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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities

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Scope of the Project, Notability Rules (clarification), and Syntax for the Watchlist are linked here: Watchlist Talk Page. A discussion on the types of chapter status is here: F&S Project talk page, Archive #7.

Redlinked universities and colleges
I have updated the master list of institutions that are red-linked in chapter lists for fraternities, sororities, honor societies, and other groups covered by our WP. This list is alphabetical by school name and includes all known associated groups in that single entry. There are also some sources to aid in creating articles for these redlinks, as identified by various editors. Items can be removed from the list, once an article is created. Rublamb (talk) 00:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Cleanup project
The main list of infobox issues can be found at Category:Fraternity articles with infobox fraternity issues.

I have these here from other discussions so they are easier to find:
 * "| coat of arms or "| crest" where "| image_size" is null or missing. (The size parameter is manually adjusted, depending on actual image size.) - --Done. Note that I downsized somewhat the crests and other infobox graphics, too many of which had crept so large that they were inadvertently expanding the infobox width.  Of course, if someone wants to see a larger image of the crest, they can click on it, or go to the original source. Flag images are now typically 120px, and member badges appear about the size of an actual badge, or maybe up to 20% larger. Jax MN (talk) 22:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * "| founded" where the tag structure " " is NOT used - tracked at petscan DONE
 * 1) missing affiliation -
 * 2) missing type -
 * 3) missing scope -
 * 4) missing member badge -
 * 5) missing chapters -
 * 6) missing members -
 * 7) missing website -
 * 8) Missing short descriptions. - tracked at petscan DONE
 * 9) Orphans - via WP Orphanage search and petscan  DONE
 * 10) missing status -
 * 11) Article name does not match infobox - DONE
 * 12) Missing infobox - DONE, if had WP F&S Rublamb (talk) 00:42, 29 June 2024 (UTC)}
 * 13) Missing country
 * 14) Unreferenced - working list pulled and shared in a new section below  29 June 2024
 * 15) Notability - working list pulled and shared in a new section below 29 June 2024
 * 16) Primary sources - tracked at petscan
 * 17) One source - working list pulled and shared in a new section below 29 June 2024
 * 18) Has bibliography but lacks inline citations - tracked at petscan
 * 19) Needs color boxes (Helpful link, has colors, flags and, addresses of Baltic, Scandinavian, German, and Polish fraternities)
 * Kappa Zeta Phi - done
 * Corps Austria - done
 * Konwent Polonia - done
 * K.A.V. Lovania Leuven - done
 * Omicron Epsilon Pi - done Jax MN (talk) 18:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Black Axe (confraternity) - done
 * Alpha Beta Psi

Rublamb (talk) 01:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Fraternities and Soroities Guideline
Is it possible to make a comprehensive guideline article for how a standard fraternity or sorority page should look? I've found College_and_university_article_advice to be incredibly helpful. Of course each page would have a level of uniqueness to it, but just as any university there are some standard characteristics that should be recommended.

Please let me know if I am missing something on the project page, but I currently do not find the templates section to be sufficient. Pancake621 (talk) 18:53, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

 * Hi . I note you recently joined the Project. We welcome you. Reading your question above I was intrigued to note the support document for college and university articles, originally written back in 2007.  I'm sure it has been heavily used.  It was thus a factor in the decade when most of those articles were created. We could certainly use it for our efforts to finish writing articles about dormant schools.  Meanwhile, as to your query about a similar style and syntax guide for fraternity and sorority articles, while we may have benefited from such, years ago, alas, I don't know that anyone ever created a similar guide.  However, much of the direction you seek is here in the archived TALK pages of this Project page, with a few key items pinned to the top.  We track substandard chapter list pages, missing school pages, and discuss the details of stylistic points here.  Several of the most active project editors operate with a strong consensus gained from these earlier discussions, but that doesn't really help you if you don't have a ready-reference.

 * Because this is 2024, and many of the GLO articles are much advanced from their origin as stubs, and the many list pages we track are quite improved from fifteen years ago, I'm less inclined to write this document. However, many points from our archived discussions could be summarized or hyperlinked to quickly form the framework of a new guidance article.  Are you interested in working on it?

 * Yours was a fair question, and I realize that, had we had such a document a decade ago when I was beginning to work on these articles, perhaps we could have corralled other new editors to the Project, and maybe avoided various AfD battles. A guideline like this would have been a solid framework for consensus. Still, we're far more organized and these articles have been much improved over the past decade.  Jax MN (talk) 19:07, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the welcome!
 * I'd be happy to help refine a draft! I feel as tho I am far too new to this WikiProject and wiki-editing in general to create a helpful guideline. (for example, I am a bit unsure of how'd to create that page on the backend for everyone to access).
 * I also agree that many articles seem to be beyond an original draft, but I've still used them to improve start- or c-class articles for the university wikiproject. I also think it would be good to have a reference for people looking to improve their own organization's page to have some easy to reference guide. Pancake621 (talk) 00:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that is a good idea. Although some groups have variations specific to them, there is a format we tend to use. In addition, there a plenty of discussions to pull from where we decided what content to include in a given section or format for content. It is something I keep meaning to draft. Rublamb (talk) 19:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy to help refine a draft! Pancake621 (talk) 00:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I will get to it eventually. Currently working on a bear of a project. Rublamb (talk) 13:23, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Puerto Rico

 * I think CIPR (Concilio Interfraternitario de Puerto Rico) even without a page is good as an affiliation and should be before CIPFI.
 * the facebook page for Concilio Interfraternitario de Puerto Rico actually lists the Wikipedia template (Template:Concilio Interfraternitario de Puerto Rico as their website. I don't know if this is AI guessing or not.Naraht (talk) 17:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There are articles from El Mundo (Puerto Rico) indicating it was founded in August 29, 1958 and a few other from its initial founding. I created the CIPFI article way back then since it was the one I could find information for. El Johnson (talk) 13:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Anything you can find would be useful. I'd really like to have enough to create the CIPR page (or have someone else create it, I'm not picky. :) )Naraht (talk) 13:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Grove City College redirects.
The local fraternities and sororities at Grove City College all have redirects to the college. Given that they aren't even specifically mentioned in the article anymore, I think they should be nuked. Naraht (talk) 23:25, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd rather that the body text for the school article be adjusted to list them. Without WLs, probably.  I thought that there were one or two that had actual articles.  Did you check each of them?  Jax MN (talk) 23:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I checked. Grove City fraternities with articles include: Adelphikos and Pan Sophic, along with numerous redirects. Jax MN (talk) 00:05, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree. Rublamb (talk) 02:20, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Just remembered: As I mentioned above in Chapters of Greek Societies by Campus, there also redirects in our Watchlist section "Chapters of Greek Societies by Campus" that go to removed content from the university article. The problem in all of these cases is that the unviversity article was trimmed without addressing the related redirects. Does anyone in our WP have authority to delete redirects? I have not had luck with this before because I was not the one who created the redirect. Rublamb (talk) 21:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

GLOs by "level"
I don't have a good feeling here for this, but I'd like to start a discussion on the types that I see. As far as I can tell, we have
 * 1) High School groups (both High school honoraries and the groups like BBYO and Scouts Royale Brotherhood).
 * 2) Two year college groups (Like Delta Psi Omega, which right now is combined with Alpha Psi Omega, its 4 year equivalent).
 * 3) Four year college groups (including those that have community chapters and/or alumni chapters)
 * 4) Four year college groups allowing two year college chapters (started and focused on four year colleges but allow two year college, some professional, some honorary)
 * 5) Requires a Bachelors to be even be at the school that has the chapter (Med School Fraternities, Legal Fraternities)
 * 6) Entirely community based.

