text:
Talk:The Players Championship

Title
The title of this article should really reflect the fact that it is THE PLAYERS Championship, and not The Players Championship. But I don't know how to change that. I encourage someone more experienced than me to do so. -- AppleFan84 00:09, 26 April 2005

Winners list.
Should I change this winners list to standardize it with all of the other PGA TOUR events? (Though I doubt anyone reads this)-- DakPow  e  rs  ( Talk ) 19:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Change it to the format other majors use, ie with score, country, golf course played on (at least before the current course) excetera. Do it regardless of whether anyone is reading it as of now, but they will in the future!--Nick Dillinger 02:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I meant, nobody's reading the talk page. :) I've been trying to standardize all PGA TOUR tournament pages, so with this suggestion I will make a template for Majors (pretty much how they are now), and keep the regular tournaments the same. Unless anyone else has any suggestions. :) DakPow  e  rs  ( Talk ) 13:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you treat the Player's Championship like a major? It really is the 5th most important event in golf, and any treatment that makes it seem significantly less than a major would look like systematic bias.--Nick Dillinger 15:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, it's just tough knowing where to draw that line. Should WGC events be the same way? THE TOUR Championship? I think I'll just leave it here. :) DakPow  e  rs  ( Talk ) 01:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * aslong as the Players is treated like a major, I have no other problems treating the rest as regular tourny's.--Nick Dillinger 03:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Move to The Players Championship, as we don't write article titles in all caps unless they are acronyms or initialisms. See for example PGA Tour, which is written as "PGA TOUR" by them PGA's marketing department, but as "PGA Tour" by the rest of the world. — sjorford++ 13:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * See also Talk:The INTERNATIONAL and Talk:THE TOUR Championship. — sjorford++ 14:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~

 * Support as the ALL CAPS is intended for logo use only, not in real sentences.--Nick Dillinger 22:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - discussions appear to take place in conventional lower case. SilkTork 16:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The TOUR and the PLAYERS are written just as they are, as in any golf magazine or website. – DakPow  e  rs  ( Talk ) 00:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose PGA TOUR and THE TOUR Championship article titles should be written in all caps too. We don't get to pick how the owner of the trademark chooses to render it; we should, however, honor their decision.
 * No we shouldn't. Find the section on trademarks in our Manual of Style. ed g2s • talk 23:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments

Result:done
I just moved it, makes sense. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 20:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Need a Photo
Anyone have a photo of the 17th for the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.136.15.130 (talk) 15:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

2013 Championship
The 2013 Championship has now began and the page still links to 2013 as there is not yet an article for 2013. 86.152.153.164 (talk) 00:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

 * There is a separate article, now, about the 2013 tournament. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 00:06, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Date of the tournament
THe article says this:

With the rearrangement of 2007, the final round of The Players Championship is scheduled for the second Sunday of May, Mother's Day.

But this year, the final round of the tournament is scheduled for the third Sunday of May (a week after Mother's Day). The article should be updated to reflect this change. 173.176.89.18 (talk) 15:16, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 23 November 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a consensus that "the" is part of the proper name of this event. (closed by page mover) Brad  v  04:43, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

