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Talk:Hershey Bears

Request for Help
The Hershey Bears are a storied hockey team and all they have on wiki is a default stub. That's sad. If any one is versed in the Bears history, I welcome you to expand this. There's also almost 70+ seasons of records to plug in. Wink Wink ccwaters 30 June 2005 02:53 (UTC)

Year-by-Year Scratch
Finished and transfered to article. ccwaters 13:00, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Maroon?
nosenuggets- I'm pretty sure the uniforms are brown, not maroon. Unless you think chocolate is maroon colored. Chicago Wolves? Maroon. ccwaters 11:18, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Hrm. I would say maroon myself, but then again since I moved from Springfield five years ago I haven't seen an AHL game (heavy sigh) and for all I know Hershey might have changed the uniforms the same way they went to that new (gag) cartoony logo.  Ravenswing 19:11, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

 * Yeah, its debatable... http://www.hersheypa.com/events/hershey_bears/multimedia/photo_gallery/index.asp Maroon is a dark RED for automobiles. But if the concensus is maroon, I'll put it back. Looking around the minor leagues, the newer logo could have been a lot worse. Think about a really mean looking Hershey Kiss on skates. ccwaters 20:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I would rather not, thanks! (growls, shaking a goalie stick in your general direction) Ravenswing 21:26, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

Ownership
The Bears are owned by the privately held Hershey Entertainment & Resorts Company which operates all the Hershey related tourist type stuff. Its not a division of publicly traded The Hershey Company, whose sole business is making food. Ultimately, Milton Hershey's estate (The Hershey Trust) owns all of entertainment company and is the majority stockholder of the candy company. REF: http://www.hersheypa.com/town_of_hershey/mission_statement.html

Random edits
Ok... there's been a few random contributions to the article from obvious Hershey followers. Please add factually correct history info in the "History " section. That is what it is there for. Please. The fact that there's nothing there is a travesty. This storied hockey team deserves more than that and it deserves more than random POV/misleading drive-by contributioms. Maybe the booster club could help? ccwaters 23:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Whoever keeps deleting my paragraph referring to the team's market, please stop. Unless you are from south-central PA, you have no business on this page. I am from Lancaster, stay away from my team. I provided useful information that is supported by Wikipedia.

KnoxSGT 21:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

 * 1) No one "owns" or has rights to any article. 2) Keep it encyclopedic. Naming every town within 40 miles is pointless. Futhermore, including the Bears in categories for such towns is misleading. 3) I looked at the Lancaster paper. No Bears articles. 4) Colors are not proper names. Don't capitalize them. 5) Don't plagarize. ccwaters 01:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Changes
For one the names of colors in every other professional team on this site are capitalized. I did not plagerize, as I put the history in my own words. Your version does not even tell much of the history at all. If no one owns articles, then why do you take it upon yourself to revert back to your version when changes are made. I will report this if you continue. Everyone has the right to change info on this site. Also look at the GIANT Center's capacity, as it matches the population of the town of Hershey. There's no way the AHL would place a team in a location unless it had a population of at least 200,000. That is why I incorporated the other cities in the area, because it is our team. I gather that you are not from PA and therefore do not know anything regarding this. Stick to your own local teams and I will stick to mine. Also if you look at lancasteronline.com, the Lancaster Newspapers site, then you will find 152 articles about the Hershey Bears in Local News.

 * I don't see "the names of colors in every other professional team on this site are capitalized". I admit there are a handful with some poor style choices. Please don't propagate them further.

 * Compare your edit to the official site's history write up. Taking someone else's copy and changing a few words around is still plagiarism. I encourage you to contribute truely original content to the article.

 * I fully aware of the size of the town of Hershey. Every team draws from the surrounding metropolitan area, not just specifically the host city. Call it the "Harrisburg metro area" or as the Census officially calls it Harrisburg-Carlisle metro. Listing every nearby town is needless. 200K is the minimum? Recent additions include Binghamton (45k), Peoria (112k), Worcester (175k).

 * Check your 152 results at the lancaster paper: there's actually only 3 unique articles related to Hershey Bears dating back to 11/25/2005. Its doesn't seem like a great source for info on the bears. Why send interested readers on a goose chase?

 * Where I reside has nothing to do with this. This isn't some turf war. Check out WP:HOCKEY ccwaters 18:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Beyond that, CC is one of our local AHL experts (I'm another, for my sins), and he has done a great deal of work creating viable team pages for many minor league teams. I certainly endorse his presentation of Wikipedia's rules, and think you should consider simmering down a bit.  You don't "own" the Bears' article any more than I "own" the Falcons' or Indians' articles.  Ravenswing 19:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand the rules regarding plagarism, but a history of a team, nation, state, city, etc. is a series of events. A series of events cannot be written in too many ways without watering down the details. If I cannot use the official team site's history, where else could I retrieve info. I noticed another person's comments about the lack of the team's history and wanted to contribute what this person was looking for. The existing page only has about half, and when I tried to add the other, I am plagarizing.

12.208.197.248 19:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm not questioning your intentions. I think we can all say the Bears deserve something more like this article: Springfield Indians. That, however, is no excuse to plagiarize their website content. An entire book was written about them: I'm sure you can whip up some original copy if you tried. ccwaters 20:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

2006 Playoffs Article
ccwaters why is it that you keep deleting my article about the 2006 playoffs and calder cup championship?
 * I'd venture to suggest he gave his reason when he put in "Ok... the past three months have more copy than the previous 70 years... can we develop that a little more first??" It's a valid criticism; for a professional hockey team of the Bears' lineage to have such a scanty article is a disgrace.  I'd write one myself if I was comfy enough with my knowledge to do so (as, plainly, I was with the Springfield Indians and Springfield Falcons articles), but if we don't get something going I might do so anyway.  Ravenswing 05:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Team points record?
Hopefully I will be able to help this article and answer questions since I am a native of Hershey and a Bears fan..

Here is what I need help with, mostly the 1987-88 season has been talked about due to the fact that they held the team's total points record, 105. See here:http://www.hersheypa.com/events/hershey_bears/pdf/weekly_release/mar26.pdf Left hand side, under "More History on the Horizon." According to the year by year chart here and at Hockeydb.com, in 1987-88 Hershey earned 103 pts. Now if you give them 2 pts for the two OTLs, it equals 105, but I am unsure as to if this was done in the AHL at the time...

P.S. Heh, I don't know as I would not be born for another 4-5 months.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smurfer2 (talk • contribs) 19:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

 * The problem appears to be a simple typo. I have corrected it. Flibirigit 03:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Hershey Bear market, etc, etc.
In response to the comment on my userpage:

We are not documenting privileged information. If I'm missing something because I don't reside in York, please cite. But please refrain from telling me what I articles I have a right to contribute to based on my personal proximity.

I have no doubt that there are fans from Lancaster or Harrisburg or York in the Giant Center. I also have no doubt that the River Rats draw from Troy, Schenectady, or even Glen Falls. Or that the Senators has fans in Northeast PA. Or that Norfolk draws from Hampton Roads, Chesapeake, Virginia Beach or Portsmouth. Or that Lowell, Worcester, Springfield, Bridgeport, Hartford, Providence and Portland draw from their neighboring sprawl. Shall I cross reference all of these in their respective articles?

