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Talk:Analog stick

Edith Dodgers

Wasn't the Sega Saturn 3D controller the first analog controller?
I may be wrong, but I was always under that impression. You are wrong. The vectrex had it in the 80's and the atri 5200 had one. Laso, the nintendo 64 had it one month before the saturn analog controller came out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.233.100.129 (talk) 17:23, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

"Special gloves"?

 * I remember hearing about that too, but it might be an urban myth. If I find a source I'll post it up. Also, it's a good idea to pop the fabric cover of an earphone over the top of the N64 stick to improve comfort in general. Sockatume 04:03, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

 * The Mario Party series article lists a source: http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2000/mar/mar08a_00.html. MIT Trekkie 21:29, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

Revolution Controller
On 16 September 2005, Nintendo announced that their upcoming system, the Nintendo Revolution would not have any analog sticks standard, but instead, featured a gyroscopic sensor for three-dimensional detection. Is it accurate to say that the analog stick on the nunchaku-style expasion isn't included standard?

If it's not fronwed upon I changed gyroscopic to accelerometer for accuracy.

History does not go far enough
Late 70s dedicated game machines - such as the Telejogo - had analog sticks. I have one of those, it's really a non-self-centering analog stick. Stormwatch 21:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * By all means add it if necessary. --Thaddius 23:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

History of Analog stick is not a history of the dualshock controller
The history section goes into great detail about the dualshock controller, describing rumble features (or lack thereof) and even stating the first game to require two sticks. This seems to be irrelevant info. It's a history of the analog stick, not the dualshock controller. There's a page for that already. If no on minds, I'll remove the info that doesn't seem to belong. --Thaddius 14:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Doom127, you revert my edit ad put all that stuff back. Huzah. now I want you to realize that I was taking out the rumble aspects of the article becuase this is about the Analog stick, not the history of the dualshock controller and it's rumble features. I'm going to go ahead and re-edit it. Hopefully you'll read in here before reverting it back. --Thaddius 22:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

 * If you're going to make changes to an article, please try and keep the article as accurate as you left it. There were changes to the analog aspects, such as the removal of flightstick mode. Please remain civil. --[[Image:Tinyducksig.jpg|20px]] Daniel Davis 01:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Like I said, it used to be a detailed descrition on the vibration functions in the dual shock controller. Just cause I deleted irrelevant info you cared about doens't mean you have to have a hissy fit. I stated my intents here before doing it, no one objected. So just calm down and make it more accurate, keeping vibration technologies out of there. If people want to know the history of the dual shock controller, they can click on the link to it. Please remeber that this is an article on the analog stick and keep things relevant to the title. --Thaddius 16:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Confusing Article
The way this article is written, it makes it sound like all "analog" sticks work on potentiometers. This couldn't be further from the truth. As the reference links show, many modern sticks work on the same digital photocell technology that mice use. Unfortunately, this confusion has spilled over into the N64 article, making its information on the analog stick outright wrong. I'll attempt to fix these issues as soon as I can. :) Jbanes 15:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

 * If you're going to make significant edits, make sure you use reliable references to avoid edit conflicts. Be bold. :D Ex-Nintendo Employee 22:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

PSP?
From the article: "physical instability of the system that would result if the player were to use both analog sticks at the same time." How would the system be unable to stand having two sticks? This just doesn't seem right. Anyone think that someone should be deleting this? Ilikefood 21:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree, it does seem unsourced. Ex-Nintendo Employee 00:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it means that it would be hard to hold the PSP if both your thumbs are on the sticks, but that still doesn't seem correct anyways... Darth Walsh (talk) 05:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Computer sticks
The entire article is naively console-centric for an entry which is redirected from "analog joystick." Analog joysticks (yes, joysticks. where did this joystick-means-digital idea come from?) have a rich history on home computers--and industrial computers for that matter--that goes back way before Sony's 1995 flightstick. Surely the ubiquitous Kraft sticks of the 1980s deserve a mention, and what of the bizarre springless pseudo-mouse stick on the CoCo--among many others. If the "joystick" article is meant to bear that weight, then I suggest that an "analog joystick" search should redirect there instead of here. This article is fine for what it is--a history of analog stick controllers on home videogame consoles--but it is far from the whole story.75.64.178.63 11:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

 * There is a paragraph about analog sticks in the 70s and 80s, but I agree that it's not detailed enough. If you have any resources, feel free to add to the article. Ex-Nintendo Employee 00:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Analog Stick vs Joystick + Sony Bias
The start of this article claims that analog sticks are sometimes mistakenly called joysticks, then later in the article starts to talk about analog joysticks. The whole issue needs to be cleaned up, as it makes the article very confusing to read.

Also this whole article seems a little Sony Centric. Pretty much half the history article is dedicated to Sony, the flightstick, and the dualshock revisions, most of which is not particularly important in terms of the history of the analog stick.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to change the article but I think it should be addressed. Qeee1 13:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Cleaned it up a few days ago. POV is now more neutral; originally it was way too Sony-slanted. Kflester 16:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Stick Range
Just an interesting little detail: Some sticks have a range on both axis from [-1.0, 1.0], thus providing a square movement area, while others are restricted to sqrt(x^2 + y^2) <= 1.0, thus providing a circular movement area (moving stick full up and full to the right gives x=0.707, y=0.707=sqrt(0.5)). The later seems to be the logical choice for 3d character control in a game like Mario64, since it gives a maximum walk speed of 1.0 in all direction, while the other seems more logical for flight games and such, where it might be important to be able to go full 'left', even when already full 'up'. Might have some historic relevance, but then it might be just an to obscure detail for the article. -- Grumbel 20:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect sentence
However, the Wii Classic Controller does feature two analog sticks to allow for proper control in games from its Virtual Console service.

I don't think this is the real reason the classic controller has two sticks. The most advanced virtual console games are N64, and you only need one stick to play that. Maybe someone could clear that up if they agree? Darth Walsh (talk) 05:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Nintendo 64's analog stick isn't analog!
Does this deserve a mention? True analog sticks use potentiometers to measure movement on an infintesimal level of degree. But the N64 stick, on the contrary, used a mechanism that was digital, much like mechanical mice do. This has not only been confirmed in Wikipedia's N64 controller article itself, but also is explicitely stated in two reference articles- such as this paragraph from A History of Controllers: "But Nintendo's thumbstick differed from previous designs in two important ways. First, it wasn't actually analog. Analog joysticks like the 5200's had too many moving parts and were prone to breaking. Nintendo's stick was digital, but provided enough levels of sensitivity that the distinction was moot." Shouldn't this distinction be made, if the N64's controller wasn't REALLY an analog joystick? 75.165.103.122 (talk) 14:00, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Nintendo 64's analog
Whether a control stick is analog or not depends on how the term "analog" is defined in the context of controllers. There are two ways the term can relate:

1. Analog movement/control - a device that can send a range of values from a given input.

2. Analog signal - a signal capable of varying throughout a range of electrical value.

The Atari 5200 was both of these. The Nintendo 64 and later consoles, were "analog movement/control", with an optical/digital signal.

It seems appropriate to classify any input device with "analog movement/control" as an "analog stick" MachineKeebler (talk) 06:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Regardless of your motives/beliefs about analog, you've been simply reverting the page to a version made months ago, erasing improvements to it that extend far beyond a description of the method of analog movement. Stop. 75.172.46.117 (talk) 08:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I concur. 98.247.24.27 (talk) 17:47, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * on most of the more recent systems, doesn't any analog signal needs to be converted to digital at some point in the process? --TiagoTiago (talk) 01:57, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Stop Reverting This Page!
I'm not entirely certain just what is motivating the folks who insist on reverting the page to a version made MONTHS ago, but I can certainly say a few things about it. The first, of course, is that doing so pares the article down to such a level that it culls it down to a level of almost no informational value. For example, "the first" analog stick was not on the Atari 5200, it was the VC 4000. Additionally, by completly eliminating every reference to Sony, the article creates its own "facts". That is- it erases the fact that Sony's analog sticks were not created as a response to Nintendos, but instead were developed independently, from a branching set of technologies stemming from its earliest flightstick onwards. The blanking of information also removes intermediaries, like the Vectrex. In short, the article version someone keeps putting it back to makes it look like there were only two analog joysticks ever produced in gaming- the Atari one and Nintendos one, doesn't bother to give ANY information about it, and in general is just a very terrible article version. I will reiterate- please stop putting the page back to that version, and observe Wikipedias content polices regarding blanking. If you have any concerns about OR, then you may certainly address it, but from what I've seen, the individuals who have been shoving the page back to that early version have made absolutely NO attempt to discuss it on this talk page at all- note the discussion that was attempted as far back as early march in an attempt to politely talk about it. 75.165.117.203 (talk) 14:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I believe a talking section on this is much needed. Looking back on past history of this article there seems to be a difference of opinion. The article is full of various info, but I understand why is has been reverted back several times.