I'm not honestly sure if these should be part of type, or called something else. Not sure that four year GLOs should really be distinguished if they allow chapters at 2 year schools (Alpha Phi Omega has about 30 charters at 2 year schools as opposed to over 700 at four year schools as well as some of the older fraternities and sororities which had two year schools early in their history that they'll never go back to.Naraht (talk) 13:56, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

 * For your suggestion of there being two "Four year college" types, one of which supports some Two-year school activity, I don't think those need to be split out. I'd also note that some honor societies are entirely post-grad, while others support tapping early in the undergrad years, or while in grad school. There is also a distinction to be made between variants of the community-based (i.e.: non collegiate) organizations, but this can be clarified in the "emphasis" field.

 * Is this discussion for the purpose of creating new categories? Or for the infoboxes, or for a new column in our standard chapter table? Jax MN (talk) 16:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * if I have to pick one, I'd say infobox parameter. The primary question that led to this in my head is "How should the infobox for a High School Mathematics Honorary be shown differently in the infobox from a College Mathematics Honorary?". However, I could easily see this being a question for categories as well.Naraht (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't believe I am consistent, but that is where Emphasis is useful. For example, it can say High School Mathematics or Junior College Mathematics, depending on the org. I also use this for honor societies that go by class year, meaing Freshmen, Juniors, Seniors, etc.
 * We also need to address gender. Since the infobox does not specify fraternity or sorority, you cannot tell which the group is at a quick glance. My general thought it to use "Social fraternity" or "Social sorority", instead of "Social" but that would be big update. Also, the infobox does not have a place to indicate that a professional organization or honor society is geneder specific, rather than coed. I vary in putting this detail in Type or Emphasis, so it would be good to set guidelines. Rublamb (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Given the wide variance of gender rules, I tend to move these facts to the body text. Until about ten years ago, the three options were consistent: men's, women's and co-ed.  Today, some groups proudly lead with "nonbinary" or trans-friendly in the lede.  Others have no interest in further differentiating.  Forcing the point seems to tread into political matters and may evoke edit warring.  It would be a significant project to keep track of which groups have effected which level of policy on this.  I, for one, don't have time to research this, nor keep track of annual legislation.  Let's let each individual group opt to adjust their body text, if it is that important to them. Many will not, and are satisfied with declaring "men's", "women's" or "co-ed" in the lede.  Jax MN (talk) 22:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There are two different issues. 1) One is my proposal to identify fraternities vs. sororities/women's fraternities for social organizations. This is something that we essentially do in many cases by including umbrella org affiliation, but since we should not assume everyone knows what those umbrella initials mean, this detail would make that info more accessible. Indicating what the group calls itself is not necessarily a reflection of the membership's makeup, so we are not getting involved in identifying who can or cannot join. I agree, that that is beyond the purpose of the infobox.
 * 2) The other issue is the best way to include GLOs that have a gender focus which is a key aspect of the organization. For example, if a professional sorority's purpose is to help women become leaders, not including the gender focus is akin to ignoring that a group is multicultural, Jewish, or historically black. We could indicate this by noting its Type is a Professional Sorority or that its Emphasis is Women's Leadership. Does anyone have a preference or another suggestion? We already include LGBTQ in Emphasis if that if the organization's purpose/mission. The rare women-only or mens-only professional, honor, or service groups seem to be the outliers. Rublamb (talk) 01:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

SUNY regional fraternities
Just as a note, I think if a page can be created for Delta Kappa, the NY Regional forced to have its chapters or at least the ones in New York forced Local, we *should* be able to do the same with others from the SUNY system like Alpha Delta Sorority which I think is older. In the 1929 SUNY-Brockport yearbook (https://dspace.sunyconnect.suny.edu/bitstreams/65b23998-922a-46d6-b663-85fb5385b774/download), it had chapters at Brockport, Cortland, Geneseo, Oneonta, Oswego, Plattsburgh, Bloomsburg and Fredonia. Agonia Sorority also had about the same number over the SUNY schools. Naraht (talk) 02:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Patron X
I definitely undercounted. Patron Saint has at least: Phi Mu Delta, Mu Epsilon Theta, Pi Lambda Sigma, Tau Gamma Sigma, Delta Phi, Theta Phi Alpha, Theta Xi, St. Anthony Hall, AV Edo-Rhenania zu Tokio. Patron Greek Divinity appears to have 16, and Patron Roman Divinity has 5. Wierdest is Theta Kappa Pi which has as its Patron Greek Divinity as Odin the Wanderer (!) which I'm still trying to find a reference for. (added very close to the beginning, which a ref that appears dead. http://mycampus.lewisu.edu/web/170608/about-us .Naraht (talk) 03:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Sarcastic me says "guess we need a field fo Patron Norse Divinity". Being serious, it looks like Greek Divinity is the one the change to the new Patron Divinity field, then we can move the others over. Rublamb (talk) 15:54, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Though at this point, I'm not sure we *need* to change. (ignoring Theta Kappa Pi's situation), I'm not sure that these (at 16, 9 & 5) are the least used of the paramers. I'm guessing both coords and pillars are in the bottom mostly below that. At *most*, I'd want to change this to a variety of free & free_label. (Patron and Patron type?) and does that gain us much? Still wish I could figure out how many are used of each parameter.Naraht (talk) 15:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think Pillars is not used because most groups call these something else (often a made up term or phrase). I have added these when I come across them. Having one Patron Divinity field would trim the long list of options and allow for outliers. I would call it Patron Divinity not Patron to avoid possible confusion with sponsors/founders who might be called a Patron. BTW, Affiliation and Status still are not showing up as options in Visual Editor unless they are already added. So we need to solve that issue before or when we make changes. Rublamb (talk) 16:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I see Affiliations and Status at the very end of the list when I use the VE. What is your last one?Naraht (talk) 17:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I saw them there and thought things were good, but then noticed it was missing. Maybe it is there when adding a new infoboxes, but not for older ones? Or maybe it has to do with whether the infobox was added through VE or not. Picked one at ramdon. See Swing Phi Swing. Rublamb (talk) 17:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It is putting at the end, any undocumented fields that the parameters exists in that article's infobox. So Swing Phi Swing has factoid and Delta Delta Delta has affiliation and status. (that is the (undocumented parameter) note I'm not sure what needs to be altered in Template:Infobox fraternity/doc, but, I'll try to tweek it.Naraht (talk) 18:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Status starting showing up. Now it looks like affiation is there too. Will let you know if I find any other issues. Rublamb (talk) 22:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Results from the template param list
From the Param list result shown below... (as of June 1) I think for the ones with Saint in them, change to the article name for the person.
 * Roman Divinity(total 5):Minerva(3), Mars, Mercury
 * Greek Divinity (total 16):Apollo (2), Ares, Artemis, Athena, Asclepius, Calliope, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hygieia, Iris, Odin the Wanderer (????), Pallas Athena, Poseidon, Themis
 * Saint(total 10): Albert Magnus, Abraham Lincoln (????), Anthony the Great(2), Ben Franklin (????), Catherine of Sienna, Erasmus of Formia(2), Margaret the Virgin, Saint Catherine of Laboure,

And as a note, the following parameters have values *less* than Patron Roman Divinity: chartercity, coordinates, charterdate, virtues, postal code, and province.Naraht (talk) 21:42, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

