text:
Talk:Denaturation (biochemistry)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 January 2019 and 13 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kevyeung55.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:57, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Stephanietepan18, SarhAly 378. Peer reviewers: Stephanietepan18, SarhAly 378.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:18, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

From Talk:Denatured
Is gelatin denatured collagen? Both have very high glycine content. -phma Gelatine is a pure protein obtained from animal raw materials containing collagen. The natural and healthy food has excellent gelling strength.  Dwmyers 16:16 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)
 * since it is capable of a gel to sol transition, I would have to say no. This is a blurb about gelatin from http://www.gelatine.org :

Another example that could be added, if it isn't too grisly: if my information is correct, denaturation is why you wash blood stains in cold water. Using hot water on blood denatures it, causing protein strands to twist around fibers in the fabric, making them almost impossible to remove. Using cold water to clean blood out of cloth works pretty well.

I heard that you can prepare fish like tuna and salmon by marinating them in lemon juice over night as opposed to cooking with heat. Anyone know more information about this? I assume it's an example of denaturation.
 * same as the ceviche example

H-bonding in secondary structure
I believe that it should be noted that the disruption of secondary structure is due to the breaking of hydrogen bonds between the amino acid residues. This is important because it is the localized hydrogen bonding that lets amino acids form the secondary structures that they do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.68.140 (talk) 22:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Spamming Wikipedia
Biologicalworld.com has spammed wikipedia like no tomorrow. He is a site of only a few pages and a LOT of adsense. Not much information is given except for "protocols" which are not referenced, and cannot be trusted from a site of that quality.

check: Links from Wikipedia

Please help me with this someone or get a bot to delete the spam.

The following have been cleaned up:

 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmid
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gel_electrophoresis
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_fluorescent_protein
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homology_(biology)
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protease
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_enzyme
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petri_dish
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_domain
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypsin
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligonucleotide
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_electron_microscope
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar_plate
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_phosphate
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disulfide_bond
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturation_(biochemistry)
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_ligase
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_type
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissue_culture
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_electron_microscopy
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporter_gene
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_blot
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_engineering
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_end/blunt_end
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taq_polymerase
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_domain
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coomassie
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_state
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Hamster_Ovary_cell
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptidase
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visking_tubing
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streptavidin
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtiter_plate
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcloning
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_exchange_chromatography
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_cycler
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_serum_albumin
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphate_buffered_saline
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutathione_S-transferase
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPES
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ortholog
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteases
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salting_out
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_bovine_serum
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteolytic_enzyme
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_end
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatant
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABTS
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conserved_sequence
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptide_mass_fingerprinting
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dithiothreitol
 * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranyl_acetate

and many more Sciencetalks (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 03:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

 * If you find a URL that is added as spam to articles you can take it to m:Talk:Spam blacklist. Seans Potato Business 12:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Denatured proteins in eggs
So if the protein in eggs is denatured by cooking it, does this mean that a cooked egg's protein is still valuable to the body (even if not as valuable as a raw egg)? And do different cooking methods (i.e microwaving) make the protein in eggs even less nutritious? Kitty (talk) 09:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Denaturation does not alter the primary structure of the protein (the amino acid sequence). The protein that you eat is digested to yield individual amino acids that are used by your body to synthesise its own proteins (OSB 2011)

Denaturing Eggs
Page says "Although denaturing egg whites is irreversible, in many other cases denaturing is reversible", but I don't think that's true. Molecular Gastronomy has figured out you can unboil an egg, which if my understanding is correct, means that you've reversed the denaturing process. Sodium borohydride is the preferred chemical for the process, but Vitamin C can work, too. Hardburn (talk) 14:04, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Another article discussing the process of unboiling an egg / renaturing the proteins in the white. Harp2812 (talk) 20:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Common Examples
"Pouring egg whites into a beaker of acetone will also turn egg whites translucent and solid." Shouldn't this read "opaque and solid"? Zalumon (talk) 18:37, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Coagulated protein
A mere dictionary definition for a minor concept in protein denaturation. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 18:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 13:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Suggested Edits (Content, Sources)
In the introduction of this article there is mention to several conditions that can cause denaturation. The ones listed were as follows: external stress from an acid or base, inorganic salts, organic solvents, radiation and heat. The common denaturation section mentions just the egg example. I agree that this is a great tangible and visible example of denaturation. I do think that possible adding more examples in this section may be beneficial. The examples could possibly expand on one of the other factors listed that can cause denaturation.

When searching through the citations, I noticed that one of the sources, source 5, was from 1968. After reading the article it seems that it may be outdated. The article mentions doubt had by the researchers that seems to be more supported by studies today. For example, the article seems to only confirm that denaturation indeed removes secondary, tertiary, and quaternary structure. A more recent article may be able to expand on this discovery possibly allowing answers to the how and why aspects of this discovery.

(Belles18 (talk) 04:19, 3 September 2016 (UTC))

"Currently" (as of 2003)
In § Biologically-induced denaturation, the text currently says Currently, biophysical and biochemical research studies are being performed to more fully elucidate the thermodynamic details of the denaturation bubble[,] and cites

While I have little doubt that this is true, "currently" is an inherently time-sensitive word—so a nearly 15-year-old reference doesn't seem like the ideal choice! There's probably a better, less time-sensitive, way to word the sentiment, but I'm not sure what. Any ideas? den dodge 10:53, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Protein Denaturation - Acid and Bases
Hello all, I hope all is well. I had a suggestion for this article. I noticed that their was no section on how acids and bases can denature proteins. I was wondering if I could be please help edit this article to include this section. Please let me know what you think. Thank you once again.Stephanietepan18 (talk) 23:42, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Protein Denaturation
Hello editors, it came to my notice that there was not a section on techniques of protein denaturation. I was hoping to know if it would be acceptable that I incorporate some of these techniques to the article. Please let me know what you think. SarhAly 378 (talk) 23:42, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: CHEM 378 - Biochemistry Lab
— Assignment last updated by Apple F1 (talk) 23:23, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Denaturation (biochemistry)


text:
Talk:Denaturation

From Talk:Denatured
Can you include information about denatured alcohol ( you can see some information at glycerin)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Denaturation


text:
I Enjoy Being a Girl (album)

I Enjoy Being a Girl is an album by the American musician Phranc, released in 1989. She supported the album with a North American tour.

Production
The album was produced by Victor DeLorenzo. "I Enjoy Being a Girl" is a cover of the 1958 Rodgers and Hammerstein composition from Flower Drum Song. "M-A-R-T-I-N-A" is about Martina Navratilova. "Bloodbath" criticizes Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. "Myriam and Esther" is dedicated to Phranc's grandmothers. "Rodeo Parakeet" is about Phranc's bird that enjoys riding on dogs. "Toy Time" is a tribute to Toys "R" Us.

The album cover art was in part inspired by a photo of Alice Faye. Orson Bean wrote the liner notes.

Critical reception
The Calgary Herald determined that the "heavy-handed protest anthems are the album's weaker entries." The Globe and Mail deemed the album "a delightful piece of work: funny, committed, romantic and charming."

The Washington Post wrote that Phranc "has a warm but not particularly lovely voice, and her strumming is basic at best, but she's a folk singer in the true sense of the word—she seizes her inspiration of the moment and makes music about it." The Houston Chronicle praised the "earnest, endearing quality not unlike Jonathan Richman."

AllMusic wrote that "'Myriam and Esther', a traditional folk ballad with a distinctly female perspective, is the type of earnest song that only Phranc seems able to pull off in post-modern times."

Track listing
All tracks composed by Phranc; except where indicated
 * 1) "Folksinger" – 2:05
 * 2) "I Enjoy Being a Girl" (Oscar Hammerstein, Richard Rodgers) – 3:16
 * 3) "Double Decker Bed" – 2:02
 * 4) "Bloodbath" – 2:54
 * 5) "Individuality" – 2:31
 * 6) "Rodeo Parakeet" – 3:01
 * 7) "Take Off Your Swastika" – 3:30
 * 8) "Toy Time" – 2:34
 * 9) "M-A-R-T-I-N-A" – 2:36
 * 10) "Myriam and Esther" – 3:41
 * 11) "Ballad of Lucy + Ted" – 4:19
 * 12) "Moonlight Becomes You" (Johnny Burke, Jimmy Van Heusen) – 2:27

Personnel

 * Phranc – producer, vocals, guitar
 * Victor DeLorenzo – producer
 * Connie Grauer– backing vocals, arranger, keyboards
 * Jimmy Eanelli – bass guitar, 12-string guitar
 * Brian Ritchie – mandolin
 * Kim Zick – percussion, drums
 * Scott Leonard – engineer

title: I Enjoy Being a Girl (album)


text:
Alaska Supreme Court

The Alaska Supreme Court is the state supreme court for the U.S. state of Alaska. Its decisions are binding on all other Alaska state courts, and the only court its decisions may be appealed to is the Supreme Court of the United States. The Alaska Supreme Court hears appeals from lower state courts and also administers the state's judicial system.

The court consists of five justices, one of whom is internally chosen to serve as chief justice for a three-year term. The justices are appointed by the governor of Alaska from slates of candidates approved by the Alaska Judicial Council, an independent commission of Alaskan lawyers and lay citizens. Each justice faces a judicial retention election after their third year of service and once every ten years thereafter.

