text:
User talk:Vsion/Archive02

Previous discussions:

 * Archive 1:

The Exceptional Newcomer Award

For the excellent work you have produced for Singapore-related articles since your splashing entry into wikipedia, I hereby bestow the Exceptional Newcomer Award upon you! We look forward to many more of your extraordinary edits! :D - Huaiwei 12:27, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Wah! That's a really kewl stuff...I wish I could receive a barnstar award one day...*envy* ;) Anyway, keep it up, Vsion! You sound friendly as I first met you in the page about Singaporean cuisine. :-D --Jerry Crimson Mann 20:58, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

cuisines
I'm moving them because I noticed that apparently the majority of usage is /adjective/ cuisine instead of cuisine of /noun/ (evidenced by whatlinkshere outputs for the pages), but they had been mass-moved by another user previously (User:Dmcdevit), and a lot of the redirects were left not updated. In general there was a lot of inconsistency and disorder (cf. also Talk:Cuisine) so this really looked an area that needed a helping hand. --Joy [shallot]   21:04, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the pointer - I went there and answered that. Hopefully we'll be able to come to an agreement about this. --Joy [shallot]   21:20, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your support to Hong Kong!
\(^3^)/ -- Jerry Crimson Mann 6 July 2005 13:40 (UTC)

hey hi!!!Sghan 12:18, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

new vfd
The prior VFD that you voted at ended with no consensus, a new VFD has been opened at Votes for deletion/Historical persecution by Muslims. 18:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

List of countries by infant mortality rate
Is that per 1000 live births? Also the numbers don't seem to match up with the numbers on Infant mortality. EG Sierra Leone has 284 (IM) or 162 (LOCBIMR). Of course I could be reading one of the articles wrong. CambridgeBayWeather 06:28, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Either way it's a horrible high number. CambridgeBayWeather 07:21, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Hurricane Katrina
Good work rewording, splitting, and keeping the article up to date. Your edits are most appreciated, and they're a major reason behind this article's high quality. --Tito xd 06:46, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

confirmed deaths at 100 in Harrison County Harrison County emergency officials confirmed that 100 people had died, at least 30 in the collapse of a Biloxi apartment house during the height of the storm. --hitssquad 07:50, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Speak Mandarin Campaign
Hi. Thanks for your work on this article. In future, please don't remove copyright violation notices from articles, even to develop new content. If you do this the copyright material is still present in the page's history and requires extra effort from administrators to sort out. If you want to develop a new version of an article that violates copyright it can be done at a temporary subpage (use the link from the copyright violation notice) and an administrator will move it to the main article when the copyright violation has been dealt with. Thanks! --Ngb?!? 08:32, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Maps of Singapore
I find the maps you created absolutely accurate, and maybe I will really wish to see more of them coming! Maybe some maps on the structure of the neighbourhood estates will be breathtaking. And of course applause for your work on the MRT maps, giving the MRT Stations article a little substainability for the due time. Slivester 04:12, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, certainly pleasing to hear that you will make those town maps! Singapore have an absolutely unique method of partitioning her housing district, and it will be great to have the plan laid out here. If possible, perhaps you can also work on the layout of buses in berths, in bus interchanges. Should you need resources, feel free to contact me. And about the estate infobox, I have taken your advice to include the land area and population. Lets just hope we can retrieve those informations; for now, its just To be filled in. Slivester 13:52, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Talking about maps, have you came to know of google earth? It might be a wonderful tool in our map-drawing endeavours! ;)--Huaiwei 12:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I saw what you show at AfD, it is pretty cool! Yes, I have it also, and just found out that the Tuas area in my locator maps are wrong. Nobody will notice that, right? Or can I claim my maps are more updated? haha.., but the resolution is amazing. Unfortunately for Sengkang, a small strip of lower resolution lies just on top of it and there are lots of clouds. For woodlands, it is almost prefect, with just two tiny patches of clouds. It will be useful, definitely --Vsion 13:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Haha..thank God I came across Google Earth just when I was desperate to illustrate them! :D Too bad some parts are still not updated thou, especially the Sengkang area you mentioned and the entire region to the West. Also, clouds cover some of our more important points, such as Raffles Place. Too bad I cant show Tampines Interchange too..haha. As for Tuas...do not worry. The satelite image is actually quite outdated...by about 2 years or more? Changi Naval Base is shown to be under construction even thou its completed long ago, for example.--Huaiwei 13:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

What software to you use to draw the map? -- Littlearea 10:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Personal non-commercial software. Also used powerpoint to do labelling. --Vsion 00:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

My comments on AfD
The reason why I make those comments is because every time a Singapore article comes up for AfD, somebody has to make the comment that the only reason somebody nominated the article is because of anti-Singapore bias, and then all of a sudden, a whole bunch of "keep" votes show up that wouldn't be keeps if the article were about any other place in the world. The Singapore voters seem to think that their country is special, and that the rules of notability which apply to evey other bus terminal, street, church, etc., in the world don't apply to Singapore. Zoe 07:15, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

"Hong Kong, China" in the Basic Law
Perhaps you'd be interested to take a look at how the use of "Hong Kong, China" is prescribed in the Basic Law: Article 116, Article 149, Article 151. :-D — Instantnood 12:33, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Please see reply at Talk:Singapore International School --Vsion 12:54, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Votes for Deletions - Ensuring your vote is counted
Hi, I thought I would just mention to you, that if a reason isn't given when you vote *some* administrators will not count your vote. I noticed in Articles for deletion/Nautilus Middle School, you didn't give a reason for your vote. I have nothing to do with the making or enforcement of this rule, but thought I would tell you, so that you can ensure you're vote is counted. Note: The reason given can be versy short, like "per above" or "what so-and-so said". It doesn't have to be long, and sometimes people give only a couple-letter abbreviations, which is fine. But, it should be something. --rob 16:44, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Hong Kong as a country?
Correct and wrong, depends on whether you're reading country as a synonym of sovereign state or not. In strict sense the two are differentiated, although sometimes they're used as synonym. Basically countries include both sovereign states and non-sovereign territories. Meanwhile, could you please elaborate a bit on what is " non-conventional naming practice " and " frustrating " ? Thanks. — Instantnood 10:20, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
 * As for entity, perhaps you may be interested to take a look at categories for deletion/Log/2005 September 8. :-) — Instantnood 10:45, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Vision, if you have not noticed, he said the following in my talkpage:

"There's no dichotomy. But if you do really want a yes-no answer, then I'll have to say yes, as in the strict sense country and sovereign state are not synonym."

In other words, he says Hong Kong is a country, and at the same time defines a "country" as inclusive of SARs. Dosent need a genious to figure out whats going on, does it? :D--Huaiwei 10:57, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm still in shock by his statement. I sincerely hope he is not breaking any subversive law. --Vsion 11:06, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

 * No problem as long as I fully acknowledge the sovereignty of the PRC over Hong Kong, and is not claiming or advocating Hong Kong as a sovereign state. :-P — Instantnood 11:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Yeah. Good luck in telling the Chinese authorities that a country is not equal to a sovereign state, even if that is technically disputable. Afterall, they will prob be asking him the questions in Chinese. I can picture him being hauled away to the firing squard yelling 不!!! 国家并非是独立的!!!.--Huaiwei 11:33, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Image:Bali blast 2005.jpg
You say that your image was made by you (Image:Bali blast 2005.jpg). If it is, are you going to give it a license? You may want to release it into the public domain by using. --  Thorpe  talk 12:20, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Done, I forgot to do it when I upload a new version. BTW, I should have put it to the Commons, how can I do it? Can someone help? --Vsion 12:26, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

contribution to Lord's Resistance Army
Hi Vsion, Thanks for your recent edits to LRA and AFDL. I'm afraid I had to remove the LRA attack you added as it didn't seem particularly notable. LRA attacks of that scale occur pretty regularly, and even the local Ugandan papers usually put them on the inside pages. Given the sweep of the article (almost 20 years at this point) it doesn't make sense to include it. Cheers,  BanyanTree 14:21, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Transclusion
Here's some boiler plate: When using template tags on talk pages, don't forget to substitute with text by adding subst: to the template tag. For example, use {{subst:test}} instead of {{test}}. This reduces server load and prevents accidental blanking of the template. Keep up the good work, though! - brenneman (t) (c)  11:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

2005 South Asia earthquake
Thank you for your contribution at 2005 South Asia earthquake. Please keep it up!!! Pradeepsomani  ( talk )

sorry to bug you....
But the locator map for Bukit Merah looks inaccurate. According to, the Bukit Merah planning area extends all the way to the sea, but according to the locator map, it looks like it covers the Tanglin area. I'm kind of confused. -- Natalinasmpf 08:45, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The map is either intended for a general area or a new town as listed in Template:New towns and estates in Singapore. But it is certainly not a planning area. For planning area, I usually indicate it in the image filename as in "Image:Ang Mo Kio Planning Area locator map.png". I will get the Bukit Merah planning area map (using your reference, thanks) and some other maps ready in a few days. Keep bugging me with these problems, I love messages! :D --Vsion 11:21, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Current events in Africa
Hey Vsion,

Just got back from the woods and saw your post over at Countering Systemic Bias. Don't know how often I'll be able to help out, but it's a great project; I've often been frustrated with the lack of Third World coverage (especially of Africa) in the Wikinews box on the main page. Keep up the good work! --Dvyost 13:43, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

My RfA
Hi Vsion. Just wanted to thank you for supporting my RfA. I hope I'm able to live up to the confidence placed in me. --Cyberjunkie | Talk 03:26, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Titoxd's RfA
Thank you for supporting me in my RfA. I never thought I would get so much support! Thanks to your help, my nomination was the 10th most supported RfA in Wikipedia history. Now, please keep an eye out on me while I learn the new tools, ok? Thanks again! Tito xd (?!?) 18:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

