text:
Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 8

Category:Electoral divisions of Australia
This looks really, really empty... now that I know the naming convention, I might have a go at some. Anynone know where a complete list could be found, eg. the AEC? Alphax (t) (c) (e) 08:22, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * go to http://www.aec.gov.au/_content/who/profiles/2004/index.htm, or for info on the electorates, go to http://www.aec.gov.au/_content/who/profiles/index.htm. Xtra 08:34, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Aha! Let us create a complete list. Regex makes this so easy! Alphax (t) (c) (e) 08:57, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

 * *snip* I hope no-one minds, I deleted the list from this page, as it already exists at Australian Electoral Divisions - and it made the page even longer! -- Chuq 23:57, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay, I don't know what I was thinking when I did that. Is there a Wikiproject:Australian Politics, under that or another name? This should go on their to-do list if there is. Thanks for removing that BTW. Alphax (t) (c) (e) 13:18, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * There's a list at Australian wikipedians' notice board/Complete to-do/Electorates. Ambi 14:06, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Graham Shirley Strahan
I recently did a bit of tidying on Graham Shirley Strahan, but there's something bothering me: The article, in different places, gave his surname as "Strahan" or "Strachan". I went with the spelling in the article title because it was easier, but are there any Skyhooks fans hanging around here who can tell me which spelling is actually the correct one? --Paul A 03:25, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * It is spelled Strachan, Shirely is a nickname and mabye should be inverted commas.--nixie 04:45, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. While we're on the subject, is it "The Skyhooks" or just "Skyhooks"? --Paul A 08:34, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure, except to say that page names aren't supposed to include 'the' --nixie 23:19, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * If it's part of the name, then "The" should be included -- "The Beatles" are at The Beatles and not Beatles. See Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name) for guidance.  That said, I don't know what the proper name for the Skyhooks is.  Geoff/Gsl 23:25, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * The Skyhooks offical site doesn't use the, so it probably safe to assume that its Skyhooks rather than the Skyhooks--nixie 00:23, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Australia Post's Legends
For 2005 they choose six fashion designers. Prue Acton OBE, Jenny Bannister, Collette Dinnigan, Akira Isogawa, Joe Saba and Carla Zampatti AM. Someone familiar with Australian fashion might want to have a go at them. --nixie 04:50, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh dear. My to-do list grows, again. Ambi 09:57, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Western Australian Election called - some requests
Anyone feel like writing Western Australian state election, 2005? I know the Canadians are ahead of us in this respect, and it'd be nice to get articles on at least the upcoming state elections.

We also still don't have an article on Opposition Leader (and arguable favourite for the next Premier) Colin Barnett. Our article on Premier Gallop could also do with some work - it's among the shortest of our articles on state premiers. In addition, we have no articles on any members of the Legislative Assembly apart from Gallop. These could receive a few hits over the next month, so it'd be nice to get some decent articles - particularly on the election itself, Gallop and Barnett happening as soon as possible. Ambi 09:57, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

HECS
The HECS page seems to need some significant updates for the new rules. The history section is a nice summary of tertiary fees in Australia except for not describing the introduction of HECS itself in 1989. Can our uni students update this article? You are more likely to know the rules than I am. --ScottDavis 01:44, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * What new rules, exactly? (I mean, I have a bit of an idea as I'm about to start uni, but...) I'll see what I can do, but it'd be nice if you could point me in the right direction first. Ambi 02:26, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't mention interest on HECS, its called HECS-HELP now, and there have been changes to the various post graduate loan schemes. Everything appears to be here. I'm not sure how/where you'd incorporate the introduction of full-fees degrees --nixie 02:40, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * isn't HELP the loan for full fee students?
 * as such it wouldnt be part of HECS.
 * the main differences to HECS are allowing uni's to charge from $0 up to ?25%? over the recomended HECS price. and increasing the amount of money that needs to be earned before students need to repay HECS - i don't believe that any interest will be charged.
 * the HELP system i think is a low interest loan for full fee students.
 * i think that is correct. Xtra 05:05, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * HECS places are now 'Commonwealth supported', and a HECS debt is now HECS-HELP. The pricing is different - Australians can pay for courses if they don't qualify for a HECS place on academic merit (just like foreigners). HECS has always had interest, and I expect will continue to (although it's low interest indexed to cost of living, and was negative once). --ScottDavis 05:29, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

David Marr
Unfortunately, he's apparently a British chemist. Does an entry on the Australian exist? - User:Lacrimosus, forgot to sign

 * Nope. David Marr (journalist) is redlinked from the Media Watch article, and should be from a few other places. Ambi 08:49, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Article now exists and this request is fulfilled. Discussion is left for the record unless it is a policy to delete discussion where the request has been fulfilled - can someone please advise? --AYArktos 22:27, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Calling all Aussie cricket fans
I've written a couple of articles, Test matches in the 19th century (to 1887) and Test matches in the 19th century (1888 to 1900). The sources were all English, however, so it could do with some Aussiefication. I'd be grateful for any help from any Aussies who know about the subject.

Also, Aussie cricket fans may be interested in joining WikiProject Cricket. Kind regards, jguk 20:48, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

High Court and other Law Things
To complement Category:High Court of Australia cases, I've added List of High Court of Australia cases, with a few redlinks of important cases in there. Feel free to add to this list at any time. I've done an article on the Tasmanian Dams Case already. As far as starting WikiProject:Australian law, I'm happy to take the lead if there are some people who can help out. Anyone interested? --bainer 07:02, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Very interested. Other Australian lawyers / law students that I've come across include Ambi, David Stewart and Psychobabble. Xtra has also offered to participate. See item /* Law */, above. Right now, I'm working on a draft for an article on Royal Commission into the Building and Construction Industry, and my (very rough) notes are here --SilasM 04:09, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * A further thought. Before anyone gets too far into creating lists, stubs or articles for High Court cases, it might be good if we work out a template, at the very least for how to name the articles. I think you are on the right track, in your Tasmanian Dams article, to call the article "The Commonwealth v Tasmania" and insert a redirect for the pupular name. If we're going to start on prominent High Court cases, and especially in relation to the constitutional cases, we're going to quickly run up against the problem that many, many of the major cases involve litigation between the States and the Commonwealth, and many cases have identical names. I shudder to think how many "Commonwealth v Victoria" and especially "Victoria v Commonwealth" cases are milling around in the Commonwealth Law Reports. My first suggestion is that each article on a High Court case should have a name which includes its proper CLR citation. In the case of your Tasmanian Dams article, it would be moved to Commonwealth v Tasmania (1983) 158 CLR 1. Any comments? If a consensus developes about this (or any alternative) template policy, then I think we are entitled to start a Wikiproject Australian law page, and post it there. --SilasM 04:26, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * An excellent resource for Australian law is the Australasian Legal Information Institute, High Court cases are under Commenwealth Cases & Legislation. Not sure how you pick which cases are notbale, good luck with the project.--nixie 04:33, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * have a Vic v Cth dsambig page. that can have links to the industrial relations act case etc. the individual articles could be called - Vic v Cth (Industrial Relations Act Case). etc Xtra 04:43, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is another way to do it. I have an aesthetic preference for my suggestion, but I don't see any particular logical reason for preferring one over the other. If your suggested method is to be preferred, then I'd recommend that it be complemented by a suggestion that a template prompt editors to include at the start of their article at least the CLR citation, and preferably the citation of other report series as well (eg, Commonwealth v Tasmania (1983) 158 CLR 1; (1983) 46 ALR 625; (1983) 57 ALJR 450). --SilasM 04:55, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * p.s. notable cases can be found by flicking through any good constitutional law text book Xtra 04:45, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, I created the project at WikiProject Australian law. Feel free to discuss naming of cases at WikiProject Australian law/Policy. --bainer 06:43, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Human rights in Australia
I've created this article, mostly by copying from other articles. I don't really intend to do any more on it, so feel free to add/remove in your area of interest. The legislation section especially could use input from some lawyer-types. - Borofkin 04:05, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In need of some help with a FAC
Hi all I could do with some help with a FAC, Test matches in the 19th century (to 1883) - which I'll probably rename History of Test cricket (1877 to 1883) once it's off FAC. I've spent quite some time getting it up to scratch, but it needs some more support/comments to get it through to FA status. Any help on WP:FAC would be very much appreciated, jguk 21:09, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Major/Minor political parties
There seems still to be some contradictions over which Australian political parties are classed as minor. I originally raised this issue on the talk page for List of political parties in Australia, where I noted that parties like the Democrats and the Greens had been moved from the minor parties section into the significant parties section. I have been creating and editing electoral division pages (eg. Division of Brand) and noting the best result from a minor party, which I have defined as any party other than the ALP, the Liberals or the Nationals (or their predecessors) or any other party that has held government in its own right. Thus, for Brand I noted that the best performance by a minor party was by One Nation in 1998 while for others it has been the Democrats. Fine and dandy, except for the fact that the information doesn't match up between the Division pages and the List of political parties in Australia page.

