text:
User talk:Jmw0000

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Jayjg (talk) 15:41, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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disambig
You were going about that Kelly Clarkson disambig all wrong. There was already a dab page at Breakaway. I added the Beach Boys link there and moved her song to Breakaway (Kelly Clarkson song). You erased the entire article, and we try to keep the edit histories intact without doing that. Regards, Mike H. That's hot 08:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

 * OK, I just saw, no problem.

 * I also moved your article to Breakaway (Beach Boys song). Regards, Mike H. That's hot 08:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Chomsky
You have added

 * Has an admiration for Bolivia and Evo Morales and socialist states in general. Refers to the People's Republic of China as one of the world's leading peaceloving states (Speech, Binghamton University, March 4, 2006)

In future please refrain from adding unsourceable / misleading text to articles. Zleitzen 12 March 2006

 * Thank you for replying to my post. Please understand that the aim of Wikipedia is to construct established academic encyclopaedia methods. Your additions would not be sufficient within that context, as you have confirmed that the only source is yourself. Given that your statements are contentious, it is only correct that they should be removed until sources have been legitimately referenced.

 * Your statement concerning Chomsky and China is contentious and potentially misleading to readers when compared to the statement Chomsky makes here

 * http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=90&ItemID=6751

 * Chomsky quotes the former Director of Foreign Policy Studies at the Brookings Institution, John Steinbruner who said the words“US militarism and aggressiveness will be countered by a coalition of peace-loving states, led by China” Chomsky adds “We have come to a pretty pass when such words are expressed in the most respectable and sober journals. It is also worth noting how deep is the despair of the authors over the state of American democracy. Whether or not the assessment is merited is for activists to determine.”

 * Therefore Chomsky is merely quoting Steinbruner rather than expressing that opinion himself. Unless there is evidence otherwise then the matter cannot be continued --Zleitzen 20:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: Vandalism Report
I was working on a paper-I still am-and am reverting edits from user 151.188.16.40. He has appeared to contribute nothing except vandalism. Worse, some of these are undetected, and updated after. He has been blocked several times, and I'm wondering if this IP can be blocked once and for all. J. M. 08:43, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Hello! I would be happy to help with this.  Can you give me a link to the article being vandalised in order for me to compare the edits in the history, please?  I can also look at the other contributions from this IP address.  Regards,   (aeropagitica)   12:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Nordic Council
Hello. This edit of yours effectively undid a prior edit made by me. Your edit summary simply stated ''rv. vandalism''. This is inappropriate use of both the edit summary and the term vandalism irritates me. I strongly advise you not to use "vandalism" as an epithet, but only refer to an edit as such if it is beyond reasonable doubt that the edit in question does in fact constitute vandalism. I have now restored my prior edit, and will be keeping a watchful eye on that article's talk page to see if you are going to explain your grievances there or post any constructive suggestions for how the article might be improved. BigAdamsky | TALK | EDITS | 13:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Commented on prior page. The vandalism came from another author, hence why I went back a few pages.  Everything should be settled now.J. M. 07:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Phish
First of all, welcome to wikipedia, it looks as if you are new. But if you are not, disregard that. I dont want to get off to a bad start, but, if i may speak candidly, exactly how much of the Phish article did you read. Now, dont get me wrong, i am not trying to criticize. Its just been that in the past, people who have posted an NPOV tag, read only parts of the article, found one or two NPOV statements and freaked out.

Now, you said you were unable to remove the NPOV because you dont know enough about the band or music. But, NPOV can be removed without having any knowledge of the topic you are reading about. For example, take these to statements: "Kevin Garnett, one of the best basketball players in the NBA..." - this is obviously an NPOV statement, so, even if you didnt know a thing about basketball, you could easily remove the NPOV by changing the grammer, such as "Kevin Garnett, an American basketball player in the NBA..."

So, with this example, you dont need to know anything except basic grammer to remove a bulk of the NPOV that is in articles. So, for now i am going to remove the NPOV tag and i encourage you to re-read through the article and remove the small NPOV you may see, or post on the talk page if you are unsure or have questions. Thanks, and let me know if you have any questions.--Gephart 07:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I've read the article. There's no criticism of Phish.  Even on The Beatles or The Beach Boys contain criticism.  There's none here.  Not one trace.  And I like Phish.  And there's a ton of irrelevent information to the casual reader, about as much equal to, say, the Brian Wilson page (Which itself is hopelessly POV, and I've changed a few words from "realized" to "believed", etc. because mono mixing is not a "realization" as better than stereo, its an opinion, etc.).  Hence, also, fanboy.  I wrote on the discussion page.J. M. 07:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:Coal Black.JPG
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License tagging for Image:Knightmove.GIF
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Conservative_notice_board
Hello, I noticed that you identify as a conservative Wikipedian. So I would like to invite you to post any conservative issues you might have over at the new project page, Conservative_notice_board. Thanks. --Facto 05:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Iraq and the War on Terrorism
WOT has opened its straw poll, and is open to discussion. Rangeley 00:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding edits to Bruce Johnston
Thank you for contributing to Wikipedia, Jmw0000! However, your edit here was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove spam from Wikipedia. If you were trying to insert a good link, please accept my creator's apologies, but note that the link you added, matching rule smileysmile\.net, is on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. Please read Wikipedia's external links policy for more information. If the link was to an image, please read Wikipedia's image tutorial on how to use a more appropriate method to insert the image into an article. If your link was intended to promote a site you own, are affiliated with, or will make money from inclusion in Wikipedia, please note that inserting spam into Wikipedia is against policy. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! Shadowbot 07:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Virginia Tech massacre
Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent contribution removed content from. Please be more careful when editing articles and do not remove content from Wikipedia without a good reason, which should be specified in the edit summary. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment again, please use the sandbox. dcandeto 20:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Image:Knightmove.GIF
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Image:Knightmove.GIF
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ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jmw0000


text:
Bernard Georges

Bernard Georges (born March 29, 1965) is best known for his bass guitar work in Throwing Muses and 50 Foot Wave.

Beginning in 1992, he played bass for Throwing Muses on their album releases and in their concert appearances, having previously worked as roadie for the group. Georges has also played bass on recordings by Lakuna as well as by the Boston-based bands Fritter and Count Zero.

Since 2003, Georges has recorded and toured primarily with the California-based 50 Foot Wave. He also works on the side as a bicycle shop technician.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Bernard Georges


text:
Talk:Western Schism

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jkossmann.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:52, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments
I'm not an expert by any means, but I heard a piece on the radio (NPR Morning Edition April 15 2005 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4601440 ) that made me come here to look this up, and wikipedia has some problems on both this page and on the Pope Martin V page. According to what I heard on the radio, the church wound up with 3 popes for a time, and the issue was resolved with two of them abdicating, and the third being de-poped by the council. What is in this article and the Pope Martin V article is not consistent with either that or with each other, and what is meant is not particularly clear. Brassrat 15:41, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The term "abdicated"
I believe this term is not used in relation to popes and that the official term is simply "resigned". This is stated in the Catholic Church Hierarchy article on this site. Should someone change the Resolution section to reflect this? Thanks. 194.69.198.241 07:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Illuvater01

 * Papal abdication and The Catholic Encyclopedia beg to differ.  Plasticup  T / C  04:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

 * The 'official terminology' is in Latin, not in English. In 2013,  Benedict XVI used the term renuntiare, 'to renounce':  "Bene conscius sum hoc munus secundum suam essentiam spiritualem non solum agendo et loquendo exsequi debere, sed non minus patiendo et orando. Attamen in mundo nostri temporis rapidis mutationibus subiecto et quaestionibus magni ponderis pro vita fidei perturbato ad navem Sancti Petri gubernandam et ad annuntiandum Evangelium etiam vigor quidam corporis et animae necessarius est, qui ultimis mensibus in me modo tali minuitur, ut incapacitatem meam ad ministerium mihi commissum bene administrandum agnoscere debeam. Quapropter bene conscius ponderis huius actus plena libertate declaro me ministerio Episcopi Romae, Successoris Sancti Petri, mihi per manus Cardinalium die 19 aprilis MMV commisso renuntiare ita ut a die 28 februarii MMXIII, hora 20, sedes Romae, sedes Sancti Petri vacet et Conclave ad eligendum novum Summum Pontificem ab his quibus competit convocandum esse."  --Vicedomino (talk) 01:07, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

The Term Pope should refer to the line that was licitly elected
The title Pope is reserved for the licit holder of the office. The term Anti-pope is used by=ut doesn't fit.