AFD on Clarecraft
I noticed you voted Delete in the Articles_for_deletion/Clarecraft for the very valid reason that it was simply a copy-paste from the company's website. I was not the original creator of the entry, but I've rewritten it, and I would appreciate if you'd take a look at the new article for Clarecraft and consider changing your vote. Thanks! Polotet 02:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Nanking Massacre
You may want to vote at the Nanking Massacre talk page for/against the inclusion of the explicit photo. Just to let you know, Mandel 04:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Military history of Sudan
Since the Collaboration of the Week folks are known for preferring Military Histories of countries, I nominated Military history of Sudan. It has been six days since then, and I have only received one more vote. Unless I get one more vote supporting this nomination, it will be closed tomorrow. Please add your support at WP:COTW/Military history of Sudan. Also see WP:COTW/Languages of Sudan. — BRIAN 0918 • 2005-11-7 14:56

Maria Hertogh riots
Hi, You have done some great work on the Maria Hertogh riots. Two of the images you have used in the article were listed by a user at Copyright problems/2005 October 21. But I believe you can use the images by inserting the {{Non-free fair use in}} tag and expanding the rationale you have already provided. See Fair use for more details. Also, you can try making a request for the images from the website you took the pictures from. See Boilerplate request for permission. Thanks again. --Pamri • Talk • [ Reply] 05:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Chewing gum ban and provision for personal use
Hi,

Great job on Chewing gum ban in Singapore.

In the edit dated 15:08, 7 May 2005, you written

 * There is a common misconception that chewing chewing gum is illegal in Singapore. Tourists, strolling along the popular Orchard Road, are seen chewing their Spearmint openly without any fear of penalty. The ban only restricts the import and sales of chewing gum, not on consumption. In fact, foreign visitors and returning residents are legally allowed to bring small amount of chewing gum into the country for their personal consumption. This same however does not apply to Narcotic.

I have since found the second half to be factually incorrect; there are no provisions made to import chewing gum for personal use. The chewing gum ban is absolute. I have since edited the article to reflect this details can be found in the article's talk page.—Goh wz 11:48, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Your edit is great and the email is clear about this. I was wrong previously, thanks. --Vsion 11:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Vertebral column
Hi Vsion! Could you please talk to me at your Commons user page about Image:Spinal column curvature.png? --Metju12 07:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Annabel Chong on the RGSS article
To make clear my stand on the article - I am neither a fan of Annabel Chong nor am I interested in attacking RGS. My reason for believing that she should be included under the Notable Alumni section is the same as why I believe Stefanie Sun, Kit Chan and Corrinne May should be included - because people might be interested in knowing that these notable figures once attended the school. I don't believe including Annable Chong is bad taste - I'm not sure whether you know just how notable she is in the mainstream, but in my opinion she's notable enough, worldwide, for her to be included on the list. As can be seen on the talk page, at least three other editors agree with me. I think the guy from England who came in via WP:3O proves something. He's heard of Annabel Chong, and he doesn't sound much like a porn fan either. She's mainstream enough that many people worldwide knows who she is. And I thought that was reason enough to include her on the list. -ryan-d 06:22, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Interview with LifeStyle
Hi Vsion, I'm Mun San from The Straits Times Life! and we're planning a story on Singapore Wikipedians for this Sunday's LifeStyle. I'd like to talk to you. Do you think you can drop me a line at munsan@sph.com.sg or give me a call at 63195368? Thanks!

Thank you!
Hi Vsion, Thank you very much for your support on my RfA. I was both surprised and delighted about the amount of support votes and all the kind words! If I can ever help with anything or if you have any comments about my actions as an admin, please let me know! Regards, Joann e B 14:50, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Re: Image:Azahari Husin and Noordin Mohammed Top.jpg
I have no idea who the copyright holder is - and if you don't you shouldn't be using the image - where is the evidence that it is aPD image -I haven't seen any! ) Brookie: A collector of little round things 10:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I know it is public domain, because Indonesian and Malaysian governments use it. These are mugshots of wanted terrorists, although one is dead already. You can try image-google it, , the pictures are found in many places, yet none claim or indicate copyright whatsoever. It is like the photo of Osama bin Laden, Image:FBI Bin Laden.png, clearly public domain even though we don't know the source or who took the picture. --Vsion 11:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Cnwb's RfA
Vsion, Thanks so very much for supporting my Request for Admin. The final result was 38/0/0. I'm looking forward to spending my summer holidays shut away in a darkened room, drinking G&Ts and playing with my new tools ;-) Please accept this Tim Tam as a token of my gratitude. Cnwb 22:31, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Early RFA thanks
Hi , Thank you very much for your support on my RfA. It has done very well and is currently at 67/0/2. As such, I am posting this in advance of its closure. If I can ever help with anything or if you have any comments about my actions as an admin, please let me know. Thank you once again! – NSLE  ( T + C + CVU ) 01:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Accidental change
Hi Vsion,

I've accidentally changed your personal map page when clearing the disambiguation of URA and I feel sorry about that.

HenryLi 05:50, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * No lah, I should thank you for it. :D --Vsion 10:05, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Maps?
Hi Vsion, would you mind creating a map for all the LRT stations and for places in Singapore. If you haven't notice the COTW page, you may like to take a look here. A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Sorry if I was too hostile the other time when you asked me a question about Andrew Kuan. :( --Terence Ong Talk 15:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Supreme court
I'm afraid you've misinterpret the Basic Law. It's not presribed in the Basic Law that Hong Kong should be presented as "Hong Kong, China" whenever within international contexts. It's, neither, mentioned anywhere in the Basic Law that the legal jurisdiction have to be known as "Hong Kong, China" and never "Hong Kong". — Instantnood 19:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Why don't I make it easier for you: It also never mentioned specifically that we have to use "Hong Kong, China" in wikipedia? --Vsion 19:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

 * In that way you're not argueing within the context of the Basic Law. Why is there anything wrong to use simply "Hong Kong" as the section title? Its status is more than sufficiently mentioned in in the first line of the section. — Instantnood 18:26, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Why should instantnood launch this discussion in your talk page just because you made an edit considered offensive in instantnood's books? I would suggest that he be directed to the talk page of Supreme court itself for wider contributions, and to ignore him if he persists in cornering you.--Huaiwei 20:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

 * If Vsion's response weren't that personal, there's no reason not to continue the discussion here at talk:supreme court. — Instantnood 18:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

 * As no reason has been given against the use of "Hong Kong, China", there is nothing for me to response to. :D. (My earlier comment wasn't personal, it was sarcastic, sorry.) --Vsion 18:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Nevermind. :-) As per the convention I observe from real-life situations, I'd prefer some certain consistence towards how these you know what that are not sovereign state should be presented. "Hong Kong, China" and "Macao, China" are nothing except official designations for purposes of international presence. They're not the conventional short names the two regions are known as. I've no objection with using them on the list of WTO members or list of IOC members, but it's preferable to use "Macao (People's Republic of China)" on general lists, on par with "Puerto Rico (United States)", "Greenland (Denmark)", "Gibraltar (UK)", and many others. P.S. If you don't object, the discussion here shall better be continued at talk:supreme court. — Instantnood 19:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Esperanza!
Welcome,, to Esperanza, the Wikipedia member association! As you might know, all the Esperanzians share one important goal: the success of this encyclopedia. Within that, we then attempt to strengthen the community bonds, and be the "approachable" side of the project. All of our ideals are held in the Charter, the governing document of the association.

Now that you are a member you should read the guide to what to do now or you may be interested in some of our programs. A quite important program is the StressUnit, which seeks to support editors who have encountered any stress from their Wikipedia events, and are seeking to leave the project. So far, Esperanza can be credited with the support and retention of several users. Redwolf24 runs the spam to keep members up to date. Also, we have a calendar of special events, member birthdays, and other holidays that you can add to and follow.

In addition to these projects, several more missions of Esperanza are in development, and are currently being created at Esperanza/Possibles.

I encourage you to take an active voice in the running of Esperanza. We have a small government system, headed by our Administrator general, Celestianpower, and guided by the Advisory Committee comprised of FireFox, Flcelloguy, Titoxd, and Karmafist. The next set of elections will be in February, and I would be glad to see you vote, or even consider running for a position.

If you have any other questions, concerns, comments, or general ideas, Esperanzian or otherwise, know that you can always contact Celestianpower by email or talk page or the Esperanza talk page. Alternatively, you could communicate with fellow users via our IRC channel, #wikipedia-esperanza (which is also good for a fun chat or two :). I thank you for joining Esperanza, and look forward to working with you in making Wikipedia a better place to work! ➨ ❝ R e  DVERS ❞ 23:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

RE: Template
Hi Vsion, I like the templage. :D --Terence Ong 05:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for voting!
Hello there! I wanted to thank you for taking the time to vote on my arbitration commitee nomination. Although it was not successful, I appreciate the time you spent to read my statement and questions and for then voting, either positively or negativly. Again, thank you!  Páll  (Die pienk olifant) 22:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

RE:Wiki-birthday
Lots of thanks, Vsion. I had to resize the photo in order to be visible. =D --Ter e nce Ong (恭喜发财) 16:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Found Autobiographies
I think the correct process is to add them to Autobiography Category by adding the following (to talk page I am presuming) Trödel talk 16:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, you did that in the two articles already, thanks! This will come in handy in the future. --Vsion 23:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Happy Chinese New Year
Hi Vsion, Happy Chinese New Year. 恭喜发财，万事如意. 身体健康，年年有余. Wish you a prosperous and happy new year. --Ter e nce Ong (恭喜发财) 17:56, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Image:Azahari Husin and Noordin Mohammed Top.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded, Image:Azahari Husin and Noordin Mohammed Top.jpg, has been listed at Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. --Wgfinley 07:50, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Image:Azahari Husin.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded, Image:Azahari Husin.jpg, has been listed at Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.

