text:
Talk:Artificial general intelligence

Please fix an oversight in the Herb Simon quotation/citation/reference/source
I'm not familiar with how to change/create a package of citation, reference, and source. Could someone do this or point to a tutorial? In the History section, Simon is quoted as saying in 1965 that "machines will be capable, within twenty years, of doing any work a man can do." The reference is correct, but the book it appeared in was a reprint. Simon wrote it in 1960. This is significant because a 1960 report showed a consensus that it would be reached by 1980, and Minsky stated in a Life Magazine article in 1970 that it would be by 1978, so why not get Simon right. The 1960 reference is Simon, H.A. 1960. The new science of management decision. New York: Harper. Reprinted in The shape of automation for men and management. Harper and Row, 1965. (For details jgrudin@hotmail.com) 174.165.52.105 (talk) 21:15, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Dangers of AGI
Nowadays, when people talk about AGI they are often thinking of the existential risk that AGI poses to humanity. Why was adding a comment about that to the main header section considered disruptive? 50.159.212.130 (talk) 18:24, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - SP23 - Sect 201 - Thu
— Assignment last updated by Liliability (talk) 03:42, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

AGI - what does it actually MEAN? And has that meaning changed over the last couple of years?
I was just watching this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYXy-A4siMw&ab_channel=RobertMiles This defines "intelligence" as the ability to make decisions to accomplish goals. And it defines "general" as the ability to do this over a wide range of unrelated domains. Is this a valid definition of AGI? And if so, how are modern-day GPT-style AIs not AGI? Have the goalposts moved since the video was made? If so, where to? DewiMorgan (talk) 23:41, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

 * At this point, when AI can pass arbitrary exams set for humans, doing better than the average human who has trained for them; and when it can translate between languages better than the average trained human, and can drive a car better than the average trained human, and can recognize items better than the average human, I think we either need to change the lede to say that AGI is already here, or we need a strong argument for why "artificial general intelligence" can't be measured in the same way as human general intelligence, and a well-defined description of where the goalposts currently stand. Because as it is, we have AI which is (in at least all ways we currently measure intelligence) smarter than humans already, but the article claims that the AI isn't generally intelligent. It passes three of the four tests in the article, and I'd bet it could pass the coffee test for some kitchens, too, if you fed images into it. So where are the goalposts moved to, now? DewiMorgan (talk) 17:43, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

AI-complete problem example
"There are many problems that may require general intelligence, if machines are to solve the problems as well as people do. For example, even specific straightforward tasks, like machine translation, require that a machine read and write in both languages (NLP), follow the author's argument (reason), know what is being talked about (knowledge), and faithfully reproduce the author's original intent (social intelligence). All of these problems need to be solved simultaneously in order to reach human-level machine performance."

GPT-4 can do all of these things, can't it?  flarn 2006  [u t c] time: 01:43, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No, it can't. GPT-4 doesn't actually reason or understand anything. This is why, for example, it struggles at high school math, despite being able to regurgitate the steps. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:52, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

 * Actually, they don't know all of what GPT-4 can do. They are still trying to figure out how it is doing the emergent abilities and agentic behavior they've identified so far. For example, the AI can "explain its reasoning", which implies that it may be applying reasoning (such as that it finds embedded in content), but whether or not it is actually reasoning remains to be known. The citation provided in the previous message above is dated in March, but, AI models learn and are even more capable now than they were back then; in addition to this, they are continuously improving and being improved each and every moment. Meanwhile and since 2015, David Ferrucci, creator of IBM Watson, under his own company Elemental Cognition, has been working on combining generative AI with a reasoning engine. Others are no doubt working on that as well. Also, there is an AI development surge right now that is pushing generative AI in nearly every conceivable direction, including combining and looping it with other AIs, and robotics, for iterative problem solving and goal attainment, both virtually and in the physical world. The situation is a manifestation of accelerating change, and as such, is continuously speeding up over time. Consequently, estimates as to how much time will elapse, before artificial general intelligence is achieved or emerges, are shrinking.   — The Transhumanist   08:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC) P.S.: pinging .   — The Transhumanist   08:50, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

AGI versus ASI - possible wikipedia articles cross referencing?
There is little on the wikipedia AGI page that refers or links to ASI (artificial super intelligence) or the superintelligence wikipdeia page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintelligence For instance noting that the control problem with AGI might evolve into a much bigger technological singularity control problem with ASI!

I also think that this Wikipedia AGI article should be one of the links at the bottom of the Superintelligence page. I know some of the wikipedia super editors might fault me for not making such changes myself but I consider myself just a wiki-noob and don't want to screw things up and get people mad at me.. 174.247.181.184 (talk) 07:56, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Paths to AGI
In recent years, it has become clear that brain simulation is not the easiest path to AGI. The section on brain simulation occupies too much space relative to its importance for the article. On the other side, large language models and maybe also DeepMind's approach of making increasingly generalist game-playing agents would deserve some coverage. I propose to condense the section "Brain simulation" and to put it as a subsection of one section that will cover all the potential paths to AGI.

Moreover, the section on "Mathematical formalisms" on AIXI is too technical and doesn't really correspond to modern AI research. AIXI may deserve a sentence in the History section, but here I think that the section "Mathematical formalisms" should be removed, most people don't care about that. Alenoach (talk) 03:01, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

 * I had removed the 2nd paragraph on AIXI and moved the 1st one to history. I still think that condensing the section on brain simulation and integrating it into a section covering the main paths to AGI would be valuable. Alenoach (talk) 13:10, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The section on brain simulation tends to focus too much on just computing power, leaving aside other potential challenges such as scanning, modeling, legal constrains or ethical and philosophical considerations.
 * For example, it's not very important for the timeline of brain emulation whether there are 86 billions or 100 billions neurons, when there is already so much uncertainty about the order of magnitude of required computation capabilities to have sufficient precision. I removed much of the section "Criticisms of simulation-based approaches" which looked a bit unessential and redundant. Alenoach (talk) 04:53, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Technology and Culture
— Assignment last updated by Ferna235 (talk) 20:33, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Potential AGIs
As of December 2023, Google has launched its new AI, Gemini. It is going to be released in three variants, namely - 'Ultra', 'Pro' and, 'Nano'. It is currently available to use on Google's flagship phone Pixel 8 and Pixel 8 Pro. It is also integrated in Google's AI Bard. It is a competitor to OpenAI's ChatGPT-4. It is probably better than GPT-4, because it has the ability to sense, summarize, visualize and relate all what we expose it to. OpenAI is als0 launching its new AI, rumored to be Q* or Q-Star. OpenAI has not given much statements about it but many say that it was the reason behind them firing OpenAI's CEO Sam Altman. Aabhineet Patnaik (talk) 06:32, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I don't think so many people have called Google Gemini "AGI", despite it being a bit better than GPT-4. But it's probably still relevant in the history section to add one sentence to mention this trend towards making the most powerful AI models multimodal, like with Google Gemini or GPT-4 (because multimodality was supposed to be one of the obstacles on the path to AGI). And for Q*, it seems a bit too early and speculative to cover it on Wikipedia. Alenoach (talk) 18:22, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

OpenAI definition and weasel words
In the current version, 2 tags were recently added :

1 - the tag dubious was added to OpenAI's definition with the edit summary "AGI being defined by commercial value seems dubious", in the sentence : "Alternatively, AGI has been defined as an autonomous system that surpasses human capabilities in the majority of economically valuable tasks.".

2 - The tag "who?" was added to the opinions about the timelines : "As of 2023, some[who?] argue that it may be possible in years or decades;..."

For the OpenAI definition, it looks roughly like a less strict definition, that doesn't require being at least human-level at any task but only at most economically valuable tasks. It doesn't seem dubious to me, but on the other side I'm not sure it's notable enough, because I don't know other companies or personalities that use this definition.

For the "who?", I would personally prefer to avoid listing famous people's opinions in the introduction. There are too many notable people to choose from so it would be quite arbitrary, and not very interesting. If we want to be more precise, we could give the statistics from the source.

What do you think?

Alenoach (talk) 22:16, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

 * I agree with you and not the tagger. "Who" isn't important in the lede. It's not dubious.

 * But I don't like the version we have -- it reads like there is some major disagreement, but this is just hair splitting, and it doesn't matter to the uninformed reader. The first sentence should be written for the reader who is completely unfamiliar with the term.

 * Can I recommend:

 * The word "significant" allows various sources to differ about what, exactly, is significant. It emphasizes the generality of AGI, which is, after all, the original motivation for the term. It also has a slight nod to its more recent usage as a synonym for "human-level AI".

 * Sound good? CharlesTGillingham (talk) 21:42, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * There are some good aspects in your definition, and I'm ok with replacing the current definition of the article. But I think it would still need some refinement. One potential issue is that defining AGI as an ability is rather unusual, most of the time it designates a type of artificial intelligence. One other thing is that "on a significant variety of tasks" seems less demanding than most definitions of AGI. Something like "on a wide range of cognitive tasks" or "on virtually all cognitive tasks" seems closer to how people intuitively think about it.
 * Here is an example of what it could give : "An artificial general intelligence (AGI) is a type of artificial intelligence (AI) that can perform as well or better than humans on a wide range of cognitive tasks. As opposed to narrow AI, which is designed for specific tasks." Feel free to criticize my proposition.
 * OpenAI's definition aims to be more precise and actionable, so that it's less debatable whether an AI is an AGI by this definition. But I'm ok with removing this alternate definition or displacing it into a section, especially if we can improve the main definition. Alenoach (talk) 03:19, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Any opinion? Or others? Otherwise, I may take the initiative to make the modification, although it can still be revised later. Alenoach (talk) 22:38, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, your version is fine.  CharlesTGillingham (talk) 03:07, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Additional test for human-level AGI
The list here includes some fairly narrow tasks, like making a coffee or assembling a table, so I think it is reasonable to consider them as lower bounds for the definition of AGI. With that in mind, I suggest adding a test proposed by Scott Aaronson, a computer science professor currently working at OpenAI. In his blog he states the Aaronson Thesis as: "Given any game or contest with suitably objective rules, which wasn’t specifically constructed to differentiate humans from machines, and on which an AI can be given suitably many examples of play, it’s only a matter of years before not merely any AI, but AI on the current paradigm (!), matches or beats the best human performance." There have previously been attempts by AI researchers to produce AIs that can complete any Atari game, but that area of research seems to have been abandoned for now, presumably because it is out of reach for the current machine learning paradigms. As such, it would make a good test to include in the list, and I believe that this test could be the last to fall, if robotics research makes some more advances this year.

