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Talk:Irina Derevko

Since there isn't much info on her two sisters I was thinking it might be a better idea, rather than giving them their own page, to add that information here and make redirects that point to this page. Thoughts? K1Bond007 02:27, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that sounds good. Also, in the new TV Guide, it says Lena Olin is coming back. Have you heard of this? Thunderbrand 15:26, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * She was on some late show a while back and said that it might be possible she'd come back. The problem is she said she'd only like to do a couple of episodes. It was kind of implied that it'd be a flashback given her character is supposedly dead. K1Bond007 16:03, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * It says she will be in the season finale on May 25. Dunno if it will be a flashback...we will have to wait and see. Thunderbrand 22:44, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Split for Elena Derevko
STRONGLY AGREE with the suggestion to spin Elena off into a seperate article, with a paragraph summary to remain in Irina's "Sisters" section. Not that much on Katya, but Elena goes on. And on. And on. — ArkansasTraveler 20:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Also agree with splitting off Elena into her own page, and also support the idea of a fairly extensive cleanup/re-organization to make it very clear what information is canon and what is fanwank.69.129.200.176 07:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty new, what's the critical mass of opinion needed to go ahead and make this split?

At the risk of offending or ignoring critical mass, it is evident that more than half the length of this article for Irina Derevko actually contains content regarding Elena Derevko. It's time, so as has been advised, I'll be bold and split this off now. — ArkansasTraveler 16:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Birth Order
What information if any is known about the birth order of the sisters? It seems to be implied that Irina is the oldest, but not to be unkind Sonia Braga looks about ten years older than Lena Olin or Isabella Rosselini.69.129.200.176 07:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Elena
 * Irina
 * Yekaterina/ Katya RickyBlair668 (talk) 18:38, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Split for Katya Derevko
I've expanded the information on Katya Derevko and it looks to me like there's enough to justify splitting off the article. It still in fact needs some expanding regarding Katya's season 3 activities. That's all from memory and it's sketchy.69.129.200.176 08:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks good so far, but my opinion is that the article title should be Katya Derevko, since that is how most viewers have known the character. — ArkansasTraveler 17:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Thet's fine by me, I only suggested the full name because that's how it is in the article now.

Deleted Images
Why do people keep deleting Alias images? Elena Derevko's image has also been deleted on her article. It just makes these articles' qualities go down. Please put the images back! 205.188.116.71 19:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Absence of Irina
I removed this section because pretty much everything in it is covered elsewhere and a big chunk of it is factually inaccurate. If the contract issue is confirmed it might belong in the trivia section. Otto4711 16:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

necklace
There was an episode that implied Sydney receives coded messages from Irina through an object, I think a necklace or some other kind of jewellery, that Sydney has on her nightstand. What episode was it and was this ever followed up? --Mathew5000 02:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Irina had a pair of earrings that she said had sentimental value. She gave them to Sydney and at one point they blinked out a Morse code message "TRUTH TAKES TIME". It was in the season 2 ep "Truth Takes Time." Never followed up on. Otto4711 03:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Too bad they never followed this up; could have been an interesting development. --Mathew5000 10:51, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

1979?
What episode has dialog indicating that Irina went missing in 1979? As I recall, she "died" when Sydney was 6 and Sydney was born in 1975. Otto4711 22:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Dialogue in the S1 episode "Reckoning" confirms that the accident used to extract Irina was in 1981. Otto4711 22:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Information Box Should Not List Temporal Statuses such as "Deceased"
In the information box it lists relatives and their statuses which appear to be temporal. Since this is fiction it should exist in the permanent present so it is incorrect to list Jack Bristow as "deceased". Am I correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.33.14.44 (talk) 19:37, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Irina Derevko


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User:Valentinejoesmith

My name is Valentine Joe. I have a BS in History and am from Virginia, USA. I am also a alumni of Alpha Phi Omega.

Favorite Wikipedia Sentences

 * New favorite wikipedia sentence from George Sassoon. "He was noted for his prodigious linguistic ability, learning languages which included Serbo-Croat, Hebrew, Aramaic and Klingon. "
 * Another favorite: "He uses Sting almost exclusively, except on official documents. In a press conference, he once jokingly stated that even his children call him "Sting.""
 * "On one occasion, Stompanato stormed onto a movie set in the UK and pointed a gun at actor Sean Connery, her costar in Another Time, Another Place, only to have Connery take the gun from him, beat him, and force him from the movie set. Stompanato was deported for this offense, as handguns were (and are) illegal in the UK"

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Valentinejoesmith


text:
Island Command Greenland

Island Command Greenland (Grønlands Kommando), or simply "GLK", was a Level.II authority responsible directly to the Defence Command. It was, among other things, responsible for the military defense of Greenland, maritime and sovereignty maintenance and enforcement, as well as search and rescue. Personnel assigned to the Danish liaison office at Thule Air Base (FOTAB) as well as the Sirius Patrol (Slædepatruljen SIRIUS) were also a part of the Greenland Command. Island Command Greenland was amalgamated with Island Command Faroes to a Joint Arctic Command on 31 October 2012.

It also functioned as NATO's Island Commander Greenland, formerly part of Allied Command Atlantic. ACLANT became Allied Command Transformation in 2003, and since then it was not clear exactly how the command now fits into the NATO Military Command Structure.

History
The Danish military can trace its activities in Greenland back to the time of Hans Egede. From the late 18th century up to World War II, personnel from the Danish military contributed very actively to the exploration of Greenland, by land, sea and air.

After the Second World War fishing inspections and sea measuring began again and the first dedicated Greenland command was established, called the "Greenland Maritime Command", located at Nuuk (Godthåb). On August 1, 1951, it changed name to the "Island Command Greenland", while simultaneously moving from Nuuk to the Naval base at Kangilinnguit (Grønnedal, at that time it was only a Marine station), where it has been ever since.

Civilian duties
Under the stipulations of several international treaties, Denmark has agreed to keep and maintain a SAR (Search And Rescue) response organization in the Greenlandic area of responsibility. This organization was administered by the Greenland Command. The organization was divided into three sections, Land, Maritime, and Air, in order to simplify the command structure, which is absolutely vital on SAR operations.

The Greenland Command is authorized to request additional support from naval vessels, police cutters, the Royal Danish Air Force, civilian ships, aircraft from Air Greenland, and US or Icelandic SAR units based in Iceland if need be.

Currently there are about 150 total civilian and military employees employed by the command, from both Danish and Greenlandic descent.

Winter in Grønnedal

 * https://web.archive.org/web/20060402233425/http://forsvaret.dk/glk - official Greenland Command site (Danish)
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20070606222040/http://dpc.dk/sw5407.asp - Danish Polar Centre (English)

title: Island Command Greenland


text:
Talk:Mary Jane Kelly

Photo
I see we now have a photo of the mutilated corpse in the article... I'm not sure how wise that is. Obviously if someone wants to look at it they should be able to, but it's kind of over the top gruesome for a page someone would wander across. Any other thoughts? its not grusome but the bed dosn't look comfy to me2601:205:300:72D:A82E:3E8C:A05A:56A2 (talk) 17:32, 17 June 2019 (UTC) DreamGuy 02:28, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately it seems to be the only surviving photo of our subject. The other canonical victims have photos of them (both whem alive and after their death) provided in the external link. She is an exception. There are though a couple of drawings by contemporary press if you are suggesting a replacement. But would not people who visit this page be already interested in the murder? User:Dimadick

 * Yes, I am well aware that no photo of Mary while alive has been found. Actually, of the other victims, only Annie Chapman currently has a photo of her while she was still alive, which was only found a couple of years ago (and as it was only published recently the family is claiming copyright and restricting its use). None of the articles here have photos of the victims, alive (not that that's possible) or dead, so I don't see why this one would necessarily need one. An interest in murder does not necessarily mean they want to see a thoroughly mutilated corpse. We also have kids doing schoolwork. Reading about a crime for school or personal interest is a bit different from seeing it in all the gory details. DreamGuy 15:43, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC) Dreamguy its not in color and that would make it more grousume2601:205:300:72D:A82E:3E8C:A05A:56A2 (talk) 17:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

 * Hi. I have reverted the page back to the version with the crime scene photo. I do personally feel that it is encyclopedic and should be included on this page. I take on board your concerns regarding children seeing this image, but I am not sure that it is a strong enough argument to warrant removing this picture (there are other pictures that are equally distressing on Wikipedia, and also the article contains graphic descriptions of the crimes anyway). I feel that the image adds value in its portrayal of the true extent of the crime. Could I suggest that you might want to list the image on the Images for Deletion page, which would bring the debate to a wider audience? Cheers. TigerShark 22:37, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) TigerShark is right i beleve that it is a needed photo to help us know what she looked like along wit the crime discription2601:205:300:72D:A82E:3E8C:A05A:56A2 (talk) 17:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

 * I've moved the photo down to the "Murder" section, so that it isn't the first thing readers see. I also shrank it down to a thumbnail, which minimizes the gruesome nature. Interested readers can click on it for a closer view. -Willmcw 23:10, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC) Nice job it fits well there2601:205:300:72D:A82E:3E8C:A05A:56A2 (talk) 17:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

 * Thanks, -Willmcw for minimizing that photo. What freaks me out is that I think that is her face mutliated ... omg I think if that picture was enlarged, I might of been scarred worse.  I'm already feeling sick.  Stay strong, must stay strong.  68.102.37.191 14:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC) A previos victum had her face mutilated.

