text:
The Atomic Bitchwax

The Atomic Bitchwax is an American stoner rock band from New Jersey, formed in 1992 by bassist/singer/songwriter Chris Kosnik, guitarist Ed Mundell, and drummer Keith Ackerman. They did not release their first full-length album until 1999, upon signing with Tee Pee Records. Mixing elements of 1960s psychedelic rock and 1970s riff rock filtered through modern progressive rock, their music has appeared in TV shows such as Jackass, Homewrecker, and various Fox Sports broadcasts.

The first version of the group became a local jam band playing the New Jersey and New York area. This lineup released two full-length records, a self-titled debut in 1999, and Atomic Bitchwax II in 2000. In addition, they released the Spit Blood EP in 2002 via the MeteorCity label. In 2004, Mundell was unable to keep up with the planned tour schedule and replaced by guitarist/vocalist Finn Ryan (formerly of Core). Since then, the band has released nine studio albums and has performed 1,500 live concerts. Their 2006 EP Boxriff was engineered by Jack Endino.

Current Monster Magnet drummer Bob Pantella joined the band in 2007, and the album TAB4 was released the following year. In 2011, they released the album The Local Fuzz, which consisted of one 42-minute track of 50 riffs back-to-back. In the following years, the band toured throughout the world. Kosnik became a member of Monster Magnet in 2013 in addition to his duties with The Atomic Bitchwax. The album Gravitron was released in 2015, followed by Force Field in 2017. Ryan left the band after 15 years in 2018, and was replaced by Monster Magnet guitarist Garrett Sweeny who appears on the band's 2020 release Scorpio.

Band members
Current
 * Chris Kosnik – bass, vocals
 * Bob Pantella – drums, percussion
 * Garrett Sweeny – lead guitar, vocals

Past
 * Ed Mundell – guitar
 * Keith Ackerman – drums, percussion
 * Finn Ryan – guitar, vocals

Albums

 * The Atomic Bitchwax (1999)
 * Atomic Bitchwax II (2000)
 * 3 (2005)
 * TAB 4/T4B (2008)
 * The Local Fuzz (2011)
 * Gravitron (2015)
 * Force Field (2017)
 * Scorpio (2020)

EPs

 * Spit Blood (2002)
 * Boxriff (2006)

Compilation appearances

 * "Hey Alright" on Welcome to Meteor City (1999)
 * "Combination" on Right in the Nuts: A Tribute to Aerosmith (2000)
 * "Kiss the Sun" on Doomed (2000)
 * "Liquor Queen" on The Mighty Desert Rock Avengers (2002)
 * "Hey Alright" on Guerrilla Jukebox Vol 1 (2003)
 * "STD" & "The Destroyer" on ...And Back to Earth Again (2007)

title: The Atomic Bitchwax


text:
John Payne

John Payne may refer to:

Arts and entertainment

 * J. D. Payne (born 1979/1980), American screenwriter
 * John Howard Payne (1791–1852), American actor and playwright
 * John Payne (actor) (1912–1989), American film actor and singer
 * "Sunshine" Sonny Payne (John William Payne, 1925–2018), American radio presenter
 * Johnny Payne, American dramatist, novelist, scholar, and university professor
 * John Payne (voice actor) (born 1960), English-born Canadian voice actor
 * John Payne (engraver) (1607–1647), English engraver
 * John Payne (poet) (1842–1916), English poet and translator
 * John Payne (singer) (born 1958), British singer for rock band Asia

Politics

 * John Barton Payne (1855–1935), American politician, lawyer and judge, U.S. Secretary of the Interior 1920–1921
 * SS John Barton Payne, a Liberty ship
 * John D. Payne (born 1950), Republican member of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives

 * John Otunba Payne (1839–1906), Nigerian administrator and diarist
 * John Payne (New Zealand politician) (1871–1942), New Zealand politician
 * John Payne (Queensland politician) (1860–1928), member of the Queensland Legislative Assembly

Religion

 * John Payne (bishop of Meath) (died 1507), Irish bishop
 * John Payne (martyr) (1532–1582), English Catholic priest and martyr
 * John Payne (bishop of Liberia) (1815–1874), American missionary from the Episcopal Church to Africa

Sports

 * John Payne (cricketer, born 1828) (1828–1887), English cricketer, father of the below
 * John Payne (rugby union, born 1858) (1858–1942), English rugby union footballer and cricketer, son of the above
 * John Payne (footballer, born 1889)
 * John Payne (footballer, born 1906) (1906–1981), British footballer
 * John Payne (American football) (1933–2019), American football coach
 * John Payne (Australian footballer) (born 1950), Australian rules footballer
 * John Payne (umpire) (1844–1928), Australian cricket umpire
 * John Somers Payne (1926–2013), Irish Olympic sailor
 * John Payne (rugby union, born 1980), Australian-born Tongan rugby union player

Other

 * John Willett Payne (1752–1803), British admiral

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: John Payne


text: User talk:147.4.221.30

title: User talk:147.4.221.30


text: User talk:12.18.171.231

title: User talk:12.18.171.231


text:
Cosmo Hamilton

Cosmo Hamilton (29 April 1870 – 14 October 1942), born Henry Charles Hamilton Gibbs, was an English playwright and novelist. He was the brother of writers Arthur Hamilton Gibbs, Francis William Hamilton Gibbs, Helen Katherine Hamilton Gibbs and Sir Philip Gibbs.

Biography
Hamilton was born in Norwood. He took his mother's maiden name when he began to write. Hamilton was married twice: first to Beryl Faber, née Crossley Smith, who died in 1912. (She was the sister of actor C. Aubrey Smith.) Hamilton then married Julia Bolton, the former wife of playwright Guy Bolton.

His London musicals include The Catch of the Season (1904), The Belle of Mayfair (1906), The Beauty of Bath (1906). During the First World War Hamilton was a lieutenant in the Royal Naval Air Service. He later wrote a number of Broadway shows and many screenplays, and his novels were the basis for several films.

In her April 1922 theater column, Dorothy Parker's review of Hamilton's Broadway play Danger remarked on the salacious content of Hamilton's plays: "There can longer be any doubt that it was from Cosmo Hamilton that the cosmic urge derived its name. Not even his own press agent could claim for Mr. Hamilton that it was he who conceived the notion of sex, but certainly he has given most of his life to capitalizing the idea. It has often been observed that if there were no such thing as sex, everything would be a lot better off. But then we must remember before we agree with the statement that were there no such thing, Mr. Hamilton would have nothing to write about."

Hamilton died, aged 72, in Guildford, England.

Works

Hamilton wrote dozens of novels, averaging a novel per year most of his adult life. His novels include:
 * Plain Brown (1909)
 * A Plea for the Younger Generation (1913)
 * The Door that Has No Key (1913)
 * The Miracle of Love (1914)
 * The Sins of the Children (1916)
 * Two Kings and Other Romances (1917)
 * Who Cares? A Story of Adolescence (1919) ISBN 978-1-4069-2525-8
 * The Rustle of Silk (1922)
 * Paradise (read on radio 1925)
 * His Majesty, the King: A Romantic Love Chase of the Seventeenth Century (1926) ISBN 978-0-548-02418-8 (historical novel about Charles II).

Hamilton's Broadway productions include:
 * The Proud Laird (1905)
 * The Catch of the Season (1905)
 * The Belle of Mayfair (1906-1907)
 * The Hoyden (1907-1908)
 * The Master Key (1909)
 * The Blindness of Virtue (1912)
 * Flora Bella (1916)
 * The Star Gazer (1917)
 * Scandal (1919-1920)
 * An Exchange of Wives (1919)
 * The Silver Fox (1921)
 * Danger (1921-1922)
 * The New Poor (1924)
 * Parasites (1924-1925)
 * Pickwick (1927)
 * Caste (1927)

Filmography

 * The Blindness of Virtue, directed by Joseph Byron Totten (1915, based on the novel The Blindness of Virtue)
 * Scandal, directed by Charles Giblyn (1917, based on the novel Scandal)
 * The Sins of the Children, directed by John S. Lopez (1918, based on the novel The Sins of the Children)
 * Day Dreams, directed by Clarence G. Badger (1919, based on a story by Cosmo Hamilton)
 * Who Cares?, directed by Walter Edwards (1919, based on the novel Who Cares?)
 * Restless Souls, directed by William C. Dowlan (1919, based on a story by Cosmo Hamilton)
 * One Week of Life, directed by Hobart Henley (1919, based on a story by Cosmo Hamilton)
 * Men, Women, and Money, directed by George Melford (1919, based on a story by Cosmo Hamilton)
 * The Miracle of Love, directed by Robert Z. Leonard (1919, based on the novel The Miracle of Love)
 * Eve in Exile, directed by Burton George (1919, based on the novel Eve in Exile)
 * Duke's Son, directed by Franklin Dyall (UK, 1920, based on the novel Duke's Son)
 * The Week-End, directed by George L. Cox (1920, based on a story by Cosmo Hamilton)
 * Midsummer Madness, directed by William C. deMille (1921, based on the novel His Friend and His Wife)
 * The Door That Has No Key, directed by Frank Hall Crane (UK, 1921, based on the novel The Door That Has No Key)
 * The Princess of New York, directed by Donald Crisp (UK, 1921, based on the novel The Princess of New York)
 * Wealth, directed by William Desmond Taylor (1921, based on a story by Cosmo Hamilton)
 * Reckless Youth, directed by Ralph Ince (1922, based on a story by Cosmo Hamilton)
 * The Rustle of Silk, directed by Herbert Brenon (1923, based on the novel The Rustle of Silk)
 * Another Scandal, directed by Edward H. Griffith (1924, based on the novel Another Scandal)
 * Who Cares, directed by David Kirkland (1925, based on the novel Who Cares?)
 * Exchange of Wives, directed by Hobart Henley (1925, based on the play Exchange of Wives)
 * Paradise, directed by Irvin Willat (1926, based on the novel Paradise)
 * Restless Youth, directed by Christy Cabanne (1928, based on a story by Cosmo Hamilton)
 * The Three Passions, directed by Rex Ingram (UK, 1928, based on the novel The Three Passions)
 * The Perfect Gentleman, directed by Tim Whelan (1935, based on the story The Prodigal Father)
 * The Exile, directed by Max Ophüls (1947, based on the novel His Majesty, the King)

Other sources

 * Twentieth Century Authors: A Biographical Dictionary of Modern Literature, edited by Stanley J. Kunitz and Howard Haycraft, New York, The H. W. Wilson Company, 1942.

title: Cosmo Hamilton


text:
Frahang-i Oim-evak

Frahang-i Oīm-Ēwak is an old Avestan-Middle Persian dictionary. It is named with the two first words of the dictionary: oīm in Avestan means 'one' and ēwak is its Pahlavi equivalent. It gives the Pahlavi meanings of about 880 Avestan words, either by one word or one phrase or by explaining it.

title: Frahang-i Oim-evak


text: Category:449 births

title: Category:449 births


text: User:Carnildo/sandbox

title: User:Carnildo/sandbox


text:
Karachi Agreement

The Karachi Agreement of 1949 was signed by the military representatives of India and Pakistan, supervised by the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan, establishing a cease-fire line in Kashmir following the Indo-Pakistani War of 1947. It established a cease-fire line which has been monitored by United Nations observers from the United Nations since then.

