, 1981, 1982, 1983) aimed to define a configurationality parameter from which the clusters of properties in non-configurational languages would follow. Eloise Jelinek challenges Hale, providing a re-analysis of Walpiri and certain other non-configurational languages, proposes a different parameter. Mainly Jelinek provides an analysis for why nominals are frequently 'absent' in Warlpiri (null anaphora). Following the Government Binding Theory, the projection principle prevents missing nominals, instead there are empty heads that bear relevant thematic roles, in other words the nominal is recoverable. Hale stipulates that nominals in non-configurational languages are simply optional, which is a result of the nature of the relationship between phrase structure and lexical structure in non-configurational languages. However Jelinek proposes configurationally parameters that are in agreement with the projection principle, with specific reference to Warlpiri data. It is proposed that the AUX not only marks grammatical relations but it also a constituent containing case marked fully referential clitic pronouns that serve as verbal arguments. Since nominals are never verb arguments they can be omitted, without violating the projection principle.

Subsequently, Jelinek explains the free word order and apparent discontinuous expressions of non-configurational languages. Since nominals are not related to arguments, more than one nominal may be adjoined to a single argument thus yielding discontinuous expressions. Additionally because nominals act as adjuncts, they are not required to have a fixed word order. Following this, the function of nominals in non-configurational languages is, similar to adjoined clauses, to add more information to the verbal argument or the predicate.

Mark Baker's application of non-configurationality to polysynthetic languages
Linguist Mark Baker considers polysynthesis, making specific use of Mohawk, to provide a conception of Universal Grammar which accurately accounts for both polysynthetic languages and non-polysynthetic languages. He asserts that the polysynthetic languages must conform to a syntactic rule he calls the "polysynthesis parameter", and that as a result will show a special set of syntactic properties. Following this parameter, one property of polysynthetic languages is non-rigid phrase structure, making these languages non-configurational. To support his claim he considers three features of non-configurationality: the position of NPs, the licensing of NPs and discontinuous constituents.

Position of NPs
In non-configurational languages any NP can be omitted and can appear in an order relative to the verb or other NPs. Baker proposes polysynthetic languages follow this structure as NPs appear to have the properties of adjuncts. To take an example of an English parallel, adverbs are modifiers and can appear on either side of the VP, Baker applies this familiar concept to a new domain, showing that in Mohawk (a polysynthetic language), like English the VP has an obligatory position but NPs can be adjuncts with respect to this element.

Licensing of NPs
As discussed above, Baker proposes that in polysynthetic languages NPs do not take the argument position, he hence suggest there is another parameter which forces NPs into the adjoined position. He suggests this licensing occurs as a result of the Adjunct Licensing Condition, and following this, the Chain Condition. The Adjunct Licensing Condition states that an argument type phrase XP generated in the adjoined positions licensed if and only if it forms a chain with a unique null pronominal in an argument position. The Chain Condition states that X and Y may form a chain only under certain conditions. Namely, X c-commands Y, X and Y are coindexed, there is no barrier containing Y but not X and X and Y are non distinct in morphosyntactic features.

Discontinuous Constituents
Baker also considers Hale proposed third element of non-configurationality: the existence of discontinuous expressions. The range of discontinuous expressions of a polysynthetic language is determined primarily by lexical factors. This suggests that a language that allows a wider range of discontinuous expressions perhaps has more ways of licensing NP expressions.

In considering polysynthesis through the framework of non-configurationality, Mark Baker is able to provide basis for the unique syntax seen in polysynthetic languages. Mark Baker's approach to polysythesis creates some debate among linguists as it heavily relies on generative grammar, which causes some languages which would traditionally be considered to be polysynthetic to be excluded.

Controversy amongst phrase structure grammars
The analysis of non-configurational languages has been controversial among phrase structure grammars. On the one hand, much work on these languages in Principles and Parameters has attempted to show that they are in fact configurational. On the other hand, it has been argued in Lexical Functional Grammar that these attempts are flawed, and that truly non-configurational languages exist. From the perspective of syntactic theory, the existence of non-configurational languages bears on the question of whether grammatical functions like subject and object are independent of structure. If they are not, no language can be truly non-configurational.

Controversy with dependency grammars
The distinction between configurational and non-configurational languages can exist for phrase structure grammars only. Dependency grammars (DGs), since they lack a finite VP constituent altogether, do not acknowledge the distinction. In other words, all languages are non-configurational for DGs, even English, which all phrase structure grammars take for granted as having a finite VP constituent. The point is illustrated with the following examples:

 * No structure will have a finite VP constituent. - Finite VP in bold
 * No structure will have a finite VP constituent. - Non-finite VP in bold

Phrase structure grammars almost unanimously assume that the finite VP in bold in the first sentence is a constituent. DGs, in contrast, do not see finite VPs as constituents. Both phrase structure grammars and DGs do, however, see non-finite VPs as constituents. The dependency structure of the example sentence is as follows:

 * Non-configurational tree.jpg

Since the finite VP will have a finite VP constituent does not qualify as a complete subtree, it is not a constituent. What this means based upon the criterion of configurationality is that this dependency structure (like all dependency structures) is non-configurational. The distinction between configurational and non-configurational has hence disappeared entirely, all languages being non-configurational in the relevant sense. Note, however, that while the finite VP is not a constituent in the tree, the non-finite VP have a finite VP constituent is a constituent (because it qualifies as a complete subtree).

Dependency grammars point to the results of standard constituency tests as evidence that finite VP does not exist as a constituent While these tests deliver clear evidence for the existence of a non-finite VP constituent in English (and other languages), they do not do the same for finite VP.

title: Non-configurational language


text: Talk:Ted Kennedy (ice hockey)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Ted Kennedy (ice hockey)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles which are number one for one word Google searches

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User talk:Llywrch/Archive3

WikiProject Ancient Egypt
The page has been created at WikiProject Ancient Egypt. Please add your name to participants and add the page to your watchlist and join in the discussion on the talk page. -JCarriker 15:21, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)

Deir el-Bahri

 * I'm very pressed right now so let me apolgize for my tardy response as well as any spelling/grammar errors in this post. I have rewiewed Deir el-Bahri and I think you have done a superb job. I may add some additonal info latter but am curretnly very strapped for time. -JCarriker 20:03, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

Arrian
To say that Ptolemy was Alexander's half-brother is not an "allegation." It is a statement which may or may not be true. Adam 09:59, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mediation Committee application
Hi Geoff, just a note to say that Grunt has applied to join the mediation committee. There is a vote at Mediation_Committee if you want to participate. Regards -- sannse (talk) 22:15, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Seattle meetup
I have no idea if you still live in Portland, but I'm trying to drop notes on the pages of any Wikipedians I can think of who might be in the Northwest. Michael Snow and I are planning a Seattle meetup for November 6th -- probably at the downtown library. I don't know if you have any interest in coming to such a thing (quite a drive), but I figured I'd let you know and let you decide. The details are still being worked out on Michael's and my talk pages. I hope you'll consider it -- have a pleasant autumn, Jwrosenzweig 22:13, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

thank you
Thanks for the heads about the Occupation of Iraq, 2003-2004 article. As I said at Talk:Iraqi resistance I didn't realize what I was doing.

the "Arthur stone"
No problem; it's a somewhat-recent discovery, I think, so older books (and probably most newer ones, too) won't have it. Here are links to some of the websites I've found about it:

 * Arthurian Inscription
 * Tintagel Excavations 1998
 * "ARTHUR" Stone Discovered at Tintagel