US and some other government's images are PD, Malaysia is not on that list that I'm aware of. --Wgfinley 08:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry, edit conflict. Can we discuss here? You have misunderstoond, it is fairuse. --Vsion 08:08, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Honestly, it is really stupid to discuss this. These images are everywhere in south east Asia. --Vsion 08:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Image:Noordin Mohammed Top.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded, Image:Noordin Mohammed Top.jpg, has been listed at Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.

Again, Malaysia is not a PD for governmental images/documents that I'm aware. --Wgfinley 08:09, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Your Message

 * Oh please stop it. Whose copyright interests are you protecting? --Vsion 08:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Think I enjoy going through all these copyvios? Hell no. They are what they are though, wish we could use them but I believe they're violations. Don't like the fact Malaysian government docs aren't PD? Take it up with the Malaysian government. It is what it is. And the answer would be I'm trying to protect the project from exposure to lawsuits or other actions from copyright violations. --Wgfinley 08:18, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Comm'on, the Indonesian and Malaysian governments will thank you profusely if you help to distribute these images for them. --Vsion 08:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

An Esperanzial note
As I remember, the last spam that was handed out was on the 20th of December last year, so I think it's time for another update. First and foremost, the new Advisory Council and Administrator General have been elected. They consist of myself as Admin General and FireFox, Titoxd, Flcelloguy and Karmafist as the Advisory Council. We as a group met formally for the first time on the 31st of Decembe. The minutes of this meeting can be found at WP:ESP/ACM. The next one is planned for tonight (Sunday 29 January) at 20:30 UTC and the agenda can be found at WP:ESP/ACM2.

In other news, Karmafist has set up a discussion about a new personal attack policy, which it can be found here. Other new pages include an introductory page on what to do when you sign up, So you've joined Esperanza... and a welcome template: EA-welcome (courtesy of Bratsche). Some of our old hands may like to make sure they do everything on the list as well ;) Additionally, the userpage award program proposal has become official is operational: see Esperanza/User Page Award to nominate a userpage or volunteer as a judge. Also see the proposed programs page for many new proposals and old ones that need more discussion ;)

Other than that, I hope you all had a lovely Christmas and wish you an Esperanzially good new WikiYear :D Thank you! --Cel e stianpower háblame 16:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Message delivered by Rune.welsh using AWB. If you wish to recieve no further messages of this ilk, please sign your name here.

Image:ThianHockKeng.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded, Image:ThianHockKeng.jpg, has been listed at Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. dbenbenn | talk 23:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Also Image:ThianHockKengDragon.jpg. dbenbenn | talk 23:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Ill...
Hi,Vsion.Sorry,I'm ill but I'll try to narrate with a sore throat...see you on MSN or IRC soon...

Barnstar
''For your great contributions to Singapore-related topics, and the Current events page, I award you the Original Barnstar. Good job! Oh yes, your base maps. --Ter e nce Ong (恭喜发财) 10:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)''

NKF
I have removed excess information from the NKF article as I thought that the article on NKF Scandal. So please help me, follow up on NKF's article if you can...

Ruennsheng
 * Thanks, appreciate your effort. Yup, I will look at the article later to see what I can do. :D --Vsion (talk) 09:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Re : National Kidney Foundation Singapore scandal
Hi Vsion,

My plan is to make it a Featured Article eventually! =D That is why I want to actually rewrite it when I have the time. I remember for the old article, I threw in 5 sentences separately on Google, and they all match exactly with at least one news source. I hope you do understand my rationale on this. :)

- Mailer Diablo 12:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Another Esperanzial note...
Hi again Esperanzians! Well, since our last frolic in the realms of news, the Advisory Council has met twice more (see WP:ESP/ACM2 and WP:ESP/ACM3). As a result, the charter has been ammended twice (see here for details) and all of the shortcuts have been standardised (see the summary for more details). Also of note is the Valentines ball that will take place in the Esperanza IRC channel on the 14th of February (tomorrow). It will start at 6pm UTC and go on until everyone's had enough! I hope to see you all there! Also, the spamlist has been dissolved - all Esperanzians will now recieve this update "newsletter".

The other major notice I need to tell you about is the upcoming Esperanza Advisory Council Elections. These will take place from 12:00 UTC on February 20th to 11:59 UTC on February 27th. The official handing-over will take place the following day. Candidates are able to volunteer any time before the 20th, so long as they are already listed on the members list. Anyone currently listed on the memberlist can vote. In a change since last time, if you have already been a member of the leadership, you may run again. Due to the neutrality precident, I will not vote for anyone.

Yours, as ever, Esperanzially,

--Cel es tianpower háblame 09:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

(message delivered by FireFox using AWB on Celestianpower's behalf)

Departure
I have left the Wiki...unable to narrate anymore...I'm sorry... 09:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Chat
Hello Vsion, are you busy at the moment? Could you drop by at MSN for a chat. :D --Ter e nce Ong 08:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello again, don't mind having a chat again? If you are free. --Ter e nce Ong 09:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hope I'm not trolling, are you busy currently. If not is alright. --Ter e nce Ong 10:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Hoax work
Thanks for your kind words and thots. I'm surprised how fast this is now moving; too fast for my taste, as i say on the two AfDs! But back to work. --Jerzy•t 06:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

We have been notified by a member of the Wikipedia Community, through our Department of Media Relations that an article concerning our group Chairman & CEO has been put up, and would like to confirm that the information presented on both http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Oliveiro and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O&S_Group are factually inaccurate and misleading. Photos used were taken off our Corporate website, which is presently undergoing maintenance works, and permission to use these copyrighted photos have neither been granted nor endorsed by us.

We have written to Wikipedia to remove these sites and photos immediately.

We would like to thank the party who has contacted us.

Department of Media Relations The Office of Eli Oliveiro Media@o-eo.com Tel: +65 6383 4204 ext 5

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.21.154.114 (talk • contribs)

 * Process for article deletion takes 5 days, I've helped by nominating one of the articles to begin the deletion process. The other article was already nominated by someone else. There is nothing much I can do now. --Vsion 06:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Reply
Thanks for your notification. I find it somewhat ambigous, for it seems that Yeap is the wife of both men (??). All I can tell you is that I obtained these facts from the book "Who's Who in Singapore", published by "Who's Who publications". Copies of these books are found in the reference section of the library (I read the book ibn the Woodlands Regional Library). I will find time ti check it out at the library to ractify these errors, but until then, there is little that I could do. Mr Tan 15:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Singapore public gay parties
Regarding your participation in the aforementioned AfD (which resulted in no consensus) I would appreciate your opinions in the following AfD discussions. Thank you for your time. -- Krash (Talk) 15:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Singapore public gay parties (second nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/Singapore gay literature
 * Articles for deletion/Singapore gay art
 * Articles for deletion/Singapore gay theatre
 * Articles for deletion/Singapore gay films

2006 GE Map
There are something wrong with your map, look at these map in http://www.elections.gov.sg/maps_electoral.htm, and compare to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Singapore_electoral_boundaries_2006.png.Littlearea 14:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you kindly be more specific, please tell me where to look, which SMC or GRC, etc. Give some examples where it is wrong. Are you refering to the electoral boundaries or the shape of Singapore? Many thanks. --Vsion 14:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I spot one: the Marine Parade GRC is wrong. Any more error? --Vsion 14:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Aljunied GRC, East Coast GRC and Nee Soon SMC.Littlearea 14:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Arghh..... the Channel NewsAsia website screwed up! http://www.channelnewsasia.com/boundaries/ . I thought they are official propaganda media, how can they got it wrong!. Many Thanks for pointing it out, very grateful. A new map will be produced soon (about an hour), please help to check again. --Vsion 14:43, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Done! I hope the Elections Department got it right. Please help to double check, thanks again. --Vsion 15:22, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it rights. Littlearea 12:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, CNA has also changed their map, but not before I sent them an email. lol --Vsion 20:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

FYI WP:Censorship
You might be interested in this: "42 Please Follow Along"

