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Talk:Spanglish (film)

Plot
Whoever wrote the plot summary is seriously stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.117.144.182 (talk) 20:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I just rewrote it. - Shaheenjim (talk) 23:41, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The English in the plot section of the article is not very good. Grammar mistakes, awkward phrasing, formatting errors... It should really be copy-edited or re-written by an English speaker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.36.52.31 (talk) 12:11, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Controversy
The movie was GRRRReat! My question is why is it controversial for a Spanish woman to play Mexican? I though Mexicans spoke Spanish. I didn't see any controversy because Tracey Ullman portrayed a Russian and she's British.  Don MEGA  60645 17:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The language that most Mexicans speak is Spanish as they do in Spain (albeit Castillian). However, that simple observation indicates some naiveté on your part. The issue is not language but that most of the population of Mexico is Mestizo (70% - people of Spanish and Native American origin) and Paz Vega clearly has more European features. It goes without saying that there is profound racism in Mexico and those of more Spanish-European descent are not ones that come here to be housekeepers. Watch Mexican television for an idea of what I am talking about. Mexico is far more class-oriented (de facto caste system) based on race to a far more substantial degree than in the U.S. where you are guaranteed an education to grade 12 simply for the asking. The movie therefore represented someone atypical in appearance relative to most Mexicans.
 * The cynic in me would think this was an attempt to make the illegal alien crisis more palatable to America at large due to Hollywood's preoccupation with multiculturalism and hyphenated Americanism. However, it misses the point (of course). The vast majority of Americans simply believe it to be a rule of law issue and not of nationality/ethnic origin. Are Mexicans entitled to come here illegally en masse over everyone else in the world that wants to come here just because we share a common border? Such a largely homogenous group of immigrants (language and culture) coming here illegally is unprecedented and damages the prospect of measured assimilation and our tradition of Americanization of immigrants (common identity as Americans). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.14.148.51 (talk • contribs) 18:19, 2006 August 31

 * The anonymous poster above did a fine job of explaining why it was idiotic to cast a white Spanish person as an undocumented Mexican housekeeper in America, so I'm only going to add some additional comments. Casting Spanish white actress Paz Vega as a Mexican servant in the US illegally was NOT like casting British actress Tracy Ullman as a Russian.  It was more akin to casting Samuel L. Jackson, Cheech Marin or Lucy Liu as a Russian.  There are white Mexicans, but as the above poster has already said, they're generally well-off and have much less reason to come to America (let alone illegally) than non-white Mexicans.
 * --drumwolf – 71.139.167.228 (Talk/Contribs) 2006 Dec. 16 and 72.1.150.252 (Talk/Contribs) 2006 Dec. 29

The most important reason why it is crazy to cast a European in that specific role, is because Flor's daughter sayd to Tea Leoni's character "You are the nicest white woman I've ever met". This rules out the possibility that Flor is a white Mexican. Americans would have laughed if someone like Sandra Bullock played Flor, so why is it acceptable for Paz Vega who is far less ethnic looking that Sandra Bullock, for instance, to play this ethnic character? Because American media has grouped all spanish-speaking peopl into one ridiculous group "Latino", "Hispanic" and more, but the fact is that placing a European and a person of mostly Aztec decect, like most Mexicans are, in one Group is like calling Samuel L. ackson white simply because he speaks english and has an Englisg surname. Does this make him and Jude Law of the same ethnic background? NO!!! 93.133.252.212 (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Just relax guys: It´s a MOVIE, not a documentary!!

And remember: Movies are NOT reality and never want to be the reality.

So if you have a problem with the fictitious live and fictitious characters in movies: Don´t watch movies, stay in real-life!

Just FYI, writing a college personal statement on the life of your mother is not a good idea, unless you are applying to the college for her. ---makuta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.135.70 (talk) 04:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Plot
I edited the apostrophes out of the summary header and the "trivia", if you could call it that, which simply said "Some fans think this is Adam Sandlers worst movie", no citation, pure opinion. I think the plot summary probably contains a negative slant though i haven't read it through... (don't worry i didn't edit it) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.215.133.69 (talk • contribs) 15:19, 2006 July 12

Flor’s name
With regards to the pronunciation of Flor, I can hear the differences in the scene, but cannot make the correct sound myself. Are there any English words with the same “r”/“or” sound? —MJBurrage • TALK  • 22:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Spanglish poster.jpg
Image:Spanglish poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot (talk) 05:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Critical Reception?
The "Critical Reception" section says "Its proponents champion the film as a seminal, revolutionary masterpiece, breaking new ground in the areas of visual composition and sound/light resonance..." Is there a citation for this? I've never heard anyone refer to this film as a "revolutionary masterpiece," and frankly I find it a little hard to believe that anyone would. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.44.29 (talk) 12:47, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Spanglish (film)


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User talk:Trainweb Fan

Has Trainweb specifically said that their logo can be used freely as long as www.trainweb.com appears? The page on the site that talks about that specifically uses the word "photo", which this is not. --SPUI (talk) 21:25, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Trainweb Fan


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Brian Krause

Brian Jeffrey Krause (born February 1, 1969) is an American actor. He is known for his role as Leo Wyatt on The WB television series Charmed (1998–2006) and for portraying the lead role of Charles Brady in the 1992 horror film Sleepwalkers.

Early life
Krause was born in El Toro, California, the son of Alice and Jeff Krause. He has a brother named Patrick. Krause was adopted. He grew up in Southern California and took his first acting class at The Actors Workshop while in junior high. In his teens, he studied karate and attended El Toro High School, where he graduated in 1987. He continued his education at Orange Coast College.

Career
Krause landed his first role in 1989 as a student in the TV series TV 101. He then starred in the made-for-TV-movie Match Point, the CBS Schoolbreak Special "American Eyes", and An American Summer, before landing his first major role as Richard Lestrange, Jr. in the film Return to the Blue Lagoon (1991). He was a co-star in the Bandit series prior to his most notable role of Leo Wyatt, in The WB Network series Charmed (1998–2006). Krause originally auditioned for the role of Andy Trudeau but was cast as Piper's handyman/whitelighter love interest.

Due to budget restrictions in the eighth season (2005–06), he only appeared in the first 10 episodes and last two episodes. After Charmed, he has appeared in made-for-TV-movies and TV shows such as Mad Men (episode 2x12 The Mountain King), The Closer (episode 4x01 Controlled Burn), and Castle (episode 3x03 Under the Gun). He lent his voice and image to portray a minor character (Clem Feeney) in the videogame L.A. Noire, and he appeared in the YouTube video series Chad Vader, in Season 4, Episode 4: "The Return of Brian" (uploaded July 10, 2012), as himself, a former employee of Empire Market.

He starred as Ben in the 2012 film Ben and Becca, directed by Victor Alferi, written and produced by Bibi Amos, who also starred as Becca.

title: Brian Krause


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Template:Music of Indonesia

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David Kirby (journalist)

David Kirby was an American journalist based in Brooklyn, New York, and was formerly a regular contributor to The New York Times since 1998. He was the author of Evidence of Harm (2005), Animal Factory (2010), Death at Sea World (2012), and When They Come for You (2019). Kirby wrote on thiomersal and vaccines and has criticized factory farms.

Biography
Kirby wrote for many national magazines, including Glamour, Redbook, Self, and Mademoiselle. From 1986 to 1990, Kirby was a foreign correspondent for UPI, and Newsday (among others) in Latin America, covering wars in El Salvador and Nicaragua, and he covered politics, corruption, and natural disasters in Mexico. It was during this time that he was also a reporter for OutWeek.

From 1990 to 1993, Kirby was director of public information at the American Foundation for AIDS Research (AmFAR), worked for New York City Council President Carol Bellamy, and was a senior staff adviser to David Dinkins' successful 1989 run for mayor of New York City.

In 1998, Kirby wrote a cover story for The Advocate, "Does coming out matter?". From 1998 to 2001, he wrote many articles for The Advocate, including one on the courage of young gay and lesbian scouts and service members.

From 2000 to 2004, Kirby contributed several articles on travel to The New York Times, including "Rainbow Beach Towels on Mexican Sand", an article on the gay tourism industry in Puerto Vallarta. He has also written on topics other than travel and leisure, including on a new phenomenon, known as "dirty driving", the playing pornography on DVD screens inside vehicles while they drive through traffic. The article expressed concern for what children have been exposed to by these "dirty drivers".