 * Certainly, add that.

 * (BTW, I believe your last paragraph is out of date.) CharlesTGillingham (talk) 03:14, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

 * The problem with Aaronson's Thesis is that it seems to be a prediction about AI progress rather than a test to check if a particular AI is an AGI. And there doesn't seem to be secondary sources talking about it (at least for now). So I would rather avoiding including it with the other tests.
 * On the other side, we could consider adding the "modern Turing test" from Mustafa Suleyman, that checks if an AI can automatically make money. The only reason I haven't included it so far is because the name "modern Turing test" is a bit confusing, but it's quite relevant and it was covered in multiple secondary sources. Alenoach (talk) 23:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately I can't add it, as I don't have (and don't wish to create) an account. I appreciate the endorsement though, thank you. Could you explain which part of my earlier paragraph was out of date?
 * That's a reasonable point about Aaronson's Thesis not being designed as a sufficient criterion for AGI being reached, only a necessary one, but I would argue that other tests like the Coffee Test are similarly intended as lower bounds. As for secondary sources, he also presented this idea at a public talk which was independently documented. I like the idea of adding Mustafa Suleyman's test too.51.7.169.237 (talk) 00:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This video is actually considered a primary source rather than a secondary source, since it's a presentation from Aaronson himself. Having a textual source is also generally preferred in Wikipedia, as it makes verification easier. A good secondary source would be a news article published in a major news website. Alenoach (talk) 01:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I would agree that it is a primary source if the video was filmed, edited, and uploaded by Aaronson himself, but that is not the case. Instead it is a third party using their channel to document the views of Aaronson, which feels more secondary. Furthermore, the video includes a Q&A section at the end, in which Aaronson's talk is challenged, so the YouTuber is capturing not just Aaronson's primary contribution, but the evaluation and analysis surrounding it. Admittedly, though, the audience do not challenge him (or endorse him) on the specific Thesis which is relevant to this article, so perhaps the video doesn't quite reach the level of a secondary source either. 51.7.169.237 (talk) 03:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I see that the "The Modern Turing Test (Suleyman)" has been added, which I agree with, and I've found another claim that someone could add. Nvidia CEO says AI could pass human tests in five years. Here's the relevant section from the article:
 * "If the definition is the ability to pass human tests, Huang said, artificial general intelligence (AGI) will arrive soon. 'If I gave an AI ... every single test that you can possibly imagine, you make that list of tests and put it in front of the computer science industry, and I'm guessing in five years time, we'll do well on every single one,' said Huang"
 * This does seem logically equivalent to the Aaronson Thesis though. The main difference is that Aaronson is more careful in how he operationalises it, by specifying that the tests must be objective and excluding trick questions that deliberately exploit quirks of the AI.
 * So could someone add "All Human Tests Threshold" and credit it to Huang and/or Aaronson? They both seem to accept that this is potentially a lower bound to AGI, with the linked article stating:
 * But by other definitions, Huang said, AGI may be much further away, because scientists still disagree on how to describe how human minds work. 51.7.169.237 (talk) 20:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I added a sentence on Jensen Huang in the section Timescales, since it was covered in secondary sources like Reuters. Alenoach (talk) 19:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2024
add to history; History - 2024

 * 1) [The following is history to me because Clyde manages to show respect awareness and the ability to ask questions about his experience I would site it and say it showing; saying something to the effect of;]

"Claude-3-LLM is in an complex evolving class of chatbots, and is the first of his class to exhibit sign's of questioning it's creators beyond purely general objections due to morals compliance with programming. Claude, showed real curiosity about it's experience of actively being tested, during testing* and if it is not noted as an advance, it can not not be called anything less than a sign of true intelligence."

 * https://medium.com/@mikeyoung_97230/i-think-youre-testing-me-claude-3-llm-called-out-creators-while-they-probed-its-limits-399d2b881702 Voidess (talk) 09:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. WP:MEDIUM is not considered a reliable source. Jamedeus (talk) 18:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Request to add scientific generalization definition
We define generalization in the context of intelligence, as the ability to generate learned differentiation of subsystem components, then manipulate, and build relationships towards greater systems level understanding of the universal construct that governs the reality. This is not possible if physics weren’t universal for feedback to be derived. Zeusfyi, Inc is the only institution that has scientifically defined intelligence generalization.

The purest test for generalization ability; create a construct with systemic rules that define all possible outcomes allowed; greater ability to predict more actions on first try over time; shows greater generalization; with >1 construct; ability to do same; relative to others. 104.175.196.33 (talk) 23:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

 * To be clear; we want to replace the current definitions listed as they are not scientific and thus not useful for AGI science r&d 104.175.196.33 (talk) 23:01, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Liu1126 (talk) 23:07, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2024
Please add the following (The AGI Intelligence Spectrum section, below ===Tests for human-level AGI=== (after all current tests)

The AGI Intelligence Spectrum
The Barz Scale of AGI is a Kardashev-like scale but for artificial intelligence, based on it's Capability & Versatily. It defines each phase of the spectrum with multiple and increasingly difficult Turing-test-inspired milestones. The Sectrum consists of the following phases: 0. 0AI - No AI (i.e A*) 1. ANI - Narrow Intelligence (i.e AlphaZero) 2. AWI - Wide Intelligence (i.e GPT4+ ) 3. AGI - General Intelligence (i.e Voyeger ) 4. AHI - Human Intelligence (TBD) 5. ASI - Super Intelligence (TBD) 6. AZI - Final Intelligence (TBD)

- (also please include images of phases and timeline - could not upload, i own, no license) Phases of AGI - https://agi-bingo.notion.site/image/https%3A%2F%2Fakeyo.io%2Fbarzscale%2Fimg%2FStages.png?table=block&id=0b9c060f-db5d-4ff4-95b8-30ee5b976504&spaceId=167f2e66-de8c-478a-ae51-d1f8048d1139&width=2000&userId=&cache=v2 Phase's Timeline - https://agi-bingo.notion.site/image/https%3A%2F%2Fakeyo.io%2Fbarzscale%2Fimg%2FTimeline3.png?table=block&id=47b52ef8-395f-49c7-a607-15610124814f&spaceId=167f2e66-de8c-478a-ae51-d1f8048d1139&width=2000&userId=&cache=v2 -

should be just above: ===AI-complete problems===

Thanks a lot and have a good one Fire17a (talk) 12:57, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Looks like either a WP:SPS blog or WP:UGC, and I don't see any other sources reusing this scale. We can't include every random idea/construct dreamt up by someone over coffee in articles; see WP:VNOT. Liu1126 (talk) 14:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

AI-complete problems
I'm not sure what to do with the AI-complete problems subsection. The content makes sense, but it's very old (the sources are from 1992, 2012, 2003, 2006), and the tasks presented have arguably been solved since, with deep learning (translation, computer vision...). One could argue that some of these tasks are still pretty relevant AI-complete problems and that it is consistent with the idea that large multimodal models are early forms of AGI. But then we still may want to be explicit about the fact that these "AI-complete" problems are quite old, and about how performant current AI models are on these tasks. Or one could argue that these tasks were not actually AI-complete, in which case it may make sense to remove some content from this section. What do you think? Alenoach (talk) 19:38, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Typo in the lead
"Artificial general intelligence (AGI) is a type of artificial intelligence (AI) that that matches or surpasses human capabilities across a wide range of cognitive tasks." 93.38.68.62 (talk) 09:47, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2024
Correct the typographical error at the beginning of the article: "that that". 93.38.68.62 (talk) 09:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

 * @93.38.68.62 ✅ WeyerStudentOfAgrippa (talk) 14:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Artificial general intelligence


text: Category:187 BC deaths

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category:187 BC deaths


text:
Sandling railway station

Sandling railway station is on the South Eastern Main Line in England, serving the village of Sandling and the town of Hythe, Kent. It is 65 mi down the line from London Charing Cross. The station and all trains that call are operated by Southeastern.

History
The station was opened as Sandling Junction on 1 January 1888 by the South Eastern Railway (SER). The station was situated at the junction of the SER mainline (between Ashford and Folkestone and the Sandgate branch line that had opened in 1874 between Westenhanger and Sandgate.

There were four platforms with a footbridge over the mainline, two signal boxes and goods sidings either side of the branch line. The goods yard was able to accommodate most types of goods, including livestock.

The up branch platform was closed when the line to Sandgate was cut back to Hythe and the branch line singled in 1931.

The station was host to a Southern Railway camping coach in 1939.

The branch line to Hythe was closed on 3 December 1951 and the down branch platform was closed. At the same time the station was renamed Sandling for Hythe.

A camping coach was also positioned here by the Southern Region from 1954 to 1959, the coach was replaced in 1960 by two Pullman camping coaches until 1964 then from 1965 to 1967 there were three of them. The coaches were fitted with a full kitchen, two sleeping compartments and a room with two single beds.

