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Talk:Switzerland/Archive 3

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Archived straw poll + discussion on the Zurich/Zürich Nobbie 12:46, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Straw poll on name of the article
Please do not vote any longer — this poll has been a dead horse for a long time. Rather, go to Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_%28use_English%29 to discuss policy. dab 08:54, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * This poll is not a dead horse. If you prefer the English spelling of Zurich then please disregard the above plea and your vote to the Zurich list. But please add any comments to the Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions (use_English) page. Philip Baird Shearer 11:50, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * So I can still vote in the poll, but only if I prefer the spelling without the diacritical? BlankVerse

see:Dispute resolution "Note that informal straw polls can be held at any time if there are enough participants in the discussion, but publicizing the survey can get more of the community involved and increase the weight given to the results."

To simplifiy things and stop moving it back and forth, let's place it where it's to go according to the votes below. I take the liberty to fill in the one of Wik. -- User:Docu Please sign with #~ Feel free to add more naming proposals Please add comments in the comments section not in the Votes section.

 * Zurich - preferred by Google and the Swiss government, the city of Zurich.
 * User:Docu - If it's to be in German, use Zürich, if it's to be in English, use Zurich.
 * Lupo
 * PatriceNeff - The official English Web site uses Zurich. I also contacted the presidial departement (Präsidialdepartement, see ) and the lady there told me that the official way of writing it is Zurich. So I think we should go with this.
 * Seth Ilys - Titles in the English Wikipedia should use only English characters (i.e. no diacritics). Use of the diacritic in the body should follow standard scholarly usage.
 * Ruhrjung 13:30, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) - The titles of wikipedia pages should, as far as possible, be in ASCII. In the wikipedia article, correct use of non-ASCII characters should be encouraged but not required. For an example in another language, see for instance: Motlawa
 * Irmgard 17:51, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC) Being myself from Zurich, I don't think I ever used Zürich in English.
 * webkid 22:29, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC) If we use Zürich instead of Zurich, this would mean that we have to rename all the titles of articles about geography into their native language. For example, Russia would become ??????, Romania - România, etc.
 * Dmn 22:16, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC) If its good enough for the swiss government, its good enough for me
 * pne 08:15, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC) - what Docu said. I consider "Zurich" to be the English name of the city, much like "Munich" for "München", or "Lisbon" for "Lisboa".
 * Corti - I prefer Zurich and I would use Zürich on the German page. I agree with webkid we should keep the English version in English.
 * Philip Baird Shearer
 * Gady 19:33, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Proteus (Talk) 21:55, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Noel This is a) the usual English spelling (and this is the English Wikipedia), and b) it's what the Zurich government recommends. Ye deities, why are we even having this debate? Yes, absolutely the article ought to give the original (with umlaut) in the opening sentence, so we do educate people. However, thereafter use the English spelling.
 * Tobias Conradi 10:15, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC) This is english wikipedia. english alphabet has no diacritics. Local spelling would mean to write article names of chinese cities in chinese language. Have a look at vietnamese cities :-) How will you vote than? Of course show the local version in the first line.
 * Nobbie 16:17, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) - If there's an English name, use it.

 * Zürich - the spelling in the local language
 * User:Wik
 * User:Maximus Rex
 * User:Zundark (for reasons, see my comment in Talk:Switzerland/Archive_2)
 * Guillermo3, but with a redirect from Zurich
 * User:Nico
 * Mikez 21:28, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC) agrees with Guillermo, use the native form afap, there will always be redirects.
 * user:Zanimum http://www.zh.ch/, the official site for the canton, uses this spelling, we should too
 * (Do the English versions really? See -- User:Docu)
 * The site of the city is in German only. Kokiri 20:19, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * The link above was moved (it was in English). Now (March 2005), there is  using mainly "Zurich". -- User:Docu
 * with a redirect from the non-umlaut version. Secretlondon 19:04, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)
 * me too, says Stw
 * Optim
 * Ryan_Cable
 * Lirath Q. Pynnor
 * Denni 05:00, 2004 May 4 (UTC) Zürich without umlaut just looks weird.
 * To some people, it looks wierd with. Noel (talk) 17:59, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * ✏ Sverdrup 01:52, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Improv 04:46, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * BlankVerse Zürich is more accurate, which should be the primary consideration for an encyclopedia. Redirects are cheap, so whether someone types in Zürich, Zurich, Zuerich, or Züri, they still end up at the same article.

 * Zurich or Zürich: Any spelling, as long as it is consistent throughout Wikipedia.
 * —Eloquence (added by Kokiri, see contribution above)
 * UtherSRG - I suppose this is a hedge bet. Zürich is what I think is what is correct, but what is 'wiki-best' is what should be used.
 * Kokiri 15:31, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC) - because this is realistic.
 * chris_73 09:54, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC) Although being native German, Zurich is fine for me in english.

 * Zuerich

 * Zueri

 * Züri
 * Kokiri 15:31, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC).

 * Zuri

Comments on straw poll
I thought Zurich was the English spelling. Here on Wikipedia, however, many seem to prefer the local name of a place. The publications I get from my government use Zurich, both from the federal government and the canton (the city doesn't send stuff in English). However, is the spelling up to the government? Kokiri 20:19, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Seems to me that any government has a lot to say about the name they would like to have for their city. The job of an cyclopedia is to note the facts and not to discuss whether this is a good or bad solution. If the city of Zurich officially uses the name without umlauts it seems that we should just use that notation. Additionally you note that the federal government and the canton use Zurich. So does the city on the Web sites. This seems to be pretty consistent. Of course we could add a paragraph stating that the Swiss people don't actually like this solution (or so it seems). Hope this helps -- Patrice Neff 13:12, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Seems to me there's actually two different things here: As to (1): I don't care whether it's Zurich or Zürich, as long both exist and one redirects to the other. One should be able to find it either way. As to (2), I prefer "Zurich" (no Umlaut). With the Umlaut, it looks awfully strange, and "Zürich" is pronounced differently. I doubt any English-speaking person would pronounce it in German. Also: what about Milan/Milano? Results dropping the final "o" in a proper English name? If so, why doesn't dropping the Umlaut? Whatever solution is adopted, the articles Canton of Zurich, ETH Zurich, University of Zurich, and Cabaret Voltaire (Zurich) should follow suit. Maybe we should settle on the Swiss German "Tsüri"... (just kidding :-) Lupo 11:21, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) Where to place the page on Zurich, and
 * 2) how to spell the name "Zurich" in other articles.

 * University of Zurich, ETH Zurich, and Zurich International Airport spell it that way, so they should remain that way. Canton of Zurich and Cabaret Voltaire (Zurich) should obviously follow. -- User:Docu

 * It ain't that simple. The article is located at ETH Zurich and originally used the spelling Zurich consistently. However, sombody changed all occurrences of "Zurich" in the text to "Zürich", with the result that the article is now inconsistent: it sometimes uses "ETH Zurich", but also "ETH Zürich". And the same mess is in Zurich International Airport: its first sentence reads Zurich International Airport, also called Kloten International Airport, is located in Zürich, Switzerland. I'd say these cases argue for using the spelling Zurich. Lupo 08:38, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually, I referred to the institutions themselves, not the articles about them. -- User:Docu

 * English-language references generally give Zürich with an umlaut and Milan without an o. Ours not to reason why. (By the way, if you read Docu's comment above the vote, it's clear that the vote is about where the article should go. Kokiri's vote is essentially an abstention, as it doesn't address the issue being voted on.) --Zundark 13:52, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Agreed, we don't have to reason about why other encyclopedias chose a particular spelling. But I think it is valid to argue about what this encyclopedia shall use. Lupo 08:38, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Lupo, I don't think many can pronounce Zürich or Zurich properly, regardless the umlauts. BTW, if we settle fot the local word, then we might spell it like the locals: Züri (no votes so far). Kokiri 17:03, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Zundark, what are we voting on? (the correct spelling?) Whatever we decide, we can't stop people from using the two different spellings that are already used. Maybe because of whom I am I should care about it... but I don't. I only thought it'd be nice to have a consistent spelling throughout WP. Kokiri 10:20, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * We are voting on the title of this article. You are right that we can't stop people from using both spellings (neither of which is really wrong) - so trying to force a consistent spelling throughout Wikipedia would be a waste of time and would risk pointless edit wars. --Zundark 12:56, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Did the discussion stall? I can't see any consensus (yet). Kokiri 18:18, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * For consistency I moved Canton of Zurich to Canton of Zürich. As the vote is currently (4):(7+3), I'd support Zürich. When more vote or some change their minds, we could move it to Zurich. Anyways .. if there is no consensus should it be where it was initially (Zurich) or here where it is "now" (Zürich)? -- User:Docu

 * Maybe it helped if everyone stated their reasons. I think there is now quite some information on this (talk) page to help make up minds. Kokiri 17:00, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Impact on naming convention of places
If the votes continue this way, we will decide in favour of the local language, against the most common use (Google; governments). This is fine with me (I couldn't care that much about two dots), but how does this affect the naming convention (Milan rather than Milano)? Kokiri 21:32, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * It doesn't. Most common use doesn't include ignorance of diacritics. --Wik 21:37, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * What about the governments? What about that many people from Switzerland also use Zurich, depite most definitely not being ignorant of umlauts. --Kokiri 22:27, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * For the same reason the city of Braunschweig has an English webpage that uses the archaic "Brunswick" - written by Germans who are obviously unaware that English speakers themselves hardly use that any more. It's a misguided attempt to accommodate English speakers. --Wik 23:09, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * Doesn't this call for an update in the MoS (naming conventions)? What's the difference between Zurich and Milan? Also, is it our job on Wikipedia to decide who is misguided? I thought we reflect what is used... --Kokiri 23:41, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * The difference is that Milan is obviously a different, specifically English name of Milano, while Zurich is just Zürich without the umlaut, and we do use diacritics, otherwise we would have to move a lot of other articles besides Zürich ("Sao Tome" is also more common on Google than "São Tomé", still it's not an "English name"). --Wik 23:55, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * I follow your argument about the umlauts. I'm more concerned about a misguided attempt to accommodate English speakers, since the governments of Zurich explicitly use the version without the umlauts, and so seem quite a few other well-known institutions (ETH, university, airport). The version with umlauts is used by the tourist board . Are all the other institutions misguided? --Kokiri 09:20, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes. It can be assumed that the people of Zürich would rather have their local name used internationally, why would they want to drop the umlaut themselves? They just do it because they try to be accommodating to what they believe is "the English name". If they continue doing this, it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy of course, and in the end it becomes the English name as even more and more of those English speakers who are prepared to use umlauts drop them just because the city itself is not using them. It's like one of those situations where two people do something that neither of them really wants, each believing the other wants it and trying to please the other. But we are not quite at that point yet. The Britannica for example makes no mention of "Zurich". --Wik 14:39, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

 * There is a tendency to use local language names even in English, after all for many you are more likely to find those on maps (e.g. use Kiental rather than "Kien Valley" as ), but an article on Munich, would be at Munich.