This is made even more confusing now that I see that List of political parties in Australia has under the heading "Significant political parties (and their federal leaders)", the sub heading "Minor parties include". So the Democrats and Greens are now seen as the somewhat odd minor significant parties. All no doubt confusing to the casual reader. Ideally, I would list parties like the Democrats and the Greens under minor parties on List of political parties... but if anyone has a better suggestion on how to fix this, I'd be pleased to hear it. --Roisterer 23:30, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * that sounds ok. there should be some kind of threshold requirement to be classified a major party. Xtra 23:45, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I think a threshold requirement is a good idea, perhaps based on the percentage of votes recieved (data for the 2004 federal election here (House) and here (Senate)). For example, a threshold of 5% nationally would make the major parties the Libs, Nats, ALP and Greens (these parties broke 5% of total votes in the House and the Senate). All other parties would thus be minor parties. Also, I don't think that state-by-state variations should be taken into account since this article has national scope. --bainer 00:29, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Major/Minor/Micro Parties
What about

 * Major Parties - many members elected
 * Minor Parties - a few members elected or likely to be elected
 * Micro Parties - not likely to have anyone elected.

Tabletop 00:39, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * The problem with this is that the definition of "likely" or "not likely to be elected" is going to vary wildly according to political views, and this creates inherent POV problems. Once again, I suggest a percentage threshold (like I said above). --bainer 06:38, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * maybe have major party = party represented in the house of representatives (except CLP = minor). minor party = party represented in an australian house of parliament. micro party = party not represented n any australian parliament. Xtra 08:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Like Grey Power? Alphax (t) (c) (e) 01:45, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * How about if Major Parties are parties that have formed government on their own, or been the senior partner in a federal government (Labor, Liberal, and their predecessors), or in a semi-permanent coalition (National and Country Liberal, ie. there is an assumption of coalition). Minor parties should be those that have elected at least two members of Parliament at any level. This can include the re-election of the same person. So this includes Family First and the CDP, but not Socialist Alliance, or the 'microparties' in the NSW Upper House. Microparties can be everyone else. I'm also gonna change the Family First line in the list of political parties in Australia to list Senator Steve Fielding as leader, not Andrea Mason.

Would it be preferable to decide Major/Minor/Micro status on the basis of party membership? I think it would be best if it were decided on a mixture of things: party membership; parliamentary representation; percentage of vote recieved. --Cyberjunkie 15:02, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think that would work. After all, the Democrats have had quite a low membership level since they were created. Plus, there's no verifiable information on party member levels. Braue

Cornelia Rau
I've just added an entry on Cornelia Rau. New information about this is emerging every day. I'd like to continue adding information, but I'll be very busy over the next week, and will not have time to contribute. I'm hoping get the ball rolling on this. Cnwb 06:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Australia city/place dot-maps
G'day! For those who don't know me, I'm Bumm13. I've been making U.S. city/place dot-maps as part of Wikipedia's Dot-Map Project (I'm from the U.S., by the way) that was started by Seth Ilys in March 2004. I'd like to lend my map-editing skills to Australia's city articles on Wikipedia. I've done some research into the situation, and I see that many of Australia's city/place articles are incomplete or works in progress. So I'm posting here at the request of Ta bu shi da yu to see what Aussie Wikipedians think about getting some dot-maps for their city articles and also assistance in completing incomplete articles.

Any input on my dot-map proposition is highly welcomed. Thanks! Bumm13 11:05, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) (talk)

 * I think the dot maps are a good idea. Is anyone able to help bumm out with finding geographical data? - Ta bu shi da yu 03:33, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I went and looked at some of the Australia geographical articles and it looks like most of the city articles do exist; it is shire articles that are much more incomplete. For now, that will be okay, as cities and towns are a higher priority, in my opinion. My primary concern involves dividing each state map into specific regions. Regions seem to be an agreed-upon state subdivision in every Australian state, but also seem to lack the consistency of, say, counties in U.S. states. I want to make sure that the maps I make are acceptable at least in terms of de facto accuracy, so feedback on this specific point would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Bumm13 04:27, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Ya, that's pretty much how regions work. We have an odd geography due to a large part of our country being desert, and we have states and territories and a three tiered government, so it might seem a little wierd at first. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:35, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Regions are messy, I think you'd want to look at boundries for local governments since they're official, like this map of Queensland local government boundaries. They probably exist for most of the populous states, I'm not sure about local government divisions in the Northern Territory.--nixie 04:38, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * See also regions and local government boundaries in NSW, WA Vic--nixie 04:41, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm keep to assist with this, some of my attempts in this area can be seen at User:Chuq/Maps. I also have a map in Photoshop at home, with capital cities and some major regional cities marked, ready to generate png/gif format maps for each town. (My choice of colours needs a lot of work however!)

One thing I've found with the US county maps and the UK shire maps, is that the counties/shires are usually unrecognisable shapes, and don't offer context (ie. a map of the county within the state, for example). Also, while US counties are reasonably equal-sized (like Image:Map_of_Michigan_highlighting_Oceana_County.png, Australian local government areas vary greatly in size. A map of (eg) Victoria, with one of the inner-city council areas marked (eg. City of Casey), would be very hard to read (the city - and i mean a city council area, equivalent of a county - would be merely a dot). -- Chuq 05:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I understand the issue with urban/inner-city council areas. Dot-maps were never meant to address this issue, rather simply show a city/place's location within the greater context of the country's primary geographic subdivision (in this case, Australian states). Other maps are clearly a better solution for showing where a place within a larger city's metropolitan area lies. A city council area isn't necessarily the rough equivalent of a U.S. county, although such comparisons are never truly straightforward. Bumm13 11:53, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

For completeness, the SA local government areas are at the Local Government Association website. However, as others have said, neither the local government boundaries nor the "region" boundaries are well-recognised divisions. The coastline is fairly distinctive for locating things, plus the Murray River and the major highways. It is also common to only use the southeast part of the state, as there isn't much north of Port Augusta or west of Ceduna. These pictures have too many roads for the purpose, the coastline needs to be heavier, and the Murray needs to drawn better. The red and green roads without the highway identifiers would be about the right amount of them. --ScottDavis 13:55, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Whitlams
Anyone a fan? Jak Housden is up for deletion and I thought it'd be good if someone were able to contribute. Lacrimosus 22:34, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Murray River crossings
I started collecting some info about bridges and punts to add to the Transport section of Murray River. I thought there were only a few bridges (I'm from SA), and the Murray forms a significant barrier. It quickly became too long to put in the main article without being disproportionate. Do other Australians think I should make a new article, or insert into the main article? --ScottDavis 13:00, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * With only a single response, I've created Murray River crossings --ScottDavis 12:46, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

WikiProject Perth??
Is that we need to start for the WikiProject Perth, to compose about the things in Perth, Western Austraia? --Shinjiman 16:22, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

State leaders
I have done Colin Barnett and tried to improve Geoffrey Gallop so that it is no longer just text copied from the ALP website, but it needs more work by someone in WA. I note that Liberal state leaders Bob Quinn and Rene Hidding still don't have articles. I note also that the Lawrence Springborg article is very weak. Adam 23:56, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * How appropriate :). No seriously, I'll get on to that. . . Lacrimosus 03:30, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

He has a website you can use. Is he related to Robert Springborg the Saddam apologist, by the way? Adam 03:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Adam. I've been after people to do this for ages. It would also be helpful to add Matt Birney to your list, seeing he appears to be firming as Barnett's replacement. I've now nearly finished writing seperate articles on every state and territory parliament (only Queensland to go), with matching member lists for each. It'd be nice if some of you could work on some of your local politicians and major ministers in each state - there are a lot of holes. Ambi 04:02, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sydney Hilton bombing
Can someone a little more thick-skinned give me a hand here? There's a guy who insists that at least half the article be dedicated to his theories about how ASIO was responsible. It really needs improvement anyway, but it'd be nice if someone could a) fix it, and b) fend off this POV warrior. Ambi 04:02, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Four wheel drive
This is so shockingly bad that it's not funny. The article also needs a picture. Alphax τεχ 00:04, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * Would a picture redeem the article, or make it funny? --SilasM 03:36, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * A picture is definately needed; this section is utter bollocks though. Alphax τεχ 02:36, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

