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Pyrmont Bridge

The Pyrmont Bridge, a heritage-listed swing bridge across Cockle Bay, is located in Darling Harbour, part of Port Jackson, west of the central business district in the City of Sydney local government area of New South Wales, Australia. Opened in 1902, the bridge initially carried motor vehicle traffic via the Pyrmont Bridge Road between the central business district and. Since 1981 the bridge has carried pedestrian and bicycle traffic only, as motor vehicles were diverted to adjacent freeway overpasses. The bridge was added to the New South Wales State Heritage Register on 28 June 2002, the centenary of its opening.

The Jimmy Barnes' 1985 song "I'd die to be with you Tonight" was filmed on the Bridge, with it in the swing-out configuration. (See:I'd Die to be with You Tonight)

History
The first Pyrmont Bridge was opened on 17 March 1858, and was a wooden pile bridge with an iron centre 'swing panel' to allow ships to pass. In the first two weeks 20,000 pedestrians paid the one penny toll. It was also crossed by "932 carts and drays, 43 gigs, 17 carriages and 125 horse and rider." When the NSW government bought the bridge for £52,500 from the Pyrmont Bridge Company in 1884, they abolished the toll.

The wooden Pyrmont Bridge vanished with the construction in 1902 of a new steel bridge which took 33 months to build and was completed in time to accommodate Sydney's first cars. In 1891 competitive designs were invited for a new bridge on the south side of the old structure, but due to the economic depression no further action was taken until 1894, when, after prolonged inquiry and the consideration of about twenty six schemes, the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works decided in favour of a design for a steel bridge with a swing span of 54 ft, affording two 70 ft clear fairways, submitted by the Department of Public Works (PWD).

The foundations stone of the new bridge was laid by Edward William O'Sullivan, State Minister for Works, on 6 September 1899; and the bridge opened for traffic on 28 June 1902, by Harry Rawson, Governor of New South Wales. Powered by electricity from the Ultimo Powerhouse, the swing bridge could be opened and closed in 45 seconds. Percy Allan, PWD Engineer-in-Chief of bridge design, designed the Pyrmont Bridge and over 550 bridges.

As part of the construction of the Western Distributor project, the eastern abutment of Pyrmont Bridge was demolished and redirected in 1980, with City-bound traffic crossing the bridge temporarily funnelled onto a northbound viaduct to enter the city or access the Harbour Bridge via King Street, while the viaduct across the southern end of Cockle Bay was being constructed. Just a year later, the Western Distributor viaduct to King Street was completed across the eastern end of Pyrmont Bridge, the temporary access ramp from the bridge to the viaduct was removed, and the bridge was permanently closed to traffic. The Government ordered the bridge to be demolished, but later revoked this decision. In 1984 the Darling Harbour Authority was formed with the task of redeveloping Darling Harbour. The Pyrmont Bridge was restored, with the swing span in full working order, and incorporated as a pedestrian bridge in the redevelopment of Darling Harbour. An elevated pedestrian walkway was constructed across the Western Distributor viaduct to link the eastern end of the bridge to Market Street at surface level. A section of the Monorail was built across the bridge at this time. The Pyrmont Bridge was re-opened to pedestrian traffic in 1988.

Following the end of the monorail's 25 years of operation in July 2013, the monorail track was removed from the bridge. Some changes that had been made to the bridge during the construction of the monorail were then reversed, including the conversion of the electrical braking system back to a hand-operated system, and the relocation of the control cab to the middle of the bridge.

After the removal of the monorail, the Sydney Harbour Foreshore Authority began discussing plans to give the bridge a facelift to coincide with Darling Harbour's $2.5b redevelopment. The SHFA commissioned a design brief to look at options for future enhancements including furniture, lighting and pop-up cafes. "Pyrmont Bridge will remain open and accessible to the public...Any future use proposals must not impact on the bridge's surviving historic fabric, or its technological significance, or prevent the continued use as an open swing span bridge". The NSW Government will invest in a $23m renewal of heritage-listed Pyrmont Bridge. The project is part of a $73m commitment over the next four years to protect heritage assets along Sydney Harbour foreshore. The projets include $15m to replace ferry wharves in Cockle Bay and $20m to refurbish public spaces at Campbell's Cove at the Rocks and Darling Harbour.

Description
The foundation stone for the new bridge was laid on 6 December 1899 by E. W. O'Sullivan and the bridge was opened for traffic on 28 June 1902 by the Governor of New South Wales, Harry Rawson. The bridge was designed under the engineering supervision of Percy Allan. The bridge had one of the largest swing spans in the world at the time of its construction and it was one of the first to be powered by electricity. Allan also designed the similar Glebe Island Swing Bridge, completed in 1903.

The Pyrmont Bridge is 369 m long and cost £112,500 to build. The bridge is made up of 14 spans with Australian ironbark timber used on 12 spans, while the two central spans, which swing, are constructed from steel. The swingspan weighs 1000 t and is supported on a base made from concrete and Hawkesbury Sandstone. The base is filled with mass concrete and weighs 6800 t. The swingspan is 13 m in diameter and 19 m deep. The water is 6.5 m deep and the base extends a further 10 m below the sea floor.

Pyrmont Bridge takes approximately 60 seconds to open completely to 83 degrees. It has to be opened for vessels more than 7 m high. Vessels/barges up to 21.5 m wide can pass through the channel once the Bridge has been opened. Pyrmont Bridge is driven by the original two 50 HP 600 V DC General Electric type 57 electric motors. Manual drum-type General Electric tramway controllers are used to drive the motors for the swingspan and gates. Power to operate the bridge was originally drawn from the Ultimo Power House (now the Powerhouse Museum). As a young engineer, J.J.C. Bradfield helped design the sandstone abutment walls at each end of Pyrmont Bridge.

In 1981 the Wran government ordered the bridge to be demolished, but later revoked this decision. The bridge was closed to vehicular traffic on 7 August 1981, the traffic having been diverted over the Western Distributor freeway structures built further south of Cockle Bay, and it was then re-opened as a pedestrian bridge as part of the re-development of Darling Harbour as a recreational pedestrian precinct. The swing bridge remains in operation, and opens to a schedule managed by the Sydney Harbour Foreshore Authority.

In 1992 Engineers Australia recognised the bridge as a National Engineering Landmark.

Modifications
As built, the bridge had stone abutments on both ends, the western end connecting it to Union Street and the eastern end connecting it to Market Street. In 1980, most of the eastern abutment was demolished as part of the construction of the Western Distributor. A section connected to the bridge remains, and the isolated easternmost plinth and lamppost can still be seen near the corner of Market Street and Sussex Street. In 1980, the eastern end of the bridge was initially connected via a ramp to the viaduct leading north to King Street, but this was demolished in 1981 when the rest of the viaduct was completed around the southern end of Cockle Bay. Only a narrow pedestrian and cycle path still connects the eastern end of the bridge to the viaduct and to King Street. A separate pedestrian bridge was constructed over the Western Distributor roadway to connect the eastern end of the bridge to Market Street at surface level.

Between 1988 and 2013, the bridge carried the elevated Sydney Monorail, which travelled between Darling Harbour and the Sydney central business district. The monorail track rested on a pivot that allowed the track to remain stationary while the bridge swung underneath. The pivot allowed the monorail to continue to cross the bridge even when the bridge was opened. The construction of the monorail led to some changes to the bridge, including the electrification of the previously hand-operated brakes used to control the bridge's swing, and the relocation of the control cab six metres away from the middle of the bridge (so that the control cab would not hit the monorail track when the bridge is open).

Upon the closure of the Monorail in June 2013 the hydraulic lifting rams and support infrastructure were removed, and the control cab was relocated to its original position in the middle of the bridge.

Heritage listing
As at 24 July 2001, Pyrmont Bridge is an item of State heritage significance for its aesthetic, historical and scientific cultural values. An essential link between the city and the inner western suburbs, Pyrmont Bridge is closely associated with the economic and social development of Sydney at the end of the 19th century.

Pyrmont Bridge is closely associated with Percy Allan, PWD Engineer-in-Chief of bridge design, who was responsible for the introduction of American timber bridge practice to NSW and designed over 500 bridges in NSW. The quality of the carved stonework of the piers and portals added to the aesthetic appeal of the bridge.

At the time of construction the swing span of Pyrmont Bridge was one of the largest in the world. It was one of the first swing bridges to be powered by electricity. The timber approach spans demonstrate a rare example of deck type Allan trusses; there being no other known example. The bridge's Australian design and technological innovation was a source of pride for the people of NSW.

Despite the demolition of the eastern approach to the bridge and the construction of the monorail track, Pyrmont Bridge retains its essential heritage values.

Pyrmont Bridge was listed on the New South Wales State Heritage Register on 28 June 2002 having satisfied the following criteria.

The place is important in demonstrating the course, or pattern, of cultural or natural history in New South Wales.

Pyrmont Bridge, an essential link between the city and the inner western suburbs, is closely associated with the economic and social development of Sydney at the end of the 19th century. Pyrmont Bridge is closely associated with Percy Allan, PWD Engineer-in-Chief of bridge design, with the assistance of JJ Bradfield and Gordon Edgell. Percy Allen was responsible for the introduction of American timber bridge practice to NSW, and designed over 500 bridges in NSW.

