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Talk:Strategic nomination

Confusion about a specific paragraph
About the profile * 40 voters preferring candidate A to B to C * 35 voters preferring candidate B to C to A * 25 voters preferring candidate C to A to B there is the phrase: "With the above preferences and whatever candidate an election method chooses as a winner, another candidate can always secure a majority of votes against that winner by removing the third candidate."

And my calculation shows that if A is the winner chosen by an election method then B cannot secure a majority of votes against A by removing C from the election, because that would create the profile * 40 voters preferring candidate A to B * 35 voters preferring candidate B to A * 25 voters preferring candidate A to B Thus even more voters in favour of A.

I guess this is either my confusion or the confusion of the paragraph's author. Please comment. --Konrad (talk) 14:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

 * You're correct that B cannot gain a majority, but C can (C would have a 60:40 majority in a direct runoff). By "another candidate", the phrase you quoted doesn't mean either candidate can gain a majority, but rather that at least one can. 66.215.156.89 (talk) 04:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussion about ICC criterion in mathematical models and real life voting
I challenge the validity of the Independence of Clones criteria: I have not found any mathematical definition of a clone, nor have I found a way to objectively determine what a clone is and isn't.  I can say that clones are a special case of a correlated pair, but that still is not a precise definition. I would like to promote a discussion on this topic.--Fahrenheit451 18:25, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would like to remove all references to this independence of clones in different voting method articles if no one can define exactly what a clone is and prove their existence. It looks like a clever piece of fiction so far.--Fahrenheit451 20:55, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I edited this article on the independence of clones portion only. It was a real mess. Like editing an article about the tooth fairy that no one has ever seen, but a few like to discuss as if such a person does exit.--Fahrenheit451 23:06, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The independence of clones criterion is a well-established criterion. The definition given on the page may have been unclear to you, but it is not "defective". The page defines clones perfectly precisely:

A clone is an identical copy of something. Now Tideman wants us to believe that a clone is this definition? That's a bunch of crap.--Fahrenheit451 20:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * those candidates where every voter ranks them the same relative to every other candidate

Ridiculous! In an election with a small body of voters, that could easily be coincidence and with a large body of voters, show me where it has ever occured. --Fahrenheit451 20:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your "correlated pairs" are a straw man and have nothing to do with it. A set of candidates are clones if they are ranked adjacent or tied to each other on every ballot. A candidate is independent of clones if and only if changing the size of a set of clones can never change the outcome of the election. That's mathematically precise.

That's no straw man. I attempted to make some sort of sense of the this icc nonsense. That's nothing but a vague notion, and like the tooth fairy, there is no evidence for it at all. --Fahrenheit451 20:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fine, show me where that happens in the real world.--Fahrenheit451 20:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your complaint seems to be that clone candidates don't exist in real life. But you can't rigorously define real-life voting behavior, so clones are used as a model. I emphasize again: clones that are rigorous and well-defined, unlike "correlated pairs", and your complaint that they are not well-defined is based on a fallacy.

That's just a straw man. You can precisely define real life voting criteria and it is observable in the real world. This icc crap cannot even be demonstrated. Are thunderstorms the result of angels who are bowling? There's a model to explain phenomena. I don't buy this icc stuff. Political candidates strive to differentiate themselves from their opponents. Parties have platforms that differentiate them from other parties. So where are the effing clones? What a bunch of crap that is! You really believe Tideman's nonsense?--Fahrenheit451 20:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would appreciate if you would restore the links to ICC that you deleted, because I'd rather not have to hunt them down, and you were unjustified in deleting them.

RSpeer 05:52, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

I will not knowingly put false information on wikipedia. I will continue to remove it.--Fahrenheit451 20:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Rspeer, tell me. Can you have teaming and crowding without the candidates being "clones"? Can teaming and crowding exist as real world concepts seperate from the notion of "clones"?--Fahrenheit451 21:29, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Independence of clones is mathematically well-defined. You are correct in saying that perfect clone sets are unlikely to occur in public elections. I have left that statement in the article in my last edit, because it is true and worth knowing about. However, the criterion is still useful for analytical purposes. Also, methods failing clone independence are more likely to respond irregularly to the addition or subtraction of candidates who are close to being clones of other candidates. Independence of clones is a criterion that many students of voting theory find to be significant. Thus, I see no reason to delete it. If you find the criterion unimportant, that's fine, but there is no need to impose that judgement on all wikipedia readers new to the topic. Remember, Wikipedia works on the basis of consensus. If there is wide agreement that ICC is at least worth considering as a voting systems criterion (which there is), then it should be given a page here, and it should be listed among the criteria passed and failed by the various tally methods. If all wikipedia editors made a point of deleting criteria that they didn't find useful, there would be few to zero criteria left in the encyclopedia. Please don't be so contentious in your editing. In this instance, you seem to be editing before discussing, rather than the other way around. If you are having trouble understanding why people find merit in the ICC, I suggest that you discuss before editing. In addition to discussing on wikipedia, I invite you to discuss these issues on the electorama mailing list. Go ahead and make an anti-ICC argument there, and see what kind of replies you get. That should be more productive and less antagonistic than the current pattern of "edit wars" here on wikipedia.Hermitage 04:52, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Propose to remove npov tag
I put the npov tag here when F451 added comments about ICC being "flawed" and so on to the article content. That's not there anymore, and the article content seems to be fairly stable now (despite that F451 disagrees with it). Do we have consensus to remove the npov tag? RSpeer 13:47, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that F451's earlier edit was insufficiently neutral. I believe that the page as written, while it can still use some improving, is sufficiently neutral. Hence, I removed the tag. I created categories, which I believe make the article more clear. I'd like to hear dissenting opinions on that if there are any. It seemed confusing to straddle the defn of ICC around the three defns of vote splitting et al... I'd rather not tie those three so closely to ICC.

I wrote "The existence of a clone set in a public election is improbable as it only takes one voter to break up a clone set." Perhaps this accomodates some of F451's concerns. I might be open to adding another sentence here, e.g. "As a result of this fact, some argue that the ICC has a rather limited range of applications." Heck, I think that I'll add this, and if anyone disagrees, they can take it off.

At some point, I'd also like to explore the issue of the degree of ICC failure. For example, Borda and Smith//minimax both fail ICC, but I believe that Borda's ICC failure is much more severe. I'd like to find a way to quantify ICC failure, or at least to arrange it into various degrees. Perhaps a good topic for the EM list. Hermitage 00:05, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That would be a rather useless project considering no clone candidates have ever been identified. I think a far more worthwhile project is to prove that "clones" really do affect Smith and Borda. The ICC criteria remains nothing but Junk Science for candidates until someone can prove otherwise.--Fahrenheit451 18:30, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You can prove that clones affect Borda using paper and pencil. Throwing out ICC amounts to denying that strategic nomination could even occur. I would love to see a source that makes such a claim. KVenzke 15:36, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Paper and pencil works for a proposal that is a fixed creation. I would agree that proposals can be cloned. But candidates are not. There are no clone candidates. Such a notion is unreal and absurd. Strategic nomination can exist and has existed before Tideman's ever invented his "clone" idea.--Fahrenheit451 17:24, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * The definition of clones -- and, in fact, all the rest of voting theory -- doesn't care whether you're voting for people or referenda. Is this where the misunderstanding comes from? RSpeer 19:46, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Proposals and people are entirely different bodies of data. One cannot always deal with them in the same manner. Again, one cannot have human clone candidates, but one can have human candidates that correlate in tallies. That is a different matter and "clones" is a lousy choice for a description.--Fahrenheit451 21:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

By the way, Fahrenheit put this in the article earlier: No mathematical definition of clones has ever been asserted, so this criterion is not well-defined. Is this a lie, or a colossal misunderstanding? You can find a definition of ICC in, for instance, Markus Schulze, "A New Monotonic and Clone-Independent Single-Winner Election Method," Voting Matters issue 17, Oct 2003, which is available under Schulze method. KVenzke 15:45, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

The definition really pertains to correlated pairs and not "clones". Please show me a clone candidate in real life. They do not exist. Tideman misnamed a correlated pair as a clone. And that is shoddy scholarship. The term is a gross misnomer and should not be used. So, no, a mathematical definition of a clone has not been offered, but rather a misnamed correlated pair.--Fahrenheit451 17:24, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It sounds like you call a "correlated pair" what Tideman calls a pair of clones. (I'm pretty sure Tideman doesn't use the phrase "a clone" like you do, but only talks about sets of clones.) Since Tideman wrote the paper, we should use his terminology, not yours. RSpeer 19:46, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

You can use whatever you want, it is just a gross misnomer and a very deceptive one at that.--Fahrenheit451 21:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is not the job of Wikipedia to invent/find the right words for something. If it's called clone in literature, that's how we should call it in Wikipedia - even if the name is not perfect. --Konrad (talk) 14:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Strategic nomination


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User:Novaguy810

WE!!!!!!!!!!!!

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Novaguy810


text: Talk:Beggarware

title: Talk:Beggarware


text:
Get Up with It

Get Up with It is an album by American jazz musician Miles Davis. Released by Columbia Records on November 22, 1974, it collected previously unreleased material that Davis had recorded between 1970 and 1974, some of which dated from the sessions for his studio albums Jack Johnson (1971) and On the Corner (1972).

Recordings
"He Loved Him Madly" was Davis' tribute to Duke Ellington, who used to tell his audiences, "I love you madly."

"Honky Tonk" was recorded in 1970 with musicians such as John McLaughlin and Herbie Hancock who had played on In a Silent Way and Bitches Brew. "Red China Blues" had been recorded in 1972, prior to On the Corner, while "Rated X" and "Billy Preston" were recorded later that year with the band heard on In Concert. The remaining tracks dated from 1973 and 1974 sessions with his then-current band, including guitarist Pete Cosey.

In the 2004 edition of the Rolling Stone Album Guide, J. D. Considine described the album's musical style as "worldbeat fusion".

Critical reception
Reviewing Get Up With It for Rolling Stone in 1975, Stephen Davis applauded Davis' adventurousness and the direction of his band, a "who's who of Seventies jazz-rock". Robert Christgau gave the album muted praise in The Village Voice, calling it "over two hours of what sometimes sounds like bullshit: it's not exactly music to fill the mind. Just the room." In the 1981 edition of Christgau's Record Guide: Rock Albums of the Seventies, he praised the side-long pieces "He Loved Him Madly" ("a tribute to Duke Ellington as elegant African internationalist") and "Calypso Frelimo" ("a Caribbean dance broken into sections that seem to follow with preordained emotional logic") while offering a mixed assessment of the other material.

For the album's 2000 reissue, Alternative Press published a review calling it "essential ... the overlooked classic of psychedelic soul and outlandish improv ... representing the high water mark of [Davis'] experiments in the fusion of rock, funk, electronica and jazz". Stylus Magazine's Chris Smith called it "more of an anything-goes hodgepodge than it is a sprawling masterwork."

