text:
Talk:Thunder Bay

 * To Do:

Climate data
Source for climate data: Link —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.211.25.204 (talk • contribs)
 * The reason I posted the cities link is because right on it it points to environment canada's link. Which meant you didn't have to post such a long link. --Djsasso 19:52, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Population
Where are the 2004 figures from? they do not correspond with the Statistics Canada site which estimates CMA as 127, 100 for 2004.--BrentS 15:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

One other population note: the user who repeatedly conflates the population of the city itself (109K) with the population of the Census Metropolitan Area (121K) is kindly asked to stop doing so; they are not the same thing and Wikipedia cannot pretend they are. Thunder Bay does not have a population of 121,000 unless you pretend that Shuniah, Neebing and Oliver/Paipoonge don't exist. The CMA can be, and is, noted in the article, but the article must acknowledge that there is a difference between a city and a CMA. Bearcat 02:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Sheamus Elvish
Was sheamus elvish really some sort of pimp and guitarist or did someone just mess with this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.239.250 (talk • contribs)

 * The latter. Bearcat 15:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

What was Rowdy Roddy Piper's supposed connection to Thunder Bay? It is not referenced on his page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.109.243.169 (talk • contribs)
 * He lived in the city for a time. When he was a teenager I believe. User:Canuckman55

WWII target
Was Thunder Bay a WWII target? I heard it was, which seems logical, as it was a major trading spot between Canada and the US, as well as the grain capital in the world. Anyone know if this is true?--Richard 01:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC) 8
 * Thunder Bay was not a major trading spot between Canada and the US. It exported forest products to the U.S., that is all. Ask yourself what possible strategic interest Germany, Italy or Japan might have had in attacking Thunder Bay in the middle of the continent. Its only product of international importance was grain, and that could easily have been diverted to other ports. In any event it was much easier for Germany and Japan to attack shipping convoys closer to home on the North Atlantic and Pacific. However, it did produce airplanes at the Canadian Car and Foundry Company plant, so it is possible the Luftwaffe might have given momentary thought to it as a target, but how easy would it have been to get to the middle of the continent without being detected?. This would take work in German archives to determine if true. Or check some of the official government histories of the Canadian air force to see if there is any mention of German offensive plans against Canada. The Nazi Navy was able to target ships in the Gulf of St Lawrence and the lower St Lawrence with their submarines. Once the British had radar, the Luftwaffe was in trouble. BrentS 02:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I heard that during the cold war, there was a threat of Russian nukes? Vidioman 11:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Pictures
no pictures of Fort William?

(If you mean the end of town) I don't live in Fort William, and having just a bike it was difficult to go there often. I have some pictures of buildings downtown though. You can add your own if you like.

(If you mean the historical park) I don't have any of those as I haven't been there in years. You can add your own if you like.

Vidioman 02:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Richard Barney
If anyone can provide a source that proves who Richard Barney is, why he is worth of being listed, please do so. Thanks. Vidioman 02:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's definitely vandalism. --Djsasso 02:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Notables
I made a "list of people from Thunder Bay" article, so notables should be trimmed down to people who are really notable. We have 60 right now (tied with Calgary. :)) and 100 on the main article; I'd say bring it down to around 40? Vidioman 02:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

GA review
I have placed the review on hold as these need fixing: Let me know when these are fixed or if you disagree with any. Epbr123 13:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) "referendum held on June 23rd, 1969" - "1969" should be wikilinked. Dates that have the day, month & year or have the day & month should be linked. There are years in the Geography, Sports and Economy sections which need to be unlinked.
 * 2) "is immense - about 22.5 kilometres" — the 'minus dash' after "immense" should be replaced by an 'em dash'. Read Dash for the correct use of dashes. There may be other dashes in the article which need fixing.
 * 3) The use of lists should be minimised in non-list articles. The lists in the Culture, Print Media and Post-Secondary Institutions sections could be replaced by prose.
 * 4) It might be better to give the Broadcast Media list its own article.
 * 5) The number of people in the Notables section could be reduced and the list replaced by prose.
 * 6) Each of he notables need an inline citation. The section should maybe be renamed Notable residents.
 * 7) The external links should be removed from the Online News section. External links only belong in the External links section.
 * 8) Surrounding Municipalities should be a subsection of Geography.
 * 9) Every fact in the article needs to be able to be verified by readers. Most paragraphs in the article will need at least one inline citation.

