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Talk:Pro-drop language

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I suggest changing the Portuguese examples as follow, to reflect the European version more accurately
Examples of omitted subject:

 * Estás a ver este tronco? Seria bom para a fogueira. Secou completamente. (European Portuguese)
 * Are to see this log? Would be good for the campfire. Dried completely (literal, direct translation)
 * (Do) you see this log? It would be good for the campfire. It has completely dried. (English gloss)

 * Está vendo esse tronco? Seria bom pra fogueira. Secou completamente. (Brazilian Portuguese)
 * Are seeing this log? Would be good for-the campfire. Dried completely (literal, direct translation)
 * (Do) you see this log? It would be good for the campfire. It has completely dried. (English gloss)

Omission of object pronouns is likewise possible when the referent is clear, especially in colloquial or informal language:

 * Acho que ele vai rejeitar a proposta, mas pode aceitá-la. (European Portuguese)
 * Think that he goes (to-)reject the proposal, but may accept it. (literally)
 * I think he is going to turn down the proposal, but he may accept it.

 * Acho que ele vai rejeitar a proposta, mas pode aceitar. (Brazilian Portuguese)
 * Think that he goes (to-)reject the proposal, but may accept. (literally)
 * I think he is going to turn down the proposal, but he may accept it.

 * Ainda há massa? Não, o papá comeu-a. (European Portuguese)
 * Still there is pasta? No, daddy ate it. (literally)
 * Is there pasta left? No, daddy ate it.

 * Ainda tem macarrão? Não, papai comeu. (Brazilian Portuguese)
 * Still have pasta? No, daddy ate. (literally)
 * Is there pasta left? No, daddy ate it.

The use of the object pronoun in these examples (aceitá-la, comeu-o) would be grammatical but rather unnatural in Brazil.

 * Ela procurou-me ontem e não me encontrou. (European Portuguese)
 * She sought me yesterday and not me found. (literally)
 * She looked for me yesterday and didn't find me.

 * Ela me procurou ontem e não achou. (Brazilian Portuguese)
 * She me sought yesterday and not found. (literally)
 * She looked for me yesterday and didn't find me.

Here não me achou would also be possible.

 * A: Amo-te; também me amas? B: Sim, amo-te. (European Portuguese)
 * A: Love-1-SING you; too me love-2-SING? B: Yes, Love-1-SING you. (literally)
 * A: I love you; do you love me too? B: I do.

 * A: Eu te amo; você também me ama? B: Amo, sim. (Brazilian Portuguese)
 * A: I you love; you too me love? B: Love-1-SING, yes. (literally)
 * A: I love you; do you love me too? B: I do.

French examples
"(Je ne) sais pas. – (I) don’t know. (Je) t’appellerai demain. – (I) will call you tomorrow. (Il ne) comprend rien, machin. – That guy don’t understand a thing."

This examples seems false to me (native french speaker). I never heard of such sentences. Contraction of "je" in "j'" occurs in oral colloquial speach, but not a drop.

"J'sais pas. – I don’t know.", "J't’appellerai demain" or "J'appellerai demain" (can be "I'll call you tomorrow" in context) "Comprend rien, ce con" (That idiot don’t understand a thing).

Maybe the original writer have reference for this, otherwise it's seems very wrong, even from the mouth of low class people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.91.192.209 (talk) 20:21, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Totally agree with 91.91.192.209. Those examples sound so wrong. Even a very low class peron would not say that. I suppressed the mention of French language in that paragraph. It should be mentionned that in the 3rd example ((Il ne) comprend rien, machin.), it is not so clear whether the subject is dropped. "Machin" is actually the subject of "comprend", but put at the end. As if "apposed" to a ghost "il" subject for the verb. Nitsugua (talk) 08:26, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's very informal, and can be used only with "I". It's the same in English. It doesn't make them pro-drop languages. And yes, it's very scarce in French to use it.

Chinese Example
Hi. 這件蛋糕很美味. I have never heard of the classifier 件 used for 蛋糕. 塊（块） or possibly the generic 個（个） would sound much better. I'm going to change it. Hope no one objects. (Erebos12345 (talk) 07:56, 12 October 2009 (UTC))

My Chinese friend says that the text about Chinese is not correct. The pronouns should not be dropped in correct Chinese. To say "Not know" as an answer is considered sloppy language.--BIL (talk) 14:14, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Adding Korean
I'd like to add this change:

Among major languages, Japanese and Korean are considered pro-drop languages. Japanese and Korean feature pronoun deletion not only for subjects, but for practically all grammatical contexts.

I'd also like to add Korean examples. Any objections? 211.47.122.89 (talk) 12:12, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm a Korean Heritage speaker and Linguistics student. I noticed Korean pro-dropping, which led me here. I have no citations, but can offer an example:

English

Q: Did you eat?

A: I ate.

Korean

Q: 먹었어?

A: 먹었어

Korean text: 먹었어?

Gloss:       eat[past]?

Romanized:   meog-eoss-eo

Translation: did you eat?

Korean text: 먹었어.

Gloss:      eat[past]

Romanized:  meog-eoss-eo

Translation: I ate.

It is a minimal example showing how much can be stripped from an exchange in Korean while being grammatical and common in everyday speech.

Generalizations across languages
The article says: "Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and Romanian can elide subject pronouns only". I'm a Brazilian Portuguese speaker, and we elide object pronouns as well.

In casual Brazilian Portuguese, the example given for Japanese can be translated as follows:

 * Eng.: "This cake is tasty. Who made it?"
 * Port.: "Este bolo é muito bom. Quem fez?" (This cake is very good. Who made it?)
 * Eng.: "Don't know. You like it?"
 * Port.: "Não sei. Gostou?" (I don't know. Did you like it?)

I can't comment on Spanish (and the other languages) because it usually has subtle differences regarding what is usual and what sounds strange.

How could the article be improved? --Yuu en 21:35, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I'd heard of this. Do you know if this happens in European Portuguese? Spanish certainly doesn't do this kind of thing, for sure, at least not on a regular basis in any major dialect that I'm aware of. Feel free to fix the article with a parenthetical note regarding Br. Port. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 22:05, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

-- Thanks for your reply :). I don't know much about European Portuguese. I rembember reading something saying that object pronouns are not dropped, but it could as well be that they are not dropped as often... So i cannot comment on this. --Yuu en 20:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I think this happens as well in Spanish from Spain (in some cases). For example, when talking about a cake someone's offering to someone else:
 * Eng: "Do you want it?" (yes, I know it sounds weird. It should be "some" instead of "it". But anyway, some word needs to stand after the "want")
 * Spanish: "¿Quieres?" (literally "Do you want?")
 * That's not however the case with Catalan or French, where the thing that the someone might want needs to be mentioned:
 * Cat:"En vols?"
 * Fra:"Tu en veux?
 * My guess would be that Spanish might also elide some object pronouns, whereas that's impossible in Catalan (see:Weak pronouns in Catalan) and French. But then again, I'm no native Spanish speaker, just a Catalan who's been forced to learn it, so I might be wrong. What I do know is that it's easy to detect native Spanish speakers amongst people speaking in Catalan (or trying to) because they make the mistake of not using the object pronouns.--80.32.95.147 00:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

 * In colloquial English, we do this, too: "You want?" is quite common. (There seems to be a limit to the cropping, though; while both "You want?" and "Want some?" sound reasonable to me — provided the context is informal — simply "Want?" does not.)

 * The thing about Spanish — and I must admit here that I'm not a native speaker, or even a particularly good one — is that I'm not sure what pronoun one could include there. AFAIK Spanish has no pronoun corresponding to French en. There are some places where Spanish drops pronouns that could be included for emphasis or other reasons:
 * Lo quiero. (I want it.) ↔ Yo lo quiero.
 * But there are others where I don't think any pronoun could be included:
 * Me gusta. (I like it.) ↔ *Me gusta él. (The latter could only mean I like him.)
 * Me gusta. (I like it.) ↔ Me gusta esto. (I like this.)
 * (This makes some sense to an English speaker, since it can't really be stressed in English, so it feels natural that Spanish wouldn't allow this, either, even though in Spanish this means that there's essentially no subject pronoun form of it.) Your example seems to be of the latter type. I'm not sure if there's really an essential difference from a linguistic standpoint, but I think it bears mention. Ruakh 02:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

False dichotomy?
This page seems to be committing a false dichotomy. What about languages that omit dummy pronouns, but which otherwise don't drop pronouns? For example Esperanto. -- Smjg 16:52, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * As I see it, those are two different subjects. The definition given first says:
 * Pro-drop language (from "pronoun-dropping") is a language where pronouns can be elided (deleted) when considered unnecessary or redundant by the speaker.
 * This definition emphasizes pragmatic usage, that is, the speaker's practice. In Spanish, for example, you can drop your subject pronoun, but you can also keep it. It depends on you (it's not a matter of getting syntax right or wrong, but of sounding redundant or not). Under this definition, Esperanto is not a pro-drop language.

