text:
Talk:Tabitha Smith

Image?
Could we have a picture? I don't understand copyright law well enough to find one we can use. DuctapeDaredevil 01:34, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

- -- LEC20 21:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, we have an image now. Now, I just wish it was more recent. Maybe something from the recent X-Force mini-series or from the Weapon X series.

 * I added more images, to the page. I tried adding those that features her in more recent appearances. - -- LEC20 20:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Could someone maybe upload a profile image that isn't by Rob Liefeld, as I feel he grossly misrepresents the character. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.132.122.3 (talk • contribs) 29 January 2006.
 * PLEASE let's avoid Liefeld altogether, if possible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.120.225.199 (talk • contribs) 6 May 2006.
 * I agree...that doesn't look like Tabitha. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.17.174.18 (talk • contribs) 15 September 2006.
 * Would an image of Tabby-as-seen-in-Nextwave be suitable? I don't want to ignore her past, but it's a definite image change - and it's the version that's getting attention at the moment. --Mrph 00:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

That's on a par with passing Lobo an exploding cigar.
"Boom Boom" has the unique distinction of being the only character in any version of Marvel continuity to have pranked the ominpotent Beyonder. And survived.

During Secret Wars II, after striking up a brief friendship with the alienated diety, Boom Boom slipped a time bomb into the Beyonder's back pocket during a goodbye hug as he prepared to return to his home realm and forsake the (to him) incomprehensible Earth universe. After his return home, his pants exploded, restoring his resolve to fathom the mystery of desire (a concept alien to a being whose will immediately became reality). Tabitha's prank therefore endangered the universe in a way that heavyweights like Doctor Doom or Thanos could never dream of approaching, in that the Beyonder terrified even the most cosmic of Marvel entities (who wanted only that the Beyonder should leave and never return).

You go, girl. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.52.193.105 (talk • contribs) 12 July 2005.

Tabitha Smith Forever
I think she is the best, she is funny, lovely, rebel but saddly she is not one of the X-Men. She would do good in the X-men Rogue's Team, as she has a history with Cannonball and Sabretooth, she is Like a Cable's daughter and in X-men Evolution she had a history with Mystique as she did kick her out of her house, and i think she and Rogue would get along together. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amsterdamx (talk • contribs) 7 September 2006.

Name of Article: Boom-Boom
This article was named "Tabitha Smith" when Boom-Boom BRIEFLY dropped her codename during the Nextwave series. Boom-Boom has gone by "Boom-Boom" consistently for a long time now and is universally called Boom-Boom in almost any context. Re-naming the article "Boom-Boom" is recommended. 26 January 2019.

List of titles

 * Nextwave #1-11
 * Cable #21, 29, 71, 73-74
 * Deadpool Vol. 2 #22
 * Excalibur #82
 * Fallen Angels #3-8
 * New Mutants Vol. 1 #72-74, 76-80, 82-100
 * New Mutants Annual #5-7
 * ''New Warriors Vol. 1 #45
 * New Warriors Annual #1
 * Spider-Man #16
 * Uncanny X-Men #270-273, 294-295, 304, 326, 328, 331, 375, 388
 * Uncanny X-Men Annual #14-15
 * Weapon X Vol. 2 #6-8, 10-13
 * Wolverine Vol. 2 #92-93
 * X-Factor Vol. 1 #11-18, 22-23, 27-33, 40-41, 60, 62, 84-85, 106
 * X-Factor Annual #3, 5-6
 * X-Force Vol. 1 #-1, 1-2, 5-17, 19, 21-29, 32, 34-54, 57, 62, 69-87, 89-115, 117
 * X-Force Annual #1
 * X-Force Vol. 2 #2-6
 * X-Man #18
 * X-Men (Second Series) #14-15, 30, 41, 47
 * X-Men Annual 1996
 * X-Men: Prime
 * X-Men Unlimited Vol. 1 #23
 * X-Terminators #1-4

Fair use rationale for Image:82190-boom-boom 400.jpg
Image:82190-boom-boom 400.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 04:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:41254-boom-boom 400.jpg
Image:41254-boom-boom 400.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 05:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Boomer12.JPG
Image:Boomer12.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 02:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Recent editing
I'd like to point out a few things:
 * The SHB now displays her current look.
 * The article is condensed, eliminating trivial information. This is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, after all.
 * Some images have been removed, because they are either of crappy resolution, or they do not add anything to the article.
 * The trivia section is gone, as is desirable per wiki guidelines.
 * Toys and games fit under other media.
 * The article has a start at references, which all articles REQUIRE. Kusonaga 08:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Tabitha freed Sabretooth?
Tabitha deliberately freed Sabretooth from his bonds?

Lots42 14:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Not so much, although she did hope to engage him in combat/rough him up a bit, which was Sabes' plan, since it would free him. Kusonaga 14:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

That's it?
That's it?? Now it doesn't say much about her or even the best pic she ever had is gone,I can't believe my 2 years working on my favorite and only x-characters page is ruined.Not that your job is bad, you did good man, man you took off too much stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amsterdamx (talk • contribs)
 * Actually, it says enough about her. It talk about the key points of her fictional life and doesn't delve into overt detail. There was a lot of useless and/or irrelevant info in there. Please remember that Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, not a fansite, and that it's not really "your" article, as it is the article of the wiki. Kusonaga 06:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

OH really? Never said was "MY" article, the same way is not "Your" article, its about have respect over others people's rights, the same right i have you have, but you can't just come in here and do whatever you want and take over, you think says enough about her, but i don't, the useless and irrelevant info might be for but you not for me or for other people.Because the same way you are telling me your way is right, i'm gonna say the same, and someone will come and do the same thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amsterdamx (talk • contribs)
 * It's not my article either, it's the article of wikipedia. Sorry, but there's no "right" to your writing. It ignores wikipedia policy and guidelines (which I seriously suggest you read up on). Articles should be concise and weed out unnecessary info, again, this is not a fansite. If you want trivial information about Tabitha, that's what a fansite is for, but not wikipedia. This is an encyclopedia. There are guidelines for these things, and you're not following them. Kusonaga 16:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Amsterdamx, better more info than less, people can just skip the parts they don't want to read. -Anonymous
 * Wikipedia guidelines state that content should avoid delving into non-relevant and unnecessary detail. If the major fictional history of a character can be explained concisely and accurately, then that is the most appropriate content.  There is no "right to writing" here.  You're welcome to edit, but if you're concerned about your additions being edited to death, then you're advised not to edit.  If content was in a super-saturated "skip what you want" basis, how would people know where to skip and where to start to get the best picture of the content?  That's already problematic.  As it is, the page is better off.Luminum (talk) 04:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Disagree with the pic
I hope the intent of the new pic was not to have the absolutely most current version of the character up there. We should at least have one of her in color, with a timebomb being generated.

Granted, Tabitha has had a lost of costume changes but this is not a good pic.

Lots42 03:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This picture is a full body picture that shows her design and is current. If you have a better in-color picture from Nextwave, you can add that, sure, but I kinda worked with what we had, and the Weapon X picture was outdated. Kusonaga 06:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I understand what you were trying to do and it's cool, but I just wanted it to be known that the pictures for fictional characters doesn't always have to be the most absolutely recent costume/design. Lots42 16:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh really? How many outdates pics others many characters have? The black and white one is not good, and as you see not all of us are pleased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amsterdamx (talk • contribs)
 * Other articles having the same problems doesn't make it right. Kusonaga 16:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The B&W pic is not only subpar, but it is also incorrect. Nextwave is set in an alternate universe. Article has been altered and sourced for reference. -- 69.177.242.99

While I am confused about the part of Nextwave being in an alternate universe (this makes me sad) this is a picture I can surely get behind. Perfect Tabitha. Lots42 10:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nextwave is not in an alternate universe. The one-shot with Iron Man's files on Civil War and the players involved note that the Nextwave stories were delusions or something similar. Nonetheless, these characters have worn these outfits in 616. I'm going to refrain on reverting the article again, because I've got to go, but hopefully someone else will. Kusonaga 13:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Believe me, I wish it was a little more concrete in the books themselves, but here it is from the head honcho himself. In a 2006 interview, Editor-in-Chief Joe Quesada stated that Nextwave's setting was in an universe separate from the main Marvel continuity.* Wade Gum (2006-07-01): "Heros Con: Joe Quesada Panel"

Oh really? And what is the nextwave team doing in the avengers initiative? Is it another universe?? What he means was Nextwave woudn't have the same reality as does the 616, but doesn't mean they weren't in 616. Facts Storm did receive a gift from Dirk Anger for her wedding, in the 198 files it is confirmed that Tabitha smith became menber of H.A.T.E.

No one said that the NEXTWAVE team doesn't exist in 616. The issue at hand is that the stories told in the NEXTWAVE series were an alternate universe version of the team and is comfirmed by Joe Q.

????
Tabitha in a fight with Sebastian Shaw and Holocaust? She wasn't in a fight, she was attacked by surprise,this is wrong. Anyway, i changed it again, i made mine and yours together in one, so is that ok with you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amsterdamx (talk • contribs)
 * You didn't really merge a lot of our versions. You just went and reverted to your version but in a few steps. Also, please start signing your comments on talk pages. Kusonaga 16:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

WHAT????Ok mate, Listen do you want a war??? I'm not 18 years older anymore like u, and i sure doesn't have the need as you have to be around wikki showing yourself of, or to be lecture by you to tell me what is better or not, Don't tell me what to do, who do You think You are??? Do you want to take over of the wikki now??? Didn't you get enough from Superman and now want to go around????

And i'm what???? blatantly ignoring wikipedia policy????I'm sooo not, You go find something better for you to do, I know what you are doing, you are talking about wikipedia like if i was doing something wrong so you can have total control yourself, Grow up kid.