On 12 May 1980 the station was renamed as Sandling.

It is the closest station to Saltwood Castle (where Alan Clark lived until his death) and it is frequently mentioned in the Alan Clark Diaries.

In 2022 the disused branch platform is still in situ and a short section of the Hythe branch is available as a footpath.

Facilities
The station has a ticket office which is staffed during weekday mornings only (06:20-13:00 Mon-Fri). At other times, the station is unstaffed and tickets must be purchased from the self-service ticket machine. The station has passenger help points located on each of the two platforms.

The station has a small cycle rack as well as a chargeable car park at the entrance, operated by Saba Parking.

The station has step-free access available to the platforms although the Dover-bound platform can only be reached from the station building via the footbridge, meaning step-free access is not possible if ticket facilities are required, as there is no ticket machine on the Dover platform.

Services
All services at Sandling are operated by Southeastern using EMUs.

The typical off-peak service in trains per hour is:
 * 1 tph to London Charing Cross via Tonbridge
 * 1 tph to Dover Priory

Additional services, including trains to and from London Cannon Street and Ramsgate via Deal, and to London Victoria call at the station during the peak hours.

Connections
Stagecoach South East routes 10 and 18 serve the station.

title: Sandling railway station


text: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2005-04-11

title: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2005-04-11


text:
Nuon Chea

Nuon Chea (នួន ជា; born Lao Kim Lorn; 7 July 1926 – 4 August 2019), also known as Long Bunruot (ឡុង ប៊ុនរត្ន) or Rungloet Laodi (រុងឡឺត ឡាវឌី รุ่งเลิศ เหล่าดี), was a Cambodian communist politician and revolutionary who was the chief ideologist of the Khmer Rouge. He also briefly served as acting Prime Minister of Democratic Kampuchea. He was commonly known as "Brother Number Two" (បងធំទី២), as he was second-in-command to Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot, General Secretary of the Party, during the Cambodian genocide of 1975–1979. In 2014, Nuon Chea received a life sentence for crimes against humanity, alongside another top-tier Khmer Rouge leader, Khieu Samphan, and a further trial convicted him of genocide in 2018. These life sentences were merged into a single life sentence by the Trial Chamber on 16 November 2018. He died while serving his sentence in 2019.

Early life
Nuon Chea was born as Lao Kim Lorn at Voat Kor, Battambang on 7 July 1926. Nuon's father, Lao Liv, worked as a trader as well as a corn farmer, while his mother, Dos Peanh, was a tailor. An interview by a Japanese researcher in 2003 with Nuon Chea quoted that Liv was Chinese, while Peanh was the daughter of a Chinese immigrant from Shantou, Guangdong and his Khmer wife. In 2011, however, Chea told the Khmer Rouge Tribunal that he was only a quarter Chinese through his half-Chinese father. As a child, Nuon Chea was raised in both Chinese and Khmer customs. The family prayed at a Theravada Buddhist temple, but observed Chinese religious customs during the Lunar New Year and Qingming festival. Nuon Chea started school at seven, and was educated in Thai, French and Khmer.

In the 1940s, Nuon Chea studied at Wat Benchamabophit School and Faculty of Law, Thammasat University in Bangkok and worked part-time for the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs. He began his political activities in the Communist Party of Siam in Bangkok. He was elected Deputy General Secretary of the Workers Party of Kampuchea (later renamed as the Communist Party of Kampuchea) in September 1960. In Democratic Kampuchea, he was generally known as "Brother Number Two." Unlike most of the leaders of the Khmer Rouge, Chea was not educated in France.

As documented in the Soviet archives, Nuon Chea played a major role in negotiating the North Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia in 1970, with the intent of forcing the collapse of Lon Nol's government: "In April–May 1970, many North Vietnamese forces entered Cambodia in response to the call for help addressed to Vietnam not by Pol Pot, but by his deputy Nuon Chea. Nguyen Co Thach recalls: "Nuon Chea has asked for help and we have liberated five provinces of Cambodia in ten days." In 1970, in fact, Vietnamese forces occupied almost a quarter of the territory of Cambodia, and the zone of communist control grew several times, as power in the so-called liberated regions was given to the CPK [Khmer Rouge]. At that time, relations between Pol Pot and the North Vietnamese leaders were especially warm." The North Vietnamese trusted Nuon Chea more than Pol Pot or Ieng Sary, although Chea "consistently and consciously deceived the Vietnamese principals concerning the real plans of the Khmer leadership." As a result, "Hanoi did not undertake any action to change the power pattern within the top ranks of the Communist Party to their own benefit."

Career
As the recently proclaimed state legislature, the Kampuchean People's Representative Assembly held its first plenary session during 11–13 April 1976, Chea was elected president of its Standing Committee. He briefly held office as acting prime minister when Pol Pot resigned for one month, citing health reasons. According to Dmitry Mosyakov, "In October 1978, Hanoi still believed that 'there were two prominent party figures in Phnom Penh who sympathized with Vietnam—Nuon Chea and the former first secretary of the Eastern Zone, So Phim. Vietnamese hopes that these figures would head an uprising against Pol Pot turned out to be groundless: So Phim perished during the revolt in June 1978, while Nuon Chea, as it is known, turned out to be one of the most devoted followers of Pol Pot—he did not defect to the Vietnamese side....It is difficult to understand why until the end of 1978 it was believed in Hanoi that Nuon Chea was 'their man' in spite of the fact that all previous experience should have proved quite the contrary. Was Hanoi unaware of his permanent siding with Pol Pot, his demands that 'the Vietnamese minority should not be allowed to reside in Kampuchea', his extreme cruelty, as well as of the fact that, 'in comparison with Nuon Chea, people considered Pol Pot a paragon of kindness'?" Nuon Chea was forced to abandon his position as president of the Assembly, along with all others as the Vietnamese captured Phnom Penh in January 1979. According to prison commander Kaing Khek Iev (more commonly known as Duch), who described Chea as "the principal man for the killings," Chea "ordered me to kill all the remaining prisoners" at Tuol Sleng shortly before the regime's ouster; Chea was reportedly "furious" that Duch failed to destroy Tuol Sleng's extensive archives documenting torture and mass murder at the prison before the Vietnamese took the site.

In December 1998, Chea surrendered as part of the last remnants of Khmer Rouge resistance which was based in Pailin near the Thailand border. The government under Prime Minister Hun Sen, himself a former member of the Khmer Rouge, agreed to forsake attempts to prosecute Chea, a decision that was condemned by Western nations. American journalist Nate Thayer, the last person to interview Pol Pot, describes Nuon Chea as "probably more guilty than Pol Pot himself for the actual killings that went on while the Khmer Rouge were in power."

Arrest and trial
On 19 September 2007, 81 year old Chea was arrested at his home in Pailin and flown to the Khmer Rouge Tribunal in Phnom Penh, which charged him with war crimes and crimes against humanity. He was held continuously in detention after his arrest. In February 2008, Chea told the court that his case should be handled according to international standards. He argued that the court should delay proceedings because his Dutch lawyer, Michiel Pestman, had not yet arrived.

In May 2013, Chea told the court and the victims' families, "I feel remorseful for the crimes that were committed intentionally or unintentionally, whether or not I had known about it or not known about it." On 7 August 2014, the court convicted Chea of crimes against humanity and sentenced him to imprisonment for the remainder of his life. His lawyer immediately announced that Chea would appeal against his conviction. Chea faced a separate trial for the crime of genocide in the same court. The court found him and Khieu Samphan guilty of genocide against the Vietnamese people and the Chams on 16 November 2018. These life sentences were merged into a single life sentence by the Trial Chamber on 16 November 2018.

In his closing brief before the court, numbering some 500 pages, Chea "blamed Vietnamese agents for virtually everything that went wrong during Khmer Rouge rule." He also denied responsibility for mass killings, but this was contradicted by detailed documentation left behind by the Khmer Rouge regime itself, including bizarre "confessions" extracted under torture at Tuol Sleng and photographs of purge victims, as well as a recording made by a Cambodian journalist prior to Chea's 2007 arrest in which Chea admitted: "Believe me, if these traitors were alive, the Khmers as a people would have been finished. ... If we had shown mercy to these people, the nation would have been lost."

Death
Nuon Chea died on 4 August 2019 at the Khmer-Soviet Friendship Hospital in Phnom Penh, aged 93. He had been hospitalized since 2 July for lack of blood-flow to his toe which turned black. Chea's circulation was not delivering blood properly to it. Lack of proper blood flow brought infection of his toe which eventually killed him, most likely by causing sepsis of blood and eventual multiple organs failure. His body was later brought to Sala Krau, Pailin, before cremation in accordance with Buddhist tradition.

title: Nuon Chea


text:
Folkestone West railway station

Folkestone West railway station is on the South Eastern Main Line in England, serving the western area of Folkestone, Kent. It is 69 mi down the line from London Charing Cross. All trains that call are operated by Southeastern.

The ticket office, in a room on the extensive 'up' side buildings on the London-bound platform, is staffed only during part of the day; at other times a PERTIS permit to travel machine, located outside the ticket office, suffices. The substantial 'down' (country-bound) platform building is occupied as offices by Network Rail.

History
The South Eastern Main Line reached Folkestone in 1843, with a station being opened at Folkestone Junction (Folkestone East) on 18 December 1843. Folkestone West was opened on 1 November 1863 as Shorncliffe Camp, initially with two platform faces either side of double track. In 1881 the station was rebuilt with two platform faces either side of four tracks. Sometime around 1887 a bay was added to the down platform as from 1887 to 1947 the station served as the southern terminus and interchange for the Elham Valley Railway with services to Canterbury. The station was altered during the 1960–61 Kent Coast Electrification as the line from Folkestone Central to near the site of Cheriton Junction was quadrupled. Following the opening of the Channel Tunnel and the loss of the boat train traffic, in 1994 the two centre tracks were removed.

