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Germanus (cousin of Justinian I)

Germanus (Γερμανός; died 550) was an Eastern Roman general, one of the leading commanders of Emperor Justinian I (r. 527–565). Germanus was Emperor Justinian's cousin, thus also a member of the ruling dynasty. He held commands in Thrace, North Africa, and the East against Persia, and was slated to command the final Byzantine expedition against the Ostrogoths. Having married into the Gothic Amal royal line through his second wife Matasuntha and a distinguished service record, at the time of his sudden death, he was considered the probable heir to Emperor Justinian.

Origins and early career
Germanus was born before 505, the nephew of Emperor Justin I (r. 518–527) and thus cousin of Emperor Justinian I (r. 527–565), and not his nephew, as is often erroneously stated. According to a statement in Jordanes's Getica, Germanus was a descendant of the noble Roman clan of the Anicii. The exact nature of his connection, however, if indeed it is anything more than a literary device to indicate noble descent, is unclear. Theodor Mommsen hypothesized that his mother could have been a daughter of Anicia Juliana. During the reign of Emperor Justin I, he was raised to high office (he is recorded as a vir illustris in a 519 letter addressed to him by Pope Hormisdas), eventually being appointed as magister militum per Thraciae. In this capacity, he scored a crushing victory over an invasion of the Antae.

By 536, he was raised to the honorary consulate and the rank of patricius, and held the post of magister militum praesentalis. In that year, he was sent to North Africa to succeed Solomon as military commander, with the task of suppressing a large-scale mutiny of the Byzantine troops led by Stotzas. His tenure there, described by Procopius, was a thorough success. By appearing conciliatory and paying the arrears, he won over a large part of the mutinous army. He then defeated the remaining rebels under Stotzas at the Battle of Scalas Veteres in the spring of 537 and stabilized the situation by suppressing another conspiracy amongst his troops (cf. Maximinus) and restoring discipline.

Germanus was recalled by Emperor Justinian in 539, and sent to Antioch in 540 at the outbreak of the Lazic War with Sassanid Persia. Heavily outnumbered by the Persians, he retreated to Cilicia and was unable to prevent the catastrophic sack of Antioch in the same year. In the next year, as Belisarius assumed command in the East, Germanus returned to Constantinople.

Conspiracy of Artabanes
By 548, he was acknowledged as the most influential of Emperor Justinian's relatives and his heir apparent, although this was never formally recognized. In that year, his position was strengthened further by the death of Empress Theodora, who disliked him intensely. His stature at court was such that a plot was hatched by the disaffected general Artabanes and his kinsman Arsaces to assassinate Emperor Justinian and replace him with Germanus. The conspirators thought Germanus amenable to their plans, since he had been dissatisfied with Emperor Justinian's meddling in the settling of the will of his recently deceased brother Boraides.

The conspirators first told Justin, Germanus's eldest son, of their intentions. He, in turn, informed his father, who then held counsel with the comes excubitorum, Marcellus. In order to find out more of their intentions, Germanus met the conspirators in person, while a trusted aide of Marcellus, named Leontius, was concealed nearby and listened in. Marcellus then informed Emperor Justinian, and the conspirators were arrested, but treated with remarkable leniency. At first, Germanus and his sons too were suspected, until the testimony of Marcellus and the commanders Constantianus and Bouzes cleared them.

High command and death
In the meantime, the Gothic War in Italy against the Ostrogoths had been going badly for the Byzantine Empire, with the Gothic king Totila having wrested most of the peninsula back from the Byzantine troops. In 549, Emperor Justinian decided to send a major expeditionary force to Italy with Germanus as its head. Soon, however, he changed his mind and appointed the patricius Liberius instead, before cancelling the expedition altogether.

In 550, however, Emperor Justinian did finally appoint Germanus as commander-in-chief of an Italian expedition. Installing his base at Serdica (modern Sofia, Bulgaria), he began assembling an army. According to Procopius, his fame was such that soldiers, both Byzantines and barbarians, flocked to his banner. Even a Slav invasion headed for Thessalonica allegedly diverted itself towards Dalmatia at the news of his taking up command in Thrace. Germanus also took a step that he hoped would significantly decrease the resistance he would face from the Ostrogoths: he took as his second wife Matasuntha, the former queen of the Goths, granddaughter of Theodoric the Great and last surviving heir of the royal Amal line. Contemporary accounts certainly suggest that this move, combined with news of the massive preparations, produced an effect among the Goths in Italy, as well as the numerous Byzantine defectors in their ranks, some of whom sent messages promising to return to Byzantine allegiance upon his arrival.

In addition, this marriage, which was endorsed by Emperor Justinian himself, marked Germanus out as the heir to both the East Roman and the Gothic realms. It was not to be, however: only two days before the army was to set out, in the early autumn of 550, he fell ill and died. His demise dashed any hopes for the reconciliation of Goth and Roman in Italy, and led to further years of bloodshed, until the peninsula was definitively conquered by the Byzantines.

Germanus is given a very favourable treatment in the work of Procopius, he openly praises him for his virtue, justice, and generosity, as well as for his energy and ability both as a soldier and an administrator.

Family
Germanus had a brother named Boraides and perhaps also a brother named Justus. From his first marriage to a woman named Passara, he had two sons and a daughter:

 * Justin, born probably in circa 525/530, became consul in 540 and general towards the end of Emperor Justinian's reign.
 * Justinian, general.
 * Justina, born in circa 527, who married in 545 the general John, nephew of the general and rebel Vitalian.

From his later marriage to Matasuntha, he had a son, also called Germanus, born posthumously (late 550/early 551). Nothing further is known of him with certainty, although he can possibly be identified with the patricius Germanus, a leading senator in the reign of Emperor Maurice (r. 582–602) whose daughter married Maurice's eldest son Theodosius. Michael Whitby identifies the younger Germanus with Germanus, a son-in-law of Tiberius II Constantine and Ino Anastasia.

title: Germanus (cousin of Justinian I)


text:
User talk:Bill Cannon

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Hyacinth 21:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * How to edit a page
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 * Your welcome for the welcome. Hyacinth 18:10, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Golden ratio
Hello. Please note that if you write irrational numbers then the whole phrase, not just the part in square brackets, appears as a clickable link to the article whose title is the singular irrational number. Generally singulars are preferred to plurals as article titles on Wikipedia (there are some obvious execptions), and accordingly irrational numbers (plural) is a redirect page to the singular title. I took care of this in the link you put into the first sentence in golden ratio. Michael Hardy 19:30, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * PS: The same applies to hypenated, dogmatic, Australian, etc. Michael Hardy 19:31, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Bill Cannon


text:
User talk:Soundguy99

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Hyacinth 21:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style
 * If you're ready for the complete list of Wikipedia documentation, there's also Topical index.

 * Sure, what's your question? Hyacinth 20:28, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Experimental edits to Introduction are not vandalism
The edit history portion of Introduction is not part of the template - please allow newbies to experiment by editing under the <--Comment>> without reverting unless they do something rude or use vulgarities. Thanks and welcome to wikipedia Trödel| talk 22:01, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No problem - poopie poop would have to be a judgement call ;) - I would have left it for some other person to delete - if you want to help monitor the Introduction page, sign up on the cleaning department task list - we need some help to make sure people don't delete the as it is what puts up the standard text. And the  comment helps them know where to edit. Have a good day! Trödel| talk  22:28, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Will do - have fun arround here!

Thanks
Thanks for taking the time to say 'thanks.' The good wishes and intent of others helps to move the collaboration forward. Cheers, -Willmcw 03:32, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

Talk page
Thank you so much for the kind note you left on my talk page. Staying calm in situations where tempers tend to flare is always difficult, and it has been particularly difficult for me on the NAMBLA article because of personal experience I won't go into here, but things always go better if you can control your tongue. This is a great place to learn and work and I've encountered some really fine people here. I hope you will stick around and decide to get involved yourself. Let me know if I can ever help you somehow. · Katefan0(scribble) 17:46, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

Links and redirects
Hello, and welcome. Yes, both the direct link and the redirect take the reader to the same article, but it is a little bit better to link directly when possible. More importantly here, many consider "Jesus Christ" to be a title which expresses a point of view. If you look at the talk pages for the article on Jesus, you'll find that, after some debate, this was generally agreed on as the more NPOV name. Jonathunder 16:28, 2005 Apr 17 (UTC)

Happy Editing
Welcome to Wikipedia! I see you have posed some very thoughtful questions at the Help desk. I'm not an administrator and I've only been here a few months, but I tried to answer your questions as best I could. If you need more help, please message me at my talk page. Happy Editing!! Johntex 23:54, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vanity
I always understood "vanity articles" to be articles written by the subject, usually meaning some kid sitting in a library writing about their dog and their website. Oh well. Adam Bishop 18:33, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Heh, "fanity", that's pretty good...I think people tend to use "fancruft" already though, or various other things with "cruft" as a suffix. Perhaps "bandcruft" would be appropriate here. Adam Bishop 18:43, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Talk:Teach the Controversy
I agree. I've been keeping away from it for while (I find that it helps when things have started going round and round in circles, with tempers rising). I have, though, removed the 'general complaint' template from the article — it seemed pointless given the PoV and VfD templates already there.