Background
The Security Council Resolution 39 of April 1948 established a UN Commission (United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan — UNCIP) to mediate between India and Pakistan to bring about a cessation of fighting in Kashmir and to make arrangements for a popular plebiscite. After negotiations with the two sides, the Commission passed a three-part resolution in August 1948 and subsequently added a 'supplement'. The three parts dealt with ceasefire, terms for truce, and procedures for negotiation regarding the plebiscite. Both the countries accepted the resolution and a ceasefire was achieved on 31 December 1948.

Agreement
The Karachi Agreement formally called the Agreement Between Military Representatives of India and Pakistan Regarding the Establishment of a Cease-Fire Line in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, was signed on 27 July 1949, supervised by the Truce Subcommittee of the UNCIP.

The signatories were:
 * 1) Lt. Gen. S. M. Shrinagesh, on behalf of India
 * 2) Maj. Gen. W. J. Cawthorn, on behalf of Pakistan
 * 3) Hernando Samper and M. Delvoie, on behalf of the UNCIP.

The other members of the Indian delegation were Maj. Gen. K. S. Thimayya, Brig. Sam Manekshaw, Maj. S. K. Sinha (who acted as the aide-de-camp for Gen. Srinagesh), and the secretaries of the Defence Ministry and the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs. The Pakistani delegation included Maj. Gen. Nazir Ahmed and Brig. Sher Khan and civil servants M. Ayub and A. A. Khan. The military representatives of the two sides negotiated for a week starting 18 July to demarcate the positions under their control.

S. K. Sinha stated that the Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru briefed the Indian delegation before the Karachi meeting, wherein he informed them that the UN Resolution conceded the legality of Kashmir's accession to India and, so, any "no man's land" would belong to India. The Pakistani delegation would need to produce proof to the UN Commission of factual positions of their control for all the territory they claim. Sinha stated that, based on this principle, the agreement demarcated several hundred square miles of territory on the Indian side even though there were no Indian troops in that territory.

The 830 kilometre long ceasefire line established in the agreement started from a southernmost point just west of the Chenab river in Jammu. It ran in a rough arc northwards and then northeastwards to the map coordinate NJ9842, about 19 km north of the Shyok river.

From the map point NJ9842, it was said to run due north to the international boundary with China, at a distance of about 60–65 km. Since there were no troops in that area of inaccessible glacial terrain, no effort was made to extend the ceasefire line between NJ9842 and the China border. This area, of the Siachen Glacier, eventually became a bone of contention between India and Pakistan.

Another anomaly arose at the southern end of the ceasefire line in Jammu. From the terminus of the ceasefire line to the international boundary between Indian and Pakistani Punjab, there was a gap of over 200 km, which was covered by a recognised "provincial boundary" between Pakistani Punjab and the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir. India generally referred to this boundary as the "international border", whereas Pakistan referred to it as the "border" or the "working border".

Map of the Agreement
U.N. document number S/1430/Add.2 (which is the second addendum to the 1949 Karachi Agreement) shows the Cease Fire Line (CFL) marked on the Map of the State of Jammu and Kashmir. Title of this addendum reads:

"Map of the State of Jammu and Kashmir showing the Cease Fire Line as Agreed Upon in the Karachi Agreement, Ratified by the Governments of India and Pakistan on 29 and 30 July Respectively. (See Annex 26 to the third Interim Report of the United Nation Commission for India and Pakistan)"

U.N. Map illustrating Cease Fire Line as per Karachi Agreement
The Karachi Agreement between India and Pakistan established a cease-fire line to be supervised by the military observers. These observers, under the command of the Military Advisor, formed the nucleus of the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP). On 30 March 1951, following the termination of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP), the Security Council, by Resolution 91 (1951) decided that UNMOGIP should continue to supervise the cease-fire line in Kashmir. UNMOGIP's functions were to observe and report, investigate complaints of cease-fire violations and submit its findings to each party and to the Secretary-General.

title: Karachi Agreement


text: Category:621 births

title: Category:621 births


text:
Matigan-i Hazar Datistan

The Matigan-i Hazar Datistan was the judicial code of the Magistan (Megisthanes), the imperial parliament of the Arsacid Empire (150 BCE–226 CE) and, for a while, of the Sassanid Empire (226–650 CE).

The Matigan-i Hazar Datistan was a compilation of the social, moral, civil and criminal laws of the time. Although the name suggests a thousand chapters or laws (Hazar: thousand), it is not known whether the code really had that many, and may simply mean 'a significant number'.

A considerable portion of the code has been lost.

title: Matigan-i Hazar Datistan


text:
Saint-Leu-la-Forêt

Saint-Leu-la-Forêt is a commune in the Val-d'Oise department, in the northwestern outer suburbs of Paris, France. It is located 19.9 km from the centre of Paris. In 2021, it had a population of 15,979.

History
In 1806, the commune of Saint-Leu-la-Forêt merged with the neighboring commune of Taverny, resulting in the creation of the commune of Saint-Leu-Taverny.

In 1821, the commune of Saint-Leu-Taverny was demerged. Thus, Saint-Leu-la-Forêt and Taverny were both restored as separate communes.

Transport
Saint-Leu-la-Forêt is served by Saint-Leu-la-Forêt station on the Transilien Paris-Nord suburban rail line.

Cultural connections

 * Louis Bonaparte brother to Napoleon I and father to Napoleon III, is buried at Saint-Leu-la-Forêt.
 * Wanda Landowska's villa in Saint-Leu-la-Forêt became a center for the performance and study of early music, particularly of the Baroque era.
 * Eyvind Johnson lived rue de Boissy, from 1926 to 1930.
 * Sylvie Oussenko (born in 1945), singer mezzo-soprano and writer was born in Saint-Leu-la-Forêt.
 * In Patrick Modiano's book, So You Don't Get Lost in the Neighborhood, the narrator spends part of his childhood in the care of a teenage girl living in a mysterious house in Saint-Leu-la-Forêt.

Twin towns – sister cities

 * 🇩🇪 Wendlingen am Neckar, Germany
 * 🇬🇧 Culcheth, United Kingdom

Partner cities

 * 🇷🇸 Novi Sad, Serbia

title: Saint-Leu-la-Forêt


text: User talk:129.115.38.9

title: User talk:129.115.38.9


text:
Talk:Battle of Roncevaux Pass

Untitled
Some criticisms to be confirmed by someone wiser or more erudite:

1. "This battle was the last of Charlemagne's first campaign to capture Spain (...)".

For what I know, it was the only campaign of Charlemagne to Spain. He had been promised the surrender of Barcelona and Saragossa but the leader of this last city was deposed before the Franks could reach it. This frustrated further consolidation of the "Marca Hispanica".

2. "Over the years, this minor battle (...)".

It was no minor battle, though it was indeed an ambush and a guerrilla type battle. The rear-guard was formed by the elite of the Frankish knights and they were all killed causing much "human resources" damage and demoralization to Charlemagne. It was also one of the few defeats of the Emperor, if not the only serious one, hampering also his ambitions south of the Pyrenees, as shown he could only count with the eastern passages as safe ones.

Sugaar.

As far as I know, the battle is not featured in the Orlando Furioso, and that reference should probably be taken down. It does appear in another similar work (Pulci's Morgante), though.

Leo_Boon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.198.232.120 (talk) 16:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Roland was commander?
IIRC, the only historical mention of Roland is the "Vita Caroli Magni" by Einhard, and here the only note is, that during a skirmish in the Pyrenees, "many a paladine of Charlesmagne were killed, among them one Roland of Brittany".

 * Depends what is meant by "historical"...

 * --Kessler 18:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Well... ;-) As opposed to "legend/poetry/hearsay". (Sorry for not signing my earlier entries, btw.) --Syzygy 06:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * That's the question, then: whether the article "Battle of Roncevaux Pass" is to be about the history of the thing -- about which we know very little -- or about the "legend/poetry/hearsay", of which we have a great deal, and which unarguably I think is far more significant for our "history", in fact. No one ever has questioned that the battle was a minor historical footnote, not even Einhard, but its "legend" became one of Western Civ's major historical forces.

 * --Kessler 18:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Einhard's Life was written in retirement, c. 830-833, some time after the events he describes. It is short, 5-6 pages containing 33 sections, really just a memo -- to give you some idea, you can page down through the whole thing online in Latin at http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/ein.html -- memories / justifications of an old man, remembering the good old / bad old days & kindasorta brushing up a few things maybe, like Ptolemy "remembering" his exploits with Alexander.

 * The Vita Caroli did become a best-seller quickly -- there are many medieval references to it -- and it probably is a source for much of the history and literature about Charlemagne which followed thereafter, but it wouldn't have been "history" by today's standards. Not that we're that much better at this today...

 * --Kessler 18:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Is there any evidence Roland really was the commander of the unit?

 * All Einhard says in the original Latin is, "Anshelmus comes palatii et Hruodlandus Brittannici limitis praefectus cum aliis conpluribus interficiuntur", which translates roughly as you have it above: although it does mention two names -- the fact that Einhard mentions only two of the many deaths by name, "Anshelmus" and "Hruodlandus Brittannici" (your Roland of Brittany) may indicate special status for those two, at least.