 * A lot of the info falls into either unsourced material, and not suitable for Wikipedia, or info that is better suited to another article in Wikipedia. Unsourced info can be immediately taken out under Wiki guidelines. However, even if a lot of the info was sourced, it is better suited for a different article. This article is on the analog stick, not a report on Sony's analog controllers. There are already articles on all major consoles and their respective controllers. If there wasn't, everything related to the analog stick would belong in this article, including each consoles specific history timeline related to it. But luckily, we can write article on each specific subject. Because a lot of the info is specific to Sony, it might be better suited to the specific articles the info pertains to. Some of this info, with sources, would be good additions to these other articles.

 * This article should describe its subject, note when/where it was introduced, and when major advances were made. The section that mentions the N64 and 5200 controller seems to be a section for notable events in the analog stick history: when it was first introduced, and the point in time where not only it was first used as a thumbstick, but also where every console after it had one. These are valid, objective points. They are not meant to demean Xbox or Sony, or claim that without the N64 controller they would have never existed; they are just facts. 3D gaming made all controllers go to analog control, Nintendo was just first.

 * As far as the Vectrex, I have one, and collect many old consoles. It is essentially a dpad with a stick protrusion. It gives no analog control.

 * Wikipedia is meant for verified, objective, sourced content thats informative and relevant to the article subject. An article with more words in it, doesn't mean its better. JokerRiddler (talk) 02:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Point by point, explaining why it should be reverted:
 * 1: "This article is on the analog stick, not a report on Sony's analog controllers."
 * There are only three mentions of Sony in the entire article. One of them is only in the context of the Dual Analog setup (mentioned alongside other controllers). The other two are small mentions within the appropriate lineage of analog sticks, alongside the evolutionary line, with the same focus on Sega and Nintendo given. In other words, your claim that Sony has been given priority is baseless and that is why THAT portion of your edit needs to be reverted.
 * 2: "This article contains a lot of unsourced info"
 * Name it. Point out anything that needs to be sourced in this article, because all the contentious points, as far as I've seen, have been sourced.
 * 3. "3D gaming made all controllers go to analog control, Nintendo was just first."
 * Nintendo created neither three-dimensional controllers, nor did they create analog control. There is no "Nintendo is first" here, and that, right there is the crux of the matter. We have an individual who is hell bent on trying to put forward the incorrect assumption (the lie) that Nintendo was "first" in any of these things, when in reality it was a gradual independent evolution of the technology. Nintendo did no "firsts" here, and the article as he puts it forward gives the incorrect impression that it did.
 * 4. "As far as the Vectrex, I have one, and collect many old consoles. It is essentially a dpad with a stick protrusion. It gives no analog control."
 * That's just a lie, and I can prove it.
 * [] That there is an analog thumbstick with full 360 degree control, arguably the very first. Not nearly a "d pad with a stick portrusion".
 * You know what though, to heck with it. I've kept the article full of verified, accurate information and you guys just want to wreck it and make it into a lie? I'm tired of trying to make it right. You go have yourselves your little article. I'm sick of trying to keep it a quality article. Do go and put in something like "Nintendo was the first to do this and this and this"- go right ahead- isn't that what Wikipedia is famous for? It's not about who's right, it's about who the heck wants to put up with headaches long enough to have whatever page version they "want" to go forward! So whatever. Enjoy your lie. 98.247.24.27 (talk) 01:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've personally owned a Vectrex and remember several games in which the player's action varied with the degree to which the stick was manipulated. In fact I was fairly shocked not to find it on this list, especially since Vectrex mentions it.

dual analog controls
Wasn't the dual analog control scheme for console [FPS] games pioneered by Nintendo as well? I'm pretty sure GoldenEye 007 was the first console game that could be played this way by simultaneously using two N64 pads. (terrible revisionist Sony bias all the way through, by the way; it's sad to see those plagiarists getting away with stealing by spinning the gullible masses time and again – PlayStation Move, anyone?) – ὁ οἶστρος 13:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd hardly call it revisionist - more likely just pure ignorance. I didn't know until now that GoldenEye could be played with 2 controllers per person (checked it out on Project64 and it's certainly true). That said, are you sure it came before any on the PS1 did? Anyway, calm down - you sound an awful lot like a rabid Nintendo fanboy (not saying you are, but that's how you sound). I don't think ANYBODY looks at the PlayStation Move and doesn't think Wii-remote rip-off, even if it is a better implementation (it has certainly been shown to be more accurate than even Wii motion plus).  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 14:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, having actually read the article, I see no Sony bias what-so-ever. No-where does it mention that SONY innovated dual-analog control for FPSs (as you seem to be suggesting), only that theirs was the first controller which had two sticks. The only mention of a specific dual-stick game isn't even an FPS, but Ape escape.  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 17:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Why is this article needed? Merge with Joystick
An analog stick is just a type of joystick, so why does it need a separate article? Joysticks can be analog or digital, and this article could easily be pared down and added as a section to Joystick. Asher196 (talk) 15:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems fair to me, as long as a distinction is made between analog thumbsticks (which is what this article refers to) and other analog joysticks (flight sticks and the like). Also, analog stick should redirect to the analog thumbstick section (rather than just the article).  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 16:43, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I completely disagree. The difference between a simple joystick and the extensive history of the analog stick would create a massive, bloated article of low quality. There is enough differential between the two that it doesn't warrant merging. You might as well merge D-Pad, Game Controller, Joystick, Analog Stick, Light Gun, Dual Shock and Rumble Pak into one heaving Video Game Controller article. 75.165.122.44 (talk) 12:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Extensive history? An analog stick is simply a joystick with a short handle.  How does that warrant it's own article?  Asher196 (talk) 12:20, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Technologically it is just an analog joystick with a short "handle" but the implementation is what makes it notable. I am pretty much neutral on the issue (it could work either way as long as we're careful), but I think you are over-simplifying it a little Asher196. It has it's own development history, distinct uses (which can neither be attributed to analog or digital joysticks) and as a control method is just as distinct from analog flight-sticks etc as d-pads are from digital joysticks - the difference being the form factor as technologically d-pads and digital sticks are the same as well. I think there is certainly a danger that if a merge isn't done properly that the resulting article become bloated. Likewise, there is a very real possibility that the quality would be adversely effected. As both articles stand, there is no way the analog stick could be shoehorned in, and it would require a significant reworking of both articles. If the Joystick article is left pretty much untouched (i.e. only info on thumbsticks added rather than a reworking) then thumbsticks simply wouldn't fit and would likelly be whittled down to something similar to the Arcade stick section. The current analog stick article has a significant history section, which the joystick article doesn't have, but is certainly notable. Basically, I would support a merge, but only if the joystick article were completely re-written to accommodate the entire (or close to) analog stick article since it is all relevant/notable.  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 16:05, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Would we then also merge the other "stick" articles into joystick, like Dual Analog, Dual Shock and Nintendo 64 Controller? Seems like a slippery slope we're talking about. Certainly simple individual controllers are less worthy of their own articles than an entire multi-console spanning technology. FluffyPug (talk) 18:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if we do merge analog stick into joystick, merging articles about specific controllers is barely even related. I think you are simply trying to make a point about the slippery slope, but such an article does exist: Gamepad. However, it is a sort of overview article which covers the general topic of gamepads, while some of the more important ones (or simply ones which have a lot of info about them) rightly so also have articles of their own, such as the ones you mentioned. Actually, looking at the articles has got me thinking; this is a very similar case. Analog stick can easily retain it's own article while having a significant mention in the joystick article (similar to the DualShock having a mention in the gamepad article, which likewise has a mention in the even more overarching game controller article). It has also made me think, "wait a minute, the joystick article is about joystick controllers, NOT JOYSTICKS" if you see my distinction. The analog thumbstick can be seen as a type of input, while the things referred to in the joystick article are types of controller based around a joystick design. Joystick can easily refer to either the stick part or the whole controller, and I feel it refers to the latter in this case (in which case merging the two would be ludicrous).  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 21:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. my position has changed to object for the distinction between the type of controller, and the controller input method.  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 21:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Alphathon. The Analog stick article refers to a type of control found on a Game controller, just as D-pad does, while the Joystick article refers to a type of Game controller, as does Gamepad. RamenFueled (talk) 09:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

