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Talk:Within Temptation

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Sn0wflake: READ THIS PLEASE. About the official source of Unet, just check www.within-temptation.com (look where the chat points at, etc) or the Umbranet. grtz, the WT hostmaster. Please revert changes.

Interesting
It would be interesting if the maintained actually reads this... Put this chatnet on the Wiki, it's trivial history of the band. Or should we have ppl with more rights on Wikipedia to join this discussion?

Sn0wflake: Why is there a link to the official fanclub which is merely commercial in the sense that it doesn't have added value (hence, it gives the same info as on the WT mainsite) but only allows you to be on the member pages and the forum if you contributed admission fee. It's a commercial site. Maybe it's better to link with an independent and objective source on Within Temptation. Or AT LEAST add a message that one must pay for the official fanclub site...

Also, what most people don't know or underestimate: Within Temptation became big with help of the internet! The die-hard people of the first hour, community chatters at Umbranet who contributed a lot of their energy and time (advertising and voting for WT) caused Within Temptation to get airplay the very first time on the Cybertop50 in The Netherlands (remember the Ice Queen breakthrough?), followed up by some airplay on Dutch radio and these people caused several weeks airplay on VIVA+ TV through internet voting; introducing WT to the general German public). Therefore; this open community platform Umbranet (which serves more bands nowadays) should be mentioned in the wiki of this band. It IS part of WT history, and I think it's essential, if some internet things didn't happen, WT was most probably not known to much people outside The Netherlands nowadays and the bandmembers would retain their regular jobs. Don't forget your roots :)

By the way: the band officially calls itself "gothic rock", just check their website source. So one doesn't have to debate on the genre.

 * Hello. Searches on Google for Umbranet plus band names (such as Within Temptation or Ayreon return an insubstantial amount of hits. There is no mention of Umbranet on the bands' official websites either. Statistics for the channels also show low activity - relative to the scale of the Wikipedia. While I do not question that you are acting in good faith, Umbranet simply seems to lack notability to be included on the bands' articles. Official fanclubs, on the other hand, are what we call inherently notable. Which means they are notable by the very fact that they are official fanclubs. Contact me if you need further clarification. --Sn0wflake 20:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi, please check out the official sits and see where the chat leads to. Check the list of chatters on the band websits, that directly comes from Umbranet. So there IS a mention on the official websites, because their OFFICIAL chat runs there... And this system is open, not like the official fanclub which asks a financial contribution (then please at least mention this on the wiki). Also noting, a few of the Umbranet people are directly responsible for mainsites of some of the bands listed in Umbranet. Consider it to be a framework.

 * This dispute can be worked out in a simple manner, then. You may add the Umbranet external link if, and only if, the band's official website contains a weblink to the Umbranet website. When you add the external link to the Wikipedia article, please write the URL of where the link on the official website is at the "edit summary" box. Cheers. --Sn0wflake 17:51, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I've removed "german". This is a Dutch band singing in English... If there is something like "german goth metal" then an explanation is needed what makes Within Temptation's songs "german goth metal" and not generic "goth metal". Shinobu 21:41, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This page is on my watchlist and I've seen "goth metal" edited in and out again for what seems like a million times. Since it is obviously possible to have different opinions in this matter, I tried to compromise by stating "goth metal / symph. metal". I hope this edit will give the article some peace. If you still feel inclined to change things, then I suggest discussing things here on the talk page first. Shinobu 17:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I actually edited out "goth metal" myself. Within Temptation is not goth metal. They lack plenty of elements of what it is to be goth. They are not dark or depressing. Their lyrics are about love, nature and fantasy, not darkness and despair. Their music is also light (for a metal band). Lenne 17:51, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Not dark or depressing? What about songs like "Frozen," "Forsaken," "Pale," "Final Destination," "Angels," "It's the Fear," "Our Farewell," "Caged"... The list goes on and on, and the thing is, while I personally know a good deal of the lyrics to confirm this, anyone can tell just from the titles that the songs are going to be dark/depressing. I think WT's music deserves the "gothic" label.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.92.106.83 (talk) 15:19, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Despite your shotgun approach to the situation, I tend to agree that Within Temptation cannot be considered a goth metal band. Perhaps "symhponic metal with gothic metal influences" is the ideal way to solve this problem? --Sn0wflake 18:36, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * But that's just the thing. They don't have gothic metal influences. If you can quote an article where they've stated they have gothic metal influences, or can give gothic metal influence examples from their music, I'd be for it. But right now, it's a no for me. Lenne 22:43, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

That "kursiefje" on "not" was uncalled for. Within Tempation's music can be seen as to agree with the definition stated in goth metal. The idea that "goth" means "dark & depressing" is in general not true.

That being said, music is something that is hard to define and classify. I know for a fact that a lot of people consider Within Tempation's music gothic to some degree or another and I don't think it's our job to judge in this matter - difference of opinion on this matter apparently exists. Editing out either of those opinions seems to me a bad idea. (It makes me wonder whether policy would allow that, now that I think of it.)

My intention was not to rekindle the Withing-Temptation-is-(not)-gothic-metal-debate, but to assert that differences of opinion exist and that we are tolerant to both sides. Shinobu 05:42, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Considering that the goth metal page lists Within Temptation as one of their bands suggests that it ought to be listed here. Personally I liked and agreed with the Goth/Symphonic categorization.  They sure seem like a hybrid to me. - MordredKLB 18:15, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Since goth metal is closely related genre, your choice) of symphonic metal, I don't think that this debate should really be occururing. What makes goth metal sound more depressive (I'm talking about bands such as Lacrimas Profundere and Theatre of Tragedy here) are the vocals, not the instruments themselves (which are most of the time tuned only a half-step down). Within Temptation does have gothic metal influences, but their main differential is Sharon den Adel, who sets herself apart from most female singers of the genre by using a different vocal style than other singers from the genre, despite singing in the same vocal range as them. So, to make my opinion clear, I stand by the "symhponic metal with gothic metal influences" descriptions, which respects all POVs. --Sn0wflake 21:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

From Symphonic metal:
 * Symphonic Metal is a subclass of the genre of metal music in general. It is characterised by its usage of a symphony orchestra throughout songs in order to add melody and texture to the heavy drums and distorted guitars of metal. The orchestra is generally kept in the background.

From Goth metal: Although gothic metal - like most metal subgenres - is difficult to classify, some main attributes have remained fairly consistent:
 * lyrics focus on a variety of subjects: religion and God, heaven and hell, romance, (gothic) horror, depression, bereavement, emptiness, and death. Typically, the subjects are set in a pre-20th century environment.
 * vocals are either sung by a male vocalist, female vocalist, or both. The male vocals are either in a deep tenor, or death grunt. Female vocals tend to be high and operatic, but sometimes sung in a regular tone with reverb usage for effects.
 * the guitar(s) and bass are often in minor key, but can also be slow and heavily distorted, as what would be heard in doom metal. Along with percussion (and sometimes synthesizers), the pace and tone is sometimes dependent on the performance of the singer or the nature of the song.
 * There are also (occasional) instances in which gothic metal crosses over into other genres, such as power metal and symphonic metal.