 * BTW "São Tomé and Príncipe" would that be in English "Saint Thomas and Prince"? -- User:Docu

 * That would be the literal translation, but it's not used. --Wik 14:39, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

 * Wik, I've been thinking a bit about what you wrote (two sides believing to accomodate one another)... and I changed my vote. I'm not sure, however, if we can know the reasons of people using one or the other version. I think we should decide on one spelling, mention the alternative (as an equal), and then use the one spelling consequently. I don't think we should change the actual name of any institution, but I don't see anything wrong with ETH Zurich is a university in Zürich or vice versa. My Britannica  has the article under Zurich, but spells the town Zürich in the article; I see the online version differs in that it uses Zürich for the title, too.

 * Coming back to the MoS, shouldn't this be adapted to be more flexible towards the use of local spellings? But then, heck, we've got redirects. --Kokiri 15:31, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

In General
"Zurich" is nothing more than "Zürich" without the umlaut. It is not a separate "English" name. Otherwise we could do the same for every place name with diacritics - strip the diacritics off, and call it an "English" name, e.g. "São Tomé and Príncipe (English: Sao Tome and Principe)", but that's obviously nonsense. --Wik 19:06, Sep 6, 2003 (UTC)
 * I disagree one simple rule; "Strip of the diacritics unless commonly used in English."
 * Sao Tome Principe (Portuguese:São Tomé and Príncipe) ...some where in the text "São Tomé and Príncipe" literally translated into English is "Saint Thomas and Prince" but this is never used. Philip Baird Shearer 11:59, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * It just usually spelled that way in English .. whatever solution you pick, please fix the redirects. -- User:Docu

 * The practice of ignoring foreign diacritics is widespread in English (Zürich is in no way special in this regard), but it is not Wikipedia practice. I don't see what your problem with redirects is. Zurich redirects to Zürich, so any link to Zurich will arrive at Zürich. --Wik 19:42, Sep 6, 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't think it's just a diacritics question, but I don't really care. As for the "my" problem with double-redirects, please check Redirect -- User:Docu

Tricky case. The umlaut-free variant is common, but academic publications seem to prefer the correct one. Both Britannica and Columbia Encyc. refer to it as Zürich. Whatever is used, the spelling should be consistent throughout the article, which it presently is not. Take Munich and Lübeck as examples for non-native / native name articles.—Eloquence

 * The standard spelling of Zürich in English is Zurich. It is not a literal translation of Zürich, if it was then the spelling would be Zuerich. Any article should be under Zurich and not Zürich just as Cologne should be in the English Wikipedia and not Köln. To place the page at its common name is standard Wiki. In this case there is a an additional major reason for doing so which is practicality. English keyboards do not have umlaut keys. If an English typing person uses a search engine searching for Zurich then the chances are they would not know how to find an "ü" if the word is Zürich. This is not just about searching on redirects it is also about searching on content. It is also a pain when writing articles for example, I have had to cut and past the "ü" in this text, and unmodified English spelling checkers will flag Zürich as an error.  Now I know that there are work arounds for all these points, but if Zurich is used then the work arounds are not needed Philip Baird Shearer 15:19, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * true... wait, true in 1911 maybe, or in 1950. The spelling Zurich was mainly due to typographical restrictions, and of course laziness. See also Heavy metal umlaut. Now it seems that more precise transliterations are gaining ground in English usage. It seems Qur'an is now preferred over Quran or even Koran. We see more instances of Muslim (vs. Moslem) etc. Of course some names are more entrenched than others (Milan, Cologne), and we have to argue on a case by case basis. It is well possible, however, that while

the spelling Zürich was virtually unheard of in English 20 years ago, it is now on its way to become standard. This is also reflected by the fact that the search engine collapses "ü" and "ue" now. dab 15:46, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I think you are "confused". The default behaviour of Google.co.uk is not to do what you say. So which search engines are you refering to?
 * Google.co.uk:Zurich returns 4,370,000; in English only it returns 2,290,000; site:uk  returns 254,000
 * Google.co.uk Zeurich returns 756,000; English sites only and the number drops to 108,000; site:uk "did not match any documents"
 * Google Zürich returns 6,510,000 But it returns German language sites first; ask it to return English only sites and the number drops to 1,380,000; For Zürich site:uk 22,800

 * So the best way to get English pages on "Zurich" is to search Google with "Zurich" and not Zuerich or Zürich. As for it becomming a standard there are 10 times a many sites in the UK with Zurich than Zürich. For Oz and Kiwi lands it is even less of a standard: site:au 33,000:1,950 site:nz  3,340:467. -- Philip Baird Shearer 18:11, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * very strange. Your very links for me return 2,400,000, 2,600,000 and 2,440,000 hits respectively. Can it be that Google collapses the "ue" for me because it decides I am located in Switzerland? Anyway, I'm not saying the umlauted variant is more widespread in English. I'm just saying it went from zero to some use, mostly in more educated contexts, and is perfectly admissible in an encyclopedia (my favorite example: on WP, the quran is called Qur'an. Also because it is more correct, not more widespread). dab 12:54, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Google probably does "know" that you are in Switzerland. The point of the Google search is that most English speaking people would put in Zurich and the pages returned are a mixture of English and German even without screening by language, but Zürich returns with lots of German pages so most English speaking people who do not speak German would not use it. I think that English version of Wikipedia should follow the convention of what is most common for English speakers and that is Zurich. The page name is not important but the text on the page is. This is an on-line Encyclopaedia and to be of most use to English speaking people, using English keyboards, using the most common search engine, the Wikipedia pages will not show up in the standard search. Even if they do use the German spelling, (which is tricky to do without a German keyboard so is unlikely, the Wikipedia pages would be buried in amongst German ones unless they apply another filter for English only. Why make users use two procedures just to "educate" them into the oddities of German spellings? It is not so bad for the main Zurich page because that has "Zurich" at the top. But what about subsidiary pages like the Second Battle of Zurich which has recently been converted to Zürich for all cases of Zurich in the text? It would not show up on a search of "Zurich".  Most English speaking people do not even know that Umlauts exist let alone "ß" (ss)?, So they would not know to do an initial search using them.

Most Brits struggle to pass French at school, (and many other English speaking countries do not learn French) so using French names with the full set of the French language characters (cedillas "(ç)" and circumflexs) would be beyond them. Being in Switzerland you are probably familiar with the French ones so a better example for you would be Irish. In Irish there are lots of symbols which you will not have easy access to, if an Irish Gaelic place name uses one and is the same name as the English name, should that town be referenced using those symbols (eg "(ċ)") in Wikipedia ? What about the Spanish Language? Just how many languages does one have to know the grammar, so that one can search with the correct accent on the word if it has one in the local language when traditionally they are ignored in English? If Zurich is to be referenced as Zürich then presumably the rule would be all of them. What about all those people who use the English Wikipedia who's first language is not a European one? I do not think that including foreign accents on characters is a sensible way to go and so I do not think that Zürich should be used in the English Wikipedia Philip Baird Shearer 15:31, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I do not think that including foreign accents on characters is a sensible way to go — here's quite a radical position! This is of course an issue of WP policy and not restricted to this page, so at this point we really should continue this on VP. Let me just say that I don't agree with you at all. There is lots of Unicode material on WP already, and en: is one of the last remaining that cling to the "entity" encoding rather than true unicode. The search arguments are technicalities and should enter a discussion of the search algorithm, not of the article text. (Gaelic overdots were used in medieval manuscripts to indicate palatalisation, btw, but they are not common in modern gaelic spelling). I agree that we need not give full diacritics in every case, see my comments on arabic transliteration on Talk:Islam. I do not oppose redirects with dropped diacritics at all, and this is how people searching for the term would find it. Nor do I support the native spelling in cases where there are well known English forms, eg Cologne to Köln (and I agree that Zürich is a borderline case in this respect). But as a source of knowledge, WP should strive to give the correct spelling, not a dumbed down one for people who are scared by diacritics. regards, dab 15:48, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I put the question on Village_pump_%28policy%29/Archive A now. dab 17:06, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * 1) The correct spelling of Zurich in Engish is Zurich.
 * 2) Why is "I do not think that including foreign accents on [English] characters is a sensible way to go" -- Note the word foreign -- "a radical position"? On the contrary forcing English people to lean about funny foreign lines, dots and squiggles above and below letters is radical.
 * 3) It is not a matter of Unicode,  it is that most English people do not use funny foreign lines, dots, squiggles over letters, or use German grammar rules to turn a ü into ue.
 * 4) You stated earlier that search engines will do the work. When I point out that they do not you then say "search arguments are technicalities". Why do you use a fall back position instead of saying "Yes that is a vaild point which I had not considered"?
 * 5) I was exagerating the use of Galic to make the point, but the "fatha" are used in Galic and most people, Irish (let alone English) would not expect to use them in English texts. Having to learn the grammar of a language just to be able to guess what foreign lines, dots, squiggles a word may have when a simple rule of strip them off works is overkill.
 * 6) Apart from the fact that you like an umlaut in the word Zurich, you have not come up with one reason to use them other than using them is "not a dumbed down one for people who are scared by diacritics". Speaking as a native English speaker,  I don't think that it is dumb to use "Zurich" to describe the city and I have given several rasons for doing so:
 * 7) * English speakers do not know about all the strange grammar rules used on foreign names in lots of foreign languages, so the traditional way around it, is to strip them off. I do not consider it dumb to do this because it is a simple rule which works for any Latin based alphabet. After all no native English speaker, who has not learnt German knows, or cares if Germans would pronounce zÜrich and zUrich diffrently because of two funny forign double dots.
 * 8) * A considerable number of people using the English version of this Encyclopaedia will not have a European Language and the Latin alphabet as their first language. Why inflict an unnecessary  level of  complication on them by insisting that they know all about all extra European dots lines squiggles on letters which do not exist in English?
 * 9) * The more popular search engines do not handle funny foreign double dots squiggles and dashes well. Even if they do, then without extra filters they throw up lots of double-Dutch in a foreign languages which is not what English speakers need or want most of the time Philip Baird Shearer 18:12, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * 10) * If a native English speaker wishes to find out about Zurich they do not expect to have to have a German grammar lesson before they can find the informaiton on the city.
 * hello? redirects? please cut down on the sarcasm a little bit. And kindly check dab