In a highly positive retrospective review, Andy Beta of Pitchfork described Get Up with It as a "black funk dreamscape", observing that it "careens between extremes, as Miles presages everything still to come: ambient, no wave, world beat, jungle, new jack swing, post-rock, even hinting at the future sound of R&B and chart-topping pop". He particularly praised Davis' adoption of the electric organ: "Rather than run the voodoo down, now Miles could conjure it all by himself".

Track listing
All compositions by Miles Davis.

"He Loved Him Madly"
Recorded Columbia Studio E, New York City June 19 or 20, 1974

 * Miles Davis — electric trumpet with wah-wah pedal, organ
 * Dave Liebman — alto flute
 * Reggie Lucas — electric guitar
 * Dominique Gaumont — electric guitar
 * Michael Henderson — bass guitar
 * Al Foster — drums
 * James Mtume — percussion

"Maiysha"
Recorded Columbia Studio E, New York City October 7, 1974

 * Miles Davis — electric trumpet with wah-wah pedal, organ
 * Sonny Fortune — flute
 * Pete Cosey — electric guitar
 * Reggie Lucas — electric guitar
 * Dominique Gaumont — electric guitar
 * Michael Henderson — bass guitar
 * Al Foster — drums
 * James Mtume — percussion

"Honky Tonk"
Recorded Columbia Studio E, New York City May 19, 1970

 * Miles Davis — trumpet
 * Steve Grossman — soprano saxophone
 * John McLaughlin — electric guitar
 * Keith Jarrett — electric piano
 * Herbie Hancock — clavinet
 * Michael Henderson — bass guitar
 * Billy Cobham — drums
 * Airto Moreira — percussion

"Rated X"
Recorded Columbia Studio E, New York City September 6, 1972

 * Miles Davis — organ
 * Cedric Lawson — electric piano
 * Reggie Lucas — electric guitar
 * Khalil Balakrishna — electric sitar
 * Michael Henderson — bass guitar
 * Al Foster — drums
 * James Mtume — percussion
 * Badal Roy — tabla

"Calypso Frelimo"
Recorded Columbia Studio E, New York City September 17, 1973

 * Miles Davis — electric trumpet with wah-wah pedal, electric piano, organ
 * Dave Liebman — flute
 * John Stubblefield — soprano saxophone
 * Pete Cosey — electric guitar
 * Reggie Lucas — electric guitar
 * Michael Henderson — bass guitar
 * Al Foster — drums
 * James Mtume — percussion

"Red China Blues"
Recorded Columbia Studio E, New York City March 9, 1972

 * Miles Davis — electric trumpet with wah-wah pedal
 * Lester Chambers — harmonica
 * Cornell Dupree — electric guitar
 * Michael Henderson — bass guitar
 * Al Foster — drums
 * Bernard Purdie — drums
 * James Mtume — percussion
 * Wade Marcus — brass arrangement
 * Billy Jackson — rhythm arrangement

"Mtume"
Recorded Columbia Studio E, New York City October 7, 1974

 * Miles Davis — electric trumpet with wah-wah pedal, organ
 * Pete Cosey — electric guitar
 * Reggie Lucas — electric guitar
 * Dominique Gaumont — electric guitar
 * Michael Henderson — bass guitar
 * Al Foster — drums
 * James Mtume — percussion
 * Sonny Fortune — flute

"Billy Preston"
Recorded Columbia Studio E, New York City December 8, 1972

 * Miles Davis — electric trumpet with wah-wah pedal
 * Carlos Garnett — soprano saxophone
 * Cedric Lawson — Fender Rhodes electric piano
 * Reggie Lucas — electric guitar
 * Khalil Balakrishna — electric sitar
 * Michael Henderson — bass guitar
 * Al Foster — drums
 * James Mtume — percussion
 * Badal Roy — tabla

title: Get Up with It


text:
Category:Aston Villa F.C. players

This is a category for Aston Villa F.C. players past and present.

title: Category:Aston Villa F.C. players


text:
Milkman (Phranc album)

Milkman is an album by the folk singer-songwriter Phranc, released in 1998. It was her first album in seven years; she had spent several years putting on her Neil Diamond tribute act, Hot August Phranc.

The album was nominated for a GLAAD Media Award, in the "Outstanding Music - Album" category.

Production
"Gary" is a song about Phranc's brother, who was murdered in 1991. "Ozzie and Harriet" tells of a one-on-one faltering relationship. "Tzena, Tzena" is sung in Yiddish.

The album title references Phranc's fondness for regularly wearing a milkman's uniform.

Critical reception
The Los Angeles Times wrote that "with its minimalist, sincere folk-pop tunes, Phranc’s first album in seven years integrates the humor and pain in her recent life."

Track listing
All tracks composed by Phranc; except where indicated
 * 1) "Twirly" – 1:48
 * 2) "The Handsome Cabin Boy" (Traditional) – 3:04
 * 3) "Ozzie and Harriet" – 3:37
 * 4) "Yer the One" – 1:42
 * 5) "They Lied" – 2:26
 * 6) "Where Were You?" – 4:28
 * 7) "Gary" – 2:31
 * 8) "Cuffs" – 3:48
 * 9) "Lullaby" – 1:59
 * 10) "Tzena, Tzena" (Traditional) – 1:28

Personnel

 * Phranc - Producer, vocals, arranger, guitar
 * Warren Bruleigh - Producer
 * Anna Waronker - Backing vocals
 * Phil Parlapiano - Accordion
 * Steve McDonald - Bass guitar
 * Tal Bergman - Drums
 * Jimmy Sloan - Engineer
 * Jeff Skelton - Assistant engineer
 * Bill Inglot - Mastering
 * Dave Schultz - Mastering
 * Howie Idelson - Design
 * Rocky Schenck - Photography

title: Milkman (Phranc album)


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Transtheism

Transtheism refers to a system of thought or religious philosophy that is neither theistic nor atheistic, but is beyond them. The word was coined by either theologian Paul Tillich or Indologist Heinrich Zimmer.

Zimmer applies the term to Jainism, which is theistic in the limited sense that gods exist but are irrelevant as they are transcended by moksha (that is, a system that is not non-theistic, but in which the gods are not the highest spiritual instance). Zimmer (1953, p. 182) uses the term to describe the position of the Tirthankaras having passed "beyond the godly governors of the natural order."

The term has more recently also been applied to Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, and the Bhakti movement.

Transpolytheism and transtheism
Main concepts of transtheism are transpolytheism and transtheism.

Nathan Katz in Buddhist and Western Philosophy (1981, p. 446) points out that the term "transpolytheistic" would be more accurate, since it entails that the polytheistic gods are not denied nor rejected even after the development of a notion of the Absolute that transcends them, but criticizes the classification as characterizing the mainstream by the periphery: "like categorizing Roman Catholicism as a good example of non-Nestorianism." For example, in Buddhism, there are multiple deities, but its main focus is not on them. Scholar Peter Harvey calls this "trans-polytheistic." The term is indeed informed by the fact that the corresponding development in the West, the development of monotheism, did not attempt to "transcend" polytheism but to abolish it, while in the mainstream of the Indian religions, the notion of "gods" (deva) was never elevated to the status of "God" or Ishvara, or the impersonal Absolute Brahman, but adopted roles comparable to Western angels. "Transtheism," according to the criticism of Katz, is then an artifact of comparative religion.

Paul Tillich uses transtheistic in The Courage to Be (1952), as an aspect of Stoicism. Tillich stated that Stoicism and Neo-Stoicism "are the way in which some of the noblest figures in later antiquity and their followers in modern times have answered the problem of existence and conquered the anxieties of fate and death. Stoicism in this sense is a basic religious attitude, whether it appears in theistic, atheistic, or transtheistic forms."

Like Zimmer, Tillich is trying to express a religious notion that is neither theistic nor atheistic. However, the theism that is being transcended in Stoicism according to Tillich is not polytheism as in Jainism, but monotheism, pursuing an ideal of human courage that has emancipated itself from God.

The courage to take meaninglessness into itself presupposes a relation to the ground of being which we have called 'absolute faith.' It is without a special content, yet it is not without content. The content of absolute faith is the 'god above God.' Absolute faith and its consequence, the courage that takes the radical doubt, the doubt about God, into itself, transcends the theistic idea of God.

Martin Buber criticized Tillich's "transtheistic position" as a reduction of God to the impersonal, "necessary being" of Thomas Aquinas.

Buddhism as transtheistic
Following the term coined by Tillich and Zimmer, Buddhism, namely Theravada Buddhism, can be regarded as a transpolytheistic religion. This can be evident by the transcendence of the state of Nibbana (Nirvana) that surpasses all the realms of existence, including the planes of devas and brahmas who are considered gods in Buddhist cosmology. The historical Buddha made it clear that the path to enlightenment does not depend on a god or gods. Although there is acknowledgment of a multitude of gods in the oldest Buddhist scriptures, there is also reference to Mahabrahma, who considered himself to be the all-powerful all-creator god, only to be critiqued by the Buddha as having wrongly perceived his plane of existence as the highest.

Nevertheless, these deities remain an inseparable aspect of the Buddhist worldview. The Buddha recommended meditation on the virtues of the devas as one of several means of cultivating good mental qualities, as it was mentioned in the Mahanama Sutta. In the Paṭhamamahānāma Sutta (AN 11.11) and the Samgyutta Agama (T. ii 237c9), the Buddha recommends that a disciple recollect each category of deity and their qualities of faith (saddha), ethics (sīla), learning (suta), renunciation (cāga), and wisdom (pañña). This fivefold enumeration of virtues is known in Chinese Buddhism as the "five virtues of a householder" (在家五法 or listed 信戒施聞慧). It is notable that the Chinese text also lists six virtues (六法), drawing a distinction between giving (dāna; 施) and renunciation (tyāga; 捨).

The Pure Abodes are also a significant aspect of Buddhist soteriology because the deities born there are anāgāmins. As with the function of the pure lands in Mahayana Buddhism, this explicitly presents certain deities with the ability to access nirvana, which confirms that their status is an indication of advancement on the path of liberation.

title: Transtheism


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Talk:Comparison of top chess players throughout history

Article content
Much of this article (at least the stuff not in the "statistical methods" section, which is new) has been moved from World Chess Championship (see that article's talk page for my thoughts on why this material is better in its own article). I have, however, deleted the below section:

 * Hence, it is extremely unclear which single player truly is "the best", but nearly all lists of the best players include at least the following ten (in chronological order):

 * Paul Morphy
 * Wilhelm Steinitz
 * Emanuel Lasker
 * José Raúl Capablanca
 * Alexander Alekhine
 * Mikhail Botvinnik
 * Mikhail Tal
 * Bobby Fischer
 * Anatoly Karpov
 * Garry Kasparov

The list is completely subjective, and since we now have other lists which, while not really any more objective are at least attributed to particular sources, this one is probably unnecessary.