I got involved because of an RfC, and did get the page protected for a time, but as soon as it was unprotected they all piled in again. VorplaBlade I've only really seen at this article, but Ungtss is a long-time PoV pusher, with an RfC still outstanding (he wriggled out of it by saying that he wouldn't edit another cerationist-related page, but it didn't take long for him to return). I stuck up for him at that time, but his behaviour has worsened since, and I wouldn't do so again.

It probably couldn't hurt to have it protected again; I've requested it once (I'm much too involved to do it myself), so it would probably be better if someone else requested it this time, if you're willing. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 08:45, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bobber2
Yeah, I'm going to be keeping an eye on him. I'm not sure if he's clueless or a troll, but we'll see. RickK 19:25, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

I've blocked him for 24 hours for deleting a VfD header after I told him not to do it again. RickK 23:31, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

S.I.D.
I like what you said, and I think that the ramifications of a lot of that content can be discussed (some is obviously clear cut, some there are different ways of interpreting what it means in different contexts). We do plan to continue to contriubte to Wikipedia. Right now its just me and I'm busy, but I'm bringing in other people to learn the rules and do a good job. PS I like Margaritaville song (puke right) but not everyday! Best.Alex [[Sports Internet Destiation!}}

Bobber1
Looks like Bobber2's pal Bobber1 is making several Bobber2-like edits. See Rolf and Jonny and check their history.

I have a funny feeling Bobber1 and Bobber2 are the same person. In fact, I'm sure of it.—Quickbreak 21:10, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

VFD of Reagan Youth
That was a very nice rewrite you did on the abovementioned article. I changed my vote accordingly. Good job! Bratsche talk random 02:49, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

Bobber1 etc
Whew, this is a tough one. Most of the "official" remedies on Wikipedia involve vandalism of some sort. There aren't really any officially proscribed remedies for people who just make bad contributions. I feel like there is probably a segment of people who would say any contributions made in good faith (i.e. not vandalism) are potentially useful. Of course, seeing some of the quality of this particular user's edits, I can see how you would be frustrated having to come in behind him and fix them all the time. Given his main interests, I would agree that he's probably pretty young. It seems like you've made quite a few efforts to contact him about the quality of his contributions, so I'm not sure that asking for more voices saying the same thing would really help. What might help, though, is getting more eyes on his edits. Ultimately, I think, what it will probably come down to is just continuing to clean up after the guy, as crappy as that sounds. You could post an RfC on him just asking for more people helping to monitor his contributions. It would at least take some of that burden off of your shoulders. This isn't to say that you shouldn't continue to try to contact him. I would say each time you find yourself correcting something, it wouldn't hurt to leave a small note.

 * Also, in terms of not wanting to use RfC because that makes it more "official" somehow -- really, I wouldn't worry about that. RfC is the accepted way of getting more eyes on a person/article in a variety of circumstances, and is the accepted first step in getting it more serious attention.  I don't think that posting it on the Pump would hurt, really, but if I were you, I'd probably go to RfC myself.  I wish I could be more help!  This is a really frustrating one. · Katefan0(scribble) 20:37, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * Got your note on Bobber1/2 (is this anything like Dr Seuss' Thing 1 and Thing 2? But I digress...) From the look of things, it's a lost cause, and all we can do is be vigilant and keep copyrighted materials off of pagesn (and delete/revert bad edits when they pop up). I figured that if anything I should post to the talk pages of those "users" (and potentially any future variations on the nick) just so that everything can be documented. Thanks for the 'heads up.' --JohnDBuell 15:35, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

re: Help w/properly listing VfD == ==

You seem pretty knowledgeable about some procedural stuff. Cruising thru "Deadend" and found Anvil with the book which has a VfD tag & a VfD page but I can't find it on the daily VfD logs or master VfD list. Seems like the listing process got stalled somewhere along the way. I'm a little reluctant to attempt to list it myself just in case my slow connection + my large browser caching + temporary blindness means it's already there and I just missed it. Could you double-check this, please? Also, if the VfD listing process was incomplete, I would greatly appreciate a line or two on my talk page explaining what happened and how you fixed it so I can do it myself in the future. Thanks very much. Soundguy99 17:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

 * You can go to any page and click "what links here"... and in this case it isn't listed anywhere. I have added it to May 5 where it would have been anyway.
 * There are three steps involved in the nomination process, and if you miss the last one out it is "lost". It's still listed under the Vfd category, but very few actually check there.
 * So you just need to make sure those steps are done. Usually people do the first two, but sometimes even the second is missed out.
 * Anyway, hope that helps you! Master Thief Garrett 07:06, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Bobber1/2
Whee! More odd edits from the lovable Bobber1/2. Like most, if not all, of his edits, it's not excatly (typo on purpose) vandalism, but mostly useless. See Talk:Ed, Edd n Eddy. Nothing to do with EEnE, not even saying he's a fan, yet it's there. (And I guess I gotta stop posting stuff about Bobber here, so here's saying it'll be the last.)—Quickbreak 21:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Wahoo! Bobber's at it again, [|reinserting] WiKiLiNKS to character pages.  I removed them but kinda lost it in the summary box....  By the way, what other articles does he often, uh, "contribute" to?—Quickbreak 14:39, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

 * He reused Touchstone's Hitchhiker's movie promo materials again, this time on the movie's talk page. Did he think nobody would notice? Copyvio is copyvio, and I've removed everything that I had found in Touchstone's PDF file. --JohnDBuell 02:09, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Fender vs. Gibson
I think the page is about ready for release into Wikipedia, so if you could take a look and offer any criticism (or a good title), it'd be much appreciated. Thanks again for the PAF link. Deltabeignet 19:30, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

System VfD
The actual VfD was for Systm, which is currently listed correctly. Thanks for the heads up. I'll look over it and fix anything untoward now. -- Longhair | Talk 13:50, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the note on my talk... can you point me to 'how to add talk to my signature'? Your friend confessed he was lazy and hadn't done so, but if talk is the preferred venue in the culture, I may as well set a good example. It's taken me six months to 'commit', but I ought to do it right now that I'm heavily involved (Have seven books ordered into the Local Library for various artys as I write (That's usefully brief, N'est pas?).

You're right on the other "arty" useage, but in context, I'm perhaps tired of trying to bombard vanity artys by Juveniles. I'll give that some fair consideration. Thanks for the welcome. I'm about to post this to the Vfd discussion tabbed as indicated, so since it's in the cut buffer, you can have a preview. Is "WOT" in common use herein? That was as neutral as I was feeling after three plus hours of vanity piece after vanity piece on Vfd/Today. This is incredibly inefficient. Would be nice if there was at least a "Prev | Next" facility to step through the nominated article and a 'Vote' button so one could change that part of the thread with a complimentary Return to Flow which gave me the correct 'onto new business' place in the que. AOL talk pages had that feature a decade back, as some dedicated newsreaders do now. I guess if I stop 'Previewing' my thoughts, I can save two (four, six, ..., or more) Backspace keystrikes to get back where I started, but that's the experience. Any suggestions? I'm already using multiple windows, but that's confusing at times too.

Thanks again, Frank

Here's the preview... thoughts?

Re: debate on speedy delete subcat Using other processes first. You opined humourously: "Oh, horrors. The poor servers, how will they... ", etc. The problem is not to THOSE servers, but to US Servers (or Servants)... but you knew that already. These vanity pieces are a huge WOT (Waste of Time). So far as I have discerned in lurking around Vfd the past five days, they are usually of juvenile origination... keeping them around more than the bare mininum is rewarding these inconsiderate (I'm tempting to say parasites ) youngsters by giving them how many ever days to nudge their friends and point out how They put one over on the serious devotees in the Wiki-community. My own view is these things need extremely fast and effective deletion as soon as monitors spot them occuring.

