text:
Talk:Robert Henry Cain

Nationality
Can we really call him "an English recipient of the Victoria Cross"? He was from a Manx family and it seems like he spent much of his life in various far-flung parts of the Empire. Interesting though that he was buried in Sussex. — Trilobite (Talk) 01:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Further Information
Are we OK to include the piece entitled Further Information which is a straight copy/paste of the piece on both the South Staff's website, and the Arnhem Archive website? --Trident13 22:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I should think it'd need a rewrite at the least. --Nucleusboy 18:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Temporary Major vs. Brevet
Is temporary correct or should it be brevet? What was his rank before and after? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.82.163 (talk) 15:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Copyright concerns
There are some lingering concerns about this text, although the point of origin is still a bit unclear. User:Woody has made a fabulous start, but if we can't verify permission or that the material belongs to us, we will need to revise further to avoid publishing a derivative work. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. I understand that somebody has written the owner of the identified site, who may be able to help clarify ownership of the material or might be willing to donate it. In the meantime, perhaps material could be further revised in the now-linked temporary space and merged when completed? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A review shows the entire article has been rewritten and any concerns about derivative text have been addressed. — Cactus Writer |   needles  15:38, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I suppose we should have left a note here, Moonriddengirl knows it is free, she helped to clean it up. ;) Regards, Woody (talk) 15:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Gazette search results

 * By service number
 * By initials and surname

Both of these contain a few false positives, and may still miss a few. David Underdown (talk) 10:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

German Surrender
Cain didn't take the German surrender, he would have been far too low-ranking an officer. That duty was given to Major-General Andrew Thorne in alliance with the Norwegian Resistance, whos name I forget. Unfortunately, Thorne's article is little more than a stub; I need to expand it at some point but don't have the materials. Skinny87 (talk) 09:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It doesn't say that he took the German surrender, it says "On 11 May 1945 Cain travelled to Oslo, Norway, with the 1st Airlanding brigade primarily to oversee the German surrender." The 1st Airlanding brigade where there primarily as "peacekeepers" in effect as far as I can work out. I don't think the article says otherwise, though I am sure we can reword it to make it utterly plain? Regards, Woody (talk) 09:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, probably just needs a bit of rewording; maybe 'with the 1st Airlanding Brigade, which was to aid in the surrender of German troops in Norway' or something like that? Skinny87 (talk) 10:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, so done. Thanks, Woody (talk) 10:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

VC Citation Problems
From adding a few refs I've now gone and got myself fascinated with the article and ended up expanding the whole thing! There are several minor quibbles with the official citation for Cain's VC that don't match up with the history books, so I thought I'd better just put a note to explain why I'm directly contradicting it in a few places. As far as I can make out, Cain's action when he was nearly blinded took place on the 21st, not the 20th. Middlebrook and another book (so far unused as a ref) support this. I thought it could possibly be an error on their parts, but two refs mention the name of his spotter in the building above him, who was killed by the shot that showered Cain with masonry, and the Official roll of honour support this (just type Meikle into the search field and select surname).

Secondly, I can't find any evidence that the Staffords Battalion was ever cut off from the main division, or that Cain was ever cut off from his battalion, so I've removed all mention of that in the main text.

It'd be nice to try and acknowledge that the facts and the citation differ slightly in the article, but of course, no text I have actually says "Cains citation differs slightly...". Any thoughts? Cheers Ranger Steve (talk) 20:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Aha, check that. According to Waddy, Cain and Major Bush (3rd Battalion) held a section of the Oosterbeek perimeter where they were regularly out of touch with divisional HQ.  This lasted for 5 days before a runner told them to withdraw that night (Operation Berlin).  I think that's where it comes from, but out of contact and cut off are slightly different things.... Poor communication with HQ was a factor all around the perimeter at Oosterbeek.  Ranger Steve (talk) 20:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Perhaps we could footnote individual instances in the main article text where there are disagreements between sources. It's unfortunate that the original recommendation for the VC doesn't survive as it would have been interesting to know who the witnesses were, and how long after the action the statements were made.  David Underdown (talk) 08:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

 * That could work, although I think maybe just one footnote at the end. It would be nice to suggest why it may be different, but I don't think we're gonna find any refs for it. Ranger Steve (talk) 21:34, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

 * You can add in the text itself: In his book YYY says that the events took place on 00 September whereas the Gazette places it at 01 September." Then you reference each instance. It gives the reader all of the information, I don't think you need to make any particular reasoning as to why there is a discrepancy. Woody (talk) 21:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Done, feel free to improve if necessary! Ranger Steve (talk) 18:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

GA
I've put this article up for GA as I think it's ready, but of course improvements are always welcome! Ranger Steve (talk) 11:48, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll be glad to review it, but before I do the Later Life section needs more citations; most of it is uncited at the moment. Skinny87 (talk) 11:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Okey dokey, gimme a day to rework it. Ranger Steve (talk) 11:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem; merging the sentence fragments into a couple of paragraphs would also be a good idea. Skinny87 (talk) 12:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Article name
I don't think I've seen Cain referred to as Robert Henry Cain in any book I've read about him in. Having his full name in 3 places in the lead makes it look like that was the name he regularly went by, but I only ever see him referred to as Robert Cain. Does anyone have any thoughts about moving the article to Robert Cain (British Army officer) Ranger Steve (talk) 22:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The name is no longer repeated three times in the lead, which is an improvement, but I don't see the problem with using his middle name to disambiguate in this case - I think its neater than Robert Cain (British Army officer) and it was after all his actual name. (The suggested title should however be a redirect if it isn't used).--Jackyd101 (talk) 23:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Think the correct disamb should be Robert Cain (VC) in line with all other British VC articles where a disamb name is used Kernel Saunters (talk) 07:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry Jackyd, I should have said 'at the top' - I was thinking of the article name, bolded person name and name in the infobox. It's something I see in a few other articles - for instance John Dutton Frost, who again goes by that name 3 times at the top, although he is rarely (if ever) referred to in that way in any of my books.  I will however put Robert into the first line after the contents box - that helps a little.  Ranger Steve (talk) 10:30, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to say that to my mind Robert Cain (VC) looks worse than either of the other options (and over the years I have moved lots of articles from that to (British Army officer) or (Royal Navy officer) without really thinking about it I'm afraid).--Jackyd101 (talk) 16:54, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I have to agree that Robert Cain VC wouldn't be my choice... Ranger Steve (talk) 17:05, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Disclaimer
Since this is now on the page including the middle name, I don't think we need the disclaimer saying 'for other people with this name' pointing to the Robert Cain disambiguation page, because those other people don't have Henry in their name, right? Tyciol (talk) 23:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

robert henry cain was jeremy clarksons (top gear) father in law. he did a bbc documentary about him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.27.44 (talk) 18:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

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User:Yuber/Sandbox

Yuber(talk) 21:23, 7 May 2005 (UTC) Mailing_lists

Abilene (biblical) Arpad (Syria) Bosra Canatha Ma`loula Safita Shahba Tadmor Tartous Krak des Chevaliers Margat Safita

title: User:Yuber/Sandbox


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Masawaiyh

Yuhanna ibn Masawaih (circa 777–857), (يوحنا بن ماسويه), also written Ibn Masawaih, Masawaiyh, and in Latin Janus Damascenus, or Mesue, Masuya, Mesue Major, Msuya, and Mesuë the Elder was a Persian or Assyrian East Syriac Christian physician from the Academy of Gundishapur. According to The Canon of Medicine for Avicenna and  ' Uyun al-Anba for the medieval Arabic historian Ibn Abi Usaybi'a, Masawaiyh's father was Assyrian and his mother was Slavic.

Life
Born in 777 CE as the son of a pharmacist and physician from Gundishapur, he came to Baghdad and studied under Jabril ibn Bukhtishu.

He became director of a hospital in Baghdad, and was personal physician to four caliphs. He composed medical treatises on a number of topics, including ophthalmology, fevers, leprosy, headache, melancholia, dietetics, the testing of physicians, and medical aphorisms. One of Masawaiyh's treatises concerns aromatics, entitled, On Simple Aromatic Substances.

It was reported that Ibn Masawayh regularly held an assembly of some sort, where he consulted with patients and discussed subjects with pupils. Ibn Masawayh apparently attracted considerable audiences, having acquired a reputation for repartee.

He was also the teacher of Hunain ibn Ishaq. He translated various Greek medical works into Syriac, but wrote his own work in Arabic. Apes were supplied to him by the caliph al-Mu'tasim for dissection.

Many anatomical and medical writings are credited to him, notably the "Disorder of the Eye" (Daghal al-'ain), which is the earliest Systematic treatise on ophthalmology extant in Arabic and the Aphorisms, the Latin translation of which was very popular in the Middle Ages.

He died in Samarra in 857 CE.

title: Masawaiyh


text:
User:T-tus

I work as a computer graphics artist and also as a Technical Director in a startup company in Mexico City, Mexico. I'm also co-editor of a small webiste devoted to animation.