 * --Kessler 18:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Hum. "In the plane crash, a lot of people died, including them Buddy Holly" doesn't really indicate that he was the pilot of the plane, right? ;-) I mean, Roland certainly was a household name at that time, but taking him down as commander at Ronc' is speculation at best, imho. (I was also a bit dismayed that the Wiki page about the "historical Roland" points out he was Charlesmagne's nephew -- AFAIK, that's from the legend, and not corroborated by historical fact.) --Syzygy 06:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * True. Einhard may have been remembering, in old age, only the names of people he had known personally. Or known of: the incident took place pre-800, I believe (? -- I see Wikipedia says "778" but I think the monument at Roncesvalles reads "789", so I wonder about that dating), and Einhard was writing well over 30 years later.

 * And as to Roland's having been the king's nephew, well, again it's "history" versus "legend" -- it does seem to me that in either case the source ought to be quoted: makes the article a lot more interesting, and useful, to anyone interested in either -- anyone know the source for the "king's nephew" story?

 * --Kessler 18:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Likewise, I thought Roland died at the end of the Chanson, and Charlesmagne could only retrieve his body.

Can anybody clarify?

 * Correct: the full Chanson in Old French, they say, c. 1090 they also say -- that must be (it is, see below) the version which they have at Oxford, Oxford Bodleian MS Digby 23 -- is online nicely at, http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/gallica/Chronologie/11siecle/Roland/rol_ch00.html -- it says basically that Charlemagne got there too late, verse 3800 : "Morz est Rollant, ja mais nel revereiz", "Roland is dead, I'll never see him again".

 * --Kessler 18:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * That's pretty much what I recalled. Charlesmagne pursued the Sarazens and tried to take Saragossa (?), but had to return because he couldn't cross one river or something, right? --Syzygy 06:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * And he "burned Pamplona"... which he didn't...

 * --Kessler 18:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * You now can see and even read (!) Bodleian MS Digby 23 itself online at, http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=bodleian&manuscript=msdigby23b -- but it is attributed there to "12th century, ? 2nd quarter", so I'm not sure where that other site gets its "c. 1090" attribution. I'd trust the Bodleian on the dating, and theirs is the oldest existing copy, I believe.

 * OTOH the Bodley also says that the language is "Anglo-Norman": I'm not sure how that differs from the "Old French" per the label at the other site, which is at Augsburg -- they mention "gallica" in their URL but I don't see a Chanson de Roland at the BnF's Gallica -- so I'll have to leave that to the paleographers and maybe the politicians here to figure out.

 * The line is in (Pt. 2) on f68v, at Oxford: "m orz eft Rolt ia mais nel reuereiz" -- looks pretty "French", to me, altho maybe that's just the "Norman" part in "Anglo-Norman"? -- kind of fun, reading it "in the original"...

 * --Kessler 23:49, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

 * That "Old French" vs. "Anglo-Norman" question: "Since Old French did not consist of a single standard, competing administrative varieties were propagated by the provincial courts and chanceries... the Norman language of Normandy, whose principal cities were Caen and Rouen. The Norman conquest of England brought many Norman speaking aristocrats into the British Isles. Most of the older French words in the English language reflect the influence of this variety of Oïl language which became a conduit for the introduction into the Anglo-Norman realm, as did Anglo-Norman control of Anjou and Gascony and other continental possessions. The Anglo-Norman language reflected a shared culture on both sides of the English Channel. Ultimately, this language declined and fell, becoming Law French, a jargon spoken by lawyers, which was used in English law until the reign of Charles II." -- http://www.answers.com/topic/old-french -- there, more than you ever wanted to know... so the Digby ms. is Old French...

 * --Kessler 00:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Why is there a link to Nafarroa Beherea? Orreaga is in Nafarroa Garaia. Guille 01:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Some things are clear.
Sadly I'll need some days to gather more documentation on this issue and rewrite the article for better. There's much documentation in the battle, mostly from Frankish sources but also some Muslim ones. But, as I say, I need to get first to my father's home to get the right books.

But so far all I can find online is coincident with what I already knew: 1. Date: August 15 778 (at dusk). This is very precise. 2. Charlemagne was in campaign to conquer Zaragoza, whose wali (governor) had betrayed the Muslims (as well as that of Barcelona, not sure if in the same date). The treason was discovered and a new wali appointed. The Franks could only watch the walls of the city and turn back. 3. On his way back, some Muslims (apparently relatives of the traitor governor) atacked the baggage section of the column and rescued the former wali. 4. In Pamplona, Charles decided to pull down the walls of the city. The reason is not clear: either he feared that Muslims could conquer it or he doubted of the loyalty of the Basques. 5. When the column crossed the Pyrenees, presumably at Orreaga (Roncevaux), but this is it's not totally clear, the rearguard, made up of a large number of knights, was ambushed and annihilated. The bulk of the army could only turn back next morning and find the corpses and (I guess) a good number of vultures (aboundant in the Pyrenees).

Other thing that I must check but seem quite clear are: Roland was a relative of Charlemagne, not sure if an in-law or nephew or what exactly and he was likely in command because of his rank. This was a military expediion, not a pleasure voyage.

Legends: we have indeed the Chanson de Roland and we have some Basque myths, maybe influenced by French legends, that assimilate Roland to Sanson and other mythical criatures such as Jentilak, attributing to him some megaliths.

I'll see what can do to improve this article. --Sugaar 19:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Revamped
I've revamped the article partly from memory. I'm going in the next hours to get some books to improve and source it. --Sugaar 10:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Revamped and documented now. I think it's much better now. Nevertheless, check please for errors. --Sugaar 09:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Under LEGEND, there is this: "In the tradition, the Basques are replaced by a force of 400,000 Saracens." Uh, really? never heard that legend, where is the citation? . . .that must be, rather, a fanciful exaggeration for no good reason. Cutugno —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cutugno (talk • contribs) 20:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Confusing
This article is confusing. Were the Basques Muslim? Why did they fight against the Franks? --AW 20:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Basques were not muslims. Basques were basques, a nation apart from muslims and franks. King Karl became to Zaragoza from Paderborn the 777 year and in 778 year he lost and found thes so called spanish marc. Anyway, the army of king karl when was retiring turned home through the two sides they took to go to Zaragoza. The both sides of the Pirinees. By the side of the basques King Karl, by the side of the city of Tudela, appearently, a coupple of relatives and friends of the former leader of the Zaragoza muslims, the one who went to the court of king karl in 777, gived him freedom through a little combat. King karl was furious and went north entering in the land of the basques and entering their capital, their historical main city: Pamplona (Iruña, in basque, literally, "The city"). So King karl, thinking all was the same, muslims, the ones who "stole" him the muslim in tudela, basques... finally destroyed Pamplona. When it was known by the basques the basques leaders recruited an army to revenge that attack to their city. So in the pass of Orreaga in basque, Roncesvalles in spanish, a hugh and large group of basques were waitin the moment to attack the army of king karl when they were retiring home. That is the real reason to attack the franks. Because of historically, between the former godic kingdom in south ank frank kingdom in north, since the fall of the roman empire, there was always a land of basques, although never was structurated by a king with its court. But. When by any circumstance, like the attack of king karl, they had the cappability to join together in a few days and attack. And disolve themselves through the valleys. So, after the defeat, King karl could not take revenge from basques. Because there were no army to defeat. That victory of the basques in that place made King karl a little bit more angry in his carachter the rest of his life. And we know the victory of basques because it was important. But, finally, one little appointment. Basques never wrote this history. Basques usually never write their own history by written letter. The tradition of basques, usually, is oral tradition. That's the reason to see all europe talking about the battle of Roncesvaux pass without the historiography of basques. But, its important to know the truth. Not the CHanson of roland, wich is completely false, like all that good books of cavallery. History and not tricks, please.

Hanskarlperez

 * I clarified the reasoning with sources from other articles --AW (talk) 18:21, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Does not read well
This is written quite poorly, and needs to be considerably revamped. As it stands, it is like stream of consciousness, and more effort should be made to present the information in a clear and methodical manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.85.193 (talk) 20:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC) Is Pierre Narbaitz, a nationalist writer, the best source to get a thorough view abaout the battle? His book is quite ludicrous, as well as that where contends Navarra was a basque state.

Muslim/Christian
I intend to (with refs of course) amend that section slightly because it is not quite right. It's right in the sense that the Basques were not Muslims but while Christianity left had appeared in the Basque Lands about the 4th century but did not become the predominant religion until the 12/13th century. Which means that at the very least, the Basque tribes were a Pagan/Christian mix at the time. Just wondering how exactly to word that. Ideas? Akerbeltz (talk) 23:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi! I am not sure what section you are talking. As far as my concerns go, this is not about religion, and virtually all Muslim/Christian dualism should be removed inasmuch as this event is set against a backdrop of clashes taking place for territorial expansion (Cordova, Umayyads and Frankish Carolingians), where primary loyalties, here and other places, remain tribal, ethnic, national, and not religious, especially, as you pointed, when the brands of Christianity and Islam were pretty sui-generis in each region and with a strong pagan/polytheist component. My vote is to remove all Muslim/Christian stuff, except for excerpts dealing with ulterior narrative of events and/or claims made by Charlemagne or other actors to legitimate their actions as driven by God or religion, basically propaganda. References permitting... Iñaki LL (talk) 17:31, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd be happpy with that approach too. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:51, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Let's see the sourcing first. You might be right about the approach but I don't think religion should be totally discounted as "propaganda". Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 12:30, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Chris. What do the sources say? Mark in wiki (talk) 12:58, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

