text:
Talk:Flowchart

Flowchart and UML?
In the "creating flowcharts" section, there is a reference to UML claiming that flowcharts and UML are the same thing. It would be helpfull to newbies if the two representation methods weren't falsely linked. --213.22.238.125 23:11, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The aforementioned correction would be helpful to newbies and non-newbies: UML is definitely not the same as flowcharts, the former being a language with a rich notation, the latter a type of diagram. -- nonick 12:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree with the above, and also think that the text should mention that creating flowcharts for programs has not been found not worth the trouble in software engineering because they focus too much on how a program does something, while that is what the source code already does.

 * I have now added a paragraph to take care of all this; please review. Rp (talk) 14:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Thanks, I will take a look at it. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

 * You have added an interesting perspective. Do I read between the lines, that flow charts are no longer beeing used? -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

 * It seems to me that as UML is gaining more popularity, the flowcharts are losing ground. After all, UML claims to be U=universal. It would be nice if someone could elaborate this in the article. 212.246.67.77 (talk) 09:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Sorry, the U in "UML" stands for Unified, not universal. --EdwardEditor (talk) 03:58, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

 * From the present article text, it appears to me that flowcharts can be denoted as UML Activity diagrams; in that case UML doesn't replace them, but rather, standardizes (once more) and extends them.  In any case, the two are closely related. Rp (talk) 16:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Flowcharts "awesome" ??

 * Again in the "creating flowcharts" section, usage is made of the adjective "awesome", which looks to me as too personal an opinion to be in WikiPedia... More generally, the whole section seems a bit out of place, being more of a HowTo than an encyclopaedic article... -- nonick 12:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Tools
I don't see the point in listing general-purpose drawing software in this article. The list should be restricted to tools that feature special support for flow charts. And how does Word fit in this list anyway? It's for text, not figures! I've removed OpenOffice.org Draw, Inkscape, and Dia from the list. --EnOreg 17:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

 * How about Graphviz? 217.169.15.243 (talk) 23:05, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

 * What about it? The Graphviz article doesn't say anything about flowcharts. What support does Graphviz provide? --EnOreg (talk) 11:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I re-added Dia (general-purpose diagramming software). Dia can be used to draw many different kinds of diagrams. It currently has special objects to help draw entity relationship diagrams, UML diagrams, flowcharts, network diagrams, and many other diagrams. It is also possible to add support for new shapes by writing simple XML files, using a subset of SVG to draw the shape. Basically its focus is flowcharts. --talk (talk) 10:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Most drawing programs have these features. How does that constitute a focus on flowcharts? General-purpose drawing-programs like Dia don't have a flowchart data-model that would enable them to perform flowchart-specific transformations. They don't "understand" flowcharts — they only "see" arbitrary shapes. The fact that some of these arbitrary shapes happen to look like flowchart elements doesn't seem a good enough reason to include them in an article on flowcharts. --EnOreg (talk) 11:19, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Article section(s) removed
Due to possible violation of copyright, see WP:Copyvio, I have removed one or more section of this article for now.

I apologize for all inconvenience I have caused here, see also here. If you would like to assist in improving this article, please let me know. I can use all the help I can get. Thank you.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:05, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I appreciate your concern, but you just removed some material that I originally contributed, including information from Von Neumann's and Goldstine's book that took me considerable time to enter and quote with bibliographical reference (I borrowed the book from the library specifically for the purpose) and I'm not happy to see you erase my work just like that. At least indicate how this material supposedly violates copyrights and which source(s) it is supposed to be copying from.  Otherwise I'll just revert your deletion. Rp (talk) 16:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

 * You can just put your own contributions back. However if you choose to refert mine as well you can be held responsable for the copyvio's I might have created. This is serious business. I am sorry I can't go into more details right now, because I have other priorities, see also here.

 * An other possiblity is that you check all text you put back with the original sources, and rewrite some of it. Than this initial copyvio problem will be solved here, which would be great. If you have further questions place let me know. Again I am sorry. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 16:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

 * P.S. Uiteindelijk zal ik hier binnenkort ook terugkeren en wil ik mijn fouten best herstellen, maar dat kan nog even duren zogezegd. Hierbij zal ik uiteraard jouw bijdragen ook herstellen.

