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Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive 2

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Please add new archivals to Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive08. Thank you. Bratsche talk random 22:03, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Is it unproteced yet? Because I still see the notice on this page, but about a minute ago I tried clicked the "edit this page" button which was still available and it took me to the edit page. I did not try to submit my edit because I had nothing useful to contribute. 68.126.102.143 22:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The article is unprotected. Either everyone edits, or no one edits. That's what a protected page is. Administrators are expected to respect protection and not edit pages when they are protected. - Nunh-huh 22:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

PR Commentary
From a estrategical and PR point of view, the election of Ratzinger as pope is a huge mistake. Choosing a pope that is fairly easy to attack (being a nazi and all) WILL make protestant churges grow to an historical number of followers around the globe. No wonder some people say that the Holy Spirit does not read the news. 200.31.163.246 22:07, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * This is not a discussion page on the Pope. You might easily find discussion boards to voice your opinion. --Maxl 22:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Editorializing about early life
Someone keeps reverting/vandalizing the early life section to include elaborate apologies in every clause concerning Nazism. None of these disclaimers ("forced to", "staunchly anti-Nazi", "everyone else did it", "just following orders", "he didn't want to", etc) is given any evidentiary support. Can we please restore this to a neutral POV description?! (e.g. the below) Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 22:23, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Joseph Ratzinger was born in Marktl am Inn, in Bavaria, the son of a police officer. In 1937 Ratzinger's father retired and settled in the town of Traunstein. When Ratzinger turned 14 in 1941, following German law of the time, he joined the Hitler Youth,. According to biographer John Allen, Ratzinger was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend any meetings. In 1943, at the age of 16 he was, along with the rest of his class, drafted into the Flak or anti-aircraft corps, responsible for the guarding of a BMW plant outside Munich. He was then sent for basic infantry training and was posted to Hungary, where he worked setting up anti-tank defences until deserting in April 1945.

 * Being protected I was unable to make this edit, so I'll put it up for review here (info obtained here, Google cache) — Morning star 23:06, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC):
 * Related forum. –Morning star 01:31, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Your source is ratzingerfanclub.com... Talk about POV! Can we get verification on these statements that are a little more objective? 24.18.46.58 23:47, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Not sure why User:KTC just deleted my comment, so I'm reposting it. 24.18.46.58 00:22, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Joseph Ratzinger was born in Marktl am Inn, in Bavaria, the son of a police officer. In 1937 Ratzinger's father retired and settled in the town of Traunstein. When Ratzinger turned 14 in 1941, he joined the Hitler Youth. According to biographer John Allen, Ratzinger was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend any meetings. In 1943, at the age of 16, he was (along with the rest of his class) drafted into the Flak corps. The anti-aircraft corps was responsible for defending a BMW plant outside Munich.  In September of 1944 he was discharged from the Flak and returned home, but was then drafted into labor detail for the Austrian Legion. In November he underwent basic training with the German infantry and was posted to Hungary, where he worked setting up anti-tank defences until deserting in April 1945.  He went home to Traunstein where he was identified as a German soldier by the Americans occupying his village (using the Ratzinger house as their headquarters) and incarcerated in a POW camp where he attended de-Nazification classes.

 * On June 19, 1945 he was released, and he and his brother (Georg) entered a Catholic seminary in November.

 * There's obviously nothing wronb with including the background situation of Germany and the German military at the time, but there remains the distinct possibility that these details, such as the words "loyally served" and the fact that he finally desereted at the time when "continued service was ostensibly futile" and that the punishment by death was effectively mitigated, while not in the least factually untrue, may be taken by some as putting the emphasis on his Nazi loyalty and lack of opposition. How "loyally" he served can only be determined by the concrete details, which we do not see, and may even be POV. Moreover we ought to give some general measure of statistics to say what percent of deserters were prosecuted before the American/Allied takeover. Are these details given on every figure from his generation who served the Nazi regime? Possibly, possibly not...And "forced to" is not necessary incorrect, as he may indeed have felt a pressure to serve or die--surely history experts could corroborate. Additionally, none of his own sentiments on Nazism or his period of service are included. How neutral is that? ~ Dpr 01:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The above is not quite editorializing.

- Soon after joining the Hitler Youth when it was made mandatory in 1941, he writes in his book, "The Salt of the Earth," he was let out because of his intention to study for the priesthood.

- His decision to leave his army unit just after he turned military age could have cost Ratzinger his life. He knew that SS units would shoot a deserter on the spot or be hung as a message to others. He was stopped by other soldiers he recalled in his book, "Aus meinem Leben," published in English as "Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977."

"Thank God they were ones who had had enough of war and did not want to become murderers."

"They had to find a reason to let me go. I had my arm in a sling because of an injury."

"Comrade, you are wounded," they told him. "Go on."

After he returned home, the Americans arrived -- and set up their headquarters in his parents 18th century farmhouse on the outskirts of the town.

They identified him as a German soldier, made him put on his uniform, put up his hands, and marched him off to join other prisoners kept in a nearby meadow. Taken to a camp near Ulm.

He was released June 19 and hitched a ride on a milk truck back to Traunstein.

First German Pope since 1523
Benedict XVI actually ís the first German Pope since 1523 and not since the 11th century. The last German pope was Adrian VI from 1522 to 1523. Certainly he also was the first (and so far only) Dutch pope but at the time the Netherlands were German provinces. So it is perfectly correct to also call him the last German pope until Benedict XVI. For Reference on Dutch history please read History of the Netherlands. --Maxl 22:07, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) The Netherlands became independant in 1648, long after the pontificate of Adrian VI.

 * Also, note that Dutch people were considered part of the German people at that time. They spoke Low German (which evolved into Dutch). Adrian's ancestor's also were from what is modern Germany (that is, the state founded 1871).

 * As I said in the archived section, I accept all the facts shown above. But for the benefit of all those that will read B. XVI's page and who most assuredly not look into the details of which control controlled the Netherlands in the 16 century, and to those who will most certainly will think of nationality based on modern day borders, I think we should classify Adrian VI and Victor II in terms of their birth place in relation to modern day borders.

 * No! This is ridiculous. Adrian was as German as any other German. Please stop this petty war. Also, the concept of "German" is described when you click on German.

 * It's not about today's borders but about those when the respecitve popes lived. Adrian was Dutch as well as Geman so please accept this. And please add your signature. --Maxl 22:21, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * He was both German and Dutch. He was not "Dutch of German descent". As RATZINGER is not Dutch, however, the Dutch nationality of Adrian is far less relevant. What is relevant is that Adrian was the last GERMAN Pope.

 * Correct! It seems that some Americans who are around here and do not have much knowledge about European history are trying to imppse their incorrect knowledge on us. --Maxl 22:55, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Let's keep the tone more polite, please. Comment on content, not on the contributor. WP:No personal attacks. Chris vLS

 * Sorry, but I start having an impression that there are some people around here with an anti-German attitude who, at all expenses, want Adrian not to be a German pope. What else reason could they have to fight this so hard? Else, I know Americans can be quite patronizing and thinking they're the center of the universe. --Maxl 23:28, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * N.B.: This was not considered an insult but it's a matter of experience. --Maxl 23:32, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Utrecht in 1459 was certainly part of the Holy Roman Empire, and part of the Kingdom of Germany. That said, so was Lorraine, now part of France, which has always been French speaking. Would a Lorrainer pope of this period be considered "German"? I think that would be questionable. Furthermore, Utrecht at that time was deeply under the political influence of the Dukes of Burgundy, the French princely house that ruled over much of the Low Countries in this period.  In fact, a Burgundian was the Prince-Bishop at the time of Adrian's birth.  Adrian's protege, Charles V, would virtually separate the entirety of the Netherlands from the rest of the Empire administratively, although it remained technically a part. I think it's worth mentioning both Adrian and Victor, and note that Victor was the last pope from what is now Germany. john k 22:22, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * The prince-bishop in 1459 was not only a Burgundian, he was the illegitimate son of Philip the Good, BTW.
 * It was technically or whatsoever a part of Germany at the time therefore Adrian was a German as well as a Dutch!!! He was the last pope from Germany and not Victor!!
 * Would someone born in the Austrian Netherlands in 1793 be considered German, as well? Would Czechs from Bohemia?  The Holy Roman Empire was not a national state. john k 22:29, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Contrary to French-speaking people, the Dutch people were German-speaking and part of the German people.

 * The way the page words it now (22.24 GMT) is acceptable to me. As long as it mentions "German descent" I've got no problem with it, though you can still make a case of what John Kenney just said. -- DanG

 * "German descent" is unacceptable. He was as German as any other German.

This is absurd. It is not your right to say what is acceptable and unacceptable, and the exclamation marks don't strengthen your case. I am happy to say that Adrian VI was a German pope, but I don't see why we can't also say that Victor II was the last pope from what is now Germany. This is useful and indisputably true information. john k 22:29, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't know to whom you are talking. The comment with the exclamations was not by be. Anon.

 * Ok, it can be put that way but nevertheless Adrian VI was the last German pope because at the time of his pontificate the Netherlands were German provinces (even though they were fighting for their independence) and Adrian therefore was a German citizen. Why can't we agree that he was a German pope as well as a Dutch? --Maxl 22:33, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with John, a lot of people reading this page have likely heard the media reports say that Victor was the last German pope, and they might be scratching their head about this (or worse, they might assume that Wikipedia is plain wrong). I agree that Adrian is the previous German person to be pope, but mentioning Victor as well makes perfect sense. Perhaps it can be put in a footnote? Put a footnote next to the original mention of Adrian, and at the very bottom explain why Adrian is considered German, and why some consider Victor to be the last German pope due to modern political borders. -Eisnel 22:38, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I propose this compromise. Sometimes you have to be wordy to be clear:  "...At 78 years of age, he is the oldest pope elected in 275 years.  He is the 8th German Pope in history and is the first Pontiff of German descent since Adrian VI (1522-1523).  Adrian VI lived in what is now the Netherlands, but it was part of Germany during his life. Victor II was the last pope from what is now Germany." Johntex 22:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I might throw in how some German sources solved the problem: They refered to Adrian as the first pope from the Netherlands and the last pope from Germany. I think it is a rather nice compromise. -- AlexR 22:51, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Not acceptable. As I wrote before, the Netherlands were a conglomerate of German provinces at the time. Therefore Adrian was German not only by descendante but also by citizenship. By the way, it seems that a few of may posts here have been deleted. I think that' unfair. I don't delete posts here, so please do not delete mine!!! --Maxl 22:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I do think both sides have some merit to their arguments. Adrian was German, but did not live in present-day Germany. This shouldn't be an impossible concept to convey. Another compromise proposal:
 * At 78 years of age, he is the oldest pope elected in 275 years, and the first German pontiff since Adrian VI (1522–1523), who lived in present-day Netherlands, at the time considered German (alternatively: part of Germany). / Alarm 23:03, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Netherlands become independent in 1648 during the Peace of Westphalia. As far as I know, before, that area was part of the Holy Roman Empire, a precursor of what today is Germany. In those days in what is today Northern Germany the people spoke Low German, a language very related to Dutch today but hard to understand for Germans today. Martin Luther's bible was written in High German and therefore that language spread in what is today northern Germany, too, but not in the Netherlands. I don't know, but I don't think that in those days the concept of "Dutch" and "German" in our understanding already existed. By the way: I'm living in Münster, where Ratzinger lived, too. Not far from dutch border. Stern 23:18, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The BBC says: He is the first German Pope since the 11th Century. Yann