This is even worse than I thought. Why are there separate articles for Gamepad, D-Pad, Analog stick, Game controller, Dual Shock, etc., when they are all essentially just parts of a game controller?Asher196 (talk) 20:15, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I really hope you aren't being serious. All these things are clearly distinct and grouping them all together would be completely stupid. If you look at all the articles pertaining to gaming input devices and still think that they could all be condensed into a single article without losing info or creating a sprawling incomprehensible mess I'd like to know how. You might as well say "Why do all the consoles have individual articles?" because grouping them together would be about as concise.  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 20:34, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm only being mildly serious to provoke discussion. I just don't see how Analog stick has enough information to warrant it's own article.  I think it should be a section of Game controller, along with D-Pad.  I see now that merging with Joystick probably isn't the best solution. Asher196 (talk) 16:16, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not. Game controller has it's own set of problems- it's bloated, poorly laid out and is essentially just a collection of lists at the moment, linking to better articles. Trying to shove the entire history of analog stick development (which spans literally the entire history of game controllers) would only add to that conundrum. FluffyPug (talk) 07:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with FluffyPug; Game controller is bad enough as it is. Not only that but adding either D-pad of Analog Stick to the Game controller article is just as out of place as the Joystick article; Joystick is about a type of controller and Game controller is essentially a list of types of controller, so while mildly more relevant (since game controller is non specific) it has the same problem. Preemptively, Gamepad is no better so they can't go there either. Also you say "I see now that merging with Joystick probably isn't the best solution". The best solution to what? I honestly don't think there is a problem with it at the moment.  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 08:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If I were to remove the unsourced content, there would be very little article here.Asher196 (talk) 02:00, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If by that you mean remove every sentence or phrase that does not have a citation on it, then yes, it would be very short. I'm not sure I see your point though; the game controller article is mess regardless of the citation in this one. Not everything requires citation anyway and much of the uncited info can be cited from within linked articles or is clear fact (for example citation is not needed to say that PlayStation analog controllers have 2 sticks - it is patently obvious by looking at one). Dates etc should indeed be cited, but can likely be easily found. If you are threatening to delete all uncited text then think again. That is not a good way to make encyclopaedic content, which is the purpose of citation...and all other wikipedia rules for that matter. That is why we have a "this article need citations" template at the top of the article, so that it may be improved.  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 02:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Recent edits by anonymous IPs
Greetings all. Recently several unregistered IPs have been editing the page back and forth, seemingly in some kind of edit war (it is unclear how many parties are involved since many IPs may correspond to a single editor - no sock-puppetry implied; IPs are subject to change, and the editors weren't necessarily in the same place every time). This seems to have mainly been to do with dates but also involved other things such as bloat and POV (essentially style). In order to prevent further disruption to the article, I feel it should be discussed here and a consensus reached as to what to. Much of the dispute involving dates has been resolved (ref provided) but the style conflict appears to remain.

At this point, the conflict appears to be between myself and 208.115.94.237, but as I said it is difficult to tell who IPs correspond to (for now we shall assume this IP is distinct from the others).

Following the recent edits/reverts, I decided to go in a try to provided a (more) neutral version including dates provided by the other editors. I also attempted to avoid any confusion caused by the language used. Such changes include small changes such as removal of "obviously" from the phrase "used a self-centering analog stick, obviously a precursor to the modern design", but also larger ones such as changing this
 * "In June of 1996, Nintendo introduced a thumb-operated control stick on their Nintendo 64 controller with Super Mario 64. While it was still a digital stick, not an analog one, (one that operated on the same principles as a mechanical computer mouse), the Nintendo 64's Control stick still allowed for a great deal of varying levels of pressure and near-360-degree control, translating into far more precise movements than was possible with a D-pad. (Incidentally, the later port of Super Mario 64 to the d-pad-only Nintendo DS portable system in Super Mario 64 DS was criticized by some for imprecise control due to lack of an analog stick on the Nintendo DS.)"

...to this.
 * "Initially announced for release on April 21, 1996, Nintendo released their Nintendo 64 controller on June 24, 1996REF. The new controller included a thumb-operated control stick which, while a digital stickREF (the stick operated on the same principles as a mechanical computer mouse), still allowed for a varying levels of movement and near-360-degree control, translating into far more precise movements than were possible with a D-pad."

Where REF represents a citation

Overall, I feel this (including other, unmentioned edits) is more neutral and flows better, but anyone can obviously disagree - I am but one person and not the definitive authority on style :).

Also note that I am still not 100% happy with my version (things like the repetition of "movement"), although overall I think it is better.

Any and all outside input is welcome and I hope this is resolved soon (I really don't want any more disruption to the article, and it is in everybody's interest to resolve this quickly, unless some anterior motive is at play (not that I am implying/insinuating anything)).

P.S. No comments left in the edit description (or here for that matter) were intended to be inflammatory, so I apologise if anything I said was misconstrued as such.

 Alphathon TM ( talk ) 09:42, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

 * The only thing I'm scratching my head about at the moment is whether or not the article should be using "introduced" dates (that is, the date the device was first announced or shown at a trade show), or the dates the devices were made availiable to the general public. One side keeps going back and forth on this- one seems to want to keep the introduced date of the N64's controller and erase the introduced date of the Playstation ones, and the other side seem to want the opposite- to keep the introduced date of the Playstation controllers while erasing the N64 one. So is our consensus to use the introduced dates of these things, or the dates they were actually made availiable to the public? FluffyPug (talk) 11:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know TBH, I think both are useful if they can be verified (although including both bight cause a bit much clutter and confusion). The only real difference is perception really - many people seem to think that if one company announced it first (introduced) then it was their idea and the other company "stole" it. The release dates help elevate this by at least giving some indication of how long certain tech has been in R&D (it is certainly possible that the first to announce was actually the second to come up with the idea etc). I think basically the war was mostly fanboy-based, with both sides claiming neutrality (and quite possibly believing it), so with such a vandalism/non-neutral POV prone topic, it's probably best to give both (as long as we can find a way to so without turning the article into a list of dates).  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 12:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

My feeling is that release dates only should likely be kept, as they're more concrete and better known. My only reason for bringing in N64's controller unveiling at Shoshinkai 95 was to illustrate it's influence on the direction Sega and Sony then took with their controllers in response (which may not be apparent from the actual release dates). But maybe a neutral statement to such should be mading reference instead, the sourced 1up article in the N64 paragraph already makes specific mention of that. "And by showing off the new controller with a polished (but not complete) version of Mario 64, Nintendo showed the killer app that made the thumbstick more than a gimmick. Sony and Sega saw the writing on the wall: next generation meant 3D, and 3D meant analog. They immediately set out to create analog joysticks for their consoles. Sega actually moved so quickly on their design that they beat Nintendo to market in the US (though not worldwide)." 68.173.229.242 (talk) 12:25, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * But they weren't "responses", not in a verifiable sense. From a buisness standpoint, You don't go from having no prototype at all to a completely new controller, with completely new (and heretofore untested) technology with a set of games to match for that company in such a small period of time. Nintendo's thumbstick was a completely different optical technology from Sony or Segas (it used digital optics) instead of potentiometers, and did not originally incorporate rumble- something the first incarnations of the Dual Analog pad did, which that 1Up source doesn't mention. The Analog Stick article has been, to this point, very careful not to insert inferences about any company copying or imitating any other company, and it's important that incorrect inferences don't get inserted (it's POV, after all). Quite frankly, that 1Up article has some very questionable statements in it, which leads me to question its credibility. For example, the writer opinionates on the PS1 that "On the original PlayStation, the second stick was seen as a useless gimmick." This is, of course, very far from the truth, as that second stick was used extensively. Unless we have a source that is more reputable than what appears to be an article written ten years after the fact by someone with no first-hand experience in the matter, I would advise that the language remain neutral. I should add that, according to Sony's own press releases, they had been working on dual analog stick technology (using the same potentiometer based mechanisms) since at least August of 1995, before it was demonstrated at Shoshinkae. This is why the DA Controller can switch into FlightStick mode- it's just a matter of modifying the axis range. FluffyPug (talk) 13:07, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