The Players Championship → Players Championship (golf) – Per WP:THE and MOS:TMTHE, and because this fails WP:SMALLDETAILS since every single thing at Players Championship (disambiguation) is sometimes referred to as "the Players Championship" in its context. A leading "The" (much less a capitalized one in mid-sentence) is not consistently used in reliable sources for this golf tournament, even in golf-specific sources. Also need to clean up the text to stop capitalizing "The" in mid-sentence, per MOS:CAPS. Yes, we know the trademark holder likes to capitalize it and various golf writers do as well, but this is exactly the same case as overcapitalization of "the" in band names and in music journalism, and the same in university and other organization names and their internal house style sheets. We just don't do that here except for the rarest of odd exceptions, like The The and The Hague, and only because independent, reliable sources do so with near uniform consistency for those cases. That just demonstrably does not apply here. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  21:00, 23 November 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Mahveotm (talk) 17:13, 1 December 2017 (UTC) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  03:10, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Question: is this not an exception to WP:THE (similar to The New York Times)?... also, I think this is overwhelmingly the primary topic for Players Championship... so even if we drop the “The”, I don’t see the need for parenthetical disambiguation. Blueboar (talk) 22:21, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The New York Times is not an exception to WP:THE; it's a title of a published work, and a leading The is retained in capitalized form in the titles of works, per MOS:TITLES. A golf tournament is not a publication.  There is no grounds for an exception here, because "The" is provably not an integral part of the name (much less in perpetually capitalized form) in most reliable source material; it just appears sometimes. By contrast, The The and The Hague always take "the", virtually always capitalized "The", regardless of English dialect or type of publication, and you'll even find at least The Hague listed as an exception to capitalization rules in various major off-Wikipedia style guides. PS: Whether this subject is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC or not might be an argument for moving it to Players Championship and moving the DAB page to Players Championship (disambiguation), but not for retaining "The".  No one's made a properly documented PRIMARY case for doing so, and unless they do, the proposed rename to Players Championship (golf) is standard practice. If it were the primary topic, and given that this article has existed since 2005, why doesn't Players Championship already come to this article?  I think people who are not golf players/fans are apt to contest making this the primary topic, but I don't care either way, as long as the leading "The" is removed.
 * Note: the stylized name of the tournament is THE PLAYERS Championship, or THE PLAYERS for short. So the PGA Tour clearly considers "The" to be an integral part of the title. pʰeːnuːmuː  →  pʰiːnyːmyː  →  ɸinimi  →  fiɲimi  04:24, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Support move per nom. The PGA may consider "The" to be part of the title, but reliable sources often use lowercase "the", indicating that the common name is "Players Championship". I have no opinion as to whether disambiguation is necessary.  ONR  (talk) 09:35, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose: "The" is an integral part of the name. We have others, including The Open Championship, The Amateur Championship. Calling the Open article "Open Championship" wouldn't make any sense, the whole point of the "The" is to stress that its The Open Championship, not any old Open Championship but the first, the original. Similarly here it's The Players Championship, not any old Players Championship. The fact that we often use "the Open Championship" in the text (lower case "the") is simply that when it's clear that we're talking about this event we don't need to use "The" pedantically but use "the" which reads better. Nigej (talk) 09:40, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Except the sourcing already provides proves that "The" is not an integral part of the name at all. That's the entire point of this RM. The fact that two other golf championships are overcapitalized this way is WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS and WP:OFFICIALNAME, and just a demonstration that this is a run-of-the-mill WP:Specialized-style fallacy: golf people just really love to over-capitalize these things as a form of emphasis, of "special signification".  doing that is the first rule of WP:MOSCAPS.  PS: "Calling the Open article "Open Championship" wouldn't make any sense" only because it's ambiguous; the proper article title is Open Championship (golf), as with Players Championship (golf), Players Championship (snooker), Masters (darts), Masters (snooker), and a zillion other ambiguous tournament and tour names.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  07:53, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * You say the article describing The Open Championship is overcapitalized and is "other crap"? Lord have mercy. The Open Championship is, well, The Open Championship, possibly and historically the most honored name in sports. Nothing like it in the world, nor should there be. And you say in an edit summary that "its next on the list" after this RM. Nope, its page, and this page, are already perfectly named. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:33, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * To me a title like Open Championship (golf) makes no sense for The Open. There are hundreds of golf Open Championships but only one the goes as "The Open". Similarly there are loads of golf Masters events but every golfer knows what they mean when they say The Masters. I can see you're keen on WP:whatevers but surely we just need some common sense sometimes and to me the current title is perfectly ok. Nigej (talk) 18:18, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * This book explains that "The Open" and "The Open Championship" are short for "The Open Championship of the British Isles". And this one explains it with only "Open" being capped. Lots of sources don't cap "the" in this context. There's not much support in sources for the idea that "The" is an essential part of the name. Dicklyon (talk) 06:02, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * This is completely untrue. I have never heard it called "The Open Championship of the British Isles". There is no "of the British Isles" in its title. It is "The Open Championship". It is often referred to as the British Open but this is not an official title. Nigej (talk) 08:13, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  23:13, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose this good faith nom, per Nigej. The name of this unofficial fifth major tournament contains the well-known 'The' (and is even stylized by its logo and other examples as 'The Players'), so in this case 'the' is an important part of its common name. And per The Beatles, where the 'the' isn't usually used in sentence case, but is an integral part of the article title. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:46, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The Beatles is not a parallel case, because bands are covered by a special guideline, Manual of Style/Music, which consensus has established is a partial variance from WP:THE, while sport events are not.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  07:53, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The name of this tournament, as every golf fan recognizes, is The Players Championship. Just as every Beatles fan knows that the full name of the Beatles is The Beatles. We are an encyclopedia, an encyclopedia which is not quite trusted by much of the public because "anyone can edit", thus "Crazy Joe down the street might be putting nonsense into it as we speak". Changing the name of the unofficial fifth-major of golf could cause further mistrust of Wikipedia, on a conscious or unconscious level, of every golf fan who sees the page. There is a policy or guideline somewhere (yes?) that we should think of the reader on every edit. That's what some of us do when considering names of articles, that if the real name, the familiar name, is available and easily read and rendered, we go with that, for the good of Wikipedia and its readers., a tweak and a qualifier is surely not needed in this case, for as the real name of a well-known event the name is already encyclopedicly perfect. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:26, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Except even golf publications treat the name this way, as the evidence provided in the nomination proves. You can keep recycling the disproven same fannish assertions over and over, but it will not change the fact of what the sources show; sorry.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  11:29, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Your one and only example is of a single article on PGAtour.com which says, quote, "He hasn’t won since his 2016 PLAYERS Championship triumph...". That's your reason for wanting to change this "fannish" (?) title? That the great god "Consistency" can take away common and proper names from major events because one guy on a website paraphrased its name? Randy Kryn (talk) 12:36, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * There are other examples from websites which paraphrase the name, but, like when "the Beatles" is used and not the actual name of the band, those website writers are paraphrasing the name of the topic. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:48, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Randy. The Beatles were exactly the analogy I was thinking of as well. Yes, the "the" might be lowercased in running prose, and left off when the name is used as an attributive noun phrase, but we would never title our article as "Beatles" without the "the". Also, the vast majority of results on Google books for the search "player's championship" are for the golf tournament, which indicates to me that it is the primary topic (Google news shows similar results, though the darts tournament is presenting a bit higher at the moment as the event just passed.) oknazevad (talk) 11:43, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * See above; The Beatles is subject to a different guideline. And again, whether or not this is the WP:PRIMARY topic has nothing to do with the "The" matter, only with whether this should be at Players Championship (golf) or at Players Championship with the DAB page moved to Players Championship (disambiguation).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  07:53, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Check this out..., the nominator, along with other wholesale changes, just went into the text of the Manual of Style on Capital letters and removed this, which points out that The Open Championship is an exception to the 'The' guideline. He says that "it's next on the list after The Player's Championship". WP:WTF? If I went in, removed a guideline example about an exception, and then threatened to change its name, I'd be hog-tied and given some kind of ban. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:13, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems he's set his heart on winning this one, despite our opposition. Nigej (talk) 18:21, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * As per WP:BRD, SMcC having been bold, it's open to another editor to revert, and then we can have yet another discussion... Peter coxhead (talk) 19:38, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * You're right, and I was too harsh in my comment. I'm glad I found that deletion though. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:53, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems the "rent-a-vote" has come in to push it through. Nigej (talk) 08:15, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * please WP:AGF. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:27, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I did until the proposer started changing the rules. Now I'm in my cynical phase. Nigej (talk) 10:53, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * BRD works both ways. When someone goes to MoS and inserts a pet "rule" without any discussion that serves no purpose but to carve out a one-topic alleged exception – which isn't actually reflected in the sources, or this RM would not be happening – anyone can revert it, even if the addition has gone undetected for a while. It's standard operating procedure to revert additions to guidelines and policies that are attempts at nit-picky exception making, unless there's a demonstrable consensus (e.g. an RfC) to include them. Most such things have been stripped from all such pages long ago.  I have no issue with my revert of that addition being re-reverted in turn, but the material is marked as disputed in the interim. See also WP:FAITACCOMPLI; Randy Kryn's argument ("According to our own guidelines the present name is fine", below) is that this RM should be rejected because MoS has a line-item permitting the exception; but the line-item was added without consensus specifically to try to make it permissible, to exempt this and two other golf tournament articles from a big pile of guidelines by putting them in a magic bubble. Consensus doesn't work that way.
 * A magic bubble isn't needed (and remember readers and closer, the nominator has already said that the next on the list is The Open Championship, arguably the most honored name in sports) because this is the real and common name for this tourney. My argument is not that a line-item permits the "exception" but that the present name meets all of the WP:CRITERIA asked for by our style-guideline on the RM template, which are what article titles and moves are supposed to be based on. The present title is fine, no need to fix what certainly is not broken. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:33, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Support – though many sources copy the styling with all-caps "THE PLAYERS", and lots do cap the "The", quite a few also do like WP style and drop or downcase to "the", since it's not an essential part of the title. Even books by golfers use lowercase "the" quite often:, , , , , , . Dicklyon (talk) 20:55, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * So what? That some author's paraphrase the name has nothing to do with what a Wikipedia RM is based on according to the RM template itself. The template says that the multiple points presented at the WP:Article titles page determine the title. The present name is recognizable, precise, concise enough to differentiate from other sports' championships, and is the accepted common and familiar name. There is no problem here. According to our own guidelines the present name is fine. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:20, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The "so what" is that neither golf nor non-golf sources consistently do "The Players Championship", but often "the Players Championship", "Players Championship" (and stuff like "The PLAYERS Championship", etc.). There is no case to make that "The" is a required part of the name – in our writing or anyone else's, not even in the specialist material. Ergo, both WP:THE and MOS:CAPS apply. Golf fans inserting a pet "golf tournament rule" into MOS:CAPS without consensus doesn't magically undo the applicability of the guidelines' general rules.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  23:24, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Question: in these examples, are the ones omitting the definite article before "Players" followed by another noun, such as "Players Championship victory" or other such phrases? Because then it is standard English rules to leave off a leading article, but doesn't mean it's not part of the name. Again, just as I could say "Magical Mystery Tour is my favorite Beatles album" doesn't mean we leave off the "the" when using the name of the band standalone (because in the above sentence it's being used in the role of an adjective). Such uses have no bearing on whether the name of the tournament has a leading "the". oknazevad (talk) 15:01, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The Magical Mystery Tour is a title of a work, subject to MOS:TITLES. And the comparison doesn't make sense anyway, since "The Magical Mystery Tour is my favorite" is the normal way to say that; leaving the "The" off is slangish informality, and thus not relevant to formal writing.  — SMcCandlish' ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  11:57, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
 * However it remains the case that it's a perfectly good name, the golf community seem quite happy with it, guidelines are only guidelines and it seems pure pedantry to change it. And I can still be happy to write "I went to see the Beatles" and have their article called "The Beatles". Nigej (talk) 09:40, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * WP isn't written by or for "the golf community", and doesn't care what they're perfectly happy with under their style guides in their publications. But as proven right at the start, golf publications are not in fact consistent about this at all.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  11:57, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
 * WP is an encyclopedia, and any title which seems incorrect by the very people who know and care about an event lessens the respect for Wikipedia as a reliable tool and increases the viewpoint of Wikipedia being an inadequate source. You want to lessen the title of this event and then, as proclaimed, use the result here to lessen and incorrectly label what is arguably the most honored name in sports, The Open Championship. You don't agree, but in my opinion these type of actions hurt the overall Wikipedia project and lends credence to the "anyone can edit Wikipedia so it's not reliable" meme. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:11, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
 * WP is there to help people find stuff. However my experience in life is that it's better for the stuff to be written by those who know something about the topic, rather than those who don't, hence the part of my comment about the golf community. Nigej (talk) 12:34, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

1. Secondary sources are very often less attentive to such minor details, and the COMMONNAME principle can be over-applied like any p&g. We are not slaves to the secondaries on something like this, any more than we would misspell a word because a majority of secondary sources misspell it. Besides, have the Supports even shown such a majority, or are they cherry-picking? Unlike with the comma-before-Jr issue, the "official" name is clear enough here, and I don't think anybody would claim that this is merely an arbitrary style element. 2. Guidelines are not set in stone and are themselves a work in progress. The guidelines applicable here already include exceptions determined by consensus. "There is no exception for this" is not a viable Support argument unless the community has already thoroughly considered this case and decided that it should not be an exception. I don't see a link to that consensus. I don't even need to invoke WP:IAR, although I reasonably could do so. I don't play or care about golf. ― Mandruss  ☎  16:19, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Randy, Nigej and others.  Calidum   05:10, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The Support rationale appears to have two main components: secondary sources, and guidelines.

Discussion
Concern has been raised above about edits to guidelines affecting this RM. I have raised the matter on the relevant talk page. Andrewa (talk) 02:47, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Winner ranking
The table shows the World Rankings of the winners of each Players championship in the week before their victory (since 1987)

title: Talk:The Players Championship


text: User talk:24.182.97.141

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:24.182.97.141


text:
Portal:The arts/Featured picture

Instructions

 * 1) For pictures, which appeared as Picture of the day on the Main Page, use . For other pictures, use Portal:The arts/Featured picture/Layout.
 * 2) Add a new featured picture to the next available subpage by clicking a red link below.

title: Portal:The arts/Featured picture


text:
Talk:Serotonergic

Untitled
The only article that linked here in the past was Paroxetine, this has been fixed, and commented on in the Talk:Paroxetine page. --Overand 00:10, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dictionary definition
"Pertaining to or affecting serotonin" sounds like a dictionary definition per WP:NOTDICTIONARY.

This article needs a major rewrite.

