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Talk:History of science and technology on the Indian subcontinent

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Page name and Mehrgarh
I wasn't aware of the existence of this article. (I have now put it on my watchlist.) I believe, there is a glaring disconnect between the article name and its leading content.
 * Mehrgarh and, in general, regions that are clearly in modern-day Pakistan, shouldn't be included in an article whose name is "History of Indian science and technology." Presumably, the Pakistan workgroup might want to have a history page themselves, or may already have one; the inclusion of these topics here would then potentially create a content fork.  Besides, when I read the Nature article a few years ago and included content from it in the Wikipedia page, Mehrgarh, I didn't, as far as I can  remember, encounter any mention of "India" or even "ancient India" in the article, only one of Pakistan.  It was the same with the BBC report from that time.
 * You are welcome to change the name of the article to "Science and technology in South Asia." (This is the tack taken in Britannica ("South Asian arts," "South Asian mathematics"), but it will still require discussion with the other regional work-groups or WikiProjects.

 * Even in the absence of the issues mentioned above, "History of Indian science and technology" is ambiguous, since "Indian" itself is ambiguous. At the very least, the name of the page should be changed to "History of science and technology in India" or some such formulation.

I will take a more thorough look later. Fowler&fowler «Talk»  13:53, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Post by user:Hakkuna Mattata, refactored to avoid interruptions of above post:

 * 1) Mehrgarh was part of India for the longest of times. Why should it being in Pakistan since 1947 have a problem?
 * 2) Indus valley civilization was in undivided India. So one can just say Mehargarh (located in modern Pakistan)
 * 3) What do you mean by Indian is ambiguous? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hakkuna Mattata (talk • contribs) at 16:01, 26 February 2009

 * Reply by Fowler&fowler:

 * 1) Mehrgarh is in Baluchistan, which was not considered a part of India, until the British annexed some regions of it late in the 19th century. It was not mentioned in any ancient Indian epics from the Vedas onwards.  The discovery of the neolithic site in Mehrgarh was made in 1972 by a team of Pakistani and French archeologists.  No archeologist from India was then or since a part of the excavations.  What does it have to do with a page that links India to Republic of India?
 * 2) The Indus Valley Civilization extended into regions of India (e.g. Lothal), however, Mehrgarh has no corresponding equivalent in regions that are in present-day India, its connections were with other neolithic sites in Iran and Iraq.
 * 3) Please click on Indian.  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  01:20, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Mathematics content
The Indian contribution to mathematics is exaggerated in this article. The mathematical content should not be created anew here, but should be a summary of the material in Indian mathematics. Consequently, the stuff about the Kerala school writing the first calculus textbook etc. will have to go. Aryabhata didn't invent the sine, the cosine or any trigonometric function; the Indians made a minor change in the pre-existing Greek definitions of these functions, which made them more easily computable. Fowler&fowler «Talk»  14:12, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what you mean. Can you please point to the proof of existence of people like pythagoras? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hakkuna Mattata (talk • contribs) 16:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Dear newly created SPA, Whether Pythagoras was a person or a school, he was undeniably Greek (or Hellenic); I am not saying anything about the existence of Aryabhata, only that the "innovations" the mathematicians in early medieval India brought to trigonometry was one of changing the pre-existing Greek definitions of the sine and cosine (involving full chords of the circle) to half-chords.  The names they gave to these alterations have survived through the Arabic translations, but the main conceptual innovation (that the Indians altered) was Greek.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  20:20, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Hargobind Khorana
Hargobind Khorana's image has to go as well. His contribution in explicating the Genetic Code had very little to do with India. It involved experimental techniques that were developed at the University of Wisconsin in Madison and later at MIT. Khorana had become a US citizen much earlier. Unlike a writer (such as Salman Rushdie) who uses India in his works, a scientist is not similarly indebted in terms of the content of his work. Fowler&fowler «Talk»  14:16, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Please see einstein page. It mentions he was german born and it also lists his citizenships. So what is the reason Khorana, an Indian born, should not be mentioned on this page? Khorana spent a decent part of his life studying in India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hakkuna Mattata (talk • contribs) 16:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid Einstein is quite different. He was a German citizen from his birth (in 1879) to 1896 and then again from 1914 to 1933 (a total of 36 years).  That means that he published the General Theory of Relativity (1915) and received the Nobel Prize (1921) as a German citizen.  Khorana, on the other hand, was born in Multan in present-day Pakistan, was educated there and then in Lahore, also in present-day Pakistan, where he received his Masters degree in 1945 at age 23.  That same year (two years before the Partition of India and the creation of independent India and Pakistan), he left British India to study in the UK and never to return to live or work in the subcontinent.  Consequently, if anything, he belongs to the History of Science and Technology in Pakistan page.  He had no education whatsoever within the borders of present-day Republic of India.     Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  20:26, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Reply
I agree with none of the points raised above by user: Fowler&fowler. In my opinion this is a parent article and should only concentrate on overviews while the fine details eg. for silk details such as when did silk arrive from China? what instruments were used by the Indians? how did the advent of Islam help mix traditions? etc. can be left to articles like silk in the Indian subcontinent. These articles require attention and the fine details belong there. Similar for mathematics and such. As for scientists a modification of List of Indian scientists can take place with tables and figures but this 'parent article' needs to be one which presents an overview, eg. science and technology in the Republic of India which presents an outline while leaving the details to nuclear power in India and such.

However, I cannot personally involve myself here till at least March first week due to prior commitments both on and off Wikipedia. I hope that these discussions can take place at a gradual pace. The tag is there and should be there until each and every one of the concerns raised by user: Fowler&fowler above are addressed fully. To clarify, I myself was planning a rewrite as early as January 20 but could not complete.

Also to user:Hakkuna Mattata I would suggest adopting a more leisurely and relaxed approach. Every single bit of information on Wikipedia can be debated and should be. This is but natural and is going to happen to in every article. Working together with all parties and incorporating every single point of view ultimately helps make an article better.

 JSR   0562  05:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Thanks for replying and look forward to your return.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  13:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I have tried to rewrite some portions of the article with an intention to address the concerns raised above. In my opinion, the basic layout of the article is good and the article itself has good sources in it so if it is to be substituted by an overview version from better sources such as these in the future we still have a good enough article till then. I hope that this effort is enough to have the tags removed. If not then kindly prompt me as to what more needs to be done. I am now eying the 'Jai Singh II of Amber' article and waiting to move on with the consent of all involved, especially user:Fowler&fowler. I can also request a move to 'history of science and technology in India' if its not a problem :)  JSR   0562  18:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

 * I have found some time to further modify the article and still have a good lead and expansion of the 'colonial era' section left to do. When I finish these then I will ask for comments here on the talk page. Meanwhile allow me some time to try and make the article more consistent.  JSR   0562  08:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I have re-worded lead to include the location of Mehrgarh (Pakistan), removed the Khurana image, and have re-worded the maths content. In addition I have expanded the article (one para final section), and have tried to address language and citation uniformity issues. I am removing the tag which was placed since February 2009 as efforts have been made since then to address concerns. If any more concerns are raised then I will try and do my bit to address them as they come up on the talk page. Sincerely,  JSR   0562  16:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move
After discussion with User:JSR, I am proposing that we move this article to History of science and technology in India, to avoid using the potentially ambiguous adjective Indian in the article title. This is the norm in other wikiproject India articles. Please voice your support or objection to the move. Abecedare (talk) 19:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I would in fact suggest that we move the page to History of science and technology in South Asia and concurrently invite the Pakistan-, Bangladesh-, Sri Lanka-, Nepal- and any other regional history groups to add or subtract. There are three advantages to doing this: (a) since a large part of the early S&T was developed in present-day Pakistan, especially in regions, such as Baluchistan, which were not considered a part of India until the 1870s (and whose historical importance was discovered in 1972 by a team of Pakistani and French archeologists), calling it "in India" will (I guarantee it) create an enduring terminological problem, especially if the article comes under any kind of public scrutiny, (b) other tertiary sources such as Britannica now use "South Asia" (as in their articles on "South Asian arts,"  "mathematics, South Asian," and so forth, (c) some of the smaller South Asian countries might not have a large enough historical contribution for composing a full-length article; this way their contribution can be easily incorporated.  Let me know what you think.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  12:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Few points:

 * Britannica begins the history of Pakistan with its actual formation during the modern era and for older history it specifically states 'This section presents the history of Pakistan from the partition of British India (1947) to the present. For a discussion of the earlier history of the region, see India.'

 * Zaheer Baber's entire The Science of Empire: Scientific Knowledge, Civilization, and Colonial Rule in India, a book without any reference to Pakistan, has stood public scrutiny pretty well. It was published by the State University of New York Press and it outlined the history of science and technology in historical India. In effect, the present article here has more references to Pakistan than that entire book.

 * Each country should have its own science article since history of science exists in every country which presently has science. In fact, Pakistan already has a Science and technology in Pakistan article.

 * Speaking strictly as an unpaid volunteer I'm wary of the arguments dealing with the historical dynamics of the state of Pakistan in a science article on India. These can go on forever without conclusion, as can arguments on what exactly is the undisputed definition of South Asia.

