text:
Talk:Arab Americans

Comment
"Many Arab Americans tend to be pro-life and to support the death penalty". I love this sentence! It's so full of meaning it seems to burst..!

lollllllllllllllllllll I love the guy who posted above me.

And since were Assyrians Arabs??? I mean Im French, but this article was written on assumption and not facts people. Please get some smart people to write. i mean i know this is wikipedia but come on.

Just to say: There is not now nor has there ever been a country called "Palestine." The sentence which mentions gaza, west bank, and 'palestine' is politically and technically incorrect. Check your facts wikepedia..

This is a joke!
In recent centuries, there has been a major influx of Europeans into middle eastern countries; the result of which has been a number of lighter skinned people living in this region (i.e. Syria and Lebanon). However, you only need to look at a map to realize that "pure" Arabs (non-mixed) would need to have darker skin to survive in this area of the world thousands of years ago. I am an Egyptian-American and there is absolutely NO ONE who would consider me to be white. I am not arguing that the US census does not list Arabs as white -- I am just saying it is a HUGE flaw in racial classification considering pure Arabs are not considered white in US society. Arabs are a separate, ancient race and should be recognized as such by the US government. True, people from the northern countries of the middle east tend to be lighter skinned than those from southern regions. However, for someone to state that "Nordic and Germanic looking people" are native to Syria or Lebanon (as one person does below) does not make any sense whatsoever.

 "White" is a somewhat flexible social concept that has had differing meaning throughout history, and has both included and excluded various Caucasoid peoples at one time or another, and acknowledging "honorary whites" at others. Is this suppose to mean that Arabs are non-white, but are rewarded the category of being of the white race? Arabs and other Middle Easterners are caucasoid, which happens to indicate that they're white.--Gramaic 01:29, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Arabs are not white,they are Arab which is completely different, there are some "white" people in North Africa, but in the Middle East you will rarely encounter a truly white, non-semitic group of people. In that sense, the white Arabs are not white as Europeans are white but rather a racial group of semitic descent that ranges from white to extremely dark.

 * Concur. Arabs are considered racially white in the United States and considered caucasoid all around the world.

 * in the Middle East you will rarely encounter a truly white, non-semitic group of people.

 * Obviously your not that familiar with people from the Middle East. Semitic people are racially caucasoid, and not to mention there are a lot of semites who have blond hair and blue eyes. You should look into the racial makeup of Syria and Lebanon, in those countries you'll find quite a few Nordic and Germanic looking people. The majority of Arabs who live in Syria and Lebanon, are Medditerrannean looking people. A Syrian or a Lebanese (in most cases) can pass for a Greek or an Italian, which makes them very European looking. Just because a person is non-European doesn't mean that they're non-Caucasoid.--Gramaic 03:47, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It really boggles my mind why you keep insisting that Arabs are white like Europeans because that's how some Syrians and Lebanese look like. Look more towards countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Abu Dhabi, Yemen, etc. on how Arabs *generally* look. I have relatives in Jordan; some look as black as Wesley Snipes; others look as white as Woody Harrelson. There are also some pretty light-skinned Pakistanis and Indians, and I can't think of anyone who would say something like "All Pakistanis are white." Hispanics in the United States pass for non-whites, despite the existence of Cubans and other "light-skinned" Latinos. Why not the same thing for Arabs? Although there are more than one categories for arabs(egyptian,north african,etc.) you'll find that they are listed as "white". Not white as in the color,but they share the same genetic traits as other European groups. However, it lists Saudi Arabians as having a more closer relationship with that of Ethiopians which may explain some darker Arabs.As for the more "Nordic Arabs" as Gramaic was talking about,this may have been a result of European colonization.Ashmole 20:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Look, Arabs come in a lot of different racial groups, there are Arabs that are certainly white, others that are not, such as myself. Being caucasian is not the same as being white all the time. I am caucasian but I have never been taken for a "white" person in all my life in the United States. My grandmother, who was Algerian, had blue eyes and red hair and was often mistaken for being Italian or the like. My mother, who is Lebanese and whose family has been in the States for decades does not look "white" at all. Being Caucasian is not being white. White is a social definition. It is not racial or genetic. There are people of African descent that go through their lives being viewed as "white" because they can pass. There are Arabs who look white and are Christian and are often accepted as being white. It is my experience that the whole idea of Arabs being "white" or not is nonsense. Arab is not confined to one race. There is no such thing as a Semitic race. Semitic and Arab are linguistic and cultural terms. A Semitic speaking person can be black (like an Ethiopian), white (like an Israeli Jew of European origin), somewhere in between or mixed (like many Egyptians and Saudis or Yemenites), or North African (most North Africans are not genetically "Middle EAstern" and have Berber origins, meaning that the original languages of the area were mostly Berber, and non-Semitic). The US system of racial classification is flawed, and "white" is used interchangably with "caucasian" even though the two notions are not the same in reality. There needs to be some kind of illustration of the diversity of Arab Americans in this article, not just a discussion of foolish theories of who is a caucasian and who is not. All Arabs do not look like Lebanese or Syrian people or Sudanese people (who are almost totally black or "AFrican" in their race). The Arab culture does not have a race. The classification of Arabs as "white" is a generalization. I think at least. El Moro.

 * True, you find a large minority of Arab Americans have a fair amount of melanin (skin color) and ethnological characteristics found in a majority of north or east Africans and south Asians. Arabs are of the so-called Semitic branch of the Afro-Asian linguistic family, but are racially labeled as the white race (Caucasians) of "Armenoid" and Mediteranean stock compared to the northern/western Europeans ("Nordic" and "Alpine" stocks) in numerous studies of 20th century anthropology books. But the term "Arab" was derived from the tribes from Arabian peninsula and a certain nationality's native tongue was Arabic, a relative to other Semitic languages like Hebrew and Aramaic. + 63.3.14.2 03:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Language has nothing to do with race, as you find Arabs of various "Races" in the Middle East and Africa. Semitic langauges have nothing to do with Semitic "races". Clearly Arabs are classified as 'white" officially, but most do not regard themselves this way and are not treated as such in life (I say this as an Arab American talking about Arab Americans). Linguisitically yes, Arabic is related to Aramaic and Hebrew, but "racially" you find many Arabs having more genetically in common with non-Semites (black Africans, Beber North Africans, West Africans, west Med. Europeans) than with these so-called "Semities". Language and race are unrelated. This Semitic that or this has no place in the article as far as Arab race goes. What should be noted is that Arabs come in a variety of racial "forms" and colors and a classified as white regardless. There are Arab Americans who disagree with this, most advocacy groups and the like agree that Arabs are a minority and are not "white" in the sense that other "whites" are (Italians, Germans, Greeks, Anglos, etc.) whose whiteness is essentially unquestionable, but Arab"whiteness" is questioned and even revocked througout history socially and legally as the political climate changes. If you think all Arabs are white or one finds a "large minority" with a "fair amout of melanin" (which is not the case because everyone has it, and most Arabs are pretty dark, at least compared to other "whites") look at some elected officials of Arab descent or some religious leaders, not to mention read some article on the topic. It is fine to note the legal classification (which is the same for all Near Eastern peoples in America), but it is imparative that the actual case be mentioned, such as the development of the label, and opinion among Arabs of it. I think most people in New England (where I live) would agree an "Arab" is not white, at least a "pure" Arab (non-mixed). That has been my experience and my family's experience for several generations. I'm not saying all Arabs are not white or are, but one must discuss the complexities of Arab Americans in the Arab American article and not just dismiss them using phoney racial classifications, that are no longer used by government. Sure we're caucasians listed as white, but do people treat us that way in every day life? That is one of the major issues in the community today among leaders and those who think about these sorts of (I think stupid) matters. El Moro —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.37.53.43 (talk) 02:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

to the person who claims that "In recent centuries, there has been a major influx of Europeans into middle eastern countries; the result of which has been a number of lighter skinned people living in this region": this is absolute nonsense. although there has indeed been an influx of europeans with lighter skin into the levant and, to a lesser extent, the middle east at large, the impact on the overall skin colour of arabs in the region is negligible. however, for all those who start claiming the arabs as a "separate ancient race" you should be careful when buying into these mystified ideas of origin. the arabs of today, those being inhabitants of north africa and the middle east whose native language is arabic, are not a homogenic race but have mixed with all kinds of people over the centuries. for example, the turkish peoples of central asia, the different peoples of persia, nubians, egyptians, berbers etc. racial classifications based on skin tone are also rather ambiguous since every larger country or region will be inhabited by people of different skin tones, whether they belong to the same nation/ethnicity/people or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.81.254.24 (talk) 00:36, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