Maybe list it as a cross-over between symphonic m. & gothic m.? That would be consitent with Sn0wflakes "symphonic m. with gothic m. influences" while not explicitly defining where the focus lies, as this is debatable. Apart from that I agree with Sn0wflake's suggestion.

If I had known there to be so much debate on this, I'd have suggested this earlier, but perhaps a para's saying something like "W.T. can be classified sym.m. because ..., but also as got.m. because ...".

I think we should at least provide links to both genres (this is a pro of Sn0wflake's and MordredKLB's suggestions).

Wishing you all the best, Shinobu 22:32, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I went ahead and was bold, but edit away if you disagree. Best regards. --Sn0wflake 00:43, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I'll leave it as it is, after all "I too don't pretend to have the truth on lease". Yours sincerly, Shinobu 03:30, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

On a Google search of "Within Temptation goth/ic metal" - 598,000 results were found, and a search for "Within Temptation symphonic metal" - 137,000 results were found. Although this may not be very accurate, seeing as most of the Internet is nonsense. However their first album 'Enter' should not be disregarded: it most definately IS gothic metal - Sharon's voice is wailing and melancholy, there's a death metal male vocalist, songs are much slower and generally much more depressing. The lyrics are focused on ghost, death, romance, emptiness, hell and darkness in practically every song. Indeed, it may even be considered as Gothic Doom. In Flames 19:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The swedish wikipedia says "WT is playing symphonic metal with goth-influences". What about that? I have only heard the album The Silent Force, and i dont consider it as goth. But, i have also heard some songs from another album, and it sounds much more as goth! But i think it is wrong to classify WT as "goth metal" and "goth rock". Why not add "symhonic metal"?

If the only album you've heard is The Silent Force, you should probably hear their back catalog (Enter and The Dance) to understand why they can be considered both Gothic and Symphonic Metal.Stargazer eternal (talk) 03:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree at all Within Temptation is metal. The band said they are rock, and even if you listen to "The Silent Force" and "The Heart of Everything", you realize it's way too soft to be considered metal - "The Heart of Everything" has even very few touches of symphonic metal music. Labelling is hard I know, but their music from "Enter" and "Mother Earth" to "The Silent Force" and "The Heart of Everything" is way too big. And I've never seen them as "Gothic Metal" at all, not even their first album and EP ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 04:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Popprijs 2005
GRONINGEN De Popprijs 2005 is gewonnen door Within Temptation. "Door deze groep heeft gothic metal in ons land een nieuw ijkpunt gekregen", zei de jury op het Noorderslagfestival in Groningen. Bron: NOS, 14-01-2005

Rough translation: GRONINGEN Within Temptation has won the Popprijs 2005. On the Noorderslagfestival in Groningen, the jury noted: "Because of this band, gothic metal in our country has gained a new reference point." Source: NOS, Jan. 14th, 2005

Shinobu 11:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Right thats good, when they have 'zilch' to go with Gothic Metal apart from steming from the genre. Leyasu 16:21, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

"Mother Earth" singles
The section regarding the Mother Earth album labels "Ice Queen" as the first single, however, the "Singles" section at the bottom lists "Our Farewell" to have come first. Which is correct? Their site lists Our Farewell as having come first, but I really don't know myself. The Son Of Nothing 23:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The singles 'Our Farewell' and 'Ice Queen' were released. — So I believe it was first Our Farewell. I'll correct it. Bryan 18:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Keyboards
There is a little mistake in the article, the intro says that Martijn Spierenburg was at the formation of WT, while the dates given lower in the article states that Ruud's brother Martijn Westerholt was at the formation, and left in 2001, being succeeded by Spiereburg. As Spierenburg is now the keyboardist in WT, and Westerholt did leave WT in 2001, I corrected the article. Bryan 14:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Say my name, Overcome
Overcome and Say my name are bonus tracks on 'Stand my ground' and 'Angels' Bryan 18:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Member
The article states that there is a new band member as per 2006, for doing growls. This is definately not true. I am one of the forum moderators for WT and have regular contact with WT's management. I was informed five minutes ago that the rumour you posted on Wikipedia is definately nonsense and should be removed immediately. WT is currently working on a new album which should be released by the end of this year, but no details on guest appearances by any artist on that album have been made public yet.

You can confirm my presence on the WT-forum by looking up my username there, which is the same as my username here.

El Barkhuysen 16:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Within Temptation & Nightwish
Hi, I'm Rosey and i have bought both albums. AND it is not true that within copies off from nightwish (rumor as usual) so i had to tellllll you!!!!!!! there's such a bloody fucking diffrence between them. HAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHA go shit, have you read my shit page?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Harja (talk • contribs) 17:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Thank you for letting us know. Bryan 14:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ofcourse they aren't. AkiShinji 11:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, of course there is a difference. They are not in the same genre at all!! / visse.

Image
The image of the group and the description is for the old lineup. Ivar de Graaf has been replaced by Stephen von Haestregt as written on the official site: http://www.within-temptation.com/content/tpl_general.asp?pid=700&mid=699

Singles list
The list of singles in the discography section of the article is ever-changing. Can anyone provide a definitive, sourced, addition that can end the editing and reverting? Erath 20:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I copy that. Can someone please give some reference to a real Charttable and remove the table listed here? The one listed is not recent/complete anymore (i.e. why is "Restless" and "Our Farewell" listed though there is no chartentry? Why is there a US column - though there are no chartentries in those? Why is there no entry in the number one hits summary though "What Have You Done" is listed as a number one entry in Australia?). 6 June 2007

new album leaked
seems like the new album have been leaked I downloaded it yesterday.. I hope they hurry up and launch it before its hype goes down, I am definitly getting this!! it's a great album to buy! Can't wait for the tour album/dvd :D I found the silent force tour better than the album, Sharon's live performence is amazing <3 87.109.247.115 19:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Quoting right from the top of the article: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Within Temptation article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." You have also just admitted piracy on an open website which anyone can read. Erath 19:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * D! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.160.174.18 (talk) 12:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Discography changes
I was the one who made those changes in Discography, I just forgot to log in. AkiShinji 11:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources needed
I'm trying to make this into a well sourced article. I need some verifiable sources, especially on the earlier years of Within Temptation and on criticism from the metal scene on Within Temptation. If anybody has some, please post them here. Bryan 19:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The Chronicles of Spellborn
This is a new not yet released MMORPG from Within Temptation. I think it should be in the article.

See tcos.com

 * Ah, it's not by Within Temptation. The band only writes music for that MMORPG. And yes, it is mentioned in the article. Read closely and you will find the reference ;) Teo64x 15:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Mother Earth Tour
I've edited the date of release of Mother Earth Tour DVD, cause before was wrong: you've writed 2003, but it's 2002.. bye..--Donbu 14:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

All I Need
Might someone want to mention the All I Need single?