I tried an edit, but I thought we may come up with a bettter term.

 * Then use pope, "pope", antipope if the wordage is that sensitive. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 09:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Obedience
The article states:

... France, Aragon, Burgundy, Savoy, Naples, and Scotland chose to recognize the Avignon claimant, while England, northern Italy, Scandinavia, and central Europe of the Holy Roman Empire followed the Roman claimant.

The part in bold makes no sense to me, grammtically or factually. The central European states of Poland and Hungary were not part of the Holy Roman Empire, and the map shows that parts of the Empire passed from one obedience to the other. I'll edit the sentence based on the info on the map. Feel free to make corrections. Appleseed 16:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I made some changes but more work needs to be done. In addition to the things mentioned above, the issue of areas passing from one obedience to another (e.g. Portugal) and the specifics of "northern Italy" also need to be addressed. Appleseed 17:27, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Maybe that refers to the Savoy? One of the antipopes was from Savoy. Dominick 21:28, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

What effect did the Council of Basel have, if any, on the Western Schism?
I was reading an article that was stating that the Avignon popes were struggling with the Council of Basel. Why?
 * The Council of Basel was in 1431, 16 years after the schism had ended. The only "Avignon pope" remaining was Jean Carrier, who had an insignificant following. It's likely that the article confused Basel with Constance. Djcastel 14:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Council of Basel was in some ways a continuation of the Council of Constance, which had elected Martin V as a sop to the Roman Patriarchal families from which many Popes had been drawn. The appointment of Eugenius IV saw the return to power of d'Ailly's acolytes at Constance, with Cusanus as Secretary of State and Dufay and van Eyck (less so) as "spin doctors" promoting the Church reforms d'Ailly had sold to Sigismund twenty years earlier. It's attempt to impose Papal superiority, continued in Florence, risked reopening the Schism, but was an essential first step in a process which would be complete by the end of the Century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.88.188 (talk) 22:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

From one obedience to another
I wrote the reason why Portugal passed from one obedience to another. Hope that helps, Appleseed.M.F.

Political history
The comments above demonstrate that without analysis of the historical political context, the phenomenon of the schism is opaque. --Wetman 05:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Copied from site
Most of this article seems to be copied from here: http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Western_Schism

Russia Moore 06:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, it's the other way around. Reference.com is one of many sites that scrape Wikipedia articles, though at least they give credit to Wikipedia at the bottom. Djcastel 14:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

"Even saints..."
The article says:
 * Even saints were caught up in the schism: St Catherine of Siena defended Urban's papacy, while St Vincent Ferrer was in Clement's camp.

Since neither of them were saints at the time, I don't think the descriptor is appropriate. You could say that supporters of both camps were later sainted, but not that "saints were caught up in the schism". Guettarda 17:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've removed the text from the article. Guettarda 04:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Suppression isn't the answer. Catherine of Siena's vocal support of Urban was a feature. Another supporter was John of Legnano: I've expanded his article and Urban VI's. Politics kept Richard II of England in the Roman camp. Urban's involvement with Naples, where there was fighting, is an element. This slender and superficial article does not begin to cover a major episode of medieval European history. Meanwhile quibbles bowdlerise even the few facts here. --Wetman 19:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Indeed. Why isn't the French interest in promoting Robert of Savoy specified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.88.188 (talk) 22:23, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The Great Schism according to school
I know, sometimes school teachings aren't accurate. But, here's the story on the Great Schism I heard in school.

"At this time the catholic church was corrupt, and the priests had not been following their duties as a priest, and were breaking their vows of poverty and celibacy, and a few others. After Gregory, Pope Urban VI was elected to be pope. He announced his goal to "clean up" the Catholic Church. The catholic priest and many other higher leaders did not want to be excommunicated from the church, and so it was agreed that they would tell the members of the Church that the pope was not mentally well (he was crazy). It was accepted, and so Urban was ignored. Another pope was elected, Pope Clement, but he moved back to France immediatly after being elected. So we had an unaccepted pope in Rome and a "real" pope in France."

So yeah, I'm not sure. But it was taught in school. And this did happen just before the Reformation, which would show that the church became at about this time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Burn N Flare (talk • contribs) 04:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

 * The fact that you use the term 'Reformation' suggests that you were taught the myth that you told (above) by instructors of the Protestant persuasion.  It is about as POV as one can get.--Vicedomino (talk) 01:11, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

'Great schism' or not?
Why at the start of the page does it say that this schism is not commonly called 'The Great Schism', when all the references listed call it exactly that? - 10 January 2008

 * One is almost tempted to say this is an ecclesiastical definition rather than an objective historical one. The breakdown in Papal authority almost aided the economies by freezing the tythes sent to the Papacy. A fairer term might be "Papal Schism", as there was no great breakdown in the Churches as a whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.88.188 (talk) 22:30, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

 * It might or might not be a 'fairer term' to use 'Papal Schism', but it is not the one used in the reference books, nor is it the one that users of Wikipedia would be looking for. That is a personal invention of terminology, and IMHO to be discouraged.  BTW, there were more than thirty schisms in the church up to that point, and they keep coming, e.g. the Polish National Catholic Church. The Wikipedia article Antipope has a collection of modern pretenders to the throne.  --Vicedomino (talk) 01:50, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Name misspelling
I corrected the misspelling of Pope Urban VI's birth name. The article said he was born Bartolomeo Prignani, when in fact he was born Bartolomeo Prignano. I am a descendant of the Prignano ancestry, so I noticed. - 14 January 2008 --Nprignano

Map error
That map is wrong. The part that it has marked as "Kingdom of Sweden" (in French) was actually part of Denmark at the time covered by the map. It also has the Isle of Man as Scottish rather than English, although that had ceased to be so some decades before the period of the map. Is there any way of correcting it? PMLawrence (talk) 10:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Too many errors, removing the map
I'm removing the map as it's full of errors. Navarre is shown as being part of Castille, Scania is shown as being part of Sweden, the English possessions in France are shown as being part of France and I'm sure there are other errors as well, though I'm only familiar with the ones listed. As map that is this inaccurate detracts from the quality of articles in which it's included. Jeppiz (talk) 14:34, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

The map as it stands lists the Kingdom of Grenada. Grenada is an island in the Carribean, the Kingdom of Granada was the kingdom in what is now Andalucia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.199.137 (talk) 15:08, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

One of our Anti-popes appear to be missing...
Antipope Clement VIII doesn't appear on the time line. His cession immediately prior to the Council of Tortosa in 1429 appears to be one of the key moments, along with the death of Antipope Benedict XIV in the same year, confirming the legitimacy of Pope Martin V. Thoughts? --Haruth (talk) 01:17, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

 * You have to stop somewhere...if you posted everyone who disagreed with a Pope as an Antipope - let alone getting mixed up in the question of Papal legitimacy - then the meme would be impossible. Was Urban legitimate? Not by Canon Law, Conclave having been broken. What about Eugenius' dissenters a decade later? Indeed, the idea of an Antipope is rather unhelpful, carrying unjustified apocalyptic overtones, when what we're really talking about are simply rival claimants to the Throne of St Peter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.88.188 (talk) 22:36, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Lasting consequences?
Were any matters of doctrine determined by a claimant, with another claimant making a contradictory determination? If so, which determination has subsequently been treated by the Vatican as definitive? If none, even that would be worth saying. JDAWiseman (talk) 13:23, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Weasel sentence
The following sentence in the article is a problem:  On April 8, 1378 the cardinals elected a Neapolitan when no viable Roman candidate presented himself.

Candidates do not present themselves, at least not until after they have been elected by the cardinals. Prignano was not a cardinal, and was not entitled to be present in the Conclave (and he wasn't), and thus could not present himself.

What is a "viable candidate"? The phrase is pure moonshine. It seeks to gloss over a very contentious two day period, in which threats of violence and actual violence were used repeatedly on the cardinals. The cardinals themselves contended that there was no valid election, and ten of them were experts in canon law.