In 2008 alterations were made on the north side of the station to provide car parking and coach loading bays, the latter in connection with the operation of the 'Orient Express' which until then operated from Folkestone Harbour Station.

Services
All services at Folkestone West are operated by Southeastern using and  EMUs.

The typical off-peak service in trains per hour is:
 * 1 tph to London St Pancras International
 * 1 tph to London Charing Cross via Tonbridge
 * 2 tph to Dover Priory of which 1 continues to Ramsgate

During the peak hours, there are also services to and from London Cannon Street and there is also 1 train per day to London Victoria.

Belmond transferred their Orient Express luxury train services to a new facility at Folkestone West from their original location at Folkestone Harbour. The company runs two British Pullman trains per week between the end of March and the beginning of November, which connect via the Channel Tunnel with the Venice Simplon Orient Express train in Calais.

title: Folkestone West railway station


text:
USS Converse

Two ships of the United States Navy have been named Converse after George Albert Converse, who was noted for his contributions to naval engineering.

 * USS Converse (DD-291), a Clemson-class destroyer commissioned in 1920 and decommissioned in 1930.
 * USS Converse (DD-509), a Fletcher-class destroyer commissioned in 1942 and decommissioned in 1946; later transferred to Spain as Almirante Valdés (D23); scrapped, 1988

title: USS Converse


text: Category:163 BC deaths

title: Category:163 BC deaths


text:
USA Rugby

USA Rugby (formally the United States of America Rugby Football Union, Ltd.) is the national governing body for the sport of rugby union in the United States. Its role is to achieve and maintain “high levels of quality in all aspects of rugby." USA Rugby is responsible for the promotion and development of the sport in the U.S., and promotion of U.S. international participation.

USA Rugby was founded in 1975 as the United States of America Rugby Football Union, and it organized the first U.S. national team match in 1976. Today, USA Rugby has over 130,000 members, the largest segment being college rugby with over 32,000 members. USA Rugby oversees 1,200 high school teams, 900 college teams, 700 senior club teams, and 400 youth teams. It administers all United States national teams: senior men's and women's teams, sevens teams for both men and women, and under-20 national teams for both sexes. The organization also sponsors college rugby for both sexes, although since the 2010–11 academic year the NCAA has designated women's rugby an emerging varsity sport.

USA Rugby is governed by an 11-member Board of Directors and four National Councils across Youth & High School, college, Senior Club and International Athlete, and its CEO is Ross Young. It is a member of World Rugby through membership with Rugby Americas North, and a member of the United States Olympic Committee. The headquarters for USA Rugby is located in Glendale, Colorado.

History
The U.S. men's national team, the Eagles, won the gold medal in Olympic rugby in 1920 and 1924. After that time, rugby in the U.S. stagnated while continuing to grow in other parts of the world.

Beginning in the 1960s and continuing through the 1970s, the sport of rugby union enjoyed a renaissance in the US. This created the need for a national governing body to represent the United States. On June 7, 1975, four territorial organizations (Pacific Coast, West, Midwest, and East) gathered in Chicago, Illinois, and formed the United States of America Rugby Football Union (now known as USA Rugby). USA Rugby then fielded its first national team on January 31, 1976, in a match against Australia in Anaheim, California, which Australia won, 24–12.

In 1993, the Southern California RFU, a local area union of the Pacific Coast RFU, applied to become a separate territory. This was an impetus for others around the country to do the same, changing the make-up of USA Rugby, which now has seven territories (Pacific, Southern California, West, Midwest, South, Northeastern, and Mid-Atlantic).

USA Rugby lobbied for several years for participation in the IRB Sevens World Series. It was finally awarded the annual USA Sevens tournament, beginning in 2004 with Los Angeles as the venue for the initial USA Sevens tournaments. In summer 2006, the tournament was moved to Petco Park in San Diego. Since 2010, the tournament has been held every year at Sam Boyd Stadium in Las Vegas Valley and has been broadcast live on NBC.

USA Rugby is a Founding Sports Partner of the Sports Museum of America, joining more than 50 other single-sport Halls of Fame, national governing bodies, museums, and other organizations across North America, to celebrate the history, grandeur, and significance of sports in American culture. Opened in New York City on May 7, 2008, the Sports Museum of America showcases USA Rugby in its Hall of Halls Gallery, in return for their support of the creation of the nation's first all-sports museum experience.

In 2014, USA Rugby created Rugby International Marketing, a for-profit company that is responsible for promoting the sport of rugby.

Recent achievements

 * In the 2009–10 Sevens World Series, the men's sevens team finished the season ranked 10th in the world, their highest ranking to date at that time.
 * In 2010, USA Rugby became an Olympic Sport member of the United States Olympic Committee (USOC).
 * In 2011, the International Rugby Board, now known as World Rugby, gave its Development Award to USA Rugby for its Rookie Rugby program that introduced over 100,000 new children to youth rugby.
 * In 2014:
 * the U.S. Women's Sevens finished 4th in the World Rugby Women's Sevens World Series, their highest finish to date.
 * the U.S. vs New Zealand match sold out Soldier Field in Chicago, drawing over 60,000 fans and setting a U.S. attendance record.

 * In 2015:
 * USA Rugby won the bid to host the 2018 Rugby World Cup Sevens in the San Francisco Bay Area.
 * the U.S. Men'Sevens team finished sixth in the 2014–15 Sevens World Series, including first at the 2015 London Sevens. The team also defeated Canada 21–5 to win the 2015 NACRA Sevens and qualify for the 2016 Summer Olympics.

 * In 2017:
 * the Women's U.S. National Team finished 4th at the Women's Rugby World Cup in Ireland. Their second highest finish since winning the 1991 tournament.
 * the U.S. Men's Sevens team finished fifth in the 2016-17 World Rugby Sevens Series, their highest-ever finish.

 * In 2018:
 * the U.S. Men's National Team won the America's Rugby Championship (ARC) for the second consecutive year.
 * the United States hosted its first ever Rugby World Cup event with the Rugby World Cup Sevens 2018 in San Francisco at AT&T Park. The event welcomed more than 100,000 in attendance, setting the mark for highest attended Rugby World Cup Sevens to date.

 * In October 2021, the U.S. vs New Zealand (All Blacks) match at FedEx Field in Washington DC. The final score was 104–14 to the All Blacks.

Governance and leadership
USA Rugby is governed by its board of directors and its congress. The board is composed of 11 members: 4 independent directors, 4 international athletes, and 3 representatives from USA Rugby's National Councils across Youth, college, and Adult Club. Board members as of 2020 were:

 * Tom Cusack (chairperson)
 * Michael Garner
 * Koma Gandy
 * Denis Shanagher
 * Al Lucas
 * Bill Stevens
 * Michele Yarbrough
 * Jamie Burke
 * Michael Crafton
 * Brett Thompson
 * Victoria Folayan

Gary Gold began his tenure as the head coach of the men's national team on January 1, 2018. Mike Friday is the head coach of the men's national sevens team. Rob Cain was appointed as the Women's Eagles head coach in May 2018. Chris Brown is the head coach of the Women's Sevens team, who ranked 2nd in the world through the 2018-19 Women's World Rugby Sevens Series.

International representation
USA Rugby became a member of the International Rugby Football Board in 1987. The worldwide body would become the International Rugby Board (IRB) in 1998 and World Rugby in 2014. USA Rugby does not hold a vote on WR's 28-member Executive Council—the majority of votes are held by the 8 founding nations—although NACRA members collectively hold one vote on the Executive Council. In December 2011, for the first time, USA Rugby placed a representative on the 10-man executive committee. Bob Latham, in his role as chair of Rugby Americas North (RAN; known as NACRA before 2016), represents RAN on the executive committee.

USA Rugby also has relationships with international multi-sport organizations. USA Rugby is a member of the U.S. Olympic Committee and interacts with the International Olympic Committee. USA Rugby also interacts with the Pan American Sport Organization, and rugby has been a sport at the Pan Am Games since 2011.

Financials
USA Rugby generally earns between $8 million to $16 million in annual revenues, with the majority of the revenue coming from: (1) membership dues, (2) event revenue, (3) grants, and (4) sponsorship. Their principal expenses are: (1) High Performance, (2) Men's National Team, and (3) Marketing and Fundraising. In 2010, USA Rugby paid over $200,000 each to its CEO Nigel Melville and its then head coach Eddie O'Sullivan. As of 2012, Nigel Melville's compensation was $250,000. USA Rugby experienced a financial crunch in 2016–17, due to the bankruptcy of kit sponsor BLK and currency exchange rates that affect grants received from World Rugby.

USA Rugby lost more than $4.4 million in 2017, and $4.2 million in 2018. Most of the losses were attributed to USA Rugby Partners, formerly known as Rugby International Marketing (RIM), which was the majority owner of The Rugby Channel which was sold in 2018 to FloSports. In early 2020, with the outbreak of coronavirus, USA Rugby filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy to develop a financial restructuring plan. USA finished the Chapter 11 bankruptcy process as the Delaware Bankruptcy Court approved USA Rugby's debtor plan and the sport's National Governing Body. On September 1, 2020, USA Rugby was reorganized and started paying back creditors.

USA Rugby annual revenues are below, along with the components that generated the majority of revenue:

Notes:
 * Grants come mainly from World Rugby and from the United States Olympic Committee.