Like I mentioned in the Historical Arthur article, it's by no means evidence that the King Arthur existed, but nonetheless it's interesting that there was a monarch named Arthur who ruled Tintagel in the 6th Century. Kuralyov 20:16, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject Ancient Egypt
Thanks for the tip - I'll check it out (can't promise how quickly, though - totally snowed under with Wikiprojects at the moment, as usual! :-) Noel 08:03, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pharaoh
Oh, well done on the hieroglyphics in Pharaoh! -- ALoan (Talk) 10:12, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Al Fayyum
Hi. I don't mind moving it over, and the spelling is not an issue for me. I'll go and change all the mentions in the article from "Fayum" to "Al Fayyum". Give me a couple of days. I'll also look into pointing any other links to "Al Fayyum". Thanks for the comment. --DanielCD 04:00, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Meetup
Geoff--It was great to meet you today. It was nice to "put a name with voice and face", as you say. I was glad to meet another Portlander. I put a couple pictures at Meetup/Seattle, including one of you, by the way. Best wishes, Matt -- Decumanus 09:14, 2004 Nov 7 (UTC)

Invite
Hi

I'm posting this to invite you to participate in WP:LCOTW, a project you may be interested in. Please consider nominating and/or voting for a suitable article there. Filiocht 12:30, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

First Crusade
Hey llywrch, I know you're more interested in ancient history, but as I recall you have helped out on some medieval topics too, so I was wondering if you have any comments about First Crusade article - a lot of work has been done on it lately and hopefully it is on the way to becoming a featured article. Thanks! Adam Bishop 06:54, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mediation Request
Hi llywrch. Are you available for mediations at the moment? I've been doing the preliminaries for Requests for mediation -  and you've been mentioned as a possible mediator. Would you mind having a look and seeing if you are interested? Thanks -- sannse (talk) 10:58, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Count me in if you are mediating the historical/cultural jesus article. I dont have an axe to grind, but I do have a view on it, and i have perhaps some input of value. FT2 19:09, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

 * In case my e-mail attempt has gone astray (or the various anti-spams have eaten any response) I'm interested in any an all methods of communication to resolve the issues amongst us; I am willing to phone to the USA if this would be a useful methodology. - Amgine 22:23, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid your message must have tripped one of the anti-spam/anti-virus layers on that account. Especially under the current wave of netsky infections, that account is getting inundated with virii and spam (it's one of my oldest accounts)... Try SCFLmediation at NOsaewycSpam dot net, with the usual spam obfuscation removed.
 * Got your message, and responded. But something seems a bit flaky on my end, so if you didn't get a response I'll have to rearrange some things (read, use the other computers) and then try again. - Amgine 07:55, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ANE
hi Llywrch, thanks for your comment on ANE chronology. Chronological systems of Babylonia and Assyria is purely 1911 at the moment. Chronology of Babylonia and Assyria is a semi-reworked 1911 text. My Chronology of the Ancient Orient is an attempt to give an up-to-date overview. The article is very unfinished. The statement "Starting from this date, the dates of the reigns of the Assyrian kings can be established to the precision of a year up to 883 BC" I pulled from a 1980s lexicon. May aim is to give a table that shows that for which reasons up to which year we can give dates to which precision, but I am nowhere near that yet. You are very welcome to help me out, and you are very welcome to participate on WikiProject Ancient Near East. One of my more urgent aims will be to decide whether to prefer short or middle chronology (and between which dates they are acurate anyway), so I can clean up the king lists, stating which chronology is used for the reign of each king. It seems to me that middle chronology used to be favoured as a compromise, but since nobody seems to believe in the long chronology anymore, the 'middle' one has itself become rather long, and it may be advisable to opt for the short one as a standard. But we will have to state which one is meant for each date anyway, to distinguish them from 'unknown chronology' of dates that were blindly copied off the web. dab 10:03, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cultural and historical background of Jesus - Compromise discussion
Llywrch;

Slrubenstein has said he will not further discuss compromise unless others are involved. Would you care to read or comment on Talk:Cultural and historical background of Jesus? - Amgine 20:28, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I am not certain I understood the motivation for asking for mediation initially; however it is clear an opportunity to work with an official mediator is a chance to avoid uncivil and non-productive interactions.
 * I think at least two other persons are involved in this discussion and perhaps should at least be invited to join the process: FT2 and John kenney.
 * I believe parties involved should agree to keep away from the article until mediation closes.
 * I would like to believe we could have a multi-sided discussion, but this has not proved to be the case. - Amgine 22:47, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mediation (response from Cheesedreams)

 * Do I understand what the 3 people involved want from me? If not, what am I missing?
 * My concerns are expressed on the mediation request page, and many are also succinctly put by FT2 in the section "FT2s comment (copied by Cheesdreams....)" in the article's talk page.

 * Is this dispute simply amongst these 3 people, or should we draw in more participants who have editted this article?
 * the dispute is predominantly amongst the 3 people,
 * however, since 1 person has drawn virtually all the other parties in this talk page here to support their side (a list is given in the request for mediation page, and associated evidence), I personally consider them secondary parties to the dispute.
 * Maureen was not brought in, and hasn't discussed anything since Slrubenstein attacked her comments about this page (which she put in as an outside disinterested response to a referral for comment about the two competing sides for this page).
 * FT2 seems to have been treated as part of the "anti-Slrubenstein" side by the "pro-Slrubenstein" side, though I am under the impression the other 2 people (of the 3 at the centre of the dispute) view FT2 as a neutral mediator, and I think his comments are welcome, and important to mention.

 * Once we start this mediation, should all parties involved keep away from this article until mediation comes to an end?
 * On the condition that the article is reverted to a version before any of the involved parties (or any contacted by the involved parties - which, given the propensity of Slrubenstein to contact others for assistance, I consider an important point) made any edits whatsoever (this will be from quite a long time ago - about a month or so)
 * AND that the content from either of the sides edits is not put into the article during this time by anyone, and if so it gets removed (for the purpose of safeguarding from contact by external methods such as e-mail or phone contact etc.)

 * Am I correct in saying that all parties involved need to use me as an intermediary, or should we merely have a 3- or 4-sided discussion on a Wiki page somewhere?
 * I have already stated that I will not talk directly to Slrubenstein until I receive an apology for his incivility, so I do not think that a 3/4 sided discussion would be very workable.

CheeseDreams 23:38, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Archiving
Hi llywrch. Is it OK for me to archive the discussion on your current mediation on Requests for mediation? I would move it to Archive 12.-- sannse (talk) 00:19, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

mediation
Hi, Sorry you haven't been feeling well. I currently do not have access to e-mail. I consider FT2 to be part of my dispute. I understand why you deleted a message I left here, but for the moment that remains my best summary of the situation for you. I have nothing to add to that and to my original request for mediation. I do think that if you have to time to review the entire discussion you will have more than enough of a picture of what is going on. I will try to limit my participation over the next few days, Slrubenstein Got your note and appreciate it, I will have e-mail access next week, Slrubenstein

I have an e-mail acount it is just that I am in transit and it is hard to access. And I can't access your e-mail. It's the first eight letters of my last name, "at" and then ohiou.edu Slrubenstein

Putting this link here
Putting this link here will undoubtably attract Slrubenstein and Sam Spade and company to the link destination. Nethertheless, would you like to comment?

Requests for comment/CheeseDreams

appeal
Cheesedream, summarizing what I have written, wrote:
 * Slrubenstein disputes translating "Yohanan" as "Jonathan" rather than "John". FT2 points out how David's associate "Jonathan" is "Yohanan" in Hebrew, to which Wesley states that the New Testament is Greek. Slrubenstein states that "Yonatan" is "Jonathan" and "Yohanan" is "John". Slrubenstein states that FT2 is a nut, and questions whether FT2 is masturbating Slrubenstein.