Apart from the fact that you would like to force dumb down[ed] native English speakers to learn about German grammar and umlouts on words, please state one good reason for using Zürich instead of Zurich. I have stated four of good reasons for not doing so. Philip Baird Shearer 18:12, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is silly. We had an enormous discussion and vote on this general issue a couple of months ago, and the "local/official name should be used" camp was in a definite minority, and so lost the vote. Zurich is the English name for what is called Zürich by the locals, has exactly the same status as Rome, Kiev and Cologne, and so is the form to be used in Wikipedia. Proteus (Talk) 17:40, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * No it doesn't. How is Cologne equal to Köln minus the Umlaut? I agree that Zurich is well known enough to pass as an English name, so I am not in opposition to a move to Zurich. But I maintain that this is a bordeline case, and in cases where the name is more obscure, the mere diacritica-stripped name does not qualify as "English". Why is everyone so heated about this? I am not trying to force anyone into learning anything. Distinguish between the reader and the editor. The reader doesn't need to learn anything he doesn't want to. The editor, of course, should have enough knowledge about the subject matter to at least get the spelling right. Please also distinguish the article title from the article text. Since we only have 8-bit titles, but full unicode article texts, it may make good sense to move the title to Zurich (because we cannot give full diacritics in every case anyway). But consider Template:wrongtitle (I didn't make it): It is there precisely for the purpose of moving article titles to their correct unicode form once this becomes technically feasible. Please, I am not trying to be elitist, here. An encyclopedia needs to have this information for people who want to know. If you do not want to know, you can always ignore the information. dab 10:41, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * What on Earth are you on about? How is Cologne equal to Köln minus the Umlaut? Why is it even remotely relevant how great the difference is between the English and local name? Is "Rome" less of an English name for "Roma" than "Cologne" is for "Köln" simply because Rome is Roma with the "a" changed to an "e"? Simply because the English name is the local name without diacritics does not make the English name any less of an English name. Proteus (Talk) 12:46, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Please note that I agree that both variants are arguable, and I do not oppose a move to Zurich. But are you even making a bona-fide effort to get my point? Let me provide some examples. Firstly, we obviously have Chechnya and not Noxçiyn Respublika. Then we have Kurgan Oblast rather than Kurganskaya Oblast, but also rather than Kurgan Province. Which of the three variants is most common in English? Exactly, they are all equally uncommon, because this oblast is hardly ever in the news. We have Ramesses II, but Ramses III. Why? This is an inconsistency. Ramses is the traditionally common English spelling, but Ramesses is now considered egyptologically more correct. If you know what you're doing, you may go over there and edit for consistency one way or the other. We also have Psammetichus I but not Rhampsinitus_I. inconsistent! why? because one is common in English and the other isn't. My point is: There is no simple rule. It will always be a case-by-case desicion of whether or not a spelling is 'common' in English. Lastly, there is Panini (scholar). See the wrongtitle-Template? This was added by User:Marnen, because, like me, he thinks that it's silly to spell the grammarian like the sandwich when we could spell him unambiguously, P&. dab 13:11, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) Google: 63,200 English pages for "kurgan oblast", 159 English pages for "kurgan province". I think it's quite clear which is more common in English. 2) There's currently a WikiProject for sorting out the Pharaoh names: WikiProject Ancient Egypt. They won't stay inconsistent for ever. 3) The "wrongtitle" template shouldn't be there. In English he's called "Panini", and so the article's at the right place. 4) As there doesn't seem to be anyone actually objecting at the moment to moving this page back to where it should be, I'll move it back. Proteus (Talk) 14:22, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Google rules (pun intended). But I was trying to get my point across, so throwing hit counts at me does not help very much. Do you suggest we use whichever spelling has the most "lr=lang_en"-googlehits? anyway, move to Zurich, the poll was inconclusive anyway. I disagree on Panini, but that hardly belongs here. dab 14:33, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * And note the happy umlauts, unafraid of the English language, on http://www.zuerich.com/ (Zürich Tourism). dab 14:39, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * obviously, some people do object. sigh, I've made my points. I maintain that both variants may be argued, and that the search-engine related arguments are invalid because of the redirects, so I'll just leave the issue alone now, because that's simply something not worth starting a reversion-war over. dab 14:43, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That the moment English artcle reads: Why does it no read:
 * ''Zürich [ˈtsyːrɪç] (in English often spelled Zurich, and spelled Zuerich in accordance with conversion of umlauts)
 * '' Zurich (German:Zürich (or Zuerich in accordance with the German conversion of umlauts)).

Is this an English encyclopaedia or a German one?

BTW what is the #712 tsy #720 r #618 cedilla, placed after the first word Zürich, supposed to be becuase on my screen it comes out as ?tsy?r?ç

The rule can be a simple one "strip the diacritics on forign name unless they are very well known on that word in English." The articles can then start with an Anglo version followed by the local version eg:
 * Zurich (German:Zürich)
 * Cologne (German:Köln)
 * Berlin (German:Berlin)
 * Rome (Italian and Latin Roma)
 * Copenhagen (Danish:København)
 * Sao Tome Principe (Portuguese _Príncipe São Tomé and Príncipe) ...some where in the text "São Tomé and Príncipe" literally translated into English is "Saint Thomas and Prince" but this is never used.

I think that it would be nice if the second word linked to the WikipediA version of the word in the sister language encyclopaedias. I only know how to do this as an external link if someone knows a better way please edit the text. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:59, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * happy now? you can click on "German" to find out about the scary umlaut, and you can click on "IPA" to find out what the cedilla is supposed to be. If you see question marks where letters should be, your browser is unable to render Unicode, the de-facto Internet standard for non-ascii characters. You may choose to upgrade. "Simple rules" are not always the best choice, an encyclopedia is a complicated animal... Everybody agrees on Cologne and Rome. In my book, the rule should be, use the diacritica-stripped version if really common in English, otherwise the word is not English anyway. It's an article in an English encyclopedia about a word that happens to be not English. As I say, Zurich may be common enough to be considered an English word. Whether or not this is the case is what this whole discussion is all about. dab 12:51, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * The Encyclopædia Britannica uses Zürich. The Columbia Encyclopedia uses Zürich. But Encarta uses Zurich. The unabriged Merriam-Webster gives Zurich with the variant form Zürich. The Merriam-Webster Online gives Zurich along with variant and German Zürich. The American Heritage Dictionary has only Zurich.   The CIA Fact Book has Zürich on the map and Zurich in the text. Yahoo! Travel has both spellings on the same page..  The form Zürich rather than Zurich in two encyclopedias shows that the difference between Zurich and Zürich does not have the exactly the same status as the difference between Rome and Roma and Cologne and Köln. Merriam-Webster recognizes Zürich as a valid variant English form as well as being the German form.  Accordingly it seems incorrect to say that  Zürich is the correct spelling English. If both spellings are used in such reputable English publications, then either form is a correct spelling  in English. Debate on that account is as futile as debating about the spelling of façade in English.  What should be established is how many others use Zürich in English publications in preference to Zurich and who they are. Which English language atlases and gazeteers prefer Zurich and which prefer Zürich? What forms mostly appear in recent books mentioning Switzerland? Which academic or newspaper style sheets recommend Zürich and which ones recommend Zurich? Is the usage in Britannica and Columbia unusual or now very normal? When did practice generally change, if it has changed? If it has not generally changed, then Wikipedia should probably go with Zurich, though I personally prefer Zürich. Though a native born English speaker, I prefer to see non-English names with full spellings, diacritics included, despite Philip Baird Shearer's unsupported assertion that no such native-born English speakers exist. Diacritics do give you more information on pronunciation and some of us like that extra information.  Jallan 03:46, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * thank you! good research. as I said, both forms are current, Zurich is more frequently used, but Zürich is more 'educated'/academic/correct. As an encyclopedia we should therefore use the latter. And no, as you say, this is not like using Köln in an ENglish text at all. dab 06:59, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jallan I have qualified English speakers in many cases with the word "most". Please read all above and anything else I write in this section as "most English speakers" even if I write "English speakers". As the native English speaking community is may hundreds of millions to say or imply anything else would be silly. Just as to say that I have asserted the "no such native-born English speakers exist" is silly. You should read what I have written above as a conversational piece so as I have not qualified the phrase with "most" in every case please except my apologies. BTW do you speak German or have you learn about umlauts as an independent exercise?

Jallan do you have any thoughts on the pratical problems of electronically searching on a word in secondary articles which use Zürich. As I mentioned previously now that Second Battle of Zürich has had the link changed to Zürich and for consistency all other occurences Zürich in the article, it will no longer show up in text searches on the word Zurich, which as dab says is the "most frequent" (English language) usage. What happens if there is only one occurance of Zurich in a page should one use the name to the current link or the most common usage? If I use Google and restrict the search to [Zurich site:www.britannica.com] 732 hits are returned, but for [Zürich site:www.britannica.com] 5,370 hists are returned. I do not think that this is a pratical way to go in an on line world.