Elisabeth Murdoch
I have contributed a piece on Elisabeth Murdoch. Adam 01:13, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Let's retire Bert?
Bert Newton has been our supposed 'collaboration of the week' for what feels like about six months now. Is this a sign that a weekly round of collaborations on this list is just a little too ambitious? Maybe the feature should be retired for the time being. Certainly Bert should be. --SilasM 03:05, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Perhaps that most people are turned off by him? ;) Dysprosia 03:09, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think we have enough people to do a weekly thing. Alphax τεχ 02:44, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * Make it a fortnight or month. That's what a couple of the others have done. Ambi 03:38, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Make it a month. Can't type too much as have screwed up my hand. screw formatting! - Ta bu shi da yu 03:41, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I've never enjoyed Bert and his TV spamming ways. Move him on. :) -- Longhair | Talk 18:56, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since no-one else seemed interested I have taken a necessary axe to Bert Newton. It is now moderately respectable. Someone should try to find a public domain photo. Adam 07:16, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Bert should be deleted as "collboration of the week". Why has this page been set so that I can't delete that line? Adam 02:34, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * View the source. It leads you to the template for editing of the to do list up top, which is here (and editable). I've moved this stuff to the Let's retire Bert section as well. This page is hard enough to read as it is without making it any worse. -- Longhair | Talk 23:41, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Glebe Point Road
Is up for deletion. Although the consensus at this stage is definitely to keep. This concerns me in that other Australian streets could be at risk. Lacrimosus 00:13, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Have voted. The nice thing about this board is that we can tell them what is a crap Australian article and what is a notable Australian article :-) Ta bu shi da yu 00:48, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Template:Australia-bio-stub
Alphax τεχ 02:43, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Do we need this?
 * 2) Should we have it?
 * 3) Is it against standard policy?
 * 4) Does anyone have a thumbnail that could be used here?

 * I've been bio-stubbing a lot recently, and I've noticed several other countries already using such a template. It can be put to good use. Wikiepedia is growing fast, and the general list of stub categories is already way too large to be practically usable. Your idea of an Australian bio-template will be created sooner or later. It has my full support. Now who would we use as a thumbnail icon to provide that quick glance recognition feel? Does anyone have an idea on some instantly recognisable notable Aussies' for the thumbnail image?-- Longhair | Talk 18:50, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Paul Hogan, Ned Kelly, Steve Irwin, John Howard, anybody wearing an Akubra. Is the objective to pick some recognisable to Australians, or recognised as an Australian by the rest of the world? ScottDavis 03:36, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and created the template, and used a thumb of the John Howard image for now. Anyone with a better thumbnail (or a better choice), feel free to replace it. -- Longhair | Talk 01:00, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Russell Crowe, Edna Everage, Kylie Minogue, Mel Gibson, Rolf Harris were suggested on IRC. Alphax τεχ 00:12, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

Crown copyright
Does this apply to Australia? If anyone knows how it does (IANAL) the article needs to info to indicate as such. Thanks, Alphax τεχ 22:27, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * This summarises the crown copyright situation in Australia. It is complicated by digitization, for example material that was made over 50 years ago by employees of the government and was digitised by the National Archives or Library now is covered under copyright. Using NAA or NLA images in unauthorised ways can actulally get you banned from using their services. But I guess if you had some old governement reports or something like that the material would be fair game. --nixie 23:17, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The following link to a recent report by the Federal Attorney-General's department is helpful: Copyright Law Review Committee: Issues Paper. As with the Canadian system dealt with in the wikipaedia article, Australian copyright law has its foundations in English law. The Copyright Act 1968 (Cth) (the Copyright Act) established the current legal framework in Australia and enacted in Commonwealth legislation a provision similar to s 39 of the 1956 UK Act.

In its issues paper the committee noted: Australian governments (Commonwealth, State and Territory), like most of their overseas counterparts, create and disseminate a wide range of material. This ranges from public announcements and media releases, legislation and other legal and parliamentary materials, reports, directories, guides and educational material, photographs, to specialised historical works, maps, plans and commissioned works such as biographies and art works. Under Australian copyright law, the respective government normally owns copyright in those materials where they are the creators of those materials.

In some of the material published by these governments there is a strong and identifiable public interest in ensuring its widest dissemination. In other material, such as general historical works, this interest is not as strong. The Committee also notes that the government owns copyright in a wide range of unpublished materials. Such materials would include submissions to Ministers, some databases and computer software. --AYArktos 23:34, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This website is also useful for understanding the copyright sitiuation in Australia, Australian Digital Alliance --nixie 23:11, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * So... any Law students feel like adding to the article? Alphax τεχ 23:54, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Eucalyptus identification
Anyone have any thoughts on the identity of this Eucalyptus at wiki commons? It is labelled E. globulus, but it very definitely isn't that. - MPF 11:56, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Maybe Eucalyptus polyanthemos ? Securiger 12:48, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Perhaps one of the state museums or botanic gardens could help us out. Try this site: Australian National Botanic Gardens. Alphax τεχ 00:07, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

University of Adelaide flooding
Fortunately the IT services are (fairly) back online, which means I have internet access. Alphax τεχ 09:19, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Check out what happened @ http://www.adelaide.edu.au/waterdamage/ . Alphax τεχ 07:10, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Uncategorized pages
Those of us who are working through Special:Uncategorizedpages have reached 'Au', which means a considerable number of articles related to Australia. In theory the people on this board should no how best to categorize these, so I am listing them here:

 * 1) Australasian Bottled Water Institute
 * 2) * Added . Alphax τεχ 09:38, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Australasian Union of Jewish Students
 * 4) * Now in Category:Students' unions.
 * 5) Australasian treecreeper
 * 6) * Now in Category:Birds of Australia.
 * 7) Australia's Funniest Home Video Show
 * 8) * Now in Category:Australian television series.
 * 9) Australia II
 * 10) * Now in Category:Sailboat Names and Category:Sailing.
 * 11) Australia Standard Pallets
 * 12) * Now in Category:Commercial item transport and distribution and added . Alphax τεχ 09:38, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * 13) Australian Commonwealth ministries 1901-2004
 * 14) * Now in Category:Australian history.
 * 15) Australian Communications Authority
 * 16) * Now in Category:Communications in Australia.
 * 17) Australian Companion Rabbit Society
 * 18) * Now in Category:Pets
 * 19) Australian Consumers Association
 * 20) * Now in Category:Consumer organizations
 * 21) Australian Graduate School of Management
 * 22) * Now in Category:Universities in Australia
 * 23) Australian Inter Dominion Harness Racing Championship
 * 24) * Now in Category:Horse racing
 * 25) Australian Liberal Students Federation
 * 26) *Now in Category:Students' unions and Category:Australia ScottDavis 12:19, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 27) Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association
 * 28) *Now in Category:Australian trade unions
 * 29) Australian Medical Association
 * 30) *Now in Category:Medical associations
 * 31) Australian Medicines Handbook
 * 32) *Now in Category:Medicine
 * 33) Australian Natives Association
 * 34) * Now in Category:Fraternal and Service Organizations and Category:Australian history--AYArktos 07:15, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 35) Australian Open champions (Men's Doubles)
 * 36) *Now in Category:Tennis
 * 37) Australian Open champions (Men's Singles)
 * 38) *Now in Category:Tennis
 * 39) Australian Open champions (Mixed Doubles)
 * 40) *Now in Category:Tennis
 * 41) Australian Open champions (Women's Singles)
 * 42) *Now in Category:Tennis
 * 43) Australian Plague Locust Commission
 * 44) *Now in Category:Government of Australia
 * 45) Australian Prudential Regulation Authority
 * 46) * Now in Category:Government of Australia and Category:Finance.
 * 47) Australian Schools Science Competition
 * 48) * Now in Category:Education in Australia and added . Alphax τεχ 09:08, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * 49) Australian Soft Drinks Association
 * 50) * Now in Category:Industry trade groups and Category:Organization stubs.
 * 51) Australian Total Diet Survey
 * 52) * Now in Category:Healthcare in Australia and (nonexistant) Category:Diet. Added . Alphax τεχ 15:30, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * 53) Australian lime
 * 54) * Now in Category:Citrus and added . Alphax τεχ 09:08, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * 55) Australian megafauna
 * 56) * Added to Category:Lists of animals and Category:Extinct animals. Alphax τεχ 15:30, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * 57) Australian permanent resident
 * 58) * Now an and in Category:Australian immigration.
 * 59) Australidelphia
 * 60) * Now in Category:Mammals
 * 61) Australo-Papuan babbler
 * 62) * Now in Category:Birds of Australia.