First, as an account of my point about names, it is a distortion and misquote. Second, I ask you as mediator whether the link to "mutual masturbation" is a banable offense. Slrubenstein

First, the text in my summary is 100% what was written by the parties I ascribe it to. In summarising, I employ the method of removing unnecessary detail from the text, continuously, until it is at a reduced size. At no point have I added detail or paraphrased. (You can check my first pass of the summary (which I do in two passes)- in which I cut out the extraneous statements by protagonists, but left, without paraphrasing or editing, all the statements that had importance - via the history).

Second, he said "FT2, are you yanking my chain", which (at least in the UK, though I think it likely the same in the US) is a (rather rude, and offensive) reference to mutual masterbation, I was merely tidying up and reducing the offensiveness of what he actually wrote.

Thirdly, I object to the manner in which he, and his associates, continually try to have me banned. I feel that such is immature, and pathetic behaviour, and furthermore counts as harrasment. CheeseDreams 19:35, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Article Licensing
Hi, I've started the Free the Rambot Articles Project which has the goals of getting users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to... using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) version 1.0 and 2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to the GFDL (which every contribution made to Wikipedia is licensed under), but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles (See the Multi-licensing Guide for more information). Since you are among the top 1000 most active Wikipedians, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles.
 * 1) ...all U.S. state, county, and city articles...
 * 2) ...all articles...

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the   template (or    for public domain) into their user page, but there are other templates for other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

 * Option 1
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

OR
 * Option 2
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions to any U.S. state, county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace   with   . If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know at my talk page what you think. -- Ram-Man 20:47, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

e-mail
I tried e-mailing you, using the address on your home page. It bounced back. How do I e-mail you? I left my e-mail address for you but haven't heard from you. Slrubenstein
 * This is the e-mail I have -- root@127.0.0.1 -- what did I do wrong?
 * 127.0.0.1 is the IP address for the local computer, everyone has it. It refers to their hard disc. It does not refer to a location anywhere on the internet, it refers to the computer it is typed in at. It is identical to the term "localhost". CheeseDreams 01:25, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Just to be an annoying nitpicker, it refers to a network interface. Network interfaces and hard disks have nothing to do with each other. Otherwise you're exactly right.   — J I P | Talk 13:15, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Injunction
Could you please comment on Talk:Cultural_and_historical_background_of_Jesus

as I would like the discussion on the page to stop forever repeating the same ground mindlessly? CheeseDreams 01:25, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Abuse of Adminship
In your position as mediator, I wish to formally object to Slrubenstein's abuse of adminship by reverting then protecting Jesus in a cultural and historical background, without even placing a protection notice on the page, despite being involved in the revert war over the article. CheeseDreams 21:38, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A note of thanks
Geoff, I've been meaning to say hello anyway ever since we met at Meetup/Seattle. I have been noticing your work in a mediation recently (to which I am not a party but in which I am interested), and I realized that you've been working very hard, and that when I work hard on Wikipedia without anyone recognizing my effort, I generally get cranky and/or stressed. You really have been putting forth admirable energy and I appreciate it. I hope you very soon get to buy some Xmas presents for your wife and then settle down with a cold beverage to watch our Northwest winter out your window.....as a matter of fact, I wish the same for myself. :-) Best wishes, and thanks again for your tireless dedication here, Jwrosenzweig 23:37, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Ah well....thanks for trying. :-) Take a gander at Requests for comment/Jwrosenzweig if you want to keep up with where things have headed.  You probably should avoid commenting there, though -- I wouldn't want to give the impression that I was marshaling votes in my defense, as I am sure that CheeseDreams has not made any such attempts herself.  I just thought you might like to read the latest dispute.  If you'd rather not, I'll just see you around.  Best wishes, Jwrosenzweig 23:37, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jesus Background talk page
The talk page is already perhaps 80 kilobytes too long. CheeseDreams persists in summarizing, rather than archiving, old discussion. I archived his summary and he keeps restoring it. This is not a dispute over content, or even process -- it gets to the mechanics of an online encyclopedia. Some servers cannot handle overly long pages and so talk must be archived. I am asking if you can do anything as mediator, but if you feel you cannot I ask for your advice as to what to do -- ask for arbitration? Slrubenstein

Partiality
I no longer feel you are an impartial mediator. Goodbye. CheeseDreams 21:30, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks!
I just wanted to take a moment here to say thank you for stepping up to offer your services as a mediator. Although our mediation did not work out, I really appreciate the effort and time you put into the process. I know being a mediator is not one which normally garners a lot of accolades, or that warm fuzzy feeling of success since it's rarely total, but you should know that a lot of us do appreciate the job you're doing.

- Amgine 05:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Your claim that P52 is evidence of the Gospel of John
here is a link to an image showing the whole of P52. As you can see, it is hardly sufficient evidence that the gospel of John existed at the time P52 is dated to.

Totally convincingly the Gospel of John, obviously. It could be anything.CheeseDreams 13:13, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * So you doubt that a small fragment of text cannot convincingly be proven as belonging to a longer, well-known work -- like the Gospel of John? Jesus wept. -- llywrch 07:32, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

January 15 Seattle meetup
Just wanted to let you know we are planning another Seattle meetup on January 15, 2005. We're trying to get a sense of who will attend, so please drop by that page & leave a note. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

Vote on Main Page intro
Hi Llywrch, there's now a vote on the new Main Page text. Drop by if you can! Ta, Dan100 09:33, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

Could someone please start mediating? - Andre Engels 16:02, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The I Ching & Dark Shadows
Your point, as I understand it, is that the use of the I Ching in Dark Shadows is highly unorthodox. I agree. The I Ching has a venerable tradition in Chinese culture. However, it is also an oracle. (Note: I put a link on the word "oracle," then checked it only to find that the article is woefully deficient and is now on my "to do" list). Oracles have strange and unpredictable powers sometimes. Certainly they can transport you to a future world, if only in the realm of imagination. What I was trying to do with my edit was take out the POV that there was some way of using the I Ching that was "accurate," to the exclusion of others. Those who do use the I Ching properly (i.e., according to its rules of divination) are very likely to become aware of its predictive power. As you note, it is also possible to use it for meditation. Given the range of the various traditions of meditation, time travel is not inconceivable. It is possible that one of the writers for the show was well aware of the I Ching's capacity in this regard. Sunray 20:11, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)

Assyrimenans
Thanks for the catch at Armenian (people). I must have been asleep at the wheel to let that sit there. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:55, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

Barnabas
Thanks for handling the copyvio. I would not yet be confident enough. I left a reply to your comment on its talk page, repeated here for your convenience:

 * Sadly, I support your findings. I shall not be doing any more wiki/copy-editing work on this for now. I have nothing to add to a rewrite. Maybe I will return later.

Peter Hitchmough 23:16, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Just to reply - I'm only put off further work on this as a rewrite would take too much time at present. Other priorities. No problem. Thanks for the note. Dizzley (Peter H) 13:04, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well edited recently. Thanks. Dizzley (Peter H) 09:10, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Trog(l)odytica
Hi, please read my answer to your removal of the L at Talk:Berenice (port). Thanks! Hippalus 07:21, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * I tried to incorporate your/Huntingford's view in the article. Have a look! Plus made some responses on the talk page. By the way, maybe part of the etymology-story should also get a place in the history section of the Tuareg article. I'll leave that job to you ;-). --Hippalus 11:23, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

Images of biblical manuscripts at the Commons
Thanks for letting me know about the images you've uploaded. Have you found articles to showcase them all? I'll see if I can put them to good use.