 * To be fair, it should be fairly easy to find dates for when they were first introduced - generally speaking stuff like this is done at trade shows (E3, Tokyo Game Show etc), which have well defined and catalogued dates. If a controller is announced in a press-release then it might be harder, but both should be concrete enough. Remember, this is an encyclopaedia - it doesn't matter how well known something is, because if someone is looking it up in an encyclopaedia they are looking for things they don't know (or for verification/clarification on what they already "know"). If we do get introduction dates, it would be fairly easy to reword the article to allow them in I think. For example this
 * "Initially announced for release on April 21, 1996, Nintendo released their Nintendo 64 controller on June 24, 1996REF. The new controller included a thumb-operated control stick..."
 * could become something like this
 * "On -DATE- at -EVENT-, Nintendo announced their Nintendo 64 controller which included a thumb-operated control stick. Initially set for release on April 21, 1996, it was delayed until June 24REF".
 * Honestly, the only problem I see with having both is bloat, but that more than makes up for preventing more warring and can probably be made to benefit the article.

 * Also, there is a problem with statements such as the one you brought up 68.173.229.242 - they fall under original research, which Wikipedia has a policy against. Unless citation can be provided that the N64 controller made Sony and Sega make their controllers (such as execs from both companies stating it as such) it cannot be included. The fact that some guy said so in an article is not enough, unless he worked for both companies. Also, I'm not sure it's even true. Sony's Dual Analog Controller was "introduced" in 1995 according to the Wikipedia article (although the citation provided seems rather ambiguous and probably actually refers to the FlightStick)
 *  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 13:33, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Understood as to the policy against original research, though press articles are really the only source I'm able to find. As Japanese firms are unlikely to speak out against competitors directly (it's generally considered a taboo from what I understand) I doubt we'll ever hear any confirmed of direct influence from the engineers at Nintendo, Sega or Sony. Another note, reading the previous talk section though about the concern over joysticks in the article, and the article itself centering on thumbsticks, I'm a little confused as to why the PS Analog Joystick/Flightstick is given a full paragraph here.  It seems to be the only set top Joystick mentioned in the history section given it's own separate paragraph in fact (despite Sega's analog Mission Stick releasing earlier) and seems to actually go against the thrust of the article.  Should it be removed?  Maybe a mention reworked into the Dual Analog pad paragraph (as same for Sega's Mission Stick in their 3D Controller paragraph)?  Or maybe an pre and post thumbstick history distinction can be made, though the article seems to center on thumbsticks specifically in the introduction? (68.173.229.242 (talk) 18:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC))
 * Yeah, I see the problem with the Japanese firms, but if no suitable source can be found, it has to be left out of the article unfortunately. As for the joystick, yeah, it probably should be integrated into the Dual Analog somehow, maybe along the lines of the Dual Analog uses the same potentiometer technology used on earlier Sony's Analog Joystick released on -DATE-. It certainly should have a mention (as should Sega's) but only to show how it contributed to the development of the thumbstick, rather than as a separate paragraph.  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 18:36, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I totally agree, and the common link between both flightsticks and their later analog pads seems pretty apparent in my opinion, so both should likely be mentioned and integrated there. Both had cross-compatible games too, though I'm having trouble finding an official list of specific titles for the Mission Stick, only random references to titles like Panzer Dragoon.   (68.173.229.242 (talk) 18:49, 30 June 2010 (UTC))

Reworking the history section
How about this for the N64 paragraph?  On November 24, 1995 at the 7th annual Shoshinkai Software ExhibitionREF, Nintendo announced their Nintendo 64 controller (then known as the Ultra 64 controller) which included a thumb-operated control stick. Initially scheduled for release on April 21, 1996 but later delayed until June 24REF, the stick was digital rather than true analog (operating on the same principles as a mechanical computer mouse)REF but still allowed for a varying levels of input in both the x and y axes and near-360-degree control, translating into far more precise movements than were possible with a D-pad. Still a little clunky I think, but getting there. Anyone care to share any info on the Dual Analog (not sure I trust the ref in its article - too ambiguous) and Sega 3D controller?  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 16:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * On the surface, the press release you mention might seem ambiguous. However, if you check the date, you'll notice it was published on August 31, 1995. This places it's publication date many many months after the release of the larger PlayStation Analog Joystick. Since there was not another Sony brand analog joystick released or announced between the press release date and the PlayStation 96-97 Expo (where the Dual Analog was shown), this press release can only refer to said Dual Analog. The controller was obviously just delayed. For a really really long time. FluffyPug (talk) 00:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Honsetly I didn't spend too much time thinking about it, but it makes sense now you mention it. I haven't gone back to check (I can't assume you're telling the truth when we're talking about ref validity now can I :P), but while I think a clearer ref would be preferable, that one will do if nothing else can be found. It's times like this I wish people didn't have the habit of calling gamepads joysticks (etc); term ambiguity FTL.  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 00:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Everyone- Here's the reference from the Dual Analog pad article. Feel free to peruse. It comes from the 1995 editions of Game Zero magazine, established in 1994. Sorry about being such a thorn in your side you all. 24.19.87.35 (talk) 01:05, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

No, I believe the GameZero article in question is referencing the Analog Joystick (by name even) rather than the Dual Analog Pad, it's specifically talking about the US release for the console, games and peripherals in the section dated August 21,1995. Fluffypug, you seem to be confusing the Japanese release date with an article centered on the American release. (68.173.229.242 (talk) 03:41, 30 June 2010 (UTC))
 * Number 1- the ID name is "FluffyPUG", not "Pig". I do not appreciate you using my nickname in a disparagaing manner. Make note that insults such as that go directly against Wikipedia's policies. Secondly, you're just plain lying when you say it's referenced "by name"- they only say that "a sony brand analog joystick" will be availiable. They don't use the official term (which all press releases do, if you noticed). If they had been referencing the Sony Playstation Analog Joystick (as you'll notice they did with the MultiTap, a term Sony coined). The Playstation Analog JoyStick was something that had been out for a rather long time and which was all over the press circuit, they would not be referencing it as simply "a Sony brand" item, they would have used the same terminology. FluffyPug (talk) 12:17, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * FluffyPug, my sincere apologies, I assure you that misspelling of your handle was a mistake on my part and not an insult. And it has been corrected.  As to the article, you seem to be making multiple assumptions in order to rationalize that the GameZero article must be referring to the Dual Analog.  They're clearly referring to US dates specifically in the article, and the PlayStation console hadn't even seen US release at that point.  Indeed, I can't find any reference to the PS Analog Joystick even releasing in Japan by that point, and sourced data from Sony themselves indicates the opposite  can you cite any reference as to such?  I also assure you my intent is not to "lie" and admit taking some offense to be told I am.  Also, multitap was a common term by that point, which I believe Hudson actually coined for their original multi-out controller extension for the PC Engine in the late 1980s.  Additionally relevant, I've just found reference to an analog joystick from Sega released for Saturn on September 29,1995, meaning it predates all the controllers in question for N64, PS1 and Saturn in the article.  When the article is unlocked, it should likely be added ahead of the PS Analog Stick, who's only reference to release seems to be April 26, 1996 .(68.173.229.242 (talk) 12:54, 30 June 2010 (UTC))
 * In regards to your name, whatever happened to assume good faith, another Wikipedia policy. I didn't detect any malcontent from 68.173.229.242, and "Fluffypig" could easily be a mistake (it's an easy mistake to make - I'm sure a fluffy pig would be quite a cute animal) or a typo ("u" is next to "i" on qwerty keyboards after all). If it was used that way as an intentional insult then fair enough, but still, AGF. I would agree that it was not mentioned by name, but to be fair the words used do describe a stick better than a gamepad, so he/she's probably right. As I said above, it is at the very least ambiguous.  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 12:34, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * To be fair to you, Alphathon, I will assume the best and accept that the reference is ambiguous. Since it doesn't reference it by name, we should avoid it. FluffyPug (talk) 12:38, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Dual Analog Paragraph
 On April 25, 1997REF, Sony released a similar analog stick equipped controller, known as the Dual Analog. It was based on the same potentiometer technology that was used in the Dual Analog Flightstick, which had been released a year earlier. The controller featured dual plastic concave thumbsticks (Nintendo's and Sega's controllers only featured a single stick) and could be used in three modes; Full Analog, FlightStick (for compatibility with games designed for the FlightStick) and digital (for compatibility with games which only accepted the digital input of the original controller).