 * The dummy pronoun thing is an addendum: if a language is pro-drop, then it doesn't use dummy pronouns (since those are always redundant, or nonsensical, by definition). A dummy pronoun is not a "real" pronoun in that it doesn't really refer to anything. It's not the same to drop a "he" as in "he made the cake" and to drop an "it" as in "it rained yesterday" ("it" doesn't mean anything at all, it's just a syntactic requirement of English).
 * --Pablo D. Flores 13:54, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Exactly. I began to read the article to the effect that only and all non-pro-drop languages use dummy pronouns.  And I'm pointing out Esperanto as a counterexample (there are probably many others).  Ekz-e, your two examples would translate as "Li faris la kukon" (not "Faris la kukon") and "Pluvis hieraux" (not "Gxi pluvis hieraux") respectively.
 * Well, looking at it again, it says: "Pro-drop languages deal naturally with these, where non-pro-drop languages such as English and French sometimes have to fill in the syntactic gap by inserting a dummy pronoun." For that matter, what does it mean by "sometimes"?  That there are certain conditions in which English or French may omit a dummy pronoun?  Or that it applies to some non-pro-drop languages?  This should be clarified and maybe expanded on. -- Smjg 15:38, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"You want to come with?"
I've never heard this. In which lects does it appear? -- Hoary 02:57, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

 * I attend school in Ohio, and hear it all the time. The non-Ohioans make fun of the Ohioans for saying it, so I guess it's not so common elsewhere. (I never noticed it until people commented on it, so I can't say whether people use it where I'm originally from. I simply say, "You want to come?", but I guess some people like their prepositions.) Feel free to revert my change if you think it was better the other way; I won't be offended. Ruakh 22:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * No, no: it's just that I'd never heard it and found it hard to imagine/believe. But your comment here satisfies me, thanks. -- Hoary 02:08, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)

 * I lived in Ohio for a while and I heard this often. Mga 19:06, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * It's a midwest thing--I've heard this throughout Chicagoland. Meelar (talk) 19:07, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * It also appears in informal speech in California, esp among teenagers. 66.218.46.190 19:11, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

 * It's definitely a recent development in California. I've lived there all my life, and never heard "Can I come with?" until my teenage kids began using it. In fact, I'm more likely to say "Can I go with you?" or "Would you like to go with me?" February 27

 * This has been hypothesized to derive from German ("komme mit"). Does it extend to Yiddish speakers in English also? --Dpr 05:47, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The same construction is common in Swedish (and possibly other Scandinavian languages) as well. I recall it being suggested that it may derive from any of these. EldKatt (Talk) 14:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I've heard of the usage extending as far east as the Pittsburgh area, and the hypothesis that it comes from German has always appealed to me, for one, because a) there were many, many, many German and Swiss settlers in the region from roughly Pittsburgh to Chicago, and b) in German this is a separable verb mitkommen that's usually translated as "to come along". Don't know about the Scandinavian languages. --Darrell Manrique, 12.107.67.3 12:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I grew up in the (definitionally non-midwest) Philadelphia area and learned, mainly from my father, who also grew up in Philadelphia, "Want to come with?" or, in the actual pronunciation, "Wanna come with?" (sorry, I don't know IPA). Dratman (talk) 03:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

 * This sounds less like a language feature than a case of colloquial playing-around, largely because of the fixity of the expression: it doesn't like being used in formal contexts ("Did the plaintiff want to come with?") or in unusual syntactic circumstances ("Do you usually ask Johnny to come with?") or with different verb complements ("arrive with", "ride with", etc.). I hear it occasionally in my family, which includes Ohioans, but it isn't a productive construction even among us. Scutigera (talk) 22:55, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

NW Oregon
The first time I ever heard "come with" or "go with" was in NW Oregon, where I grew up, probably twenty years ago. It sounded odd then, and it sounds odd now (though it's understandable). There are a couple of issues here:

 * 1. It requires us to end a sentence with a preposition, which in itself isn't so bad (it's something up with which I can put :^) ) if the "object" of the preposition is still expressed somewhere. Unfortunately, here the preposition ends the sentence while its object is lost (well, it's supposed to be "understood," depending on the context).

 * 2. In English, some prepositions can also function as adverbs: He went in seems to end in a preposition, but in can be taken as an adverb modifying went, since in tells us, at least in a vague way, where he went. OTOH, with doesn't seem to work as a preposition, since it provides no adverbial information, such as how, where, or when. 4.243.206.196 02:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The construction "come with" sounds perfectly natural to me, having grown up in Oregon myself. I would judge it entirely acceptable, if somewhat informal. Calalang (talk) 03:28, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
 * not sure about oregon; normally it's considered a midwestern thing. never heard it in boston; never heard it in seattle; heard it CONSTANTLY in chicago.
 * so common there, in fact, that will ferrell's portrayal of chicago sportscaster harry carey always ended with "come with, come with".
 * not sure if this was exaggerated or if the real guy used it. oddly enuf, can't find a *single* mention online!  (x/c for the ferrell clips)
 * btw, i too have wondered if with might be considered an adverb here. i see no material diff with the "...in" example above. 66.30.47.138 (talk) 03:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Topic-comment
Are pro-drop traits more common in topic-prominent languages? --Dpr 05:47, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't know if a hypothetical correlation has been extensively researched. But I did find this:

 * One view: empty objects in certain languages (at least) are variables bound by empty topics, e.g. Chinese (Huang 1984, 1989), European Portugese (Raposo 1986) not pro. Subject-object asymmetries in the distribution of and interpretations open to empty subjects and objects may be captured in this way.
 * A second view: empty object positions in other languages (e.g. Quechua, Korean, Thai: Cole 1987) may not seem to show the restrictions found in Chinese/Portugese, and so can/should be analysed as occurrences of pro.

 * Also mentioned here.

 * In short, it looks like this:
 * In general, one takes "pro-drop" to mean "null subject" (or "null object"), that is, a syntactic constituent of the sentence is deleted.
 * However, in some cases one can consider this deleted thing as a topic: first you topicalize something (a subject, object or whatever) and then you delete it. So this could be better termed "topic-drop". This seems to be the case at least in some cases in Mandarin and Japanese.

 * I get the impression, too, that a topic-prominent language sh/would be naturally more adept at pro-drop, since the basic idea of TP is that you get to say things pragmatically, i. e. with less emphasis in syntactic requirements and more on getting to the point. But this is of course a very general idea of mine. In any case, all TP languages that I know are pro-drop (the opposite is not true).

 * --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:00, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

This connection has been most clearly suggested in Yan Huang´s "Anaphora" from 2000 (Oxford). He suggests a distinction between syntactic languages (English, German, French) and pragmatic languages (Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese), and two of the diagnostics are topic-prominence and zero anaphora. The typology is still quite controversial and not that well known in the general linguistic community, but is definitely on to something. Grape, 26 June 2006

Avoidance of repetition
We now read: ''Spanish is pro-drop too, although only in the subject. This is usually to avoid its repetition.'' How is this avoidance of "repetition" different from the usual pro-drop avoidance of what can be pragmatically inferred? -- Hoary 07:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I think there's a difference. In Spanish you usually do NOT need to pragmatically infer what the subject is, because it's already morphologically marked in the verb. I wouldn't use that explanation. Spanish is subject-pro-drop, period - you don't have to give a cause for the feature. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 12:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Of course! How sleepy I must have been when I wrote that. Yes, pragmatics need have nothing to do with it: morphology explains all. But we agree: a desire to avoid repetition has nothing to do with it. Well, I'd normally make a small fix to the article; but because I'm even sleepier now than when I wrote the question above, I'll forgo this. -- Hoary 13:41, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that what Pablo is referring to (correct me if I'm wrong, Pablo) is to situations in which you start talking and the subject of the verb is mentioned to establish who the subject is. This is important if the subject is the third person, when the it cannot be inferred by the verb morphology: "<∅> tomó el autobús" / "<∅> tomaron el autobús." After this first time, the subject can be "dropped" (∅), thus avoiding repetition:
 * "Ella tomó el autobús y ∅ se bajó cerca de la estación. Luego ∅ compró un billete..." Aznalcollar (talk) 15:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Japanese script
I've just removed the Japanese kanji/kana added to the romaji transliteration. This is only an example (not of phonetics, least of all of writing) and Japanese script here is not needed. There was a long discussion about this in the main Japanese language article, no less. The kanji/kana were also incorrect. The topic marker wa is written with the hiragana for ha, and there are common kanji for ki ni itta; however, oishii and dare I've seen more commonly spelt fully in hiragana, おいしい and だれ. Oishii in particular is one of those odd ad hoc combinations that have nothing to do with the historical readings of the kanji in question...

 * このケーキは美味しい. 　誰が作ったの？
 * 知らない. 　気に入った？

--Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, good move. Incidentally, something about t(s)ukutta jarred slightly with my (prematurely fossilized) L2 Japanese, so I asked a native. She told me that it's OK, but rather hints at an assembly of a prefabricated cake, e.g. adding icing to something bought in a store. So I changed it to yaita. (Somebody may now object that this is better translated as "baked"; I think either "baked" or "made" is fine.) -- Hoary 08:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Another question about the Japanese--I only have a small amount of formal training (and a lot of anime), but shouldn't the question end in a "ka"? I'm hesitant to change it based on a single semester's worth of grammar lessons, but I've never heard of "no" as a question particle. -- 69.122.154.184 03:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm no Japanese buff myself, but Japanese particles says that no can serve as a question marker. Indeed, that article mentions not just ka and no but also kai and ne as question markers (though the four are not all interchangeable, so I recommend seeing that article for details). Ruakh 04:11, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Haven't heard of kai (this is two years of Japanese, not much). An informal question can end with no particle (only intonation), or with no to show some personal interest; ne is more like a tag question. These are gender-neutral I think, but no without interrogative intonation is typical female speech. 私の二円. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:28, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Kai corresponds less to ka than to desuka, I believe. -- Hoary 13:21, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

 * "Ka" can be used to emphasize that fact that a question is being asked, but it isn't strictly necessary. In informal speech, the difference between a statement and a question is often only intonation. (「腹が減ってる？」and「腹が減ってる. 」 being "Are you hungry?" and "I'm hungry." respectively.)  Even in formal speech, when an interrogative pronoun is used, "ka" can be omitted. (「何方です？」） Regarding the use of hiragana as opposed to writing in kanji, there are stylistic concerns, but readability is of primary importance.  A sentence written entirely in hiragana is difficult to parse, but overusing kanji is also unnatural.  美味しい is an example of ateji, but it's use is far from uncommon.　　67.22.241.88 (talk) 17:46, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

English Imperative as prodrop?
The section reads "Nonetheless, subject pronouns are almost always dropped in commands (e.g., Come here)." As these are commands, ie imperative mood, is this relevant? While English tends to use the same word form for imperative and indicative mood, as opposed to some other languages, the lack of subject is the mood marker isn't it? Even French, which as I understand is a decidedly non-prodrop language, would not require a pronoun for an imperative mood, would it? (I do not know any languages outside of Latin and English, hence why these are questions.) --Frick898 19:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

 * French is about as pro-drop as English is: i.e., not very. (There are a few instances where English uses a dummy pronoun where French wouldn't - e.g., English "I find it bizarre that you think that" vs. French "Je trouve bizarre que tu penses ça" - but then, there are some going the other way, too - e.g., English "It is as I thought" vs. French "C'est comme je l'ai pensé.")

