text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ryan Schwehr

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. Postdlf 00:15, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Ryan Schwehr
Non-notable college athlete.

From the people who brought you Bryan Schwor, Silly Goose Productions, Mark Soissons, and Neil Vanos...

''Ryan "Cameron" Schwehr (1984-) is a semi-famous NCAA runner. He is an NCAA Cross-Country and Track runner from Spokane, Washington. The no-budget movie Bryan Schwor is loosely based on him.''

I say, delete this latest vanity attack. --Calton | Talk 12:06, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete unless there is some evidence of him achieving a high level finish (e.g. top 3) in a national level competition (e.g. NCAA championships). Average Earthman 16:28, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. "Vanity attack" pretty much sums it up for me.  We got Schwor, we got Schwehr, we got a user with very selective ideas on the rules of this site.  Sheesh.  These articles are formatted, wikied and even have photos.  Seems he missed the part about no self-promotion. - Lucky 6.9 22:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. "unless there is some evidence of him achieving a high level finish (e.g. top 3) in a national level competition..." []--Jim8675309 23:10, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Note: User had 11 edits before this one: 6 to Bryan Schwor-related pages, 2 to Votes for deletion/Mark Soissons, and 3 to his own user page.--Calton | Talk 05:29, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) (this comment deleted by User:152.163.100.138
 * Delete in spite of that (or put on a list somewhere) until he reaches olympic level. For reason that there are zillions of colleges and each has its own athletes. Radiant_* 09:00, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep For his own sake he does not specifically warrant an article, but due to his relation to the Bryan Schwor movie it is worth keeping. --168.212.165.131 17:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * You mean the doomed article with the sock-puppet-infested Vote for Deletion? --Calton | Talk 01:01, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe the rule should be this: so long as the Schwor article is up, the Ryan Schwehr article should remain. If anything, he is the only personal affiliated with the film to have noteworthy accomplishments. --Fritz9000 06:46, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, vanity (anon user deleted my vote from here). Megan1967 05:39, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-notable. --Dcfleck 14:45, 2005 Apr 24 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Category:Cities in Hainan

Cities in Hainan province include:

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category:Cities in Hainan


text:
Chlormethine

Chlormethine (INN, BAN), also known as mechlorethamine (USAN, USP), mustine, HN2, and (in post-Soviet states) embikhin (эмбихин), is a nitrogen mustard sold under the brand name Mustargen among others. It is the prototype of alkylating agents, a group of anticancer chemotherapeutic drugs. It works by binding to DNA, crosslinking two strands and preventing cell duplication. It binds to the N7 nitrogen on the DNA base guanine. As the chemical is a blister agent, its use is strongly restricted within the Chemical Weapons Convention where it is classified as a Schedule 1 substance.

Mechlorethamine belongs to the group of nitrogen mustard alkylating agents.

Uses
It has been derivatized into the estrogen analogue estramustine phosphate, used to treat prostate cancer. It can also be used in chemical warfare where it has the code-name HN2. This chemical is a form of nitrogen mustard gas and a powerful vesicant. Historically, some uses of mechlorethamine have included lymphoid malignancies such as Hodgkin's disease, lymphosarcoma, chronic myelocytic leukemia, polycythemia vera, and bronchogenic carcinoma Mechlorethamine is often administered intravenously, but when compounded into a topical formulation it can also be used to treat skin diseases. There have been studies demonstrating that topical administration of mechlorethamine has efficacy in mycosis fungoides-type cutaneous T cell lymphoma.

Another use of chlormethine is in the synthesis of pethidine (meperidine).

Side effects and toxicity
Mechlorethamine is a highly toxic medication, especially for women who are pregnant, breastfeeding, or of childbearing age. At high enough levels, exposure can be fatal.

The adverse effects of mechlorethamine depend on the formulation. When used in chemical warfare, it can cause immunosuppression and damage to mucous membranes of the eyes, skin, and respiratory tract. Mucous membranes and damp or damaged skin are more affected by exposure to HN-2. Though symptoms of exposure are generally delayed, the DNA damage it causes occurs very quickly. More serious exposures cause symptoms to develop sooner. Eye symptoms develop first, in the first 1–2 hours (severe exposure) or 3–12 hours (mild to moderate exposure) followed by airway (2-6/12–24 hours) and skin symptoms (6–48 hours). Hot, humid weather shortens the latent (symptom-free) period.

Symptoms of toxic exposure to HN-2 vary based on the route of exposure. Eye exposure causes lacrimation (tear production), burning, irritation, itching, a feeling of grittiness or dryness, blepharospasm (spasms of the eyelid), and miosis (pinpoint pupils). More severe cases cause edema (swelling from fluid accumulation) in the eyelids, photophobia (extreme sensitivity to light), severe pain, corneal ulceration, and blindness.

Inhalation of chlormethine damages the upper and lower airways sequentially, with more severe exposures causing faster damage that afflicts lower parts of the respiratory tract. Early symptoms include rhinorrhea (runny nose), epistaxis (nosebleed), toneless voice, sneezing, barking cough, and dyspnea (in smokers and asthmatics). Later symptoms include pain in the nose/sinuses and inflammation of the airway. In severe cases, there may be epithelial necrosis throughout the respiratory tract, causing pseudomembrane formation, which can obstruct the airway. Pneumonia may develop and prove fatal.

Skin exposure mainly causes erythema (redness) and vesication (blistering) at first, but absorption through the skin causes systemic toxicity. In cases where more than 25% of the skin is affected, fatal exposure is likely to have occurred.

Though ingestion is uncommon, if mechlorethamine is swallowed it causes severe chemical burns to the gastrointestinal tract and concomitant nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, and hemorrhage.

Long-term effects of acute or chronic chlormethine exposure are caused by damage to the immune system. White blood cell counts drop, increasing the risk of infection, and red blood cell and platelet counts may also drop due to bone marrow damage. Chronic eye infections may result from exposure, but blindness is temporary. Long-term effects on the respiratory system include anosmia (inability to smell), ageusia (inability to taste), inflammation, chronic infections, fibrosis, and cancer. Skin that has been damaged by HN2 can change pigmentation or become scarred, and may eventually develop cancer.

History
The effect of vesicant (blister) agents in the form of mustard gas (sulfur mustard, Bis(2-chloroethyl) sulfide) on bone marrow and white blood cells had been known since the First World War. In 1935 several lines of chemical and biological research yielded results that would be explored after the start of the Second World War. The vesicant action of a family of chemicals related to the sulfur mustards, but with nitrogen substituting for sulfur was discovered—the "nitrogen mustards" were born. The particular nitrogen mustard chlormethine (mechlorethamine) was first synthesized. And the action of sulfur mustard on tumors in laboratory animals was investigated for the first time.

After the US entry into the Second World War the nitrogen mustards were candidate chemical warfare agents and research on them was initiated by the Office of Scientific Research and Development (OSRD). The OSRD let contracts to study them to two universities—Yale University and the University of Chicago. Inspired perhaps by the preliminary research in 1935, independently both groups thought to test whether a medically useful differential toxicity between animals and animal tumors existed. The Yale pharmacologists Louis Goodman and Alfred Gilman were the first to conduct a clinical trial, on 27 August 1942, using the agent HN3 (tris(2-chloroethyl)amine) on a patient known as J.D.

The next year the Chicago group, led by Leon O. Jacobson, conducted trials with HN2 (chlormethine) which was the only agent in this group to see eventual clinical use. Wartime secrecy prevented any of this ground-breaking work on chemotherapy from being published, but papers were released once wartime secrecy ended, in 1946.

Chemistry
Chlormethine is combustible and becomes explosive under extreme conditions. It can react with metals to form gaseous hydrogen.

title: Chlormethine


text:
Talk:Clayton Township, Genesee County, Michigan

where does clayton end so i can avoid all those cops?
 * lol - yeah, ever since the new police department and millage (for a small township - that's Rod Shumaker's supervising for you), the cops have been busting speeders like nobody's business. I got a ticket last summer. I'm not bitter, though - the cops and politicians there are my friends (just not enough to get out of a ticket). DDerby 00:19, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 one external links on Clayton Township, Genesee County, Michigan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130911234518/http://factfinder2.census.gov to http://factfinder2.census.gov
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/66gupqQDM?url=http%3A%2F%2Fviewer.nationalmap.gov%2Fviewer%2F to http://viewer.nationalmap.gov/viewer/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 05:22, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


text:
User talk:Agathinus

I was a sockpuppet of user:Iasson but I am not any longer.

212.137.57.25 12:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Agathinus


text:
Turbidity current

A turbidity current is most typically an underwater current of usually rapidly moving, sediment-laden water moving down a slope; although current research (2018) indicates that water-saturated sediment may be the primary actor in the process. Turbidity currents can also occur in other fluids besides water.

