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Les Sealey

Leslie Jesse Sealey (29 September 1957 – 19 August 2001) was an English professional football player and coach.

He played as a goalkeeper, most notably in the top flight for Coventry City, Luton Town, Manchester United, Aston Villa, and West Ham United. He also played in the Football League for Plymouth Argyle, Birmingham City, Blackpool, Leyton Orient and Bury.

Following retirement, Sealey was appointed first team goalkeeping coach at West Ham United, a position he was in when he died of a heart attack on 19 August 2001.

Career
Sealey joined Coventry City as an apprentice in 1976 and made his debut as a 19-year-old on 11 April 1977, in a 1–1 draw at Queens Park Rangers. He spent the next five seasons at the West Midlands club before joining Luton Town in 1983 for £100,000. He was a regular in the team for much of his time at Kenilworth Road, but he missed their 1988 League Cup triumph due to injury, his place being taken by Andy Dibble. A year later, Luton reached the final again and he was able to keep goal this time in a 3–1 defeat to Nottingham Forest in which Sealey had a poor game, including fouling Steve Hodge to concede a penalty (converted by Nigel Clough). He was dropped from the team for Luton's next game and replaced by Alec Chamberlain. Sealey never played for Luton again.

In December 1989, Sealey was loaned to Manchester United and made two league appearances during the final weeks of the season. He was named as goalkeeper for the 1990 FA Cup final replay against Crystal Palace after a poor display from Jim Leighton in the preceding 3–3 draw, and made several saves to help his side win 1–0. He later offered his winner's medal to Leighton, who had played throughout the cup run, but the FA subsequently granted medals to both players, who remained friends thereafter.

United signed Sealey on a permanent basis, and he was their regular goalkeeper throughout the 1990–91 season, keeping goal in their League Cup Final defeat to Sheffield Wednesday (in which he was injured, but refused to leave the field) and the Cup Winners' Cup Final victory over Barcelona the following month. He became a cult hero with United fans and got a standing ovation whenever he returned to Old Trafford. He was hoping to get a two-year contract, but was offered just a one-year deal and turned it down in favour of a transfer, and was signed by Aston Villa. For much of the first half of 1991–92, Sealey was Villa's first-choice goalkeeper, but he then lost his place to long-serving Nigel Spink and never played for the club again.

He had several games on loan at Birmingham City during the opening weeks of the 1992–93 season before returning to Manchester United on a free transfer in January 1993, this time as Peter Schmeichel's understudy.

In his second spell at Old Trafford, he made just two first-team appearances – once as a substitute when Schmeichel was sent off in the FA Cup Quarter-final against Charlton and the other in the League Cup final for which Schmeichel was suspended, which United lost 3–1 to his old club, Aston Villa. It meant his last four appearances for United were a Cup Winners Cup Final, two League Cup Finals and an FA Cup Quarter-final. He had, however, been an unused substitute for most of United's matches since his return to the club, though Gary Walsh was selected as substitute goalkeeper for the 1994 FA Cup final.

At the end of the season he was given a free transfer and joined Blackpool, but within six months he had left Bloomfield Road and returned to the Premiership with boyhood heroes West Ham.

Due to an injury crisis, Sealey made his Hammers debut as an outfield player, coming on as an attacking substitute against Arsenal in the autumn of 1995. During his 18-month spell at the Boleyn Ground, he was understudy to Luděk Mikloško.

Sealey joined Third Division club Leyton Orient in 1996, and was their first-choice goalkeeper from the start of 1996–97.

In December 1996, the 39-year-old Sealey returned to West Ham in an exchange deal for 47-year-old Peter Shilton. He made his last first-team appearance on the final day of the 1996–97 season, fittingly against Manchester United at Old Trafford. He had come on as a substitute for Luděk Mikloško, West Ham's regular first-choice goalkeeper.

At the end of the 1997–98 season he was loaned out to Bury but did not make a first-team appearance. Upon his return to West Ham he was appointed as the club's goalkeeper coach, although he was still registered as a player during the 1999–00 season, taking him past his 42nd birthday in September 1999.

Personal life
He was a nephew of Alan Sealey, another West Ham United player.

He was the father of footballers Joe and George Sealey. Joe notably played as a goalkeeper for West Ham United but at the age of 21 was forced to retire through injury.

Death
Sealey was still employed as West Ham's goalkeeper coach when he died of a heart attack on 19 August 2001 at the age of 43. One of Sealey's pupils at West Ham was Stephen Bywater who wore the number 43 on his shirt as a tribute to his former coach. Also at the club were Sealey's sons, George and Joe.

Honours
Manchester United
 * FA Cup: 1989–90
 * FA Charity Shield: 1990 (shared), 1993
 * European Cup Winners' Cup: 1990–91
 * Football League Cup runner-up: 1993–94

title: Les Sealey


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Pink Star (diamond)

The Pink Star, formerly known as the Steinmetz Pink, is a diamond weighing 59.60 carats (11.92 g), rated in color as Fancy Vivid Pink by the Gemological Institute of America. The Pink Star was mined by De Beers in 1999 in South Africa, and weighed 132.5 carats in the rough. The Pink Star is the largest known diamond having been rated Vivid Pink. As a result of this exceptional rarity, the Beny Steinmetz Group called Steinmetz Diamonds took a cautious 20 months to cut the Pink. It was unveiled in Monaco on 29 May 2003 in a public ceremony.

The Pink Star was displayed (as the Steinmetz Pink) as part of the Smithsonian's "The Splendor of Diamonds" exhibit, alongside the De Beers Millennium Star, the world's second largest (the Cullinan I is the largest) top colour (D) internally and externally flawless pear-shaped diamond at 203.04 carat (40.608 g), the Heart of Eternity Diamond, a 27.64 carat (5.582 g) heart-cut blue diamond, and the Moussaieff Red Diamond, the world's largest known Fancy Red diamond at 5.11 carats (1.022 g).

2013 and 2017 auctions
The Pink Star was auctioned by Sotheby's Geneva on 13 November 2013. The sale price was CHF 68,000,000 (CHF 76,325,000, USD 83,187,381 including commission fees), a world record for any gemstone. The record had been held by the Graff Pink. The Pink Star was bought by New York diamond cutter Isaac Wolf who renamed it The Pink Dream although, according to Forbes magazine, the auction price was not settled by the buyer and the stone was again added to the Sotheby's inventory.

On 3 April 2017, the Pink Star was sold at an auction in Hong Kong for US$71.2 million to Chow Tai Fook Enterprises.

Names

 * 1999–2007: The Steinmetz Pink
 * 2007–2017: The Pink Star
 * 2017–present: CTF Pink Star

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Pink Star (diamond)


text:
Talk:The Temptations of Jean-Claude Killy

VFD
On 25 March 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was merge to Jean-Claude Killy. See Votes for deletion/The Temptations of Jean-Claude Killy for a record of the discussion. – ABCD 21:38, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Merge

 * I don't think the article should be merged with Jean-Claude Killy. The concern is that the Hunter S. Thompson article on Killy is not influential enough to merit a whole wikipedia article. I would agree if this were a normal encyclopedia, but given the greater scope of wikipedia and its precedent for effectively and efficiently cataloging less important topics (e.g., hairstyles, soundtrack tracklistings, etc.), I say this article definitely merits existence. The Thompson article The Temptations of Jean-Claude Killy is only partly about Killy, as this wikipedia entry details, and very much about American advertising, sports, and Thompson's own personality and unique journalistic style. Therefore, I don't think it makes sense to merge it with Jean-Claude Killy, since its writing wasn't a major part of his life, but rather to keep it as it is, since the article is a significant part of Thompson's early work and a salient example of early gonzo journalism. --Tarnas 05:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Might be better to note your objections on the VFD page instead of here, just to get it on the record.Logan 5 28 June 2005 16:32 (UTC)
 * The VFD page says it's no longer live and I should use this talk page for further comments. Is it normal to add stuff like this to an archival page? --Tarnas 28 June 2005 19:11 (UTC)

I agree that this article shouldn't be merged into the article of Jean Claude Killy. This article represents 1 or 2 years of his life. Also, I think it's overlooked in this article that there's no mention of the Chicago Auto Show. Certainly a few words can mention this. V Schauf (talk) 09:38, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


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My Six Convicts

My Six Convicts is a 1952 American film noir crime drama directed by Hugo Fregonese. The screenplay was adapted by Michael Blankfort from the autobiographical book My Six Convicts: A Psychologist's Three Years in Fort Leavenworth, written by Donald Powell Wilson.