Needless to say I support a move to 'History of science and technology in India'.

 JSR   0562  19:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

 * General historiographical usage is usually derived from the established conventions in historical subfields.  "Colonial India," for example, is the term of choice (and not "British India") among historians who study India during the period 1757–1947.  South Asian archeology and the study of neolithic sites in Pakistan has its own conventions.  Pretty much all the scholarly articles (especially by the archeologists) on Mehrgarh use either "South Asia" or simply "Pakistan."  I have already included the original Nature article on dentistry in the references of the Wikipedia Mehrgarh page; that article refers to "South Asia" and "Pakistan," but never "India," not once.   Consider, for example, a scholarly search for "history 'south asia' mehrgarh."  Almost all the articles there are by archeologists or anthropologists, including many by people who have studies and excavated at the Pakistani sites.   Next replace "South Asia" with "India."  What happens? Suddenly the authors are overwhelmingly historians (especially of the POV variety) and not historians of science, archeologists, or paleoanthropologists; however, even there the better known historians use "South Asia" when talking about Mehrgarh, as in this example.  As for your remarks about Zaheer Abbas, all I can say is that even historians of science and technology in colonial India (such as Deepak Kumar) use "South Asia" in other contexts (as in his paper “Developing a History of Science and Technology in South Asia”, Economic      Political Weekly (EPW), June 7, 2003, 2248-2251.").  In other words, the term "History of S&T in South Asia" is not a neologism.

 * I specifically mentioned the two Britannica articles "South Asian arts" and "mathematics, South Asian" because they are closer in character to a "History of Science and Technology." In other words, conventions in the history of arts or mathematics are more relevant to the history of science, than those in a general history of "historical India."  The Britannica "South Asian arts" article is a collaborative effort by a number of scholars including Calambur Sivaramamurti, J.A.B. van Buitenen (late Brobinskoy Professor of Sanskrit, University of Chicago), Edward C. Dimock, Jr., C.M. Naim, A.K. Ramanujan, Nazir Jairazbhoy, Balwant Gargi,  Pramod Chandra (Professor of Art History at Harvard).  If such a stellar group can agree to an article on South Asian arts, I don't see why we can't do it on Wikipedia for South Asian science.  Similarly, the Britannica article, "mathematics, South Asian" by Kim Plofker doesn't have any issues defining South Asia.

 * These issues were discussed a few years ago on Talk:History of India, where user:Nichalp, made these suggestions that were adopted on that page (please see).  Since Nichalp has left Wikipedia, I don't know whether they are still following similar guidelines in history articles.  The way I see it, if you want to include Mehrgarh and even IVC to the extent you have, you will need to change the name of the page to "History of S&T in South Asia."  If you don't want to do that, you have another option; that is to remove (almost in its entirety) the Prehistory section.  Regards,  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  22:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Dear F&f,

Mehrgarh and IVC are exclusive to neither India nor Pakistan and belong the 'prehistory' sections of both. The 'If you don't want to do that, you have another option; that is to remove (almost in its entirety) the Prehistory section' logic also doesn't apply to "Mathematics in India" written by G.G. Joseph or even "Architecture and Landscape in India" by Alexandra Mack (Encyclopaedia of the History of Science, Technology, and Medicine in Non-Western Cultures, ed. Helaine Selin, Springer), both of which deal liberally with the IVC. Why even Deepak Kumar's chapter on India is quite simply titled "India" (The Cambridge History of Science (4)-Eighteenth-Century Science) without making any issues as such. Britannica also mentions the IVC and Balochistan in its India article, devoting greater text and detail than here. Moreover, from the U.S. Library of Congress you have India under which the Science and Technology has no qualms in writing about the IVC.

From a view of existing precedent in 'history of science' articles we have no ambiguity that country specific history of science in case of India has been published in respectable publications and has withstood public scrutiny well.

I see that the discussions for a separate science section in the main 'India' page consistently ended up in a 'no' because an entire article existed here. What is going to done after this article on India vanishes into another article on South Asia? And to 'concurrently invite the Pakistan-, Bangladesh-, Sri Lanka-, Nepal- and any other regional history groups to add or subtract' is to needlessly have editors jostling for space here when they should have an entire article on science for their country like Pakistan and India do.

I also see that we won't agree, and don't always need to. You have voiced your opinion twice and have allowed me to liberally express mine. Now lets let things take their course instead of needlessly getting sucked in here.

Wishing you the Best :)  JSR   0562  02:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

This has the potential to be a long and tedious debate without any obvious or satisfactory resolution, because there is no single right answer, or even a wrong answer here. I myself can argue both sides of the debate. For example Someday there may be a a general scholarly consensus on the terminology but the above sources, as well as the ones listed by F&f and JSR, show that  there is no such consensus right now. So, here on wikipedia, we are likely to go in circles trying to weight sources and have a Talmudic discussions on which historians and scholars are more noteworthy, recent, unbiased and have greater expertise in the specific subject area - a question which IMO is intrinsically unresolvable (although I am sure each expert has an opinion).
 * Pro South Asia
 * It is arguably a less ambiguous title for pre-republic "India", and informs the reader that we are talking about a geographic (or, even socio-cultural) region rather than a nation-state.
 * EB does use South Asia in some of its articles (eg, Arts) about history of India-Pakistan-Sri Lanka-Nepal.
 * Pro India
 * EB itself uses the term India to refer to the larger "South Asian" region in some other articles (eg, history of India), that includes coverage of IVC etc.
 * Searching my library catalog, for books with titles containing "history" +"science" + "South Asia" found 2 books (neither of which were really relevant); while a search for "history" +"science" + "India" finds 50+ books, including the following that appear directly relevant to the article (although I haven't taken a look at them yet):
 * History of Indian science, technology and culture : AD 1000-1800; edited by A. Rahman ; (part of the Project of History of Indian Science, Philosophy and Culture directed by D.P. Chattopadhyaya)
 * History of science and technology in ancient India edited by Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya (3 volumes)
 * History of science and technology in India; edited by O. P. Jaggi (15 volumes)
 * History of science and technology in India; edited by G. Kuppuram (12 volumes)

I think there is simply too much energy wasted on wikipedia to get the article title "just right". I guess the reason for that is that everyone can have a (strong!) opinion on the article title based on simple google searches, without having to actual read scholarly works or contribute to the content of the article. And all to what effect ? After all, with redirects and explication of the article topic in the lede, even a reader who reads the first paragraph of a wikipedia article learns about the alternate and equivalent subject titles. So the only reason to get the article title just right is (1) for the benefit of readers who do not even bother to read the first sentence/paragraph of an article; (2) for "bragging rights", especially in articles dealing with history, politics or religion. Now, I know that F&f and JSR definitely do not fall in the category of fly-by-opinionators; ever more the reason that you both should not waste your valuable time on such trivialities. ... phew, end of my spiel
 * If I may rail a bit ...

 * Suggestion
 * I suggest that we stick with the "in India" title, to be consistent with the sister "in India" articles, as suggested by Nichalp in the discussion linked above; and also because discussion of science in Mehrgarh and other "non-Indian" regions will, I think, be a small part of the history in this article, which will span 3-5000 years covering science in IVC, Vedic civilization, medieval India, colonial India etc.
 * The "in South Asia" title can redirect here for now. Perhaps sometime in the future, that can develop into an article/disambiguation page.
 * We explain to the reader that the "India" in this article does not refer to the region occupied by the Republic of India alone. This should be done in the lede, and again when discussing developments in Mehrgarh etc, by appending the parenthetical "in present day Pakistan" etc as applicable. It will also be useful to add a map (or maps) to help orient the reader.
 * Of course, I won't object if if it is decided that the "in South Asia" title is preferable. Really, either is fine with me, as long as we don't spend (waste IMO) too much time in picking one. Regards. Abecedare (talk) 04:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Out of curiosity I called one university contact and asked him if he could help me write three-four paragraphs each on the architecture, medicine, astronomy, traditional craft, mathematical works, philosophy, metaphysics etc. for countries of the subcontinent, just to demonstrate my point that a full fledged 'history of science' article adhering to the highest standards of Wikipedia's verifiability can be compiled for each one of the countries of the subcontinent (or for any country which presently has science). He said such a project could be doable and further said that for Pakistan we must mention the role of Islam in India of which Pakistan is a very legitimate heir, including the Mughal empire (operated from within the boundaries of present day Republic of India).

 * In short each country can have its own 'history of science' article without all of them having to be crammed at one place. For present rename I can go with 'History of science and technology in India', as previously stated. But since that is likely to be disputed by the veteran academic F&f I can also live with the present title, which may not be perfect but I suppose Indian 'article name ' here and there cannot hurt (Indian cuisine, Indian religions etc.). It also answers, to some extent, F&f's concern of ".... in India".

 * If we compile the 'history of science in South Asia' page then there could be a bulleted list of 'history of science in  'country name'  just like in the history of South Asia page. Since I am both intrigued and motivated somewhat I can help create country specific articles for Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and Pakistan. My latest cinema of India project is nearly done and I'm not doing anything special on WP right now.