UK Chart
Why isnt the UK album chart included ? isnt it the third biggest ?? might be something to include? (Neostinker (talk) 00:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC))

Why is there Billboard charts if WT doesn't list in any of those? A little pointless if you ask me~, and where the sources for those charts? ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 04:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Release of Enter & The Dance in US
I can't find anything on the internet about the release of Enter and The Dance in the US. Even their discography does not mention it, nor can I find some press release on it. I'm tempted to think that the ref that is given in the article just imports them from Europe. -- Bryan ( talk|commons ) 21:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I know they have the US versions of both CDs on amazon.com now. I'm sure many other online shops would carry the Season of Mist versions as well.Stargazer eternal (talk) 03:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

*Confused*
Why is their song "Blue Eyes" not mentioned anywhere? It's not on any of the albums, bonus tracks, EPs, or singles lists. I don't know where it's supposed to be or when it was released, sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.170.253.127 (talk • contribs)
 * Wikipedia is a good resource of information, but we don't hold all the answers. If you can find more information about the song, feel free to add it to the article. Cheers! -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you by any chance get that song from a p2p network? There are plenty of songs that get mistagged so it could be that you have a song by different artist that is tagged as being by Within Temptation. Offski (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Blue Eyes was on the extended edition of What Have You Done. -- Bryan ( talk|commons ) 15:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It was also on the compilation album "Destroyed," which for some reason isn't mentioned at all on this page. Besides, it's pretty tricky to mistake Sharon's voice. Gamer 2k4 (talk) 04:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Yay for free images
Good that somebody has taken the time to remove those unfree images. Somebody has pictures lying around at the time WT brought out each album? -- Bryan ( talk|commons ) 19:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Edit summary is pretty clear. These images fit better the articles about the albums or singles than here, or any discography list. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 20:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I put those images there in a November 2005 edit, which predates the stringent rules on non-free content by some eighteen months. I understand the rules as is and a change needed to be made, but to resort to the ultimate layman's excuse, "it seemed like a good idea at the time". Erath (talk) 23:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Genre
We should keep statistics about how much of the total edits to this article is changing genre. My estimation is at least 40%. Do we have a definite source for the genre? -- Bryan ( talk|commons ) 08:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All genres in the infobox has sources but amateur Wikipedians and anonymous users keep on changing it. It says their old materials (Enter, The Dance, Mother Earth) are symphonic metal and goth metal, while the new ones (The Silent Force, The Heart of Everything) are symphonic rock and alternative rock, since they are too "soft" albums for metal. Also WT descrie themselves as "symphonic rock". All we can do is just reverting edits with no consensus and without sources.
 * With sources I meant reliable sources. -- Bryan ( talk|commons ) 13:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, they have reliable sources.--Nazzzz (talk) 14:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, for my opunion, It is best to say just symphonic metal in the infobox, and explain other genres in the text. But, it says that "Their music is also influenced from alternative metal, being notbale on The Heart of Everything album.". Where is the source? I think it should be deleted. Amyway, is this OK with everyone?--Nazzzz (talk) 17:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm in for the symphonic metal suggestion. -- Bryan ( talk|commons ) 18:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * They're not metal anymore.81.84.86.184 (talk) 20:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the following albuns are symphonic rock (the Silent Force,Mother Earth), but the others are obviously symphonic metal or gothic metal.
 * If you disagree with me ,listen to: The Howling, Our Solemn Hour, The Heart of Everything, Final Destination, The Truth Beneath The Rose, or to the entire Enter album...
 * Saying that the Mother Earth album is symphonic metal doesn't make sense.
 * Please...Listen to it by yourself and take your own conclusions...

RickyPinguim (talk) 18:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Rockdetector (one of the more reliable sources for metal genres, and certainly vastly more accurate than allmusic) describes them as gothic metal. Symphonic doesn't fit in my personal opinion, but I don't have a real problem with it, so I won't make any attempt to change that. Alternative metal however, I will remove on sight. Mentioning an element of it in the bulk of the article, provided it's sourced accurately, is fine, but there isn't enough of it within the band's discography as a whole to warrant mentioning it in the info box. Prophaniti (talk) 14:21, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Some are still arguing about this band being given an "alt. metal" tag. Well, I've outlined my arguments about it, and I also went and had a closer look at this supposed source: in truth, the Metal Observer article linked as a source never even mentions "alternative metal". It clearly gives "Silent Force" the symphonic metal tag, and mentions gothic as well. Never alternative. This is clear original research. As such I have removed the reference and the tag, both from this article and the albums. Prophaniti (talk) 18:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The source doesn't say directly "WT is alt-metal" but it compares them with an alt-metal band Evanescence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.236.161.137 (talk) 18:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that's not enough, not on it's own anyway. Comparing a band doesn't mean saying they are the same genre. To say that would constitute original research. Prophaniti (talk) 23:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I've now added 4 sources to make up the genre. All told, we clearly have plenty for gothic metal and symphonic metal, with the odd one for gothic rock too. Given this, would it be worth changing the opening line to "is a heavy metal band" (or just "metal band"). Yes, rock kind of covers it and is more general, but wikipedia goes by sources, not what certain users want or like. The sources are clearly in favour of metal of some sort. Heck, just look at it this way: how can Evanescence, who have not the slightest, barest grain of metal in their music, be termed "metal" in their opening line, and WT not. Prophaniti (talk) 22:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally I'm satisfied with those sources for now. Might need a bit of reassessment if a determined push is being made for FA (I wouldn't say that About.com is the best of sources) but 4 sources for the genres do overrule hearsay, personal opinion and original research so let's leave it for now. Unless of course you want to make that push for GA and then FA just now, in which case I'd be happy to do what I can to help! Caissa's DeathAngel (talk) 22:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I quite agree, the sources aren't perfect, but it's all I could find. Musicmight is just the same as is written in Sharpe-Young's published book "Metal: The Definitive Guide". I don't have that to hand right now, but I'll update that source when I can. Metal Observer and NME are both valid publications, so they should be fine. About.com is certainly a questionable one. I only really included it because it appears alright for reviews at least (having editorial staff, including some specifically for heavy metal music, rather than user-submissions). In addition, as much as I detest allmusic personally, it could also be added to back up gothic metal and gothic rock each. Prophaniti (talk) 23:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, agree with all of that. The other three are fine, and as this isn't an FAC I think we can let the about.com one lie until we find something better. There's certainly far more pressing tasks for the article than that now that we have 3 reliable sources for the genre. Well done! Perhaps we will finally let this lay to rest for a while now that you've sorted the WP:V issue!Caissa's DeathAngel (talk) 23:23, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Symphonic Metal Gothic Rock Symphonic rock Gothic Metal are you ok with it? . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.51.3.109 (talk) 18:23, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Since this reliable source: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&searchlink=WITHIN|TEMPTATION&sql=11:gifuxqu0ldde~T1 says that within temptation's style is goth rock(I agree their not A goth rock band but they have gothic sound in their music), gothic metal and symphonic music I agree with adding this four genres

Philanthropy
Do we really need a separate section on this right now? It's only got the one point, about Frozen. It would seem more sensible to include this in the bulk of the article where suitable, and on the page for "Frozen" itself. To have a separate section seems like it's trying to draw attention to the fact without the need for it given there's only one point to be made. Would anyone object to me moving the info and removing that section? Prophaniti (talk) 19:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Here we go again... (genre)
Okay Ada Kataki, here's your chance: could you please explain to us here why you are removing the allmusic reference terming them gothic rock, considering that it's A) published, B) using professional music journalists, and C) one of the most widely accepted and utilised music genre sources on wikipedia? Prophaniti (talk) 21:50, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