Haizum 18:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi,saw you online. Are you free to chat on IRC or MSN? Log on to wikipedia-singapore. I also need to set your mode.-- Tdxi a  ng  陈 鼎 翔  (Talk)  Chat with Tdxiang on IRC! 11:16, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi, thanks for your contribution to the discussion. You may also want to see Wikipedia_talk:Censorship.  This is a poll about a policy/guideline which, if passed, would make it against policy for editors to ever use inline images.  Currently, most people are opposed to this new policy/guideline. Johntex\talk 00:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, sorry I didn't see your vote before. Thanks again for weighing in.  There is currently a similar question about the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy and whether those images should be inlined to allow Muslims to read the article without being offended.  However, there is virulent opposition there to consider inlining at this time.  Some people are objecting to considering this topic at this time, since apparently the option was rejected already just after the creation of the article.
 * We need to strike some middle-groung balance between never revisiting a decision once made, and revisiting it every day.
 * There is also a similar question at Autofellatio, though it is not really being actively discussed at the moment.
 * Those 4 pages, (the cartoon article, the Lolicon article, the Autofellatio article, and the policy/guideline debate) are the only four places I know of at the moment.
 * Of course, everyone will have a slightly different opinion of where to draw the line. Some may want to inline pictures at sexual intercourse or penis, but I think those articles are currently striking a good balance at the moment without the need for inlining.  That is just my opinion.
 * I think Lolicon, with its legal implications, and the cartoon article, with its freedeom of religon ramifications, are the best two articles for inlining. As I said, opinion is overwhelmingly against inlining at the cartoon article, so I wouldn't suggest you waste your time right there.
 * The main thing for me is to see that no one takes away this potentially useful tool by fiat of central policy. If no page ever develops consensus to use inlining, that is one thing, but to try to centrally prohibit it from ever being used, as WP:Censorship aims to do, is very bad policy.
 * If you could pop by Lolicon and the proposed guideline page from time-to-time, that would be great. Johntex\talk 00:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Archive Talk
Hi Vsion, I suggest you archive your talk page, as its getting very long. Umm...are you free to chat with me on MSN? P.S. I'm very bored now. --Ter e nce Ong 09:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Censorship
I am trying to make some improvements in the project Censorship. I thought you might want to know about it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Resid Gulerdem 16:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your useful comments, they were beneficial. I am trying to write a new policy Wikiethics. I am very busy but believe strongly on having some standards in Wiki. I would appreciate if you can review it and incoorporate new ideas you might want to add. Your contribution is greatly appreciated. I cannot finish it without help. Best. Resid Gulerdem 00:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I think the Ethics policy needs your imput. Are you around? Resid Gulerdem 03:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Dear Vsion, I am blocked by an admin without prior notification (see my page). I was not reverting, anything. It might be a good friend of MB. ANyways, MB doesn't want people make suggession. MB would like to kill the project. I was wondering if you could help me to put the poll earlier version so that, we can get what people think as we discussed before? Resid Gulerdem 04:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

 * It looks your help is needed again to make this Ethics policy go further. Resid Gulerdem 04:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging for Image:Cvdnair.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Cvdnair.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
 * Image use policy
 * Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see User talk:Carnildo/images. 11:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi Vsion, saw you editing. Would you mind signing in for a while? --Ter e nce Ong 02:33, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

My RFA withdrawal :(
Hello Vsion, it is my apologies to bring you that I've withdrawn my RFA. Due to the lack of experience, I would go under admin coaching first before trying again later. I would thank you for your vote in this RFA whether you voted support, oppose or neutral for me. I appreciate your comments (if you do have) you made and I hope to see you here in future. --Ter e nce Ong 05:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Image source
Wikibreak, right. I have posted on your talk on Commons, hope you will see it in a foreseeable future. // Habj 23:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

thanks
Thanks for making your photo of the electric eel available! I've used it in my online textbook Electricity and Magnetism, in the table of contents. You are of course properly credited in the photo credits in the back of the book, and the licensing information is given. The book is dual-licensed under GFDL and CC-BY-SA.--Ben Crowell

Image:Yaacob Ibrahim.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded, Image:Yaacob Ibrahim.jpg, has been listed at Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Esprit15d 20:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikiethics
Hi Vsion, the discussion on the Wikiethics page is continuing at the personal confict level. If you believe the important of the proposal I would apprecaite for your contributions and appearance on the discussion page. Please note that this proposal cannot be completed or become successful without your contributions. Thanks in advance. Resid Gulerdem 03:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Your user page
I've made some reverts to your user page, e.g., that I believed to be vandalism. If that is not the case, please feel free to revert me. Cheers. enochlau (talk) 11:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Old Skool Esperanzial note
Since this isn't the result of an AC meeting, I have decided to go Old Skool. This note is to remind you that the elections are taking place now and will end at 23:50 UTC on 2006-04-29. Please vote here. Thanks. --Cel es tianpower háblame 20:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Could you sign in?
Hello, once again if you are free, could you sign in to MSN? Thanks. --Ter e nce Ong 09:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Consider licensing under CC-BY
Would you consider licensing your contributaions to this table - Singapore_general_election%2C_2006 under CC-BY. You would still be atributed. This is just because wikinews doesn't accept GFDL content (want to use in Polls open for the 2006 Parliamentary Elections, Singapore). I've already placed it their as its time critical, and I'm unsure if copyright applies to tabular data, but will remove it if you request. Bawolff 02:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC) please respond at n:user talk:bawolff or on talk:Polls open for the 2006 Parliamentary Elections, Singapore

Image Tagging Image:PAP campaign on bicycles at Siglap.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:PAP campaign on bicycles at Siglap.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use the media on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then it needs to be specified where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the GFDL-self tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, consider reading fair use, and then use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. 24.46.201.42 08:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposal
Hi Vsion, I hope you are doing fine... We are about to finalize the revision of Wikiethics proposal. I was wondering if you have some time to review the last form of it. Any comments are appreciated. Best, Resid Gulerdem 01:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Award from Tdxiang!

Good job! You did great in map-making and expanding the 15 Singapore general election, 2006! Thank you and there is also a barnstar for you, a tribute to your excellent map-making!-- 陈 鼎  翔    贡献  Chat with Tdxiang on IRC! 08:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Wow, thank you very much. It is many people's effort. :D --Vsion 02:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Chat Day
Hello, we have decided to notice all of you at the eleventh hour. Today its Chat Day and its where SGpedians' go to and have a casual off-topic chat. It is held at our very own Singapore IRC Channel from 2000 (SST) to late. Do come to the channel if you have the time and it is greatly appreciated that you turn up at the channel. --Ter e nce Ong 11:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Cheng San GRC
I had edit the Cheng San GRC article, please feel free to look at it. -- Littlearea 10:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

COTF: Co-curricular activity
This message is brought to you by Ter e nce Ong.

:)
Hello once again, would you mind coming to IM for a while to chat. This is provided you're free. Thanks. --Ter e nce Ong 03:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If you are free, do come to MSN and chat. I need to tell you something. --Ter e nce Ong 04:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Deletion_review#User:Raphael1/Wikiethics
Since you previously showed interest in the former proposed policy Wikiethics, I'd like to inform you about this deletion review. Raphael1 15:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Nomination!
 Ding Xiang would like to nominate you to be an administrator. Please visit Requests for adminship to see what this process entails, and then contact Ding Xiang to accept or decline the nomination. A page has been created for your nomination at Requests for adminship/Vsion. If you accept the nomination, you must formally state your acceptance and answer the questions on that page. Once you have answered the questions, you may post your nomination for discussion, or request that your nominator do so.

I hope you wll accept it. Thank you!-- 陈 鼎  翔    贡献   和 CCD  Chat with Tdxiang on IRC! 10:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your nomination and kind statement, but I can't accept the nomination for various reasons; besides, I don't like the three questions. --Vsion 13:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * He who is obsessed with power loses it.

 * Not liking the standard three questions? Heh ;) Who likes it anyway? Still you must say that you decline the nomination at the RFA page. --Terence Ong (talk 13:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Erh... "must"? If I don't do it, will I be stopped at the airport and handcuffed??? --Vsion 21:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you
Hi, thank you for voting in my RFA which failed eventually at a result of (91/51/8). I do not plan to run for adminship until a later date. Once again, I would like to thank you for voting. --Terence Ong (talk 15:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Vsion/Archive02


text:
Seal brown

Seal brown is a rich dark brown color, resembling the color of the dyed fur from the fur seal.

Usage
The specifications for the U.S. Army Air Corps Type A-2 jacket (regulation summer flying jacket), adopted in 1931 and the most familiar among all leather flight jackets, stated that it should be made of horsehide tanned to seal brown. However, initially, oxidation during the dyeing process caused the jackets to end up russet (a lighter, reddish brown) in color. Later in the decade, they were able to prevent oxidation during dyeing, and the jackets produced were a proper dark brown.

Seal brown is one of the official colors of Lehigh University, Brown University, the Cleveland Browns football team, and the engineering honor society, Tau Beta Pi.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Seal brown


text:
XXXXVIII Panzer Corps

XXXXVIII Panzer Corps (also: XXXXVIII Army Corp or XXXXVIII. Armeekorps), was a corps-level formation of the German Army which saw extensive action on both the Eastern and Western Fronts during World War II.

History
The corps was originally formed on 15 December 1940 in Germany. At the dawn of Operation Barbarossa, on 22 June 1941, it was redesignated as the XXXXVIII Panzer Corps. The Corps was attached to Field Marshal Ewald von Kleist's Panzer Group 1, a part of Army Group South. The corps took part in the Battle of Brody early in the campaign, and later saw action at Berdichev and Kirovograd. As did all German Corps on the Eastern Front, the XXXXVIII Corps implemented the criminal Commissar Order.

From late 1941 to May 1942, the corps took part in defensive operations in the Kursk area. Thereafter the corps joined the Fall Blau offensive towards Stalingrad under Army Group B.

During the Battle of Stalingrad the 29th Motorized Infantry Division (transferred to the IV Army Corps), the 14th Panzer Division and the 24th Panzer Division (both transferred to the LI Army Corps) was trapped inside the Stalingrad pocket.

The remaining major units, 22nd Panzer Division and 1st Armoured Division (Romania), were almost completely destroyed during Operation Uranus.

However, it was quickly reformed and used by Field Marshal Erich von Manstein's Operation Winter Storm efforts to relieve General Friedrich Paulus' trapped Sixth Army still in Stalingrad.

In February 1943, the XXXXVIII Panzer Corps took part in the battles around Kharkov, and in June it was committed to the southern flank of the Battle of Kursk as part of Hoth's Fourth Panzer Army. After the failure of Operation Citadel, the corps took part in the retreat from Ukraine. By February 1945, the corps found itself in Silesia, and it ended the war defending the Elbe River, where it surrendered in May 1945.