USA Hockey represents the US in IIHF sanctioned tournaments. The local high school hockey team represents said high school. IE... "This is the best squad of hockey players our population can produce: do us proud." . Professional sports teams in the US do not "represent" their markets. They are almost always a for profit entertainment endeavor that imports outsiders to play for a salary. In turn that salary is financed by ticket/merchandising/etc sales from individuals in the surrounding community. Their performance on the ice is by no means an extrapolation of the communities value. I would say the VAST majority of that 1,535,995 (Or is it 1,192,572 ?) would disagree your statement. ccwaters 13:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Joke?
Is Chocolate B`ars a joke? 24.83.3.54 19:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Not a joke, the team played at the Hershey Ice Palace under this name in the EAHL for the 1933-34 season. Centpacrr 21:16, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:HB2.PNG
Fair use rationale completed. Flibirigit 04:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 15:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Eeek?
It's a howling shame that a full sixty year stretch of the Bears' history, from 1940 to 2005 - a stretch in which the team won eight Calder Cups - was entirely blank, other than a full paragraph about the team signing Don Cherry, whom no one could legitimately claim was a notable player for the franchise. Perhaps some attention could be turned to filling in those Cup seasons, as well as the doings of the Nykoluks, Marshalls, Henrys, Kullmans, Kellers, Dobbins and Lamoureauxs of the world.  ῲ Ravenswing ῴ  08:04, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

The full and official name is "Hershey Bears Hockey Club"
The actual full and official name of the organization that owns and operates the AHL hockey team playing in Hershey, PA, is (and has always been) "The Hershey Bears Hockey Club" not the "Hershey Bears". This is the name that the club uses on its website (see the contact information at the bottom of the page), stationary, checks, invoices, publications, etc.. Encyclopedic style of WP (and every other encyclopedia) is to use full, proper names, not "popular" names, for organizations, people, buildings, ships, bridges, etc. when the name is introduced for the first time. This issue was also discussed here earlier and resolved as using the club's full and proper name. I have been writing about this hockey club professionally since the early 1970s (see for instance "1936-2002: HERSHEYPARK ARENA'S SIXTY-SIX YEARS  AS HOME TO HERSHEY BEARS HOCKEY.") and this the way its full name has always been used. Centpacrr (talk) 15:07, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

 * See further discussion of this issue here. Centpacrr (talk) 12:45, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I understand your opinion, especially since the MLS' Chicago Fire has its full name as its article title. Most sports teams just use their common names, though.JaMikePA (talk) 13:44, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

 * This is not an "opinion", it is the name that the hockey club uses (and has always used) to call itself as is explained in great detail above and in the linked thread. Centpacrr (talk) 14:21, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Then you are going to have a lot more articles to "correct", as all other US sports team articles just use the common name in the lead, not their technical name at all. And the current phrasing is utterly needlessly wordy. The article is about the team, which is known as the Hersey Bears. No need for "operates a team" silliness; no other team from the US has that awkward and unnecessary phrasing in the lead; it is in no way more encyclopedic. That you would revert without addressing the main thrust of the edit summary (the unneeded wordiness and variance from all other AHL teams) because of some perceived closeness to the team raises issues of article ownership that tell me you should back away from the article a bit and let others address clear weaknesses, such as this awkward and unneeded phrasing. oknazevad (talk) 10:36, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed; no one outside of the organization uses the full name. WP:COMMONNAME would seem to apply here. 331dot (talk) 10:40, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * In that discussion on your talk page, Hersheybearsfan points out what I was just about to: that many other team articles just use the name by which the team is commonly known. The Bears' website is NOT hersheybearshockeyclub.com, but hersheybears.com.  The Patriot-News doesn't have a section referencing "Hershey Bears Hockey Club," but "Hershey Bears."  Directed Google hits for "Hershey Bears Hockey Club" are a bit over 30,000. For "Hershey Bears," over a million. Beyond that, beyond WP:COMMONNAME, there's another principle at hand here: consensus. Both here and on your talk page, you are wont to raise your dealings with the club as if that's some kind of trump card that ought to stifle debate, but here on Wikipedia you're an editor like all the rest of us: I certainly don't get to infer on the Boston Bruins article that my way goes because I've written print articles about the club and done broadcast work.  In any event, I don't see either on the earlier discussion or here a crucial element: other editors agreeing with you.  How Frank Mathers answered the phone forty years ago -- which, I note with interest, wasn't "Hershey Bears Hockey Club" -- is quite irrelevant. Oknazevad's mention of WP:OWN is prudent.   Ravenswing   12:56, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * This has NOTHING to do with WP:OWN, but instead of knowledge of how this particular organization has operated for more than eight decades -- and STILL does. (See here, here, here, here and here for current examples.) All of its official printed and published business materials (stationary, website, business cards, telephone book listing, franchise certificate, etc) use "Hershey Bears Hockey Club" which is the encyclopedically correct name of the club and also the way it has appeared in this article for years. Just because this form may not be used by some (or even many) other sports organizations does not mean it can't be used by this one. Wikipedia, like other encyclopedias, is in the business of trying to be as correct and "accurate" a possible and does that by being based on reliable sources. In this matter I have provided many such reliable sources as to what the actual full name of the club is. An editor dropping in years later assuming the name is something other than what it has been since 1934 is not "consensus" to change the full and correct name to something it isn't. Also the proposition that contributions from editors who have well demonstrated expertise and experience in a particular field should be discounted and such contributors be prohibited from editing articles in areas in which they have great knowledge and background is just a preposterous view of how encyclopedias and other reference works are produced. Centpacrr (talk) 15:27, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * How do you reconcile all of that with WP:COMMONNAME- which states "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources"?331dot (talk) 16:22, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I reconcile it this way: Here are five CURRENT examples (and another historic one from 1936) of public usage by the club and news media of the full name "Hershey Bears Hockey Club" in news releases,  newspaper stories, club logos, club merchandise and club anniversary logos all of which I was able to find on line in about ten minutes showing that despite unsupported speculation to the contrary, "The Hershey Bears Hockey Club" is the name that the organization still uses to identify itself to the public. In fact the specific use of "Hockey Club" in Bears' publications goes back to even before the club played in the AHL when it was a member of the Eastern Amateur Hockey League as can be seen in this 36-37 play off program. I posted a request on oknazevad's talk page requesting a response to this however instead of doing so he/she deleted my posting with the edit summary "Let's keep this discussion on the article talk page. I'd also note that the latest revert on the Hershey Bears article hits WP:3RR. Be careful; these are good faith edits, and not worth bad mojo." In light of both my longer comment immediately above (to which oknazevad has not yet responded to in here despite the importation made to me in his/her edit summary) and the six additional examples I have just posted here, there is now ample new source material to disprove his/her position and support mine that "The Hershey Bears Hockey Club" is not only the encyclopedicly correct name for the club, but is also the name used by the club in communicating with the public, on its merchandise, and also by the news media in covering the club both now and over its entire history. On other words, "The Hershey Bears Hockey Club" IS "...the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources."

 * Also let me point out in response to oknazevad's edit summary that is it actually he/she who is now already in violation of 3RR by having unilaterally and summarily changed the long standing and reliably sourced correct name in a period of less than 12 hours. (I, by the way, have only reverted it back to the correct name "twice", not three times as oknazevad claims I have.) The correct way for him/her to cure that violation of WP policy would be to restore the original long agreed upon text both because there has never been any "clear consensus" to have changed it in the first place, and because I have now also provided ample new sourcing that his/her change is makes the lede inaccurate. If Oknazevad truly believes in WP:AGF (as I do), then he/she will respect the evidence provided both years ago as well as in the five additional contemporary (and one additional historic) sources provided here and restore "The Hershey Bears Hockey Club" to the lede of th article where is has been for many years. Centpacrr (talk) 17:20, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Wrong. I made a change. You reverted. I restarted this thread in response. Someone else, 331dot, made a change in response to my posting (and also responded here). I tweaked it. You reverted again. I restored the tweaked version, the only time I've reverted as part of this dispute. Even if one considers my tweak a revert, as the result was substantially the same, that's still only two. The first change was a change not a revert.
 * Notably, though, from looking at the edit history, this isn't the first time that people have come along and made this change to bring this article in line with other sports articles and to omit the pedantry. Each time it is you who have reverted. That's definite WP:OWN behavior to enforce a consensus of one opinion, yours. There are innumerable North American sports teams that have legal full names longer than their common names, and they are always routinely omitted. There's no reason why this team should be different. oknazevad (talk) 17:49, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

 * With respect, sir or madame, you are just arguing "process" here while completely ignoring "substance". Curiously you also claimed that "clear consensus" had been achieved to support your position just less than four hours after posting your comment here based, apparently, on the postings of only two other editors but without even the courtesy of affording me a chance to comment before you summarily reinstated your deletion of long standing, well sourced material. Again with respect, sir or madame, that's just not how the consensus process works, nor does it exhibit any particular degree of collegiality or WP:AGF in dealing with the community at large. I have now supplied the community six new reliable sources showing that "The Hershey Bears Hockey Club" IS "...the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." So please address the actual issue that was raised by your making the original change in the article's lede without providing any support or sourcing to justify it other than your personal speculation. Again this had nothing whatever to do with WP:OWN or any lack of WP:AGF on my part, but instead with using the accurate and correct name that the club, media, and the public have used for more than 80 years as I have now additionally supported by the six new sources I supplied above. While it is true that many sports teams do not use their "full legal names" in their public communications, on their merchandise, and in the media, this one DOES and always has. Please therefore respect that even if it is not "usual" instead of trying to impose your personal preference as to how this club and its fan base refer to it.