 * The BBC doesn't seem to be well informed. Listen to the German media and you'll know what really is the matter. --Maxl 23:23, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

By the way: The english word "dutch" was created, when Low German speaking people lived both in what is today the Netherlands and Northern Germany. The german word "deutsch" (= german) is very related to that word and has the same origin. Stern 23:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

t seems odd to me to be calling Adrian VI 'German'. His given name, and his birthplace, and the university where he taught, are obviously Dutch. It is probable that he spoke Dutch rather than the High German dialect that has become modern German. So, linguistically, he spoke a language in common with the ethnically distinct Dutch and Flemish (who were, during the years of his papacy, fighting against the Hapsburgs to be INDEPENDENT of the Holy Roman Empire. In addition, the Holy Roman Empire does not mean "Germany", and it never did. Yes, it historically encompassed mainly German-speaking regions, but it also included Bohemia and Northern Italy for most of its existence, as well as various parts of France from Burgundy to Alsace.  And even if the Holy Roman Empire WERE simply "Germany", it doesn't work. alling Utrecht "German" because it was included within the Holy Roman Empire is like calling Warsaw or Riga "Russian" because they were within the Russian and Soviet Empires at one point.  Similarly, I think calling Adrian VI "German" because he is from a province province that was under the jurisdiction of a large political unit which was (very, very loosely) identified with "Germany" is like calling Josip Tito "Austrian" because he was born in Croatia which was then territory of Austria-Hungary, or calling Peter Paul Rubens "Spanish" because he was a Flemish-speaking artist who lived in the area of modern Belgium controlled by Spain. All of these things are ridiculous. One might as well start calling Erasmus German, and Bosch. BUT: I do say this without researching Adrian VI's ancestry, so if his parents migragrated from Germany, he may be German indeed. Yet it seems that the arguments above rest solely on the fact that Utrecht and the other Dutch cities were politically part of the Holy Roman Empire.

---

According to Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung is Ratzinger the first German to be Pope for 482 years. Is FAZ not a very reliable newspaper?

"Damit wurde zum ersten Mal seit 482 Jahren wieder ein Deutscher zum Oberhaupt der römisch-katholischen Kirche gewählt." (from the front page of FAZ, http://www.faz.de )

 * His given name, and his birthplace, and the university where he taught, are obviously Dutch. It is probable that he spoke Dutch rather than the High German dialect that has become modern German.  - He spoke the Low German dialect, which was then considered not less German than the High German dialect that dominates modern German now. Modern Dutch developed from Low German (there are also still similar dialects in today's Northern Germany, "Plattdeutsch"), but at his time, he was surely not less German than Martin Luther from Saxony-Wittenberg. Gestumblindi 00:04, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

To call someone "German" just because he was born in an independent bishopric (Utrecht) in principle part of the Holy Roman Empire (in principle only!) and because the language spoken in Utrecht was a dialect of Lower German which would soon become the Dutch language is about as absurd as saying that a Paris born 2nd century pope was Italian because Paris was then part of the Roman Empire, and the language spoken in Paris was a sort of vulgar Latin that would later evolve into French. The concept of German ethnicity used here sounds extremely similar to the Third Reich concepts of German ethnicity, and that's rather scary! Hardouin 00:16, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The Netherlands at Adrian's time had the same language and cultural background as the rest of Northern Germany. They were not less "German" than the areas a bit farther to the east that are part of modern Germany. I don't think that your analogy is really fitting. More fitting would be Immanuel Kant, who is still considered a German philosopher, although he lived in a city that belongs now to Russia - but this city, Königsberg, was considered German, and not only politically, at his time. Similarly, the Netherlands were one of many parts of the German culture area, consisting of lots of small states. Gestumblindi 00:36, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In the 2nd century AD, Gaul had the same language and cultural background as Italy, and nonetheless nobody in their right mind would call a 2nd century inhabitant of Paris an "Italian". So my comparison is particularly well fitted. I suggest you also read "Let's hear what the Dutch have to say about it" below. Besides, your point about Immanuel Kant precisely defeats your argument, because you should know that Königsberg was not part of the Holy Roman Empire, which proves that being German is not equal to being an inhabitant of the Holy Roman Empire, and vice versa. Hardouin 01:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Hardouin, what is your goal here? Just trolling? Why do you want to deny that a German person was German?

A couple of absurdities to dispel. Firstly, the Dutch were certainly not fighting for their independence in 1522-1523. Secondly, the Dutch never fought for independence from "Germany." They fought for independence from Spain. However, the Holy Roman Empire is not synonymous with Germany. The Netherlandish parts of it, in particular, were rather distinct, being under the domination of the French House of Burgundy at the time of Adrian's birth, and remained, as of the time of his papacy's beginning, rather distinct from "Germany" proper. To say that the Netherlands were "part of Germany" at the time of Adrian is incorrect - there was not really such a state as "Germany." That said, to say that he was "considered German" at the time seems to me to be fine, although I'm not sure that's quite accurate. At the same time, I think we can very easily also say that Victor II was the last pope from the area of the modern country of Germany. To those advocating simply calling Adrian VI "German," I want to ask again how far this goes. Would French-speakers from, say, Lorraine or Hainault also be considered Germans under this model? What about Czechs or Poles from the lands of the Bohemian crown? Sorbs? An Italian from the Bishopric of Trent? Slovenes from Carniola? john k 02:10, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

BTW, Tito was surely a Hungarian. ;) john k 02:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Latin Baptismal Name
Question, do you think it will have any use in this article? I also like to thank Bratsche for archiving this page too. Zscout370 22:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

why is the page protected? Adam 22:16, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Zscout, I don't think that the latin baptismal will be of any use, since it is pretty similar to his German name anyway. I'm going to take it out. Adam, I believe the admins that protected this page wanted to clean up the mess that the flurry of edits after the announcement of Benedict's election made. At one point, the article was duplicated (in sections) about three times throughout the article. I don't know if I agree with this reasoning, but it's now free to edit. Hope this helps, Bratsche talk  random 23:50, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Hitler Youth reference
This needs to be rephrased to be more accurate, i.e., "he joined the Hitler Youth, as was required under German law of that time." Whig 22:17, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Was it literally required, or just "strongly encouraged?" The Hitler Youth page doesn't say. El Mariachi
 * It was required. Anybody not joining had to face major trouble. --Maxl 22:23, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * There was a law since 1936 that said every child had to join, and indeed, resisting could get you into trouble. If his father was indeed known as anti-nazi, the boys not joining the HJ could have put their father into the KZ - things like this happened. So, yes, if you were really couragous, you didn't turn up, but well - not everybody, especially at 14 (or rather 10, as you were supposed to join the "Jungvolk"), is that couragous. -- AlexR 22:51, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Someone who was there doesn't seem to think so: "Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”"

140.107.71.148 22:44, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, obviously that shows, that those not joining had to face major trouble. He was 14 as he had to join the Hitler Youth. Does someone expect a 14 year old teenager to resist gloriously? I think it's not too far fetched to assume that Mrs. Lohner's brother-in-law might have been a bit older. Gugganij 00:43, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Either way, and however it needs to be properly phrased, the current wording is just wrong.
 * What trouble was that, specifically? Or more specifically still, shouldn't we neutrally present the fact that Ratzinger joined rather than "facing major trouble." A choice is a choice, after all... and religious figures have occassionally made choices despite "facing major trouble" for them.  I've certainly seen no evidence that he was literally, physically forced to joinLulu of the Lotus-Eaters 22:37, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Also, is there a source for the statement that his father was "staunchly anti-Nazi"? Whig 22:30, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Presumably this is discussed in the biography which is refered to in the text. Someone who has read it should comment. Adam 22:39, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Even if a POV is given by the biographer, it needs to be specifically attributed to that biographer, and balanced against alternate credible sources which may exist. Whig 22:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It has been reported that he was drafted at the age of 14 years of age and later fled and surrendered to the Americans. FroggyMoore 22:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also... "When Ratzinger turned 14 in 1941, he was forced to join the Hitler Youth, as all young men were required to do throughout World War II." makes it sound that all men regardless of nationality around the world were required to join the Hitler Youth. Perhaps changing it to "German young men". --208.253.80.123 22:51, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)-James

Or all young men of allegedly Germanic descent within the reach of the Third Reich at the time. --Maxl 23:15, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just throwing this in case this boils up again: There was a law effective from 1.December 1936 making membership in the Hitler Youth compulsory, this was elaborated in another law from 25. März 1939. Don't be confused by the term "Hitlerjugend" (Hitler youth). This term refers to both the HJ which was the organisation for boys from 14-18, and the whole set of youth organisations, which also included "Deutsches Jungvolk" (boys 10-14), "Jungmädelbund" (girls 10-14), and "Bund Deutscher Mädel" (girls 14-18). In other words, Ratzinger became a member at age 10, not 14 - hardly the age to make any grave decisions. -- AlexR 03:02, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What is going on?
I get a "page protected" message but I can see that others are editing the page. Adam 22:34, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't know, I see the page as protected as well. I guess it was protected just a few minutes ago. However, since it's not listed in the Protected Page, I really have no idea why it's protected. -- KTC 22:39, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Adam, I know you asked this many times. Here is my reply: Only the admins are editing it, since this page has a high rate of vandalism. Once that threat is gone away, then we can try to make our edits. I know there are some things I have done to the page that got wiped out, but I will add them once this protection is lifted. Until then, just present what sources you have here, and I am sure they will come up on the article in the next few days. Plus, it was explained that the admins decided to protect the page w/o putting the tag in, thus, that is why it is not listed at protected pages. Zscout370 22:43, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * With or without a tag here, I thought all protected page is suppose to be listed at protected page with the reasoning. Where was this comments by admins you're referring? Any possibilities for a link so I can read whatever was said? -- KTC 22:51, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't see a page protection message but I don't get an edit tab, either. Jonathunder 22:44, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
 * The page has been vandalized just a short period of time ago. It's ok it's protected at this time. --Maxl 22:49, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is not okay to protect this page. please can someone unlock it. --SqueakBox 22:50, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Most of the recent protections of this page have been brief (2-8 minutes) for the express purpose of cleaning up page duplication due to the section bug. It was protected for 'vandalism' from 22:15, 19 Apr 2005 to 22:53, 19 Apr 2005 when it was unprotected. See Special:Log/protect. Niteowlneils 22:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Controversy
I think this page needs a controversy section. It could include more information on this pope's nazi history as well as his anti-contraceptive and anti-gay beliefs. I uploaded this letter:, which is quite staunchly anti-gay and I think that's important to note here.