 * I wikilinked 1969, and checked for other dates. I'll double check. ; I changed the - to an —, couldn't find any others but I will double check that also ; converted the lists in culture, print media and Post Secondary Institutions to prose ; I can't decide on a separate article for media, I don't think it is important enough but if you feel the article will be better with one than I'll agree with your decision. I reduced the number of notables listed and changed the list to prose ; I moved the media external links to the proper section and removed a few others, I'll double check for more ; I moved surrounding municipalities to geography but wasn't sure if it should get a header or now (I think it would look awkward with one; most articles have the surround municipalities chart near the bottom of the article) ; I will go through pages I have bookmarked and add sources where possible. Vidioman 17:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent work so far. Its probably best to leave the Broadcast Media list as it is for the moment. Ideally, there should be an article on the broadcast media in Ontario which this article could link to. Epbr123 18:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The standard practice for Canadian locations has been that each province has a list of all of its television stations and a list of all of its radio stations, while each city has either a separate media list or a media section in its main article grouping media that are specific to that city. What you're suggesting here would be unworkable, as a single Ontario-wide media article would be far too long to be either useful or manageable. The broadcasting system here isn't like the system you know in Great Britain; 21st century media consolidation notwithstanding, the historic structure of North American broadcasting is much more independent and locally-oriented and not so easily merged into province-wide articles. (And, for that matter, Thunder Bay is a bit unusual even in the context of media consolidation — it's the only major Canadian city left where it's still the norm for media to be owned locally rather than by national chains.) Bearcat 02:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant that the list of media in Ontario could be subdivided by city, as in List of schools in Kent. Its a way of removing lists from city articles. Epbr123 08:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * While it's not universal, it is becoming increasingly common for cities' media lists to be spun off into a separate article from the main city article. See Category:Lists of media by city. Bearcat 02:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I've had to fail the article, as it has been 11 days since the review and there is still a shortage of inline citations. Feel free to renominate once these are fixed. Epbr123 22:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Netnewsledger worthy of mention?
Someone added an internet subsection to the media section, with a brief description and external hyperlink to a single source, netnewsledger.com. "Online media continues to evolve in Thunder Bay. Net Newsledger.com offers seven day a week news updates along with political coverage that includes both Leader's Ledgers and Candidates Ledgers." The site's blog format mixes editorials with unattributed press releases from Canada NewsWire, the Ontario government and other sources (in the sample I checked). There are also answers and submissions from politicans. It doesn't show evidence of having any reporters, writers or editors, except for someone identified as the "News Director." It's a commercial site, and its mention here feels like a publicity grab and possible attempt to boost search engine standings. I don't think its mention is appropriate here, and am removing it, pending discussion. -Agyle 20:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

 * thoughts, if NNL is a commercial site, isn't TBTV, CKPR and all the other media also commercial sites? Net Newsledger, over the past year, has had 130,000 individual visitors, who have read over six and a half million pages on the site. Further, on weekends, NNL is the only online media source in Thunder Bay which updates the news and events going on. If one site is removed because it is "commercial" then should not ALL commercial sites be removed? -- 24.109.254.203 (unsigned)
 * No they would not be in the same classification. They are reputable news organizations where this particular site does not have any references or track record. That is where the difference is. It's quite obviously a spam link. --Djsasso 16:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

 * NNL has been in operation for a year. Participating writers include Thunder Bay Mayor Peterson, Councillors Frank Pullia, MPs Ken Boshcoff, and Joe Comuzzi, MPPs Bill Mauro and Michael Gravelle. As well, writing on Northern Ontario issues have been Howard Hampton the leader of the NDP, John Tory the leader of the PCS as well as Stephane Dion and Stephen Harper. During last year's civic election campaign, NNL was also the only local site offering online polling. Those polls had an interesting accuracy, as 80% of the polls were accurate. -- NNL is also the only local media which offers Candidate Ledgers, and an ask the candidate feature. This offers a voice to all the voters/readers to have their questions answered by candidates. What defines a track record? Or is that a personal decision? -- 24.109.218.67
 * Basically blog sites (or ledgers) in general have been considered not link worthy on Wikipedia as a whole because Wikipedia is not a link collection site. As for track record basically being accredited media is probably the requirement which I am pretty sure NNL is not. --Djsasso 14:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The Toronto page doesn't list blogs in it's external links. (The List of Toronto media page has a section for them). The Ottawa page doesn't, nor does List of Ottawa media. I don't see why the Thunder Bay main page should include it. I check NNL almost every day, but I cannot deny that the site has it's biases and flaws. Besides that, what good reason is there for the Chronicle Journal, TBSource or IndyMedia to be on there? Or even Thunder Bay Ontario Information, TBShows, the TBRHSC page (TBRHSC has it's own page, btw), or the library (TBPL also has an article), or the Airport Athority? (YQT has it's own page, as well) I originally put some of them there to 'pad' the article, but it's far from needing padding at this point. Only the official city websites, and maybe the chamber of commerce website (It could go into Economy of Thunder Bay, should that article ever need to be made) actually need to be here, the rest of the links are just 'bonus'. Vidioman 11:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

 * So then by that definition, the Chronicle Journal, which is a journal, or the Thunder Bay Source which claims to be a "source" should not be listed either? A blog is usually defined by most as a single person's opinion. Is Net Newsledger a blog? Nope. If opinions remove a site from consideration then the Thunder Bay Source, and Chronicle Journal sites which offer editorial opinions should be removed? If you can name a single source media which is perfect, and doesn't have bias or flaws, maybe you should create a page specfic to that topic. When looking at what potential visitors to Thunder Bay might want, or need in visiting the Wikipedia site, I would suggest more is better than less.::: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

 * «So then by that definition, the Chronicle Journal, which is a journal, or the Thunder Bay Source which claims to be a "source" should not be listed either?»

They aren't listed.

 * «A blog is usually defined by most as a single person's opinion. Is Net Newsledger a blog? Nope. If opinions remove a site from consideration then the Thunder Bay Source, and Chronicle Journal sites which offer editorial opinions should be removed? If you can name a single source media which is perfect, and doesn't have bias or flaws, maybe you should create a page specfic to that topic. When looking at what potential visitors to Thunder Bay might want, or need in visiting the Wikipedia site, I would suggest more is better than less.»

Wikipedia is not a link farm. In fact, there is actually an article that states just that. TBSource has been removed. TBShows has been removed. The Chronicle-Journal has been removed. The only websites that are included—the only websites that need to be included—are the city's official website, the city's official tourism website, the website of the chamber of commerce and the website of the airport (which technically is also unnecessary).

From WikiProject Cities/Guideline -

 * A link to some of the official websites should be provided here, such as the official city government, the chamber of commerce, and the convention & visitors bureau. Providing links to every commercial, educational, or other entity within the city is not appropriate for this section. Information about such entities should actually be written into the article, with links to wikipedia articles on notable entities. Remember, Wikipedia is not a linkfarm, and excessive lists of links on articles will generally be removed.