I wrote this sugestion in an UserTalk: Why the heck are the vanity pages tolerated for inclusion into the general Vfd que? If the behind the scenes 'monitors' would immediately tag such as nonsense. Save, then go through the Vfd tagging process themselves, or perhaps allow the the Next (another agreeing) monitor to tag it (as a check and balance kind of thing) A concurring admisistrator can then Speedy-Delete it within the current guidlines. (Lawyering, I know, but within current guidelines, unless I've missed something.) It would be nice to see this tried for a few days or weeks at least just to see if the impact on Vfd\Today goes as I predict. The current process lets these self-masturbatory puff pieces hang around for five days as 'A kind of further reward' (Psycologically) for the juvenile thrill at the minor personal cost of posting the piece. Five days for them to elbow their friends and say: (wink, wink) look what I got away with! If they instead vanished inside a half-hour, it would certainly speed the processing on the Vfd/Today page to a more managable number of far more important votes. It would also hold their satisfaction down considerably, assuming they like writing as much as MOST TEENS. Which is to say, Not! (Like my two boys) The vanished 'joke on Wikipedia will bite them with a joke on them and disuade copy cats in their circle of friends at least, and the word will get around the web as well in general - even if the lesson is relearned locally by many different people. My time is valuable. How about yours? Fabartus 17:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
Nice to be appreciated, I think I'll start doing the same thing when I see someone's done something useful ... spread the love etc :) Proto 09:34, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

RFC archiving?
Oops, sorry about that. I didn't realize they were relative links. Thanks for fixing! Radiant_ >|< 18:01, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

reducing vfd load
Hi soundguy,

you might be interested in a proposal I wrote at User:MarSch/deleteproposal. Please take a look. Thanks --MarSch 16:02, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reducing VfD load
Well, it's not closed per se, but has become somewhat inactive. But, as a result, there is now a policy proposal at Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Proposal, which will be up for voting soon. I wanted to add that but you got ahead of me :) Yours, Radiant_ >|< 17:18, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Curious
How'd it go with Mr. Ed, Edd and Eddy? · Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:58 (UTC)

Please update your webbrowser
You are using a non-Unicode webbrowser, which destroys all non-ASCII characters - is it IE for Mac? Please change to a Unicode-compatible browser like Mozilla Firefox. andy 5 July 2005 16:35 (UTC)

 * Since the MediaWiki 1.5 update the english wikipedia has been converted to UTF8, thus now non-Latin1 characters can show up. I thought that there was something to block editing with non-UTF8-browsers, but apparently that's not active (yet). andy 5 July 2005 20:00 (UTC)

Please check your browser settings
Your change to the Community Portal destroyed a lot of interwiki links to versions in other languages. I assume that you didn’t intednd to do that. What browser are you using? Or did you paste the text into an editor to make the changes? Susvolans (pigs can fly) 5 July 2005 16:37 (UTC)
 * Try Village pump (technical). You will probably need to adjust your browser settings. You are a bit right about MediaWiki 1.5; it is less tolerant about certain browser configurations, but that is a feature, not a bug. Susvolans (pigs can fly) 5 July 2005 17:19 (UTC)

Hello
Hey! I'm a sound guy, too. Just thought I'd say hello. :) kmccoy (talk) 17:53, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Article rescue contest
I'm writing to tell you the contest has begun and will take 3 weeks. Since you've shown interest, I thought you'd like to know. - Mgm|(talk) 16:04, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

SoundGuy99, i figured you'd be interested in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Michael_Everson_%282nd_Nomination%29 --69.76.168.158 21:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

SCOUT eh!
When this article was nominated for AfD in 2005 you were involved in the discussion. It has now been nominated again. This is a notification in case you are still interested in taking part in the debate. Regards, DiverScout (talk) 09:33, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:59, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Slanguage (artist collective)

The article Slanguage (artist collective) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern: "Does not meet notability guidelines/not demonstrated in 7+ years. References are commercial in nature."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. It'sOnlyMakeBelieve (talk) 05:37, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

title: User talk:Soundguy99


text:
User talk:Ariggs

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Hyacinth 21:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * How to edit a page
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title: User talk:Ariggs


text:
User talk:Hilby

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Hyacinth 21:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style
 * If you're ready for the complete list of Wikipedia documentation, there's also Topical index.

title: User talk:Hilby


text:
User talk:Jsteenhagen

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Hyacinth 21:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style
 * If you're ready for the complete list of Wikipedia documentation, there's also Topical index.

title: User talk:Jsteenhagen


text:
Englund Gambit

The Englund Gambit is a rarely played chess opening that starts with the moves:
 * 1. d4 e5

Black's idea is to avoid the traditional queen's pawn games and create an  with tactical chances, but at the cost of a pawn. The gambit is considered weak; Boris Avrukh writes that 1...e5 "seems to me the worst possible reply to White's first move". It is almost never seen in top-level play, although Paul Keres once tried it. The gambit is occasionally seen in amateur games and in correspondence chess, and the 3...Qe7 version of the gambit was frequently used by Henri Grob.

Black has numerous ways to continue after 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5. Black can offer to exchange the d-pawn for White's e-pawn with 2...d6, arguing that after White captures with exd6, ...Bxd6 will offer Black a lead in to compensate for the pawn. After the continuation 2...Nc6 3.Nf3, Black may round up the e5-pawn with 3...Qe7, intending to meet 4.Bf4 with the disruptive 4...Qb4+, and ensuring that White's only way to maintain the extra pawn is to expose the queen with 4.Qd5, but in subsequent play the queen can prove to be awkwardly placed on e7. 3...Nge7 intending 4...Ng6 is another way to round up the e5-pawn, but requires two tempi, while Black can also offer to exchange the f-pawn with 3...f6, or 3...Bc5 intending a subsequent ...f6, with similar play to the Blackmar–Diemer Gambit except that Black has one tempo less.

The gambit can be considered an inferior relative of the Budapest Gambit and Albin Countergambit, as by comparison with those gambits, White has not weakened the b4-square with c2–c4, and may be able to put that tempo to better use in order to avoid giving away any key squares. Accordingly, with careful play White should be able to obtain a greater advantage against the Englund than against the Budapest and Albin, against all approaches by Black. However, since the Budapest and Albin rely upon White continuing with 2.c4, and can thus be avoided by continuations such as 2.Nf3 (when 2...e5 can be met by 3.Nxe5 in either case), it is easier for exponents of the Englund Gambit to get their opening on the board and avoid getting into a typical queen's pawn type of game.

History
1.d4 e5 is also known as the Charlick Gambit after Henry Charlick (1845–1916), the second Australian chess champion, who introduced the 2...d6 line in the early 1890s. The main line Englund Gambit (2...Nc6, 3...Qe7) was introduced by Kārlis Bētiņš (1867–1943), who also established the Latvian Gambit. The Swedish player Fritz Englund (1871–1933) sponsored a thematic tournament from late 1932 to early 1933 in which all games had to begin with the position after 4.Qd5; the 1.d4 e5 gambit complex was later named after him.

Main line
Most common today is 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Qe7 4.Bf4 Qb4+ 5.Bd2 Qxb2 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Rb1 Qa3. White can try to keep the extra pawn with 4.Qd5, the Stockholm Variation. Black can try a queenside fianchetto with 4...b6, or attempt to regain the pawn with 4...h6, but neither of those lines provide enough compensation for the pawn. Thus, Black usually challenges the e5-pawn immediately with 4...f6, when play continues 5.exf6 Nxf6 6.Qb3. Black does not get enough compensation with the delayed queenside fianchetto 6...b6, so the main line continues 6...d5. After 6...d5, 7.Nc3 Bd7!, threatening 8...Na5, leading to complications and good play for Black (e.g. 8.Bg5 Na5 or 8.Qxb7 Rb8 9.Qxc7 Qc5). After the stronger responses 7.Bf4 and 7.Bg5 (intending 7...Bd7 8.e3), however, while Black retains some compensation for the pawn, White keeps an edge.

Instead, White often allows Black to regain the pawn at the cost of lagging development. The main line runs 4.Bf4 Qb4+ 5.Bd2 (5.Nc3!? is perfectly playable, as 5...Qxf4 is well met by 6.Nd5!, while 5...Qxb2 6.Bd2 transposes to the main line) 5...Qxb2 6.Nc3! White must avoid the notorious trap 6.Bc3 Bb4!, which wins for Black after 7.Bxb4 Nxb4 or 7.Qd2 Bxc3 8.Qxc3 Qc1#.