 * Nonetheless, subject-implicit imperatives can be considered an instance of pronoun dropping (or perhaps of null subjects) in English. For example, if I say, "Wash the dishes tonight, okay?" and you reply, "No, you wash them," you're demonstrating that an imperative's subject can be included for emphasis. If you Google "go thou," you'll find a number of instances where "go" is imperative. Most of these are Biblical or obviously drawing (snowclone-style) on Biblical wording, and in seemingly all of them, "thou" is an explicitly stated subject. (In the Bible, I'd presume that the "thou" is being included to make the command singular: either one person is being addressed, or each addressee is expected to obey the command independently. This would explain why this never evolved into the use of "go you" as an imperative: "you" does not provide the same, key information that "thou" does.)

 * All that said, I think imperatives should have a separate section, not tied to any specific language, as I think that most languages (including French, as you say) allow or require subject pronouns to be dropped in the imperative. Actually, in my (admittedly limited) experience, it seems that pro-drop languages more readily permit the inclusion of subject pronouns in the imperative. (Maybe this is because pro-drop languages take it as more natural for a pronoun to present at some times and absent at others, whereas non-pro-drop languages generally need a specific pronoun-dropping rule in order to drop a pronoun? That's my guess, anyway.)

 * Ruakh 21:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

 * For what they're worth, a few more English examples:
 * "You come here!"
 * "Oh, now you stop that!"
 * "You just sit right down, now, and tell us all about it."
 * --Darrell Manrique, 12.107.67.3 12:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Those all sound slightly non-standard to me — they seem more at home in AAVE than in SAE — but I could imagine them. Ruakh 13:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, how about "Don't you dare"? --Darrell Manrique, 12.107.67.3 13:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Ooh, now that's a good example! I can't even imagine just "Don't dare." Ruakh 13:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Can you tell me a language where the imperative needs a subject? English sentences like "you come here" are not imperative. Sentences with "you" can always appear commanding, but the mood is still indicative. --2.245.154.110 (talk) 01:00, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Intro
The language survey mentions that French is an exception amongst Romance languages for not having pro-drop. This is oversimplifying, as the subjects "je", "tu", "il" etc. are now pretty much universally accepted to be affixes or clitics rather than independent (pronoun) words. Although there is a little room for argument depending on your theory of clitics/your analysis of French, there's not much reason to think that the "je" in "je mange" is any different from the "o" in Italian "mangio": both mark first person, neither is an independent pronoun. Extra evidence for this comes from the fact that (i) these clitics never appear anywhere except attached to a verb, (ii) they cannot be coordinated (*il et elle mange) and (iii) you _can_ put a genuine pronoun in subject position for stress (if only in limited situations; e.g. "lui rejette cette idée" = "HE rejects this idea"), just like in other Romance languages. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 171.64.42.67 (talk • contribs).

 * Heh, I've actually heard the exact opposite viewpoint presented, that "Lui rejette cette idée" is one of the few cases where French unambiguously exhibits pro-drop (in that the ordinary subject, il, is dropped). See e.g. Pro-Drop and Subject (Non-)Recoverability: The Case of Nez Perce, which even uses the exact same sample sentence. At any rate, yes, there is some oversimplification there; feel free to rephrase it, but be sure not to cause the opposite problem of an overcomplex or overly informative lead section. Ruakh 03:58, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Non-pro-drop-language centric?
I'm not a linguist and this is my first time to deal with this term. But I think the concept of pro-drop language is non-pro-drop-language centric. As for Japanese, speakers do not delete nouns (grammatically, pronouns are just nouns) since they do not have to be presented by default. Rather, it would be more accurate to say that speakers add nouns when they are not inferable from context or speakers want to emphasize them. Is there any professional analysis from this point of view? --Nanshu 10:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Erm... Leaving Japanese aside (because whether it really has pronouns or just specialized nouns is a problem in itself), the fact is that all languages have "pronouns" of some kind (as well as other "pro-forms"), which means that at some level all human languages "need" pronouns to fulfill some function. In the case of languages that don't mark person/number in the verb, the reason is clear; in others they may be considered as built-in redundancy to reduce confusion, and in others it is clear that they're simply "not needed" in order to understand. The goal of linguistics in this case is to research what languages drop pronouns and in which contexts, not to assume that pronouns should or should not be present. The label "pro-drop language" is incidental; it simply reflects the fact that most linguists are Westerners, speaking European languages which do not drop pronouns much and consider them a basic part of speech. For a Japanese, pronouns are much more "special", since they get by in other ways; if this study had been initiated by a Japanese linguist, s/he would've probably called English a "pro-add language", and English-speaking linguists would be enraged. :) 私の二円. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 22:44, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I think the question makes sense. Japanese doesn't really have pronouns at all. There are plenty of generic nouns you can drop in where other languages might use a pronoun, but there's nothing about these words that makes them grammatically different from other nouns. It's not so much that Japanese drops pronouns, as that it has none and only adds in generic nouns when necessary. Also, although Japanese verbs do not inflect for person, there are numerous verbs that imply specific interactions between people. E.g. "kureru" means "I receive from someone" and is used all the time in conjunction with other verbs to indicate the direction of the action; this makes the use of a noun for "I" completely unnecessary. - Paul D.

 * I think it might be worthwhile to evaluate here what we wish to classify as pro-drop-ness and what we wish to classify as null-subject-ness (though obviously both articles would have to explain that the terms aren't always used exactly the same ways, that a distinction isn't always drawn between the two, and that not everyone agrees on which languages are either, much less which). I think Japanese might be more null-subject than pro-drop. Ruakh 04:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. I have to clarify my idea. In my understanding, the distinction between noun and pronoun is not important here. Rather, the point is that Japanese does not give special grammatical status to subject and object. Maybe it has nothing to do with typological comparison but I think it goes against speakers' recognition. Here is an example.
 * watashi wa senshū no nichiyōbi ni genkin de honya de hon wo katta. (私は先週の日曜日に現金で本屋で本を買った. )
 * I bought a book with cash at the bookstore last Sunday.

We can create a verb-oriented structure as follows. Subject (I) and object (a book) are obligatory and the rest is optional in English. But in Japanese, each element has equal status. All combinations of each element are grammatically correct: katta ([I] bought [it]). watashi wa katta (I bought [it]). hon wo katta ([I] bought a book). honya de katta ([I] bought [it] at the bookstore). etc. When native speakers speak these sentences, they don't recognize that they drop subject and/or object, just as English speaking people don't think they drop "last Sunday" when saying, "I bought it." --Nanshu 23:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * bought / katta
 * I / watashi wa
 * a book / hon wo
 * with cash / genkin de
 * at the bookstore / honya de
 * last Sunday / senshū no nichiyōbi ni

I have added some information about the original "pro-drop" claims made by Chomsky (1981), where Japanese was explicitly not included. I guess the page should be re-edited according to this, but I am not sure how it could best be done. Questions in linguistics concerning pronouns and anaphora are very theory-dependent, and as Ruakh says, there is much conceptual variation and lack of concensus in this area. The literature on pro-drop and zero anaphora is enormous, and rather than editors presenting their own tentative analyses, it might be an idea to include more information on the disagreement and controversies? Nanshu´s point about all elements having equal status in Japanese is another controversial topic. Most linguists would say that subjects and objects have a different status than adjuncts in any language. Just think about topicalization - if you topicalize subjects and objects, the particles are deleted (there is no "watashi ga wa" or "hon o wa"), while all other particles stay attached ("honya de wa") - a pretty clear difference. This is more abstract than what native speakers recognize that they are doing in real time conversation, though. Grape, 26 June 2006

 * Just out of curiosity and as an example of the too often muddled linguistic thinking, particularly Chomsky's. Isn't non-pro-drop the same as drop? In any case, the pro-drop concept is certainly English centric. All the best 157.157.186.24 (talk) 20:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Brazilian Portuguese is not pro drop
We Brazilians normally use the subject pronoun with the verb, similar to Tuscan dialects of Italian:

 * Eu sei (I know) [normal]; Sei [know] rare

 * Eu gostaria (I would like to) [normal]; Gostaria [would like to] rare

 * Ela viu você (She saw you) [normal]; Viu você [saw you] rare

''Trabalhos recentes vêm apontando correlações entre esta mudança do paradigma e o uso cada vez menor de sujeitos nulos no PortuguêsBrasileiro. Destacamos o trabalho de Duarte (1993), que analisa peças de teatro populares dos séculos XIX e XX, mostrando que está ocorrendo uma mudança no PB, no sentido de não mais permitir o sujeito nulo'' (from the Orbilat page)

''Most dialects in Brazilian Portuguese exhibit evidence of an on-going loss of the properties of the null subject (NS) parameter, namely loss of the “avoid pronoun” principle and subject verb inversion (cf. Duarte 1995). Connected with this change, there is also the loss of movement of the clitics to the pre-auxiliary position, resulting in generalized proclisis to the main verb (cf. Cyrino, 1993), with the consequence that these dialects now allow clitics in sentence initial position. The changes are attributed to the loss of the second person tu, a fact that led to the impoverishment of its inflectional system.'' (from the Ohio State Univ. site)

(In Brazilian Portuguese PRODROP is obligatory only with impersonal verbs: Choveu It rained; Ofenderam vocês (You [all] were offended; with direct addressing is optional: Viu? - Você viu?- Cê viu

CÊ functions as a clitic pronoun: [vo]cê entendeu? - did you understand?; and cannot be used as an object: abandonaram você [but never abandonaram cê] = you were abandoned])

further reading:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0102-44502001000100007

http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Portuguese-Brazilian/Studies/Subject_realization.htm

http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/NWAV/Abstracts/Papr191.pdf

[Three partial pro-drop languages] http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/mtb23/NSP/Anders%20et%20al%2030%20June%20abstract.doc

The loss of the 'Avoid Pronoun Principle' in Brazilian Portuguese. M.E.L. Duarte (2000)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.131.103.29 (talk • contribs).

 * Null subjects actually occur quite often in Brazilian Portuguese. For example, "O João disse que ia falar com o professor" (Eng. "João said he would talk to the teacher", Lit. "The João said that (null subject) would talk to the teacher") or "Você sabe se o João falou com o professor ? Não, não sei." (Eng. "Do you know if João talked to the teacher ? No, I don't.", Lit. "You know if the João talked to the teacher ? No, (null subject) not know."). BP only avoids null subjects in situations where ambiguity arises, which, because of the disappearance of 2nd person verb forms, are far mor common than in European Portuguese (hence, the false impression that BP is no longer a pro-drop language).

