text:
Talk:Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda link allegations/Archive 1

Things to add
I know this is very incomplete. Some stuff to add...

 * 9/11 Commission Report
 * Doug Feith letter
 * more official statements
 * criticisms
 * make names and places (and dates?) into wiki links

ObsidianOrder 04:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

LOL. Add this to your list:

 * Refutations of each one of these, as published by the 911 Commission, most major newspapers, and confirmed by the conclusions of nearly every intelligence agency on earth.

Seriously, this is a laugh. Nearly everything on your timeline is sourced from Weekly Standard, Washington Times, and other right wing publications. There's even a freerepublic link or two. Worse, the points made are innacurate, distorted, and completely counter to every bit of common sense (not to mention intelligence information) that we have. Meetings are cited that didn't take place, and many of your claims are based on Michael Moore-worthy innuendo. This crap has been refuted over and over again by legitimate journalists, but of course people keep perpetuating the claim because it serves their political interest. So now ObsidianOrder has copied his web page here, making us refute these mostly inaccurate statements one by one.

And WTF is up with the title of this page?? I looked at this a couple hours ago and it was something else. The current name is terrible but I guess it makes a point. But direct refutation might make the point more, umm, directly.

Anyway, thanks for wasting everyone's time, OO. I plan to refute this crap line by line over the next few months and hopefully anyone else researching this topic will join in. Eventually this page will be a snopes-style refutation of this tired and overplayed argument. --csloat 09:07, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I copied my page, since it is the most complete synopsis of this type you will find. I hereby donate it to Wikipedia ;) By all means, if you can refute them, do so.  I am genuinely interested in this, and I don't think it's a waste of time.  I have also researched it in depth and have found substantial refutations for only a couple of claims (which are not in this list, although perhaps they should be together with the refutation).  There is no innuendo, only the (alleged) facts stated in the most concise, factual way I could, with a source for each.  "right wing publications"?  You mean The Guardian, PBS and Ney Yorker?  Damn, I didn't know those were right wing.  (btw the freerepublic link simply cites a Evening Standard article).  As for the title, well, people keep moving it around :-/  What title do you propose?  ObsidianOrder 09:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Weekly Standard and the other pubs I named are right wing. You're right the ones you name here are not, but they are not where most of these claims come from. I'm not going to mess with the title -- I think "alleged" should stay, but I'm not going to fight the issue, because I think the substantive issues are more important. It will take me a while but as I've been researching this I have seen answers to most of this, so I will find them and link them and so forth, and then this will be, as you say, the most complete synopsis on this issue. --csloat 10:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This article disgusts on a few levels:
 * First of all, the title, without a hint of the ambiguous or unsubstantiated nature of the alleged links.
 * Then, there's the single line "It is important to note that not all of these claims are credible or can be substantiated with other evidence." Excuse me, but if that is the case, what the heck are those claims doing in the article?
 * Last, there's the luscious overarc of the article... justification for the 'war on terror' being one that requires no distinction between Iraq and Afghanistan, Syria or Saudi. It might well be titled 'The artificially constructed justification for a neverending war on terror' and include a section on how 75% of FOX viewers honestly believe in this connection (and WMD's having been found in Iraq) despite the absolute absence of credible evidence.
 * This article is an embarrassment to the Wikipedia that dwarfs most POV disputes or content edit wars I've seen. It's an assemblage of broken baubles. I recommend it be merged/purged with the content at Misinformation_and_rumors_about_the_September_11,_2001_attacks and September_11,_2001_attacks-- RyanFreisling @ 01:40, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Perhaps just "Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda" would be a better title. I think the text of the article points out that there have been no real links established and that the meetings that may or may not have taken place do not constitute meaningful cooperation with al Qaeda in any sense.--csloat 02:00, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The problem is, it reads like a river of untruth punctuated by disclaimers. That is far from acceptable writing. The narrative should be based on a river of truth, with tangents of ambiguity. -- RyanFreisling @ 02:08, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

uncited 9/11 "link" is POV
ObsidianOrder, you claim the 9/11 link is for visual timeline, that is ridiculous, the SUPER POV implication is that Iraq had something to do with 9/11, you can't include that without a citation. Separately, I am still surprised a DS9 fan such as yourself had the full details on all the anti anti-war arguments including the pentagon's usage of banned weapons (such as phosphorus projectile weapons) but I will save that for another article and another time. Why do you seemingly defend the U.S. military POV so ardently and have all the counter arguments ready at your immediate disposal? zen master   T  06:02, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * zen - it would appear that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 given all the meetings between the hijackers and Iraqi intelligence agents, but whether it was significant or not is quite another matter. a "9/11 comission report" section (which I haven't written yet) really should be added to this article and repeat exactly what the report said about that.  we have no proof (at least not declassified), however we do have some highly suggestive circumstantial evidence.  during the cold war people acted on far slimmer evidence.
 * "anti-anti-war" - heh. why do I have the views that I do? probably because I get a lot of my information from reliable sources who're close to/in the action.  you may not believe it, but I am not a blind supporter of US policy no matter what it may be (see e.g. ).   ObsidianOrder 06:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * question: aside from listing the 9/11 date in the timeline, what is the POV you see here? also, what are the factual inacuracies? ObsidianOrder 06:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The whitehouse has annoucned that Iraq was not involved with 9/11. zen master   T  06:42, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * source? how exactly was that worded?  ObsidianOrder 06:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Here is bi-partisan commission concluding no operational links between Iraq and Al Qaeda I think the title of this article is inaccurate/POV, should be "Non-operational links between Al-Qaeda and pre-invasion Iraq".  Oh and here is link by Iraq health minister concluding the U.S. used banned weapons in Falluja.   Have you seen the movie Control Room?  It's good. zen master    T  07:22, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * "napalm gas, a poisonous cocktail of polystyrene and jet fuel that makes the human body melt ... the world’s deadliest weapon" - you expect me to take this crap seriously? napalm is not a gas and it is not poisonous.  as for deadliest, well, come on.  the restrictions on the use of incendiaries are detailed here  and the US has apparently complied with them, even though it is not a signatory to that treaty.  ObsidianOrder 07:53, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The point is they are illegal to used, banned weapons. You failed to mention phosphorus projectile weapons? zen master    T  07:57, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * "illegal" and "banned" by what law and by whom, exactly? If you are thinking of Geneva Protocol III, that is not an outright ban on incendiaries, merely restrictions on their use, and incidentally the US is not a signatory to it, although it does comply with it in practice.  WP is just another incendiary, what is your point? ObsidianOrder 11:00, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

please discuss before moving
Tony, I'd appreciate it if you at least talked the move over before doing it. I disagree, I'd say the "alleged" part is pretty well covered in the text (although of course you can help improve that). Some links between Iraq and Al-Qaeda almost certainly exist, whether or not they are significant and whether or not there are links with 9/11 is a different question. Even if you really don't believe any such thing exists - have a look at Loch Ness Monster (hint: it's not the Alleged creature living in Loch Ness). I will undo the move, if you really insist on such a move, let's talk it over and then to go through Requested moves. ObsidianOrder 07:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Update: I was not aware that it is possible to revert a move as long as it was back to an existing redirect without an edit history, so I messed that up by editing the "Links between Al-Qaeda and Iraq" page. Sorry. I moved back to the closest thing possible. Let's avoid any further move craziness, shall we? If you really want to do a move, please (a) propose your favorites here (b) talk it over until we have a small set of possibilities (c) post those on Requested moves and wait for the vote. Okay? ObsidianOrder 11:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How about "Alleged Links between Iraq and al Qaeda"? Also, since the title is Iraq, not Saddam, this should include information about al Qaeda's new freedom of operation in post-Saddam Iraq.--csloat 17:00, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Well chaps, don't forget to vote on the move. Results of WP:RM discussions are normally regarded as conclusive--until someone WP:RM's the article somewhere else.