Pinging article creator and active editors: ,, , , , , —  CrafterNova  [ TALK ] [ CONT ] 12:26, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

 * This page should rightfully be optimized as either a set index article or merely a disambiguation page. The latter is probably enough, as DABs usually contain a link to Wiktionary for the dictdef (for any users who desire it). Quercus solaris (talk) 21:06, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll be WP:bold and make it a DAB. If anyone is scandalized by that change, feel free to revert it (kindly, without prejudice). Quercus solaris (talk) 21:12, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Serotonergic


text:
Braintree Freeport railway station

Braintree Freeport railway station is on the Braintree Branch Line in the East of England, serving the Braintree Village shopping centre (formerly known as Braintree Freeport). It is 44 mi down the line from London Liverpool Street via Witham and it is situated between Cressing to the south and Braintree to the north. Its three-letter station code is BTP. The platform has an operational length for eight-coach trains.

The station is managed by Greater Anglia, which also operates all trains serving it.

History
The station was opened on 8 November 1999. There is a single, unstaffed platform with a shelter and a self-service ticket machine but there is no station building or other facilities.

Services
All services at Braintree Freeport are operated by Greater Anglia using EMUs.

The typical off-peak service is one train per hour in each direction between Braintree and London Liverpool Street via Witham with additional services calling at the station during the peak hours.

On Sundays, southbound services at the station run only as far as Witham.

title: Braintree Freeport railway station


text:
Scouting in Washington, D.C.

Scouting in Washington, D.C. (District of Columbia) has a long history, from the 1910s to the present day, serving thousands of youth in programs that suit the environment in which they live.

History
Washington, D.C., was set to host the 1935 National Scout Jamboree, celebrating the 25th anniversary of the BSA, however it was canceled due to a polio epidemic, so the 1937 National Scout Jamboree became the first jamboree and was held there.

On March 11, 1962, then World Chief Guide Lady Olave Baden-Powell visited for the 50th anniversary of Girl Scouts.

National Capital Area Council

The National Capital Area Council (NCAC) serves scouts in the Washington, D.C., Maryland, Virginia, and the United States Virgin Islands. The council offers extensive training, and administrative support to units. It is rated as a "Class 100" council by the National Council (headquarters office), which denotes that the NCAC is among the very largest in the country. Chartered in 1911, it is also one of the oldest. The council is divided into 23 districts serving ten counties in Northern Virginia, six counties in Maryland, the District of Columbia, and the US Virgin Islands. The council has a 2.5 to 1 ratio of youth members to adult leaders, which is among the highest of all the councils. The youth retention rate approaches 80%.

Girl Scouting
From 1913 until 1916 Washington was the national headquarters of the Girl Scouts and it was here that the first National Council meeting was held in 1915. In 1916 the headquarters moved to New York City.

Girl Scout Council of the Nation's Capital
Girl Scout Council of the Nation's Capital serves girls in Washington, D.C., and large parts of Maryland, Virginia, and West Virginia.

International Scouting units in the District of Columbia
Külföldi Magyar Cserkészszövetség Hungarian Scouting maintains a troop in Washington.

The First Canadian Embassy Scout Group is sponsored by the Canadian Embassy with permission of Scouts Canada and the Boy Scouts of America. Membership is restricted to non-US citizens and is open to both girls and boys.

title: Scouting in Washington, D.C.


text:
User talk:Dariob

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text:
Noah Noble

Noah Noble (January 15, 1794 – February 8, 1844) was the fifth governor of the U.S. state of Indiana from 1831 to 1837. His two terms focused largely on internal improvements, culminating in the passage of the Mammoth Internal Improvement Act, which was viewed at the time as his crowning achievement. His taxing recommendations to pay for the improvements were not fully enacted, and the project ultimately led the state to negotiate a partial bankruptcy only a few years later. The debacle led to a gradual collapse of the state Whig party, which never regained control of the government, and led to a period of Democratic control that lasted until the middle of the American Civil War. After his term as governor he was appointed to the Board of Internal Improvement where he unsuccessfully advocated a reorganization of the projects in an attempt to gain some benefit from them.

Family and background
Noah Noble was born in Berryville, Virginia, on January 15, 1794, one of fourteen children of Dr. Thomas Noble and Elizabeth Clair Sedgwick Noble. Around 1800, his family moved to the frontier where his father opened a medical practice in Campbell County, Kentucky. In 1807, the family moved again to Boone County where his father acquired a 300 acre plantation which was operated by slave labor. Noble moved to Brookville, Indiana, around 1811 at age seventeen, following his brother James Noble, who had moved there some time earlier. James was a prominent lawyer and later United States Senator.

In Indiana he made several business ventures with his partner Enoch D. John. Together they operated a hotel in Brookville, became heavily involved in land speculation, and opened a water-powered weaving mill with a wool carding machine. Noble also opened a trading company called N. Noble & Company. The company purchased produce from area farmers and shipped it to New Orleans to be sold. In 1819 a boating accident destroyed one of his shipments and left him with a large debt that took several years to repay. Later that year he married his cousin, Catherin Stull van Swearingen. The two shared the same great-grandfather. They had three children, but only one survived into adulthood; two died as infants.

Entry into politics
Noble entered politics in 1820, winning an election to become Franklin County's sheriff. By the time of his 1822 reelection bid he had become very popular in the county, and he won reelection 1,186 to 9 votes. He was commissioned a lieutenant colonel in the 7th Regiment of the Indiana militia in 1817, and a colonel in 1820. When his term as sheriff expired, he ran to represent the county in the Indiana House of Representatives, winning overwhelmingly. He was reelected again the following year but resigned following the death of his brother Lazarus. Lazarus had been the Receiver of Public Moneys of the Indianapolis Land Office, and his death left a vacancy. His brother, Senator James Noble, used his influence to secure the post for Noble, who remained in the position until 1829. The job took him to Indianapolis, where he was responsible for collecting revenue for the federal government. The position brought him into contact with many of the leading men in the state and he was quick to create good relationships with them. Following the election of President Andrew Jackson and the employment of the spoils system, Noble was removed from the position.

Finding himself without a job, Noble launched another business venture. Before he could open the new business, his friends in the Indiana General Assembly appointed him to a commission that was responsible for laying out the Michigan Road. He remained on the commission until 1831, at which time he announced his candidacy for governor of Indiana as a Whig candidate, and secured the Whig nomination.

Governor
During the campaign, he accused his Democratic opponent James G. Read of being ineligible to run because he was a Federal Receiver. The state constitution forbade state officials from holding both federal and state positions simultaneously. His opponent made a similar charge against Noble, who still held his position as a federal commissioner working on the Michigan Road. Noble campaigned heavily on the internal improvement platform and won the election by a plurality of 23,518 votes to Read's 21,002, with independent Milton Stapp taking 6,894.

After becoming governor he purchased several lots on the eastern edge of the capitol, planting an orchard and vineyard and building a large brick home. He brought some of his father's emancipated slaves with him to work in his household, one of whom was supposedly the model for Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom. She visited Noble's home on more than one occasion.

First term

Indiana was continuing to experience a period of prosperity as a large influx of settlers purchased land, thereby providing a large income for the government. Noble's predecessor had begun the framework for the large-scale internal improvements that were to come, but had significantly delayed the start of the canal projects. Noble set to work immediately and within a few months he completed surveying the route of the Wabash and Erie Canal and made several recommendations regarding its construction. Noble was opposed to railroads, which he viewed as monopolies since only the rail company could transport goods on the line, whereas canals were open to anyone had a boat. Construction on the canal began in earnest in 1832.

Construction on state roads was progressing slowly because of a lack of funding. Noble proposed the state borrow money to speed the construction process, but the legislature rejected his proposal. He also recommended the creation of an Internal Improvement Board to coordinate the projects and possibly reduce costs through better organization and purchase of supplies in bulk, but again the General Assembly rejected the proposal, and instead kept the projects operating under several different project boards. His first term passed with little advancement on the internal improvement front because the representatives from southern part of the state blocked any large-scale plans on the grounds that such projects would have little value for their constituents since most of the projects would be in the central part of the state.

Noble had a census conducted and recommended that the legislature reapportion representation to grant more seats to the central counties. The legislature approved the plan, and expanded the Senate and House of Representatives to their present sizes of 50 and 100 seats, respectively. The change gave the central and northern parts of the state more representatives than the south for the first time, despite the fact that the south was still significantly more populous. Noble made several recommendations for the reform of public schools. Most of the measures were not accepted, but the expansion of the Indiana College was approved, and township schools were granted considerably more power over their own operations.

The Second Bank of the United States was closed during Noble's first term, leaving the state without a bank to hold government deposits or to supply paper money. There had been no banks operating in Indiana for a decade, so with no alternative to the situation the General Assembly passed a bill to create the Bank of Indiana. Noble had not taken a position on the bill, but signed it into law. The bank eventually turned out to be very profitable and one of the most important acts of his time in office. Noble also oversaw the creation of plans to build Indiana's third statehouse in 1831. The building was completed in 1835, and he also oversaw the move of the government's offices.

Second Term

Noble was re-elected in 1834, campaigning against James G. Read for a second time. During the campaign, Noble sold a Kentucky slave that belonged to his father. The account was widely published, and turned the anti-slavery elements in the state against him, demonstrating by his receiving only 28 votes from the Quaker-dominated eastern counties of the state. He ultimately won the election, 27,767 to 19,994 votes. Noble called out the militia in parts of the state when it was threatened during the Black Hawk War, a Native American uprising to the west of Indiana. 150 men were sent to Illinois, where they skirmished with the native uprising. The scare was only brief, and the focus soon returned to the internal improvements.