A note on Chessmetrics: it seems Sonas has recently overhauled the website, and a lot of the ratings seem to have changed (formerly, Capablanca had the highest 5-year peak average). The quote I've put in the article from him about it being impossible to compare ratings of players from different eras is from the old version of the website, but the ratings I've quoted are from the new version. I know this isn't ideal--it's a quick fix while I try to find a similar quote on the new site (if it turns out there isn't one... well, I'm not sure what the best thing to do will be then). --Camembert 18:39, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Another computer analysis comparison
I think this quite detailed and thorough should also be included in the article. http://web.zone.ee/chessanalysis/summary450.pdf

The most accurate player seems to have been Kramnik, followed by Karpov and Fischer

World Champions by world title reigns Table Ambiguous Headers
I'm confused by this table. It states Carlsen hasn't won any FIDE titles, but this isn't true. It's not clear what a classical title is. The linked article doesn't use the word "classical" in it, but mentions PCA. Something indicating that the first few columns are counts of titles, and that the last column is reign in years would help with clarity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.175.168 (talk) 09:47, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Larry Kaufman (2023) section
I think that section is somewhat overblown. It is ok to report the first method of the three, but the other two feels more like "let me find a way to assign points so that the players I like will come on top". I think it is fine and necessary to point to the original article but I would trim the report of method 2 and method 3, removing those. Otherwise it is like this wiki article gives strength to the article (I know it shouldn't be the case, but surely it gives lots of visibility) and I think it is not a good thing. 89.14.26.201 (talk) 20:57, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I disagree. His three methods are attempts to answer different questions – "who was the best objectively", "who was the best comparing against their time", and "who had the most talent, i.e. who would perform best if they were in their prime today and had today's resources". It seems helpful to consider all three, since they are often conflated in discussions along these lines. Double sharp (talk) 18:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)


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Nevada State Route 157

State Route 157 (SR 157), also known as Kyle Canyon Road, is a U.S. state highway in Clark County, Nevada. The highway connects the Las Vegas area to the recreational areas of Mount Charleston in the Spring Mountains.

Located in the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, a portion of SR 157 has been designated a Nevada Scenic Byway. The route was originally State Route 39 and has origins dating back to the 1930s.

Route description
The highway begins at a dead end near Mount Charleston before descending downwards to the village of Mount Charleston. SR 157 then heads east, rapidly losing elevation. Within a span of 20 mi, an elevation of 3000 ft is lost with a noticeable difference: temperatures increase, trees and shrubs become less green and numerous, and lasting snow cover during winter months is no longer present. Part of the route is designated as a Nevada Scenic Byway. SR 157 then meets Interstate 11 (I-11)/U.S. Route 95 (US 95) at a diverging diamond interchange before ending at Sky Pointe Drive in northwest Las Vegas.

History
Kyle Canyon Road has existed since at least 1933, having been established as a county road connecting Charleston Peak (in what was then Dixie National Forest) to State Route 5 (now US 95) at Tule to the east. By 1935, the entire 21 mi of the highway had been paved and designated as State Route 39 by the state.

SR 39 appears to have remained unchanged for several years after being included in the state highway system. Its first major change occurred on July 1, 1976, when the route was renumbered to State Route 157 in the mass renumbering of Nevada's state highways. This change was first reflected on official state maps in 1978.

In July 1998, the Nevada Department of Transportation designated SR 157 as a Nevada Scenic Byway. The scenic route encompasses the westernmost 13 mi of the highway within the national forest area.

On June 20, 2019, NDOT celebrated the completion of the diverging diamond interchange at the SR 157 junction with US 95, which later opened on June 24, 2019. The interchange was a component of a $78 million project which improved a 6 mi stretch of US 95 in northwest Las Vegas between Ann Road and SR 157, and replaced what was previously an at-grade intersection.

title: Nevada State Route 157


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User talk:Nichalp/Archive 5

RE: Surviving?
Thanks for your kind words. Yes, I'm supposed to keep myself more busy these days for survival. Hope, you're doing well. Have any idea to go to those sweet college campus for another degree? With lots & lots of wishes --Rrjanbiah 14:19, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Tax lawyer
Hi - I did a long reply last night but my browser crashed before I could save it, and I lost heart. But I'll have another go...

I am a solicitor, and my work breaks down into two main areas - advisory (advising clients on applicable tax laws: whether there is a charge to tax or a risk of a charge to tax, how much, and what can be done about it) and transactional (structuring transactions to achieve the best tax result for the client, and protecting the client against tax risks - essentially drafting documents that allocate tax risks between the parties). Most of my work is for corporate clients, rather than individuals, and I don't do (at least, haven't done) representational work (that is, representing clients in disputes with the tax authorities or before tax tribunals or the courts).

My work is pretty varied - I cover the full range of UK taxes, direct taxes like income tax, national insurance contributions, corporation tax, capital gains tax and stamp duty and indirect taxes like VAT, although I don't deal with the more esoteric taxes very often - things like customs duty, excise duty, petroleum revenue tax, landfill tax, climate change levy, etc.

Hope that helps. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:46, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Tan
I did not move to the Arunachal Pradesh article, but move it to Demographics of Arunachal Pradesh instead, since I find it more relavant to place there instead, along with statistics and the religion. However, I will do some cleanup in a few days' time, since I am exhausted after doing extensive edits to the Nakhi article. However, I would welcome you to clean up the Demographics of Arunachal Pradesh if you wish to do so.

Mr Tan 14:13, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Vote on Calcutta move
Nichalp, request you to vote on the Move of Calcutta to Koltata. Please express your views. Arunram 18:33, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Deleted FAC vote
I'm sorry! It was a complete accident. I'll be more careful next time. Neutralitytalk 21:50, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Tamil-speaking regions map
Got your reason for spraying colour on the see. Sorry for the late reply. I'll add this map there. By the way I think the following may be useful to you (if you haven't seen them already):

 * Image:BlankMap-World.png
 * Blank maps

-- Sundar 04:42, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure if you are looking for maps on language usage, but here is one:
 * Perry-Castañeda Library Map Collection at the University of Texas libraries.
 * The material may be (and possibly is) copyright protected. You may need to use the Blank maps in connection with this. Hope this helps out to some extent. -- Urnonav 05:55, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Map of India II
Hi, Nichalp I've posted the map here. It needs work and I have lots of time, so suggest what you can on the talk page (of the map). I'll leave a message on Ran's page too. --Ankur 19:22, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cool map the chicken neck one - I like the contrast. --Ankur 19:25, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hello
Honestly, neither do I know how to get it in either, since I copied and paste the content from the Chinese wikipedia version of the Sikkim article. However, you may visit the links at the Tibetan script. I also hoipe that you could teach me how to install the font. Thanks.

Mr Tan 14:21, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, but just you go and see the title format of the Tibet Autonomous Region. I am aware and do not deny that this is an English title, but putting up the other languages of the country's or state's name is not wrong.

I had a Tibetan-Dazongkha dictionary.

1. The official name of Sikkim was Vbras Ljong. 2. Dzongkha and Tibetan are fairly similar, and these words stated above are exactly the same as Tibetan.

Mr Tan 23:46, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Mumbai
Done! Check &. (You might want to add the spelling of Mumbai in Marathi I think to the main English article).
 * Hi Nichalp, I've added the zh: link to Mumbai. Unfortunately the article doesn't exist in zh: yet... -- ran (talk) 20:44, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

Image questions
Hello Nichalp. You asked some good questions.

I hope this helps! If you have any more questions, just let me know. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 23:26, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Is there a licence that I can release my images such that it works like the GFDL, ie. anyone is free to edit it, improve it and use it like the licence for all free purposes BUT the image must be credited to me as the photographer?
 * Actually, the GFDL already requires that you must be credited if anyone reuses your work. So you're safe there.
 * 1) I want to move all images on the Sikkim page to commons. How do I do this? (I would prefer not to upload all over again)
 * Currently, the only way is to upload them individually. But there are lots of people who would like to do this, and the developers are working on a way to do this with the press of a button. I have no idea when this will be ready, though. You live in Sikkim? I hear it's a very beautiful place.
 * I've just uploaded a couple to commons (the statue of the guru and the stupa) and listed the en.wikipedia versions on WP:IFD  — Zeimusu | Talk 07:56, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) How do I upload to commons?
 * Just go to http://commons.wikimedia.org/, and create an account (if you haven't already). Then you'll see an "upload file" link, just like you see here, and it works the same way.
 * 1) I have touched up an image image:Bombay-market.jpg which is in commons, but when I uploaded the image, it did not upload to the commons but to the english wikipedia. How do I rectify this for future purposes?
 * I think you'll have to upload it to the commons, as described above, and then delete the copy of the image that exists here on Wikipedia. To delete images here, list them on IFD.

Salt Satyagraha
Hello, Nichalp. Good call on adding the Salt March to yesterday's 'Selected Anniversaries'. I missed that one. Thank you. Should the re-enactment of this historic event on its 75th anniversary be posted on Template:In the news ? I've posted a suggestion on In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates. This gotta be better than featuring Cyclone Ingrid day in day out .... -- PFHLai 09:30, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)

 * Hello. I did not load the MainPage after your edit yesterday, so I cannot tell if the template was really updated and displayed properly. It should be fine.  I don't known what happened, but I suspect a local cache problem -- I have a similar problem with one of the PCs at school, where I sometimes have to log in and out on the same page to get a page properly refreshed.  No clue why..... Having six events for one day is probably too much (so I have removed one from the template to keep things at five for next year.), but this shouldn't have affected how the template appears on MainPage.  As far as I know, you've done all you need to do to revise the template. .... -- PFHLai 20:55, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)

Question
An honest question: I realised that you have just removed the titles on the Sikkim page. Can you please provide an explanation to this act?