And don't say i didn't merge because if you read Fallen Angel, New Mutants, X-Force, Underground, on the road, all of than was wrote by you. And don't say Trivia is not good because all of Marvel Characters got Trivia and you got rid of it, go try other character mate, Skids maybe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amsterdamx (talk • contribs)
 * Please refrain from personal attacks. Have you read wikipedia policy? Have you read the Manual of Style? Have you looked at WikiProject Comics? I really hope "no" isn't the answer to those three questions. Now, please, calm down. The Tabitha Smith article was indicated to require condensing. I did so, making sure to implement other changes as well. You see, stuff like:
 * "Meltdown powering up".
 * Past tense.
 * "Boomer approaches Meltdown".
 * A trivia section.
 * Are all against preferred wikipedia policy, and these are just some examples. Please, check out List of policies, WikiProject Comics/Style guidance, WikiProject Comics/exemplars, Naming conventions (comics), Avoid trivia sections in articles. Again, just because an other article has it, doesn't make it right. Kusonaga 17:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm done, Amsterdamx in 19/06/2007 at 18:36 from Hastings, England, Planet Earth, Solar system.

Re-Write
This article is in serious need of an overhaul. Some of the sentence structure and grammer is bordering on gibberish. I really don't know enough about Boom Boom to do this otherwise Id just get torn in.

Problems with the Portuguese version of Tabitha's codename
Although 'Fusão' would more obviously be a translation for 'Fusion', it is indeed the proper translation for 'Meltdown', since 'fusion' is the scientific term for the event of a substance going from solid to liquid state, -- thus making the Portuguese version of the codename a precise translation, and not an adaptation, as the text suggests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.0.66.46 (talk) 20:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Nomt10.jpg
Image:Nomt10.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 15:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Secret Invasion
There has been a lot of edit warring over this. I will be removing this as she is not mentioned by name and shoehorning it in here is crystal ball gazing. Add it into New Mutants and that is the right place for now. I am starting this section for discussion but it is speculation unless there is a reliable source saying she is included. (Emperor (talk) 19:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC))

Are u stupid or what?Fine, u are going to take over this article and not body can right anymore is that right? If its has been said that all past menber from all X- teams and former new mutants will be in it so why she can't be mentioned anymore. Not single character have bneem mentioned but so is Elixir and he got the same speculation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.160.107 (talk) 15:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I'd ask you to be WP:CIVIL and try and address the point. Equally, don't try and edit war this section in without addressing the points I raise here, as this can lead to the issuing of warnings and/or page protection.

 * To repeat myself - add this to New Mutants until she is confirmed as part of the line-up then you can add a mention but until the comics come out there is very little worth saying about her role without further sources. (Emperor (talk) 17:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC))

O God, I'm fighting against a possessive geek who treats to take over and complaints, You are in the war dude not me, Grow up and get a life.

 * Far form being possessive I was asked to look into this because of the edit warring taking place, Rather than casting aspersions and trying to jam the text in, how about addressing the points? (Emperor (talk) 14:28, 25 June 2008 (UTC))

Whatever Child —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.232.221 (talk) 15:29, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Forbush Man
I own the Nextwave/Forbush Man stories, yet the bit concerning this in the 'abillities' section is still confusing. Lots42 (talk) 06:38, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Tabitha Smith


text:
Talk:The Voyage of the Dawn Treader

Discussion
"There are also symbolic references to Holy Communion (pictured as a feast hosted by a living star) and other Christian themes, but chiefly it works on the level of an exciting children's adventure story, and a re-working on the themes of the great sea-voyages of classical mythology, particularly the story of Jason and the Argonautica."

Could someone write a bit more about the "other Christian themes" alluded to in the passage above?

 * Well, I'm not certain I understand exactly what you mean. The last part of it should really be a different sentence, and I did just now break it apart. I haven't read the book in over a year, and I don't have it before me, so the following is from memory. A very long table was set out, each plate full of food, each cup full of wine. Whatever remained uneated at dawn (or perhaps dusk) was eaten by a flock of birds that flew in (as memory serves, from the west) and ate all the food so that nothing was left behind, and then flew away (in the same direction, so as memory serves, to the east). And just now, I understand what you mean by your question.

 * Other Christian themes: Well, the "other Christian themes" doesn't refer to the table, that I can tell, other than all that goes with the Holy Communion. And as well, all by memory, I can't think of any other specific Christian themes, but I do remember that there were some. Sorry I can't help you with that. You just have to read the book. :-) It is the most adventuresome and is very exciting. I read it for the first time when I was 22 or 23, and I enjoyed it immensely. Sorry I can't help you more than that. --D. F. Schmidt (talk) 18:04, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Couldn't this be an example of an immram? The title of the novel follows that typical pattern "Voyage of..." and immrams are intrinsically Christian. IrisWings 05:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally I think the use of John 3:16 should either not be linked or replaced by the word "thesis" only because it creates some confusion in its usage. DeathscytheH64 04:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The entire idea of Eustace becoming a dragon had huge Christian influence. I personally perceive him becoming a dragon a purgatory of sorts. But then someone pointed me to a passage in the bible that talks about Jesus healing a blind man and removing the scales from his eyes after allowing him to try. In the bible it is supposed to mean that God will fix and sometimes it will take time. With the presumption that Aslan represents Jesus, this could be symbolic of Eustace's healing and baptism. -- JoeAlfaro —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.184.205.142 (talk) 05:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Time
I deleted "The year is 1942." from the synopsis. Lewis is inconsistent: In Chapter 1, he says the events of LWW were "long ago, in the war years". In Chapter 2, Edmund says one year has passed since the events of Prince Caspian. Arrgh. —wwoods 05:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you're right on deleting the 1942 thing. It is unnecessary. But, in fact, C.S. Lewis later, in one of his books, made a timeline to his books, placing this story in England time 1942. --ANNAfoxlover

Alternate markup for the edition comparison table
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lsommerer (talk • contribs)

 * I like it. Much clearer. I added one teensy paragraph marking for 3-6 in the left column. --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 02:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Huh, I did this one first and didn't like it as much. But I put it here because I wasn't sure about not liking it as much. I just now edited it so that the paragraphs line up better. Looking at it now, I think you're right. I'll wait to see if there's more feedback then change it.LloydSommerer 03:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Putting other version here just in case we want it later... LloydSommerer 13:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree, there's little difference between them unless you're looking very hard. Katana Geldar 02:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Katana Geldar (talk • contribs)

 * Can someone clarify the significance of these differences. In all but a couple of cases, the difference is simply the replacing of double-quotes with single-quotes... is that correct?  Is such a differece worth mentioning at such length?  Why not a description of the substantive difference, plus a note that the American version uses single-quotes to denote speech?  WI think that that miught be less confusing.  Leeborkman 12:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Italics in title
The article currently states:
 * By English grammatical rules, both book titles and ship names are italicized when written. Since "Dawn Treader" is part of both, it is put in Roman text to signify this.

In agreement with this, I reverted an edit to The Chronicles of Narnia the other day that extended the italics to the full title. This was then changed back to a fully italicised title, but with quotes around 'Dawn Treader'; the edit comment (from Myopic Bookworm) stated, "you can't deitalicize if there's then no distinction from the context". It's a fair point, but we really ought to be consistent on how we present the title. Ideas? -- Perey 08:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This is not a grammatical rule, and the statement is therefore incorrect (though I have not yet altered it, pending discussion here). It is a useful but optional convention of typography. Even the cover image in this article illustrates the point that it is optional. If the book title is marked off by quotation marks as ‘The Voyage of the Dawn Treader’ then it is possible to use the italic convention for the ship's name; but Wikipedia style (and common practice) is to italicize book titles, and reverse typeface is then not a practical option, since The Voyage of the Dawn Treader runs into the following text. (You can get away with it at the head of this article because the book title is also in bold face as the subject of the article.) If you insist that the name of the ship must be distinct in some way (which is by no means obligatory), then the best option, in my opinion, is to retain the italic convention for the book title, and to use the alternative quotation mark convention for the ship's name: The Voyage of the ‘Dawn Treader’. And this really is far too trivial a matter to be placed in the head of this article: if it's worth mentioning at all, it should be in a note tucked away nearer the bottom. Myopic Bookworm 11:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that was I who put the note at the top of the page, because I also reverted an edit on The Chronicles of Narnia, like Perey. If we do decide to keep it, I agree it should be moved to the bottom. However, I don't believe you can rely on the cover art for technical rules (this particular cover has italicized "of the," solely because they are minor words which they decided to make a bit more fancy, while "Voyage" is definitely not in italics). I'm looking at the HarperTrophy edition of the book, which differs from the current one we have, because it clearly has set Dawn Treader in italics. Throughout the book, Dawn Treader is italicized as well. I don't believe that it matters whether the Roman text of the book title collides with the remaining text on the page, it is technically correct. Also, according to the MOS, ships and books are to be italicized. --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 14:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Ahhh, I just went and italicised "the Dawn Treader" (making it the same font as "The Voyage of" on the Susan page, because when double-italicised, it is in the same font as the surrounding text. This formatting suggests that "the Dawn Treader" is neither part of the title nor a ship's name, so the effect is counter-productive.  Let rules serve the meaning, not obscure it. btw, I'll change it back if you like ;-) Leeborkman 12:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

 * In the interests of clarity, if The Voyage of the Dawn Treader appears in a sentence which doesn't indicate where the title ends, then italicizing the whole thing is the way to go. But if the title is set off, e.g. by bolding or a wikilink, then the partial italicization is a nice touch, IMO. And often it's easy to rephrase a sentence, e.g. by putting the title at the end, or adding the publication date: The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (1952) to the same effect.