With the legislature closely divided on the issue, additional projects were proposed for the southern areas of the state to gain the support of their representatives. All the projects were bundled into one bill and passed as the Mammoth Internal Improvement Act in 1836. The act caused a great deal of celebration in the state and Noble considered the act his greatest achievement at the time. To pay for the act, which was projected to cost $10 million, Noble had also recommended a 50% increase in all state taxes. However, the legislature failed to pass that measure.

The Panic of 1837 hit the following year, causing a sharp decrease in tax revenues, even as the state budget was already faced a large deficit because of the interest on the debt. Property taxes were the state's primary regular income, and to increase the revenue Noble proposed that the tax be levied ad valorem. The change would save the state a significant amount in administrative and collection costs, and make more land subject to taxation. The tax was approved and led to a 25% increase in revenue the following year, but it was still not enough to cover the deficit. Noble proposed the projects be prioritized, and work halted on the less important ones to conserve funds, but the plan was rejected. By the time Noble left office, the state's financial situation was bleak, but it was not yet fully apparent that far more had been borrowed than could be paid back. Despite the dire situation, Noble left office in 1837 as a popular political figure and was able to use his prestige to help elect David Wallace, his lieutenant governor, as governor.

In both 1834 and 1836, Noble had his name entered as a candidate for the United States Senate, but in both years the legislature decided to send someone else to Congress, much to Noble's disappointment.

State bankruptcy
After leaving office Noble became a member of the Board of Internal Improvements which was tasked with overseeing the ongoing internal improvements in the state. In 1840, the state ended all funding for the projects. By early 1841 it was clear that the state would not be able to pay even the interest on its debt, and paying it off was out of the question. The board approved the sending of James Lanier to negotiate a bankruptcy with the state's creditors, and all the internal improvement projects, except the separately funded Wabash and Erie Canal, were turned over to the creditors in exchange for a 50% reduction in the state's debt.

Death and legacy
Even before Noble had left office, many of his opponents began to blame him for the state's financial situation. He argued that he had proposed tax increases to fund the project, and it was the fault of the General Assembly for not enacting them. Although the short term situation was devastating to the state and many of the projects were never completed, the groundwork laid by the projects led to rapid development after the financial situation was resolved. In the meantime, the debacle became apparent to the public during his successor's term and led to the gradual collapse of the state's Whig party, which never regained power in Indiana. In the immediate years thereafter the Democrats came to power and disposed of all the projects. The situation ultimately led to language in the 1851 constitution prohibiting the state from assuming debt.

Noble returned to private life following the dissolution of the Internal Improvement Board in 1841. The situation was too dire, and opinion too anti-Whig for Noble to have a serious chance of winning public office again. He died at the age of 50 in Indianapolis two years later, on February 8, 1844, and was buried next to his wife, Catherin, in Greenlawn Cemetery. His body was moved to Crown Hill Cemetery in Indianapolis on 14 July 1874.

Noble County, Indiana is named in his honor, as is Noble Township in Cass County.

title: Noah Noble


text:
Talk:Irreconcilables

Shandong issue
No mention of the Shandong Problem which senators cited as the key issue? --JWB (talk) 19:46, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Irreconcilables


text:
Mourning Athena

The so-called Mourning Athena (or Σκεπτομένη Αθηνά "Pensive Athena") is an Athenian marble relief dated circa 460 BC which depicts Athena, the Greek goddess of wisdom and warfare and patron-deity of the city of Athens. The relief is 0.48 m high and made of Parian marble. Today it is displayed at the Acropolis Museum in Athens, with inventory no. 695.

Description
The goddess, Athena, marked by her helmet of the Corinthian type, wears a peplos, clasped at the shoulders and cinched at the waist. She rests her right hand on her hip and crosses her left leg over her right. Her left hand grasps a spear on which she leans, and her head is inclined.

The meaning of her bowed head has been a matter of debate since the relief's excavation from the Acropolis of Athens in 1888. As the conventional name suggests, many have taken the posture to indicate sadness or pensiveness, and thus to interpret the rectangular object on the viewer's right as a stele, a stone slab that serves as a grave marker. Others see an 'exhausted Athena', and others still see no such emotion. The exact nature of the rectangular object, too, is unclear – some suggest that an object was perched atop it (e.g., the infant Erichthonius) – others that it is a marker from a race-course.

title: Mourning Athena


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Talk:Iwan

Untitled
Great pictures. The section that you did had a good amount of information and it is intriguing! Ties in nicely with what you talked about on tuesday in your lecture! Sara — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slfitzpa (talk • contribs) 03:04, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

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add more examples/pictures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isfahan#/media/File:Si-o-se-Pol.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isfahan#/media/File:Khaju-Bridge-Esfahan.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.45.7 (talk) 18:24, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

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Etymology
The main part of the etymology section was unsourced for a long time and did not seem to reflect a general scholarly view, in which apparently the "apadana" etymology is not considered secure. I've added some very basic introductory sentences and statements to that effect, with some minor rewording elsewhere (see this edit), but I haven't found more information from quick searches. The connection between the words apadana and iwan, two very different forms, is also not explained in the article. So we need a fuller explanation based on current scholarly literature (which may or may not have concrete alternate theories).

Note: I nearly thought that some of the text had been copied from this Master's thesis by a student at METU (which also concludes by saying the etymology is uncertain), until I saw that the Wikipedia text was older than that thesis and so it was likely copied in the other direction. If you're looking for references and come across that paper, please don't cite it, per WP:CIRCULAR. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 15:14, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

The formal gateway to the iwan is called pishtaq
This is only a term used in Persian-speaking countries. It is not as universal as iwan, and this should be indicated. 2603:7081:5D00:385C:8D6B:2CA5:29C2:417C (talk) 22:25, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Iwan


text:
Rondeau (forme fixe)

A rondeau (plural: rondeaux) is a form of medieval and Renaissance French poetry, as well as the corresponding musical chanson form. Together with the ballade and the virelai it was considered one of three formes fixes, and one of the verse forms in France most commonly set to music between the late 13th and the 15th centuries. It is structured around a fixed pattern of repetition of verse with a refrain. The rondeau is believed to have originated in dance songs involving singing of the refrain by a group alternating with the other lines by a soloist. The term "Rondeau" is used both in a wider sense, covering older styles of the form which are sometimes distinguished as the triolet and rondel, and in a narrower sense referring to a 15-line style which developed from these forms in the 15th and 16th centuries. The rondeau is unrelated to the much later instrumental dance form that shares the same name in French baroque music, which is more commonly called the rondo form in classical music.

Verse structure
The older French rondeau or rondel as a song form between the 13th and mid-15th century begins with a full statement of its refrain, which consists of two halves. This is followed first by a section of non-refrain material that mirrors the metrical structure and rhyme of the refrain's first half, then by a repetition of the first half of the refrain, then by a new section corresponding to the structure of the full refrain, and finally by a full restatement of the refrain. Thus, it can be schematically represented as AB aAab AB, where "A" and "B" are the repeated refrain parts, and "a" and "b" the remaining verses. If the poem has more than one stanza, it continues with further sequences of aAab AB, aAab AB, etc.

In its simplest and shortest form, the rondeau simple, each of the structural parts is a single verse, leading to the eight-line structure known today as triolet, as shown in "Doulz viaire gracieus" by Guillaume de Machaut:

In larger rondeau variants, each of the structural sections may consist of several verses, although the overall sequence of sections remains the same. Variants include the rondeau tercet, where the refrain consists of three verses, the rondeau quatrain, where it consists of four (and, accordingly, the whole form of sixteen), and the rondeau cinquain, with a refrain of five verses (and a total length of 21), which becomes the norm in the 15th century. In the rondeau quatrain, the rhyme scheme is usually ABBA ab AB abba ABBA; in the rondeau cinquain it is AABBA aab AAB aabba AABBA.

A typical example of a rondeau cinquain of the 15th century is the following:

 * Allés, Regrez, vuidez de ma presence;
 * allés ailleurs querir vostre acointance;
 * assés avés tourmenté mon las cueur,
 * rempli de deuil pour estre serviteur
 * d'une sans per que j'ay aymée d'enfance.

 * Fait lui avés longuement ceste offence,
 * Ou est celluy qui onc fut ne en France,
 * qui endurast tel mortel deshonneur?
 * Allés, Regrez, …

 * N'y tournés plus, car, par ma conscience,
 * se plus vous voy prochain de ma plaisance,
 * devant chascun vous feray tel honneur
 * que l'on dira que la main d'ung seigneur
 * vous a bien mis a la malle meschance.
 * Allés, Regrez, …

In the medieval manuscripts, the restatement of the refrain is usually not written out, but only indicated by giving the first words or first line of the refrain part. After the mid-15th century, this feature came to be regarded no longer as a mere scribal abbreviation, but as an actual part of the poetry. As the form was gradually divorced from the musical structure and became a purely literary genre, it is often not entirely clear how much of the refrain material was actually meant to be repeated. A rondeau quatrain in which the first refrain interjection (lines 7–8, rhymes AB) is preserved in full, while the final restatement of the refrain is reduced to a single line (A) or again just two lines (AB), ends up with a total of 13 or 14 lines respectively. This form is usually defined as the "rondel" in modern literary compendia.

