text:
Talk:Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca

Place in Chicano literature ???
Seriously, this item is weird/irrelevant/self-promotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.154.198.18 (talk) 18:46, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Low Importance?
I would urge that this article be upgraded from "low importance." Smallchief (talk • contribs) 11:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC) Cabeza de Caca Laca

Cabeca
me.

Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca travel with a ship alot

 * My guess is an older-fashioned (or Portuguese-style?) spelling with c-cedilla, which used to be more or less interchangeable with z. - Mustafaa 10:02, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * In his days, it was spelled "cabeça". That's how he signed his name. --Jerome Potts (talk) 19:51, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Movie
Is there a specific site referring to the movie cabeza de vaca? Chiquitobonito 03:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * "Cabeza de Vaca" at IMDb.com - Prometheusg 06:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca moved to Cabeza de Vaca
Why move the article from the gent's full name to only a part of it? Seems somewhat non-standard to me. –Hajor 02:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

it makes sense to revert it if you think necessary but i doubt anybody is going to type Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca. redirection would be fine. Orangetuesday 05:40, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I'm going to move it back; doesn't feel right having the article located at what is merely his (and a bunch of other people's) apellido materno after all. But while I'm at it, I'll make sure all the necessary redirects without diacrits, etc. are in place. Cheers, –Hajor 13:04, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

 * And also, sometimes, people are lazy and type up just half of the name. sometimes, people have to search him up and was given Cabeza de Vaca like me. tsyoshi 15:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm a little concerned about the satement that his birth name was Willis Yankovich. Blg999 (talk) 00:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Two dodgy statements removed
If anyone has a source for these statements (from the "trivia" section), please replace them, and include a citation.

 * He was the lead leader with the Golden Hind, which is the name of the ship that Sir Francis Drake sailed around the world in.
 * In one awful storm off Cuba, the storm lifted one of his ships into a tree. Really...

Actually, that second statement is somewhat correct. Although it was Narváez' ship, not Cabeza de Vaca's, Cabeza de Vaca was in charge at the time. Two ships were lost in that hurricane which also destroyed Trinidad; one ship was found in a wrecked palm tree. I'm not going to add it back in, because I intend to clean this article up after I get through with the Narváez expedition article. Anyone else can feel free to put it in. See Narváez expedition.

Here's a reference: '''Schneider, Paul (2006). Brutal Journey: the epic story of the first crossing of North America. Henry Holt and Company, pp. 56.'''

Prometheusg 16:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyone got any info as to family?
Does anyone know if he had brothers, sisters, wife, kids, what his parents did, anything like that?

His paternal grandfather was Pedro de Vera, a war hero who fought in the Canary Islands and Granada. His father's name was Francisco de Vera. His mother was Doña Tereza Cabeza de Vaca. All I could findPrometheusg 08:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

How many men were in the Narváez expedition?
I'm getting tired of edit warring with an anonymous user.
 * The Narváez expedition article says "The crew initially numbered about 600."
 * Since last year, the Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca article has said "...only survivors of the party of 600 men."
 * This external site says "The fleet he took along consisted of[five vessels, in which went about 600 men."
 * This anonymous user showed up from nowhere today and made the following series of edits:
 * (1) From "600" to "70,000"
 * (2) From "70,000" to "600"
 * (3) From "600" to "250-300"
 * At this point, I reviewed the article history and related articles and reverted it to 600.
 * A minute later, he re-reverted it:
 * (4) From "600" to "250-300".

I'm now reverting it back to 600, on the theory that this person is just entertaining himself. -- Jim Douglas 02:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The expedition left Spain with about 600 people. That includes troops, officers, slaves, sailors, wives, daughters, and servants. Of those, about 450 were actual troops, officers, and slaves. By the time they left Cuba, after desertions, shipwrecks, and a partial replenishment of troops, they numbered 400 men. Prometheusg 09:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Survivors
The text reads: "he, and eighty others, were the only survivors of the party of 600 men. The four were enslaved by various Native American tribes." Well, is it four or is it eighty? Kdammers 07:21, 3 March  2007 (UTC)

 * Eighty survived the shipwrecking onto the Texas coast. Over a period of a few years all but four died off.  The four survivors made their way across Texas, northern Mexico, and New Mexico (and possibly Arizona) in 1535. I keep meaning to fix this article, finish the Narvàez expedition, and possible start an article on the journey itself. Prometheusg 13:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

When did he traverse the SWUSA?
I can't find any-where in article that says when he was wandering etc., following the Nav. exped. - When was it? Kdammers 07:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