 * Regards and the best to both Abecedare & F&f,  JSR   0562  05:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

 * To make sure I am understanding correctly: Are you proposing that this article cover chiefly the science and technological developments within the boundary of Republic of India, i.e., not cover most of IVC that falls within the boundaries of Pakistan ? I think that that is somewhat of an artificial scope, but I can certainly live with it, especially if a "in South Asia" article/disambiguation page links the daughter articles. The narrowed focus should eliminate F&f's objection too, right ? Abecedare (talk) 05:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I was suggesting that the history of science in India cover all periods of history of India and similar should be done, in separate articles, for other countries of the subcontinent. The overlap in 'history of India' and history of Pakistan results in both having Mehrgarh and IVC in their histories (here are the Wikipedia prehistories for India and Pakistan). In short, the science and technology in Pakistan article should also have Mehrgarh and IVC due to the shared nature.  JSR   0562  05:53, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh I see. Lets wait for F&f's input before deciding how to proceed further. The article title issue after all, is not urgent. Regards. Abecedare (talk) 06:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Amazing what a few hours of sleep can do. In addition to knitting the raveled sleeve of care, it can also conjure up scholarly responses from Wikipedia editors.  :)  I agree that getting into a long discussion is futile and a big old waste of time.  As has been observed by others, it is possible (in this day and age) to get chapter and verse citations for even the craziest assertions, and none here are crazy.  Now for the issues on hand.  I feel that having the material on both Pakistan and India pages will create content forks (frowned upon bigtime on Wikipedia). I would be agreeable to a solution in which the Mehrgarh part (even the IVC part) in the Indian article is substantially reduced and the details added to the Pakistan page.  Nichalp was very clear about this.  He even says it in the link I provided: that Baluchistan (say) 100 years ago does not belong to History of India pages (let alone Baluchistan 7000 years ago).  I am particularly concerned about Mehrgarh for the reasons that it has thrown Indian archeologists (lately increasingly, in their retirement years, yearning for Hindu nationalist certainties) out for a loop, since it establishes connections farther west, instead of India-wards, and since Indian scholars have had no hand in this research.  Anyway, before I wax ineloquent some more, let me say that at the very least the IVC (Pakistan)/Mehrgarh content should be whittled down in the Indian article.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  11:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * PS With regards Mehrgarh, the task is to reconcile this link with whatever outcome we agree to. And these two links on in vivo drilling of teeth as well: link1, link2.  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  12:14, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

A few hours of sleep for you and few hours of work for me :) Here is the shortest way that I can propose:

 * Minimize Mehrgarh and write clearly that the origins of India's science are actually in present-day Pakistan. That should take care of any BJP inspired instabilities that may arise.
 * Point out clearly that even Harappa and Mohenjo-daro are in present-day Pakistan.
 * Write more on the India side of the IVC and use that chiefly instead of the Pakistan side.

Three short steps. I'm going to check back later tonight or tomorrow to know what you think.

 JSR   0562  15:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Few points:

 * I checked back and found that Mehrgarh is already minimized and neutral. The very first line already notes that: 'The history of science and technology in India begins with prehistoric human activity at Mehrgarh, in present-day Pakistan'. The very next para also begins with 'The inhabitants of Mehrgarh (7000–3300 BCE), an archaeological site in Pakistan.. '. Mehrgarh is mentioned in just the lead and that one paragraph.

 * Its admittedly a slip to not have noted that above when writing the first point but it probably slipped my mind from when I came back from work. For archaeology of Mehrgarh: Jonathan Mark Kenoyer, "Neolithic Period", Encyclopedia of India (vol. 3), ed. Stanley Wolpert is as good a source as any but lets just leave it at one para with repeated mentions of Pakistan so F&f's concerns on BJP are addressed to an extent.

 * The next four paras deal with IVC so some of it can be replaced from similar material from the India side of the IVC to further address F&f's concerns.

 * We can also clearly write "Harappa, in present-day Pakistan" and "Mohen-jodaro, in present-day Pakistan".

 * I hope these steps are found to be adequate.  JSR   0562  18:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Section break
Sincerely,  JSR   0562  08:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There are two specific mentions to present-day Pakistani sites: a) Mehrgarh which now ends in less than one paragrah. b) Balakot which may have the earliest ovens and furnaces in the Indus culture. Both of these now have "present day Pakistan" written clearly (Mehrgarh already did).
 * I have removed Biagi (2008). This was done to cut down on specific mentions to Pakistan sites.
 * A couple of lines on Kalibangan added.

 * Hi there JSR. Many apologies for not getting back earlier, but little emergencies in our household kept me off-Wikipedia.  Yes, I agree that the Mehrgarh part is small.  I was mulling over something else you said above (or might have said).  I was wondering if it might be worth making the point that Mehrgarh has significant links with other neolithic sites westwards of it, such as Iran, Mesopotamia and so forth, and that the general view now seems to be that Mehrgarh (after consistent drought or some permanent climate change) itself died out, but (perhaps as a result of migration) spawned chalcolithic cultures to its east, which in turn later spawned the IVC.  I'm sure we can find reliable references for this.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  21:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * PS Also, would you want to mention the domestication of chicken in the IVC? True, "domestication" is not really ivory-tower science, but "stockbreeding" does have some connections with science.  I actually once collected references for this and the real facts are more complicated.  The chicken it seems, was domesticated in a number of different regions (such as Burma, South East Asia, and even China, in addition to South Asia); however, the strain that made its way around the world (and is now eaten around the word, was the domesticated Indian Jungle Fowl) which was known in the IVC.  Here is the link to User:Fowler%26fowler/Chicken, where I have that information, should you want to look at it.  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  21:05, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * PPS I noticed a map on the progress in rail construction by the 1870s. I have an actual British House of Commons map from 1871 which shows all the constructed (or proposed and soon to be constructed) lines.  I will scan it and upload soon (since I need it in the Company rule in India article.  Also, I have a 1909 Imperial Gazetteer railways map somewhere. ... Yes, I just remembered, it is here.  Do you think comparing the picture in 1871 with that in 1909 might provide some useful (encyclopedic) information?   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  21:07, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

 * All of what has been proposed above sounds good. I may, however, need a couple of days (all of the weekend) to finish some real life work that I have been putting off before getting back to Wikipedia. I hope we can move at a gradual pace.  JSR   0562  09:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Mehrgarh trading links and British Indian railways image comparison is done.  JSR   0562  05:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Organization
Indian contribution to science and technology is vast, having had a huge influence on the world. However this article doesn't really show that. Its quite disorganized and needs to be improved. Maybe a similar structure to the 'History of science and technology in China' article would help improve this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.117.71 (talk) 13:51, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

 * I am commenting to clarify that the organization of paragraphs specifically is incredibly disorganized. One in the Middle Kingdoms section covers textiles, sugar, math, etc., all in the same paragraph. If it is organized chronologically, that should be made more clear. At the very least, transitions should be added between different topics within the same paragraph. Ideally, these should be separated into their own separate, smaller paragraphs with time clearly marked. 201.202.13.198 (talk) 01:15, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that the second sentence of the prehistory section is missing it's lead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.117.71 (talk) 17:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Medicine?
I don't see much information particularly relating to the history of medicine in this article, and I was wondering if anyone knows whether there is currently a separate article on that topic? If not, any thoughts on whether creating a separate article would be preferable or not compared to adding information focusing on medicine to this article? I can see how it would deserve a separate article but don't want to start one unnecessarily.

I'm organising training sessions at the National Library of Scotland, and as they have some pretty strong digital collections relating to the medical history of British Colonial India, I was hoping I might encourage them to use the training session as an opportunity to contribute some of that information to Wikipedia. Would appreciate thoughts and responses very much to that idea, and also to whether it would be better perhaps to create a subsection in the article on the British Raj. There's currently a section on Famines, Epidemics, and Public Health, as well as a rather orphaned article, but both seem to me to be quite limiting in scope. Again, greatly appreciate the input! ACrockford (talk) 13:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * See my reply at Talk:British Raj.  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  16:34, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Global air circulation-monsoon winds
Mapping 41.114.71.139 (talk) 18:15, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:52, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Ship compartments.jpg


text:
Love Symbol

Love Symbol is the fourteenth studio album by American recording artist Prince, and the second of two that featured his backing band the New Power Generation. It was released on October 13, 1992, by Paisley Park Records and Warner Bros. Records. It was originally conceived as a "fantasy rock soap opera" with various spoken segues throughout, and contains elements of R&B, funk, pop, rock, and soul.

The official title of the album is an unpronounceable symbol depicted on its cover art, which Prince copyrighted under the title "Love Symbol #2", and adopted as his stage name from 1993 to 2000 to protest his treatment by Warner Bros. Records (which had refused to steadily release his back catalog of unreleased music, and trademarked his given name for promotional purposes). The release has been referred to under titles such as Love Symbol, Symbol Album, or Symbol.