JUST BE LOGICAL!! Within Temptation is not gothic metal or symphonic metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.65.137.102 (talk) 09:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Stop editing things out you don't agree with and they are Symphonic metal. --Epica124 (talk) 20:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the source thing, but they're symphonic metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ireneo.e (talk • contribs) 18:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Genre
ok, there's a lot of fight for the genres but anything that has reliable sources can be published on wikipedia. Since Allmusic.com describes within temptation's style as Goth rock I agree with putting it into the infobox. I agree they're not a goth rock band, but they use Gothic rock elements (But mine or anyone's opinion doesn't count). Allmusic describes them too as a Gothic Metal band, and a symphonic metal band: " Goth metal stars Within Temptation marry the guitar-driven force of hard rock with the sweep and grandeur of symphonic music ". So I agree with putting this genres in the infobox: -> opinions doesn't count, just sources. Is everyone ok with that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ireneo.e (talk • contribs) 18:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Gothic Rock
 * Gothic Metal
 * Symphonic Metal
 * Symphonic Rock

Destroyed - Compilation album
I've been trying to find reliable sources for the compilation album Destroyed. It's kind of weird that it's not available through their personal website, not acknowledged on any store website I've been able to track down, and otherwise has no real concrete information about it. The best I've found is this site with a box and some basic information. Going to leave this here before I create an entry for it. 66.245.66.61 (talk) 04:46, 26 December 2009 (UTC) Seeing the same thing elsewhere. . YouTube has the song, im going to contact the uploader, see if they can provide me with any info. Sephiroth storm (talk) 04:58, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It's on Amazon, unavailable, however, no reviews either, just the cover and track listing. 87.78.17.2 (talk) 17:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Found the back cover. Looks real. What threw me off though is that they reused the Stand My Ground cover... And not listed in Discogs, or anywhere else... Still odd, but I guess the back cover, low res as it may be, seems legit. So far I thought it was a fan compilation 87.78.17.2 (talk) 18:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that should probably be good enough to add to the page. Thank you. Arcadina (talk) 04:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

 * No, I'm fairly certain this is an (elaborate) hoax. I can only find this album on BitTorrent, including the (Photoshopped) covers. Getting it listed on Amazon doesn't really seem impossible to me either (second-hand retailers should be able to add new item to their database, I'd guess). So unless someone can find a reliable source or store where I can purchase this album it should not be added. —Ruud 01:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Stand my Ground - all chart positions are wrong!
In the article there is written that the single "Stand my ground" reached number 1 in Germany, the Netherlands and Austria. But thats wrong, as you can see in the references and in the German/Dutch Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.232.43.186 (talk) 21:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Number of albums sold
There are two listed references for this. The first is a copy edit from wikipedia, and cannot be used, even if from a reliable source. The second is not currently working, If this information cannot be verified, it will have to be removed again. Sephiroth storm (talk) 00:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * now there are three references, all three have been taken from wikipedia. Sephiroth storm (talk) 22:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

They are already immortalized. 109.184.172.84 (talk) 09:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I love WT as much as the next guy, but I will have to remove it unless a source can be found. Sephiroth storm (talk) 15:09, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The true is more dear than love. Sephiroth storm, you are certainly right.
 * But If this information is false I can't understand whence these numbers have appeared. Light077 (talk) 19:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Broken Reference
Reference 12, in the Enter section, is broken. Anyone able to figure out what it's supposed to be and fix it? 128.113.136.143 (talk) 11:16, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Confusion with Wish You Were Here
A lot of people believe that WT actually performed a cover of "Wish you were here song" (originally by Rednex). However, the version of "Wish you were here" usually associated with Within Temptation is actually performed by Blackmore's Night. The lead singers of both bands have somewhat similar voices, which led to the confusion. Within Temptation never performed "Wish you were here". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Getdefault (talk • contribs) 21:07, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

The Q-Music Sessions
Site indicates Q Music is a seperate album only for release in the Netherlands and Belgium. There still is an album in production for the later part of the year. From announcement: "At this moment, Within Temptation is working on their upcoming studio album that is due in the last quarter of 2013." "More information on The Q-Music Sessions, the tour as well as the upcoming album" Feel free to discuss. Sephiroth storm (talk) 11:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Totally Not About Genre
Here's the thing. Does this article really need to start with a paragraph full of genre discussions? They are band that walks the line between metal and pop music, which is always a touchy subject for the more puritanical metal fans among us. But that is not the most important thing about them. Is there no other place to put it? Oh wait, yes there is. There's that rather large section on Musical Style — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.224.220.129 (talk) 19:50, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The summary is far too long in my opinion, it seems to have been extended like an article from some time onwards. It does not need to list every record or event, and also the aforementioned discussion of style is out of the scope of a summary. I hope that there will be a consensus to reduce it to maybe one third of the lines that are there now, by moving the content to the matching paragraphs. --Mopskatze (talk) 16:52, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Awards and nominations
Since there's a specific article page for that subject, I think that the section here should be deleted, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 10mandown (talk • contribs) 21:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

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Symphonic Rock
As the wiki uses it, symphonic rocks refers to an early style of progressive rock. However, I've seen no sources identifying Within Temptation as progressive rock. The way symphonic rock appears to be used here is one invented by the metal community to refer to symphonic metal bands that they do not consider to be be heavy metal, and does not reflect historic use of the term. I think the label symphonic rock should be removed as it leads to confusion now that it redirects to progressive rock.

Ganondox (talk) 04:02, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Probable wrong non-English word in text: abranging
1. Probable wrong-word or mis-spelled word, or non-English word in text.

Near the bottom paragraph of the subsection entitled this:

Hydra and various influences (2013–2016)

In the text that reads there as this::

The first official show happened on 26 February, in Helsinki, Finland, and the arena tour passed primarily in Europe, abranging a few summer festivals. The word in question is "abranging". English dictionaries fail to recognize that is a valid word. I would change it unilaterally to something like "bypassing" or "circumventing", but I'm not sure what the author intended to mean. What does anyone think is meant?

Search Google and dictionaries -- the closest I find are Portuguese or Hindu works -- not English. That said I don't have ready access to an O.E.D. for cross-check. Online OED says "no match". James Rodriguez 12:18, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello, native Portuguese speaker here. This word was added by, who turns out to be a fellow Brazilian (and Portuguese speaker, presumably). I suppose it is an attempted translation of "abrangendo", a verb that could be translated as "include", "embrace" or maybe even "cover". I understand he meant the tour included some performances at summer festivals.  Victão Lopes  Fala! 02:54, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

"Bleed Out (Within Temptation album" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bleed_Out_(Within_Temptation_album&redirect=no Bleed Out (Within Temptation album] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 01:43, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Within Temptation


text:
Talk:Kirk McLean

Comment
Why is there so much written about the one World Championship he played in, compared to the rest of his career? Most of it is pretty trivial, wouldn't you say?213.210.157.14 (talk) 10:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * A long time ago, I wanted to bring this article up to GA, but I quick was sidetracked to other things. The international play section was really the only part I finished. As the article eventually grows, it will mainly be the playing career section that sees it. Until then, there's one section that's pretty decent, and the rest needs quite a bit of work. Nothing wrong with that, personally anyways. – Nurmsook!  talk...  15:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This is Kirk Mcleans wikipedia page as a sports Icon, he was great... why post personal info for all young kids to read on his rumors?? seriously.