 * By the way I'll assume that someone else is going to take care of actually sourcing each claim and noting what evaluations have been put on them by various agencies and independent intelligence analysts. This wouldn't be much of an encyclopedia article if those claims were represented as unequivocally factual. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 20:51, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * They are not presented as unequivocally factual. There are already sources for each claim (although I'd like to see something more detailed in the article itself, like "claimed by X, as reported by Y on Z date").  Evaluations, absolutely, that would be good.  ObsidianOrder 21:38, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What happened to Alleged links between Al-Qaeda and pre-invasion Iraq?
That title is/was better. zen master   T  07:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * What happened is that Tony jumped in and moved the page without talking it over. You want to move it, go through the regular procedure.  I am strongly opposed, since the weight of evidence suggests some links exist (even if only in the form of diplomatic feelers).  ObsidianOrder 07:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I liked Tony's version but I went one better with Alleged non-operational links between Al-Qaeda and pre-invasion Iraq, the citation for that is above, the congressional bipartisan commission concluded unanimously that there were "no operational links".  Which actually means this article should be deleted, not renamed, but I digress.  zen master    T  07:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Training, diplomatic connections, funding, sanctuary, etc are "links" which are "non-operational". There is no alleged operational (i.e. joint op) link in the whole list. ObsidianOrder 09:00, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Both you and Tony have done controversial moves which would obviously be opposed without either talking about them or going through the procedure for doing a move, in effect relying on the fact that such a move is not immediately undoable because of the created redirect page. This is very much in bad faith. I will get an admin to restore the status quo ante and then you can go to Requested moves where you can propose alternatives for the title so that everyone has a chance to discuss them and vote. ObsidianOrder 09:00, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I just read this section after making my comment above (in things to do). I think "Alleged links between al Qaeda and Iraq" is fine. The "non-operational" thing is mumbo jumbo; that should be added to the intro - the fact that the 911 Commission established (conclusively I might add) that there were no operational links. What's interesting is OO talking about bad faith here yet in the above comment indicates that the sum of the Iraq-alQ connection is probably "only in the form of diplomatic feelers." If that is the case, why is that not stated plainly at the beginning of the article? I suspect that OO is well aware that most of these claims are BS but is putting them out there anyway because they support his political position -- they are throwaway arguments. But perhaps he really believes all this stuff. Anyway I suggest that this page can be made much better not only with point by point refutation but also with key statements of the conclusions of major organizations and committees that have actually studied this. I also think there should be a section specifically discussing this as part of the discredited "state sponsorship" theory of terrorism that was nonsense back in the mid-90s when Laurie Mylroie (perhaps following in the footsteps of Claire Sterling) put it forth with regard to the WTC bombing and is still nonsense now. In my very-POV and not-so-humble opinion, this thoroughly refuted theory is the biggest obstacle we have to real counterterrorism in the 21st century. --csloat 09:24, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * csloat - I don't think it was just diplomatic feelers, I said that there is overwhelming evidence that (at a minimum) such existed, therefore there is a link, although the extent of it is debatable. Put forth all the evidence and let everyone decide for themselves.  The 911 Commission report is interesting, but it is not the last word on the subject, and it does not say what most people who use it to support their points claim it says.  And yes, a summary of its findings is probably the top thing that should be added to this article.  As for state sponsorship, I think it was actually van Creveld that first stated the notion of "sanctuary" as a prerequisite for an insurgency, it applies just as well to terrorism, and I don't think you can refute it because it is obviously correct (also see ).  ObsidianOrder 10:04, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The state sponsorship thesis does not apply to al Qaeda and similar groups. "Sanctuary" comes from failed states, not from states with strong central authorities (since such groups are a big threat to such states). Failed states - or areas of near-anarchy - are where such groups thrive, hence their extensive bases in Afghanistan, and their pervasiveness in places like parts of pakistan, yemen, and even northern Iraq when it was under US/UK control with the no-fly zones.  And the theory that al Qaeda specifically was sponsored by a state has been refuted over and over in counterterrorism literature, despite the crap that is published in trade paperbacks like Mylroie's book.  So van Creveld's theory is not "obviously correct" here; it doesn't apply at all; al Qaeda is not an "insurgency" unless you consider it a global insurgency -- one that specifically pits itself against such states as Hussein's, which it was considered a threat to (legitimately so since it wanted to overthrow them).--csloat 10:38, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * "global insurgency" - now that you mention it, yes, that is exactly right. Al-Qaeda operates from sanctuaries just like any insurgency, and all of the states which have served as sanctuaries are part of "The Gap" (as per Thomas Barnett's "The Pentagon's New Map" ).  Yes, some are "failed states", but other are rigidly authoritarian, the two are not as different as you might think.  ObsidianOrder 10:55, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes and according to your logic, the US, UK, and Germany, are among the states who have given terrorists "sanctuary" and "sponsored" al Qaeda. That's the problem here.  There is no state-sponsored organization.  There is an organization who manages to get a variety of sponsorship from a variety of states, without being controlled by any one state.  It makes it very difficult to destroy them; attacking one of the states often plays right into their hands.--csloat 11:21, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * "Sanctuary" is where you're safe from the locals (for example from the police and military) and also protected by them to some extent from external threats. Presumably while in Afghanistan bin Laden was not particularly worried about being arrested by the Taliban, or about them allowing a US snatch team to get to him.  That is hardly true in the US/UK/Germany, obviously. ObsidianOrder 11:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Uh-huh. That's one guy.  We're talking about a large international organization.  But you presumably know that.  Again, my point is that the theory of state sponsorship, where a single state - or a small group of states working together - sponsors the group in order to influence what the group does; in order to use the group as an instrument of policy.  That isn't happening with al Qaeda.  And, to return to your definition of sanctuary, that is most certainly not something al Qaeda as an organization ever had in Iraq prior to 2003.  Now, of course, it is a different matter. --csloat 16:58, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Alleged in title?
So shouldn't the title have Alleged in it? zen master   T  18:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I think this is something that only Requested moves can sort out.

 * My case for "alleged" is that all the information seems to come from undisclosed intelligence sources, and as such is unverifiable. The most we can do under NPOV (ie without taking a stance on the reliability of US intelligence--which would be *extremely* problematic) is say who disclosed it. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:44, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * It's worse than that - a lot of it comes from intelligence sources where the agency who reported the info also announced their conclusions which were that the "links" were not substantial. The intel agencies in question have all concluded that most of these claims are bunk. --csloat 20:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


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Pabna District

Pabna District (পাবনা জেলা) is a district in central Bangladesh. It is an economically important district. Its administrative capital is the eponymous Pabna town.

History
Archeologist Cunningham conjectured that the name "Pabna" might be derived from the Pundra or Poondrobordhon civilisation, whose capital was Mahasthangarh, the oldest city of Bangladesh, in neighbouring Bogra, but this hypothesis has not received general acceptance among scholars.

In 1859–61, the district was one of the major areas involved in the Indigo revolt. Beginning in Yusufshahi period in 1873, the serfs resisted excessive demands of increased rents by feudal lords (zamindar), They were led by the nouveau riches Banerjees and Dwijendranath Tagore, by forming an Agrarian League. This largely peaceful movement found the support of the Lieutenant-governor of Bengal, George Campbell, who antagonised the absentee feudal lords. These protests are generally referred to as Pabna disturbances. In the following year, the district was one of the worst hit by famine. The peasants' demands were finally partially met with the Rent Law Act of 1885.

In 1875, Raaygonj was transferred back to Pabna from Bogra, and in 1879, a separate judgeship for the districts of Pabna and Bogra was created.

Geography
Pabna forms the south-east boundary of Rajshahi Division. Sirajganj District is on the north-east, while the Padma River, the main stream of the holy river Ganges, in the south separates it from Rajbari District and Kushtia District. The Jamuna River runs along its eastern border separating it from Manikgonj District; and on the north-west, it has a common boundary with the Natore District. Its average maximum temperature is 36.8 °C, and the minimum is 9.6 °C; annual rainfall is 1872 mm. Characteristically, the soil of the district is divided into four, due to the flood plains of the Ganges, Karatoya, Jamuna, and Barind Tracts. Its main rivers are the Ganges, Ichamati, Gumani, Baral, and Hurasagar Rivers. The rivers Padma and Jamuna meet at the south-eastern end of Pabna Aminpur Thana.

Rivers
The district is intersected by rivers of varying magnitude. The river system, though, is constituted by the Padma and the Jamuna with their interlacing offshoots and tributaries. Besides these flowing streams, the interior has the abandoned beds of old rivers, most of which are dry except in the rains. The general trend of the drainage of the Serajganj subdivision is from north-west to south-east, with the rivers entering it from the north-west flow into the Jamuna after a tortuous course. In the Sadar subdivision, however, the general slope of the country is from west to east, and the main rivers fall into Hurasagar, an offshoot of the Jamuna.

The following rivers flow through Pabna District:
 * 1) Padma River
 * 2) Ichhamati River
 * 3) Baral River
 * 4) Atrai River
 * 5) Chiknai River
 * 6) Jamuna River
 * 7) Kazipur River
 * 8) Karatoya River
 * 9) Hurasgar River
 * 10) Gumany River
 * 11) Rotnai River
 * 12) Badai River
 * 13) Kageshari River
 * 14) Sutikhali River
 * 15) Komla River
 * 16) Chondraboti River
 * 17) Barnai River

Demographics
According to the 2022 Census of Bangladesh, Pabna District had 743,557 households and a population of 2,909,622, 22.0% of whom lived in urban areas. The population density was 1,225 people per km2. The literacy rate (age 7 and over) was 70.4%, compared to the national average of 74.7%.

Muslims are the overwhelming majority. The Hindu population has continuously decreased from 1981, when it was a high of 100,000.

Economy
Pabna's economy is quite prosperous. Lots of small and big industries and industries have developed here. Besides, there is a BSIC industrial city in Pabna where there are a large number of industrial factories.
 * Main occupations: Agriculture 34%, agricultural farm-hands 22.77%, wage labourer 4.46%, transport 2.18%, weavers 2.85%, commerce 13.27%, service 7.26%, and others 13.21%
 * Land control: Among the peasants, 29% are landless peasants, with 49% small, 18% intermediate, and 4% rich
 * Value of land: The market value of the land of the first grade is Tk 15500 per 0.01 acre
 * Crops: Paddy rice, jute, wheat, sugarcane, oil seeds, onion, garlic, betel leaf (paan), pulses
 * Extinct or nearly extinct crops: Indigo, sesame, linseed, cereals such as kaaun and cheena, and orhor pulses
 * Fruits: Mango, jackfruit, banana, lychee (lichu), coconut, guava, pomelo, and papaya
 * Fisheries, dairies, and poultries: 1069 dairies, 88 fisheries, 714 poultry, and 37 hatcheries
 * Industries: Ishwardi EPZ; Pakshey paper mill, sugar mill, cotton mill, jute press, edible oil mill, Square Pharmaceuticals, biscuit factory. The most prominent rice industry is Purbasha Automatic Rice Mills Ltd. in Ishwardi and flour mill (Rouf and Sons Flour Mill), ice factory, welding, saw mill, and cold storage. The SQUARE group established several factories in the district, namely pharmaceuticals, spices, food, toiletries, and textiles, and converted the agricultural economy of Pabna to an industrial society
 * Cottage industries: Hand loom, bamboo and caneworks, blacksmith, goldsmith, potteries, woodworks, and tailoring
 * Main exports: Rice, jute, betel leaf, hosiery goods, cotton, cotton fabrics
 * Active NGOs: BRAC, CARE, ASA, Grameen Bank, Caritas, Proshika, Shomota, Thengamaara Mohila Shobuj Shongho (TMSS), Polli Progoti, ASEAB, BOSS

Irrigation
Water from the river Jamuna is pumped from Bera pump house to the east through the Baral river.