 * BTW, contrary to what the article implies, European Portuguese can also drop object pronouns just like BP, e.g. "Viste o João ? Sim, vi." 161.24.19.82 18:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

''One remarkable difference between European and Brazilian Portuguese is related with the setting of the Null Subject Parameter (NSP). While European Portuguese (EP) behaves like a prototypical romance null subject language, contemporary Brazilian Portuguese (BP) is a partially pro-drop system (Duarte 1995; Kato 2000), with preferably overt referential subjects and null expletive subjects in finite clauses, a procedure consistent with a discourse orientation shown by BP (Kato & Duarte 2003). ''

source: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/NWAV/abstracts/nwav36_cavalcante_duarte.pdf

''EP favors null subjects in every structural context, ranging from 95% to 82%, whereas BP prefers overt pronouns not only in the most unfavorable contexts for null subjects – those in which the antecedent appears in a different syntactic function – but also in patterns showing co-referential subjects and syntactic adjacency, an optimal structural context for null subjects in languages which exhibit that property. The results bring support to the assumption that null subjects in the two varieties are of a different nature: a pronoun in EP and a pronominal anaphor in BP.'' http://www.ucy.ac.cy/~iclave4/P.%20Barbosa,%20M.%20Duarte,%20M.%20Kato.doc

Come with
The article states that the pronoun could not be dropped from "come with" in British English, I think this should be reworded to reflect that this construction is a peculiarity of the U.S. mid-west and that most people outside that area are not familiar with it, as it is worded now it makes it sound like only the British don't use this. I've lived in the U.S my whole life, and only became aware of this phrase in the last year or so; I have yet to encounter it anywhere but in writing. I also think the statement at the end emphasizing that all of the examples are very informal should be strengthened. --HarryHenryGebel 07:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I've fixed the "come with" explanation. I don't think that statement should be strengthened; we already specify "informal speech" in the text before the examples, and "very informal speech" in the text afterward, and IMHO this is already a bit of overkill. —Ruakh TALK 16:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

 * For me "come with" is a Jewish girl in Philadelphia (i.e. potentially Yiddish influence), then 10 years of "mitkommen". The midwest connection is new to me. 84.226.180.175 (talk) 12:40, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

English examples of dropping
From the article:

When answering a question, the sentence structure of the question is often dropped from the answer.

 * So, what did you think of the play? — [I think that the play was ] excellent!
 * When will you be coming back home? — [I will be coming back home] tomorrow.
 * How are you feeling today? — [I am feeling] tired.

 * Okay, doesn't every language do this, just out of laziness? I think some other languages deserve a mention as well. --Liface (talk) 08:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I just deleted these. I think there's absolutely no reason to suspect this is any kind of elision. These are constituent questions, a.k.a "wh-questions". The way they work is that you have a sentence where one constituent indicates missing information, i.e. in the second example "when" indicates that the speaker wants to know at what time the proposition (YOU COME BACK HOME) applies. The answer typically supplies only the information that was missing.
 * In the three (admittedly not so different) languages I am fluent in and the 3 other languages I have learned, it would be awkward to give a "full" answer of the sort that these examples suggest as underlying. I would be surprised if any language in the world requires this type of answer mandatorily in anything but the official register, or even in such. If someone still thinks this idea is valid, please provide a citation to support it before putting it back in, it is confusing. -Michael Sappir • (Talk) 01:44, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm not so sure. No expert, of course, but just looking at the examples given for Japanese and Chinese (the tasty cake), if you delete the inferred words from the english translation, it looks like a viable conversation apart from the missing "it". IE the reply works perfectly well as "Dunno... you like?" 77.102.101.220 (talk) 01:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Any non-pro-drop language outside of West Europe?
I know pro-drop is a common term, but a category like pro-drop languages sounds as vague as non-click languages. As far as I know, it is non-pro-drop that is unusual among world languages, and it is a recent innovation. Do you know any non-European language that is non-pro-drop and uses dummy subjects as in it rains? - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You might be right, but you shouldn't add an unsourced sentence to the article and then ask for other people to verify it on the talk page! CapnPrep (talk) 13:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have a few sources but they are written in Japanese. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 17:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Non-English language sourcing is acceptable when there are no other alternatives. Other people can help finding a tranlation or equivalent. I mean it is better than nothing. --Lgriot (talk) 01:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Examples for Romance languages
If it could be of any utility, archaic and old (Galician-)Portuguese and Spanish presented a very different state of things from today. Sp. "voy" or Pt. "vou" come from "allá voy" or "lá vou" (lit. "I go there"), this kind of sentences very alive until very recently. That origin is not very different for instance of that of "j'y vais" or "hi vaig", where the "y"/"hi" come from Latin "hic" (here). In mediaeval times, Pt. also presented "vou i" (exactly the same as the rest of romance languages), I am not sure about Sp. but it cannot be very different from this. About partitive, also in the past (and dialectally today) can be traced: it is not unusual in Galicia today (but not common) to hear "como do pan", which is truly a partitive, also, "tenho quatro deles" (lit. I have four of them) or "tengo cuatro de esos" (of those) is a standard sentence, of course, you can drop it today if context does not need to clear it, but (at least in mediaeval times and in G-Pt.) was compulsory.212.51.52.7 (talk) 14:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Map
I don't quite get the colors on the map: yellow and pink are pro-drop? I think we should have all the colors in the legend. --Lgriot (talk) 01:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yellow, pink and grey are pro-drop, except Russian (pink) and the Celtic languages (yellow). So the colors are partially wrong, and there is no legend to explain anything. This map is no use. I have complained on the talk page of the map too. --Curryfranke (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

South Asian languages
External link --Pawyilee (talk) 10:45, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Interlinear glosses for examples?
Hi, I found plenty of relevant and interesting information in this entry. It would be great to add interlinear glosses for examples.

For example, the Chinese 谁考的 gets a 'literal' translation as "Who bake" with no mention of the "de" 的 (nominalizer, complementizer/relativizer?) which is in fact an important component of this example. Of course interlinear glosses can't explain everything but they provide useful pointers.

(I'm not a specialist of the topic; I do a lot of interlinear glossing on languages I work on, but for Standard Mandarin Chinese, I have no experience and wouldn't want to butt in without knowing common practice.)

--AlexisMichaud (talk) 08:35, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

In English
Was the second-person singular pronoun ′thou' dropped more often, especially when used with ′-st′ form of second-person singular verbs? I remembered this being done often in the novel 'Kim' by Rudyard Kipling, but when I actually looked it up, I could find only one instance:

″Thou leanest on me in the body, Holy One, but I lean on thee for some other things. Dost know it?″

So is this an isolated exception or was this form more common historically? SundaLives 14:19, 2 January 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SundaLives (talk • contribs)

Strange way of putting it
Proponents of the term "pro-drop" take the view that pronouns which in other languages would have those referents can be omitted, or be phonologically null.

This unclear and convoluted sentence makes it sound like a disagreement among factions of linguists over whether certain pronouns are allowed to be dropped in certain languages.

But in reality, I suspect all parties agree on which exemplary sentences are correct, but only disagree on the deeper structures that are to be inferred or the descriptive language to use.

If they disagree about anything. The sentence suggests that there is a controversy about the term, when probably there is none. In any case it is not explained. 84.227.228.178 (talk) 12:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

English is Pro-drop alright
Dropping is used all the time in English. It's probably started with postcards, being brief, and it's popularised in songs:

"(so/just)Feel it in the one-drop, And we'll still find time to rap." And, no, that's not an Imperative, is it now? Get it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stjohn1970 (talk • contribs) 15:10, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

 * Pro-drop in English is either informal with "I" only (Love this! To mean "I love this") or commands.

It's not used all the time, please, mention pro-drop that occurs all the time with she/he/we/you/they to demonstrate what you say.

French as pro-drop
Please explain: "including French, (standard)", When non-standard French could be pro-drop, I don't get it, and I cannot find any examples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talk) 13:11, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Latin?
Why is Latin not used as a prime example of pro-drop? E.g., sum abbas [normal], ego sum abbas [emphatic]; dicite [imperative, unique]? I know it's not a 'live' modern language (tho it is lingua franca for some), but it is well-known to many English-speakers with even the beginning of a classical education (or perhaps I'm very old-fashioned, as Peter Cook would say. And its rules are so well-defined and fixed!

Content Addition
We will be providing structural edits and adding new content to this page focused on Full Pro-Drop. This is part of a course-based activity of a 3rd year syntax course, and we anticipate having completed our edits by the end of December. We would appreciate any and all constructive comments and suggestions about how to improve the overall quality of this article. S Senghera (talk) 08:47, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Portuguese European vs. Brazilian contrast example
Under the Portuguese section, it says "While European Portuguese (EP) is a full pro-drop language, Brazilian Portuguese (BP) exhibits partial pro-drop. The two are compared below, respectively:", but as far as I can tell, the subsequent example ("Examples of omitted subject:") doesn't seem to demonstrate the full vs. partial pro-drop contrast, as both sentences seem to match 1-to-1 in terms of pro-drop. Could we add or replace it with a better example? SirLurksalot (talk) 10:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Mandarin Error
Under Pro-Drop Languages, for Mandarin, "The above-mentioned examples from Japanese are readily rendered into Mandarin [example] Unlike in Japanese, the inclusion of the dropped pronouns does not make the sentence sound unnatural." The example text provided in Mandarin as a translation of the Japanese equivalent does not include the dropped pronouns. Matter of fact, both the inclusion and exclusion of appropriate pronouns within these examples in Mandarin sound natural and appropriate. Therefore, providing the Mandarin translation as an example is not necessary at all as neither it being equivalent or opposite of it's Japanese counterpart is inaccurate. Any relation to it regarding the Japanese example should be removed as it is misleading. Bzandronicus (talk) 08:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pro-drop language


text:
User:Unlessimwrong

I wish there could be only a single wikipedia that automatically translates to all languages, especially in discussions, that would be real fun, when one considers the differences in descriptions of the most banal 1+1 facts in some of the entries composed by speakers of hebrew, arabic, english etc... needless to say, I am a disgusted opponent of moral relativism, and I think it represents a decline in human culture- an ostrichian repression of unpleasant truths. Facts are not everything, but they are something.