It hears cases on a monthly basis in Anchorage, approximately quarterly in Fairbanks and Juneau, and as needed in other Alaska communities. The court prefers to hear oral arguments in the city where the case was heard in the trial court.

History
Alaska's supreme court was founded along with the rest of Alaska's court system, about six months after statehood. From 1884 until the establishment of Alaska Supreme Court, the United States Territorial District Court for the District of Alaska was the highest judicial body in Alaska.

The court originally consisted of two associate justices and a chief justice. In 1967, the court was expanded to five justices, and the chief justice was restricted to a three-year term.

Appointment and retention
Like all Alaska state court judges, Alaska Supreme Court justices are appointed under a Missouri Plan system. The governor of Alaska appoints justices from lists of qualified candidates submitted to him or her by the Alaska Judicial Council, an independent seven-member commission composed of at least three lawyers and at least three non-lawyers from various parts of the state appointed on a non-partisan basis. To be eligible for appointment, a person must be a citizen of the United States and a resident of Alaska for five years prior to appointment. A justice must be licensed to practice law in Alaska at the time of appointment and must have engaged in the active practice of law for eight years. The appointed justice must be approved by the voters on a nonpartisan ballot at the first statewide general election held more than three years after appointment; thereafter, each justice must participate in another retention election every ten years.

Jurisdiction
The supreme court has final state appellate jurisdiction in both civil and criminal law matters. It must accept appeals from final decisions by the superior court in civil cases (including cases which originated in administrative agencies). Until the creation of the court of appeals in 1980, the supreme court was also required to accept appeals from final decisions in criminal cases; now, however, the court of appeals fills this role, although the supreme court still has jurisdiction to exercise its discretion to accept appeals from decisions of the court of appeals (or upon certification from the court of appeals that the case involves a significant question of constitutional law or an issue of substantial public interest). In addition, the supreme court may, at its discretion, hear petitions from non-final decisions by lower courts or original applications in matters in which relief is not otherwise available, including admission to the bar association and attorney discipline matters, as well as questions of state law certified from the United States federal courts.

Decisions
The court meets after oral argument and on a bi-weekly basis to confer on cases argued orally and on cases submitted on the briefs. The court usually announces its decisions of the cases by issuing opinions for official publication (in Westlaw, the Pacific Reporter and the Alaska Reporter) as well as memorandum opinions and judgments (MO&Js) and orders summarily ruling on the merits of cases or dismissing them. Although the MO&Js and most orders are not published, the MO&Js are available for public inspection at the Anchorage, Fairbanks, and Juneau offices of the clerk of the appellate courts, and the orders are filed in the clerk's Anchorage office. Current MO&Js are also available on the Alaska Court System website.

Rules and administration
Under the Alaska Constitution, the supreme court establishes rules for the administration of all courts in the state and for practice and procedure in civil and criminal cases. The supreme court has further adopted rules for the practice of law in Alaska and procedural rules for children's matters, probate, and appeals. The Alaska Legislature may change the court's procedural rules by passing an act expressing its intent to do so by a two-thirds majority of both houses.

The chief justice
The five supreme court justices, by majority vote, select one of their members to be the chief justice. The chief justice holds that office for three years and may not serve consecutive terms. The chief justice is also the administrative head of the Alaska Court System. The chief justice, Peter Maassen began his term in February 2023, succeeding Justice Daniel Winfree.

title: Alaska Supreme Court


text:
Talk:Greek Cypriots

Legacy
One interesting legacy is that many Greek Cypriots adopted the Muslim title of "Hadji" (bestowed upon Muslims who have completed the hajj to Makkah) to indicate that they had completed a pilgrimage to a significant Christian religious site. Hence, many Greek Cypriot surnames begin with "Hadji-,"

this is not a cypriot characteristic, it is common in all greek speaking areas. Mavros 15:02, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hadji is also a prefix for people that were doing pilgrimage to the Holy Lands (e.g. Jerusalem, Bethleem), not just Muslim Hadji as in Mecca Gts-tg (talk) 23:57, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

670.000 Greeks Cypriots
According to Eurostat 2010 the population of Greek Cyprus is 796.000 of which 670.000 are Greek Cypriots http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-10-045/EN/KS-SF-10-045-EN.PDF  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Siras (talk • contribs) 04:08, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * NOTICE: This talk-page section is a good object lesson on how NOT to participate in Wikipedia discussions. It appears to have been created in 2010, following one older section, and preceding *another* older section. (I'm not even bothering to pay attention to whether the immediately surrounding contribs are in the wiki-relevant (counter-listserv) order.) The merits of its content may be low or high, but the carelessness of placing it *between* older contribs is stunning, and invites anyone not doing exhaustive analysis to presumptively assign low credibility to its contributor. (The inclusion of the URL with a (to me *moderately* official-sounding) EU URL is *far* from enuf to recommend it as a probably-high-reliability resource for our editors.) --Jerzy•t 06:09, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Add names is Greek and Turkish
I think we should write how Greek Cypriots call themselves (Ελληνοκύπριοι) and also how Turkish Cypriots call them (Kibris Rum). Thus we can link to to the article Rûm. --Kupirijo (talk) 11:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I think the the formal name is Kıbrıs Rum not Kıbrıslı Rum. --Kupirijo (talk) 21:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Our colleague Kupirijo had used the west-European or cosmopolitan letter "i" in spelling the Turkish word, but 5 months on has learned of, noticed, or either chosen or learned to type or paste, the "Turkish dot-less i" character), and now taken up that desirable practice. This change is helpful, and deserves the praise of us, Kupirijo's colleagues. --Jerzy•t 05:15, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Achaeans and Myceaneans
I think mentioning Achaeans and Myceaneans in the same sentence is a bit redundant. They are after all the sane people, I think. --Kupirijo (talk) 11:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, Zorba seemed to suggest they are all the INsane people! --Jerzy•t 06:14, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Misleading POV map
Misleading map of cyprus showing 1973 population. By that time, most of the Turkish Cypriots had moved into small enclaves and had abondoned thier land. This picture presents a misleading Point of View. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WillMall (talk • contribs) 19:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Hidden comment
hi all - nice article btw - I have hidden the sentence that describes the Greek Cypriot population as "80%" as there has been no citation added since Jan 2009. The numbers cannot be taken simply from the Republic of Cyprus census as this is lacking in many ways and in no way accurately summarises the population of Cyprus. The survey did not include immigrants to the North of Cyprus of British, Russian etc nationality, nor does it include many of the "illegal" Turkish immigrants.

THe biggest problem is that it does not seem to include many of the Turkish Cypriots who have legitimate claim to citizenship

Chaosdruid (talk) 20:27, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

From the census in 2001 amended in 2005 (yes I know its a while ago lol)
Hi all

THe census of 2001 amended in 2005 gives the Cypriot figures as "Country  of birth: by major age group, April 2001" at 77,676

I appreciate the number may be higher but it seems bizzare that the statement of 200,000 is deemed to be true, let alone an increase to 300,000

CAn someone try and clarify please ? Are the figures currently in the article reporting "Of Greek Cypriot descent" rather than "Greek Cypriot". Obviously if you are born in the UK you are not Greek Cypriot.

ThanksChaosdruid (talk) 20:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Not ethnic Greeks
Greek Cypriots are not "ethnic Greeks", the term "Greek" refers, primarily, to their common language. Genetic research on both DNA and blood groups has established that GCs and TCs are part of the same gene pool, which is distinct from that of either "mainland" country. GCs are genetically more akin with people from West Asia (the Levant) and North Africa than Greece. Therefore, they are not "ethnic Greeks". It is the same with "Arabs", peoples who share the same common language, Arabic, but not necessarily the same ethnicity.

See these sources for a starter:

—Olympian (talk) 18:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Nonsense. The sources I have cited define the Greek Cypriots unambiguously as an ethnic Greek community, i.e. the CIA World Factbook, which lists "Greek" as the main entry under "Ethnic groups". Same with the Cypriot government source, as well as the Catholic Near East Welfare Association source you cited. I fail to see how genetics is at all relevant to the question at hand. Ethnicity is principally a matter of language, culture, history and self-identification. And the Greek flag flies alongside the Cypriot throughout the part of the island not occupied by the Turks. Please refrain from introducing your own personal views or fringe theories into the article.  · ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ·   19:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Citing that the Greek flag flies alongside the Cypriot is not really the best way to prove your point. I would consider that an attempt at enosis lol.
 * I have read your work though, ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ, on the article and it is very neutral. I agree that ethnicity is as you describe and not genetic. THe first greek settlers moved over 2000 yrs bc but they were small in number and after the island was taken, taken, taken, taken and taken by other ethnic groups over the next 1500 years I am sure that not much genetic differentiation exists between the two ethnic groups until more recent centuries
 * Chaosdruid (talk) 23:01, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * It was a simple statement of fact. The Greek flag is flown everywhere in Cyprus, despite the idea of Enosis not being particularly popular these days. Cyprus also shares a national anthem with Greece. The notion that the Greek Cypriots aren't Greek is pretty ridiculous, don't you think? As for the genetics, I'm sure the same could be said for any two neighbouring ethnic groups who nonetheless have distinct or even conflicting ethnonational identities.  · ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ·   23:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Everywhere ? even in the north ? The Greek cypriots are called so because of their ethnic background, not their genetic one, which you have rightly pointed out previously. The greek cypriots are in fact NOT greek - they are cypriot.
 * Chaosdruid (talk) 23:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * I already mentioned that it wasn't flown in the Turkish-occupied north. Pray tell, how can Greek Cypriots not be Greek? Greek does not refer exclusively to Greece, as you seem to be implying. Indeed, for much of their modern history most ethnic Greeks lived outside the borders of the modern Greek state.  · ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ·   23:59, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