Commanders

 * General der Panzertruppe Werner Kempf (22 June 1941 – 19 Feb 1942)
 * General der Panzertruppe Rudolf Veiel (19 Feb 1942 – 1 Nov 1942)
 * Generalleutnant Ferdinand Heim (1 Nov 1942 – 19 Nov 1942)
 * General der Panzertruppe Hans Cramer (19 Nov 1942 – 25 Nov 1942)
 * General der Panzertruppe Heinrich Eberbach (26 Nov 1942 – 30 Nov 1942)
 * General der Panzertruppe Otto von Knobelsdorff (30 Nov 1942 – 6 May 1943)
 * General der Infanterie Dietrich von Choltitz (6 May 1943 – 30 Aug 1943)
 * General der Panzertruppe Otto von Knobelsdorff (30 Aug 1943 – 30 Sep 1943)
 * General der Infanterie Dietrich von Choltitz (30 Sep 1943 – 21 Oct 1943)
 * General der Panzertruppe Heinrich Eberbach (22 Oct 1943 – 14 Nov 1943)
 * General der Panzertruppe Hermann Balck (15 Nov 1943 – 4 Aug 1944)
 * General der Panzertruppe Walther Nehring (4 Aug 1944 – 19 Aug 1944)
 * General der Panzertruppe Fritz-Hubert Gräser (19 Aug 1944 – 20 Sep 1944)
 * General der Panzertruppe Maximilian Reichsfreiherr von Edelsheim (20 Sep 1944 – 31 Mar 1945)
 * Generalleutnant Wolf Hagemann (31 Mar 1945 – 8 May 1945)

General Staff Officers

 * Oberstleutnant Friedrich von Mellenthin, Chief of General Staff (Jan 1943 to Aug 1944)
 * Major Eitel-Friedrich Binder, Operations Officer(1a) (Feb 1943 to Aug 1943)

Subordinate units
XXXXVIII Motorized Corps
 * As of June 1941 (Operation Barbarossa)
 * 11th Panzer Division
 * 16th Panzer Division
 * 16th Infantry Division (mot.)
 * 612th Artillery Command
 * 619th Artillery Command
 * Corps staff and support units

XXXXVIII Panzer Corps
 * As of August 1942 (Fall Blau)
 * 14th Panzer Division
 * 24th Panzer Division
 * 29th Infantry Division (Wehrmacht)
 * 108th Artillery Command
 * Corps staff and support units

XXXXVIII Panzer Corps
 * As of November 1942
 * 22nd Panzer Division
 * 1st Armoured Division (Romania)

XXXXVIII Panzer Corps
 * As of December 1942 (reformed after loss in the Battle of Stalingrad)
 * 11th Panzer Division
 * 336th Infantry Division
 * Staff of the 384th Infantry Division, with "Alarm" troops
 * 7th Luftwaffe Field Division
 * 108th Artillery Command
 * Corps staff and support units
 * As of July 1943 (Operation Citadel)
 * 3rd Panzer Division
 * 11th Panzer Division
 * Panzergrenadier Division Großdeutschland
 * 167th Infantry Division
 * 132nd Artillery Command
 * 144th Artillery Command
 * Corps staff and support units
 * As of December 1943
 * 1st SS Panzer Division LSSAH
 * Battle group of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich
 * 1st Panzer Division
 * 8th Panzer Division
 * 19th Panzer Division
 * 108th Artillery Command
 * Corps staff and support units

title: XXXXVIII Panzer Corps


text:
User:Utilitaritron

Alexander Browne ¶ student of linguistics, University of Minnesota

¶ Saint Paul, Minn., U.S.

title: User:Utilitaritron


text:
Talk:Ringbearer

This has almost exactly the same content as the Pageboy article. I admit a lack of knowledge on proper Wikipedia procedure, but shouldn't the two be merged into a single article? 71.189.12.173 08:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ringbearer


text:
Razor Smith

William Charles "Razor" Smith (4 October 1877 – 15 July 1946) was a Surrey slow bowler. Nicknamed "Razor" because of his extreme thinness, Smith was a frail man and prone to serious injury; he could rarely get through a full season's cricket, but when fit and healthy, could command the sharpest off-break among bowlers of his day. He was also able to bowl a somewhat faster ball with a very high flight that turned a little from leg and, with any help from the pitch, would get up almost straight.

This combination meant that when wickets were treacherous Smith generally proved deadly, but in less favourable conditions he was rarely effective and his slight build meant he was unsuited to large amounts of work as a "stock" bowler even though he had the extreme accuracy required. Consequently, he never came into consideration for Test selection, though he showed great ability on many occasions against the very best batting sides.

Smith was discovered by the great W.G. Grace in the late 1890s and recommended immediately to Surrey, where he had already taken up residence. He took 5 for 50 against a weak Derbyshire side on his County Championship debut in 1900, but played little first-class cricket until 1904. He proved unplayable on wet wickets early in the season, but did nothing when the weather turned dry and was quickly dropped until the last two games. Still, Smith was third in the first-class averages in his first full season. In 1905, he first came to the public eye with a surprising performance against the Australians on a dry pitch at the Oval, in which his fine off-break made him for a time irresistible, and an amazing 7 for 11 against Northamptonshire on a really sticky pitch.

Between 1906 and 1908, Smith was in and out of the Surrey team, but he still headed the averages in 1908 with 58 wickets for just over 14 each. However, it was in 1909 that "Razor" became one of the leading bowlers of the day – despite injuries again keeping him out of many games. He took 95 wickets for under 13 runs each in a wet summer, and his dismissal of Yorkshire for 26 caused a sensation.

It was in 1910 that "Razor" reached the zenith of his fame: his 247 wickets was 72 ahead of his nearest rival and cost only fractionally more than in 1909. With many soft wickets, Smith was frequently unplayable, and the amount of work he got through seemed to shatter thoughts his body was fragile. His success was due in part to a new delivery, a fast kicking leg break in addition to his usual sharp off spinner. Many of his wickets came courtesy of the brave close fielding of Bill Hitch at short leg. Smith took 14 for 29 at the Oval against Northamptonshire, doing the hat-trick in the second innings and being denied one in the first by a dropped catch.

In 1911, despite most pitches being totally unhelpful in an exceptionally dry summer, Smith seized his few chances so well that he was second highest wicket-taker in the country with 160. 1912 was a wet summer that suited Smith's bowling, yet prior to the last three games he had been so out of form – bowling when clearly unfit – that he had the poor record of 69 wickets at 21.43 each. Deadly bowling in the last three games improved his record, yet he was a complete failure (aside from his only first-class century at No. 11) on a Marylebone Cricket Club (MCC) tour of the West Indies. 1913 was basically a repeat of 1912 – "Razor" came into form only at the tail end of the season – and in 1914 Smith could rarely play due to injuries continuing to recur.

After World War I, it was clear "Razor"’s body would not allow him to play more cricket, and he spent the rest of his life working for the bat firm Surridge’s. Smith worked there right up until his death from heart failure in 1946.

title: Razor Smith


text:
Talk:German school of fencing

Untitled
This deals with Lichtenauer's system to the exclusion of others. It's an excellent article on that topic, but it presents material as though it were true of all German masters when in fact it is specific to those operating closely in accordance with Lichtenauer. Maybe we could add material to cover other masters, or at least a note at the top of each subheading describing in general the changes later masters made to Lichtenauer's system?

Zabieru 05:55, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * of course! the article is far from finished, and lots of information should be added. Feel free to improve it! dab (ᛏ) 14:05, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vor and Nach
Vor and Nach are more terms of timing, not nessisarily of attack and defense. I'm mostly from the Tobler side of things. Anyone have something agaisnt the two possible translations in the article?

Vor and nach are positions of time of which to react to your opponent. The vor is when you respond before your opponent has started his attack. The nach is when you are responding after the attack has already been made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarquisCthulhu (talk • contribs) 08:15, 16 June 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree completely. This article isn't more than a very brief writeup, and I still haven't got round to expanding it. So you are very welcome to elaborate the terms. As you say, the vor is a position of advantage, because you do not so much react, but rather force your opponent to react. But note that other systems of combat see it exactly the other way round (e.g. kendo, jogo do pau, I believe), where it is held that the one who attacks first has the disadvantage because he has to expose himself. dab (ᛏ) 11:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Vor and nach are exactly the same as debana and nuki in kendo. In vor, you strike at the moment when the opponent begins his action. In nach, you dodge and strike at the moment when the opponent's strike would hit you. Indes attack means simultaneous attack with opponent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.203.169.107 (talk) 07:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Book Publishers
At the bottom of the article there was a commertial link to one of the main publishers of books related to the subject of this article. I move the link into a list of Book Publishers and added a link to another publisher who also produced books on the subject. I know that commertial links are normally removed. As I have purchased books from both of these publishers and know the owner of one, I don't claim to unbias. Thus, I leave the decision to keep or move these links to someone with a NPOV on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ranp (talk • contribs) 18:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * the chivalry bookshelf link is certainly fine, since that is a notable publisher dedicated to the topic. I am less sure about paladin, since that appears to be a publisher dealing with martial arts in general? Maybe they have some HEMA-specific subpage we could link to? (ᛎ) qɐp 19:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Eisenport
Eisenport: 'iron door', mentioned in 3227a as a non-Liechtenauerian ward, identical to the porta di ferro of the Italian school Why is Eisenport non-Liechtenauerian. Almost all of the itailian posta have German equivalents, why is eisenport different? Also, 3227a is the origonal Liechtenauer merkeverse, isn't Eisenport mentioned in Meyer or at least Mair? This ought to be examined and expanded. Sethwoodworth 20:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Mordhau
I'm not familiar enough to include it myself, but it seems that Mordhau should be included somewhere in this article. --mordicai. 16:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * so it should, in a section on Harnischfechten. dab (𒁳) 18:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Schielhau
The original statements on the Schielhau were confusing and based upon a very weak understanding of the cut. I added a clear statement on the cut with a reference to a recent article by Bartholomew Walczak, who is one of the authors of the The Codex Wallerstein : A Medieval Fighting Book from the Fifteenth Century on the Longsword, Falchion, Dagger, and Wrestling and a Senior ARMA Researcher. Yet for some reason the article was changed back to a statement that is self-acknowledging about being confused. I have again changed to a more clear statement with a reference. If anyone wishes to add to the statement then please do so only if you have a valid reference.Ranp 15:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I changed the description back and then added to it substantially. My objective was to provide a description that better reflects the several different variations of schielhau that appear in several sources (notably the von Danzig).  The description you provided is a clear and accurate description but only of one version of the schiel.  This is based upon the translation by Jeffery Forgeng and Jeff Tsay and which has been recently updated.  Alas, I will not have access to the reference until next Friday.  If you have a better way of describing schiel that incorporates its variety then I would glad for the improvement. Mercutio.Wilder 18:14, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * The interpretation of the Schielhau by Bartholomew Walczak and Jacob Norwood is based on all of the Geman manuals, including Von Danzig, Ringeck, Meyer, Mair, etc. The statement I provided is general enough so that it does cover all variations.  Please keep in mind that all of the variations in the description of the Schielhau are describing a single false edge cut that can be used in many situations and contexts.  It is just a false edge Oberhau, not a feint!Ranp 18:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