Relativism, like anarchism has developed exclusively from rational judgemental cultures which it rejects, but without which it would never have even existed, nor can it ever survive on the present planet for long without the tolerance and support of their military, economic and political infrastracture. In other words- an armchair hobby practiced by a minority elite of proponents, not intended for the masses.

Whatever beliefs a person holds, I hold them to be inherently suspect if they willingly depend on rival ideologies which they reject, e.g. indulging Aristocrats who support Communism, such as the Cambridge Five. And yes, some beliefs are inferior to others- generally, the more reluctant are their proponents to compare, debate and prove and their ideas, the less I am impressed.

Comments appreciated.

 * . Disclaimer: except in extreme situations of mortal danger.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Unlessimwrong


text: User talk:66.144.57.40

title: User talk:66.144.57.40


text:
Lateran Museum

The Lateran Museum (Museo Lateranense) was a museum founded by the Popes and housed in the Lateran Palace, adjacent to the Archbasilica of Saint John Lateran in Rome, Italy. It ceased to exist in 1970.

Pope Gregory XVI (1831–1846) established the Museo Profano Lateranense (or Museo Gregoriano Profano) in 1844. Its collections initially consisted of statues, bas-relief sculptures and mosaics of the Roman era. The museum was enlarged in 1854 under Pius IX (1846–1878) with the addition of the Museo Pio Cristiano. This collection was assembled by the archaeologists Father Giuseppe Marchi and Giovanni Battista de Rossi. Marchi collected the sculptured monuments of the early Christian period, while de Rossi the ancient Christian inscriptions. A third department of the museum consisted of copies of some of the more important catacomb frescoes. Father Marchi was appointed the director of the new institution. In 1910, under the pontificate of Pius X (1903–1914), the Hebrew Lapidary (Lapidario Ebraico) was established. This section contained 137 inscriptions from ancient Hebrew cemeteries in Rome mostly from via Portuense. The Museo Missionario Etnografico was founded by Pius XI with the documents and relics exhibited in Rome at the Missionary Exposition in 1925, and included historical documents of Missions and relics from the people where these missions took place. The three collections were transferred, under the pontificate of Pope John XXIII (1958–1963), from the Lateran Palace to the Vatican. They were reopened to the public in 1970. Their collections are still called "ex Lateranense" to indicate their former place of display.

The Lateran Palace is now occupied by the Museo Storico Vaticano which illustrates the history of the Papal States. It was moved to the palace in 1987 and inaugurated in 1991.

title: Lateran Museum


text:
Bethany Global University

Bethany Global University (formally Bethany College of Missions) is a private Evangelical Christian university in Bloomington, Minnesota. Its primary focus is on training missionaries and it was founded in 1948. It is one of nine work colleges in the United States.

Academics
The institution offers educational programs with a focus on theology, ministry, and Biblical outreach. Programs include certificates, Associate of Arts, Bachelor of Arts, and master's programs. All of the master's degree programs are provided entirely online.

title: Bethany Global University


text:
Clive Russell

Clive Russell (born 7 December 1945) is a Scottish actor. He is known for his roles as Chief Inspector Frederick Abberline in Ripper Street, Angus O'Connor in Happiness and Brynden Tully in the HBO series Game of Thrones.

He also appeared in the Scottish sitcoms Still Game and Rab C Nesbitt, teen drama Hollyoaks as Jack Osborne's brother Billy Brodie and British crime drama Cracker as Danny Fitzgerald.

Early life
Russell was born in the North Riding of Yorkshire, England but brought up in Fife, Scotland.

Career
Russell first performed before an audience in 1960 on The Shari Lewis Show, but it was not until 1980 that he had his first real acting job – performing on the London stage as the superintendent in Nobel Prize-winner Dario Fo's satire Accidental Death of an Anarchist, about police corruption in Italy. The reviews were good, and he reprised that role for television in 1983. After further honing his skills in various British TV productions and a handful of films – including Jute City, The Power of One, The Hawk and Seconds Out – Russell received exposure before international audiences as Caleb Garth in the celebrated BBC miniseries Middlemarch, based on the George Eliot novel of the same name. A year later, he fell in love on the movie screen with Helena Bonham Carter in Margaret's Museum, for which he earned a Genie nomination at the 16th Genie Awards for Best Performance by an Actor in a Leading Role. After more TV roles and another film, Russell played Ralph Fiennes' father in another critically acclaimed film, Oscar and Lucinda. Growing recognition of his acting skills then brought him major roles in four major TV miniseries: Great Expectations, Oliver Twist, The Railway Children and The Mists of Avalon.

Television
Standing 6' 6", Russell is a familiar and unforgettable face on British television and has appeared in numerous television series including Boys from the Blackstuff, Hope and Glory, Neverwhere, Great Expectations, The Mists of Avalon, Heartburn Hotel, Roughnecks, Monarch of the Glen, Midsomer Murders, Waking the Dead, Silent Witness, Rockface, and Spaced. Russell has also made appearances in Still Game, Happiness, Auf Wiedersehen, Pet, Cracker and The Railway Children. From 2005 to 2006, Russell played Phil Nail in ITV's Coronation Street. Russell made an appearance in Waterloo Road as Lisa and Lenny Brown's grandfather for one episode, also playing Billy Wilson for two in Shameless. He also appeared as a doctor in the 2006 My Family Christmas Special.

He has appeared as Jock in the third series of the BBC's Jam and Jerusalem, as "Bayard, King of Mercia" in Merlin and in Hotel Babylon as an artist forced to fake his own death when he is in debt. In 2012, he joined the cast of the HBO fantasy drama Game of Thrones as Brynden "The Blackfish" Tully.

In 2016, he joined the cast of Hollyoaks as Billy, brother of established character Jack Osborne

In January 2017 he had a small role in the BBC Three comedy "Uncle", portraying Sam and Andy's father and later in the year appeared in Doc Martin. He played Ken Hollister.

In 2020, he appeared as Wroth, Chief of a Fey tribe called the Tusks, a recurring character for 5 episodes in the Netflix series Cursed.

Films
In Margaret's Museum, he starred opposite Helena Bonham Carter as the Gaelic-speaking Neil Currie. Russell's other film credits include Festival, Ladies in Lavender, King Arthur, Made of Honour, Lecture 21, The 13th Warrior and The Wolfman.

He made an appearance in the 2009 film Sherlock Holmes as Captain Tanner, and reprised the role in the film's 2011 sequel, Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows. He appeared in the 2010 film The Wolfman as MacQueen. Russell also appeared in Robin Hardy's The Wicker Tree which was released in the first quarter of 2012, playing the character of Beame alongside the Hobbit star Graham McTavish.

He played Inspector Frederick Abberline in BBC One's Ripper Street. He played Tyr in the live-action film Thor: The Dark World (2013).

Edinburgh Fringe 2010
In 2010, Russell made his debut one-man show Touching the Blue.

title: Clive Russell


text:
Langley School

Langley School may refer to:

 * Langley School, Loddon, Norfolk, England
 * Langley School, Solihull, West Midlands, England
 * Langley Grammar School, Berkshire, England
 * Langley Secondary School, British Columbia, Canada

title: Langley School


text: User talk:66.144.72.49

title: User talk:66.144.72.49


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ZERP

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. – ABCD 23:18, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ZERP
Product seems to be a rumor. As far as I can tell, nothing has happened for at least a year. If there is something to show, read the article. Until then Delete. S.K. 16:56, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Useless. The JPS 18:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete After the product comes out and proves to be notable, the article can be resubmitted. Mwanner 21:20, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ZERP


text:
Talk:Frobenius group

Examples
How exactly (i.e. which kind of set and action) is the Frobenius structure realized in the case of 2 × 2 upper triangular matrices in the case of an arbitrary ring R (the third example)? One might be tempted to represent this group by affine transformations a*x+b, where a is invertible in the ring. But the fixed point equation in this case ax+b=x is equivalent to (a-1)x= -b which could have more than 1 solutions if (a-1) is not invertible...(which might happen). --212.18.24.11 16:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This was an error and has been corrected. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by R.e.b. (talk• contribs) 20:08, 15 April 2005 (UTC)

Upper triangular matrices are Frobenius if thecharacteristic is 2. Examples: TL(2,q) for q=3,5,7,9,11,13,17,19,23,25,27,... have complement subgroups which are their own normalizers but all contain the non trivial center of TL(2,q), and so are not Frobenius. for q=4,8,16,32, ... this center is trivial. --213.224.110.147 07:25, 4 July 2007

I think the matrix example should just be removed. The previous comment points out that if the group has a nontrivial center, then it is not a Frobenius group. In fact, for all q, TL(2,q) has a center of size q-1, since [z,0;0,z] commutes with [a,b;0,c]. While the 2x2 upper triangular matrices modulo their center do form a Frobenius group, they just form the same group mentioned right before them, AGL(1,q). JackSchmidt 16:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The action of AGL(1,q) as a transformation group is not on GF(q) but on the right cosets of the complement subgroup, x -> ax, a<>0 by right multiplication. 213.224.110.136 07:31, 5 July 2007

The action of AGL(1,q) is on GF(q), which, by the orbit-stabilizer theorem, is in natural correspondence with the right cosets Hb={ x -> ax+b : a in GF(q), a <> 0 } of the complement subgroup H={ x -> ax : a <> 0 }. Your edit on the main article is good, but so was the original text. JackSchmidt 12:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I have objections against the term 'natural action on GF(q)' in the old text. There is no direct (geometrical) way to define this group as a permutation group on GF(q). You have to pass via the cosets and a bijection of these cosets onto GF(q) and there are q! of these. Which is the natural one? That depends on one's taste. You give (x -> ax+b) -> b. Why not (x -> ax+b) -> b+1? In any case you have to pass by the cosets of H, so why not stop there?

By the way there is a natural way to define these Frobenius groups by their action on GF(q) as follows: They are 1-point stabilizers (fixing the point at infinity) of the image PSL(2,q) of SL(2,q) in PGL(2,q) acting on the projective line PG(1,q) with q+1 points by the projective transformations x -> (ax+b)/(cx+d) a,b,c,d in GF(q) and ad-bc a square <> 0 in GF(q) Here the complements(consisting of the elements fixing the point at infinity and one other point in PG(1,q)) are cyclic of order e(q-1) with e=1 for q even, 1/2 for q odd; and the kernel(consisting of the unity and the elements fixing the point at infinity and regular on the other points) is elementary abelian of order q and disjoint from its conjugates in PSL(2,q). 213.224.108.123 06:23, 6 July 2007

I think the action is natural, but only because of the specific way the group elements themselves are defined. The way the group is presented is explicitly as permutations on GF(q). Each element is explicitly a bijective function from GF(q) to GF(q) given by the rule x -> a*x + b. In the PGL(2,q) terms, c=0,d=1.