deleted link/facebook source
i took the liberty of removing a link about "Holiday villas for rent in cyprus, paphos". also, the US population source is a facebook group, and i can't find the relevant info in it (although i may have missed it). k kisses 00:38, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

population in info box
Facebook and Amazon are not reliable sources! Can someone please change this, otherwise I will. Thank you. Turco  85 ( Talk ) 14:55, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Greek Cypriots flag
There are more than one flag that are in use unofficially by many Greek Cypriots around the world. File:Flag of EOKA.tif A. Katechis Mpourtoulis (talk) 10:16, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for raising this question here in the talk page! This is indeed the correct place for the discussion.
 * One of the main principles of Wikipedia is verifiability, which you can read about here. This means that other editors should be able to check that the information you enter is correct. What you or I know (or think we know) is not admissible unless supported by reliable sources, which you can read about here. In the current case with the flag of Greek Cypriots, you need to find sources, not only for the fact that the flag is used, but also to show that the flag is somehow representative for the population group. When you now state that more than one flag [...] are in use unofficially by many Greek Cypriots around the world, you make it even harder, since you need to show sources for which of those flags, if any, is representative. If there are different subgroups using different flags, one could imagine some sort of gallery, but then each single flag would need to be sourced to its subgroup.
 * Regarding the flag of Cyprus, which you wanted to put into the infobox, that is not an option. That flag is not the flag of Greek Cypriots, but the flag of the Republic of Cyprus, and therefore, at least in principle and de jure, the flag of all Cypriots, Greek and Turkish. Regards! --T*U (talk) 14:36, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

 * You are correct. The flag that it is in used until today by many Greek Cypriots around the world is also put by my in the "list of Greek flags" as a Greek flag used outside Greece. There are no any official use or any sources except photographs of rallys, protest national organizations, folklore Greek Cypriot organizations and Greek sport club fans around the world. It is also in many flag online shops.
 * A. Katechis Mpourtoulis (talk) 15:15, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I am talking about this one
 * [[File:Flag of EOKA.tif]] A. Katechis Mpourtoulis (talk) 15:16, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
 * (I indented your comment for better readability.)
 * I have searched the net for "Greek Cypriot flag", and I come up with a lot of different versions, none of them actually matching the layout of the EOKA flag you present. Here are some examples: Here two versions, At the bottom of the article, In the middle of the picture, Another version, Still another version. All of them are different, so none of them can qualify as the flag of Greek Cypriots. Also, these flags seem to be used mostly in ultra-nationalist demonstrations, which rather disqualifies them of being representative for the whole ethnic group. And as I said, source needed. --T*U (talk) 07:22, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

There are not any sources as the flag is unofficial but only in public use. The most common greek cypriot flag is the one that I already show you but with orange Cyprus. It is used not only by ultranationalists but as i said it's used by many others. https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/cy%7Dgr.html https://www.interflag.gr/el/simaies-istorikes/892-greek-cyprus.html https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Greek-Cypriot-ENOTIKI-EOKA-Flag-5x3-100-x-150cm-Greece-Cyprus-Nationalists/222872359442?hash=item33e43a5212:g:87wAAOSw1RVabTce http://www.drasis-kes.org/2016/10/estin-oun-ellas-kai-i-kypros.html http://www.diakonima.gr/2012/03/26/επιμνημόσυνος-λόγος-για-τον-ήρωα-κυρι/enomenes-elliniki-kypriaki-simaia-03/ https://picclick.com/HQ-Greek-Cypriot-Flag-EOKA-ENOTIKH-322452592369.html http://www.epilekta.com/2018/02/blog-post_637.html http://www.defence-point.gr/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/APOEL-Simaia_EOKA.jpg https://antiparakmi.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/bc019-kyproselliniki.jpg A. Katechis Mpourtoulis (talk) 10:08, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
 * These links you give just underlines the fact that there are lots of different versions. I can count at least five different flags (different size of the map, other elements beside the map or inside the map). There is not just one "Cypriot Greek flag", it is a plethora of flags built on the same idea. Also, the connection to EOKA is very often present, but EOKA is hardly representative for Greek Cypriots in general. It is a bit like seeing Russian communists waving the Soviet flag and conclude that that is the flag of Russians in general. As for sources, we obviously do not find sources that it is official. But we need sources stating that there exists an unofficial Cypriot Greek flag that is representative for the Greeks Cypriots in general. --T*U (talk) 10:35, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

At this point you are wrong. This flag represents an ethnic group. Cypriots that are basically Greek. It is not political issue. If we don't put a flag like this one, we can just put a image of Greek Cypriots waving this flag without say in that is their flag. We can just say that is a flag which is used by the Greeks of Cyprus in order to show their and "Free Cyprus" identity. In the infobox, we can put the Cyprus flag next to Greek. A. Katechis Mpourtoulis (talk) 12:29, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) What do you mean by This flag when there are so many different versions? 2) What evidence can you give that any of the many different flags represents an ethnic group as a whole and is not political issue? 3) Why should we have a picture of image of Greek Cypriots waving this flag unless we can call it their flag? 4) What is it about sources you do not understand? Please read WP:V and WP:RS. Text like a flag which is used by the Greeks of Cyprus in order to show their and "Free Cyprus" identity also needs a source. 5) Finally: The Cyprus flag and the Greek flag are national flags. They can not be used to show ethnicity. No way! --T*U (talk) 13:08, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Addition: If you are fed up discussing with me, you could always try to get input from others. See WP:3O and WP:RFC for possible ways of attracting the interest of other editors. --T*U (talk) 13:13, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

You are from the occupited area, arent you? A. Katechis Mpourtoulis (talk) 14:16, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what that has to do with anything, but the answer is "No": I have not even been to Cyprus. --T*U (talk) 14:24, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

ok A. Katechis Mpourtoulis (talk) 15:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

 * Must say that I absolutely agree with TU-nor. EOKA is revered today by Greek Cypriots as anti-colonialist independence fighters, but this flag, which symbolises their pro-enosis ideology, hardly has widespread resonance within Cyprus let alone unanimous representation of a community. The proponent needs to supply academic sources that any flag they insert represent these communities as a whole as one would expect such literature to be available if that had been the case. That will, of course, never be the case as there is no unanimously agreed upon "Greek Cypriot flag". This flag in particular is only really used in extreme nationalist demonstrations nowadays . As such, no way. --GGT (talk) 00:14, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Genetic studies
Sarno et al. 2017 conclude that:, but Demetrios only included the first part of the conclusion. Why isn't the article mentioning the full conclusion?

Other parts I added from the source:
 * Heraclides et al. 2017:

 * Heraclides et al. 2017:
 * Heraclides et al. 2017:

Why are they source misrepresentation? has to explain reverts. Genetic studies have been used selectively. All differences between Greek Cypriots and mainland Greeks have been removed, similarities between Greek and Turkish Cypriots and differences between Turkish Cypriots and Turks have been overemphasized because there is omission of the full studies. Also, where in any source I mentioned, is there any "aggressive POV"? Ahmet Q. (talk) 01:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