Oh, and why is the page protected? >_< Quasipalm 22:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * If you are willing to do so in a NPOV way, please do so. But if your interest is just to put the Pope's dirty laundry to satisfy whatever bias you have, don't. 128.252.20.65 23:16, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Page Locked Unfairly
What is going on is out of order and I suspect in contradiction of various wikipedia policies. I have bought the locking of this page to Requests for page protection, where it should be discussed. i hope the people locking are not editing, and will scrutinise closely. this article needs opening now to everyone to edit. That way we keep our reputation as a source of up to date material and utilise the great energy to edit this page, --SqueakBox 22:48, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with SqueakBox. I just looked through the page history and the "vandalism" was no such thing. Small inaccuracies does not equal vandalism -- and the few times something started being entered with POV it was quick removed. So what's the problem? Quasipalm 22:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

... While I don't like protecting or blocking pages, sometimes it is necessary to keep the integrity of the article. Since this story happened today, many people are checking out the site (which is good) and adding rumors and other unverifiable items (which is bad). I personally think that to stop this and the vandalism, there should be some control of the site. Oh, I think the following which was on the site but now thankfully removed would be considered vandalism ....Benedict was considered to be Pope John Paul II's "right hand man" and also one of his closest friends, and during the Pope's final illness, he carried out many of the Pope's functions as leader of the Catholic Church, such as molesting young boys and degrating women. .... He is the eighth German pope. The last German pope, Adrian VI, was elected in 1522 and died in 1523. He is also the oldest cardinal to become pope since Clement XII, who like Ratzinger was elected at age 78. The reasoning behind picking such a old pope, is simple. They have not yet made up their mind and hope to soon find him dead so they can pick the guy they really want. Totally inappropriate editorializing in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic article. .... Poop Benedict XVI.Ramsquire 23:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's entirely inappropriate to have an "admin edit only" page. Either all can edit it, or none should. Policy is "Do not edit a temporarily protected page except to add a protected page notice." (we probably should have an exception for repairing our frequent duplication problem, but at present, we don't). It's entirely inappropriate to have a "sliently" protected page, as well. The reason given in the protection log for the latest protection is "Under some vandalism - seems hard to handle." As we can handle vandalism just fine, and since administrators have continued to edit it while in its protected state, I will unprotect it. - Nunh-huh 22:54, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you. -- KTC 22:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree Nunh-huh, the purpose of the locking feature is not to allow admins to edit the page in relative peace. That may not have been the reason the page was locked, but if that's what's going on then it's against the spirit of Wikipedia: This encyclopedia is meant to be edited by the masses, not by an elite few, and admins shouldn't take advantage of the lock to get priority for their edits. If a page is locked due to constant vandalism or edit war then nobody should be editing it, like Nunh-huh pointed out. If it's locked due to technical problems like the duplication bug, then that should be fixed and then it should be unlocked. -Eisnel 23:48, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

... But should anyone have to constantly check out an article everyday to make sure it hasn't been vandalised. BTW-- When I joined wiki, I was told to make suggested changes in the discussion page first so that everyone can discuss and edit before changing the article. If everyone followed that wiki rule, we wouldn't need to block pages, except for technical problems. Ramsquire 23:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction in elected age
There is a contradiction in he is 78 years old: but Angelo Roncalli was the same age when he became Pope as John XXIII. It is said below that he is the oldest elected pope in 1000 years. Yann

 * Roncalli was 77 at the time he was elected pope (born 1881, elected 1958.) --Maxl 23:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, he was 76. Roncalli, b. 25 Nov 1881, elected 28 Oct 1958 at the age of 28095 days (76 years, 11 months, 3 days). Ratzinger, b. 16 Apr 1927, elected 19 Apr 2005, at the age of 28493 days (78 years, 5 days). - Nunh-huh 23:19, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Isn't this a great (but late) birthday present for Ratzinger, eh? Zscout370 00:02, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know. The burdens of the papacy are very great, and would easily overwhelm a mere man without any divine inspiration. Bratsche talk  random 02:01, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

vandalism
The page was locked i think because some idiots were vandalising the page with anti-german phrases and slogans. I saw these but they were removed quickly so may not have been noticed.

There are people watching the page to revert vandalism. The positive effects of keeping the páge open far outway the brief vandalisms, --SqueakBox 23:10, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * I would not be surprised if this talk page has been blanked by a vandal. You know what, it might have been, already, since I tried to edit something, then the page went blank except for two words "Seig Heil" in all caps. Zscout370 23:33, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Name in Latin
The official Vatican site says BENEDICTVM XVI. But the Latina article is Benedictus XVI. What gives? —Cantus… ☎   23:08, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * See Talk:Pope_Benedict_XVI/Archive01. / Alarm 23:12, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Vatican says "Habemus PapAM BenedictUM XVI". --> Benedictus XVI (latin grammar)

 * Yes, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pope_Benedict_XVI/Archive01#BENEDICTVM_XVI - "Benedictum" is the accusative case, as in "We have pope B. XVI". The normal citation would be nominative case, "Benedictus" (User:Sk4p) Gestumblindi 23:18, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not sure who keeps deleting this but here goes again:

Born 1927 Joined Hitler Youth once it became compulsory (1941), aged 14, Served in the Wehrmact from 1943 to 1945 (aged 16 to 18 )

Surrendered to Allied Forces in 1945 and was sent to a POW camp.

The claim he 'defected' is just political word play.

The black sweater
Why is it notable that he put the papal robes on over his black sweater? And why the assumption that he forgot to take the sweater off? Maybe he was cold and consciously chose to leave it on. And what difference does it make anyway? --Angr/comhrá 23:39, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree. If no source is found that indicates he forgot, or that it is some sort of a no-no to wear a sweater under the robe, then that comment needs to come out.  Johntex 23:44, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Unless this can be shown to be taboo, it is largely irrelevent. Rje 23:51, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree, but just like with the 'outrage' over Dick Cheney's outfit at the Auswitz Memorial, it will take a few days for the fashion police to look it over. Zscout370 23:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I've removed the reference to the black sweater. If anyone finds a source that shows it is relevant they can put it back.  Johntex 00:27, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Seven or Eight German Popes
At various times this article has said Pope Benedict XVI is the seventh German pope and at some times it has said the eighth. Sometimes the article has even said both at once with one number in the into and the other in the body. Is he eight if we count Adrian VI and seven if we do not? If that is the case, then a simple "eighth German pope counting Adrian VI" will suffice to clear this up. Johntex 23:49, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

All reasonable people are counting Adrian simply because he was a German Pope, just like George W. Bush is an American President. All newspapers says 8th Pope.

 * Is Stephen X, who was a Lorrainer, also to be considered a German pope? Can somebody list out the eight? john k 02:17, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Adrian VI
I believe that Pope Adrian VI is generally regarded as a Dutch pope, rather than a German one. The BBC certainly suggest that Ratzinger is the first German pope since the 11th century. Rje 23:50, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

 * See the discussion above - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pope_Benedict_XVI#First_German_Pope_since_1523_2 . German-langauge media claim Adrian VI usually as a German pope, see e.g. http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,352294,00.html ("Ratzinger ist der erste Deutsche auf dem Stuhl Petri seit dem Jahr 1523"). Gestumblindi 23:56, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And the FAZ and most other newspapers correctly informs that Adrian was a German and Dutch Pope, which is not a contradiction (Ratzinger is both Bavarian and German too).

I just listened to BBC World, and they said Ratzinger is the first german pope in nearly 500 years.

 * I must say I find this latest Wikipedia controversy absolutely appaling. If I understand the argument, Adrian VI was born in Utrecht, then in principle part of the Holy Roman Empire (in principle only! in reality Utrecht was an independent bishopric, and not part of the Burgundian empire as was wrongly stated above, and became the 17th province of the Lower Countries in 1528, after Adrian's death). The argument goes on saying that Utrecht was located in an area where a dialect of Lower German was spoken, a dialect which would soon become Dutch (or Nederlands, i.e. "of the Lower Countries" as it is known in the Netherlands), and so therefore, Adrian VI was German, voila. This is appaling! It's about as absurd as saying that a Paris born 2nd century pope was Italian because Paris was then part of the Roman Empire, and the language spoken in Paris was a sort of vulgar Latin. The concept of German ethnicity used here sounds extremely similar to the Third Reich concepts of German ethnicity, and that's rather scary! (all the more scary if indeed the German media quoted above also purport that Adrian VI was German). Adrian VI was Dutch, or of the Lower Countries if you prefer, and there seems to be no doubt about it, except on Wikipedia. I was listening today to BBC 1 and to France 2, the main public TV channels in the UK and France, and both channels known for their rigor, and both clearly said that the last German pope was Victor II. Does Wikipedia really want to appear ridiculous on that matter? Finally, about the claims that Adrian VI had German ancestry, I find them quite spurious. Where are the proofs? As far as I know, there's lots of mystery surrounding his birth, and not much is quite sure. Even if it were true that he had German ancestry, it doesn't make him German. General Einsenhower had (proven) German ancestry, but he was certainly not German! Let's get serious please. Hardouin 00:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Hardouin, the Bishopric of Utrecht was no less a part of the Holy Roman Empire than any other territory, all of whose allegiance in the 15th century was semi-dubious. In terms of the Burgundian stuff, I did not say it was part of the Burgundian Empire.  However, at the time of Adrian's birth, the prince-bishop was the illegitimate son of Philip the Good, and Utrecht was certainly within the Burgundian sphere of influence. john k 02:16, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm tired of ridiculous propaganda from persons with no knowledge of European history. Dutch people were a part of the German people in the 16th century. Finito! Nothing more to discuss! In fact, people from Schleswig or Lower Saxony and Dutchmen were much more related than the first with Bavarians. Furthermore, the ancestors of Adrian were from present-day German territory. He was as German as any other German, politically, culturally and ethnically.

 * I suspect the Dutch would strongly disagree. Dutch Wikipedia's article on him doesn't discuss the question of how many German popes there have been before him, though. --Angr/comhrá 00:24, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Petty nationalism among some Dutch people is not relevant for the English Wikipedia.