Recently aquired the Mexican nationality and lost the nationality of the country I was born.

title: User:T-tus


text:
Talk:Spearman's hypothesis

Relevance of Controversy section?
Is the information given in the Controversy section really relevant to this article? - dcljr 01:31, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This looks like a great candidate for merger with some other article.
This article is interesting, but rather duplicative of some other articles on the same subject. It would be best, I think, to merge this content with some existing article, perhaps General intelligence factor. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Intelligence Citations Bibliography for Articles Related to IQ Testing
You may find it helpful while reading or editing articles to look at a bibliography of Intelligence Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human intelligence and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in these issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research. You can help other Wikipedians by suggesting new sources through comments on that page. It will be extremely helpful for articles on human intelligence to edit them according to the Wikipedia standards for reliable sources for medicine-related articles, as it is important to get these issues as well verified as possible. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Wording
In the section "Under Criticism," I changed the wording from "considered to be an important justification for the genetic explanation" to "considered to be an important piece of evidence for the genetic explanation." Justified means makes acceptable or right. The methods of correlated vectors was not meant to "justify" the hereditarian hypothesis, but to provide evidence for it. I'm not sure what justification is supposed to imply here. If it's supposed to imply "make a plausible hypothesis," as Flynn has noted, the Hereditarian hypothesis would stand if Spearman's hypothesis was disproved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.235.88 (talk) 23:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

What the hypothesis actually is
There seems to be some confusion in this article about what the hypothesis actually is. The lead section talks about Spearman's two-factor theory which has little to do with the hypothesis. The hypothesis is, in short, that the black-white difference in IQ is either entirely (strong hypothesis) or mainly (weak hypothesis) due to differences in g between blacks and whites. Jensen came up with the term Spearman's hypothesis based on Spearman's brief remark in The Abilities of Man (1927) that the magnitude of b-w differences in different American tests seemed to be correlated with the g-loadings of the tests. Jensen invented the method of correlated vectors to test the hypothesis.

I think this topic warrants an article of its own, because various researchers have made rather elaborate arguments for and against the hypothesis.--Victor Chmara (talk) 17:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

 * Hi, Victor, you wrote, "I think this topic warrants an article of its own, because various researchers have made rather elaborate arguments for and against the hypothesis." That indeed would be the way to show that a separate stand-alone article is warranted on this topic. I'll start digging into the sources I have at hand (I still have a lot to log in on the main source list and see what they have to say on this issue. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 00:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

 * There seems to be a deeper confusion about what Spearman's hypothesis is. Jensen (1998), page 271, characterized it as the hypothesis that (1) "the relative size of the W-B mean difference across a group of diverse tests is a positive function of each tests g-loading" and then went on to describe it as (2) the hypothesis that the gap is 'either entirely (strong hypothesis) or mainly (weak hypothesis) due to differences in ''g.' That is, Jensen seemed to equated 1 with 2.  Dolan et al (2001) have since clarified that (1) is distinct from (2).  They called (1) Spearman's correlation and (2) Spearman's hypothesis and then argue that a repeated findings of Spearman’s correlation is necessary but not sufficient to establish Spearman's hypothesis (i.e. a differences in g).  This distinction is related to their critique of the Method of correlated vectors (MCV), which can demonstrate (1) but, according to them, not (2) due to the MCV's lack of specificity (i.e. the MCV's inability to distinguish between Spearman's correlations caused by g and not caused by g.)

 * Now this confusion is important to clarify because both "Spearman's correlation" and "Spearman's hypothesis" are used, independently, to argue against an environmental basis for the B-W difference.

For example, Murray (2005) notes:

 * ''As long ago as 1927, Charles Spearman, the pioneer psychometrician who discovered g, proposed a hypothesis to explain the pattern: the size of the black-white difference would be "most marked in just those [subtests] which are known to be saturated with g."[58] In other words, Spearman conjectured that the black-white difference would be greatest on tests that were the purest measures of intelligence, as opposed to tests of knowledge or memory.

 * A concrete example illustrates how Spearman's hypothesis works. Two items in the Wechsler and Stanford-Binet IQ tests are known as "forward digit span" and "backward digit span." In the forward version, the subject repeats a random sequence of one-digit numbers given by the examiner, starting with two digits and adding another with each iteration. The subject's score is the number of digits that he can repeat without error on two consecutive trials. Digits-backward works exactly the same way except that the digits must be repeated in the opposite order.

 * Digits-backward is much more g-loaded than digits-forward. Try it yourself and you will see why. Digits-forward is a straightforward matter of short-term memory. Digits-backward makes your brain work much harder.[59]

 * The black-white difference in digits-backward is about twice as large as the difference in digits-forward.[60] It is a clean example of an effect that resists cultural explanation.''

 * It took me approximately 0.2 seconds to realize that the degree to which a culture is comfortable with abstractions - for which manipulating random numbers as digits unattached to any concrete meaning or reality obviously qualifies - would have a greater advantage on the backwards test than on the forwards test. As I work in introducing literacy to unschooled populations, this is the exact sort of task that would be difficult to even explain to someone who did not work with numbers abstractly on a regular basis. Claiming that it resists cultural explanation sounds naive.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.217.99 (talk) 13:14, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

 * And also gives the following footnote:

 * [64] Jensen's evidence has been accompanied by a debate over his method of correlated vectors for testing Spearman's hypothesis. P.H. Schönemann has argued, most extensively in Schönemann (1997), that Jensen's evidence was no more than a statistical artifact, a claim refuted by Dolan and Lubke (2001). But other ways in which the method of correlated vectors might yield spurious results are still being debated; e.g., Dolan (2000), Lubke, Dolan, and Kelderman (2001), Dolan, Roorda, and Wicherts (2004), Ashton and Lee (in press). These arguments are being carried on at an arcane methodological level. I am making a limited claim about what Jensen has established beyond dispute: when you take a battery of mental tests, subject them to a factor analysis, and correlate the loadings on the first factor with the size of the black-white difference, the correlation will average about .6. The actual method of correlated vectors is more complicated than this, and is described in Jensen (1998): 372-74.

 * Here, Murray is clearly talking about what Dolan et al call "Spearman's correlation."  And his claim, clearly, can not be objected to on the basis of Dolan et al's critique of MCV. None of this, of course, is understandable unless the distinction between (1) and (2) is clear.  This confusion is also important to clarify because it makes sense of the larger debate about group differences in g, about the utility of MCV for establishing them, and about the relationship between MCV, Spearman's correlation, and Spearman's hypothesis.  For example, with regards to MCV, te Nijenhuis et al. (2007) argue:

 * “The fact that our meta-analytical value of r=−1.06 is virtually identical to the theoretically expected correlation between g and d of −1.00 holds some promise that a psychometric meta-analysis of studies using MCV is a powerful way of reducing some of the limitations of MCV…Additional meta-analyses of studies employing MCV are necessary to establish the validity of the combination of MCV and psychometric meta-analysis. Most likely, many would agree that a high positive meta-analytical correlation between measures of g and measures of another construct implies that g plays a major role, and that a meta-analytical correlation of −1.00 implies that g plays no role. However, it is not clear what value of the meta-analytical correlation to expect from MCV when g plays only a modest role.” (Score gains on g-loaded tests: No g, 2007)"

 * They argue that meta-analytic findings of Spearman's correlation using MCV can evidence Spearman's hypothesis -- or at least g differences to some degree or other. To understand their point, it helps to get the whole (1), (2) distinction.....

 * Anyways, I not sure if the Spearman's correlation/hypothesis distinction will help the readers, but keeping it in mind might help the writers better grasp the nuances of the SH/MCV debate.--Hippofrank (talk) 22:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)Hippofrank

2013 Revision
I made extensive revisions to the original article. I consider this to be a preliminarily edit. If anyone has objections to the revision please note the objections and we can discuss the issue. One problem that I will note is that I was forced to impose some order on this topic. The primary and secondary sources present a confused conceptualization of what Spearman's hypothesis actually is. At one time, it's simply the hypothesis that the Black-White differences in mental ability correlates with g-loadings (Jensen, 1985; Jensen, 2002). At another time, it's the hypothesis that group differences are substantially due to general intelligence differences (Jensen, 1998). These two conceptualizations are poorly distinguished. And this situation makes discussion of this issue difficult.--Zebrapersonfrank (talk) 19:43, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

 * Thanks for commenting on the talk page. I have a lot of the sources at hand, and I'll take a look at the new overall look of the article. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 02:27, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

 * Interesting. I'll look in reliable secondary sources (rather than first reports in journals) for more about this. Thanks for the recent substantive edits, which I've just touched up with some copy edits, most rather minor. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:37, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Flynn on g-loadings
"For example, Flynn argues that the most g-loaded and heritable tests are those that have seen the highest increases due to the Flynn effect. "

This is wrong, Flynn has said: "The magnitude of white/ black IQ differences on Wechsler subtests at any given time is correlated with the g loadings of the subtests; the magnitude of IQ gains over time on subtests is not usually so correlated; the causes of the two phenomena are not the same"

Source: http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/fe/LinkedDocuments/flynn2013.pdf (see under section 4. Jan te Nijenhuis and Henk van der Flier) 109.78.58.68 (talk) 02:15, 10 December 2019 (UTC)someguy

Examples of Spearman's hypothesis should be included in this article
'''The article is about Spearman's hypothesis. Therefore, there should be examples of studies about Spearman's hypothesis.'''

Here is my edit which was reverted. A large number of users have previously added examples of Spearman's hypothesis, but this was reverted here by User:Generalrelative and User:NightHeron. This large (largest ever for this article) deletion and re-writing of the article improved certain aspects of it, but the removal of examples of Spearman's hypothesis (among other removals) was unwarranted and does not align with editor consensus. Remember that it is best to WP:PRESERVE.