Researchers from the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute found that a layer of water-saturated sediment moved rapidly over the seafloor and mobilized the upper few meters of the preexisting seafloor. Plumes of sediment-laden water were observed during turbidity current events but they believe that these were secondary to the pulse of the seafloor sediment moving during the events. The belief of the researchers is that the water flow is the tail-end of the process that starts at the seafloor.

In the most typical case of oceanic turbidity currents, sediment laden waters situated over sloping ground will flow down-hill because they have a higher density than the adjacent waters. The driving force behind a turbidity current is gravity acting on the high density of the sediments temporarily suspended within a fluid. These semi-suspended solids make the average density of the sediment bearing water greater than that of the surrounding, undisturbed water.

As such currents flow, they often have a "snow-balling-effect", as they stir up the ground over which they flow, and gather even more sedimentary particles in their current. Their passage leaves the ground over which they flow scoured and eroded. Once an oceanic turbidity current reaches the calmer waters of the flatter area of the abyssal plain (main oceanic floor), the particles borne by the current settle out of the water column. The sedimentary deposit of a turbidity current is called a turbidite.

Seafloor turbidity currents are often the result of sediment-laden river outflows, and can sometimes be initiated by earthquakes, slumping and other soil disturbances. They are characterized by a well-defined advance-front, also known as the current's head, and are followed by the current's main body. In terms of the more often observed and more familiar above sea-level phenomenon, they somewhat resemble flash floods. Turbidity currents can sometimes result from submarine seismic instability, which is common with steep underwater slopes, and especially with submarine trench slopes of convergent plate margins, continental slopes and submarine canyons of passive margins. With an increasing continental shelf slope, current velocity increases, as the velocity of the flow increases, turbulence increases, and the current draws up more sediment. The increase in sediment also adds to the density of the current, and thus increases its velocity even further.

Definition
Turbidity currents are traditionally defined as those sediment gravity flows in which sediment is suspended by fluid turbulence. However, the term "turbidity current" was adopted to describe a natural phenomenon whose exact nature is often unclear. The turbulence within a turbidity current is not always the support mechanism that keeps the sediment in suspension; however it is probable that turbulence is the primary or sole grain support mechanism in dilute currents (<3%). Definitions are further complicated by an incomplete understanding of the turbulence structure within turbidity currents, and the confusion between the terms turbulent (i.e. disturbed by eddies) and turbid (i.e. opaque with sediment). Kneller & Buckee, 2000 define a suspension current as 'flow induced by the action of gravity upon a turbid mixture of fluid and (suspended) sediment, by virtue of the density difference between the mixture and the ambient fluid'. A turbidity current is a suspension current in which the interstitial fluid is a liquid (generally water); a pyroclastic current is one in which the interstitial fluid is gas.

Hyperpycnal plume
When the concentration of suspended sediment at the mouth of a river is so large that the density of river water is greater than the density of sea water a particular kind of turbidity current can form called a hyperpycnal plume. The average concentration of suspended sediment for most river water that enters the ocean is much lower than the sediment concentration needed for entry as a hyperpycnal plume. Although some rivers can often have continuously high sediment load that can create a continuous hyperpycnal plume, such as the Haile River (China), which has an average suspended concentration of 40.5 kg/m3. The sediment concentration needed to produce a hyperpycnal plume in marine water is 35 to 45 kg/m3, depending on the water properties within the coastal zone. Most rivers produce hyperpycnal flows only during exceptional events, such as storms, floods, glacier outbursts, dam breaks, and lahar flows. In fresh water environments, such as lakes, the suspended sediment concentration needed to produce a hyperpycnal plume is quite low (1 kg/m3).

Sedimentation in reservoirs
The transport and deposition of the sediments in narrow alpine reservoirs is often caused by turbidity currents. They follow the thalweg of the lake to the deepest area near the dam, where the sediments can affect the operation of the bottom outlet and the intake structures. Controlling this sedimentation within the reservoir can be achieved by using solid and permeable obstacles with the right design.

Earthquake triggering
Turbidity currents are often triggered by tectonic disturbances of the sea floor. The displacement of continental crust in the form of fluidization and physical shaking both contribute to their formation. Earthquakes have been linked to turbidity current deposition in many settings, particularly where physiography favors preservation of the deposits and limits the other sources of turbidity current deposition. Since the famous case of breakage of submarine cables by a turbidity current following the 1929 Grand Banks earthquake, earthquake triggered turbidites have been investigated and verified along the Cascadia subduction Zone, the Northern San Andreas Fault, a number of European, Chilean and North American lakes,  Japanese lacustrine and offshore regions  and a variety of other settings.

Canyon-flushing
When large turbidity currents flow into canyons they may become self-sustaining, and may entrain sediment that has previously been introduced into the canyon by littoral drift, storms or smaller turbidity currents. Canyon-flushing associated with surge-type currents initiated by slope failures may produce currents whose final volume may be several times that of the portion of the slope that has failed (e.g. Grand Banks).

Slumping
Sediment that has piled up at the top of the continental slope, particularly at the heads of submarine canyons can create turbidity current due to overloading, thus consequent slumping and sliding.

Convective sedimentation beneath river plumes
A buoyant sediment-laden river plume can induce a secondary turbidity current on the ocean floor by the process of convective sedimentation. Sediment in the initially buoyant hypopycnal flow accumulates at the base of the surface flow, so that the dense lower boundary become unstable. The resulting convective sedimentation leads to a rapid vertical transfer of material to the sloping lake or ocean bed, potentially forming a secondary turbidity current. The vertical speed of the convective plumes can be much greater than the Stokes settling velocity of an individual particle of sediment. Most examples of this process have been made in the laboratory, but possible observational evidence of a secondary turbidity current was made in Howe Sound, British Columbia, where a turbidity current was periodically observed on the delta of the Squamish River. As the vast majority of sediment laden rivers are less dense than the ocean, rivers cannot readily form plunging hyperpycnal flows. Hence convective sedimentation is an important possible initiation mechanism for turbidity currents.

Effect on ocean floor
Large and fast-moving turbidity currents can carve gulleys and ravines into the ocean floor of continental margins and cause damage to artificial structures such as telecommunication cables on the seafloor. Understanding where turbidity currents flow on the ocean floor can help to decrease the amount of damage to telecommunication cables by avoiding these areas or reinforcing the cables in vulnerable areas.

When turbidity currents interact with regular ocean currents, such as contour currents, they can change their direction. This ultimately shifts submarine canyons and sediment deposition locations. One example of this is located in the western part of the Gulf of Cadiz, where the ocean current leaving the Mediterranean Sea (also known as the Mediterranean outflow water) pushes turbidity currents westward. This has changed the shape of submarine valleys and canyons in the region to also curve in that direction.

Deposits
When the energy of a turbidity current lowers, its ability to keep suspended sediment decreases, thus sediment deposition occurs. When the material comes to rest, it is the sand and other coarse material which settles first followed by mud and eventually the very fine particulate matter. It is this sequence of deposition that creates the so called Bouma sequences that characterize turbidite deposits.

Because turbidity currents occur underwater and happen suddenly, they are rarely seen as they happen in nature, thus turbidites can be used to determine turbidity current characteristics. Some examples: grain size can give indication of current velocity, grain lithology and the use of foraminifera for determining origins, grain distribution shows flow dynamics over time and sediment thickness indicates sediment load and longevity.

Turbidites are commonly used in the understanding of past turbidity currents, for example, the Peru-Chile Trench off Southern Central Chile (36°S–39°S) contains numerous turbidite layers that were cored and analysed. From these turbidites the predicted history of turbidity currents in this area was determined, increasing the overall understanding of these currents.

Antidune deposits
Some of the largest antidunes on Earth are formed by turbidity currents. One observed sediment-wave field is located on the lower continental slope off Guyana, South America. This sediment-wave field covers an area of at least 29 000 km2 at a water depth of 4400–4825 meters. These antidunes have wavelengths of 110–2600 m and wave heights of 1–15 m. Turbidity currents responsible for wave generation are interpreted as originating from slope failures on the adjacent Venezuela, Guyana and Suriname continental margins. Simple numerical modelling has been enabled to determine turbidity current flow characteristics across the sediment waves to be estimated: internal Froude number = 0.7–1.1, flow thickness = 24–645 m, and flow velocity = 31–82 cm·s−1. Generally, on lower gradients beyond minor breaks of slope, flow thickness increases and flow velocity decreases, leading to an increase in wavelength and a decrease in height.