BTW road maps have to use the local spellings, one would be driving for a long time before finding a sign post to Cologne! But one of the advantages of using a UK road map on the continent of Europe is that it tends to have both words on the map so that a "dumb down[ed] native English speaker can realise that the locals call the town by a diffrent name from the English one. For this reason I do not think that using maps is very useful to this argument.

dab you are at it again your argument for using Zürish is "you would like to force dumb down[ed] native English speakers to learn about German grammar and umlouts on words". Yet Wiki policy is to go with the most common usage, and you state " Zurich is more frequently used". using: covers both our arguments. The Wiki policy of common usage is covered and you get to educate the "dumb down[ed]" native English speakers which clearly excludes Jallan who is not "dumb down[ed]". Philip Baird Shearer 10:36, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Zurich (German:Zürich)
 * Philip, I apologize if you felt insulted by my use of the phrase 'dumbed down forms'. I did not want to imply you or anyone was dumb. I appreciate your point about unnecessary and confusing spellings when simpler ones would do. But you show no sign of understanding our point that the Cologne case is of a different quality than the Zurich case. Also, can we please drop the "search engine" argument? It is a technical problem, and we are discussing a quesitoin of language, here. It is also an easily solved problem (with redirects). As for use of Zurich in other articles, it is not a problem either. It will depend on the scope and style of that article. In a case like Old Swiss Confederacy, which is teeming with names like Schwyz, Greifensee, reichsfrei etc., Zürich is not out of place. If we have a paragraph about modern politics or economics, that includes names like Paris, New York, Geneva, Tokyo, Zurich may be more appropriate. Such different uses in different contexts are the whole (or one) point of redirects. dab 14:48, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No you have not insulted me but you have made a valid point about the level of understanding of most English speaking people. One night in the observatory restaurant in central Zurich, when I was working on the computerisation of the SWX (where the question of the spelling of Zurich was pertinent in many documents) and living opposite the restaurant on Oetenbachgasse, about a dozen of us ordered a meal in English and the waiter got flustered, as some of us had heavy English accents which he could not understand, although he spoke much better English than most of us spoke high German. A Dutch colleague who was there with us started to laugh. When I enquired why he said "I was here last week with my wife and when I did not understand all of his Schweitzer German, I got flustered (and he spoke very good high German). But when you lot come here he gets flustered! Dutchmen would not sit here and expect the waiter to speak Dutch and the waiter certainly would not get flustered if he did not understand us!" We were living in Zurich, can you imagen the level of knowledge of umlauts on the fringes of the English speaking world! Why make it more difficult than it needs to be for them to use this Encyclopaedia? Philip Baird Shearer 16:31, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In general: length break

 * The map on the CIA website is not a road map. And I have many thoughts on the problems of searching on names with different spellings, especially having recently worked on a number of articles in Norse mytholgy where proper names sometimes have as many as eight or nine different variants in different English texts and on the web. See for example Halfdan the Old. The Zürich/Zurich difficulty in that area is scarcely worth the mentioning in comparison. Generally dropping diacritics in Wikipedia would help nothing when they are in common use in English texts. If a few publications drop them, most leave them on, at least for the largest and most influential European languages. For example, from The Economist Style Guide: Accents:"Put the accents and cedillas on French names and words, umlauts on German ones, accents and tildes on Spanish ones, and accents, cedillas and tildes on Portuguese ones: Françoise de Panafieu, Wolfgang Schäuble, Federico Peña. Leave the accents off other foreign names."That is about as weak a rule as you will find. Since diacritics are normally retained on such names in English contexts, web searches must take such spellings into account. Diacritics are normally kept in English, not stripped. From a search in Google set to English only:

Search pattern                         Count Düsseldorf -Duesseldorf -Dusseldorf    2,190,000 Dusseldorf -Düsseldorf -Duesseldorf    1,130,000 Duesseldorf -Düsseldorf -Dusseldorf    1,110,000
 * North American families originally bearing the surname mostly now spelled in Germany as Müller now sometimes bear the name Mueller, sometimes Muller, and sometimes even Müller. Obviously the diacritic should not be dropped on this last form. A suggestion that these diacritics cause any particular trouble to most English readers is absurd. They occur too often. Many English readers do not know exactly what some of them mean. So they quite reasonably ignore them without any difficulty. They cause no problems. No-one is being forced to learn anything about German or French or Spanish or Portuguese if they do not wish to. A lot of people seem to have quite enjoyed a book called The Lord of the Rings which is full of names with diacrtics, apparently not at all hindered by their lack of knowledge of proper Elvish and Old English pronunciation and exact meaning of those diacritics. But in the case of Zürich/Zurich, we are dealing with a name which has in the past in English been mostly spelled without the umlaut marker, either because it was simply dropped or because the form taken into English from the French form (as with Cologne). See List of English exonyms for German toponyms where it is stated:"Zurich is the established English spelling of Zürich and therefore no exception to the typographical rule that umlauts occurring in German proper names are kept in English texts."The Economist follows this rule. See The Economist Style Guide: Places. (But note their use of Côte d'Ivoire and Württemberg.) And it seems that the Encyclopædia Britannica did still follow this rule not too long ago, in a strange fashion. A note at WordWizard: Zurich/Zürich states:"Increasingly, I am giving cities and countries their proper native spelling in English texts (Nürnberg/Nuremberg, Düsseldorf/Dusseldorf, etc.). Zurich, however, I would generally still write without the umlaut in an English text. I have, however, today found that the Britannica makes a peculiar distinction. They refer to the town 'Zurich' as being the capital of the canton 'Zürich' on the northwestern end of 'Lake Zürich'. Can anyone find any substantiation for this distinction in spelling?"Presumably someone was mindlessly combining the rule about Zurich the city with some other rule by which geographical features and cantons should be spelled in native fashion.  However, that the Encyclopædia Britannica has changed to Zürich and that the Columbia Encyclopedia uses Zürich suggests something has changed somewhere in style guides. That one has to use three different forms of the name to cover all websites in Google with all names containing ü is a fact, regardless of

what form appears most commonly in Wikipedia (though Google sometimes does inconsistantly match up forms). Using the spelling Zürich in Wikipedia would better indicate the necessity for multiple forms in searches than would using only Zurich in phrases like the battle of Zurich. A Google search using English only on "battle of Zurich" -Wikipedia -encyclopedia" gets 126 hits and "battle of Zürich -Wikipedia -encyclopedia -Zurich" gets only 14 hits. But one still has to use both forms to find all the pages in Google. There is no escaping that for any search involving Zürich/Zurich. A check in a local bookstore found five travel guides to Switzerland using Zürich throughout and only one using Zurich. Two atlases had Zürich and one had Zurich. But three modern historical books all had Zurich. Without knowing why these differences are occurring it is hard to decide on a choice. It is between a traditional English (and official French) spelling which is currently more common on the web and the official German spelling which is used in at two very prestigeous and careful sources of the exact kind that Wikpedia ought to be looking at and also found in other modern sources. Jallan 03:51, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Since this has ceased to be about Zürich only a long time ago, I really think this should be discussed on VP. If we can agree that there is a "Cologne" case and a "Württemberg" case (i.e. recognizing that umlauts should not be stripped always, mechanically), we can then return here to argue whether Z*rich is a "Cologne" or a "Württemberg" case (which I agree is indeed open to contention:) dab 12:18, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Agreed GOTO: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Transliteration --Philip Baird Shearer 14:45, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've discovered that Microsoft Encarta varies the spelling of Zurich/Zürich in different versions by language and nationality as follows:
 * Zürich (German form):
 * German:
 * Dutch:
 * English: United States, Canada
 * Japanese:

 * Zurich (French form):
 * French: France, Canada
 * Spanish: Spain, Mexico
 * English: United Kingdom, Australia

 * Zurigo (Italian form):
 * Italian:

This suggests a preference for Zürich in North America and for Zurich elsewhere, but is as likely to just indicate different style sheets used by editors which made somewhat arbitrary choices that were not especially linked to any supposed national style.

The London Times uses Zurich as does the Manchester Guardian. But so does the New York Times. However the Chicago Tribune uses Zürich. Google News always has far, far more hits for Zurich then Zürich, currently, 5,950 for Zurich and only 20 for Zürich, looking at English sites only.

The Canadian Encyclopedia: Zurich shows an interesting case. Searching for Zürich finds nothing while Zurich gets 35 hits. But if you check the text in articles found, some of them spell the name as Zurich and some as Zürich. This suggests that the indexer at least chose Zurich. But that conflicts with Encarta's choice of Zürich for Canada. Medcyclopædia has four hits for Zurich, all in articles, and 3 hits for Zürich. , but all in the introductory material.

I feel that this is a case like Cologne and Köln, as are English Mexico  against native México, English Montreal against native Montréal, English Quebec City against native la ville de Québec, English Orleans against native Orléans, English San Jose against native San José. The 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica used both Orleans and Zurich as spellings. The current Encyclopædia Britannica uses both Orléans and Zürich. But here Encarta uses Orléans throughout. The Canadian Style, a style guide used in some Canadian Government ministries, rules that Montréal and Québec are the forms that should be used even in English text. This is mostly ignored. Tradition is too strong. And the spellings represent different pronunciations. San José has been made the offical name of the Californian city, but purportedly San Jose is still the more common U.S. spelling for that city.

Anglicized names and native names exist in tension with one another, and the triumph of one of them over the other in a particular case has no necessary effect on any other case. And one may be preferred in academic circles and a another by the popular press. I don't care one way or the other in the case of Zürich over Zurich. Both are obviously acceptable in English and either will do. But we still need more evidence on usage, not avodicacy for a unique policy of dropping all diacritics which is not supported by usage.