Obviously with this version, the original FlightStick Paragraph would be removed.

 Alphathon TM ( talk ) 01:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Variation of a joystick
An analog stick is a type of joystick, plain and simple. I have an analog joystick from 1982 in it's original box, and its simply called a "joystick". Analog and digital are types of joysticks, not variations. Variation implies that there is a standard that an analog stick varies from. Asher196 (talk) 23:49, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't say that it wasn't, only that variation is a better word. In this instance, variation is more akin to "evolution" or "version of" than "different from". Analog sticks are based on the concept of a joystick but are operated in a different way (operated by the thumb rather than whole hand) and generally don't have buttons, triggers etc on them like traditional joysticks. Therefore, they are a variation of the joystick (significant feature difference, but same basic concept) in the same way as a Reliant Robin is a variation on the car/automobile, since it has 3 wheels - it deviates from the basic design but shares the same basic concept.

 * Please note that type is also completely valid, but I think variation is a better word for the situation.

 * Also, if you disagree with the word, simply change it back - do not revet the whole edit. If you want to revert the whole thing, say why for the whole thing.

 *  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 00:04, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Also, it should be noted, as has been noted before, that this page deals with analog thumbsticks, not all joysticks that are analog.  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 00:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I have been dissatisfied with this article for a while, mostly because of the fact that the analog thumb stick is just a type of joystick, and there is already an article for that. Also, it is mostly used on game controllers, and there is an article for that also.  It's almost as if fanboys want the analog stick to be something special, but it's really not. It's old technology used in a different way. Asher196 (talk) 00:19, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That much is obvious (the whole article merging thing). The problem is, that just because one thing is the evolution of another, doesn't mean it is irrelevant. The type of joystick that you hold in your hand is usually used these days for flight sims (analog flight-sticks) and fighting games (arcade sticks). The thumbstick is a different beast and has shaped the evolution of video games from the N64/PS1/Saturn generation onwards (prevalence of console FPSs for example). There is no doubt that all could be put in one huge article chronicling the history of joysticks (or could even be thrown in with the D-pad, gamepad etc to create a sort of overarching game input page) but there is a massive problem with that - it would be HUGE.

 * Wikipedias policy is to try and split of any articles which can exist in their own right and are significant enough. Many articles require huge pages; just look at the main articles for the consoles - they are rather large, but where possible pages have been split off into other articles for things like accessories, hardware revisions/specifications, release dates by country, games/software etc. Those things could all be included in the same article - it would make sense - but to do so would create a page so large that it would be impossible to navigate easily. If you look at the content for the Joystick article and the content for this one, it seems pretty clear that if they were merged, they would have to form two sections within the article and would likely have to be split again. In this case, view the Joystick article as the console, while the Analog Stick article is one of the sub-divisions. The best way I see to do it is to have a section within the Joystick article about analog thumbsticks which provides a blurb of sorts (similar to the arcade stick section) which as a main article link to this page for a more detailed history etc.

 * Honestly, from my point of view, the main problem is the joystick article which seems to focus almost exclusively on flightsticks initially, mentions arcade sticks in passing and thumbsticks as a single sentence and focuses a lot on older Atari-style sticks. It also seems to jump rather quickly from topic to topic and doesn't seem to have a clear goal (doesn't know if it's talking about joysticks in actual aircraft, digital Atari style sticks, computer flight sticks etc. or all sticks in general) If you focus your attention anywhere, it should probably be on revamping that article, not here. I'd do it myself if I had the time and the knowledge (I don't know a great deal about the history etc of, say, arcade sticks).

 * The way I see it, it should be something like this:

 Joystick article
 * >Aircraft section (history)
 * >Flightstick section
 * >Arcade stick section
 * >Analog (thumb)stick section (link here)

 * Not necessarily exactly that, but something like that, with different sections for different variations (or types if you really care that much). Anything else that is found to also have sufficient info/history on it should be slit of similarly to this article - by the looks of it flight sticks could as well, and "arcade style controller" already has it's own article as well. As I said, it is quite a convoluted article so making it work will/would be quite a task, but certainly the fact that the history of the rise of thumbsticks on consoles doesn't have to be included there helps.

 *  Alphathon TM ( talk ) 01:11, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Inner workings section
I would like to add a section about the inner parts of an analog stick boxes, with focus on those of the GameCube Controller, since that is the only type of controller I own. Now I have already made pictures that illustrate how they work, but I’m afraid uploading and explaining them here will get deleted anyway because it’s original content. So, should I write a detailed blog entry that can then be used as a source? If so, is it sufficient to write this on a forum’s user blog or does it have to be a dedicated blog? Kadano (talk) 10:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Your blog entry would not be a reliable source. Please read WP:RS for more information on reliable sources.--Asher196 (talk) 15:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Analog stick. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120407221417/http://e3.nintendo.com:80/hw/ to http://e3.nintendo.com/hw/#/about

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 01:32, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Technical questions....
This article implies a couple things that I am skeptical of, but I don't have a lot of technical knowledge and I'm having trouble finding sources that clarify things.

1. It says that analog sticks "use continuous electrical activity running through potentiometers". Is that really how all the controllers listed in the article work? The PlayStation, the Wii, the Dreamcast, etc, they all use potentiometers? When I look up potentiometers in relation to videogames I mainly see discussion of more old fashioned control methods like Pong paddles and big joysticks.

2. It singles the N64 controller out with several sentences about how the N64's control stick is technically "digital", not "analog", creating an implication that the N64 controller is special in this regard. Is it? Or are other game controllers technically digital too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WanderingWanda (talk • contribs) 23:51, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Proposed move to "analog joystick"
I am not sure how this ended up with the shorter form "stick", but the term is "joystick" as one can see here on the talk page and in any number of references included in the body. It appears the shorter form, "stick", became common with Sony consoles. I suggest we move it to the proper term. Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:58, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Analog stick


text:
José Melis

José Melis Guiu (February 27, 1920 – April 7, 2005) was a Cuban-American bandleader and television personality.

Biography
Melis was born in Havana, Cuba. He studied at the Havana Conservatory of Music and a Cuban government scholarship enabled him to continue his education in Paris. When he was 16, he arrived in the United States, graduated from the Juilliard School of Music and worked as a lounge pianist. During World War II, while he was serving as the musical director for the USO's New York City branch of the USO, he met Jack Paar, and the two remained friends for years.

In 1954–55, Melis was the pianist when The Morning Show on CBS was hosted by Paar. Then Paar moved from mornings to late night, and from 1957 to 1962, Melis served as the musical director of The Tonight Show during Jack Paar's tenure as host. He also wrote the music for Paar's theme song, "IM4U" (lyrics by Sev F. Marino), and he performed with Paar on other shows, including Parr’s Startime (1960). One of his routines on Paar's shows was the "telephone game," in which Melis would improvise a musical number based on the last four digits of an audience member's telephone number.

Melis also appeared on other TV shows, including Ed Sullivan's Toast of the Town, and he portrayed himself in the musical comedy film Senior Prom (1958). He occasionally accompanied Frank Sinatra, and his song "Pasion Orientale" was heard in the Judy Garland version of A Star Is Born (1954). In addition to touring with Mel Torme, he also appeared as a soloist with the Boston Pops and other symphony orchestras.

Melis was 85 when he died of a respiratory infection in Sun City, Arizona, on April 7, 2005.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: José Melis


text:
Talk:United Church of Christ

This article was supposed to be about the church of Christ not the United Church of Christ. All the information is incorrect for the church of Christ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.121.17 (talk) 15:42, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:United Church of Christ


text:
Talk:Donegal

Untitled
This might be a really stupid question, but what does Cavan, Pennsylvania have to do with Donegal? --Phil | Talk 17:08, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

"Donegal, Ireland" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Donegal, Ireland and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 29 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. —  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 21:57, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Donegal


text:
The Buccaneers

The Buccaneers is the last novel written by Edith Wharton. The story is set in the 1870s, around the time Wharton was a young girl. It was unfinished at the time of her death in 1937 and published in that form in 1938. Wharton's manuscript ends with Lizzy inviting Nan to a house party, to which Guy Thwaite has also been invited. The book was published in 1938 by Penguin Books in New York. After some time, Marion Mainwaring finished the novel, following Wharton's detailed outline, in 1993.