 * The picture is bloody nasty. The whole body is ripped apart, and the face has been slashed so you can't recognise the poor slut. Did that make you feel sick? Nasty eh? Gerrado 16:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

 * It's not that bad! I understand that you would be concerned about children stumbling across the photo, but I myself am only 14 and I feel that the picture isn't that bad. The only mutilation you can see if the cut in her neck and it isn't even that noticable. I didn't notice it until i read how she had been killed and looked at the photo for a second time. Any way if children would not be given this kind of subject if they were not of an older - more suitable age and if they are looking up Jack the Ripper for personal interest I seriously doubt they are going to be seriously disturbed by the photo. Maybe the photo is not necessary, but I see no need to remove it. Oh, and by the way I am not a some sick strange child that would not be disturbed by a real life murder scene. I am just your normal 14 year old girl doing a school assignment, who has a very weak stomach and thinks the entire Jack the Ripper case is digusting!

Removal of photo from the main page
I'm not for deleting it altogether. I just believe that it doesn't NEED to be visible on the main page. There are many other articles that have graphic photos that you have to click on a link to view. For example, see Uday Hussein and Qusay Hussein's bio. You can still look at their death photos but you must for click on the link do so. There's no encyclopedia reason to post graphic photos on main pages of articles. The only reason that I come up with is that people just want to shock and be provocative. Can you please explain to me why we all need to see a picture of a butchered and mutilated woman on the main page?Dude beacause it shows what people in those days saw and just imagaine what it whould look like in color Lmao2601:205:300:72D:A82E:3E8C:A05A:56A2 (talk) 17:29, 17 June 2019 (UTC) --Rambone (Talk) 15:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * OK. Let's talk about the criteria that we'll use to decide this. I have listed below the criteria that I believe Rambone is proposing, along with some comments.
 * Need: There is no encyclopedic reason to post the photo on the main page.
 * As the point of an encyclopedia is to provide information on a subject, and this is information on the subject - I think we need to start from a point of view that the information is relevant, unless we can find a reason that it is clearly not relevant. However, I would propose a couple of reasons why it is relevant:
 * The photograph is in itself notable (or at least well known)
 * The photograph demonstrates the multilation, which is a prominent aspect of the crime
 * Precedent: There are other articles which are bios of dead people, but which do not contain death photos
 * Precedent can be useful, but also has flaws:
 * Firstly how do we decide which article sets a precedent and which should follow it? For example, somebody arguing for an image to be added to another article could reference this article as a precedent.
 * Secondly, when applying a precedent we really need to compare like for like. For example, there was nothing about the state of the Uday Hussein's body that is relevant to his death. As mentioned above, the multilation of Mary Jane Kelly's body is a notable part of her death.
 * Along with the above, I would suggest that there is at least one other criteria, that of harm - in other words what harm does the inclusion of the photo cause, regardless of the previous two criteria? When discussing this, we should consider the discussion of censorship in WP:NOT.
 * I'd be interested to hear anybody's thoughts on the above. Cheers TigerShark 17:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I think you're missing the point. I don't want to delete the picture from the article, as you're suggesting I am.  BTW, I just made the edit to the article.  The picture is still available for viewing but it isn't visible on the main page.  The reason why it doesn't belong on the main page is because it's sick to look at.  If someone wants to look at it...they still can.  However, it doesn't NEED to be front-and-center on the main page.  --Rambone (Talk) 22:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Please don't just remove it, I have made some fairly extensive comments above. Please try to respond to each of them. With regard to it being "sick to look at", that is not a criteria for removal of images from Wikipedia. Please read the discussion of censorship in WP:NOT. Thanks TigerShark 22:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Dude, are you retarded? For the 100th time, I'm not removing the image...I'm simply opting for it not to be staring you in the face when you're trying to read the text.  Many other Wikipedia articles have implemented the same thing.  There is no purpose other than sheer shock value to put on the main page where you don't even have the option of not looking at it.  I'm editing it so that if you want to look at the picture, you can. For the rest of us who don't want to look at it, we don't have to.  Both parties are satisfied.  You still haven't explained to me why it is so damn important to have the picture visible on the mainpage?

 * About Uday Hussein's body not being relevant to his death....it was totally relevant because those photos were released simply for the purpose of having public look at them. --Rambone (Talk) 23:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Rambone, I think I have made my reasoning fairly clear above, and I would ask you to please respond to the individual items that I have raised. For example, you say that "many other Wikipedia articles have implemented the same thing" - but I have already commented in detail on the issue of precedent, and you have not directly addressed those comments. You also say that "there is no other purpose other than sheer shock value" - but again I have discussed reasons for including the image and also discussed how we should judge these reasons, again you have not addressed those comments.

 * Regarding Uday Hussein's body, I still don't think it fails into the same category - because the state of the body was not relevant. In the Kelly case it was very relevant. The article itself tries to describe the injuries - a picture surely helps. Thanks TigerShark 23:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

 * You're still missing my point...I'm not removing the image!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you speak english or are you just stupid?  I'm simply turining it into a link that someone can click on and VOILA!!!....you have your picture of a mutilated woman.  I'm not denying anybody access to that picture.  --Rambone (Talk) 23:20, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I fully understand what you are suggesting, I am just not yet in agreement with that course of action. Let's discuss why we should or shouldn't change it from an embedded picture to a link. Again, I have laid my thoughts out earlier and I would really like to hear your responses to the individual points that I raised. Thanks TigerShark 23:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Okay...first off...

''Need: There is no encyclopedic reason to post the photo on the main page. As the point of an encyclopedia is to provide information on a subject, and this is information on the subject - I think we need to start from a point of view that the information is relevant, unless we can find a reason that it is clearly not relevant. ''However, I would propose a couple of reasons why it is relevant: The photograph is in itself notable (or at least well known) ''The photograph demonstrates the multilation, which is a prominent aspect of the crime

I agree with you there. We're not at odds on this issue. The photograph IS notable because it demonstrates the mutilation. I believe it should be readily available to anybody who CHOOSES to look at it. Many people are probably just fine with reading the very explicit description that's already within the article. I believe that we should accomodate those people while at the same time giving people like you the option to view the picture. My solution would please both parties.

Now on to your other point....

Precedent: There are other articles which are bios of dead people, but which do not contain death photos Precedent can be useful, but also has flaws: Firstly how do we decide which article sets a precedent and which should follow it? For example, somebody arguing for an image to be added to another article could reference this article as a precedent. ''Secondly, when applying a precedent we really need to compare like for like. For example, there was nothing about the state of the Uday Hussein's body that is relevant to ''his death. As mentioned above, the multilation of Mary Jane Kelly's body is a notable part of her death.

I agree with your first point, however, I have to disagree with the second. The pictures of Uday Hussien and his brother are 100% relevant when it comes to the condition of their bodies. They both appear bloated and they look quite different than they did in life. Because of this, people who still feared they were alive believed that the corpses in the photos weren't them. I remember quite clearly that many people in the media kept showing the pictures to try to convince people that they were in fact dead. At first, this was met with some skepticism. Now, it's simply a fact.

However, this is a moot point. Your argument only applies to this aspect of the discussion if I was lobbying for the pictures to be removed altogether. I've made it quite clear that I don't want to do that. I apologize, though, for deleting the pic at first. I did this until I could think of a resolution that would please someone from my point of view and someone from yours.

By moving the picture to a link, like I did, and sticking the link right next to the description of the mutilation...if someone wants to look than all they have to do is click on a link. Simple as that. I'm not hindering people from looking at it and, at the end of the day, it is still considered part of the article.

Before I finish my statement, let me say this...there are several articles of beheading victims on Wikipedia that take the same steps that I want to implement on Mary Kelly's page. There are links in those articles to pictures of their beheaded corpses (which is the same argument you've made about Kelly's style of death being relevant). However, there are enough reasonable people on Wikipedia who don't think that their severed heads should be visible on the main page. In fact, someone tried posting it on Nick Berg's article and it was removed immediately and the overwhelming concensus was to place a link in the article without making it visible within the article. --Rambone (Talk) 23:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks Rambone. I have tried to comment on all of the issues that you raised above.

 * Firstly we seem to agree that the photo is encyclopedic but, as you say, the question is whether it should remain on the page or just be linked to. Linking certainly means that the photo is available, not question there. I do wonder however, whether it is quite as accessible as if it is actually included on the page. My thinking here is that a casual viewer of the article may not be as aware that the image is there (i.e. that a link to an image is not as noticeable as the image itself). Any thoughts on this?

 * On the issue of precedent, I still don't think that Uday Hussein and Nick Berg are a good comparison. The issue with the image of Kelly, is that it demonstrates a unique state that cannot be easily put across in words. In the case of Hussein and Berg, the pictures show little that cannot be conveyed simply in words (e.g. "bloated" or "decapitated"). However, as you say, this isn't really an important point, because we agree that the image is directly relevant to the article. I just think that we shouldn't rely on these as precedents to decide whether it should be directly included, because of the relevance of the information they convey. Thoughts?