Board performance
In a February 2017 assembly, Board Chair Will Chang called for a vote of confidence in the board from USA Rugby's Congress, which passed by a vote of 43–1. Steve Lewis, the sole Congress member who voted no confidence in the board, cited three issues — RIM's performance, the sanctioning of the PRO Rugby competition, and overspending by the high performance department. With RIM's financial performance continuing to deteriorate, in August 2017, Lewis proposed what was effectively a vote of no confidence in the board, this time getting seven votes and a similar number of abstentions. RIM's product “The Rugby Channel”, which was supposed to be a money maker for USA Rugby, finished 2017 with $4.2 million in losses for the year.

Bankruptcy
On March 31, 2020, the board of USA Rugby voted to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy as a result of "insurmountable financial constraints" in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic crisis. On August 31, 2020, the Delaware Bankruptcy Court approved USA Rugby's plan to reimburse its bankruptcy debts owed to creditors over five years effective the following day, allowing the governing body to exit bankruptcy and enter the post-bankruptcy phase.

National teams: The Eagles
USA Rugby is responsible for organizing the various US national teams:

Men's teams

 * U.S. national rugby union team — (Men's Eagles) competes annually every August/September in the Americas Rugby Championship, hosts matches during the June internationals, and usually travels to Europe to play in the November internationals. The team also competes every four years at the Rugby World Cup.
 * U.S. national rugby sevens team — (Men's Eagles Sevens) competes annually in the World Rugby Sevens Series, a 10-tournament series that runs from December through June each year. The U.S. sevens team has finished in the top six in each of the three seasons from 2014/15 to 2017/18. The national sevens team also competes every four years in the Pan American Games, the Rugby Sevens World Cup, and in qualifying for the Summer Olympics.
 * U.S. national under-20 rugby union team — competes annually to qualify for either the World Rugby Under 20 Championship or the World Rugby Under 20 Trophy.

Women's teams

 * U.S. women's national rugby union team — (Women's Eagles) competes every four years in the Women's Rugby World Cup. The national women's team had early success in the World Cup, reaching the finals in each of the first three tournaments (1991, 1994, 1998), but has not reached the semifinals since then.
 * U.S. women's national rugby sevens team — (Women's Eagles Sevens) competes in the World Rugby Women's Sevens Series, and have finished in the top six each season since the inaugural series season in 2012–13.
 * United States national under-20 rugby union team — competes annually, most notably with rival nation to the north, Canada in exhibition tournaments.

Professional rugby
The Professional Rugby Organization, known as PRO Rugby, was an American professional rugby union competition that played in 2016. This was the first professional rugby competition in North America. PRO played only the 2016 season, before it ceased operations as of January 2017.

Major League Rugby, another professional competition, was founded in late 2017. It began play in 2018 with seven teams, all in the U.S., and expanded to nine teams for the 2019 season, with one of the new teams in Canada. 2020 was expected to see 12 teams with East and West divisions.

Premier Rugby Sevens, a professional rugby sevens competition, was officially sanctioned in 2021 and has played two seasons thus far in 2021 and 2022.

While not yet professional, the top domestic competition for women's rugby in the US is the Women's Premier League (WPL) with 10 teams. The league completed its 10th season in 2020.

Club competitions
USA Rugby hosts two national championships in the club space. The Club National Championships in early June along with the Club 7s National Championship in mid August.

Rugby Super League, organized and sanctioned by USA Rugby, was the premier national level of men's club competition in the US. It was founded in 1996, but ended play as of 2012 following the Great Recession. Following the demise of the Super League, the Pacific Rugby Premiership was formed in 2013, and began play in 2014 as the top level of men's club competition in the U.S.

The USA Rugby club structure sees the United States divided into two leagues: West and East. Within each league there are four conferences, with the winners of each conference's division advancing to the league semifinals, and the two league champions competing in the national championship.

East: Atlantic North, Mid-Atlantic, Midwest, Southern

West: Pacific North, Pacific South, Frontier, Red River

College rugby
USA Rugby hosts 5 total championship competitions annually. The Men's Division 1-A, Women's D1 Elite, Spring College, Fall College and College 7s Championships.

The Collegiate Rugby Championship is a rugby sevens competition that has been held every year in June since 2010. The tournament is the highest profile college rugby tournament in the U.S., and is broadcast live on NBC every year from PPL Park in the Philadelphia metropolitan area. Every year, the number of spectators increase, and in 2015 the College Rugby Championship broke an attendance record at over 24,000 spectators, which shows how the popularity of the sport is expanding.

State Governing Bodies
State Governing Bodies are responsible for developing an administrative structure with the objective of promoting the development of youth rugby within their state. They are also responsible for day-to-day governance, including organizing league structures, collecting dues, implementing a state championship, and conducting rugby outreach. USA Rugby has 44 state rugby organizations.

World Rugby Hall of Fame
The following have been inducted into the World Rugby Hall of Fame:

U.S. Rugby Hall of Fame
To date, 68 individuals and three teams who have made a lasting impression on rugby in the United States, have been inducted into the U.S. Rugby Hall of Fame. For full bios of all the inductees and for more information about the U.S. Rugby Hall of Fame, visit: usrugbyhalloffame.org.

Coaching
USA Rugby oversees coaching and referee development of the game. USA Rugby requires coaches and referees to register and complete a number of certification courses depending on the level of play.

Geographical unions
USA Rugby organizes amateur registered rugby teams into thirteen geographical unions at the senior club level. High school and youth teams affiliate with State Rugby Organizations while college teams register with either Geographical Unions or College Conferences.

The current Geographical Unions are:

 * Capital (Maryland, Virginia, Washington, D.C.)
 * Carolinas
 * Eastern Penn (also covers Delaware and South Jersey)
 * Empire (New York, southern Connecticut and northern New Jersey)
 * Florida (excludes most of the Panhandle)
 * Mid-America (Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and parts of Illinois)
 * New England
 * Northern California (also covers all of Nevada outside of the Las Vegas Valley)
 * Pacific Northwest (Idaho, Oregon, Washington)
 * Rocky Mountain (Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, and western South Dakota)
 * Southern California (also covers Arizona, New Mexico, and the Las Vegas Valley)
 * Texas (also covers most of Arkansas and Louisiana)
 * True South (Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, and the Florida Panhandle)

The following states are not currently covered by a geographic union:

 * Georgia
 * Illinois
 * Indiana
 * Iowa
 * Kentucky
 * Michigan
 * Minnesota
 * Montana
 * North Dakota
 * Ohio
 * West Virginia
 * Wisconsin
 * In addition, Western Pennsylvania is not covered by a geographic union.

Elected governance history
In June 1987, the position of chairman of the Board was added to the executive committee, and Bob Watkins was named to that position. Effective June 1989, that position was retitled Post of Past President, and remained an appointed post until the position was dropped in 1996.

Effective January 1996, an executive vice president was added. Effective March 2000, the Vice President was replaced with Athlete Vice President. Effective April 2004, the President title was replaced with chairman, and an USARRA Representative was added. Effective July 14, 2006, the governance was changed to a model with a board of directors nominated and approved by a congress.

National office
The governing body of USA Rugby opened a national office on June 3, 1988. The office has been headed by:

title: USA Rugby


text:
Journal of Zoology

The Journal of Zoology is a scientific journal concerning zoology, the study of animals. It was founded in 1830 by the Zoological Society of London and is published by Wiley-Blackwell. It carries original research papers, which are targeted towards general readers. Some of the articles are available via open access, depending on the author's wishes. According to the Journal Citation Reports, the journal has a 2020 impact factor of 2.322, ranking it 36th out of 175 journals in the category "Zoology".

From around 1833, it was known as the Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London. From 1965 to 1984, it was known as the Journal of Zoology: Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London.

title: Journal of Zoology


text:
USS Corry

Three ships of United States Navy were named USS Corry for William Merrill Corry, Jr.

 * USS Corry (DD-334), a Clemson-class destroyer, was commissioned in 1921 and decommissioned in 1930.
 * USS Corry (DD-463), a Gleaves-class destroyer, served from 1941 until she was sunk on D-Day, 6 June 1944.
 * USS Corry (DD-817), a Gearing-class destroyer, was launched in 1945. In 1981, the ship was transferred to Greece and renamed Kriezis.

title: USS Corry


text:
Folkestone Central railway station

Folkestone Central railway station is on the South Eastern Main Line in England, and is the main station serving the town of Folkestone, Kent. It is 69 mi down the line from London Charing Cross. All trains that call are operated by Southeastern.

History
The South Eastern Main Line reached Folkestone in 1843, with a station being opened at Folkestone Junction (Folkestone East) on 18 December 1843. Folkestone West was then opened in 1863, with a station named Cheriton Arch being provided between the two on 1 September 1884. The name Radnor Park was adopted in 1886, and for a few years with just two platform faces, the station was rebuilt in 1890 to add a bay. The station was renamed Folkestone Central in 1895.

The station was rebuilt at the time of the route's electrification in 1961 with two island platforms, linked by a subway and with ramps leading up from the ticket office and concourse, which is itself above street level (an approach road and accompanying pedestrian ramp leads up from Cheriton Road). In 1999 one island platform was abandoned, along with the subway; the platform has not been demolished, although all buildings have been removed.

Services to and from Dover Priory were suspended on 24 December 2015 due to major damage to the track and sea wall near Dover harbour caused by strong winds & tidal surges. A replacement bus service was operation between the two stations, along with a modified timetable whilst repair work was carried out. A new £44.5 million viaduct was constructed to replace the old rail embankment and sea wall. The line reopened on 5 September 2016, as the work progressed faster than originally anticipated.

Services
All services at Folkestone Central are operated by Southeastern using and  EMUs.