cabeza de vaca and etevanico
```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.186.193.142 (talk) 17:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

family
does anyone know who his parents were? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.186.193.142 (talk) 17:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Categorization: Slaves
Sinclair talk/contribs 14:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Really? Who says that's the "general view"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.37.166 (talk) 22:05, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

migrated edit request
Please add this bibliography to the Cabeza de Vaca entry:
 * MAURA, Juan Francisco. Alvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca: el gran burlador de América. Parnaseo/Lemir. Valencia:Universidad de Valencia, 2008.http://parnaseo.uv.es/lemir/Textos/Maura.pdf
 * MAURA, Juan Francisco. Carta de Luis Ramírez a su padre desde el Brasil. Introducción, edición, transcripción y notas, Juan Francisco Maura. Lemir (Departamento de Filología Hispánica de la Universidad de Valencia),  2007.

Thank you Servicio (talk) 09:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Copied from the above user's talk page.--Tznkai (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Alexf(talk) 15:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Cultural references - Lord Buckley
I first heard of Cabeza de Vaca through Lord Buckley's comedy routine "The Gasser", a 50's jive talking rendition of the Diaries.

While the language is odd, Buckley is strictly correct on the facts and draws a great sense of mystical wonder from CdV's conversion from Conquistador to Healer. The last lines are drawn from the diaries [I quote from memory]: "There is a great power above   That when used in beauty and honor    Can and will cause miracles.    When you use it, it spreads before you like a garden --    When you do not use it, it recedes from you."

Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca, fifteen-hundred-and-leapin'-ten

If we mention the movie, then The Gasser ought to be linked as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timbabwe (talk • contribs) 13:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, you might have provided some pointers (links), that might've helped. --Jerome Potts (talk) 02:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Cabeza de Vaca
Incluyo en la bibliografía el nuevo ensayo histórico sobre Cabeza de Vaca, que Rubén Caba y Eloísa Gómez-Lucena han publicado en Edhasa, Barcelona, 2008 tras recorrer y fijar la ruta de Cabeza de Vaca desde Tampa (Florida) hasta Culiacán (México). Gracias. Leo Fomento —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.146.129.1 (talk) 12:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Leo Fomento, 8 February 2009

New Bibliographie about Cabeza de Vaca
Please add this bibliography to the Cabeza de Vaca entry:
 * CABA, Rubén y GÓMEZ-LUCENA, Eloísa. La odisea de Cabeza de Vaca: Tras los pasos de Álvar Núñez por tierras americanas. Col. Terra Incógnica (Ensayo histórico). Barcelona: Edhasa, 2008. ISBN:978-84-350-2008.
 * CABA, Rubén y GÓMEZ-LUCENA, Eloísa. ''Cabeza de Vaca: El Ulises del Nuevo Mundo". Clío Historia, nº 84, Octubre 2008.

How did he die
There is no reference as to how he died. Also, after he was exonerated regarding the Buenos Aires situation, what became of him? --68.51.72.144 (talk) 03:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

List of Native Americans
An editor removed most of the list of tribes noted in the travels. While the list is long, a better solution might be to create an attached page. I'm putting them back in the article.--Parkwells (talk) 14:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Cabeza de Vaca / Cabeza la Vaca
Charming as the story is about Cabeza de Vaca's gaining his name from his ancestor's using a cow's head in battle against the Moors etc. etc., could it be perhaps more likely that his mother simply originated from the village of Cabeza la Vaca in today's province of Badajoz? I like a good story, but I like even more a real one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stiivyn (talk • contribs) 05:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Interesting. His birth place, Jerez de la Frontera, is not too terribly far from there. Do you want to prove it ? --Jerome Potts (talk) 20:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Moved Italians to expedition article
A long list of Italians as part of this expedition, while interesting, is not necessary in this article on Cabeza de Vaca; moved it to the more appropriate Narvaez expedition.Parkwells (talk) 18:03, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Steel Melting
Horseshoes were made of steel and steel melting was not possible until Benjamin Huntsman discovered the crucible melting process in 1740. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel. Ebanobre (talk) 10:43, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * If that's so, how could horseshoes before 1740 be made of steel? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Please Til, read about something before you change it. Steel was only made by hammering pig iron that was obtained in the blast furnace mixing Iron ore with coal. Once obtained it could not be melt again until Benjamin Huntsman discovered the crucible melting process in 1740.--Ebanobre (talk) 10:45, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I am a Metallurgic engineer and I have changed the page in the place where it said "melted" for "used", because this was technically impossible at that time. I have substituted it for "used" because, horseshoes at that time were done hammering a piece of pig iron to convert it into mild steel. Once converted it could not be melt again (at that time) because the melting point of the mild steel is much higher than the one of the pig iron, and the forges of the time could not reach that temperature even with big bellows. It was only Benjamin Huntsman who discovered the crucible melting process in 1740 the first that could melt mild steel.

 * According to technical wikipedia rules that is original research because you are contradicting sources based on your own personal expertise and you didn't bring a reliable source, let alone one making claims specifically about the article topic. But according to common sense, I have good faith that what you just said is an essentially correct explanation, so as for me personally, I'm not going to touch that one with a 20 foot pole, and if anyone else wants to quibble about it, it is all on them...! Cheers, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:30, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

 * I agree that nothing is lost by changing the wording, and that it seems to be more accurate that way.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Addition to Lead
The following paragraph was added to the Lead, but it is not supported by content in the article. It is also somewhat confusing to me - is it so unusual that explorers would present their accounts positively in the hopes of getting Crown funding for continued travel? Needs more explanation. I have edited it to improve the English, as I've done to other additions in the article. It would be better for editors to identify which critics, rather than using the term "some critics" when there are issues of criticism or controversy.Parkwells (talk) 13:46, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

"However, some critics argue against this claim and classify him with a group of writers who had motives to present their work in a positive light for the king, who supported such expeditions, and could continue financial assistance for successful ventures."(Herrera, Spencer R. "Chicano Writers." World Literature in Spanish: An Encyclopedia. Ed. Maureen Ihrie and Salvador A. Oropesa. Vol. 1. Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-CLIO, 2011. pp.183-184, Gale Virtual Reference Library. Web. 5 Dec. 2014)

My note: Considering that expeditions were dependent on Crown support, it seems unexceptional that explorers would want to present the best accounts of their efforts. what is "the claim" they are arguing against? Is there more to the criticism and what exactly is it? That he was not sympathetic to the Indians? Also, this statement in the Lead should be derived from a fuller discussion in the article, but this topic does not appear to be discussed. Parkwells (talk) 13:46, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Needs improved sources
While many apparently solid academic sources are listed as references, the article cites chiefly from two websites, neither of which have footnotes, and which appear to be resources for teachers. This is disappointing for a person and topic that has been extensively studied by academics. Perhaps new editors could try to use improved secondary sources with footnotes.Parkwells (talk) 14:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The origin of the Cabeza de Vaca surname is also a legend. Name as such appears much before 1212 especially in the cartularies from the area of Burgos. To have an article also on the mythical and legendary forebear is also stretching it a bit too much. There is no documentary proof to sustain such myth.--Maragm (talk) 07:29, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Mala Cosa
A particular story in the tradition of the Avavares could help explain the fear some of the natives had towards the Spaniards. Various native populations reported the existence of a man who had terrorized the people of a variety of communities. The character had gone into the homes of people, had taken victims and had cut them open, he was called “Mala Cosa”. Described as a bearded and short man, which would appear in some cases dressed as a woman, would enter peoples homes to perform surgical operations cutting pieces of flesh, taking peoples entrails out and throwing them into the fire, he would lacerate peoples arms, or sever limbs, he would then “pass his hand over the separated parts and the arm came together again, healing instantly” (Cabeza de Vaca). The natives mentioned that they had often offered tribute to this figure, often food or drink yet he would not consume it. The fact that Mala Cosa was bearded, as the survivors of the Narvaez Expedition, and although he would terrorize the people of the villages, he also worked in the realm of healing, therefore a clear comparison could be drawn between Mala Cosa and the Europeans and African. The account of Mala Cosa could also help in understanding the respect some natives had for the party of travelers, based not only in their own merits as healers and traders, but also because they fell into pre-established notions in the native’s outlook. In the accounts of Mala Cosa it was said that when he was asked his provenance he would point towards the ground, this on the other hand allowed the Spaniards to utilize Mala Cosa to explain the dynamics of the Christian heaven and hell, associating Mala Cosa with the devil. The account of Mala Cosa also adds to why these travelers became so widely accepted in the area, presenting themselves as the antithesis of this evil creature.

Does any one know more information about Mala Cosa?

Jose-sole (talk) 21:18, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Conquest of the Canary Islands
While reading this article I looked up the years for the Conquest of the Canary Islands. It seems they ended in 1496/1498. I find it hard to believe that an 8 year old (assuming he was born around 1490 as stated) would be involved in this and even if that was the case made Governor? See text from the section discussing his early life:

"He was appointed chamberlain for the house of a noble family in his teen years then participated in the conquest of the Canary Islands where he was appointed a governor.[4]"

Is it possible it was his grandfather Pedro de Vera that this is referring to?

This is from the Wikipedia Page, "Conquest of the Canary Islands":

"b) Guanche resistance and Castilian divisions from the close of 1478 until 1481. This period is defined by aboriginal resistance in the mountainous interior, the lack of men and materials and internal disputes between the invaders. During this stage Juan Rejón was dismissed on the orders of the Catholic Monarchs. His place was taken by Pedro Fernández de Algaba who was subsequently executed by order of the deposed Rejón. The naming of Pedro de Vera as the new governor of the island and the arrest of Juan Rejón put an end to the in-fighting that had continued until 1481." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.101.176.115 (talk) 03:02, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Statements Regarding Cabeza's Motives Moved to Talk Page