Points of interest
Pakshey is a popular green area and a small town. The railway colony of Paksey, divisional headquarters of Bangladesh Railway, has many old trees and is beside the river Padma and the Hardinge Bridge. An export processing zone (EPZ) and the newly built Lalon Shah Bridge are situated here.

Idyllic Poddar Par (the bank of the Padma) at Shilaaidoho Ghaat is 5 km south of town's old Technical Institute, where people can enjoy a river cruise. A river crossing (ghaat) here connects to Shilaaidoho of Kumarkhali Upazila of Kushtia District. Nobel laureate poet Rabindranath Tagore had a Koothibari (villa) at Shilaaidoho, where his birth anniversary is celebrated regularly.

Bangladesh Mental Hospital, Pabna is a hospital beside Pabna's main town, and the only mental hospital in Bangladesh. Mental patients from anywhere in Bangladesh go there to get treatment.

There is a marshy area, Chalan Beel, in the north.

Dhalarchar (Aminpur) was famous for crime, but it is now popular and valuable for its geographical position after established Aminpur Thana.

Administration
The district comprises nine upazilas:
 * 1) Atgharia Upazila
 * 2) Bera Upazila
 * 3) Bhangura Upazila
 * 4) Chatmohar Upazila
 * 5) Faridpur Upazila (formerly Banwari Nagar)
 * 6) Ishwardi Upazila
 * 7) Pabna Sadar Upazila
 * 8) Santhia Upazila
 * 9) Sujanagar Upazila
 * Zila Parishad chairman: Rezaur Rahim Laal
 * Deputy Commissioner (DC): MD Jasim Uddin
 * City Mayor : Sharif Uddin Prodhan

Health
A general hospital and a mental hospital are in Pabna. The 11 thanas of the district hold a Upazila health complex each. Each Upazila health complex has qualified doctors who got appointment through Bangladesh Civil Service (BCS) commission. For better treatment, people need to go to medical college and other tertiary hospitals in Rajshahi or Dhaka. The 250-bed government general hospital is here, with a 450-bed mental hospital, second oldest in Indian subcontinent, only after Ranchi Mental Hospital, Jharkhand, India. Recently, government-owned Pabna Medical College and Hospital has been set up. Around 15 health clinics are available in Pabna.

Mental Hospital, Pabna and Pabna Medical College and Hospital are built on land donated by Lord Thakur Anukulchandra at Hemayetpur.

Centre for the Rehabilitation of the Paralysed has started its 10th subcenter at Pabna in the name of “CRP- Pabna Diabetic Shamity” from January 2017 with the collaboration of Pabna Diabetic Shamity to provide rehabilitation services such as physiotherapy, occupational therapy, speech and language therapy, awareness raising program regarding disability and rehabilitation, and scarf-injury prevention, and also provide assistive devices to the persons with disabilities.

Transport
Roads, waterways, railways, and one airport are present. The traditional paalkee (sedans), tomtom (horse carriages), and gorur gaari (bullock carts) are now going out of the fashion. The nosimon and korimon, locally made mechanical haulers using irrigation pumps as their main engines, are mainly used for transporting agricultural goods and rural folks. Inexpensive Chinese electric and petrol autobikes (tricycles) are gaining popularity as urban transport. Dhaka is about five hours by road. Hardinge Bridge and Lalon Shah Bridge over the Padma linked Pabna with Kushtia District and Khulna Division and the southern Bangladesh. Before the Partition of India, it was a major stoppage for trains from Kolkata to Assam and Darjeeling. Pabna is also connected to Dhaka by the age old roadway through the Jamuna River crossing at Nogorbari, opposite to the river crossing of Aricha at Manikgonj District. It is also very well connected with Dhaka by modern roads through Jamuna Bridge. There is a new rail link established in Pabna town.

Pabna Railway Station is situated in near Pabna Central Bus Terminal. Nearby rail stations are situated in Tebunia, Chatmohar Upazila and Ishwardi Upazila. Ishwardi Upazila is one of the important railway junctions of the North Bengal as well as in Bangladesh. There are nine rail stations in this district: Ishwardi, Pakshi, Muladuli, Chatmohar, Bhangura, Baral Bridge, Sharat Nagar, Dilpashar and Guakhara. Pabna is well connected by road, rail, river or air to the rest of the country.

Ishwardi Upazila has an airport. Biman Bangladesh Airlines used to operate twice-weekly services to Ishwardi from Hazrat Shahjalal International Airport, Dhaka, but no airline is operating to and from Ishwardi now.

Several Dhaka-bound private bus services are available: Pabna Express, Shyamoli Parbahan, Sarkar Travels, Raja Badshah, Ishurdi Express, Shahzadpur Travels, Baadol, Night Star, Kings, Esha, Mahanagar, Capital Service, Sakal Shandha, Uttara, B Nagar, Al Hamra, etc. The government-owned Bangladesh Road Transport Corporation (BRTC) provides bus services to Rajshahi and Bogra cities. Water transport is important, as the Padma and other rivers and Chalan Beel are situated in Pabna. In the Pabna district, ride by nosimon, rickshawvan, and korimon are pleasant.

Education
Overall, literacy for males is 71.8% and for females 65.7%. A renowned science and technology university, Pabna University of Science and Technology, is located there, as are 34 colleges, a cadet college, a law college, a government polytechnic institute, a government vocational training institute, a textiles college, a government commerce college, a teachers' training college, a primary teacher's training institute, a nursing training institute, a homoeopathic college, 202 high schools, 29 junior high schools, a Madrassa Aliya, 261 qaomi madrassa (seminary), 667 government primary schools, 445 nongovernment primary schools, eight community schools, 29 kindergartens, 32 satellite schools, 299 NGO-operated schools, and a music college. Pabna Zilla School, Pabna Edward College, and Banwarinagar C.B. Pilot High School of this district are very old in the region–over a hundred years.

Noted educational institutions are:

School
 * Pabna Cadet College (1981)
 * Bansherbada ML High School, Ishwardi, Pabna (1917)
 * Pabna Zilla School (1853)
 * Pabna Govt. Girls High School (1883)
 * Govt. Edward College, Pabna (founded 1898)
 * Pabna University of Science and Technology (2008)
 * Pabna Medical College (2008)
 * Pabna Textile Engineering College (2008)
 * Pabna Polytechnic Institute (1962)
 * Govt Technical School and College, Pabna (1889)
 * Selim Nazir High School (1924)
 * Pabna Collectorate Public School and College (2008)
 * North Bengal Paper Mills High School, Paksey (1972)
 * R.M Academy School & College, Pabna
 * Jagir Hossain Academy, Pabna (1983)
 * Al-hera Academy School and College (1987)
 * Gopal Chandra Institution (GCI) (1894)
 * Galaxy School & College Bera-Pabna (2001)
 * Atghoreia Government College (1972)
 * Atghoria Government High School (1954)
 * Government Shahid Bulbul College
 * Pabna City College
 * Banwarinagar Cornation Bonomali Pilot High School (1912), Faridpur
 * Basanta Raha Institute of engineering and health science (1899)
 * Shahid Fazlul Haque Municipal High School (1967)
 * Banglamotion Institute of Engineering & Technology (2012)
 * Pabna Town Girls High School (1903)
 * Madrassa Aliya (1925)
 * MC Jubilee High School (1936)
 * Pabna Cadet Collegiate School (1993)
 * Online.net (IT School) (2000)
 * Amina Monsoor Girls High School (2002)
 * Ataikula High School (1938)
 * Bhangura Union High School
 * Bhangura Jarina Rahim Girls High School
 * Haji Jamal Uddin Degree College
 * Bhangura Alia Madrassa
 * Hadol Madrassa, Debottor, Atgharia, Pabna
 * Government Primary School (1880)
 * Varenga (Bera) Academy (1835)
 * Bera B B High School (1899)
 * Adarsha High School, Kaitola (1972)
 * Bera High School (1906)
 * Monjur Kadir Mohila College, Bera, Pabna (1990)
 * Dhobakhola Coronation High School (1906)
 * Banwarinagar Pilot Girls High School (1972), Faridpur
 * Shara (Ishwardi) Marwari School (1917)
 * Khalilpur (Shujanogor) High School (1901)
 * Bhadurpur Government Primary School (1909)
 * JotGoury Jalalpur Government Primary School (1943)
 * Dulai High School (1967)
 * Pabna Collectorate Public School and College (2009)
 * Khan Pura High School (1918)
 * Malifa Habibor Rahman Multilateral High School (1957)
 * Masundia Bhabanipur K.J.B College
 * Masundia Bhabanipur High School
 * Pabna College, Pabna (1983)
 * Nariagodai High School, Nariagodai, Santhia, Pabna (1963)
 * Kashinathpur Abdul Latif High School, Pabna
 * Sujanager Pilot Model High School And College (1956)
 * Karanja Pre Cadet School & College (2005)
 * Pakuria School and College (1907)
 * Imam Hossain Academy, Santhia, Pabna (2001)
 * Santhia Pilot High School, Santhia (1943)
 * Chatmohar RCN & BSN High School & College (1861)
 * Saint Rts. High School, Mothurapur, Chatmohar, Pabna (1970)
 * Chiknai High School, Mulgram, Chatmahor
 * Chatmohar Pilot Girls High School (1970)
 * Chatmohar Government Degree (hons) College (1970)
 * Tebunia Wasim Pathshala, Tebunia, Pabna
 * Samsul Huda Degree College, Tebunia, Pabna
 * Shaheed Abdul Khaleque High School, Khidirpur, Atgharia, Pabna
 * Par Khidirpur High School, Atgharia, Pabna
 * Ramchandrapur High School, Atgharia, Pabna
 * Khidirpur College, Atgharia, Pabna
 * Par Khidirpur College, Atgharia, Pabna

Newspapers
Locally published newspapers and periodicals include:
 * Newspabna.com
 * Doinik Ichhamoti
 * Doinik Shatakantha
 * Doinik Pabna Protidin
 * Doinik Uttor Jonota (Ishwardi)
 * Gan Bikashini
 * Pabna Barta
 * Bibriti
 * Banshpatra
 * Pabnar alo
 * Arshi
 * Jamuna
 * Charmohar Barta
 * Faridpur Barta
 * Junction
 * Jonodabi (Ishwardi)
 * Gan Prova
 * Polli Dorpon
 * Manoshi
 * Amar Desh and Pabna
 * Tawhid (Bhangura)
 * Chetona
 * Shocheton
 * Dainik abc Barta(Aminpur)

National dailies like Prothom Alo, The Daily Star, Jugantor, Ittefaq, Kaaler Kontho, Janakantha, Amader Shomoy, The New Age are also available.