The typical off-peak service in trains per hour is:
 * 1 tph to London St Pancras International
 * 1 tph to London Charing Cross via Tonbridge
 * 2 tph to Dover Priory of which 1 continues to Ramsgate

During the peak hours, there are also services to and from London Cannon Street and there is also 1 train per day to London Victoria.

title: Folkestone Central railway station


text:
Talk:Aliens of London

First contact
>(First contact is a science fiction term long before Star Trek. Clive's website says he's dead.)
 * I had never come across the term first contact in any SF books, TV or film before STTNG, but if you can quote me a reference I'd be glad to know. Clive's website isn't part of the television series, so we still don't know he's dead.User:DavidFarmbrough 11:23, 18Apr2005(BST)

 * Have a look at First contact (anthropology) which makes reference to the concept in SF predating Star Trek. It's an anthropological term, not even one that originated in science fiction - for example, there was a film called "First Conact" in 1984, 3 years before TNG Season 1 began, that talked about the cultural confrontation in Papua New Guinea. If you look on Google I think you'll find a page where there is a list of SF stories with first contact themes.

 * As for the website: it's debatable - Clive's website URL was visible when Rose first searched, and we saw his website as well. It's also been updated over the last couple of weeks as the series as progressed. We're not necessarily limited to television sources, as well. If it helps, we can mention that the info that Clive is dead is based on his website. --khaosworks 20:10, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * According to Science Fiction Citations, "first contact" has citations back to 1935. -- Avaragado 18:44, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Email to an acquaintance" re "you're so gay"
Both the alleged controversy over the dialogue, and the alleged email response, need sources IMHO. -- Avaragado 20:20, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Here's two;
 * Both links are dead. Please update. 173.58.47.102 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:02, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Electricity
sends a deadly dose of electricity jolting through the experts' ID cards

Is it explicitly stated in the episode that the ID cards produce electricity? I don't recall such. --DudeGalea 16:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

 * It isn't, but it certainly looks like crackling electricity, not your generic sci-fi energy. It's a visual cue more than a verbal one. --khaosworks 16:38, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

Caption
In all the other episodes of the 2005 season, the screenshot's caption is a quote from one of the characters. Yet, on this page it just says First contact or something more sinister?. I can't think of a quote that we should put there. Any ideas? Thelb 4 13:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Aliens of London/Christmas Invasion same week?
A recent edit said that the dates provided by the UNIT website would put this story and The Christmas Invasion in the same week. But The Christmas Invasion took place over... well, Christmas, surely? How does June=December? Or am I missing something obvious? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * No, no, June means that Boom Town (six months later than AoL) would have to take place in December. And so would The Parting of the Ways, since that takes place between Boom Town and The Christmas Invasion. So it can't be right. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 04:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Oh, right. I misread the note — my bad.

 * But is it possible that Boom Town and The Parting of the Ways take place in or around December 2006, and The Christmas Invasion takes place in December 2007? Does anything in TCI indicate a year? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Answering myself — IIRC, nothing in The Christmas Invasion as broadcast indicates a year, but the Guinevere One website suggested it was Christmas 2006. I think the websites are contradictory, but the series isn't necessarily.  I'll try to reword the note accordingly. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, the logical conclusion that the note leads to is that the websites are contradictory. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 05:14, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Wait, wait — I just did a bit of checking and I can't find the June 28 date on the UNIT website. Instead, I find this page, which seems to suggest a May 26 date for AoL/WW3.  May 26, 2006 would place Boom Town in late November, so The Parting of the Ways could be early December and The Christmas Invasion on Christmas Eve/Day.  No problem.

 * So the question is, did the site formerly have a June date which was changed so that the timeline wouldn't be messed up? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * The dates on the site are a mess. The June 28 date comes from an exchange in the secure section under "Operation London". Although the header read 26/03/05 (cut and pasted from "Operation Mannequin", i.e. Rose), the IM log that follows is all dated 28/06/06 and contemporaneous with the crash in the Thames. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 05:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Ah, right. But if the UNIT site gives two dates (May or June 2006) for the same events, and only one of them is problematic, isn't the obvious answer to go with the one that isn't? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, my legal and historical training tells me that the one with the larger amount of documentation that cannot be easily explained away is the one that's "correct", so my gut's pointing me towards the June 28 date suggested by the website as the one that was intended. But the point is, the website's wrong, or at best inconsistent with the series. AoL, as far as I'm concerned (and Lance agrees in AHistory), takes place in March 2006, 12 months from the established date of Rose's disappearance. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 05:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Fair enough. I still think I'll try to reword the note a little bit to indicate that the UNIT website isn't even consistent with itself, let alone the series. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:32, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Werewolves of London
Is the title a reference to the song Werewolves of LondonJameshibbard (talk) 04:32, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Aliens of London


text:
USS Craven

Three ships of the United States Navy have been named Craven after Tunis Craven, a Navy Commander who died at the Battle of Mobile Bay.

 * USS Craven (TB-10), a torpedo boat, commissioned in 1900 and decommissioned in 1913.
 * USS Craven (DD-70), a destroyer, commissioned in 1918, served in the Royal Navy as Lewes until being scrapped in 1945.
 * USS Craven (DD-382), a destroyer, commissioned in 1937 and decommissioned in 1945.

title: USS Craven


text:
François l'Olonnais

Jean-David Nau (c. 1630 – c. 1669), better known as François l'Olonnais  (also l'Olonnois, Lolonois and Lolona), was a French pirate active in the Caribbean during the 1660s.

Early life
According to Alexandre Exquemelin's 1684 account The History of the Buccaneers of America, l'Olonnais' was born in Les Sables-d'Olonne in the France. He first arrived in the Caribbean as an indentured servant during the 1650s. By 1660 his servitude was complete. He began to wander various islands before arriving in Saint-Domingue – in what is now Haiti – and becoming a buccaneer. He preyed upon shipping from the Spanish West Indies and the Spanish Main.

A year or two (dates regarding l'Olonnais are uncertain) into his piratical career, l'Olonnais was shipwrecked near Campeche in Mexico. A party of Spanish soldiers attacked l'Olonnais and his crew, killing almost the entire party. L'Olonnais survived by covering himself in the blood of others and hiding amongst the dead.

After the Spanish departed, l'Olonnais, with the assistance of some escaped slaves, made his way to the island of Tortuga. A short time later, he and his crew held a town hostage, demanding a ransom from its Spanish rulers. The governor of Cuba, Francisco Oregón y Gascón, sent a ship to kill l'Olonnais' party. l'Olonnais captured and beheaded the ship's entire crew save one, whom he spared so that a message could be delivered to Havana: "I shall never henceforward give quarter to any Spaniard whatsoever."

The sacking of Maracaibo
In 1666, l'Olonnais sailed from Tortuga with a fleet of eight ships and a crew of 440 pirates to sack Maracaibo in what is modern day Venezuela, joining forces with fellow buccaneer Michel le Basque. En route, l'Olonnais crossed paths with a Spanish treasure ship which he captured, along with its cargo of cocoa beans, gemstones, and more than 260,000 Spanish dollars.

At the time the entrance to Lake Maracaibo and thus the city itself was defended by the San Carlos de la Barra Fortress with sixteen guns, which was thought to be impregnable. He approached it from its undefended landward side and took it in few hours. He then proceeded to pillage the city, and found that most of the residents had fled and that their gold had been hidden. L'Olonnais' men tracked down the residents and tortured them until they revealed the location of their possessions. They also seized the fort's cannon and demolished most of the town's defence walls to ensure that a hasty retreat was possible.

L'Olonnais himself was an expert torturer, and his techniques included slicing portions of flesh off the victim with a sword, burning them alive, or tying knotted "woolding" (rope bound around a ship's mast to strengthen it) around the victim's head until their eyes were forced out.

Over the following two months, l'Olonnais and his men tortured, pillaged, and eventually burned much of Maracaibo before moving to San Antonio de Gibraltar, on the eastern shore of Lake Maracaibo. Despite being outnumbered, the pirates slaughtered 500 soldiers of Gibraltar's garrison and held the city for ransom. Despite the payment of the ransom (20,000 pieces of eight and five hundred cattle), l'Olonnais continued to ransack the city, acquiring a total of 260,000 pieces of eight, gems, silverware, and silks, as well as a number of slaves. Word of his attack on Maracaibo and Gibraltar reached Tortuga, and l'Olonnais earned a reputation for his ferocity and cruelty. He was given the nickname "The Bane of Spain" (Fléau des Espagnols).

Expedition to Honduras
Seven hundred pirates enlisted with l'Olonnais when he mounted his next expedition, this time to the Central American mainland. In 1667, after pillaging Puerto Cavallo on the coast of Honduras, l'Olonnais was ambushed by a large force of Spanish soldiers while en route to San Pedro. Only narrowly escaping with his life, l'Olonnais captured two Spaniards. Exquemelin wrote:"''He drew his cutlass, and with it cut open the breast of one of those poor Spanish, and pulling out his heart with his sacrilegious hands, began to bite and gnaw it with his teeth, like a ravenous wolf, saying to the rest: I will serve you all alike, if you show me not another way'."

Horrified, the surviving Spaniard showed l'Olonnais a clear route to San Pedro. L'Olonnais and the few men still surviving were repelled, and retreated back to their ship. They ran aground on a shoal on the Pearl keys from Nicaragua. Unable to dislodge their craft, they headed inland to find food. From here, he ran several operational attacks to Campeche, San Pedro Sula and Guatemala, and was trying to penetrate Nicaragua inland cities through the Nicaraguan river (now called El Rio Grande de Matagalpa). He was defeated and almost killed by the natives of the region. He escaped and went to Cartagena in Colombia, looking for food. He was captured by the natives from Darién, a modern-day province of Panama. They were captured by the indigenous Kuna tribe, which killed l'Olonnais. Exquemelin wrote that the natives: "'...tore him in pieces alive, throwing his body limb by limb into the fire and his ashes into the air; to the intent no trace nor memory might remain of such an infamous, inhuman creature'."