The place has a strong or special association with a person, or group of persons, of importance of cultural or natural history of New South Wales's history.

Pyrmont Bridge is closely associated with Percy Allan, PWD Engineer-in-Chief of bridge design, with the assistance of JJ Bradfield and Gordon Edgell. Percy Allan was responsible for the introduction of American timber bridge practice to NSW, and designed over 500 bridges in NSW.

The place is important in demonstrating aesthetic characteristics and/or a high degree of creative or technical achievement in New South Wales.

Pyrmont Bridge demonstrates a high level of aesthetic value in the stonework and carved stone detailing of the bridge approaches, pivot pier and rest piers, as well as displaying the high aesthetic values of the timber and steel bridge structures. The watchhouse also demonstrates fine architectural detailing.

The place has a strong or special association with a particular community or cultural group in New South Wales for social, cultural or spiritual reasons.

When completed the Pyrmont Bridge was regarded as a landmark in the development of Australian engineering skills and technological innovation, being favourably compared with the technical achievements of the recently completed Tower Bridge in London. Its Australian design, technological innovation and construction made it a source of pride for the people of NSW.

The place has potential to yield information that will contribute to an understanding of the cultural or natural history of New South Wales.

When completed the Pyrmont Bridge was regarded as a landmark in the development of Australian engineering skills and technological innovation, being favourably compared with the technical achievements of the recently completed Tower Bridge in London. The bridge's innovative design included; the size of the swing span and speed of operation; development of the timber bridge truss; caisson construction; design of the swing span bearings; and use of electric power. The design of the approach spans represent the highest level of development of the timber truss.

The place possesses uncommon, rare or endangered aspects of the cultural or natural history of New South Wales.

The timber approach spans demonstrate a rare example of deck type Allan trusses; there being no other known example.

title: Pyrmont Bridge


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User talk:Cudjoe~enwiki

Welcome
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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Cudjoe~enwiki


text:
Opdorp

Opdorp is one of the three towns making up the municipality of Buggenhout in East Flanders, Belgium. Sometimes it's classified in the Denderstreek.

Opdorp is at the geographical centre of Flanders, Belgium. It is also the point at which three provinces meet: Brabant, Antwerp, and East Flanders.

Opdorp developed around a triangular dries (village square). The dries contains a chapel and the village pump. The town hall, school and former monastery were built around the square.

title: Opdorp


text: Category:Latvian mathematicians

title: Category:Latvian mathematicians


text:
Diammonium phosphate

Diammonium phosphate (DAP; IUPAC name diammonium hydrogen phosphate; chemical formula (NH4)2(HPO4)) is one of a series of water-soluble ammonium phosphate salts that can be produced when ammonia reacts with phosphoric acid.

Solid diammonium phosphate shows a dissociation pressure of ammonia as given by the following expression and equation:

 * (NH4)2HPO4(s) <-> NH3(g) + (NH4)H2PO4(s)

At 100 °C, the dissociation pressure of diammonium phosphate is approximately 5 mmHg.

According to the diammonium phosphate MSDS from CF Industries, Inc., decomposition starts as low as 70 °C: "Hazardous Decomposition Products: Gradually loses ammonia when exposed to air at room temperature. Decomposes to ammonia and monoammonium phosphate at around 70 °C (158 °F). At 155 °C (311 °F), DAP emits phosphorus oxides, nitrogen oxides and ammonia."

Uses
DAP is used as a fertilizer. When applied as plant fertilizer, it temporarily increases the soil pH, but over a long term the treated ground becomes more acidic than before, upon nitrification of the ammonium. It is incompatible with alkaline chemicals because its ammonium ion is more likely to convert to ammonia in a high-pH environment. The average pH in solution is 7.5–8. The typical formulation is 18-46-0 (18% N, 46% P2O5, 0% K2O).

DAP can be used as a fire retardant. It lowers the combustion temperature of the material, decreases maximum weight loss rates, and causes an increase in the production of residue or char. These are important effects in fighting wildfires as lowering the pyrolysis temperature and increasing the amount of char formed reduces that amount of available fuel and can lead to the formation of a firebreak. It is the largest component of some popular commercial firefighting products.

DAP is also used as a yeast nutrient in winemaking and mead-making; as an additive in some brands of cigarettes purportedly as a nicotine enhancer; to prevent afterglow in matches, in purifying sugar; as a flux for soldering tin, copper, zinc and brass; and to control precipitation of alkali-soluble and acid-insoluble colloidal dyes on wool.

Natural occurrence
The compound occurs in the nature as the exceedingly rare mineral phosphammite. The related dihydrogen compound occurs as the mineral biphosphammite. Both are related to guano deposits.

title: Diammonium phosphate


text:
Hydroforming

Hydroforming is a means of shaping ductile metals such as aluminium, brass, low alloy steel, and stainless steel into lightweight, structurally stiff and strong pieces. One of the largest applications of cost-effective hydroforming is the automotive industry, which makes use of the complex shapes made possible by hydroforming to produce stronger, lighter, and more rigid unibody structures for vehicles. This technique is particularly popular with the high-end sports car industry and is also frequently employed in the shaping of aluminium tubes for bicycle frames.

Hydroforming is a specialized type of die forming that uses a high pressure hydraulic fluid to press room temperature working material into a die. To hydroform aluminium into a vehicle's frame rail, a hollow tube of aluminium is placed inside a negative mold that has the shape of the desired result. High pressure hydraulic pumps then inject fluid at very high pressure inside the aluminium tube which causes it to expand until it matches the mold. The hydroformed aluminium is then removed from the mold. Hydroforming allows complex shapes with concavities to be formed, which would be difficult or impossible with standard solid die stamping. Hydroformed parts can often be made with a higher stiffness-to-weight ratio and at a lower per unit cost than traditional stamped or stamped and welded parts. Virtually all metals capable of cold forming can be hydroformed, including aluminium, brass, carbon and stainless steel, copper, and

Electrohydraulic forming uses electrodes to vaporize the fluid explosively in an arc to deform the working material.

Sheet hydroforming
This process is based on the 1950s patent for hydramolding by Fred Leuthesser, Jr. and John Fox of the Schaible Company of Cincinnati, Ohio in the United States. It was originally used in producing kitchen spouts. This was done because in addition to the strengthening of the metal, hydromolding also produced less "grainy" parts, allowing for easier metal finishing. In sheet hydroforming there are bladder forming (where there is a bladder that contains the liquid; no liquid contacts the sheet) and hydroforming where the fluid contacts the sheet (no bladder). Bladder forming is sometimes called flexforming. Flexforming is mostly used for low volume productions, as in the aerospace field. Forming with the fluid in direct contact with the part can be done either with a male solid punch (this version is sometimes called hydro-mechanical deep drawing ) or with a female solid die. In hydro-mechanical deep drawing, a work piece is placed on a draw ring (blank holder) over a male punch then a hydraulic chamber surrounds the work piece and a relatively low initial pressure seats the work piece against the punch. The punch then is raised into the hydraulic chamber and pressure is increased to as high as 100 MPa (15000 psi) which forms the part around the punch. Then the pressure is released and punch retracted, hydraulic chamber lifted, and the process is complete.

Among these techniques hydraulic bulge testing allows for an increased work hardening of sheet material by distinctive stretching operations and provides better shape accuracy for complex parts. Hence, by selecting proper material and the forming parameters for hydraulic sheet bulging study one can determine Forming Limit Curves (FLCs).

Significance
 * Hydraulic bulge testing is more appropriate for sheet metal forming operations as deformation mode is bi-axial rather than uniaxial. Also it provides flow curves for the materials with extended range of plastic strain levels up to 70% before bursting occurs.
 * It is helpful to generate the FLCs which will be reliable sense of reference input to the explicit solver like LS-DYNA. These obtained FLCs are used as load curve input for such solvers for analysis.
 * FLCs also serve the best for identifying the exact zone for forming operations without getting affected with localized necking and other possible defects while forming.
 * Hydraulic bulge testing would be helpful to calculate the Strain hardening coefficient- "n" (i.e. Work hardening coefficient) of the material, to determine the ability of the material to be formed.
 * A simple and versatile approach.
 * A controlled pressure distribution over part surface during forming can be used to “control” the sheet thickness and postpone localized necking.
 * The use of only single form surface tooling, which saves time and expense in the manufacture of tooling. Absence of rigid tool contact on one surface also reduces surface friction and thus surface defects, resulting in a good surface finish.