 * chartercity and charterdate are not needed as we have Founded and Birthplace. Rublamb (talk) 16:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Thanks Naraht. Your analysis proves we can combine these patron variants into a single field.  I also agree with Rublamb that the "chartercity" and  "charterdate" are unnecessary.  I'd also dump "coordinates" and "virtues", but keep alternative fields "postal code" and "province" out of respect to our Canadian groups. Jax MN (talk) 20:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So replace with two fields: Patron type with an expected small number of choices: Roman Divinity, Greek Divinity, Saint, and *maybe* Divinity (for those groups using Apollo, which doesn't change names between Greek and Roman, and for Odin the wanderer.
 * Province is used at least once by one of the Philippines groups, which doesn't seem unreasonable. I don't know what countries have something other than State or Province as their first level subdivision, my guess is that we are most likely to run into problems for one of the Eastern European Groups.
 * Zeroing out chartercity and charterdate will take a few minutes if we are all find for it. Virtues, probably easier to remove them from the infobox entirely.Naraht (talk) 01:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me Rublamb (talk) 01:38, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You might also add the choice of "Hero" to account for persons like Abraham Lincoln, Ben Franklin, etc. Jax MN (talk) 17:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Theta Nu Epsilon?
Hi All,

Was just talking with @Naraht over some deletions I made over at Theta Nu Epsilon. Long story short, about a decade ago a bunch of sockpuppets put a whole bunch of fake history on that page and I'm trying to sort out the legit from the totally bogus. There is a whole talk page about it, but complicating the issue is a bunch of the sockpuppets engage in a fake fight with each other. Anyway any help folks could give in cleaning up the article would be greatly appreciated! Jjazz76 (talk) 20:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The Primary source used for the chapter list that was recently deleted is the one from a website that someone put together, which can https://web.archive.org/web/20150403113708/http://thetanuepsilon.org/13Chaplis/ChapterList.html . Other lists that I have found (mostly by googling "Theta Nu Epsilon" and picked at random from the first list Bowdoin) include https://books.google.com/books?id=xbU0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA233 and https://books.google.com/books?id=PfDmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA228 . The second although without letters, is from Banta's greek exchange. Note, normally I'd consider Banta's and Baird's as being neutral secondary/tertiary sources for articles about GLOs, but for Theta Nu Epsilon, they would be viewed as *somewhat* antagonistic. Went through my copies of Baird's, and wierdly enough some of the index entries in some editions were screwy, but they best I could do is the 1930s Baird's which had a list of those that were part of the 1925ish reconstruction to be more acceptable as a GLO like those in the NIC (no double membership, etc). This is missing quite a few. For example, *every* source I can find has the chapter list starting Wesleyan, Syracuse, Union, Cornell and Rochester. I'd also suggest editions of the Wesleyan Olla Podrida, for example https://books.google.com/books?id=va8PAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA67 .Naraht (talk) 21:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Baird's 20th has a list of 17 chapters. I'd suggest we roll back these edits and begin looking for sources that confirm each of the groups previously listed. Jax MN (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the effort to improve this article but I agree to a rollback is best in this situtation. Some of the recently deleted content appears to have legit sources, such as athe chapter list. If content with a citation is going to be removed, there needs to be documentation as to what was wrong with that source, probably on the article's talk page OR replacement content with a new/better source. If these edits are being made based on personal knowledge and not sources, that falls under original research. Rublamb (talk) 22:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Some of the sources, as far as I could tell, didn't exist or were legitimately made up. The archive talk page way at the bottom, from back in 2008 describes the issues further. But again, if folks think I've deleted too much, I'm totally fine with that. Just trying to work on an article that is a bit of a mess. Jjazz76 (talk) 22:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * References:   Jax MN (talk) 22:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for these. I just want to make clear I have no issues with Baird or any of the standard reference volumes. There is also a good NY Times article citation in the article that discusses these 1910s to 1920s issues. But the article as it stood, base on a mid-2000s website, list well over 100 chapters many of which had no documentation in Baird, standard reference volumes, or some of the college newspapers I looked through. Jjazz76 (talk) 22:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Good faith, certainly. I found some of the claims to be dubious or worse when I worked on that article.  However, after I cleared out some of the chuff, I left the long-ish list of chapters as a breadcrumb trail to help others start their searches for individual chapter references.  I also wrote the summary reference (#1, below), which I think is a fair round-up of a couple of sources.  I use that language elsewhere, so had copied-and-pasted it from the U of MN list of fraternities on Wikipedia. More broadly, it may be useful in a revision to the TNE article.  Others here are better researchers, and we welcome additions to our ranks.  I anticipate that the legitimate TNE chapters will surface in one or two references, somewhere. Jax MN (talk) 23:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * GLOs rarely show up in campus newspapers after the 1980s unless there is a hazing incident or chapter house fire, so that does not prove or disprove a chapter. Frustratingly, even yearbooks are not accurate in the last quarter of the 20th century. And, since Baird's last edition was in 1992, we would expect there to be a difference between it and an organizational chapter list from the 2000s. A lot can happen in 2000 years! I will see what I can find--just give me a few days to wrap up other projects. Rublamb (talk) 23:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Order for status
After I've added Status to a number of articles, I've seen someone else go in and Status get moved to before Type. Is this done automatically when Visual Edits are done to the Infobox, or is this being done by hand. And in either case, should I put it prior to Type rather than at the end. (Yes, I know it works in either place, but so that it doesn't have to get moved) Naraht (talk) 18:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

 * I have not moved any but have used VE to added Status. With VE, Status seems to go after Type. Rublamb (talk) 19:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Eh, "Someone" here. Truly, sorry to cause any annoyance. I appreciate the collaborative work.  Yes, the Infobox forces a specific order to these, which appears fully workable.  As I go through the list of pages missing the image_size field, and as I generally review all edited pages, I routinely move the metatext fields to their approximate or exact position to match how the infobox presents them. I know that you are helpfully adding these using Visual Editor. My intent is to ensure newbie and even more experienced editors don't get tripped up by varying presentations of the infobox code.  Hence, I add spacing and move these fields to a consistent position. It makes it clearer to read, when in basic edit mode. Jax MN (talk) 20:16, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's fine. I very much *do not* use VE. (the only thing I find useful in VE is being able to add/delete/move columns in tables). If it helps with consistency I will add it before type. I figure that type is a field that we go out of our way to fill in, so it will always be there. I do support consistency of infoboxes in the behind the scenes, and very much appreciate standardization with the | on the far left followed by a space and the parameter and then the = signs in a column as much as possible.Naraht (talk) 21:11, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you. We've all been solidly consistent in ferreting out the rules for our infoboxes, tables and the general project itself. In this pass through the watchlist I've been focused on the size and presentation of crests, and my cleanup of the other params is incidental. Hence I have been grouping them and may have missed adjustment of where they fit into the exact order listed in the infobox template.  My order has been:  name/letters/crest/founding, then status/type/emphasis/scope/affiliation, then symbols/colors/mottos/etc, then free fields, then address fields in order, then website, then ending with footnotes.  I am detail oriented, like other editors, but not so much that I am scrutinizing beyond these general placements.

 * By the way, I am, however, a diligent proofreader. I have done it for so long in my professional life that I can't really turn that off.  When you see adjustments made or typos corrected, please don't take offense.  I often see them before the red underline of my browser app kicks in to alert me.  I will try to avoid any edit conflict sessions and keep an eye on the "In Use" templates.