The Egyptian hiero templates are getting into some order now: please feel free to play with them.
 * Gareth Hughes 00:25, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome message
I'll start watching the PNW Wikipedian pages for a Seattle meetup. Dave Cohoe 05:46, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Prince's Islands
Better late than never. -- Cyrius|✎ 02:20, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Calcutta -> Kolkata name change
Hi there. I noticed you voted in the Naming policy poll to keep the Wikipedia policy of naming an article with the most familiar English name. You may not be aware that another attempt has begun to rename the Calcutta article to Kolkata, which is blatantly not the most common name of the city, whether it's official or not. If you want to vote on the issue you can do so at Talk:Calcutta. Cheers. -- Necrothesp 13:49, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A message to the WikiProject Rivers participants
Would you, please, consider participation in the discussion about the naming of the articles on rivers? Certain users suggested that the word "River" should be omitted from the title. Currently the discussion is held at User talk:Markussep, but it will hopefully be moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rivers soon. Thank you for your attention.—Ëzhiki (erinaceus europeaus) 21:09, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Bring back quickpolls
I think it's time that quickpolls be re-evaluated as a solution to short term disputes between users. What say you? -- R yan!  |  Talk  05:20, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

 * That's what I've tried to do. -- R yan!  |  Talk  05:50, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rivers
Your signature below your (as far as I can judge) perfect paraphrase would make it even better. :-) --Ruhrjung 18:48, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

 * Could you state what you want at: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rivers . Maybe we can all agree on a compromise, on one hand only allowing uppercase (to reduce number of variants) on the other not inforcing X River if X is not ambiguous, thus reducing opposition of non-english-natives. As far as I can see now only Shan and Tobias made clear they would support this medium-approach. Tobias Conradi 23:15, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why did you move Neckar to Neckar River? According to the above mentioned discussion there's nothing wrong with "X" here, because there is nothing ambiguous about "Neckar". Markussep 21:22, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Xfire VfD
I rewrote that article entirely. Please review if you have time. SYSS Mouse

-

Congratulations

 * Also congrant for winning the Half-million pool. SYSS Mouse 16:14, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Darn it - I wanted to be the first to congratulate the winner :) CONGRATULATIONS! --Neo 20:13, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Umm, last time I checked, we were still missing 56 articles. But with the current rate of expansion, it's practically over. The only way anyone else would win would be to avoid adding any new articles for a little over one day. So, premature congratulations, Llywrch! (How is that pronounced, anyway?)   — J I P | Talk 20:16, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Allow me to add the first mature congratulations. It should be official now! — David Remahl 21:04, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Me too. I was monitoring through a sandbox page and it clicked over between 20:53Z and 20:55Z. There was a flood of articles, probably by people all trying to be the one. David Brooks 21:22, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow. I didn't think my guess would be the winning one! -- llywrch
 * So, what's your choice for the Million pool so we can see what's still open near you? hydnjo talk 01:47, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Oops - Never mind. I mis-read and thought that entrys for the Million pool had been extended 'till articles reached 666,666. My error. hydnjo talk 01:53, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Roman Emperors
(congrats too!)

You left a rather contradictory note on my user page: if there is a list of Roman Emperors than it should be clear whether Julius Caesar should be on that list or not. Presently there is some non-NPOV stuff which goes from the supposition that all scholars would agree that the title of princeps is the determining title with which in ancient Rome an "Emperor" was indicated. Well, all scholars do not agree. I couldn't find a single reference to an authoritative scholar who says it is necessarily so (probably there are, but then at least some of those references should be mentioned on the page). The only reference mentioned, Suetonius (which is a very old writer), does not agree, while he clearly includes Julius Caesar as the first of the 12 Caesars (where "Caesar" is the equivalent of "Emperor" in many languages). There is no use in leaving such a confusing message on top of this list.

For me, I don't care where this is discussed, but you trespassed a no-do line by simple erasing what I had written (and which me, as a non-sysop costs more trouble to recuperate than you). You could at least have moved it to Roman Emperor if you think that is where that discussion belongs, and replace the "Julius Caesar" paragraph on "List of Roman Emperors" with something like:
 * "For a discussion whether Julius Caesar is to be considered an Emperor see ((page where you moved it to))"

Thanks!

--Francis Schonken 08:45, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please read the Elagabalus article
I have been working on it for some time now, and would like to nominate for featured status. I'd appreciate it, if given your expertice on Roman History, you would review it. Thanks -JCarriker 15:32, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * I've noticed that you have edited the article, I'd apreciate it if you got back to me with your opinion about the artcile via my talk page. Thanks. -JCarriker 12:24, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * Wow! I haven't been to the featured page in a while, but if it's gotten that bad, then Hatshepsut's going to be hell when Ancient Egypt noms. her as the example artcicle. I'll follow your advice, and get back to you when I'm done referencing. :)

 * I've started several times to put in the inline references but to be honest I just don't have the patience to do it, to use the famous watergate phrase-- at this point in time, to do it. I'm going to ask several users who have edited it before to review it and then nominate it. I hope you aren't upset, as I know it is a cause near and dear to your heart, I'll try to see if I have the patience later or better-- maybe one of the user who reviews it will do it themselves. -JCarriker 02:44, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Quoting style in The Cantos
I'm really sorry, Llywrch. I was in too much of a hurry, and too focused on getting the actual vandalism reverted, and didn't take long enough to look at what you'd done. I did check out the diff—the differences in edit code between your version and the previous one—but stupidly failed to scroll down and see how the changes actully looked on the page; and, in short, I'm afraid I thought it was the usual Britsh/American commas outside quote marks/commas inside quote marks nonsense. (I call that nonsense because both styles are acceptable, because both of them are actually recognized in both countries, because I think Filiocht's original choice of style needs to be respected, and, well, because I think it's a bit pathetic to get so patriotically hung up about the minisculities of inside/outside as some people on both sides of the Atlantic do.) I had no idea it was about italics until I found the discussion at the Pump just now. That weird use of italics for quotes is supposed to be, uh, un-American? I had no idea. I always assumed that was some special wikipedia style, as I have never seen it anywhere else. Thank you for taking the trouble to change it and making the quotes look (to my eyes) much more "normal". It must have been quite disheartening to then have an idiot come along and revert you. :-( I do apologize most unreservedly. (I've restored your version.) --Bishonen|Talk 22:42, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dates
In no way is it a new standard; it's just my playing about with an alternative that I find attractive and that I occasionally slip in on the off-chance it'll catch someone's imagination and spread, like a metaphorically mixed viral wildfire, thru the 'pedia. I also harbor the hope that one day someone will build a datesbot and expand the year pages to such an extent that articles such as April 1822 have to be created. If you find it ugly, useless, intimidating, or against established practice, I extend my apologies and an invitation to be bold. –Hajor 01:51, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Great; let's see what (if anything) happens. –Hajor 02:17, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Llywrch/Archive3


text:
Talk:Marek Malík

Disease/Disorder/Other?
Does Marek Malik have a disease or disorder or something else wrong with him? His face is always twitching and stuff. I've watched him do it in person too. He does it all the time and it seems like he can't control it. --Stang281 18:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Celebration Edit
There was a recent edit about the growth of the hand raise in celebration in acknowledgment of the crowd since Malik's goal. I don't think it deserved to be completely deleted, edited maybe but not deleted as it is a valid point correlationally