Alternative names, other variants and similar processes

 * Hydromec (Hydromechanical deep drawing)
 * Aquadraw
 * Bulge forming
 * Explosive forming
 * For large parts, explosive hydroforming can generate the forming pressure by simply exploding a charge above the part (complete with evacuated mold) which is immersed in a pool of water. The tooling can be much cheaper than what would be required for any press-type process. The hydroforming-into-a-mold process also works using only a shock wave in air as the pressuring medium. Particularly when the explosives are close to the workpiece, inertia effects make the result more complicated than forming by hydrostatic pressure alone.
 * Rubber pad forming

Tube hydroforming
In tube hydroforming there are two major practices: high pressure and low pressure. With the high pressure process the tube is fully enclosed in a die prior to pressurization of the tube. In low pressure the tube is slightly pressurized to a fixed volume during the closing of the die (this used to be called the Variform process). Historically, the process was patented in the '50s, but it was industrially spread in the 1970s for the production of large T-shaped joints for the oil and gas industry. Today it is mostly used in the automotive sector, where many industrial applications can be found. With the rise of the electric bicycle it is now a method of choice for e-bicycle manufacturers. Especially down tubes and top tubes are favorably made with hydroforming in order to fit the battery for the electric bicycle. Newest applications in the bicycle industry are now hydroformed handlebars to improve aero dynamics and ergonomics. In tube hydroforming pressure is applied to the inside of a tube that is held by dies with the desired cross sections and forms. When the dies are closed, the tube ends are sealed by axial punches and the tube is filled with hydraulic fluid. The internal pressure can go up to a few thousand bars and it causes the tube to calibrate against the dies. The fluid is injected into the tube through one of the two axial punches. Axial punches are movable and their action is required to provide axial compression and to feed material towards the center of the bulging tube. Transverse counterpunches may also be incorporated in the forming die in order to form protrusions with small diameter/length ratio. Transverse counter punches may also be used to punch holes in the work piece at the end of the forming process.

Designing the process has in the past been a challenging task, since initial analytical modeling is possible only for limited cases. Advances in FEA and FEM in recent years has enabled hydroform processes to be more widely engineered for varieties of parts and materials. Often FEM simulations must be performed in order to find a feasible process solution and to define the correct loading curves: pressure vs. time and axial feed vs. time. In the case of more complex tube hydroformed parts the tube must be pre-bent prior to loading into the hydroforming die. Bending is done sequentially along the length of the tube, with the tube being bent around bending discs (or dies) as the tube length is fed in. Bending can be done with or without mandrels. This additional complexity of process further increases the reliance on FEM for designing and evaluating manufacturing processes. The feasibility of a hydroforming process must take into consideration the initial tube material properties and its potential for variation, along with the bending process, hydraulic pressure throughout the forming process, in inclusion of axial feed or not, in order to predict metal formability.

Typical tools
Tools and punches can be interchanged for different part requirements. One advantage of hydroforming is the savings on tools. For sheet metal only a draw ring and punch (metalworking) or male die is required. Depending on the part being formed, the punch can be made from epoxy, rather than metal. The bladder of the hydroform itself acts as the female die eliminating the need to fabricate it. This allows for changes in material thickness to be made with usually no necessary changes to the tool. However, dies must be highly polished and in tube hydroforming a two-piece die is required to allow opening and closing.

Geometry produced
Another advantage of hydroforming is that complex shapes can be made in one step. In sheet hydroforming with the bladder acting as the male die almost limitless geometries can be produced. However, the process is limited by the very high closing force required in order to seal the dies, especially for large panels and thick hard materials. Small concave corner radii are difficult to be completely calibrated, i.e. filled, because too large a pressure would be required. in fact, the die closing force can be very high, both in tube and sheet hydroforming and may easily overcome the maximum tonnage of the forming press. In order to keep the die closing force under prescribed limits, the maximum internal fluid pressure must be limited. This reduces the calibration abilities of the process, i.e. it reduces the possibility of forming parts with small concave radii. Limits of the sheet hydroforming process are due to risks of excessive thinning, fracture, wrinkling and are strictly related to the material formability and to a proper selection of process parameters (e.g. hydraulic pressure vs. time curve). Tube hydroforming can produce many geometric options as well, reducing the need for tube welding operations. Similar limitations and risks can be listed as in sheet hydroforming; however, the maximum closing force is seldom a limiting factor in tube hydroforming.

Tolerances and surface finish
Hydroforming is capable of producing parts within tight tolerances including aircraft tolerances where a common tolerance for sheet metal parts is within 0.76 mm (1/30th of an inch). Metal hydroforming also allows for a smoother finish as draw marks produced by the traditional method of pressing a male and female die together are eliminated.

While springback has long been a topic of discussion for sheet metal forming operations it has been far less of a topic of research for tube hydroforming. This may in part be a result of the relatively low levels of springback naturally occurring when deforming the tubes into their closed section geometries. Tube Hydroformed sections by the nature of their closed sections are very rigid and do not display high degrees of elastic deformation under load. For this reason it is likely that negative residual stress induced during tube hydroforming might be insufficient to deform the part elastically after the completion of forming. However, as more and more tubular parts are being manufactured using high strength steel and advanced high strength steel parts, springback must be accounted for in the design and manufacture of closed section tube hydroformed parts.

Examples
Notable examples include:

Sheet Hydro Forming

 * Satellite antennas up to 6 meters in diameter, such as those used in the Allen Telescope Array.
 * Lighting fixture housing and reflector

Tube Hydro Forming

 * Many motor vehicles have components manufactured using hydroformed tubing, with the first mass-produced automotive component being the instrument panel support beam for the 1990 Chrysler Minivan.
 * The technique is widely used in the manufacture of engine cradles. The first mass-produced one was for the Ford Contour and Mystique in 1994. Others from a long list include the Pontiac Aztek, the Honda Accord and the perimeter frame around the Harley Davidson V-Rod motorcycle's engine.
 * Other significant automotive applications for hydroforming include suspension components, and radiator supports.
 * Various vehicle frame components, the earliest mass-produced one being the 1997 Chevrolet Corvette. A selection from many examples are the current versions of the three major United States pickup trucks—the Ford F-150, Chevrolet Silverado, and Ram—which all have hydroformed frame rails, 2006 Pontiac Solstice and the steel frame inside the John Deere HPX Gator Utility Vehicle.
 * The process has recently become popular for the manufacture of aluminium wheelchair frames and wheelchair hand rims, making wheelchair more rigid and lightweight and hand rims more ergonomic.
 * The process has become popular for the manufacture of aluminium bicycle frames. The earliest commercially manufactured one being that of the Giant Manufacturing Revive bicycle first marketed in 2003.
 * The brass tube of Yamaha saxophones.

title: Hydroforming


text: Category:Latvian people by occupation

title: Category:Latvian people by occupation


text:
Talk:Raiden (Metal Gear)

page is being vandalized over and over again.
To anyone who cares: Plz., revert the page to it's previous version. It has been vandalized over and over, through the past days. I could do it myself, but I don't have enough time. --Zephir 00:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

sword in metal gear solid 4 guns of the patriots
In the trailer for guns of the patriots it shows Raiden back looking like a cyborg ninja but what I find awkward is that he is not using the high frequency blade, in fact he is using two different swords and a knife. The sword we see him use is a long rough steel blade with a grip. I would like to know what happen to Raiden's HF blade. --(ryo)

Yeah, that struck me odd too. I mean, the H.F. Blade is the Sword of Swords, soo naturally we'd assume he'd be using it... unless one of those swords IS the H.F. Blade and it went under a redesign or simply looks different because of the major graphical differences between MGS2 and MGS4

 * I agree with the second theory. It could merely be the same high-frequency blade but with a different appearance due to Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty and Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots being released SIX years apart. (Myscrnnm 04:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC))

 * I don't see why they'd need to be the same H.F. Blade. It's not like there's only one, they are probably manufactured by ArmsTech or Tokugawa Heavy Industries or one of the other fictional MG companies. Gray Fox used on as well, after all. WtW-Suzaku 21:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Gray Fox's sword is to believed to be a diffrent sword, I'll find this sword later. But I am sure it is not the High Frequency Blade (Otaconx)

 * Gray Fox's sword is also a high-frequency blade, but it's an older model, with a cable that connects to his exoskeleton, presumably for a power source.(Myscrnnm 20:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC))

Far-fetched
Raiden is rumored to be Link from Legend of Zelda, as they both are similar to each other. Link never talks, and Raiden usually misinterperates what Colonel Campbell says sometimes(ie:Colonel says nodes, Raiden misunderstands it as nerds) meaning they both have little knowledge of English., and both are highly adept at sword use. C'mon, who is supposed to beleive this tripe. Metal gear ninty 21:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Raiden is good at english, Raiden didn't misinterperate the GW saying, he just misheard it, If he didn't know much english then he wouldn't know what Nerd would even mean, so he just misheard it, even though him and link both are good with swords, there is one big diffrence between them, and that is Link has a shield and raiden is just a sword user Otaconx

References Jumbled
I've included some references, but this seems to have jumbled things up, I'm new here so I don't know how to correct this, so could someone fix it please? Metal gear ninty 11:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Raiden's Role in The S3 Plan and Negative Fan Reaction
This whole paragraph seems rather subjective. Who is to decide what Raiden's role in the game is and how it corresponds to the general populace? If this is the words of Kojima or some other authority that should be explained. --user:Sentius

 * Agreed, I've been a bit iffy about it since it was added; I was hoping it would get trimmed up, but it appears that isn't going to happen. I'll get rid of it later today if it's still there and hasn't been updated. --Asriel86 17:23, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

Why in blue fuck does Raiden have high heels on ??

Trivia
Anyone else got any trivia to do with raiden?