After 6.Nc3, 6...Nb4? is refuted by 7.Nd4 c6 8.a4. The main line instead continues 6...Bb4 7.Rb1 Qa3 8.Rb3 Qa5 9.e4 Nge7 or 9.a3 Bxc3 10.Bxc3 Qc5, when White has some advantage due to the lead in development, but Black is not without chances due to the loose white pieces and shattered white pawn structure. However, in 2006 Bücker pointed out that 8.Nd5!, previously analysed by Grob as leading only to an unclear position, has been improved for White, and Black has yet to find a good response. Avrukh also considers this very strong, analyzing 8...Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 Qxa2 10.Rd1 Kd8 11.Ng5 Nh6 12.e6! d6 (12...Qa5? 13.e7+! Ke8 14.Qxa5 Nxa5 15.Nxc7+ wins) 13.exf7 Rf8 14.Nxc7 Kxc7 15.Qxd6+ Kb6 16.Ne4! Qxc2 (or 16...Bf5 17.Nc3 Qxc2 18.Nd5+) 17.Nd2 Rxf7 18.Rb1+ Qxb1+ 19.Nxb1 with "a decisive advantage". Stefan Bücker offers 13...Qa5 for Black but concludes that White is clearly better after 14.c3 Rf8 15.Nxh7 Rxf7 16.Ng5 Rf8 17.g3 Ne5 18.Bg2 Nhf7 19.Nxf7+ Rxf7 20.Qd4. Avrukh also considers 8...Ba5 9.Rb5 Bxd2+ (9...a6? 10.Rxa5 Nxa5 11.Nxc7+) 10.Qxd2 Kd8 11.Ng5 (the traditional reply 11.e4 may allow Black a playable game after 11...a6!? according to Bücker ) 11...Nh6 12.f4!? a6 13.Rb3 Qxa2 14.Nc3 Qa1+ 15.Rb1 Qa5 16.e3 when Black is "close to losing", for example 16...Re8 17.Bc4 Nxe5 18.fxe5 Qxe5 19.Bxf7! Qxg5 20.Bxe8 Kxe8 21.Nd5 Qe5 22.0-0 and "White wins." Bücker also considers 9.e4!? to be a strong alternative to 9.Rb5, leading to a clear advantage for White. Black therefore sometimes tries 4...d6 instead, continuing 5.exd6 Qf6 6.Qc1 (or 6.e3, returning the pawn).

White's other major try for advantage is 4.Nc3 Nxe5 5.e4, securing a lead in development and leaving Black's queen awkwardly placed on e7. Stefan Bücker recommends 5...Nf6 6.Bg5 c6 7.Nxe5 Qxe5 8.f4 Qe6, with a playable game but some advantage for White. Viktor Korchnoi won a in a 1978 simultaneous exhibition with 4.Nc3 Nxe5 5.Nd5 Nxf3+ 6.gxf3 Qd8 7.Qd4 d6 8.Bg5!, but according to Bücker Black gets a playable game with 8...f6 9.Bd2 c6 10.Nf4 Qb6.

Blackburne–Hartlaub Gambit
The Blackburne–Hartlaub Gambit, 2...d6, was Charlick's original idea to avoid the closed openings, aiming for compensation for a pawn after 3.exd6 Bxd6. A sample continuation is 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4, when White remains a pawn up with some advantage. White can also delay the immediate 3.exd6, playing 3.Nf3 first, when after 3...Bg4, 4.e4 Nd7 transposes into a gambit line of the Philidor Defence played by Blackburne. Black gets partial compensation for the pawn after 5.exd6 Bxd6 6.Be2 Ngf6 7.Nc3 Qe7. White obtains a large advantage, however, after 2...d6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Bg5 Qd7 5.exd6 Bxd6 6.Nbd2.

Soller Gambit
The Soller Gambit, 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 f6, was named after Karl Soller. The immediate 2...f6 is sometimes seen as well, when 3.Nf3 Nc6 transposes, but 3.e4! Nc6 4.Bc4 gives White a large advantage. In the Soller Gambit proper, International Master Gary Lane recommends 4.exf6 Nxf6 5.Bg5. In this line Black gets partial compensation via 5...h6!, e.g. 6.Bh4 Bc5 (or 6...g5 at once) 7.e3 g5 or 6.Bxf6 Qxf6 7.c3 Bc5, although White keeps some advantage. White can also return the pawn via 4.e4, securing the better chances. Then after 4...fxe5 5.Bc4, 5...Nf6 6.Ng5! leads to complications that are very good for White, but 5...d6 may be an improvement.

Detailed analysis of the Soller Gambit in print has been restricted to two German language works by FM Stefan Bücker from the 1980s and 1990s. In recent years, however, International Master Kamran Shirazi has played the gambit on over 1,400 occasions in blitz and bullet games at Lichess. Shirazi has diverged from Bücker's work by favouring 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.exf6 Nxf6 5.Bg5 d5!? and well as 5.Nc3 d5!? and 5.e3 d5!?. In each case this results in play where Black is effectively adopting the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit a move down. Bücker had advocated 5.Bg5 h6 and 5.Nc3 Bc5, generally preferred variations with ...d6, and considered 5...d5 lines to be dubious. However, Shirazi's games suggest that 5...d5 variations are playable in high level blitz chess.

Felbecker Gambit
The Felbecker Gambit, 3...Bc5, usually followed by ...f6, is a variant on the Soller Gambit approach, when again Black may get partial compensation in such lines as 4.Nc3 f6 5.exf6 Nxf6 6.Bg5 d6 7.e3 h6, but 4.e4 is also critical, when Black's best is 4...Qe7 as 4...f6 5.Bc4! gives White a large advantage.

Zilbermints Gambit
The Zilbermints Gambit, 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 Nge7, was named after the American chess player Lev D. Zilbermints who had extensive analysis published on the line in Blackmar Diemer Gambit World issues 61–63. German FIDE Master Stefan Bücker provided further analysis in Kaissiber 5 and 6. The idea is to play ...Ng6 and win the pawn back.

Gary Lane recommends the response 4.Bf4. After 4...Ng6 5.Bg3, Zilbermints recommends either 5...Bc5 or 5...Qe7 6.Nc3 Qb4, when White's main responses are 7.Rb1, 7.Qd2 and 7.a3. After 7.Rb1, a possible continuation is 7...Qa5 8.Qd5 Bb4 9.Qxa5 Bxa5 10.e3 0-0 11.Bd3 Re8 12.Bxg6 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 fxg6, when Black's superior pawn structure compensates for the lost pawn, while both 7.Qd2 and 7.a3 lead to considerable complications. An alternative for White is 5.e3, but Black may get some compensation for the pawn after 5...d6. If 4.Bg5, then Black obtains a good game via 4...h6 5.Bh4 g5 6.Bg3 Nf5.

Thus 4.Nc3 is the most critical response, when 4...Ng6 is ineffective in view of 5.Bg5! Be7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.Nd5, so Black may need to fall back upon 4...h6.

Alternatives for White
White can decline the Englund Gambit in a number of ways, although doing so would be inaccurate. 2.d5 is sometimes seen, but leaves Black with a good game after 2...Bc5, while 2.e3 can be met by 2...exd4 3.exd4 d5 transposing to the Exchange Variation of the French Defence, and in addition Black can avoid 3...d5 and simply develop with a good game. 2...Nc6 and 2...e4 may also be playable. After 2.Nf3, Black gets a good game with 2...exd4 3.Nxd4 d5, preparing ...c5, and 2...e4 3.Ne5 d6 4.Nc4 d5 is also good for Black. also after 2...d6, 3.e4 offers black to regain the pawn the endgame will be more comfortable for white.

After 2.dxe5 Nc6, instead of 3.Nf3, White can also defend the e5-pawn with 3.Bf4, when Bücker suggests either 3...g5 followed by 4...Bg7, or 3...f6 hoping to get an improved version of the Soller Gambit. 3.f4 is sometimes seen, but Black has reasonable chances after 3...f6 or 3...d6. White can also transpose to a line of the Nimzowitsch Defence with 3.e4.

title: Englund Gambit


text:
Talk:Silver Spring, Maryland

Question
If the population is roughly 71,000, the black population is 20-something percent, and SS is "home to 40,000 Ethiopians," how do those numbers compute? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:155:8301:1F0:AD39:12A2:32DD:7FCD (talk) 19:17, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

How to summit a ideal ? Charliedfa (talk) 21:35, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

"Third-largest community?"
"When the entire portion of Montgomery County, Maryland using Silver Spring addresses is taken into account, the population can swell to over 250,000 people, comparable to mid-sized American cities such as Buffalo, New York and St. Paul, Minnesota. In the Washington-Baltimore region, Silver Spring is the third-largest community, behind the cities of Baltimore, Maryland and Washington, D.C., and ahead of Arlington, Virginia and Alexandria, Virginia."