The following show that it is clear established WP:consensus from editors that examples of the article's topic should be included:

 * -User:Victor Chmara included the original 1927 observation of Spearman's hypothesis.
 * -User:Miradre included a source on Japanese inbreeding effects predicting group differences.
 * -User:Boppet included the statement of Jensen's opinion based on 25 samples.
 * -66.49.147.29 included a source which discussed Serbian, South African, and US examples of Spearman's hypothesis.
 * -User:Zebrapersonfrank included a source talking about different examples of Spearman's hypothesis.
 * - User:Cassmus included a source studying Kazakh, Korean, Tatar, Uzbek, and Russian children from Kazakhstan, a different source on Native Americans, and a source on Advanced Placement exam scores in the US, all of which illustrated Spearman's hypothesis.
 * -User:Deleet included a source detailing two meta-analyses on Jews in the US and Israel and American non-Jewish white people, and included a study on Saudi young people and other young people from Denmark, Cyprus, Croatia, Bosnia, South Africa, Estonia, Ukraine, Ireland, Russia and Chile, and a study on twins in addition to 11 other samples from around the world, all of which were illustrations of Spearman's hypothesis.
 * -Other users contributed examples about "related hypotheses," but I don't wish focus on that. Additionally, some users which added sources which only tangentially mention the Spearman effect, or discuss the technical aspects of it, are not listed above.
 * -Of course, I also included a variety of peer-reviewed sources (including some of the above) on Spearman's hypothesis; for example, a study illustrating Spearman's hypothesis in apes.

All of these above sources/the text preceding them were deleted.

Throughout this period of 12 years (From Victor's edit to Generalrelative's deletion), 55 unique users made 162 edits to the page without deleting the above illustrations of Spearman's hypothesis. Consensus is assumed when there's no evidence of disagreement, per WP:SILENCE.

On 19 May 2022, User:Generalrelative informed User:NightHeron to look at this article, then made extremely large deletions. After User:Generalrelative's edits that day, the article shrunk 8716 characters. Three days later, User:NightHeron deleted 3032 characters. This was over half of the article; it now sits at only 9447 characters. This is a clear violation of WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM; WP:EPTALK as well as WP:CAUTIOUS should also be considered here.

After I made edits, @NightHeron reverted all of them, citing WP:ONUS but perhaps overlooking WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS. mentioned an issue with the quality of my sources, which wasn't helpful to me, as I had added twenty-two sources (mostly examples) to the article. I researched my sources and deleted a lower-quality source, then reinstated my other edits, adding: "Please don't blanket revert without mentioning specific items that can be improved. I've double-checked this version for low-quality sources. If you have specific problems with a source, delete that source and corresponding statement instead of all of my edits." My sources came from 13 separate locations, almost all of which are peer-reviewed journals. Instead of letting me know which sources were problematic, @NightHeron deleted my edits for a second time.

In light of the communication between @Generalrelative and @NightHeron, remember that promoting a cause by bringing a like-minded editor into the dispute, even in good faith, does not align with Wikipedia policy.

Note: It is not my intention to advocate for the inclusion of all of the above sources. It is my intention to unequivocally illustrate that there is a consensus among previous editors that examples of Spearman's hypothesis should be included. This is the norm on Wikipedia. Convergent evolution has examples of convergent evolution. Debt-trap diplomacy has examples of debt-trap diplomacy. Spearman's hypothesis should have examples of Spearman's hypothesis.

Instead of mass-deleting, the following solutions from WP:PRESERVE should be attempted:

 * Rephrasing or copy-editing to improve grammar or more accurately represent the sources

 * Formatting or sourcing on the spot

 * Tagging it as necessary

 * Correcting inaccuracies, while keeping the rest of the content intact

 * Adding another point of view to the existing points of view to make the article more balanced

 * Requesting a citation by adding the tag, or adding any other inline cleanup tags as appropriate

 * Adding appropriate cleanup tags to content you cannot fix yourself.

In short, if you have a problem with my edit, just undo or correct the parts you have an issue with. It isn't constructive to blanket-revert all of my edits. In accordance with WP:STATUSQUO, the page will continue to include examples of Spearman's hypothesis at present.

TL;DR: User:Generalrelative and User:NightHeron deleted massive amounts of long-standing text, including examples of Spearman's hypothesis. This was originally unknown to me when I began editing (mostly to add examples). My substantial update to the page, encompassing a diverse array of edits, was completely reverted twice by User:NightHeron without a discussion on the talk page. BooleanQuackery (talk) 03:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

 * , although I agree with NightHeron's initial objection that this article should not cite Mankind Quarterly, which is considered a low-quality source, your current rewrite is an improvement. I agree that NightHeron should make whatever changes he thinks need to be made to the current version, rather than continuing to remove half of the entire article. --AndewNguyen (talk) 10:11, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

 * I did not "remove half of the entire article". I restored the article to the stable version that was there until a few hours before, when BooleanQuackery added a huge amount of material that changed the nature of the article in violation of earlier consensus of editors. NightHeron (talk) 13:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

 * I also completely agree that this article should not cite Mankind Quarterly. Doing that was an oversight., I wouldn't like to get bogged down in semantics, but it is possible to both remove half of an article and also restore an article to a previous version. BooleanQuackery (talk) 17:05, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

That is not the way consensus works on Wikipedia. You do not establish a new consensus by searching through the early history of an article to find edits you like that were later removed in order to bring the article into compliance with Wikipedia policies, such as WP:RS, WP:PROFRINGE, and WP:UNDUE.

The claims of hereditary differences in intelligence between racial groups were discussed in an RfC in 2020 at WP:FTN (see ) and on the Race and intelligence talk-page (see ). Both RfCs on race and intelligence had extensive participation by many editors -- over 50 in 2020 and about 35 in 2021. The first one reached a consensus (sustained on appeal) that such claims of inherent intelligence differences between races is a fringe POV. This means that such claims should be treated on Wikipedia in compliance with WP:PROFRINGE and not given undue attention. A few disgruntled editors were unhappy with this outcome. But the second RfC ended in a WP:SNOWCLOSE overwhelmingly reaffirming the consensus that racial hereditarianism is a fringe POV. After the RfC in 2020, articles related to racial hereditarianism were edited in accordance with the consensus of editors on the subject. NightHeron (talk) 13:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

 * They edits I listed are not edits I like. I dislike some of them; see my "note." An WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS is indeed established by the edits of previous users. It is reasonable to show the long-standing edits of those users if such a consensus is called into question to confirm its veracity.

 * I personally have no stake in the hereditarianism debate. None of the edits I added were about IQ differences or anything like that. Two of the sources you removed that I added were in non-human primates, and some of them implicitly contradict what you're critiquing: for example, the source where Spearman's hypothesis is still present in different regions of Japan, a highly homogenous society. Spearman's hypothesis implies that tests which "get at" g are better able to show contrast between test-takers. It does not mean that there are "inherent intelligence differences between races." It does (in my opinion) imply that IQ tests, AP tests, etc. don't perfectly measure true general intelligence, and also that g was selected for in our primate ancestors (i.e., exhibited stronger selection pressures than narrower abilities). BooleanQuackery (talk) 17:42, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

 * The way things have been lately is that even sources about the Flynn effect, or about dysgenic trends in intelligence, are getting removed because of their vague similarity to hereditarian views about race and intelligence. I'm assuming you've seen the recent article in Quillette that discusses several examples of this pattern. This trend is something we should push back against, or otherwise in a few years Wikipedia won't be able to say anymore that intelligence is heritable at all, so I'll restore your changes. --AndewNguyen (talk) 20:16, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard of that Quillette article. To me, this article doesn't relate to those controversial topics. It's like saying an article on phone usage patterns shouldn't include any examples of phone usage (like phone usage in different areas of Japan, or what phones apes experimentally prefer to use) because East Asians are more likely to use Huawei and Indians are more likely to not use iPhones, so it is somehow now intricately tied to race. BooleanQuackery (talk) 22:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Just popping in to voice support for NightHeron here. The removed content was WP:PROFRINGE and therefore WP:UNDUE. AndewNguyen, I see that you've become active again after more than a year in order to plug the Quillette piece you mention above at ArbCom, presumably knowing full well that we consider that publication to be unreliable. Looks like a very, very weak argument to me. Generalrelative (talk) 21:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Generalrelative, are you saying that all of the edits removed by NightHeron today are WP:PROFRINGE and therefore WP:UNDUE? I want to make sure I understand your position. BooleanQuackery (talk) 22:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * "Content" was removed twice by you and NightHeron in late May, then again this month. Which content removal are you referring to? BooleanQuackery (talk) 17:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

and, if you have no objections, I will change the page to include examples. If you have an objection, do you object to any of the following? Please say the number(s) you object to (if any), and why you object. If you object to something not listed above, I would like to hear that as well. BooleanQuackery (talk) 19:46, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Citing a paper if the first author is Dutch psychologist Jan Te Nijenhuis
 * 2) Citing a paper if Jan Te Nijenhuis is on the paper at all
 * 3) Citing a paper if it is published in the peer-reviewed journal Intelligence by Elsevier