Jallan 01:53, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I completely agree with Jallan. I am in this discussion bot because I cannot live with a move to Zurich, but because I emphatically oppose making the stripping of diacritics a general policy. dab 07:37, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The discussion of WP policy on diacritics is now at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_%28use_English%29 (including a "Zürich case"). dab 08:57, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 December 2018
There was an election today (5th of december). Johann Schneider Ammann is no longer Federal Council. He was replaced by Karin Keller-Sutter. Doris Leuthard is no longer Federal Council. She was replaced by Viola Amherd. Leandro Zehnder (talk) 19:18, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It is indeed a very good thing that this page be protected, as it will prevent contributors who are utterly ignorant about Swiss politics to include such false assertions in the article. Johann Schneider Ammann and Doris Leuthard are still Federal Councillors, and they will stay so until January first, 2019, when they will be replaced by the two Federal Councillors who where elected today.Sapphorain (talk) 19:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Quite right. Sumorsǣte (talk) 22:03, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Not done for now: per reasons above. CoolSkittle (talk) 02:31, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2018
Change Doris Leuthard and Johann Schneider Ammann to Karin Keller Sutter and Viola Amherd Leonie Lllll (talk) 19:29, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Asked and answered above. — KuyaBriBri Talk 20:36, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Changes to the Federal Council
Hello, Because of the new year, the composition Federal Council has been changed. However I don't have the privileges to edit the page at the moment, so can someone do it? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:120B:C3EA:3290:1C4B:9FED:CFEC:EBC7 (talk) 23:49, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Timezone Change of Switzerland
Hello Wikipedia !

On 23 September 2018, Switzerland quietly switched to Permanent DST without public's knowledge, I noticed that when traveling by train and saw that the train was 1-Hour ahead of the clock on my personal device (my device shown 6:18 PM and the train shown 7:18 PM), meaning that personal devices are off by 1-Hour since that day, some stations are still using Winter Time as though big stations (I.e Geneva, Lausanne, etc...) all show Permanent DST (UTC+02:00), this change is noticeable across Switzerland (sometimes the PID (Passenger Information Displays) are turned off so it's unnoticeable).

I suggest that the Wikipedia page be updated and UTC+01:00 be removed off of Switzerland as currently CH is on UTC+02:00 this might be because Switzerland's Capital is directly on the theoretical +02:00 Timezone and not on the theoretical +01:00 Timezone, which is understandable to switch to +02:00 instead of being on +01:00.

We might dive deep more into the hows and whys of this Timezone disparity and discuss it more.

Unfortunately, there hasn't been any news articles, no announcement from the government and you can only see that for yourself, by the way, the SBB CFF FFS (passenger, not Cargo) belongs to the Swiss Government, so they have insight.

Jeremy974 US (talk) 14:35, 15 January 2019 (UTC)Jeremy974_US

 * It's impossible for a country to change its timezone without extensive news coverage. I have not been able to find any such information. Favonian (talk) 15:01, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Drug addiction issue
Switzerland has a major issue with drug addiction .Fact. google "swissinfo" (official Swiss tv and online media) and "cocaine use". Cocaine consumption is high by world and european standard (in fact 5 cities in CH are among Europe's top 10)..Sad!..This fact needs to be mentionned in healthcare or crime. Not a word about CRIMINALITY in general either!...66.87.85.105 (talk) 04:21, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

 * See Crime in Switzerland for refs and context. If anybody has any source about cyber-criminality also (to add to this article), that is useful also..66.87.31.24 (talk) 03:59, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2019
africans be like 198.100.147.118 (talk) 18:14, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. aboideautalk 18:19, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Most guns owned in Switzerland are not militia-issued, and guns are a statutory right. Ammo is not banned for private possession
There are anywhere from 2.3 to 3.4 million privately held arms in Switzerland: https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland

The number of soldiers in the Swiss military is only 160k: https://www.vbs.admin.ch/fr/ddps/faits-chiffres/armee.html

That means at best, only 160k guns on Switzerland are military-issued. Therefore to claim that most guns in Switzerland have to do with military duty is just wrong.

Only militia-issued ammo is banned from private possession. To acquire ammo from a gun shop to keep at home only requires a criminal records extract not older than 3 months, or a weapons acquistion permit not older than 2 years IF asked by the seller. See the article on Swiss gun laws on the wiki for more information.

Gun ownership is a statutory right under article 3 of the 1997 Weapons act: http://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classified-compilation/19983208/index.html

I quote: "Art. 3 Recht auf Waffenerwerb, Waffenbesitz und Waffentragen: Das Recht auf Waffenerwerb, Waffenbesitz und Waffentragen ist im Rahmen dieses Gesetzes gewährleistet." (The right to acquire, possess and carry arms is guaranteed in the framework of this law.)

It being a statutory right can be seen in the laws in the sense that you do not need to provide a reason or any sort of justification to obtain a waffenerwerbsschein. You also do not need to go through training, any sort of tests, evaluations, interviews, or any inspections to obtain the permit. The waffenerwerbsschein is shall-issue, meaning that if you have a clean criminal record, the police is obligated to issue the permit. It cannot use discretion, and thus all these circumstances make it much different than gun laws elsewhere in Europe. Abatementyogin (talk) 22:05, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2019
Emmentaler is the cheese, Emmental is the place (valley). 93.62.207.138 (talk) 08:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: consistent with the Wikipedia article at Emmental cheese. I would suggest discussing this at the talk page of that article. There hasn't been any discussion there in a couple of years. It looks like a couple of move requests in 2016 had some support to move that article to Emmentaler as you suggest, but no consensus was reached. ‑‑ El Hef  ( Meep? ) 17:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Swiss neutrality
Currently the article contains the sentence

Swiss neutrality has been questioned at times

this is a clear violation of WP:WEASEL and it does not even make any sense, please expand what this is supposed to mean and read up on what Swiss neutrality really means, namely not entering wars on either side: "Switzerland is not to be involved in armed conflicts between other states". So first, if there is criticism, I suggest to first include this into the corresponding article and expand there. I will remove the above sentence unless there is a good argument for keeping it and somebody can expand it to make sense for the reader. --hroest 17:50, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

 * @ hroest: Your point is noted but we can't only "parrot" the official version. We must adhere to WP:neutral and include (at a minimum) a sentence that reports what reliable sources say about the subject (including mainstream Swiss media).

 * P.S.
 * I will repeat that sentence in main article's lead as per above.

Regards, Swiss romulus (talk) 02:31, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

economy section
Switzerland is ranked as having one of the most powerful economies in the world

That sentence meets WP:Weasel IMO and should be tagged as such. Switzerland is not even among the top 20 countries by GDP size (see G-20) but it certainly punches above its weight (I heard it is the ninth "financial power" however, whatever that means)?

Best. Swiss romulus (talk) 02:31, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

ColorCode
RedObviouseWeLikeOurApplesLikeInSnowWhiteOriginalMostOscarizedAutorVersion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.218.29.202 (talk) 01:59, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Roger Federer most successful tennis player?
And why is not Rod Laver the most successful tennis player. He won the Grand Slam two times, Roger Federer 0 times He won the Davis Cup 5 times, Roger Federer 1 time Really, this statement about Roger Federer is clearly POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nulli (talk) 02:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Old 2019 estimates for 2020 GDP
Given what happened afterwards, invoking an old October 2019 estimate as a meaningful update for the 2020 GDP is a nonsense. Sapphorain (talk) 15:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Old 2019 estimates for 2020 GDP
Given what happened afterwards, invoking an old October 2019 estimate as a meaningful update for the 2020 GDP is a nonsense. Sapphorain (talk) 15:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Banking
It seems 2 editors have a problem with my edits. Unfortunately, user:ZH8000 has added NEW edits while undoing mine. So i had no choice but to revert the WHOLE thing...I have not looked at the seriousness of his other edits (so I did not mean to revert it ALL at once).

Regarding the source of disputed edit (by ZH8000 only), it is stated in both articles cited (one is Russia Today and the other is a local Swiss newspaper) that London-based Tax Justice Network is the PRIMARY source of this report. I don't know about HIS agenda but ours is CLEAR (WP:fact and WP:Verifiabilty). Swiss romulus (talk) 04:09, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Russia Today =WP:BIASED...Tax Justice Network =WP:NOTADVOCACY.-- Moxy 🍁 04:25, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. A question if I may: WHAT exactly is TJN is advocating, in your view?

 * ...And what about these sources which state broadly the SAME?? (e.g. CBS news, Swissinfo, Swiss TV and others):

If you prefer, I can replace it with above quotes. Up to you. Swiss romulus (talk) 05:05, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

 * Besides, we don't think anybody in Russia's leadership position has a vested interest to criticize Swiss banks since they have/are sheltering $billions for the Russian oligarchy, political leadership (and mob probably)...don't take my word for it.Swiss romulus (talk) 05:23, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

To answer one of your first points, ZH8000 is a self appointed arbiter of what may or may not appear in any article on Switzerland. In particular he will not allow anything that is remotely critical of anything Swiss to stand. He is also a self appointed arbiter of the English used in such articles (even though he has severe competancy issues on that subject), hammering in his idea of English rather than the actual language's grammatical rules (in fact: many of his edits and posts are an obvious machine translation).

Finally, ZH8000 will use Wikipedia policy to hammer any other editor attempting to alter hi preferred version of an article while completely ignoring all policy himself (notably WP:OWNERSHIP. His claim that "According the WP:BRD rule, the reverted editor has to justify his disputed change on the talk page without reverting", is nonsense. WP:BRD is neither a rule nor Wikipedia editing policy. It is only an essay which states clearly at the top "This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community". In other words: you cannot be sanctioned for ignoring it (though you can be if you violate WP:3RR). 86.130.28.42 (talk) 13:37, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

 * Thanks (True). Swiss romulus (talk)

 * @Swiss romulus It seems that your strategy is to simply revert any edits that change something you do not like on this page instead of discussing it here first. Also, please dont just revert whole changes as here if you dont agree with parts of it, rather revert only the section you dont agree with or put it up for discussion here. I am not against adding critical statements about the Swiss economy or Switzerland in general but I suggest to add a balanced paragraph that includes all criticism instead of a single factoid from RT that is completely out of context and does not cover criticism of Swiss policies in a holistic way.
 * I also agree with Moxy that RT is heavily biased and should not be used a source here. --hroest 17:19, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

 * Mostly untrue, simply read again. Swiss romulus (talk)

@ Hannes Rost: Editor DonSpencer1 is rolling back all info about connection to illegal activities in banking in Switzerland. It's all well sourced info.