 * The reason it should be "different" for this club's WP entry is simple: because it IS "different. Centpacrr (talk) 18:06, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

 * Actually, it's not any different from the New York Giants. That team's full name is "New York Football Giants", which is likewise used at times in the press and by the team (as with the banners that hang along the walls behind the end zones at MetLife Stadium when the Giants are home). But the most common usage, the one that is the article title and the one that leads off the article is the shorter form. The longer name is mentioned later in the article. This is the exact same situation. So there is really no substantial difference requiring an awkwardly phrased lead sentence, which is why I made the change. Just like the many who have before. oknazevad (talk) 18:43, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The name "New York Football Giants" was adopted to avoid confusion when there was also a NL baseball team called the NY Giants playing in the same market using the same nickname, a completely different situation. I don't know were you live (or even if it is in the United States) because you have not revealed that, but I am absolutely sure it is nowhere near Hershey, and that you probably have no connection to the professional world of hockey in which I have worked for 45 years. If you are so sure this is not the name the club uses and is known by, why do you suppose they include the FULL name in their logos, on fan merchandise, in their press releases and publications, and that it is used by the media, etc? I'm also sorry if you apparently think that the fact that editors' personal expertise, background, and experience should be "held against" them when editing on WP instead of being taken advantage of by the community. If WP editors were limited to only editing articles on subjects we know nothing about imagine what a sorry excuse for a reference work this would make the project. Do you ONLY edit articles on subjects in which you have no background or interest? Really?

 * As for this case you are just dead wrong and you have still not provided any support for your position while I have provided plenty. And while you are at it, also please account for why you think that it is appropriate to "declare" the achievement of not only consensus to a position you espouse, but "clear consensus" in the lightning like manner you did here as outlined in my comment above. With respect, sir or madame, this is just not the way it works but instead reflects a lack of both editorial collegiality and WP:AFG. Centpacrr (talk) 19:11, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It is not at all "different" from other hockey clubs, many of whom have other "official" names. Beyond that, we are not wrong just because you state so repeatedly, and increasingly shrilly.  Beyond that, what is this "long ago consensus" you claim?  Are you seriously trying to tell us that a discussion between you and another editor, on your talk page, constitutes a valid consensus for how an article is to be handled in mainspace?  WP:COMMONNAME is clear, and this is proving to be yet another WP:OWN situation, for all the reasons previously cited.  As a professor once told a friend, is this really the hill you want to die on?   Ravenswing   19:26, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I dare say that many thousands of readers and editors have come to this page over the more than three years since this issue last came up for discussion without anybody seeking to change it. Under WP guidelines and policy, that constitutes de facto consensus as stated in WP:COM §1.1 which reads: "Consensus is a normal and usually implicit and invisible process across Wikipedia. Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus." With the exception of one question being briefly raised but not pursued in May, 2013, this form of the name had stood undisputed and unchanged since that last time over three years ago during which almost 200 revisions have been made to this page by 96 users -- including Ravenswing -- without disputing or changing this name format. As for the ancillary discussion I also linked to that appeared on my talk page, that was not started be me but by another editor and all I did was respond to his questions and satisfy his concerns. The discussion of the issue on this page is the one that I started in August, 2011, and appears in full above.

 * As a matter of WP practice and policy one editor challenging this wording and then unilaterally changing it after a "discussion" lasting less than four hours with only two other participants (and not bothering to wait for me to even have a chance to comment) done early on a Saturday morning in no way constitutes the establishment of a "clear consensus" of anything. That being said, you are STILL just arguing "process" here and not addressing "substance". Have you even bothered to look at the six new sources I have linked to in my above comments? And what background, independent knowledge, or reliable sources do you have to counter them? It would be much more helpful in reaching consensus here if you would please address the actual issue at hand which so far has still been completely ignored by both you and oknazevad. Thank you. Centpacrr (talk) 21:12, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No one has said that the full name is never used anywhere by anyone(so your pointing out that it is, is really immaterial); but it is not the most commonly used name(even their logo does not use it). The full name should be mentioned somewhere in the article(I tried doing so but was reverted, which is OK) but it shouldn't be substituted for the common name.  As pointed out to you, this is done with teams all over Wikipedia(New York Giants not Football Giants, New York Knicks instead of Knickerbockers, etc.) and there is no reason this should be a different case; your only argument in favor of this being a special case seems to boil down to "because I think this is a special case". I would also agree that a small discussion on your talk page some time ago does not a consensus make. 331dot (talk) 02:44, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Again you are missing the point by falsely assuming that "common" names of organized sports clubs are all always treated the same way. In the matter of the Hershey Bears Hockey Club that is just not the case. This is something I know from both my personal experience and associations with the hockey club going back to the late 1950s (and no, that's not "original research"), and which is also positively and independently demonstrated by each the six new reliable sources that I have cited in my earlier comments above. So far in this discussion no other editor has disputed -- or even addressed -- what these sources show. So again please stop talking about "process" and address the substance of what these sources demonstrate about how the common name of this club has been -- and still is -- styled for more than 80 years. (For your convenience the six sources can be found here,  here, here, here, here and here.) Centpacrr (talk) 03:16, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * And for good measure, here are just a few more examples:, , . , , , , , , , , . and many, many more.
 * Oh for pity's sake: I could come up with not merely a dozen, but a thousand links to the contrary, if I felt like wasting my time and everyone else's. You seem to have a fundamental disconnect here: this is not a matter of us not understanding your position, it's that we don't agree with your position, and barraging us with links or verbiage is not going to change that. We are not, I'm afraid, required to address your demands to your personal satisfaction before arriving at this consensus, nor are we bound by the lack of people being willing to outfilibuster you three years ago.   Ravenswing   06:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

 * Yes I understand that you disagree with my position, the problem is that you continue to refuse to provide any independent, external source, reliable or otherwise, as a basis to support why you think you are correct, just personal speculation. Centpacrr (talk) 07:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You are clearly not reading what I am (and others are) saying or just don't care. 331dot (talk) 09:53, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Let me see if I can phrase this as simply as possible, since it regrettably seems necessary to do so:
 * WP:COMMONNAME enjoins us to use the name by which a team is commonly known over the entirety of English-language sources, rather than its corporate name;
 * The evidence which I did provide for the team's commonly known name -- and which you have apparently ignored in your diatribes -- was that Google hits for "Hershey Bears" outnumbered those for "Hershey Bears Hockey Club" by over 30:1;
 * What the team's organization, any given media source, your personal website or any other link chooses to call the hockey team is completely irrelevant to, and does not enjoin, the operation of WP:COMMONNAME, WP:MOS or consensus practice;
 * The common and overwhelming practice in sports articles is for the corporate, official names of teams not to be mentioned;
 * Neither in 2011 on this page, nor on your own talk page in 2011, nor currently, has there been so much as a single editor supporting your POV; and
 * You do not get to declare, unilaterally, that the article is going to say what you want and only what you want.
 * This goes back to the "is this really the hill you want to die on?" quote: this is a curiously petty issue for you to be responding so angrily and tendentiously, and there aren't really any flattering rationales for it.   Ravenswing   11:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately nothing in the above comment responds or relates to the specific uses of the name "Hershey Bears Hockey Club" in the six cited sources I provided.
 * The vast majority of the time consensus is established on WP not in a talk page discussion, but implicitly and invisibly as stated in WP:CON §1.1 which reads: "Consensus is a normal and usually implicit and invisible process across Wikipedia. Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus." With the exception of one question being briefly raised but not pursued in May, 2013, this form of the name had stood undisputed and unchanged since that last time over three years ago during which almost 200 revisions have been made to this page by 96 users -- including Ravenswing -- without disputing or changing this name format.
 * As a matter of WP common practice and policy, one editor challenging text with a posting in an article's talk page made early on a Saturday morning, and then that same editor unilaterally declaring the achievement of "clear consensus" to support the change of long standing (over three years) text after a "discussion" lasting less than four hours with only two other participants — and especially not bothering to wait for the editor's views being challenged to even have a chance to comment — inno way conforms to the way that process is designed to work in the Wikipedia Project, nor does it constitute the establishment of a "clear consensus" of anything. Instead this is nothing more than that editor — in your own words — "declaring, unilaterally, that the article is going to say what he/she wants, and only what he/she wants." Centpacrr (talk) 02:27, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Frankly, you're just going to have to accept that others (come to that, everyone who's chimed in on this) disagree with you, and accept that you are on the wrong side of consensus. Continued filibustering on your part doesn't change that, and doesn't seem to have convinced anyone to change his or her mind.   Ravenswing   03:25, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You mean, I presume, all two of you who commented on the challenge (one of whom supported including both names) compared to the 96 (ironically including yourself) other editors who made revisions to the article over the last three years who did not challenge this text thereby establishing consensus the same way that it is done on WP the vast majority of the time: "through editing". (See WP:CON §1.1)