vom Tag
Mercutio, I hope that I am not seeing the start of a pattern where anytime I make an edit you quickly changed it. In any case, you have suggested that the image on the page should be taken as literal, thus you edited my statement to say that the blade should be held verticle. The problem with this is that if you taken the image of any one guard as literal then you must also take the images of all the other guards as literal. Therefore, when you suggest that the blade angle in the vom Tag image is literal you are also indirectly suggesting that: So, given the problems with the images that I outlined are you still wanting to treat the image as literal?
 * in the vom Tag guard the false edge guard is held up under the arm pit with the chin pointing at the adversary?
 * in the Ochs guard the hilt is held way over the head with all of the body weight on a bent rear leg and the front leg pointed straight out?
 * in the Pflug guard the left shoulder is dislocated so that the hilt & guards can be held behing the read hilt?

By the way Mercutio, what is your name? Ranp 19:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

 * My conclusion that vom Tag should be held vertically or horizontally is based on many sources, I simply cited the included picture as one clear example. For instance every single picture of vom Tag in the article you cited shows it either vertical or horizontal.  I don't have to take every element of every picture literally to reach this conclusion.  I simply weight heavily those characteristics that appear many times i.e. the vertical or horizontal position.

 * As to the interpretation of images:
 * "*in the vom Tag guard the false edge guard is held up under the arm pit with the chin pointing at the adversary?"
 * The first part I find believable and the second part is a known idiosyncrasy of Medieval art. For instance every person in Fiore faces the center of the book.
 * "*in the Ochs guard the hilt is held way over the head with all of the body weight on a bent rear leg and the front leg pointed straight out?"
 * I see nothing wrong with this. Not everyone illustrates Ochs thus so maybe it is simply one of  many ways to hold ochs.  It is physically possible and a tactically sound option.
 * "*in the Pflug guard the left shoulder is dislocated so that the hilt & guards can be held behing the read hilt?"
 * Here more interpretation of the image is necessary. We must conclude that the position of the sword is correct (as that matches the text) but the arms are badly drawn.  As it is possible to have the sword in the position shown without doing that to ones shoulder I can accept the image as descriptive of where to hold the sword (even if not how to hold my arms).  Multiple images, cross-referenced with text allows this image to be more useful than taking it literally on its own.

 * I don't suggest each image should be studied in isolation or taken literally, instead the body of images tells a more complete story. The complete understanding is determined from analysis of the similarities and differences among many sources. Mercutio.Wilder 23:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Literature
I removed the names of three books that have not yet been published. These books should only be re-added to the list after they have actually been published.Ranp (talk) 16:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Sporting
There is a major problem with the statement "...with later works being more inclined towards sporting". This statement, which is probably referrring to the work of Meyer, is nothing more than an assumption held by a few people but it is being stated as if it was an actual fact. Other scholars, including many ARMA scholars, view the work of Meyer as a serious fighting art rather than as some sport activity. A citation request was added for the statement but that can only be for the assumption, it is impossible to provide a citation of the statement as a fact. Therefore, the statement was removed. If anyone wants to add the statement back then they need to write the statement as an assumption rather than as a fact.Ranp (talk) 16:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * this is a valid discussion. I agree it shouldn't be stated as fact (not because Meyer isn't 'sporting', but because 3227a may be considered just as 'sporting'), but since you are aware of the context of this, it would help if you added actual depth to the question instead of removing all mention of it. --dab (𒁳) 07:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I am curious about the statement that 3227a maybe sporting; can you elaborate?

 * For the article a specific reference to a source included in a statement such as, "Some have suggested that later authors/many techniques/most masters teach a sporting form of swordplay" would be the best approach to addressing this. That being said I don't have such a reference that I can think of.  However, I do think that 'some' of Meyer is clearly sporting(e.g. strikes with the flat and "civil Germans do not thrust to the face"),  even if many principles are the same.  But he is no where near as "sport-ified" as Kendo or modern sport fencing. Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 02:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * the content of 3227a is heterogenous. Besides Liechtenauer's no-nonsense fundamentals, it also contains stücke for the fechten zu schimpf (i.e., sporting). Search for "schimpf" in the text. Of course both 3227a and Meyer are still more in touch with serious combat than any 19th century abstraction. dab (𒁳) 07:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct. "Sport" is a 19th century concept which originated in the british Empire, no German man of the 16th and 17th century would even understand the concept. If we want to get even more specific, it does seem that even authors of the 18th century such as Johann Büsching mention that the Marksbrüder and Federfechter of their time still knew how to fight efficiently with a sword (remember that the very same comment was written in 1735, almost 200 years after the publication of Meyer`s fencing treatise). The same cannot be said for modern sports fencers. Give them a smallsword and look how good they do against a willing opponent who wants to kill them. They will fail badly, because they have never learned the basics of real swordsmanship.--2A02:120B:2C79:D630:2CF8:E1:75BE:BE14 (talk) 20:06, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Cut or Hew and other changes
Hew is not a noun in English while cut and strike are (compare the definition of hew and cut. So I have changed back all "hew"s to "cut".

I also cleaned up the section on the timing terms. Though I welcome more improvement.

Does anyone no the German for the terms 'hard' and 'soft' so they can be included? Strong and weak refer to parts of the blade and are not used the same in fechtkunst. Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 20:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Here is the Webster definition of "Hew", please note the etymology:

 * Main Entry:

hew
 * Pronunciation:

\ˈhyü\
 * Function:

verb
 * Inflected Form(s):

hewed; hewed or hewn Listen to the pronunciation of hewn \ˈhyün\; hew·ing
 * Etymology:

Middle English, from Old English hēawan; akin to Old High German houwan to hew, Lithuanian kauti to forge, Latin cudere to beat
 * Date:

before 12th century

 * A cut is not necessarily a hewing motion, it can also be a slice for example. Hewing is just one way to cut with the edge of a sword. Needless to say, I still very much feel that the action of attacking with a "hau" should be translated as attacking with a "hew".

 * As far as "Indes" being translated as "instantly", I give you this link:

 * http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=87310

 * I still think what I wrote is more correct than what it has been changed to.

 * Hard is translated as "Hart" and soft is translated as "Weich". You are right that they refer to different things than Strong and Weak.  Hard and Soft refer to the opponent's pressure in the bind.--Zornhau (talk) 23:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I never doubted that hew is the most literal translation of "hau" but, as noted in the definition you provided, it is not a noun in English. Therefore it is not the correct translation where hau is used as a noun.  For instance 'zornhau' is a noun in the German, therefore it cannot be translated into "wrath hew" in English.  I provided references, the Higgins Fechtkunst glossary by Jeffery Forgeng, for all of the translations I chose.  Please provide citations if you wish to change any. Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 01:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm fine with "cut" as a translation for "hau". Even though it isn't perfect, it looks to be the most correct English equivalent.--Zornhau (talk) 04:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

 * "US Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary
 * Article 47683
 * Hew
 * III. Hew ·noun Destruction by cutting down."
 * In light of this discovery I have changed all the "cuts" back to "hews". Zornhau (talk) 04:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure this is a good idea. While obviously the equivalent of hau etymologically, your English noun hew is completely obsolete. OED has 1618 for its last attestation. OED's definition is "a swinging stroke with an axe or other sharp-edged instrument". In my opinion, the translation of hau in contemporary English is simply "stroke". I realize that stroke has a wider set of meanings than hau, but it does include the meanings of hau, which should make it a good enough translation of the technical term. --dab (𒁳) 08:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

 * `Hau´(in latin `caesim ferire´) means the same as `hit´ or `strike´ and it denotes a lateral slaying motion, which differst from the `stich´ (poke - in latin `punctim ferire´). Besides: I would not give to much on the philological translation of every german word itself - those techniques were ment to be taught in a practical manner! Those rhymed fencing-manuals gave the scholars only a shortened memorisation-tool for their self-teaching (books were pretty much expensive in the late medieval times).--139.30.128.27 (talk) 16:34, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

 * The manuals address different kinds of cuts by separating them in to hau or schnitt. I think "cut" would be an acceptable translation of hau if this distinction were made more clear in the article.Triskele Jim 17:40, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

One more basic attack should be added
I know it's a basic attack, because I look at those old drawings and I see the guys trying to pull the legs out from under the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ForeverQuixotic (talk • contribs) 20:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hooking* should be added. I just noticed that it is the only attack missing. I hope someone does the work and find out what the term is for it.