Reversing buoyancy
The behaviour of turbidity currents with buoyant fluid (such as currents with warm, fresh or brackish interstitial water entering the sea) has been investigated to find that the front speed decreases more rapidly than that of currents with the same density as the ambient fluid. These turbidity currents ultimately come to a halt as sedimentation results in a reversal of buoyancy, and the current lifts off, the point of lift-off remaining constant for a constant discharge. The lofted fluid carries fine sediment with it, forming a plume that rises to a level of neutral buoyancy (if in a stratified environment) or to the water surface, and spreads out. Sediment falling from the plume produces a widespread fall-out deposit, termed hemiturbidite. Experimental turbidity currents and field observations suggest that the shape of the lobe deposit formed by a lofting plume is narrower than for a similar non-lofting plume

Prediction
Prediction of erosion by turbidity currents, and of the distribution of turbidite deposits, such as their extent, thickness and grain size distribution, requires an understanding of the mechanisms of sediment transport and deposition, which in turn depends on the fluid dynamics of the currents.

The extreme complexity of most turbidite systems and beds has promoted the development of quantitative models of turbidity current behaviour inferred solely from their deposits. Small-scale laboratory experiments therefore offer one of the best means of studying their dynamics. Mathematical models can also provide significant insights into current dynamics. In the long term, numerical techniques are most likely the best hope of understanding and predicting three-dimensional turbidity current processes and deposits. In most cases, there are more variables than governing equations, and the models rely upon simplifying assumptions in order to achieve a result. The accuracy of the individual models thus depends upon the validity and choice of the assumptions made. Experimental results provide a means of constraining some of these variables as well as providing a test for such models. Physical data from field observations, or more practical from experiments, are still required in order to test the simplifying assumptions necessary in mathematical models. Most of what is known about large natural turbidity currents (i.e. those significant in terms of sediment transfer to the deep sea) is inferred from indirect sources, such as submarine cable breaks and heights of deposits above submarine valley floors. Although during the 2003 Tokachi-oki earthquake a large turbidity current was observed by the cabled observatory which provided direct observations, which is rarely achieved.

Oil exploration
Oil and gas companies are also interested in turbidity currents because the currents deposit organic matter that over geologic time gets buried, compressed and transformed into hydrocarbons. The use of numerical modelling and flumes are commonly used to help understand these questions. Much of the modelling is used to reproduce the physical processes which govern turbidity current behaviour and deposits.

Shallow-water models
The so-called depth-averaged or shallow-water models are initially introduced for compositional gravity currents and then later extended to turbidity currents. The typical assumptions used along with the shallow-water models are: hydrostatic pressure field, clear fluid is not entrained (or detrained), and particle concentration does not depend on the vertical location. Considering the ease of implementation, these models can typically predict flow characteristic such as front location or front speed in simplified geometries, e.g. rectangular channels, fairly accurately.

Depth-resolved models
With the increase in computational power, depth-resolved models have become a powerful tool to study gravity and turbidity currents. These models, in general, are mainly focused on the solution of the Navier-Stokes equations for the fluid phase. With dilute suspension of particles, a Eulerian approach proved to be accurate to describe the evolution of particles in terms of a continuum particle concentration field. Under these models, no such assumptions as shallow-water models are needed and, therefore, accurate calculations and measurements are performed to study these currents. Measurements such as, pressure field, energy budgets, vertical particle concentration and accurate deposit heights are a few to mention. Both Direct numerical simulation (DNS) and Turbulence modeling are used to model these currents.

Notable examples of turbidity currents

 * Within minutes after the 1929 Grand Banks earthquake occurred off the coast of Newfoundland, transatlantic telephone cables began breaking sequentially, farther and farther downslope, away from the epicenter. Twelve cables were snapped in a total of 28 places. Exact times and locations were recorded for each break. Investigators suggested that an estimated 60 mile per hour (100 km/h) submarine landslide or turbidity current of water saturated sediments swept 400 miles (600 km) down the continental slope from the earthquake's epicenter, snapping the cables as it passed. Subsequent research of this event have shown that continental slope sediment failures mostly occurred below 650 meter water depth.  The slumping that occurred in shallow waters (5–25 meters) passed down slope into turbidity currents that evolved ignitively. The turbidity currents had sustained flow for many hours due to the delayed retrogressive failure and transformation of debris flows into turbidity currents through hydraulic jumps.
 * The Cascadia subduction zone, off the northwestern coast of North America, has a record of earthquake triggered turbidites that is well-correlated to other evidence of earthquakes recorded in coastal bays and lakes during the Holocene.     Forty–one Holocene turbidity currents have been correlated along all or part of the approximately 1000 km long plate boundary stretching from northern California to mid-Vancouver island.  The correlations are based on radiocarbon ages and subsurface stratigraphic methods. The inferred recurrence interval of Cascadia great earthquakes is approximately 500 years along the northern margin, and approximately 240 years along the southern margin.
 * Taiwan is a hot spot for submarine turbidity currents as there are large amounts of sediment suspended in rivers, and it is seismically active, thus large accumulation of seafloor sediments and earthquake triggering. During the 2006 Pingtung earthquake off SW Taiwan, eleven submarine cables across the Kaoping canyon and Manila Trench were broken in sequence from 1500 to 4000 m deep, as a consequence of the associated turbidity currents.  From the timing of each cable break the velocity of the current was determined to have a positive relationship with bathymetric slope. Current velocities were 20 m/s on the steepest slopes and 3.7 m/s on the shallowest slopes.
 * One of the earliest observations of a turbidity currents was by François-Alphonse Forel. In the late 1800s he made detailed observations of the plunging of the Rhône river into Lake Geneva at Port Valais. These papers were possibly the earliest identification of a turbidity current and he discussed how the submarine channel formed from the delta. In this freshwater lake, it is primarily the cold water that leads to plunging of the inflow. The sediment load by itself is generally not high enough to overcome the summer thermal stratification in Lake Geneva.
 * The longest turbidity current ever recorded occurred in January 2020 and flowed for 1100 km through the Congo Canyon over the course of two days, damaging two submarine communications cables. The current was a result of sediment deposited by the 2019–2020 Congo River floods.

title: Turbidity current


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gerald T. Watkins Jr.

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was UNANIMOUS DELETE. Postdlf 00:17, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Gerald T. Watkins Jr.
Delete. Non-notable, vanity. -- P Ingerson 12:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Vanity, non-notable, no stated achievements of any kind whatsoever. Average Earthman 16:26, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * del nonnotable  —msh210 16:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, possible vanity. Megan1967 05:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Sweetin

Sweetin can refer to two American actresses:

 * Jodie Sweetin, best known for her role as Stephanie Tanner on Full house and Fuller House
 * Madylin Sweeten, who played Ally Barone on Everybody Loves Raymond

title: Sweetin


text:
Ocypode

Ocypode is a genus of ghost crabs found in the sandy shores of tropical and subtropical regions throughout the world. They have a box-like body, thick and elongated eyestalks, and one claw is larger than the other in both males and females. They inhabit deep burrows in the intertidal zone. They are primarily nocturnal, and are generalist scavengers and predators of small animals. The genus contains 21 species.

Taxonomy
The genus Ocypode was first established by the German entomologist Friedrich Weber in 1795, using the type species Cancer ceratophthalmus described by the German naturalist Peter Simon Pallas in 1772.

Ocypode was previously the only genus classified under the ghost crab subfamily Ocypodinae until 2013, when Katsushi Sakai and Michael Türkay reclassified the gulf ghost crab into a separate genus, Hoplocypode. It belongs to the family Ocypodidae. Ghost crabs of the genus Hoplocypode can be distinguished from those in Ocypode by examining their gonopods. In the former, the first gonopod has a complex hoof-shaped tip, while in the latter they are simple and curved.

Description
Ocypode ghost crabs have deep box-like bodies. The regions on the carapace are usually not clearly defined. They have thick and elongated eyestalks with the cornea occupying most of the lower portion. The eyestalks are also tipped with horn-like projections (styles) in seven species (Ocypode brevicornis, O. ceratophthalma, O. gaudichaudii, O. macrocera, O. mortoni, O. rotundata, and O. saratan), though these may be shorter or even absent altogether in juvenile specimens. In O. cursor the eyestalks are tipped with a tuft of bristles (setae). The eyestalks are held vertically when the crab is active. Most species have pale-colored bodies that blend in well with the sand, though they are capable of gradually changing body coloration to match their environment and the time of day.

The claw-bearing legs (chelipeds) of both sexes are unequal in size, with one much larger than the other. The palm of the claws also possess stridulating (sound-producing) ridges which they use for communication. These ridges are also important morphological characters useful for identifying species. The chelipeds are shorter than the walking legs. The last pair of walking legs (pereiopods) is also usually shorter and thinner than the other pairs of walking legs. A cavity, with edges fringed by long setae are also found in between the bases of the second and third walking legs.

Ecology
Ocypode ghost crabs construct simple to complex deep burrows in soft sandy and/or muddy substrates. They can be found in sandy beaches, rubble flats, and in estuarine areas. They are nocturnal and are generalist scavengers and predators of small animals.