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title: Talk:Kirk McLean


text:
Talk:Marty McSorley

Untitled
"Following completion of his suspension, McSorley attempted a comeback but never played in another NHL game." I'd like to see a cite on this. Word I had was that McSorely had been offered contracts, but on two-way basis or otherwise putting him in a limited role. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.28.224.198 (talk) 16:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Assualt incident should be moved up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.58.149.18 (talk) 20:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Curse of Marty McSorley???
Is this noteable? I have never even heard of this supposed curse, and I feel it is nothing more than some silly excuse dreamed up by a fan with too much time on his hands. I do not believe it is worthy of inclusion in this article. Anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freshfighter9 (talk • contribs) 16:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Marty McSorley


text:
Talk:Gerry Meehan

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 15:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gerry Meehan


text:
Talk:Barry Melrose

Hockey School
Barry used to operate/run the Kelvington Hockey School during the summer. I don't know too much information but would like to know more.

Missing section
This article has sections on his "Playing career" and his "Coaching career". But it has no section on his career as commentator, which is where he has really made his name. Gene Nygaard (talk) 14:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, didn't Melrose become a naturalized US citizen within the last 5 years???69.245.6.177 (talk) 02:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

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text:
Talk:Stan Mikita

Untitled
Mikita got beat for the Ross 2x by Hull; what yrs? Trekphiler 07:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Only once, actually, in 1966. In Hull's two other Ross years, he beat out Bronco Horvath in 1960 and Andy Bathgate in 1962.  Mikita beat out Hull in 1964 and 1967, and Phil Esposito beat him out in 1969. Ravenswing 11:37, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Ucle & Aunt Mikita clarification
We need clarication here. Is Mr.Mikita, Stan's maternal uncle? or is Mrs.Mikita, Stan's maternal or paternal aunt? GoodDay 20:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

"generally regarded as the best center of the 1960s"
I won't debate that at all. As a kid, Mikita was certainly one of my favorites and remains one of my all-time favorites to this day. But that particular phrasing completely ignores WP:AWW, WP:NPOV and WP:CITE. It's a pretty harmless sentence, other than being weasel worded. surely a reputable web/book bio must have a fairly similar description of the man and can be used as a ref. Just my thoughts anyways. Peter Fleet 23:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I would venture to guess that being named the First Team All-Star center six seasons and the Second Team center three seasons in the 1960s, along with four scoring titles, two MVPs, two Byngs, the only possible answer is "who in the hell else?" It would violate NPOV to assert anything else.  (Come to that, the Britannica makes the same assertion.)    Ravenswing  02:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the sentence is misleading: centre Jean Béliveau led the Montreal Canadiens to five Stanley Cups that decade, four of them as captain. A hockey player's calibre isn't just measured in goals and assists: like Mikita, Béliveau got many of both but tellingly he was also the most successful team leader in NHL history! Birdman euston (talk) 03:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * You mean that you disagree that Mikita was the best center of the 1960s. Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion.  But the statement involves whether Mikita was generally regarded as the best center of the 1960s, and it's obvious that he was: by the press, by the league itself by way of awards and trophies.  I'm quite happy with any assertion that what Beliveau enjoyed was a far stronger set of teammates than Mikita did (no one's likely to have traded Hull, Hall, Pilote and Wharram for Harvey, Richard, Plante, Laperriere, Cournoyer, Rousseau, Tremblay ...)   Ravenswing   10:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Nickname
"Le Petit Diable" Saving nickname for future use. -Djsasso (talk) 22:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Early Life Trivia......
The main article under this heading states: "......moved to Ontario, Canada, as a young boy to avoid the political troubles in the area due to Communist control........".

This may be true, however in his book "I play to win" he gives a humerous ironic anecdote describing the precipitating circumstances. He says there was intense discussion amongst his family about whether to send him to Canada or not. It was at night, he recalls, and he (nine years old) came into the kitchen asking for a bedtime snack. He was abruptly refused and sent back to bed. Determined to get his bread and jam he whined and complained to the point of tears. His mother, reluctant to let her boy go, relented, thinking that his frustration was his wanting to go to Canada and not for the bread or the jam!

Ironically when he returned to Czechoslovakia there was a ceremony at his arrival involving the tradition of eating bread and salt by the returning Native Son.

Ref:I play to win / by Stan Mikita. -- by Mikita, Stan. Don Mills, Ont. : Longmans Canada, c1969. [I have to say, as an aside, that he must be the most underrated superstar in Hockey. His achievements are phenomenal, his intelligence rivalling Gretzky and Orr. His contributions to promoting the use of the helmet and his contribution to the development of the curved stick is too often overlooked. I was glad to see both him and Bobby Hull recognized at the "Winter Classic" at Wrigley Field.]

Pete318 (talk) 18:01, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Small Change
Hi, I just changed the Nationality to Slovak, since he was born there BUT Id like to know if you can put multiple Nationalities since he lives and grew up in Canada... Nationality is tricky since it means basically what nation of people he belongs to, so he is Slovak, but a Canadian citizen... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.224.61 (talk) 03:54, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Good point, but ethnicity, nationality and citizenship are not always synomomous - epecially in Europe. He was born of Slovakian Descent in occupied Czechoslovakia. The Czechoslovakian Government operated in exile, but the Reich divided the area into protectorates - Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia. Who issued his birth certificate, who issued his passport when he went to Canada? We as children in Canada thought of him as a "Czech" and how ironic a "Czech" could win the Lady Byng so often he must have been a very good "Check". We used to have hockey pucks made in Czechoslovakia - no wonder.... he played like he owned all the pucks.....kids!

Pete318 (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Country of birth
The infobox says Czechoslovakia while the Early life section says Slovakia. We should be consistent. I suggest using Slovakia, since the Slovak Republic (1939–1945) existed at the time of his birth.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

 * Sokolče wasn't part of Slovak Republic (1939–1945). It was part of Hungary during 1938-45. So Slovakia is completely wrong. It should be Czechoslovakia (or Hungary). Please change it back. 84.231.0.152 (talk) 21:21, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Team name clarification
Mikita played for the Blackhawks not the Black Hawks. One is a tribe of American Indian, the other is an animal.
 * Mikita played for the BLACK HAWKS, which was what the team was named before the 1986 season. I suggest you familiarize yourself with hockey history before making edits to historical articles.   Ravenswing  08:18, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Stan Mikita


text:
Talk:Percival Molson

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title: Talk:Percival Molson


text: Talk:Garry Monahan

title: Talk:Garry Monahan


text:
Talk:Dickie Moore (ice hockey)

Dickie Moore
What about the construction company, isn't that his? 76.66.201.20 (talk) 10:56, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Pitiful
This article doubles in length, and triples in reference and details, only after he passed away. CubBC (talk) 18:53, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dickie Moore (ice hockey)


text:
Talk:Steve Moore (ice hockey)

Contradiction
"Steve Moore (born September 22, 1978) is a current Canadian professional ice hockey centre, perhaps best known for his role in a series of controversial incidents with the Vancouver Canucks that ultimately led to the end of his playing career."