In 2005, Kirby's book Evidence of Harm - Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy was published.

Kirby was a contributing blogger at The Huffington Post.

According to an article in Gay City News, David Kirby died on April 16 in Puebla, Mexico, after a fall leading to an illness. He was 62 years old.

Evidence of Harm
Evidence of Harm (2005) explores the controversies surrounding thimerosal-containing vaccines (TCVs), and whether TCVs have contributed to the apparent increase of autism, ADHD, speech delay, and other childhood disorders in the United States. In the book, Kirby tells the personal stories of parents of children who have autism, and founders of the advocacy group SafeMinds, including Sallie Bernard, Lyn Redwood, Mark Blaxill, Albert Enayati, Heidi Roger, and Liz Birt.

The autism-vaccine link has been firmly discredited, including any suggested evidence of a link between thimerosal and autism. The majority of scientific consensus agrees with vast population studies that have shown there to be no link between vaccines, autism, and thimerosal. The original paper by Andrew Wakefield that started a media firestorm and led to fears of vaccination amongst parents has been discredited and research by journalist Brian Deer showed the data used in the paper to be fraudulent.

British Medical Journal review
In May 2005, Evidence of Harm was reviewed negatively in the British Medical Journal. The reviewer described Kirby's book as "woefully one-sided", and wrote: "In his determination to provide an account that is sympathetic to the parents, Kirby enters into the grip of the same delusion and ends up in the same angry and paranoid universe into which campaigners have descended, alleging phone taps and other forms of surveillance as they struggle against sinister conspiracies between health authorities and drug companies.

Animal Factory
In 2010, Kirby authored Animal Factory: The Looming Threat of Industrial Pig, Dairy, and Poultry Farms to Humans and the Environment. The book exposes the business interests, environmental effects, and terrible conditions of factory farms.

It was positively reviewed by National Public Radio which concluded that "the growth of factory farming in America obviously brings up issues of animal welfare, labor and nutrition, but Kirby's focus in Animal Factory is purely how the farms are changing, perhaps irrevocably, the environments and the long-term health of the people who live near them. There's no political pleading or ideological agitprop in this book; it's remarkably fair-minded, both sober and sobering."

Selected publications

 * Evidence of Harm: Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy (2005)
 * Animal Factory: The Looming Threat of Industrial Pig, Dairy, and Poultry Farms to Humans and the Environment (2010)
 * Death at SeaWorld: Shamu and the Dark Side of Killer Whales in Captivity (2012)
 * When They Come for You: How Police and Government Are Trampling Our Liberties - And How to Take Them Back (2019)

title: David Kirby (journalist)


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Stannite

Stannite is a mineral, a sulfide of copper, iron, and tin, in the category of thiostannates.

Background
The chemical formula is Cu2FeSnS4. Zinc commonly occurs with the iron and trace germanium may be present. Stannite is used as an ore of tin, consisting of approximately 28% tin, 13% iron, 30% copper, 30% sulfur by mass. It is found in tin-bearing, hydrothermal vein deposits occurring with chalcopyrite, sphalerite, tetrahedrite, arsenopyrite, pyrite, cassiterite, and wolframite.

It is also known as bell metal ore as tin is an important constituent of bell-metal. It is thought the exploitation of tin deposits in Cornwall led to an expansion in bell founding.

The name comes from the Latin for tin: stannum. It was first described in 1797 for an occurrence in Wheal Rock, St. Agnes, Cornwall, England.

title: Stannite


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User:Evolve75

Evolve75's User Page
Evolve75's User Page.

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Decretum Gratiani

The Decretum Gratiani, also known as the Concordia discordantium canonum or Concordantia discordantium canonum or simply as the Decretum, is a collection of canon law compiled and written in the 12th century as a legal textbook by the jurist known as Gratian. It forms the first part of the collection of six legal texts, which together became known as the Corpus Juris Canonici. It was used as the main source of law by canonists of the Roman Catholic Church until the Decretals, promulgated by Pope Gregory IX in 1234, obtained legal force, after which it was the cornerstone of the Corpus Juris Canonici, in force until 1917.

Overview
In the first half of the 12th century Gratian, clusinus episcopus, probably a jurist of the ecclesiastical forum and a teacher, rubricator at the monastery of Saints Nabor and Felix (according to the Bolognese Odofredus Denariis [13th century]) and starting from the 18th century believed to have been a Camaldolese monk, composed the work he called Concordia discordantium canonum, and others titled Nova collectio, Decreta, Corpus juris canonici, or the more commonly accepted name, Decretum Gratiani, a living text, characterized by multiple editorial stages. He did this to obviate the difficulties which beset the study and the forensic application of practical, external theology (theologia practica externa), i.e., the study and the forensic use of canon law. In spite of its great reputation and wide diffusion, the Decretum has never been recognized by the Church as an official collection.

The so-called vulgata or vulgate version (an advanced editorial stage) of the Decretum is divided into three parts (ministeria, negotia, sacramenta).

 * The first part is divided into 101 distinctions (distinctiones), the first 20 of which form an introduction to the general principles of canon law (tractatus decretalium); the remainder constitutes a tractatus ordinandorum, relative to ecclesiastical persons and function.
 * The second part contains 36 causes (causæ), divided into questions (quæstiones), and treat of ecclesiastical administration, procedural issues and marriage. Quaestio 3 of Causa 33 on penance (De penitentia) is treated separately and subdivided into 7 distinctions.
 * The third part De consecratione deals with sacramental and liturgical law and contains 5 distinctions.

Each distinction or question contains dicta Gratiani, or maxims of Gratian, and canones. Gratian himself raises questions and brings forward difficulties, which he answers by quoting auctoritates, i. e. canons of councils, decretals of the popes, texts of the Scripture or of the Fathers. These are the canones; the entire remaining portion, even the summaries of the canons and the chronological indications, are called the maxims or dicta Gratiani.

Many auctoritates have been inserted in the Decretum by authors of a later date. These are the Paleae, so called from Paucapalea, the name of the principal commentator on the Decretum. The Roman revisers of the 16th century (1566–1582) corrected the text of the "Decree" and added many critical notes designated by the words Correctores Romani.

Citing the Decretum
The Decretum is cited by referring to the larger units of the distinction or the cause and question, and then the specific canon or dictum. For clarity, the distinctions of Causa 33, quaestio 3 of the second part are referred to as De penitentia (or De pen.), while the distinctions of the third part are referred to as De consecratione (or De cons.). The Part is usually not included, as the citation form is different for each.

Citation styles for the Decretum have changed over time and can generally be categorised under the modern, obsolescent, and obsolete forms.

Modern form
This form, common since the twentieth century, cites all units in Arabic numerals, from largest unit to smallest unit.

Distinctions are referenced by an uppercase "D.", Causes by an uppercase "C.", questions by a lowercase "q.", and canons by a lowercase "c.". Gratian's dicta are referred to with a lowercase "d. a. c." (dictum ante canonem, for commentary preceding the canon) or "d. p. c." (dictum post canonem, for commentary following the canon).

Examples:

 * [Part I] D. 23 c.7
 * [Part II] C. 15 q. 2 c. 4
 * [Part II] C. 23 q. 8 d. p. c. 25
 * [Part II, De penitentia] D. 3 de pen. c. 24
 * [Part III] D. 2 de cons. c. 82

Obsolescent form
Commonly used between the seventeenth and early twentieth centuries, this form generally begins with a reference to the smallest unit in Arabic numerals, followed by the Distinction or Cause in Roman numerals and (if required) the question in Arabic numerals, e.g. "c. 5, C.3 q.1".

Obsolete form
This is the form used by medieval and early modern writers, falling out of use after the eighteenth century. Major divisions (Distinctio, Causa, quaestio) were cited with (usually Roman) numerals. Since the numbering of the Decretum's capitula only became standard in the sixteenth century, canons were cited by their opening word(s). Two or more canons beginning with the same word/phrase might be distinguished with numbers, e.g. In Christo ii.