 * Nor is petty German nationalism. john k 02:16, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Capitalize the word "Pope"?
I've seen a few minor skirmishes in the article history regarding the capitalization of the word "pope". Does it get capitalized or not? What are the rules? I've seen a number of pages on Wikipedia that don't capitalize it, even though it seems natural to capitalize it. I've never quite understood the rules regarding that word. -Eisnel 00:01, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * When using in the form of "the Pope" use capitalization. Do not capitalize for "a pope."  Capitalize when used as a title as in "Pope Benedict XVI." Capitalize "Pope of the Roman Catholic Church" when used in reference to a single person.  Do not capitalize "pope of the Roman Catholic Church" when refering to a generalized statement concerning any pope.

 * Example of correct usage: "Pope Benedict XVI serves as a pope of the Roman Catholic Church." "Pope Benedict XVI is the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church." --Gerald Farinas 00:07, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks. I guess I've never thought of "the Pope" and "a pope" as being different. "John Paul II was the Pope, and a good pope he was." How fascinating. =o) -Eisnel 00:11, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Amen. --Gerald Farinas 00:23, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

German Christian name

 * As it has been previously discussed, is not his first Christian name correctly spelled "Josef?"
 * Not necessarily. German uses both spellings. --Angr/comhrá 00:24, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See http://www.spiegel.de/. Nough said. —Cantus… ☎   00:26, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Works Section Translation Please
Perhaps the works section needs someone who is bilingual to add English translations after the names of each of the works. I think it's of questionable value to have a list that long on an English page with no translated text or explanation. It appears to be a direct copy from the de version of the page.
 * That might a sapient idea, sir.

Papal Coronation
Is there any likeliness of a coronation instead of a mere "installment"?
 * I know the ceremony will be full of pomp and circumstance, but we will have to just wait and see. Zscout370 00:51, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Paul VI was the last to be crowned, and he surrendered his papal tiara as a sign of humility. John Paul I, I think, got rid of coronations, but they could theoretically be re-instated. Unlikely, though.

Let's hear what the Dutch have to say about it
In the latest (typically Wikipedian) raging controversy about Adrian VI's ethnicity, I thought à tout seigneur, tout honneur, let's hear what the Dutch have to say about it. Here are quotes from the four largest Dutch newspapers published today: Does that settle it? or do we want to be plus royaliste que le roi? Hardouin 00:57, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * De Telegraaf: "Het is de eerste Duitse paus sinds Victor II en de 264e opvolger van Petrus." (for the millions of us who sadly do not speak Dutch, that means "He is the first German pope since Victor II, and the 264th successor of St Peter").
 * NRC Handelsblad: "De laatste Duitse paus was Victor II, die regeerde van 1055 tot 1057. Sinds 1523, toen de Nederlander Adrianus VI paus was, tot 1978, toen de Pool Karol Wojtyla paus werd, heeft de rooms-katholieke kerk altijd een Italiaan als paus gehad." (i.e.: "The last German pope was Victor II, who ruled from 1055 to 1057. From 1523, when the pope was the Dutch Adrian VI, until 1978, when the Pole Karol Woktyla became pope, the Roman Catholic Church always had an Italian as pope.").
 * De Volkskrant: "Ratzinger is de eerste Duitse paus sinds Victor II (1055-1057) en de 264e opvolger van de apostel Petrus." ("Ratzinger is the first German pope since Victor II (1055-1057), and the 264th successor of the apostle Peter.")
 * Algemeen Dagblad : "Het is de eerste Duitse paus sinds Victor II (1055-1057)." ("He's the first German pope since Victor II (1055-1057).")

 * It is only too natural that Dutch newspapers tend to claim Adrian VI for the Dutch only, as well as the German newspapers (Spiegel, FAZ etc.) call him just a "German". Both viewpoints are understandable. I think the solution of calling him "Dutch and therefore considered German at his time" or something similar should work. Gestumblindi 01:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Languages
Anyone know all ten languages that he speaks? 68.230.39.252 01:01, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A quick search reveals English, German, Italian, Latin and Greek. French is probably another, and if he is smart he will have learned Spanish too. Adam 02:03, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Finally this business is over...for now
Frankly, I'm glad that we have a new Pope. This hubbub will die down soon, and everything will be as it was. Pope John Paul II was dying an old man: he was in a terrible condition, he couldn't talk, and he was almost in a vegitated state. I realize that since Benedict XVI is old, people might be talking about the new Pope's death as soon as they are done talking about John Paul's, but at least all of the Christians are at rest.

That's all I have to say.

--bobbo king 01:31, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

 * I think Benedict XVI will do a good job, but with this process taking place, I began to fully appreciate the steps and the various ceremonies that take place from the death of the Holy Father to the conclave. I will remember this experience when the election of the next pope takes place. Zscout370 01:42, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Copyvio Images
I removed a slew of copyvio images from the article. Images from the Holy See would be preferable as a legitimate fair use claim can be made, ripping off AP and Reuters images from various web sites is not a legitimate fair use claim. --Wgfinley 02:21, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the AP and Reuters photos were used as place-holders until we can find fair use/free use images. I would check some blogs and see what we can find. Zscout370 02:26, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"First Jewish Pope" dubiousness
I'd like to see sources cited for this, as it has been pointed out that this may not be entirely accurate. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 02:22, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)

I've never seen anything of the sort before. I removed the reference to a Jewish mother - half Jews weren't allowed to join Hitler Youth, for one thing. john k 02:29, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If it were even a rumour it would be widely commented on, but Google reveals nothing. Someone has just made this up to annoy us. Adam 02:31, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Isn't the stupid German/Dutch nonsense annoying enough for everyone? Sigh. john k 02:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They just say that because he looks jewish

And...what else? Plus, whoever you are, please sign after every edit (by using this ~ ). Zscout370 02:45, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, the name that were coming up as a possible pope that is technically jewish was French Lustiger who had a Jewish mother, not Ratzinger. -- KTC 02:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anyway I assume the first popes were Jewish (starting with the first one) no?

Benedictus, Benedictum
The Latin language has five cases for nouns: nominative, accusative, dative, ablative, genetive. This man's adopted name is "Benedictus" in the nominative case and "Benedictum" in the acccusative -- I think; correct me if I'm wrong. Which case is appropriate depends on context. When a cardinal said "Habemus papam ... Benedictum XVI", the accusative case was used because it's the object of the verb "habemus". But nominative seems right in the first paragraph of this article. (I'm rather illiterate in Latin, to say the least; it's one of those languages I can occasionally understand, but not speak, so I could have this wrong.) Michael Hardy 02:32, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, if it's accusative, it's -um; if nominative, then -us. Thus, "Benedictus Papa est" -- subject, thus acc. "Habemus Benedictum" and dative "Benedicto biblam do" (I'm giving Benedict a bible) --Zantastik 02:51, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You forget the vocative, there are six cases in latin. Hektor 03:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sounds right to me. JP2 was Ioannes Paulus, was he not? --User:Jenmoa 02:47, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

odd picture
removed an rather odd picture that was posted in the place of the previous actual picture of the Pope.

Not that I condone that sort of thing on Wikipedia (my precious), but if you had a look at the cover pic of "A New Pope" on www.smh.com.au, you might have a giggle like I did! The framing of his arms - just like a hood! So appropriate! Tez 04:15, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A good source for writing about him
Here's something he recently wrote: --Zantastik 02:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Latin name
I'm hardly fluent in Latin (barely remember my single university course!) but according to the Vatican website his reign name in Latin is "BENEDICTVM XVI", romanized that would be "Benedictum XVI" would it not? Why does the page say: "officially in Latin Benedictus XVI"? It would seem to me that even if Benedictum is technically incorrect it is his official name.

Gabe 03:04, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Doh! I see that this is being discussed above! ;)

Gabe 03:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive 2


text: User talk:68.80.134.26

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:68.80.134.26


text:
Mgwirizano Coalition

The Mgwirizano Coalition is an electoral alliance in Malawi. At the 20 May 2004 general election, the coalition won 27 out of 194 seats.

Member parties of the coalition are:
 * Malawi Democratic Party
 * Malawi Forum for Unity and Development
 * Movement for Genuine Democratic Change
 * National Unity Party
 * People's Progressive Movement
 * People's Transformation Party
 * Republican Party

title: Mgwirizano Coalition


text: User talk:24.210.92.69

title: User talk:24.210.92.69


text:
Gold River, British Columbia

Gold River is a village municipality located close to the geographic centre of Vancouver Island in British Columbia, Canada. In terms of the Island's human geography it is considered to be part of the "North Island", even though it technically is on the Island's west coast.

History
Taking advantage of its deep water and abundant forests, Gold River developed in 1967 as a prototypical logging and pulp and paper industry community. Gold River quickly sprang into prosperity and established excellent community facilities. When shifting world markets brought the mill closure in 1998, many of Gold River's inhabitants were forced to relocate. Since then, the village has attempted to capitalize on its idyllic setting among picturesque mountains, lakes, rivers, ocean, and forests to develop tourism and sport fishing as its main economic supports.

Currently, Gold River serves as a base for such famous activities as the Nootka Island trek, hiking the Elk Lake trail and mountain climbing Golden Hinde (Vancouver Island's highest peak), Crest Creek climbing crags, MV Uchuck III, and the Great Walk.

Gold River also serves as a historic point, being the closest village to the famous Yuquot, or "Friendly Cove", where British explorer Captain James Cook first set ashore. There Cook met the Mowachaht native band's chief, Chief Maquinna.

Demographics
In the 2021 Census of Population conducted by Statistics Canada, Gold River had a population of 1,246 living in 610 of its 692 total private dwellings, a change of NaN% from its 2016 population of 1,212. With a land area of 10.92 km2, it had a population density of in 2021.

Luna, the orca
In 2001, a two-year-old male orca, later named Luna, was seen in Nootka Sound alone as far inland as the marina at Gold River. Presumed to be an orphan separated from his pod, Luna became a local and international celebrity by his playful and curious behavior with lumber tugboats and recreational watercraft on Nootka Sound, and with people, including young children, on the Gold River dock. The popularity of Luna made Gold River an international attraction from early 2002 through March 2006 when Luna was killed in an accidental collision with a tugboat propeller.

Climate
Gold River has a Marine west coast climate (Köppen climate classification Cfb). With warm dry summers and mild rainy winters, during the winter constant Low Pressure Systems moving off of the Pacific Ocean causes winter to be the wettest season. Most precipitation falls as rain year round but snow is not uncommon in the winter months averaging 118 cm but does not usually stay long. Summers are warm with an average summer temperate of 17.6 C in July, although afternoon shade temperatures exceeding 30 C are not uncommon in summer. This is due to the community being located inland surrounded by mountains, causing Adiabatic heating to occur giving Gold River its own microclimate. The summer months are also the driest of the year with only 55.4 mm of rain in July compared to 481.9 mm in November. The average rainfall all year is 2846.7 mm making the west coast of Vancouver Island the wettest place in Canada.