 * Pardon for my ignorance and intrusion but, your additions are out of scope. The fact that it serves your POV it does not mean that you can include it in this article. This article is about Greek Cypriots and not about how the genetics (sic) of Albania or Kosovo are clustering with. It is not something strange for Albanians to cluster with Greeks because many places in southern Illyria (Albania) were colonised by Ancient Greeks e.g. Epidamnos, Ancient Aulon and goes on and for sure there was the Theme of Dyrrhachium during the Byzantine Empire. Well here is a funny sort of example regarding Eleni Foureira's DNA test showing the results of "68.9% Greek and South Italian, 29.8% Balkan, and 1.3% Ashkenazi Jewish". In any case, I strongly support to not include your additions due to being off topic. These are covered in the respective Greeks and Albanians articles. Best Othon I (talk) 19:38, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * MyHeritageDNA clusters people in broad geographical categories. One of them is "Greek and Southern Italian". There's no ancestral correlation with any population based on just the name of the category. The 2 ancient Greek colonies which existed in Albania and which had a 90% native population are not linked to any modern population distribution. Albanians from eastern Kosovo don't cluster with Peloponnesian Greeks ... because in Apollonia (southern Albania) 2000 years ago about 10% of the population came from ancient Greece. The "Greek and Southern Italian" is not linked to a specific ancient Greek grouping. Many Greeks score lower on the "Greek and Southern Italian" than many Albanians and if they are non-mainland Greeks they may score as much as 3X lower than the average Albanian.. Every person from Greece who does ancestry testing can see his matches and if they're male, their position on a y-dna tree. And for many mainland Greeks their position shows medieval divergence/migration from the north to the south. And some come from even more northern locations than those traditionally related to the ancestors of Albanians in antiquity. --Maleschreiber (talk)
 * Side comment: This relation doesn't make mainland Greeks .. Albanians. Identity is historically and socially determined and obviously not all mainland Greeks are descendants of medieval migrants, nor can a population can have only one source of ancestry. But the existing partial common heritage creates room for better relations between countries and people, if we emphasize it as common heritage and not as a Balkan nationalist narrative.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sidenote: According to MyHeritage, "[p]eople with Greek and South Italian ethnicity have ancient roots in the Greek peninsula, centered around the Aegean and Ionian Seas", which as a statement compliments the countries it is most frequently found; though the ancient attribution that is claimed seems more of an advertising element, or at least subjective of them. Furthermore, aside of a relatively small collection of results that are uploaded on YouTube, and which are subjectively explained, it should be noted that according to official MyHeritage statistics that pertain to their full database, the "Greek and South Italian ethnicity" is most prevalent (site) in Greece (89%), then Albania (83.6%), North Macedonia (80.3%), Cyprus (69%), Bulgaria (64.8%), and Italy (57%). Now, i am not saying this to support that whoever gets "Greek and South Italian" as a result, it is proof that he/she certainly has Greek ancestry, but it is apparent that it is most frequently found among Greeks, and in the southern Balkans of all places. Personally, i received much more information on my autosomal DNA by playing around with GEDmatch calculators, than from MyHeritage. Regarding this post by George Papailias (administrator of the project), with whom i have discussed extensively in private, it's outdated and written by him at a time that he hadn't yet understood the highly suggestive, and not indicative nature of SNP tracker models. Further analysis of the available data shows that his clade, I-A480, formed in the eastern Alps (where variance and frequency of its sister clade I-Y3562 is almost exclusively found among Slovenians, and with a similar TMRCA) at approximately 200 BCE, likely by a Celt (judging from the distribution and TMRCAs of upstream clades and the ancient history of Slovenia). I-A480, due to the lack of its presence in the western Balkans, seems to have immediately carried on to the southern Balkans, reaching northern Greece by at least 350 CE according to this alternative SNP tracker model, while TMRCA, distribution, and variance of downstream clades shows that it was with high certainty in Greece by c. 800 CE. Can't recall exactly, but of the 16 total samples under I-A480, 10 are Greek, 2 Bulgarian, 1 Serbian, 1 Aromanian, while for the last 2 (Gunar and Fish) i am not certain. Last, regarding the genetic affinity between Greeks and Albanians, you seem to be suggesting that it is mostly due to the medieval southward migration (which didn't only consist of Albanians), but in the Sarno et al. (2017) paper, and specifically at Figure 5, it shows the "Southern Balkan" cluster's times of admixture prior of 1000 CE, meaning many centuries prior of the Albanian migrations to southern Greece, hence the attribution to the Slavs by the paper. I do agree with you that "the existing partial common heritage creates room for better relations between [our] countries and people". Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:32, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 * Thank you Demetrios for the valuable clarification. Genetics is a complicated subject, and its easily misused by people that do not understand it or that have specific agendas. Now, I'm all for "better relations", but "better relations" start with better behavior, especially here on wikipedia. A good example of better behavior would be not starting flamewars in articles unrelated to one's usual interests for the sole purpose of "sticking it" to users one dislikes. "Existing partial common heritage" is all fine and dandy, but is not in itself sufficient for better relations. Khirurg (talk) 18:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 * you understand that you have made an argument of ignorance regarding the MyHeritage topic? Please read carefully Demetrios1993 comment above and then you will most probably that MyHeritage considers the result "Greek and South Italian" as "People with Greek and South Italian ethnicity have ancient roots in the Greek peninsula, centered around the Aegean and Ionian Seas and not somewhere in Albania?. Also, more Greeks (89%) score than fewer Albanians (83,6%) as "Greek and South Italian". I can't really get the nature of your argument of ignorance. There is no need to feel uncomfortable with something already proven. Othon I (talk) 22:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * That "Greek and South Italian" appears in 89% of people who have tested in Greece and 83.6% in Albania doesn't suggest any direction for population flows. The difference is too small. The determining factor is related to the % expressed via this category among people tested in each country. Greenlanders are 87.1% "Scandivanian", Danes 84.2% and Swedes 80%. But nobody is suggesting that Swedes and Danes came from Greenland. According to MyHeritage, Until the end of 2021, we'll get better results about population clusters.  The Greek peninsula has historically been the demographic concentration point for the central and southern Balkans. Pre-medieval links may mask ghost populations which belonged to the same general cluster as the ancestors of Albanians, but I think that Pre-Proto-Albanians and MBA/LBA Proto-Greeks weren't that different overall.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Guys, this is not a platform to discuss all these. But in short, the new "Genetic Groups" by MyHeritage are interesting. To be honest i wasn't aware of them until Maleschreiber mentioned it. I don't think a public link exists that includes all of them like there is for the "Ethnicities" distribution around the world. Fortunately, "Genetic Groups" are available for all prior clients of the company, and anyone with a profile can view all of the existing groups even if not belonging to them. Specifically, there are 101 groups under the "Greek and South Italian" ethnicity. The note that accompanies the list is the following, So, "ethnicities" are relevant broader groups, while "genetic groups" are more refined categories. But still, by viewing a number of them, i was able to see that each has a different timeline which generally dates back to 1600-1900 CE, thus not that ancient. As for the second point you address Maleschreiber, i do agree with you that the ancestors of Albanians and Greeks, from an autosomal (atDNA) perspective, generally belonged to the same macro-cluster (comprised of the central and southern Balkans, as well as southern Italy and probably western Anatolia) from at least the Iron Age. Though, i wouldn't personally support that either pre-proto-Greeks or pre-proto-Albanians belonged to it. Pre-proto-Greeks certainly didn't belong to it, because they would have been predominantly Yamnaya-like (generally 50% EHG and 50% CHG) in admixture; i am thinking members of the Catacomb culture as likely candidates. Likewise, the identity of pre-proto-Albanians, though admittedly palaeo-Balkan, is still a debated subject, with most hypotheses being revolved around Illyrians, Daco-Moesians, or Thracians; even a combination of the aforementioned in varying degrees, and these people didn't constitute a single autosomal cluster. Personally, due to my view that the proto-Albanian Urheimat was within these boundaries i created, i believe there was a degree of hybridization because this area – especially during the early Roman imperial period – was probably the most multi-ethnic in the Balkans, with at least four linguistic groups being present; namely Illyrian proper, Dalmatian-Pannonian, Thracian proper and Moesian (sub-Danubian branch of Daco-Moesian), and as if those were not enough, the Romans in the 1st century CE allowed two mass relocations of more than 150,000 Geto-Dacians (trans-Danubian branch of Daco-Moesian) to Moesia Superior and Moesia Inferior (50,000 in the years of Augustus and over 100,000 in the years of Nero). By the way, this triangular area i show is based on the borders of the Drina river that separates the Eastern Balkan Romance from the Western Balkan Romance, the Jireček line that separates Latin from Greek as lingua francas, and the Danube separating the Latin-speaking Romans from Barbaricum; all relevant for understanding proto-Albanian. Regardless of all that, i would like to point out that Greek-Albanian autosomal affinity is also based on the fact that the two populations have almost identical frequencies for the three main European ancestral groups – Western Hunter-Gatherers, Early European Farmers and Yamnaya – as shown in this three-way mixture model (Figure 3) published here. Demetrios1993 (talk) 07:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not really trying to debate here. Data from commercial DNA companies such as MyHeritage are just facts. Malescreiber just made an argument of ignorance that I am trying to understand the reasons behind. Mentioning that " Greenlanders are 87.1% "Scandinavian", Danes 84.2% and Swedes 80%. But nobody is suggesting that Swedes and Danes came from Greenland" is a crystal clear intentional misinterpretation of the text he is reading. That ultimately means the vice-versa, that Greenlanders come from Scandinavians which is true due to the Viking expansion and the Erik the Red mission to Greenland. For the same reasons, Albanians score high on Greek and South Italian DNA and not Greeks on Albanian DNA (which is not a category for MyHeritage in any case). We need to be constructive with our comments and the comments of the aforementioned user are not a great example. Thanks for your time Othon I (talk) 08:16, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@Ahmet Q: You want me to point out how your edits are aggressively POV and intellectually dishonest? By all means.
 * First, in this edit you changed A 2017 study, found that both Greek Cypriots' and Turkish Cypriots' patrilineal ancestry derives primarily from a single pre-Ottoman local gene pool to A 2017 study (Heraclides et al), found that both Greek Cypriots' and Turkish Cypriots' patrilineal ancestry derives primarily from a single pre-Ottoman local gene pool or can be explained via the introduction of Turkish patrilineal ancestry and heavy admixture with the local Greek Cypriot population. This refers to this high percentage of shared haplotypes between them could be explained either by a common local (pre-Ottoman) ancestry for both communities and a recent (few centuries) divergence (scenario 1 in Introduction), or a non-local (i.e. Turkish) paternal origin of TCy and extensive mixing with the local GCy population during the Ottoman era (scenario 2 in Introduction) in the paper. But if you read the paper in its entirety, or cited it faithfully, you would have seen that the paper states 1) This analysis reveals that none of these are found in Turkey (S11 Table), which does not support a Turkish origin of GCy-TCy shared haplotypes and 2) This observation thus further strengthens the notion of a common paternal ancestry between GCy and TCy (scenario 1) and 3) In fact, Greeks show similar differentiation from both GCy and TCy (i.e., they are equally distant from them), which, further supports scenario 1 (common local ancestry of GCy and TCy) rather than scenario 2 (recent non-local ancestry of TCy and subsequent intermixing with GCy) and 4) Concentrating to more recent history, the lack of shared haplotypes observed between GCy and Turks in the current study, indicates an apparently null (or extremely limited) penetration of Turkish paternal haplotypes into the GCy gene pool, despite 300 years of Ottoman rule of the island and 5) the moderate genetic differentiation (Rst) between TCy and Turks (Table 2) does not support the notion that TCy primarily derive from the same paternal gene pool as mainland Turks (scenario 2 in Introduction). Even the abstract (surely you read the abstract?) states: reveals that despite some differences in haplotype sharing and haplogroup structure, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots share primarily a common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry. Thus, the source clearly supports scenario 1 (that GCy and TCy share a common pre-Ottoman origin) in favor of scenario 2 (post-Ottoman admixture as the source of genetic similarity between GCy and TCy). Your edits explicitly removed that part and instead made it seem like the source gives equal support to scenario 1 and scenario 2, which is absolutely not the case. It's as if you are trying to mislead the readers into thinking that the paper supports a more "Turkish" origin for GCy, which the paper explicitly contradicts. Why did you do this? Did you not read the paper in its entirety (incompetence) or did you read it in its entirety but decided to leave the "inconvenient" parts out (intellectual dishonesty)? Were you hoping no one would notice?
 * You also removed the text The frequency of total haplotypes shared between Greek and Turkish Cypriots is 7-8%, with analysis showing that none of these being found in Turkey, thus not supporting a Turkish origin for the shared haplotypes., even though it is backed by the source. Why did you do this?
 * You also wrote About 24% of all Cypriots are descendants of Levantine migrations from the Neolithic to the present era, but again, that's NOT what the source says. It say: A previous study analyzing detailed SNP data for determining ancient ancestry among Cypriots, revealed that around 24% of Cypriot patrilinages are descendent from the Levant. Do you see the difference? If not, you shouldn't dabble in genetics.
 * You also removed Furthermore, from the Greek sub-populations, Cretan Greeks were found to be the closest to Cypriots. even though that is also backed by the source.
 * The stuff about Albania, Kosovo and mainland Greece are "slightly differentiated" and cluster together is off-topic as it has nothing to do with the topic of the article. Why did you add it?
 * The map of the Fertile Crescent is also completely off-topic. Why did you add it?