--Vicedomino (talk) 16:56, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Factually untrue
I have a second problem with the sentence: On April 8, 1378 the cardinals elected a Neapolitan when no viable Roman candidate presented himself.

It is factually untrue. When the cardinals began voting, the first vote cast was cast by Cardinal Corsini for Cardinal Tebaldeschi, a Roman. This is clearly stated by Cardinal Hugues de Montelais (the Cardinal of Brittany) in his deposition:
 * Dominus de Florentia nominavit Cardinalem Sancti Petri, et Dominus Lemovicensis nominavit illum Barensem, et alii post eum. Et quando venit vox ad istum, noluit eum nominare iste Cardinalis. Imo dixit quod non cognoscebant eum sicut ipse. (Stephanus Baluzius [Étienne Baluze], Vitae Paparum Avinionensium Volume 1 (Paris: apud Franciscum Muguet 1693) column 1143)

It may also be mentioned that Cardinal Orsini, a Roman, refused to vote for anyone, due to the intimidation and violence of the Roman crowd.

--Vicedomino (talk) 17:03, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Another statement, contrary to the facts
The article states: "At the fifteenth session, 5 June 1409, the Council of Pisa attempted to depose both Pope and antipope as schismatical, heretical, perjured and scandalous, but it then added to the problem by electing a second antipope, Alexander V.'

This is wrong. The Council did not elect a second antipope. A Conclave was held, in which cardinals from both the Roman and the Avignon Obediences took part, and only cardinals took part, and they (not the Council) elected Pope Alexander V. He shouldn't be called "a second antipope". That's confusing. Call him "another antipope", if you must, but it has never been certain that he was an antipope.

--Vicedomino (talk) 22:22, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Article name and alignments
1. I understand this schism has multiple names but since it has to do with the popes it makes sense to say Papal Schism rather than Western Schism. It's more appropriate and reflective of the substance. The article should use Papal Schism.

2. If the Teutonic Order aligned with all three papal factions over time then it should appear in all three columns rather than just under the Roman column. Having England, Ireland, Denmark and Norway listed under Rome and Pisa without dates does not make sense. Having Poland and Hungary listed under Rome and Pisa with dates only for the second does not make sense. France, Naples, Portugal and the Holy Roman Empire in different columns with dates missing is also not a good approach.

ICE77 (talk) 03:40, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

"Timeline" and "Recognition"
Aren't summary visuals like these supposed to be at the end of the article? They certainly detract from reading when placed at the beginning of the article (especially considering users who view through smartphones). The "recognition" section wrongly implies that the states named chose sides at the beginning of a schism that lasted from 1378 to 1417 (and later), and that they did not subsequently change sides again (England, at the Council of Pisa, for example; or the Kingdom of Naples in 1379 and again in 1389, with royalty, aristocracy, and municipalities engaged in a dizzying dance of death). The insertion of "earlier" and "later" is no help chronologically, and messy in a chart. It also does not allow for neutrality. And it is dead wrong in putting "the Italian city-states" all in the Roman column. Some were, some weren't, some changed sides (especially following the death of Urban VI).

--Vicedomino (talk) 14:48, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

 * I know this is a very late reply, but I agree, I am not sure why the timeline section is even present at all in this article, for now I just tagged it with an empty section notice, perhaps if consensus is reached on here we can remove it? Aliy Dawut (talk) 15:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I was only vaguely familiar with the arc of the schism, so seeing the timeline up front helped me. I don't see a general policy about placement here: Timeline, but I don't have strong opinions either way. Unclevinny (talk) 01:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I am not quite sure either Aliy Dawut (talk) 14:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

John XXIII ruled in ~1950-60s.
"The schism was finally resolved when the Pisan pope John XXIII called the Council of Constance (1414–1418)." 98.144.238.191 (talk) 22:24, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * There are two John XXIII's. Al-Muqanna (talk) 11:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * This article refers to antipope John XXIII Aliy Dawut (talk) 15:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Subjective claim - "morality"
From Aftermath: "There was also a marked decline in morality and discipline within the church". Morality is too subjective to be quantified. Holds too much bias, and I believe it carries enough weight to affect topic neutrality. Removed and altered to "There was also a marked decline in discipline within the church". Vacant Handle (talk) 02:01, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Why do you believe it holds “too much bias” exactly? Aliy Dawut (talk) 15:22, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Church or Latin Church rather than just “Catholic”
Hello, I am posting this talk page section because it seems there may be confusion as to what the schism actually affected. Shouldn’t it be more specifically mentioned that it was a schism within the “Roman Catholic Church” or “Latin Church” specifically and not just the “Catholic Church”? The article doesn’t seem to mention the schism affecting Eastern Catholic (e.g. the Maronite Church) whatsoever. thanks for your time Aliy Dawut (talk) 06:21, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

 * This is an encyclopedia article, not a complete treatise on the schism. Noel Valois did that (more or less), and his effort came to four volumes.  Are you looking to start fights, Aily Dawut?? Vicedomino (talk) 07:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Now now, accusing someone of “looking to start fights” when they’re simply looking to improve the scope and accuracy of an article isn’t very nice, now is it? Aliy Dawut (talk) 00:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Please remember, WP:AGF. Aliy Dawut (talk) 00:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Major issues in the “Recognition” section
Hello again, although this is a great idea for a section and helps shed light on who supported who and is satisfying to read. There are a few major issues that need addressed. First of all, the Kingdom of Naples supported the Avignon Popes to the end and did not switch to Rome at the beginning of the 15th century as it is said there. They were ruled by a French-origin dynasty at this time, thus remaining steadfast to the Avignon Papacy. Second of all, the Teutonic Order supported the Roman Pope from the beginning to the end, aligning with the Emperor and their Crusading Valour. Finally, for the Roman support, it states “Italian city states” but then goes onto list Venice, Genoa, and the Papal States as separate. Aliy Dawut (talk) 15:05, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

 * For now, I have made the changes I best see fit, if I made any mistakes feel free to discuss and correct. Thank you Aliy Dawut (talk) 16:05, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I returned your deleted flags of the House of Savoy. Clement VII (Avignon) was a descendent of Amadeus V of Savoy, and the County supported him in the Schism. I supplied a reference, showing that your deletion was incorrect. Vicedomino (talk) 21:10, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn’t know. Thanks for your correction then Aliy Dawut (talk) 23:51, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * also, what do you think about using the term “Hungary-Croatia”? I personally feel that it should simply be “Hungary” as Croatia was firmly under Hungarian overlordship by the late 14th century and was not de facto a separate entity by that point Aliy Dawut (talk) 23:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Pisan pope recognition section
No sources or explanation provided whatsoever that state any country besides France in 1409 onwards aligned with the Pisan papacy, it especially doesn’t make sense given that natural enemies of France such as England and other firmly-Rome aligned states were listed; suggesting that they supported the Pisan papacy at the same time as France, however, if I am wrong, please feel free to correct me with sources and an explanation. Aliy Dawut (talk) 19:18, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

 * According to "Studying Late Medieval History: A Thematic Approach", Cindy Wood, page 22,"As before, the different countries in Europe supported different candidates; for example, Italians supported John XXIII, while England, Germany and France wanted all three popes to resign and for a new election altogether."
 * There is also a note in Henry IV, Chris Given-Wilson, page 421, Henry IV's illegitimate son, Edmund Leborde was given dispensation c.1412 so as to join holy orders. On page 511, Henry denies John XXIII's request for Clarence to come to Italy and fight for him(winter 1412-1413). Thoughts? --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the quick reply, I thought I was never going to get any good insight on this lol, anyways, I am not quite sure myself what to make of that… it seems rather vague and certainly not conclusive/definitive… although I do know that right know the Pisan pope support section looks like sort of a mess to put it kindly. What do you think is the best course of action for now? Aliy Dawut (talk) 22:22, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Unless something definitive is produced, I would use the Wood source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:07, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I understand, however, the Wood source does not appear to support any of the aforementioned nations other than France and only makes very vague references. In my opinion, at least now, all nations should be removed from the Pisan support section except France until something definitive/strong is brought forth like you said, what do you think? Aliy Dawut (talk) 06:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)rat
 * DON'T go removing things, particularly well-known factual statements. Rather, go out and find references. They are out there. WP does not require that every fact be footnoted. WP is a work-in-progress. Vicedomino (talk) 07:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I understand the latter part of your statement, however, as I said, are these really well-known factual statements? I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying I have researched this topic quite extensively and haven’t been able to locate any other source/website/article etc that discusses the Pisan pope support other than France in 1409… Aliy Dawut (talk) 15:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Any other thoughts / suggestions? Aliy Dawut (talk) 18:13, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * See below.