Examples (using the same references as above):

 * xxiii dist. episcopus
 * xv q. ii felix
 * xxiii q. viii § hinc datur
 * iii de pen[itentia] totam
 * ii de cons. In Christo ii

Early commentators might also refer to the first few canons by number (e.g. cap. iij for the third canon of a distinction), or to the last few canons as cap. antepenult. ("capitulum antepenultimum", that is, third to last), cap. penult. (or pen. or pe., second to last), and cap. fin. ("capitulum finale") or cap. ult. (last).

Author

Gratian was a canon lawyer from Etruria, probably operating in the former feudal state of Matilda of Tuscany (mainly in Tuscany and Emilia region) as well as in Reims (1131), Rome, Bologna, Venice (1143) and Chiusi. He flourished in the second quarter of the twelfth century. He died on 10 August around the middle of the 12th century as bishop of Chiusi in Tuscany. Little else is known about him.

He is sometimes incorrectly referred to as Franciscus Gratianus, Johannes Gratian, or Giovanni Graziano. For a long time he was believed to have been born around 1100, at Ficulle in Umbria, based on a chronicle of illustrious men of the 14th century attributed to an exponent of the powerful Colonna family, who had possessions in Ficulle. He was said to have become a monk at Camaldoli and then taught at the monastery of St. Felix in Bologna and devoted his life to studying theology and canon law, but contemporary scholars do not attach credibility to these traditions.

Since the 11th century, some cities of central-northern Italy such as Arezzo, Pisa, Bologna had been the centre of the study of Roman law, after the Corpus Juris Civilis was rediscovered in western Europe. In the second half of the 11th century and at the beginning of the 12th century Roman law was generally studied and applied only in the cities (seat of the diocese) in which there was an imperial Prefecture, where imperial and ecclesiastical jurists (and courts) coexisted (such as Pisa and Bologna), with mutual interference. However, from the first editorial stages of the Decretum it is clear that Gratian had little knowledge of Roman law and that he had a great sense of depth in the disputes dealt with in the ecclesiastical seats, especially in the appeal judgments dealt with in the Roman curia. Therefore, some scholars today exclude that he was trained in Justinian Roman law and that (at the beginning of his career) he worked mainly in certain cities (such as Arezzo, Pisa or Bologna) where Roman law was known and applied for years, it being plausible that he came from an episcopal city in which all jurisdiction, both civil and ecclesiastical, was dealt with by the only court present: the ecclesiastical one. Perhaps also for this reason he feels the need to create a legal work to be applied only in ecclesial courts and only for cases relating to canon law, putting an end to the mixture between civil and ecclesiastical jurisdictions. It is no coincidence that Dante Alighieri writes that he helped "one and the other forum", that is, he separated the canonical jurisdiction from the civil one. Gratian's work was an attempt, using early scholastic method, to reconcile seemingly contradictory canons from previous centuries. Gratian quoted a great number of authorities, including the Bible, papal and conciliar legislation, church fathers such as Augustine of Hippo, and secular law in his efforts to reconcile the canons. Gratian found a place in Dante's Paradise among the doctors of the Church:

"This next flamelet issues from Gratian's smile, he who gave such help to the ecclesiastical and civil spheres as is acceptable in Paradise." He has long been acclaimed as Pater Juris Canonici (Latin: "Father of Canon Law"), a title he shares with his successor St. Raymond of Penyafort. Gratian was the father and the first teacher of the scientia nova which he himself coined: the new canon law or ius novum. Many of his disciples have become highly renowned canonists.

Textual history
The vulgate version of Gratian's collection was completed at some point after the Second Council of the Lateran of 1139, which it quotes. Research by Anders Winroth established that some manuscripts of an early version of Gratian's text, which differs considerably from the mainstream textual tradition, have survived. With later commentaries and supplements, the work was incorporated into the Corpus Juris Canonici. The Decretum quickly became the standard textbook for students of canon law throughout Europe, but it never received any formal, official recognition by the papacy. Only the Codex Juris Canonici of 1917 put it out of use.

As late as 1997, scholars commonly set the date of completion at 1140, but this accuracy in dating is not possible after Anders Winroth's groundbreaking scholarship. Winroth's research shows that the Decretum existed in two published recensions. The first dates to sometime after 1139, while the second dates to 1150 at the latest. There are several major differences between the two recensions:
 * The first recension is a more coherent and analytical work.
 * The second recension places a much greater emphasis on papal primacy and power.
 * The second recension includes Roman law extracts taken directly from the Corpus Juris Civilis, whereas the first recension does not demonstrate substantial familiarity with Roman jurisprudence.

These differences led Winroth to conclude that Roman law was not as far developed by 1140 as scholars had previously thought. He has also argued that the second recension was due not to the original author of the first recension (whom he calls Gratian 1), but rather another jurist versed in Roman law. However, Winroth's thesis of two Gratians remains controversial.

This field of inquiry is hampered by ignorance of the compiler's identity and the existence of manuscripts with abbreviated versions of the text or variant versions not represented by Winroth's two recensions. One of these is the manuscript St. Gall, Stiftsbibliothek, 673 (=Sg), which some have argued contains the earliest known draft (Larrainzar's borrador) of the Decretum, but which other scholars have argued contains an abbreviation of the first recension expanded with texts taken from the second recension.

Criticism
During the reformation, individuals such as Martin Luther strongly criticized the claims of papal primacy within the Decretum. One of Luther's chief concerns surrounded Distinctio 40 (Chapter "Si papa") which reads:

"If the pope fails, and neglects fraternal salvation, if he is found useless, and remiss in his works, and moreover silent from good, which offends him more, and nevertheless leads countless peoples with him as the first slave of hell, with himself to be scourged with many plagues for eternity. No mortal may presume to rebuke the sins of this man, because he himself is to judge all."

Additional concerns  about papal primacy in the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 were raised regarding Distinctio 96 chapter 7 which reads:

"It is quite clearly shown that the pontiff cannot be bound by the secular power, which is evidently called a god by the pious prince Constantine, since it is clear that even God cannot be judged by men."

Influence
Gratian himself named his work Concordia Discordantium Canonum – "Concord of Discordant Canons". The name is fitting: Gratian tried to harmonize apparently contradictory canons with each other, by discussing different interpretations and deciding on a solution, as a judge in a case. This dialectical approach allowed for other law professors to work with the Decretum and to develop their own solutions and commentaries. These legists are known as the decretists.

"... the Concordance of Discordant Canons or Decretum served the function of giving the canonists a text like that of the Corpus Iuris Civilis for the civilians or the bible for the theologians."

These commentaries were called glosses. Editions printed in the 15th, 16th or 17th century frequently included the glosses along with the text. Collections of glosses were called "gloss apparatus" or Lectura in Decretum (see also glossator). Systematic commentaries were called Summae. Some of these Summae were soon in circulation as well and obtained the same level of fame as the Decretum itself. Early commentators included Paucapalea and Magister Rolandus. The most important commentators were probably Rufin of Bologna (died before 1192) and Huguccio (died 1210). Less well-known was the commentary of Simon of Bisignano, which consisted of the Glosses on the Decretum and the Summa Simonis.

Peter Lombard borrowed and adapted from the Decretum when discussing penance in his Sentences (c. 1150).

Importance in Western law
Because of its influence as a source of canon law, the Decretum served as an influence for 12th-century jurists in the development of Western legal systems and their rules of evidence, which in canon law (including in the Decretum) did not include trial by ordeal and by battle.

The same author, Woods, called the Decretum "the first comprehensive and systematic legal treatise in the history of the West, and perhaps in the history of mankind – if by 'comprehensive' is meant the attempt to embrace virtually the entire law of a given polity, and if by 'systematic' is meant the express effort to codify that law as a single body, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole." The Decretum made a direct contribution to the development of Western law in areas that it dealt with such as marriage, property and inheritance. Specific concepts preferred included consent for marriage, and wrongful intent in determining whether a certain act constituted a crime. The Corpus Juris Civilis and Digesta were 'comprehensive' and preceded it, and so did the 'systematic' Institutes but covered only 'private law'.

title: Decretum Gratiani


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Talk:Technocriticism

Closed deletion listing
This article was listed for deletion on 11 April, 2005. The discussion was closed with the result of no consensus. This article will not be deleted. You can view the discussion, which is no longer live: Votes_for_deletion/Technocriticism. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 21:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article is way too technical
This isn't intended as a flame but as constructive criticism. I think this article is very opaquely written, I think the root cause is that the field of Science & Tech studies is hugely insular. It seems that your intended audience is one-another; surely as a critique of scientists, your intended audience should be scientists?! As a scientist attempting to gain some perspective through Science and Technology studies (which seems to be essentially a humanities discipline), I have found most texts to be very unclearly written, basically aimed at other members of the community. Widen your possible audience and you might widen your influence! --zrenneh 21:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It uses too much jargon and is very off-putting - very unencyclopedic. What is a "social prosthetic"? What the ****does the following sentence mean?
 * While technocultural theory and technoethical discourse are distinguishable from one another and irreducible to one another, technocriticism often analyzes associations, tensions, and interdependencies between them.