 * I've already objected to giving WP:UNDUE attention to fringe authors or to publications from the official journal of ISIR. You don't have a consensus to add those sources. You cannot assume consensus just because editors who've participated in extensive earlier discussions on these matters have no desire to relitigate this yet again and so respond to your badgering with silence. NightHeron (talk) 19:59, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Seven of the citations from the version you reverted to are from Nijenhuis or the journal Intelligence. These citations all criticize or find against Spearman's hypothesis. However, you only deleted the citations from Nijenhuis or the journal Intelligence that found support for Spearman's hypothesis. If Intelligence and Nijenhuis were undue and/or fringe, then why include them in your edit? This makes it seem to me that content and citations was removed based on if they support Spearman's hypothesis, instead of removing them based on if they are from peer-reviewed journals or authors you object to. BooleanQuackery (talk) 20:54, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

There is additional discussion about the content of this page which can be found here. BooleanQuackery (talk) 02:21, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Jan te Nijenhuis is not a reliable source for anything, he publishes pseudoscience in the discredited Mankind Quarterly . I submitted his article for deletion BTW, he's not notable. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Accuracy template
Why is there a "factual accuracy is disputed" template at the top of the article? Should reliably disputed statements be tagged within the article instead? Llll5032 (talk) 20:27, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There were three tags, for factual accuracy, neutrality, and undue weight, all tagged by the editor who started the discussion immediately above. I removed two of the tags, leaving the factual accuracy tag because it seemed relevant to the above discussion, which amounts to a dispute over whether to include examples of Spearman's hypothesis. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Spearman's hypothesis


text:
Wilhelm von Opel

Wilhelm von Opel (15 May 1871 – 2 May 1948), known as Wilhelm Opel before being ennobled in 1917, was one of the founders of the German automobile manufacturer Opel. He introduced the assembly line to the German automobile industry.

His father, Adam Opel, had founded the family firm as a manufacturer of sewing machines, and later diversified into bicycle manufacturing. Wilhelm studied engineering at Technische Hochschule Darmstadt and received his doctorate in 1912 from the university. After Adam's death in 1895, control of the company passed to his wife and five sons. In 1898, Wilhelm and his brother Fritz brought Opel into the automobile industry with the purchase of the small Lutzmann automobile factory at Dessau.

In 1917, Wilhelm and his brother Heinrich Opel were raised to the nobility of the Grand Duchy of Hesse. Their brother Carl was raised to the same rank the following year. Wilhelm had one son and one daughter, Fritz von Opel and Eleonore von Opel.

In 1933, Opel joined the Nazi Party and soon became an active supporter of it, making financial contributions to the SS and being awarded the title of Patron.

In January 1947, he was found guilty by a denazification court and had to pay a large fine. He died the following year.

Opel is the grandfather of Rikky von Opel and Gunter Sachs.

title: Wilhelm von Opel


text: User talk:68.98.240.169

title: User talk:68.98.240.169


text:
Adam Opel

Adam Opel (9 May 1837 – 8 September 1895) was a German entrepreneur who founded the automobile company Adam Opel AG.

Biography
Adam Opel was born on 9 May 1837 to Wilhelm, a locksmith, and his wife in Rüsselsheim. Opel studied with his father until the age of 20, when he received his travel pass. The pass enabled him to be an apprentice locksmith in Belgium, in Liège, Brussels, and then Paris, where he arrived in mid-1858. While in Paris, he took an interest in an innovation—the sewing machine. In 1859, he went to work for a maker of sewing machines to get a closer look. Opel's younger brother, George, also came to Paris to absorb this new technology. In 1862, Adam Opel returned to Rüsselsheim.

Opel's uncle offered him an unused cow stall in Rüsselsheim to set up a workshop in which to build his own sewing machine. In 1863, George returned from France to help in the slow production of the machines. In April 1867, Opel was preparing to build a new two-story factory near the railroad station, when his father died. Opel attached a new home to his factory and married the daughter of a guest-house and brewery family, Sophie Scheller. Sophie brought with her a substantial dowry, which she invested in the Opel plant. Sophie convinced two of her sisters to invest as well, and a steam engine was purchased, helping to expand the firm. In 1870 a new sewing machine called “Sophia” was introduced, named after Opel's wife.

In the 1880s, sewing machine production jumped ahead, with steady expansion of the plant, and by 1899 more than a half million machines had been made. The milestone of one million machines was reached in 1911, the same time a fire destroyed much of the plant. The Opel brothers decided to give up sewing machine production, which by this time was much more commodified, and thus commercially unrewarding, than when they had started in the business. Looking to move upmarket in their manufacturing efforts, they decided to try to produce the more profitable products of bicycles and automobiles.

Adam and Sophie Opel had five sons (Carl, Wilhelm, Heinrich, Friedrich, and Ludwig), who took wholeheartedly to wheels. Together with Sophie, who became main shareholder after the death of her husband, they would pilot the Opel enterprises down the automotive path. Bicycles came into the picture when Adam Opel's curiosity was stirred by a high-wheeled bicycle he saw in Paris. Intrigued, he ordered a set of parts from England. After putting together the bike Opel tried it with disastrous results. He decided he'd have nothing further to do with those "bone breakers." Two things changed his mind: he found them easy to sell, with a greater profit than he could earn with the sewing machines; and his sons begged him mercilessly for bicycles of their own.

By 1886 the Opels had made a bicycle of their own, and the following year young Carl went to England to study the new industry and bring back samples of the latest designs. This led to serious production of cycles, including low-wheeled and three-wheeled types, by the end of 1887. The growing bands of enthusiasts for the novel means of locomotion knew they could count on Opel for the newest and best ideas in cycling in Germany. In fact, all Opel brothers were outstanding, prize-winning racers.

Adam Opel never lived to see the automobiles built by the company he founded. He died in 1895. His will set up a new organization for the company, in which his widow Sophie held the primary interest and his two eldest sons had lesser shares.

Their first crisis was a sudden deflation of the boom in bicycles in 1898, a collapse caused by the over-expansion among the many makers of cycles. They managed to carry on. New products were introduced that kept on the more than 1,500 employees, most of whom had grown up in the industry with Opel. The bicycle plant expanded, eventually becoming the largest in the mid-1920s, with a capacity of 4,000 cycles a day, with innovative equipment such as automatic painting and plating equipment in halls pressurized for ideal cleanliness.

By the 1930s, times had changed. In a series of transactions between 1929 and 1931, the Opel family sold their business, Adam Opel AG, to General Motors Corporation, of which it became a subsidiary. In 1936, Opel sold its bicycle plant to NSU in Neckarsulm (which had started making bicycles at about the same time as Opel). Under the company's many different names, 2.5 million bikes had been produced in all.

title: Adam Opel


text: User talk:85.220.5.82

title: User talk:85.220.5.82


text:
Jacquelyn Mayer

Jacquelyn Jeanne Mayer (born August 20, 1942) is an American actress and beauty queen who was crowned Miss Ohio 1962 and Miss America 1963 and currently travels the United States as a motivational speaker, noted for her recovery from a near-fatal stroke suffered at age 28.

Early life and education
Mayer graduated Sandusky High School in 1960, spending much of her senior year in Austria as an exchange student, and then attended Northwestern University, where a friend encouraged her to enter the Miss America contest for the scholarship money offered to the winner.

Pageantry
She was first crowned Miss Vacationland (representing her native Sandusky and Lake Erie Islands region) in 1962 - becoming the first ever winner of the crown, then went on to win the Miss Ohio pageant later that year. On September 8, 1962, at Atlantic City's Boardwalk Hall, she was crowned Miss America 1963.

Mayer is an executive director of the Miss Vacationland pageant.

Health issues and activism
In 1970, Mayer suffered a stroke in the early hours following a Thanksgiving evening with her family. She was rushed to the hospital and though surviving, spent the next seven years in rehabilitation needing to re-learn such simple tasks as the alphabet and basic motor functions. Thirty years later, having regained the ability to walk and speak, Mayer considers herself 90% recovered. Firelands Regional Medical Center in Sandusky, formerly known as Providence Hospital, features the Jackie Mayer Rehab & Skilled Nursing Center.

For over 20 years, Mayer has dedicated her life to assisting stroke survivors and their families. She has been a spokeswoman for the American Heart Association, made educational films to raise stroke awareness, helped found the National Stroke Association, and has appeared on Good Morning America and The Phil Donahue Show, and her story has been featured in magazines such as People and Family Circle.

Personal life
She married John Townsend and has two children, Bill Townsend, a technology entrepreneur, and Kelly Rostic, a former anchorwoman with NBC and Fox.

Awards and honors
Beauty pageants
 * Miss Vacationland 1962
 * Miss Ohio 1962
 * Miss America 1963

Halls of Fame
 * Ohio Women's Hall of Fame inductee (class of 1997)

State/Local
 * Section of State Route 2 running through Erie County named "Jackie Mayer Miss America Highway".

Other
 * Honorary Doctorate Degree from Lourdes College

title: Jacquelyn Mayer


text:
Talk:Systems design

Merge with Systems Development Life Cycle
Think that this article and other related articles should be combined into a coherent or a System Development Life Cycle article. Agree? --Ansell 07:18, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, and that the notion of Systems should not be confined to Computer Systems.

--Matt Whyndham March 2006

I agree, the discipline of systems should be exclusive to computing and information systems, but all general complex systems. The design priniciples that make "good" systems should be essentially universal. I agree with the above statement that this article should be merged with or at least edited to include definitions from other general systems articles.