They are indeed well-known facts. To start, look at: Most of these can be found easily on Google Books. Vicedomino (talk) 18:15, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * F. Gregorovius, History of Rome in the Middle Ages, Volume VI. 2 second edition, revised (London: George Bell, 1906), pp. 510-524.
 * Ludwig Pastor, The History of the Popes Vol. 1, third edition (London: Kegan Paul 1906), pp. 127-141.
 * Noël Valois, "Le Grand Schisme en Allemagne (1378-1380)," Romische Quartalschrift 7 (1892), 107-164.
 * S. Steinherz, "Das Schisma von 1378 und die Haltung Karl's IV.," Mittheilungen des Instituts für österreichischen Geschichtsforschung 21 (1900) 599-639.
 * Walter Ullmann, The Origins of the Great Schism: A Study in Fourteenth-Century Ecclesiastical History (London 1948; Hamden CT: Archon Books 1967).

 * Ok, I will take a look Aliy Dawut (talk) 06:30, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Recent citation and clarification requests inserted
In case anybody wants to help with this, it would be appreciated. Thanks Aliy Dawut (talk) 23:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Western Schism


text:
File:Liverpool garden festival mug.jpg

Commemorative coffee mug from the Liverpool Garden Festival showing the Liver bird.

Hereby released under the GFDL by the photographer, User:Richard W.M. Jones

title: File:Liverpool garden festival mug.jpg


text:
Gré Brouwenstijn

Gré Brouwenstijn (born Gerda Demphina: 26 August 1915 in Den Helder – 14 December 1999 in Amsterdam) was a Dutch soprano singer whose stage career spanned from the early 1940s to the mid-1970s.

Career
She studied voice at the Amsterdam Muzieklyceum, with Jaap Stroomenbergh, Boris Pelsky and Ruth Horna. She made her operatic début in 1940 as the First Lady in The Magic Flute. Brouwenstijn then became a member of the Hilversum Radio Choir, later performing as a soloist in operatic broadcasts. In 1946, she joined the Netherlands Opera, where she made her debut as Giulietta in Les contes d'Hoffmann.

In 1949, Brouwenstijn made her debut at the Holland Festival as Leonora in Il Trovatore, the beginning of a long association. In subsequent years, she sang Reiza (Oberon), Jenůfa, Amelia, Donna Anna, Desdemona, the Countess, Tatyana, Leonora (La forza del destino), Senta, Iphigénie (Iphigénie en Tauride), and Leonore (Fidelio) at the Festival.

Brouwenstijn was above all associated with the role of Leonore in Beethoven's Fidelio. Considered one of the finest Leonores of her time, she performed the role to great acclaim at the Vienna State Opera, the Paris Opera, Stuttgart, Berlin, Amsterdam, Buenos Aires, London, and Glyndebourne.

In 1951, Brouwenstijn made her debut at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden as Aida (in English), conducted by Sir John Barbirolli. Her Berlin debut in 1954 caused "something of a sensation"; the critic praised her "phrasing in Italian opera". In 1955, under Rafael Kubelík, she sang Desdemona. In 1958, she sang Elisabetta in a famous production of Don Carlos designed by Luchino Visconti and conducted by Carlo Maria Giulini. In 1958 she sang Leonore at the Teatro Colón in a production of Fidelio conducted by Thomas Beecham.

From 1954 to 1956, she appeared at Bayreuth, as Elisabeth, Freia, Sieglinde, Gutrune and Eva. Two Wagnerian roles she performed elsewhere, Senta and Elsa, she never performed there, however, due to a breach in 1957 with the Wagner family.

Brouwenstijn's roles at La Monnaie in Brussels were Chrysothemis in Elektra, the Marschallin in Der Rosenkavalier, Elisabeth in Tannhäuser and Sieglinde in Die Walküre. At the Paris Opera she appeared as Leonore in Fidelio in 1955 and Elisabeth in Don Carlos in 1960. In 1959, she made her American debut as Jenůfa at the Lyric Opera of Chicago.

She made her farewell appearance singing Leonore, with the Netherlands Opera in 1971.

Brouwenstijn was married twice; from 1948 to 1953 to tenor Jan van Mantgem, and from 1954 until her death to former tennis player and TV doctor Hans van Swol. Gré Brouwenstijn died in 1999 at age 84 in Amsterdam and was buried at Zorgvlied cemetery.

Recording
Of published opera recordings, many are taken from live performances; her studio recordings include Un ballo in maschera (excerpts), Der Freischütz (excerpts), Tiefland and Die Walküre, beside Beethoven’s 9th Symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra under André Cluytens. Tove in Gurre-Lieder is preserved as part of an Edinburgh performance in 1961 under Leopold Stokowski.

Quote
Dutch music critic Paul Korenhof wrote of Brouwenstijn:
 * Her gifts were even more evident in seemingly passive roles such as Verdi’s two Leonoras (Il Trovatore and La Forza del destino) and Desdemona. When Gré Brouwenstijn sang these roles, she was more than a soprano who sang her arias beautifully but was otherwise little more than a decorative element in the drama being presented by the tenor and baritone. As a contemporary of Callas, Olivero, Rysanek, Varnay and Mödl and influenced by many great conductors and directors of the fifties, she realized that beautiful singing alone did not make an opera, but that the singing must emanate from the character being portrayed.

title: Gré Brouwenstijn


text:
Talk:Black Mask (radical group)

I moved the content from this article to Up Against the Wall Motherfuckers. --Myles Long 15:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Black Mask (radical group)


text:
Todor Aleksandrov

Todor Aleksandrov Poporushov, best known as Todor Alexandrov (Bulgarian/Macedonian: Тодор Александров), also spelt as Alexandroff (4 March 1881 – 31 August 1924), was a Bulgarian revolutionary, army officer, politician and teacher. He favored initially the annexation of Macedonia to Bulgaria,  but later switched to the idea of an Independent Macedonia as a second Bulgarian state on the Balkans. Alexandrov was a member of the Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organisation (IMARO) and later of the Central Committee of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation (IMRO).

In North Macedonia, Aleksandrov, who was previously dismissed by the post-WWII Yugoslav Macedonian historiography as a controversial Bulgarophile and national traitor, was added to the country's historical heritage as an ethnic Macedonian. Though, this has caused political and public controversies.

Biography
Aleksandrov was born in Novo Selo, Kosovo vilayet, the Ottoman Empire (present-day suburb of Štip, North Macedonia) to Aleksandar Poporushev and Marija Aleksandrova. In 1898, he finished the Bulgarian Pedagogical School in Skopje and became a Bulgarian teacher consecutively in the towns of Kočani, Kratovo, the village of Vinica, and Štip. He attended the Bulgarian Men's High School of Thessaloniki.

In 1903, Aleksandrov distinguished himself as an extraordinary leader and organizer of the Kočani Revolutionary District. He was arrested by the Ottoman authorities on 3 March 1903 and sent to Skopje under enforced police escort during the same night. He was sentenced to five years of solitary confinement by the extraordinary court there. In April 1904, he was released after an amnesty. Soon afterwards, he was appointed a head teacher in the Second high-school in Štip. Aleksandrov, in co-operation with Todor Lazarov and Mishe Razvigorov, worked day and night to organize the Štip Revolutionary District. The results of his activities were detected by the Ottoman authorities and in November 1904 he was forbidden to teach. On 10 January 1905, Aleksandrov's house was surrounded by a numerous troops but he succeeded in breaking through the military cordoned and immediately joined the cheta (band) of Mishe Razvigorov where he became its secretary. Aleksandrov attended the First Congress of the Skopje Revolutionary Region as a delegate from the Štip district. His deteriorating health lead him to become a teacher in Bulgaria — the Black Sea town of Burgas in 1906, but after learning about the death of Mishe Razvigorov, he abandoned his work as a teacher and returned to Macedonia at once. In November 1907, Aleksandrov was elected as a district vojvoda (commander) by the Third Congress of the Skopje Revolutionary District.