We agreed to keep details in sub-articles as long as it doesn't get deleted there, 99.203.25.117 (talk) 23:02, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

 * At a minimum, we need one sentence explaining the problem. Feel free to reformate but don't delete. Thanks much. Swiss romulus (talk)

title: Talk:Switzerland/Archive 3


text:
Nicolás de Jesús López Rodríguez

Nicolás de Jesús López Rodríguez (born 31 October 1936) is a Dominican cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church and archbishop emeritus of Santo Domingo.

Early years
He was ordained on 18 March 1961 by Francisco Panal Ramírez OFM, bishop of La Vega. He served as Vicar cooperator of the cathedral of La Vega, 1961–1963. Further studies in Rome, 1963–1965. Chancellor and secretary of the diocesan curia of La Vega, 1966–1968. Further studies, Rome, 1968–1969. In the diocese of La Vega, 1969–1978, diocesan assessor for the pastoral of the youth and pastor of the cathedral, 1969–1970. Vicar for the pastoral and pro-vicar general, 1970–1976. Vicar general, 1976–1978.

At the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas Angelicum he earned a licentiate in social science in 1965.

Besides his native Spanish, he speaks Italian, English, German, Portuguese and Latin.

Episcopate
He was appointed bishop of San Francisco de Macorís on 16 January 1978 by Pope Paul VI and was consecrated on 25 February 1978 by Cardinal Octavio Antonio Beras Rojas, archbishop of Santo Domingo, assisted by Juan Antonio Flores Santana, bishop of La Vega, and by Jesús María De Jesús Moya, auxiliary of Santiago de los Caballeros. He served as rector of the University of San Francisco de Macorís from 1979 to 1984. He was promoted to the metropolitan and primatial see of Santo Domingo on 15 November 1981. He was elected president of the Conference of the Dominican Episcopate in July 1984 and served as President of the Latin American Episcopal Council from 25 April 1991 to 1994. He was created Cardinal and assigned the titular church of San Pio X alla Balduina in the consistory of 28 June 1991.

He participated as cardinal elector in the papal conclaves of 2005 and 2013. When he reached age 80 in 2016, he became a non-elector.

He held the title of "Primate of the Indies", because the diocese of Santo Domingo was the first erected in the New World.

Pope Francis accepted his resignation on 4 July 2016, naming Francisco Ozoria Acosta, Bishop of San Pedro de Macorís, to succeed him. At the time his resignation was accepted, Lopez Rodríguez had rarely been seen in public for several months. He broke his silence early in September by writing an open letter apologizing to anyone he had offended while Archbishop. He said he felt no bitterness toward those who disagreed with him and professed joy at his successor's appointment.

Ozoria Acosta also succeeded Lopez Rodriguez as Ordinary of the Military Bishopric of Dominican Republic on 2 January 2017.

Views
López Rodríguez organized a meeting of the Latin American bishops held in Santo Domingo in 1992, which was a showcase for his very traditional views, described as "temporalist and pyramidal" by veteran Vatican observer Giancarlo Zizola. He tends to support the integralist view that the organic relationship of social classes supersedes social differentiation and social conflicts. He has advocated adding the Catholic feast of the Annunciation, 25 March, to the national holidays celebrated in the Dominican Republic.

Recall of nuncio accused of sexual abuse
In July 2013, López Rodríguez reported to Pope Francis personally that the papal nuncio to the Dominican Republic was rumored to have engaged in the sexual abuse of minors, which resulted in the nuncio's recall. He continued for several weeks to praise the nuncio, Józef Wesołowski, in public and say that his recall was routine. By the second week of September he asked the civil authorities to investigate the matter with "determination".

Homosexuality
During a 27 June 2013 interview, responding to a question about Barack Obama's appointment of Wally Brewster, an openly gay man, as U.S. ambassador to the Dominican Republic (D.R.), Lopez Rodriguez expressed his opposition to the appointment of a homosexual ambassador and said it was an attempt to promote the approval of same-sex marriages in the D.R. Moments later, when asked about problems between Haiti and the D.R. resulting from Haiti's claim that bird flu could be found in the D.R., Cardinal López Rodríguez laughed and said: "After talking about faggots and lesbians, now we'll talk about chickens". In the Dominican Republic, the word pájaro (bird) is used to refer pejoratively to a male homosexual.

In June 2014, after Brewster and his husband released a video promoting the celebration of June as Gay Pride Month, Lopez Rodriguez said "Diplomacy is not for that sort of thing, an absolutely negative propaganda" and that Brewster should "take his gay pride elsewhere". In December 2015, a week after Brewster criticized corruption in the Dominican Republic, Lopez Rodriguez said "That man [Brewster] needs to go back to his embassy. Let him focus on housework, since he's the wife to a man." These remarks were criticised by the US State Department. US Senator Dick Durbin asked Pope Francis to ask Rodriguez to treat Brewster with respect, citing the Pope's comments on the need to respect the dignity of all.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Nicolás de Jesús López Rodríguez


text:
Toronto Zoo Domain Ride

The Toronto Zoo Domain Ride (also known as the Canadian Domain Ride) was an automated guideway transit (AGT) service used to carry visitors between sections, or "domains", of the Toronto Zoo. Though technologically closer to a simple rubber-tired metro, it was almost universally referred to as a "monorail".

The train began running in 1976, and closed in 1994, after a train lost power and rolled backwards down the track into a second train, injuring about 30 people. Parts of the line were subsequently taken over by the Zoomobile, an open-air tractor-drawn vehicle with five stations (Main Station, Canadian Domain Station, Africa Station, Americas Station) which had been operating since 1980.

Ride details
The vehicle was a rubber-wheeled AGT prototype developed by American firm Bendix-Dashaveyor. The train operated on a concrete guideway with electricity supplied by rails located above one side of the guideway. Passengers entered and left via doors located at each double row of facing seats. A secondary set of controls was available in the last car of the train to allow it to be reversed into the storage/service area located towards the north end of the zoo property.

In addition to being a quick way to travel between sections of the zoo, the ride provided the only way to view several animals, in remote areas of the zoo. Moose, white-tailed deer and several other exhibits were not accessible from walking paths. The ride operator would provide commentary on the animals visible from the train during the ride.

Plans to scrap the vehicle and tracks dragged well past 1999. Portions of the guideway have now been removed, while others remain in place (overgrown by vegetation in many areas), but the electrical supply rails have been removed from the remaining portions of the guideway. Three stations remain in place: the Americas station stands behind closed gates, and the Weston station is still accessible for washrooms—the crumbling station platform can be seen from behind the chain barriers.

The Main Station still remains to this day and is now used for several purposes: the Peacock Cafe, and the Main Zoomobile station.

Accidents
During March break of 1991, nine people were injured when a train crashed into the rear of a second train that was stopped between stations. In December of that year, the Metro Zoo board of directors was warned that the monorail needed repair to its braking and propulsion systems in order to prevent future accidents.

On July 11, 1994, 37 people suffered injuries (including broken bones and whiplash) when one train crashed into a second that was in the process of loading. Upon leaving the Weston station, a train would have to climb a hill; however, at the top of the hill, the train lost power and rolled back into the station at an estimated 40 km/h (25 mph), slamming into the front of a second train that was loading. In general, trains would be spaced out by 15–20 minutes; however, due to a larger-than-usual attendance, trains were operating more frequently, and were more crowded too – the first train was carrying 60 passengers. As a result, the Zoo was fined C$43,000, and trial evidence indicated that the ride operator was "inadequately trained to handle the 'unusual situation'".

Zoomobile
The current Zoomobile is a Chance Coach Sunliner tram with four cars set (carrying 103 passengers, 1 driver and 1 tour guide) that replaced the Domain Ride and vehicles have rubber tires running on along paved paths in the zoo. Unlike the Domain Ride, the Zoomobile uses open air cars.

Successor
Zoo management has looked into plans for a maglev train operation replacing the Toronto Zoo Domain Ride. The Edmonton-based maglev consortium Magnovate, which includes Magna and Lockheed Martin, would pay for the construction, as well as the first five years of operation, while the zoo would pay for the operation afterwards. In November 2018, the deal is modified to the first 15 years of operation. The plan was approved by the Toronto Zoo board in December 2018. Construction was to begin after Magnovate raised sufficient funding to cover the estimated CA$25 million cost. The firm hoped to complete construction by 2021. However, this project is delayed due to the COVID-19 pandemic in Toronto.

title: Toronto Zoo Domain Ride


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susej

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete redirect. – ABCD 22:55, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Susej
Susej was moved out of the article namespace to BJOADN with the assumption that it was a Loof lirpa joke. However, I think it's a sufficiently meaningful and interesting topic that the debate on inclusion in the article namespace is at least worth having. It seems entirely factual to me (unless I'm still being fooled), and isn't badly written. -- Seth Ilys 12:48, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * yeah, but the only part of it that is actually about "Susej" is the part where it says (paraphrased) "Satanists often reverse Christian symbols. Some of them wear Susej t-shirts as an inside joke." The rest of it is about more general practices of ciphers and reversals. I don't know exactly why you've put it on VfD (what do you want to happen to it?) but I think your best bet is to add a bit about it to ciphers or word games. FreplySpang (talk) 14:18, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I added it to VfD so that we can have the debate about whether it belongs in the article namespace. If the result is "Keep," it can be moved to Susej, if not, it can stay in the BJAODN archive. - Seth Ilys 20:33, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep — It's not an uncommon term among the deviant life form community. There's even a www.susej.com redirect. :) — RJH 14:40, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Leave it in BJAODN. It is nonsense.  And what is the "deviant life form commuunity"?  RickK 23:30, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete It just seems pointless to me. I mean, we all have little saying amongst our friends, but that doesn't mean they ought to be articles. Atrivedi
 * Delete It's mostly nonsense, anything useful in it would better covered in other larger articles.Gmaxwell 20:46, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete from main namespace. Silly and not very widespread, as far as I can tell. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 15:13, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susej


text: User talk:209.158.171.21

title: User talk:209.158.171.21


text:
Talk:Succession to the Monegasque throne

Question
Question: If Albert II dies without a legit son would the throne go to Caroline or Andrea, considering Andrea is the next male heir?
 * Caroline would become the Princess, of course. Surtsicna (talk) 09:45, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Question
Question: if the Princess of Hanover predeceases her brother, who is first in line then ? Andrea or Stephanie ?