 * Additional guidelines on external links can be found at WP:EL.

vid 19:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Vid, Interesting change. Thunder Bay is a community struggling with lost jobs, lost opportunities and working to shift toward a knowledge-based economy as a way forward. The Internet as a part of the kbe accessible to those in our community without access to massive government grants and lab coats ;).

Wikipedia has been gaining notoriety increasingly over the policies and abilities of its editors, the Vancouver Mayor's office recently updated the site on him to remove unflattering but true comments. Users at the BBC based computers have been linked to making unflattering comments on US President Bush.

When I look to Wikipedia, and Thunder Bay, one of the things I think should be considered is looking for ways and means of boosting the local economy. That is not to say the site should become a linkfarm. If you go to the Wikipedia page on New York city, you would see that there are links there to media outlets. I guess that needs editing too. ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

 * «When I look to Wikipedia, and Thunder Bay, one of the things I think should be considered is looking for ways and means of boosting the local economy.»

There are two ways a person can lie. They can just make something up—"Joe Smith is a Gold medal winning Olympic athlete "—or they can tell a half truth—"Jack the Ripper was a man in London". An encyclopedia is often seen as a source of fact, not fa or ct. Fact. The whole thing. 'Thunder Bay is a community struggling with lost jobs, a dying resource economy, high crime and urban malaise, with a strong community proud of it's heritage and diversity. The city is a major part of the economy and culture of Northwestern Ontario.' To tell a prospective employer that Thunder Bay is a "bustling market place of 110,000 people" and leave out the rest is dishonest. Wikipedia isn't a tool for repairing our economy, it's a tool for telling people about our city. How it came to be, how it's government works, what it's economy is like, what crime is like, what kind of people live here, and how we relate ourselves to the rest of the world.

The article New York City does not include links to it's media outlets. Media of New York City does not offer links to media outlets, either.

vid 16:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

So then the Wikipedia page is like your blog, with your opinions surplanting others? If you want to include facts, you should have cited the sources for all of them. That isn't the case.

 * Though it may not require a link, I would say Net Newsledger definitely deserves a mention in the media category. After all, a search of Wikipedia for the word News gave this definition:

''News is any new information or information on current events which is presented by print, broadcast, Internet, or word of mouth to a third party or mass audience. '' While Net Newsledger does contain some editorials, it also has many traditional stories and video that falls into the news category. It also does meet Wikipedia's description of New Media. Newspapers, radio, and television media also frequently contain editorials, so the argument of Net Newsledger not being a news site doesn't really mesh. Perhaps Net Newsledger could have its own page as the Chronicle Journal and Dougall Media do... then you could technically justify NNL as being linkworthy. Canuckman55 (talk) 06:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)Canuckman55

 * We can mention it, sure. Moncton had some free rags inserted into its section so I'll shove NNL in and use its URL as a reference. It doesn't meet noteworthyness so far so an article might not be necessary, but if it had a print edition or was part of something big it might be warranted. If we use the definition you posted, we might as well be adding Evergreen, Real Estate News and whatever that Seniors tabloid is called, too. I can't promise you that if I insert this thing it'll stay though. If another edit removes it I will not put it back. vıdıoman  (talk • contribs) 06:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

There are a number of conflicts which are on the page. For example, why is the Hoito listed as a tourist attraction? Why is Victoriaville listed as a tourist attraction?

West Edmonton Mall in Alberta, or Mall of the Americas in Minnesota is a tourist attraction, does Victoriaville fit that model?

When you make decisions, you are using your opinions to decide what you will, or will not allow. Why isn't the McKellar Confectionary listed as a tourist attraction? It is at least as popular as the Hoito.

What about the Persian? Shouldn't the Persian Man be listed to? There is a Thunder Bay only item in the Persian, with a certain but not well known history behind it?

Have fun. Cheerios and Rice Krispies. ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.109.214.138 (talk) 00:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

So then the Wikipedia page is like your blog, with your opinions surplanting others?

Not at all. If you don't like something, change it. That's what the edit button is for!

''If you want to include facts, you should have cited the sources for all of them. That isn't the case.''

Some things don't have sources to cite, or were put there without sources.

''There are a number of conflicts which are on the page. For example, why is the Hoito listed as a tourist attraction? Why is Victoriaville listed as a tourist attraction?''

Is the Hoito not a tourist attraction? Is a shopping facility not a tourist attaction?

West Edmonton Mall in Alberta, or Mall of the Americas in Minnesota is a tourist attraction, does Victoriaville fit that model?

It doesn't. Victoriaville is an urban shopping centre. WEM and MotA are both classified as Entertainment Facilities. Victoriaville does not compare to them. Nothing in Thunder Bay does.

When you make decisions, you are using your opinions to decide what you will, or will not allow.

I am, but I'm not the ultimate authority. Add whatever you want. As long as it exists, and it something a visitor might find interesting, it's ok. :)

''Why isn't the McKellar Confectionary listed as a tourist attraction? It is at least as popular as the Hoito.''

Yes, their burgers are to die for. Add it if you want. Make an article, too! I won't delete it. Other members might. They deleted County Fair Mall, so I expect the factnazis would delete McKeller Confectionary too.

''What about the Persian? Shouldn't the Persian Man be listed to? There is a Thunder Bay only item in the Persian, with a certain but not well known history behind it?''