The film stars Millard Mitchell, Gilbert Roland, John Beal and Marshall Thompson. Mitchell won a Golden Globe Award for his performance.

Plot
Prison psychologist Doc attempts to help his incarcerated patients.

Cast
Uncredited
 * Millard Mitchell as James Connie
 * Gilbert Roland as Punch Pinero
 * John Beal as "Doc"
 * Marshall Thompson as Blivens Scott
 * Alf Kjellin as Clem Randall
 * Henry Morgan as Dawson
 * Jay Adler as Steve Kopac
 * Regis Toomey as Dr. Gordon
 * Fay Roope as the Warden
 * Carleton Young as Captain Haggerty
 * John Marley as Knotty Johnson
 * Russ Conway as Dr. Hughes
 * Byron Foulger as Dr. Brint
 * Charles Bronson as Jocko (credited as Charles Buchinsky)

 * Wesley Addy as Convict
 * Jack Carr as Harry Higgins
 * Dick Curtis as Guard
 * George Eldredge as Convict #3
 * Fred Kelsey as Store detective
 * Shirley Mills as Blonde Tilly
 * Frank Mitchell as Convict #3007
 * Billy Nelson as Guard
 * Joe Palma as Convict driver
 * Eddie Parker as Guard on dump trunk
 * Barney Phillips as Baker, the foreman
 * Carol Savage as Mrs. Randall
 * Charles Sullivan as Driscoll

Style
While dealing with serious issues, the film conveys a comedic tone. The film is true to the overall spirit of the book upon which it is based, but dramatic license was taken with certain events that were created solely to add dramatic elements. For example, the failed prison break and the resulting death of an innocent inmate are fictional plot points not found in Donald Powell Wilson's book, although the book may itself contain plot contrivances.

Production
The film was shot on location at San Quentin State Prison, where warden Clinton Duffy had implemented reforms that sought to rehabilitate prisoners much in the same way as does the Doc character.

Because of San Quentin's strict policy prohibiting women from entering the inner prison area, a short prison guard was asked to impersonate the Mrs. Randall character in long shots. Actress Carol Savage portrayed the character in closeup studio shots.

Musical director Dimitri Tiomkin visited Sing Sing prison to hear the prisoners' band and songs sung by the prisoners in preparation for his film score.

Reception
In a contemporary review for The New York Times, critic A. H. Weiler wrote: "... [P]enology, psychology and crime have been blended into a compassionate, thoughtful, incisive and, above all, genuinely humorous account of life behind prison walls. ... There may be doubters who will scoff at the possibility of a convict such as Connie being permitted to leave the penitentiary (under guard) to open a bank safe but as played by Millard Mitchell, who runs off with the acting honors, the facts are not particularly important."

Director Hugo Fregonese received fan letters from prison inmates and said, "I'm flattered. After all, these are the first fan letters I've ever received."

title: My Six Convicts


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Delta Air Transport

Delta Air Transport (abbreviated DAT) was a Belgian regional airline headquartered in Antwerp, Belgium, operating scheduled and chartered flights, mostly on short-haul routes. It served a multitude of regional European destinations on behalf of Sabena during the 1990s and early 2000s.

History
Delta Air Transport was founded in 1966, by Frans Van den Bergh, as a provider for air taxi and charter flight services with an initial fleet of three Cessna aircraft (one each of the types Skymaster, 210 and 206). DAT's first scheduled flight from Antwerp to Amsterdam on behalf of KLM took place on 19 September 1967; for that purpose two Beechcraft Queen Air feederliners had been acquired (some sources erroneously mention three of the type). Operations grew when the larger Douglas DC-3 and DC-6 joined the fleet over the following years, allowing DAT to operate charter flights on behalf of KLM (which owned a 33.3 percent stake in DAT), Sabena, Crossair and BIAS. In 1973, the majority of the airline's stake was bought by Compagnie Maritime Belge. During 1974, a Boeing 720 was leased, allowing DAT to offer worldwide charter flights under the Delta International branding, which soon turned out to be unsuccessful, though.

In 1986, Sabena acquired a 49 percent stake in DAT, and an increasing number of flights were operated on behalf of the Belgian national airline henceforth (also adopting the airline codes of Sabena), using a fleet of British Aerospace 146 aircraft, in favor of which other airliners were gradually phased out. DAT became a member of the European Regional Airlines Association in 1993. In 1996, Sabena bought the remaining KLM stake, thus DAT became a wholly owned Sabena subsidiary, moved its headquarters from Antwerp to Brussels and was re-branded as DAT Belgian Regional Airline, offering low-cost flights. Gradually, the livery of Sabena was applied to all DAT aircraft.

On 1 November 2001, Sabena collapsed due to financial difficulties. DAT could re-launch its operations on 10 November with a flight to Geneva, having received all of Sabena's slots at Brussels Airport and thus being able to maintain the successful European network. Freddy Van Gaever, its former CEO, planned to merge DAT with Virgin Express and add flights to the United States using former Sabena aircraft, which was why the new DAT Plus branding was adopted. Actually, DAT came under the umbrella of SN Airholding (the liquidator of Sabena) in 2002, and was re-organized under a new AOC as SN Brussels Airlines, which later became Brussels Airlines after indeed merging with Virgin Express, today's flag carrier of the country.

Destinations
In its early years, Delta Air Transport offered up to 4 daily scheduled flights between its then base at Antwerp Airport and Amsterdam Airport Schiphol on behalf of KLM (the contract lasted until 1997, when DAT had become a wholly owned Sabena subsidiary), as well as a limited number of routes to the neighboring countries. During the 1990s and early 2000s, DAT was able to grow an extensive short-haul network, as more and more flights were operated on behalf of demising Sabena, eventually becoming the tenth largest regional airline of the continent, transporting more than 1.7 million passengers per year. During its height, the airline had nearly 800 employees, and served the following cities on a scheduled basis from its hub at Brussels Airport:

 * Austria
 * Vienna
 * Bulgaria
 * Sofia
 * Croatia
 * Zagreb
 * Czech Republic
 * Prague
 * Denmark
 * Copenhagen
 * Finland
 * Helsinki
 * France
 * Bordeaux
 * Paris
 * Lyon
 * Marseille
 * Nice
 * Strasbourg
 * Toulouse

 * Germany
 * Berlin
 * Düsseldorf
 * Frankfurt
 * Hamburg
 * Hanover
 * Munich
 * Stuttgart
 * Greece
 * Athens
 * Hungary
 * Budapest
 * Ireland
 * Dublin
 * Italy
 * Bologna
 * Florence
 * Milan
 * Naples
 * Rome
 * Turin
 * Venice

 * Luxemburg
 * Luxembourg
 * Netherlands
 * Amsterdam
 * Norway
 * Oslo
 * Poland
 * Warsaw
 * Portugal
 * Lisbon
 * Porto
 * Romania
 * Bucharest
 * Spain
 * Barcelona
 * Bilbao
 * Madrid
 * Málaga
 * Seville
 * Valencia

 * Sweden
 * Gothenburg
 * Stockholm
 * Switzerland
 * Basel
 * Geneva
 * Zürich
 * United Kingdom
 * Birmingham
 * Bristol
 * Edinburgh
 * Glasgow
 * Leeds
 * London
 * Manchester
 * Newcastle upon Tyne

Fleet
Over the years, Delta Air Transport operated the following aircraft types:

Accidents and incidents

 * On 4 October 1974 at 20:01 local time, the flight engineer of a DAT Douglas DC-6 (registered OO-VGB) decided to retract the nose gear during take-off run at London Southend Airport even though the aircraft had not yet lifted off, which happened due to a communication error with the pilots. The airplane slid along the runway, during which it was damaged beyond repair. 99 passengers had been on board the flight to Antwerp, one of which was severely injured (another four received minor injuries from evacuating the aircraft). The six crew members remained uninjured.
 * On 2 June 1990 at 19:11 local time, a DAT Embraer EMB 120 Brasilia (registered OO-DTA) without any passengers collided with a Piper Aerostar during a low-pass manoeuvre at Antwerp International Airport, resulting in the crash of the Piper and the death of the four people on board. The two aircraft had been performing a close formation flight for aerial photographs of the DAT Embraer for advertising purposes.

title: Delta Air Transport


text:
Talk:Black cat

Black Cats and the Black Death
"Another possible theory as to how the plague spread so quickly is that by killing many of the cats (believed to be witches' familiars) during the witch hunts caused the rodent population to rise, and with them rose the probability of infection." Taken from an anon, 68.174.249.133, contribution from the Black Death, later reverted.