No offense to grammarians, but why is this discussion summed up in the first paragraph of the article? Most people just don't care about this sort of thing -- let alone putting it in the lead-off paragraph. I would get rid of it altogether and replace it with a couple of sentences about what the book is about. 68.8.110.219 02:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Because well-meaning but slow-thinking people keep changing it. Myopic Bookworm 11:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a copy of this book that has "Dawn Treader" set in single quotation marks in the title on the cover; perhaps that could be a compromise solution that would eliminate the need for the note? (It's an older American edition from a boxed set using the original ordering of the books.) 1995hoo 01:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I think the title of this book should probably be written completely in ital with the ship's name in single quotes. I have a couple reasons for this. First, whether ship names are ital or not doesn't matter; this is the title of a book. Second, you shouldn't follow the rules of your style book to the point where you're confusing the reader. It's better to write clearly than get hung up on a bit of style. And I think putting single quotes around the ship's name gets the point across quite well.

I know this is a fairly late entry to this, but typographically, underlining has been used as an alternative to italics for both book and ship titles (usually when italics were not available). So, might it be an option to underline Dawn Treader within the italicized title (i.e. "Dawn Treader" would be both italicized and underlined), such that it is set off from both the (only italicized) rest of the title, and the (romanized) text? John Darrow (talk) 22:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Dragon
The part about Eustace being turned into a dragon should probably be in the plot summary. I haven't read the book in a while so I'll let someone else handle it.--roger6106 22:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with you. Wow, I've never said that before!

Chapters
I think the chapter listings for the Chronicles of Narnia books should be removed. I started a discussion at Talk:The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe--roger6106 03:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Consider it done. They are unneccessary. b_cubed 03:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "THEY ARE UNNECCESSARY?!?!" I THINK HE SHOULD "B CUBED"! I happen to think that the chapters are very useful.

Yeah the Chapters are very usefull and should be put back on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.238.105 (talk) 00:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Burnt Island
In the plot, where it mentions all the islands the crew goes to, there is a mention of "Burnt Island". What is Burnt Island? I don't remember reading this in the book.

 * I don't have a copy handy, but I think it was a small island east of the dragon's island. Within flying range, evidently.
 * —wwoods 06:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

this is from soumyadeep, in the third part of narnia what happened peter and suzan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.7.77.179 (talk) 10:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Embarrassment
"I am... but there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there." I COMPLETELY missed the Jesus/God reference —Preceding unsigned comment added by David Cat (talk • contribs) 22:40, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Please make sure you know the story before you edit!
I just had to edit a section in this article that mentions plot details that do not occur at all in the novel. Whoever wrote the part where Caspian goes ashore towards the end with Susan, Edmund, Eustace and Repicheep must have ben smoking hobbitweed. Katana Geldar 11:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC) shes right! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.65.240.214 (talk) 22:08, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

British/American differences
In the table of differences between British and American versions, entires 2,3 and 6 seem to be identical apart from the single/double quotations. Is there a reason they are there? DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * They're placeholders, so that all the paragraphs are accounted for. It would make sense to use a very light gray background for them. Elphion (talk) 06:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Commentary is WAY too biased!
The main issue that I have with this article is that the "Commentary" section is written from a decidedly Christian standpoint. Even though I myself am a "believer", I also see the value of keeping Wikipedia on neutral ground. To that end, I'll be editing some of the text in that section, moving it toward NPOV. Some "hard-liners" are going to be really miffed by this, sorry. It's the Wikipedia standard... Edit Centric (talk) 18:48, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Why is there even a commentary? I wasn't aware encyclopedic articles had commentaries! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.241.122.68 (talk) 18:56, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Given that about five months has passed since the tagging, and the Commentary section still consisted of purely original research, I've deleted it. This is not in any way an attack on the opinions or efforts of the author of that section - it was very interesting, but was inappropriate material for a Wikipedia article in that form. Hopefully if it is restored, it will be with appropriate references to established 3rd party sources for the themes discussed, e.g. academic texts on the Narnia books as Christian allegory. earwicker (talk) 18:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

No movie
The movie section should be erased, as there is not going to be such movie:  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tucayo (talk • contribs) 22:51, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Why should it be erased if it doesn't get made? A film was still put into pre-production and that's a fact. Secondly, simply because Disney pulled out doesn't mean Walden won't make it with someone else. :P Alientraveller (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Differences between editions?
Why are these changes notable? Staecker (talk) 18:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

 * The subject of an article should be notable. That there are differences between the editions is important, and seeing that there are differences, I would immediately want to know what kind of differences there are and how significant they are.  Since they can be enumerated easily there is no particular reason not to (and this is the cleanest and least judgmental way to do it).  I had not known this before seeing it in WP; and this is the kind of information I would want and expect to see here. Elphion (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Article content, as well as the article subject should be notable. The fact that there are differences between the editions is not necessarily important. Books are revised and edited between publication editions all the time. Looking them over, I see nothing important in the changes. Of course this is just my opinion (I assume you have a different opinion), but the burden to establish notability is on the editor who wants to add the content. Can you establish that these are facts worth including? (I'm not just being difficult here- if there really is something interesting in the changes I'd love for the article to reflect that.) Staecker (talk) 20:54, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not indiscriminate. It is, pace your remark, quite *unusual* for the text of a work of fiction to change intentionally between editions (except possibly for regional linguistic conventions), unless the differences represent corrections.  These changes are very puzzling.  Are they due to Lewis or to his American editors?  They certainly don't look like corrections.  Why has such random liberty been taken with the text?  I was surprised at the differences, which I would not have known about but for WP, since (like most of us) I have no access to a variety of editions.  I'd like to know *more* about this, not less.  What other editorial travesties (like the character sketches or the ridiculous renumbering) have been foisted on Lewis's work? Elphion (talk) 14:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess you know more about publication of fiction than I do. The questions you raise might have interesting answers, or their answers might be totally uninteresting. Do you have a particular reason (that can be adequately sourced) to believe that the reasons for the changes are notable? Like you, I also would not have been aware of the changes were it not for this article. But since the changes are not obviously significant, what's the point of my now knowing about them? Providing information for its own sake is not the purpose of Wikipedia.
 * I have removed the changes which consisted only of changing quotation marks style. These, I'm sure you'll agree, are not "very puzzling" changes. As I've said, none of the other changes in particular are puzzling to me, though I guess I'll agree if you say so that the fact that there were changes at all is puzzling. Perhaps the table could be deleted, and in the text above the table, "made the following changes" could be changed to "made minor changes to the text of four paragraphs" or something like that? Staecker (talk) 16:04, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * To me it is noteworthy for a couple of reasons: (1) It occurred very rarely in the series. Lewis only made a handful(4?) changes for the American publication. (2) Lewis scholars believe it is worth including in books about the series. I do not favor the recent changes to the layout, because I do not think it presents the two editions in a way that is as easy to compare in context. Maybe the version from a few edits ago is better? I'll add it, feel free to revert if you don't like it. LloydSommerer (talk) 17:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Could your (1) be sourced and added into the article, perhaps with a reference from one of the books mentioned in (2)? I also prefer the layout that Lsommerer prefers- though now all the quote marks are doubled. Is that what you wanted? Staecker (talk) 22:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I took a stab at rewriting the section. I have no illusion that I am a great author, additional copy editing is appreciated. LloydSommerer (talk) 01:23, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow- that's great! I'm entirely satisfied. Staecker (talk) 01:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Errors and inconsistencies
Maybe there should be a section for this. Although minor, and not part of the text, I notice that Pauline Baynes's illustration of Caspian's cabin includes a globe. Although the difference between flat worlds and round worlds is a topic of discussion in the book, I can't see why Caspian would have a globe, as the world of Narnia is flat. Very flat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.59.101.254 (talk) 08:36, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * This hardly warrants a whole section. Inasmuch as the illustrations are scarcely discussed at all, it's not clear we need to worry about it. While I don't seriously doubt that this is a error on Baynes's part, do we know that Narnia is in fact "Very flat", and not, say, domed (as the ancient Greeks once considered the Earth)? -- Elphion (talk) 20:25, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Disney vs 20th Century Fox
User 76.232.120.28 has been editing the article to assert that the recent film adaptation is a third Disney installment, but it is distributed by 20th Century Fox, as our article on the film indicates. -- Elphion (talk) 12:13, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

duplication
Joni Mitchell is now in the article twice... AnonMoos (talk) 15:44, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Accusation on Twitter that this article has an "obvious error".
A Twitter user claims there is an "obvious error" in the following sentence in the article's introduction: "The Voyage features a second return to the Narnia world, about three years later in Narnia and one year later in England, by Edmund and Lucy Pevensie, the younger two of the four English children featured in the first two books."

As far as I can tell, he seems to think it's wrong to say this is Edmund's and Lucy's "second return" to Narnia, even though I have pointed out to him that CSL in chapter 1 explicitly says that they "had already visited it twice" (that is, in the first and second books). Thus, the visit in The Voyage is indeed their second return. I just wanted to call attention to his complaint because he is using this one sentence to indict all of Wikipedia: "Consider the errors we spot on Wikipedia because we're experts in our fields, and consider the obvious errors even children can see (below)."

https://twitter.com/dakobed/status/779739593046306816

He also seems to think the sentence is ungrammatical, but I also disagree with him about that. (It is too long, though, I think.)

I am a long-time but very inexperienced editor here, so I apologize if I should have done this some other way.