Good job on adding the 'Jacks' information Jonny, I knew there was something else to do with his name. --user:Mysticflame

Solid Snake is actually Raiden's uncle by law because of his family status with Solidus Snake. -Cid and Ryo (Mostly Cid)

Um...we'll... originally the character of Raiden was actually going to be a cyborg, and would have this triangle-like design on his stomach, which was revealed durring the Arsenal Chapter when Raiden is removed of his sneaking suit. I'm glad Hideo decided to make him human >.>

Solidus' suit
Solidus Snake from MGS2 wore a combat suit that seemed to expand his muscles and such, giving him extra strength. Raiden's suit seems to share the technology of the suit as seen from the trailer. When he holds onto the turrets on one of the Metal Gear GEKKOUs, his suit expands. And at the end, as he sheathes his sword, you see steam emanate from the suit as it recedes. So yeah, someone should note the similarity.

Metal Gear Intergal (GBC)
Is it of any note that it is often speculated that the GBC Metal Gear game may have you playing as Raiden, unbenknownst to players. He is reffered to as 'Jack' a few times, and the popular internet ruling is that this was the 'vr' mission Raiden did prior to Big Shell.

Think it's worth it?03:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)~

I think you mean 'Metal Gear Ghost Babel', and yes, I've seen screens of that bit. I'm trying to get to the 'Jack' scene myself - I'll make sure to put a screenshot here when I find it. --87.114.18.235 19:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed some unsourced text
Again, I like this section, but it needs a reliable source. This Geocities site is not a reliable source.

"In contrast to the American reception, Raiden was quite popular in Japan, probably due to his deeper voice given by Kenyu Horiuchi in the original Japanese version (in contrast to Quinton Flynn's more effeminate voice acting in the English version) and a generally more mature portrayal in Kojima's original script. An androgynous appearance is also generally more acceptable in Japanese pop culture. Despite his relative popularity in Japan, Raiden's negative reaction among English-speaking gamers prompted Kojima Productions to alter his character design for Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots."

Please don't replace it until you have added a proper source. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Why isn't geocities a reliable source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Bread (talk • contribs)

Because we have no way of knowing that anything posted there is true. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay then

(The Bread 04:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC))

Image:MGS4 Raiden render.jpg
Can we please not use this image for the infobox? His effeminate appearance is a major part of this article's focus, and as such we should not use an image that completely conceals same. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree that the image should show him with a mask on, since Raiden typically shows his face. 12.219.74.52 15:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I prefer to use the latest incarnation of the character over the oldest, but whatever suit your tastes. At least don't discard the image I've uploaded. I put it there to give a full body shot of Raiden's new looks. Jonny2x4 05:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

"Some believe the new image hollow"
I would like to know who these people are. The 'new way to perceive Raiden' is very in line with the notions of the worldwide guerrila-style warfare that Liquid Snake (through Ocelot) apparently begins to unleash, "drop by drop," upon the world. --75.2.21.90 11:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Popularity and voice in Japan
First, about Raiden's voice. I don't see it noted anywhere that Raiden's Japanese voice actor has a much deeper voice than Quinton Flynn. While we don't know for sure what the exact reason for the different voice is, we do know that Kojima did cast Horiuchi himself, and we know he didn't cast Flynn, which to me indicates that he had intended for Raiden to have a deep voice (again, that's my opinion, but it is definitely true that Kojima did handle the Japanese voice casting, while INTAC handles the English voice casting). Anyway, why isn't any of this (at least the fact that the Japanese Raiden has a much deeper voice) mentioned in the article (under "Character development", perhaps)?

I do see that this was mentioned in a deleted paragraph, but I think the fact that he has a deeper voice in the Japanese version should definitely be put under "Character development".

And regarding his popularity in Japan. I changed "Raiden was quite popular in Japan" to "Raiden was more well-received in Japan". You can see that in the 1UP.com interview Kojima merely says "there are actually many people in Japan who like Raiden", while he also says "But the fans ended up not liking him" (note that he says "the fans", and not "the Western fans"). Also note that on the Japanese Wikipedia, Raiden doesn't have his own article, while Solid Snake, Liquid, and Solidus, as well as Big Boss, Ocelot, Otacon, and Campbell all have their own articles. Quite popular? Hardly.

-71.80.31.42 08:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Ghost Babel connections
Raiden was first mentioned by his given name in the Game Boy Color version of Metal Gear Solid (titled Metal Gear: Ghost Babel in Japan). After finishing the game once, the player has the option of playing through VR simulated version of the game's thirteen stages, but with new goals and conditions added. If the player completes all these missions, a message from the supervisor, No. 4, will appear, addressing the player as Jack. This predates the release of Sons of Liberty by a year.

Do we have any cites that state that this is an intentional connection? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Tanker incident in VR?
If Raiden went through the Tanker incident in VR, why would he believe that Snake destroyed the tanker rather than Ocelot? For that matter, why would the Patriots let him learn this at all? --Pika132
 * One presumes that he went through an edited version. It isn't made clear. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with A Man in Black. If you remember, in the codec convo between Raiden and Snake after Ocelot has killed the president and Raiden has exited the room where the president was held, Raiden says "I've gone through the tanker in VR before" to which Snake replies "Yeah? Well I doubt it accurately simulates the events of that mission." This may indicate that the mission Raiden went through was changed in some way or another when compared to the true tanker event.

I believe it was a VR mission of Shadow Moses they where talking about in teh game. GamerSam 13:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Uncle? Nah
"Raiden's uncle is Solid Snake by law due to his relationship with Solidus Snake."

Solidus didn't officially adopt Raiden; he found him and took him under his care, training him to be one of his soldiers. So, Snake is not Raiden's uncle.

Although not by law, Solidus does think of Raiden as his son, and the only father Raiden knows of is Solidus. So, Snake is Raiden's uncle as much as Liquid is Solid's "brother".

Ya the above poster did clearly say, "law" so Indeed Snake is Raiden's Uncle and Naked snake is Raiden's grandpa lol Otaconx

I wish Snake was my uncle imagine how fun family reunions would be minus teh fact snake killed off half of them and Ocelot would have to be there because Liquid. GamerSam 13:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Though we don't know the legal identities of Solid and Liquid Snake and Raiden, it is likely that their legal identities were separate, which measn that Solid, Liquid and Solidus are not legally brothers. As previously stated, there is no indication that Solidus legally adopted Raiden, therefore he is not legally his father and it is impossible for Solid Snake to be Raiden's uncle.

Citation.
Can we get a source on this claim " It has been recently confirmed by Lead Character Designer: Yoji Shinkawa, that Raiden is indeed a Cyborg like Gray Fox, and the only things still human about him are apparently his head and spine. He commented that Raiden is "falling apart"" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.112.147.54 (talk) 00:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

 * It was in the official Kojima Report podcast thing with Yoji Shinkawa as a guest, relatively recently. You could probably find it with a quick search. WtW-Suzaku 21:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

What really happened to Raiden?
Recently i read to an article about raiden's uniform. It says that raiden cant live without the suit... My question is: What really happened to raiden? I looked everywhere to find an answer but unfortunately i found.. nothing.So?! Why he cant live without the suit? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.78.230.234 (talk) 15:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

 * We don't know yet. It will be revealed in Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, which comes out later this year. (Myscrnnm 04:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC))

we do know from a interview that Raiden was apparently 'falling apart' and pretty much the only part of him that is still of his origional body is his head and spinal cord. so yah.. he definitely needs that cybernetic suit to live.--CloudHiro 08:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Raiden is a clone of Raikov, so like Snake he too is falling apart, but in a much more literal sense. That's why he needs the suit to live.

^No, Raiden is NOT a clone of Raikov. There is no relation between the two characters, Raikov was merely created as an in-joke between the fans and creators of the game. Also, we know Raiden has biological parents so he can't possibly be a clone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.180.32 (talk) 14:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

On an additional note, prior to "Big Shell" Raiden's/Jack's blood is removed and placed in cold storage and replaced with some sort of synthetic material. This information was revealed via codec transmission at the beginning of the "Big Shell" infiltration. The plan was to replace the blood via transfusion at the conclusion of the mission. However, the events that took place at the end of the mission complicated matters and it is assumed he never received the transfusion. This could explain why Raiden is "falling apart." Perhaps the synthetic was not designed to be used for an extended period of time. The video can be found on "Youtube."-Jack, 6 November 2007

Who deleted the Metal Gear Solid 3 part in apperences
I made a paragraph about the story that Raiden had in Metal gear solid 3 subsistence secret theatre! that took 15=20 minutes of my life to make.

Oxycite Refernace
I would edit this out completely. The artificial white blood is not likely a specific referance to Oxycite, and is much more likely a direct referance to Policenauts, where several characters have artificial white blood, usually referred to as "Milk Blood". This is one of several referances to Policenauts in the MG series, another of which being Tokugawa Heavy Industries itself, which is plastered all over Raiden's new exoskeleton. WtW-Suzaku 06:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Either one is just speculation without a solid source †he Bread3000 07:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Better to just remove the Oxycite thing altogether, then. WtW-Suzaku 19:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Jack and Frank's simlarities
If you take a look at the individual storylines of Frank Jaeger and Jack, you'll discover they are EXTREMELY similar.

Both of them were child soldiers, and were aparently so good that they both got nicknames for their deadly nature, Jack the Ripper and The Frank Hunter. Also, both were aparently in perfect soldier experiments, Frank's perfect soldier experiment explained in Portable Ops, and the side objective of the patriots in the Big Shell incident as Jack's. Both found some sort of salvation from these projects due to the current Snake (Naked and Solid). And the most oveous one, both becomeing a Cyborg Ninja.