 * I deleted the sentence to which you objected. I don't think it is really that difficult to understand that two related analytic modes are definitively different but interestingly interdepenent, but if many people object to the sentence it may look clear to me because of bias or something.  As for "social prosthetic," that is a misreading of the sentence which I have now tried to make clearer.  The sentence describes an analytic perspective which focuses on the reality of artifacts as practices (personal and social) rather than objects.  Both the words social and prosthetic refered to "practices."  Hopefully that is clearer in the revised sentence.  --Dale Carrico

 * We should just delete sentences like that if no-one can interpret them. ··gracefool |☺ 03:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I've tried to clean up some of this language. Wikipedia is supposed to be a generally useful resource and so it makes sense we would strive to ensure that the language is as accessible as is compatible with the subject matter.  However, before you assume that *no-one* can interpret this entry, read the work of some of the scholars who are listed as exemplars of technocriticism.  I doubt people who actually read and are interested in the work of Katherine Hayles, Donna Haraway, Mark Poster, Bruno Latour, et al. would have any trouble interpreting this entry in the least. --Dale Carrico

 * Thank you, Dr. Carrico. I've always done so clean up. I hope you approve. --Loremaster 00:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Include this view, please
Well, I think that (sadly) most people in Western Europe and USA (and other higly-developped countries, too) are all becoming dependant on technology. And, as I said before, dependance is worse than independence. Someone should be free to chose. But, if you say to your pals: “I used to like computers, but, since I found the Internet, I got fed up with them…”, they will look at you as you are an idiot. That shouldn’t be like that! Thanks God, that in Eastern Europe people are still much more natural than Eastern Europeans. Well, don’t get me wrong, I like Eastern European people, but they are unable to ‘unplug’ from all that tech stuff. 213.240.234.212 08:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a point of view that would need to be supported by a academic source. See the NPOV policy for more details. --Loremaster 00:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

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Lancelot Holland

Vice-Admiral Lancelot Ernest Holland, (13 September 1887 – 24 May 1941) was a Royal Navy officer who commanded the British force in the Battle of the Denmark Strait in May 1941 against the German battleship Bismarck. Holland was lost when he stayed at his post during the sinking of HMS Hood.

Early life
Lancelot Holland was one of six sons and a daughter of a doctor who was also a brewer for the firm Hunt Edmunds. He was born in Middleton Cheney and was raised in the Banbury area. He entered the Royal Navy on 15 May 1902. On leaving HMS Britannia in September 1903, he was drafted to the China Station to join HMS Eclipse (1894). He served in the Far East until August 1905. The latter part of his time there was spent in HMS Hampshire (1903).

Returning home, Holland saw brief service during the summer of 1908 in the Admiralty surveying ship HMS Research. However, the surveying service proved not to be Holland's forte and three years later on 14 September 1911 the young Lieutenant Holland joined HMS Excellent (shore establishment), the Royal Navy's gunnery school at Whale Island, Portsmouth to start the 'Long Course' which would qualify him as a lieutenant (G).

Having qualified as a gunnery lieutenant and gone on to take the advanced gunnery course at Greenwich, Holland spent the First World War in a teaching role aboard HMS Excellent. After the war he was promoted to commander on 31 December 1919 and captain on 30 June 1926.

During the period May 1929 to February 1931, Holland was flag captain to the 2nd Cruiser Squadron, aboard HMS Hawkins (D86). From May 1931 to September 1932, Holland headed the British Naval Mission to Greece. He was subsequently flag captain aboard the battleship HMS Revenge (06) from July 1934 to July 1935.

Senior officer
After a stint as naval aide-de-camp to King George VI in 1937, Holland became Assistant Chief of Naval Staff and then, following promotion to rear admiral, commander of the 2nd Battle Squadron in January 1939. In September, following the outbreak of the Second World War, he was appointed Rear Admiral Commanding, Channel Force. He then became Admiralty representative at the Air Ministry. He was promoted to vice admiral, backdated to August 1940, after commanding Cruiser Force H during the Battle of Cape Spartivento on 27 November.

Second World War
From November 1940, Holland commanded the 18th Cruiser Squadron, serving in the Mediterranean. During the course of this command he led his cruisers in the Battle of Cape Spartivento on 27 November 1940. By this time, Holland had established himself as a gunnery specialist.

North Atlantic and nemesis
Holland's next assignment was in command of the Battlecruiser Squadron. In May 1941, the new German battleship Bismarck attempted to break out into the North Atlantic, accompanied by the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen. Their mission was to attack Allied convoys. Holland flew his flag aboard Hood, which was accompanied by the new battleship HMS Prince of Wales. On 22 May, just after midnight, Electra, Achates, Antelope, Anthony, Echo, and Icarus, escorting the Hood and Prince Of Wales, sailed to cover the northern approaches. The intention was that the force would refuel in Hvalfjord, Iceland, and then sail again to watch the Denmark Strait. On the evening of 23 May, the weather deteriorated. At 20:55, Admiral Holland aboard the Hood signalled the destroyers "If you are unable to maintain this speed I will have to go on without you. You should follow at your best speed." At 02:15 on the morning of 24 May, the destroyers were ordered to spread out at 15 mile intervals to search to the north.

At about 05:35, the German forces were sighted by the Hood and, shortly afterwards, the Germans sighted the British ships. In the ensuing Battle of the Denmark Strait the Hood suffered a catastrophic magazine explosion at 06:01 that broke the ship in half; the admiral and all but three of the crew of 1,418 were lost. One of the survivors, Ted Briggs, later stated he last saw Holland sitting in his admiral's chair, in utter dejection, making no attempt to escape from the sinking wreck.

Prince of Wales made her escape with some damage, including a hit on her bridge which killed many of her officers. One of the salvos from Prince of Wales damaged Bismarck's fuel tanks, and prompted her to make for occupied France.

Holland was posthumously Mentioned in Despatches.

Family
Holland was married to Phyllis and had one son, John, who died of polio at the age of 18 in 1936.

Holland and his family attended the Anglican parish Church of St John the Baptist at Boldre in the New Forest, Hampshire. They had a memorial to their son installed there and later a Hood Memorial Chapel was dedicated. An annual memorial service is held to remember Admiral Holland and the crew of Hood. A public house in Banbury, the Admiral Holland, was named after him. This pub was demolished in May 2017.

title: Lancelot Holland


text:
Aspen Mountain (ski area)

Aspen Mountain (often called by its former name of Ajax among locals) is a ski area in the western United States, located in Pitkin County, Colorado, just outside and above the city of Aspen. Situated on the north flank of Aspen Mountain (for which it is named), its summit elevation is 11212 ft above sea level. Aspen Mountain forms the end of Richmond Ridge, a long ridge that extends 10 mi south at approximately 11000 ft to join the main spine of the Elk Mountains.

Founded  in 1946 by Walter Paepcke, Aspen was the first ski area venture of the Aspen Skiing Company. It is one of four adjacent ski areas operated by the company as part of the Aspen/Snowmass complex. At only 673 acre, it is somewhat small compared to other ski areas, especially compared to the much larger nearby Snowmass ski area, and retains a unique cultural flavor that harkens to the earlier days of recreational skiing in the state. The ski area is located within the White River National Forest and is operated under a permit from the U.S. Forest Service. It has three restaurants on the mountain; two are on top (one is a club that only allows members), and one is mid-mountain.