Persians are listed! They're under the culture heading. :)

vid 19:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Nickname
Is it necessary to list Lakehead twice (technically) then include "Head of the Lakes"? I've never even heard "Head of the Lakes". Vidioman 21:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

 * The first mention is to indicate that Lakehead and Head of the Lakes were historically used names or nicknames (article says 19th and 20th century). The second is to explain the origin of the nickname "Lakehead". I'm not sure a reliable source was cited for either nickname, or their span of usage. But consider this 1943 obituary, which uses both:
 * "Aho, Urho, Mrs.: Mon 11 July 1938 Fort William Daily Times Journal. Lakehead citizens today learned with regret of the death at noon yesterday in hospital here of mrs. Urho Aho, wife of Urho Aho, well-known timber contractor. She succumbed following an illness of about two years duration and which had prevented her from taking part in any community activites during that time. She was fifty years of age. Born in Finland, Mrs. Aho came to Canada in 1911 coming directly to the head of the lakes."
 * It seems to me that "the head of the lakes" was generally uncapitalized (this history seems to reflect typical usage]), but there are counterexamples: "...some 75 conscientious objectors were employed at the Head of the Lakes [Thunder Bay, Ontario] in loading and unloading...." -Agyle 22:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

If it is there to explain Lakehead, it would belong in a section explaining the name, either in the history section (Which needs some improvement) or in the politics section where the name Thunder Bay is explained. Also, is it necessary to have both "Lakehead" and "The Lakehead" together? (Remember what happened last time ;)) It is somewhat redundant. Perhaps put the in brackets? Vidioman 22:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Seems like a judgement call. To me, it seems well positioned in the opening overview paragraph; the explanation doesn't just explain the name, but adds an interesting tidbit on the region's geography. Explaining that it's called both Lakehead and the Lakehead (and really, with "the" before all the nicknames) isn't easy to convey gracefully, but [the] Lakehead, [the] Canadian Lakehead, and [the] Head of the Lakes, as you suggest, is a succinct approach. It would best if we could go back in time and tell everyone who said "the" before the names to stop doing that. It makes sense if they're descriptions, but is awkward for nicknames. -Agyle 02:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well it wasn't a nickname. We were called The Lakehead just as Ottawa is called The Capital. We were, literally, The Lakehead, so it wasn't really a nickname at all, but rather a regional reference. I usually use Lakehead to refer to the entire area, while Thunder Bay refers to the city. Tundra Bay and T Bay are nicknames. (The) Lakehead is more of a geographic reference. Vidioman 02:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Lakehead
I removed "Through the 19th and 20th century the area was commonly referred to as the "Head of the Lakes" or the Lakehead." At the end of the introductory paragraph, there was already a sentence covering this. These terms were NOT used in the 19th century - Thunder Bay was used. Find me one example from a 19th century publication where "lakehead" or "Lakehead" was used. Lakehead came into use as an abbreviation for head of the lakes after WWI during the 1920s. Head of the lakes as a term is also claimed by Duluth, Minnesota --BrentS 14:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

History of Fort William, part of Thunder Bay.
From the information on wikipedia concerning Fort William, we have this bit of information...

"In 1803 the Nor'Westers abandoned Grand Portage and established a new fur trading post, near Fort Kaministiquia on the Kaministiquia River on land acquired from the Ojibwe by written agreement 30 July 1798. In addition Canadian fur traders had been forced to abandon Grand Portage as their centre of operations when that area was ceded to the United States after the American Revolution, and to avoid American taxes the trading post was moved to what became Fort William on the Canadian side of the border.[1]."

This should be merged with the current information on Thunder Bay ?

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 21:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Nope, its in the Fort William article which is linked to in the History section of Thunder Bay. This page really should only have the history concerning the creation of the city of Thunder Bay itself and on. With obvious reference to the Fort William and Port Arthur articles for older information. --Djsasso 21:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see a History of Thunder Bay (Or 'History of The Lakehead') to cover history of the entire thing, and let the Port Arthur and Fort William articles take more of an emphasis on the modern communities, but it is fine as it is now. vıdıoman (talk • contribs) 12:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Possible renaming
move (as a result of a later discussion at Talk:Thunder Bay (disambiguation)). As part of the WP:CANCITY project, I'd like to initiate a discussion about the naming of this page. While I'm not yet prepared to formally nominate this article for a move to the undisambiguated title Thunder Bay, I'd like to solicit opinions about the viability of such a move. To clarify, disambiguation pages are meant to serve as markers to distinguish between items that could otherwise occupy the same title; they're not meant as a list of all topics on Wikipedia with the words "Thunder Bay" in their names, which is what the plain title Thunder Bay is currently being used for.

Out of all the items on that page, the following are the only ones that could validly be moved to the plain title:
 * Thunder Bay, Ontario, the city
 * Thunder Bay (Ontario), the bay on which the city is located,
 * Thunder Bay (electoral district), a defunct electoral district which used to serve the city,
 * Thunder Bay (Michigan), a small bay on Lake Huron,
 * Thunder Bay (film).

All of the other items on the list could never be moved to the plain title, and hence are not primary usages that can enter into the decision. We can also rule out the Ontario bay and the electoral district as primary usages, since they're both subordinate topics to the city. Which leaves only the city, the film and the Michigan bay as potential primary topics — and I believe that the city has a pretty strong claim over the bay (which is smaller than the Ontario bay, and thus wouldn't be a primary usage even if the two bays were the only topics under debate) or the film (which, all due respect to Jimmy Stewart, isn't exactly a famous film that could compete as primary topic with a major regional hub city of over 100,000 people.)

And, for the record, although there are occasional exceptions, the city is the intended topic for the vast majority of erroneous links to the dab page, as well as the only topic of the bunch which has, or could possibly have, a corresponding category of its own.