There's Trask and Kasper, posting what Larry Trask says as it's in English and since he is a more eminent Vasconist that Kasper: ''I is clear that there was a significant Christian presence in the Ebro valley from the fourth century onwards and a bishopric is attested in Pamplona from 589. On the other hand, the Basque heartland in the mountains is devoid of any trace of Christianity before the tenth century: even the bishopric of Bayonne is not attested earlier than that. [...] What evidence we have of Basque religion is evidence for continued paganism and hostility to Christianity. Around 630 or 640 the missionary bishop Amandus (later Saint Amandus) made an attempt to convert the Basques but his mission met nothing but opposition and failure. The famous cemetery of Argiñeta in Elorrio (Bizkaia), generally dated to 883, shows discoidal tombstones [...] with no trace of a cross, [...]. Arab writes not infrequently referred to the Basques as mağūs "wizards, pagans". Consequently, most historians other than Christian apologists have concluded that the Basques of Bizkaia, Gipuzkoa and the French Basque Country did not accept Christianity before the tenth century and in some cases later than that.'' Akerbeltz (talk) 17:00, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I essentially agree with the point above. Besides, no 'Christian solidarity' can be postulated for this period, see, sadly the less the detail the more Moorish or Muslim/Christian dualism is found in historiography, e.g. the native Banu Qasi (Goth descent, Hispanic, Basques?) are Muslims by allegiance to the Umayyads and their monotheistic state religion, not too different from the Christianity of the Hispanic Church of Elipandus, but quite different from that of the Carolingian Christian model based on religious regional idols (saints). Christian / Muslim is really a nominalism that does stick not to reality, but historic narrative. In 778 the Charlemagne's Carolingians were Christianizing the Basques in the Pyrenees, while attempting to seize their lands and distribute them among Carolingian appointed abbots.
 * Are present-day Yazidies Christians? They are labelled as such. Is Evangelical Catholicism Christian? They are referred to as Christian. Do Yazidies and Evangelical Catholics have sth in common? Virtually nothing (except Biblical references), sure the Yazidies are closer to some branches of Islam of their entourage.
 * Then there comes the problem of consistency in the article. Sometimes the same thing may be referred in different names, like in al-Andalus related articles, i.e. Muslims, Moors (no, not the Berbers, or yes?), Sarracens, Ismaelites, Andalusi(ans), Umayyads, etc. although as I pointed out, they sometimes hide a total vagueness. One consistent term is to be chosen within an article, one that remains the most accurate, regardless of all the bibliography (with its variable naming). Iñaki LL (talk) 16:17, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The reference above is, not Collins 1983. Iñaki LL (talk) 16:37, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Eskerrik asko. I've tweaked the lead, also using your source. Let me know what you think and if that works for all, we can see what else needs fixing regarding the religious angle in the article. Akerbeltz (talk) 15:20, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Reading about the legacy/romantization, it's very Frank-centric. I think we should find some references to how Basques viewed the event. Though my memory is drawing a blank apart from a Lertxundi song. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:11, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
 * As far as I see it, the legacy section is at times bordering on trivia. Legacy should be mainly about the story, a watershed in Western culture and narrative behind many events, like the Way of Saint James, the Crusades, etc. Sadly enough, the Basques went through alienation, the memory of their victory was lost along with the official story. Roland became a mythological character of strong force, associated to the construction of cromlech, bridges, etc. As far as I know, during the 19th century new songs and beautiful poems came into being, but much of the knowledge on the real events 'leaked' off the Roncevaux collegiate church and the clergy... Iñaki LL (talk) 15:22, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Text in the lead
I have restored the text after the mention in the lead that the Battle of Roncevaux Pass was later portrayed as a battle between Christians and Muslims to what the lead originally said ("when in fact both sides of the battle were Christian"), with the source it originally had, instead of the text someone had changed it to ("even though it is unlikely that religion was a factor or that significant numbers of Basques had converted to Christianity at the time of the battle"), since I see it as an attempt to imply that the Basque were Muslims, and also can't find anything in the sources given that support it. Like most of the northwestern part of the Iberian peninsula the Basque country was never under Muslim rule, and never converted to Islam, but remained Christians during the entire time most of the rest of Spain was under Muslim rule (during the 8th Century there were also probably quite a few Basque who were still pagans). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:01, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Here's the problem: neither the page 25 or that whole damn chapter of the cited source nor the body of the article bear this out. Per WP:LEDE, we establish content in the body and summarize in the lede. I'm really upset at what appears to be fraud. Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 16:18, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

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Deleting statement that Battle was historically presented as a battle between Muslims and Christians
Why? Please explain otherwise we need to return to consensus version.Asilah1981 (talk) 17:19, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * As I've explained in both my edit summaries and above, the source itself doesn't substantiate those claims. Read the book. We're at status quo ante and you've already made two reversions; I have at least one more to go. Rather than edit war please read the material. So we're clear, the material I removed doesn't belong in the lede per WP:LEDE. Furthermore, Roland's story uses the terms pagan and Moor pretty loosely. There's a question of the religiosity of the Basque, if they were even the combatants. I agree there might be a general belief that the battle was Christians versus Muslims but we need actual sources, not just a consensus of opinion. Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 17:30, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The Basques were hardly Christians, just as much as the Saxons were during this time. Regardless, the problem lies here in the alteration of source. The claim in the source has been altered by the above editor Asilah1981, that means either the statement was previously incorrect/incomplete in relation to what the source claims, or an altered statement has been added now. By the way, no Spain existed whatsoever at that point. Iñaki LL (talk) 23:02, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * There is no evidence of the Basques' religion in 778 one way or the other. The sources on the battle do not identify them as pagans. Srnec (talk) 01:51, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Iñaki LL When I refer to Spain, I don't mean that point in time, I mean during history in the centuries afterwards. Elsewhere in Europe, the Chanson de Roland has always been considered to relate a battle between Christians and Moors, not so in Spain.Asilah1981 (talk) 13:20, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Btw I don't full understand what this argument is about... The bit that was deleted is the same that is repeated elsewhere and sourced throughout the document. Iñaki LL as a Spaniard, you must know that never in the Basque country was this episode considered a confrontation between Christians and Moors. Asilah1981 (talk) 13:33, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Go away with your POV and your disruptive editing. Alteration of sources is alteration of sources, and it is a clear breach of WP policies, period. Iñaki LL (talk) 14:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Battle of Roncevaux Pass


text: Category:658 deaths

title: Category:658 deaths


text:
User talk:Oo64eva/Template:copyvio

Example of usage
Notice: This template uses an autoheading. Always use the substitute (subst) feature to avoid an edit link back to this template.

 pagetitle = Great Expectations (Movie)

title: User talk:Oo64eva/Template:copyvio


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4217 Engelhardt

4217 Engelhardt, provisional designation, is a stony Phocean asteroid and a potentially binary system from the inner regions of the asteroid belt, approximately 9 kilometers in diameter. It was discovered on 24 January 1988, by American astronomer Carolyn Shoemaker at Palomar Observatory in California, and later named after German mineralogist Wolf von Engelhardt.

Classification and orbit
Engelhardt is a stony S-type asteroid and a member of the Phocaea family (701). It orbits the Sun in the inner main-belt at a distance of 1.8–2.8 AU once every 3 years and 6 months (1,286 days). Its orbit has an eccentricity of 0.21 and an inclination of 23° with respect to the ecliptic.

It was first identified as at Turku Observatory in 1944, extending the body's observation arc by 44 years prior to its official discovery observation at Palomar. It will pass about 0.0017 AU from Earth threatening asteroid in 2736.

Lightcurves
In November 2004, a rotational lightcurve of Engelhardt was obtained from photometric observations by American astronomer Brian Warner at this Palmer Divide Observatory in Colorado. Lightcurve analysis gave a well-defined rotation period of 3.066 hours with a brightness amplitude of 0.16 magnitude (U=3).

In December 2011, a follow-up observation by Warner gave a period of 3.0661 hours with 0.18 amplitude (U=3). Due to a couple of supposed occultation and eclipsing events, Warner also suspects that Engelhardt might by a binary system with a minor-planet moon orbiting it every 36.03 hours. The result, however, is far from conclusive.

Diameter and albedo
According to the surveys carried out by the Infrared Astronomical Satellite IRAS, the Japanese Akari satellite, and NASA's Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer with its subsequent NEOWISE mission, Engelhardt measures between 7.34 and 9.16 kilometers in diameter and its surface has an albedo between and 0.231 and 0.37. The Collaborative Asteroid Lightcurve Link derives an albedo of 0.2489 and a diameter of 9.24 kilometers with on an absolute magnitude of 12.3.

Naming
Baltic German geologist and mineralogist Wolf von Engelhardt (1910–2008), expert on impact craters and related mineral metamorphism. He was a professor at the University of Tübingen and a longtime director of its Institute of Mineralogy and Petrography. The approved naming citation was published by the Minor Planet Center on 27 June 1991 (M.P.C. 18456).

title: 4217 Engelhardt


text:
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rock carvings at Alta/archive2

Rock carvings at Alta
Self-Nomination, renominated after spending a week on peer review and incorporating suggestions as far as possible (link to first FAC nomination). Complete rewrite after the original article was tagged as a copyvio, comprehensive overview of the archeological site, background history and possible interpretations of the carvings. -- Ferkelparade π 08:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Has the copyvio been removed from the history to avoid legal problems? Are there any English language print sources on the site to add to the reference section? Those points are easy to solve. The rest looks crisp. Support. Mgm|(talk) 08:49, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, the copyvio has been deleted, the current article is a rewrite from scratch. There used to be an English translation of Arvid Sveen's book, but I cannot find anything about it at the moment, so I'm not sure about the English title and the ISBN number...there are probably a couple more books in English about the site, but I'm not really a fan of listing stuff as a reference if I haven't had a look at the book myself. Thanks for your support, Ferkelparade π 09:27, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Hmm it looks good, if a little short. But if it covers all the facets of the topic I guess that is fine. The thing stopping me from giving full support is that two references is pretty minimal for a FA. Aren't any of the original or current academic papers on the site available? - Taxman 14:33, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I have the list of references in Arvid Sveen's book, but all of the works he cites are in Norwegian, have (to my knowledge) never been translated and are not really easily accessible. So far, I've had no luck with tracking down something in English (which seems quite odd, given the site's significance), but I'll try to dig up some more references. Would adding the main reference works from Arvid Sveen be helpful? -- Ferkelparade π 18:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * No, youryour stance before was good. It is dishonest to list a reference you have not properly used to add or fact check material in the article. If there's nothing else in English, I don't have any answers for you, but I can't support something with so few references. We are a reference work after all. - Taxman 21:27, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * I see your point about too few references, but I don't want anybody to say I'm not willing to do some homework :) I just spent the evening doing some more extensive research for sources, I was able to track down most of the standard works in the university library...a couple hundred pages to read, and probably some changes to the article coming up. I hope to have a much better references section after the weekend, or in the middle of next week at the latest -- Ferkelparade π 22:29, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * That's awesome. If everyone did that, it would be hard to believe the postive impact on Wikipedia. I'm looking forward to seeing the even more well researched article. - Taxman 15:18, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm...it seems it will take a bit longer than expected until I'll get all my reference books and be able to do some reworking of the article (probably about a week). Is it okay to let this nomination sit here for a couple more days, or would it be better to withdraw the nomination for now and renominate in a week or two? -- Ferkelparade π 13:12, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Abstain. Looks good, but as a person who once studied communication, I definetly can't stand for Petroglyph to be included only as 'see also'. Explanation of petroglyphs and how those carvings relate to them should make at least a paragraph, if not the entire section. Once it exists, I will support. A few more ilinks wouldn't hurt much, the article feels a little 'ilink light' to me.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:40, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm...of course, a paragraph about petroglyphs could be worked in, but I didn't really think it was necessary - after all, petroglyph and rock carving are basically just two names for the same thing, meaning basically some form of symbol carved into rock, and I thought that much was clear from the context :P About the ilinks: true, the second half of the article is a bit light on links, but that's mainly because pretty much all the terms that could reasonably be linked have already appeared in the beginning of the article and have been linked there. I'm open to suggestions on further links, though -- Ferkelparade π 13:12, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, the entire Wiki section about cave paintings, petroglyph, pictograms, ideograms, writing and basically the history of symblos and communications is in poor shape - something I intend to rectify soon :) I have rewritten petroglyph article now, hope it gives you an idea how to incorporate petroglyph into your article. Note that 'rock carving' is only one meaning of petroglyph: the second is that they are an image depicting an event. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:55, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Royal jelly