The "Harry" Nickname
Malik's been called "Harry" since Hartford. The referenced pieces are actually incorrect. -acidqueen5426 —Preceding undated comment added 00:36, 5 October 2009 (UTC).
 * I've amended the nickname section accordingly, and deleted the links. I realize that Rangers fans think their team is the centre of the hockey universe, but the Rangers players didn't originate the nickname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acidqueen5426 (talk • contribs) 02:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Lack of physical play
Gods, we hated this guy in Springfield - he never hit anyone and kept having brain seizures on the ice, and his informal nickname around the Civic Center was "Stiffo;" the wide perception was that if he'd been 5'11" instead of a big guy, he'd have been lucky to have a job in the UHL. I'll see if I can source the comment.    Ravenswing  07:59, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Malik retires
I added the fact that he retired. Also someone needs to update his playing career. The rest of the stats can be found at hockeydb.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.199.196.61 (talk) 14:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Marek Malík


text:
Talk:Lahti Pelicans

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Sean Avery
Is this worth even listing him under "Notable players"? He only played 2 games for the pelicans during the lock out season. I believe his name should be removed from that category. Norum 00:52, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Lahti Pelicans


text:
Talk:Proof of Wallis product/to do

 * Move the derivation of

\frac{\sin(x)}{x} = \left(1 - \frac{x^2}{\pi^2}\right)\left(1 - \frac{x^2}{4\pi^2}\right)\left(1 - \frac{x^2}{9\pi^2}\right) \cdots $$

to Euler-Wallis formula.

 * Make some effort to justify this derivation, possibly using the PlanetMath article on the Weierstrass factorization theorem.

 * Note how to use this formula to compute

\sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \frac{1}{n^2}. $$

 * A historical account would be nice.

title: Talk:Proof of Wallis product/to do


text:
Talk:2000 in British music

Millennia
See the "Longer periods" section of our Manual of Style:
 * "Centuries and millennia"
 * "There was no year 0. So for dates AD (or CE) the 1st century was 1–100, the 17th century was 1601–1700, and the second millennium was 1001–2000; for dates BC (or BCE) the 1st century was 100–1; the 17th century was 1700–1601, and the second millennium was 2000–1001."

-- A. B. (talk • contribs) 16:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

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 * ✅ Richard3120 (talk) 19:33, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

The Charts section
The charts section of this article has been removed as of 2014.

This never should have happened. I cannot simply hit "undo" due to subsequent edits. To be inkeeping with the series of wikipedia entries to which this belongs, the charts section needs to be replaced. Crimsone (talk) 16:51, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * , a decision was taken that for every year from 2000 onwards the charts section was moved to its own article, in this case 2000 in British music charts, because the parent article was becoming too long. Unfortunately, there are editors who feel the need to provide a detailed chart commentary on each week of the chart, so that even these spin-off articles are becoming insanely long. Richard3120 (talk) 17:26, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Hence the chart summary, as per articles right the way back from the 80's, should be present. Anything more detailed than what the number 1s for singles and albums were is probably overkill, but there's a pattern present in other articles that should be consistent across the subject. Crimsone (talk) 21:32, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with you – I think you can have a section of a couple of paragraphs which gives an overview of the year and any major musical events that occurred that year (e.g. the introduction of downloads to the chart in 2004, or the Spice Girls phenomenon in 1996) but I look at the "summary" in 2014 in British music charts and think "what is the point?"... nobody cares who the highest climber in Week 37 that year was. It's probably something that needs a RfC to determine consensus. Richard3120 (talk) 21:49, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:2000 in British music


text:
Talk:New York Americans

Untitled
I see no reason to merge the entries. It is already the practice that shifted franchises keep their old entries -- cf. the separate entries for the Whalers, the Nordiques, the North Stars, the Jets, etc. -- and technically the Tigers and the Americans were not the same franchise: the New York franchise was granted *before* Hamilton's was revoked. See Charles Coleman's Trail of the Stanley Cup, Vol I. A mention in both articles as to the disposition of Hamilton's players makes sense, but no more than that. Ravenswing 10:40, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * That is fair enough. Basically, I noticed that both articles were stubs and both articles are "almost" the same team. I put the requested merger up to see what other people thought. I actually agree that they are better as separate articles. Thanks for your insight. I will take down my merger request. Masterhatch 6 August 2005

Fair use rationale for Image:Newyorkamericanslogo30s.gif
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Fair use rationale for Image:Newyorkamericanslogo.gif
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The Iroquois Shelter
The Iroquois and theAlgonquin are a Native Americans living a social life in New York.The Iroquis made —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.195.118.85 (talk) 01:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Please explain Finish column?
Can someone with more knowledge of hockey than me explain the "Finish" column in the season-by-season record? What is meant when it says "Canadian"? For 1925-26 and 1938-39 to 1941-42 it says "NHL", but otherwise it says "Canadian". Weren't the Americans in the NHL their entire existence? Elsquared (talk) 04:55, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The NHL Americans were located in New York but played in the NHL's "Canadian Division" while the Rangers (who shared MSG with the Amerks) were in the NHL's "American Division". Centpacrr (talk) 05:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * And, of course, the "NHL" entry recognizes the fact that, reduced from eight teams to seven, the league no longer had divisions. (How ironic that the team named "Americans" was the one U.S.-based team left out of the "American Division"!) WHPratt (talk) 19:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:New York Americans


text:
Talk:Montreal Wanderers

Little Men of Iron
Article referred to Wanderers as "Little Men of Iron." However, according to the Hockey Hall of Fame website, this was the name of the 1902 Montreal AAA team. Another source is Ultimate Hockey by Glenn Weir, Jeff Chapman and Travis Weir (Toronto: Stoddart, 1999). On page 44, an essay on the Montreal AAA of 1902 is headed "The Little Men of Iron." Munson66 22:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Upon further review, Total Hockey (2nd edition, 2000) mentions on page 242 that the Wanderers raided the Montreal AAA team known as the "Little Men of Iron," so "the nickname was applied frequently to the Wanderers."Munson66 22:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Wanderers played only four games
As noted in the source cited in my footnote, the Wanderers are credited in NHL record books with one win and five losses, but they only actually played four games before the Montreal/Westmount Arena burned down in January 1918. Games scheduled for January 2 and January 5 against Toronto and the Canadiens were recorded as defaults. Note that none of the Wanderer players is credited with playing a fifth or sixth game for that team. Harry Hyland, Dave Ritchie, Jack McDonald, Phil Stevens, Bert Lindsay, Gerry Geran and George O'Grady all are credited with only 4 GP. The source for this data: www.hockeydb.com - Munson66 10:44, March 20, 2007 (UTC)

Season GP W L T Pts GF GA   1917-18  6 1 5 0  2  17 35

 * Link to won/lost record on www.hockeydb.com. Flibirigit (talk) 10:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Montreal Wanderers


text:
Talk:Cleveland Barons

Disambiguation
I've just changed this to a disambiguation page leading to the NHL Barons, the original AHL Barons and the most recent addition. RGTraynor 18:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I nominated relevant categories for renaming and fixed a few links. ccwaters 01:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Oh... and I do plan on populating the player category eventually. I've been doing it slowly by current NHL team rosters and haven't made it out of the East yet. I'll hold off on the Sharks until this one is moved. ccwaters 01:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cleveland Barons


text:
User:James652

I am James. I have a love for people of all races, religions and backgrounds. When people say that religion has made this world an evil place, I say nonsense! Evil human hearts have made this world an evil place. People who desire to practice evil will practice it whether they are in a religion or not. That goes for atheists, mulsims, christians, hindus, buddhists, etc., etc. Let us not be so ignorant to think that if all religion was erased from society, that evil would be also.