I dont think this is a quincidence. Hideo Kojima must have purposely made these two individuals to be this similar for some reason. The question is, what is this reason? Perhaps it will be revealed in Guns of the Patriots.--CloudHiro 08:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Its obvious that Raiden is a replacement considering their pasts and the occurrences of events Kojima has in teh series to represent the cycle of Memes and times. Also the fact that the Patriots use Big Boss and Snakes experiences to base there scenarios for the S3. GamerSam 13:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Raiden/Jack is a clone of Null/Grey Fox/Frank Jaeger. It would also explain why hes "falling apart". Snake is dying from a genetic abnormalty from the cloning process and so maybe Raiden is too but he chose to use a cyborg suit to prolong his life.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.36.33 (talk) 17:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Titanic thing
"Raiden's real name, Jack, was taken from the name of Leonardo DiCaprio's character in the movie Titanic. Concurrently, his love interest in the game is named (Rosemary) after Kate Winslet's character in the film.[3] His role and status were also likened by the designers to those of the jack in a deck of playing cards, with Fortune representing the Queen, Solidus Snake the King, and SEAL Team 10 the expendable "spot" cards."... ok what? Raiden wasn't even take from that. Some Survey thing,that why Raiden was made a character--Hitamaru 23:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that was how they decided to create a younger, more handsome character which turns out to be Raiden. The above is mentioning the origin of his name (Jack) not the character. In th real world, Hideo named him after Jack Dawson from Titanic. In the game world, Raiden is (most likely) named after Big Boss - most likely because of Solidus' obsession with Big Boss —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.7.182.253 (talk) 03:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ... Huh,wut? 0.o i don't think kojima named him after a dude in titanic. That would say they name the jack dude in Pirates of Carribean after Titanic. It's jus fan fiction and some nutty titanic fan. even tho imo the movie was horrible.--Hitamaru 22:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Just because you hate the movie doesn't mean it's not true - and your Jack Sparrow argument wasn't the same thing. You see, Raiden's girlfriend is named Rose - Jack and Rose, known lovers from the Titanic movie. Hideo Kojima is known for his love of movies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.253.141 (talk) 12:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * MGS1 has Hal and Dave (2001: A Space Odyssey), and MGS2 has Jack and Rose (Titanic). It's definitely intentional. Philip Reuben (talk) 12:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Picture of New raiden
Can some get a pic of him and move the current raiden pic to the big shell chapter.--Hitamaru 22:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why? The MGS2 Raiden is the original and came long before the MGS4 incarnation who is basically just Cyborg Ninja 3.0. Jonny2x4 (talk) 05:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Does Raiden know about the entire plan the whole time?
Does Raiden know about Ocelot/Big Boss's plan in MGS4? Does he know it was all fake so Snake would do what he did and stop the Patriots from stopping them? If so, it should be mentioned in the plot points. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muisee (talk • contribs) 02:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Les Enfants Terribles
I think that something about "Les Enfants Terribles" should really be added. It has to do with everything about Raiden's past and his character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.34.90 (talk) 02:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

No it doesn't.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.109.1.129 (talk) 03:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Snatcher?
"He may actually be the first official Snatcher in the Metal Gear universe." Am I just not getting the reference here or is this pure graffiti? When I searched for Snatcher all I found was some silly old game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.26.214 (talk) 18:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but the phrase "silly old game" tickled me! ;) Snatcher was a game that Hideo Kojima developed after the original Metal Gear. It was a graphic adventure influenced by cyberpunk media (meaning primarily movies) like Blade Runner and Terminator, centered around cybernetic organisms (part robot, part organic, you know) killing and replacing humans, and was pretty good for the time. The Game included References to Metal Gear, most notable a small robot called Metal Gear Mk. II - back in 1988. After that Kojima went on to do Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake and went on to include references to Snatcher. If you call Kesler/ Kasler in the final match with Big Boss, he'll tell you, that Big Boss is rumored to have been revived by the snatcher program, where cybernatic parts replace vital organs. This was a complete in-joke, of course, but the guy making the MGS4 Database took this a bit too serious and incorporated in it, meaning that this is now unfortunately canon.87.174.211.241 (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

African American category
I`m sorry but where does it says he is of African descent? Zidane tribal (talk) 06:49, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

 * Only because he fought in the Liberian civil war, that`s not proof he is of African descent. Zidane tribal (talk) 06:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

another correlation to Raiden?
could his name have anything to do with the WW2 IJN Fighter aircraft the Mitsubishi J2M Raiden(Thunderbolt).....this aircraft was(and its probly just a coencidence) ...codenamed "Jack" by the allies in much the same way as the A6M Zero "Zeke" and G4M "Betty"

i just figure 2 Raiden/Jacks is either wierd or genius for hideo kojima..you decide lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_J2M

Tony Spike — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony Spike (talk • contribs) 18:03, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

It's strongly implied in MGS2 that this is the source of Raiden's codename.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.253.39.7 (talk) 21:22, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Already added with a source.Tintor2 (talk) 00:22, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes; in MGR:R, during a Codec conversation, I believe with either Kevin or Courtney, he confirms this as the origin of the name "Raiden". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.60.89 (talk) 09:14, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Raiden's Sacrifice in MGS4
Hi folks, I just wanted to ask, for the sake of having a good article, what's the deal with Raiden's sacrifice in MGS4? I haven't involved myself in the MGS world for a while, but I remember him dying (more or less), and I also remember, and have read here, that he needs that suit to live. And yet, doesn't MGS4 have a happy ending where he has his arm back and no suit and what not? How is this explained in the lore? In advance, I apologize if I added this wrong, but I'm no good with wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.133.164 (talk) 21:33, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

 * His "human suit" was just a disguise. He was this close to dying in MGS4 but made it out alive. The problem is that we cannot list everything he does per WP:PLOT. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 00:05, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

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Removed text
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From Creation and appearance
(removed because: not about creation and appearance so off-topic for this section):

Composer Jamie Christopherson referred to a theme simply titled "Raiden" that is played in multiple parts of the story, starting from its menu screen. The theme is used as part of other theme songs like "It Has to Be This Way", "Collective Consciousness" and "The War Still Rages Within" which reference different parts of Raiden's characterization "It Has to Be This Way" is used as a theme that relates both Raiden and Steven Armstrong during the game's finale while "The War Still Rages Within" is considered as the former's "anthem" based on the character's life following the ending.

From Reception --> Critical reaction
(removed because it's not primarily about the subject character):

Capcom expressed concerns when adding a new protagonist to the series Devil May Cry in the 2008 installment Devil May Cry 4. Fearing negative feedback as in Sons of Liberty, producer Hiroyuki Kobayashi said Capcom aimed to make newcomer Nero fun to play like returning Dante and intended to make him stronger at some point.

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Gamechamp3000: Jack's First Appearance
I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw her video and immediately went to correct this article. Blackpeel (talk) 18:36, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

 * What? Still the first appearance is debatable considering he is not seen or specifically mentioned. There isn't really that much of a context to this section or even a reference to support it. Maybe if a developer confirmed it.Tintor2 (talk) 21:25, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * As is stated here (Metal Gear Solid (2000 video game) (this version), under "Game modes"), Ghost Babel contains VR missions where you play as Solid Snake.
 * Link to a video of the final special (VR) mission of Ghost Babel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pMSsi3_5ag
 * The last 30 seconds reveal that the player character is named Jack, having completed said VR training.
 * I'm under the impression this is Raiden's exact backstory (not sure, not a MGS fan), so I think it's safe to assume this is him. Swagtomomo (talk) 07:41, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ghost Babel is not canon, it contradicts the events of Metal Gear Solid and in fact they did not even happen in Ghost Babel, as Snake is pulled out of his retirement in Alaska and meets Mei Ling for the first time as is the case in Metal Gear Solid. Furthermore, Raiden trained on a recreation of the Shadow Moses incident, the events of Metal Gear Solid. The video in question even admits this is an incredibly shaky theory, and ties it into the themes of Metal Gear Solid 2, deciding to believe these two Jacks are the same person. The only way that Jack is Raiden is if he's an alternate timeline version of him. Unless there's a way to officially confirm this, the page shouldn't be changed to reflect the (self-admitted)heavily flawed theory of a random youtuber. 2603:6010:AC21:93C4:30DD:F2D:AF28:E00C (talk) 20:10, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's far more canon than the game listed as his most recent appearance. If being a character in Bomberman is notable enough to be his official latest appearance, then his codename being directly stated in Ghost Babel is noteable enough to be listed as his first appearance. Blackpeel (talk) 21:12, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * "Jack", which is Raiden's real name, is what's said, not his codename. "Jack" is also the real name Naked Snake/Big Boss, and a common name to boot. Further, the character never appears on screen. I'm not sure about Bomberman being listed as his last appearance either, but at least you can confirm who it's meant to be based on by his name and appearance alone. Far more concrete then "This is probably meant to allude to him." 2603:6010:AC21:93C4:5061:9F2F:FD25:7601 (talk) 02:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's worthy of at least a mention somehwere in the article though, as a possible appearance. If this was indeed intended to be a reference to Raiden (as the game being non-canon doesn't necesssarily rule that out) the implications for the standard narrative of "Raiden's appearance was hidden before MGS2 released" are pretty noteworthy. Perhaps this would fit on MGGB's page more than Raiden's though? 2601:408:C404:9D5F:9953:B3D4:21F2:6CA0 (talk) 21:51, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Certainly. I personally think it was meant as a retroactive nod, knowing the things Hideo Kojima likes to do it would make sense. But there's no way to know for sure, so it's only speculation and if anything is added to either page that much should be stated. 2603:6010:AC21:93C4:CD4:3A16:2D93:2506 (talk) 21:37, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Given Ghost Babel and MGS2 would've been in development at the same time, it's more than likely it was at least an intentional nod. Until we get confirmation though, the best we can do is a vague "hey, maybe he was in it?" IcarusAvery (talk) 19:12, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * And yet it appears from the edit history that no, we can't even do that. Amazing to think this site's credibility can actually get any worse, but somehow it keeps managing it! 2600:1700:5DF:F600:C7B:3A9D:1565:4357 (talk) 01:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Raiden in Ghost Babel
this is commonly discussed, but many people say this isn't Raiden (despite the character playing as snake having the same name). I am aware of the common name, but c'mon, they were in development around the same time and its stated that Raiden went through snakes missions in VR, as well as the nameless character, who speaks to you all through out Ghost Babel, says something along the lines of "you will be in action very soon" (I cant remember exactly what he says, but its similar to this).Theres too many things adding up to just be a coincidence, right? 2A02:C7C:7A80:7500:F844:5A65:A37F:A155 (talk) 18:49, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