I've heard this theory, but don't have the materials on hand to substantiate it. Actually it was probably a social result of the ongoing waves of plague. People looked for scapegoats -- some reason why these horrible things were happening to them -- and often focused on older people who may have survived earlier rounds of the disease (and Jews, of course). The number of accusations of witchcraft increased, and measures became more draconian. These people's pets and livestock were often burned or hung along with them as "familiars." I also remember that it was about this time that the genetic mutation that results in black domestic cats emerged (I have no answer to those who might assert that black cats existed earlier). The sudden appearance of these "black imps of Satan" was mentioned in a couple of sources. This has led some social and cultural historian(s) to speculate about roundups of cats during the plague, the death of cats with heretics, and the source of medieval superstitions about black cats. An interesting bit of information, but not for the article unless verification can be found. WBardwin 21:40, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Black Cat=Evil?
I don't agree, in my part of the world (Middle East) blacks cats don't carry the usual malicious meanins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.101.33.224 (talk • contribs) 16:54, June 26, 2005

I don't agree either.They do not equal evil. They are one of God's creations and they shouldn't be judged by the way they look. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.25.220.148 (talk) 06:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.240.222.12 (talk) 18:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Witchcraft
Much of this section seems to have come from a spurious Wiccan book, which often rely far to much on Margaret Murray. Needs a look. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.173.6.74 (talk • contribs) 08:15, January 24, 2006

Black cat is Good Luck
I live in Britain, and here black cats are considered to be good luck. I know for a fact they were originaly so, and had their reputation changed by the church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndyB62 (talk • contribs) 14:03, June 3, 2006

i live in britain and ive never heard that they bring good luck. ive been told its bad luck for them to cross your path. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.217.225.60 (talk) 07:50, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I was born and live in England and black cats crossing path = good. Don't get confused or mislead by US culture coming over :-) 84.66.14.199 (talk) 21:17, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Somebody should check the validity of this....
"This association with witches possibly stems from pre-Christian Europe when witches weren't considered evil. In fact it was the church, who considered them unholy and pagan, who altered their reputation."

Seems a bit far-fetched. Someone should confirm that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.244.216.110 (talk • contribs) 07:00, August 31, 2006

Actualy, wait, I just reread it and I guess it might make some sense. Still, check it out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.244.216.110 (talk • contribs) 07:02, August 31, 2006

The Church hasn't claimed an issue with cats, of any color, or considered any animals of God's to be "unholy and pagan". The association with cats and the Church refers to the idea that the devil could transform into a cat, or any small creature such as a hare or rodent. Cats, along with the other small animals, were then pursecuted by the Church and deemed evil because of their connection with the devil.Garig (talk) 05:27, 24 April 2008 (UTC)garig

I believe that black cats are good luck. I live here in America and I own a black cat myself. She's very loving and she actually protects us from danger. How come black cats have to be bad luck? Why can't it be orange cats or white cats? Black cats are just like any other cats in this world.

I have a black cat too. He is super spiritual and extremely lucky. They are not evil, that's just something that people who are ignorant ABOUT black cats say. I also believe that ALL cats but black cats have a stronger and more direct connection to the spiritual realm, being half in - half out, or a portal, direct pathway or opened doorway to the other side. CrazyCatLady1980 (talk) 21:21, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Billy goat curse
I'm originally from the Chicago area, a Cubs fan for years and never heard anything about a "black cat curse". A black cat did wander into (or possibly deposited onto the field) at Shea Stadium in 1969-- I have no idea how Ron Santo felt about cats of any coat color then or now. The "Cubs' spotty record/chttp://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_headline.png Level 2 headlineurse" is the Billy Goat Curse of the 1945 World Series. Check out the Billy Goat article for more baseball curse legends, it's fun reading. Jaguara (pwned by cats) 13:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Good or bad luck?
This article seems to contradict itself. Throughout the article cats are refered to as being bad luck, however the caption under the main picture states that black cats are good luck. I am sure that stereotypes involving black cats differ between cultures, so perhaps we should simply state that some people consider them bad and that some people consider them good? - Ridge Racer 23:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Places where black cats are considered good luck -
"In places which weren't affected particularly by witch hunts, they retained their status as good luck, and are still considered as such in Japan, Britain and Egypt."

Japan is most certainly wrong. My friend who lives in Japan has confirmed this is wrong, and furthermore this has no citation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.178.39.70 (talk) 14:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

I agree with the above statement, Japan has always portrayed black cat as bad luck, and it contradicts this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_superstitions  — Preceding unsigned comment added by LittleWhisky (talk • contribs) 15:31, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Cats in general are seen as good luck in the middle east because many of the prophets had a liking for cats. 4.238.142.188 14:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Black cats are also considered lucky in Australia. Eligius (talk) 00:13, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

17th Century -- USA???
Text: "By the 17th Century, however, the cat began to be associated with witchcraft and its luck turned from good to bad in many areas around the world. The black cat was still usually seen as good luck; however, in the USA and parts of Europe (e.g. Spain), which saw witch hunts, the association with witches caused them to be considered as bad luck."

It is questionable to use the term USA with the British Colonies in North America in regards to the witch hunts prior to the Declaration of Independence and the American War of Independence. I wish someone to revise the above sentence to reflect that historically there was no United States of America (USA) in the 17th Century, but I'm not sure how to phrase it myself. I may use the phrase British Colonies in North America, but I'm not sure the witch trials were strictly in the British Colonies, as opposed to the Dutch, French or Spanish Colonies. If anyone has a solution to this dilemma please assist in correcting this egregious error.Galo1969X (talk) 12:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe "in part of the territory that is USA today and parts of Europe (e.g. Spain), which saw witch hunts …. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.15.25.108 (talk) 00:33, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

"Black cats also take a lot of interest in what their owners do."
I deleted this statement because it is just a point of view, or maybe just a joke. It seems most unlikely to be any truer of black cats than any other colour, and needs a reference if it is to be taken seriously. An anonymous user put back this statement (but removed another piece of whimsy). Discuss here if there is any grounds for this. ProfDEH (talk) 07:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I have a black cat myself and she is quite a good cat. She's the best cat we've ever had! She is so cute! She watches over us like if she was our guardian angel! So I don't know why people are criticizing them when they are just like any other cat that roams around. I actually feel sorry for them because people are takeing them to a whole new level. So my advice to you is to give the Black cats a try and lay off the myths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.25.220.148 (talk) 06:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeh black cats are lovely, I have had four in the family over a span of thirty years. 62.30.54.79 (talk) 13:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Internet phemonena
Is a reference to Basement Cat welcome here? -Tajik24 (talk) 05:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I added Basement Cat to the See Also list. Folklore1 (talk) 14:07, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Famous black cats
The addition of this section cleans up the See also section sufficiently. Are there reasons for removing any of the currently existing See also links? WikkanWitch (talk) 14:54, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Casting call photo
The casting call photo has been on this article for nearly seven years. It was added with this edit on October 11, 2010. It was removed today with this edit. No edit summary was provided as to why this image was removed. Per Help:Edit summary: "It is good practice to fill in the edit summary field, or add to it in the case of section editing, as this helps others to understand the intention of your edit." Removing a long-standing image from an article certainly is something which should be explained. After a round of revision, the editor in question gave the rationale in this edit as "It's already on a few articles". How exactly is that an appropriate reason to remove this photo? Like the Industrial Workers logo and the Space Shuttle patch, I believe the casting call photo depicts the influence of black cats on the wider culture and is certainly of greater encyclopedic value than multiple photos which depict black cats surrounded by foliage.

Mtminchi08 (talk) 23:54, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

 * I'm for restoring the photo; it expresses the black cat culture. And if it comes to it, I'm for removing any of "my cat in the backyard" photos to make room.  --A D Monroe III (talk) 01:24, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree completely, no offence to anyone's cat there, they're all very cute, but they don't really say as much about black cats in culture as the casting call one does.★Trekker (talk) 02:34, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Would either one of you be so kind as to restore the photo in question, please. Thank you. Mtminchi08 (talk) 04:14, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Restored again. Please do not change again, per this WP:consensus.  If someone still wants a new pic, discuss here first, addressing the arguments above.  --A D Monroe III (talk) 17:17, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks to all. I'm the editor who uploaded the photo, long ago. It's one of my favorites ;-) --Pete Tillman (talk) 01:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed it's a good fit.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  12:18, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

With regards to "rusting" photograph...
I've tried to concisely explain myself via the limited-character edit-comment system, but I felt the issue might be better served via discussion.