 * Again a claimed "discussion" started a little after 6AM EDT on a Saturday morning and then summarily "closed" after less than four hours by the same proponent who started it does not "establish" a "clear consensus" of anything anywhere on Wikipedia. (In my experience over the last eight years the standard for such discussions is generally about a week.) You can deny that this is the process established by WP:CON if you care to, I suppose, but that's just the way the project works.

 * While I do not now intend to restore "Hershey Bears Hockey Club" as the Bears' actual, encyclopediclly correct name in the lede sentence as it has now been made clear in the history section of the article how and why that entity was created and exists, your apparent position that a less than four hour "discussion" in talk with one proponent, one supporter, and one partial supporter somehow outweighs in establishing "clear consensus" the sum of 96 actual contributors to the article made over a period of three years is contrary to both the letter and spirit of WP:CON §1.1, flies in the face of WP:AGF, and is, quite frankly, preposterous. Centpacrr (talk) 04:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Dates of establishment of the Hershey Hockey Club (now Hershey Bears Hockey Club) and the I-AHL/AHL
The Hershey Hockey Club (now Hershey Bears Hockey Club), the hockey organization that owns and operates the Hershey Bears hockey team in the AHL, was founded in 1932 and since then has operated professional teams in Herhsye, PA under four different names in two different leagues since then. For the first two years (1936-38) the current American Hockey League operated not as a single league, but as two already established leagues (The International Hockey League and the Canadian-American [Can-Am] Hockey League) which played an interlocking schedule because both leagues had fallen to just four member clubs each. That circuit was styled as the International-American Hockey League which soon dropped to seven teams when Buffalo was forced to withdraw when the roof of its arena collapse in a blizzard. These two leagues did not formally merge until June, 1938 at which time the Hershey Hockey Club was granted a new franchise to operate in that new I-AHL in that league. (In 1938-39 the Hershey Hockey Club operated teams in both the EAHL -- the Hershey Cubs -- and the I-AHL -- the Hershey Bears.) The I-AHL dropped "International" from its name in 1940 and has operated as the AHL ever since.

Thus 1932 is the year in which hockey club organization in Hershey was established, but is was not until 1938 (not 1932) that the organization was granted the franchise in the I-AHL (now AHL) that it currently owns and operates. Centpacrr (talk) 16:01, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The article currently states that the Hershey Bears play in the AHL, and have since the league was formed (by merger) in 1938. It also states that the team itself was founded in 1932, making it the oldest pro hockey organization outside the Original Six NHL teams. That's the essential info. Everything g else is pedantry and unimportant. oknazevad (talk) 16:07, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed. (Well, oldest *continual* organization, anyway.)   Ravenswing   19:24, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
 * As I have explained in detail several times before, a hockey organization (the Hershey Bears Hockey Club, established in 1932 as the Hershey Hockey Club) is NOT the same thing as a "franchise" which is a license granted by a league (the I-AHL/AHL) to a hockey organization to operate a "team" (the AHL Hershey Bears, franchise granted June 28, 1938). The Hershey Hockey Club established, owned and operated four other "teams" in the T-SHL and EAHL between 1932 and 1939: the Hershey B'ars (T-SHL), Hershey Chocolate Bars (EAHL), Hershey Bears (EAHL), and Hershey Cubs (EAHL). The current Hershey Bears hockey "team" playing in the AHL was not franchised and established from scratch until 1938, not 1932. I am therefore left wondering what exactly about the difference between a hockey "organization" (a business entity) and a hockey "team" (a sports team owned and operated by a hockey organization) operated under a league granted franchise neither of you understand? Centpacrr (talk) 20:07, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Here's what you don't understand, and why you keep getting grief: The fact that's it's unimportant, pedantic detail. The fact that it is sufficiently covered just by changing one use of the word "franchise" to the word "club". The fact that it's exactly the same situation as the Montreal Canadiens, who predate the NHL but are still considered to be one continuous operation. That fact that simply, put, no one cares to overload the lead with trivial details besides you. It's unneeded. Let the history section cover the details (and even then make sure they're not WP:UNDUE, but keep the lead short, sweet, focused and readable. It's just better writing. oknazevad (talk) 20:37, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Fine, then if that is your issue I will shorten the lead even more by removing altogether the misleading statement that the AHL Hershey Bears team was "established in 1932" because it wasn't (it was established on June 28, 1938), and delete the reference to the "league's first season" that fails to include the reference to the merger in 1938 after operating as an interlocking schedule of the IAHL and CAHL from 1936 which the AHL uses as its "first season" for record purposes. In the future if you are going to "shorten" something then please be careful not to do so in a manner that introduces material that is false and/or misleading owing to lack of needed detail or explanation. Centpacrr (talk) 20:54, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Hershey Bears


text:
Talk:Hartford Wolf Pack

NHL Players
I think mentioning some players who went on to the NHL would be useful --AW (talk) 18:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved I had actually already moved it before noticing this discussion. I think its a clear case of WP:SNOW since the name change now officially done. DJSasso (talk) 18:59, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Hartford Wolf Pack → Connecticut Whale — This team recently changed its name. Cmjc80 (talk) 22:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The team is changing their name tonight (27 Nov 2010). The website, though still at www.hartfordwolfpack.com, is completely redone for the new Connecticut Whale name. The site seems to have little mention of the old Wolf Pack name now. --69.119.21.138 (talk) 22:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support - New name is officially in use Cmjc80 (talk) 22:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support - Agreed, but I believe the Wolf Pack name still needs a good, detailed section of its own within the article, after 13 years of use. *Edit: Maybe the leftover Hartford Wolf Pack page should redirect specifically to this section (Connecticut Whale#Hartford Wolf Pack). --David7581 (talk) 02:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support: We generally keep separate minor league articles, but only when there are identity AND franchise shifts. We've certainly kept the various iterations of the Fort Wayne Komets together, and the Springfield Kings are included in the Springfield Indians article.  However jarring this may be, it's the same franchise with the same players and the same affiliation.  Certainly the Wolf Pack's history should be in the article, but it's not as if this would push the article up over length.   Ravenswing  14:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Connecticut Whale (formerly called the Hartford Wolf Pack)
I think that the opening line of this article should acknowledge that this team was recently called the Hartford Wolf Pack. This recognition is required to avoid confusion because the team changed its name mid-season and "Hartford Wolf Pack" redirects to this article. Dolovis (talk) 14:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Its mentioned at least 3 other times in the article. Maybe it should stay for now due to the recent name change, but it shouldn't be in the lead long term. ccwaters (talk) 15:03, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed, leave it in for the season since it happened mid season. But remove it at the end of the season, as we don't typically do this for any other team and it is mentioned elsewhere in the article. -DJSasso (talk) 15:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree - I never suggested that it should stay there forever, but the mention should stay in place for the remainder of this season. Dolovis (talk) 17:54, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No objections.  Ravenswing  18:54, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd agree. Keep it for the season, and then remove from lead when it ends. Just keep a mention somewhere in the history section for reference. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Old Logo
Added Wolf Pack logo to history. Seems it was deleted, but there was no discussion. I think that the old name and logo is important to properly identify the team. Also, I was having trouble with the fair-use template on the image page, so it someone could help, I'd appreciate it.--Zfish118 (talk) 01:39, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

 * Specifically, I couldn't get the "logo" template to work, so I used a generic one for now--Zfish118 (talk) 02:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Hartford Wolf Pack


text:
Santo António (Funchal)

Santo António (Portuguese meaning "Saint Anthony") is a civil parish in the northwestern part of the municipality of Funchal on the island of Madeira. It is located about 3 km northwest of central Funchal. The most populous civil parish in the archipelago, it extends into the mountainous interior of the island. The population in 2011 was 27,383, in an area of 22.16 km2.