 * As you said, Jack is a common name. And in the series, it refers to at least two characters: Big Boss and Raiden. The problem is for Wikipedia standards, you need a verifiable source (WP:V) that definitively says "Raiden is THAT Jack" And Wikipedia doesn't allow original research per WP:NOR either Something129 (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I saw your undo of my edit, I fixed the sources to be in line with standards. I think it's important to include this information, as it is somewhat relevant, and not doing so will lead to further vandalism. Ludensg (talk) 20:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This has already been addressed in the article. There's no need to change the official first appearance based on speculation. So long as this is up to dispute and interpretation, it can't be added as official information. Remember that a Wikipedia article has neutrality as its top priority. If one day Kojima, or another reputed source comments on this, then this can be re-considered. Ludensg (talk) 19:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

 * I say that since such franchise is know for tricking the audience, it would be better if we had confirmation Kojima or other staff members. Venom Snake was assumed to be the original Big Boss in all of the trailers until the Phantom Pain added a scene that revealed he had nothing to do with the other Snakes.Tintor2 (talk) 21:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree, there's also the fact that all of this speculation and debate might have been intended as part of a meta-game mechanic, which I think is why it was worthwhile to address it in the article. But yeah, setting this as official information without official confirmation seems a bit silly to me. Ludensg (talk) 05:04, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry
My edits may be wrong sorry about that JustSomeNerdig (talk) 22:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

 * I'm removing your edits because of WP:NOR -- as mentioned above, Wikipedia requires verifiable sources, and a fan theory alone doesn't support that fact. Leafy46 (talk) 23:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * You also removed my edit too. I didn't add anything that isn't up to par with verifications. The sources don't state specifically that the fan theory is true, just that it exists. The things sourced there are things straight from the games, mainly screenshots and the script, so I think it should be back on the article. Ludensg (talk) 04:33, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with Leafy46. Question of my own: What about this particular fan theory merits inclusion as opposed to others surrounding Raiden or even other characters? As for the source you used, what makes it reliable and appropriate to use here? Something129 (talk) 05:48, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Regarding why I regard this specific theory to be worthy of inclusion, besides the act of theorizing it itself being plausibly intended by the developers (given Kojima's track record, and the context in which both Ghost Babel and MGS2 were released), Raiden's subversive origin as a character is his most defining feature in the context of the series as a whole. So, this being a theory that's seemingly evident, but at the same time unprovable and in the air, is something worthy of note.
 * Raiden's entire reception as a character was dictated by Kojima's subversive act of including him without any warning. I argue that the fact that this is a lead that could potentially change the entire origin of the character itself, makes it worthy of inclusion. I believe that the fact that it's a theory, and that it still has significant traction more than two decades later, makes it notable enough to be included.
 * Regarding the sources, I updated them, now they are more direct, and reliable. You can see my previous comments on that. Ludensg (talk) 19:24, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, and also because the theory would represent a previously undocumented appearance (which would be the first one, making it all the more important) of Raiden as a character. It's not a theory regarding any particular moment or relationship the character has, rather, it's a theory of the actual presence of the character with substantial foundations. Ludensg (talk) 19:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Right, as Something129 said above. The two sources you included were:
 * 1. "The Snake Soup", which appears to be a fansite akin to a blog (thus failing WP:BLOGS for reliability)
 * 2. The script of Metal Gear Solid 2, which doesn't back up the claim that it's *this* Jack which is found in Metal Gear: Ghost Babel. In other words, this is *you* making the connection, failing WP:NOR which "includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources."
 * As neither of these are reliable, the fact is not up to par with verification standards. I'd take a look at WP:GAMESOURCES to see what is considered reliable, and feel free to re-add the information if you can find some research directly from one of those sources! Leafy46 (talk) 17:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, if you open up the website, you'd see that what I'm referencing are the actual games themselves, as in The Snake Soup there are some screenshots of the moment where a reference to a character named Jack happens, plus this website is a source that shows that there is, in fact, a trend of people theorizing that there is a connection. And in the script, it shows that Raiden's backstory, in fact, deals with simulating Snake's missions on VR. No original conclusions, or research, have been made in my edit.
 * Given the introduction of Raiden as an informational (or dis-informational) stunt in the original MGS2, I think it is worthwhile mentioning that the theory exists. I never claimed that it is true. And by the very edit history (vandalism) of this article, and the sources I used, I think it is undeniable that a. it exists, and b. it is relevant for the content of this page.
 * I will add it again once I find a better source for the Ghost Babel screenshots, and perhaps more "convincing" documentation of the trends.
 * In summary, this wasn't *me* making the connection. This was me showcasing that there is a trend of people making the connection. In that sense, a fan site would be a good source, as what is being talked about isn't factual information about the games per se, rather, the fans' reception of the games. Even if it were a blog, it is a primary source documenting its own reaction. Ludensg (talk) 17:25, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ABOUTSELF Ludensg (talk) 17:26, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Once again, I'm inclined to believe your additions as per is original research. You are taking various lines from a video game and drawing a conclusion not explicitly mentioned in the source, which goes against WP:SYNTH. I understand you believe that including a blog is fair game, but it is once again not because of WP:BLOGS: if its only source is a blog, the information is not of enough notability to hold its own. Ditto to the IGN link: while IGN on its own is reliable, the source you included is a user-submitted transcription of the game's script, failing WP:GAMESOURCES. The last source, Game Informer, doesn't even include the quote you've attributed to it, so I'm frankly not sure why it's there. Please, please, please check your sources. If you're quoting the game itself without a reliable  source backing up that your theory is indeed widely believed, then it can't be proven that there is a "trend of people" who really believe it.Leafy46 (talk) 20:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The source from Game Informer backs up the fact that it is a connection made by many, not by me. I am not the one synthesizing this information, I am just including references to the original games in order for a reader to understand where the connection is being made, plus sources showcasing the result of a non-negligible amount of people making this connection. If you need even another source I'll find it. Ludensg (talk) 21:20, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm also having trouble seeing the connection made by the Game Informer article. I'll assume the last section is what you're getting at and that discusses "Jack" in context of Metal Gear Solid Mobile and not Ghost Babel. Otherwise, the article does not discuss anything relating to fan theories. Perhaps you can provide a quote of a section saying so in this thread
 * As for Snake Soup, their about page specifically states that Wikipedia doesn't consider them reliable. (I'm aware that gaming journalism outlets do cite them, but that's for their articles, which become secondary sources that are appropriate for Wikipedia). Something129 (talk) 22:06, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * As for the Game Informer article, this is what I quoted: " Despite being an apocryphal Metal Gear entry, Ghost Babel feels far more faithful to the guiding vision of the series than any other spinoff title... or even the technically canonical Portable Ops, for that matter. And while the plot can't possibly integrate into the Metal Gear saga's storyline due to all its contradictions and conflicts, it nevertheless offers a secret hook to canonicity: At the end of the optional VR bonus missions, a cryptic voice refers to the player as "Jack" — nonsense at the time, but following Metal Gear Solid 2 (which arrived the following year), it would seem to suggest that Ghost Babel ultimately amounted to virtual reality training for MGS2 protagonist Raiden. That game's script makes it clear that Raiden "relived" Snake's previous adventures through VR, and even makes a direct reference to events of Ghost Babel amidst references to a number of other VR sims. ".
 * It talks about the Babel-Raiden connection specifically, I don't know what part you read though, this has nothing to do with MGS Mobile. It even states the theory as a fact, which isn't completely unreasonable, but is still very simplistic.
 * As for Snake Soup, again, I know it is an unreliable source. But I used it in accordance with Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves. It is documenting itself, not as a verification of the theory being true, just as verification of the theory being discussed by the community as a whole for an extended period of time. Ludensg (talk) 04:10, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * That quote does not appear in the Game Informer article you cited in your previous edit. Is that quote possibly from another source and you cited the wrong source? Something129 (talk) 05:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I found your quote in a VG247 article, it appears as if you've cited the incorrect source. Looking at it, it's passed my check for a reliable source! It appears on WP:GAMESOURCES (both it and USgamer), and the author appears to be reliable (being the former editor-in-chief at USgamer). I think it's a solid source for proving a connection, so congratulations!
 * However, I personally would still argue this fact wouldn't qualify due to WP:UNDUE. Considering the amount of research, the fact there's only one reliable source which mentions this theory, and in a single, tangential paragraph at that, makes me believe this is a case of WP:FRINGE. According to that guideline, "For a fringe view to be discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, independent reliable sources must discuss the relationship of the two as a serious and substantial matter." -- one paragraph is hardly substantial, even if it suggests a relationship exists, and note that "sources" is plural here. (On a side note, I believe you're misinterpreting WP:ABOUTSELF: you would need to be writing an article about The Snake Soup for your article to qualify under that.)
 * In the end though, this is outside of my realm. All I can say is that yes, your source would be fine if you choose to include it in the article. I would just be very careful with how you word it if you choose to do so, especially given that the source is so authoritative (e.g. you can't say "Some people believe" nor offer an alternate viewpoint because the article doesn't explicitly say there are "other people" involved -- hence why I suggest that it's a fringe theory which doesn't hold up on its own, but I digress for lack of knowledge about that guideline). Leafy46 (talk) 15:07, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I guess somewhere in my clipboard I must have pasted the wrong link when citing the sources, my bad! I'll think of what would be the best, if any, approach to do with this, thanks anyway for engaging with me on it. Ludensg (talk) 16:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Raiden (Metal Gear)