Although I do have admitted bias in keeping my image up ('cause he's my cat and I LOVE HIM SO MUCH) - I am committed to the notion that the higher resolution of my image better conveys the concept of what "rusting" is. In frank comparison, I feel that the earlier image featured could easily be misconstrued for a wholly brown-coated/mottled cat - whereas the contrast between black & rust in my photo is much more pronounced (despite the striped shadows, which I imagine most would readily observe as the perfect geometric shade of venetian blinds and/or largely unlike any natural feline markings).

I don't wanna step on any toes but I know the *shit* out of rusting and finally got a good pic of it. HeffaFRIEND (talk) 02:46, 2 December 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by HeffaFRIEND (talk • contribs) 18:19, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * (Added the two pics about black-cat "rusting" (turning red-brownish under sunlight) being discussed here.)
 * Good to talk instead of just reverting, per WP:BRD.
 * It's not that the reader can't figure out that there is a striped shading pattern over the pic, it's that we shouldn't require them to do so. Pics are to present info, not a challenge.
 * If you can get a pic without shadow patterns to misconstrue, that would be best. Short of that, however, we should go with the less confusing pic, despite Loomis' otherwise obvious appeal.  --A D Monroe III(talk)  20:29, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the prompt reply! I also apologize for the breach of wikiquette - I'm new and, for now, don't plan on edits beyond simple typos or (what I feel are) improvements to universal Wikimedia assets. I agree with your assessment, that a less ambiguous photograph would serve best as consummate visual conveyance of the concept. That said - I am also committed to imaging a clearer photo of the subject & article involved within an amenable timeframe. Is there a reason we can't feature both photos as indicative of the rusting "phenomenon", at least on a temporary basis? -- HeffaFRIEND (talk) 02:46, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
 * All good-faith discussion is welcome -- nothing to apologize for. About using both pics, it seems we have the problem that black cats are very photogenic, and we're already at (or a little over) the reasonable limit of how many pics this article can hold; even on a fairly wide screen, the pics run longer than the article text.  But, as long as there's a commitment to get a pic better than both of these, I'm okay with waiting a bit.  --A D Monroe III(talk)  17:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Despite days of subtle coercion & careful solar projection, I haven't gotten this cat to rust as much as my original image. Winter in Davis, CA doesn't cast light on my bed like early seasons. I don't want to over-extend my welcome by reverting changes or extending my image's feature. But I do vow to a higher-res rusting photo! Whatever moderation comes is welcome. HeffaFRIEND (talk) 03:19, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I look forward to the improved picture, however long it takes; we'll go with the next-best original pic until then. Good luck with the CA sun and Loomis' heat-seeking inclinations.  --A D Monroe III(talk)  17:08, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Anarchist cat
Not sure you guys should use in this role, as I point out at c:File talk:Anarchist black cat.svg Jeblad (talk) 18:01, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm. There is no such discussion at c:File talk:Anarchist black cat.svg, and there is no local File talk:Anarchist black cat.svg. Our usage of the image in the article has the caption: "The black cat of the Industrial Workers of the World, also adopted as a symbol by anarcho-syndicalists" So, what is the alleged issue?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

odds

 * Black cats have been found to have lower odds of adoption in American shelters compared to other colors except brown, although black animals in general take more time to find homes.

Does this mean lower odds against adoption? Could stand to be reworded. — (scuse me while i stroke one of my little black friends) —Tamfang (talk) 04:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "Lower odds of adoption" is perfectly clear in English, while "lower odds against adoption" is confusing, basically a double-negative. "Lower odds against adoption" would mean that the odds adoption were themselves, i.e. that the odds  adoption were , and that clearly is not the meaning here (nor an easily parseable way to express that meaning if it were the correct one).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:48, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If your argument is "that cannot be the meaning because it is incompatible with what is obviously intended", well, the intent could be more obvious, for the benefit of readers without your mind-reading skill. I would suggest worse chances.  But then the "although" clause is problematic. —Tamfang (talk) 05:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia doesn't use value-laden emotive wording like "worse". "Lower chances" could work (and is what the article says now). But there was nothing wrong with the original wording; you're just having individual comprehension difficulties for some reason. "Lower odds of" is perfectly normal English . And none of this wording has any impact on the "although" clause at all.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:30, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Information Literacy and Scholarly Discourse
— Assignment last updated by Bmitch18 (talk) 04:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Cath Palug
As an example of "both the Gaels and Celtic Britons had traditions of feral and sometimes malevolent black cats." the example of Cath Paul is given. However, In "Pa gar yw y porthawr", the text noted, no mention is made of the cat being black. https://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/bbc31.html Also, there is no mention of the cat being black in the "three swineherds of Britain", pretty much the only other place it is mentioned in Welsh mythology. https://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/triads1.html#:~:text=Three%20Powerful%20Swineherds%20of%20the,Penndaran%20Dyfed%20his%20foster%2Dfather. This is something I have also had to edit in the Wikipedia edit for Cath Palug itself. I suggest removing both this example and the "and Celtic Britons" phrase unless this can be verified. 2A02:C7C:BCEB:3500:F473:617:3E6B:C68F (talk) 10:41, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

 * That should of course be "the example of Cath Palug", without the spelling 'correction' to English. 2A02:C7C:BCEB:3500:F473:617:3E6B:C68F (talk) 10:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Black cat


text:
Talk:Aotearoa

Pronunciation help
For those out of earshot, a pronunciation guide to "Aotearoa" would really help. Cheers, -Willmcw 21:44, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * I'll leave that to people who can handle the phonetic code characters better than I can, but if you use the vowel sounds and stresses from "Now say a law", you won't be very far from it. Mind you, that doesn't stop a lot of NZers from mangling it as "Ay-oh-tay-a-rower"! Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 02:43, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I've added an IPA guide and as per your request. -- FP 09:26, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * Awesome- wikithanks! -Willmcw 10:02, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

whoever that is saying it, they're pronouncing it wrong. Kripto 04:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the pronunciation in the audio file isn't great, not to mention the American accent! (although thanks to the attempter!) Perhaps we could have a native Te Reo speaker upload a file? 121.98.130.90 (talk) 05:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The IPA is almost certainly wrong too :-( or at least, it's not what's being pronounced in the audio file. Leon 11:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I've left a note at WP:NZNB. Grutness...wha?  22:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I've suggested the file be deleted because it is misleading (similar, surely, to removing unsourced content). Hopefully someone comes along and replaces it, or the Māori Language Commission (or similar) releases freely reusable audio files that can be imported into WP/Commons. — Hugh (talk) 03:37, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Follow-up: I've removed the file from the Aotearoa and New Zealand articles, and from the Wiktionary entry, and added the Factual accuracy template to the file's description. — Hugh (talk) 04:36, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The pronunciation is correct, it's just that the speaker has a New Zealand accent. See New Zealand English phonology for confirmation. Mr KEBAB (talk) 00:21, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Are you from New Zealand? The pronounciation of this Māori word in this file is not correct. If the presence of this audio file on this page and at New Zealand is merely to indicate how "English speakers" habitually mispronounce the word "Aotearoa", then it should exist in both cases only as a footnote to an explanation of the correct pronounciation (ideally given by a native speaker).

 * In any case,  should absolutely not be used on Wiktionary to indicate pronunciation. By keeping the file up and prominently visible, Wikipedia is wilfully contributing to the erosion of te reo Māori, and should be properly held to account for its actions. I am flabbergasted it's been up for 12 years. — Hugh (talk) 20:31, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

 * I don't actually have to be from New Zealand to discuss this. The article New Zealand English phonology is clear: the vowel in words such as square is generally not distinct from the vowel in words such as near and such pronunciations are the current New Zealand norm. The distinction between and  is meaningless for an average NZE speaker (as is the distinction between the vowel in bit and the second vowel in bottom) and even Help:IPA/English says that the phonetic outcome of both is typically something like  or something similar, much like the pronunciation you consider to be errorenous.