History
The settlement that existed in this area was primarily small artisan shops, that congregated around a small chapel dedicated to Santo António, in the late 16th century, when it was elevated to ecclesiastical parish. It includes the barrio of Madalena, situated around a now disappeared chapel to Santa Maria Madalena, also Santa Quitéria which is home to Madeira Shopping, the biggest shopping centre on Madeira.

Notable people

 * Cristiano Ronaldo

title: Santo António (Funchal)


text:
Talk:Providence Bruins

Logo
The primary logo of the Providence Bruins was changed prior to the 2012-13 AHL Regular season. The image represented under the organization's name is no longer used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IIVapoRII (talk • contribs) 02:10, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Providence Bruins


text:
Talk:José de Espronceda

name
I'm somewhat unsure of both his full name and the dates of his birth and death. Isomorphic 20:39, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Britannica lists: José de Espronceda y Delgado, born March 25, 1808, Almendralejo, Spain, died May 23, 1842, Madrid
 * I took the current name from an edit you made a long time ago, that I apparently accidentally reverted. See  and .  Do you remember where you got that name?  Isomorphic 22:30, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:José de Espronceda


text:
Talk:Lowell Devils

Name change
Nothing has been announced about a name change. The only indictation is the redirection of the former lock monsters website to lowelldevilshockey.com. The site only refers to the team as the "AHL's Lowell, Mass., franchise". As far as anyone is concerned: the domain name could just be a temporary placeholder for the Devil's AHL team in Lowell whose moniker is TBD. ccwaters 15:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There was an article in the Lowell Sun regarding the name change for next year, sometime in early to mid-June 2006.--Azathar 02:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, My comment was before the announcement. Its irrelevent now... ccwaters 03:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it is silly of them to call themselves the red devils. considering there is a town in indiana named lowell & their mascot is the red devils. i wonder why they didnt go with another color or mascot all together to avoid confusion. anyone know HOW this name was chosen? voted on by students? there should be a link somewhere saying "if you were looking for" or "not to be confused with" the lowell red devils of lowell senior high school in indiana.
 * The Lowell Devils are owned by the New Jersey Devils, hence the common name. Flibirigit 19:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Devils vs Lock Monsters...Same?
No discussion in five months, I'm going to close this as no consensus. If there's any objection just request another merger.-- Giants 27  ( Contribs  |  WP:CFL ) 18:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

So New Jersey Purchased The Lock Monsters, and changed their name to the "Devils". The article should reflect both the Lock Monsters and Devils because they are the same franchise, just under new ownership. And the Lock Monsters, therefore, should not be a defunct team (or at least have the entire article put on the devils article with a redirect to the devils on the lock monsters page).

An example of name changing history: Lowell should have their entire franchise in one article Mrsteak613 01:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The New York Yankees were known as the "Highlanders" and were referenced as such (as well as the yankees name) until 1913.
 * You'll notice that this franchise is treated no differently than any other AHL team that changed its name (ex Binghamton Dusters/Binghamton Whalers/Binghamton Rangers). ccwaters 13:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * But why should articles about AHL franchises be handled differently than those about the Texas Rangers (baseball) or Tennessee Titans or Los Angeles Lakers or dozens of other professional sports franchises that have had different names at different times? --R'n'B (call me Russ) 18:46, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe the major league examples you listed handled it wrong? Furthermore minor league sports are considerably more unstable/dynamic/whatever and chances are any given current franchise had been previously operating in 5 other markets with 7 other identities. ccwaters (talk) 19:53, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Lock Monsters/Devils should be treated like the old Central Hockey League's Fort Worth Wings/Texans: a change in the team's nickname. If, however, the franchise moved and replaced by a new team, then there should be two separate entries: the AHL's Springfield Indians moved and became the Worcester IceCats and the old International Hockey League's Flint Generals became the Saginaw Generals with the Springfield Falcons and Flint Spirits replacing the departed teams respectively. Raul17 (talk) 23:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Devils vs Lock Monsters...Same?(Reply)
Here's what I've learned after following the Lowell Lock Monsters for about their whole lifetime: They were the affiliates with the Carolina Hurricanes and Colorado Avalanche (NY Islanders, formerly). Another team, called the Albany River Rats was the affiliates of the New Jersey Devils at this time. If you will, the River Rats and the Lock Monsters "swapped" cities. The "Old" River Rats moved to Lowell to become the Lowell Devils. The Lock Monsters moved to Albany only to stay with the old name of "River Rats" This is just what I know. If you have any shouts or etc. just reply. Thanks! 24.128.209.176 (talk) 18:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Not really true though. The AHL teams actually swapped parent clubs(unofficially), not the other way around.  Either way, the businesses, the franchises, they have changed locations.  The River Rats franchise now resides in Charlotte.  The Lock Monsters/Devils franchise resides in Albany.  This has to be kept clear on these pages, since minor league teams tend to bounce from city to city. I see what you're saying though.  Kjscotte34 (talk) 18:39, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Why the roster changes?
I'm curious as to why the 2009-2010 roster is being updated. That season is over- all roster changes now should be listed on a 2010-2011 roster, if I'm not mistaken. Also, that roster should probably be on the Albany Devils page, not this one, as the Lowell incarnation of the team no longer exists. Kjscotte34 (talk) 12:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry. I was not thinking. Raul17 (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lowell Devils


text:
Talk:Springfield Falcons

Untitled
May 18, 2005: Dude, that logo hasn't been used for 2 seasons. Put the new logo up if you want. Ref: http://www.falconsahl.com/detpages/pressbox1655.shtml -ccwaters

title: Talk:Springfield Falcons


text:
Talk:Manchester Monarchs (AHL)

appearance
On my browser, at least, the year-by-year record overlaps the infobox so that it's partly unreadable - that's why I moved it, before somebody moved it back. Their undo also returned duplicate material (e.g., the arena is listed twice, as are the colors, and the logo is described when it's shown right there). Standardization is good, but not if it makes an article unreadable and/or badly organized. - DavidWBrooks 17:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

 * What browser/version? ccwaters 18:42, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Firefox 1.5.0.1 - DavidWBrooks 19:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

 * That's what I'm running (specifically Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.0.1) Gecko/20060209 Debian/1.5.dfsg+1.5.0.1-2 Firefox/1.5.0.1). I'm not seeing any issue. I typically run at 1920x1200, but I just looked at it 1024x768 and 800x600. ccwaters 19:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

 * ??? That's odd ... the infobox descends further than the text, right? What happens with your brower with the year-by-year pseudo-box at that point - does it get pushed down below the infobox, leaving white space below the text, or does it squish in to the left of the infobox?  - DavidWBrooks 20:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry, only reversed it because there's a set format/template for the NHL/AHL pages, and they're all supposed to be identical. I don't disagree with your edit, and the repetition of info is useless, but in Wikiproject Ice Hockey people are working hard to maintain consistency in the hockey pages. That's the ONLY reason the edit was reversed.Saradanger 03:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Team Logo
The team logo is now all black white and grey like the LA Kings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.2.246.31 (talk) 11:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Manchester Monarchs (AHL)


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Talk:Norfolk Admirals (AHL)

Owner(s)
I have temporarily removed these two passages from the article as these contradict one another.
 * Norfolk Tides Baseball Club (Managing Partner Ken Young)
 * Current owner of the Admirals is Jose Benitez, who also works with the City or Norfolk in the Office of Management and Budget and manages the day to day operations of the admirals in his spare time.

If anyone has a reliable source for team ownership, please post a link here. Thanks. Flibirigit 22:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

 * The current owner is Ken Young and Tides Baseball, LP . Lord Bodak 14:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Flibirigit 17:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Roster Edits
I've removed Karri Ramo from the roster as he has signed a two-year contract with Avangard Omsk of the KHL.