 * Some day we should have a Zoom call, and share a virtual glass of port or wine, and you all can give me the barbs I deserve. Jax MN (talk) 21:27, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Naraht: I think we should always use VE to create chapter tables because other editors will be able to update status and dates with either visual or source, depending on skill level. Whereas, a table created in source can only be edited in source, excluding less experienced editors from contributing. (If you prefer source, simply create a three-row table in VE, save it, and then work in source). The downside is that VE doesn't always insert the spaces--which are not required for the code to function. I have decided to see such things as personal preference, rather than essential, but do understand how spacing makes it easier.
 * I was under the impression that regardless of how the table was made, either single pipes at the beginning of each line or double pipes that allow for multiple entries that VE could handle it. I prefer one data element per line, that can be handled by VE, correct?Naraht (talk) 23:20, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * VE does one data element per line in tables. The spacing I am talking about is within the line, such as |Alpha vs | Alpha. Rublamb (talk) 23:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

 * @Jax MN: When adding the crest or seal to the Infobox using VE, a template note indicates that the image will automatically be sized appropriately to the preferred norm of 220 (set by MOS). IF no size is added. Thus, it is no longer necessary to manually add a size for these images. As a result, the only cleanup needed would be for images that need to be smaller because they are blurry or images that were historically given a smaller or larger than normal size. Unfortunately, our cleanup project is for "no size" when we actually need a report for non-standard sizes. Rublamb (talk) 23:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So you would prefer a category for image_size is neither blank nor 220?Naraht (talk) 23:20, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I responded hours ago, but it was on my phone, and I think the connection flaked out before it posted to Wikipedia. My point was, the native size of these graphics, as they display, varies widely.  Thus the default isn't very helpful.  Very few would look correct expressed with only the default 220px.  Perhaps 20% of all of them I have seen.  I use sizing anywhere between 100px to even 300px to make them all come out similar in display size.  As for the member badges, these typically are enclosed in double square brackets, with a pipe instruction to display somewhere between 40px to 60px.  Finally, some of the flag images had been set to 150px, but I've been backing those off to 120px.  Seems to work well, visually.

 * I'll use that trick with VE when first creating a table. Didn't know that.  Jax MN (talk) 08:17, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. For clarity: the default image size is just for the crest or seal--the two that connect to the image size field that is that is part of the report @Naraht set up. The flag and badge fields always require manual sizing and positioning if placed in those fields. Rublamb (talk) 16:09, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * To clarify, it is when a table is created with the FratChapter template that makes it uneditable in VE. Rublamb (talk) 05:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The order of parameters in an infobox on an article does not matter, they will always show up in the same order on the observed template. If parameters get rearranged during the course of updating an infobox, we should not care. Primefac (talk) 11:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Primefac, I am accustomed to reading Metadata as I code websites. I agree that for us on the 'active Project team', we can navigate fine. My rationale for caring about back-end order is two-fold: first, our current pages are used as templates so consistency breeds better pages. Second, some editors will find it easier to navigate consistent views where we add extra spacing and lines, and place params in anticipated spots. Jax MN (talk) 18:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's fair, I suppose my point was more that it doesn't necessarily need to be a "cleanup task" (as I myself maintain a few infoboxes where it drives me nuts when people put things in a non-standard order). Primefac (talk) 13:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Motto & translation
For the Infobox University, there is a motto and a motto_eng as well as a field for the language of the Motto. While we don't need the last, I think, should the motto and it's translation be split into separate fields?Naraht (talk) 07:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Five or six years ago, didn't you try to capture all the text found on various crests, to place in one of the table columns on the one-page list of all the IFC and NPC organizations? I think after some discussion we decided it was fruitless, and agreed it was an unnecessary capture.  Somewhat in the same way, I think we are OK in just placing a line break between the Greek and the translation.  I sometimes place the translation in a smaller font, if the fit is better. I think that is probably adequate. Jax MN (talk) 09:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Looking up Delta Upsilon's "Justice, Our foundation" (which is one of the public, easy to get ones that I can't imagine not getting). It looks like the effort was as part of the greek on the coat of arms at List of social fraternities and sororities. (No page other than that one and Delta Upsilon have that text). User:Gts-tg was the person who started the effort in 2017 a. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_social_fraternities_and_sororities&oldid=794058619 Naraht (talk) 18:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe that is correct. Of couse, the phrase on the ceast is not always the motto. Rublamb (talk) 19:14, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I am neutral on having two fields. It would look nice (if we can make sure that the two fields are adjacent) but would be another big project. Also, many of the mottos are now in English only. I have followed the practice of the Latin/foreign language version first, followed by the English version in parenthesis with no line break. At least, that seems to be the most common format. I personally do not like the smaller font. Rublamb (talk) 16:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Colonies, alternative name
, you might be best suited to make this adjustment. I don't think it will be controversial. We have a current parameter that forces a swap from the standard name of "Pledge" to read as any alternative name denoted in the associated fields, "pledge pin" and "colony pledge pin". Yet we still have "Colonies" as the only option for emerging groups. Either we include the terms "Associate Chapters" and "Provisional Chapters" that would be allowed synonyms, or we (er, you) create an open-ended field that populates an alternative word for this field. I think those are the only two synonyms I've encountered. Note that the syntax should be plural, i.e.; "colonies". Jax MN (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

 * This is the same issue that exists with Pillars which might be called principals, core beliefs, values, etc. There are other names in use for colonies, especially with the newer GLO and/or multicultural groups. In the chapters section, I state what the group calls its colonies and, then, use the term colony in the table (making it match the infobox). Are we also going to expand the terms used in chapter lists? Honestly, colonies are transitional in nature and not as important to count, IMO. Baird's only provided a total count for active and inactive chapters. Rublamb (talk) 02:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I wouldn't be that sad if the entire concept of colonies disappeared from the infobox.Naraht (talk) 17:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That would be fine with me. As I said, they are temporary thing. Rublamb (talk) 18:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Are we removing or allowing for an alternate label? Primefac (talk) 20:45, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not the most important field as it is transitory. However, I'd like to keep it. It may serve the Project by increasing participation by new editors who update these fields from time to time.  Additionally, I don't believe I've ever seen this particular field vandalized on any of the GLO pages over the past decade.  Keep it. Jax MN (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Negative issues in lede...
After seeing the change to Alpha Kappa Rho. I'm generally feeling the following way. Negative issues should only be included in the lede if that is the only thing that the group has notability for at all. the only one that I can come up with that fits that is Chi Tau (local) (where I am fine with the current) Naraht (talk) 21:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

 * When I was cleaning up that article, I decided to leave the existing lede content related to violence and gang behavior. I agree it could be tempered but this is relevant here because this is not just a service fraternity. Service fraternities do not require police-led peace accords. IMO, it would be like only mentioning that a Nigerian confraternity is a service organization and ignoring its history of piracy. Even given your suggestion of only including negative content if this is why the group is notable, I believe the only sources for this article that are not primary are about its violent history, making that the only reason the group is notable. Rublamb (talk) 03:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Two cents: The lede should be a summary of the article's following paragraphs, distilling in one or two sentences the key points about the society. Indeed, the two examples you mention (three, with mention of the Nigerian group), these three indeed should include the detrimental information in the lede.  Jax MN (talk) 08:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Jax MN, Do you have time to look at Alpha Kappa Rho and restore some mention of the negative content? You are really good a distilling facts into a reasonable amount of content. Rublamb (talk) 13:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * In regards to peace accords, while you have the mention of peace accords in regards to AKRho and Tau Gamma Phi, it is much broader than that. Please take a look at the announcement of the peace accord at Western Mindanao State University which covers AKRho, Tau Gamma Phi/Sigma, Alpha Sigma Phi, Alpha Phi Omega, Order of Demolay and others. (And if negative belongs in the lead,  Tau Gamma Phi probably also qualifies. (18 hazing deaths in the last 18 years more or less)) Naraht (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Mergers of equals to new name.
I think the groups we have articles coming from a merger of multi chapter groups (>5 chapters) to *new* name are Delta Sigma Rho-Tau Kappa Alpha, Phi Kappa Theta, Kappa Omicron Nu and Delta Theta Phi. Now that Rublamb has done the work on splitting out DSR and TKA. That leaves Delta Theta Phi which was only formed from a merger of multi chapter groups, it later had another group merge into that. Any others spring to mind? Naraht (talk) 21:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Rollup of Parameters and values. *VERY USEFUL*
A bot runs every month (current was done on June 1) that has a rollup of all of the values. (https://bambots.brucemyers.com/TemplateParam.php?wiki=enwiki&template=Infobox+fraternity) This was a *lot* of useful information, for example, for the parameter patron roman divinity, you can show links to all of the pages that use it *or* click on the Unique values columns, see how many unique values there are and for each of *them* see what pages they have. One annoying piece of data, I want to track down. 787 pages with the infobox, 787 with type, 787 with scope, and *786* with founded. Which means *one* article doesn't have it.