Plot
The story revolves around five wealthy and ambitious American girls, their guardians, and the titled, landed, but impoverished Englishmen who marry them as the girls participate in the London Season. As the novel progresses, the plot follows Nan and her marriage to the Duke of Tintagel.

The novel begins with three socially ambitious families looking for the status needed for their daughters to live successful lives, complete with European titles. The young women's fathers' money is very attractive to European aristocrats to maintain their version of wealth: collections of art, property, and other accoutrements of social status. While some girls live in unhappy marriages, they often take lovers to make their marriages work—or they file for divorce. While these young women were not in the best of situations, with high expectations from the dukes, some fall in love. Nan eventually falls in love with Guy Thwarte.

Reception of incomplete novel
Edith Wharton's final novel received positive and negative reactions from critics. It was often referred to by The New York Times as the "unfinished novel". The main questions asked by critics were: "Is this really her legacy?" and "Was there enough left of the book to publish in the first place?" Some of Wharton's close friends, such as her literary executor Galliard Lapsey, stated that the story was brought to its intended conclusion.

The unfinished story also received some positive remarks. According to literary critic May Lamberton Becker, The Buccaneers was one of her greatest works and one of the best works of the period. Lamberton Becker also stated, "To the last, Mrs. Wharton kept faith with her public, even in the novel for whose completion she could not stay. The Buccaneers is complete as far as the story goes, and may be read without the sense of final frustration that attends to so many unfinished novels. By far, the greater part, all indeed but the climax, the conclusion, and the scenes by which these were to be directly approached, are not only in print, but in what amounts to final form. What was to happen in these unwritten chapters her own synopsis—unusually rich in detail and in emotional undercurrent—leaves no manner of doubt".

Time magazine also wrote an editorial of the book in 1938. It begins with "Death last year ended Edith Wharton's work on a novel that might have been her masterpiece. She has written 29 chapters of a book apparently planned to run about 35 chapters. The story had reached its climax; the characters were at a moment in their careers when they were compelled to make irrevocable decisions. While Mrs. Wharton left notes suggesting how she intended to end the novel, she gave no hint of how she intended to solve its moral and esthetic problems".

Additionally, some critics were defensive of Wharton's last work. Christopher Money referred to those who responded negatively to Wharton's last work as a "low-class lot", and respected her humor towards the upper elite. Money even complimented Wharton's literary executor on his "eloquent, but surely unnecessary apology for the publication of this incomplete novel".

Reception for Marion Mainwaring's 1993 complete version
The criticism for Mainwaring's 1993 finished novel was harsh. In The New Yorker, John Updike stated, "we have a text that in no typographical way discriminates between her words and Wharton's, and that asks us to accept this bastardization as a single smooth reading unit." In The New Republic, Andrew Delbanco likened Mainwaring's efforts to an act of "literary necrophilia". In a Boston Globe review, Katherine A. Powers wrote that certain sections of The Buccaneers showcased "Wharton at her finest: subtle figures and tropes, eagle-eyed irony and a pathologist's acuity in matters of class and morality. But there are also sketchiness, lacunae, and a central implausibility, this perhaps the reason she never could complete the work... [Mainwaring's additions] were frankly no help. Under her pen, the narrative loses its ironic torque, the Prince of Wales strolls in, and the story, lobotomized and docile, becomes a blueblood infatuated gush."

Mainwaring's response to these critics was, "The argument that she was a great writer and how dare I? Well, I don't think she was always a great writer, at least not as great as some. I wouldn't have attempted this with a George Eliot or a Jane Austen novel. ...Edith Wharton was not at her stylistic best here; that made it easier for me".

1995 miniseries
Independently of Mainwaring's completion, screenwriter Maggie Wadey was commissioned to adapt and finish the novel for a television version co-produced by the BBC and American PBS broadcaster WGBH; it was screened on BBC 1 in the UK and in the Masterpiece Theatre series in the United States during 1995. This serial adaptation was directed by Philip Saville and executive-produced by Phillippa Giles.

Wadey's version of The Buccaneers, with the inclusion of homosexuality as well as its romantically dramatic showiness and seemingly "happy ending", received widespread criticism from both the BBC viewing public and Wharton fans and scholars alike. The general protest was that Wadey's development was far too unrealistic and stereotypically "Hollywood" in its closing development and end, as Guy Thwaite and the Duchess, Annabel "Nan", literally go riding off into the sunset to live happily ever after. This is starkly different from the ending of every one of Wharton's previous novels, which all have markedly realistic and distinctly solemn endings for all of their characters and plot lines. Many viewers felt that in using this ending, the BBC was "selling out" to Hollywood.

While Wadey's BBC ending was at the heart of the controversy, both Mainwaring's and Wadey's endings were heavily criticized for their "sensationalism" and perceived lack of "trueness" to Wharton's style of work, and both writers independently made the claims that they sought to romanticize and "Americanize" the story, despite it having been penned by Wharton to explore the intersections and clashes of class, commerce, and marriage in Old and New World cultures and high society. A companion book to the BBC series was published by Viking in 1995 (ISBN 0-670-86645-8). For this book, Angela Mackworth-Young revised and completed the novel based on Maggie Wadey's screenplay.

Cast and characters
 * Annabel "Nan" St. George – Carla Gugino
 * Virginia "Jinny" St. George – Alison Elliott
 * Conchita "Connie" Closson – Mira Sorvino
 * Elizabeth "Lizzy" Elmsworth – Rya Kihlstedt
 * Mabel "Mab" Elmsworth
 * Laura Testvalley, governess – Cherie Lunghi
 * Miss Jacqueline March – Connie Booth
 * Ushant, the Duke of Trevenick (Julius, Duke of Trevenick) – James Frain
 * Guy Thwaite (Guy Thwaite) – Greg Wise
 * Lord Richard Marable – Ronan Vibert
 * Lord Seadown – Mark Tandy
 * Hector Robinson – Richard Huw
 * Mrs. St. George – Gwen Humble
 * Colonel Tracy St. George – Peter Michael Goetz
 * Mrs. Closson – Elizabeth Ashley
 * Mr. Closson – James Rebhorn
 * Teddy de Dios-Santos
 * Mrs. Elmsworth – Conchata Ferrell
 * Lord Brightlingsea – Dinsdale Landen
 * Selina, Lady Brightlingsea – Rosemary Leach
 * Blanche, The Dowager Duchess of Tintagel (The Dowager Duchess of Trevenick) – Sheila Hancock
 * Sir Helmsley Thwaite (Sir Helmsley Thwaite) – Michael Kitchen
 * Lady Idina Churt (Idina Hatton) – Jenny Agutter
 * Miles Dawnley – Gresby Nash

2023 TV series
In June 2022, Apple TV+ announced plans to adopt the novel into a television series starring Kristine Froseth, Alisha Boe, Josie Totah, Aubri Ibrag, Mia Threapleton, and Christina Hendricks. The series premiered on 8 November 2023 on Apple TV+. The season finale was released on 13 December 2023.

title: The Buccaneers


text:
Trisha Krishnan

Trisha Krishnan (born 4 May 1983) known mononymously as Trisha is an Indian actress who works predominantly in Tamil and Telugu films. She gained prominence after winning the 1999 Miss Chennai pageant, which marked her entry into Cinema. Often referred to as the "Queen of South India", Trisha has received numerous accolades, including five Filmfare Award South, one Tamil Nadu State Film Award, one Nandi Award and eight SIIMA Awards.

After debuting with a minor supporting role in the Tamil romantic drama Jodi (1999), Trisha had her first lead role in the film Mounam Pesiyadhe (2002). She rose to fame starring in commercially successful films Saamy (2003), Ghilli (2004) and Aaru (2005) in Tamil cinema, and Varsham (2004), Nuvvostanante Nenoddantana (2005), Athadu (2005) and Aadavari Matalaku Ardhalu Verule (2007) in Telugu cinema, winning three Filmfare Awards for Best Actress – Telugu.