 * You also touch upon the fact that many articles have linked photos of severed heads rather than directly included. I think that this comes down to a value judgement of benefit vs. harm. The issue of benefit comes down to relevance which, in turn, comes down to the issue of accessibility. I would suggest for example, that the severed heads are not very relevant (for the reasons I have mentioned earlier) and so there is no a strong need to ensure that they are easily accessible (back to the question of whether a link is as accessible as an inclusion).

 * With regard to harm I think that this is something that we have not really discussed. You have mentioned your thoughts on the image being "sick" but could you perhaps expand on the harm that you think the image might cause. It comparison to the images of the severed heads, and aside from the differing levels benefit mentioned above, I would say that there are some other issues to consider:

 * The image is in black and white and not of very great quality, so is perhaps not as graphic as some of the other images you mention
 * The image is very old, and very less likely to evoke an emotional response than recent images relating to current events (e.g. recent terrorism/wars/murder) which people may more closely identify with

 * Look forward to your thoughts. Cheers TigerShark 15:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

 * You still haven't articulated to me how moving it to a easily accessible link hinders the users ability to view the picture. If you look at one of my last edits of the page, I placed the link inside the text and right beside the description of her body.  If anybody overlooks it then they must be blind as a bat.  As far as arguing how much "harm" it would cause to look it the picture...I'm simply saying that it's quite distasteful to look at if you're not INTENDING to look at the picture.  The text description of her body is extremely graphic as is.  Many people will be satisified by just reading that.  However, I'm FOR keeping the picture in the article via hyperlink because some people will want to see it.  My main point is...why air on the side of shoving the picture in everybody's face on the main page???  --Rambone (Talk) 18:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I can't find the link. ^_^;;; Help!  Oh well, there's still Google Image for all of my pulped-up Mary Kelly needs.

Seriously though, I don't see the link. -Random Person

 * really, there should be a "CAUTION: this image shows a graphic murder" or something, kind of like Youtube's things where you have to click to confirm to continue for a graphic or flagged content". Her murder photos are horrible.  A Chaps 04:47, 11 September 2021 EST)

Stealthisusername 03:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Rambone. I'm an adult, and I found the picture extremely disturbing, especially since it just popped up as I scrolled - I wasn't expecting to see a photo of a woman with her face cut off. Why can't we just have a link to the picture for those who want to see it?

Personally, my empathetic tendencies upon seeing such images kicked in full force, and I was unable to actually read any fruther in the article once the picture came up. I managed to bear with it through the other articles pertaining to the victims and the crimes as a whole, albeit not easily. This one takes it up another level altogether. While I'm not saying we should cater to the lowest common denominator, I feel there should be some measure in place to still give access to such graphically grotesque things to those who desire it, while allowing those who have no desire for it or find it extremely distasteful to skip over it and still get the information from the article.

As to its necessity, is it really so imperative to post pictures of the deceased? Last I checked JFK's page doesn't have his mortuary photos, which I know for a fact have been posted online before. 71.198.127.97 22:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm 14. I usually have no problem with these sorts of photos, because I'm usually ready for them. But after scrolling through countless illustrations and interpretations of the ripper and his victims, I threw up when I saw the post mortem photo. I'm highly intrigued by the article, so i've had to block pictures from wikipedia. I'm seriously never like this, but something about this photo chills me. Consider the fact that people in my class look away when people are having stitches done in science videos. I'm not asking you to delete it by the rules, but I seriously think the photo would do better as a link with a warning. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlfieJMcKenzie (talk • contribs) 20:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

George Hutchinson
The article states that "Hutchinson's detailed description is considered dubious by many modern experts of the case because of the darkness of that night." I question the accuracy of this assertion. Philip Sugden frequently references Hutchinson's account as one of the most reliable of all witness testimonies during the case. Also, the night may have been dark, but if I remember correctly I believe I've read that Hutchinson saw Kelly and the man he believed to be the Ripper under at least one gas lamp. The fact that Hutchinson claimed to have given Kelly money in the past also explains why he would be interested enough to follow her and remember what her companion looked like. Hutchinson was probably one of the more reliable witnesses, certainly ahead of Mrs. Long and excepting maybe only Israel Schwartz. Furthermore, on the Casebook's dissertation page about witnesses, Inspector Abberline is quoted as having said, "I have interrogated [Hutchinson] this evening and I am of opinion his statement is true." 68.13.236.96 05:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Plot used in "From Hell"?!
I am removing the 'information' about the movie "From Hell" from this page, because:

1) It is a huge spoiler;

2) It is not true. The person who wrote the article seems to have made the conclusion that the other girl was killed instead of Mary Jane, but I haven't. This possibility is only mentioned in the movie and it's something Johnny Depp's character clings on as the only faint hope he has, but there's absolutely no proof of it given in the movie. Maybe the person who wrote the article has misunderstood the scene at the end of the movie, in which Mary Jane seems alive and well and seems to meet Depp's character in an idyllic-looking countryside; but this 'happyend' is immediately exposed as false, as the sequence turns out to have been only an opium-fueled fantasy of Depp's character. -Nightandday 12:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Uhhh... I don't think we really need to mention it either way in the article, but I think you misremember how the movie ends. The woman killed has a hair color completely different from Mary Kelly's, a point which Abberlie specifically notes and reacts to, and then tries to hide, so obviously was not Mary Kelly... and in the movie Abberline has visions of things that have really happened, etc., often assisted by opium, and it's one of those visions which sees Mary Kelly and knows she made it safe and sound. She is very, very much alive at the end of the movie. DreamGuy 13:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

OK then, that's how you see it. No, I don't misremember the ending. He had a good reason to wish for her to be alive, and I thought he was clutching at straws. I certainly did not have a feeling that he "knew he was safe and sound". In any case, it couldn't have been "obvious" that it wasn't Mary Jane Kelly. At best, you might say that the movie leaves it open for interpretation, certainly not that it is a FACT that someone else is killed instead of her. (Though I don't know what difference it should make anyway - she's chosen to be the love interest in the movie, so what? Someone was murdered and brutally mutilated in any case. Maybe I don't want to believe that the directors would use such a lame attempt at a so-called "happyend"... or maybe they just wanted to leave it open, so people who are into Hollywood-style "happyendings" would believe she was alive, and people who weren't would believe otherwise... ;) ) -Nightandday 06:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the idea of Mary Kelly being alive wasn't made up by the movie directors or screenwriters - it appears in the graphic novel that this movie was based on (although writer Alan Moore, on page 33 of the appendix, seems to indicate that he doesn't Really believe that it was anyone other than Mary who died that night). In the novel [SPOILERS!], Mary Kelly invites several prostitutes to doss at her place (as mentioned in 'Jack the Ripper, the Uncensored Facts' by Paul Begg). On the wednesday before the murder, Thomas 'Indian Harry' Bowyer witnesses Mary talking to a man whose identity matches that of prince Eddy (same source). Prince Eddy, guilt-stricken because he has caused the crimes to happen, informs Mary on which night she is going to be murdered (writer's invention). On the night of the murder, Mary and Joe visit the Horn 'O Plenty (mentioned in 'The Jack the Ripper A-Z' by Begg, Fido and Skinner), after which Mary takes at least two customers into her room (same source). After she leaves with her second customer, a woman enters the room, whom the reader at first assumes to be Mary returning a third time, now unaccompanied. Shortly after, 'Jack' enters the room and slaughters the dark-haired woman sleeping there (this is a black-and-white comic so most of the women have black hair). During the investigation, inspector Abberline talks to two people who insist that they've seen Mary on the morning after the murder (same source). In the final chapter, the murderer, locked away in St. Mary's Asylum in Islington (from 'Jack the Ripper : the Final Solution' by Stephen Knight), has a vision of Mary alive and well, living in Ireland (writer's invention obviously). So, what proof do we have that it was Mary Kelly's body that was found the next morning and not one of her 'sleepovers'? Did everybody just assume that it was hers, because it was found in her room? Mwvandersteen 19:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The idea of Kelly being alive first began with statements to Police by witnesses who insisted they had spoken to her on the morning her body was discovered. Detectives dismissed the statements as they conflicted with the time of death. One or two witnesses can be mistaken, but not the five or so witnesses who claimed to have seen Kelly. One theory is that Kelly was not working as a prostitute that night, but as a pimp for some other hooker. After finding the body Mary left town, she had nothing to gain from talking to the police and probably would have been thrown in prison. Johnwrd (talk) 01:42, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

"Don't blame me, blame the Jewes"
The Dr. Bond quote " There was also a note. It said, "Don't blame me, blame the Jewes." is highly dubious.. Source please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diddlesthecat (talk • contribs) 14:55, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Lead
The lead section of this article does not comport with WP:LEAD. What it is now is a summary of her looks. All of that material needs to move to an "Appearance" section. The lead is supposed to summarize the gist of the entire article. 14:41, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

MO
This is just insufficient and suggests bias in this and other Ripper articles --> "A small minority of modern authors consider it possible that Kelly was not a victim of the same killer as the other Whitechapel murders. At an assumed age of around 25, she was younger than the other canonical victims, all of whom were in their 40s. The mutilations inflicted on her were far more extensive than those on other victims, but she was also the only one killed in the privacy of a room instead of outdoors. Her murder was separated by five weeks from the previous killings".