Is he a current player or did his career end? Considering he hasn't played since 2004 and there does not seem to be any indication that he will resume playing, I would say the latter.Djob (talk) 14:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Updates
There is a lot of new info relating to the legal case(s) over the last few years, including the statements of Crawford this week. This could use a new pass with updated info. 12 August, 2008

Bias
OK...so much bias here. Can someone plz fix this seeing as how I'm a Vancouverite and my opinions will go into the article.Canuckman 07:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

This is a difficult article to edit. I've watched the game and Moore slashed at Bertuzzi several times but refused to fight. This article lacks sources/references that are neutral. -- Discordanian 02:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

"Though unclear, it is likely Bertuzzi then grappled Moore to begin fighting, and not realizing Moore was unconcious, toppled over him at which point Moore's head made contact with the ice, likely causing the extent of his injuries. Alternatively, it is speculated that Bertuzzi purposely drove Moore's head into the ice, although there is no evidence for this as we cannot read Bertuzzi's mind. Avalanche players then dogpiled the two, no doubt causing further injury."

let's get this straight, Bertuzzi likely didn't realize that Moore was unconcious [sic], but we can't read Bertuzzi's mind...which is it? and is there really no doubt that the dogpile caused further injuries. Whoever wrote that quoted bit did an awful job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.243.79 (talk) 20:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Bias/Factual Inaccuracy.
"The incident likely came about as a result of a February 16 game between the two teams in Denver, in which Moore inflicted a clean hit on Vancouver Canucks captain Markus Näslund, causing him to miss the next three games with a concussion."

Steve Moore's hit was not clean; it was roundly criticized by sports outlets both Canadian and American.

Reading this article you'd almost think that Todd bertuzzi was the victim.

Jesus Christ, did Bertuzzi's lawyer write this? No sources. Nothing. Reads like a Vancouver fanboy's wet dream.

Completely biased to Steve Moores side. I personally dislike Bertuzzi after that hit, but this article sounds like a lawyers closing arguments in court, not an encyclopedia entry.

Wikipedia is not about attack people's character. this article villianizes Bertuzzi in a completely false manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.122.127 (talk) 18:02, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Naslund hit
I wonder if it should be mentioned that although Naslund missed only three games, he played injured for most of the next two months due to a broken elbow. -- Steven Fisher 17:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I found some sources and so added it myself. -- Steven Fisher 17:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

POV tag
Adding tag for reasons stated above. Also, he started playing hockey in 1998 and the first mention of his career is related to an incident with another player several years later. Needs rounding out with more background on him and less negative bias. Antonrojo 19:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * As of the draft with this timestamp, this problem has been fixed. Antonrojo 19:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Teacher?
On October 4, 2006, an anon added that Steve is now a high school teacher. Where is the source for this? Google doesn't give any results for "Steve Moore" + "Woodland High School", aside from this article and some mirrors. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 00:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Factual Error
"In July, 2012, former Avalanche enforcer Scott Parker, who had been a teammate of Moore's at the time of the Bertuzzi incident in 2004" Scott Parker was a member of the San Jose Sharks in 2004. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Studmuffin411 (talk • contribs) 14:00, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * DoneFreshfighter9talk 18:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Steve Moore (ice hockey)


text:
Talk:Howie Morenz

F&f's comments
Here are my detailed comments on the lead and section 1. Please be aware that they have been written in a hurry.

 * Lead:

 * He played centre for the Montreal Canadiens (in two stints), the Chicago Black Hawks, and the New York Rangers of the National Hockey League (NHL).
 * Slightly awkward. Might be better to say, "He played centre for three National Hockey League (NHL) teams: the Montreal Canadiens (in two stints), the Chicago Black Hawks, and the New York Rangers."
 * Changed
 * Once in the NHL, he became one of the ...
 * Don't really need "Once."
 * Removed

 * During his NHL career he placed in the top 10 leading scorers 10 times
 * I don't know what the MoS guidelines are for this, but I'd be inclined to change the second "10" to "ten."
 * Changed

 * Three times in his career he was named the most valuable player of the league, and he led the league in goals scored once and points scored twice.
 * Would it be clearer to say, "Three times in his career he was named the most valuable player of the league, and he led the league once in goals scored and twice in points scored."
 * Changed

 * After his death, the Canadiens removed his jersey number from circulation, the first time the team had done so.
 * How about, "After his death, the Canadiens retired his jersey number, the first time the team had done so for any player."
 * Changed

 * Personal life:

 * Born in Mitchell, Ontario, to William Morenz, Howie Morenz had three sisters and a brother
 * Where's the mother?
 * I looked around for her name, but couldn't find it in any of the material I used. The specific reference for that sentence only says William's name, and gives no mention of his mother.

 * After starting the 1916–17 season as a goaltender,...
 * What league's season? The Junior ???
 * Added

 * The Morenz family moved to Stratford, a nearby community, in May 1917.
 * This seems redundant information that doesn't seem to be used later. If it needs to be mention, it might be better as the first part of a sentence, "After the Morenz family moved ..., Morenz tried enlisting ..."
 * One of his nicknames, the "Stratford Streak," referenced where he was from; I've moved around the sentence to keep that included, as it was a rather important aspect of his life.

 * Morenz got an apprenticeship with the Canadian National Railways (CNR) factory in Stratford.
 * Morenz became aprenticed to/with the ...
 * Changed

 * In 1926 he married Mary Stewart; they had three children together, two sons and a daughter. Howie, Jr. was born in 1927, Donald in 1933 and Marlene in 1934.
 * Staccatto style. Better to combine: In 1926 he married Mary Stewart; together, they had three children, Howie, Jr. in 1927, Donald in 1933, and Marlene in 1934.  (It is understood that it is two sons and a daughter.)
 * Changed

 * Marlene married Bernie Geoffrion, who played for both the Canadiens and Rangers from 1950 to 1968, in 1952.
 * Awkward. We don't need to know when Marlene was married.  So, "Marlene later married Bernie Geoffrion, who played for both the Canadiens and Rangers from 1950 to 1968."
 * Changed

 * Their son, Howie's grandson, Dan, briefly played for the Canadiens in the 1970s
 * Since you are referring to HM as Morenz, better to stay with that, "Their son, Morenz's grandson, ..."
 * Changed

Regards, Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  20:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. They've all been addressed. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:39, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

 * One more correction:

 * In Montreal, Morenz began explaining his reasons for not signing to Dandurand but began crying.
 * Should the "but" be "and?"  Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  22:18, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * What happened was he was talking, and then broke down and couldn't finish what he was saying. I added that into the article, so this is all cleared up. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:41, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