This is kind of an odd statement. If by "community" you mean CDP, than there are quite a few larger CDPs in the CSMA (starting with Columbia, of all places.) If it means "postal designation," then the Alexandria PD is certainly larger than Silver Spring, as it includes most of southern Fairfax County (22 zips, total.) Why the "larger-than-thou" factoid? --Browncat 05:53, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

---

Alexandria has a set and rigid boundary and thus has a set population that is easily accounted for. Same for Washington DC and Baltimore. It would be "cheating" to include addresses outside of Alexandria proper in this count especially because that would require counting people in an entirely different municipality (Fairfax County in this case). I've never heard of anyone who claimed to live in Alexandria, but actually lived in Fairfax County.

 * This is not true. I live well into Fairfax County and have an Alexandria mailing address and zip code. And I am not the farthest out to say the least. —Xanderer 13:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I Don't know if it's still true, but the post office in downtown Wheaton was considered to be a Silver Spring branch.

All in all this means that if Silver Spring were incorporated to include all the people who claim to have Silver Spring addresses, it would be the third largest city behind Baltimore and Washington, DC. In fact, there's no need to even include all of those people to become the third largest city in the DC/Baltimore metro area since it would only require 130,000 of the almost 250,000 who have Silver Spring addresses (it would require 187,000 to beat out Arlington, which is a county, not a city). As it is now, Silver Spring is the largest community outside of DC and Baltimore.

 * First of all, I know plenty of people--starting with my sister and her husband's family--who are residents of Alexandria, Fairfax but refer to themselves as Alexandrians. Local newscasters refer to the "Alexandria part of Fairfax." There was even a John Kelly column about "The Alexandrification of Northern Virginia" a few days ago. I mean: "community" is a pretty ambiguous term, isn't it? So I think it's just as legitimate to include Hybla Valley or Belle View or Lincolnia in a definition of the Alexandria "community" as it is to include Wheaton in the Silver Spring "community."

 * I sense you're trying to say something about how large Silver Spring is for an entirely-unincorporated place. That is, after all, what makes SS unique. But "community" is not an official designation, and your claim, as written, is also true of Alexandria, Arlington, Rockville, Fairfax, and probably a few other places. (And yes, I'm only picking at the claim because the article specifically mentions Arlington and Alexandria.) --Browncat 07:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Transportation
A "transportation" section is due for Silver Spring. I personally know Silver Spring because of its easy access to the redline of the Washington metro.

The transportation section as currently written would lead a reader to think that all of Silver Spring was transit-oriented development (it's not), with the emphasis on Metrorail and the un-built Purple Line. I have attempted to remedy that by adding references to the InterCounty Connector. Cpzilliacus (talk) 03:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

---

Goldie Hawn
A native/resident of Silver Spring? As I recall she actually grew up in Takoma Park. --Spyneyes 03:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I also recall that she grew up in Takoma Park. Although she did go to Montgomery Blair Highschool.  Remove?  Move to the Takoma Park page? There is not yet a famous resident list for Takoma Park squirrelist 20:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I propose this list be "firmed up" with citations. I'm nearly certain Goldie Hawn is from Takoma Park, and several others on this list are dubious as well. (Sylvester Stallone anyone?) — xanderer  21:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, Goldie Hawn did in fact grow up in Takoma Park, somewhere in the neighborhood just north of Jequie Park, south of Takoma Park Middle School, and, if I remember correctly, somewhere near Buffalo St./Rd./Pl./something... Fireheat624 (talk) 00:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

 * This Washington Post article from 2005 referencing resident Donna Wulkan, MD SDAT public records, and The Silver Bee make a good case Goldie Hawn lived at 9 Cleveland Ave, Takoma Park.—BoboLink81 (talk) 17:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Notable residents section of article
If the list continues to grow (for example, I think Jack Abramoff should be added), it will overshadow the rest of the article. Then it should go somewhere else - I've seen separate articles titled "List of ....", for example. (The other option would be to create a category.)  John Broughton 12:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Local school's article ("Thornton Friends School") nominated for deletion
FYI, the article, Thornton Friends School, has been nominated for deletion due to possible lack of notability; see Articles for deletion/Thornton Friends School for the discussion. As an alternative to full deletion or retention, it's been suggested that the article might be somehow merged into this article or some other local article. --A. B. 20:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Silver Spring's Turf
This article should mentioned the area in downtown Silver Spring that was covered with artificial grass. It had became a popular gathering place and was the location of some outdoor events. It was decided to remove the turf and build a skating rink in it's place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.164.202.130 (talk • contribs)
 * Unfortunately, I wish it were considered notable, despite the sheer number of people who didn't seem to care when it got removed. It might actually become more notable once we have sources for the plaza replacement, which we won't until or unless the disastrous nature of the new 1970s-style plaza becomes more apparent. I.e. we need a source comparing the new plaza to the astroturf. Has anyone written about the subject? Yclept:Berr (talk) 02:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Crime section
There should be a section on crime, as a new resident here I am shocked at the number of stabbings and shootings. One of each happened in front of my place this week (within a 100 yards of my front door). I'll do a bit of research and put in some stats if no one objects. 209.190.248.102 07:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, if you can find some numbers, that'd be great. My only concern is that given the personal experience you've had, there might be some conflict of interest in you writing the section, so just watch out for that. Thanks for your contributions! – DroEsperanto(talk 19:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

 * it's a problem that has been going on for a long time (it occurs in all of the suburbs of DC, and not just silver spring), and as usual it won't make the news unless there is a story behind it (hence why you usually don't hear anything about the 12-24 stabbings every night in DC). the good thing about silver spring is that the police have at least taken care of most of the crime that was happening before the mid-2000s. my point is good luck getting any crime sections in this wikipedia because i think they are more willing to spin the facts to put silver spring in a positive light than show all known facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.93.71 (talk) 18:00, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Silver Spring online news sites
Question for the group: Is The Silver Spring Penguin suitable for inclusion in the external links section per WP:EL? Silverspring and I have had some back and forth about this, and it's a bit of a stalemate. I contend it's a blog (i.e. it goes off), while they contend it's a legitimate online news site. Thoughts? SchuminWeb (Talk) 23:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with user Silverspring that the Silver Spring Scene, Silver Spring Penguin, and Just Up The Pike etc are news sources. I'm not sure how you define "legitimate" but what you probably consider "official" news sources like the Washington Post and Gazette have time after time taken original reportings from these sites and made articles out them. These aren't personal blogs but sites that report very mircolevel news about Silver Spring. Question for you, even if these "blogs" "go off" are you willing to discredit the Gazette and Washington Post since they contain bias opinionated articles and editorials? What makes these sites "illegitimate" if they write exclusive news content that the big boys copy? 69.251.249.6 (talk) 06:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

RFC for Silver Spring Online News
Does The Silver Spring Penguin go against WP:EL as a blog, or is it a legitimate news site? 23:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes. As so do the others, they are what is a newly formed market of microlevel news sources. Please explain your stance, I have above. 69.251.249.6 (talk)

 * No, it seems to be a valid local journalism site that is merely published electronically rather than requiring the traditional (and highly capital-intensive) printing press and paper-based distribution of news. Seems to be a pretty solid example of the recent phenomenon of citizen journalism. N2e (talk) 16:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

History of Silver Spring with no mention of the Beltway?
The Capital Beltway is (IMO) the "main street" of the region and of Silver Spring, yet no mention of it (until now) in the history section. Cpzilliacus (talk) 03:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Silver Spring Economy Section section blanking by User:98.248.32.178
Please state logical and valid reasons for your continuous section blanking of the Silver Spring Economy Section. The section is a work in progress and will be added to overtime, you have no valid reason for removing it. All the information is factual, it even has a description and no dead links as you were refering to. Please refer me to the Wikipedia section that states a place article page cannot start off with the an area economy after the intro if at all possible. Again state a valid reason for your section blanking.

Waveshi (talk) 01:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * While I'm not that IP, I did revert your previous edits. I did that because they clearly were promoting a non-neutral point of view, and were not very informative: they served more to say "Silver Spring is super-great and terrific" (pardon the exaggeration) than to give any substantive facts. The use of a list of large companies to substantiate your unreferenced claims about the strength of Silver Spring's economy constitutes original research, which is not allowed under Wikipedia policies.