Another version has the refrains shortened even further. Both restatements are reduced to just the first two or three words of the first line, which now stand as short, pithy, non-rhyming lines in the middle and at the end of the poem. These half-lines are called rentrement. If derived from the erstwhile rondeau quatrain, this results in a 12-line structure that is now called the "rondeau prime", with the rentrements in lines 7 and 12. If derived from the erstwhile 21-line rondeau cinquain, the result is a 15-line form with the rentrements in lines 9 and 15 (rhyme scheme aabba–aabR–aabbaR). This 15-line form became the norm in the literary rondeau of the later Renaissance, and is known as the "rondeau" proper today. The following is a typical example of this form:

 * Avant mes jours mort me fault encourir,
 * Par un regard dont m'as voulu ferir,
 * Et ne te chault de ma grefve tristesse;
 * Mais n'est ce pas à toy grande rudesse,
 * Veu que to peulx si bien me secourir?

 * Auprés de l'eau me fault de soif perir;
 * Je me voy jeune, et en aage fleurir,
 * Et si me monstre estre plein de vieillesse
 * Avant mes jours.

 * Or, si je meurs, je veulx Dieu requerir
 * Prendre mon ame, et sans plus enquerir,
 * Je donne aux vers mon corps plein de foiblesse;
 * Quant est du cueur, du tout je te le laisse,
 * Ce nonobstant que me faces mourir
 * Avant mes jours.

A large corpus of medieval French rondeaux was collected, catalogued, and studied by Nico H.J. van den Boogaard in his dissertation Rondeaux et refrains du XIIe siècle au début du XIVe: Collationnement, introduction et notes (Paris: Klincksieck, 1969).

Musical form

Like the other formes fixes, the Rondeau (in its original form with full refrains) was frequently set to music. The earliest surviving polyphonic rondeaux are by the trouvère Adam de la Halle in the late 13th century. In the 14th and 15th centuries, Guillaume de Machaut, Guillaume Dufay, Hayne van Ghizeghem and other prominent composers were prolific in the form. Early rondeaux are usually found as interpolations in longer narrative poems, and separate monophonic musical settings survive. After the 15th century, the musical form went out of fashion and the rondeau became a purely literary form.

The musical rondeau is typically a two-part composition, with all the "A" sections of the poem's AB-aAab-AB structure set to one line of music, and all the "B" parts to another.

Although far rarer than the French usage, the Italian equivalent, the rondello was occasionally composed and listed among the Italian forms of poetry for music. A single rondello appears in the Rossi Codex. In addition, several rondeaux in French appear entirely in sources originating in Italy, the Low Countries, and Germany, suggesting that these works (including Esperance, qui en mon cuer) may not have a purely French provenance.

Later, in the Baroque era, the label rondeau (or the adjectival phrase en rondeau) was applied to dance movements in simple refrain form by such composers as Jean-Baptiste Lully and Louis Couperin.

Arnold Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire sets 21 poems by Albert Giraud, each of which is a 13-line poetic rondeau.

English rondeau
The French rondeau forms have been adapted to English at various times by different poets. Geoffrey Chaucer wrote two rondeaus in the rondeau tercet form, one of them at the end of The Parliament of Fowls, where the birds are said to "synge a roundel" to a melody "imaked in Fraunce":

 * Now welcome, somer, with thy sonne softe,
 * That hast thes wintres wedres overshake,
 * And driven away the longe nyghtes blake!

 * Saynt Valentyn, that art ful hy on-lofte,
 * Thus syngen smale foules for they sake:

 * Now welcome, somer, with thy sonne softe,
 * That hast thes wintres wedres overshake,

 * Wel han they cause for to gladen ofte,
 * Sith ech of hem recovered hath hys make,
 * Ful blissful mowe they synge when they wake:

 * Now welcome, somer, with thy sonne softe,
 * That hast thes wintres wedres overshake,
 * And driven away the longe nyghtes blake!

In its classical 16th-century 15-line form with a rentrement (aabba–aabR–aabbaR), the rondeau was used by Thomas Wyatt. Later, it was reintroduced by some late 19th-century and 20th-century poets, such as Paul Laurence Dunbar ("We Wear the Mask"). It was customarily regarded as a challenge to arrange for these refrains to contribute to the meaning of the poem in as succinct and poignant a manner as possible. Perhaps the best-known English rondeau is the World War I poem, In Flanders Fields by Canadian John McCrae:

 * In Flanders fields the poppies blow
 * Between the crosses, row on row,
 * That mark our place; and in the sky,
 * The larks, still bravely singing, fly,
 * Scarce heard amid the guns below.

 * We are the dead; short days ago
 * We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
 * Loved and were loved, and now we lie
 * In Flanders fields.

 * Take up our quarrel with the foe!
 * To you from failing hands we throw
 * The torch; be yours to hold it high!
 * If ye break faith with us who die
 * We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
 * In Flanders fields.

Rondeau redoublé
A more complex form is the rondeau redoublé. This is also written on two rhymes, but in five stanzas of four lines each and one of five lines. Each of the first four lines (stanza 1) get individually repeated in turn once by becoming successively the respective fourth lines of stanzas 2, 3, 4, & 5; and the first part of the first line is repeated as a short fifth line to conclude the sixth stanza. This can be represented as - A1,B1,A2,B2 - b,a,b,A1 - a,b,a,B1 - b,a,b,A2 - a,b,a,B2 - b,a,b,a,(A1).

The following example of the form was written from the point of view of one of the RAF officers carrying the coffin of Diana, Princess of Wales to the plane that was to carry it to England.

 * Guard of Honour
 * by Paul Hansford

 * The burden I bear is more heavy than lead.
 * The physical weight is a thing that I share,
 * but the loss that I feel will not leave my head.
 * Why did you have to die? Why is death so unfair?

 * I am close to you now. Yes, touching my hair
 * the flag with its lions of gold and of red
 * that wraps round your coffin. I know you are there.
 * The burden I bear is more heavy than lead.

 * My comrades move with me in slow, solemn tread.
 * Our eyes are all fixed in an unseeing stare.
 * Our shoulders support you in your oaken bed.
 * The physical weight is a thing that I share.

 * As I feel the world watching I try not to care.
 * My deepest emotions are best left unsaid.
 * Let others show grief like a garment they wear,
 * but the loss that I feel will not leave my head.

 * The flowers they leave like a carpet are spread,
 * In the books of remembrance they have written, "Somewhere
 * a star is extinguished because you are dead.
 * Why did you have to die? Why is death so unfair?"

 * The tears that we weep will soon grow more rare,
 * the rawness of grief turn to memory instead.
 * But deep in our hearts you will always be there,
 * and I ask, will I ever be able to shed
 * the burden I bear?

title: Rondeau (forme fixe)


text:
Băile Tușnad

Băile Tușnad (Tusnádfürdő, ) is a town in Harghita County, Romania in eastern Transylvania.

With a population of 1,372 (as of 2021), it is the smallest town in Romania by population. It is located at an altitude of 650 m in the southern reaches of the Ciuc depression, between the Harghita and Bodoc mountains, in the valley of the Olt River, and is to this day an important spa town. The town administers one village, Carpitus (Kárpitus).

History
The town and the surrounding area are famous for their spas and mineral waters received from seven springs. Nearby is the Lake Sfânta Ana, a famous volcanic crater lake, the only one of its kind in Romania.

The water has long been used for bathing by the Székely people. The most probable date for the founding of the bathing station is 1842. It was an alleged miraculous healing of the son of a shepherd from his rashes that first attracted widespread attention to the therapeutic properties of local mineral waters, after which a company was founded to develop the springs in 1845. The bathing station was destroyed in the skirmishes of 1849, but Austrian Emperor Franz Joseph, on visiting the town in 1852, ordered the reconstruction of the baths.

The rapid development of the town began after 1860. The Mikes-source was named in honour of count Benedek Mikes, chairman of the spa committee, who appointed a chemist at his own expense to analyse the water of the spring bearing his name. This marked the start of the scientific evaluation and utilisation of local mineral waters. The Stefánia Medical Center was opened in 1890 and remained the treatment center of the spa until 1975. Lake Csukás (now: Ciucaș) was artificially created in 1900, and the big hotels of the town were built in the 1970s.

The settlement was historically part of the Székely Land area of Transylvania and belonged to Csíkszék district until the administrative reform of Transylvania in 1876, when it fell within Csík County in the Kingdom of Hungary. In the aftermath of World War I, the Union of Transylvania with Romania was declared in December 1918. At the start of the Hungarian–Romanian War of 1918–1919, the town passed under Romanian administration. After the Treaty of Trianon of 1920, it became part of the Kingdom of Romania and fell within Ciuc County during the interwar period. In 1940, the Second Vienna Award granted Northern Transylvania to Hungary. Towards the end of World War II, Romanian and Soviet armies entered the town in October 1944. The territory of Northern Transylvania remained under Soviet military administration until March 9, 1945, after which it became again part of Romania. Between 1952 and 1960, Băile Tușnad fell within the Magyar Autonomous Region, and between 1960 and 1968 the Mureș-Magyar Autonomous Region. In 1968, the region was abolished, and since then, the commune, as a town, has been part of Harghita County.