The following wikipedia user statement has been moved to the talk page after viewing the statements contained in the original reference.

"Wikipedia page: Many scholars question if his personal motives may have biased his account. For instance, he hoped the account would add to his prestige in Spain. Due to this, some scholars argue that in order to improve his own standing, he did not report the human rights violations committed by Narvaez against the native peoples before his death. Some academics are puzzled as to why he failed to do so, suggesting that there are some mysteries remaining in regards to his motives for writing The Relation the way that he did. "

In the original article by Andres Resendez the author states that there are only two surviving testimonies of the Narváez expedition. The author also states: "Neither text tells us much about how violently the members of the Pánfilo de Narváez expedition treated the natives of Florida."

Cabeza certainly did relay to the Spanish crown some examples of the deplorable treatment that some of the natives had received at the hands of particular Spanish officers in his account.

Also, one of the purposes of writing his own account of his travels in America was to petition to the King of Spain to both establish a Christian mission in the land and to establish the native peoples in their own land under the governance of Spain.

Therefore I saw it fit to move these unsubstantiated claims off the main page.

Source:

A Scribe (talk) 09:00, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Could someone please explain while the small edits I made today are in a queue for review.
A first for me. Thanks. deisenbe (talk) 22:24, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Narvaez Trip incomplete
Towards the end of the section on the Narvaez expedition (second to the last paragraph) it says:

"Cabeza de Vaca and the three other men reached Mexico City. From there he sailed back to Europe in 1537."

However, you can't sail from Mexico City to anywhere else. There are a couple of lakes, but no river leading to the Gulf of Mexico. The photo of the route in the article also shows the expedition ending in Mexico City. Other maps show the expedition continuing to Veracruz and from there sailing off.

Even if we can't verify that it was Veracruz where he took off, the article ought to say something about him leaving Mexico City and travelling to the coast and then leaving for Spain? Do we have any info on who he sailed with or what ship he sailed on?

Also, with regard to the incompleteness of the trip, some maps show Estevanico turning about at Mexico City and continuing north into Arizona and New Mexico. There's a brief mention of this in the section on Representation in other media. The first paragraph talks about "the Moors Account" - a novel and movie. The description sounds to me as if it refers only to this latter journey by Estevanico. Does it include Cabeza de Vaca's portion of the trip at all - at least from the point the two met? If not it shouldn't be included here at all, but moved to the article on Estevanico. If this movie or novel does cover part of C de V's part of the journey prior to Mexico City, that should be clearer.

That paragraph also makes it seem as if Estevanico's entire expedition was mythical. Was it, or was it just the part about his death. There's a Wikipedia article on Estevanico, which suggests the expedition was real, but that there's some doubt about his death.

If this movie and novel don't feature C de V's trip prior to Mexico at all, it should be deleted. If it does, it should say that and leave the details about E to his article. Ileanadu (talk) 19:19, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Did Cabeza de Vaca really travel to Arizona & New Mexico
In the Narvaez expedition, it says: "Traveling mostly with this small group, Cabeza de Vaca explored what is now the U.S. state of Texas, as well as ... and possibly smaller portions of New Mexico and Arizona."

This is the only mention of C de V travelling to New Mexico and Arizona. The route map certainly doesn't show him anywhere near those areas. Estevanico's expedition may have gone to those states, but that's after they parted ways and it was no longer the Narvaez expedition. What's the basis for including these areas? Is there a source supporting this possibility? Ileanadu (talk) 19:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 February 2019
Change ", presumably from the diseases Cabeza de Vaca and his companions unknowingly exposed them to" to ", possibly from diseases carried by Cabeza de Vaca and his companions" or omit the phrase entirely; it is entirely speculative and "unknowingly exposed them to" seems to be motivated more by a concern that readers might suppose that Cabeza de Vaca had brought smallpox-infected blankets with him than one for accurate description. 73.14.62.105 (talk) 05:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ Gap9551 (talk) 08:13, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Translation issue
La Relación should be translated as The Narrative, not The Relation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:D400:1530:1999:67FC:52B2:8EE2 (talk) 12:56, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes and no. Actually the book was originally published in English as "The Account" not "The Narrative".'Lironcareto (talk) 09:17, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Children's book by Jeannette Mirsky
Just saying there's an excellent YA novel on Cabeza de Vaca from 1972 by Jeannette Mirsky, "The Gentle Conquistadors." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CF:5BC4:A864:2991:7C15:D968:2E7D (talk) 08:34, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2019
I would like to add that cabeza de vaca means cow head 69.232.48.220 (talk) 15:54, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: NiciVampireHeart 22:07, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Place of Birth
The writer states: "Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca was born around 1490 in the Castilian town of Jerez de la Frontera, Cádiz." However, Jerez de la Frontera is in Andalusia. This really needs to be corrected urgently. Thanks. Asof-ed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asof-ed (talk • contribs) 19:12, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

 * At that time it belonged to the Kingdom of Castile, so it was a Castillian town. Like New York was once a british town, Lord Stirling was born as a subject of the Province of New York of the Greater British Empire, or whatever it was called at the time and not the USA. 2A02:21B4:BA48:2400:88F8:BCCA:5927:E614 (talk) 22:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2020
I am fluent in Spanish and I think I can change some of the translations 69.147.2.246 (talk) 16:21, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Dylsss (talk) 16:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2020
--Hahply (talk) 19:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC) CAN I add some information to the page that I just researched about Cabeza de Vaca. Hahply (talk) 19:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Until you've made a few more edits, you can request specific changes here on this talk page on the form "Please change X to Y", citing reliable sources. – Thjarkur (talk) 20:16, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2020
2804:14C:E1:9E63:B95F:257F:1A3A:8DF5 (talk) 20:49, 17 December 2020 (UTC) "O sobrenome mais nobre de Álvar Nuñez era herança de dona Teresa e fora concedido à família dela em 1212, quando um certo Martin Alhaja descobriu uma estreita passagem entre as escarpas rochosas da Serra Nevada e a assinalou com um crânio de uma vaca. Por esta passagem cruzaram os exércitos dos reis de Castela, Aragon e Navarro para vencerem a importante batalha de Navas de Tolosa, em 12 de junho de 1212. Agradecidos, os soberanos concederam ao camponês o título de nobreza que mudaria definitivamente o nome da família."
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Also, please make requests in English if possible. If you need assistance in Portuguese, you can request assistance from users listed at WP:Local Embassy, or visit the Portuguese Wikipedia here. ‑‑ El Hef  ( Meep? ) 20:59, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The IPA matches neither 16th century pronunciation nor modern Jerez de la Frontera accent nor modern Mexican Spanish language nor Paraguay or Buenos Aires dialects nor the es-PE sound file. It is however the pronunciation (I guess) in a northern Spanish accent. Is there a guideline on IPA for pluricentric languages and moveable subjects? --Error (talk) 12:43, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

 * You're right, what the heck is "Aivar Nuñes Cabesa de Uaca"?! Either go for "Álbar Núnyeds Kabedsa de Baka" for the time he lived in or "Álbar Núnyeth Kabetha de Baka" in anglo way trying to speak in modern northern spanish peninsular way. The provided speaker is pulling the pronunciation out of his armpits... 2A02:21B4:BA48:2400:88F8:BCCA:5927:E614 (talk) 22:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Geography
The article speaks of his travels across "what is now the American Southwest", but the most notable part of his journey occurred in what is now the South*east*, namely Florida and the other Gulf Coast states. Recommend changing "American Southwest" to "American South", "American Gulf Coast", "American Southeast and Southwest" or something similar. 63.140.96.244 (talk) 20:23, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Is anyone still monitoring this talk page? It's been nearly three months, and this change has neither been made nor rejected.

66.230.109.87 (talk) 04:43, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Why are assumed anglos allowed to gatekeep a historic person from Iberia?!
Ai se that, what siims to bi anglos (dosn't matter ther fenotipe) ar allued to gatekiip the histori of a man from the aibirian peninsula. Whai is this allaud? 2A02:21B4:BA48:2400:88F8:BCCA:5927:E614 (talk) 22:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca


text:
Ensoulment

In religion and philosophy, ensoulment is the moment at which a human or other being gains a soul. Some belief systems maintain that a soul is newly created within a developing child and others, especially in religions that believe in reincarnation, that the soul is pre-existing and added at a particular stage of development.

In the time of Aristotle, it was widely believed that the human soul entered the forming body at 40 days (male embryos) or 90 days (female embryos), and quickening was an indication of the presence of a soul. Other religious views are that ensoulment happens at the moment of conception; or when the child takes the first breath after being born; at the formation of the nervous system and brain; at the first detectable sign of brain activity; or when the fetus is able to survive independently of the uterus (viability).

The concept is closely related to debates on the morality of abortion as well as the morality of contraception. Religious beliefs that human life has an innate sacredness to it have motivated many statements by spiritual leaders of various traditions over the years; however, the three matters are not exactly parallel, given that various figures have argued that some kind of life without a soul, in various contexts, still has a moral worth that must be considered.

Ancient Greeks
Among Greek scholars, Hippocrates (c.460 – c.370 BC) believed that the embryo was the product of male semen and a female factor. But Aristotle (384 – 322 BC) held that only male semen gave rise to an embryo, while the female only provided a place for the embryo to develop, (a concept he acquired from the preformationist Pythagoras). Aristotle believed a fetus in early gestation has the soul of a vegetable, then of an animal, and only later became "animated" with a human soul by "ensoulment". For him, ensoulment occurred 40 days after conception for male fetuses and 90 days after conception for female fetuses, the stage at which, it was held, movement is first felt within the womb and pregnancy was certain. This is called epigenesis, which is "the theory that the germ is brought into existence (by successive accretions), and not merely developed, in the process of reproduction", in contrast to the theory of preformation, which asserts the "supposed existence of all the parts of an organism in rudimentary form in the egg or the seed;" modern embryology, which finds both that an organism begins with an inherited genetic code and that embryonic stem cells can develop epigenetically into a variety of cell types, may be seen as supporting a balance between the views.