ELC (talk) 18:47, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Perhaps he is counting the separate trips through the Wardrobe as separate visits? Or doesn't read "second return" as meaning a return after the first return?  Who knows, if he won't be specific.  Since Lewis explicitly called PC "The Return to Narnia", and since VDT is clearly another return to Narnia, I'm comfortable with "a second return". -- Elphion (talk) 22:36, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

 * I think that's what he's doing. However, that's not what Lewis himself did. Here are the two pertinent quotations from Chapter 1: "They [Edmund and Lucy] had already visited it [Narnia] twice...." and "Consquently, when the Pevensie children had returned to Narnia last time for their second visit...." Thank you. ELC (talk) 23:43, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Yes, that seems fairly definitive. -- Elphion (talk) 05:37, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

This has come up before -- some people don't seems to understand that second return means third visit. See https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Voyage_of_the_Dawn_Treader&diff=614356687&oldid=614330382 and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Voyage_of_the_Dawn_Treader&diff=579101893&oldid=579067942 and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Voyage_of_the_Dawn_Treader&diff=569020214&oldid=568963447 -- AnonMoos (talk) 10:19, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:The Voyage of the Dawn Treader


text: User talk:68.197.91.13

title: User talk:68.197.91.13


text:
Succession to Muhammad

The issue of succession following the death of the Islamic prophet Muhammad is the central issue in the schisms that divided the early Muslim community in the first century of Islamic history into numerous schools and branches. The two most prominent branches that emerged from these divisions are Sunni and Shia branches of Islam. Sunni Islam asserts that Abu Bakr rightfully succeeded Muhammad through a process of election. In contrast, Shia Islam maintains that Ali ibn Abi Talib was Muhammad's designated successor.

These differing viewpoints on succession stem from varying interpretations of early Islamic history and the hadiths, which are the recorded sayings of Muhammad. Sunni Muslims contend that Muhammad did not explicitly appoint a successor, leaving the choice of leadership to the Muslim community. They recognize the legitimacy of Abu Bakr's rule, who was elected at Saqifah, as well as that of his successors, collectively known as the Rashidun caliphs.

Conversely, Twelver Shia Muslims believe that Muhammad had explicitly designated Ali as his heir, notably during the Event of Ghadir Khumm, following the revelation of verse 5:67 in the Quran. According to Twelver Shia doctrine, the subsequent rulers after Muhammad are considered illegitimate, with Ali and his lineage of eleven divinely-appointed Twelve Imams being the rightful successors. The last of these Imams, Mahdi, entered occultation in 260 AH (874 CE) due to threats from his enemies. The anticipated return of Mahdi holds significance for most Muslims, although different sects maintain varying perspectives on this matter.

Historiography
Most Islamic history was transmitted orally until after the rise of the Abbasid Caliphate. Historical works of later Muslim writers include the traditional biographies of Muhammad and quotations attributed to him—the sira and hadith literature—which provide further information on Muhammad's life. The earliest surviving written sira (biography of Muhammad) is Sirat Rasul Allah (Life of God's Messenger) by Ibn Ishaq (d. 761 or 767 CE). Although the original work is lost, portions of it survive in the recensions of Ibn Hisham (d. 833) and Al-Tabari (d. 923). Many scholars accept these biographies although their accuracy is uncertain. Studies by Schacht and Goldziher have led the scholars to distinguish between legal and historical traditions. According to Watt, although legal traditions could have been invented, historical material may have been primarily subject to "tendential shaping" rather than being invented. Modern Western scholars approach the classic Islamic histories with circumspection and are less likely than Sunni Islamic scholars to trust the work of the Abbasid historians.

Hadith compilations are records of the traditions or sayings of Muhammad. The development of hadith is a crucial element of the first three centuries of Islamic history. Early Western scholars mistrusted the later narrations and reports, regarding them as fabrications. Caetani considered the attribution of historical reports to Ibn Abbas and Aisha as mostly fictitious, preferring accounts reported without isnad by early historians such as Ibn Ishaq. Madelung has rejected the indiscriminate dismissal of everything not included in "early sources", instead judging later narratives in the context of history and compatibility with events and figures.

The only contemporaneous source is The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays (Kitab al-Saqifah) by Sulaym ibn Qays (died 75-95 AH or 694-714 CE). This collection of hadith and historical reports from the first century of the Islamic calendar narrates in detail events relating to the succession. However, there have been doubts regarding the reliability of the collection, with some believing that it was a later creation given that the earliest mention of the text only appears in the eleventh century.

Saqifa
In the immediate aftermath of Muhammad's death in 11/632, a gathering of the Ansar (Medinan Muslims) took place at the Saqifa (lit. 'courtyard') of the Banu Sa'ida clan, while Muhammad's close relatives were preparing for his burial. The conventional wisdom is that the Ansar met there to decide on a new leader for the Muslim community among themselves, with the intentional exclusion of the Muhajirun. The leading candidate was possibly Sa'd ibn Ubada, a companion of Muhammad and a chief of the Banu Khazraj, the majority tribe of the Ansar. Their motive has been questioned by Madelung and Jafri, who contend that the Ansar only wanted to re-establish their control over their city, Medina. When they found out about the meeting via an informant, Abu Bakr and Umar rushed to the Saqifa, accompanied by Abu Ubaida. These three companions were the only members of the Muhajirun in the Saqifa meeting, possibly accompanied by some relatives and servants. Once there, Abu Bakr warned the Ansar that Arabs will not recognize the rule of anyone outside of Muhammad's tribe, the Quraysh. The Muhajirun, Abu Bakr argued, were the best of Arabs in lineage and location, had accepted Islam earlier, and were closer to Muhammad in kinship. Abu Bakr then reportedly invited the Ansar to choose Umar or Abu Ubaida as Muhammad's successor. Since his two candidates lacked any realistic chance of success, this manoeuvre presented Abu Bakr as an acceptable alternative to Umar and Abu Ubaida for the Ansar.

Someone countered Abu Bakr with the suggestion that the Quraysh and the Ansar should choose their separate rulers among themselves. A heated argument ensued until Umar asked Abu Bakr to stretch his hand and pledged allegiance to the latter, followed by others. In the process, Sa'd was beaten into submission by Umar, which indicates that a substantial number of the Ansar must have initially refused to follow Umar's lead. Otherwise, there would have been no need to beat up their chief Sa'd, according to Madelung.

Muhammad had been buried by the time the Saqifa meeting ended, with the exclusion of Abu Bakr from the funeral rites. The authority of Abu Bakr was precarious at first, until Umar secured the pledges of allegiance from the Medinans with help from the Banu Aslam and Banu Aws tribes. In chronological order, Abu Bakr obtained the backing of Uthman and of the Banu Umayyad, of Sa'd and Abd al-Rahman ibn Awf, of the Banu Zuhra, of Zubayr, and finally of Ali.

The Banu Hashim and some companions of Muhammad gathered at Ali's house in protest after learning about the appointment of Abu Bakr. Among them were Muhammad's uncle Abbas and Zubayr. These held Ali to be the rightful successor to Muhammad, possibly referring to the announcement by the latter at the Ghadir Khumm. Ordered by Abu Bakr, Umar then led an armed mob to Ali's residence and threatened to set the house on fire if Ali and his supporters would not pledge their allegiance to Abu Bakr. The scene soon grew violent, but the mob retreated without Ali's pledge after his wife Fatima pleaded with them. During this time period Madelung says that Ali could see nothing but hypocrisy in Abu Bakr's tears and his claims to love Muhammad's family.

Abu Bakr soon placed a boycott on Ali and also on Muhammad's clan, the Banu Hashim, to abandon their support for Ali. The boycott was successful, and those who initially supported Ali gradually turned away and pledged their allegiance to Abu Bakr. Most likely, Ali did not pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr until his wife Fatima died within six months of her father Muhammad. In Shia sources, the death (and miscarriage) of the young Fatima are attributed to an attack on her house to subdue Ali at the order of Abu Bakr. Sunnis categorically reject these allegations. After Fatima's death and in the absence of popular support, Ali is said to have relinquished his claims to the caliphate for the sake of the unity of a nascent Islam, In contrast with Muhammad's lifetime, Ali is believed to have retired from public life during the caliphates of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, which has been interpreted as a silent censure of the first three caliphs.

Umar later criticized the Saqifa affair, "The oath of allegiance for Abu Bakr was a falta [i.e., a precipitate and ill-considered deal], but God averted the evil of it." This was a reference to the exclusion of the majority of the Muhajirun and particularly Muhammad's kin, whose participation was vital for a legitimate outcome at the Saqifa. Possibly because of its questionable legal authority, Umar also warned Muslims against ever following the example of Saqifa. Similar concerns about the legitimacy of the Saqifa are raised by contemporary authors. Some have further criticized the Saqifa affair as a "backroom deal" and a "coup" which was heavily influenced by the pre-Islamic tribal politics. The evil of the falta which, Umar thought, had been averted by God would erupt later in the form of the First Fitna, suggests Madelung.

Rashidun caliphs
Abu Bakr adopted the title of khalifat rasul Allah, commonly translated as the successor to the messenger of God. This was shortened to khalifa, from which the word caliph arose. Abu Bakr's tenure as the caliph lasted just over two years. Though he was appointed caliph by those at Saqifah, Abu Bakr designated Umar as his successor, reportedly against the advice of the Quraysh elders. Umar was instrumental in the ascension of Abu Bakr to the caliphate.

In 644, on his deathbed, Umar tasked a committee of six with choosing the next caliph among themselves. The committee included Ali, Uthman ibn Affan, and his brother-in-law, Abd al-Rahman ibn Awf. The tie breaker vote belonged to Abd al-Rahman, Othman's brother-in-law, and it has been suggested that the makeup and configuration of this committee left a small possibility for the nomination of Ali.