In other words, I think we agree. When the elements are functions, the action is natural. When the elements are not, then there is choice.

The stabilizer of a point in PGL(2,q) is isomorphic to AGL(1,q), and the stabilizer of a point in PSL(2,q) is isomorphic to "ASL(1,q)" which is only half as big when q is odd. Both AGL(1,q) and ASL(1,q) are usually Frobenius groups. For q=2, AGL(1,q) = ASL(1,q) = { x -> x, x->x+1 } is regular. For q=3, ASL(1,q) = { x->x, x->x+1, x->x+2 } is regular. For q>2, AGL(1,q) is a Frobenius group, and for q>3, ASL(1,q) is a Frobenius group, and for q>3 odd, ASL(1,q) is even a Frobenius group which is distinct from AGL(1,q).

Should we add ASL(1,q) to the examples?

As a reference, we can use Dixon&Mortimer's text on Permutation Groups, section 2.8. It has the nice description you gave of AGL <= PGL, for instance. In fact, later in section 3.4, it generalizes both AGL and ASL as example 3.4.1:

"Let U denote a [nonidentity] subgroup of the group of units of a field F. Then the set G consisting of all permutations of F of the form x -> ax + b with a in U and b in F is a Frobenius group where the point stabilizer of 0 [in F] is { x -> ax : a in U } =~ U.  The elements which fix no points, together with the identity, are the translations { x -> x+b : b in F }.  These translations constitute a normal subgroup K =~ (F,+) of G."

JackSchmidt 14:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I begin to understand your insistence in calling x-> ax+b natural actions on GF(q). Frobenius groups are special cases of transitive permutation groups. Transitive permutation representations are always generated by the action of the group on the cosets of a subgroup, but only rarely such a permutation representation is a Frobenius group. Such cases are the AGL(1,q) groups acting on the cosets of a (Frobenius) complement. But this action is not permutation equivalent with the natural action of these groups on GF(q) as affine groups if q is not a prime. The latter are not even permutation representations if q is not a prime (try q=4 x->2x: 0 and 2 are both transformed in 0). So with this natural action on GF(q) the AGL(1,q) groups are not Frobenius groups if q is not a prime. The natural action of these groups considered as 1-point stabilizers in PSL(2,q) acting on the projective line PG(1,q) is a permutation representation of the AGL(1,q) that is permutation equivalent with their action on the cosets of H. So these actions may be called natural actions of Frobenius groups on GF(q), not the actions as affine transformations. 213.224.111.158 09:08, 7 July 2007

In GF(q) with q=4, 0=2 are the same element, and x->2x is the same as x->0, which is not an element of AGL(1,q). GF(4) is the field with 4 elements, not Z/4Z.

The action of AGL(1,q) as a subgroup of PGL(2,q) acting in your geometrical way, and the action of AGL(1,q) are identical. I am confused that you seem to say they are different. In PGL(2,q), we have the functions on PG(1,q) = GF(q) union {oo} which take x in PG(1,q) to (a*x+b)/(c*x+d), for arbitrary elements a,b,c,d in GF(q) with ad-bc nonzero. These functions take oo to "a/c" where this is in GF(q) if c is nonzero, and is oo if c is zero. In other words, the stabilizer of the point oo is precisely those functions which have c=0, and so WLOG d=1. In other words, the stabilizer of the point oo is precisely those functions x -> a*x + b.

Here is a tiny example (too tiny for AGL(1,q) be a Frobenius group) to show what I mean: PGL(2,2) has six elements, namely { x -> x, x -> x+1, x -> 1/x, x -> 1/(x+1), x -> x/(x+1), x -> (x+1)/x }. These six elements are functions on PG(1,q) = { 0,1,oo }. As permutations in cycle notation with trivial cycles shown, the six elements are { (0)(1)(oo), (0,1)(oo), (0,oo)(1), (0,1,oo), (0)(1,oo), (0,oo,1) }. The stabilizer of oo is then just the first and second elements, since all other elements move oo. AGL(1,2) = { x -> x, x -> x + 1 } = { (0)(1), (0,1) }.

JackSchmidt 19:14, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

You are right that my argument was completely wrong. AGL(1,q) acting naturally on GF(q) as affine transformations define Frobenius groups. This action is permutation equivalent with the action on the cosets of a complement. Thanks for the lesson. 213.224.111.158 11:10, 8 July 2007

I think your comments about PGL could be a good addition to the article. Also, as you pointed out, another Frobenius group is { x -> a*x + b | a,b in GF(q), a is a nonzero square }.

I think PGL(2,q) is a fairly important group for lots of reasons, and the fact that its point stabilizer has such a nice structure is certainly interesting.

One idea would be to bring in the material from chapter XI on Zassenhaus groups from Huppert and Blackburn's text, Finite Groups III. If a permutation group has the property that for every two triples of distinct points there is one and only one group element taking one to the other, then the group is called sharply 3-transitive, and the group must be PGL(2,q) or this slightly weird subgroup of PGammaL(2,q) called M(q) in the book and PSL(2,q).2_3 in the ATLAS, at least when q=p^2.

I don't know exactly the best way to bring these in, but surely PGL(2,q) and PSL(2,q) are important enough to be mentioned somewhere as naturally containing one of the main examples of Frobenius groups.

JackSchmidt 14:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Anon question
Did Zassenheus really prove that if the Frobenius complement contains a generalized quaternion subgroup that the stucture is like the one given? I have found this result if one assumes that the Frobenius complement is non-solvable in which case the sylow 2-subgroups would be generalized quarternion but the statement seems to apply that for a solvable Frobenius group, the complement is metacyclic (as all Sylow groups are cyclic). Is this true?

67.184.176.21 07:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

So based on the this link http://verdi.algebra.unilinz.ac.at/Projects/FWF/P15691/antrag/node4.html, it appears that there is a mistake as suspected. They have given an example at the very bottom of the page of a Frobenius group with abelian Frobenius kernel and quaternion Frobenius complement so Zassenheus didn't show what is claimed on the page.

67.184.176.21 17:35, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understand the statement in the examples of Frobenius groups with regards to using a non-trivial subgroup of the Frobenius kernel to construct another Frobenius group. Do you mean replacing the Frobenius kernel of an existing Frobebius group with any subgroup and keeping the complement the same? I know that if the order of the kernel is k and that of the compleement is h that h divides k-1, but this would mean you could take a cyclic subgroup of the kernel of prime order and then h would have to divide p-1 for every prime dividing the order of the kernel. Is this true?

67.184.176.21 18:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

These were errors and have been fixed. R.e.b. 21:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Alternate definitions
Frobenius groups have a number of nice alternative definitions. It might good to add a few alternate definitions. However, before I did, I wanted to see if someone knew what happened here:

One particularly simple definition was reverted in the as being unintuitive and incorrect. While I will certainly agree the non-definition phrasing was awkward and the revert was needed, the definition was quite correct and is proposition 8.5.5 of Robinson's text on group theory and *definition* 7.1 in Isaac's text on character theory. The definition is intuitively interesting as it says that not only is the subgroup self-normalizing, but it is self-normalizing in a very strong way, H^x n H = 1 for x not in H.

A few other nice definitions are given in Isaacs's text on character theory. I think the definitions given in problem 7.1 are nice in that they show that in a semidirect product, being a Frobenius group is equivalent to either the kernel being a strong sort of self-centralizing, or the complement being a strong sort of self-centralizing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JackSchmidt (talk • contribs) 2007-07-05T20:47:06Z

Factoids for the todo
The sourcing and direction of the article is a little lacking.

Some random facts that might be worth integrating as those two are fixed: At any rate, these should help give the article a little more direction and historical context. JackSchmidt (talk) 19:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Every finite p-group is a subgroup of a frobenius kernel (since the sylow p-subgroup of GL(n,p^f) is often a kernel with prime order complement), but an abelian p-group is a frobenius kernel iff (Wu 1998)
 * No non-character-theoretic proof is known for the fact that the kernel is a subgroup (Isaacs's FGT is a recent source for this potentially dated claim), but several special cases (even order complement (Burnside), solvable complement (Grün), "maximal" size ([G:H]=|H|+1), and [G:H] prime power order) are easier and described in Ito's notes and Isaacs's FGT.
 * The relationship to the development of character theory is not adequately described (Isaacs's CT or Collins's RaCoFG contain citable versions), and it might be nice to include the relationship with the Feit-Thompson theorem through Suzuki and Feit's work on CA and CN groups
 * The relationship to zassenhaus groups and near-fields is not mentioned (Hall's ToG should work, though Suzuki's papers and textbook are also helpful)

Generalisation to infinite sets?
"In mathematics, a Frobenius group is a transitive permutation group on a finite set, such that no non-trivial element fixes more than one point and some non-trivial element fixes a point."

Is there a name for the same thing but with "finite" replaced with "infinite" or removed altogether? It seems there ought to be. I can think of a few examples, such as SE(2) and the one-dimensional affine group. — Smjg (talk) 20:46, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Frobenius group


text:
Gamma spectroscopy

Gamma-ray spectroscopy is the qualitative study of the energy spectra of gamma-ray sources, such as in the nuclear industry, geochemical investigation, and astrophysics. Gamma-ray spectrometry, on the other hand, is the method used to acquire a quantitative spectrum measurement.

Most radioactive sources produce gamma rays, which are of various energies and intensities. When these emissions are detected and analyzed with a spectroscopy system, a gamma-ray energy spectrum can be produced.

A detailed analysis of this spectrum is typically used to determine the identity and quantity of gamma emitters present in a gamma source, and is a vital tool in radiometric assay. The gamma spectrum is characteristic of the gamma-emitting nuclides contained in the source, just like in an optical spectrometer, the optical spectrum is characteristic of the material contained in a sample.