Stoicism maintained that the living animal soul was received only at birth, through contact with the outer air, and was transformed into a rational soul only at fourteen years of age. Epicureanism saw the origin of the soul (considered to consist of only a small number of atoms even in adults) as simultaneous with conception. Pythagoreanism also considered ensoulment to occur at conception.

Historical development
From the 12th century, when the West first came to know more of Aristotle than his works on logic, medieval declarations by Popes and theologians on ensoulment were based on the Aristotelian hypothesis. Aristotle's epigenetic view of successive life principles ("souls") in a developing human embryo—first a vegetative and then a sensitive or animal soul, and finally an intellective or human soul, with the higher levels able to carry out the functions also of the lower levels —was the prevailing view among early Christians, including Tertullian, Augustine, and Jerome. Lars Østnor says this view was only "presaged" by Augustine, who belongs to a period later than that of early Christianity. According to David Albert Jones, this distinction appeared among Christian writers only in the late fourth and early fifth century, while the earlier writers made no distinction between formed and unformed, a distinction that Saint Basil of Caesarea explicitly rejected. While the Hebrew text of the Bible only required a fine for the loss of a fœtus, whatever its stage of development, the Greek Septuagint (LXX) translation of the Hebrew text, a pre-Christian translation that the early Christians used, introduced a distinction between a formed and an unformed fœtus and treated destruction of the former as murder. It has been commented that "the LXX could easily have been used to distinguish human from non-human fœtuses and homicidal from non-homicidal abortions, yet the early Christians, until the time of Augustine in the fifth century, did not do so."

The view of early Christians on the moment of ensoulment is also said to have been not the Aristotelian, but the Pythagorean: "As early as the time of Tertullian in the third century, Christianity had absorbed the Pythagorean Greek view that the soul was infused at the moment of conception. Though this view was confirmed by St. Gregory of Nyssa a century later, it would not be long before it would be rejected in favour of the Septuagintal notion that only a formed fœtus possessed a human soul. While Augustine speculated whether "animation" might be present prior to formation, he determined that abortion could only be defined as homicide once formation had occurred. Nevertheless, in common with all early Christian thought, Augustine condemned abortion from conception onward."

Through the Latin translations of Averroes's (1126–1198) work, beginning in the 12th century, the legacy of Aristotle was recovered in the West. Christian philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas (1224–1274) adapted largely to his views  and because they believed that the early embryo did not have a human soul, they did not necessarily see early abortion as murder, although they condemned it nonetheless. Aquinas, in his main work, the Summa Theologica, states (Part I, question 118, article 2 ad 2)"...that the intellectual soul is created by God at the end of human generation". Although Jesus may have been exceptional, Aquinas did believe that the embryo first possessed a vegetative soul, later acquired sensitive (animal) soul, and after 40 days of development, God gave humans a rational soul.

In 1588, Pope Sixtus V issued the Bull Effraenatam, which subjected those that carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with automatic excommunication and the punishment by civil authorities applied to murderers. Three years later after finding that the results had not been as positive as was hoped, his successor Pope Gregory XIV limited the excommunication to abortion of a formed fœtus. In 1679, Pope Innocent XI publicly condemned sixty-five propositions taken chiefly from the writings of Escobar, Suarez and other casuists (mostly Jesuit casuists who had been heavily attacked by Pascal in his Provincial Letters) as propositiones laxorum moralistarum (propositions of lax moralists) as "at least scandalous and in practice dangerous". He forbade anyone to teach them under penalty of excommunication. The condemned propositions included:

"34. It is lawful to procure abortion before ensoulment of the fetus lest a girl, detected as pregnant, be killed or defamed.

35. It seems probable that the fetus (as long as it is in the uterus) lacks a rational soul and begins to first have one when it is born and consequently it must be said that no abortion is homicide."

In the 1869 Bull Apostolicae Sedis, Pius IX rescinded Gregory XIV's not-yet-animated fetus exception and re-enacted the penalty of excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy, which even before that were never seen as merely venial sin. Since then, canon law makes no distinction as regards excommunication between stages of pregnancy at which abortion is performed. In spite of the difference in ecclesiastical penalties imposed during the period when the theory of delayed ensoulment was accepted as scientific truth, abortion at any stage is currently claimed to have always been condemned by the Church and continues to be so. However, in its official declarations, the Catholic Church avoids taking a philosophical position on the question of the moment when a human person begins to be:

"This Congregation is aware of the current debates concerning the beginning of human life, concerning the individuality of the human being and concerning the identity of the human person. The Congregation recalls the teachings found in the Declaration on Procured Abortion: "From the time that the ovum is fertilized, a new life is begun which is neither that of the father nor of the mother; it is rather the life of a new human being with his own growth. It would never be made human if it were not human already. To this perpetual evidence ... modern genetic science brings valuable confirmation. It has demonstrated that, from the first instant, the programme is fixed as to what this living being will be: a man, this individual-man with his characteristic aspects already well determined. Right from fertilization is begun the adventure of a human life, and each of its great capacities requires time ... to find its place and to be in a position to act". This teaching remains valid and is further confirmed, if confirmation were needed, by recent findings of human biological science which recognize that in the zygote resulting from fertilization the biological identity of a new human individual is already constituted. Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable."

Citing the possibly first-century Didache and the Letter of Barnabas of about the same period, the Epistle to Diognetus and Tertullian, the Catholic Church declares that "since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law." Even when the prevailing scientific theory considered that early abortion was the killing of what was not yet a human being, the condemnation of abortion at any stage was sometimes expressed in the form of making it equivalent to homicide. Accordingly, the 1907 article on abortion in the Catholic Encyclopedia stated: "The early Christians are the first on record as having pronounced abortion to be the murder of human beings, for their public apologists, Athenagoras, Tertullian, and Minutius Felix (Eschbach, 'Disp. Phys.', Disp. iii), to refute the slander that a child was slain, and its flesh eaten, by the guests at the Agapæ, appealed to their laws as forbidding all manner of murder, even that of children in the womb. The Fathers of the Church unanimously maintained the same doctrine. In the fourth century the Council of Eliberis decreed that Holy Communion should be refused all the rest of her life, even on her deathbed, to an adulteress who had procured the abortion of her child. The Sixth Ecumenical Council determined for the whole Church that anyone who procured abortion should bear all the punishments inflicted on murderers. In all these teachings and enactments no distinction is made between the earlier and the later stages of gestation. For, though the opinion of Aristotle, or similar speculations, regarding the time when the rational soul is infused into the embryo, were practically accepted for many centuries still it was always held by the Church that he who destroyed what was to be a man was guilty of destroying a human life."

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that Human life "must be treated from conception as a person." In 2008, this teaching was confirmed in the authoritative Instruction Dignitas Personae, stating "The dignity of a person must be recognized in every human being from conception to natural death." It stated that "Although the presence of the spiritual soul cannot be observed experimentally, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo give "a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of the first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person?”

Catholicism
On 27 November 2010, Pope Benedict XVI stated: "[F]rom the moment of its conception life must be guarded with the greatest care. ... With regard to the embryo in the mother's womb, science itself highlights its autonomy, its capacity for interaction with the mother, the coordination of biological processes, the continuity of development, the growing complexity of the organism. It is not an accumulation of biological material but rather of a new living being, dynamic and marvelously ordered, a new individual of the human species. This is what Jesus was in Mary's womb; this is what we all were in our mother's womb."

The most recent source on ensoulment is the 2008 Instruction Dignitas Personae, which confirmed that the human being is a human person from their conception, and that there is no compelling philosophical argument to deny ensoulment from conception.

In relation to elective abortion, Pope John Paul II wrote about ensoulment in his 1995 encyclical letter Evangelium Vitae: "Throughout Christianity's two thousand year history, this same doctrine of condemning all direct abortions has been constantly taught by the Fathers of the Church and by her Pastors and Doctors. Even scientific and philosophical discussions about the precise moment of the infusion of the spiritual soul have never given rise to any hesitation about the moral condemnation of abortion."

While the Church has always condemned abortion, changing beliefs about the moment the embryo gains a human soul have led their stated reasons for such condemnation and the classification of abortion within canon law codes to change over time.

Baptists
The Southern Baptist Convention teaches that ensoulment occurs at conception. Resolution 7, which was adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in 1999, declared that "The Bible teaches that human beings are made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27, 9:6) and protectable human life begins at fertilization."

Eastern Orthodoxy
The Orthodox Church while not having dogmatised either Traducianism or Creationism (of the soul), follows the fathers who, either Traducianist or Creationist, believe that the embryo possess a soul from conception. For example, they accept the in Trullo Cannon, which contains the canons of St Basil of Cesarea, which states that the canonical punishment for abortion is the one for murder, regardless of the development of the embryo (Canon 2 of St Basil, in the letter to Amphiloque of Iconium, in the Pedalion).

Judaism
Jewish views on ensoulment have varied. Rabbi David Feldman states that the Talmud discusses the time of ensoulment, but considers the question unanswerable and irrelevant to the abortion question. In recounting a purported conversation in which the rabbi Judah the Prince, who said the soul (neshama) comes into the body when the embryo is already formed, was convinced by Antoninus Pius that it must enter the body at conception, and considered the emperor's view to be supported by, the tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud mentions two views on the question. In a variant reading the rabbi's first statement was that the soul entered the body only at birth.