In fact Ethiopians and Somalians are also Caucasians, with Caucasoid features, even if they are not white.--83.53.110.208 (talk) 15:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I am from Spain and I think to the Arabs and to the Indians it has happened something similar to Latinamericans. Even if Spaniards are white, millions of indians and blacks participate in the colonisation (now assimilation) process, so now both a black and a blonde can be Latinos, depending on their ancestors. The process is going in a similar way to the one in North Africa and the Mideast hundreds of years ago or in India thousands of years ago. In India Aryans were white but mixed with indigenous populations and with other, more recent, immigrants, after they arrived to India 3.500 years ago. Latinamerica is just 3.000 years behind, but the mix is already strong, a majority of the population in many countries. So now "Latino" in the U.S. is becoming equivalent to a Racial group.--83.53.110.208 (talk) 15:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Where is your Proof that Latin America mix is going strong? You don't have any. And Latino is becoming a racial category to the ignorant American. Latino is not a race or an ethnicity. Mestizos sees Latino as a race because they need an identity to latch on to. Even though Latin America is a diverse population, Whites in places such as north Mexico and south Brazil are isolated and will unlikely mix outside their racial/ethnic barrier. Latin America is more diverse than the middle east. There are actually full blooded Europeans that immigrant to Latin America every year. A lot of People in Latin America are descendants of European, African, and Asia immigrants while people in the middle East are mostly indigenous to their land. And what is that idiot above talking about ""light-skinned" Latino"? Does he even know what a Hispanic/Latino is in America? There is no such thing as a Light skinned Latino unless that Latino is not White. Secret killer (talk) 04:25, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

''It is a joke indeed.I am from North India with some Arab ancestry (Awan). Many Keralites (of Kerala State) are pure Arabs and many Sindhis of Sindh Pakistan are of Arab ancestry. In general, these groups have a darker skin then those of the upper Indian casts, such as Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishiyas or even Punjabi Jats. Yet we all got the Caucasian bone structure that we share with Somalis,Indo Aryans, Semitic & Kushitic Ethiopians, Arabs and Iranians or even Europeans. I agree that some Middle Easterners are looking white. But they are NOT the original inhabitants of the "Middle East" as they are mostly of Iranian, Kurdish, Armenian, Circassian, European Jews, Khazar, Turkoman, Greek (also Turkified Byzantinias), Georgian and decendants of other splinter groups such as Greeks & crusaders or decendants of white Slav and Circassian slaves. All these are not original inhabitants of the Middle East, but groups that moved there in historic times.For instance, Iranians & Kurds hailed from Central Asia during the Skythian & Turk expansion. Since more than 60 percent of Arab Americans are hailing from areas where all these groups mingled at an incredible degree (Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Iran) and many Levant refugees being Christians, they fought countless battles for "whiteness" in order to be able to naturalize as US citizins. But that doesn't justify classifying all Middle Easterners as white. Unless dark brown skin will be labeled "white". The original inhabitants where clearly not white.Even original Canaanites where not white.Indians and Arabs are not "one" race but a mosaic of many races. It also explains the Indian caste system or the Arab Tribal systems. We are bot not a homogenous race. There should be a separate Middle Eastern and Indian Category with the option to opt for white Indian (Pathans, and other light skinned casts) and White Arab (Those Lebanese that are white or want to be white). But how in gods name is a pure Arab from Oman, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Sudan or Libiya ever being considered a white person?? In fact, these groups face some of the worst racial discrimination of all races, unless they are billionaires or jet setters. 95.223.187.171 (talk) 16:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Being semetic implies only that you speak a sub language it isnt a race. Neither is being Aryan. Armenians can be dark, but are still caucasion. There are only 5 human races you can identify with meaning you have certain areas that determine your race by sweat glands. Middle eastern people are caucasion nimrod! There is no race called "ARAB" its an ethnicity. Some Kurds are white, and dark regardless speak an Aryan language similar to Armenian they are caucasion. Languages dont determine your race. The area of your birth does, and continent. Hell, I prefer to be white over anything. Why would I make my life harder by identifying with a group who not only do I have no affiliation racially with, but do not have a similar culture with. Jews are white speak a semetic language. Get over it. Either you study this subject which I do, or your just a Arab who wants to be ghetto! Look it geniouses. Your sweat glands determine everything. The part where you sweat on your body for instance your forhead, under arms, etc...caucasion people sweat heavily fromthe under arms as do Middle eastern people, and yes, genetically speaking everyone is mixed heritedary. You may speak arabic, but your great, great, great, crusader daddy may have been French, German, Roman, etc..My fiance is Assyrian and even though she is definitely not arab she identifies as white. She has bluer eyes then me, and im German. She also has french, german ancestory according to a DNA test she took, but still says shes assyrian because of her culture. In studies Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese are the regions along with Egypt most likely mixed with European blood! Iraq has had greek, Roman, even in recent years english people invade it. Although at the time of Romans, and Greeks Arabs were not living largely in Mesopotamia. It was Assyrians, Babylonians (same people) who were pretty much concentrated there. As for Iranians whom i feel dont have anymore affiliation with ancient Persia being they are practically arabized, Islamasized. It ruins the culture. Go to college, and learn people it helps! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.141.6 (talk) 09:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC) ''

Famous Arab Americans
I think this is a very nice list, but I think it needs to be in a seperate article, and this seperate article should be called List of Arab Americans.--Gramaic 00:06, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

as i know. amin nazem zadeh is persian and not arab !!!!

I suggest you take off DJ Khaled. He doesn't make us Arabs proud. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EnterPuppets (talk • contribs) 03:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Fahrid Murray Abraham shouldnt be on the list since his father is just born in syria, but his background is Assyrian (which aren't arabs)and his mother is Italian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 55yy55hh (talk • contribs) 14:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with the F. Murray Abraham, and I hardly think most of Jewsish Arabs regard themselves as "arabs". Since when did Arabs take pride in Jews???

This Pan arabism needs to stop. Its the propoganda of arabizing everyone. People have different cultures, and languages in the middle east. I know many Assyrians, and Maronites who dont identify themselves as Arab. Christa Macaullifs mother Grace George whom I met personally has noted that she is Lebanese, and Maronite. She herself said she does not identify herself as Arab. Same with F. Murray Abraham. Shakira, and Salma Hayek have maronite fathers, and never say they are arab. In many interviews Salma says she is Lebanese, and only Lebanese from her fathers side, and Mexican from her mothers side. Arabs need a kick in the ass. They refuse to modernize, and take advantage of the cultures who have escaped from the middle east. I as a German was so impressed by the fact they arabs still try to convert even identities. No matter how hard they try it makes no difference. People know what they are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.171.47.105 (talk) 01:31, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Changing some numbers
The numbers at the top and bottom of the page don't match in terms of total Arabs in America. The number on the bottom is official, I'm changing the top.

CorneliusStump 21:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Need comment at deletion discussion
Please see the discussion here -- this needs more input from editors who actually work in this area. Badagnani 16:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

"The overwhelming majority of Arab Americans, or some 80%, are Christians, while only 20% are Muslims, and the remaining 10% are of other faiths, agnostics or atheists." - was this written by someone with dyslexia or is it true that 110% of all arab americans belong to one of the three groups mentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.81.254.24 (talk) 00:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Spy Kids Alexander Minion.JPG
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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Identity
"Due to a conflation of terms, in its broadest sense "Arab American" may include people who do not in fact identify as Arab." This seems kind of offensive to me. If they don't call themselves Arab, who is Wikipedia to tell them they are wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nincomp (talk • contribs) 11:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

What the person above me has written is contradictory. It is kind of like saying about an African American, 'if this guy doesnt call himself black he shouldn't be labeled as black'. As a matter of fact, everyone including Wikipedia and the government would consider the man black. Am I wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luai Al Assad (talk • contribs) 14:09, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, apart from Sinai Beduines, most Egyptians would rather being labeled as "Egyptian" then "Arab" even if they speak Arabic. It's a well established fact that many nations in the Middle East and North Africa had their own civilizations, culture and languages. While some groups preserved their culture and languages (such as some Berber groups), others lost theirs or only preserved their's in a liturgical context as a result of the Arab conquest.Nonetheless, these groups still have a shared memory of being an "arabized nation".This feelings are specially strong amongst Egyptians, (many) Lebanese and (some) Syrians. Yet, they are also Arabs and decendants of Arab tribes in those nations, but often they do not form the majority of the expatriate populations in the US. In this sense, I think the statement:

"Due to a conflation of terms, in its broadest sense "Arab American" may include people who do not in fact identify as Arab."

is a legitimate one.Could be compared to Mexicans being labeled as Spanish (e.g Hispanic), simply because they forcefully adopted Spanish langauge and Roman Catholicism while many Mexicans have an awarenes of being decendants of ancient pre columbian nations even if they lost their native tongues and religions. 95.223.187.171 (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Populations
Can we get populations of Arab Americans in each city (especially Detroit/Dearborn and New York City)? Badagnani (talk) 22:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

 * My advice is consult www.census.gov for data reports about the total population of Arab Americans by ethnic self-identification from the 2000 Census report. The third largest communities are Detroit, New York and Chicago; although I believe the Los Angeles area and San Diego may surpassed them by now. Be in mind not all Arab Americans are "Arab", in addition they could be of ethnic Armenian, Iranian, Jewish, Somali, Turkic and Berber ancestry from an Arabic-speaking country in Southwest Asia or/and North Africa. + 71.102.36.5 (talk) 10:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Percentage
The opening paragraph of the article states the following:

The overwhelming majority of Arab Americans, or some 80%, are Christians, while only 20% are Muslims, and the remaining 10% are of other faiths, agnostics or atheists.