It is generated monthly, so we won't be able to see our recent changes for a bit, but it *will* be useful. Let me know what you find most useful!Naraht (talk) 03:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Another issue: The Bot reports 787 pages with the Infobox fraternity. The List of Articles on the WP landing page only has only 744. If I understand how the List is generated, this means that 43 articles do not have WP Fraternities and Sororities listed on their Talkpage. I will see if I can find these using petscan. (Anything to avoid fixing the issues with Christian fraternities). Rublamb (talk) 15:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Petscan found seven. Working on it. Rublamb (talk) 15:30, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

July
Looked at the talk page for the creator of the bambot (User:Bamyers99). It appears that the run with the June 1 data was created on June 9. It processes a generated file from Wikipedia that takes a while to generate. I dropped him a note thanking him and asking if the 9th was about normal. (With these types of generated files, I'd be *very* surprised if it ever came earlier than the 4th).Naraht (talk) 21:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * July has been generated. Any additions of suggested/required will not show up until August. I'll take a look at July to see what changes we are looking at.Naraht (talk) 17:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And the work I did yesterday is not reflected. I guess will will need to wait another month to make sure that unwanted fields are truly not in use. But this is still progress. Rublamb (talk) 19:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Correct. It is based on the State of the Wikipedia database as of July 1.Naraht (talk) 20:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Founded
As of June, there was *one* infobox without founded. *If* the infobox is set so that it is suggested or required, the rollup will show a link so we can see which one is missing. Similarly, I think it could be done on the others that are more than 700, chapters, name, birthplace, and country.Naraht (talk) 01:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Or, I was thinking we could use Excel to compare the complete list with the list of items with countries, etc. It has been a while since I have used that feature, but it should yield a list of aritlces lacking whatever component. Rublamb (talk) 05:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Found it! Aquinas Honor Society. Working on getting a date, I've found one that places it no later than 1951.Naraht (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Great! Rublamb (talk) 15:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

State and Country in Infobox
As far as I can tell from the parameter listing, most common for country is "United States", no link, but not sure on the states for linking. Naraht (talk) 14:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) ) Do we link to the State and/or Country?
 * 2) ) Do we abbreviate to Postal Abbreviation/Standard abbreviation in the Display if we do?
 * 3) ) Additionally what should be shown for the country containing Chicago: US, USA, United States or United States of America?
 * For US states I'd previously been using the two-letter postal abbreviations. However you or Rublamb have asserted use of the full state name. I'd also read that US Postal abbreviations aren't optimal here, per MOS, so I'm onboard with using the full state name.  Note also I don't think we need Wikilinks for instances of "United States" as the country, also per MOS. Jax MN (talk) 17:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Jax MN, you are correct. MOS calls for United States, U.S. or US, rather than USA or United States of America. It also says not to link the last item in city, state, country string--so country would not be linked but city and state would be (could be). MOS says to avoid abbreviations but does recognize state abbreviations as being standard. This means that state abbreviations are allowed but the full state name would be preferred, with abbreviations being used where space is a consideration. (You could argue either way on the space issue with an Infobox0. Since people from around the world use Wikipedia, I don't assume that everyone knows what the state abbreviations mean, which is why I tend to spell them out. But either is fine. I started spelling out United States because I spell out Canada, Puerto Rico, the Philippines, etc. rather than using country abbreviations. But, again, the abbreviated form is allowable. Rublamb (talk) 20:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So from this. If the addresses city is Portland Oregon, we should have
 * Choice 1: Portland, Oregon, United States
 * Choice 2: Portland, OR, United States
 * Should we standardize?Naraht (talk) 14:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Country
No answer to the above question on standardization, but it does appear we have agreement, always use United States unlinked. I'll put that on the todo list.Naraht (talk) 21:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Proposed additions to Affiliation
I know these organizations don't exist but our usage of adding past affiliations has been spotty. For example, a group that was Naraht (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) ) PPA: Professional Panhellenic Association
 * 2) ) PIC: Professional Interfraternity Conference
 * 3) ) AES: Association of Education Sororities
 * 4) ) CNHL: (*Maybe*) Concilio Nacional de Hermandades Latinas

 * Sorry I did not respond. I have no issue with these being added. Rublamb (talk) 18:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I need to go back and do CNHL.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Upsilon Phi Sigma
I got a start on the chapter list for Upsilon Phi Sigma. Can someone take a look at the redlinked colleges? Many on this list have had one or many name changes or are in Wikipedia with slight name variations and no redirects for prior names. Some might be defunct. I found and linked many but still have many redlinks. Rublamb (talk) 15:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look... If it helps, List of Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines) chapters and alumni associations has had *many* of the same issues and has somewhat overcome them, you may want to look at some of the names for hints. Also looking for the name in tl.wikipedia.org *can* be useful if only to get an interlanguage link. APO Philippines is probably the most stable in many regards of the GLOs (other than the single school ones like the legal and medical ones), but that is still not a high bar.Naraht (talk) 18:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Additional GLO umbrella
Apparently at one point there was a Fraternity equivalent to the AES: Association of Teachers College Fraternities, Had Sigma Tau Gamma, Phi Sigma Epsilon & Zeta Sigma. (Zeta Sigma has an entry in the 1940 Baird's so probably could have an article. Founded in 1936 by the first two, existed until at least after WWII.Naraht (talk) 13:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Have these been added to the Watchlist? Rublamb (talk) 18:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I can do so, it would be redlinked. though I did find a school newspaper announcing its formation.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You can always creat a stub with that source! Rublamb (talk) 22:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure. I'll try to get to in on Monday.Naraht (talk) 23:45, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

No longer active on the collegiate level...
Groups with descriptions like this, should be treated as Active or Defunct??? Rho Psi is the example, but there are others.Naraht (talk) 19:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I have skipped over these hoping to magically come up with a solution. Maybe it depends. Is it actively initiating members to alumni or community based chapters? That would be an active. However, if it just has the dregs of an alumni association or a national board, it might be an active organization but is longer an active fraternity. The same way a defunct college with an alumni association is no longer an active college. I think the main questions in deciding are: Does it still initiate new members? Does it still have chapters? Has it migrated from a fraternity/sorority to an organization based on WP criteria? Rublamb (talk) 20:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Does anyone else what to weigh in on this? Does my criteria make sense? Rublamb (talk) 18:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I like the idea. If it is still making new members of any type, it is active.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Current list: Infobox fraternity/sorority & Notability or No Ref Tag