 * This is the wrong approach. You can't lock this article, it will be modified in the meantime, and my work (and that of others) will be lost.  The computer science articles are poor enough as it is, I don't need to see my attempts at improvements deleted for no good reason at all.  I don't have time to carefully recreate my stuff whenever a madman comes around.  Come to your senses and revert the damage you've already done.  There is no copyvio problem with this article in the first place.  Rp (talk) 17:02, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

This article is not locked. You can restore your edit, whenever you like. Your contribution is not lost, and I can promise you I will restore it myself before the end of this week, if this is ok with you. I also added some details at the talk:diagram article. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 17:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I will double check the sections I removed here now, and will respond soon. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 17:22, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Ok. The reason why I removed those sections is because of this edit 9 January 2009. There is the whole new about types of flowcharts based on two new sources. The mistake I generally made in all of those 100+ articles is that I didn't use quotation marks and or rewrote the original source. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 17:33, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Please wait, there is more... -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 17:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Ok. Here is some more:
 * It have just removed two sections "history" and "types of flowchart"
 * It seems I have only created the second section
 * So I don't see any problem if you restore the history section you wrote. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 17:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Marcel, you can't just go in and delete sections without even explaining in detail why you think they are copied from somewhere. You need to discuss this properly before deleting anything. I've reverted the sections back in. --EnOreg (talk) 07:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Hi EnOreg, the discussion about this started here on my talkpage, I gave a summary here at the Wikiproject systems, and I have been following the leads or at least I am trying of three mods given on my talkpage and specifically here at the WikiProject Copyright Cleanup. I have just asked for new feed back here to set new priorities. You could say the problems I have cause could be considered huge, and I am urged to take rather dramatic measures. I have edited over 6500+ articles in Wikipedia and created or improved bigger parts in over 250+ articles. The temporary deletion of sections to isolation of the copyvio problems is just the first step. I did so in over 200+ articles now.

 * You could help just checking the way the 3 to 5 sources are/were used here in the removed text, especially the quotations. This is the way to solve this problem here and in the other articles. Again I apologize for all these troubles. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 07:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Mdd wants to remove information he added on 9 January 2009, Here is the diff of those changes. As far as I can see there were was an additional paragraph inserted at the start of the Overview section and another complete section called "Types of flow charts". Doing a diff between Mdd's second edit on 9 January and today gives these differences. The overview section is gone so that is not a problem. The second section though "Types of flowcharts" has only minor modifications. So I suggest that if Mdd thinks it necessary to remove that section for possible copyright violations he should do so. Mdd you have also contributed other substantial edits to this article 2009-09-15 2008-10-02 (but this second one seems to be just a rearrangement). -- PBS (talk) 09:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I think a more practical way to go about this is for Mdd to attribute the passages in question with ref tags, without making any further changes yet. Then others (who now know what to compare the text with) can help out with the cleanup, turning paraphrases into literal quotes or rewriting them where desired.  Rp (talk) 10:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Ref tags are not enough. The inclusion of copyright material marked by just reg tags is not within Wikipedia policy see Non-free content. If the section is removed it is still available in the history of the article. But if the section is removed and an editor reverts that edit knowing that it has been deleted for copyright violations and they re-introduce the text without checking that it is not in violation then they are in breach of the Non-free content policy. --PBS (talk) 11:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