Distribution
Ocypode ghost crabs are found in tropical and subtropical regions throughout the world. Three species are found in the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea and one in the eastern Pacific coast of the Americas. The rest of the species are found in the western Pacific and the Indian Ocean to the tip of southern Africa.

Species
Ocypode currently contains 21 valid species. The ghost crab formerly known as O. occidentalis was transferred to its own genus Hoplocypode in 2013. O. longicornuta, O. platytarsis, O. pygoides and O. sinensis were determined to be synonyms of O. ceratophthalma, O. brevicornis, O. convexa and O. cordimanus respectively.

title: Ocypode


text:
Talk:Salma Yaqoob

Layout
I've just changed the layout a little to break it up and have added a few facts. 12th April 2006 UK 007

Better picture
Isn't the toronto picture better then this naff mug shot? The mug shot shows us what she looks like, but the Toronto pic' does that and shows her campaining. Also what is the copyright status of both the images?--JK the unwise 12:15, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You may be right. I posted both pictures and have been wieghing the pros and cons of each. Don't concern yourself about copyright status. I would not post them if they infringed copyright.

Cool. Could you please specify the licence of the file by adding the appropriate tag(s) to the image description page. See Image copyright tags.--JK the unwise 09:01, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Do we need the little picture, its a little grainy thing taken from a wide shot (I took it). Does it add anything?--JK the unwise 07:56, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I donno, why not? For me it adds a great deal, putting her in a much more likeable light. Frankly, she looks way better in the pic you took (I am assuming you took it?) than the other, despite the difference in professionalism. Sam Spade 11:44, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Yep I took it. Some else zoomed it. Here is the wide shot they made it from. I think its a waste of Wikipedia memory space, though someone recently informed me that bytes are as cheap as chips so maby I shouldn't shouldn't worry about that. Not sure attractivness should be a certeria for pictures. There is a third pic that was in at one stage as discused above, it's probally better then the grainy zoomed one. Its an election mug shot, not sure about its copy right status maby usable under the promophoto copyright tag.--JK the unwise 14:01, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Nothing personal, I just like your pic way better (the zoomed in one tho). Sam Spade 14:19, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The picture in question has now been replaced by a better picture (Image:Salma yaqoob smiling.jpg) so I'm putting the old one up for deletion.--JK the unwise 14:35, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I have some pictures of Salma that I took myself. But I'm new to Wiki so would appreciate some help in getting them up. --Charliewbrown (talk) 14:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Time and place of arrests
Did this take place in Sana'a, Republic of Yemen, or Amman, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan? Needs correcting -- Amman is definitely NOT the capital of Yemen. BTW, "...during Christmas in Yemen..." is confusing, since Christmas is not celebrated or even noticed in Yemen. Better to say "late December" and provide a year. --RandallC 11:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Her local community
"Despite differing views within her local community, her father was determined to support his children's education" We need a citation for that (especially regarding "despite... views with her local..." Faro0485 (talk) 13:13, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Not just citation, clarification. What does it *mean*? That some people in the local community were opposed to children being educated? Or what? PrivateSponge (talk) 22:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Libellous repeat addition to the page
Someone keeps adding a PDF to the article as evidence of extreme views. However, the article comes from a filesharing website, there is no indication it comes from the magazine it is claimed it is sourced from, and the author's name does not even match Salma Yaqoob's. If she can be shown to be the author of the article, by all means, add it. Otherwise, it's extremely poorly sourced, libellous content. Please do not re-add it until its incorporation can be justified on the discussion page. 90.219.33.76 (talk) 22:21, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I have confirmed with two researchers into British Islamist politics that the article on the Islamic Republic of Britain was written by Yaqoob. I have also confirmed that Salma Yaqoob was involved in the Abu Hamza/Yemen campaign.

[Bukhari] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bukhari (talk • contribs) 10:05, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Citations and sources
A lot of the information on this entry is poorly sourced. I'm sure some of it can be verified using reliable sources but much of it doesn't seem to have any corresponding evidence anywhere and might be deliberate vandalism. I'll have a look to see if I can fix up somne of the erroneous claims and put some genuine sources where applicable. 94.0.107.216 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:37, 28 February 2010 (UTC).

I have removed an entire paragraph and sentence from the 'activism' and 'politics' sections. Citation tags have been in place for months now and there are no available citations or reliable (in fact, any) sources of the information that was stated. To prevent libel, it has been removed. If any reliable sources can actually be found, then it can be reinstated. Thanks. 94.0.228.116 (talk)

I have removed the following unverifiable text from the entry itself as it has no RELIABLE sources as per Wikipedia guidelines. I will leave the text here for future reference and to ensure it isn't re-inserted without reliable sources, as this could be considered libellous. This text has been rpeatedly removed by various users and editors before so is probably propaganda.

''She had been involved in the 'Justice for the Yemen Seven' campaign after her family became embroiled in the proceedings. This campaign was to support seven (later, eight) British Muslims who were accused by the Yemeni authorities for terrorist activities in its capital Sana'a in December 1998. After their conviction, protests and lobbying in Britain eventually resulted in release of most of them. Those detained in Yemen included both the son and the stepson of the radical Islamist preacher, Abu Hamza al-Masri who is currently serving a seven-year prison sentence for soliciting murder and inciting racial hatred.''

''Yaqoob also wrote an article a magazine, Trends, edited by Inayat Bunglawala, which imagined an Islamic Republic of Great Britain. The article concluded with the author Salman Rushdie fleeing the country. ''

This text SHOULD NOT be re-inserted without reliable third party sources. The first link in this copy directs you to a web hosting site and a word document with no connection to any offiical organisation, it might as well have been written by a user. The second is a pdf of an article which doesn't cite it's magazine source, is not linked to an official magazine site and, although it is claimed to be written by the subject (Salma Yaqoob), the author's name on the document is different and therefore inadmissable without additional verification. 86.128.217.153 (talk)

Respect vs Respect Unity Coalition
According to the Sunday Mercury's list of candidates, Salma Yaqoob is standing for the "Respect - Unity Coalition". Does anyone know a better source for what will be on the ballot paper? Will it say "Respect" or "Respect Unity Coalition" or "RESPECT"? Only a minor point but good to get it right.

Linkino (talk) 11:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Notable Media Appearances
There are only 250 people a year appearing on Question Time, and it's a prestigious debate programme. 5 Appearances on this since 2006 seems notable, so I have included them here. Can anyone fill in more about the topics discussed?

The Guardian article is an obvious candidate for inclusion as it is long and solely focussed on the subject of the page.

Linkino (talk) 11:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Mention has been added to this section of an unofficial appearance by Salma Yaqoob on Question Time in the days after 9/11. The link provided as reliable source is http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2234238 but not only has this page been created after this entry and therefore us unadmissable as a reliable source but it doesn't even mention her Sept 11 appearance. UK 007 (talk) 22:22, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

UK General Election
The information that Salma Yaqoob is standing in the forthcoming parliamentary elections was missing. Is there some Wiki-rule I'm not aware of which explains why this was missing? Or was it just an oversight?

Linkino (talk) 11:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

POI - Holding the highest honour available to a group doesn't mean that person is the most decorated person within that group.Marty jar (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:52, 4 February 2011 (UTC).

Controversy
Her actions have been hugely controversial, added info with several national newspaper references.87.114.229.119 (talk) 21:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

 * An editor removed an earlier amendment for the same reason - that it's already covered. I don't think quoting several political opponents is appropriate - that gets into extremely clear NPOV issues. The positions of both sides are stated as it stands, and could perhaps be expanded, but previous amendments haven't been NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marty jar (talk • contribs) 22:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As above - unless you form a reasonable and logical justification for any expansion, there's currently no way of avoiding the massive NPOV issues. You're quoting entirely partisan political opponents at great length, and not the reply, which is unacceptable. You're quoting poor sources, and all of this is an addition to a section which already represents the POV you're expressing. Marty jar (talk) 02:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

 * As stated, the event is covered within the 'Activism' section. It can be seen as controversial by some, and activism by others; however the 'Activism' section does provide both points of view and is adequately referenced. Stephenjh (talk) 10:05, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, if as you say, it is "Seen as controversial by some and activism by others", then why have you removed the word "Controversy" from the "Activism" section?