In the final showdown, Abd al-Rahman offered the caliphate to Ali on two conditions: first, he should follow the way of the Quran and the Sunnah of Muhammad, and second, he should follow the example of Abu Bakr and Umar. Ali is said to have accepted the first condition but declined the second one, adding that he would rely only on his own judgment in the absence of any precedent from the Quran or the Sunnah. Abd al-Rahman then presented the same conditions to Uthman who readily accepted them. It has been suggested that Abd al-Rahman was well aware of Ali's disagreements with the past two caliphs and that Ali, known for his sincerity, would have inevitably rejected the second condition.

Uthman's reign was marked with widespread accusations of nepotism. Under Uthman's rule, his tribe, the Banu Umayya, is said to have regained its pre-Islamic influence and power. Uthman installed his relatives, including his cousin, Muawiya, to rule the Islamic territories. According to Glassé, Uthman was assassinated by rebels in 656, in a climate of growing dissension against the despotism of the Banu Umayya.

Shortly after the assassination of Uthman, the caliphate was offered to Ali, who declined the position at first. Aslan attributes Ali's initial refusal to the polarizing impact of Uthman's murder on the community, while Durant writes that, "[Ali] shrank from drama in which religion had been displaced by politics, and devotion by intrigue." In the absence of any serious opposition and urged particularly by the Ansar and the Iraqi delegations, Ali eventually accepted the first pledges of allegiance in the Prophet's Mosque in Medina. It appears that Ali personally did not force anyone for a pledge though the strong pro-Ali atmosphere of Medina might have exerted some pressure on his opponents. In particular, Sa'ad ibn Abi Waqqas, Abdullah ibn Umar and Usama ibn Zayd refused to acknowledge the authority of Ali. Talha and Zubayr, both companions of Muhammad with ambitions for the high office, likely gave their pledges though they later broke their oaths, claiming that they had pledged their allegiance to Ali under public pressure. There is, however, less evidence for violence here than in Abu Bakr's election, according to Madelung.

Ali inherited the internal problems of Uthman's reign. Immediately after his election, Ali quelled an armed insurrection led by Aisha, a widow of Muhammad, and Talhah and Zubayr. Afterwards, Uthman's governor of Syria, Muawiya, declared war on Ali and a long and indecisive civil war ensued. The first four caliphs are referred to by the Sunni as the Rashidun (rightly-guided) caliphs, though only Ali is recognized by the Twelver Shia.

Later successions
Abu Bakr's view that the caliphate should remain within the Quraysh tribe persisted in later generations. According to Cooperson, however, this definition of the caliphate had its costs. First, it facilitated the rise of the Umayyads who, despite being of the Quraysh, were among the most powerful enemies of Muhammad before their late conversion to Islam. Their rise to power marginalized both the Muhajirun and the Ansar, and reduced the caliphate, as an institution, to no more than a worldly kingship. Second, according to Cooperson, was the exclusion of Ali, who, insofar as the kinship of the Quraysh with Muhammad was concerned, had an arguably better claim to the caliphate. Ali eventually became caliph, but not in time to stop the rise of the Umayyads.

After the assassination of Ali in 661, his eldest son, Hasan, was elected caliph in Kufa. Muawiya then marched on Kufa with his army, whereas Hasan's military response to Muawiya suffered defections in large numbers, largely facilitated by military commanders and tribal chiefs who had been swayed to Muawiya's side by promises and offers of money. Under attack from Muawiya and after a failed assassination attempt on his life, a wounded Hasan ceded the caliphate to Muawiya in 661. Notably, under their agreement, it is said that Muawiya appointed Hasan as his successor. However, Hasan died in 669 at the age of forty six, before Muawiya. It is believed that he was poisoned at the instigation of Muawiya.

Before his death in 680, Muawiya arranged for the succession of his son, Yazid, who is often remembered as a debaucher who openly violated the Islamic norms. In particular, Muawiya summoned a council (shura) of the Muslim elite in 676 and won their support through flattery, bribes, and threats. Notably, Muawiya was unsuccessful in securing the oath of allegiance from Hasan's younger brother, Husayn, who, after Muawiya's death, publicly denounced Yazid's legitimacy. In 680, after surrounding them in Karbala and cutting off their access to water for multiple days, Yazid's forces slaughtered Husayn, alongside his family and his small group of supporters. The women and children were taken prisoner and marched to Kufa and then Damascus, some of whom are said to have perished from mistreatment. The tragic death of Husayn and his supporters marked the Second Fitna, which finalized the schism between the Sunni and the Shia. The latter consider Husayn as their third Imam.

The succession subsequently transformed under the Umayyads from an elective/appointed position to being effectively hereditary within the family.

Past prophets
The Quran, as the central religious text of Islam, does not explicitly identify a successor to Muhammad, though it grants key privileges to the families of the past prophets. After the past prophets, their descendants become the spiritual and material heirs to them in the Quran. The scripture describes how the past prophets prayed for (and were granted) the divine favor to be succeeded by their close kin in kingship, in rule, in wisdom, in imamate, etc. From Noah to Jesus, Madelung notes that the prophets of the Israelites were all descendants of one family. In particular, Solomon inherited from David both his kingship and his prophetic wisdom in verses 27:16 and 21:78, and John the Baptist inherited from Zechariah in verses 19:5-6.

Abraham
Verse 2:124 includes the exchange, "[God] said [to Abraham], 'I shall make you an imam for the people.' He said: 'And also of my off-spring?' [God] said: 'My compact will not comprise the evil-doers.'" God's pledge in this verse thus extends to just descendants of Abraham. Elsewhere in verse 29:27, God praises Abraham, "And We gave him Isaac and Jacob and placed among his progeny prophethood and the Book."

Moses
In verses 20:29-32, Moses asks God to include his brother Aaron in his prophetic mission. His prayer is answered by God, as evidenced by verses 20:36-42, 25:35, and 28:35. Aaron thus becomes the chosen associate of Moses in his prophetic mission and in revelation, as described in verses 21:48-9 and 2:248.

Muhammad
Similar to the past prophets, Muhammad's family has an eminent position in the Quran. Elevating them above common Muslims, a state of purity is bestowed upon Muhammad's kin in verses 8:41, 59:7, the verse of purification 33:33, and the verse of mawadda 42:23 by some accounts. The praise in the verse of purification and the privileges in the verse of mubahala are specific to Muhammad's daughter Fatima, her husband Ali, and their two sons Hasan and Husayn, by Shia and some Sunni accounts. These five are known as the Ahl al-Bayt (lit. 'people of the household') in Shia, though various Sunni interpretations are broader and often include Muhammad's wives as well.

Insofar as the Quran reflects the views of Muhammad, Madelung concludes, he could have not seen his succession differently from the earlier prophets or considered Abu Bakr as his natural successor. This is because, he argues, the succession of prophets is a matter that is settled by divine selection in the Quran. In particular, God selects their successors from their own families, whether or not those successors become prophets themselves. Jafri and Abbas develop similar arguments.

Verse of wilaya
Also known as the verse of wilaya, verse 5:55 of the Quran is translated by The Study Quran as, "Your protector [wali] is only [innama] God, and His Messenger, and those who believe, who perform the prayer and give alms [zakat] while bowing down." Some Sunni exegeses link this verse to the hostility of the Jewish tribes in Medina, while Shia and some Sunni sources consider this verse a specific reference to the occasion where Ali gave away his ring to a beggar while he was bowing in worship. In particular, Nasr et al. suggest that the frequent association of this verse with Ali in early Sunni sources strongly support its authenticity.

For the Shia, wilaya in this verse is interpreted as spiritual authority. The verse of wilaya thus describes Ali as the rightful authority over the believers, after God and Muhammad, and underlines his right to succeed Muhammad as the spiritual and political leader of the Muslim community. Alternatively, those Sunni authors who acknowledge a link between this verse and Ali reject any Shia implications. For instance, the Sunni al-Razi holds that wilaya in this verse is nothing more than friendship or mutual support. In response, Shia authors note that the particle innama (lit. 'only') confines the wilaya in this verse to God, Muhammad, and those believers who gave alms while praying. As such, wilaya in this verse has a different significance than mere friendship, similar to that in verse 33:6.

Hadith of warning
Verse 26:214 of the Quran tasked Muhammad with presenting Islam to his relatives, some three years after his first divine revelation (c. 617 CE). One of the two versions of how Muhammad attempted to do this is that he invited his relatives to a meal. After the meal, Muhammad introduced his relatives to Islam and asked for their support, "And which of you will assist me in this cause and become my brother, my trustee and my successor among you." Muhammad's cousin Ali, the youngest among them, was the only relative who offered his assistance to Muhammad, who then declared, "This [Ali] is my brother, my executor, and my successor among you, so listen to him and obey." This was the account of the Sunni al-Tabari (d. 923) and the proto-Shia Ibn Ishaq (d. 767), among others, though some Sunni reports do not include Muhammad's response to Ali or replace it with his rejection of Ali's offer. Muhammad's announcement was met with ridicule from Abu Lahab, Muhammad's uncle and his foe, and the guests dispersed.

Views
Rubin writes that Ali's response to Muhammad's call contrasts the remainder of his tribe, the Quraysh. He adds that the early appointment of Ali as Muhammad's heir in this version supports Ali's right to succeed Muhammad, a central tenet of Shia Islam. Momen is of the same opinion. According to the Shia exegete Tabatabai, Muhammad made it clear that the first relative to accept his invitation would become his successor and inheritor. Lastly, Rubin notes that the association of this account with verse 26:214 implies divine authorization. Burton comments that this banquet "won for [Muhammad] a proselyte worth a thousand sabers in the person of Ali, son of Abu Talib."