Other passages in the Talmud, such as Yevamot 69a and Nidda 30b have been interpreted as implying that ensoulment may occur only after forty days of gestation. The Talmud passages, whether speaking of ensoulment at conception or only after forty days, place the views of the rabbis within Greco-Roman culture, whose ideas the rabbis then linked with texts of Scripture and endowed with theological significance. The view of ensoulment at conception harmonizes with general lore among rabbis about conscious activity before birth. However, most of them did not apply the word nefesh, meaning soul or person, to a fetus still in the womb. The latter half of the Second Temple period saw increasing acceptance of the idea of the soul as joining the body at birth and leaving it again at death. One Jewish view put ensoulment even later than birth, saying that it occurs when the child first answers "Amen". The rabbis in fact formulated no fully developed theory of the timing or nature of ensoulment. It has been suggested that the reason why they were not more concerned about the exact moment of ensoulment is that Judaism does not believe in strict separation of soul and body.

Islam
There are four Sunni Islam schools of thought — Hanafi, Shafi‘i, Hanbali and Maliki — and they have their own views on ensoulment, with differing implications. Two passages in the Qur'an describe the fetal development process:

"We created man from an essence of clay, then We placed him as a drop of fluid (nutfah) in a safe place, then We made that drop into a clinging form (alaqah), and We made that form into a lump of flesh (mudghah), and We made that lump into bones (idhaam), and We clothed those bones with flesh (lahm), and later We made him into other forms—glory be to God, the best of creators! (23:12–14)"

"...We created you from dust, then from a drop of fluid (nutfah), then a clinging form ('alaqah), then a lump of flesh (mudghah), both shaped and unshaped: We mean to make Our power clear to you. Whatever We choose We cause to remain in the womb for an appointed time, then We bring you forth as infants and then you grow and reach maturity. ... (22:5)"

The Maliki madhhab holds "that the fetus is ensouled at the moment of conception" and thus "most Malikis do not permit abortion at any point, seeing God's hand as actively forming the fetus at every stage of development." In this view,

"The generally accepted belief is that abortion is forbidden at any stage of a pregnancy on the basis of the following verses from the Qur’an.

“...And do not kill the soul which God has forbidden except for the requirements of justice..." [Glorious Qur’an, Al- An’am 8: 151].

Thus, the termination of a pregnancy, even at the earliest possible stage, without medical justification is not allowed (even for social or economic reasons), as stated in the Glorious Qur’an:

“...do not Kill your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin.” [Glorious Qur’an, Al- Esraa’ 17: 31]."

The Hanafi madhab places the point of ensoulment at 120 days after conception and a minority opinion teaches that it occurs at 40 days. In the latter view, abortion after 40 or 120 days is considered to be a greater sin.

""Verily, the creation of one of you is brought together in the mother’s womb for forty days in the form of a drop (nutfah), then he becomes a clot ('alaqah) for a like period, then a lump for a like period, then there is sent an angel who blows the soul into him.""

- Hadith #4

Most schools of thought, traditional and modern, make allowances for circumstances threatening the health or life of the mother. In 2003, Shia scholars in Iran approved therapeutic abortion before 16 weeks of gestation under limited circumstances, including medical conditions related to fetal and maternal health.

Hinduism
Some Hindus believe that personhood begins with the reincarnation that happens at conception. But many scriptural references such as the Charaka Samhita, Ayurveda's most authoritative treatise on perfect health and longevity, states the soul does not become attached to the body until the 7th month "the occupant doesn't move into the house until the house is finished", certainly not in the first trimester. The physical body is a biological growth undergoing constant reflexive testing and trial runs as it grows into a physiology capable of housing human consciousness. But the flexibility of Hinduism allows for destruction of embryos to save a human life, or embryonic stem cell research to benefit humankind using surplus blastocysts from fertility clinics.

Jainism
Although beliefs vary for different individuals, some followers of Jainism hold the belief that souls (called jivas) or life exist in sperm prior to conception, thus practicing celibacy or abstinence from sex can be done as a way to avoid releasing and killing sperm cells in order to follow Ahimsa (non-violence). This practice is unrelated to the broader practice of celibacy in Jainism called Brahmacharya.

Bahá'í Faith
In a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated October 9, 1947 (Lights of Guidance # 1699), it is stated: "The soul or spirit of the individual comes into being with the conception of his physical body."

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Ensoulment


text:
Talk:Lavan Firestorm

I updated this page, I'll let someone else review the changes, and they can remove the Cleanup-Context template if needed. --DennyJay 23:42, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I added a lifebonding reference. Herald Pol tells his daughter about this, while they are travelling out to fight the Karsites.--Vercalos 05:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

What is the name of his parents guild(the weaver's guild?) I know it has something to do with sewing and making clothes. could someone please put the name of the guild Tydoni (talk) 00:58, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lavan Firestorm


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Ass (album)

Ass is the fifth studio album by British rock band Badfinger, and their last album released on Apple Records. The opening track, "Apple of My Eye", refers to the band leaving the label to begin its new contract with Warner Bros. Records.

The cover artwork, showing a donkey chasing a distant carrot, alludes to Badfinger's feelings that they had been misled by Apple. The cover was painted by Grammy Award-winning artist Peter Corriston, who would later create album covers for Led Zeppelin (Physical Graffiti) and the Rolling Stones (Some Girls, Tattoo You).

Recording and release delays
Although recordings for the album began as early as 1972, shortly after the release of Straight Up, Ass was not released until 26 November 1973 in the US and 8 March 1974 in the UK. The album was originally delayed because of production quality, as the band attempted to produce the album themselves after producer Todd Rundgren departed the project with just two songs recorded. After a first version of the album was rejected by the label, Apple engineer Chris Thomas was hired as a first-time producer to improve the overall recordings and make new track selections.

The album was further delayed when a disagreement surfaced between Apple and Badfinger's management on publishing copyrights. Half of the tracks on Ass were written by Joey Molland. Molland never signed a publishing agreement with Apple Music, unlike his three bandmates, who had signed such a publishing agreement when still in The Iveys. Instead, Molland assigned the individual copyrights of his songs that were selected for Badfinger albums to Apple Music after production. Badfinger's then-manager, Stan Polley, attempted to use Apple's lack of a publishing agreement with Molland to block release of the album; he told Molland not to agree to any individual assignments, and Molland obliged. Eventually, to circumvent Polley's strategy, writing credits for all songs on the US and UK album releases of Ass were credited by Apple to "Badfinger", not to the actual author of the song.

Release
Ass peaked at number 122 on the Billboard 200 in the US. The single "Apple of My Eye" only peaked at number 102 on Billboard's "Bubbling Under" chart in America. The release of Ass caused the band's first album for Warner Bros. to be delayed. After the album was deleted from the Apple catalog a large number of heavily discounted copies appeared in cut-out bins at US record stores during the 1970s. The original CD version released in the 1990s is now rare because it was re-released only in a few countries (UK, Canada, and Japan) for a limited period. The album was remastered and re-released in 2010.

A few weeks prior to the 1990s CD release a few Abbey Road Studios mastered C90 cassettes of Ass were distributed to a handful of music industry people. It appears from the track listing on these cassettes that Ass was originally planned to have five bonus tracks: "Dreaming" (Molland), "Piano Red" (Ham), "Rock & Roll" (Evans), "Regular" (Molland) and "Do You Mind" (Molland). This idea was clearly scrapped, as "Do You Mind" was the only one included on that version of the album. (A different version of that song appeared on the 2010 remaster.)

Ass was the Apple Records label's last original album release that was not by an ex-Beatle. From then on, only the Beatles as solo artists were left to release records on the Apple label.

Original release
Side one
 * 1) "Apple of My Eye" (Pete Ham) – 3:06
 * 2) "Get Away" (Joey Molland) – 3:59
 * 3) "Icicles" (Molland) – 2:32
 * 4) "The Winner" (Molland) – 3:18
 * 5) "Blind Owl" (Tom Evans) – 3:00

Side two
 * 1) "Constitution" (Molland) – 2:58
 * 2) "When I Say" (Evans) – 3:05
 * 3) "Cowboy" (Mike Gibbins) – 2:37
 * 4) "I Can Love You" (Molland) – 3:33
 * 5) "Timeless" (Ham) – 7:39

1992 CD reissue
Bonus track
 * 1) "Do You Mind" (Molland) – 3:36

2010 remastered album
Bonus tracks
 * 1) "Do You Mind" [alternate version] (Molland) – 3:15
 * 2) "Apple of My Eye" [early mix] (Ham) – 3:02
 * 3) "Blind Owl" [alternate version] (Evans) – 2:52
 * 4) "Regular" (Molland) – 2:39
 * 5) "Timeless" [alternate version] (Ham) – 5:27

Supplementary bonus tracks with digital download
 * 1) "Get Away" [alternate version] (Molland) – 3:32
 * 2) "When I Say" [alternate version] (Evans) – 3:14
 * 3) "The Winner" [alternate version] (Molland) – 3:15
 * 4) "I Can Love You" [alternate version] (Molland) – 3:37
 * 5) "Piano Red" [previously unreleased] (Ham) – 3:31

Personnel

 * Pete Ham – guitars, keyboards, vocals
 * Tom Evans – bass guitar, vocals
 * Joey Molland – guitars, keyboards, vocals
 * Mike Gibbins – drums, vocals

title: Ass (album)


text: User:Zach Alexander/Templates/facfailed

title: User:Zach Alexander/Templates/facfailed


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Talk:Flower girl

Fun
I think it is a cool position, definitely very fun.
 * And what about Eliza Doolittle? Isn't she also always referred to as a "flower girl"? <KF> 20:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup, I put up a disambig statement for that. The term in general can clearly refer to girls who sell flowers in addition to those who carry them in weddings. Arguably at one point in history that meaning may have been more common. Ranze (talk) 23:40, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Picture removal
I removed two pictures from the article on the main basis that neither picture was focused on the article's subject (the flower girl). The poor flower girl was just some random element that happened to be in the picture, not the subject itself like the remaining picture is. The ceremony picture was completely inappropriate for this article and, really, any other article on Wikipedia because the key elements are extremely difficult to see unless at its full resolution (which cannot be displayed on any Wikipedia page) and the picture itself is of sub-par quality. I considered keeping the one with the bride and the flower girl facing her (showing the flower girl's back), but decided that the picture focused on the bride too much for an article about the flower girl (not the bride) and the one remaining picture was already sufficient for such a short article (just two pictures was overkill for an article of this length, but there were three!). --74.137.227.117 19:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Historical Significance of Flower Girl?
Does anyone know the historical significance of the flower girl? Why was it pointed out in the article that the flower girl was young since she was to be a virgin? Why do they spread flowers? Please advise. - R.H. from New York — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.93.177.13 (talk • contribs) 17:46, 22 July 2007