 * Actually, I didn't remove it. Check the page history properly. Stephenjh (talk) 14:44, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Her actions, barely alluded to in the article, have been received with massive controversy considering the puny standing of the Respect party in regards to power. I can give you a sackload of references from National newspapers and news channels all attesting to this. I can also give you a sackload of quotes from other British politicians literally condemning her actions. The section as it stands reveals nothing of this. Who describes it as 'activism'? Compare this to the vast majority who describe it as controversial (at best). The section here cannot be possibly seen as adequate. You would surely agree that at the very least, the section should be renamed "Activism and Controversy"? 87.114.229.119 (talk) 12:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

 * I changed that as it's an unnecessarily unwieldy title. Two separate short sections may be more appropriate. Marty jar (talk) 12:51, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, noone actually names the section about the standing ovation incident as 'Activism' so there's no point challenging that. The activism section was already present. Someone simply decided to add the controversy to that Activism section. By rights, if you wish to add a 'Controversy' section, do so separately but please respect NPOV at all time - having checked there is around the same amount of opinion, articles and comment out there condemining Yaqoob as commending her. Although, that which criticises her seems to be from tabloids while those neutral or in support seem to be from more reputable sources including the BBC, Birmingham Post and Birmingham Mail. After all, much of the criticism against her is steeped excessively in the reporting of one comment made by a councillor Martin Mullaney of Birmingham City Council, who had been reprimanded for his comments. UK 007 (talk) 14:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I have added the BBC ref to this and made a controversy section Gaius Octavius Princeps (talk) 19:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

 * I mentioned above that I removed the Activism and Controversy title as it was unwieldy. The Controversy section is rather high up the page, but a better solution. The Activism section may need to be bumped up at some point. Marty jar (talk) 20:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe that the "Express and Star" should be the only source for this when their are BBC, SKY, Telegraph and Times sources out there. I added the BBC ref, but it was removedGaius Octavius Princeps (talk) 21:36, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed the BBC source because it was used to substantiate the addition of the word "deliberate" to the description of Yaqoob's actions as "disrespectful", though the source cited did not use either of these terns. Nor did it describe this incident as a controversy, the other term it was used to justify. I have no objection to addition of the source itself, but I certainly object to its misleading use. RolandR (talk) 23:38, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Well now the Activism section looks pointless. Two sentences and nothing about activist activities at all. Stephenjh (talk) 23:43, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Okay, before every other person attacks this article with a butchers knife and ruins the perfectly good formatting that has been maintained on this entry over the last few years which has been progressive and neutral, a few things need clarification.

Prior to this recent incident about the soldier, the 9/11 information was included under 'activism' and should remain there as it includes information about her view of 9/11 in retrospect of being a victim of 9/11 backlash. She did receive criticism over the phrase 'reprisal attacks' much much later but not at the time and has also received praise for the comments, depending on how people view them and in which context. To now add 'she was criticised' in not NPOV as she follows by making it clear she does not support the perpatrators within the same speech.

The more recent material should remain under controversy but should be kept as basic facts and people can make up their own minds. This may still have to be edited down to simplify it with facts and verifiable sources, not selective sources. The facts aren't that difficult.

Also, just because some people were more passionately moved by the recent incident or even more aware of it, it doesn't mean it requires a great deal of attention within this entry as a number of incidents and events surrounding Salma, both perceived as highly positive and negative are available in mainstream media, many of which have had much coverage in newspapers than this incident and they are not even written about in as much detail as this, so we should keep things in perspective. All controbutions welcome in discussion but let's not start a war of words on the entry itself. Thanks. UK 007 (talk) 00:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Salma Yaqoob. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100603202411/http://birmingham.greenparty.org.uk/localsites/birmingham/elections1.html to http://birmingham.greenparty.org.uk/localsites/birmingham/elections1.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110927213037/http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/paper/index.php?article=3960 to http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/paper/index.php?article=3960
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100101124408/http://blogs.birminghampost.net/power50/2008/07/11-salma-yaqoob-birmingham-cit-1.html to http://blogs.birminghampost.net/power50/2008/07/11-salma-yaqoob-birmingham-cit-1.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100315153214/http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/fairer-britain/muslim-women-power-list/ to http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/fairer-britain/muslim-women-power-list/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100104202231/http://paltelegraph.com/world/uk-news/1898-uk-racist-threatens-councilor-to-death to http://www.paltelegraph.com/world/uk-news/1898-uk-racist-threatens-councilor-to-death

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 01:28, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Salma Yaqoob


text:
Category talk:Society of Saint Pius X

In Communion?
Note: This has been taken from the discussion page for the main article. JASpencer 12:17, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is SSPX in communion with Rome?

I am greatly in sympathy with a lot of their criticisms of the post Vatican II order, so for me this is a grave matter.

According to the Holy See:

3. In itself, this act (the 1988 consecration)'' was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act.(3) In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.(4)''

In para 5:

c) In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, (Society of St. Pius X) that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law.(8)

References are:

''(3) Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 751.''

''(4) Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 1382.''

''(8) Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 1364.''

I propose that we recategorise this page from Category:Roman Catholic Church to Category:Catholics not in Communion with Rome as a purely factual matter. This is not intended to be a comment on the theological issues at stake. Does Rome (that is the Pope and the institutions of the Catholic church) regard SSPX to be in communion? The quotes above are, in my mind, conclusive.

Unless someone objects I will recategorise early next week (18 April 2005 on). If someone does object I would have no problem going to arbitration.

JASpencer 17:41, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I think we must distinguish between the Society/Fraternity and the members. Archbishop Lefebvre and the bishops he consecrated were/are certainly out of communion with Rome. Some/many/most of the members are also out of communion.  Others are merely disobedient.  The schismatic ideas of others may not reach of point of outright schism.  So I do not think the Society as such can be declared to be out of communion.
 * Lima 17:52, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Fair enough about the members, but the article is about the Society of St Pius X and so presumably about the institution, and not the members. JASpencer 15:05, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I've procrastinated. I've given the Society its own category and put it under the main Catholic category, for now.  It was about time SSPX got its own category.  JASpencer 12:54, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Moved Again
I've moved this page from its old berth in Category:Roman Catholic Church, which could imply that it is in full communion with the RCC to the more neutral one of Category:Catholic Traditionalism where SSPX appears with both Indult Catholics and Sedevacantists - appearing comparitively mainstream.

Please move
I would suggest that this category be merged into Category:Lefebvrism, as Lefebvrism is, as a movement, much larger than merely the SSPX, and includes, besides the autonomous SSPX sisters, also the Transalpine Redemptorists, the Dominicans of Avrille, etc.

 * It sounds like you may have something there. But there seems to be a hurdle you are going to have to clear first. There is already an entry for "Lefebvrist" and it redirects to the article on the Society of St. Pius X. That means it is basically considered synonymous, and you are suggesting it is not. It seems to me that you are going to have to get consensus first to getting a separate article on Lefebvrist/ism, and define it well. This would seem to be the reasonable, chronological step to renaming this category. Good luck! --Glossando 15:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

title: Category talk:Society of Saint Pius X


text:
Talk:Troilus

Trojan?
Should Troilus belong to the category "people who fought in the Trojan War"?

After all, he is a Trojan, but on the other hand, he doesn't appear in Homers works. 12:17, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Merge
Troilius merged to Troilus at 23:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC). See Troilius revision history for full authorial information. Chick Bowen 23:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC) - I think he's mythical, not to be entertained in a real history.

Rewrite in progress
I'm planning a major reworking of what is here and addition of substantially more material. As a preliminary step, I am splitting the material into ancient and medieval myths. --Peter cohen 18:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Okay, rework started. Plans to add Dictys and Dares, Benoît de Sainte-Maure, Guido delle Colonne and Boccaccio. Also to check Robert Graves's references.
 * Then I can think about modern references unless someone else does them. --Peter cohen 21:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Further thoughts. I'm now tending towards sorting the ancient sources by versions of the story, not by language. So there is the definitive story including the ambush (Sophocles and many of the paintings and sculptures); the young warrior who takes on Achilles in an unequal battle (Virgil, Dares, Quintus etc.) And then Troilos the heroic warrior (Dictys and the medieval tradition). --Peter cohen 10:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Still be done
Modern authors can be added as and when identified. If anyone has access to peer-reviewed journals etc, they can add to the analysis already present. But I judge this ready for GA nomination. --Peter cohen 12:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments on Rewrite
You asked for comments about the variants, so here we go.

I like the way you've separated out the ancient version and what it later becomes in the medieval and renaissance period. It's clear from the statements within that section than there are more than enough differences to justify that and I think it makes sense. I'm less sure about the innumerable sub-headings though. On the one hand, it does definitely make what each author said very clear. On the other hand, I wonder whether all of them are necessary. Could some of them not be combined? The reason I say this is that a number of sub-sections are so short that they're not even really a proper paragraph, more like one or two sentences.

I'm also a little confused by the placement of the last section, 'lovestruck troilus'. It states that this relates to the best-known version, yet it's only right at the very end that it's even mentioned and the section is terribly short. I do note, however, that you're planning to expand this so that may rectify that problem.