In summary, it seems in your edits you a) misquoted and selectively quoted the source to push a particular POV, b) removed sourced content that didn't fit that POV, and c) added off-topic material to further push POV. Your edits are POV in their entirety, so do not even think about trying to ram them through by force. This article is outside your usual area of interest. Can you explain to us your sudden interest in it? Because I can't help avoid the impression that your edits here have an ulterior motive. I hope that is not the case. Oh, and one last thing: This had better be the last time you refer to me as usual POV-pushing editor. Clear? Khirurg (talk) 20:52, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

 * "but Demetrios only included the first part of the conclusion. Why isn't the article mentioning the full conclusion?" – Ahmet
 * I included only the part that pertained to Cypriots. The content you added is off-topic. Since it's not a study that focused exclusively on Cypriots, i didn't make a summary of the whole paper to include the "full conclusion" (which by the way isn't limited to the genetic domains of the 'Mediterranean genetic continuum' and the 'Southern Balkans'). Furthermore, i am very familiar with this difference, and have even brought it up in a discussion with other fellow editors (diff). Your comment implies that i withheld information to misrepresent the "full conclusion". I wouldn't be informing others about it, here in Wikipedia, if that was the case. Demetrios1993 (talk) 06:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that everyone has a - small or big - POV and it's a natural aspect of real life. I think that for some of Ahmet's edits there can be found a formulation which is acceptable to everyone, but some should be mentioned as they were originally formulated. Ahmet mentioned this edit:  Heraclides et al. 2017:  Why was this removed? It's a faithful reproduction of information from the article.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:51, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

 * It's excessive amount of detail devoted to a single source (we already have a paragraph devoted to this entire paper), so WP:UNDUE. It's also taken out of context, for the usual POV reasons. So, no. Khirurg (talk) 16:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Why is it UNDUE to mention the major difference between Greeks and Greek Cypriots, but not UNDUE to mention the difference between Turks and Turkish Cypriots in the article about Greek Cypriots?--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:42, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't see "major differences between Turks and Turkish Cypriots" anywhere. Did you read the article? Khirurg (talk) 16:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This article is very far outside your usual area of "interest". Why the sudden interest and persistence all of a sudden? Care to explain? Khirurg (talk) 16:55, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * An interesting topic isn't necessarily an editing subject. It's better to specialize in editing. Side comment: I didn't ask you about your interest in Bar/Tivar, Montenegro. Now, if you can't agree to include major finds about Greek Cypriots, then this should go to RfC.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you read the paper, but if you did, you would see that it gives additional context for the differences in the I and R haplogroups between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots: These haplogroup differences indicate differential migrations into Cyprus and mainland Greece, at different points in history and prehistory. I2 is considered the major haplogroup among Mesolithic European Hunter-Gatherers[60], who apparently were either absent from Cyprus or were totally diluted (nearly extinguished) by subsequent migrations. Although the exact origins and migratory patterns of R1a and R1b are still under rigorous investigation, it seems that they are linked to Bronze Age migrations from the Western Eurasian Steppe and Eastern Europe into Southern (including Greece) and Western Europe[61]. Apparently, such migrations (especially as regards R1a) into Cyprus were limited.. The paper also states: In terms of Rst pairwise genetic differences, indicating deeper shared paternal ancestry than the shared haplotype analysis, Greeks appear genetically close to Cypriots So we can't just cherry pick the parts you like out of context, you see? We have to be intellectually honest and give the full picture. Additionally, the paper state However, despite the very low genetic differentiation between Cypriots, Calabrian Italians, and Lebanese, the former appear to differentiate, in terms of Y-haplogroup frequencies, both from Middle Eastern (including Lebanese) and from Southeast European Mediterranean (including South Italians) populations. The main feature distinguishing Cypriots from Lebanese and other Middle Easterners included in our analysis is their much lower frequency of haplogroup J1. This observation clearly suggests that although Cypriots and Lebanese share common paternal roots, the latter received a substantial influx from populations high in J1, probably during the early Arab conquest era (7th cent. AD).. So there are important difference between the Cypriots and Lebanese, yet you do not seem at all interested in that. Why is that? Btw, you did not answer my question: Why the sudden interest in this topic? Could it be that you came here to back Ahmet Q, who clearly stalked Demetrios1993 here, and got into a discussion he seems to be having...difficulty with? As for an RfC, I would like to remind you that nothing gets added without consensus. And if the usual tag team of Balkan accounts of a particular ethnicity shows up and starts to spam the RfC with !votes (as with every RfC you seem involved in), be aware that I will seek as much admin oversight as possible, up to and including arbitration. If I were you, I really wouldn't want to draw attention to this kind of behavior. Khirurg (talk) 02:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Can we agree on writing If this can't be agreed on, I'll ask if it should be included via RfC. Ahmet Q. (talk) 17:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, to give a more complete picture, it really should be In terms of Rst pairwise genetic differences, which indicate deeper shared paternal ancestry than shared haplotypes, Greeks appear genetically close to Cypriots, and equidistant from Greek and Turkish Cypriots. In terms of Y-DNA haplogroups, the major difference between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots is the low frequency of haplogroups, I2, R1a and R1b among Greek Cypriots in comparison to the population of mainland Greece. The biggest differentiation factor between Greek Cypriots and Middle Easterners including the Lebanese is the much lower frequency of haplogroup J1 among Greel Cypriots.. I could possibly agree to something like that. Khirurg (talk) 14:21, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I am ok with the following text: Demetrios1993 (talk) 20:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not involved in the editing discussion, but I think that wrote a good summary.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:48, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The latest text from Demetrios looks good to me. Khirurg (talk) 14:15, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I think this is a good compromise. Ahmet Q. (talk) 00:42, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * For the clueless people on population genetics. Do not edit the genetic study section, let people that actually know about this stuff add the relevant information. Haplogroups do not show actual genetic similarity, they are a very small part of the DNA, The Y-DNA haplogroup is inherited from father to son and does not mix, its simply like surnames, lineages and is subject to founded effects. While Autosomal DNA is the DNA inherited by both parents and only that can show actual genetic similarity. Autosomal DNA studies should always be first. Before any of you make ignorant edits on the genetic sections take a look at this:
 * https://genes-of-the-ancients.blogspot.com/2023/04/ancient-greek-ancestry-and-closest.html
 * The ancient Greeks themselves were closer genetically to the Levant than Anglos, Slavs, Germans etc. Cypriots are the closest people genetically to the Minoans and to the ancient Greeks of West Anatolia.
 * MyHeritage uses mainland Greek DNA samples, mainland Greeks are mixed with Slavs, obviously its not a good proxy for Greek ancestry in Greek Cypriots, its misleading. Itisme3248 (talk) 07:22, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

History Section "Ancient Cyprus"
This section does not seem to have anything to do with the history of the Greek Cypriots. In particular it does not establish a connection between the Greek Cypriot people and that period.