text: Category:Burkinabé politicians

title: Category:Burkinabé politicians


text:
Talk:Charles Taylor (philosopher)

Comments
Taylor is famous for his quickness of mind. He can reach a moronic conclusion faster that the rest of us dullards; qv., John Ralston Saul, and Jacques Derrida. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.135.88 (talk) 10:00, 11 April 2005 (UTC)

Exclusive humanism
This article needs a few changes, I think. I don't have the time to do much, so I've just deleted this sentence: "His principal philosophical standpoint is that of "exclusive humanism"—a humanism without reference to the transcendent, especially as it relates to cultural, social, or political life." Taylor is actually a (Catholic) theist, although there's more to it than that. (See Stephen White's book "Sustaining Affirmation" for a discussion of Taylor's "weak ontology.")

The Hegelian aspects of his work deserve at least some mention; also, the pragmatic use of transcendental arguments. I'm not at all competent to say anything about his political career or his position on Québécois sovereignty, but those are interesting topics too.WadeMcR 06:34, 13 January 2006 (UTC)WadeMcR

 * The reference to Taylor's "exclusive humanism" is back again, apparently. His position needs at least a more nuanced treatment than this.--24.23.68.36 04:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree that mention of his work on Hegel would be appropriate and useful. HenryV19 (talk) 19:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Political stance
Something should be mentioned about his political stance (new philosophical communitarianism), beyond his NDP affiliation, his work with The New Left journal, as well as a reconsideration of considering him as an Analytic Philosopher as it's evident he is more influenced by Philosophical Hermeneutics (Gadamer/Heidegger) - as one can see from his disussion regarding horizons and prejudice - than with any Analytic philosopher. In all honesty, the only thing that strikes me as particularly analytic about Taylor is his clarity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.34.171 (talk) 07:31, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Definitely he can't be considered an analytic philosopher. Certainly, he is cristal clear in his writings, but that is not enough (just as writing in english is not enough). He indulges in random free-associations (Quine's atomism showing political conservatism and viceversa), far-fetched speculation (considering continental-like ideas to have been in wittgenstein's mind though never explicited by him) and different subjects interweaving (as when science, surplus value exploitation and language structures get mixed in a single topic), three landmarks of continental philosophy. He has also criticised harshly (sometimes attacked) virtually everyone and everything (every topic) that is traditionally regarded as pertaining to APh. And, most important, his already mentioned devotion for most prominent continental philosophers, should make that category tag removed. YoungSpinoza 23:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Catholicism
After reading YoungSpinoza's comments, and noting that the mention of "exclusive humanism" remains, I decided that a simple way to clarify the issue would be to mention Taylor's Catholicism in the article. When I read the article, I came across the title of the book "A Catholic Modernity?" and was curious to read what an "exclusive humanist" (the monicker made me assume he was an atheist) had to say on this topic. A little googling later, and I find that Taylor is Catholic, and am left annoyed that a Wikipedia article on a Catholic with a book about Catholicism to his credit doesn't mention his denominational affiliation. So I put it in. The comment above about Taylor's "weak ontology" makes me suspect that Taylor's Catholicism may be the sort of complicated and nuanced thing that would lead some to recoil from having him described as Catholic without further qualification. If you're a wikipedian about to delete the "Roman Catholic" from the article for this reason, I'd appreciate it if you could take an alternate course of action: Instead of deleting the adjective, add a paragraph about the "weak ontology" or whatever it is that you think makes the adjective ambivalent. I lack the knowledge of Taylor to do this, but I'm sure that if someone could write such a paragraph, it would make interesting reading. Thanks. Rinne na dTrosc 21:37, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Looks like somebody deleted the "Catholic" part. Come to think of it, A Catholic Modernity? was missing from the list of Taylor's works for quite a while, until I added it. I wonder if anybody is going to have issues with the note about the Templeton Prize?--WadeMcR 06:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone also removed him from the Roman Catholic philosophers category, despite the fact that there are literally hundreds of sources attesting to Taylor's Catholicism and its central role in his life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tedmosby83 (talk • contribs) 19:37, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

BA and MA from Oxford
This just to note for the interests of those who make this page their responsibility: the page, on my reading, appears to imply that Taylor separately earned a BA and an MA from Oxford as degrees proper. This is not the case. As anyone familiar with the Oxbridge system will be able to confirm, Oxford and Cambridge offer terminal BAs to undergraduates which may then be subsequently upgraded to an MA following a period of X years given Y conditions (stuff like divorce, bankruptcy etc). This is why Taylor's full title is 'Taylor... BA MA...' not 'Taylor... BA BA MA'. I'm not sure what you'd care to do with this information (removing the notes which says he 'earned his MA in such-and-such a year' which is only in the vaguest sense accurate), just thought I'd pass it on. Best, Duncan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.243.176 (talk) 10:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Edited Intro
I removed: "Although, he is also a practicing Roman Catholic, so the term 'philosopher' serves here more as a job title than a true description of Taylor as an open-minded freethinker. On 28th July 2009 Prof. Richard Dawkins famously wrote of Taylor, “Taylor accepted the Templeton Prize, which is pretty much all that needs to be said about him.”[1]"

This is not an objective description, and obviously comments made by Dawkins _today_ cannot be "famous". Even if they were they do not deserve to be in the opening paragraph. It also remains to be seen whether one can be religious and a philosopher - we don't make this critique of, say, Plato. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.34.72 (talk) 15:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC) --81.110.34.72 (talk) 16:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

It's funny actually, I had never heard of Mr.Taylor until I read that comment by Prof.Dawkins in the comments section on his website. So I looked him up on wiki and was stunned to find that someone had already inserted his comments on this page. I am a big admirer of Prof.Dawkins and his work in biology, but quite frankly there are a lot of fanatics on his website who behave like cultists. I also attempted to delete that comment, as it was merely an off-hand remark by Prof.Dawkins in the comments section of a thread on his webpage. Describing that remark as "famous" is preposterous, as is attempting to add it to this biography. CABlankenship (talk) 04:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

bad external link
As elsewhere in WP, the links to the CC Reasonable Accom. report are broken - at least on this date.

Note: Library System of NB has a dearth of CT books aside from SourcSelf and SecAge.

If you have a spare copy of Lang and HA, please consider donating to Fundy or York systems.

G. Robert Shiplett 14:09, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

"Interlocutors"
What does "interlocutors" mean here? Has he discussed philosophy with them? Has he appeared on panels? Have they reviewed his works, with him responding? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 20:10, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Making "Interlocutors" and similar sections useful

 * When I saw that section I had the same question as Richardson mcphillips above. I examined every article on the "interlocutors" named and from the (mere) four that actually mention Charles Taylor I concluded that these are either thinkers whose thought is discussed by Taylor or who have discussed Taylor's thought. I found four additional mentions of these interlocutors within this article itself and following a colon I have linked to the closest (sub)section ("#"-designated) containing each mention via a short description of the connection of that interlocutor to Taylor. It's easier to do than it may sound at first, all you do is click through to each interlocutor's article and use your browser search function to find any mentions of (in this case) Charles Taylor in that article, find its subsection, click on it in the contents box at top and copy the address beyond the last / in your browser address bar. Similarly, you then search (in this case) for each interlocutor's name in this article and create a similar link or links.