Untitled
I am currently running an experiment with different feeding regimes and the impacts on worker bee survival. I have found that bees fed royal jelly experience a higher mortality than when  fed an artificial protein source.In light of this, can anyone guide me to some literature on royal jelly and it's impacts on survival of bees?? thank you ChiraagChiraag boodhoo 16:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

As a beekeeper (Bk) I am interested in the mechanics of harvesting royal jelly (RJ), as it's my opinion that RJ is surrounded by more myth than fact. Whenever I speak to other Bk.'s who promote RJ they suddenly don't want to speak about it or are so vague that one wonders where their information comes from. Can you point to any scientific data regarding both harvesting and human consumption?

The way in which it is fed to the larvae directly from the nurse bee in minute quantities and produced "on the fly", would mean that harvesting would effectively kill that brood or at least weaken the colony by slowing it's development and thus potentially destroying the hive come the winter, making the price far higher than those advertised - maybe they do not sell the real thing, who would know?

It may also be true that the component parts of RJ are beneficial but surely they can be more easily obtained from other sources?

Kind regards Adrian Wells

Whaddaya mean 'pure acetylcholine'?
If there is all this other stuff, B-complex vitamins and whatnot, in royal jelly, how in the heck is the acetylcholine 'pure'? eritain 23:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The word pure in this context makes no sense. You can only say, in royal jelly there is also acetylcholine. --Fackel 01:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Quackwatch
I have added an alternative POV on the dietary claims, with link to some criticism on quackwatch.

Collection
I note that you say that Royal Jelly is secreted from the heads of young workers. I would agree with this and would point out that these young bees, or nurse bees, do not forage at this stage in their lives. So your device at the entrance to the hive (a spittoon? Sorry couldn't help that)will not work! Maybe you are talking about pollen? Could you please clarify?

Kind regards Adrian Wells

Futurama reference
The Futurama reference referred to "Space honey" not "royal jelly" (which was present in the episode but insignificant). I am removing it. Escuerdo 22:16, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Baldercrap! The royal jelly was used to get fry back from the dead by having the royal jelly fall on the couch that had fry's fluids in. (baldercrap is a quote from the show, not meant as an offence)Jackpot Den 22:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, in the episode Leela packs the Royal Jelly as a "snack" for the queen bee they are trying to take back. The jelly is then mentioned again later when Leela accidently knocks some of it on to the couch which brings Fry back.  Additionaly, the wikipedia article on the episode links to this article.  I see no reason not to add this to the Science Fiction part in the references.  Tuffsnake June 14, 2007

The space honey was all over the place, but the ROYAL JELLY equivalent was only in one place, and served the same purpose as actual royal jelly. It was a pretty obvious reference to RJ (only with a different name, can't remember it at the moment) esp. when you consider its queen-related purpose and what the characters say when they find it (again, after walking past tons of the normal honey). This is a valid pop culture, just as much so as how Scientology was the obvious target of mockery in the funny 2nd season episode of Millennium. :) 199.214.27.87 23:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC) (update: the Slurm Factory episode was prolly also a less direct reference, but the "Leela, wake up!" episode is irrefutable. :) )

Consult your Doctor!
"Consult your Doctor before taking this, or any other substance you even remotely suspect may cause death." What a great quote! But seriously, isn't it a bit of a silly line? Loserdog 3000  19:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Reagan and Royal Jelly
I heard once that former President Reagan was on a Royal Jelly diet - he would consume a mass of it weekly - if anyone can verify this statement, it can be part of the 'funny' notes next to science fiction on the main page.

--Gautam3 02:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

What does royal jelly taste like? It doesn't mention that here, and I'm sure that more than a few readers are wondering this.

 * It has a vaguely acidic, strong flavour, behind which it reminds that of beeswax (possibly because it contains stearic acid). Most people consider royal jelly rather disgusting enough that they only accept ingesting it in some way that minimizes perception of the substance's flavour, generally by placing a small amount of RJ below their tongue and letting it be slowly dissolved by saliva. I personally don't think it tastes that bad, instead finding its flavour somewhat interesting to try, but mine's probably a rather rare exception. This is obviously all from personal experience: if you don't belive me, try it for yourself, but beware some people consider RJ's taste to be absolutely shocking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.55.205.213 (talk) 22:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

HI, i am currently running experiments on the effects of different feeding regimes on the health of worker bees.I have found that the bees are shown to experience higher mortality when fed diets containing RJ than when fed diets containing an artificial protein source. I am still looking for possible explanations for this. Can anyone guide me to some relevant literature? Thank you Chiraag boodhooChiraag boodhoo 16:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Royal Jelly Authorship?
This article seems to have been written by an opponent of the commercial royal jelly industry. If so, its lack of neutrality needs to be corrected. Mal7798 (talk) 23:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

 * You guys will stick anything in your mouth.70.190.168.175 (talk) 18:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

 * First, the article was written by several editors, not one person. Second, do you see that list of sources? If the "commercial royal jelly industry" can produce some peer-reviewed scientific studies to back their claims, then by all means, let's include them in that list, and change the article accordingly. WP:NPOV explicitly states that neutrality is NOT a synonym for "equal time". WP is packed to the rafters with articles that are completely neutral and ALSO completely one-sided. If there are no reliable sources to back them up, then the claims for "miracle properties" of royal jelly will simply have to remain out of Wikipedia for the time being (see WP:UNDUE). When claims of the industry are directly contradicted by published scientific data (such as the presence of vitamins which are not present), then that also must be included - that's exactly what NPOV dictates. Dyanega (talk) 05:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

 * No need to be a prick; I'm sure that Mal7798 understands the basic concepts of Wikipedia. Now, as I'm looking through the histories of your edits (see: Major overhauls) to this article, I've noticed that the more you seem to get your hands on this article, the more your bias against Royal Jelly's use in New Age healthcare is shown.  I will be correcting most of that to keep this article as NPOV as possible, but I encourage any users who can cite reliable sources (including industry claims) to include more information in this article.  As a note for everyone, this is an encyclopedia, not a science textbook.  Claims made by any and/or all industries are allowed in any and/or all articles, so long as they are cited.  If scientific data disagrees with the claims, that should definitely be included AS WELL (instead of removing the claims from the article entirely), so long as they also cite sources.65.93.75.80 (talk) 08:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

 * In addition, I'd like to ask why it seems that there is an all-out war on Wikipedia against New Age healthcare recently? I'm not biased towards or against it, as it's my opinion that if you're ill, and medical doctors are already doing everything they can for you, so long as you run it by them first (to see if there would be any negative reactions/effects), I see no reason why people shouldn't try whatever else they can to get better.  But, it really seems as if many here are completely against it (other articles I've read have given me this impression).65.93.75.80 (talk) 08:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

 * There's no all out war against alternative medecine, but the fact that slternative therapies are coming in for a haircut is not that surprising. Part of the reason that they're alternative is that they struggle to provide good quality scientific arguments in favour of their efficacy. If the efficacy of a treatment is highly disputed, it is likely that many of the relatively unsubstantiated claims for them in WP articles will be removed. Thousands of people use homeopathy, but there's still no evidence that it's any better than a placebo. Any claims to the contrary will need some very strong citations. That's not to say that alternative therapies have no merit, or that they should not be in Wikipedia. It does mean that they (like everything else here) can't make claims without good quality substantiation. JulesVerne (talk) 18:06, 9 November 2009 (GMT)

 * WP is indeed an encyclopedia not a scientific journal. It is a presentation of viewpoints (well documented). Citation is key. An industry website for the industry opinion or industry claim. One cannot reasonably use this as evidence to justify a scientific claim. WP is not a place for original research. I.e. one should not be trying to justify oneself aside from citation. One should be describing/explaining the claims made by others (and possibly summarizing their reasoning). A journal would be the appropriate location for original scholarship or an essay published elsewhere. If a journal doesn't exist, start one.
 * Honestly, good scholarship on these topics would be well welcomed and I know many academics who wish more people knew how to think and write critically on topics for publication. We get dull after a while.. Instead of trying to fight anti-scientific reasoning (if in fact it is unscientific), how about we try fighting unrigorous thinking and posts without citations?
 * If the bee industry makes claims that are claimed to be refuted by scientists, then discuss it. Discuss problems in scholarship cited by others. If the scientists doing the research are funded by big pharma, this also should be mentioned as their authority is put into question (along with the validity of their results) by an apparent conflict of interest. This is a far larger problem today than is widely discussed. Financial gain can corrupt research results by pressuring scientists. Many studies demonstrate this. Just look at what happened at Bell Labs over superconducting materials—a good editor knows their sources. Do these editors?
 * I'd like to see better scholarship all around. We can do better. Remember, scientists generally describe, not prescribe. Leave that to politicians. Like a linguistic catalog, lexicographic [dictionary], describe the facts, do not prescribe them. Leave it up to your well informed readers, informed by your vigorous efforts. And above all, if you must do original research to figure these things out, write an article for publication. Who knows, it might get published—and if it does, you could mention it on the Talk page, and if other editors think it worthy for inclusion, you just avoided the no original research clause. By jove! Dragoon91786 (talk) 18:16, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Editor Request: As I'm currently on mobile and the site doesn't seem to want to let me introduce proper paragraph breaks (they either weren't registering or registered huge!), could someone on desktop or who knows the proper mobile formatting code fix the above formatting correction so that it shows up correctly with a single blank space between the individual paragraphs?