The record high recorded for the village was 41.5 C recorded on July 28, 2009. That record high, however, was shattered during the 2021 Western North America heat wave. A weather station at Ray Watkins Elementary school recorded a new record high of 42.1 C on June 27, which was blown away the next day when the temperature reached 43.7 C on June 28 which is the current record as it stands for the village. The record low was -19 C recorded on January 28, 1980.

title: Gold River, British Columbia


text:
User:Dcljr/Interlanguage

The tables below list the largest Wikipedias in various languages. I'm in the process of moving them to a similar page at Meta.

See also:
 * m:User:Dcljr/Wikipedias
 * List of Wikipedias
 * Wikimedia News
 * Milestone statistics
 * Multilingual monthly statistics

'''Please do not edit this page. Comments should go on my talk page. Thanks.'''

100,000+
Moved to m:User:Dcljr/Wikipedias.

10,000+
Moved to m:User:Dcljr/Wikipedias.

1,000+
Article counts are from April 19-20, 2005.

(TP) = talk page only

100+
Article counts are from April 20-24, 2005.

Fewer than 100
Article counts below are old and come from a past version of Complete list of language Wikipedias available.

 * nah: Nahuatl (# = 94)
 * co: Corsican (# = 89)
 * mn: Mongolian (# = 75)
 * rm: Romansh (# = 67)
 * jbo: Lojban (# = 65)
 * yi: Yiddish (# = 59)
 * sw: Swahili (# = 58)
 * nv: Navajo (# = 55)
 * gu: Gujarati (script) (# = 55)
 * tlh: Klingon (# = 51)
 * na: Nauruan (# = 48)
 * ht: Haitian (# = 44)
 * vo: Volapük (# = 44)
 * iu: Inuktitut (# = 42)
 * ln: Lingála (# = 37)
 * yo: Yorùbá (# = 37)
 * chr: Cherokee (# = 36)
 * az: Azeri (# = 35)
 * sn: Shona (# = 26)
 * haw: Hawaiian (# = 23)
 * mg: Malagasy (# = 23)
 * ne: Nepali (# = 22)
 * roa-rup: Aromanian (# = 21)
 * bo: Tibetan (# = 21)
 * fur: Friulian (# = 20)
 * qu: Quechua (# = 17)
 * mt: Maltese (# = 13)
 * gn: Guaraní (# = 12)
 * tum: Tumbuka (# = 12)
 * bi: Bislama (# = 11)
 * bm: Bambara (# = 10)
 * so: Somali (# = 10)
 * gv: Manx (# = 9)
 * sc: Sardinian (# = 9)
 * ps: Pushtu (# = 8)
 * tk: Turkmen (# = 7)
 * km: Khmer (# = 6)
 * uz: Uzbek (# = 6)
 * cv: Chuvash (# = 5)
 * ky: Kyrgyz (# = 5)
 * sm: Samoan (# = 4)
 * sd: Sindhi (# = 4)
 * tn: Setswana (# = 4)
 * ug: Uyghur (# = 4)
 * wo: Wolof (# = 4)
 * zu: Zulu (# = 4)
 * got: Gothic (# = 3)
 * kk: Kazakh (# = 3)
 * pi: Pali (# = 3)
 * st: Sesotho (# = 3)
 * ss: Swati (# = 3)
 * ty: Tahitian (# = 3)
 * am: Amharic (# = 2)
 * ay: Aymara (# = 2)
 * bh: Bhojpuri (# = 2)
 * my: Burmese (# = 2)
 * fj: Fijian (# = 2)
 * kl: Greenlandic (# = 2)
 * ha: Hausa (# = 2)
 * lo: Lao (# = 2)
 * pa: Punjabi (# = 2)
 * ts: Tsonga (# = 2)
 * xh: Xhosa (# = 2)
 * ba: Bashkir (# = 1)
 * ig: Igbo (# = 1)
 * tg: Tajik (# = 1)
 * ab: Abkhazian (# = 1)
 * aa: Afar (# = 0)
 * ak: Akan (# = 0)
 * arc: Aramaic (# = 0)
 * as: Assamese (# = 3)
 * av: Avar (# = 1)
 * ch: Chamorro (# = 0)
 * ce: Chechen (# = 0)
 * chy: Cheyenne (# = 0)
 * ny: Chichewa (# = 0)
 * cho: Choctaw (# = 0)
 * cr: Cree (# = 0)
 * dv: Dhivehi (# = 3)
 * dz: Dzongkha (# = 2)
 * ee: Ewe (# = 1)
 * ff: Fulfulde (# = 0)
 * hz: Herero (# = 0)
 * ho: Hiri (# = 0)
 * ik: Iñupiaq (# = 1)
 * kr: Kanuri (# = 0)
 * ki: Kikuyu (# = 0)
 * rw: Kinyarwanda (# = 2)
 * rn: Kirundi (# = 0)
 * kv: Komi (# = 1)
 * kg: Kongo (# = 0)
 * kj: Kuanyama (# = 0)
 * lg: Luganda (# = 0)
 * mh: Marshallese (# = 0)
 * mus: Muscogee (# = 0)
 * ng: Ndonga (# = 0)
 * or: Oriya (# = 1)
 * om: Oromo (# = 1)
 * sg: Sango (# = 0)
 * si: Sinhala (# = 0)
 * ti: Tigrinya (# = 1)
 * tw: Twi (# = 1)
 * to: Tongan (# = 2)
 * ve: Venda (# = 1)
 * ii: Yi (# = 0)
 * za: Zhuang (# = 0)

title: User:Dcljr/Interlanguage


text:
Talk:Footwork

Redirect
I've removed the redirect and made this disambiguation. Persons looking for Footwork are most likely to be looking for information on the Formula One constructor, but as this was a redirect to a dance glossary, i'm going to leave that here too rather than change the redirect. Hedley 22:03, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Fine with me, but your "most likely" is most likely dubious IMO. 23:38, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Footwork


text:
Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Xiong 2

This is foolishness. The RfC was going very nicely, I thought, despite dragging on indefinitely. I think it was quite clear that the villagers are not up in arms against myself alone.

Radiant seems to think this is an Etch-a-Sketch; if the picture isn't to his liking, why, just give it a shake and try over. This makes a mockery of the entire process. Why did I participate? Why did I honestly respond to objections, some of which were obviously made in bad faith? Why did other users take time from their lives, time away from substantive contributions, to read this turgid text and endorse one summary or another? Was it so we could all be played for fools?

If anyone cares to revert this RfC, I shall continue to participate in it -- on the offchance that someone might make a genuine comment, to which I must honestly and fully respond. But I assert that anyone foolish enough to play along with this sandbox-raking does not even care to hear me, so I shall remain silent.

As always, of course, I am available at the drop of a hat on my Talk or by email -- just click the Chinese character in my sig. Thank you. — Xiong 熊 talk 08:55, 2005 Apr 27 (UTC)

 * My interpretation of what Radiant! has done is that he's re-read the instructions at the top of the page which state that an RfC must be about the same dispute, not several. The old RfC could be interpreted now as being two disputes - yourself and Netoholic; and yourself and others. I am not strongly opinionated as to whether this is the case or not, but it appears to be the way several people are treating it. In that situation it appears sensible to split the topics to stay within RfC rules. Thryduulf 09:14, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Thryduulf. I should point out that Xiong asked me to 'get Netoholic off his back'. I have attempted to do just that. It seems Xiong is unaware of the fact that, despite any alleged hostility from Netoholic and his alleged cronies, there exist in fact legitimate concerns about him. Radiant_* 10:16, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * These are good points. There are genuine concerns about Xiong's behaviour that may be buried under a mound of Netoholic vs. Xiong, so perhaps a new RfC is a good idea. I'm not sure. Maybe the old one should have been placed into its own section (titled Xiong vs. Netoholic?). Having to start anew with fresh (though repeated) evidence makes me feel like we just wasted a lot of time. --Deathphoenix 13:19, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Evidence in the renewed RfC
I have cut-and-pasted most evidence from the old RfC to the new. This evidence includes some references to the dispute between Xiong and Netoholic. I think that this evidence is still relevant as it is directly about how Xiong conducted himself in an inappropriate manner. If you disagree with the re-inclusion of this evidence please say so. -- FP ?? 10:57, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

please don't "renew" this again. it was going fine the way it was, but if we're going to renew it, just leave it this time. - Omegatron 14:19, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * It was going just fine, with the execption of the subject of the RfC not listening to what anyone was saying. A fresh start may fix that. --Carnildo 19:05, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Good point. - Omegatron 22:49, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

From my talk page,
 * ''Now here is something Netoholic and I agree on completely. Maybe we can work together after all. I never said he was stupid. — Xiong熊talk 03:29, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)
 * So I guess this did work in resolving the differences between Xiong and Netoholic. Glad to hear that. -- Radiant, no login from here sorry.


text:
User talk:AlexRem

Hi there. Welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like it here and stick around. If you want, you can drop us a note at New user log to introduce yourself.

Song lyrics aren't something we generally put in Wikipedia, and I'm going to need to delete the ones you're adding. They're protected by copyright (which means we aren't legally allowed to include them) and they aren't encyclopedia articles anyway. Please do keep writing articles, though!

Before you start doing a lot of editing, you'll want to take the Tutorial. It gives all the basic info you'll need as you start contributing.

You can sign your name on talk pages by using " " for your username and " ~ " for your username and a timestamp.

If you have any other questions about the project then check out Help or add a question to the Help desk. You can also drop me a question on my talk page.

Happy editing, Isomorphic 22:04, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:AlexRem


text:
Ghulam (film)

Ghulam is a 1998 Indian Hindi-language action film, directed by Vikram Bhatt, and starring Aamir Khan and Rani Mukherji in lead roles. The plot of the movie is similar to Vishesh Films' first production Kabzaa (1988), starring Sanjay Dutt, in turn inspired by Elia Kazan's On the Waterfront (1954).

Ghulam released on 19 June 1998, and was a commercial success at the box office.

At the 44th Filmfare Awards, Ghulam received 6 nominations, including Best Film, Best Director (Bhatt) and Best Actor (Khan), and won Best Scene of the Year. The film was remade in Tamil in 2000 as Sudhandhiram.

Plot
Siddharth "Siddhu" Marathe is a Mumbai boxing champion who otherwise leads a relatively aimless life. His older brother, Jai, is the right-hand man of Raunak "Ronnie" Singh, a former boxing champion who rules the local community by terrorising the people and local merchants. Siddhu is financially dependent on Jai, who lives with Ronnie.