 * OK I've put in links to Google books, and from what I can see the first paragraph needs re-writing and the quotes need to be extended on the last quote to cover a few more words. I suggest that for the first paragraph something like this: "Sterneckert (2003) suggested that flowcharts can be modelled from the perspective of different user groups (such as managers, system analysts and clerks) and that there are four general types: [bullet points as currently in the Wiki article.]"
 * --PBS (talk) 12:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Having provided the links to the pages for checking, I had hoped that one of the regular editors would have removed the obvious copyright violations from the section, I have now done so as no one else has. -- PBS (talk) 21:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Thanks PBS. I made some additional edits in the text to stipulate an essence I missed last time. -- Mdd (talk) 01:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Some background info
Maybe I can give a little background info here. As far as I have analysed just now, I made the following contributions to this article (beside all edits I undid): The Jan 8, 2008 edit was my first involvement with this article. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * With my 9 January 2009 edit I added the "section about different types of flow charts"
 * Now if you look at the further changes until the last edit before I removed the section, see here, none of that section changed eversince. It was still in the shape I created it 10 months ago...!?
 * At 18 November 2008, see here I made some minor rearrangements
 * My 2 October 2008 edit is what I call wikification: just a rearranging as PBS already suggested. (Just for the record I wikified 2000+ articles here at the English Wiipedia and 1000+ articles at the Dutch Wikipedia)
 * At 31 July 2008, see here, I added a new quote + reference... which should be checked also
 * At 24 June 2008, see here a minor wikification
 * At 8 January 2008, see here I copied a section here from the Business Process Mapping, which I believe is properly adjusted in the editsummary.
 * Is there anything wrong with those edits? I can't see any problem. Rp (talk) 21:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I will give my assessment of these edits. Three out of those six could be problematic:
 * First: The 8 January 2008 edit is a copy/paste within Wikipedia which should be properly addressed according to GFDL rules. It did address the source in the edit summary, but I am still not sure if this registration is good enough.
 * Second: The 31 July 2008 edit is a copy/paste from:
 * "a graphical representation of a process or the step-by-step solution of a problem, using suitably annotated geometric figures connected by flowlines for the purpose of designing or documenting a process or program. (ISO/IEC 2382-1:1993 Information technology--Vocabulary--Part 1: Fundamental terms, 01.05.06)"
 * Source: Lemma flowchart in: Computer Society Software and Systems Engineering Vocabulary. Accessed Oct 15, 2009.
 * The two things didn't seem ok here: I didn't use quotation marks, and I probably should have registered the original source "the ISO/IEC 2382-1:1993"...!?
 * In the meantime this quote has been rewriten somewhere in the last 390+ intermediate revisions, see here... but the original source is still in place.

 * Third: With the 9 January 2009 edit I cited two sources, which have not been rewritten eversince, see here. I checked the first source, see here, and it seems I didn't copy/paste but made a summary here from that text. The next two sources cited seems to insignificant to be any problem.

Just for the record: More general the kind of copyvio problems, I have created here en masse, relate to: Based on this assessment, I don't think this is ok now. These are some of the things I want to discuss first.. and double-check. I do want to improve my performance here. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 00:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) the registration of copy/paste within Wikipedia
 * 2) and the use of quotation marks and/or
 * 3) the need to rewrite secondary sources that are copy/pasted here

Copy-paste registration

 * In this edit two sections are copy/paste here from the Business Process Mapping article. -- Mdd (talk) 01:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Types of flowcharts
I still think the article doesn't give a good overview of the different types of flowcharts. Several actions have been taken here:
 * June 2008 this subject is already mentioned here ago, see here
 * In July 2008 I started a Wikicommons gallery Flow chart gallery, which has been developed some more ever since.
 * Wikicommons is also offering a gallery on Flow diagrams
 * In Jan 2009 I added a section (see here) about the different types of flowcharts.

Despite these efforts I still think there is not a sufficient explanation about what types exist, their characteristics and their differences!? -- Mdd (talk) 13:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Overview section restored
I restored the overview section (see here) which was removed some time ago here. That section seems like a good general introduction to me. -- Mdd (talk) 13:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Removed "loop and a half"
I've removed the text about the example showing a "loop and a half", because it doesn't!

The text was added over five years ago, but as far as I can tell the diagram hasn't changed.

Loop and a half would describe an outer loop that allowed repeated factorial calculations, if the READ block needed to be duplicated. This situation is shown here.

I actually came to this page after googling for a flowchart of a simple loop and the "loop and a half" comment just confused what was otherwise a straightforward example.

Zaq 42 (talk) 05:00, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Why I'll never donate to wikipedia
In a nutshell this whole edit war 24.162.243.254 (talk) 16:54, 24 February 2012 (UTC) about an inoccuous external link that lets someone create flowcharts is why wikipedia is just... wrong. You get these little tin dictators that just love the feeling of power they have. Then there are the anarchists who just want to exchange knowledge and information. Ah, you petty dictators. It must drive you crazy when you're forced to think. Wouldn't life be easier if things could just stay the same, constant, forever? Wouldn't it be great if people just stopped making changes to your perfect pages?

So a person adds a link. Verboten! Remove it, cite specious reasons. Person adds the link back. So another partner in the petty power trip steps in and removes the link, citing different specious reasons.. Person agrees with specious reasons, and deletes a few more links.