Demographics
At the 2021 census, Băile Tușnad had a population of 1,372. At the 2011 census, the population was 1,617; the town had a Székely Hungarian majority with 1,460 (90.3%) Hungarians, and small communities of ethnic Romanians (6.9%) and Romani (2.6%).

Historical demographic data:

Demographic trends according to the censuses:

Therapeutic indications

 * Cardiovascular disease (post heart attack recovery, circulatory problems);
 * Valvular disease of the heart muscle, hypertension, circulatory problems);
 * Nervous system disorders (neurasthenia, neurovegetative dystonia, secondary asthenic conditions, physical and intellectual fatigue);
 * Digestive problems (stomach diseases, functional bowel disorders, chronic gastritis, enterocolitis, biliary dyskinesia);
 * Endocrine disorders (hyperthyroidism mild adrenal insufficiency, Basedow's disease);

Types of treatments

 * Spa with CO2, mofettes, galvanic baths, massage;
 * Paraffin, herbal baths, massage;
 * Magneto-diaflux, ionization medical gymnastics;
 * Internal treatment with mineral water, manual reflex massage;
 * Magnet therapy, soil treatment;

Elements of natural treatment

 * Carbonated mineral water, chlorine, sodium, bicarbonate;
 * Moffettes;
 * Subalpine tonic-stimulant bioclimate;

Composition of mineral water sources

 * Stănescu Spring: output of 405 L / h, T 7 °C, pH 6.2; naturally carbonated, with bicarbonate, sodium, calcium, magnesium;
 * Apor Spring: output of 7200 L / h, T 7 °C, pH 5.3; hypotonic, naturally carbonated, ferruginous, with chlorine, bicarbonate, sodium, calcium;
 * Mikes Spring: free output, T 14 °C, pH 5.6; hypotonic, naturally carbonated, mildly ferruginous, with chlorine, bicarbonate, sodium.

Twin towns – sister cities
Băile Tușnad is twinned with:
 * 🇭🇺 Balatonalmádi, Hungary
 * 🇭🇺 Bicske, Hungary
 * 🇭🇺 Csepel (Budapest), Hungary
 * 🇭🇺 Harkány, Hungary
 * 🇭🇺 Jánoshalma, Hungary
 * 🇭🇺 Orosháza, Hungary
 * 🇭🇺 Pestszentlőrinc-Pestszentimre (Budapest), Hungary

title: Băile Tușnad


text: User talk:207.69.137.29

title: User talk:207.69.137.29


text:
Talk:-mancy

VfD
On April 26, 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was merge/redirect. See Votes for deletion/-mancy for a record of the discussion. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 13:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:-mancy


text:
Disappearance of Johnny Gosch

John David Gosch (November 12, 1969 – disappeared September 5, 1982) was a paperboy in West Des Moines, Iowa, who disappeared between 6 and 7 a.m. on September 5, 1982. He is presumed to have been kidnapped. Gosch's picture was among the first to be featured on milk cartons as part of a campaign to find missing children. , there have been no arrests made and the case is now considered cold, but remains open.

His mother, Noreen Gosch, said that Johnny escaped from his captors and visited her with an unidentified man in 1997. She said that her son told her that he had been the victim of a pedophile organization and had been cast aside when he was too old but subsequently feared for his life and lived under an assumed identity, feeling it was not safe to return home.

Gosch's father, John, divorced from Noreen since 1993, has publicly stated that he is not sure whether such a visit actually occurred. Many have also speculated that the visit did occur, but it was someone else pretending to be Johnny. Authorities have not located Gosch or confirmed Noreen Gosch's account, and his fate continues to be the subject of speculation, conspiracy theories, and dispute.

The case received renewed publicity in 2006 when his mother said she had found photographs on her doorstep depicting Gosch in captivity. Some of the photos received were said to be children from a case in Florida, but one boy in the photos was never identified. Noreen Gosch insists that boy is Johnny.

Disappearance
On Sunday, September 5, 1982, in the suburb of West Des Moines, Johnny Gosch left home before dawn to begin his paper route. Although it was customary for Johnny to awaken his father to help with the route, the boy took only the family's miniature dachshund, Gretchen, with him that morning. Other paper carriers for The Des Moines Register would later report having seen Gosch at the paper drop, picking up his newspapers. It was the last sighting of Gosch that can be corroborated by multiple witnesses.

Another paperboy named Mike reported that he observed Gosch talking to a stocky man in a blue two-toned car near the paper drop; another witness, John Rossi, saw the man in the blue car talking to Gosch and "thought something was strange." Gosch told Rossi that the man was asking for directions and asked Rossi to help. Rossi looked at the license plate, but could not recall the plate number. He said, "I keep hoping I'll wake up in the middle of the night and see that number on the license plate as distinctly as night and day, but that hasn't happened." Rossi underwent hypnosis and told police some of the numbers and that the plate was from Warren County, Iowa. As Johnny walked a block north, where his route started, a paperboy noticed another man following Gosch. A neighbor heard a door slam, and saw a silver Ford Fairmont speed away northwards from where Johnny's wagon was found.

John and Noreen Gosch, Johnny's parents, began receiving phone calls from customers along their son's route, complaining of undelivered papers. John performed a cursory search of the neighborhood around 6 a.m. He immediately found Johnny's wagon full of newspapers two blocks from their home. The Gosches immediately contacted the West Des Moines police department, and reported Johnny's disappearance. Noreen, in her public statements and her book Why Johnny Can't Come Home, has been critical of what she perceives as a slow reaction time from authorities, and of the policy at the time that Gosch could not be classified as a missing person until 72 hours had passed. By her estimation, the police did not arrive to take her report for a full 45 minutes.

Initially, the police came to believe that Gosch was a runaway, but later they changed their statement and suggested that Gosch was kidnapped, but they were unable to establish a viable motive. They turned up little evidence and arrested no suspects in connection with the case. A few months after his September 1982 disappearance, Noreen Gosch has said her son was spotted in Tulsa, Oklahoma, when a boy yelled to a woman for help before being dragged off by two men. Over the years, several private investigators have assisted the Gosches with the search for their son. Among them are Jim Rothstein, a retired New York City police detective and Ted Gunderson, a retired chief of the Los Angeles FBI branch. In 1984, Gosch's photograph appeared alongside that of another Des Moines Register paperboy, Eugene Martin, who had gone missing that year, on milk cartons produced by the Des Moines–based Anderson Erickson Dairy. Gosch was among the first missing children who had their plights publicized in this way.

Potentially linked cases
On August 12, 1984, Eugene Martin, another Des Moines-area paperboy, disappeared under similar circumstances. He went missing while delivering newspapers on the south side of Des Moines.

On March 29, 1986, the day before Easter, then-13-year-old Marc James Warren Allen told his mother he was going to walk to a friend's house down the street. He never arrived at the friend's house and has not been seen since. Media reports initially described Allen as the third Iowa paperboy to go missing in the 1980s, but a detailed piece about Iowa's missing people that appeared in The Des Moines Register on August 18, 2013, claimed that he was not a paperboy in Des Moines. However, Marc Allen's brother would later confirm that he was indeed a paperboy, but not on a route at the time of his disappearance.

Authorities were unable to prove a connection between the three cases, yet Noreen Gosch says that she was personally informed of the abduction of Eugene Martin a few months in advance by a private investigator who was searching for her son. She was told the kidnapping "would take place the second weekend in August 1984 and it would be a paperboy from the southside of Des Moines."

Fraud by wire case
In 1985, Noreen Gosch received a letter from Robert Herman Meier II, 19, of Saginaw, Michigan. The letter had been signed "Samuel Forbes Dakota". In the letter, Meier stated that he was a guard in a motorcycle club when Gosch's son disappeared in September 1982. According to Meier, Gosch's son was taken as part of a large child-slavery ring operated by the club. According to the FBI, Meier requested from and received $11,000 (about $32,000 in 2023) from the Gosches. Meier additionally requested $100,000 (about $285,000 in 2023) more along with a promise to return their son.

Meier was arrested in Buffalo at the Canadian border by FBI agents, and was later charged with fraud by wire. The letter Meier wrote had stated that Gosch's son was sold to a man whom Meier identified as a "high-level drug dealer residing in Mexico City." Despite the accusation of fraud, Noreen Gosch reportedly believed Meier at his word, and later criticized the FBI, stating that the arrest warrant against Meier destroyed her and her husband John's credibility with anyone who would take the couple's offer to pay ransom for their boy.

Noreen Gosch's account
According to Noreen Gosch, one morning in March 1997 she was awakened around 2:30 a.m. by a knock at her apartment door. Waiting outside was Johnny Gosch, now 27, accompanied by an unidentified man. Gosch said she immediately recognized her son, who opened his shirt to reveal a birthmark on his chest. "We talked about an hour or an hour and a half. He was with another man, but I have no idea who the person was. Johnny would look over to the other person for approval to speak," says Gosch. "He didn't say where he is living or where he was going." In a 2005 interview, Gosch said, "The night that he came here, he was wearing jeans and a shirt and had a coat on because it was March. It was cold and his hair was long; it was shoulder-length and it was straight and dyed black." After the visit, she had the FBI create a picture she says looked like Johnny. Gosch self-published a book in 2000 titled Why Johnny Can't Come Home. The book presents her understanding of what her son went through, based on the original research of various private investigators and her son's visit.