title: User:James652


text: User talk:222.166.160.193

title: User talk:222.166.160.193


text:
Talk:Hamilton Tigers

Untitled
I see no reason to merge the entries. It is already the practice that shifted franchises keep their old entries -- cf. the separate entries for the Whalers, the Nordiques, the North Stars, the Jets, etc. -- and technically the Tigers and the Americans were not the same franchise: the New York franchise was granted *before* Hamilton's was revoked. See Charles Coleman's Trail of the Stanley Cup, Vol I. A mention in both articles as to the disposition of Hamilton's players makes sense, but no more than that.   Ravenswing   03:33, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * That is fair enough. Basically, I noticed that both articles were stubs and both articles are "almost" the same team. I put the requested merger up to see what other people thought. I actually agree that they are better as separate articles. Thanks for your insight. I will take down my merger request. Masterhatch 6 August 2005

Improving the article
I live in Hamilton and I've actually researched the Hamilton Tigers franchise to a certain extent and I feel that the article is lacking in some respects, the author perhaps not having access to contemporary newspaper articles about the Tigers; I'd like to make wholesale corrections, but I know that these will just be deleted or altered, so I couldn't be bothered. However, I wanted to point out a few things: the supposed Tigers' head logo is, as far as I can determine, was used only during the 1922-23 season; the standard logo was the H with TIGERS through the bar on the H. The Tigers' head logo, incidently, was used following the demise of the Tigers franchise by Hamilton's senior OHA team. As for the Tiger's official colours, I can't recall any of the newspaper articles about the Tigers that I've read ever stating anything about the uniforms having either orange or white on them. The team's colours were black and yellow.
 * I am very open minded to change and if you were to change the article to make it more accurate, I wouldn't revert or alter. I was one of the primary writers of this article and honestly, I have never been to Hamilton nor do I have a lot of access to information about the Tigers. I expanded this article with information that I found on the Internet (and we all know how reliable that is, eh?). If you could come in and add more and fix any errors, I would be very thankful. So, be bold and make some great changes! Of course, if you are worried about your edits being reverted, then cite a source and then you won't have to worry about that. Masterhatch 06:19, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Wholesale edits that come with cites and sources don't get reverted. Now as it happens, contemporary sources are available -- I've a number myself, and sooner or later (for instance) will get around to changing the persistent fiction that the New York Americans are the relocated Americans rather than Dwyer buying out the old players from a revoked franchise, as happened with Chicago and Detroit.  (Heck, why not now?)  Ravenswing 10:23, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I removed the logo provided because it was a poor replica of the original. I am trying to upload a copy of the H logo but am having difficulty doing so--it's the only logo floating around that looks like the original. Hopefully someone else can have more success than me.

Jersey Colours
I am from Hamilton (born and raised) and there's an avid sports card amd memorabilia collector in town named Leo Savelli that use to have an origianl Hamilton Tigers game worn jersey hanging from the front window of his store. I remember as a kid staring at that jersey and it was black-and-yellow not black-and-orange.

The next question now I have to ask myself is 'Was that actually an original Tigers jersey he had or a fake? The second thing I personally recall is roughly 10-years ago having a discussion with a neighbour of mine who since then has passed away and he told me that when he was a kid his father use to take him down to the Barton street Arena to watch the Hamilton Tigers and he told me that the jersey colours were in fact Black-and-Gold and not Black-and-Yellow. Gold as in mid range between yellow and orange.

The next thing that comes to mind for me regarding the jerseys are the Tigers played in an Era when there was no TV and not that many photographs were taken of the players back then like today and the very few photos we do have of these Tigers' players are in black-and-white which doesn't help matters here.

The next area I looked into when I started researching the history of the Hamilton Tigers roughly 10-years ago was I payed a visit to the local Hamilton Public Library in the History department (3rd-floor) and looked through some old micro film of newspaper articles from the 1920s. Today Hamilton has one daily newspaper called the Hamilton Spectator but back then Hamilton was a 3-newspaper town and most of the information that I was able to track down on the Hamilton Tigers came from The Hamilton Herald. In the instances that I was able to find where it stated the teams jersey colours they were described as being "black and gold."

I'll have more too add to this on a later date when I get copy of actual articles describing the Tigers' jersey colours. Nhl4hamilton 4:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've seen a color plate of the jersey, but it's an artist's rendition done in the 1960s, for what it's worth. The plate supports your finding of "gold" as in a somewhat orangey yellow.  Ravenswing 18:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * OK sounds good. Thanks Nhl4hamiltonNhl4hamilton 06:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Hamilton Tigers Logos
I removed the fake Hamilton Tigers logos from the article. Please visit the 3 links below for the authentic logo designs that were used on the Hamilton Tigers jerseys of the 1920s:

 * Mickey Roach, Hamilton Tigers
 * Hamilton Tigers (c. 1920; 20??)
 * Hamilton Tigers Jersey Images

Thanks Nhl4hamilton 15:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Here's a more specific link to the blog that discusses the fake Hamilton Tigers logos. http://hamiltontigers.blogspot.com/2006_10_01_archive.html

Nhl4hamilton 19:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Hamilton Tigers (1921) Team Logo.gif
Image:Hamilton Tigers (1921) Team Logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Hamilton's Hockey Tigers
There is a book published for the Christmas market in 2005 by Sam Wesley (his dad David got co-writer credit, but did little work on it). A forward is written by Don Cherry and it is published by Lorimar. Whatever research and interviews could be done, are present in this book. As the players and owners have passed on, the interviews were primarily with their family members, and fans who were young enough to remember the Tigers, but are still alive. There are not many photos, but perhaps I can get permission and scan them for this article. Nacken (talk) 05:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)nackenNacken (talk) 05:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Mm, there's probably a good bit of info we could stand to have in the article.   Ravenswing  14:39, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Founded in 1878, making the correct Chinese Zodiac sign
The Hamilton Tigers are founded in 1878, what would have been the year of the Earth Tiger.

Maybe they look a little evil on the bad side according to Monkey-born people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.108.138.88 (talk) 15:49, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hamilton Tigers


text:
Talk:The Kreutzer Sonata

non-person?
Doesn't the wife have a name in the novel? Or is she a non-person only in this article? 4.249.63.30 (talk) 18:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Additions
I added the info box to bring this article's formatting in like with Tolstoy's other pages and also added categories. In addition I moved a few pictures and added some images from the 1906 Broadway adaptation. I plan to add additional info about the British Library's discovery of the Clandestine editions of the novella in the next few days as well as better references. I just wanted to give a heads up on the talk page. Feel free to contact me with any notes/concerns.ÇaCestCharabia (talk) 01:18, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The Mimeographed version in Russia
I have just put down the British Penguin Classics edition of the novella (translated and introduced by David Duff) and it seemed to come a long way away from the sentence here that reads: "After the work had been forbidden in Russia by the censors, a mimeographed version was widely circulated." The introduction to David Duff's edition goes into pages of detail of how the penultimate version of the novella was leaked without Tolstoy's knowledge and it was this version of the book which was read widely across Russia and beyond before Tolstoy's final version was even finished. The final (ninth) version was initially banned, but it got its first semi-official publication only, with the Tsar's direct permission, if it was printed as a part of Tolstoy's complete works... The whole story's there in this Penguin Classics edition for anyone who wants to correct this part of the Wikipedia page... 2.27.99.187 (talk) 20:03, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Authorities
Roosevelt had nothing to do with literary criticism, so I don't see why his opinion is notable. And I think that to the straw man by Chesterton other arguments by other writers & critics ought to be added, to keep balance. Though I assume that difference of approaches to literature in Russia and in Anglo-Saxon countries prevents mutual understanding, especially understanding by Anglo-Saxon critiques of Russian literature (because they have lesser incentive to be versed in it), still I think that adding more commentary is both useful for keeping spectre of opinions and more in line with principles of Wikipedia. - 92.100.164.235 (talk) 14:54, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Kreutzer Sonata