Gamma ray characteristics
Gamma rays are the highest-energy form of electromagnetic radiation, being physically the same as all other forms (e.g., X-rays, visible light, infrared, radio) but having (in general) higher photon energy due to their shorter wavelength. Because of this, the energy of gamma-ray photons can be resolved individually, and a gamma-ray spectrometer can measure and display the energies of the gamma-ray photons detected.

Radioactive nuclei (radionuclides) commonly emit gamma rays in the energy range from a few keV to ~10 MeV, corresponding to the typical energy levels in nuclei with reasonably long lifetimes. Such sources typically produce gamma-ray "line spectra" (i.e., many photons emitted at discrete energies), whereas much higher energies (upwards of 1 TeV) may occur in the continuum spectra observed in astrophysics and elementary particle physics. The difference between gamma rays and X-rays is somewhat blurred. Gamma rays arise from transitions between nuclear energy levels and are monoenergetic, whereas X-rays are either related to transitions between atomic energy levels (characteristic X rays, which are monoenergetic), or are electrically generated (X-ray tube, linear accelerator) and have a broad energy range.

Components of a gamma spectrometer
The main components of a gamma spectrometer are the energy-sensitive radiation detector and the electronic devices that analyse the detector output signals, such as a pulse sorter (i.e., multichannel analyzer). Additional components may include signal amplifiers, rate meters, peak position stabilizers, and data handling devices.

Detector
Gamma spectroscopy detectors are passive materials that are able to interact with incoming gamma rays. The most important interaction mechanisms are the photoelectric effect, the Compton effect, and pair production. Through these processes, the energy of the gamma ray is absorbed and converted into a voltage signal by detecting the energy difference before and after the interaction (or, in a scintillation counter, the emitted photons using a photomultiplier). The voltage of the signal produced is proportional to the energy of the detected gamma ray. Common detector materials include sodium iodide (NaI) scintillation counters and high-purity germanium detectors.

To accurately determine the energy of the gamma ray, it is advantageous if the photoelectric effect occurs, as it absorbs all of the energy of the incident ray. Absorbing all the energy is also possible when a series of these interaction mechanisms take place within the detector volume. With Compton interaction or pair production, a portion of the energy may escape from the detector volume, without being absorbed. The absorbed energy thus gives rise to a signal that behaves like a signal from a ray of lower energy. This leads to a spectral feature overlapping the regions of lower energy. Using larger detector volumes reduces this effect. More sophisticated methods of reducing this effect include using Compton-suppression shields and employing segmented detectors with add-back (see: clover (detector)).

Data acquisition
The voltage pulses produced for every gamma ray that interacts within the detector volume are then analyzed by a multichannel analyzer (MCA). In the MCA, a pulse-shaping amplifier takes the transient voltage signal and reshapes it into a Gaussian or trapezoidal shape. From this shape, the signal is then converted into a digital form, using a fast analog-to-digital converter (ADC). In new systems with a very high-sampling-rate ADC, the analog-to-digital conversion can be performed without reshaping.

Additional logic in the MCA then performs pulse-height analysis, sorting the pulses by their height into specific bins, or channels. Each channel represents a specific range of energy in the spectrum, the number of detected signals for each channel represents the spectral intensity of the radiation in this energy range. By changing the number of channels, it is possible to fine-tune the spectral resolution and sensitivity.

The MCA can send its data to a computer, which stores, displays, and further analyzes the data. A variety of software packages are available from several manufacturers, and generally include spectrum analysis tools such as energy calibration (converting bins to energies), peak area and net area calculation, and resolution calculation.

A USB sound card can serve as a cheap, consumer off-the-shelf ADC, a technique pioneered by Marek Dolleiser. Specialized computer software performs pulse-height analysis on the digitized waveform, forming a complete MCA. Sound cards have high-speed but low-resolution (up to 192 kHz) ADC chips, allowing for reasonable quality for a low-to-medium count rate. The "sound card spectrometer" has been further refined in amateur and professional circles.

Detector performance
Gamma spectroscopy systems are selected to take advantage of several performance characteristics. Two of the most important include detector resolution and detector efficiency.

Detector energy resolution
Gamma rays detected in a spectroscopic system produce peaks in the spectrum. These peaks can also be called lines by analogy to optical spectroscopy. The width of the peaks is determined by the resolution of the detector, a very important characteristic of gamma spectroscopic detectors, and high resolution enables the spectroscopist to separate two gamma lines that are close to each other. Gamma spectroscopy systems are designed and adjusted to produce symmetrical peaks of the best possible resolution. The peak shape is usually a Gaussian distribution. In most spectra the horizontal position of the peak is determined by the gamma ray's energy, and the area of the peak is determined by the intensity of the gamma ray and the efficiency of the detector.

The most common figure used to express detector resolution is full width at half maximum (FWHM). This is the width of the gamma ray peak at half of the highest point on the peak distribution. Energy resolution figures are given with reference to specified gamma ray energies. Resolution can be expressed in absolute (i.e., eV or MeV) or relative terms. For example, a sodium iodide (NaI) detector may have a FWHM of 9.15 keV at 122 keV, and 82.75 keV at 662 keV. These resolution values are expressed in absolute terms. To express the energy resolution in relative terms, the FWHM in eV or MeV is divided by the energy of the gamma ray and usually shown as percentage. Using the preceding example, the resolution of the detector is 7.5% at 122 keV, and 12.5% at 662 keV. A typical resolution of a coaxial germanium detector is about 2 keV at 1332 keV, yielding a relative resolution of 0.15%.

Detector efficiency
Not all gamma rays emitted by the source that pass through the detector will produce a count in the system. The probability that an emitted gamma ray will interact with the detector and produce a count is the efficiency of the detector. High-efficiency detectors produce spectra in less time than low-efficiency detectors. In general, larger detectors have higher efficiency than smaller detectors, although the shielding properties of the detector material are also important factors. Detector efficiency is measured by comparing a spectrum from a source of known activity to the count rates in each peak to the count rates expected from the known intensities of each gamma ray.

Efficiency, like resolution, can be expressed in absolute or relative terms. The same units are used (i.e., percentages); therefore, the spectroscopist must take care to determine which kind of efficiency is being given for the detector. Absolute efficiency values represent the probability that a gamma ray of a specified energy passing through the detector will interact and be detected. Relative efficiency values are often used for germanium detectors, and compare the efficiency of the detector at 1332 keV to that of a 3 in × 3 in NaI detector (i.e., 1.2×10 −3 cps/Bq at 25 cm). Relative efficiency values greater than one hundred percent can therefore be encountered when working with very large germanium detectors.

The energy of the gamma rays being detected is an important factor in the efficiency of the detector. An efficiency curve can be obtained by plotting the efficiency at various energies. This curve can then be used to determine the efficiency of the detector at energies different from those used to obtain the curve. High-purity germanium (HPGe) detectors typically have higher sensitivity.

Scintillation detectors
Scintillation detectors use crystals that emit light when gamma rays interact with the atoms in the crystals. The intensity of the light produced is usually proportional to the energy deposited in the crystal by the gamma ray; a well known situation where this relationship fails is the absorption of < 200 keV radiation by intrinsic and doped sodium iodide detectors. The mechanism is similar to that of a thermoluminescent dosimeter. The detectors are joined to photomultipliers; a photocathode converts the light into electrons; and then by using dynodes to generate electron cascades through delta ray production, the signal is amplified. Common scintillators include thallium-doped sodium iodide (NaI(Tl))—often simplified to sodium iodide (NaI) detectors—and bismuth germanate (BGO). Because photomultipliers are also sensitive to ambient light, scintillators are encased in light-tight coverings.

Scintillation detectors can also be used to detect alpha- and beta-radiation.

Sodium iodide-based detectors
Thallium-doped sodium iodide (NaI(Tl)) has two principal advantages: NaI(Tl) is also convenient to use, making it popular for field applications such as the identification of unknown materials for law enforcement purposes.
 * 1) It can be produced in large crystals, yielding good efficiency, and
 * 2) it produces intense bursts of light compared to other spectroscopic scintillators.

Electron hole recombination will emit light that can re-excite pure scintillation crystals; however, the thallium dopant in NaI(Tl) provides energy states within the band gap between the conduction and valence bands. Following excitation in doped scintillation crystals, some electrons in the conduction band will migrate to the activator states; the downward transitions from the activator states will not re-excite the doped crystal, so the crystal is transparent to this radiation.

An example of a NaI spectrum is the gamma spectrum of the caesium isotope 137Caesium—see Figure 1. 137Caesium emits a single gamma line of 662 keV. The 662 keV line shown is actually produced by 137mBarium, the decay product of 137Caesium, which is in secular equilibrium with 137Caesium.

The spectrum in Figure 1 was measured using a NaI-crystal on a photomultiplier, an amplifier, and a multichannel analyzer. The figure shows the number of counts within the measuring period versus channel number. The spectrum indicates the following peaks (from left to right):
 * 1) low energy x radiation (due to internal conversion of the gamma ray),
 * 2) backscatter at the low energy end of the Compton distribution, and
 * 3) a photopeak (full energy peak) at an energy of 662 keV

The Compton distribution is a continuous distribution that is present up to channel 150 in Figure 1. The distribution arises because of primary gamma rays undergoing Compton scattering within the crystal: Depending on the scattering angle, the Compton electrons have different energies and hence produce pulses in different energy channels.

If many gamma rays are present in a spectrum, Compton distributions can present analysis challenges. To reduce gamma rays, an anticoincidence shield can be used—see Compton suppression. Gamma ray reduction techniques are especially useful for small lithium-doped germanium (Ge(Li)) detectors.

The gamma spectrum shown in Figure 2 is of the cobalt isotope 60Cobalt, with two gamma rays with 1.17 MeV and 1.33 MeV respectively. (See the decay scheme article for the decay scheme of cobalt-60.) The two gamma lines can be seen well-separated; the peak to the left of channel 200 most likely indicates a strong background radiation source that has not been subtracted. A backscatter peak can be seen near channel 150, similar to the second peak in Figure 1.

Sodium iodide systems, as with all scintillator systems, are sensitive to changes in temperature. Changes in the operating temperature caused by changes in environmental temperature will shift the spectrum on the horizontal axis. Peak shifts of tens of channels or more are commonly observed. Such shifts can be prevented by using spectrum stabilizers.