On September 1, 2006, Gosch reported that she found photographs left at her front door, some of which she posted on her website. One color photo shows three boys bound and gagged. She says that a black-and-white photo appears to show 12-year-old Johnny Gosch with his mouth gagged, his hands and feet tied, and an apparent human brand on his shoulder. A third photo shows a man, possibly dead, who may have something tied around his neck. Noreen Gosch stated that the man was one of the "perpetrators who molested [my] son". Gosch later said the first two photos had originated on a website featuring child pornography. On September 13, an anonymous letter was mailed to Des Moines police.

Gentlemen, Someone has played a reprehensible joke on a grieving mother. The photo in question is not one of her son but of three boys in Tampa, Florida about 1979–80, challenging each other to an escape contest. There was an investigation concerning that picture, made by the Hillsborough County (FL) Sheriff's Office. No charges were filed, and no wrongdoing was established. The lead detective on the case was named Zalva. This allegation should be easy enough to check out.

Nelson Zalva, who worked for the Hillsborough County, Florida Sheriff's Office in the 1970s, said the details of the letter were true and adds that he also investigated the black-and-white in "1978 or 1979", before Gosch's disappearance. "I interviewed the kids, and they said there was no coercion or touching. ... I could never prove a crime," Zalva says. When asked for proof that this was indeed the same photo from the investigation nearly three decades prior, Zalva could not provide any. According to the documentary film Who Took Johnny (2014), only three boys in the pictures were identified by law enforcement, but not the one thought to be Johnny. Noreen Gosch still believes the pictures to be of her son.

In 1989, 21-year-old Paul A. Bonacci told his attorney John DeCamp that he had been abducted into a sex ring with Gosch as a teenager and was forced to participate in Gosch's kidnapping. John DeCamp met with Bonacci and believed he was telling the truth. Noreen later met him and said he told her things "he could know only from talking with her son." He said that Johnny had a birthmark on his chest, a scar on his tongue and a burn scar on his lower leg; although a description of the birthmark had been widely circulated, information about the scars had not been made public. Bonacci also described a stammer that Johnny had when he was upset. The FBI and local police do not believe that Bonacci is a credible witness in the case and have not interviewed him. His siblings told police Bonacci was at home when Gosch was abducted. In 2023, Bonacci claimed to know about Johnny Gosch's 1997 visit to his mother, and also stated that Gosch had visited him several times.

National interest
The case generated national interest as Noreen Gosch became increasingly vocal about the inadequacy of law enforcement's investigation of missing children cases. She established the Johnny Gosch Foundation in 1982, through which she visited schools and spoke at seminars about the modus operandi of sexual predators. She lobbied for "The Johnny Gosch Bill", state legislation which would mandate an immediate police response to reports of missing children. The bill became law in Iowa in 1984, and similar or identical laws were later passed in Missouri and seven other states.

In August 1984, Noreen Gosch testified in Senate hearings on organized crime, speaking about "organized pedophilia" and its presumed role in her son's abduction; according to her, she began receiving death threats. Gosch also testified before the U.S. Department of Justice, which provided $10 million to establish the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Gosch was invited to the White House by President Ronald Reagan for the dedication ceremony.

Documentary film
In 2014, a documentary titled Who Took Johnny was released. The film includes interviews with Gosch's parents.

title: Disappearance of Johnny Gosch


text:
User talk:Overand

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
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Actual Conversation
I'll leave the newbieish thing up there, useful links. So if you want to add anything, just feel free.

merger
hi overand, i've proposed a merger of Serotonergic psychedelics and psychedelic drug as they seem to be on the exact same thing. your treatment of the topic is excellent, imo, and there's plenty of info in there that isn't in psychedelic drug, but as they seem to be on the exact same class of drugs i'm not sure that two seperate articles are warranted. But i've been wrong about plenty of things in life, so your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated at the psychedelic drug talk page. Thanks alot! (btw, have you checked out WikiProject Psychedelics, Dissociatives and Deliriants? you may be interested.) --Heah talk 23:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

subst
When using template tags on talk pages, don't forget to substitute with text by adding subst: to the template tag. For example, use {{subst:test}} instead of {{test}}. This reduces server load and prevents accidental blanking of the template. Thanks!  howch e  ng   {chat} 22:57, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Overand
Your name is a reference to an Autechre song, correct? Fuzzform 15:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it isn't. --Overand 15:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

New Wiki
Hello. I notice you have a depression userbox on your user page. I'm working on a new wiki for people with depression over at Wikicities (a project started by Jimbo and Angela). The idea is to create the ultimate resource for people affected by depression, with information on medication, therapies, helpful organisations and a lot more. I wonder if you would be interested in contributing to it? It's very young at the moment, but if we can build a community over there it should get off the ground. If you'd like to look it over, it's at http://depression.wikicities.com. I would be great if you would give it a glance. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 12:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Responce from Snowthrower
I just noticed your message on my Wiki talk page, I actually use Arturia Minimoog V software connected to a Midi keyboard. Oh man would I love to own a Minimoog :) --Snowthrower

legging
Your comments at Articles for deletion/Ferret legging would be welcomed. -- RHaworth 11:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:GURPSPlanetofAdventure.jpg)
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Wow!
My left I never looked better, thanks so much for the modification! :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 19:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

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User talk:Alison/Demisexuality
I'd be delighted to have others working away at it. Feel free to edit/copy/move/whatever. Also, I'm delighted to see a fellow-modular aficionado here on WP :) - A l is o n  ❤ 18:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

GURPS
You might be interested in this thread given your past activity in the subject area. BOZ (talk) 05:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

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Chrysler_Building_by_David_Shankbone_Retouched
Dear Overand,

I am a Prof. in Architectureand I am currently redacting a book titled “History of Interior Design and Furniture” and it will be published in Turkish edition. I would like to use your image from https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chrysler_Building_by_David_Shankbone_Retouched.jpg.’ Do you prefer us to use your nick name in Wikipedia, or we can use your proper name if you prefer.

Best regards, Mustafa Demirkan mustafaemindemirkan@gmail.com --Serhatakbak (talk) 22:05, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Nomination of Skoolies for deletion
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title: User talk:Overand


text:
Talk:Plebe

VfD
On May 19, 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was redirect. See Votes for deletion/ for a record of the discussion. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 01:07, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Plebe


text: Talk:Prurience

title: Talk:Prurience


text:
Margot Frank

Margot Betti Frank (16 February 1926 – c. February or March 1945) was the elder daughter of Otto Frank and Edith Frank and the elder sister of Anne Frank. Margot's deportation order from the Gestapo hastened the Frank family into hiding. According to the diary of her younger sister, Anne, Margot kept a diary of her own, but no trace of it has ever been found. She died in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp from a typhus outbreak.

Early life and education
Margot Betti Frank, named after her maternal aunt Bettina Holländer (1898–1914), was born in Frankfurt and lived in the outer suburbs of the city with her parents, Otto Frank and Edith Frank-Holländer, and also her younger sister Anne Frank. Edith and Otto were devoted parents who were interested in scholarly pursuits and had an extensive library; they encouraged the children to read. At the time her sister Anne was born, the family lived in a house at Marbachweg 307 in Frankfurt-Dornbusch, where they rented two floors. Margot and Anne played almost every day in the garden with the children of the neighborhood. They all had different backgrounds; Catholic, Protestant or Jewish. They shared a curiosity about each other's religious holidays. Margot was invited to the communion celebration of one of her friends, and the neighbors' children were sometimes invited to the Frank's celebration of Hanukkah. In 1931, the family moved to Ganghoferstrasse 24 in a fashionable liberal area of Dornbusch called the Dichterviertel (Poets' Quarter). Both houses still exist.

In the summer of 1932, the Nazis' paramilitary wing – Sturmabteilung (SA) – had marched through the streets of Frankfurt am Main wearing swastika armbands. These Brownshirts, as they were called because of the color of their uniforms, loudly sang: "When Jewish blood spurts from the knife, things will go well again". Upon hearing this, Anne's parents Edith and Otto discussed their concerns with each other. It was impossible for them to leave their homeland immediately because making a living abroad seemed incomprehensible.

Margot attended the Ludwig-Richter School in Frankfurt until the appointment of Adolf Hitler on January 30 of 1933, to the position of chancellor in Germany. His rise to power brought about an increase of anti-Jewish measures, among which was the expulsion of Jewish schoolchildren from non-denominational schools. In response to the rising tide of Antisemitism, the family decided to follow the 63,000 other Jews who had left Germany that year and immigrate to Amsterdam in the Netherlands. Edith Frank and her daughters moved in with her mother in Aachen in the summer of 1933, while Otto Frank started his company Opekta in Amsterdam. Edith travelled back and forth between Aachen and Amsterdam in order to find accommodation in the Dutch capital. Margot moved to Amsterdam in December 1933, followed by Anne in February 1934. Margot was enrolled in an elementary school on Amsterdam's Jekerstraat, close to their new address on Merwedeplein, in the southern part of Amsterdam. Despite initial problems with the Dutch language, Margot became a star pupil. She achieved excellent academic results.