Trisha made her Hindi cinema debut by starring in the film Khatta Meetha (2010). Her performances in the comedy drama Abhiyum Naanum (2008), the romantic drama Vinnaithaandi Varuvaayaa (2010), the political thriller Kodi (2016), the romantic drama '96 (2018), and the historical dramas Ponniyin Selvan: I (2022) and Ponniyin Selvan: II (2023) received critical acclaim. Her performances in Kodi and '96 earned her the Filmfare Critics Best Actress – Tamil and the Best Actress – Tamil respectively, at the Filmfare Awards South. Her highest-grossing release to date is the action film Leo (2023).

Early life
Trisha Krishnan was born on 4 May 1983 to Krishnan Iyer and Uma Iyer in Madras, Tamil Nadu into a Tamil Palakkad Iyer family. She completed schooling at the Sacred Heart Matriculation School in Church Park, Chennai, and later pursued a Bachelor of Business Administration (BBA) course at the Ethiraj College for Women, Chennai. She ventured into modelling and appeared in several print and television commercials. In 1999, she won the "Miss Salem" beauty pageant, and later the same year, the Miss Chennai contest. She had also won the Miss India 2001 pageant's "Beautiful Smile" award.

Trisha had aspired to become a criminal psychologist initially, and resisted the thought of pursuing acting, as she wanted to complete her studies first. In 2000, she appeared in Falguni Pathak's music video Meri Chunar Udd Udd Jaye as Ayesha Takia's friend. She was later approached for an acting role in the Tamil film Lesa Lesa (2003) by Indian film director Priyadarshan, which marked the beginning of her professional career as an actress. She followed a tight shooting schedule while in college, making it difficult for her to continue her education. She compensated for this by attending summer classes.

1999–2003: Early career and success
Soon after her pageant success, Trisha began her acting career in a minor supporting role as Simran's friend in the romantic drama Jodi (1999). The first film she accepted was the Priyadarshan-directed Lesa Lesa, with the promotional posters for the film, also creating an offer to star in the A. R. Rahman musical hit, Enakku 20 Unakku 18 (2003). However, both the projects' releases were severely delayed, and her first release was Ameer's Mounam Pesiyadhe (2002) opposite Suriya. The film became a moderate success at the box office and managed to gain credentials for Trisha, with critics claiming that she was "undoubtedly a refreshing new find, with sparkling eyes and appealing demeanour", also going onto praise the dubbing artiste, Savitha Reddy, who has since regularly dubbed for Trisha. Manasellam (2003), her second project, saw her play a cancer patient, but the film went unnoticed upon its March release.

Her subsequent release was the Hari-directed action film, Saamy (2003) with Vikram. She played a soft-spoken college-going Brahmin girl and received positive reviews for her performance, with Sify's reviewer citing that she was "appealingly sensual" and looked "glamorous", and another critic writing that she looked "very pretty" and suited the role. The masala flick became the biggest blockbuster of the year, grossing ₹16 crores, and landed Trisha new offers, including several high-budget productions. Lesa Lesa, which was supposed to be her debut, released later the same month in May 2003. The romantic musical, based on the 1998 Malayalam film Summer in Bethlehem, fetched generally positive reviews. Following Lesa Lesa, she appeared in Alai (2003) which proved unsuccessful at the box office. Her fourth and final release of the year was Enakku 20 Unakku 18 (2003), which was commercially unsuccessful, but nevertheless helped proper her career due to its critically acclaimed music and visuals.

2004–2008: Stardom in Telugu and Tamil cinema
In 2004, she debuted in Telugu cinema with M. S. Raju-produced romantic action film Varsham, which turned her into an overnight sensation. Critics lauded her performance as Sailaja, a middle-class girl who becomes a film star on her father's insistence; Jeevi from Idlebrain stated that she was "beautiful" and a "big plus to the film", labelling her performance as "natural", while Sify noted that she had "transformed herself into a fine actress with immense screen presence". A critic from fullhyderabad.com praised her, citing that she had shown why Tamil Nadu was "busy building her a temple", further adding that she looked "so fresh and fine, you feel like gifting her to the roses". The film was a major commercial success, running in theatres for over 175 days and becoming one of the highest-grossing films of the year, and was declared a "sensational hit". For her role in Varsham, Trisha won her first Filmfare Awards for Best Actress – Telugu award, as well as the Santosham Award for Best Actress. She was also offered the same role in its Tamil remake Mazhai, which she declined.

Later in 2004, she acted as the female lead opposite Vijay in the action comedy film Ghilli. She played the character of Dhanalakshmi, a helpless girl who is protected from a thug by a Kabaddi player. However, most critics agreed that her performance in this film was overshadowed by Vijay and Prakash Raj. The film eventually emerged as the highest-grossing Tamil film of the year, celebrating a 175-day run, and was Trisha's biggest commercial success at the time. She next appeared in a small role in Mani Ratnam's political drama Aayutha Ezhuthu (2004), starring as part of an ensemble cast that included Siddharth, Madhavan and Surya. The film, despite favourable reviews, performed poorly at the box office, and she was once again outshone by the three male lead actors.

In the following two years, Trisha had 12 releases overall, where she featured as the female lead in all but one. She was part of two male-oriented action-masala flicks Thirupaachi (2005) and Aaru (2005), directed by Perarasu and Hari respectively, which both offered only limited roles for her. Of these, Thirupaachi became a major commercial success. In her second Telugu project, the romantic drama Nuvvostanante Nenoddantana (2005), she starred alongside Siddharth. The film, being Prabhu Deva's directorial debut, opened to rave reviews, with Trisha receiving praise for her portrayal as the village girl Siri. This performance earned her several Best Actress awards, including her second consecutive Filmfare Awards for Best Actress – Telugu and her first Nandi Award for Best Actress. Idlebrain noted that she was "just great. Her tender looks, innocent face and Telugu traditional costumes make her a treat to watch", further labelling her expressions and "naughty antics" as excellent, while Sify wrote of Trisha that she was "amazing as Siri [...] It is her career-best performance and she has excelled throughout." The film eventually won eight Filmfare Awards South, the most ever by any Telugu film, while also emerging as a major commercial success at the box office.

Continuing her string of releases in 2005, she then starred alongside Mahesh Babu in the action thriller Athadu, which proved to be a critical and commercial success, and her performance as Poori earned her third nomination for the Filmfare Award for Best Actress – Telugu. Trisha later went on to reprise the role in its Tamil remake, Nandhu, as well. Her subsequent releases, N Lingusamy's Ji (2005) and Aathi (2006), which saw her acting opposite Ajith Kumar and Vijay respectively, were the former was both critical and economical failure and the latter Vijay starrer was a average grosser.

Her next role in Pournami (2006), was directed by Prabhu Deva, saw her third-consecutive starring role in an M. S. Raju production. Trisha was featured in the titular role alongside an ensemble cast. She had previously earned Raju's praise after her work in the successful Varsham and Nuvvostanante Nenoddantana, with him stating that she was "one of the most talented and beautiful actresses I have ever worked with", going on to draw comparisons to the works of Savitri, Nargis and Sophia Loren.

Her sole Tamil release of 2006, Unakkum Enakkum, was a remake of Nuvvostanante Nenoddantana. This film, where she acted opposite Jayam Ravi, did well at the box office. She also starred in the Telugu film Stalin (2006) with Chiranjeevi, following which her Telugu film Sainikudu (2006) with Mahesh Babu was released.

Her next release was Aadavari Matalaku Ardhalu Verule (2007), where she was cast opposite Venkatesh. The film, Selvaraghavan's first Telugu venture, received positive reviews from critics. Trisha received her third Filmfare Award for Best Actress – Telugu for her performance in this film. She next starred in Kireedam (2007) alongside Ajith Kumar.

Her 2008 Tamil films, Bheema failed at the box office, whereas Kuruvi was a sleeper hit after completion of 150 day theatrical run at the box office. In the Telugu film Krishna with Ravi Teja became a blockbuster. Her following 2008 release Bujjigadu, directed by Puri Jagannadh and starring Prabhas, had a decent run. Trisha received praise for her performance in her next release, Radhamohan's Abhiyum Naanum (2008), which was followed by the Telugu King (2008), which emerged as a blockbuster at the box office. She received nominations for the Filmfare Award for Best Actress – Telugu and Filmfare Award for Best Actress – Tamil for her performances in Krishna and Abhiyum Naanum respectively.