Get a freaking life, you pathetic petty tyrants. Being lord and master over some number of Wikipedia pages does not make you powerful.
 * Please have a look at External links, which is a useful guideline. I just now clicked on the offered link and got a fairly uninformative page with some kind of edit window on it and nothing I could identify as a "flow chart maker". External links should be something that help explain the subject of the article, and should not be just pointers to some scratchpad that is only incidentally related. There would have been a slightly better arguement to keeping this link if it had pointed at a page that worked. This page doesn't even produce flow charts. Its utility to the article reader is non-existent. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That's odd, it just worked for me. Are you using internet explorer? IE doesn't support svg. Perhaps you should complain to microsoft? Or perhaps try clicking on the "Save as png" link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.210.244.67 (talk) 20:22, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Just worked for me too. Maybe the OP ought to calm down a bit though... 98.189.5.170 (talk) 22:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Using Flowchart in DIN 66001 is missing
please see also http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmablaufplan --77.25.105.57 (talk) 19:46, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess, we are more into ISO here. -- Mdd (talk) 23:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Flaw chart
David Gries mentions flowcharts in his 1981 book The Science of Programming, but calls them "flaw charts", perhaps as a tongue-in-cheek way of expressing his dislike for them. (Bashing flowcharts and other 1960s-era programming styles was in vogue at the time, during the rise of structured programming.) I have never seen the term used anywhere else, or by anyone else, though. — Loadmaster (talk) 20:50, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Flowchart


text:
Felt Mountain

Felt Mountain is the debut studio album by English electronic music duo Goldfrapp. It was released on 11 September 2000 by Mute Records. The album takes influence from a variety of music styles such as 1960s pop, cabaret, folk and electronica.

Felt Mountain was generally well received by music critics, and was described as "simultaneously smarmy and seductive, yet elegant and graceful". It peaked at number 57 on the UK Albums Chart, and was certified gold by the British Phonographic Industry (BPI) in October 2001. In 2001, the album was shortlisted for the Mercury Prize, an annual music prize awarded for the best British or Irish album from the previous year.

Recording and production
Goldfrapp signed a recording contract with London-based record label Mute Records in August 1999. The pair began recording their debut album over a six-month period, beginning in September 1999, in a rented bungalow in the Wiltshire countryside. The recording process was difficult for Alison Goldfrapp, who was often alone and disturbed by the mice and insects in the bungalow. Gregory described their recording sessions as intense because he was unaccustomed to composing with others. Goldfrapp contributed the album's lyrics, and Gregory and Goldfrapp composed the music together. The lyrics are abstract obsessional tales inspired by science fiction, films, Goldfrapp's childhood, and the loneliness she felt while recording the album. Musically, the album takes influence from a variety of styles including 1960s pop, cabaret, folk, and electronica.

Songs
"Lovely Head", Felt Mountain's opening track, features high lonesome whistling and heavily processed vocals. The song was described as influenced by Shirley Bassey and released as the album's lead single. The second track, "Paper Bag", is about being obsessed with someone and not being able to have them. It is followed by the third single "Human", a track with a mambo-style beat. The fourth song, "Pilots", which describes travellers floating in the atmosphere above the earth, was inspired by John Barry's James Bond theme songs. A remixed version of the song was released as a single in the United Kingdom, reaching number 68 on the UK Singles Chart.

The ballad "Deer Stop" features childlike vocals and sexually suggestive lyrics. The title track was influenced by Goldfrapp's "idea of a wolf being whipped in this little Tudor house overlooking a snowy landscape". "Oompa Radar", the seventh track, was inspired by Roman Polanski's 1966 film Cul-de-Sac. The cabaret-influenced song uses a flugelhorn and a cuckoo clock to switch between tempos. "Utopia" was released as the album's second single. The album closes with "Horse Tears", a minimalist piano ballad with filtered vocals.

Critical reception
The album received critical acclaim. AllMusic reviewer Heather Phares referred to the album as a "strange and beautiful mix of the romantic, eerie, and world-weary" and named it "one of 2000's most impressive debuts". Eric Wittmershaus of Flak Magazine called Felt Mountain "an enchanting, accessible debut", citing "Human" and "Deer Stop" as its best songs. In a review for Pitchfork, Matt LeMay described the album as "elegant and graceful", but felt that the "songs aren't all that different from one another." Sacha Esterson of musicOMH compared Felt Mountain to Portishead and wrote that it could be a "contender for the year's best album". Yahoo! Music's Ken Micallef commented that the duo "make elegiac music as elegant as 'Diamonds Are Forever' and as haunting as Bobbie Gentry's 'Ode to Billie Joe'", concluding that the album's "dark night of the soul is mostly bleak, beautiful, and deliciously bizarre." Andrew Lynch of entertainment.ie noted that "[a]lthough at times it feel [sic] a little contrived, for the most part this is stylishly decadent music that should appeal to all fans of film noir." NME viewed the album as "cold, desolate and old-fashioned" and argued that Felt Mountain was not a "bad concept" except that "Portishead got there first, and managed to update the spy-film vibe with a hefty dose of break-driven twilight melancholia."