 * -SimonP 18:55, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * That's all, folks!. Well done to everyone who helped. Alphax τεχ 15:34, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Great work, thanks. - SimonP 04:07, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Ballarat Cricket Association on VfD
Someone needs to look at this. Alphax τεχ 00:13, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Just because it's Australian doesn't make it encyclopedic, keeping this article about a local sporting organisation sets a terrible precedent for keeping entries on local sporting organisations everywhere (there are probably millions of them), very few of which are worth having articles for--nixie 00:38, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Chief Justice of Australia
I started this article, but I'm not sure now whether that is the correct title - is it Chief Justice of the High Court of Australia or Chief Justice of Australia?

 * no, your right. Xtra 06:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Chief Justice of the High Court of Australia is correct. The other was a title Garfield Barwick arrogated to himself as a result of his megelomania. The High Court website says: "Anthony Murray Gleeson was appointed Chief Justice of the High Court of Australia in May 1998. At the time of his appointment he was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New South Wales, having been appointed to that office in November 1988." Adam 07:44, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * The commission held by the Chief Justice appoints him or her to the office of Chief Justice of the High Court of Australia. The holder of that office is confined to legal powers and responsibilities relating to the High Court of Australia, with some minor exceptions. Contra Adam, I don't think we can entirely blame Garf for the alternative assignation. The term was used by William Cullen when welcoming Knox to the court as Chief Justice in 1919. There is some statutory basis for the term. The Pensions Act 1918 (Cth) provided for the grant of a pension to the "First Chief Justice of Australia". Having said all that, I would recommend that Chief Justice of Australia be redirected to Chief Justice of the High Court of Australia. --SilasM 08:07, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * PS - Mate, you need to get into the habit of signing your comments. Cheers. --SilasM 08:07, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the shorter usage is more common in the United States - cf. Chief Justice of the United States. By the way, I've finished putting succession boxes through all of these. --bainer 13:26, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm in the habit, I just lapse occasionally. William de Warenne, 6th Earl of Surrey 08:50, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC). Redirected accordingly.

 * I am afraid that you may all be wrong (meaning I am right). please see s2A(2) GOVERNOR-GENERAL ACT 1974 (Cth) under "basic rate". It clearly states "the Chief Justice of Australia". Xtra 14:39, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * But, as noted above, this was the time when Garfield Barwick, who had a predilection for the other title, was Chief Justice. The point isn't that instances of "Chief Justice of Australia" are impossible to find; it's just that they're not as frequent as "of the High Court of Australia", and if it was indeed the official title, you would not expect to see any reference to the "Chief Justice of the High Court of Australia" in any official work. Lacrimosus 21:24, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Is John Howard the Prime Minister of the Governor General of Australia or the Prime Minister of Australia? Xtra 22:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * P.S. you can't get much more official than a Commonwealth Act of Parliament. Xtra 01:51, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Xtra, Acts of Parliament frequently give shortened or otherwise incorrect names for things. The derterminate piece of evidence is what the High Court itself says at its website. Adam 04:10, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

New from me: Australian Workers Union. Adam 12:08, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Excellent work, Adam! A very good article. Lacrimosus 03:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone like Chico Rolls?
The Chico Roll entry needs attention--nixie 00:31, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * After some frustrating googling I found that they are Chiko rolls. All you probably need to know is at

 * Anyone who called them Chico rolls needs to be deported. (OMG I was just possessed by Phillip Ruddock). They are delicious and certainly an icon! Eat one today (have some unknown gastrointestinal disorder tomorrow).--ZayZayEM 07:42, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I am not quite sure why anyone would want to include it on wikipedia. I don't regard it as iconic.  The originator of that article contibuted only that morsel of information and no other.  The article links nowhere and has no particular context.

 * I must confess to not enjoying the product the one time I tasted it many years ago.  --AYArktos 01:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the link. I've never been game to eat one, though it is probably as recognized as a Tim Tam, and using that criteria it does have some potential for expansion.--nixie 03:06, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In the news
We dont seem to have an article on Baxter Detention Centre, which is unfortunate, since i'd quite like to link to it from wikinews. Some links in case anyone wants to give it a go  The bellman 10:00, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

New from me: John Wren Adam 15:19, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Exserts on Votes for deletion
Apparently these guys are a pub rock band from Sydney. I haven't heard of them, has anyone else? Slac speak up!  08:05, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Seldom Seen Roadhouse
Is also up for deletion. Any thoughts, people? Can anyone vouch for its notability? Slac speak up!  23:13, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I can't vouch for the notability of the roadhouse. Looking at the article there seems to be an error in the reference tothe Blue Mountains.  Surely should be Snowy Mountains.  Seldom Seen Roadhouse is marked as a locality in my road atlas otherwise I would suggest merging it with a geographic stub article on the locality of Seldom Seen.

 * A picture of the roadhouse can be found at associated with the comment dated March 2005 that the roadhouse was burnt by the recent bushfires but is still trading.  This SMH article with picture refers to bushfires of February 2003 when the roadhouse was burnt out. --AYArktos 00:32, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Category:Australian mobsters
In the last few days a new category of Australian Mobsters has been started as a sub-category of Australian Crime. Two entries have so far been been categorised: Squizzy Taylor and Mark Chopper Read.

The naming of the category is just on the margin for me - I don't think the word "mobsters" is an Australian word in the sense that we would apply to our own local thugs. For me it is a word associated with overseas - eg Chicago.

What does anybody else think?

As the category was set up from an anoymous IP I can't talk to the user involved.

PS how do you reference within Wikipedia the category page without making the page on which you are citing an article linked to the category? I have been using the external link to get around that problem. --AYArktos 22:18, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * To link to category pages, put a colon just inside the double square brackets, like this: Category:Australian mobsters . As for the naming of the category, they tend to call the organised crime scene "gangland" (down here in Melbourne at least) in the media, which sounds just as odd. Mobster has stronger connections to the Mafia particularly, so perhaps Australian gangsters might be a better name. --bainer 22:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Perhaps - organised crime figures works as well. Ambi 23:05, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I ageee, mobsters isn't a word we use here, gangsters would be better as per bainers suggestion--nixie 23:16, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Another quibble - is Chopper "organised" crime? I thought he was more free-lance. Slac speak up!  23:29, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Mobsters" is a horrible Americanism, and is pretty tabloidy even in the US. "Gangsters is somewhat better but still slang. My suggestion would be Category:Australian crime figures. Adam 23:37, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * More than this, "mobsters" doesn't reflect how professional criminals are organised. From what I've read in the newspaper on the topic (and yes, some skepticism is probably deserved) freelancing and "independent contracting" seems to be the rule, rather than the exception as far as the Melbourne underworld goes. --Robert Merkel 01:22, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Adam's suggestion of renaming the category to Australian crime figures would seem to cover the issue of independence that differentiates Australian culture and values, not least in criminal activity as evidenced by Chopper Read and the current Melbourne gangland activities. --AYArktos 01:48, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

New category page created - Category: Australian crime figures --AYArktos 20:30, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My apologies. While I initially was unsure of creating a "mobster" category regarding international organized crime figures, as several others had already been created under that title, I thought it would be better to keep the categories consistant. If you feel the name itself is inapprpriate then please feel free to rename or redirect to another category. Again my apologies for the misunderstanding. 209.213.71.78 20:48, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)


text:
Pangkor Island

Pangkor Island (Pulau Pangkor; Tamil: பங்கோர் தீவு) is an island in Manjung District, Perak, Malaysia. It has a population of approximately 10,000. Nearby islands include Pangkor Laut Island, Giam Island, Mentagor Island, Simpan Island, and Tukun Terindak Island. The major industries of the island are tourism and fishing.

Geography
Pangkor Island has a land area of 18 km2 and is 3.5 km from Peninsular Malaysia. The interior of the island is forested and is home to 65 reptile species, 17 amphibian species, and 82 total herpetofaunal species. The locals are mainly Hokkien and Teochew Chinese, with Hokkien, Teochew and Mandarin Chinese the main dialects spoken.

History
Historically, Pangkor was a refuge for local fishers, merchants and pirates. In the 17th century, the Dutch built a fort to control the Perak tin trade, known as the Dutch Fort. In 1874, it was the location of a historical treaty between the British government and a contender for the Perak throne (the Pangkor Treaty), which began the British colonial domination of the Malay Peninsula. The old British name for the Pangkor Island group was the Dindings.

Batu Gong is a petroglyph (rock carving) of an unknown age located on a headland at Pantai Pasir Bogak depicting a gong, first mentioned by G. De. G Sieveking in the Asiatic society journal in 1951 is 100 cm in diameter and is oriented directly north.

A passenger jetty, located near Pasir Bogar, was completed in late 1959, costing RM 150,000.