Its first two singles, "Sexy MF" and "My Name Is Prince", achieved modest success on the US pop chart, though both made the top ten in the United Kingdom. Conversely, the third single, "7", was not as successful in the United Kingdom, but was a top ten hit in the United States.

Storyline
An early configuration of the album contained as many as eight segues, as well as an introduction setting the scene of Prince's self-proclaimed "rock opera". These helped to provide a narrative thread to the songs which when taken together explained the album's conceptual storyline: An Egyptian Princess (played by Mayte Garcia, in her debut on a Prince album) falls in love with a rock star (Prince) and entrusts him with a sacred religious artefact known as the Three Chains of Turin (colloquially referred to by Prince as the 3 Chains o' Gold) after escaping from seven assassins who had murdered her Father in cold blood in an attempt to obtain the priceless relic, as referenced in "7".

In a last-minute attempt to add an additional song: "I Wanna Melt with U", which contains several sampled elements also present in "7" (and which was originally considered as a non-album B-side for the "7" maxi single), Prince had to cut many of the segues in order for its inclusion and to fit within album length constraints. The few that remain are somewhat confusing without the connective tissue these excised segues had helped provide. The unreleased segues have long been available amongst fans in the years since, and it is likely that any future Super Deluxe Edition release of the album by the Paisley Park Estate will see them reinstated.

On the released album, the segues featuring Kirstie Alley as reporter Vanessa Bartholomew are mostly kept intact. In these, she scrambles to salvage some sense of an interview with the elusive rock star (Prince) but fails at the first hurdle when he promptly hangs-up after she informs him he is being recorded. In a later segue, Prince toys with Vanessa and her line of increasingly intrusive questioning by being purposefully vague and responding with nonsensical answers for his own amusement. A few lines in which Vanessa enquires about the Three Chains of Turin was edited from the final sequence provided for mastering and release.

3 Chains o' Gold, (a direct-to-video promotional film produced and directed by Prince), was eventually released in the Fall of 1994 even though filming for the project had been ongoing since 1991 and was completed in time with the intention of being a lavish visual companion piece to tie-in with its album counterpart upon release. Despite Prince’s protestations (after financing much of the project himself), Warner Bros Records nonetheless held it back. The film follows the sequence and narrative structure of the Love Symbol Album also containing a number of the excised segues originally intended for the album.

Marketing
Warner Bros. Records pushed for "7" to be released as the album's first single. However, Prince pushed for "My Name Is Prince" to serve as lead single, as he felt that its hip-hop sound would appeal better to listeners that had enjoyed his previous album Diamonds and Pearls. "Sexy MF" would ultimately serve as the album's lead single.

Critical reception
The Love Symbol Album was voted the 14th best record of 1992 in the Pazz & Jop, an annual poll of American critics nationwide, published by The Village Voice. Robert Christgau, the poll's creator, later wrote of the album: "Designed to prove his utter inexhaustibility in the wake of Diamonds and Pearls, by some stroke of commerce his best-selling album since Purple Rain, this absurdly designated 'rock soap opera' (is he serious? is he ever? is he ever not?) proves mainly that he's got the funk."

Track listing
All tracks written by Prince, except where noted; all tracks arranged and produced by Prince and The New Power Generation.

Every use of the pronoun "I" throughout the song titles and liner notes is represented by a stylized "👁" symbol. Prince fans commonly transliterate this symbol as "Eye".

Special editions
Several editions of this album were released. Early pressings of the album featured an embossed gold love symbol on the jewel case, sometimes matte, sometimes glossy. Later editions feature it printed on the booklet or not present at all. A Special Limited Edition Gold Box CD was released with a purple love symbol engraved in the golden box. One boxed set came with a bonus "Sexy MF" CD single, another with a specially created CD single of "My Name Is Prince" mixes.

Early configuration
Below is the early version of the album with all the original segues. "The Sacrifice of Victor" is slightly longer on the early configuration.

 * 1) "Intro"
 * 2) "My Name Is Prince"
 * 3) "Sexy MF"
 * 4) "Segue"
 * 5) "Love 2 the 9's"
 * 6) "The Morning Papers"
 * 7) "The Max"
 * 8) "Segue"
 * 9) "Blue Light"
 * 10) "Segue"
 * 11) "Sweet Baby"
 * 12) "Segue"
 * 13) "The Continental"
 * 14) "Damn U"
 * 15) "Segue"
 * 16) "Arrogance"
 * 17) "The Flow"
 * 18) "Segue"
 * 19) "7"
 * 20) "Segue"
 * 21) "And God Created Woman"
 * 22) "3 Chains o' Gold"
 * 23) "Segue"
 * 24) "The Sacrifice of Victor"

Personnel
Prince and The New Power Generation Additional personnel
 * Prince – lead and backing vocals, electric and acoustic guitars, Roland D-50, Korg T3, Roland JD-800, Akai S1000, bass guitar, drums, percussion, programming, Linn LM-1, finger cymbals, fingersnaps, Publison IM90 Infernal Machine
 * Mayte – vocals
 * Tony M. – raps
 * Damon Dickson – dancer, percussion
 * Levi Seacer, Jr. – electric guitars
 * Tommy Barbarella – Korg T3, Roland JD-800, Roland A-80, Roland A-50, Roland D-550, Hammond organ, E-mu Proteus 1 & 2, E-mu Emax II
 * Sonny T. – bass guitar
 * Michael Bland – drums
 * Kirk Johnson – percussion, Roland SPD-8
 * Carmen Electra – guest rap on "The Continental"
 * The Steeles (Jevetta, Jearlyn, JD and Fred Steele) – backing vocals on "The Sacrifice of Victor"
 * Kirstie Alley plays frustrated reporter Vanessa Bartholomew in the two included segue tracks
 * Eric Leeds – saxophone on "Blue Light"
 * Michael Koppelman – bass guitar on "Blue Light"
 * DJ Graves – scratching
 * Mike Nelson, Brian Gallagher, and Steve Strand – horns
 * Airiq Anest – programming
 * Clare Fischer – string arrangements

Production

 * Arranged by Prince and The New Power Generation
 * Produced by Prince and The New Power Generation; additional production by Keith Cohen; additional production on "I Wanna Melt with You" by George Black; strings produced by Clare Fischer
 * Recorded by Michael Koppelman, Dave Friedlander, Steve Noonan, Ray Hahnfeldt and Brian Poer; strings recorded by Larry Mann; Kirstie Alley's voice recorded by Peter Arata
 * Mixed by Keith Cohen, Michael Koppelman, Tom Garneau, Bob Rosa and Steve Beltran; additional mixing by Dave Aron, Airiq Anest, Steve Durkee, Biran Poer, Steve Noonan and Ray Hahnfeldt
 * Mastered by Brian Gardner and Steve Noonan

Publishing

 * All songs published by Controversy Music/WB Music Corp.; except:
 * Track 1 (Copyright NPG Music/Michael Anthony Music), track 15 (NPG Music)
 * Track 12 (Controversy Music/WB Music Corp; contains a sample of "I Know You Got Soul" by Eric B. & Rakim which is published by Songs of Polygram International Inc./Robert Hill Music; contains a sample of "Jazz It Up" originally by C.F.M. Band and also a sample of "Niggaz 4 Life" by N.W.A; copyright Ruthless Attack Muzik/Sony Songs/Bridgeport Music).
 * Track 14 published by Controversy Music; additional publishing by Powerforce Music/Budget Music; sample of "Tramp" by Lowell Fulsom published by Blues Interactions, Inc.

Singles

 * "Sexy MF" maxi-single (#66 US, #76 US R&B, #4 UK)
 * "My Name Is Prince" maxi-single (#36 US, #25 US R&B, #7 UK)
 * "7" maxi-single (#7 US, #3 US R&B, #27 UK)
 * "Damn U" (#105 US, #32 US R&B)
 * "The Morning Papers" maxi-single (#44 US, #8 US R&B, #52 UK)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Love Symbol


text: File:Millenniumcover.jpg

title: File:Millenniumcover.jpg


text:
Menas of Ethiopia

Menas  or Minas, throne name Admas Sagad I (Ge’ez: አድማስ ሰገድ, died 1563), was Emperor of Ethiopia from 1559 until his death in 1563, and a member of the Solomonic dynasty. He was a brother of Gelawdewos and the son of Emperor Dawit II.

Early life
According to a genealogy collected by James Bruce, Menas' father Lebna Dengel arranged Menas to be married to the daughter of Robel, governor of Bora and Selawe; upon becoming empress she took the name Adimas Moas. They had two children, Fiqtor and Theodora.

During Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi's invasion of Ethiopia, Menas had been captured but treated well as a valuable prisoner. The typical fate of prisoners of war at the time was to be castrated and enslaved. This clemency came to an end in 1542, when the Imam, desperate for help from his fellow Muslims, included Menas in an assortment of extravagant gifts to the sultan of Yemen in return for military aid. Portuguese Jesuit, Jeronimo Lobo stated that he was held a long-time prisoner in Yemen where he had converted to Islam.