It mentions how archeological evidence suggests an unsystematic Greek settlement of the island which occurred from 1400 BC and how that accelerated further down-the-line but it makes no effort to establish a link between the modern Greek Cypriots and the "Greek" (Mycenaean-Dorian) cultures to which reference is being made.

Have there been any studies that establish a direct, unbroken ethnolinguistic heritage between the Mycenaeans, Dorians and the modern Greek Cypriots?

Maybe in the meantime this section can do with a disclaimer (does one exist?) that says "although this is being used by XXXX to suggest a connection no actual connection has thus far been established"?

Perhaps the ambiguous usage of the word Greek here could also do with a revision? Nargothronde (talk) 07:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

 * Are you proposing that the ancient Cypriot Greek population has nothing to do with its modern descendants? Aearthrise (talk) 19:31, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

 * Not agreeing with any of your suggestions. Greek history in Cyprus began with Mycenaean/Achaean Greeks, and even the genetics of Greek Cypriots show such influence. There is no requirement for them to speak a Mycenaean (Arcadocypriot/Achaean) Greek dialect for such information to be justified in their article. There is an unbroken Greek ethnolinguistic heritage. Also, you misunderstood what the paragraph says about the Dorian invasion in the southern Greek mainland and Aegean. If anything, more information should be added for the Hellenistic/Roman periods, and the early adoption of Christianity in the island. 62.74.15.65 (talk) 19:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * There's a difference between modern Greek history and Greek history as is being referred to here. Mycanaean / Achaean / Dorian etc history began with Mycanaean / Achaean / Dorian etc history. The same as how modern Greek Cypriot history began with modern Greek Cypriot history, which in-turn traces itself to modern Greek history, which in-turn has the same trappings of not being ethnically / linguistically / culturally etc connected to the Mycanaean / Achaean / Dorian etc people. The genetics of the Greek Cypriots also do not show a direct, unbroken, matrilineal or patrilineal link to the Mycanaean / Achaean / Dorian etc people, who, by the way, since we're on the topic of genetics here, were clearly an imported steppe people and culture themselves, not some ethnically homogenous race (and they knew it too). The same trappings unfortunately also apply to the language, which is not even an indicator of heritage as you are trying to assert. If that were true then the Turkish Cypriots would have as much as claim to connection to the ancient Greeks and their language etc as you try to assert the Greek Cypriots as having. Nargothronde (talk) 15:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps one of the other key issues I'm noticing here is that the ethnogenesis of the Greek Cypriot people (and in particular the extent and meaning of any connection with that period) is not a topic that has had any empirical study committed to it. At least as far as I'm aware. But as far as this section goes, bottom line is, there are no sources to substantiate a connection between the Greek Cypriot people and that period. If such a connection can be made and supported with multiple strong, reliable and cross-verifiable sources, then there would be no problem. Nargothronde (talk) 15:21, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * You're starting with the assumption that there was an ethnic-linguistic-cultural group during that period that identifies with a direct unbroken continuity with the modern Greek Cypriots. Nothing in this section supports that. Nargothronde (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

 * No, there is no difference. Modern Greek history is a branch of the broader Greek history. Mycenaeans/Achaeans and Dorians are also part of that same broader Greek history. Even in antiquity, just because someone might have been Ionian and the other Dorian, it doesn't mean they were not ethnically/linguistically/culturally connected, as you seem to be suggesting here, just because the language (for example) of the vast majority of modern Greeks (including Greek Cypriots) originates from Koine Greek, which in turn originates mostly from Attic-Ionic Greek, and not Mycenaean/Arcadocypriot/Achaean or Doric. As for genetics, i don't know about matrilineal haplogroups, but many of the main patrilineal haplogroups presented in the Genetic studies section are also found among ancient Greeks that have been tested. For example, the most common haplogroup of Greek Cypriots is J2a-M410, which is also a common haplogroup among ancient Greeks. There are more haplogroups that they share. Of course, this doesn't mean that all J2a-M410 came from Greeks (some came from Neolithic/Bronze Age Anatolians and Phoenicians no doubt), but when you compare it with autosomal results which are discussed in the same section, it does indicate influence from Mycenaean/Achaean Greeks, among others. Cypriots are included in the modern populations that are least differentiated from Mycenaeans Greeks. Also, they show close affinity to Calabrian (southern Italy) people, with experts saying that it can be explained as a result of a common ancient Greek (Achaean) genetic contribution. By the way, you also don't know what you are talking about when you say that Mycenaeans/Achaeans and Dorians were imported steppe people and culture. You make it sound as if the steppe influence was huge, when it is proven to be very small. For example, according to the article about Mycenaean Greece, Mycenaeans only had ~3.3–5.5% Eastern European ancestry that is attributed to the Indo-Europeans of the steppe. Most of their DNA came from Neolithic farmers, as is the case with modern Greek mainlanders and Greek Cypriots. So no, autosomally at least, there is no huge influence from Indo-Europeans. The influence is mostly linguistic and cultural, but even for these, pre-Indo-European people like Minoans probably had an equally important influence. I am not going to look for sources because this discussion is a waste of time, and it is very obvious that you are not here to improve the article, but to push a certain POV. But as an example, even Britannica says that Greek Cypriots descend from "a mixture of aboriginal inhabitants and immigrants from the Peloponnese who colonized Cyprus starting about 1200 BCE and assimilated subsequent settlers up to the 16th century." By aboriginal inhabitants they probably refer to descendants of Neolithic farmers, and by 1200 BCE Peloponnesian immigrants, they certainly refer to Mycenaean Greeks. 62.74.19.244 (talk) 20:53, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Greek Cypriots


text:
Judiciary of Alaska

The Alaska Court System is the unified, centrally administered, and totally state-funded judicial system for the state of Alaska. The Alaska District Courts are the primary misdemeanor trial courts, the Alaska Superior Courts are the primary felony trial courts, and the Alaska Supreme Court and the Alaska Court of Appeals are the primary appellate courts. The chief justice of the Alaska Supreme Court is the administrative head of the Alaska Court System.

Courts

Alaska has four levels of state courts:

 * the supreme court;
 * the court of appeals;
 * the superior courts; and
 * the district courts.

The district courts are the primary misdemeanor trial courts, the superior courts are the primary felony trial courts although they also sometimes hear appeals from the district courts, and the supreme court and the court of appeals are the primary appellate courts.

Alaska is separated into 4 judicial districts.

Supreme Court
The Alaska Supreme Court is the state supreme court. The supreme court is composed of the chief justice and four associate justices. They choose one of their own members to serve a three-year term as chief justice.

The decisions of the Alaska Supreme Court are binding on all other Alaska state courts, and the only other courts that may reverse or modify those decisions are the United States federal courts. The Supreme Court hears appeals from lower state courts and also administers the state's judicial system. The Alaska Supreme Court is required to hear appeals in civil cases in the first instance and is not able to exercise its discretion whether to consider appeals previously heard by other appellate courts.

Court of Appeals

The Alaska Court of Appeals is an intermediary court of appeals for criminal cases, and is composed of a chief judge and two associate judges. The chief judge of the court of appeals is selected from among the three by the chief justice of the supreme court to serve a two-year term. The court of appeals has jurisdiction to hear appeals from judgments in criminal cases and certain other quasi-criminal cases in which a minor is accused of committing a crime (juvenile delinquency cases), cases in which prisoners are challenging the legality of their confinement (habeas corpus and post-conviction relief matters), and cases involving probation and parole decisions. Also, a defendant in a criminal case who appeals from district court to superior court can ask the court of appeals to review the resulting decision of the superior court, but the court of appeals may, in its discretion, refuse to hear the appeal.

Superior courts
The Alaska superior courts are the trial courts of general jurisdiction. The court hears appeals from the district court.

District courts
The Alaska district courts are lower trial courts that can hear misdemeanor criminal cases and civil cases where the amount in controversy is less than $100,000. They have historically been Alaska's busiest courts. District court judges also issue arrest warrants and search warrants and handle arraignments, and may also serve as coroners, hold inquests, and record vital statistics. In 1992 there were 17 statewide.

Magistrate courts
Magistrates may issue writs, marriage licenses, summonses, arrest and search warrants, and notarizations. They may also handle preliminary proceedings in criminal cases.

Administration
The chief justice of the Alaska Supreme Court is the administrative head of the Alaska court system. An administrative director is appointed by the chief justice with concurrence of the supreme court. The director supervises the administration of all courts in the state. Rules governing the administration of all courts and the rules of practice and procedure for civil and criminal cases are promulgated by the supreme court. The Alaska legislature may change the court's procedural rules by passing an act expressing its intent to do so by a two-thirds majority of both houses.