 * Are you perhaps a non-native speaker of NZE? Because I find this situation a bit confusing. People generally find it striking that New Zealanders call bears beers and Air New Zealand Ear New Zealand. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:06, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * For your information, I'm a native speaker of New Zealand English who hears te reo Māori spoken every day. Please listen to the pronounciation at maoridictionary.co.nz and then tell me the pronounciation given on this article is still correct. — Hugh (talk) 21:32, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * But that's different. We're not talking about Maori pronunciation but an English approximation thereof. As I said, many if not most speakers of New Zealand English are unable to distinguish from . The only other way they could approximate the Maori pronunciation is by saying, with pre-stress  as in tattoo, which is open-mid  in New Zealand English. It looks strange to me and I think that  is more natural as far as phonotactics are concerned. Does anyone say  or ? Longman Pronunciation Dictionary recommends the pronunciation with  (so not even  but , disyllabic!) by the way, and I'm aware of the massive amount of research Wells and his colleagues have done to write it.

 * Perhaps Maori English differs from General New Zealand English in that it does not merge with, but Maori English isn't the local standard (General White New Zealand English is). Currently, Wikipedia doesn't cover that variant of NZE at all and that should change, but I'm not sure whether we should have a separate audio file recorded by a Maori English speaker. Wiktionary is probably a better place for that. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:50, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * "We're not talking about Maori pronunciation but an English approximation thereof." Which is precisely why it should be only in a footnote. — Hugh (talk) 21:55, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * But why? The English pronunciation of Aotearoa is perfectly relevant to the topic. Mr KEBAB (talk) 06:24, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The "English pronunciation" of Paris doesn't appear to be relevant to that topic. "Aotearoa" is a Māori word. — Hugh (talk) 20:42, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Paris isn't the capital of a predominantly English-speaking country though. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:39, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * "Aotearoa" isn't a loan word. It's a Māori word. Te reo Māori is one of the official languages of Aotearoa. — Hugh (talk) 22:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It's absolutely a loan word when it's used in English. Even the Wiktionary entry you linked to says that and it cites three sources to support the claim. Mr KEBAB (talk) 23:02, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Nobody says "White New Zealand English". Nobody. In fact, most European New Zealanders completely reject the label 'white'. Are you even a Kiwi?Twistedpiper (talk) 12:31, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * We can definitely tell the difference between and, even if foreigners can't.  Nixinova   T   C   04:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * New Zealand English phonology says otherwise and I trust it more (as I should - see WP:OR). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 00:47, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

 * Frankly, there is nothing wrong with the English pronunciation. The article would benefit from a spoken Māori pronunciation.--Hazhk (talk) 21:14, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Fully agreed. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:50, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Tthere is lots wrong with it.  Nixinova   T   C  04:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Prove it with reputable sources. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 00:48, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * What? Prove what? That this is the wrong pronunciation? Because that's really obvious.  Nixinova   T   C  02:43, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * It really isn't - look above. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 02:47, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * This is not the correct Māori pronunciation, it's an attempted pronunciation, which is what many people use. That doesn't make it correct though.  Nixinova   T   C  02:50, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I've explained that it's an English approximation, not the Maori pronunciation. As an English approximation it's probably as close as an average New Zealander can get to the Maori pronunciation without using non-NZ-English vowels. Contrary to what you said, nowadays an average New Zealander does not distinguish between and, like the author of the recording we're talking about. I have probably a dozen of reputable sources to prove it. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 02:55, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The file is actually terrible and is not how the word is pronounced properly. It should not at all be used in an encyclopoedia as Wikipedia should use the actual pronunciation, not an English butchering. Any New Zealander would know this.  Nixinova   T   C  04:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input. There are other deliberate mispronunciations at Oamaru and Taieri; the problem stems from this request of FirstPrinciples. Thankfully his butchering of "Wanganui" and "te Aro" have been removed from those articles in the intervening 13 years. — Hugh (talk) 04:10, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I have reverted an edit that added ‘incorrectly’ to the audio pronunciation of the title. Reading the talk pages, the consensus was that this audio file does not reflect how it would sound spoken by a Maori-speaking person. However, the page already notes this is ‘commonly’ spoken by ‘English-speaking’ people. I have asked that they continue any discussion on the talk pages. AussieWikiDan (talk) 13:08, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Translation
I just wanted to point out that the first two theories of the derivation of the word involve the mountains of the southern island, but then the article goes on to say that the word was orignally used ony for the north island. That seems to invalidate those two theories then, doesnt it? Also, the third theory doesnt give any indication of how twilight relates to the word at all. Can anyone clarify?

--Someones life 17:16, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

It's interesting that James Cowan, working for the Depaprtment of Tourism and Health resorts, wrote  New Zealand, or, Ao-teä-roa (the long bright world): its wealth and resources, scenery, travel routes, spas, and sport in 1908. His use of the phrase 'The long bright world' as a translation seems to inicate that at least some had this concept in mind at the time.Kiwi pedant (talk) 23:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)kiwi pedant

 * The first two explanations, while they referred specifically to the South Island, could equally well have referred to mountains in thw North Island.I've expanded the explanations a little, in an attempt to clarify things. As to twilight, due to the spin of the earth and the tilt of its axis there is very little twilight in the tropics. Visitors to equatorial latitudes from temperate regions are often surprised by just how uickly the sky goes from light to dark. The opposite is true with travellers from tropical zones visiting higher latitudes - twilight seems very long, and in summer the length of daylight seems abnormal (the extreme case, of course, is the "midnight sun" of Scandinavia, northern Canada and the Antarctic). "Aotearoa" in this case, would translate directly as "long white cloud", but indirectly as "long light sky". Grutness...  wha?  06:56, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I seem to remember hearing recently that the whole Aotearoa "oral tradition" thing was invented in the 19th century and that Maori never had a particular name for the whole country before then. I think I heard it on National Radio, in which case it's probably from Michael King's History of NZ - I have a copy somewhere so I'll check sometime in the next few days.
 * Confirmed - I have made a small edit but I think the whole article needs a bit of a tidy-up. I'll do some work on it when time permits. Reference for the changes I have just made is Michael King, chapter 3, I don't have time to figure out how to do footnotes right now. --LesleyW 02:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Western cultures tend to have a fascination with analysing the meaning of words and names that genuinely oral cultures don't share. Along comes The Reverend Taylor or Sir George Grey or Elsdon Best or whoever and quizzes a poor chief as to the meaning of some obscure name. The chief doesn't know the answer - who should care about such stuff - but doesn't want to admit ignorance to the stranger. He invents some likely story and the pesky researcher goes away satisfied. The researcher writes up his story and publishes a book, and years later the chief's grandchildren read it. 'Well', they say, 'fancy that, so that's what that word means - it all makes sense - its so deep and meaningful'. Then it's fact AND tradition. That's what you call tradition feedback, and probably explains most of the explanations given in the article Kahuroa 09:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Re these popular explanations - mostly they are highly dubious, and based on the post-20th century meaning of Aotearoa as referring to the whole country. The twilight thing is South Island based, and Aotearoa referred to the North Island. Māori did not come from equatorial latitudes but probably from latitudes around 20 deg South ie, Rarotonga or the Society Islands. They did not go to the South Island first, where twilight is particularly long, but most probably to Northland around latitude 34/35, technically subtropical latitudes. Twilight in the northern North Island is nothing like that of the South Island. And they did not step out of a jet, but out of a waka that took weeks to arrive, and so the twilight increase would have been gradual over the course of the journey, ie, they would not have been suddenly surprised at the change. (Even presuming they arrived in summer when twilight is long). The snowy mountains thing is patently a South Island explanation too. Hard to imagine the N.I. mountains leading to the name, as they are often/usually bare of snow or difficult to see from the north. Kahuroa 19:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The twilight difference even in the North Island is quite noticeable between say Rarotonga and Auckland, and the day length also noticeably longer in summer and shorter in Winter. e.g. in late December the day length sunrise to sunset is 1 hour 20 minutes longer in Auckland than Rarotonga..that is certainly very obvious. I think the "long lightness" or "long brightening" is a very possible meaningful translation even for the North Island. Postulating Aotearoa to translate as "land of the long white cloud" is drawing quite a long bow by comparison, and smacks of a colonial interpretation. Kiwi pedant (talk) 11:57, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposed merger with New Zealand
Following other examples where an alternative name exists for a geo-political entity (such as Kanaky, Timor Lorosae, Kampuchea and Hellenic Republic), I propose that this article also be integrated into the state it refers to. Some country pages have a separate section about the usage and origin of their name(s), whether official or informal. --Big Adamsky 09:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I've commented in more depth elsewhere, but, as a glance at this page will tell you, the concepts are not identical. This page was deliberately separated from the New Zealand one for just that reason. I strongly oppose the idea of any merger. Grutness...wha?  14:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * And so do I. This article clearly stands on its own merits. Stongly oppose a merger. Moriori 19:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose - it may be appropriate in those other cases to do the merge/redirect thing, but that does not automatically mean it is a good reason to do it here. --LesleyW 10:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation
The IPA notation is correct, but the audio file at the top of the page sounds a bit like 'ow-tee-a-row-uh' to me, especially the last 'o' which should rhyme with 'paw'. It would be nice to have the Māori pronunciation. Kahuroa 21:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Federation of Tribal Chiefs'
A group claiming sovereignty of Aotearoa would dispute the claim that Aotearoa is a synonym for New Zealand —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.255.62.134 (talk) 09:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