Day/Roof
As a relatively new student of the art, I've heard both translations used for the "Tag" in "vom Tag." Clearly, "day" is the obvious literal translation of "Tag"--but it's so obvious a translation that I can't help wondering why "roof" ("Dach") comes up at all. Are we sure there isn't some sort of valid idiomatic translation along these lines? Are there texts clearly demonstrating that the literal meaning is intended? "Roof" seems naively to make more sense--I'd have expected "vom Sonne" or "vom Himmel" or "vom Kopf" or something clearly directional rather than "vom Tag" in the literal meaning. Something explaining the background of this translation issue would make me feel a lot better about the absolute position taken in the article.

Exacerangutan (talk) 18:11, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Imho, it is pointless to try translating this in the first place. It is just a technical term. You may speculate that the term originated as dach "roof", but as part of the intentionally obfuscated vocabulary of the epitome, it lost any literal meaning it may have had. The speculation would be, it meant "roof" when it was first coined in the 14th century, but by the time of our sources, people   understood it as "day".

Much of this article is in very bad shape, it isn't properly referenced, and stuff is accumulated from random websites which give ad hoc and partly flawed translation and do not bother to distinguish speculation from fact. So the important thing is that you don't take anything on this page as prescriptive or authoritative. E.g. I wonder if it makes sense to translate hau as "hew". Of course hew is the etymological equivalent of hauen, but as far as I can tell, hew is not an English noun, and even as a verb it doesn't have the same connotations as its German cousin. "Translation" doesn't mean just substituting some etymological equivalent. --dab (𒁳) 08:29, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Both are different terms vor the same stance. "vom Tag" (literally "from the day", but meaning "from the sky") and "vom Dach" (literally "from the roof") both refer to a stance where the sword is heldabove the head, pointing back and up, as well as direct strikes from this position. Same thing with "Keiler" (Boar) and "Pflug" (Plow) or "Mitte" (Middle) and "Zwerch" (Belly). Almost all techniques, stances and weapons have multiple names. Perhaps those are a remnant of the different schools.2003:E5:53CA:E200:8D1D:3E4B:4410:4C23 (talk) 20:27, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on German school of fencing. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080226131447/http://www.phf.uni-rostock.de/institut/igerman/forschung/litkritik/litkritik/start.htm?%2Finstitut%2Figerman%2Fforschung%2Flitkritik%2Flitkritik%2FKritiker%2FAbKaestner.htm to https://www.phf.uni-rostock.de/institut/igerman/forschung/litkritik/litkritik/start.htm?%2Finstitut%2Figerman%2Fforschung%2Flitkritik%2Flitkritik%2FKritiker%2FAbKaestner.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 21:47, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Link works and seems useful. Dhtwiki (talk) 02:00, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on German school of fencing. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20130412042350/http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Deutliche_Erkl%C3%A5rung_der_Fechtkunst_(Jean_Daniel_L'Ange)/Images to http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Deutliche_Erkl%C3%A5rung_der_Fechtkunst_%28Jean_Daniel_L%27Ange%29/Images
 * Added tag to http://www.lupi-venaritis.de/EuropKamfK/Dokumente/080317%20D%F6rbringer%20%DCbersetzung.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 01:14, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on German school of fencing. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120813031930/http://www.skg-im.net/Wir_lernen_Fechten.pdf to http://www.skg-im.net/Wir_lernen_Fechten.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 16:52, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

German Stage Fencing (Bühnenfechtunst)
Dear All

I am a historian (well, a medievalist to be exact) and did add some of the more obscure information about Liechtenauer`s Kunst des Fechtens: that at least the very basics of this martial art has survived in German stage fencing at least until the second world war (apparently, very few interested people thought it was worth to study the German stage fencing literature of the 18th, 19th and early 20th century). Although I have added as much sources as I could find to the article, I would like to ask you to keep an eye on German stage fencing, because it includes many puzzling facts and may be seen as an unbroken line of German fencers (I have heard of living practitioners and will definitely pursue whether it is still possible to interview living, classical German stage fencers from pre world war II. I have found some old German theatrical fencing books that even include pictures (I would love to add them to the article, however, I am not sure whether these pictures are open source). Please add all information about German stage fencing that you come along to the article. Maybe the Babelsberg Studio and the Bavaria Film GmbH have some interesting informations and/or literature about the subject (I know that at least the DEFA must have had some really old books on the subject).

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:120B:2C79:D630:4C30:3595:124C:ADBD (talk) 12:47, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah... most of the HEMA guys are more interested into super-cool-killing-techniques from "DA Fechtbücher" then to check whether some of this stuff may still be on the road. Wouldnt it be easier to seek training under a German stage fencing master BEFORE you start interpreting medieval fencing literature (without knowing the culture and without speaking the language)?--2A02:120B:2C79:D630:D468:497A:6953:22DA (talk) 17:46, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

You are right.The American fencing master William Gaugler said something similar: "most of these fools (HEMA enthusiasts) do not care at all about either tradition or cultue, they simply search for killing techniques in old books they dont actually understand". It seems to me, that these guys have misunderstood these old fencing traditions as some archaic form of modern sports fencing (which it wasnt). I have met HEMA guys and asked them, why not a single one of them shows any interest into German mensur fencing or classical German stage fencing. They answered that they do not care about "boring theatrical fencing" (apparently not getting the point, that many basics of medieval fencing have survived in these traditional lines).

My own personal issue with these guys is the fact that most of them are absolute amateurs. Seriously, why would anybody want to learn sword fencing from someone who doesn't even speak the langauge of the original fencing masters, let alone has never ever fought or who doesn't know how to move properly? Would you go to get singing lessons from someone who can't sing? Would you want to learn swimming from someone who never set a foot into water? Would you want to get a brain surgery from a hobbyist? No? Guess why.--2A02:120B:2C79:D630:2CF8:E1:75BE:BE14 (talk) 19:58, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Although I agree with your sentiment that lay people very rarely excel at these kinds of subjects (and I really wouldn't want to get any form of surgery by a charlatan;-), but there are a few specialists in HEMA who are professional historians like Anton Kohutovic (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChJ0Y62tWOLPzfe5f0Io5ng) and the guys from fecht-kunst.eu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX-C-zlvypk). However, for every professional group you get awkward freaks like the dudes from "Ars Gladii" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xj7uDGk6Zw), who are obviously incompetent fools.--2A02:120B:2C79:D630:2585:7795:C834:28D6 (talk) 19:25, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I have added more informations regarding the practice of German Stage Fencing during the 19th and 20th centuries.--2A02:120B:2C79:D630:50D7:C5BF:7CF4:7B0 (talk) 15:36, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Rubbish, lousy english or just a german out of his depth?
I find this "sentence" rather odd: ''In 1735, German historian Johann Büsching mentioned the existence of both the Brotherhood of St. Mark and the Federfechter as well as the existence of "Klopffechter" (artistic and stage fencers who used blunt weapons). He further stated that there were alive in 1817 at least a handful of skilled people who knew how to use "battle swords" ("Schlachtschwerter", another name for either longswords or Zweihänder).[25]''

Am I to assume that Johann Büsching published and stated between 1734 and 1817? ...or was this the work of an author of non-english descent?95.112.90.229 (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Definitely needs to be rewritten. The book was published in 1816, according to copy at referenced website, so 1817 seems odd. 1735 may refer to when the schools the author refers to were last known to exist, and certainly not when he was writing (he was born in 1783). Unfortunately, a page number for the reference isn't given; so, it may take some time to check it. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:53, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:German school of fencing


text:
Talk:Madidi titi monkey

Common Name
The species has a bionomial name, what exactly did golden palace pay for, the right to a common name? If so I'd say they got ripped off. --nixie 22:40, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * They paid for the common name. They have done dozens of promotional stunts, including paying a woman money to officially change her name to goldenplace.com. Kingturtle 23:00, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Note that the binomial name is "callicebus aureipalatii"; aureipalatii meaning, you've guessed it, "golden palace" (in not too classical Latin). Though I doubt anyone will actually call this the "GoldenPalace.com monkey" (at worst it'll become the "golden palace monkey") it's bad enough we have to put the article here. JRM 23:40, 2005 Apr 16 (UTC)

Rather than naming the species after himself, a common act among biologists,
 * what? I'm not a biologist, but I know several, and the understanding I have is that it's a major faux pas to name a species after yourself. You're supposed to name species after people and things that you like/inspired you/etc. Am I wrong and is biology in fact full of egotists? Nohat 05:04, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

you are welcome to fix the language as you see fit. i support such a change. Kingturtle 05:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's not unheard of for scientists to name discoveries after themselves, even biologists have been known to do it. However, it is far more frequent that well respected and known biologists have things named after them by other bioogists. It is truely a rare occurance for the naming of a new species to be auctioned off in this manner. - UtherSRG 05:27, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually it's against the rules of ICZN for an author to name a species after him/herself. Sometimes you see it, but it's officially named after a parent or wife spouse.  --Aranae 22:28, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * Or husband! Nohat 23:06, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Parent or spouse, certainly. I was thinking of two specific examples.  Many women in science retain their maiden name for publication, but certainly not all.  Sorry, that was a pretty glaring mistake. --Aranae 23:47, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Is this name already officially published? Ucucha See Mammal Taxonomy 17:58, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
 * What a sad reflection on the scientific world to allow an animal to be named after a company based solely on money. RedWolf 06:33, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Hah. It's a sad reflection on the world of scientific funding is what it is. 24.76.121.176 00:41, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not in a scientific journal, but it's been all over the newswires. We may have to make some edits after it's formally published in a journal, but what we have is good for now. - UtherSRG 21:23, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

 * Thus I have not overseen a new species :-). Ucucha See Mammal Taxonomy 05:27, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Why are there 2 families listed in the taxonomy? Kaldari 15:49, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Wronmg template. I have corrected it, though that subfamily one could easily go away. Circeus 17:33, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Move to Golden Palace Monkey?
Reasons to move: Reasons to leave alone: 14:03:04, 2005-08-01 (UTC)
 * GoldenPalace.com appear to prefer "Golden Palace Monkey" as the common name; see goldenpalacemonkey.com.
 * The Latin name just means "golden palace"
 * "Golden Palace Monkey" is nicer.
 * Google test indicates usage is split 50:50.