However, Imam Ahmad's son was later captured in the aftermath of the Battle of Wayna Daga, Gelawdewos used his prisoner to recover his brother Menas; according to Pankhurst, "when the royal family was reunited there were many days of celebrations."

Reign
Menas was crowned emperor at Mengista Samayat, now called Mengisto, southwest of Debre Werq in Gojjam, and shortly afterwards he campaigned against the Beta Israel in Semien province. According to Jeronimo Lobo, Menas was known to have all the bad qualities of his brother but not any of the good.

Menas made no use of his ancestors capitals in Shewa and Fatagar or of his predecessor's (Galawdewos) in Wej, and instead he established his residence in Guba'e (now known as Emfraz) a settlement located near Lake Tana.

He banished the Jesuit bishop André de Oviedo and his companions to a village between Axum and Adwa called Maigwagwa (Tigrinya may gwagwa, 'noisy water'), which the Jesuits had optimistically renamed Fremona, after the missionary Frumentius.

About one year into his reign, Bahr Negus Yeshaq rose in revolt in Tigray against Menas, proclaiming Tazkaro, the illegitimate son of Emperor Menas' brother, Yaqob, as negus. Tazkaro was supported by the leader of the Portuguese who had followed Cristóvão da Gama into Ethiopia, and allegedly by "the Prime Men of the Kingdom." This revolt occupied Menas' attention for the remainder of his short reign. He marched into Lasta, at which point Yeshaq retreated into Shire. The emperor found him there and defeated Yeshaq, then turned south to Emfraz where he defeated the remaining supporters of Tazkaro on 2 July 1561. Tazkaro was captured, and Menas afterwards ordered him thrown from the rock of Lamalmon to his death.

Bahr Negash Yeshaq then obtained the support of Özdemir, the Ottoman Pasha of Massawa, and proclaimed Tazkaro's infant brother, Marqos, nəgusä nägäst. In 20 April 1562 Emperor Menas defeated, or at least put to flight, Bahr Negash Yeshaq and his Turkish, Arab, and Portuguese allies.

According to the Royal Chronicle of his reign, which Bruce follows in his account, the Emperor fell back to Atronsa Maryam to regroup for another assault on the Bahr Negash, but came down with a fever during the march, and died at Kolo on 1 February 1563. Budge, however, states Minas returned to Shewa, and then to the lowlands of Wag, where he was seized by the fever and died after a short illness.

title: Menas of Ethiopia


text:
Hoosier Pass (Continental Divide)

Hoosier Pass (elevation 11542 ft) is a high mountain pass in central Colorado, in the Rocky Mountains of the western United States. The name derives from Indiana, nicknamed the "Hoosier State," which was the original home of many pioneers.

The pass is located on the Continental Divide at the northern end of the Mosquito Range, in a gap between Mount Lincoln (west) and Hoosier Ridge (east). It sits on the boundary between Park (south) and Summit (north) counties.

The pass provides a route between the headwaters of the Blue River (tributary of the Colorado River) to the north and the headwaters of the South Platte River in South Park to the south. It is traversed by State Highway 9 between the towns of Breckenridge (north) and Fairplay (south).

The highway over the pass provides an alternative route from Denver to the ski areas near Breckenridge and Keystone. It is generally open all year round, is traversable by all vehicles in good weather, but is occasionally closed during winter storms. The road over the pass has a smooth approach on the south side but has several switchbacks on the north side with a grade of 8%.

This pass is the highest point on the TransAmerica Trail, a transcontinental bicycle route that stretches from Yorktown, Virginia to Astoria, Oregon.

Water diversion
Hoosier Pass is the location of the oldest known transbasin diversion project in Colorado, a ditch diverting water from a tributary of the Blue River to the Middle Fork of the South Platte River. This water was used for placer mining above Alma. By 1929, the 1.8 mile (2.9 km) East Hoosier Ditch and the 1.3 mile (2 km) West Hoosier Ditch were in operation, able to divert an aggregate 77 cubic feet per second (2.2 m3/s) of water across the continental divide.

The City of Colorado Springs obtained the water rights to these ditches and constructed the Hoosier Pass Tunnel to replace them as part of the Continental-Hoosier Diversion System. The 10 foot (3 m) diameter 1.5 mile (2.4 km) water tunnel was completed in 1951 and delivers up to 500 cubic feet per second (14.2m3/s) to Montgomery Reservoir about a mile southwest of the pass, from which the water is piped 70 miles (113 km) to Colorado Springs. Average annual diversions through the tunnel have been on the order of 9000 acre feet (11 million m3).

Another pass
There is another Hoosier Pass in Colorado (elevation 10313 ft) located in Teller County, near Cripple Creek.

Climate
Hoosier Pass has a subarctic climate (Köppen Dfc).

title: Hoosier Pass (Continental Divide)


text:
Eutychianus

Eutychianus:
 * Pope Eutychian (275–283)
 * Flavius Eutychianus, Roman consul in 398
 * Eutychianus of Adana, 6th century writer

title: Eutychianus


text:
Ark (Norwegian band)

Ark was a progressive metal band from Norway founded by guitarist Tore Østby (Conception, D. C. Cooper, Frankie's Playground, Redrum) and drummer John Macaluso (TNT, Riot, Spread Eagle, Alex Masi, Yngwie Malmsteen, Powermad), who later joined up with singer Jørn Lande to record two albums. Lande, Østby and Macaluso were joined by Randy Coven (Steve Vai, Steve Morse) on bass and Mats Olausson (Yngwie Malmsteen) on keyboards for their second effort.

History
Ark's self-titled debut album was released in 1999. After touring to support the follow-up album Burn the Sun, Ark went on hiatus and eventually broke up, with Jørn Lande joining Roland Grapow and Uli Kusch in the classic power metal band Masterplan, as well as pushing his own solo career.

Reunion and disbandment
John Macaluso updated his discography to include a new Ark album, called Aradiokaos. Very little has been heard thus far, but when the news broke on Metal Storm, screenshots confirming the project were posted. All original members other than Jorn will be on the new album, but his successor has yet to be revealed.

Macaluso has stated several times on his personal Facebook profile that Ark was working with the new album and a new line-up. But his last post concerning the subject has put an end on the band's history, with his confirmation of the cancellation of the production and the beginning of a new band. The band officially disbanded in 2011.

On 20 May 2014 bassist Randy Coven's death was announced and keyboard player Mats Olausson's death was announced a year later.

Members

 * Jørn Lande – vocals (1999–2002), keyboards (1990–2000)
 * Tore Østby – guitar (1999–2002, 2009–2011), bass (1990–2000)
 * John Macaluso − drums (1999–2002, 2009–2011), vocals (2009–2011)
 * Randy Coven − bass (2000–2002, 2009–2011; died 2014)
 * Mats Olausson − keyboards (2000–2002, 2009–2011; died 2015)

 * Additional musicians
 * Ingar Amlien – bass
 * Trond Nagell-dahl – keyboards

Discography

 * Ark (1999)
 * Burn the Sun (2001)

title: Ark (Norwegian band)


text: User talk:81.174.186.149

title: User talk:81.174.186.149


text:
Mother culture

A mother culture is a term for an earlier people's culture that has a great and widespread influence on some later cultures and people. Though the original culture may fade, the mother culture's influence grows for ages in the future. Later civilizations either learn and build upon their old ways or can learn them through peaceful or military assimilation. Although the term is used by anthropologists and archaeologists, it is used sparingly since it oversimplifies and in some cases even misrepresents the relationships between cultures.

The most frequently cited examples of mother cultures are Ancient Egypt in the Mediterranean, and the Olmec in Mesoamerica.

Daniel Quinn
In the work of Daniel Quinn—first mentioned in his 1992 philosophical novel, Ishmael—Mother Culture is used as a collective term for any given culture's most influencing features (its philosophies, attitudes, values, viewpoints, etc.) that, however, are usually not consciously recognized as being culturally-specific by the members of that culture. In other words, Mother Culture is the set of "unquestioned influences" or "hidden premises" that the members of a culture merely take for granted as being universally true (rather than, in fact, being culturally-specific), and that largely determine (1) how the members of that culture experience and view the world, and, therefore, (2) how they actually behave in the world. Because every person is culturally biased to a greater or lesser extent, Quinn reasons that every culture must have a certain crucial element that instills in its members this firm position of bias: this is Mother Culture. Quinn often uses the term Mother Culture as a feminine personification.