As official name of the country?
Is Aoteoroa also an official alternate name for the country? It is not clear in the description. The first page of a NZ passport gives the country's name as NEW ZEALAND. AOTEOROA with both given equal weight and prominence. --62.234.176.6 (talk) 08:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

 * Aotearoa is the Maori name for New Zealand, and Maori is an official language of New Zealand, so in that sense it is official. Government agencies typically have a Maori name as well as an English one, and both are usually displayed on official stationery etc. The passport situation seems similar. I'm not convinced that this needs to be covered in this article, however. --Avenue (talk) 19:50, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not yet an offical name. —Hugh (talk) 01:03, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but I don't think we can take the word of a blog published back on 30 May 2013. Moriori (talk) 01:11, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Could anyone translate "Oceanian Republic of Aotearoa" and "Republic of Aotearoa" into Māori?--Coatbridge Town FC (talk) 10:22, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Reference missing
Re the Māori newspaper illustrating the use of Aotearoa for the North Island, here's the proper reference. Present reference doesn't cover it. Piwaiwaka (talk) 17:27, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect pronunciation
[I'll start a new section here so novice users can contribute more easily.]

Recent edits would suggest that a number of users, myself included, would evidently like for the statement in the first paragraph regarding common pronunciation to be qualified by a word such as "incorrectly", or to modify "pronounced" to read "mispronounced". Since it is a fact that the audio of the pronunciation in question represents common mispronunciation, why is there objection to modifying this sentence? Saying that the audio represents "common pronunciation" isn't the whole truth. — Hugh (talk) 20:22, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * It's a pity to see that you're ignoring our last discussion in which I explained that not only is the pronunciation correct, it's also pretty much the only way New Zealanders can anglicize it. I suggest that you re-read our previous discussion and read New Zealand English phonology. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 00:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Describing the way that a word is pronounced in English as "incorrect" or a "mispronunciation" would be an inappropriate value judgment, and sounds like a non-neutral POV. English has no 'central language authority'.  Remember also that although this page describes a Maori word, it is a page in the English-language Wikipedia.  So including a common English-language pronunciation (and noting it as such) seems appropriate - just don't add the value judgment.  Of course, we should also include an approved Maori-language pronunciation as well, given the word's origin. Ross Finlayson (talk) 03:12, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The intro sucked. It is not true that that is how it is "pronounced by English speakers". Some yes, and by some Maori too. But not all as it suggested.. I've amended it to make the point. Moriori (talk) 03:23, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * If it were in fact a mispronunciation then there would be little value in including it, or linking to the file. Changing "pronounced" to "misprounced" is disruptive behaviour (WP:POINT); it seems that if you can't have your way (i.e. removing the pronunciation) then you want to subvert the text! I think that the audio file records a standard English pronunciation. I am sure all editors would welcome a recording of the ("correct") Te Reo pronunciation.--Hazhk (talk) 03:20, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I notice just now that we do have a Maori-language pronunciation; it's included - as an external link - in the "Etymology" section. Why not, for consistency, move this pronunciation audio file earlier, and mention it first, ahead of the 'common English-language' pronunciation? Ross Finlayson (talk) 03:26, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I added the external link. It wouldn't be proper to move it inline though.--Hazhk (talk) 03:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm currently communicating with Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Māori to help them with adding a free culture license to those audio files so they can be used on Wikipedia, but I'm a few continents away. They're definitely open to it, but the process is pretty convoluted. If anyone in NZ wants to give them more hands on help to get the files uploaded/licensed, let me/let them know! Also if any native Māori speakers want to do an upload, please do! Mayawagon (talk) 20:11, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd love to help out if I can. Please email me. —Hugh (talk) 23:30, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 24 April 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus against any move. (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist|wear a mask 14:32, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Aotearoa → Aotearoa (name) – most searches for "Aotearoa" refer to "New Zealand", so we should move this page to "Aotearoa (name) and redirect from alternative language to New Zealand Aotearoa → Aotearoa (place name) and move Aotearoa (disambiguation) to Aotearoa instead CityOfSails2 (talk) 03:42, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose - by WP:REFERS "Aotearoa" is a country not a name. Tayste (edits) 03:47, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - I mean that most people who search "Aotearoa" want to go to New Zealand rather than this page.CityOfSails2 (talk) 03:56, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * "Aotearoa" is a name, Aotearoa is a country. This article is an etymological article, compare Britain (place name). Paradoctor (talk)
 * I want to redirect "Aotearoa" to "New Zealand".CityOfSails2 (talk) 03:56, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * What is your evidence that people usually come to this article when they mean to come to the country article? I'm sure it happens occasionally, but the link to New Zealand is in the first sentence, so they learn something and are not much inconvenienced. If the article was moved, then those who want the article on Aotearoa would be redirected to New Zealand, and would need to find a link to the new title from there. A hatnote would help, but New Zealand is a long article with very many links, and I suspect some people would not immediately find the link. In short, Oppose.- gadfium 05:22, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Does that mean you are changing your move request from "Aotearoa → Aotearoa (name)" to "Aotearoa → New Zealand"? Paradoctor (talk) 10:48, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * What are your feelings now that the proposal has changed? On the dab page, the etymological article would be in the Top 2. Paradoctor (talk) 08:29, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Changing to a disambiguation page just means no one gets the page they wanted. The existing disambiguation page is pretty clear that the current page is the primary meaning. I still can't see that people who want to find out about New Zealand are likely to end up on this page as their starting point, so none of the proposals that the nominator has put forward for this page make sense to me.- gadfium 09:02, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * "no one gets the page they wanted" That's hyperbole. The point is to reduce the number of steps a reader has to perform to get to where they want, on average. With ambiguous terms, there is always a trade-off involved.
 * "the current page is the primary" As I argued below, we don't know that.
 * "people who want to find out about New Zealand" We are not talking about them. We are talking about people who want to find out about "Aotearoa". For which New Zealand is only one meaning. Paradoctor (talk) 09:49, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Yeah nah. That argument leaves me unconvinced.  Schwede 66  09:40, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Why? Does that still apply after the change of objective? Paradoctor (talk) 02:24, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. I'm still opposed. There's nothing wrong with the current setup.  Schwede 66  00:14, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok. Then this applies here, too. Paradoctor (talk) 08:00, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Support Retarget to Aotearoa (place name). The disambiguator "(name)" is ambiguous, it could also mean a surname, as in France (name).
 * As regards WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the numbers would normally indicate leaving things as is. The problem with that is that the anthem article has comparable pageviews. We can't tell how many views of Aotearoa were actually intended for the song, or any of the other topics with the same name. The Māori anthem has been in wide use for a generation now, so we can't dismiss offhand the possibility that, with proper disambiguation, the etymological page will no longer be "much more likely than any other single topic" what people want to see. When in doubt: disambiguate, therefore: retarget. We can revisit the topic in a year or so, when traffic has reached its new equilibrium. Paradoctor (talk) 10:34, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. Move target changed CityOfSails2 (talk) 15:01, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - I mean the current "Aotearoa" article will be located at "Aotearoa (place name)", a redirect to "New Zealand" will be located at "Aotearoa", a hatnote pointing to "Aotearoa (place name)" will be located at the top of "New Zealand"CityOfSails2 (talk) 14:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * As I said above, we have no clear evidence that "New Zealand" is to be what readers are looking for. With the data we have, it could be that a sizable part of the anthem's pageviews should be credited to Aotearoa (anthem). In that case, there is no clear primary topic, and the dab page should be at Arotearoa. Paradoctor (talk) 15:49, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Therefore "Aotearoa" should be a disambiguation page. CityOfSails2 (talk) 02:07, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose. I agree with gadfium's comments and am unconvinced of the merits of the proposal. A downside of the proposal is the adding of an additional hatnote to New Zealand (hatnotes, when needed, are a necessary evil, in my opinion). I'm now also confused about whether CityOfSails2 wants "Aotearoa" to be a redirect to "New Zealand" or a disambiguation page. Nurg (talk) 03:34, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment "Aotearoa" will be a disambig page. CityOfSails2 (talk) 06:02, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * A rationale offered earlier was that most people who search "Aotearoa" want to go to New Zealand and so "Aotearoa" should redirect to "New Zealand". I wasn't convinced about the merits of that proposal and didn't support it, but at least I understood the proposal and rationale. Now the proposal includes making "Aotearoa" a disambig page. I don't understand how that would reduce the number of steps or make it any easier for people to get to New Zealand. Nurg (talk) 10:24, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * So, no reply to my last sentence - no explanation of how a dab page would reduce the number of steps or make it any easier for people to get to New Zealand. Nurg (talk) 04:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I was kinda hoping you'd notice that I answered your request ~34 minutes before you made it: special:diff/953029882 Paradoctor (talk) 05:40, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Anyone going to Aotearoa now, who really wants New Zealand, finds out what Aotearoa is and gets a link to New Zealand in the first sentence. Putting the disambig page at "Aotearoa" would not reduce the number of steps or make it any easier. Nurg (talk) 10:21, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, it will.