Andrea. He's ahead of Stephanie in the line of succession, and remains the son of the eldest daughter even if his mother dies. -- Curps 12:59, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

From the Constitution of Monaco (see third paragraph):

 * La succession au Trône, ouverte par suite de décès ou d'abdication, s'opère dans la descendance directe et légitime du Prince régnant, par ordre de primogéniture avec priorité masculine au même degré de parenté.

 * A défaut de descendance directe et légitime, la succession s'opère au profit des frères et soeurs du Prince régnant et de leurs descendants directs et légitimes, par ordre de primogéniture avec priorité masculine au même degré de parenté.

 * Si l'héritier qui aurait été appelé à monter sur le Trône en vertu des alinéas précédents est décédé ou a renoncé avant l'ouverture de la succession, la dévolution s'opère au profit de ses propres descendants directs et légitimes, selon l'ordre de primogéniture avec priorité masculine au même degré de parenté.

 * Si l'application des paragraphes ci-dessus ne permet pas de pourvoir à la vacance du Trône, la succession s'opère au profit d'un collatéral désigné par le Conseil de la Couronne sur avis conforme du Conseil de régence. Les pouvoirs princiers sont provisoirement exercés par le Conseil de régence.

 * La succession au Trône ne peut s'opérer qu'au profit d'une personne ayant la nationalité monégasque au jour de l'ouverture de la succession.

Question-2: So theoretically the Princess of Hanover could emulate her grandmother one of these days and the throne go directly to Andrea ...?

 * Yes, as long as her brother dies without any surviving legitimate descendants. -- Curps 17:18, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Question-3: The article on Les Baux de Provence states that Caroline, Princess of Hanover is now Marquise des Baux. Is it really true (would mean that it is somewhat "automatic") or would it need a decision by the Prince Albert II to confer this title to his sister?

 * Hmmm, actually I'm not sure if this is true... maybe it's reserved for Albert's own future firstborn son. I looked at http://www.palais.mc/ but there's no information. -- Curps 21:50, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * In this case I think that it would be more prudent to remove that from Les Baux page... in addition that 'information' has propagated to the Albert II and to the Caroline page...

Hi. I just found this website, which looks sober enough. It's outdated since it still lists Rainier III as reigning prince, but it already takes into consideration Princely Law 1.249. The issue I see is that, as you will notice, it has Princess Antoinette and her descendants in line for succession. Our article states that the Princess and her issue have been removed from the line of succession on the occasion of the accession of Albert II, but could still be eligible in case the throne falls vacant. Well, first it looks to me as a bit of a contradiction, since either you're excluded or you're still in line. If you've been excluded from succession, you can't be brought back bureaucratically because it may be convenient (or can it be?). More to the point, it may be that the Princess and her descendants have not actually been excluded from succession, but only bumped down in favor of all of Rainier's descendants, present and future. If that is the case, our article would need some rephrasing — although I have not read the Monegasque Constitution or Princely Law 1.249, so I could be misinterpreting all of this. Regards, Redux 18:41, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Antoinette and her descendants are indeed out of the line of succession, as of the death of Rainier. This doesn't mean that they are excluded or disqualified from ever sitting on the throne (as a Catholic would be for the British throne), it just means they're no longer on a list, where if all the people above you on the list die you automatically become the sovereign.

 * The only way that they could ever conceivably reach the throne is if the entire current line of succession became empty and Albert died, in which case the Crown Council would have to meet as per the constitution to pick some relative out of the direct line (un collatéral in the words of the constitution), who must be of Monegasque nationality, as the new sovereign. In the event of this unlikely disaster, it seems entirely reasonable that the Crown Council would wish to pick someone from Antoinette's line, but they would indeed pick and choose the person of their choice... the succession of any specific person would not be automatic, because Antoinette and her descendants are no longer automatically ranked within the line of succession, and any one of them (or indeed all of them) could indeed be passed over. -- Curps 18:50, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nationality
Do children not take the nationality of their father's ? I would have thought that the Ducruet children were French and therefore not eligible for succession.?
 * Can't the Prince grant Monegasque citizenships to whomever he wants ?

Nationality
I suppose you are right - he can do whatever he wants !

I believe that in a situation as with the children of Princess Stephanie, it would be most likely that the children would use the citizenship of the parent who is of a higher rank, this being Princess Stephanie. However it is possible that they have dual citizenship. ((Cooldoug111 02:25, 2 August 2005 (UTC)))

Princess Alexandra of Hanover
I am watching the enthronement ceremony on TF1. They say it seems that there are doubts about the presence of Princess Alexandra in the list of succession because she is protestant. Catholicism is a state religion in Monaco.Hektor 09:43, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Does the Monaco constitution not say that a child must be born from a lawful, catholic marriage. This would mean that Alexandra is not in line, as her parents did not have a catholic wedding, nor could they, as in the eyes of the catholc church he is still married to his first wife.
 * No, Monaco's constitution simply requires that successors to the throne be legitimately descended from the reigning Sovereign or be one of his/her dynastic siblings, or a legitimate descendant thereof. "Legitimately" means born of parents who, either at the time of or subsequent to their child's birth, have been lawfully married to one another -- neither having been legally married to another at the time of that birth. Legitimacy of children in no way depends upon the parents' marriage having been conducted or recognized by the Roman Catholic (or any other) church: civil marriage is sufficient (and, in Monaco, required) to determine a child's legitimacy dynastically. FactStraight (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

==Answer, Princess Alexandra of Hanover: She is indeed in line. religion has nothing to do with the throne really. The Monaco constitution only states that the parents must be married at one point or another in order for the child to be considered legitimate, etiher prior to the birth or after, and the wedding can either be civil or religious (or both. In the case of Alexandra, it was a civil marriage on 23 January 1999.). As is with the case of Louis and Pauline Ducruet, who were both born prior to the marriage of their parents, and their parents married a little over a year after Pauline's birth.
 * No, if the parents were lawfully married but that marriage was terminated prior to the child's birth, then the child is not legitimate, and can only be legitimised by the parents' lawful re-marriage to one another subsequently. This marriage, termination of marriage and re-marriage with children born after the second marriage has happened in reigning dynasties at least twice: 1.The 1632 elopement of the widower Gaston, Duke of Orleans, younger brother of Louis XIII, with Princess Marguerite of Lorraine, was nullified by order of the King, who only relented and authorized the lovers to re-wed on his deathbead in 1643. 2.The 1779 marriage to a woman of the lower French nobility, Elisabeth Magon de Boisgarin, of Prince Eugenio of Savoy-Carignan, Count of Villafranca was dissolved by the Parlement of Brittany at the behest of his father, a cousin of the King of Sardinia, head of the House of Savoy, who likewise relented and allowed the couple to re-marry; otherwise Guiseppe di Savoia-Villafranca, known as the Chevalier de Savoy who was later de-morganatized and made a prince and HRH, would have been a bastard. Nor is the child legitimate if the parents were married only in a religious ceremony, unless the wedding took place in a jurisdiction (such as the UK, US, but not Monaco, France or Germany) which does not require a civil marriage in addition to (or instead of) religious nuptials. FactStraight (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The same also goes for Camille Gottlieb, Alexandre Coste and Jazmin Grace Grimaldi-in the unlikely case Stephanie confirms publicly who Camille's father is and marries him, she will be in line, and if Albert marries either Tamara or Nicole (mothers of his illegitimate children), they will also be in line. Jazmin Grace WAS NOT (I repeat: WAS NOT) a child of adultery-her mother's previous marriage to a tabloid photographer was a civil marriage, and was over before she met Albert, therefore there was no religious aspect for it, so in the "eyes of the church" she is a divorced non-catholic woman.
 * No, Jazmin's mother's marriage was not legally and finally dissolved by divorce until 8 days after the birth of Albert II's daughter Jazmin (six months after the US court granted a divorce by decree nisi). Since it is irrelevant to legitimacy of birth in Monaco whether a lawful marriage is also religiously valid, it does not matter that Jazmin's mother and first husband were not married by the RC church. But it does matter that the marriage was still valid when Jazmin was born. While it is true that canon law does not acknowledge a Roman Catholic's dissolved civil marriage to have been valid for purposes of re-marriage within the RC Church (that's why Felipe, Prince of Asturias was able to canonically marry the civilly married and divorced Letizia Ortiz), but what is applicable here is Monegasque law -- not Vatican law. FactStraight (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Mathieu Snaet
Princess Stephanie is currently married to Mathieu Snaet ...? where is the evidence to support this this ? Palace officials have consistently denied that a marriage took place.

Elisabeth-Anne de Massy
How could Elisabeth-Anne de Massy have been in line to the throne, if her parents were not married? User:Zoe|(talk) 00:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Elizabeth-Anne de Massy was born on 13th January 1947. Her parents were married in December 1951. She was legitimized by her parents marriage and therefore eligible to succeed.

 * Thanks. That should probably be made clear.  I'll try to do that.  User:Zoe|(talk) 18:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

French Treaty Issues
It seems someone should explain the historical and possible present treaty issues. There was some issue as to who could inherit the thrown without the country reverting to France under treaty.--CSvBibra 01:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Charlotte Casiraghi
I read here that Charlotte is fourth in line, but the page says the fourth is Alexandra (and Charlatte is note named at all in the page). Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.202.113.10 (talk) 11:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

princess Alexandra
Today at the broadcast from the wedding someone on the Dutch television explained who the people in the line of succesion were. He said that princess Alexandra is higher in the line than her brother Andrea because her father has a higher rank than his father. He said that she is the second in line after her mother. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.168.31.172 (talk) 18:26, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Jazmin Grace Grimaldi
Jazmin Grace Grimaldi Would be eligible for the throne if Prince Albert ever married her mother as she, like the others, is considered illegitimate. Tamara was divorced at the time.

The idea that he will marry Tamara isn't likely though, especially now being married to Charlene.