Any other input? Bearcat (talk) 01:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree with your assessment. An internet search for "Thunder Bay" yields results whose first 200 hits are almost exclusively related to the city. Although not definitive, it strongly suggests that the city is the primary usage of the term. The electoral district is clearly subordinate to the city, the two bays are not nearly as notable, which leaves the film as the only other possibility. As you've stated, this film isn't in the same league as the city. By the way, the rule you specify for dab pages isn't entirely accurate - if, say, a sports team is exclusively known by the city name instead of a nickname, it may qualify as a good entry on a dab page listed at the plain title. I can't think of a convincing example of this, but FC Eindhoven and A.C. Milan are close (the latter, for example, is often referred to as Milan, the name of the city in which it is based). However, the city would almost certainly be placed at the plain title, so the point is moot. Mind  matrix  16:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I came to the same google results as Mindmatrix. The city would appear to be the clear primary use of the term.  Skeezix1000 (talk) 19:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

 * My initial reaction to a move idea was "no" but the above arguments are convincing to me. The city was, of course, named after the bay but the PRIMARYUSAGE of the term is now clearly the city. Double Blue  (Talk) 02:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Head of the lake
The city is often referred to as the Lakehead or Canadian Lakehead because of its location at the end of Great Lakes navigation.

Can someone explain to me how Thunder Bay, 200-some miles east of Lake Superior's westernmost tip at Duluth, can be described as the "head" of the lake? OK, I admit to being a Minn. native — but I don't see the logic in this. Sca (talk) 19:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thunder Bay is at the northern top of the lake. Head's are at the top of things, whereas Duluth would be at the bottom of the lake. -Djsasso (talk) 19:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Regardless, people refer to and have referred to the city and area as 'The Lakehead' for about a hundred years. The bill that created the city was titled "The Creation of a Lakehead City" or something to that effect, as the name wasn't yet decided when the law passed. I would say Duluth is as the tip of the lake, or something like that. The 'location at the end of Great Lakes navigation' sentence should probably be re-worded to say "the end of Great Lakes navigation in Canada" or something to that effect..  vıd ıoman  11:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Hmmm ... I always understood it to mean the farthest extremity on the navigable waters of the Great Lakes & St. Lawrence Seaway.

 * I believe the northernmost lock & dam on the Mississippi is referred to as the "head of navagation" on the river, i.e. the farthest one can begin naviation from the mouth of the river, and it seems to me the same principle would apply to Duluth being the "head" or start of the navigable seaway. I don't see the compass direction as having anything to do with it. (Another example: Lewiston, Idaho, is the head of navigation on the Columbia River.)

 * It seems to me, beknighted American that I am, that Thunder Bay would more logically be described as "the westernmost point in Canada for navigation" on the lakes & seaway.

 * BTW, I'm old enough to remember when the city in question was still Port Arthur & Ft. William & was known as "The Twin Ports." Those were the days when you Canadians still had Monarchs instead of Mercurys, and a union jack on your flag. I spent some of the most enjoyable times of my early years fishing in N. Ontario.

 * Sca (talk) 19:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, its most likely that we consider it the Lakehead of the Canadian side. Who knows why such things are picked. In the end the better name won out. Very few people refer to it as the lakehead anymore anyways. You pretty much only see lakehead mentioned in business names and of course the university. -Djsasso (talk) 20:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

 * But Duluth-Superior is the Twin Ports.  vıd ıoman  21:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We were the Twin Cities at one time, but that was confusing for people in Minnesota I am sure which is why we were called the Twin Ports down there. -Djsasso (talk) 21:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

 * I guess that's right about Duluth-Superior being "the Twin Ports," although Duluth is much bigger than Superior. I suspect there are a lot of businesses in that area with "Lakehead" in their names, too.

 * BTW, I read somewhere that Neil Young was referring to Thunder Bay when he wrote, in "Helpless" — there is a town in north Ontario.... Sca (talk) 18:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * According to a comment on Songmeanings.net, his biography Shakey mentions the town as being Omemee, which is now part of Kawartha. Technically in Southern Ontario, but for someone in Toronto it's "up north". Duluth does have many businesses called 'Lakehead' but people don't refer to Duluth as "The Lakehead", do they?  vıd ıoman  18:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Donno — ask a Duluthian. Sca (talk) 19:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I do know that Neil Young lived in Thunder Bay for a number of years, so I wouldn't doubt that he was talking about Thunder Bay, he got an honourary degree from our university as well. -Djsasso (talk) 19:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Twin Ports" is more popular than "Lakehead" in Duluth-Superior. However, mind you, there is Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa, whose ancestral home was the Fond du Lac neighbourhood of Duluth, and the tip of Lake Superior between the Apostle Islands and Two Harbors was called "Fond du Lac Bay". "Lakehead Pipeline" and "Lakehead Foods" are found in the area. So, why Thunder Bay as "Lakehead"? On the British side, and later the Canadian side, yes, Ft. William/Port Arthur and now Thunder Bay would be the "Lakehead" opposed to the Duluth on the US side. CJLippert (talk) 22:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Rita Ubriaco notable ?
It is regretable that a listing for Rita Ubriaco as a notable person has been deleted.

Hopefully those with interest in Thunder Bay may seek to re-instate the listing.

Mary Christmas !

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 19:39, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Not everyone is notable, at least two dozen existing articles for people from Thunder Bay aren't actually notable enough to have articles. Unless they have done something very notable, city councillors don't need articles, especially those from small cities like Thunder Bay.  vıd ıoman  19:54, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 * She was more than merely a city councillor....Order of Canada, I believe, Status of Women....
 * As was pointed out to you in the AFD she was not an Order of Canada recipient. -Djsasso (talk) 18:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I stand corrected, Canada council, Federal Advisory on the Status of Women, Director of Cambrian Players, writer of plays, ...