 * Before: "Aotearoa (commonly pronounced by English speakers as ) is the Māori name for New Zealand."
 * After: "Aotearoa is the Māori name for New Zealand."
 * Less text to skip.
 * You might argue that that is not an improvement. Ok. But how is "it will not make it harder" an argument against the move? Especially when it will reduce the number of steps for those looking for any of the other meanings of "Aotearoa". Paradoctor (talk) 11:56, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi Paradoctor. "Less text to skip" is good, but is a very minor factor in this case. The "other meanings" point brings us to the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC issue, which gadfium mentioned and you disagreed with him. I think that Aotearoa (the Māori name for New Zealand) is the primary topic, and that by a country mile. You've suggested that one of the other topics might be just as highly sought, mentioning specifically the anthem article. If I read you right, you've suggested that "it could be that a sizable part of the anthem's [the article titled God Defend New Zealand] pageviews should be credited to [the redirect] ". I consider it highly unlikely that people will be seeking "God Defend New Zealand" by the anthem's Māori name anywhere near as often as they will be seeking the article about the Māori name for New Zealand. The same goes for all the other topics. Nurg (talk) 00:59, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "a very minor factor" The point here is that, however you break it, the move will not worsen path length for any of the meanings, and improve it for most.
 * "I consider it highly unlikely" Do you have any additional data? Because what we have so far does not support this claim. It doesn't contradict your theory, sure. But we don't know. Compare the recent discussion at Talk:MBE, where, in a similar situation, it was decided make the move, and to use special purpose redirects to gather data for later review. As I said above, "When in doubt: disambiguate, therefore: retarget. We can revisit the topic" when we have load-bearing data. Paradoctor (talk) 02:24, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the value of empirical data, but I have none, unfortunately. I give no weight to your data about pageviews of God Defend New Zealand. As far as data goes, we agree that we don't know. I am against moving the page as a data-gathering exercise. If there was a no-impact way to do the science, that would be great. My opinion that it is "highly unlikely" is based on my personal knowledge of the use of the word "Aotearoa" in the world. I don't think I will try to prove it and I will understand if you consider it subjective and wish to disregard it. I have given a fair chance to having my mind changed. I understand your opinion and we disagree. I confirm that I still oppose the proposal. Nurg (talk) 04:53, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:PTOPIC: (my emphasis) In other words, it needs to be shown that a topic is primary. If not, we do not randomly assign a primary topic. "I believe so" does not constitute identification.
 * "based on my personal" WP:NWCFTM applies here:
 * "moving the page as a data-gathering exercise" It's not. The guideline tells us that, lacking positive evidence that there is a primary topic, we disambiguate. The data-gathering part is about finding out whether there actually is a primary topic. I'm not sure I understand your objection here.
 * "you consider it subjective and wish to disregard it" It's not me, it is policy: And it's not that I "consider" your opinion subjective, you yourself stated it clearly: "based on my personal". Paradoctor (talk) 10:42, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Support disambig page: With regards to the original premise - I'm unconvinced that people would search for "Aotearoa" (instead of the more familiar English name) if their intention was to reach the article about New Zealand. I would guess that people searching for "Aotearoa" are looking up an unfamiliar name, or wanting to read about the origins of the name. That's my reasoning, but it's only an opinion. We don't know for sure what readers are looking for. So, I think turning the page name into a disambig page (and also moving the article to Aotearoa (place name)) seems like a reasonable compromise. It does, however, pose the small problem that multiple article links will need to be amended. --Hazhk (talk) 11:00, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * "multiple article links will need to be amended" Only about 220 articles, I can do that in a few hours. There is probably even some bot that can be requested to do the task. Paradoctor (talk) 11:28, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. I'm also happy to help with changing some links. Using a bot is a good suggestion. --Hazhk (talk) 12:12, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Possibly move the DAB to the base name otherwise oppose per Gadfium.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:51, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * If the dab page is moved, where should the article go, if not to "(place name)"? Paradoctor (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose. Fine as it is. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:30, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Best I can tell: WP:LIKE. Paradoctor (talk) 17:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * No, no need to move because this is a solution seeking a problem. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:24, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTVOTE: You have not addressed the arguments raised in favor. Paradoctor (talk) 17:18, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose. Compare Lloegyr (and Logres), Cathay, New Amsterdam, Dahomey (and Republic of Dahomey), Francia, etc. It is normal for a significant variant name to have its own article. As long as there's a worthwhile article to the name, keep it as is. — the Man in Question (in question)  20:15, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Errm, this is a move discussion. Nobody wants to delete anything. Paradoctor (talk) 20:27, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes… Who said anything about deleting? I'm saying keep it where it is. — the Man in Question (in question)  01:45, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Who said anything about deleting?" Grammar: The "it" in "keep it" refers to the article, not its placement, but its placement is what we're discussing, not the article itself. "Keep it where it is" would have been clear.
 * Ok, now that that is settled: I don't understand your argument for not moving. Lloegyr (disambiguation) and Dahomey (disambiguation) do not even exist, so why do you mention them? How do they relate to the arguments in support raised above? Paradoctor (talk) 08:16, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose. To me, the page looks just fine the way it is.  I haven't seen a convincing argument for the proposed change. Rangatira80 (talk) 10:22, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * As I said above. Paradoctor (talk) 11:04, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Pronunciation 2020
The pronounciation file is a bit old-fashioned. It reflects how some Pākehā speakers used to pronounce it, but I haven't heard anyone use this pronunciation in over a decade. You won't be able to find any examples of this pronounciation in national media. Nowadays most New Zealand English speakers pronounce it as in the external link. I've read the discussion above, but also notice that some of the participants have been banned from Wikipedia for abusing sock puppets. I propose the external pronounciation is moved to the top, and the old-fashioned pronounciation is removed. -- haminoon  ( talk ) 20:34, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This is definitely a tricky one. The external translation may not be free usage to be cleared. However, if the audio file currently used is not a reflection of how the majority of English-speaking New Zealander say the word then it should be removed. AussieWikiDan (talk) 08:26, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That's correct that the external link is copyright. It's not ideal, but it would be an improvement to move the "external audio" up to the top of the page. -- haminoon  ( talk ) 20:18, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If there has indeed been a shift in English speakers' pronunciation of the word, then that's something very well worth documenting in the article. But of course we can't do so unless there are reliable sources available. Nardog (talk) 09:07, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That goes both ways. The pronounciation currently on the page isn't referenced. However there are thousands of examples online of the pronounciation in the external link being used in national media. For example . --  haminoon  ( talk ) 20:18, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I think we should consider it being removed. Many similar pages do not have an audio file anyway. AussieWikiDan (talk) 03:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Nu Tirani
The article says in a couple of places without citation that Nu Tirani means "new terrain". It seems much more likely it's just a transliteration of "New Zealand" because how else works New Zealand be transliterated? Does anyone know if there is any support for Nu Tirani meaning new terrain? Schnackal (talk) 14:02, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, typo: how else *would* New Zealand be transliterated? Schnackal (talk) 14:03, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * That looks like utter nonsense to me. I'll remove it. -- haminoon  ( talk ) 06:31, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