 * Probably some kinda fertility ritual. Ranze (talk) 23:40, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

There are actually a lot of different significances for flower girls, beginning with ancient Rome. I will add some other reasons for flower girls to the article. For example, in the Elizabethan era brides followed a petal strewn path from their homes to the church. Flower girls followed the musicians in the wedding procession carrying a gilded rosemary branch and a silver bride's cup adorned with ribbons. Chandlerbuchanan (talk) 19:10, 1 February 2015 (UTC)Chandlerbuchanan

Tense change
I just changed the tense from "is" to "was" under the Elizabethan Era in the third sentence and under the Victorian Era in the first sentence. Absspyridon (talk) 23:43, 8 February 2015 (UTC)absspyridon

Word Change
I changed the wording under the Royal Influences section from "not uncommon" to "common" because I believe it helped to clarify the meaning of the sentence and removed the clutter. I would also suggest that someone contribute more to the article by adding a section that goes into detail about the other meaning of the word, a girl who sells flowers, which is mentioned in the lead but never brought up again or explained anywhere else in the article. Amb2008 (talk) 06:13, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Statement Removed from Intro
Removed statement, "For a wedding event, using a flower girl is optional; however, it is a traditional component.[citation needed]" because stating that it is optional to use a flower girl in something as varied as a wedding ceremony states the obvious. The article for Wedding points out that some wedding traditions include the use of flower girls. Additionally, stating that something is a "traditional component" too strongly suggests that something is a popular or established component of all wedding ceremonies across the globe. Alternatively the article could point out that the choice of using a flower girl is based on tradition, but this might also be stating the obvious. Perhaps the link to the article for Wedding makes all of this moot. Knowisnotgnow (talk) 19:53, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Flower girl


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User:Zach Alexander/Templates/comment

 Comments:

title: User:Zach Alexander/Templates/comment


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User:Captain FREEDOM

This is hard-banned User:JoeM. Adam Bishop 00:16, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User:Captain FREEDOM


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Legendre sieve

In mathematics, the Legendre sieve, named after Adrien-Marie Legendre, is the simplest method in modern sieve theory. It applies the concept of the Sieve of Eratosthenes to find upper or lower bounds on the number of primes within a given set of integers. Because it is a simple extension of Eratosthenes' idea, it is sometimes called the Legendre–Eratosthenes sieve.

Legendre's identity
The central idea of the method is expressed by the following identity, sometimes called the Legendre identity:

 * $$S(A,P)= \sum_{a\in A}\sum_{d\mid a;\,d\mid P} \mu(d) =\sum_{d\mid P}\mu(d)|A_d|,$$

where A is a set of integers, P is a product of distinct primes, $$\mu$$ is the Möbius function, and $$A_d$$ is the set of integers in A divisible by d, and S(A, P) is defined to be:

 * $$S(A, P) = |\{n: n \in A, \gcd(n, P) = 1\}|$$

i.e. S(A, P) is the count of numbers in A with no factors common with P.

Note that in the most typical case, A is all integers less than or equal to some real number X, P is the product of all primes less than or equal to some integer z < X, and then the Legendre identity becomes:

\begin{align} S(A,P) = {} & \sum_{d\mid P}\mu(d)\left\lfloor\frac{X}{d}\right\rfloor \\[6pt] = {} & \lfloor X \rfloor - \sum_{p_1 \le z} \left\lfloor\frac{X}{p_1}\right\rfloor + \sum_{p_1 < p_2 \le z} \left\lfloor \frac{X}{p_1p_2}\right\rfloor \\[4pt] & {} - \sum_{p_1 < p_2 < p_3 \le z} \left\lfloor\frac{X}{p_1p_2p_3}\right\rfloor + \cdots + \mu(P) \left\lfloor \frac{X}{P} \right\rfloor \end{align} $$

(where $$\lfloor X \rfloor$$ denotes the floor function). In this example the fact that the Legendre identity is derived from the Sieve of Eratosthenes is clear: the first term is the number of integers below X, the second term removes the multiples of all primes, the third term adds back the multiples of two primes (which were miscounted by being "crossed out twice") but also adds back the multiples of three primes once too many, and so on until all $$2^{\pi(z)}$$ (where $$\pi(z)$$ denotes the number of primes below z) combinations of primes have been covered.

Once S(A, P) has been calculated for this special case, it can be used to bound $$\pi(X)$$ using the expression

 * $$S(A,P) \geq \pi(X) - \pi(z) + 1, \, $$

which follows immediately from the definition of S(A, P).

Limitations
The Legendre sieve has a problem with fractional parts of terms accumulating into a large error, which means the sieve only gives very weak bounds in most cases. For this reason it is almost never used in practice, having been superseded by other techniques such as the Brun sieve and Selberg sieve. However, since these more powerful sieves are extensions of the basic ideas of the Legendre sieve, it is useful to first understand how this sieve works.

title: Legendre sieve


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Olde English 800

Olde English 800 is a brand of American malt liquor brewed by the Miller Brewing Company. It was introduced in 1964, and has been produced by the company since 1999. It is available in a variety of serving sizes including, since the late 1980s, a 40 USfloz bottle.

Introduction
Olde English 800, also known as 8 ball or Old E (O’ E in some colloquial dialects), was introduced in 1964. It had its origins in the late 1940s as Ruff's Olde English Stout, brewed by Peoples Brewing Company of Duluth, Minnesota. Rebranded Olde English 600, it was later sold to Bohemian Breweries of Spokane, Washington, and then to Blitz-Weinhard of Portland, Oregon, where it became Olde English 800. By the time Blitz-Weinhard was sold to the Pabst Brewing Company in 1979, Olde English Malt Liquor had become their top brand.

1980s
In August 1989, when the brand was owned by Pabst and targeted by the brewer towards the "urban contemporary market", a coalition of "22 public interest groups involved in minority issues" criticized the marketing of Olde English ﹘which as a malt liquor has a higher alcohol content than most beers﹘ or what they characterized as an "emphasis on Black and Hispanic consumers."

1990s
In 1991, 1992, 1994, and 1995, while still owned by Pabst, Olde English was awarded a gold medal in the American Malt Liquor category at the Great American Beer Festival. In 1992, Pabst introduced Old English 800 Draft, a cold-filtered instead of pasteurized "draft-style" malt liquor. Olde English received the gold medal in the American Style Specialty Lager category in 1997. The 1999 acquisition of Olde English 800 by Miller meant its share of the U.S. malt liquor business grew to 36 percent; it also led to a "less controversial" marketing strategy for the brand, one that by 2000 included the sponsorship of a series of minority business seminars.

2000s–2010s
In 2010, the 3.2% ABV version of Olde English was rated one of "the worst beer[s] in the world" by RateBeer.com, a beer rating website.

2020s
In 2021 Olde English HG 800 the classic 8% malt liquor 40oz glass bottle was discontinued. It wasn't fully gone from shelves until early/mid 2023 in Western Canada. As of 2024 in the east coast market, Miller has resumed selling Olde English in glass 40 oz bottles after nearly a decade of selling the beer in 40 oz plastic containers.

Alcohol content
As of 2010, Olde English 800 is brewed in several versions which vary in alcohol by volume (ABV):

Currently it is available in a 16-ounce [473 ml] pint can, 24-ounce [710 ml] "tallboy" can, a 22-ounce [651 ml], 40-ounce [1.183 litre] or 42-ounce [1.242 litre] plastic bottle, or a 40-ounce glass bottle. It was originally available in 12-ounce [355 ml] or 32-ounce [947 ml] "King Size" (c.1999) cans and 22-, 45- or 64-ounce glass bottles.

title: Olde English 800


text: User talk:142.68.65.20

title: User talk:142.68.65.20


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Bootsmann

Bootsmann (lit. 'Boatswain') is a naval rank used in some navies.

Germany
The German term Bootsmann translates to Boatswain, i.e. the senior crewman of the deck department.

In a military context,  Bootsmann  (Btsm or B) is the lowest Portepeeunteroffizier (NCO with portepeé) rank in the German Navy. It belongs to the particular rank group Senior NCOs with port épée. It is grouped as OR6 in NATO, equivalent to Petty Officer First Class in the US Navy, and to Petty Officer in the British Royal Navy.

In navy context NCOs of this rank were formally addressed as Herr Bootsmann also informally / short Bootsmann.

The sequence of ranks (top-down approach) in that particular group is as follows:

Unteroffiziere mit Portepee

 * OR-9: Oberstabsbootsmann / Oberstabsfeldwebel
 * OR-8: Stabsbootsmann / Stabsfeldwebel
 * OR-7: Hauptbootsmann / Hauptfeldwebel
 * OR-6a: Oberbootsmann / Oberfeldwebel
 * OR-6b: Bootsmann / Feldwebel

Russia
These names were adopted for the Russian Navy as botsman (боцман) botsmanmat (боцманмат) by Peter the Great, among many other Prussian and Holland military ranks; they were initially treated as positions rather than ranks.

title: Bootsmann


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General-in-chief

General-in-chief has been a military rank or title in various armed forces around the world.

France
In France, general-in-chief (général en chef) was first an informal title for the lieutenant-general commanding over other lieutenant-generals, or even for some marshals in charge of an army. During the Revolution, it became a title given to officers of général de division rank commanding an army. The généraux en chef wore four stars on their shoulders boards opposed to the three of a général de division. The title of général en chef was abolished in 1812, re-established during the Restoration and ultimately abolished in 1848.

Russia
In Russia, general-in-chief (генера́л-анше́ф, probably originating from the French général en chef), was a full general rank in the Russian Imperial army, the second highest rank, after the rank of marshal, in Russian military ranks (the 2nd grade of Table of Ranks). It was created in 1698 by Peter the Great. In 1798, the rank was divided into three equivalent ranks of general of the infantry, general of the cavalry and general of the artillery.

United States
In the United States, the title "General in Chief" was used to refer to the commanding general of the United States Army, who was the Army's senior-most officer. Famous generals-in-chief were George Washington, Winfield Scott, Henry Halleck, George McClellan, and Ulysses S. Grant (Washington's title was commander-in-chief during the American Revolution, and he was only called the "Senior Officer of the Army" after he was president in the late 1790s). The position of "general-in-chief," not the commanding general of the United States Army, was abolished with the creation of the title of chief of staff in 1903 — the Chief of Staff of the United States Army is the modern-day equivalent, although the current position is not responsible for commanding military forces in the field, as the generals-in-chief did in the 19th century. The rank of "General of the Armies of the United States" was conferred upon General John J. Pershing in 1919 and to Lieutenant General George Washington (posthumously) in 1975 by acts of Congress. Washington's date of rank was retroactively dated to 1799, so that he will always be the senior ranking general of the United States Army.

Confederate States
On January 31, 1865, the 2nd Confederate States Congress established a “General in Chief of the Armies of the Confederate States”. General Robert E. Lee was appointed to the position on February 6 and served until the end of the American Civil War. During the entire time, Lee retained command of the Army of Northern Virginia, serving in both positions until he was paroled as a prisoner of war on April 12.

Venezuela
Since the age of the independence war in Venezuela, the most senior officer is designated as general-in-chief (general en jefe). From its creation, the rank was represented by three suns (equivalent to three-star rank), but with the creation in 2008 of the rank of major general, four suns (equivalent to four-star rank) are used.