Almost nothing connects Kelly to the other 4 Ripper victims. Her age, the fact she was killed indoors and the fact she was attacked the same night as one of the others. To overlook MO - for whatever reason - is to bias the article. That Kelly may well not have been killed by the Ripper ought to be in the lead or, at least, deserves a full paragraph and heading. Most modern Police forces would consider her to be have been killed by someone else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.10.151.170 (talk) 21:13, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm mystified by your claim that Kelly was attacked the same night as one of the other victims. She was not. Presumably you've confused her with one of the 'double event' victims, Elizabeth Stride or Catherine Eddowes. Akld guy (talk) 03:45, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The main thrust of the argument was flawed. Just someone with a strong but baseless opinion. DreamGuy (talk) 18:15, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Move box
The box labelled "The canonical five Jack the Ripper victims" needs to be moved from the "Murder" section to the top of the page to make the page layout consistent with the pages of the previous four victims. I think it used to be that way, but the entire "Murder" section got moved down at some stage. Akld guy (talk) 05:01, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
 * No response, so done as specified. Akld guy (talk) 23:38, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Research
Has there never been any attempt to check Irish birth records or Welsh census records about her background? Admittedly Mary Kelly could be a very common name in Ireland. PatGallacher (talk) 01:03, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Many, many attempts made. No person by that name who matches what was known about her has ever been found, though a few authors have tried to identify her as an individual who still appeared in census records after this person's death. (Like everything else in Ripperology, conspiracy theories followed.) The name and/or age she gave to others could have been false. DreamGuy (talk) 18:29, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Theories
About the fact that they waited for Warren, but didn't know he had resigned: it is not exact. They were waiting for the bloodhound, under the advice of the doctor Philips. http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_kelly.html Sir Charles Warren did resign the day before, but he would still keep his job until a replacement was found. Sir John Falstaff (talk) 01:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Including Mary Jane's Portrait picture?
Why's her portrait picture not on her wiki page, yet shows up when you google her wiki https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/0f/0c/47/0f0c477261e0d739b5fb91fcbf0d6863.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.154.41.2 (talk) 08:23, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Just so there's no confusion, that isn't her. It appears to have been used on the cover of a Kindle book about her, but is actually someone else. Lusanaherandraton (talk) 03:42, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

'Standards'
Sir Melville Macnaghten of the Metropolitan Police Force, who never saw her in the flesh, reported that she was known to have "considerable personal attractions" by the standards of the time.
 * Rather an odd comment. Presumably, he meant she was better-looking than most of the 'unfortunates' of Whitechapel, who were bottom of the heap. Valetude (talk) 17:44, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Duration.
How much time did he need to do what he has done to her body? --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * At least two hours. Now within the article.--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:39, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Hallie Rubenhold
For a discussion on Hallie Rubenhold's The Five: The Untold Lives of the Women Killed by Jack the Ripper see Talk:Whitechapel murders --John B123 (talk) 15:03, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Suspect description
I saw at one point in the article, it describes a stout ginger haired man carrying a can of beer, the important part is the latter, as on a separate article on beer cans, it said that "The first commercial beer available in cans began in 1935 in Richmond, Virginia." . This in in the US, and hadn't even arrived in Britain yet, so how could he be carrying a beer can? I would be grateful if somebody could provide me with a possible explanation for this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stedes6789 (talk • contribs) 15:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, aluminium beer cans are 20th-century, but before then beer was often decanted into the customer's own container that they would have brought with them to the vendor. It was not unusual for drinkers to take a jug, pot, tankard or old can to take-away after filling by the publican. DrKay (talk) 15:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Resting place
The other victims' coordinates were all incorrect. So as MJK had coordinates for the gate of St Patrick's Roman Catholic Cemetery, Leytonstone for consistency, I've adjusted these to be closer to where she is "reported" to be laid to rest & where her gravestone is.

 * Visual Ref from YouTube Struwwelpepper
 * The coordinates were on the web. Thanks for rectifying them.--Kieronoldham (talk) 19:41, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mary Jane Kelly


text:
User:Pkuchinski

Peter Kuchinski is a History major at Cal State Fullerton in Southern California who decided to become a Wikipedia user on April 13, 2005 and begin making contributions after having used it as reference tool for the last year or so. His main areas of concentration are the history of California and Latin America.

title: User:Pkuchinski


text:
Talk:Sicels

Untitled
I think anything about Sicel inscriptions, where they are found, on stones or on artifacts, and published comment, would enrich the context here. I didn't know there were Sicel inscriptions. --Wetman 02:30, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I found at least one credible reference to Sicel inscriptions here, which also shows an example (from Centuripe):[. I dare say that it looks Indo-European, but that's just a guess. It's no wonder the [[Sicel language]] is generally regarded as an Indo-European language. Alexander 007 04:24, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * There's a map at the Italian Wikipedia article that I'd have transposed here, if I were competent. The date of 1400 BC for the arrival of the Sicels is much too early, if their culture was an iron-using one. What does the best archaeology report on this? --Wetman 18:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

the sicels were NOT an italic people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.138.70.71 (talk) 11:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Sicani and Sicels
reverted edit User:Z as the matter is extremely disputed and not admitted outside albanian nationalist groups. Different academical sources admint a possible proto-illyrian origin for the Enotrians but not for Sicani and Sicels. see google (Enotri+Illyrians) and works by italian leading academician Giacomo Devoto Cunibertus (talk) 10:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Hi guys, accidently I've noticed your little discussion, so my few cents on this topic. There were demographic movements across the Adriatic, from the north to south and from the east to west, as domino effect caused by great Pannonian migrations toward Adriatic and south of the Balkan Peninsula (which included Doric migration too), around 1200 and 1100 BC. Some of contributors to these movements were the Messapians (to Messapia), Iapodes/Iapyges (to Iapygia), Liburnians to the Picenian coast and Sicules who were crossing the sea together with the Liburnians. Pliny the Elder (N.H. III, 14, 112) said: Iungetur hic sexta regio Umbriam complexa, agrumque Gallicum circa Ariminum. Ab Ancona Gallica ora incipit, Togatae Galliae cognomine. Siculi et Liburni plurima eius tractus tenuere, in primis Palmensum, Praetutianum, Adrianumque agrum, Emri eos expulere, hos Etruria, hanc Galli. – he gave historical order how did ethnic groups appear in Picenum and around. Admixture of different peoples there (newcomers + indigenes) produced a separate Picenum Culture. And Pliny informed about the Etruscan expansion which caused the Gallic invasion and Umbrian invasion into Picenum and departure of the Liburnians from their trade colonies in the Picenian Adriatic coast, but also (virtual or real) Siculian departure from there. Observe what this source says (The English Historical Review, Vol. 16,No. 63 (Jul., 1901), pp. 532-534) about supposition of the Ligurian origin of the Siculi - there is no any reason even to suppose something like that. In fact, before 1.200 BC Sicules were settled in modern Kaštela Bay. Cronologically: during Bronze Age - Kaštela Bay in modern day Croatia (they were P-I-E Proto-Illyrians, Illyrians were not P-I-E, they were I-E and they didn't exist at that moment yet); 1st half of the Iron Age - Picenum in Italy (one of groups within range of the Picenian Culture - probably assimilated by Italic people so speakers of some I-E Italic language in this period); 2nd half of the Iron Age - Sicily. I'm glad if this helps you. ;) Zenanarh (talk) 13:24, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation required
Pronunciation of the word Sicel is required. It's not clear if it is pronounced as SYSAL / SYKAL / SICKLE or something else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.0.15.171 (talk) 05:26, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

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Magna Graecia?
From the intro in Sicels the saying goes that "they rapidly fused into the culture of Magna Graecia". But from the Magna Graecia article: "The term Magna Graecia first appears in Polybius' Histories.", and then Polybius lived in the 2nd century BC.

From Sicels, first paragraph, a reference to Homer, via from our modern day Robert Lane Fox, establish an association between the homeric(?) glosses 'sicel' and 'sicani'. This associative gloss is extra glossy, for melting together these glosses, and for melting these glosses (/this gloss) together with the article topic. With the Homer-reference, Sicels are now precariously authenticated - meaning, implicit - at the 8th century BC. But the complexity of the homeric narrative process lurks in the background.

A fresh input (Sicels, second paragraph) from our modern day John Fine now takes over, to presuppose the Sicel habitation as a confluence of peoples of Illyrian stock and aboriginal mediterraneans. Now, the time frame is unfortunately lost, for when this happened, at the 12th century BC, the 8th century BC or the 3rd century BC, is not exactly clear.

By the following sentence, Thucydides is involved, also. According to the gist of the message, Thucydides' information somewhat relates to the scenario written by John Fine, and then the time frame must be somewhere between the 12th century BC (for example) and the 5th century BC, where Thucydides lived.