 * This started as an experiment because I thought there was very little value in naming persons whose connection to the article's subject was specified nowhere (which also makes such mentions Original Research -- see WP:NOR) and redundant where the connection was already made in the body of the article. Having made the experiment, however, I think the result is quite useful and I hope other editors will agree. I found only eight other WP articles with "Interlocutors" sections:

 * No subject identification other than links to subject's article:
 * ·Clifford_Geertz
 * ·Cora_DuBois
 * ·Donald_Tuzin
 * ·Roy_D'Andrade
 * ·Saba_Mahmood

 * Subject identified by specialty: ·Clyde_Kluckhohn

 * Subject identified by dates, specialty and affilliation: ·Harvard_Department_of_Social_Relations

 * Subject identified within a descriptive paragraph: ·Sodalitium_Christianae_Vitae

 * The reason for this small sample of "Interlocutors" sections is obvious when you look at (for example) other philosophers' articles: It is far more common to see a "See also" section with what we here call interlocutors (i.e. those commented on by or commenting on the subject) but "See also" subsections are also used to link to more general articles (e.g. from Thales to material monism, and Know thyself) more specific (Aristotle to Aristotelian physics) or various oblique connections (Thales to "The Astrologer who Fell into a Well"). Most such "See also" subsections offer no guidance on why you would want to see the linked material either, of course. I assume there is a Wikipedia group devoted to improving philosophy articles and I will try to find it and point them to this post, and it may be of interest to other area groups as well, of course, since most of the "Interlocutors" sections I found were in other fields. Such helpful topic-identified links to article subsections may be hard to maintain in the light of article changes, of course. Perhaps a robot could be made to find (and even repair?) such broken links, or even to locate mentions of subject A in other articles (B, C, D) and list such along with mentions of B, C, D, etc. in A's article, ready to be used in Interlocutors sections. Of course editor's judgments are required to assess the significance of such links and to describe the useful connections in minimal words.

 * Perhaps other editors who like this proposal would mention it to those who might find it useful. I'm not sure if its more trouble than it's worth but I think it may be worth quite a bit to users. —Blanchette (talk) 00:31, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Charles P. B. Taylor
I looked up this article thinking that Professor Taylor was the author of Radical Tories, a book on Canadian politics. A little more searching on Wikipedia told me that it was written by another Canadian author of the same name. Should there be a note at the top stating "Not to be confused with Canadian journalist Charles P. B. Taylor"? -- Mgushulak (talk) 20:44, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I ask this because the two men have more in common than their names. Both are Canadian, both have written several books and they've lived at approximately the same time. The difference between them is not immediately apparent in the disambiguation page, and the note I suggest would dispel confusion at once. -- Mgushulak (talk) 17:46, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Charles Taylor (philosopher)


text:
Stephen Caracappa and Louis Eppolito

Stephen Caracappa and Louis Eppolito were former New York City Police Department (NYPD) detectives who committed various illegal activities on behalf of the Five Families of the American Mafia, principally the Lucchese and Gambino crime families. The two subsequently became known as the "Mafia Cops".

In 2005, the United States Attorney for the Eastern District of New York indicted Caracappa and Eppolito on charges of racketeering conspiracy for a pattern of murders, kidnappings, witness tampering, obstruction of justice, money laundering, and narcotics dealing with mobsters and mob associates, spanning from the mid-1980s to the mid-2000s. Both were convicted in 2006 and sentenced to life imprisonment in 2009.

Caracappa
Stephen Caracappa (November 12, 1942 – April 8, 2017) had worked in the Organized Crime Homicide Unit of the New York City Police Department (NYPD) since the late 1970s before he eventually retired on a disability pension in 1992, living for a time in Great Kills, Staten Island. He subsequently worked as a private investigator and retired in the mid-1990s, moving to Las Vegas, Nevada, along with Eppolito. Caracappa was working inside the Las Vegas Women's Correctional Facility as a corrections officer at the time of his arrest. While on trial in 2006, both he and Eppolito claimed that they were discriminated against during the proceedings.

Eppolito
Louis Eppolito (July 22, 1948 – November 3, 2019) was born in Brooklyn, New York, the son of Theresa Eppolito, a registered nurse, and Ralph Eppolito, an associate of the Gambino crime family. Eppolito's paternal uncle and cousin, James Eppolito and James Eppolito Jr., were also both made members of the Gambino family, belonging to capo Nino Gaggi's crew. Growing up in East Flatbush, Eppolito became acquainted with several other mobsters. His uncle and cousin were eventually murdered by both Gaggi and Gambino soldier Roy DeMeo, with the permission of Gambino boss Paul Castellano. When he applied to the NYPD in 1969, Eppolito falsely stated that he had no relatives in organized crime.

Eppolito eventually rose to the rank of detective in 1977, a job which garnered him a number of headlines. In 1983, he was suspected and cleared of passing NYPD intelligence reports to Rosario Gambino, a distant relative of Castellano and Carlo Gambino. He retired as a police officer in late 1990. In 1992, Eppolito wrote a book, Mafia Cop: The Story of an Honest Cop Whose Family Was the Mob, in which he spoke of his attempts to avoid being dragged into the Mafia and having to fight for his reputation as a result of the Rosario Gambino case, which he cited as a reason for his leaving the NYPD.

After meeting actor Joe Pesci in Cafe Central, a restaurant frequented by celebrities, Eppolito had a minor career as an actor, with small roles in movies including Lost Highway, Predator 2 and Goodfellas. He moved to Las Vegas around 1994 and sold automobiles at an Infiniti dealership, where he would entertain fellow salesmen with crime scene photos from his time on the force.

Mafia careers
By 1985, federal authorities recognized Caracappa and Eppolito as associates of the Mafia in New York City. Both were known for using inappropriate methods to get results in their police work.

Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso
According to Lucchese family underboss Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso when trying to enroll in Witness Protection in 1994, he and his boss Vittorio "Vic" Amuso had paid Eppolito and Caracappa $375,000 in bribes – and payments for murder contracts – beginning in 1985. Casso stated in 1986 that, as retaliation for an attempt on Casso's life – on the orders of Casso and Amuso – the two police detectives kidnapped and handed over James Hydell, an associate of the Gambino family, to be murdered by Casso.

Later, again on Casso's orders, Caracappa and Eppolito murdered made Lucchese member Bruno Facciolo with the assistance of Louis Daidone, due to Casso suspecting him of being an informant. Facciolo's murder is famous for the stuffed canary federal agents found in his mouth at the crime scene, considered to be a message to other informants. At least partially in retaliation for the 1985 murder of Castellano, arranged by John Gotti, Casso ordered Caracappa and Eppolito to kill Gambino capo Edward "Eddie" Lino. On November 6, 1990, the detectives pulled Lino over in his Mercedes-Benz and shot him nine times.

Las Vegas "retirement"
After wholesale indictments came down for almost every crime family in New York in the mid-1990s, Caracappa and Eppolito retired to Las Vegas, where Casso later confirmed that both were still involved in mob business. The "Mafia Cops" were contacted in 1993 by Frank Lastorino to murder the new head of the Gambino family, John "Junior" Gotti, whose father was imprisoned for life in 1992. The plot failed.

Lastorino also wanted the detectives to murder the underboss of the Lucchese family, Stephen "Wonderboy" Crea, but this plot also failed due to indictments brought against the family. In the late 1990s, both Caracappa and Eppolito conspired to kill former Gambino underboss Salvatore "Sammy the Bull" Gravano, who had entered the Witness Protection Program in 1992 after testifying against the elder Gotti, and collect a reward promised by Gotti's brother Peter. Gravano was later arrested and convicted of drug trafficking in 2003 and was sentenced to serve nineteen years in prison.

Convictions and sentencing
After a long investigation, highlighted by Burton Kaplan's decision to testify against his former confederates, both Caracappa and Eppolito were arrested in March 2005 and charged with counts of racketeering, obstruction of justice, extortion, and eight counts of murder and conspiracy. These included the murders of James Hydell, Nicholas Guido, Israel Greenwald, John "Otto" Heidel, "John Doe", Anthony DiLapi, Bruno Facciolo, Edward Lino, and Bartholomew Boriello – and their involvement in the conspiracy to murder Gravano. Kaplan, a businessman and career criminal who had been the link between Casso and the two detectives, was the chief accuser, giving two days of riveting testimony at trial.

On June 30, 2006, the presiding federal judge, Jack B. Weinstein, threw out a racketeering murder conviction against Caracappa and Eppolito on a technicality – the five-year statute of limitations had expired on the key charge of racketeering conspiracy. On September 17, 2008, their racketeering convictions were ordered reinstated by a federal appeals court. New York City paid $18.4 million to settle seven lawsuits brought by families of the victims of Caracappa and Eppolito.

On March 6, 2009, Eppolito was sentenced to life imprisonment plus 100 years, and Caracappa to life plus 80 years. Each was fined more than $4 million. On July 23, 2010, their convictions were upheld by the Second Circuit.

Incarceration and death
Caracappa was incarcerated at the United States Penitentiary, Coleman in Florida. He was transferred to a federal prison in North Carolina before dying of cancer on April 8, 2017.

Eppolito was incarcerated at the United States Penitentiary, Tucson, a high-security federal prison. He died on November 3, 2019, in federal custody at a Tucson hospital. His cause of death has not been disclosed.

title: Stephen Caracappa and Louis Eppolito