Honestly, I got those tags from the Chinese wikipedia. You may follow up at here:

Thanks. Mr Tan 16 Dec 2005, 00:37 (UTC)

Selected Anniversaries
Hello, Nichalp. Thank you for the suggestions. The assassination of Indira Gandhi is already posted -- I remember posting it myself. I'll do the rest when the time comes. Besides my talk page, you may want to also post your suggestions on the talk page for each day's template. This way, other Wikipedians can see them, too. I may kick the bucket tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow ... etc., you know. :-) [Yes, I'm a pessimist...] -- PFHLai 01:22, 2005 Mar 16 (UTC)

Holi
Hello. I saw your edit at Selected anniversaries/March 26, and surfed to read Holi. I'm rather confused. Please help. Is March 26 the first or second day of Holi ? There is no mention under "Holidays and observances" on March 26. http://www.interfaithcalendar.org/2005.htm & http://indiafestivals.tblog.com/ both have March 25 as the date of Holi in 2005. Should we put Holi on March 25, and Rangapanchami on March 26 instead ? I do not know the Hindu holidays. Please educate me. And may I suggest a list of Gregorian dates for this and upcoming years added to the Holi page, please ? (Please see Eid ul-Adha for an example.) I think such a list would be quite useful, more useful than the external links there right now. Thanks. -- PFHLai 22:18, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)
 * Oh, no, Nichalp, it wasn't you who confused me, but the German and Dutch Wikipedians ! Anyway, I have revised the MainPage as you suggested. Thank you very much for the clarification. You have been a great help.  Have a happy Holi. :-) -- PFHLai 08:33, 2005 Mar 26 (UTC)

Copyright queries
Hello Nichalp! I have some answers. I hope this helps! – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 01:20, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) I'm unsure what the creative commons licence versions does. Could you brief me in on what exactly v1 and so on does?
 * 2) * Well, first off, there are lots of creative commons licenses. There's cc-by, cc-by-sa, cc-nc, etc. You probably knew this. But the version number isn't all that important. Version 2.0 of the licenses are better written than the 1.0 versions, but they mostly just use most standard and robust legalese to say the same thing. I'm not really sure what the substantive differences are, but I'm sure they're pretty minor. Anyway, the version doesn't matter at all when deciding what we can use on Wikipedia.
 * 3)  is licenced under a CC licence. Does this mean that I am free to upload the images to wikipedia without contacting the owner? I will credit him of course and keep the licence.
 * 4) * Yes you can! (That web-site is a great find, by the way.) The Creative Commons licenses are designed so that other people can reuse the images without having to get the owners' permissions. (It's nice to e-mail them and let them know, but it's not required.)
 * 5) *That particular site is licensed under the cc-by-sa license, which is important. We can use any images that are released under the cc-by, cc-by-sa, or cc-pd. We can't use any that are under a non-commercial (nc) or no-derivatives (nd) license.
 * 6) Assuming I'm uploading under the CC, can I upload CC tagged images to wikipedia commons, or only GFDL and PD are allowed?
 * 7) * CC licenses are allowed on the Commons, so long as they're cc-by or cc-by-sa.

 * The new Yahoo! Search for CC content might help get some content. -- 13:37, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Mysore

 * 1) I would really be interested in making Mysore a featured article, but I am busy for the next month or so. That said, I hope to get on this project as soon as possible.--IMpbt 19:18, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Plz Restore Jharkhand
hello

while uploading map of districts of Jharkhand, I did something foolish.

plz restore the Jharkahnd page as it was just before the uploading of districxts of jharkahnd.

Kindly also upload the map of districts of jharkhand.

Thanks.

sinceryly urs

 * Fixed. 13:00, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Jharkhand restored somehow
hello thanks - i could somehow restore jharkhand. seek ur assitance in better formatting. I shall continue to work on this page ... ok bye anfd thanks

 * Hi. It was no magic. I restored it. Click on any article's history and click on a particular version, edit and save to restore to that version. -- 13:35, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Lemur
Do you know what species your pic is of? - UtherSRG 21:04, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you.
Whao ! Nichalp, a barnstar for me ?!?!?! Thank you ! What a pleasant surprise ! :-) Thank you very much ! :-D  -- PFHLai 00:52, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)

Improving Jharkhand - Bihar - Chhattisgarh
Thanks for ur suggestions. Any message gives a feeling that I am not alone. Plz also tell me how to "tag" the image. I went through the Sikkim and Goa. I will slowly try to improve Bihar, Chhattisgarh and Jharkhand on similar lines. Though I do not have pictures. May be someone else will surely step in, with pictures as well as with additional materials. Plz continue to message ur suggestions. I have one more request - of course, if u can spare the time, though it is not urgent: I would request you to kindly reaarange districts of Jharkhand as they appear on Chhattisgarh and plz also tag the map of Jharkhand.

Bye4now.--Bhadani 03:29, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Re: Admin
Your work speaks for itself. Would you accept an admin's post? Nichalp 20:21, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

 * First of all, thanks for considering me for an admin's post. I'm not sure as to the responsibilities of an admin. Can you point me to such a page? Because, I might feel guilty if I'm not able to devote considerable time in the future. -- 04:11, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

 * See Administrators for more details. == 20:19, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

 * I now feel comfortable about taking the position after reading Administrators. The fact that gives particular comfort is that me becoming an admin doesn't exclude another more suitable person from becoming one. -- 04:14, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

district map of Jharkhand removed by me
hi I have removed District map of jharkhand ... I am planning to get another map, when I am not sure. I am trying to improve Jharkhand, drawing "inspiration" from Goa and Sikkim. I want to do the same for Bihar. However, I donot have sufficient pictures right now. byeee.--Bhadani 07:34, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar
Thanks for the barnstar, my very first:) jguk 20:00, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Decapolis
If you really are interested in creating a new map of the Decapolis, as you offered on Peer Review, I would be happy as can be. Fishal 01:55, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you!! It's wonderful! Better than the old one, in fact :-D Fishal 20:08, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thank You!
Hi Nichalp,

I would like to thank you for your vote of support and confidence for my adminship, it has been much appreciated. If you need anything in future that requires my attention, please do not hesitate to contact me. :)

- Cheers, Mailer Diablo 18:33, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And thanks for your support in my case too. Helpful Dave 14:09, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Kalimpong
Hi!

The photos you pointed me to are now uploaded at commons:category:Kalimpong. I omitted the ones which did not have captions:

kalimpong_16.jpg kalimpong_17.jpg kalimpong_30.jpg kalimpong_32.jpg kalimpong_36.jpg kalimpong_42.jpg kalimpong_44.jpg

Enjoy!--Eloquence* 16:59, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

Johar Jharkhand
Dear Mr Nicholas ... Johar ( = namaskar in Hindi / vannakkam in Tamil) ... So u advised merger of the article with Jharkhand. I had a feeling ... all along I was aware about the fate of the article "Johar Jharkhand" - since deleted. I had, therefore, moved that portion from the main article on Jharkhand.

It was nice that you were watching the developments. It proves one gr8 point: wikipedia articles are read by a very large audience and also attracts attention. I am gradually updating Jharkhand, based on the format of Goa and Sikkim. Please feel free to send me ur suggestions. I want to do something for Bihar also ... May be I will re-write Johar Jharkhand in a style and format which shall conform to the requirements of wikipedia.

All concerend should also try to develop a common format / style to present information / write article/s about districts of India. byee....--Bhadani 09:18, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Goa / Footnotes
Hi; Glad to help. Verified / date is the date I checked it. In this case all I do is check that the page is there and that it's somewhat relevant to the topic. I want to distinguish between accessed (or retrieved) which would be the date that the person who had originally used the reference had retrieved it. The reason is that I can't be sure that the article is still in the state that they saw it.

As far as my date format goes, the format I use YYYY-MM-DD is the ISO standard, and is designed to be unambiguous. I believe that no other official date format has is formatted 4-2-2 (yy-DD-MM may exist, however) so I don't think there's a problem and want to continue using it. Feel free to be bold and fix it though :-) Mozzerati 18:10, 2005 Apr 2 (UTC)

Well I am a fully paid up and official member of WikiProject Fact and Reference Check (I put my name on their page ;-) so yes, you can ask for help from us there for fact checking and the like.. If you want to have one of your FAs checked, put it on the talk page in the list of future articles for checking; one is done every two weeks, at which rate, wikipedia should be accurate shortly before the heat-death of the universe. Mozzerati 18:59, 2005 Apr 2 (UTC)

RFA for Indian cities
Sure, a very good idea indeed. Well, the format and style which u have presented should be acceptable ... let others should also evaluate & comment, and improve. I would feel delighted to be part of "Calcutta" for this project. With all the best. --Bhadani 20:16, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

India location map
Hi, since you were last to edit the image:IndiaLocation.png map, I am contacting you. The map is an POV and we would like it to be as neutral as possible. Could you modify the image so that it becomes as NPOV as possible? Please see the India page maps on the Kashmir region. Thanks. Nichalp 20:09, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi Nichalp. I don't know what POV you're referring to.  I'd be happy to redo the map if you indicate what changes are needed exactly.  Could you provide a link to wherever the discussion is happening?  Thanks, Dbenbenn 20:16, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Transport, governance in India
Instead of including this info in each state and city. Can we just make it an article and refer to it in the state/city pages ?. Atleast it will save us some re-typing and formatting.

Re: Hi
I've always been around, just dabbling on other articles. The cricket stuff is a lot more comprehensive and (mostly) better organised now than a year ago, so I don't feel the need to edit it as much any more. :-) - dmmaus 00:18, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

re: Commons
Hi, would you upload the images you have taken to wikimedia commons instead of the English wikipedia? Just make an account and start uploading. This would help the other language wikis. == 20:29, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

 * Sure. -- 03:40, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Deleting images
Hi Nichalp. I notice you deleted Image:The Decapolis.gif with the reason "I've made a *free* map so there is no need for having this non free map". Please don't do this again! Since an image can't be undeleted, it is very important to not delete an image without being absolutely sure it's okay. In this case, you should have listed the image on WP:IFD. Fortunately, there's another copy of the same map at Image:Decapolis.gif. Cheers, dbenbenn | talk 12:41, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay, I checked your delete log. You also deleted Image:Indian.license.plate.jpg, uploaded by User:Brhaspati, with the reason "poor quality image, replaced it with a high quality one".  Until you understand the policies about deleting images, do not delete any more images.  (Fortunately, all the other images you've deleted, you originally uploaded.  But even in these cases, the images should be listed on WP:IFD.) dbenbenn | talk 13:28, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry I didn't follow the procedures on the decapolis map. I'll list it next time. The licence plate image which Brhaspati uploaded was a zoomed up image of image:howrahbridge.jpg, taken out by me. Since I had a very high resolution of the image, I zoomed into the licence plate and replaced the badly pixilated image. I think [I hope :)] in this case I am justified in deleting the image as I uploaded the new one in commons. == 18:15, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

 * Alright, I'm sorry. I overreacted.  A suggestion: you can put wiki-links in the "Reason for deletion" field (like, a link to the higher-resolution replacement image).  Try to put more explanation in, so that someone paranoid like me won't get frightened!