All in all, an academic miasma conjuring up memories of the traditional sport of tracking tribal migrations, cf. August Otto Rühle von Lilienstern (1831) Zur Geschichte der Pelasger und Etrusker, so wie der altgriechischen und altitaalischen Völkerstämme überhaupt (online at Bayerische Staatsbibliothek).

By the following inclusion of Diodorus Siculus, living in the 2nd century BC, this miasma is most emphatically emphasized. Diodorus' report of the established border between Sicani and Sicels sort of may refer to the vague time-period 12th century BC to 5th century BC, and, when written at the 1st century BC emphasize a fantastic degree of knowledge, at that ancient time - and up to at least 1831, in our era.

All in all, these two paragraphs concern the literate evidence. Although the report from John Fine may have included references to other types of evidence, they have not followed through to what has been written in the article. It is unknown.

Now the third paragraph in Sicels takes over, with a citation needed lead-in. After that small detail, there is finally some, very discrete, mention of newer types of evidence: archaeological and epigraphical. Basically, what opens up here, metaphorically, is an open-ended and truly aspiring subject theme, that comprise mentions of the myth of the Sea peoples - a quote from that article: "Following the creation of the concept in the nineteenth century, it became one of the most famous chapters of Egyptian history" - and a spurious note of "their arrival on the island between the thirteenth or eleventh century BCE" (quote from Sicels, third paragraph). It is a difficultly vague expression of time - either between the 13th century BC or between the 11th century. According to my personal subjective estimate, the epigraphic empiri - the name Shekelesh - must be a conjectural element in relation to the article topic. The epigraphy is concrete, the meaning of the inscription - every single little word - is not. And I strongly presume the archaeological evidence must likewise be deemed conjectural, in the specific context of detailing the history of the Sicels. Something occured in that 13th or 11th century BC, as manifest as to have been relatively conserved through 3 millenia, untill their discovery in our modern era. That this ancient material happening should be interpreted in a certain exact fashion is really an aspiring theme, but, stylistically speaking, the paragraph lead-in is not so out-of-place.

The trailing two-sentence paragraph refer to the Sicel necropolis of Pantalica, and that article verify the time focus, which is now solidly placed in the 2nd millenium BC. Is this time focus to be inferred for the preceding descriptions of Sicels - glimpsed from Polybius, from the homeric narrative, from Thucydides and Diodorus Siculus? Is this the time focus intended by our modern day John Fine?

If that be the case - and I interject to note that it is so, implicitly - then I worry that a possible 'point-of-view' or 'original research' is reflected. How to make the old and traditionalist literate evidence, including the biblical sources, come through and mesh up with the new kinds of empiri - sort of a production of empiri - is a polemical theme, and noteworthy. But I am not able to give any reference to this notion of notability. Perhaps it is me who is at fault. The vaguish fashion of time focus written into Sicels confirm my worry. I find further confirmation in the phrases found at the article describing the necropolis of Pantalica. The Italian point-of-view, as expressed here(italy1), or here(italy2), has its academic claim from the studies of Paolo Orsi, and establish an association between Greeks, Mycenaeans, the topographic location of Pantalica and the time frame 13th - 11th century BC. The unescoic point-of-view, as expressed here, cursorily surf over mentioning the so-called Anaktoron of Pantalica as Byzantine, belonging to a bewilderingly different time frame. But from this here superficial online research, the unescoic point-of-view has no basis in academic literature!?!

The clinch of the matter, as expressed in the article describing the necropolis of Pantalica, retell our ancient times - in Sicily - by the Italian point-of-view. The full association-list not only covers Greeks, Mycenaeans, Sicilian topography and the 13th to 11th century BC, but also manage to include Sicels. In the real Italian version, as following Orsi's studies, the Sicels must be understood as Mycenaean (see italy1, above). However, this association has somehow slipped away from the article describing the necropolis of Pantalica. The less dramatic Italian point-of-view (italy2) gloss over the association to the Mycenaeans (con i commercianti provenienti da Micenes) and assuredly and carefree also associate the Sicels with this archaeological testimony - the necropolis of Pantalica - and it is this less dramatic version that is mostly reflected in both of articles Sicels and Necropolis of Pantalica. The article text of Necropolis of Pantalica actually manage to mention both terms 'Mycenaean' and 'Byzantine', whereas the article text of Sicels just mentions 'Mycenaean'. The Mycenaeans conceptualization is modern, and one notorious problem in this context, see following paragraphs.

But the Mycenaean association is probably ok, and via this, also a Cretan association, and via this, also an Egyptian association. There is some logic, and as well empiri, to associating the Urnfield culture and early Hallstatt culture (/Hallstatt-period) with influx from the Italian coast, an influx of goods and then some. For the Iron Age, cf. . For earlier trading activities, no references; but likely goods are tin and glass pearls. These activities have raison, and as well empiri - including tin and glass, I'm sure - to associating the mercantile activities, by all means liberal, in Egypt with these European topographies. What else might have followed in the trail of goods is always a good question, but some trivial form of good old-fashioned marxian or liberal accumulation is likely.

The best example hereof, empirically speaking, comes from the Cretan palace period, with all the time-typical marks of a Mesopotamian-Egyptian social model. It is just that while there is a whole iceberg of fiscal networks below (actually, around) the great cities of Egypt and Mesopotamia, Cretan palaces, on the other hand, and even more their Mycenaean counterparts, are less integrated, in chronography and in geography. The fascinating palace milieu, with goods and gold, architecture and writing, is somehow happening, just so. The early palaces in Crete belong to the beginnings of the 2nd millenium BC.

One of the early escavators, and prominent for normalizing the relative Minoan chronology, Arthur Evans, and a contemporary to Orsi, has drawn attention to similar types of sepulture constructions, in Crete and in the Italian region, dating this material phenomenon to the late middle of the 2nd millenium BC. ( cf. ) A much less known personae, Fimmen, also contemporary with Orsi and Evans, seek to profile certain ceramic artefacts, namely Bügelkannen, that as well show stylistic likeness across a wider region; Italy, Greece, the Aegean islands and Egypt.

Even though there is, or must be, a sort of beginning, somewhere in the early 2nd millenium, it is still only when describing ancient Crete that this history - beginning - can be profiled. A beginning of assimilation.

It is also on this note of assimilation that the modern research into the adaptive and assimilating nature of the early middle ages is of interest. The medievalist concern in this topic has especially been focused on the literate conceptualisations of ethnic appelations. Basically, what this means in a mediterranean context in the bronze age, is that mythologies may hold more true, especially the old ones. The concept-scenario, kind of archetypical, of the prince and his hirdsmen, is not only reflected in the Aenead (Vergil, 2nd century BC) but also in the modern-academic coinage ethnogenese (Wenskus, ca. 1960) and more thought-provoking in the Han-archives, somewhere in the first half of the 1st millenium, our era, describing the north-eurasian warrior-groups. Perhaps there is also some likenes to the drama in the Odysee. And so it is, that the liberal, dislodged, fractured, disrupted settlement patterns of glossy habitats - or just, the Minoan and Mycenaean palace settlements - must translate to this scheme of serious freetrading, which does in history and Wirkungsgeschichte always include a certain measure of Gewalttätigkeit. Freetraders are natural founders, and the Americas could be the prior example - speaking from an empirical perspective. The geography of the mediterranean coastal regions - the Adriatic and Aegean included - facilitate those opportune settlements. In the archaic and classic age this settlement pattern has become a structural pattern in the Greek societas - most aptly phrased, the Greek-language environment, although seemingly predated by the Levantine approach, the punic settlers. A search for ethnicity is a blind alley, leading to a wall of self-reflecting questioning of how to define ethnos, where, when and why. The identity is really very willfull although presumably the progressing conglomerated atmosphere, beginning at the dark ages prior to both Greek archaics and Etruscan thrift, furthers a certain stasis.

Describing the Sicels must be a literate subject, and it should be discernible, in explicit form, from the modern empiri-products, summarily subsumed as archaelogical data. A synthesis betwixt the two would be optimal, but the synthesis should not be the ideal and motive to justify speculation. The reference in the intro to Magna Graecia might be one example of speculative content, imprecise time allocation and, as root cause, the disproportionate emphasis on ethnos - ie. is Magna Graecia really Greek, or just a Roman retrospective of a distant age, and how to weigh in the linguistic estimate of Siculan language as italic?