According to Quinn, every Mother Culture feeds its followers a particular, culturally-skewed mythology that greatly influences how these people perceive themselves and their environment. Mother Culture works to uphold (and to pacify any dissent against) the culture and its specific worldview. Quinn claims that "every culture has a Mother Culture" but warns that in a self-destructive culture like our own globalized civilization, Mother Culture's promotion of the status quo amounts to captivity, in which we are unable to fathom any alternative lifestyles other than the one Mother Culture tells us to live out (because we cannot think beyond the hidden premises our culture lives by—the cultural "truths" that Mother Culture insists are unquestionable). Unfortunately, because we, as a culture, are destroying the Earth, while many of us would wish to stop this destruction, Quinn asserts that we cannot seem to find the "bars" of our proverbial cage because Mother Culture has given us certain assumptions that we assume without question, never recognizing them as false from the start. Quinn has frequently claimed that two of the most fundamental (but false) premises communicated to us by our Mother Culture, in particular, include the following: "There is only one right way to live: ours" and "We must cling to civilization at all costs, even if it kills us." Quinn further describes such premises in his discussion on memes in Beyond Civilization.

title: Mother culture


text:
User talk:Ethomsen

Edit-a-thon
Hi Ethomsen, looking forward to seeing you tomorrow for the Wikipedia intro and edit-a-thon tomorrow morning! Hope you can still make it. We'll have an intro for beginners at 10am; if you're a more experienced Wikipedian, join us at 11am.

Click here for directions: Offices of EchoDitto, 1 Davis Square, Somerville. (Next to the Red Line station, upstairs from CVS.) -Pete (talk) 23:17, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Peabody Essex Museum Edit-a-thon on May 3
Hi Elizabeth,

We're excited to see you at the Peabody Essex Museum on Saturday for our very-first Wikipedia edit-a-thon!

As one of the more experienced editors coming to the event, I was wondering if you could help us introduce new editors to all the how-to's of Wikipedia. It's looking like there will be a lot of first-time editors there (both PEM staff and outside editors). I'm sure that they will have lots of questions about how Wikipedia works, creating new articles, etc., and it would be great if you could help support them during the editing session in the afternoon and answer any questions they may have.

In the morning we'll be hosting a "Wiki 101" session to introduce new editors to Wikipedia. This will cover how Wikipedia works, the goals of Wikipedia, and some basics of getting set up with an account and creating/editing an article. Would you be willing to help us lead this session? If so let Ed Rodley or myself know. We'd really love to have your help!

Either way, I hope we can rely on you all to help out the new editors during the afternoon.

Looking forward to meeting you, Cathy — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cathypem (talk • contribs) 23:16, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

January 2016
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Hi there!
Hello! This is an example message. It's great to meet you at Meetup/Phillips Academy 2016! Tony Tan · talk  18:35, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject United States/The 50,000 Challenge
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Reference on Tarmac
Hey Ethomsen!

Just a quick note to let you know I've re-added the reference you removed on Tarmac, as it's still a useful reference. Now that the link is unfortunately dead, we can use the  and   parameters to pass in a link to an archival service such as archive.org. Most of the time, you can search it for a URL and find an old version of the page that still has the data, and just add the parameters to the citation template. If you look at the reference now as it exists on the page, you can see there's a link to both the archived version, and the original (now dead) link.

Cheers :D

 [ stwalkerster | talk ]  19:07, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I should have thought of that -- thanks!

Invitation to editathons at BU
HI! I'm traveling to Boston to host an editathon at BU on April 21 and April 22nd. I'd love to have some more experienced editors join us. I hope you can attend and feel free to bring people! Looking forward--Heathart (talk) 15:47, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Sunday July 16: New England Wiknic @ Cambridge, MA
(You can subscribe/unsubscribe from future notifications for Boston-area events by adding or removing your name from this list.)

hi, you're invited to an RfC discussion regarding Bruno Bettelheim article
As a past contributor to the article's Talk page, you're invited to a Request for Comment (RfC) discussion on the article's lead sentence. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 01:41, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bruno_Bettelheim#rfc_7DDF8CC

title: User talk:Ethomsen


text:
ECLS

ECLS may refer to:

 * Environmental Control and Life Support System, support system of crewed spacecraft
 * Extracorporeal life support, extracorporeal membrane oxygenation

title: ECLS


text:
Come (album)

Come is the fifteenth studio album by American recording artist Prince. It was released on August 16, 1994, by Warner Bros. Records. At the time of its release, Prince was in a public dispute with Warner Bros. A lack of promotion from the label and Prince himself resulted in Come under-performing on American record charts, stalling at No. 15, and becoming his first album since Controversy (1981) to not yield any top 10 singles in the US. However, it was more successful overseas, reaching the top 10 across Europe and topping the UK Albums Chart.

The album would be Prince's final Warner Bros. album under his name. For the remainder of his contract with the company, his name would be represented by the unpronounceable "Love Symbol", and he would be referred to in the media as "The Artist Formerly Known as Prince".

Recording
Most of the songs from the Come album were recorded at Paisley Park Studios and The Record Plant in early 1993 during a highly prolific time for Prince. The guitar sound on "Orgasm" is a sample of a feedback guitar solo from a previous Prince track, "Private Joy" from his 1981 album Controversy. The moaning on "Orgasm" is that of Vanity, recorded in 1983 for the unreleased track "Vibrator." In the liner notes, Vanity is credited as "she knows".

Concept evolution
After Prince's name change to an unpronounceable symbol, he intended to release new songs under that moniker in formats other than albums. He would fulfil his contract to Warner Bros. by delivering unreleased material from his music vault. Prince conceived an "interactive musical experience" called Glam Slam Ulysses—a musical loosely based on Homer's Odyssey. These songs and many others would travel back and forth between different projects, including a planned triple-album called The Dawn. Material from this era later ended up on Come, The Gold Experience and The Beautiful Experience, among other projects.

In late May 1993, Prince's then-band member Mayte Garcia sent a letter to a Prince fanzine listing the tracks "Come", "Endorphinmachine", "Space", "Pheromone", "Loose!", "Papa", "Dark", "Race", "Solo" and "Poem", which all ended up being included in some form on Come. She also included "Interactive", "Peach" and "Pope". Most of these songs were newly written, except "Peach" (written in 1992), and "Race" (written in 1991 during the Love Symbol Album sessions—it uses a scratching sound effect similar to Love Symbol Album's "The Continental").

On March 6, 1994, Prince submitted a tape of eight songs to Dutch radio stations which included the song "Pheromone". Five days later, he submitted the first version of the Come album to Warner Bros. The album consisted of: "Poem", "Interactive", "Endorphinemachine", "Space", "Pheromone", "Loose!", "Papa", "Race", "Dark", "Solo", and "Strays of the World". This version of the album is exactly 45 minutes in length and is known as the Come Test Pressing. The title track was absent. Warner Bros. rejected this version, and asked for the title track along with some other new material, such as the recent hit "The Most Beautiful Girl in the World". Prince went back into the studio and tooled with the title track, creating an 11-minute horn-boosted sexual romp.

With these additions, Warner Bros. agreed to release the album. But Prince decided to change it once again, removing the more rock-oriented tracks "Interactive", "Endorphinemachine", and "Strays of the World." He also broke up "Poem" into segues throughout the album, with the remainder retitled as "Orgasm", and included the newly-written "Letitgo". This final version was submitted to Warner Bros. on the same day as a configuration of The Gold Experience. Prince wanted them to release both albums simultaneously, so the Prince material would compete with the one released under the symbolic moniker in the charts (with the latter having more commercial material). Warner Bros. accepted both albums, but refused to release them both at the same time fearing the market would have too much Prince material in stock.

Album cover
The album cover photo was taken in front of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona. Outtakes from the photoshoot were included in the 1994 book Prince Presents: The Sacrifice of Victor. The cover also proclaims "Prince: 1958–1993", indicating that the "Prince" identity had symbolically died in 1993 and had been reborn under the new Love Symbol alias.

Post-release and reception
Upon release, Come received little support from Prince, who derided the album as "old material", despite the fact that many of the tracks had been recorded during the same sessions that produced The Gold Experience. Since Prince placed the more up-tempo and commercial material from these sessions on The Gold Experience, the overall tone of Come is somewhat dark and experimental in nature. Despite Prince's apparent marketing neglect, Come performed moderately well, reaching number 15 in the United States, going gold and receiving heavy R&B airplay with the single "Letitgo". In the United Kingdom, the album was a huge hit, debuting at number 1. Prince also released two maxi singles in support of the album.

In 1993, a funkier instrumental version of the song "Pheromone" was used as the theme music for the BET music video program, Video LP.

Track listing
All songs written by Prince, except "Solo", music composed by Prince and lyrics written by David Henry Hwang.