Because of the poor resolution of NaI-based detectors, they are not suitable for the identification of complicated mixtures of gamma ray-producing materials. Scenarios requiring such analyses require detectors with higher resolution.

Semiconductor-based detectors

Semiconductor detectors, also called solid-state detectors, are fundamentally different from scintillation detectors: They rely on detection of the charge carriers (electrons and holes) generated in semiconductors by energy deposited by gamma ray photons.

In semiconductor detectors, an electric field is applied to the detector volume. An electron in the semiconductor is fixed in its valence band in the crystal until a gamma ray interaction provides the electron enough energy to move to the conduction band. Electrons in the conduction band can respond to the electric field in the detector, and therefore move to the positive contact that is creating the electrical field. The gap created by the moving electron is called a "hole", and is filled by an adjacent electron. This shuffling of holes effectively moves a positive charge to the negative contact. The arrival of the electron at the positive contact and the hole at the negative contact produces the electrical signal that is sent to the preamplifier, the MCA, and on through the system for analysis. The movement of electrons and holes in a solid-state detector is very similar to the movement of ions within the sensitive volume of gas-filled detectors such as ionization chambers.

Common semiconductor-based detectors include germanium, cadmium telluride, and cadmium zinc telluride.

Germanium detectors provide significantly improved energy resolution in comparison to sodium iodide detectors, as explained in the preceding discussion of resolution. Germanium detectors produce the highest resolution commonly available today. However, a disadvantage is the requirement of cryogenic temperatures for the operation of germanium detectors, typically by cooling with liquid nitrogen.

Backscatter peak
In a real detector setup, some photons can and will undergo one or potentially more Compton scattering processes (e.g. in the housing material of the radioactive source, in shielding material or material otherwise surrounding the experiment) before entering the detector material. This leads to a peak structure that can be seen in the above shown energy spectrum of 137Caesium (Figure 1, the first peak left of the Compton edge), the so-called backscatter peak. The detailed shape of backscatter peak structure is influenced by many factors, such as the geometry of the experiment (source geometry, relative position of source, shielding and detector) or the type of the surrounding material (giving rise to different ratios of the cross sections of Photo- and Compton-effect).

The basic principle, however, is as follows:
 * Gamma-ray sources emit photons isotropically
 * Some photons will undergo a Compton scattering process in e.g. the shielding material or the housing of the source with a scattering angle close to 180° and some of these photons will subsequently be detected by the detector.
 * The result is a peak structure with approximately the energy of the incident photon minus the energy of the Compton edge.

The backscatter peak usually appears wide and occurs at lower than 250 keV.

Single escape and double escape peaks
For incident photon energies E larger than two times the rest mass of the electron (1.022 MeV), pair production can occur. The resulting positron annihilates with one of the surrounding electrons, typically producing two photons with 511 keV. In a real detector (i.e. a detector of finite size) it is possible that after the annihilation:

 * Both photons deposit their energy in the detector. This results in a peak with E, identical to the energy of the incident photon.
 * One of the two photons escapes the detector and only one of the photons deposits its energy in the detector, resulting in a peak with E − 511 keV, the single escape peak.
 * Both photons escape the detector, resulting in a peak with E − 2 × 511 keV, the double escape peak.

The above Am-Be-source spectrum shows an example of single and double escape peak in a real measurement.

Calibration and background radiation
If a gamma spectrometer is used for identifying samples of unknown composition, its energy scale must be calibrated first. Calibration is performed by using the peaks of a known source, such as caesium-137 or cobalt-60. Because the channel number is proportional to energy, the channel scale can then be converted to an energy scale. If the size of the detector crystal is known, one can also perform an intensity calibration, so that not only the energies but also the intensities of an unknown source—or the amount of a certain isotope in the source—can be determined.

Because some radioactivity is present everywhere (i.e., background radiation), the spectrum should be analyzed when no source is present. The background radiation must then be subtracted from the actual measurement. Lead absorbers can be placed around the measurement apparatus to reduce background radiation.

title: Gamma spectroscopy


text:
Talk:Intraocular pressure

Comments
Does the "case history" section need editing? Bit of an odd paragraph about Dave's blog on IOP? 69.231.241.75 05:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

If raised IOP is not the only determinant of glaucoma, what are the other factors? JFW | T@lk  16:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Glaucoma is now generally defined as a progressive optic neuropathy characterized by damage to the optic nerve and visual field loss. This definition is more widely accepted given that someone can have have elevated IOPs without neuropathy or neuropathy without elevated IOPs.   --AED 17:14, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So what is the neuropathy due to, if not pathologically raised IOP? And why can raised IOP without neuropathy not be termed "glaucoma"? JFW | T@lk  10:03, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * 1) We don't know what causes glaucomatous neuropathy. 2)Raised IOP without neuropathy is not termed "glaucoma" a) because "glaucoma" implies damage to the OHN, b) because an elevated IOP without ONH damage is simply an elevated IOP, and c) because an elevated IOP (usually > 21mmgHg) is termed "ocular hypertension". --AED 04:07, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've observed on some occasions that staring directly into certain light sources (specifically, a fluorescent tube at close range) can cause what feels like a surge in pressure within the eyes, most unpleasant. Is there anything to support that some forms of eye stimulation can (briefly) affect intraocular pressure? --Iskunk 08:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I think tha values of intraocular pressure of this page should be really revised!!! I am not ophtalmologist.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eytanraz (talk • contribs) 14:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Expert tag due to hidden vandalism
Surreptitious vandalism, expert checking needed. --Janke | Talk 01:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Summarizing numerical values
"The average value of intraocular pressure is 15.5 mmHg with fluctuations of about 2.75 mmHg."

 * What means fluctuations?
 * Is it the standard deviation?
 * all scientific articles should use reasonable statistics summaries when presenting data: either mean and standard deviation, or median and (min-max), or the 95% confidence interval, and it should be clearly stated what measures are used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.35.222.24 (talk) 09:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Intraocular pressure


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Borrowdale Volcanic Group

The Borrowdale Volcanic Group is a group of igneous rock formations named after the Borrowdale area of the Lake District, in England. They are Caradocian (late Ordovician) in age (roughly 450 million years old). It is thought that they represent the remains of a volcanic island arc, approximately similar to the island arcs of the west Pacific today. This developed as oceanic crust to the (present) north-west and was forced by crustal movement under a continental land-mass to the present south-east. Such forcing under, as two plates meet, is termed subduction. This land-mass has been named Avalonia by geologists. It is now incorporated into England and Wales and a sliver of North America.

Geology
At that time the rocks that now comprise most of Scotland (and part of the northern Irish landmass) were not attached to Avalonia. They were separated by an ocean, called the Iapetus Ocean by geologists. The line of joining, or suture, is approximately under the Solway Firth and Cheviot Hills. In the Lake District, the junction between the early Ordovician series, Skiddaw Slate, and the Borrowdale Volcanic that was forced under it, can be seen on the slopes of Fleetwith Pike.

In the English Lake District, the Borrowdale Volcanic Group is composed of lavas (mainly andesites), tuffs and agglomerates, along with some major igneous intrusions. These rocks of the Borrowdale Volcanic Group give rise to dramatic scenery. The mountainous nature of the area, its high rainfall and the relative impermeability of the rock give rise to a high risk of storm flooding as demonstrated by the 2009 flooding of Cockermouth.

Volcanic activity lasted in the region until, at earliest, the Burrellian period (± 455 MYA).

Boundaries
The upper boundary of the group is an unconformity with the overlying Windermere Supergroup. The lower boundary is an unconformity with the underlying Skiddaw Group.

Significance
The outcrop of this sequence on Crinkle Crags (and other surrounding peaks in the Lake District), was chosen as one of the top 100 geosites in the United Kingdom by the Geological Society of London.

title: Borrowdale Volcanic Group


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Talk:Zanchi (cymbals)

[Untitled]
I welcome any further information....

-original author

could be cleaned up? see other articals as i guide. also could do with being ,more formal.

Please sign your posts on talk pages, everybody. I'd never heard of these cymbals before, but there are other mentions of them on the WWW, on cymbalholics forums for example. Andrewa 03:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

a fair amount of discussion on cymbalholics, perhaps some images as well may still remain as I had uploaded some when I was still a member there, before that site was very unfortunately revised.

Hugo Pinksterboer
Pinksterboer is the author of The Cymbal Book, 1992 (see: http://catalog.loc.gov/). The "Pinkstoerber" spelling has been copied in all the other versions of the text of this article.Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 04:44, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Zanchi (cymbals)


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Palace of the Popes

Palace of the Popes may refer to:

 * Apostolic Palace, Vatican City State – the pope's residence since the return from Avignon in 1377
 * Domus Sanctae Marthae, Vatican City – also known as Saint Martha's House, the Vatican hotel where Pope Francis resides
 * Lateran Palace, Rome, Italy – used from the 4th century until 1309
 * Palais des Papes, Avignon, France – used from 1309 to 1377
 * Palazzo dei Papi, Orvieto, Italy – used from 1262 to 1297
 * Palace of the Popes in Viterbo, Italy – used from 1257 to 1281
 * Palace of the Popes in Anagni, Italy – used from 1227 to 1241, 1296 to 1303
 * Papal Palace of Castel Gandolfo, Castel Gandolfo, Lazio, Italy – the pope's summer residence prior to 2016, temporary residence of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI
 * Quirinal Palace, Rome, Italy – used from 1589 to 1870

title: Palace of the Popes


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A Son Unique

A Son Unique is the third and final studio album by Ol' Dirty Bastard. It was supposed to be released after ODB's death in 2004 but was eventually shelved. It was meant to be distributed by label owner Damon Dash. However, ODB was posthumously dropped from Roc-A-Fella Records, and the album has never been released. Despite this, it has been available as a digital download and promo CDs had been circulating on the resale market.

Background
On the day of its planned release, A Son Unique was made available on iTunes. The release was eventually cancelled by ODB's label, Roc-A-Fella. The album was finally going to be released in November 2009 to commemorate the fifth anniversary of ODB's death, but eventually got delayed again. As of 2020, A Son Unique has never been physically released, but available on digital music distribution services.

Before releasing A Son Unique, ODB changed his stage name from Ol' Dirty Bastard to Dirt McGirt. The working title for the album was Dirt McGirt.

title: A Son Unique


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Talk:A Son Unique

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title: Talk:A Son Unique