Just to show off the enlightening perspective obtained by reading oldish material - first decade of 20th century - in this present day time horizon, these Sea peoples could well be the very same folks that appear in todays literature as victims of the Sea People - excepting the Egyptians. For it is the Egyptians that hold up against some seafaring rallies, and just after this happens, some small centuries after the Hyksos regime has fallen, there is to be noted an Egyptian presence, by way of some elite artefacts, the Tuthmosis-scarabs found distributed in the Mycene, Adriatic and Cretan regions - roughly ca. the 12th century BC. Cf. especially. It is quite natural and logical to 'confound' or merge the notion of Sea peoples with the sea-faring folks of the 2nd millenium, already known as Mycenaeans and Cretans. And, refreshingly also the Sicels, when the association to the 'Shekelesh' appelative is thought to hold true. But it is not a question of ethnos (should not be), but instead one of searching for structural patterns. Sechinsic (talk) 21:01, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sicels


text: User talk:68.88.234.176

title: User talk:68.88.234.176


text:
Talk:Niitsuki Station

Importance
I wrote this thing, and I'm worried that it fails to meet point #6 of Importance. I mean, it's in the middle of a bunch of fields, no one works at it, barely anyone uses it, and has noting notable nearby (the prefectual border and highway don't really count). Should a ghost station like this exist at all? I remember reading on a policy page that 'all train stations are notable', but...well, can that really be said? William McDuff 02:31, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Niitsuki Station


text:
User talk:Crickett

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

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Image:Seismogram.gif
Please add some license or the image has to be deleted. --Saperaud 12:42, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Campus image20.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Campus image20.jpg. I notice the image page currently doesn't specify who created the image, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created the image yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the image on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the image yourself then you should also specify where you found it, ie in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the image also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture then you can use to release it under the GFDL. If you can claim fair use use .)  See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other images, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thanks so much. Thue | talk 10:54, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Crickett


text:
Talk:The Burial of the Dead

Votes for deletion
This page was recently nominated for deletion, and the consensus decision was to keep it. The deletion debate is archived here. ugen 64 02:32, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

After transwiki
After this article is moved to Wikisource, please redirect to The Waste Land. ugen 64 02:32, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Burial of the Dead


text: User:IanWilliamson

title: User:IanWilliamson


text:
Politics of Catalonia

The politics of Catalonia takes place within the framework of its Statute of Autonomy, which grants a degree of self-government to Catalonia and establish it as an autonomous community of Spain with the status of a nationality, operating as a parliamentary democracy. The Generalitat de Catalunya is the Catalan institution of self-government, which includes the Parliament of Catalonia, the President and the Executive Council. The Parliament of Catalonia is one of the oldest in the world.

Catalan politics also influence some aspects of Spanish politics due to the presence of Catalan nationalist parties in the Spanish Parliament, whose political support is often required by any given winner of the Spanish general elections to form a majority. The currently extinct Convergence and Union party had been described as being "long the region's dominant political party". Catalan politics is also noted, to a lesser extent, for the influence exerted by the Socialists' Party of Catalonia on its sister major party, the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE). Recently, the constitutional status of Catalonia was subject to a dispute between the Government of Spain, which view it as an autonomous community within the Kingdom of Spain and the unilaterally declared Catalan Republic, which saw itself as an independent sovereign state.

19th and 20th centuries
During the 19th and 20th centuries, Catalonia was one of the main centres of Spanish industrialisation. During these years, the struggle between the Barcelona conservative industrial bourgeoisie and the working class dominated Catalan politics, as it did elsewhere in Europe during the industrialisation process. In Catalonia, this situation was nuanced by the fact that immigrants from the rest of Spain were an increasing portion of the workers, since the local workforce was not large enough to cover the demands of a rising economy.

Catalan nationalist and federalist movements arose in the nineteenth century, and when the Second Republic was declared in 1931, Catalonia became an autonomous region. Following the fall of the Second Republic after the Spanish Civil War of 1936–39, the dictatorship of General Francisco Franco annulled Catalonia's autonomy statute and prohibited any public usage, official promotion or recognition of the Catalan language. Its private everyday use was never officially proscribed by law but diminished because of the political situation, mostly in the major urban nuclei. During the last decade of Franco's rule, there was a resurgence of nationalist sentiment in Catalonia and other 'historic' regions of Spain, such as the Basque Country.

"Dual vote" and current affairs
Following Franco's death in 1975 and the restoration of democracy by 1978, Catalonia regained its autonomous status and became one of the autonomous communities within Spain. The Catalan conservative nationalist leader Jordi Pujol came to power in the first regional elections in 1980 and his two-party coalition, Convergence and Unity (CiU), won successive regional elections by absolute majority for 19 years and ruled the autonomous government for 23 consecutive years.

CiU's hegemony occurred in spite of the major cities (including Barcelona's) having been controlled by its main rival party, PSC. It was also in spite of what has been defined as the "dual vote". This refers to the fact that election results in Catalonia consistently vary depending on the election type. Thus, elections for the Catalan regional Parliament have historically been won by the conservative nationalist CiU (this trend persists, even though CiU lost the absolute majority in recent times). However, the social democrat non-nationalist PSC-PSOE has been, and continues to be, the winner of elections for the Spanish Parliament. This has been explained because of the abstention in the regional elections of those voters less concerned with identity questions, and the correspondent high turn out amongst more locally motivated nationalist voters. In addition to this, studies have shown that a number of voters consciously swing their votes from CiU to PSOE, depending on the type of election

Following the 1996 national elections in Spain, Pujol surprised many by lending CiU's support in the Cortes Generales to the minority government of the People's Party (Partido Popular, PP). After having served more than 15 years ruling the autonomous community of Catalonia led by Jordi Pujol, CiU had become eroded while the Socialists' Party of Catalonia (PSC-PSOE), a sister-party of Spain's main social democrat party (Spanish Socialist Workers' Party, PSOE), began to enjoy electoral popularity also in the Catalan election context. This trend culminated in the 2003 election which saw CiU ousted from the government for the first time in 20 years by means of a tripartite left-wing coalition.

When it comes to the nationalist question, one of the 'fault-lines' in contemporary Catalan politics arises from the fact that Barcelona, with its strong metropolitan economy, continues to attract migrants from all over the world. This contemporary layer of immigration is prone to speak Spanish over Catalan and adds to second and third generation Catalans whose families arrived from other parts of Spain during the 20th century in order to cover the needs of industrial workers which the Catalan economy demanded to prosper; amongst the latter, some have become proficient in Catalan, others have not.

On the other side, Catalan remains the predominant language in middle-class and upper-class urban areas, as well as in the region's rural and small cities. All in all, Spanish remains the language spoken by a significant portion of Catalans, particularly in working-class areas. For Catalan nationalists this is perceived, in the worst case, as a threat, and in the best case, as a challenge to be confronted, because Catalan nationalism is centered on language rather than ethnicity.

In any case, Catalan has undoubtedly experienced a spectacular revival since the death of Franco; it has become the language of the autonomous government and enjoys a prominence and widespread use. However, the desire of Catalan nationalists to make the use of Catalan language universal is continually thwarted by the dominance of Spanish speakers in some places.

Terra Lliure
Terra Lliure ("Free Land" or "Free Fatherland"), which was defined as a terrorist group by the United States and the European Union, was founded in 1978 as the armed organisation of the Catalan Movement of National Liberation (MCAN), a wide movement seeking independence and socialism for Catalonia and the whole Catalan speaking domain, including Valencia, the Balearic Islands and Northern Catalonia (in Southern France) - what is also known as the Catalan Countries.

It began an armed campaign, consisting of hundreds of bombings which was brought to an end by harsh police operations in 1992. Four of its members were killed in action and it accidentally caused the death of an innocent victim in one of its bombings. Organisations such as the Movement in Defense of the Fatherland (MDT) provided political support, with mass demonstrations and representatives in some town councils, but during the 1990s the political wing too lost support, resulting in several years of political weakness, which gave way to a revival towards the end of the century.

Despite its similarities, the activities of Terra Lliure and the MCAN have not reached the strength and notoriety of ETA and the basque pro-independence movement.

During the 21st century
At the 2003 regional elections (for which Pujol did not run) CiU could not renew its absolute majority and PSC's Pasqual Maragall became President of the Generalitat by means of a left-wing tripartite coalition. Maragall's socialists kept being the main opposition party, but actually lost seats: the bigger winners were the independentist Republican Left of Catalonia (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya (ERC), and the ecosocialists. Since CiU did not win an absolute majority, the combined forces of all three left parties allowed the change in government. While PSC maintained the post of President of the Generalitat (Maragall), ERC nominated the First Minister (Conseller Primer) — Josep-Lluís Carod-Rovira and, later on, Josep Bargalló.

This first tripartite rule became an uneasy coalition due to tensions between the PSC and ERC and internal tensions between PSC and PSOE as well. The evidence of such an uneasy relationship was the controversial forging of the amendment to the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia.

The 2006 regional election saw Convergència i Unió (CiU) increasing its numbers, while both the PSC and ERC lost seats, but still was not enough of an increase for CiU to block the formation of a second left-wing tripartite coalition (PSC+ERC+ICV), again led by PSC's, this time being José Montilla the President of the Generalitat. Also this election saw a newly created party Ciutadans - Partido de la Ciudadanía entering the regional Parliament.

The new century has also seen a revival of the Esquerra Independentista (pro-independence left), which has again regained some of its strength after the end of Terra Lliure in 1995. Its Popular Unity Candidacy have done well in the municipal elections of 2007, gaining over 20 town council members.