What I wonder is whether, rather than separate each source out as you have done at present, you might not be better off separating things by 'theme' or 'tale'. So, for example, have a sub-heading 'the murder of troilus' in the ancient world section. Below this say what this story is, quoting sources that support it (or disagree with it) where appropriate. That would eradicate a number of sub-headings, including some of the very small sections. Then do the same again for the variant 'Troilus, the boy-soldier overwhelmed'. In the medieval section have sub-headings like 'Troilus the soldier' and 'Troilus the Lover' or something similar, and again tell each story, quoting sources where appropriate.

This is only my personal opinion though. Nothing more *g* Silverthorn 16:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks, Silverthorn. I asked for comments because, whilst I was happy with the split between medieval and classical, I was still uncertain on whether to structure things by aspect (beauty, youth, mourning etc) or by author.

 * I think you're right about the two main historical periods and the two main themes within them definitely needing clear headings and then the subdivisions getting rather messy. All the lower level sub-headings went in last night after I thought things were getting too complicated in each section. I think, maybe I shall shunt a load of references into footnotes on the main myths. Then authors like Cicero or Ibycus who only mention Troilus in asides or metaphors disappear out of the main text.

 * The main text can left clear for clear themed discussions. Within the classical period these will be the two main verisons of the story, how all the early texts which discuss the story in detail (Cypria, Socrates etc) are missing leaving only fragments, summaries and Homer's one-line reference. I can then move onto Lycophron, Virgil and Dictys who yield passages long enough to quote or discuss individually. And then discuss the pottery.

 * The medieveal discussion is less developed because the sources are more extended. I've been able to skim the Lydgate selection I have. My Dictys and Dares are indexed and Joseph of Exeter is online, so I can search for Troilus's name. Guido, Benoit, the Laud Troy Book Caxton, Boccaccio, Chaucer and Shakespeare, Dryden are all full length works I have in hardcopy and, in the last four especially, Troilus is mentioned throughout. The Boitani book in the reference section has separate chapters for most of these whilst all the pre-Briseis/Cressida stuff is discussed in just one chapter of. It actually will take longer for me to fully absorb the themes and how to draw them out. I know that Boccaccio and Chaucer wrote in the heyday of courtly love, whilst Shakespeare is cynical and regards Troilus as a fool, but I need to understand the differences more clearly.

 * A similar problem lies behind the discussion of classical art beign so sketchy after I said it was the principle source of Troilos' story. It's easy to spot the names of a dozen ancient authors in Graves, Boitani and Gantz and search out their texts and find the few lines each give to Troilus. But jotting down the reference name for the pottery and other artifacts Gantz and Boitani discuss over several pages each, looking for them online, going through the 108 listed items in the Beazley article and deciding how they fit into Gantz's and Boitani's expositions will take more than an evening's work.

 * Anyway, thank you very mush for your time and your constructive criticism. The first thing I shall do out of it is expand lovestruck Troilus. (I favour that over Troilus the lover, because that is a translation of Boccaccio's title Filostrato. I think I shall still leave it possitioned where it is because it is the last of the four forms of the myth to appear historically. I'll then return to the classical literature and sort tht out. Once There is one section of the article properly sorted it should be easier to model the rest on it. --Peter cohen 17:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

GA hold
This article has a lot of very good information and interesting detail, but it needs to be slightly better organized and the prose needs to be clearer. I am putting it on hold for 1a and 2a.
 * 1 (a) The prose in this article can be improved. There are some awkwardly worded sentences, one-sentence paragraphs, and colloquial diction choices. I would suggest that the editors find a good copy editor to go over the article. Here are some examples of the problems:
 * copyeditor brought in to advise--Peter cohen 23:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The prose often falls into the first-person "we." This is usually discouraged on wikipedia and not necessary here.
 * All "we"s and "us"s now removed. Peter cohen 10:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a comment: I think the same should go for "you", as in the text under the second picture. Lampman 10:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "You"s now removed --Peter cohen 15:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Some of the sections start to feel like prose lists of interpretations. Try to tie them together more, perhaps deleting some. Try to discover what the scholars agree upon; if there is an interpretation that is radically different from the "standard," think about whether or not to include it. Is it important or by a famous scholar? With so many interpretations floating about, the reader has a hard time getting a grasp on the most important ideas.
 * More in depth discussion of scholars' opinions now incorportated.--Peter cohen 23:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The bulletted list in the "Modern interpretations" section should be turned into paragraphs. This would be another good place to insert some generalizations to guide the reader through the specifics.
 * Bullets removed and material rearranged to provide generalisations.--Peter cohen 22:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not always clear from the prose whether or not Troilus was a real person or a mythological figure. Be absolutely clear.
 * Attempts made to clarify --Peter cohen 15:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You have far too many sentences beginning with "but." While it is legitimate to begin a sentence with "but," it is usually done for dramatic flair or to emphasize a strong contrast.
 * All but two removed --Peter cohen 22:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There are some typos and a fair number of dropped words, like "the."
 * copyeditor brought in, proofread by myself and spellchecker used.--Peter cohen 23:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Troilus' fate was linked by prophecy to that of Troy. So, Achilles ambushed and killed him during the Trojan War. - Beginning a sentence with "so" is too conversational. The first sentence has an awkward syntax.
 * Rewritten --Peter cohen 13:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * But prophecies linked Troilus' fate with that of Troy. - stubby sentence
 * Revised --Peter cohen 13:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * His beauty meant that he was taken to be the son of Apollo. - wordy
 * Revised --Peter cohen 13:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Timothy Gantz[22] is more equivocal - What does he say? The sentence is missing some information.
 * Explained --Peter cohen 15:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A portrayal of the scene on an archaic amphora in the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston can be seen by following this link [19] - Don't mention the link in the prose, just link it.
 * Done --Peter cohen 19:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Benoît de Sainte-Maure and Guido delle Colonne then elaborate it in a form that is copied by many other writers, for example, the Troy Books of Laud and Lydgate and Raoul Lefevre's Recuyell of the Historyes of Troye, which through Caxton's translation was to become the best known telling of the Troy story following its printing in 1474, influencing Shakespeare among others. - Long and convoluted sentence.
 * rewritten --Peter cohen 14:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In the medieval and renaissance tradition, Troilus is one of those most hardline in Priam's council against the Greeks. - Anachronistic language - "hardline."
 * rewritten--Peter cohen 14:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

2 (a) - You need to cite page numbers for your sources in the notes. All links given in the notes should be cited and be given retrieval dates. See WP:CITE and WP:FOOT for advice on how to do this.

Small suggestion for improvement (not necessary for GA):
 * Could you give the artists' names, when known, for the images?
 * Done --Peter cohen 23:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

General suggestion for improvement (does not need to be fixed for GA, but would definitely need to be fixed for FA):
 * In general the article seems overburdened with plot differences. At times it is difficult to follow all of the changes you are charting because you assume the reader remembers most of the details you sketched out or that they are familiar with the authors you are referring to. Try including a few more generalized statements to guide the reader through the details and refer back to important information so that they can keep the train of the argument in their heads. Also, if someone reads only one section, they need to be able to follow (roughly) what you are saying.
 * more done to explain sources inclyding addition of tables.--Peter cohen 23:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Question: Why is the first image the reader sees on the page of Achilles and not Troilus?
 * That was the only free image initially available on wiki. There's an image of Troilus and Cressida which I shall try to import. --Peter cohen 14:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Done--Peter cohen 23:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Let me know if you have any questions about this review. When you have finished revising, drop me a note on my talk page and I will re-review it. Awadewit | talk  23:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks. I'm beginning the work. I'm quite busy at present so please show patience on the progress. --Peter cohen 10:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm failing this article for now, since not all of the concerns above have been met yet (sorry!). When you relist it, feel free to contact me and I can review it again for you. Awadewit | talk  08:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

GA pass
This article is much improved and I am passing it for GA. You have contributed a very useful and comprehensive article to wikipedia - I wish all articles were as well-written, well-researched, and well-conceived as this one! I would encourage you to take it to FAC, after fixing some small things, obtaining a peer review, and going over it with a MOS-comb. Here are some suggestions for improvement:

Lead:
 * is a legendary character who has featured in narratives of the Trojan War since before Homeric times - Since the lead is for the least informed readers, I would give dates for "Homeric times".
 * reworded to include date.--Peter cohen 15:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Prophecies link Troilus' fate to that of Troy and he is ambushed and murdered by Achilles. - This sounds just a bit awkward - perhaps it is because the link is not fully explained.
 * "so" inserted --Peter cohen 23:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Troilus was regarded by ancient writers as a paragon of youthful male beauty and as the epitome of a dead child mourned by his parents. - the "epitome" phrase is a bit wordy
 * broken into two sentences--Peter cohen 16:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Troilus is the youngest of Priam's five legitimate sons by Hecuba but is now old enough to be one of the main war leaders of the Trojans. Achilles remains Troilus' killer but the death now happens in battle. - The use of "now" in these sentences throws the temporal aspect of the writing off. What about an "instead" construction?
 * reworded --Peter cohen 16:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Troilus lost prominence as a literary figure - "lost prominence" sounds strange to me
 * reworded --Peter cohen 16:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"Ancient world":
 * Could you arrange the sentences so that the particular translations of the names are placed closer to their meanings?
 * I can't see where this is an issue. Maybe I've dealt with it previously and forgotten to record here.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Could you outline what the prophecies were in the "standard myth" section?
 * done--Peter cohen 23:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