German occupation
German armies invaded the Netherlands on 10 May 1940. Although the first anti-Jewish measures soon took effect, Margot and her sister were not immediately affected. But that changed in 1941, when they were no longer allowed to go to the cinema and were excluded from their sports clubs. Jewish children were no longer allowed to attend the school of their choice. After the summer of 1941, Margot and her sister had to attend a Jewish school with only Jewish students and teachers.

At the Jewish Lyceum, Margot displayed the studiousness and intelligence which had made her excel at her previous schools, and was remembered by former pupils as virtuous, reserved, and very obedient. Margot had a large circle of friends and enjoyed rowing and playing tennis in her spare time. In her diary, Anne recounted instances of their mother suggesting she emulate Margot, and although she wrote of admiring her sister in some respects for being handsome and clever, Anne sought to define her own individuality without role models. Margot is also shown to have a much better relationship with their mother, and had a much more modest and tolerant nature as opposed to Anne, who was determined and often spoke her mind.

Although her sister Anne also took Hebrew classes at a later point, Anne was, like her father, not as much interested in the Jewish tradition as Margot. Margot followed the example of her mother, who became involved in Amsterdam's Liberal Jewish community. She took Hebrew classes, attended synagogue, and in 1941 joined a Dutch Zionist club for young people who wanted to immigrate to Palestine to found a Jewish state, where, as Anne Frank described in her diary, she wished to become a midwife.

In the summer of 1942, the systematic deportation of Jews from the Netherlands started. On 5 July 1942, Margot received a notice to report to a labor camp in Germany and the next day went into hiding with her family in the secret annex of her father's company on Prinsengracht, in the city center of Amsterdam. They were later joined by four other Jewish refugees (Hermann, Auguste and Peter van Pels and Fritz Pfeffer) and remained hidden for two years until they were discovered on 4 August 1944.

Life in hiding
Margot was sixteen years old when she went into hiding. At first she shared a bedroom with Anne, but when Fritz Pfeffer moved in to the Secret Annex in November 1942, Margot slept in her parents' bedroom. Margot Frank and her family were only able to live in hiding because four office workers from her father's company were willing to take care of them at the risk of their own lives. The helpers were Miep Gies, Bep Voskuijl, Johannes Kleiman and Victor Kugler. There were strict rules so that the employees in the warehouse, visitors to the company and neighbours would not notice nor suspect the eight people in hiding in the Secret Annex. Margot and the other people in hiding had to be completely silent during working hours and were not able to use any water. During the day, Margot read a lot and like Anne and Peter, she spent much time studying. Margot took a correspondence course in Latin, not under her own name, but under the name of Bep Voskuijl, one of the helpers. Early in her diary, Anne states that Margot also has a diary.

Arrest and death
Along with the other occupants of the annex, Margot Frank was arrested by the Sicherheitsdienst on 4 August 1944, and detained in the RSHA headquarters overnight before being taken to a cell in a nearby prison for three days. According to Victor Kugler, while being arrested, Margot was weeping silently.

From here they were taken by train, on 8 August, to the Dutch Westerbork transit camp. As the Frank family had failed to respond to Margot's call-up notice in 1942 and had been discovered in hiding, they (along with Fritz Pfeffer and the van Pels family) were declared criminals by the camp's officials and detained in its punishment block to be sentenced to hard labor in the battery dismantling plant. They remained there until they were selected for Westerbork's last deportation to Auschwitz on 3 September 1944. Bloeme Evers-Emden, an Amsterdam native who had known Margot and Anne from the Jewish Lyceum, recalled that Margot and Edith were selected for a transport to the Liebau labor camp in Upper Silesia, but Anne was prohibited from joining because she had developed scabies; Margot and Edith opted to stay behind with Anne and Bloeme went on without them. Another selection forcibly separated Edith from her daughters when on 30 October, Margot and Anne were transferred to the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. Left behind, Edith died in Auschwitz on 6 January 1945.

Margot Frank died in February or March of 1945 at the age of 19 from typhus; Anne succumbed to the same disease a day or two later. Janny Brandes-Brilleslijper and her sister Lientje buried them together in one of Bergen-Belsen's mass graves; in July 1945, once Janny came back to the Netherlands and recovered from typhus, she wrote to Otto Frank and informed him that both of his daughters had died.

In a documentary, Janny Brandes-Brilleslijper said:

"“First, Margot had fallen out of bed onto the stone floor,”... “She couldn’t get up anymore. Anne died a day later. Three days before her death from typhus was when she had thrown away all of her clothes during dreadful hallucinations. That happened just before the liberation,”"

Otto Frank was the only person to survive out of the eight people who went into hiding. When he returned to Amsterdam in June 1945 he was given Anne's diaries by Miep Gies (who had saved parts of them, just like the younger secretary Bep Voskuijl), which he published in 1947 as a remembrance to her. Along with Anne, Margot Frank also wrote a diary during their time in hiding (Anne mentioned her sister's diary in her own) but Margot's diary was never found. However, many authors wrote fan-based diaries of Margot such as the novel The Silent Sister by Mazal Alouf-Mizrahi. Letters written by both Frank sisters to American pen pals were published in 2003. Buddy Elias (1925–2015) was Margot's and Anne's first cousin and last surviving close relative.

title: Margot Frank


text:
Talk:Screwed the Pooch

Poker game
shouldn't an error be noted about the poker game? Peter says they are playing texas holdem yet when ted turner and carter pewterschmidt are head to head they both show 5 cards, which obviously doesn't happen in texas holdem Hjdods 10:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Cigar reference
I just watched that scene, where Peter and Carter are smoking cigars at the race. If the cigar glow is a reference to the no-smoking sign, that has got to be the most obscure reference I've ever seen. It doesn't even look like the no-smoking sign, it's just a red glow and 2 dots. I'm removing it from the cultural references section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sc4Freak (talk • contribs) 11:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

Price is Right note
Is the "Price is Right" note really necessary? The producers would have done some research on it, so I don't really see why it should be on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.5.200.68 (talk) 22:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't follow you. Are you saying he does not trip into the set of The Price is Right after all? I'm not from the US myself, so I'm not familiar with the show. --GSchjetne (talk) 02:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not certain I understand either, but 2007-10-20T21:41:10 is the revision to which the anon would have been referring. The Price is Right is the correct reference. Not sure if the wheel was numbered correctly myself — that may have been WP:OR. The Showcase Showdown (The Price Is Right) article is surprisingly detailed. / edg ☺ ☭ 03:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Screwed the Pooch


text:
Talk:Sister-in-law

Sister's wife
I'm concerned that "sibling's wife" may have been changed to "brother's wife" by someone who disapproves of gay marriage. I've changed it back since, like it or not, gay marriage is legal in many countries and several US states, and the definition of this term must allow for that. 12.45.255.66 (talk) 19:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

 * It appears that your concerns are not valid. In fact, it appears that just the opposite is true as both sources that were used for the article state "brother's wife". Steevo714 (talk) 23:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I would say that the concerns are absolutely valid. Now we have to ask what to do when sources are wrong. Clearly a woman can marry another woman and a man can marry a man so a a more general definition is necessary.  But it's true that we need sources. J IM ptalk·cont 09:53, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Sibling's spouse's sister
Does a sibling's spouse's sister count? (My sister has married a man whose sister is Erica. Is Erica my sister-in-law?) 71.48.61.43 (talk) 03:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The example on the page
"Example: Rob and Neil are brothers. Gwyneth is Rob's wife. Claire is Neil's wife. Therefore, Gwyneth is Neil's sister-in-law, Claire is Rob's sister-in-law and Gwyneth and Claire are sisters-in-law to one another."

Would Gwyneth and Claire be co-sisters-in-law, to be more precise? --jftsang 08:35, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Pleae note In-Laws only works one way and to one level away from you on you marraige side! My Father-in-law and my Mother-in-law are my spouses parents, and my spouses siblings are my brothers or sisters-in-laws. It also does not apply to my siblings spouses. E.g. My brothers wife is my brothers wife, nothing else, I am her Brother-in-law but she is not my Sister-in-law, my Sister-in-law is my wifes sister.

But my Brother-in-laws wife is NOT my Sister-in-law and my Sister-in-laws husband is NOT my brother-in-law, they are my Brother-in-laws wife and my Sister-in-Laws husband respectively and should be referred to as so. Otherwise my Brother-in-laws wifes parents would be my parents-in-law too. It has only become common place for people to so refer to their Sister or Brother in-laws spouses as Sister-in-law or Brother-in-law as it is easier to say that than explain exactly who they are in relation to them. It's a common misconception.

Motley's Crew?
added the Motley's Crew example, I don't see how it is relevant to the article, so I removed it. Two highly notable examples (Bible and Harry Potter related) are already enough. But even if they were not enough, I don't think Motley's Crew is "notable" or "famous" enough. User GVnayR is clearly trying desperately to "promote" Motley's Crew. --92.250.123.108 (talk) 10:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sister-in-law