I've removed Jamie Heward from the roster as he was traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs on March 4, 2009 along with Olaf Kolzig, Andy Rogers and a 4th round pick for Richard Petiot.

I've removed Jay Rosehill from the roster as he currently plays with the Toronto Marlies.

I've removed Andy Rogers from the roster as he was traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs on March 4, 2009 along with Olaf Kolzig, Jamie Heward and a 4th round pick for Richard Petiot.

I've removed Brent Henley from the roster as he now plays with the Mississippi Sea Wolves

If anyone has any evidence to the contrary of these edits, please post them in a reply to this discussion. Thank you.

Mascots
I've added "rabbit" to the dog hybrid when speaking about hat trick. While I thought he was a dog for the longest time, I was told by a friend that he was in fact a rabbit. This is evident by the name "Hat Trick" as in "pulling a rabbit out of a hat." I left the hybrid dog because I felt like the costume is either purposely ambiguous, or I may be incorrect on my assumption that he is a rabbit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.247.2 (talk) 20:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Winning Streak
I edited some notes about the winning streak, particularly the surpassing of the pro hockey record set by IHL Peoria Rivermen in 1991. Winning streaks are not officially counted if they continue into the next season. I used to work for an American Hockey League team, so I know this for sure. For this reason, the Syracuse note has been removed for irrelevance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.179.221.89 (talk) 01:14, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Norfolk Admirals (AHL)


text:
Talk:Syracuse Crunch

Untitled
The Crunch were the affiliate of the Vancouver Canucks until the 2000-2001 season. The following season, the Canucks used the Kansas City Blades of the defunct IHL. Now they use the Manitoba Moose. www.syracuse-crunch.com

Hamilton Canucks
I have found "hints" that the Syracuse Crunch are actually the relocated Hamilton Canucks. Can anyone confirm this? It is quite possible considering the Crunch replaced the H-Canucks as the Vancouver Canucks affiliate. ccwaters 15:06, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes,in fact the Hamilton Canucks were moved to Syracuse,NY for the 1994-95 season as the Vancouver Canuck affiliate. For stats and general hockey info,see http://www.hockeydb.com or visit this great (unofficial) site. http://www.syracuse-crunch.com/

Mark Hartigan
Just want to let everyone know that at tonight's Syracuse Crunch game, Mark Hartigan has broken the team's career goal scoring record with a Hat-trick on January 19, 2007 in a 6-2 win over the Albany River Rats.

I have edited the records for the crunch to reflect it and put the accomplishment on Hartigan's player page. Mrsteak613 18:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Syracuse 5th anniversary.gif
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Fair use rationale for Image:Syracuse Crunch 1994.gif
Image:Syracuse Crunch 1994.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Current team roster
If anyone knows the info of the current team roster, I think it would be a good addition to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghyslyn (talk • contribs) 18:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I just noticed that Syracuse Crunch 2011-2012 Season has been created, but it contains hardly any Crunch-specific information not already mentioned here. Is there a need for a separate season article, or could we just merge what little isn't mentioned here and redirect? Huon (talk) 16:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern Huon. I plan on adding individual game scores with attendance numbers and scorers, similar to any NHL hockey teams season page (a good example would be 2010–11 Anaheim Ducks season). It is just going to take some time, there is a lot of information to input. Funtimewithdave (talk) 19:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Affiliations
Shouldn't there be an affiliation history somewhere? Powers T 23:46, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Syracuse Crunch


text:
Talk:Utah Grizzlies

The Utah Grizzlies were purchased by Dan Gilbert (Quicken Loans, Cleveland Caveliers) and a group of investors from Camelot Ventures and will be moved to Cleveland, Ohio for the 2007-2008 season. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.205.211 (talk • contribs)

 * Wrong Grizzlies. This article is regarding the active ECHL franchise. The suspended International Hockey League/American Hockey League franchise is found here: Utah Grizzlies (1995-2005) ccwaters 01:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Utah Grizzlies


text:
Talk:Prince Caspian (character)

Comments
Is there anything that needs to be added about Caspian or can I remove the stub?

Why do people keep adding links to Miraz? One link per article is fine. 204.97.134.110 18:00, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Terebinthia
There is no evidence that Terebinthia was part of the Narnian realm. Could someone remove those references here and in the succeeding kings' entries? I don't know how to edit succession boxes.

This entry is a summary of the plots of the books, it is not an explanation of the character. The structure and content is completly inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.122.177 (talk) 01:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Infoboxes
There is currently discussion on which of two infoboxes to use. The one seen on this page is also used on the Trumpkin article. The other infobox is in use on the Peter Pevensie and the Puddleglum articles. You can see a side by side comparison of the two here and participate in discussions about them at the ProjectNarnia talk page and on the InfoBox2 talk page. LloydSommerer 00:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Portrayal in movie
can somebody please add the actor who will play him in the movie which comes out next year?
 * Unfortunately, the name of the actor is not known! As soon as it's released the article will be updated. --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 18:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Euastace or Aslan?
Technically he was rejuvnated by Eustace, so I'm changing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.157.63 (talk) 21:56, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Redirect needed?
I just decided on a whim to look up Caspian while watching the Prince Caspian DVD, and did a search for "Caspian the Tenth", which went nowhere. I had to go to the list of Narnia characters to find this article. Shouldn't someone (as in someone who knows how, unlike myself) set up a redirect for the phrase "Caspian the Tenth" that points here? -- Pennyforth (talk) 03:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Done. KitHutch (talk) 18:21, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Prince caspian in love third film
what is the name of prince caspians love intrest in the dawn treader —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.244.236.147 (talk) 17:24, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Do you mean Ramandu's daughter? (If so, her own name is not given in the books.) Elphion (talk) 01:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

King of Archenland?
I think not! Archenland had always remain independent from Narnia, and an unnamed Archenlandish king was mentioned in Prince Caspian. The line of King Col of Archenland went on reigning all the way to the end of Narnia.

Caspian and Susan
The romance between Caspian and Susan is strictly an invention of the film. Can you star-struck film fans please give it a rest? Elphion (talk) 01:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Well said! But would it be worth mentioning that in the third film, even though he more or less states that he still has feelings for Susan, he's smitten by Lilliandil the minute he sees her in her human form? DarkDancer06 (talk) 23:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Succession box
Shouldn't we include a succession box even though he's a fictional character? After all, the author DID provide regnal lists in the books. -The Mysterious El Willstro 209.183.184.247 (talk) 05:34, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Profile picture
Has anybody got a more updated picture of Caspian from Voyage of the Dawn Treader? Because it might look better than the current one. DarkDancer06 (talk) 23:03, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Page Move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 11:45, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Caspian X → Prince Caspian (character) – Seriously, Caspian X is a terrible name for the character. The character is introduced as Prince Caspian, is refereed to as Caspian throughout the novels apart from a few formal statements where his full title is used. As per WP:COMMONNAME we should use the most frequently used name. GimliDotNet ( Speak to me, Stuff I've done )  09:35, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Support Especially if he is a fictional character. "Prince Caspian" does fit the COMMONNAME criteria. Hill Crest's WikiLaser (Boom.) (talk) 15:56, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Oppose He is only "Prince" Caspian for one book (and not even the whole book), and is a major character in three books. Since "Prince Caspian" is also the name of a book, all the more reason to avoid a variant of Prince Caspian for the character page. tahc chat 16:54, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment He's a major character in two books, and a minor character in two books. If you can point to any passages where he's referred to as Caspian X I'd be happy to keep it. Prince Caspian (character) is a perfectly plausible article name, see Harry Potter (character) as one example. Per WP:COMMONNAME most people would know the character as Prince Caspian, just compare googling "Caspian X" and "Prince Caspian", 104,000 results for Caspian X and 5 million for Prince Caspian GimliDotNet ( Speak to me,  Stuff I've done )  17:28, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