Promotional vinyl bonus tracks:
 * 1) "Space" (Universal Love Remix) – 6:10 (singing different lyrics than the album track)
 * 2) "Space" (Funky Stuff Remix) – 5:42
 * 3) "Letitgo" (QDIII Instrumental Mix) – 5:00 (retitled "Instrumental" for single release)
 * 4) "Letitgo" (J-Sw!ft #3 Instrumental) – 5:43 (retitled "(-) Sherm Stick Edit" for single release)

Personnel

 * Prince – lead vocals and various instruments
 * Tommy Barbarella – keyboards (2, 7)
 * Mr. Hayes – keyboards (2, 7)
 * Sonny T. – bass (2, 5, 7)
 * Michael B. – drums (2, 5, 7)
 * Brian Gallagher – tenor saxophone (1, 6, 7, 9)
 * Kathy J. – baritone saxophone (1, 6, 7, 9)
 * Joseph Robinson – trumpet (1, 6, 7, 9)
 * Steve Strand – trumpet (1, 6, 7, 9)
 * Dave Jensen – trumpet (1, 6, 7, 9)
 * Michael B. Nelson – trombone (1, 6, 7, 9)
 * Ricky Peterson – keyboards (9)
 * Eric Leeds – flute (9)
 * Mayte – backing vocals (6)
 * Kathleen Bradford – backing vocals (9)
 * Jearlyn Steele Battle – "Face the music" looped sample (6)
 * Vanity – vocalizations (10)

Singles and Hot 100 chart placings

 * "Letitgo" (#31 US, #10 US R&B)
 * "Space" (#71 US R&B)

title: Come (album)


text:
Global Standard Stratigraphic Age

In the stratigraphy sub-discipline of geology, a Global Standard Stratigraphic Age, abbreviated GSSA, is a chronological reference point and criterion in the geologic record used to define the boundaries (an internationally sanctioned benchmark point) between different geological periods, epochs or ages on the overall geologic time scale in a chronostratigraphically useful rock layer. A worldwide multidisciplinary effort has been ongoing since 1974 to define such important metrics. The points and strata need be widespread and contain an identifiable sequence of layers or other unambiguous marker (identifiable or quantifiable) attributes.

GSSAs are defined by the International Commission on Stratigraphy (ICS) under the auspices of their parent organization, the International Union of Geological Sciences (IUGS), and are used primarily for time dating of rock layers older than 630 million years ago, lacking a good fossil record.

The geologic record is more restricted before about 539 million years ago. This is because the Earth's crust in geological time scales is constantly being recycled by tectonic and weathering forces, and older rocks and especially readily accessible exposed strata that can act as a time calibration are rare.

For more recent periods, a Global Boundary Stratotype Section and Point (GSSP), largely based on paleontology and improved methods of fossil dating, is used to define such boundaries. In contrast to GSSAs, GSSPs are based on important events and transitions within a particular stratigraphic section. In older sections, there is insufficient fossil record or well preserved sections to identify the key events necessary for a GSSP, so GSSAs are defined based on fixed dates and selected criteria. The ICS first attempts to meet the standards of the GSSPs (see below) and if those fail, usually have enough information to make a preliminary selection of several competing GSSA prospects or proposals.

title: Global Standard Stratigraphic Age


text:
Talk:Greek festival

Fundraising activity
Greek festivals are a common orthodox church fundraising activity all over the US, as a search for "Greek fest" or "Greek festival" shows. The subject is notable. Gazpacho 19:33, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * It also happens to be a public festival which attracts tens of thousands, in its heyday hundreds of thousands and it is a specific Proper noun, not a generic title which likely has its own event name given by the specific church.

Original article being renamed Greek Fest (Jones Beach) and I hope this one becomes Greek Fest (Greek Orthodox Church)--Whenracismreacheswikipedia 08:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

VfD
On April 23, 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Votes for deletion/Greek Fest for a record of the discussion. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 21:24, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Church-State separation
I was wondering whether such festivals respect Church-State separation laws. If you are going to create a public event in any Western society, it should ideally include everyone, and should not merely serve as a tool for just one religion, so that it can try to proselytize people. Another thing is that the Greek Orthodox Church is ideally destined for Greek people who already have a Greek culture, so it cannot really attempt to include people who are outside Greek culture without seeking to culturally assimilate them. I also find that festival organizers tend to misrepresent the Greek Orthodox Church's ecumenical relations with Catholic Church and the Protestant churches, given that extensive inter-Church dialogue has occured since the 1960s. ADM (talk) 08:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Greek Festivals celebrate Greek culture. They are open to the public and are basically fundraisers for the churches. Additionally the Greek Orthodox Church is not only for Greek people, the liturgy, or service, is just based on the original Greek rite. The majority of the liturgy at my church is in English and most people, especially the children and young adults do not know the Greek language. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 11:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The government is not involved, so there is no basis for a church-state argument. 2604:2D80:B588:E900:9C2:1B40:C75:B7D9 (talk) 14:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

OverView of Greek Festivals
When attending the Greek festivals there are many interesting things that you will get to experience as a guest. It's about more than food, you know. There's dancing and drinking and socializing. There's singing and books and artifacts. There are all kinds of things. People go to the Greek Festivals to enjoy all of these things listed above. The festival is meant for everyone to come and to enjoy the Greek Culture. While you’re there you can enjoy many different kinds of food. For example you can enjoy the tastes of goat meat frying on the grill, Athenian roasted chickens, moussaka, souvlaki, pastisio. All of the food is made fresh by members of these churches in prepare for the festivals. The members of the church want the younger generations to watch and observe the preparation so they can keep this tradition alive in the community. The Festivals are mostly held traditionally at Greek Churches. The festivals usually will go on for the duration of a weekend for example Friday to Sunday, this allows people to not miss this spectacular event .These churches not only raise money for their ministry but the cultural event provides an opportunity for the Pensacola Greeks to share their heritage, culture and faith with the local communities. The churches will often offer tours of their facility to show the community what they are all about. The churches will also donate some of their proceeds from the festivals to charities because of positive donations and from the amount of people that come out and enjoy the festivities. Browna48 (talk) 10:04, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Browna48 (talk) 02:19, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Greek festival


text:
Template talk:Unsolved

Image
That accretion disk picture (helpfully called "science.jpg") looks good enough on accretion disc, but why does it have to be on every other page that uses this template? Computational complexity theory, for example, has nothing to do with physics. Why not just use a big question mark? Too obvious? (And no, I don't have a big question mark picture. :-) JRM · Talk 18:45, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

Well, it's been a while. Now I do have a big question mark picture, and guess what? I'm going to put it on there, too. JRM · Talk 18:51, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I made the question mark image slightly smaller. I think it looks better that way. --David Göthberg 05:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Suggestion for a new question mark image: [[Image:Question_mark2.svg|39px]]. The current one looks somewhat unprofessional. Acdx 22:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Category application
Shouldn't noinclude be includeonly? Or was it put in noinclude because someone decided they didn't want all the articles that transclude this to be in this category? Whoops, forgot to sign... Alexrussell101 16:48, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, it seems it should be a "includeonly" tag. So I changed it to that while I was doing several other fixes to the template. However it seems to me it is wrong to use such "automagic" categorising for this template. Since it will add all articles that use this template to such categories and many of those articles only briefly mention a problem but use the template to link to the actual main article that describes the problem. I think only the main article for each problem should be in the category. For instance cryptography mentions one-way functions and uses this template. But I think only the one-way function should be in the Category:Unsolved problems in computer science. --David Göthberg 05:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

 * What if we put in another attribute, "automagically include", with values of "include" or "no"(default)? It would still encourage people to use these categories. --Homunq 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I just did that. Now somebody should go through and fix the pages which use this template for a passing mention by adding a third parameter. I just did cryptography as mentioned above.--Homunq 19:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I like your solution Homunq. I now took some time thinking about other ways to use such Wikimedia logic and about changing the order of the parameters and so on but your solution seems to be the simplest, clearest and most straightforward solution. Nice one! --David Göthberg 13:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

RFD
This template has been nominated for deletion on the grounds that it encourages naive wikipedians to try to answer the question, thus engaging in WP:OR. It looks as if the nomination will fail but this is a valid concern. However, putting a disclaimer about this would violate ... er... I can't find the guideline, but it's the one about not mentioning Wikipedia in articles in a way that would lose context in for instance a printed form. I think the right solution would be to have some "This is really hard and if you think you have an easy answer you're probably wrong. The first step in solving these problems is becoming familiar with why others have failed to." text on the page that you reach from the link. You could either put this text on all the "unsolved" pages, or as an alternate kludgey solution, create "Difficult unsolved" pages with just the disclaimer and a transclude of the "unsolved" pages. --Homunq 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "WARNING! The following text may incite original thoughts or a misplaced feeling of curiosity! Do not edit the article in a spirit of speculation! Problems in rear view mirror may be harder than they appear!"
 * WP:BEANS. Don't make provisions for things you think could happen. You are probably 1) overestimating the problem and 2) underestimating the effectiveness of anything we could say or do to help out the naive. You could try a redesign of the template, maybe a form where it's not stating the unsolved problem as a question, but disclaimers are right out. 82.92.119.11 23:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Why isn't this template categorized?
This template seems not belonging to any category. Does anyone know why? --Acepectif 16:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

deprecate
the template should be deprecated as unencyclopedic. "unsolved" problems will have to be treated and listed on a case-by-case basis, there is nothing like a global consensus on what is solved and what is unsolved. Is time travel "unsolved" or just fantasy? Is time travel "unsolved" in the same sense the land of Punt is "unsolved"? If things are "unsolved" simply say they are, no need for a template. dab (𒁳) 18:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello Dr. Bachmann. I would argue that while the encyclopedia naturally should contain only encyclopedic material, some of what we do is purely for educational purposes that may not quite qualify as encyclopedic. Consider for example some of the material on Commons. Open questions in the sciences is an interesting dimension that merits certain focus. When I created the template I was thinking about the physical sciences, which tends to confine its questions to the realistic. The examples you give point to a possible flaw in this argument, but AFAIK no one has misused this template for example on the time travel article precisely because in physics the line between what is fantasy and simply unsolved tends to be rather clear. How "unsolved" may be misused in other fields is something I have not given any thought to - you may be right in that there may be a problem of misuse. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 23:21, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