Not only are the figures not sourced (no citation is given), but they don't add up as well, since the total is placed at 110%. Anyone care to do some research and clarify? Vargher (talk) 22:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The Arab American institute says 63% are Christians and 24% Muslim, while 13% is agnositc or atheist. I'll make the change.  http://www.aaiusa.org/arab-americans/22/demographics Inf fg (talk) 17:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The county percentages of Arab-Americans of the Portland, Oregon metro area has risen to above 3 percent in the 2010 census report, compared to 1.5 to 2 percent in the 2000's. The Portland Arab community has grown especially by the prospects offered in Oregon, started with the suburban real estate booms in the Pacific Northwest. They usually came from older established Arab communities of Michigan and Illinois, attracted to white-collar jobs and the area's thriving technological sector. The Portland Arab community is concentrated at upper-middle class suburbs of Beaverton, Oregon. + 71.102.12.55 (talk) 11:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Also in terms of percentage it says the total population of arabs in the us is 1 million something and the percentage is just a bit over 1%. I hope we all realize this makes no sense whatsoever. If the arab population is 1 million something the percentage of the population is closer to .3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.242.49.81 (talk) 02:23, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

People who shouldn't have pics in the opening
Mitch Daniels is not even arab according to any link I have seen and Shannon Elizabeth is not really important. I think we should take both off and add Jim Jabara who is much more important and has places named after him.PonileExpress (talk) 21:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Syrians or Lebanese?
i guess it's not creditable to separate the both countries origin since they both got the same background and family mixing since thousands years! Lebanese claimed to be Phoenicians which it's somehow not true cuz the Phoenicians were also in the Syrian and Palestinian coast!! genetically syrian and lebanese are a match not to mention that the whole area share nearly everything ( food, music , tradition , history ) but due the modern day searching for famous identities to bring some pride for the countries i've noticed that there is always a conflict between Syrians and Lebanese about the origin issues for example when there is someone from a clearly Syrian origin somehow he\she became Syrian\Lebanese origin in wikipidia!! or sometimes people without sources proving their origin they became lebanese!! sometimes there is people became Lebanese just because they were born or lived few years there!? to solve this problem we need to define the word Origin! and that demands knowing the real roots of the person family which need reliable sources ...some could not be Arabs ethnically ( Kurds - Armenians - Assyrians - Turkmens - Circassians ) but they live in the country thousand years ago, this would be mention also when it come to the Origin issue as a background. after words... when it comes to American people who belong the whole Levant region ( Syria - Lebanon - Jordan - Palestine ) the origin country shouldn't be mention without a creditable source and study which is the main rule of Wikipedia ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChaosLogics (talk • contribs) 14:32, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Nice try pal, Lebanese and Syrians have no relation whatsoever. Get it through your head. Also, Lebanese aren't Arabs, so they shouldn't be on this page. Rik Spoutnik (talk) 07:13, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

 * What are you talking about? The Lebanese and Syrians are of the same origin, and they are both Arabs, and studies show that the genetic makeup of the Lebanese is similar to the Arabs of the Levant and Damascus, and where did you come from? The Lebanese are not Arabs. Who are you to deny our origin only based on your biased, illogical desires, and the Arabs in Lebanon were from before Islam and Christianity, so let you know this 5.45.140.195 (talk) 13:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Changes to the gallery
Steve Jobs doesn't belong in the gallery, I'm sorry. I realize he has Arab roots, but he's far from being "Arab-American". Besides, there are so many other well-known and equally worthy Arab Americans who can be in this gallery such as the late Edward Said, James/John Zogby and Ralph Nader.

In general, I find the gallery very weak, not only because of the horrid formatting, but because it doesn't really rouse the attention...I mean, I'm Arab and I don't find any of these people attention-grabbing (apart from Shannon Elizabeth, George Mitchel and Tony Shalhoub). Imagine what others would think. 04:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahm2307 (talk • contribs)

The "Racial Status" Section is Ridiculously POV
It's full of opinion and not much in the way of fact. Implying that the idea of a Middle Eastern race is "false" is absurd, seeing as race itself is not a biological reality. ALL of the current racial categories used in the US Census are arbitrary - People from the Indian subcontinent are lumped in with people from East Asia in the "Asian" category, for example. Race is a subjective, socially-defined concept, and if you look at how the US Census has changed over the years you can see how this is true. It is only within the past decade that Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders were made their own category separate from Asians. Even earlier than that, "Asian" was divided into many categories like "Chinese", "Japanese", "Korean", and "Hindu" races. If people of Middle Eastern origin do not want to identify themselves as Caucasian, they shouldn't have to... They certainly haven't been treated as white people in American society. --74.220.50.16 (talk) 06:55, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Arabs??????
Hi everybody, I'm sorry to say that but many of North-African people you quoted here aren't Arabs but Berbers. (Yasmine Bleeth is of Algerian Kabyle descent,as well as Sanaa Hamri who is from Tangiers whose inhabitants are mainly of berber descent). Additionnally,I'll say that the overwhelming majority of North-Africans are Berbers according to Genetic studies that have been made on several people of these regions... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.250.215.68 (talk) 12:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Another person is Isabella Adjani whos father is actually is Kabayle. It makes no difference in the western eyes. These people are not regarded arabs, but westernized iddle eastern people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.171.47.105 (talk) 01:33, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

AND, many others quoted here are in fact Assyrians and Marronites, who are not Arabs, they just live in the same area. They are completely distinct ethnic groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.178.211 (talk) 11:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments on some "questionable" Arab Americans highlighted in infobox
I was making changes to some very dubious entries in the infobox of the page. All my edits were reverted by a colleague User:Jeppiz by this entry: mentioning need for concensus after discussing on a talk page. So here are my notes of why certain individuals are not at all fit to be highlighted as typical Arab Americans. Feelfree to comment on any one or all to reach a concensus as required:
 * Shakira: she is considered mainly Colombian. I am not even sure she did acquire American nationality much later, but regardless not a good candidate for "Arab American"
 * Salma Hayek: she is considered mainly Mexican. She did acquire US nationality much later, but again, as Shakira, hardly a typical candidate for "Arab American"
 * Wentworth Miller: Even according to our Wikipedia page, he is of African-American, Cherokee, Dutch, English, French, German, Jamaican, Jewish, Lebanese, Syrian origin. For lack of Arab known characters, is this what we come with for an example to highlight as Arab American? Really? Sure he is paritally Arab, so he takes over genuine Arab Americans?
 * Vince Vaughn: Very similar to Wentworth Miller case. This actor is Canadian, English, German, Irish, Italian and Lebanese origin. Again, is this the best example that we can come up with and highlight, just because of a partial Lebanese ancestry?
 * Shannon Elizabeth: According to her page, she is English, German, Irish, Cherokee, and Syrian descent. This is just like the preceeding two, a dubious Arab American choice.
 * Some, at best secondary figures are Catherine Keener, Rima Fakih and Marlo Thomas.

These comments are not to be judgmental. But consider the choices I had made that were en masse deleted just for "need of discussion"... I had added and now are reversed for these individuals instead as truly typical Arab Americans:
 * Kahlil Gibran, Lebanese origin writer, philosopher, artist
 * Donna Shalala, US Secretary of Health and Human Services under President Bill Clinton, President of the University of Miami, chancellor of the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor, by President George W. Bush
 * Edward Said, Palestinian professor, scholar, political analyst, avid writer
 * Casey Kasem, enigmatic entertainment guru and radio personality, founder of the American Top 40 across the States
 * DJ Khaled, Palestinian rapper of huge hits. See: DJ Khaled discography

The choices we presently have of Colombian Shakira, Mexican Salma Hayek, multi-ethnic Wentworth Miller, Vince Vaughn, Shannon Elizabeth of slight distant Arab descent or secondary figures? Or Gibran, Said, Kasem Shalala that we don't have. Please provide comments. werldwayd (talk) 15:55, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Thank you for discussing. Let me make it clear that I don't disagree with you. On the contrary, I think most of your suggestions are good. My reversions builds on the need to discuss substantial changes of this kind before making them, as they may otherwise lead to unnecessary edit warring. I would recommend waiting two or three says. If nobody disagree, then go ahead and make the replacements.Jeppiz (talk) 15:59, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Where are the Black or "Mixed" Arabs?
How come all of these so-called arabs are white or white-like? Most don't even call themselves arabs because they know that they are not. Lebanon is the most unArab nation that is considered Arabic-speaking. Most arabs are not even arabs as REAL arabs (black) used Turks (REAL white people) as slaves to invade Africa as arab numbers were so low. We all know, but tend to no mention that Turks taking over the arab conquests and running the show. TURKS are white, with red hair and blue eyes to boot! I know about the "Lawrence of Arabia" story, but I don't recall hearing about a Turkish exodus!