"She was the driving force" for the community auditorium, remember a city councillor has as much voting power as a Mayor...!

Rita Ubriaco Obituary

I seriously disagree with the process so far for Rita Ubriaco...if anyone would like to appeal the decision...

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 01:07, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 18:15, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

 * She has been deleted twice now, it is clear she is not notable. Just being locally well known does not represent being notable, the idea that people need to think of when thinking about such people is will someone want to know about them in a couple hundred years. I know this isn't a verifiable way of doing things, but its a quick litmus test to determine if its worth your time creating an article. -Djsasso (talk) 14:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Anyway, I thought posting to those who still contribute to Thunder Bay listing might be more knowledgeable about Rita Ubriaco to be organized enough to involve themselves.

My research into the area of half-truths has shown me very well that some people have their own agendas that conflict with the Truth...or at least what we know of it.

You will note that it has been mentioned that she was a city councillor. That is true, but also a lie, she was much more than that...(welcome to the dark side of truth...sorry about preaching...but it is Sunday...)

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 18:15, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Your half-truths schtick is getting old, Caesar. A mayor holds the power of execution of laws, a city councillor does not. Voting power or not, a city councillor is not a mayor. "She was much more than that" isn't a valid argument for someone having a Wikipedia article and you appear to violate conflict of interest guidelines as well. You can bend things all you want but that won't make her more notable to us.  vıd ıoman  22:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Which part of the half-truth schtick...

The part where 'cult humanists' have corrupted human logic to attack men in general, then polarize the sexes and create chaos in our society through deceptive half-truths, many of which the main media will not expose....or...

The part of 'half-truths' that explains the deception in the garden of eden, and proves that indeed the devil decieved Adam and Eve...

Why are you not happy about this ?

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 03:46, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

 * The part where people force religious ideology on others, and the part that goes on about crazy conspiracy theories while contributing little to society. Now let's re-write the section on Thunder Bay's Geography and Climate.  vıd ıoman  19:11, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Nothing to force upon others....except the 'forcing of black and white' thinking on Canadians and the world by 'philosophical terrorists' that have corrupted the Childrens Aid Society against fathers, and mothers, that have corrupted the Universities to deceptively promote hatred and polarize the sexes using half-truths...

That is a reality...

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 16:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Great Experience...
Hi,

I learned for the first time how to look up revisions and view a history of changes on Wikipedia! I never knew what happened behind the scenes, and today I realized there is much more going on than I had initially assumed.

Kris.

 * You should always check the revision page before using a Wikipedia article, to see if anything has been tampered with before you visited. Most articles you will visit won't be vandalized but it happens occasionally and it doesn't hurt to check.  vıd ıoman  10:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Old Fort William and the Grand Portage connection.
Often history is incorrect, or at least full of missing truths.

According to the presentation at Grand Portage, the trading fort was moved into Canada, when after land surveyors found "the fort' was located in the USA, trade through Canada to Britian was subject to taxes....

So 'they' moved the Fort into Canada...

This is missing....(although this information is found at the site for The Fort....

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 13:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Places of Worship
A picture of St Andrews Presb. appears in the article this church is not listed under places of worship? It would seem a large metro area such as this would have many places of worship, is it prudent to list a select few, the author of the article deems noteworthy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chazran (talk • contribs) 16:44, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Metropolitan area actually quite a bit larger in population
The true population of metropolitan Thunder Bay is actually quite a bit larger than 121,596. Statistics Canada does not include populations from the "Unincorporated Areas" even though these areas are home to people who are part of the commuter-shed of Thunder Bay and, thus, should be included in the CMA population.

It is difficult to estimate the exact number of persons living in the "Thunder Bay District Unincorporated Area" who should be included within the Thunder Bay CMA, since it is such a vast area. However, it is likely that several thousand persons, many of whom live in trailer-parks up the Copenhagen Road and so-on, should be included.

Gorham Township. Ware Township. These 2 unincorporated townships (including the village of Lappe) contain thousands of people as well. Yet Statistics Canada does not enumerate them. Why, I don't know. They just don't.

Anyway, suffice it to say that I have studied the issue of under-counting Northwestern Ontario municipal populations by Statistics Canada, and I can say with confidence that Thunder Bay has a much larger metropolitan population than that which Statistics Canada is willing to publish.

At the minimum, I estimate that Thunder Bay has a metro population of at least 135,000. However, I would venture that the correct number could be as high as 150,000 persons.

We just don’t know.

--Atikokan (talk) 02:14, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Apparently, 93 percent of the census metropolitan area is actually unincorporated land with a population of 5,900 – see Unorganized Thunder Bay District. This is the amount of residents of these communities, so it is actually only probably about now 126,000. However, Statistics Canada does not credit unincorporated municipalities for metropolitan areas or population centres, so officially these communities are not part of Thunder Bay's metropolitan centre. Unless changes regarding this are proposed, then I see no reason for the metropolitan area statistics to be changed. TBrandley (what's up) 03:13, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20070927202727/http://www.golflink.com/golf-courses/city.asp?dest=Thunder+Bay+ON to http://www.golflink.com/golf-courses/city.asp?dest=Thunder+Bay+ON

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title: Talk:Thunder Bay


text:
Marc Rosset

Marc Rosset (born 7 November 1970) is a Swiss former professional tennis player. He is best known for winning the men's singles gold medal at the 1992 Summer Olympics. He also won a major doubles title, at the French Open in 1992 partnering compatriot Jakob Hlasek.