English pronunciation, again
The page was protected because of vandalism related to the English pronunciation. Now that protection has ended users are removing the long-standing and sourced English pronunciation while claiming it is "incorrect", "offensive', and a "mispronunciation". Am I wrong in thinking that the above threads show a consensus to keep the English pronunciation? Meters (talk) 21:51, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The issue does not seem to be that there is a different English pronunciation that is more correct than the one we describe so much as an intent to completely remove any English pronunciation in favour of the Māori pronunciation. Meters (talk) 21:56, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Quite happy with current layout, however if someone comes along with reliable references (two or more) explicably saying different, happy for the conversation. Otherwise the suggested changes are original research/synthesis. Dushan Jugum (talk) 22:12, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean, the current reference doesn't really support the material. It doesn't support the previous claim; all the reference is is a pronunciation dictionary that says "Aotearoa ,a: au ti[:] à 'rau a" . Not sure thats the best source anyway.  Nixinova   T   C   23:18, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know how it's pronounced. My main concern is that the intent of the recent edits appears to be to completely remove any English pronunciation, without any attempt to correct it. What I am seeing is a POV position that the Māori pronunciation is the only pronunciation that should be mentioned. Meters (talk) 23:25, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * That is an OCRed text of a pirated copy of a different edition of the cited source. What the source actually gives is "", which translates to in our WP:DIAPHONEMIC scheme set out in Help:IPA/English.
 * How the word is commonly pronounced by English speakers is definitely a relevant piece of information to include in our English encyclopedia. It is up to each reader if they want to imitate it. If there are reliable sources that show that someone reputable or a large number of people consider it incorrect, recommend another pronunciation, etc., that will also be relevant. And if a reliable source shows there is a more or equally common English pronunciation, we may replace or augment the current one. Otherwise there's just no reason to remove the sourced statement. Nardog (talk) 00:17, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I was born in Aotearoa and still live here. My ancestry is entirely European in origin, but I have been learning Te Reo Māori on and off since the mid-90s (including some uni level study). I mention this for context; I am a) a direct observer of the pronunciation of Māori words in Aotearoa, and b) the closest to being capable of a NPOV on this that you're likely to find on WP.
 * The confusion here seems to be caused by the fact that there are two commons pronunciations. The anglicized one used in the audio file under discussion, and the correct pronunciation of the original Māori word, which everyone here seems to agree is *not* represented that audio file.
 * But although both have been in common use, there's a broad consensus among government officials and news media presenters on using the original pronunciation for place names from Te Reo Māori. As a reference, here's an article from Radio NZ, the public broadcaster. I think it's fair to say the anglicized pronunciation of Aotearoa is declining, as people either follow their lead, or insist on calling the country New Zealand and refuse to say Aotearoa at all. This has become politically polarising in recent years, and this in itself is probably worth a mention on the page. --Danylstrype (talk) 04:10, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * What you fail to realise is that the Maaori pronunciation is not the _correct_ (only) pronunciation and is highly offensive to many non-Maaori citizens of New Zealand.
 * In New Zealand common English usage is is "our-tea-a-rower" (or "Aa-otea-a-rower"). Now if we were taking Maaori language courses or it's usage in Maaori songs or stories then, yes, the Maaori pronunciation is only version.
 * But there are majority of non-Maaori New Zealand born citizens who are fed up and rightfully offended by people trying to destroy or bury their native (aka "Kiwi") language, and to bully and coercion authorities and information sources into "indigenous-wash" the "Kiwi" culture out of existence. A very indigenous culture, only really found in a certain time and place in the world. 122.252.155.69 (talk) 20:58, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @122.252.155.69 It sounds like you get offended too easily. I've never met someone who is offended by hearing a non-English pronunciation. The best thing to support your case is to provide a source. —Panamitsu (talk) 21:22, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Nukuroa
Maori did have a name for New Zealand as a whole, Nukuroa (meaning Father Land) was applied to the land in older times I believe 121.98.239.99 (talk) 04:45, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source?- gadfium 05:29, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-SmiHawa-t1-body-d3-d6.html#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20oldest%20names,therefore%2C%20it%20is%20very%20ancient. Joshville (talk) 23:36, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Israeli flag??
When hovering over links to this entry (e.g. on the pages on New Zealand or Jacinda Ardern) the Isreali flag is shown. Is this a fluke in some algorithm or outright vandalism? 78.50.88.90 (talk) 10:54, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

 * Vandalism. It's been reverted, please be patient until the cache expires. Nardog (talk) 11:01, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Aotearoa


text:
Talk:Edmund Blackadder

Dating question
Are we quite sure about the date of The King's Birthday? As I recall, there's a quip about Blackadder being a Privy Councillor, but "soon to be a privy attendant if Cromwell has his way", which puts it *before* the Civil War... Daibhid C, 22:43 13 April 2005 (UTC)

Removed sentence from list of Blackadders
(It is possible that Captain the Lord Blackadder from The Army Years is the same modern day Lord Blackadder seen in 'Back and Forth, although no mention of military rank is made there.)''

Removed this, as it is virtually impossible. The Army Years is set in WWI, probably 1917, while Back and Forth is set in 2000, thus making it more likely that Blackadder from Back and Forth is his grandson. Bjelleklang -  talk 11:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Template
I strongly suggest the use of a picture of one of the more recognisable blackadder incarnations on the Edmund Blackadder template. While I appreciate the original Blackadder is held in high regard by cretain users on wikipedia, the first series is not highly thought of in general public circles. Also, the first blackadder does not represent the more familiar characteristics of the Blackadders (just look at his stupid face compared to the more condecending, refined look of the other 3). I personally would champion Blackadder II who seems the most recognisable. His image is used in the main wikipedia article and was the primary icon used in the Greatest Sitcom series.--Crestville 19:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Prince Edmund.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:BA2adder.jpg
The image Image:BA2adder.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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A note on historicity
It says the name 'Blackadder' is Scottish in origin. While in the first serial 'Black Adder' is a title/ nickname, Edmund was in fact revealed in S1E2 to be the illegitimate son of a Scottish nobleman, with whom the Queen (Richard IV's wife) had had an affair in her youth. Should be added.--87.255.89.160 (talk) 19:02, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Edmund Blackadder


text:
Kontula, Helsinki

Kontula (Gårdsbacka) is a quarter of Helsinki, Finland, part of the Mellunkylä neighbourhood. Kontula was built mostly in the 1960s and 1970s when more housing was required in Helsinki. Many people from the city centre moved to Kontula; due to its little higher than average concentration of government tenant housing complexes, immigrant and refugee population it is regarded as an average eastern Helsinki suburb.

Kontula has generally been considered one of the most notorious suburbs in East Helsinki largely due to prevailing incidents of violence and drug dealing,     the latter of which local youths actively run a drug trade near the shopping area and the metro station. Despite its mixed reputation, it might also be the clue to its attractiveness, because Kontula pops up in many movies, books, and songs.

The metro was expanded to Kontula in 1986, which made the area easy to reach. The Kontula Metro Station is daily used by 20,000 people.

In 2006, the Finnish Local Heritage Foundation picked Kontula as the Borough of the Year in Finland.

Kontulan Ostoskeskus, the mall
Kontula offers services to its inhabitants. There are various grocery stores, banks, pharmacies and over 20 shops and around 20 bars, Kontulan Ostoskeskus (The Shopping Centre or the mall) opened in 1967. The Shopping Centre also includes the health centre, a library, a swimming pool, gym, and a skateboard hall. There are also food production facilities in the area, for example, the famed ice cream house Kolme kaveria ('Three friends').

Mikaelinkirkko
The church representing modernist church architecture, St. Michael's Church (Mikaelinkirkko), was consecrated on May 7, 1988. In 1980, the Helsinki Parish Association announced an architectural competition for the new church, which was attended by 138 architects. Construction was due to begin as early as 1984, but because the winning draftsman was atheist, the plan had to be abandoned, and the new plan took the second place work of competition on which the current church was based.

title: Kontula, Helsinki


text: Category:African mythology

title: Category:African mythology