History and description
Before 1946, the mountain had been the site of skiing, which used a crude boat lift and jeep trails up the back side of the mountain on Midnight Mine Road. In 1941, Aspen's first national downhill and slalom championships were held March 8–9. Fritz Benedict visited Aspen for the first time, the father of the 10th Mountain Hut and Trail System. The foundation of the ski area in 1946 was accomplished with the installation of the single-seat chairlift, Lift-1. When it began operations on December 14, 1946, it was the longest chairlift in the world.

Many of the first employees were veterans of the U.S. Army's 10th Mountain Division, which had trained in Colorado at Camp Hale north of Leadville, including Friedl Pfeifer of Austria and Pete Seibert. Before the war, Pfeifer had headed the ski school at Sun Valley and did the same at Aspen; Seibert was a member of the Aspen ski patrol who later founded Vail Mountain in 1962. In its fourth season, Aspen hosted the 1950 World Championships, the first world championships held outside of Europe, and the first since 1939.

Lift-1 ran until 1972, when it was replaced by two double chairlifts, Shadow Mountain (commonly referred to as 1A) and Ruthie's. Access to the mountain was radically changed in 1986 with the installation of the Silver Queen Gondola, which ascends to the summit up the east side of the area with a vertical rise of 3267 ft. The area's lifts include 1 high-speed quad, one high-speed triple, two quads, and three doubles.

The gondola is one of two lifts, along with the Little Nell chairlift, which ascends from Gondola Plaza in the heart of downtown Aspen. The configuration allows visitors to ascend the mountain from the town center and ski down the Little Nell Run back into town. The mountainside contains hidden and open remains of the intense silver mining activity from the Colorado Silver Boom in the late 1880s and early 1890s. In January 2001, it was decided to end Aspen Mountain's long-time ban on snowboarding. However, as a courtesy to season-pass holders, the resort was not officially opened to snowboarders until April 1, 2001.

The longest run is 3 mi, and the lift capacity is 10,755 riders per hour. The average annual snowfall is 300 in, and it has snowmaking capabilities of 210 acre, approximately one-third of the area. The mountain is considered moderate to difficult, with no "green" (beginner) runs. Its sister mountain, Aspen Highlands, also has no beginner terrain as of December 2017. Novice skiers must go to Snowmass or Buttermilk. Approximately 26% of the terrain is considered expert. The season on the mountain ranges from late November to early April. It is typically the last area, along with nearby Snowmass, in the resort complex to close for the winter.

The ski area has a unique "homespun" culture that dates from its early foundation as part of the Utopian social experiment in Aspen created by Walter Paepcke in the 1940s, retaining somewhat of a throwback culture in comparison to the other three areas of the complex. The culture is reflected in the numerous homemade memorials and tributes that dot the trees of mountains created in honor of famous personages such as John Denver and Hunter S. Thompson.

It is rumored that under the Bell Mountain lift on Aspen Mountain was the home of the first Panty tree of bras, panties, thongs, and Mardi Gras necklaces as early as the late 1950s.

Gorsuch Haus and Lift Lodge One
A small lodging, shopping, and residential development is under development near the ski lift at Aspen Mountain. The ski lift itself will be moved closer to town. Originally proposed by a group with Aspen creds, it narrowly passed a vote in Aspen. However, it was soon sold, at a substantial profit, to the OKO Group, an international real estate development company owned by Vladislav Doronin, a controversial transaction.

Terrain and Lifts

 * Trails: 76
 * North: 50%
 * East: 27%
 * West: 23%

 * Aspen Mountain has 9 lifts.

Purple highlight indicates a secondary lift, meaning it only runs on weekends and holidays or as backup lifts if the gondola is down.

title: Aspen Mountain (ski area)


text:
Talk:Kingfisher Red

 * Aren't the sections Growth and Expansion and Competitors sort of POV? - Binand 21:32, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * How can they use the common man as a mascot?

 * The Common Man not the common man ;) --Plane Mad 12:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Poor Services
I traveled all over india using Air Deccan, and the service was horrible. bad food no proper seating arragement. it was totally horrid —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.247.147.198 (talk) 17:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

 * This is an encyclopedia and not a forum for discussing your opinions on the subject. Kindly refrain from making such asinine comments.--203.171.245.41 16:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC) Tera Baap

A strange point: While booking online in the website of air deccan, one can only use Indian cerdit cards (!). I found no way to purchase an air deccan ticket online using my mastercard!

Fair use rationale for Image:New simplifly deeccan logo.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Deletion
Suggest deletion of this article: Deccan / Red has been merged into Kingfisher, and is now a brand rather than a separate airline.
 * Second deletion - or at least sanitisation, so that historical info remails, but everything else should be merged with the Kingfisher Airlines article. I have already redirected the destination list link to the Kingfisher destinations article, and made a few minor changes. Jasepl (talk) 14:33, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This page should not be deleted as it contains Air Deccan's history. Trinidade (talk) 08:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We dont normally delete airline defunct airline articles as it is a history up to this point of the airline. MilborneOne (talk) 11:17, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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Article move June 2016
As Kingfisher Red was only a brand of Kingfisher Airlines and operated under the same IATA/ICAO codes, info about it belongs in the Kingfisher Airlines article. However, Simplifly Deccan/Air Deccan was a fully separate airline from 2003 till 2008, operating under its own IATA/ICAO codes. Thus it needs its own article, like how US Airways has its own article even after the American merger. - ✈Sunnya343✈ (talk) 19:48, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kingfisher Red


text:
User talk:Singo~enwiki

A tag has been placed on Eskimo (artist), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article appears to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not assert the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that you can assert the notability of the subject, you may contest the deletion. To do this, add  on the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag) and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm the subject's notability under Wikipedia guidelines.

For guidelines on specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria for biographies, for web sites, for bands, or for companies. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. -FisherQueen (Talk) 17:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
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Renamed
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title: User talk:Singo~enwiki


text: User talk:71.100.188.59

title: User talk:71.100.188.59


text: Category:History of Wiltshire

title: Category:History of Wiltshire


text:
Talk:Filmjölk

Article name
Viili is definitely NOT the same as yogurt or the same as the Swedish variety. They all use different yeasts, molds, fungus, or bacteria as starter for the culture.

Villi is specific to Finland and, although Filmjölk is similar, and many Swedes do eat viili, it is definitely not the same thing and does not belong in the category of Swedish foods. I does belong to the cultured milk products category (it does seem that there is a wide enough variety of products in this category to warrant that topic, particularly from a scientific standpoint) and also to the Finnish foods category since it is, in Finnish communities both inside and outside of Finland, seen as an important food reflecting Finnish tradition and heritage. My own ancestors soaked slips in viili, dried them, and packed them in their luggage to bring with them across the ocean to America. There the dried starter was then used to continue daily viili-making in this country.

Read an article on viili here

There is a chart showing starters on this page:

Here is a link to purchase starter cultures:

Crowdesign (talk) 19:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

If 'Filmjölk' is a form of 'Fil' then should the name of the article (that is mainly about Fil and it's variants) not be Fil? Ciraric 20:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't know if there's an answer in the (confused) text below, but 'Fil' is just shorthand for 'Filmjölk'. JöG 16:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * ... Or maybe not, since the article claims the opposite. JöG 16:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

filmjölk is also often eaten with crushed knäckebröd (still large chunks) in especially the northen part of sweden.

 * Ah yes, good comment. I missed that even thought that is how I usually eat it too. And I live in south Sweden. I of course added it to the text. With link to crisp bread. :))
 * --Davidgothberg 23:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

This comment cut and pasted from the talk page of sour milk:

Avoid non-English titles, especially those with characters not found on the keyboards of English-speaking countries; this is the English Wikipedia, after all. Do not claim a general Nordic food as exclusively Swedish. --Vuo 22:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Vuo, it seams you moved the page to sour milk and "vandalised" it in an attempt to make it more international. But you should know that in english "sour milk" mainly means milk gone bad. And if you spell it "soured milk" it means any kind of fermented milk including yoghurt, kephir and so on. (Note the difference between sour and soured!)