 * By the way, it would be great if you could upload your "very high resolution" version at image:howrahbridge.jpg. dbenbenn | talk 21:08, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * The image resolution is 1840x1232. Its about 1 MB (JEPG). Since I have a dialup connection, its too much for me to add such high resolutions at this juncture. (Is there a policy on image resolution? -- There used to be 100kb warning last year). Anyways, most of what I delete are the temporary pages and images that I have created. After learning about the virtues of Commons, I upload all my images there. PS. Any news on the map? == 18:50, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, check out Image:Africa satellite plane.jpg, which is 8460x8900! Besides the current upload limit of 8MB, the policy is to get the highest resolution possible.  I hope you're eventually able to upload it.

 * About the map: I'm a perfectionist, and I work slow! User:Vardion, who originally made Image:BlankMap-World.png, might be able to do it faster.  dbenbenn | talk 13:13, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Goa - FAC
hello, Yes sure, I am studying the matter and put my comments soon. okk..--Bhadani 07:20, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks!
Thank you for the barnstar! Will be uploading all my images to Commons this weekend. -- Brhaspati\talk/contribs 02:26, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC)

Sikkim
Really wonderful. Great waork. --Bhadani 03:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Re: Cricket images
Do you still have the cricket images? The external link is still not up and I would like to use add the images to wikipedia. Would you mail me the images? I'll enhance them and upload them after I stich some of them. email me @gmail.com user id: nichalp. =Nichalp (talk · contributions)= 20:17, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes I have them, but the total size of the files is over 30Mb so I had some difficulty in uploading or sending them via email. I had forgotten about them for a while, but I'll have a go when I have time next. Sorry for all the troubles. AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 14:13, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Congrats
I congratulate you for the work of Sikkim to become being the featured article yesterday!

Mr Tan 12:55, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Nichalp/Archive 5


text:
Talk:Fresnel zone

Untitled
needs more reliable sources....--24.144.100.184 02:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

what's the unit of r ? what about the fomula in metric ?

 * I guessed it is "kilobarleycorns". Probably wrong, I suppose.  What are the widths of the subsequent Fresnel zones, those "annular rings"?  What are the widths at other than the halfway point?
 * What do "maximum obstruction" and "recommended obstruction" mean? Gene Nygaard 04:29, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

This article needs to be generalized to include the optics usage. (Yes, I know, sofixit and all that. I don't have time right now, so I'll just mention it here for now.)--Srleffler 04:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Any idea why the formula for the radius on this page gives a different multiplier (43.3 instead of 72.6)? EdDavies 12:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The link to "this page" above appears to be no longer reachable, but I've seen 43.3 elsewhere and had the same question. See this page instead. The 43.3 multiplier (for the radius in feet and distance in miles) may be the "obstacle-free radius", which is often taken as 60% of the Fresnel zone radius. Can someone verify this? 70.89.158.189 21:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC) Gerald Reynolds

General formula is fine, but numerical values only for optics in free-space
I haven't even checked the accuracy of those numerical prefactors, but people should be aware that the concept of a Fresnel zone applies as well to *any* wave phenomenon (my own familiarity with it is in acoustics). I'll change the article if and when I have time, but (1)it should be mentioned that those numerical values which people have been quibbling over are specific to optics in free-space---other values will show up for acoustics problems---still others for other wave-types in different media; or, (2) there should be *no* numerical values given, and simply stress that the formula yields different results based on wave- and media-type. --Smoo222 03:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)smoo222

zone/region ?
Should this page make any distinction between "Fresnel zone" and "Fresnel region" (commonly used in antenna theory)?

In antenna theory, the Fresnel region generally refers to a radial range of distances between the reactive near field (~2*lambda?) of an aperture, and the Fraunhofer region (2*D^2/lambda, where D is the largest dimension of the aperture). Within the Fresnel region, the radiation pattern of the aperture varies significantly with radial distance since the multitude of sources that constitute a given aperture cannot yet accurately be approximated as having a common phase center.

69.137.170.154 23:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Bill Shultz

This is written like a high-school science report. Please recast it in, at the very least, the passive voice.

Error in Attached Image
Currently there's a spurious '15m' above the '20m' on the bottom set of images. It seems to have been left in there by mistake. Xrobau 12:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Article is written to refer only [or predominantly] to radio waves
The article, while apparently sufficient for radio transmitter/receiver problems, mentions almost nothing of other wave types, which of course the entire concept applies to. A specific example is that of mentioning "radio frequency line-of-sight": There is absolutely NO restriction to radio frequencies.

There is also a minor correction which should be made (I have no time to get it totally right), in that it is mentioned that "If unobstructed, radio waves will travel in a straight line from the transmitter to the receiver." This is true at some level of abstraction (that of infinitely high frequency -- the domain of "ray optics"), but *false in the domain where Fresnel zone concepts apply*. In other words, the Fresnel zone is exactly one of several concepts designed to deal with the fact that waves do not travel in straight lines, even when there are no obstructions!

Another suggestion (again, I'll fix it if/when I have time) is to mention the source/receiver reciprocity which is implied by the figures included in the article. For an arbitrary receiver location (imagine the _field_ from the source), the Fresnel zone does not pinch down as is shown in the figures. The "pinching" is a result of the _receiver's_ own Fresnel zone -- that is, its response to an oriented incoming plane wave because the receiver also has a finite width aperture, and an orientation. The cigar-shaped zone in the figures is the *product* of the individual Fresnel zones of the source and receiver, taken individually. Smoo222 (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)Smoo222

Pronunciation discontinuity
Why is Fresnel pronounced "/frɛnɛl/ fre-NELL" in this article, but "(pronounced /freɪˈnɛl/ fray-NELL)" in the Fresnel lens article? Both refer to the same person. I'd fix it, except that I've always pronounced it /frɛz'nɛl/ (frez-nell). My attempt is probably incorrect, but it makes me unaware of which is correct.

118.208.45.140 (talk) 06:05, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems as if the pronounciation has been "fixed" in the Fresnel lens fashion while the correct (French!) pronounciation should probably be "/frɛnɛl/ fre-NELL"!150.227.15.253 (talk) 15:48, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Question about phase information
I don't understand the assertion that an obstacle in the first Fresnel zone will result in an interfering signal 0-90 degrees out of phase, 90-270 degrees if in the second zone, etc.

In the first place, surely the phase change associated with a path that goes from one antenna to point P on the surface of the first Fresnel zone to the second antenna is 180 degrees (one half-wavelength path difference).

In the second place, there will likely be a phase change associated with the object causing the interference. For a specular reflection (e.g., a plane surface many wavelengths in extent, such as a flat roof), the phase change will depend on the angle of incidence, polarization and nature of the surface (e.g., dielectric, highly conducting, etc.) and can vary easily from 0-180 degrees.

108.60.121.98 (talk) 22:25, 2 October 2012 (UTC)Douglas Liddell October 2, 2012

You are correct, this can be very confusing given that the information is erroneous. I saw a webpage that could be the source for this wrong information. I'll fix it to say 0-180 180-360 and so on and add that this is the path-length phase difference. Maxbezada (talk) 20:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Isn't this statement self contradictory: "If a reflective object is tangent to the 1st zone, the electromagnetic wave will be shifted 180o because of the increased path length, undergo an additional 180o phase shift due to the reflection, and reinforce the direct wave at the receiver. Consequently, there should be no reflective objects in the 1st Fresnel zone."

I read it to say that reflections tangent to the 1st zone reinforce the direct wave, so don't have any reflective objects there. Seems like they would enhance the signal at the receiver so you should have many. Jimbo (talk) 01:57, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Confusions
Some of this might already be found in the article or in other comments but I think the article needs substantial clarifications to avoid confusions and misunderstandings.

"Fresnel zones result from diffraction by the circular aperture". No, diffraction by the circular aperture will cause sidelobes in the radiation pattern of circular antennas, but the Fresnel zones are independent of the antennas used (even though both could be important for the end result).

As I understand it the Fresnel zones describes areas of different path differences between the direct beam and an indirect beam that is scattered (e.g. reflected) from some position outside the line of sight. The article may actually say this but not in a very clear way. Since interference depends on phase rather than path differences the path difference is recalculated into a phase difference or difference in wavelengths, lambda. It needs to be clarified whether the zones refers to volumes (the introductory part describes the cross section of the first as circular and the subsequent as annular, which would require the zones to be volumes and a zone in 3D space would normally be interpreted as volume) or if they refer to the limiting surfaces, the distinction does not seem to be well made.

If it is the limiting surface Fn is the zone radius, but if it is a volume it is the outer radius of this volume.

If it is a surface the path difference will be an integer number of wavelengths for the even zones but 0.5*n*lambda for the odd zones. Below I will sometimes refer to the limiting surface as the surface to distinguish it from some zone volume.

If it is a volume the phase difference due to path difference will vary from (n-1)pi to n*pi in the n:th zone, which means that it could either be in-phase or out of phase or have some intermediate phase relation with the direct signal.

In addition to the path difference the scattering process can give rise to phase differences. Often reflexions will lead to a 180 degree phase shift making rays reflected from the n:th surface out of phase with the direct beam. Thus reflexions from the first surface could enhance rather than cancel the signal. Above the Brewster angle reflexions (for beams of vertical polarisation) will not change phase. Scattering may also lead to intermediate phase shifts (typically for lossy media near the Brewster angle) and the end result may also depend on phase shifts of the antenna outside the boresight direction (but since the Fresnel zones are often reasonably narrow compared to the main lobe of the antenna this may rarely be important).

The formula for the Fresnel zone radius appears to be an approximation. Although it is probably a very good approximation in most cases it is good to indicate this with a "curly equal sign" and to clearly state that the radius corresponds to a path difference of 0.5*n*lambda.

One reference that may be worth adding is: 150.227.15.253 (talk) 15:48, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

One of the Worst Technical Articles on Fresnel Zones
This article is wrong on many levels, including its reference to circular apertures and diffraction (concepts also associated with Fresnel, but having no relationship to Fresnel zones). Specifically, the stated formula is trivially derived based on the difference between the direct path length and alternate path lengths being a multiple of a half-wavelength between two points (i.e., the transmitting and receiving antennas):

 * $$F_n = \sqrt{\frac{n \lambda d_1 d_2}{d_1 + d_2}} $$

where,

Fn = The nth Fresnel Zone radius in metres

d1 = The distance of P from one end in metres

d2 = The distance of P from the other end in metres

$$\lambda$$ = The wavelength of the transmitted signal in metres

The various Fresnel zone ellipsoids do not "define volumes in the radiation pattern of a (usually) circular aperture": they define the respective terminating surfaces for alternate path lengths that differ by the various multiples of a half-wavelength.