 * Adelphian Society (local Social 40 years, merged into National)
 * Aleph Samach (local Honor 80 years, inactive)
 * Alpha Beta Psi (2 chapter -> 1 chapter, 45 years)
 * Alpha Pi Delta (non-collegiate African American LGBTQ, org website only reference)
 * Delete: I'm unable to find any other sources. Still can remain on the LGBTQ list article. Rublamb (talk) 01:12, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Delta Epsilon Mu (50+ chapter national professional, PFA, *zero* references)
 * Delta Sigma Chi (10-15 chapter national professional, PFA, one non-primary reference)
 * Enosinian Society (literary at Geo. Wash., 102 years old, org website is only reference)
 * Kappa Alpha Lambda (4 chapter social, *zero* secondary references)
 * Kappa Phi Gamma (20 chapter social, reference to Almanac and one school webpage)
 * Kappa Zeta Phi (no secondary references) thin, but now has citations from newspapers and university websites Rublamb (talk) 00:30, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Korp! Leola, (Estonian, only one source)
 * Korporatsioon Vironia (no sources; references exist in German Wikipedia)
 * Mu Epsilon Theta (1 chapter (at one time 5) social, *zero* secondary references)
 * Delete - I found nothing that was helpful to add. It can be on the list of service and/or religious GLO, but this article should be AfD. Rublamb (talk) 23:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 * National Art Honor Society (honorary, no secondary references)
 * Omega Pi Lambda (brand new article for local, no sources) another editor moved this to draft. I added its website and the college website but this will not be enough to get it out of draftspace Rublamb (talk) 04:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Phi Alpha Mu (local social, about 100 years old, one true secondary source)
 * Delete: Only other sources were mentions of brides or graduates being members. The one secondary source is a local newspaper that basically quotes a member who says it is a local that has existed for 30 years and has 1000 alumni. The bulk of its content is from the group's website. But enough to be included in our list article. Rublamb (talk) 23:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Phi Sigma Iota (no sources) sources added Rublamb (talk) 23:06, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Presidium Convent (no sources)
 * Quill and Scroll (no sources but some are available)
 * Rotalia (corporation) (Estonian, group's website is only source) source added
 * Sigma Alpha Lambda (honorary, *zero* secondary references)
 * Sigma Kappa Delta (honorary, org's website is only reference)
 * Tau Alpha (Philippine one chapter engineering at U of Philippines - Diliman) sources added by Naraht (talk) 22:26, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Trident Society removed, references are good enough (local honor society at Duke)
 * Upsilon Pi Epsilon (honorary, group website only reference} sources added Rublamb (talk) 00:41, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Zeta Mu Gamma (high school GLO; only references is for a notable member. AfD?)
 * Delete: I didn't find any sources for this. 19:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)Rublamb (talk)

Naraht (talk) 15:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Wren Society (local honor society @ William & Mary, references needed, but 191 years old, so should be *something*)

 * @Naraht: can I merge my short list of articles with no sources into this list since the issue is pretty much the same? Rublamb (talk) 19:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure. And Tau Alpha needs To be restored to the list reverted my removal. Currently at Talk:Tau Alpha, would appreciate eyes on.Naraht (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Done. Rublamb (talk) 23:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Founding fathers order.
Let's say that a GLO has 8 founding fathers and *always* lists them in a particular order, (let's say the primary founder, and then the order that brought the others into the ritual). Would this ordering be appropriate in the article and would it need to be proved or otherwise, it would be perfectly reasonable for an editor to alphabetize. I'm currently watching a video about the history of Alpha Kappa Rho in a language I don't understand (Tagalog), but the order is clearly not alphabetical for the founders.Naraht (talk) 20:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * My preference is to list these in alphabetical order by last name, or if a specific founder is given preferential notification by the national organization, I think it reasonable to follow their ordering system. But this latter situation may only impact 5% of the organizations, if I were to take a guess. Jax MN (talk) 21:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I prefer alphabetical order. The order of initiation of founders is organizational trivia, rather than encyclopedic. Generally, the source for initiation order is going to be a primary source. Baird's would be the preferred source and did not specify this info, which I think sets the standard. If there is a primary founder, this is typically mentioned in the text of article. Rublamb (talk) 00:19, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

People in the Infobox Fraternity. (and yes, if it needs to be moved to the template talk...)
Various Infobox Fraternity free_label/free combos values have people, ranging from Board Chair to Founder to President elect. Would people be comfortable with a blanket policy that these don't belong there? Naraht (talk) 13:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes! Rublamb (talk) 16:12, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. Jax MN (talk) 18:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Just checking, are we talking about removing people or removing the free_label parameter entirely? Primefac (talk) 10:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Primefac: Removing the people/current officers from the Infobox. We have previously discussed the limited value of this content within the article. The free_label still have great value. Rublamb (talk) 18:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Keep the free_labels.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

zip code parameter value
Does it really matter if what is input is a 5 digit zip like 20853 or a Zip +4 of 20853-3272? Naraht (talk) 17:05, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. I also think we should combine Postal Code and Zipcode into one field called Post Code. That way, it will work for all countries. Rublamb (talk) 00:19, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I prefer ZIP+4, where we have it. The additional four numbers code mail to a particular bag or carrier, making the address complete, therefore.  As to combining ZIP and Postal, I see the marginal value in 'downsizing' but don't think the effort improves clarity, much. I'd keep both options. Jax MN (talk) 18:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Wait... what?
 * The postcode isn't being used for anything, so whether it's five digits or twenty five doesn't really matter. Also, I'm not really sure what folks mean by "combining" the terms other than the fact that is used like that verbatim in the code, i.e. it's basically alternate names for the same parameter. While I'm going to tweak the code to make that a little more explicit, I don't really see a need to add a third parameter into the mix that would require updating all transclusions. Primefac (talk) 10:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * By combining, I meant that we don't need two options, as "postal code" covers it for all countries. I know most of you never use VE for infoboxes, but the list of options is quite long and not in alphabetical order. Getting rid of any unnecessary options will make it more user friendly. Rublamb (talk) 17:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Disagree. there are a *lot* of cases where parameters are mutually exclusive. In fact the only change that I'd make is having Postal Code and Zip code report an error if both are present.