 * Unfortunately, Groves did not include Callicebus aureipalatii in the MSW update coming out this December, so we can't use that fallback. Of the Google hits, what is the split on the more scholarly sites? - UtherSRG 14:40, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

No hits on scholar.google.com. Using the Latin name as a proxy for "scholarly" I see that "GoldenPalace.com Monkey" is winning 85:10. Gdr 15:21:39, 2005-08-01 (UTC)

Wallace 2005?
What does Wallace 2005 refer to? I found Wallace et al. (2006), but failed to find that. Shaxshan (talk) 07:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

common usage
According to Naming conventions (fauna), we are to use the most commonly used common name in English. "Golden Palace Monkey" -wikipedia retrieves ~100 links. "GoldenPalace.com Monkey" -wikipedia retrieves ~700. Therefore, the name of this article should be GoldenPalace.com Monkey. Kingturtle (talk) 13:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * See . Their chapter only listed the Madidi titi or Madidi titi monkey as a common name for Callicebus aureipalatii, and never mentioned the Golden Palace. We do not only have to consider whether this article should be named the Golden Palace Monkey or GoldenPalace.com monkey, but also deliberate whether it should be Madidi titi monkey or not. --Shaxshan (talk) 13:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

That is an excellent point. I'm just running out the door, now, but hope to investigate this further later this week. Cheers, Kingturtle (talk) 13:26, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Article name
As it stands now, GoldonPalace.com Monkey is the more common usage, by far:
 * "Golden Palace Monkey" -wikipedia - 462 hits
 * "GoldenPalace.com Monkey" -wikipedia - 6010 hits
 * "Madidi titi monkey" -wikipedia - 104 hits

Kingturtle (talk) 13:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Thank you for the good job (and Mr. UtherSRG for moving the page). I propose one point. The reason that GoldenPalace.com monkey or Golden Palace monkey is more popular than Madidi titi in the Google search is conceivably because the name of GoldenPalace.com / Golden Palace is much more sensational. These Google search results should be among the indices for the popularity of each name, but that might not be everything. If we intend to write this article in a biological way, we can use more appropriate web search engines (like PubMed?) and find any academically reliable sources (websites or books, as I described above), I think. --Shaxshan (talk) 07:40, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The thing is that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia for the common man; it is not a scientific encyclopedia. Academic sources should not be used to determine common usage. Kingturtle (talk) 15:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Of course I agree with you as a whole. I didn't intend the academic source is everything, but intended the Google result isn't everything. Even to support the result (GoldenPalace.com monkey) more powerfully, we can use academic sources, which are reliable in some respect.

 * I thought it can be a problem that any academic source (including conservation) doesn't refer to GoldenPalace.com monkey. As far as I can find, such academic sources claim Madidi titi (this is perhaps academiccally prevalent), the golden palace monkey, and http://GoldenPalace.com monkey, not the GoldenPalace.com monkey. However, the last one should be easily qualified because it is just an abbrevation. --Shaxshan (talk) 08:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

 * There are multiple common names, variants on Golden Palace or .com and the National park, monkey and/or titi. The species name is unambiguous and, as noted at the top of the page, happens to be the one notable for being auctioned. That reliable sources continue to apply common names, as they see fit, demonstrates which name the company 'bought'; that they implicitly own the GoldenPalace.com name, probably coined for media releases, may account for resistance to anyone else applying it. There is no rhyme, rule, or reason they should; neither should we according to policies and conventions. It is likely that reliable sources will adopt something more descriptive like Madidi titi, appropriate sources (like the single ref in this article) invariably use the binomial to title a definition or description. cygnis insignis 15:12, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The other part of the monkey's name
There has been a lot of fuss over the GoldenPalace.com vs. Madidi part of this species's name, but should this be called a "titi," like all the other species in the genus Callicebus? Innotata 19:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Innotata (talk • contribs)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus seems to be in favor of moving. decltype (talk) 12:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

GoldenPalace.com Monkey → Madidi Titi — Clearly the most commonly used name outside publicity for the strange scientific name of this species etc. Regardless of whether "GoldenPalace.com" is used, this should be a "Titi", like all its relatives. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 15:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support per innotata. Also the name used by the IUCN Red List. mgiganteus1 (talk) 16:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Despite the dopey name WP:COMMONNAME policy requires "Articles are normally titled using the most common English-language name of the subject of the article.", and this isn't close... 59,000 uses of GoldenPalace.com Monkey versus a mere 450 for Madidi Titi.  COMMONNAME is policy, not a mere guideline, so the article needs to stay here. 2005 (talk) 00:13, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support - we're a serious encyclopedia. WP:COMMONSENSE trumps COMMONNAME here by a large margin. — Ed   (talk  •  majestic titan)  07:24, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support Although the GoldenPalace.com monkey name may get more Google hits because of its notoriety (a number that drops down considerably when one excludes Wikipedia from the search, by the way), it appears that "Madidi titi" is the name that is used in the primatological community, for example in the Red List and this conference. I prefer such sources over the raw Google hits, as many sites included there have little relevant content or oversight and would not be considered reliable sources. Ucucha 23:15, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

You may have voted, but it is not a voting matter. This move needs to be reverted. Wikipedia goes with common usage, see Common_names. "GoldenPalace.com monkey" -wikipedia retrieves about 37,800 while "Madidi Titi" -wikipedia retrieves about 394. It isn't even close. Kingturtle (talk) 04:56, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Madidi titi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120425230522/http://www.primate-sg.org/PDF/PC20.Callicebus.nov.pdf to http://www.primate-sg.org/PDF/PC20.Callicebus.nov.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 22:03, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 27 June 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus appears clearly opposed to the move as requested. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 (talk) 05:57, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Madidi titi monkey → GoldenPalace.com monkey – That is the most common name used to refer to the monkey. A past discussion in 2010 erred on the common sense side, but it is unquestionable (it wasn't even then) this is the most common name used for the monkey. Given that the website is out of business, it cannot be alleged either it is promotional. Bedivere (talk) 06:32, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

 * Oppose - Ghit results for the proposed destination are less than half of those for the current title. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:36, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

 * Oppose per UtherSRG. WP:GOOGLETESTs can sometimes be misleading, but nominator hasn't demonstrated that "GoldenPalace.com monkey" is more commonly used by any other metric. Plantdrew (talk) 15:37, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree Google can be problematic when assessing the most common name. Just above, in 2010, it is said that there were "59,000 uses of GoldenPalace.com Monkey versus a mere 450 for Madidi Titi". Currently, while it is true that the traditional Google Search gives 7k results to "Madidi titi monkey" versus 6.8k to "Goldenpalace.com monkey", this latter has appeared more in print publications. I am more inclined to assess book and scholar publications rather than simple Google search hits. See Google Books for "Madidi titi monkey" and "GoldenPalace.com monkey". The latter denomination has further appearences as "Golden Palace.com monkey" and "Golden Palace monkey". Summing up, it is more common to use "Golden Palace" than "Madidi titi" to refer to this monkey. Google Scholar shows up 15 results for "Madidi titi monkey" versus 12 for "GoldenPalace.com monkey", two more for "Golden Palace.com monkey" and seven for "Golden Palace monkey". Bedivere (talk) 20:14, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The Google books results include books published before the monkey was described. I'm not sure why those books are coming up, but they don't actually mention the monkey. Google Scholar has 25 results for "Madidi titi". Many of the Scholar results with Golden Palace also mention Madidi titi. Plantdrew (talk) 14:38, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've rechecked and thirteen book sources mention "GoldenPalace.com monkey" instead of 6 for "Madidi titi monkey". I'm a little lazy to go now and check the Scholar links, but 13 (Books) + 21 (Scholar) versus 25 (Scholar) + 6 (Books) is still a win for "GoldenPalace.com monkey". Bedivere (talk) 05:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Primates has been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 14:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose per above. And looking at only "Madidi titi monkey" (and yet all variations of "Golden[]Palace[.com]") fails to take account that "Madidi titi" also refers to this title. (This is not to say we should remove "monkey." It makes the Wikipedia title clearer at the expense of a bit of concision.) SilverLocust (talk) 05:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Madidi titi monkey


text:
Qila Raipur

Qila Raipur (also spelled as Kila Raipur) is a noted village of Ludhiana district in Punjab, India, as it hosts the annual Qila Raipur Sports Festival, known as the Rural Olympics. The events played often demonstrate the physical strength and valor of the Punjabi men and women.

Geography
The village is approximately centered at 30.76194°N, 75.82278°W and located only 19 km away from Ludhiana city.

title: Qila Raipur