1921 Memorial Cup
Hi, in the "Early career" part, the article says "While Morenz scored a hat trick (three goals) in each of the two games in the series, the Midgets lost the total-goals series 11–9." This can not be correct. The Midgets lost the first game with 2 goals to 9, so Morenz can not have scored a hat trick in both games. He did score a hat trick in the second game tho, but not in the first. --[ Go Avs ][ Disc. ] 17:23, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting point. I'll check out the book that I got the source from in the next few days, when I can get hold of it, so I'll remove that part. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:59, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. By the way, I figure you're the main author of this article, so I want to say congratulations, good job! I was working on my 1921 Memorial Cup article at the german language Wikipedia when I detected that error.
 * Background: Just a few weeks ago I did a translation of this Morenz article for the german language wikipedia. Howie Morenz will candidate for "good article" at "our" wikipedia soon, please wish me luck. Anyway, as I was editing the Memorial Cup article, I figured something can not be correct, as I was sure that Morenz scored two hat tricks in this series. At least that's what I "copied" from the english language wikipedia. So I did a quick Google research and figured that Morenz can in no way have scored two hat tricks that year. So I quickly edited the text in "my" Morenz article and thought it'd be a good idea to inform the authors over here about the mistake.
 * By the way: I uploaded a few more pictures featuring Morenz, you can see them at "my" german article. Feel free to add them to your article aswell. For example, the funeral in the Montréal Forum picture might be a good addition to this article. The pic when the habs played against the Rangers is very nice aswell. Just a hint. :) Greetings, (and sorry for any misspelling) --[ Go Avs ][ Disc. ] 23:07, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Cause of death
I do wonder if a pulmonary embolism (PE) could have been the cause of death. Does anyone know if an autopsy was performed? Bone fractures and being immobile are risk factors for deep vein thrombosis (a bloot clot in the large veins, in this theoretical case, of the leg). If the clot formed in the leg and broke off, it could have traveled to the lungs (become a PE), which can cause chest pain and death. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 19:56, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

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Mispelling
If my special search is correct, this article misspelled "forever" as "forver". Atomic Sphere (talk) 18:56, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Good catch, that's been fixed. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:14, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh my goodness... I've been recognized!! Thank you so much!!! Atomic Sphere (talk) 19:25, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Howie Morenz


text:
Talk:Brendan Morrison

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title: Talk:Brendan Morrison


text: Talk:Joe Murphy

title: Talk:Joe Murphy


text:
Talk:Larry Murphy (ice hockey)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 15:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Larry Murphy (ice hockey)


text:
User talk:Gulielmus Cumrotae

Please do not vandalize Wikipedia articles. Georgia guy 21:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Huh?

I saw in RC that you vandalized Key by changing a link from Keying (car) to "Keying (vandalism)". Georgia guy 21:47, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Keying is a form of vandalism using a key. It isn't limited to just cars (e.g. I could key a boat). Gulielmus Cumrotae 21:48, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Key
I would not revert or change the article again, though i do agree with you edit, you have put your self in violation of the 3rr, my suggestion is since he has not give your an answerer to his reversion other then Vandalism that you start an Request for Comment to force him to give a reason. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 22:16, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Three revert rule
You have been blocked for 24 hours under the three revert rule. If you wish to appeal please contact another administrator or the mailing list.Geni 22:53, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

July 3, 2006
Wikipedia has clear procedures on moving pages. Other than in exceptional circumstances all pages should be moved by following the instructions on the Requested Moves page. Unilateral moves can trigger edit wars, break links and cause a lot of problems. Please stop unilaterally moving pages, as you did with Empire of Atlantium, and follow the correct procedure. Georgewilliamherbert 08:28, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Wik
Bye Wik. --Gene_poole 05:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Gulielmus Cumrotae


text:
Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Royal Tit-Watching (Ornithological) Society of Britain

Quite right - this is an insult to ornithologists. RachelBrown 21:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Just FYI: VfD discussions are usually "talky" enough that we don't make much use of the talk pages. If you'd like to participate, feel free to add your vote and reasoning to the main article at the bottom. I'd suggest reading (or at least skimming) WP:GVFD to get an idea of the process. android↔talk 22:18, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Petr Nedvěd

Article name
Since this person is a Canadian citizen now, shouldn't he be listed under the Canadian name of "Petr Nedved" instead of his original Czech name of "Petr Nedvěd"? Olessi 17:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, this article should be located at Petr Nedved, not Petr Nedvěd. It was originally written as Petr Nedved and remained there for a long time until a few weeks ago when User:-Lemmy- moved it without consensus. It needs to be moved back to Petr Nedved. Masterhatch 18:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Enough of these move discussions, please. This man's name is "Petr Nedvěd", not "Petr Nedved". Ryūlóng 21:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Ryūlóng, normally I am a proponent of including diacritics in names. For this particular case, I am wondering if the diacritic-less version is proper, as he is a naturalized Canadian citizen. Olessi 23:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ryulong, his name spelt in english is Petr Nedved. sorry that you don't see that. try looking in hockey reference books and magazines and maybe some light will come to you. My pov is based on "most common english spelling" and your pov is based on... well.... your own personal pov. Masterhatch 00:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:NPOV and there is no reason why this article should be moved at all until there is a consensus as to what should be done in situations like this. Ryūlóng 00:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It should not have been moved to include diacritics in the first place until a consensus is reached. It works both ways you know. It should be moved back to the way it was 4 weeks ago. Along with all the other articles that you moved that started out without diacritics. It's fine and dandy that you wish articles to stay where they started, but you have to play fair. And that means moving a lot of articles back to non-diacritic form. Masterhatch 05:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Untitled
Didn't petr retire--Mrebus 03:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Use of diacritics in article's title

 * This is the English Wikipedia, and according to the policy of WP:COMMONNAME, this article does not use the subject's name as it might be spelled in Czech (with diacritics) as its article title; it instead uses the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. Dolovis (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * For sportspeople at least, the overwhelming standard is to use diacritic marks in the title of the main article but to drop them in links. See Category:Czech ice hockey players, Category:Czech footballers, Category:Slovak ice hockey players, Category:Swedish ice hockey players for tons of examples. I think it makes sense and I don't think it's in contradiction with COMMONNAME. For a reader unfamiliar with diacritics, the spelling is essentially unchanged. It doesn't prevent readers from finding the article and it's more respectful of a player's origins. Pichpich (talk) 14:07, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Your personal opinion does not equate to a standard. The wiki-standard is the policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Any articles that may be exceptions to that standard should first be discussed so a consensus on that individual's article name can be reached. But in any event, the issue is moot because Nedved is not a Czech; he is a naturalized Canadian who won a Gold medal for Canada in the 1994 winter Olympics. Dolovis (talk) 14:36, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Obviously it's not my personal opinion and if you take the time to browse the categories above, you'll see that this is the current way of doing things. If you want to change that, don't discuss it here: discuss it at some centralized location and propose this massive change. The "he's Canadian" argument is ridiculous. Many Canadians have diacritic marks on their name and would like to keep them thank you very much. Do you have a photocopy of Nedved's passport? Because I'm pretty sure that diacritic marks are allowed there. Pichpich (talk) 15:58, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Pichpich you are arguing against a brick wall. He has been shown by the ice hockey project that there has been a centralized discussion that player pages for ice hockey players keep them. Yet he keeps making WP:POINT edits to try and sneak the changes through. The use or non-use of diacritics doesn't change the fact its the common name. If it has them its still the same name as if it doesn't have them, however one way is correct and the other is not. Its because of this that the hockey project came up with its guideline to use them on all player pages where the players actual name contains them. -DJSasso (talk) 00:54, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I would also add that according to the policy of WP:Naming conventions, it is not the person's "legal name" which decides the article's title. We are to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. Dolovis (talk) 21:03, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, this bio article title should be devoid of diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 21:35, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The spelling without diacritics is not a different name, it's a different spelling of the same name. The choice of spelling to use is governed by our manual of style and our internal conventions. We have a de facto standard, which is to use diacritics – just like Britannica and Encarta do. Hans Adler 15:06, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Petr Nedvěd


text:
Talk:Jeff Nelson (ice hockey)