The amendment to the Statute and current political issues
Unlike the autonomous communities of Navarre and the Basque Country, Catalonia lacks its own tax system; thus the economic financing of the regional administration depends almost entirely on funds raised by national-government taxation and budgeted to Catalonia. This became a mainstream issue at the time of amending the Catalan Statute of Autonomy. From an economic perspective, the regional government aims to achieve a high degree of fiscal autonomy (based on the argument that the region pays in more to the national Spanish coffers than it receives, thus overlooking the "solidarity between regions" enshrined by the Spanish Constitution of 1978).

There was a significant political controversy as a result of the Catalan parliament's proposed draft of a replacement Autonomy Statute which sought to define Catalonia as a 'nation'. Article 2 of the 1978 Spanish Constitution states that the constitution "is based in the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation (Nación)" while also referring to the "right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions (nacionalidades y regiones)". These nationalities and regions are left unnamed in the Constitution. The controversy centered on whether referring to any Autonomous Community of Spain as a "nation" may go against Article 2 and whether the Catalan claim to be a nación rather than a nacionalidad had separatist overtones subversive of the "indissoluble unity" of Spain. There was also a high degree of controversy about the control of all taxes, and a parallel judicial system. In the end, and after much controversy, a watered-down version was passed, although the political debate lingers on.

The independence issue
An essential aspect of Catalonian politics is the issue of independence or self-determination. The law does not recognize a "right of self-determination" in spite of a politically relevant pro independence movement in Catalonia. According to the governmental Sociology Studies Center (CIS) CIS official poll in 2001 there were 33.9% of Catalans in favor of an independent Catalonia, 48.1% against, 13.3 undecided and 2.8% did not answer. CIS has not repeated this poll to date.

Conversely, factors such as public indifference at the time of voting the amendment of the Statute of Autonomy (see "dual vote" section above) starkly contrasted with the harsh political controversy behind its amendment. Besides, the advent in the 2006 regional elections of a new party whose main ideology is countering Catalan nationalism, Ciutadans - Partido de la Ciudadanía, all make the independence issue a far from univocal question.

In 2007, a poll indicated that, when asked about the relationship between Catalonia and Spain, 59.5% of respondents thought that Catalonia should be an autonomous community within Spain (the current situation), 17.5% considered that Catalonia should be a state within a federal state and only 13.5% believed that Catalonia should be an independent state separate from Spain. The rest of respondents gave other answers, although only a small minority, 5.5%, stated that Catalonia should be a region within Spain, which would mean less self-government.

Another official poll by Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió (CEO) in 2012 determined that 51% of Catalans would vote for an independent Catalonia if there was a referendum, 21.1% would vote against and another 21.1% would not vote.

Parties

 * ERC — Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya (Republican Left of Catalonia), social-democratic, pro-independence
 * Junts — Junts per Catalunya (Together for Catalonia), liberal, pro-independence
 * PSC-PSOE — Partit dels Socialistes de Catalunya (Socialists' Party of Catalonia), social-democratic
 * Vox, far-right, Spanish nationalism
 * CUP — Candidatura d'Unitat Popular (Popular Unity Candidates), left-wing to far-left, pro-independence
 * ECP — En Comú Podem (In Common We Can), left-wing, eco-socialist
 * Ciutadans — Partido de la Ciudadanía (Citizens – Party of the Citizenry), liberal
 * PP — Partit Popular (People's Party), conservative

Summary of votes and seats
The latest parliamentary elections took place in February 2021

title: Politics of Catalonia


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title: Category:Law school stubs


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User talk:Beatlegirl1235

Latter-Day Saint Prophets

This is a complete list on the prophets of The Church of Jusus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

1. Joseph Smith Jr. 2.  Brigham Young 3. John Taylor 4. Wilford Woodruff 5. Lorenzo Snow 6. Joseph F. Smith 7. Heber J. Grant 8. George Albert Smith 9. David O. McKay 10. Joseph Fielding Smith 11. Harold B. Lee 12. Spencer W. Kimball 13. Ezra Taft Benson 14. Howard W. Hunter 15. Gordon B. Hinckley

title: User talk:Beatlegirl1235


text: User talk:210.177.248.66

title: User talk:210.177.248.66


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title: User talk:69.148.82.234


text:
Innocenti Mini

The Innocenti Mini is an automobile introduced by Innocenti in 1974. The vehicle was a rebodied, three-door hatchback version of the Mini, styled by Bertone. A five-door prototype was developed around 1980, but was never put into production. After having been sold to De Tomaso in 1976, the Innocenti Mini ended up being powered by Daihatsu-sourced three-cylinder engines and continued in production in incrementally updated forms until 1993.

Mini assembly from CKD (1965 to 1975)
Prior to developing the Mini 90 / 120 hatchback variants of the Mini, Innocenti undertook assembly of the original Mini design using CKD kits. Introduced in November 1965 as the Innocenti Mini 850, later versions included the 1001, the Cooper, the Cooper 1300 and the Mini T, the latter being an estate car and the only non-saloon variant produced. Assembly ceased in early 1975. Only the very earliest Minis were built using CKD kits. Most of the production was built using locally sourced shells and componentry. The Innocenti Mini shells differ in many ways from contemporary English built ones.

British Leyland years
Innocenti, under the ownership of the British Leyland Motor Corporation (BLMC) developed rebodied versions of the Mini, known as the Innocenti Mini 90L and 120L, which were released at the Turin Show in 1974. The new, Bertone-styled Mini was originally launched in two versions, the 90L and 120L – the former having the 998 cc A-series engine putting out 43 bhp, and the latter the 1275 cc unit, with an extra 20 bhp on tap. These outputs were later uprated to 49 bhp and 65 bhp respectively. As for the English-built Mini, the Innocenti received the "dry" rubber cone suspension, which provided excellent handling but at the cost of a very bumpy ride. All Leyland-engined Innocentis received a four-speed manual transmission.

At one point there were even plans for the Bertone-designed Mini to replace the original English Mini, but these came to nothing. Within a year of the car's launch, BLMC went bankrupt and in May 1976 Innocenti was sold to De Tomaso and GEPI. BL retained a 5% stake. The new owners renamed the company Nuova Innocenti ("New Innocenti") and continued to build the car without any real change.

Innocenti's Mini version was generally nicely equipped and had a better finish than their English brethren, leading to higher sales and a better reputation in many continental European markets (aside from Italy), such as France. The largest improvement was the addition of a rear hatch, allowing for improved access to the (still tiny) luggage compartment. The drag resistance was also marginally lower than that of the original Mini, 0.41 Cd rather than 0.42.

De Tomaso
At the 1976 Turin Auto Show the sporting Innocenti Mini de Tomaso was first shown. It entered series production in early 1977 and featured moulded plastic bumpers rather than the filigrane, chromed units used for the 90/120. There were also integral foglights, a bonnet scoop, and wheelarch extensions to accommodate the alloy wheels which completed the sporting appearance. Power at introduction was 71 bhp, but this crept up to 74 bhp in 1978.

Mille
In 1980, the facelifted and better equipped Mini Mille made its appearance. The Mille (1000) replaced the larger-engined 120 in most markets, and featured moulded plastic bumpers, headlights which sloped backwards, and redesigned taillights. Overall length increased by a couple of inches (5 cm). There was also a "90 LS II" version introduced for 1981, and the "90 SL" for the 1982 model year. By 1982, however, Alessandro de Tomaso's deal with BL had ended. For various reasons, politico-industrial as well as due to British Leyland's reluctance to provide engines to what was a competitor in many continental markets, the decision to thoroughly reengineer the Innocenti Mini was reached. After a lot of testing, the car was finally adapted to take a three-cylinder Daihatsu engine and various other mechanical parts. Because of Daihatsu's minuscule European presence, selling engines to Innocenti would have a minimal negative impact on their own sales, instead offering a door to many European markets that they had yet to reach. Thanks to Alfa Romeo's Arna deal with Nissan a few years earlier, the Italian political resistance against Japanese companies had been lessened and DeTomaso encountered no political difficulties.

Minitre
In April 1982, at the same time as the engines were changed for Daihatsu units, the Mini's original rubber suspension was changed to a more conventional (and comfortable) independently developed layout with MacPherson struts in the front and an independent, rear suspension with lower wishbones and a transverse single-leaf spring which also acted as a stabilizer. To indicate the new engines, the cars were renamed Innocenti Tre Cilindri, or simply "Tre" (three). The new engines and suspension carried with them a weight penalty of about 55 kg. The new Innocentis were nearly indistinguishable from their predecessors, the external changes being limited to badging and a chin spoiler. In January 1984, along with a gentle facelift, they were renamed Minitre (sometimes written "Mini 3"). Most of the new parts came straight from the Daihatsu Charade. European exports, which had hitherto been managed by local British Leyland affiliates, were either halted or generally slowed down. For the first year or two, Minitres were limited to exporting to France, Belgium, and Switzerland. In 1983, the German Daihatsu importer Walter Hagen took over sales there, after a hiatus of over a year. The old Leyland-engined versions continued to be sold until stocks ran out. In spite of the new model, production dropped steadily: from 23,187 in 1981 to 21,646 the next year to 13,688 in 1983, the first year in which all cars were Daihatsu-engined. During 1984, sales shot up again as the car had regained its credibility.