 * When readers arrive at the sentence "Troilus escaped Achilles' sexual advances", they are surprised and confused, because they didn't know Achilles was making any advances.
 * mention of his being filled with lust added--Peter cohen 23:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

 * How did Apollo take his revenge?
 * done--Peter cohen (talk) 15:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * This begins to build up the elements of the version of Troilus' story given above. - The precise meaning of this sentence was not clear to me.
 * explained in the following sentences --Peter cohen (talk) 15:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * The reference to him as a "lion whelp" hints at a great potential missed. - Explain for the reader.
 * done --Peter cohen (talk) 15:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Depictions of Troilus in other contexts are unusual. One such exception from Apulia c.340BC shows Troilus as a child with Priam. - This exception is on what kind of media?
 * given as best I can. It's red figure and looks to be curved and therefore a vase, but I'm not sure what type.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * In his commentary on the Aeneid, Servius[30] considers this story as a deliberate departure from the "true" story, bowdlerized to make it more suitable for an epic poem. - Doesn't "bowdlerized" usually mean something like "changed to make more acceptable for families or women/children" (after Thomas Bowdler)?
 * Yes but looking at the wiki article on him, I see "his name is now associated with prudish censorship of literature, motion pictures and television programs" which I think fits Servius' point. --Peter cohen (talk) 15:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

"Medieval and Renaissance"
 * There are two major deviations from the classical myth in how the story of Troilus developed through the medieval and renaissance periods until the character's time as a major literary character ends with Dryden's neo-classical play. - awkward
 * rewritten--Peter cohen (talk) 12:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

 * You need a couple more citations in the "Knight and war leader" as well as in the "Death" section.
 * Knight and war leader done--Peter cohen (talk) 20:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I would formalize the tone in "story of Troilus and Cressida", replacing phrases such as "make fun of", "go-between", "worked on her", etc.
 * Done to some extent but I have kept "go-between" which I don't consider too informal.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Troilus finds out and seeks revenge on Diomedes and the Greeks and death in battle. - a lot of "and's"
 * reworded--Peter cohen (talk) 15:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Boccaccio introduces a number of features of the story that were to be taken up by Chaucer. Most obvious is that Troilus' love is now called Criseida or Cressida.[97] Another key innovation is the introduction of the go-between Pandarus. - It is not clear to me why the name change should be described as a "key innovation".
 * re-worded--Peter cohen (talk) 22:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

 * No horses or sleeves are involved in Troilus' learning of Cressida's change of heart. - I wasn't exactly sure what this was referring to, but that could be because I read the page over the course of several days. I would suggest making a reference "as in ...."
 * Done--Peter cohen (talk) 14:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Little has changed in the general sweep of the plot from Boccaccio. Things are just more detailed, with Pandarus, for example, involving Deiphobus during his attempts to unite Troilus and Cressida. - Who is Deiphobus?
 * explained--Peter cohen (talk) 22:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

 * However, The novelist and academic Joyce Carol Oates sees Troilus as beginning and ending the play in frenzies - of love and then hatred - unable to achieve the equilibrium of a tragic hero despite his learning experiences, because he is human who belongs to a banal world in which love is compared to food and cooking. - awkwardly worded
 * reworded--Peter cohen (talk) 15:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Having Troilus discover he himself is cuckolded on the threshold of the cuckolded Greek is an example of how throughout the play Shakespeare draws attention to the parallels between the Paris-Helen-Menelaus and the Diomedes-Cressida-Troilus triangles. - awkward
 * reworded--Peter cohen (talk) 15:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Both fights between Troilus and Diomedes take place the next day, Diomedes taking Troilus' horse for Cressida and then the Trojan getting his revenge. - awkward
 * reworded--Peter cohen (talk) 15:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * The opening paragraph of "Reinventing the love story" is a bit awkward.
 * done--Peter cohen (talk) 16:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * The "Modern versions" section feels a bit listy, but this seems inevitable. If there is any way to generalize more, it would help the reader.
 * I'm not sure how to deal with this without violating WP:NOR--Peter cohen (talk) 16:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * The script, described in a BBC press release as "the most sophisticated used in the series" - A press release is obviously going to praise the show - this seems like a poor source since it is not independent of the show.
 * has been removed--Peter cohen 20:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Prose overall:
 * Several times in the article, I wondered whether sentences and clauses should be reordered in terms of importance. It seemed as if unimportant clauses came too early in the sentence, while vital clauses were left to the end.
 * EX: First sentence of "story of Troilus in the ancient world"
 * EX: First paragraph of "Homer and the missing texts"
 * EX: No other written source from pre-Hellenistic times is known to have considered Troilus at any length.
 * I'm not sure that I agree in all those cases, but the prose has been recast here and elsewhere.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

 * "Classical" and "Archaic" should consistently be uppercase or lowercase - right now, they are mixed.
 * Now lower case except in proper names.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

 * There are several places in the article when the prose becomes a little wordy:
 * EX: First paragraph of "The story of Troilus in the ancient world"
 * EX: Taking the Sophocles Troilos as an example, only 54 words have been identified as coming from that play.
 * These examples have been revised. More may be dealt with at the final read through.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

 * The word "whilst" is a bit archaic. It pops up several times in the article - I would replace it with something a little more familiar.
 * changed--Peter cohen (talk) 15:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * In discussing the images, could you say something like "in image at right" or devise a way of making it clearer that the web links are to images?
 * Now done.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Anytime you mention a work of art, such as the Aeneid, could you give a rough date for it? It is helpful to the reader.
 * There are quite a few placeholder sentences - I would get rid of these.
 * EX: The two aspects of Troilus as a warrior and as a lover will now be considered separately.

This article was a pleasure to read. Thanks so much! Awadewit | talk  17:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks for all the detailed suggestions. I intend to sit on my laurels for a bit (aka do my real work) but I shall work through these all gradually.--Peter cohen 09:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Odd sentence
The following sentence, "Sommerstein favours Graves's interpretation saying that ancient sexual predators did not murder" juxtaposes ancient and modern concepts, and seems surprising in a scholarly work. Would you mind backing it up with an exact quote from the book? Thanks, Haiduc 02:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

 * "Servius on Aeneid I.474 reports a version which extenuates Achilles' guilt still further by apparently making the killing accidental: Achilles, being in love with Troilus (more on this in a moment), lured him close by releasing some doves, of which Troilus was fond, and then seized the boy who 'perished in his embrace'. - Sommerstein (2007, p.200)."

 * The end of the sentence links to a footnote

 * "The ancient sexual predator, unlike the modern one, was not thought of as likely to go on to murderis victim, nor is their anything in Servius' language tat points to the idea of an intentional killing: he seems rather to be supposing that Achilles without any evil design crushed or suffocated Troilus by the sheer strength of his arms This version of the story is now known to go back to archaic times: a sixth-century Etruscan amphora in Rome (LIMC Achle 13) shows two doves flying towards Troilus and his horse, with Achilles about to release a third. See d'Agostino (1987). - Sommerstein (2007, p.200-1)."

 * I had the discussion of Graves and Gantz before I acquired the Sommerstein. Hence my phrasing things as Sommerstein favouring Graves's interpretation, even though he does not mention such a non-academic source by name.--Peter cohen 10:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. My problem was with labeling Achilles a "sexual predator." Presumably Sommerstein will go on to identifying Daedaluas as the first aviator and Andromache as the first feminist. Without in any way denying the existence of sexual predation then and now, this particular use of the phrase strikes me as homophobic. It raises the question, which other (nonmurderous) sexual predators he is thinking of? Solon? Socrates? Aeschines? I can only view it as a homophobic remark directed at the Greeks in general. If so, that raises questions about the propriety of repeating it here.Haiduc 12:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

 * My instinct would be to look at other mythological predators, in which category the gods, headed by Zeus, are highly visible. Ganymede, for example, gets given an honourable role by Zeus, displacing one of Hera's children. I would have thought that Apollo turning Daphne into a tree counts as a degree of predation. But the most famous instance of sexual predation in mythology would be the abduction of Persephone. Another of the fragmentary plays dealt with in the book is Tereus, whose title character suffers because he leaves his sister-in-law alive after raping her.--Peter cohen 14:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I think it is really important to respect the point of view of the Greeks when discussing and interpreting their mythology. The only analogous (male on male) example of sexual predation in ancient mythology that I can think of at the moment is the story of Laius and Chrysippus. Confirming the view that it was indeed seen in antiquity as an example of sexual predation is the punishment that Laius as well as the Thebans suffer for the act. So it is not what we think that matters, it is what they thought. Thus I would still not use "predator" as a descriptor, since that inappropriately modernizes the discussion. The Greeks did not see "predation." They saw hubris, and even used that word (hybrizein) to represent sexual outrage. Haiduc 01:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

To add to that, what information do we have on the respective ages of the two? Am I mistaken or was Troilus described as a boupais? It has been a while since I studied the topic, but I seem to recall he was nineteen when he died, one year short of the magic twenty needed to save Troy. Achilles, on the other hand, was sixteen when he shed his female garb and left with Oedipus to join the battle, I believe. And the killing is said to have happened early in the war. So what can Sommerstein be editorializing about? An adolescent preying upon an adult?Haiduc 12:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

 * If you look at the art work in the first part of the article and that which I have managed to link online in the discussion of ancient art, you will find that in none of the pictures does Troilus appear older than Achilles, and in many he look substantially younger. I mention that in one early picture of the ambush, he is bearded, but this is extremely unusual. The norm is for Achilles to be a man and Troilus a boy.