Career
Rosset turned professional in 1988 and won his first tour singles title in 1989 in Geneva as a wildcard, defeating Guillermo Pérez Roldán. His first doubles title was won in Geneva as well in 1991 with partner Sergi Bruguera.

1992 was the pinnacle of Rosset's career. Representing Switzerland at the Olympic Games in Barcelona, he defeated several top players en route to qualifying for the men's singles final, including Jim Courier, Goran Ivanišević, Wayne Ferreira, and Emilio Sánchez. In the final, he faced Spain's Jordi Arrese and won an exciting five-set match to claim the gold medal. Rosset also won the 1992 French Open men's doubles title with partner Jakob Hlasek. Rosset also was a member of the Swiss team which reached the final of the 1992 Davis Cup. Switzerland lost in the final to the United States despite Rosset's winning a five-set singles rubber against Jim Courier (who was ranked world No. 1 at the time).

Rosset's most memorable Davis Cup match came in defeat in a singles rubber against Arnaud Clément of France in 2001, which he lost 15–13 in the fifth set after 5 hours and 46 minutes. During the later years of his playing career, Rosset also served as the Swiss Davis Cup team captain.

Rosset also enjoyed success playing in other international team competitions for Switzerland. In 1996, he was a member of the teams which won the World Team Cup and finished runners-up in the Hopman Cup. That year he also achieved his best performance at a Grand Slam, the 1996 French Open when he defeated Carl-Uwe Steeb, Jiří Novák, Jakob Hlasek, Stefan Edberg and Bernd Karbacher before losing to Michael Stich in the semifinals.

Rosset had a 2–2 record against his successor as Switzerland's top male tennis player, Roger Federer. Rosset won their first two meetings in 2000 (including the final of the Open 13 at Marseille), but Federer won their meetings in 2001 and 2003.

At 2.01 meters (6 ft. 7 in.), Rosset was one of the game's tallest players throughout his career. He was one of the game's fastest servers and most prolific servers of aces for most of his career.

Rosset changed his flight plans after a first-round defeat at the US Open in September 1998. After he changed his plans, the flight he had originally planned to take, Swissair Flight 111, crashed in the Atlantic Ocean, killing all on board.

Rosset's career-high ATP singles ranking was world No. 9, and his career-high doubles ranking was world No. 8. He won a total of 15 top-level singles titles and eight doubles titles. He won at least one singles title on all surfaces: clay, grass, carpet, and hard court.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Marc Rosset


text:
Corroboree

A corroboree is a generic word for a meeting of Australian Aboriginal peoples. It may be a sacred ceremony, a festive celebration, or of a warlike character. A word coined by the first British settlers in the Sydney area from a word in the local Dharug language, it usually includes dance, music, costume and often body decoration.

Origin and etymology
The word "corroboree" was adopted by British settlers soon after colonisation from the Dharug ("Sydney language") Aboriginal Australian word garaabara, denoting a style of dancing. It thus entered the Australian English language as a loan word.

It is a borrowed English word that has been reborrowed to explain a practice that is different from ceremony and more widely inclusive than theatre or opera.

Description
In 1837, explorer and Queensland grazier Tom Petrie wrote: "Their bodies painted in different ways, and they wore various adornments, which were not used every day." In 1938, clergyman and anthropologist Adolphus Elkin wrote of a public pan-Aboriginal dancing "tradition of individual gifts, skill, and ownership" as distinct from the customary practices of appropriate elders guiding initiation and other ritual practices (ceremonies).

The word is described in the Macquarie Atlas of Indigenous Australia: Second Edition as "an Indigenous assembly of a festive, sacred or warlike character".

Throughout Australia the word "corroboree" embraces songs, dances, rallies and meetings of various kinds. In the past a corroboree has been inclusive of sporting events and other forms of skill display.

Another description is "a gathering of Aboriginal Australians interacting with the Dreaming through song and dance", which may be a sacred ceremony or ritual, or different types of meetings or celebrations, which differ "from mob to mob".

Associated later meanings
The Macquarie Dictionary (3rd ed, 1997) gives secondary meanings "any large or noisy gathering" and "a disturbance; an uproar". It also documents its use as a verb (to take part in a corroboree).

The Macquarie Atlas documents a 2003 sports carnival in the Northern Territory which was described by the president of the Yuendumu community council as "a modern day corroboree".

title: Corroboree


text:
Neil Colville

Neil McNeil Colville (August 4, 1914 – December 26, 1987) was a Canadian professional ice hockey player. Born in Edmonton, Alberta, he played for the New York Rangers in the National Hockey League with his brother Mac, winning the Stanley Cup in 1940.

Playing career
Colville joined the Rangers' farm team in 1934 and quickly made his way to the pros by 1936, centreing the "Bread Line" with his brother and Alex Shibicky, where he played until World War II. During the war, he and his brother were stationed in Ottawa and played on the army's Ottawa Commandos team, winning the Allan Cup in 1942.

After the war, they both returned the Rangers, this time as defencemen, the first pairs of brothers to ever do so in the NHL. Neil was adept at both defence and offense, and was the second player to be named to All-Star Teams as both a forward and a defenseman, behind Dit Clapper.

He retired in 1949 and became the Rangers' youngest coach a year later, but he was forced to resign due to health problems halfway through his second season.

Post-playing career
In the 1950s, Colville was one of the primary founding investors in what would become Northern Television Systems, WHTV, in Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada. Colville eventually moved from Vancouver, B.C. to Whitehorse in order to run the small four-channel station alongside Bert Wybrew. He slept in a bunk in the studio and learned to do everything from fixing the equipment to hosting the news casts. Filling the air time without the benefit of extensive broadcasting infrastructure was at times difficult, and the station would run footage of downtown's Main Street or do live broadcasts of a goldfish bowl to fill the hours. He was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1967. He died in 1987 and there is a memorial bench in his honor at the Gary Point Park in Steveston, British Columbia.