All the WHITE Turks did was change their names and start calling themselves arabs in order to keep the land. You can even go on Youtube and see videos of Turk (Albanian) controllers of Egypt in the 50's for proof. So any white arab is a Turk or a Greek or Slav origins. Many Arab-Americans have clear black traits like a Tony Shalub with his hair or gangster Eddie Nash with his hair and lips. They also shorten or change their names to mask their origins. If they were so 'arab,' they would keep their names. Most are not even muslims either.

My point is, when you look up the "Arab-American Institute," you will find that it is really a "WHITE Arab-American Institute." Everyone they deal with are white are whiter looking. I never come across the Sudanese, the Omani or any black or black looking arabs or the mixed whom many regard as the pure arab, but of course no one can really point us to a pure arab because no one knows what that is. We need to show a balance or else I am left with the impression that the AAI exists only to promote whiteness and to demonstrate why they should be white. It can also be argued that they are white supremacists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.8.197.169 (talk) 15:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Paula Abdul is actually Jewish American not even really Arab, her father was a Syrian Jew and these people didn't consider themselves Arab.PacificWarrior101 (talk) 16:20, 9

December 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Are you Crazy? A] - Arabs are a Semitic people, and are not and never were Black. B] Turks never ran the Arab Islamic conquest, they came much later. C] Turks have never regarded themselves as Arabs. D] Turks were originally of Mongoloid appearance, not blue eyed and red haired. They look more Meditteranean only because they mixed with the Caucasoid natives of Asia Minor. D] The peoples of the near east have never been blacks, Arabs, Assyrians, Canaanites, Jews etc are all olive skinned Caucasoid peoples, and always were.

Please add Reliable sources on why you think Arabs are black, even though I think Arabs never were black, to begin with. I also agree with the last comment that original Turks have Mongolid features and not European. Dalal 1999 (talk) 11:34, 1 January 2019 (UTC)Dalal 1999

Ridiculous, whitewashed photo of people who are entirely or mostly European
Mitch Daniels and Ralph Nader do not identify as Arab and their ancestors came from Greece, not the Arabian Peninsula; their parents belonged to the Greek minority in Syria. Paula Abdul is not of Arab ancestry, but Sephardic Jewish ancestry. Calling any of these people "Arab" because they immigrated from Arab countries is like calling a white south african immigrant "African American." Jenna Dewan, Shannon Elizabeth and Christa McAullife are of mostly European ancestry, and seem to be chosen for the fact that they look more like their European parents than their Arab ones. It's mildly absurd and more than a little offensive that almost everyone in the picture has 'white' features, despite the fact that -- U.S. census definitions aside -- most Arab Americans do not look and are not perceived to be white. Let's get more diverse and accurate photos, please, of Arabs of a variety of complexions and ancestries, not just Lebanese people (who tend to look 'whiter' because they have more European ancestry), but Yemeni, Egyptian, etc. Steeletrap (talk) 09:48, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Page looks better now -- more representative of diverse Arab community. The people who are just blatantly not arab (no ancestry or identification) have been removed. Thanks to User:Werldwayd for the help! Steeletrap (talk) 18:47, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ralph Nader is of Armenian or part-Armenian descent, and they are definitely not Arabs.Lathamibird (talk) 03:59, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * What exactly is your illness? That Ralph Nader is an Arab person, where he came from, that he is Armenian, and I even assumed that if he were not Armenian, he would be half that. What is this childishness? And Paula Abdul is also Arab. Judaism is a religion, not an ethnic group. 5.45.140.195 (talk) 15:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

All Lebanese people on this page should be removed, because 1) Lebanese Christians are not Arabs (and they believe this overwhelmingly), and 2) they literally could be Boer farmers if you just saw their face. Rik Spoutnik (talk) 07:14, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Arab culture, a culture that is Deeply Loved by Americans and Europeans
There are some people in Indonesia who want to make Islam in Indonesia entirely native by removing all the things that they perceive as Arab culture. However, they often get it wrong. Everthings that they don't agree immediately branded as Arab culture. Certainly that is not always the case. I consider them careless. I wonder why they became fervently anti-Arab culture. They always call themselves as pluralists, and of course it means honoring and respecting all cultures. However, in reality they are not tolerant to all existing cultures.

The problem is, if they really want to get rid of Arab culture, there would be a lot of sciences and musical intruments that would be threw away, including Javanese and European instruments. For example is rebab, the Javanese fiddle. This is originally an Arab instrument. Its original name is rabab, after entering Indonesia it is called rebab. In Europe it is called rebec, which gradually evolved into a variety of bowed instruments, including the violin. Are we going to throw away violin, this beautiful Arab instrument? Well, Paganini, Mozart, Stradivarius and his friends would be furious. Meanwhile, in Java since long ago rebab has become an integral part of gamelan orchestra. Should we get rid the rebab as well? Well, our dalangs would be furious.

Okay, I'll give three references about the violin and rebec, violin ancestor which came from the Middle East. From Encarta, Britannica and Wikipedia. You also can read The Rebec Project.

1). The viola, which evolved from unstandardized medieval fiddles, is first depicted in early 16th-century pictures. Like most other instruments of the Renaissance, it was built in a range of sizes that, together, made up a consort. Small violas (violins), large ones held between the knees (violoncellos; see Cello), and even larger ones played standing up (violones) were the specialty of Italian artisans such as the Amati family and Antonio Stradivari. The pochette or kit, a miniature violin-type instrument played by dancing masters, often had a one-piece body and neck carved from a block of wood; it thus resembled the medieval rebec, the name and shape of which were in turn derived from the Middle Eastern rabab. (“Musical Instruments”, Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2002).

2). Rebec: bowed, stringed musical instrument of European medieval and early Renaissance music. It was originally called a rubebe, developed about the 11th century from the similar Arab rabāb, and was carried to Spain with Muslim culture. ("rebec." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2010).

The word lira, a misapplication of lyra, the ancient Greek lyre played with a plectrum, had appeared by the 9th century for the Byzantine form of the Arab rabāb, the ancestor of all European bowed instruments. ("lira." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2010).

3). The rebec (sometimes rebecha, rebeckha, and originally various other spellings, pronounced /ˈriːbɛk/ or /ˈrɛbɛk/) is a bowed string musical instrument. In its most common form, it has a narrow boat-shaped body and 1-5 strings and is played on the arm or under the chin, like a violin. It is also an ancestor of the violin.

The instrument did remain in use by dance masters until the 18th century, however, often being used for the same purpose as the kit, a small pocket-sized violin. The rebec also continued to be used in folk music, especially in eastern Europe and Spain. Andalusi nubah, a genre of music from North Africa, often includes the rebec. (Rebec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

The lute (al-'ud) was another Arab instrumen that also very popular in Europe. Many famous composers in Europe composed songs for lute, including Johann Sebastian Bach. While in Europe it is called the lute, in Indonesia it is called gambus, which is also very popular here. After I explained this, you now understand why gambus and kasidah always include the violin in its performance. Because the violin is an Arab instrumen. Because Islam influence entered Europe from  Spain, then surely no coincidence that one variants of the lute, the guitar, is from Spain, so we have the term "Spanish guitar".

The compositions for lute also can be played with guitars. It certainly shows that both instruments are closely related. For example you can see on youtube the work of Johann Sebastian Bach for the lute, the Prelude from Lute Suite no. 4 played with guitar by John Williams, and he perform it at Alhambra palace. Certainly we already know the beauty of the Alhambra Palace, build by the Arabs.

So, it is very difficult to get rid of the Arab culture because J.S. Bach and his friends were also al-'ud lovers and their works still play by many classical musicians around the world. Because many people don’t know about it, they become anti-Arab and want to get rid of Arab culture. Due to their lack of knowledge.

And surprised!! The banjo, a country music instrument that is considered a native instrument of rural America, also descended from that Arab instrument, the lute (al-'ud). It brought by black people who seized by slave traders and then sold to plantations in the South. Banjo ancestor in the West African is a variant of lute. See history of the banjo at Banjo Ancestors.

Arab culture have influenced West Africa long before the arrival of the white man. The ancestor of banjo came from Senegal, Gambia and Guinea, the majority of their population are Muslim. Senegal 92%, Gambia 90%, and Guinea 85%. Guinea Bissau is often included because it has significant Muslim population, 35%. But, the largest country is Senegal (Gambia and Guinea Bissau are only tiny country) so most expert prefer to associate the banjo with Senegal. Guinea is also a large country, but it located rather inland. On youtube there is a banjo performance From Senegal to Seeger. You may watch it. Seeger is an American banjo player. Here is a brief description of the show.