Members of ninth Jatiyo Sangshad (2009–)

 * Pabna-1 (Santhia Upazila and part of Bera Upazila) Seat 68: Mohammad Shamsul Haque (Tuku) [from Awami League].
 * Pabna-2 (Sujanagar Upazila and part of Bera Upazila) Seat 69: Ahmed Firoz Kabir [from Awami League]
 * Pabna-3 (Chatmohar Upazila, Bhangura Upazila and Faridpur Upazila) Seat 70: Mohammad Mokbul Hossain [from Awami League]
 * Pabna-4 (Ishwardi Upazila and Atgharia Upazila) Seat 71: Nuruzzaman Biswas [from Awami League]
 * Pabna-5 (Pabna Sadar Upazila) Seat 72: Khondokar Golam Faruk (Prince) [from Awami League]

Notable residents

 * Thakur Anukulchandra, guru, physician and founder of Satsang Ashram
 * Group Captain (Rtd.) Saiful Azam, former pilot of Bangladesh Air Force, Pakistan Air Force, Jordanian Air Force and Iraqi Air Force. He was a war hero of 1965 Indo-Pakistani War and 1967 Arab-Israeli War (Six-Day War).
 * Selina Banu, politician
 * General Joyanto Nath Chaudhuri OBE, former Chief of Army Staff of the Indian Army
 * Pramatha Chaudhuri, writer
 * Samson H. Chowdhury, former chairman of Square Group
 * Priyamvada Devi, writer
 * Amzad Hossain, MNA (Member of National Assembly of Pakistan), organizer of Liberation War
 * A. B. Mirza Azizul Islam, advisor of Bangladesh Caretaker Government 2007-2008
 * Air Vice Marshal (Rtd.) A. K. Khandker, first Chief of Staff of Bangladesh Air Force (1971–1975), and former Planning Minister
 * Mohammed Shahabuddin Chuppu, jurist, politician and civil servant, serving as the 22nd President of Bangladesh since 2023
 * Mozid Mahmud, poet and essayist, recognized as a major poet of the 1980s, with more than thirty books to his credit
 * Amiya Bhushan Majumdar, Indian novelist
 * Bonde Ali Miah, poet
 * Motiur Rahman Nizami, Ameer (chairman) of Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, former Member of Jatiyo Sangshad (2001–2006), former Minister of Agriculture (2001–2003), and executed under trial for war crimes during the Liberation War of Bangladesh in 1971
 * Shreemati Rasasundari, 19th century writer
 * Dilip Bagchi, Bengali mass singer and political activist
 * Kamal Ahmed, Singer, Administrator
 * Suchitra Sen, actress

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Pabna District


text:
Talk:Vespa

Untitled

 * ADDITION OF EXTERNAL LINKS TO THE MAIN ARTICLE: If you want to add an External link to the mian article, then place a link to it here on the discussion page under a separately created section so that we can discuss it. This page is prone to attracting External Links, and the rules of wikipedia state that only those links that ADD VALUE to the article should be included - see WP:EXT. However, we recognise that some people who can add a lot of value to the article also want to add their favourite link, which can on occasions have high commercial content. So, create a discussion here first, and lets go from there!

Peacock Terms
The end of the first paragraph referred to the Vespa as having a "endearing and enduring shape." I removed that phrase but there are many others like it throughout the article. Though I personally am fond of Vespa scooters, I didn't feel this was appropriate language in the context of Wikipedia article standards. Not to offend anyone, but at times this article reads more like an advertisement than an encyclopedia entry.

Vespa Name
The name Vespa, also referes to the sound of the wasp, and the old 2-stroke engines. Comment: This may be true for many users, but there are no sources indicating the engine sound as a reason for the original choice of name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.241.198.254 (talk) 20:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC) I don't know how accurate it is, as for what I know the popular version here in Italy about the Vespa naming is both that it resembles a wasp in shape (with a bit of imagination) and in the buzzing sound of the engine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Giorgio.tani (talk • contribs) 17:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Pick-Up
didn't vespa make a 3 wheel pickup?
 * True, Vespa also has been producing three wheel pickups . These vehicles are called Piaggio Ape and are still in production. In fact, until today they are an important asset to small businesses. Capable of passing through the narrowest streets, they are the perfect means for transporting all kinds things in the typical Italian villages and cities.

Engine Cooling
The article says, "...but a blower was soon attached to the transmission to push air over the cylinder's cooling fins (the modern Vespa engine is still cooled this way)..."

Actually, cooling is accomplished via a finned flywheel which is attached to one side of the crankshaft. (This comment is not mine, but instead moved from the main text of the article.)--Seanh 02:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Your finned flywheel is almost certainly the blower mentioned in the article...For current models I found Ram air with secondary air system. I also found a liquid cooled model.--Scribner 08:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Vespa Owners
The article is getting a bit long, so before it gets a "too long" tag, I was thinking of stubbing a few sections. Firstly, the Riders section - a good list which is a bit too long. Secondly, most motorcycle articles move the models section list to a stub. Thoughts? Rgds, - Trident13 11:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we're getting too good at this article stuff?
I was doing the monthly culling of the external links, and noticed that this website has referenced us here at Wiki as having the best list of real/fictional riders! I therefore assume that the anon editor 71.255.194.222 who added them as the "official" Vespa blog, and their sole edit on Wiki - was pulling our leg on that occasion. Keep up the good work all - no wonder why we are being hit by loads of anon's to get on the external links list. Rgds, - Trident13 04:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Spaceballs
Please, why no link to " spaceball spaceballs"? Thank You. [[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 16:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Done - excellent suggestion! Its the external links not the articles additions we want to manage. Rgds, - Trident13 18:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Much like many of the other pages on this website, even knowing that it's there, it's yet difficult to locate.

Maybe someone would invent software that would simplify it all.

"*Spaceballs - the character Princess Vespa of Druidia is blatantly based on the Vespa in the Mel Brooks movie"

Thank You,

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 23:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

http://italy.culturaltravel.net
Sorry if I mess this up but I'm fairly new to the art of Wikipedia. I have a non-commercial site that I think would be of great interest all all Vespa owners. So I'm hoping I've followed the procedures correctly and that everyone gets a chance to view and approve it. Please let me know if you have any questions. Best regards, Warren Quietleader 21:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure of the value to the article BUT I like the content and its certainly non-commercial. Gets my vote for retention. Rgds, - Trident13 20:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

sip-scootershop.com
Hello, i listed the link to one of the largest vespa communities Community and even though there is a commercial site behind the community is very well visited and a great source for everyone into Vespa. Beside the community there are user blogs and galleries and I see no reason why the link was deleted. I added the link again and would be happy if you keep it. Thanks. Sipsepp 07_01_07

 * And I removed it again - sorry! Having speedy delete tagged your article on Sip-Scootershop today (and see it later removed), I am still not convinced of the value of this link above those we already have, and the large amount of commercial content. Rgds, - Trident13 20:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Junk?
What about junk Vespas? It seems worth mentioning that some less-than-roadworthy vespas are making an appearance on city streets due to the renewed popularity in vintage bikes. I'm guessing that some nonzero number of folks interested in a vintage scooter would come across the Wikipedia page at some point, and it has (unfortunately) become a significant issue in vintage scootering. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.246.144.133 (talk) 05:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

This article is about Vespa's as a whole and not set up as a buyers guide. It will lead to opinion and not 100% fact. --Rally180 06:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