On 2 August 1909, the Ottomans made another attempt to arrest him but failed again. In the spring of 1910, he and his cheta traversed the Skopje region and organized the revolutionary activities. In early 1911, Aleksandrov became a member of the Central Committee of the IMARO. In 1912, he became a vojvoda in the Kilkis and Thessaloniki districts where he carried out a number of sabotages against Ottoman targets, facilitating this way the Bulgarian cause in the First Balkan War. He supported the Bulgarian Army.

In 1913, he was at the headquarters of the Third brigade of the Macedonian Militia in the Bulgarian army. After 1913 he organized the IMARO resistance against other nationalities, such as Serbs and Greeks. With the inclusion of Bulgaria in the First World War in October 1915, Todor Alexandrov was mobilized. At that time, the structures of the Military Defense Forces completely merged into the structure of the Bulgarian army. Aleksandrov himself made considerable efforts to organize the administration in the territories occupied by Sabia. On 4 November 1919, Aleksandrov was arrested by the government of Aleksandar Stamboliyski but he succeeded to escape nine days later. In the spring of 1920, Aleksandrov went with a cheta to Vardar Macedonia where he restored the revolutionary organization and attracted the world's attention to the unsolved Macedonian question. At the end of 1922, there was a bounty of 250,000 dinars placed on him by the Serbian authorities in Belgrade.

In 1924 IMRO entered negotiations with the Comintern about collaboration between the communists and the creation of a united Macedonian movement. The idea for a new unified organization was supported by the Soviet Union, which saw a chance for using this well developed revolutionary movement to spread revolution in the Balkans and destabilize the Balkan monarchies. Alexandrov defended IMRO's independence and refused to concede on practically all points requested by the Communists. No agreement was reached besides a paper "Manifesto" (the so-called May Manifesto of 6 May 1924), in which the objectives of the unified Macedonian liberation movement were presented: independence and unification of partitioned Macedonia, fighting all the neighbouring Balkan monarchies, forming a Balkan Communist Federation and cooperation with the Soviet Union.

Failing to secure Alexandrov's cooperation, the Comintern decided to discredit him and published the contents of the Manifesto on 28 July 1924 in the "Balkan Federation" newspaper. Todor Aleksandrov and Aleksandar Protogerov promptly denied through the Bulgarian press that they have ever signed any agreements, claiming that the May Manifesto was a communist forgery. Shortly after, Alexandrov was assassinated in unclear circumstances, when a member in his cheta shot him on 31 August 1924 in the Pirin Mountains. He had a wife called Vangelia and two children (Alexander and Maria; a strong proponent of her father's ideals and IMRO's charter).

View about the Macedonian Question
IMRO and Alexandrov himself aimed at an autonomous Macedonia, with its capital at Salonika and prevailing Macedonian Bulgarian element. He took into consideration the decomposition of Greece and the incorporation into the autonomous Macedonia of the Macedonian territory which was under the Greek dominion. The part of Macedonia which was in Bulgaria was also foreseen to be incorporated into the autonomous Macedonia. His view does not indicate any doubt about the Bulgarian ethnic character of Macedonian Slavs then.

Legacy
The Macedonian historiography in the Yugoslav era regarded Aleksandrov as part of a group of "bulgarianized renegades of the Macedonian revolutionary and liberation movement". After the independence of present-day North Macedonia, efforts were made by Macedonian politicians and historians to rehabilitate Aleksandrov. Most Macedonian historians have regarded him as "the biggest traitor to the Macedonian cause" due to his pro-Bulgarian views for a long time, while other historians have called him out for his alleged involvement in many assassinations of other VMRO members and other political and military figures of the time. On the other hand, other historians have referred to him as "the soul and the brain of the Macedonian resistance" and as "Macedonia’s Robin Hood", attributing to him remarkable organizational skills and will.

A local association of Bulgarians raised a monument of the revolutionary on 2 February 2008 in the city of Veles. After the local administration refused to provide a place for the bust, it was raised in the yard of a local Bulgarian resident. In the following night the resident received a number of threats and the monument was twice thrown down by unknown individuals. Soon after, the monument was removed at the insistence of local authorities, as an unlawful construction. This incident caused Bulgarian president Georgi Parvanov to call upon the Macedonian government to review the history of Alexandrov's deeds on his meeting with Branko Crvenkovski in the town of Sandanski.

In June 2012, a new statue called “Macedonian Equestrian Revolutionary” was erected in Skopje. As a consequence, an outcry among older residents erupted almost immediately when they noted the anonymous rider’s similarity to the historical figure. Earlier the same month the opposition Social Democrats took to the streets to protest the changing of hundreds of street names, including a bridge that was to be named after Aleksandrov. In October, a few months after the setting of the monument, on it appeared a board with the name of Todor Aleksandrov.

In the spring of 2021, the new Skopje municipal council majority by the Social Democratic Union of Macedonia decided to rename the names of many local sites. Thus, the bridge named after Alexandrov and the street named after the organization he led - IMRO, were renamed. The former Skopje Mayor from VMRO-DPMNE Koce Trajanovski reacted that his successor Petre Šilegov has deleted part from the Macedonian history at the request of Bulgaria.

Honours
Aleksandrov Peak on Graham Land, Antarctica is named after Todor Aleksandrov.

title: Todor Aleksandrov


text:
Talk:Naseer Shamma

Untitled
Is the village of Kut mentinoed in this article the same as the article Kut. If so it's hardly a village (pop. 400,000) -- Mariocki 15:45, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

its the same, BUT, the population numbers of that article is circa 2003. he was born in '63, back then, it WAS a village.

 * He seems to meet #6 of WP:MUSIC, but it's iffy. Karmafist 15:44, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

References desperately needed- inconsistencies in facts raises serious questions about the accuracy of the entire article
Someone has already pointed out that this article is in desperate need of references. Here is an example of why those references are essential:

The article claims that;
 * "Music reading with the participation of the artist Aziz Khyoun in the Federation of Iraqi Writers, where he presented the Stranger on the Gulf and Rain Song to the great poet Badr Shakir al-Sayyab in 1986."

This claim is truly remarkable since the great poet, al-Sayyab, died in 1964, 12 years before this performance supposedly took place!!!! In fact, the article's subject, Nasser Shamma, was born in 1963, so he would have to have been just one year old when he supposedly composed these two poems and gave this performance during the great Iraqi poet's lifetime. In light of these inconsistencies, readers are left wondering whether this is a typographical error, or whether the entire thing is a fabrication? But sadly, in the absence of any reference, there is no way to check this out.

And, if the article can get it so wrong in this passage, then surely it raises serious doubts about the accuracy of the entire piece. BronHiggs (talk) 00:34, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Naseer Shamma


text:
Henry Litolff

Henry Charles Litolff (6 February 1818 – 5 August 1891) was a French and British virtuoso pianist, composer of Romantic music, and music publisher born in London. A prolific composer, he is today known mainly for a single brief work – the scherzo from his Concerto Symphonique No. 4 in D minor – and remembered as the founder of the Collection Litolff (today part of Edition Peters), a highly regarded publishing imprint of classical music scores.

Biography
Litolff was born in London in 1818 to a Scottish mother, Sophie (née Hayes), and a father, Martin Louis Litolff, from Alsace. The father, a violinist, had been previously taken prisoner of war while serving as a band musician in the Napoleonic army during the Peninsular War.

His father taught the boy Henry the rudiments of music, and in 1830, when he was twelve, he played for the renowned virtuoso pianist Ignaz Moscheles, who was so impressed that he gave him free lessons starting that same year. Litolff began to concertize when he was fourteen. His lessons with Moscheles continued until in 1835, at the age of 17, Litolff abruptly married 16-year-old Elisabeth Etherington. The couple moved to Melun, and then to Paris.

He separated from Elisabeth in 1839 and moved to Brussels. Around 1841, Litolff moved to Warsaw, where he is believed to have conducted the Teatr Narodowy (National Theatre) orchestra. In 1844 he travelled to Germany, gave concerts, and taught the future pianist-conductor Hans von Bülow.

The following year, Litolff returned to England with the idea of finally divorcing Elisabeth; but the plan backfired and he ended up not only heavily fined but imprisoned. He managed to escape and flee to the Netherlands – the escape said to have been accomplished with the assistance of the jailer's daughter.