text:
GWT

GWT may refer to:
 * Gawar-Bati language
 * Given-When-Then
 * Global workspace theory in cognitive science
 * God's Word Translation, an English Bible translation
 * Google Web Toolkit, or GWT Web Toolkit
 * Great Western Trail, in North America
 * Great Western Trains, now Great Western Railway
 * Gross Weight Tonnage, a nautical measurement
 * G-TELP Writing Test, English language test
 * Guided wave testing
 * The Gurkha Welfare Trust, a British charity
 * Gwent Wildlife Trust, in Wales
 * Sylt Airport, in Germany, by its IATA Code

title: GWT


text: User talk:212.139.208.240

title: User talk:212.139.208.240


text:
Talk:Houston Aeros (1994–2013)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Houston Aeros (WHA) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Houston Aeros (1994–2013)


text:
Woodhouse Eaves

Woodhouse Eaves is a village in the Borough of Charnwood, Leicestershire, England.

Nearby are the villages of Quorn, Swithland, and Newtown Linford. Breakback Road leads from the village to Nanpantan and Loughborough.

The church of St Paul is a granite building with a slate roof, constructed to the designs of William Railton in 1837 and extended by Ewan Christian in 1880.

Notable people

 * Former Nottingham Forest, Leicester City, Southampton and England goalkeeper Peter Shilton lived in Woodhouse Eaves.
 * Tennis player Katie Boulter.

title: Woodhouse Eaves


text: Talk:Miami Screaming Eagles

title: Talk:Miami Screaming Eagles


text: User talk:203.190.152.52

title: User talk:203.190.152.52


text: User talk:210.17.201.22

title: User talk:210.17.201.22


text: Talk:Amarillo Gorillas

title: Talk:Amarillo Gorillas


text:
Talk:Buffalo Bisons

Of note?
It is of note that the plural form of bison is bison, not bisons.

This is "of note"? Why? The article on the Toronto Maple Leafs doesn't mention that the proper plural form is really "leaves." This bit of grammar pedantry seems to be completely irrelevant to the topic. I'm removing it.96.246.74.250 (talk) 00:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)Matt
 * I never liked it and always meant to remove it  but never  got around to it. I also don't like the "how locals pronounce it" part. I'm a local, but who cares how I pronounce it?! It's a page for a baseball team, not a grammar lesson. Jc121383 (talk) 18:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Ice hockey?
Why did this have the ice hockey template?--Kevin 19:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

there used to be a minor league hockey team named the buffalo bisons- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.243.176.163 (talk) 00:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Stub?
Why is this article a stub? I think this has sufficient information without it being labeled a stub. If you're going to label it period, maybe it needs to be cleaned up a bit. --Kevin 19:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Franchise history
Does anyone know the lineage of the *current* Buffalo Bisons franchise (including the leagues they were in)? --Leshii 14:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

And does anyone realize that the article points out 7 championships before 1979, but says basically nothing at all about the Bisons pre-1979? Even though the article says "The current incarnation of the Bisons was founded in 1979", it comes off really weird without ever saying anything more about the Bisons pre-1979 history. Anyone know anything about the older Bisons?--24.169.143.244 22:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree with above
This does need to be cleaned up. There should be at least three different articles rather than the one long article. The current Bisons were the Wichita Aeros, already a AAA team when they moved. So the 1979 team either moved or ceased to exist, making the statement cited by Leshii incorrect.

Most other teams who moved are treated as the same team and refer back to previous versions in other cities.

There is a lot of confusion with minor league baseball teams and relocations. Each city wants to treat teams exclusively as its own with no prior or subsequent history.Theknightswhosay 19:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Re-assessed
I dropped this to a "C", for the following reasons. Under the six criteria that an article needs to meet the "B" level, I believe it fails to meet #1 - it is not suitably referenced, #2 and #6 - the article is confusing in that this minor league franchise began in 1979, but uses a different Bisons' franchise as this one's history. A separate article will need to be created for each of the Bisons' teams for true accuracy. Neonblak talk  -  18:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Baseball assessment comment
Substituted at 14:17, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Would the Junior World Series count as a class title?
Under the minor league titles, does an overall title count for 1961 because the Bisons won the Junior World Series over the Louisville Colonels that year? I'm curious to know what you guys think about this. Some pages on here (for example: the Evansville Triplets of 1975) has it count as a class title but on here it does not. Thanks. --James161723 (talk) 19:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC), edited at 21:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Buffalo Bisons


text:
Talk:Jacksonville Barracudas

Untitled
I can't verify that the trainer and equipment manager are the same in 2007 as in 2006. Frondelet 16:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jacksonville Barracudas


text:
Talk:Peterborough Petes

Time to Split Article?
Should all the stats, alumni, etc be placed a separate page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Themepark (talk • contribs) 04:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * NO. 35 Kilobytes is actually quite small compared to other hockey team articles. Flibirigit (talk) 08:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

-- ya - but think of anyone who wants to print this off - Either you want the History or the Stats. The stats are good, but that's secondary information. I vote for a split.

about PMC picture
that is the mem. centre before they re-did the inside. if you want, i can send you an updated picture of it

 * Yes, I am aware it is a photo before the renovation. I uploaded it! If you would like add another please upload another. Thanks. Flibirigit 21:26, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Peterborough Petes


text:
Talk:Guelph Storm

Fair use rationale for Image:Guelphstorm.gif
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 * Fair use rationale completed Flibirigit 05:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Old guelph storm logo.gif
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 *  Fair use rationale completed. Flibirigit (talk) 04:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Guelph Storm


text:
Talk:Albany River Rats

Change name = New team??
I gave the Rats a founded date of 1993, but they previously skated in the same market as the CD Isles. That lineage is mentioned twice in the current revision (I hope someone will come along and give us a better History write up). Does that suffice? I would like to give the CD Isles their own page after I make it through the current teams. ccwaters 23:28, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * You put the date the original team was founded, in this case it's 1990. When teams move, it doesn't change the date they were founded, just changes the location and/or name. If it's still the same franchise, then it's still the same founding date. Bsroiaadn 09:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Notable NHL'ers?
didn't anyone who went on to a notable nhl career ever play for them, and doesn't that deserve mention? i think that should be a feature of all minor league team articles in all sports.Toyokuni3 (talk) 21:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

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Rude-E the first EVIL mascot in the history of professional spo
Rude-E was the first evil mascot in the history of professional sports. Despite poor on ice performances during the early 2000s, James I. Chapman created the first “evil” mascot in the history of professional sports, “Rude-E” in 2002. The Albany River Rats now had 2 team mascots, the original, fun loving, kind, omnipotently cheerful ROWDY and the terrible, fan harassing, team hating Rude-E. 2603:7081:2F03:96C8:84DA:1C04:29F2:F423 (talk) 21:10, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Albany River Rats


text:
Talk:Mississippi Sea Wolves

Apologies for the lack of formatting, this is my first time using the talk page on a Wikipedia article.