Scotteggs (talk) 16:51, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Missions Technology
This section stinks of self-promotion to me. It's badly done, a massive insertion by an IP user, copied from elsewhere (I believe from the strange added spaces) and mentions a person without given a reference. I have a tiny memory of some controversy over insertions elsewhere something like this. Shenme 08:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Parts removed
I removed the following two parts, because they are unreadable and it is hard to understand how they are related. - Mdd 13:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Processes and methods
URDAD, the Use-case/responsibility driven analysis and design method provides an algorithmic process for designing a system in a way which encourages good design principles.

Missions Technology
Computer technology has been fueled by Moore's Law. From fundamental capabilities and basic capacities the law   propelled the growth of  information technology. Beginning with the technology advances of integrated  circuits thesetranslated to  high level devices and  delivery peripherals further leading  to the building of  stand alone systems such as ERP.

From the earliest building blocks to components, then systems and now to missions. Today the emphasis is on integrating these systems into an extended enterprise. Beyond that the next generation of product offerings will be the development delivery and execution of extended  enterprise  missions.

Missions integrate methods and processes that work through technology and without-technology. They form part of the overall extended enterprise but enforce a critical  requirement - the development and execution of a concept  or a mission that belongs to the extended enterprise and  utilizes the whole to achieve the objective.

Enterprise Missions are complex entities. The complexity begins with the software and business process   specifications and the architecture and  design required  to achieve its purpose. Additionally non-technology  processes  have to be  integrated into the whole and is a  crucial component of the mission.

Once defined the mission is built executed and its objective reached. The organizational structures that define the mission will differ from existing management and executive trees. In a war the General is now in charge. In the future the Technology & Process Builders will be in charge with the  General reporting to them.

The Intraclient Waterford College of English Studies is a mission. The Rolling Stones concert tour is a mission.

Doom can be recreated as a mission. Pixar is a missions technology company. itunes and Ipod could be moulded into a missions proposition.

A mission is a large scale technological deployment of a product or space that is occupied by an enterprise and  contributes a major portion of its objective to   corporates revenues. It also is a major share of the net income.

Common Characteristics of Missions are
 * 1) Architectural Complexity and Process Conceptualization
 * 2) Concurrent processing (hardware & software)
 * 3) Contention for shared resources (CPU, memory, channels, disk, etc)
 * 4) Dynamic Interactions and integration between technological and manual Subsystems, methods and modes.
 * 5) Performance dictated by channel protocols (e.g. arbitration policies, transfer modes, co-channel interference, collisions)
 * 6) Static analysis techniques like queuing theory ignore channel contention – providing theoretical upper bound on performance (poor predictive value for architectural tradeoffs)
 * 7) Complex Functionality
 * 8) Validation of complex algorithms and protocols is essential
 * 9) Quantitative and/or qualitative performance dictated by algorithmic tradeoff studies

The Solution comprises an Integrated Approach for HW and SW and the development of the - Operational Environment (mobiles, basestations, etc) using  Channel Models. shared resources and concurrent processes. The architecture is built for transaction and workloads and future generation system design requirements. This is a total integration approach combining manual, emotional and technical methods and process into a single approach and managing that approach. The systems are developed with the necessary overall concepts, algorithms, protocols and controls to gain advantage over competitors  and to secure and achieve the objective. To calculate progress, behavioral and performance analysis is built  into the process. The design specification calls for all these as an executable specification of the various  technological and non-technical components and interfaces.

Balram Shotam of Palo Alto, California invented the term Missions Technology (MST) and foresees it as the a new way for software companies to emerge within the industrial complex.

Wrong title
I consider 'Systems design' as the wrong title. Correctly, the title should be 'System design', i.e. the design of a system by means of systems theory.

--Studi321 (talk) 07:16, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia is built on reliable sources, see WP:RS, and not on personal opinions.
 * For example the 1996 Federal Standard 1037C does mentions both the term "System analysis" and "systems analysis", acknowledging "System analysis" as synonym of "systems analysis". However it does not mention "system design" at all.
 * You could add the term "system design" to the introduction, if you add a reliable source stating "Systems design" and "system design" are synonym. Replacing "Systems design" by "System design" is POV, and should be undone in this stage. -- Mdd (talk) 11:53, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

 * "System design" (singular) is a term of common use, when applied to the design of a specific system. However when applied to the field in general, it has always (IMHE) been described as "systems design" in the plural. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:40, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

 * I understand the two candidates in the same way that does. The article should remain Systems design since it covers the field in general. ~KvnG 15:11, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

✅ Thank you all. Since there is no support for these changes, the changes have been undone, see here. -- Mdd (talk) 19:47, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Overview
I sure don't understand the following in the Overview:

''Until the 1990s, systems design had a crucial and respected role in the data processing industry. In the 1990s, standardization of hardware and software resulted in the ability to build modular systems. The increasing importance of software running on generic platforms has enhanced the discipline of software engineering.''

I don't understand what happened in the 1990s and I sure don't understand how standardization is relevant. I don't understand how standardization is relevant to modularity. My impression is that the preceding is something written by a relatively young person that thinks the old ways are archaic. There is no doubt that computer hardware and software has improved drastically but I see no explanation here of what has changed. There needs to be an explanation for why this claim is made but it is likely that the claim has no explanation. Sam Tomato (talk) 19:27, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand these two sentences,

It involves a detailed design of a user and a product database structure processor and a control processor.

The H/S personal specification is developed for the proposed system.

The article would better if they were deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Janekdb (talk • contribs) 12:15, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Systems design


text:
Famines in Ethiopia

Famines in Ethiopia have occurred periodically throughout the history of the country.

The economy was based on subsistence agriculture, with an aristocracy that consumed the surplus. Due to a number of causes, the peasants have lacked incentives to either improve production or to store their excess crops; as a result, they lived from harvest to harvest. Despite the extensive modernization and land reform in the country during the last 120 years, especially under Emperor Haile Selassie, as of 2016, about 80% of the population are poor farmers who still live from harvest to harvest and are vulnerable to crop failures.

title: Famines in Ethiopia


text:
Talk:Jacobins

Clean up but don't efface
This is an interesting article, but it has that century-old 1911 EB fragrance that suggests it should be a candidate for cleanup. References to "the mob," for example, indicate a POV that deserves closer examination of assumptions and more careful statement of conclusions. On the other hand, it's hard not to appreciate the vigor of a passage such as:

 * In the earlier stages of the Revolution the mob had been satisfied with the fine platitudes of the philosophes and the vague promise of a political millennium; but as the chaos in the body politic grew, and with it the appalling material misery, it began to clamour for the blood of the traitors in office by whose corrupt machinations the millennium was delayed, and only those orators were listened to who pandered to its suspicions. Hence the elimination of the moderate elements from the club; hence the ascendancy of Marat, and finally of Robespierre, the secret of whose power was that they really shared the suspicions of the populace, to which they gave a voice and which they did not shrink from translating into action.

I only hope that whoever edits this in order to turn it into a more encyclopedic article can preserve this bold descriptive prose, while demystifying "it" (the mob, the body politic, the populace or whoever).

The article needs, first and foremost, a clearer chronological narrative for those of us who do not know each stage of the French Revolution and its players; it could also use some topic headings simply to break up the text. We also should incorporate the text of Jacobin, which is more about the word than the club or its members, it seems. Italo Svevo 01:38, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Note to whoever took this on: if 1911 EB prose is vivid, but too POV, you can set it off with phrases like "characterized in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica as..." -- Jmabel | Talk 23:03, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not going to be sucked into a reversion war...
... but I think this is a poor edit, and would welcome someone else's reverting back to my version. The edit removes the cleanup tag from an article that I think still needs a lot of cleanup, turns m-dashes into double hyphens, and substitutes a generally inferior (in some case frivolous or even misspelled) set of section headings. Since I've already reverted this person twice, I leave it to someone else to make the next move. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:12, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Steve espanola has basically followed my hours of work ni converting the old cleanup archives to the new cleanup system, frivously removing cleanup tags and vandalizing page after page after page...this is merely one front in a expansive edit war. Thanks for your help! — HopeSeekr of xMule (Talk) 17:07, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Adding the third opinion that Jmabel's version, with the change HopeSeekr made in his last edit, is preferable to Steve Espinola's. The Literate Engineer 21:13, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Eponynm of Rue St Jacques
Who was the St Jacques after whom the street was named? Was this the apostle St James, or some other saint? JackofOz 01:30, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
 * For anybody who may have been getting around to responding, I've now posted the question on Reference desk/Miscellaneous. Please respond there only. JackofOz 01:55, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Major edit partly retreated
This major edit seems to me to have removed several legitimate citations quite a bit of good material, which I have generally restored, in some cases rewriting. In several places, it also restored the relatively stilted language of the 1911 Britannica; in general, I have not gone through and dealt with that (someone may want to), though I did revert one area where Britannica was very POV (giving a justification for the terror: we now, again, cite this as Britannica's view, rather than having it in the narrative voice. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

To be merged?
There was a student essay that was posted into Jacobin almost a year ago. At that time, I had moved it to Jacobin/Sandbox and pretty much forgotten about it until WikiGnome Cje reminded me today. It was, frankly, not all that good, but there was some good material there. I've heavily rewritten it, wikified it, etc. The result may or may not be worth merging here; I'd appreciate outside opinions. - Jmabel | Talk 22:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Marat not a member
Marat was never officially a member of the jacobin Club - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 35.8.219.118 (talk • contribs) 06:45, 29 November 2006.