In 2003, Marina Island (an artificial island) was developed by the Marina Island Group of companies and began operation in 2010, with private investment of RM250 million by 2013. The integrated mixed development resort island consists of waterfront residential properties, a new jetty (Marina Island Jetty), a private commercial marina called Pangkor Marina Malaysia, service apartments, hotels and shop offices. The jetty has a ferry service that connects to the island.

2004-2014 was a period of high growth and development for the island and the surrounding district. In 2006, a biotechnology centre, a joint venture of Global Hi-Q Malaysia S/B and Hi-Q Bio-Tech International (Taiwan) Ltd began operations with initial investments of 100 million ringgit (US$30 million). Their operations include fish farming and aquaculture, and the first harvest was in 2009.

Tourism
Following the Federal Government's move to grant the island duty-free status effective 1 January 2020, the island recorded a 40 percent increase in visitors. Manjung Municipal Council (MPM) recorded 1.42 million visitors to the island compared to 1.03 million in 2017.

Transport
Pangkor Island is a three-hour drive from Kuala Lumpur and is accessible through the Ipoh–Lumut 4-lane dual carriage highway and the West Coast Expressway. Buses frequently arrive at the main jetty in Lumut. No bridges connect the island to the mainland because a policy aimed to control the number of vehicles on the island to prevent road congestion.

Public ferries depart from Lumut to Pangkor Island from the old Lumut jetty. The ferry service stops at two jetties at the east side of Pangkor Island, Sungai Pinang Kecil; SPK jetty; and Pangkor Town Jetty.

There's new Ferry company from mainland to the Island which shorter path compare to regular ferry. It starts from Marina Bay. The fare little higher compare to regular ferry. Regular ferry from Lumut Jetty to Pangkor Island will take 30 to 40 minutes, while Marina Bay to Pangkor Island only take 15 to 20 minutes.

The island is served by Pangkor Airport through charter air service by Berjaya Air and scheduled airline service from Subang Airport by SKS Airways.

Notable places
The west coast of Pangkor is famous for its beaches, resorts and hotels for tourist accommodations. The famous beaches there include Pasir Bogak, Teluk Nipah and Coral Beach. The east coast of Pangkor is where all the residents live and where many of them work in the local foods and fisheries activities, including the dry fish factory, boat workshops, and a fish farm. Other attractions on the island include the Fu Ling Kong temple, the Sri Pathirakaliamman temple in Sungai Pinang Besar village; Batu Bersurat, Tiger Rock, the Dutch Fort (Kota Belanda), the tombs in Kampung Teluk Gedung and Tortoise Hill and Batu Gong.

Climate
Pangkor Island is situated off Malaysia's west coast and experiences hot and humid weather all year round. The rainy season runs from April - October, and the dry season is from October - April.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Pangkor Island


text: User talk:24.86.75.226

title: User talk:24.86.75.226


text:
User talk:CalveroTheFlame

Welcome to the Wikipedia
I noticed you were new, and wanted to share some links I thought useful:

 * Tutorial
 * Help desk
 * Foundation issues
 * Policy Library

For more information click  here . You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 07:51, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:CalveroTheFlame


text:
User talk:Cuti

Hi and welcome to wikipedia. I've noticed that you are copying a lot of material from the Cuti Malaysia website to wikipedia. However, unless you are the original author of this material and you grant permission to republish this on wikipedia under the GFDL (or other free license), it is a copyright violation according to the webpages currently at the Cuti Malaysia website so I have been removing the relevant text. If copyright has not been violated, please feel free to correct this yourself. Alex.tan 07:51, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Reply to Alex
Hi Alex,

Yes, we are the content owner of cuti.com.my and we are grant to promote Malaysia Tourism using Internet after our team have furnish 2nd phase of Malaysia tourism content.

 * Well, ok, but firstly, you should state that you do own the content, at least on your user page and possibly on each page that you blatantly copy across. Secondly, even if you do have authority to cut and paste it on wikipedia, the style of writing on cuti.com.my is not the same as that expected of an encyclopedia but it reads more like a travel guide (which it is). Perhaps you could rephrase the content to fit better here? Alex.tan 13:28, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Cuti


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Crusader warfare

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete CDC   (talk)  23:07, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Crusader warfare
Tagged for speedy deletion because "patent nonsense. This is such drivel - there are many, many better contributions about military. The name comes from bad journalism." It's not patent nonsense, because I understand it. The other things don't make it a speedy candidate. No vote. Kappa 07:52, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete DDerby 09:34, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - non-topic, reads like something out of a game manual. - Mustafaa 10:38, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge Redirect to Crusades. Radiant_* 14:14, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Nothing here worth adding to the Crusades article. Mwanner 11:54, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Would add nothing to Crusades. - Jpo 12:47, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. This article tries to generalise from certain historical events. It is simply inept sociology, not factual.--Doc Glasgow 14:50, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Patent nonsense. I originally put on it. Pavel Vozenilek 18:52, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete and create redirect to Crusades - no need to save this in the edit history. Dsmdgold 19:07, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
User talk:El C/OiHA

Worried
I have a concern about Kitty. You say his "power will be limited to an awe-inspiring figurehead," by which I'm forced to understand that OiHA is actually a cult. Before you deny this, be advised that I have substantial experience in exposing such, and will not hesitate to do so again. I earn my barnstars, unlike some. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:53, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * It's not a cult, it's Republic! Oh, wai...Your attitude greatly pleases me, and by pleases I mean sickens and fills me with much rage and fury! Of course, you do know that we will oversee your investigation fairly, and with no coersion, intimidation, blackmail, extortion, threats of bodily harm, or bribery whatsoever, never, ever. And to think your chances of joining the association were slim to none, Slim. For shame! I urge you, then, to file an IOU against OiHA, and let us handle our investigation of your lack of investigation internally. Really, it's for the best. El_C 08:20, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd like Join!
I'd like to join OiHA :)--198 04:37, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry, we're currently declining membership to those editors with a numerical value of 18 (no more, no less). Kitty 00:54, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * What the hell, Kitty? First we disallow members whose numerical value adds up to 18, what next, discrimination against felines? That is not cool. But you're the founder... Still, I want you to think about that rule, the purpose it serves, and the precedence it sets. For shame. El_C 01:00, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Man, you guys are slow cogitators, I guess. 198 could not have had membership declined, reclined, or inclined, for 18-itude; any true wise personage knows 198 is 9. Sheesh. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:01, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * If you join, I'll have to join too, because of the tagteam-cabal thing. Where's Jay? SlimVirgin (talk) 02:06, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Stop following me around. It makes us look bad. Besides, I didn't say I wanted to join; I just gave unsolicited criticism. Isn't that what talk pages are for? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:13, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh right, I'm being dumped now you've had your fill of me. Now that I'm making you "look bad." Be sure to let people know the Zionist tagteam's missing its prettiest member. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:25, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * People tell me I'm kinda cute too. Not "pretty", though. Well, sometimes. Eh, come on back. Tag's boring with only two players. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:41, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

WANTED
-- Sheriff a.n.o.n.y.m t 15:45, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:El C/OiHA


text: User talk:210.193.176.115

title: User talk:210.193.176.115


text:
User:Arlenthespecter

I read your note at John Kerry talk page. You are being accused there of vandalism. Please refrain from that. Go to my user page and you will find a link inviting you to leave me a message. I encourage you to avoid arguments and instead work for postive NPOV change. Rex071404  216.153.214.94 07:55, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User:Arlenthespecter


text:
Talk:Wolfgang Droege

Harper's head of security for Manning
Per http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/11/05/01929.html Current Canadian prime minister Steven Harper hired this man as security for Preston Manning. I'd like to see this worked into the article, as there are references for this all over the web. This reads..somewhat..sanitized.24.224.214.165 (talk) 22:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Untitled
One of the best men i have ever met in my life,Wolfgang Droege

 * You sad person.

A GOOD NAZI IS A DEAD NAZI!

Be careful, both of you! Indeed this man had the wrong ideas, but phrases as to wish someone's death are the begnning of all wars and other inter-human misery. Take care of what you say! That'll make you really distinguished from people like these!

Re: I'm not "wishing someone's death" but Droege was! Since he is dead now, it is better to hear the silence than hear these stupid things he said! And I think the world is better without him!