2009–2017: Further success
Her 2009 films Sarvam with Arya and Sankham opposite Gopichand did not do well and became just average grossers. Trisha had a major role, starring as a Syrian Christian Malayali girl Jessie, in Gautham Vasudev Menon's 2010 Tamil romantic drama Vinnaithaandi Varuvaayaa, which was a major commercial success at the box office. The film centres around the complicated relationship between a Syrian Christian Malayali girl and a Tamil Hindu assistant director, who falls in love with her, only to be met by her indifference and reluctance as they belong to different religions and her strict conservative family will never consent to their marriage. Her performance was acclaimed by critics, earning her the Vijay Award for Favourite Heroine, in addition to her second nomination for the Filmfare Award for Best Actress – Tamil. Pavithra Srinivasan of Rediff commented, "Trisha is a revelation. Shorn of her filmi make-up, she dazzles in Nalini Sriram's simple costumes." Sify remarked, "Trisha looks good and delivers her career-best performance in a knock-out role."

Namo Venkatesa was her sole Telugu release in 2010. In the same year, she starred in Manmadhan Ambu with Kamal Haasan and R. Madhavan and made her debut in Hindi cinema with the Priyadarshan film Khatta Meetha. Upon release, the film received mixed reviews from critics and Box Office India declared it an average performer at the box office. Trisha was part of two commercially successful ventures in 2011, Theenmaar in Telugu and Venkat Prabhu's Mankatha in Tamil. The latter was the highest-grossing Tamil film of the year.

In 2012, she had two Telugu releases – Bodyguard, a remake of the same-titled Malayalam film, where she was paired with Daggubati Venkatesh for the third time, and Dammu opposite N. T. Rama Rao Jr. This was followed by two Tamil releases in 2013 – Samar starring Vishal, and the comedy-drama Endrendrum Punnagai starring Jiiva. Her performance in the latter film earned Trisha her third nomination for the Filmfare Award for Best Actress – Tamil. She signed on two "women-centric" bilingual projects featuring female lead casts, titled Rambha Urvasi Menaka and Kannaale Kannan. Although both films were commenced, they were stalled in 2013. She debuted in Kannada cinema with Power (2014).

Trisha's releases in 2015 included Yennai Arindhaal opposite Ajith Kumar, Thoongavanam with Kamal Haasan, and Bhooloham with Jayam Ravi in Tamil. She also acted in the horror film Aranmanai 2 (2017).

2018–present: Critical acclaim and continued career
In 2016, she starred in the political drama Kodi alongside Dhanush, which proved to be a critical and commercial success, earning her the Filmfare Critics Award for Best Actress – Tamil, in addition to her fourth nomination for the Filmfare Award for Best Actress – Tamil.

In 2018, she acted in the Malayalam film Hey Jude with Nivin Pauly making her Malayalam debut. Following this, she played a leading role in the Tamil romantic drama '96 opposite Vijay Sethupathi and received widespread critical acclaim. Janani K. of India Today hailed her performance as her career-best. She won her first Filmfare Award for Best Actress – Tamil, and other Best Actress awards at the SIIMA Awards, the Edison Awards, the Norway Tamil Film Festival Awards, and the Ananda Vikatan Cinema Awards.

She then starred in a brief role in Petta (2019), alongside superstar Rajinikanth. This was followed by her 60th film appearance with a starring role in Paramapadham Vilayattu (2021).

She was next seen in Mani Ratnam's 2022 film Ponniyin Selvan: I, in the role of the Chola princess, Kundavai, where her performance received critical acclaim. Her next appearance was in Tamil movie Raangi (2022). Her first release of 2023 was the sequel Ponniyin Selvan: II, where she reprised her role as Kundavai.

Her next release, Leo, is due on 19 October 2023. She has three other projects pending an official release date – these are Ram The Road, Sathuranga Vettai 2, a sequel to Sathuranga Vettai (2014) and Kamal Haasan-Mani Ratnam's film titled Thug Life.

Other work and endorsements
An ardent animal lover, Trisha has been the Goodwill Ambassador of PETA. In 2010, Trisha collaborated with People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) in issuing a public appeal to domesticate stray dogs rather than craving for pedigreed foreign breeds. She was also the Goodwill Ambassador for the "Angel for Animals" campaign organised by PETA in 2010, encouraging people to adopt homeless dogs. PETA praised Trisha for her work, and sent her an appreciation letter highlighting her animal rescue work and efforts to encourage people to adopt Indian community dogs. In 2017, Trisha was conferred the UNICEF celebrity advocate status. Subsequently, she will voice the rights of children including adolescents and young people.

Trisha replaced Rani Mukerji as the brand ambassador of Fanta India. She is the brand ambassador of Scooty Pep+, for which she has replaced Preity Zinta. She is also the brand ambassador for Vivel Di Wills, a product by ITC Limited. In 2011, she replaced Asin in the Fairever fairness cream commercial. Trisha is also a prominent celebrity endorser for other brands and products including Joy Alukkas, Volini, and Urbabrise.

Personal life
Trisha resides in Chennai with her mother and grandmother. Trisha's father died in October 2012. She can speak English, Hindi, Tamil, and French. She follows a vegetarian diet.

Her mother, Uma Krishnan, accompanies Trisha on film shoots, events, and functions, and they have appeared together in a commercial advertisement. Uma had been offered various roles by several Tamil film makers and actors including Kamal Haasan, but turned them down as she wanted to concentrate on Trisha's career. About her relationship with her mother, Trisha remarked: "She has been the pillar of my strength and has stood by me like a rock through thick and thin. [...] Everyone in the industry and my friends know how close I'm to my mom."

On 23 January 2015, Trisha became engaged to Varun Manian, a Chennai-based businessman. In May 2015, she confirmed that the couple had ended their engagement.

Media image

Trisha is considered among the most popular actors of Tamil and Telugu cinema. She is one of the highest paid actresses in South Indian cinema, according to various media reports. Trisha received the Kalaimamani award, for her "Contribution in Tamil Cinema", in 2006.

The Indian Express noted Trisha to be "a top actor" in the South Indian film industry. Rediff.com termed her the "biggest sensation" in South India. Filmfare noted, "Trisha has remained popular with audiences by regularly playing endearing characters and appearing in blockbuster films." They further praised her "longevity" in the business. Gautam Sunder noted, "She has sustained two decades in films as a leading actor with proven mettle and box-office success." He also noted her "ubiquitous popularity" that still persists. Aditya Shrikrishna of Verve termed Trisha the "legacy maker" and noted, "Trisha has made her a popular choice for author-backed roles." In Rediff.com's "Top 5 Tamil Actresses" list, she was placed 3rd in 2006, 4th in 2008, 2nd in 2010 and 3rd in 2016. In its "Top 5 Telugu Actresses" list, she was placed 1st in 2007 and 2nd in 2008. Trisha ranked 5th in "Hottest Tamil Actresses" list.

title: Trisha Krishnan


text:
User talk:Luminade

Welcome to the Wikipedia
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For more information click  here . You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

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Renamed
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title: User talk:Luminade


text:
Talk:Weeki Wachee, Florida

Something does not compute
Perhaps these performers commute from out of town? Or they're compensated by some non-reportable means of support? Something fishy maybe going on... knoodelhed 17:10, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) On the statement about women's salary above, it does not compute because of the fact many women who lived in the area worked for a living~Dominic Schatzan.
 * Males have a median income of $31,250 versus $0 for females.
 * ...underwater performances by mermaids, women...

Population Error
I live here and there has to be over 100 people living here, not 12. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.35.141.40 (talk • contribs) 10:34, May 23, 2006 (UTC)

 * 'This is incorrect. I lived in Weeki Wachee, Florida from age 2 months til age 10 years. Weeki Wachee was over 2.5 square miles in my estimation and most certainly has a population over 12, more like 75 or more.'' Please correct. -Weeki Wachee native, Dominic Schatzan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.125.155.251 (talk • contribs) 03:24, October 22, 2007 (UTC)

Race?
Everyone here is white...oh, except there is one Native American. Which is it? You can't have 100% white and a Native American. 71.220.132.228 (talk) 16:42, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The sentence(s) to which you referred have been rewritten to remove this inconsistency. —ADavidB 14:05, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Weeki Wachee, Florida