 * True. Fixed. Foraminifera 17:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, somebody un-fixed it then. I'll re-fix it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TimSheehan (talk • contribs) 12:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC).

Date of Robespierre's execution
The date listed as Robespierre's execution was wrong, so I've taken the liberty of changing it. (Specifically - it was actually 10 Thermidor, year II, or July 28, 1794; not 9 Thermidor, year III, or July 29, 1794)

Too Harsh?
Is it just me, or does the attitude of this article towards its subject matter seems somewhat negatively biased? - 76.84.130.190 (talk) 01:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Could you be more specific about what you see as issues? - Jmabel | Talk 03:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Robespierre is selectively and quite unfairly quoted on the Terror. The article puts these words in his mouth, "Terror is only justice that is prompt, severe and inflexible."  Following the link, that appears to be taken from a slightly different translation of this passage (bold text to highlight the approximate source), "If the spring of popular government in time of peace is virtue, the springs of popular government in revolution are at once virtue and terror: virtue, without which terror is fatal; terror, without which virtue is powerless. Terror is nothing other than justice, prompt, severe, inflexible; it is therefore an emanation of virtue; it is not so much a special principle as it is a consequence of the general principle of democracy applied to our country's most urgent needs. "  Stripped of context, he is being made out to be a tyrant, but in the context of the paragraph it's clear that Robespierre has in mind an emergency measure.  (The following paragraph is important for giving a sense of Robespierre's thinking, as well.)  If it's necessary to have a one-liner from him on Terror, then it should probably be, "the first maxim of your policy ought to be to lead the people by reason and the people's enemies by terror."  --Nixin06 (talk) 14:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

 * Hi Nixin06, thanks for your comments. I was editing the Robespierre page some time ago and meant to eventually improve the section on the terror, but never finished. In my opinion, the events leading up to and following the split with the Girondists need more attention; the section on the terror could also use improvement. If you have a number of sources available, some time, and want to improve this section, you can do so, without worrying about the talk pages unless someone raises concerns. Good luck! If you don't have time, I still hope to get there eventually... -Darouet (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

 * I agree that we ought to be fair to all subjects, guided only by the facts. The thing is, when we follow our code on a subject like the Jacobins, the article is bound to create a negative impression, because they of the atrocities they committed. This is not negative "bias," which would require a manipulation of the facts (at the very least, over-emphasis of the bad actions of the subject, and, more cleverly, elisions of facts that, if included, would portray the subject in a positive light.) With the Jacobins, any fair article is bound to create a negative impression — I mean, golly, they chopped off more heads than ISIS has, and you know how the average person regards ISIS's atrocities. Most people just feel uneasy with organizations for whom beheadings are the modus operandi. Very similar allegations of bias constantly come up on the talk pages for political movements that utilize mass-murder as a political tool — see for example, the archives of the "Fascism" article's talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.44.173 (talk) 01:27, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Chronology
I'm going to change the headings around to make them more chronological. ("Fall of Monarchy" comes before "Paris") 71.131.23.199 (talk) 21:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

"war of sticks and chairs"?
This phrase is used in the article, yet I've never heard of it. A Google search only gives me an article from the Encyclopedea Brittanica (from which this article was apparently copied). If anyone knows what this means, please replace this phrase with something that a modern English speaker can understand! 96.236.163.224 (talk) 01:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

A little clean up, clairification
A good article but i think it needs some cleaning up and some clarification. The French revolution is notoriously complex, as is the Napoleonic wars; but i think it can be more succinct, descriptive and informative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jenkinsear (talk • contribs) 03:01, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

 * One concern is that the diversity and complexity of the club isn't captured very well. Jacobin club was characterized by a myriad array of political tendencies all representing a different mixture of political perspectives and social policies. Nowhere is this seen more clearly than in the debates surrounding the onset of war in spring 1792, the fall of the monarchy that summer, the autumn radicalization and subsequent trial of the king. If nobody else works on this I'll contribute in the coming weeks. - Darouet | Talk 11:00, 21 July 20011 (UTC)

Move
I see this was moved from Jacobin to the current title to distinguish it from the use of Jacobin as a general political derogation of radical leftist politics. However, surely I cannot be the only one who finds the inclusion of our article on Jacobinism under this title to be extremely odd. I suggest that the political article (such as it is which is not very much) retain its current title at Jacobin (Politics) and this be restored back to good old, straightforward, tried and true, consistent with every History Book on the French Revolution index entry Jacobin. Eusebeus (talk) 14:10, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I also find it odd, and it's also annoying that Jacobin itself is a dab page. French Revolutionary Jacobins are the most common usage. The Jacobin (politics) article is muddled in that it attempts to describe the French Jacobins as well as all other manifestations of the term in politics. I think it should be edited to reflect its worldwide approach, and perhaps even renamed to Jacobinism (politics); its French Revolutionary material should be merged into Jacobin which should be reserved strictly for the historical French term; and Jacobin Club should just be a redirect to Jacobin just like Cordeliers Club redirects to Cordeliers. SteveStrummer (talk) 16:39, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. -Darouet (talk) 16:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

 * Done -- check to make sure that's all the way you want it (makes sense to me too, by the way, as this is the main usage of 'Jacobin'). Antandrus (talk) 22:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Infobox
I disagree with the inclusion of a Template:Infobox political party in this article. It was added - without consensus - by IP User:79.56.242.42 whom I suspect of being identical with multiply banned User:Sonny1998/User:Absolute98 in July 2014. I didn't have this article on my watchlist, so I just became aware of the addition recently. The infobox was designed for political parties in the modern sense and has parameters that fit modern political parties. The Jacobins were a revolutionary era political movement and club that differed from modern-time political parties significantly. Therefore most of the parameters of the infobox just make no sense. Using this infobox template is anachronistic. Moreover it mostly contains WP:original research that is not referenced in the article, especially the "popular wing", "paramilitary wing" and "religion" sections. The information in the infobox even contradicts the rest of the article: according to the infobox, Mirabeau was the Jacobins' president from 1789-1791, the article however has Aiguillon as their president on 8 February 1790 and later informs us that the president was elected anew every month. Therefore it is dubious (and in default of references unverifiable) if the four presidents in the infobox and their tenures are correct. If the office of the president in fact rotated quickly, it would not be praticable anyway to list all the presidents in the infobox. In my opinion the use of this infobox is not at all helpful, on the contrary: I find it even counterproductive as it produces misperceptions. There is no rule that every article needs or should have an infobox. In some cases they are simply not fitting. --RJFF (talk) 21:29, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

 * When the infobox was added, without being reverted, its presence gained implicit consensus, I think, which it has kept for 6 months. If not this type of infobox, then which one? An article doesn't have to have an infobox, but this one seems to work (although the various parameters may contain controversial information that gets argued over, especially political ideology, leading to edit warring, but also indicating the vitality of such a summary). The political party infobox has parameters to provide for a party becoming defunct, which applies to the Jacobins, so it's not restricted to current political parties (and just how were the Jacobins inherently different from modern political parties?). As far as there being original research, how defined? Original research often means eyewitness accounts not published, and that's unlikely here. Dhtwiki (talk) 07:08, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Perhaps I have used the wrong term. I mean information that is not referenced and therefore not verifiable. --RJFF (talk) 19:51, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not totally against having this infobox, provided that all parameters that are not applicable or contain unverifiable information are deleted. The problem is that - from my experience - infoboxes attract a certain type of editors, who do not like to research reliable sources or occupy themselves with a subject in detail, but simply drop some keywords in the infobox, without having real knowledge about the subject, without citing references to make the content verifiable and in some cases - like this one - leading to an infobox whose content does not correspond with the actual article and even has information that contradicts the content of the article's body. Based on my experience infoboxes often act as honeypots that attract unfounded, unverifiable edits and additions. For some reason these users have greater restraints to edit the article's prose than the infobox. Therefore my favourite solution would be to delete the infobox altogether, because no user can guarantee to keep it clean of unverifiable information added by casual contributors who do not bother to go into the subject in detail and provide reliable sources for their theories. --RJFF (talk) 20:05, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Hi Dhtwiki - I think that RJFF is correct, in that the info box as currently presented is wrong on a number of fronts. I'll let people with more experience using info boxes decide what's possible, but I agree that in theory we could use a modified info box so long as the information is carefully sourced using modern scholarship. It's true that calling the French Revolutionary Army the "paramilitary wing" of the Jacobin Club is way off. And I'm curious as to whether we can establish what the official Jacobin religion was - since they were actually incredibly diverse in their views socially and politically, and Robespierre, at one end of the spectrum, only represents one faction in the club.
 * This relates to a greater problem, which is that this article is in a pitiful shape compared to what it could be (neither of your faults!). One section from the French page is well cited, and maybe I could bring material from there, if I ever have time. -Darouet (talk) 21:55, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Please feel free to comment on each of these points (and, preferably, to provide references for the information you want to keep, as the onus to establish verifiability is on the user who wants the information in the article, not on the one who doubts it). --RJFF (talk) 22:40, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Secularism is not a religion, but a policy. Even if the Jacobins were secular, it would not belong in the religion field.
 * 2) That the Jacobin Club was committed to Deism is unsourced, needs a reference per WP:V
 * 3) That the Jacobins' "official" ideology was Jacobinism is highly dubious. The term Jacobinism was coined after the Jacobin Club, not the other way round.
 * 4) Liberal democracy is not an ideology, but a form of government. Parties of many different ideologies may exist in a liberal democracy and support liberal democracy.
 * 5) Constitutionalism, Left-wing nationalism, Radical democracy, Radicalism may or may not be accurate. Anyhow, they are unsourced and should be removed unless a user provides a reference to a reliable source supporting these claims.
 * 6) The list of presidents is unreferenced. The article about Mirabeau says that he was elected president of the Jacobin Club only in December 1790, this infobox claims that he served from 1789 to 1791. Moreover this article reads "On 8 February 1790 the society became formally constituted on this broader basis by the adoption of the rules drawn up by Barnave, which were issued with the signature of the duc d'Aiguillon, the president", which evidently contradicts the information in the infobox. In the article about Cloots I do not find that he ever was president of the Jacobins, only that he was exluded from them. Neither do I find in the article about Barras or in Thermidorian Reaction that Barras became the Jacobins' president after Robespierre. It may or may not be true, anyway it is not verifiable and should therefore be removed until someone provides a reference.
 * 7) "Vivre libre ou mourir" was a motto generally used during the French Revolution, not only by the Jacobins. It was the tagline of "Le Vieux Cordelier" which was a newspaper opposed to the Jacobins. It may also have been used by the Jacobins. In that case, I do not insist on deleting it.
 * 8) The Jacobins themselves had "7,000 chapters throughout France, with a membership estimated at a half-million or more". It was a popular organisation. I don't know how many members the Fraternal Society of Patriots of Both Sexes had, probably less. There were some links between the Fraternal Society and the Jacobins, but also with the Cordeliers. I see absolutely no reason why the Fraternal Society should be called the "popular wing" of the Jacobin Club. This is neither mentioned in the one nor the other article.
 * 9) The French Revolutionary Army was the army of the French First Republic; not the "paramilitary wing" of the Jacobins.