Hadith of position
Hadith of position is a biblical analogy in favor of Ali that appears in canonical Sunni and Shia sources, including Sahih al-Bukhari and Kitab al-kafi. Muhammad might have repeated this analogy on multiple occasions, though the Hadith of Position is most frequently linked to the Expedition of Tabuk in 9-10/630-631 against the Byzantine Empire. Muhammad is said to have left Ali in charge at Medina before leaving on his longest expedition. But when rumors spread that Ali was left behind because he was a burden to Muhammad, he left Medina and caught up with Muhammad, who reassured him, "Are you not content, Ali, to stand to me as Aaron stood to Moses, except that there will be no prophet after me?"

Status of Aaron
By divine designation, Aaron was the associate of Moses in his prophetic mission and in revelation. In Hebrew Bible, Aaron also performs miracles and is entrusted with the esoteric knowledge of the scripture. Of similar importance therein is the divine prerogatives bestowed upon Aaron's descendants.

Shia views
Shia authors have used the Hadith of Position to argue for the special status of Ali and his designation as the successor of Muhammad. For instance, the Shia al-Mufid writes that this hadith invested in Ali all the privileges which Aaron had received from Moses except prophethood. In particular, Ali was the deputy of Muhammad just as Aaron was the deputy of Moses, which implies that Ali was the rightful successor to Muhammad.

Sunni views
Despite its Shia coloring, the Hadith of Position nevertheless remains prominent in Sunni sources as one of the most important pieces of evidence supporting the finality of Muhammad in the chain of prophets. In response to the Shia claims, Sunni scholars argue that the Hadith of Position is irrelevant to Muhammad's succession because Aaron died before Moses. The Shia Sharif al-Murtaza counters that had Aaron survived Moses, the former would have surely succeeded the latter. The Shia al-Kulayni adds that Moses' successor Joshua later designated the progeny of Aaron to succeed him instead of his own or Moses'. Al-Kulayni suggests that Joshua did so because it was the divine choice.

Ghadir Khumm
Shortly before his death in 632, Muhammad performed the Hajj rituals in Mecca. In his sermon in Mecca and again later at the Ghadir Khumm by some accounts, he alerted Muslims about his impending death. After the Hajj, Muhammad set off on the return journey from Mecca to Medina, accompanied by a large number of pilgrims. On the way, Muhammad called the Muslim caravan to a halt at the Ghadir Khumm before the pilgrims parted to go their separate ways.

After the noon prayer, Muhammad delivered a sermon in which he famously said, "He whose I am, Ali is his ." Muhammad repeated this three or four more times, as reported in Musnad Ibn Hanbal, a canonical Sunni source. By some Shia and Sunni accounts, he then continued, "O God, befriend the friend of Ali and be the enemy of his enemy," which might have been the standard formula for pledging allegiance at the time, used later both by Ali and his son Hasan during their caliphates. As reported in Musnad Ibn Hanbal, Muhammad's companion Umar congratulated Ali after the sermon and told him, "You have now become of every faithful man and woman."

Historicity
The historicity of the Ghadir Khumm is rarely disputed within the Muslim community, as its recorded tradition is "among the most extensively acknowledged and substantiated" in classical Islamic sources, even as the statements made at the event remain open to interpretation. In Shia and some Sunni sources, two verses of the Quran are also associated with the Ghadir Khumm: the Verse of Ikmal (5:3), which announces the perfection of Islam, and the verse of Tabligh (5:67), which urges Muhammad to fulfill his divine instructions.

In the context of the Ghadir Khumm, the polysemous Arabic word  is interpreted along sectarian lines. Shia sources interpret this word as meaning 'leader' or 'ruler', while Sunni accounts of this sermon tend to offer little explanation or substitute the word ' (of God, lit. 'friend of God') in place of '.

Shia views
Shia Muslims view the Ghadir Khumm as Muhammad's most public announcement of Ali's succession. Supporting the Shia interpretation, the Shia Amini has compiled multiple volumes of Sunni and Shia historical documents about the Ghadir Khumm.

Sunni views
Among Sunni Muslims, the Ghadir Khumm is not associated with the succession to Muhammad. Instead, the event is often connected with Ali's earlier campaign in Yemen, where he is said to have strictly imposed the Islamic guidelines for a fair distribution of booty. The Sunni Ibn Kathir suggests that the Ghadir Khumm sermon was simply intended as a public declaration of Muhammad's love and esteem for Ali in response to criticism of some soldiers. Accepting this explanation as such, that Muhammad equated Ali with himself in an extraordinary announcement at the Ghadir Khumm still provides a strong basis for the Shia claims, suggests Jafri.

For the Sunni, it is also unimaginable that most companions would act wrongly and ignore a clear appointment of Ali at the Ghadir Khumm. The Shia response is that numerical strength cannot be a factor in a tribal community, adding that majority does not imply legitimacy in the Qur'an.

Congregational prayer
The most notable event that supports Abu Bakr's right to succession reportedly occurred towards the end of Muhammad's life. According to Walker, too ill to lead the prayers himself, Muhammad instructed Abu Bakr to take his place, ignoring concerns that he was too emotionally delicate for the role. In particular, when Muhammad entered the prayer hall one morning during the fajr prayer, Abu Bakr attempted to step back to let Muhammad lead the prayer but the prophet allowed Abu Bakr to continue.

Authenticity
Jafri finds the related traditions often contradictory, many of which are attributed by Ibn Sa'd to Abu Bakr's daughter Aisha, whose rivalry and dislike for Ali and Fatima are well-documented. Mentioning three different versions of the story, Madelung defers to Caetani, who considers it fabricated. Shia authors similarly dispute the authenticity of these reports, adding that Muhammad had earlier instructed his companions, including Abu Bakr and Umar, to leave Medina on a military campaign against the Byzantines under Usama ibn Zayd.

Significance
Sunni authors often refer to this event as evidence of Abu Bakr's right to succeed Muhammad, though their accounts of the event might be colored by later Shia-Sunni polemics. Ayoub adds that the prayer argument was likely not a consideration in the early caliphal debate. Lecomte writes that Muhammad respected Abu Bakr but considers the prayer story inconclusive because it does not formally relate to the political leadership of the community. Walker notes that this and similar traditions suggest friendship and trust but are hardly related to succession because Muhammad regularly delegated this task and other positions of authority to others. For the same reason, Shaban goes further and assigns no significance to the prayer story.

Hadith of pen and paper
Shortly before his death, Muhammad asked for writing materials, so that he would "write something, after which you will not be led into error," as reported in the canonical Sunni collection Sahih al-Bukhari. Of those present at Muhammad's bedside, this report continues that his companion Umar protested, "The illness has overwhelmed the prophet. We have the book of God [ Quran] and that is enough for us." In some reports by the Sunni Ibn Sa'd, Umar instead says that Muhammad is raving. A quarrel then broke out at Muhammad's bedside, with some suggesting that his orders should be followed and some siding with Umar to disregard the prophet's request. The argument is said to have saddened Muhammad, who asked them to leave and did not write anything. Some sources write that Muhammad instead gave oral recommendations, which have been recorded differently by various authors.

Views
The disobedience to Muhammad in this incident has been downplayed by some Sunni scholars, whereas others view this incident as a missed opportunity to formally designate Abu Bakr as the successor. Ibn Kathir goes further, claiming that Muhammad had publicly appointed Abu Bakr before his final illness. In contrast, the incident is viewed as a calamity and a missed opportunity to designate Ali in Shia sources.

In relation to this episode, Madelung quotes an exchange between Ibn Abbas and Umar in which the latter claimed that Muhammad intended to name Ali as his successor and that he prevented this out of the conviction that Arabs would revolt against Ali. A tradition to this effect is also cited by the Shia Tababatai. This view has been echoed by Hazleton.

Sunni
The general Sunni belief is that Muhammad had not chosen anyone to succeed him, instead reasoning that he had intended for the community to decide on a leader amongst themselves. However, some specific hadiths are used to justify that Muhammad intended Abu Bakr to succeed, but that he had shown this decision through his actions rather than doing so verbally.

In Sunni Islam, the election of a caliph is ideally a democratic choice made by the Muslim community. As this is difficult to enforce, Sunni Islam recognizes as caliph anyone who seizes power, as long as he is from the Quraysh, the tribe of Muhammad. Even the latter is not a strict requirement, given that Ottoman Caliphs had no familial relation to the Quraysh tribe. In Sunni Islam, caliphs are not viewed as infallible and can be removed from the office if their actions are deemed sinful. At the same time, obedience to a caliph is often regarded as a religious obligation even if the caliph is unjust. Conversely, a judge would be considered competent solely on the basis of his appointment by the government.

Historically, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali are regarded by the Sunni as the most righteous of their generation, with their merit being reflected in their caliphate. The subsequent caliphates of the Umayyads and the Abbasids, while not ideal, are seen as legitimate because they complied with the requirements of the law, kept the borders safe and the community united. While the Umayyads and the Abbasids are viewed as kingships, the Sunni was more willing than others to accommodate these rulers, regardless of their legitimacy and mode of government, and in so doing the Sunni made most of Islamic history their own.

Twelver
Twelver Shia is the largest branch of the Shia Islam, representing about 85% of the Shia population.

In the Twelver Shia view, after a prophet's death, it is deemed as essential that a divinely-appointed successor would guide the faithful towards the righteous path. Without a divinely-appointed successor, according to the Twelver Shia, the prophetic mission and God's favor to the faithful would both remain incomplete. At the same time, in Shia theology, this designated successor would not rule by force if the faithful withhold their support.

The Twelver Shia view is that, similar to the past prophets in the Quran, the succession to Muhammad was settled by divine appointment, rather than by consensus. Moreover, as with the past prophets in the Quran, God chose Muhammad's successor from his family. A number of verses in the Quran and some hadiths might be linked to the prominent position of Muhammad's family in Islam, including the verse of purification, verse of mubahala, and verse of mawadda in the Quran, and the well-attested Hadith of the Thaqalayn and the Hadith of the Ark.