 * That being said, I don't disagree with the concept of having an economy section. If you find some sources that support what you were writing, and if you can write it in a fairly NPOV way (it doesn't have to be perfect, of course), then by all means go ahead and add it. If you'd like to work on it in stages, consider using a subpage such as at Talk:Silver Spring/Economy workpage. Make sure you mark at the top. Anyway, that's my two cents on the issue. If you feel differently, let's discuss it. – DroEsperanto(t / c) 02:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Indeed, the concept of a section on the economy of Silver Spring is a good one. As long as it is neutrally written and referenced out the wazoo, of course.  However, both Waveshi and 98.248.32.178 violated WP:3RR in the course of their edit war, and both have been given 24-hour blocks to prevent further disruption.  Hopefully, while blocked, both will take the opportunity to step back and realize just what they were doing that led to the block, consider the suggestions given on this talk page, and return tomorrow to edit harmoniously.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 02:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I agree with DroEsperanto and SchuminWeb - an economy section is a good idea, but the specific one which was being warred over wasn't really up to snuff. Some ideas: include specific numbers (XXX dollars sales, XXX square feet office space, XXX employees, etc), shy away from specific companies/agencies (just because it is a real pain trying to figure out who to list and who not, and a laundry list doesn't really enlighten the reader anyway), try to find some reports from economic development agencies (or whoever publishes relevant stuff). Kingdon (talk) 19:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Exactly! SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Neighborhoods
The following text w/ some corrections was proposed for a section towards the end of the article and got removed:

Neighborhoods (section) (or, a list page: Silver Spring, Maryland Neighborhoods)

 * Downtown Silver Spring: (Georgia Avenue/Route 29, bordered by Spring Street) A major central business district, with a mixed-use commercial center and headquarters of several national organizations.
 * East Silver Spring: (Sligo / Wayne Avenues, Piney Branch Road and the Flower Theater district) A mixed-income, older area of houses and apartments, with its own small commercial area centered on Piney Branch Road.
 * Fenton District: (Old Silver Spring, north of the B&O railroad tracks) A main street commercial district built at the turn of the 20th century, home to restaurants, small shops, and service-oriented retail.
 * Forest Glen, Maryland: (Georgia Avenue south of Wheaton) A primarily residential subdivision, home of Holy Cross Hospital and adjacent to Kensington, Maryland.
 * Four Corners, Maryland: (between Sligo and Northwest Branch at University/Route 29) A self-contained suburban neighborhood with its own commercial center and Montgomery Blair High School.
 * Hillandale, Maryland and Burnt Mills: (New Hampshire and Plyers Mill Road, north of the Beltway) A suburban subdivision south of the FDA campus, relatively affluent and multiethnic.
 * Kemp Mill, Maryland: (University and Kemp Mill Road, north of Four Corners) A predominantly orthodox Jewish community east of Wheaton Regional Park.
 * Long Branch / Indian Spring: (Between the Creeks, south of the Beltway) A mixed-income subdivision of small suburban homes and apartments, centered on Flower Avenue.
 * North Takoma: (unincorporated area of Takoma Park south of Sligo Avenue) Home of Montgomery College Takoma Park-Silver Spring campus.
 * Oakview: (New Hampshire Avenue south of the Beltway) An isolated subdivision of Adelphi, Maryland separated by Northwest Branch and the county line.
 * Rolling Terrace / Clifton Park (University Boulevard east of Long Branch Park) A primarily immigrant community adjacent to Langley Park, Maryland, part of the "International Corridor".
 * South Silver Spring (between the Metro / B&O railroad tracks and the D.C. line) A "gateway" commercial district of small shops and high-rise apartment buildings.
 * West Silver Spring (Grubb Road / Seminary) A community of postwar garden apartments, Capital Crescent Trail and the industrial Walter Reed Annex.
 * White Oak, Maryland (New Hampshire/Route 29 between Northwest Branch and Paint Branch) A suburban interchange with large apartment complexes, shopping center, and the FDA campus.
 * Woodside (north of Downtown Silver Spring, south of the Beltway) Historically a predominantly jewish community, now an affluent neighborhood of large older homes.

Justification
Silver Spring is a community of discrete neighborhoods, and some are even separate planning districts. These neighborhoods are of sufficient local interest to be worthy of note in an article about Silver Spring, but do not need their own pages. Only a few of these neighborhoods have their own pages: the ones that are not in the Silver Spring CDP. Those outlying places have their own pages because they're a CDP. They're all on the edge of Silver Spring "proper", according to the census bureau. E.g:

 * Forest Glen, Maryland -- Hillandale, Maryland -- Kemp Mill, Maryland -- White Oak, Maryland

The following not-intrinsically-notable housing subdivisions (per Wikipedia:Run of the mill), but they complete the list of neighborhoods inside the Silver Spring CDP, since they are isolated jurisdictionally from their natural neighbors and included in Silver Spring by default:

 * Oakview, Maryland (main article: Adelphi, Maryland) -- North Takoma (main article: Takoma Park) -- Rolling Terrace (main article: Langley Park, Maryland)

The inner neighborhoods, despite being more populous, are all in a single CDP (Silver Spring) and don't have their own pages, like, say, Hillandale. Here's a justification for listing the following, here or on a separate page:

 * Downtown Silver Spring -- already a focus of article. included for the sake of distinguishing other areas. Fenton District -- historic town center, focus of redevelopment efforts, had its own National Trust Main Street program. South Silver Spring -- part of Downtown Silver Spring, home of Blair estate and Acorn park, has its own Gateway plan. -- Long Branch and East Silver Spring - notable for containing the International Corridor around the Flower shopping center. Much larger than a lot of areas, has its own separate master plan and everything. Woodside - historic district (unsure if it's registered or not) with a long history. -- West Silver Spring - large, completely distinct area containing the National Park Seminary Historic District, Walter Reed Annex, and its own proposed rail station. Four Corners - really a completely self-contained enclave, separated by the Beltway and Sligo Creek Park. It's the only place north of the beltway included in the census definition of Silver Spring, though.

I am not proposing stub pages for these... They do deserve slight mention in a page about Silver Spring, however. If a section on neighborhoods is not needed, perhaps it should be put on a page, e.g: "Silver Spring, Maryland Neighborhoods". Most of these neighborhoods are as big or bigger than most CDPs in Maryland, do not need their own separate articles, but to be cited for the reason that Silver Spring is not a homogeneous area. Edited for clarity by Yclept:Berr (talk) 10:54, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

 * The problem with including neighborhoods like this is that the boundaries of Silver Spring are undefined. For instance, I live in Aspen Hill, Maryland (five miles outside the Beltway).  My mailing address is Silver Spring.  Do I live in a neighborhood of Silver Spring?  What about Glenmont, Maryland?  Same idea.  You see where this gets a bit dicey.  It strays into original research just a bit to say that certain areas are neighborhoods of Silver Spring, etc. specifically because the boundaries are undefined.

 * I think it would be best to let sleeping dogs lie on this one, just because it's difficult, if not impossible, to define exactly what to define Silver Spring as due to its being a CDP in unincorporated Montgomery County, and not a municipality with defined city or town limits (compare to Rockville, Maryland, which is an incorporated municipality). SchuminWeb (Talk) 02:31, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I hear what you're saying, but... Once you get beyond the Silver Spring CDP, all those small outlying neighborhoods already have their own wikipedia pages, not so much because they are notable as because WP considers CDPs inherently notable. The real issue here is the neighborhoods within the CDP don't get that mention. of the neighborhoods listed above, only a few (the ones that already have their own wiki pages :-) are not in the area already defined by the census as Silver Spring. We could do a list (here or on a separate page) of:

 * The Silver Spring CDP contains the following neighborhoods: ( that don't have their own pages)

 * Downtown / Fenton / East Silver Spring / West Silver Spring / South Silver Spring / Rolling Terrace / Clifton Park / Between the Creeks (Long Branch / Indian Spring) / Four Corners / Woodside -- Oakview (the latter for completeness sake; the census really should count it as Adelphi, there's not even a road between it and Silver Spring) ...