 * This page is about the products sold under the different "fil" names and how we eat them in Sweden and so on. The page was started out due to a red link in the page Cuisine of Sweden and for instance hopefully can be of aid to foreigners travelling to Sweden. (And any one else curious about the Cuisine of Sweden.) I think it would be silly to only write informative articles about Swedish food directed to foreigners in Swedish and place them on the Swedish wikipeda. I don't demand that tourists study Swedish before they travel to Sweden. (Something which seems to be a common demand in Finland. Damn you if you try to buy a tram/trolley ticket in Helsinki and don't speak Finnish.) It was not and is not my intention to claim it to be a Swedish "invention". Filmjölk probably was invented/discovered many thousands of years ago, long before Sweden became Sweden, and perhaps even before any humans moved to Sweden!

 * There is no such thing as an "international" filmjölk. If you want to write an article about soured milk in general, then you should remember that it includes yoghurt and kephir etc. And note that in many other countries soured milks such as yoghurt and kephir are sold pasteurised which means your internationalisation of the paragraphs about bacterias sold alive is plain wrong.

 * If you want to write an article about the similar product you have in Finland and how you prefer to eat it there, then do so and put under it's proper name (which I guess would be piimä / piima). And of course link to it from Cuisine of Finland.

 * Regarding use of "non english" characters: For the convenience of people who don't know how to make an ö on their keyboard I allready had a redirect from Filmjolk. Just like is the case with the article on the finnish malt porridge Mämmi / Mammi.

 * Regarding the bacterias used in filmjölk: I intentially avoided mentioning which bacterias are used since in Sweden fil is sold with MANY different kinds of bacterias, not all even being of the same family as the original filmjölk bacterias. And new types of bacterias are being added all the time. For instance right now genetically modified bacterias that produces medicines are going through the tests for being allowed to be sold as medicin. And that medicin is intended to be sold under some kind of "fil" name and eaten just like we are used to eat fil...

 * So I reinstated the original article about filmjölk and I suggest you keep away from it. How would you feel if I as a Swede went berserk on the pages about Cuisine of Finland?
 * --Davidgothberg 23:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I think the Finnish name is viili, not piimä. Piimä ("surmjölk" in Swedish) is thinner fermented milk, which is typically drunk as a beverage. In contrast, viili is thicker, and is eaten like yoghurt. I'm a native Finnish speaker so I should know these things, but can a native Swedish speaker also confirm this?   — J I P | Talk 09:25, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Sour milk and sour whole milk are valid English terms. What we would need is a native English speaker, not nationalistic bickering. Davidgothberg isn't certainly helping. It's similar to writing an article like this: "Hampurilainen is a kind of Finnish hamburger. It was invented by Hesburger, and ... etc." Wikipedia isn't a travel guide. --Vuo 18:16, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I'd say neither of you are helping. David, your criticism is not altogether constructive, and I have point out that you need to stay civil and refrain from personal attacks. Even if you are right about some things, you have no excuse for escalating such a minor dispute in this way. Try to reason calmly and rationally instead.
 * Vuo, you're making claims that are completely unsupported and could have been easily checked with just a simple Google search. Your "hampurilainen"-example is not valid, since it's merely a corporate name for a slight variation of a basic hamburger. Filmjölk has a much longer history, is quite distinct from similar fermented dairy products and deserves its own article just like kefir. It's no more strange than keeping haggis and pölsa seperate. Considering that Swedish and Finnish cuisine have intermingled due to cultural influence, I suggest that viili be mentioned in this article alongside filmjölk, since they seem very similar.
 * Peter Isotalo 23:18, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm an American, a native English speaker who has spent some time in Sweden. When I was there, and was offered Filmjolk, it was never presented in English as "Hey, want some sour milk on your muslix?"  It was always presented as Filmjolk.  I remember it as Filmjolk.  "Sour milk" means something different to me in English.  It just makes me think of milk gone bad.  Just my two cents.  --Holdek (talk)  23:50, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * I think the reason for my confusion is differences between Finland and Sweden. In Finland, piimä is called surmjölk in Swedish, and viili is called fil. I have never seen "filmjölk" used anywhere in Finland. Maybe in Sweden filmjölk is piimä, the same as surmjölk, and fil is the same fil in Finland, i.e. viili? Could someone who lives in Sweden confirm this?   — J I P | Talk 07:59, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, it could be pitkäviili, which was sold in the 90's, but haven't seen that since then. It's more fluid than viili, sold in cartons, but ropy like viili. --Vuo 20:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

 * JIP: In Sweden "fil" and "filmjölk" is exactly synonymous. "fil" is simply short for "filmjölk". Nothing else. I find it confusing that the Finland-Swedish makes a difference between fil and filmjölk...

 * No, Finland-Swedish doesn't make a difference between fil and filmjölk. Finland-Swedish doesn't use "filmjölk". This Wikipedia article was the first time I had heard of the word. Finland-Swedish makes a difference between surmjölk (drink) and fil (food). I was asking if Sweden-Swedish makes a difference between fil and filmjölk.   — J I P | Talk 04:15, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Most of the time when people say fil, they mean filmjölk. However, there are other types of fil. Långfil is hardly sold in the southern part of Sweden, and in the north it is getting less popular... it is a kind of fil with harder consistency than filmjölk, almost elastic (yuck!) I ate it as a kid, I almost can't understand that. I guess most other kinds of fil can be referred to as filmjölk, but långfil can not. /Habj 03:13, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh, I see it is mentioned in the article... but in a wrong way. Långfil is not long filmjölk. It is never referred to as filmjölk. I'll correct that.
 * I think we should realise that there is no possibility to draw lines and say what names on products from different countries are the same, and what are different - too many variants along the axis, and unfortunately not just one axis. Maybe it is better then to have a page on all soured milk products that can not be defined clearly enough to have a page on their own, like yoghurt. /Habj 12:33, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Clarification: I suggest a redirect to soured milk, and description of the concepts fil, filmjölk and långfil plus other - from an international perspective - minor variants of fermented milk products there. /Habj 12:41, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I am thinking since we don't know which of the Finnish ones is the most similar to the standard filmjölk in Sweden we should change the text in the article to "In Finland it is known as "viili" or "piimä"." Until someone with experience from both countries soured milk variants can tell which is most similar. But actually, I don't find it that important since there now are so many different variants of fil sold in Sweden that it wouldn't surprise me if both viili and piimä similar variants are available here. I mean, if you really want to know the exact details of it come to Sweden and taste the 20 or so variants of it sold here! You know, I find the difference between some of those variants to be almost as big as the difference between standard/traditional filmjölk and yoghurt. So it is really hard or even impossible to define exactly what filmjölk is. --Davidgothberg 23:41, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, I could of course travel to Sweden and buy some of your filmjölk, but the only problem is, I don't like fermented milk products. I stopped eating fil when I was a child, and I have never liked surmjölk. So your idea of referring to both terms until the confusion is resolved sounds fine.   — J I P | Talk 04:15, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Ah, after carefully rereading what you wrote JIP I realise that fil/viili in Finland seems to be refering to the thicker kind. So most likely viili = filmjölk/fil in Sweden. Your surmjölk/piimä then probably is more similar to the German sauermilch which is much thinner (and thus more suitable to drink then eat with a spoon). So I'll leave viili for now in the text. I have to remember to try the different ones next time I go to Finland. (I love to go dance in Finland, best dancers and dance places in the world it seems!:))
 * --Davidgothberg 20:49, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

After a little googling, checking of interwiki links and the help of a nice Finland-Swede describing the content of fi:Piimä, it is obvious that piimä is not fil or filmjölk. Piimä is buttermilk, in Swedish kärnmjölk. Most probably, viili is a very similar product to filmjölk - at least for sure it is a kind of fil. The best way to find out the precise relationship would be to check the species of bacteria - in case you come across Streptococcus lactis it is the same as Lactococcus. I am sure they eat fil also in Norway and Denmark, by the way. If I could move this page to fil I would do it, since filmjölk is a kind of fil, but that space is occupied - and really I think this should be included in a more general page on soured milk products. Or maybe this page should be transformed into Soured milk products of Sweden, to include gräddfil (a bit like smetana) etc. I guess it would be possible to create a page on Nordic fil/viili, also, if someome is interested in doing that. Naming it would be an interesting task, though. / Habj 20:46, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I suggest moving the page to Fil (yoghurt) and changing Fil from a redirect into a disambig. Ciraric 19:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Moved to fil (milk product). Fil already was a disambig. // habj 06:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I propose moving this page back to Filmjölk and making Fil (milk product) a redirect to Filmjölk. Rationale:

 * fil (milk product) has different meanings depending on if you're a Swede or a Finland Swede. For a Finland Swede, fil (which is viili in Finnish) is the same as filbunke in Sweden.  (See the text below the table in the subsection Milk products in Swedish in Finland for why viili and filmjölk should remain as separate articles.)  For a Swede, fil is the short name for filmjölk, a product which doesn't exist in Finland Swedish or Finland.
 * This article is about the Swedish product filmjölk and not primarily about filbunke; filbunke is a type of filmjölk according to the Swedish dairies.
 * Using the term filmjölk will avoid confusing Finland Swedes about the article's topic.
 * Although some have claimed otherwise, according to all of the Swedish dairies and Swedish dictionaries, långfil is a variant of filmjölk.
 * There is no reason why gräddfil, a product similar to but not the same as sour cream, couldn't be covered in this article since it is also made with fil culture, even though it is not normally classified as a type of filmjölk (people don't normally eat gräddfil for breakfast or between meals). The Swedish dairies classify it is a type of cream or a cooking product.
 * Even though filmjölk is also the name for the original form of filmjölk – 3% milk that has been treated with fil culture – that doesn't mean that mellanfil and lättfil are not forms of filmjölk simply because they are made from 1.5% and 0.5% milk. The same goes with the rest of the products that are called *fil or fil*.
 * fil culture is a word I made up for syrningskultur (used by Arla), which literally translates to souring culture, so that shouldn't be an excuse for keeping fil as the article's name.

Changing the article's name would also mean that the word fil would need to be replaced with filmjölk in most (but not all) places in the article. I'm happy to make those changes.

How about a time limit of two weeks for comments and objections?

–panda 19:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Just a note from a native English speaker (who had a recent conversation with a Swedish friend that brought me to this article).

Sour Milk or Soured Milk, or even the term Fermented Milk will all draw a different conclusion from the average English speaker. Sour Milk is an inherently bad description since it implies gone bad. She asked me what to call it and I told her just to say Yogurt with a different taste, as that is apparently what it's closest too.

I believe Fil or Filmjölk would be the preferred name, and perhaps more emphasis for English speakers that it is a Yogurt with apparently different bacteria used for fermentation.

- Brett Allen (Custodis)

122.148.193.244 14:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Since there weren't any objections to moving the page from Fil (milk product) back to Filmjölk after 2 weeks, I've made the change. panda 05:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Filmjölk?
If filmjölk is piimä, then its title should not be in a foreign language, because there are English terms, such as cultured buttermilk or sour milk. Maybe the article could be there for some country-specific customs, but not as a general article. Again, if it is Swedish, then it should not contain references to Finnish or German terms, because then these products are different.

See here and

 * The same discussion is being held under the section above. /Habj 12:33, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Question
Is it common to ferment filmjölk at home? FreplySpang (talk) 01:21, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Not that I heard of. Perhaps they do that up in north Sweden where they by tradition eat fil in more different ways. But down here in south Sweden where I live I have not heard anyone doing it. Although I know some people that used to make their own yoghurt back in the 60's and 70's when the plain yoghurt without fruit was more expensive and only sold in very small packs! (They of course used the small expensive yoghurt packs as starter culture to set a big bowl of warm milk over night.) Of course, once upon a time when most people were farmers and most milk products were not centrally processed of course farmers made their own fil.
 * --Davidgothberg 01:31, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Not common, but not completely unheard of either. My grandma did, my sister did sometimes... yes, I'm from the north. /Habj 03:13, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * My mom used to make filbunke when I was a kid, and we lived near Karlstad, not all that far up north.193.11.202.125 17:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Milk products in Swedish in Finland
Surmjölk in Finland is piimä in Finnish and is what I use as buttermilk when making biscuits, etc. Fil as a word in Swedish in Finland refers solely to a more goopy, glue-like consistency of viili that is sold in small tubs (it's never drunk) like yoghurt. AFAIK the term for it in Sweden is långfil. I've never come across filmjölk in Finland and it was always one of the "complaints" that Swedes had when they came to visit. To make life more interesting then, there's also gräddfil or kermaviili in Finnish, which is a sour-cream-like product. And then there's also smetana and yoghurt. And for what it's worth, viili is not disappearing from the supermarket shelves in Finland. I think this article needs to be drastically improved as it is mixing a number of different milk products into one article and does not discuss the differences between Sweden and Finland (incl. the differences in terms for them, popularity, etc.). -Yupik 16:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

 * As has been extensively discussed on this page before, the scope of this article is kind of weird. The current version looks like "youghurt-like milk products in Sweden"; it pretty much includes versions usually eaten for breakfast but not those used for cooking. I am not sure an article comparing Sweden and Finland makes much sense either. I mean, what about Norway, Denmark, Netherlands... most countries have some kind of sour milk products eaten with spoon for breakfast.
 * If we begin with the international picture rather than focussing entirely on Sweden and Finland, the main article to my understanding actually is yoghurt. Neither Finns nor Swedes refer to their traditional milk products as yoghurt, we reserve that word for outlandish yoghurt types, but if I've gotten it right yoghurt in English actually is the generic term for breakfast type milk products. My first suggestion would be to merge both this article and viili into yoghurt.
 * (Btw piimä is butter milk in English, usually called kärnmjölk in Swedish - at least in Sweden. "Kärna" is the butter churn where you make butter, leaving the butter milk as a kind of rest product. "Surmjölk" is an older word, kept in dialects here and there that might refer to butter milk but equally common to yogurt-fil-products, maybe especially homemade ones. It is not commonly used in standard Swedish of today, not in Sweden at least.) // habj 07:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Kärnmjölk refers to a specific type of surmjölk here and is called kirnupiimä in Finnish, i.e., "churn-buttermilk". It tastes different, too, although not enough that it prevents me from using it to make buttermilk recipes from the States with it. I'm not sure that combining them all into one big article under yoghurt would be the best idea since the yoghurt article will become overwhelmingly large. But mention could be made of the different kinds with links to the articles then themselves for more detailed information on the process and food itself. Perhaps it would be better to create a head article entitled Fermented milk products and put yoghurt, etc., under that with links to the respective articles. -Yupik 08:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Below is a summary of what various fermented milk products are called in Finnish, Finland Swedish, Swedish, and English, according to the following sources: The different words used in Finland Swedish and Sweden Swedish help explain the confusion over what a Finnish product would be called in Swedish and why a Sweden Swede and Finland Swede have different opinions about what fil and filmjölk are.
 * Research Institute for the Languages of Finland (in Finland Swedish)
 * Finfood News Service
 * a Finland Swede
 * the above comments

 * The term filmjölk does not exist in Finland Swedish. This may be because filmjölk doesn't exist in Finland according to the Research Institute for the Languages of Finland, Finfood News Service (states: piimä is a Finnish speciality not found outside Finland; thus piimä is not filmjölk), Yupik, JIP, etc.
 * Yupik's description of fil / viili appears to confirm that those terms refer to filbunke (fil in small bowls). The Research Institute for the Languages of Finland confirms that fil in Finland Swedish is filbunke in Swedish.  It would also make sense that fil / viili is filbunke since Valio, a Finnish dairy company, sells filbunke in Sweden.  Also, filbunke has been called filmjölksbunke in the past (see SAOB).
 * If someone who can read Finnish can find out what ingredients and bacteria are used to make piimä, then we can confirm if it is a watery version of filmjölk or not.
 * Calling filmjölk a type of yogurt is a misnomer. In many countries, yogurt is very well defined as milk fermented with L. bulgaricus and S. thermophilus.  It is also a thermophilic fermented milk (fermented at room temperature in Bulgaria) whereas filmjölk is a mesophilic fermented milk (fermented at room temperature in Sweden, much lower than Bulgaria).  It would be more accurate to call filmjölk a type of cultured buttermilk, if you must compare it with a known product in English, or a type of fermented milk or cultured milk.  Thus it does not make sense to merge this article with the yogurt article.
 * It doesn't make sense to merge this article with the viili article since viili is filbunke in Sweden Swedish, which is a single variant of filmjölk. The vice versa is also true.  It doesn't make sense to merge the viili article with this article since there are many variants of viili in Finland that are not found in Sweden.  Viili may have started as a Swedish product, according to Valio, but the Finns have made it into their own specialty product.