The opening scene features a warm-hearted lawyer Fatima Madam defending Siddhu in court against accusations of small-time theft. Siddhu is let go but steals money from his own lawyer's purse. One day, Siddhu enters a dare with a motorcycle gang to run toward a moving train. Siddhu beats the gang leader Charlie's record and rescues Charlie when he falls on the tracks. In the process, Siddhu becomes friends with Alisha, another gang member, and their friendship blossoms into love. It is later revealed that Siddhu saw his own father's death as a child, which has mentally affected him throughout his life.

One day, Siddhu witnesses Ronnie's men beating up a local restaurateur for not paying extortion money to Ronnie's gang. The restaurateur runs for his life as Ronnie's men chase him, but none of the other community people come to his aid. Harihar Mafatlal, a social worker, coaxes a police constable to stop the fight. The restaurateur and his two assailants land up on the roof where Siddhu is doing boxing practice, with Hari and the constable following. The constable breaks up the fight and scolds the restaurateur, and Hari is angry at the constable for blaming the victim. The assailants leave, greeting Siddhu on the way out. Siddhu offers some water to the restaurateur and introduces himself to Hari, advising both to avoid getting on the wrong side of Ronnie. Hari speaks of principle and self-respect, and Siddhu is reminded of things that his father told him long ago.

Ronnie is furious to hear about this and wishes to kill the restaurateur and Hari immediately. Ronnie explains the logic of terror to his henchmen: if even a few people stop acceding to his demands, that will instill rebelliousness against Ronnie's demands in others. Fear is essential for the kind of respect Ronnie enjoys, and being lenient against a few people who stand up to him based on a short-term cost–benefit analysis will have long-term negative consequences for Ronnie. Jai, however, dissuades Ronnie from taking rash action. In the process, it is revealed that Jai and Ronnie are in the process of bribing politicians and government officials to make Ronnie the owner of a large construction project.

Hari later canvasses some villagers together, trying to get one of them to sign a complaint against Ronnie that can be filed with the police so that official action can be taken against him. Siddhu attends the meeting at Jai's request but does not inform Jai or Ronnie about it immediately. Instead, Siddhu offers Hari a friendly warning to cease and desist these activities. During the conversation that ensues, Siddhu says that his own motto in life is simple: live and let live. Hari reveals the principle guiding his own actions: whenever he sees himself in the mirror, he should not feel ashamed of what he sees.

Ronnie nonetheless learns of the events during the meeting and is angry. He tells Siddhu to arrange a meeting between Hari and himself (Ronnie) so that Ronnie can dissuade Hari from these activities. Siddhu agrees, and calls Hari over to a bridge, on the pretext that he himself (Siddhu) needs to talk to Hari. Hari arrives at the bridge, expecting to meet Siddhu. Ronnie arrives along with his men, beats up Hari, and throws him from the bridge after which he is crushed under a moving train. Siddhu is furious at Jai and Ronnie and attacks Ronnie physically, but Ronnie's men control him, and he is allowed to go on account of the fact that he is Jai's brother and he was the one who managed to inadvertently help Ronnie kill Hari. Siddhu, returning home, cannot bear the sight of himself in the mirror, and breaks it. It is also revealed that Hari was the brother of Alisha (Siddhu's romantic interest), something Siddhu had been unaware of because he was living separately. Siddhu confesses everything to Fatima Madam, the female lawyer who had defended him at the beginning of the movie but refuses to testify against Ronnie in court, for fear of implicating his elder brother Jai. The lawyer tries to talk him into testifying but fails. She challenges him to reveal the truth to Alisha, which he does, and they break up.

In a subsequent boxing match (against boxing champion "Kala Tiger"), that Siddhu has been preparing for several months, Siddhu is told by his brother, in the midst of the game, to throw the match, since Ronnie has bet money on Siddhu losing. Siddhu throws the game, allowing the other boxer to beat him unconscious. He is furious at his brother, and they have an oral confrontation. In the process, Siddhu is forced to confront that his father had betrayed five of his friends in the Indian independence movement to the British out of fear of being tortured, causing all of them to be killed. Siddhu realises that his father was a good man, but, like everybody else, was a coward and lacked the strength to fight injustice. Yet, he knows that his father wanted to instill these values in him, and he vows to bring Hari's killers to justice and complete the task that Hari attempted to begin. He tells Fatima Madam (the lawyer) that he is willing to testify publicly against Ronnie as well as against his own brother Jai, and also confesses to her his theft of Rs. 400 (shown at the beginning of the movie). She expresses pride in Siddhu, revealing that she knew all along about the theft and also knew that Siddhu would reveal it to her someday of his own accord. She tries to get Alisha to forgive Siddhu but fails. Siddhu is now a reformed man.

When Ronnie discovers that Siddhu is the person who has filed a complaint against him, he is ready to kill Siddhu. Jai dissuades Ronnie, reassuring him that Jai himself will dissuade Siddhu from testifying publicly against Ronnie. In an emotional scene, Siddhu, when approached by Jai, confronts Jai instead, accusing Jai of neglecting his duties as an elder brother by encouraging Siddhu to follow himself in a life of crime. Jai realises his error and apologises. Upon returning home, Siddhu discovers Alisha waiting for him, and they embrace and reconcile. Later that night, Ronnie kills Jai and his men also try to kill Siddhu, but the motorcycle gang led by Charlie (whose life Siddhu had saved earlier) intervenes to save Siddhu's life. Siddhu wants to kill Ronnie in person to avenge his brother's death, but the female lawyer arrives in time to dissuade him.

The next day, in court, Siddhu gives his testimony regarding Ronnie's murder of Hari. The court is adjourned until Monday. Coming out of court, Ronnie orders for a local bandh and forces all the shops to close down. He also has Siddhu's home broken into and his belongings thrown on the street. Siddhu, upon seeing this, walks up to Ronnie's house and challenges him to come out and duel alone, rather than hiding behind henchmen. Ronnie agrees, and all the people in the area come out to watch. The two boxers have a long and bloody boxing match, with nobody interfering. Though Siddhu is severely injured, he remains victorious. As the local people see one man with the courage to fight Raunak Singh, they awaken to the possibility that they too can resist his extortionary demands. Ronnie loses the fight, but he then orders his henchmen to kill Siddhu. The local people, who are much more numerous than Ronnie's henchmen, block the attempt. Together, they beat up Ronnie and his henchmen and force them to flee the area.

Cast

 * Aamir Khan as Siddharth Marathe "Siddhu"
 * Rani Mukerji as Alisha Mafatlal
 * Deepak Tijori as Charlie
 * Sharat Saxena as Raunak "Ronnie" Singh
 * Akshay Anand as Harihar "Hari" Mafatlal, Alisha's brother.
 * Rajit Kapoor as Jai Marathe, Siddharth's brother.
 * Mita Vashisht as Siddharth's lawyer Fatima madam
 * Dalip Tahil as Vishwanath Marathe, Siddharth's father.(special appearance)
 * Raju Kher as Ashok Mafatlal, Alisha's father
 * Ashutosh Rana as Shyamsundar Agrawal (special appearance)
 * Kamlesh Oza as Avinash
 * Daya Shankar Pandey
 * Amin Hajee as Black Tiger (boxing champion)
 * Prithvi Zutshi
 * Sheikh Sami
 * Rahul Singh

Production
Filming for Ghulam began in June 1997. By mid-August, a week-long schedule at a specially erected set at Film City in Mumbai was completed.

Dubbing
Rani Mukerji's voice was dubbed by Mona Shetty, who had a much more high-pitched voice. When asked if the director's decision to not use her voice in the film affected her, she said that her voice was dubbed as it "did not suit the character".

Stunts
A sequence in the film shows Aamir running on a rail track towards an oncoming train, which misses him by a few feet as he jumps off the tracks. 1.3 seconds was the only difference between Aamir and the train. This stunt was actually performed by Aamir himself. At the 44th Filmfare Awards, it won the Best Scene of the Year award, but Aamir later criticized himself for taking such an unnecessary risk.

Soundtrack
The music was composed by Jatin–Lalit. Lyrics were handled by Indeevar, Nitin Raikwar, Sameer and Vinod Mahendra. The film's soundtrack album sold 2.5million units in India, making it the year's fifth best-selling Bollywood soundtrack album.

Reception
The film was declared a hit by Box Office India and its total gross was 242 million.

Remake
The film was remade in Tamil in 2000 as Sudhandhiram. The remake rights were sold for inr 2500000.

title: Ghulam (film)


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Cuxton railway station

Cuxton railway station is on the Medway Valley Line in Kent, England, and lies well to the east of the village of Cuxton. It is 33 mi down the line from London Charing Cross via Strood and is situated between Strood and Halling. The station and all trains that serve the station are operated by Southeastern.

History
The APTIS-equipped ticket office, in an imposing building on the northbound platform, closed in September 1989; the building remains disused and is in poor condition although some efforts have been made in recent years to stem the decay and deter vandalism.

A PERTIS (Permit to Travel) ticket machine is located at the entrance to the northbound platform; this was installed in 2007.

The wooden level crossing gates were replaced with manually operated barriers controlled from the signalbox.

Services
All services at Cuxton are operated by Southeastern using EMUs.

The typical off-peak service in trains per hour is:
 * 2 tph to Strood
 * 2 tph to Paddock Wood via Maidstone West

A small number of morning, mid afternoon and late evening trains continue beyond Paddock Wood to Tonbridge.

On Sundays, the service is reduced to hourly in each direction.

title: Cuxton railway station


text:
User talk:80.97.242.101

Do not ad links to porn sites to Wikipedia. If you do this again, you will be blocked. Joyous 22:04, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:80.97.242.101


text:
Ramona (2000 TV series)

Ramona is a Mexican telenovela produced by Lucy Orozco for Televisa based on the 1884 novel Ramona by Helen Hunt Jackson. It premiered on April 3, 2000 and ended on July 14, 2000. The series stars Kate del Castillo, Eduardo Palomo, Helena Rojo, René Strickler and Sergio Sendel. It was the last telenovela of Eduardo Palomo, who died in 2003 of a heart attack.

Plot
Ramona returns to the family ranch after years of being educated by nuns. Ramona reunites with her mother and brother and childhood friend, the Indian Alejandro. Ramona falls in love with Alejandro and the couple is faced with the prejudices of being an interracial couple.

The family selects a suitable husband for Ramona and a wedding is planned. Family secrets come to light exposing the truth of Ramona's birth and her Indian heritage. The ill-fated romance continues when Alejandro kidnaps Ramona at the altar.

The two enjoy a short-lived honeymoon before Alejandro is taken captive by the authorities and is hanged. Ramona returns home to live with her mother and Felipe who has loved her since childhood. Ramona is pregnant with Alejandro's child, so she and Felipe get married.