star/stella translation
As an employee of genuine scooter company/ Scooterworks, i can authoritatively say that the Stella/Star cross translation is a bacronym invented by outside sources after the fact, and is unverifyable. Rob Hodge 24.12.75.116 03:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The original statement was misleading. The change from correlation to translation made is a fact worthy of note that you may have missed. Star in italian is stella is quite verifiable. Employee of Genuine is nice for you to tell us, why not get an account, revert your assumptive error and edit stuff that is not only directly involving your employer, but other things you may have a more nuetral bias in. I'll leave your removal of the simple fact, if only to keep far far away from 3RR. --Unixham 01:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I have knowledge of the stella beyond the average joe, including knowlege of just about everything that's ever been published on them. I could go to town on this section since it's vastly simplifying LML's lineup into the one model that sounds most similar to stella. LML manufactured at least 7 different models based on the PX, just within the last five years. i've got printed parts manuals for each of them on my bookshelf next to my desk. In reality, there are vast differences between the star and the stella and the star is probably one of the two LML models that stella shares the least in common with. the Star was the bargain basement model. no disc brakes, no battery, no oil injection, three port instead of five port, no reed valve, different cowls, floor mats instead of rails, six spring clutch instead of 7-spring clutch, and a host of other differences. The stella is as much a star as a P125 is a T5. i could go over how the stella name was come up with but that'd be original research since it's never been published, and therefore inadmissible in wikapedia. while linguistically stella does mean star in italian, to put it in this article in the context it was used in is misleading because it implies that star and the stella are identical, and they are not. 68.166.82.115 22:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Could we not create a replicas section within the article? OK, so one model has six springs versus seven on its clutch - still looks 90/95% like a vespa on the skin above, plus this ignores the fact that these replicas are/were licensed from the Vespa factory. We are an encyclopedia, not an authoritive guide to Vespa maintenance. Rgds, - Trident13 09:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Vespas in pop culture - is there a point?
Don't you think this section is rather trivial? Is it necessary in an encyclopedia? —  hippi ippi  ++++ 09:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Could be argued either way - but like other style icons, the link between the two is now both blured and mutual. The mass popularity of the Vespa was launched on the back of a film, and filmstars of the 50's/60's used them around the sets and so the brand gained additional publicity. If your point was posed as "is it too big" I would probably agree with that (we could remove everything without a reference), but the list is attracting a large number of people to the article and introducing them to Wikipedia, and it keeps our trivia in one section. Having seen how the car project group have tried and failed to maintain their no trivia/no owners policy (or even define it properly), its something we could do but have to be practical with. We have "won" the trivia external links battle through a clear policy and diligence - I still gain a few scars occasionally managing it with others! If a clear agreement and policy could be defined by those who have added/police this article, I would be happy to support. Rgds, - Trident13 09:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The section violates WP:TRIVIA, WP:EMBED, and WP:IINFO. The fact that any given person owns a Vespa is trivial and not notable. What can be done is have a section showing that certain instances of Vespas in pop culture helped improve sales, but would need to be well referenced. As it is, the only such comment is on Roman Holiday, but is WP:OR as it stands now.--SeizureDog 17:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No reply, so I have removed the section again.--SeizureDog 08:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Look a little more carefully, there is a reply (or at least a concern about the removal) on this talk page, see Talk:Vespa#The list of films/riders" --Nick Penguin 21:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Pictures
I removed 2 pictures today. One is the Russian scooter. It is not a Vespa nor is it a decent copy. The reference link calls it "a perfect Russian copy of the most famous scooter of the world!". It is as much of a copy as the Bajaj Chetak looks like a Vespa. I also removed the picture of the 2 vespa's. What are they? New when? I would like to delete the picture of the 150 as it is not a very good picture at all.--Rally180 05:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Good clean up. I might have tried to keep the Russian photo in some way, but you have a fair point. The picture of the 150 is poor, so happy to support removal. Rgds, - Trident13 09:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Primavera picture. Not a very good picture of a small frame. It would be nice if there were a proper primi picture to show the differences between a large & small frame. --Rally180 19:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Didn't Mods use Lambrettas as often as Vespas?
"Vespa was much more widely used in the 1950s and 60s, when it also became the adopted vehicle of choice for the UK youth-culture known as Mods."

Did Mods really prefer Vespas, or just scooters in general? If I understand correctly, Mods would ride either Vespas or Lambrettas, or maybe even Heinkel Tourists if they had enough money or BSA Sunbeams if they weren't yet clued in to BSA Sunbeams' quality problems. Respectfully, SamBlob 16:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The principal scooters ridden by mods were Vespas & Lambrettas not Heinkels & BSA's. Understand the huge rivalry between with the rockers that rode Nortons. Triumphs & BSA's. "I ride a GS scooter with my hair cut neat" The Who. --Rally180 21:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The Lambretta was THE mod scooter, followed by the Vespa. I'd ignore The Who reference as irrelevant. Any brief analysis of period photographs will show that the Lammie was much more popular than the Vespa, sales figures will confirm this. It wasn't a case of a particular brand of scooter being more fashionable though, more a case of availability - most other scooters either came on the market after the mod scooter boom years, or were old when the scene was born. Either they wouldn't be available or they were seen as 'old mans bikes'. There were a few exceptions - off the top of my head I'd say that the Durkopp Dianna, Capri and Moto Rumi Bol d'Or were popular to a lesser extent. This is the problem with trying to write this 40 or 50 years after the event - pop culture (read Quadrophenia!) colours memories and perceptions. Richard Barnes' book 'Mods' is maybe still the best source of pictoral information from this period Scooternik (talk) 00:22, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Vespa Share program
Re posted from the talk page of Trident13
 * I am new to this whole thing and I was reading all the warnings about external links. My wife (who suffers from Lupus) and I run a Vespa rental business in Miami and we also have a Vespa-Share program and our members are called "Greenie's." I think we are the only Vespa-Share program in the country identical to the Car-share programs that exist in NY, Chicago, and Boston. I wanted you to take a look and let me know what section (if not a section of it's own) this info should go in based on this articles large scope of info. Again I am new to this and yes this would be a way for us to drive people to our web site and yes we would benefit from it if people became members but I think our service is the only service in North America and we all have to do our share to reduce our carbo-emmissions. Let me know what you think of the link and if or when I can add it to the article? Q Fortune

 * Hi! Thanks for your message re the Vespa article. I have had a look at your website, which perhaps at present looks a little bit under developed. I looked around it, but can't find out the scale of your present operation - how many bikes do you have? I would say at present most of the main contributors would see your addition of a link as "spam" or failing WP:EXT - perhaps if it included some information about and why vespas? To start a debate on whether to/to not add a link, I have posted your piece on my talk page to the articles talk page. However, if you want a quicker and more likely positive outcome, and you like Vespa's and think you could add information to the present Wikipedia article before you add your link, then most of our best contributors are also commercial operations owners, some of whom have links at the bottom as a concession. Add some information on Vespa's, build up a consistent edit record, and go from there. If you have any questions, come back to me. Best Regards, --Trident13 13:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell it is a commercial endevour. I think it has more to do with ride-share than a vespa article. If there was something noteable other than the use of Vespa's then I say include it. Just my opinion. --Rally180 21:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The list of films/riders
Thankfully, Rally180 reverted an edit by a well known editor, and reinserted what was seen as a "trivia" section. I kind of understand where this editor is coming from, but have always personally had the perspective that if you don't appreciate how important films and star-riders were to the development of the Vespa as a global icon, you probably don't understand Vespa or its communal/comeraderie culture. I think the section is getting a bit long, but I don't want to lose the information contained within. Anyone have any thoughts? Rgds, - Trident13 14:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, I think a good start would be attempting to merge the list of Fictional Characters that have ridden Vespas and the list of Films featuring vespas, since these lists are (or should/could) be virtually the same. And perhaps trimming some of the famous vespa riders section down only to entries that have a citation, that might help raise the quality of these sections and still retain the information. EDIT Perhaps it would also be useful to tell readers what these "famous people" are supposed to be famous for, since I don't instantly recognize all of them for their fame. --Nick Penguin 22:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I have attempted to cleanup this section, but only by representing the information contained therein; I would ask that other users help find citations for these facts. Any "Famous Vespa riders" that had no citation I have removed, and I leave the following list here for others to find citations for --Nick Penguin 22:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Dicky Barrett - lead singer Mighty Mighty Bosstones - 1963 GS160 (MKII), originally White, then Red, then 60's plaid, now Brandywine Metalflake - the engine sound was used in the opening of their song "Where'd You Go?"
 * Billy Crudup - owns a black GT200
 * John Cusimano - of the band The Cringe. His wife Rachael Ray once claimed to ride up front, but now admits she is just a pillion
 * Jack Dee - British comedian
 * Stefano Gabbana - owns a leopard-print Vespa.
 * Adam Horovitz - owns a white LX150 Diamond
 * Anthony Kiedis (of the Red Hot Chili Peppers)
 * Jodie Kidd
 * Abbe Lane
 * Justin Long - rides a custom grey ET4 with the logo for Average Joe's gym from the movie Dodgeball: A True Underdog Story on the cowl
 * Tim Lovejoy - presenter of motoring show Fifth Gear. Tested his black GT200 against the Vespa GT3
 * Nanni Moretti
 * Bill Murray
 * Paul Newman
 * Jonathan Ross
 * Mickey Rourke - owns a vintage green GT200 in Miami and a plum LX150 in NYC
 * Jason Segel - was not injured when his Vespa was rear-ended
 * Kazuya Tsurumaki - his Vespa is shown during the live action segments during the closing credits of FLCL
 * Paul Weller - bought his first Vespa in 1976 and has owned many since.
 * Natalie Wood

I'd lose this whole list. Its a bit 'patting oneself on the back' and TBH most of these celebrities are not really celebrities at all. Ditto the films list.... its too anoraky. Scooternik (talk) 00:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I'd be open to moving it to its own article.--Father Goose (talk) 01:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Reference issues
There are lots of wonderful references at the end of this article. HOWEVER, only 10 of them are linked within the main text. This seems to be an error--because as it stands now, most of the article appears completely unreferenced. I don't know how to fix, unfortunately.Williamroy3 (talk) 20:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Woops! Sorry--In fact it turns out that much of the article is indeed unreferenced, and that the bulk of the references are for the "Famous Vespa Riders" section. This seems very not good. This article is full of material that cries out for references. Williamroy3 (talk) 20:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Haruko2.png
Image:Haruko2.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Picture no picture picture no picture
Is there any reason not to have this image in the article? I find it reasonable to have at least one picture of a current model in the article. However, for greater visual variety, perhaps the 1998 and 2008 pictures could be moved further apart?--Father Goose (talk) 00:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Following my own suggestion, I've moved the 2008 picture to the "Current models" section, and moved the whole "models" section above the "popular culture section", as it is higher-priority information.--Father Goose (talk) 00:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just FWIW, a picture of just the Vespa without the distraction of the guy riding it would be better - the cropping isn't ideal either (looks like there's a bus or something behind him, so it's been cropped "short"?). FlagSteward (talk) 15:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Incorporate or splinter the pop culture lists
I'm just passing through, but as a general comment - the article looks great, with a bit more referencing you'd probably get a WP:GA - until you get to the "famous people with Vespas" list. Which reads as a "sort of famous people whose buttocks have touched a Vespa" list. Lisa Rogers may have many achievements, but contributing to the mystique of the Vespa is not one of them. The trouble is that any list like that is pretty much fundamentally flawed because everyone starts adding their pet favourite. Much better to avoid a straight list and incorporate into the history sections a handful of people who have genuinely contributed to the development of the brand. Ditto with the films - I'd be tempted to shift most of them into a new article "Scooters in popular culture" or some such. While those articles often get non-encyclopaedic, Champagne in popular culture is an example of one that gets it "right" IMO. Incorporate or splinter out that stuff, add a few more references, and you should be on for GA. FlagSteward (talk) 15:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevancies and possible missing features
Firstly lets look at the innacuracies on this page:

The Vespa owes very little to the Cushman (or its predecessor, the Welbike) other than its step through frame, which in turn can be traced back to step through motorised scooters from the mid 1920s, I'll find some source material to give examples. The Lambretta owes more to the Wellbike than the Vespa with its tubular spar frame. While the Vespa wasn't the first vehicle to use a monocoque frame, it was certainly almost unique in the scooter world and possibly owes nothing to any other two wheeled vehicle. It most certainly isn't a spar framed machine and never has been. It is a pressed steel monocoque frame with two stengthening struts across the floor area.