Scope...
Sigma Sigma Sigma's situation. All in the USA except for one inactive in Germany. National (US) or International?Naraht (talk) 17:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that if they once were international, they may continue to claim it. Jax MN (talk) 18:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * National Rublamb (talk) 17:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, no conclusion here for now. I don't know if we have any other examples.
 * The reason I prefer to allow "International" is that my (our?) bias on Wikipedia is to write historically due to the trailing nature of the work. This resource (WP) is often and is usually current, but a comprehensive summary ought to be our goal, not only immediate accuracy.  It's why we don't delete inactive groups nor pare articles down to only reflect the current situation.  At least that is the way I infer our MOS. Jax MN (talk) 20:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For an active group, having scope reflect its current status is consistent with having the chapter count be active chapters only. I would also call a once-national GLO with only one active chapter "local", not national or international. If the group in this example is defunct or merged, we use the total chapter count and would logically use international. To me, it is puffery to say that a group with just one defunct international chapter is international in scope. In some cases, the international chapters went inactive around the time of WWII, so it is really not accurate to call them intenational. Rublamb (talk) 20:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. I'm OK with this rationale. Jax MN (talk) 23:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Added Former_Affiliation to template
I added Former Affiliation and Former_Affiliation2. These have the same choices as Affiliation and Affiliation2 plus AES (Association of Education Sororities), PPA (Professional Panhellenic Association) and PIC (Professional Interfraternity Conference). I've also added columns to the former members of the PFA (which included former members of the PIC and PPA) and indicated which they have joined, the same should probably be done with the active members, I'll get to that as I can. With that, I'm not sure what other umbrella organizations should be added to the possible Former Affiliation.Naraht (talk) 06:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I support this change but have concerns about having to update hundreds of articles. At a minimum, we would have to update the Infobox for every defunct GLO, any GLO that were members of a defunct umbrella, and any former members of active umbrella. In terms of what to include: everything, as active and inactive umbrella groups would be possible responses. You can also remove defunct umbrellas as options for Affilaition and Affiliation 2, although that might have to wait until we make the needed corrections to 700+ articles. The big question would be former names of active umbrellas--do both umbrellas now get listed; one as active and the other as former? Rublamb (talk) 18:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And I've already gotten started. Didn't include AES, PPA, or PIC in the Affiliation/Affiliation2. Working my way through using the parameter lister. And *NO* to listing National Interfraternity Conference as former for a member of the North American Interfraternity Council. (and similar)Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Down to 86 with (former) in their infobox. Will pick up in the next day or so.Naraht (talk) 02:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Great progress. Rublamb (talk) 01:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Association of Teachers College Fraternities
This was an another Umbrella Group. Sort of equivalent to the Association of Education Sororities. Created by Phi Sigma Epsilon and Sigma Tau Gamma in 1937 and joined by Zeta Sigma. In the 1940 Baird's with a complete description like the other umbrellas, but I can't find it mentioned in 1949 and both Phi Sigma Epsilon and Sigma Tau Gamma joined the NIC in the early 1950s. Pretty much everything I can find is from the 1940s Baird's about them and I'm going to have try to figure out what happened to Zeta Sigma beyond simply imploding. Naraht (talk) 14:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I added a couple of other redlinked umbrella groups to our Watchlist yesterday. One for law fraternities and the other for medical fraternities. Both have around a page in at least one edition of Bairds. I will create an article at some point. But I was not sure if these should be added to the template and Infobox, since both were later replaced with bigger professional groups. Does the one you are looking at fall under that category--a short lived group that merged or was replaced? Rublamb (talk) 17:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Similar to AES, once the more well known group that was present at more prestigious group allowed chapters as teachers colleges, they let the other just die. So like AES, they qualify.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Different targets for NIC/NPC/Other former members.
If a page for an umbrella group has a separate section for former members (active or defunct) should the target for the link go there instead of the top of the article?Naraht (talk) 15:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Yes. I think it is always better to link to the specific section. This may even be specified in MOS somewhere. Rublamb (talk) 17:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll work on this, NIC is going to be particularly ugly since it would have to include status.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Affiliation Checker
I changed several groups that went inactive or merged as members of the NIC. As such, I don't think they should *have* an entry for Affiliation. Should having either Affiliation *or* Former Affiliation count for not going in that checker category? Naraht (talk) 16:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Is this regarding the Infobox? I don't see an issue with indicating Affilation for merged or defunct groups. Just like listing chapters or location when there is a Status of merged or defunct, this information might be usesful and it is obvious that this was a former connection. Plus, we have already added this to almost all of the Infoboxes. Rublamb (talk) 17:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean that right now the template throws into a maintenance category if affiliation isn't filled in. But now we have defunct groups with only a former_affiliation.Naraht (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe update the maintence category to zero value for affilaition or former affiation? Rublamb (talk) 01:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll need to take a look, I know we accept multiples to turn off for website/homepage.Naraht (talk) 08:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Check updated. I would like to kindly request that discussions about the template (in particular, those dealing with the inner workings of the template) be done at the template talk page; this is a very active project talk page and sometimes I miss template discussions in the shuffle. Primefac (talk) 12:50, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Apologies. I should have started the conversation here and put a note here about it.Naraht (talk) 13:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Commons club or Commons Club
The article and the infobox (plus most of the article) conflict on the capitalization on the second c, which way should it be? Naraht (talk) 23:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think Club would also be capitalized, as it is a formal noun. Jax MN (talk) 23:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is actually two articles that are incorrectly mashed together--I have been avoiding fixing it. There is 1) Commons Club, an specific membership organization that should be capitalized 2) commons club, a type of general organization akin to a fraternity or society. Rublamb (talk) 00:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Delta Psi Kappa
Sorting out Delta Psi Kappa. Couldn't both have been in the PFA (which was founded in 1978) and have merged with Phi Delta Pi in 1970. Need to check the 1991 Bairds...Naraht (talk) 00:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delta Psi Kappa, the physical education fraternity, is in the PFA section of Baird's 20th. Its merger partner, Phi Delta Pi, also a women's physical education fraternity held other affiliations, including the American Association for Health, Physical Education and Recreation. The notes for the latter, dormant organization say it merged with Delta Psi Kappa, a member of the "Professional Panhellenic Association" in March of 1970. Jax MN (talk) 00:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Otoh, it is listed as a founding member on PFA's website. I wonder if it kept its name and Phi Delta Pi merged into it???Naraht (talk) 09:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And had at least one active chapter until 1989 https://thekeep.eiu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1183&context=press_releases_1989 . Naraht (talk) 09:24, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Summary GLO lists on university articles
A European editor (I think) who appears interested in reducing puffery made an ad-hoc edit to the University of Pittsburgh article. I keep calling him Melkor in my minds eye, but his handle is Melchior2006. (Spelled correctly, the "i" and the "o" are in that order.) Anyway, Mel- deleted the table from the school article that listed its GLOs. Some of these were pioneers on the campus from before the Civil War.