Litolff became friends with the music publisher Gottfried Meyer of Braunschweig (English: Brunswick), Germany; and, after Meyer's death, he married the widow Julie in 1851 (having finally been granted a divorce from Elisabeth as a new citizen of Brunswick). Whilst married to Julie, the publishing firm G. M. Meyer (which she had been running successfully, and which was to become Litolff) grew substantially. This second marriage lasted until 1858, when he divorced her and once again moved to Paris. After the divorce, the publishing firm was run by Litolff's adoptive son, Theodor Litolff (1839–1912). In Paris he found a third wife, Louise de La Rochefoucauld; and, upon her death in 1873, a fourth (who had previously nursed him through an illness). Litolff died at Bois-Colombes, near Paris, in 1891, just short of his seventy-third birthday.

Works
His most notable works were the five concertos symphoniques, essentially symphonies with piano obbligato. The first one, in D minor, is lost; the others (not in the concert repertoire, but available in modern recordings) are:

 * Concerto Symphonique No. 2 in B minor, Op. 22 (1844)
 * Concerto Symphonique No. 3 in E-flat major, Op. 45 (c. 1846)
 * Concerto Symphonique No. 4 in D minor, Op. 102 (c. 1852)
 * Concerto Symphonique No. 5 in C minor, Op. 123 (c. 1867)

The only one of Litolff's compositions still performed at all regularly is the somewhat Mendelssohnian scherzo from the Fourth Concerto Symphonique, although his music was admired by Franz Liszt and he was the dedicatee of Liszt's own First Piano Concerto. Tingyue Jiang began recording some of his solo piano music in 2023.

Litolff's Drame symphonique No. 1 Maximilien Robespierre, Op. 55, was one of the works conducted on Christmas Eve 1925 by Yuri Fayer at the Bolshoi Theatre in Moscow to accompany the world's first showing of Sergei Eisenstein's film Battleship Potemkin.

title: Henry Litolff


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Black Mask

Black Mask may refer to:

 * Black Mask (magazine), a pulp magazine launched in 1920 by H. L. Mencken and George Jean Nathan
 * Black Mask (film), a 1996 movie starring Jet Li, based on the manhua of same name by Li Chi-Tak
 * Black Mask 2: City of Masks, 2002 sequel movie to the 1996 film
 * Black Mask (anarchists), the original name of the situationist group later known as Up Against the Wall Motherfuckers
 * Black Mask (character), a foe of the Batman in the DC Comics universe
 * Blackmask (comic book), a three issue mini-series from DC Comics set in the 1950s
 * Black Mask Studios, a comic book and graphic novel publishing company
 * The Black Mask, a 1905 collection of short stories by E. W. Hornung concerning the gentleman thief A. J. Raffles
 * The Black Mask (1935 film), a British crime film directed by Ralph Ince
 * The Black Mask (1952 film), an Italian historical adventure film
 * Black Mask, a character in Hikari Sentai Maskman
 * Black Mask, a minor character in Mad Max: Fury Road

title: Black Mask


text:
File:Coat of arms of the College de Montreal.png

Summary
Coat of arms of the Collège de Montréal


text: User talk:164.58.252.54

title: User talk:164.58.252.54


text:
Intimate Relations (1996 film)

Intimate Relations is a 1996 Canadian-British film, the first movie by writer and director Philip Goodhew. It stars Rupert Graves, Julie Walters and a fifteen-year-old Laura Sadler, the only feature film in her short career. The film is a drama and black comedy about a young man who has an affair with the middle-aged housewife he is lodging with. Matters are soon complicated when the housewife's teenage daughter gets involved after developing a crush on the young lodger.

The film takes place in the 1950s in the suburbs of London. The film depicts the hypocritically prudish residents of a seemingly respectable household who, behind closed doors, indulge in the sort of sordid goings on they would publicly sneer at.

Plot
Marjorie Beaslie is a housewife in her forties who takes in a lodger named Harold Guppey, who has just stumbled into town to look up his long-lost brother. Although seemingly prudish (she no longer sleeps in the same bed as her husband, for "medical reasons"), Marjorie takes a liking to Harold despite him being a good twenty years her junior, and they begin to have a clandestine affair. Marjorie insists that Harold refer to her as "mum", giving more than a little oedipal slant to their lustful antics.

Marjorie's youngest daughter is fourteen-year-old Joyce, a precocious girl who alternates between trying to act grown up by putting on make up and smoking cigarettes, and acting childish by disturbing people with tales of medieval punishments and giggling at rude words.

Joyce is fascinated by Harold and with her teasing behaviour she cunningly turns him from being apathetic towards her to being intrigued. When Joyce catches Harold and Marjorie in bed together, she seemingly does not realise what they are up to and merely thinks they're having an innocent "bunk up". She talks her way into getting into the bed with them. Harold and Marjorie continue their intimate relations whilst Joyce pretends to be asleep, realising what is actually going on.

A few days later, Joyce blackmails Harold into taking her to a hotel for the night, where he turns the tables on her with every intent and purpose but actually diverts his attention by doing much the opposite as he seduces her before spurning her.

Marjorie's much-older husband, Stanley, is a one-legged World War I veteran who sleeps in a separate room and is oblivious to Harold's relationships with either Marjorie or Joyce, as is the rest of their suburban community.

Sick of being caught between a mother and daughter, who are too old and too young for him respectively, Harold tries to get out of the house and move away by joining the army and getting a new girlfriend. However, Marjorie manages to emotionally blackmail him into coming back. One day, Harold takes Marjorie and Joyce out for a picnic, although things are tense between the trio. Having sent her daughter Joyce away to play, Marjorie begins to ravish Harold, but Joyce returns and hits her mother with an axe. Harold panics and attempts to get Marjorie into the car to take her to hospital but, with blood streaming down her face, Marjorie manages to pick up a knife Harold drops and attacks him with it. Harold fights Marjorie off and stabs her to death. Joyce then tries to attack Harold and he stabs her to death too. Finally, Harold stabs himself in the stomach in an attempt to emphasise that his actions were out of self-defence.

It is said in a post-script that he, the real Albert Goozee, was sentenced to death for Joyce's murder.

Cast

 * Julie Walters as Marjorie Beasley
 * Rupert Graves as Harold Guppey
 * Laura Sadler as Joyce Beasley
 * Matthew Walker as Stanley Beasley
 * Les Dennis as Maurice Guppey
 * Amanda Holden as Pamela
 * Michael Bertenshaw as Mr Pugh
 * Elsie Kelly as Enid
 * Nicholas Hoult as Bobby

Inspiration
The film is based on the true story of Albert Goozee, who was put on trial in 1956 in England. He was arrested after his 53-year-old landlady, Mrs. Lydia Leakey, and her 14-year-old daughter, Norma, were found dead. Goozee was tried only for the murder of the teenaged girl (Joyce, in the movie), convicted and imprisoned for life. The movie follows Goozee's own version of events, portraying him as an increasingly desperate young man caught in a love triangle between a mother and daughter, although as the only survivor there is no way of verifying if his version of the events was entirely truthful.

Goozee was released from prison in 1971 but was imprisoned again in 1996, the year Intimate Relations came out, for unrelated sex offences.

Reception
In a review that awarded 2 stars out of 4, Roger Ebert wrote, "'Intimate Relations' is about the same sort of repressed sexual goofiness that found an outlet in 'Heavenly Creatures,' that New Zealand film about the two close friends who committed murder together, or 'The Young Poisoner's Handbook' about the earnest young man whose chemistry experiments went entirely too far. Its deadpan humor is entertaining, up to a point, but that point is passed before the movie is quite at its halfway point, and then we’re left watching increasingly desperate people who are trapped by one another’s madness."

title: Intimate Relations (1996 film)


text:
Talk:UK hardcore

Stop deleting
Feel free to shorten the artists, events and labels list. But do not blatantly delete it (that includes the exernal links and bottom section!)

 * Why not? Do you think the article really benefits from having a huge list of DJs and MCs, 99% of whom aren't even notorious enough to have their own wikipedia page?  The links section was pretty much just people advertising their own websites - sites like ush/DSI/hh.com deserve to be there, but links to promotors should not.