The Alaska Bar Association is the mandatory association responsible for the admission and discipline process of attorneys and administering the bar examination. It is responsible to the Alaska Supreme Court. It is governed by a board of governors with nine attorneys and three public members.

The Alaska Judicial Council nominates judges for vacancies after accepting applications and surveying Alaska Bar Association members to assess each candidate. The Alaska Judicial Council also solicits opinions from Alaska Bar Association members, police officers, and probation officers concerning judges in retention elections and publish recommendations that appear in voter pamphlets.

The Alaska Commission on Judicial Conduct makes recommendations regarding disqualification, suspension, removal, retirement, and censure of judges. It is composed of 3 judges appointed by judges, 3 lawyers appointed by the Alaska Bar Association, and 3 citizens appointed by the governor and confirmed by the legislature.

In addition, the office of the clerk of the appellate courts supports the work of the supreme court and the court of appeals. The clerk is required to be an attorney. The clerk's responsibilities include monitoring the caseflow through the supreme court and the court of appeals and making recommendations for improvements in appellate procedure. The clerk is also responsible for all case filing and calendaring, publishing opinions, and related tasks. The clerk's office is located in Anchorage, and deputy clerks are located in Juneau, Anchorage, and Fairbanks. Marilyn May was appointed clerk of the appellate courts in October 1998.

Judges
Alaska uses a Missouri Plan merit selection system for judges and justices. The governor appoints a justice or judge from a list of qualified candidates submitted by the Alaska Judicial Council. The governor has 45 days from receipt of the list to make the appointment. All judges and justices in Alaska must stand for judicial retention elections (approval by the voters) on a nonpartisan ballot at the first statewide general election held more than three years after appointment (two for District Court judges), and periodically thereafter. Magistrates are appointed by the presiding superior court judge of a judicial district.

History
The supreme court and the superior courts were established in the Alaska constitution, which took effect upon statehood in 1959. Later that year, the Alaska legislature created a district court for each judicial district and granted power to the supreme court to increase or decrease the number of district court judges. In 1980, to ease the appellate burden on the supreme court, the legislature created a court of appeals.

title: Judiciary of Alaska


text:
User talk:5ko

/Archive/

About your contributions
Здрасти! Благодаря ти за ордена, наистина се радвам, че работата ми се забелязва! Todor→Bozhinov 10:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

integrity
I admire your integrity, 5ko. – Kaihsu 10:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

yamour.com
FYI:
 * meta:Talk:Spam blacklist/Archives/2007/05/Additions: Done

Thanks for hanging in there. -- A. B. (talk) 15:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

 * At the time I thought the user agreed to stop spamming. Pity. --5ko 16:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Bulgarian Scouting
Can you help render "Be Prepared", the Scout Motto, into Bulgarian? Thanks! Chris 03:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

 * It is probably "Бъдете готови". --5ko 03:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! Chris 06:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Books LLC, Alphascript, Betascript, Fastbook Publishing ...
I've removed the following Books LLC and Alphascript references: See: User:Fences and windows/Unreliable sources and Amazon.com controversies. °°Playmobilonhishorse (talk) 01:42, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * LLC Books, Free Wiki Software, ISBN 978-1156996164
 * Frederic P. Miller, Agnes F. Vandome, John McBrewster, History of wikis, ISBN 978-6130050306

 * Thanks, note taken. --5ko (talk) 08:51, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Correct name
Hello sir. I was wondering what's the correct form of the name of Bulgarian singer Andrea. Is it Andrea Teodora or Andrea Teodorova? Thanks in advance! Usuario:BellicIV|BellicIV (Usuario Discusión:BellicIV|discusión) 21:40 1 mar 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.49.174.79 (talk)

 * Andrea is her artistic pseudonyme. Her legal name is Teodora Andreeva (first name, family name). --5ko (talk) 09:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

"New York Time" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect New York Time and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 5 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Certes (talk) 13:34, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

title: User talk:5ko


text:
Gayton

Gayton may refer to:

Places

 * Gayton, Merseyside
 * Gayton, Norfolk
 * Gayton, Northamptonshire
 * Gayton, Staffordshire
 * Gayton Engine, Lincolnshire
 * Gayton le Marsh, Lincolnshire
 * Gayton le Wold, Lincolnshire
 * Gayton Thorpe, Norfolk

People

 * Gayton (surname)
 * Gayton McKenzie, South African politician and businessman
 * Gayton P. Osgood (1797–1861), American politician

Other

 * Gayton Hall, Herefordhire
 * Gayton House, one of the Houses of Harrow School
 * Gayton Windmill (disambiguation)

title: Gayton


text:
NBP

NBP can stand for:

Acronyms

 * Namco Bandai Partners
 * Name Binding Protocol
 * Nathaniel B. Palmer (icebreaker)
 * National Balancing Point (UK)
 * NBP F.C. (National Bank of Pakistan football club)
 * National Bank of Pakistan
 * (National Bank of Poland)
 * National Battlefield Park, a protected area in the United States
 * National Bolshevik Party
 * National broadband plan
 * Neutral body posture
 * Network Bootstrap Program
 * New Bilibid Prison
 * New Black Panthers
 * New Blue Party of Ontario
 * NicerBooks! Publishing, an imprint of VDM Publishing
 * Nobilis Patricius Bruxellensis: a descendant of the Seven noble houses of Brussels with a title of nobility.
 * Nonparametric belief propagation
 * Northern Black Polished Ware
 * Normal blood pressure
 * Normal boiling point
 * NVIDIA Business Platform

Other

 * Nnam language (ISO 639 language code )
 * Nibhapur railway station (train station code ); see List of railway stations in India
 * , a file extension of Mathematica

title: NBP


text:
Talk:Denatured alcohol

( Denaturation: refactor & Dab page)
I've merged in some info that was originally on the denaturation page. However, I moved denaturation to Denaturation (Biochemistry), so refer to the latter for the page history. --Kieran 14:41, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * (Someone did the right thing, and lowercased that "B".) --Jerzy•t 00:59, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Propose merge with Ethanol
“Ethanol” seems to cover denatured alcohol in about the same depth as does this article. Perhaps that content should be moved here, or this content should be moved there. —Fleminra 08:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

 * This page should be moved into ethanol, as that page is a catch-all for the chemical, its uses, applications, etc. Dancarney 15:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I strongly disagree on moving to Ethanol. People who do not know much about shellac and about rubbing alcohol, especially non-English speakers, might have trouble finding this material without a separate entry. I do not believe the "redirect" system is flexible enough to redirect to a subheading; that means a redirect to Ethanol would introduce the danger (to life or health) that a person in possession of denatured alcohol might drink it. You could redirect to rubbing alcohol but that has water in it, while most denatured alcohol does not. Again, for safety reasons (including that instead of isopropyl alcohol other dangerous additives might be used) it is wisest not to redirect to  rubbing alcohol either, lest someone open a can of denatured alcohol containing ketones or acetone (and no water!) and give a massage with it! --Carrionluggage 05:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I totally agree with the statement above, as this article can provide a quick reference what denaturated alcohol is. i think i wouldnt find it in the huge ethanol article. —This unsigned comment is by 83.135.84.147 (talk • contribs) . 14:43, 12 March 2006

 * I agree with "unsigned" above. I found the page by literally Googling "denatured alcohol" and found it a very useful description. —This unsigned comment is by 209.144.249.197 (talk • contribs) .  03:25, 15 March 2006
 * Redirects have been able to target sections and subsections for a long time, maybe even by '06, but even so, where there's a public-safety matter involved, it should be borne in mind that sections are retitled much more casually than articles, which can turn a Rdr to a section into a Rdr to the top of the article. --Jerzy•t 05:45, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

"...most of which are indeed toxic to humans, but not all." Does this mean there are some denatured alcohols that are not toxic to humans, or does this mean that there are some humans to whom denatured alcohol is not toxic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjedicke (talk • contribs) 18:30, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Inaccuracy
From the article:
 * Methanol itself is not toxic; rather, the toxicity is due to the accumulation of its metabolites — formaldehyde and formic acid.

What an irresponsible statement. Somebody needs to advise the CDC that methanol isn't actually toxic after all. --Brianko (talk) 00:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've edited the statement a little... --Thenickdude (talk) 15:11, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Meth BP is 65C while eth is 78C. These temps are sufficiently different for even a crudely made simple still to reduce the meth concentration below 1% with a single pass. This level is much less toxic considering it is mixed with eth. The bad tasting additives should have the property that they both remain in the wash, and contaminate the distillate. Chemicals with very low taste thresholds are used.61.68.161.48 (talk) 02:04, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

The statement is true and reference Alcohol Dehydrogenase Wiki. Enzyme prefers Ethanol over Methanol 7000:1 so in the presence of Ethyl alcohol, the Wood alcohol is "non-toxic" and excreted in urine or exhaled. The deaths attributed were for higher percentage Methyl alcohol to Ethyl alcohol ratios. TaylorLeem (talk) 20:18, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

As seen above, there are a number of false "lead-into-gold" spam/rumors in this regard and the article probably needs to take care of not (unintentionally) propagating them. MeOh and EtOh separation is impossible via simple distillation (which is in no way as simple as using isolated boiling points), nor is their combined mixture in any way safe. cypher_zero_∅ 12:29, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Mouthwash
Often enough, mouthwash is denatured alcohol: the active ingredients in the mouthwash also serve as the denaturants. For example, the formula for S.D. Alcohol 37 is, in itself, fairly close to the formula for Listerine. (Mouthwash is of course diluted with water, and Listerine also contains wintergreen in addition to mint, eucalyptus, and thyme oils.) --121a0012 (talk) 05:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Methylated spirit
The term is "methylated spirit" (singular) not "spirits", because there is only one spirit: the ethanol. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.43.169 (talk) 23:54, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I see it being sold under both names. See prescriptive vs descriptive. Also the "spirit" part is a verb (i.e. "to spirit") presumably originating from the breathing effect of the liquid, so it could be argued this is a conjugation. Either way this claim needs a citation. cypher_zero_∅ 12:37, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Other uses- circuit boards
Common use of Denatured Alcohol is cleaning of electronics. A cell phone that was dropped in water (especially salt water) can be soaked in this solution and in most cases can save a phone.