 * "Oppose" For the reasons above (he's only 'Prince' Caspian in part of one book and appears in three other books). Also, this page has been Caspian X for a number of years and there has been no problems. KitHutch (talk) 19:32, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Having the article name for a number of years is not a valid reason for not moving the page. Could you also provide evidence that the character is widely known as Caspian X, that is all that is in question. GimliDotNet ( Speak to me,  Stuff I've done )  19:37, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Note I've done a search on books.google.com, both Dawn Treader and Silver Chair and the phrase 'Caspian X' doesn't return any results. GimliDotNet ( Speak to me,  Stuff I've done )  19:50, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Weak Support Because it is how people refer to the character. Sure, he's not always "Prince" Caspian in the books, but it is how we are initially introduced to him. Weak support, because there really isn't anything wrong with the way it is now. LloydSommerer (talk) 23:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Comment Caspian (character) or Caspian (Narnia) could be used -- 76.65.128.252 (talk) 00:09, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support or Caspian (Narnia) equally okay. C S Lewis' Prince Caspian, the return to Narnia 1962 has "Caspian the Tenth, King of Narnia, and long may he reign!" answered the Dwarf. "That is to say, he ought to be King of Narnia and we hope he will be. " but not "Caspian X". That is only found in Narnia guides. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:11, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Third part sources overwhelmingly use "Prince Caspian." First Light (talk) 16:20, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Um, he's a fictional character? The current title is more than a little misleading for a reader who isn't familiar with the Narnia series. Just because there isn't actually a "Caspian X" doesn't mean we shouldn't clarify the name. Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 18:49, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

title: Talk:Prince Caspian (character)


text:
Talk:St. John's Maple Leafs

I think that the st.john's mapleleafs were fine where they were "The are truly the team that others looked up to" according to everyone who had a part in moveing them to toronto. They said it's because the leafs need players close on hand. So i guess it had nothing to do with the fact of money not. if it was realy that bad why were they here for 14 years. You finally reilized the fact that your to far away. No it because that the head people beilved that they would have way more money well lets see how your doing in a year over there. you had a great staduim if you relly liked the team as much as you said you did then why did the people that are so happy about our great team move it. another team in the same league.

--- Regular Season ---  Playoffs # Player Name                                    GP    G    A  Pts  PIM  GP   G   A Pts PIM -- -- 10 Donald MacLean................................ 75  33   54   87   49   9   5   5  10   6 16 Bob Wren...................................... 69  24   49   73   83  11   5   7  12   6 21 Nathan Dempsey................................ 75  13   48   61   66  11   1   5   6   8 27 Bobby House................................... 71  36   20   56   40  11   6   2   8   6 16 Paul Healey................................... 58  27   29   56   30   2   1   1   2   8 61 Jeff Farkas................................... 71  16   34   50   49   4   0   0   0   0 23 Alexei Ponikarovsky........................... 72  21   27   48   74   5   2   1   3   8 11 Nikolai Antropov.............................. 34  11   24   35   47  --  --  --  --  -- 22 Craig Mills................................... 74  10   21   31  137  11   3   3   6  22  2 Morgan Warren................................. 80  11   14   25   46  11   0   0   0   8 33 Karel Pilar................................... 52  10   14   24   26  --  --  --  --  -- *4 D.J. Smith.................................... 59   6   10   16  152  --  --  --  --  --  6 Christian Chartier............................ 65   5   10   15   18  11   0   4   4   4 17 Doug Doull.................................... 36   5    8   13  166   9   0   1   1  17    Andre Payette, Manchester..................... 20   3    0    3   86  --  --  --  --  --                   Houston........................ 1   0    0    0    0  --  --  --  --  --  7                St. John's..................... 33   2    8   10  157  11   1   4   5  39                   Totals......................... 54   5    8   13  243  11   1   4   5  39 24 Luca Cereda................................... 71   5    8   13   23  11   2   1   3  10  3 Petr Svoboda.................................. 74   3   10   13   58  11   0   1   1   6 26 Allan Rourke.................................. 62   2    9   11   48  10   0   2   2   6 25 Anders Eriksson............................... 25   4    6   10   14  11   0   5   5   6    Marc Moro, Milwaukee.......................... 41   1    8    9   81  --  --  --  --  -- 15            St. John's......................... 7   1    0    1   21  --  --  --  --  --               Totals............................. 48   2    8   10  102  --  --  --  --  --  8 Francois Bouchard............................. 51   3    5    8   40  11   0   1   1   4 95 Mihail Travnicek.............................. 23   3    2    5   17  --  --  --  --  -- 25 Frank Mrazek.................................. 16   0    4    4   12  --  --  --  --  -- 15 Robb Palahnuk................................. 9   1    2    3   20  11   1   1   2   4 12 Jonathan Gagnon............................... 12   0    3    3    4   8   0   0   0   0 20 Jay Harrison.................................. 7   0    1    1    2  10   0   0   0   4 30 Sebastien Centomo (G)......................... 25   0    1    1    6  11   0   1   1   4 32 Mikael Tellqvist (G).......................... 28   0    1    1    0   1   0   0   0   0 34 Mike Minard (G)............................... 35   0    0    0    4  --  --  --  --  --    Marty Clapton................................. --  --   --   --   --   6   1   0   1   0 --  --
 * 20 Marty Wilford................................. 60    4   21   25   70  --  --  --  --  --
 * 33 Jacques Lariviere.............................  7    0    0    0   55  --  --  --  --  --

 * ????????? ccwaters 01:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:St. John's Maple Leafs


text:
Private Wings

Private Wings Flugcharter GmbH is a German charter airline that was founded in 1991 and operates chartered corporate, cargo and air ambulance services out of Berlin Brandenburg Airport. Its head office is located in the General Aviation Terminal (Allgemeine Luftfahrt) on the property of Berlin Brandenburg Airport in Schönefeld, Brandenburg.

Fleet
Private Wings is the largest remaining civil operator of the Dornier 328. In May 2023, Dornier successor Deutsche Aircraft announced Private Wings as the launch customer of the updated D328eco model, with 5 aircraft on order. As of May 2022, the Private Wings fleet consists of the following aircraft:

Accidents and incidents

 * On 19 February 1996 at 09:54 local time, a Private Wings Cessna Citation II (registered D-CASH) crashed near Freilassing, Germany, killing the two pilots and eight passengers on board. The aircraft was on an executive flight from Berlin Tempelhof Airport to Salzburg Airport and the pilots had already begun the final approach, when severe icing conditions were encountered, leading to a stall and subsequent crash of the aircraft into a forest 3 nmi short of the runway. The accident investigation concluded that there was also a short circuit in the aircraft's electrical systems, which might have contributed to the crash.

title: Private Wings


text:
Talk:Lausanne HC

Fair use rationale for Image:Lausanne-hockey-club-logo.gif
Image:Lausanne-hockey-club-logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposed move of LHC dab page
I've proposed moving LHC to LHC (disambiguation) to allow LHC to redirect to Large Hadron Collider with an appropriate transclusion. I'm notifying editors of each of the pages linked from the current dab page to help generate discussion from interested parties. The discussion can be found at Talk:LHC. -- Mark Chovain 01:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lausanne HC


text: Talk:Acadie–Bathurst Titan

title: Talk:Acadie–Bathurst Titan


text:
CYCLADES

The CYCLADES computer network was a French research network created in the early 1970s. It was one of the pioneering networks experimenting with the concept of packet switching and, unlike the ARPANET, was explicitly designed to facilitate internetworking.

The CYCLADES network was the first to make the hosts responsible for the reliable delivery of data, rather than this being a centralized service of the network itself. Datagrams were exchanged on the network using transport protocols that do not guarantee reliable delivery, but only attempt best-effort. To empower the network leaves the hosts to perform error-correction, the network ensured end-to-end protocol transparency, a concept later to be known as the end-to-end principle. This simplified network design, reduced network latency, and reduced the opportunities for single point failures. The experience with these concepts led to the design of key features of the Internet Protocol in the ARPANET project.

The network was sponsored by the French government, through the Institut de Recherche en lnformatique et en Automatique (IRIA), the national research laboratory for computer science in France, now known as Inria, which served as the co-ordinating agency. Several French computer manufacturers, research institutes and universities contributed to the effort. CYCLADES was designed and directed by Louis Pouzin.

Conception and deployment
Planning for the project began in 1971. Design and staffing started in 1972, and November 1973 saw the first demonstration, using three hosts and one packet switch.

Pouzin coined the term catenet in 1973, in a note circulated to the International Network Working Group, to describe a system of packet-switched communication networks interconnected via gateways. He later published these ideas in a 1974 paper "A Proposal for Interconnecting Packet Switching Networks".

Deployment of the network continued in 1974, with three packet switches installed by February, although at that point the network was only operational for three hours each day. By June the network was up to seven switches, and was available throughout the day for experimental use.