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title: Talk:Jeff Nelson (ice hockey)


text:
Talk:Scott Niedermayer

Devils captain succession box
Because 'Scott Stevens' captaincy is viewed as having ended in September 2005 with his retirement (not Jan 2004, since he last played in the NHL), Elias is not listed as Niedermayer's immediate successor. GoodDay 19:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Notable Collection of Achievements
It probably bears mentioning that, as of 2005, Scott Niedermayer is "the only player in the game who has won a Stanley Cup (three of them), an Olympic gold medal, a World Cup, World Championship, World Junior Championship and Memorial Cup titles." (From http://www.nhl.com/columns/wigge/niedermayer042706.html) Mojo Tooth 23:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * In addition, he recently was awarded the Conn Smythe trophy. Mojo Tooth 21:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I added that to the lead paragraph, as I think it is appropriate there to get the major info in place. Leafschik1967 (talk) 23:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Scott Niedermayer


text:
Talk:Ted Nolan

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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Ted Nolan and Dominik Hasek's Wife
Is it true that one of the reasons why Nolan was driven out of town in 1997 after having won the Adams trophy was because he had an affair with Dominik Hasek's wife? Is this what led to a poisonous atmosphere which entailed either Nolan or Hasek leaving? I do have some sources for this but they are ofbrow" variety. Did the new GM give him an offer he would almost certainly reject?  Thoughts?  Hanes3777 23:35, March 18, 2006 (UTC)

I've heard that rumor from a guy that is a season ticket holder, but that doesn't make it so (1/16/2014) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.95.126.178 (talk) 15:50, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

 * I've only ever seen him referred to as having been "blacklisted" or "blackballed" and heard things such as "there are rumors [about him]..." (sometimes "many rumors"). Never heard any details at all. heqs 13:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Globe and Mail article from yesterday... heqs 21:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Think it had more to do with Hasek just being the spoiled star of the Sabres at the time and having an "opinion" of Nolan. Muckler and Regier when pressed probably had to make a decision to keep Hasek or Nolan but not both.. It's common knowledge that Hasek told Regier ... "It's him or me" -204.50.162.34 17:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

 * No he did not have an affair with hasek's wife. Your last thoughts are correct, Hasek was just being the spoiled star of the Sabres, but it was a little deeper than that as well. Nolan is more of a dictator when it comes to his teams, he has to have a considerable amount of control. Nolan and Muckler did not see eye to eye due to that, and that's what ultimately tipped the iceberg. Its good that hes back in the NHL now, he certainly deserves it. One of the biggest reasons why it has taken Nolan this long is because he messed with one of the 'pretty boys' of hockey in John Muckler, ever since then organizations have been reluctant to hire him, and another reason which I personally beleive and think of as unfortunate that in this day and age we are still battling things like this, is the fact that he is a native indian and on a smaller scale, race had something to do with this as well. How often do you see a coach win the Jack Adams, take a team to the conference semi finals losing in a game 7 and get fired, then not get hired by any team in any capacity for 8 years. It doesn't happen. Hopefully with his hiring barriers like this can be destroyed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.56.133.146 (talk • contribs)

Nolan, Charles Wang, Neil Smith, and Larry Brooks
I hadn't noticed the many changes that the sentence in question underwent since I first put a citation tag on it. Considering that I'm not really happy with my most recent edit (and I'm not even especially happy with my prose in this case), it might be productive to actually open it up to discussion. I think it is notable that Wang hired both Nolan and Smith at the same time, so that should be mentioned in the article. There also should be some acknowledgement that it's generally not standard practice for the owner to hire the coaching staff, but it's also not usually the case that both the coach and GM positions are vacant at the same time. I don't know how many times that has happened, and I don't know how common it was for both positions to be filled at the same time by the owner or how often another arrangement was worked out. I think that criticism such as Brooks's is notable and should be covered, but it's difficult to really how to approach it. The first attempts, where the criticism was presented as authoritative and without rebuttal is obviously wrong, as there are clearly two sides to this disagreement. So, in short, I don't really know what to do. Ideas? Croctotheface 15:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC

New Hasek-related material
While I appreciate the work that went in to these recent edits, I don't think that it's really appropriate to have this story be so central to the article. The article is and should be about Nolan, not a history of the off-ice issues the Sabres dealt with in 1997. Croctotheface 02:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The link to the Globe and Mail article from 2006 was dead. I deleted the "Further Reading" section as this was the only item within. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.223.52 (talk) 15:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ted Nolan


text:
Talk:Willie O'Ree

Western Hockey expansion and O'Ree
For what it is worth, I could agree with the earlier version that O'Ree was pioneer of hockey for the Western U.S. Perhaps there were teams already, but he was a draw for new audiences.
 * Do you actually know that or are you guessing that he did? O'Ree was a solid player for many years, but only once was he even second on his own team in scoring, and the degree to which he would have been a Gretzkyesque draw just because he was black is questionable at the best.  It would be like asserting that Tony McKegney -- more of an impact player for his teams than O'Ree, as to that -- was a particular arena draw.  Does anyone have any attendance figures or contemporary cites to offer?  Ravenswing 19:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually considering I wasn't alive at the time, I am just going anecdotal tales from people who saw him at the L.A. Sports Arena. According to folks, he was a draw with the Blades not because of his scoring, or the color of his skin, but the style of his play. He was known for something which isn't utilized much in the current era of the game, which was the ability to be at full speed within a shorter amount of strides compared to the competition. ALso I don't think the author was comparing O'Ree to Gretzky skillwise/numberswise, just as a draw for the sport that was afoundation for things to come.

OK, he played wing. Which wing? Trekphiler 21:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Both, actually. Ravenswing 01:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

he's cool

List of African American firsts
The article notes that he is often erroneously referred to as the first African-American NHL player (he was actually African-Canadian) but then the "see also" includes a link to a list of African American firsts. Contradictory? --Jfruh (talk) 23:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Real good point. Since the Afr-Am / Afr-Canadian confusion is addressed in the lead, the "See also" only adds to it. Nice catch. --Tenebrae 07:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Biography assessment rating comment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article.-- Jreferee 22:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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Photos
Shouldn't there be a photo for him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.83.96.37 (talk) 17:30, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

 * I just added one of my personal photos of him. — MJC detroit  (tell me) 12:31, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Date of NHL debut
Currently, there's only one source cited for the date of his NHL debut, a Boston Globe article. The article does explicitly mention the year (1958), but as for the month and day, it says only that January 18, 2018 is Willie O'Ree Day in Boston. It does not say that day is the anniversary of his debut. --184.248.102.7 (talk) 01:15, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Good catch. Multiple other references within the article do mention the date, including the very next citation. I have moved the citation up to more clearly point to the date. Echoedmyron (talk) 14:32, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

More info
There should be an early life, personal life, early playing career, etc in this article. Because right now it’s not there and it just doesn’t flow well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.0.62.238 (talk) 20:54, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Willie O'Ree