- ZeusBAP 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeusbap (talk • contribs)

 * But in some cases, water  comes mixed with the alcohol itself to dilute it;  that might be an issue depending on the situation.  You need also be careful because sometimes glues and other stuff in the devices might be soluble or otherwise  react with the alcohol or some of the denaturants.  --201.52.205.103 (talk) 22:46, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

NPOV?
I'm not very familiar with Wikipedia policy, so I won't edit. But, just as an average joe reading this article the statement that says "the United States federal government denaturing program, by some estimates, had killed at least 10,000 people" seemed non-neutral. The assertion that the policy that mandates production of a solvent such that it is potentially lethal "killed" people is the start of a debate on the policy, not a neutral statement of fact.

I think it would be more neutral to write something like "Since the institution of the United States federal government denaturing program, some estimates indicate that at least 10,000 people have died from ingesting denatured alcohol products" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.3.102 (talk) 04:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

British CDA formulation
Changing methanol in the formulation of British CDA to wood naphtha. The source given specifies "wood naphtha", which is further defined later on that page, and http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000263&propertyType=document states "Please note that methyl alcohol (methanol) is not identical to legally defined wood naphtha, or to any approved wood naphtha substitute". -86.50.75.227 (talk) 10:48, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Relevant page history
Some old page history that used to be at the title "denatured alcohol" can now be found at Talk:Denatured alcohol/Old history. Graham 87 14:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Passive Voice
"in countries where laws are written in passive voice" this is clearly some sort of prank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.118.33.220 (talk) 19:53, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Link to denaturing
There is a link to "Denaturation (biochemistry)" at the beginning of the third paragraph of the intro section. This page describe the denaturation of proteins. A quick read of this page shows that the process of the denaturation of proteins described in this paragraph is not related to the denaturing of alcohol. As such, the link is misleading. Someone should remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.80.187.148 (talk) 01:50, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Word usage
Hi, not sure that stating that the additives are there to make it more Poisonous as it sounds like it is done deliberatly. Why would someone want to make ethanol more poisonous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjones4981 (talk • contribs) 15:05, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This does seem stupid and requires a solid citation. Making alcohol poisonous just for the sake of being able to put a "warning: poison" label on it to discourage drinking seems like a criminal act. I suspect that in reality, what happens is that the label is put on without actually making it poisonous.192.139.122.42 (talk) 01:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It is done deliberately, and if either of you were to actually read the article you'd know that hardly the "criminal act" of producers, it's actually a regulatory requirement. PS, new comments go on the bottom of a page. oknazevad (talk) 04:24, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * PPS: No they don't : -- they go, indented another step, right after what you're responding to , or -- if there've been any other subthread(s) started by responding directly to what you're also responding to -- at the same indentation depth as their starts, but lower on the page than all the older ones. --Jerzy•t 00:00 & 10:50'', 31 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh! i wasn't thinking incisively enuf to notice that the placement of that response from me was a pretty good example of what i was describing! :-D --Jerzy•t 11:24, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Denaturing is a common tactic to make ethanol not intended for drink completely unsuitable for drink, and thus taxed differently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.136.219.55 (talk) 05:44, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What i say in the following falls far short of notability, but some notable versions of the ideas have probably come out of notable pens, and could perhaps, after research, provide additional relevant content:
 * Such steps, whether taken out of malice or for profit, is clearly immoral, and BTW has probably been perpetrated more than once by criminals:
 * passing the poisoned liquor off as your competitor's (in order to make your competing goods seem more desirable), or
 * as a way of demonstrating ruthlessness by eliminating a competitor via a presumably agonizing and somewhat slow death, or
 * to realize a higher profit margin (presumably making methanol -- an even simpler compound -- either separately or in a side-reaction accompanying ethanol production, lowers overall production cost) by exploiting drinkers' desire and/or compulsion for the effects of ethanol.
 * An argument (perhaps an anarch-oid one) can be made that
 * using government's monopoly on violence/of the legitimate use of force is not so different from
 * criminally exploiting the rest of the populace,
 * and that there's a moral equivalency between
 * criminals terrorizing victims for profit and
 * governments risking poisoning naifs and reckless fools by denaturing alcohol solely to maintain the practicality of mandating that retailers "skim" on government's behalf, the difference (called excise taxes) between the cost of production and what the traffic will bear.
 * --Jerzy•t 10:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Prohibition era
It was done deliberately by the government to stop people from drinking. http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2010/02/the_chemists_war.html Kortoso (talk) 16:31, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
 * (At the end of this sentence, i'll be done quibbling over the distinction between gov't doing something and requiring companies to do it as a condition of allowing them to do something else.)  Interesting point, except that wasn't so done. Yeah, WP considers that Slate story a worthwhile source on Prohibition. But the accompanying WP article is not on Prohibition, and you  sound overeager in confounding the denaturing of alcohol as a drink-suppression measure with continuing the practice during Prohibition (as they also continued it beyond Prohibition). --Jerzy•t 05:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Miscible vs immiscible
Immiscible liquids are easy to separate, I think what is meant is miscible. But it may be possible to separate miscible liquids by distillation. In any event we need a source for this statement. Martijn Meijering (talk) 10:19, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

@Quercus solaris: you are edit warring. You're not supposed to remove a dubious tag as I reminded you in my edit message. Please restore the tags until we've had a discussion about this. Martijn Meijering (talk) 18:18, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

SD Alcohol 40-B
There is a redirect from [|SD Alcohol 40-B] to here at Denatured alcohol with no explanation as to what "SD Alcohol 40-B" actually is. Could someone knowledgeable please address this? By reading this talk page I get the impression that it may be a US statute for a chemical mixture. 71.178.246.51 (talk) 16:54, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps the redirect would be better sent to here? 71.178.246.51 (talk) 16:59, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the redirect for SD Alcohol 40-B, which now links to a section here and has a brief description (see the list of SDAs in the external links section for other examples). Klbrain (talk) 19:44, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Citation moved
The citation for ""New Zealand has removed methanol from its government-approved "methylated spirits" formulation."" Has a link to a nonexistent page — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellurium128 (talk • contribs) 01:22, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Petrochemical product?
Should it not be mentioned that denatured alcohol is a petrochemical product? --Luka1184 (talk) 20:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

 * It's not. Many denaturants are available; one of the formulas given in the US Code of Federal Regulations is literally the formula for original flavor Listerine. 121a0012 (talk) 01:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

See wiki Alcohol Dehydrogenase
Typically denature with 10% Metanol. Pear wine is ~10% ethanol and 1% methanol (10% denatured) and is not considered toxic. Methanol toxicity is due to oxidation to Formaldehyde by the Alcohol Dehydrogenase enzyme. Fortunately human Alcohol Dehydrogenase prefers ethyl alcohol to methyl by 7000:1, so in essence Ethanol is the antidote to Methanol poisoning. The same enzyme also causes the damage from Ethylene Glycol poisoning. TaylorLeem (talk) 20:08, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It would be useful to find a source for the preference of LADH for EtOH vs MeOH. Preferably some review.  There is this: https://web.archive.org/web/20111005043548/http://www.antizol.com/mpoisono.htm.  The problem with your logic is that after the formaldehyde has been generated, ethanol (EtOH) has no effect other than to prevent further formaldehyde from forming.--Smokefoot (talk) 00:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Article Title
This is one of many articles on Wikipedia where the title is a specifically US term, and it opens with a long list of countries that use a different term. The article would read better if the article was just about methylated spirits, and parenthetically menetions that they're called 'denatured alcohol' in the United States, so I think the title should be changed, and cross-references updated. (Some US editors often try to argue that the majority of the world's English speakers use the US term, but that's unlikely to be true in this case, because they're probably called metholated spirits in India. They definitely are in Malaysia.) MikZ (talk) 17:42, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Mentioning of 2016 Irkutsk poisoning
Since Russian consumption of denatured alcohol is mentioned in the article, I think I should also provide a mention of the 2016 Irkutsk mass methanol poisoning, and a link to its Wikipedia page. I am new to Wikipedia so please anyone let me know if this seems appropriate and I will do it. 35drake (talk) 20:51, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Denatured alcohol