 * Thanks RJFF: agree material should be left out unless it's sourced, and the points you've assembled above provide a good baseline for discussion moving forward. -Darouet (talk) 00:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Secularism may not a religion?, I don't know, but you've also removed Deism and Cult of the Supreme Being, which are less obviously non-religious. The usual procedure if there is unsourced material, is to put up "citation needed" templates, not to remove the information completely. This is not a biography of a living person, and unsourced material doesn't need to come down right away. However, it's the complete removal of the list of presidents that is really too sweeping. Mirabeau certainly should be there, with end date changed to 1790. Following him was a "triumvirate" of people who were evidently most influential, whose names I don't see; but the duc d'Aigillon is mentioned as being president for some of that time. Robespierre certainly deserves his place in the order of leaders, and the dates seem right. Also the club itself seems to still exist, according to French Wikipedia, so the complaint that it is defunct, and not worthy of this particular infobox, is dubious at best. As for the other issues, I may come back to that later. Dhtwiki (talk) 03:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Dhtwiki, a better format for discussion here is answering RJFF's points one at a time, with sources. If you find scholarly material and show that it supports information added in the info box, nobody will be complaining. -Darouet (talk) 04:58, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Short description
Apologies. . I’ve amended the Short Description - via the Edit button built in to the page display - and now found to my surprise tht there’s no opportunity to give an edit-summary.

So here we go:

(For some readers, the Jacobins were *victims* of the Montagnards - an ‘internal splinter group’ which took over from the broader Jacobin movement and imposed the Reign of Terror. The Short Description (“The more radical group”) risked puzzling / confusing readers who aren’t thinking of the Feuilletins at all.  The article itself does the detail, of course: but to help the reader at the Short Description stage I’ve changed it: The more radical group [ The more radical constitutional reform group)

Hope that helps.

- SquisherDa (talk) 14:50, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Move to Jacobin Club?
Any interest in moving this article to Jacobin Club or The Jacobin Club, then replacing Jacobin with a redirect to Jacobin (disambiguation)? There's 14 articles on the disambiguation page, so it may make sense for that to be the main page. Thoughts? – Novem Linguae (talk) 11:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Definition deletion
Colloquial definitions of the word "Jacobin" is provided in the introduction. However, this page is concerned with the historical Jacobins, not its use in general politics. Thus, this paragraph should be on the Jacobin_(politics) page - except that page already has the definition. So let's delete this paragraph. Skingski (talk) 03:39, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 18 February 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 20:19, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Jacobin → Jacobins – Should be in plural - it's either 'The Jacobin Club' or 'The Jacobins'. Statskvinde (talk) 20:19, 18 February 2023 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support alternate move to The Jacobins per WP:THE and its common name in other encyclopedia articles. I also support moving Jacobin (politics) to Jacobinism per WP:NATURAL. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose any title which includes "The" as that is just an article, not part of the name. It is unnecessary. Either "Jacobin" or "Jacobins" should do.  Quite more reluctant about "Jacobin Club" - dislike uppercase c (not really its proper name), and in any case there were multiple clubs by that name in many French towns, and the term includes newspapers and political/ideological labels and epithets, not only in France, but also abroad. This article is a bit more all-encompassing than just narrowly the affairs of one society in Paris. Walrasiad (talk) 04:05, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Zxcvbnm Thanks for the support, although as @Walrasiad says I think article names should exclude 'the' in cases like this (about groups of people). @Walrasiad You don't oppose the 'Jacobins' variant so probably you should have written 'Support' instead of 'Oppose' as your opposition is against @Zxcvbnm's suggestion of 'The Jacobins' as an article name. Statskvinde. And yes, in the 'reason' I wrote that the group is known either as 'The Jacobins' or 'The Jacobin Club' but the suggestion itself is the page to be moved to just 'Jacobins' without 'The'. Statskvinde (talk) 08:10, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support original proposal move to Jacobins per WP:PLURAL. Oppose adding "The" to the title per WP:THE. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:00, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree with Walrasiad: no "The" in any case, either Jacobin or Jacobins seems fine, so default to leave it as is. Srnec (talk) 15:41, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Srnec There is no 'The' in the suggestion - it's about moving it to 'Jacobins' which should be done as per the reason I gave and what the other users said - it should atleast be in the plural but in no way in the singular. A 'Jacobin' is just a member of the Jacobin club. Again, the group is either known as ' The Jacobin club ' or collectively ' The Jacobins '. And because we all agree that there should not be a definite article in the page name, then the page name itself should be ' Jacobins ', same as Christians, Muslims etc. Statskvinde (talk) 20:33, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * See Tory for a counterexample. Srnec (talk) 21:12, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Srnec Irrelevant. This is about a kind of person as said in Tory itself ("A Tory (/ˈtɔːri/) is a person who holds a political philosophy known as Toryism"), just like Jacobin (short description: "Member of the French revolutionary political movement known as the Jacobin Club"). Statskvinde (talk) 21:18, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about groups of people. [a] Jacobin =/= [the] Jacobins Statskvinde (talk) 21:19, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Clear common name and primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:52, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jacobins


text:
User:Vav11

I am Vav11. See my userboxes. I occasionally make edits; however, I often read Wikipedia.

Places I've Been*:
 * 🇺🇸 The United States of America
 * Alaska
 * Arizona
 * California
 * Colorado
 * Florida
 * Kansas
 * Missouri
 * Nevada
 * New Mexico
 * Oklahoma
 * Texas
 * Washington
 * 🇨🇦 Canada
 * British Columbia
 * 🇯🇲 Jamaica
 * 🇲🇽 Mexico
 * Baja California
 * Sonora

 * Including only places I've been on the ground in, and outside of the airport

title: User:Vav11


text:
User talk:PrezDave99

Some of the people, places or things you have written about in the article David Dailey may not be sufficiently well-known to merit articles of their own. The Wikipedia community welcomes newcomers, and encourages them to become Wikipedians. On Wikipedia, each user is entitled to a user page in which they can describe themselves, and this article's content may be incorporated into that page. However, to merit inclusion in the encyclopedia proper, a subject must be notable. We encourage you to write or improve articles on notable subjects.

title: User talk:PrezDave99


text:
Wily Mo Peña

Wily Modesto Peña Gutierrez (born January 23, 1982) is a Dominican former professional baseball outfielder. He played in Major League Baseball (MLB) for the Cincinnati Reds, Boston Red Sox, Washington Nationals, Arizona Diamondbacks and Seattle Mariners, and in NPB for the Fukuoka SoftBank Hawks and Orix Buffaloes. At 6 feet, 3 inches in height and nearly 300 pounds, the right-handed batting and throwing Peña is considered a pure power hitter best known for his long-distance home runs and high strikeout rate.

Professional career
Originally signed by the New York Mets as an amateur free agent in 1998, Peña signed with the New York Yankees about a year later and was traded to the Cincinnati Reds for third baseman/designated hitter Drew Henson and outfielder Michael Coleman in 2001.

Cincinnati Reds
Pena debuted with the Reds as a September call-up in 2002, and got a single while pinch hitting in his first major league at-bat. Peña proved his label as a power hitter, hitting a home run in his second major league game, off Chicago Cubs pitcher Steve Smyth.

From 2003 through 2005, Peña was a fourth outfielder with the Reds, and saw substantial playing time in center field covering for the often injured Ken Griffey Jr., and backing up Austin Kearns in right field. Over his career in Cincinnati, Peña batted .248 with 51 home runs and 134 RBIs in 302 games.