Add the template to this article?
Since this is a "current news item", I wonder if it would be a good idea to slap a tag on this item while more details of his death (and, in some cases, his life) come to the surface? --Deathphoenix 15:31, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Not really, I don't think. Droege's nefarious record is well-known, and I doubt that anything new about him will come to light. The current story is about his murder, and it doesn't look as though it'll be a particularly interesting case. Kelisi 03:13, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * That's fine. Articles often get more interest when they become the subject of current news, including mine (though it's not good that I immediately thought to take a look here when I first heard the news). When I thought about it after I made the above post, it's rare that gets tacked onto a biography anyway. --Deathphoenix 04:21, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I came here immediately after seeing the newscast, and saw nothing had been updated. So I added the info myself, although even the news items on the internet were scarce at that point only hours afte r the incident. TimothyPilgrim 17:23, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

This issues, this Droege kind of person... they are so alien and strange to me... and then, having noticed his death in Wikinews and reading about him, how bizarre... I'm kind of thinking not to watch TV murder/suspense/police series nor cinema, because your North American events are better cliffhangers. BTW, I would hope Droege rots in hell, but I should hope God has mercy on his soul... DDaniel

Funny. You "champions of freedom" and peace loving so and so's ...... never met the man, but quick to wish his soul to "rot in hell". This sort of talk will come back to you 100fold. You are guilty of what you claim this man is. Perhaps you should have asked the man himself before hanging him. He was very intelligent, more than he was given credit for. Be kind, we're all fighting our own battles! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.69.36.201 (talk) 16:43, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Daniel, sadly, this kind of person appears in all societies. It seems that it was a "crime of passion", somthing that also occurs in all societies. I don't think that there was much about this that had to do specifically with canada or with North America. Ground Zero 21:26, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Has wikipedia news become a tabloid? This has no place as a news item. --82.33.200.49 17:37, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Categories
I'm not going to delete it as I don't know much about him, but the category "Canadian terrorists" doesn't seem to apply, based on what's currently in the article; Canadian criminals seems sufficient. MisfitToys 19:07, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Isn't being sentenced to prison for plotting to violently take over a foreign country pretty close to the mark? Samaritan 03:41, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I submit that the facts and neutrality of this article on the Mr. Droege should be disputed. The article was largely edited by [name deleted], who is known to be personally antagonistic towards anyone on the opposite end of the political spectrum.

Furthermore, "Exposés" written by professional anti-racist Matthew Lauder are not neutral and reliable sources (the Dominica article). Lauder is known to be involved with Anti-Racist Action and has repeatedly made defamatory and libellous statements about members of right-wing political groups. Dogmatic 16:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

 * The authorship of the article cannot be used as proof of inaccuracy or POV. CJCurrie 19:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Lauder was not the only source of the Dominica article, and his membership in ARA (if true) is not sufficient proof of inaccuracy or POV. CJCurrie 19:44, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Wolfgang Droege


text:
User talk:Arbor/minor

Genealogy
Needs cleanup. Dates are speculation and may be off by one year.

? Gerold ‘White Bull’ †284

Leyton Rhea Florent Alerie Mace Tyrell

 (House Tyrell)

Baelor ‘Brightsmile’ Lynesse 288 Jorah Mormont  [other sons]

title: User talk:Arbor/minor


text:
Bill Ash

William Franklin Ash MBE (30 November 1917 – 26 April 2014) was an American-born British writer, broadcaster and Marxist, who served as a fighter pilot with the Royal Canadian Air Force in World War II. He was shot down, made a prisoner of war, and was noted as an escaper.

Early life
Born into a lower-middle-class family in Dallas, Texas, Ash was a migrant worker during the U.S. Great Depression, and graduated from the University of Texas with a BA degree, writing privileged pupils' essays to gain money and also for his personal development as an author. Around this time, the Spanish Civil War broke out, and the largely apolitical Ash, driven by a hatred of bullies and fascism, decided that if the war was still going when he turned 21, being old enough to fight, he would join the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.

World War II service
Ash enlisted in the Royal Canadian Air Force at Windsor, Ontario, on 22 June 1940. He did his basic training at No.1 Initial Training School from 20 July 1940, and he was promoted to leading aircraftman on graduation on 14 October 1940. Having been accepted for pilot training, Ash was posted to No.12 Elementary Flying Training School, from where he graduated on 30 November 1940. Posted to No. 31 Service Flying Training School, he learned to fly single-engine fighters. On graduation, he was commissioned on 25 March 1941. Ash was assigned to Embarkation Depot on 3 April 1941 for the voyage to England, where he completed a period with Operational Training Unit before joining No. 411 Squadron RCAF. He flew Spitfires in many defensive and offensive missions, including an attack on the German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. In 1942, he flew in "Big Wing" fighter sweeps over France with No. 411 Squadron RCAF.

Prisoner of war
On one of these missions to attack Comines Power Station on 24 March 1942, flying Supermarine Spitfire Mark Vb (serial number "AB281") from RAF Hornchurch, Ash was one of three of the squadron's pilots shot down by Jagdgeschwader 26 he crash-landed at Vieille-Église, about 15 miles from Calais, and was smuggled by the French Resistance to Lille and onward to Paris. He was arrested in Paris at the end of May 1942 and imprisoned at Oflag XXI-B, Szubin. In September 1942, he exchanged identities with an army private and joined a fatigue party, from which he escaped, only to be recaptured the same night. In the spring of 1943, Flight Lieutenant Ash and 32 others escaped from Oflag XXI-B through the latrine tunnel with Harry Day and Peter Stevens. With a companion, he tried to reach Warsaw, but was recaptured four days later. Shortly afterwards, he was transferred to Stalag Luft III, Sagan, where he was an active member of the escape committee. For the next 21 months, when other ranks were being transferred from Sagan to Stalag Luft VI, Heydekrug, Ash changed his identity and accompanied them. Under his direction a tunnel was later made for a mass escape, but the tunnel was discovered when 10 prisoners had got away. Ash continued the attempt and eventually gained his freedom. He boarded a goods train for Kovno, but was discovered by station guards and returned to Sagan.

His de-briefing after liberation from captivity in April 1945 records the places where he was imprisoned as Dulag Luft (Oberusel) for about three days in June 1942, then Stalag Luft III at Sagan from June to September 1942 Oflag XXI-B (Schubin), where he was held from September 1942 to April 1943, back to Stalag Luft III for April and May 1943, and then Stalag Luft VI (Heydekrug) from May to August 1943 before return to Stalag Luft III for the period August 1943 to January 1945 and finally the naval camp Marlag Milag Nord at Westertimke from January to April 1945.

Ash was reportedly twice sentenced to death as a spy. On one of these occasions the Luftwaffe successfully argued that they should have custody of Ash because he was an airman, thereby taking him from the Gestapo who had sentenced him to death.

On 17 May 1946, Ash was appointed Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE) for his escaping activities. He ended the war as a flight lieutenant.

In August 2015, the BBC reported: "When Ash died aged 96 last year his obituaries noted that he was said to have been the model for Virgil Hilts, the lean, leather-jacketed airman played by Steve McQueen in the 1963 film The Great Escape". The character Hilts, nicknamed "The Cooler King" because of the time he spends in the prison camp's punishment block (which the prisoners call "the cooler") for his persistent escape attempts, steals a motorbike and tries to escape to Switzerland but is caught while using it to jump barbed-wire barricades. The BBC report noted that "Ash modestly denied the claim. For one thing he didn't ride a motorbike, he said. For another, he did not take part in the breakout from the Stalag Luft III camp, on which the movie is based. But the reason he did not participate is that he was locked up in the 'cooler' […] as punishment for another escape attempt".

In Britain
Demobilised back in England at war's end, Ash discovered that the act of "taking the King's shilling" in 1939 had robbed him of his US citizenship and that he was now a stateless person. He acquired British citizenship and went up to Balliol College, Oxford, on a veteran's scholarship, to read PPE. He then joined the BBC, working alongside a young Tony Benn, who became a lifelong friend. Sent to India as the Corporation's main representative on the subcontinent, Ash was influenced by Nehru's brand of socialism, and by the time he returned to Britain in the late 1950s his politics had solidified into a hard-boiled Marxism. He became involved in left-wing "street politics", including the post-war anti-fascist movement, but his late-blooming revolutionary tendencies eventually proved too much for the BBC, which fired him – though he managed to cling on to freelance employment in the radio drama department as a script reader.

Beginning in the 1960s, Ash wrote a series of novels, including Choice of Arms and Ride a Paper Tiger. Politics, however, remained his chief interest. Finding him too quirky and individualistic, the Communist Party rejected his application for membership, and he co-founded the Communist Party of Britain (Marxist–Leninist). He also brought his academic background to bear on the subject, publishing a study entitled Marxist Morality. In later life Ash served for several years as chairman of the Writers' Guild of Great Britain and helped to encourage young writers through his work as a script reader for BBC Radio and later as literary manager at the Soho Theatre. His book The Way to Write Radio Drama remained the best on the subject for more than 20 years. Later, he was able to work as a freelancer for the BBC's radio drama department as a script reader.