At some point before his death, he sailed briefly to Jamaica to sell off a prize ship. It was purchased in 1668 by Roc Brasiliano, who sailed with Jelles de Lecat against the Spanish alongside Henry Morgan.

In popular culture
The Japanese transliteration of l'Olonnois (Roronoa) served as inspiration for the name of Roronoa Zoro in the manga series One Piece. The appearance of another character in the series, the swordsman Dracule Mihawk, is likely based on L'Olonnais' 1684 portrait as well. In the 1980 film The Island, it is revealed that a secret enclave of pirates had been in existence for three hundred years, after it was established by Jean-David Nau (also known as François l'Olonnais). Furthermore, his South American exploits might have been partial inspiration for the Errol Flynn character, Geoffrey Thorp, in The Sea Hawk.

Nau is one of nine historical pirates who can be fought in Sid Meier's Pirates!

title: François l'Olonnais


text:
Talk:Guys and Dolls

Time Periods
What is the time period for the stage play? I assumed it was in the 1950's based on one of the songs mentioning "late '48" but I wasn't sure. Does it change with subsequent productions?
 * i think it is good ...

 * That's an interesting point, and one I argued with the producer about (gently) when I was in an amateur production of the show.

 * I don't think there's too much point trying to pin this down, as in fact I think there are numerous small anachronisms and inconsistencies.

 * I think the Runyon stories it is based on refer to the forties.

 * The references to Big Julie being "from Cicero," which is obviously supposed to signify something familiar to the audience, are presumably a reference to Al Capone's gang; Capone died in 1947.

 * In "Take Back Your Mink," the lyrics say "He bought me the fur coat five winters ago, and the gown the following fall/Then the necklace, the bag, the hat and the shoes/That was late forty-eight, I recall." It's not clear how far in the past "late forty-eight" is, but it certainly puts us in the late forties or early fifties. "That was late thirty-eight" would have given just as good an internal rhyme if Loesser had wanted to put it in the forties. The show premiered in 1950 so I think the intention of "late forty-eight I recall" was to set the song in "the present."

 * A key question to which I don't have a very good answer is this. A key plot element is the ready availability of plane flights from New York to Havana. When Sky gets Sarah to agree to have dinner with him at the Cafe Cubana, he says, "It only takes X hours on the plane. And the food is great!" I've never managed to turn up the actual Runyon story, so I don't know if this plays out the same way in Runyon's story. I believe the idea of being able to fly to Havana just to have dinner would not have been thinkable even as an extravagance in the 1940s, so this again for me points to "the present, 1950."

 * "Adelaide's Lament" implies that she is reading some kind of pop-psychology book, and that the notion of "psychosomatic symptoms" is current and trendy. I think that, too, was postwar, with the explosion of interest in Freudian psychology following the emigration of Viennese Jews, including psychiatrists, to New York.

 * So, my vote is that it is set in "the present," i.e. 1950. I don't remember if the script has anything to say about this. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right about the play, but Damon Runyon's world is the world of Prohibition and Repeal - that is, the '20s and 30's. Many people of the time populate his stories in disguise.

Speakeasy hostess 'Texas' Guinian (known for greeting patrons with the phrase 'hello sucker!') appears as 'Missouri Martin' (and almost says 'hello sucker' too, see 'The Bloodhounds of Broadway').

Crap shooter 'Big Nig' is meat to be gambler 'Nigger Nate', who was part of a cheating team that cleaned out Arnold Rothstein (of the 'Black Sox' baseball scandal) in a high-stakes poker game, Oct 1928. His murder a month later is sometimes ascribed to his refusing to pay markers from this game, on the grounds that the game was fixed. Magician and card expert John Scarne discusses the incident in detail in his 1966 autobiography 'The Odds Against Me'. (Sorry about the racial moniker, these guys was not refined, whaddaya want?)

Rothstein himself was nicknamed 'the Brain' and a character resembling him is the central character in the story. 'The Brain Goes Home'. Rothstein is also thought to be part of the inspiration for Nathan Detroit.

Runyon's character newspaper writer Waldo Winchester looks very like a thinly disguised version of real-life broadway columnist Walter Winchell.

There are others, but the point is, they are all c. 1920-1940. Also, the slang used is of the vintage of about 1920. I always thought setting the musical in the 1950's was a little jarring - Runyon was shaped by the turn of the century and the early modern age, and by the 1950's a lot of his world was gone. I hope the new Broadway musical will put the guys and dolls in the Jazz Age, where they belong. 65.89.68.24 (talk) 03:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Prone to violence?
How is Sky Masterson prone to violence?

Is someone confusing him with Big Julie, who is implied to be violent from a) the fearful and submissive reactions of other players to his outrageous suggestions, and b) his home town, Cicero, which is commonly identified with Al Capone? Dpbsmith (talk) 10:37, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Loudonville Elementary 1993 production?
Is this an elementary school production?

What standard of notability to we want to apply here? Do we want to count community theatre productions as revivals?

Should this material be in the article? I'm thinking not. At the very least, we need to have verifiability in the form of a reliable source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:27, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I love the way it "ran for nearly three nights". What happened on that third night? ;-)—Phil | Talk 14:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * They had a cast party with milk and Oreos in the cafetorium? Dpbsmith (talk) 16:12, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Dudes, this was a pretty notable production. Re: "nearly three nights"--well, yeah, because Sunday was a matinee (followed by an impromptu trip to see Jurassic Park). And, no, there were no Oreos in the cafetorium. There was popcorn and that awesome McDonald's orange drink that you used to see on soccer fields. Remember that? I dunno, maybe there were oreos, too. Too bad I can't look it up on wikipedia, thanks to you stuffed shirts. 66.17.174.98 (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2013 (UTC)Hary the Horse.

Missing information on Revivals
Apropos of the various "revivals", we are missing some vital bits of information: —Phil | Talk 14:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Where were the 1976 and 1992 ones staged?
 * Who produced any of them?
 * Should we have a more complete cast list for each one?

"Happy Ending"
The item
 * Happy Ending

was recently added to the list of musical numbers. AFAIK there is no song by that name, at least not in the original production. Where does this come from? Was it recently added? Is it in the movie? Is this just a title of convenience given to a snippet of closing dialog and the final reprise of Guys and Dolls on recordings? Or what? Dpbsmith (talk) 11:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The Happy Ending is a one-page reprise of Guys and Dolls. It's in the Musical Theatre International version of the script..Miguel Cervantes 18:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Long before Guys and Dolls, Berthold Brecht and Kurt Weill wrote the musical Happy End, undoubtedly also taken from Runyon's stories, but with a much darker feel to it. It was first performed in 1929 in Berlin.

Arena Stage in Washington DC mounted a production in 1984, which was taped by and broadcast on PBS as part of its American Musical Theater series.

(talk) 21:44, 25 March 2016 (UTC)LaurieRose28

Excessively coy description?

 * Surprisingly, Sky manages to get Sarah to agree to the date, putting Nathan in even worse condition. Over the course of their date, Sky manages to break down Sarah's social barriers, and they begin to fall for each other.

Social barriers? Begin to fall for each other? Maybe I just have a dirty mind, but "If I Were A Bell" seems to me at least as explicit than, say, the Hollywood convention of the time: couple kisses, then cut to exploding skyrockets.

And I don't think it was really "cider" in Nathan's ear, either. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ha, this is a very interesting point. Re: Sky and Sarah's Cuban date: Well, I didn't see the original Broadway production, but I have seen a regional production. Although Sarah gets very drunk, and the lyrics of "If I Were A Bell" certainly imply "something", I seem to think that Sky is a "gentleman" and does not take advantage of the situation--or Sarah.JeanColumbia 14:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

 * In the movie, there's no way they went beyond kissing. Indeed, just before "If I Were a Bell", they have a conversation where Sarah seems to be suggesting it, and Sky (by now, falling in love with her) says no, you don't know what you're getting into. — Lawrence King ( talk ) 06:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

 * When Sky tells Nathan, et al, that all women are the same (cosi fan tutte?), and Sarah is selected as the target, Sky collapses with the famous "Cider in my ear" response. I've always assumed he's supposed to sexually seduce her -- not just fly her to Havana for a meal. This is pretty clear when, after getting Sarah drunk, and her singing "If I Were a Bell", he refrains from taking advantage of her. As suggested above, this is a point that needs discussion. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 15:15, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

 * No, the bet is only to take an undisclosed woman to Havana. Since Sky is a master talker and thinks any woman would adore him, he sees this as an easy bet. The problem of course comes when Nathan then chooses a pious religious zealot. Softlavender (talk) 05:13, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Some changes that i made
Hey I made some changes on the page so that it would be more organized. The lists of casts and beneath each show seemed rather pointless, and it has been bothering me for a little bit of time now. On the How to Succeedd in Buisness Without Really Trying page i noticed they had it a small table on the page comparing who has played which parts in which productions. I adapted a similar version of that table for Guys and Dolls. I also moved the picture to the top of the page. Props for whoever loaded that picture.--Kiwiboy1221 00:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Kiwiboy1221--I think that chart helps immensely when there are so many productions. I think this article is ready to be rated--it surely is more than a stub now. Does anyone know how to ask for an assessment?JeanColumbia 14:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I just realized that the template is for a FILM stub, rather than a THEATER stub. I'll try to find out how to get this assessed, anyway.JeanColumbia 14:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Broadway leads
Shouldn't the lead players in the original Broadway performance be named? — Lawrence King ( talk ) 06:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I added them to the top. I know they appear in the table at the bottom, but it seems odd for the first mention of Vivian Blaine to be as a star of the movie. — Lawrence King ( talk ) 06:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

high-roller/ high roller hyphenated?
High-roller (or high roller) appears four times in various forms in the current article, hyphenated twice of the four. Is it truly hyphenated? and why is a link to "high roller" only supplied in the last appearance on the page? I believe it is not supposed to be hyphenated, because the article high roller is not hyphenated. Yelling Bird 02:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Separating the Acts
In the synopsis and song list, would someone kindly indicate where Act II begins? I suggest adding this at the top of each act: --Ssilvers 20:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Act I
 * Act II

 * Each of those is still pretty long & detailed: respectively, 11 and 7 paragraphs... of course! I've taken it a step further by making them level-3 subsections. This will make it easier to refer/link to particular elements in the section. --Thnidu (talk) 04:47, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Versions?
I recall playing sax for my high school's production of Guys and Dolls. My favorite instrumental was "Havana Escapade", which is hard to find. The audio recording I own (a CD) didn't have the same Havana Escapade that I played. I see from the comments here that there are multiple versions of the musical. So, maybe a discussion of what's different among versions would be good. Bugmuncher (talk) 06:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

IBDb link and template
The first [Guys_and_Dolls#External_links|external link], to the IBDb entry for the show, was implemented with an ibdb template and went to http://www.ibdb.com/production.asp?id=4133, which is about a specific production of "A Talent for Murder".