The glove box area is not a 'twin skin' arrangement. Until (possibly) the newer automatic Vespas, it has always been a single sheet of steel. The tool or glove box wasn't a feature until the mid sixties, 20 years after the first Vespas.

The story of the naming of the scooter is also somewhat dubious - D'Asconio has denied this story (As far as I know there is no confirned reference to it from Enrico Piaggio either) and also it is claimed that the name has come from the top down view of the Vespa which does lend itself to the wasp shape. Again, I'm happy to find the source for that (Scootering magazine IIRC)

Ommissions:

While the Vespa is best known in the public eye as a place to hang copious amounts of chrome plated accesories, the custom scooter scene is heavily dependant on these machines, so why no mention of this and the whole scooterist/scooterboy scene worldwide that has spring up over the last 30 years?

Also, small frame Vespas are reknown for their handling abilities, so reference to their performance on the track may be needed? Norrie Kerrs LC SS90s for example, or Terry Franklands black beasts of the 80s, and then perhaps onto the german streetfighters of today, nicely dovetailing into the racing article?

Yours in scootering etc Scooternik (talk) 00:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

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Vespa scooters will be back in India by 2012
At a meeting on June 3, 2010 in Milan (Italy) chaired by Roberto Colaninno, the Board of Directors of Piaggio & C. S.p.A. approved the strategic guidelines and industrial plan of a new Piaggio Group initiative in India for the production and sale of two-wheel vehicles, beginning with a Vespa LX 125 model specially developed for the Indian market, according to a communication from Piaggio Italy.The plan approved by the Piaggio Board of Directors provides for the construction of a new facility in India to produce up to 150,000 units/year and the launch of a Vespa LX 125 model by the end of 2012. The Plan will entail investments totalling 30 million euro (Rs 168.7 crore approximately) in financial years 2010 and 2011, with the goal of achieving revenues of approximately 70 million euro (Rs 393.61 crore approximately) in 2015 – when investment payback is projected – on sales of approximately 110,000 scooters. The investment is covered by the programmes drawn up under the Three-Year Plan approved by the Group Board of Directors on 2 July 2009. The new Piaggio industrial initiative in India will have the support of the Group’s local industrial and commercial operations through the Piaggio Vehicles Private Ltd. subsidiary, whose extraordinary growth – from 35,000 vehicles produced and sold in 2003 to more than 182,000 in 2009 – has established Piaggio as the leader in three-wheel light commercial vehicles on the Indian market. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.177.132.253 (talk) 07:30, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

 * The above is copied from a 7 June 2010 Piaggio press release.--Dbratland (talk) 15:08, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Looking for a specific discussion: External links
Greetings Vespa Editors,

I was trying to find a discussion about why an external link was deleted. In January 2007, a link was added to this Vespa page that pointed to http://italy.culturaltravel.net and the description for that link was "cultural exploration on a Vespa."

Now, more than 3 years later, it seems that link has been removed and I was tying to figure out why. Can someone tell me where I would find the discussion about keeping/deleting that link?

Many Thanks!

Quietleader (talk) 01:09, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

 * It got removed in this edit by Dbratland in early December. Since you were last here, there is sub-change in policy on external links. Now, if articles attract too many links, we are enforcing the policy of adding a link to DMOZ, the Open Directory Project - which is what Dbratland rightly did, by removing yours and some other long time links. At Dmoz you get a follow link, where as here all you get - at best - is traffic. Dmoz are a focused group on links to good quality websites and blogs, and will accept more than Wikipedia will (ie: even commercial). Yours should pass into DMOZ with ease, but it may take some time and it always helps to add their search box to your blog/website somewhere. Hope that helps - Rgds, - Trident13 (talk) 01:26, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Vespa 946
There is no mention of the Vespa 946. Originally called Vespa Quarantesei ('46' in italian) there are reports that at a meeting in Milan production of these vehicles would begin in the USA.

The 946 has been featured on the Vespa website saying:

At EICMA 2011 the Vespa 946 unveils a possible future with a tribute to the MP6, the original prototype and progenitor of the world’s most famous scooter, an unsurpassed example of Italian style and creativity. By distilling the essence of a scooter that changed the style of individual mobility forever and enhancing the lines that secured its success, the Pontedera Style Centre has projected the Vespa into a possible future where references and projections, tradition and innovation, merge seamlessly. The vibrant heart of the Vespa 946 is a state-of-the-art engine that paves the way for forthcoming advances, with low fuel consumption and minimal exhaust and noise emissions.

LX and S removal at current, introducing Primavera & Sprint
There has to be changed a couple items in the article. The LX, LXV and S aren't produced anymore, so they have to be removed from current. While there are a lot of them, on 1 May 2014 the last LX was rolled out the factory. Those models are replaced by the Primavera and Sprint. Sprint will follow the Vespa S footsteps, and the Primavera will be the next LX. Available in Europe in: Primavera/Sprint 2T 50cc, and 4T 50cc 2v/4v, 4T 125cc 3v, 4T 150cc 3v. And a picture in the article will fit too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.172.3.184 (talk) 17:20, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Vespa. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090106013055/http://www.capital.it:80/trovacinema/pop_gallery.jsp?idContent=279350 to http://www.capital.it/trovacinema/pop_gallery.jsp?idContent=279350

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External links modified
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I have just modified 3 one external links on Vespa. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://majalah.tempointeraktif.com/id/arsip/1977/09/24/EB/mbm.19770924.EB75587.id.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://majalah.tempointeraktif.com/id/arsip/1977/09/24/EB/mbm.19770924.EB75587.id.html
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080525100717/http://www.museopiaggio.it:80/en/index_en.html to http://www.museopiaggio.it/en/index_en.html

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External links modified
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I have just modified 4 one external links on Vespa. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.bulletproofscooters.com/pics/vs5.htm
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://majalah.tempointeraktif.com/id/arsip/1977/09/24/EB/mbm.19770924.EB75587.id.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://majalah.tempointeraktif.com/id/arsip/1977/09/24/EB/mbm.19770924.EB75587.id.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070603160137/http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcvespa/et2.html to http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcvespa/et2.html

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Best known for appearance in Mean Girls 2
I removed the claim that "The Vespa is best known for it's appearance in the movie Mean Girls 2, being rode by main character Jo Mitchell, played by Meaghan Martin", for several reasons:
 * 1. There is no source provided to support this claim. A claim like this must have a source before it can be added to the article.
 * 2. It is highly unlikely that any source will ever be found because there is no conceivable way to determine what Vespa is best known for.
 * 3. Mean Girls 2 is a telemovie which never had a theatrical release. It is doubtful that it has been seen by enough people worldwide - people who not only saw the movie but actually noticed the scooter was a Vespa - to make the claim true. Furthermore, the scooter in the movie Roman Holiday was a Vespa. Certainly more people have seen Roman Holiday - a very famous movie starring Audrey Hepburn and Gregory Peck - than Mean Girls 2. So even if it were true that the Vespa is best known for appearing in a movie - a highly dubious claim which could never be proven - it would more likely be known for Roman Holiday than Mean Girls 2.

This claim must not be put back in the article without a source, or without discussion here on the Talk page. If it is put back in the article without a reliable source, and without a discussion, it will be removed. Thanks very much for your cooperation. FillsHerTease (talk) 07:59, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Also, it's nonsense. Probably a troll. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:14, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Dennis Bratland (talk) - HA HA HA! Yes ... well ... there's that too! ;-) FillsHerTease (talk) 04:02, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101112111349/http://www.scooteringusa.com/2006/03/ to http://www.scooteringusa.com/2006/03

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Production outside Italy
Vespa were also manufactured in Germany (see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespa#Vespa_in_Deutschland). 89.183.230.187 (talk) 07:21, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Division Vespa 946
This is a completely different model like the vespa lx and gts, with peculiar characteristics such as the saddle, the aluminum construction and the horizontal rear shock suspension. He also received the golden compass award 2016. The merger do in 2016 was made without discussion or prior consent. 93.150.218.40 (talk) 09:53, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Vespa


text: Template:Bangladesh-geo-stub

title: Template:Bangladesh-geo-stub


text:
East Hollywood, Los Angeles

East Hollywood is a densely populated neighborhood of 78,000+ residents that is part of the Hollywood area of the central region of Los Angeles, California. It is notable for being the site of Los Angeles City College, Barnsdall Park, and a hospital district. There are seven public and five private schools, a Los Angeles Public Library branch, and three hospitals. Almost two-thirds of the people living there were born outside the United States, and 90% were renters. In 2000, the neighborhood had high percentages of never-married people and single parents.

History

In the early 20th century, the East Hollywood area was a farming village that also encompassed some of what is now Los Feliz. Parts of the neighborhood were formerly known as "Prospect Park."

In 1910 the towns of Hollywood and East Hollywood approved annexation to the City of Los Angeles in order to tap into the city water supply. In 1914, Children's Hospital was relocated from downtown LA to Vermont Avenue and Sunset Boulevard.