Boston Red Sox
The Reds traded Peña to the Boston Red Sox during spring training in 2006 for pitcher Bronson Arroyo. Over the course of the season, Peña again served as a fourth outfielder and one half of a platoon in right field. He batted a career-high .301 with a personal best on-base percentage of .349 in 299 plate appearances. Following an injury to Coco Crisp, Peña filled in at center field. On May 27, he was placed on the 15-day disabled list after surgery was required for an injured tendon in his left wrist. On July 18, Pena was activated from the disabled list. After platoon-mate Trot Nixon injured his biceps on July 30, Peña played more frequently in right field. The next day he fell a double short of hitting for the cycle in a 9–8 win over the Cleveland Indians. Pena hit .301 with 11 home runs in the 2006 season. The only action Peña saw in 2007 with the Red Sox was filling in for Crisp and J. D. Drew in center and right field. Peña hit a grand slam off closer Chris Ray of the Baltimore Orioles to help the Red Sox to a 5–2 victory on April 26. Throughout the season, Peña was rumored to be on the trading block, including a deal at the trade deadline that failed to go through.

Washington Nationals
On August 17, Peña was traded to the Washington Nationals, with the Red Sox receiving 25-year-old first baseman Chris Carter and the Arizona Diamondbacks receiving Emiliano Fruto and cash considerations from Washington. Peña hit well for the Nationals, and finished 2007 with a cumulative 289 at-bats, 13 home runs and he batted .259 with a .319 on-base percentage and a .439 slugging percentage.

His $2.3 million signing bonus is now the third largest ever for an amateur free agent. In December 2007, he signed a one-year contract with the Nationals for $2 million with a mutual option for 2009 of $2 million.

On March 28, 2009, Peña was designated for assignment by the Nationals and placed on waivers. Peña went unclaimed and declined an assignment to the minor leagues so he was unconditionally released.

New York Mets
On April 20, 2009, Peña signed a minor league deal with the New York Mets and was assigned to Triple-A Buffalo. He was released on June 22, 2009.

Bridgeport Bluefish
On May 30, 2010, Pena began playing for the Bridgeport Bluefish, an independent team in the Atlantic League. In 38 games for Bridgeport, Peña hit .310 with 8 home runs and 38 runs batted in. During the offseason Wily played for the Tigres del Licey of the Dominican Winter League.

San Diego Padres
On July 19, 2010, Peña was signed to a minor league deal by the Padres and assigned to Triple-A Portland.

Arizona Diamondbacks
Peña signed a minor league contract with an invitation to spring training with the Arizona Diamondbacks prior to the 2011 season. As of mid-June, he was hitting .356 with 21 homers and 62 RBIs for the team's Triple-A affiliate in Reno. He was called up on June 21 and hit a home run that night in his first major league game in 3 years.

In a game against the Detroit Tigers on June 24, Pena launched a go-ahead homer an estimated 454 feet deep into the left-field seats at Comerica Park to give the Diamondbacks a 7–6 lead and the eventual victory.

Four days later, in a game at Chase Field with the Cleveland Indians tied at 4 in the bottom of the ninth inning and Ryan Roberts on third base, Peña powered a walk-off homer into the seats in left field giving the D-Backs a 6–4 win.

On July 15, 2011, Peña was designated for assignment. He was released on July 24.

Seattle Mariners
Pena signed a minor league contract with the Seattle Mariners on July 27, 2011. He had his contract purchased on August 13. He elected free agency on October 30.

In 76 minor league games that year, Pena hit 25 home runs with 77 RBI, with a line of .358 / .440 / .712 and an OPS 1.152.

Fukuoka SoftBank Hawks
On November 29, 2011, Pena signed a 2-year contract with the Fukuoka SoftBank Hawks of the Nippon Professional Baseball (NPB).

In 2012, he hit .280 with 21 home runs and 76 RBI in 130 games.

In 2013, he hit .233 with 16 RBI and 1 home run in 55 games.

Orix Buffaloes
In 2014, he hit .255 with 32 homers and 90 RBIs in 140 games for the Orix Buffaloes of NPB.

Rakuten Golden Eagles
In 2015, Peña moved to the Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles of NPB where he hit .268 with 17 home runs.

Cleveland Indians
On February 6, 2017, Peña signed a one-year minor-league contract with the Cleveland Indians. The team released him at the end of spring training.

Chiba Lotte Marines
On June 6, 2017, Pena signed with the Chiba Lotte Marines of NPB.

Philanthropy
In 2007, Peña and his MoPeace Foundation teamed up with Joslin Diabetes Center's Latino Diabetes Initiative for the Beisbol y Salud Latino Diabetes and Health Festival to educate Latino men, women and children about type 2 diabetes. Peña currently volunteers his time to youth baseball in the Tampa, FL area.

title: Wily Mo Peña


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Dailey

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. — Xezbeth 09:18, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

David Dailey
Couldn't find any criteria to speedy this. It's an obvious case of unabashed (but cute) vanity. Delete and soon. --Dmcdevit 01:42, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) This could be David Dailey's future, if he doesn't have a heart attack by the age of 27 from all the fast food!!!! ;) natrllytan
 * Delete. (Or userify if auto-biographical.) Niteowlneils 02:01, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, notability not established, vanity. Megan1967 02:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, I'm beginning to think we need to launch "Wikiography" for all these non-notable people who keep popping up. Master Thief Garrett 05:17, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll have you know, my brother is a very notable person. He's probably done a lot more than any of you fools. 198.82.120.153 05:56, 2005 Apr 23 (according to history Uncle G 13:15, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC))
 * Indeed, he probably has, but we have to decide upon a minimum notability. This is a very well written article, definitely of school yearbook quality. I know you love your brother and all, but he's no George Bush. And then you go on to list future predictions ("Wikipedia is not a crystal ball") and that's just not allowed.
 * And, as an aside, please please please do not say intentionally offensive things towards other Wikipedians, or your stay with us may turn out to be unexpectedly short. Master Thief Garrett 06:08, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * No threats. Everyking 07:23, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * ooops, it wasn't meant to be! Yes it does sound like one though... ooops... Master Thief Garrett 08:09, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Your brother has a better chance than over 99% of Americans of actually becoming President someday. Bravo! If and when he distinguishes himself as a notable officeholder or figure in his own name, when there's a broad constituency out there that knows and recognizes voted for David Dailey – in the speculative future timeline provided, probably when he's a Commonwealth Attorney and "prominent figure in local politics," certainly at least when he's "elected Mayor of Norfolk in a landslide," it'll be time for his Wikipedia article. Alas, it isn't now. Delete, but to the author, save this somewhere else though – it's sweet. Samaritan 12:24, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * An article from PrezDave99 whose second half tells us that the subject "was" Governor of Virginia in 2025 and President of the United States in 2032. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.  The first half of the article, that isn't utter fiction, tells us, in stark contrast, that this person has worked for IHOP (for a month) and for Starbucks.  The edit summaries all tell us that this person is an "Average Guy".  Average guys don't meet our criteria for inclusion of biographies.  Given the user's account name, I'd vote Userfy, were it not for the fact that PrezDave99 has made no other contributions at all.  As for rewrites: David Dailey the associate mathematics professor doesn't appear to pass the Average Professor test, David Dailey the settler didn't do much of note, David Dailey the author hasn't published a book of his own, and David Dailey the convicted criminal ... isn't President of the United States either.  My vote is therefore Delete. Uncle G 13:15, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)

 * Userify. If it's autobiographical, it should be preserved, as well-written; but moved where it belongs. If it's not autobiographical, PrezDave99 is free to edit for content. Septentrionalis 22:58, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, but I'm thinking of voting for him anyway. What a stand-up guy!--Pharos 07:00, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
User:Houseofblues~enwiki

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

title: User:Houseofblues~enwiki


text:
Chief of the General Staff

The Chief of the General Staff (CGS) is a post in many armed forces (militaries), the head of the military staff.

List

 * Chief of the General Staff (Abkhazia)
 * Chief of General Staff (Afghanistan)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Albania)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Armenia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Australia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Austria)
 * Chief of General Staff of Azerbaijani Armed Forces
 * Chief of the General Staff (Kingdom of Bavaria)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Bulgaria)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Canada)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Chad)
 * Chief of the General Staff (China)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Croatia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Czech Republic)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Czechoslovakia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Denmark)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Egypt)
 * Chief of General Staff (Ethiopia)
 * Chief of General Staff (Georgia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Germany)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Guatemala)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Hungary)
 * Chief of the General Staff (India)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Israel)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Iraq)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Kazakhstan)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Kenya)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Kyrgyzstan)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Kuwait)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Lithuania)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Republic of Macedonia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Moldova)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Montenegro)
 * Chief of General Staff (Mozambique)
 * Chief of the General Staff (North Korea)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Pakistan)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Poland)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Portugal)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Prussia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Russia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Romania)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Senegal)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Serbia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Slovakia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Slovenia)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Somaliland)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Sweden)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Syria)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Taiwan)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Tajikistan)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Transnistria)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Turkey)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Turkmenistan)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Ukraine)
 * Chief of the General Staff (United Kingdom)
 * Deputy Chief of the General Staff (United Kingdom)
 * Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (United States)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Uzbekistan)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Vietnam)
 * Chief of the General Staff (Yugoslavia)

title: Chief of the General Staff


text:
Category:Transport in Lincolnshire

 * Note: Most of Lincolnshire is in the East Midlands region, and some in the Yorkshire and the Humber region.

title: Category:Transport in Lincolnshire