Protest, passion, politics, poetry - the banjo is the voice of the people, and 'From Senegal to Seeger' unshackles that voice. 'From Senegal to Seeger' is a journey into Americana - a social and political portrait of America through the eyes of the banjo.

In this 90 minute tour-de-force Michael plays music that spans 300 years and charts the transformation of the banjo from an African instrument to the quintessential expression of the American voice. (From Senegal to Seeger - Stories of the American Banjo)

So, if we see cowboys dancing accompanied with violin and banjo, they actually enjoy the Arab culture. They would be really angy if you want to get rid of Arab culture, they would lynch you and shoot you. :D

Btw, we can't blame Cassius Clay when he changed his name to Muhammad Ali. Also Karim Abdul Jabbar and other blacks. Because many black people ancestors are Muslims, those who brought the banjo to the American continent. But Malcolm X simply remove his last name, changed it to X, to cut his association with his forefather's master.

In science, the contribution of Muslim scientist among others is in mathematics, which we know as algebra and algorisme, which is a compulsory subject at school throughout world. Actually it is not the work of an Arab because Al-Khwarizmi was a Persian, from Khwarizm, which is now part of Uzbekistan. So, it is more appropriately if we call it Islamic science. However, Al-Khwarizmi lived in Arab land. He was born during the rule of Harun Ar-Rashid, the legendary caliph of the Abbasid dynasty. When he was a child he moved with his parents to Baghdad, Iraq, an Arab country. Then he served at the court of Caliph Al-Ma'mun, the son of Harun Ar-Rashid. He wrote all his works in Arabic, the official language of the Abbasid empire. Al-khwarizmi also introduced Hindu-Arabic numbers to Europe, so we called it Arabic numerals. Arabic numerals (Arabic Numeral) is 1,2,3 ... . the figures that we used in modern mathematics. Modern mathematics does not use the Roman numerals. Impossible, it would be very difficult. Another Muslim mathematician was Omar Khayyam, although now he is more famous as a poet. Of course there are many more other Muslim scientists. You may googling it yourself.

Western Europeans also did not study Greek philosophy in Athens, the academy in Athens had long been in ruin. They did not study in Rome, too, because Rome had long been in ruin as well. Western Europeans studied Greek philosophy, mathematics and other sciences to Arab professors, especially in the universities in Spain.

Islamic Contributions to Medieval Europe were numerous, affecting such varied areas as art, architecture, medicine, agriculture, music, language, and technology. From the 11th to 13th centuries, Europe Absorbed knowledge from the Islamic civilization. Of particular importance was the rediscovery of the ancient classic texts, most Notably the work of the Greek natural philosopher Aristotle, through retranslations from Arabic.

During the 11th and 12th centuries, many Christian scholars Travelled to Muslim lands to learn sciences. Notable examples include, Leonardo Fibonacci, Adelard of Bath and Constantine the African. Also, from the 11th to the 14th centuries, numerous European Muslim students attended centers of higher learning (which the author calls "universities") to study medicine, philosophy, mathematics, cosmography and other subjects. ("Islamic Contributions to Medieval Europe", Wikipedia)

After they graduated, European students returned to their countries and brought with them Arab culture and sciences that they had learned in Arab lands. And before long Europe awaken, the Renaissance then began. The Renaissance is impossible without transfering sciences from Arab professors to their students from Western Europe. Beside wikipedia, all history books also state that Western Europeans studied Greek philosophy, mathematics and other sciences from Arab professors. You may read them, too.

Arabs themselves still feel superior over Europe until the time of Napoleon. When Napoleon conquered Egypt, the Arabs realized the progress in science and technology that has been achieved by Europe. Previously they despised Europe and considered it still backward as during the Crusade era. Only after Napoleon counquering Egypt the Arabs realized they need to learn from Europe.

If we trace it back further, some Arabic-Islamic science and culture came from many other regions, such as from Persia, India, Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Central Asia and others. However, scientists and artists of Arab-Islam who developed it, refined and spread it all over the world, both to the West and to the East. From the Atlantic coast of Western Europe and Western Africa to the Pacific Ocean. And of course along the thousands of miles of silk road. Before the era of Western dominance, the culture that dominated the world about a thousand years was Arabic culture. A very long period indeed. So, don't be surprised if Arab culture took rooted everywhere, all over the world. For a thousand years the Arabs wandered everywhere, bringing with them their culture and science. It is certainly different from the Greco-Roman culture because their influence only limited in the Mediterranean. The Greeks and the Romans never travel to sub-Saharan, exploring the silk road, let alone sailied to the Pacific Ocean.

So, it would be difficult if we intend to discard Arab culture. It has been so pervasive and spread throughout the world, both to the West and the East, and its origin often forgotten and many people consider it as local culture, such as fiddle and kebaya in Indonesia (from Arabic abaya). If you want to know further about Arab contributions to the world, please browse the internet. Perhaps the people who anti-Arab think that the Arab culture are only a turban and robe. Thats wrong, brothers. I think you need to learn more about Arab culture.

How then about Javanese and Malay culture? Will they someday able to influence the development of world culture as the Arab culture? It all depends on the artists here. But, the most unfortunate is they whose works only berate Arab culture, but they never contribute anything to the development of the world culture, let alone the world sciences. Nil.

Acculturation

When I was still in college I was asked by a lecturer from ISI (Institut Seni Indonesia = Indonesia Institute of Arts) about foreign cultures that flow incessantly into Indonesia. He is my brother's friend. All my brothers are ISI graduate, they studied classical music there. Now it located in Sewon, Bantul, D.I. Yogyakarta. Therefore, I know history and origin of some classical instruments because sometime I read their textbooks. I myself who is not an artist. I am just a good audience. :D

Well, after thinking for a moment I answered that it is inevitable. Both in former time and present. However, as time goes by, there will be a process of acculturation, a blending of local and foreign cultures. Eventually, foreign cultures will be adapted by the locals, even regarded them as their own culture. For example keroncong, a Portuguese music, lenso dance which also brought by the Portuguese, wayang from India, and rebab from Arabia and many others. Now we regard all those foreign culture as our own national culture. The same would happen to many cultures that now we consider them "foreigners". Eventually, it will enrich our culture that already exist today.

Actually, we have adopt a lot of foreign cultures in our daily life. Even in food, such as bakso, tofu and noodles from China, Italian pizza, martabak India and many others. In clothing we know that our everyday clothes all come from abroad, such as trousers, shirts, T-shirts, shorts, hats and our formal clothing. But, we have accept them and do not complains about them and don't want to forbid people to eat or wear them. It has been regarded as our national food and clothing.

Sometimes a foreign music that is considered very "dangerous" and offensive, threatening young people such as rock music, did not last for long. It cannot survive for centuries such as wayang and keroncong. Until the late 80s, on the walls and in the streets, on the sticker, or school textbooks there is often the phrase "Rock Will Never Die", and at the time it looks like so because rock music was very popular. Everywhere there were graffiti of Hellowen, Metallica, Scorpion, GnR, Rush, Van Halen, Mick Jagger tongue and so on. At that time the ears of older generation became very miserable. The teachers not only brought textbooks in their arm, but also brought scissors to cut students long hair. However, now we can safely say that "Rock Nearly Die".

By the mid-90's, pictures of unkemp long-haired musicians were taken down and replaced by boys band, such as NKOTB and others, whose personnels introduced clean-cut appearance. Rock also replaced by grunge music such as Nirvana. Even Metallica personnels cut their hair short, their songs also became more calm, to adapt to the changing market, which was already bored with rock music and looking for an alternative music. Arguably teenager of 1980s and early 1990s were the last generation who saw rock music as mainstream music. After this generation, rock music presumably would also gone forever, and become only a nostagia music of a gone-by era. The rock generation then replaced with Korean music generation and Gangnam style fans.

So, why should we fear the invasion of a foreign culture? That is too narrow-minded. Moreover, it don't necessarily long-lasting. Foreign cultures that can survive until modern time their origins had long been forgotten and now is considered as local culture, and enriching our local culture such as wayang, rebab and keroncong. Therefore, I always oppose cultural puritanism/Wahhabism that wants to get rid all the foreign cultures. Why? We eat food foreign everyday such as cassava (from South America), rice (from mainland Asia) and corn (from South America). And of course bread and supermie, obviously not native Indonesia, even wheat is never planted in Indonesia. But all people here, even who is fervently anti-foreign culture like to eat all those foreign food. Not consistent. And our native food, sago, had been abandoned altogether long ago, except in eastern Indonesia. But, all those foreign food are now considered Indonesia traditional food and enriching local diet. So, why should we fear the invasion of foreign culture? Of course it must bring benefit, and not destuctive. Eventually, foreign cultures that are now still considered "foreigners" will become part of our national culture and must be conserved as well.