In 1916 steel magnate Andrew Carnegie donated the money to construct the Cahuenga Branch of the Los Angeles Public Library on Santa Monica Boulevard.

In the early 1920s, Barnsdall Park was built. The 1920s were also a time of massive immigration into East Hollywood. Armenian immigrants established the community that is now Little Armenia. The University of California Southern Branch, needing more space, moved west at the end of the 1920s to a ranch called Westwood and became UCLA. The old Southern Branch campus then became Los Angeles Junior College, which was later renamed Los Angeles City College.

In 1930 Cedars of Lebanon Hospital was formed when Kaspare Cohn Hospital moved from East Los Angeles to a new building on Fountain Avenue and was renamed.

US 101, the Hollywood Freeway, was built between 1947 and 1949.

In the summer of 1999 three Metro Red Line subway stations opened, connecting East Hollywood more efficiently to the rest of the city.

Demographics
The 2000 U.S. census counted 73,967 residents in the 2.38-square-mile East Hollywood neighborhood—or 31,095 people per square mile, the third-highest population density in the city. In 2008, the city estimated that the population had increased to 78,192 - or 32,853 people per square mile. In 2000 the median age for residents was 31, about average for city and county neighborhoods; the percentage of residents aged 19 to 34 was among the county's highest.

The neighborhood was "moderately diverse" ethnically within Los Angeles, the statistics being Latino people of any race, 60.4%; Asians, 15.5%; Non-Hispanic Whites, 17.5%; blacks, 2.4%; and others, 4.1%. El Salvador (21.2%) and Mexico (20.1%) were the most common places of birth for the 66.5% of the residents who were born abroad—which was a high percentage compared to Los Angeles as a whole.

The median yearly household income in 2008 dollars was $29,927, considered low for the city, and high percentages of households earned $40,000 or less. Renters occupied 91.3% of the housing stock, and house- or apartment-owners held 8.7%. The average household size of three people was average for Los Angeles. The percentages of never-married women (33.3%) and men (42.6%) were among the county's highest. One-fifth of the 3,281 families were headed by single parents, a high rate for Los Angeles.

In 2000 there were 1,509 veterans, or 2.8% of the population, a low rate compared with the rest of the city and county.

Homeless population
In 2022, there were 528 homeless individuals in East Hollywood.

East Hollywood Neighborhood Council
According to The East Hollywood Neighborhood Council, East Hollywood is bounded by Western Avenue on the west, Hollywood Boulevard on the north, Hoover Street on the east, and the Hollywood Freeway on the south. It contains the following districts:

 * District 1: Thai Town
 * District 2: Hollymont Junction
 * District 3: Hollyset Junction
 * District 4: Little Armenia West
 * District 5: College Village
 * District 6: Virgil Village

Mapping L.A.
According to the Mapping L.A. project of the Los Angeles Times, East Hollywood borders Los Feliz to the north and Silver Lake, about 4 miles from Downtown Los Angeles to the east. It also borders Wilshire Center to the south and Hollywood on the west.

According to the Times, East Hollywood includes the smaller neighborhoods of Thai Town, Little Armenia and Melrose Hill. However, Melrose Hill is located south of the Hollywood Freeway and outside the boundaries set by The East Hollywood Neighborhood Council. (Melrose Hill is within the Hollywood Studio District Neighborhood Council.) Additionally, the Times does not mention Virgil Village, but the neighborhood is within the boundaries set by the Times.

Transportation
East Hollywood is served by the Metro B Line subway which runs north–south along Vermont Avenue and east–west along Hollywood Boulevard.

Metro subway stations include:
 * Vermont/Beverly
 * Vermont/Santa Monica
 * Vermont/Sunset
 * Hollywood/Western

Over a dozen bus lines run on the major thoroughfares, including Metro's Rapid and Local service lines. Los Angeles Department of Transportation's DASH shuttle lines, serving East Hollywood, Hollywood, and the Griffith Observatory, also operate in the area.

The 101/Hollywood Freeway cuts northwest from downtown Los Angeles, through Hollywood, to the San Fernando Valley.

Education
Thirteen percent of East Hollywood residents aged 25 and older had earned a four-year degree by 2000, an average figure for the city and the county, but the percentage of residents with less than a high school diploma was high for the county.

Schools within East Hollywood's borders are:

Public

 * Lexington Avenue Primary Center, elementary, 4564 West Lexington Avenue
 * Kingsley Elementary School, 5200 West Virginia Avenue
 * Ramona Elementary School, 1133 North Mariposa Avenue
 * Lockwood Avenue Elementary School, 4345 Lockwood Avenue
 * Dayton Heights Elementary School, 607 North Westmoreland Avenue
 * Alexandria Avenue Elementary School, 4211 Oakwood Avenue
 * Harvard Elementary School, 330 North Harvard Boulevard

Private

 * Alex Pilibos Armenian School, K-12, 1625 North Alexandria Avenue
 * Progressive Student Learning Academy, 1518 North Alexandria Avenue
 * Canyon Oaks School, 1414 North Catalina Street
 * Immaculate Heart of Mary Elementary School, 1055 North Alexandria Avenue
 * Blind Children's Center, Inc., 4120 Marathon Street

Notable places

 * Barnsdall Art Park
 * Hollyhock House
 * Vista Theatre
 * The Braille Institute
 * The Cahuenga Branch of the Los Angeles Public Library; on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places
 * Church of Scientology West Coast headquarters
 * Los Angeles City College
 * Self-Realization Fellowship
 * Kaiser Permanente Los Angeles Medical Center
 * Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center
 * Children's Hospital Los Angeles.
 * Zankou Chicken's first American store

Notable people

 * Charles Bukowski, writer
 * Leonardo DiCaprio, actor and film producer
 * Harry Northup, poet and actor

title: East Hollywood, Los Angeles


text:
Chermside

Chermside may refer to:

People

 * Herbert Chermside (1850–1929), British general and governor of Queensland, Australia
 * Robert Alexander Chermside (1792–1860), British physician

Places

 * Chermside, Queensland, a major suburb of the City of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
 * Chermside bus station, a bus station at Chermside, Queensland, Australia
 * Westfield Chermside, a large shopping centre in Queensland, Australia
 * Chermside West, Queensland, a suburb in the City of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
 * Electoral district of Chermside, an electoral district of the Legislative Assembly in Queensland, Australia
 * Electoral results for the district of Chermside

title: Chermside


text:
Mario Rigoni Stern

Mario Rigoni Stern (1 November 1921 – 16 June 2008) was an Italian author and World War II veteran.

Biography
He was born and grew up on the Asiago plateau in North East Italy. In 1938, after being rejected for service in the Navy, he enrolled in the tough Alpini advanced climbing/alpinism course in the Aosta Valley where Renato Chabod was among his teachers. Only four students graduated in that year. When German troops marched on Paris, his Alpini regiment was ordered to invade France from the Aosta Valley over the Little Saint Bernard Pass, a foray which he later described in the first part of his novel Quota Albania. He would then partake in the invasion of Albania and Greece, events which are detailed later in the book.

His first novel Il sergente nella neve, published in 1953 (and the following year in English as The Sergeant in the Snow), draws on his own experience as a sergeant major in the Alpini corps during the disastrous retreat from Russia in World War II. It is his only work to be translated into English and Spanish. He would later say that having managed to make it back to Italy with all 70 of the men under his command was his finest achievement.

His Sergeant in the Snow was later packaged by the Alfred A. Knopf publishing house into a collection of Italian war novels, along with entries by Renzo Biaison (The Army of Love) and Mario Tobino (The Deserts of Libya).

Other well-known works also include Le stagioni di Giacomo (Giacomo's Seasons), Storia di Tönle (The Story of Tönle), and the collection of short stories Sentieri sotto la neve (Paths Beneath the Snow).

His novels which are strongly autobiographical are strongly rooted in the natural world with acute observations about life and wildlife in the mountains. Rigoni Stern was an enthusiastic mountaineer and hunter with an acute sense of the wonder of the natural world, an aspect best exemplified by his novel Il bosco degli urogalli (The Wood of the Black Grouse).

Awards and honours

 * He was awarded the Premio Campiello and the Premio Bagutta for Storia di Tönle, and the Italian PEN prize for Sentieri sotto la neve.
 * Asteroid 12811 Rigonistern was named in his honour. The official was published by the Minor Planet Center on 1 May 2003 (M.P.C. 48394).
 * The silver medal for the Russian Campaign

Works

 * Il sergente nella neve (1953), translated into English as The Sergeant in the Snow (1954)
 * Il bosco degli urogalli (1962)
 * Quota Albania (1971)
 * Ritorno sul Don (1973)
 * Storia di Tönle (1978), translated into English as The Story of Tonle (1998, 2012)
 * Uomini, boschi e api (1980)
 * L'anno della vittoria (1985)
 * Amore di confine (1986)
 * Arboreto salvatico (1991)
 * Le stagioni di Giacomo (1995)
 * Sentieri sotto la neve (1998)
 * Inverni lontani (1999)
 * Tra due guerre e altre storie (2000)
 * L'ultima partita a carte (2002)
 * Stagioni (2006)

title: Mario Rigoni Stern


text:
Whitfield, Gloucestershire

Whitfield is a hamlet in South Gloucestershire, England.

Location

It is on the A38 near Falfield. Located just beyond the B4061 junction, the rural exit from Thornbury. The hamlet has a nucleus around Brinkmarsh and Iron Hogg Lanes but also strings out along the main A38 between Bristol and Gloucester and into the B4061 towards Thornbury.