From the 1940s until 2001 the rank was not used. In 2001 Divisional General Lucas Rincon Romero was promoted to general-in-chief. He was the first-ever active officer to be promoted after six decades.

Since 2001, 18 officers have been promoted to this rank or equivalent (13 from the Army including 3 posthumously, 1 from the Air Force, also posthumously, 2 from the Navy, 1 other naval recipient having been promoted to Admiral plus 1 posthumously):

title: General-in-chief


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Starshina

Starshina (старшина or Starshyna in Russian transliteration) is a senior military rank or designation in the military forces of some Slavic states, and a historical military designation. Depending on a country, it has different meanings, which sometimes are very different. In the 19th century with the expansion of the Imperial Russia into Turkestan and the Central Asia, the word was even used to identify some Turkic leaders as a basic Russian word for aqsaqal (white-beard) as an example.

Originally in Cossack's army it identified a commissioned officer rank and was later adopted in Russian culture as a non-commissioned officer rank. During the times of Cossack Hetmanate, there were starshyna (officers) and general starshyna (general officers) the latter were part of the Hetman General Officers Council. Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, most of post-Soviet countries has adopted the Soviet interpretation of the word.

Only since the 1930s in Russian or Soviet army terminology, a starshina is equivalent to "Sergeant Major" (Most senior member at the company level) or a rank equal to a NATO OR-8. In naval terminology, starshina is a general term for junior and middle-ranking non-commissioned officers, similar in usage to "Chief Petty Officer".

The word originates from Old East Slavic language «*старъ»(star)

Imperial Russia
Later, in the Tsardom of Russia and Imperial Russia, a volostnoy starshina was the chief of a volost (a rural administrative unit), in charge of the distribution of taxes, resolving conflicts within obshchina (communes), distributing community lands and military conscription. The rank of Voiskovoi starshina (Войсковой старшина – Starshina of the Army (Host)) was introduced into the ranks of the Imperial military in 1826, as the equivalent of a "Lieutenant Colonel" in the Cossack cavalry.

Soviet Union and Russian Federation
The word starshina gained its modern meaning in the Red Army, and is a hangover from the functional titles (like "Brigade Commander" or "Assistant Platoon Leader") that were initially used by that force – the word literally means "senior". Most functional titles in the Red Army were abolished in 1942, but starshina remained. Starshina was the highest non-commissioned rank in the Soviet Army until the reintroduction of the imperial rank of Praporshchik in 1972.

In the Soviet Navy, the term starshina was introduced between 1940 and 1943 as term equivalent to "Petty Officer" for every enlisted seaman above "Matros, 1st class." There was also created a rank equal to starshina in the Army, but termed Glavnyy korabel'nyy starshina – this is the naval rank depicted in the tables below.

Language variants
In some former communist state, the rank of "older" is used with the local language variants.

Naval variants

 * Glavny starshina of the ship
 * Glavny starshina
 * Starshina 1st stage
 * Starshina 2nd stage

title: Starshina


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Polkovnik

Polkovnik (pułkownik; полковник) is a military rank used mostly in Slavic-speaking countries which corresponds to a colonel in English-speaking states, coronel in Spanish and Portuguese-speaking states and oberst in several German-speaking and Scandinavian countries. It was originally a rank in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Russian Empire. However, in Cossack Hetmanate and Sloboda Ukraine, polkovnyk was an administrative rank similar to a governor. Usually this word is translated as colonel, however the transliteration is also in common usage, for the sake of the historical and social context. Polkovnik began as a commander of a distinct group of troops (polk), arranged for battle.

The exact name of this rank maintains a variety of spellings in different languages, but all descend from the Old Slavonic word polk (literally: regiment sized unit), and include the following in alphabetical order:

 * 1) Belarus — палкоўнік
 * 2) Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia — pukovnik
 * 3) Bulgaria, North Macedonia, Russia and Ukraine — полковник
 * 4) Czech Republic and Slovakia — plukovník
 * 5) Poland — pułkownik
 * 6) Slovenia — polkovnik

It is also used in some non-Slavic languages:
 * 1) Latvia — pulkvedis
 * 2) Lithuania — pulkininkas
 * 3) Georgia — პოლკოვნიკი

Lithuania (and likely Latvia) inherited the term from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. The rank of polkovnik was also used in the Estonian army until 1924. Georgia likely inherited it from the Russian Empire.

Russia
In the 17th century, polkovnik became the position of a regimental commander of the streltsy; this position also made it into New Regiments of the streltsy and later into the new army of Peter the Great. The rank was legalized by Table of Ranks that placed it in the 6th grade as the second-top field officer, right under the brigadier. A promotion to the rank of polkovnik gave a privilege of hereditary nobility.

The Red Army reintroduced the polkovnik rank in 1935, together with a number of other former Russian ranks, and it continued to be in used in many ex-USSR countries, including Russia.

Rank insignia
The Rank insignia to Polkovnik (OF-5) is as follows:

As part of the Commonwealth
The rank was first introduced in the armies of the Commonwealth in the 17th century to denote a captain (rotmistrz) of the core banner of a regiment. By the end of the 17th century, the title of the assignment became a de facto rank as such and started to denote the commanding officer of the entire regiment. In mercenary troops fighting in the ranks of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth's army, the direct equivalent of the rank of pułkownik was oberszter, but in the 18th century the rank was abolished and renamed as pułkownik as well.

Interwar
During the Sanation in the period between World War I and World War II, a large number of officers were promoted to the rank, often for political reasons (the rule of the Sanation was even dubbed the government of the colonels because of that).

World War II
During the Invasion of Poland in 1939, the Polish divisions were commanded by officers of many grades, from colonels to three-star generals. In fact 22 divisions out of 42 were commanded by colonels in 1939. The pułkownicy (plural of pułkownik) also commanded units of all sizes, from divisions down to mere battalions.

Ukraine
In the Zaporozhian Host, the political, social, and military organization of Ukrainian cossacks, the title polkovnyk indicated a high military rank among the Ukrainian Cossack starshyna (officers); a polkovnyk commanded one or more military detachments during land and naval military actions in the 16th to 18th centuries. In the 18th century, a polkovnyk was a leader of a palanka, a territorial unit of the Zaporozhian Host. The military council elected a palanka polkovnyk to serve for a term of one year. He represented the Kosh Otaman in the palanka and had significant powers, including the right to condemn Cossacks to the death penalty. At the time of liquidation of the Zaporozhian Host by the Russian government in 1775, there were eight palanka polkovnyks. As symbol of office a polkovnyk wore a pernach (a mace with a hexagonal head; see also bulawa) in his belt.

In the Registered Cossack Army of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in the 16th and 17th centuries, a polkovnyk commanded a regiment (полк. polk), a Cossack military unit. After the reform of the Cossack army by hetman Mykhailo Doroshenko in the 1620s there were six Cossack regiments, each comprising one thousand Cossacks. Polkovnyks were elected by the Cossack Council (рада, rada) subject to the approval of the Polish government. A polkovnyk obtained a salary for his service, and enjoyed considerable privileges. After the Sejm of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth adopted the "Ordination" of 1638, only noblemen (szlachta) were allowed to become polkovnyks.

During Khmelnytsky Uprising (1648-1657) and in the Cossack Hetmanate (1649-1764; also in the Slobozhanschtschyna in 1652–1765), a polkovnyk headed a territorial administrative unit, the regiment (полк). In terms of Nobility, Khmelnytsky's Polkovnyks were recognized as equal to Lithuania's Barons.

In modern Ukraine, the military rank of polkovnyk resembles the similar rank of the former Soviet Army.

Notes and references

 * Гайдай Л. Історія України в особах, термінах, назвах і поняттях.-Луцьк: Вежа, 2000.
 * Довідник з історії України.За ред. І.Підкови та Р.Шуста.- К.: Генеза, 1993.
 * ЗАКОН УКРАЇНИ Про військовий обов'язок і військову службу
 * Про положення про проходження військової служби відповідними категоріями військовослужбовців
 * История Советского флота
 * Воинские звания военнослужащих России и СССР
 * Воинские звания
 * Звания воинские
 * The International Encyclopedia of Uniform and Rank Insignia around the World

title: Polkovnik


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Lieutenant (Eastern Europe)

The rank of lieutenant in Eastern Europe (poručnik, poručík, porucznik, poruchik, poručnik, poručík) is one used in Slavophone armed forces. Depending on the country, it is either the lowest or second lowest officer rank.

Etymology
The rank designation poruchik might be derived from поpученец (a person tasked by a special mission); поручение (assignment, commission) or поручить (task to look after, charge with something). Normally the poruchik received military orders in written form and was responsible to meet the particular goals and objectives anticipated.

Russian imperial armed forces
The Imperial Russian Army introduced this rank first in middle of the 17th century, by the Strelets so-called New Order Regiments, reflected in the Table of Ranks. A poruchik was normally assigned to assistant commanding officer of a company, later platoon. In 1798 this particular rank designation was replaced by lieutenant beginning with the Russian Guards, followed by other military units, and legalised by the Table of Ranks.

title: Lieutenant (Eastern Europe)


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Spacers and standoffs

In general, a spacer is a solid material used to separate two parts in an assembly. Spacers can vary in size from microns to centimeters. They can be made of metal, plastic, glass, and other materials. Shapes include flat sheet, cylindrical and spherical.

A standoff is a threaded separator of defined length used to raise one part in an assembly above another. They are usually round or hex (for wrench tightening), often made of stainless steel, aluminum, brass, or nylon, and come in male-female or female-female forms. In electronics they are frequently used to raise a printed-circuit board above a surface. Insulating standoffs keep two parts from touching each other, thereby preventing electrical shorts. In some cases (e.g., D-subminiature connectors), short standoffs may be used to receive the jackscrews that lock the connection together.

In contrast, some spacers may look similar to standoffs but are unthreaded pieces of tubing which let the entire bolt pass through. Since they cannot be tightened, they are usually round.

Audio visual equipment (e.g., AV amplifiers) can utilise extra space above or below their mounting in order to achieve extra cooling in the way of better airflow. AV spacers are made for this purpose.

Usage in home computers
Size 4-40 is used to receive jackscrews securing cable connectors to external computer ports, and size 6-32 is used for motherboard mounts.

Dell, Inc. refers to standoffs that receive thumbscrews as "hex nut screws" and measures them with the metric system.

title: Spacers and standoffs


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Swirlies

Swirlies is an American indie rock band formed in Boston in 1990. Since their first records in the early 1990s, the band has released studio and home recordings that blend shoegaze and twee pop with electronica and lo-fi music.

Swirlies released five studio albums between 1993 and 2003. The band have since assembled to tour occasionally with a roster of musicians led by founding guitarist/songwriter Damon Tutunjian.