 * The following outlying CDPs are sometimes considered by official body X's really broad definition to also be part of Silver Spring: This would limit outlying neighborhoods to places with their own wiki pages, since that appears to be WP policy for smaller, unincorporated areas.
 * Kemp Mill, Maryland / Forest Glen, Maryland / Hillandale, Maryland / White Oak, Maryland / Fairland, Maryland / Colesville, Maryland

 * Does any organization consider the following part of Silver Spring? I mean, the post office thinks Langley Park is in Hyattsville. Maybe it was in 1940:
 * Wheaton-Glenmont, Maryland -- Aspen Hill, Maryland
 * Calverton, Maryland is mostly in Prince George's County.
 * Kensington, Maryland -- North Kensington, Maryland
 * Burtonsville, Maryland and Cloverly, Maryland (far northeast)

 * Hmm. I will wait for more feedback on this and come back to it later. Thanks for your reply. Yclept:Berr (talk) 03:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Edited for clarity by Yclept:Berr (talk) 10:54, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

 * The whole thing kind of seems like a moot point to me unless we can get reliable sourcing for what is "sometimes considered" in the Silver Spring CDP. Let's table for now unless/until we get some really good reliable sources to back it all up.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:49, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I was mainly concerned for the places that are actually inside the official census area, as they have no mention in the article. The official census map defines it as places inside the Beltway, plus Four Corners. But then, you're right it might not make sense to list those and not outlying areas.
 * One other issue to consider is that there is no easy way of navigating from the Silver Spring, Maryland page to, say, Fairland, Maryland. One solution would be to use the largest "official" definition (post office?) as the outside boundary (see above) and cite those areas (census districts only) so that people actually have a way of finding those pages. Anyway... Yclept:Berr (talk) 11:26, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Proposal for adding 2010 hostage taking at DCI HQ to history
I feel as though the 2010 Discovery Communications HQ hostage crisis is at least worth noting somewhere in the history section, considering all the other arguably trivial events that are discussed. After all, the DCI HQ is an icon of downtown Silver Spring and the hostage crisis was a "big deal" and got a considerable amount of media attention. Just a suggestion, though I suppose someone else would have to be willing to insert at least a short paragraph with a "see [this page]" link on it, as I'm no Wikipedia expert...

Thanks, 71.163.128.20 (talk) 02:02, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

 * I'm tempted to say let's not because of WP:NOTNEWS at this point. Otherwise we end up with a problem with recentism.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 02:10, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree Smooth Henry (talk) 10:18, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

no mention of the state of downtown silver spring before the revitalization of 2004?
being a lifelong citizen i remember most of the areas around the city place mall being in ruins (or empty abandoned shops if that is a preffered term)... the afi silver theater being one of the many abandoned buildings in the area of that section of downtown silver spring... or is there no mention because this article is meant to put silver spring in a good light instead of providing all historical facts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.93.71 (talk) 17:53, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

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Program ideal
How do you present a program idea Charliedfa (talk) 21:38, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Culture section
Is it just me, or is the culture section in serious need of citations? Airbornemihir (talk) 22:10, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

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 * Ambulance going down Georgia Avenue in Silver Spring in 1950.webm

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title: Talk:Silver Spring, Maryland


text:
User:RCRC

Just a catch-all page to avoid bleeding links on the contrib.

title: User:RCRC


text:
Brian Cherney

Brian Cherney (born 1942) is a Canadian composer currently residing in Montreal, Quebec.

Cherney was born in Peterborough, Ontario. He studied at the University of Toronto where he was a pupil of John Weinzweig, Samuel Dolin, and John Beckwith. In 1972 he joined Schulich School of Music of McGill University, where he has taught analysis and composition for over fifty years. His pieces, often characterized by carefully calculated formal trajectories and a rich harmonic language, give the impression of a quiet intensity, usually featuring "stillness" in some manner. His works have been played throughout North America, Europe, and elsewhere. Cherney maintains an active career as a composer, teacher and author; his book Harry Somers (1975, U of T Press) remains one of the most important and detailed works of reference on this composer. He was awarded the Jules Léger Prize for New Chamber Music in 1985 for River of Fire. He is the brother of oboist Lawrence Cherney.

Cherney was made a member of the Order of Canada in 2021.

Works
Orchestra
 * Variations for Orchestra (1967)
 * Seven Images for Twenty Two Players (1971)
 * Adieux (1980)
 * In the Stillness Between (1982)
 * Into the Distant Stillness (1984)
 * Illuminations (1987)
 * Transfiguration (1990)
 * Et la solitude dérive au fil des fleuves... (1995)

Concertante
 * Concerto for Violin and Orchestra (1963)
 * Six Miniatures for Oboe and Strings (1968)
 * Chamber Concerto for Viola and Ten Players (1975)
 * Oboe Concerto (1989)
 * Et j'entends la nuit qui chante dans les cloches (1990)

Instrumental ensemble
 * Kontakion, Quiet Music for Eleven Players (1969)
 * Apparitions (1991)
 * In the Stillness of September 1942 (1992)
 * Die Klingende Zeit (1993–1994)

Chamber music
 * Sonata for violin and piano (1961)
 * Quintet for saxophone and string quartet (1962)
 * Woodwind Quintet (1965)
 * Interlude and Variations for woodwind quintet (1965)
 * String Quartet No.1 (1966)
 * Six Miniatures for oboe and piano (1968)
 * String Quartet No.2 (1970)
 * Notturno for piano and woodwind quintet (1974)
 * String Trio (1976)
 * Group Portrait – With Piano for piano and woodwind quintet (1978)
 * Beyond the Seventh Palace for viola and percussion (1982)
 * Accord for accordion, oboe and cello (1985)
 * Triolet for flute, harp and bassoon (1980)
 * Playing for Time for oboe, percussion and piano (1981)
 * Gan Eden for violin and piano (1983)
 * River of Fire for oboe d'amore and harp (1983)
 * String Quratet No.3 (1985)
 * In Stillness Ascending for viola and piano (1986)
 * In the Stillness of the Summer Wind for oboe and string quartet (1987)
 * Trois petites pièces désséchées... En forme de sandwich for viola and piano (1979)
 * Le fil d'ariane for guitar and percussion (1988)
 * Dunkle Stimmen... Am Rande der Nacht for violin, cello and contrabass (1988)
 * Dopplegänger for two flutes (1991)
 * Like Ghosts from an Enchanter Fleeing for cello and piano (1993)
 * String Quartet No.4 (1994)
 * In the Great Museum of our Memory for bass oboe and bass clarinet (1994)
 * Echoes in the Memory for clarinet, cello and piano (1997)
 * Entendre marcher un ange... for flute and percussion (1998)
 * Qui entendrait le cri d'un ange dans les ténèbres? for clarinet, ondes Martenot and cello (1998)
 * Music for a Summer Wedding for flute, viola and harp (2000–2002)
 * String Quartet No. 6 (2009)
 * In Time's Wake for oboe and Piano (2013)
 * 22 Arguments for the Suspense of Disbelief for flute, cello and Piano (2013)

Music for instrumental solo
 * Mobile II for cello (1968)
 * Mobile IIIa for oboe (1970)
 * Tangents I for cello (1975)
 * Tangents II for oboe (1976)
 * Seven Miniatures in the Form of a Mobile for viola (1978)
 * Études for oboe (1979)
 * Gothic Scenes and Interludes for organ (1983–1987)
 * Epitaph for English horn (1986)
 * Déploration for harpsichord (1988)
 * Shekhinah for viola (1988)
 * Doppelgänger, version for flute solo (1992)
 * In the Stillness of Eden for violin (1992)
 * Le dernier cri for trumpet (1992)
 * The Return of Ulysses for alto saxophone (1992)
 * Music for a Solitary Cellist for cello (1993)
 * In the Great Museum of our Memory for bass oboe (1994)
 * Jam for Frances for trombone (1997)
 * Incantation for flute (1999)
 * Quelques pensées sur le 300e anniversaire du voloncelle Carlo Tonini d'Antonio Lysy... for cello (2003)
 * Capriccio for Solo Cello for cello (2011)

Piano
 * Six Miniatures (1965)
 * Sonata (1966)
 * Jest (1967)
 * Intervalls, Patterns, Shapes (1968)
 * Pieces for Young Pianists (3 volumes) (1968)
 * Dans le crépuscule de souvenir, 5 pieces (1977–1980)
 * In the Stillness of the Seventh Autumn (1983)
 * Quelques fois, à l'ombre de la nuit... au lointain... (1991–1992)
 * Tombeau, 7 pieces (1996)

Vocal music
 * Two Songs for soprano and chamber orchestra (1963)
 * Mobile IV, text by Tu Fu, for soprano and chamber ensemble (1969)
 * Eclipse, text by Brian Hendersen, for soprano and chamber ensemble (1972)
 * Tenebrae, for choir (2002)
 * Hannah's Prayer, for choir (2004)
 * Die Niemandrose, for choir (2006)
 * Three Songs to Texts by Paul Celan, for soprano and piano (2007)
 * An Unfinished Life, for narrator, choir, and chamber orchestra (2007)
 * Sérénade triste, for choir (2012)

title: Brian Cherney


text:
User talk:RCRC

To avoid bleeding links.