The Confusions section above alludes to this problem: I am declaring BULLSHIT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.3.80.189 (talk) 05:02, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I would put it this way: the article tells you how to calculate an ellipsoid. What this has to do with wave transmission, reflection from obstacles, interference patterns, or anything like that, you'll have to learn elsewhere, because the author of this article is keeping pretty quiet on those points. But you can visualize the ellipsoid. 178.39.188.74 (talk) 15:50, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

resummarized
That was about the worst summary I've ever seen on an article. I know what fresnel zones are, and even I was confused after reading it. Bad phrasing, extraneous material, parenthetical extras, weasel words, ick. I just rewrote it from scratch and then tried to see if there was anything I left out that was in the original text that could be salvaged. I leave it up to someone else to make it more accurate, but I think now it is at least understandable. --ssd (talk) 04:50, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, and the illustrations are probably wrong too. --ssd (talk) 04:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:36, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Shape around the antenna
The antennas are in the focal points of the Fresnel zone, not at its boundary, as stated in "The cross sectional radius of each Fresnel zone is ..., shrinking to a point at the antenna on each end." Petr Matas 14:37, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. This should be corrected to state that radius of the first Fresnel Zone ellipsoid reduces to approximately one-fourth of a wavelength at locations near either of the antennae (focal points). Or for the n'th Fresnel zone: $$r \approx \frac{n \lambda}{4}$$. The radius goes to zero at the points $$\frac{n \lambda}{8}$$ beyond each antenna. PhysBrain (talk) 22:55, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Phase Analogy
The Fresnel zone is a difficult concept to visualize and understand because it involves quite a few different things such as phase, distance, deflection, cycles, multipath, polarity, etc., and it's even more difficult to explain. It may be easier to understand by using an analogy with something that one can sense (e.g. sound waves) rather than something one can only imagine (e.g. radio waves). I'll try an analogy for phase here.

Let's say Alfred is hammering a large nail into a hard piece of wood. He is hammering a blow at exactly one strike per second. Each strike of the hammer of the nail makes a very loud sound.

Let's say Bill is standing next to Alfred. We will call this Location X. We can imagine Alfred's hammer is the transmitter and Bill's ears are the receiver. Each blow of the hammer coincides with the sound Bill hears. The sound is in-sync.

Bill calls Alfred on his cell phone and Alfred answers it with his left hand as he hammers with his right hand. Bill holds the phone to his left ear. It's a perfect cellular network and the hammering Bill hears on the cell phone in his left ear is exactly in-sync with the actual sound Bill hears from his right ear. He hears the hammer in both ears at the same time.

Now let's place Bill several hundred meters away from Alfred. We will call this Location Y.

Alfred is still hammering, but now the sound doesn't coincide to the hammering. When Alfred strikes the nail, Bill hears it with his left ear via the cell phone, but Bill hears nothing with his right ear. But when Alfred lifts the hammer over his head, Bill finally hears the sound with his right ear. This is obviously because the soundwave moves so much slower than a light wave or a radio wave. As Alfred continues to hammer, the pattern remains the same. Instead of hearing the hammer hit the nail once per second, he hears it hit the nail twice per second. In fact, it sounds like the nail is being hit twice as fast. We can say the sound is out of sync.

Now let's move Bill several hundred meters away further still. We will call this Location Z.

Alfred is still hammering, but now everything seems fine just as it was in Location X. Bill can see Alfred hammering, and he can hear Alfred hammering in both ears at the same time. Each sound seems to coincide with the strike of the hammer. The sound is in sync.

The sounds are not the same sounds, they are not the same wave, but they are arriving at Bill's ears at the same time, and seem to be the same sounds.

So this in-sync and out-of-sync might be one way to visualize the concept of in-phase and out-of-phase. The sounds can be associated with the top of a cycle. When the same transmission arrives at a receiver from two different directions due to deflection, it's important that they arrive in-phase. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.98.253 (talk) 13:35, 8 January 2017 (UTC) Mark The Droner (talk) 22:55, 10 January 2017 (UTC)Mark The Droner

Fairly Major Edit
This page has had major issues for over ten years now. I've read it several times, and although parts of it are very well written, other parts, even within the well-written parts, are poorly or downright badly explained using incorrect words and numbers. So after studying it for some time, I took it upon myself to rewrite parts of the first two sections. I also added a Polarity section, as it is impossible to conclude what happens to a signal bouncing in the Fresnel zone without discussing its polarity. Finally, I really don't like either of the first two graphics. Although they do give the reader an idea of the different regions of the Fresnel zone, there are errors in each which confuse the reader. For example, the first graphic shows n=1, but "n" is nowhere to be found in the graphic. And nothing in the explanation below the graphic makes any sense to me. In the second graphic, the placement of the numbers 1, 2, and 3 are nothing short of horrible and will do nothing but completely confuse the reader. Also, it shows the antennas touching the second Fresnel zone which is impossible. I would redraw both of these graphics but I have no such tools to do so. Perhaps somebody with such illustrative graphic tools and a sound understanding of the Fresnel zone regions could step in and replace these graphics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark The Droner (talk • contribs) 12:03, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

 * I have done a major copyedit cleanup sweep to fix a number of problems, though more work is still needed, so I tagged some of the remaining problems which I did not have time to fix. I replaced the confusing and non-standard term "polarity" with the more technically-correct term "polarization" (attempting to Wikilink the former term revealed just how confusing the non-standard terminology was). I added a number of Wikilinks to further information on some basic technical terms when they are first introduced. I cleaned up the page layout somewhat, bringing it more into compliance with Wikipedia standards for readability and accessibility.

 * The WP:Tone of some sections needs to be copyedited for a more encyclopedic Wikipedia style. The number of footnotes needs to be increased beyond the paltry 3 ones at present.

 * As for improving the graphics, I agree that they need improvement, but I don't have the specialized skills to do this work. I suggest that the Graphics Lab people be contacted, with specific requests to modify the existing diagrams or to create new ones. Somebody with technical expertise in Fresnel zones will have to work closely with a graphics specialist, unless somebody with both areas of knowledge can be found. Reify-tech (talk) 19:35, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Ah, yes. (Looks like you forgot to sign).  Good work.  It has better organization and clarity.  One thing that stands out for me though is in the opening sentence:  "A Fresnel zone (/freɪˈnɛl/ fray-nel), named for physicist Augustin-Jean Fresnel, is one of a series of concentric [b]prolate[/b] ellipsoidal regions of space between and around a transmitting antenna and a receiving antenna system."  It clarifies and confuses me at the same time.  It defines what a zone is in that it can be any region.  In other words, there are a near-infinite number of Fresnel zones surrounding an antenna system - it's not just one zone with multiple regions.  That makes sense and I actually wasn't clear on that point.  But I don't understand your apparent addition of the word "prolate" here.  The word seems to describe every Freznel zone as that of a shape of a football standing on end.  While I agree the entire series of zones together would resemble this, and many of the latter zones would resemble this, but it's misleading and confusing to describe it as (any) one of a series.  For example, the first zone would certainly not resemble a football standing on end.  It would resemble a football laying on its side.  The truth is, a given zone could be prolate or oblate, but the zones together as a whole would be prolate.  So I think the opening sentence is better with the word "prolate" omitted.

 * Re phase shift - it's difficult to describe without a graphic. I hope the use of degrees isn't confusing, as I'm using the word in terms of rotations of a circle (or cycle), not angles.  Hence, 360 degrees is a full cycle, 180 degrees is a half cycle, 90 degrees is a quarter cycle, etc.  And in this case, the words cycle and wavelength are synonymous.  Thanks again.  Mark The Droner (talk) 16:56, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I forgot to to sign; this is fixed now. To clarify, the words "prolate spheroid" describe a shape, not a spatial orientation. You may be conflating this term with the words "prone" or "pronate", the first of which means "lying face down". See the article Spheroid for details. The 3D shape of a Fresnel zone derives directly from the geometrical properties of a prolate ellipsoid in relation to reflections which maintain a constant path length (which directly affects phase). Regarding the graphics, the transmitter and receiver should technically be located at the two foci of the ellipse, and not at the very ends of the ellipse or outside of the closed curve. For a long, extended ellipse (a common occurrence in real-world situations), this may be a fine distinction that isn't easy to see, but reflections can cause constructive interference even from behind the receiver, for example. Reify-tech (talk) 19:35, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Indeed. That fact was missing from the version of a couple weeks ago which is why I added the words "and around" to the opening sentence.  After all, certain antennas such as a windsurfer and a parabolic wouldn't work if the Fresnel zone didn't surround the antenna system.  Mark The Droner (talk) 13:55, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Polarization
The following regarding polarization reflects a less than complete understanding of electromagnetic theory, specifically, plane waves and polarization:

Linear polarization — the sine wave moves on a plane Vertical polarization — the sine wave moves on a vertical plane Horizontal polarization — the sine wave moves on a horizontal plane Circular polarization — the sine wave moves in a tight three-dimensional helix as it leaves the transmitting antenna RHCP (right-hand circular polarization) — the sine wave moves clockwise as it leaves the transmitter LHCP (left-hand circular polarization) — the sine wave moves counter-clockwise

First, a plane wave's equiphase surface lies on a plane, a spherical wave's equiphase surface lies on a sphere, and a cylindrical wave's equiphase surface lies on a cylinder, regardless of whether the wave's electric-field vector changes its direction along a line (i.e., linear polarization) or rotates (i.e., elliptical or circular polarization). In practice, all electromagnetic waves are essentially spherical waves when far enough away from the source, and over any sufficiently small observation region at that distance, are treated as locally planar. The characterization of a circularly-polarized wave as moving "in a tight three-dimensional helix" is just wrong on many levels. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.191.0.144 (talk) 19:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

 * If you can provide a better description or explanation of polarization as it applies to a Fresnel Zone, please do so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark The Droner (talk • contribs) 00:08, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

 * Removing blatantly incorrect statements is somewhat more important than replacing it with new information, IMO. This is an encyclopedia, and encyclopedias should be factually accurate. What was stated was not a description or explanation of polarization and was simply confusing and wrong. Footlessmouse (talk) 22:44, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

 * There is nothing incorrect about the polarization description above. It's very possible polarization does not apply to certain waves such as light waves or sound waves.  I don't know.  But I do know understanding polarization is very important regarding radio wave transmission and receiving.  And therefore it is immeasurably important when considering the Fresnel Zone since constructive and destructive interference within a certain zone would depend wholly on polarization.  Another point - if polarization didn't matter or didn't exist, the Soviets would not have developed circular polarization.  Specific polarizations have their advantages and disadvantages depending on the environment.  Mark The Droner (talk) 13:00, 20 April 2021 (UTC)Mark The Droner

Current page still flawed
As a WISP operator of twenty years and counting, ten years supporting AT&T Long Lines microwave paths in the early '70s, and almost fifty years total of radio propagation experience ... I can objectively say the current page has many errors.

There are so many errors and misunderstandings, it's impossible to edit anything on the page. I may start a new paragraph called CORRECTIONS and let the erroneous information as is.

To start ... The equation assumes an isotropic starting and ending points which don't exist in the real world; it mentions obstructions in the path which is incorrect as the equation deals with reflections, not refractions or obstructions.