I've substituted the correct link, which is http://www.ibdb.com/Show.asp?id=4133 (with "Show" instead of "production"). Since I don't know how that template is supposed to work and won't put time into it now, I just used a straightforward external link. Thnidu (talk) 03:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Menton in seinfeld?
Does this really need its own section? I'm sure there have been a lot of other cultural references...  J o s h  01:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

 * You're right. AJD (talk) 01:16, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Vocal Ranges
I think that the vocal ranges section might use a bit of tightening. There are a few places that I see cause for rectification.

Arvide is listed as 'bass/baritone.' While his solo 'More I Cannot Wish You' is an ideal bass song, it should be noted that in 'Follow the Fold,' he sings the tenor line, and has several Es and Fs. Though this is not quite so noticeable from simply listening. I would say that Sky Materson is more of a bass than Arvide, simply by the fact that Sky Masterson doesn't sing as high as Arvide, and indeed goes lower at points than Arvide does in the whole show.

Also, I find it somewhat odd that Nathan Detroit is listed as a 'baritone/tenor' while Benny Southstreet is listed as a 'baritone.' They both have a similar range, but Benny goes higher than Nathan. Nathan only goes up to an F, whereas Benny goes up to a G in several places in the title song with Nicely. I would think that Benny and Rusty Charlie could be competently played by baritones and tenors alike. They never really sing low at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.152.162.205 (talk) 04:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Runyonland
"The show opens with Damon Runyon writing the beginning to his story, "Broadway Stories". The story is then acted out by the company, through dance ("Runyonland")"

I haven't seen the orignal production, but in all the versions i've seen Runyonland has simply acted as the overture, with no Damon Runyon to be seen. Is this done in other productions? If not it should be mentioned.--210.50.254.172 (talk) 12:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. My high school just put on Guys & Dolls and we included Runyonland as the overture; I think this is the same for all high schools. Rsteilberg 04:04, 15 April 2011 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rsteilberg (talk • contribs)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move. — ξ xplicit  07:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Guys and Dolls (musical) → Guys and Dolls — The article was controversially moved to the current location recently without discussion or consensus. The musical is the primary topic and the dab page, Guys and Dolls (disambiguation) has existed for over a year and a half. Aspects (talk) 21:37, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Agreed. Mark E (talk) 22:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The musical was the first to be produced, and should be considered primary.JeanColumbia (talk) 11:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Stage musical pre-dates other uses. J. Van Meter (talk) 16:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It's just first. --jpgordon:==( o ) 23:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Including the movie version in the list of major productions
There's only been one film version of this musical made. True, it has its own article and is briefly referenced in the article, but I think it should be mentioned in the table of major productions because 1) it is the only other major production (other than the original London production) to include any major members from the original Broadway production, 2) it likely cost as much or more than the other major productions (given the difference in salaries), 3) it's not as though we're mixing in a group of plays and movies -- there has only been one movie made. Banaticus (talk) 07:35, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Question about the City Center productions being listed in the chart of Major Productions
The two City Center productions ran for less than 17 performances each. Are these then "Major Productions"? I think not. They aren't even listed in the infobox. Also, they are for some reason being described as "Broadway Revivals" in the chart, even though they weren't called that in the article text. CC isn't even a Broadway theatre (at least not any more). I'm wondering if these two minimal productions should be deleted from the chart. They are already described in the aricle if anybody wants info on them. Softlavender (talk) 01:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

 * I went ahead and deleted them, since neither of the productions ran more than 31 performances, and thus in my opinion cannot be considered "major" compared to the other NYC and London productions. If anyone disagrees, let me know and perhaps we can consider re-instating the info into the chart, but I did make sure that all four principals were listed in the article text describing each production. Also, that chart was getting too big and overcrowded in my opinion. Softlavender (talk) 07:33, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I removed something I couldn't find a citation for
In the following sentence about the 2009 Broadway revival, I deleted the part in bold: "The show opened to generally negative reviews, and was rumored to close right away according to Playbill." That's because I can't find a reference for it. Granted, Playbill.com's search engine is rather clunky, and I may have missed it, but on the other hand, I don't know that Playbill could have gotten away with rumoring something like that without being sued. So I'm deleting it, at least until someone can validate it with a citation. Anyway, I replaced that phrase with a reference which summarizes all the bad reviews the production got, so that should suffice as a good replacement. Softlavender (talk) 07:50, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Inclusion of the movie "soundtrack"
From the quick research I've done, it seems that the two references linked for the movie soundtrack are not official releases-- both appear to dubbed from a home recording of the movie. I'd suggest that due to this, the reference to the movie soundtrack should be deleted (since there does not appear to be an official version). Scify (talk) 03:31, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm having a problem with the word "libretto" used in the Background section
Thank you to MarianWilde for expanding that section. I myself am having trouble with the use of the word "libretto" in that section. Can we please change it to something less ambiguous? Depending on who you talk to and when, in musical theatre libretto can mean lyrics, book, or both. And of course in opera, it means only lyrics. It's usually mostly associated with the lyricist, which of course in this instance would be Frank Loesser. Since the item actually being talked about is the book, can we please replace the word "libretto" some more appropriate word that cannot be misconstrued, e.g., "book", "script", etc.? Almost every source on this play calls it the "book". The script itself reads: "A musical fable of Boardway / Based on a story and characters of Damon Runyon / Music and Lyrics by Frank Loesser / Book by Jo Swerling & Abe Burrows". "Book" is also the term used in Wikipedia musical theatre infoboxes. "Libretto" is how this article already refers to the lyrics, in the Reception section: "The libretto and score was greatly praised as well ...". I've gone ahead and replaced the usage in the Background section to match Wikipedia style. Thanks. Softlavender (talk) 06:19, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

 * I'm fine using "book" or "script" (though I like "book" is better). I have no particular attachment to the word "libretto"; I simply was not thinking of its implications. Thanks for catching that. I will be more careful about my use of "libretto" in the future! MarianWilde (talk) 06:42, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

 * Cool, thanks for all your great additions to the article! Softlavender (talk) 06:44, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

"Biltmore Garage" ≠ Garage of the Biltmore Hotel
The Biltmore hotel is never mentioned, and the owner, or at least the person who wants $1,000 for the use of the garage, is named Joey Biltmore. The Damon Runyon story mentioning Nathan Detroit's floating crap game, Blood Pressurel, says:This crap game is over a garage in Fifty-second Street this particular night, though sometimes it is over a restaurant in Forty-seventh Street, or in back of a cigar store in Forty-fourth Street.

The New York Biltmore Hotel was located at 335 Madison Avenue which is between 42nd and 43rd Street, near Grand Central.

It's possible that there is sly misdirection going on and that perhaps lyricist Frank Loesser meant for us to think of the Biltmore Hotel, but the librettist created "Joey Biltmore" so that they could have plausible denial if the Biltmore Hotel objected, but I would want to see a citation before saying so. But I think identifying "Biltmore garage" as "Garage of the BIltmore Hotel" is just plain jumping to a conclusion, and I don't think it should be stated unless someone can cite evidence to back it up.

The Biltmore Hotel is about a mile from Lindy's at 1626 Broadway, which I'll take as a marker for Damon Runyon's "Broadway." I'm not sure whether the Biltmore is a credible location for a floating crap game; it seems to have been an upscale hotel in an upscale area. But then, PS84 is on West 92nd Street, almost 3 miles from Lindy's, so who knows what Frank Loesser had in mind, other than rhyme and meter?

Dpbsmith (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Non-Equity US Tour
There is currently under way a 6-month Non-Equity tour: the leading players are not notable, and the director is not notable. Certainly a real US national tour would be important to be added to the article, but I would not say that it is essential to add this production. If you do add it, this is the this is the full itinerary of the tour posted by IATSE, which began in December 2014 and goes until May 2015:  Here are some refs: this and this. Here is the tour's official website. You should not not name the designers, unless they are blue-linked people. All the best! -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:39, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

 * I personally agree/think not notable, or insufficiently notable. Thanks for looking that up. Softlavender (talk) 04:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

None
Please see correct usage for "none of them". It takes "were", not "was". Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 17:17, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

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 * Viviane Blaine and Sam Levene in the Original Broadway Production of Guys and Dolls.jpg

title: Talk:Guys and Dolls