Mine either would have no line break or created these huge spacing gaps. The changes are effectively superfucial to improve readability and correct typing errors.

I wanted it to have a single space gap between paragraphs without eliminating the paragraph indentations necessary for proper legibility. Dragoon91786 (talk) 01:22, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

"triggers the development of queen morphology"
According to the German article that cites a newspaper article as a source, royal jelly doesn't trigger anything, it's the absence of regular nutrition, honey and pollen (which deactivate certain queen-genes through DNA_methylation), that makes a queen become a queen. I can't find the published article since it seems to have been only in print, but Australian scientists are supposed to have found that out. Any experts here who can comment? 91.16.57.119 (talk) 02:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I think this might be what you're thinking of: https://www.wired.com/2015/09/royal-jelly-isnt-makes-queen-bee-queen-bee/ and the paper is http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/1/7/e1500795 . If I get a chance I'll try and write this up in the article! Abergabe (talk) 14:29, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Dubious
Is this really a picture of royal jelly, illustrating the article, or of bee pollen (compare pictures here)? --McGeddon (talk) 12:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Relatively high amount of fatty acids
"also including a relatively high amount (5%) of fatty acids." - relative to what? 67.246.176.132 (talk) 20:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * revised

371 Research Articles
A search of "royal jelly" on www.pubmed.gov now yields 371 research articles. Perhaps we should say just that in this article. I was looking to verify hearsay on estrogenic effects and Down's syndrome and found: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18830443. However, in scrolling through all these titles, it's like "take your pick" for whatever malady you have and see if you can find an authoritative article. As a friend and an editor, I would send people on this pubmed search with the warning that finding just one published study does not mean much.

Suggested addition to the article: "A search of the PubMed database yields hundreds of research papers on the analysis and possible uses of Royal Jelly."

Comments? Bridgettttttte babblepoop 22:57, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like a better application of WP:MEDRS would be in order: emphasize any reviews, de-emphasize individual studies. --Ronz (talk) 03:40, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * With Ronz on this. As of 11/2017, 696 citations yield from a PubMed search on royal jelly. Quantity is meaningless. To the point, are there clinical (human) trials, and have the results been summarized and evaluated in reviews, systematic reviews or meta-analyses? Those and only those are valid citations. David notMD (talk) 01:49, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Unverified claim
"Sometimes honey or beeswax are added to the royal jelly, which is thought to aid its preservation."

This kind of sentence is ridiculous. It sounds like the typical myth of a remote mountain community where local wisdom prevails over scientific truth. If this is not verifiable, I would remove it.

ICE77 (talk) 04:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

If you allow a remark: I don't know which is the case but, if there exists some product that has "beeswax or honey added" for supposed preservative effect, then the above statement describes that practice correctly. Though it might be pointed out that the preservative effect is not proven and, therefore the addition in fact does not prolong the shelf life but instead results in pumping up the quantity of a product while lowering it's actual content of royal jelly. Which does not necessarily mean that the jelly buffed or diluted with addition of other (cheaper) ingredients is less effective since the effectiveness of royal jelly seems to be unproven in the first place, but nevertheless it can be regarded as a way of selling a mixture of cheaper substances under the name of a well sought after substance. (Which is a common practice in all kind of business.) (80.98.114.70 (talk) 12:23, 7 February 2016 (UTC)).

Health Benefits
In my opinion, the information on health effects is quite unsatisfactory and sounds biased. The article cites papers that raise doubts around the health benefits of the royal jelly, but does not at all mention scientific evidence supporting the benefits, for example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499288/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5549483/ https://www.usab-tm.ro/utilizatori/ZOOTEHNIE/file/REVISTA%202011/vol%2044/2/BIOCHIM/Pavel.pdf

Am I missing something or such scientific reports are simply ignored?

Koroner (talk) 10:18, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Missing WP:MEDRS maybe? --Ronz (talk) 15:33, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Honey Bees are not clones
Worker bees and queens do not have an "identical clonal nature". Worker bees, like queens, grow from fertilised eggs; each worker is unique, a child of the queen and one of the dozen or more drones that she mated with. This is well described on the Queen bee wikipedia page.

Even drones are not clones. The queen is diploid (two different versions of each gene, one from each parent), the drone is haploid, with only one of each gene. Which copy of each gene a drone receives is essentially random. Drones laid by the same queen will not be identical, neither clones of the Queen nor of each other.

I'll be changing that text as soon as I can think of an appropriate wording. Itsbruce (talk) 07:57, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Vitamin content
How much of different vitamins does royal jelly really have (in general)? Fao.org source used in the current article (archived here) claims that 1 g of fresh royal jelly has 159-265 mg of pantothenic acid (15900-26500 mg/100 g), for example, and cites a source from 1988. This amount is insane. Other sources like this one claim that it has about 52.8 mg of pantothenic acid per 100 g of jelly, but both sources used this publication use values that ultimately trace back to this publication from 1989. Also, the current version of this article claim that "Royal jelly is 67% water...". What percentages are these? Mass, volume, molarity or something else? 5-HT2AR (talk) 15:28, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Comparative Developmental Biology
— Assignment last updated by Mirandafast (talk) 03:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Royal jelly


text: User talk:81.91.156.3

title: User talk:81.91.156.3


text: Category:676 births

title: Category:676 births


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Talk:List of Slovak poets

Constantine was not a Slovak!!!!!! Slovak people do not exist in the 9th century!!! Constantine was a Greek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sándor Petőfi, as the comment replacing his dates next to his name here identifies him, was indeed a Hungarian poet and, according to many, a great one, too. Whether he was a Magyarized Slovak, as the commentator would have us believe, depends on what is to be meant by the curious term "Magyarize". If it means, as Webster's definition of the term suggests, that he was "put under the domination or influence of Magyars” (“Magyar” meaning, in accordance with Webster's relevant entry, Hungarian), then the description of Petőfi as a great Hungarian poet and a Magyarized Slovak is either contradictory or redundant, depending on the component of Webster’s meaning attributed to the term “Magyarize”. If Petőfi allowed himself, knowingly or unknowingly, to be “dominated” by Hungarians (or by Austrians, Czechs, Slovaks or Laplanders) while writing poem after poem to sing the praises of liberty, personal as well as national, then he was either a foolish or a hypocritical poet, but certainly not a great one. If, however, his Magyarization involved being influenced by Hungarians, then the comment does no more than state the obvious: as a devoted disciple of Hungary’s foremost Romantic poet Mihály Vörösmarty, the best friend of that country’s leading pre-Modern poet János Arany and, most importantly, an admirer of his country Hungary’s native idiom and folk poetry (one only has think of János vitéz, or John the Valiant, his long narrative poem based on Hungarian fairy-tale motifs), he can hardly have been anything but “influenced” by the Hungarians. (That this influence was fully mutual is best shown by the fact that simple folk in Petőfi’s country believe, to this day, his musicalized verses to have been written by nobody in particular, i.e. to be Hungarian folk-songs.)

That Petőfi was originally a Slovak is, again, a matter of semantics. Petőfi’s partial Slovak descent can hardly be questioned. In biological terms—if biology is indeed ethnic destiny—as the son of Maria Hruzova, a Slovak woman, Petőfi was a half-Slovak. As for his “mother tongue”, Petőfi’s first language can hardly have been other than Hungarian. True, is father, one Stipe Petrovic, spoke Serbian and his mother Slovak as their native tongues. But then, as it will happen with a family of multiple ethnic backgrounds living in a “third” country, the language used within the family was also a “third” language, the language spoken by the outside world and the only language the spouses shared. For the Petőfis, or Petrovices, this language was Hungarian, a language whose native idiom little Sándor grew up with. All this does not decide, once and for all, the question whether Petőfi was a Slovak, a Hungarian or a Serb. I would personally like every Slovak and Serbian brother or sister of mine to embrace Petrovic-Petőfi as his or her own as I would like to continue believing him to belong to my own, Hungarian, nation. To call him a Slovak poet, Magyarized or otherwise, is another matter. One who wrote all his poetry, from the first syllable to the last, in his native Hungarian is certainly not Slovak (or Serbian) as a poet, whatever his genetic makeup may have been.

In sum, we should either continue to refer to Petőfi, in Wikipedia and elsewhere, as a great Hungarian poet period, or undertake to change all the encyclopaedia entries of a similar nature to read something like this: Joseph Conrad, the great Anglicized Polish writer; T. S. Eliot, the great Anglicized American poet; Eugene Ionesco the great Gallicized (or Frenchified) Romanian dramatist; Queen Victoria the great Britishized German monarch, etc. It is, of course, another matter that—unlike Victoria, who was queen for the British only—the outsdanding poets and writers of a mixed ethnic background wrote for everybody, regardless of their readers’ cultural identities or national prejudices. Petőfi certainly did so and on account of his supranational appeal he was a Slovak, as well as a Hungarian, a Serbian, a German or an Eskimo. Yes, Sándor Petőfi, or as we like to call him in his native Hungary Petőfi Sándor, was a poet and a great one.

(1) According to Slovak sources, they communicated in Slovak at home (the point is that Serbian and Slovak as Slavic languages are quite well mutually understandable, especially after some exercise), (2) What's the problem in calling someone both Hungarian and Slovak and whatever? Why this needless quasi-philosophy? Juro 22:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(1) Hungarian sources make no mention of the language likely used by the Petrovices, so without the benefit of speaking Slovak my inference is based, admittedly, on guesswork. (2) No problem whatever. Although a Hungarian poet of Serbian-Slovak descent would sound more convincin to me, I am prepared to accept alternative descriptions of Petőfi's ethnic background (as I hoped my previous note would have suggested). What I do have a problem with is the use of the far from value-free term "Magyarized". (Again: see Webster's or any other major dictionary on its connotations.) (3) Whatever merits my comments may have, they were meant to be of a philological, rather than philosophical, nature. The decidedly patronizing tone of the epithet "pseudo" I somewhat resent, though. I promise to refrain from deliberately giving offence with my style, I and I ask no more of those responding to my comments. Thank you.