I suggest making a separate page for the Mississippi Sea Wolves FPHL expansion franchise set to play in the 2022-23 season, and leaving this one as Mississippi Sea Wolves (ECHL). Similar precedent exists in the two separate pages for the Louisiana IceGators (one for the ECHL team and one for the later revival.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tjezzyyjezz (talk • contribs) 11:11, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

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Talk:Manchester Storm (1995–2002)

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text:
Talk:Wheeling Nailers

Sudden Death Participation
Can anyone find any back sources that claim that the players for the Chiefs and Nailers were used in the movie Sudden Death? The Wikipedia article for Sudden Death (film) states that they came from the defunct Cleveland Lumberjacks and comes with citations.--Pennsylvania Penguin (talk) 13:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Notable Nailers
There isn't really a clear standard of notability. I suggest changing it to a list of former Nailers that made it to the NHL.Saunders1407 (talk) 16:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Main Rival
Well, since the Johnstown Chiefs are now the Greenville Road Warriors, I no longer think they would qualify as the main rival. Any ideas on which team to replace them with? Cincinnati? Toledo? Ap William (talk) 22:41, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say "none." It's not precisely an issue on which a vote can be taken and a new one elected.   Ravenswing  02:29, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Wheeling/Johnstown
Does anybody know why Johnstown (or any city, for that matter) was used as an "alternate venue" for the Nailers? Was this an exploratory move (i.e. the team wanted to move out of Wheeling)? Was Wesbanco just unavailable? I think maybe the article should touch upon that, if possible. I know I'm unclear. YellowAries2010 (talk) 15:32, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

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Talk:Rochester Americans

Year-by-Year Scratch
Finished and transfered to article ccwaters 14:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm done
Somebody please skim through all those stats and look for errors. The rows blend together after a while. Keep an eye on Miller and Noronen. Either can claim some goalie records if they get ice time in Rochester (I think they both have 15 shutouts). The records are A LOT easier when the team posts a media guide on their website :). Anyone know where I can find a similar resource for Hershey?? ccwaters 21:18, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Ironic team records
Isn't it ironic that all of the records for a team called the Americans are held by Canadians? Truthanado 02:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Yikes, what a mess.
It's a crying shame that an article about this storied team has devolved into this turgid, unformatted mess. I'm going to start shoveling. CC, want in on it?  Ravenswing  20:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for chipping in. It's been on my list for a while. Flibirigit 21:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Affiliaitons
"They entered the AHL in 1956-57 and were affiliated with both the Montreal Canadiens and the Toronto Maple Leafs of the National Hockey League. Following the 1960-61 season Montreal severed there working agreement with the Amerks. From 1961-68 the Americans were the exclusive affiliate of the Toronto Maple Leafs."
 * Cut and paste removed text from article. Saving until a table can be created. Flibirigit 15:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * is this stuff a copyvio?? ccwaters 20:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Google doesn't respond with any permutations of it.   Ravenswing  01:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The Amerks WERE the affiliate of both the Habs and the Leafs. Montreal left in '61 and the Leafs were the parent until 1968. I know these facts are true. I was a huge fan in those years and I later worked for the company that outfitted the team. Check out Blaise Lanphier's book about the Americans called "The Americans Tradition" by Arcadia Publishing. TGProctor 4/19/07 8:07 EST — Preceding unsigned comment added by TGProctor (talk • contribs) 12:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

 * That's Hockey in Rochester The Americans' Tradition, Author(s): Blaise M. Lamphier ISBN: 0738536946. Proctor: please cite your contributions to the article. This is an encyclopedia article: we can't take your word for it. ccwaters 12:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Lamphier's book tells you that the Amerks were initially an affiliate of the Leafs and Habs. Page 54 of the book shows congratulatory ads from both parent clubs in the initial Amerks' program. On page 86 he tells of the retirement of Gamble's No. 9 jeresy and the retirement of Gage's No. 9. On page 87 he tells of Armstrong's death and the retirement of his No. 6 jersey. I'm rather new to this site. Sorry that I didn't do it in your way. But I do have a wealth of knowledge about the Amerks from '59-'68 in my head.

TGProctor 18:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)TGProctor 4/19/07 2:34 PM EST

General Manager
I don't agree with this edit. The listed source doesn't even mention the term "General Manager", so I don't see how it supports listing Gage and Nolan as GMs. Powers T 14:50, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Oldest teams
Actually, there are two more franchises older than the Amerks; the Peoria Rivermen, which have the original Springfield Indians franchise, and the Hartford Wolf Pack, which has the original Providence Reds franchise.  Ravenswing  01:40, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Rochester Americans


text:
Talk:South Carolina Stingrays

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 16:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This article was assessed as Start class for WikiProject Ice Hockey due to significant expansion since the above date. Further information is required and desired. Cjmclark (talk) 04:55, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

This article assessed as B class for WikiProject Ice Hockey, WikiProject District of Columbia, and WikiProject South Carolina based on significant expansion and cleanup since the above date. Cjmclark (talk) 21:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Team history
I've been mining the Post and Courier archives for info to supplement the team history. If anyone digs anything up there or elsewhere, please feel free to help me flesh it out a bit. Cjmclark (talk) 04:01, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Linked articles
Major help is needed in developing linked articles, especially for players who meet the notability requirements for WikiProject Ice Hockey per WP:HOCKEY/PPF. Mark Bavis, David Seitz, and Brett Marietti in particular require articles. Cjmclark (talk) 21:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Hockey Night in Dixie
After editing the title of this book in the references, I realized that it was published with two different subtitles. In the US, it was released with the subtitle Playing Canada's Game in the American South, while it was published in Canada with the subtitle Minor Pro Hockey in the American South. Both were published by Heritage House under the same ISBN in 2006. I have restored the title to include the Canadian subtitle as originally used. The only edit that stands is the author's name, which is Jon C. Stott vice Scott.  Cjmclark  15:23, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Team name origin
A reference is needed for the sentence in "The early years" claiming the team's name was selected by a local naming contest. The name of the individual who allegedly won is questionably notable at best. I have not been able to find a supporting reference and will be removing the sentence tomorrow if one cannot be found.  Cjmclark (Contact) 21:37, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, so I'm a bit behind. 5 days have passed and I have been unable to find a supporting reference. The editor who added the sentence has not provided one subsequent to my attempt at making contact (as much as anyone can with an IP address). Additionally, the name of the contest winner is not particularly relevant to the topic, IMO. I have removed the unverified claim due to it not meeting WP:Verifiability and WP:NOR.  Cjmclark (Contact) 16:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Franchise age
The Stingrays are the seventh-oldest operating franchise in the ECHL, not the fourth. They are surpassed by Wheeling (originally Carolina Thunderbirds, founded 1988), Greenville (originally Johnstown Chiefs, founded 1988), Utah (originally Virginia Lancers, founded 1988), Stockton (originally Cincinnati Cyclones, founded 1990), Reading (originally Columbus Chill, founded 1991) and Toledo (originally Toledo Storm, founded 1991). They were founded the same year (1993) as the Huntington Blizzard (now Ontario Reign). The current Cincinnati Cyclones are not a direct descendant of the original (founded in 1990); rather, they originated as the Louisville River Frogs in 1995. All of this is a bit too convoluted to explain in the lead and is probably not really germane to the article as a whole (as seventh oldest franchise is not particularly distinguishing). As such, I have removed it.  Cjmclark (Contact) 02:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Fan template
Is there a template for users that are fans of the team? Allen (talk) 11:34, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You mean like this userbox?

 * Just add to your userpage.   Cjmclark (Contact) 22:02, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I didn't know where to find it. I'm going to put it on my page now. Allen (talk) 23:41, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:South Carolina Stingrays