I think he rightly noted that there were no citations, so I provided several. He asked for a "Third Opinion" and received a single response. Now, plowing through my backlog of notifications I realize he deleted the table in spite of my adding the necessary references, mistakenly claiming I didn't answer his concerns. He also puffed up the article by noting a couple of hazing incidents. I was clear on the Talk page that these organizations have had a long presence on the campus, which I elaborated by a couple of lines on the article to preface the table. I've had interactions with Mel-, previously, which lead me to believe he has a bias against Greek Letter Org inclusion, perhaps seeing only negative media coverage in the foreign press, and not understanding the popularity of these groups. Should others have an opinion on this, feel free to weigh in. I personally want to support inclusion of tables of GLOs on these university articles, until such time as a subordinate page on Greek life can be hatnoted in. Jax MN (talk) 19:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Attempting to "win" a content dispute by recruiting here is not a good use of WikiProject space per WP:CANVASS. VQuakr (talk) 20:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Others can make up their minds on what to do. No canvassing involved.  The thin response to a request for a third opinion only generated a single voice, and not enough to form a consensus.  F&S Project members have been busy with direct category articles, and I sensed they missed the one-off adjustment of the UPitt page.  While I appreciate that editor's normal efforts to reduce puffery, I do not see the need here, nor is his effort systematic. Jax MN (talk) 21:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I will take a look. Note that third opinion is just that: the response of one neutral third party. I have been active in that group from time to time. One editor, and only one editor, volunteers to respond to the situation. It is not binding but is geared toward conflict resolution. Rublamb (talk) 17:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Infobox Fraternity discussion
creating Template_talk:Infobox_fraternity as requested, please comment. Naraht (talk) 21:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Founders in Lead
I'm having a *load* of fun working on Delta Omega Epsilon with (apparently) a national president who *doesn't* get it, and (re-)learning things myself (forgot there was a coords field, need to pull some entries into there). I'm trying to put together a lead paragraph and don't feel the founders should be there, but apparently we do have GLO articles where the founders are in the lead like Delta Delta Delta. Should founders generally be pushed out of the lead paragraph and instead be first mentioned in a history section?Naraht (talk) 13:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I've seen the back and forth. Thanks for fighting this battle.  To your question, I do NOT think founders should be in the lede, with perhaps a rare exception for men or women who are absolutely entwined with the prestige (or notoriety) of the group.  William Mayo, could have been such, as a founder of Nu Sigma Nu.  And he is long deceased. In the case of Delta Omega Epsilon, there is no value in maintaining those founder names in the lede; keeping them is unduly promotional. Their names should be removed, and placed in the standard location within the history section.
 * In the case of Delta Delta Delta, Ida Shaw indeed is someone of this caliber, like Mayo, but I'd prefer that that lede sentence be recast to note her individual notability as a cross-organizational firebrand, with the listing of all of Ti-Delt's founders set out later, in the history section. Jax MN (talk) 16:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Founders should not be in the lede. The exception would be founders who are notable/generally known outside of the GLO. For example, if Eleanor Roosevelt started a sorority or the president of a university started a fraternity. Even if the founders are famous, the length of the lede needs to be balanced with the length of the ariticle. An article that reaches GA or FA status would be quite long and could have some added content, such as notable members, in the lede. (Note that I am saying "notable members", not just founders). An article that is only a few paragraphs does not need founders mentioned in both the body of the article and the lede, even if the founders have their own articles. We have previously discussd the merit/lack of merit in listing non-notable founders in these articles. With that in mind, most founders are not important enough for the lede. Rublamb (talk) 20:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It feels like these it boils down to, if the founder is notable enough for their own article, then *consider* whether they should be in the lede, if they aren't then, nope.Naraht (talk)
 * Yes. Since there are articles for founders whose only claim to fame is their fraternity/sorority association and sometimes all ten or twelve founders have an article, I think it is best to "consider" their merit rather than automatially rubber stamp these additions. But in general, we seem to prefer no founders in the lede. Sorry Betty Moo and Cindy Cow, you may not make the cut. Rublamb (talk) 01:14, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * cough*(rhymes with Delta Sigma Zeta)*cough*. Of course, that brings to mind the question of how to show it when Betty Moo marries Sam Bull. Founder is Betty (Moo) Bull?Naraht (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Critera for inclusion in lists
Does one of our list articles for GLO types such as social, LBGT, Jewish, professional, service, etc. have a stated guideline? It seems we could write this once and clone it on the TalkPages for all of these articles. I am specifically thinking about the criteria for GLOs without a Wikipedia articles, stating that a source is needed and what type of sources are allowable (not social media). Something akin to what @Jax MN has used for the notable member lists. Because many of the editors who add these redlinked groups are members of the GLO, rather than an experienced editor, it would be helpful to be able to refer them to a concise guideline. Rublamb (talk) 01:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it should in the Edit warning message like we have in Phi Gamma Delta. (Don't remember how we did it off the top of my head though)Naraht (talk) 14:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Undoing edits for 104.60.196.157
This IP user has done nothing but mark chapters of Hispanic/Latino Fraternities as inactive. It is the reason that we (reasonably) marked Tau Phi Sigma as completely inactive. (And I've found at least two chapters of Tau Phi Sigma that had rush weeks in Fall of 2022). Currently left to do (would appreciate help) Naraht (talk) 17:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * List of Lambda Theta Phi chapters
 * List of Phi Iota Alpha chapters
 * List of Lambda Sigma Upsilon chapters for this one, they removed refs and apparently just added links to lists of recognized orgs at each school. A mess.
 * Delta Xi Phi
 * List of Sigma Lambda Beta chapters

Founded date for The Order of Ammon
Right now there is *one* article that has the infobox template but not the start date and age template The Order of Ammon. Given the lack of information, I'm almost tempted to go Kappa Sigma on it and just list the date that something first that there is proof of. Naraht (talk) 15:50, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Phi Psi textiles
I think that either or  made a comment on Phi Psi (professional) in terms of activity and still being one organization and whether it had multiple chapters, but I can't find it.Naraht (talk) 15:58, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I wasn't me but I just found this which shows that NCSU is active, along with four others TBD. This source should be added to the table. Rublamb (talk) 16:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Here is a source showing that Alpha is active. Here is the source for Auburn. Rublamb (talk) 16:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * On the NCSU link, mentioned above, the text says "largest of these five active chapters." --This may be in-artful wording, and simply refer to there being five fraternity-like organizations at that same school.  Jax MN (talk) 16:50, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think so as context is provided in the prior sentence: "Phi Psi is the only national professional textile fraternity in the United States. NC State’s chapter, Eta, is the largest of these five active chapters." Why mention being national if only one local chapter exists? Also, I found two of the other four active chapters. The other two can probably be found; I will look but am in the middle of creating an article. Rublamb (talk) 17:02, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Found them. Clemson and Georgia Tech went inactive in the past five years. This is based on no longer being on the university's website (but was there recently) So, there are currently 3 active chapters. Rublamb (talk) 19:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Individual chapter pages
Over the past couple of days, Sigma Pi's Mu chapter has launched an article about that specific chapter at Cornell. I put a link to it on the F&S Project Watchlist; if you have a better suggestion, let me know. Here is the page: Sigma Pi, Mu Chapter.

I placed it under this subheader: WikiProject_Fraternities_and_Sororities/Watchlist. Thoughts? Jax MN (talk) 19:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Draft, rejected, moved to mainspace without resubmission *by* the creator. Barry Weiss referenced to wikidata and placed by creator in the page. Gerson reference *not* in Obit and overall no references anywhere outside the Cornell Sun. And in terms of the House, other than burning down when under construction, I see nothing notable. Our list of chapters of National Fraternities is more or less those that were notable prior to joining the National. I'm perfectly willing to put up for AFD.Naraht (talk) 19:34, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I started to muse about this on that new article's Talk page. To open the doors to individual chapter articles would mark a significant expansion of Project scope.  Completion would take many years.  AI-driven?  Maybe this would speed things up.  I don't have a problem with such pages, per se, in terms of notability, but these are outside of our established scope today. Does a local chapter of a national merit an article only if it hits the century mark?  Or 40 years?  Or has an historically-significant building?  Or is host to a major crisis?  Surely this inclusion rule shouldn't rest on notoriety versus more positive notability. Jax MN (talk) 19:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is some merit to the argument of "if it bleeds, it leads" determines news coverage that makes for Notability, *but* that is what we have. Having a page for every chapter (even every active chapter) horrifies me. That would be at *least* a 50 fold increase in articles. And most of our articles on the Houses are because of notability requirements that are outside the Wikiproject (almost all are NRHP). We don't even do articles for chapters of National Organizations of that are that old, we don't have one for the founding chapter of Kappa Alpha Society chapter and that was active 1825 – 2003; 2011. I'd be surprised if we had a dozen articles on chapters whose notability occurred after they joined a National. I'm going to respond on the talk page (probably rewrite it a few times to seem less bitey), but as I said, I'd be quite ready to do an AFD.Naraht (talk) 21:01, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I read your analysis on both Talk pages. Indeed, this could spark a massive increase in the number of articles under the project. A factor of 50x? It's a good estimate, if daunting... It would spark the natural impulse that drives readership and drives interest for a whole new generation of newbie editors.  What this would also do is allow us to steer Wikipedia toward a more Inclusionist tact; we could support and guide these new editors, and it would allow us to once and for all resolve the argument over what constitutes Reliable Sources for this context.  We've long argued that the lack of scholarly, citable articles, journals and reference books (aside from Baird's and Banta's) doesn't mean the groups didn't exist, or were somehow not notable.  They just perform quietly, without notoriety.  I would add, most GLO chapters are well-behaved, campus citizens, and it is clearly the fringe outliers that get into trouble.  The bias toward requiring significant sources distorts this view, far toward the negative. Even campus portal pages are dismissed by some as being too close to the subject matter, a view I reject. Jax MN (talk) 22:07, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The thing that I most agree within in what you have said is "steer Wikipedia" because while under certain circumstances Wikiprojects can add tighter rules than the entire enwiki, they can not loosen them. IMO, having the level of notability *currently* shown by this article at this time would probably allow for most campus organizations to fulfill the requirements for a wikipedia Article. And I think the enwiki's general reaction to Lsjbot, I think shows the reaction that an AI proposal would likely get.Naraht (talk) 23:12, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


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