This ill-fated romance is played out against the backdrop of the impending statehood of the Mexican territory, which ultimately becomes what is most often referred to as California.

Cast

 * Kate del Castillo as Maria Ramona Moreno Gonzaga
 * Eduardo Palomo as Alejandro de Asís
 * Helena Rojo as Doña Ramona Gonzaga Vda. de Moreno
 * René Strickler as Felipe Moreno Gonzaga
 * Sergio Sendel as Rex/Jack Green
 * Antonio Medellín as Don Pablo de Asís
 * Rafael Inclán as Juan Canito
 * Angelina Peláez as Martha Canito
 * Vanessa Bauche as Margarita Canito
 * René Casados as Angus O'Fail
 * Ricardo Blume as Ruy Coronado
 * Felipe Nájera as Fernando Coronado
 * Gabriela Murray as Analupe Coronado
 * Nicky Mondellini as Beatriz de Echague
 * Chela Castro as Perpetua de Echague
 * Luis Couturier as César de Echagüe
 * Juan Ríos Cantú as El Norteño
 * Álvaro Carcaño as Father Salvatierra
 * Kristoff as Davis
 * Raúl Ochoa as Merryl
 * Ramón Menéndez as Dr. Thomas
 * Isela Vega as Matea
 * Shaula Vega as Manuela
 * Roberto "Flaco" Guzmán as Nepo
 * Andrés García Jr. as Billy Dubois
 * Luis Bayardo as Father Sarriá
 * Paty Díaz as Carmen
 * Oscar Traven as Abraham McQueen
 * Montserrat Olivier as Doris
 * Eugenio Cobo as General Alonso Moreno
 * Jorge Capin as Pepe
 * Tony Dalton as Tom
 * Antonio Escobar as Antonio
 * Francisco Casasola as Lobo Solitario
 * Martín Rojas as Sebastián Lorenzo
 * Andreas Pearce as Prescott
 * Christian Tappan as Colorado
 * Zamorita as Negro Memphis
 * Ernesto Bog as Marcos
 * José Luis Avendaño as Lucio
 * Alicia del Lago as Sofía
 * Marcela Morett as Yahale
 * Hilda Nájera as Polita
 * Maja Schnellman as Betty
 * Ximena Adriana as Delgadima
 * Luis de Icaza as Douglas
 * Claudio Sorel as Dr. Oviedo
 * Daniel Gauvry as Dr. Brown

title: Ramona (2000 TV series)


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Convoy (1978 film)

Convoy is a 1978 American road action comedy film directed by Sam Peckinpah and starring Kris Kristofferson, Ali MacGraw, Ernest Borgnine, Burt Young, Madge Sinclair and Franklyn Ajaye. The film is based on the 1975 country and western novelty song "Convoy" by C. W. McCall. The film was made when the CB radio/trucking craze was at its peak in the United States, and followed the similarly themed films White Line Fever (1975) and Smokey and the Bandit (1977). The film received mixed reviews from critics; however, it was the most commercially successful film of Peckinpah's career.

The film initially concerns truck drivers being extorted by a sheriff in Arizona. One of them punches the sheriff during a brawl. Several rebellious truckers then attempt to cross the state line to New Mexico, while being pursued by the police. They also make plans to rescue an ally who is held captive in Texas, and who has been the victim of police brutality.

Plot

In the Arizona desert, truck driver Martin "Rubber Duck" Penwald is passed by a woman in a Jaguar XK-E, then runs into fellow truck drivers Pig Pen/Love Machine and Spider Mike. Another "trucker" had informed them over the C.B. that they are okay to increase their speed. The "trucker" turns out to be Sheriff "Dirty" Lyle Wallace, a long-time nemesis of the Duck, who extorts them for $70 each.

The truckers head on to Rafael's Glide-In where the Duck's sometime girlfriend and Lyle's wife, Violet, works as a waitress. Melissa, the driver of the XK-E, is also there; her Jaguar broke down and she had to sell it and some of her belongings in an effort to reach Dallas, as she is on her way to look for a job. The Duck offers Melissa a ride; Violet is unimpressed and ushers him away to give him a special birthday present. While they are away, Wallace shows up at the Glide-In checking plates. Pig Pen and Spider Mike start making fun of Wallace over the diner's base-station CB radio, leading to Wallace attempting to arrest Spider Mike for vagrancy. The Duck enters and tries to smooth things over, but Mike punches Wallace, leading to a brawl in the diner when some troopers arrive to assist Wallace. The assorted truckers prevail, and decide to head for the state line to avoid prosecution.

The truckers drive across Arizona and New Mexico, with Wallace in pursuit. Duck angers Wallace even further when he accidentally pushes him off the road and causes him to crash. When Wallace calls for reinforcements from the local police, Duck leads the truckers off the main highway and down a rough dusty desert trail, causing several of the police cars to crash, while Wallace's vehicle is crushed between Pig Pen and Spider Mike's rigs. As the rebellious truckers evade and confront the police, Rubber Duck becomes a reluctant hero.

The Governor of New Mexico, Jerry Haskins, meets Rubber Duck. About the same time, Wallace and a brutal Texas sheriff arrest Spider Mike (who had left the convoy to be with his wife after she gave birth to their son) in Alvarez, Texas. Wallace's plan is to use Mike as "bait" to trap Rubber Duck. A janitor at the jail, aware of the plan, send messages by CB radio that Spider Mike has been wrongfully arrested and beaten. Various truckers relay the message to New Mexico.

Rubber Duck ends the meeting with Haskins and leaves to rescue Spider Mike. Several other truckers join him and head east to Texas. The truckers eventually destroy half of the town and the jail and rescue Spider Mike. Knowing they will now be hunted by the authorities, the truckers head for the border of Mexico. On the way, Rubber Duck gets separated from the rest of the convoy when the others get stopped by a fake traffic accident staged by the local troopers. In a showdown near the United States-Mexico border, Rubber Duck is forced to face Wallace and a National Guard unit stationed on a bridge. Firing a machine gun, Wallace and the Guardsmen cause the truck's tanker trailer to explode, while Rubber Duck deliberately steers the tractor unit over the side of the bridge, plummeting into the churning river below, sending Duck presumably to his death.

A public funeral is held for Rubber Duck. A distraught Melissa is led to a school bus with several "long-haired friends of Jesus" inside. There she finds Rubber Duck in disguise sitting in the back - revealing that he had swum from the wreckage. The convoy takes to the road with the coffin in tow. As the bus passes Wallace, he spots the Duck and bursts into laughter.

Cast

 * Kris Kristofferson as Martin 'Rubber Duck' Penwald
 * Ali MacGraw as Melissa
 * Ernest Borgnine as Sheriff Lyle "Cottonmouth" Wallace of Natosha County, Arizona
 * Burt Young as Bobby "Love Machine" "Pig Pen"
 * Madge Sinclair as Widow Woman
 * Franklyn Ajaye as Spider Mike
 * Brian Davies as Chuck Arnoldi
 * Seymour Cassel as Governor Jerry Haskins
 * Cassie Yates as Violet
 * Walter Kelley as Federal Agent Hamilton
 * Billy Hughes as Pack Rat
 * Jorge Russek as Texas Alvarez Sheriff Tiny Alvarez
 * Patrice Martinez as Maria
 * Donnie Fritts as Reverend Sloane
 * Tommy Bush as Chief Stacey Love
 * Spec O'Donnell as 18 Wheel Eddie
 * Bill Coontz as Old Iguana

Production
Convoy was filmed almost entirely in the state of New Mexico. Production began in 1977 when the CB radio/trucking craze was at its peak, made during the same period as such films as Smokey and the Bandit (1977), Handle with Care (1977), Breaker! Breaker! (1977) and High-Ballin' (1978), as well as the television series Movin' On (1974–1976) and B. J. and the Bear (1979–1981).

During this period of Sam Peckinpah's life, it was reported he suffered from alcoholism and drug addiction. His four previous films, Cross of Iron (1977), The Killer Elite (1975), Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia (1974), and Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid (1973), had struggled at the box office and the director needed a genuine blockbuster success. Unhappy with the screenplay written by B. W. L. Norton, Peckinpah tried to encourage the actors to re-write, improvise and ad-lib their dialogue, with little success. In another departure from the script, Peckinpah attempted to add a new dimension to the film by casting a pair of black actors as members of the convoy: Madge Sinclair as Widow Woman and Franklyn Ajaye as Spider Mike.

Peckinpah's original rough cut of Convoy, assembled by Peckinpah and his long time editor Garth Craven in early 1978, had an estimated running time of 220 minutes. According to the book If They Move ... Kill 'Em!: The Life and Times of Sam Peckinpah by David Weddle and the Convoy documentary Passion & Poetry: Sam's Trucker Movie, Peckinpah's rough cut did not have any musical score other than the title song and "Blow The Gates To Heaven" by Richard Gillis (who had previously worked with Peckinpah on The Ballad of Cable Hogue). Jerry Fielding, who composed music for many of Peckinpah's previous films, was also hired to do the score for Convoy.

After a second screening of Peckinpah's rough cut, EMI executive Michael Deeley fired Peckinpah and Craven from the film in mid-March 1978 and promoted editor Graeme Clifford to supervising editor, to drastically reduce the running time of the film for a June 1978 release. Garner Simmons, author of Peckinpah: A Portrait in Montage, said that EMI and Clifford's version of Convoy "cut the guts out of it".

Questioned about the production of Convoy during an interview in July 1978 Peckinpah is quoted as saying “In preparing Cross of Iron I kept hearing on Armed Forces radio this song about “We’ll hit the gate goin’ 98, Let them truckers roll, Ten-Four!” and I said “By God, I’d like to be out on that highway!” And so I got out there, but I ended up not being there at all.”

The picture finished eleven days behind schedule at a cost of $12 million, more than double its original budget.

The famous scene where the tanker truck goes off a bridge and explodes was filmed in Needles, California, on a one-way bridge over the Colorado River between Arizona and Needles. The Needles City Fire Department provided fire protection during this scene. The bridge was removed soon after as a new span connected the two sides of the river.

Peckinpah has a cameo as a sound man during an interview scene. Rubber Duck's truck is generally represented in the film as a 1977 Mack RS712LST although several other Mack RS700L series trucks were used as a double and as stationary props. The restored “Second Unit” 1970 Mack RS731LST on-camera double truck tractor and the only original remaining tank trailer are returning in late 2023 to be on display at the National Museum of Transportation in St. Louis, Missouri.

Release
The film was released in Japan in mid-June 1978 before opening in 700 theaters in the United States and Canada on June 28, 1978.

Critical reception
Though Convoy was a commercial success and maintains a robust cult following, it received mixed reviews from critics upon its initial release. It holds an approval rating of 56% on Rotten Tomatoes, based on 18 reviews.