Besides the fact that there is nothing in the laws and constitution of Monaco stating that an offspring of an affair cannot inherit the throne. If that were the case, then the Casiraghis would be excluded permanently as their mother was married prior to the marriage with Stefano, and the marriage wasn't annulled until after Stefano's death, in 1992. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MTracy2011 (talk • contribs) 21:27, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * No. A person born to parents who were not married to each other at the time of birth does not have any Monegasque succession rights unless legitimised by his or her parents' subsequent marriage, which is possible only if the child was not born adulterously (article 227 of the Monegasque Civil Code states: "Les enfants nés hors mariage, autres que les enfants adultérins, sont légitimés par le mariage subséquent de leurs père et mère, lorsque ceux-ci les ont légalement reconnus avant leur mariage ou qu'ils les reconnaissent au moment de la célébration." while art. 229 states: "Les enfants légitimés par le mariage subséquent auront les mêmes droits que s'ils étaient nés de ce mariage"). Louis Ducruet and Pauline Ducruet as well as Sasha Casiraghi have been legitimised by their parents' subsequent marriages. FactStraight (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Fact check: Again, I state: Tamara was DIVORCED from a CIVIL Bold textmarriage. If what you state is true, then the Casiraghis, and Princess Alexandra are not in line either as Caroline was previously married to someone else and did not marry either of their fathers religiously. Religion has nothing to do with the act of succession, nor does adultery. The Civil Code has nothing to do with the succession. I repeat: The Civil Code has nothing to do with the succession, which is covered under the Constitution. Also: Sac'''ha SANTO DOMINGO is not Andrea's son, nor his Andrea married. There has been no official announcements in regards to either, the only "source" is TABLOIDS, which aren't reliable.''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.217.247 (talk) 21:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Please stop shouting. The article does not say and no one has suggested that Roman Catholic canon or any other religious requirements are applicable to Monaco's succession, which is entirely secular. Therefore, the prior marriages of Princesses Caroline and Stephanie are not relevant to their children's eligibility to inherit Monaco's throne: only their mothers' marital status at the time of or subsequent to the birth of their children matters and whether or not any of their children was born adulterously. Monaco's Constitution, Article 10:La succession au Trône, ouverte par suite de décès ou d'abdication, s'opère dans la descendance directe et légitime du Prince régnant, par ordre de primogéniture avec priorité masculine au même degré de parenté. "Legitimate" is used yet not defined in Monaco's Constitution, but is defined in Monaco's Civil Code, which is why children whose parents' marry subsequent to their birth may be retroactively legitimised -- the Civil Code specifies that this is so. However, that Civil Code also imposes a restriction: the child may only be legitimated by subsequent marriage if neither parent was legally married at the time of the child's birth. This is not a new definition or restriction on the concept of legitimacy, but is as old as the Code Napoleon, and is a secular, not a canonical restriction. Albert's eldest known child was apparently conceived while the mother was separated from her husband. After she became pregnant, she initiated a divorce which was not contested by her then-husband, and was granted by a San Diego court. However, a decree nisi was issued, meaning that the divorce did not come into legal effect for six months. Six months after the court's official ruling was eight days after Jazmin Grimaldi was born. Although the mother's husband never claimed that the child born during the marriage was his, the child was born while her mother was married to someone other than her father. The relevant divorce decree is a matter of public record and is easily verified, although the newspaper publication of it has been expunged from Wikipedia when Wikipedia's article on the mother was deleted. FactStraight (talk) 04:08, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Your "fact straight" account needs to get their facts straight. 1. Jazmin has just as much right to the throne as her brother or cousin. 2. Sacha Santo Domingo has nothing to do with the Grimaldi throne. Never has, never will. 3. Monaco's Civil Code has nothing to do with the succession laws. It only covers the INHERITANCE (as in the money, not the crown). 4. Monaco's succession laws differ from the Civil Code. The Civil Code does not have anything to do with succesion, never has, never will. 4. Tamara Rotolo was vacationing in July 1991 to celebrate her divorce being finalized. The Divorce was finalized before she even boarded a flight to Monaco. 5. The information you have is sourced from a tabloid, not public records. Tabloids are not reliable sources. 6. The way you have it written and keep correcting my information as such, YES, you are implying that Cathoicism Does have something to do with the throne, when the fact is that it does not. 7. What information you have is inaccurate and completely disrespectful. Please do not edit my corrections again, the information I have is 100% accurate. The information you have is completely unverifiable, a quick Google search results in my information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.217.247 (talk) 15:10, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Given as your "100% accurate" information allows you to continue to believe that Andrea and Tatiana aren't married despite the fact that it was well publicized, I would question it. Psunshine87 (talk) 14:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC) News flash: a tabloid is not reliable information. There has been no announcements from the palace itslef regarding Andrea and Tatiana, which is a sign that it was all for publicity and nothing more. Unless it comes from the palace itself, it is not accurate information, which none of the sources regarding them or "Sacha" have come from the palace. As for your citing of a "civil code", that code became invalid in 2002 with the changes of the constitution, besides the fact that she is not of an adultery relationship-Tamara was divorced from a civil marriage at the time of her conception. Jazmin has the same chances as her younger half brother and cousin. If what you say is fact, then The Casiraghis and Ducruets do not have succession rights either as their parents were either not married prior to their births or had been previously married without an annulment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:6:1600:18D0:A0AF:95D8:B15A:D74A (talk) 21:54, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Princess Carolines's marriage to Philippe Junot was dissolved legally. After that she married her second husband Stephano Cassiraghi. The children of that marriage are legitimate when it comes to the succession to the throne. The RC church has no competence in these matters. Jazmin Grace is at this point not entitled to succeed nor will she ever be. Not even when the reigning Prince will marry her mother. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 22:35, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Alexander/Sacha Casiraghi
Is there any actual sources refering to Andrea's son as Alexander? All sources that I've seen have called him Sacha, as does Andrea's page. Psunshine87 (talk) 13:59, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It's only a wiki, but here his name is given as Alexandre Andrea Stefano Casiraghi Santo Domingo. Here is another source. -- Perrak (talk) 12:28, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Prince Albert II's heir to be born
The Princess of Monaco is pregnant. Isn't it appropriate to signal this pregnancy at the line of succession. I know Princess Caroline is still the first person in line, but if for some reason the Prince dies before the birth of the child, the throne will be vacant until it and the child becomes Prince or Princess automatically. I mean, this pregnancy is crucial for the line of succession.--144.64.78.89 (talk) 11:54, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Why do you assume that the throne would be vacant? I see no such thing in the Constitution. Le décès ou l'abdication du Prince régnant entraîne dévolution immédiate de la Couronne au profit du Prince Héréditaire... This actually implies the opposite, as Caroline is still the hereditary princess. Caroline might ascend and reign until the birth of the child. Surtsicna (talk) 15:51, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, I don't understand that idea of a first-in-line assuming the throne after the death of the titular, knowing that a posthumous child who would overtake the first-in-line will be born soon. Why isn't the child to be born already the successor? I find this confusing and that's why I'm asking this here at the talk page.--144.64.78.89 (talk) 19:58, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Succession
Wild hypothetical here, be warned. Albert and Charlene are expecting their first child around December of this year. That child automatically becomes first in line, as defined by Monaco's laws of succession.

What would happen if Albert and Charlene divorced and Albert married Alexandre's mother? As Alexandre is older than Albert and Charlene's child, and would be legitimated by his parent's marriage, would he become first in line?

PrsGoddess187 14:26, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

 * Yes, as current Monégasque law is written. And it is by no means a scenario that has not been suggested, debated and wondered about in online forums and, no doubt, at the Princely Court of Monte Carlo. Albert ended his 5-year relationship with Mlle Coste only after introducing her to his father at a restaurant and evoking an appalled reaction from Rainier III which was visible/audible to other diners. She got pregnant months after that break-up, during a "for-old-times-sake" tryst, Albert didn't marry for another six years, and is only now expecting a child by his wife. Albert's been admirably -- if belatedly -- candid about it. FactStraight (talk) 20:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a monarchy with silly laws..... Just think of what would happen if Albert II would endeavor to do that...Gerard von Hebel (talk) 22:48, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Lead
If someone was to stumble across this article without prior knowledge of the topic, like I did, it would be beneficial to be clearer in the lead than we are at present. . -- Zanimum (talk) 03:20, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You are right. Is the lead better now? Surtsicna (talk) 21:14, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks! --  Zanimum (talk) 01:33, 17 October 2017 (UTC) Zanimum (talk) 01:33, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Religious Test
Does the Sovereign Prince have to be Roman Catholic?187.73.191.2 (talk) 13:10, 2 April 2021 (UTC)


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Yoker Athletic F.C.

Yoker Athletic Football Club are a Scottish football club based in Clydebank near Glasgow. Yoker is an area of Glasgow adjacent to Clydebank, however Yoker's stadium lies just outside the Glasgow boundary. Nicknamed the Whe Ho, the club were formed in 1886 and are based at Holm Park. The club currently operate in the and play in royal blue or orange strips.

Local rivals Clydebank entered the Junior grade in 2003–04 and ground shared with Yoker at Holm Park from 2008 until 2018 after leaving their ground in Duntocher. Yoker were promoted to Central Division One on 23 April 2011 after an 8–0 victory over Newmains United.

The team was co-managed since January 2019 by Peter McKenna and Tommy Montgomery, Gordon Robertson took over as manager in 2022.

Yoker Athletic can boast of a mention in Scottish literature and film; James Kelman's novel, A Disaffection, has the main character attending a match at Holm Park, while the club is also mentioned briefly in an episode of Scottish cult classic Limmy's Show.

Ground
The club play at Holm Park which they share with Clydebank. It is a council-owned ground with floodlights and a synthetic pitch.

Honours

 * Scottish Junior Cup
 * Winners: 1932–33
 * Runners-up: 1935–36, 2021-22
 * Central League Division 1
 * Runners-up (Promoted to Super First): 2011–12

 * Central League Second Division
 * Winners: 2010–11

 * Central League Division Two
 * Winners: 1988–89

Other honours

 * West of Scotland Cup winners: 1930–31
 * Glasgow Dryburgh Cup: 1947–48
 * Central (Beatons Coaches) Sectional League Cup: 1985–86
 * Central League Cup - Runners-up 2016–17

title: Yoker Athletic F.C.


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