What is unique about these lists?
I'm not entirely clear on why these "unsolved problem" list articles are so different to other lists that they deserve their own pull-quote template, and I can't see this has been explained in the past TfDs. A lot of other lists could be boxed in the same way (every Hitchcock film could have a floating box of "List of Hitchcock cameo appearances: In scene X, Y minutes into the film...", every item on List of impossible puzzles could have a linked box repeating why it was impossible, etc), but the usual approach is to wikilink the list in prose, or include it as a see-also. Why are we making an exception for these dozen "unsolved problem" lists? Is this just a leftover design offshoot from the experimental early days of Wikipedia? --McGeddon (talk) 13:54, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * This is absolutely the problem with this template. It's should be a Navigation template, which is well-established mechanism in Wikipedia. - Crosbie 22:58, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Possible replacement
It's been suggested that the reason there's so much opposition to this template's deletion is that nothing has been proposed as a replacement. So, here's a proposed replacement. This sidebar is not only much more conventional in appearance than the current unsolved template, it's also much more useful for navigational purposes. Thoughts? DoctorKubla (talk) 20:27, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

 * (Bear in mind this is just a prototype; right now I'm more interested in discussing the concept than the execution.) DoctorKubla (talk) 20:29, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

 * Do you think it's useful to list all the various categories of unsolved problem? I thought your first draft was more effective - if I'm reading an article about one unsolved computing problem, I will be somewhat interested in other unsolved computing problems, but much less interested in unsolved biology or economic problems. --McGeddon (talk) 17:46, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

 * Well, the problem with creating a separate sidebar for each topic is that some of them (linguistics, statistics) would be really small. But yeah, thinking about it, I think I prefer the less cluttered version as well. I'll try separating them out again. DoctorKubla (talk) 06:21, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Two suggestions
1. The template documentation says that putting the template in an article automatically adds it to the relevant category. But this does not happen. Either the template should be changed to match the documentation, or vice versa.

2. The box is currently not sufficiently separated from the article text. I suggest to slightly change the style, e.g. by making the frame enclose the link together with the text. This will make the box look better. --Erel Segal (talk) 09:50, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Done.--Erel Segal (talk) 16:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

"Open problem" or "unsolved problem"
Back in November, User:Erel Segal changed the template title from "list of unsolved problems in X" to "open problem in X". Given that this template is used as a sidebar pull-quote in unmathematical articles such as glass and the card game Beggar-My-Neighbour, is "open" too much of a niche term to be using here? --McGeddon (talk) 09:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

 * I agree that "unsolved" seems like the more approachable term. --JBL (talk) 13:59, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

 * OK. Changed to "unsolved". --Erel Segal (talk) 16:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Add a "date" field so we can add a "as of [date]" at the bottom
If no "date" is specified, the template behaves unchanged like it does now. I think this would add valuable information, give context, and eliminate errors where currently solved problems are presented as unsolved.

104.228.101.152 (talk) 21:59, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

What is the point of this template?
This template seems to me to add nothing of value to any article. What exactly is the use of a big coloured block of text containing a sentence about something in the article? Additionally, on mobile displays, these boxes look absurd.

I see the template has been nominated for deletion five times. The last was five years ago. Perhaps time for a revisit. So if someone feels strongly about it, could they please explain exactly what would be the loss, if the template were removed from all the articles where it currently appears? 62.107.127.56 (talk) 19:30, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

 * In fact, the most recent deletion discussion was just over two months ago; you can view it here. The closer's correct summary statement was "clearly not going to be deleted." --JBL (talk) 02:01, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

 * Apparently, then, you like this template. Can you outline why? 62.107.127.56 (talk) 04:48, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

 * There are six past discussions that you can read. --JBL (talk) 14:04, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe update icon
I've tried another question mark icon in sandbox. You can see how it looks in testcases. —andrybak (talk) 10:04, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I find the present icon somewhat easier to identify as a question mark. Is there something you don't like about the present icon? --JBL (talk) 22:01, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The shadow throws me off a bit. How about icon Question, Web Fundamentals.svg: Special:Diff/890776538 ? —andrybak (talk) 13:42, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I like it -- it is clearer than the current one and your previous suggestion. --JBL (talk) 13:53, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ —andrybak (talk) 12:35, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Raw HTML template
The raw HTML structure of this template doesn't play nicely with other Wikipedia templates and side images. See the Proton article for two cases where the template gets stacked horizontally to the left of a navbox and an image, compressing the article text.

Changing it to a conventional sidebar template easily fixes that problem (diff, later reverted), at the cost of moving the question mark icon to the top, which User:David Eppstein dislikes the aesthetics of.

Is there a way to have a sidebar with the icon placed at the side, to cover all bases? There's probably also a way to hack the raw HTML here to display correctly when adjacent to other elements, but I assume it's preferable to be futureproof and standardise the code using higher level templates which are more likely to be maintained. Lord Belbury (talk) 09:50, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

 * There's probably also a way to hack the raw HTML here to display correctly when adjacent to other elements not hack, just add a missing piece of CSS for Unsolved to play nicely with surrounding right-aligned content: Special:Diff/1105703540. —andrybak (talk) 10:45, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Replicating the behaviour of an existing layout element piece by piece seems like a hack to me, and I say that with a great affection for hack solutions. sidebar has fields for classes which can applied to each section, so this should be replicable in a sidebar template, inheriting all past and future bug fixes.
 * The following template code almost works, I think it just needs some CSS changes to the padding to leave more space for the icon:
 * --Lord Belbury (talk) 11:10, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Lord Belbury, feel free to experiment in the sandbox: Template:Unsolved/sandbox. For more details, read WP:TESTCASES. —andrybak (talk) 12:22, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Lord Belbury, feel free to experiment in the sandbox: Template:Unsolved/sandbox. For more details, read WP:TESTCASES. —andrybak (talk) 12:22, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Your proposed template code above also makes the "Unsolved problem in X" in too big a font, so that it wraps, making the box bigger and more obtrusive than it needs to be. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:21, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Dark mode compatibility
This template is unreadable when using the new dark mode on the Vector 2022 skin. I filed a bug report at ; they told me that the problem is with this template's CSS. Could somebody who knows how to fix this do so? —LucasBrown 14:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I use Vector2022 and it appears completely legible to me in dark mode. The text and big question mark are white (on a black background). The box around the template is a little hard to see (darkish gray on black) but still present. The links are link-colors. What's the problem? Maybe a screenshot? Maybe you have some other personal css settings that are interfering? —David Eppstein (talk) 18:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

 * On my computer, running Ubuntu 22.04 and the Chrome and Brave browsers, the text is white (or nearly so), the big question mark is dark gray, and the background is light gray. The link is link-colored.  My only personal CSS is the line , which should have no effect on colors.  Wpdark.png —LucasBrown  19:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm running it in Firefox on OS X, but it looks almost the same to me in Chrome (the only difference is that the gray box around the template has a thinner line). For me, the background of the box is black in dark mode, and the question mark is white not black. I have a little personal css regarding font size and visibility of some objects but nothing that should affect this. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems that the reason for you not having that problem is that User:I Am Andumé fixed it shortly before you replied: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Unsolved/styles.css&action=history. —LucasBrown 01:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If so, then thanks, ! But I'm pretty sure I checked that it was working for me, looked at the history, and didn't see that yet. Regardless of whether the fix had anything to do with why it worked for me, a more general fix is a good thing. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! :) Andumé (talk) 06:59, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Template talk:Unsolved


text:
Christian Albrecht Bluhme

Christian Albrecht Bluhme (27 December 1794 – 6 November 1866) was a Danish lawyer and conservative politician who was the second Prime Minister of Denmark (first time from 1852 to 1853 with title of Prime Minister, second time from 1864 to 1865 with title of council president). He led the country during the latter part of the Second Schleswig War.

Biography
Bluhme was born in Copenhagen, Denmark as the son of a commander in the navy Hans Emilius Bluhme. Bluhme went to Herlufsholm School, where he became a legal candidate in 1816. In 1820 he became an auditor to the 2nd Jutland Regiment and two years after also the assessor in the Land Surveyor. In 1824, he went to the Governing Council in Trankebar. He returned to Denmark and was appointed in 1831 with the title of State Council to the town and county bailiff at Store Heddinge in Zealand. In 1838 he was appointed officer of the Diocese of Aalborg. He was called in 1843 to participate in the administration as Director of the General Chamber of Commerce and the College of Commerce, whose president he became in January 1848.

Personal life
In 1832, he married Rasmine Wandel (1813–1865), daughter of regimental surgeon in Copenhagen C.F. Wandel. He was the father of naval officer Hans Emil Bluhme (1833–1926).

title: Christian Albrecht Bluhme