Furthermore, långfil, also known as långmjölk, is a type of filmjölk (see the filmjölk talk page on the Swedish wiki). If there is interest, I can translate the relevant text to English. My hypothesis for the naming scheme: Långfiil may have been called långfilmjölk at one point in time and since that's a pretty long word, got shorted to långfil and långmjölk, with långfil being the one chosen by Arla when they started to market their product in 1965, maybe because it was the shorter name and maybe to maintain a uniform naming convention: mellanfil, lättfil, långfil. Hence, långfil became the more popular term. (Mellanfilmjölk and långfilmjölk are too long to fit on a label without having to split the name up into two lines, which I can image was the reason for using mellanfil or långfil instead. Besides långmjölk being longer than långfil, they couldn't use långmjölk if they wanted a uniform naming convention since that would mean mellanfilmjölk would be called mellanmjölk, and that name is used for 1.5% milk.)

– panda 00:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Canadian Dairy Commission
Just for the record, the text about filmjölk on the Canadian Dairy Commission's website Fermented Milk Products and the text in this article were identical or nearly identical before I started to make changes to it on 30 June 2007. Example:

The text on the Wikipedia site appears to predate the text on the CDC's site. I have since altered the text here quite a lot. apanda 19:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

"Extra healthy?"
The article's title categorizes several varieties of "extra healthy" filmjölk. It isn't clear what sort of health claims are being made in the article, or that any filmjölk is healthy and that these versions are more so. Some explanation of these health claims, with appropriate citations, might belong here. - Smerdis of Tlön 21:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

 * The manufacturers call those types of filmjölk healthy. So for lack of a better name, I chose "extra healthy variants" as the subsection name. The last sentence in the first paragraph is about the health benefits of filmjölk: it "has a stabilising effect on the stomach and intestines."  (ref still needed)  The description of each filmjölk variant in the extra healthy section states what is considered extra healthy about them (they contain probiotics for the most part), which is why its currently labeled "extra healthy".  All of the health claims are cited in the "Name" (or Fermentation culture) column but I can copy the citations to the "description" column if you think that would be more clear.  Also, if you have a better suggestion for what those variants should be called, I'd be interested in hearing them.  panda 22:28, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Home-made filmjölk with carnivorous plants as starter
This really is interesting. I heard that Carl von Linné first wrote about it in Flora Lapponica. If no lactic acid bacteria are on the plant (which would be a obvious explanation especially as plants are the natural habitat of those bacteria), I can only imagine that it is bacteria synthesising protease, which have the effect. I understood that the resulting fil can be used as a starter without further need of the butterwort plant.--91.96.47.80 09:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

First flavoured filmjölk?
The article claims Arla invented the first flavoured filmjölk in 1997. The source is Arla itself. I recall a probably earlier flavoured by NNP (I think) that was flavoured with blackcurrant. However they exploded so it was recalled. // Liftarn (talk)

 * "However they exploded so it was recalled." ???  What exploded?
 * It's possible that NNP (now Milko) made a flavoured filmjölk before Arla, probably with blackcurrant (svartvinbär) or maybe even cloudberry (hjortron). I've updated the sentence to make it clear that it is about Arla's first flavoured filmjölk and not all flavoured filmjölk.  Thanks for noticing!  –panda (talk) 17:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Which language was intended?
The table of "filmjölk" variants contains "fi-se: Fil[40]". The ISO code "fi-se" means "Finnish as spoken in Sweden", but the link goes to Finland Swedish (sv_fi) instead. (212.247.11.156 (talk) 08:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC))

Dickmilch?
This article includes a link to Dickmilch, and so do its counterparts on the Swedish and Finnish Wikipedias. However, the German article itself includes wikilinks to soured milk and its equivalent in other languages. Also, (I'm not propagating this as a reliable source, but) the last comment in this strongly suggests that "Dickmilch" in German is not the same thing as filmjölk, and that "filmjölk/villi" is unübersetzbar - untranslatable.

Should that German wikilink be removed, perhaps? Or am I missing something? --Kuaichik (talk) 03:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Nobody has answered the above question in almost a month, so I think I'll just go ahead and remove the German wikilink. --Kuaichik (talk) 03:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, now it's been added back in, because I failed to notice that (apparently) filmjölk can also mean just "sour milk" (or at least, the article soured milk includes a wikilink to sv:Filmjölk)! Below I am posting the edit summary used for adding the German wikilink back in:
 * I belive Dickmilch is close enough to filmjölk (the word is used in both a narrow and a wider sense - i.e. including variants - in swedish). --Kuaichik (talk) 04:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Surmjölk is not the same as Filmjölk!
The article says "Swedish-speaking Finns usually use the word surmjölk, which is the older name for filmjölk (also in Sweden) or piimä (in Finnish)". This is not correct. Surmjölk is a different product that is drunk from a glass!

In Finland the Finland-Swedish word FIL (finnish: VIILI) is used instead of FILMJÖLK

SURMJÖLK (finnish: Piimä or Piimämaito) is a different product. It has a more sour taste than Filmjölk and the consistency is less thick. It is usually drunk from a glass (as an alternative to regular milk) and not eaten with spoon like Filmjölk. Pnnielsen (talk) 15:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

 * That depends on where you come from. I'm from Götaland, Sweden (Geatland). Before Arla started to market filmjölk nationwide, it was called surmjölk here and (I think) in the rest of West Sweden. The word fil was in West Sweden used for what is now called filbunke, the word långfil (or sometimes ostfil) was in West Sweden used for, you guessed it, the West Swedish version of långfil. I have been told that the word filmjölk is a recent invention of Arla, made up by them to be marketed over all of Sweden, since the name surmjölk meant spoiled milk (blåmjölk in Geatish) in the area around Stockholm and Uppsala (where they didn't eat or drink surmjölk before Arla introduced it, but filbunke) and the word fil couldn't be used in West Sweden since it meant filbunke. Thin "drinkable" soured milk was/is called surdricka (or rather "surdräcka") or more often (at least in writing) kvass. The word kvass was introduced by Russian prisoners of war working in West Sweden; West Swedish kvass can not only be made from milk, but also from fermented bread, grains (some versions made of grains is also called svagdricka, all over Sweden) or legumes. From the descriptions of buttermilk, I think it is the same as what was called "mys" in West Sweden, but mys haven't been part of the West Swedish diet for a very long time.
 * Side-note: As far as I know, filmjölk/surmjölk wasn't part of the traditional kitchen in Southern (until recently Danish) Sweden and therefore wasn't called anything there.--217.210.238.151 (talk) 13:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Whats the difference between filmjolk and buttermilk? Should this be merged into buttermilk
So, is there and difference between filmjolk and buttermilk? It seems like these articles should be merged but maybe I am missing something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Litch (talk • contribs) 07:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No, there's definitely a difference. I'll drink buttermilk, but I won't touch filmjölk for anything :D -Yupik (talk) 20:42, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Somehwat in keeping with this topic I did see fit to remove the statement declaring something to the effect that it is not the same thing as buttermilk. The entire article preceeding, and the fact that the article exists independent of buttermilk would preclude any indication that the two are identical, though they are undoubably allied. I removed the entire post semicolon text for the above reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.239.172 (talk) 03:51, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Merges?
It would seem that Viili is the same thing as Filmjoelk, and it should be merged into this article if this is the case. Súrmjólk is stated in this article as being the same as Filmjoelk, so it should definitely be merged into this article. 146.201.141.185 (talk) 15:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Viili is not the same thing as filmjölk. Though viili and fil are obviously related etymologically, viili is fermented with different bacteria, and tastes entirely different. Its texture is also much more gloopy than that of filmjölk, which is much more watery. Their differences are covered more extensively in the book Fermented Milks, I'll see if I can incorporate it as a source in the next couple of days. Gabbe (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

You can buy milk everywhere...
"It is often used instead of milk within the Nordic countries (and more widely available)" This sentence seems to me imply that filmjölk is more available than milk is, and that is definitely not true. You can get them at the same place, and I'd say Swedes consume more milk than filmjölk on average. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.4.129.166 (talk) 19:35, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Filmjölk