Arab culture, a culture that is Deeply Loved by Americans and Europeans :: StPiningit Blog http://helmijuni.blogspot.com/2013/12/arab-culture-culture-that-is-deeply.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.111.51.49 (talk) 15:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Non-Arabs labelled as Arabs?
Many people originating from what are today Arabic speaking nations are not in fact Arabs, nor do they classify themselves as such. Most of the Christian population of the Middle East is almost by definition Pre-Arab, descending from the old races extant prior to the Arab-Islamic Conquest. At least Some of these are falsely labelled as Arabs, or included wrongly as Arabs. Some obvious examples of Non-Arabs are;

1. Assyrians (Chaldo-Assyrians, Chaldeans) - Mesopotamian East Aramaic speaking Descendants of the pre-Arab populations of Assyria/Northern Mesopotamia, northeast Syria, southeast Turkey and northwest Iran. These people do not even speak Arabic, and have never been regarded as Arabs in their 5000 year history. Their historical continuity, genetics, language and culture are all pre-Arab, non-Arab and distinct from Arabs. Even the early Arabs called them Assyrians (Ashuriyun).

2. Arameans-Syriacs - Most Christians from Syria (excluding the Assyrian north east corner) are of Pre-Arab Aramean ancestry, and advocate an Aramean identity. These originally all spoke Western Aramaic, a few still do, and they are genetically distinct from Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula. Migrant communities of Syrian Christians in Europe, eg; Sweden, Germany, France etc never call themselves Arab, they are either Aramean, Syriac or Assyrian.

3 Maronites/Phonecians - Lebanese Christians do not generally regard themselves as Arabs, but often specifically as Lebenese, Maronite or Phoenician. They too are Pre Arab people, whose ancient roots lie in Phoenicia, which was the modern coasts of Lebanon and Syria. Migrant communities of Lebanese Christians in Europe, eg; Sweden, Germany, France etc never call themselves Arab, they are either Phoenician, Syriac or Aramean.

4. Egyptians/Egyptian Copts - DNA analysis shows that modern Egyptians are pretty much the same genetically as the Ancient pre-Arabic speaking Egyptians. And in the case of the Egyptian Copts, they still spoke Egyptian until the 18th century, and still do in church. The Muslim population may have mixed with Muslim Arabs, the Christian population certainly did not, and Egyptian Coptic Christians never refer to themselves as Arabs.

5. Middle Eastern Jews - Jews native to Israel/Jordan/Palestine, and those who migrated from there to Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Egypt and North Africa are ethnically Jews/Hebrews, and not Arab converts. Genetically and culturally they are distinct from Arabs, and like the Assyrians, Arameans, Maronites, Egyptians and Mandeans, they are undoubtedly Pre-Arab, and should not be included as Arabs. No native Mid Eastern Jew/Hebrew would claim Arab ancestry.

6. Mandeans - are an ethno-religious Semitic minority people. Again, they are non-Arab, Pre-Arab and do not even speak Arabic, they are of ancient Canaanite-Mesopotamian stock.

7. Berbers - These are the Indigenous peoples of Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco and of the Western and Northern Sahara since pre history. They are not Arabs, were there before the Arabs, many still speak Berber, and they are genetically distinct from Arabs. They never regard themselves as Arab either.

8. Armenians - Indo European speakers, been in the region 2500 years, clearly non Arab

9. Kurds - Indo European speakers from ancient Corduenne, 1500 years ago.

10. Greeks - Indo European speakers - unrelated to Arabs in every way, extant in Asia Minor since circa 2000 BC, and the Near East since 4th century BC.

11. Turks - Turkic speakers, unrelated to Arabs in every way, originally Mongoloids from Central Asia, arrived in 10th century AD

12. Turcomans - See Turks

13. Azeris - See Turks

14. Yazidis - Indo European speakers, Similar to Kurds

15. Shabakis - Indo European speakers, Similar to Kurds

16. Georgians - Kartvelian speakers, non Arabs

17. Iranians/Persians - Indo European speakers, extant for 3000 years, non-Arab

18. Qawilyah/Roma - Gypsies, originating in India, non Arabs

19. Samaritans - See Middle Eastern Jews

20. Mhallami - Pre Arab Semitic Muslims of Aramean stock

21. Circassians - speakers of a Nortwest Caucasian language, migrants to Mid East, not Arabs

22. Maltese - Of largely mixed North African, Mid Eastern and South European heritage — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.12.105 (talk) 05:07, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I saw this article referenced on AN/I, and came over to take a look. I tend to agree that use of "Arab American" to refer to Jewish persons of Mizrahi descent is factually incorrect, and indeed that is recognized in the lead paragraph. This does not seem to be a major aspect of the article but I've adjusted. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 00:17, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

We can discuss here if anyone is interested. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 17:41, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I am a Lebanese American that has had my DNA tested, I am mostly non-Arab Lebanese and north African. With that being said, today we are considered Arabs. The Arabic language derives from Phoenician and Aramaic. If you want to call yourselves whatever you want but you live in the Arab world, then all of the Lebanese people, Syrians, Palestinians, and Iraqis should walk around calling themselves Phoenicians/Canaanites, Babylonians, and so on. The Arab identity is simply a continuation of earlier ancient semitic cultures. If you feel excluded from that, fine. But do not walk around attempting to pass your identity as superior. We, the people known as Arabs today, derive from much older and prominent civilizations than the ones you mentioned. THANKS. LebaneseBebe (talk) 08:11, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Jews
Jews are a separate ethnic group with distinctive history, culture and identity. Therefore Judaism and Jews are unrelated to the topic. Please do not revert unless Wp:RS are provided. Infantom (talk) 01:56, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Here is the text you deleted:

"There are substantial numbers of American Jews originating from the Arab World, notably of Mizrahi Jewish extraction. Most migrated from their respective countries of origin to the United States during the late 20th century. The number of Arab Jewish-Americans is difficult to determine. Overlapping identification as Jewish Americans (along with other American Jews of various backgrounds) and Arab Americans (along with other American Arabs of various religious traditions) seldom occurs"
 * There are substantial numbers of American Jews originating from the Arab World, notably of Mizrahi Jewish extraction. Most migrated from their respective countries of origin to the United States during the late 20th century.
 * Many American Jews are, what is sometimes referred to as Jews from Arab Lands. For instance, there are 75,000 Syrian Jews in America and, according to a 1987 study cited in the book Sephardic Jews in America (page 196), there are 5,000 Yemeni Jews. It is also factually accurate that the numbers are difficult to determine.
 * The number of Arab Jewish-Americans is difficult to determine.
 * The same book says: "Estimating the Sephardi and Mizrahi population of the country today continues to challenge communal leaders and historians alike. No reliable statistics exist." (Page 35)
 * Overlapping identification as Jewish Americans (along with other American Jews of various backgrounds) and Arab Americans (along with other American Arabs of various religious traditions) seldom occurs
 * The same book says: "In later years, there are indications of overt self-identity as “Arab” or “Arabian” in Brooklyn’s Syrian Jewish community. One of the local clubs, founded in 1939, was named the Arabian Knights.213 During World War II, Syrian Jews identified strongly with aspects of Arabic culture that were not specifically “Jewish" ... These examples of confluence and self-ascription continue even as Jewish Arab identity has become increasingly untenable for political reasons.. In the words of Ella Shohat, the conflation of “Jew” with European origin, along with political conflicts in the Middle East, has made Arab Jewish identity tantamount to “an ontological subversion." Today, a burgeoning group of activists and writers in the United States, both gentile Arab and Jewish, are legitimizing through their various activities and publications the identity of Mizrahim as Arab Jews. As with Eastern Sephardim, the identity of Jews who trace their descent to Arab lands is complicated, varied, and often controversial.." (Page 183-184)
 * Given the number of American Jews with a family origin in Arab lands, it is reasonable to mention them in this article. It is also reasonable to say that "'Overlapping identification as Jewish Americans (along with other American Jews of various backgrounds) and Arab Americans (along with other American Arabs of various religious traditions) seldom occurs"GabrielF (talk) 02:20, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

 * The info about Mizrahi Jews is irrelevant, as they are not part of the Arab people. The are part of the Jewish ethnicity. Why mentioning them? Even if some individuals may identify themselves as Arabs, no reason for mentioning Judaism in infobox. Infantom (talk) 03:09, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Because American Mizrahi Jews represent a significant population and, while they may not often identify as Arab Americans, they can still trace their origin to the Arab world. I don't think an encyclopedia article on Arab Americans would be complete without at least mentioning that this population exists and describing how they self-identify.GabrielF (talk) 03:19, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

"not considered Arabs"
I've reverted the following:
 * "Being part of the Jewish ethnoreligious group, they are not considered Arabs."