Thanks
Thanks for your copyedits to Tamil Nadu. -- 04:34, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Indian Railways
The Indian Railways is the current INCOTW and your vote helped select it. Let's all now make it up to featured status. = Nichalp ( Talk )= 19:40, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Striking your vote
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Etienne de Villiers
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ITF
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M. K. Tyagaraja Bhagavadar
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Edits to Trichy
On your edits to Notable people section in Trichy, if you had a chance to look at the history, you would see I recently curtailed the section and cleaned it. But an Anon undid it. So, I am reverting back to my edits, a couple of days ago. Feel free to chime in. - RC 13:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey. Let me know if it gets undone again so that we can ensure the stability of this section. Regards, El_C 20:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Tennis Championships
In regards to this discussion:

FYI, when a discussion is active on talk, don't persuade by RVs. You make valid points and I agree with them. But, they still are champions and thus encyclopedia and every other tennis historian/authority has accepted them as is. Your point of NOT counting them towards their slams may or may not be accurate. But I am not debating that. It is just an issue of listing them as is, as they were awarded trophies that were legacy French championships, whether national or international. Insisting on displaying them different for the sake of being different is somewhat trivial. Clear footnotes has been made showing when the tourney name has been changed and thus started including them. If you feel that it doesn't distinguish enough, feel free to make a statement in the beginning of the article mentioning, "Pre 1925 French Opens were exclusive to French nationals who are part of the club etc.. and hence tradition suggest not counting them towards individual slam count etc..". That along with NPOV tag should be sufficient for all parties concerned to make the distinction you are seeking. Again, I am not taking a position on counting or not. Merely shading them grey IMHO just indicate persecution. If someone still makes them include on slam count, then RV as you desire - RC 01:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually what we have here is worse than simply 'greying out'. We have a gross misrepresentation of history. In fact, all four of the tournaments, in their early years, were simply 'local' (not 'international') tournaments. It is not hard to find evidence that the U.S. 'Open' was actually 'closed' in the early years:

http://www.all-about-tennis.com/tennisgrandslam.html

Entry was limited to only those clubs which were members of the United States National Lawn Tennis Association,

We see it was called the U.S. 'National' championships, not 'international'...

Yet we find the very first winner of the 'French' championships was a British man. So, not only is Fyunclick wrong on style, he's wrong on substance. Let things like qualitative assessment come from others. Simply state the results as-is. Ryoung122 06:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Possibly unfree Image:1950s_Tennis_at_Pinelands_Club,_Cape_Town.jpg
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Edit war, need opinion
As part of the tennis project, I have chosen you randomly to help out in the current edit war going on, discussed here, Thank you so much Yosef1987 (talk) 22:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

ITF and ATP Matches
Hello, this section that you created, I moved to its own page. I think this was done in good faith, but made Roger Federer career statistics page way to long WP:SIZE, which I would love for you to update it to show the current matches! It will be hard to maintain though. BLUE DOG TN 01:12, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Rafael Nadal and Serena Williams
When you can get to it see if you can't make the tables for all their matches, too!69.137.120.81 (talk) 22:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Notification: changes to "Mark my edits as minor by default" preference
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Speedy deletion nomination of United News of India

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ArbCom elections are now open!
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Please follow Tennis Project Guidelines
Performance timelines should never include the lesser events (250 or 500 tournaments). This is spelled out in our consensus guidelines at Project Tennis Guidelines. Bring it up at the Tennis Project talk page if you want to change consensus. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:02, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

title: User talk:RCRC


text:
Pacific Island Aviation

Pacific Island Aviation (PIA) was a commuter airline headquartered on the second floor of the Cabrera Center in Garapan, Saipan, Northern Mariana Islands. It operated passenger and cargo services. Its main base was Saipan International Airport. PIA's last flight was February 9, 2005.

Former code data

 * IATA Code: 9J
 * ICAO Code: PSA
 * Callsign: PACIFIC ISLE

History
The airline was established in 1987 and began helicopter operations in August 1988. It secured commuter airline status in February 1992 and started operations as such on 21 March 1992. It became a codeshare partner with Continental Micronesia in December 1992 and took over flights to Guam, Rota and Saipan. In February 1995 Continental discontinued its service to Rota and Pacific Island Aviation began codesharing with Northwest Airlines, becoming a Northwest Airlink carrier in February 1998. It was wholly owned by Robert Christian.

After it discontinued service in Saipan, the airline attempted to restart its operations, but base itself out of Texas, providing flights from Dallas to Lake Charles and Beaumont. It planned to operate as Tri-Star Airways.

Services
As of January 2005 Pacific Island Aviation operated the following services:

 * Guam (U.S.)
 * Antonio B. Won Pat International Airport
 * Northern Mariana Islands (U.S.)
 * Rota (Rota International Airport)
 * Saipan (Saipan International Airport)

(Services to Tinian International Airport on Tinian were suspended before the airline went out of business.)

Incidents and accidents

 * 27 October 1992 - Pacific Island Aviation Cessna 310R aircraft, at Saipan, two fatalities.

Fleet
As of March 2005 the Pacific Island Aviation fleet included:

title: Pacific Island Aviation


text:
User:Lord Emsworth/To do

Royal/ ceremonial officers

 * Great Officers of State (excluding Lord High Stewards and Lord High Constables who served for coronations)
 * Officers of the Royal Household (Lord Steward, Lord Chamberlain, Master of the Horse, Mistress of the Robes, Treasurer of the Household, Comptroller of the Household, Vice-Chamberlain of the Household, Master of the Buckhounds, Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms, Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard, etc.)
 * Lord Lieutenants of Ireland
 * Governors-General (Antigua & Barbuda, Australia, the Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Ceylon, Fiji, the Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, India, the Irish Free State, Jamaica, Kenya, Malawi, Malta, Mauritius, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, St Kitts & Nevis, St Lucia, St Vincent & the Grenadines, Sierra Leone, the Solomon Islands, South Africa, Tanganyika, Trinidad & Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda)
 * Colonial/ Commonwealth Realm Governors and Lieutenant Governors

Cabinet and Parliament

 * Prime Ministers
 * First Lords of Commissions of Great Offices of State (First Lord of the Treasury, First Lord of the Admiralty, etc.)
 * Chancellors of the Exchequer, Chancellors of the Duchy of Lancaster
 * Secretaries of State ( Principal Secretary of State; Southern Department, Northern Department; Colonies, Foreign Affairs, India, Dominion Affairs, Commonwealth Relations, Commonwealth Affairs, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, International Development; Home Department; War, War and the Colonies, Air, Defence; Education and Science, Education, Education and Employment, Education and Skills; Economic Affairs, Social Services, Social Security, Work and Pensions; Industry, Trade and Regional Development, Trade, Industry, Trade and Industry; Transport; Health; National Heritage, Culture, Media and Sport; Environment, Environment, Transport and the Regions, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Prices and Consumer Protection; Energy; Constitutional Affairs, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland)
 * Secretaries for Scotland
 * Chief Secretaries for Ireland
 * Secretaries to the Treasury
 * Economic Secretaries to the Treasury
 * Secretaries at War
 * Ministers of Health, other Ministers
 * Presidents of the Board of Trade, Presidents of the Board of Education, Presidents of the Board of Control, Presidents of the Poor Law Board, Presidents of the Local Government Board, Presidents of the Board of Agriculture
 * First Commissioners of Works, First Commissioners of Woods and Forests
 * Speakers of the House of Commons
 * Leaders of the House of Lords, Leaders of the House of Commons
 * Leaders of major parties (Whig, Tory/Conservative, Labour, etc.)

Military

 * Paymasters of the Forces, Masters-General of the Ordnance, Captains-General
 * Lord Wardens of the Cinque Ports, First Sea Lords, Treasurers of the Navy
 * Commanders-in-Chief of the Forces, Chiefs of the General Staff, Chiefs of the Imperial General Staff, Commanders-in-Chief, India, Commanders-in-Chief, Ireland, Commanders-in-Chief, North America

Law officers/ judges

 * Attorneys General for England and Wales, Solicitors General for England and Wales
 * Lord Advocates, Solicitors General for Scotland
 * Attorneys General for Ireland, Solicitors General for Ireland
 * Lord Chief Justices of the King's [Queen's] Bench, Lord Chief Justices of the Common Pleas, Lord Chief Barons of the Exchequer
 * Lord Chief Justices
 * Masters of the Rolls

Church of England

 * Archbishops
 * Diocesan bishops

Church of Ireland

 * Archbishops
 * Diocesan bishops

Church in Wales

 * Archbishops of Wales
 * Diocesan bishops

Other

 * Postmasters-General
 * Paymasters-General
 * Masters of the Mint
 * First Ministers of Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland

title: User:Lord Emsworth/To do