Appointment of Ali
The view advanced by the Shia is that Muhammad announced his cousin and son-in-law, Ali, as his rightful successor shortly before his death at the Event of Ghadir Khumm and also earlier in his prophetic mission at the Event of Dhul Asheera. After the announcement at Ghadir Khumm, there is evidence that the Verse of Ikmal was revealed to Muhammad, declaring the completion of God's favor to the faithful. Though it is believed that Ali considered himself as the rightful successor of Muhammad, he is said to have turned down proposals to forcefully pursue his claims to the caliphate after the appointment of Abu Bakr, for the sake of preserving the unity of Islam in a critical time.

Ali's merits
Ali's distinctions are amply attested to in Islamic sources. In Mecca, a young Ali is said to have been the first male to embrace Islam and the only person who offered his support when Muhammad first introduced Islam to his relatives. Later, he facilitated Muhammad's safe escape to Medina by risking his life as the decoy. In Medina, Ali sworn a pact a brotherhood with Muhammad and later took the hand of Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah, in marriage. Ali commonly acted as Muhammad's secretary in Medina and served as his deputy during the Expedition of Tabuk. Saluted as Asadullah (literally, "the lion of God"), Ali has been viewed as the most able warrior in Muhammad's army and the two were the only Muslim men who represented Islam against a Christian delegation from Najran. Ali's role in the collection of the Quran, the central text of Islam, is deemed as one of his key contributions. When, following the revelation of the surah at-Tawbah, Abu Bakr was sent to Mecca to give an ultimatum to disbelievers, there is strong evidence that Muhammad might have sent out Ali to take over this responsibility.

Ali's role
In Shia theology, while direct revelation ended with Muhammad's death, Ali remained the righteous guide towards God, similar to the successors of the past prophets in the Quran. After Muhammad's death, Ali inherited his divine knowledge and his authority to correctly interpret the Quran, especially its allegorical and metaphorical verses (mutashabihat). Often cited here is a well-attested hadith, attributed to Muhammad, which reads as, "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate."

Ali's infallibility
In Shia Islam, where he is regarded as the righteous guide after Muhammad, Ali is believed to be infallible. Ali is one of the Ahl al-Kisa, who are addressed by the sahih Hadith of Kisa and the related verse of purification in the Quran, which includes the passage, "Indeed God desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification."

Imamate
According to the Shia, Ali succeeded Muhammad as the first Imam after Muhammad, that is, the righteous guide towards God and His vicar on the earth. This divine authority, known as imamate, is central to the Shia belief and appears in multiple verses of the Quran. In particular, verse 21:73 reads as

"We made them Imams, guiding by Our command, and We revealed to them the performance of good deeds, the maintenance of prayers, and the giving of zakat, and they used to worship Us."In the Twelver Shia belief, since the time of the first prophet, Adam, the earth has never remained without an Imam, in the form of prophets and their divinely-appointed successors. After Ali, imamate was passed down to his son, Hasan, through divinely-inspired designation (nass). In Shia theology, at any time, there is only one Imam and his successor, if alive, is called the silent Imam. After Hasan's death, his brother, Husayn, and nine of his descendants are regarded as Imams, the last of whom, Mahdi, went into occultation in 260 AH (874 CE), compelled by the hostility of his enemies. His advent is awaited by all Muslims, though different sects hold different views about Mahdi. In his absence, the vacuum in the Shia leadership is partly filled by marjaiyya and, more recently, wilayat al-faqqih, i.e., guardianship of the Islamic jurist.

Zaydi
According to Jafri, it is widely reported that the fourth Shia Imam, Zayn al-Abidin, designated his son, Muhammad al-Baqir, as the next Imam before his death. Zayd, a half-brother of Muhammad al-Baqir, also asserted a claim to imamate on the basis that the title can belong to any descendant of Hasan or Husayn who is learned, pious, and revolts against the tyrants of his time. On this basis, his followers, known as Zaydis, consider Zayd as the rightful successor of the fourth Shia Imam, though the fourth Imam himself did not revolt against the Umayyads and instead adopted a policy of quiescence.

Initially, Zayd's activist approach gained him a large following. However, as he increasingly compromised with the traditionalists, some of Zayd's supporters are said to have returned to Muhammad al-Baqir. According to Jafri, a related incident is when two Kufan Shias asked Zayd if the first Shia Imam, Ali, was an Imam before he resorted to the sword. When Zayd refused to answer this question, the two broke their allegiance with him and went back to Muhammad al-Baqir. Eventually, Zayd took up arms against the Umayyads in 122 AH and was killed in Kufa by the forces of Caliph Hisham.

One faction of the Zaidiyyah, called the Batriyya, attempted a compromise between Sunni and Shia by accepting the legitimacy of the Sunni caliphs while maintaining that they were inferior to Ali. Imamat al-Mafdul (literally, "imamate of the inferior") is the belief that, while Ali was better suited to succeed Muhammad, the reigns of Abu Bakr and Umar must be acknowledged since Ali did not revolt against them.

Ibadi
The Ibadi, an Islamic school distinct from Sunni and Shia, believe that leadership of the Muslim community is not something which should be decided by lineage, tribal affiliations or divine selection, but rather through election by leading Muslims. They do not view their leaders as infallible. In particular, if a leader fails to maintain a legitimate government in accordance with the Islamic law, it is the duty of the population to remove him from power. The Rashidun Caliphs are seen as rulers who were elected in a legitimate fashion and, in particular, Abu Bakr and Umar are viewed as righteous leaders. However, Uthman is viewed as having committed grave sins during the latter half of his rule and was deserving of death. Ali is also similarly understood to have lost his mandate.

The Ibadi have been labeled by some scholars as the "moderate Kharijites." Their first Imam was Abd Allah ibn Wahb al-Rasibi, who led the Kharijites after their withdrawal from Ali's camp. Other Imams include Abu Ubaidah Muslim, Abdallah ibn Yahya al-Kindi, and Umar ibn Abdul Aziz.

Shia books

 * Al-Murāja'āt: A Shī'i-Sunni Dialogue by Sayyid 'Abdul-Husayn Sharafud-Dīn al-Mūsawi, 2001, Ansariyan Publications: Qum, Iran.
 * Peshawar Nights by Sultanu'l-Wa'izin Shirazi, 2001, Ansariyan Publications: Qum, Iran.
 * Ask Those Who Know by Muhammad al-Tijani, 2001, Ansariyan Publications: Qum, Iran.
 * To be with the Truthful by Muhammad al-Tijani, 2000, Ansariyan Publications: Qum, Iran.
 * The Shi'a: The Real Followers of the Sunnah by Muhammad al-Tijani, 2000, Ansariyan Publications: Qum, Iran.
 * Imamate and Leadership by Mujtaba Musavi Lari
 * |Imamate: The Vicegerency of the Prophet by Rizvi, S. Saeed Akhtar, (Tehran: WOFIS, 1985) pp. 57–60.
 * Fara'id al-Simtayn by the Shia scholar Ibrahim b Muhammad b Himaway al Juwayni who died in 1322 AD/ 722 AH. (The Scale of Wisdom by M. Muhammadi Rayshahri) (Al-Tawhid Vol 8, Sazman-i Tablighat-i Islami (Tehran, Iran), p170)

Sunni books

 * |The Sealed Nectar by Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri, 2002, Darussalam Publications.
 * |Sahih Al-Bukhari Translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, 1997, Darussalam Publications
 * Peshawar Nights the Art of Fictional-Narration by Abu Muhammad al-Afriqi
 * |The Life of Muhammad by Muhammad Husayn Haykal
 * Prophet Muhammad and The First Muslim State by Mohammad Mahmoud Ghali
 * Abu Bakr As-Siddeeq by Muhammad Rajih Jad'an
 * The Biography of Abu Bakr As Siddeeq by Ali al-Sallabi

title: Succession to Muhammad


text:
Kraepelin

Kraepelin is a surname. Notable people with the surname include:

 * Emil Kraepelin (1856–1926), German psychiatrist
 * Karl Kraepelin (1848–1915), German naturalist

title: Kraepelin


text:
Talk:Succession to Muhammad

Improving the presentation of minority views
I'm going to work on this article over the course of the next few weeks to improve the presentation of Shia views. I'll discuss any major changes in this section. Albertatiran (talk) 06:56, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Among other things, I also plan to replace all instances of Shiite with Shia. The latter can be used as a noun or an adjective according to Google Dictionary. Albertatiran (talk)

When discussing the hadith of position, the sentence "...having died during Moses' lifetime after being punished by God for the latter's mistakes" from [Miskinzoda, 2015] contradicts the Islamic belief that prophets, including Moses, were infallible (even though different sects of Islam have slightly different interpretations of infallibility). This view about Moses likely has Jewish roots. I have a difficult time finding a source for this view in the Islamic literature and Miskinzoda does not provide a reference for her claim. I'd like to remove this sentence. Albertatiran (talk) 14:27, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

In the subsection Supporting Abu Bakr's Succession, the sentence "Among Sunni sources, Abu Bakr's succession is justified by narrations of Muhammad displaying the regard with which he held the former" is not cited. Every subsection here corresponds to a single incident and it might be better to change the title of the subsection and focus on Abu Bakr's congregational prayer. Unlike the other subsections, the title of this subsection is clearly biased. Albertatiran (talk) 09:52, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

There are a few primary sources in the text that I'd hope to replace or remove, e.g., Musnid Ahmed, Tabari. Also to be removed: Restatement of the history of Islam and Muslims. Another to-do item is to move all sources to a separate bibliography section at the end of the article. Lastly, I'd like to copy-edit the text to improve its neutrality and readability, e.g., by removing instances of "indeed" and adding "according to" and such. Albertatiran (talk) 11:39, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

New edits
Collected the bibliography at the end of the article, added perhaps a dozen new reliable sources, copy-edited the article to improve neutrality and clarity. These edits are too many to summarize here but, I think, it's very clear that the revised article is better-sourced and less biased. I don't think any of the edits are controversial but, if there are any concerns, please discuss them here first. Albertatiran (talk) 19:51, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Oke
@Hut pagle 119.155.185.40 (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Socialogy
Fit to by my HS 119.155.185.40 (talk) 13:26, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Its ok 119.155.185.40 (talk) 13:26, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Succession to Muhammad


text: User talk:68.215.80.66

title: User talk:68.215.80.66


text:
Category:Rafita asteroids

See parent category for proper sortkey usage instructions.

title: Category:Rafita asteroids


text:
Guaracha

The guaracha is a genre of music that originated in Cuba, of rapid tempo and comic or picaresque lyrics. The word has been used in this sense at least since the late 18th and early 19th century. Guarachas were played and sung in musical theatres and in working-class dance salons. They became an integral part of bufo comic theatre in the mid-19th century. During the later 19th and the early 20th century the guaracha was a favourite musical form in the brothels of Havana. The guaracha survives today in the repertoires of some trova musicians, conjuntos and Cuban-style big bands.