A terminal concentrator was also developed that year, since time-sharing was still a prevalent mode of computer use. In 1975, the network shrank slightly due to budgetary constraints, but the setback was only temporary. At that point, the network provided remote login, remote batch and file transfer user application services.

By 1976 the network was in full deployment, eventually numbering 20 nodes with connections to NPL in London, ESA in Rome, and to the European Informatics Network (EIN).

Technical details
CYCLADES used a layered architecture, which was adopted in the Internet. The basic packet transmission like function, named CIGALE, was novel; it provided an unreliable datagram service (the word was coined by Louis Pouzin by combining data and telegram). Since the packet switches no longer had to ensure correct delivery of data, this greatly simplified their design.

"“The inspiration for datagrams had two sources. One was Donald Davies' studies. He had done some simulation of datagram networks, although he had not built any, and it looked technically viable. The second inspiration was I like things simple. I didn't see any real technical motivation to overlay two levels of end-to-end protocols. I thought one was enough.”"

The CIGALE network featured a distance vector routing protocol, and allowed experimentation with various metrics. it also included a time synchronization protocol in all the packet switches. CIGALE included early attempts at performing congestion control by dropping excess packets.

The name CIGALE – French for cicada – originates from the fact that the developers installed a speaker at each computer, so that "it went 'chirp chirp chirp' like cicadas" when a packet passed a computer.

An end-to-end protocol built on top of that provided a reliable transport service, on top of which applications were built. It provided a reliable sequence of user-visible data units called letters, rather than the reliable byte stream of TCP. The transport protocol was able to deal with out-of-order and unreliable delivery of datagrams, using the now-standard mechanisms of end-end acknowledgments and timeouts; it also featured sliding windows and end-to-end flow control.

Demise
By 1976, the French PTT was developing Transpac, a packet network based on the emerging X.25 standard. The academic debates between datagram and virtual circuit networks continued for some time, but were eventually cut short by bureaucratic decisions.

Data transmission was a state monopoly in France at the time, and IRIA needed a special dispensation to run the CYCLADES network. The PTT did not agree to funding by the government of a competitor to their Transpac network, and insisted that the permission and funding be rescinded. By 1981, Cyclades was forced to shut down.

Legacy
The most important legacy of CYCLADES was in showing that moving the responsibility for reliability into the hosts was workable, and produced a well-functioning service network. It also showed that it greatly reduced the complexity of the packet switches. The concept became a cornerstone in the design of the Internet.

The network was a fertile ground for experimentation, and allowed a generation of French computer scientists to experiment with networking concepts. Louis Pouzin and the CYCLADES alumni initiated a number of follow-on projects at IRIA to experiment with local area networks, satellite networks, the Unix operating system, and the message passing operating system Chorus.

Hubert Zimmermann used his experience in CYCLADES to influence the design of the OSI model, which is still a common pedagogical tool.

Gérard Le Lann worked with Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn to incorporate concepts from the CYCLADES project into the original design of the Transmission Control Program.

CYCLADES alumni and researchers at IRIA/INRIA were also influential in spreading adoption of the Internet in France, eventually witnessing the success of the datagram-based Internet, and the demise of the X.25 and ATM virtual circuit networks.

title: CYCLADES


text:
Talk:Charlottetown Islanders

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:12, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Flag of Charlottetown.svg

title: Talk:Charlottetown Islanders


text:
Talk:Cape Breton Eagles

Untitled
Luc Bordon has never played for Cape Breton. The above is false. Bourdon did play for Cape Breton. He was acquired at the trade deadline in 2006-07.
 * Bourdon played 23 games with CB in 2006-07 and this is extremely easy to verify. Claims to the contrary are laughable.Freshfighter9talk 00:44, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Fan site
I have removed the Cape Smokey car accident from the article. Although I'm sure it was a traumatic experience for the occupants of the vehicle, it is not an encyclopedic entry. Flibirigit (talk) 06:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cape Breton Eagles


text: Talk:Baie-Comeau Drakkar

title: Talk:Baie-Comeau Drakkar


text:
Talk:Durham Wasps

Fair use rationale for Image:LogoDurhamWasps.jpg
Image:LogoDurhamWasps.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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 * I'm still concerned about the logo - it is not free use as it will be copyright to Durham Wasps and its creator is unlikely to have been dead 70 years in any case. I will delete the logo in no less than two weeks if there is no supporting evidence that it is acceptable here.--Teach46 (talk) 16:43, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Well over two weeks has elapsed, no one has commented or justified the use of this logo, therefore I have deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teach46 (talk • contribs) 19:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal
Newcastle Jesters are the same team and only existed for one season under that name anyway Abcmaxx (talk) 00:17, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge: the team was in Newcastle for 5 years, not 1; and continuity (at least of the fans) could well be made for Durham City Wasps rather than the Newcastle team. The later revival games suggested that focus of the Durham Wasps fans remained in Durham. Klbrain (talk) 17:26, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Durham Wasps


text:
Talk:Kelowna Rockets

Fair use rationale for Image:Kelownarockets.gif
– Resolute 22:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Team logo
Following the deletion of "Image:Kelownarockets.gif", I've uploaded the official SVG file, which was converted from it's EPS source. — Hucz (talk) 23:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kelowna Rockets


text:
Talk:Gatineau Olympiques

Fair use rationale for Image:Gatineauolympiques.gif

 * Fair use completed. Flibirigit 16:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Hullolympiques.jpg

 * Fair use completed. Flibirigit 16:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gatineau Olympiques


text: Template:Hubei

title: Template:Hubei


text:
Talk:St. John's Fog Devils

Ejov's nationality
I changed Ejov's nationality on the page from Russia to Canada, because although it's true he comes from the other side of the Atlantic, he moved to Canada at a young age and in the CHL rules, he is considered a Canadian player and not an European, as teams are only allowed two Europeans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.14.50 (talk • contribs)

2005 - 2006 Roster
It would be nice if the roster for each year to be preserved, not sure if there is any requirement but certainly it would be a great place to run to when researching past players and teammates. Just a thought HJKeats 17:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Roster and statistics for each season are available at www.hockeydb.com. Flibirigit 18:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:FogDevilsLogo.jpg
Image:FogDevilsLogo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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 * Fair use rationale completed. Flibirigit 17:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Ref
http://www.thetelegram.com/Home/2008-01-23/article-1449822/Fog-Devils-snuffed/1

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:37, 22 April 2016 (UTC).

title: Talk:St. John's Fog Devils


text:
Talk:Saskatoon Blades

Conference/Division titles
I want to start a little discussion on this part of the infobox to hopefully achieve some consensus here. I was the editor that first added this info ("Conference titles"), and I'll say that my original intention was to list championship appearances, which would today be considered conference titles. It was rightly pointed out by 207.47.248.186 that this was a-historical, since the league was not always organized into conferences. Flibirigit then changed it to Division titles, and changed the dates to correspond to when the Blades finished the regular season atop their division, which is not unreasonable, although perhaps becomes a problem by the 1990s when there was also a divisional playoff champion (i.e. the two finalists were the division winners).

Can we discuss here what would be the most appropriate solution?

Is it worth trying to list finals appearances if this did not always historically constitute a type of 'championship'? Is it confusing to list division championships when this ultimately has both regular season and playoff connotations? Right now I'm interested in hearing others' perspectives! Other justin (talk) 20:51, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

 * The best place for such a discussion would be at Template talk:Infobox ice hockey team with a notice placed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey. Interpretation of the fields in the infobox extend far beyond this team, or the Western Hockey League. Flibirigit (talk) 20:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, fair enough! Thanks. Other justin (talk) 16:42, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saskatoon Blades


text:
Talk:Pee Dee Pride

External links modified
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title: Talk:Pee Dee Pride


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Talk:Johnstown Chiefs

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External links modified
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title: Talk:Johnstown Chiefs


text: Talk:Indiana Ice

title: Talk:Indiana Ice


text:
Talk:Red Deer Rebels

Fair use rationale for Image:Reddeerrebels.GIF
Image:Reddeerrebels.GIF is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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 * Fixed. Resolute 23:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Red Deer Rebels


text: Talk:Indianapolis Ice

title: Talk:Indianapolis Ice