He died at the age of 96 in London on 26 April 2014.

Personal life
Ash's first marriage, in 1946 to Patricia Rambault – with whom he had a son and a daughter – was dissolved. In 1955 he married his second wife, Ranjana Sidhanta (1924–2015).

Fiction

 * The Lotus in the Sky (1961), London: Hutchinson,
 * Choice of Arms (1962), London: Hutchinson,
 * The Longest Way Round (1963), London: Hutchinson,
 * Ride a Paper Tiger (1969), New York: Walker,
 * Take-Off (1970), New York: Walker,
 * Incorporated (1980), Brighton: Harvester Press, ISBN 9780855273187,
 * Right Side Up (1984), London: Howard Baker, ISBN 9780703002662,
 * Bold Riot. G. Mann, 1992. ISBN 9780704102484,
 * What's the Big Idea (993), Bristol: George Mann,
 * But My Fist is Free (1997), Maidstone Mann, ISBN 9780704102651,
 * Rise Like Lions (1998), Maidstone Mann, ISBN 9780704102712,
 * Heroes In The Evening Mist (2018), New Internationalist, ISBN 9781780264738

Non-fiction

 * Marxism and Moral Concepts (1964), New York: Monthly Review Press.
 * Pickaxe and Rifle : the Story of the Albanian People (1974), London: Howard Baker ISBN 9780703000392,
 * Morals and Politics : the Ethics of Revolution (1977), London/Boston: Routledge & Kegan Paul ISBN 0-7100-8558-3
 * A Red Square, The Autobiography of an Unconventional Revolutionary (1978), London: Howard Baker, ISBN 0-7030-0157-4
 * Marxist Morality (1988), London: Howard Baker Press Ltd, ISBN 978-0703003133
 * Under the Wire: The Wartime Memoir of a Spitfire Pilot, Legendary Escape Artist, Cooler King (with Brendan Foley) (2005), hardback Bantam Press, ISBN 0-593-05408-3
 * Workers' Politics, the Ethics of Socialism (1998; 2007), Aakar Books, India, ISBN 9780954211264,

About William Ash's novels

 * Doug Nicholls, Class Writer, An Introduction to the Novels of William Ash (2002), Coventry: Bread Books, ISBN 0-9542112-1-9

title: Bill Ash


text:
Oha Suta

Oha Suta (おはスタ) is a Japanese children's breakfast television show. Produced by Shogakukan-Shueisha Productions (ShoPro) for TV Tokyo, the show airs on TX Network (TXN). It premiered in 1997 as a relaunch of (おはようスタジオ. Sutajio is a loanword from English word "studio"), which originally ran from 2 April 1979 to 27 June 1986 on what is now TXN; the title of this revival, Oha Suta, comes from the portmanteau of the original Ohayō Studio.

Cast

 * Subaru Kimura

Oha Girls

 * Oha Girl Apple (おはガールアップル, July 1998 - September 1998)
 * Oha Girl Banana (おはガールバナナ, October 1998 - March 1999)
 * Oha Girl Citrus (おはガールシトラス, April 1999 - March 2000)
 * Oha Girl Cherry (おはガールチェリー, April 1999 - March 2000)
 * Oha Girl Grape (おはガールグレープ, April 2001 - March 2002)
 * Oha Girl Fruitpunch (おはガールフルーツポンチ, April 2002 - March 2003)
 * Oha Girl Starfruit (おはガールスターフルーツ, April 2003 - March 2004)
 * Oha Girl Starfruit 2 (おはガールスターフルー2, April 2004 - March 2005)
 * Oha Girl Candy Mint (おはガールキャンディミント, April 2005 - March 2007)
 * Oha Girl 2007-2008 (おはガール, April 2007 - March 2008)
 * Oha Girl 2008-2009 (おはガール, April 2008 - March 2009)
 * Oha Girl 2009-2010 (おはガール, April 2009 - March 2010)
 * Oha Girl Maple (おはガールメープル, April 2010 - March 2012)
 * Oha Girl Chu! Chu! Chu! (おはガールちゅ！ちゅ！ちゅ！, April 2012 - March 2014)
 * Oha Girl 2015 - 2017 (おはガール, April 2015 - September 2017)
 * Oha Girl 2017 - 2019 (おはガール, October 2017 - September 2019)
 * Oha Girl From Girls² (おはガール From Girls², April 2019 – October 2021)
 * Oha Girl From Lucky² (おはガール From Lucky², October 2021 – March 2022)
 * Shin Oha Girl (シン・おはガール, April 2022 – March 2024)
 * Oha Kids (おはキッズ, April 2024)

title: Oha Suta


text:
Concordia Piotrków Trybunalski

Concordia Piotrków Trybunalski is a football club based in Piotrków Trybunalski, Poland. Concordia was established in 1909, and is the sixth oldest Polish football club in existence.

In 2015, its membership in the Łódź Football Association was revoked, and it doesn't currently compete in any competition. A phoenix club, UKS Concordia 1909, was founded in 2014. As of May 2024, it plays in the Piotrków Trybunalski group of the regional league, but it is not considered a legal successor of the original Concordia.

title: Concordia Piotrków Trybunalski


text:
Feathered thorn

The feathered thorn (Colotois pennaria) is a moth of the family Geometridae. It was first described by Carl Linnaeus in 1761.

Etymology
The common name derives from the very strong feathering on the antennae of the male. Also the species name pennaria derives from the Latin suffix aria – meaning "related to or connected with" – at the end of the Latin word penna meaning "feather".

Description
The forewings of this species are basically brown but individuals vary greatly in tone from drab light brown to much richer reddish tones. They are usually marked with two dark fascia and a small discal spot but these features can be faint or almost absent. The hindwings are lighter buffish brown. The wingspan is 46–50 mm, the males being usually larger and broader-winged than the females. Prout describes the aberrations The females tend to be rather sluggish but the males fly actively at night and are attracted to light. The species is on the wing from September to November. The egg is olive-green with a ring of pale specks round the micropylar end; laid in a cluster on a twig, hibernating.The caterpillar is hairless, brown or purplish grey with ochreous spots and purplish grey with ochreous spots with reddish anal points.It is twig-like  and reaches a length of up to 50 mm. It  can be found from May to July feeding mainly at night on a variety of trees and shrubs (see list below). The species overwinters as an egg.

 * 1)  The flight season refers to the British Isles. This may vary in other parts of the range.

Distribution
This species can be found throughout Europe and the Near East to the Caucasus and east to Sakhalin, Amur, Primorye, Korea, Japan (as subspecies ussuriensis).

Habitat
Found in mainly deciduous and mixed forests, and in large gardens.

Subspecies

 * Colotois pennaria paupera (Linnaeus, 1761)
 * Colotois pennaria pennaria Hausmann, 1995 Endemic in Cyprus.
 * Colotois pennaria ussuriensis Bang-Haas, 1927

title: Feathered thorn


text:
Taro Chiezo

Taro Chiezo (千恵藏 太郎 Chiezō Tarō) is a Japanese artist based in Manhattan. His works include SuperLambBanana, a sculpture in Liverpool, England of a Lamb with its back as a banana.

In 1998, Taro Chiezo created the original ‘Superlambanana’ monument in Liverpool using city history of the docks combined with the bananas and cargo ships.

title: Taro Chiezo


text: User talk:213.124.106.227

title: User talk:213.124.106.227


text:
User talk:-Cerberus

Copyright problems with Imaginary Heroes.jpg
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If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot (talk) 17:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:-Cerberus


text:
User talk:Sarpicaste

Welcome to the Wikipedia
I noticed you were new, and wanted to share some links I thought useful:

 * Tutorial
 * Help desk
 * Foundation issues
 * Policy Library

For more information click  here . You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 08:05, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Looking for articles to work on?
Hello, Sarpicaste. I'm SuggestBot, a Wikipedia bot that helps new members contribute to Wikipedia. You might like to edit these articles I picked for you based on things you've edited in the past. Check it out -- I hope you find it useful. -- SuggestBot 14:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Linking policy
Please do not add commercial links (or links to your own private websites) to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. You are, however, encouraged to add content instead of links to the encyclopedia. See the welcome page to learn more. Thanks. -Loren 04:32, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sarpicaste


text:
Talk:Supranational union

=Supranationalism=

Initial Section

 * This section had previously been located before the table of contents. Adavis444 (talk) 04:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I have edited the main page to make it reflect Supranationalism in the dictionary sense of the word. I have also emphasised the European Debate, and placed Weiler's theory at the bottom. Will 12:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much Will --Ysangkok 18:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I have edited the page to make it have a better layout. I added boldness on line one, and I added a definition list. --Ysangkok 18:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much Ysangkok --Ysangkok 18:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Ysangkok, it looks much better. Will 09:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Supranationalism and confederation
...What's the difference?--87.64.24.4 01:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The whole article is not about supranationalism but the EU. Supranationalism doesn't mean multinational representational government. Also, it has been used to define something more akin to pan-nationalism, only as a theory of state creation as opposed to a description of a particular (interstate nationalist) movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Livingwords (talk • contribs) 20:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I have added material from Robert Schuman, Prime Minister of France, who wrote a book on the subject and initiated the European Community. He also gave many speeches about the subject defining the various aspects, political, economic, governmental, theological, philosophical and historical. It seems to me important to define how democratic supranational communities work in theory, then in practice before describing realities, distortions and poor copies of the European experience which brought war to an end after some 2000+ years of continual warfare.