I don't this claim as encyclopedic. Not considered by whom? Universally? Clearly some members of this community self-identify as Arabs. I don't think it's reasonable to categorically state that they are not. It is reasonable to say that the Jewish identity and the Arab identity do not often overlap, which is what the text currently says.GabrielF (talk) 03:26, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

The body of the article, as it is now written, contradicts the lead. The lead says unequivocally that Jews from Arabic-speaking countries are not Arabs, but the article later says that they are. You can't have it both ways. In any case, if we decide to write a paragraph about Jews from Arabic-speaking countries, we ought to include mention of other ethnic groups from those countries who do not identify as Arab - specifically those mentioned in the lead ("Assyrians (aka Chaldo-Assyrians) Berbers, Jews, Kurds, Turkmen, Azeris, Mandeans, Circassians, Shabaki, Armenians, Turks, Mhallami, Georgians, Yazidis, Balochs, Greeks, Iranians and Kawliya/Roma"). I am not an expert in this field, but my guess is that some of these groups have closer affinities (language, culture) to the Arabic world than the Jews. --Ravpapa (talk) 04:55, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is as much of a contradiction as you say. The lede says that Jews from Arab countries are not classified as Arabs. The body says that Jews from Arab countries do not often identify themselves as Arab.GabrielF (talk) 06:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * In other words, both the lead and the body say that Jews from Arab countries are not Arabs. Then why are they in the article?
 * Do Jews from Arabic-speaking countries living in America identify more or less with Arabs than Azeris or Berbers or Yazidis? Why have you chosen to include a paragraph about Jews and not about other ethnic groups?
 * I am asking not because I agree or disagree, I am just trying to understand the logic here. --Ravpapa (talk) 08:59, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * They are in the article because the question of identity is complex. As the source I quoted above says, historically many of them did identify as Arab but that identity became untenable in the last half century for political reasons. However, this is a population that spoke Arabic and was integrated in Arab society. Given the size of this population, I think it's at least worth mentioning that this group exists and providing a small amount of detail on their identity. I think we would be doing a disservice to readers if we completely excluded them without further consideration. I really can't speak to Berbers or Yazidis.GabrielF (talk) 12:29, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * GabrielF, coming from Arab countries or tracing origins from the Arab world does not imply an Arab identity. The only case here is rare occasions when "unknown numbers" (probably negligible) might self identified as Arab Jews. I don't see any valid reason to mention Jews, let alone more than other ethnicity in the same conditions. Jews by the vast majority are not considered Arabs and don't consider themselves as such, you seem to understand that, then why that obsession? My addition helps to understand why the "overlapping" of the identity is "seldom occurs", because of the simple fact that Jews, being from the Arab World or outside of it, are part of another ethnicity and share a distinctive identity. you don't seem to disagree with that either, so what is your point here? BTW, the source use the term "Sephardi and Mizrahi population" and not "Arab Jewish-Americans", please change it accordingly. Infantom (talk) 11:46, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

 * We all seem to be in agreement here about the facts: there are many Jews in America who come from Arabic-speaking countries, but neither do they identify themselves as a group as Arabs, nor do Arab Americans identify them as Arab. This notwithstanding the fact that some of these Jews continue to enjoy Arabic music and perhaps Arabic food and other aspects of culture from their countries of origin.
 * These facts suggest to me that this information has no place in the article. On the other hand, GabrielF has come up with some interesting information about Sephardic Jews in America which, even though irrelevant to this article, should probably find a place somewhere else in Wikipedia.
 * I would like to suggest the following solution: Write a new section in the article on Sephardi Jews called "Sephardi Jews in America". That is a place where this information is really relevant, and will get read with interest. Also, in the "See Also" section of this article, include a link to that material, as well as links to the articles on other ethnic groups from Arabic-speaking countries.
 * That is my suggestion. --Ravpapa (talk) 16:11, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Frankly, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the text that appears in the article right now (16:36, 17 April 2015 (UTC), for the record). In this particular context, especially, I could see a reader thinking, "What about Jews? There were plenty of Jews in Arab countries." And so in an encyclopedia, if Infantom's hypothesis is entirely correct (arguable, especially pre-1948, but I'm not quibbling now), the appropriate response would be to say something like "Though there is a substantial population of Jews with ancestry from Arab lands, neither they nor Arabs are likely to identify them as Arabs. See American Jews " (or whatever the reference should be). If you can't even support something like that in the article, it suggests to me a point of view that is not neutral. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:36, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

 * , I agree there is nothing wrong about including Jews in the article. It just seems irrelevant to point out that there are Jews from Arab countries but they are not Arabs; just as it would be strange to point out in an article on ethnic Russian Americans that there are some people in America of Korean origin who immigrated from Russia, but they are not Russians. The appropriate place for that information would, in my mind, be in an article on Korean people in America. And, in this case, it is especially so, since there are also Yazidis, Armenians, and others, who came from Arab countries but are not Arabs.

 * It would be possible, of course, to write an article about immigrants to America from Arabic-speaking countries, and then it would be appropriate to include Jews, as well as Christian Arabs, Muslim Arabs, Jews, Yazidis, Zoroastrians, and so on. But that is not the subject of the article. The article is about Americans who are ethnic Arabs, and that is why it seems to me that this paragraph is out of place here.

 * But, as I say, if the consensus is that it should remain in the article, I won't go to the barricades about it. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:04, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

 * StevenJ81, 1) if a reader thinks "What about Jews?", then s/he should visit Jews or American Jews and understand what about them. With that logic the reader could think about Assyrians and Copts as well, but from some reason that's a non issue. 2) I have tried to put it in better context (similar to your suggestion) mentioning that Jews are not considered Arabs, but GabrielF removed it although there is an agreement they aren't.

 * I support Ravpapa's solution. Perhaps a section at American Jews regarding Jewish immigrants from Arab speaking countries. Infantom (talk) 13:01, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

 * I agree with Infantom and Ravpapa. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 14:38, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I have been bold and edited the paragraphs to include other ethnic groups. --Ravpapa (talk) 18:01, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with your edit. I have removed Judaism from the infobox. Infantom (talk) 09:14, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

 * I'm ok with this, too, though I don't entirely prefer it. My point was mainly that at least in part, the definition of an ethnicity-American (of any type) is often defined geographically. So specifying who isn't included, especially when geography suggests they otherwise might be, is entirely reasonable (even appropriate). @Ravpapa's edit handles that appropriately and neutrally. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:21, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Respectfully, I don't believe User:Ravpapa's edit accurately reflects the source. The cited source does not state a population of 80,000. I believe Ravpapa is getting this figure by taking two estimates I made above (a Syrian-Jewish community of 75,000 and a Yemeni-Jewish community of 5,000) and combining them. However, these are only two countries in the Arab world. The actual number is likely not known precisely, but higher (the cited source gives a figure of 250,000-400,000 non-Ashkenazi Jews in America, but not a figure for Jews from Arab lands). I'm also not confident in the numbers for the Armenian American community. While the ACS gives a figure of about half a million, many Armenians came from countries that are not Arabic-speaking, such as Turkey, the Soviet Union and Iran. The article Armenian American gives a lot of details here, which suggests that a minority of Armenian Americans originated from Arabic-speaking countries.
 * I renew my objection to the binary classification of Jews from Arab lands as non-Arab (the section title is: "Non-Arab Americans from Arabic countries") As the source indicates, the majority do not consider themselves Arab American, but some do. Ethnic categories are social constructs, not physical realities, and identity can be complex and can shift.GabrielF (talk) 16:00, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Your objection is noted, I have edited the section accordingly. On the other hand, I think you may be misreading Uri's book. The fact that a group of Mizrahi Jews called their club "Arabian Nights" 75 years ago is not a very good indication of a current identification with Arabs as an ethnic group. And I am not sure that when she writes that Mizrahi writers and activists are forging a new "Arab Jewish" identity, it means that they necessarily identify themselves as ethnic Arabs. More likely to my understanding is that they are defining an identity that is distinctly Jewish, but distinguished from European Jewish.

 * In any case, I think what I wrote covers it. --Ravpapa (talk) 04:25, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

 * I believe that Ravpapa's edits are fair and correct. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 14:07, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Response to original post. That is simply not true. MANY early canaanites converted to Judaism, then later to Christianity, and some to Islam. Today we are called Arabs. LebaneseBebe (talk) 08:13, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

What about Palestinians?
I believe there is a not negligible number of Arabs of Palestinian origin, who migrated directly from Israel or via the surrounding Arab countries. I know there are large Palestinian populations in Detroit and in New Jersey. Many identify specifically as Palestinians.

Don't they deserve some mention? --Ravpapa (talk) 09:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Number of Arab Americans
Hello user:ArabAmazigh12, i don't understand your explanation, there's an official source of United States Census Bureau that supports a different number. This is also the case in the stats and the sources in the body of the article. You can't change it just because you think it's wrong, please do not do so unless you provide reliable sources that support your claim and counter the other one. Infantom (talk) 13:38, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The Arab American Insitute says otherwise even the wiki says it so your wrong dude United states census are talking about Arab speakers not the actual arab pouplation in the us so why dont you get your facts right?ArabAmazigh12 (talk) 06:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 08:07, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Intro last paragraph
There are problems with the last paragraph of the intro:

"A number of peoples from predominantly Arab countries resident in the United States are not classified as Arabs, including; Assyrians (aka Chaldo-Assyrians) Berbers, Jews, Kurds, Turkmen, Azeris,Mandeans, Copts, Circassians, Shabaki, Armenians, Turks, Mhallami, Georgians, Yazidis, Balochs, Greeks, Iranians and Kawliya/Romani."