In the 2009 book 100 Ranger Greats, the authors ranked Colville at No. 22 all-time of the 901 New York Rangers who had played during the team's first 82 seasons.

title: Neil Colville


text:
User talk:Parul~enwiki

Image source
Thank you for uploading Image:Bradman 2.jpg. Its copyright status is unclear, so it may have to be deleted. Please leave a note on the image page about the source of the image. Thank you. --Ellmist 04:47, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Ignore this, I've retagged it as PD-Australia -- Ian ≡ talk 06:47, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Unspecified source for Image:Bradman 2.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Bradman 2.jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the file also doesn't have a copyright tag, then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the GFDL-self tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Fair use, use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Fritz S. (Talk) 13:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Parul. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Parul~enwiki that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name. If you think you might own all of the accounts with this name and this message is in error, please visit Special:MergeAccount to check and attach all of your accounts to prevent them from being renamed.

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Renamed
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title: User talk:Parul~enwiki


text:
Stanford Center for Internet and Society

The Center for Internet and Society (CIS) is a public interest technology law and policy program founded in 2000 by Lawrence Lessig at Stanford Law School and a part of Law, Science and Technology Program at Stanford Law School. CIS brings together scholars, academics, legislators, students, programmers, security researchers, and scientists to study the interaction of new technologies and the law and to examine how the synergy between the two can either promote or harm public goods like free speech, innovation, privacy, public commons, diversity, and scientific inquiry. CIS strives to improve both technology and law, encouraging decision makers to design both as a means to further democratic values.

CIS provides law students and the general public with educational resources and analyses of policy issues arising at the intersection of law, technology and the public interest. Through the Fair Use Project, CIS also provides legal representation to clients in matters that raise important issues of free expression, civil rights and technology. CIS sponsors a range of public events including a speakers series, conferences and workshops.

People

 * Barbara van Schewick – CIS faculty director; associate professor of law and (by courtesy) electrical engineering
 * Elaine Adolfo - CIS associate director
 * Anthony T. Falzone – executive director, Fair Use Project; lecturer in law (left for Pinterest in 2012)
 * Julie A. Ahrens – director of copyright and fair use, Fair Use Project
 * Aleecia McDonald – director of privacy


text:
User:Ligar~enwiki

ja:user:Ligar

title: User:Ligar~enwiki


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lorna Nogueira/vote2

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was no consensus. Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:25, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lorna Nogueira
The contents of the deletion debate have been removed as they relate to a living person. A record of the deletion debate can be found in this page's history.

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Apm (Hong Kong)

apm is a large shopping mall in Kwun Tong, Hong Kong, which opened in July 2005. It is located within Millennium City 5, a commercial property developed by Sun Hung Kai Properties. Together with Millennium Cities 1, 2, 3, and 6, they are a group of commercial properties situated along Kwun Tong Road. apm is located next to the Kwun Tong station, with ten storeys and a total retail area of 600000 sqft. Underground hourly parking is also available.

Origins of the name "apm"
The name apm is a fusion of "am" (ante meridiem) and "pm" (post meridiem), promoting the mall's theme of a place for night-time shopping and leisure as well as its slogan "play more, sleep less". Therefore, most of the stores are open until after midnight.

The concept of night-time leisure originates from the fact that in recent years, lengthened working hours are causing more stressful lifestyles, yet most shopping malls in Hong Kong are only open until 10pm, so people have fewer places to spend time after work to destress. apm uses its long opening hours to reduce the time constraints of shopping and leisure. For example, the initial opening hours of jp@apm (now located on 6/F) were from 11am to 12am midnight.

In the early years, apm's main sales demographic was younger and youthful shoppers. As Kowloon East had been lacking a large trendy shopping mall, apm was opened in July 2005 and has become one of the shopping and entertainment hotspots for young people in Hong Kong, even attracting residents from Hong Kong Island and New Territories East. The performances held on the lobby level are also a special feature of the mall. Many aspiring singers, music composers and performance groups sing and perform here, and apm has also become a popular venue for many movie studios and record companies to hold promotional activities such as signing sessions and premieres.

Design and Facilities
apm is an example of a "vertical mall". With a floor plate of about 50000 sqft, It has a floor area of some 600000 sqft spanning across 10 floors.

The mall is linked by four air-conditioned footbridges, connecting to the MTR Kwun Tong Station, Yue Man Square / Kwun Tong Road, Entrepot Centre and Crocodile Centre.

Two express escalators are located in the middle of the mall to take visitors between levels.

Tenants
Notable tenants include:
 * YATA Supermarket, occupying 32100 sqft on LG.
 * Five Guys on C (Concourse Floor).
 * H&M, on L1.
 * B+ cinema (previously PALACE apm), a cinema under the Broadway Circuit, located on the top floor (L6).
 * Muji
 * Uniqlo
 * Apple Inc.

Transport

 * MTR:
 * Kwun Tong line: Kwun Tong station (Exit A2)
 * Bus,
 * Public light bus,
 * Kowloon public light bus,
 * New Territories public light bus.
 * 24hrs Cross-Border Express:
 * Kwun Tong Line – Lam Tin MTR Station ↔ Shenzhen Huanggang

title: Apm (Hong Kong)


text:
User talk:Odells

Can you tell me whether there is permission to use the text from the http://www.gospelcom.net/reslife/new/about.php in Resurrection life church? Thanks. DDerby 04:51, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Odells