Non-democratic Supranationalism was used as a term for occult globalism but I have avoided adding the extensive material on this. 2009David (talk) 14:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

NPOV on EU
The editors involved in this article clearly adopt the point of view of Weiler that the EU is not true supranational body. Although there are arguments to be made these arguments are however brought across in a judgemental way. Only one reference (Weiler) is given and the much other academics, and the some academics who see EU as supranational are not named. Choice of words (paradox, deficit) is not NPOV and leads to a conclusion that is either original research, or an opinion. This section needs a lot of work Arnoutf 13:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I completely agree to the criticism raised. Following the link to the article Joseph_H._H._Weiler, the neutrality of which is also disputed (as it celebrates the person), I got the impression that an outsider position is over-emphasized. The vast majority of academics clearly view the EU as a supranational body. Furthermore, the arguments contained in the article are neither convincing nor logical. The mere fact that one part of the legislature, the Council, consists of members of governments of members can also be found in many federal states, as e.g. in the German Bundesrat. DanSchultz 12:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Supranationalism in other parts of the world
Information about supranationalism in other parts of the world, e.g. South America, is missing. DanSchultz 12:31, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Supranational identity
Should there be some information on the social aspects of supranationalism, or do you think it's best to keep it at the political definition? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.174.128.134 (talk) 09:06, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Supranationalism and Federalisation
[I dont cite sources, since I am just discussing informally and rapidly here. But it is concerns the EU, Europe and the very concept and definition of the topic Supra-nationalism.]

Obviously, the term Supranationalism was introduced in the treaty of Rome, as described in the article. However, for what it looks like from where I am sitting, the entire EU project aims at creating the United States of Europe, that is, a Federal State, although multicultural.

Supranationalism and Intergovernmentalism are only vehicles for this historical aim.

For instance the (Pre - Lisbon Treaty) Intergovernmental, Council of Ministers seemed to be a direct copy of the German Bundesrat, which works pretty much as the Council of Ministers but in the Federal Republic of Germany. Now the German Bundesrat is a legislative body in its federation, so, why should not the EU, with such Council of ministers be considered a federation? (Another aspect is that the German Bundesrat, in my opinion, is a way bad construction compared to the U.S Senate, but that is another discussion.)

The main reason for the EU being supranational and not federal is that it consists of National States, unlike the USA which is a federal structure consisting of 50 states but with one single American culture. No state in America is culturally lesser American than any other state. Hence, Puerto Rico was never allowed statehood, and is so far bullied for its ethnic and cultural composition, my opinion -but nevertheless true. Is the relation between Puerto Rico and the Union of the Fifty States (USA) considered a Supranational relation? Puerto Ricans are union citizens (USA) after all.

Now, my point with Supranationalism vs. Federalism is that Europe consists of several nations. A nation, in my belief, is the combination of a state and its culture. That is, the USA consists of 50 states but only one American culture. The general concept of A Nation is intertwinned with its culture and its organised society, its "state". This is a European invention from the 19th century and we may call it "nationalism".

Now, since the nature of nationalism led to the five world wars (including those three in the 19th century, the 1800s), the Europeans obviously realized that the American union of sovereign states (USA) was a good idea. After all, the US federal system is modeled after the old European dreams and ideas of peaceful coexistence. But it was never realized in Europe due to nationalism. Instead it was implemented in the monocultural America: "when the West was won" by American nationalism.

That is, it was fairly easy to create a "National" federal structure in the old british territories of America since it was one culture. That is, it was easy compared to the challenges of unifying Europe since Europe consists of not only several states, legal jurisdictions, but also several cultures, that is: any European Federal State will always be Supranational, since it indeed is multi-cultural.

What really would happen with further federalisation of Europe would be the creation of the first Supranational state since the Roman Empire. The term National and Nation will in this manner not neccessarily mean the highest soverign entity under international law. Once again, Europe leads the way, and is creating a completely new concept of an independent sovereign state: the Supranational State, or Multinational Federal State.

Now, to be really bold, but it deserves to be mentioned in the context of Supra-nationalism, What actually happened in America, when "The WEST was won" was pretty much what would have happened in Europe if the Germans had won WWII. All Europe would have spoken German, just as all Americans speak English today. That, dear reader, is the danger of nationalism and monoculturalism. Europeans invented it and spread it to America.

So the differences between the European Supra-nationalism and American Federalism is that Americans have never had nationalism on the state level as is the case in Europe. Well, California was purchased from Mexico on the premise that it would keep its Spanish culture, the result being that all street and city names remain intact - but nevertheless the culture turned American until the recent immigration once again set its mark on the western-most states. Official languages is still English though due to the National monoculturalism of America.

Now, that does not mean that European Supra-nationalism cannot turn into a fully fledged federation: the United States of Europe. But if so, the cultural dimension of the member states will always be preserved in a truly multinational federal entity. With one culture for each state of the union.

This is pretty much already the case since the main differences between the European Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty is that the insignia of a nation was left out in the Lisbon Treaty: the anthem, the flag, the national day of Europe (9 may).

Nevertheless, the other insignia of a federal Europe IS present: The European Supreme court which can overrule "national" Supreme courts, the dual legislative assemblies of the union population and the union states which make up 50 % of all the member state legislation, the executive commision that proposes laws to legislators. The common currency, the four freedoms, the common foreign policy. The European FBI. And the EU armed forces which is the Nato alliance which can be reflagged to EU flag whenever neccessary according to the Berlin Plus deal between the EU and "the Old Alliance". The EU is gradually taking over the Old Alliance.

The EU is a legal body consisting of its member states and can as such turn into a country when the time is ready. The EU is on its way of becomming a multicultural, democratic European Federation. Indeed supra-national.

The shift is semantic and historic: a nation does not need to mean "country" anymore. A supa-national entity such as the EU could in the future as well mean "country".

What is otherwise interesting to point out is the relation of the EEA countries, such as Norway, to the European Union, and to compare it with the relation of Puerto Rico to the United States. Norway is not a member of the European Union but nevertheless enacts all its laws by free will to facilitate trade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.176.227.250 (talk) 02:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I am not sure what you are suggesting, as regards the article.--Boson (talk) 05:22, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

=Supranational union= Some interesting material on constitutions of supranational unions which might be included in this article or an associated one at some point.
 * -Mork the delayer 08:05, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite
Since this article has, apparently, been completely unreferenced since 2004 and has had a rewrite tag since May 2008, I have decided to be bold and attempt a rewrite based on available sources (initially concentrating on content rather than style). I may leave some of the unsourced material, where I have not yet found suitable sources; so more work may be necessary. I am attempting to deal with the various concerns raised, so I will remove the various tags, which I had previously consolidated under "article issues". --Boson (talk) 10:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

"Confederation"
I object to the use of the word "confederation" in the opening sentence, surely a Federal Europe would still be a supranational union? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acamdc88 (talk • contribs) 05:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Supranational and multilateralism
Merging these topics would be a bad idea. The concepts are distinct because supranational means that political power is passed to an organization/a body beyond the nation state. On the other hand, nation states are very capable of acting multilaterally without ceding any political power to an organization beyond the nation states. BartBee (talk) 17:32, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

 * I agree. It is very important to identify actors - legislatures - appropriately. A Supranational Union has a distinct-body (ex. PACE) that legislates and holds authority over domestic and federal actors. In multilateral system (NATO, IMF) Federal actors hold authority of the decisions made (more so in NATO...) Nevertheless, this seems to be a point of contention when trying to homogenize the concepts of multilateralism and supranationalism. Reddevil1421 (talk) 20:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

 * I agree with the statements above - a supranational union is a definite entity whreas multilateralism is a concept and is a broader subject than can be defined in the Supranational union article. As there has been no movement on the merging issue for nearly 2 years I will remove the merge tag from both Supranational union and multilateralism articles. Zangar (talk) 16:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Supranational union