 * Achilles may have been sixteen when found by Odysseus, but there is a considerable amount of time in between. There is the delay for the sacrifice of Iphigenia, the aborted first mission where Telephus is wounded, the second gathering, the need to fetch Telephus and heal him, the attack on Tenedos etc. In any case, early in the war is defined in terms of being before the Iliad which takes place in the ninth year of the war. Proclus' summary of the Cypria mentions Troilus' death after events such as the taking of Lyrnessos and Pedasos and Achilles' theft of Aeneas' cattle. Therefore Achilles was certainly more  is in his mid-twenties.

 * The sources are short of specific ages for Troilus. The First Vatican Mythographer does refer to a prophecy that if Troilus reaches twenty, Troy would not fall. That source is very late and it's a leap to assume he was just short of his twentieth birthday. Dictys is also late, probably second century AD, and describes Troilus as neoi which might mean he was 19, but it describes Troilus as a warrior and therefore is not in the same tradition as Servius. There are basically two ancient traditions, one in which Troilus is young warrior killed in battle, the other in which he is a boy. In the latter, you have Horace referring to him as inpubes and Socrates as andropais - a term which Sommerstein translates as adolescent and says can mean someone who has just left boyhood or a boy with some manlike qualities. Virgil describes Troilus as puer even though he probably has him killed in combat.

 * One has to wonder about Sommerstein's qualifications in this respect. An andropais is generally understood to be (unsurprisingly) a man-like boy, thus a boy at the threshold between adolescence and adulthood. Nothing else makes sense. A brief search suggests that Chaucer may have represented Troilus as nineteen, an admittedly late source. And I agree with you - the iconography generally represents Troilus as a boy, as it must in light of ancient constructions of pederastic desire. Haiduc 01:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

 * All this has to be in the context of Greek expectations about same sex relations as pederastic, in which the active lover is a man who will act as mentor to the pais, who has, at least, to pretend to the outside world that he has no interest in the sex itself. I know that the Symposium portrays Alcibiades as pursuing Sophocles, but I think this was abnormal.--Peter cohen 14:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

On a separate note, I never saw anything claiming that Achilles fell in love with Polyxena at the same time as with Troilus. Everything points to his lying in wait at the Lion fountain expressly to get the boy, not the girl (though it may be significant that she was sacrificed by the Greeks at his tomb).Haiduc 12:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Sommerstein thinks it of significance to the tale of Polyxena that Achilles sighted her during the ambush of Troilus. And one of the links I give, shows Achilles lying in wait and only Polyxena on the other side. There is definitely a romantic link between Achilles and Polyxena in the mythology which goes through from, at least, Dictys to Shakespeare.--Peter cohen 14:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

One more thing - when the brothers (which ones?) of Troilus ride - too late - to his rescue, Achilles meets them in Apollo's temple with an unusual weapon: Troilus' head, which he is swinging around by the hair. It is such a gory detail, it would be a pity to not include it, I just no longer have the sources. Haiduc 12:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Which brothers involved vary. Some are named in the discussion of art. And the use of his head is also mentioned there.--Peter cohen 14:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

More carping
Hello, Peter. Congratulations on reaching GA. I notice that you are translating andros paidophonoio as "child-slaying man". I wonder whether a different interpretation might be more accurate, since pais could stand for son as well as boy. And would you happen to know where in Perugia the Euphronios vase is presently? Haiduc (talk) 19:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

 * The translation of paidophonio came from Sommerstein who considers that Homer played on the ambiguity. I've changed it to boy-slaying with an explanation and I hope it is clear that this is Sommerstein's claim that is being reported. I've added details to the caption re Euphronios.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Further, you describe Troilus as an ephebe, but the preponderance of the iconography renders him as a pais. Comments? Haiduc (talk) 00:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I thought the Athenian ephebia started at 16. There's a considerable overlap between pais and ephebe. One of the British Sunday papers last month had an article arguing that most portrayals of pederasty actually fit with the pais being in the 18-19 age group after they are no longer gaurded by a paedagogue. I think the iconography of Troilos is compatible with portraying a 16 year old, not fully grown or yet ready to serve, but being trained for military service (as indicated by the horses and occasional spear). See note 58 and Briggite Knittlmeyer's views about Troilus as an idealised ephebe.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

After reading the source material you provided I have modified the text so as to paraphrase Sommerstein, rather than mixing his polemic targetting all Greek homosexual relations with the text of an article that is otherwise very balanced. Haiduc (talk) 13:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Okay, I'm not convinced that Sommerstein is being homophobic, but I'm not going to change it back.

 * Thanks for yout congratulations. I'm still working through Awadewit's suggestions but I am planning to progress to FA via peer-review and possibly seeing whether the Mythology or Literature projects want to make it A class. If you have any other observations that may help progress things, then do let me know.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I was confused by your use of "exemplum" in the intro and looked it up. It seems to refer to a moral anecdote, so I wonder whether "paragon" might not be a better formulation. I was also surprised by your spelling of "cylix" having only encountered "kylix" up to now. I looked it up as well and saw it is an alternate, but would it not be better to use the form used in the Wikipedia article on the topic? Thank you, by the way, for your quick response to my previous comments. Haiduc (talk) 21:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

 * The 19th century source of the image obviously used Latinised spelling. I've changed both "cylix" and "Euphronius" It would be nice to find a colour version that also does not feature the measurment device, or whatever it is on the outer painting.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

?! Which outer painting? Also, March (1998) is missing from the bibliography. Haiduc (talk) 21:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm refering to the semi-circular strip above the circular illustration. This is presumably the illustration on the outside of the kylix. (March now dealt with)--Peter cohen (talk) 16:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Size
An anon editor has tagged this article as "way too long". As it has not grown significantly since being passed as GA and has also been accepted for one of the CD editions, my inclination is to remove the tag.

Having checked Size, I've followed the procedure for calculating readable text and have come out with 63K which is large but not huge.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 09:16, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on Troilus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928015950/http://www.compassionatespirit.com/Homilies/Book-5.htm to http://www.compassionatespirit.com/Homilies/Book-5.htm
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://geocities.com/growonder/chaucertroilus.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071205225853/http://bama.ua.edu/~emartin/publications/mdart.htm to http://bama.ua.edu/~emartin/publications/mdart.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071025092059/http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=153428&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_view=0&coll_package=2350&coll_start=111 to http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=153428&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_view=0&coll_package=2350&coll_start=111
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070105005012/http://www.mfa.org/master/sub.asp?key=2656&subkey=3424 to http://www.mfa.org/master/sub.asp?key=2656&subkey=3424
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070923195810/http://age-of-bronze.com/aob/samples/aobiss23_1.pdf to http://www.age-of-bronze.com/aob/samples/aobiss23_1.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 05:34, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Troilus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070904141913/http://www.library.northwestern.edu/homer/ to http://www.library.northwestern.edu/homer/
 * Added tag to http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0021%3Abook%3DE%3Achapter%3D3%3Asection%3D32
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071025092059/http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=153428&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_view=0&coll_package=2350&coll_start=111 to http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=153428&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_view=0&coll_package=2350&coll_start=111
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070105005012/http://www.mfa.org/master/sub.asp?key=2656&subkey=3424 to http://www.mfa.org/master/sub.asp?key=2656&subkey=3424
 * Added tag to http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/fcgi-bin/db2www/quickSearch.mac/gallery?selLang=English&tmCond=Troilus&go.x=20&go.y=11

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 21:42, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Troilus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050323061825/http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/southerr/troilus.html to http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/southerr/troilus.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 20:14, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Troilus