1990–1991: Formation and early releases
Guitarists Seana Carmody and Damon Tutunjian met in Spring 1990 through mutual friend Rusty Nails, a punk fanzine publisher who wanted to start a Go-Go's cover band. Formed in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Tutunjian, Carmody, Nails, and drummer Jason Fitzpatrick learned two songs before abandoning their original objective in favor of writing originals. Under the name Raspberry Bang, the group released one song on a 7-inch record compilation to benefit animal rights.

In November 1990, Tutunjian's high school friend Andy Bernick was enlisted to play bass and M.I.T. student Ben Drucker was recruited to play drums. The band began writing and recording songs characterized by shifting tempos, loud vibrato guitars played through numerous effects pedals, Tutunjian and Carmody's melodic vocal interplay, and occasional bursts of screaming and other noise. They completed their first 4-track demo in December 1990, and played their first show on January 25, 1991. Because of the band's practice of alternate guitar tunings, Bernick took to playing tapes or static from an old AM radio to fill time while Carmody and Tutunjian adjusted their guitars.

In 1991 Swirlies made some 8-track home recordings, which saw issue as the band's debut single "Didn't Understand" first self-released as a cassette and then on 7-inch vinyl by Slumberland Records. A split double-single with Boston noise rock band Kudgel followed, and the group entered the studio to record another single and compilation tracks for Boston's Pop Narcotic label.

1992–1993: What To Do About Them and Blonder Tongue Audio Baton
In 1992 the band signed to Taang! Records and released the eight-song mini-album What To Do About Them culled from a mix of previously available and unreleased home and studio recordings. Musician/cartoonist Ron Regé, Jr. contributed artwork to the album's cover as well as lo-fi recordings that were woven into the record's sequence. The band also set to work recording their first LP, around which time shifts in Swirlies' personnel began to occur. Ben Drucker only drummed on a third of the new album's studio tracks, and for the remaining songs his parts were handed over to a pair of session drummers. In January 1993, Andy Bernick departed to pursue ornithology for the remainder of the academic year and Damon's former roommate Morgan Andrews was brought in to fill in on bass guitar and assorted noises. It was this lineup that toured to support What To Do About Them and that appeared in the video for "Bell" from Blonder Tongue Audio Baton, which had already been completed but was not yet released. Named for an obscure piece of vintage musical equipment, Blonder Tongue Audio Baton made use of Mellotron, Moog, and other analog artifacts that the group had unearthed in the studio. During sequencing the band threw in numerous lo-fi compositions, soundbites, and rants, and collaged together an album jacket from arrays of found images and objects that matched the album's eclectic aesthetics. Hailed for melding "the high waters of shoegaze creativity and the mounting currents of indie rock", Blonder Tongue Audio Baton quickly rose to prominence in the American noise pop canon.

After a semester of birding, Bernick returned, and Swirlies enjoyed a brief period of performing as a quintet made up of two guitars, two bass guitars, and a drum kit until Andrews left in June 1993 to become a radio DJ. At this point Blonder Tongue Audio Baton was released, and the band embarked on their first nation-wide tour with the original line up of Bernick, Carmody, Drucker, and Tutunjian. Later that year, Swirlies released the Brokedick Car EP which contained remixes of songs from Blonder Tongue alongside a couple of outtakes. In Fall 1993, Ben Drucker was replaced by Anthony DeLuca on drums, and the band did a series of short tours on the East Coast college circuit. In January 1994, the band did their first tour of Europe, which included a session recorded for John Peel. Directly after the tour, Seana Carmody left Swirlies and formed Syrup USA.

1994–1999: Sneaky Flutes and Salons
Christina Files joined Swirlies on guitar, synths, and vocals in early 1994, and that summer the band began work on their next album. After being branded both "shoegaze"' and "chimp rock" early in their career, the band was exploring new musical directions and invented a name for their ethos, emblazoning it in the title of their 1995 EP, Sneaky Flutes and Sneaky Flute Music. The seven-song mini-album was a forerunner to their full-length masterwork, 1996's They Spent Their Wild Youthful Days in the Glittering World of the Salons. The album added more synth-driven electronica and a few dance beats to their foundations in angular noise pop, drawing comparisons to Stereolab and their Krautrock forebears.

More member changes occurred during this time: In 1995, DeLuca left, and Gavin McCarthy manned the drum kit for two U.S. tours before moving on to work in his own group Karate. Swirlies briefly played as a trio before Adam Pierce stepped in to play drums. Files left Swirlies to play with Victory at Sea and was replaced in 1997 by guitarist Rob Laakso. In 1998, the group remixed songs from the Salons sessions for the album Strictly East Coast Sneaky Flute Music, which featured collaborations with producers Rich Costey, DJ Spooky, Soul Slinger, and Mice Parade, various friends of the band, and an abundance of field recordings as was tradition on earlier Swirlies releases.

2000–2003: The Yes Girls and Cats of the Wild
Swirlies continued as a four piece under the Tutunjian-Laakso-Bernick-Pierce arrangement into the new millennium. Swirlies offshoot The Yes Girls (the core lineup but with Lavender Diamond's Ron Regé on drums) toured the U.S. with Timonium, and in Denmark as an opener for Mew on their Half the World is Watching Me tour. This endeavor culminated in the release of the home-made album Damon Andy Rob Ron: The Yes Girls, which was released on Sneaky Flute Empire/Pehr in 2000, as well as a limited edition live album on Sneaky Flute Empire.

The band began to settle into being an outfit with a cast of guest musicians revolving in and out of the group to accommodate the other members' academic, career, and family commitments: Seana Carmody, Vanessa Downing, and Damon's sister Kara Tutunjian often joined onstage for live vocals, Mike Walker and Tarquin Katis occasionally sat in for Bernick on bass, and Ken Bernard and Kevin Shea sometimes replaced Adam Pierce on drums. Deborah Warfield joined the band as vocalist circa 2000, also playing guitar and keyboards live.

Swirlies eventually released Cats of the Wild, Vol. 2 on Bubblecore Records in 2003, collecting new material alongside revamped studio versions of Yes Girls songs, plus outtakes from Swirlies' early 90s recordings.

Subsequent activity
The group, though sometimes sparse in regards to output, has never disbanded. They played a few shows in the northeastern U.S. in 2009 and 2011, toured the Eastern Seaboard and Midwest in 2013 with Kurt Vile, with Elliott Malvas on bass in lieu of Andy, and in 2015 Swirlies co-founder Seana Carmody rejoined the group for a two-week tour of the eastern U.S. and Canada to commemorate the band's 25th year of existence. In 2016, Joyful Noise Recordings released a new Swirlies song (Fantastic Trumpets Forever) on flexi disc, and Taang! Records reissued the Blonder Tongue Audio Baton LP on vinyl. In 2017 they toured the west coast in the U.S. and in 2018 the south and east coast of the U.S. in support of the Philadelphia-based rock band Nothing.

Other releases and projects
Since their earliest demo tape, each Swirlies appearance has been marked with "This is Swirlies number __" in order of its release. In addition to their "official" releases, Swirlies have produced a number of cassingles, CDs, and free downloadable albums on their own Sneaky Flute Empire label. Beginning in 2005 the band began to curate recordings of live performances and radio sessions in limited runs under the name "Swirlies' Magic Strop." The first three of these were issued via their website as MP3-only albums, including a mock rock opera about Meg Zamula, a former writer for Pitchfork. In 2015, the band's 1994 Peel Sessions were issued on a 7-inch called Orce vs. Dragon, and in 2018 the band put out a 12-inch EP called Magic Strop Tonight compiling tracks from the Los Angeles radio show Part Time Punks and new studio songs from their "Fantastic Trumpets Forever" single.

Bassist Andy Bernick maintains a label and website called Richmond County Archives that publishes material from the band's periphery. The site also serves as Swirlies' official web presence.

A Swirlies tribute album, Sneaky Flute Moods: A Tribute to the Swirlies, was released online by Reverse Engine in April 2012.

Singer/guitarist Damon Tutunjian produced Mew's debut album and performed in some capacity on their first five albums. He also produced a number of tracks for The Wicked Farleys debut 7-inch and first LP. He played guitar in the original incarnation of Lansing-Dreiden in the late 1990s and in the Danish band Ghost Society in 2010. In 2013, he joined Swedish band I Am Super Ape on bass guitar and synths and produced their single "Monki", featuring Mark Lanegan on vocals. He recently produced the debut album for the Swedish multi-instrumentalist Majken.

Members
Original lineup (1990-1993)
 * Damon Tutunjian – guitar and vocals
 * Seana Carmody – guitar and vocals
 * Andy Bernick – bass guitar and radio
 * Ben Drucker – drums

Current members
 * Damon Tutunjian
 * Andy Bernick
 * Deborah Warfield
 * Elliott Malvas
 * Adam Pierce
 * Rob Laakso (1997-2023)

Other erstwhile members
 * Wesley Bunch
 * Viktor Hober
 * Anna Bergvall
 * Seana Carmody
 * Mike Walker
 * Morgan Andrews
 * Doro Tachler
 * Ron Regé Jr.
 * Anthony DeLuca
 * Baby Tonts
 * Christina Files
 * Gavin McCarthy
 * Ken Bernard
 * Kara Tutunjian
 * Vanessa Downing
 * Junko Hemmi
 * Tarquin Katis
 * Kurt Vile
 * Avery Matthews
 * Kevin Shea
 * Matt Sheppeck
 * Matthew Seabass

Tutunjian is the sole Swirlie to play with the group for its entire duration while other members have come and gone, sometimes coming back again.

Partial timeline

Albums

 * Blonder Tongue Audio Baton LP/CD/cassette (Taang! 1993)
 * They Spent Their Wild Youthful Days in the Glittering World of the Salons (Taang! 1996)
 * Strictly East Coast Sneaky Flute Music CD (Taang! 1998)
 * Damon, Andy, Rob, Ron: The Yes Girls (Pehr/Sneaky Flute Empire 2000)
 * Cats of The Wild Volume 2 CD/MP3 (Bubblecore Records 2003)

EPs

 * What To Do About Them mini-LP/CD/cassette (Taang! 1992)
 * Brokedick Car 12-inch EP/CD/cassette (Taang! 1994)
 * Sneaky Flutes and Sneaky Flute Music mini-LP/CD (Taang! 1996)
 * Buffay: Damon Sez I’m Durdy (Sneaky Flute Empire, 2013)
 * Magic Strop Tonight 12” (Sneaky Flute Empire, 2018)

Singles

 * "Didn't Understand" 7-inch release (Slumberland Records, 1992)
 * Error 7-inch (Pop Narcotic, 1992)
 * Brokedick Car 7-inch version (Taang! 1993)
 * ''Swirlies' Magic Strop: Orca vs. Dragon" 7-inch (Richmond County Archives/Sneaky Flute Empire, 2015)
 * "Fantastic Trumpets Forever” flexi disc (Joyful Noise Recordings, 2016)

Split releases

 * A Kinder Gentler Genocide (Swirlies appeared under the name Raspberry Bang) 7-inch compilation (Wasted Effort, 1990)
 * Free Tape (cassette with Dropdead, Fast Forward, 1991)
 * Red Fish Dreams 2×7″ split with Kudgel (Cinderblock/Villa Villa Kula, 1992)
 * Working Holiday Series: November split 7-inch with Pitchblende (Simple Machines, 1993)
 * Vents of the Ocean Floor split 7-inch with Iris (Bubblecore Records, 1996)

Online releases

 * Swirlies' Magic Strop: At the Salon of WBCN 12×MP3 (Sneaky Flute Empire, 2005)
 * Swirlies' Magic Strop: Winsome Zamula's Hammer of Contumely 8×MP3 (Sneaky Flute Empire, 2005)
 * Swirlies' Magic Strop: Gavin's March To The Sea 16×MP3 (Sneaky Flute Empire, 2009)

Compilations

 * Strictly East Coast Sneaky Flute Music/They Spent Their Wild Youthful Days in the Glittering World of the Salons 2×LP (Taang! 1998)
 * Swirlies Magic Drive: Välkommen Till Ponyklubben mixed format flash drive (Sneaky Flute Empire, 2013)

Music videos

 * “Bell” (1992)

Appearances in other media
Swirlies are mentioned in the 2016 novel, Our Noise by Jeff Gomez, appearing in a fictitious record review written by the book's protagonist.

In 2018 a Swirlies poster made an appearance in the Hulu TV series Castle Rock based on short stories by Stephen King and set in the 1990s.

title: Swirlies


text: User:Githlar

title: User:Githlar