 * Guys, I think we should create a seperate page to list all producers who have had at least one release on a major UK Hardcore label, same for Vocalists and one for major UK Hardcore labels with a link to their discogs page. I tried doing it but fail at wiki's tables ;c someone do this and link to them in the main article? - KO9 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.227.11 (talk) 23:54, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

 * I know it's a bit late, but I second the notion for removing the Notable Artists section altogether and perhaps working some key names into the main body. Otherwise the Notable Artists needs a serious pruning. 3Form (talk) 00:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

--Revolt 21:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
This was a quick knock up but gives a rough idea. It needs some work and more details. It should tone about happy hardcore being mocked - needs a NPOV - or at least explain (specifically relates to the late 1990s stuff) - and use various cites etc. Thanks --Revolt 21:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Urgh....
What an awful article. Endless lists of DJs, MCs, labels and events....most of which are no-name or so minor that it's obvious that someone added them to big themselves up a bit. I trimmed out a lot of the shit, but that whole section should be removed really....especially because almost every name listed didn't have a linked page anyway.

 * Agreed, it just reads like one big advert at the moment; I removed a lot of those artists out too a while ago (including my own name!) but they seem to have all crept back in again. It's full of mistakes too; Darwin is most certainly not Australian, and most of those artists listed in the Japan section aren't what would be considered UK hardcore. *sigh* JAKAZiD (talk) 00:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Josh, you are signed to one of the big UK Hardcore labels, you deserve to be on the list IMO. 81.104.227.11 (talk) 10:15, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

hardcore
warning about too long an intro can be removed?

Sounds like an advert for a very poor music genre. An absolute disgrace. Very piss poor article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.157.247.210 (talk) 11:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

its three lines O.o

it is abit pants, theres alot more that could be said and the list takes up half the page. maybe the list could be a seporate article with a link at the bottom to it? also much more should be written about the history of uk hardcore and another section should explain the extent of uk hardcore today. practically the whole thing needs to be re-written as i think its too brief and practically ignores the 21 century revival and the fact than uk hardcore was reinvented after the so called "death of hardcore" and so on. does anyone agree? 77.99.147.90 (talk) 21:06, 5 January 2009 (UTC)crazy dave

AKA 'upfront hardcore' ???
just my 2pence worth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.182.92 (talk) 00:37, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

UK hardcore and Happy hardcore
Someone with specific knowledge on the matter (not me, unfortunately) should expand on the connection a bit more, otherwise I propose that the relevant information from this article be merged into the "Happy hardcore" article as a subsection. (They're not quite parent/child or sibling genres, but they're not the same thing, either.) --Zarggg (talk) 14:16, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Not encyclopedic
This article reads more like a fan page than an encyclopedia article. Unsourced statements, events, DJs, general opinions and unencyclopedic language ("Nowadays"? really?). Not NPOV, speculates that UK Hardcore is inevitably going to increase in popularity when there is no evidence of this. There has been a citation tag on this article since March 2007. I'm going to go ahead and be bold and remove the unencyclopedic content. 12.220.128.10 (talk) 22:12, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:UK hardcore


text: User talk:68.0.194.116

title: User talk:68.0.194.116


text: User talk:69.196.197.84

title: User talk:69.196.197.84


text:
I Mother Earth

I Mother Earth, or IME, is a Canadian rock band. The band formed in 1990 and reached its peak in popularity in the mid-to-late 1990s. After an eight-year hiatus, the band reunited in 2012. Between 1996 and 2016, I Mother Earth was among the top 150 best-selling Canadian artists in Canada and among the top 40 best-selling Canadian bands in Canada.

Early years
The brother duo of drummer Christian and guitarist Jagori Tanna met vocalist Edwin at their shared rehearsal space in 1990. Edwin asked the brothers to form a band with him, and the three came together in 1991, taking on Franz Masini as a bass player. The band came up with the name IME, as in "I Am Me", but later decided the letters should stand for something. Jag Tanna ad-libbed the name I Mother Earth and has always insisted it has no special meaning. The band, represented by a professionally recorded five-song demo, played a mere thirteen shows over the next year. These were noted for their jam sessions, poetry readings, and murals painted in the background during the songs. At the end of the year, the band was in the middle of a bidding war between labels.

Success
In 1992, I Mother Earth signed to a co-venture deal brokered between Capitol Records (U.S.) and its Canadian affiliate, EMI Music Canada. The band travelled to Los Angeles in 1992 to record its debut album with former Guns N' Roses producer Mike Clink. During these sessions, Franz Masini was fired, leaving Jag Tanna to re-record the bass parts himself. At the completion of the album, Masini was replaced by Bruce Gordon, whose band Rocktopus was breaking up at that time. With the lineup solidified, the band underwent an intensive international tour to support its debut, Dig, in mid-1993. Considered an anomaly in the "alternative" era and often mistaken for heavy metal, the album combined traditional hard rock with grooves, extended jams, psychedelic lyrics, and the Latin-based percussion of Luis Conte and Armando Borg. Dig spawned four singles, three of which originated from IME's demo tape and were later included on the proper album. "Rain Will Fall", "Not Quite Sonic" and "Levitate" were released in 1993, and "So Gently We Go" was released in the summer of 1994. All four garnered radio and video airplay in Canada, as well as rotations in the U.S. and Europe. The latter two singles in particular charted well on Canadian rock radio. The Dig album won a Juno Award in 1994 for Best Hard Rock Album, beating out IME's childhood idols Rush for the award. This cemented a long relationship between the two bands, which started with IME opening for Rush the night after the Junos. By the end of the album's run, Dig was a Gold record in Canada.

After the exhaustive touring ended, IME ended up in different studios in Toronto and Morin Heights, Quebec in 1995. In these studios, the band worked on its second album, co-produced by Jag Tanna and Paul Northfield, who was most noted for producing Rush. Daniel Mansilla replaced Borg on percussion, and became the band's permanent touring percussionist. Rush guitarist Alex Lifeson also made a guest appearance on the song "Like a Girl". However, signs of dissension in the band were already showing. For the first time, Edwin revealed to the music press that he had no creative control in the band and that such a situation gave him "no reason to be (t)here". He had also spent a great deal of the sessions away from the band, recording the album Victor with Lifeson. Still, he remained with IME as the group recorded Scenery and Fish, released in mid-1996. The album, which combined IME's trademark sounds with a slightly softer, radio-friendly approach, was a critical and commercial success. In particular, the singles "One More Astronaut" and "Another Sunday" pushed the band into the commercial elite in Canada, the former cracking the Top 20 on the Billboard Mainstream Rock Chart in the U.S. Subsequent singles "Used to Be Alright" and "Raspberry" also received frequent airplay on radio and video. In 1997, IME was nominated for a Juno Award for Group of the Year. The album was nominated for the Best Rock Album Juno, and was certified Double Platinum in Canada. The band's newfound fame also pushed sales of Dig over the Platinum record mark of 100,000 units.

Transition period
In April 1997, IME's management company announced that Edwin would be leaving the band. From that point on, the band mentioned that Jag Tanna wrote the majority of its music (during jams with his brother and Gordon), that Chris Tanna wrote all of the lyrics, and that Edwin had no control whatsoever. This and musical differences prompted the vocalist to leave. Citing unmanageable tension, the band and Edwin mutually agreed to part ways. The remaining members insisted that they would carry on under the I Mother Earth name, and announced they would be searching for a new lead singer. IME also publicly criticized a show by Franz Masini's new band, which was advertised as "featuring members of I Mother Earth", as a blow to its own name and image. Edwin fulfilled all his contractual obligations with the band, including the Edgefest '97 tour, and left in mid-1997. IME itself ended up in disputes with both EMI and the band's management (Capitol had inexplicably dropped the band prior), and subsequently broke ties with both after their recording contract expired in December 1996.

During this time, the band went through hundreds of demo tapes, all the while maintaining the tour schedule and dealing with the aforementioned business issues. One tape, sent in by Brian Byrne, was instantly thrown in the trash until former Slik Toxik drummer Neal Busby, who was briefly in a band called Klaven with Byrne, recommended the singer. IME finally listened to the tape, and after auditioning Byrne, immediately agreed that he was their new vocalist. However, the band members waited several months to inform him before finally putting an I Mother Earth T-shirt on him in late 1997, symbolizing his membership in the band. David Usher made the news public, telling the audience at a Moist concert at Massey Hall in November of that year that Byrne was the new singer and then introducing him on stage. IME made its first public performances with Byrne on Our Lady Peace's Summersault tour in mid-1998, and was well received by the crowds through both old and new material.