Vincent Canby of The New York Times wrote that the film "has been made before much less expensively and much more entertainingly by directors with no aspirations to be artists. 'Convoy' is a bad joke that backfires on the director. He has neither the guts to play the movie straight as melodrama nor the sense of humor to turn it into a kind of 'Smokey and the Bandit' comedy. The movie is a big, costly, phony exercise in myth-making, machismo, romance-of-the-open-road nonsense and incredible self-indulgence." Arthur D. Murphy of Variety wrote, "Sam Peckinpah's 'Convoy' starts out as 'Smokey And The Bandit,' segues into either 'Moby Dick' or 'Les Miserables,' and ends in the usual script confusion and disarray, the whole stew peppered with the vulgar excess of random truck crashes and miscellaneous destruction ... Every few minutes there's some new roadblock to run, alternating with pithy comments on The Meaning Of It All. There's a whole lot of nothing going on here." Gene Siskel of the Chicago Tribune gave the film 1.5 stars out of 4 and wrote, "Save for a car sailing through the roof of a barn, 'Convoy' is sluggish entertainment, the first road race film in which I rooted for the cops against the good guys. Kristofferson's getting caught would have made a shorter and better picture." Charles Champlin of the Los Angeles Times called the film "a multivehicle wreck of a movie" and "slack stuff, missing as a sizzling love story, missing as the kind of funny anti-authoritarian statement the song was, arriving well past the peak of the CB phenomenon, making no statement one way or the other about trucks or truckers." Gary Arnold of The Washington Post wrote that the film "suggests a shotgun misalliance of 'Billy Jack' and 'Smokey and the Bandit,'" and all Peckinpah could do with the "stupid material" was "to pretend he's getting somewhere by noisily spinning his wheels. More often than not even his visual pyrotechnics falls short, and he's left trying to rationalize nonsensical characters and conflicts by imposing his sentimentalities about men of war on them." John Pym of The Monthly Film Bulletin was generally positive, writing, "What sets this apart from other recent citizen-band road movies is the skill with which Peckinpah redefines the artifacts of the Western, which is what Convoy transparently remains. It has lines of cavalrymen, a cattle drive, a secret trail to Mexico, a circular camp site, innocent bar-room fisticuffs and a hero who, while caring nothing for women, at the same time reveres the married man and his homestead ... The adroitness of mood is perhaps best characterized by the moment when, his audience having been softened by the surrounding exuberance, Peckinpah slips into place such a poignantly sentimental moment as the departure of Spider Mike for his hometown."

Empire gave the film a 3 out of 5 stars, stating "A noisy but enjoyable destruction derby of a film, sadly with none of the subtlety, invention or skill of Spielberg's Duel."

Box office
The film grossed $4 million in Japan in its first 9 days. Convoy was the highest grossing picture of Peckinpah's career, grossing $45 million at the United States and Canada box office.

Home media
On April 28, 2015, Kino Lorber released Convoy on DVD and Blu-ray.

Soundtrack
Features:
 * "Convoy" by C. W. McCall (a new version, written especially for the film, with saltier language)
 * "Lucille" by Kenny Rogers
 * "Cowboys Don't Get Lucky All the Time" by Gene Watson
 * "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue" by Crystal Gayle
 * "I Cheated on a Good Woman's Love" by Billy "Crash" Craddock
 * "Okie From Muskogee" by Merle Haggard
 * "Southern Nights" by Glen Campbell
 * "Blanket on the Ground" by Billie Jo Spears
 * "Keep on the Sunny Side" by Doc Watson
 * "Walk Right Back" by Anne Murray

Novelization
A paperback novelization of the film by screenwriter B.W.L. Norton (ISBN 9780440112983) was published in 1978. A more serious edge and less humor was given to the film's story and there are some changes and additions, such as no mention of Spider Mike being African-American, a definite hatred between Rubber Duck and Wallace, a fight between Rubber Duck and Wallace after Spider Mike is broken out of jail, Widow Woman getting married (for the fifth time) and a background story given to Melissa.

title: Convoy (1978 film)


text:
Ars Technica

Ars Technica is a website covering news and opinions in technology, science, politics, and society, created by Ken Fisher and Jon Stokes in 1998. It publishes news, reviews, and guides on issues such as computer hardware and software, science, technology policy, and video games.

Ars Technica was privately owned until May 2008, when it was sold to Condé Nast Digital, the online division of Condé Nast Publications. Condé Nast purchased the site, along with two others, for $25 million and added it to the company's Wired Digital group, which also includes Wired and, formerly, Reddit. The staff mostly works from home and has offices in Boston, Chicago, London, New York City, and San Francisco.

The operations of Ars Technica are funded primarily by advertising, and it has offered a paid subscription service since 2001.

History
Ken Fisher, who serves as the website's current editor-in-chief, and Jon Stokes created Ars Technica in 1998. Its purpose was to publish computer hardware and software-related news articles and guides; in their words, "the best multi-OS, PC hardware, and tech coverage possible while ... having fun, being productive, and being as informative and as accurate as possible". "Ars technica" is a Latin phrase that translates to "Art of Technology". The website published news, reviews, guides, and other content of interest to computer enthusiasts. Writers for Ars Technica were geographically distributed across the United States at the time; Fisher lived in his parents' house in Boston, Stokes in Chicago, and the other writers in their respective cities.

On May 19, 2008, Ars Technica was sold to Condé Nast Digital, the online division of Condé Nast Publications. The sale was part of a purchase by Condé Nast Digital of three unaffiliated websites costing $25 million in total: Ars Technica, Webmonkey, and HotWired. Ars Technica was added to the company's Wired Digital group, which included Wired and Reddit. In an interview with The New York Times, Fisher said other companies offered to buy Ars Technica and the site's writers agreed to a deal with Condé Nast because they felt it offered them the best chance to turn their "hobby" into a business. Fisher, Stokes, and the eight other writers at the time were employed by Condé Nast. Layoffs at Condé Nast in November 2008 affected websites owned by the company "across the board", including Ars Technica.

On May 5, 2015, Ars Technica launched its United Kingdom site to expand its coverage of issues related to the UK and Europe. The UK site began with around 500,000 readers and had reached roughly 1.4 million readers a year after its launch. In September 2017, Condé Nast announced that it was significantly downsizing its Ars Technica UK arm, and laid off all but one member of its permanent editorial staff.

Content
The content of articles published by Ars Technica has generally remained the same since its creation in 1998 and is categorized by four types: news, guides, reviews, and features. News articles relay current events. Ars Technica also hosts OpenForum, a free Internet forum for the discussion of a variety of topics.

Originally, most news articles published by the website were aggregated from other technology-related websites. Ars Technica provided short commentaries on the news, generally a few paragraphs, and a link to the original source. After being purchased by Condé Nast, Ars Technica began publishing more original news, investigating topics, and interviewing sources themselves. A significant portion of the news articles published there now are original. Relayed news is still published on the website, ranging from one or two sentences to a few paragraphs.

Ars Technica's features are long articles that go into great depth on their subject. For example, the site published a guide on CPU architecture in 1998 named "Understanding CPU caching and performance". An article in 2009 discussed in detail the theory, physics, mathematical proofs, and applications of quantum computers. The website's 18,000-word review of Apple's first iPad described everything from the product's packaging to the specific type of integrated circuits it uses.

Ars Technica is written in a less-formal tone than that found in a traditional journal. Many of the website's regular writers have postgraduate degrees, and many work for academic or private research institutions. Website cofounder Jon Stokes published the computer architecture textbook Inside The Machine in 2007; John Timmer performed postdoctoral research in developmental neurobiology; Until 2013, Timothy Lee was a scholar at the Cato Institute, a public-policy institute, which republished Ars Technica articles by him. Biology journal Disease Models & Mechanisms called Ars Technica a "conduit between researchers and the public" in 2008.

On September 12, 2012, Ars Technica recorded its highest daily traffic ever with its iPhone 5 event coverage. It recorded 15.3 million page views, 13.2 million of which came from its live blog platform of the event.

Staff
Jennifer Ouelette, the former science editor of Gizmodo, contributes science and culture coverage. Beth Mole, who has a PhD in microbiology, handles Ars' health coverage. She was formerly at Science News. Eric Berger, formerly of the Houston Chronicle, covers space exploration. John Timmer is the science editor for Ars. He formerly taught scientific writing and science journalism at Stony Brook University and Weill Cornell Medical College. He earned his undergraduate degree from Columbia University and his PhD from University of California, Berkeley and worked as a postdoc at Memorial Sloan Kettering.

Former Hardware and Windows editor Peter Bright was convicted in 2020 of attempted child enticement.

Revenue
The cost of operating Ars Technica has always been funded primarily by advertising. Originally handled by Federated Media Publishing, selling advertising space on the website is now managed by Condé Nast. In addition to online advertising, Ars Technica has sold subscriptions to the website since 2001, now named Ars Pro and Ars Pro++ subscriptions (previously known as Ars Premier). Subscribers are not shown advertisements, and receive benefits including the ability to see exclusive articles, post in certain areas of the Ars Technica forum, and participate in live chat rooms with notable people in the computer industry. To a lesser extent, revenue is also collected from content sponsorship. A series of articles about the future of collaboration was sponsored by IBM, and the site's Exploring Datacenters section is sponsored by data-management company NetApp. Ars Technica also collects revenue from affiliate marketing by advertising deals and discounts from online retailers, and from the sale of Ars Technica-branded merchandise.

Advertisement block
On March 5, 2010, Ars Technica experimentally blocked readers who used Adblock Plus—one of several computer programs that stop advertisements from being displayed in a web browser—from viewing the website. Fisher estimated 40% of the website's readers had the software installed at the time. The next day, the block was lifted, and the article "Why Ad Blocking is devastating to the sites you love" was published on Ars Technica, imploring readers not to use the software on websites they care about:

"... blocking ads can be devastating to the sites you love. I am not making an argument that blocking ads is a form of stealing, or is immoral, or unethical ... It can result in people losing their jobs, it can result in less content on any given site, and it definitely can affect the quality of content. It can also put sites into a real advertising death spin."

The block and article were controversial, generating articles on other websites about them, and the broader issue of advertising ethics. Readers of Ars Technica generally followed Fisher's persuasion; the day after his article was published, 25,000 readers who used the software had allowed the display of advertisements on Ars Technica in their browser, and 200 readers had subscribed to Ars Premier.

In February 2016, Fisher noted, "That article lowered the ad-block rate by 12 percent, and what we found was that the majority of people blocking ads on our site were doing it because other sites were irritating them". In response to increasing use of ad blockers, Ars Technica identify readers who filter out advertisements and ask them to support the site by several means.

title: Ars Technica