The list of "peoples from predominantly Arab countries" includes Armenians, Turkmen, Azeris, Turks, Georgians, Greeks, Armenians, Iranians. Those nationalities are not from predominantly Arab countries. What is meant by that paragraph? I think we should remove those nationalities from the list or make it clearer what is meant by that statement. Rybkovich (talk) 05:55, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Redundant replication of notables list
Is there any policy or guideline rationale for duplicating a list article in this article? Given that there is already a comprehensive List of Arab Americans, I'll be moving any of the notables not already listed in the relevant list article from here, and only leaving the hatnote directing readers to the pertinent article. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:07, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

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External links modified
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Non Arab Americans from Arab Countries
This should not be listed above Arab American identity. The article is about Arab Americans, keep your politics aside. The second paragraph for the article should not be about non Arab Americans. I moved it below "Arab American identity" and politics, because it is political. And to move it to the other spot would simply be discriminatory towards Arabs, or people who have been Arabized/identify as Arabs. LebaneseBebe (talk) 08:15, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

No need for duplication
As there is a comprehensive list as List of Arab Americans, there is no need for so much duplication in an already long article Arab Americans. Once I have time, I will merge the two and keep it under List of Arab Americans only werldwayd (talk) 21:29, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Now I have accomplished the task of merging all names and all categories avoiding duplication. From now on update names only in List of Arab Americans werldwayd (talk) 00:03, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Arab Americans in California
About 3% of locals in Imperial County, California are of Arab descent, but many rather identify as Lebanese, Palestinian, Syrian and other. The Imperial Valley stretching into the Coachella Valley and Palo Verde Valley in the California desert attracted Arabian farmers a century ago (1910s-20s). I would say the largest Arab-American community though outside Detroit, Michigan is the Greater Los Angeles area of southern California: LA, Orange county, San Diego, Riverside-San Bernardino, Ventura, Santa Barbara and Bakersfield/Kern counties. 12.218.47.124 (talk) 20:34, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Outdated section on MENA
Looks like it isn't going to happen. Doug Weller  talk 15:02, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

"Arabs" from matrilineal line
Traditionally Arab culture reckons descent through the father only. I think this tradition is irrational and offensive, and it's slowly changing (now in Egypt and all of North Africa you are considered ethnically Arab through matrilineal descent, at least under the law), but it's still relevant to cultural perception. Therefore, should we be including as "Arabs" anyone with Arab descent on the matrilineal line, without reference to secondary sources referring to them explicitly as Arab? GergisBaki (talk) 16:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Are arab americans belong to white race?
According to this page there are onoy 4 mentions of white word, bar 1 for unrelated race term. We dont know that the arab american can classified as either white or asian person due to geographical proximity. 2404:8000:1027:2C72:8867:3732:13EF:C444 (talk) 11:34, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Only 4 mentions of arab
One of which isnt related to white race but white house. Can someone find the proof that arab american is categorized as white race? 103.195.58.114 (talk) 02:58, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Arab Americans


text:
Roose railway station

Roose is a railway station on the Furness Line, which runs between Barrow-in-Furness and Lancaster. The station, situated 1+3/4 mi east of Barrow-in-Furness, serves the suburb of Roose in Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria. It is owned by Network Rail and managed by Northern Trains.

Facilities
Facilities here are very basic. The station is unstaffed and there are no permanent buildings present, other than standard shelters. Travellers towards Lancaster and Manchester benefit from a ticket vending and collection machine, though travellers for Barrow and the Cumbrian Coast are urged to buy tickets in advance or from the Northern Railway App to avoid penalty fares. As of today train running information is provided by digital display, telephone and timetable posters. Step-free access to the platforms is available via a ramp on the south side from the nearby road bridge that also acts as the link between the two and directly from the adjacent road on the northbound side.

Services
Roose is served by Northern Trains, who operate a basic hourly service with some two hour gaps between Barrow-in-Furness and Lancaster. Certain trains are extended northwards to Workington and, and several southbound services are extended to Preston or Manchester Airport. A similar service operates on Sundays.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Roose railway station


text:
Oracle Media Objects

Oracle Media Objects, formerly Oracle Card, was a software development tool for developing multi-media applications, with functionality and appearance similar to Apple Inc.'s HyperCard.

The program originated as Plus, a 1989 clone of HyperCard published by Format Verlag that added several highly-requested features. Plus was purchased by Spinnaker Software, who ported it to Windows NT and OS/2 Presentation Manager, becoming the first cross-platform hypermedia solution. In 1994, Plus was purchased by ObjectPlus, who focussed on the Windows version, renaming it WinPlus. They also licensed the system to Oracle, who used it as the basis for Oracle Card.

First released in 1991, Oracle Card was essentially a redistribution of the Plus runtime engine along with external libraries for establishing connections to RDBMS engines such as Oracle and DB2. As such, Oracle Card stacks could execute queries and associate their results with native variables, making Oracle Card one of the first RDBMS application development environments to support cross-platform development.

The initial release was important as it was a stop gap measure to allow Oracle to provide some support for Microsoft Windows which was rapidly growing in popularity in business. At this time Oracle's core technologies for creating data entry systems (Oracle Forms and Oracle Reports) only ran in DOS and did not provide a GUI interface for Windows. Oracle Card helped to show that Oracle was supporting Windows until it could release its first Oracle Forms 4.0 with improved GUI support for Windows.

A few years later, Oracle acquired the original Plus source code from Format Verlag and developed it to become Oracle Media Objects or OMO. OMO lasted only briefly, with development ceasing after version 1.1.2. OMO was used by Oracle to position itself in the video on demand market. Commercially, there were very few products built using the tool. Amongst these were the "Our Secret Century" series of CD-ROMs published by The Voyager Company, Inside Independence Day by ACES Entertainment and UCAS University Course Search a CD-ROM by Learning Information Systems trading as StudyLink.

Unique Features of OMO
OMO had the unique distinction of not only its stacks being cross-platform, but also its external libraries (XCMDs). For that purpose, a small subset of the Mac OS memory management commands (Handles) were ported to other platforms. In addition, OMO sported a modular design where every type of object was actually implemented as a plugin file in an "Objects" folder.

OMO's object types included both the standard controls available in other HyperCard clones of the time (buttons, text fields, draw and paint graphics), as well as more complex controls like a spreadsheet field, and non-control items that could be placed on a card but were invisible at runtime, like timers that could be scheduled to send messages after a specified time.

Initial Competitive Impact
Oracle Card's primary value lay in the fact that, at the time, it was Oracle's only product to offer GUI support on Microsoft Windows. It was therefore sometimes included in sales pitches to potential clients by virtue of the fact that Windows was becoming increasingly popular on the desktop at large corporations. It showed customers that Oracle was serious about Windows and had a current product for that platform.

Oracle's primary application development tool, Oracle Forms 3, was character-based and did not run under Microsoft Windows (although it could run in a DOS window or natively on DOS without Windows). Oracle was desperately working on developing an upgrade (Oracle Forms 4) that had GUI features, but development was behind schedule. Oracle Card was primarily used as a "stop gap" demonstration product until Oracle Forms become available.

A handful of large clients, including the U.S. Postal Service, were known to have developed applications with Oracle Card for internal use. But Oracle Card had no broad, commercial success as a development platform, despite the fact that its feature set surpassed that of Apple's HyperCard in nearly every respect (platform support, database connectivity, vector graphics support, better color support, faster performance, and a richer plug-in architecture).

Eventually Oracle Forms 4.0 was released, meaning that support for Windows was no longer the exclusive domain of Oracle Card. Because Oracle's customers tended to be more interested in standard, forms-based database applications, rather than in the sorts of multimedia applications that were possible to create with Oracle Card and its successor, OMO, Oracle eventually threw its full weight behind Oracle Forms 4.0, casting Oracle Card/OMO into oblivion. However, the Oracle Card team was led by two Oracle employees who have gone on to form their own, successful, technology companies: Marc Benioff, founder of Salesforce.com, and Evan Goldberg, founder of NetSuite.

title: Oracle Media Objects


text: Category:Women's ice hockey

title: Category:Women's ice hockey


text:
Synoptics

Synoptics may refer to:

 * Synoptic Gospels, the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, but not John, with accounts of the life or teachings of Jesus
 * SynOptics, a Santa Clara, California-based early computer network equipment vendor from 1985 until 1994
 * Synoptic scale meteorology, a visualisation of meteorology (particularly forecasts) applicable to the geostrophic approximation

title: Synoptics