Byrne years
In late 1998, IME signed with Mercury Records. At the same time, the band returned to Toronto and reunited with Paul Northfield, who again shared production duties with Jag Tanna on the new sessions. These sessions were chronicled on the internet by Bruce Gordon, long considered the most fan-friendly member of the band (Gordon was known to answer fan emails dating back to the Scenery and Fish years). Armando Borg returned in the place of Conte on percussion, though Mansilla remained IME's main percussionist. Rush frontman Geddy Lee was also brought in to provide bass for the album track "Good for Sule". While the Tannas were still the main contributors, they described the creative process as more open than before. The result was Blue Green Orange, which was released in 1999. It was somewhat of a departure from the band's earlier work, opting for more textured, spacier sounds and less of an emphasis on the band's hard-rock reputation. The album's lead single, "Summertime in the Void", was a hit on rock radio in Canada with the track’s video had multiple air plays on Much Music throughout the summer of 1999 and showed that the band was still commercially viable with a different singer and a change in sound. Subsequent singles "All Awake" and "When Did You Get Back from Mars?" also received radio and video airplay. The album was certified Gold in Canada, but was seen as a disappointment by many compared to the previous albums. Tanna and Northfield won a Juno Award in 2000 for "Best Recording Engineer", and the album was nominated for "Best Album Design".

IME came off the road and in 2001 the band members settled into their own Toronto studio, The Mother's Hip. However, this period was plagued with problems. Brian Byrne had ruptured his vocal cords and required surgery. Christian Tanna broke his forearm and was unable to play drums. After those injuries healed the band decided to scrap the entire session, which was reportedly filled with radio-friendly material, and start from the beginning. This occurred after a false story circulated in the media that the album was finished and tentatively titled Save the Last Disco. Furthermore, the band also dealt with the EMI release of Earth, Sky, and Everything in Between, an album of B-Sides and live recordings from the EMI years. The Tannas and Gordon issued a statement insisting the record was unauthorized and was nothing more than a cash grab by EMI. Edwin offered no comment on the album.

IME then went to work on the proper new album in 2002 with producer David Bottrill (alongside Jag Tanna), taking only a short break to headline the "Canadian MTV Campus Invasion Tour", then releasing a song as a preview of the new material. The song "Juicy" was pressed as a promo single for the Vin Diesel movie xXx, and despite no push from the label and no video, it received rock radio airplay on its own. It was later included on The Quicksilver Meat Dream, released in early 2003. The album was an even larger departure from past works, with industrial elements replacing the Latin percussion (but not Mansilla, who still toured with the band), and a heavier, more progressive sound than ever before. However, Universal was unimpressed with the nearly finished product and demanded radio-friendly singles, so the band returned to the studio to appease the label. Lead single "Like the Sun" was another Canadian rock hit, but despite its popularity, it failed to sell the record. Due to the dismal sales and arguments with the Tannas over the direction of IME, Universal withdrew all support from the band, leaving it to fund small tours and second single "No Coma" on its own. The song failed to be officially added to rock radio, the video received very limited play, and the band decided to end the album's run after only seven months. The band provided the theme songs for the MuchMusic TV shows Much on Demand and MuchLOUD, but otherwise went unheard in the media for the rest of the year. Universal officially dropped IME at the end of 2003. In November 2003, I Mother Earth performed a special show in Barrie, Ontario, entitled "Live off the Floor". Largely considered by those present as their greatest live performance, the intimate, nearly four-hour show featured the band performing in the round of the Georgian College venue, with the crowd on all sides. IME played most of its back catalogue at the show, and it was thought to be the band's final performance.

Hiatus
During the band's hiatus, Brian Byrne started a solo career, releasing two albums and one EP. Bruce Gordon joined the Blue Man Group lineup and pursued numerous side projects. Jagori Tanna founded a new studio and record label, UpperLeftSide music, as well as the production company Segment X Productions. Christian Tanna organized local Toronto rock and jazz events, and was in management roles with both UpperLeftSide music and The Venue, a concert-oriented nightclub in Peterborough, Ontario.

Reunion
In January, 2012, Byrne began winding down his solo work, and plans were made to revive I Mother Earth, with members from Byrne's time with the band. During this period, the Tanna brothers and Byrne lived in Peterborough, Ontario, while Gordon continued to work full-time with the Blue Man Group production in Orlando, FL.

On January 24, 2012, the band's hiatus ended with a concert announcement and blog post on their official website.

On March 21, 2012, the band released the track "We Got the Love" via SoundCloud before making it available for purchase as a digital download a week later. It was officially serviced and added to Canadian rock radio shortly thereafter.

On March 22, the band made its first appearance onstage together in more than eight years, when it performed a two-and-a-half hour set at the Sound Academy in Toronto. The following night, the band played an even longer set at the same venue. Both nights were sold out. The band then announced summer festival appearances in Ontario. They also headlined George Street in St. John's, Newfoundland on Canada Day, and performed a number of shows supporting Nickelback. In his blog, Jag Tanna also talked about working with Byrne to develop an intimate and interactive show where the band's songs are deconstructed and then presented in different ways.

On July 25, 2012, Jag Tanna announced in a blog posting that bassist Bruce Gordon wouldn't be a part of some upcoming shows, due to other professional and personal commitments. Chuck Dailey, bass player with the band The Salads, was enlisted as what Tanna described as "the understudy." Dailey had assisted the band during rehearsals. Gordon provided him with iPhone video of some of the more difficult I Mother Earth bass parts to help him learn the material. Dailey made his live debut with the band on the same day, during a performance at Empire Rockfest in Belleville, ON. He continued to perform with the band as a touring member. Bruce Gordon has not been contacted for shows since 2013.

On October 5, 2012, the band appeared during Kitchener's Oktoberfest. The band participated in Rocktoberfest, a series of events that also featured guitar legend David Wilcox.

In early 2013, the band started to play shows with a new intimate and interactive concept titled "A Very Long Evening with I Mother Earth". The first set, open to VIP ticket holders, was a combination of question and answer mixed with acoustic or deconstructed versions of five or six songs. The second set, open to general admission, was a three-hour electric set featuring fan favourites and extended jams.

In 2015, the band released two new singles, "The Devil's Engine" and "Blossom", both of which received rock radio airplay in Canada.

Byrne's departure, reunion with Edwin
In February 2016, it was reported that Byrne, who had a radio gig at Halifax's Live 105 FM, was also trying out to be the new vocalist for Stone Temple Pilots. Jagori Tanna revealed in a 2018 interview that the band had a tour planned with Byrne when he "disappeared" and the Tanna brothers never heard from him.

On March 1, 2016, the band announced that it would reunite with original vocalist Edwin to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the band's 1996 album Scenery and Fish. The band performed two sold-out shows at the Phoenix Concert Theatre in Toronto on June 3 and 4, 2016, in which the band played the album Scenery and Fish in its entirety. The band has since continued to tour with Edwin and have stated plans to release new songs in the future.

On November 30, 2021, the band announced two shows in 2022 which would feature both Edwin and Byrne performing vocals. The band performed the shows on April 29 and 30 in Ottawa and Toronto, respectively.

On August 1, 2023, the band announced that original percussionist Armando Borg had died.

Band members

 * Jagori Tanna - guitar (1990–2003, 2012–present)
 * Christian Tanna - drums (1990–2003, 2012–present)
 * Edwin - lead vocals (1990–1997, 2016–present)

 * Former members
 * Brian Byrne - lead vocals (1997–2003, 2012–2015, 2022)
 * Bruce Gordon - bass (1992–2003, 2012)
 * Franz Masini - bass (1990–1992)

 * Touring members

 * Daniel Mansilla - percussions (1996–present)
 * Chris Collins - keyboards (2012–2015)
 * Chuck Dailey - bass (2012–2022)
 * Joe Barlow - bass (2022–2023)
 * Rico "The King" Browne - bass (2023–present)
 * Jesse Karwat - keyboards, percussion (2016–present)

title: I Mother Earth