Aside from the sporting turbocharged version, the Minitre was originally only available with a carburetted 52 PS petrol engine, in three different levels of trim: S, SL, and SE. While usually fitted with a five-speed manual transmission rather than the four-speed unit used in the earlier four-cylinder cars, a two-speed semiautomatic also became available in July 1984, sold as the "Minimatic". This was the same unit as the one marketed as the "Daimatic" by Daihatsu themselves. The Matic's gearbox has the same dimensions as does the manual transmission, and is fitted with a torque converter and a planetary gear train with two gear ratios which are selected by a traditional, floor-mounted gear lever.

While the Daihatsu powertrains were considerably more expensive than the English units, Alejandro DeTomaso stated that this was more than paid for by lowered warranty claims. In 1984 he said that warranty repairs were down by 70% when Japanese-engined Minis were compared with the BL-engined ones. His biggest problem was that his service network had become overstaffed as a result of the higher quality engines. This surfeit of servicing staff may have also been a result of steadily declining production numbers (down from the forty-thousands in the late seventies to the mid-teens by 1984/1985), something which De Tomaso tried to ameliorate by offering a more luxurious and customisable product than did their main competitor Fiat.

The three-cylinder (and some two-cylinder versions as well) continued in production until 1993, and this range was also available with a 37 PS diesel version of the 1-litre engine. The diesel looked the same, inside and out, as did the regular Minitre. At the time of introduction (April 1984), this engine was not only the smallest passenger car diesel in the world, but also had the highest specific output of any naturally aspirated diesel engine in series production; it thus made for a surprisingly spirited performer. Introduced as part of an effort to bring Innocenti production above the threshold of profitability, around 20,000 cars annually, the Minidiesel sold very well. The diesel took thirty percent of the overall production with nearly no negative effect on sales of the petrol versions, a considerably bigger share than the expected twenty percent. It was helped by a lack of real competitors: by 1988 it still only had to compete with the 1.3 litre Fiat Uno and Panda diesels, as well as the Volkswagen Polo diesel, all of which were in a higher tax bracket and had higher fuel consumption.

990
In Turin 1986, the longer 990 was presented. This version had a wheelbase which was extended by 160 mm and was available with either the naturally aspirated petrol or diesel 1 L engines. In addition to a more useful back seat, the 990 also had a more sloped windscreen for somewhat better aerodynamics. Classified as a five-seater, even two adults would still find the rear seat uncomfortable. A well balanced design, the longer wheelbase version can be hard to identify, if not for the missing pillar in the glass of the door, and the forward placement of the mirrors. The luggage space also increased somewhat, with 295 L rather than 280 L.

The 990 also received bigger bumpers and a new grille with horizontal bars and the Innocenti logo, a stylised "i". The rear number plate was moved up to between the rear lights. The 990's rear seat folded and was divided down the middle.

The 990 was an adaptation of a 1982 concept executed by the Embo carrozzeria, using the longer chassis of the Mini Traveller. Excepting the turbo, the shorter 1-litre versions were taken out of production in July 1987. The 990 was available as the SL, and as a better-equipped SE version.

There was also a "Minitre Commerciale", continuing the earlier Mini 90 Commerciale two-seater van. When the longer 990 arrived there was also a 990 C (for "Commerciale") and also a 990 diesel C. In France, the earlier short wheelbase diesel van was briefly available as the "Minidiesel Société". As for the usual versions, the Commerciale was somewhat hampered by its small aperture for the luggage area - especially when compared to more modern competitors.

650/500
A "Minidue" had been rumoured for some time, but most were expecting the fitment of a Moto Guzzi 650 cc V-twin engine, since Moto Guzzi was another company owned by de Tomaso at the time. A few prototypes were even built with this engine, but the amount of work it would have taken to make the motorcycle unit suitable for a car made the project unfeasible. Instead, Innocenti chose to stick to Daihatsu engines. First shown at the Turin Auto Show in November 1984, the two-cylinder, short-stroke 617 cc "Mini 650" was also available as a better equipped "SE" model. The 650 received a silver-painted asymmetric grille, while the SE model had model-specific hubcaps divided into threes. While not very powerful at 31 PS, the two-cylinder engine was surprisingly smooth-running thanks to the use of twin balance shafts. The dashboard was also unique to the 650 and was quite spartan: for instance, it had no door to the glove compartment. In the rear, the reflective bar between the taillights was replaced by a black plastic unit.

The "650" was succeeded by the three-cylinder 550 cc (660 cc from late 1990) "Mini 500", which went on sale in January 1988. These engines all came from the Daihatsu Cuore rather than the bigger Charade. The 550 cc Innocenti 500 (with L or more luxurious LS equipment) was first shown in November 1987 and replaced the preceding "650" since engine-supplier Daihatsu had ended production of the outdated two-cylinder engine. The carburetted 500 offered 31 PS at 6400 rpm for a 116 km/h top speed. In late 1988, about 75 percent of Innocentis sold in the home market were 500s. Outside Italy, this car also found some popularity in France, where its 3CV tax rating was as low as that of the considerably less habitable Fiat 126.

From the outside, the 500 could be identified by some visual alterations as recently used on the 990: a horizontally divided grille with a prominent "i" logo larger bumpers which incorporated the lower air intake up front. The rear number plate moved up, to between the taillights. The interior was also updated, with round gauges and new upholstery. The LS also gained an asymmetrically divided folding rear seat.

Small
Following Fiat's 1990 takeover of Innocenti, the car was renamed the Innocenti Small and the Diesel, Matic, and Turbo de Tomaso versions were dropped. Updates included a slight facelift in November 1990, while the little 500's engine was updated to a 659 cc version following changes to the kei car regulations in March 1990 to allow for 660 cc of displacement—Daihatsu had quickly replaced the smaller EB engine with the somewhat bigger EF unit. Power remained exactly the same, while an increase in torque from 42 Nm at 4,000 rpm to 49 Nm at 3,400 rpm increased flexibility and meant that the top speed crept up to 120 km/h. Fuel economy also increased moderately. In July 1991 a luxurious "Serie Speciale" variant of the 990 was introduced, also offered with an available canvas-roof. The 990 Serie Speciale featured an alcantara interior by Missoni.

In 1992, catalysed versions of both Innocenti Small versions entered the market. These versions had marginally lower power (see table) and top speeds. The last development was the "Small 500 SE" of 1993, which offered the smaller engine mounted in the longer "990"-style body. Production ended on March 31, 1993, with sales continuing into the next year. Daihatsu did stop using the three-cylinder CB engine in their own cars a few months before, but this may be coincidental.

Turbo de Tomaso
After the change to Daihatsu engines, a new De Tomaso version with a turbocharged, 72 PS version of the 993 cc three-cylinder engine was presented in December 1983. Italian sales began the next month. This was the two-valve version; the considerably more powerful multivalve version used in the Charade GTti was never used in the Innocenti. The bodywork was also revised, with the headlights now sloping backwards and with new bumpers, skirts, and bumper extensions to fit the 160/65 SR315 (TRX) alloys. The sporty steering wheel received a leather rim. The original version was equipped with an Italian development of the naturally aspirated CB22 engine (called CB-DT, for "De Tomaso"), with an IHI RHB5 turbocharger and the same 9.1:1 compression ratio as for the CB22. Max power was reached at 6200 rpm for the original version. In road tests the Innocenti came in for complaints for its awkward upright driving position, mediocre comfort, and instability under braking. Plus points were steering, light weight, and appearance. The CB-DT engine was noted for its smoothness and lack of "brio".

In the second half of 1984 the Italian CB-DT engine was replaced with the fully Daihatsu-built CB60 engine. The CB60, with a smaller IHI RHB32 charger and a more suitable 8:1 compression ratio (with a 0.5 bar charge, rather than the 0.37 bar used in the CB-DT), reached max power at 5700 rpm. Tractability at lower engine speeds also improved since the smaller charger was more willing to spool up; this had been an area of concern with the earlier engine which had little power beneath 3500 rpm.

In July 1988 the engine was upgraded to CB61 specifications; this version received grey rather than red casings in the engine compartment. For the Canadian (and Swiss) markets, a catalysed version of the carburetted CB60 engine was installed. This unit was slightly less powerful, with 68 PS at 5500 rpm. After Fiat's purchase of Innocenti in 1990, the Turbo de Tomaso, along with the diesel and the "Matic" versions, were all dropped.

Exports
European exports had been run by the British Leyland affiliates in target markets, and were either halted or generally slowed down once the Daihatsu-engined cars were introduced. In 1982 and most of 1983 Minitres were only exported to France, Belgium, and to Switzerland. In 1983 Innocenti re-entered the German market, signalling a slow climb in exports once again.

The Innocenti DeTomaso was brought to Canada by a company called Incacars (Dino Rivera, Montreal) from 1984 but sales dropped considerably with concerns about reliability – from 2,000 cars the first year to only 196 in the first six months of 1986. Apart from catalysed versions of the CB22 or CB60 (DeTomaso) engines, the Canada-bound DeTomasos also received unique rectangular side-marker lights.

title: Innocenti Mini


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title: User talk:68.46.83.203