Q included the album on its list of the top 50 albums of 2000. The following year, Felt Mountain was shortlisted for the Mercury Prize, an annual music prize awarded for the best British or Irish album from the previous year. In 2006, the album was included in Robert Dimery's book 1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die. In November 2009, The Times ranked Felt Mountain at number 16 on its list of the 100 best pop albums of the 2000s. The album was placed at number 94 on Slant Magazine's list of the best albums of the 2000s.

Commercial performance
Felt Mountain debuted at number 144 on the UK Albums Chart, selling 914 copies in its first week. In September 2001, the album peaked at number 57, and had sold 177,096 copies by August 2005. Felt Mountain was certified gold by the British Phonographic Industry (BPI) on 12 October 2001. In France, the album reached number 48, and remained on the albums chart for 11 weeks. It reached the top 40 in Germany and the top 50 in Australia and Austria. Despite not appearing on any major charts in North America, Felt Mountain had sold 52,000 copies in the United States as of August 2006. As of April 2003, the album had sold 500,000 copies worldwide.

Personnel
Credits adapted from the liner notes of Felt Mountain.

Goldfrapp

 * Alison Goldfrapp – vocals, whistling, keyboards
 * Will Gregory – keyboards, string arrangements, brass arrangements

Additional musicians

 * Stuart Gordon – violin, viola (tracks 1, 9); tremolo violins (track 6); violin solo (track 9)
 * Adrian Utley – bass guitar (tracks 1, 4); synth, tremolo bass guitar (track 2)
 * Nick Batt – bass synth (track 1); metal percussion (track 3); additional programming (tracks 1, 3, 4, 8)
 * John Parish – drums (tracks 1, 2, 9); bass guitar, tremolo guitar (track 9)
 * Alexander Bălănescu – violin (tracks 2, 5, 8)
 * Sonia Slany – violin (tracks 2–5, 8)
 * Nick Barr – viola (tracks 2, 5, 8)
 * Nick Cooper – cello (tracks 2–5, 8)
 * Mary Scully – double bass (tracks 2, 5, 8)
 * Andy Davis – baritone ukulele, melodica, koto (track 2)
 * Mute Male Voices – humming (track 2)
 * Jacqueline Norrie – violin (tracks 3, 4)
 * Bill Hawkes – viola (tracks 3, 4)
 * Rowan Oliver – percussion (tracks 3, 4)
 * Andy Bush – trumpet (track 3); flugelhorn solo (track 7)
 * Ben Waghorn – tenor saxophone (track 3)
 * John Cornick – trombone (track 3)
 * Clive Deamer – brushes (track 4)
 * Steve MacAllister – French horn (track 6)
 * Steven Claydon – synth (track 6, 8)
 * Flowers Band – brass band (track 7)
 * Tony Orrell – drums (tracks 7, 8)
 * Luke Gordon – additional programming (tracks 3, 4)
 * Chris Weston – additional programming (track 8)

Technical

 * Will Gregory – production
 * Alison Goldfrapp – production
 * Dave Bascombe – additional mixing (track 8)
 * Nick Batt – additional mixing (track 3); additional engineering (all tracks)
 * Kevin Paul – additional mixing (tracks 2, 5); additional engineering (all tracks)
 * Luke Gordon – additional engineering
 * David Lord – additional engineering
 * John Dent – mastering

Artwork

 * Alison Goldfrapp – sleeve design
 * Joe Dilworth – inside photo of Will Gregory, cover photo
 * Anna Fox – inside photo of Alison Goldfrapp
 * C. L. Schmidt – landscape photography
 * Günter Gräfenhain – landscape photography

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Felt Mountain


text:
User talk:Mattlach

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! - UtherSRG 13:42, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:Mattlach