This will be somehow off-topic, but let me "remind" you: almost everything in the world is - in the end - just a question of definition(s), of course...:)...The purpose of this list and similar lists is not to be a list providing exact ethnical background, but simply to be a list of persons you might be looking for when thinking of "Slovak poets" (in other articles analogously)...Juro 20:14, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You're right: provided you subscribe to a "nominalist" philosphy (there you are then!). Philosophical realists, on the other hand, hold that categories, definitions, etc. reflect things "out there", i. e. they are "real". Even "nominalists" accept, however, that language, and through language human thinking, has an impact on reality--things out there. This being so, it does have some importance how a particular poet is classified in a globally accessible source of knowledge. Sorry about lecturing you on Philosophy 101 (no patronising meant--I'm sure it's all old hat to you), but the implications for our topic make it worth risking to sound a little pedantic. On Petőfi: whatever language was spoken in the family home, he went to Hungarian-language schools, gave repeated written testimony of his loyalty to liberty in general and Hungarian liberty in particular and, most importantly, wrote his published poetry, essays, and his one drama in the language of the country which his parents had chosen to make their home. In short, Petőfi wrote in Hungarian. Until a sizeable corpus of Slovak (or Serbian) language poems of a notable aesthetic quality undoubtedly ascribable to Petőfi is found, I think his classification as a Hungarian poet (which is, I admit, not quite the same thing as an individual with a Hungarian national identity, i. e. a Hungarian--whatever it is) is the only academically acceptable option. And that is nothing to say of the decidedly unpleasant overtones of the epithet "Magyarized". The removal of that offensive term from the breif entry on Petőfi in the Slovak Poets list, if not the erasure of Petőfi's name from that list, I very strongly recommend if Wikipedia is to stay true to its high standards of objectivity and non-judgemental impartiality. F. Á. 23 April 2005

OK, then, frankly, I am the original author of this list, but Petöfi and all the comments were included by other users. I did not delete the entry, because I know he is considered a Slovak poet by many Slovaks (although children learn about him as a Hungarian poet at schools), implying that this would be reverted one day. Magyarized (just as germanized, slovakized etc.) can be negative, but it can be also a fully neutral term, and as a basically neutral term (as I understand it) it perfectly describes what "happened to him". But if you have problems with the term I will change it (but cannot guarantee for subsequent edits by other users)...Juro 20:56, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I very much appreciate your "admission" of having initiated the Slovak Poets page, for which I can only congratulate you. I wish similar pages were opened to promote the contribution of other "small" nations to European and world literature. In fact I don't very much mind Petőfi's inclusion in the SP page on account of his mother and his popularity in Slovakia, even though his language as a poet was Hungarian. Nevertheless, I'm still piqued by the term "Magyarized", which does not foster friendly feelings between nations that once belonged to the Austrian-Hungarian monarchy. I'm sure that its removal, even if temporary, would much improve the quality of the page. One last word of a personal nature. I'm a Hungarian but one who'd like to believe he harbours no bigotry towards his neighbours, but one who--for perhaps understandable reasons--does not like to see views promoted by international forums that can harm the much-abused reputation of his country. That seems to be it for now. Bye F.Á.

Thank you for the change. I'll try to find out about Petőfi's popular reception among Hungary's Slovak community. If I come across anything interesting, I'll let you know so it can be incorparated in the entry on him. Stay in touch. F. Á.

title: Talk:List of Slovak poets


text:
Valérie (film)

Valérie is a 1969 black-and-white Canadian erotic film directed by Denis Héroux. It was the first Quebec film to show nudity. It turned an unprecedented gross of $1.68 million, making it the highest-grossing Canadian film of its time.

Plot
Danielle Ouimet upon leaving a convent with the leader of a motorcycle gang, discovers the hippie culture of Montreal and turns to prostitution. This improbable storyline, made famous by the frank display of nudity and sexuality, came from a culture that was still labouring under a strong sense of Catholic guilt. It was the first of a group of films known as maple-syrup porn.

Production
Valérie was filmed in August and September 1968, with a budget of $99,000.

Release
The film was released in Montreal on 2 May 1969, by Cinépix, the producer and distributor. It was the highest-grossing of all-time in Canada with a gross of $1,684,000 and earned $2 million after being shown in forty countries. It was the most attended Quebec film since Little Aurore's Tragedy. The film was seen by 153,734 people in France.

title: Valérie (film)


text: File:Mongoloid-JockoHomoCover.jpg

title: File:Mongoloid-JockoHomoCover.jpg


text: Category:702 births

title: Category:702 births


text: Category:Patented foods

title: Category:Patented foods


text: Category:799 deaths

title: Category:799 deaths


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Talk:Mercury (computer)

The disambiguation link was originally a pointer to the influential Ferranti Mercury computer, built in the early 60s. Please don't loose this reference.

title: Talk:Mercury (computer)


text:
User talk:Carnildo/sandbox

Thank you. You just made my day. —Korath (Talk) 08:18, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Carnildo/sandbox


text: User talk:129.27.9.245

title: User talk:129.27.9.245


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User:Diderot/Sinogram

Sinograms, or Chinese characters, Japanese characters, Hanzi, Kanji or Hanja are logograms used to write the Chinese language and to varying degrees to write Japanese, Korean and in the past Vietnamese and other east Asian languages. The word sinogram is a calque of 漢字 (Simplified characters: 汉字). Le terme était déjà en usage en France au XIXe siècle : on le trouve employé, par exemple, dans un article d’Alexandre Ular, « Notes sur la littérature en Chine » (La Revue blanche, t. XX, sept.-déc. 1899, p. 20). Il était également utilisé par les auteurs anglo-saxons : ainsi George Ripley et Charles A. Dana dans The New American Cyclopaedia: A Popular Dictionary of General Knowledge, dont l’édition fut entreprise dès 1858. Le premier usage attesté le serait en 1830, en langue latine : « sinogrammatum. » Cette année-là, l’abbé Janelli Cataldo publia un ouvrage dont le titre est : Tabulae Rosettanae Hieroglyphicae et Centuriae Sinogrammatum polygraphicorum interpretatio per Lexeographiam Temuricosemiticam (Neapoli Typis Regiis). This same pair of characters is pronounced and transcribed quite differently in different sinogram-using langauges: In modern standard Mandarin Chinese, it is transliterated in Pinyin as hànzì; in Japanese romanisation, it is kanji; and in transcribed Korean, hanja.

Contrairement à une idée reçue courante en Occident, les sinogrammes ne sont pas tous des idéogrammes, encore moins des hiéroglyphes ou des dessins.

En raison de sa grande taille, cet article a été découpé en plusieurs chapitres. On trouvera une manière pratique de naviguer entre eux au moyen des liens ci-contre. La compréhension de certains de ces chapitres nécessite la lecture d'un ou plusieurs autres.

Nombre de caractères
L'un des plus célèbres dictionnaires chinois – le 康熙字典 Kāngxī zìdiǎn, Dictionnaire de caractères de Kāngxī, paru en 1717 et publié par Kāngxī, second empereur de la dynastie 清 Qīng (1644-1911) – en recense quelque 47 000. Des dictionnaires plus récents, comme le 中華字海 Zhōnghuá zì hǎi vont au-delà, avec plus de 85 000 caractères. En fait, ces dictionnaires comptabilisent des hapax, des erreurs, des variantes ou des raretés.

Dans l'usage courant, en connaître entre 2 000 et 4 000 suffit à lire la presse et la littérature courante. Les lettrés et les calligraphes peuvent en maîtriser plus de 8 000. Le plus grand dictionnaire occidental, le Dictionnaire Ricci de caractères chinois (voir bibliographie) en comptabilise 13 500. Le travail de recherche considérable que représente ce dictionnaire permet de penser que cela représente le nombre de caractères réellement utilisés et attestés depuis l'Antiquité chinoise jusqu'à nos jours : en effet, les « monstres », hapax et variantes trop rares ont été ignorés.

Viviane Alleton, dans son ouvrage signalé en bibliographie, cite les chiffres suivants :
 * 80 000 caractères différents est le nombre total mais fantasmé de caractères en chinois. Jamais aucune époque n'en a connu tant ; les dictionnaires actuels qui recensent ce type de nombre répertorient en fait des caractères que plus personne n'utilise ou d'emploi très rare ;
 * 9000 caractères suffisent à lire à peu près tout texte (il sera cependant toujours possible de trouver, très rarement, un caractère qu'on ne connaît pas) ;
 * 2000 caractères sont censés suffire aux ouvriers ; c'est le taux moyen d'alphabétisation. Le recours à un dictionnaire sera cependant encore nécessaire ;
 * 1500 pour les paysans (ces chiffres sont ceux fixés par les standards d'alphabétisation) ;
 * 1000 caractères permettent de lire 90% des caractères utilisés dans les publications courantes.

Les caractères, en effet (on le verra plus loin) se combinent fréquemment pour former les lemmes (« mots » d'une langue).

Extension géographique et linguistique des sinogrammes
''Chapitre séparé. Résumé :''

À l'instar de l'alphabet latin, qui sert à écrire des langues-sœurs comme le français et l'espagnol mais aussi des langues sans rapports comme le basque et l'allemand, les sinogrammes sont employés – ou l'ont été – dans une grande partie de l'Extrême-Orient. On peut dire sans exagérer que ce sont les Chinois qui ont fourni un modèle de départ pour le développement de l'écriture dans cette partie du globe. L'extension géographique et linguistique des sinogrammes est donc importante. Il ne faudrait cependant pas croire que les caractères sont utilisés de la même manière dans toutes ces langues...

Lire le reste de l'article.

Simplifications et variantes locales
''Chapitre séparé. Résumé :''

Il existe actuellement trois grandes déclinaisons des sinogrammes :
 * les caractères simplifiés (简体字 jiǎn tǐ zì) ;
 * Les caractères traditionnels (繁體字 fán tǐ zì) ;
 * Les caractères utilisés au Japon (漢字 kanji).