WISP operators treat the equation as the holy grail of propagation requirements, when in reality I have seen it in practice only once in my life. An operator asked my opinion of his path equations before spending $20,000 in a mid-span repeater link - I ran my version of the equation and showed his initial assessment was flawed ... I saved him $20,000.

40%
In the Clearance calculation section, the article states 40% is maximum allowable obstruction. What?! I guess we're talking about the ellipsoid? Are we talking about its volume or perhaps the "area" of the (curved?) lines between emitter and receiver? I really don't have any idea and the article just tosses it in as if it's obvious.98.21.213.85 (talk) 17:00, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

 * Yes, it's difficult to understand. The concept of the Fresnel Zone is very complex and difficult to explain.  You have to understand what polarity means and what "phase shift" means and why it happens and how it is related to the various Fresnel Zones.  You also have to have a clear understanding of what happens to polarity of a secondary signal when it is deflected within the first or second Fresnel zone.  The location of the object deflecting (above, below, right, left) matters greatly due to the signal's polarity.  If you understand polarity and phase shift, then everything will make sense.  The percentages are actually referring to phase shift of a late arriving or deflected secondary signal (other than the primary signal).  In other words, a little bit of phase shift is okay, but a lot is not okay.  If you understand that, then you'll understand why 20% is okay and 40% is worst case and might be tolerated but would be best to avoid if possible.  Anything more than 50% will cause major interference because the two signals (primary and secondary) will begin to cancel each other out.  The whole Fresnel Zone concept is difficult to wrap your head around.  It will generally take 2-3 reads of the page and some careful reflection to get it.  Once you get it, everything will make sense. Mark The Droner (talk) 23:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Flashlight Analogy
I'm adding a flashlight analogy to this talk section to help confused readers who wander in here understand Fresnel Zones. Do not confuse this analogy with the behavior of light waves, as this particular example is specific to radio waves transmitted in vertical polarity (know that most radio waves are transmitted in vertical polarity).

Stand in a rectangular room at ground level. We'll say this entire room is in the 1st Fresnel Zone. Your associate is standing in the far end of the room and is holding a flashlight. You stand in the other end of the room. The flashlight is the transmitter, your eyes are the receiver.

There is a large mirror laying on the floor.

Your associate moves the flashlight up and down and up and down in rhythm. This flashlight mimics the energy of any vertical dipole antenna which would transmit the energy up and down in the form of a sine wave. Your eyes see the light from the flashlight directly. This is the primary signal. The flashlight appears to be moving up and down and up and down in rhythm.

Now look in the mirror on the floor. The same flashlight is moving as seen in the mirror. But it does not appear to be moving up and down and up and down. Instead, the image is inverted. The flashlight appears to be moving down and up and down and up.

This is what happens to a vertical polarity wave when it deflects off the ground. The wave becomes inverted.

Both these "signals" are in the first Fresnel Zone which means, by definition, there is very little change in phase shift. That's because the distance between the lamp and the eyes is very close to the distance between the lamp and the mirror plus the mirror and the eyes. We could say, for example, the primary distance is 100 and the secondary distance is 100.1.

However, because of the deflection of the mirror, the secondary signal, which is inverted (or upside down) is completely out of phase with the primary signal, and effectively cancels out the sine wave of the primary signal. Hence, we have destructive interference due to the deflective surface of the mirror.

In the real world, an antenna installer facing such a problem might consider raising the length of the transmitting antenna, or receiving antenna, or both antennas, which would effectively move the deflective object out of the first Fresnel Zone and into the second Fresnel Zone.

Back to our experiment.

Now, remove the mirror. Run the same experiment. Ignoring the floor, walls, and ceiling, you have a wonderful line-of-sight signal with no interference. Perfect!

Next, place the mirror on the left wall. Run the same experiment. Now you can see the light moving in the mirror. Let's say this distance, again, is 100.1. This time, the flashlight appears to be moving up and down and up and down exactly in tandem with the "primary signal." Hence, the signal is even better than before, it's a stronger signal, and there is no phase shift problem. It's perfect. It's even better than perfect.

All the above has happened in the first Fresnel Zone and therefore is pretty straight forward.

Now let's look at the second Fresnel Zone. Here's where it gets tricky.

The primary signal is exactly the same as before. It's the same distance. Let's say it's 100.

But now the left wall of the house is gone and the mirror is hung on the left side stockade fence outside. The distance that the secondary signal travels is greater than before, it's now 100.5. And this is enough distance to cause a phase shift relative to the primary signal. The phase shift of the deflected secondary signal is one half wave length out of sync with the primary signal, and therefore, cancels out the primary wave and is destructive interference.

Now move the mirror onto the exterior wall of the neighbor's house. This represents the third Fresnel Zone. The distance of the secondary signal is now 101. This is enough distance to cause a phase shift of exactly one wave length - which means there is no effective phase shift. The arriving waves of the primary and secondary signals are exactly aligned. This is constructive interference.

One could create dozens of such scenarios, but the concept is the same. Mark The Droner (talk)17 February 2024

title: Talk:Fresnel zone


text:
Talk:Guo

VfD results
This article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. For details, please see Votes for deletion/Guo. -- BD2412 talk 19:43, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

baiqi hui Guo clan
http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/xiamen-info-596.html

http://faculty.washington.edu/stevehar/ANTH470Fanke.pdf

Claiming descent from Guo Ziyi

http://books.google.com/books?id=9MouAQAAIAAJ&q=guo+ziyi+hui&dq=guo+ziyi+hui&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ca-mUKaBIIr49gSZkIGICA&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBg

http://books.google.com/books?id=0o6xAAAAIAAJ&q=baiqi+fujian&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qX_SUKacE4L40gHzsIDoDg&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCTgK

http://books.google.com/books?id=bcsmAQAAMAAJ&q=baiqi+fujian&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9bKmUKrtHpKC8QSys4HwDw&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg

http://books.google.com/books?id=P2E4AAAAMAAJ&q=baiqi+fujian&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wbOmULqGM4PK9gT6tIHIDA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBzgK

http://books.google.com/books?id=KoiD_yafPT8C&pg=PA90&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WnvSUPHFMoKR0QH1wIHgCA&ved=0CGAQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=baiqi%20fujian&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=ddddmhXofKoC&pg=PA116&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WnvSUPHFMoKR0QH1wIHgCA&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=baiqi%20fujian&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=QgUoAQAAMAAJ&q=baiqi+fujian&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U4HSUJ_JHcOZ0QGzuIGACA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBDgK

The baiqi hui Guo clan in malaysia

http://www.islam.org.hk/eng/malaysia/ChineseMuslim_in_Malaysia.asp

百崎回族乡

http://books.google.com/books?id=PK_keabzacsC&pg=PA62&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x3_SUOD-AojX0QHP7oHYDQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=baiqi%20fujian&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=sPo8qbj3N_MC&pg=PA299&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ooHSULzWA6Hj0gHz34CYCA&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=baiqi%20fujian&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=nPmAAAAAMAAJ&q=baiqi+fujian&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qX_SUKacE4L40gHzsIDoDg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwADgK

http://books.google.com/books?id=9MouAQAAIAAJ&q=baiqi+fujian&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NoHSUOONE6rh0wGR0oHoDA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg

http://books.google.com/books?id=sPo8qbj3N_MC&pg=PA299&dq=baiqi+fujian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NoHSUOONE6rh0wGR0oHoDA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=baiqi%20fujian&f=false

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/chinese-iranian-vii

Rajmaan (talk) 04:43, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

http://books.google.com/books?id=wAh98-1VulkC&pg=PA258&dq=zheng+he+baiqi+guo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DC4hU8TOFuXA0gGM4YGoCA&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=zheng%20he%20baiqi%20guo&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fz7-QxK3O90C&pg=PA90&dq=zheng+he+baiqi+guo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DC4hU8TOFuXA0gGM4YGoCA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=zheng%20he%20baiqi%20guo&f=false

Page 209

http://books.google.com/books?id=d70MAQAAMAAJ&q=for+rest+and+reorganization+before+his+fifth+navigation+to+the+West,+he+was+acquainted+with+Guo+Zhongyuan,+a+Hui+old+man&dq=for+rest+and+reorganization+before+his+fifth+navigation+to+the+West,+he+was+acquainted+with+Guo+Zhongyuan,+a+Hui+old+man&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hzAhU6u-KpOV0gGvi4DQDA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ

Page 192

http://books.google.com/books?id=EuttAAAAMAAJ&q=zheng+he+baiqi+guo&dq=zheng+he+baiqi+guo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DC4hU8TOFuXA0gGM4YGoCA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw

http://books.google.com/books?id=EuttAAAAMAAJ&q=Those+of+the+Muslim+Guo+clan+—+that+is,+descendants+of+the+Persian+Muslims+from+the+Yuan+dynasty+times+—+lived+at+a+village+called+Baiqi+on+the+eastern+shore+of+the+Houzhu+harbor+pf+Quanzhou.+15+Near+the+shore+at+the+west+end+of+the+...&dq=Those+of+the+Muslim+Guo+clan+—+that+is,+descendants+of+the+Persian+Muslims+from+the+Yuan+dynasty+times+—+lived+at+a+village+called+Baiqi+on+the+eastern+shore+of+the+Houzhu+harbor+pf+Quanzhou.+15+Near+the+shore+at+the+west+end+of+the+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XzAhU9ueOaaZ0QHCvIGYBg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA

Page 284

http://books.google.com/books?id=bcsmAQAAMAAJ&q=It+is+also+not+surprising+that+the+descendants+of+these+early+foreign+Muslim+residents+in+Quanzhou—the+Ding,+Guo,+Huang,+Jin,+and+other+Hui+lineages—are+interested+in+further+interaction+with+foreign+Muslim+relations.&dq=It+is+also+not+surprising+that+the+descendants+of+these+early+foreign+Muslim+residents+in+Quanzhou—the+Ding,+Guo,+Huang,+Jin,+and+other+Hui+lineages—are+interested+in+further+interaction+with+foreign+Muslim+relations.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fTFlU8buDLOqsQSp0ICICw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA

Page 472

http://books.google.com/books?id=0o6xAAAAIAAJ&q=It+is+also+not+surprising+that+the+descendants+of+these+early+foreign+Muslim+residents+in+Quanzhou—the+Ding,+Guo,+Huang,+Jin,+and+other+Hui+lineages—are+interested+in+further+interaction+with+foreign+Muslim+relations.&dq=It+is+also+not+surprising+that+the+descendants+of+these+early+foreign+Muslim+residents+in+Quanzhou—the+Ding,+Guo,+Huang,+Jin,+and+other+Hui+lineages—are+interested+in+further+interaction+with+foreign+Muslim+relations.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fTFlU8buDLOqsQSp0ICICw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=gvPOAPar9XUC&pg=PA254&dq=zheng+he+guo+quanzhou&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DTFlU8DAHOjJsQSE74CwDg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=zheng%20he%20guo%20quanzhou&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=wAh98-1VulkC&pg=PA258&dq=zheng+he+guo+baiqi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KDVlU8aBNa_jsASsz4DABg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=zheng%20he%20guo%20baiqi&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fz7-QxK3O90C&pg=PA90&dq=zheng+he+guo+baiqi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KDVlU8aBNa_jsASsz4DABg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=zheng%20he%20guo%20baiqi&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fz7-QxK3O90C&pg=PA90&dq=.+for+rest+and+reorganization+before+his+fifth+navigation+to+the+West,+he+was+acquainted+with+Guo+Zhongyuan,+a+Hui+old+man.+...+To+thank+Zheng,+the+Hui+people+there+built+%5Ban+official%5D+welcoming+pavilion+at+the+Baiqi+Ferry+outside+Huian+,+where+they+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bjVlU4LpG6i_sQTN6YGIBw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=.%20for%20rest%20and%20reorganization%20before%20his%20fifth%20navigation%20to%20the%20West%2C%20he%20was%20acquainted%20with%20Guo%20Zhongyuan%2C%20a%20Hui%20old%20man.%20...%20To%20thank%20Zheng%2C%20the%20Hui%20people%20there%20built%20%5Ban%20official%5D%20welcoming%20pavilion%20at%20the%20Baiqi%20Ferry%20outside%20Huian%20%2C%20where%20they%20...&f=false

Page 209

http://books.google.com/books?id=d70MAQAAMAAJ&q=.+for+rest+and+reorganization+before+his+fifth+navigation+to+the+West,+he+was+acquainted+with+Guo+Zhongyuan,+a+Hui+old+man.+...+To+thank+Zheng,+the+Hui+people+there+built+%5Ban+official%5D+welcoming+pavilion+at+the+Baiqi+Ferry+outside+Huian+,+where+they+...&dq=.+for+rest+and+reorganization+before+his+fifth+navigation+to+the+West,+he+was+acquainted+with+Guo+Zhongyuan,+a+Hui+old+man.+...+To+thank+Zheng,+the+Hui+people+there+built+%5Ban+official%5D+welcoming+pavilion+at+the+Baiqi+Ferry+outside+Huian+,+where+they+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bjVlU4LpG6i_sQTN6YGIBw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ

Page 192

http://books.google.com/books?ei=gDVlU-C_D7WxsASgjoCQBw&id=EuttAAAAMAAJ&dq=The+writer+of+both+inscriptions+was+Zheng+He%2C+and+the+date+of+both+inscriptions+is+the+sixth+year+of+Xuan-de+%28+1+43+1+%29+.+...+Guo+clan+—+that+is%2C+descendants+of+the+Persian+Muslims+from+the+Yuan+dynasty+times+—+lived+at+a+village+called+Baiqi+on++...&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=zheng+he+guo+baiqi

Page 107

http://books.google.com/books?id=Yz_SAAAAMAAJ&q=He+was+called+%22Jiu+Shu+Gong%22+by+the+local+Guos.+...+There+are+also+some+Islamic+books,+hand-copied+in+the+Qing+Dynasty,+found+in+Baiqi.+...+Among+them+are+The+Quran+in+Arabic+and+Chinese+books+Tian+Fang+Dian+Li,+Zhen+Gong+Fe+Wei,+Qing+Zhen+Fa+Meng+etc.+...+His+is+what+is+in+the+heavens+and+what+is+©See+the+footnote+of+the+Chinese+text,+The+Genealogies+of+the+Guo+family.+in+the+earth,.+.+.+save+by+His+...&dq=He+was+called+%22Jiu+Shu+Gong%22+by+the+local+Guos.+...+There+are+also+some+Islamic+books,+hand-copied+in+the+Qing+Dynasty,+found+in+Baiqi.+...+Among+them+are+The+Quran+in+Arabic+and+Chinese+books+Tian+Fang+Dian+Li,+Zhen+Gong+Fe+Wei,+Qing+Zhen+Fa+Meng+etc.+...+His+is+what+is+in+the+heavens+and+what+is+©See+the+footnote+of+the+Chinese+text,+The+Genealogies+of+the+Guo+family.+in+the+earth,.+.+.+save+by+His+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pjVlU9DAA6ezsQSGvoDwBw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=vIUmU2ytmIIC&pg=PA172&dq=zheng+he+guo+quanzhou&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DTFlU8DAHOjJsQSE74CwDg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=zheng%20he%20guo%20quanzhou&f=false

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197004/islam.in.taiwan.htm

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/08/31/2003421916/2

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MQFV0-GHGXQJ:www.csict.nccu.edu.tw/active/Ma_Cao-yen_paper.doc+ma+chao-yen+allah&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://www.csict.nccu.edu.tw/active/Ma_Cao-yen_paper.doc

Relocation and Symbolic Capital Some Architectural Representations of the Hui Nationality in South of Fujian in Recent Years

http://base.china-europa-forum.net/rsc/docs/doc_572.pdf

http://www.china-europa-forum.net/bdfdoc-572_en.html

http://wenku.baidu.com/view/9bae085077232f60ddcca1cc.html

Rajmaan (talk) 02:49, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense
The xia dynasty is mythicalFourLights (talk) 12:25, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Guo


text:
Nevada State Route 156

State Route 156 (SR 156), also known as Lee Canyon Road, is a state highway in Clark County, Nevada. The road is one of two highways connecting U.S. Route 95 (US 95) to the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest and Spring Mountains area northwest of Las Vegas and its entire length is designated a Nevada Scenic Byway.

When first created in the 1930s, the highway followed a slightly different path that formed State Route 52. The SR 52 designation was later realigned and extended west to the California state line via Pahrump, but was discontinuous through the national forest. The route was ultimately split into separate highways in the 1970s.

History
The road now known as State Route 156 has origins dating to at least 1933. At that time, it was an unimproved county road that ran from State Route 5 (now US 95) at Indian Springs to the northern border of what was then called the Nevada National Forest. By 1935, this road had been designated as State Route 52, and apparently extended through the national forest (along what may now be State Route 158) ending at State Route 39 (now SR 157) east of Charleston Peak.

The routing of SR 52 had been changed by 1937. The highway was moved to the current alignment of Lee Canyon Road, beginning on State Route 5 several miles southeast of Indian Springs and ending in Lee Canyon. Around the same time, the highway designation was extended further west. SR 52 now traveled southwest through the national forest lands, crossing State Route 16 (now SR 160) in Pahrump to end at the California state line (on what is now California State Route 178) en route to Shoshone, resulting in approximately 47 mi of unimproved highway. By 1940, the eastern end of the route between US 95 and the Nevada National Forest had been fully paved. However, a gap now existed between the paved portion of the highway within the national forest and the unimproved road southwest of the western forest boundary. A trail through the Spring Mountains would connect the two segments of State Route 52 in later years. While improvements were made to the western portion of the route in the 1950s and 1960s, the trail through Clark Canyon was never improved to a full roadway.

On July 1, 1976, Nevada began the process of renumbering all of the state's numbered highways. The Lee Canyon Road portion of SR 52 was redesignated as State Route 156, while the portion between Pahrump and the California state line was renumbered to State Route 372. The remainder of the route, from Pahrump to the Toiyabe National Forest, was removed from the state highway system. The changes in route numbering were reflected on official state highway maps beginning in 1978.

By 2017, the first 0.627 mi of SR 156 at the Lee Canyon ski area had been removed from the routing.

The Nevada Department of Transportation designated State Route 156 as a Nevada Scenic Byway in July 1998. The "Mount Charleston/Lee Canyon Road" scenic route encompasses the entire 17.5 mi of highway.

title: Nevada State Route 156


text: User talk:66.208.219.21

title: User talk:66.208.219.21


text:
Talk:Inherent powers (United States)

Untitled
This is a terrible mess. The massive block of text was just added, I have no idea if any of it is keepable or not. --Xyzzyplugh 15:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Inherent powers (United States)


text:
Mutilation Makes Identification Difficult

Mutilation Makes Identification Difficult is the first studio album by the self-described "acid punk" band Brutal Juice. It was released in June 1995 on Interscope Records. The album features "Nationwide" and "The Vaginals," two tracks which received airplay (primarily on college radio stations).

"The Vaginals" was retitled "Ugly on the Inside" (after the song's chorus) due to the label's choice to promote it as the album's single. Later pressings of the album (as well as the music video) bear the latter title for track #3.

A working title for this album was Everything's Coming Up Toilets. The final title was chosen when the band found decaying human remains in the woods near the recording studio and later read "Mutilation Makes Identification Difficult" as a headline in the local newspaper.

Critical reception
The Washington Post wrote that "those of the band's lyrics that can be discerned do indeed seem brutal, but they're tempered by a surprising pop savvy. Aside from the 15 minutes of ambient indulgence that close the album, these songs are cannily structured and sometimes even catchy." Stylus Magazine called it a "bitingly funny record in spots."

Track listing

 * 1) "Kentucky Fuck Daddy" – 3:51
 * 2) "Burpgun" – 3:59
 * 3) "The Vaginals" – 2:13
 * 4) "Nationwide" – 5:14
 * 5) "Lashings of the Ultra-violent" – 2:36
 * 6) "Kathy Rigby" – 4:23
 * 7) "Galaxy" – 4:02
 * 8) "Curbjob" – 2:51
 * 9) "Humus Tahini" – 5:13
 * 10) "Character Assassination Attempt" – 3:22
 * 11) "Cannibal Holocaust" – 4:21
 * 12) "Doorman" – 5:44
 * 13) "Whorehouse of Screams" – 20:01

Personnel

 * Craig Welch - lead vocals, guitar, boom
 * Gordon Gibson - lead vocals, guitar, keyboard, toilets (the album artwork features several photographs of what appear to be bloody toilets)
 * Ted Wood - guitar, vocals
 * Ben Burt - drums, percussion, vocals
 * Sam McCall - bass, guitar, vocals, pre-production
 * Emma Gibson - additional keyboards
 * Joey Gibson - additional vocals (on "Kathy Rigby")
 * Commander Adama - additional weirdness
 * Dwayne Smith - road guru
 * Adam Katz - executive producer, management
 * Stuart Sullivan - producer
 * Sylvia Massy - mixer (at Pedernales Studio, except "The Vaginals")
 * Boo McLeod - second engineer
 * Steve Starnes - second engineer
 * Unleashed - art direction+design
 * David Quadrini - paintings
 * Vanessa Carlson - band photos
 * Mariah Aguiar - band photos
 * Dylan Griffin - toilets