Early uses of the word
Though the word may be historically of Spanish origin, its use in this context is of indigenous Cuban origin. These are excerpts from reference sources, in date order: A Latin American carol "Convidando esta la noche" dates from at least the mid 17th century and both mentions and is a guaracha. It was composed or collected by Juan Garcia de Zespedes, 1620–1678, Puebla, Mexico. This is a Spanish guaracha, a musical style popular in Caribbean colonies. "Happily celebrating, some lovely shepherds sing the new style of juguetes for a guaracha. In this guaracha we celebrate while the baby boy is lost in dreams. Play and dance because we have fire in the ice and ice in the fire."
 * The Gazeta de Barcelona has a number of advertisements for music that mention the guaracha. The earliest mention in this source is #64, dated 11 August 1789, where there is an entry that reads "...otra del Sr. Brito, Portugues: el fandango, la guaracha y seis contradanzas, todo en cifra para guitarra...". A later entry #83, 15 October 1796, refers to a "...guaracha intitulada Tarántula...".
 * "Báile de la gentualla casi desusado" (dance for the rabble, somewhat old-fashioned). Leal comments on this: "The bailes de la gentualla are known on other occasions as bailes de cuna where people of different races mix. The guaracha employs the structure soloist–coro, that is to say, verses or passages vary between the chorus and the soloist, improvisation occurs, and references made to daily matters, peppered with crafty witticisms."
 * "Una canción popular que se canta a coro... Música u orquesta pobre, compuesta de acordeón o guitarra, güiro, maracas, etc". (a popular song, which is sung alternately (call & response?)... humble music and band &c).
 * "Cierto género musical" (a particular genre of music).

These references are all to music, but whether of the same type is not quite clear. The usage of guaracha is sometimes extended, then meaning, generally, to have a good time. A different sense of the word means jest or diversion.

Emergence of the Guaracha
On January 20, 1801, Buenaventura Pascual Ferrer published a note in a newspaper called "El Regañón de La Habana", in which he refers to certain chants that "run outside there through vulgar voices". Between them he mentioned a "guaracha" named "La Guabina", about which he says: "in the voice of those that sings it, tastes like any thing dirty, indecent or disgusting that you can think about…" At a later time, in an undetermined date, "La Guabina" appears published among the first musical scores printed in Havana at the beginning of the 19th century.

According to the commentaries published in "El Regañón de La Habana", we can conclude that those "guarachas" were very popular within the Havana population at that time, because in the same previously mentioned article the author says: "…but most importantly, what bothers me most is the liberty with which a number of chants are sung throughout the streets and town homes, where innocence is insulted and morals offended… by many individuals, not just of the lowest class, but also by some people that are supposed to be called well educated…". Therefore, we can say that those "guarachas" of a very audacious content, were apparently already sung within a wide social sector of the Havana population.

Buenaventura Pascual Ferrer mentions also that at the beginning of the 19th century up to fifty dance parties were held in Havana every day, where the famous "Guaracha" was sung and danced among other popular pieces.

Guaracha as a dance
There is little evidence as to what style of dance was originally performed to the guaracha in Cuba. Some engravings from the 19th century suggest that it was a dance of independent couples, that is, not a sequence dance such as the contradanza. The prototype independent couples dance was the waltz (early 19th century Vals in Cuba). The first creole dance form in Cuba known for certain to be danced by independent couples was the danzón. If the guaracha is an earlier example, this would be interesting from a dance history point of view.

Guarachas in bufo theatre
During the 19th century, the bufo theatre, with its robust humour, its creolized characters and its guarachas, played a part in the movement for the emancipation of slaves and the independence of Cuba. They played a part in criticising authorities, lampooning public figures and supporting heroic revolutionaries. Satire and humour are significant weapons for a subjugated people.

In 1869 at the Teatro Villanueva in Havana an anti-Spanish bufo was playing, when suddenly some Spanish Voluntarios attacked the theatre, killing some ten or so patrons. The context was that the Ten Years' War had started the previous year, when Carlos Manuel de Céspedes had freed his slaves, and declared Cuban independence. Creole sentiments were running high, and the Colonial government and their rich Spanish traders were reacting. Not for the first or the last time, politics and music were closely intertwined, for musicians had been integrated since before 1800. Bufo theatres were shut down for some years after this tragic event.

In bufos the guaracha would occur at places indicated by the author: guaracheros would enter in coloured shirts, white trousers and boots, handkerchiefs on their heads, the women in white coats, and the group would perform the guaracha. In general the guaracha would involve a dialogue between the tiple, the tenor and the chorus. The best period of the guaracha on stage was early in the 20th century in the Alhambra theatre in Havana, when such composers as Jorge Anckermann, José Marín Varona and Manuel Mauri wrote numbers for the top stage singer Adolfo Colombo. Most of the leading trova musicians wrote guarachas: Pepe Sánchez, Sindo Garay, Manuel Corona, and later Ñico Saquito.

Lyrics
The use of lyrics in theatre music is common, but their use in popular dance music was not common in the 18th and 19th centuries. Only the habanera had sung lyrics, and the guaracha definitely predates the habanera by some decades. Therefore, the guaracha is the first Cuban creole dance music which included singers.

The Havana Diario de la Marina of 1868 says: "The bufo troupe, we think, has an extensive repertory of tasty guarachas, with which to keep its public happy, better than the Italian songs." The lyrics were full of slang, and dwelt on events and people in the news. Rhythmically, guaracha exhibits a series of rhythm combinations, such as with.

Alejo Carpentier quotes a number of guaracha verses that illustrate the style:
 * Mi marido se murió,
 * Dios en el cielo lo tiene
 * y que lo tenga tan tenido
 * que acá jamás nunca vuelva.

 * (My husband died,
 * God in heaven has him;
 * May he keep him so well
 * That he never comes back!)

 * No hay mulata más hermosa.
 * más pilla y más sandunguera,
 * ni que tenga en la cadera
 * más azúcar que mi Rosa.

 * (There's no mulatta more gorgeous,
 * more wicked and more spicy,
 * nor one whose hips have got
 * more sugar than my Rosa!)

Guaracha in the 20th century
In the mid-20th century the style was taken up by the conjuntos and big bands as a type of up-tempo music. Many of the early trovadores, such as Manuel Corona (who worked in a brothel area of Havana), composed and sung guarachas as a balance for the slower boleros and canciónes. Ñico Saquito was primarily a singer and composer of guarachas. The satirical lyric content also fitted well with the son, and many bands played both genres. Today it seems scarcely to exist as a distinct musical form, except in the hands of trova musicians; in larger groups it has been absorbed into the vast maw of salsa.

Singers who could handle the fast lyrics and were good improvisors were called guaracheros or guaracheras. Celia Cruz was an example, though she, like Miguelito Valdés and Benny Moré, sung almost every type of Cuban lyric well. A better example is Cascarita (Orlando Guerra), who was distinctly less comfortable with boleros, but brilliant with fast numbers. In modern Cuban music so many threads are interwoven that one cannot easily distinguish these older roots. Perhaps in the lyrics of Los Van Van the topicality and sauciness of the old guarachas found new life, though the rhythm would have surprised the old-timers.

Among other composers who have written guarachas is Morton Gould – the piece is found in the third movement of his Latin American Symphonette (Symphonette No. 4) (1940). Later in the 1980s Pedro Luis Ferrer and Virulo (Alejandro García Villalón) sought to renovate the guaracha, devising modern takes on the old themes.

Guaracha in Puerto Rico
During the 19th century, many Bufo Theater Companies arrived in Puerto Rico from Cuba, and they brought with them the guaracha. At a later time the guaracha was adopted in Puerto Rico and became part of the Puerto Rican musical tradition, such as the "Rosarios Cantaos", the Baquiné, the Christmas songs and the Children's songs.

The guaracha is a style of song-dance which is also considered music for the Christmas "Parrandas" and concert popular music. Several modern genres, such as rumba and salsa, are considered to be influenced by the guaracha. The guaracha has been cultivated during the 20th century by Puerto Rican musicians such as Rafael Hernández, Pedro Flores, Bobby Capó, Tite Curet, Rafael Cortijo, Ismael Rivera, Francisco Alvarado, Luigi Teixidor and "El Gran Combo".

Some famous guarachas are Hermoso Bouquet, Pueblo Latino, Borracho no vale, Compay póngase duro, Mujer trigueña, Marinerito and Piel Canela.

title: Guaracha


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