D'autre part, on peut signaler le cas de caractères propres au cantonais et de différences minimes entre sinogrammes manuscrits et imprimés...

Lire le reste de l'article.

Comment les sinogrammes représentent-ils la langue ?
''Chapitre séparé. Résumé :''

Les caractères chinois servent à écrire des langues (ici, des langues chinoises) et ne sont pas des symboles idéographiques purs qui noteraient une sorte de langage logique et formel sans aucun lien avec la langue parlée, comme on a pu le croire en Occident aux siècles passés.

Il convient donc de se demander comment les sinogrammes représentent les langues chinoises, c'est-à-dire quel est le lien entre les signes de l'écriture et le duo signifiant ~ signifié de ces langues. On peut déjà balayer une idée reçue tenace : un caractère n'est pas forcément un « mot » et chaque caractère n'a pas forcément un sens. Chaque caractère, cependant, sauf un, se prononce en une seule syllabe... Enfin, on comprendra à la lecture de cet article pourquoi demander son prénom en chinois peut n'avoir aucun sens.

Lire le reste de l'article.

Composition graphique d'un caractère
''Chapitre séparé. Résumé :''

Le tracé d'un caractère obéit à des règles strictes qui déterminent :
 * le tracé lui-même sur la feuille ou à l'écran ;
 * la nature des éléments qui composent chaque caractère, parmi lesquels la clef (ou radical) est le plus important...

Lire la suite de l'article.

Classification des sinogrammes : quels sont les types de caractères ?
''Chapitre séparé. Résumé :''

Il existe plusieurs types de caractères, parmi lesquels quelques rares pictogrammes, un petit nombre d'idéogrammes (simples ou composés) et une écrasante majorité de composés nommés idéo-phonogrammes, principalement. L'écriture chinoise ne comportant en fait qu'un petit nombre d'idéogrammes, il est erroné d'appeler ainsi ses caractères...

Lire la suite de l'article.

Histoire et styles calligraphiques
''Chapitre séparé. Résumé :''

En calligraphie chinoise, ou 書法 shūfǎ, les caractères peuvent être tracés différemment, selon cinq grands styles historiques...

 Lire la suite de l'article.

Divers

 * code ISO 15924 : Hani

Articles connexes

 * simpification des sinogrammes ;
 * styles calligraphiques chinois ;
 * classification des sinogrammes ;
 * langues chinoises, mandarin, japonais ;
 * kanji et hanja ;
 * écriture ;
 * romanisation, bopomofo et pinyin ;
 * codage des caractères chinois.

Liens externes

 * Dictionnaire Français Chinois en ligne recherche par caractère, pinyin ou français ;
 * Dictionnaire étymologique de l'écriture chinoise (en anglais) ;
 * cours de chinois en ligne ;
 * des notions d'écriture ;
 * imagier français chinois, bopomofo, quelques liens ;
 * unification han ;
 * les écritures CJC pour Unicode.

title: User:Diderot/Sinogram


text:
Talk:Chrome plating

Hard chromium layers (over 10 microns)can be used in various applications and consequently subject to different types of quality requirements. Hard chromium layers of hard rods of hydraulic cylinders are tested on corrosion resistance in salt spray cabinets. Because these are destructive tests, only representative sample material can be tested. The salt spray solutions and the conditions in the cabinet are normed as well as the evaluation of the result after the test. The duration of the test is depending the agressivity of the test and the the general expectation the industry has developed for this type of materials.

Tone + possible copyvio
Quality requirements

"Chrome plate shall be uniform in thickness on all surfaces ..."

(1) The prescriptive tone of this seems highly inappropriate for an encyclopedia article.

(2) It's "obviously" (I could be wrong) taken from somewhere, and needs a cite or to be removed as a copyvio.
 * This is standard and can be found appended to every drawing and work order for chrome plate in any of the industries that calls for chrome plate. However as you say the tone is a bit prescriptive, I will reword it later to-day or find some generaly avalable source to reference it. --DV8 2XL 17:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Application of Chrome
This article could be more useful if it had some description for laypersons regarding the way chrome is applied to surfaces & explination of that to which all the technical terms refer.

What about guns? Chroming barrels significantly increases thier life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.36.92.18 (talk) 19:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Chrome and under metals -
Chrome uses various under plating to base metals. Two come to mind.

1. The quoted Nickel - which gives Chrome a blue tint. "Cold Chrome or Cold Steel" 2. A warmer and more typical undercoat is Copper. The pink color warms up Chrome.

If getting something chromed - consider the placement and use - talk to the shop expert.

72.26.8.143 21:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

from plater/chemist
0. we strip the existing plating off the part you bring in. If you don't do parts 1 & 2 right you can peel the cracked chrome off with your fingernails. With Copper and Nickel, the best result is to use a strike bath for adhesion and different bath for strength. 1. standard procedure is alkaline copper (cyanide) on steel/iron because nickel doesn't plate well on iron. 2. Acid nickel over the copper. Needed for underlying hardness and corrosion resistance. 3. Acid chrome. Microscopically peppered with micron sized holes to base metal nickel which together with thin layer of Cr2O3 provides the corrosion resistance of chrome plating. Note that Cr(+6) has poor throwing properties, that is parts or protrusions closer to the anodes get more chrome and holes and details less. 4. Acid chrome plating is dependent on a "slime layer" containing Cr(+2) that is critical, formed in the initial start of current. 5. Cr(+3) plating isn't new or difficult and has much better throwing power and adhesion to base metals. Problem is matte finish. Great for corrosion resistant plate of small parts but more common zinc-nickel etc are shiny.

Shjacks45 06:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Automtive Applications
"In 2007, a Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive (RoHS) was issued banning several toxic substances for use in the automotive industry, including hexavalent chromium, which is used in chrome plating." From the article makes it seem that chrome has been banned from cars, "....Trivalent chromium baths are not yet common, due to restrictions concerning color, brittleness, and plating thickness."

So is Trivalent chromium now used in cars, doesn't seem like it since it's brittle.

I think the article needs some clarification, especially since RoHS is only in Europe i believe, so U.S. still uses hexavalent chromium? 66.235.241.102 (talk) 19:15, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Automotive use
The third and fourth paragraphs don't really seem like they belong here. Perhaps the third, with an appropriate reference might be an interesting anecdote, but even if it's there No doubt when the shops got on-line again these would be replaced. is not something one would expect to read in encyclopedia.

The fourth paragraph is just puffery. It doesn't say who the awards were from, nor does it give any reference to back it up. And even if it did, I don't think some industry awards for "the best chrome plating line" is worth including in an article about chrome plating.

I'm cutting the two paragraphs - if anybody wants to reference the third, make the language more encyclopedic & put it back, I'll be fine with it. The fourth would require a really convincing argument. CruiserBob (talk) 16:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hard Chrome - Citation needed
I saw this:
 * ', also known as ' or , is used to reduce friction....

OK, I found a referenceQQ-C-320B. This is from page 14.
 * Class 2 plating, also known as “industrial chromium” or “hard chromium”, is used for wear resistance, abrasion resistance and such incidental corrosion protection of parts as the specified thickness of the plating may afford. Engineering chromium is usually applied directly to the basis metal and is finished by grinding to the specified dimensions.

It would seem to me that this paragraph would serve as a good reference to the "citation needed" gripe. What do you all think? Alister 77 (talk) 05:14, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Yeah that's a real good ref. Please add it. Wizard191 (talk) 14:17, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The Mil-spec, nice. Your citation, it's ok, but not necessarily true as worded. Sometimes I used to send out progressive dies for hard chrome plating, either due to a mistake on my part EDMing a die opening too big, or rescuing a die from wear without making a new die. You can't really grind out complicated shapes in a monolithic die. (going oldschool. Prior to Wire EDM becoming fairly commonplace, sectioned compound inserts were the rule rather than exception in diemaking, but who actually makes such a jigsaw puzzle nowadays. The expensive endgrain parquet floors in old tool shops were there in-case of accidental dropage of these sectioned parts that sometimes took days to make. The idea behind the flooring is that a straight grained wood that split easily was ideal to help cushion and possible prevent damage to a ground steel part, check a pre WWII copy of Machinery's Handbook for a citation on proper flooring for various shops ) I suppose it's a niche usage of hard chrome. For cylindrical hydraulic parts, it most likely is true, for hard chrome as well as the plasma deposited carbide coatings. --2601:243:1200:9F29:9C32:DC83:9061:3621 (talk) 12:54, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Tdmidget (talk) 02:55, 1 June 2016 (UTC) == Not a very accurate article ==

Written by a Chemistry teacher rather than real world experience? Lead? Barium? "Sulfate"? Plating is from Sulfuric acid solution of Chromium Trioxide. The Sulfuric Acid is REQUIRED to get high current densities. The high current density is required to form and stabilize the divalent Chromium at the surface of the part that actually plates the Chromium on to the metal. Interruption of current will oxidize this layer and prevent chrome from plating on the part. The Lead in your car battery does not dissolve in sulfuric acid. Barium does not dissolve in Sulfuric acid. They will form a precipitate that will damage the part to be plated. Shjacks45 (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely right. Reads like it was written by a retard. Under decorative plating it states that thickness is from.002 mil to .0002 mil. The metalworking industry does not recognize a "mil" other than as .001" in sheet goods such as plastic film and paint film thickness. Metalworking has been working to millionths of an inch for over 60 years and a "mil" is .000001" inch. The article reads the same as " two thousandths of a thousandth. Ridiculous.

History needed
Who, where, and when was chrome plating invented?

What is its history in industrial use?

Phantom in ca (talk) 02:52, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

A good history can found at

http://www.pfonline.com/articles/history-of-chromium-plating

Could this be paraphrased and put in as history?

M Trigg-Hogarth (talk) 22:44, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Current/voltage requirements?
What voltage, current per surface area is required to chrome plate? I assume it varies also by temperature; and I also surmise that  time as well as current is a factor in plating depth.174.18.25.165 (talk) 17:16, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

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less expensive imitator?
From the lead: "Sometimes, a less expensive imitator of chrome may be used for aesthetic purposes." Such as what? 82.24.247.127 (talk) 22:00, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chrome plating


text: Category:828 births

title: Category:828 births