Economy and facilities
The hamlet is bounded by farmland. The northern outskirts have an organic beef farm and Eastwood Park garden centre. The local buildings are, in keeping with the regional vernacular, made mainly of stone or rendered detached homes and some farm buildings. The most notable nearby landmarks are the country estates of Eastwood Park and Tortworth Court. Eastwood Park is now a conference centre, with training and social facilities that cater to the healthcare and private sectors. Tortworth Court is now a quality hotel with a number of restaurants, pool and spa facilities.

title: Whitfield, Gloucestershire


text:
Herbert Chermside

Lieutenant-General Sir Herbert Charles Chermside, (31 July 1850 – 24 September 1929) was a British Army officer who served as Governor of Queensland from 1902 to 1904.

Early life and education
Chermside was born in the town of Wilton in Wiltshire on 31 July 1850. His parents were Rev. Richard Seymour Conway Chermside, rector of Wilton and son of Sir Robert Alexander Chermside, and Emily Dawson. He was a scholar at Eton College and then attended the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich, where he graduated at the top of his year and was commissioned in the Royal Engineers in 1870.

Military career
In 1871, Chermside and several other officers visited Paris during the Paris Commune, and were accused of supporting the Communards, narrowly escaping execution. After a posting in Ireland, he joined Benjamin Leigh Smith's expedition to the Arctic in 1873.

In 1876, Chermside was sent to Ottoman Turkey to work with the Turkish forces after Serbia and Montenegro declared war on the country in July. He was working as a military attaché to Turkey in 1877, when Russia also declared war. After six months with the Turkish boundary commission, he was appointed Military Vice Consul to Anatolia in July 1879.

In 1882, Chermside was promoted to captain, and appointed to the British Army's intelligence staff in Egypt. He was given command of the Egyptian Army's 1st Battalion by the army's Sirdar, Evelyn Wood, and spent four years in Egypt where he took part in the Suakin Expedition of 1884, against Muhammad Ahmad's Mahdist forces and served as governor-general of the Red Sea littoral. He was transferred to Wadi Halfa in October 1886, and spent the next two years repelling Mahdist incursions at Sarras.

Although still a captain in the Royal Engineers, Chermside was brevetted major in 1883, lieutenant-colonel in 1884 and colonel in 1887. In 1888 he returned to consular duties, spending a year in Kurdistan and seven years as military attaché to Constantinople. He then was assigned to reorganise the gendarmerie of the newly-autonomous Cretan State, later taking command of the British troops there and serving as military commissioner from 1896.

In 1899 Chermside returned to Britain, but was soon sent to South Africa to command the 14th Brigade and the 3rd Division during the Second Boer War. He was back in the United Kingdom to take up command of the Curragh Camp in Ireland from January 1901. In January the following year he was, however, appointed the first post-Federation Governor of Queensland.

Governor of Queensland
Chermside arrived in Australia in early March 1902, landing in Fremantle. On arrival he stated to local reporters that one of the first matters to which the Australian Commonwealth should attend, was the formation of a military college. He arrived in Brisbane on 24 March 1902 to find Queensland in the grip of a drought and economic recession. He immediately volunteered to forgo 15 per cent of his vice-regal salary, and his sacrifice and approachable nature made him a popular figure amongst the Queensland public. However, concerned by the parliamentary attitude to the role of governor, Chermside decided to resign in 1904, although he delayed the announcement until a political crisis had been dealt with by granting a dissolution of parliament to Premier Sir Arthur Morgan after several failed attempts to establish a stable government. Once he had opened the new parliament, Chermside announced his retirement and left Queensland on 8 October on pre-retirement leave.

Family and later life
Chermside was the second son of the rector of Wilton, Reverend Richard Seymour Conway Chermside, and his wife, Emily Dawson. His paternal grandfather was the military surgeon Sir Robert Chermside.

Chermside was married twice. His first marriage was in 1899 to Geraldine Katherine Webb, daughter of W. F. Webb, of Newstead Abbey, Nottinghamshire. They had a stillborn son on 9 October 1902 in Brisbane, and she childless died in 1910. He remarried in 1920 to Clementine Maria Reuter (daughter of Paul Reuter), and there were no children of the marriage.

Chermside retired from the British Army in 1907 at the rank of lieutenant-general. He died in London, aged 79, on 24 September 1929.

Honours and legacy
Chermside was made a Companion of the Order of the Bath in 1886. He was also made a Companion of the Order of St Michael and St George in 1880, upgraded to Knight Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George in 1897, and Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George in 1899.

The Brisbane suburb of Chermside is named in Chermside's honour.

title: Herbert Chermside


text: Category:175 deaths

title: Category:175 deaths


text:
San Diego and Imperial Valley Railroad

The San Diego and Imperial Valley Railroad (SD&IV) is a class III railroad operating freight rail service in the San Diego area, providing service to customers in the region and moving railcars between the end of the BNSF Railway in downtown San Diego and the Mexico–United States border in San Ysidro. The railroad has exclusive trackage rights to operate over tracks of the San Diego and Arizona Eastern Railway, a subsidiary of the Metropolitan Transit System, the regional public transit service provider. Tracks are shared with the San Diego Trolley, another subsidiary of the Metropolitan Transit System, and freight trains are only operated at night when passenger service is not in operation. The San Diego & Imperial Valley Railroad was established in October 1984 and is owned and operated by Genesee & Wyoming, a holding company that operates more than 100 shortline railroads like the SD&IV.

History
The San Diego & Imperial Valley Railroad was established after March 8, 1984, when RailTex signed an agreement with Metropolitan Transit Development Board (known as the Metropolitan Transit System after 2005) to operate freight service across its San Diego and Arizona Eastern Railway.

The Metropolitan Transit Development Board (MTDB) had purchased the railroad from the financially struggling Southern Pacific Railroad in August 1979 with plans to convert the Main Line between San Diego and San Ysidro for use by light rail passenger trains and to preserve rail freight services between the Port of San Diego and the Imperial Valley. The MTDB initially signed an agreement with Kyle Railways to operate the line, but a storm in January 1980 damaged the Desert Line (between the Mexico–United States border in Tecate and Plaster City) and the portion of the line between Tijuana and Tecate (owned by another company) which wasn't repaired until January 1983. Just six months after the line reopened, a fire on June 18, 1983, destroyed two bridges on the Desert Line. After the fire, Kyle Railways petitioned the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) to abandon the railway, a request that was denied on April 25, 1984.

RailTex's application to operate freight service along the San Diego and Arizona Eastern Railway was approved by the ICC on August 9, 1984, and the San Diego & Imperial Valley Railroad began operation on October 15, 1984. The new general manager of the SD&IV, Dick Engle, persuaded local carriers to ship on this line and invited Mexican customers to start receiving shipments. The effort was met with much skepticism and took place more than 10 years before the signing of the North American Free Trade Agreement, that would increase cross-border shipping. On August 1, 1986, the SD&IV entered into a multi-year agreement with the Mexican Government to provide freight service into Baja California.

The work to repair the Desert Line proved challenging. In July 1989, SD&IV began to repair the burned trestles and collapsed tunnels on the line, but the estimated cost for the work was overwhelming for the railroad and work was halted in the early 1990s. In the early 2000s, investors calling themselves Carrizo Gorge Railway made an offer to make the needed repairs to the Desert Line and pay fees to the SD&IV and the MTDB in exchange for trackage rights. The deal was approved by all parties in April 2003 and repairs on the line began.

In 2000, the Coronado Branch from the 12th Street Junction in National City to Imperial Beach, CA saw its last shipment. Since then, the line has seen no traffic, and the connection to the Main Line has been removed.

The Desert Line reopened to freight service in January 2005. By October 2008 the condition of the track had deteriorated to the point that the Carrizo Gorge Railway closed the Desert Line. The Metropolitan Transit System (former MTDB) terminated the deal with Carrizo Gorge Railway in December 2012 and awarded new, long term operating agreement for the Desert Line to the Pacific Imperial Railroad. Earlier that year, on January 1, 2012, the Baja California Railroad assumed control of the line between Tijuana and Tecate which connected SD&IV's Main Line in San Diego with the Desert Line. The Pacific Imperial Railroad spent years negotiating a deal with the Baja California Railroad to transport freight over its tracks, which it said delayed its repairs to the Desert Line. The Pacific Imperial Railroad declared bankruptcy in October 2016. The Baja California Railroad purchased the rights to use the Desert Line in March 2017 with an agreement to pay the Metropolitan Transit System a million dollars per year to retain its lease. Baja California Railroad has made no repairs to the line.

Current operations
The San Diego & Imperial Valley Railroad holds the exclusive right to operate freight service over three lines owned by the San Diego and Arizona Eastern Railway:

 * The Main Line which runs 15.5 miles from downtown San Diego south to San Ysidro, and is also used by the Blue Line of the San Diego Trolley.
 * The La Mesa Branch which runs 16.1 miles east to the city of El Cajon, and is also used by the Orange Line of the San Diego Trolley.
 * The currently unused Coronado Branch which splits from the Main Line in National City and runs 7.2 miles south to Imperial Beach.

The San Diego & Imperial Valley Railroad does not hold the rights to operate over the San Diego and Arizona Eastern Railway's Desert Line in the Imperial Valley.

Despite operating on the electrified right-of-way of the San Diego Trolley, the San Diego and Imperial Valley Railroad uses two NRE 3GS21B diesel-powered genset locomotives instead of electric locomotives, as the rail yards used to marshal the trains are not electrified. However, genset locomotives are more fuel-efficient and have lower emissions than most traditional diesel locomotives as they are powered by three smaller engines that are turned off and on as needed. The overhead electric wires also prevent the double-stacking of shipping containers on rail cars on the line.

Freight trains only operate between 2 am and 4 am when San Diego Trolley passenger trains are not in operation.

The railroad interchanges with the BNSF Railway in San Diego and the Baja California Railroad in San Ysidro and the railroad's main source of traffic is moving railcars between the two other railroads. The primary commodities hauled are petroleum products, agricultural products, and wood pulp. The SD&IY hauled around 6,500 carloads in 2008.

title: San Diego and Imperial Valley Railroad


text:
User talk:Rob*

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Nohat 07:29, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:Rob*